A29395	----	Some reasons why Robert Bridgman, and his wife, and some others in Hvntington-shire, have left the society of the people called Quakers, and have join'd in communion with the Church of England and some passages contained in a letter of George Whitehead to R.J., and R. Bridgman's reply to the same / by Robert Bridgman. Bridgman, Robert. 1700 Approx. 31 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A29395 Wing B4494 ESTC R18987 12876895 ocm 12876895 94854 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A29395) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 94854) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 731:31) Some reasons why Robert Bridgman, and his wife, and some others in Hvntington-shire, have left the society of the people called Quakers, and have join'd in communion with the Church of England and some passages contained in a letter of George Whitehead to R.J., and R. Bridgman's reply to the same / by Robert Bridgman. Bridgman, Robert. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 21, [2] p. Printed for Brab. Aylmer ..., and Char. Brome ..., London : 1700. Errata: p. 21. Advertisement: p. [1]-[2] at end. Half title: Robert Bridgman's reasons for leaving the Quakers. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion SOME REASONS WHY Robert Bridgman , and his Wife , And some others in HUNTINGTON-SHIRE , Have left the Society of the People called QUAKERS , AND Have join'd in Communion with the Church of ENGLAND . And some Passages contained in a Letter of George Whitehead to R. J. and R. Bridgman's Reply to the same . By ROBERT BRIDGMAN , LONDON : Printed for Brab . Aylmer at the Three Pigeons over-against the Royal Exchange in Cornhil , and Char. Brome at the Gun at the West-end of St. Paul's Church-yard . MDCC . ROBERT BRIDGMAN's REASONS For Leaving the QUAKERS . SOME REASONS WHY ROBERT BRIDGMAN , and others , Have left the QUAKERS . IT has been matter of Sorrow and Shame unto me , and many others , that have now left the Quakers Communion , that we so long professed the Christian Religion , whilst we remained so ignorant of the fundamental Principles of it , the Doctrine of the Trinity , or three Persons of one Nature and Substance in the Godhead . The Incarnation of the second Person or Son of God our Lord Jesus Christ. The Satisfaction and Atonement made unto God the Father , by his Obedience and Death upon the Cross. The Resurrection and Ascention of his Body and Person into Heaven . His remaining in our Nature at the right hand of God , in the Glory of his Father , our Head , High-Priest and Intercessour . The Faith and full persuasion of his second , last , and outward appearance and coming again to raise the Dead Bodys of the Saints , and of all Men in the great Day and solemn Assize of all Nations , in which an Infallible and final Sentence will be passed upon all , according to the Deeds done in the Body , agreeable to the plain and positive sense of divers Texts in Holy Scripture . These Doctrines and the Faith of them , wrought by the Operation of the Holy Ghost , the third Person in the Blessed Trinity , are Essential or Fundamental Parts and Principles of the Christian Religion , without which , in the true Faith of them , we cannot be saved in this or in the World to come . And therefore 't is of great Weight and Consequence , yea of the greatest Importance , to every one under a Christian Profession , to be duly Instructed and rightly Informed , in these great and necessary Truths of the Christian Religion , and without which , in some good measure , no Man can be rightly denominated a Christian Man or Believer . The Faith of God as a Great and Mercyful Creator and the Seal of his Power and Providence in and over all his Creatures , is indeed a necessary work , and our Love and Obedience to the Law and Light with which he instructs and enlightens our Nature , is a pretious and necessary condition on our parts , to sit and prepare us for the due reception of the Christian Faith ; and indeed without some experience of this sort , 't is in vain to pretend to any Religion , much more to the Christian Religion . Yet the order and progress of our Faith and Hope ought to be duly distinguished , for to reduce all Religion and Faith towards God , under a Profession and Experience of Light and Truth , without any distinction of common and special Illumination or Grace , is dangerous to the Soul and very destructive to the real Foundation of the Christian Religion . How far the People call'd Quakers in general , and some of their most noted and approved Authors and Ministers in particular , have Ignorantly and Blasphemously opposed this work of Faith and Reformation ( begun and carried on in the Souls of many , by hearing the Word and Doctrine of the Gospel declared in the Holy Scriptures , from Men qualified to Read and Expound the same ) is now become so evident to such whose Eyes the Lord in Mercy hath opened , that to contradict or deny it , must bespeak very great Ignorance or Obstinacy . How far they have withstood and rejected the Institutions of our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ , in the due administration of them , and the sincere and faithful practise of such as are convinced of their Duty and Profit in receiving them , is also as evident to such as have had occasion to deal with them , or peruse their Writings constantly published from their beginning . And how under pretence of higher Attainments and farther Glory , a Spirit of Pride and great Uncharitableness hath possessed them , is sufficiently manifest by its fruits , in Censuring and Reproaching all other denominations of Professed Christians , whom they set to a great distance , and account as the World which yet lieth in Wickedness . And by a shew of Spirituality , Simplicity , Humility and Patience , have deceived themselves , and many of the most ignorant and inadvertent Professors , who inconsiderately and rashly conclude , they are the most holy and reformed People and Church of God , because they appear in a more sedate , retired , and self denying manner , as a Society and Body of People , than generally is observed of other Societies . But whoever arrives to any tolerable understanding of sound Christian Principles , and attends an impartial Examination of what the Quakers preach and publish , shall not only find them very disagreeable one with another , but , in general very opposite to true Christianity . And that which also very much exposeth them to contempt with all True Intelligent and Religious minds , is the liberty they take in their Apologies and Defences to quible and shuffle with dull and apparent Sophistry . 'T is now become their repeated Practise to alter the sense of their own as well as their Opponents writings , by adding or diminishing of words , by Transposing them , by playing upon such as are equivocal , by connecting Matter that lies disjoynted , and disjoynting Matter that lies connected , by questioning the autography of their own Prints , when they cannot otherwise vindicate or defend them . And thus they inherit the Jesuites practice ( ' tho through want of their Education they fall short in their skill ) and by this very means ruine their Cause , notwithstanding their Zeal and specious Pretences . 'T is a mercyful Providence so many are delivered from the snare of their Spirit , which with soundings and Echoes works on the Imagination and Fancy of the more Ignorant and Credulous . Did they regard Truth and Justice , without respecting Persons in Judgment , they would have never declined to be brought to the Test , before any competent number of Sober and Judicious Persons , without making such Pleas and Pretences to excuse , and be excused as they have done . Being detected , they became greatly inraged , and breath out their spite in Prophecies and Curses , both in private and publick , against such as oppose them ; whilst they are blessing and magnifying themselves and their Faction in such flights of Devotion as allarms and amuzes the Ignorant and Unwary . The account given by George Keith in his Books and Narratives of Matter of Fact , so well attested , is such a Load upon them , that they are very uneasie ; and not daring to appear to justifie themselves , are labouring to abuse and misrepresent him . They have endeavoured to insinuate , that Covetousness , Pride and Envy are the motive of his practice : An Apostate , a Judas , a Renegado , are the Epithets they bestow upon him . And in their Word to the Well-inclin'd , represent him the Epitome and very Common-place of all the Malice of their preceding Adversaries : And these fine Characters they industriously spread throughout the Nation , to defame and reproach him ; having a method effectually to do it , by spreading their Pamphlets according to an agreement of their Yearly Meeting , ( which is their supreme Authority in this and in other Kingdoms and Countries where they have any settled Interest . ) The Agreement and Order of their Yearly Meeting held in London the first , second , third and fourth Days of June 1691 , and directed to the Quarterly and Monthly Meetings in England , and Wales , and elsewhere , was and is . That each Monthly Meeting ( of which they had at that time about 150 ) in England and Wales ( and since , no doubt , the number is greatly increased ) was to take off two Books of a sort , when both do not exceed the price of a Shilling , and to be sent by the several Correspondents in London ( or their Order ) to the Correspondents of each County , who are to send up the Money out of their Meeting Stock ; which sufficiently encourages both the Author and Printer . And this Agreement and Order was expresly made for the spreading their Books , as is more at large declared in their Yearly Meeting Paper , printed in the Year 1691. And thus they are encouraged to be continually scribling , and judge it to be ( as they say in their Word to the well-inclin'd ) the fairer , more substantial and edifying method . But the misery that attends their numerous Proselytes , is the impressions they are under in partiality and prejudice ; what is published by their Party passes for Truth , and that not only in Doctrine and Fact , but they conceive a peculiar presence of God is a continual Blessing that accompanies them . The same conceit they have in all they say and do , and are generally so affected with a Relish and Savour of it , that puffs them up with intolerable Pride , even whilst it appears to themselves under a Disguise of Humility . But true Humility is another thing , it submits to Truth where-ever , whenever and in whomsoever it appears , inlarging the Heart with Catholick Love , which like the attracting and bountiful Heaven , scatters its Dew on every Soyl , and maintains its correspondence with an impartial influence . The Lord in Mercy increase this Vertue , and inable the sincere in all persuasions to let go the shackles of their several singularities , looking up unto Jesus the universal Head and Captain of their Salvation , who by his blessed and Holy Spirit is sprinkling the Nations through the Faith of his Gospel , and that without respect of persons . And therefore let me beseech such of my Friends , as profess their Faith in a Crucified Jesus , and in humility submit to the means he has appointed as the Seals of his Covenant , and Symbols of his Presence , to be very careful in all manner of Conversation , that so the Adversary , who seeks many ways to undermine and lay waste the Foundation and Pillars of the Christian Religion , may be stop'd every way in which he appears . The greatest reproach that at this time attends the Christian Church , is a loose Conversation in too many not season'd with Grace and the fear of God ? and this is the Ground and Plea of all Schismaticks , as well as it is the Air that infests the Atheist , who secretly concludes , because of such Liberty , there is not a God of such Purity and Power , as the Christians profess in their verbal Confession . But this I can say from a good and comfortable experience , That there are many pious and heavenly-minded Souls , in several places , both Ministers and People , that are as Lights , and as Salt , in their several Stations , though once I could hardly believe it , so much Filth and Dirt having been cast upon them by an ignorant , proud and obstinate Generation of Men ; whose feigned Simplicity and Humility , under a pretence of Subjection to a Power above the Magistrate , is very delusive in the Appearance of it , but when duly examined proves chiefly the Fruit of Education and Humour . Being taught and persuaded , that Reasoning is dangerous in things of Religion , they stop their Ears and close their Eyes , until by degrees they grow hardy in Imagination and Fancy , in the strength of which they have been suffered to proceed until their own Folly hath corrected them . Whoever comes to a sober mind , and attentively , reads over the History given by George Fox and his Delegates , in the Entrance of his Journal , may readily find , that an ignorant Education and Melancholly Temper , impressed and blown up by a Spirit of Enthusiasm , gave birth to his Faction in those Hurricane Times ( whilst the Church lay despoyled of her Power and Privileges ) and since that inundation of Heresie and Schism , the Breach has remaiued too much unobserved : And to my Understanding no better Expedient can readily be proposed to heal up this Breach and recover the Wasts , than a laborious and diligent instruction of Youth , and detecting of Errour , by open and free Conferences judiciously managed in divers parts of the Nation . T is a lamentable thing , that in a Christian Nation the publick Seals and Badges of its Communion should be so slighted , neglected , opposed and rejected by a sort and number of men that will not be accountable in Matter of Fact for their Mistakes and Abuses . 'T is a most lame and scandalous Insinuation against the Institution and Practice of Outward Baptism , which George Whitehead advances in his Rector Examined , p. 27. saying , When this Rector ( meaning Mr. Merriton ) can demonstrate a Probatum est , of such Virtue in that poor Element ( as he calls it ) of Water-baptism , as to cure polluted and distemper'd Souls , as if the Issue or Effect of a means that is prescribed , must determine the right or lawfulness of its Institution and Practice without any Exception ; he may at the same rate question the Authority of our Lord Jesus Christ and his Apostles , in their Teaching and Preaching , because many that heard them were not effectually Cleansed . And in the Commission that was given Math. 28. 19. there is no more mention made of outward teaching , than of outward Baptism , and the Quakers may as well reject Teaching with Words as Baptizing with Water . But to manifest how liable they are to pervert the True Sense of the Matter , see what George Whitehead says concerning the Supper , Page 35. of his Rector Examined , where he produces some Testimonies out of the Book of Martyrs to favour his Cause , which duly considered are directly against it . The Bread and Wine in the Supper , are Figurative and Symbolical , and as the Eating and Drinking by the faithful Receiver , Intitles him to the Graces and Blessings of the Spirit of Christ , so the breaking the Bread and pouring out the Wine , were Instituted as a means to preserve the Faith and Remembrance of his Body and Blood , that was Broken and Slied for the Remission of Sin and which is now Exalted and Glorified in the Heavens , and he being now in Heaven in his Body out of the reach of our Bodily Senses . One end of the Supper is to Receive and Establish the Faith of his Existence , and assurance of his coming in his Body to Judge us ; and those Arguments of Dr. Cranmer and Ridley which George Whitehead recites , were at that time advanced to oppose the Erroneous Conceit of Transubstantiation . See the Book of Martyrs page 74. Where t is said , that to believe the Wafer and Wine to be Transubstantiated into the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ , [ Argument the second ] it varieth from the Articles of Faith , He ascended into Heaven , and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father , from whence ( and not from any other place , saith St. Augustin ) he shall come to judge both the quick and the dead . Thirdly , It destroyeth and taketh away the Institution of the Lord's Supper , which was commanded only to be used and continued until the Lord Himself should come , if therefore He be now really present in the Body of his Flesh , then must the Supper cease . For a Remembrance , is not of a thing present , but of a thing past and absent , and there is a difference between Remembrance and Presence , and ( as one of the Fathers saith ) a Figure is in vain where the thing figured is present . Here you see the Fathers and Martyrs intended one thing , and George Whitehead wou'd make them to intend another ; the Supper is a Figure and Sign not only of the Inward and Spiritual Grace , received by the Faithful in their partaking of it , but also of the Body of Christ now absent in Heaven , the Faith of which being lost among the Quakers , and so much denyed and opposed by their obstinate pervertion ; the reason of the Institution appears the more necessary , and the frequent and due practice of it appears the more seasonable ; and 't is to be hoped that these poor Elements , as they are pleased to call them , with the Blessing of God at the Administration and Reception of them , will prove two such Pillars and Supports of the Christian Faith and Experience , that the Combination of Hell shall not prevail , tho her Gates many ways are set open to furnish the Army of Abaddon . 'T is a specious pretence the Quakers have made to the Virtue and Efficacy of the Inward Principle , as having therein an Art of Extraction , by which they perform as by one single Still , all that can be proposed from the variety in a Laboratory . This very Comparison and Illustration I heard from William Penn in a publick Meeting at Grace-Church-Street , and as much he delivers in his Primitive Christianity , where he Rants at a very unreasonable rate , and as much disparages the Reputation of their Principle by the extravagancy of his Notion , as George Whitehead has done by the Irregularity of his practice . I am sure no Principle of Truth ever taught William Penn to advance such a Notion of the Composition of Man , as he delivers in p. 71. of his Primitive Christianity . Man , ( says he ) as I said just now , is a Composition of both Worlds , his Body is of this , his Soul of the other World — by the Body the Soul looks into and beholds this World , and by the World it beholds God , the World that is without End. So that the World without End , and God , are with him Terms Synonimous , and of this endless World is [ with him ] a part of Man's Composition , his Soul is of its Essence , and beholds its being a kin to God , not only by a Relation but in Substance : And in his Book called Judas and the Jews , p. 130. he hath the following Words . The new despised flock of God shall rest with him in that World which never had beginning , and is without end ; thus he gives us a Description of God , and of the Soul of Man , its being a part of him . And thus , after all the Shuffling and Cutting about the Soul , and Soul of the Soul , 't is easie to see how naturally William Penn jumps in with George Fox in his Notion of the Soul , so fully exposed and explained by George Keith in his fourth Narrative , p. 61 , 62 , 63 , 64 , 65 , 66 , 67. And as in this his Book , entituled Primitive Christianity , he defines the Soul to be part of God , so in his Book entituled , The Invalidit● of John Faldo , p. 365. he defines the Nature of the Body and opposes the conclusion of his Opponent , who speaking of the Resurrection of the Body , says , it shall have the same Matter , tho' not the same Grossness ; it shall have the same Essential Form , tho not the same Accidents . William Penn's Answer will not allow that he ever read in Scripture any thing favourably towards such a Conclusion . His words are , I never read yet of a Body having the same Matter , and not the same Grossness , the same Substance and Essence , and not the same Accidents ; by which account we must believe that either William Penn never read the Scripture , or that he believes the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ , and the Bodies of those that arose after his Resurrection , were changed in Substance . For according to him , if they had the same Substance they must also retain the same Grossness and Accidents ; and consequently that the Body of our Lord Jesus , now in Heaven , is a gross and mortal Body , if they believe he has the same Body now , which he had upon the Earth , And yet notwithstanding this sort of Reasoning , the Quakers Objections and constant Clamour against all sorts of Christians , has been to insinuate the Carnality of their Notions . And thus do they raise such a dust of Confusion by their Doctrines and Distinctions , that many poor People are led entangled in a Mist of thick Darkness . I could give a large and particular Relation of sundry Conferences I have had with several of Note among them , ( appointed to hear and examine my Reasons for declining their Meetings ) from whom I cou'd never yet obtain any plain and positive Answer to this necessary and seasonable Question , Whether our Lord Jesus Christ is now in Heaven above , or without us , in the true and intire Nature of Man glorified , the same for Substance which he had on Earth , and forever to come united with the Godhead . But finding this Doctrine so fully and so safely expressed in the Articles of the Church of England , as also those other necessary and essential Principles of the Christian Religion , inclined me to make a farther Search into the Matter and Manner of her Publick Worship ; which appearing to me so sound and instructive , I could not in Conscience delay my adventuring to make some Approaches towards her Communion . And through a merciful Providence it has pleased Almighty God so to influence and to bless due means of Instruction , that my dear Wife , with several of our Neighbours , who were also in Communion with the People called Quakers , are become religiously affected with the Publick Worship ; and I hope the Lord will preserve us in the Sincerity of our Intentions , the Insinuations notwithstanding and Reproaches of our Adversaries : An instance of which I think sit here to subjoyn , not being likely to obtain any offer of Justice from the Person concerned . Upon my Wife and Children's receiving Baptism in the Church of England , George Whitehead writes a Letter of Condolence to my Wife's Father , wherein he insinuates after this manner : Dear Brother , I have been often sensible of thy Exercise and Affection occasioned by the miserable Backsliding of such near Relations , who have so long professed the blessed Truth among us — The blessed Truth which we have received from the Beginning , in Life and Power , will stand for ever , and out-live all its Adversaries ; and they who are approved and stand faithful therein , shall the more be manifest , and shine , when Shame and Confusion shall cover the Rebellious , who reproach God's Heritage and People to excuse their own Revolting and Looseness of Spirit . The Letter in which these Passages are , falling , providentially into my Hand , I wrote to Geo. Whitehead , as is hereafter exprest . But being in London a considerable time , and having no prospect of having such a Meeting as I desir'd , think fit to expose it , as matter of Caution to himself and such others as may be under temptation to practise the like , to disparage and discourage with such Blasts of Reviling . Hunt. the 16th April , 1700. George Whitehead , In these Passages [ which I transcribed to him ] are contained a severe Charge by way of Insinuation against my self and my Wife , who are the near Relations mentioned in that Letter : And we being such ( had you proved your Charge ) the unworthiness of your Disposition , notwithstanding , hath sufficiently appeared , in offering so to aggravate , and by consequence to set such near Relations at too great a Distance . But whereas your Charge and Insinuations remain unproved by you , they ought in Justice to be returned upon you as a Slander . If you think you can make Proof of these miserable , yea and I may add , detestable things upon us , we desire you would do it ; and that you may be the more manifest and shine , we care not how publickly you do it . Your writing in such a manner to my Father , without any Premonition to us ( had we been really guilty ) looks not only like a Deed of Darkness , but ( we being innocent ) too much intitles you to the Character of those mentioned in the 11th Psalm , Who bend the Bow , and make ready their Arrow upon the String , that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart . Had not your Name and Pretences been what they are , we should have endeavoured to have overlook'd your Reproach , ( as we have done a great deal from others of a meaner Rank among you ) cast upon us , as we verily believe , for our open Profession of the Christian Faith , and practising the Institutions of our blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ , in ways most agreeable to our Judgment , upon a serious , deliberate and impartial Enquiry and Consideration ; and this we take to be the Reason of your Displeasure , knowing very well how you have slighted , opposed , and rejected those great and necessary Truths , and proper means of Christian Fellowship and Communion , appointed , we believe , for that end by our Lord Jesus Christ , and practised by his holy Apostles and Disciples in the first and purest Ages of Christianity . And you in particular bearing such a Name and Sway ( amongst so many deluded , though many of them , I believe , well-meaning People ) and so generally passing under the Character of an honourable and worthy Minister of Christ , 't is therefore highly necessary to take some Notice of your practice . And I do hereby acquaint you that my Occasions calling me to London in a little time , I shall expect you will give me a Meeting before some sober and judicious Persons , either to endeavour the Proof of your Charge , or to retract what you have in such manner insinuated against us . If you think fit to decline to give me such a Meeting , I shall have reason to take it as a sufficient demonstration that Shame and Confusion is over you , in that very manner , and for the very same Cause suggested against us in your Letter . Thus much at present from your abused Friend and Kinsman , R. Bridgman . To which Letter I may now add what is written in the 26th Chapter of the Book of Proverbs , v. 26 , 27. Whose Hatred is covered by Deceit , his Wickedness shall be shewed before the whole Congregation . Whoso diggeth a Pit , shall fall therein ; and he that rolleth a Stone , it will return upon him . FINIS . Page 16. l. 3. for the World it , read the Word it . BOOKS Printed for Brab . Aylmer at the Three Pigeons in Cornhil . MR. Keith's Last Sermon at Turner's-Hall , May 5. 1700. in which he gave an account of his joining in Communion with the Church of England , Quarto . — His Two Sermons Preach'd at the Church of St. George Botolph-lane , May 12. 1700. being his first Preaching after Ordination . Quarto . — His Explications and Retractations of divers Passages in his former Books . Quanto . Price 6d ▪ — His Thanksgiving Sermon Preached . April 16. 1696. Quarto . Price 6d . — His First Narrative at Turner's-Hall , Quarto . Price 12d . — His Second Narrative at Turner's-Hall , Quar. 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The first and fourth Parts of Virgil's Aeneads , in English Burlesque ; by Charles Cotton , Esquire . Liturgies vindicated by the Dissenters . Price bound 1 s. Advice to the Roman Catholicks of England , especially those under Age by the late Act of Parliament . Price 1 s. The History of the Bible , in Quarto , with 264 Cuts , besides three Maps . Le grand's Philosophy . Folio , English Cuts . Mr. Keith's Farewel Sermon at Turners-Hall . — Two first Sermons after Ordination . A full Account of Presbytery , as establish'd in Scotland . Sermons on several Occasions . By Dr. Sprat , Lord Bishop of Rochester . Principles and Duties of Natural Religion . By Bishop Wilkins . The Case of the Dutchess of Mazarine . The Conquest of India by the Portuguese . In 3 Vol. The City and Republick of Venice . Religious Conference about Godfathers and Godmothers . Horace , Translated by Alex. Brome , &c. Erasmus Colloquies , Translated by Sir R. L'Estrange and Mr. Brown. The Compleat Gamester . The Guide of a Christian. Price bound 6 d. A Guide to Heaven , in two Parts . Reform'd Monastery , or the Love of Jesus . A Manual of Prayers for Winchester College . All the Pieces by the same Author . A Treatise of Humane Reason . Method with the Deists and Jews . Arithmetical Recreations . By Leybourn . The Godly-man's Companion . Characters of a Whore , a Bawd , &c. Price 6 6d . Plain-dealing Poulterer . 
A56826	----	The Quakers address to the House of Commons declaring their suffering case, relating to oathes and swearing, as it was pesented by George Whitehead, Capt. William Mead, and other eminent Quakers on Friday last, the 12th instant. 1689 Approx. 3 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-IV TIFF page image. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A56826 Wing Q10 ESTC R25597 09025667 ocm 09025667 42273 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A56826) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 42273) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1292:23) The Quakers address to the House of Commons declaring their suffering case, relating to oathes and swearing, as it was pesented by George Whitehead, Capt. William Mead, and other eminent Quakers on Friday last, the 12th instant. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. Mead, William, 1628-1713. 1 broadside. Printed for W.H., London : 1689. Reproduction of original in the Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Great Britain -- History. Dissenters, Religious -- Great Britain. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-04 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-04 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE QUAKERS ADDRESS TO THE House of Commons . Declaring their Suffering Case , Relating To oathes and Swearing , As it was Presented by George Whitehead , Capt. William Mead , and other Eminent Quakers , on Friday Last , the 12th . Instant . IT is not unknown to this Nation , that ever since we were a People , it hath been our Principle not to Swear , make , or take Oaths , which He who is the searcher of all Hearts knows , is no other than a Case of pure Conscience , in tender Obedience to the Mind of Our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ , as we are fully perswaded , according as many Eminent Martyrs , and Men of Wisdom and Renown were , who Testified against Oaths and Swearing in the Gospel-Day , and not any Obstinacy , Disaffection or Worldly Interest whatsoever on our parts : We being really Willing and Desirous to Answer the Just and Good Ends of Law and Government , as a peaceable People fearing God , and for this Cause of not Swearing we have been Exposed to great Sufferings and Inconveniencies in our Persons and Estates , by tedious Imprisonments , and Disabled from Receiving Our due Debts , or defending Our Just Titles and Properties ; not suffered to give Evidence in Courts of Judicature at Common or Civil Law , nor to Answer in Chancery or Exchequer , prove Wills and Testaments , or take Administrations , or to proceed in our Trades at Custom-House , or be admitted to our Lands , or Trusted in our Duties , and Services in Courts Leet , and Courts Baron ; but great Advantage is taken against us , because we so fear an Oath , as that we dare not Swear : For which cause also , our Children and Young Men are not allowed their Freedoms in Cities or Corporations , when they have Faithfully served out their Apprenteships . Nor admitted to give our Voices in Elections of Magistrates , and Parliament Members in divers Places , tho known to have Right thereunto as Free-holders , &c. Wherefore Our Request is , That in all Cases where OATHES are imposed , and Swearing Required , Our Word , that is , our Solemn Affirmation or Denial as in the fear and presence of God may be accepted instead of an OATH , for which we Humbly Offer , and Freely Submit , That if any under the same Profession among us , break their Word , or be found false in such their Affirmation or Denial , or guilty of Falshood in any Vnsworn Testimony , Evidence , or Answers , That then such Penalty be inflicted on the Person so Offending , as Law and Justice Require in Case of False Swearing or Perjury . This may be Printed , James Fraser . LONDON , Printed for W. H. 1689. 
A35006	----	Babel's builders unmasking themselves as appears by the following paper from Barbadoes, (promoted by George for his party, and subscribed by eighty two of them.) With a letter of G.F.'s, G.W.'s, &c, in answer thereunto; and observations thereupon. Also, a false prophecy of that lying prophet, Solomon Eccles. Published for undeceiving the simple, and in abhorrence and detestation of the principle and practice contained in the said paper; they being of an evil tendency, and contrary to the doctrine of Christ and his apostles, or of any sincere-hearted Protestants, or true Christians this day. By T.C. Crisp, Thomas, 17th cent. 1681 Approx. 44 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A35006 Wing C6948 ESTC R214946 99826987 99826987 31399 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A35006) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 31399) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1882:28) Babel's builders unmasking themselves as appears by the following paper from Barbadoes, (promoted by George for his party, and subscribed by eighty two of them.) With a letter of G.F.'s, G.W.'s, &c, in answer thereunto; and observations thereupon. Also, a false prophecy of that lying prophet, Solomon Eccles. Published for undeceiving the simple, and in abhorrence and detestation of the principle and practice contained in the said paper; they being of an evil tendency, and contrary to the doctrine of Christ and his apostles, or of any sincere-hearted Protestants, or true Christians this day. By T.C. Crisp, Thomas, 17th cent. Fox, George, 1624-1691. Eccles, Solomon, 1618-1683. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 16 p. [s.n.], London : printed in the year, 1681. T.C. = Thomas Crisp. Reproduction of the original in the Friends House Library, London. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Andrew Kuster Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Andrew Kuster Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Babel's Builders Unmasking Themselves , As appears by the following PAPER from Barbadoes , ( promoted by George For his Party , and subscribed by Eighty two of them . ) With a LETTER of G. F's , G. W's , &c. in Answer thereunto ; and OBSERVATIONS thereupon . Also , a FALSE PROPHECY of that Lying Prophet , SOLOMON ECCLES . Published for undeceiving the Simple , and in Abhorrence and Detestation of the Principle and Practice contained in the said Paper ; they being of an evil tendency , and contrary to the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles , or of any sincere-hearted Protestants , or true Christians this day . By T. C. Thus saith the Lord of Hosts , Hearken not unto the words of the Prophets that prophesy unto you ; — they speak a Vision of their own hearts , and not out of the Mouth of the Lord. Jer. 23. 16. Thy Prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee , and they have not discovered thine Iniquity — but seen for thee false Prophecies . Lam. 2. 14. LONDON , Printed in the Year , 1681. THE PREFACE . THE Intent of the Publication of this ensuing Paper and Letter , &c. is not to reflect or reproach in general the People called Quakers , or in contempt of their Principle : for God hath a People among them , many of whom have long been reviled and falsly accused and slandered , because they have conscientiously refused to conform to Prescriptions without Conviction , and are therefore termed Separates , Stubborn , Cains , Judases , Apostats , and what not , that may make them odious to honest People ? But this is to manifest the Apostacy and Innovasions of a few of them that are of the Foxonian Sect , which love Preheminence , and term themselves the Body and Elders , and the Church , and presume to give Laws and Orders to others to conform to , or else be accounted Infidels , Rebels , &c. when it is evident the cause of their Rage against them ( they call Separates , &c. ) is , because they will not rebel against the Light in their own Hearts : So it 's those that pretend themselves the Church , Elders , &c. that would cause the People to rebel , therefore may be said , they are like Jeroboam the Son of Nebat , who made Israel to sin . Also G. F. &c. have manifested themselves to be Lo here 's ( which Christ commanded should not be gone after ) as appears by their Letter herein , produced and pretended as a disowning that Paper or Judgment , but doth chiefly endeavour to stifle it from going abroad , because it manifests their Confusion . And that G. F.'s &c. Universal Spirit they so often mention , is not that which Peter had , Acts 10. 24. which accepts all that fear God , and work Righteousness , but they hedg up the way to Acceptance with God , and leave no Entrance , but by their Forms of Men and Womens Meetings ; contrary to Christ , who said , I am the Way , &c. Also they ascribe that to their Orders and Meetings , which the Scripture ascribes to Christ. And G. F. &c. are so fond of Proselytes to their Orders and Meetings , that notwithstanding this Paper and Judgment is so repugnant to their pretended Foundation-Principle , yet they give not a word of sharp Reproof to it in all their Letter ; as the Apostle to the Galatians , Who hath bewitched you ? but they , instead thereof , give high Commendations : Therefore with sorrow it may be said , as formerly of literal Jerusalem , so now of Jerusalem from above , Her Adversaries are the Chief , her Enemies prevail ; and Blindness is in part hapned to Israel . This hath the Lord suffered to come to pass , that no Flesh should glory in his sight . Therefore be humbled and fear before Him , for their presuming that they are God's People , and that they have his Wisdom and Power with them , therefore they conclude what they do act as the Body or Church , is of God , and must stand as his Will and Counsel , and for want of his Power ( which alone makes his People willing ) they fly to their pretended Church-Power and Authority , and , Saul-like , desire to have Honour before the People ; but what Power theirs is , on which they ground their Authority to proceed against the Dissenters from their prescribed Forms of Meetings , &c. hear Isaac Pennington's Judgment , That Power therefore in the Church which spares the Hypocrites ( who can easily comply with an outward Conformity in Worship without feeling an inward Life and Virtue ) but lights heavy on that which is tender and shy in matters of Worship , that is not the true Church-Power , at best but a Counterfeit of the True. The Lord God preserve and deliver us from those of the Spirit of Gehazi , who falsly use the Master's Name , when he never sent them . Even so , Amen , saith T. Crisp. At a Quarterly Meeting at Ralph Fretwell's House in Barbadoes the 23d day of the tenth Month , 1680. THE sum of the Testimony this day born amounts to this : That there is this day a Choice to be made , viz. Whether Friends will cleave and abide unto the Universal Spirit of the living God , and each give up their whole Concerns ; with which Spirit the Faithful have Unity ? Or , Whether they will give up unto the Judgment unto their own Particular , or Particulars only , with which the Judgment General of the Meeting have not Urity ? After very many Testimonies given , to the further opening of the Question , the Judgment underneath was written , being voluntarily subscribed unto by each Particular of this Meeting , or by their Order their Names were hereunto put . I desire to give up my whole Concern , if required , both Spiritual and Temporal , unto the Judgment of the Spirit of God in the Men and Womens Meetings : as believing it to be more according to the Universal Wisdom of God , than any particular measure in my self , or any particulars with which the Men and Women̄s Meetings have not Unity . Subscribed by Men 39. Women 43. Total 82. The Party that sent the above-said , writes thus , viz. This Paper hath been promoted in sundry other Meetings since , and subscribed : some few have refused : in abhorrence whereof other Perswasions have Posted it . Here follows the Letter of G. F. &c. to the Quarterly Meeting at Barbadoes touching the said Paper ; whereby it may be seen how , and wherein they own or disown it . NOw dear Friends , if this Order or Judgment should come into the hands of any Apostates or Opposers , they would make ill work with it , and say that we set up an Arbitrary Power over Mens Consciences and Properties , and an implicit Faith and Submission , without inward Conviction * ; And that we divided the measure of God in a Particular , from the Universal Spirit of God in other Particulars in Men and Womens Meetings . And as for subscribing unto such an Order or Judgment , they would say , it was like the Scots Covenant ‖ ; and as tho the measure of the Faith and Spirit of God in themselves , was not agreeable to the Universal Spirit and Faith in the Men and Womens Meetings ; and that if they should go from the measure of Faith and Spirit of God in their own particulaers , and to give up both their Spiritual and Temporal Concerns to the Universal Spirit in Men and Womens Meetings . This would be the way to bring them all from the measure of the Spirit in their own particulars . For how can the Men and Women in the Universal Spirit receive that which is not given up from the Universal Spirit : therefore all must be left to the Universal Spirit in their own measures thereof ; and as for the Stubborn and Wilfull , that are against Men and Womens Meetings , the Universal Spirit cannot receive that . And all are to give up to the Universal Spirit of God in their own Particulars , in which Spirit they have Unity and Fellowship without outward Subscription , and to be led by the same Spirit to see their Names written in Heaven in this Gospel-day of Light and Life , and this is and was the Saints Testimony in the New-Covenant of Light and Life , and their Heavenly Subcription , which is above all outward Subcriptions both among the Jews and Professors , for one ties them below , and the other ties them above . And for any to say they desire to give up their whole concerns both Spiritual and Temporal unto the Judgment of the Spirit of God in Men and Womens Meetings , as believing it to be more according to the universal Wisdom of God , than any particular measure in my self , or any particulars . Now this would make the belief which is in the Light , and the measure of the Spirit in their own particulars , not one with the Universal Spirit in the said Meetings . And as for those that the Men and Womens meetings in the universal Spirit of God have not Unity with , they are erred from their own measures of the Spirit of God ; but the Universal Spirit of God has Unity with the least measure now , as it was in the Apostles days , who kept every one to their own measure ; which was both the great Rule and Line of the New Creature in the Believers and Saints then , and so with that the Universal Spirit in the Apostles and Elders then had , and now have Unity . And therefore , dear Friends , we know your care and tenderness of Truth , and that you aim at the best things * , and have had much to do with some loose Spirits there : and therefore our desires are , that you would stop this Paper from going any further , lest some should get Copies of it , and spread amongst bad Spirits ; and keep in the general tender Spirit of God , that in love you may answer the measure of the Spirit of God in them that are convinced by it , and in them that err from it . And the Man of God must not strive , but be gentle towards all . And so concluding with the Apostle's tender Advice , 1 Cor. 1. 10. Now I beseech you , Brethren , by the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ , that you all speak the same thing , and that there be no Divisions amongst you , but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind , and in the same judgment . And Phil. 2. 2 , 3. Fulfill you my joy ; that you be like-minded , having the same Love , being of one accord , of one mind . Let nothing be done through strife , or vain-glory , but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves . And 1 Pet. 3. 8. Finally , be all of one mind , having compassion one of another , love as Brethren : Be pitiful , be ▪ courteous . Now as for your Subscription to an outward tie , be above such things ; forasmuch as You are manifestly declared to be the Epistle of Christ , written not with Ink , but , with the Spirit of the living God ; which Spirit hath given you Life , and will bring you to the City of the living God , the Heavenly Jerusalem , and to the General Assembly and Church of the first-born , which are written in Heaven , &c. London the 20th of the 4th Month , 1681. Your dear Friends and Brethren in our Lord Jesus Christ , in whom you have Peace , Life , and Salvation . GEORGE FOX . ALEX. PARKER . GEO. WHITEHEAD . Now by this Letter of G. F. &c. they either condemn the aforesaid Paper , or not : if they condemn it , then these three particular Persons condemn the Judgment of the Universal Spirit of God ( as they call it ) in the Men and Womens Meetings : if they do not condemn it , then they fall in with them in contradiction to their first Principles . But it is observed , that they rather dislike the wording it , than the matter of it , and would have it believed that those Measures in Particular Persons which Men and Womens Meetings have not Unity with , They are erred from their own Measures of the Spirit of God , and are stubborn , wilful , and the like . Thus do they condemn the conscientious Refusers , and greatly magnify the Authors of the said Paper , and do fully assert their Authority . As for their advising against such Subscriptions , it may be observ'd that their Reasons are , Lest Apostats or Opposers ( as they call them ) should make ill work with it , and say such and such things as do clearly follow from it . Not that these three Men are against the Substance or Doctrine couched in the subscribed Paper ; but they are afraid to give the World ( that which some have long seen ) such a clear instance of their Apostacy from their former Principles ; and their Ambition in having all the Quakers subject to them : for these Men and Womens Meetings must do nothing which does not agree with the Judgment of G. F. and his Elders . Let all sober Men judg of the turnings and twinings that are to be discovered in these two Papers , that from Barbadoes , and that from London ; and how inconsistent they are with themselves , and their first Principles . A● for the aforesaid Paper from Barbadoes , wherein is exprest the Judgment of the Quarterly Meeting , I take it to be neither according to Scripture , nor the Principles of Truth ! And first , for Scripture ; By it you make void the New Covenant , or Law written in the Heart . Of which it is said , Heb. 8. 11. They shall not need to teach every Man his Brother , saying , Know the Lord ; but all shall know me from the least to the greatest . And John 2. The Anointing which you have received of Him , abideth in you , you need not any Man to teach you , but as That teacheth , &c. But your Judgment contradicts these , ( viz. Give up your whole Concern , Spiritual and Temporal , if required , unto the Spirit of God ( as you say ) in Men and Womens Meetings , believing it to be more according to the Universal Wisdom of God , than any particular measure in your selves , &c. But the Scripture saith , None know the things of God but the Spirit of God. And how shall any one know what the Meeting requires is according to the Spirit of God , if not by a measure of it in themselves ? It is also said , If our Heart condemn us , God is greater : but if that condemn us not , then have we confidence towards God. For if it please God to reveal any thing to any Particular , and the General deny or disown it , then that Particular must deny that Revelation , and give up to the General . According to this Doctrine I cannot see how the Church should ever be restored out of the Apostacy , unless God first reveal Himself to the General ; which seems to be contrary to His way of Manifestation to this very day : For what must John have done with his Revelations and Message to the Asian Churches , Sardis and Laodicea , who had a name to live , and were dead ? and said , they were rich , and encreased in Goods , and wanted nothing . They thought well of themselves , and had but few Names left , ( not the Generality ) yet were mistaken , and Apostatized , and reproved by a Particular . Now , according to your Judgment , John , and the few Names , ought to have given up to the General , and not to his Particular Revelation . Also all the Reformations since the Apostacy , have been begun by Particulars , and opposed and persecuted by the General ; therefore it is not , as you say , most agreeing to the Wisdom of God , to cleave to the Judgment of the General , but to the Particular Manifestation ; although the Judgment General have not unity therewith . For if a Particular may reprove the General , surely he ought to cleave to his Particular measure for his own Belief and Practice , although the General have not unity therewith : for what is not of Faith , is Sin , much more what is contrary thereto . For if any Meeting require any one to do or believe contrary to their own measure : whoever obeys them , becomes therein a Servant to these Persons or Meetings ; for it is said , His Servants ye are , whom ye obey . Hereby you call such Men , or Meetings , your Master , or Father , which is contrary to Christs Command . O Friends , strain not at Gnats , and swallow such Camels ! which the 82 seem to me to have done . Secondly ; That it is against the Principles of Truth , is plain enough , and needs no proof : For by that we are taught to be guided by the manifestation of God's Spirit in our hearts , to speak and act , as thereby instructed , and that the Judgment of Truth through a part of Christ's Members , cannot become a Bond on others further than their Understandings are illuminated thereby . These two Positions the Judgment aforesaid seems to contradict . Also read E. B. & I. P's Works , or any ancient Friends , they all direct to the Light in our own Hearts or Consciences , as the only and sufficient Guide and Leader ▪ But you not only contradict Scripture , and Friends Testimonies , but have given such an unlimited power to Meetings , and not contented to give that to Men which never before was given , since Protestantism , but to Women also , in which the Scripture is silent ; or what it says is rather against their having any power or rule , but to be subject . Nay , this unlimited Power was one of the heavy weights in the Pope's Yoke , that made it so uneasy to England in times of Popery ; neither can I find that ever in England the Pope , or any Church , gained this Point by all their Stratagems , Wars , &c. as you have granted , ( viz. Spirituals and Temporals . ) The Christian State is said to be a Glorious Liberty , but your Judgment makes them Slaves and Vassals , and will cause any Understanding Men to avoid submitting to such a Church that hath so unlimited a Power ; 't is much safer submitting to a Church which makes the Scripture their Rule ; for there one may know what they may or can require of one , but yours ( after one hath given up Spirituals , &c. ) may still require more without measure , if you pretend or stamp such Requirings with the name of the Universal Spirit of God , as Experience teacheth hath been too frequent . What is become of all our Protesting Fore-Fathers , according to your judgment ? for you seem to have acquitted Rome of all their Blood , and yet they had not only the Judgment of the generality of the Church , but of the Magistracy and Law of the Nation against them , which was of greater Authority than your Womens Meetings , for which there is no Precept , Precedent , nor Law , but against . I am ashamed that after all this Light and Knowledg pretended , any should make such a long stride towards Rome , which now is very unseasonable ; for if but one more such , I know not but you may both too soon meet and imbrace each other . But if any say we mistake you , you do not give up to the Meeting , but to the Spirit of God , &c. But W. Pen's Address , &c. and other Testimonies , I think answer that , viz. A Man may falsly believe , as the true Church believes : and if I believe only , because she believes , and not because I am convinced in my own Understanding and Conscience , my Faith is false , tho hers be true . p. 146. Also E. Burrough saith , Every one is to mind the Teachings of the Spirit of Christ in himself , for to that he is to stand or fall . p. 852. Now that which further aggravates and makes this Judgment the worse , is , that it should come from such persons as G. F. &c. writes , the 82 Subscribers to be , viz ▪ manifestly declared the Epistle of Christ , written with the Spirit of the living God , which Spirit hath given you Life , and will bring you to the City of the living God , &c. High-grown Christians , or G. F. &c. highly mistaken ! Thus what you have done seems to be to the dishonour of Truth , and contrary to what you once professed : for the sufficiency of light in your own hearts was that Gospel you received , and they preached at first , for all to cleave to , and abide by , & give up to . But now to give up to the Requirings of others , altho contrary to That ; what more like another Gospel ? Therefore I beseech you mind the Exhortation , If We , or an Angel from Heaven bring any other Gospel , than that you have received , let him be accursed . And avoid all such Questions as these are , and the Propounders thereof , for they are but foolish Questions , yea , worse , and will gender to strife ; therefore let no Men ( nor Women especially ) rule over you , neither receive their Traditions for Doctrines , further than manifested by the Truth in your own Hearts , and in the Scriptures . Are ye so foolish as to believe that the Requirings of Men and Womens Meetings , without Scripture-evidence , or manifestation by the Light in your own Hearts , can give you acceptance with God ? when as Christ said to them that said they had prophesied , and cast out Devils , and done many mighty works in his Name , Depart , I know you not , &c. And think you such unwarrantable requirings , and implicit giving up , can stand you in stead ? Nay , this perswasion cometh not of God , but , as was prophesied in Scripture , Some shall arise from among your selves , speaking perverse things . Remember from whence ye are fallen , and return to the measure of Truth in your own selves , and arise and depart from such Judgments , for fear it be fulfilled on you , as was said against some of old , when they knew God , they glorified him not as God ; they became vain in their imaginations , and their foolish hearts were darkned : Therefore I pray be not so soon moved and tossed up and down by these windy , Arbitrary and implicit Judgments of Men , who have Mens Persons and Orders in admiration , because of advantage ; for such serve not Christ but themselves : but mind the Truth in your own Hearts , and according , as the Apostle said , let every one be fully perswaded in his own mind . You must answer for your selves to God , when it shall be said , Who required these things at your hands ? Will any Men or Women , or outward written Orders , have greater force than Moses and the Prophets ? Nay ; but as many as are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God ; this Spirit , Christ said he would send , should be in them . Think me not your Enemy , because I deal plainly with you : For it is in Love to Truth ( and abhorrence of Arbitrary and Unlimited Power , and implicit , blind and unacceptable Obedience ) that I write to you , desiring the Lord may open your Understandings to know his Will , and what is acceptable ; and I recommend you to the Spirit of Grace in your own Hearts , which is able through Faith in Christ , to preserve you blameless and harmless in this crooked Generation ; to God alone be Glory and Dominion for ever . Friends , mind the good Sermon of Christ on the Mount ; also the sound Exhortations in the Epistles of Paul and Peter , &c. which , as in Faith read and considered , may be helpful and useful to the Man of God in words and works . Forasmuch as the foregoing Letter of G. F. &c. to Barbadoes was produced , as a proof of their denial of the said Paper , I have read it , and observe this therefrom , That they are more afraid of its Publication , than ashamed of the Matter ; and do more object the subscribing the Paper , than owning the Principle : as appears by their words , If it should come into the hands of Opposers , &c. they would say we set up Arbitrary Power , and Implicit Faith , &c. which are the plain tendency thereof . But it is needful to know what they mean by the Universal Spirit , being that is so often mentioned . I take it to be the Opinion or Judgment of the Ruling Party ( or Foxonians ) among the Quakers ; because they exclude those who oppose their Orders , as being Apostats , and gone out from the Universal Spirit . Also I take this Spirit of theirs not to be the Universal Spirit of God , but a private selfish Spirit of their own : Because they say , As for the Stubborn and Wilfull that are against Men and Womens Meetings , the Universal Spirit cannot receive that . Now those they term Stubborn , &c. are not against Men and Womens Meetings , but differ about the Form and Power thereof ; they are only against Women having Meetings apart from the Men , when they have no business requires it : not against them in Cities , great Towns and Places where they live near together , and occasions require ; but only in Counties where they live remote from each other , and have no business . Also about the Form of Marriages , &c. For these Persons , who they say are against Meetings , do , and are willing to use them on necessary occasions . This is the state of the Difference , and the Case of those Persons G. F. &c. terms Apostats , bad Spirits , &c. G. F. &c. say , the Universal Spirit cannot receive that . I shall shew by Testimonies of other Friends , that notwithstanding Differences , yet Christians ought to receive each other , and walk in Love as Brethren . E. Burrough says , Every one was to walk in that measure of Truth they had attained to ; and notwithstanding their difference in Judgment , whether in Cases substantial or ceremonial , yet they were still to be in love and unity . p. 809. and every one to mind the teachings of the Spirit in himself . Hereby you may see that E. B. could receive in love , and walk in unity with such as differed in Cases substantial : which is as high a Difference as any about Womens Meetings . Also W. Pen says ( Address to Protestants , p. 70. ) I cannot see how such Men can excuse themselves from great presumption , &c. who deny those Persons to be Members of Christ's Church , that in Conscience refuse to subscribe any other draught than their Lord hath given them . Then how can G. F. &c. excuse themselves , who say , Those that be against Womens Meetings the Universal Spirit cannot receive ? unless G. F. &c. prove that such Dissenters have had their Form of Womens Meetings from their Lord. G. F. &c. must admit them Members of Christ's Church , or prove they refuse that which the Lord hath given them ; or else G. F. &c. are inexcusable , and condemnable by their own owned Testimonies . Also 2 Pet. 1. 5. Give all diligence thereunto : add to Faith , Vertue , Knowledg , Temperance , Patience , Godliness , Brotherly-kindness , Love : for if these things be in you , and abound , ye shall not be unfruitful , nor barren , &c. — Wherefore give all diligence to make your Calling and Election sure : for if you do these things , ye shall never fail ; for an entrance shall be ministred unto you into the everlasting Kingdom . Now I appeal to any sober Christian , Whether all these qualifications may not be in one , and yet conscienciously dissent from a Form of Womens Meetings , as used and ordered by G. F. If it can be , as I am sure it may be , that one may be so qualified and assisted by God's Spirit , as to attain these Vertues expressed by the Apostle Peter , and not comply with G. F's Womens Meetings ; then a sure entrance is made into the everlasting Kingdom , and they are received by the Universal Spirit of God : therefore G. F's , &c. Spirit , is not that of God , nor of E. B. or I. P. nor the Spirit of Christ and his Apostles , for they said , Judg not ; and that the Tree was known by its Fruit. But G. F. &c. will judge and condemn for evil , and gone from the Spirit , although no evil Fruit appears . Also , where evil Fruit does appear , as in this their Judgment , yet he can say to them , because they own his Form , and Womens Meetings , We know your care , and that you aim at the best things . So that to give up to his Orders , tho contrary to their own measures , is by him termed the best things , and they are manifestly declared the Epistle of Christ , writ with the Spirit of the living God , &c. whereby he seems to place more Virtue and Power in conforming to his Orders of Womens Meetings , than in all Faith and fruits of the Spirit , expressed in the Scripture . And where-ever G. F. mentions the Universal Spirit , I take him he means the Spirit that set up these Meetings , and persecutes all such who cannot for Conscience sake conform to his Womens Meetings . Now Christ said , Whatever ye would another should do to you , that do unto them : Love thy Neighbour as thy self , &c. This is the Universal Spirit , to desire no more Liberty nor Charity from another , than one would be content to allow them ; and impose no more on another , than one would have them impose on ones self . G. F. &c. once cried for Liberty of Conscience ; none must perform any Worship , but taught and led thereinto by the Light in their own Hearts : but having gathered a People to themselves , now ( say they ) Submit to your Elders : and if not conform to his Orders for Conscience sake , then , Wilful , stubborn , out of the Universal Spirit and Truth , and all that is Good , &c. Also it appears that the Subscribers of the Paper , and G. F. &c. do differ ▪ for G. F. &c. say , This would make the belief which is in the Light , and the measure of the Spirit in their own Particulars , not one with the Universal Spirit , &c. Indeed so it does : for there be many that believe in the Light , and measure of the Spirit , and its sufficiency , not one with G. F's &c. imposing Spirit , which he calls Universal , but against it ; altho the true Universal Spirit of Christ , and in all His , hath now , as formerly , unity with the least measure in any Member , tho for Conscience sake they may be of a differing apprehension in some things ; and therefore saith the Apostle , he became all to all , weak , or strong ; and said , bear one anothers Burdens , and bear one with another ; and therefore he condescended to baptize , and circumcise , to win over , and endeavoured the encrease of their Faith and Understandings ; not blind Conformity before Convincement , but said , If any be otherwise minded , God shall reveal , &c. As their Faith increased , so should their Obedience . The Spirit , the Apostle was in , could receive those that differed in Judgment and Practice in some things , and did not say they were erred from their measures ; and if against Womens Meetings , that the Universal Spirit could not receive them , but were careful not to offend the weak ; would deny themselves that which was lawful , for the benefit of the weak : therefore not of G. F's , &c. pretended Universal Spirit . Now G. F. &c. Letter is so jumbled together , seemingly disowning , and yet owning the Paper too : but take them either ways ; if they disown , then that manifests a difference ; if they own it , then they plainly manifest themselves to be what the Dissenting Party have objected against them many years , ( only G. F. &c. have imperiously and wrongfully born them down ) viz. that they do in their Actings contradict their Principles and Doctrine ; that is , they ( as the Pharisees ) say , and do not : for it is evident by the whole scope of their Letter , that they only are dissatisfied with the wording of it , and afraid of its publication , knowing they cannot justify it , and that it is that they have been charged for practising these many years , and for this cause many have and do dissent from them , whom they term , — gone from the Power of God , and Opposers of the Order of the Gospel : Setters up of Standards against Truth : and many other names & marks of Sons of Perdition ; when they have nothing else against them , only not submitting to G. F.'s Orders without conviction : for G. F , &c. do not at all contradict the Principle , only the Subscribing to it ; nor deny but their Meetings have such Power , or ought to be given up to , only would insinuate that it is done from the Universal Spirit of God : and all who do not so believe and act , the Universal Spirit cannot receive , &c. But all that fear God , beware of such Men , who be thus given to change , and believe and act so contrary to what they say and pretend ; and notwithstanding the good words of the Apostles in the latter end of G. F's Letter , which be found ; and had they kept themselves to their primitive Testimony and sound Doctrine , as in Scripture , there had not been this Separation : but having followed the devices of their own Heads , with fair words and speeches beguile the many simple ones ; but now their folly is made manifest , and that they have only a Form of Godliness , but deny the Power thereof ; from such turn away . And it is better to be by such accounted Separates , than for their favour to deprive your selves of the benefit of your own measures of Light and Life , according to which all shall be at last judged . WHat is here afore-wrote , is not as a full Answer or Detection of the Depths of Satan , and Mystery of Iniquity that is couched under , or lies hidden in this Judgment asserted in the Paper from Barbadoes , and the seeming Answer of dislike thereto , given by G. F. &c. but only as a Mite from one , and according to present ability , to manifest his detestation of all such Principles and Practices . The aforesaid Judgment being publickly read in Gracechurch-street-Meeting , with a Protestation against it , that it would be printed unless disowned by them , and as a stop to the printing of the same , and in vindication of G. F , &c. this Letter or Answer was produced , which indeed is more subtilly worded , but denies not , nor disowns the Principles therein , neither refuses nor denies to receive what is in that Judgment given up to them ; but I doubt not but that there will be some of greater ability , who shall contribute much more to the uncovering Her who hath long sat as a Queen , and deceived many , yet says , I shall not see Widowhood nor Sorrow ; because her Children are many and mighty , through the Power they have received from that Beast on which she rides , and will suffer none to buy nor sell in their Market , but who receive her Mark in their Forehead or Hand . For notwithstanding their Judgment is such bare-faced Popery , and so contrary to their pretended Principles , yet observe how G. F. &c. treat the Authors , viz. We know your care and tenderness for Truth , and that you aim at the best things , and are manifestly declared the Epistle of Christ , written with the Spirit of the living God , which will bring you to the City of the living God , &c. And not one Reproof in all , only Caution for fear of its Publication , &c. But when we consider the Names and Terms which are given to others that profess the same Faith , and agree in all things , except as aforesaid , viz. Something about Womens Meetings , and some Forms of Marriages , &c. they for this consciencious forbearing to practise such things as they have no faith in , are termed Apostats , departed from the Truth , such as the Universal Spirit cannot receive , &c. By all which we may see how they would hedg up the way to God , and leave no door to come in by , but G. F's . Forms ; nay , not only so , but tie up or limit God , that if he reveales any thing to any particular , he must give up all to the general , and if they have not unity with it , must cleave to the general against that particular measure of knowledg or manifestation in himself ; but I think hereby is plainly manifested , that there be such Innovators as W. Rogers hath mentioned in his Book , viz. The Christian Quaker distinguished from the Apostate and Innovator , which Title C. Taylor says is notorious Blasphemy . But hereby it not only appears that the Title is proper , and no Blasphemy : but also that there was just cause for W. R's ▪ writing that Book ; for the cause that those , they call Apostates , separate from them , is not out of any dislike or denial of the Principles of Truth ( altho they say all that oppose them be gone from Truth ) but in opposition to their usurping Authority over Peoples Consciences in Religious Matters , and requiring Conformity to their Orders , before , or without conviction . This is the chief cause of all their hard Speeches , and false Accusations against J. S. J. W. and those they term Apostats and Separates , and say , In the Name of the Lord they resolve to give Battel where-ever they meet that Spirit . But others are resolved in the Spirit of the Lamb not to bow to their Image , having seen that they should , as they have done , manifested themselves to be what they are , even empty Clouds . The Lord open the Understandings of all the Simple-hearted among them , ( as I believe there be many ) and preserve all blameless and in love , that they may have no just cause to speak evil of you : but separate from such who have a Form of Godliness , and high swelling Words of Church-Power and Gospel-Order ( which they have made to themselves , and are bowing to , even the work of their own hands , as appears by the fore-going and following lying Prophecy of Sol. Eccles ) and have your minds girt up towards the Lord , and your Conversation as becomes the Gospel , in Meekness and Fear , not terrified by their high swelling Words ; and seeing the evil effects of forsaking the Teaching of the Lord by his Spirit , to give up to Men and Womens Meetings , and Orders , beware lest you be carried away with the error of the wicked , and fall from your own stedfastness ; but endeavour to grow in Grace , and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ , to whom alone be Obedience and Glory for ever : which is the desire of my Heart , as for my self , so for all that desire to follow the Lord , and that we may be kept from Idols . AMICUS VERITATI . Here follows the false Prophecy of S. E. taken out of his Letter which he ( accompanied with two eminent Friends and Espousers of G. F. and his Party ) delivered to J. S. who is still alive , notwithstanding his predicting the contrary several years ago . O JOHN STORY , what hast thou done against the Lord , & thy own Soul ! Thou hast divided the Heritage of God ; and the Good Ordinances which Christ Jesus hath set up in his Church hast thou contemned , especially Womens Preachings , and Womens Meetings ; therefore will the Lord throw Contempt upon thee ; and if thou dost not repent speedily , miserable will be thy end . O how hast thou lost thy Place and Dignity which thou had amongst the Saints in Light ! and now to be numbred amongst the Rebellious ! If ever thou find mercy with the Lord , go home to the North with speed , and break up the Divided Meetings , which thou and John Wilkinson have been instrumental to divide from the Body of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Anger of the Lord is chiefly against thee ; and thou art bound with two Bonds : for the Church and Brethren have bound thee on Earth , and thou art surely bound in Heaven ; and this is the Testimony of Jesus to thee , neither shalt thou be able to get from under these Bonds , till thou art reconcil'd to the Brethren . Hast , O haste to the Work above said , lest the Wrath of the Lord over-take thee before it be done , and be reconciled to GEORGE FOX , who is God's Friend , and the Servant of the living God , and Great Apostle of Jesus Christ. — haste away to the North , for thy time is short , and go quickly thou and thy Brother , if possible you may bring again to the Body of Jesus Christ , those ye have scattered , lest their Blood be required at your hands — Arise quickly , and be going , for this is the Word of the Lord to thee , viz. That this Year shalt thou ( John Story ) die , because thou hast Taught Rebellion against the living God. 1st day of the 1st month , 1677. SOLOMON ECCLES . READER , OBserve what this S. E. delivers in the Name of the LORD , viz. 1. Their Womens Preachings and Womens Meetings are the good Ordinances which Christ hath set up in his Church . 2. That being reconcil'd , ( i. e. submitting ) to G. F. &c. is the only way to find Mercy with the Lord. 3. G. F. &c. ( who call themselves the Body of Friends ) these he terms the Body of Jesus Christ. 4. That great Lye he delivered as the Word of the Lord , This Year shalt thou ( John Story ) Die , 1677 , who was then very ill , and not like to live , but is now alive and well , altho above three years since . This is here inserted , that all who read or hear it , may fear , and beware of taking the Name of the Lord in vain , as these so frequently do , and of having Mens Persons in Admiration ; as this S. E. and others have done by G. F. as appears by the Titles they have given him , viz. One greater than Moses : A Prophet indeed , &c. It was said of Christ , that he was in the World , and the World was made by him , and the World knew him not : So it may be said of this true Prophet , whom John said he was not ; but thou shalt feel this Prophet one day as heavy as a Milstone upon thee , and altho the World knows him not , yet he is known . Again , they stile G. F. The Father of many Nations , whose Life hath reached through us thy Children , even to the Isles afar off ; whose being and habitation is in the Power of the Highest , in which thou rules and governs in Righteousness , and thy Kingdom is established in Peace , and the encrease thereof is without end . These , and many more have been given him , which he hath received . Now these things are covered , excused , or justified : but if any conscientiously dissent from their Ceremonies , they shall be persecuted with rigour and false Accusations . O was ever greater Partiality , and respect of Persons manifested from any pretending to Christianity ! And if Trees may be known by their Fruits , these are evil ones : Therefore , dear Friends , come out from amongst them , be ye separate , and touch none of these unclean things : for such Principles and Practices are the Brats of Babylon ; and happy shall those be who dash them against the Stones ; but , Wo to them that give suck , nourish , or countenance them . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A35006-e540 * What more true ? ‖ But G. F. G. W. &c. do not say so . * Contrary to S. Crisp , who said , The Paper was not only ill worded , but he believed 't was ill meant What higher Testimony can be given to the Saints and Servants of the most high God , than G. F. G. W. & A. P. give the Authors and Subscribers of this wicked and ungodly Paper ? 
A60564	----	The Quaker disarm'd, or, A true relation of a late publick dispute held at Cambridge by three eminent Quakers against one scholar of Cambridge ; with a letter in defence of the ministry and against lay-preachers ; also several quæries proposed to the Quakers to be answered if they can. Smith, Thomas, 1623 or 4-1661. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A60564 of text R18877 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing S4227). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 70 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A60564 Wing S4227 ESTC R18877 12440041 ocm 12440041 62083 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A60564) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 62083) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 298:9) The Quaker disarm'd, or, A true relation of a late publick dispute held at Cambridge by three eminent Quakers against one scholar of Cambridge ; with a letter in defence of the ministry and against lay-preachers ; also several quæries proposed to the Quakers to be answered if they can. Smith, Thomas, 1623 or 4-1661. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. Allen, William, d. 1686. Fox, George, 1624-1691. [32] p. Printed by J.C. ..., London : 1659. The three Quakers are George Whitehead, William Allen and George Fox. They are disputing with Thomas Smith. Attributed to Thomas Smith. Cf. NUC pre-1956. Reproduction of original in Friends' Library, London. Imperfect: imprint date torn; film also lacks: Questions propounded by George Whitehead and George Fox / Richard Blome. eng Society of Friends -- England. A60564 R18877 (Wing S4227). civilwar no The Quaker disarm'd, or A true relation of a late publick dispute held at Cambridge by three eminent Quakers, against one scholar of Cambrid Smith, Thomas 1659 13094 26 5 0 0 0 0 24 C The rate of 24 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2003-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-05 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-06 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2003-06 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE QUAKER DISARM'D , OR A TRUE RELATION Of a Late Publick DISPUTE HELD AT CAMBRIDGE By Three Eminent QUAKERS , against One Scholar of Cambridge . WITH A Letter in Defence of the MINISTRY , AND AGAINST LAY-PREACHERS . ALSO Several Quaeries proposed to the Quakers to be answered if they can . LONDON , Printed by I. C. and are sold neer the Little North-Door of S. Pauls Church . 1659. THE PREFACE BEfore I set down the particulars of this Dispute , it seems not amiss to premise ( as an introduction to it ) what passed between this Scholar and the forementioned George Whitehead before it . In May last this Scholar walking over the Palace Yard about his necessary occasions , chanced to see a great multitude of People over against Westminster Hall compassed with Souldiers in red Coates . Drawing near , he heard Whitehead preaching against Universities , Learning , and Tithes , and the Clergy ; and askt some of the red-coates whether he might speak a word ? They answered they could not tell . Whereupon he crowded up to Whitehead and askt him the same question , who said No , no . Another Souldier that stood neer him , said , hold thy tongue or I le stop thy mouth . So the Scholar held his peace , till W. had done his railing , against the Priests . Then the People cryed out with one voice , Let the Gentleman speak , let the Gentleman speak . Whereupon the Scholar stood up , and used such arguments in few words against W. ( in answer to which , W. said nothing ; but another Q. stood up and prayed ) that all the People showted . Notwithstanding which the Q. going on in his prayer , the people made an hideous shriek to disturbe him . The Quakers all desired the S. to quiet them telling him they were his followers and Sons of Ishmael . At length the People ( seeing that none of the Quakers would attempt to answer the Scholars argument , desired him to come away ; lest the Q. should do him a mischief . So he left the Quakers , and with ●im came all the People , leaving a few Souldiers and about a douzen Quakers at their exercise . The Day following , and severall dayes after the S. went to seek the Quakers at the said house , but found none , and never yet heard that any of them met there since . But upon Aug. 25. 1659. the same S. having been all the Afternoon ( from one a clock till four or five ) in St. Johns Coll. Library turning over Arabick and other MSS. returning home wearied his nearest way , unexpectedly saw the same Whitehead preaching in the Quakers common meeting-house . So he went in , desired leave to speak : and ( when Whitehead had done ) confuted his Doctrine . Next day , considering how apt silly Women were to be led away captive by such deceivers , he sent this following Note to the Major of Cambridge , hoping in the conclusion to reclaim his Wife , who is a Quaker . Whereas George Whitehead preacher to the Quakers in Cambridge deliver'd in his Sermon among them Yesterday , 1. That they are not Hereticks , and 2. that they teach no other Doctrine but what Abraham and Christ taught ; and 3. afterwards said , that the Scriptures are not the word of God . I am ready this Day ( at any hour or place ) to prove the forementioned Doctrines very false , and 2ly . to defend those 3 arguments that I urged against him yesterday , by showing that he neither did , nor can answer any thing to them : and 3ly . to prove by divers other arguments , that 't is a damnable sin for him ( or any such man ) to preach , and a damnable sin for any man or woman to hear him . T. S. Chr. Coll. Aug. 25. 1659. Hereupon the Major sent for Whitehead , who ( before him ) wrote down these following positions ; which he said he would defend against T. S. at what time , and place , the Major should appoint . 1. That we called Quakers do not open a door to damnable Heresies . 2. That we called Quakers are not Hereticks : because 3. We do not teach any Heresy , and 4. We walk not in the steps of Hereticks . 5. That the Bible is not the Word . These things I will defend against the contrary affirmations of T. S. George Whitehead . Then he caused these three positions to be writ saying , he would defend them also . 6. The Scriptures doth not say , If any man say he hath no sin he deceives himself . 7. I deny that this is truth [ If any man say he hath no sin he deceives himself ] as concerning the Saints . 8. 'T is not a Damnable sin , for me or any such man to preach , and for any man or woman to hear us . On Saturday night Aug. 27. T. S. wondring that he heard nothing of the time and place of meeting , went to the Major to ask what was resolved , who answered , that the Aldermen were not willing it should be in the Town-Hall ; So that if there were any Dispute at all , it must be in the Quakers common meeting house , but that severall Aldermen were not willing there should be any Dispute , and that he himself would not advise T.S. to Dispute . Whereupon T. S. resolved not to dispute against the minde of the Corporation . Next day Aug. 29. between 12 , and 1. a clock came this following Summons to T. S. from W. Friend , T. S. This is to certifie thee , that according to our agreement when I was with thee , I am willing to give thee a meeting . And seeing that no other place is appointed , I intend to be at our meeting place ( over against Sidney Colledge-gate this day about the 1. or 2d . hour in the afternoon . Where I may expect thy appearance , according to thy promise to me , first to produce thy arguments , &c. Subscribed G. Whitehead . Cambridge this 29th . of the 6th Moneth . 59. Superscribed for T. S. at that place called , &c. Immediately the same Person received another Summons from Mr. James Alders beginning thus . Sir , I was called this Morning to Mr. Major , and there I was told that 't is the desire of the Quakers to meet you , at their house of meeting ; they begin to think you are afraid to meet them , &c. Notwithstanding these T. S. continued in his Chamber , till a Messenger came from Mr. Alders to tell him , that the Quakers were met and reported that T. S. did not dare to come . Thereupon he went and found G. Fox preaching . Esteeming it not lawfull to hear him , he left the room , but entred again , as soon as sermon was done . Then there was some debate where T. S. should stand , and because the Q. would suffer him to take no place but where he should be compassed with Quakers ( as G. Whitehead was also ) he stood where they appointed him . The Dispute . AS soon as T. S. had taken his place , G. W. made a long speech to tell the people the occasion of that dispute : and that the questions to be discussed were these . 1. Whether it were a Damnable sin for him to preach and 2. a Damnable sin for any to hear him . And charging T. S. with folly for saying that Whitehead was an heretick , and yet confessing that T. S. knew not all W's . Opinions . T. S. interposed only this , Mark the word all . I may truly say you hold heresies , if I know only some . When he had done . T. S. said thus Good people ; you come not hither to hear sermons and speeches but a dispute . This man hath troubled you with a long discourse wherein he concludes that I must begin at the latter end ; which of what consequence it is , all you that have skil in any trade or science know as well as I. I shall not trouble you with many words , but ( in short ) shall only entreat you to hear him again , I le read to you his own paper . George Whitehead is this your hand or is it not . W. I acknowledge it my writing . S. I le read his hand-writing , So T. S. read it ( as , t is set down before ) and then askt the people whether he should take the propositions in order as they were placed in Whiteheads paper or not . Who answering Yea Yea. He began thus . 1. That we called Quakers do not open a door to damnable Heresies . 2. That we called Quakers are not Hereticks . Against this your first position I dispute thus . He that writ this Book opens a door to damnable Heresies ( holding forth a Printed Book in his hand , entituled Ishmael and his Mother cast out . ) You writ this Book , therefore you open a door to damnable Heresies . Whitehead replyed , I deny it . S. What do you deny ? W. That you spoke last , I do not open a door to damnable Heresies . S. That is my conclusion : you should deny one of the Premises . Here S. gave him the Book to look on : and then askt him whether he were the Author of that Book or not ? W. I did not write it all : for there is somewhat scribled in it . S. True , here are some things writ on the back-side : I le charge You with nothing but what is printed . Were you the Author of all that is printed in this Book ? Your Name is printed both in the beginning midst , and end of it . W. About three years ago I and four more writ it between us . S. I pray tell me plainly whether you l own it or not . If you l not own it all , then tell me what you will own , what not . Otherwise when I have proved it a most wicked book , you may disown it , and so all my discourse fall to the Ground . 'T is no pleasure to me to speak , or this people to hear vain words . If you will not own it speak . But you may as well disown to morrow all that you say to day ( telling us that words are but wind ) if you disown that which you have printed and affixt your name so oft unto . W. Well . I will own it , prove what thou canst. S. All Papists open a door to damnable heresies . You who writ this book are a Papist . Therefore you who writ this book open a door to damnable heresies . Fox , wisper'd ( but loud enough ) Mark the Major is Vniversall . Whereupon some of the people cryed , down with that black fellow that prompt's behind , but S. said , no let them alone . What do you answer ? W. I deny . I deny . S. What do you deny ? Major or minor ? W. That you spoke last . S. repeated the argument again and W. denyed the conclusion . S. If you go on to deny my conclusions I shall do nothing but repeat my Syllogismes : for my Syllogism proves my conclusion . W. Repeat it then . Here W. Allen a Quaker interposed and made a speech to tell the people that he did not like this way of disputing and bid T.S. dispute plainly without Logick and syllogismes , and vaine termes . S. Whitehead was the first that mentiond major and minor , and used a Syllogisme tother day to prove Scripture was not the word of God Fox said that the Major was universall . It seemes they both understand well enough what belongs to a Syllogisme . And I think I have not spoke a word which the meanest here doth not understand , and that this way of dispute is liked best by all : if not let them speak . People . T is very well , very well . We like this way of dispute best of all . S. My argument is this , All Papists open a door to damnable heresies , you who writ this book are a Papist , Therefore you who writ this booke open a door to damnable heresies . Alderman Blackly . This S. doth nothing but say the same thing again and again . W. I am no Papist . S. You deny my minor : which I prove thus . He who refuseth to take the oath of abjuration is a Papist . He who writ this book refufuseth to take the oath of abjuration . Therefore he who writ this book is a papist . W. I deny all Popery . S. A Papist will say so too . I might charge you with many Popish Doctrines ; but now I only ask whether you will take the oath of abjuration , or deny one of my propositions ? F. Here Fox who had interposed severall times before made a long discourse to prove that 't was unlawfull for a Christian to swear . S. did let him run on to the end , and let W. speak after him . Then askt whether any more of that party had ought else to say ? all being silent T. S. replied . S. I came not hither to dispute with Fox or Allen ; but since you are resolved to dispute three of you against one , I shall reply to you all ( yea if there were three hundred , if you speak but one at once ) Which of my propositions do you deny major or minor ? For you must deny one unless you 'l grant the conclusion that he is a Papist . F. Prove that 't is lawfull to swear . S. That is another question : which I le prove at any seasonable time when ever you shall desire me : but this is no fit season ; for we must now stick close to the questions before us . People . Yes do so . Do so . Here the Majors wife entreated T. S. to lay aside Whiteheads book and dispute from Scripture . Well quoth he I will for a while : so he gave the book to her , and taking a Bible said . S. Turn to 2 Cor. 5.20 . Where you have these words , Now then we are Embassadours for Christ . From which words I prove that 't is an appropriate Ministry ; proper to some only , not common to all : and therefore that every Christian man and woman is not an Embassadour of Christ , as you G. W. told the people tother day . I frame my argument thus . He who pretends to be an Embassadour of Christ and hath no commission to show , but what all the damnable hereticks in the world do or may show , that man opens a door to damnable Hereticks . But you pretend to be an Embassadour of Christ and have no commission to show , but what all the damnable Hereticks in the world do or may show . Therefore you open a door to damnable Hereticks . W. I deny that , prove it . S. What do you deny ? W. I deny that I open a door to damnable Heresie . Here almost all the Company laught , shouted , stamped and hissed . And the Quakers asked T. S. if he was not ashamed of his followers . He answered , That none of them were his followers ; for he came alone , and brought not one with him : That it was their meeting-House , and therefore more likely to be their followers . So after S. ( at the Quakers request ) had entreated the people to be quiet , he asked W. S. Do you profess your self to be an Embassador of Christ , or do you not ? W. Yea I do . S. Then that you may understand my argument the better ( for I perceive you do not yet ken it ) I 'll illustrate it by a similitude . Suppose we being not at peace with Spain , twelve men should go hence to the King of that Nation , and tell him that they are all sent Embassadors to him from the Parliament of England . He asks them for their Commissions . One of them shows him his Commission in Parchment : and the other 11 tell him they have a Commission , but he must beleeve them on their words for they cannot show it . Every one of them exclaiming against this man who showes his Commission , and against the other for counterfeits : crying aloud , that he himself , and he alone is the true Embassador , though he have nothing to prove it by , more then the other ten false . In such a case would you not say that these 11 are Knaves ? Answer . W. and F. and all the rest stood still and said not a word . S. If it be an heinous sin for any man to pretend a Commission from an earthly Prince or Parliament , when he hath none indeed to show , shall not his crime be incomparably more grievous , his condemnation unspeakably more dreadful , who pretends one from the King of Heaven when he hath none to show ? W. I have a commission . S. Show it . Here W. Stood mute : and the people said he was wont to call the Clergie Dumb Dogs ; but now he was Dumb himself . S. Let us hear or see what your commission is . Distinguish that commission which you say you have from that which all the Damnable Hereticks in the World do or may produce for themselves . Here W. made a long speech to the people . To which S. replyed , S. You have told us a long storie , whereof I can make neither head nor foot . I am sure it concerns my argument no more then if you should tell us , they are now selling apples upon the Market-hill . Tell us , or show us what is your commission . W. I have my commission from Christ . S. I do not well hear what you say ; but I think you told us of another commission the other day from that which you speak of now . W. I told you then , that I had it from the power of God , and now that I had it from Christ . S. They differ . For Moses had his commission from the power of God , yet had it not from Christ : who gave no commission to any before the Twelve Apostles . Fox . Christ and the Power of God are all one . S. Well , we will not discuss any impertinent questions . Whether they be one or not , you do not answer my argument . 'T is this . He who pretends to be an Embassador of Christ , and hath no commission to show , but only a talk that he is sent from Christ ; he hath none to show but what damnable Hereticks do or may show . But you pretend to be an Embassadour of Christ , and have no , &c. W. Did ever any Heretick pretend a commission from Christ ? S. Yes Dav. George , Socinus , Arius , and all the Hereticks I ever read of . W. They could not prove it by the effects as I can ; that is , show the people that were converted by them . S. Yes they could . Arians converted a nation of Infidels to Christianity ( which is more then you pretend to ) and his opinions spread so far among them who before his time were Orthodox , that in short time 't was said , All the world seemed Arian . W. But did the Hereticks live good lives ? S. 'T is confessed by all the Ancients that Arius and his Followers did , by St. Austin that Pelagius did : and I remember no Sect-Master that did not . If you have no commission to show but this , you see that all damnable Hereticks do or may show the same : and so my conclusion remains firm , That you open a door to damnable Heresy . W. No . I have proved my commission sufficiently , and you have brought nothing against it . S. Let the people judge of that . You and I come not hither to be judges in our own cause . W. You should prove me an Heretick : which you do not go about to do . S. I shall do that when I come at it . 'T is the second question . We are not yet come so far ; we are yet but at the door of your house . I am proving that you open a door to let in Hereticks . A man may , open the door of his house to let them in , and be none himself . W. I 'll prove that I am none my self , and that from Scripture . S. You come hither to answer , and not to oppose ; but since ( contrary to the rules of dispute ) you resolve to do both at once , I 'll give you leave ; come let us hear your argument . W. 'T is taken out of 2 Pet. 2.1 , 2. But there were false prophets also among the people , even as there shall be false Teachers among you ; who privily shall bring in damnable Heresies , even denying the Lord that bought them , and bring upon themselves swift destruction . S. ( Mark destruction and damnable twice applied to Heresie in one Verse ) W. And many shall follow their pernicious wayes , by reason of whom the way of Truth shall be evil spoken of . Hence I prove that I am no Heretick . Observe here , Hereticks are those who deny the Lord that bought them ; I do not deny the Lord that bought me ; Therefore I am no Heretick . S. I deny your major . All Hereticks do not deny the Lord that bought them . The Apostle there instances in one sort of false Teachers , the worst , who would even deny the Lord . Observe the word even : here is a special brand put upon them . It follows not hence that none are false prophets , none false teachers , or ( as you would have it ) none Hereticks , but those who do deny the Lord that bought them . Prove that . Prove your Major . W. I have Christ within me ; and therefore I do not deny the Lord that bought me . S. You do not prove your major . I beleeve you do not understand my answer , I 'll explain it . Suppose a man lying here sick unto death , will you prove that he is not sick at all , because he hath no plague-sore upon him , or hath no consumption : Because he hath not this or that , or a third disease , therefore hath he none . There be many sorts of Hereticks ( the Apostle here mentions damnable Heresies in the plural ) as there be of diseased persons . Some deny the Lord that bought them , others not . 'Till not follow , that because you are not of one sort of these , therefore you be not of the other . Prove your major if you can ; if not , give me leave to argue against you from this very Text . Whitehead , Fox , and all the rest here stood silent . S. Well , beloved , from this very text that he hath brought to prove he is no Heretick , I will demonstrate ( which I am sorry that I must do , but you see he thrusts me upon it ) that this man is the most damnable Heretick that ever was in the world ; and that since this Epistle was first writ 't was never so litterally and plainly fulfill'd in any person as in him this day . [ Here the people fecht a deep sigh . ] Hear the words again , the two first Verses . There were false prophets also , &c. I begin my Argument from those very words you inlisted on , even denying the Lord that bought them , the worst of Hereticks . He that writ this book [ Ishmael , &c. ] even denyes the Lord that bought him . You writ this book . Therefore you even deny the Lord that bought you . W. I deny the major . S. I 'll read a few lines of it , and then prove my major ; you write this against Mr. Townsend Minister of Norwich . In your second page are these words , Christopher Atkinson , Iames Lancaster , George Whitehead , and Tho. Simonds now in Norwich Goal for their errors and miscarriages — Thee Priest Townsend — thou Dreamer — thou Deceiver — Witch — O thou blinde Guide , thou enemie of God — without Christ and his knowledge , and in Antichrist . W , Is the word Witch there ? S. Thou wouldst bewitch the people with thy lies , p. 3. After these and many more such good words , he comes p. 10. to speak against the B. Trinity , and hath this passage , p. 10. The Three Persons thou dreamest of ( speaking to Mr. T. ) which thou wouldest divide out of one , like a conjurer , are all denyed , and thou shut up with them in perpetual darkness for the lake and the pit . Here the multitude held up their hands and cryed God bless us ! S. See here he saith that he who asserts the three Persons in the ever blessed Trinity is a dreamer and a conjurer , and that that man shall be damned with that Trinity . Fox . We do not deny God therefore we are no Hereticks . Atheists deny God , therefore they are Hereticks . S. This man will be opponent again . Atheists are no Hereticks . F. Are not Atheists Hereticks . S. No . Atheists are worse then Hereticks ; but they are not Hereticks . From these words in Whiteheads book now read , I argue thus , He who denies the three persons in the B. Trinity , and calls him dreamer and conjurer who asserts them , saying that a man who saith there be three persons in the Trinity , shall be shut up with them in perpetuall darkness for the lake and the pit , that man is an Heretick even denying the Lord that bought him . But you G. Whitehead deny the three persons in the blessed Trinity , &c. Fox Here made very long discourse against the Trinity . S. Beloved you see I let him speak all he can say , I do not disturb them in their speaking as they do me , I am willing to hear him or any of them , speak all they can for themselves , but I confess it grieves me to hear them speak against the B. Trinity , and I had far rather hear them talk of somewhat else then make declamations against Almighty God . I answer , That nothing of this your speech is to the purpose . What do you answer to the argument ? I repeat it again . He who denies , &c. Fox run on in another discourse against the three persons . S. I came not hither to hear you to repeat a deall of stuff out of Paul Beast [ who writ against the Trinity . ] I came hither to dispute . If you l answer my argument , do . If not , say you cannot . F. Prove that there be three persons . S. I will . F. But prove it out of Scripture . S. I will so ( 1 Iohn 5.7 . ) There be three that bare record in Heaven ; the Father , the Word , and the Spirit , and these three are one . F. Prove that there be three Persons . S. I will . Allen . Prove them to be three Persons plainly without Logicall termes and vain Philosophy , that we may all understand thee . S. I will , if the Father , Son , and H. Ghost , be three hee s , then they are three Persons ; but they are three hees . F. What do you mean by three hee s ? S. Three things that may be pointed at , he , and he , and he . F. I do not like that argument . S. I would fain give you an argument that you should like , are you three Persons who dispute against me this day , or are you not ? F. Yea we are three Persons t is plain . S. Give me now any argument that pleaseth you to prove it ; and by the very same argument I le prove that there be three Persons in the B. Trinity . F. We are in three places and therefore three Persons . S. The Father , Son , and H. Ghost , have been in three places , and therefore are three Persons . At the baptisme of Christ while Jesus came up , the H. Ghost came down ; in the same moment , one ascended out of the water , the other descended to the water , Matt. 3.16 , 17. And Jesus when he was baptized , went up straightway out of the water ; and loe the Heavens were opened unto him , and he saw the H. Spirit of God descending like a Dove and lighting upon him . And loe a voice from heaven saying this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased . In this verse is mention of God the Father in heaven , God the Son coming out of the water , and the H. Ghost descending on this side Heaven like a Dove . F. Prove there were three persons . S. I do it thus , If Christ was coming up out of the water while the H. Ghost was coming down to the water , then they were in severall places , but Christ was coming up out of the waters , while the H. Ghost was coming down to the water . Therefore they were in severall places . F. They have not flesh and bones as we have . S. What then ? I did not promise to prove them to be men , or you to be Angels or Gods ; but them to be Persons : like you only in personality . F. Persons have flesh and blood as you see we have . S. I prove that all Persons have not flesh and blood . If God should send this day three Angels from Heaven to prove the truth of Christian Religion against you , who deny it ; and one of them should stand at one end of your meeting house , another at the other end , and a third in the midst preaching . Would you not say that these three Angels were three Persons ? Yet they have not flesh and blood . Speak , would you say they are three Persons , or would you not ; All stood mute , at length one of them said that Angels are not Persons . S. Till me what you mean by a person and I le prove that Angels are persons . F. A person is a subsistence , We three are three different susistences . S. So are the Father , Son , and H. Ghost , if they were in different places , they must needs be different subsistences . You see my argument stands firm , notwithstanding your objection I pass to another argument . He who denyes the Bible to be the word of God , saying that to assert Scripture to be the word of God , is one of the deceitfull imaginations which the Priests of this generation have deceived the People with ; that man is an Heretick ; but you deny the Bible to be the word , and tell Mr. Townsend that to assert it , is one of the deceitfull imaginations which the Priests of this generation have deceived the People with ; Therefore you are an Heretick , see here your own book , p. 1. lin. 1. In stead of answering this argument about the word of God , they started back to the former about the Trinitie : and Fox said F. They cannot be three Persons because they were not visible in severall places , I can see that man , and he can see the other . S. If Christ was man , and the H. Ghost was in the form of a Dove , then they were both seen . F. Prove that they were seen in severall places . S. Christ was seen when the H. Ghost was not seen : therefore they both were seen in severall places , one in the water , the other out of it . F. Prove that they were seen . S. If many beheld them both , and this their seeing was upon record ( we saw , and they who see it bare record , and we know that our record is true ) then they were seen . But many beheld them at once ; and this their sight was upon record . F. The H. Ghost could not be seen . S. If he was in the form of a Dove , then he could be seen : but he was in the form of a Dove . F. Not in the form of a Dove , but he was in the likeness of a Dove . Whereat some laughing , he answered again that he was seen , but not visible . S. Then he was visible and invisible . F. Yea. S. Then contradictions may be true at once , then you may be a Quaker and no Quaker , a Papist and no Papist , an Heretick and no Heretick . Hereupon Alderman Blackly who is a Quaker said to T. S. I think 't is time now to leave off . S. I think so too : when he saith contradictions may be true at once . F. I pray take notice all of you that this Book [ Ishmael and his Mother cast out ] about which so much stir hath been , was not writ by me but by this man , pointing at G. Whitehead . S. True , but you defended it , I came to dispute him , if I had known of your disputing I would have brought one of Your Books . THE END . A Letter sent to Mr. E. of Taft four miles from Cambridge a Year since , to which no answer hath been returned . Sir , § 1. SInce you had not so much patience as to hear me t'other day , nor would suffer your daughters to tarry , I now make use of my first hour of leasure to write to you part of that which you might have heard me speak then : Hoping that you and they ( whom I look on as having more breeding then any other his Auditors that I saw ) will not believe him , whom his friends generally call the Tinker , upon his bare word ; but like those noble Bereans , Acts 17.11 . with readiness of minde search the Scripture whether those things were so . 2. I guess at the breeding of most of his followers by this passage ; One of the chief of them , viz. Daniel Angier ( who invites him to that Town , entertains him in his house , lends him his Barn for a meeting place ) when I charged him in that place with maintaining that God was a body , ( viz. that he had hands , feet , a face , &c. like one of us ) saying that he contradicted me in my Churchyard , after I had preacht the contrary from Iohn 4.24 . he told me plainly before all the people , when he saw his Ring-leader T. would not defend it , that I lyed ; whereas my whole Parish are ready to witness the truth of what I said . 3. But to the purpose , I shall in this paper follow that method which the T. commanded me ( though I desired the contrary ) shewing first his false doctrine , and then prove 't is a dangerous sin in him to preach ( as he did publikely , and in the people to hear him . 4. He said in his Sermon that God would lay before us at the day of Judgment 4 books , viz. the book of his remembrance , 2. the book of the creatures , 3. the book of the Law of Moses , 4. the book of the Gospel . By the book of the creatures , he said , he meant this or that cup of bear , or pot of wine whereby a man is drunk , the timber in the wall , &c. 5. I answer , that 't is impossible God should set these ( this book ) before us at the day of Judgement , because the Scripture saith , 2. Pet. 3.10 . that the earth , and the works therein shall be burnt up . If all these shall be burnt up , how shall they be laid before us , pots and cups , &c. Had he said that the Conscience should represent these things unto us , he had spoken sense , but he made the conscience a witness at that bar , and not a book . 6. When I told him that Christians should not be judged at that day by the book of the creatures , but the Gospel ; he answer'd that he did not take his Auditory to be Christians , but unbelievers , and in his Sermon I heard him utter these words , I know that the most of you are unbeleevers . 7. Formerly I have wondred that most of his followers were sad melancholly persons , not looking nor behaving themselves like other folk ; hereafter I shall never wonder , if I see or hear they are mad : for such speeches as these are dreadful and very uncharitable ; tending to no other end , but to make good people run out of their wits , if they have not more then to believe him . For I pray consider that an unbeleever is an Infidel , that is , either a Jew , or a Turk , or a Pagan or an Atheist : persons who shall be damned as sure as that God is true , Mar. 16.16 . with whom 't is unlawful for any Christian to marry , 2 Cor. 6.14 . Now if this famous preacher should descend to particulars , come to you and your three children , and say to each singly , Thou art a Jew , and thou a Turk , thou an Atheist , and thou a Pagan , I am confident you would be ready not only to say , but ( if urged ) to swear that he did you a world of wrong . And you cannot but think the rest of the company in that Barn as ready to profess the same as you . 8. But supose most of them had been unbelievers , yet 't is impossible that he being a stranger , and having never seen half those faces before could know it . For nothing can be the object of any mans knowledge , but that which is as certain as any thing can be . 9. S. Paul calls those Saints , and beloved of God , to whom he wrote , he never called them unbelievers , though some of them were as bad as any of the people in your barn . See Rom. 1.7 . 1 Cor. 1.2 . 2 Cor. 1.1 . Ephes. 1.1 . Phil. 1.1 . Col. 1.2 . 10. And ( as I told him ) all the Protestants beyond the seas call their Auditors in their Sermons , Fideles , that is beleivers : and he is the first man that ever I read or heard of , who preacht among a company of people who were all baptized and professed Christianity , and yet called them unbelievers or infidells . Entreat him from me to consider that of our Saviour , Matt. 7.1 . Judg not , that ye be not judged ; or that of St. Paul which was the first place I urged against him , 1 Cor. 13.1 . Though I speak , with the tongue of men , and of Angels , and have not charity , I am as sounding brass , or a tinkling Cimball . 11. I askt him what Scripture or reason he had to prove that Christians are to be judged at the great day , not only by the Gospell , but also the Law . He cited Iam. 2.12 . and said , that the law of Moses , was there called , the Law of Liberty . I beseech you consult the place , and judg , you 'l finde that not the Law , but the Gospell is there meant , quite contrary to this mans purpose , which I would prove by the context , if I thought it worth the while . This same Law is called the perfect Law Iam. 1.25 . Now the Law of Moses is never termed the perfect Law in the New Testament , for it could not make the comers thereunto perfect , Heb. 10.1 . But the Gospell is termed Liberty , Gal. 5.1.13 . Stand fast in the Liberty , &c. You have been called unto liberty . By which name the Law is no where called in all the holy Scripture . For the more ample confutation of this his Doctrine and exposition I pray read Gall . 4. from the 19th . verse to the end of that chapter . 12. These and severall other strange passages in that little of his Sermon that I heard ( with confuting whereof I shall not trouble you now , because my leasure is not much , and I intend this paper chiefly to a better purpose ) made me sadly think on that place of St. Peter ( at the end of his 2d . Epistle ) that there be some things in St. Pauls Epistles hard to be understood , which they that be unlearned , and unstable wrest , as they do other Scriptures to their own destruction . 13. One of those hard places I take the Tinkers Text to be , 1 Thes. 4.16 . which I did not know to be his Text till next day : otherwise I should have told him that his sermon ( as far as I could hear my self , or gather by others ) did not come any nearer to that Text then to those words , Abraham begat Isaac . 14. Before I leave him let me mind you of two passages which he used to me severall times , and leave you to judg , whether he who spake those words often in that auditory can be a good Christian , or a man in his right wits . First , he called me frequently fool , and giddy pated fellow , &c. Concerning which , see Matt. 5.22 . whosoever shall say to his Brother Racha ( t is a Syriack word signifying giddy-pate ) shall be in danger of the Councell and whosoever shall say thou fool , shall be in danger of hell fire . 15. Hear what St. Iames saith , 1.26 . If any man among you ( though he be a wandring preaching . Tinker , for you must give me leave to call him so , till I know what other name he hath ) seem to be religious and bridle not his tongue , that mans religion is vain . I shall not take upon me to censure him . I told him that I had not called him any such name , nor did I think it fit , but I le entreat him to consider what St. Iude saith 9.10 . that when Michaell the Archangell disputed with the Devill about the body of Moses he durst not bring against him a railing accusation , but said , The Lord rebuke thee . So that if he had been an Archangell , and I a Devill , he should not have used me ( when he had nothing to answer ) as he did . Michaell durst not — See what follows . These speak ●vill of those things which they know not , but what they know naturally , as br●●● beasts in those things they corrupt themselves . 16. This minds me of his 2d . passage which I before hinted , viz. his sayin● severall times that Logick was hell bred and came from hell . A way ( quoth he ) to Oxford with your hell bred Logick . Either this man knowes what Logick is or he knowes not : if he knowes not what it is , and railes against it , he incurre● St. Iudes censure speaking evill of those things which he knowes not , &c. And I must , entreat him to remember the sad words of 2 Pet. 2.12 . That those who as naturall bruit beasts made to be taken and destroyed , speak evill of those things which they understand not , shall utterly perish in their own corruption , and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness . If he know what Logick is , then he knowes t is a Greek word which signifies rationall , Rom. 12 , 1 , or rather the right way of arguing , which he reproved me for not knowing , in his first words to me . Now to blame me for not knowing how to argue ; and at the same time ( almost in the same breath ) to blame me for discoursing Logically , that is ( if he understand himself ) for knowing how to argue , is to speak contradictions . And he that will do so and defend it , is no fit man to be a Preacher , nor to talk with any rationall man , much less to be followed by any wise person . 17. And I pray ask any man in the world that knowes what Logick is , whether it doth not put a difference between a man , and a beast : which proposition I affirmed and he severall times denyed but would not let me prove it . He saying 't was sin that put the difference , whereas nothing but sin can turn him , ( who in one of his books , saith , if you would go to Christ , go as filthy as you can ) or any other man into a beast . 18. I shall leave his Logick , when I have told you , that I am ready to prove , whensoever you desire me , that Christ used Logick in every discourse in the Gospell , and the Apostles in every Epistle ; and that without Logick 't is impossible for any man to understand , much lesse to interpret , either the Epistles , or Gospells . 19. Thus much briefly concerning the T 's errours publisht in the barn tother day , I could name more ( for he delivered much falsity in those few words that I heard ) but I hope this will suffice to let you see clearly , he is not such a true Preacher as you have lately took him to be . For sure if you had not took him to be excellent , you would not have stood up in the barn severall times to defend him , and rebuke me , who offered not to speak a word till all where coming out . And if you had not done so , but would have had half the patience to have heard me as you had for the Tinker , I would not have troubled you with this paper . Without which ( as the case stands ) I know not how to perform that promise which you forced me to make before them all of satisfying you some other time ▪ 20. And now I proceed to the 2d . generall head which I promised to prove viz. That 't is a dangerous sin in him to preach , as he did , and in the people , to hear him . I argued to him thus ; To do that which God strictly forbids all holy men both under the Old and New Testament , is to commit a dangerous sins . But to preach publickly as he did being not ordained , is to do that which God ●rictly forbids all holy men both under the Old and New Testament , Therefore the doing it is to commit a dangerous sin . 21. For the Old Testament , I proved that all Gods people who were not ordained or consecrated to be Priests , were forbid to meddle with any Sacerdotall Office , Num. 18.22 , 23. Ex. 28.1 . And as by these two places so by two examples of Gods dreadfull judgment upon Vzza and Vzzia , who offended against this Law . Vzzia though he were a King ( and so you 'l say might take more upon him then any Subject ) was withstood by the Priests , and forbid to burn incense before the Lord . while the censure was in his hand , the Leprosy arose in his forehead , and continued there , as a brand upon him , as long as he had a day to live , 2 Chron. 26.16 . &c Vzza did but put forth his hand , to take hold of the Ark , to stay it from falling , while the Oxen shook it , and presently the anger of the Lord was kindled against him , and God smote him dead upon the place , 2 Sam 6.6 , 7. To which add the judgments that fell upon Cora and his company , who for offering incense were swallowed up alive by the earth , Num. 16.3.39 , 40 Upon Ieroboam and his family , who for setting up Priests of the meanest of the ▪ People , who were not of the sons of Levi , 1 Kin. 12.13 . Had those fearfull curses denounced against them , c. 14.10 . I will take away the remnant of the house of Ieroboam , as a man takes away dung till it be all gone Him that dyes of Ieroboam in the City shall the Dogs eat , and him that dyes in the Field shall the fouls of the Air eat , for the Lord hath spoken it ▪ 22. For the new Testament I urged Heb. 5.4 . No man takes this office to himself , unless called of God as was Aaron . For there be Evangelical Priests and Altars , as well Legal , which appeares , Heb. 12.10 . And in many other places of that Epistle . Christ was faithfull in all his house , as was Aaron , Heb. 3.2 . And if he was so faithfull in his house , that is the Church , then he appointed some to Minister , as well as Aaron did . As Aaron made Legal Priests , so Christ Evangelical Ministers . As Aaron had an Altar , circumcision , and the passover , so Christ , the Lords Table , Baptisme , and the Eucharist . 23. When he ascended he gave some Apostles , some Prophets , some Evangelists , some Pastors and Teachers , for the perfecting of the Saints , for the work of the Ministry , &c. Till we all come in the unity of the faith ; that is , till the end of the World . He gave some Pastors , therefore not all . Every man may not take upon him to be a Pastor , nor a Prophet , because Christ appointed onely some , Eph. 4.11 . 24. Nor is there any thing more Evident in all the Book of God , than that there ought to be a distinction of Sheepheards and flocks , Learners and Teachers , some that are charged with the cure of Souls , others that are charged to attend and obey , Heb. 13.17 . Some that are separated from the affaires of this life , that they may give themselves wholly to reading , 1 Tim. 4.5 . to exhortation to Doctrine , and therefore are to be partakers of other mens temporals , that others may be partakers of their Spiritualls : Others to plow , and sow , and harrow the ground , and use other lawfull trades , working with , their hands the thing that is good , that they may have to give to him that needeth . 25. I beseech you to lay aside passion , and consider some day when you retir● from your worldly affaires , whether it be possible , that that power which at fo●● severall times , upon four severall occasions , our Blessed Saviour did mentio● and give to the Apostles , could expire with their persons . Some things o● great concernment he mentions but once in all the Scripture ( as upon wha● heads chiefly we shall be examined at the day of judgment and the speech tha● he will then make Mat. 25.34 . ) And when he who was the Wisdome of the Father , names a thing not only four times , but upon four notable occasions , can you imagine that matter a trifle , and intended only for some very few years ? The thing which I mean , is the power not only of preaching the Gospell , and administring the Sacraments , but also of remitting , and retaining sins , which was mentioned by Christ . 1. Upon occasion of St. Peters confessing him , promising , and foretelling that he would enstate it upon the Apostles Matt. 16.19 . 2ly . Upon occasion of exemplifying that necessary truth , that the cheif end of Christs coming into the World was to save that which was lost , Matt. 18.11 . He speaks of the institution of this power as evidently instrumentall to that design , 3ly . Immediately before his final departure out of this World , he enstated them initially in this ghostly power Ioh. 20.21.22 . with significant ceremonies and important circumstances , saying , As , my Father hath sent me , so send I you . He breathed on them and said , receive the H. Ghost . Lastly immediately after his Ascention , sending the great promise of his Father , Luk. 24.49 . T is absurd to think that this power thus insisted on by Christ , thus given to the Apostles , was to expire with their persons ; especially considering that at his bestowing it on them , He promised to be with them , to the end of the World , Matt. 28.20 . 26. I hope you l not wonder I mention this power which our Saviour gave his Ministers of remitting and retaining sins ; when I believe this very Tinker arrogates it to himself , as well as the power to preach . For in the midst of our forementioned dispute about his false doctrines , he breaking out into very many impertinent di●erting questions ( as asking me when I was converted ? what were the signes ? ) at length he demanded what were the particular sins which I confessed to Almighty God when I last received the body and blood of Iesus Christ ? As if I were bound to confesse my private sins , not only to him ( when , as I told him , God hath not made you my Confessour ) but also to the meanest of all the vulgar in the Country . 27. But to proceed . The Apostle asks Rom. 10.15 . how shall they preach unles they be sent ? He puts the question , as if he should say , what man in his wits can think it lawfull ? who that hath read one leafe either of the law or Gospell ? 28. Considering the examples not only of Vzza , and Vzzia , under the Old Testament , but in the New of Matthias : who had been as well as any man else , a witness of the Doctrine , and life , and miracles , of our B. Saviour , yet was not by any thought fit to be termed an Apostle till he had a speciall call to that office Act , 1.23 . 29. 2ly . Considering that Ioseph sirnamed Barsabas , was a witness to all this as well as Matthias , yet never exercised the Apostleship ( though it seems the Church of Christ esteemed him fit for it ) because he was not ordained thereto ; ●nymore then many others who where educated in the schole of Christ as well ●s the best . 30. 3ly . Considering that the most Blessed Iesus himself , the only begotten son of God , often profest that he came not without being sent Io. 17.8.18 . Nor preacht any thing , but what he heard , nor did any thing , but what he was commanded : and this in a time when there was confessedly very great necessity of Reformation . And then with what face ( other then brazen ) can any man now justifie the doing these things of himself , who neither pretends that he is the Son of God , nor yet that he seeth such a necessity of Reformation . 31. Lastly considering that not only those Christians who lived neerest the times of our Saviour ( who probably might know more of his institution than t is possible we at this distance should ) but all succeeding ages for 1600. Years have had a Clergy and a discipline ; Certainly , Sir , we have sins as great as any of them , the old sins to mortifie ( I heartily wish to God we had no new ones too , then unheard of ) and therefore certainly we stand in as much need of Physicians as any of them did ; of all the blessed remedies and wholesome medicines against them , which our good God hath appointed . 32. I might adde many other places of Scripture , as 2. Cor. 5.19 . God hath reconciled us to himself by Christ Jesus and given to us the Ministery of reconciliation . Now then we are Embassadours for Christ . Wherein I entreat you to Observe that he saith , committed to us the ministry of reconcilation , here then is an appropriate Ministry not common to all the vulgar . We are Embassadours . T is limited to some few by vertue of a commission . All cannot be Embassadours The Church is a body , and all cannot be ears , or eyes , 1. Cor. 12.14.15.16 . 33. But I must not omit the answer which your friend made to , Rom. 10.15 . he said he was sent by the Church of Christ at Bedford . To which I replyed . 1. That , that which he called the Church of Christ at Bedford , could not send him , or give him power to preach , &c. Because nothing can give that which it self hath not . That Church consisting only of women and a few Lay-men is not in indeed a Church of Christ ; none of them hath power to preach or administer the Sacraments , and therefore none of them can give the Tinker power to preach and administer the Sacraments . 34. 2. The Church of Antioch was in all probability very numerous in those dayes when miracles were ordinary , and three thousand were converted in one place at one sermon : and yet in all the Scripture you shall not find by any word , the least sign that those many people who were thus converted at Antioch did joyn together in Church-duties and ordinances ( as the Lords supper , which the primitive and best Christians received every day Act. 2.42.46 . and the people of your Town have not desired , as I hear , these fourteen years ) untill Barnabas and Paul had been with them . When these two who were ordained Ministers of the word came unto them , then ( and not till then ) were the Christians at Antioch termed a Church . Act. 11. from . the 20th . verse to the 27th . 35 I confess 't is both lawful and laudable for private Christians to endeavour the conversion of any that be indeed Infidels or Unbelievers to the truth of the Gospel , or to teach children or servants the Catechisme , &c. ( and if this Tink●● had done no more , staid at Bedford , and taught his Family the Lords Prayer , the Apostles Creed , the Ten Commandments , and the Doctrine of the Sacraments , which things few of his followers in these parts can endure to hear of : or if he had followed S. Pauls advice , 1 Thes. 4.11 . studied to be quiet , and done his own business , I should have nothing to have said against him ) 'T is lawful for private Christians to do what they can to convert Jews , or Turks , or Heathens , or Atheists , that is , to prepare stones for the building of the Church ( as the antient Ecclesiastical stories tell us that Frumentius and AEdesius did in India , and the captive maid in Iberia ) but after they be converted , after they are baptized , to unite these together and make up a building , to assemble them in an Ecclesiastical bodie , to usurp the Pulpit and that power which our Saviour distributed , when he said All power is given to me both in Heaven and Earth , go ye therefore and preach : This is such a piece of presumption as we read not in the Acts of the Apostles ( nor in any other Ecclesiastical story that I have seen ) that any of the primitive Christians were ever guilty of . But all this your T. hath been guilty of , and much more . For he hath not only intruded into the Pulpits in these parts , and caused the people of your Town to hate their lawful Minister , [ Mr. Iohn Ellis sen . ] but ( as he told me ) encouraged them to proceed so far as to cudgel him , and break open the Church doors by violence . I wonder what example or precept in the Scripture he hath for this . When he hath read Tit. 3.2 . I desire him to see his doom , 1 Pet. 4.15 . where {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , ( that is one that thrusts himself in to preach in another mans parish against his consent ) is reckoned by the H. Ghost among no honester men then a Thief and a Murderer . This will be a sad Text for him , when the books shall be opened before him at the great Judgement day . 36. And here I give you under my hand what I professed to the T 's face , that if I could see any reason to draw me out of the true ancient Catholick and Apostolick Church into which I was baptized ( whereof the Church of England is the soundest part , as I am ready to make appear against the Papists , and all other new and old Schismaticks and Hereticks their Confederates ) If I say , I could see any reason to draw me out of that Church into your Schisme , who encourage the Tinker to preach , I see not what should stop me from running into the worst Sect in the world ; from being an Anabaptist , or Ranter , or Quaker , or Antiscripturist , or what not . 37 Give me leave to tell you a storie , ( you gave the Tinker leave to tell you several of things done at Bedford ) T is out of S. Augustines Notes on Iohn 1.2 , 3. All things were made by him . S. Austin saith , that a Manichee & another being troubled with Flies , and disputing , one of them said , he thought that our good God could not be the Creator of such troublesome Insects . Why then replied the other , who made the Bee which is somewhat bigger , and hath a sting ? He yielded that the Devil made it . From a Bee they proceeded to a Locust , from a Locust to a Lizard , so to a Bird , to a Sheep , to an Oxe , to an Elephant , to a Man . And thus was the silly man deluded into a perswasion that he himself was not Gods Creature . Just such a dreadful Conclusion do most of these people make , who think it lawful for a Tinker , ( or a man not ordained ) to preach , are they not ready to pull down the Church walls to mend the High wayes ? ( you know who desired it . ) To take the Bells out of the Steeple , and carry them in Butter-panniers to London , and sell them , ( you know who did it . ) Do they not cry that Sacraments are needless , meer empty Ceremonies ? Preaching Foolishness ? Paul and Barnabas , the sons of the Prophets , Bablers ? Are they not ready to cry down Faith for a fancy ? All Clergie-men as Limbs of Antichrist ? Devotion as an emasculating trick of Machiavel . In a word if these men may prevail , down go Presbyters as well as Bishops , Universities , Schools , Hospitals , All thoughts of God , All Reverence to his Word , and all that is Holy . And instead of these , in rusheth Carneades's Philosophy , that gain is Godliness : and then the poorest hireling in the Town will soon have as much land as you , or your Heir . For men will turn from being an orderly Common-wealth to be a Community of Bears Tygers , to delight in tearing and devouring each other ; from living in civil conversation , they come to joyn hands in that grand piracy , wherein the stronger swallow up the weaker , upon no other pretence of right or reason imaginable , but because they are the stronger : saying with the Atheists , Wisd. 2 . 1● . Our strength is in the law of Iustice , and that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth . 41. But I see this paper swells above the ordinary extent of a letter and therefore I shall draw to a conclusion , when I have spoke to one particular , which is the common talk of this County , viz. That one of your daughters being troubled in mind you sent for this Tinker to quiet her conscience . 42. Sr. I know you are a man of so much prudence , that if her or your temporall life were shaken with a palsy , or the title to a parcell of your visible estate questioned by some potent-man ; you would not think it enough to employ a cheap Atturney or an ordinary Agent , or send for some country dame to administer her kitchin physick , but the ablest counsellors and the skilfullest Doctors should be posted to , and exceeding much wariness and diligent attendances made use of : and all thought little enough . For truly a mans life and health , and sometimes his estate is worth all this : and in some cases it needs it all . But then , I beseech you , do you beleeve your immortall soul ( for which Jesus laid down his precious bloud ) the only triflle and toy about you ? Are there not a thousand dangers , and a million of difficulties and innumerable possibilities of miscarriage ? And how then comes it to passe that you think a Tinker or mean ignorant person can serve here ? If a man or woman , be sick saith St. Iames 5.14 . let him send for the Presbyters of the Church and let them pray over him . 'T is needfull certainly to have such guides ( St. Iames knew which were best ) to steer the vessell when a stormy passion or a violent imagination ( despair or presumption ) transport a man , to awaken his reason , and quicken his devotion . 43. And truely considering how like beasts of the heard , men , both of high and low degree do live in this age , t is but reason that there should be a deal of retirement and initiation , industry and instruction to educate such a person , to tame the beast within him , to subjucate his lower soul , to enlighten his naturall and ●ctuate his spirituall powers , to clear his eyesight that he may have a plain prospect of those gaities which the worldling dotes on , and a true sense of the realities above to instruct his understanding and judgment that he may be able to resolve the many abstruce and intricate cases of conscience , to confute the infinit● company of impudent hereticks and gainsayers ( which St. Paul notwithstandin● your anger looks upon as the preachers duty Tit. 1.9 . ) to prepare him for so high and difficult an employment . 44. I would now use some arguments drawn from reason and common sense to prove t is unlawfull for this Tinker to preach ; but supposing that you believe Scriptures to be the word of God , I think such arguments needless . 45. Remember that he who commits Ieroboams sin , doth justly incur Ieroboams punishment , and to hear such a person as Ieroboam set up , is to commit Ieroboams sin : For if such men had no hearers , no applauders , they would soon lay preaching aside ; To hear him then is to partake of his sin , which the Apostle bids us beware of Rev. 18.4 . Eph. 5.7 . Besides , he that hears such throwes his Soul unnecessarily upon temptations and out of the promise of Gods blessings , for no blesing is promised to any , but while he is doing that which God commands : now he commands us to hear our Sheepheards Io. 10.1 . to hear Moses and the Prophets , Matt. 16.31 . and those that sit in Moses chair , Matt. 23.3 . But never commanded us to hear the lowest of the people , or men not ordained . To this I might add that the flock must be under an oversight . Act. 18 . 23.-20.28 . 1 Pet. 5.2 . 1 Thes. 5.12 . Heb. 13.17.24 . A mans own pastor hath a more speciall dispensation of the grace of God , Eph. 3.2 . and a pastors more especial tye to his flock than another , argues that they are more especially tyed to him . He is appointed to feed them ; they therefore to hear him . 46. I shall commend you to the work of Gods grace when I have entreated you to consider the words of our Saviour , Iohn . 10.5 . the sheep of Christ will not hear the voice of a stranger , but will fly from him . The sheep here , are those who shall stand at the right hand of Jesus in the day of judgment , Mat. 25.33 . ( as the T. confessed when I urged this text against him ) And that by a stranger is meant an intruder into the sacerdotall office appears by comparing this place with , Num. 16 . 40-1.51-3.10-18.7 . And with other texts where this word is interpreted to be one that is not a Levite one not ordein'd by imposition of hands as the Preachers were , not only in the first and best times of Christianity , 1. Tim. 4 15-5 . 22-2.22-3.10.6.13.14 . 2. Tim. 1.6 . Tit. 1.5 . but also ever since , in all places all ages till this . 47 And now , Sir let me beseech you for Gods sake , for Christs sake , for his Churches sake , for your reputation sake , for your childrens sake , for your Countrys sake , for your own immortall souls sake , to consider these things sadly and seriously : not to think a Tinker more infallible then the pu●● spouse of Christ , the Church of all ages mentioned in your creed , but to search the Scriptures 〈◊〉 Canon whereof you receive meerly upon the authority of that Church and to foresee what will be 〈◊〉 sad consequence both to the souls and bodies and estates of you and your children in following 〈◊〉 strangers , Entreating you to peruse also this enclosed printed paper against Lay-preachers , I bes●●● the Lord to give you and yours understanding in all things : remaining . Your faithfull Servan● in Christ Jesus , Caucat . May . 
A64451	----	A testimony concerning the life, death, trials, travels and labours of Edward Burroughs that worthy prophet of the Lord who dyed a prisoner for the testimony of Jesus, and the word of God, in the city of London, the 14th of the 12th month, 1662 / [by] F.H. Howgill, Francis, 1618-1669. 1662 Approx. 55 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 14 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A64451 Wing T809 ESTC R34657 14545998 ocm 14545998 102563 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A64451) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 102563) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1075:2) A testimony concerning the life, death, trials, travels and labours of Edward Burroughs that worthy prophet of the Lord who dyed a prisoner for the testimony of Jesus, and the word of God, in the city of London, the 14th of the 12th month, 1662 / [by] F.H. Howgill, Francis, 1618-1669. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. Coale, Josiah, 1632?-1668. Fox, George, 1624-1691. [2], 25 p. Printed and are to be sold by William Warwick, London : 1662. Signed: Fran. Howgil. Includes contributions by George Whitehead, Josiah Coale and George Fox. Imperfect: pages stained and with print show-through. Reproduction of original in the Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. Quakers -- Biography. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A TESTIMONY Concerning the Life , Death , Trials , Travels and Labours of Edward Burroughs That worthy PROPHET OF THE LORD Who dyed a Prisoner for the Testimony of Jesus , and the Word of God , in the City of London , the 14 th of the 12 th Month , 1662. F. H. London , Printed , and are to be sold by William Warwick , 1662. The Life and Death of Edward Burroughs that worthy Prophet of the Lord , &c. SHall days , or months , or years wear out thy Name , as though thou hadst had no being ? Oh nay ! Shall not thy noble and valiant Acts , and mighty Works which thou hast wrought through the power of him that separated thee from the Womb , live in generations to come ? Oh yes ! the children that are yet unborn , shall have thee in their mouths , and thy Works shall testifie of thee in generations , who yet have not a being , and shall count thee blessed . Did thy Life go out as the snuff of a Candle ? Oh nay ! thou hast penetrated the hearts of many , and the memorial of the just shall live for ever , and be had in renown among the children of Wisdom for ever ; for thou hast turned many to righteousness , and shall shine as a Star of God in the Firmament of God's Power , for ever and ever ; and they that are in that , shall see thee there , and enjoy thee there , though thou be gone away hence , and can no more be seen in mutability ; yet thy Life , and thy Spirit shall run parallel with Immortality . Oh Edward Burroughs ! I cannot but mourn for thee , yet not as one without hope nor faith , knowing and having a perfect testimony of thy well-being in my heart , by the Spirit of the Lord ; yet thy absence is great , and years to come shall know the want of thee . Shall I not lament as David did for a worse man than thee , even for Abner when in wrath he perished by the hand of Joab without any just cause , though he was a valiant man ? David lamented over Abner , and said , Dyed Abner as a fool dyeth ? ( Oh nay ! he was betrayed of his Life ) even so hast thou been bereaved of thy life by th● hand of the Oppressor , whose habitations are full of cruelty . Oh my soul , come not thou within their secret , for thy blood shall be required at the hands of them who thirsted after thy life ; and it shall cry as Abels , who was in the Faith ; even so wert thou ; it shall weigh as a ponderous Milstone upon their necks , and shall crush them under , and be as a Worm that gnaweth and shall not dye : When I think upon thee , I am melted into tears of true sorrow ; and because of the want that the Inheritance of the Lord hath of thee , my substance is even as dissolved : Shall I not say as David said of Saul and Jonathan when they were slain in Mount Gilboa , The beauty of Israel is slain upon the high places : Even so wast thou stifled 〈◊〉 nasty holes and prisons , and many more , who were precious in the eyes of the Lord : And surely precious wast thou to me , oh dear Edward , I am distressed for th●● my brother ; very pleasant hast thou been to me , and my love to thee was wonderful , passing the love of women : Oh thou whose Bow never turned back , neither Sword empty from the blood of the slain , from the slaughter of the mighty ; who made Nations and Multitudes shake with the Word of Life in thy mouth , and wast very dreadful to the enemies of the Lord , for thou didst cut like a Rasor ; and yet to the seed of God brought forth , thy words dropped like Oyle , and thy lips as the honey-comb . Thou shalt be recorded among the valiant of Israel , who attained to the first degree through the power of the Lord , that wrought mightily in thee in thy day , and was worthy of double honor , because of thy Works sake ; thou wast expert to handle thy Weapon , and by thee the mighty have fallen , and the slain o● the Lord hath been many ; many have been pricked ●o heart through the Power of the Word of Life , and coales of fire from thy Life come forth of thy mouth , that in many a thicket , and among many bryars and thorns it ca●e to be kindled , and did devour much stubble that cumb●●ed the ground , and stained the Earth . Oh how certain a sound did thy Trumpet give ! And how great an Al●rm didst t●ou give in thy day , that made the Host of the uncircum●●sed grea●ly distressed ! What man so val●ant , though as Goliah of Gath , would not thy Valour have encountered with , while many despised thy youth ! And how have I seen thee with ●hy sling and thy stone ( despised Weapons as to war with ) wound the mighty , and that which hath seemed contemptible to the Dragons party , even as the Jaw-bone of an Asse , with it thou hast slain the Philistines heaps upon heaps , as Sampson . Thou hast put to thy hand to the Hammer of the Lord , and has● often fastened Nailes in the heads of the Lambs Enemies , as D●borah did to Sisera ; and many a rough stone hast thou polished and squared , and made it fit for the building of God ; and much knotty Wood hast thou hewed in thy day , which was not fit for the building o● God's House , Oh thou Prophet of the Lord , and shalt for ever be recorded in the Lambs Book of Life , among the Lords Worthies , who have followed the Lamb through great tribulation , as many can witness for thee from the beginning ; and at last hath overcome , and found worthy to stand with the Lamb upon Mount Sion the Hill of God , as I have often seen thee , and thy heart well tuned as a Harp , to praise the Lord , and to sound forth his great salvation , which many a time hath made glad the hearts of them that did believe , and strengthen their faith and hope . Well , thou art at res● ; and bound up in the bundle of Life ; and I know tears was wiped away from thy eyes , because there was no cause of sorrow in thee : For I know thou witnessed the old things done away , and there was no curse but blessings were poured upon thy head as rain , and peace as a mighty shower , and trouble was far from thy dwelling , though in the outward man trouble on every side , and hath had a greater share in that , fo● the Gospel sake ( though a youth in thy time ) th●n many besides : But now thou art freed from that , and h●st obtained a Name through Faith , with the Saints in Light. Well , hadst thou more to give up then thy Life for the Name of Jesus in this World ? Nay ; and to seal thy Testimony committed unto thee with thy blood as thou hast often said in thy day , which shall remain as a Crown upon thee for ever and ever . And now thou art freed from the ●empt●tions of him who had the power of death , and art freed from thy outward Enemies , who hated thee because of the Life that dwelt in thee , and remaineth at the right hand of God , where there is joy and pleasure for evermore in the everlasting Light , which thou hast often testified unto , according to the Word of Prop●esie in thy heart , which was given unto ●hee by the Holy Ghost , and art at rest in the perfection thereof , in the beauty of Holiness ; yet thy Life and thy Spirit I feel as present , and have unity with it , and in it , beyond all created and visible thing● , which are subje●t to ●utation and change ; and thy Life shall enter into other● , to testifie unto the same truth , which is from everlasting to everl●sting ; for God hath raised , and will raise up children unto Abraham , of them that have been as dead stones , whose Po●er is Almighty , great in his people in the midst of their Enemies . This same Edward Burroughs was born in the Barrony of Kendal , in the County of Westmoreland , of honest Parents , who had a good report among their Neighbours for upright and honest dealing among men , who brought up Edward in his youth in learning and good Education as the Countrey doth afford . He was a very understanding Boy in his youth , and his knowledge and understanding did far exceed his years : He had the Spirit of a man when he was but as a child ; and I may say , grey h●irs was upon him when he was but a youth ; for he was cloathed with Wisdom in his Infancy ; for I had perfect knowledge of him from a youth . He was inclinable from his youth upwards , to Religion , and the best way , always minding the best things , and the best and nearest way of Worship to the Scriptures of Truth , and always did accompany the best men , who walked in godliness and honesty , insomuch I have often admired his discreet carriage , and his great understanding of the things of God : He was never known to be addicte● to any vic● or malignity , or bad behaviour , neither followed any evil course of life from his childhood , but feared the Lord , and walked uprightly according to the light and knowledge received in all things . In his natural disposition he was bold and manly , dexterous and fervent ; and what he took in hand , he did it with his might ; loving , kind and courteous , merciful and flexible , and easie to be entreated . His whole delight was always ●mong good people , and to be conferring and reading the Scriptures , and little to mind any sports or pastimes , which there is an infidency unto in youth ; but his very strength was bended after God , and was separated ( I may say ) from his Mothers Womb , and fitting for the Works sake whereunto he after was called . And when it pleased the Lord to raise up the a●cient horn of salvation among us , who were reckoned in the North part of England , even as the out casts of Israel , and as men destitut● of the great knowledge which some seemed to enjoy ; yet there was more sincerity and true love among us , and desires ●fter the living powerful presence of God then was among many in that day , who seemed to make a great flourish , who ran into heaps and forms , but left the Cross behind them , and indeed were strangers to it ; God out of his everlasting love did appear unto us according to the desire of our hearts who longed after him , when we had turned aside from the hireling Shepherds T●nts , we found him whom our souls loved , and God out of his great love , and great mercy , sent one unto us immediately by his Power , a man of God , one of ten thousand , to instruct us in the way of God more perfectly , who laid down the sure foundation , and declared the acceptable year of the Lord ; who indeed made the mourners to re●oice , and the heavy hearted glad , which yet was terrible to all hypocrites , and all formal profession ; which testimony reached unto all our consciences , and entered into the inmost part of our hearts , which drove us to a narrow search , and to a diligent inquisition concerni●g our st●te , which we did come to see through the Light of Christ Jesus which was testified of , and found it to be even what it was testified of ; and the Lord of heaven and earth we found to be near at hand ; and as we waited upon him in pure silence , our minds out of all things , his dreadful power and glorious Majesty , and heavenly presence appeared in our Assemblies , when there was no language , tongue nor speech from any creature ; and the Kingdom of heaven did gather us , and catch us all as in a Net , and his heavenly power at one time did draw many hundreds to Land , that we did come to know a place to stand in , and what to wait in , and the Lord did appear daily to us , to our astonishment , amazement , and great admiration , insomuch that we often said one unto another with great joy of heart , What , is the Kingdom of God come to be with men ? And will he take up his Tabernacle amongst the sons of men , as he did of old ? And what , shall we that were reckoned as the outcasts of Israel , have this honor of glory communicated amongst us , which were but men of small parts ▪ and of little abi●i●i●s , in respect of many oth●rs as amongst men ? Howbeit , thus it seemed good unto the Lord to choose the weak things , and the foolish things of this World , as to the aspect of me● , that no flesh might glory , that no man because of his parts might glory , or because of his streng●h or wisdom might glory , but that the glory which is his might onely be given to him ; unto whom be the glory of all his Works for ever and ever , Amen . And from that day forward our hearts were knit unto the Lord , and one unto another in true and fervent love , not by any external Covenan● , or external Form ; but we entered into the Cove●ant of Life with God , and that was as a strong obligation or bond upon all ou● spirits , which united us one unto another ; and we met together in the unity of the spirit , and of the bond of peace , treading down under our feet all rea●oning , questioning , debating and contending about Religion , or any part or parts , or practice or practices thereof , as to any e●ternal thing ; and we waited at time and times , as God did grant u● opportunities , and the more we had a●d could obtain from our necessary occasions of this present life , the better we were , and the more we were confirmed and strengthened in our hope and faith ; and holy resolutions were kindled in our hearts as a fire ▪ which the Life kindled in us to serve the Lord while we had a being , and ●o make mention of his Name and Power whilst we did live , and to hold forth that Testimony which was committed to us , in the sight of men and Nations , by doctrine , by practice , by a holy conversation ; and mightily did the Word of God grow amongst us , and the desires of many were after the Name of the Lord. Oh happy day ! Oh blessed day ! the memorial of which can never pass out of my mind . And thus the Lord in short did form us to be a people for his praise in our generation . Howbeit after all this and much more , which time would fail me to write of , ( neither is the purpose of my spirit bent that way at this time ) we did come through very great tribulations , extream distresses , great perplexity , and passed out oftentimes hungry , and hard put to it both within and without ; yet such wa● our love to the Lord , and such fervency in our he●rts , that we rather chused to dye , and to undergo every difficulty , than to dishonor or deny the Name of Christ in the midst of suffering ; because of that taste that we had of his goodness and immortal life revealed in our hearts , this young man of whom I am speaking , had his share , though but a youth at that time , of 16. or 17. years of age , because of the Truth which crossed all the Worlds way ; his nearest Relations , even his own Parents cast him off as an Alien , and turned him out from their House , as not to have any part or portion therein as a son , nay , not so much as a hired servant , which this young man bore very patiently , without murmuring or complaining , having a taste of that then , which was better than all the World ; and through conversing with his people , and among them , the Spirit of the Lord came upon him , and the Spirit of Wisdom and understanding entered into his heart , and the spirit of knowledge and sound judgment came to be seated in his reins , and the Spirit of Prophesie came upon him like as it did upon many more , through the Holy Ghosts power and operation ; and he spake of the wonderful things of God amongst them that believed , and was one of the first among us which the Lord opened the mouth of , to shew forth his praise , and to speak of the things of his Kingdom to as many as he met with , who waited for the consolation of Israel , for the riches of the Gentiles , and to as many as desired and hoped after eternal life : At last the Lord singled him out , & commanded him to go forth into Countreys unknown to him , as he did some more besides , upon whom he laid a necessity to preach the Gospel freely , without money , without price , without tythes , augmentations , gifts or rewards , and in that he was as faithful a man , none exceeding him in his generation ; for those things were an abhorrency to his heart ; & where he met with any such hireling Shepherds , & deceitful workers which had gull'd the Nations , and cheated the people for dishonest gain , and kept them in blindness , the indignation of the Lord was kindled in his heart , and the sword of the Lord was very sharp in his hand ; and whomsoever he met with which walked after this sort , they were sure to feel the weight of his Weapon , and the force of his blow , by which many have been deeply wounded , that they have grinned like Dogs on him , as greedy Dogs indeed , because of their present wound & blow that he did give them ; and though he was but young in years , yet he was full of fortitude and true valour : The Lord often times when he exercised him in such War as this , hath filled his Qui●er full of polished shafts , and made his Bow to abide in strength , and he was as dextrous and as ready handed , as any that I knew in his day , against the Dragon and his Power , against the Beast and his followers ; and indeed he was very even-handed , and had a special good arm , and seldome mist the Mark : God had fill'd his mouth with arguments , so that he hath often made a breach , a breach in the face of an Host. And it was my lot ( which I cannot but say fell in a good ground ) to be his companion and fellow-labourer in ●he Work of the Gospel , whereunto we were called for many years together : And oh ! when I consider , my heart is broken ; how sweetly we walked together for many Months & Years ! in which we had perfect knowledg of one anothers hearts , & perfect unity of spitri , not so much as one cross word , or one hard thought of discontent ever rose ( I believe ) in either of our hearts , fo● 10 years together , but our souls were bound up in unity and peace , having the frame of our hearts bent after one and the self same thing , to wit , the propagation of that Truth by which liberty was obtained , and salvation received through Jesus Christ the true Light of the World , seeing through his Light ●he whole World to lye in wickedness ; a necessity laid upon this person of whom I am speaking , being constrained by the Spirit of the Lord , by which he was made an able Minister of the everlasting Gospel , to preach repentance , conversion , salvation and remission of sins ; and accordingly he went forth in ●he Name and Power of the Lord Jesus the Saviour of mankind , and was an able Minister of the glad tydings of salvation , in many , or most parts of this Land ; and also he travelled thorow again and again , the whole Nation of Ireland , and in some part of Scotland , and some part of Flanders ; and his Ministry ●as made effectual through the Almighty Power of God , in turning many from darkness to light , and from the power of Satan to God ; there are many thousands who are living in the body , and alive in the Truth , who can in the Spirit of the Lord bear testimony to the power and verity of his Ministry , in many Countreys where he travelled ; for he laboured much in divers places , even in the heat of the day , though he began early in the morning ; and in the beginning of his travels and labours , it was his share to break up rough places and un●illed ground ; & to walk amongst many bryars and thorns , which scratched , and pricked , and teared ; and travelled with some other , not without great opposition ; and he often trod the pathes and wayes which had not been occupied in the Truth ; and where darkness had the Dominion , and was as a covering , he brake through as an armed man , not minding the opposition , but the victory , and the good of all souls ; though to my knowledg his sufferings and trya●s hath not been small , nor his exercise a little , on the right hand , and on the left , in travels often , often times buffered , sometimes knocked down by unreasonable men , who had not faith , loaded with lyes , slanders , calumnies and reproaches , often in weakness , yea in deaths often , in watchings , fastings and temptations often ; in straits and necessities ; in perils among rude multitudes , in perils in Idol-Temples , in perils in Streets and Markets , where the Lord did move him often to go in the beginning of his time ; besides the exceeding weight of service from Weeks end to Weeks end , in so much that he had seldome many hours of repose ; and of●en suffered by those spirits who lost their first love , and rose in opposition . He was very diligent and faithful , true-hearted and valiant , and the yoke at last came to be easie unto him , though no ease at all in the body as to the outward man ; for he made the Work of the Lord his whole business , without taking so much liberty unto himself , or about any outward occasion in this World , as to spend one Week to himself ( to my knowledg ) these ten years : He had ventured himself often for the Bodies sake ; and a great care I know was in his heart , that them that he had ministred unto , and others that had believed in the same truth , might thrive and prosper , and might walk as becometh the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He was of a manly Spirit in the things of God ; he hath engaged himself often upon the Lords account singly in great Disputes , when there were many opposers ; he hath stood in the door , and in the gap , against all his Enemies , for the worthy Name of God , and taken the whole weight of thing● upon his o●n shoulders , that others might be eased , though often to ●he weakening , and almost destroying of the outward man , yet doing all in love to the Lord , and for his peoples sake ; he did it with chearfulness , and it was a grief to him if any opportunity was missed of doing good : He was a man of no great learning in natural Tongues , which men so much applaud ; yet indeed his heart was full of matter , and his Tongue was as the hand of a ready Scribe and yet he had the tongue of the learned , having had experiment of the Work of the Lord , and being acquainted with many conditions which God had carried him through , he could speak a word in season unto all who declared their conditions unto him ; of otherways in his publike Ministry he was very plausible and elegant in his speech , & indeed had the tongue of a learned Orator to declare himself to the understandings & consciences of all men with whom he conversed , by which many received great profit , and their understandings came to be opened ; for his words ministred grace to the Heare●● , and his words were forcible and very pleasant , as apples of Gold in pictures of silver . This young man of whom I am speaking , was one of the first ( with some others ) who came to the City of London , where he met with no small opposition both from professors of divers forms , and also prophane , who heeded no Religion at all , and the way of Truth seemed contemptible , and without form or comeliness to them all , which made the opposition so great , and the labour so hard , that notwithstanding it pleased the Lord to reach unto the Consciences of many , and many were prickt to the heart , so that they cried out , what shall we do to be saved ? And God made his Ministry very effectual to the conversion of many in the City of London , whereby a great change was wrought in the hearts of many , & many hundreds brought to know the Lord their Teacher , which are as seals unto the Word of Life through him unto this day . And many hundreds , I may say thousands , heard the lively Word of God declared by him , and were convinced of the way of Truth , though still remaining in the disobedience to that of God in their own hearts unto which he declared ; and many have lost their day which they had of hearing and receiving the things of God ; for now he is taken away which might have been a help unto them while they had time ; and all such are not worthy of him . He continued in this City very much at time and times , betwixt eight and nine years together , preaching the Word of God , and speaking of the things of his Kingdom to all that looked after it ; and great watching , travel , and exercise in the Work of the Lord ; and his earnest desire was , That all might have come to know God's salvation , and the redemption of their souls . And his great diligence was known unto many , that his only rejoicing was in the prosperity of the Work of the Lord , and the encrease of Faith amongst them that did believe ; And his heart was much drawn towards this City ; and often times hath he said to me when suffering did come for the Gospel sake , which he knew would come , I can freely go to that City , and lay down my Life for a Testimony of that Truth which I have declared through the Power and Spirit of God : Which in the end indeed came to be his share , and will for ever be his Crown , who loved not his life unto death for the Testimony of our Lord Jesus Christ. And in the same year 1662. being pressed in his spirit to go visit them who were begotten unto the Faith of God's Elect at the City of Bristol , and in divers other Counties , at divers Meetings , and divers particular Friends , he took his leave of them , saying unto very many , That he did not know he should see their faces any more ; exhorting them all to faithfulness and stedfastness in that wherein they had found rest for their souls : And said to some , I am going up to the City of London again , to lay down my Life for the Gospel , and suffer amongst Friends in that place , as having some sence of his suffering before . And a little after his return to the City , at a publike Meeting which the people of the Lord have kept these many years , to hear and speak of the things of God to edification , at the Bull and and Mouth near Aldersgate , by certain Souldiers under the command of Richard Brown then General of the City of London , he was violently plucked down , and haled away in a barbarous manner , and carryed to the guard , and so committed to Newgate , not for evil-doing , but for testifying unto the Name of the Lord Jesus , and for the Worship of God , as though this were become a great crime worthy of Bonds , and ( at last ) death ; he was had to the Sessions in the Old Baily , and his accusers were Witnesses against him , and them that had abused him violently , their Testimony was received as good proof against him . And at last after two or three Sessions , he was fined by the Court one hundred Mark , which at last was reduced to twenty Mark , and to lie in prison while payment ; Where he continued a pretty long season , above 8 Months , with 6 or 7 score Prisoners be●ide , upon the same account , many being shut up among the Felons in nasty places , and for want of Prison-room , the natures of many were suffocated and corrupted , till at last many grew vveak , sickned , and dyed . At last this same young man grew vveak , and though a special Order from the King was sent to the then Sheriffs of London , for the release of him and the rest that were left in prison , yet such was the enmity of some of the Rulers of the City , that they did what in them lay to obstruct the execution of the Order , that he should not be released : And so weakness grew upon him daily , though in much patience he was carried through all . In the time of his sickness he was very fervent in prayer ( and that often , both day and night ) unto the Lord as concerning himself , and also his people ; and at several times he spoke several precious words from the sensible feeling of God's spirit in his heart , and said , I have had the testimony of the Lords love unto me from my youth ; and my heart hath been given up to do thy Will : And he said , I have preached the Gospel freely in this City , and have often given up my Life for the Gospels sake ; and now Lord rip open my heart , and see if it be not right before thee . Another time he said when he had a little ease , There is no iniquity lyes at my door , but the presence of the Lord is with me , and his life I feel justifie me . Another day afterwards he said , Thou hast loved me when I was in the Womb , and I have loved thee from my Cradle , and from my youth unto this day , and have served thee faithfully in my generation . And he spoke to Friends that were about him , to live in love and peace , and love one another . And at another time he said , The Lord taketh the righteous from the evil to come ; and he prayed for his Enemies , and for his persecutors , and said , Lord forgive Richard Brown , he may be forgiven . And though the distemper and the disease was violently upon him , yet he was preserved sensible ; and in the morning before he departed this life , being sensible of his death , he said , Now my soul and spirit is centered in its own Being with God ; and this form of person must return from whence it was taken : And after a little season he gave up the Ghost , and dyed a Prisoner , and shall be recorded , and is in the Lambs Book of Life , as a Martyr for the Word of God , and the Testimony of Jesus , for which only he suffered , and gave up his Life , whose death was precious in the eyes of the Lord. But now he ever liveth with God , and his Works follow him , and labour● shall testifie of him in generations to come ; and thousands beside my self can bear witness , His Life and death was to the praise , glory and honor of the Grace of God ; unto whom be the glory of all his Works for ever and ever , Amen . AND oh thou City of London ! who hast been a professing City of the Name of God and Christianity so many years , must it be said of thee as Christ said of Jerusalem , that a Prophet cannot perish out of thee : Oh how many Warnings hast thou had ! and how dost thou remain in obdurateness and impenitency ! Oh! thou art not worthy of those heavenly tydings of salvation which hath been proclaimed in the midst of thee these many years , by this faithful Messenger of God deceased , with many more , who is taken away in judgement unto thee , because many of thy Inhabitants despised and set at nought that in which the blessedness of all Nations consisteth . Oh how is thy Gold become dim ! and how is thy glory stained ! How is thy countenance marred ! How is all thy profession become dead , and thou like a withered Tree without sap ! The symptomes of death are upon thee ; Your Sun is set , your glory is passed away ; night is coming , and darkness is surrounding you , and you shall have enough of da●kness , and your pathes and ways shall be filled with it , because you have hated the Light , and would not have him who is the Light of the World , to rule in your hearts ; but hath chused darkness rather than Light , because your deeds are evil , and in the end thou shalt be made to see , you have chosen lying vanities , and have taken pleasure in the flesh , and have forsaken your own mercies . Repent , repent ( if any can find a place ) while it is called to day , lest you be shut up in everlasting darkness , and Truth be hid from your eyes for ever . Take warning , cease from persecution and afflicting the Lords people , who desire to live quietly and peaceably , and to worship God in truth and righteousness , with a pure heart : It is too too much that you have done already ; the suffering and death of many innocent righteous men , who have suffered these Winters past , will lie as a load upon your City in Summers to come . Remember what God did to Amaleck the first of the Natio●s , and to Moab when Israel would have passed to their own Land an● Countrey that God had promised them , and have eaten their own bread , and drank their water , and have passed on peaceably ; but they rose up and fell upon the poor , and upon the hindmost and weak ; God was glad ●o force his way , though it proved the ruine of Amaleck , and the misery of Moab . We would gladly walk on our way to the promised Land wh●ch belongs to the Saints in Light ; we would eat our own Bread , and drink our water and what we needed , and keep our Consciences clear ( in our generation we must ) to that which God hath promised ; and if we cannot have a way , God will make one for us ; and that you that set your selves against the Lord , in the end shall be sure to know and feel , though we shall never lift up carnal Weapon , nor drawsword , neither use Bow nor Spear ; for God hath taught us to love our Enemies ; and out of these things we are come , and to the end of Wars , and to be for it ; yet God's purpose shall be fulfilled , and he hath ways enough to plead the cause of his people , and he will do it , and wo to all their Enemies . And do you cry ou● of Popery because of cruelty and persecution ? And will you be found in the same footsteps , and in the same nature ? Oh! let it never be said nor thought , that ever the Church of God or true Christians did drink the blood of the Saints , or cast them into prison ; for that is Babylon the Mother of Harlots , that doth so . Therefore be informed and warned ; set not bryars and thorns in battel against the Lord , neither stubble before devouring fire ; for if you do , a consumption will come upon you , and your name and memorial shall rot , dye , wither , and melt away as Snailes ; and glory shall rest with , and upon the Heads of the sufferers of Christ for ever . By one who hath chosen rather to suffer with the people of God called Quakers , than to en●oy the pleasures of sin for a season , or to be reckoned as a Prince amongst the uncircumcised , Fran. Howgil . Reading the 22. of the 12. Month 1662. ANd as for E.B. our dear Brother and companion in travel , suffering and consolation for the everlasting Gospel● sake in his day , his Testimony lives with us ; he was a Preacher of Righteou●ness , and one who travelled for the redemption of the creature from under the bondage of corruption , and proclaimed liberty to the captives in the power and authority ●f God , and therein was a true Witness against Oppression , and all the Antichristian yokes imposed in the night of Apostacy ▪ upon the persons and consciences of people ; and truly and valiantly he held forth the Liberty of Conscience , and vindicated it to the great men of the Earth , in things appertaining to God in matters of Religion and Worship , against the persecution and compulsion ( which had its Original ●nd Rise from the Power of the Beast , which hath made war against the righteous seed ) that men might be left free to the guidance of the infallible Spirit of God ( which is not to be limited ) in these matters , and not be compelled nor brought under the corrupt wills of men , nor their fallible judgements nor invented forms in these cases : And the Name of this Mini●●er of Righteousness is written in the L●mbs Book of Life ; and all the Enemies of his Life can never be able to blot it ou● , nor extinguish his memorial . Oh! the remembrance of his integrity , uprightness and sincerity , hath deep impression upon my heart ; & that tender love and affection in God's Truth which he was filled with towards all the upright , ( who are lovers of peace & unity in the Lord ) is never to be forgotten by u● who are yet remaining in the Work of the Lord , and the everlasting Gospel , for which he hath left a glorious Testimony , the glory of which shall never be extinguished , but thousands shall praise the Lord our God because thereof ; yea , even the Seed that 's yet in the lower parts of the Earth ( where darkness covers it ) and the child that 's yet unborn in many , that 's curiously framed in the Mothers Womb , w●ose Members are written in the Book of God , shall glorifie the Lord on his behalf . And this testimony many have already concerning him , that though his Body be dead , his Spirit liveth in the immortality of that Life that is immutable , and shall never dye nor wax old , and is felt among the righteous , who walk in their integrity and constancy to the Lord. And this faithful servant of the Lord , and valiant Souldier of the Lamb ( as in his day was evidently apparent ) as to live to him was Christ , to dye was gain : And though in his time many were the sufferings and aff●ictions which his life went under , and his upright spirit suffered by , both from his open enemies and persecutors in the World ( because of the valour and courage for the Truth of God ) and from deceitful and transforming exalted spirits , which burthen the holy Seed ; but now his Life is caught up above them all ( and is out of their reach ) in the transcendent and unspeakable glory , in the everlasting habitation and firmament of God's Power , where he hath shined ( and doth shine ) among the Stars , that have kept their habitations , as one that hath turned many to righteousness , and that hath overcome by the blood of the Lamb , and the Word of his Testimony , with those holy Prophets and Martyrs who rejoice over Babylon and her abominations ( in whom their blood is found ) and against whom he was a faithful Witness and valiant Warrier , whose living and absolute Testimony therein , God hath blessed , made prosperous , and wil fulfil to the uttermost . And though he be ceased from his labours , his Works do follow him , which wil be had in living remembrance and precious esteem among the upright , when his persecutors shall be broken and laid low in the desolation and ruine of Babylon ; and all that continue in enmity and deceit , and all the deceitful spirits that have burthened his righteous soul , shall fall , and their blossome wither and come to nought . And if any of his persecutors or oppressors be yet so impenitent and obdurate as to triumph and be elevated in an exalted or prejudiced spirit , because of his death , and in their exaltation and pride of heart say , he was taken away in judgment , or in wrath . To such in Gods fear I answer , That thousands of the servants of the Lord are of another perswasion , not questioning but it was in Gods tender love ( as to his own particular ) that he was removed out of the Earthen Vessel , in which he ( though a man as in the prime of his years ) endured great travel in his time for the Truth 's sake , and the gathering of many into the way of the Lord , and in which his travel was the greater ( when the time of his dissolution drew near ) to be dissolved , because of his suffering ( and the extremity of his sicknesse occasioned thereby ) which many others were partakers of , who suffered persecution and imprisonment by unreasonable men in this City of London , for the cause of God and of a good Conscience , as chi●fly for their meeting together fingly in the Worship of God. But this I testifie in the Lord , as in him I have felt , that his being removed , was in judgement from the Lord against his persecutors , who desired and sought his destruction ; and what they have done against him hath greatly added to the fulfilling of their iniquities , that the blood of the righteous which cryes for vengeance may be avenged to the utmost upon them who would not suffer the righteous to have a being amongst men , nor lay to heart their being taken away from the evil to come . And they who in a byassed or prejudiced spirit of enmity are lifted up because of his decease , they were not worthy of him , nor of his Testimony , and they have cause to mourn and lament amongst those that have pierced the just , and slighted and despised the Messengers of Truth and Righteousnesse , whom God hath therein honored , and God will debase such , and their vain glory unto the dust , and exalt the testimony and life of his faithful Witnesses over all their heads . But we who have been well acquainted with the deep suffering of the righteous Seed , and with the worth of true unity , in the weighty body and spirit of Christ , and therein do behold the glory and compleatnesse of the City of our God , which is at peace within it self , cannot but prize the Ministers of Righteousnesse , and every Member of the same Body ; and oh how blessed and precious is the memorial of the righteous in our eyes ! And how deeply is my soul affected with that comfortable communion , and those many and living refreshments that we have enjoyed one with another , even with him and others , who have finished their course ! Well , however in this I am satisfied , that though we be left in travel , and our days have been days of affliction and suffering for Christ and the gospels sake , ( as in the World ) yet in him whom the Prince of this World hath nothing in , we have peace , being come into communion with the Spirits of just men , who are the Family of God , written in Heaven , and called by one name both in Heaven and Earth , and the God of Life is their portion , and his glory is the Rereward of his called , and chosen , and faithful ones , who have dealt their Bread to the hungry , and brought the poor to their House , even to the habitation of the righteous , where the living Bread is received , and the Heavenly Mansions lived in , and enjoyed by all who abide in the Truth , and retain their first Love , and habitation therein , in which true fellowship is enjoyed , and the prosperity of the elect Seed known : blessed be the Name of our God for ever and ever . G●orge Whitehead . London the 12 th day of the first month , 1663. A Testimony of truth concerning the Servant of the Lord , and Minister of Jesus Christ , Edward Burroughs . FRiends , a necessity is upon me , and I am even constrained and pressed in my spirit to bring in and give my Testimony concerning my beloved Brother before-mentioned , that it may remain and stand upon Record for Ages and Generation● to come . And this first I say and declare unto all people unto whom this shall come , That he was a man endued with the Almighty Power of God which lived and reigned in him ; ●nd the treasury of pure , Divine , Heavenly Wisdom was opened in him , &c. and understanding ( in the things that relate unto God's Kingdom of peace and righteousness , and in the things that concern the everlasting peace and well-being of all mankind ) was plentifully manifested unto him by the good Spirit of God , which ( I may say ) he had received in a plentiful measure : And this many can testifie unto , and his own Writings which remain upon record , will in a large measure manifest the truth thereof . And this spirit dwelt plentifully in him , so that thereby he wa● able to instruct many in the way of life , peace and true holiness ; and if any were afflicted in spirit or mind , by reason of the wiles of the Enemy of their souls , or if they met with any difficulty in their journey , as they passed from death to life , he was a man able ( through the large experience that he had of the dealings of the Lord , and also of the wiles of Satan , having followed the Lamb in the regeneration ) to administer a word in season to their refreshment and comfort , and for their establishment in the most precious , holy Faith ; and this I know the Witnesse of God in thousands must and shall testifie unto , who are the seal of his Ministry . And moreover he was a man that was able ( through the wisdom and blessed gift of God that was in him ) to convince and stop the mouths of all gainsayers of the truth , which he ( with us ) professed and lived in . And it is well known unto many , that he was never backwards , but always ready and willing to appear in a way of publike conference , as in vindication of ( and against any that should oppose ) the blessed Truth of God which he held and professed , and also to manifest the grounds and reasons wherefore , we deny ( and dissent from ) the National Prie●ts of the World , ( and their traditional ways of Worship ) and the hypocritical professors thereof , who have not the life and substance of what they profess in words . And these things ( it is well known unto many ) he was oft exercised in ; and he did not go about in corners , nor creep into dark places hiddenly nor secretly , but preached the Truth of God , and Doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ boldly and openly , even upon the house tops , and his valour for God's Truth on Earth , was well known unto many , and his voice was as the sound or ratling of the Charriots of God's Host upon the tops of the Mountains , and was oft uttered forth in the Name of the Lord , even like thunder , and the voice of the Son of God was uttered forth through him , by which the dead was raised ; the Witnesses are now alive , let them bring in their testimony , that the truth hereof may be confirmed . His Doctrine dropped as the Oyle of joy upon the Spirits of the mourners in Sion . His Life extended it self as a sweet stream into the hearts of the children of Light that thirsted after righteousness : He was one of the Cloud of Witnesses that dropped down the dew upon the tender plants of God. He pleaded the cause of the innocent suffering Seed , and earnestly contended with the Powers of the Earth of all sorts , in the behalf , and for the freedom of the suffering people of God : He fore prophesied unto them that were in Authority in the days past , of their destruction , and of their overthrow , because of their deceitfulness to God , and their false and cruel , treacherous and merciless dealings towards his people , who had made many fair promises both to God and man in the time of their adversity , That they would grant free liberty of Conscience in things relating to the Worship of God , and that Oppression should be removed , and the like ; but in the time of their prosperity , when they were waxen fat , and grown great , and lived at ease and in pleasures , then they forgot God , and regarded not to perform their Engagements neither to God nor his people ; for which cause the Lord cut them off in hi● sore displeasure , and brought an utter desolation upon them , according to the words of his Servants , and this Prophet of God lived to see their desolation come , ( which was sad to behold ) and his Prophesies was fulfilled in his own days . And he also warned the present Rulers of this Nation to take heed of walking in the steps of them that are gone before . And for these things , and for the publishing of the Truth of God , and for bearing his Testimony with boldnesse against all Oppression and Cruelty , he was hated of the men of this gener●tion , but chiefly by some of the Rulers of the City of London : He sealed his Testimony with his Life in bonds ; and so they have wilfully brought innocent blood upon themselves , and heavy will it lye upon them in the day of account ( which greatly hastens ) wherein the Lord God wil make inquisition for the blood of the innocent , and reward every man according to his deeds ; then wil his blood be upon you as the blood of a thousand men ; and how wil you bear your sentence from the Lord of Hosts , because you will be found guilty of the blood of his Prophets , Messengers and Servants , which he sent unto you in love to your souls , to forewarn you of the evil which greatly hastens to come upon you : Yet notwithstanding you have done all these things , and the cry of innocent blood hath been heard so loud amongst you , yet have you hardened your hearts and go on in stiff-neckedness , and persist in your cruelty towards the servants of the Lord that are left behind , and are found casting them into prison : Oh wo is me for you ! where will a place be found for you in the day of the Lord ? or what covering will you hide yourselves under ? Or how wil you appear before the righteous God of Heaven and Earth ? Have you no consideration in you of your latter end ? Or else do you believe that the Lord sees not your cruelty towards his people , that you will not answer his requirings , which is to do justly , and love mercy , and walk humbly with the Lord , and to do unto all men as you would they should do unto ? surely if the consideration of these things was in your hearts , or if you had any regard to keep your consciences clear in the sight of God herein , you could never do as you have done . Wherefore consider these things , and lay them to heart , and repent speedily , lest you sin your day away , and place of repentance there cannot be found : For this I tell you plainly , that it is in vain for you to strive against the Lord , or to seek to stop or hinder his work which he hath begun ; for he will be too strong for you , and he will make you bow and bend to his own Name and Power , whether you will or no. And though he bear with you long , and suffer you long , yet his long-suffering wil come to an end ; and though you should be permitted to fulfil your envious wills and lustful desires so fa● as to banish , or kill , or destroy us from off the earth , yea all of us who are now in being , ( which I do not believe ever shall be ) yet would God raise up another people by the same power and spirit in and by which we stand , which should be a terror unto you , and should possess God's everlasting Kingdom ( which is not of this World ) over your heads . And in the time of his outward weakness he was heard to say , That though this body of Clay must return to the dust , yet I have this Testimony that I have served God in my generation , an● that spirit which hath lived , and acted , and ruled in me , shall yet break forth in thousands ; and my faith is , That it shall be indeed even so ; for we have found him a true Prophet amongst us , and ●o the Nations . And this also near his departure he was heard to desire of the Lord , That if it were possible , to forgive Brown , &c. And so let all Friends be encouraged to wait upon the Lord in the feeling of the same Spirit that was in him , ( which we know is the Saints Comforter ) that thereby you may be carried through all tribulations and persecutions with chearfulness , that in the end you may all receive the Crown of everlasting righteousness with him and the rest of the Saints of the most high God , and holy Prophets and Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ : And so the Lord God Almighty of Heaven and Earth be with you all , and keep you all in faithfulness unto the end , Amen . MY Brother dear the Lord hath call'd away , That in this World he should no longer stay : Who was to many an Instrument of good , While in the body ( in God's great Power ) he stood . For many were from darkness by him turned Unto the Light , in which they were confirmed By the Power and Doctrine which to them was preached By him , through which God's true Witness was reached , In their dark hearts , where Satan long had reigned , Over whom ( through God's great power ) Victory 's gained . He was a valiant Souldier of the Lamb , And faithful to the Lord did always stand , Till with his Life he seal'd his Testimony , ( A London-Prisoner ) as it 's known to many . But now in peace with God he is sate down , And hath with Christ an everlasting Crown Of Immortality , Life and lasting joy , Which never shall from him be took away . He was intrusted with the hidden treasure In a large , and in an abundant measure , Which he dispensed to the Lambs of God ; But to the wicked he was a Scourge and Rod. He fed the Babes and Children with the Word , Which to the Wicked was a piercing sword : Before him stil God's Enemies did fall ; He never turn'd his back to them at all . But now he hath thus finished his course With joy and peace , yet 's Life we do not lose : For oh dear Brother , thy Life I stil do feel Remaining with me , else I could not wel Remain behind thee with true satisfaction , Because 't would turn upon me with reflexion . For truly can I say , My heart is fill'd With sorrow great , and grief is not expell'd : For oh ! the sence of my dear brother's Love Remains upon me , and shall never move . But herein is my soul greatly refreshed , That thy good savour and thy Name is blessed , And shall remain in ages yet to come , When visibles standing now ; is past and gone . But oh my brother dear Why soul did love Thy Life , which not●ing was , nor is above : For all t●ings it transcended , as to me ; In my esteem there 's nothing like't can be : Because it stood in that Eternity Which always wil remain , and never dye : And Ages yet to come shall tast thereof , And call thee blest , in whom it was brought forth . He was a man in whom Gods Power reigned , Through Faith , in which he a great Vict'ry gained Over Death and Hell , the Grave and Power of sin . And all things that were centered therein . He was a man in whom the fulness dwelt Of Grace and Virtue , was by many felt To live in him , and speak in Gods great power , And he descended as a sweet plenteous shower , Which did refresh the Garden of the Lord , The Plants that met together with one ●●cord On God to wait , refreshment to receive , And afterward in love to take their leave . He was a man that was upright in heart Towards God and man , and hated all deceit : And what he was to God , there 's few do●h know , Neither can my Tongue or Pen declare or show : But this I say , He was ● men of God , And in the Light of Righteousness he stood . What might I say of this my precious Friend ! My soul lov'd him entirely to the end ▪ And stil his Life is felt amongst the Lambs Who in the Light and Power of God doth stand : Here he is read , here he is felt and known Amongst the faithful , who with him are one . His savour's good , my Life 's therewith refresht ; His Name is now , and ever shall be blest . And now my brethren dear , and sisters all , In this be you refresht both great and small . Although our brother outwardly be gone , Yet hath not God the Lord left us alone ; For his Almighty Power is with us stil , Which in the Light of Life you all may feel To your refreshment and eternal joy , Which no man in this World can take away . Here is our peace , herein our joy lasts stil , In which my love is to you all , Farwel , And this is my Testimony for that man of God who hath been a blessing to the Lord in his generation , and also to this Nation : And in this I have eased my Spirit , and am clear in my Conscience in the sight of God , having done that which was my duty to do . Josiah Coale . A Testimony of G. F. concerning E.B. HIs Name is Chronicled in the Book of Life ; a righteous plant , pure , chaste , clean : Who can tax him for oppressing them , or burdening them , or being chargeable to them ? who through the sufferings hath finished his course and testimony , who is now crowned with the Crown of Life , and reigns with the Lord Christ for ever and ever . And in his Ministry in his life-time , he went through sufferings by bad spirits , who never turned his back on the Truth , nor his back from any out of the Truth ; a valiant Warrior , more then a Conqueror , who hath got the Crown through death and sufferings , who is dead , but yet liveth amongst us , and amongst us is alive . G. F. The End. 
A47156	----	The light of truth triumphing over darkness and ignorance, error and envy manifested in Robert Gordoun's late pretended testimony to the true Saviour : wherein every one whose eye is open may see his seat, and who have salt in themselves may favour his words, work and spirit and discern his deceitful dealing by smitting the innocent in secret, yet not with that subtilty which is able to cover in this day wherein light is manifesting the works of darkness : so, the Devil was here deficient but envy slays the foolish man : given forth in the 2 moneth 1670 / by George Keith, & G. White-head. Keith, George, 1639?-1716. 1670 Approx. 102 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 22 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A47156 Wing K179 ESTC R2048 12576698 ocm 12576698 63604 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A47156) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 63604) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 962:39) The light of truth triumphing over darkness and ignorance, error and envy manifested in Robert Gordoun's late pretended testimony to the true Saviour : wherein every one whose eye is open may see his seat, and who have salt in themselves may favour his words, work and spirit and discern his deceitful dealing by smitting the innocent in secret, yet not with that subtilty which is able to cover in this day wherein light is manifesting the works of darkness : so, the Devil was here deficient but envy slays the foolish man : given forth in the 2 moneth 1670 / by George Keith, & G. White-head. Keith, George, 1639?-1716. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. Gordon, Robert, fl. 1669-1675. Testimony to the true Saviour. [2], 18, 9 [i.e. 22] p. s.n.], [S.l. : 1670. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. Errata: p. 9 [i.e. 22] Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Doctrines. 2003-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-02 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-10 Tonya Howe Sampled and proofread 2003-10 Tonya Howe Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion The Light of Truth Triumphing Over Darkness an●●gnorance , Error and envy . Manifested in Robert Gordouns late pretended testimony to the true Saviour . Wherein every one whose eye is open may see his Seat ; And who have Salt in themselves may favour his words , work and Spirit and discern his deceitful dealing by smitting the innocent in secret , yet not with that subtilty which is able to cover in this day wherein Light is manifesting the works of darkness . SO , The Devil was here deficient BUT Envy siays the foolish man. Given forth in the 2 Moneth 1670. By George Keith ▪ & G. White-head . Printed in the year 1670 , R. G. Having had knowledge of thee from the beginning and acquantance with thee through many years , and a love for the● , ●nd regard to thee , I found a readiness in 〈◊〉 to signifie My sense of thee and sorrow for thee in that spirit and mind which could d●light to do thee a service in Love. But indeed thou appearest before me as one very uncapable ( in that spirit and state wherein thou stands ) of a return to the Lord or of a steady Conductor to thy bewildred minde , the traversing of which without a guide hath centred it in a Whirle pool . And in thy reelings thou art now resolved thou wilt fight , neither with great no● small , but with the King of Israel : The Light of 〈◊〉 . I have often wisht thee to come under its banner , that it might have become thy covering , then had not darkne●s covered thy understanding nor the Fogs of lirror so confounded thee but that thou might have seen thy way out of the mire and clay wherein thou art toyling thy self , travelling in pain and bringing ●orth th● wind . It did not a little astonish me , upon a view of thy book to find thee ( whom I judged had attain'd a measure of reason ) setting up thy own shaddow , in thy own immagination , and then cudggelling it down again as though thou wert encountring an Army , for where did 〈◊〉 the people called Quakers deny that body ( prepared of God to do his will in ) which suffered at Jerusalem by wicked hands ? which thou seems to take for granted ; and then labours like a man in a sweat , ( and indeed thy labour is in the fire ) to prove its existence in that day of its service and its necessity as to mankind , which by them was never denyed , and I dare thee , and all men upon the earth to prove they did or do . I take notice of thy acknowledgement in the 4 pag. of thy book , that the manifestation of God in the flesh of Christ , was that their by way might be opened for the ministration of the other mistery 〈…〉 , separating them and making the one subservient to the other , and yet after runs against it ●n the whole scope of thy work : which is m●nifest beyond all gain saying ▪ 〈…〉 qualification and a work to be wrought and that by a Spirit too ? ●ven as though the words had been expresly written to give thy words th● lyc . I am really sorry for thee , and my very 〈…〉 d●sir●d and doeth thy good ) and mark thy self that if possib●● thou might see the confusion ●hy enemy drives thee into , fo● within ten lines after on the same page thou says , seeing the travel of his soul rested well pl●ased that he might make it effectual within every man , end yet before , no work to be 〈◊〉 in any man by any light or spirit : Oh Robert whether drives thou ? whether art thou driven ? I marke one thing more pag. 4. thou says , He hath already subdued all , made an ●nd of sin compleated the work of 〈◊〉 ▪ redem●tion , dyed for Us and reconcil●d Us to God &c. and as I was weighing it in my mind what or whom thou did intend by the words , Our , and Us , That other part of thy book came before me pag. 13. where thou says : he did bear Our sins in his body on the tro● , Propitiation for the sins of the 〈◊〉 world past present and to come , so then it appeared by the word Us thou intends the whole world . Nevertheless ( to go round again ) thou pleads with a generation , saying that their pleading a faith in his death and sufferings , interest in the satisfaction and attonement made to God through his blood ▪ pag. 6 , Will not shelter them from the wrath of the Father , pag. 7. What I not shelter them , and yet Christ a propitiation for their sins past present and to come , what incongruous work is this , which they that runs may read . Several other pass●ges in thy book are observable , and I do not charge thy intention with blasphemy but thy work unawares Vergeth near it , for pag. 22. thou says of Christ who was never defiled , having the iniquities of us all in h●s body &c. how unsound are thy words ? and in pag. 24. thy words are , Spiritual m●sticall ●l●goricall Christ , light within us , Spirit and po●er in the man Christ. And now does thou know what thou speakes ? to Catigorize a Spiritual and an Alegoricall Christ identically , and so in effect mak● them both one . Thou hast sometimes accused some for Alegorizing his body of flesh , but now thou darest do it to his Spiri● ; I wish thou knew the weight of this and what tendency it hath to make void the faith converting its object into a Chimaera . In the same page thou says : if in every man this seed or Christ is not saved : doeth it remain for ever under condemnation ? There is a supposition and a question from it of thy own forming , and presently thou concludes it a doctrine of some others , saying , oh how contrary is this doctrine ? First it is gross confusion in thy self , to call a supposition and question , a doctrine , and secondly it is a smitting in the dark , by thy implying and raking for granted there is a people that hold it . If thou meanest the people called Quakers a●cuse them openly , if not then clear them , of the many inconsequent implycations of thy book which many do and will understand to be against them until thou put off thy Viza●d . But it is enough to me , ( and I wish it may be serviceable to thee for good ) that some faith●ul friends of truth have in love to truth and to thee set thy work before thee as in a glass , that happily thou may see thy self by their labour of Love which after followes ▪ else I might have found in my heart to have dealt with thy book throughout , and I am satisfied in due time thy own words will become thy burden , but still I wish it may be for thy good for I have a real Love to thee and regard for thee as I said at first . A. Robeson . Light set over Darkness . In somewhat writ in answer unto a printed paper published by R. G. ( so far as it Concerns us the people called in deri●ion Quakers and our principle ) wherein he hath both difing enuously represented us , and darkly ) and ignorantlly opposed our principle , even Iesus Christ ▪ the true light w●h enlightning every man that comes into the world that all through him might believe and in believing might all aim unto eternall life and salvation . R. G I have seen and considered thy book or paper entitled A T●stim●ny to the true Saviou● , and I find somewhat in me from the Lord to answer thee in Love to thy soul , and in a zeal for God and his truth and people , whom the spirit that hath set thee on work , to write this book hath laboured to vail and cloud that the light of the glory thereof , might not shine forth , but its work is in vain , for the truth shineth forth in brightness over all that confusion , mist and darkness by which it seeks to hinder it , and indeed the youngest child of truth may see thy weakness , and confusion herein , and how thou figh test as one beating the air against that precious people , and their testimony whom though thou doest not expressly design , yet any who reads thy book , and are acquainted with us and our principle , wi●l see that thy book is levelled mostly against us , and our principle ▪ its very design being to cast mire and durt upon us , and to marre the visage and beauty of that precious truth , the Universal light which is within , but it is returned upon thee and this stone which thou rejects , and seeks to perswade others to reject is set over thee , and will be too b●rthensome for thee , if in time thou repent not . I finde not my self concerned to take a particular notice of all thy words , so as to give a particular answer to them , onely so far , as thou manifests both thy own confusion , and self contradiction on the one hand , and thy opposition to the sound and wholesome words of truth together with thy disingenious stating and wresting of that pure do●ctrine affirmed and declared by us , on the other . In the second and third page thou writes of two snares , wherewith some are intangled , which are summed up in this , to wit the dividing these two great Gospell Misteries , and setting the one in opposite terms against the other , contrary to the tenden●y of the Holy Scripture● , and what these Snares are thou more particularly expresses , pag. 5. — But there are some upon the one hand , so zealous for Christ ( thou says ) and what he did for u●●n his Crucified body without us that they n●glect in themselves , and ●ppose in others the mistery of Christ within as a matter of no co●cernment at all to them &c. and this thou reckons the first snare and indeed a snare i● is , and that very dangerous and dreadfull ▪ but for all thy work to discover this snare to others , thou art found intangled in it thy sel● , and intangling others with thee , as much as thou can ●s I may afterwards make appear . The second snare thou mentions , is that some on the other hand , pretend so much zeal , for this mistery , Christ within , the opperations a●d acting of the Spirit of God in themselves , that they deny the mistery of God in the flesh of Christ ▪ as a matter of any necessity to them , as to redemp●ion reconc●liation , and justifica●●on &c ▪ which charge thou plainly directs against us ca●led in d●rision Quakers , as may appear by the import of thy discourse , though th●u does not expre●ly name us , to which I say it is a fa●se charge , nor are we guilty of it ▪ as also thou false●y alleadges , tha● we recko● to accomplish this in our own bodies , each for himself throu●h obedience to the Law , or Light in his Conscience , which Light they call Christ , Redeemer a●d onely Saviour , without r●spect to the ●rue Christ ▪ and ou● onely Saviour Jesus Christ of Nazareth . I say this is false , for ●hough we say Reco●ciliation , and justification , and Redemption is wrought in us ▪ by Christ ▪ yet not without respect to Christ , even as outwardly manifest , born , and crucified &c. for our justification &c ▪ hath a true and real , and certain respect to Christ both as inwardly manife●●ed in us , and also as manifested in that body of flesh which was crucified in 〈◊〉 &c for we do believe that he took upon him the form of a servant ev●● in the outward and died even in the outward , and offered up even his very flesh ▪ through the eternal Spirit in the outward , as a sacrifice of a sweet smell ▪ and atonem●nt unto God , in order to our justifica●ion and reconciliation with God , so as thereby he prepared or made ready the way , for our justification ▪ though our justification was not s●●ply and absolutely thereby wrought , as if no more were to be done by him and his Spirit in us or as if his outward body , flesh , blood , and life were the onely sacrifi●● , and propitiation , exc●uding the inward . And now if I should stop here , and proceed no furthe● I give a sufficient testimo●y ●gainst thy f●lse charge upon us , yet I must say somewhat f●rther for the clearing this matter , for whereas thou not onely affirms that Salvation and justification hath a necessary respect to Christ his taking on him the form of a Servant or man , in the outward , and ●umbling himself therein , even to the outward death ( which we also grant God having so ordained it to be ) but also thou seems to affirm , that the express knowledge and b●li●f of his taking on him the form of man , and his ob●d●en●● and sufferings therein is of a●s●lute necessity unto all and every one , for salvation , so as none could be saved without that express knowledge , though it was never revealed to them . This I deny , how canst thou prove this by Scripture , for may not the benefit of Christ his taking on him , the form of a man redound unto many , who do not expresly know it ( they having a true light within them ) even as a diseased person may receive benefit of a cure applyed to him thou●h he has not an express knowledge of all the names and ways , ●ow from first to last it hath been prepared , and even as many have s●ffered hurt , through the disobedience of the first man to wit Adam who have not known expresly that ever such a man was , or the manner of his disobedience . So why may not even many receive benefit , through the obedience of Christ , in the outward , who have not known expresly his outward coming and sufferings ? otherwise Adams disobedience were more effectual for mans destruction , then the obedience of Christ were for his Salvation . As for what thou writes against those , who pretend to the imputed righteousness of Christ &c. but under all this retaining and indeed entertaining the Serpents nature in their souls &c. as in pages 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 11 , it toucheth not us , for we have no such principle , not beliefe , and thou hast need to examine thy own heart , lea●t thou be found in this snare thy self , does thou retain , or entertain , nothing of the Serpents nature in thee yea art thou ●ot of such a belief , that sin doth of necessity live ▪ in thy soul , and thou cannot be freed so from it , but that it must live in some measure in thy soul , for term of life , and is not sin th● Serpents nature , and if it cannot but live in thee , does thou not retain , yea entertain it in thy soul ? for surely sin cannot live in any measure ▪ where it finde● no entertainment ? yea as to this matter art thou not in con●usion , and contradiction to thy self ; for though thou blames them , who pretend to the imputed righteousness of Christ , but under all this re●aining , yea entertaining the serpents nature , pag. 6 yet p. 16 thou expresly pleads for Redemp●ion in another for us , while ●in is within , and to 〈◊〉 otherways , thou calls it an arguing with God , and charging him with folly , how wilt thou rid thy self heir of Confusion and contradiction to th● self , I might take notice of divers other unfound words of thine from pag. 1. to pag. 10. but desiring to be short , I shall pass them ▪ and onely take into consideration another piece of confusion and contradiction to thy self , for pag. 9. thou says , Of one who is dead in sins and trespasses , and remains so still , that he is a child of wrath , as well as others , and is altogether so sti●l and yet pag. 12 ▪ thou affirms that God is fully attoned , perfectly reconci●ed to man , &c. sing●y and solely upon the acco●●t of the active and passive obedience of the man Jesus Christ of Nazar●●h , done in his crucified body without us , ●nd this thou would inter from , 2 ●ar . 5. 18. and thou further add● that he ( to wit Paul , in the cited place ) mentions not any consideration ▪ qualificatio● ▪ or work wrought , or to be wrought in any man , by any Light or Spirit whatsoever , now is not this confusion and contradiction to ●hy self . First to say a man dead in ●ins or unsanctified altogether is altogether a ch●ld of wrath , Secondly to say , that God is fully and perfectl● attoned and reco●ciled with him , in this state , for what 〈◊〉 ●t to be a child of wrath , but that the wrath of God is upon him ▪ and against him , and yet says thou God is fully reconcil●d with such , altogether children of wrath , and yet God is fully attoned , perfectly reconciled with them , is it not palpable confusion , and contradiction ? nor does that cited place 2 Cor. 5 18 prove what thou intends ▪ onely thou wrests it , as that thou say● , he says not God , is yet to be reconciled but he is alread● fully reconciled but say I with whom is he 〈◊〉 reco●c●led with unbelievers , and unsanctified persons ? but the Apostles words are in that place hath reconciled us viz. us who believe and are sanctified , but of the world he saith reconciling , so not reconciled yea in the sa●e place he mentions a qualification to be wrought by the Spirit , on their parts ▪ in order to their full reconciliation . viz that they be reconci●ed to God be ye reconciled to God said he . And pag. 13. I hou affirms that faith is but the evidence of that red●mption , and salvation already wrought by Christ for us , citing that Scripture , Heb. 11. 1 but though the Apostle say , faith is the evidence of things not seen , he does not 〈◊〉 , it is but the evidence , as excluding it from being any quali●●cation requisite unto redemption , or justification , yea he calls it also a sub●ance of things hoped for . And here I shall take not●ce , how thou art fallen into that principle of the 〈…〉 so c●lled who maintain that men are justified with God ▪ before 〈…〉 , and that faith is onely the evidence of ju●●●fication ▪ But 〈◊〉 th●n brings no s●fficient proves of Scripture to 〈…〉 53● 6 of 〈◊〉 . nor 2 Cor. 5. 18. 2● ▪ nor Act ▪ 4. nor Gal. 44. Give any ground for it that God is fully attoned , perfectly reconci●ed with u●beli●vers , for though he was made sin for us , and that God had laid ●n him the iniquities of us all , yet the unbelievers do still remain under the burthen of sin and they are concluded in it , & wrath is revealed in them against it , as saith the Scripture , and God is against them in it , till they be agreed with him through faith and fancti●●cation ( ag●●e said he with th●ne adversary , &c. ) and there is ●o peace to the wicked saith my God , it is not s●id , there is no evidence or intimation of peace to them , but there is no peace to them while they so continue & as for the one o●●●ing once for all , yet the fr●it and effect thereof is not given unto ●ll , so ●s that all ●re justified for many are condemned , he that believeth not , said Christ is condemned already . I come now to examine thy assertion , page 10. which tho● indeavors to confirm ▪ through the most part of thy paper , and it is this . Secondly ( says thou ) there is another snar● carrying death also in the bosome of it , though covered with the smooth words of power , spirit , and light within , and it is tha● spirit that publisheth that the light that enlightneth every man that comes into the world , is the true Christ , our only Sa●iour , Mediator and Redeemer , and that there is not another , and that man 〈◊〉 to head , and to be joyned to this light , as that , which as 〈◊〉 condemns him , so i● able of it self to save and rede●m him ▪ as he becomes obedient thereun●o ▪ Here with open mouth thou smi●es against our principl● , even Jesus Christ the true light that en●ightens ●v●ry man that c●m●th into the wo●l● , that all through him might believe , though thou may remember that some time formerly thou h●●t c●nfess●d to it ▪ and also pleaded for it , but thou hast given way to the darkness which hath clouded any sma●l conviction of thi● truth in thy soul , and now turned thee into ●nmity against it , and that th● darknes● hath ruled thee in this work appears plain●y from thy manifold confusion and contradiction to thy self wherein thou art intangled pag. 17. thou says this Doctrine ( declari●g the Light and Power 〈◊〉 Spirit within , to be Christ , the only Mediator and Saviour , ) asserts another Christ , another Saviour then him J●sus Christ of Nazareth , wh● 〈◊〉 conceived of the Holy Ghost , and born of 〈◊〉 Ma●y , and yet pag. 5. tho● ple●ds for Christ within ▪ and blames them who neglect in thems●lv●s , and oppose in oth●rs the mistery of Christ wi●hin , yea page 7 〈…〉 , for Christ formed within men , saying to them that without dyi●g to the old Nature of sin , and rising i● the new 〈◊〉 of right●o●s●●s● ▪ 〈◊〉 so Christ formed within you , you cannot in●●rit the Kingdo● who of the weak●st disc●rning cannot see thy self contra●●ction here ●ea and thy enmity to the mist●ry of Christ within ! though at times forge●●ing and contradicting thy ●elf , thou seems to be for ●t , but if thou were indeed for this mistery Christ within as he is the seed , the 〈◊〉 , the Power and the Life , tho● would not say that such Doctrine asser●● another Christ , then him Jesus Christ of Nazareth , for Jesus Christ is still one and the same , the Saviour , and Mediator , and R●deemer is still one and not divided , there ●re not two Christs , one without , 〈◊〉 of the Virgi● Mary , and another within , formed within , but it is one and the same Lord Iesus Christ ▪ who in the fulness of time , took upon him , the form of ● servant , and was found in the true form of a Man born of the Virgin Mary , who was also in the beginning with God , and was the Gift of the Fathers love unto man , from the begi●ning , to be in them , and unto them Light and Life to enlighten ●nd quicken them unto God. But now let us a little weigh the weight of those arguments , which thou 〈◊〉 against th●s Doctrine ; of the Light within , being the Saviour , and saving them , who become joined a●d obedient thereunto ▪ First thou s●ys , this Doctrine is of no less consequence , then to establish agai● the Covenant of wor●● ▪ which speaketh thus ▪ do this , and live thereby , making void the Righteousness , which is of Faith in Christ which speaketh on this wise , believe , and thou shalt be saved . To which I say nay , this Doctrine doth not est●blish the Covenant of the works of the Law , mentioned by the Apostle , by which no flesh can be justified , no● doth it make void the Righteousness which is of Faith , Chri●t for the Righteousness which is of Faith in Christ doth well consist 〈◊〉 stand with obedience to Christ the seed , and with works which are wrought in the vertue and strength of him , the seed formed within , raised within , living ●ithin , ye● their consistence is so necessary , that they cannot be divided , for ●aith without works i● dead , but thou art ignorant of the Nature of the New Covenant , or Righteousness of faith as if it excluded works , and doing and as if doing were prop●● only to the Old or first Covenant , in order to justification , which is false , for both th● first and the second Covenant require●h doing , and works , but after a different manner , the first Covenant ▪ putt●th man upon doing , without giving unto him , that grace and life , which ●s sufficient , to make his works acceptable unto God , perfectly and ●hroughly , which i● o●ly ●dministred in the incorr●ptible seed of ●ife , in its arisings , and springings up in the heart , and so the first Covenant or Law comes before the seed be raised , or brought forth ▪ and requires man to do such things ▪ in th● state . ●ut man can giv● no prefect obedience to this law for it onely condemns him , and g●ves him the knowledge of sin ▪ but gives him no spiritual life , for the life is in the ne● Covenant and springeth up in the seed thereof , and so the first Covenant or Law is called in Scripture the Carnal Commandment , and it● seed and birth is Carnal , o● accor●ing to the flesh , which cannot give unto man to perform perfect obedience unto God ▪ for the Law makes nothi●g perfect but the bringing in of a better hope which is the power of an endless l●fe , in the incorruptible immortal spiritual and heavenly seed not onely requireth p●rfection and perfect obedience , but bringeth to it and giveth power to answer and perform it , for the new Covena●t ●ath a se●d and birth that is not carnal and weak but spiritual and powerful , and requireth obedience and works of and from men , in this even in the virtue , power , and life of this spiritual seed , and of this Ishmael and Isa●ck , Esa● and Jacob , were figures , as the Apostle declares in the Epistles to the Galla●ians and Romans , Ishmael and Esau , sig●ifie the chi●dren of the ●lesh , or fleshl● seed , who are the child●en of the old or first Covenant , who cannot attain unto the blessing of full and perfect justification and acceptance with God through all they can do ▪ but the ●lection attaineth it the elect seed , and the children thereof ▪ who are born not of the flesh , but of the ●pirit , not of a fleshly seed , but a sp●rit●●l , not of the first Adam , but of the second , who are the children of Abraham , according to the spirit , of whom Is●●ck and Jacob were figures , and though the new Covenant requireth faith or beli●ving yet it requireth not onely faith , but works also , in order to a full and perfect justification with God , for Abraham was justified by works , and not by ●aith only so Rachab , so Phir●ha● and the Apostle saith ▪ R●m . 8. 13. If ye thro●gh the spirit do mortif●e the the deeds of th● body , yee shall liv● , so th● new Covenant requireth both ●aith and works too ; believing and doing , but believing is the first thing ▪ it requireth men not simply to do ▪ without respect to ●aith in Christ the seed , but requireth each in their order as ●hat men should believe and do , for its faith which draw● life from Christ and expresseth it in works , which render them living and acc●ptable unto God ▪ ( otherwise they are dead ) so people must first believe , and then to their faith they must adde vir●ue &c. and this believi●g is a winni●g of the very heart , and soul of man , unto the Light and ●pirit and power of Christ , within , manifest in the ●eed through which strength ▪ is rece●ved to give perfect obedience to God. Moreover that the new Covenant requireth doing , is plain from D●ut . 30. 14. But the word is very near unto thee ▪ even in thy mouth , and in thy heart ▪ for to do it , which word , the Apo●tle Paul , expounds to be the wo●d of Faith and ●ighteousnes● of Faith , ( Rom. 10. 8 ) which ●e preached and that was the new Covenant I have been the more large in ope●i●g this matter , because it will give occasion unto me , to return a clear and full answer , in very few words , to all thy other ca●nal and unlearned objections and reasonings against the Truth in this particular , as in that thou brings for a second Argument that Paul said , b● the works of the L●w , 〈…〉 , &c. And here thou adds by way of exposi●ion ▪ that is by our obedience to the Law , either written in Tables of stone , or to the Law ▪ or Light in the Conscience , but this exposition has ●o ground from Scripture , and it s but a figment of thy own invention of darkness for its clear , by the works of the Law , Paul understands the law of the first Covenant as the Jews imitation of the Letter are outward●y administred , before the spiritual seed of Lif● be raised ; which hath in it ▪ the Law of the Spirit of Lif● in Christ Jesus ▪ for the justification is in the seed and these works only are j●stified ▪ which are done in the Life and vertue thereof , nor is thy third objection of any more weight , as wh●re the Apostle saith , Had there been a Law given , wh●ch co●ld hav● given life , ve●ily right●ousn●ss should have been by the Law , for it is manifest he understands the Law of the first Covenant , which was the ministration of death , and no● of Life , but the Law of Christ , or the Law of the spirit of Life in Christ Jesus giveth life , and so justification is by this Law , and yet fai●h is not made void , nor the promise made of none effect , 〈◊〉 the reward reckoned not of Grace but of debt , for this law , is of Grace , and of promise , and the whole obedience giv●n to it ▪ is all of the free Grace of God in Christ Jesus , and the same answer may serve to that other Scripture cited by thee , ● man is ju●●●fied by ●aith without the deeds of the law , and to him that worketh not , &c. Which excludes the deeds and works of the law of the first Covenant , or the works of any law ▪ from justification , which is not given forth and administred in the E●ect noble and royal , and ●●mortal and incorruptible ●eed of life ▪ for before this seed be raised all are under transgre●●ion 〈…〉 further says ▪ Th●t the Apo●●le concludes them ign●rant of ▪ and not submi●●i●g to the r●ght●ousness of God , who go about to establish th●ir own righteousn●ss , by the works of the Law , so say we also but the r●ghteousness which is in the elect seed and the works thereof , are not that self righteousness , but the righ●●ousness of God , and is our righteousness , as Christ is ours , ev●n by the free grace & gift of the Fat●er . So having thus cut the 〈…〉 seeming strength , thy carnal objections may have with weak people , I shall not ne●d further to answer particularly thy other words hereab●ut ▪ seeing they contain no force of Arguments , but are only thy bare assertions and positions , which wanting a sufficient foundation fall of themselves . Thou further alleadges page 15. That to affirm just●f●cation , to b● in obed●ence to the Light 〈◊〉 , is to make him who is indeed the good Samarita●e ▪ to be no better th●n the Priest and ●he Levite , who looked upon the w●●●ded man and so passed by , but hast thou not here gross●ly manifested thy weakness and shallowness ▪ does he not the part of ●he good Samarita●● , in coming i●to our wounded souls in powring in the Wine and Oyl of his blessed spirit life and vertue , to cleanse and 〈◊〉 them , yea if he did not appear in us , and justifie 〈◊〉 within , work Redempt●●on ●nd Salva●●on from sin in our hearts , he might ●e said rather to pass by us , as the Priest and th● Levite . But that both here and oft elsewhere thou insin●ates ; as if we had no respect to his outward coming and sufferings in order to justification , is a ●●lfe and disi●genious alleadg●nce of thin● , we dearly own and respect him , in bot● the way● of his coming , an● do not set the one in opposition to the other , nor divide them , for they are in Unity ; and work together ( according to the Eterna● pu●pos● of God ) for the full and per●ect deliverance and Sa●vation of Man , and who receive him , in his inward coming , and become subj●ct to him ▪ receive the ●enefit of his ou●ward coming , receive the ben●fit of his sufferings and death ▪ his suffering and death is thei●s , and they who witness him to live in them , may 〈◊〉 , it is Christ , who dyed who can cond●mn , who have hi● Lif● in them , have any interest in his death , and his blood cleanseth them from all sin , but who seeks to rely upon his outward coming , and suffering● ▪ and deny and crucifi● his appearance of Light , and Life in their heart● , have no p●rt in him . But thou altogether excludes his inward coming by his Life and Spirit in mens hearts , from havi●g any share in mens Redemp●ion , and Salvation , whereas the Apostle speaks of being sav●d by his Life , and mentions ● ▪ day of Redemption ▪ that was yet to come , after his outward sufferings , u●to which those who first believed in him , were 〈◊〉 , and though the Apo●●le says ▪ if while we were enemies , we were reconciled to God , by 〈◊〉 death of his Son , yet he adds , much more shall we besaved by his Life , and though thou use● thi● Scripture to prove , that men are fully and perfectly reconciled with God sing●y and solely upon the account of what Christ did & suffered without us in his cru●ified body , excluding so much as any inward quallification wrought by him in u● , ●et it is but an abuse of the place , ●nd a wresting the word● , beyond the true int●nt and sence of the spirit ▪ nor need I go any further , then thy own confession , to alleadg● a more safe way of understa●ding that Scripture , as whe●e thou says , page 13. Al●h●ugh in the day● of Isaiah ▪ Ch●ist was not 〈◊〉 come in our flesh , y●t the prop●●● spe●ks ●f ●t , as a 〈◊〉 al●eady done it being so i● the purpose of God and so why 〈…〉 said that 〈◊〉 speak● of being reconcil'd after this manner , it being so in the purpose of God , to reconcile them , fully unto him , not as they remain in enmity to him , but turned from it and so become friends and love●s of him , and we do willingly acknowledge , the full and perfect Redemption , was in Christ , while we were enemies , yet we did not receive it , while we continued enemies , but now since we believed , and were turned to him ▪ in our hearts , we have received it , as said the Apostle , by whom we have now received the attonement , or reconciliation , so mark the word [ 〈◊〉 ] we have now received the reconciliation , now since we believed , and were turned to him in our hearts , but not before . In the 17 page whereas thou accuses us , With denying the true Christ and asserting another , ye● thou art found in the same guiltiness thy self , which we are free of , for we believe and acknowledge him , who was manifest in that body of flesh , to be the true and only Christ and Saviour , and yet we believe him also to be the only true Christ and Saviour as manifest ●n us , for he is not two Christs but one , though he has had two manners or ways of coming , as without us , and within us , both useful and needful , yea , both concurring unto our full and perfect deliverance and sa●vation , from sin and the consequences thereof in soul and body , and we believe that his outward coming was not a bare and naked example , but hath a real influence and service in its place in and upon all , who are saved , though all have not that express knowledge thereof , yea will thou not confess that infants are saved by Christ , who yet have not this express know●edge of him . But that I may make it appear , that thou denyes the true Christ , I shall bring th● own words page 17. Where thou expressly denyes , that this light , which enlightens every man tha● comes into the world is Christ , and what is this to deny Christ , and to deny the Scriptures Testimony of him , for said he himself I am the light of the World , and said John of him , he was the true light that enlightens every man that comes into the world that all through 〈…〉 believe , and if all through him might believe ( which was Johns Testimony ) then all through him might be saved . But thou wilt have this light not to be in Christ , but some other light which remained in Ad●m after his transgression , and before the promise of the M●ssiah , and stands in every man , as a witness for God , whe●●by he shall be left without excuse , on the day of his righteous judgement , but thou gives no shadow of proof for it , that this Light is another , for though 〈◊〉 quenched the part●cular measure o● his light in him : at his transgression , yet he had ( to wit Ch. ) a residue of light to reach forth unto him again , though Adam changed yet Chri●t remained the same , and shined a light in his conscience in the midst of all that darkness he had let in by hi● transgression , and who was it that convinced him of his sin , but Christ , to whom all judgement is committed and who was it . that first p●eached the Gospel to him , was it not Christ , was not God in Christ reconciling even Adam unto himself , after the fall and did not Christ come again to give light and life unto Adam behoved not Adam to know Christ within him ▪ else he had been a reprobate , was not the word of Faith brought near to him , even in his heart was not the seed sown in him , which hath its fruit eternal Life , and did not this seed in him bruise the Serpents head , and i● Ab●l Enoch , Noah , and though we say that the seed of the woman , which bruiseth the Serpents head , be Christ within , yet we do not limit your words to him , as only within , for they may be partly understood of his coming within , and also of his coming w●thout for in both he bruizes the serpents head , & what pittiful ignorant reasonings is it in thee , as to say , he ( to wit God ) did not direct him to tha● ligh● in his conscience &c. in pointing out to him a remedy , but I ask thee was not Adam saved or to be saved , as other men to w●om Paul th●s saith . Say not in thy heart who shall ascenà into He●ven &c. For the word is very n●ar unto thee , even in thy heart , and this said he is the word of Faith which we preach , and Mose● directed the J●ws to the 〈◊〉 word , ●eu 30 , and was not the voice of Go● in the Garden heard in Adam , and the same word also in his heart which is call●d the ingrafted or implanted word , that is able to save the soul. And that Law , and Nature , by which the Gentiles did the things contained in the Law , thou will not have it to Be the Law ; and Nature of Christ but some other thing , but what thou tells not , but this hath been so oft over again and again confuted in our friends printed books , that herein I need say little or nothing to it , which thou hast borrowed , from the blind and dark Priests , which have so taught thee , though some time ago , thou came by this Light which now thou disputes against to be in some measure convinced , that it was the true and sa●ing Light , alas ! for thee , that thou hast let the darkness so blind thy understanding , after it was a little ope●ed , God be merciful unto thee , and give thee a sight of thy folly and enmity against the truth , and a heart to repent therefore . Only shall propose a few Queries unto thee , which may serve to show , that the Nature and light by which these Gentiles did the things of the Law , and knew God , was that of Christ , for 1 ▪ How could they do the things of the Law , but by the Divine Nature of Christ , seeing without him men can do no good thing ! 2. How could they be excused , but by Christ , as some were , yea . 3. How could they be without excuse ▪ who dis●beyed , if they had no principle given them , sufficient , whereby to perform their obedience , which is only Christ , for an insufficient principle had been a sufficient excuse for them . 4. How did some of them perfect the Law , and judged the circumsion and was Jews inwardly and had praise of God , if not by Christ. 5. How could they clearly see the invisible things of God , but by Christ the Son , seeing it is said , none knows the Father , but the Son ▪ and he to whom the Son reveals him , and though these invisible things are clearly seen in or through the things that are made yet not without that which is to be known of God ▪ manifest in them , which God had shewed unto them , which gave them an eye , or understanding to see his invisible power and Godhead in these things . And thus I have gone through all these things in thy book , which deserve any consideration , so far as they relate to us , and our 〈◊〉 , the other pages in thy book being spent almost wholly in provi●● that , which none of us deny , nor any called Christians that I know of 〈◊〉 thou setst up a man of straw ; to create work unto thy self to knock 〈◊〉 down as to prove that Christ is outwardly come in the flesh , and suffered and died , and offered up himself and his body , and life , unto God , for a sacrifice of attonement , all which the Scriptures approve better then thee , and who among Christians deny it , but under all this , it may appear , that thou secretly labours to prove that the Name of Jesus Christ , Redeemer and Saviour belongs only , to the word , as it was manifest in that particular body and form of man , born of the Virgin Mary , but no to him as manifest in the Saints , which both contradicts the Scripture Testimony , and also thy own words elsewhere , who speaks of Christ within , yea of his being formed within and though we do wi●lingly grant that the word , as it became manifest in that flesh , and form of man , and assumed un●o it , the seed o` Abraham , is called and indeed is Jesus Chri●t , yet we may not limit nor confine th● Name on●y to him as manifest in the outward , for as he is inward●y revealed in us he is called Christ , yea by him , even J●sus Christ , were all things 〈◊〉 said 〈◊〉 Apostle But I cannot before I have done with thee but take notice how in divers places , thou disingeniously represents our 〈◊〉 , and words , flinging thy scoffs and jears at the blessed and 〈◊〉 seed , cal●ing it a stra●ge allegorical mistical Christ , but if he be so 〈◊〉 u●to thee● it is because thou hast spent thy eye● upon his light in thee which would have given thee , true acquaintance with him . But dare th●u deny it , is there not a divine and elect seed in the Saints by which he is formed in them , and liveth in them , and is h● not crucified in some and raized , or arizen in others and how could this be , but in respect of t●e ●eed , for as he is in the Father , and was with the Father , before the World began , he cannot be said to be crucified nor raized . And oh how b●dly and disingeniously thou represents us as saying ▪ That it is the seed that it is only to be rede●med 〈…〉 , as being under the Law , sin , condemnation , Whereas we say indeed , that the seed suffers u●der sin and is to be raised from under it , yet the soul , yea and the who●e man is also to be saved within ; and through the s●ed whoever believe in Christ and are joyned to him , but we do not say , the seed is condemned , unless by such a spirit as thine , as drowns it calling it but a Natural thing , as the Iews condemned Christ calling him but a Man , the Carpenters Son and then in thy ignorance and envy thou asks , if in eve●y man , this seed or Christ is not saved ? doth it remain for ever in some under condemnation ? I answer nay , for though for a time it suffer , yet in the time appointed of God , it is raised up in all , even the most ungodly , over all their ungodliness to minister in them , the Wrath and righteous judgement of the Lord against them , without mercy , as thou wilt find by sad experience if in time thou repent not which I wish from my heart , even that repentance may be given thee , for all thy enmity and hard speeches against him and his truth . Again how grosly and disingeniously thou wrests the words of some of us , viz. That Christ was sometime preached a● crucified , to the Iews but more generally a light to the Gentiles ▪ as if there were one Christ ( says thou ) to wit , a crucified Christ , preached to the Iew● , and another Christ , to wit , a Light enlightning every man that comes ●nto the World , prea●hed unto the Gentiles , but this is a most piteous and abominable wresting of these words aforesaid , which do not import 2 Christs but but one and the same in a twofold way of manifestation , or appearance , and though Prophets and Apostles preached him , as in the form of a man , yet they preached him also , and that more generally , as a light to the Geutiles , yea and to Iews also . Thou would also perswade simple people as if we did separate the benefit of Christs outward coming from inward , while thou speaks , after this manner ▪ How are you thus iniferably be beguilded to preach up the Light enlightning ●vory man , that comes in●o the World for 〈◊〉 Christ to cry up a light within , 〈◊〉 cry down the blood without , to preach him as an example , to cast out the 〈…〉 but though we preach him as the sight that enligh●ens 〈…〉 , and cry up the light within , yet we cry not down the blood without , no● in preaching him , as an example do we deny the a●●onement 〈◊〉 are bu●●hy false and groundless insinuations , and as touc●●ng our preaching him , as the light that enlightens every man that comes in●o the world , that all though him might believe and so be saved thou 〈◊〉 as well have bespoke Iohn , after that manner , saying O● thou miserable begui●ed John , who preaches the light that enlightens every man that com●s into the world to be Christ ▪ for so he preached him and so did others . I shall yet take notice of two or three passages 〈◊〉 in thy book , and so leave it , for to trace and follow thee in all thy confusions and dark imaginations , were neither worth the travel , nor the time , for by these few hints , the weakest of any true judgement , may perceive , what a bulk of confusion thy book is . Pag. 27. thou says , That light and salvation of the Gentiles prophesied ●f 49. 6. Isa. is not said , I will give it , the light that enlightens every man that comes into the world , for that was already given to every ma● ▪ as he came into the worl● , but it is , I will give , speaking of one to be given , that which was not actually given , for a lig●ht to the Genttles , but this is a most weak and shallow manner of reasoning , for though Christ was given in some measure , for ● light from the beginning , and even in the darkest times , yet afterwards he came to be given in a greater measure , of light and manifestation , so here is not another light , then was given at first , but a further measure of the same , for in ●he beginning was the word Christ Jesus , and in him was life , and the life was the light of men . And thus all thy other empty & shallow reasonings may be answered in many other place , which speaks of Christ as a light , a Prophet &c. which thou would confina onely to him , as outwardly come ▪ as particularly that of Moses , a Prophet shall the Lord your God raise unto you , like unto 〈◊〉 , which thou would onely hint and confine to his outward coming and becoming many in the land of Judea , for otherwise thou says , it could not be said , that he should be raised up l●ke unto Moses , for Moses was a man. But the light and power , and spirit within , is not a man , as Moses was . But if we go to scan too narrowly upon this word like unto me , as if it did import every way a like , it will not answer thy intent , for Christ , even as man in divers weighty circvmstances was unlike to Mos●s , Christ was bo●n of a Virgin , so not Moses , Christ never sinned so not Moses , and many others migh● be named , but if thou say Moses and Christ were like to one another , in that likeness , understood by the spirit , so say I , which yet is not confined simply or onely to his manhood , for even Christ in spirit was and is raised up like unto Moses insomuch that as Moses was given of God as an outward deliverer of the out●ard Israel , from out of Egypt , and from under Pharoah in the outward , destroying their enemies without , and leading them through a red sea and wilderness outward into a good outward land , and giving them Laws and Precepts from God &c. So Christ even in Spirit is given of God as an inward deliverer , of the inward Israel from out of spiritual Egypt , and from under spiritual Pharoah destroying their inward and spiritual Enemies , leading them through an inward and spiritual sea & wilderness ▪ into a good spiritual land , giving them spiritual Laws & Precepts from God , and stoning them to death with a spiritual stone , who do not observe them , and is this no likeness at all intended by the spirit of God , as the sense of these words of Moses ? How has thy prejudice blinded thee in this and many other things ? Last of all I cannot but reprove thee , for thy disingenuous and deceitful insinua ion in the last page of thy Book , in these words . How much sor●r punishment shall he be thought worthy of that hath trod under foot the Son of God , and counted the blood of the Covenant an unholy thing 〈◊〉 the blood of any ordinary man ●r beast . But did thou ever read or hear from any of us , as if we counted the blood of Christ , even in the outward , as the blood of any ordinary man , or beast ? or thinks thou to infer such a conclusion from our principle as because we say , Christ the light within us is precious and saving , that therefore we account his blood as the blood of any ordinary man , or beast , but I must tell thee thy inference is bad and deceitful and doth no wise follow from our principle , as is evident from what is aforesaid , yea the spilt blood of his Saints ▪ and their death is of great account with the Lord , when brought to it through the violence of men , acted by Sathan , and much more the blood of him , who as a Lamb offered up himself without spot to God , as a sacrifice of a sweet smell who was delivered for our offences , and rose again for our justification . G. K. Writ 7. 2. mo , 1670. Here follows Robert Gordon's answering and confuting himself ; some of his manifest Contradictions ; to his Principles being insert , in his own words : And the Pages of his Book noted where they are . R. Gs. Principles . GOd man , in whom all things pertaining to mans redemption , &c. were transacted not in our persons or within us , but in his crucified body without us , before any good wrought in us . He hath already subdued all things , finished trasgression , made an end of sin , page 3. and 4. R. G's Contradiction . The mystery of Christ by his spirit dwelling in his Saints , call'd in the holy Scripture , Christ within you , whereby God works in us , &c. God working all things in us by Christ , pag. 4. his Spirit working all their works in them , pag. 5. Observation . See his manifest contradictions : How is sin and transgression finished and made an end of without man , while no good is wrought in them ? And seeing God works or transacts all things in Believers by the mystery of Christ and his holy spirit within , and all their works in them ; how is all done and finished without them before any good is wrought in them ? R. G. Some pretend so much zeal for this mystery of Christ , the operation of the Spirit of God in themselves , that they deny the mystery of God in the flesh of Christ , page . 5. Contradiction . The mystery Christ within you , whereby God works in us through faith the fruit and effect of the work already wrought , &c. Christ within us whereby through faith we have evidence in our selves , &c. page 4. Observation . We cannot too much own , or be over much zealous for the mystery of Christ within , or the work of God through his spirit within us : nor thereby deny the mystery of God in the flesh of Christ , or the effect and benefit of his sufferings in his body , as falsly is implied and insinuated against us , since that in owning Christ in the mystery , we cannot but own the evidence thereof . R. G. In the crucified body of Christ perfected and wrought at once Redemption , Iustification and Reconciliation , finished and compleated in Christ for us , pag. 13. not in our persons , pag. 4. Contradiction . He was delivered for our offences , he was raised again for our justification . O remember the work of regeneration is to be wrought within thee , pag. 9. Observation . If Redemption , Justification , &c. be not to be fulfilled by Christ in man , or not in their persons : what are you redeemed ●●stified or regenerated ) from or out of : Surely not from iniquity or sin , as true believers were ; and then you hypocriss ●in is remaining in your persons , foa all your pretenses of being redeemed , justified , &c. without . But take thy contradiction . O remember the work of regeneration i● is to be wrought within thee , R. G. He was made sin for us , that we might be made the righteousness of God in him . He mentions not any consideration , qualification or work wrought , or to be wrought in any man by any light or spirit whatsoever [ A gross errour ] but singlely and solely upon the account of the active and passive obedience of the man Iesus , &c. pag. 12. in the crucified body , justification , &c. finished , compleated for us , pag. 13. Contradiction . Who seeing the travel of his soul , was satisfied that he might make it effectual within every man , that should come to God through him ; he counted to his Apostles the word of reconciliation as his Ambassadors in his steed to beseech men to be reconciled to God. Work out your salvation , pag. 12. Observation . But first , Were the Saints made the righteousness of God in Christ , without any inward qualification or work of his light or spirit ? What a gross errour , contradiction and sin-pleasing doctrine is this ! Is not this the Priests very notion of imputation , while men are corrupt and sinful in themselves , while they neither partake of the divine nature nor divine image in themselves ; And then , Secondly , what need was there for the Apostle to besee●h them to be reconcil'd to God , or to work out their salvation , if it was already wrought and finished without them before any good was wrought in them ? R. G. The Lord doth not direct man to that light in his conscience that shewed him his loss , nor to light and power &c. But promiseth him another kind of Saviour . Contradiction . A great mystery , God manifest in the flesh , &c. He alone , and none else then the very Word ; the love of the Father must be this great undertaker , &c. ( viz. for man ) pag. 20. Observation . See his manifest falshood and contradiction : For God the very word or love of the Father , which doth redeem , deliver and save the soul , are not of another kind then the Light and Power : But the same divine Light and Power , by which the promised Seed , did , and doth bruise the Serpents head , and overcome him , that man might be redeem'd from the hand of his enemy . R. G. The worker of the Redemption could not be the light enlightening every man , &c , pag. 21 , Contradiction . [ Yet ] the very word ( pag. 20. ) God manifest in flesh . p. 18. Observation . Here his gross error and contradiction , in denying Christ , the Word and Redeemer , to be that light that enlightens every man , and yet the very word doth redeem and save : And was it not the Word that was with God that was the true Light , that enlightens every man coming into the world ? See Io. 1. 1. 4 , 9. R. G. Redemption , and all things already wrought , purchased , &c. for us in the crucified body ; not within us , but before any good wrought in us , pag. 3 , 4 , 5 , without the help of any thing to be wrought in us , pag. 20 , Contradiction . He ( to wit Christ ) ever liveth : Mark , this man ever liveth to make intercession for them . O bear with me a little , not satisfie your selves until you have a real evidence of your being particularly redeemed by experimentally witnessing the Living power of truth in your inward parts , pag. 7. Observation . Note his contradiction here . For first , if all things be already wrought in the crurified body , what doth he interceed for ? Is it for that which God cannot justly with-hold ( if this be true ) Secondly , are all things already wrought without the help of any thing to be wrought within : And yet we must have a real evidence of our part●cular redemption by the living power of truth in our inward parts . See how he hath confuted himself herein . R. Gs. Erroneous and envious Principle . That such as preach and print up the light inlightening every man that comes into the world to be he ( to wit Christ ) reject him , and set at nought the stone , &c. pag. 32. Contradiction . This is the Christ to whom John came to bear witness , and there is not another ; he is the word made slesh , pag. 31 , 32. the word was not converted into flesh , but remain'd the word still , pag. 22. Observation . This man preacheth up that in one place to be the Christ , which in another place he preaches down or denies it to be : For that Christ that Iohn came to bear witness , to that was the word ( that became flesh and tabernacled in them ) was the true light that enlightens every man that comes into the world mentioned before ( Ioh. 1. ) But this R. G. Further shews his Self-confutation , Enmity , and Anti-christian spirit against the true Christ , who is the light . See here R. G. his Anti-christian doctrines against the universal light and power of God and his Son , Io. 1. ch . Viz. 1. That the spirit that publisheth , that the light that enlighteneth every man that comes into the world is the true Christ , is a snare carrying death in the bosom of it , pag. 10. 2. That the light that enlightens every man that comes into the world , is not he ( to wit Christ ) pag. 20. 3. That the worker of redemption could not be the light and power , pag. 21. 4. That the bearer away of iniquity cannot be a meer spiritual Christ , altogether light and power within , pag. 22. 5. That the true Christ , man's only Saviour and Redeemer , and the light and salvation of the Gentiles prophesied of Esa. 49. 6. is not the light that enlightens every man that comes into the world , pag. 26. 27. 6. That the unbelieving Iew who rejected Christ , yet had a clearer sight of him then they have who assert that the light that enlighteneth every man that comes into the world is he , and that such are wholly ignorant , pag. 29. 7. That none of the Prophets ever witnessed the light that enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world to be the true Christ , pag. 32 , 33. 8. That they deny the Lord that bought them , who set the light that enlightens every man to be the true Christ and Saviour , pag , 40. 9. That such are miserably beguiled , who preach up the light enlightening every man that comes into the world for the true Christ , pag. 37. R. Gs. Contradictions to his Principles before cited . He is Iesus Christ the same , yesterday , to day , and for ever without beginning or end of dayes , he is the word by which the world is made ; yea , of the Son it is said , thou Lord in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth , and thus he is the wisdom and power of God , pag. 23. This is the Christ , to whom John came to bear witness , and not another , he is the word , pag. 31 , 32. Redemption is see● by the light of the glorious Gospel shining in our hearts , pag. 25. Old Simeon was a devout man , obedient to the light in his conscience , he waited for the consolation of Israel , and it was revealed to him by the holy Ghost , Luk. 2. 17. through it in himself he waited the appointed time , &c. Observation . Christ said , I am the light of the world , Io. 8. 12. ch . 12. 46. and ch . 3. 19. and that was the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world ; Io. 1. 1. ( read on ) and that light which brings to see Redemption , and revealed the consolation of Israel , to wit , salvation by Christ was his light within , wherein Simeon and others of the holy men of God waited , and this was a light of the glorious Gospel or power of God shining in the hearts , &c. R. Gs. Principle . That the light in our consciences that shews good and evil , is not given for righteousness , nor able to reveal or give life ( any more then the law writte● in Tables of Stone . ) p. 11. R. G's . Contradiction . [ Yet ] Old Simeon was obedient to the light in his conscience , &c. Redemption is seen by the light shining in our hearts , &c. ( as before . ) Observation . Then the light in the conscience is given for righteousness ( if to be obeyed ) for it manifests evil , and leads out of darkness , and sin where it is obeyed , and every one that doth truth cometh to the light , that his deeds may be manifest that they are wrought in God , Io. 3. wherefore the light in the conscience is given for righteousness : and the path of the Just is a shining light , and the life that was the light of men is above and before the Letter or Law writen in tables of stone , as to giving of life . R. G. God said to Adam , in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt die ( it could not be revoked ) who could fulfil the requirings of Wrath and satisfie ? not Light and Power , &c. But he who trod the Wine . Press of his Fathers wrath alone , P. 19. 20. R. G's . Contradiction . The Chastisements of our Peace were upon him , &c. p. 21. Observation . Mark , here , Wrath and Chast●sements are two differing things , and differ in the execution ; as Chastisement is in love to Gods People , who receive the Attonement , but Wrath and Vengeance due to Rebellion ; and is to come upon them whom he will tread down in his anger , and trample in his fury , even in the Wine-press of his wrath , as Isai. 63. Now it appears , this R. G. takes this , as Christs stopping ( or treading down ) the Fathers wrath , ( as his words import ) wherein he is greatly mistaken ; for it is rather an executing of his wrath , and revenge upon the wicked or Persecutors , whom he will trample in his fury for the deliverance of his own Seed , and ransomed ones : And this Christ who is both the wisdom , light , and power of God , can , and will do , by whose power also salvation for sin and death , is witnessed in them that believes in the Divine Light and Power , which is able to give us all things pertaining to life and godliness , 2. Pet. 1. 3. R. G. Redemption is a Mystery , which by the Principles of right reason , cannot be discerned . Contradiction . But is seen by the light of the glorious Gospel shining in our hearts , p. 25. Answer . Right reason doth spring from the true light that shineth in the heart , and the good that this light teacheth and sheweth is reasonable or consistent with right reason , however this man seems to decrie right reason ; in some degree therein resembling Lod. Muggleton , ( the false witness ) who saith Reason is the Devil . But this R. G. again in Contradiction to himself , seems to set up right reason , to justifie his Principle , as where he saith , p. 2● . concerning Mary , that the light in her Conscience , is not the Son called Jesus , conceived in her Womb ; Surely that agreeth not to right reason ●aith he . But surely , if he denie the light of the Son of God to be in her Conscience , because of his Conception , or taking on him Flesh in the Virgins womb , he might as well denie and oppose his Divinity ; for 〈◊〉 was not limited into that comp●ss , as not to be in her Conscience , nor was the Son of God and his light to be under such a limitation ( either as to time or place ) as a finite creature , for his out-goings were from of old , from everlasting , Micah 5. 2. Here follows a further Account of some passages taken out of R. Gordons Book , wherein his Confession to the Truth ( professed by us as to the work of the power and spirit of God within ) and his erroneous Contradictions to the same , are set opposite , that his self Confutation and breaking the neck of his own Cause , may be obvious to every 〈◊〉 Reader . R. G. his confessing to truth . R. G. erroneously contradicting . R. G. p. 6. First there is a spirit of Error , ( a ) and its work is to deceive , and its end to destroy such in whom it ruleth , and its deceit is seen under this fair Covering , a pretending to the imputed ( b ) righteousness of Christ , pleading a faith in his Death and Sufferings , interest in the satisfaction and attonement made to God through his blood , but under all this , retaining the serpents ( c ) nature , In their soul preserving alive in themselves unmortified corruptions bearing dominion ( c ) over them , ( d ) O be not so easily decieved , God will not be thus mocked , he sees not as man sees , ( e ) he trieth the heart and reins . Know of a truth , such as you sow , such shall you reap ; to whom you yield your selves servants to obey , his servants you are , whether of ●in unto death , ( e ) or of obedience unto rightousness ; and on the day of the Lord every Kingdome shall have its own , on the day of that wonderful severation , when the Lord shall judge the world by the man Christ Jesus , every thing shall be severed to be for ever included in that state whether of light or darkness into which it was sown , according to that righteous proceeding of the son of man , Matt. 25. He shall s●y to the sheep on his right hand , Come ye blessed of my Father inherit the Kingdom ▪ But to the Goa●s on the left hand , depart from me ye cursed , and on that day your supposed coverings though of the imputed ( f ) righteousness of Christ , your high pretences , though to his death and sufferings ; your crying Lord , Lord , will not shelter you from the wrath of the Father , you being wholly altogether of the nature of those Goats on Christs left hand , though pretending to the Sheeps cloathing . Oh! hear with me a little to plead with you in tender compassion to your immortal souls , that you might be perswaded ; Yes , intreated to inquire a little into this matter , not satisfying your selves to say that you believe there is a Redemption ( g ) already purchased you in Christ , until through a living faith in your selves ( h ) you have a real evidence of your being particularly redeemed by experimental witnessing the living power * of the ( i ) Truth in your inward parts , which in words you outwardly profess , Consider the words of our Lord to Nicodemus , Except a man be born again ( k ) he cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , there lyeth an impossibility in this thing , he placeth not Goats , remaining such in their state , in the same place with Sheep ; there is a great gulf between these two : They are of two contrary natures ; Two opposite States and Kingdoms prepared for them . Therefore without being changed , without being in your minds renewed , translated out of darkness into sight , without dying to the old Nature of Sin , and rising in the new nature of Righteousness . And so Christ ( l ) formed within you , you cannot inherit this Kingdom , because without this real change wrought in some measure within you through the Operation of the Spirit of God within ( m ) there is only a dawbing of the old Sepulchre , while rotteness is ●till within , a talking of being justifyed through the Redemption already purchased in Christ , without wi●nessing the Life , Power , and Virtue of the thing it self within . ( n ) Therefore I do exhorts thee 〈…〉 Spirit in thy mind thou art subjected to , for as many as are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God ; and if any man have not the spirit of Christ , ●he is none of his : ●o that it will not be enough to say that Jesus Christ dyed for sinners , and that his righteousness is imputed to thee , as altogether from without thee : O remember the work of Regeneration is to be wrought within thee . R. G erroneously contradicting R. G. ( a ) All things pertaining to man● Redemption , were transacted in God-man ( Christ ) not in our persons , nor within us , but in his crucified body without us , before any good ( b ) wrought in us ; God having already wrought all things for us , in the body of Christ , as being our rightousness . p. 3 , 4. ( c ) He hath already subdued all things , finished transgression , & made an end of sin , abolished condemnation and death , and so hath for ever in himself compleated the work of Redemption , &c. with God for us . p. 4. ( d ) To bear my testimony to the Redemption and Rightousness already purchased in his crucified body for u● , the son buried our sins in his grave , all things are finished , sin , death and the flesh in the body of Christ , p. 5. 16. ( e ) It is a mystery of the Gospel , the believer to be pure and beautiful as in Christ , while weak in many things in himself ▪ in his body he hath a law of sin , but in the Lord he hath put it off , as he walks by sight he is in the Earth , in Labours , in Groaning , warfare , and Imperfections , &c. p. 16. ( f ) The Law , Sin , Death , charged upon his Crucified body he buried them in his Grave , thus abolished Sin out of the sight of God , p. 39. ( g ) Redemption , &c. already wrought , purchased in his Crucified body ( for us ) without us , p. 4. ( h ) The light in the Conscience is not able to reveal or give life , p. 11. ( h ) There is a Spirit in some that declares that we are Redeemed , Iustified , Saved , and made Righteous , and accepted with God by the work of the Spirit * of God wrought within us , p. 11. ( i ) What ever Spirit shall declare Christ now coming , or coming to within us , to Reconcile , to Attone , to Redeem us , &c. is no other than a Denier of Iesus our Saviour , notwithstanding its high pretences to light and power , and Spirit within , p. 15. 16. ( k ) But know thou , O Man , that that Doctrine how misterious soever in shew , that teacheth Redemption to be by Operation of the Spirit within us , and not by that alone * Operation of God in the man Christ Iesus is , it may be agreeable to mans reason , but a fearful co●tradiction to that blessed Mistery of Grace , p. 17. ( l ) Vnder this Mental Reservation , the seed , the light , the nature of the Dove in me , is he the Christ , &c. but is this a form of sound words , pag. 31. ( m ) Come down from the heights of your reason , to believe your Redemption already finished the law of sin and death already abolished , p. 3. 7. through what he did and suffered without you , without respect to any works wrought , or to be wrought ( n ) within you , by any light whatsoever . p. 42. ( o ) The work of Redemption is already 〈◊〉 at once in the Crucified b●dy without us , p. 21. 23. The Ope●●●ion of the Spirit of Christ within us 〈…〉 Redeem 〈◊〉 p. 23. Thus far R. G. hath shewn himself one while like a Quaker ( so called ) having gotten many of their words , another while like a Presbyterian , or Independant ▪ shewing his self-contradiction and instability . And what may the Reader think of him , but that he hath gathered and learned something from the Quakers , or out of their Books [ though he was never of us . ] However like a perverse Apostate he chiefly smites at them , in his enmity chiefly to the injury of his own Soul and Conscience , who for all his opposition , cannot wholly forget , and drive the Quakers principles out of his mind , but is forced to confess to the truth of them to his own confusion and overthrow ; And it 's remarkable that the most of his Pamphlet is confu●ed ; But where he acts the part of a Quaker , ( so called ) whom he further imitates in this wise , ( viz. ) R. G. Christ's Death and Sufferings , his Resurrection and Righteousness will not avail thee , thou remaining in thy self wholly unchanged , unsanctified by and through the operation of the Spirit of Christ within thee , whereby they may become of use to thee , Thou wast dead in Sins and Trespasses , and remains so still , thou wast a child of wrath as well as others , and thou art so still , &c. [ And in his 35 page he goes on thus , viz ] What will an Historical faith ●s of things altogether without , avail thee , while thou hast not the evidence within thy self , by a lively faith of thy being redeemed through the Redemption that is in him ? A ●●attering hypocritical extolling of Christ in his Offices , as King , Priest , and Prophet without thee , while thou deniest him in the exercise of these Offices within thee , by the Operation of his Spirit , &c. And this is thy own condition R. G. as appears by many passages in thy Book , contrary to what here thou hast confessed , as may plainly be seen in comparing thy contradictions before ; and who but one presumptious and impudent , would have appeared thus publick as thou h●●t done , to confute others ▪ ( and to undervalue and oppose the sufficiency of the Light , Power , and Operation of Christ within , as to Redemption , Salvation , and Justification , &c. ) with such a heap of darkness and confusion as thou hast vented , who yet otherwhiles art made to confess to the Operation of the Power and Spirit of Christ within , whose Light is set over the head of all thy Darkness , Deceipt and Enmity , and over all such Backs●iders as are in the same spirit of Enmity and Opposition with thee : such as R● . Cobbet , Elizabeth Atkins ( and Rob. Rich , who is of a Ranting Principle ) [ to whom we may add Muggleton , or his railing against us ; ] who have spread abroad their confused malitious P●mphlets , with their lies and slanders against us , wherein they do but gratifie malitious spirits , Apostates , and Ranters . And seeing that Michael Stantcliff ( who came some years amongst us , professing the Truth with us , and owning the light within , and to some yet doth formally seem as if he were a Quaker , which appea●ance no doubt he hath found to make for his Interest , ) yet is turned into so much dimness , darkness , and enmity again●● the People called Quakers , as to opprove of this Rob. Go●don his Pamphlet ( ●iled , A Testimony to the true Saviour ) as being an Ingenious clear Piece , and that which we could never get through , &c. As also , to help to convey or spread them abroad ( against those that Preach the true light that enlighten● every man that cometh into the world to be Christ , &c. ) R. G ▪ intending chiefly the people called Quakers , against whom he hath insinuated divers forgeries and slanders ; Wherefore we say to thee M. Stantcliff , be ashamed , and repent of thy approving and countenancing such a bundle of Confusion against the truth , and ( against an innocent People whom thou once own●d●t ) remember from whence thou art fallen , and how thou persistest in enmity and prejudice against Truth and us , least the Lord cut thee off , and thou end thy days in trouble and anguish ; we have desired and sought thy good , though thou hast rewarded us evil for good : And now we wish thy Repentance , and pray the Lord forgive thee , that thou mayest not end thy days , and perish in thy Perverseness and gain-saying . Here follows a brief account of some places of Scripture sent to Robert Gordon by Gawin Longworth : R. G. his Answer to them . Ioh. 1. ( from 1. verse forward ) in the beginning was the Word . 12. chap. ver . 46 ▪ I am come a light into the world . 15. chap. ver . 5. I am the vine , ye are the branches . Rom. 8. 10. If Christ be in you , &c. 1. Cor. 1. 24. Christ the power of God , and the wisdom of God. 2. Cor. 13. 3● ▪ Seeing you seek experience of Christ speaking in me . Tit●● 2. 14. Who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity , &c. 1. Ioh. 5. 12. He that hath the Son hath life . Chap. 4. v●r . 4. Greater is h● that is in you , then he that is in the world . Robert Gordons Answer to these Scriptures , viz. I Have considered the Scriptures thou mentioned , and I find that in none of them it is testified who the true Christ our only Saviour is ; but what he is through the operations of his spirit in Believers , called therefore the Anointing within , or Christ within , but these operations of his spirit within are no where in Scripture called the Lord's Christ our only Saviour . And if thou own no other Mediator , Christ or Saviour , then what is described in these Scriptures thou mentions ; then necessarily thou disowns the Lord Iesus Christ of Nazareth , a man approved of God , &c. Thus far R. G. telling us of the writings of that enlightned man , Iacob Behm . Observe . Here the ●enour and tendency of R. G's . Answer , how Antichristian it is ; he appears here plainly as owning another Mediator , Christ or Saviour , then that Christ that said , I am come a light into the world , I am the vine , &c. ( and we ask , was not he Jesus of Nazareth ? ) and of whom it is testified in Scripture , Christ in you , Christ the power and wisdom of God. He that hath the Son hath life , who gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from all iniquity , &c. But R. G. doth not own this Christ to be the Lord 's Christ , or Jesus Christ of Nazareth , but he must have some other Christ then this Christ , that is described in those Scriptures before ( but dare he say that Iacob Behm . owns his doctrine herein ? ) for this Christ who is the Word , the Light , the Christ in Believers , the power and wisdom of God , speaking in Sain●s . R. G. deems but as operations of the Spirit , and not Christ the Operator , Saviour or Redeemer ; wherein he is greatly mistaken , and has out-run himself besides any right aim : For Christ , as the Word , the ●rue Light , the power and wisdom of God , the Redeemer from all iniquity , and as in his Saints , the giver of life and victory over the world , &c. He is the true Operator of God , and the Author of Faith , the worker out of Sin , the Saviour and Redeemer from iniquity ( and so an Operator as such ) he is given for a leader , for light , life , and salvation to all that believe in his light , which will shine , live , prevail , and prosper against all the darkness , dark spirits , and enmity which oppose it . Something further added . HEreby it may appear , and be very obvious to every impartial Reader , how disingeniously , injuriously ; and falsly this R. Gordon hath dealt by us called Quakers , whom he chiefly smi●es at ( chiefly for our so much owning and preaching the true light that enlightens every man ) having , in many things he hath writ , neither given a true account of our principle , nor stated our words , nor the Authors , nor cited our Books or Pages , that it might be seen how he hath wronged us worse then many of the Priests have done , insinuating several falshoods against us , which were never our principles , and then making war against them , and drawing false inferences and consequences upon us , which have neither natural dependence , nor any relation to our principles ; as may be seen at large in his bundle of impertinencies and confusion . And whereas R. G. several times confesseth Christ and his spirit to be within us , revealing and evidencing within us , what God hath wrought for us in the body of Christ , as that love God commended to us in his Son , through his suffering and death , according to his 1. 4. and 23. pages . Now mark herein he hath in some degree assented to the truth of our principle , though to his own confusion ; for that it follows , that our preaching Christ and his Spirit in the true Believers , doth not oppose nor make void his sufferings without , but evidence and make known the benefit and living effects thereof within , and bring both into the fellowship of Christs suffering , and to a conformity unto his death . But this R. G. in contradiction to himself , like a malitious injurious person , insinuates ●gainst us the dividing and opposing Gospel truths one to another , and a denying the mystery of God in the flesh of Christ , as a matter of any necessity to redemption , reconciliation , &c. falsly adding these words , viz. R●ck●ing to accomplish this in their own bodies each for himself , through obedience to the law or light in his conscience , &c. pag. 5. This is a false conclusion put upon us , and contrary to what this man hath confessed before : For it s not of our selves , but God that works in us to will and to do by his spirit and power , which evidenceth and revealeth in us life and salvation , by Jesus Chri●t , who is our Saviour and Redeemer , and by him and in him hath God appeared to reconcile us to himself , who hath wrought all our works in us , Isa. 26. 12. and to this we testifie in his Son ( who is made unto us wisdom , righteousness , sanctification and redemption ) and against all such dark spirits and opposers of his light and work within , as this our Opposer is , who saith that God man in his crucified body without us , and before any good wrought in us , hath already subdued all things , finished transgression , made an end of sin , abolished condemnation and death , hath for ever as our head in himself compleated the work of redemption , reconciliation with God for us , &c. God having already finished , wrought and accomplished all things for us in the body of Christ , pag. 3 , 4 , 5 , 9 , 12 , 13. And further he adds , pag. 26. v●z . having already vanquished in his crucified body , and buried in his grave sin and death , and all the powers that were against us : But in contradiction to h●s asserting all these things as wrought in his body , he layes it otherwhiles upon purchase , as redemption , reconciliation , righteousness , &c. being already purchased for us in his crucified body without you , without respect to any works wrought , or to be wrought within you by any light whatsoever . Thus far R. G. pag. 4 , 5 , 9 , 23 , 42. But to go round again in contradiction to this , of all this being wrought , accomplished , and purchased without in his crucified body without respect to his light and work within , R. G. confesseth and tells us of God working all things in us by Christ , the mystery of Christ within , and the operations of his spirit working all their works in them , p. 4 , 5. From whence it then follows , that all is not wrought and accomplished without them , nor ought the work or light of Christ within thus to be disrespected as this man most blindly doth ; neither is mens sin and death either vanquished or buried in the grave with Christs body without ; for sin and death reigns in and over all men till they be quickned and renewed by the spirit of Christ within , and raised up out of sins and trespasses , : and in this sense we own true beleevers and sanctified ones to be purchased unto God , and hereby an everlasting inheritance obtained or purchased , and that God hath purchased his Church with his own blood , Act. 20. 28. And that such as were a chosen or purchased people or generation , were a royal Priesthood , a holy Nation , a peculiar People to shew forth the praise of him who had called them out of darkness into his marvellous light , 1 Pet. 2. 9. So such did not 〈◊〉 and oppose the light within , nor disrespect its work within as to the purchasing and redeeming man to God ; as this blind Opposer hath done , whose confusion runs after this manner , viz. all things are already wrought and compleated for us in the crucified body without ( nay ) God works all things in us by Christ the mystery , the operations of the spirit of God works all their works in them : See here how inconsistent this mans work is , and how he hath broke the neck of his own cause . But for whom doth R. G. reckon ? hath this God-man ( as he calls him ) or God and Christ ( in union ) wrought and compleated , or purchased all , as redemption , salvation , righteousness , &c. was it for all or but for a few ? See his Answer . R. G. pag. 13. For the sins of the whole world past , present ▪ and to come , &c. A large confession and latitude to the world , indulging them in sins to come , as the sin-pleasing professions are wont to do , and further to hearten them on therein all their dayes , he reckoneth God doth not see their sin in them , pag. 39. And surely they cannot be hindred of salvation for all this , nor it in justice be detained from them , because it s so dearly purchased and paid for , and wrought wit● God , by his Son , when no good is wrought in man ( if you believe R. G. ) which doctrine tends to make a merry world in their sins ( and not to regard the work of God within ) as it hath made many hypocrits , and many such merry also over God's witness or light in them , which would have wrought good in them , had they own'd it to have wrought evil out of them . But seeing R. G. hath run into the Priests and Professors doctrine , in his confused way and method , maintaining their principle of satisfaction and imputation , opposing the light and work of Christ or the spirit within as to justification , redemption , or salvation within . Let 's first inquire how he states this satisfaction ( or work that he thinks was wrought with God by the man Christ , but not in man ) R. G. God said to Adam , in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt dye , and because he is God it could not be revoked , the justice of God must stand firm in the execution of this sentence , he is just and righteous as well as l●ving , justice to be answered to the full ; who could break thorough this stir'd up wrath ? who could have answered the requirings of love , and fulfil the requirings of wrath that would hold man captive in death , and yet satisfie both ? Not its light and power in the man Christ , or the light enlightning every man that comes into the world , not the word alone , but Iesus Christ partaking of our flesh and blood , as being the Son of the Virgin Mary , pag. 19 , 20. Note his errour in denying the light to be Christ , and so opposing Christs Divinity . Let the impartial Reader judge of this man's confusion and ignorance herein , in these his distinctions about God and Christ , and between Christ and the light and power within , not owning the light that enlightens every man to be Christ , or the Son of God contrary to Scripture ; whereas the light that enlightens every man , is that eternal word that made all things , which to say , this cannot answer or satisfie love and wrath , is a blasphemous opposing the omnipotency and power of God , as if he could not satisfie himself in either , and his sl●ghting and debasing the divine light , and power of Christ in man , and so undervaluing God , as if he were no Saviour , especially while this man thinks God was so displeased , and his wrath so stirred up , that it would hold man captive in death , unless Christ as the Son of Mary , should satisfie and answer this wrath , and undergo this death , another while ( in contradiction ) it was as God man that he satisfied , &c. which if he take it to be an eternal death or wrath , that was threatned on man for disobedience , I ask if Christ did undergo that either as God or as man , or as both ? and dare any say plainly that God executed wrath and revenge from himself upon his innocent Son , or take vengeance upon the Son of his love , or could that be an answering of divine Justice , so to take vengeance on the innocent , and let the guilty go free , with their sins past , present and to come ; and then , if all be if all be thus wrought and purchased of God by Christ , paid and satisfied for in his crucified body : and that for the ●ins of the whole world , and in their stead , and that for their sins past , present and to come : then how can God in justice execute wrath or revenge on any for sin , if his innocent Son hath undergone it and satisfied it all , and that for all men , for sins past , present , and to come : And then what manifest contradiction is it for this man to confess to his intercession , his ever living to make intercession for them that come to God by him ( though this we own ) But how doth this agree with the doctrine of such a rigid or severe satisfaction and payment as before implied ? For if the Son endured the Fathers wrath to the full , and thereby stop● it ( for Priests call it vindictive Justice ) doth not this ●ender God to be more severe than his Son ; yea , and unjust also : As if a Creditor should keep or leave the Debtor in prison , and alwaies be interceded to , either for his deliverance or forgiveness , when his Surety hath paid and satisfied to the utmost farthing that could in the rigour of the law be exacted upon the Debtor ; which much less can be either mercy , forgiveness , or remission : But if it be granted that forgiveness of sins must be asked at God's hand for Christs sake , and that man must repent and be converted , that his sins may be forgiven and blotted out , and that he may be under God's terms , and under an obligation to believe , obey and follow the spirit of Christ within , in its inward operations and teachings ; then this confutes this man and all such carnal professors : For all is not done without , nor● man absolved or discharged in the Court of Heaven ( as Priests use to say ) either from the guilt or punishment of sins past , present and to come , seeing that all judgment is committed to the Son , and men are not acquitted , by his sufferings without , either from the obligation or obedience of his law within , which is that of the spirit or new covenant which is inward , but are liable to the censure and judgment thereof , if they disobey it , and walk contrary to the spirit of truth within , wherein we are not without the law to God , but under the law to Christ. And God is not satisfied with men in their sins , his wrath being revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness of men , how ever they may imagine Christ to have satisfied is in their stead , and removed it out of God's sight . And further , as to that death that came over Adam in that day he transgressed , it was not the sentence of eternal wrath and destruction , given and fulfilled by God , but a death from that innocent life and communion which he had with God before , as the fruit of his transgression which God foretold , and threatned them with before , not as from an obligation upon God presently to take full revenge on man , or to cut him off for ever the same day he transgressed ; for that he did not , neither was his divine justice such an obligation upon him as to limit him from shewing mercy or forgiveness ( on repentance ) and salvation without such a rigid payment or severe kind of satisfaction as is supposed ; for he said I am a just God , and Saviour , and besides me there is no Saviour : and in his mercy and love to lost man in general , he both promised and gave a seed to bruise the Serpents head , and to be a ransom , attonement , and most acceptable and satisfactory sacrifice as a Lamb without spot to God , not as the subject of wrath or vindictive Justice , but as a sweet smelling sacrifice to God , and propitiation for mankind , and to be a living example through all , not only to end the law and sacrifices without , but also to bring the true believer through , and beyond the ministration of death , condemnation and wrath within , into peace and union with G●d , who out of his infinite love , sent his Son to save man from sin and death , whose suffering , sacrifice , mediation , in●ercession and offices ( with the blessed effects thereof within ) we own and confess according to the Scriptures of truth , as inwardly revealed and evidenced by the spirit , which we do not admit , either o● sins past to be unrepented of , nor of sins present to be committed , nor sin ●o come to be persisted in , however this , or other Opposers and Prof●ssors do sooth and flatter themselves therein , under their traditional notion , of a satisfaction , and imputation without them , p. 16. ( as after R Gs. q●estions ) How can there be redemption , where conscience ●hargeth of sin , is it not against reason to believe redemption in another for us while sin is within ? To this he thus answers ; To this spirit , I say , who art thou that thus a●gues with God ? Which indeed is no answer nor proof , but a meer s●lly begging of the question , nor any demonstration that such a belief , that is both contrary to conscience and the conviction of the light therein , is either true or right in the ground of it , whereby any are thus credulous either of their being redeemed , saved or j●stified wi●hout them , whilst they lie under the guilt and imputation of sin in their own consciences , sin being then their burden and bondage , which is contrary to a redeemed and justified state ; but such a blind and dead faith , and conceit of redemption and justification , as this man hath appeared in , hypocritical Professors are w●nt to sooth up themselves withal in their sins . And R. G. further adds , p. 1● . viz. Indeed it is a mystery of the Gospel that man's r●ason cannot comprehend , the believer to be pure and beautiful as in Christ his head , while weak in many things in himself , in his body 〈◊〉 ●ath a law of sin , but in the Lord he hath put it off ; as he walks by ●ight he is in the earth , in labors , ingroanings , warefare and imperfections ; but as he walks by faith he is in Christ , walking in rest , in victory and perfection , these ●r● paradoxes reason cannot fathom . Answ●● This man thinks hee 's gotten beyond reason in his parado●es , which indeed do appear so contradictory , confused and unreasonable , that every rational man may see his darkness herein , to conclude the believer in war●ar● , and imperfections in the body , with a law of sin , while pure , beautiful , walking in rest , in victory and perfection in Christ his head , which is all one , as to say he i● in Christ ; and out of Christ , pure and impure , perfect and imperfect , at the same instant , or ( as the hypocritical Priests and Professors have said ) that men are imputatively righteous , and justified , while inherently and actually sinful and unjust : and yet for all this R. G. makes account in pag. 39. that the law , sin and death are so charged on Christs crucified body , that sin is purged away out of the sight of God ; while yet he does not believe , h●s people act●●lly ●reed from it , which is corrupt Antinamionisme , but these and such like paradoxes ●e cannot own , as either reason or truth : For how is Christ the Believers and Saints head , or they perfect in him , if they be imperfect or impure in the body ? are they not members of Christ ? and is not their faith their victory over sin and death ? And is it no ▪ perfection they have wa●ted and travelled , to be ●e●ewed into the image of the heavenly ? Where 's the new birth , new creature , perfect on , righteousness and true holiness , so much preached , and testified of , by the holy men of God in the Scriptures of truth ? if men must be reckoned pure , and perfect , and in Christ when yet they are not washed from their fi●thiness , in which state many are , when yet they conceit that God counts them pure and j●stified : Bu● he that j●●t fieth the wicked , and he that condemneth the just they both are abo●ination before the Lord. R. G. We find thou hast no● brought forth any new thing as to matter or substance , in these matters , but art p●●nged in the old dark stuff of Priests and Professors , who have writ against us , though thou art more confused , and appearest more malitious against us then many of them ●however thou pretendest love and bowels ▪ p. 40 which cannot hide thy dissimulation and enmity ; and thou hast not methodized nor worded their principles so well as many of them , thou being confounded and mangled between truth and their corrupt traditional principles , which we perceive thou dost not see the bottom and tendency of , however ▪ thou thinkest thou art wise , but the devil hath blinded thee with prejudice and conceit , as he hath all that take thy part , and spread thy books , or else thou durst never have brought such a piece of folly , falshood , and mixt mangled stuff to publick view , as thou hast done , who also to shew thy ignorance of redemption thou usest these words , viz ▪ The operation of the spirit of Christ within us , not to redee●us , p. 23. and Christ came into us by , the ministration of the spirit not to redeem us , pag. 38. Answ. This is contrary to the testimonies of both Prophets and Apostles , who witnessed the redemption of their souls , from under the bondage and power of sin and death , so from the hand of the enemy , Psa. 107. 2. David said , draw nigh unto my soul , and redeem it ; ps . 69 ▪ ●8 . So he did not put redemption afar off ; for the God of Israel was near , whom the people owned for their Saviour and Redeemer from all in●quity , Ps. 130. 7 , 8. And as the Apostle exhorted , grieve not the holy spirit of God , whereby ye are sealed uno the day of redempt on , Eph. 4. 30. So that there was a day of redemption to be expected , unto which they were sealed by the holy spirit ; which redemption was a freedom , recovery or purchase from all iniquity ( which could not be effected without the operation of the spirit of Christ within , who gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from all inquity , Titus 2. 14. But this R. G. would impose on people a faith concerning redemption , reconciliation , and justification , as all being finished , wrought or purchased without them , without respect to any works wrought or to be wrought within them , by any light whatsoever , p. 42. See , Reader , how erroneously he hath excluded the work of God and Christ from within , as to the ransoming or freeing of man from sin , and making him righteous , and so bringing him into unity , peace , favour and friendship with God , which is the true sense of redemption , justification and reconciliation , which are not effected , nor obtained without the operation of the spirit of holiness within ( though Christs testimony , suffering and example without had a tendency thereto ) 1 Cor. 6. 11. For it was by the spirit of God , that the Saints were both washed , sanctified and justified , how ever tke Devil and his Agents endeavour to exclude , and invalidate the inward operations of God , Christ , or his Spirit . G. W. Errata . Page 1. l. 37. ' for consider read crucifie . p. 4. for 1. r. 4. l. 6. for enl●ghtening , r. enlighteneth . p. 12. l. 27 for any , and. p. 14. l. 1. for is this , r. is not this , &c. p. 15. l. 38. for no r. not . p. 16. l. 12. for spent , r. shut . p. 17. l. 39. for hint , r. limit . p. 18. l. 1 , for many r. man. Second part . p. 2. l. 30. for counted . r. committed . p. 8. l. 7. r. Christ now come , dele to . p. 12. l. 2 , for Longworth r. Lawrie . 
A65839	----	The Babylonish baptist, or, H.G. contradicting H.G. in his book stiled Light from the Son of righteousness, which is proved, meer confusion and darkness. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1672 Approx. 10 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 4 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65839 Wing W1893 ESTC R30197 11259258 ocm 11259258 47190 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65839) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 47190) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1452:16) The Babylonish baptist, or, H.G. contradicting H.G. in his book stiled Light from the Son of righteousness, which is proved, meer confusion and darkness. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 7 p. s.n., [London : 1672] Caption title. Dated and signed at end: London, the 27th of the 9th moneth, 1672 ... G.W. Attributed to Whitehead by Wing and NUC pre-1956 imprints. Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Grigg, Henry. -- Light from the son of righteousness. Inner Light. Society of Friends -- Doctrines. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Babylonish Baptist. OR H.G. Contradicting H.G. In his Book stiled , LIGHT from the Son of Righteousness ; which is proved , meer Confusion and Darkness . Unprejudiced Reader , WE have a Witness in Heaven , That we have Love to the Souls of all Men ; and bear no Ill-Will to these Baptists : Howbeit , the Implacable Enmity of divers of them is such ; that in Times of Quietness , it hath been the manner of some of their Chieftains , to be Quarrelling , and spreading their Confused Pamphlets against us , and the Light Within confessed by us ; as being Offended and Fretted at our present Liberty , which we have Publickly to Confess the True Light ; though obtain'd through Deep Sufferings : Howbeit , the Fruitlesness of Coertion hath not been manifested by these Men's Valour , or Pretended Faithfulness in Suffering Times . We see , the more they Strive , the more they involve themselves in Babylonish Confusions and Self-Contradiction , to the Overthrow of their Cause , and their own Discredit therein . Some of the Baptists Doctrines and Contradictions , Collected out of their H. G's Book in their own words , and briefly Observ'd as follows . H. G. saith , viz. I utterly deny , that this Light , which all men have from the Glorious Creator , is a Saving Light , page 8. H. G. in Contradiction saith , I really believe , That the Lord Jesus , as the Eternal Word , hath given Light , or Enlightened all Men and Women that come into the World , p. 8. Animadversion , The Light or Life of the Eternal Word , which is the Light of Men , John 1. 4. is Spiritual and Divine , as is that Word ; and therefore Saving to all that truly Obey it . H. G. The great Darkness of these Men , who cry up Light and Power Within , this Wile of Satan , and Cheat of Antichrist , p. 31. H. G. Contra. The Lord Jesus , as the Eternal Word , Enlighteneth all men . This Light is the Substance of the Law — The Candle of the Lord : It doth Convince of Sin , p. 9. If Heathens follow it , they would shine in Just Living . The Work of Faith with Power — I do maintain , that Faith is required and must be wrought with Power in the Hearts , p. 15 , 16. Anim. What Horrible Blasphemy is it then , to term our crying up the Light and Power of Christ Within , the Wile of Satan , and Cheat of Antichrist ? And how plainly hereby Confuted ? We have Cause to look upon those Heathens , that follow the Light or Gift of God Within , to be More Godly and Better Christians , then many of these Baptists . H. G. observes from John 16. 7. That the Spirit or Blessed Comforter cannot be the Saviour , p. 46. H. G. Contrad . Till the coming of his Spirit and Grace with Power in my Heart , for the Binding of the Strong Man Satan , and Killing of my Corruptions , my Soul was not brought out of the Horrible Pit , p. 16. Having wrought this Glorious Work of Regeneration , p. 17. Anim. Then it s the Spirit and Power of Christ , that effects and works Salvation through the Work of Regeneration , see Tit. 3. 5. which is not done meerly by Christ's outward Sufferings ; though we cannot believe , that Satan is bound in this man , while he is in Satans work , Blaspheming Christ's Light Within , and Belying us . H. G. The Ordinance of the Lord's-Supper you call Bread and Wine , p. 19. H. G. Contrad . The Sign — The Shaddow ( speaking of their Ordinances ) the Substance being Christ , p. 53 , 54. Anim. Your pretended Lord's-Supper then , is no more then Bread and Wine , the Sign , the Shaddow ; and therefore their Continuation of no Necessity in the true Church , which hath received Christ the Substance , the Living Bread , who Spiritually communicates his Flesh and Blood , or Fruit of the Heavenly Vine , without your Shaddows ; And this is our Lord's Supper , that we partake of ; and our Baptism is Spiritual , 1. Cor. 12. 13. Eph. 4. 5. and as in 1 Pet. 3. 21. its said ; to the which also the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Antitype , that now saveth us , even Baptism , agreeth . H. G. The End of this Ordinance doth remain , notwithstanding the Pourings forth of the Spirit ; and therefore the Ordinance must needs remain ; which is to Confirm our Faith in the true Saviour , and to keep up our Love to him , p. 21. Answ , What Faith and Love are these of theirs , which are confirm'd and kept up by Bread and Wine ? And what Idolatry and Diversion from the Spirit doth their Doctrine tend to herein ? Surely the Holy Spirit can best supply the said End , see Gal. 5. 22. H. G. again is very Fierce and Rash for their Water-Baptism ( or Plunging Peoplee in Water ) where he saith , Whosoever brings any other Gospel , let him be Accurst , p. 24. Answ. Hereby he hath Curst all the People of God , and Sincere-Minded , both Protestants , and all others in the World , who Oppose , and come not under the Baptists Dipping or Plunging people in Water : Lord forgive him ; he is very Uncharitable herein . For our Parts , we cannot believe their Baptism to be either the Baptism of Christ , or Gospel , or of Necessity and Available to Salvation . H. G. denies the True Saviour to be the Light and Power ; I affirm ( saith he ) that Jesus Christ is a Man , consisting of Flesh and Bone , p. 30 , 31. Humane , p. 33. Finite , Weak , subject to Passion , as we are , p. 94. The Inward Power is not the Christ distinct from the Humane Nature ; the true Christ consisting of a Body of Flesh and Bone , p. 31 , 34. H. G. Contrad . John declared plainly , that Christ was before him , being from Everlasting — He was before Abraham was — The Son of God by Eternal Generation — Truly God — David's Lord , p. 35. The Lord Jesus ; The Eternal Word , p. 8. The Emanuel , p. 32. Christ is the Son of the Living God , p. 33. Anim. Therefore it s both Unscriptural and Absurd to assert , That Jesus Christ consisteth of a Humane Body of Flesh and Bone , or is Finite ( seeing he is before all things , and by him all things consist , Col. ● . 17. ) and inconsistent both with the Eternal Glory of the Son of God , which he had with the Father before the World began , wherein he is Glorified ; and his Body is Glorious and Spiritual : They should have said , That he took upon him that Body prepared for him ; and not , that he consists ( or is made up ) of a Humane Body of Flesh and Bone : but at length , they are made to grant the Deity of Christ , more then formerly ; though to their own Confutation , as before . H. G. The principle of the Quakers concerning the Light within ; the Impurity and Vileness of which Principle I may further make appear , p. 48. H. G. Contrad . The Word , considered as Creator , is the True Light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the World , pag. 48. Anim. It s no less then Blasphemy to charge this Principle ( to wit the Light of the Eternal Word , the Creator ) with Vileness and Impurity : For the Word , and its Light , is both Divine , Eternally Pure , and Unchangeably Incorruptible . H. G. God forbid that I should ever own their Principle of the Light in all , that doth so clearly tend to the razing out the grand Fundamentals of the Gospel , p. 52. H. G. Contrad . Praises and Halelujah to God forever , who hath given us that Witness in our selves , of which thou speakest , p. 54 , 55. which Witness ( his Sister spake of ) was the Light which Reproves for Sin , to own and believe in the Light , that enlighteneth every man that cometh into the World , p. 8. & 29. Anim. See what a Sad Pass these Men are grown to ; and what kind of Prayers they offer to God , against his own Light , or Witness within ; and how contrary to the Gospel-Spirit and Light they are . READER , IN their said Book , stiled , Light from the Son of Righteousness , there are also many more Absurdities , & Perversions of Scripture , with False Accusations against ut ; viz. of Denying the Man Christ , the Resurrection , and many other things , which I have more fully answer'd elsewhere . But for Expedition , this Paper was abstracted , to be sent into Barbadoes , where H. G's said Book is like to be Concern'd ; as on the Account of his own Natural Sister ( as he calls her ) whom Un-Naturally , and Un-Brotherly , he hath Printed his Book ( in part ) against , for her Wholsom Advice , in her Letter , to Own and Believe in the True Light , which Enlightens every Man , &c. I have writ a Full Answer unto their said Book , which as yet I forbear to divulge , being informed , that some of the particular Baptists are about to bring forth more against us ; which if they do , I hope further to Examine them ; not questioning but they 'l be , both Inconsistent , and Contradictory , as they use to be , whilst they Contend in their Prejudice and Envy , which Blinds them ; The Lord give them a Penitent Sence thereof . London , the 27th of the 9th Moneth , 1672. From a Well-wisher of all men , who desires to be at Peace with all , so far as it may consist with Truth . G. W. THE END . 
A65836	----	The apostate incendiary rebuked, and the people called Quakers vindicated from Romish hirarchy and imposition in a serious examination of VVilliam Mucklows Liberty of conscience asserted against imposition, but proved a liberty which is in Christ Jesus, and against unity and order in his church / by one whose rejoycing is the testimony of a good conscience toward God and man, G. Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1673 Approx. 60 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 14 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65836 Wing W1890 ESTC R39076 18209862 ocm 18209862 107144 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65836) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 107144) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1136:15) The apostate incendiary rebuked, and the people called Quakers vindicated from Romish hirarchy and imposition in a serious examination of VVilliam Mucklows Liberty of conscience asserted against imposition, but proved a liberty which is in Christ Jesus, and against unity and order in his church / by one whose rejoycing is the testimony of a good conscience toward God and man, G. Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 27 p. s.n.], [London : 1673. Place of publication suggested by Wing. Errata : p. 27. Reproduction of original in the Union Theological Seminary Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Mucklow, William, 1631-1713. -- Queries touching liberty of conscience. Society of Friends -- England -- Apologetic works. Dissenters, Religious -- England. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2005-01 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Apostate Incendiary REBUKED , And the People called Quakers vindicated from Romish Hirarchy and Imposition . IN A Serious Examination OF VVilliam Mucklows Liberty of Conscience asserted against Imposition ; But proved a Liberty of the Flesh , Self-Will , and Confusion , repugnant to the Liberty which is in Christ Jesus , and against Unity and Order in his CHURCH . By one whose Rejoycing is the Testimony of a good Conscience towards God and Man , G. Whitehead . Now I beseech you Brethren , mark them which cause Divisions and Offences , contrary to the Doctrine which ye have learned , and avoid them , Rom. 16. 17. They crucifie to themselves the Son of God afresh , and put him to open Shame , Heb. 6. 6. But if any Man seem to be contentious , we have no such CUSTOM , neither the Churches of God , 1 Cor. 11. 16. Printed in the Year , 1673. A SHORT EPISTLE To Friends who love the true Light , and desire Sion's Prosperity . Dear Friends , WHo have received and do retain the Love of the precious Truth ; it was for your Sakes and the Truth 's , that I was pressed in Spirit in a godly Zeal , thus to appear against this deceitful Worker and treacherous Spirit , which at length hath shewn it self in open Enmity against the Truth , and us the Church of Christ and elect People of God called Quakers ; otherwise we were unwilling these Controversies should have been brought into the World , being occasioned by some that have walked among us , who should have been reclaimed by the Strivings of God's holy Spirit with them , and the Churches Admonition therein to them , but they had kickt against the Lord , and spurned at his People , hating to be reformed , and therefore open Rebuke is just upon such treacherous Betrayers and deceitful Workers ; one of whom this W. M. hath shewn himself to be , even an Engine of Sathan and Member of Anti-christ , not only in his being an Informer of Truth 's Adversaries against us , but also in publishing and delivering ( near our Meeting Door to the People ) his malitious , lying and confused Papers , striking at Elders and ancient Friends among us in this City of London ; whereby he hath gratified Scorners , and afforded a Theam and Text to that insolent Scoffer , and irreligious Agent of Hypocrites Fra. Chadwel , that old disturber of our Assemblies , who frequently abuseth the Name of Christ , and whom the Truth , hath often confounded and discovered his Wickedness and Lyes : * This is the Fruit of W. M. his Work to animate Scornes and Blaphemers ; the Lord will reward him and all such perfidious Apostates who crucifie to themselves the Lord of Life afresh , and put him to open Shame ; who most unworthily have eaten and drunk among , and been convinced of the Power and Presence of the Lord being with us in our Assemblies , and that thereby he hath chosen us to be his People and Church ; but they went out from us , because they were not of us , and now are become open Enemies in their self-Separation , Conceit and whimsical Motions , opposing the Power of God in his People , rendring his Church fallible , subject to err , and under an Apostacy , and setting up themselves as the infallible Judges over the Church , even over the antient Friends and Elders , who have kept their Integrity to the Lord , and such as therein are grown in that divine Understanding , Wisdom and Power ( as many are among us ) wherein all the Apostates and Anti-christs in the World cannot come near nor touch them , blessed be the Lord for ever : And as for our confessing , that we are the Church of the first-born , let our Doctrine , Testimony , Lives and Sufferings bear witness ; and God's Power which is with us , and his Witness in Men's Consciences be our Proof beyond all that can be spoken , being therein manifest in men's Consciences ( that are tender ) in the Sight of God , having such a Place in the truly tender Consciences , that we need not impose upon them , as it was never our Principle to force , or drive them , or impose , or infringe upon their real Liberty , which is in the Gospel and Power of God , out of which there is no true Liberty ; but for the feared and hardned Consciences of Apostates , Judasses and deceitful Workers ( whose hypocritical Conformity is not at all desirable to us ) we leave them to the Judgments of God to awaken , who in his Day will further discover them , and kindle a Fire in them that will burn to the lowest Hell , and be to their incessant Torment and Anguish , if they seek not a place of Repentance before it be too late ; therefore dear Friends , be ye diligent , and watchful in the true Light to retain the Love of the Truth unto the End , and beware of deceitful Workers and Sowers of Discord ; for they are Abomination to the Lord : And mark them that make Division , and cause Offences contrary to the Gospel ; for they serve not the Lord Jesus Christ nor his People , but their own Bellies , the Flesh and Self-Will . Your Faithful Friend and Servant in the Lords Work , G. W. London 30th . 11th . Month , 1673 , A Serious Examination OF William Mucklow's Liberty , &c. To his Title [ Liberty of Conscience asserted against Imposition , proposed in several Queries . ] THe first part makes a great Shew , and proclaims him an eminent Asserter of a conscientious Liberty against some great Infringement and Bondage ; but he varies in his very next Words [ proposed in several Queries ] as if he could not write consistant Matter ; for this contadicts his great Pretence before , and discredits it to those that understand the Difference between asserting Liberty and proposing Queries , which are about the Imposition as well as Liberty : However we will take the Substance of them ( insinuating Aspersions upon us ) as positive as his Title ; but the ground of his Queries and Charge implyed throughout them against those of the People called Quakers , is as false as is his Work inconsistent ; and in order to make it so appear , Let us inquire , First , What this Imposition is in his Sence that he pretends to oppose ? 2ly , Who those of the Pople called Quakers that have assumed to impose , contratry to their former Testimonies , as he saith ? 3ly , What this Liberty of Conscience is in the Exercise of it that he pretends to assert First , To the first , This Imposition in his Sence , and an inforcing Uniformity and Unity in outward Ceremonies and Gestures , yea , and that upon Persons before they found Convictions in themselves , thereby retaining and letting in the complying Hypocrite that should be cast out . 2ly , Those of the People called Quakers thus charged , and some Persons counted famous and renowned in the Congregation at the City of London , Ancient Heads , Elders in God , &c. that have reduced the People under this Yoak of Bondage . 3ly , The Liberty of his Conscience is to keep on his Hat in the time of publick Prayer to God in our Assemblies , when owned by him ( an unreverent Posture and causless Sign , as among Beleivers * contrary to that Order and Custom in the Churches of Christ , w ch was at first brought forth and setled among us by his Power and in the Unity of the Spirit , and not by any Man's Imposition whatsoever ; and therefore the Foundation of this Man's Work against us is both groundless , and he hath stated the matter very falsly and disingenuously ; for in the same Spirit and Power of Christ we have endeavoured to remove Joh. Perrot's Imposition ( who was the great Examplar ) of disorderly keeping on the Hat in time of publick Payer among us , as they may remember , he first gave the Occasion and Offence to the Church of Christ , by severely imposing it , and judging our innocent Practice ( of putting of our Hat in publick Prayer ) to be Accursed , Idolatrous , a Romish Tradition , and to be repented of , as his Soul had done , &c. Whereby ( together with his Example ) some were seduced into a Party and Prejudice ; this in the Name and Power of our Lord Jesus Christ we witnessed against , and that imposing exalted Spirit , as repugnant to that Unity and good Order , which in the beginning the Lord led us freely into , upon which J. P. the Imposer , being frustrated of his singular Rule and Sect-Mastership , did grant a Relaxation , leaving all to the free Spirit of God in keeping on or putting off the Hat in Prayer , contrary to his judging the latrer Idolatry , Accursed , &c , But afterward his pretended Liberty of Conscience extended to this that he might do that to day in Truth and Righteousness , which to morrow he might be ashamed of , or be denyed in by the same Spirit [ Sordid Ranterism and Blasphemy ] and after he went into Jamaica he could get into worldy pomp and preferment , put of his Hat to Men , and ( in officiating the place of a Clark ) most strictly tender Men Oathes , &c. insomuch that some that had admired him , then were ashamed of him and his Ranterism ; and some of them who for a time were drawn aside and darkned , who were of the more honest and conscientious , after some Labour of Love used ( with them to convince them ) came to a Sence of the Power of God , which rent the Vail , and broke their Hearts , brought them to judge that dividing Spirit , and reduced them back to their first Love and primitive Order ; therefore his Charge of inforcing Uniformity and Unity in outward Gestures upon Men before Conviction , and so far retaining and letting in the complying Hypocrite ( which he flings upon those that are accounted renowned Elders among us in the City of London ) Is all of it utterly false , and also contains a slanderous Aspertion against those that are let in and owned among us , as being complying Hypocrites , which he cannot prove , nor instance any of them that hath thus hypocritically complyed before Conviction , nor that we have Unity with such ; I doubt not but many can with good Conscience testifie against him in this Matter ; and he might have given a more honest Account if his Conscience were rightly exercized ; for hath not he himself been sought in Love and Tenderness both by perswasive Means for his Conviction with Patience and long-Suffering ( by Friends that wished him well ) to reduce him out of that Spirit of Prejudice and Opposition ( which would cover it self with the Hat ) that he might have come into the Unity of the Spirit and Society of the Lord's People ? But he hath rejected Counsel , and persisted in Hardness and Wilfulness , crucified and slain the just one in himself , and become an open Enemy , having entred into Judas's Way , both to the Grief of God's Spirit and People , with whom we include his tender Wife or Mother , or those Relations , whose Respect to the Truth and People of God might have some Influence upon him , if he were not a surly , wilful and conceited Man ; yet his great Pretence is for Liberty of Conscience , but what a tender Conscience he hath we may casily judge from what follows . First , In his Query , viz. Whether it hath not been experienced how difficult it is to root out such , when once they have reduced a People to this Belief , and they in the Exercise of this Authority , because the Honour of being invested in such a Capacity , doth obliege Men to secure themselves in this superior Orbe , and stirs up Men of Parts and Ambition to support such an Hirarchy , in Expectation that it will at last fall unto themselves . 2dly , By his insinuating against us in Print , as supporting such an Hirarchy , as usurps the Place of the Head , breaks in sunder the Unity of the Body , sets up another Head besides Christ , with Romish Positions , such kind of Apellations , Principles and Pretences , as the Church of Rome did obtain her unlimitted Power by . How now William , Is this thy tender Conscience , Moderation , Love and Charity professed towards the People of God called Quakers ? O envious Man , and peevish Incendiary , who art thus reviling and slandering them in the Sight of the Sun ; do not these thy invective Insinuations savour of the Malice of Satan in the height ? Tending to stir up Persecution to destroy and root us out ( if the Lord were not a Wall about us ) and to beget that Jealousie in the Powers against us that 's more cruel then Death ; and even at this Juncture when the Stream appears against the Papists and Rome's Hirarchy ? Let the Lord and all that fear him , or are charitable , judge concerning thy Conscience and Charity towards us in these inveterate Suggestions ; who yet knowest in thy Conscience that we deny the Pope and Rome's Hirarchy . But though the Romish Hirarchy , usurping the Place of the Head , enforcing Men to an Uniformity before Conviction , making them Hypocrites , Arbritary Rule or Judicature , excommunicating Persons meerly for their tender Consciences , be all utterly denyed and detested by us : Yet in the true Church , which Christ was ( and still is ) the Foundation and Head of ▪ God was known to be the God of Order and not of Confusion , and he afforded Helps and Governments in the Church , which could be no such Usurpation or Arbritaries as this Man falsly insinuates against the ancient Friends and Elders amongst us : There were Elders that did rule well , Overseers made by the Holy Ghost , and they had Power from God therein , to set divers things in order , and not only to exhort , perswade and admonish Persons among them , but also to reprove , rebuke and ( in the Name and Authority of Christ ) to command , charge , enjoyn ( and in that Sence ) to impose among themselves matters or things telating to Society and good Order in the Church ( as we know no religious Society but hath a Care of its Preservation ) as in the Wisdom of God they saw Cause ; the Churches of Christ had also Power and Authority in his Name to reject , withdraw from , exclude out of their Communion obstinate and disordily Walkers among them , and all this before Rome's usurped Hirarchy : See Mat. 18. Ch. 17. ver . 18. 1 Cor. 12. 28. Ch. 11. ver . 34. Ch. 5. 4 , 5 , 2. 2 Thes. 2 ▪ 15. Ch. 3. 6. ver . 14. Tit. 1. 5. Rom. 16. 17. 1 Tim. 1. 19 , 20. Phil. 4. 8 , 9. 1 Cor. 14. 37. Ch. 4. 17 , 19. with many more . Now let us consider W. M's tender Conscience as to the Lord his further Manifestation , &c. for his wearing his Hat in time of publick Prayer , where he tells us , that we greatly err who say , the keeping on the Hat is a Practice introduced , unless we can prove it is done upon a religious Account , when as in Truth it is only a Custom left which they formerly practized ; this agrees with what they say in their Spirit of the Ha , p. 24. That they keep it neither off nor on upon a religious Account : Then this bespeaks their meer Indifferency in the Case , if not upon a religious Account ; there is no such tender Conscience nor farther Manifestation in the matter on their parts ; wherefore their Pretence of both is a meer Dissimulation and Cheat ; and if then this Man's Conscience were not asleep , or much hardned , he might see it is in his Wilfulness and Opposition , that he hath persisted in such a reproved and offensive Gesture , as he hath neither the Exercise of Conscience nor Religion in : See what his asserting Liberty of Conscience amounts to ; he should have rather entituled his Paper [ Liberty of self-Will and a perverse Spirit asserted against the Unity and Order of the Church of Christ and People of God called Quakers ] And how do we err in saying , their irreverend Posture is introduced , when it was both brought in and imposed long after they accustomed the contrary in the Church ? But his main Allegation is , He wants ( or finds not ) the Lord's Requiring for the Practice of him . How should he know his Requiring , for that which he is prejudicially engaged against ? And in such a hardned wilful State ( that feels not the living Union ) wherein he hath resisted the holy Spirit in his People , and quencht it in himself ? and how should such a one that despises the Church of Christ , and reviles the Lord's People ( in that State ) joyn with them either in the Unity or Order of Life ? This Man therefore playes the hardned Hypocrite and Dissembler , while he seems to complain of being excluded out of our Communion , when he desires it not with us , having excluded himself , and odified us as grosly as he can to the World. His Complaint of Excommunication , denying him , and others , the Benefit of Marriage and Burial , having a Propriety therein , only for the Omittance of keeping of the Hat in time of Prayer , is neither fully nor truly stated ; for first , we do not deny them Marriage in it self , but among us , and as being out of Unity and Charity with us ( which is more then only for the said Omission ) we may not in Conscience be their Witnesses . 2dly , Denyal of him Burial , He hath not Cause to cast that upon us without Distinction . 3dly , Yet our Friends have Reason to take Care whom they admit Burial among us , to prevent Reproach , as much as in them lies . His saying , They give that Meeting this Appellation , THE BODY , is not true , but also falsly & scornfully given in the Spirit of the Hat , to the Meeting in Devon-shire-House ; for the Lody is but one , and hath many Members ; so also is Christ , which is not made up of one particular Meeting , but of the universal Church of Christ , or general Assembly of the first-born ; and the Tryal of Motions and Unity is by that Life and Spirit which searches all things , and whereby the spiritual Man judgeth all things , and not by a few that seek Preheminence , nor do such sway over us or our Body , as he falsly insinuates , who himself is one of the same Spirit . Many are filled with Prayer and Praises to the Lord in silent Meettings , who notwithstanding sometimes requires some outward Expressions thereof , both in Words and Gestures , and that in deep Humility of Soul , with unvailed Spirits and Heads too , which for this Man to oppose and shew a publick Sign against , is no token of Humility , but of Hardness and self-Exaltation . As for what Gestures we may use in our private Devotion and Prayer , whether walking by the Way , or on our Beds ; it follows not that we must needs be in the same posture in publick Prayer in Meetings , any more then we are to follow our usual Labours or Vocations in our publick Meetings ; and we are not accountable to Apostates of the manner of our private Devotion : What we do is singly to the Lord without Respect to Spectators ( none being present ) but in our Assemblies , he who is the God of Order and not of Confusion , hath called us to express or shew forth Reverence and Order , for the Sake of others , and to do all things to Edification ; and God's Power & Presence we feel with us in what we do ; but one while this Man is heaping Questions against our Practice , another while his Complaint is only about imposing Postures upon our Fellow-Members , which is false ; for they give us no such Occasion , nor hath he approved himself as our Fellow-Member , who hath slighted our Testimony and Exhortation , and refused to hear the Church , being one of them that went out from us , for that they were not of us ; for had they been of us , they would have continued with us . To his Query , Whether the Head mentioned in Cor. 11. may not be covered with a Hat off , and uncovered with a Hat on ? Answ. The Head Christ ( whom he means ) may ; but this Man hath nor rightly considered the Apostle's Words in restraining them only to that Sence of the Head , when they also relate to an outward Order or different Postures of Men and Women ; see ver . 5 , 6 , 7 , 13. which argue that the Women would be uncovered then , which was not comely in them as in the Men ; and the men's being uncovered appears to be in Opposition to the Jews Vails and Coverings under the Law ; as for the Head Christ , he ought not to be covered in the Women any more then in the Men. Que. Have not some kneeled , sat , and stood in publick ▪ &c. Whether a Cap is not as real a Covering to the Head as a Hat ? Answ. No , that it is not ; but these Questions are to excuse himself , and recriminate our Friends ; he states not the Ground of the Difference , which lies chiefly in that Spirit of Division and Opposition in himself and some others , which should it seek to make Discord and Parties , either about kneeling , Cap on , or Cap off in Prayer ; the Life and Power of God in the Church would rise up in Judgment against it and the Discord-Makers ; he triffles touching wearing a Cap , standing or sitting ; for God allows a Conveniency , and what is expedient for the Necessity of the weak , and aged , and feeble in Body , who are not in Prejudice or Opposition in what they do ; yet however , where the substantial part of true Worship is known ▪ which is in Spirit and Truth , with a naked , bowed and broken Heart before the Lord ; there will be no Straitness nor Scruple to express it with uncovered Head and bended Knees as to the Lord , which was practiced among the Saints of old ; but the Liberty we have in Christ touching these lesser matters , we are not bound to give a particular Account of to an Apostate , who with an evil Eye hath sought to spy it out , and with a prejudiced Mind heaps a Multitude of Queries to us ; but for no serious or good End to be sure , having slandered and traduced us as Usurpers , Imposors , self-Seekers Romish , and what not ? However God and our own Consciences bear us Witnesses , that we would not use or strain our Liberty to give either Offence or Occasion of stumbling to our weak Brethren , as false Brethren give by their fleshly Liberty of Self-Will , wherein this Man cannot excuse himself by his pleading the Apostles for bidding to judge one another in Meats , or Drinks or Dayes ; so he was so tender of offending his weak Brother about Meat , thar he would rather forbear eating Flesh , which may condemn thit man's Hardness , who would not so much as forbear his Hat a littls space in Prayer to shun such an Occasion ; so little Regard hath hee either to his weak Brethren , or to the Church for their Sake ; howbeit , when abstaining from Meats came to be imposed , the Apostle opposed it as a Doctrine of Devils , which is to our Purpose of opposing John Perrot's Imposition about the Hat. Que. Why not in prophesying ( he meanes ) keep off the Hat. This Query is because men's praying or prophesying with the head covered is forbidden ; wherein he seems to tell us , we fail in the latter , which , if it were so , is no ground to oppose us in the former , or to gain-say that part of Obedience that appears : But he is mistaken in taking the whole Course of preaching to be that Prophecying intended , that is brought in with Praying ; for all preaching cannot be that intire or peculiar Prophecying , which where any one is immediately called to ; I grant , that its most comely to stand up with the Hat of ; besides there is a difference between praying to God and preaching to Men : I could say more to this Matter , but the Man is unworthy ; also I am informed W. Penn did privately answer him to the Substance of his Queries , which he takes no notice of as an Answer , which he might have published with his Queries ; but that he is willing to heap upon us , and reitterate a Multitude of triffling Questions , as if he would not regard any serious Answer ; and most unjustly and peevishly reflects , like some angry Anabaptist , in saying , When you can pretend Scriptures , prove your Practices , then they shall be your Rule and Touch-Stone ; but when you are out of their Practices and Commands , then the Spirit and not the Scriptures is your Rule : Whereas we have alwayes preferred the Spirit of Truth as our Rule and Touch-Stone , and to produce the Scripture to prove our Practice ( is not to make them our Rule and Touch-Stone instead of the Spirit ) which therefore shews our Belief and Esteem of the Scriptures in their place . Oh envious and confused Man ! How dishonestly and perversly hast thou stated the Controversie ; our citing that , 1 Cor. Ch. 11. was not the Ground , Touch-Stone and Rule of our Practice ; for the Spirit of Life which moves us to pray , singly brought us into it in the beginning without any such outward Consideration , but it was truely cited to prove that our reverent Order and Practice in Prayer was not a Romish Tradition , brought forth in the Apostacy and Curse , as J. P. and some of his Disciples falsly charged this our Order and Custom in the Church of Christ , after they themselves had been some time therein with us . His alledging , different Measures , Growths , Motions , further Manifestation , Addition , and how ab●ndantly different Gestures will contend the Unity of true faith ; for his contradictory and offensive Behaviour in time of publick Prayer these are but false Covers , and savor of meer Ranterism in the bottom , like the Ranters , VARIETY IN UNITY , AND UNITY IN VARIETY for their fleshly Liberty , wherein they contemptuously have stood staring at us with their Hats on in time of publick Prayer , whose Spirits we Judged in the beginning ; whereas different Measures , Growths or further Manifestations , in the true Church ( which must relate to one and the same Light and Truth ) do neither change the Property of the thing , nor make it another Dispensation ; nor can they cause Contradiction , Opposition or Division in one Member against another , as is between this Appostatized Ranting Spirit ( that Quarels about the Hat ) and the Spirit of the true Church , which acts in Unity , Peace and good Order . His pretence of a further Manifestation , Growth or Addition , for that his irreverent Custom which is not upheld by him upon a Religious Account , is a manifest and gross Contradiction ; and his further Manifestation , Growth and Addition , pretended , must be beyond us all , and above the whole Church ( if we will believe him ) for therein he assumes an Authority to judge and revile both Elders and Ancient Friends , and infamously to notifie particular persons to the World , as he pleaseth , and to set a Mark upon them : and all this without either dealing with them as Christ injoyned , Mat. 18. 16 , 17. or having the least Consent of the Church , which he hath owned among us ; and indeed contrary to all Gospel and Christian order in the Church . Thus while he is accusing ancient Friends , with Usurping a Head-Ship , setting up a Romish Hirarthy ; he himself is acting the part of an usurping Pope , proud Prelate , and exalted Diotrophes , that loved Preheminence , and yet would make the World believe , that he is a man of a very tender conscience , and great Humility ; but this is as real as his Brother John Penyman entituling himself , One of the least of thousands in Israel , or the Popes being a Servant of Servants . Howbeit his great Capital and Charge is , That we assert those Romish Positions , which having enslaved Nations , and destroyed thousands , and is of a most dangerous unutterable Consequence [ Mark , Reader , by the way how he acts the part of a most malitious Incendiary what more envious an Instigation to Persecution could he have brought forth at this Juncture against us ? Oh Treacherous Apostate , Judas the Lord Rebuke thee ] But what are those Romish positions ? They are namely , 1st , That we are to believe as the Church believes : 2dly , That the Church cannot err : 3dly , That she hath Power to bind and to loose : 4thly , That it is abominable Pride not to submit to her Judgment , she having alwayes the infallible Spirit , &c. However to his own Confutation , he seems herein to clear us from setting up an usurped Hirarchy of some that seek Preheminence over the Body , & limitting the Power to persons ( as he falsly suggests ) for here the Power is attributed to the Church in general , yet in these Positions he deals very unfairly ; for to believe as the Church believes , &c. May be taken , as if we use to preach those bare positions as our great Arguments to enforce People into our Faith ; which we never did ; but commend our selves to every man's Conscience in the Sight of God , and therein are we manifested ; yet that I may loose nothing of Truth 's Testimony . To the first I affirm , That the true Church is in the true Faith that is in God , and we must either believe thus as the true Church believes , or else it were but both a Folly and Hypocrisie to profess our selves Members thereof ; this man hath treacherously betrayed both his own Conscience and Testimony , who while he would seem to own the Church of Christ , as a Member of her ; yet tells the World , It is a most dangerous Position that we are to believe as the Church believes , Oh , Treacherous Enemy to the Church of Christ. 2dly , Is it so dangerous , that this Church ( or universal Body of Christ ) cannot err ? Whenas the Church signifies the Elect , and Christ implies an Impossibility that the very Elect should be deceived , Mat. 24. 24 Or that the Gates of Hell should prevail against his Church , and promiseth his Presence to the End of the World : Were it either reasonable or just to conclude , the whole Body or Church of Christ is liable to err , because some particular Members may ? Observe the Darkness and perverse Spirit of this Apostate and Accuser of ( not only the Brethren , but ) the whole Church ; for he states not this Charge against a false Application made of the said Positions by the Church of Rome , but against the Positions themselves , as being destructive and dangerous , and as asserted concerning the Church , not this nor that particular Church , Congregation or Assembly , but it s the Church his Quarrel lies against . 3dly , He is even also against the Church having Power to bind and to loose , though this was a certain Priviledge given of Christ Jesus unto the Church ( who in him received a living Sence of both Judgment and Mercy ) even to bind and to loose , by the Power of the holy Ghost given unto her , see Mat. 18. 18 Joh. 20 , 22 , 23. If it must needs be accounted dangerous to assert this ? then it s dangerous to confess the power of Christ that is in the true Church the man hath greatly wronged and out faced his own Conscience . 4thly , If he will not hear the Church let him be to thee as a Heathen man , &c. what is it but abominable Pride for any one ( especially that professeth himself a Member of the true Church ) to Refuse to hear her , or submit to her judgment ? when demonstrated ? for she must needs have both the infallible Spirit and true Judgment ; if every living Member pertake thereof , he that hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of his ; and God is come in ten Thousand of his Saints to judge the Ungodly , and the Saints shall judge the World ; and doth not W. M. profess the Spirit of Christ , that he hath it ? Yet tells the Word , It is a Romish Position , destructive and dangerous to assert , that the Church hath alwayes the infallible Spirit ( that is the Spirit of Christ ) but did not Christ promise the holy Spirit the Comforter to his Church , saying , He shall abide with you forever ; and is not this infallible , and the Church's Judgment therefore of Value ? Oh how sadly hath this Opposer violated his own Conscience , perverted the right Wayes of God , and abused the pretious Testimony of Truth ? And seeing his Charge is so high against us for asserting those four Positions afore-said on the behalf of the Church ; and that they are both Romish , Destructive and of a most dangerous Consequence ; it naturally follows that he deems it not dangerous nor destructive for him to assert the contrary , namely , 1. That we are not to believe as the Church believes ( but rather as W. Mucklow and his Brother J. Pennyman believe ) seeing that they have assumed a Jurisdiction over the Church , and a Power to judge her . 2. That the Church can err , is fallible , or is liable to be deceived and apostatize ( as he questions us . ) 3. That she hath no such Power as to bind and to loose : [ Wherein he sets his Judgment above Christ's , in Opposition to his express Promise to his Church . ] 4. That the Church hath not alwayes the infallible Spirit ( which is Christ's ) and therefore it is no Pride , but great Humility in W. M. and J. P. ( as being the lowly Ones ) not to submit to the Church in matter of Judgment : So that at this Rate they will claim a Superiority and Preheminence above the Church ( which heretofore they have owned , and confessed to the Power of God in her ) as if this had the Infallible Spirit , when the Church wants it ; if this be not a Head-ship and Usurpation , a degree higher then the Pope himself pretends to , let all intelligent Readers judge ; is so be the Pope pretends to an Infallibility , not as in a Separation from the Church , but as professing Unity with her still , though he be really Anti-christian in his usurping the Headship , that he doth ; and so are these Men , who like evil Spies have brought Evil Reports upon the good Land , and despise the Church of God , even his People ( called Quakers ) contrary to their first Love , Testimony and Conviction . As for W. M. his Addition to his Queries it contains both apparent Untruths , Folly and Confusion against the Church of Christ , implying the Churches Apostacy , Declension or Fall from what was testifyed in the beginning among us , which is as good Doctrine as to tell us , that Christ's Spouse , Bride or the Lamb's Wife is become an Adulteress ; where then is the Church's Security or Care taken over her by the Head ? But this Man himself is fallen , and not the Church nor Ministry in it , though most grosly slandered in the Spirit of the Hat , which J. P. pretended in publick he would prove ; but instead thereof exhibited divers Articles against particular Persons , to prove , that our Preachers and Leaders are not so infallible as they pr●tend to be , which was much besides and short of the slanderous Charge given in the Spirit of the Hat , p. 43. But how infallible they ever pretended themselves to be , he told not , he was not so ingenuous ; did we ever preach up meerly our selves as Infallible , or pretend Infallibility any otherwise then as instructed by the Spirit of Christ , which is Infallible ? Or did we ever place it upon human Understanding , as meer Men , but upon that divine Understanding that God giveth ? But these Apostates judge others from their own Darkness , and evil Thoughts , and therein render the Body as divided from the Head , and rent to peices within it self , which is that the Devil ( the old Divider ) hath sought , and now sets his Agents on Work to make the World believe a Lye , viz. That he hath made such Division in the Church , as where W. M. saith , In the Beginning , Christ within us was then to be Head , but now the Body without us . A manifest Slander against the Body of Christ ; never such a Doctrine was preached or owned among us , That now the Body without us is to be the Head , and not Christ ( as implyed ) and yet he grants , Christ to be the Head of the Body ; and is not that Body the Church which he hath owned ? See what Contradiction Envy leads this Man into , who also saith , That the Chuch was then to be in Subjection to her Head , and every Member governed and exercized according to the Order of the Head ; but now the Body , the Church claims Authority over their Fellow-Members , as peculiarly having the infallible Spirit , &c. These latter Words from [ BUT ] contain two false and Unjust Reflections upon the Church ; for , First , the Body or Church claims no such Authority over their Fellow-Members ; it is gross Confusion in him for to affirm it ; for all Fellow-Members thereof are included in the same Body in Subjection to one and the same Head , which is Christ. 2. None of the Fellow-Members of the Body of Christ , are excluded from having the infallible Spirit in some degree , as if it were peculiar only to some few , whenas its universal throughout the whole Body ; though there be diversities of Gifts given , as the Lord sees meet , to every Man his proper and peculiar Gift , which all tends to Unity and Edification of the whole Body : But this Man seems to claim a Member-ship in the Church or Body ( as he calls us ) and yet judges and reviles the Church ; what then would he be a Member of ; Is it of such a Body that he represents , as torn to peices , and rent from the Head , or fallen under Apostacy ; for we cannot look upon the Church to be made up of himself and John Pennyman , or a few of their Spirit ; and that were also contrary to J. P's writing himself , One of the least of the Thousands in Israel ; but whether he had such low Thoughts of himself or not ; let God's Witness and his People ( who have beheld his Deportment and Luceferian Spirit ) judge . W. M. saith , Friends , That which was declared of , and testified unto in the beginning was , to direct our Minds unto the Heavenly Gift ( not to the Church ) but to the Manifestation of the Spirit in the particular waiting there to feel its Motions , and to hear its Voice , which would infallibly teach us our Duty towards God , our Neighbour and our selves ; and not to go forth into Reasonings to promote comely Orders after the Manner of men , nor to be found in the Exercise of any thing in his pure Worship , but what the Lord , not the Body required , else to stand still , &c. Herein he hath intermixt his perverse Parenthesis , falsly charging us in divers Respects , as if the Heavenly Gift and the Church were now separate ; and what the Lord and his People require in Oppositior ▪ or as if we were promoting a Body without the Spirit , or Subjection to what the Lord requires , as if our Testimony were now so much varied from what it was in the Beginning ; these are all most falsly suggested , his saying , It was to direct our minds to the Heavenly Gift , not to the Church , to what the Lord , not the Body required : See what Division this would make between the Lord , and his People ; but he mistakes [ Not to the Church ] for our Testimony was in the beginning and still is , to promote the Unity of the Spirit in our directing the Minds to the Spirit , and to them that love the Lord , to dwell in Love and Unity , which all come unto who come unto the Heavenly Gift , and to follow the Lord's Requirings therein , which is unerring ; and what is this but to preach up a true Church-State , which hath been the real Intent and Tendency of our Testimony from the Beginning ? And had this Man been faithful to what was testfied in the Beginning ( as he pretends a great Esteem thereof ) the Unity and Society of the Church and People of God called Quakers would have been of more value with him , then now so enviously and confusedly to quarrel with them , or any comely Order or reverent Custom in the Church , as he doth , which he did not in the Beginning ; for when his Mind was directed to the Manifestation of the Spirit , which would infallibly teach us our Duty towards God , our Neighbour and our selves ( as he saith ) then he ( and the rest concerned ) in the Beginning did not irreverently sit with their Hats on in publick Prayer among us , nor say that the contrary among us was a going forth into Reasonings to promote comely Orders after the manner of Men ; for what needed that , when the infallible Spirit , which was then owned to be their Teacher , freely led them into it ? Nor did the Apostle so go out into reasoning , when he exhorted the Saints to think on whatsoever things were true , honest , just , pure , lovely , of good Report , &c. But this Man is offended at our vindicating that Order which was made both lovely and comely ( by that Spirit that set it up ) since he is gone out from that infallible Spirit which he was directed to in the Beginning , which then moved and led them into both Reverence to God , Respect to his People , and how to behave themselves in the Church of Christ , both in Decency and in Order . Note that W. M. in so plainly professing , and ( in Words ) owning the Truth 's Testimony and Infallibility of the Spirits Teaching , as it was in the Beginning testified to among us , he hath therein said more for the comely Order that then was brought forth in our Assemblies , and for the Church having the infallible Spirit to know Truth from Error and the right from the wrong Spirit , then ever he can say or produce for the contrary , viz. for his keeping on his Hat in Prayer , for his accusing the Church with Fallibility , Apostacy , or the Antient Friends with Imposing , Usurping , &c. Out of his own Mouth he is condemned , as one apostatized from the Heavenly Gift , from his first Love , Convincement and Order , and hath wilfully excluded himself from the Union and Society of the Church of Christ. He still boggles and seems offended at the Body , the Church , having the infallible Spirit , the certain unerring Judgment reciding with them upon all Occasions to know Truth from Error and the right from the wrong Spirit ; will you limit the Lord ? saith he . Answ. Is it a limitting the Lord for the Body or Church of Christ to have his Spirit which is infallible ? and an unerring Judgment so far as we received from the same Spirit ? What gross Darkness is come over this Man ? Doth not the spiritual Man judge all Things ? And the Saints shall judge the World ; and dare he say that the Spirit of Christ hath not taught the Church Truth from Error , nor to know the right from the wrong Spirit ? Whenas the Principle we direct unto , and our Testimony concerning it , he dares not say is fallible ; but seems to justifie our Testimony as it was in the Beginning , and in Words to own Inward Motions , Voice and Teachings of the infallible Spirit , and the measure thereof within to try the Verity of our Doctrine : And why should it be rendred a limitting of the Lord for the Church to claim this Priviledge , as thus , having the unerring Spirit ? And that we have it to guide and give discovery in the weighty matters of Faith and Salvation , and to try Spirits , whether they be of God or no ? Surely then we need not want true Understanding and Judgment in things of lesser Concernment . And we are so far from limitting the Lord , his Power and Church to Persons , or such as would exercise Authority above their places , that we affirm ( as we experience ) that the Power is universally free and unlimitted , and the whole Church , even every living Member of the Body of Christ pertakes of it , though every Member is not an Eye ; and we further testifie that wheresoever two or three are gathered together in Christ's Name , there he is in the midst of them to aid and ass●st them , whether it be to make Agreement on Earth , end Differences , give a true Judgment in matters as there shall be need in the Church among the weak , or only to wait in Truth of Heart upon the Lord , to receive inward Advantage unto their Souls ; and God beareth us Record that our Eye is to his Power , and our Dependence is upon his Counsel upon all weighty Occasions in our Assemblies , and not upon our own Understandings meerly as Men. Now it were very gross and impious to deny that Priviledge to the whole Church , Body or general Assembly , which two or three met in the Name of Christ pertake of , namely , his Presence in the midst of them ; and if his Presence be in the midst of two or three met in his Name , surely he will not be absent from a greater number so met ; but saith W. M. Cannot he reveal to a particular , yea such things as the Church would he startled at , yea , and be ready to question the Verity thereof ? yet he confesseth , that it hath pleased the Lord to reveal himself unto the lowly Ones , that are little in their own Eyes to inform the Church and Elders thereof : And are not these lowly Ones Members or included in the Church then ? Or is the whole Church or Body which he confesseth Christ to be the Head of , in such an Exaltation over the lowly ones ? Oh what confused Work doth this man make ? yet we will grant him that , that may be revealed in some particular Cases to a Prophet or Apostle , which is not to all in the Church ; but then such Prophets or Apostles are no self-Separators , but included in the Church , as having one Head , and then the Church will not be startled thereat , nor question the Verity thereof , but be in Subjection to the Power or Head Christ , which reveals ; and the Spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets . John to the Angells of the seaven Churches in Asia ; Moses , Isaiah , Jeremiah , &c. to the Jews had particular Discoveries and Reproofs who thereby did not make Divisions nor Schisms in the true Evangelical Church , nor oppose any comely Order or Custom therein ; but then his Comparison is unequal between the Church ( or Body of Christ ) now , and the Carnall Jews , fallen Angells , Elders that sat in Moses Chair , who Resisted the Appearance of Christ both in Flesh and Spirit , or between the Spirituall Church , and Congregation of Israel whom Caleb and Joshuah withstood ; is there not a manifest disparity between the Carnal Jews Under the Law , and the Spiritual Church now Under the Gospel , from whom his Work still drives at a Separation in those he counts the lowly Ones that may have such things revealed as the Church may be startled at ? who then are those lowly Ones that are not of the Church ? And what are those peculiar Revelations or Motions ? Are they such as John Perrot , John Pennyman , W. Mucklow , &c. whose perverse Spirits and Works of Darkness are denyed by the true Church among us , as J. Perrot with his Motion , To be ashamed to morrow of that which he might do in Truth and Righteousness to day ? or J. Pennyman with his Motion to have the Bible and Testimonies of Martyrs , with other good Books to the Exchange in order to burn ? Or to invite both Jews and Gentiles to the Publication of his Wedding at Merchant-Taylors Hall ( and to his many Venson Pasties , voluptuous Extravigancy ) and there to act a Fool 's Tragedy , and to tell the People , I have taken M. B. but when and where he had before taken her he told not ( so how should they witness to his clandestine Proceedings ? they hoped they should have come to his Wedding , but were cheated and deceived of their Expectations ) And afterwards his Motion to cry against us in our publick Assemblies ; which whimsical Motions and mad Actions of his the Church hath utterly denyed and condemned ; and also W. M. with his Motion to deliver his envious confused Papers neer our Meeting-House Door to all sorts of People , to render the People of God called Quakers odious and obnoxious ; it seems , he values his own Reputation ( which he pleads for ) more then the Church's . He saith , Of what hath been said this is the Sum , A Church limitted to Persons may impose an Error , and cast out the most spiritual : Seeing his great Matter against the Church , is summed up in this narrow Compass ; let it be noted , that his Charge against the Church or Body , which he hath confest Christ to be the Head of , is varied into a Supposition against a Church limitted to Persons , that such a Church may err and cast out the most spiritual : And that is not true , as it s universally stated of a Church limitted to Persons , which is any Church or selected number of persons , whereas there are Persons in the true Church , that are grown in the Truth and VVisdom of God , who being chosen out by the Lord and his People for any Service of Truth , they are a Church , and fitted to do the Service they are called to ; and so are two or three gathered in the Name of Jesus , whom he is in the midst of : And to be sure , if this Man will own that there is any Members in the Church , of a sound Judgment ( or any Eyes in the Body ) there may be a Church or select Number chosen out , that will give a true Judgment , and make a right Distinction between the pretious and the vile ; and we know there are such Persons in the Church of Christ now , Men growa in the Light and Wisdom and Counsel of God ; and of old the Church had Power in some Cases to chuse out Men of honest Report , full of the holy Ghost and Wisdom ▪ and there were Elders and Overseers made by the holy Ghost ; however the Elders and ancient Frie●ds now , who have kept their Integrity be slited by Apostates , who are fruitless withered Branches ; as for this Man's Vindication of his Innocency from being one of the Cabal with the Author of Tyranny and Hypocrisie , in that he saith , He hath not the least A●● 〈…〉 with him that is said to b● the Author thereof . We do not look upon this to be sufficient to clear him from being one of the Cabal , or Correspondent with some of those that had a Hand in that slanderous Pamphlet , because some of the matter came from himself , he was an Informer at least , confessing himself to be concerned in page 50. and 52. and he hath appeared in the very same Language of the Spirit of the Hat and Tyranny , &c. against us ; however he seems to clear himself more from being directly the Author of the latter then of the former ; for that Spirit of the Hat shews forth W. M's perverse Spirit and Language ( against the Body , and our Ministry and Elders ) rei●terated in this late Paper : His Reflection upon J. W. and T. M. is answered before in our Book against Judas and the Jews . However he hath not dealt either like a Brother or Christian with them , in notifying them to the World in such an infamous manner ; if they had been culpable of all that 's reported against them ( which they are not ) he should have first admonished them in private , and not to have dealt with them as with Heathen , in this publick manner , unless they had refused ( not only ) to hear ( him and two or three more ) but the Church also : I appeal to his Conscience , hath he taken this Course to gain his Brother according to Christ's Precept ; and dare he say that T. M. hath not been dealt withall for his Miscarriage , though we never understood it was so gross as rendred in Tyranny and Hypocrisie [ wherein J. W. and many others are abused ] However is it equal to cast that upon us which we have condemned and are clear of ? Or to upbraid any with what is past , that have repented , received Mercy and Forgiveness from the Lord ? Would he be so dealt by ? Oh hard-Hearted perfidious Man. To his saying , It is denyed that he accused G. F. to be a Respecter of Persons in Judgment ; but he positively affirms , he did so accuse him . But I ask , how is it denyed that he did so accuse him , when it is confest , that some pronounced Woes upon W. M. Judas and the Jews , p. 22. which sure was on some Occasion given by him ; therefore his Accusation was condemned by the Meeting ( and so in the said Book ) as false ; and Wo belongs to that treacherous Spirit that was the Author of it , and since hath spread it to the World ; he saith , He is ready to make good his Charge , if they deny it , &c. It seems , it is not made good yet then ; but still he violates Christ's Precepts , for if he could have made it good , he should have done it before two or three Witnesses and the Church , if there had been need , and not have publisht it to the World , unless there had been a refusing to hear the Church ; but on the contrary , the Church hath given Judgment and Pronounced Woes against this ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN who hath refused to hear the Church . His accusing us with justifying the accused when guilty , and condemning the Accusers when Innocent , and saying , until you take Shame unto your 〈◊〉 & lie low before the Lord for these Abominations , &c. If he had apprehended any Injury done him of this kind by any among us , he should have told the party of it particularly , that the matter might have been heard and determined within the Church , and not have ( in this general Way of charging ) divulged it to the World , tending to beget a general Suspition against us , but its manifest , that his Accusations proceed from an envious Heart , which God will judge , and favour of an exalted Luciferian Spirit in him , that assumes such an Infallibility in Judgment , and Power to exclude and excommunicate others , which he will not allow the Church ( or Body that Christ is Head of ) among us , whilst all along he suggests that the Church may err in Judgment and Tryal of Spirit● , but he would have his Judgment against us believed as Infallible ( no doubt ) or else he would not be so positive in it , but rather have ●●●ted it as Queries proposed , which is not Liberty of Cons●ien●● 〈◊〉 . His admonishing us to let Judgment pass upon the Transgressors and ●●●are no Person whatsoever for Favour or Affection ; implies then that we ( as the Church ) must have infallible Judgment and Power to pass it : How well this agrees with much of his Work against the Church , I leave to them whose Eyes are open to judge . To his pretending , that he hath discharged his Conscience towards us in Faithfulness . VVe are sure that his reviling us openly to the VVorld , and infamously notifying Persons among us , without any faithful , friendly , or Gospel-Proceeding with them within the Church ; these do neither savour of any tender Conscience nor Christian Spirit . Oh gross Dissimulation and manifest Hypocrisie and Treachery , thus to place his own Malice and Shame ( he has fomed out against us ) upon Conscience and Faithfulness : And so his conclusive Title to himself savours of meer feigned Flattery and deceitful Insinuation , in calling himself , One who greatly desires to see Moderation , Love and Charity to be mutually extended unto all those whose Hearts are upright and Consciences tender towards the Lord , though in several Forms . Thus he would ingratiate himself into a popular Affection , whenas he hath shewn neither Moderation , Love nor Charity ( but the contrary ) towards the House-hold of Faith , among whom he sometime walked not long since ( namely , among the People of God called Quakers ) having represented them , as no better than a Church made up of 1. Imposing usurping Elders ; 2. Complying Hypocrites ; 3. Fearful , Enslaved and Ignorant Persons , who comply for Fear or Self-Interest , and not from a real Conviction in themselves : The very Tenour of his VVork doth at least implicitely thus charge us : And as we are a People professing the Name of God , and bearing witness to his pretious Truth ; we do commit our Cause to him to plead and vindicate our Innocency from these Aspertions and Slanders , not doubting , but he will rebuke that Treacherous Spirit , that hath so grosly abused and mis-represented us to the VVorld . AS concerning B. Furly's Paper long since writ , but lately part of it inserted in Tyranny and Hypocrisie , and which that Scoffer Fra ▪ Chadwel , and others of Truth 's Adversaries have boasted of against me ; this may signifie , that as it was writ when B. F. was clouded by this Spirit of Division ; since ( through the Lord's Mercy ) he hath been brought to a better Understanding , and to see and judge his former Prejudice and VVorks thereof ; being satisfied also that the Apostates and Baptists had not in the least B. F's Consent in the Publication of his Paper , which I did ( presently after I had it ) give a plain and full Answer * to in the Light of Truth ; and J. Pennyman was privy to those Controversies , being intrusted in conveying the Letters between us ; but he was not pleased to publish my Answer , but rather to abuse my Name in Print without Cause , accusing me with subtil and dark Imaginations , * But he should look at home , and see his own dark Imaginations : Judge serious Reader , what Respect these Men have to the Truth and People of God , in their reviling the Innocent , despising the Church of Christ in print , publishing Weaknesses and Failings of particulars , that have been judged by them long ago , raking up condemned Stuff to cast upon us , telling those things in Gath , and publishing them in Ashkelon , that cause the Uncircumcised to triumph : All which have necessitated us , thus publickly to appear in Truth 's Vindication against them . G. W. Some Defects and Faults escaped in the Press , thus to be corrected . EPistle page 3. Line 12. read have kickt . P. 4. The Margin-Note relates to Fra. Chadwell . L. 9. r. among us . P. 7. L. 1. for and r. is . L. 6. for and r. are . L. 8. for Heads r. Friends . P. 8. L. 2. for in r. him . L. 33. for or Mother r. and Mother . P. 9. L. 33. r. Arbitrariness . P. 12. L. 19. for nor r not . P. 15. L. 19. dele and. P. 17. L. 4. for Word r. World. L. 28. for this r. they P. 18. L. 10. for hat r. that . THE END Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65836-e180 * Whose false Doctrines & Blasphemies against the true Light , we have also upon Record . Notes for div A65836-e380 * Howbeit it hath been a Mark of our disowning the Prayers of the wicked and Unbelievers , and the same Spirit that hath led us to deny doffing our Hats to Men , or to honour proud Flesh , hath led us to doff them in Prayer to God in our Assemblies . * Which I could yet produce if need were . * In his Paper , dated London , 3. Day of Aug. 1671. 
A65831	----	Piety promoted by faithfulness manifested by several testimonies concerning that true servant of God Ann Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1686 Approx. 97 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 63 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65831 Wing W1885 ESTC R19754 12290265 ocm 12290265 58876 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65831) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58876) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:6) Piety promoted by faithfulness manifested by several testimonies concerning that true servant of God Ann Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 124 p. s.n.], [London? : 1686. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to George Whitehead. cf. NUC pre-1956. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Whitehead, Ann, 1624-1686. Society of Friends. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-04 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-04 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Piety Promoted BY FAITHFULNESS , Manifested by several TESTIMONIES Concerning that true Servant of God Ann Whitehead . The Righteous shall be had in everlasting remembrance . Printed in the Year , 1686 George Whitehead HIS Epistle and Account Concerning The Life and Death of Ann Whitehead his dear Wife . To be Communicated to Friends , especially those who knew her in Truth and Faithfulness MY dear and tender hearted Friends , who truly love the Name of the Lord , and the precious and living Unity and Society of his holy Spirit , whereunto he hath called and gathered us by his invisible Power ; you are truly dear unto me in that life which shall never die , and in that love which is stronger then Death , and therein my Soul truly loves all the Faithful in Christ Jesus , and such have been and are my Joy and Crown of rejoycing in him , and such can sympathize one with another , and bear one anothers Burdens in all Afflictions , Tryals and Sorrows which befall the Righteous in this short time of our Pilgrimage here on Earth . And my dear and tenderly beloved Friends , though my Spirit be greatly bowed down , and my Heart daily broken before the Lord under my present Exercise and Affliction , in parting with so dear and true a Companion , and faithful Servant of Christ and his Church , as my dear wife was well known to be ; yet I feel secret peace and acceptance with the Lord , in an humble submission to his blessed Will , and in being reconciled to him in all his Ways and Dealings with us , under all such Tryals as he sees meet to bring upon us ; as well knowing , that precious to the Lord is the death of his Saints , and that the Lord who gives , he takes away at his pleasure , & none can hinder him , nor may we say to him What dost thou ? But wh●re Friends so nearly related have so long lived together , in that sincere love , unity , concord and tender heartedness one to another as we have done , 't is a tryal to part , 't is a day of exercise and heaviness , and requires some time to get thorow it , & 't is the Lord alone that can effectually relieve comfort and bind up the broken hearted in such Cases and distressed Conditions . Yet we sorrow not as those that have no hope of Immortality , or of meeting together in immortal Glory and Felicity hereafter ; for Life and Immortality is revealed and come to light in a good measure , and therein have all the faithful Members of the Church of the first Born some spiritual Sense and Union with the Spirits of all just Men and Women , who have faithfully served the Lord in their Generation , and finished their course with Joy ; and the real sense of the Sincerity , Love and Zeal of my dear Wife , for the Name of the Lord , lives and has deep impression upon my Heart , and upon the Hearts of many more . She truly loved Truth and Righteousness , and hated Wickedness and Deceit , Loosness and Pride : She was plain hearted and true , and of a right Mind & sound Judgment , and near and dear to the Lord ; and therefore I always valued her in Truth , & esteemed her as one whom God had effectually endued and qualified with Wisdom for her Service , which was required of her : She truly and tenderly considered the Poor , the Widows and Fatherless , and spared not her self to serve them that were in distress : She was faithful and kept her integrity to the end , and the Lord has taken her to himself , her Spirit is received into rest with God in Christ : She has obtained that blessed end that Crowns all her Labours , Sufferings and Service . I cannot forget her lively Testimonies and Expressions upon her dying Bed , nor be clear without communicating something of the substance thereof unto you my dear and tender Friends , who knew and truly loved her as she did you ; my Soul hath been , and still is deeply affected in the sense and seeling of that tender Love and Union that is among you , and was between you and her in her Life time , and with your tender heartedness towards her , and in remembrance of her Life , and Testimony , and Service for Truth she had among you ; and therefore recommend unto you some of her living Testimonies , Expressions and Desires to Almighty God for his People , upon her dying Bed , and near her latter end , in testimony of her real and tender love in Christ Jesus unto Friends , as followeth , viz , Upon some discourse which a Friend had with Ann Whitehead of the great service which her Husband was in , and had done for suffering Friends , she answered , The Lord has blessed and prospered my Husband in his Service , which is great satisfaction to me , and this I shall leave behind me , as that which is satisfaction to me ▪ th●● I never did detain him one quarter of an hour out of the Lord's service , &c. On the 23d 5th Month 1686 , in the presence of several Friends , she declared , as followeth , viz. I would not have you too much concerned about me , as to my going hence , I am in the hand of the Lord , &c. ( and with respect to Friends ) I desire the God of Peace and Love may be among all Friends , and that they may be kept in Love and Peace , and Concord , unto which we were gathered in the Beginning , that the same that gathered us in the beginning may always preserve Friends in the spirit of Love , and of a sound Mind , [ these words she expressed several times over ] so as the God of Peace and Love may continue with them , and be with them to the end ; and as for me , however the Lord shall please to dispose of me I am content in his will. And Friends Visits she several times acknowledged , as their great kindness and love to her , though her weak Condition for some time could not bear much Company at once . She further declared after this manner , viz. And as to my Husband , I have signified my mind as to what I would have done , and leave it to him to do as he sees meet , Hee 'l do what s just and right . In our first coming together I had an Eye to the Lord , that I might do nothing but what might be accerding to his will , and that I might serve the Lord and his Church ; and the Lord has answered my desire : and he has been a tender and true Husband to me , in all respects , &c. I have nothing desireable to me in this World save my Husband , but I am content & given up in the will of God , however he shall please to dispose of me , &c. On the 24th 5th Month 86 , being asked , how she was , she said , I am well , I know nothing in this World , nor that to come , but all 's well : Implying , that all was well with her . A little after again expressing how well she was , and given up in the will of the Lord ; and signified her unity with all faithful Friends , as being a living Member of the Body of Christ with them ; and her great love to all Friends in the Truth ; and though she signified that a sadness had come over her Spirit for two or three Weeks , insomuch that she was ready to Weep ( as she said ) when any Friends looked upon her , or spake to her , and that she had been something troubled at it , as not knowing any thing by her self as the reason thereof , but that she was naturally Pensive , ( as she said ) being then clearly got over all that Sadness of Spirit , and over all her Affliction and Pain , insomuch that the more near she drew towards her end , the more chearful she was , her Spirit being greatly revived and comforted in the great love of God , and his tender mercies to her , whose mercies endure for ever to them that fear him . This faithful Servant of our Lord Jesus Christ was in such Patience , such Contentedness , such Subjection of Spirit and holy resignation to the will of the Lord , that she appeared no ways burdened with the thoughts of Death , nor concerned , nor in the least troubled about it ; Life immortal was over all . But still she was given up in the will of God , desiring others not to be concerned nor troubled about her , if the Lord pleased to take her away , saying , Let me go away quietly . Upon the 25th 5th Month 1686 , when her antient and faithful Friend Mary Stout of Hartford came to visit her , towards evening , being asked , if she knew her , she said , Yes , very well . 't is Mary Stout , I have my Memory very well , and my Understanding is clear , though I am very Weak , but I am given up into the will of the Lord whether to Die or Live , for I have been faithful to him in what I knew both in Life and Death . When she discerned any Friends troubled , she was concerned , & would say , There 's no cause for you to be troubled , or concerned , for I am well , and in peace , and have nothing to do , &c. with several more words to the same purpose . Besides the many seasonable tender & Christian Exhortations and Counsel which on her dying Bed she gave in the love of God to particular Friends , ( which I pray God may be truly remembered and practiced ) and her many weighty and apt expressions in discourse on several occasions relating to Truth , &c. On the 26th 5th Month 86. in the evening , Ann Whitehead said to her Husband , &c. The Lord is with me , I bless his Name , and I am well . It may be you are afraid I should be taken away , and if I be , the will of the Lord be done . Do not trouble your selves , nor make any great ado about me . But my dear , go to Bed , go to Rest ; and if I should speak no more words to thee , thou knowest the everlasting love of God , &c. The next morning being the 27th 5th Month 1686 , near three in the morning she quietly departed this Life , at Briget Austil's , at Southstreet in Middlesex , her Husband , Sister Ann-Mary Freeman , Ann Cox , Mary Stout and Briget Austil being present at her departure . And now dear Friends , the great tenderness , gravity and solemnity among our tender and loving Friends accompanying her Body to the Burial on the 29th of the 5th Month 1686 , did very deeply affect my Heart ; Friends love was felt beyond utterance . Thus having given you ( my dear Friends ) this naked account , I tenderly recommend you all to the grace of God , to preserve you in the unity of his holy Spirit , faithful to serve out your Generation in the love of God , and blessed concord therein . I pray God keep you , comfort and supply you with all that 's needful for you to the end of your days ; and in the end crown all your labours of Love for his Names sake , with a Crown of Life and Glory that fades not away , Amen . Your assured Faithful Friend and Brother , G. Whitehead . Written in the 5th and 6th Months , 1686. Ann-Mary Freeman HER Testimony for her dear Sister Ann Whitehead . AS to my dear Sister Ann Whitehead , who was greatly beloved in the Lord , by all that knew her aright in the blessed Truth of God , for that she was always given up , as a true and faithful Member of his Church , to serve him in constant sincere Obedience , in her Generation and Day , on all accounts , as is well known , whose practice and manner of Life & Conversation , being not only Blameless , but of good Report and Savour amongst Men , from her Youth up ; when I was but a Child she took me unto her care , and tenderly educated , and helped me many Years ; and though young in Years then , yet this I can testifie , that her desires and inclinations were always religiously bent to serve the Lord , both in Private and Publick , in that way of Worship her Understanding reached to , being so given up and devoted to his Service , that her Zeal for the same hath carried her through much hardship of Body , early and late ; and in due time the Lord answered the desires of her Soul , in visiting her with his Gospel Day , and powerful Testimony of the glorious Light thereof ; which she willingly imbraced , through the Lords goodness and love to her , and gave up to walk in the Light of the Living , and was a Sufferer for bearing Testimony to the Truth , and found great Peace and Satisfaction , and the Lords presence and blessings in her Faithfulness and Perseverance , and indeed , as a natural Sister , I can say , and that in true thankfulness to God , I have had great cause to bless the Lord in her behalf , for she was a Treasure to me of great Value , and I can truly say I honoured her as my Mother , and she was not only a blessing to me , but also to my Fathers House , and the Memorial of her is pretious to me , and will be blessed to Generations to come ; and now as it hath pleased the Lord to take her hence , and I am deprived of so dear and near a Relation , I am , though in the bowed-downness of my Spirit , before him subjected and reconciled to his will , as knowing he giveth and taketh , and in his own time and pleasure , in whose hand the breath of all is : So she is gone to Rest , and I am fully satisfied her Soul is in Peace and Joy with the Lord eternally . Much more might be said of her by me , but her daily Care and Service being so well known by Rich and Poor , Old and Young , I shall forbear inlarging , knowing her Reward is with her , and her Works follow her ; for she did spend , and was spent to serve the Lord faithfully in Truth and Righteousness to the end of her days ; and this I am a Witness of , though one of the meanest in Gods Vinyard , who am by Name Ann-Mary Freeman . A Testimony for my dear and wel-beloved Friend Ann Whitehead , whom I dearly loved in the Lord , and that for her Works sake , and for what the Lord had done for her . I Had a true knowledg of her in the blessed Truth , according to my measure ; she was a blessed Instrument in the hand of the Lord ; about some twenty seven Years ago , it was my lot to meet her at Kingston , at the House of John Feilders , where we had a Meeting on the first day of the Week , and the Lord was pleased to seaze so upon me , by his everlasting power , through her Ministry , that the operation thereof did so open my understanding , and confirm me in the blessed Truth , that I could set to my seal that it was the true and the living way , and the way wherein no Soul could ever be deceived ; which day is never to be forgotten with me , amongst the many other days of the Lords tender Visitations to my poor Soul in the days of my Distress ; and after I came more acquainted with this my dear Friend , seeing her Faithfulness and Uprightness in the Church of God , and her great care she had of the Servants of the Lord , it did incline my Heart more and more unto her , blessed be the Name of the Lord , who hath quickened and made alive unto himself , and hath made us near and dear one unto another , and hath knit and tyed , and bundled up , and hath united us together in that one Spirit , which is the bond of our Peace , where there is no Rent nor Division , but all one in Christ Jesus our Lord. And this is my Testimony further to her Ministry , that it was living and true , and she was one that never would go beyond the gift of the Spirit , but always would return into that blessed Power that gave it forth , which was very pretious to all that heard her ; and I can truly say that my Soul hath been many a time truly refreshed by her , and in her , and my Heart hath been made right glad , for the which I bless and praise the Name of the Lord forever , who is worthy saith my Soul. She was a true and faithful Woman to the Lord , and to his Truth , and had a Testimony in her Heart against all things that would make a seperation therein ; and I can truly say , it was very hard for me to part from her , because of her worthiness , and the want of her in the Church and Family of God , and especially in our blessed Woman's Meetings , where she was made very serviceable beyond many others , through the gift the Lord had given her ; but considering the work is the Lords , and he is alsufficient to carry it on , to raise up other Instruments in her place ; the consideration thereof is a satisfaction to me , and many more of my dear Friends and Sisters in the Truth , and now she is ceast from her Labours and Sufferings , and is at rest with the Lord , who is her reward for all ; but tho she is gone , her Spirit lives in the Hearts of the upright forever . There is one remarkable thing brought to my mind , which was the last Testimony of this our dear and wel-beloved Friend Ann Whitehead , at a Meeting at the Bull & Mouth , a few Weeks before she departed this Life ; first signifying ' to Friends how she came to the Meeting in much weakness , to be refreshed among us , but withal declared , how she was burdened to see the vanity of the minds of some professing the Truth ; and so she went on Exhorting and Admonishing , and Testifying against Pride and Vanity which she saw among some young People that came among Friends . So it is the desire of my Heart to the Lord that this her Testimony might not be forgotten , but have a living impression upon the Spirits of all those whom it concerns ; and in that love which desires the good of all , I rest Your Friend and Sister in the blessed Truth ihat sets free . Mary Elson . Margaret Meekings HER TESTIMONY Concerning Ann Whitehead . IF any , surely I have cause to bring in my Testimony for my dear Friend Ann Whitehead , who was my antient Acquaintance , both before and since she knew the Truth , she being girded before by him she did not know , not to trust in earthly Riches , but did then with prudence , and much tenderness do her duty , far exceeding any I knew in that day , and since she has been convinced of the ever blessed Truth , which thorow many tryals and difficulties , and great exercises she has passed thorow to walk therein , a very useful Instrument , in variety of ●●●vices , in the work of the Lord she hath been , by his assisting power , who endowed her with much Wisdom and sound Knowledge , to give Counsel and Advice to the Simple , and much freeness to help the Helpless both with inward and outward Comforts , and when in the outward she lived well of her own , in the beginning , she then gave up all to suffer and serve the Truth ; Oh her Value and many Vertues , I want words to express what she was to me , & to many more that truly knew her , so that her blessed footsteps I desire to walk in all my appointed time , that as she did , I may lay down my Head in Peace , who I am well satisfied is gathered into that bosom of Love where Joy and Felicity endures for evermore . Margaret Meekings . A TESTIMONY Concerning Our antient and dear Friend Ann Whitehead . THE one Eternal God , besides whom there is none , has in these last days manifested himself Emanuel , God with us , and in us , of a Truth , and all that into the new Covenant are gathered and there abide have his Teachings , and feel his Presence , and in the eating of the Bread that comes down from God discerns the Body , whereof Christ Jesus is head , and know the Communion and everlasting Union with God and all Saints ; so when any are removed or fallen asleep , laying down their earthly Tabernacles , our fellowship in Spirit ceases not , nor do we sorrow as those without hope , but can with Joy remember , and make mention of those that Lived and Dyed in the holy Faith , not speaking the praise of the Dead , but of the Living , as this our dear Sister Ann Whitehead , who wrought in God , and her Works follow her ; I knew her enterance was at the straight Gate , and had no sooner the sight of the Pearl of great Price , but was willing to sell all for it , so put away that which was delightful to her , tho her own Wotks , & highly priced by others , yet least there should be an Idol in them , were thrown in the Fire by her ; yea , all that she thought would stop her in her Enterance , or hinder her walking in the narrow Way , yea her Relations , whom she had manifested much kindness to , yet being contrary to Truth , she seperated from ; and thus having cast off that which pressed down , she was not Idle , but testified of the Truth in City and Country , as called of God , and she manifested , that she was in the true Faith , for it worked by Love , I am a Witness thereof , with many more . Before the Womens Meeting was settled she went visiting the young convinced both Rich , and Poor , Counseling and Exhorting as was needful , and supplying the Poor , and stirring up others thereto , and watching with those that were Sick , and comforting the Parents with their dying Children ; yea helpful in many States , and had no Reward , nor looked for none , but what she found in well-doing , and I was one that was a partaker of her free Services , which was in and for the Truth-sake , daily stirring up others thereto , that I then said in my Heart , she was worthy to be an Example to all , but by me rather to be Admired then Imitated , for she was so Provident and Endustrious , that tho she spent her time in doing good , yet did not waste what she had , but did encrease it every way , having not only an open Heart , but a diligent Hand ; but when she came to be a Wife , she was a blessing to her Husband and his Children , as he told me himself , admiring her with many Praises . And since the Womans Meeting came to be settled , in which her Services were very great , as in the Plague time , and after the Fire , necessities being so great , and many , that there was much need of Wisdom and Parts to go through what was required of us , her care , diligence and pains , and readiness in Accounts , and disposing of it more then many , for her abillities therein exceeded most , tho many were willing to work with her , but she only in those things moved the great Wheel that caused the rest to follow , and she became a Mother to teach and provide for many , and some have , and may confess and call her Blessed , whose counsel and help raised some Families , and preserved others from Ruin. O let her own Works praise her ; but being in my Heart since her Removal , in the Night and in the Day , I could not be clear without making some mention in plainness of that sound Judgment & Wisdom , with Charity , that our God had endued her withal , that as she followed our Lord Jesus Christ , we might be followers of her ; but neither I nor any can add unto her , but what is brought to our remembrance of one so worthy to be an Example , that the minds of some may be stirred up to like Wisdom , Endustry and Practice of those Virtues , in which she did excel ; for we have many Daughters among us that have done worthily , but in many things she exceeded us all . Reb●ca Travars . POSTCRIPT . WHen I heard her Husband , and some others had given forth a Testimony of her , I desired to have seen it , but did not see any until I had writ this of my own , for I being sensible of my old Age and decayed Memory , with my Incapacity , thought it would excuse me , if I said nothing , but as I put it from me , it encreased in my mind , the remembrance of her many worthy Works , and great Sufferings for the precious Truths sake , that if called to it , I could have writ a large Relation of her Actings and Sufferings for the Truths sake , since I knew her , which is about twenty eight Years , but let this little suffice to shew my good will , &c. A better name then that of Sons and Daughters God does give , To them that in his Light do purely Live , For they receive power to eschew all Evil , And so reign over Sin , Death and Devil ; And she and all such , even of free Grace , Sit down with Christ within the heavenly Place , So they , and all that in our God do Trust , And have no Idol , but adore the Just , For it s his Righteousness that maketh pure , And this is the Life that ever does endure , And into this Ocean of Life & endless Love , God gathers those that seek the things above . R. T. Mary Stout HER TESTIMONY FOR Ann Whitehead AS concerning that true and faithful Servant of the Lord , our dear and wel-beloved Friend and Sister in the Truth Ann Whitehead , there is little need of much to be spoken in Character of her , she was so well known and read in the Hearts of most of the Faithful now in Beeing : But that the Generations to come may know what Worthies and Faithful Followers of the Lamb the Lord hath blessed this Age withal , who were as the first Fruits unto God in their Age , that others also may tread in their steeps , and walk as they walked ; therefore it is meet that something should be spoken on this wise , and left upon Record , for the memorial of the Just shall live forever . I am very sensible that there are many dear Friends , especially in and about London , in whose Hearts the Lord had given her an honourable place , and would give her the right hand of Fellowship , whereupon every rememberance of her do greatly lament their loss , and are ready to say in their Hearts , with me , Alass our dear Sister , who shall supply thy place ? but that we know him who is al-sufficient , and will fit and prepare Instruments to carry on his own Work , and is able also to pour forth a double portion of his good Spirit , ( wherewith she was richly endued ) upon those who persevere in wel-doing , and continue to the end , as she did . She was one of those that came forth early , even at the beginning and breaking forth of that glorious day , in these our last times , which many of the Righteous have longed to see , but have not seen it ; and she received the Truth in the love of it , and did bear her part of the Burden and heat of the Day , and discharged her Place , and performed that service in the Body unto which she was called with Faithfulness , and was a true Servant unto the Church of Christ , of which she was a living Member , her Love and Care extended unto all , even from the highest to the lowest and weakest Member thereof , and the daily concerns of her Mind , and travel of her Spirit , and continual endeavours , were , that all things might be so managed , and performed , that the Lord might be honoured , and his People so preserved , as that his Truth might prosper and be advanced through and over all : Thus through her true practicing Religion and constant diligence in the Work and Service of the Lord , she did arrive to such a state in Christianity , and was grown into such a clearness and soundness of Judgment , and was so impartial therein , that she answered the Witness of God , and gained estimation and true value in the Hearts of the Righteous . I shall not descend into particulars to speak what I know of her , although , if I should , I could say much , having been anciently & intimately acquainted with her , even above thirty Years , and knew the frame of her Spirit , and the singleness and uprightness of her Heart to the Lord , to be such , that I must needs give unto her Memory its due , and say , that although I do know many Faithful and Worthy Women , who are dear and precious in the sight of the Lord , and may truly be called Mothers in Israel , yet I know none that did exceed her . When I look back , and call to mind the time of our first Convincement by the Spirit of Truth , and th● uniting of our Hearts thereby unto the Lord , and one unto another , and how we , with many more dear Friends , have been preserved by and in the living sence & feeling of the invisible power of the Lord , in Unity with him , and one with another , even unto the day of her departure out of this World , ( when several who came forth with us are fallen by the way ) I say , the remembrance thereof is precious , and rejoyceth my Heart , even more then I have words to express . And now , as to what was spoken by her when she came to her Death-Bed , I question not but those dear Friends which vvere about her , and vvere longer vvith her then I , have already given a more full and particular account then I am able to do ; only thus much I must say , that her patience and quietness of Mind , and resignation of Spirit , together with those heavenly expressions of that true Peace and full satisfaction , and assurance of the Love and Favour of God at her Death , doth abundantly evidence & confirm what is written of her Life ; for she did certainly die the Death of the Righteous , and her latter End was like theirs , & the close of her Days , and finishing of her Course , doth demonstrate that she had keep the Faith , and that thenceforth there was laid up for her a Crown of Righteousness . Har●ord the 12th Day of the 8th Month 1686. Mary Stout . Some Account OF Ann Whitehead's Early Experience , As written by her near thirty Years Ago . IN living Streams that Spring , With Tears of Joy now can I Sing , Of the Love and Peace that greets When the upright hearted meets In perfect Truth of living Power , Which lasteth ever down to shower , The blessing of the lasting Hill , Into the pure Heart to fill , With the fulness of his Grace , Which beholds with open Face The glory of the holy Spirit , Which changeth man that life to inherit ; Now being come unto the Life , The Tree into the Waters of strife , That fell to sweeten them From their bitter sower Leven , By its own Fruit is known , True Joy & Peace from Heaven flown , Here he may take and freely Eat , For whom God doth prepare his Meat , Even his own Seed of Israel's Flock , Whose Off-spring is the faithful Flock , Which to his Voice alone gives ear , Whereby the Heart is kept so clear , A place only for the pure fear ; The awe and dread of perfect sight Which shineth in eternal Light , There the Lambs Kingdom is known , WhereChrist the Lord hath only Throne , Ruling in Life and Spirit meek , Subjecting all under his Feet , The Earth & Air , & all dark Power , Which may arise to tempt an houer , And try if in the upright Heart It can find out any part , There to get in By Death or Sin , The Lamb to Wouud and Slay , On whom the Beast would make his Prey ; But waiting have the Patience tried , The Faith that saves is soon espied , Which safely keeps the little Flock , That drinketh of the heavenly Rock , From which the Water freely springs , That giveth Life to all good things ; And here indeed , There is no need , Because of right , All that abide i'th'Light , May take and eat There daily Meat , And praises gives To him that Lives For evermore to Reign , Where there 's no Death nor Pain , Glory , glory to the Highest , Who brings to Peace and perfect Rest , These Verses , of dear Ann's own Writing , she gave me at her return from the Isle of Wight , where she ●ad been travelling in the Service of Truth above twenty eight Years since , when she had been absent for some space of time . M. S. Grace Bathurst HER TESTIMONY Concerning Ann Whitehead . SInce it hath pleased the Lord , who is only Wise , by his divine Providence , to remove from us his faithful Servant Ann Whitehead , my Spirit hath been in Heaviness , and Sorrow hath filled my Heart many a time , upon the consideration of the great loss that I with many more shall have of her , as particulars , unto whom she hath been as a Mother in tender Advice and Counsel , and also the Church in general , whose Service she never declined , but in readiness of mind she gave up her self to serve the Lord and his People in uprightness , as I can bear my Testimony in Righteousness for her , having been Conversant with her ever since I knew the way of the Lord , as it is now revealed , in and through the Light and Spirit of Christ Jesus in the Heart , which discovers the works of Darkness , and all secret Iniquity ; I say , ever since it pleased the Lord in the freeness of his Love and tender Mercy to make known his Truth unto me , it hath been my priviledg to be acquainted with this faithful Servant of the Lord , and I have been exercised with her in many Services relating to the Poor , where I have seen her great Care , Love and Charity extend to many poor helpless Families , as also her Wisdom and Justice in making a difference betwixt the Worthy and the Unworthy , and the honest hearted amongst them blessed the Lord for her ; and as there was a care in her to supply their outward wants , she was always furnished with a word of Exhortation , according as their States required , that they should have their dependency upon the Lord ; so that from my own knowledg , her Exercises were many , and her Travels great for the prosperity of Truth ; and I pray God that we who knew her , and are left behind , may follow her steps , as she followed Christ to the end of her days ; and some of her last Words that she spoke to me , being near her end , was , That she was satisfied with the will of the Lord , and did not desire any thing to be otherways then it was as to her , for she felt a Reward from the Lord ; being filled with Joy , she prayed fervenrly for Friends Children , That the Lord would bless them , and that they might fear the Lord , and grow and walk in the Truth , and be preserved from the Spirit of Pride ; which was the Substance of her last publick Testimony , as many may remember . Much more I could say , but this being only to ease my Spirit and discharge my duty to her whom I loved in the Truth . The 4th of the 6th Month , 1686. Grace Bathurst . Mary VVoolley HER TSETIMONY Concerning Ann Whitehead . ALthough I am satisfied there will be Testimonies many , by them more worthy then my self , concerning our dearly beloved Friend Ann Whitehead , yet can I not peaceably pacifie my own Heart and Spirit without giving in my Mite amongst the rest of my dear Friends and Sisters , whom I know have not buried her Works with her Body ; my Testimony is , They shall stand upon Record to after Ages , for I know her savoury Life hath been a help to season many Sons and Daughters , and though it hath pleased the Lord to gather her into everlasting Rest & Peace , & by Flesh to be seen no more , yet doth her Righteous Spirit , Life and Testimony live freshly amongst us , blessed be the Lord therefore : Oh , our dear Ann cannot be forgotten by us , who knew her , as she was a faithful Handmaid and Daughter of the Lord , and by us truly Valued ; for the Lord was pleased to clothe her , with the Kings Daughter , all Glorious within ; her righteous Heart loved no false Coverings , but still was labouring to keep Truth clear over all Deceit , always incouraging all , both Privately and Publickly , to serve the Truth in their day with singleness of Heart , and uprightness of Mind , and where-ever she found the Lord was dishonoured by any , and his Truth evil spoken of , she spared not her self , but with , and in his Wisdom she dealt with such , to bring them to a sight of their evil doing ; the Lord had surely a great regard unto her for her sincerity of Heart in his Service , for I am one with many of the Lords People , that can testifie of her unwearied pains and care in the Church of Christ , like as Priscilla and Aquilla , whom Paul calls fellow helpers in the Gospel , so I know could many of the Lords Servants and Worthies call her in her day ; for the Lord was pleased to give large Gifts unto her ; because her Heart was right in his sight , and her delight was to improve her Talent in her Lords Service , laying aside all things else for the sake of that ; a true Mother in Israel indeed , taking always due care for them that were in want of help , inwardly or outwardly ; to the simple & honest hearted she was truly tender , and was as Eyes to the Blind , and Legs to the Lame , teaching them , in the way of Life , to the strait path where she had walked and travelled without fainting by the way : I would not leave off without giving her her due in more things then these I have hinted , but not being willing to be too large , knowing that many were the Friends that loved her in her Life , & served according to their measure in the ever blessed Truth with her , that would have the same privilidge , in easing of their tender Hearts and broken Spirits as I have ; her dear and worthy Husbands loss is great indeed , in his own particular , but that I know his will is resigned to the will of the Lord ; I saw something of their pure Innocent parting , upon her dying Pillow , which I believe I shall not hastily forget ; as she Lived she Died , an honourable esteem she had of him in her Life , so had she to the Last , with great desires that nothing upon her account might hinder his Service ; of us that were about her , she took a dear and tender Farewel , with a kind acceptance of our Care and Love to her , which was but our reasonable Service and Duty ; for in her day the Lord gave her amongst us , and she was a blessed Instrument ; and the Lord be good unto us , and keep us in his holy fear , that we may run the Race that he hath set before us , and finish our Course with Joy , as I am satisfied she hath done ; Amen , Lord Jesus Amen . From a Lover of the Truth , and the Servants of it . Mary Woolley . The 25th of the 7th Month , 1686. Bridget Ford HER TESTIMONY Concerning Ann Whitehead . FInding my self not clear without casting in my Mite , by way of Testimony , for my dear esteemed and honoured Friend in the blessed Truth Ann Whitehead , whom the Lord endued with Wisdom , and made her a Mother in Israel ; and I can say , I have seen her take the Weak by the hand , and lead them on in the work of the Lord , and she hath been comforted and refreshed when she felt any whom the Lord had made willing to put their hand to his Plow , & their shoulder to his Work ; she hath rejoyced in Spirit and praised the Lord on their account , and like a nursing Mother did tender and cherish the Good and reprove the contrary ; she often visited the Widow and Fatherless , and had compassion towards them , sturring up other holy Women thereunto , as also to clothe the Naked , feed the Hungry , and visit those that were in Prison ; what shall I say ? it was her delight to serve the Lord and his People , she was a faithful Labourer in the Vinyard of our God , and I am fully satisfied she hath finished that Work the Lord sent her to do , with Joy , and now it hath pleased him to gather her to himself , where she rests from her Labours , and her Works follow her , and is crowned with a Crown of Glory ; everlasting Praises , Honour and Dominion be given to our God , henceforth and for evermore , Amen . London , the 24th of the 7th Month , 1686. Bridget Ford Charles Bathurst HIS TESTIMONY FO● Ann Whitehead . AS for our dear Friend A. W. I have this short Testimony to bear concerning her . She was a Person whom the Lord had endued with singular Wisdom , and I have some time hard her say , She sought the Lord from her Youth , and followed the best of Men , and best of Meanes , according to the dispensation of those times . But when the Lord was pleased to visit this Nation with the manifestation of his glorious Truth , she was called in the Morning of that Day , and followed the Lord fully through many Sufferings and various Exercises , and still grew in the Truth ; so that she arrived to a high pitch of divine Knowledg , whereby we may truly say , Deborah like , She became a Mother in Israel : Her Agency and Usefulness in the Church cannot be better demonstrated then by the many Tears that followed her to the Grave ; and as she was filled with heavenly Wisdom , so she increased in humane also , and did not hide her Talent in a Napkin , but spent her self in the Service of the Truth , and was ready to communicate to any that stood in need of her grave Counsel , and of this I know there are many Witnesses ; I can for my own part say , I have often had occasion to resort to her , & to receive Advice from her , in many matters of important weight , and always found her Advice very successful ; and as she was thus serviceable to the Church in General , and to many Members in Particular , so she was very helpful to the Poo● , and a frequent visiter of distressed Families ; I know not indeed wherein she was defective , except ( it were ) to her self , in spending her strength in continual service for the Truth , till Nature hastned to its Center : But I shall not further enlarge , being filled with sorrow for the loss of so worthy a Friend , but wish , that we that remain behind ( may in our measure ) follovv her Footsteps , in her vvorthy Actions , knovving that novv she hath received a Revvard of all her Labours , and is at rest vvith the Lord forever , to vvhom be returned praises by a Member of his Church and People . The 1st . of the 6th , Month , 1686. Charles Bathurst . Bridget Austill HER TESTIMONY Concerning Ann Whitehead . A Short Testimony lives in my Heart , and is weighty upon my Spirit concerning our dear and worthy Friend , and dearly beloved of the Lord Ann Whitehead , of whose savory Life and sweet innocent Conversation I was a Witness for a considerable terme of Years , in all which time , since the Lord in his everlasting Mercy brought me into acquaintance with himself , and true nearness with his People , I beheld her Beauty and Comeliness in the Truth , and her inward Adorning , which was a meek and quiet Spirit , seasoned with Graces , and Vertue , and true Wisdom from above , whi●h the Lord had largly indued her withal , whereby she was always furnished with a Word in season upon all Occasions , a true Mother in Israel indeed , still making it her greatest concern in her place , that all might be kept in right order in the Church of Christ , and nothing vvanting , tenderly admonishing the young Ones to press forvvard in the vvay of Life and Peace , vvhich might make for their everlasting happiness hereafter , and gently advising and exhorting the elder Women to vvalk as good examples , in all Comeliness in their places , that the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ might be adorned by them : These things have I many a time been an Ear Witness to , and my Soul refreshed thereby , & though but one of the least of the Lords Servants that may give in their Testimonies , yet I could not vvith satisfaction pass by without setting Pen to Paper on this wise , having ever since the Lord made me sensible of her Worth , had an honourable esteem of her in my Heart , and my Soul loved her with faithful Love , and as she lived the Life of Truth , so she finished her Course with Joy I am satisfied , as being an Ear Witness of the many sweet & heavenly Expressions that passed from her often times on her Bed of Weakness , which I believe will remain weighty upon my Spirit ; oh her free resignedness up to the will of the Lord , with true contentedness in her Condition , often saying , She had done with all things in this Life , that she had nothing troubled her , but was at true Peace and Ease every way ; desiring us that were about her ( whose Love and tender Bowels towards her she sensibly felt ) that we would not be troubled , but give her up freely , saying to me , but a few houers before she departed , That though she was in a dying Condition , yet it was a living Death , and that Weakness had seasoned her outward Man , but her Understanding and Sense was as perfect and clear as when she was in her perfect Health , and that she was in true Love and Charity with all : Oh , great is the loss of her in the Church of Christ , she whom the Lord had so furnished and fitted for his Service , which she faithfully performed to the last ; I pray God grant that we which are left behind may according to our measures follow her righteous Example , and walk in faithfulness with God as she did in her day ; my Heart is full at this very Moment , and my Spirit broken before the Lord in the remembrance of our dearly beloved Friend , my House being the place where she laid down her Head in Peace with the Lord ; and although her Body be returned to its Center , yet her Spirit and Life is truly felt and witnessed in eternal union amongst us . So having eased ' my Spirit thus far in this concern , I conclude , who am known by Name Bridget Austill . Ruth Crouch HER TSETIMONY FOR Ann Whitehead COncerning my dear and entirely beloved Friend Ann Whitehead , whom it hath pleased God to remove out of this transitory and fading World , and from the Troubles & Exercises which attend it , and the Lord having yet continued me amongst the Livingand capable to say or write something in Commemoration of her , I account my self engaged to perform it ; for as I had a delight to converse with her , and took pleasure to be in her Company when she Lived , so her Memory is sweet , and the savour of her Life remains in the frequent renewings thereof upon my Spirit , and the same shall continue amongst the Faithful through Ages ; she was not to me a Stranger , for besides our unity and oneness in Spirit , I knew her personally from my Childhood , and many precious Oppertunities God afforded us , both Publick & Private , so that I had a full knowledg of her these thirty two Years , as my Capacity could retain , and can therefore with a good Conscience testifie on her behalf , that she was one whom God had , in an extraordinary manner , visited with the springings of his everlasting Day , and furnished her with Wisdom and Gifts beyond many others ; she had a gift of Discerning , and so quick and ready in Comprehension , accompanied with soundness of Judgment , which she managed with a Wisdom and Gravity , even to admiration , all which rendered her honorable in the Church of Christ , where her Service was very great , and unto which she gave her self up to the utmost , of which Service and Labour , many , upon whom it is since sallen , may I believe testifie for her , and I in particular am a Witness on her behalf ; she wanted not , but was largly extensive in her Charity for the Poor , she was always ready to contribute to the Necessitous , she was furnished with Counsel from God to many in Distress both inward and outward , which she readily gave , the same being often accompanied with a good Effect , for she opened her Mouth with Wisdom , and in her Tongue was the Law of Kindness ; and in Meetings , altho she had excellency of Matter , and also of Delivery , by saying much in a few Words , for she used not many , neither was she forward or hasty to Speak , for I believe it was her care not to prevent or hinder the Brethren in their Testimony for God and his Truth , and when any such thing happened it greatly grieved her , for she loved good order in the Church , and made it her business to promote and advance it , and was her self so subjected by a heavenly Wisdom , which instructed her in the right seasons to speak , or to with-hold , even as the same might be of Service in the Church ; so that may it not be said , Many Daughters have done Virtuously but she excelled us all : Her constant and long continued care for the Church and Poor , of late ( through providence ) seemed harder and more difficult to her then formerly it had done , which caused her to desire that some other Women would take upon them some part of that which she had long travelled under , with some desire to with-draw a little by reason of some Weakuess she found attending her outward Man , and accordingly she went into the Country , to Southgate , where her Weakness encreasing she did in a few Weeks finish her Course , and thither I went to visit her , and was sometimes with her in her Sickness , and am sensible that the Lord was with her in a wonderful manner , and furnished her with Patience and Content in her Condition , with a Resignation and holy Submission to his Will , in which frame she continued unto the end . And now that the Lord , who is the God of the Spirits of all Flesh , would be pleased in Mercy to encrease amongst us the number of such Labourers in his Harvest , which is the desire of my Heart , and Prayer to God ; and that he who did in loving kindness visit me early , even in the Morning of this his blessed Day , and hath preserved me until now , grant an encrease daily of his Wisdom and Counsel unto me , that I may serve him and his People in my Generation , and may follow the steps of this my dearly beloved Friend , who is gone before , and through Faith obtained a good Report , and her Works praise her in the Gate . To God Almighty be Glory and Honour over all , for ever and ever , Amen . Ruth Crouch . John Staplo HIS TESTIMONY Concerning Ann Whitehead . THE Remembrance of dear A. W. cannot be forgotten , she was my endeared Friend and whom I loved right well for the Truth 's sake , in the enjoyment of whose Company I have been many a time Refreshed & Comforted , through the savour of Life in her Communication ; she was endued with the Vertues of Truth , and seasoned with the Spirit thereof , which rendered her Converse very acceptable ; great is the want of so dear a Friend , the Lord be pleased to raise up more such spirited VVomen , like minded , to serve Truth in their Generation ; in the early of her day she began to Fear , Love and Serve the Lord , and her Perseverance is known to many , my knowledge of her was about twenty six Years , and she was affectionately tender to me in the time of my first Convincement , when I was a Stranger to most Friends she wanted n●t in that day to give good Counsel , and godly Admonishion ; and I have this satisfaction in my self , I was glad when I had an oppertunity to serve her , and my Spirit hath been tendered in the consideration of what she hath been to the Lord , and done for the service of his Truth and People : I well remember , and believe shall not forget while I retain my Love to Truth , what she said to me when I first visited her ( with another Friend ) as I did often in the time of her Weakness , which she resented kindly , being about ▪ six Miles from London , and said , What do you come on purpose to see me , I take it as an effect of the Love of God , and I pray God Bless thy Children : Which render and motherly Expressions came very near , and affected my Spirit , and there was an earning desire in me , Oh that the Lord would please to spare thee , how glad should I be ; 't was more to me what she said at that time , then if I had had given me a great deal of this World , for that the Blessing of the Lord was , and is of value in my Eye above all outward Concerns . Another time , when I went to see her , which was her last day save one in this World , her dear Sister , Ann-Mary Freeman , being present ; Remember me ( said she ) to all Friends , and I pray God Bless your Families , and if I never see thy Face more , 't is well with me , God doth know my Integrity , and how I have been , and walked before him , and I am in Charity with all Friends , and be not over Careful or Troubled for me , but be Retired and Quiet : My Heart was Comforted to hear her gracious Words , yet Sorrow attended at the thoughts of being deprived of so Dear and Antient a Friend , Diligent and Faithful Servant of the Lord , one that loved the Peace of the Church ; & as there is a Record of David's mighty Men , in another Case , so may she be Remembered among the first of the honorable Women , for such were her attainments ; indeed I want Words to express what I have at times felt ( of her Worthiness ) in my Spirit . One thing I have in memory of her , she always stood clear of taking any part with those that ever rose in opposition to the Truth , and the Servants of it , and had a Testimony against that Spirit in all kinds , that hath appeared to make Divisions amongst the Lord ▪ s People . Well she is gone to her Rest , and we that are left behind a little time to sojourn here , it remains for us to be mindful of our latter Day , and season of Change , for that it may be perceived Mortality comes on a pace on this Generation ; some are concerned in the consideration of how many dear and honest Friends are lately taken from us , we had need be girt up in Mind , and diligent in Spirit , that we fall not short of doing the Work of our Day , and while we have Time , all to prize it . John Staplo . VVilliam Ingram HIS TESTIMONY FOR Ann Whitehead . AS concerning our dear Friend Ann Whitehead , she received Truth at the first breaking forth of it among us , and was blessed of God , who endued her with many spiritual Gifts and Graces , whereby she became a Blessing to others , and the sweetness of that Life which flowed through her Earthen Vessel hath often Comforted and Refreshed God's People , who in the sence of that living Power , which plentifully appeared in her , have many times been broke into tenderness before the Lord , and in their Hearts have returned Praise unto him on her behalf , who was knovvn to be Faithful and Sincere , a true Preacher of Righteonsness in her Day ; and although she outvvardly be taken from us , and her Body removed to its place , yet her Spirit Lives , and the memory of her Faithfulness , Exercise and Sufferings for Truth 's sake , and Labour for the Prosperity thereof , continues amongst us , hath a deep impression on the Spirits of many , and vvill remain in the Churches of Christ , vvhere her Service vvas manifest , as a matter of great Value and Esteem not to be forgotten ; for indeed she vvas a Mcther in Israel , a Nursing Mother to many Children , begotten by the same vvord of Faith , vvhich richly dvvelt in her , vvhereby she vvas strengthened vvith Might in the invvard Man , so that she vvas strong in the Lord , and though many Archers shot at her ; to Grieve & Wound her Life , yet her Bow always abode in Strength , and she was covered by the heaveuly Power of God , out of the Enemies reach , as one of the Lords hidden ones , in favour with him ; and I am assured in my Spirit he hath preserved her unto his everlasting Kingdom of Rest and Peace , who was a sanctified Vessel unto him , fit for his use , and to bear his Name forth unto the World , and an eminent Example of Righteousness unto all , who by her chaste Conversation , coupled with Fear and diligent perseverance in the Truth , did adorn the Gospel of our Lord , being as a true Daughter of Abraham , adorned with those inward Ornaments of the hidden man of the Heart , as were the holy Women of old who trusted in God ; and she has now finished her Course , fought the good Fight of Faith , and I am satisfied hath obtained a Crown of Righteousness , as a reward of her Travels and Labours , which is prepared , not only for her , but for all that love the appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ , a more full Enjoyment of whom she had long been waiting in a preparation for , and as sensible of her Dissolution , or of her Departure being at hand , did often Exhort and Admonish Friends to concern themselves with that part of the Care which fell on her for the Church , and to diligence in the Lords Work and Business , which she her self was mightily furnished to the performance of , through the Wisdom given her of God , and in the consideration of our great loss , I have secretly desired of the Lord , that he would please to pour out of his Spirit on some worthy Instruments to succeed her in his Work and Service . This Testimony is part of what rested on my Spirit on behalf of our dear Friend Deceased , who I greatly valued in the Truth , having often felt the distillings and dropping down of heavenly Dew , and refreshment from her Branch , which springing from the living Vine , brought forth Fruits Savoury and Acceptable , which my Soul did often delight in , and the savour of that virtuous life , which flowed through her Spirit , still is Consolation unto me , and the remembrance of it , I know , will yet be pretious to all who are rightly sensible thereof . William Ingram . Mary Forster HER TESTIMONY Cencerning Ann Whitehead . AH , my Sister , my worthy Friend Ann Whitehead , who was highly favoured of the Lord , and endued with an excellent Spirit , to follow the Lord fully , and to be serviceable to him , his Truth and People ; for the Lord did not only enlarge her Heart , but fill it full of his divine Vertue , and as a Scribe instructed in the Kingdom , she did bring forth of the Treasure which God had given her , things both New and Old ; she fought the Lord in her Youth , and betimes tasted , and was made partaker of his heavenly Grace , so that her Experience was great , and the fresh living Springs of Life did often run through her , to the refreshment of many ; and in the spirit of true discerning she did divide the Word of God aright , to the Poor , Penitent and Broken-Hearted , Peace , Mercy and Forgiveness ; but to the Stubborn , Idle and Disobedient , Righteous Judgment ; and indeed such could not stand before her , yet could she bear the Burdens of the Weak , and Suffer with the Afflicted Ones ; I have for about twenty seven Years known her , her ability and readiness to serve the Lord in his Church , and more especially in the affairs of the Poor , which she did in much Wisdom and Prudence , not sparing her Person or Substance , when either could be serviceable ; indeed it was her Meat and Drink to do the Will & Work of God ; she was a chearful Sufferrer for the Name and Truth of our Lord Jesus Christ , and did encourage others so to do , and to hold out to the end . What can I say ! her Worth is sufficiently known to the Children of the Day ( especially those amongst us ) and blessed be our God , although her Person be removed from us , yet that Spirit which made her amiable to us , in all her Services , is not departed , but remains with us , and hath its operation in many Sons and Daughters ; but she is gone , and we shall see her no more here ; and it hath often run through me ( whose Faith follow ) she had an inward Life and Conversation in Heaven , and whilst here on Earth was clothed upon with Life and Immortality , and was entered into the Rest of God ; and having run the Race , having fonght the good Fight , having kept the Faith , she had the Crown of Life , & is now Crowned with Glory in that Mansion which Christ our Lord hath prepared for her , and not for her only , but for all them who love his appearance , and in their day diligently wait for his coming to finish Transgression , and to make an end of Sin , and to bring in everlasting Righteousness , so come Lord Jesus , The 10th of the 8th Month , 1686. Mary Forster . A TESTIMONY concerning Ann Whitehead . AS the Lord alone is the Author of every good thing that a People or Person doth enjoy , which causeth them to differ in any excellent Vertue , so he is to have the Praise and Honour over all ; yet in a living sence , which I feel upon my Spi-rit , there is a Testimony remains with me for my dear Friend & Sister in the blessed Truth Ann Whitehead , who was an honorable Woman in her Day , and very serviceable in the Churches in and about London , and in other parts of the World , where her hand of Love and motherly Instructions did reach , yea to the Isles afar off ; oh , what shall I say , or write , concerning my dear Friend , whose Body is laid in the Grave , but her worthy Acts yet liveth in the memory of the Faithful , and time would fail to make mention of the many particulars in which her service was very weighty , but this , I may say of her , that she was a faithful Steward of the manifold Gifts and Graces which she received from the hand of the Lord , and that in a plentiful manner ; and she did not hide her Talents , but improved them daily for the benefit of the Churches of Christ , being always ready & fitted for every good Word and Work , and the fervency of her Spirit to serve the Lord & his People did often carry her above the weakness of her Body , who did attain to a good age , and now is gone to her rest in God , like a shock of Corn in its season & though I with many more are often bowed in our Spirits , in the sense of the great want of her , yet I am satisfied her gain is great , and she is entered into everlasting Joy and Peace with the Lord God and the Lamb forever and evermore ; and it is the desire of my Soul and Spi-rit to the Lord , that I with all the Handmaids of the Lord , in and about this City , and every where , may so attend upon the Lord in our several Places and Services , which we are or may be called to , that we may receive more and more of his Wisdom and Counsel , that according to the ability that God gives unto us , we may in some measure supply the place of our dear Friend , who is gone before us , that the great & wise God may be honored by us & through us , who is worthy of all Praise and living Obedience from me , and all that know him in Truth , both at this time and for evermore ; Amen . Writ in the 8th Month , the 5th Day , 1686. S. Plumley . Ann Travers HER TESTIMONY Concerning Ann Whitehead . I Having been well acquainted with our dear and wel-beloved Friend and Sister Ann Whitehead , could do no less then bring in my Testimony with the rest of my Sisters in the blessed Truth of God , I having known her above thirty Years ; at my first Convincement she gave up her self to serve the Church of Christ , and abode faithful to the Truth , and was endued with heavenly Gifts , and was able to lend a hand to the Weak , for the Lord had endued her with a large measure of spiritual Wisdom , and in outward things also she was capable , and also willing to help any in Distress , as for the Sick her care was for them , and for the Fatherless and the Widow , she was as a Mother in care for them , and the loss of her ( in the Church of Christ ) is very great , and the Memorial of her will not be forgotten , for her Works praise her , and will be had in everlasting rememberance with the Lord. The 14th Day of the 8th Month , 1686. Ann Travers . A short Testimony to the good Life of a worthy Matron in Israel , Ann Whitehead . I Knew her six and twenty Years ago , after the breaking forth of that blessed day of God upon us , and she was made an early partaker of the day Star that arose in us , even in the Hearts of Thousands , both Sons and Daughters , of which this my dear Sister Ann Whitehead was one of the chosen Vessels , and by her Integrity and Faithfulness was fitted and prepared to and for her heavenly Masters Use and Service , and so by receiving her pure divine Sap and Virtue from the blessed divine Root , she grew up to be an honorable Vessel , throughly furnished unto every good Work she was called unto , yea a living Member of the true Body and Church of Christ , yea a living Branch of the true Vine , my Soul can bear her witness , with many more who partaked of her Virtue , and saw her motherly Care in the Church , and for the good of all , and so can do no less in Truth and Righteousness , then let her Name be had in living Remembrance , and though her bodily presence be removed from us , yet her living Works praise her in the Gate ; for with Wisdom , Prudence and godly Sincerity she was richly adorned , hating even the Garment spotted by the Flesh , and very severe she was against any that had defiled their Garments , for her Garment was made White in the Blood of the Lamb , and she was like one of those who had not defiled their Garments , And they shall walk with me in White , for they are Worthy , saith he that is Holy and True ; and now , what shall I say , my Heart is deeply affected to think of our great loss , for a true Mother in Israel is gone , and taken away to inherit and possess that Crown Immortal laid up for her , who loved his appearance , and was a faithful follower of the Lamb in the Regeneration , and is now fat down in the Kingdom of Glory with Abraham , Isaac and Jacob , and so we cannot Mourn as those without Hope , but in the will of my heavenly Father to learn subjection by all my Tryals and Exercises ; & the desire of my Soul is , that we that are left behind may be faithful Followers of the footsteps of this our dear Sister , with her dear and honorable Companion , whose Paths , their just Paths have been , and are as a clear and bright shining Light shining forth more & more to the consolating & refreshing of my Soul , with very many more ; and so that Spirit in her , unto which I was united , shall never dye , and in this we feel her amongst us , and are content in the will of the Lord. Lucretia Cook. This Testimony lives in my Heart for my wel-beloved and rightly esteemed Friend Ann Whitehead . SHE was one that did truly fear God , by which she had learned a great degree of true Wisdom , and through the inspiration of Gods holy Spirit had attained to a good and sound Understanding , both of Spiritual and Natural things , through which she was made a Vessel of Honour , being one whom the Lord had fitly furnished to be of great use , and truly serviceable to and amongst the Houshold of Faith , through the virtue of that Life which the Lord often communicated through her , to and amongst them , insomuch that their inward & outward Life was often Refreshed , Comforted and Strengthned ; yea I can say , and am oblieged to acknowledg , that the Lord made her Instrumental to 〈◊〉 both , for which I bless the Lord on her behalf , and that he hath made known and preserved me in the sence of that Righteous Principle which her Christian Practice did often reach to , and answer , as Face answereth Face in a Glass ; and this is that indeed by which I know many with me can in their Spirits seal to , who were and are sharers of the Virtue of that indwelling Life which her Spirit was gathered into ; and blessed be the Lord , doth my Soul say , in the lively sence of her Joy and endless Felicity , who did receive an hundered fold in this Life as an earnest of that Incorruptible Immortal Life , and is now entered into the full possession of it , being an Heir of that Promise , Blessed are the Dead that Dye in the Lord ; she is ceased from her Labour , and her Works follow her . And now alas ! what shall I say , An Isralite is gone this day , Who true and faithful was to God , Against all Wickedness a Rod , A tender Mother , yet indeed Well furnished to help our need , Well then bewail our loss may we , So faithful , true and wise was she , For often did she recommend Us to the Lord , our lasting Friend , Our loss indeed how shall we take , What but her gain can it up make , For sure , revived this may be , One said to dye is gain to me , Which gain transcends ! me thinks I find Her reward great ; that 's in my mind , In Gospel work she had a share , Great was her Labour and her Care To bring more Children to that place , Where Godworks in them by his Grace , This I observ'd that still she aim'd , The Truth of God might not be blam'd , Which faithful Labour I did find , Was from a just and righteous mind . And now I pray , O Lord , keep me , Even all my days , faithful to thee , That so an Isralite indeed , I may be found of Isaacs Seed , Of which right Seed was this my Friend , I testifie , and so shall end . Abigail Fisher. A TESTIMONY concerning Ann Whitehead . DEar Ann is gone ! her Glass is Run , She 's entred into Rest , She lived here in Gods pure Fear , Dy'd in him , and is Blest . She serv'd the Lord in Faithfulness , And when her end drew nigh Told me her Work was finished , She 'd nought to do but Dye . She did desire her Love to Friends Remembred it might be , In that which universal is , The Truth ( which maketh free . ) Great was her Zeal , great was her Cars , And Labour in her Day , To serve and helpful be , to those Were turn'd into Gods Way . She was a Vessel fitted and Prepared by the Lord To honour him , and lov'd all those Who serv'd him with accord . Oneness of Heart , oneness of Mind , Amongst Gods Children dear , She valued high , Exhorting all To dwell in Gods pure Fear . With Wisdom and Discerning great The Lord did her endue , Quickness of Sight and Sence she had With Judgment Sound and True. To me she was a trusty Friend And good advice did give , Her Memory to me is Sweet In that where she did Live. And certainly our loss is great May many Children say , A Mother that in Israel was Is from us t'ane away . But yet the Lord the Living God Her Husband , will remain To us a Father dear , and will His Childrens Cause maintain . 'Gainst those that do his Work oppose , In Males or Females : All Are one in Christ , and those oppose His Work , shall surely fall . God will raise up and furnish more For to supply her Place , Vessels of honour sanctifi'd And season'd by his Grace . To carry on that blessed Work Of Righteousness , which He Will cause to spread and prosper still , To all Eternitie . Benjamin Antrobus . A Short TESTIMONY Concerning our dear Friend Ann Whitehead . A Dear and Precious , Holy and Upright Woman was she in her day , loved Truth and Righteousness , and hated all Iniquity , she was a Mother in Israel indeed ; O how did she make it her great Care and Business to serve the Lord , his Truth and his People , the Widow , Fatherless and Stranger ; she was a good Steward in the House of the Lord , her care was that none should suffer Want , that all things might be keep Sweet and Clean , and in good Order ; she was a Valiant Woman in her day , my Soul loved , her , my Life was knit unto her ; how did she travel before the Flock in great Wisdom and Power of the Almighty : O when I consider the many blessed , sweet and heavenly opertunities that we have had together with her , in our retired waitings upon the Lord , I am ready to mourn apart for her , methinks I feel a miss of her more and more : O how did she wait at Wisdom's Gate to be endued with it , and when through the operation of the same divine Life and Power , opened in her , she spoke in Power , and demonstration of the Spirit , and great Wisdom , so that she was a Comfort , Refreshing and Edifying unto all , to the building of us up in our most holy Faith , so it oft rose in me , That the Words of the Wise are as Apples of Gold in Pictures of Silver , and Wisdom is Justified of her Children ; for so it was indeed , for as she Lived so she Dyed in universal Love to all , but more especially to the Houshould of Faith , for whom her Prayers was Night and Day , that they might be keep pure and clean , without Spot or Wrinkle , or any such thing : O she was an upright Woman in her day , and the Lords powerful presence was with her , from the beginning unto the end , to the laying down of her Head in Peace , and is at rest with the Lord , and I am fully satisfied concerning it , and my Soul blesses the Lord on her behalf , and magnifies his Name , who is worthy of all Praises , and Glory , and Honour forever , Amen , amen , Ann Mackett . A TESTIMONY concerning Ann Whitehead . Dear Friends , THere was a concern upon me in a short Testimony to give in amongst you , with whom my Soul hath Unity , concerning our dear and tender Friend Ann Whitehead ; that she was a Woman whom the Lord greatly honoured with a large measure of his heavenly Wisdom and Power , and in that she was made able to speak aword in season to the strengthening of the Weak and the bowed down one , and many living Testimonies she bore amongst us in brokenness of Spirit , and in that heart melting love of God , in which I can truly say , my Soul hath often been livingly refreshed , with the Souls of many more . Friends my Heart is overcome , and my Spirit bowed down at this time , in a living sence of our loss , which indeed is very great , the Lord make it up unto us , in continuing his presence amongst us , and in a sence thereof strength will be administred to do the VVork of the Lord acceptably , fot this was the Labour and Travel of our dear and wel-beloved Friend , whilst she was amongst us , That all be done in Love , in the blessed order of Truth , and where any thing hapned contrary , it became her Burden , for she delighted in the prosperity of Truth , and in them that lived in it ; this is my Testimony ( from a certain knowledg of her ) in my measure , though one of the least amongst you ; yet as one whom the Lord had reached unto in visiting my Soul in his everlasting Love and Power , in the day of my Affliction , and hour of Temptation which my Soul was under , then did the Lord appear in his unlimitted power for my preservation , and limitted the power of Sathan , so that deliverance was witnessed to my Soul. And this Servant and Handmaid of the Lord travelled amongst us , whom he hath removed from amongst us , but to her great advantage , for she rests from her Labours and her Works follow her , the memorial of whom will Live forever in the Hearts of all the Faithful ; O Lord that it may be thus with me , and with all thy whole Heritage is the cry of my Soul : This lay as a weight upon me being eased , I desire to rest fully satisfied in the will of the Lord , London , 25th of October 1686. Elizabeth Haynes Senior A short TESTIMONY for Ann Whitehead . COncerning dear Ann Whitehead , and my truly loving Friend , whom I have kown above 20 Years , I have this in my Heart to say , That she was a Good Woman , fearing God , and doing that which was right in his sight ; having a Tender Heart , and a Charitable Mind ; being a Help to the Poor , and a Strength to the Weak ; doing always what she did for the Lord & his blessed Truth-sake . Oh , how good hath her Counsel been , and how sweet and refreshing were her Words unto me many a time , which begat great Love in my Heart towards her , and a true Sorrow for her removal , because of the great loss and miss , I know there will be of her among Friends . Well , but the will of the Lord must be submitted to , and we therewith contented , for she is at Rest and Peace with our God , there to abide in everlasting Happiness forever and evermore . Dear Ann is gone unto her Rest , Of Women sure , one of the Best ; True Wisdom had she from above , Filled with Vertue and true Love ; So that to us her loss was such , Caus'd Tears and Sorrow very much : But since it doth to us befall , And God did to himself her call ; Let us beg of him that he will , Our Women with his Spirit fill , And make them able to withstand Truth 's Opposers on ev'ry hand , Till they Gods Work have finished , And all in Peace laid down the head , And Crown'd with Glory in Heaven , So let it be , O Lord , Amen . Jane Sowle . A TESTIMONY concerning Ann Whitehead . COncerning our dear and wel-beloved Friend Ann Whitehead , whom I truly Loved and Honoured in the Lord for the Truth 's sake . This Testimony arises in my Heart : It was her faithfulness to the Truth that made her truly honourable , that is her Crown , and is now set upon her Head for evermore : She having set her House in order , the Lord hath gathered her , by his gentle hand , into Rest and Peace , where her Reward is sure with him , and through her Faith in Christ Jesus , and her steadfastness in the Truth , she hath obtained a good Report in her Day and Generation : She truly Loved , Feared and Served the true and living God , being made subject to the Truth through the mighty Power of God : She was adorned and furnished by the Truth with a good Understanding , true Wisdom and sound Judgment , to discern between things that differ , whereby she was made a very serviceable Member in the Church of Chrst , and a Mother in Israel to many Children , ministring the Word in due season , sutable to every State and Condition ; and I can truly say , we have been often Refreshed and Comforted together in the Lord , and one in another in our Women's Meetings , where the Weak and Feeble have been strengthened , and that which was heady & high abased and brought low , and Truth over all exalted , and we as Members , of that one Body , of which Christ Jesus our Lord is the Head , build up together a spiritual Houshhold unto God : And this was the Labour & Travel of our dear Friend and faithful Labourer in the Work & Service of the Lord , who was therein drawn forth to visit us at our Quarterly-Meeting , at the Bull and Mouth the 5th of 5th Month 86. and it was the last publick Meeting she was at amongst us , for she was then weak in Body , yet she was strong in the Lord , and in the power of his might was she enabled to bear a faithful Testimony for the Truth against all such that made a profession of it , and was high and lifted up above the pure fear of the Lord , and that measure of Truth which many had received and been partakers of in the beginning ; also signifying of what little value all the Glory , Pride , vain Fashions , Customes and Friendships of this World are , and how they all pass away , and will not stand any one in stead in the day of account , which will certainly overtake all ; therefore she exhorted and laboured in the Word of Truth , that all might be warned against , & awakened out of all those things which grieves the good Spirit of the Lord , & are contrary to the pure mind & will of God , that so your Souls might live to God through your obedience to the Truth , and the operation of his Power ( which works in them that believe ) to do those things which are acceptable in his Sight , that God over all may be glorified , for he alone is worthy of all Glory and Praise for evermore . Oh , that we which yet remain , may be found following the footsteps of this our dear Friend , as she followed Christ , leaving us a good example in all manner of god-like Conversation : She was a pattern of Wisdom and Sobriety , and her Integrity to God was manifested through her labour of Love , and faithful Service for the Truth's-sake . In her Life time she sought the good of all , and at her Death manifested her Love the same to all , being sweetly kept in a living Injoyment of true Peace and Rest with the Lord , her Love flowed forth uoto all the whole Flock and Family of God , desiring that we might all live in Love , And the God of Peace ( said she ) be with you , preserve you and keep you all in true Love Peaece and Unity with himself and one with another . And in this peaceable frame of Spirit , I am satisfied , that this our dear Friend resigned and gave up to the will of the Lord , as in her Life time , so at her Death , having fought the good Fight , finished her Course , and kept the Faith , and is at Rest with the Lord , and her Memory is blest forever . Susanna Dew . AND I was truely glad I had an oppertunity to visit her in the time of her weakness , for I was Comforted and well refreshed with the rest of my Friends then present , in the feeling , and injoyment of that Love & Life , which still lives and will remain with all the upright in Heart . And altho her Body be removed from us ; her memory lives in that which is beyond words . So unto that pure everlasting Power ( which works in us and for us both to will and to do according to his good pleasure ) be all Glory and Honour , with Everlasting pure holy Prayses it ascends and is ascribed and given unto him that lives for ever and for evermore . S. D. A TESTIMONY FOR Ann Whitehead . A Living Testimony springeth in my Heart , concerning that worthy Friend and Sister , yea Mother , for so she was to many , Anne Whitehead , who was endued with much Wisdom from above , and one of great Courage , with godly Zeal in the Work and Service of the Lord , and a godly care she had over the Flock and Family of the Lord ; oh , often would she come forth in our Womens-Meeting with a living Testimony , which hath much refreshed my Heart and Soul , and I doubt not but many more can say the same with me , stirring up the pure Mind in many , and often did exhort all to see how , and in what they were gathered ; often did the Spirit of God move on her Heart , to put all in mind , that they might have their Minds exercised in their own Gift ; oh the great care she had to exalt the Name and Power of the Lord over all , and that all might come to feel the Power to administer Life to their Souls : Blessed be the Lord , and Magnified be his pure and holy Name ! I have often felt him in the midst of our Assembles as an overflowing Fountain , and that our own have overflowed , to the praise and glory of his Name ; this is not to adore the Creature , but that as she was a faithful Follower of our Lord and Master Jesus Christ , so we may be found walking in her steps ; that as I am fully satisfied this dear and wel-beloved one hath finished her Course , and laid down her Head in perfect Peace with the Lord , and is enrered into her Rest , it may be so with us : Dear Ann is fallen asleep , yet doth her memorial live , and will be had in everlasting remembranee . So dear Friends , let us be diligent in our places , and be found good Examples , as dear Ann was in her Day , being nursing Mothers , and Patterns of Gravity to those Young Ones that are coming up , that they may have cause to praise the Lord on our behalfs , as a remnant hath on behalf of her that is gone , and we must follow , the Lord knows how soon ; therefore dear and wel-beloved , let us in all things be careful , that we set no bad example to any , neither in our Habit or Behaviour ; I have seen much in my time , since the Lord convinced me of his ever blessed Truth , that lawful things have not been expedient in Apparel , as well as other things : So dear Friends , this is the true desire of my Heart and Soul , and the breathing of my Spirit , that we may walk so circumspect in our Day , Age and Generation , so that when our Change cometh , we may lay down our Heads in Peace also , to the Praise and Glory of the great Name of the Lord our God , who is worthy of all Honour , Glory and living Thanksgiving , not only at this time , but henceforth and for evermore , Amen . Mary Plumsted . MAny are the Testimonies concerning our dear Friend and Sister Ann Whitehead , who was a Mother in Israel ; and indeed our loss was her gain , for she is entered into her Rest , which the Lord hath prepared for those that love his Appearance , and are obedient to his Requirings , and have followed him through many Tribulations as our dear Friend did . In the beginning when God's Truth did first appear in this City , then she became honourable therein , by her cleaving thereto in her Youth , and hath continued therein to her old Age , and hath been honoured above many ; and now my dear Friends , that we may all follow her example is my desire , that am your Sister in the holy Truth . Elizabeth Camfield . A TESTIMONY FOR Ann Whitehead . Serious Reader IT cannot be sufficiently lamented that we live in an Age that abounds with profane blasphemous Atheists , sprung , out of various sorts of Apostates from the way of Truth , whose unclean Hearts are filled with envy against such as have followed God faithfully in their day , & their Mouths with mocking and railing Accusations , endeavouring to bury their Names , Testimony and Sufferings for God : It is meet and needful , in such a time , that there should be some to speak for God , and the way of Truth , and for those that have faithfully served him in their Generation , and are fallen asleep , for so the holy Apostle spake of David : Thus the Spirit of God in ages past hath commemorated the Names and Services of his faithful Followers , and are not their Names and Services this day fresh and sweet amongst us , as precious Odour , even from righteous Abel to this day ? Is not the holy Apostles Catalogue , and cloud of Witnesses , mentioned in the Hebrews , of living and fresh savour and edification in the Church in this our day ? observe how frequently in all his Epistles he commemorates the Names and Services of the eminently faithful , and that the Disciples shewed Dorcas's good Works ; and holy John commemorates the Names of those that loved the Truth ; which justifeth the same practice now , and reproveth the Atheistical Cavellers of our day , that being secretly convicted in their Consciences of Apostacy from God , become deriders of the Names and Services of the Joshuas and Calebs in our age , upon whom the Apostle hath eternized a just motto , That they please not God , and are contrary to all good men . Dear Friends , all feel in your day and time , that comfort , that is , in that God hath set apart the godly for himself ; these are called his Jewels , and God saith in Malachy , They shall be mine : My Heart is inditing good matter amongst the Lovers of Zion , that favour her Dust , and takes pleasure in her Stones , they shall prosper indeed that love her . And I feel constraining in my Spirit to cast in my Mite of Testimony amongst others , concerning our dear Friend Ann Whitehead , of whom I had large Testimony , that the Spirit of God plentifully dwelt in her , branching forth it self in many eminent Services for God , so that she may well be commemorated as a Mother in Israel , that was filled with Zeal for the building of Gods House ; the Apostle spakes of some that were the first Fruits of Achaia , commemorates their Services , and exhorts the Church to acknowledge such : This godly VVoman was of the first Fruits of London in this our day , who hath left a sweet Testimony in the Hearts of Thousands , that she sought not her own things , but the things of Christ ; my own experience of Gods honouring her with his Soul consolating presence was large in many Years holy Communion in our retired Meetings , where God often filled her Vessel with the VVater of Life , to the reaching and refreshing of many Souls : That day must never be forgot , when her Testimony was indeed as the dew and small Rain to the tender Herbs ; so that I was made to say , where is the Scribe ? where is the VVise and Disputers of this VVorld ? meeting with him who is the Glory of Israel , whom my Soul sought after , through Instruments dispised by this VVorld , amongst whom , oh Ann , thou art numbered , and shalt everlastingly shine as a Star in the hand of him that sitteth upon the Throne ; and though as to the mortal thou art removed , yet art present in the general Assembly and Church of the First-Born , who having washt their Robes in the Blood of the Lamb , with Harps in theis Hands , Sing the Song of Moses and of the Lamb , Great and Marvelous are thy Works Lord God Almighty , Just and True are thy Ways , thou King of Saints . The 15th of the 9th Month 86. 〈◊〉 Plumsted . A general TESTIMONY for Ann Whitehead . DEar Friends in the blessed Truth , to whom this Treatise may come , we tenderly salute you in the Lord , and further declare and signifie unto you , that though these foregoing Christian Testimonies were written apart by particular Friends , as they felt a necessity come upon them , in commemoration of the Christian Conversation , holy Example , weighty Service and blessed End of our truly beloved and faithful Sister in Christ Ann Whitehead , yet the said foregoing Testimonies are so concurrent in themselves , bespaking one and the same spiritual Sence and Judgment in many Witnesses , and so clearly agreeing with the general Sence , Knowledg & Experience of our Womens-Meeting in London , to whom the Faithfulness , Labour of Love , Care and Diligence of our said Sister was well known , that our said Meeting doth unanimously own and recommend the same to all our faithful Friends and Sisters in Christ , of other Womens-Meetings , in this and other Nations . Though God is our record , 't is not to admire the Person or exalt the Creature above its place , that these things are written & recommended , but to magnifie the Power and Goodness of the Lord our God , and his divine Grace and Gifts in his Creature , as manifest in this his day , who worketh both immediately and instrumentally , as he teacheth and instructeth , both by himself alone and by his faithful Witnesses , according to his good pleasure . The Holy One in these his VVays and VVorks is not to be limitted , but we ought to admire his great Wisdom , to consider his great Kindness to us in all his Ways , and daily to pray unto him , who is the Father of Spirits , that we may both daily feel his immediate Counsel in our Hearts , & follow their Faith & Christian Example of Love , Peace and Concord , who have thereby left a good Report , and such lively Impressions upon tho Hearts of a Remnant , as may not be raced out , nor easily forgotten . God Almighty preserve us all faithful in his Work and Service , and in his pure Love , blessed Unity , and heavenly Order of his holy Spirit of Life , in Christ Jesus our Lord , unto the end of our Days , Amen . Mary Stott , Hannah Tayler , Martha Hull , Marrabilla Farmborough , Priscilla Hart , Agnes Pool , Patience Ashfield , Constant Etheridge , Sarah Mileman , Sarah Ellis , Elizabeth Man , Mary Mardin , Mary Birkhead , Martha Mathews , Sarah Mead , Ann Paxton , Margaret Drinkwell , Elizabeth Fullove , Hester Bryan , Elizabeth Stoakes , Sarah Edge , Mary Whitpane , Mary Griffen , Grace Jenner , Rebecca Zachary , Elizabeth Vaughton , Mary Sanders , Grace Staplo , Elizabeth Thrope , Joan Wheeler , Joan Perkins , Martha Parker , Elizabeth Cobham , Mary Howell , Elizabeth Gibson , Susanna Ingram , Abigail Harlow , Mary Antrobus , Grace Pinder , Abigail Maylin , Elizabeth Collet , Mary Sims , Mary Wass , Ann Cox , Mary Laity , Elizabeth Brassey , Ann Eccleston , Elizabeth Heywood , Elizabeth Gouldney , Katherine Clarke , Margaret Kinth , Elizabeth Moss , Dorothy Langhorn , Margaret Hallowfeild , Mary Oades , Margery Feild , Issabel J●lly , Joan Dennis , Mary Jennings , Elizabeth Baker , Mary Quare , Elizabeth Newman , Ann Browne , Hannah Perrie , Ellen Petrem , Elizabeth Cullcup , Ann Hubbard , Elizabeth Pate . Mary Willson , Ann Cooper , Willmot Smith , Elizabeth Smith , Elizabeth Grice , Elizabeth Skinner , Susanna Anthony , Ann Phillips , Sarah Clarke , Elizabeth Cartwright , Hannah Scotting , THE END . 
A65838	----	The authority of the true ministry in baptizing with the spirit, and the idolatry of such men, as are doting about shadows and carnal ordinances, and their ignorance of the spirits baptism (of which, water baptism was but a figure) discovered : and herein is shewed, that water baptism is neither of necessity to salvation, nor yet is it now practiced either by authority from heaven, or by any New-Testament-law that is in force upon believers, seeing the substance, and the end of things abolished is come and enjoyed, wherein the types, shadows and fingers, are ended : being a short return to a book entituled, A reply to a scandalous paper, subscribed by one Samuel Bradley, a Baptist teacher, as concerning a dispute that was between some of the people called Quakers, and some Baptists in South-warke. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A65838 of text R19780 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing W1892). 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A65838) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58878) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:8) The authority of the true ministry in baptizing with the spirit, and the idolatry of such men, as are doting about shadows and carnal ordinances, and their ignorance of the spirits baptism (of which, water baptism was but a figure) discovered : and herein is shewed, that water baptism is neither of necessity to salvation, nor yet is it now practiced either by authority from heaven, or by any New-Testament-law that is in force upon believers, seeing the substance, and the end of things abolished is come and enjoyed, wherein the types, shadows and fingers, are ended : being a short return to a book entituled, A reply to a scandalous paper, subscribed by one Samuel Bradley, a Baptist teacher, as concerning a dispute that was between some of the people called Quakers, and some Baptists in South-warke. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [2], 14 p. Printed for Robert Wilson ..., London : 1660. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Signed at end: George Whitehead. eng Bradley, Samuel. -- Reply to a scandalous paper. Society of Friends -- Doctrines. Baptism -- Early works to 1800. A65838 R19780 (Wing W1892). civilwar no The authority of the true ministry, in baptizing with the spirit; and the idolatry of such men, as are doting about shadows and carnal ordin Whitehead, George 1660 9517 6 5 0 0 0 0 12 C The rate of 12 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Andrew Kuster Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Andrew Kuster Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE AUTHORITY OF THE True Ministry , In Baptizing with the SPIRIT ; and the IDOLATRY of such Men , as are doting about Shadows and Carnal Ordinances , and their Ignorance of the Sprits Baptism ( of which , Water Baptism was but a figure ) discovered . And herein is shewed , That Water Baptism is neither of necessity to Salvation , nor yet is it now Practiced either by Authority from Heaven , or by any New-Testament-Law that is in force upon Believers ; seeing the Substance , and the End of things abolished is come and enjoyed , wherein the Types , Shadows and Figures , are ended . Being a short Return to a Book Entituled , A Reply to a Scandalous Paper , subscribed by one Samuel Bradley , a Baptist Teacher , as concerning a dispute that was between some of the people called QVAKERS , and some BAPTISTS in South-warke . Act. 11. 15 , 16. And as I began to speak , the Holy Ghost fell on them , as on us at the beginning , then remembred I the Word of the Lord , how that he said , John indeed Baptised with Water , but Ye shall be Baptised with the Holy Ghost . 1 Pet. 3. 21. The like Figure whereunto , even Baptism doth also now save us ; not the putting away of the filth of the flesh , but the Answer of a good Conscience towards God , by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ , Ephes. 4. 5. There is one Lord , one Faith , one Baptism . LONDON , Printed for Robert Wilson , at the Sign of the Black-Spread-Eagle and Windmil in Martins l' Grand , 1660. The AUTHORITY of the True MINISTRY , In Baptising with the Spirit , and the IDOLATYR of such men , as are doting about Shadows , and Carnal Ordinances , &c. SUrely the said Samuel Bradley hath had time sufficient to have studied and brought forth far more sound matter than he hath done in his pretended REPLY , it being above one year and a half since the paper touching our dispute went forth ; when as his pretended REPLY to it came but lately abroad as to our hands , and exceeding darkly , as a false cover to his folly and Confusion , which so long since was discovered , and reproved by the Spirit of Truth in us ; and in this his pretended Reply , hath he often Reproached and belyed us , called QVAKERS ; even in a time , in which the foggy mist is risen out of the pit , to darken the Air , and the Sun also if it were possible , and the multitude of slanders and lyes is gone forth against us , and among them is this S. B. and his work found , which shall return back to perdition ; who hath sought to guild and smooth over his former cause , as if he thought we had either forgotten his former folly that he vented at the dispute , or else , that he did not intend that his work should come forth to the Light to be tryed , he sending it so hidenly in manuscript among his hearers : Therefore note his matter as followeth , and seriously read the Answer . Samuel Bradley the Baptist , to the Reader , sayes these words , viz. I must needs write my self less than the least of all Saints , and altogether unworthy to engage in any work for Jehovah ; much more altogether unworthy to engage in a work so weighty , and so such publique concernment as this is . Answ. Then its evident , that this S. B. is not in Gods work , but in his own work , he being altogether unworthy to engage in any work for JEHOVAH : so note that what he hath done , both in his opposing the people called QVAKERS , and in his writing against them , was not any work of JEHOVAH , but of his own ; done in darkness , and the enmity of the wicked one , against JEHOVAH , and his work . And what profit can you that are the hearers of the said Samuel Bradley reap from him , since he is altogether unworthy to engage in any work for JEHOVAH ? as also the sequel hereof will further discover ; and this S. B. professeth himself to be a poor labourer in the Vineyard of Christ , and in the service of the Lord ; and thus hath he played the hypocrite , and confounded himself ; for how can he be either a Labourer in the Vineyard of Christ , or a Servant of the Lord , when he is altogether unworthy to engage in any work for JEHOVAH ? So it s plainly manifest , that he is one of them that runs , & the Lord hath not sent him ; and one of the false prophets , that steal the words from their neighbours , and say , Thus saith the Lord , when God hath not spoken to them : But all the true Ministers and Labourers in Christ Vineyard were in JEHOVAHS work , which S. B. is altogether unworthy to engage in ; and therefore he had better been silent , and have done nothing than have uttered so many words without knowledg as he hath done ; if he had been silent , his folly had not so much appeared as it now doth . S. B. saith , I shall count it a mercy , that God hath given me such a fit opportunity to contend for the faith that was once delivered by Christ . Ans. In this hast thou S. B. spoken falsly ; for to contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints , is a work for JEHOVAH , but thou art altogether unworthy to engage in any work for him , as thou hast Confessed . S. B. Those people who are known by the name of QVAKERS , undertook to prove two things , 1st . That the Disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ were Commanded to Baptise with the Spirit . 2d . They undertook to prove that New Testament-Ordinances were abolished . Answ. As for the former of these assertions upon the QVAKERS , ( so called ) we did say something in order to it , ( & proved it also . ) viz. That the Disciples of Christ were in his work , and had power given them to Baptise people into the Name of the Father , Son , & Holy Ghost , which was with the Spirit , as hereafter is further discovered : And as for the latter of them , its exceeding false ; for we never affirmed that New Testament-Ordinances were abolished , nor undertook to prove it ; but we opposed the Baptists affirming water Baptism , to be in force as a New Testament-Ordinance , from Mat. 28. 19. when there is no water mentioned , but Baptising them into the Name of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , ( as it is in the Greek {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} into the name ) which Name , Baptising or plunging people in outward water , doth not Baptise men into ; for the outward baptism was but a figure of the inward baptism , ( and so had relation to the Law , and that state under it , which had the Figures and Shadows ) and is not by these Baptists proved a New Testament-Ordinance , as in force by any New Testament Law ; for New Testament-Ordinances , as Preaching , Praying , Baptising into the Name and Body of Christ , and other Ordinances which the Spirit of Christ leads to , we own , and are in the Life and Practise of them , as Christ hath called us . S. B. Water Baptism is an Ordinance of Christ still in force , and to continue till the second coming , and Glorious Appearing of our Lord Jesus . Answ. Then in his pleading for Water Baptism , to continue till the end of the World ( according to his account ) he hath denyed that the Saints are yet come to the second coming of Christ to Salvation : wherein he hath discovered his ignorance , of Christs appearance and Salvation , and so would keep the Saints under shadows , and from the Substance all their life time : When as the coming of Christ in the flesh , ( wherein he was offered to bear the Sins of many , Heb. 9. 28. ) was one coming ; and his appearance in Spirit , to save his people from sin , is another coming , which they that truly looked for did receive ; and they that yet have that his coming to look for , and waite for it , he shall so appear to their Salvation . Sam. Bradley saith of the QVAKERS , The first thing they mention , as the Captain General of their manifold untruths , that Sam. Bradly a Baptist Teacher affirmed , That the Baptism of the Spirit was Metaphorically spoken of in that place , 1 Cor. 12. 13. and that the baptism of water was intended . To which I say , herein hath he wronged our words , and falsified our sayings ; for we said , that S. B. affirmed , touching 1 Cor. 12. 13. That the baptism of the Spirit ( there spoken of ) was metaphorical , but the baptism of water was intended . And S. B. then Replies thus , viz. I did not , nor do not affirm , that the Baptism of the Spirit was metaphorically spoken of in 1 Cor. 12. 13. And that the baptism of water was there intended : Therefore , I would advise these men for to learn to speak the Truth . Answ. We have affirmed no untruth against thee S. B. for what we said of thee in that particular mentioned , was , that thou saidst that the Baptism of the Spirit was metaphorical , but the baptism of water was intended : and this is notoriously known by many that thou affirmedst it upon our urging that 1 Cor. 12. 13. and one of thy brethren sought to vindicate thee in it , when thou wast baffled about it , as counting that the Apostle spoke metaphorically in that 1 Cor. 12. about the body and the members , ( which was nothing to the purpose ) also , it was several times upon thy assertion asked thee , What the Baptism of the Spirit was a Metaphor or a Figure of , if it was Metaphorical as thou saidst ? about which thy mouth was plainly stopt , & it was so often in the Meeting cast upon thee ; that thou discovers an exceeding impudent lying spirit in thee , now to deny it , and to say , that what we said of thee about it is altogether untrue , as thou sayest : About which I could produce several witnesses , who know that thou hast spoken absolute falshood in this thing ; and let the Reader mark thy silly shuffling in this thing , thou sayest , Thou didst not , neither dost affirm , that the baptism of the Spirit was metaphorically spoken of in that place , 1 Cor. 12. 13. which implyes then , that thou hast counted it metaphorical in some other place , though not in that place ; but where ever any true Minister counted the Spirits baptism metaphorical , and water baptism intended , that thou hast not shewn so its evident , that in thy blindnesse thou hast set water baptism , above the baptism of the Spirit ; and so hast made an Idoll of it , as also doth appear , where thou sayest thus , viz. S. B. I did say the Apostle in Ephes. 4. Spake of one Lord , one Faith , and one Baptism ; which these men brought in opposition to water baptism ; to it I made this Answer , thou sayest , This is not exclusive ; for there be Lords many , as you may see 1 Cor. 8. 5. And yet but one Lord Jesus , and we read of divers Baptismes , as of affliction , Luk. 12. 50. 2dly , The Baptism of the Spirit , which is spoken of in Acts 2. 3dly , The Baptism of water , as in Acts 8. and 10. and yet there is but one properly so called , to wit that of water : Also thou sayst , we instance three Baptismes in Scripture , and prove one properly so called . Ans. If there be so many Baptismes , and yet but one propely called baptism , which is the Baptism of water ; then from this it follows that the baptism of the Spirit , or the baptism by which the Saints were saved , was not properly called Baptism ; and this would charge the Apostles with speaking improperly , or falsly , when they spoke of the Baptism by which they were saved , or of their being all baptised by one Spirit into one Body And thus this said Baptist's falshood and folly appears , who here also counteth the one Baptism spoken of in Eph. 4. the Baptism of water ; and so hath shut out the baptism of the Spirit , as not properly called Baptism , and Idollatrously hath set water baptism above it ; when as the baptism of the Spirit was that which water baptism did but shadow or figure forth ; for by one Spirit were the Saints baptised into the body of Christ , which the baptism of outward water doth not baptise any into ; for such as uphold water baptism now are in the strife , and much in devision , when as they who are baptised into the body of Christ are in unity . Though thus far we say of water baptism , that in its time it was a Command from heaven to John , which was in the time of the Law , and the least in the Kingdome was greater than John , who decreased ; and in the time of that baptismes decreasing , it was used by some of the Apostles in their freedome , for the sake of some that were weak or young in the truth , and not wholly redeemed out of the state that such carnall or weak ordinances related to , which were upheld in the time of the Churches infancy : But when the carnall minds of some ran into these outward things , and something got up in the minds of the Corinthians to lead them too much to stick in them , the Apostle Paul tells them , That Christ sent him not to baptise , but to preach the Gospel , 1 Cor. 1. 17. and yet Pauls Commission was as large as any of the Apostles was , for he was not behinde the very chief Apostles , and shunned not to declare all the councell of God Act. 20. 27. And whereas S. Bradley instanceth as his paralel , That there be Lords many , and yet but one Lord Jesus , for the divers Baptismes he speaks of , as of affliction , the baptism of the Spirit , the baptism of water , and yet but one properly so called , to wit that of water . To this I say , herein hath he discovered his gross darknesse , and false comparison which will not hold paralel ; for it 's as if he had said there be Lords many , and Gods many , yet to us but one true God ; and so there are many baptismes , as the baptism of affliction , the baptism of the Spirit , and the baptism of water ; yet to us there is but one true baptism , to wit the baptism of water ; and the other , as that of affliction , and the baptism of the Spirit are false baptismes , and not properly so called : For the many Gods and many Lords ( or that are called Gods ) are in the world , where the false Gods are . And thus S. B's . folly and Idolatrous Spirit is seen in his so confusedly setting up water baptism above the baptism of the Spirit , and so he is not at all fit for Jehovah's work indeed . S. B. Saith . The ordinance of water baptism , was Commanded to be performed in so sollemne a manner , as no ordinance in all the new Testament ; In the Name of the Father , Son and holy Ghost ; which notes the great honour Christ puts upon this ordinance . Answ. I tell you this Baptist doth make an Idoll of water baptism , when he hath said all he can ; for he hath here set it above all the ordinances of the New Testament , but he hath apparently in this preached false doctrine ; for preaching the Gospel , was an ordinance of the New Testament , and it was done in the Name of the Father , Son and holy Ghost , as well as baptising ; seeing the Disciples were commanded to teach ( or disciple ) all Nations baptising them into the Name of the Father , Son and holy Ghost : so that Teaching was commanded to be done in as sollemn a manner as Baptizing , for both Teaching and Baptizing into the Name of the Father , &c. were performed by the power of God , which the Disciples of Christ were indued with , and which wrought by them , who were made instruments in that work of baptizing into the Name of God and Christ , &c. And whereas I charged S. B. and his brethren with being ignorant of the baptism of the Spirit , he to prove that he is not ignorant of that baptism , answers thus , viz. S. B. I do demand what they mean by the baptism of the Spirit , &c. If by the baptism of the Spirit , they mean the Spirit that doth bear witnesse that we are the Sons of God , we do experinence it , and are not ignorant of it . Ans. What is this man but ignorant of the baptism of the Spirit , when you may see here he cannot distinguish between the Spirit and the baptism of it ? for if by the baptism of the Spirit , we mean the Spirit that doth bear witness , they do experience it , he saith . Did you ever hear such a doctrine before , that the baptism of the Spirit is the Spirit ? as if he had said , the work that is wrought is the worker of it : and thus whilst they are doting about outward shadowes and signes , they are confounded and blinded , that they see not the substance , nor understand the work of the Spirit , which baptizeth into Christ , and into his Name , which is his Word , by which salvation comes ; which is a working of men into the power and life , to which they are discipled , and led in the preaching of the Gospell . S. B. — The gift of tongues is called in Scripture the baptizm of the Spirit , see Act. 1. 5. again he saith , we do not deny , but acknowledge that we are baptized by one Spirit into one body . Ans. In this he hath rested the scripture , and spoken falsly ; for the gift of tongues is not called the baptism of the Spirit , but the gift of it ; now the baptism of the Spirit was a work of it , by which the Saints were all baptised into one body , many of whom had not the gift of tongues , for it was onely a proper gift to some : and as for the baptists saying they are all baptized by one Spirit into one body , and yet hath called the gift to tongues the baptism of the Spirit , which he hath acknowledged they are ignorant of : herein he would make two baptismes of the Spirit , when as the Apostle said , there is one Faith , and one Baptisme Eph. 4. 5. and thus he sheweth his ignorance of the baptism of the Spirit , and so is not worthy to engage in any work for JEHOVAH , as he hath confessed . S. B. — We need not require an immediate Call or Authorithy from heaven to preach and baptize , in as much as we have a sufficient call or warrant granted us by Christ himselfe on earth , which doth plainly appeare in the Commission it self , the Disciples being Commissioned , &c. Answ. What falshood and confusion is here ? For both the Papists and the hireling Priests , and others ( whom the Baptists themselves have declared against ) do pretend as much for their call to preach and baptize as this baptist hath done ; who hath pretended the Commission which the Disciples of Christ had , to be his warrant or call to preach , and baptize : when as he never had any immediate Call or Authority from heaven to either ( and so he never had any Call or Authority from God , either to preach or baptize : Which is like as if that the false Prophets had said the Commission which the true Prophets had to preach , did Authorize and warrant them to preach also ; What deceiver cannot get such a deceitfull cloak as this ? so it 's evident that this S. Bradley is one of these deceivers who runs , and the Lord never sent him , and speaks when the Lord hath not spoken to him ; and that commission , Mat. 28. which the Disciples of Christ received from him , was given by Authority from heaven ( upon which this S. B. doth so much build and falsly argue ) and it doth not warrant them to baptize with water neither , for it was to baptize into the Name of the Father , Son and holy Ghost , which Name many do professe in words , who are yet out of it as this Baptist is . And whereas I said to these Baptists , that they practise baptism by immitation , and carnall tradition , without a command from Christs mouth for it : To this S. B. Replies in these words , viz. S. B. Let those men put a stop unto their lying tongues , for fear vengeance suffer them not to live , &c. I demand then the meaning of these pretious words that drop out of the sweet lips of our Lord Jesus in the Commission that he gave unto his Disciples , Go teach all Nations , baptizing them , &c. Answ. Oh! how Ignorant and full of gross darkness it self art thou S. Bradley ? Surely thou mayest read these words to the Disciples ( in the Scripture ) Go teach all Nations , baptizing them , and yet never hadst any command from Christs mouth for to baptize with water , as the Jewes read the Scriptures without , who had neither heard the voice of God at any time nor seen his shape and such art thou , who hast neither any immediate Call or Authority from Heaven to preach , and , therefore hast neither Call nor Authority from God , either to Preach or Baptize , ( and yet thou wouldest be counted a Minister of Christ ) so its time for thee to stop thy mouth , for thou art one of them who are presumptuous , who take upon them to speak in the name of the Lord , whom he hath not sent , nor commanded ; and such God will cut off , Deut. 18. 20. S. B. — I do affirm that the Baptism spoken of in the Commission in the 28. of Matthew and the 16. of Mark , is the Baptizm of Water , and for proof , S. B. Argues thus , — It is not the Baptizm of the Spirit , because this Baptism is Commanded , but the Baptizm of the Spirit was never Commanded , nor was it any mans sin , not so to be baptized , therefore it cannot be meant the Baptizm of the Spirit , and to this S. B. adds this Lye That we did not answer at al to this Argument . Ans. This Argument is both False and Grounded upon a falshood , and in it he hath confuted himselfe , for mark , that he hath owned , That they lay no stress for Salvation upon water Baptizm , neither is it of necessity unto Salvation , But that Baptism which Christ Commanded in Mat. 28. and Mark 16. is of necessity unto Salvation ; for by it they were to Baptize men into the Name of the Father , Son and holy Ghost : Now without being Baptized into this Name a man cannot be saved , for by no other Name under heaven comes Salvation , but by the Name of Jesus ; who is a Saviour of the people from their sins , Mat. 1. 21. Act. 4. 12. and Christ said , he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved , Mark . 16. 16. So that there is stress or necessity upon this Baptism which Christ commanded for Salvation ; but so is there not upon water baptism as these Baptists confesse ; and therefore it was not water baptism but the spirituall baptism , which was an effect of the Gospell which is the power of God , which the Disciples preached ; for thereby they turned people from Darknesse to Light , and from the Power of Sathan unto God , which is known in the Baptism of the Spirit : And the Baptism by which the Saints were saved , was not the putting away of the filth of the flesh , but the answer of a good Conscience , 1 Pet. 3. 21. And whereas he saith That it was not any mans sin not to be baptized with the Spirit , in this he hath spoken falsly ; for when men resist the Spirit of God , and refuse to be led or baptized by it , when it is tendred to them ; then it is their sin , as it was the Lawyers sin to frustrate the Councell of God within themselves , not being baptized of John when his Baptism was ( in its time ) a Command from heaven , much more is it a sin in men now to resist the spirit of God , and thereby to reject it's baptism . S. B. If any should be so weak to say this baptism here ( viz. in Mat. 28. ) is meant the baptism of the Spirit ; I demand once more of them to shew me when and where the Disciples did obey this Command . Answ. They did obey it , when they Discipled and Baptised men into the Name of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost ; when they Ministred the Spirit , and turned men from darkness to light ; and a Testimony of this was manifest , when the Holy Ghost fell on them that heard the Disciples Preach ; who were Instruments with whom God wrought , when they had received power from on high , and they were sent into the world , as Christ was sent into the world , Joh. 17. 18. who baptised with Fire and with the Holy Ghost ; and in the same Power and Spirit they went forth , Preaching and Baptising people into the Word of God , which is the Name of Christ , Rev. 19. 13. And moreover Peter said , as I began to speak the Holy Ghost fell on them , as on us at the beginning , then Remembered I the Word of the Lord , how that he said , John indeed baptised with water , but ye shall be baptised with the Holy Ghost , Acts 11. 16. which doth plainly evidence , That that Power or Holy Ghost , accompanied the Disciples Ministry , that did so baptise men ( which was the end of Johns Baptism ) in which work , the True Ministers were Instruments , not of themselves , but by Christ the power of God in them ; so that their Gospel went forth in Spirit and in Power . S. B. We can prove that some were baptized with water after they had received the Holy Ghost , Acts 10. 46. And if these poor Creatures were not hardned in their Apostacy , how might such a plain example or instance as this ingage them unto obedience . Answ. How poorly do these Baptists Argue for Water Baptism to Continue ? who having denyed any immediate Call or Authority from Heaven , either to Preach or Baptise , as this Baptist hath done , now would make an Example a Law , to engage us to be baptised ( when as there are many Examples that are no Lawes ) so that you may see these Baptists do not baptise by any Authority from Heaven , and so serve not in the newness of the Spirit , but meerly Act by Tradition , and their Carnal Imitations without ; and then why do they not as well Circumcise , keep the Passover , Purify in the Temple , all abstein from Blood and things strangled , and command men to keep the Law , and shave their Heads , & c ? For there are as plain examples for the observing and doing these things from some of the Apostles Command and example , ( after that baptising with water was spoken of Acts 10. 46. ) see , Acts 15. 2 , 6 , 7 , 20 , & 16. 3. & 18. 18. & 21. 24 , 25 , & 24. 18. and the Apostles example of observing these things for a time , hinders them not from ending in Christ , as S. B. falsly intimates that water baptism ends not in Christ , because it was practised after his Assention ; in like manner might he as well have pleaded for Circumcision , outward offerings , purifying in the Temple , & the like to continue because they were practised after Christs Assention : But as people ( who had a zeal for these outward Figures ) grew into the Substance and Life wherein they ended , that they were able to bear the denying of them ; the Apostles Preached the end of them , and refused to be in bondage to them again . S. B. There be two things to be considered . 1st . That he must be a Teaching Disciple . 2d ▪ No more is required but a Teaching Disciple . Answ. Which is all one , as if he had said , the two things required , is ▪ 1st . a Teaching Disciple , and 2d ▪ a Teaching Disciple , ( what no●cense is here ? ) this is but one thing . And again , if no more be required but a Teaching Disciple , then it is not required that a Disciple should baptise with water : and thus he throws all his other Doctrines for the continuing of water baptism in the dust and confounds himself . S. B. Let these men know that water Baptism is a lively Representation of the Death , Burial , and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus . Answ. Where provest thou that S. B ? this is sure an Imagination of thy own ; for how can your plunging people in water be a lively Representation of the Death , Burial , and Resurrection of Christ ? sure you are not so long dead in the water when you are plunged in it as Christ was dead as concerning the flesh , who was raised the third day by the Power of the Father ; and it is that power that baptised his people into his death , and raiseth them up in the likeness of his Resurrection , and not outward water : touching which , that which this S. B. hath affirmed , it is as foolish as a Baptist Teacher's affirming to me , that the Baptism of water did baptise men into the death of Christ . Again , if what thou sayest were granted ( which it is not ) that which you Baptists do so greatly strive for , in your contending so hard for water baptism , ( which you trake such an Idoll of ) is but to bring people into a Representation of things ; which while there minds stick in that , they come short of the Power and Life , whereby the one baptisms into the body is known of , which the outward baptismes at the most were but shaddows or figures , which were to end in the Substance . S. B. Where did the Disciples of Christ give the Spirit unto any , seeing it was the work of Christ alone to baptise with the Spirit ? Answ. In Answer to this I alledged , John 14. 12. He that believeth on me , the works that I do , he shall do also , and greater works than these , saith Christ ; and Gal. 3. 3 , 5. to prove that the Disciples Ministred the Spirit , who were Ministers of the Spirit , to this the Baptist Replyes in these words , viz. S. B. I humbly conceive that some Scriptures are not to be taken litterally as they are laid down , as for instance , in the 13. verse of this Chapter , it is said , That whatsoever ye ask the Father in my Name , that will I do ; yet God intends to give us the answer of no Prayer , but that prayer that comes up according to his will . Answ. If Christs Words in John 14. 12 , 13. be not to be taken as they are laid down , as this Baptist plainly Intimates ; then from this it follows , that Christ spoke not right or true , and therefore this S. B. with his own conception ( who is but in his conceivings ) would amend or correct what Christ hath said ; and yet he hath no Authority from Heaven for it : Who is it that will believe his deceit and absurdity herein ? again , his Instancing Christs saying , Whatsoever ye ask the Father in my Name , that will I do , as not to be taken as it is laid down , and for his proof , saying , that God intends to give us the Answer of no Prayer , but the Prayer that 's according to his will : This also Implyes , that Christ spoke not truly , as if something the Disciples might ask in his Name , which was not according to the will of God , and which was not to be answered ; when as ▪ it was the Disciples of Christ that asked in his Name , and they asking in that Name , they asked in the Word of God , Rev. 19. and this could not be contrary to the will of God . Again the Baptist ( to prove that Christs words in John 14. 12. are not to be taken as they are laid down ) saith . S. B. Christ speaks generally , he that believeth on me , the works that I do , he shall do , and greater works than these ; this cannot be understood in this sense , that these men bring it for because there be some works that Christ did , as he was the only Son of God , which we cannot do ; Christ did perfect and compleat the work of Redemption for us by his death , and Sufferings upon the Cross . Rep. To this I say , what a silly shift is this , as also what falsehood is in it ? for Christ said these words , in John 14. 12. ( That he that believeth on him should do the works that he did ) before he suffered on the Cross ; and how was the work of Redemption perfected or compleated by that his suffering , for thee S. B. and such as thou art , when you are yet in bondage to your sinnes and to the Spirit of delusion , which leads you to pervert the Scriptures , as thou hast done ? But hadst thou proved that Christs work of baptising with the Spirit ( or any work tending to lead to it ) was by Christ excepted , as not to be done by them that believed on him , then thou hadst done what thou aimedst at , and desired to do ; but that thou couldest not do , seeing thy folly is so greatly manifest already in thy assaying it . S. B. If water baptism be an Indifferent thing , it may be done , or it may be left undone . Answ. What is it else but an indifferent thing , when there is no stress for Salvation laid upon it , neither is it of necessity to Salvation as these Baptists Confess ? And how can water baptism be of absolute necessity to obedience , as this Baptist affirms , when he cannot produce any express Law , or Commission in force for it ? for where there is no Law , there is no Transgression ; and Paul , who was not behind the very cheif Apostles , whose Commission extended as far as theirs , He was not sent by Christ to baptise ; but to Preach the Gospel . S. B. If the Church of Ephesus , was a Church of Christ in Gospel order , than they were baptised with water , and we must be plunged or dipped in outward water , if we do intend to walk according to the Rule of Christ , and the Pattern of his House . Answ. So then this Baptist Judgeth all to be out of the Church of Christ , and out of the Gospel Order , and out of the Rule of Christ , who are not plunged or dipped in outward water : and thus he owns none to be of the Church of Christ , or in Gospel Order , but a company of Baptists , and yet they lay no stress for Salvation upon their water baptism , so that men may be saved without it : Now then the People of God that are saved , who are not plunged or dipped in outward water , hath this Baptist judged to be none of the Church of Christ , nor in Gospel Order ; as if the Gospel Order consisted in peoples being plunged or dipped in outward water ; or as if that were the way to bring them into the Church of Christ , and yet men may be saved without it . Oh! what confusion and darkness hath this Baptist about this uttered ? And as for S. B's . accusing us , with casting durt in the Face of Christ ( as he did ) and to be led into a desperate Condition , for to fly in the very face of God , in his Holy appointments . To this I say , besides the falsehood of these two charges upon us , what absurdity is intimated in them ? which is as if our opposing their baptising with water , ( which they have no Authority from Heaven for ) were a flying in the very face of God ; as if the face of God were in water baptism , which he counts the Holy Appointment ; wherein he shewes that he never saw the Face of God : for as the Lord is departed from water baptism , since it was practised in mens wills without any Authority from God , and it hath been , and is made an Idoll of , neither the Face of God , nor his Power is seen in it ; and where the Face of God is seen , there is a further State enjoyed , then that state which the outward Figures Related to ; for there the thing that was figured forth is enjoyed , but the Face of God they see not , who are seeking it in Carnal or Shaddowy things , for it is spiritually discerned with a Spiritual eye . And whereas Sam. Bradley saith , They dare not Administer the Baptism of water unto any as fit Subjects of such a blessed ordinance as that is , till they can perceive that they have , and enjoy the Spirit of Adoption . To this I say , how doth this Assertion agree with some of these Baptists , saying , ( at the dispute as this S. B. hath also related ) That for people to make a visible confession of their faith , is enough to entitle unto water baptism ? When as many can make such a confession of their faith , who enjoy not the Spirit of Adoption , being out of that Spirit : And thus these Baptists Confound themselves , one while saying that men must have and enjoy the Spirit of Adoption , before they be fit Subjects for water baptism ; another while saying that a visible confession of faith is enough to entitle unto water baptism . Which is like the Baptists saying , that men must Repent , and be baptized with water , that they may receive the holy Ghost ; and for it they instance Act. 2. 38. and Act. 8. 16. Another while saying they dare not admit people to water baptism , until they can perceive they have the holy Ghost or Spirit of Adoption ; and for that instancing Act. 10. 47 and thus we see their confusion and uncertainty , which is like the Baptists , one sort of them pleading for water baptism from John's baptizing ; others of them deny to plead for it from John's Baptism , but set their baptism above John's , saying , as that they do it by the example of Christ's Disciples baptizing , Joh. 3. 22. and 4. 2. And so they call their's Christ's baptism ; when as John's baptizing with water , and the Disciples baptizing with water , Joh. 3. was of one Nature or Kind ; and as it was a figure of the inward baptism , so it had Relation to the State that was under the Law , before the Adoption of Sons was attained to , wherein the Redemption from the weak Elements which the world is in , is known : And in the time of John's Administring water baptism , Christ had not fulfilled his Testimony upon Earth through suffering , by which he blotted out the Hand-writing of Ordinances , and Nailed it to his Cross , that one new man in him , and the Peace might be made which could not be done by John's Baptism , nor such Types , Figures , and Shadowes ; for they being imposed since the Transgression entred , and being changeable , they do not reach the Seed ( which must inherit the Peace and the Promises ) but the changeable or earthly part in man which they have Relation to . And did not all Types Figures , and Shadows end in Christ the substance ? Again , how should these Baptists perceive who do enjoy the Spirit of Adoption , when they have no immediate Call or Authority from heaven to Preach and Baptize according to S. Bradley's confession ? From which it follows , that these Baptists who have no Authority from Heaven to Teach or Baptize , ( and who are altogether unworthy to engage in any work for Jehovah , as S. B. is ) they do set themselves to be Teachers and Baptizers of such as they say have the Spirit of Adoption ; as if he had said , they that have not the Spirit or Authority from heaven , must be Teachers and Ministers to them , who have the Spirit or Authority from Heaven : and so in these things all may see their blindness , and what a Babel they have Builded in their Confusion . And now Samuel Bradley , to Thee I say , seeing that Thou art altogether unworthy to engage in any work for Jehovah ; and hast shewed thy ignorance so much , touching the baptism of the Spirit , having counted it Metaphoricall , and hast set water baptism so much above it , that thou hast accounted no baptism properly so called , but that of water , and hast not any Call , nor Authority from Heaven to Preach or Baptize : it 's high time for thee to be silent , and proceed no longer in thy folly , and intruding into things which thou hast not seen , and cease from slandering us , as thou hast done in many things which I have upon Record ; as also much more of thy confusion , falshoods , and absurdities , I have herein omitted to mention . Here are Samuel Bradley's Arguments , ( which he hath made great account of , ) for the continuance of water Baptism ; and an Answer to them . Argu. 1. WHatsoever the Apostles were Commanded , that they did practise ; but they were commanded to baptize with water , and therefore they did practise it . Answ. The Minor proposition of this Argument being grounded upon his supposed assertion , that it was water baptism that Christ commanded , in Mat. 28. Mark 16. It s already confuted ; and however it being Universall , its false ; for Paul who was one of the chiefe Apostles , was not sent to baptize with water , but to preach the Gospell . Argu. 2. That which was commanded by Jesus Christ , the great Prophet of the New Testament , and never repealed by him , is still in force , and to continue ; but water baptism never repealed by him , is still in force , and to continue ; but water baptism the Lords Supper , with the rest of the institutions of Christ , were commanded by Christ , and never repealed by him ; therefore they are still in force , and to continue . Ans. I deny the minor proposition again , so far as it relates to water baptism , for where provest thou by Scripture that water baptism was commanded by Christ , and never repealed by him ; certainly if it had been so commanded , and never repealed by Christ , but still in force , it would have been in force by the same command upon the Apostle Paul ; but he saith the contrary 1 Cor. 1. Argu. 3. As long as teaching is in force , and to continue , so long is baptism in force ; but that teaching is in force ; and to continue to the end of the world all men will easily grant : therefore baptism , and all the rest of the Appointments of Christ , the Scrpture saith expressely they are to continue to the end of the world , Mat. 28. 20. Answ. The Major proposition of this Argument is false , as the baptism of water is intended in it to be in force , as long as teaching ; for teaching was of force , where that baptism was not , as Paul was a witness ; who was sent to the one , not to the other ; also Teaching is of force to many who are not plunged in outward water , and by true teaching are converted to Christ , when there is no stresse for Salvation upon water baptism , neither is it of necessity to Salvation , as S. B : hath confessed : And where he concludes that baptism , and all the rest of the Appointments of Christ , are in force , and to continue to the end of the World , and for proof saith , that the Scripture saith expressly they are to continue to the end of the world , and quotes Matth. 28. and 20. I say this conclusion is as false as the major , and herein hath he perverted the Scripture , Math. 28. 20. For neither doth it expressely say that teaching and baptizing with water , are to continue to the end of the world , nor yet doth it prove water baptism a command of Christ to his Disciples ▪ But he saith , Loe I am with you alway , even unto the end of the world : And not that water baptism is to continue unto the end of the world . And as for the rest of thy Arguments for the continuance of water baptism , which are grounded upon thy asserting , that it was water baptism that Christ Commanded , in Mat. 28. and Mark 16. They are herein confuted , in that the ground of them is overthrown . Here follows some Reasons or Arguments relating to the aforesaid Answer , to prove that in the Commission which Christ gave to his Disciples , in Mat. 28. 19. Mark 16. 16. Water baptism was not intended , but the baptism of the Spirit . 1. If the baptism which Christ commanded in Mat. 28. 19. and Mark . 16. 16. was a Baptism without which a man cannot be saved , then it was not the baptism of outward water ( for water baptism is not of necessity to Salvation , neither is there any stresse of Salvation laid upon it , ) But it was that baptism without which men cannot be saved ; which Christ commanded , Mat 28. Mark 16. Therefore not water baptism . I prove the Minor proposition thus , No man can be saved without being baptized into the Name of God , and his Son Christ Jesus ; for his Name is the Word of God , by which Salvation comes , and by no other Name ; and the Lord is one , and his Name one , and it was into this Name that the Disciples were Commanded to baptize people . 2. He that believeth and is baptized , shall be saved , Mark 16. 16. Which implyes that this Baptism which Christ commanded is of necessity to Salvation ; but so is not water baptism ; for the Saints were saved by that Baptism which was not the putting away of the filth of the flesh , but the Answer of a Good Conscience , 1. Pet. 3. 21. Therefore it was not water baptism which Christ Commanded in Mat. 28. and Mark . 16. 3. If the Apostle Paul had as large a Commission given him by Christ , as any of the Apostles had ; then the commission which Christ gave to the Disciples Mat. 28. was not enjoyning them to baptize with water ; But Paul had as large a Commission as any of the Apostles had ( for he was not behind the very chiefe Apostles ) Therefore that Commission in Mat. 28. did not enjoyn the Disciples to baptize with water . As both these propositions are clear according to Scripture ; so the conclusion of each is as clear from Paul's own words , where he absolutely doth declare , That Christ sent him not to baptize , but to preach the Gospell ( notwitstanding he had baptized some as before he mentioned ) And Paul doth not say as the Baptist falsly intimates , that baptizing was some of Paul's work that he was sent to , but preaching the chiefe , as if he had said : Paul was not onely sent by Christ to baptize , but also to preach , which would render Paul's words , in 1 Cor. 1. 17. both false and defective . And now you , whose hearts are simple , who are yet held in Bondage under outward Shadows , and Figures ; which do decrease , wax old , and have an end ; To you I say come to the Light of Christ in you , and muddle no more in the dark , nor dote any longer about Shadows , and Elementary Things ; neither be ye in bondage to men , nor to their Doctrines , and Sleights , which tend to keep you in Shadows from the substance ; for it was the Jews without , whose minds stuck in the Figures and Shadows , many of whom came so far as the baptism of John , who decreased , and yet they stumbled at Christ the Substance : but now he is not a Jew , that is one outward , but he is a Jew , that is one inward : and so it 's not the outward Circumcision , nor the outward baptism that availeth any thing to Salvation , but a New Creature . So wait you in the Light of the Lord in you , that with it you may be led unto Christ , who is the Substance ; and the one Bread , which he that careth of , shall live for ever ; and receiving Christ , you come to feel the water of Life in you , and the one Baptism of the Spirit : of which things , the outward bread and the outward water , were but Figures , when as he that believeth , as the Scripture saith , ( to wit in the Light of Christ , Joh. 12. 26. ) Out of his belly shall flow Rivers of the water of Life , and he shall possess the end of the things abollished , and have a part in God , who is Light , by whom the vail comes to be destroyed , and the shadowy part removed , that the Shadows fly away , and the Lord God is become the Light and the Life of his people , and from his Throne comes the water of Life which waters his holy City , where the enduring substance is enjoyed . From a witnesse of that substance , who waits for the Redemption of the Captivated Seed : George Whitehead . The End 
A65841	----	A brief answer to F. Bugg's Brief reply to the considerations humbly offered by the people call'd Quakers relating to the bill for restraining the licentiousness of the press. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1701 Approx. 10 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 4 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65841 Wing W1895A ESTC T87022 99834490 99834490 38991 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65841) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 38991) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2086:10) A brief answer to F. Bugg's Brief reply to the considerations humbly offered by the people call'd Quakers relating to the bill for restraining the licentiousness of the press. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 3,[1]p. s.n., [London?, 1701?] Signed: "By G. Whitehead, and others concerned". Reproduction of the original in the Harvard University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Brief Answer to F. Bugg's Brief Reply to the Considerations Humbly Offered by the People call'd Quakers , Relating to the Bill for Restraining the Licentiousness of the Press . IT has been the known Practice of the said F. B. of late Years , not only to Buisy himself to Interrupt our Applications to the Parliament , by his Abusive Pamphlets , but now strives to have us debarred of the Liberty of the Press , that he may more easily Misrepresent our Christian Profession , and Calumniate us without Detection , as appears in his said pretended Reply ; and therefore the more Necessity that we ( the said People ) should not be debarred of the Press for our Just Defence , according to Holy Scripture , that we may not be Defamed ( in our Christian Reputation ) as Seditious or Blasphemous . According to his usual Method , he begins with a perverted Quotation upon our Considerations , thus , viz. [ Yet , say they , to Limit the Press , we conceive Vnsafe . ] Instead of [ to Limit Religious Books to a License , &c. ] Thus he stumbles at the Threshold , and Imposes on the Reader . And as false it is , That the Quakers are Guilty of Printing and Publishing Seditious and Scandalous Pamphlets ; and as unjustly Inferred , that therefore a Restraint on them they think Vnsafe . 1. Of Kingly Government , about Earthly Kings , &c. he gives Curtailed and Broken Quotations , but not the Dates of the several Papers , he mentions , which ( however Perverted ) we take the General Import thereof to mean , That our Lord Jesus Christ is King over true Christians Consciences , and his own Spiritual Kingdom ( which is not of this World ) and not Earthly or Persecuting Kings , as are mention'd . 2. Of Parliaments ; We find not F. Howgill fairly Quoted , but grossly Abused , by leaving out what he saith for the good Intention of Parliaments . And is it reasonable we should Answer for the Opinion of the Council of Officers ( against the House of Lords ) in the Common-wealths days , or what any one told them thereof ? * Or is it a good Argument , that because the Corruption and Bad Lives of Earthly Kings and Governments , as also their Ends , are upon Record both in History and Sacred Writ , that therefore all such History and Writings ( or Citations out of them ) are Seditious ? Or because some have Writ against the Oppression of former Persecuting Kings and Parliaments , were it a good Inference that therefore the Quakers ought not to have Liberty of the Press to Defend their Religious Perswasion , Christian Profession or Innocency ? when they have not the least Design of Sedition or Scandal against the Civil Government , or Constitution of Parliaments ; tho' to tell of Respect of Persons , and not Equality in Chosing Members , be Quoted as Seditious , yet it is no new thing ; Undue and Partial Elections not unknown to Parliaments , who have Endeavoured to Reform the same . 3. Of the Holy Trinity ; Thereby being meant , that , in the Deity , there are Three Bearing Witness in Heaven , the Father , the Word , and the Spirit , i. e. the Father , the Son , and the Holy Ghost , which are One God Blessed for ever , the Scripture Terms thereof are not Questioned , but owned by the People called Quakers , * what Disputes or Reflections soever have been ( about Vnscriptural Terms and Distinctions ) they were never by any of us applied or intended against the Blessed Deity or Divinity of Father , Son , or Holy Ghost . 4. Of Christ our Blessed Lord , the Eternal Son , or Word of God , his Body that Dyed , is called in Scripture the Body of Jesus ; and 't is said he Suffered and was put to Death in the Flesh , 1 Pet. 3. 18. Not in his Divine Nature , for that never Dyed . This was W. P's . Sense , * That the True Ministers do not Preach Christ without Only , as he is in Heaven ( and Glory ) above , but also as he is in Men's Hearts , is an Undeniable Christian Doctrine . The Word Only being omitted ( in one Edition of William Smith's Primmar ) is made an Accusation against us ( as if we denied Jesus to be Christ ) tho' the same Word Only be inserted in his Works in the same place . Thus unfair is this Adversary . 5. Concerning the Holy Scriptures . We Hope our preferring Christ the Word , and his Spirit to the Letter of the Scripture , and yet owning the Holy Scriptures to be given by Divine Inspiration , and preferring them before all other Books , may not be Offensive , or render us Uncapable of the Liberty of the Press , or of our Consciences . If one should Argue thus against us , Some of your Antient Friends Writings are Perverted and Misconstrued , ( and thereby made Offensive ) therefore you must Write no more : Or , some of you have spoken something amiss , or that Offends Vs , therefore you must never speak more . Would this be fairly Argued ? Yet we don't see our Adversary make better Work on 't against Us. Under the Title of the Holy Scriptures , F. B. sets , the Letter is Death - Beastly Wares , &c. as if the Quakers so Term the Holy Scriptures Beastly Wares ( Oh! Horrible ) ; this has been often Charged upon him , and Refuted as a gross Slander and Forgery , and not found applied to the Scriptures in his own Quotation ; tho' he persists repeating the same , and in such foul Aspersions , as , that the Quakers Vilify the Scripture , Blaspheme the Blessed Trinity , Reproach Christ's Ministers . ( But , F. B. didst thou so , when a Quaker 25 years ? ) Boldly in Print tell the World , that such as turn from them , and Imbrace the Christian Faith , are the worst of Apostates , worse than Francis Spira and Julian the Apostate . Quoting John Whiting's Book , [ Judas and the Chief Priests , ] Preface and p. 5 , 6. wherein F. B. Notoriously Wrongs both the People called Quakers , and J. W. also , who never told the World so . And to his Charging the said J. W. with false Stories of G. Keith ; J. W. saith , he has several Certificates to prove the Truth of what he related concerning G. K. in his Preface , under the Hands of such as were Witnesses of the same , ready to Produce as Occasion may offer . His Story by the Fire side against Edward Dikes , Junior , of Bury St. Edmonds , and his Constructions on the Words We and You , are so Ridiculous that it is not worth insisting on . He again Clamours out their Blasphemies ( against the Quakers ) upon a Passage Aledged against our Deceased Friend Edward Burroughs , terming him as Horrible an Impostor as Mahomet , about the Sufferings of the People of God ; which yet ( he saith ) he could never find any of them so Defend ; tho' the same be fully Answered and Explain'd in Vind. Verit. p. 206. F. B's . Story of G. F. hiring Two Jews for 80 l. we reject as his own Forgery . But no better Treatment , or Manner of Answering , do we expect from a Mercinary Scribbler , than Reiterated Perversion , Forgery , Curtalizing and Confounding Quotations , whereby the Best of People and Books have been grosly Misrepresented . Therefore the more Need of the Liberty of the Press for Just Vindication . Passing by several other Abuses and Falshoods , for Brevity sake , we Refer the Reader to our following Answers to F. B's . Books , &c. viz. 1. Judgment Fixed . Printed 1682. 2. The Quakers Answer to a Scandalous Libel . 1690. 3. Innocence against Envy . 1681. 4. The Contentious Apostate , and his Blow Refelled . 1691. 5. The Contentious Apostate Recharged . 6. A Charitable Essay , in order to allay the Outrage of a Contentious Apostate . 1693. 7. The Quakers Vindication against Francis Bugg's Calumnies , 1693. 8. Innocency Triumphant over Insolency and Outrage , 1693. 9. A Just Enquiry into the Libellers Abuse , 1693. 10. The Counterfeit Convert , a Scandal to Christianity , 1694. 11. An Answer to Fra. Bugg's Presumptious Impeachment , 1695. 12. A Sober Expostulation with some of the Clergy , against their Pretended Convert Francis Bugg his repeated gross Abuse of the People called Quakers , 1697. 13. A Rambling Pilgrim , or Prophane Apostate Exposed . [ Wherein he is Detected of gross Calumny , Forgery and Propaneness . ] 14. A Just Censure of Francis Bugg's Address to the Parliament , against the Quakers . For the said Books Enquire of T. Sowle , Bookseller , in White-Hart-Court in Grace-Church-street , London . By G. Whitehead , And others Concerned . A Brief ANSWER to Francis Bugg's Reply , to the Quaker's Considerations Humbly Offered . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65841-e10 * See Truth and Innocency , pag. 64. * See Rambling Pilgrim , p. 45 , 46. * See Truth and Innocency , p. 71 , 72. And D. P ' s. Vindic. Verit. p. 89 , to 110. 
A65843	----	A brief treatise on the truths behalf in discovery of falshoods which are dispersed abroad in two papers of Richard Baxters ... the one intituled One sheet for the ministry, the other A second sheet for the ministry, and he hath pretended the one against malignants among whom he hath numbred them called Quakers and uttered forth his envy in several lies and revilings against that people called Quakers, whose known integrity shall stand a witness against all such deceivers and revilers as he is proved to be perpetually ... / by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A65843 of text R26353 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing W1897). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 53 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A65843 Wing W1897 ESTC R26353 09436481 ocm 09436481 43100 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65843) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 43100) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1320:2) A brief treatise on the truths behalf in discovery of falshoods which are dispersed abroad in two papers of Richard Baxters ... the one intituled One sheet for the ministry, the other A second sheet for the ministry, and he hath pretended the one against malignants among whom he hath numbred them called Quakers and uttered forth his envy in several lies and revilings against that people called Quakers, whose known integrity shall stand a witness against all such deceivers and revilers as he is proved to be perpetually ... / by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 22 p. Printed for Thomas Simmons, London : 1658. Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library. eng Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. A65843 R26353 (Wing W1897). civilwar no A brief treatise, on the truths behalf in discovery of falshoods which are dispersed abroad in two papers of Richard Baxters who is greatly Whitehead, George 1658 10389 4 0 0 0 0 0 4 B The rate of 4 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Andrew Kuster Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Andrew Kuster Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A BRIEF TREATISE , ON The Truths behalf in discovery of Falshoods which are dispersed abroad in two papers of Richard Baxters who is greatly esteemed of as an able Minister at Kedarminster in Worcester shire , but his ignorance and deceit is here made appear in his two papers , the one intituled , One sheet for the Ministry , the other A second sheet for the Ministry . And he hath pretended the one against Malignants , among whom he hath numbred them called Quakers , and uttered forth his envy in several lies and revilings against that people called Quakers , whose known integrity shall stand a witness against all such deceivers and revilers as he is proved to be perpetually . 1. Here are several of this said R. Baxters lies made manifest and void . 2. Here is something concerning Ministers maintenance , and tithes , which this Priest Baxter goes about to prove that tithes are both of Civil and Divine Institution . 3. Concerning the Priests call to their Ministry , and how it differs from the true call , with several other things of concernment that here both Magistrates and people may come to see the blindnesse of the deceivers in this Nation . This is given forth onely for the truth sake and for their sakes who love it , by their friend , George Whitehead . LONDON , Printed for Thomas Simmons at the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate , 1658. IT was the enmity and hatred of the old serpent in the false priests and false prophets of old , when the power of truth did appear , to hate , persecute and falsely to accuse the Righteous seed of God , whom he had wrought deliverance for out of captivity and bondage , by his mighty power , and whom he had stirred up thereby to witness for himself , against deceit and deceivers both among Jewes or Gentiles , so that the enmity of the righteous seeds adversaries was so great , and their rage so stirred against the true witnesses , that such as witnessed forth the truth , and such as loved the truth was not onely persecuted and hated by deceivers , but also numbred among the seed of evil doers , and reviled by the wicked , that so one strengthened the hands of another in wickedness , who said report and we will report , and because of Lying , and swearing and drunkeness , the land mourneth and the false Prophets strengthened the hands of evil doers , and by their lies and lightness made people light and vain , and they put no difference between the pretious and vile , and even , so it is evidently seen by the Priests of England , who make it their daily practice to rail , falsely accuse , slander and back-bite the innocent people of God called Quakers , insomuch that the hands of the rude persecutors are daily strengthened by them , and in stead of seeking the preservation of the Lambs of Christs they cast dirt on them , and these shepherds that feeds themselves and not the flock by their lies and dirty stuff which they disperse abroad , sets the dogs on the Lambs of Christ to worry them , so they are far unfit to be sheapherds or Ministers of Christ , but devourers , one of whom this priest Baxter is plainly proved , who hath numbred them called Quakers among the malignants , drunkards , whoremongers , covetous , and all ungodly persons , and compared them with the Papists , and sayes , that these wicked wretches despise and revile the Ministers ( in his one sheet for the Ministry , ( page . 5. ) therefore , now I proceed to lay open his words and lies given forth out of envy against the Innocent , that this Priest may be manifest to be a deceitful Tradsman , and not worthy to be suffered to sell any more of his deceitful ware , he hath confessed as much as that which they ( to wit the Priests ) are brought up to is a trade , as in page 6. Ans. But to his lie and false accusation , I answer , that malignants are such as are in envie , and hatred , who are given over to a reprobate mind , and such as are filled with malignity , commit sin with greediness , Rom. 1. 28 , 29. and for Papists and such , we are truly witnesses against them and against both root and branch of them , and if the Priests of England could as well shew an evident example for their cleerness from popery , as we can for ours who are called Quakers , there should not be that vast difference betwixt us that there is ; for then we should not have the Priests to cry against , for upholding many of their own traditions , and superfluities , and ceremonies , which in their worship they uphold , which in matter and form the Papists uphold , though in the esteeming of their traditions or in the conceit of them there may be some difference , but in the substance they do agree as in their sprinkling infants and using bread and wine , and calling it a sacrament , and in their owning the idols temples or Papists masse-houses , and the Priests in covetousness , and receiving Tithes ( that great oppression ) but something to that I shall speak hereafter : And for drunkards in this Nation , the greatest part whereof are of the Priests , hearers or owners of them who speaks well of the Priests , and will be the readiest to fight for the Priests , and to hail the children of the Lord out of their Assemblies , if any of them be moved to speak to them in their Idols Temple , so we are far from having fellowship with them . And for his accusing us for envying the Ministry ; the true Ministry we own and love , and God knowes our hearts we envie not them at all , neither hate we any mans person , though falsely here he hath numbred us among the wicked , so if he can let him clear himself from popery , for there are many things pertaining to Popery that we could justly charge these Trads-men , the covetouss Priests of England , with . This said Priest , Baxter , saith in page the sixth . These enemies reproach as faithful a Ministry , as the world enjoyeth , the most of the protestant Churches have a Learned ministry , that is so taken up with controversies , that they are much less in the powerful preaching and practise of Godliness . Answ. Indeed that Ministry which the World enjoyeth , are but little in powerful preaching , for the Ministry which the world enjoyed was false Prophets and Anti-christs , and they are of the world , and the world heareth them , ( 1 John . 4 , 5. ) and though the truth may be preached to the world by such as are in the truth , yet the world is not in the enjoyment of it , for the world loveth its own ( Antichrists and false Prophets ) who are less in Godliness indeed , for they are nothing like God , for they that were deceivers were ungodly men , Jude 4. 2 Peter 2. 14. so that if this priest and the rest did but consider what a ministry the world enjoyeth among them , they have little cause to boast of themselves , or their Ministry . Priest , It is for your sakes and souls that they study , and pray , and fast , and watch , and exhort and labour to the consuming of their strength ; ( and this he speaks to them he calls malignants ) on his own and the priests behalf in page 6. and in page the 8th . he saith of the same people he speaks against , nay such are noted for the highest sort of the wicked upon the earth , worse then drunkards , whoremongers and such filthy beasts , the persecutors of Gods Ministers , have been ever taken as walking Devils . Answ. This is such a Ministery as the world enjoyeth indeed , and altogether out of the faith ( so unfaithful ) where the teachers prayes and fasts , for such as this priest confesseth to be the highest sort of the wicked , and as walking devils , surely they spend their strength in vain , that prays for such as they count as Devils , and the worst or highest sort of the wicked ; and how can his or their praying be said to be in the faith , for such as he doth thus judge , and yet he confesseth that there is a little help and hope left for their miserable souls ; see his blindness and confusion , have malignants help and hope ? for if they have hope , then have walking devils hope according to this mans account , and then have the reprobates hope , but it is manifest that there are some that are given over to a reprobate mind , and some are without hope , and some have neglected their visitation , and such are malignants , for whom we do not spend our strength , neither do we pray for walking devils , but ▪ for them whom God hath chosen and will chuse out of the world , neither did the Apostles pray for filthy beasts , but for men . Priest . I profess were it not for the belief of the greatness and necessity and excellency of the truths that I am to preach , and for the will of God , and the good of souls , I would be a plow-man , or the meanest trade if not a sweep-chimny rather then a Minister . Answ. As for the sake of the belief or greatness of truth : he himself is proved both to labour out of the true belief & to be out of the truth , whose labor hath so little effect as it hath , seeing he labours for such as he compareth to walking devils , and complains of the drunkards , whoremongers , covetous and ungodly persons in their parishes , and yet he is a Minister among such ; truly he might see that he Labours but for very vanity if he were not blind , so that a plowman or a sweep-chimny are more lawful then this mans trade who makes a trade upon the scriptures ; and its better to be plowman or sweep chimnies then an unprofitable Teacher . Priest , And he that is the accuser of the brethren which accuseth them before God day and night , and is not this the works of the Quakers ? Answ. No , for the saints were not in the false accusers work when they cryed against such teachers as were in the covetous practises , and called them cursed Children , neither are we accusers of the brethren when we witness against such Ministers now as are in the covetous practises , but do suffer by the false accuser , many of whose false accusations are extant in Priest Baxters lying papers against us called Quakers . Priest in page ten , And what else do Quakers and all these sects that are the enemies of the Minictry , do they not go up and down the land , and say to the wisest holiest teachers , as if they took them by the sleeve , come down and let me preach , that can do it better , come down thou deceiver and ignorant man , and let me come up that am wiser and better . Answ. I question not but that there are many in this natition that can witness against this Priest for a false accuser in these words , for we do not use these words , he layes to our charge , as to say we are wiser and better , and let me come up , here he accuseth us as if we had as mind to come up into their pulpits , but such high places or chiefest seats , we desire not at all , but rather leave them for the hireling priests that they may appear like Pharisees who had the chiefest places in the assemblies , whom Christ cryed wo against , and it is against the Priests , the deceivers that are in the Pharisees steps that we cry and not against the true Ministers ; but we know that the seed is come that tramples upon the high places of the earth , and upon these places wherein Idolatry is upheld . In the 11 page , Priest Baxter takes the labor of most tradesmen in the Town , to be a pleasure to the body in comparison of his ( and saith ) they work in ease , and I in continual pain . Ans. Here let such as labour daily with their hands , consider whether this man hath spoken the truth or no , and whether compacting a sermon together in a week in his study or elsewhere , and much of it made ready to his or their hands , and declaring it over one day , it may be sometimes in two dayes in the week , and it may be speak by an hour-glass as many of the Priests in England do , whether this be not easier to the body , then daily hand labours from mornings till evenings ? and he that saith he is in continual pain , it appears then , that his trade is a bondage to him ; but if he were a Minister of the Gospel , he would not be in continual pain in Ministring that , neither would he murmure or complain as he doth , and as the filthy dreamers did , Jude 16. for the commands of Christ was joyous to his , and the way thereof they ran with great delight and had joy and peace and consolation in the Lord which they received through obedience to his commands , and were not in continual pain , as this priest confesseth he is , and indeed such as he is are like to be in pain they being in their steps who ran , and the Lord never sent them , and the Lord is against them , how can they but be in pain , for the wicked men have no peace with God , and surely this labour and travail and trade of theirs is deep in the curse if they be in continual pain . Priest . As wisely do the Quakers argue , that because we use spectacles or hour-glasses and pulpets , we have not the spirit ; it is not want of your abilities that makes ministers use notes , I use notes as much as any man , when I take pains , and as little as any man when I am Lazy . Answ. Here hee goes about to plead for the Priests using hour glasses , pulpets and notes for teaching by , but he cannot prove that the Ministers of Christ used these things as the blinde guides in England do ; and as for pulpets , such was in Ezra's time , in the time when the Law was read ; and the Pharisees had the chiefest places in the Assemblies , who professed Moses but denied Christ , and he witnessed against them , Mat. 23. and it is manifest that these that limit a time to teach in by an hour-glasse , are not led by the spirit of truth ; for the saints did not preach by hour-glasses , for they spake when , and so long as they were moved by the spirit , neither did they use notes for Sermons as the priests do , but spake in the power and demonstration of the spirit : And here he confesseth himself to be sometimes Lazy , and before said be had scarse time to eat and drink . R. Baxter , see thy confusion , What , art thou in continual pain and yet lazy ? and yet hast thou scarse time to eat and drink , thou may have time for both if thou preach by an hour-glasse ; for shame give over thy trade if it be so tedious to thee , and yet thou art Lazy : Now concerning Tithes and Ministers maintenance , and some other things of concernment . And where this said Priest would clear himself of covetousness and oppression , he begins to plead for their taking tithes , and his taking hire in these words , The same Law of the Land that makes nine parts theirs , doth make the tenth ours ; if we have no title to the tenth , they have none to the rest ; we ask none of our people for a farthing , they give it not to us , it was never theirs when they buy or take Leases of their Land , it is only the nine parts , they pay for . Answ. Here he hath neither cleared himself from covetousnesse , oppression , nor from lying , and here he challenges as great an interest in the Tithes as a man hath in his heritage , or possession which he hath by inheritance , and they that profess themselves Ministers of Christ , pleads now for Tithes by a Law of the Nation , when their Gospel will not manage them in taking Tithes ; truly the Masse Priests or Papists might have brought as strong a proof for their receiving Tithes as this man brings , and the manner of both their receiving of them is contrary to the Law of God , and what a man hath a just right to by inheritance is according to the Law of God , but so is not the Tithes due to priests , now seeing that the second priesthood is come which abolished tithes among the rest of the figures . And for people paying but for 9 parts of their estates , or farmed lands : Let people see this Priests deceit in this , and bring their evidences or deeds of lands or leases against him , for do they not mention that every part and parsel of a tenement or a living that 's sold , is for the singular use of him or them that buyes it , or for his or their heirs , executors or assignes , or every part and parcel of such a Tenement for the use of him that buyeth it , or for the farmers use ; These and such like expressions are recorded in many legal evidences of the nation for farmes or livings without any exception for paying the priest tithes , besides there is the husbandmans labour , or his charges to labourers spended upon his living or Tenement and goods ; so that being considered in the tithes what the priest takes for tithes , doth amount in many places to far more then the tenth of their estates , & if mens ground wanted labour it would lie waste , that the priests would soon want tithes , which were established by the Pope , and upheld by Tyrants who could argue as strongly for them as this priest doth , and therefore by this mans argument were the mass-priests to be upheld by them because they could plead for an interest in tithes and other things , by a Law . For shame you teachers in England , if you be not popishly affected , come out of their steps , places and oppressions , and if you ask not people for a farthing , then why are so many of the people of God subpoened up to the Upper Bench , and many have been imprisoned through your ungospel-like means , and your envy and covetousness whereby the innocent suffers , and the creation groans , but the Lord will meet with you , and pay you your wages for all your deceits one day . And whereas this lying priest also would here accuse us to make people Thieves , and to have them rob God , and to prove his deceit he brings these scriptures , Mal. 3. 8. Rom. 2. 22. Gen. 14. 20. Heb. 7. 6 , 9. Answer . It s no marvel that this hireling hath here prefered an outward or national Law before the scriptures , for the scriptures in this place will not at all manage his designe for tithes , for as for that in Gen. 14 , 20. and Heb. 7. 6. 9. touching Melchizedecks receiving the tenths of the spoil of Abraham when Abraham was returned from the slaughter of the Kings , which was before the Law was given , it maketh nothing for the priests now receiving the tenths of mens estates , labors and increases , and Christ being a Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec , was not in order to Melchisedec's receiving the tenths of Abraham , but in order to his Immortality , and his being without desent , without beginning of dayes or end of time . And Christ did not give any command for his to take tithes , and for that in Mal. 3. 8. in Malachies time the Covenant was with Levi , and that was before Christ came in the flesh , when they were to bring the Tithes unto the store-house , that the Lord might have meat in his house for fatherless widowes and strangers , which was according to his covenant and law to Levi , so that then in the prophets time , when they did not bring the Tithes to the store-house they robbed God , and the priests had corrupted the covenant of Levi , and violated the Law of God , Mal. 2 2. 8. and 3. 8. so now seeing this priest counts the tithes or hire that they take to be of the Lords portion in page 14 and that if they have never so much that they devote it wholly to the Lord as he saith , then I say where is their store-house , or when do any of them bring the tithes to a store-house for the relief of fatherless widdowes and strangers , seeing they bring that in , Mal. 3. 8. for their taking tithes ; it may as well be said that they rob God : Now if the first covenant and Levitical Law , and priest-hood were to be preached up now as they were counted robbers of God in Mallachies time that brought not the tithes to the store-house . But we conclude that that priesthood that took tithes is changed , and of necessity , the Law is changed and the commandment disanulled that gave tithes . Heb. 7. and where this priest here would plead for tithes to be of divine institution , by that in Mat 23. 23. here he would grosely blind the minds of people indeed , and here he hath plainly brought a popish argument in effect , and cited the Scriptures that the papists plead for tithes by , as I have seen in an annotation of their , adjoyned to that in Heb. 7. but let me tell both the papists and the priests of England , that when Christ spoke that in , Mat. 23. 23. that this was before he suffered on the cross , whereto he nailed the hand writing of Ordinances , and blotted it out , Colos. 2. and he abolished in the flesh , the Law of commandments contained in ordinances ; so that this priest and the rest that pleads for tithes to continue in that particular , do deny Christ come in the flesh , and are enemies to his cross , minding earthly things , and for earthly ends pleads for Tithes , as to maintain themselves in ease , and them and their wives and children in pride and Idleness , which causeth the creation to groan , and causeth many poor men to work hard and earn their livings dearly ; so that which they receive from the people is not devoted to the Lord as the Lords portion , but coveted unto themselves , for the maintaining of these covetous , lazy shepherds in England ; and to maintain his deceit , he also saith that the primative Christians gave not onely the tenth , but all that they had , and laid it at the Apostles feet . I answer , but here the Apostles did not receive tithes for themselves , nor plead for tithes as a Divine institution , as the Priests do ; for this was that distribution might be made unto every man according as he had need , Act. 4. 35. And this said Priest also goes about further to cover this his evil coveteousnes and oppression by that in the 1 Cor. 9. 5. 7. 13 , 14. To which I answer , that he , and the rest of his companions , in iniquity are manifest to be in anti-christs deceit , and in cursed practises , and the root of all evil sprung up in them , to wit covetousnes after mony , and the fruit of it , as oppression which abounds among them , and covetousness is idolatry , so the priests that are covetous are Idolaters , so then these Idolaters Anti-christs , blinde guids and Deceivers have no interest in that livelyhood that pertained to the Gospel for their teaching , seeing that they are no Ministers of the Gospel ; so for living of the Gospel they cannot , and for going a warfare for the gospel they do not forgoing a warfare is not a lying loytering at ease in settled places as the Priests in England do , like lazy drones who never came to endure hardship , as the souldiers of Christ have done and do , who go not a warfare at their own charges , but their Master Christ bears them out and rewards them , and puts them forth , and goes before them , and they live of the Gospel , as his true Ministers have done who had power from him to eat and drink , where they were received according to his command , Mat. 10. 1 Cor. 9. but not to take tithes , nor to oppress people as the Priests do ; so now R. Baxter thy false cloak for covetousness is quite rent , and all thy arguing for preaching for hire , and taking tithes , will not at all maintain thee therein , neither doth any scripture prove these thy practises , nor are they at all concordable with the Saints practises . Priest . Prove us unsanctified , and we will refign our office . Answ. Thou art proved a covetous man , an idolater , a false accuser , a deceiver ; and covetous unthankful men , ( such as thou art ) ware unholy , 2 Tim. 3. 2 , 3 , 4 : then you are unsanctified , for such as are unholy may Justly be said to be unsanctified , therefore if thou and you do not resign your office , you 'l be further taken notice of , who hold up a deceitful trade that God wil overthrow who make a trade upon the Scripture , and are teachers for hire which Micha and the Prophets of God cryed against , & R. Baxter thou hast confessed as much as that which you are brought up to at the Universities as thou callest them is a trade , in these words ( to wit , would not the time & labour and cost that they are at in the Schooles and Vniversities , have fitted them for a more gainful trade ? Answ. It appears then that they that have mony enough therby may bind themselves as Apprentiless at Oxford or Cambridg ( or at Durham , which of late is set up to bring up such tradesmen ) as through carnal industry and bestowing cost may come to such a trade as R. Baxter , and the rest of the priests are of , truly they may even be ashamed of calling themselves Ministers of Christ , seeing that they are set up and made Ministers by the will of man , through carnal cost , and their own labour , but here they are out of the true wisdom , for it cannot be purchased with gold , Job . 28. 15. And thus for the Priests education to their Ministry , they cannot prove it to be as the call that Timothy and the elders in the Churches of Christ had , though this priest hath gone about deceitfully in his second sheet to prove it ; but y●u may see further concerning that shortly and in plainness . Priest . In his fifth and thirteenth pages he confesseth that there is scandals in the Ministry ( as drunkenness and swearing , &c. ) and saith , that Ministers are still spurring on the Magistrates , to cast out the insufficient , negligent , and scandalous . Answ. If the Priest be still spurring on the Magistrates , then they make slaves on them , and makes them as beasts , or horses that wants understanding , truly if the Magistrates grow not weary of their teachers they are very blinde , and very much feared in their consciences , for who could stil endure spurring on , but I believe that if the Priests spur the Magistrates on as he calls it , it s more for their own preferments that the priests have petitioned often to the Magistrates for Tithes , Augmentations and preferments in the earth to satisfie their ungodly covetousnesse , rather then spurred them on to cast out drunkards and swearers ; but if the Magistrates stood in the counsel of God , they would have understanding how to act for God , and do their duty in obedience to God of a ready mind , and would not need the priests continually to spur them on as slaves ; But be not ye like the horse or mule that wanteth understanding , but learn judgement and do justice ye Rulers . And what , have the Priests been Rulers so long , ( as this priest pleads for them to be ) and teachers in England so many years , and have they not cast out from among them the drunkards and swearers yet ? It s even time for them to resign their office indeed : And this Priest saith , that Magistracy is as truly from God as the Ministry . Then I say what need any Ministers be still spurring on the Magistrates as this Priest saith , that they do ( also he saith , that there is a clearer word in the gospel for the Ministry then for the Migistracy in page 2. ) Then I say , How is Magistracy as truly from God as the Ministry ? If there be a clearer word for the one then the other , and also to say that there is two words in the Gospel , the one not so clear as the other , is another errour ; for every Word of God is clear ; and for Magistracy , and the power that Magistrates are intrusted withall it is ordained of God , but the Magistrates or Rulers that do uphold such blinde guides as this , who is in such errours and confusion , they grossely abuse their power , and shall give an account for it one day . And this said Priest saith to them he calls Malignants , &c. If you will come and help us to cast out any that are vitious and unworthy , wee will give you thanks . Answer . Here he speaks of such helping them as before he counted as walking devils , and as the highest in wickednesse upon earth ; surely he can but help his hearers badly and miserably for their souls seeing his strength is so much decayed , that he would thank them he cals malignants if he could have their help , it may be justly said that they that seek to him for help do but go down into AEgypt for help . Priest . If the Magistrates stop the mouths of such raylors and abusers of God and men , he doth no more persecute then he persecuteth a thief when he haugeth him ( and this he speaks against them called Quakers in page 12. ) Answer . Here his envy and maliciousnesse is made appear whereby he would stir up the Magistrates to persecute us for our profession , which we know Christ Jesus is the Authour of , and this is because that we are made to witnesse against him , and against such deceitful tradesmen as he is , but if he were in the truth , and saw us in errors , then he would not seek to incense the Magistrates to persecute us , but rather seek to convince us by sound doctrine , and a good example , but such as he are manifest to be out of both , and he would bring Paul and Peter and the Churches of Christ for a cloak to his malice , which here he hath uttered to the Magistrate against us , but they will not cover him nor his deceit ; for though they rejected , judged and delivered some up to Satan , yet they did not persecute them nor complain to the Magistrates to have thē east into prison , nor to have their goods taken from them for their profession , as many of the priests in England have done , by whom many of the servants of the Lord in England have suffered and do suffer , both the spoiling of their goods , and imprisonments , and some the losse of their lives in prisons , whose sufferings will rise up as a heavy judgement when their prayers shall be fulfilled against their persecutors . And this said Priest it appears allows of hanging them that steal , seeing that he would have us persecuted , and counts it as lawful as hanging a thief . Answer . Here this is a murtherous spirit , that would take away the life for the creatures , and so doing is contrary to the Law of God , Let the Priest and the Magistrate read Exod. 22. 1 , 2 , 3. If a man shall steal an Ox or a Sheep and kill it or sell it , he shall restore five oxen for an Ox , and 4. Sheep for a sheep . If a thief be found breaking up , and be smitten that he die , there shall no blood be shed for him ; if the sun be risen upon him , there shall he blood shed for him , for he should make restitution . If he have nothing , then he shall be sold for his theft , Mark by this then if the thief was slain after the sun was risen , there was blood to be shed for him , and in verse the fourth , if the theft certainly be found alive in his hands , whether it be Ox , Ass , or Sheep , he shall restore double , and in Eph. 4. 28. Let him that stole steal no more , but rather let him labour , working with his hands the thing which is good , that he may have to give to him that needeth ; but he doth not say that he is to be hanged for this theft , and how shall he labour or work with his hands if he be hanged ? Therefore Magistrates had need to take heed of hanging thieves , and priests of allowing it . Now concerning the Priests call to their Ministry as followeth , and how it differs from the true call . Now whereas R. Baxter in his second sheet , goeth about to prove the priests call to their Ministry to be of God , and brings scriptures to prove his and their call to be lawful ; for their sakes that desires to be informed in this thing I shall mention something concerning it , that the simple may be informed , and the minds of the ignorant unvailed , that they may see the difference between a true call which is revealed and a false call , where revelation is denyed by the false Mininisters , and that the scriptures , and the form of sound words do not make void revelations . Whereas R : Baxter in his first proposition in pages 3 , 4 : goeth about to prove 2 distinct sorts of Ministers , first such as received revelation , or a particular law or message immediately from God , these were prophets and Apostles ; and he goes about to distinguish a second sort of Ministers from them , and the second sort he calls over seers , Bishops presbyters or elders , pastors , and Teachers , and Decons , and that the latter sort ( as he calls them ) was not to declarewhat they had immediately from God but what is declared in Scripture , and what they have heard of others , and saith that the holy Ghost is to help us in keeping that which is committed to us , and not to reveal more . Answ. This is a false distinction and a perverting the scriptures to distinguish Elders , Pastors and Teachers , or Bishops from them that had Revelation and immediate teaching , and from being Apostles , for John was an Elder and declared what he had revealed , that which he had heard , that which he had seen , and which he had looked upon , which was from the beginning , the same he shewed to others , 1 John 1. 1. And he saith the Elder unto the Elect Lady , and the Elder unto the wel-beloved 2 John 1. 3. John 1. and John was an Apostle , Mat. 10. And the Apostle Peter was an Elder who had the word of God revealed , so an Elder not distinct from an Apostle here as this man would have them : And Paul was a father in the truth , and an Elder was as a father to be intreated , 1. Tim. 5. 1. so he that is a father is an Elder , and the same that was an Elder was an Apostle , and declared what he had received immediately from God , and the Elders , Pastors and Teachers had gifts given them from God when Christ was ascended he gave gifts unto men , he gave some Apostles , some Prophets , and some Evangelists , and some Pastors and Teachers , for the perfecting of the Saints ; for the work of the Ministery , for the edifying of the body of Christ , Ephes. 4. 11 , 12. the Apostle doth not say , that the Evangelists , Pastors and Teachers had not received that immediately from God which they taught , as this man doth , for they had gifts given them when Christ ascended , which gifts were perfect , and was given for the perfecting , which gifts was revealed in the Church of Christ , for these gifts were for the benefit of the Church , neither had they received these gifts from man , but from God , and these that had gifts given them for the work of the Ministry , whether Prophets , Apostles , Evangelists , Pastors , or Teachers , they had power to ordain Elders in the Churches , as well as the Apostles had power to lay on hands on several that beleeved , which when they laid their hands , immediately the holy Ghost came upon them , so that Paul , and Barnabas , and Timothy , and Titus had power to ordain Elders , Acts 14. 23. Titus 1. but this was in the Church whom Christ presented blameless , and fitted for himself . Ephs. 5. 26 27. and Chr●st had fitted them that were Elders , Bishops , or Deacons , for himself before they were allowed of for their Office by the Apostles who were first to be tryed , and then they were to Minister ; now that which presented them blameless was the gift of God , and they had the gift revealed in them , and a Bishop , and a Decon must be blameless , not given to wine , no striker , not greedy of filthy Lucre , but patient , not a brawler , not covetous , and apt to teach , and so must Elders , for they were Bishops , Titus . 1. 5 , 6. 7. Priest . Now seeing this said priest professeth the Ministry in England to be of this sort , for he saith in page the tenth for qualifications , they have first competent knowledge , secondly and utterance , thirdly and godliness . Answ. That 's all false , For first how can they have competent knowledge seeing that they deny revelation , and immediate teaching , when as Christ saith no man knowes the father but the Son , and he to whom the Son will reveal him , Mat. 11. here they that denies revelation knowes neither the father nor the Son . Let Christs own words stand a witness against this lying Priest , and the rest of them : Secondly true utterance they are far from , seeing that they deny immediate teaching by the spirit ; for true utterance was a gift of the Spirit , the Saints spoke as the spirit gave them utterance , and the spirit & word of God was revealed in Timothy & Titus , who were owned for Ministers by the Apostles , & Timothy had the gift of God in him , and unfeigned faith in him , and that gift was given by Prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the company of Elders , as it is in some translations recorded , now his call was not like the call of these Priests of England , for the Prophefies that went on Timothy , they came not by the will of man , neither was the laying on of Elders hands according to mans will . So that though the Priests would put themselves in number with Timothy and the Elders , yet we find them shut out from their call and Ministry , for we never understood that they that set up these priests were called as Peter or Paul , or the Elders , who had power to lay on the hands , that the holy Ghost fell on the party on whom they laid on their hands , and thus much will some of the Priests confess , which may be to the shame of him that here professeth himself to be called as Timothy was . And further this man aforesaid hath confessed that the Ministers for whom he pleads , are brought up at the Universities , as he calls them , where they have bestowed labour and cost to bring them up to the Ministery , which might have fitted them for a more gainful trade ; so that here their education is not to the true Ministry , but to a trade ; but Timothy and Titus , and the elders in the true Churches , on whom the Apostle laid hands , did not make a trade on their Ministry , nor on the Scripture , though they knew the Scriptures and did preach the word of God according to the Scriptures by the gift of God in them , and who was to do the work of Evangelists , whom Christ had endued with gifts from above , neither was the holy Ghost to be bought with mony though it fell on several who believed , when the Apostles laid their hands on them , for he and his mony was to perish who would have bought the holy Ghost with mony , Acts 8. 19. 20. So all the cost that the priests bestowes at Oxford or Cambridge , it doth but purchase them a trade , and that a deceitful one too , it cannot purchase the holy Ghost , nor the gifts of the spirit , which Bishops , Elders , and Deacons , in the true Churches were indued and fitted with , but not made Ministers at Schools , nor by the will of man , as the priests are now . Thirdly , Neither are they in godlinesse nor qualified as a true Bishop , or a Deacon , or Elder , seeing that the Priests in England , are covetous , greedy of filthy lucre , and many of them given to wine , and envious men , and brawlers , and novices as many in this nation can witness , but the true Elders were not such , and the man of God was to flee from the desire of mony , and they that went in the error of Balaam for reward , and in the way of Cain to envy , and through covetousnesse made merchandise of people , were ungodly men , ordained of old for condemnation , Jude 11. 2 Pet. 2. Therefore the Priests being ignorant of Revelation , immediate teaching from God , and being out of the true knowledge , utterance and godliness , so strangers to the heavenly gift , they are not fit to teach , but are deceivers , shut out from among the number of the true Elders of Christ , for the ungodly shall not be numbered with the seed of the righteous ; but we look at the life and gifts of God which qualifies and brings into the state and condition that the true Elders , Bishops and Deacons were in , more then their names , seeing that they could not have these names , nor be ordained for their office by the Apostles , till they were first fitted and tryed in the truth , and by the gift of God which was in the Apostles and elders of the true Church , who denyed not revelation and immediate teaching , for they had that revealed in them which they taught , and by that knew the holy scriptures which are able to make a man wise unto salvation through faith that is in Christ , but without faith which is revealed , and the gift of God , the Scriptures cannot be known as they ought to be , for it is the man of God that the Scriptures are profitable for the furnishing of , and for our learning they are written who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit . Priest . But we are not built on the foundation of every Pastor , Teacher , Elder , Bishop , or Deacon , though both in their places , Apostles , Prophets , Evangelists , Pastors , and Teachers are given for the perfecting of the Saints , &c. Answ. Here he would make two foundations , the foundatition of the Prophets and Apostles , not to be the foundation of the Pastors , Teachers , and Elders , ( which were all given of God ) here he hath quite shut himself forth of the number of the true Church , and hath shut himself out from being one of that sort of Ministers which before he pretended himself to be of , so that this doth the more confirm to what I have written , for how can he be either true Pastor , Teacher , or Elder , when he is not built upon their foundation , according to his own confession , so he cannot be any Minister of Christ who is not built upon the true foundation which is but one ; so you may take notice of R. Baxters confusion , for another foundation can no man lay then that which is laid , which is Christ , and they that were members of the true Church , were built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles , Christ Jesus being the chief corner stone , who was & is the saints foundation , and that building which is not builded upon Christ , shall as surely fall as R. Baxter is proved to be no Minister of Christ , and that is sure enough . Priest . In page the 14 he brins an objection which is , But you are not ordained by Bishops ; his answer is almost all in England are till of late , if that will serve , our parish Presbyters are Bishops , &c. Answ. Here he goes about to justifie the Bishops that was in England , ordaining of priests , so that in this he is setting up that which before he pretended they had taken down as in his other sheet in page the sixth , he saith , have not the Ministers themselves been the pincipal instruments of taking down Bishops , Deans , and chapters , Arch-Deacons , Prebends , and all means of preferments , and what have they got by it ? so he that is here setting up that which before he hath pretended , that the Ministers have taken down , here he makes himself a transgressor ; and people may take notice further against this priest for a lyar that all means of preferment which the Bishops was preferred in , the Priests of England have not taken down , seeing that almost all of them , till of late are ordained by the Bishops ; so they are not Christs Ministers , but Bishops Ministers , and if all the Bishops means of preferment were taken down by the Priests , then what means the Priests taking Tithes and upholding such great oppression , as causeth the creation to groan , and their suing people at Law , and their causing of them to be imprisoned that refuse to pay the Priests Tithes ( for conscience sake ) surely here is Bishops Ministers , upholding Bishops Tyranny , and that by Bishops Lawes that are corrupt ( and unrepealed ) as may be made appear : This Priest hath quite cast himself into the mire , and hath made his call void , for he saith in his 16 page ( the truth of our doctrine depends not on our calling ) Then it is manifest that their calling is a false calling , for if it were of God it were according to true doctrine , & true doctrine that 's preached in obedience to a true calling ; depends on , or hath unity with that calling . Priest . He that hath no just call shall answer for what he doth as an intruder , but the people shall have for all that the fruit of his Ministration , and preaching , and Baptism , and other acts shall not be null to them . Answ. That 's false , for they that ran and the Lord sent them not ( they had not a just call from God ) they could not profit the people at all , therefore their teaching was null to the people as yours is , who are not built upon the foundation of the true Prophets , and Elders , accordingly as it is made appear in the foregoing words , as also is your unjust call ; and here thou goest about to vindicate an intruders preaching , when as the Apostle witnessed against such , Colos. 2. for intruders are mainly puft up in their fleshly minds , and even so is he that would have them to be preachers . Priest . In page the ninth , The necessities of the Church continue , we still need a Teaching Ministry , and for that he brings , Heb. 5. 11. Ans. In Heb. 5. there is no such word as that the necessities of the Church continue , here he is proved to be a perverter of the Scripture , as it may be seen in that place , for those unto whom the Apostle spoke was dull of hearing , so he reproved them , for when as for the time they might have been teachers , they themselves had need to have been taught , but he did not say they still needed teaching by Ministers , as this priest would have the Church to continue in necessity , and so then if the necessity of the Church continue , the Church is not supplied ; Oh what blindness is here , that ever people should be blinded and led by such blind guids as this , they may be in want and necessity , still ever learning , never able to come to the knowledge of the truth indeed , that are lead by them , and never come to receive the promise , while they are led by such , but the promise of God was fulfilled in the Churches who were taught of God as he had promised , they shall not need to teach every man his neighbour , saying know the Lord , but they shall all know me from the least to the greatest saith the Lord , Heb. 8 and John wrote to them that needed not that any man should teach them , for they had the annoiting from the father which taught them of all things , but this said Priest hath been much pleading for himself , and such as he is to be the principal members , parts and supporters of the Church , but it may be truly said that such Churches as have such as he is for their principal members and supporters , that they are both blind and lame ; & dumb from speaking any thing from revelation or immediate teaching from God , but them of the true Church witnessed both , for they might all prophesie one by one , 1 Corinth . 14. 31. And this priest also saith in the foresaid page that there is no salvation promised but to the Church , and brings Ephes. 5. 23 , 25 , 26 , 27 , and Mark 16. 16. to prove his deceit when there is no such word in these scriptures as he brings them for , but if he had said that there are none in whom the promise of salvation is fulfilled , but them of the true Church , he would not need have been questioned for so saying , but Christ who is the covenant and the salvation of God , he is promised to be his salvation to the ends of the earth , and he is given for a light unto the Gentiles , and the scripture foreseeing ( or foretelling ) that God would justifie the heathen through faith , Gal. 3. 8. and they shall be called the people of God that were not his people , so that the promise of God reached unto a people , before it was fulfilled , and before that they were united into the Church , but this blinde guide hath made manifest his ignorance concerning the promise of salvation as he hath done concerning many other things he hath given forth in his lying papers , who saith that many thousands are damned for want of the light , but in this he is also in errour , for thousands are condemned by the light , because they hate it , and this is the condemnation , that light is come into the world , and men loved darkness rather then the light because their deeds are evil , John 3. And this said priest in his second page would accuse them he calls Quakers for being the Papists Agents but this we deny and return it back again upon him , for both the Papists , their wayes , worships , superstition and deceits and adherents we clearly witness against in life , conversation and doctrine , as in many things is evident to the World in many of our books and manner of our life ; and for them he calls Seekers among whom he numbers us , All that are seeking , worshipping or waiting in their own wills and imaginations we deny , but they that seek in sincerity so as to find the right way we own them according to the true light wherein the drawings of God is manifest unto them that believe in the Light which doth inlighten every man that cometh into the world . And R. Baxter saith this is the saving Gospel that the Seekers , Quakers and their brethren preach , that the scripture is not the Gospel , &c. I answer , If the Quakers preach a saving Gospel , then out of thy own mouth art thou judged , to revile and speak evil of the Ministers of the Gospel , and then why hast thou written so much against the Quakers as thou calls them , if they preach the saving Gospel which is everlasting , which was before the scripture was . But didst thou mean as thou hast spoken ? if thou did , then why do not you Priests preach that which here thou saist we preach . But what thou R. Baxter hath uttered in these two sheets is not the first time thou hast set thy self against the innocent and against the Truth with thy lies and confusions , as the Reader may be further satisfied concerning thee if he read the Answer to thy book called The Quakers Catechism , and that book tituled ( Many strong reasons confounded ) in answer to another lying sheet of thine against the Quakers ; And here thou art proved a Deceiver , a Raylor , and false accuser of the innocent , a teacher and disperser of lies and false doctrines , and thy call to be a false call , and thou and the rest that own thee to be out of the true foundation : Therefore stop thy mouth , and give over thy trade for shame , and be confounded , for the light is risen and the morning is broken forth which discovers all you blinde guides , and destroyers of souls , and your filthinesse shame and confusion is made appear , and your noysom smell of wickednesse , oppression , pride and deceit is come up before the Lord who will consume you by the breath of his mouth and will scatter you and break you , and stamp you to pieces . Dread and tremble you Babylons Tradesmen , for the time is a coming that your ware shall not be esteemed of , and you shall wail for the misery that is coming upon you , and let all that love their souls save themselves from this wicked generation of deceivers , and return to the Lord God , and walk in his light which shineth in their hearts , to receive the teachings of his wayes , that the true promises and Ministry they may partake of , and deny the false ministry and ministers which we are made through the truth to witnesse against and renounce with their dishonesty , and we preach not to keep people alwayes learning , but that they may bee turned from the darknesse to the light , and come to see the true Ministry fulfilled in them by the spirit of Truth . This onely lay upon me to give forth for the Truths sake , to clear it , and them that are in it from lies , otherwise I should have been willing to have suffered under them , for it is no pleasure nor advancing to me to search in the Priests confusion . THE END ▪ Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65843e-250 And if the reader would be further satisfied touching the ground and rise of Tithes , he may seriusly view a book called the great case of Tithes truly stated by A. P. 
A65848	----	The case of the suffering people of God truly stated and their innocencie vindicated from the false aspersions and pretences (under which the persecution spirit seeks to cover it self, to make the nation believe its proceedings against them are just) that it may be unvailed, and appear as it is in its self, and the cause for which Gods people suffer made appear, according to the nature of it : wherein also the persecutors in England are warned, before the day of the Lord overtake them, as a destruction from him. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1664 Approx. 22 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 6 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65848 Wing W1901 ESTC R19809 12290509 ocm 12290509 58880 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65848) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58880) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:12) The case of the suffering people of God truly stated and their innocencie vindicated from the false aspersions and pretences (under which the persecution spirit seeks to cover it self, to make the nation believe its proceedings against them are just) that it may be unvailed, and appear as it is in its self, and the cause for which Gods people suffer made appear, according to the nature of it : wherein also the persecutors in England are warned, before the day of the Lord overtake them, as a destruction from him. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 11 p. [s.n.], London : 1664. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Signed: G.W. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Doctrines. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2005-01 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE CASE Of the Suffering People of GOD , Truly Stated : And their Innocencie vindicated from the false Aspersions and Pretences ( under which the Persecuting Spirit seeks to cover it self , to make the Nation believe its Proceedings against them are just ) that it may be unvailed , and appear as it is in its self , and the Cause for which Gods People suffer made appear , according to the nature of it . Wherein also The Persecutors in ENGLAND are warned , before the Day of the Lord overtake them , as a destruction from him . LONDON : Printed in the Year 1664. The Case of the Suffering People of God , truly Stated . OH ! what hardness of Heart , searedness of Conscience , and benumedness is come upon them that have set themselves in a Spirit of Enmity , against such as fear God , and keep their Consciences void of offence towards God and man ? and how is the Righteous sought to be made a prey upon , and to be destroyed by such as have set themselves in a Persecuting Spirit , to Persecute , oppress and injure the Righteous ? Surely this hardness of heart , and persecuting innocent men for their Consciences ( that is got up among the men in this Generation , who profess Christianity ) doth fore-run heavy and severe judgements from the Righteous God , upon all them whose hearts are filled with cruelty and malice against tender Conciences , whom nothing will satisfie , but even the rooting out of the Righteous , and of the Truth it self if it were possible ; and the defacing all appearance of Sobriety , Faithfulness and Sincerity , where it appears under a differing Form or Way from that which the persecuting Spirit would impose and confine all to ; The Righteous God who beholds and weighs the Actions of men , who will judge righteously and without respect of persons ( be they never so high ) takes notice of these injuries , and wrongs , and oppressions that his own tender Seed suffers under . And he that hears the sighings of his Prisoners , will call all to judgement that are partakers of this great iniquity , of persecuting and oppressing his People for matters of Conscience and Worship ; And though this Spirit that thus highly appears against the Righteous , be subt●l and crafty in its instruments , in going about to ensnare and persecute men , and to spie out occasions against such as appear against its Wayes and Oppressions , yea if it be but such as are for a general good , in a civil way , as among men , that have an inspection into the indirect wayes , and corrupt proceedings of that Spirit of Persecution , it will endeavour the stopping their mouths , and seek their overthrow ; And yet for all its subtilty , and its colours and pretences , it cannot hide it self nor them that are in it , neither under the profession of Christianity , Justice , or Legal proceedings ; for all whose eyes are open , and who retain but a common understanding without prejudice , see what the Persecutors work tends to , as to endeavour the rooting out of the Good , and the giving Life and Liberty to the bad and prophane ; for why else are we persecuted and cast into Prisons , and many of us thronged up together in Holes and nasty Places , for peaceably meeting together in the Service and Worship of the Living God , to wait upon him , or to edifie one another in that Faith and Love received in Christ , as the Saints and true Christians have done , when Drunkards , Swearers , Ballad-singers in the streets , Stage-players , Puppet-players , Fidlers , Bear-baiting , and such like have their liberty ( yea and some of them Licences too ) to uphold their prophane Meetings and Practices ; do not all rational and sober men take notice of these things ? And do you ( who have set your selves to persecute us ) think that the God of Heaven and Earth will not be avenged on such a people , and severely judge for such doings ? Oh! consider these things , and let not presumption and pride of heart so far over-whelm you , as either to say within your selves there is no God , or that you shall not be called to an account for your proceedings . For the injury or wrong that we ( the Lord's People , called Quakers ) suffer , is a two-fold injury . First , By persecuting and imprisoning , and going about to exile or banish us for our Consciences , and so debarring many of us of the benefit of the fresh Air , and keeping many in nasty Holes , which tends to destroy the outward man , which oppression and suffering cries in the ears of the Lord , and is so far from Christianity , that it is below humanity it self , and natural affection , tenderness or respect to the Creation it self . And secondly , we suffer injury from our Persecutors , by their mis-representing us as Jujurious and Criminal , so to bring us under that , called the Civil or Temporal Law , as Offenders , ( which does not at all reach our Case ) and not as those that suffer upon a conscientious account , or for a matter of tender Conscience , that the Persecuting Spirit may ( under such false glosses and deceits , and wronging the Innocent and their Cause ) colour over its proceedings as Legal and Just , the injustice whereof who is it cannot see ? For what evil , Sedition or injury against any mans person have our Meetings produced , let our Neighbours and the whole Nation bear witness , and the just Witness of ▪ God in men judge , and Conscience speak , or any who have beheld our deportment and behaviour ? have we not been all along a suffering people , and exposed to great sufferings since we were a people , for matters of Religion and Conscience ? wherein we must give account unto God , and answer his Will and not mans ; and have we not borne our Suffering patiently without resistance ? Hath not long experience ( and that under the several Governments or Powers since we were a People ) shewed that our deportment hath been peaceable and harmless in the exercise of our Consciences ? so as we have still innocency for our Plea in the sight of our Enemies , and so have not forfeited our interest in that Liberty so often promised to tender Consciences , which is to be left free to God to ▪ Rule , and Order , and not for man to limit to his will or lord over . And those that persecute tender Consciences , or Gods People ( who are harmless and innocent ) break our peaceable Meetings by rude Souldiers , Armed men , or otherwise , and oppress and imprison us , and go about to banish us , under notion of being Seditious Sectaries , disloyal Persons , and our Meetings , as being Seditious Conventicles , Tumultuous Assemblies , tending to Rebellion and Insurrection ; and accuse us for meeting under colour or pretence of Religious exercise , ( as if the contrary were intended ) and so to sentence us to suffer for unlawful Assemblies , when no unlawful Act can be proved against us , that we have committed , or ever met about . Now whilst upon these accusations , and in this wise branding us , Reason , Justice and Legality is pretended in their proceedings against us ; This is but a Cloak , and a Cover , and a false gloss , whilst no such criminal matters can be proved against us , or any of the People of God , who are peaceable and innocent , and desire the good of all men in what we do ; and our Case is a Spiritual Matter , relating to Conscience , and the Worship of God , which is out of the reach of any Temporal or Civil Law , which was made , or added , because of outward Transgression ; so as our Cause is out of your sight , and beyond your Sphear , who persecute us in this wise , and not to be judged of by such whose judgement is but fallible , whether they profess themselves to be Spiritual or Temporal Judges ; for the Spirit of God which is infallible , in which we serve and worship him , is our Guide and Leader , and thereby we know him to be our Lord and Law-giver , as he is to his Church . And our being persecuted as being obstinate or wilful , and Contemners of Authority , for not swearing , as some of us have been , when we have been indicted for refusing the Oath of Allegiance , ( which is said to be a promissory Oath ) as wilfully & obstinately refusing it , and in contempt , &c. as also for refusing those called Judicial Oaths , we are liable to be exposed to Banishment ; ( as being represented not to refuse them out of conscientiousness , but obstinacy , and the like ) which is an apparent wrong done to us , and our case herein is misrepresented , and such things have been laid as snares ▪ on purpose to make us suffer ; for the Lord knows our hearts and consciences in this matter , that it is not out of obstinacy , nor wilfulness , nor contempt , that we have refused to swear , but singly for Conscience-sake to Christ , and in obedience to him , ( see Mat. 5. 33 , 34. James 5. 12. ) as those that know the Love of God , which ends the strife that was the occasion of Oaths , and must hold forth a Testimony of that Love both in Word , in Doctrine and Example . And albeit we have been rendered as Criminal Offenders in these Cases of Conscience , and as Contemners of Authority , and seditious , &c. in our meeting together ( which is in the Worship of God ) and Decrees or Laws have been intended against us thereupon ; it hath been seldom ( in many places ) that the Prosecutors of them ( or our Persecutors ) would keep to their own Law , when it was brought forth , as to suffer a fair tryal according to the letter or words of it ; but sometimes when some of us have been taken in a Meeting for matter of Worship , some have had also the Oath of Allegiance tendered them ; and that the Persecutors might be sure to make them suffer as much as they could under colour of legality , they have committed them to Prison , both for meeting and refusing to swear , and afterwards sentenced some thereupon to a Premunire : And after that some have been taken and imprisoned for matters of Worship , as supposed Transgressors of an Act of Parliament , when they have been brought to Sessions they might not be tried upon the Law upon which they were first taken and imprisoned , but have been indicted at common Law ( as was pretended against them ) for meeting to the terrour of the people , by force and arms , &c. and thereupon sentenced , and their suffering encreased ; when all that could be proved against them , was , That they were at a Meeting which was peaceable , ( where it may be some were preaching the Truth , or praying , or all sitting together in silence : ) And thus we have been wronged , and falsely rendered , as criminal , and our Case is mis-represented : And all this is , that these men may oppres● 〈◊〉 as much as they can , and that under the shew of Reason and Justice ; that they may be taken as those that are just in their proceedings , when there is no Reason nor Truth in the ground thereof , but Justice turned backward amongst them , and Equity cannot enter . And now many of the innocent Servants of the Lord suffer imprisonment , some being committed for three months , and some for a few days , which is all in enmity against them , with an intent , in those that deal so by them , to suppress them , or to rid the Nation of them the sooner : and this is done against them for meeting together in the Worship of God , under pretence against them , that their Meetings are seditious Conventicles , or tumultuous or unlawful Assemblies , or under colour or pretence of Religious Exercise not allowed by the Lyturgy or Practice of the Church of England , &c. when as all that could be proved or evidenced against us , was , That we were in a Meeting , or met at such a place ( which was in a peaceable manner , & neither seditious nor tumultuous ) where it may be some might be preaching Righteousness and Truth , or praying to the Lord by his Spirit , or in some place sitting in silence , waiting upon the Lord , where no colour nor pretence at all of Religious Exercise or Worship could be proved ; for what as was , must be really in our hearts to the Lord God in that Case , without any colour or pretence as to their view or capacities who have taken us , or witnessed against any of us ; yet the bare proof that we were at a Meeting ( as mentioned ) serves them to make us suffer upon , they not regarding whether the Religious Exercise or Worship which we are in , be according to the Scriptures of Truth , or the practice of the primitive Christians and Saints , who met in Houses , Fields , and the like , and worshipped God in the Spirit and Truth , and therein waited , preached and prayed , as the Spirit taught them , and gave them utterance , and as they had received the gift , &c. which we own , and many of us suffer for , and which our Persecutors will not in words seem to deny , when ▪ t is put to them , nor say that their Lyturgy , or publick Service or Prayer — does not allow of that Worship or Religious Exercise which is according to the Scriptures , which stands in the Spirit and in the Truth ; for they would be taken as those that own the Scriptures for their Rule , and their Lyturgy not to disown the Scriptures , and yet persecute and oppress us for practising according to what is written 〈◊〉 the Scriptures , in point of Worship , as therein we are led by the Spirit of Truth : For though the Devices , Ceremonies and Traditions of men in matter of Worship , and formal praying and confessions , &c. we cannot be tied unto , lest we should quench or limit the Spirit of prayer and supplication , which God hath poured upon us , ( which to do , were against God and his Worship , and so Antichristian ) yet the Lyturgy , as it allows of the Scriptures both to be read and practised , it must consequently allow of what the Scriptures allow of ; and though we meet not at those places called Churches , ( which were the Popes Mass-houses ) yet the Religious Exercise and Worship we are in , is according to the Scriptures of Truth , and therefore should not be disallowed of by the Lyturgy , nor any Law made by man whatsoever , whether it be called Civil or Ecclesiastical : for the Law of God ( in which our eternal felicity is concerned ) hath no man power to dispence withal , nor ought any Law to oppose it . And though it may be objected , That we do not worship or pray in the express form of the Lyturgy ; It does not follow that what we do , is not allowed of by it : for diversities of forms , or varieties of things , do not make such a disallowance between them ; for where the disallowance is , there must be a prohibition ; but neither the Lyturgy , nor those that conform to it , will seem to disallow or prohibit the reading or practising what is written in the Scriptures of Truth ; and therefore how unreasonable a thing is it that they should go about to destroy their fellow-Creatures ( who are both free-born Englishmen , and Christians in life ) for worshipping God according to the Scriptures , according to which we can prove our practice , if so much Reason and Equity might be admitted of , as that the case might be fairly discussed between Us and our Adversaries . And if the practice and Canons of the Church of England should be objected against us , &c. Wherein they are alledged or brought against what we practise according to the Scriptures of Truth , ( which the Lyturgy in many places doth both allow of , and refer to ) they are insignificant , and so far contradictory to the Lyturgy : For if it saith , The Scriptures are written for our learning , and that the Worship of God is perfect freedom , and that his Church is governed and sanctified by his Spirit , and that men ought to perform duty to God at all times and in all places ; and we for worshipping God in the Spirit , and freedom of it , be persecuted and oppressed under pretence of not conforming to the Practice or Canons of the Church ; how will these hang together ? and what confusion is it , that men should pretend to a Divine Service , and their Practice and Proceedings contradict it ? or be contrary to much of the matter contained in their Divine Service , especially in the Collects , wherein many Scriptures pertinent to our Case , are made use of ? And moreover , How many Innocent Men in this Nation have suffered both from the Temporal Courts , and Spiritual Courts ( so called ) for their obeying God in his Way and Spiritual Worship ? As , some have had their Goods taken , and others imprisoned for meeting together in the Worship of God apart from those places called Churches , ( knowing that God is not to be limited to a place ) and at the same time when they have suffered upon that account , ( to loss of Goods and Imprisonment ) they have been proceeded against in the Spiritual Courts , ( so called ; ) and so double snares laid upon them to encrease their suffering : Is this Christian-like ? or the way to establish a Church or Religion ? No , no ; It 's the way to set all Sober and Moderate Men further off , and the more to make them believe that that Building or House is upon no good Foundation , that must be thus propt or maintained with Persecution , and such ha●sh Proceedings ; and whilst men are seeking out and contriving snares one after another , and many times will not stick to their own Law , when they have made it , ( if they think it not severe enough ) but if they can finde any more severe to afflict their fellow-Creatures by , for their Conscience , they 'l make use of that : This shews want of Tenderness , Love or Pity to the Creation of God , and manifests exceeding hardness of Heart , which the Righteous God sees and takes notice of . And what Decrees soever be made against us , whilst Reason is pretended as the ground of all Laws , ( and which there is an appearance or shew of , in the Preambles of Laws , as shewing the Cause of them ) there is none in Reason or Equity that can reach us : and if one be devised after another against us , the Lord will clear us , and none ought in Equity or Reason to be inflicted upon us , we being innocent in our Behaviour , and peaceable in our Deportment , which answereth our Principle ; so that whilst we do suffer , it is clearly for Conscience-sake , and for serving and worshipping the Living God , though we and our Cause be mis-represented by our Persecutors , whose Spirits and Proceedings are against God , his Truth and Worship , by their persecuting tender Consciences ; though they would not be seen to persecute upon that account , but as being Seditious or Rebellious , ( when no such thing can be proved against us ) which is worse than the Heathen , or King Darius his Presidents , Princes and Counsellours , that sought occasion against Daniel : For when they could find no occasion against him concerning the Kingdom , ( or Civil matters ) but he was faithful , neither was there any error or fault found in him ; then they took occasion against him for praying to God , to have a Decree made against him : and so did not set a false gloss upon their proceedings , to render him criminal or obnoxious to the Government , but cleared him from that , but in their way dealt plainly , Dan. 6. saying , We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel , except we find it against him concerning the Law of his God , which Law he chused to obey and to suffer for , rather then any contrary Decree of man , as we have chosen , who suffer for obeying the Law of God ; and none other occasion have our Persecutors against us , what ever falsly and unrighteously be pretended against us . And whereas some have alleaged that Scripture , Ezra . 7. 26. where Artaxerxes King of Persia said unto Ezra , Whosoever will not do the Law of thy God , and the Law of the King , let Judgement be executed speedily upon him , whether it be unto Death , or to Banishment , or to Confiscation of Goods , or to Imprisonment , &c. This makes nothing for them that persecute , imprison , or go about to banish , or destroy innocent persons for obeying the Law of God in Spiritual Matters ; for here he prefers the Law of God , and takes it and the Law of the King together , ( as supposing that the Law of the King was not to contradict the Law of God ) and the executing of judgement ( though the Kings Law might relate to civil things ) was not to contradict the Law of God , for the King did refer it to such Judges as knew the Law of God , vers . 25. and that they might teach them ; so as he was more ingenuous and moderate then those that will not suffer our Case ( when upon our Tryal ) to be examined or disputed , whether it be according to the Law of God and Christ , or not , which we are willing to be tryed by . Now , O England , and thy Rulers , consider these things , and what you are a doing ; and consider your sad estate and condition , whiles endeavours are used amongst you to root out the Righteous out of the Nation , and to make them Transgressors , when nothing of the breach of any just and civil Law , either of God or man can be proven against them ; for these things God will assuredly visit , who hath a people among those you persecute that are dear unto him , who can neither comply with mens wills or wayes , contrary to his Light or Law in them , nor be leavened with that Spirit of envy and prophaness which is broken forth , to the dishonour of God and his Name ; and if God had not destroyed Sodom , had there been ten righteous persons in it , what will become of you , if you go on to root out and banish or destroy such as fear God , and live righteously and soberly amongst men , against whom you have no occasion , but concerning the Law of God , and his Worship ? Therefore repent , repent , and fear and dread the Living God! for a heavy day will come upon all Sion's Oppressors , and all Workers of Iniquity , who , because that judgement is not speedily executed upon them , their hearts are hardened , and set in them to do wickedly . From a tryed Servant of the Lord , in suffering with his Seed , for his Name and Worship . G. W. 
A65850	----	A Christian epistle to Friends in general of weighty concern, for their present and future peace and safety from the soul's adversary's subtill devices and snares of death. To be carefully communicated to the children of light, and professors thereof every where. Being faithfully given forth, and recommended from the spirit of Christ; by his servant George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1689 Approx. 30 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65850 Wing W1906 ESTC R220965 99832348 99832348 36821 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65850) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 36821) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2103:15) A Christian epistle to Friends in general of weighty concern, for their present and future peace and safety from the soul's adversary's subtill devices and snares of death. To be carefully communicated to the children of light, and professors thereof every where. Being faithfully given forth, and recommended from the spirit of Christ; by his servant George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 15, [1]p. Printed by Andrew Sowle: and sold at the Three-Keys in Nags-Head-Court in Grace-Church-Street, [London] : 1689. Signed on p. 15: G. Whitehead. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Redemption -- Early works to 1800. Light -- Religious aspects -- Early works to 1800. Inner Light -- Early works to 1800. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Christian Epistle TO FRIENDS . In General , Of weighty Concern , for their present and future Peace and Safety from the Soul's Adversary's subtil Devices and Snares of Death . To be carefully Communicated to the Children of Light , and Professors thereof every where . Being Faithfully given forth , and Recommended from the Spirit of Christ ; By his Servant George Whitehead . Matth. 26. 41. Watch and Pray — Praying always — Ephes. 6. 18. With all Prayer and Supplication in the Spirit — And watching thereunto with all Perseve●ance . Printed by Andrew Sowle : And sold at the Three-Keys in Nags-Head-Court in Grace-Church-Street , 1689. A Christian EPISTLE to Friends in General , &c. Dear and Tenderly Beloved Friends , and Called of God every where ; IN a real and deep sence of my Heavenly Fathers Love and tender Mercy revealed through his most dear Son , our ever blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ , which I am ( with many more ) livingly made a partaker of , doth my Life and Spirit very dearly and tenderly salute you , as truly and most heartily wishing and praying , that divine Grace , Mercy and Peace , with all Spiritual Blessings and Divine Favours in Christ Jesus , may be encreased and multiplyed among you , and unto you , to your great Consolation , Peace and Prosperity in the Love of God. Dear Friends , I finding for some time of late a living and holy constraint and pressure of Spirit to communicate some things of weight and concern unto you , respecting your Safety , Peace and Prosperity in the blessed unchangeable Truth , am opened and encouraged by the precious Life and Spirit of our God , to be clear and free therein towards you all , and that in discharge of my tender Conscience in the sight and presence of the God of my Life , whom I serve with my Spirit in the Gospel of his dear Son , as I have sincerely done from my Youth upward , blessed be his pure Name forever . And having had these many Years experience in the weighty Service of the Lord our God through manifold ▪ Exercises , Burthens , Spiritual Travels and Oppositions , I may not hide my Talent , nor conceal those things my Lord and Master requires me to divulge for the Safety and Good of his People in their several Conditions , States and Attainments , as having long and truly seen the goodness of the Lord in the Land of the Living , and the good and blessed Estate of his chosen and faithful Ones ; for which I praise the Name of the Lord my Redeemer , in whom I have believed through his divine Goodness , never to be forgotten by any of us ; as also being not ignorant of , or unaquainted with the many Wiles , various Workings and Depths of Satan , the great Adversary of mans Felicity , and of the Peace of God's People , who worketh upon the divers Inclinations , mutable Affections , Wills , Weaknesses and Infirmities of the Sons of Men , to deceive , pervert , deprave and corrupt them , that they may the more easily be led captive by him at his Will , in their following their own unsubjected Wills and Spirits . You therefore ( my dear Friends ) who have livingly felt , and tasted of the Lord's Power and Goodness , and known his Work in your Hearts , in order to your Deliverance and Redemption out of the Evil World , and the Corruptions thereof , prize his tender Mercies and Goodness , and forget them not : Let the holy fear of the Lord God be your Treasure and true Wisdom , and Understanding , the Stability of your times in Righteousness : Let your sincere Love to the pure Name and Truth of the Lord , and one unto another be continued in that unchangeable Truth and Power of an Endless Life , whereunto the Lord hath called us ; and I pray God increase your Love and Zeal for his Glorious Name and Christian Tenderness , and Brotherly Affection one towards another , that Life for evermore may be your Blessing and Portion , as it will be to all them who dwell in Amity , true Love , and Unity of Spirit in our Lord Jesus Christ , which is a most joyful , comfortable and blessed state , which too many Professors of Truth are short of , for want of keeping near to the Lord , in his holy fear & Love of his blessed Name and Truth , whose negligence and unfaithfulness to Truth in themselves hath caused a decay of Love , & want of Charity towards others ; and then instead of humbly waiting and depending upon the Lord , some have exalted themselves in a Self-will , Self-conceit , & Affection to preheminence in judgment over others , until thereby Divisions and Self-separations have been caused and stirred up by them , to the great grief of the Spirits of the upright , who have kept their Integrity to the Lord , his Truth and People . And this Self-Exaltation , slighting and contemning others , have been , and are the great Evils , Snares and Engines wherewith the Adversary catches them that never were throughly subjected into true Humility , Mortification , true Self-denial , or dying with Christ ; such , though under Profession of Truth , may make a great shew and flourish for a time in outward appearance , Leaves and Blossoms , yet they bring not forth Fruit ▪ unto perfection , or ripeness in Christ. Therefore beware of Self-exaltation , beware of an Earthly Spirit entring , beware of Covetousness ▪ which is Idolatry : Let not the Earth interpose betwixt any of your Souls , and the brightness of that divine Glory which has appeared even in our Day and Times . Spiritual Gifts may be lost , or fallen short of , if the Fountain of them , the holy Spirit of Life it self , be not diligently minded & followed ; and where Love towards God and his Truth decays in any , their love towards his Servants and People grows cold , and then their Gifts decrease and dye , as the Life of them is withdrawn or departed from , or that Love lost which is the more excellent way ; for If I want Charity ( or Love ) I am nothing . What Gifts , Openings , Discoveries , Visions , Revelations , Wisdom , Knowledge or Understanding soever any have , yet still 't is the heavenly Root must bear them , they must keep low their Minds and Spirits to that from whence Life and Love springs , or else they fall , wither , dye and become empty , uncharitable and hard-hearted ; and there the Enemy has his Evil Ends upon them , in betraying them , and corrupting their minds from the Truth , from Life , from Love , from the Innocency and Simplicity which is in Christ , the Way , the Truth and the Life ; and there 's a danger in being too early and forward to censure and judge others , and in judging , censuring and undervaluing others Gifts , Ministry and Labour● whom God hath called into his Work and Service ; for some whereby may either lose their own Gifts , Life and Strength , or fall short of those heavenly Gifts , which otherwise they might attain to , if they kept low and tender in Humility , Love & Society with their Brethren , whereby they might also be serviceable with them : For I have seen in my time some who never passed through Judgment in themselves , yet very censorious , judging , detracting and whispering against their Brethren , slighting them , their Ministry and Labours , who themselves have greatly lost by it ; and God in displeasure hath suffered them to discover their own weakness and nakedness , for their own abasement under the righteous Judgment of Truth . And 't is evident from this kind of exalted censorious , whispering and envious Spirit ( which worketh not for Love and Union ) have proceeded the several Divisions , Schisms and Separations which have happened , to the great trouble of the Church of Christ in our days , as in the Primitive Christians days . And the several sorts of Apostates & Backsliders from Truth shew what , and what kind and manner of Spirit they went and go out in by their Works and Fruits , whether in a Spirit of Pride and Ambition , in a Spirit of Envy and Hypocrisie , in a scornful contemning Spirit , in a covetous earthly Spirit , in a loose prophane Spirit , or in a drunken debauched Spirit of Ranterism and fleshly Liberty , which come all from one evil Root and Seed , according to the various corrupt Inclinations and Wills of Men , upon which the Enemy works and appears with Baits and Temptations suitable thereunto , that he may prevail the more . And 't is certain , that the envious Apostates , and wilful Adversaries were the most troublesome to the Primitive Churches of Christ and his holy Apostles in their day , and so in ours . Therefore blessed and truly happy are they that keep their Habitations in the Truth and love of God , and live in Christian Love and Charity one towards another ; for such walk in the Light , where there 's no occasion of stumbling , or scandal . And as 't was Evidence unto the Primitive Christians , that they were passed from Death to Life , because they loved the Brethren , and that they had purified their Souls through their Obedience of the holy Spirit unto unfeigned Love of the Brethren . Even so now the same Evidence & Testimony remains and lives in and for all them that dwell in the Love of God one towards another : For all Envy , Prejudice , Back-bitings , Whisperings , Tale-carrying , Lying , Heats , Passions , Provocations , Reviling , Railing , Clamours , Scorn , Contempt , ill Language , Flattery and Hypocrisie , are to be utterly put away , avoided , judged , condemned , and forever excluded the Camp of God , for they proceed from the false and degenerate Birth , evil Seed and Spirit , and not from the true Seed or Birth which is Innocent , and hurts no body by Word or Action , in Person , Name , Reputation or Property , for that 's tender in all these things : For false Reports , Whisperings , Back-bitings and Tale carrying cause Strife and Division , and are condemned by the Law of God and Light of Christ , and expresly forbidden by God himself , Thou shalt not be as one that carries Tales up and down among my People : Thou shalt not receive a false Tale , nor raise a false Report against the Lord's People , nor do his Prophets or Servants any harm . And all who profess the Truth , or make mention of the Name of the Lord among us , ought to watch over their own Spirits , Wills and Passions , and have a care of hurting one another , or crushing any tender Spirit or Plant , or stopping or quenching any Spiritual Gift or Testimony God has given , how little or low soever it may be , or seem ; for some of a tender Spirit are sooner hurt and wounded , than healed . All keep in Christian Humility , Meekness , Patience , Gentleness , and Tender heartedness one towards another . And Elders and Overseers in the Churches of Christ must be Examples of Believers , both in Humllity , Meekness , Patience and Condescention , as Christian Patterns ; and not self-willed , nor soon angry , nor given to Passion , Striving , Heats or Contention : Such Christian Examples and Behaviour in the House and Church of the living God , tends greatly to keep out and prevent Contentions , and contentious Spirits ▪ and to the comfort and encouragement of the upright-hearted , who are willing to serve the Lord , his Truth and people . My dear Friends , the Lord our God has been good to us , a tender Father through all our Tryals , Sufferings and Exercises , in upholding us by his free Spirit , accompanying us with his presence , comforting us in our Afflictions , with his renewed Mercies and multiplied Favours , in preserving us a living people to his praise until this day , and affording us this present Liberty we have of late enjoyed , and do pertake of the benefit and advantage thereof ▪ in our publick , peaceable and Religious Assemblies , for the Exaltation of the glorious Name , holy Truth , and divine Power of the Lord our God. Wherefore we have great cause to prize his tender Mercies and Goodness to us , and walk humbly under the sence thereof , that a right use and improvement may be made of all the Mercies and Priviledges we do enjoy , and such a good use of the present Liberty , as that none grow careless or negligent , indifferent or luke-warm because thereof , nor any to sit ●own at ease in the Flesh , or in the Earth , and therein promise themselves security from further Sufferings or Tryals , because of the late present enjoyment of liberty and ease from Persecution : This is no good use of the present Mercy , nor safe Conclusion , for God has many ways to try his people , and National Calamities and Distresses ( whereof his own people sometimes partake ) are not at an end , nor the Judgments ( incurred by Iniquity ) turned away , because of the continued Provocations , Wickedness , Rebellions against God , their Abominations , Pride , Hypocrisies , Deceits , Falshood and Presumption abounding in this and other professing Nations against the great and righteous God , the Judge of all , who is so long sparing and for bearing , as he is to this Nation , meerly for his small Remnant and Seed's sake , which is already gathered , and to be gathered . Yet the great God will distress Nations , and cause the Earth to tremble before him , and Overturnings and Desolations in the Earth before Calamities are ended , or Christ's peaceable Kingdom be set up more generally in the Earth , or where as yet it is opposed and resisted : For the cause why Wars , Desolations , and the devouring Sword are already in great Judgment entred so many Nations and Countries , is because of the Crying Sins , Great Provocations , Persecutions and Cruelties in the dark Places of the Earth . And dear Friends , Brethren and Sisters , whom I truly love in the Lord , who retain your Integrity and Love in the blessed unchangable Truth , you cannot be unsensible how that the Lord's Harvest is great , and what need of faithful Labourers there now is , an effectual Door being open in this time of Liberty , the Lord in Mercy has granted for the good of many poor Souls , that they may come and receive the Truth in the love of it ; and that they who have been , or are of a fearful Heart , may receive strength , and know the Lord to be their Saviour and Redeemer , in this his Evangelical Day , and free and blessed opportunity he has afforded . And yet though this Harvest be great , the diligent and faithful Labourers are but few now raised up , in Comparison of the greatness of the Harvest , and necessity of the Work , many of our antient Brethren , and faithful fellow-Labourers and Helpers in Christ , being taken away , and gone to their Everlasting Rest , having faithfully served out their Day and Generation , fulfilled and finish'd their Testimony with Joy and Peace , and obtain'd a Crown of Glory that shall never fade away . And this very matter has been often seriously upon my Thoughts , and weighty Considerations , What should be the Cause or Reason why so few faithful Labourers , and clear Gospel Ministers have been of late raised up , or now brought forth ? ( though some be in a good lively Testimony , blessed be the Lord ) and it clearly appears to me ; First , That few are given up in their Spirits for this weighty Service , ( as we were in the beginning ) who are in some measure gifted and qualified . Secondly , Few sincerely seek the Lord , or have waited upon him with fervent Desires , Prayer and Supplication , that they may be gifted , indued and qualified with Power , Wisdom , Faith , Patience , &c. for the Work of the Ministry of Christ Jesus ; whereas if any man want Wisdom , he should ask it of God , and he shall not miss of a gracious answer to the desire of his Soul , who sincerely asks , seeks and knocks at Wisdom's Gate . Whatsoever ye ask in my Name ( saith Christ ) believe that ye shall receive it , and it shall be given you . You know Soloman's Request to the Lord , for an understanding Heart , to discern Judgment , his choice of Wisdom rather than Riches , or long Life , how it pleased God , 1 King. 3. 10. Thirdly , Very few have their Minds and Spirits really and inwardly exercised in frequent Prayer , and daily Supplication to God , or in heavenly Meditation , or spiritual Contemplation in Gods pure and spiritual Laws , Ways , Judgments and Works , or in holy Scriptures , by the holy Spirit , which opens them , but too many have their Minds , Hearts and Affections taken up with these fading Objects and Things below , minding earthly things , or overcharged with the love of Riches , Cares and Cumbers of this Life to compass the Earth , wherein many a good Tallent has been hid , and poor Soul buried in Captivity : Whereas it requires an inward and serious Exercise of Spirit toward God , frequent and servent Prayer and Supplication unto him , an inward and diligent attention upon him , who is the giver of every good and perfect Gift , to obtain both divine Wisdom , and a weighty living clear Evangelical Ministry . For 't is the sanctified Hearts and Souls who truly fear God , into whom only Wisdom entreth , and maketh them Friends of God , and Prophets . The Lord will have an inward spiritual , sincere & zealous People . Oh! Inward watchfulness , Prayer and Supplication to Almighty God have been , and are too much neglected by many ; I pray God they may seriously examine , and find out the causes in themselves with the Light of Christ Jesus , and bring all to the righteous judgment thereof . Fourthly , If any of the younger sort , who are in some measure indued with spiritual Gifts and Knowledge , do let up a slight and dis-esteem in their Minds of their elder Brethren , who are experienced in the Work and Service of God , and keep not in Society or Union with them in the Spirit of Love , and of a sound Mind , but give way unto a singularity , abounding in their own sence , not keeping low and humble before the Lord , nor little in their own Eyes ; such neither grow in Life , nor in divine Openings , nor increase in their Gifts , nor come to attain to a weighty clear Evangelical Ministry and Service , but rather loose , dye and wither , unless they come into true Humility , Self-denyal , Reconciliation , Love and Union with their elder faithful Brethren , who in the love of God would tenderly help them , and not hinder them in the Work and Service of the Lord our God. It is both a great Grief and Scandal also to see many of the younger sort , who frequent our Meetings , and even of Friends Children also , degenerating into Pride , and height of Spirit , and Apparel , so nearly to immitate and border upon the World , as too to many do , contrary to the Gravity , Modesty , Sobriety , Plainness , Simplicity , Innocency and Humility , which Truth requires in Example , as well as in Spirit , and which Truth at first led many into , and as still it doth lead and order them that truly love and obey it : In which I pray God to settle and order his People , and that no plea nor excuse may be made to maintain Pride , Vanity or Immodesty in Apparel , which only gratifies vain airy Minds and Spirits , and the Lust of the carnal Eye , and grieves the tender , and gives occasion of Reproach and Stumbling to them that are without , and to such as are soberly & Religiously inclined . Oh! 't is precious to keep low and humble before the Lord , and to walk as living Examples of Christian Humility ; a lowly Mind is content with low things , and loves plainness . And this is observable , that if never so much be truly and sincerely preached in publick against Pride and Vanity in Apparel , &c. if it be indulged or conived at at home in Children or young Persons , by Parents , Guardians , or Overseers , all Preaching , Instruction and Warning proves to them but as Water spilt upon the Ground , and takes no Impression , whilst through such Encouragement & Indulgence at home , they imbrace a Spirit of Pride & Irreverence towards God , & disregard to his Truth and People ; and though some Formality ; and something of the form of Truth they may have by outward Education , 't is not by the Work of Regeneration , for 't is but few in comparison that really come in at That Door ; and therefore I have had often a Godly Fear upon me of the springing up of degenerate Plants amongst us , and a degenerate Generation to the dishonour of Truth , and our holy Profession after our days . And it 's they who are inclining and getting into the Spirit of the World , and Liberty out of the Truth , who live not in Humility , nor in the Fear of God , that give secret strength to an apostate turbulent Spirit , which has been the Churches Exercise of late Years , and that are most easily catched with that Apostate Spirit , and feigned Words of the Instruments thereof , whose Work is to sow Discord , and make Divisions , Schisms and Separations ( which are Fruits of the Flesh ) for if all had been faithful to the Light , and kept in Humility and Love of Truth , and one another , there had been no Enmity one towards another , nor smiteing of fellow-Servants , but the Fear of God would have preserved them out of those Snares of Death , which that Spirit of Discord leads into . Howbeit , I am well satisfied in the Lord , that he will never suffer a general or final Apostacy or Degeneration ; the Brightness of our Day , and Glory of our Sun of Righteousness shall never be extinguished : Although too many through the Adversary's Subtilty and Temptations , together with their own carnal and corrupt Inclinations , are apt to degenerate , and their Minds to be exalted and alienated from the Fear of God , from the Cross of Christ , from Humility and Lowliness of Mind , from true and Conscientious Tenderness , from love to the Brethren , from Innocency , Plainness and Simplicity that 's in Christ , both in their Spirits , Language and Habits , who therefore ought to be faithfully admonished , and tenderly instructed , by which means ( together with a meek and gentle Behaviour ▪ ) many have been gained , and many may yet be recovered out of the Snares of Satan , who have been taken Captive at unawares ; Having Compassion of some , making a Difference , has often reached the tender part in them ; and in relation to others more deeply prejudiced . I remember a cautious saying of an antient and faithful Brother deceased , viz. Where we cannot make them better , we must take heed we do not make them worse . The Lord keep his People in his holy Fear , watchful and humble before him ▪ in true Love and tender Heartedness , that they may receive Wisdom from him to behave ▪ themselves , and to minister suitably to all conditions . And all dear and tenderly beloved Friends , with all who are effectually convinced of God's holy Truth and Name , and do profess the same : In the holy fear of God , in his Light Watch and Pray constantly ( without fainting ) against your Souls subtil Adversary in all his Attempts to beget into Self-exaltation and Prejudice to smite fellow-Servants , and cause Divisions or Offences ; for that 's the Enemy's Work. And Friends , have not the Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect of Persons : This was antient , and Christian Counsel . So let not the Rich and High contemn the Low and Mean ; let not uncertain Riches puff any up , or exalt them above their Brethren : Nor any Brother of High degree ( in earthly Enjoyments ) slight or contemn their Brethren of low degree , some sincere-hearted and serviceable Friends and Brethren have enjoyed plenty of the World's Goods , and yet through Losses , Sufferings , Disappointments , or other's unjust Dealings by them , are brought low in the World , and they were esteemed when in Prosperity . It would be very Unchristian and Sinful , to slight or dis-esteem them in their Adversity , which is their Tryal : The Poor of this World , who are rich in Faith , whom God hath chosen , are near unto him , their Faith is the more tryed by their Poverty and lowness ; and how soon That may be the tryal of many that are Rich they know not ; therefore 't is very unsafe for any to trust in uncertain Riches , or to be exalted or lifted up because of them , but rather humbly to depend upon the living God , and trust in him , and love & esteem their Brethren in Truth , how mean and low soever in this World , knowing that with God there 's no respect of Persons , not with them who truly bear his Image . And pray Friends , keep out all Disputes and Controversies which some busie Spirits in the World are incident unto , as about outward Revolutions , Governments , State-Affairs , and Kingdoms of this World : Let not their Divisions divide you , nor their Strife and Contentions about the outward Court and forms Religion , earthly Kingdoms and Crowns ( that will fade ) influence any among you , to contend , or become parties about them , but quietly serve and wait upon God in your Places and Stations , where he hath set you , and submissively leave all to his over-ruling Power , Wisdom and Providence , to do or suffer things to come to pass , as he pleaseth ; for none may say to him , What dost thou ? ( Though Men men may be warned as God shall require ) and he knows what 's best for his People , and will cause all things to work together for good to them that love him ; his Kingdom come more and more , his blessed Will be done in Heaven and Earth , who is Judge of all , and sees all Hearts , Intents and Designs of men throughout the whole World. And you know that as we cannot make Flesh our Arm , nor therewith sight for one , or another ; Stillness and Quietness , Innocency and Good-will towards all men according to ▪ our Christian Principle , is therefore the best and savest state and condition , wherein we all may approve our selves as the Lord 's hidden Ones , and of them that are quiet in the Land. Be still , and know that the Lord is God , and that he will be exalted in his everlasting Kingdom and Dominion over all the Kingdoms of men : Neither let the World's Confusions confound you , nor the World's Distractions distract you , or any of you , nor the removing of Mountains in the Earth , remove you from the Lord's Mountain , nor the unstable Waters or tossing Waves toss , you , or influence any of you , to discompose or hurry you from your peaceable Habitations , but keep in your strong-Hold , your Rock and Foundation , Christ Jesus , nor let any thing divert you from minding his Kingdom of Peace above all , which is not of this World , out of which mens Lusts , and the ground and occasion of Wars and Fighting are excluded : For in Salem is his Tabernacle . Oh! let all quietly wait upon the All-seeing , Righteous Holy God , to see his good End through all , and his righteous Determination and Decision of the Controversies amongst men : And keep in Innocency and peaceable Conversation towards all , and Innoffensively under , and towards the Civil Government , giving no real occasion of Offence , but as becomes true Christians walk in Love and Good-Will towards all , both high and low ; for herein hath been , and will be our Safety and Confidence through all our Tryals , being preserved by the Power and Goodness of the Lord our God , as his peculiar People , who is our Stay , our Rock and Refuge , blessed be his Name forever . O! forget not to praise the Lord for all his tender Mercies and peculiar Favours and Goodness in our preservation until this day ; knowing also , that they who sincerely and stedfastly trust in his Name and Power , shall be as Mount Sion , that shall never be removed , and that as his Servant David declared , It is better to trust in the Lord , then to put Confidence in man : It is better to trust in the Lord than to put Confidence in Princes , Psal. 118. 8 , 9. I pray God keep all his People in a steddy Dependance upon him , and Confidence in him to the end . Finally , my tenderly beloved Friends and Brethren , having thus far cleared my Conscience in the sight of God , in the living sence of his Presence and Counsel in these matters , as relating to several States and Dangers , I recommend all to the Faithful and true Witness in themselves , to make the particular and just Application , and to make every one sensible of the weight and lively Impressions of these and all other Christian Cautions and Warnings , proceeding from thence through any of the Servants of Christ , for the Safety and Peace of all the Lord's people among us , even to the least and lowest of his Flock , and those Convinced among us , who are called by his Grace to the Confession of his holy Name and Truth . The God of Peace be with you all , and bless you , and encrease Righteousness , Peace , Love and Union among his People every where , that all may be stedfast in the Truth , true and faithful in their Day and Time , to the end of their Days ; Amen , Amen . London , the 28th of the 7th Month , 1689. Your faithful Friend and Brother in Christ , George Whitehead . THE END . 
A65842	----	A brief discovery of the dangerous principles of John Horne (a priest in Lin) and Thomas Moore junior both teachers of the people called Mooreians or Manifestarians, (and called by some free-willers or independants.) In answer to their book called A brief discovery of the people called Quakers, and a warning to all people to beware of them and of their dangerous principles, &c. Which book is a false narrative of two disputes, the one which they had with John Whitehead at Gedney in Lincoln-shire, and the other with Geo. Whitehead and Geo. Fox the younger, at Lin in Norfolke, both in the seventh moneth, 1659. Also priest Horns testimony against his brethren the priests. This is to go amonst the professors in England in discovery of the truth; ... By the truth which is in George Whitehead. John Whitehead. George Fox the younger. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A65842 of text R220960 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing W1896). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 86 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 22 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A65842 Wing W1896 ESTC R220960 99832343 99832343 36816 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65842) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 36816) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2103:14) A brief discovery of the dangerous principles of John Horne (a priest in Lin) and Thomas Moore junior both teachers of the people called Mooreians or Manifestarians, (and called by some free-willers or independants.) In answer to their book called A brief discovery of the people called Quakers, and a warning to all people to beware of them and of their dangerous principles, &c. Which book is a false narrative of two disputes, the one which they had with John Whitehead at Gedney in Lincoln-shire, and the other with Geo. Whitehead and Geo. Fox the younger, at Lin in Norfolke, both in the seventh moneth, 1659. Also priest Horns testimony against his brethren the priests. This is to go amonst the professors in England in discovery of the truth; ... By the truth which is in George Whitehead. John Whitehead. George Fox the younger. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. Whitehead, John, 1630-1696. aut Fox, George, d. 1661. aut [4], 35, [1] p. Printed for Thomas Simmons at the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate, [London] 1659. The words "George ... younger." on the title page are joined by a left brace. Copy has considerable print show-through. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Horn, John, 1614-1676. -- Breife discovery of the people called Quakers -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Moore, Thomas, d. 1672. -- Breife discovery of the people called Quakers -- Early works to 1800. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. A65842 R220960 (Wing W1896). civilwar no A brief discovery of the dangerous principles of John Horne (a priest in Lin) and Thomas Moore junior, both teachers of the people called Mo Whitehead, George 1659 17260 19 0 0 0 0 0 11 C The rate of 11 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A BRIEF DISCOVERY OF THE Dangerous Principles OF John Horne ( a Priest in Lin ) and Thomas Moore junior , both Teachers of the people called Mooreians or Manifestarians , ( and called by some Freewillers or Independants . ) In Answer to their Book Called A brief Discovery of the People called Quakers , and a Warning to all people to beware of them and of their dangerous principles , &c. Which Book is a false Narrative of two Disputes , the one which they had with John Whitehead at Gedney in Lincoln-shire , and the other with Geo. Whitehead and Geo. Fox the younger , at Lin in Norfolke , both in the seventh Moneth , 1659. Also Priest Horns Testimony against his brethren the Priests . This is to go amongst the Professors in England in Discovery of the Truth ; For in this Answer the Truth is cleared , and John Horne and Tho. Moores Ignorance discovered concerning Perfection , and the Resurrection , and the Body and Blood of Christ , and his Light , and other things of concernment , and their abusing the Truth ( which is set over them and their deceits ) made manifest . By the Truth ▪ which is in George Whitehead . John Whitehead . George Fox the younger . Jer 10. 21. For the Pastors are become bruitish and have not sought the Lord , therefore they shall not prosper , and all their flocks shall be scattered . Printed for Thomas Simmons at the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate , 1659. TO THE READER . THat all People who reads this Treatise may see the confusion and Ignorance of John Horne and Thomas Moore , who long have been owned as eminent Teachers by many that are deceived by them , it is seen sit that they seriously here take a view of some of the Principles affirmed by the said John Horne and Thomas Moore at the dispute that we had with them ( as ordered of the Lord , ) at Lin in Norfolke , the fifteenth day of the seventh Moneth , 1659. for their booke which is hereafter confuted , hath some relation to their Principles , which are laid down as followeth . Thomas Moore affirmed , That sin is a natural Heritage in the believers while they are here . That their nature is restored in Christ , ( speaking of their own nature ) and that their nature is a filthy nature , and Christ took upon him their nature . John Horne , That they that had no guile in them had sin in them ; That every sin is not guile . T. M. That the blood of Christ shed is not in his Person in heaven , but the virtue of it . T. M. That the blood of Christ shed is the foundation of their faith , ( but where it is they answered not , nor could they tell . ) T M. That the Life of Christ is not in the bloud of Christ , ( so from this then the foundation of their faith hath not the Life of Christ in it . ) T. M. That the Light with which Christ lighteth every man is both natural and spiritual . T. M. That the Person of Christ ( viz. of flesh and bone ) is a quickening spirit and dwells in the believers by faith ; and to prove it , he said That the Corinthians dwelt in the heart of Paul . J. H. To that of 1 Cor. 15. 45. The last Adam was made a quickening spirit , John Horne said That he was distinct from the Eternal Spirit . T , M. To prove sin a natural heritage in believers so long as they are here , he brought that of Rom. 7. 17. These Doctrines ( with many such like ) were taken notice of by many as they were asserted by the said John Horne and Thomas Moore , and contradicted by the Truth at the Dispute aforesaid , wherein it is so easie to see their darknesse and confusion , that we need say little about them at present , but proceed to Answer their Booke which in effect hath the very same Doctrines in it , with many such like ; so that we desire that our following Answer may be seriously read without prejudice or envy against us , and let the Light of Christ judge between us and our Accusers ; whereby the Readers hereof may see the errours and confusions of these men aforesaid confuted by the Truth , and us who love it cleared from their slanders and revilings . ANd now John Horne and Thomas Moore , you have charged us called Quakers , with being guilty of great errors . 1. In that you say we plead for , and maintain a perfection of sinlessnesse in our selves in this life ; and to prove this a great Error , you say that the Apostles never said of themselves , or any other man or woman besides Christ . Jesus , that they had no sin in in them . Answ. Here you are found in the great Error your selves , who deny the perfection of sinlesnesse in the believers in this life ; the Apostle said , he that believeth hath the witnesse in himself , 1 John 5. 10. which witnesse is perfect and sinlesse , so not without the perfection of sinlesnesse , and he that believeth , hath obtained witnesse that he is righteous , and having this perfect witnesse in himself , he is not without the perfection and purity of it in himself , for the witnesse of God cannot be divided from the nature of it , and John said ( speaking of Christ ) as he is , so are we in this world , 1 John 4. 17. so you have manifestly wronged both us and the Apostles , and we do not say that there is any perfection in ourselves without Christ who is our righteousnesse , and we the righteousnesse of God in him . Again to prove our maintaining perfection in this life an Errour , you say Christ was manifested to take away sin , and in him is no sin . 1 John 3. but never is it said so of any other , and that it is no where said by any one of the Saints of themselves , or of any of their Brethren , that they had no sin in them , or were not sinners . Answ. Here you would accuse the Saints or Brethren with having sin in them , and with being sinners while in this life ; But mark how fairly you have contradicted your own doctrine , you tell us , It is said indeed , that he that abideth in him sinneth not , and he that is born of God , doth not commit or worksin , because the seed of God abides in him ; neither can he sin , that is , commit , work , or yield up to sin , because he is born of God , you say : So you may here see what J. Horn , and T. Moore have confessed , that he that abideth in Christ sinneth not , and that he that is born of God cannot sin , nor yield up to sin , because his seed remains in him ; whereas before they have counted our maintaining a perfection of sinlesness in this life a great errour , and would accuse the Saints and Brethren with being sinners ; so any that are not wholly blind may see their confusion , and how they have broken themselves upon the stone which they have been making warre against ; for if Christ be made manifest to take away sin , then they in whom he is made manifest are not to have sin remaining in them so long as they are in this life ; and if he that is born of God cannot sin , nor yield up to sin ; then he is not a sinner , but clear and perfect from sin , And whosoever sinneth hath neither seen Christ nor known him . Now they that affirm that the Saints or they that be born of God are sinners , they might as well say that the Saints have neither seen Christ nor known him ; And where it is said , he that is born of God cannot sin , John Horn and Thomas Moore have given their meaning to it , which is , it 's no more then a man acted and led of God cannot therein sin they say ; which is no more then to say , that a man that is acted of God cannot sin in being acted of God , or he that doth righteousness doth not sin in so doing ; so that still they reserve an accusation against him that is born of God for being a sinner ; whereas John saith , be not deceived , he that doth righteousness is righteous even as Christ is righteous in whom is no sin , 1 John 3. 7 , 8. And now further see how they have accused the Apostle Paul . J. Horn and T. Moores words are these ; Yea in 1 Tim. 1. 16. he saith he was then , when an Apostle , the chief of sinners . Answ. So here they have accused Paul to be the chief of sinners when an Apostle , when as the same Apostle saith in that 1 Tim. 1. 12. That Christ counted him faithful , putting him into the Mi●istry ; but these accusing Paul then to be the chief of sinners , when an Apostle , they might as well say , that he that is faithful to Christ is the chief of sinners , when as it is said that Christ came to save sinners , of whom I am chief , and saith , he had obtained mercy ; now it doth not follow that Paul was then one of the chief or greatest sinners when faithful , but he was one of the chief of sinners that were saved by Christ , who saveth his people from their sins , and doth not suffer them to remain the greatest sinners when they are saved from sin , as they here have accused Paul . And as for these Scriptures you bring , 1 John 1. 8 , 9 , 10. and James 3. 1 , 2. these prove not what you would have them , that the Saints were not perfectly freed from sin in this life ; they did not preach up sin , and imperfection to remain in them while in this life as you do , for both James and John exhorteth them otherwise for said James , let patience have her perfect work , that you may be perfect and entire , wanting nothing , James 1. 4 ▪ and John said , If we walk in the light as he is in the light , we have fellowship one with another , and the Blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin , 1 John 1. 7. and chap. 2. 1. My little children , these things write I unto you that ye sin not , and if any man sin we have an Advacate with the Father . So he did not include them all as to remain sinners , for they were all sinners while they were not cleansed by the blood of Christ . Now we ask these men aforesaid , seeing Paul was counted faithfull , and James a servant of Jesus Christ , and John the beloved of Christ , what one sin or sins can they lay to their charge , or to any of them which they were not freed from before their decease ? let them prove some sin which was not destroyed in any of these before their decease , ( and who can lay any thing to the charge of Gods elect ? ) let them speak out and answer directly , or for ever be silent from pleading for sin and accusing the righteous as they have done ; John did not say , if we say we are not all sinners , we deceive our selves , but if we say we have no sin , and if we say we have not sinned , which if the little children whom John wrote unto that they might not sin , had sin , then John might say we have sin , for he numbred himself with them as friends , or those whose sins were forgiven , and yet the young men and Fathers he wrote to had overcome the wicked one , and had the word of God abiding in them , 1 John 2. and as for that of Prov. 20. 9. who can say I have made my heart clean ? this is not against us , for we do not say that we our selves have made our hearts clean , it being Christs work to cleanse , and for ever to have perfected them that are sanctified , Heb. 10. 14. and Solomon saith , the just man walketh in his Integrity , and the righteousnesse of the perfect shall direct his way , Prov. 11. 5. and 20. 7. And as for that of Eccle● . 7. he saith , all things have I seen in the dayes of my vanity ; there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousnesse , and a wicked man that prolongeth his life in wickednesse , but he that feareth the Lord shall come out of them all , forthere is not a just man upon earth : Mark for there among them that were in the changeable state , not among them that are borne of God , for they cannot sin , because the Seed of God abides in them , and they in it , neither can the wicked one touch them , 1 John 5. 18. J. Horn and T. Moore say , There is no man that sinneth not ; It is true indeed that Christ said of Nathaniel , that he was an Israelite in whom was no guile , John 1. 47. Answ. Here you may see how they are confounded , in what they themselves bring , there was some in whom was no guile , contrary to what they affirmed before against perfection ; and as for that 1 King. 8. 6. it is said , if they sin against thee , for there is no man that sinneth not ; Mark the words ( for there ) again , among them that sinned against God , and this was in the time of the old Covenant Solomon spoke these words , which Covenant they brake ; but now the Lord makes a new Covenant with his people , when he takes away their sins , not according to the old Covenant which the Israelites brake , Heb. 8. and Solomon also said , let your heart be perfect with the Lord your God , and walk in his Statutes , and to keep his Commandements , as at this day , 1 King 8. 61. J. Horn saith , It is not said that there was no sin in Nathaniel , and though I pleaded that all sin is guile , yet the contrary was testified from 1 Pet. 2. 1 , 2. where hypocrisie , and envie , and malice , and evill speakings are distinguished from Guile , Guile being a deceitful hiding a mans sin or deceit . Answ. Here John Horne would accuse Nathaniel to have sin in him , when as Christ said there was no Guile in him , John 1. 47. and so here he hath affirmed as much as that all sin is not Guile , and so would distinguish hypocrisy and envie from being guile , and yet confesseth Guile to be a deceitful hiding a mans sin or deceit ; now let any that have understanding see these mens ignorance ; what is not hypocrisy a deceitful hiding a mans sin ? and is not every sin deceit , and deceit Guile ? see their confusion ; and this being John Hornes reason to prove all sinne not Guile , because it is said in 1 Pet. 2. 1 , 2. laying aside all malice , and all guile ( mark all guile ) and hypocrisy , the word ( and being his distinction , he might as well say that envie is not malice , because there is ( and ) between them , but in that thing many saw his folly at the dispute , in his affirming that all sin is not guile , when as all guile doth only include one sin as he would have it ; but all sin , and any one sin makes a man guilty , and so he hath guile in him , so that he that had no guile in him , had no sin in him , and also John Horne hath turned George Whiteheads words about this thing , in saying that be said Guile is a transgression of the Law , therefore guile is all sin , which is falsely framed , for the words were to this effect , every trangression of the Law is guile or sin , and all guile includes all transgression of the Law , therefore every sin is guile , and what sin can they prove had Nathaniel in him when he had no guile in him ? they must either prove some sin that was then in him , or else see themselves confuted . J. Horne and T. Moore in the 3. and 4. pages of their Book , say : That in the Declaration by Edward Burrough page 4. that we believe the Saints upon earth may be perfectly freed from the body of sin and death , herein we are concluded to be Preachers of Lyes and Errors ( this they charge the Quakers with ) and yet they say , We are compleat in Christ , and by the Grace of Christ received , shall be and may be here made perfect hearted with Christ , but that some are sinlesse here , neither Christ , nor any Apostle or Prophet ever preached of any , therefore the Quakers are deceivers . Ans. Here they might as well have accused the true Prophets and Apostles with being Preachers of Lyes , and deceivers , for they witnessed to the same the Quakers witnesse to , as said the Prophet , blessed are the undefiled in the way ( mark undefiled in the way ) they also do no iniquity , Psal. 119. 1 , 2 , 3. and saith the Lord , ye shall be clean from all your filthinesse , Ezek. 36. 25. and Christ exhorted his to be perfect , as their heavenly Father is perfect , Matt. 5. 48. and every one that is perfect shall be as his Lord , and the same Apostle who said , ye are compleat in Christ , said in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands , in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh , Col. 2. 10 , 1. Now the same spirit in J. Horne and T. Moore , that hath accused the Quakers with being deceivers , for bearing witnesse to these Truths , would have accused the true Prophets , Christ and his Apostles for being deceivers ; but their confusion and railing against the Innocent is here made manifest , who notwithstanding have confessed a compleatnesse and perfect heartednesse with Christ here , and so in pleading for sin in this life , are sighting against their own words , for they who are compleat in Christ , are perfectly freed from sin , being compleat in Christ in whom there is no sin ; and know this , that sinners are out of the compleatnesse which the Saints have in Christ , and the heare that hath sin dwelling in it is not perfect ; much more might be said to this . John Horne and Thomas Moore p. 3. to prove , that they who have believed in Christ , comes not to prove the first Adams state before the fall ; say , that Adam before his fall had neither sin in him , nor death upon , but surely the Quakers must die as well as other mens Adam also before his fall was under a Covenant of works , doe this and live , and might possibly sin and dye , but not so the believers . Answ. Mark their heap of confusion here , they own that the Believers in Christ are come to a further state or Covenant then Adam was in before the fall , who then had no sin in him , and yet have accused the Believers with having the body of sin , or not being perfect while they are here ; and Adam might possibly sin and dye , but not so the Believers they say ; And as for the Quakers dying , because of which they would accuse them with being sinners , here their darknesse appears , for Believers dying the natural death , doth not prove them sinners while they are here , for through death they gain more of the Peace and Glory of God which they partake of in their life time , and what doth John Horne believe that Adam might not have dyed the natural death if he had not sinned ? for Christ dyed who had no sin , that he might destroy the death which came by sin , and him that hath the power of it , and they who dye in the Lord are blessed , and to dye is gain unto them , Phil. 1. 2● . so that righteous mens dying was not charged upon them as a reward for their sin , but witnessed to be gain unto them , before whose decease their sins are done away , and he that believeth hath everlasting life , yet the wages of sin is death to them who are not freed from it by the gift of God which is life ; and God said to Adam in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely dye ; but Adam lost not his natural life in the day he eat of the tree of knowledge , for after that he lived in the body ; and as for the Covenant that Adam was under before the full , it was a Covenant of life ; for he was in the image of God , and a living soule , having the breath of life in him , and had dominion in it while he stood in his habitation , and this state have the true Believers proved and witnessed that life , and nature , & image that was in man before the fall , though they be come further in the second Adam , who is greater then the first Adam ; and as for Adam before the fall , being under a Covenant of works do this and live ( as if he had not lived when he was in innocency , till he did something to merit life ) you have here spoken ignorantly , for that Covenant of works was established by the Law after the fall , and the Law entered because of transgression till the Seed came , which Seed destroyes sin and redeems the Creature out of the fall , and out of the death which came by sin . P. 4. And in their second charge against us called Quakers , J. Horne and T. Moor have accused us to be reprobates concerning faith , as touching he person of Christ ; for they say , we did not , nor could be brought to acknowledge that Christ is glorified in the heavens , without all men , the heavens above the clouds , and distinct from the visible earth in the same body which suffered , was crucified , dead and buried , &c. And this have they questioned several times altering their own words , and then in page 5. asking whether Christ hath any body of flesh and bones , distinct from all other bodies and spirits of men , to which they say , we would by no means be drawn to give a direct answer . But then mark how they have again contradicted themselves ; they say , that we said the same body that suffered was glorified at Gods right hand in heaven ; yet still ( they say ) we meant but his Church either by his body or by the heavens , and then they charge it upon us as a fundamental error . Answ. Now they that discerne the body of Christ , may see how these wise men of Babylon have confounded and stifled themselves in their own confusion , one while saying that we would not be drawn to answer their question , another while confessing that we said the same body that suffered , was glorified at Gods right hand in heaven , and now when they can get nought against our words , they charge us ignorantly with what we meant , and here it appears they hold that Christ hath two bodies , in telling of a mystical body , and not receiving that as an answer that his body is the Church , the fulness of him that filleth all in all , so that from their words they would have Christ to have a body besides ( or distinct from ) the fulness of God , when as the Scripture doth not say that Christ hath two bodies , nor that his body is a body of flesh and bones without the blood in it in the Heavens , as John Horne and Thomas Moore have told us , for its not proper to say that a body of flesh and bones is in the Heavens , as if it were in many places at once , for Heavens are more then one , and the body is one and hath many members , 1 Cor. 12. 12. and this body is not carnal but spiritual , which they who were carnal as these men are , could not discern , though the outward bodies of believers they might discern , and yet this body of Christ is discerned by the believers who are led by the Spirit of God , and its in the heavens above the clouds , which they who are gazing abroad and looking carnally to see Christ they discern not the Lords body , for they see not thorow the Clouds into the Heavens , so Christ is taken out of their sight ; But Stephen who was full of the Holy Ghost saw the heavens opened , and the Son of man on the right hand of his Father , and John in the spirit saw into heaven , and a door opened in heaven ; and Christs body is not distinct from the spirits of all men , as it is distinct from carnal bodies , as you imagine by your Question ; for the just men who are come unto mount Zion where the Lamb Reigneth in his glory , I say their spirits rejoyce in him , and the true Church in Christ which discerneth his body in his fulness , is but one compleat body in the fulness of God which filleth all in all ( both in Heaven and Earth ) though you imagine two bodies of Christ . And this know , that what the Scriptures do declare of Christ and his body we own ; and the same that descended into the lower parts of the Earth is he that Ascended far above all Heavens that he might fill all things ; the same Christ that suffered in the body at Jerusalem who appeared in divers forms after his Resurrection , and in the transfiguration before , the same rose again , and was taken in his Ascending out of the sight of them that gazed after him , and is glorified in the same glory which he had with the Father before the world was , John 17 and as he who is the Word became flesh , so when the dayes of his flesh were finished he was translated into his own glory which he had with his Father from Eternity , and so the second Adam is a quickening spirit and his body is spiritual , not discerned by you whose minds are out from his spirit , neither can his glory by which he was transfigured and is glorified , be seen , but by them who pass thorow death , and follow him into the mount . And now you who so much contend about the body of Christ , we ask you this Question ; whether do you believe that the body of Christ which the Saints upon earth do discern , and which the world cannot discern , is a body of flesh and bones in the Heavens yea or nay ? seeing you own the believers or the Church to be a body of Christ , and plead for another body of Christ distinct from them . John Horn and Thomas Moore , p. 5. Say that believers are members of his body ( namely his mystical body ) of his flesh and of his bones , not flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone . Answ. This is grosse confusion to say that believers are members of Christs flesh and bones , and then to say they are not flesh of his flesh , and bone of his bone , as if Christ had two bodies of flesh and bones , one of which the Saints are not members , when the Apostle saith as much as they were flesh of his flesh , and bone of his bone , in his saying no man ever hated his own flesh but nourisheth it , and cherisheth it even as the Lord the Church , for we are members of his body , of his flesh & of his bones , Eph. 5. 30. J. Horn , & Tho. Moore bring 1 Thes. 4. 15. 16. and Phil. 3. 20. 21. where it is said Christ shall descend from Heaven ; not from but to his Church ( say they ) yea this of the Quakers denying that body glorified doth at once turn up by the roots all the faith of Christs appearing in the presence of God to mediate for us . Ans Was there ever the like confusion and falshood uttere'd , as these men do appear in ? a little before they say of the Quakers , that they said the same body that suffered was glorified at Gods right hand in Heaven ; and now charge us with denying that body glorified , it were well they would be ashamed of their lies and confusion ; and as for that , 1 Thes. 4. 15. Concerning the coming of the Lord from Heaven , which these men aforesaid would blindly put afar of , as to a coming of Christ with flesh and bones , the Apostle saith we which are alive & remain unto the coming of the Lord , shall not prevent them which are a sleep ; so that coming of Christ , the Saints who then were alive remained unto it : and in that of Phil. 3. 20. 21. there it is said our conversation is in Heaven from whence also we look for the Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ ; so their conversation was in Heaven , and there they looked for the Saviour , they did not say their conversation was at a distance off above the Clouds , from whence you look for a Christ like your selves ( but that he hath no blood in his body as you imagine ) whom we desire not the knowledge of , and that your Faith which is not grounded in Christs appearing in you , is to be turned up by the roots . Again , J. Horn and T. Moor do accuse us to be Reprobate concerning the Faith touching the Resurrection of the dead , as chiefly they accuse us for affirming that the same body that dyes shall not be raised again , and that George Fox would not be brought to say , whether the spiritual body was ever dead , but answered in general equivocal terms . Answ. They have changed G. Foxes words ; for he said , That which is raised is a spiritual body , and that which is raised was dead ; and we answered them plainly to these things according to the Scriptures , but like fools whom the Apostle reproved , they would not be satisfied when we told them it is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body , and receives life and spirit by the Power of God ; there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body , howbeit that was not first which is spiritual but that which is natural , and afterward that which is spiritual ; so the Apostle distinguisheth between the natural body and the spiritual body , between the earthly bodies and the heavenly bodies , and the glories of each , and doth not say , that which dyes or is sown which is earthly shall rise , as we told these said accusers according to the Apostles comparison , thou fool , that which thou sowest is not quickned except it dye , and that which thou sowest thou sowest not that body that shall be , ( mark , thou sowest not that body that shall be ) but bear grain it may chance of wheat or of some other grain , 1 Cor. 15. 36 , 37. contrary to which they have affirmed , that the same body that dyes or is sown in the earth shall raise again , when the Apostle saith , thou sowest not that body that shall be , and his comparison is of the grain of wheat and the like , to which Thomas Moor answered , That the same kirnel of wheat rose up again in the blade , when it is known that the same kirnel doth not rise , but another body or ear of Corn grows forth in the nature of that wch is sown , & yet we say that God giveth a body as it pleaseth him , & to every seed his own body , which seeds being known , & & the nature and kind of each seed discerned , the body of each may be discerned in the Resurrection by the light wch crosseth mens carnal imaginations , by which they must never know the Mystery of the Resurrection of the bodies nor the seeds , wch the Lord knoweth how to reserve every one in its own center and habitation till the sounding of the last Trumpet at the last day , and there shall be a Resurrection both of the just and the unjust , and many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall rise , some shall come forth to the Resurrection of life , and others to the Resurrection of Condemnation , every one to be rewarded according to their works ; and John said , The Sea gave up the dead which were in it , and death and Hell delivered up the dead which were in them , & they were Judged every man according to their works , & death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire , & whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life , Rev. 2. And now this being an answer to their Question about the Resurrection , note , that when Thomas Moor was asked what was the seed of which the Apostle said God giveth it a body as it pleaseth him ? Tho. Moor answered , that the seed was the body that dyes or is laid in the ground , which he pleaded for the rising of , to which it was Replyed then , that every man must rise with two bodies , if that body that is terrestrial must rise and have another body given it , but herein his ignorance was seen ; and again , he and John Horn have confuted themselves , for in their Post-script they say , That the Apostle implying plainly , that the raised body in the Resurrection shall not be flesh and blood ; Then how is it that they have pleaded so much for the same earthly body that dies to rise again , which is a body of flesh and blood , when the raised body in the Resurrection is not a body of flesh and blood they say ? these men are much shut up in Babylon , as their confusion manifests . An accusation of John Horn and Tho. Moor against John Whitehead to prove him a Reprobate , p. 6. Is that John argued against the Redemption of the body to be waited for or expected after death , and said , The Apostle had it before the death of the body ; and in p. 10. They tell of the nature or being of man , that in the Resurrection it is discharged of sin , and Law , and death . Answ. So here they expect not the Redemption of the body nor their discharge from sin till after death , wherein they have discovered themselves to be Reprobates and not John Whitehead , and their expecting the Redemption of the body to be waited for after death , is contrary to the Saints expectations , for they waited and groaned for the Redemption of the body from under corruption when they were upon earth , and the Creature it self was to be brought into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God , which state was witnessed by as many as were led by the Spirit of God who were sanctified throughout , in Body , in Soul and Spirit , and put not Redemption afar off till after death , as these men aforementioned have done . Again , They have accused us for Antichristians , from a passage in Edward Burroughs Book , where it is said , That Christ is to be known after the Spirit as he was before the world was , and that is the knowledge of him which is to eternal Salvation . On the contrary they have affirmed in page 7. That the knowledge of Christ after the Spirit as he was before the world was , is not the knowledge of him to eternal Salvation , but on the contrary ( they say . ) Answ. In this they have shewed themselves to be both abusers of the Truth and Antichristians ; for to know Christ as he is the power of God , is to know him after the Spirit as he was before the world was , and this is the knowledge of him to Eternal Salvation , it is the Power of God that saveth , and we trust in the living God who is the Saviour of all men , specially of them that believe , 1 Tim. 4. 10. Now as Christ is the living God , he was before the world was , and we are in him that is true , even in his Son Jesus Christ , this is the true God and eternal life , 1 John 5. 20. And now I say , they that receive this knowledge of Christ , do not deny his knowledge in his flesh , but witness to the same eternal Power that was manifest in his flesh , and thorow his sufferings , which Power was before the world was , and hath the same glory that it had then , and is the same for ever . And in page 7. it is said against the Quakers , That they can and may in their canting language say , he is manifest in England , and is persecuted , and dyes , and rises as well as in Judea and Jerusalem , however they make nothing of his being born , suffering and dying in the flesh . Answ. Now when J. Horn and T. Moor can truly prove nothing against us called Quakers , they have invented these wicked lyes against us , which we utterly deny , and here charge them for forgers of lyes ; Job 13. 4. for we never used any such canting language , as they call it , against Christ , but own his sufferings in Judea and Jerusalem , as he was a true offering and propitiation for the sins of the whole world , whose sufferings were effectual both for the pacifying of his Fathers wrath and for the reconciling of the whole world , as is witnessed by them who receive the Power of his life , which was manifest thorow death to them that truely believed thorow Christs sufferings ; and in page 9. the said J. Horn and T. Moor have belyed George Whitehead , in saying that he alleadging 2 Cor. 5. 16. to prove that the Apostles did not know Christ as one that suffered in the flesh , or to be in the flesh ; which is exceeding false , for that Scripture henceforth we know no man after the flesh , and though we had known Christ after the flesh , yet henceforth know we him so no more , it was brought against your knowledge which is but carnal , and stands in imaginations , who neither truly know Christ as he was in the flesh , nor after the Spirit , but contend against the knowing of him as he was before the world was , ( and as you say you neglect Christ ) and so against the knowledge of the glory of God , as a knowledge to Salvation ; when as they neither knew Christ , nor any man after the flesh , but after the Spirit , they knew Christ and one another in that Spirit and Power in them which was before the world was , but this knowledge you are out of , who know but naturally . In page 9 , 10. J. Horn and T. Moor again affirm , that the nature of man as in Christ , is perfectly freed from sin and curse , and without spot of sin , and the same nature of man , even in believers , having sin in it as a naturall Heritage from the first Adam fallen . Answ. See their gross error and confusion , which is as much as to affirm that as the nature of man is in the believers , it 's separate from Christ , and so believers in Christ having sin in them originally from Adam as a natural heritage , so they would make believers have two heritages , a naturall , and a spirituall ; an old delusion of the Priests ; for the true believers are in Christ , and by his power do witness their nature purified , by that which brings out of Adams fallen state , to witness a better heritage then sin in their nature ; for they that are in Christ , have escaped the corruptions of the world , and witness an incorruptible heritage in the divine nature , and this is known as there is an biding in Christ , the power of God . And in page 1● . they charge us with denying the humanity of Christ , and say we judge him only a spirit . Answ. We never denyed the man Christ , for his flesh is our food ; & for our owning Christ to be a spirit , the Apostles owned him to be the same , the Lord is that spirit , and the last Adam was made a quickening spirit , 2 Cor. 3. 1● . 1 Cor. 15. 45. Again they have affirmed that Christ is personally in heaven , and yet by faith in the believing heart ; and that he is not really and personally in believers , as in heaven , but by faith ; and yet Moor before said , that Christs person of flesh and bone is a quickening spirit . Answ. If Christ is not really in the believers , and if his being in them by faith is not reall , then it is but imaginary , herein J. Horn and T. Moore , have manifested their faith to be no better then the Papists faith , as I told them , wherein I did not belye them as they accuse me , for the faith of the Elect doth really evidence to them Christ in them the mystery , and the power of God , and this faith is not divided from Christ the object or foundation of it . And now concerning the blood of Christ shed , which T. Moore at the dispute owned to be the foundation of your faith , and yet affirmed that the body of Christ is in heaven , with flesh and bones , but not the blood in it , and so knew not where the blood is ; Now they tell us in page 11. that his blood was shed or powred out for the Remission of our sins , and in the vertues of it is with the Father , and so in and with Christ . Answ. Herein they have plainly confuted themselves ; for they also confess that they could not assert where the material blood ( as they call it ) or blood of Christ shed is , and yet now say , that in the vertues of it is with the Father , and in and with Christ ; so J. Horn and T. Moons hearers may now see how they have confuted their former Doctrine , who before would not own that the blood of Christ shed is in the body of Christ , yet now say it is with the Father , and in Christ in the vertues of it ; and now to clear themselves from our telling them that they preached a foundation of Faith which they knew not where it is , and which according to their own confession before , they knew not whether it is in being or not . They tell us , That the dying of Christ or his death is the foundation of their faith , and yet this dying as to the act of it is not alwayes in being , nor is the blood simply the foundation of their faith . Answ. Here again they have preached that to be the foundation of their Faith which is not in being , when as the foundation of the true Faith is Christ , who is in being , and another foundation can no man lay , then that which is laid , which is Christ ; and as for what he acted in sufferings , that was done that thorow his sufferings and works men might believe in him who worketh Faith in them , and know him to be the foundation of Faith who is in being , and not that which is not in being , as they imagine and have declared , and they now owning the blood of Christ shed not simply to be the foundation of their faith , then if they own it as part of the foundation of their Faith , then are they still at a loss , for they know not where it is ; and so according to their own words they want part of the foundation of their faith , we blame them not , neither did we blame them for not asserting that the blood shed is in the body of Christ , but for calling it the foundation of their faith ( whether they own it so simply or compoundedly seeing they know not where the blood is , nor whether it is in being ; and so we blamed them for their confusion , and establishing a blind and dead faith . T. M. his instance for Christs being in Heaven with a body of flesh and bones without blood in it , was , that we do not read that there was any blood in Adams body in Paradice ; for which he might as well have said , that then Adams body in Paradice had no life in it ( and such a body they imagine Christs to be ) when as the blood is the life , and all Nations are made of one blood , Acts 17. 26. Now we ask them if they believe that there was no blood left in Christs body when he was crucified ? And when T M. had pleaded for a body of flesh and bones in the Heavens , he did not own that Christs body there is a carnal body ; see how flatly therein he contradicted his own words and the Priests doctrine , for Priest Higginson and others affirmed , that Christ is in Heaven with a carnal body ; but his body i● a Mistery which these men of Babylon can never know , who are thus in confusion ; for Christs body is onely known with that by which God is seen and known , who is not the Authour of their confusion , but of peace . And in page 12. T M. and J. H. speak as that Job said , Behold , God is great , we know him not , and to prove it , bring Job 36 26. which is a sad mistake against Job . for it was Elihu that spoke these words who was one of them that spoke against Joh , Joh 35. 2 and 26. 1. for Job knew God when they that came against him did not ; but this their Accusation against Job is even like John Horns pleading for sin in a Letter to Eliz. Underwood , for which he brought Eliphaz his words , ( who was one of them that came against Job , and sooke not the thing of God that was right ) where he said in Job 4. 1● , and 15. 14 , 15. Behold , he put no trust in his servants , and his Angels he charged with folly , which were none of Jobs words , but his against whom the wrath of God was kindled , Job 42. 7. and in like manner hath John Horn often belyed the servants of the Lord , both in his Book and ●a●se Letters which he sent abroad in the Countrey to several that were brought to see his deceit , and therefore are turned from him , and many more of his lyes in several of his Letters against us I could produce i. occasioned to it . In page 12. J. Horn and T. Moor say , That it is rather a vertue to which we are advised not to be wise , or think or guess above what is written ; but presently they begin to guess that which is not written , and so confound themselves in their saying , That there are indeed very probable arguments used to prove that that precious blood was reunited again with the body of Christ in the Resurrection . But how shall any that are ignorant believe them , or be instructed with their confusion ? For again they have ( to mend this their matter ) confuted these they call very probable arguments , to prove that Christs blood was reunited again with the body of Christ , for in contradiction to this , in their Post-script they say , But these being but probabilities at most , and on the other side the Scriptures speaking of Christs Resurrection , mentioning only that which was buried , without any mention of his blood reunited ; So from hence we clearly see that J. Horn and some of his Company have had much reasoning about the blood of Christ , and are in themselves confounded about it , one while saying that there are very probable arguments to prove that it was reunited again with the body of Christ , another while not owning that it was reunited again , and with that they conclude ; See what blind guides these men are , we might have received as good an answer from School-boyes about the blood of Christ , as they might have guessed at it , as J. Horn and T. Moor hath done , and have told us , that it is either in the body of Christ , or not in it ; But mark how again they have guessed about it , They say in page 12. Again that which was blood before may be in the changed state turned into pure life and spirit , the thing or substance remaining . Answ. Here again they have guessed , and thought above that which is written , and how can blood be turned into spirits and the substance of it remaining ? this is a meer dream and one of John Hornes divinations , and it contradicts Moores words , for he said that the life of Christ is not in his blood ; Again if the blood that Christ shed be turned into pure spirits and life , what is his body of flesh and bones turned into ? or what reason is there that his blood should be altered more then his flesh and bones ? but all this confusion and dirty stuff of John Hornes and Thomas Moores is seen thorow and made manifest with the true light , in which they that walk shall feel the blood of Christ , which cleanseth from all sin , and know that the spirit the water and blood , which bear record in the earth agree in one , and the blood is the life , which is in Christ , whose body is not a body without the blood in it , as these dreamars aforesaid imagines ; and as the Prophet said , we witness , that by the blood of the Covenant the prisoners are sent out of the pit which can hold no water . Again in pag. 14. We are falsly accused with denying what the Scripture asserts about the body of Christ , and the Resurrection of mens bodies , and about the knowledge of Christ . Answ. Here we see plainly that this John Horne , and Thomas Moore , do love lying rather then to speak righteousness , for we own what the Scripture asserts about the body of Christ , and the Resurrection , but deny their imaginations ; and here again I shall bring their own words to confute them , in pag. 5. they have confessed that we said ( of Christs body ) that the same body that suffered was glorified at Gods right hand in Heaven , which might have stopt their mouths from accusing us as they did ; and as for our not asserting that the same earthly bodies of men shall rise again , they have in their post-script confessed , that the raised body in the resurrection shall not be flesh and blood ; to which I say , then not that body which is sown or buried , for that is a body of flesh and blood ; Again touching Christs appearance after his resurrection , when he shewed his Disciples his hands and his feet , we do not believe that his body then had no blood in it , for he then did eat before them of the broiled fish and honny comb which they gave him , which is nourishment to both flesh and blood , Luke 24. 41. 42. and the blood is the life of that which hath need of such outward nourishment , yea the life of all flesh is the blood , Gen. 9. 4. 5. Levit. 17. 14. but as Christ is Ascended into his Fathers glory in Heaven , he is in a further state , for he hath not need now of such outward nourishment as broiled fish , or a hony comb , for he is in the same glory which he had with the Father before the world began ; and as for the Saints also , their bodies in the resurrection shall as far exceed these our earthen bodies in glory , as the glory of the Sun , Moon and Stars do exceed the glory of Birds , Beasts , and Fishes , but the mystery of these things is for ever sealed as in Parables from such blind guides as these aforesaid , who have long abused the truth of Christ . In p. 14. John Horne and Moore have affirmed , The Scriptures to be the Medium of Faith , from John 17. 20. where it s said , neither pray I for these alone , but for them also which shall believe on me through their word , and Acts 17. 11. 12. of the Bereans searching the Scriptures , &c. Answ. There is no such Scripture as saith , that the Scriptures are the Medium of Faith , for they through whose word many believed were not Ministers of the Letter , but of the spirit , and their Word was before the Letter or writing was , and it came in Spirit and in Power , and this Word which they Preached was nigh people , even in their hearts , Rom. 10. And as for the Bereans they first received the Word with all readiness of minde , and then searched the Scriptures , whether these things were so ; so it was the Word which brought them to believe and to search the Scriptures , and so we say the Scriptures are truely to be believed and fulfilled , but that which brings any truely to believe and fulfill them , is Christ the Word , the Author and finisher of faith , unto whom they would not come for life , who thought they had Eternal life in the Scriptures , Joh. 5. 39 40. In pag. 15 John Horne , and Thomas Moore have accused John Whitehead with saying that the Apostles did not bring light to men , but onely pointed to what they had before . Answ. John Whitehead doth witness against them for perverting his words , as it hath been examined ; the words are not so affirmed by him , but this we say , that the Apostles did not bring another light to people then that which had enlightned them before they Preacht to them , and though the light was more in the Apostles then in them they Preacht to , yet it was the same in nature in both , though known in several measures , and they who will not own the light in the least measure of it in them , they must not know the greater , nor the glory , which the light of Christ shining in the heart gives the knowledge of in them that receive it . Again , Horne and Moore say , Indeed this is a main piece of corrupt Doctrine ( that we Preach ) that all have the light of Christ in them , and that that is , whatsoever reproves any sin in men . Ans. Here they might as well have accused Christ and the Apostles for using corrupt Doctrine ; for Christ saith , I am the light of the world , and John said of him , that was the true light which enlightneth every man that comes into the world , and that which may be known of God is manifest in them who are in unrighteousness , and like not to retain God in their knowledge , Rom. 1. and the grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men , and this is the free gift of God , which if it were not given to all men , then wherefore shall the wicked be condemned ? and what is it in them that must leave them without excuse , and who can you shew us that have not a light of Christ in them to reprove them when they have done evil ? And you have again here wickedly wronged us , for we do not affirm that whatsoever reproves any sin is the light of Christ ; but whatsoever makes manifest things that are reproved is light , and the light reproves every sin ; But such as you that are in deceit and out of the light , do sometimes reprove sin when you live in it your selves , but the light of Christ in you will reprove you for it . Again in p. 16. You John Horn and Thomas Moore say , That this way of ours exposes men to follow their own spirits , which we represent as a candle in every man . Answ. This is false , for our way exposes men not to follow their own spirits , nor sparkes of their own kindling as you say , but to follow the light of Christ , which lighteth the spirit of a man , and makes it become the candle of the Lord , that it enlightens the inward parts . Another of your lies against us , is , where in pag. 17. you accuse George Whitehead with deriding at mens faith in the death and bloodshed of Christ beyond the Sea , for they who truely have faith and hope through Christs sufferings which reacheth within the vail , that is to say Christs flesh , that faith we own , as knowing the Word of it to be in the heart , that we have it not to fetch beyond the Sea , nor from above , nor from beneath , but it s nigh in the heart and in the mouth . And to our question which was , whether the light that lighteth every man , be a natural light , or a spiritual light ? You John Horne and T. Moore answers ( pag. 17. 18. ) That that light is Christ , and the light with which he lighteth men is both natural and spiritual . Reply , Here again you are taken in your own snare , for in your saying the light is both natural and spiritual ( mark , it is not the lights are both natural and spiritual , but the light is so ) here you could not prove one light that is both natural and spiritual , and contrary to the Scriptures have you spoken , for in Christ was life , and the life was the light of men , which is not natural but spiritual , therefore this your errour may lie upon you . In pag. 18. You say , That for so much as all men receive not Christ and his light , therefore all have not his light in them . Answ. This is a poor Argument ; the Spirit of the Lord , and the grace of God hath appeared in many who have resisted it and not received it , and a measure of it is in such to condemn them , as the Kingdom of God was in the Scribes and Pharisces , and yet they received it not nor Christ , when they hated him ; And to that of Isai. 8. 20. where it is said there is no light in them , John Horne saith the word in the Hebrew is sometimes used to signifie the morning ( and we have read it , no morning in stead of no light ) but then saith he , Christ is called the morning Star , so that if there be no morning light in man , there is none of his light who is the morning light . Answ. Here his ignorance appears again , for the light of Christ shines in darkness in some before the morning , and that led some to the arising of the Day-star in their Hearts , and so the light of Christ , who is the morning light to some , appears as a Candle in the darkness to others , and is not the morning light to them , until they by it see the morning in them , and the light which hath shined in darkness arising out of darkness , so that the light of Christ is both the evening light and the morning light . Page 19. Again John Horn , and Thomas Moore have accused us , with telling Mr. Townsend , ( as they call him ) That the light was wholly departed from him . Answ. Herein have you impudently belyed us ; for the words against Townsend are not so spoken , but that from the light of God in his Conscience he is departed ; so blush , and be ashamed of your lyes ; for in like manner did a false Priest in Cambridge belye us , ( in a lying Pamphlet ) with the very same thing . In Page 20. you John Horn , and Thomas Moore , have accused James Nayler with his discovering more fully the mysterie of Deceit , ( in his Book called , Love to the Lost ) in saying , That the Seed to which the Promise was made , and which few know , is a certain Seed or Principle in man , desiring to follow after God , and to be free from sin . Reply . Here you are seen to be ignorant of the Seed of God , and enemies to it in his People , which Seed is Christ , and where-ever he is known in such a low measure , as a Seed that suffers , and is burthened in man by corruption , there he desires to be free from the burthen of sin , and alwayes to do his Fathers will , and this Seed the power reaches to , where it is begotten , and in the power it arises in them that believe in the light for their Redemption ; and the Apostle travelled again for the Galatians until Christ was formed in them , who first is known as one without form or comliness ; and so the seed of God suffers in some , and in others it reigns , and is known to be Prince of Peace ; and this is no Mystery of Deceit ( as you say ) but a mystery that hath discovered your Deceit , who know not the Seed of the Kingdom , nor the power wherein it rises ; and have you never known what Christ is without the Camp ? But before you ( who are neglecters of Christ , and abusers of his truth ) can know the Seed of God , and what it is in you , you must come to the light which will condemn you for your Deceits and Lyes with which you have abused the Truth , and then learn to know what and where the grave is which Christ hath made with the Wicked . J. Horn , and T. Moore , in Page 20. saith , But I shall adde no more , but only desire People to beware of them as a heavy judgement of God , that he hath ordered to us , to punish us for our neglect of Christ , the Salvation of God , and the Truth of him so long abused by us . Answ. Here you have made manifest your selves indeed , ye Hypocrites ; what have ye been crying out of the Quakers calling them deceivers , and warning the people to beware of them , and Writing against them , and judging them to be in delusion and error , when ye your selves neglect Christ the Salvation of God , and have long abused his Truth ? ( as ye are made to confess ) consider your own Conditions , ye are in great delusion and error your selves who neglect Christ the Salvation of God , and have long abused his Truth , and ye are not like , neither can ye bring people to Christ the Salvation of God and his Truth , who are neglectors of Christ Gods Salvation and his Truth your selves ; Therefore people had need take heed and beware of following you , lest ye lead them to neglect Christ the Salvation of God , and to abuse his Truth more and more ; you are the Hypocrites that are not to judge , whose beam is yet in your own eyes , for wherein ye judge others for error and delusion , ye condemn your selves , ye being such ( as ye confess ) that neglect Christ the Salvation of God , and abuse his Truth , and if we be ( as ye say ) a Judgment ordered of God to punish you for your neglect of Christ the Salvation of God , and the Truth of him so long abused by you , Why do you not then bear the Judgment of God more patiently , seeing ye have sinned so against him in abusing his Truth , and in neglecting Christ the Salvation of God ? Why do you rage so against Gods Judgment ? Here all People may see , That ye are not satisfied nor content with what God hath ordered unto you for your neglect of Christ the Salvation of God , and the Truth of him so long abused by you ; but we shall yet be a heavier Judgment upon you , for we are a burthensome-Stone to all the ungodly , and the more ye strive against us , the greater will be your Torment ; therefore give over your Teaching of others , and be ashamed of your blindness and wickedness and repent , and cease striving and raging against the Truth of God , and us his People ; for the more ye strive against us ( and the Truth which we live in , and are Witnesses of , which Truth is Christ , who also is in us , which is the Riches of the Mysterie which hath been hid from Ages and Generations , but is now revealed in the Saints by the light ) Mark , the greater will be your Judgment and burthen ; and this ye shall witness to be true : so abuse Gods Truth no longer , neither neglect Christ the Salvation of God as ye have done , but submit to Gods Judgment , and learn to prize Christ the Salvation of God and his Truth , and believe therein , and fight no longer against the Lord and his Truth and Servants , lest he shorten your dayes and cut you off : So remember you are warned , whether you will hear or forbear . John Horn and Thomas Moore , And indeed the cause of then prevalency is , partly in the Teachers , and partly in the people . Answ. The cause of our prevailing is not in man , but in God , even the mighty powerful prefence of the Lord which doth accompany us , whereby we reach the faithful Witness of God in people , which answereth to the Truth of God declared by us , and thereby many are turned from darknesse to light , and from Satans power unto God , and we must prevail more and more , for the Lord is opening peoples eyes , and he will teach them himself , and many people begins to see the deceipt and wickedness of such Teachers as ye are who abuse Gods Truth , and neglect Christ the Salvation of God ; and although you have a form of godliness ( and have stoln many true words ) yet many people sees you to be out of the power , ( and fighters against it , and them that be in it ) and so they will turn away from you ; and all that sets themselves against us shall fall before us , for the Lord is with us and takes our part . See J. Horn's Testimony against his Brethren the Priests . John Horn , Thomas Moore , pag. 20 , 21. Too many of the Teachers are such as Isaiah speakes of , Isa. 56. 1● , 11 , 12. his Watchmen ( which should watch for the good of men ) are too generally blind , the Vision of all the Preaching of the Cross of Christ is a sealed Book to them , they are ignorant , they are dumb Dogs that cannot bark , ( to give warning of these Beasts , or to set themselves to discover and detect them ) sleeping in their security , and lying down loving to slumber , to take their ease and peace , and to content themselves with Dreams instead of searching out Truth , and giving it forth to the People ; yea , they are Dogs strong to appetite , greedy Dogs , hunting after Livings and Maintenances , more Means , and so never have enough , too many of them Shepherds that cannot understand , they all look to their own way , every one for his gain from his Quarters ; that is , are more mindful of the Fleece then the Flock , and many of them given to voluptuousness ; Come , and I will fetch Wine , &c. Answ. Many true words have you here uttered against ( your Brethren ) the Teachers , but if ye be thus divided against your selves , surely ye are not like to stand ; the hand of the Lord is turned against you who would stir up your Brethren , the Dogs , to bark against us , and to bite and devour the Lambs of Christ , and now ye lay open one anothers nakedness ; but as for your railing and calling of us Beasts , that will come upon your own heads , and your words shall become your burthen . And as for thee John Horn especially , thou canst not clear thy self from being one of those Dogs , ( which ye say look for their gain from their Quarter ) for thou lookest for thy gain from thy Quarter , and art an Hireling , who pleads for ( and takes ) Tythes ; And it is true , That ye ( who pretend your selves to be watchmen ) are too generally blind and ignorant , and ye have no true vision , for Night is come upon all the Hireling Teachers , yea the Sun is set upon you all , and so the blind leads the blind , and both falls into the ditch ; So poor people may see , how they have given their money ( for that which is not bread , and their labour for that which could not satisfie ) even to uphold a company of ignorant blind watchmen that could not understand ; for the Preaching of the Cross of Christ ( which is the power of God ) hath been a sealed Book to them , even to uphold such as have contented themselves with Dreams , and have been given to voluptuousness , and have long abused Gods Truth , and neglected Christ the Salvation of God , as ye confess of your selves and others ; so ye are witnesses against your selves : Ye Idol Shepherds ( who have not profited the people ) the Lord is stretching out his hand , to gather and deliver his Sheep out of your mouths , that ye may no longer make a prey upon them , who through your Covetousness and fained words have long made Merchandize of people . J. Horn , T. Moore , The Lord help us to search and try our wayes , and to see how much ( any of us ) have contributed to the overflowing flood of this ungodliness . Answ. The Lord hath searched and tryed your hearts and wayes , and he hath found you guilty of much ungodliness , and his light hath often made you sensible of it , and judged you for it ; and the Lord hath oft called unto you to forsake your ungodliness , though ye have long slighted the Call of the Lord , and hardened your hearts against his reproof ; Therefore repent and dread the Lord , and take heed lest that come upon you , that when ye call upon the Lord he will not answer you . John Horn , Thomas Moore , Surely some mens Principles that would be counted Orthodox , give , and have given them great advantage . Answ. Many corrupt Principles do you and your fellow-Teachers hold , which we are made to witness against , ( that so the People may see your Deceits , and not be led into your Imaginations any longer ) several of yours are made manifest in this Book , as about Christs Body , and Blood , and Resurrection of the Body , &c. And after ye have reckoned up many things which ye say those that would be counted Orthodox hold , whereby ye say we get great advantage , ye then proceed as followeth . John Horn , Thomas Moore ; But besides this , too general Ignorance , Sloth , Covetousness , Pride found in too many Ministers , gives advantage to them ; even like Foxes and Wolves , to ●●●laim against the vigilent Shepherds too , as if all were but Hirelings , and so that the Flock ought rather to betrust themselves with them . Answ. Great is the Ignorance , Sloth , Covetousness , and Pride which is generally found indeed in you who are called Ministers , which in the power of the Lord we are oft moved to declare against ; but we do not take Advantage thereby , ( as ye Lyingly and Railingly accuse us ) to declaim against the vigilent Shepherds , as if all were but Hirelings ; for we put a great difference betwixt the Proud , Covetous , Slothful Hirelings , and the vigilent Shepherds ; for we own the vigilent Shepherds , whom the Holy Spirit hath made Overseers over the Flock of God , and have true Unity with them , and we know that they are not Hirelings , for they have freely Received , and they freely Give ; and covet no mans Silver , Gold nor Apparrel , but seeks the People , and not theirs ; for having Food and Raiment , they are therewithal content , and receives it of them also that do receive them and imbrace the Truth ; and we labour to bring People unto Christ the power of God , that People may betrust themselves with him , who is the good Shepherd , and Bishop of the Soul . John Horn , Thomas Moore ; But it is good for People to mind first , That all are not Hirelings that take Hire , witness Zach. 11. 12. 2 Cor. 11. 8. Secondly , That it is safer for the Sheep to a●ide with their Hirelings , if their Shepherds be such , then to l●ave them , and go to Foxes and Wolves ; Christ faults the Hir●lings for leaving the Sheep to the Wolves , but never wills his Sheep to leave Hirelings if they will feed them in the Pa●●ures of Israel . Answ. Here the people may see your exceeding ignorance and blindnesse in your pleading for taking hire , who say that all are not Hirelings that take hire , and for your witnesse and proof , you have brought that Scripture in Zach. which although the Prophet spoke those words , yet it is evident that he spoke them by way of prophecy concerning Judas ( who afterwards should ask a price for Christ and fell him , which prophesie came to passe ; for Judas said to the Jews who sought to take Christ , what will you give me , and I will deliver him unto you ? and they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver ; so it appears by your words that you would perswade the people that Judas was no Hireling ; for it is evident that that which ye bring for your witness , was spoken concerning Judas , who asked for the price or hire , and received it ; so Judas is your witnesse and example for asking and taking of hire ( and not Christ ) Mat. ●6 . 15. so the people may mind this , ( mark ) that it was Judas the betrayer of Christ , that asked for the hire and covenanted for it , and those that rejected Christ and were chief actors in the murthering of him , they gave the hire ; and then was fulfilled that which was spoken by the Prophet , read Mat. 27. and what the Apostle took of the Churches ( for his relief ) which received the truth , amongst whom he sometimes laboured , that will not prove that it is lawful for the Priests to take Tithes and Hire of all sorts of people that have Land in Parishes whither the people own them or not , as it is evident that the Priests do ; And the Hirelings and all devouring Beasts are in one Nature , and it is not safer for the Sheep ( as ye have falsely said ) to abide with the one then the other , for neither of them cares for the Sheep no further then to make a prey upon them , and all such we bear a Testimony against , being redeemed out of their Nature ; and it is the will of Christ that his sheep should leave the hirelings ( for they care not for the Sheep ) and that they should follow him and hear his voice , and Christs sheep do so , they hear Christs voice who have called them from the Hirelings and Strangers , and their voices they will not regard ; And such as Christ sends to feed his Sheep in the Pastors of Israel , they are no Hirelings ( as ye foolishly imagine ) but they have freely received , and they freely give , and such are not greedy of filthy lucre , neither do they rèceive Tithes by a corrupt unjust Law made by Apostates ( as thou John Horn dost ) but they do what they do of a willing and a ready mind , and are not hired to it for a certain sum , but such if they have not of their own , may and do receive Food and Rayment of such as receive them and their Testimony ; and this is according to the Apostles Doctrine , and is owned and practised amongst us the Servants of the Lord ( called Quakers ) whom ye in your rayling , lying accusations liken unto Foxes and Wolves , but your words shall become your own burthen , and with the Spirit of the Lord we see you in the devouring beastly Nature which the Lord is against , and will rent . J. Horn T. Moor , the people are too generally guilty too , and lay themselves open to these delusions and deluders , because too generally they neglect Christ and his Truth , take no pleasure therein , but rather in slothfulnesse , formality , covetousnesse pride and vanity in apparel , and in many other things , by which means they are in danger to perish , whether they keep out of these mens snares or falls into them ; howbeit they are exposed to their snares thereby , because they afford the deceivers matter to work upon , can find many faults in them , many things to accuse them of , though some things that God never charged them with before these men came & set themselves Masters ; but in many things really evil , they have too great advantage , and mens consciences by the effect of the law in them ( which is not Christ ) bearing witnesse that they say true in those things that they fault them in . Answ. Here it is manifest by your own words , that ye are the false Prophets that have not profited the people , that notwithstanding all your Preachings , the people still neglect Christ and his Truth , and take no pleasure therein , but rather in slothfulness , formality , covetousnesse , pride and vanity in apparel , and in many other things , and are in danger to perish whether they come after us or not as ye confess ; so it is clear to all that have any understanding , that ye have not stood in the Counsel of God , for if you had , then you should have turned the people ( that had received your Doctrine ) from the evil of their way , and from the evil of their doings , Ier. 23. but People have long received you and your Doctrine , and yet live in their evil wayes : Therefore be ashamed and stop your mouths ye Hypocrites , who also speaks against covetousnesse , pride and vanitie in apparel in the People , and of their neglect of Christ and his Truth , when many of you their Teachers are found in covetousnesse , Pride and vanity in apparel , wearing your Cuffs and Ribbands , ( and White Boot-hose-tops ) and Teaching for Tithes , and Gifts , and Rewards , and most of these in particular thou Iohn Horn art guilty of , and in the twentieth page of your Book , ye confesse your selves to be guilty of the neglect of Christ the salvation of God , and the abuse of his truth ; so here it is plain , that wherein ye have judged others , ye have condemned your selves , Rom. 2. 1. and made it appear that you are like Priests like People , Hos. 4. 9. and we whom the Lord have redeemed out of the vanity and wickednesse of this world , do judge you for your wickednesse , and bear our Testimony against it in that which hath redeemed us from it ; and although we are counted by you to be deceivers when we judge you for your wickednesse , yet the Lord owns our judging of you , because it is in that which answereth the effect of his Righteous Law in mens consciences , which beareth witnesse that we speak true , as you our enemies are made to confesse ; And it was the Ministers of Christ that were manifested to Peoples consciences in the sight of God , and not the deceivers , for the effect of the Law in people where it was witnessed or was , did not nor do not cause their consciences to bear witness to the deceivers Doctrine but against it ; so it is manifest that you judge contrary to the effect of the Law who have judged them to be deceivers , whom mens consciences by the effect of the Law in them beareth witnesse unto ; And the Law in men ( which witnesseth unto the truth and against sin ) is light , and it is the Law of the Spirit of Life which is in Christ Jesus , which freeth ( those that believe and walk in it ) from the power of sin and death , but those that believe not in it , but hate it , it beareth witness against them and their evil deeds , and remains their condemnation ; and it is you that have set your selves masters ( and not we ) who exercise Lordship one over another , and have mens persons in admiration , and respect mens persons , and calls ( and are called of ) men Masters , contrary to Christs Doctrine ; but we , although we be the Lords free men , yet we are become servants unto many in the truth , Ministring , and labouring for the gathering of the scattered Seed . John Horn , Thomas Moore , They to get a partie ( as the Jesuits do ) exposing themselves to some abuses and sufferings from the rude people , make themselves more like Chri●is Ministers to the simple people . Answ. We indeed suffer much for righteousness sake , and for bearing our testimony against unrighteousness , and you who are Teachers oft causeth our sufferings to be the greater , by your lying and railing against us , thereby stirring up the rude people to abuse us , even as your forefathers the Priests and Pharisees did , who stirred up the rude people against our Master Christ and his servants in former dayes , for which the Lord will assuredly reward you in righteousness ; But we will in all things approve our selves as the Ministers of God , in much patience , in affliction , in necessitie , in distresses , in stripes , in imprisonments , in tumults , &c. 2 Cor. 6 and our lives are not dear unto us , but are freely given up to serve the living God , in spreading his living truth , and it is for no other end , God is our witness , though ye wickedly judge otherwise . And then John Horn , and Thomas Moore goes about to shew the cause why , and how the people are overcome , and led captive by the Quakers , and say , John Horn , Thomas Moore , It s through their own carelesness and formality , or also through their Teachers , they are not so instructed , as to be able to examine and discern them ; Through their carelesness , and weakness therethrough in their understanding of the things of God , and conceiting themselves to know and be able to judge and discern of spirits , they neglect the helpfulness , and gifts of brethren , as also the advice of their Teachers and instructors that have the oversight of them , and spoken to them the Word of the Lord . Answ. Oh be ashamed to see what a bad crop is brought forth ; what have you been Teachers so long , and taking peoples mony for this , that notwithstanding they have owned you and your Doctrine , and followed you so long that yet they should bring forth no better fruits then these , as carelesness , and formality , and conceitedness , and neglect , and weakness in understanding the things of God ? ye have sown but to the fleshly part , and that 's the cause you have such a corrupt crop ; And now we see your Kingdom is near falling , who are accusing your fellow Teachers for not instructing the people , so as to be able to examine and discern us , and the people are led captive already who brings forth such bad fruits as these , and had you spoken the Word of the Lord to them , and they had believed it , surely they would have brought forth better fruits ; but because you have but stoln from your neighbours much of what you have spoke , and added your own imaginations thereto , and hath run but the Lord hath not sent you , that is the cause you have not profited the people , though you have believed what you have spoke , and have contended much for your Doctrine , yet ye receiving it not from the Lord , it was without life and power , and so was not effectual to the people . John Horn , Thomas Moore , Oh that all both Ministers and people would yet be awakened to search and try our wayes , and to make straight steps to our goings . Answ. Yes , ye had need to be awakned indeed ; for it is manifest that ye both Teachers and people have been asleep in the night of thick darkness , and you have brought forth night works , neglecting Christ the salvation of God , and abusing his tru●h , taking no pleasure therein , but rather in slothfulness , formality , covetousness , pride and vanity in apparrel , and many other things , and Teachers not instructing people , so as they might be able to examine and discern such as come unto them ; Ye sluggish Shepherds , who are yet to be awakened , what have you taken peoples mony and goods for all this time , was it for your sleeping and dreaming ? awake , awake ye sluggards , and own the light of Christ which he hath enlightned you withal , and that will shew you your dreaming , and the deeds of the night , and that will teach you to make straight steps to your goings , and to search and try your wayes . John Horn , Thomas Moore , Look to your selves , whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the Doctrine of Christ hath not God , he that abideth in the Doctrine of Christ , hath both the Father and the Son . Answ. Then it is manifest that you Thomas Moore , and John Horn , have not God , and out of your own mouths ye shall be Judged ; for in the 20. pag. of your Book , you speak of the heavy Judgement of God that he hath ordered to you , to punish you for your neglect of Christ the Salvation of God , and the truth of him so long abused by you , now it is plain to any that have any true understanding , that such as neglect Christ the Salvation of God , and abuse his truth , that they transgresse and abide not in the Doctrine of Christ ; and this you have confessed your selves to be guilty of , and now your blindness and folly , and confusion , and wickedness is discovered by the spirit and wisdom of God , which abideth in us who abide in the Doctrine of Christ , and have both the Father and the Son . Many more of your lies and slanders and confusion we could shew you in your Book , but that they are not worth the mentioning ; And think not with your selves , that because we reckon not up the rest of your accusations and railing against us , that therefore we consent to them as truth , for we know that the Lord God will judge and punish you for your perverting the truth , and your railing against us , and slandering and belying us called Quakers as you have done , both in your Book and in many Papers of John Hornes that were posted up against us in Lin ; and this know that the Lord God of power hath by his mighty power and wisdom armed us to make War against you and to manifest your deceits , who are found to be forgers of lyes and deceivers , and in enmity against the living truth of God ; and the longer you proceed therein against us and the truth witnessed by us , the more will you be confounded , and your folly made manifest , that so the honest hearted will begin to loath you , and you had better have put your mouths in the dust and been silent then to have blasphemed against the truth of God and against his people , as you have done ; leave your hypocrisie and deceit wherewith you blind the people , and feed them no longer with your dreams , lyes , and ( stoln ) dead words , least the Lord cut you off in your iniquity , for a time of withering is already come upon you . And as for you who are the Hearers of the said John Horn and Thomas Moor , our Souls pitty you , knowing you are under a vail of thick darkness and bondage , as we can no otherwise conclude , seeing your leaders are tryed , and found so much in ignorance and confusion , and we wish rather then you would remain under their darkness and deceits , that you would come back to the witness of God , which hath in many of you been often moving , but often hath been quenched through yielding to the sleights and deceits of men , and striving to get more into knowledge then into the life and power ; and now you are but feeding death , and seeking the living among the dead , while ye go to them for help , who are out of the power of God , in their own imaginations , wherein they are confounded , and if ever you come to the Fathers House , and there to find the spiritual nourishment , you must first return to the light of the Lord in you , which you have transgressed and grieved , when often it hath appeared against your ungodliness . And we would not have you think much against us , because we have here dealt plainly by your Teachers , in discovering them , for we were first occasioned to give forth this , because of their false railing book against us , or else we had not thus appeared in publick against them ; and compare this and their book together , and you may soon see ( if you read them sincerely ) how deservedly we have dealt by them , more then they have by us , for we sent Queries to John Horn and Thomas Moor in manuscript for them to answer , not expecting they would have wronged us , as they have done in Print ; And therefore if they in like manner do again proceed against us in Print , we purpose in the Lord further to have their deceits discovered publickly , that the truth which is professed and dearly owned by us , may be cleared , and its enemies have the fruits of their own doings . Post-script . AND seeing that ye ( called Moorians ) hold forth , That flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , yet flesh and bones may ; we ask you these Questions ; If Elijahs flesh and bones could enter into Gods Kingdom ( when he was taken up ) and if his blood could not , then when , and where , and how , and by whom was his blood taken and separated from his flesh and bones ? And what is become of his blood ? And what is it that hinders the blood , that it may not enter into Gods Kingdom as well as the flesh and bones , which ye say may ? Is the transgression of the blood greater then the transgression of the flesh and bones ? And shall the flesh and bones be redeemed and delivered from corruption , and shall not the blood ? What is the Cause ? For although the Lord doth what he please , yet , doth he do any thing without a Cause ? And whether do you own that Doctrine , that when Christ appeared amongst the Disciples after his Resurrection ( when the doors were shut , John 20. 19. ) that then his body being spiritualized , it glided in at the key-hole of the door ? Which doctrine Thomas Moor sen . hath formerly preached , as some hath affirmed who heard him . And where do the Scriptures say , That flesh and bones may in herit the Kingdom of God ? And where you John Horn and Thomas Moor in page 16. say , That Sathan doubtless may reprove of some sins , and press to some duties ; Now have you not here shewn your selves to be Ministers of Sathan , and not of Christ ? And we ask you what duties ( or any things that are duties ) doth Sathan press men to ? Answer directly , or let shame cover you , which at length will come upon you for your deceits . THE END . 
A65852	----	The Christianity of the people commonly called Quakers asserted against the unjust charge of their being no Christians, upon several questions relating to those matters wherein their Christian belief is questioned. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1689 Approx. 12 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 2 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65852 Wing W1910 ESTC R217347 99829022 99829022 33457 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65852) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 33457) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1860:16) The Christianity of the people commonly called Quakers asserted against the unjust charge of their being no Christians, upon several questions relating to those matters wherein their Christian belief is questioned. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1 sheet ([1] p.) printed for Thomas Northcott, in George-yard, in Lumbardstreet, London : 1689. Attributed to George Whitehead by Wing. Caption title. Reproduction of the original in the Friends House Library, London. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. Quakers -- Early works to 1800. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE CHRISTIANITY Of the PEOPLE commonly called QUAKERS ASSERTED Against the Unjust Charge of their being no CHRISTIANS , upon several Questions relating to those Matters wherein their Christian Belief is Questioned . Question , WHat 's your Belief concerning the Blessed Trinity , as our Term is ? Answer , Our Belief is , that in the Unity of the Godhead there is Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , being those Three Divine Witnesses that bear Record in Heaven , the Father , the Word , and the Holy Spirit ; and that these Three are One , according to Holy Scripture Testimony . Quest. Do you Believe the Divinity and Humanity of Jesus Christ the Eternal Son of God , or that Jesus Christ is truly God and Man ? Answ. Yes , we verily believe that Jesus Christ is truly God and Man , according as Holy Scripture Testifies of Him , God over all blessed for ever , the true God and Eternal Life , the One Mediator between God and Men , even the Man Christ Jesus . Quest. Do you believe and expect Salvation , and Justification , by the Righteousness and Merits of Jesus Christ , or by our own Righteousness or Works ? Answ. By Jesus Christ his Righteousness , Merits and Works , and not by our own , God is not indebted to us for our deservings , but we to Him for his free Grace in Christ Jesus , whereby we are saved through Faith in Him ( not of our selves ) and by his Grace inabled truly and acceptable to serve and follow Him as He requires ; He is our All in All , who worketh all in us that is well pleasing to God. Quest. Do you believe Remission of Sin , and Redemption through the Sufferings , Death , and Blood of Christ ? Answ. Yes through Faith in Him as he suffered and Died for all Men , gave himself a Ransom 〈…〉 shed for the remission of Sins : so all they who sincerely believe 〈…〉 of his suffering and dying for 〈…〉 receive and partake of that Eternal Redemption which he hath obtained for us , who gave Himself for Us that he might Redeem us from all iniquity ; he died for our sins , and rose again for our Justification ; and if we walk in the Light , as he is in the Light , we have fellowship one with another ; and the Blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin , 1 John 1. 7. Quest. Do you believe and own the Divine Offices of Jesus Christ in his Church ? Answ. Yes , verily we sincerely believe and own Christ , not only as He is the Light of the World , enlightning every Man coming into it ; but also that he is given for a Leader , and for a Commander . And that he is both King , Priest , and Prophet 〈◊〉 and over His Church and People . He is the Minister of the Sanctuary which the Lord pitched , and not Man , and we are to hear Him in all things . Quest. Do you Believe or own Baptism as Essential to Christianity , or necessary to Salvation , and for the Ingrafting us into Christ and His Church ? Answ. We believe and are fully perswaded , That Baptism which is Essential to Christianity , and the saving Baptism , or the Cause without which none can be true Christians , or saved , is the inward or spiritual washing of Regeneration by the Word of Life . This is the saving Baptism into Christ and His Church , which produceth the Answer of a Good Conscience towards God , of which the outward was a Figure , 1 Pet 3. 21. This is that One Baptism of Christ by one Spirit into that one Body , whereof Christ is Head. As to Dipping or Sprinkling Infants , or Young Children we find no Precept or Precedent in holy Scripture for the practice thereof , and therefore we cannot think our not believing it Essential ( or necessary ) to salvation , or making Christians ; a sufficient Argument to Prove us no Christians ( unless it can be proved that none are saved without it , and that all are saved that have it . ) Considring also what 's Po●itively affirmed in the 39 Articles ; as in the 6th Article , That whatsoever is not Read in the Holy Scriptures , nor may be proved thereby , is not to be required of any Man , That it should be believed as an Article of the Faith , or be thought requisite or necessary to Salvation . And in the 20th Article , That the Church ought not to Decree or Enforce any thing against or besides Holy Writ , to be believed for necessity of Salvation ; And in Article 21. That things ordain'd by General Councils as necessary to salvation , have neither strength nor Authority , unless that they be taken out of holy scripture . Quest. Do you believe or own the Lords supper , either as a sign of the Love that Christians ought to have among themselves , or as a seal of the Saints Communion and Commemoration of Christs Death for us , or as Figurative of Christs Body and Blood spiritually received by Faith. Answ. The Supper of the Lord we own , and tenderly consider in a twofold sense , 1. In the Figure . 2. In the Substance . 1. That our Lord Jesus Christ at his supper with His Disciples , did eat the passover ( which was for the fulfilling and consummation of the Feasts under the Law ; ) see Luke 22. And at this supper He did take and Minister Bread and the Cup to his Disciples ( for there was no Transubstantiation ) saying , This do in Remembrance of me ; and said the Apostle , As often as ye shall eat this Bread , and drink this Cup , ye shew the Lords Death till he come , 1 Cor. 11. After this they did more clearly know His coming : and Christ after the Spirit ; Jesus Christ in them , 2 Cor 13. 5. & 5. 16. 2. And Christ said to his Disciples , I will not Drink henceforth of this Fruit of the Vine until that day I drink it 〈◊〉 with you in my Fathers Kingdom , Mat. 26. 29. And likewise of the Bread , I will not any more eat thereof , until it be fulfilled in the Kingdom of God , Luke 2● 16. And he further said , I appoint unto you a Kingdom as my Father hath app●●nted to me that ye may Eat and Drink at my Table in my Kingdom , &c. Luke 22. 29 , 30. ● these things we believe he spoke mysteriously , and that every Member of his spiritual Church , doth daily spiritually partake of his Body and Blood by Faith , is the Cup of Blessing which we Bless , is it not the Communion of the Blood of Christ ? And the Bread which we break , is it not the Communion of the Body of Christ ? for we being many are One Bread , and One Body , for we are all partakers of that ONE Bread , 1 Cor 10. 15 , 16 , 17. The Son of God saith , Behold I stand at the Door and knock , if any Man here my Voice , and open the door , I will come into him and will SUP with him , and he with me , Rev. 3. 20. And Wisdom calleth to the simple , Come Eat of my Bread , and Drink of my Wine , Prov. 9. 4 , 5. And saith Christ , The Bread of God is he that cometh down from Heaven , and giveth Life unto the World. I am that Bread of Life ; my Flesh , is Meat indeed , and my Blood is Drink indeed , He that Eateth my Flesh , and Drinketh my Blood , dwelleth in me , and I in him , John 6. We believe that all who thus do truly partake of Christ by Faith , are in true Communion and Love among themselves , which they do want who are only in the outward Observations of Sign and Shadows . Quest. Do you own the Seals of the New Covenant ? Answ. Yes , as the New Covenant is spiritual , so are the Seals thereof ( as they may be termed ) proper to it , and therefore we believe they stand not in any ex●●●nal Shadow , Sign or Figure , but in spirit and substance , the seals of the New 〈…〉 ( which is inward and spiritual ) must needs be the Evidence , Testimony and Interest in that Covenant . See what the Holy Scripture see 2 Cor. 1. 22. Who hath also sealed us , and hath given us the earnest of the spirit in our Hearts . Ephes. 1. 13. After that ye believed ye were sealed with the holy spirit of Promise . And Ephes. 4. 30. And grieve not the holy spirit of God whereby ye are sealed unto the day of Redemption . Our Christian sense and belief in these Matters may be briefly summ'd up in what follows , viz. 1. We believe , That the spiritual appearance , and living enjoyment of Christ in spirit , is above all outward signs , shadows , or figures , or a Remembrance only of him thereby . And that Christ more clearly discovers himself by his spirit in the New Covenant , than by any outward Representations in the Old , or thereunto appertaining . 2. That the One Baptism of the spirit is a seal or confirmation of the New Covenant to true Believers , and of them in it ; and so is their spiritual Eating and Drinking with Him in his Kingdom a certain assurance , seal or evidence of their spiritual communion with him , and in him . 3. As all outward shadows and figures were of a decreasing nature , so there is the substance thereof , which they pointed at , and wherein they ended , though the names given to the shadows were carried along to the substance also , that it might the more plainly appear in Scripture how the shadows were fulfilled in the substance Christ ; as in the Old Covenant there was outward Circumcision of the flesh ; in the New , there is the Inward Circumcision of the Spirit . In the Old , there was divers Washings or Baptisms , Heb. 9. 10. In the New , the One Baptism of Christ ; in the Old , the Feast of the outward Passover kept with unleavened Bread , and other Feasts observed , &c. in the New Covenant , Jesus Christ is our Passover , and the Feast is to be kept with unleavened Bread of sincerity and truth ; and here the One Bread of Life is known and received . 4. We do not read nor find in Scripture , that One outward Type or shadow , was a Type of another Type outward , but alwaies of the thing Typified or shadowed forth , which was the substance and end of that shadow or type , as may be shewn at large , if any undertake to shew us any shadow or thing that is figurative in its own nature ( mentioned in Scripture ) which they suppose we cannot shew the substance of , under the same Name or Title . Quest. Do you believe and own the Holy Scriptures , contained in the Books of the Old and New Testament , to be given by Divine Inspiration , and to contain all Matters of Doctrine and Testimony , &c. necessary to be believed and Practiced in order to salvation , and Peace with God ? Answ. Yes , we do , and by the assistance of the Grace and good Spirit of God , which gives the true understanding of the mind of God , and meaning of Holy Scripture , we alwayes desire to live in the Faith , Knowledg and Practice of them in all things appertaining to Life and Godliness , Holy Scripture being given by Divine Inspiration , is profitable for Doctrin , Correction , and Instruction , that the Man of God may be perfect , thorowly furnished unto every good Work , able to make the Man of God wise unto salvation , through Faith in Christ Jesus . Writ in behalf of the People of God called QUAKERS , By some of them . LONDON , Printed for Thomas Norhcott , in George-Yard , in Lumbardstreet , 1689. 
A65855	----	The Christianity of the people commonly called Quakers, asserted. Being a brief account of their faith in relation to divers matters where-in their Christian belief is questioned. Published in behalf of the people of God called Quakers by some of them. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1696 Approx. 41 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 11 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65855 Wing W1915 ESTC R214791 99826860 99826860 31269 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65855) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 31269) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1771:12) The Christianity of the people commonly called Quakers, asserted. Being a brief account of their faith in relation to divers matters where-in their Christian belief is questioned. Published in behalf of the people of God called Quakers by some of them. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [4], 15, [1] p. s.n.], [London? : Printed in the year, 1696. By George Whitehead. Place of publication conjectured by cataloger. Identified on UMI microfilm (Early English books, 1641-1700) reel 1771 as Wing (2nd ed.) W1915. Cf. Wing (2nd ed.) W1915, which implies "Quakers, vindicated" in title. Reproduction of the original in the Friends House Library, London. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. Quakers -- Early works to 1800. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Rachel Losh Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Rachel Losh Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE CHRISTIANITY OF THE PEOPLE Commonly Called QUAKERS ASSERTED . Being a brief Account of their Faith in Relation to divers Matters wherein their Christian Belief is Questioned . Published in behalf of the People of GOD called Quakers by some of them . Luke 6. 22. Blessed are ye when Men shall hate you , and when they shall separate you from their Company , and shall Reproach you , and cast out your Name as evil for the Son of Man's Sake . Acts 24 14 After the way which they call Heresie , so Worship I the GOD of my Fathers . Printed in the Year , 1696. THE PREFACE TO THE READER . THere hath been of late Years many Aspersions cast upon Vs , whereby the People in some Places ( especially in the West of this Nation of Scotland ) have been much stirred up against us , and much hard and cruel Vsage have we Suffered ; and have often been in danger of our Lives , both in our Meetings and in the Streets , and sometimes in our own Houses : And since the Sitting of the Late General Assembly at Edinburgh , what a mighty Clamour hath been among the People through a great part of the Nation concerning us ? Some saying , we must be all Excommunicated , and that none must Converse or Deal with us , others saying , we must all be Banished , The rude Multitude that abuse us often threatning us with the General Assembly , and taking occasion from thence ( especially in our Meeting at Edinburgh ) to be more Wicked , Prophane and Loose in their Carriage towards us than they were before : And the only Reason that is given for this Confused Noise about us , and for all the Cruel and Vnchristian Vsage we meet with , is it not the same that was alledged against the LORD and his People by their Adversaries and Persecutors in former Ages ? that is , under pretence of being Deceivers , Deluders , Hereticks , Schismaticks , possessed with the Devil & c. ? Did not the Chief Priests and Pharisees tell People that Christ was a Deceiver , and that he had a Devil ? John. 7. 47. Mat. 2. 63. Luke 11. 15. John 8. 48. and did not the People revile and persecute Him under that pretence ; and were not the Apostles accounted Deceivers , Turners of the World upside-down , and deemed unworthy to Live upon the Earth ; 2 Cor. 6. 8. Acts 27. 50. And was not Paul called a Pestilent Fellow , a Mover of Sedition , a Ring-leader of the Sect of the Nazarines ? &c. Acts 17. 6. Acts 24. 5. And were not all the Revilings , Scoffings , Stonings , Imprisonments , and other hard usage that they met with , inflicted upon them under those hatefull Names and Epithites aforementioned ; whereby the dark Priests , benighted Elders and Proud Pharisees and others stirred up the People against them ? and did not the Heathens put Wild-beasts Skins upon the Christians to make them appear like Beasts that the Dogs might be stirred up to Devour them ? And was it not under the black and detestable Names of Hereticks ; Deluders , Schismaticks , ( and sometimes of ) Socerers ( or Witches ) That the Popish Clergy incensed the People against the Ancient Protestants , prohibiting them all Trade and Commerce , exposing them to cruel Scoffings and Revilings , and at last Murthering many Thousands of them ( as may be seen at large in the Books of Martyrs ) Was ever Christ or his Apostles found in such cruel practices or stirring People up thereunto . Did he not rebuke those Disciples that desired the destruction of some that would not receive Him , telling them they knew not what Spirit they were off , and that he was not come to destroy mens lives but to save them ? Joh. 9. 55 , 56. And were not the Stoners , Abusers , Scoffers and envious Murthering Persecutors , and the Priests and Teachers that stirred them up thereunto , such as were filling up the measure of their iniquity and drawing down the Righteous and terrible Judgments of God upon themselves ? Mat. 23. 32 , 33 , 34 , 35 , Acts. 7. 51. 52. So our earnest desire is , that they who have shown themselves so eager to be found in such cruel Practices in this our Age , may seriously consider what Spirit they are off , and whose Steps they are treading in , and that they may Repent before it be too late . Now we having often been wrongfully accused ( and from thence hatefull Names put upon us ) with denying the Trinity , the Holy Scriptures , that we undervalue the Merits and Sufferings of CHRIST ; Some saying , we deny His Divinity , others saying , we deny His Humanity , The Ordinances , The Resurrection , and the Great Day of Judgement &c. We have therefore found a Concern upon us to Publish a brief Relation of what our belief hath been & still is concerning those & other weighty points of Christian Doctine , & so leave it to the serious Consideration of the empartial Reader what ground there is for that mighty Clamour that hath been and yet continues against us , and whether it be not like theirs of Old that cryed out , Men of Israel Help ? &c. Acts 21. 28. The CHRISTIANITY of the People commonly called QVAKERS Asserted . Being a Brief account of Their Faith in Relation to several weighty Matters , wherein Their Christian Belief is Questioned . Question . WHat 's your Belief concerning the Blessed Trinity , as our Term is ? Answer , Our Belief is , that in the Unity of the God-head there is Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , being those Three Divine Witnesses that bear Record in Heaven , the Father , the Word , and the Holy Spirit ; and that these Three are One , according to Holy Scripture Testmony . Mat. 28. 19. 1 Joh. 5. 7. Quest. Do you Believe the Divinity and Humanity of Jesus Christ the Eternal Son of God , or that Jesus Christ is truely God and Man ? Answ. Yes , we verily believe that Jesus Christ is truly God and Man , according as Holy Scripture Testifies of Him , God over all blessed for ever , he true God and Eternal Life , the One Mediator between God and Men , even he Man Christ Jesus . Joh. 1. 1. 2. Rom. 9. 5. 1 Joh. 5. 20. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Quest. Do you believe and expect Salvation , and Justification , by the Righteousness and Merits of Jesus Christ , or by your own Righteousness or Works ? Answ. By Jesus Christ his Righteousness , Merits and Works , and not by our own , God is not indebted to us for our deservings , but we to him for is free Grace in Christ Jesus , whereby we are saved through Faith in Him not of our selves ) and by his Grace inabled truly and acceptably to serve and ●ollow Him as He requires ; He is our All in All , who worketh all in us ●at is well pleasing to God. Rom. 3. 24. Eph. 2. 8. 9. Quest. Do you believe Remission of Sin , and Redemption through the Sufferings , Death , and Blood of Christ ? Answ. Yes , through Faith in Him as he Suffered and Died for all Men , ●ave himself a Ransom for all , and His Blood being shed for the Remission ●f Sins ; so all they who sincerely believe and obey Him , receive the Benefits ●d blessed Effects of his suffering and dying for them , they by Faith in His ●ame , receive and partake of that Eternall Redemption which he hath ●tained for us , who gave Himself for Vs that he might Redeem us from 〈◊〉 Iniquity ; He died for our Sins , and rose again for our Justification ; and if 〈◊〉 walk in the Light as He is in the Light , we have fellowship one with another ; and the Blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all Sin , 1 Joh. 2. 2. 2 Cor. 5 14. 1 Joh. 1. 7. Quest. Do you believe and own the Divine Offices of Jesus Christ in his Church ? Answ. Yes , verily we sincerely believe and own Christ , not only as He is the Light of the World , enlightning every Man coming into it ; but also that he is given for a Leader , and for a Commander . And that He is both King , Priest , and Prophet to and over His Church and People . He is the Minister of the Sanctuary which the Lord pitched , and not Man , and we are to hear Him in all things . Isa. 55. 4. Zech. 9. 9. Heb. 3. 1. Deut 18. 15. 18. Heb. 8. 2. Quest. Do you believe or own Baptism as Essential to Christianity , or necessary to Salvation , and for the Ingrafting us into Christ and His Church ? Answ. We believe and are fully perswaded , That Baptism which is Essential to Christianity , and the saving Baptism , or the Cause without which none can be true Christians , or saved , is the Inward Spiritual washing of Regeneration by the Word of Life . This is the saving Baptism into Christ and His Church , which produceth the Answer of a Good Conscience towards God , of which the outward was a Figure , 1 Pet. 3. 21. This is that One Baptism of Christ by one Spirit into that one Body , whereof Christ is Head. Eph. 4. 5. As to Dipping or Sprinkling Infants , or Young Children we find no Precept or Precedent in Holy Scripture for the practice thereof , and therefore we cannot think our not believing it Essential ( or necessary ) to Salvation , or making Christians ; a sufficient Argument to prove us no Christians ( unless it can be proved that none are saved without it , and that all are saved that have it . ) Considering also what 's positively affirmed in the 39 Articles of the Church of England as in the 6th . Article , That whatsoever is not Read in the Holy Scriptures , nor may be proved thereby , is not to be required of any Man , That it should be believed as an Article of the Faith , or be thought requisite or necessary to Salvation . And in the 20th . Article , That the Church ought not to Decree or Enforce anything against or besides Holy Writ , to be believed for necessity of Salvation ; And in Article 21. That things ordain'd by General Councils as necessary to Salvation , have neither strength nor Authority , unless that they be taken out of Holy Scripture . And in the Westminster Confession of Faith professed by the Kirk of Scotland Chap. 20. It is Said . God alone is Lord of the Conscience and hath left it free from the doctrins and Commandments of men , which are in any thing contrary to his word [ i. e. ] The holy Scripture or beside it , if matters of Faith or Worship so that to believe such doctrines or obey such Commands out of Conscience , is to betray true liberty of Conscience , and the requiring of an implicit faith , and an absolute and blin●● obedience . Quest. Do you believe or own the Lords Supper , either as a sign of the Love that Christians ou●ht to have among themselves , or as a Seal of the Saints Communion and Commemoration of Christs Death for us , or as Figurative of Christs Body and Blood Spiritually received by Faith ? Answ. The Supper of the Lord we own , and tenderly consider in a twofold Sense , 1. In the Figure . 2. In the Substance . 1. That our Lord Jesus Christ at his Supper with His Disciples , did Eat the Passover ( which was for the Fulfilling and Consummation of the Fasts under the Law : ) see Luke 22. And at this Supper He did take and Minister Bread and the Cup to his Disciples ( for there was no Transubstantiation ) saying , This do in Remembrance of Me ; and said the Apostle , As often as ye shall Eat this Bread , and Drink this Cup , ye shew the Lords Death till he come , 1 Cor. 11. After this they did more clearly know His coming : and Christ after the Spirit ; Jesus Christ in them . 2 Cor. 13. 5. and 5. 16. 2. And Christ sald to His Disciples , I will not Drink henceforth of this Fruit of the Vine until that day I Drink it new with you in my Fathers Kingdom , Matth. 26 29. And likewise of the Bread , I will not any more Eat thereof , until it be fulfilled in the Kingdom of God , Luke 22. 16. And he further said , I appoint unto you a Kingdom as my Father hath appointed to me that ye may Eat and Drink at my Table in my Kingdom , &c. Luke 22 29. 30. In these things we believe he spoke Mysteriously , and that every Member of his Spiritual Church , doth daily Spiritually partake of His Body and Blood by Faith , as the Cup of Blessing which we Bless , is it not the Communion of the Blood of Christ ? And the Bread which we break , is it not the Communion of the Body of Christ ? For we being many are ONE Bread , and ONE Body , for we are all partakers of that ONE Bread , 1 Cor. 10. 15 , 16. 17. The Son of God saith , Behold , I stand at the Door and knock , if any Man hear my Voice , and open the Door , I will come into him , and will SVP with him , and he with me , Rev. 3. 20. And Wisdom calleth to the Simple , Come , Eat of my Bread , aud Drink of my Wine , Prov. 9. 4 , 5. And saith Christ , The Bread of God is He that cometh down from Heaven , and giveth Life unto the VVorld , I am that Bread of Life ; my Flesh is Meat indeed , and my Blood is Drink indeed , He that Eateth my Flesh , and Drinketh my Blood , dwelleth in Me , and I in him , John 6. We believe that all who thus do truly partake of Christ by Faith , are in true Communion and Love among themselves , which they do want , who are only in the outward Observations of Sign and Shadows . Quest. Do you own the Seals of the New Covenant ? Answ. Yes , as the New Covenant is Spiritual , so are the Seals thereof ( as they may be Termed ) proper to it , and therefore we believe they stand not in any external Shadow , Sign or Figure , but in Spirit and Substance , the Seals of the New Covenant ( which is Inward and Spiritual ) must needs be the Evidence , Testimony and Work of the Holy Spirit , giving us Assurance through Faith of our share and Interest in that Covenant . See what the Holy Scripture saith in this Case ; see 2 Cor. 1. 22. Who hath also Sealed us and hath given us the earnest of the Spirit in our Hearts . Ephes. 1. 13. After that ye believed ye were Sealed with that Holy Spirit of Promise . And Ephes. 4. 30. And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby ye are Sealed unto the day of Redemption . Our Christian Sense and Belief in these Matters may be briefly summ'd up in what follows , viz. 1. We believe , That the spiritual appearance , and living enjoyment of Christ in spirit , is above all outward signs , shadows , or figures , or 〈◊〉 Remembrance only of him thereby . And that Christ more clearly discovers himself by his spirit in the New Covenant , then by any outward Representations in the Old , or thereunto appertaining . 2. That the One Baptism of the spirit , is a seal or confirmation of the New Covenant to true Believers , and of them in it ; and so is their spiritual Eating and Drinking with him in his Kingdom a certain assurance , Seal or Evidence of their spiritual Communion with Him , and in Him. 3. As all outward shadows and figures were of a decreasing nature , so there is the substance thereof , which they pointed at , and wherein they ended , though the names given to the shadows were carried along to the substance also , that it might the more plainly appear in Scripture how the shadows were fulfilled in the substance Christ ; as in the Old Covenant there was outward Circumcision of the flesh ; in the New , there is the Inward Circumcision of the Spirit . In the Old , there was diverse Washings or Baptisms Heb : 9 : 10 : In the New , the One Baptism of Christ ; in the Old , the Feast o● the outward Passover kept with unleavened Bread , and other Feasts observed &c. In the New Covenant , Jesus Christ is our Passover , and the Feast i● to be kept with unleayened Bread of sincerity and truth ; and here the O● Bread of Life is known and received . 4. We do not read nor find in Scripture , that One outward Type o● shadow , was a Type of another Type outward , but alwayes of the thing Typified ot shadowed forth , which was the substance and end of that shadow or Type , as may be shewen at large , if any undertake to shew us any shadow or thing that is figurative in its own nature ( mentioned in Scripture ) which they suppose we cannot shew the substance of , under the same Name or Title . Quest. Do you believe and own the Holy Scriptures contained in the Books of the Old and New Testament , to be given by Divine Inspiration , and to contain all Matters of Doctrine and Testtmonie , &c. necessarie to be believed and practiced in order to salvation , and Peace with GOD ? Answer . Yes , we do , and by the assistance of the Grace and good Spirit of GOD , which gives the true understanding of the Mind of GOD , and meaning of Holy Scripture , we always desire to live in the Faith , Knowledge and Practice of them in all things appertaining to Life and Godliness , Holy Scripture being given by Divine Inspiration , is profitable for Doctrine , Correction , and Instruction , that the Man of GOD may be perfect , thorowly furnished unto every good Work , able to make the Man of GOD wise unto Salvation , through Faith in Christ Jesus . A Further Declaration of what our Christian Belief and Profession hath been and still is , in Respect to JESUS CHRIST , the Only begotten Son of GOD , his suffering , Death , Resurrection , Glory , Light , Power , Great-day of Judgment &c. WE Sincerely Profess Faith in GOD , by his only begotten Son JESUS CHRIST , as being our Light and Life , our only way to the Father . a That GOD Created all things , He made the Worlds by his Son JESVS CHRIST ; He being that Powerful and Living Word of GOD by whom all things were made , b And that the Father the Word and the Holy Spirit are one in Divine Being , inseparable ; One true living and eternal GOD ▪ blessed for ever . c Yet That this Word or Son of GOD in the fulness of time , took flesh ▪ became perfect man according to the flesh , descended and came of the Seed of Abraham and David d but was miraculously Conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of The Virgin Mary e and also further declared to be the Son of GOD with Power according to the Spirit of Sanctification by the Resurrection from the Dead . f That in the Word ( or Son of GOD ) was Life and the same life was the Light of men , and that he was and is that true Light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the World g and therefore that men are to believe in the Light that they may become Children of the Light h Hereby we believe in Christ the Son of God as he is the Light and life within us , and wherein we must needs have sincere respect and honour to ( and belief in Christ as in his own unapproachable and incomprehensible Glory and fulness i As he is the Fountain of Life and Light , and Giver thereof unto us ▪ Christ as in himself , and as in us being not divided . And that as man Christ dyed for our sins and rose again , and was received up into Glory in the Heavens k He having in his dying for all bee● that One and great universal Offering and Sacrifice for peace . Atonement and Reconciliation between God and Man ; l and he is the Propitiation not for sins only but for the sins of the whole world m we were reconciled by his death , but saved by his Life . That Jesus Christ who sitteth at the right hand of the Throne of th● Majesty in the Heavens , yet is he our King , High Priest and Prophet n 〈◊〉 his Church , a Minister of the Sanctuary and of the true Tabernacle which the Lord pitched and not man : o He is Intercessor and Advocate wit● the Father in Heaven and there appearing in the presence of God for us p being touched with the feeling of our infirmities , Sufferings and sorrows , and also by his Spirit in our hearts , he maketh Intercession according to the Will of God , crying Abba Father . q For any whom God hath Gifted r and Called sincerely to Preach Faith in the same Christ , both as within and without us , cannot be to Preach two Christs , but one and the same Lord , Jesus Christ s having respect to those degrees of our spiritual Knowledge of Christ Jesus in us t and to his unspeakable fulness and Glory u as in himself in his own intire Being wherein Christ himself and the least measure of his light and life as in us or in Mankind are not divided nor separable , no more than the Sun is from its Light. And as he ascended far above all Heavens that he might fill all things x his fulness cannot be comprehended or contained in any finite Creature y But in some measure known and experienced in us as we are capable to receive the same ; as of his fulness we have received Grace for Grace , Christ our Mediator received the Spirit not by measure , z but in fulness but to every one of us is given Grace according to the measure of the Gift of Christ a That the Gospel of the Grace of God should be preached in the Name of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost b being One c in Power , VVisdom , and Goodness , and indivisible ( or not be divided ) in the great Work of Mans Salvation . We sincerely confess ( and believe ) in Jesus Christ both as he is true God and Perfect Man d and that he is the Author of our living Faith in the Power and Goodness of God , as manifest in his Son Jesus Christ , and by his own Blessed Spirit ( or divine Unction ) revealed in us e whereby we inwardly feel and taste of his goodness f life and Vertue ; So as our souls live and Prosper by and in him . And the inward sense of this Divine Power of Christ and faith in the same , and this inward experience is absolutely necessary to make a true sincere and perfect Christian in spirit and life . That divine honor & worship is due to the Son of God c & that he is in true faith to be prayed unto , and the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ called upon as the primitive Christians did d because of the Glorious Union or oneness of the Father and the Son e and that we cannot acceptably offer up prayers or praises to God the Father , not receive a gracious answer or blessing from him but in and through his Dear Son Christ. That CHRIST's Body that was Crucified was not the God-head , yet by the Power of GOD was raised from the Dead , and that the same CHRIST that was therein Crucified , ascended into Heaven and Glorie f is not questioned by us . His Flesh saw no Corruption g it did not corrupt , but yet doubtless his Body was changed into a more Glorious h and Heavenlie Condition that 't was in when subject to divers Sufferings on Earth ; but how and what manner of Change it met withall after it was raised from the Dead , so as to become such a Glorious Body ( as 't is declared to be ) is too wonderfull for Mortals to Conceive , Apprehend or Pry into , ( and more meet for Angels to see ) The Scripture is silent therein as to the manner thereof , and we are not Curious to Enquire or Dispute it , nor do we esteem it necessary to make our selves Wise above what 's written i as to the Manner and Condition of Christ's Glorious Body as in Heaven , no more than to Enquire how Christ appeared in divers Manners of Formes k or how he came in among the Disciples the Doors being shut l or how he vanished out of their sight after he was risen : However , we have cause to believe his Body as in heaven is changed into a most Glorious Condition far transcending what it was on Earth , otherwise how should our low Body be Changed , so as to be made like unto his Glorious Body m For when he was ou Earth and attended with Sufferings , he was said to be like unto us in all things , sin only excepted n which may not be so said of him as now in a state of Glory , as he prayed for , o otherwise where would the Change be both in him and in us ? True and living Faith in Christ Jesus the Son of the Living God p has respect to his entire Being and Fulness , to him entirely as in himself , and as all Power in Heaven and Earth is given unto him q and also an Eye and Respect to the same Son of God r as inwardly making himself known in the Soul in every Degree of his Light , Life , Spirit , Grace and Truth , and as he is both the Word of Faith and a Quickning Spirit in us s whereby he is the immediate Cause , Author , Object and Strength of our Living Faith in his Name , and Power , and of the Work of our Salvation from Sin and Bondage of Corruption ; and the Son of God cannot be divided from the least or lowest Appearance of his own Divine Light or Life in us , ( or in Mankind ) no more than the Sun from its own light ; nor is the sufficiency of his Light within by us set up in opposition to him the Man Christ , or his Fulness considered as without us , nor can any Measure or Degree of Light received from Christ , as such , be properly called the Fulness of Christ , or Christ as in Fulness , nor exclude him so considered from being our Compleat Saviour for Christ himself to be our Light , our Life , our Saviour t is so consistent , that without his Light we could not know life nor him to save us from sin , or deliver us from darkness , condemnation or wrath to come : And where the least degree or measure of this Light and Life of Christ , is sincerely waited in , followed and obeyed , there 's a blessed encreass of Light and grace known and felt , as the path of the Just it shines more and more untill the perfect day , u and thereby a growing in Grace and in the knowledge of God and of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ hath been and is truely experienced , and this Light , Life or spirit of Christ within ( for they are one Divine Principle ) is sufficient to lead into all Truth , having in it the diverse Ministerations both of Judgement and mercy , both of Law and Gospel , even that Gospel which is Preached in every intelligent Creature under Heaven , it does not only ( as in its First Ministeration Manifest Sin , and reprove and condemn for sin , but also excites and leads them that believe in it to true Repentance and thereupon to receive that mercy , Pardon and Redemption in Christ Jesus which he hath obtained for Mankind on those Gospel terms of Faith , ( in his name , ) true repentance and Convers●●ion to Christ thereby required . Now , though we had the holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament and 〈◊〉 a belief of Christ crucified and raised &c. We never knew the mystery thereof until we were turned to the Light of his Grace and Spirit within us , We knew not what it was to be Reconciled by his Death , and Saved by his Life , or what it was to know the fellowship of his Sufferings , the Power of his Resurrection , or to b● made comformable to his Death , we knew not untill he opened our eyes , and turned our minds from darkness unto his own Divine Light , and Life within us . Notwithstanding we do sincerely and greatly esteem and value the Holy Scriptures ; Preaching and Teaching of faithful divinely inspired , gifted and qualified persons & Ministers of Jesus Christ as being great outward helps and Instrumental in his hand and by his spirit for Conversion where God is pleased to afford those outward helps & means as that we neither do nor may oppose the sufficiencie of the Light or Spirit of Christ within to such outward helps , so as to reject disesteem or undervalue them , for they all proceed form the same Light and Spirit and tend to turn Peoples minds thereunto and all center therein . Nor can the Holy Scriptures or true Preaching without be Justly set in opposition to the Light or Spirit of God or Christ within ; for his Faithful Messenger are Ministers thereof being sent to turn People to the same Light and Spirit i● them . Acts 26. 18. Rom. 1. 2. 2 Cor. 4. 6. 1 Peter 2. 9. 1 John 2. 8. 'T is certain that great is the Mystery of Godliness in it self in its own Being 〈◊〉 excellency , namely that God should be and was Manifest in the Flesh , Justifie● in the Spirit , seen of Angels , Preached unto the Gentiles , Believed on it th● World , and received up into Glory . And it is a great and precious mystery of Godliness and Christianity also th● Christ should b● spiritually and effectually in mens hearts to save and deliv●● them from sin , Satan and bondage of Corruption , Christ being thus reveall●● in true Believers and dwelling in their hearts by Faith , Christ within the ho●● of Glory , our Light and Life who of God is made unto us , Wisdom , Righteou●●ness , Sanctification and Redemption , 1 Cor. 1. 30. And therefore this Mystery of Godliness both as in its own Being and Glor● and also as in men ( in many hid and in some revealed ) hath been and must be Testified , Preached and believed where God is Pleased to give Commission ( and prepare Peoples hearts for the same ) and not in mans will. Concerning the Resurrection of the Dead , and the Great day of Judgement yet to come , beyond the Grave or after Death , and CHRISTS Comming without us to Judge the Quick and the Dead ; ( as diverse Questions are put in such Terms ) what the Holy Scriptures plainly declare and testifie in these matters ▪ we have great reason to Credit and not to Question , and have been alwayes ready to Embrace with Respect to CHRIST and his Apostles own Testimony and Prophecies . 1. FOR the Doctrine of the Resurrection ; If in this Life onely we have Hope in Christ , we are of all Men most Miserable , 1 Cor. 15. 19. We sincerely believe not only a Resurrection in Christ from the fallen , sinfull State here , but a Rising and Ascending into Glory with Him hereafter , that when he at last appears , we may appear also with him in Glory , Col. 3. 4. 1 John 3. 2. But that all the Wicked , who live in Rebellion against the Light of Grace , and Die finally Impenitent , shall come forth to the Resurrection of Condemnation . And that the Soul or Spirit of every Man and Woman shal be reserved in its own distinct , proper Being , ( so as there shall be as many Souls in the World to come as in this ) and every Seed ; ( yea every Soul ) shall have its proper Body as GOD is pleased to give it , 1 Cor. 15. A Natural Body , is sown a Spiritual Body is Raised ; that being first which is Natural , and afterwards ●nat which is Spiritual ; And though it 's said , this Corruptible shall put on Incorruption , and this Mortal shall put on Immortality , the Change shal be such , as Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of GOD , neither doth Corruption inherit Incorruption , 1 Cor. 15. Chap. We shall be Raised out of all Corruption and Corruptibility , out of all Mortality ; and he Children of GOD and of the Resurrection shall be equal to the Angels of GOD in Heaven , Mat. 22. 30. Mark 12. 25. Luke 20. 36. And as the Celestial Bodies do far excell Terrestriall ; So we expect ou● Spirituall Bodies in the Resurrection shall far excell what our Bodies now are , and we hope none can Justly blame us for thus expecting better bodie● than they now are . Howbeit , we esteem it very unnecessary to Dispute or Question how the Dead are Raised , or with what Body they come ? But rather submit that to the Wisdom and Pleasure of Almighty GOD. Secondly , For the Doctrine of Eternal Judgement . GOD hath committed all Judgement unto His Son JESUS CHRIST , and He is Judge of both Quick and Dead , and of the States and Ends of all Mankind . John 5. 22. 27. Acts 10. 42. 2 Timothy 4. 1. 1 Peter 4. 5. That there shall be hereafter a Great Harvest which is the End of the World ; A Great Day of Judgement , and for the Judgment of that Great Day the Holy Scripture is clear , Matthew 13. ' 39 , 40 , 41. Chap. 20. 15. and 11. 24. Jude 6. When the Son of Man cometh in His Glory , and all the Holy Angels with Him ; Then shall He sit upon the Throne in his Glory , and before Him shall be gathered all Nations &c. Matthew 25. 31. 32. to the end compared with Chapter 22. 31. Mark 8. 38. Luke 9. 26. and 1 Corinthians 15. 52. 2 Thessalonians 1. 7 , 8. to the end . 1 Thessalontans 4. 19. Revelation 20. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. That this Blessed Heavenly Man ( this Son of Man , who hath so deeply Suffered and Endured so many Indignities and Persecutions from his Adversaries , both to Himself and his Members , and Brethren ) should at last ▪ even in the Last and Great Day , Signally and Manifestly Appear in Glory and Triumph , attended with all his Glorious Heavenly Host and Retinue , before all Nations , before all his Enemies , and those that have denyed him ▪ this will be to their great Terror and Amazement ; that this most Glorious Heavenly Man and his Brethren , that have been so much Contemned and set at Nought , should be thus Exalted over their Enemies and Persecutors in Glory and Triumph , is a righteous thing with GOD ; and that they that Suffer with Him , should Appear with Him in Glory and Dignity ▪ when He thus Appears at Last . CHRIST was Judge of the World and o● the Prince thereof when on the Earth , John 9. 39 , and 12. 31. He is still Judge of the World , the Wickedness and Prince thereof by his Light , Spirit and Gospel in Mens Hearts and Consciences , John 16. 8 , 11. Matthew 12. 18 , ●0 . Isaiah 42. 1. Romans 2. 16. 1 Peter 4. 6. And he will be the Judge and ●inal Determiner thereof in that Great Day appointed ; GOD having appointed a Day wherein he will Judge the World in Righteousness , by that Man whom he hath ordained . Christ foretold , it shall be more tolerable for them of the Land of Sodom and Gommorah in the Day of Judgement , than for that City or People that would not receive his Messengers or Ministers &c. Matthew 10 , 15. and ●ee Chap. 11. 24. and Mark 6. 11. Luke 10. 12. 14. It is certain that GOD knows how to deliver the Godly out of all their Trials and Afflictions , and at last to bring them forth , and raise them up into Glory with CHRIST ; So , he knoweth also how to reserve the unjust and finally Impenitent unto the Day of Judgement to be Punished , 2 Peter 2. 9. He will bring them forth unto the Day of Destruction , Job 21. 30. The LORD can and will ●eserve such Impenitent , Presumptuous and Rebellious Criminals as bound under Chains of Darkness ( as were the fallen Angels ) unto the Judgment of the Great Day , Jude 6. Matthew 25. 30. 'T is not for us to Determine or dispute the Manner how they shall be so reserved ; but leave it to GOD , He knows how . Something further Relating to this Doctrine of the Resurrection and eternal Judgment . AT the last Trump of GOD and Voice of the Arch Angel the Dead shall be raised incorruptible , the Dead in CHRIST shall rise first , 1 Corinthians 15. 52. 1 Thessalonians 4. 16. Compared with Matthew 24. 31. Many are often allarm'd in Conscience here by the Word and Voice of GOD who Stop their Ears and slight these warnings ; But the Great and ●inal Alarm of the last Trumpet , they cannot Stop their Ears against , nor ●scape , it will unavoidably Seize upon and further awaken them finally to ●udgement ; They that will not be alarm'd in their Consciences to Repentance ●or out of their Sins here , must certainly be alarmed to Judgment hereafter , whosoever do now wilfully shut their Eyes , hate , Contemn or Shun the Light of CHRIST or his appearance within shall at last be made to see and not be able to Shun nor hide themselves from his Glorious and Dreadful appearance from Heaven with his Mighty Angels as with Lightning and in flaming Fire to render Vengeance on all them that know not GOD and obey not the Gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST , 1 Thess 7. 8. Matth. 24. 27. Luke 17. Dan. 10. 6. Job 37. 3. And though many now Evade and Reject the inward Convictions and Judgment of the Light and shut up the Records or Books thereof in their their own Consciences , they shall all be at last opened and every one Judged of these things Recorded therein according to their Works , Revelation 20. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. FINIS . Published in behalf of the People of God called QVAKERS by some of them . ADVERTISEMENT . Any sober Enquirer that Desires to be further informed concerning the Principles and Doctrines of the aforesaid People , and to see how they clear themselves of the Calumnies and Envious Aspersions that are cast upon them by their Adversaries may be pleased to read Their Confession of Faith and Catechism , and The Apology for the true Christian Divinity , also the Apology Vindicated being an Answer to John Broun , Truth Cleared of Calumnies , William Mitchel Vnmasked , all Written by Robert Barclay ; a little Book called The Key by G. P. a Book Written by One Elizabeth Bathurst , Rusticus and Clericum being a late Answer to William Jamison by John Robertson &c. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65855-e1400 a Heb. 12. 2. 1 Pet. 1. 21. Joh. 14. 6. 1 Tim. 2 ▪ 5. b Eph. 3. 9. Joh. 1. 1. 2. 3. Heb. 1. 2. c 1 Joh. 5. 7. d Rom. 1. 3 , 4. e Mat. 1. 2. 3. f Rom. 1. 3 , 4. g Joh. 1. 4 , 9. h Joh. 12. 36. Isa. 2. 5. i 1 Tim. 6. 16. k 1 Pet. 3. 18. 1 Tim. 3. 16. Mat. 19. 28. and 25. 31. Luke 9. 26 ▪ and 24. 26. l Rom 5. 10. 11. Heb. 2. 17. 18. Eph. 2. 16. 17. Col. 1. 20 ▪ 21. 22. m 1 John. 2. 2. 2 Cor. 5. 14 , 15. Heb. 2. 9. n Zech. 9. 9. Luke 19. 38. John 12. 15. Heb. 3. 1 , 6. Deut. 18. 15 , 18. Acts 3. 22. and 7 , 37. o Heb. 8. 1. 2. p Heb. 7. 25. Heb. 9. 24. q Rom. 8. 2 , 6 , 27 , 34. Gal. 4. 6. r Ephes. 3. 7. 1. 13 , 14 , 10. s 1 Cor. 8. 6. Chap , 15. 3 , 8. t John 15. 26. and Chap. 16. 13 , 14 , 15. u John 1. 16. x Eph. 4. 10. y Col. 1. 19. and 2. 9. z John. 3. 34. a Ephes. 4. 7. b Matth. 28. 19. c John 1. 1 , 2 , 3. 4. d John 1. 1 , 2. Romans 9. 5. 1 John 5. 20. 1 Tim. 2. 5. e 1 John 2. 20 , 27. and Chap. 1. 1. f 1 Peter 2. 3. John. 6. 33 , 35 , 51 , 57 , 58. c John. 5. 23. Heb. 1. 6. d 1 Cor. 1. 2. Acts 7. 59. e John. 10. 30. 1 John. 5. 7. f Luke . 24. 26. g Psal. 16. 10. Acts 2. 31. 13. 35. 37. h Phil. 3. 21. i 1 Cor. 4. 6. k Mark 16. 12. John 20. 15. 1 John 20. 19. Luk. 24. 36 , 37. and Chap. 24. 31. m Phil. 3. 21. n Heb. 2. 17. and 4. 15. o John 17 5. p Joh. 14. 1. q Matth. 28. 8. Chap. 11. 27. Joh. 17. 2. Heb. 1. 4. Chap. 2. 8. r John 14. 23. and 17. 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 26. verse● s 1 Cor. 15. 45. Rom. 10. 7. 8. t John 1. 4. 9. and Chap. 3. 19● and Chap. 12. 35 , 36 , 49. and Chap. 8. 12. u Prov. 4. 18. Psal. 36. 9● Col. 1. 23. 
A65857	----	The conscientious cause of the sufferers, called Quakers pleaded and expostulated with their oppressors in this nation of England, and particularly in and about the city of London : and those in power that go about to transport, banish, or suppress them for their meetings, innocently informed, and impartially cautioned, from the innocent and oppressed seed of God, which herein calls for justice and equity, and utterly exclaims against severity and persecution for matters of conscience or religion : wherein first and principally is shewed, the use and end of the publick assemblies of the said sufferers, in answer to several objections against them, 1. with respect to their conscientiousness, as it being their duty to meet, 2. with respect to their innocency and peaceable deportment both to the nation and government therein / by G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1664 Approx. 35 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 8 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65857 Wing W1918 ESTC R20036 12291294 ocm 12291294 58896 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65857) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58896) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:14) The conscientious cause of the sufferers, called Quakers pleaded and expostulated with their oppressors in this nation of England, and particularly in and about the city of London : and those in power that go about to transport, banish, or suppress them for their meetings, innocently informed, and impartially cautioned, from the innocent and oppressed seed of God, which herein calls for justice and equity, and utterly exclaims against severity and persecution for matters of conscience or religion : wherein first and principally is shewed, the use and end of the publick assemblies of the said sufferers, in answer to several objections against them, 1. with respect to their conscientiousness, as it being their duty to meet, 2. with respect to their innocency and peaceable deportment both to the nation and government therein / by G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 15 p. [s.n.], London : 1664. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to George Whitehead. cf. NUC pre-1956. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- England -- Controversial literature. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2005-01 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Conscientious Cause OF THE SVFFERERS , called QUAKERS , Pleaded and Expostulated with their Oppressors in this Nation of England , and particularly in and about the City of London . And those in Power that go about to Transport , Banish , or suppress them for their Meetings , Innocently informed , and impartially cautioned , from the Innocent and Oppressed Seed of God , which herein calls for Justice and Equity , and utterly exclaims against Severity and Persecution for matters of Conscience or Religion . Wherein first and principally is shewed , The Use and End of the Publick Assemblies of the said Sufferers , in Answer to several Objections against them . 1. With respect to their Conscientiousness , as it being their duty to meet . 2. With respect to their Innocency and peaceable deportment both to the Nation and Government therein . By G. W. London , Printed in the year 1664. The Consciencious Cause of the Sufferers ( called Quakers ) pleaded , &c. WHereas it is asserted by some in Authority , and such as have a hand in persecuting us and some others , That we might keep our Consciences clear and enjoy the Liberty thereof , if we would reduce our Meetings into small numbers , as to meet four together besides the Families , so as not to come under the penalty of the late Act. And some charge it upon us as obstinacy or wilfulnes● for meeting in any considerable or great numbers publickly ; and thereupon conclude that our Suffering is not upon a Consciencious account in this Case ; And to others , it is a question whether or no we may with a clear and safe Conscience reduce our Meetings into such small numbers as mentioned , since that we have appeared so publickly to hold forth our Testimony . To which I answer . We have a Record in Heaven and amongst men , which doth clear and justifie us in this Case , and therein our Consciences bear us witness , as to our intent and end in our meeting and assembling our selves together , That it is singly in tenderness , conscienciousness and obedience unto the living God in the leading of his own Eternal Spirit , for the glory and advancement of his Name and Truth . And this our practice of Assembling together in the Worship and Service of the living God , must needs be a matter of Conscience to us , because we know it to be our duty as he requires , and according to the practice of the former Saints and Christians , who did not confine or limit themselves to meet onely four or five together ; because the Truth of God among them , and his Gifts were free , and not to be limited to mans will , either in respect of time or place ; and the Gospel was not to be bound , but as it was manifest in the Universal Love of God , which is of a general extent to all , so it was not to be stopt or tyed by man , but all ought to be left free to have the benefit of it ; and this we know is manifest in and amongst us , and in our Meetings have been those opportunities which the Lord God hath made use of many times , to publish and make known his Name and Power in ; which hath been evidently known and experienced by the blessed effects thereof . As , 1. In that many in our Assemblies have been effectually convinced of the Truth as it is in Christ , by the Testimony of God held forth amongst us , and turned from the gross pollutions and wickedness which formerly they lived in , and so from Satans power to God , and from darkness to Light ; and have known Repentance unto Life , and come to live Godly and soberly in this present world , as his Grace teacheth . 2. In that many of the dear Children of God and Lambs of Christ have often felt the Lord's Presence accompanying them in that duty of Assembling together in his Worship , and that many times to their great Refreshment and mutual Joy , Comfort , and Edification ; and therein we have had opportunities to stir up the pure minds in one another , and to communicate what the Lord hath given us to declare , to the building up of each other in the most holy Faith , against sin and temptations ; and the Life and Power of God hath had its course and flowings forth amongst us in our Meetings , as thorow one body , to our refreshment , enlivening , renewing and rejoycing of our souls , both when the ministration of words in the Spirit of Holiness hath been publish'd amongst us ; and when we have waited upon the Lord in silence , and so the Rivers of living Water , which flow out of his belly that believes , as the Scripture saith , John 7. 38. we have often drunk together of ; and this living Water , which our God hath opened the Fountain of , must run in its own course and channel , and must not be stopt nor limited , nor driven back , nor have its course altered by man's will , or by the persecuting spirit ; because the Lord hath sent it forth , and made it as a broad River . And it is the more evident and apparant , that the Lord's Power and Presence is in our Assemblies , and that he hath made use of them for the spreading of his own Name and Truth , and for the furtherance of his own work of Righteonsness ( that many might be turned from darkness to Light , and from Satan's power to God ) because that the enmity , wrath and malice of Satan in his instruments and unrighteousness among them , so highly appears against them ; and Satan is so strongly at work against them , whose work was and is , to cast the Saints into Prison for the Testimony of JESUS , Rev. 2. 10. as knowing , that if this Testimony of Truth go on ( which greatly is concerned in our Meetings ) it will weaken and overthrow Satans Kingdom in men : But he is not troubled , nor disturbed at the many prophane and ungodly Meetings in this Nation , at which wickedness is stirred up and increased , such as Fools with their antick and bruitish postures upon Stages , in the great Fairs , and other places , do gather People to ; where they have their foolish Playes , Sports , Fidlings , Dancings , &c. for both these and many other prophane Meetings and Gatherings of People , do please Satan , and make for his Kingdom . And as it is objected against us for meeting so publickly , that we might reduce our Meetings into small numbers , and meet more occultly , and yet be clear in our consciences , &c. In like manner it might as well be objected against the Prophet Daniel , that he might have prayed more privately , and not with window open , and three times a day as before , after that King Darius had sealed a Decree , that none should ask a Petition of any God or man for thirty dayes , save of the King , upon the penalty of being cast into the Lions Den ; when yet for all this , Daniel in obedience to God , prayed and praised God as before , Dan. 6. And so our Meetings being in obedience to the Lord God , and according to that Liberty which he hath given us , we must not lose our Testimony which is for God therein , but be faithful in holding it forth as he requires , and gives us Liberty , whatever we suffer for it ; it being neither mens threatning us , nor inflicting their Severity or Cruelty upon us ( how far soever it extends ) that must make us deny the Lord herein , or be ashamed of Christ before men , lest he be ashamed of us before his heavenly Father . And Christ Jesus in the dayes of his flesh had Meetings of Multitudes , that he preached to in Mountains , Desarts , and such like places ; yea , of five thousand at one time , Mat. 5. and chap. 14. Mark 6. Luke 9. which appears was not such an offence in those dayes , as now Meetings are , which are for the same end : for though the Jews had a Temple and Synagogues to meet in then , yet we do not reade , that they made any Law or Statute to Punish , Imprison or Banish Christ or his Followers and Hearers for meeting above the number of four , apart from their Assemblies ; for that to be sure , would not have admitted Christ and his twelve Disciples to meet together , but only he , and three of them [ for now , are we liable to Suffer , if we meet in the Worship of God to the number of five , or above , from our Habitations ] Howbeit , after the Apostle Peter had preached Christ to such a great number of People , that there were about three thousand souls added in one day , Act. 2. 41. The Priests and Rulers among the Jews were offended , and commanded Peter and John that in no wise , they should speak or teach in the Name of JESUS ; but they chused rather to obey God than men , and said , We cannot but speake the things that we have both seen and heard : And the Apostles and Primitive Christians met often in houses and other places : And the Hebrews were exhorted not to forsake the assembling of themselves together , as the manner of some was , but to exhort one another ; and these sought a City to come , Heb. 10. 25. and 13. 14. And in the same case with the Saints of old are we engaged in the same Spirit , both in our meeting together in the Name of Christ , and in owning and bearing witness to his Name and Testimony therein ; which they that would debar us of our liberty in the one , do thereby endeavour to stop us from the other , that we might not witness forth the Name of Jesus in that duty of meeting together ; which how contrary this is to the very mind of Christ , and opposite to his and his Followers practice , is very apparent ; and the endeavouring by Persecution and carnal Force to reduce our Meetings into such narrowness and small numbers , how contrary and oppugnant it is to the very nature of that Universal Spirit , Testimony , and Love of God , which is of a general extent , and which we bear witness of , is also evident : As also , how doth it infringe the liberty of the True Church , which desires the good of all ? ( and is not a persecuting Church against any for their Cousciences ) the state of which Church ( after the Apostacy ) is truly represented in the New Jerusalem , whose Gates are open continually , and shall not be shut neither by day , nor by night , Rev. 21. 25. Isa. 60. 11. so as both the City and Church of God , and his Light and Truth which shines in it , are free ; and this Truth ought publickly to be held forth , and appear without being limitted by man's will , who by Persecution and Compulsion would shut up the Gates of Sion and Jerusalem , which the Lord God in his Free and Universal Love hath set open ; and it was promised that In the last dayes the Mountain of the House of the Lord should be prepared in the tops of the Mountains , and exalted above the Hills ; and Nations should flow unto it , Isa. 2. Micah 4. Now who shall attempt to put a stop to the Work of God ( which he is now bringing to pass as he hath determined ) or to hinder multitudes from flowing to his Mountain , and not to be found striving against God ? So that would you Rulers , Magistrates and Officers , who persecute us for this our consciencious duty of meeting together , seriously consider your wayes , and what you do in this case ; and how that it is evidently for our consciences that so many of us are imprisoned , and cast into nasty holes , only for our performing that duty which God requires . Herein you might see , that you are striving against God and his Work which he is bringing to pass amongst us in this Nation , whatever colour , pretence or gloss you put upon your proceedings to the contrary , though you may pretend it for the preventing of dangerous growing mischiefs that you seem to suppose or imagine , may arise or follow from them ; which you never yet had any real ground to surmise of us ; so that it were more prudence and Equity in you , to examin what evil or unlawful Act we ever did or contrived in our Meetings ? or what evil consequence they have ever been of , either to the Nation or Govrenment ? rather then to cast Innocent men and women into Prisons and nasty Holes , and prosecute them in order to Banishment upon a meer groundless surmise , and supposition of what danger or mischiefs may arise from them . And you that sit to judge any of us , called Quakers , in this matter ( who should by your own Oath do equal Law , and execution of Right to all ) ought not upon such groundless suppositions or surmisings against our Meetings , to go about to incense Juries , or the Countries against us , when they have no evidence nor proof of any evil or injury done by us against any man whatsoever [ as some have done ] for if you do , God will call you to an account for it : Therefore beware how you either entertain prejudice , or breath forth threatning , or such evil surmisings against us who are Innocent , or pass Judgment upon Innocent men for matter of Conscience or Worship ( which is the very thing we are concerned in , and suffer for ) as you will answer it before the Righteous God of Heaven and Earth in the day of Account ; for you should judge for God , and not for man , and mind his just and righteous Principle of Light in you , to direct you ; which calls for Equity and Righteousness , and not to be byassed by any man whatsoever , to act as men pleasers , nor to gratifie the prejudiced spirits of such as are in emnity against us , though they be never so high or great , Nor to punish the Righteous , but the wicked : for the Law was not made for the Righteous , but for the Wicked ; neither are Magistrates to be a terror to good works , but to evil . And to be sure , if you knew , or could prove our Meetings seditious , or for any evil intent or design ; as either to contrive Insurrections , or to conspire against the Government or Peace of the Nation ( as some have seemed to surmise ) you would not admit of four besides the respective Families to meet ; seeing that if but three meet upon an unlawful design , or to do an unlawful act , it is an unlawful Meeting : but thanks be to God , you have no such thing of any criminal matter against us in this case , whatever you pretend ; for 't is evident we suffer for a matter of Conscience towards God , and for his Worship , though you would not be seen to persecute us upon that account ; but some of you would surmise some criminal matter , or heineous things against us , which you had never any proof or evidence of , but only your suppositions of what may be ; So let the Righteous God and his Witness in your consciences judge between you and us in this matter , [ but we see that such as persecute tender consciences are no competent judges in consciencious matters . ] And it will neither be the pretence of Law , or of Order from the King , or of doing his Service , ( as some have pretended ) that will excuse you in Persecuting , or going about to Exile an Innocent People : For as you ought to do Justice , equal Law and Right , and to judge for God , and not for man , so not to impugn the Law of God by any Law or Order from man , whatsoever ; for Gods Law hath no man , of what estate or degree soever , power to dispense withal , nor ought any Law ( or proceedings ) of man to oppose or contradict the Law of God ( which we own ) and this hath been owned as a maxim both in Law and Divinity , that whatsoever Laws are Contra Verbum Dei , be void . As also the Judges , or King's Justices ( so called ) ought not to proceed against Innocent men , either to banish or otherwise to oppress them , either under pretence of obedience to him , or otherwise , but truly to counsel and warn the King for the best , both for his own and the Nations good , and not to joyn or assent to him in any thing or commandment , which may turn to his damage , or debar the Subjects of having Justice or Right done them , but lawfully to counsel him to the contrary , ( if they shall have occasion therein from him ) and this is according to their own Law , see the King's Judges Oath , Anno. 18. Edw. 3. Stat. 3. viz. Ye shall swear , That well and lawfully ye shall serve our Sovereign Lord the King , and his People in the Office of Justice , and that lawfully ye shall counsel the King in his business ; and that ye shall not counsel nor assent to any thing which may turn him to damage or disherison by any manner , way or colour — And that ye shall not know the damage or disherison of him whereof ye shall not do him to be warned by your self or by other : And that ye shall do even Law , and execution of Right to all his Subjects , Rich and Poor , without having regard to any person . And Stat. 20. Edw. 3. c. 1. We have commanded all our Justices , that they shall from henceforth do even Law , and execution of Right to all our Subjects , rich and poor , without having regard to any person ; and without letting to do Right for any Letters or Commandment which may come to them from us , or from any other , or by any other cause . As also according to the Petition of Right which K. Charles the first Anno 3. fully assented to the Parliament ( or Nations ) Request , for Right to be done ( upon their complaint of some violation done against the Fundamental Laws of the Land ) Is it not apparent therein , that according to Magna Charta , or the great Charter of the Liberties of England , provision is made , That no Free-man shall be taken or Imprisoned , or Disseised of his Free-hold , Liberties or Free-Customes , or be Out-law'd , or Exiled , or in any manner destroyed , but by the lawful judgment of his Peers , or by the Law of the Land , &c. As also in the said Petition , mention is made , that in the 28th year of King Edw. 3d. it was declared and enacted by Authority of Parliament , That no man of what Estate or condition that he be , should be put out of Land or Tenements , nor taken , nor Imprisoned , nor disherited , nor put to death , without being brought to answer by due Process of Law , &c. Complaint hereupon was , That divers of his Subject were Imprisoned without any cause shewed , but when they were brought before his Justices , to undergo as the Court should order , no cause was certified of their detainer by the Keepers , but that they were detained by his Majesties special command , &c. And now but compare the present proceedings against us , with Magna Charta , the Petition of Right , and the Fundamental Laws of the Land , and the Reason thereof ( which they are said to be grounded upon ) and see how they 'l hold parallel . For how many of the harmless Innocent People of God , particularly in and about this City of London , are haled by violence out of their peaceable Meetings , and sent to Prison for certain dayes , many times without any further Tryal , till they be tried for the third supposed Offence that they are accounted to deserve Exilement or Transportation without any just cause or criminal matter being shewed against them , of any injury or offence done by them , or proof of any transgression of any Just or Righteous Law whatsoever ; but a late Act which is said in the Title and Preamble , to be made to prevent and suppress Seditious Conventicles ; and for the providing speedy remedies against the growing , and dangerous practises of such , who under pretence of tender consciences , do at their Meetings , contrive Insurrections , &c. Which doth not at all reach us , nor ought , in either Equity or Reason to be prosecuted against us ; for seeing the Law of the Land is said to be grounded upon Reason , and to receive principally its grounds from the Laws of God , and the Law of Reason , and Reason the life of the Law , [ See 28. Hen. 8. ch . 7. & Prisot . Doct. & St. : lib. 1. ch . 6. Co. 3. 46. Fi. 3. & Dalt . Just. Pas. ] and nihil quod est inconveniens est licitum , [ as also ] nihil quod est contra rationem est licitum . See Cooks Commentaries upon Littleton , p. 106. Confider , can that be truly said to be the Law of the Land , which in the prosecution contradicteth both Reason and Law , and [ on that consideration especially ] is repugnant to the Fundamental Laws ( and debars the Subject of having due Process according to the Ancient Law ) of the Land , which requires , that No Free-man shall be Imprisoned , Exiled , &c. without due Process , fair and legal Examination and Tryal , and lawful Judgment of his Equals , ( or Verdict of twelve lawful , honest and competent men , &c. ) See 37. Ed. 3. ch . 8. and 28. Ed. 3. chap. 3. and 42. Ed. 3. ch . 3. and Cook 2d part Inst. pag. 49. and 50. But this manner of proceeding ( as is now ) against Innocent men and persons , to imprisoning and banishing them out of the Nation , is both inconvenient and prejudicial to the Nation many wayes , though they whose hearts are hardened in sin and emnity , will not see it ; but whilst our Plea for Right by the Law , as Subjects , may not be heard , I shall say the less upon that account , and refer our Case to mens Consciences in the sight of God. And we find , that those chiefly set themselves against us ( as to profecute and sentence us ) are so far from being impartial and competent in their proceedings , or our Peers or Equals , that they are both in prejudice and emnity against us , and want the Moderation and Reason as to suffer us to have a fair tryal according to the very reason , form and letter of their own Law : who reckon they have enough proved against us for conviction , if it be proved that there was any Religious Exercise in our Meeting , as Preaching , Praying , &c. ( not questioning whether the Exercise was true according to the Scripture or Saints practices in it self , Yea , or Nay ) and yet when it is laid home upon them , that we suffer for worshipping God according to our consciences , and his requirings , they would not hear of that , but charge us with Obstinacy , Sedition , Rebellion , or the like , in our Meeting , wherein we are apparently injured ; as also , sometimes when there can be no proof made of any exercise of Religion , nor colour or pretence thereof in our Meetings , but we are taken in silence ( wherein our minds are often exercised towards God , simply without any such outward colour or pretence , as they would accuse us of ; ) Thus our being taken simply in a Meeting in silence , they proceed against us for , in order to Banishment . Let the Prudent judge of these things . And whereas sometimes the Soldiers ( or Red-coats ) and sometimes Halbert-men and other persons ( who have violently haled us out of our Meetings , and guarded us with Musquets and Halberts , &c. to Prisons ) and of late some of Newgate Goalers are made use of to inform and give Evidence against us . These , and such mercenary men , we cannot look upon to be any competent or impartial Witnesses : And some of the Magistrates so far debase themselves , as to come in person to Meetings ( as the Mayor , R. Brown , &c. ) to break them up , from thence supposing their seeing us met , to be the notorious Evidence of the Fact ; and thereupon causing Innocent persons to be driven , both men and women , to Newgate , or other Prisons , like Sheep to the slaughter , when no evil , harm , or prejudice they could ever yet prove by our Meetings that ever they produced ; yet notwithstanding they hasten their work to rid the Nation of us ; and so bring peaceable honest men into competition with Thieves , Felons or such like , who sometimes after they are condemned , are reprieved to be sent over Sea to save them from hanging . And many others of our Friends upon their Imprisonment , being crouded up so many together in a noysome Prison , have been so stifled and oppressed in their natural spirits and vitals , not having room enough to lye down in , [ and many have been forced to walk all night without upon Newgate on the Leads divers times , the Prison being crowded so full ] that presently after they have been let out of Prison , have sickened and dyed , as did many , both men and women in this year , 1664. ( and some in Prison ) besides many that died Prisoners in the year 1662. And now you that are so eager or forward in sending so many innocent persons to Prisons , without either respect to sex , or shewing so much as natural affection ; Is it not high time to lay this Oppression to heart ? Is this the Priviledge of Free-born Englishmen and women that fear and worship God , thus to be oppressed , stifled or destroyed , or any of them exiled or banished ? Do you do as you would be done by ? What , is all Tenderness , Compassion , and bowels of Mercy lost amongst you , that such inhumanity , and cruelty it self appears against your fellow creatures , who when you have cast them into Holes and Prisons , into the hands of hard-hearted men ( who can cast them into what holes they please , either among the rude Felons to be abused , or into as bad as they can find to put men into , as some of us have sometime been used , when we could not gratifie the Goalers covetous and unreasonable demands ) then some of you care not , or take no notice what becomes of these innocent Sufferers ; though some others in Authority that are more moderate may be a little touched sometime when these things are laid before them : O! what a blemish is this Cruelty to this Nation , and this Persecution , and greivous Oppression to the profession of Christianity ! Oh! the Righteous God takes notice , and will visit for these proceedings : O you that persecute the Innocent ( in this wise ) whom you have nothing against but what concerns the Law of their God , ( as the more it will appear and be sounded out , the more we suffer for the same , and the lowder will the cry of this greivous Oppression be ) Repent , Repent , and remember your latter end , who have a hand in this work against us ; for you must dye like men , and your Pomp must come to the grave , you being but men , and not God , who ought not to assume his Prerogative upon you , as to seek to lord and rule over mens Consciences by carnal Force or Impositions , by pretence of penal Laws or otherwise . And this Hard-heartedness , Cruelty , Persecution , Oppression and inhumane proceeding , and going about to exile or destroy a People or Persons for their Religion and Conscience , is never the way to perswade or make us believe that you are Members of the True Church , nor to induce any that are rational to comply with you , or conform to you in your way or worship ; neither will Violence , Oppression , Take him away Goaler , Banishing , or threatning Hanging against men that are conscientious towards God , ever prove any effectual Argument for you to end the Controversie that 's now in hand ; nor ever to make your Church glorious or renowned : for we cannot believe that a Persecuting-Church is a True Church ; for from whence sprung and broke forth this Imprisoning , Persecution and Hatred for matters of Religion and Conscience , but from Devil , Cain , false Prophet , Antichrist , Whore , Beast and Dragon , and not from the Christian Spirit in the true Church and Saints . And the like proceedings as are now we find mentioned in the large Volumn of the Book of Martyrs , pag. 431. in King Richard the 2d's time , from Pope Gregory in his Bull against John Wickliff ( where , in several things , he dissented from the Church of Rome ) where the Pope in his Bull , directed to his Sons , the Chancellor and University of Oxford , Commanding them that they should not suffer his pestilent Heresies , and subtil and false Conclusions and Propositions ( as he called them ) any longer to be disputed or brought in question , and that they apprehend immediately the said John Wickliff , and deliver him to be detained in the safe custody of the Pope's welbeloved brethren , the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Bishop of London , or either of them , &c. and in like manner to apprehend those that were corrupted with his Errors , that should obstinately stand in them ( as he said . ) And is not this the manner of the present proceedings against us , or such as are reckoned to be in Error and Heresie , that instead of suffering them to dispute , or to have those things fairly discust , wherein they are by the Bishops and Clergy deemed erroneous and Hereticks from the Church of England , their mouths must be stopt , and they cast into Holes and Prisons ; some from their Ecclesiastical censures and proceedings in their Spiritual Courts ( so called ) against them , after they have excommunicated men , and procured those called Significavier's and Writs of Capias against'them ; And others are imprisoned and proceeded against in their Temporal Courts , some to a Praemunire , others sentenced to Transportation or Banishment ( as if they were Thieves or Felons that deserved death ) and not to return within the time limited , upon pain of being proceeded against as Felons and Murderers ; and many of them taken by Souldiers and Armed-men out of their Peaceable Meetings and haled to Prisons ; and thus the Innocent are made a prey upon . And what do such severe and unchristian-like proceedings against us tend to , where both Bishops , Priests , Rulers , Officers , [ and so both the Spiritual and Temporal , Ecclesiastical and Civil ( so called ) and the Military Forces also ] are thus severely at work against us , but to destroy us , if the Lord did not sustain us ? And moreover , It was said in the Law of God to Israel of old , Thou shalt not do injury to a stranger , neither oppress him ; ye shall not trouble any Widow nor Fatherless-Child : if thou vex or trouble such , and so he call and cry unto me , I will surely hear his cry , saith the Lord ; then shall my Wrath be kindled , and I will kill you , &c. See Exod. 22. 21 , 22 , 23 , 24. Now ( mark ) if God would hear the cry of the Stranger , Widdow and Fatherless that were wronged and oppressed , and be avenged on their Oppressors ; what will become of you that have a hand against us , if you go on oppressing your Neighbours , or those of your own Nation , who are Free-born English-people ? And if you go on to separate and and banish Innocent men from their Wives and Children , and so by that means you make them Widdows and Fatherless , and expose them to ruine outwardly ; How will you answer this before the Righteous God of Heaven and Earth , who will assuredly hear their Cry against you ; ( yea God will hear them , even as they are his creatures , that cry and groan under the Oppression and Injury done them ) for Justice at his hand , being that they ought to have their liberty and interest in the Creation as well as your selves , or others of their fellow creatures ; and then will the Just God bring Wo upon all that decree or act unrighteously , to keep back the poor from Judgment , and to take away Judgment or Right from his People ; that Widdows may be their prey , and that they may spoile the Fatherless , Isa. 10. And then , what will ye do in the day of Visitation and Destruction ? to whom will ye flee for help ? and where will ye leave your glory ? ver . 3. Will your joyning hand in hand , or your forces together , secure you from the stroak of Gods Justice ? No sure ; for if you go on without Repentance , mark the end of these harsh , severe , & cruel proceedings . And mark the end of Oppressors , and of the Wicked whose Rod and Scepter the Lord will break , See Isa. 14. as that of the King of Babel the Oppressor , for whom Hell beneath was moved to meet him , and whose Pomp and sound of his Viols was brought down to the grave , that worms might cover him : Or that Lucifer , who said , he would ascend into Heaven , and exalt his Throne above the Stars of God , [ as such now in effect say , who in a Lucifer-like spirit ; would rule over the Consciences of God's People , and so set themselves above them , who are his Stars which he hath fixed in the Firmament of his Power ] but he who thus exalted and presumed , was to be brought down to the Grave , and to the sides of the Pit ; who opened not the house of his Prisoners ; and he was to be cast out as an abominable branch , for he had destroyed his Land and slain his People ; he was of the seed of the wicked which was never to be renowned . Mark these things , and consider your wayes and actions and what they tend to . And if they who did not visit nor minister to Christ in Prison ( in that they did not visit those that believed in him ) were to depart into everlasting fire , Mat. 25. What will become of you that imprison Christ ( in his Members ) inasmuch as you do it to his little ones that believe in him , which he that shall offend any of them , he had better never have been born ? And where will you hide your selves , or flee for refuge in the great day of the Lamb's Wrath ? ( which assuredly will come upon them that make War against him and his Followers ) When the Kings of the Earth , and the Great men , and Rich men , and the chief Captains and Mighty Men , and every Bond-man , and every Free-man shall hide themselves in Dens , and in the Rocks of the Mountains ; and say to the Mountains and Rocks , Fall on us , and hide us from the presence of him that sits on the Throne , Rev. 6. Then both the Masters , and Servants or Bond-men in this work of Persecution , and oppressing and injuring their-fellow creatures , will not be able to clear nor excuse themselves before the Lord God ; nor the subordinate Ministers or Officers , saying , they do their Superiors or Kings service in what they do , acquit them from the reward which they must have from the Righteous God according to their deeds ; who have had many Informations and Warnings , in which the Spirit of the Lord God hath striven with this Nation , but will not alwaies ; Which had not these things been laid upon me thereby , I had not sent them forth . Part of this was written in the 7th month , 1664. in Southwark . THE END . 
A65844	----	The case of the Quakers concerning oaths defended as evangelical in answer to a book, entituled, The case of the Quakers relating to oaths stated by J.S. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1674 Approx. 118 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 26 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65844 Wing W1899 ESTC R19753 12290234 ocm 12290234 58875 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65844) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58875) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:10) The case of the Quakers concerning oaths defended as evangelical in answer to a book, entituled, The case of the Quakers relating to oaths stated by J.S. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 51 p. s.n.], [London? : 1674. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to George Whitehead. cf. NUC pre-1956. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng J. S. -- Case of the Quakers relating to oaths. Society of Friends -- Doctrines. Oaths -- Biblical teaching -- Early works to 1800. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Rachel Losh Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Rachel Losh Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE CASE OF THE QUAKERS Concerning OATHS Defended as Evangelical : IN ANSWER To a Book , entituled , The Case of the Quakers relating to OATHS stated by J. S. Because of Swearing the Land Mourneth , Jer. 23. 10. Printed in the Year , 1674. THE PREFACE . READER , IF thou hast perused the said Pamphlet against the People called Quakers , entituled [ The Case of the Quakers ] we desire thee to read over this following Answer ; But if thou art not pleased so to do , thou art requested ( according to the Rule of Equity ) not to entertain prejudice , nor to censure the said People upon the meer report and reproaches of their Adversarys , it being unjust to pass a Judgment upon a People without hearing them , upon the bare Reports of their Enemies . However , this Disadvantage we are put upon in the Eyes of the World , that our Enemies will be our Judges , and that at the Instigation of the Father of Lyes . Be pleased to take notice , that while our Adversary scoffs at our Plea , as that our Conscience will not allow us to Swear , he saith , we actually do Swear , in as solemn and August a Form as 't is possible for the Tongue of Man to express , in our saying , God , who is the Searcher of Hearts knows , that it is with a Holy Respect , &c. And thus he does not only render us to contradict our own Doctrine , but also in like manner represents the Apostle Paul , as frequently confirming his Sayings with an Oath in these and such Expressions , God is my Witness ; I say the Truth in Christ ; I Lye not ; The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ knows , that I Lye not , &c. which were in his Epistles to the Saints , and not formal Swearing on the four Evangelists before the Magistrates . Howbeit he is mistaken in his Reckoning these and such like words a most solemn and august Form of Actual Swearing : And what can he argue from hence , but that Paul most highly swore in his Epistles upon a sacred Account , therefore we ought to Swear before Rulers in Courts ? which follows not , though he reckons we do Swear in saying , God knows : But does not perswade the Magistrates to accept of it for an Oath , but rather vilifies us . However , herein we are not of his Mind , that either the Apostles or primitive Christians did swear , or held it lawful ; for we make a Difference between earnest Affirmations , and Swearing ; and they did really speak the Truth in Christ , unto which God was Witness ; and this was in a state so n●arly related to God , as that of being in Christ , wherein they could neither speak nor do any thing against the Truth : But the state of the Jews under the Law was much inferiour to this , wherein their Swearing by the Lord ( as the Chief Judge and Revenger of Falshood and Injury ) was in a more remote state , when they formally bound themselves by an Oath , or conditional Curse , which was a Bond upon their Souls , when they feared it ( as few do now who are in the Swearing Nature ) But there is no need for the true Christians in Christ to use Imprecations , or to pronounce any conditional Curse against themselves to bind their Souls ; and we have not so learned Christ , as thus to Swear or Curse ; but to say the Truth in Christ , unto which God is witness , which is not to Swear the Truth in Christ , nor to bind our Souls with an Implicite Curse in his Name ( knowing also , that the Penalty from God of all Lyars is the Lake of Misery , as well as of false Swearers ) For , where did the Apostle Paul say , I Swear the Truth in Christ ? Howbeit , if otherwise our Conscience , as to our simple Affirmation or Denyal in Yea or Nay be question'd , we have proposed to those in Power thus , That we desire and request , that you will be pleased to Enact and Provide , that in stead and place thereof , as the Cases may require , our Yea and Nay may be accepted and taken ; and if we break our Yea and our Nay , which is Christ's solemn Form of sound words , and which is his Gospel Command , which we stand to and for , then let us suffer the same Penalty as they that can Swear , and break their Oaths : This we have left to the serious Consideration of those in Power ; and not to the Prejudice of malicious men , such as our Opposer , who , like a Busy Body , hath vainly spent his Labour against us . This is written on behalf , and in the Person of the People of God called Quakers , and their Evangelical Testimony , by some who are Lovers of the said People , and the Souls of all Men. THE CASE of the QUAKERS Concerning OATHS Defended as Evangelical , &c. Section I. Of the Nature and Extent of Oaths , not a Property of True Christians . LEt the serious Reader judge , whether our Opposer J. S. hath taken a Christian Way and Method to convince us of Error or not , by Vilifying and Railing , calling us Monsters of men , impudent , obstinate and reprobate-minded men , as in his second and sixth pages ; and on serious Examination of his Matter , we shall find it as ineffectual for the same End , as in his first Argument , to prove the Lawfulness of Swearing . He Instanceth Paul's saying , God is my Witness , Rom. 1. 9. I say the Truth in Christ ; I Lye not ; my Conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost , Rom. 9. 1. Together with 2 Cor. 1. 23. chap. 11. 37. Gal. 1. 20. Phil. 1. 8. 1 Thess. 2. 10. Ye are Witnesses , and God also . And these Forms of Speech he saith , are sacred Oaths ; and that the Definition of an Oath in the common Notion of Mankind , is nothing else but the calling God to Witness to the truth of what we say , p. 2. It appears that he varies , and is confounded about the definition of an Oath ; for one while he saith , It is the Invocation of God's Name , a most solemn Invocation of the Divine Majesty ; Another while it is the Denouncing of a Curse ; p. 4. Another while a man's calling God for a Witness against his Soul , daring him to his Face , challenging the Divine Vengeance to do its worst in case he swear falsly , p. 13. Now , Reader , be pleased to observe , first , his Variation and Contradiction , between his saying , An Oath is nothing else but a calling God to witness , and the pronouncing of a Curse , daring God to his Face , challenging Divine Vengeance to do its worst . As for the first , We cannot be convinced that it makes up a formal Oath among Christians , to whose Testimony God is Witness as he was to Paul's . As for the latter , It is more then an Oath , and savours of high Presumption , unbecoming a Christian-Spirit , either to dare God to his Face , or challenge Divine Vengeance . Besides , if those very words of Paul , God is my Witness , make up a formal Oath by him , then we ask , If his saying , My Conscience bearing me witness , and Ye are Witnesses , doth not ( by the same Reason ) make up a Formal Oath , by his Conscience , and by those Saints to whom he wrote ? And were not this most grosly to charge Paul with Transgression both of Law and Gospel ? Whereas in a Formal Oath , as made amongst Men , there is , First , Swearing by the Great God intended ; Secondly , An Imprecation or Curse contained ; Thirdly , Some Ceremony or Sign used * besides the bare words of invocating or calling upon God ( or so help me God ) For that the same Invocation may as well be used without an Oath , even in our praying for God's Help and Assistance . The words , So help me God , or I call God to witness , may be used without any Intent of Swearing , as well as in an Oath ; in desiring his Help , and simply as owning him for Witness to the Truth spoken in Christ , which , as such , is not an Oath ; but when thus intended * viz. So let me have or want the Help of God according as I speak the Truth ; or so let God be Witness , or judge for or against me : In this latter Sense is an Oath implying a Curse ; as , Let God be Witness or Judge against me if I speak not the Truth ; but the bare words , so God help me , or God is my Witness , or God knows I speak the Truth in Christ , I Lye not , cannot be a Swearing ( nor a Formal Oath ) without an Intention thereof , or of an Imprecation or Execration implyed , as of old some time an Oath of Cursing was used among the Jews ; and there are several Sorts of Oathes , and several Wayes or Ceremonies expressing Formal Swearing , as among the Heathen , Laying the Hands upon the Altar , and Swearing by the Gods ; * Abraham's Servant putting his Hand under his Thigh ; the Angel Lifting up the Hand towards Heaven ; among the professed Christians , a Laying the Hand upon a Bible , and Kissing it , or Swearing upon the four Evangelists ( according to the Pope's Imposition . ) However , we taking the last , as the Magistrates general Sense of an Oath ; the Definition thereof is not so much the Matter in Controversie , as the Lawfulness or Unlawfulness of Swearing among Christians . His Instance , that Jacob Swore by the Fear of his Father Isaac , proves not that Laban's simply saying God is Witness , makes up a formal Oath ; seeing he also said , This Heap ( viz. of Stones ) is Witness between me and thee , see Gen. 31. VVill any presume to say , That he Swore by the Heap of Stones , which was a Witness or a Memorial ? His accusing St. Paul , notwithstanding Christ's prohibition , that he did frequently confirm his Sayings with an Oath ; is both a gross Abuse of Paul , and contradicts this man's confessing that he delivered the Truth with great Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power , and that by Manifestation of the Truth he commended himself to every man's Conscience in the Sight of God , 1 Cor. 2. 4 , 13. 2 Cor. 4. 2. Surely the Demonstration of the Spirit , and Manifestation of the Truth , was not Swearing to every man's Conscience ; for there was no need of Swearing where the Truth was so manifest among the Saints . But to say , that Paul did frequently confirm his Sayings with an Oath , renders him both of very little Power , Manifestation or Credit , as a Minister of Christ among his Saints and Churches ( none of them excepted ) and them also to have as little Knowledge and Confidence of Paul and his Testimony . Further , He varies between saying , God is Witness , and mens calling him for a Record against their Soul ; where he brings Augustine for a Proof that Paul Swore in these words : If so , Augustine is not constant to himself , nor with other Fathers , particularly Basil. on Psal. 14. pag. 155. of his Works , impr . at Paris 1618. where he saith , There are some Speeches which have the form of an Oath , which are not Oathes , but are Remedies for the Hearer ; as the Apostle to the Corinthians , willing to shew his Love , said , Yea , or by your Rejoycing , &c. for he was not disobedient to the Doctrine of the Gospel , who was intrusted with the Gospel : but he gave a small word in the Form of an Oath ; that their Rejoycing was most desirous to him he shewed by such a manner of Speech . Thus far Basil , though we know the Particle [ by ] is not alwayes a Note of Swearing . In his second Argument he grants , that Justice may be administred according to the Rule of the Gospel by the Testimony of Two or Three Witnesses , Mat. 18. 16. but not of one without an Oath ( as taking in God to witness with him ) where there is but one Witness , as in the Case instanced , Exed . 22. 10 , 11. However , that Testimony of Two or Three Witnesses may decide a Controversie without an Oath ; and where there is but one faithful Witness , God is Witness with him and for him therein , and hath a Witness for him in men's Consciences . And the Law-makers ( to whom we have applyed , and not to such busie Opposers as this Agent against us ) have Power to make Provision for such a one as cannot for Conscience sake Swear , that his Testimony may be taken instead of an Oath , especially he being willing to undergo the same Penalty that is due to perjured Persons , if he be found false in his Testimony , as we have proposed ; however , this Opposer takes little notice thereof . And many in Authority have confessed our Proposition therein to be fair and sufficient , and not at all tending to obstruct the Administration of Justice , nor to patronize Injustice , as is most falsly insinuated against us , pag. 3. In his third Argument he asserts , That the Spirit of Christ in the Old Testament Prophets did commend Swearing by God , as that which was to be the practice of his Elect Servants in the Christian-Church , after his Rejection of the Jews and chusing the Gentiles . Answ. We deny this Assumption , that they did so commend Swearing , as a Practice to continue in the Christian-Church among Jews and Gentiles ; For Christ and his Apostles Prohibition of Swearing at all , either by Heaven or Earth , or any other Oath , was of an Universal Extent to both Jews and Gentiles that come to be of the Christian-Church , both forbidding such Swearing , as the Jews of old time used under the Law , viz. by the Lord ; and the Apostate Jews and Gentiles Swearing by Idols , or the Creatures , or any Oath whatsoever . He attempts to prove his Assumption from Isa. 56. 15. And ye shall leave your Name for a Curse to my Chosen ; that is ( saith he ) the people that I shall chuse from among the Gentiles shall use your Name in Execration , when they have a mind to denounce a Curse , &c. And this he brings to prove Swearing a Practice to continue amongst God's Elect Servants in the Christian-Church : And so he would perswade them , not only to Swear contrary to Christ's Command , but to use Execrations , and to denounce a Curse when they have a mind , as he supposes ; which is contrary to Christ and his Apostles Doctrine , who taught the Elect to Bless those that Curse them , and to Bless , and Curse not ; for , to Bless God and Curse man ought not to be . In his fourth Argument he saith , The Spirit of Christ , which was in the Prophets , fore-told ; That in the Time of the Gospel the Lord's people should Swear by his Name , as an Evidence of their Conversion to him . Answ. This we also deny , together with his high Applause of Swearing , as an Evidence of man's Conversion in the Time of the Gospel , and as Divine Service and Homage , and as denoting an eminent Act of saving Confession to God , and as a part of Divine Worship , and as a Sign , Witness and Argument of Egypt 's Conversion , and the Language of Canaan , a pure Language , which God promised to restore to all Nations at the Coming of Christ ; yea , the Condition of God's accepting men for his people , the Condition of accepting us as sincere Disciples , the Way of God's People ; as may be seen in his 5th , 6th , 9th , 10th , 11th and 14th pages . All these high Commendations he attributes to Swearing by the Lord ; As if all those that so Swear must needs be such great Converts , divine Worshippers , attained to the pure Language of Cananan , highly accepted of God , sincere Disciples in God's Way , &c. Mark here , Swearing by the Lord is this man's Gospel , and the Condition of all his Felicity ; but such Ignorance and silly Stuff what rational man cannot see ? His Proof is , Isa 45. 23. and Chap. 19. 18. In the first it is said , I have Sworn by my self , the Word is gone out of my Mouth in Righteousness , and shall not return , that to me every Knee shall bow , every Tongue shall swear . In the second it is said , In that day shall five Cities in the Land of Egypt speak the Language of Canaan , and swear to the Lord of Hosts . There shall be an Altar to the Lord in the midst of the Land of Egypt , &c. Here he applies Swearing to Gospel-Times , so takes Swearing as literally under the Gospel , to continue , as under the Law , but not the Altar ; but confesseth , that the Altar here specified is no other then that which St. Paul mentions Heb. 13. 10. We have an Altar , &c. that is , saith he , Christ's Stable-Throne of Grace , p. 8. So that the Altar he interprets figuratively under the Gospel , but swearing literally ; see his Confusion : Whereas if the Altar be Christ's Stable-Throne of Grace , then by the same Reason he should have said , that by Swearing is intended a Gospel-Confession , according to the Apostle's own words , Rom. 14. 11. where mentioning the Prophets words before , instead of Every Tongue shall swear , he saith , Every Tongue shall confess to God. And likewise Phil. 2. 11. And that every Tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord , to the Glory of God the Father . It is not , every Tongue shall swear , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that Jesus Christ is Lord ; but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , shall confess , the same word that is in Rom. 10. 10. And with the Mouth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it is confessed , or Confession is made to Salvation ; And likewise in John 4. 2. Every Spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh is of God , there is the same word . He doth not make swearing that Jesus is the Christ , that Proof ; nor commend swearing to God in the Gospel , as an infallible Mark of man's Conversion , and the Condition of God's accepting them as sincere Disciples , as our Opposer doth : For many both can and do Swear by God , that never came to such Acceptance , nor to such a Confession of Christ , as is to God's Glory , which proceeds from a heart that believes to Salvation ; For that no man can thus confess to God , or say that Jesus is the Lord , but by the Holy Ghost , 1 Cor. 12. 3. But many can and do Swear without the Holy Ghost , therefore true Confession is Evangelical , and not Swearing . It is true , Confession from a believing Heart is an Evidence of Men's Conversion , and not making Oath or Swearing , which this Man seems to confess appertains to common humane Infirmity , p. 1. And what was that Infirmity upon which Swearing was occasioned under the Law , but man's Diffidence , Jealousie or Distrust , which if they had fulfilled the Principal and Royal Law of Love both to God and one another , there would have been no such occasion of Distrust ? Therefore Swearing was neither Moral , Perpetual nor Evangelical , as some suppose ; nor is it essential to the Divine Worship of God ( as this man vainly thinks ) which is in Spirit and Truth ; for that Worship was both before Swearing , and is performed without Swearing . That God himself swore by himself , who could not swear by a greater , we deny not ; But if this must be made an Argument , that therefore in this man may imitate God , who is his Maker , we deny the Consequence ; for this were to set up a Creature in the Creator's place : Nay , as good an Argument did the Serpent bring when he said , Ye shall be as God's , &c. To J. S. his saying , That to Swear by the Lord of Hosts is to speak the Language of Canaan , that pure Lauguage which God promised , &c. that pure and undefiled Religion , which was at first revealed to man in Paradice , p. 10. Answ. First , That God promised to return to his People a pure Language , we own ; and that they should serve him with one Consent ; therefore they should not need to Swear one to another , or be Swearers under the Gospel . Secondly , Nor doth he prove by Scripture , that to swear by the Lord of Hosts was that pure and undefiled Religion , which was at first revealed to Man in Paradice ; For this is to tell the World , that God taught Adam and Eve to Swear to each other in the State of Innocency , when there was no Occasion of Swearing . In his fifth Argument to prove Swearing in Gospel Times , the Condition of God's accepting Men for his People , such a Condition , as upon the fulfilling thereof he will number them among his Disciples , and account them his People that do , viz. learn to Swear by his Name , p. 11. For Proof of this erroneous Assertion he cites Jer. 12. 16. And it shall come to pass , that if they will diligently learn the Way of my People , to Swear by my Name ▪ the Lord liveth , as they taught my People to Swear by Baal , &c. Answ. This was in the Prophets Time ; and to be fulfilled under the Law ; There is not the same Reason for Christians under the Gospel , to swear by the Lord to divert them from Swearing by false Gods , as there was in those former dayes : For those that had learned to swear by Ball , viz. As Baal liveth , by the Life of Baal , &c. p. 12. which was opposed by swearing , As the Lord liveth , under the Law , and now confessing his Name , and making Confession to his Glory under the Gospel . His telling us of a diligent Learning to Swear by God's Name , and a learning this way of God's People , &c. p. 12 , 14 , 15. is , as if he should tell us , that to swear by the Name of the Lord is such a difficult and hard Lesson , that men must be very diligent to learn it , and therein come into God's Way and Condition of Acceptance ; when Drunkards , Lyars , Dissemblers , &c. can easily and do frequently tread that Path , and walk in that Way of Swearing both in and out of Courts . J. S. saith , Men may confess God in Prayer and Thanksgiving , and Attendance upon the Word and Sacraments , and yet not glorifie him sufficiently in order to God's accepting of them as true Worshippers , in order to his reputing them living Stones fit to be laid in the Walls of his House , the Church , except to those who are mentioned ; and all other wayes of expressing their Homage they add this of Swearing by his Name ; except they learn diligently withal to acknowledge his Omnisciency , Omnipotency , &c. by Swearing by his Fearful Name : Where this most solemn Invocation is denyed him he esteems all other Acts of Invocation not serious enough to obliege him that tenders them to a sincere Confession , pag. 13. Answ. Oh , what lamentable Doctrine & sad Work is this ! What is this but to tell the World , that they cannot acceptably confess God , nor sufficiently glorifie him , either in Prayer , Thanksgiving , Attendance on the Word , &c. unless withal they add thereto a Swearing by his Fearful Name ? which is to teach or tell People , When they go to Prayer , to Church , or else-where , they must go there to Swear ; and also in their Attendance upon the Word , while the Minister is preaching the people must swear ; and from thence , the more they Swear , the more they perform Divine Worship ; which therefore must needs be most effectually done where there is most frequent Swearing , and ( as his words are ) DARING GOD TO HIS FACE . And then a farther Abuse against God is , That without Swearing by his Name ( which he reckons a daring him to his Face ) he esteems all other Acts of Invocation and Prayer not serious enough to express a sincere Confession : Oh sad ! As if God did not regard a sincere Soul and upright Heart in his Devotion without Swearing ; or regarded not the Sighing and Breathing of the Needy , when he is worshipped in the Spirit and in the Truth . Again , J. S. in Justification of Swearing by the Name of God , saith ; God esteems this as the Highest and most August Act of Divine Worship that the Creature can possibly exhibit to him , and as that which eminently contains all others , and comprehends the whole Condition of the Gospel , all the wayes of God's People confessing to him ; and that Swearing by God implies the whole Worship of God , p. 13. Answ. This is such a Commendation of Swearing as we never read of before ; and such a Way of expressing the whole Worship of God , and the whole Condition of the Gospel , as neither God nor Christ ever taught him ; Nor yet did ever God say , when he allowed Swearing , that he allowed it as the highest and most august Act of Divine Worship . But 't is to be considered yet , whether this highest Act of Divine Worship , that eminently contains all others , to be administred by the Laity to all sorts of People without Distinction , be not the highest Degree of Prophanation ; or otherwise , Whether the Admistration thereof do make Clarks of Courts , Ministers of the Gospel and of the Clergy as well as Parish Clarks , yea , or nay ? Having taken notice of his high Commendation of swearing by the Lord , and the Advantage he hath promised thereupon , as no less then God's accepting them that so swear as sincere Disciples , and of his ingrafting them into his Evangelical Church ; Now let us take notice of his Threats against such as refuse to swear , or to learn this Way of Confessing God by swearing . It renders man obnoxious to the Dint of his Fearful Doom ; I will utterly pluck up and destroy that Nation ; And that God doth reject them ; And that he will not let them escape unpunished who will not learn to swear by his Name in Judgment , Righteousness and Truth they shall perish , &c. p. 14. But they that abide in the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles who said , Swear not at all , they will not fear such Threats ; nor do they value this man's vain Flourish , Boasting and Reviling , nor his threatning Familists , Anabaptists , Catharists , Quakers with Destruction , if they will not learn diligently to swear , contrary to what Christ learns us ; and because of Oaths the Land mourns ; and God's Hand and Controversie is against such Opposers of Christ's Doctrine and Urgers of Men to swear : Does not Christ say , I am the Way , the Truth and the Life ? And must not we walk in him the New and Living Way , and obey his Commands ? Sect. II. The End of Swearing and Oaths proved from the Texts commonly urged by us . HE undertakes the Explanation of the Texts we commonly urge against Swearing , which are . Mat. 5. 34. But I say to you , Swear not at all ; neither by Heaven , for it is God's Throne ; neither by the Earth , for it is his Footstool ; neither by Jerusalem , &c. But let your Communication be Yea , Yea , Nay , Nay ; for whatsoever is more then these cometh of Evil. And Jam. 5. 12. But above all things , my Brethren , Swear not , neither by Heaven , neither by the Earth , neither by any other Oath ; But let your Yea be Yea , and your Nay , Nay , lest ye fall into Condemnation . For our urging these , he most grosly and falsly reflects upon us , as dealing with those Texts as the Devil did with that which he quoted ( he should have said cited ) to Christ , Mat. 4. 6. out of Psal. 91. 11. leaving out in all thy Wayes ; so these Men , quoth he , wrest these Portions of Scripture , by making a Stop at Swear not at all , leaving out the words following , neither by Heaven , &c. Herein he abuseth us ; for first , we leave not out those words , as both ours and his own Citation proves , see our Case , p. 24. and his own Book , p. 15 ▪ Secondly , We make no other Stop but what the Greek Copies and Translations have after swear not at all ; where [ neither ] a Disjunctive follows , which he joyns in the same Colon or Member of Sentence ; whereas in the Greek after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , there is a middle Distinction , or severing of the Members of the Sentence , as likewise in the Latine after omnino , and in the English after at all : more fully explained by James , Swear not ; neither by Heaven , Earth , &c. nor ANY other Oath ; which this Opposer by his Meaning endeavours to restrain only to swearing by those or any Creatures , and also to irreverential and common Swearing , p. 23. and lavish Oaths , p. 24. voluntary rash Oathes , p. 31. and to swearing rashly , prophanely , irreverentially , in our ordinary Communication , p. 32. and in your common Talk , p. 36. as if only these were forbidden in the Texts before . But still he pleads for Swearing by the Lord reverently , besides the extent of the Prohibition before , neither by any other Oath ; As if this man should tell us , that Swearing by the Lord is no Oath : Who also presumes to tell us , Here is nothing forbidden but what was forbidden in the Law , when Swearing by the Lord was not only lawful but expresly commanded , Deut. 6. 13. & 10. 20. All which is answered by Christ himself , where he recites what was said in old time in this Case of Swearing ; as namely , It hath been said by them of old time , Thou shalt not Forswear thy self , but shalt perform to the Lord thy Oathes : But I say unto you , Swear not at all ; neither by Heaven , &c. But let your Communication be Yea , Yea , Nay , Nay , &c. Which makes it very plain , that here was more forbidden by Christ then what was by the Law , his words in this holding parallel with his very next words ; Ye have heard that it hath been saith , An Eye for an Eye , and a Tooth for a Tooth ; but I say unto you , That ye resist not Evil ; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right Cheek , turn to him the other also , vers . 38 , 39. Did not Christ himself hereby forbid his Disciples that kind of severe Retaliation which was allowed under the Law ▪ as he allowed divers and other things in Condescension to the People's Weakness , Deut. 24. 1. Matth. 5. 31 , 32. Luke 16. 18. And in this Case of God's allowing the Jews to swear under the Law , where he said , Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God , and serve him , and shalt Swear by his Name , Deut. 6. 13. This appears plainly to be a Condescension to their Weakness , and an Obligation to prevent them from going after other Gods , as is evident by the very next words ; Ye shall not go after other Gods , of the Gods of the people that are round about you , vers . 14. This State was much below the Evangelical State of the true Christians , who in the Love they bear to the Lord are engaged to speak the Truth in Yea and Nay without an Oath , as Christ & his Apostles have taught . So the Difference lies here , the Jews when bound by an Oath , they feared the Oath , or the Curse contained or implyed in it ( they Swearing by the Great God , as chiefly to be feared them , with regard to his Power to judge and avenge , &c. ) and this was for a time some tye upon them , to prevent them from going after other Gods. The True Christians are bound in their Consciences by the Royal and Evangelical Law of Love ( which was before Swearing was , and takes away the Occasion of Oaths ) to serve God , and speak the Truth every man to his Neighbour without Swearing . So that the Disparity between the State under the Law and that under the Gospel lies here ; Under the Law , Thou shalt fear the Lord , and Swear by his Name : Under the Gospel , Thou shalt so Love the Lord as to speak the Truth , and confirm it in Yea and Nay , without being bound by an Oath . Now judge , serious Reader , which of these do express more Love , Respect and Honour to God ; whether he that 's bound by an Oath not to go after other Gods , and to speak the Truth as fearing an Oath and the Curse ( which was the better use of Oaths , which now few that use them regard ) or he that is bound in Conscience to speak and do Truth without an Oath , whose word Yea and Nay is more binding to him , and of more Value and Credit then men's Swearing , Imprecations and Curses ? And likewise between man and man and Neighbours , which do express most Love one to another and Confidence in each other , they that will not believe one another without Oathes and Curses , or they that will ( like Christians ) speak the Truth , and believe one another's plain and simple Yea , Yea , and Nay , Nay , as Christ and his Apostle has commanded ? Such are the true Christians and People of God , as are come to the fulfilling of the Evangelical Prophesie ; Surely they are my People , Children that will not Lye , and so was he their Saviour , Isa. 63. 8. And the Remnant of Israel shall not speak Lyes , neither shall a Deceitful Tongue be found in their Mouth . But to return to Christ and his Apostles express Prohibition : But I say unto you , Swear not at all ; neither by Heaven , &c. nor by ANY OTHER Oath . Hereby Christians are so plainly forbidden Swearing in any Case , as Christ forbids an Eye for an Eye , and a Tooth for a Tooth , or hating thine Enemy , see Mat. 5. 39 , 44. Or else , what Coherence is there in his Words , and what Difference is there between the Dispensation of the Law and that of the Gospel , if ( as this man sayes ) Christ here forbids nothing but what was forbid in the Law ? By which he renders Christ as thus speaking , It hath been said by them of old time , Thou shalt not Forswear thy self , but shalt perform to the Lord thine Oaths ; And I say the same , Instead of , But I say unto you , Swear not at all . And likewsie ye have heard that it hath been said , An Eye for an Eye , and a Tooth for a Tooth ; And I say the same to you , instead of , But I say unto you , Resist not Evil , &c. And so this would make Christ still leave his Followers in the Fighting Revengful Nature ; as this man's limiting his words for Swearing as the Jews did , renders Christ as leaving his Followers but still in the same common Humane Infirmity ( as his words are ) and weak Distrusting and unsteady Condition , as the Jews under the Works of the Law were in , who were allowed to Swear by the Lord , as a Prevention from running after other Gods , and to remove Jealousie or Hard Thoughts out of the Minds one of another , as about the Case mentioned Exod. 22. 10 , 11. Upon the words , Neither by any other Oath , J. S. adds , Swear not at all , by Heaven , Earth , or any other of those Forms of Swearing by the Creature , that Christ forbad the use of , p. 17. whereas the words of the Apostle , who well knew the Mind of Christ , extend farther , as not only a forbidding a Swearing by Heaven or Earth , but also by ANY OTHER OATH . But mark , how presently after this Oath-Vindicator hath opposed Swearing by Heaven , Earth or the Creature , he contradicts himself in the same page where he saith , He that swears by Heaven , swears by him whose Throne it is ; He that swears by Earth , swears by him whose Foot-Stool it is ; because though God's Name be not expresly mentioned in such Forms of Oaths , yet it is implyed ; and therefore we are not to use such Forms in our common Speech any more then the Name of God himself , but in Reverence , and in extreme Necessity , p. 17. So that by this he allows of such a Form as Swearing by Heaven or Earth , that thereby they may Swear by God that dwells therein ; when before they are not at all to Swear by Heaven , Earth or any other of th●se Forms : See what an eminent Antagonist this is that undertakes to confute the Quakers , and yet contradicts himself in one and the same page ; As much as to say , We may not Swear by any of those Forms , as by Heaven or Earth , yet we must swear by such Forms of Oaths , as by Heaven or Earth , that we may Swear by him that made them and dwells therein , being his Throne and Footstool ; whereas it is confessed on all hands , that to Swear by Heaven or Earth , or any other Creature , is absolutely forbidden ; but Swearing by the Lord on a Book or otherwise , is the Matter in Controversie . But this man further in his own Contradiction saith ; As to the Forms of Swearing , whether God's Name be expresly mentioned in them , or only implyed by mentioning some of his Creatures with respect to him ; as when we call Heaven and Earth to bear witness to what we say , I do not find any Difference between them , either in Point of Lawfulness or Obligation , by the People of God or God himself in any Age , p. 19. He finds little to purpose then , but what is to his own Contradiction and Confusion , that one while confesses it unlawful to swear by Heaven , Earth , or any other Creature ; and another while finds no difference between Swearing by Heaven or Earth without mentioning the Name of God , and Swearing by God himself : And yet in his second page , his Definition of an Oath is nothing else but a calling God to Witness ; but here he hath found something else ; for an Oath in his 19th page is , calling Heaven and Earth to Witness . Oh , what a Labyrinth of Confusion is this man in ! It is true , that Christ reproved the Scribes & Pharisees Folly and Blindness in saying , Whosoever Sweareth by the Temple , it is nothing ; but whosoever shall Swear by the Gold of the Temple , he is a Debtor : See his Reproof upon them Mat. 23. 16 , &c. He also addeth ver . 22. He that sweareth by Heaven , sweareth by the Throne of God , and him that sitteth thereon . Now this man in allowing such Forms of Oaths , as a Swearing by Heaven , &c. because therein , it is both a Swearing by the Throne of God and him that sitteth thereon , he represents Christ as contradicting himself , who said , Swear not at all ; neither by Heaven , nor by Earth , &c. So that he forbids both Swearing in general , and using such Forms of Oaths as this man allows of , as a Swearing by the Throne of God , and by him that sitteth thereon . And we do not find that Christ allows the Scribes & Pharisees to use any such Form of Oaths , as Swearing by Heaven , and therein by God , any more then he allowed them to swear either by the Temple , or by the Gold of the Temple ; either by the Altar , or by the Gift that is upon it ; But rather reproves them with , Ye Fools and Blind ; Wo to you Scribes and Pharisees , Hypocrites , &c. He is so far from telling them , that to swear by Heaven , and so by God , was the most August Act of Divine Worship , as this man hath affirmed ; and yet saith , We are not to use such Forms but in extream Necessity ; which in his sense is to tell us , We are not to perform the Worship of God , or the most August Act thereof , but in extream Necessity : For he sayes , That Swearing implies the whole Worship of God , p. 13. And that he is not Glorified sufficiently in order to God's Accepting us either in Prayer , Thanksgiving or Attending upon his Word , unless we add Swearing by his Name : But who besides himself of the Church of England will believe such Doctrine ? By the same Reason that God interprets it , as an Affront offered to him when Perjury is committed in the Name of an Idol , this man's idolizing Swearing , as implying the whole Worship of God , and as being the most August Act of Divine Worship , God may justly interpret as an Affront offered to him , and a Depraving his Worship , who was and is truly loved and worshipped in the Spirit and in the Truth , before mens Oaths and Swearing were , and when they are ended . J. S. alledgeth 1 Cor. 15. 31. saying , I Protest by your Rejoycing , or more properly , I Swear ; for , saith he , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that Tongue is a Note of Swearing , and therefore makes the Apostle say , I Swear by your Rejoycing . To which we say , First , Let it be considered , whether their Rejoycing was God their Maker ; if not , as we know none holds , then whether this man hath not rendered Paul highly a Transgressor according to his own Opinion , in making him Swear by something that is not God , as also by the Rejoycing of others ; for their Rejoycing simply could but be an Effect of Grace , or of the Spirit . Secondly , Though the Adverb 〈◊〉 was sometimes used as a Note of Swearing among the Greeks , yet not always ; for it is simply an Affirmation , as coming of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , yea or truly , and is used when we are about to affirm somewhat ; see the Lexicons . And some read the Apostles words thus , Verily I dye daily for your Rejoycing , or our Rejoycing , which I have in Christ Jesus . And likewise J. S. represents the primitive Christians , who sufferd under the Pagan Persecutions the most exquisite Torments rather then to Swear by the Heathen Gods or the Genij of the Emperors ; yet by the Health * of the Emperors , Tertullian assureth us they did ; and as saying , We Christians Swear by the Health of the Emperor , which is more worth then all the Genij ; and by the Majesty of the Emperor : And also addeth , That the Form of the Military Oath , which the Christian Soldiers took in Constantine's time is thus laid down , By the Majesty of the Emperor , &c. And saith , That in such Forms of Swearing , though we name some Creatures , yet we Swear not ultimately by that Creature , pag. 20. First , However Tertullian represents these Martyrs as Swearing by the Health of the Emperor , and those afterwards by the Majesty of the Emperor ; The Truth of the first is a Matter in Question , especially since Swearing by a Creature hath been accounted unlawful both among Jews and Christians ; neither can such an Example ( if true ) be Warrant to any to take such a Form of Oath , as by the Health of a Man or Creature . Secondly , Neither is Swearing by the Health of the Emperor any more warrantable ; And did not both these Oaths savour of Heathenism ? which if any esteemed Christians , came under and took , it was more a Condescension for Fear then any Example to be followed . And his saying , That though we name some Creature , yet we swear not ultimately by that Creature ; yet however , it implies a Swearing in part by that Creature : And how well this agrees with his accounting a Lawful Oath but a calling God to witness , or a Swearing only by his Name , let the ingenuous Reader judge ; or with Tertullian his Sense of the said Swearing by the Health of the Emperor , viz. Per salutem Imperatoris , salvum esse volumus quod Deus voluit ; et hoc nobis pro magno juramento est : We acknowledge that Emperors are set over the Nations by the Will of God , and what is by the Will of God we will or wish that God may save ; and this to us is for or instead of a great Oath . And the same WE also will or desire , that is , the Well-fare of Caesar or the King , as acknowledging God's Power or Hand in setting him up ; For that Promotion comes not from the East , nor from the West , &c. but from the Lord , who putteth down one and setteth up another as he pleaseth . His accusing the Quakers for wresting those Passages aforesaid , we pass by among the rest of his Slanders . But his confessing , That no People upon the Earth were more scrupulously tender of taking solemn promissory Oaths then the Jews were at that time when our Saviour gave them this Prohibition , pag. 24. from Joeseph Antiq. l. 18. cap. 5. This makes for us ; for were not promissory Oaths as well as assertory allowed under the Law ? And if they were tender of taking promissory Oaths , they were more fitted for Christ's universal Prohibition of Oaths , as they were in some measure prepared for Christ by John's Baptism . He tells us , That the Jews could swallow such Camel-Oaths as by Heaven , &c. pag. 24. And is not he himself guilty of the same ? Could not he swallow such Camel-Oaths where he allows the use of such Forms , as Swearing by Heaven ; &c. because Gods Name is implyed ? And he that sweareth by Heaven , sweareth by him whose Throne it is , which he accounts lawful , pag. 17 , 19. But in pag. 24. To Swear by Heaven or Jerusalem are Camel-Oaths : What Credit can this man's Work against us be of ? He reckons that Christ's words may be applyed to their Stipulations by Oath in their private Contracts and mutual Trading ; whenas Christ's Prohibition , as explained by the Apostle James , is general ; But his applying it to an Oath in private Contracts , seems to grant , That Christ did forbid something of this kind that was used under the Law as well as in a publick manner : And there seems no Reason why Christ's words should be only thus applyed , unless men were more clear of Corruption and Fraud in private Contracts then in publick Testimonies ; or why Christ's general words [ For whatsoever is more then these cometh of Evil , or of the Evil One ] should extend only to the private and not to the publick , appears not to us : However , they whom the Evil One leads to Lye for any Self-Interest , what Credit is to be given to their Swearing ? And is it not evident , how little the Custom thereof sweyes with their Consciences by the Injury and Injustice many suffer , and the long Continuance of Contests , Law-Suits and Quarrels ? And a man would think , that there should be less need of Swearing in the Magistrates Presence then in private Covenants and Contracts ; because it is the Magistrates Wisdom to search and find out the Matter , and in his Power to punish the False Witness , and be a Terror to him ; but in Private only the Fear and Terror of God in men's Consciences can restrain them from Evil : However , what 's more evident , then that private Oaths and Covenants thereby between man and man were in use both before and under the Law ; So that this man's deeming Christ's Prohibition to extend to an Oath in private Contracts between man and man , and yet reckoning , that he forbids nothing but what was forbidden in the Law , we cannot but wonder at such wonderful and frequent Contradiction . J. S. saith . Applying Christ's Prohibition to solemn Oaths , either Promissory or Assertory , or to any but common-Discourse-Oaths , makes Christ a Transgressor of the Law. I Tremble at the Thought of this Consequence , which as naturally flows from the Quakers Hypothesis as Light from the Sun , pag. 25. Answ. He hath cause rather to Tremble because of his own Igrance and perverse Talk , thus to tye up Christ's Prohibition so fully explain'd , in Opposition to former Oaths and Swearing under the Law ( even those to the Lord , which surely were solemn and serious , Neh. 10. 29. ) as also to the Heathenish Swearing by Creatures , where he forbids his to swear at all ; adding , neither by Heaven , nor by the Earth , further explain'd by his Apostle James , Nor by any other Oath ; And yet Christ was so far from being a Transgressor of the Law it . self , or from causing an Obstruction to all Legal Proceeding , or proclaiming an Indemnity to Thieves , Murderers , Blasphemers , and all sorts of injurious Persons , or turning of Hell loose in the Kingdom of God ( as this man blasphemously words it ) That Christ came not to destroy the Law , but to fulfil it , in answering the End of it , as in this Particular ; where Swearing under the Law was a kind of Bond upon their Soul to speak or do that which was Right and Just in the Sight of God and Men , the greater Weight still was upon this then upon those words and Ceremonies of Swearing , which though Christ ended Swearing , and the Law thereof , with many other Circumstances , Ceremonies and Shadows ; yet he did not come either to stop Justice or to indulge Malefactors , he being the End of the Law for Righteousness ; and yet unto his own forbids some things the Law allowed , as that , An Eye for an Eye , and a Tooth for a Tooth ; though he was for overcoming of Evil with that which was Good. J. S. pag. 26. alledgeth St. Paul , as if he called Witnesses to swear concerning him , in saying , All which the High Priest and all the State of the Elders can bear me Witness : And in his Apology before Felix he challengeth his Accusers to prove the Matter of Fact they accused him with , Acts 24. Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me : And that in his Answer before Agrippa , he appeals to the Testimony of those that knew him from his Youth , Acts 26. 5. To which he adds , That if he had thought solemn swearing to be unlawful by this Prohibition of Christ , he would rather have undergone a Thousand Deaths then tempt so many to make Ship-wrack of their Immortal Souls , by calling them to that unlawful Act , pag. 27. Answ. This is a far fetcht Consequence , and as far from proving the thing intended : For , first , it is an unlikely thing Paul should call the High Priest and all the State of the Elders to Swear that he had been a Persecutor ; for then he must call many to be Swearers : And it was sufficiently known abroad among the Jews what manner of Person he had been . Secondly , Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me , was far enough from calling them to swear against him . Thirdly , His admitting a bearing him witness , or the Jews testifying concerning him , who knew his former manner of Life , Acts 26. 4 , 5. Did he therein call them to swear , in saying , If they would testifie ? The most Paul allowed of was a bearing Witness : If they would have sworn , it had been the Rulers and their own Act , who did not think it an Evil , and therefore not so great to them , as to those that believe it is so . J. S. undertakes further to expound James 's words , But above all things , my Brethren , Swear not : He saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is no-where else rendred in Scripture above , but before , and it should be so here , pag. 29. And then he thus paraphases , Let not an Oath lie uppermost upon your Heart , and come first of all , before all things out of your Mouth , pag. 30. This is a kind of an easie Meaning , but a plain Perversion of the Apostle's Testimony , which does not allow of any such Liberty at all for swearing as this doth , as if he only forbad Swearing in the beginning of our Discourses ; whe●as the Prohibition is plain and positive , Above all things Swear not , neither by Heaven , neither by the Earth , neither by any other Oath ; but this man will still have some other Oath : So whether must we believe him or the Apostle James , judge Reader . And though we do not look on Swearing as worse then Adultery or Man-slaughter , as is queried upon the words , Above all things Swear not ; yet doubtless the Apostle saw the Consequence of it might be bad , and sad enough , or else he would not so strictly have Forbidden it to the Twelve Tribes . J. S. makes these the Consequences of our sticking to the express Command of Christ and his Apostle , viz. That Paul's calling God to witness came from an Evil spirit . That our Saviour , as often as he said Amen , Amen , had those words put into his Mouth by the Evil One , pag. 31. To the first we say , No ; it was Christ , the Son of God , that spoak in Paul , whose Witness God is ; and the Son 's simply owning the Father for his Witness we do not look upon as making up a Formal Oath . To the second ; Neither can we own that our Saviour swore as often as he said Amen , or Verily , Verily , which was but a Note of Affirmation , and not of Swearing , and more then Yea , Yea , Nay , Nay . Again , He infers , That the Elect Angel which Christ sent from Heaven to communicate the Knowledge of future things to St. John was inspired by the Devil when he swore by him that liveth forever . Answ. No , that he was not ; for he spoak as God's Representative or Ambassadour , having a peculiar Commission , Power and Dispensation therein , which men may not imitate , which extended through the Law and the Prophets , in which the Swearing was ; and wherein the Angels were sent as God's Messengers and Representatives , Ministring Spirits and Servants to the whole Seed of Abraham , and Heirs of Salvation , to whom God's Promise was confirmed by an Oath : And this was a Vision represented in Figures . His telling us , That Christ prohibits the use of [ whatsoever is more ] to be intrinsecally Evil , pag. 31. Answ. Though Oaths when lawful , could not be accounted intrinsecally Evil ; yet there was an Evil that was an Occasion of Oaths , before permitted among the Jews , as that of Diffidence , Jealousie , Instability , Liableness to run after other Gods , and to do Injustice , Distrust one of another , &c. and as this man confesseth , common humane Infirmity , Ambiguity , pag. 1. and pag. 17. How plain is it , it was Weakness , Distrust and Fear in Abimel●ch , which was the cause of his requiring Abraham to Swear , that he would not deal falsly with him ; and a Covenant with Isaac , that he would do them no Hurt ? Gen. 21. 23. and chap. 26. 28. Therefore Christ's words are plain , Let your Communication be Yea , Yea , Nay , Nay ; for whatsoever is more then these ( that is , in Affirming and Denying ) cometh of Evil , or of the Evil One. And many Things , Ceremonies , Circumstances and Shadows under the Law , that in themselves were not intrinsecally evil , did wax old , and grew out of use , and vanished , as the old Covenant it self did , being accounted Weak , Insufficient and of a Decaying Nature , when a higher and more eminent Dispensation was brought in , as that of the New Covenant , which therefore to oppose ( with any of those inferiour things before lawful ) cometh now of the Evil One. And J. S. his Consequence and Doctrine appears both Gross , Impious and Antichristian , where he saith ; That if the Christian-Churches do not perform Homage to the God of Truth by Swearing as well as Blessing in his Name , if their Tongues do not as well Swear as their Knees bow to him , then the Christian-People are not the People of the Messiah ; and the Messiah is not yet come , but st●ll to be expected ; Then the Blessed Jesus is not the Christ of whom the Prophet speaketh ; but as the Jews at his Arraignment and their Posterity Blasphemously stile him , a Deceiver and a Counterfeit , pag. 34. Answ. Oh Monstrous and Blasphemous Stuff ! First , Thus insolently to attempt the engaging of the Christian Church to Swearing as well as Blessing ; yea , to Cursing , and daring God to his Face , challenging the Divine Vengeance to do its worst ( as before he hath defined an Oath ) as well as Blessing in his Name , bowing the Knee , or performing Worship to him ▪ What people of a Christian-Spirit can believe this Doctrine ? Second●y , His rendering Swearing such an eminent Proof of Demonstration of the Messiah's Coming , against the Jews Opinion of him , and as reasonable as to tell us , that the effectual Means to convince the Jews that Jesus is the Christ , is to swear that he is so , instead of the Apostle's plain Confession of him , that Jesus is the Christ , who preferred Confession instead of Swearing . Again , His scornful Talk of the Reign of the Quakers Christ , and saying , That the Quakers Gloss defrauds God of his due Homag , robs the King of Saints of one of the Prime Jewels of his Crown , presents the Ever-blessed Jesus in the Form of an Impostor ▪ and False Christ , leads directly to the Gulf of Gross Infidelity and Denyal of Christ , pag. 35. This is as Wicked and Blasphemous as his Consequence before , and shews this man to be a most gross Idolater in thus unscripturally applauding of Swearing , as the Prime Jewel of the King of Saints his Crown ; whereas the King of Saints and his Servant have plainly forbidden Swearing , which is not to make the Gospel contradict the Holy Prophets , as to their spiritual Intent and End ( which was to confess to God and to Christ ) as is falsly inferred . And as falsly he represents the Prophets , as saying , Christ should teach his Disciples to Swear , The Lord liveth : but where the Prophets so say we are all to seek ; but not where they testifie against Swearing , see Jer. 23. 10. Hosea 4. 15. chap. 2. 3. Zach. 5. ● . Zeph. 1. 5. Eccles. 9. 2. But if Swearing were that Divine Homage , or included the whole Worship of God that is to be among Christians , why is Christ so silent in it and the Apostles , as not expresly to command it , but on the contrary , expresly forbid it ? Or if Swearing were the most August Act of Divine Worship , surely the Apostle James instead of saying , Above all things my Brethren swear not , should have said , Above all things my Brethren swear ye . There was a time when the Iews ●eared an Oath ; but through the Custom of Swearing they run into False Swearing : And though they said , The Lord liveth , yet surely they swore falsly ; And because of Oaths the Land mourned , and this Land mourneth . And therefore even in the Prophets time Oaths & Swearing were testified against ; as , Though thou Israel play the Harlot , yet let not Iudah sin ; Come not ye unto Gi●gal , neither go ye up to B●thaven , not swear The Lord liveth , Hos. 4. 15. If it be said , that this forbidding to Swear was because of their Wickedness and Prophanation ; we say , by the same Reason we may now testifie against Swearing , and for Conscience sake cannot uphold the Custom thereof , nor submit to the Imposition thereof , though this man is not ashamed for all this Abuse and Prophanation , to urge and applaud it as the highest Act of Divine Worship , and the Condition of God's receiving people ; which , if it could be granted , as it is not , it only signifies thus much , That only the Righteous , and such as are converted to God , must swear , and that upon a very sacred Account , to God himself . Now judge , serious Reader , what the Tenor of this man's Work amounts to ; it is that Righteous Men must obliege themselves to God and adore him by Swearing : What is this to swearing to men in litigious Courts ? And what is this to the Imposition of Oaths we desired the Parliament to remove ? Under the Law Oaths were used in two respects , namely , First , To prevent and end Strife among men ( and these both in private and pub●ick ) 2dly , ●o God himself , or between man and man , And man and God ; or Swearing to man , and Vowing to God : See Gen. 24. 9. & 31. 53. & 21. 23. & 26. 28. & 47. 31. Num. 30. 23. 1 Sam. 20. 3. & chap. 14. 26. 1 King. 8. 31. Neh. 10. 29. chap. 5. 12. Now this man's Work renders Swearing by God in general to be the highest Act of Divine Worship , which only they that are converted to God can perform in his Sense ; and such none of the Wicked or Unconverted are capable to perform . Judge whether this Distinction be made in the usual Practice of Swearing ; or , Hath this man taken so much Pains with the Magistrates as to instruct and warn them , not to impose Oaths upon the Unconverted , nor especially upon those Excommunicated by the Bishops ? For it needs must be granted on all hands , That they that are Wicked and Unchristian , prophane the Name of the Lord if they swear by him ; and they must needs partake of their Sin who force them to it : And as for the Converted and Righteous , they are of Credit ; and there is no need to force them to Swear , being under a greater Bond and Covenant with God then that of Oaths imposed by man , Christ being to them their Covenant and Bond , the End of Oaths under the Law , and the Substance of God's Oath to the Heirs of Promise . So we leave this man's Doctrine for all serious Readers to judge of concerning Oaths and Swearing . As what an OATH is , and concerning SWEARING , these are his Affirmations . 1. It is an Invocation of God's Name . 2. Nothing else but a calling God to Witness to the Truth of what we say . 3. A calling God for a Record against their Soul. 4. An Execration or Denouncing a Curse . 5. An Evidence of Conversion to the Lord. 6. Divine Service and Homage . 7. An eminent Act of Saving Confession . 8. One part of Divine Worship . 9. A Sign , Witness and Argument of Egypt's Conversion to the Lord of Hosts . 10. The Language of Canaan , that pure Language , which God promised to restore to all Nations at the Coming of Christ. 11. That Pure and Vndefiled Religion , which was at first revealed to man in Parad se. 12. Such a Condition , as upon the fulfilling thereof God will number men among his Disciples . 13. That Confession of God , without which they do not sufficiently glorifie him , either by Prayer , Thanksgiving , Attendance on the Word and Sacraments . 14. A Daring God to his Face , challenging the Divine Vengeance to do its worst in case he swear falsly . 15. That God esteems this Swearing as the Highest & most August Act of Divine Worship that the Creature can possibly exhibit to him . 16. That which comprehends the whole Condition of the Gospel , all the Wayes of God's People confessing to him . 17. That Swearing by God implies the whole Worship of God. 18. That Men ought to learn diligently to Swear by the Name of God , to learn this as the Way of God's People . 19. To Swear Religiously by his Name ( yet but in extream Necessity . ) 20. That in the Forms of Oaths we are to Swear by Heaven , Earth , &c. and call them to Witness lawfully , because he that swears by Heaven swears by him whose Throne it is . 21. We must subscribe to this , that in such Forms of Swearing we name some Creature . 22. That to Swear by Heaven , by Jerusalem , &c. are Camel-Oaths . 23. That strong Asseveration by Oath , as a solemn Invocation of God's Name , is the Celebration of the most august Act of Divine Worship and Adoration that can possibly be tendered to Divine Majesty . 24. That Christian-Churches ought to perform Worship to God by Swearing as well as Blessing ; their Tongues must swear as well as their Knees bow . 25. That Swearing is one of the Church's strongest Bull-Works , one of those Demonstrations of the Spirit whereby the Champions of the Christian-Faith have irrefragably proved that Jesus is the Prophets Christ ; viz. Because since the calling of us Gentiles , we have worshipped the True God in Swearing by his Name . 26. That this Swearing is one of the Prime Jewels of the King of Saints his Crown . 27. That the Prophets say , That he ( Christ ) should teach his Disciples to learn to Swear , The Lord liveth . 28. That it is , and alwayes was the will of God , that Oaths should be reserved and sequesterd to the Service of God. Thus having summ'd up this man's Fruitless Work for Swearing , to make it conspicuous , we proceed to his Accusations and Aspersions in his Third Section . Sect. III. The Anthorities and Testimonies Rescued . THat some of the most eminent primitive Christians , Martyrs and Fathers were of the same Mind with us in their Conscientiously refusing to swear , not only by the Heathen Gods , but also more generally in Obedience to and Pursuance of the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostle James , before urged against swearing at all ; and that we have alledged Examples pertinent for Tender Conscience , not only against swearing in particular Cases , but swearing in general ; and have neither bewrayed the Want of Ingenuity or Honesty therein , as most falsly and malitiously our Antagonist hath asperst us : But that he himself hath bewrayed his own Want of both Ingenuity and Honesty will appear , though those Examples that we have alledged in this Case are but a very few to those we could alledge . 1. About Polycarpus , that eminent Martyr , who was said to be the Disciple of St. Iohn the Evangelist , and who suffered under Verus the Emperor , Ann. 170. Eus. l. 4. c. 14 , 15. E●e . Chro. 567. To our saying that he was demanded to swear by the Emperor 's Good Fortune , or Caesar 's Prosperity , he absolutely denyed , and said , He was a Christian ; J. S. answers , They interpret [ GOOD FORTUNE ] by Prosperity , or as if this Martyr could not swear by the Emperor 's Good Fortune , but by his Prosperity ; But for that he hath left us to seek for a Proof . He adds , Eusebius in the place quoted hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which the Translation renders , Jurare per Caesaris genium , Swear by the Genius , the good Daemon or good Fortune of Caesar , which Form of Oath Polycarpus and the whole Army of Martyrs refused to take ; because that which the Gentiles stil●d Genij the Christians know to be Devils . A Daughty Argument ; Polycarpus would not swear by an Heathenish Goddess , or their Gods who were Devils , therefore Christians must not Swear by the True God. Reply , This he calls a Daughty Argument is none of ours , but his own Consequence unjustly deduced against us ; for ours is , That Polycarpus refused to swear as the Heathen required , because he was a Christian , for Conrcience sake ; but J. S. thinks this not enough to prove that he refused to swear by the True God : And as he hath not proved this , so we do not think that he hath proved or can prove that Polycarpus either could swear , or profered to swear by the true God ; for that was not required of him : Therefore it was enough for him to refuse all the swearing that they required , and not to tell them he could not swear by the True God ; for that was not the Matter he was called upon It is true , that Polycarpus and those Christian-Martyrs , refused to Swear by the Good Fortune of Caesar , which is as we cited before . 2. But why makes this man such a Difference between the Good Fortune of Caesar , or Caesar's Prosperity ? He tells us , p. 20. That Tertullian assureth us , That the primitive Christians , who suffered under the Pagan Persecutions , who would not swear by the Genij of the Emperors , have sworn by the Health of the Emperors , Tertull. Apolog. c. 32. Whatever Tertullian saith of those Christians , it doth not invalidate our particular Instance of Polycarpus , who was a more eminent Martyr , and clear in his Testimony then many others ; For what is more plain in Ecclesiastical History , then that some Christian-Martyrs exceeded many of the more weak Christians , both in their Courage , Valour , Patience , Nobility and Clearness in bearing their Testimony ? And we did not say , that all the former Christians , Martyrs and Fathers since the Apostles dayes refused to swear , as we do , but many did ; and therefore said , we have of many more given some Instances and Testimonies of such Primitive Christian-Martyrs and Fathers , &c. the Case , p. 9. And also it s confessed , that the Christians prayed for the Emperor's Health , and wished Caesar's Prosperity , which to them was instead of a great Oath , Tertull. ibid. And though J. S. would insinuate , That Polycarpus did not refuse to Swear upon the Account of Christ's Inhibition , but the Impiety of the Form of the Oath ; saying , That the true Criterion was this , That the Gentiles would have had the Martyrs swear by the Idols , but the Martyrs would not swear but by the God of Truth , pag. 38. See the Man's Contradiction to himself , and to what he saith Tertullian assures us , viz. That without the least scruple of Conscience they have sworn by the Health of the Emperor . Oh strange ! and yet would not swear but by the God of Truth : Was there no Difference between the Health of a Wicked Persecuting Emperor , and the God of Truth ? If Polycarpus had then profered , according to J. S. his Account of those Martyrs , viz. By the Eternal God I wish or pray for the Health of the Emperor ; or else , if this would not have pleased his Persecutors , when they urged him to swear by the Fortune of Caesar , he had then answered , Well , I will swear by the Prosperity or Health of the Emperor , probably he might have come off at a more easie rate then he did ; as many Temporizers have evaded Suffering in our dayes . But to proceed with Polycarpus ; The Proconsul urged him divers times to swear by the Fortune of Caesar : To whom Polycarpus answered , If thou requirest this Vain-Glory , that I protest the Fortune of Caesar , as thou sayest , seigning thou knowest me not who I am , hear freely , I am a Christian ; and if thou desirest to know the Doctrine of Christianity , appoint the day and thou shalt hear it . The Proconsul commanded the Beadle thrice in the midst of the Theatre : Polycarpus confesseth himself a Christian : The Multitude both of Jews and Gentiles inhabiting Smyrna cryed with one Voice , That Polycarpus must be Burnt quick ; upon which the Multitude forth-with carried Logs , and Wood , and Sticks out of their Shops and Bootks , but especially the Iews served promptly ( after their wonted manner ) for that purpose , &c. See the Account at large , Euseb. l. 4. chap. 15. So it appears that both the out-ragious Gentiles , who were for swearing by their Heathen Gods , and those hypocritical Iews , who were commanded to swear only by the True God , both joyned together to murder this Eminent and Valiant Christian-Martyr , who would have taught the Proconsul the Christian Doctrine , which contains an express Prohibition of Swearing ; and whose Refusing to Swear by the Good Fortune of Caesar appears to be ( as he was a Christian , from Christ's Prohibition ) with respect to him , as well as upon the Account of the Impiety of the Form of the Oath it self , though those furious Heathens and envious Iews were not fit to hear all his Reason on that Account . Consider that Irenaeus reporteth ( Lib. 3. against Heres . ) That Polycarpus was not only instructed by the Apostles , and conversant with many who saw Christ ; but also of the Apostles ordained Bishop of Smyrna — who lived long , and was very old , and at length finished this Life with most Glorious and most renowned Martyrdom , when he had continually taught that which he learned of the Apostles : And that he converted many of the Hereticks unto the Church of God , preaching the one and only Truth received of the Apostles . To which we add , It is not then probable that he should teach the Iews Doctrine , for swearing by the Lord either to God or men ; much less that he taught men to swear by the Health of Caesar : But rather that he taught them as Christ and his Servant Iames did , Not to swear at all , by Heaven . Earth , or any other Oath ; seeing he continually taught that which he had learnt of the Apostles . 2. It is not probable he should so plainly contradict the Apostle Iames his Doctrine , My Brethren , Swear not , neither by Heaven , nor by Earth , nor by any other Oath ; as to say , My Brethren , Ye may either Swear by God that you wish Caesar's Prosperity ; or otherwise , You may Swear by the Health of Caesar the Emperor , though not by his Good Fortune . For if he had thus taught , as this man implies of the primitive Christians , he had taught quite contrary to the said Apostle . And it s also said by Irenaeus , There is extant an Epistle of Polycarpus unto the Philippians , very profitable for such as are careful of their Salvation , where they may know the true Character of Faith and Rule of Doctrine . And 't is said , Polycarpus maketh mention hereof , ( viz. of Ignatius , the Martyr his Epistle to the Church at Smyrna ) in the Epistle under his Name unto the Philippians , writing thus , I bereech you all that you be Obedient , and exercise Patience , which you have throughly seen , not only in blessed Ignatius , Rufus and Zosimus , but in divers of your selves , in divers of the Apostles , and in Paul , with the rest of the Apostles , &c. Now it is not likely that Polycarpus , exhorting them so to Obedience as to follow the Apostle's Doctrine and Example , should yet hold it lawful to Swear either by the Health of the Emperor , or by God , both contrary to the Law and the Gospel , and to the express Doctrine and earnest Admonition of the Apostle James , Jam 5. 12. It is also said , ( Euseb. lib. 5. chap. 23. ) That Polycarpus being at Rome in the time of Ani●etus , they both varyed among themselves , yet were they soon reconciled , neither was A●ic●tus able to perswade Polycarpus that he should not retain that which he had alwayes observed with John the Disciple of the Lord , and the rest of the Apostles , with whom he had been conversant . It is not probable then , that he should be perswaded not to retain Christ and his Apostles Doctrine , Swear not at all , neither by Heaven , &c. nor by any other Oath , to teach the Christians that they might Swear by the Health of the Emperor , &c. J. S's accusing the Quakers with comparing the Oath which the Proconsul tendered to Polycarpus , to that Form of Oath which is in use in this Kingdom , and therewith aspersing the King and both Houses of Parliament with the Crime of Heathenish Idolatry . These are both very Malicious & False , for no such Comparison was intended by us : There was no mention of that Form of Oath which is in use in this Kingdom , but of that which was required of Polycarpus by the Fortune of Caesar ( which was then their National Oath ) which he could not swear for Conscience sake , because he was a Christian ; no more then we now can for Conscience sake , because we are Christians , and Christ and his Apostle have commanded us expresly not to Swear at all . So that the Comparison lies between his being oblieged in Conscience as a Christian , not to take that Oath ; and our being oblieged in Conscience to Christ , and in Obedience to his Doctrine , not to Swear at all , or take these Oaths , because of Christ's Prohibition , there being yet a Difference in the Objects sworn by . 2ly , That Ponticus and Blandina , who were Martyrs , and cruelly tormented to Death by the Heathens in France , in the Reign of Antoninus Verus , Ann. 179. refused to Swear , being often urged , is plain , Euseb. l. 5. cap. 1. And that they contemning the Heathen Idols refused to Swear by them , is not denyed : But that they were bound in Conscience to this Refusal , only because of the Impiety of the Form of the Oath , and not also upon the Account of Christ's Prohibition , is deny'd by us , and not proved by J. S. For 't is probable enough it was on the Account of both , they suffering both as Christians who respected Christ and his Apostles Doctrine , and so near the Apostles dayes . Besides , it was most necessary for the Martyrs in those dayes openly to contemn and testifie against the Heathen Idols , in refusing to Swear by them , being not called to Swear by the True God ; without declaring , that Basilides , who of a Persecutor was made a Martyr , who was a Souldier , and of Authority in the Roman Host , being required to give an Oath in a Matter concerning his Fellow-Souldiers , deny'd to do it , plainly affirming , He was a Christian , and therefore suffered Death about Ann. Christi 205. For this see Euseb. lib. 6. chap. 4. and Acts & Mon. 1 Vol. p. 71. The Matter here , so far as 't is cited J. S. cannot deny , and yet saith , I must make bold to set down the Book which they have omitted , Fox Vol. 1. fol. 71. which is not true ; the Book is set down before his Eyes , but not all J. Fox's words cited where he addeth , Their Oath then was wont to be by the Idols and the Emperor ; this is Jo. Fox's Addition : Whereas Eusebius hath it more positive , thus , Basilides being required of his Fellow-Souldiers to Swear for some Occasion or other , affirmed plainly , It was not Lawful for him to Swear ; for he said , He was a Christian ; and he would in very deed Protest or witness the same , see Euseb. l. 6. c. 4. The Truth of it is , We cannot see how to reconcile J. S's Work , or to make it consistent with it self , or in History , That these primitive Christians and Martyrs could without Scruple of Conscience Swear by the Health or Prosperity of the Emperor , and yet refuse to Swear by his Good Fortune , or that they could take such a Military Oath , even in Constantine's time , as by the Majesty of the Emperor , and yet refuse to Swear but by the God of Truth , as he confesseth . His Charge of wickedly Falsifying Authorities we return back upon him , as a Slander ; and we doubt not to make it further obvious , that he is the man guilty . 4ly , Our Example out of the Plow-man's Complaint against the Pope's Breaking Christ's Commandment , in making a Law to compel men to Swear ; This J. S. confesseth comes home to the Point , if the Allegation be faithful ; but if this Plow-man be Chaucer Jack upland , as by his stile he seems to be , I never read , saith he , that he was canonized a Martyr , or dubbed a Father of the Church , though he be Dad of English Poets : Nor do I think his Romance will pass among Rational Men for Good Authority . Repl. Here this Opposer savours more of one affected to Popery , then with the Plow-man's Complaint against the Pope . As for his guessing who penn'd that Complaint , it is of little value , while he sleights and scoffs at the thing it self , more like one Popishly affected then a real Protestant ; However , whether the Plow-man's Complaint was penn'd by any Martyr or Father of the Church or no , it was owned by the Sufferers , as their Sense in those days , and recorded among the Martyrs Testimonies for Christ , & against the Pope : And however he sleights or jeers Chaucer , hath he not been owned as a witty Wickliffian , and a Witness in his Method against the usurping Clergy in his time ? 5ly . He sleightly shuffles off the Instances of John Wickliff , William Swinderby , and the poor Christians in those dayes , their Testimonies against Swearing , and against the Pope and Prelates compelling Men to Swear , &c. as if they were only applicable to Oaths in Contracts , or by any Creature , or idly , &c. But he hath nothing against our Citations , whereas what we have cited of William Swinderby extends farther then this man's Limitation ; As the 14th Article against him was , that he should say , That no man ought to Swear for any thing , but simply without an Oath to Affirm or Deny ; and if he Swears he sins , Act. Mon. 1 vol. fol. 614. It s true , he answered to this . That men should not Swear by any Creature by the Law of God ; but he further declares his Mind and Sense in his Appeal from the Bishop's Sentence to King Richard 2. and his Council , in these words , Whereas Christ's Law forbids Swearing , the Pope's Law justifies Swearing , and compels men thereto , Act. & Mon. 1 vol. fol 618. [ note that in the former he speaks with reference to God's Law , in the latter to Christ's Law ] which no doubt was the Opinion of many more , as appears by the Plow-man's Complaint , which otherwise had not so been preserved and propagated as it was . And it appears from that Doctrine received among the poor Christians in this Nation , that neither the Pope , nor the Prelate , neither any other Ordinary can compel any man to Swear by any Creature of God , or by the Bible-Book , Act. Mon. 1 vol. fol 687. which Opinion among others their Persecutors sought to make them renounce and abjure . By this it appears they opposed the Popes compelling men to swear upon the Bible Book , wherein they also swear by the Lord. By his saying , Those Martyrs that held that all Oaths that be made for any Contract or Bargain were Vnlawful . However , it was matter of Conscience to them that so held , &c. It appears then , that they held something unlawful that was used of old time , both before and under the Law , contrary to J. S. p. 15. For both before and under the Law there were private Oaths and Swearing in some Contracts and Covenants between man and man , as well as publick before Judges ; And if the Martyrs Testimony against the Pope's Compulsion reacht only private Oaths , we ask , Where did ever the Pope's Law compel Men to Swear in their private Bargains between man and man ? and why are men put upon Swearing in their Account for their Tyths , more then in their private Contracts about them ? J. S. would seem cordially to concur with William Thorpe's Testimony , as being only against Swearing by the Book , by any Creature , &c. Whereas when William Thorpe was demanded to kneel down , and touch the holy Gospel-Book , and kiss it , saying , So help me God , and this holy Doom ; he argues largely against it , concluding thus , Therefore to Swear upon a Book is to Swear by Creatures , and this Swearing is ever unlawful ; adding further , This Sentence witnesses Chrysostom plainly , blaming them greatly that bring forth a Book to Swear upon ; charging Clarks , that in no wise they constrain any Body to Swear , whether they think a man to Swear True or False , Act. Mon. 1 vol. fol. 701. See how plain it is that William Thorpe's words were against Swearing upon a Book , by God , ( or as help me God ) and against forceing any Body to Swear True or False ; so that the said William Thorpe did not only condemn the Papists common Swearing by our Lady and other Saints , but also their Swearing upon a Book in this Form , So help me God and this holy Doom , see Act. Mon. fol. 701 , 702. Now what Chrysostom , whom he alledgeth , witnesseth in this Case against Swearing , is very plain and positive from the Greek Copy unquestioned , Tom. 1. Hom. 17. p. 217. ( passing that in his other , Tom. Homil. 12. if questioned ) where he saith , What therefore if some require an Oath , and impose a Necessity of Swearing ; let the Fear of God be more powerful then all Necessity : For if thou wilt alwayes object such Occasions , thou wilt keep nothing of those things that are commanded — What is more then Yea and Nay ? To Swear , not to Forswear , seeing none need to be taught that that is of Evil , and not so much superfluous as contrary ; for that is superfluous which is added needlesly , which certainly is an Oath ; if Evil , how then was it commanded in the Law ? — That is now Adultery , which was then allowed — Weakness required then — for unless those things had gone before , the other had not so easily been received — Their Vertue is now shown — Swearing was permitted heretofore by the Law , lest men should worship Idols , or swear by Idols ; it brought them to solid Meat . What Evil then is it to swear ? much without doubt — but now after so many Arguments of Power , but not then — We must study to do above the old Commandment — Unless your Righteousness exceed , &c. Some come so far short of it , that they refuse not only to Swear , but even do Forswear — If to Swear be Evil , Perjury is great Evil. With much more to the same purpose , his Assertions and Reasons being general , extending to all swearing ; and goes on to exhort and deter men from sleighting the Command of Christ. Read the place at large . Concerning Elizabeth Young , who was brought to Examination in the Marian dayes before the Catholick Inquisitors of Heretical Pravity , as they stiled themselves ; her refusing to Swear J. S. confines to these Reasons , First , Because she would not betray her Christian-Friends . 2dly , Because of the Needlesness to Swear whether she was a Man or a Woman , she affirming her self to be a Woman , that being determinable without an Oath by Search : Whereas her Reason is more general then either of these two hinted ; For when Dr. Martin said to her , Thou shalt be Racked Inch-meal , thou Traitorly Whore and Heretick ; but thou shalt Swear before a Judge before thou go . To this Eliz. Young answered , Sr. I understand not what an Oath is , and therefore I will take no such Oath upon me . Dr. Martin said , She refuseth to Swear upon the four Evangelists before a Judge ; for I my self and Mr. Hussey have had her before us four times , but we cannot bring her to Swear . Then said the Bishop , Why wilt thou not Swear before a Judge , & c ? Eliz. My Lord , I will not Swear that this Hand is mine . No , said the Bishop , and why ? Eliz. Christ saith , that whatsoever is more th●n Yea , Yea , and Nay , Nay , it cometh of Evil see the Relation more at large where it is quoted . Observe that the Reason of her refusing to swear was more general then J. S. relates : It was not only because she would not betray her Friends , or because of the Unnecessariness of the Oath ; But because , first , She scrupled an Oath it self , saying , I understand not what an Oath is . 2dly , Because of Christ's saying , Whatsoever is more then Yea , Yea , and Nay , Nay , it cometh of Evil. And 3dly , It is plain she refused to Swear upon the four Evangelists and before a Judge to a thing that was True. Therefore J. S. hath greatly abused this sincere Woman and Martyr , in Restraining her Testimony against Swearing from its general Tendence . To our Example of the Waldenses professing it to be no way Lawful for a Christian to Swear , whose Defence Bishop Vsher undertakes in his Book De Successione Eccl. c. 5. and of the Christian-Protestants in the Valley of Pi●dmount , who were cruelly Tortured to Death by the Papists about Anno 1655. One Article alledged against them was , That they believed it not lawful to Swear any thing , be it True or False . To these J. S. answers thus , viz. I joyn these because these of Pi●dmount are the Relicks of the old Waldenses , against whom this was wont to be charged by the Papists , that they were wholy against all Swearing ; in which point the Arch-Bishop of Armaugh undertakes to vindicate them ; but how ? not by maintaining the Opinion , but by proving it to be a Calumny cast upon them by their Adversaries . How true this Account is , whether or no the Bishop of Armaugh did prove it a Calumny cast upon the Waldenses , that they profest it to be no way Lawful for a Christian to Swear ; will appear by and by . In Answer to J. S's Allegation , where he addeth , That Frier Ni● . Eymericus reckons this to be the third Heresie of the Waldenses , That to Swear , whether it be before a Judge , or extrajudicially in any Case , is Vnlawful , and a mortal Sin : And their fourth Heresie , That to Swear Falsly about confessing Truth , or revealing their Complices , is not Vnlawful or a Sin , but Lawful and Sacred . This , saith he , Bishop Vsher in the place forequoted , p. 162. on purpose to evince the slanderous Pens of Roman Scribes from the Incoherence of their Calumnies , and from the extream Vnlikelihood that they who h●ld it Lawful in some Cases to Forswear , should hold it Vnlawful in any Case to Swear . Observe here , Reader , he vindicates the Waldenses , as not being of the Opinion , that it was no way Lawful for a Christian to Swear , from the Papists Accusation , that they held it lawful to Forswear . So that this man still ( most dishonestly ) leaves that honourable People the Waldenses , under that Blemish of Forswearing ; whereas if he had dealt h●nestly by them and Bishop Vsher , he should otherwise have cleared them from holding it lawful to forswear , for that they hold it unlawful in any Case to Swear ; as may be plainly seen by Bishop Vshers own Account , De Success . c. 6. pag. 161 , 162. where he saith , The old German Author , who wrote of the Doctrine and Behaviours of the Waldenses , saith , That the Occasion of this Error ( viz. Refusing to Swear ) was , the frequent Use of Swearing for light Causes , and because Men fall into Perjuries ; and addeth a quaint similitude , saying , That the Hereticks who never swear , are like the Devil , whom we never read to have Sworn . But ( saith Vsher ) They who have learned of Christ , let your Speech be Yea , Yea , Nay , Nay ; for whatsoever is more is of that Evil One , Mat. 5. 37. will judge the Papists ( with whom the frequent Custom of Swearing for light Causes is grown in use ) much liker this Evil Devil then the Waldenses , who ( as is evident from the Relation of the Popish Inquisitor ) used only to say , Yea , Yea , Nay , Nay ; avoiding a Lye and an Oath . And in the following page he sayes , But that these ( viz. the Waldenses ) are as far from Lyes and Perjuries , as those false Friers are from Truth and Modesty , I bring those two Inquisitors cited in the said Article for Witnesses ; The one whereof writes thus of the Leonists or Waldenses , They are aware of Detraction , and of Scurrilousness , and of a Lye , and of an Oath : The other thus , In Words they are Cautious ; Lyes , Oaths , and all things that are Naturally Dishonest they avoid . To which may be added also a third , namely , that German which published a Writing of the Doctrine and Behaviours of the Waldenses ; They teach to avoid a Lye , Detraction and an Oath . And so Vsher argues thus , Because their Adversaries confess they avoid Oaths , therefore to charge them with Forswearing is an Absurdity without Truth or Modesty . So that denying to swear is thus far commended , as that it clears them from the possibility of Forswearing and Customary-Swearing ; wherein ( he sayes ) the Papist , their Adversaries , are more like the Devil : And so is ours in Lying ; for he perverts it thus in Vsher's Name . From their Forswearing he argues their Swearing ; whereas Vsher defends them from Forswearing by their not Swearing at all . Now whereas J. S. hath so plainly perverted Bishop Vsher , and abused the poor Waldenses , and greatly vilified and upbraided us , saying , Where are your Eyes ? Where is your Conscience , who belye so many , & c ? We may ask this , J. S. Where are thy Eyes ? Where is thy Conscience , who hast not only most grosly belyed and abused us , but shamefully mis-represented the Waldenses , and perverted Bishop Vsher ? And where must be our Wit ( or any Bodies else ) if we believe J. S. upon his bare word , perverting such an eminent Author , so plain and obvious , which we desire the ingenuous Reader seriously to look into and compare with both our Account and his . We appeal to the ●ruth in all . Whereas for Example 12. J. S. only sets down Erasmus , Plato , Maeander , Antonius , Hesiod , Theognis ; and then answers , or rather quib●es , This ranking Erasmus with Heathen smells rank of the Jesuits spirit : Whereas he himself hath thus ranked Erasmus with the Heathen , rather then we ; For we have given a particular Account of Erasmus's Testimony , only added the other afterwards , not at all either to undervalue Erasmus , or to point him hanging between Heaven and Hell , as he saith , it is the Jesuits Device : But to let that pass . However J. S. seems to have no mean Esteem for Erasmus ; but whether he be real therein or not , will further appear , where he confidently saith of him , His Judgment was far enough from the Opinion of the Quakers ; for where he speaks thus of the Vnlawfulness of Swearing , the Vselesness of Oaths , he speaks of Swearing in our ordinary Communication , as is manifest from that Clause [ in your Bargains ] ye need no Oath , ye need no Execration . Observe here , Reader , he restrains Erasmus here to oppose Swearing only in ordinary Communication , and the like , and as before , far enough from our Opinion ; and then addeth another Untruth , That the Quaker-Apologist either ignorantly or maliciously omits that Clause [ in your Bargains ] both which are false ; for it was neither ignorantly nor maliciously , but because we had enough beside in general Assertions and Reasons , we cited against all manner of Oaths , besides this Particular he mentions . See further Erasmus in his Paraphrase on Mat. 5. 34. Having cited the ●ext he saith , Among the Jews only Perjury is punishable — but the Law of the Gospel , that ye should be more sure from Perjury , doth utterly condemn all manner of Oaths ; that is not lawful to Swear , neither by God , nor by those things which seem to the common sort to be of less Religion . Here both the Assertions and the Reasons are general , with several other Clauses , some more particular , and others general , before he comes to the particular Instance [ in your Bargains ] ye need no Oath , ye need no Execration or Cursing ; which Particular cannot make void his general Position and Reason , both before and after ; to which we refer the Reader to view at large . And likewise on his Paraphrase on Jam. 5. 12. he is as general and positive in asserting and arguing the Case against Swearing , thus , But especially , my Brethren , Swear not , lest by little and little you accustom your selves to Forswear . Among the Jews and Heathens for Fidelity's sake there is an Oath put between ; But among Christians , which ought neither to distrust any man , neither be in will to deceive ; it is a vain thing : Whosoever is accustomed to swear , is cousin german to the Peril of Forswearing ; Be ye afraid not only to swear by God in humane Affairs and in light Matters , but also abstain from all kind of Swearing , that you Swear neither by Heaven , neither by Earth , nor any other thing that the common people esteem holy and religious . Whosoever dare be bold to Lye without Swearing , he dare do the same also when he Sweareth , if he list . He that is a good man will believe a man without Swearing ; and that nought is will not trust a man if he Swear : But among you that are furnished with Gospel-like Plaineness , there is neither place of Distrusting , nor to imagine Deceit ; but let your plain Communication be regarded for no less true and stedfast then any manner of Oath of the Jews or Pagans , how holy soever it be , &c. To our Instance of Augustin on Psal. 88. & de mendacio , J. S. answers ; The very words here alledged evince , that St. Augustine speaks of common Swearing ; and that he must be beside his Text , if from the Old Testament he infer the Unlawfulness of all kinds of Swearing . Reply . Augustine's words are plain and general , that we cited ; however he kept to the New Testament Text and to himself in other places we shall not at present examine ( if he did not , it should have been retracted by him ) but recite Augustine's words more fairly then J. S. hath done . It is well that God hath forbidden man to Swear , lest by Custom of Swearing ( inasmuch as we are apt to mistake ) we commit Perjury : There is none but God can safely swear , because there 's no other but may be deceived . I say unto you , Swear not at all , lest by Swearing ye come to a Facility of Swearing , from a Facility to a Custom , and from a Custom ye fall into Perjury . Observe here , Reader , that both his Positions and Reasons are general , and his Inference deduced from Christ and his Apostles own words against Swearing , as Erasmus's are . And we now must further cite Augustine in the Case ; see Augustin Serm. 3. Ad competentes : Let them not only abstain from Perjury , but also from an Oath ; Because he doth not Lye who saith , A man Swearing much shall not depart from Iniquity , and the Plague shall not depart from his House , Eccles. 23. Augustin . de serm . dom . in monte , on the place in Mat. 5. thus ; The Righteousness of the Pharisees is , not to Forswear ; This he confirmeth who forbiddeth to Swear , which belongeth to the Righteousness of the Kingdom of Heaven : For , as he who doth not speak , cannot speak a Lye , so he cannot Forswear who doth not Swear ( so he goes on to excuse Paul for saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. and calling God to Witness , &c. ) saying , That an Oath is not of good things , or among good things ; but of evil things , or to be reckoned among evil things . And sayes , Let a man refrain to use it , but upon Necessity , for the Infirmity of others , which is Evil ; from which we pray , that we should daily be delivered . Augustin . on Jam. 5. de verbis Apostol . serm . 30. Perhaps it is only for God to Swear , who cannot Forswear . And so he goes on to shew how hard it is for men to avoid Perjury . Augustin . de mendacio Retract . lib. 1. c. ult . He says , is obscure and intricate . To our Instance of the Albines in France , and Mich. Sadler , an eminent Martyr in Germany , that they held it was unlawful to Swear ; and that one Article alledg'd against him was , that he had said [ That men should not Swear to , or before the Magistrate . ] To these J. S. answers , Your Authors say only , that That Charge was alledged against them ; but not , that it was proved . Repl. Neither do we read that the Authors say , That that Charge was denyed by them ; and then , what need was there of proving it before it was denyed ? To our alledging Jerome , Chrysostome , Justine Martyr against Swearing , our Adversary answers , viz. When you name the Texts of these three Fathers we shall examine whether you faithfully report them . We Reply , Let him examine then the Report and Citation already given of Chrysostome : And now of the other Two ( we hope , more faithfully then he hath done of B. Usher and divers others . ) See Jerome's Commentary on Mat. 5. on the place , Swear not ; thus , This was granted as to little ones by the Law , that as they did offer Sacrifices to God , lest they should offer them to Idols ; So they were suffered to swear by God , not that they did this rightly , but that it was better so to give it to God then to Devils : But the Truth of the Gospel doth not receive an Oath , seeing every faithful Speech ( or every Speech of a faithful Man or Believer ) is for ( or instead of ) an oath . Justin-Martyr . Apolog. for Christians , pag. 63. printed at Paris , 1615. summing up the Doctrines of Christ to the Heathen Emperor , sayes , He commanded us , not to Swear at all , but alwayes to speak Truth ; Swear not at all , but let your Yea be Yea , and Nay , Nay ; for whatsoever is more comes of Evil. As for Walter Brute in his Testimony against Swearing , is as plain , positive and rational as any of them ; see Act. Mon. 1 vol. fol. 653. J. S. saith , As to Walter Brute , it is true , he affirmed what is alledged , but with Protestation , That he would retract that Opinion if he were convict of the Error of it ; and accordingly did , upon Conference with the Bishop of Hereford , submit himself to the Determination of the Church ▪ as appear● from your own Author , Fox v. 1. p. 653. Reply , This is just the manner of the Papists undervaluing the Martyrs Testimonies , by endeavouring to fasten Retractations and Recantations upon them ; and because this man has thus darkly and unfairly represented Walter Brute as so doubtful in that Particular Opinion against Oaths , and so ready to retract it , be pleased , Reader , to hear Walter Brute's own words in the page before cited , & how far he submitted in saying , I Walter Brute submit my self principally to the Evangely of Jesus Christ , and to the Determination of holy Kirk , and to the Sentence and Determination of the four Doctors , viz. Augustine , Ambrose , Jerome and Gregory . Judge , we pray , what Retractation is this : And should not our Opposer have shewed us , where he retracted that Opinion aforesaid against Oaths , if he could ? or where ever he acknowledg'd himself convinc'd that this was an Error ? His Submission was principally to the Evangely ( or Gospel ) of Jesus Christ , which J. S. leaves out , as he doth [ holy ] before [ Church ] we hope he will not charge W. Brute , that he design'd a Submission contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ , being that principal thing without which the other could not determine . But we do not find that W. Brute retracted any more in the words above , then he did sometime before , when he told the Bishop thus , If any man will shew me that I Err in my Writing or Sayings by the Authority of sacred Scripture , or by Authority of Reason grounded thereon , I will humbly and glady receive his Determination ; But as for the bare words of any Teacher , Christ only excepted , I will not simply believe , except he be able to establish them by the Truth of Experience , or of the Scripture . Now consider , Reader , that this was but a Submission conditionally proposed , any more then the other ; and that some time after this he positively wrote against Oaths , for which we refer thee to the Quotations : And this conditional Submission seems rather to argue his Belief , that they could not convince him of Error herein , no more then the Bishop of Hereford did , when he could not confute Walter Brute's Exhibits on his own Defence . And has it not been a common thing with many established in the Truth , to propose such conditional Submissions to be convinced , and receive Information by or according to the Holy Scriptures ? For our parts , we do not find this man's Representation of Walt●r Brute to have so much as a face of Truth in it , or that he was either doubtful of , or did recant of that Opinion charged against him by the publick Notary , viz. That he held that it is not lawful for Christians for any Cause in any Case , to swear by the Creator , neither by the Creature ; But rather that he was positive in this amongst his last Testimonies against the Pope and Church of Rome ; see Act. Mon. vol. ● . fol. 653. As for J. S. his Conclusion , pag. 43. it savours both of Scorn , and Envy , and a Persecuting Spirit , that would instigate the King and Parliament to afflict us , as if we were not Conscientious in what we profess , but we knowing the contrary in our Consciences , as being therein oblieged to Christ and his Command , we sleight our Enemies Flouts and Revilings . To his saying , The Order of Middleburgh is no ways applicable to the Quakers Case , who have refus'd to pay Church duties . The man seems herein wilfully to shut his Eyes ; for the said Order is very plain for Liberty of Conscience , and Freedom from the Imposition of Oaths , unto those Inhabitants who refus'd the taking the accustom●d Oaths , and who instead thereof , proffered as the Quakers do That their Yea should stand instead of an Oath , and the Transgressors thereof be punished as perjured Persons ; which with the Advice of the Governour and Council of Zealand was accordingly ordained and confirmed , That this Peoples Yea aforesaid should stand instead of an Oath before the Magistrates of the said City [ A Noble President to our Purpose ] Obj. But the Quakers have refused to pay Church-Duties , and thereby Rob the Royal Exchequer , which is partly supplyed out of Tenths and First Fruits . To the first , of refusing to pay Church-Duties ; it seems he means Tythes to the Priests : And must we therefore not be allowed the Liberty of our Consciences , but be exposed to Ruin , Loss of Estates and Livelihoods , because we cannot pay Tenths to the Priests ? Oh hard Man and unjust Judge ! that respects more the Pope's Yoak and Antichristian Imposition , then the Lives or Liberties of Protestant Subjects and True Christians : And his implying an Indulgence for us , if we did not refuse to pay the Priests Tythe , is like as to tell us , We may have the Liberty of our Consciences if we will be Conformable : Oh generous Indulgence to such as need it not ! Could our Consciences serve us to Conform , Pay Tythes , Uphold Priests , &c. what needed we make Address for Liberty ? His charge of Robbing the Royal Exchequer is envious and false , shewing a Persecuting Spirit : The Priests ●yth-Barns are not the Royal Exchequer ; we cannot help to fill them : They demand Tyths of us , not only of our Lands , but of the Fruits and Encrease of our Labours and Industry ( a manifest Extortion ) and their Demand of them is as Ministers of Christ , and on a Religious Account , as claiming a Divine Right , in neither of which are we sati●fied , nor can we own either ; and we have reason to think , that the King is more Merciful to them about the First Fruits , then they are to us , and doth not so severely prosecute or strictly look after them as they do to us , having caused many deeply to suffer both in Persons and Estates , and made grievous Havock by taking away and spoiling mens Goods , driving away their Cows , Oxen , &c. many times more then the value of the Tvthe , besides the sweeping away House-hold Goods , and exposing many poor industrious Families to Ruin ; as also the many long & tedious Imprisonments , which they have caused many to suffer in till Death . But when have we refused to pay our Civil-Duties or Taxes , being in a Capacity , that is , out of Bonds and Sufferings , which have disabled many ? And if the King and Great Council of the Nation were pleased to repeal those old Laws inforcing the Payment of Tythes , and to convert them into some necessary civil Use , as for the Poor , or some National Service and Benefit , it would appear whether we should not pay our parts , and whether the Royal Exchequer would not be conveniently supplyed without the Tenths from the Priests . As for our Desire of being exempted from taking an Oath , because our Consciences will not allow us to swear , to this our Adversary adds , viz. When you actually do Swear in as solemn & august a Form , as its possible for the Tongue of man to express , even then when you say , You dare not Swear ; God , who is the Searcher of Hearts , knows , that it is with a Holy Respect to the Reputation of Christianity , the Evangelical Dispensation and to Christ's express Prohibition , &c. This Person has given us various Definitions of an Oath ; of which he reckons that to say , God who is the Searcher of Hearts knows , is a most solemn & august Form of Swearing : But surely he egregiously misseth in this ; for at this rate of defining a solemn form of an Oath , we shall scarce know how to mention the Name of God in any serious or solemn Way , either in Prayer , Thanksgiving , Appeal to him either as witness for us , or singly as desiring that the Truth may be discovered in any case ; but this must all be lookt upon as a most solemn and august Form of Swearing , if the Name of God be but mention'd , when no Swearing is intended , nor any Imprecation or Ceremony of an Oath used : But how manifestly doth this contradict his granting , there may be a confessing the true God in Prayer , in Thanksgiving , &c. without Swearing , in his counting such Confession of God not sufficient or acceptable , except they add Swearing by his Name ; so that however the Name of God may be solemnly confessed without Swearing : And if on some weighty Occasion a Christian be moved to say , God knows I Lye not , God is my Witness : How can this be a solemn Oath or Swearing , when he neither intends it nor useth the Ceremony of an Oath , nor any Imprecation or Curse ? For there is a plain Difference between a man 's earnestly appealing to God by way of Imprecation , as the great Judge of Heaven and Earth , Avenger of Injury and Falshood ; And tenderly committing or resigning his Cause unto God , that he may discover the Truth ( being Witness thereof ) to others , when it is or may be doubted or question'd : As in a Case of moment , wherein I know & am sure the Truth is on my side , while others may doubt or question me , if I appeal , commit or resign my Cause to God ▪ ( as knowing him to be my Witness therein ) it is singly with a Desire , that he may enlighten their Understandings , & bring them to know the Truth of my Cause ; and for that End I both trust him , and leave it with him ; and not at all with any Ceremony of an Oath , nor any Imprecation , Invocating of God for Witness ( or Judge ) against my Soul ; for what need of that when I know I am clear ? What need I be under any such Bond , as the Fear of a Curse to bind me to speak the Truth , whenas I am both ascertained of and engaged in the Truth , and my Christian-Reputation and Soul's Peace is naturally concerned in it ? And on the other hand , if any should wilfully or knowingly utter false Things without binding their Souls with an Oath or conditional Curse , that will not hinder the Curse , Judgment or Reward of false Swearers from coming upon them , nor secure the Guilty . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65844-e430 * See Gen. 24. 9. and 47. 29 , 31. But our Opposer hath brought us no Scripture for Kissing and Laying the Hand on a Book . * Iuramentum aliquod mente juratur . Num. 5. 24. 1 Sam. 14. 28. * Jurare aras . Hor. Gen. 24. 2. & 47. 29. Chrysost. Tom. 1. Hom. 17. on Mat. 5. Oecumen . on Jam. 5. pag. 136. Hilary comment . on Mat. Canon 4. on Mat. 5. 34. See the various Readings in Walton and the Cr●ticks . * All of them did not so Swear . See Gen. 24. 9. & 31. 53. & 21. 23. & 26. 28. & 47. 31. Num. 30. 2 , 3. 1 Sam. 20. 3 , 17. 1 King. 8. 31. & 14. 26. Euseb. l. 4. c. 14. Eus. l. 4. c. 14. Euseb. l. 3. c. 32. Is there any Probability or Appearance of Likelihood , that if the Denyal of Swearing had not been a received Doctrine from the Primitive Christians , but the Martyrs for the first Three Hundred Years had sworn all along ? That the Famous Fathers in the succeeding Ages of the Greek Church ( which was the less degenerated ) as , Chry●ostu●m , Basil , Hilary , &c. should bring it in as a reviv'd Doctrine against that which had been practised several Ages ; without mention of the Maintainers or Abettors of the contr●ry ? And Origen . Iustin Martyr , &c. even in those Times of Persecution , testified against Swearing , which Testimony was continued among the VValdenses , who , as their Adversaries say , continu'd from the primitive times . And Vsserius de successione , cap 10. §. 2. ex Botono Parmensi , ci eth , Humilia●i in nullo errabant , nisi quia condemnabant jurantes . Of these he saye ; their Original were in Millan ; They were rejected of Pope Innocent 3. and Pope Lucius . Chap. 8. §. 22. Anno 1052. Agennenses , Manichae●s , Radul . Ardens ita insectatur . Tales sunt hodie haeret●●i Manichai , quia s●●a haeresi patriam Agennensem ma●ula●erunt , qui mentiuntur se vitem Apostolorum tenere : Dicentes , se non mentiri , nec omnino jurare . K. Rich. 2. Anno 1391. They were about Ann. 1200. Morl. Hist. pag. 217 , 218. Erasm. para . on Jam. 5. 12. August . on Psal. 88. August . De mendacio . An. 1176. Act. Mon. I●V . f. 623. Fol. 653. Fol. 625. 
A65854	----	The Christianity of the people commonly called Quakers vindicated from antichristian opposition sincerely tendered in behalf of the aforesaid people and their ancient friends by some of them. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1690 Approx. 77 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 17 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65854 Wing W1912 ESTC R27067 09638558 ocm 09638558 43873 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65854) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 43873) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1346:7) The Christianity of the people commonly called Quakers vindicated from antichristian opposition sincerely tendered in behalf of the aforesaid people and their ancient friends by some of them. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 29 p. Printed for Thomas Northcott, London : 1690. "I. In a serious examination of Doctor Ford's Preservative against Quakerism in a large fallacious scheme tendered by S.F. D.D., as he stiles himself, II. In a brief answer to Henry Osland's manuscript against the said people, III. In a brief consideration of an epistle directed to friends and brethren at their next general meeting in London, signed N.N. but no name to it." Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Rachel Losh Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Rachel Losh Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE CHRISTIANITY OF THE PEOPLE Commonly Called QUAKERS , Vindicated from Antichristian Opposition . I. In a serious Examination of Doctor Ford's Preservative against Quakerism ; in a large fallacious Scheme Tendered by S.F. D.D. as he stiles himself . II. In a brief Answer to Henry Osland's Manuscript against the said People . III. In a brief Consideration of an Epistle directed to Friends and Brethren at their next General Meeting in London . — Signed N.N. but no Name to it . Sincerely Tendered in behalf of the aforesaid People and their Ancient Friends , by some of them . Psal. 35.20 . They devise Deceitful Matters against them that are Quiet in the Land. LONDON , Printed for Thomas Northcott , in George Yard , in Lombard street , 1690. THE CHRISTIANITY OF THE PEOPLE Commonly called QUAKERS , Vindicated from Antichristian Opposition . In a serious Examination of Doctor Ford's Preservative against Quakerism ; in a large Fallacious Scheme . THE Industrious ( though fruitless ) Attempts of this Profound Doctor ( as he would be esteemed ) to unchristian or rather Antichristian the People called Quakers , especially those of their ancient Friends , is in this wise Methodized ; in three Columns on one large Sheet , small Print : The first contains a Recital of a Paper , Entituled , The Christianity of the People commonly called Quakers , asserted against the unjust charge of their being no Christians ; writ by some of the said People , by which the said Doctor S.F. saith , They seem to be of a New Edition compared with the Vnchristianity , or rather Antichristianity of their ancient Friends , as he unjustly charges them in his Title set over his two other Columns , and yet in contradiction , falsly stiles our said Paper , a Partial and Fallacious Scheme of their Doctrins . Thus his Design appears malicious and uncharitable to endeavour not only to unchristian , but to antichristianize an Innocent People that truly fear God , and to render them contradictory to their Christianity , sincerely asserted by them . And , whereas contrary to the Title over his first Column , which is , The Christianity of the People called Quakers ; over his second and third , he has put the Title of the Vnchristianity , or rather Antichristianity of the Quakers ancient Friends . Hereby its apparent , ●●rst , That all those Doctrins are by him rendered Vnchristian & Antichristian , which he has placed under the same Title , and charg'd the Quakers ancient Friends withal in his two last Columns . Secondly , we may therefore rationally take him as holding the contrary , and need give the less Remarks on the Particular● , where his Unchristian Doctrins and Errors appear most obvious . Thirdly , most part of his charges are but what some of our old Adversaries and Persecutors have enviously and blindly Objected , ( which long since are answered , and the Truth fully clear'd in our Friends Books ) whereby he seems to have been one of them , and since turn'd about from his Presbytery to the now Church of England , for his own Interest ; yet retains his old Enmity . And why is he now in 's old Age so disturbed and angry against the Quakers ? What 's the matter now ? Is he afraid to lose some of his Benefactors , ( seeing he directs his Scheme to those of his own Neighbourhood , and all others who are newly made or endangered to be made Quakers ? ) But he takes not the Course to oblige them that mean honestly by his abusing an innocent People in Print . Fourthly , Many Things are very unfairly and partially Cited by him , leaving out the most material which are for Explanation of the Matters charged , which we do not find ; but our Friends Books themselves ( which he quotes ) sufficiently and plentifully clear . Others he has taken upon Trust against us out of our Adversaries Books , without any impartial Enquiry what we could say for our selves , or representing our Answers thereto . But selfish Temporizers are commonly the most envious , and apt to pervert Truth . Now let 's examine his severe charge of Vnchristianity and Antichristianity against the Quakers ancient Friends , in the several Instances given by him the said S.F. D.D. as he stiles himself , that we may see what contrary Divinity he is Doctor of . Charge 1. Is against our deceased Friend Ed. Burroughs , viz. That God is a Spirit , not distinct nor far from living Creatures ; for in him they live , move , and have their Beings . Observation . The Doctor 's deeming this Antichristian , is to tell us , he believes the contrary , i. e. That God is not a Spirit , That he is far from living Creatures , Distinct ( or divided ) from them , &c. This being in his first Charge , may be thought to be his Chief ; but his Divinity herein is expresly contrary to the Doctrin of our Lord Jesus Christ , who Testified , that God is a Spirit , Joh. 4.24 . and please to take the words [ not distinct ] to intend not divided , or separate as E.B. intended , and has explain'd , That God is not far from his living Creatures ; and we see no Reason to render this Doctrin of God's Omnipresence , either Antichristian or Unchristian , but him to be both , who so renders it : For , doth not God fill Heaven and Earth with his Presence , and uphold all Things by the Word of his Power ? Jer. 23.24 . Heb. 1.3 . In whose hand is the Soul of every living Thing , and Breath of all Mankind , Job 12.10 . And in him we live , move , and have our being , Acts 17.28 . If this Doctor had either known God , or his Power and Omnipresence truly , or seriously consulted holy Scripture , he durst not have rendred such Doctrin either Antichristian or Unchristian . Charge ibid. Against E.B. That the nature and glory of the Elect differs not from the nature and glory of the Creator : The Elect are one with him , enjoying his glory , &c. Obs. These being also put under the Title Vnchristianity , or rather Antichristianity , we may take this Doctor as holding the contrary , i. e. That the nature and glory of the Elect , differs from the nature and glory of the Creator ; That the Elect are not one with him in his nature , that they enjoy not his Glory ; contrary to Christ's own Testimony , John 17.21 , 22 , 23. That they all may be one , as thou Father art in me , and I in thee ; that they also may be one in us , &c. And the Glory which thou gavest me , I have given them , that they may be one , as we are one ; I in them , and thou in me , that they may be made perfect in one . And see , 2 Pet. 1.4 . That by these you might be Partakers of the Divine Nature . Tho' we be Creatures still , yet by the work of God's Grace , and making good to us his precious Promises , we are in some measure Partakers of his Divine Nature , being Partakers of Christ , Heb. 3.14 . and so far united unto , and in Union with him , and is not this divine Nature , the nature of the Creator ? Charge 2. Against our ancient Friends , G.F. and R. Hubberthorn . Of the Soul coming from God , and returning to God again , as of his Being , &c. And E. B's saying ( when dying ) Now my Soul and Spirit is Centered into its own being with God. Obs. Here the Doctor has unfairly quoted G.F. upon trust , leaving out what 's most material , both Distinction and Explanation about the Soul or Spirit of man , both with Relation to its Creator , and to the Creature man ; being spoken of in both respects by our Friends . 1. Where G.F. insists on the Words , God breathed into Man the Breath of Life , and he became a living Soul. It was to this Breath of Life , ( as immediately coming from God ) that our Friends Words related , as his Question plainly shews , i. e. Was not that of God , and of his Being , which came out from God ? meaning that divine Breath , or Spirit of Life , by which Man became a Living Soul , and from whence came not only Man 's natural Breath and Life , but also his spiritual ; and this does distinguish between the divine Being , and the Creature Man , and not confound their Beings . And for the Soul or Spirit of sanctified Man to center with God , this is not to render it the Being of God , or God himself . We know none ( professing the true God and Christ ) so grosly absurd as to say , That Man made himself , or was his own Maker , Saviour , or Redeemer . 2. Our Friend speaks plainly in the same Book quoted against him ; Gr. Myst. Fol. 90 , 91 , 100. That the Soul should be subject to the Power of God ; that Christ is the Bishop of the Soul , who brings it up into God , the Soul being in Death , in Transgression , Man's Spirit not sanctified , &c. This could not intend the Being of God , for that never sinned , though there be something thereof in the Soul , even in that reasonable Soul or Spirit of Man , which God ( by his divine Word , Breath , or Spirit ) formed in Man , Zech. 12.1 . and so made Man a living Soul. On Jonathan Clapham's Authority and Report , R. Hubberthorn is charg'd by this credulous Dr. That he expresly said , The Soul was the Being of God. Quoting R.H. his Truth and Innocency , and Clapham's Discovery Epist. to the Reader for proof . How envious and unjust is it thus to condemn Persons upon report of their Enemies , who regard not Truth , but revenge and perversness , as in this ? We find not in all R.H. his Answer to Clapham , any such Expressions , as that the Soul of Man was the Being of God , but rather the contrary , yet that 't is immortal , That the first Man Adam was made a Living Soul ; that the immortal Life in the Soul came from the same Being , ( and so says Clapham , that the Soul came indeed from God and is Immortal , ) and that God breathed into Man the Breath of Life , and he became a Living Soul ; that the Soul is to be watched over ; that Peoples Souls are to be redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb , raised up by the Power of God , out of Death . R.H. his Collect. p. 30.38 . How can the Charge before stand with these Passages . i. e. That the Soul of Man should be the Being of God , and yet to be watched over by his Ministers ; redeemed by Christ , and raised up by his Power ? That divine Sense which he hath given us , would never admit us so to confound the Being of the Creature , with the Being of the Creator , as to render them both one and the same Being . For though the Soul of Man be a Spiritual Being , it is not God nor Christ , but is saved by him . This Adversary by his Instance in his second Charge , which he takes upon Trust , from our old Adversary Jonathan Clapham his saying , that R.H. in his Book against Sherlock , p. 30. brings Phil. 2.5 , 6. To justifie the Quakers Equality to God. We look upon this Charge to proceed from meer Malice , and as a foul Abuse of R.H. his words ; for the same Mind that was in Christ , to be in us , Phil. 2.5 , 6. was in respect to his Humility and Obedience . There 's no mention of the Quakers Equality to God in R.H. his Answer : But of Christ being Equal with God , on Phil. 2.5 . See his Collect. p. 34 Charge 3. Against W.P. and R.H. about the Term Trinity , That God is the Holy One , &c. That few are so blind as either to affirm or believe that there are three Subsistences , and but one Divine Being , &c. Obs. Pray where is the Unchristianity , or Antichristianity here ? If he believes the contrary , Viz. That God is not the Holy One , that there are three Subsistences ( or Bottoms ) in the one Divine Being . This appears not to us either consistent with the Holy Scriptures , or good Sense , See Deut 6.4 . Mark 12.29 , 32. 1 Joh. 5.7 . Joh. 10.30 . Besides , he has dealt very unfairly in this Charge , taking no notice either of the Doctrin opposed by our Friend● , which was that of Three distin●t and separate Persons in the God-head , ( which we do not find their own Articles of Religion will warrant , ) nor yet of their Arguments to the contrary . See our Friend's Book , Divinity of Christ ; yet the Dr. grants they , i. e. the Quakers , seem to own the Thing , but not the term Trinity ( he might have added ) of separate Persons in the Deity , because the Father ▪ Son , and Holy Ghost are One , and Inseparable ; and then his Sentence or Charge against us , is , because we are not satisfied with those unscriptural Terms of Trinity , of Three separate Persons or Subsistences in the God-head , and reverently profess the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit in the words which the same Spirit hath taught us , in the Holy Scriptures . Thus uncharitable and envious some of the Priests have appeared against us to condemn us as no Christians , because we could not in point of our Christian Conscience , come under their imposing unscriptural Terms upon us , whilst they cannot deny , but grant that we own the Thing ( or Doctrin ) intended . Charge 4 , 5 , 6 , and 7. Against some of our Friends for manifesting their Dislike of the Terms , Human Personal Christ , and that he took to himself an Human Soul , and some Adversaries terming Christ himself an Human Body , and some Friends asserting the Oneness of Christ's Body , 1 Cor. 12.20 . and his Heavenly manhood , and Christ as but one in all his Saints . Obs. Here again the Dr. has condemned our Friends as Unchristian about Unscriptural Words and Terms imposed upon us , whilst we deny not the Thing it self ; namely , the real Manhood of Jesus Christ , as he is compleat Man ; the Heavenly Man , yet his Soul Divine , and Body Heavenly , Spiritual and Glorious . And cannot the Dr. ( with all his Learning ) find out an Oneness between Christ in Heaven and his Members on Earth ? and between his Members or Church on Earth , and his glorious Body in Heaven , so as to admit his Body in the fulness of it in Heaven and Earth to be but One ? are not his Members in spiritual Union with him ? 1 Cor. 12.12 . And why the Man should either Antichristian or Unchristian any of our Friends , because they think the Term Human too low to give to the Soul of the Messiah , whilst he cannot prove it so termed in Holy Scripture , we are yet to seek ? He still imposes without Proof or Demonstration , as if his own bare ipse dixit must bear us all down . But note by the way , that our Friends questioning the Term human , as applied to Christ , or to the Soul of Christ ; is still in honour and respect to Christ , they taking the Term as originally relating to the Earth of which Man was made ▪ and not opposing it simply as it relates to Mankind ; nor questioning Christ's being perfect Man in Soul , Spirit and Body , as well as God over all , in respect to his Divine Power and Oneness with the Father ; but being the Heavenly Man the Lord from Heaven , the Question is , if Human be not too low a Term for his Soul. Charge 8 , and 9. Against our Friends , E.B.W.P. and F.H. 1 st . For asking , Where dost thou Read in all the Scriptures , that God doth require satisfaction for the Sins of the Elect ? or laid any thing to their Charge ? 2 ly . For cautioning against saying , That God should condemn his innocent Son , that he having satisfied for our Sins , we might be justified by the Imputation of his Righteousness . 3 ly . And against F.H. for saying , You are only talking of Christ at a Distance , and his Righteousness as far from you as betwixt Earth and Heaven , and here is your Justification . — God●s Righteousness in you justifies . Obs. Now seeing this our Adversary has put all these Passages under the Title of Unchristianity and Antichristianity , charged on the Quakers Ancient Friends ; May we not justly place the contrary upon him , that his Christianity is , 1. That God requires satisfaction for the Sins of the Elect , and charge them , 2. That he did condemn his Innocent Son to satisfie Divine Justice for our Sins , and to justifie us by the Imputation of his Righteousness , whilst Christ is at a Distance , and his Righteousness as far from us , as betwixt Earth and Heaven , and not in us . Now first observe , His thus excluding Christ Jesus and his Righteousness and Justification out of his People , and so leaving People in their Sins all their days , is expresly contrary to Holy Scripture Testimony , contrary to the Righteousness of Faith , and Testimony thereof ; say not in thine heart who shall ascend into Heaven ( that is , to bring Christ from above , &c. Rom. 10.6 , 7 , 8. ) as well as to the Nature , Intent and Tendence of Justification , Redemption , Pardon and Acceptance with God in Christ Jesus . See Rom. 8.33 . Who shall lay any thing to the Charge of God's Elect ? It 's God that justifieth , and 1 Cor. 6.11 . Such were some of you , but ye are washed , but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus , and by the Spirit of our God , and Heb. 13.20 , 21. Where the Apostle both prayed for their perfection , and that God would work in them that which was well pleasing in his sight , through Jesus Christ our Lord. See also these Scriptures , Isa. 26.12 . and ch . 60.21 . Psal. 32.1 , 2. Rom. 4.6 . and ch . 8.1 . Titus 2.14 . and ch . 3.3 , 4 , 5 , 6. 2 Cor. 13.5 . Rom. 2.13 . Heb. 3.14 . 2 ly . To place Man's Justification in a sinful unjust State , upon such a kind of satisfaction supposed to Divine Justice , that is , Vindictive ( as they call it ) as by God's condemning his Innocent Son to undergo his Wrath and Punishment , due to the Sin of the World in the Sinner's stead , as many of our Opposers hold , and this seems to be of the same Notion ; This is to justifie the Wicked , and condemn the Just , which to do is an abomination to the Lord , Prov. 17.15 . And thus to render the most dear and innocent Son of God , the Subject of his Father's Wrath , and of the Execution of his vindictive Justice , to indemnifie Offenders continuing in their Sins . How can this consist either with Divine Justice it self , or with that most glorious Union , Divine and Superlative Love that is and ever was between them ? And though we confess Christ's satisfaction in the Sense , that God was always well pleased , and satisfied in his dear Son , in all he wrought and suffered for Mankind for Man's Redemption ; yet we find not in Scripture , that ever he required such severe and rigid Satisfaction and Payment of our Debts from his Son in our stead , or for the Sins of Men , and thereby to acquit , pardon and justifie the Guilty ; This Notion or Term Satisfaction , and the Understanding of it is confest ( by Dr. Owen ) to depend upon some Notion of Law , in his Declaration and Vindication , and directly opposed and argued against by Dr. Stillingfleet , now Bishop of Worcester , in his Discourse of the Sufferings of Christ. Page 269 , 270 , 271 , 272 , 273 , 275. For he saith , It is easie to observe , That Socinus his Arguments are levell'd against an Opinion , which few who have considered those things do maintain , and none need to think themselves obliged to do it , which is , that Christ pay'd a proper and rigid Satisfaction for the Sins of Men , considered under the Notion of Debts , and that he pay'd the very same which we ought to have done . Charge . S.F. In his 9 th . Charge again , takes upon Trust Clapham's Quotation of a Book Entitled , Saul's Errand to Damascus . P. 8.9 . In these words , viz. Christ in the flesh , with all that he did and suffered therein , was but a Figure , and nothing but an Example . Obs. We deny these words as a plain Abuse , Miscitation and Perversion . For in the said Book of Saul's Errand , Christ is confest as both the Substance of all Figures , Types and Shadows , and Example of his People . The words are , Christ in the Flesh without them is their Example , or Figure , which is both one , ( as they intended who so writ ) for his being their Example , 1 Pet. 2.21 . and 4.1 . and 1.15 . and John 13.15 . are quoted . See also Luke 2.31 . He was called a Sign : Now hence to say , he was But a Sign ; this were a gross Perversion . Christ was our Example , Now hence to say , he was nothing else , is an Abuse and alters the Sense , as our Adversary has here done upon Trust , condemning our Friends as Unchristian , &c. upon a false Report , which is besides all Justice , Morality , and judicial Proceedings . But , whether the Word Figure may be in any tollerable sense attributed to Christ , is the Question . We find in some sense , it is with other Words of like Nature , and some meaner Characters are given to him , as not only Example , Figure , Form of a Servant , Similitude , Habit , Image , &c. but he was said to be made Sin and a Curse for us , though he knew no Sin , nor ever sinned , 2 Cor. 5.21 . Gal. 3.13 . 1 Pet. 2.22 . His Humiliation , Lowliness , and suffering for us , did not hinder him of his most excellent Glory and Dignity . But to the Point in Hand ; in Heb. 1.3 . The Son of God is said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , In some rendered , Figura Substantiae , the Figure of his Substance . And Phil. 2.6 , 7. He took on him the Form of a Servant , where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Form or Figure ; and he was made LIKE unto Men , and was found in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Shape or Figure of a Man. See the difference in Crit. Sacr. and the Translation of the Church of England . In Phil. 2.7 . Of Christ its expresly said , and found in Figure as a Man , as Dr. Fulk against the Papists has it . He was also said to be made of a Woman , made under the Law , to redeem them under it , Gal. 4.4 . He was Circumcised , presented to the Lord with an Oblation , Luke 2.21 , 24. He eat of the Passover , &c. and thus came under the Law to fulfill it in these Things which were figurative and shadowy , yet was the Substance and End of them . Charges 10 , and 11. Against an Actual keeping of the Law of God , so as to avoid all Sin , though he grants , such a Perfection as imports Sincerity , Integrity , and Constancy in our utmost endeavours perfectly to keep God's Law entirely , to avoid all Sin , &c. which Perfection he confesses to be requisite to Salvation . Yet contrariwise , chargeth one of our Friends for saying , He had proved by manifest Scriptures , that some were perfect in this Life , even without Sin ; and that our Sanctification is Christ himself , 1 Cor. 1.30 . And another Friend he charges for saying , In your Vnbelief , you judge that none can live without sinning . Obs. Now take the Doctor as believing the contrary , thus , viz. Though 't is our Duty sincerely to use our utmost endeavours perfectly to keep God's Law , and entirely to avoid all Sin ; yet none were ever so perfect in this Life without Sin ; and that our Sanctification is not Christ , and that 't is our belief to judge , that none can live without sinning . Thus faithless is this great Doctor ; how contrary to the Faith of Christ and true Christians is his belief herein ? And such endeavours for such a Perfection as never attain it , but still fall short , are not in the true Faith , nor so sincere as they should be ; for Christ said , Whatsoever ye ask in my Name , believe that ye shall receive it , and the same shall be given you , Mark 11.24 . Luke 11.9 , 10 , 11 , 13. John 14.13 , 14. and 16 23. Mat. 7.7 . And by Faith in Christ comes the Heart to be purified , Acts 15.9 . And Christ is of God , made unto us Wisdom , Righteousness , Sanctification , and Redemption , 1 Cor. 1.30 . And blessed are the undefiled in the way , &c. Psal. 119.1 , 2 , 3. And seeing the Son of God is manifest for this very purpose , to destroy the Works of the Devil , 1 John 3. Why then should Sin which is the Devil's Work , be thus Preach'd up or contended for , by any who profess Faith in Christ Jesus ? Their's must needs be a faithless Preaching , who when they have told People , 't is their Duty to use their utmost endeavours entirely to avoid all Sin , yet contrarywise tell them , That none can live without sining : With what Faith or Sincerity , can this Man , or any of his Brethren , engage Childrens God-Fathers and God-Mothers ( as they call them ) by Promise and Vow , that they shall forsake the Devil and all his Works , and yet endeavour to perswade them , 't is impossible for them so to do , i. e. to live without Sin , or to avoid all sinning , wherein they obey the Devil , and do his Work ? And note , that this Doctor S.F. has in this Point also contradicted the said Doctor Stillingfleet , his now Bishop . See his Sermon Preach'd before the King , March ▪ 13. 1666 / 7. Wherein he does not only plead , and argue it as our Duty to obey God's Laws and Commands , but the Possibility thereof , through the Assistance of his Grace and good Spirit , against them who charge God with laying impossible Laws upon Mankind , &c. and puts the Question , What then is wanting , but only setting our selves with a serious obedience to them , to make his Commands , not only , not impossible , but easy to us ? Now , that this Priest S.F. who styles himself D.D. has apparently contradicted his said Bishop ; the Contradiction being between the Impossibility and Possibility , of living without sining , or avoiding all Sin , Charge 12. Against some of our ancient Friends , for asserting that ( he calls ) main fundamental of all our Religion , namely , The Light , and Christ within us , and that this Light is in its own being , no other than God himself , the Christ of God , and Saviour of the World , the living Principle of God , of the Divine Nature , &c. Obs. And we do not believe this to be either Unchristian or Antichristian , as he has rendered it by his Title over it , which is no Proof , but his own bare Affirmation and Charge , wherein he imposes still ; we preach no other Light but what is Divine , of the divine Nature and Being , and manifest by degrees in us . God is Light , and in him is no Darkness at all , and hath shined in our Hearts , 2 Cor. 4.6 . 1 John 1.5 . And Christ saith , I am the Light of the World , he that followeth me , shall not abide in Darkness , John 8.12 . and Chap. 12.46 . And he saith , Believe in the Light , that ye may be the Children of the Light , John 12.36 . And his Apostles Preached , not only Christ as without , but also Christ as within , in Spirit ; and so did Christ himself , John 14.20 . and 15.4 . and 17.23 . 2 Cor. 13.5 . And therefore our Adversary is far out , and shews himself Unchristian in opposing such ancient Christian Doctrin , as this of the divine Light , and Christ within , &c. Rendring it both Unchristianity and Antichristianity . The Lord deliver poor Souls from such ignorant , dark , and unchristian Preachers and Doctors , who neither know the holy Scriptures , nor Jesus Christ , nor his divine Light , or power of God within them . Charge 13. Is about the Holy Scriptures ; that one said , They are not the Word of God ; not the Rule and Guide of Faith and Life to the Saints , but the Spirit of God that gave them forth ; the Covenant of Life and Peace ; That a Man may lawfully deny the Scriptures to be the Foundation of Faith , and Rule of Life , &c. That another Friend said , Faith is the Ground of the Scriptures , and of the Scriptures the Ground of Faith , &c. ( With more of like Nature in his Charge , elsewhere Answered , and Explain'd in our Friends Books quoted by him . Obs. Where any of our Friends have said or writ such things , it was so far from undervaluing or slighting the Holy Scriptures , that the matters here charged as unchristian , are agreeable to the very Doctrin of Christ , and his Holy Apostles ; as , First , That the Word of God is Christ. In the Beginning was the Word , John 1. His Name is called , The Word of God , Rev. 19.13 . Secondly , That the Spirit of God and Christ , is the Saints Guide and Rule of Faith ; to lead and guide them into all Truth , as Christ Jesus promised , John 16 , ●3 . Thirdly , That Christ is the Foundation of the Saints Faith , and not the Scriptures . No other Foundation can any Man lay , than that which is laid , which is Christ. Fourthly , That Faith is the Ground of the Scriptures , and not the Scriptures the Ground of Faith , is very plain . I believed , and therefore I have spoken , Psal. 116.10 . 2 Cor. 4.13 . And there were many true Believers before the Scriptures were writ , who wanted not a true Foundation or Rule . 'T is wonderful strange , this old great Doctor should represent such Doctrins as these , either Antichristian , or Unchristian . The Lord teach him better , and humble him unto Repentance , for his unchristian and uncharitable Opposition . Charge 14. Against E.B. for saying , All who go before the moving of the Spirit , their Prayers , Preaching and Ordinances , I deny , &c. We own the immediate Spirit of God , which was before the Scripture was written , to be the Rule of our Conversation . And against G. Keith , viz. We are to wait for an immediate Call , Motion , &c. to preach , pray , or give thanks , and forbear till it be given . Charge 15. Against being infallibly guided by the infallible Spirit that gave forth the Scriptures , and speaking from the Mouth of the Lord. Charge 16. Against that which was spoken from the Spirit of God , in any , being of as great Authority as the Scriptures , ( or greater , ) and our Friends pretending to speak or write , by one and the same Spirit , according to measure , by which Christ , and the Apostles , and Prophets spoke . Obs. We do not perceive any Antichristianity or Unchristianity , either justly chargeable upon these Passages , but rather on this Doctor , for so judging them all : From which it naturally follows , 1. That he is for praying and preaching , before , or without the moving of the Spirit of God , and so runs when the Lord never sent him , contrary to the true Prophets , Christ and his Apostles Doctrin , and Christians Practice , Jer. 23.21 , 22. 1 Pet. 4.11 . 2. He does not own the immediate Spirit of God and Christ to be the rule or guide of his Conversation , contrary to Christ and his Apostles Doctrin . 3. Nor waiting for any immediate Call or Motion from God , to preach , pray , or give thanks ; so that he promotes only a Will-Worship , which God never accepts . 4. Though we always confess the holy Scriptures of the old and new Testament to be given by divine Inspiration , and prefer them before , and above all other Writings or Books , and in no wise question the Truth of them ; yet we must needs allow the holy Spirit ( from whence they came ) the preference , and its immediate Teaching and Speaking in the Soul , as of greater Efficacy , Power , and Authority to that Soul , than the bare writing or Scripture without , or only reading thereof , though it contain the same Words immediately taught . And so Christ and his Apostles living and powerful preaching , in and from the powerful motion of the holy Spirit , as being of greater Efficacy , Power and Authority , than the outward Writing or Scripture it self , simply or abstractly considered , as distinct from that Spirit , tho' the Words preached , and the Words written may be the same : For the Gospel as livingly preach'd , came not in Words only , but also in Power , and in the Holy Ghost , 1 Thess. 1.5 . For the real Authority , Efficacy and Service , the Holy Scripture has upon a Soul , is from the holy Spirit , or Word of Life , giving the true Belief and right Understanding thereof . But we may suppose , that our Adversary's Charge in this Point , is from his not owning the immediate teaching of God , or preaching by the immediate motion and guidance of his blessed Spirit in these days , but only by Tradition ; his Acquirement , by reading and study of other Mens Works and Lines , made ready to his Hand ; and therefore , that he wants divine Power , Authority and Efficacy in 's Ministry : And then he might be more ingenuous to lay aside his Trade of Preaching , and leave the People to read the Holy Scriptures , without his meanings , or private Interpretations upon them . Charge 17. In this he accuses our Paper , asserting our Christianity with a Tedious and Obscure Harangue , under pretence of enjoying the spiritual Part of Baptism , and the Lord's Supper ; but neither Refutes nor Answers what we have writ in that Case , both of our Christian Experience , and agreeableness to holy Scripture ; so the less notice need be taken of his Charge against our Friends , for Asserting the Baptism of the Holy Ghost . Charge ibid. And that the Bread and Wine being no other than a Figure of a spiritual Thing , which is the Substance , which being witnessed , the Figure or Shadow is not obliging , being ended , i. e. In the New Covenant . Charge 18. Against some of our Friends , telling them , That they set up their Carnal Ordinances , in Christ's stead , calling them their Means , and not witnessing the immediate Appearance of Jesus Christ in their Souls , drawing them in his Life and Testifying against the beggarly Rud●ments of the World , and their Carnal Observances . Obs. What more than a Figure does this Doctor suppose the Bread and Wine which they minister to be in the Sacrament so called ? Does he think them to be the Substance , which is Christ ? If not , then 't was very unadvisedly and uncharitably done to charge our Friends , as Antichristian or Unchristian either in this Point for calling the outward Elements of Bread and Wine , &c. A Figure only , as Protestant Martyrs esteemed them . Vid. Dr. Cranmer Disp. at Oxford , &c. 3. v. Mar. In opposition to the Papists affirming them to be the Substance Christ. Let him therefore tell us what he esteems them , if not a Figure . For the Spiritual Substance is Christ , he is that One Bread. John 6. 1 Cor. 10. and his Spiritual Baptism is The one Baptism , Ephes. 4. and in him the Shadows and Figures are ended . Charge 19. About the Resurrection , That W.P. said , To assert the same Body that falls shall rise , is incons●stent with Scripture , Reason , &c. And against another Friend for saying , The Seed of God is hid in thee , &c. Obs. He having not wherewithal justly to charge us with denying the Resurrection it self , for that we never did , but always believed it , of both the Just and Unjust , and that they shall come to Judgement every Man for himself . Now our Friends are charged because they believe a Spiritual Resurrection in opposition to their Adversary's asserting a Carnal or Sameness of Bodies to rise ; wherein this Adversary's Charge reflects upon the Apostle's Testimony in this Case , as well as on our Friends as Unchristian ; For the Apostle answers such Fools Questions , by way of Allusion plainly , — And that which thou sowest , thou sowest not that Body that shall be , &c. God giveth it a Body as it pleaseth him , and to every Seed his own Body . There is a natural Body , and there is a spiritual Body ▪ 1 Cor. 15. ch . and 35 , 36 , 37 , 44 , Verses , &c. Which is no other than what our Friends believe and hold . Charge 20. Of Christ's second coming to Judgment against this Question , i. e. Where proves he that Christ's second coming without Sin to Salvation , is a Personal Coming ? Obs. And where proves he that it is Unchristian to ask such a Question to any that holds it ? Or that Christ's second coming without Sin unto Salvation mentioned , Heb. 9.28 . is called in Scripture , A Personal Coming ? This he should have prov'd before he had assumed the Charge of Unchristian or Antichristian , against any of our Friends for such a plain question . See what the Scripture saith , Heb. 9.28 . Christ was once offered to take away the sins of many , and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation . They who then looked or waited for Christ's Appearance the second Time to their Salvation , surely were not disappointed of their Hope and Expectation in him ; For he did spiritually appear to their Salvation to save , and set them free from Sin. See Tit. 2. Charge last . Of the Judgment it self , and Heaven and Hell. 1. Against Wm. Dewsbury . For saying , Mind the Light in thy Conscience , and it will bring thee to Judgment and the Righteous law , and the Book will be open'd in thee , wherein thou shalt see all thou hast done ; and give account for every idle word , and the Law will cut thee down , and cast thee into Hell , where is weeping and wailing for want of the Presence of God. 2. And then the Dr. addeth . Mr. Jonathan Claphan taxeth the Quakers , that they granted no local Heaven or Hell , none but what is now within Men. 3. And that R. Hubberthorn , in a Book in answer to Mr. Clapham , called Truth and Innocency , spends many li●es in proof , that there is something of Heaven and Hell felt here , which Mr. Clapham denied not . Obs. 1. For Men to mind the Light of Christ in their Consciences , this is no Unchristianity , but their Duty , even to believe in the light , and walk in it , John 12.35 , 36. — This Divine Light of Christ , and Law of God in the Heart ( if minded , ) will discover and reprove all evil Deeds , and bring the evil doer to Judgment , and to feel Condemnation and Sentence of Death , Tribulation and Anguish upon the Soul , the Terrors of the Lord , and Sorrows and Pains of Hell in some degree , because of Sin and Iniquity , that through Judgment men may be prepared for Mercy . No true Christians will count these ( being their manifest experiences ) either Antichristian or Unchristian . 2. The Charge he has from our Old Adversary Jonathan Clapham against the Quakers , is not true , i. e. That they grant no Heaven nor Hell , but what is Now within Men. For we really believe that the Righteous shall know and enjoy more of Heaven hereafter , than now they do here in this Life , though they have the earnest thereof here . And that the Wicked shall know more of Hell hereafter , than now ; Yet some degree or earnest thereof many feel before they go hence , as Tribulation , Anguish and Terror comes upon them , and they receive in themselves the Recompence of their Error . 3. To his Charge of granting No local Heaven or Hell , we know no ground for it . If by Local he means Place , we grant to what the Scripture saith , i. e. Hear thou in Heaven thy dwelling Place , 1 Kings 8.30 . And Dives being in Hell in Torments calls it this Place of Torment , Luke 16.28 . 4. That there 's something of Heaven and Hell felt here , is certainly true ; Our Conversation is in Heaven , Phil. ●3 . 20 . This was experienced by true Christians , who were made to sit together in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus , Ephes. 2.1 . And did not David feel something of Hell , when he said , The Terrors of Death compassed me , and the Pains of Hell took hold on me , Psal. 116.3 ? See also , Psal. 18.5 . and 49.15 . and 86.13 . But 1 st . what does the Dr. mean by Local Heaven and Hell ? 2 d. Whether there are not more Heavens and Hells than One ? Else what means the Heaven of Heavens ? and the Lowest Hell , 1 Kings 8.27 . Deut. 32.22 ? 3 d. Whether Hell be always spoken of or intended in Scripture as a limited Place ? as where it is said , H●ll hath enlarged her self , and open'd her Mouth without measure , Isa. 5.14 . And Hell beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming ▪ Isa. 14.9 . And Death and Hell w●re cast into the Lake of Fire , Rev. 20.14 . God has no doubt prepared Degrees of Punishments , and the Limitations thereof suitable to the Degrees of Wickedness , which the Finally impenitent and wicked are justly condemn'd for . II. Henry Osland's abusive and insulting Manuscript examined and briefly answered . HEnry Osland , saith , Few in these parts knew them , ( the Quakers ) sooner than I did some years ago , and then so far as I could judge , their Religion was composed of some Pagan , some Popish , and some Christian Points of Doctrin . Ans. This is a blind Charge without distinguishing , which he calls Pagan , and which Popish points , and we deny his Judgment against us . H.O. They then held — The Christ that dyed at Jerusalem , was a Christ without , but the Christ within was all in all . Ans. This is a false Charge , as if they held two Christ's , whereas they own but one and the same Christ , who died and rose again , and ascended , &c. and is revealed within , was and is Spiritually in the Saints their Hope of Glory , 1 Cor. 15.8 . 2 Cor. 13.5 . Col. 1.27 . H.O. They denied the Resurrection of the Body . Ans. This is a false Charge also , the Resurrection was never denied by us . H.O. You cannot perswade some of us that you own Christ for your Lord and Lawgiver , and the Scriptures . Ans. That 's because of your prejudice , envy and unbelief ; we own Christ for our Lord and Lawgiver nevertheless . H.O. I hear not that you baptize any with Water , Young or Old. Ans. We have no Scripture for sprinkling Infants , nor commission to baptize Believers any more than Paul had , 1 Cor. 1.17 . H.O. On Acts 10.47 . Can any Man forbid Water , &c. Had there been any Quakers there , they would have forbid the Water . Ans. That 's more than he knows what they would have done at that Time and Occasion . H. O Perhaps you will say that this is of the same Nature , as the other Signs , and Shadows , and Figures , which were of a decreasing Nature . Ans. Water-Baptism is confest to be an outward and visible Sign , and it was but a Shadow or Figure of a decreasing Nature , for so John's was . H.O. Hath not our Lord promised his Presence , and to be with us to the End of the World , that use and are sound in his Ordinances ? Go , saith he , Teach and Baptize , and I will be with you . Ans. 1. The Lord is with his Ministers that preach freely , not with the Covetous , nor with Hirelings , who make a Game and Trade of their Preaching . 2. Christ mentions not Water in his Commission — but Teach , Baptizing them into the Name , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost . H.O. Pray tell me who can Baptize with the Spirit , Is it not John 's Work , or any Man's , or Christ's Work alone ? Read Matt. 3.11 , 12. Ans. It is Christ's Work to baptize with the Spirit , to convert , to save , &c. Yet his Ministers attended with his Power and Presence are instrumental therein , even in Spiritual Baptism , as well as the Conversion of Sinners . H.O. Other Christians sit under these Ordinances with great delight , and they are sweet to their Taste . Answ. The converted Souls great Delight , and the Fruit that 's sweet unto the Taste thereof , is in sitting under the Shadow of her Beloved , and partaking of his Living , and pleasant Fruit , Cant. 2.3 . H.O. You do not own Christ for your Lord and Law-giver , and the Scriptures for his Law , seems plain to us , in that you Communicate not in the Body and Blood of Christ at the Table , as other Christians do . Answ. We both sincerely own Christ for our Lord and Law-giver , and the holy Scriptures , and do communicate with all spiritual Christians at the Table of the Lord , where we livingly partake of Christ that one living Bread from Heaven , and the Cup of Blessing , which only can , and doth comfort , strengthen and nourish our Souls to eternal Life , as we daily in his Light do wait upon him . H.O. On Acts 4.8 . and 13.9 . These had then Christ within them , and yet they sat down at the Supper , Acts 2.4 . Others fill'd with the Spirit of Christ , yet came together to break Bread , 1 Cor. 10.16 . and 11.26 . Paul gives them Directions , &c. Answ. It s not question'd , that they who receiv'd the Word and believed , mentioned in Acts 2. did continue in Fellowship , and breaking of Bread , and daily in the Temple ; and breaking Bread at home , did eat their Meat together , with gladness and singleness of Heart , ( which we truly own ) but also , they had all things common , they sold their Possessions and Goods , and parted them to all Men , as every one had need . And that the Disciples came together to break Bread , Acts 20.7 . But the Question is , 1. Whether , because these Things were done by Believers then , they must be practised by the Church of Christ as long as the World lasts ; if so , why are they not all ? Are all their Temporary Practices , Commands ? If so , why do not the present Priests and Professors sell their Possessions , and divide them , and have all things common ? 2 And whether Christ's Practice as to the Bread and Cup , and Passover in his Supper , Luke 22. was therefore an Institution injoyn'd by him to be observed , and practised in his Church while the World lasts ? Christ took , brake , and gave them Bread , and Fish likewise , after he was risen , Luke 24.30 . John 21.13 . But we find not that he imposes these as a Sacrament , or perpetual Institution , to be allways observed in his Church . 3. And Paul having recited Christ's Practice , says to the Corinthians , As oft as ye eat this Bread , and drink this Cup , ye shew the Lord's Death till he come , 1 Cor. 11.26 . Was this an universal and perpetual Command to the Church ? Or , was it not fulfilled in Christs COMING , which those very Corinthians waited for , 1 Cor. 1.7 . and 4.5 . and which coming of Christ , they had then great need of , to remove and end the Strifes , Divisions , Carnality , Drunkenness , Sleepiness , and Disorders among them , 1 Cor. 3.3 . and 11.21 , 30 ? We farther seriously ask , 1. If the outward Bread and Cup were not figurative visible Signs , or Shadow of something more excellent ? 2. If outward Types , Figutes and Shadows , be not of a decreasing and vanishing Nature ? 3. What perpetual Command and Necessity is there of the Shadow to continue , the Substance being come and manifest in Christ's Church ? 4. Is not Christ the Sum and Substance , and end of all outward Shadows , Types and Figures ; and the Bread of Life from Heaven , the spiritual Meat and Drink of every sanctified Soul ? 5. Is not the inward Living , and spiritual Enjoyment of Christ , and our being truly partakers of Christ , far more excellent than the outward Observation of the Shadow , to put us only in remembrance of him ? 6. If the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in Spirit and Power , and his Members and Saints spiritual Communion with him , their eating and drinking at his Table , in his Kingdom , Luke 22.16 , 30. and partaking with him of his spiritual Supper , or supping with him , Rev. 3 20. do not fully answer and fulfill the end of the Figures and Shadows , as being a far more excellent Dispensation ? Shew us any Thing figurative or shadowish mentioned in Scripture , that we cannot shew the substance thereof under the same Term or Title . 7. Can any Bread , Cup , or Wine give Life unto , or nourish the Soul unto Eternal Life ? then that which is spiritual , the Bread of Life , and Wine of the Kingdom of Christ , even the same Bread and Wine , in Wisdom's House , Prov. 9.5 . Pray , seriously consider these Questions , for they are serious , and to us of concern . H.O. Say they ( i. e. the Quakers ) That Christ enlightens every Man that comes into the World : I told them , that was with the Light of Nature . Answ. Where proves he that Light of Christ in every Man , John 1.9 . is but the Light of Nature ? By what Scripture proves he this ? when 't is expresly said , In him was Life , and the Life was the Light of Men , John 1.4 . which rather proves it a divine and spiritual Light , for that Life that was in Christ the Eternal Word , was the Light of Men. Can this be the Light of Nature ? How great is the Darkness of such Preachers who so teach ? H.O. That you do not own Christ for your Lord and Teacher , you do not own the Ministry of such men who are lawfully called , set apart by such as have lawful Authority in the Church . It is plain in Scripture , Christ gave some Apostles , some Prophets , and some Evangelists , &c. for the perfecting of the Saints , &c. Answ. The first part charged against us , is not true ; we do own Christ's Ministry and Ministers sent by him , who are gifted and qualified for the Work of his Ministry ; but such Ministers as were never called , gifted , nor qualified by Christ , but made and authorized only by Men , and who deny any immediate Call or Revelation from Christ in these Days , and who in their Preaching , oppose Perfection and living without sinning in this Life ; such we do and shall deny , and testifie against . H.O. Are all Apostles , are all Prophets ? What , may every Man or Woman speak in the Church ? Oh no. Answ. Though all are not such , yet if the Spirit of the Lord be upon them to speak or prophesie , as he has promised , Jo●l 2. that 's not to be limited nor quenched ; Ye may all prophesie one by one , 1 Cor. 14.31 . And there were Women among them , Chap. 11.5 . Therefore the Prohibition to their Women , 1 Cor. 14 . 34· was not General , nor comprehending all States and Attainments of Christian Women , nor yet to make void that Prophecy , Joel 2.28 , 29. nor to hinder godly Women ( gifted and qualified ) from their Duty of being Teachers of good things , Titus 2.3 . H.O. Take heed to thy self , and thy Doctrin , continue in them , 1 Tim. 4.15 , 16. That is , be constant in Preaching , no● in your Study one day , and at Plow the next . Answ. There were better and more effectual Preachers , who were Plow-men , Shepherds , Herds-men , Fishermen , &c. 1 Kings 19.19 . Amos 1.1 . and 7.14 . Mat. 4.18 , 19. John 21.7 . 1 Cor. 4.12 . than you , who by the help of your acquired Arts , and Learning , contrive and study Sermons , and fill your Heads out of other Men's Books , and Authors , instead of waiting upon God for Light and Understanding in divine Matters . The true God is not limited , he teacheth the Plowman Discretion , and is more felt and known by an honest Plowman at his Plow , than by a corrupt Priest in his Study or Closet , setting his Imaginations at work , filling his Head with Notions , out of other Mens Works , and Lines made ready to his Hand . H.O. Where is your Presbytery ? Who lays on Hand ? Who sets apart among you ? Who is set apart to the Work ? I know them not . Answ. We have true and faithful Ministers among us , called and set apart by Christ Jesus , and owned and approved of by faithful Elders in Truth , and the Church of Christ , though they do not come under the Hands of your Presbytery . H.O. Some say , John Payton of Dudley speaks sometimes , yea , and the Women often talk in your Churches ; an hour together , is this your Christianity ? Ans. Good Christian Women to whom God has made good his promise , Joel 2.28 , 29. may be required of him sometime to speak among his People in Humility and Godly Fear , and be no worse nor less Christians for that : There were Prophetesses and Godly Women in the days of the Holy Prophets , and among the Primitive Christians , who were also Teachers of good things . H.O. When you turn Quakers you forsake all Fellowship and Communion with all other People whatsoever . Is this a part of your Christianity ? &c. Is this Obedience to the Apostles Doctrin , forsake not the assembling of your selves together ? Ans. Israel shall dwell alone , and not be numbred among the Nations ; the Lord 's peculiar People are a chosen People , called and chosen out of Kindreds , Tongues and People , and must be separate from the unclean . God has called and gathered us by his Arm of Power out of all empty Professions , and to turn away from all such as have a Form of Godliness , but deny the Power ; from all the proud and covetous hireling oppressing Priests and Teachers made by the Will of Man. And we are required to assemble our selves , inwardly to wait upon and Worship God in Spirit and Truth , distinct and separate from them who are , — But formal outside traditional Worshippers . H.O. You will have no Communion with any other above ground or below : you have in Stowerbridge a constant able ancient profitable Preacher , able to divide the Word aright in the publick Assembly , — you have also others in the licensed House , that preach Truth there frequently . Ans. If this his able ancient Preacher at Stowerbridge be Dr. Ford , who he pleads for , and the same S.F. D.D. who has printed the perverse , fallacious and abusive Scheme to prove our ancient Friends unchristian and antichristian ; And if the Preachers in the licensed House ( he talks of ) be such as H. Osland himself , we have but very poor Encouragement to go to hear or learn of either , because of the Envy and Abuse of the one , and the Ignorance of the other . H.O. But you have built you a Fabrick to binder from attending at either . Ans. Our Meeting House or New Fabrick , as he calls it , is one Cause of Dr. Ford's , and H.O. his present Envy , and perverse Scribling against us ; they envy our Liberty and Prosperity , and have now begun the Quarrel with us , to misrepresent and defame us , which shews a partial persecuting Spirit in them ; which is far from either a true Christian Spirit , or State of Saints . H.O. What are there no Christians , no Saints in either ? Are ye the only called and chosen ? How went the Spirit and the Grace of God by the other Assemblies , to sit down with you ? Ans. This Question is much like that of Zedekiah the false Prophet to Micaiah the true , when he had smote him on the Oheek , Which way went the Spirit of the Lord from me to speak unto thee ? 1 Kings 22.24 . But this was no proof against the true Prophet , nor for the false ; and as poor an Argument for H.O. against the Quakers . H.O. Must you be Christians , because you deny the Communion of Saints ? Ans. A false Charge , the Communion of Saints ( which is Spiritual , ) we never denied , but are come in measure into it through the Power and Goodness of our God in Christ unto us . H.O. Doth the Preaching of Dr. Ford , and our hearing of him , unfit us for Fellowship with you ? Or our hearing a young lively Non-conformist ? Ans. Which does he prefer here as , better Preacher ? the Learned Dr. or Lively Non-conformist , by this distinction ? His thus pleading for hearing Dr. Ford , the Parish-Priest at the publick Assembly or Parish-Church ( so called , ) or a young lively Non-conformist ( as he calls him ) at the licenced Meeting House does bespeak such an indifference between Conformity and Non-conformity , as thereby he has at once given away , and betrayed the Cause of all consciencious Non-conformists and Dissenters into the Hands of their Persecutors and Adversaries , so as to give them occasion the more to insult and persecute , if they have opportunity . But we hope all that are conscientious and mean honestly , will see and refuse such Indifferency , such Insincerity , such Medly , such Neutrality and Hpocrisie , as this Lukewarm Temporizer and Hypocrite has here pleaded for . His zealous Brethren of the Presbytery of Scotland , &c. would not endure such his Indifferency and detestable Neutrality , as being a Violation of their solemn League and Covenant , which it seems he has dispensed with . H.O. Doth the Preaching of John Payton , and such as he , make you only Saints , or is it the Preaching of the Women ? Ans. These are but silly Scoffs and Flouts from a proud and scornful Spirit , and prove nothing against us ; we are a Religious People who conscientiously dissent both from the Parish Priests , and such Linsy-woolsey Temporizers as himself ; and doubt not but the Lord has inspired , and rais'd up and made better and more powerful Preachers , probably some poor industrious Men ( and Women ) than himself or his said Dr. ever were . H.O. Nay you will have no fellowship with us in the Bowels of the Earth , you will not sleep with us in the Dust ; for you have many Grave-Yards up and down . Ans. What sad Complaint is this ? what Cause has he for it ? what great hurt do we do them in not burying our Dead with them ? surely none at all ; they have the more room then . And 't is no new thing to purchase Burying Places , some of the Holy Ancients have been presidential in that Case . See Gen. 23.4 , 11. and 49.30 . and 50.13 . H.O. Now your Belief of God and Christ , and other good things you express in your Paper , prove you only Christians in part , but not that you are compleat in him . Ans. 'T is well he has granted us Christians , so far as to our Belief of God and Christ , and other good things . And then is not this our Belief in God and Christ , the principal Part of Christianity , from whence the other Parts of Christianity gradually and naturally follow , as the good Effects and Fruits of Faith in God and Christ , where there is a Continuance in that Living , Divine and Christian Faith , which worketh by Love into a Compleatness or Perfection in Christ , which we believe in him is attainable ? but so do not they who preach against perfection , and believe not a Possibility for any on Earth to keep from sinning , and therefore such are greatly defective as to Faith and Christianity . Pray , which are the best Christians ? they who believe in Christ unto Salvation from Sin , that they may be compleat in Christ , or they who believe not unto any such Salvation or Compleatness ? H.O. You deny the Ancient Christian Rule [ a Falshood still ] and the great Commands of the Gospel , [ i. e. Water baptizm and breaking of Bread. ] Ans. Nay , the great Commands of the Gospel , which are required both in the Law and Gospel are , Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart , &c. and thou shal love thy Neighbour as thy self . These are the two great and lasting Commandments , Matt. 22.37 , 38 , 39. Luke 10.27 . Where proves he that the other are so , or that they were perpetual Commands of the Gospel ? Let 's have plain Scripture proof . H.O. Your Paper has sham'd you in the Eye of the World , which discovers you to be half Christians at the beast , and the lest in the Nation . Ans. No such matter , his Charge is unjust still , we find no Cause to be asham'd of our Paper , nor has it sham'd us . It has had kind Reception and Approbation by wiser and greater Persons , and of more honesty than H.O. himself ; and wherein is our half Christianity only ? Is it in our Faith in God by Jesus Christ , attended with a sober Godly and Christian Conversation ? what then is the other half of Christianity omitted by us ? does it consist in observation of the outward Elements ? does Christianity consist in Shadows , or in Life and Substance ? Surely the Kingdom of God and of his Christ , and the Life of Christianity in the New Covenant , consists not in Meats nor Drinks , nor divers Washings ( or Baptizings ) or carnal Ordinances , as the Old Covenant did , Heb. 9.10 . but far excels the State of the first Covenant . His Charge that we are the least ( i. e. Christians ) in the Nation ; Is to tell us that the Drunkards , Swearers , Lyars , Whoremongers , Extortioners , &c. in the Nation , ( being entituled Christians by their Baptism , ) are better Christians than the sober People called Quakers : But this we can never believe . H.O. These are not to begin a Quarrel with you , [ and yet 't is really a Quarrel begun with us ; ] but to acquaint you with some of your Defects , &c. And also to entreat you of Stowerbridge , to go to Dr. Ford , an able Minister , he will direct you to obey the whole Will of God. Ans. When will this Parasite cease his temporizing Flattery , and false Insinuations ? How can he be such an able Minister , teach us the whole Will of God , when he opposeth immediate revelation , Preaching and Praying by the immediate Spirit of Christ and Motion thereof ? How then proves he , or H.O. either , his Call to preach ? We do not believe him to be a Minister sent by Christ , or in the Steps of Christ's Ministers , who preached freely as they had freely received . Does S. Ford , and H.O. preach freely , without either Tythes or forced Maintenance , Lucre or Gain of Mony , or Rewards for Preaching ? Dare they say they are free from Coveteousness , Pride and Envy ? And why did not Symon Ford clear himself in answer to D. Wills his Queries sent to him at Northampton , in the year 1662 , about his changing or wheeling about with the Times , his publick Confession , his one while preaching openly against the Common-Prayer , another while reading it ? Whether the same Spirit or the same God could lead him in both ? or whether filthy Lucre did not too much sway him ? If the said S. Ford has not yet answered those Queries , we could heartily wish him seriously to consider how he can in good Conscience answer them to God and Man , for they are remarkable Queries , and pinching in Point of Conscience , and worthy of serious Notice . But being somewhat large , wee 'l at present forbear to insert them all here ; yet know not what we may do hereafter , if the said S. Ford ( who has begun the Quarrel against us , ) will not yet please to study to be quiet , and carry it peaceably towards his quiet honest Neighbours called Quakers ; if he will yet enviously scrible and print more perverse Stuff against us , to abuse and render us odious to the Nation ; we have more to say to him , and it 's not his Empty Title , D.D. shall excuse him or his Advocate H.O. either ; but we hope in the Name of the Lord our God to clear our Consciences as in his sight , and vindicate his blessed Truth against all Falshood , and Hypocrisie . And moreover , we can make it appear , That Dr. Ford in his Charge of Vnchristianity and Antichristianity against the Quakers ; ( so called ) has contradicted his Exposition of the Church Catechism in divers Points . And that therein he teaches his Hearers the very same things which he has condemn'd , as the Antichristianity of the Quakers Ancient Friends ; which manifest self-contradiction is at present reserved for a further Opportunity . III. A Brief consideration of an Epistle directed to Friends and Brethren , at their next general Meeting in London . WHEREAS this pretended Brother , ( or rather envious Libeller ) near the Beginning pretends , That , because he would not do any thing that looks like making or keeping up differences at this Time , when all English Men should be united against the common Adversary ; he resolves not , to print two large Epistles , ( he has writ ) directed as this Paper of his is , Viz. To the Friends and Brethren at their next general Meeting in LONDON , yet near his Conclusion threatens , That if we do not protest against the Errors they implead , &c. He intends ere long to publish them . To all which we say , 1. That if he publish them , he 'll publickly discover his Contradiction to himself , and his own fair Pretence , not to do any thing that looks like making or keeping up differences . 2. That he 's one guilty of that great Abomination , of sowing discord among Brethren , ( what he can . ) 3. His great Envy , Malice and Falshood , and also forgery in Fact , against some of our Friends , may plainly be evinced , which at present we wave . 4. That seeing he feigns himself our Friend and Brother , in directing to us as Friends and Brethren ; He is a false Brother then , who Judas like would betray and expose our ancient Friends and Brethren , to publick Reproach and Persecution , which is the Tendence of his perverse Work against us . 5. Though he highly applauds G. Keith , and Robert Barcley , especially , G.K. in opposition to several of their and our ancient Friends , and Brethren , i. e. R.H. Ja. Parnell , E.B. W.D. I.N. G.F. G.W. W.P. T. Speed , &c. The first Five being deceased . And we have cause to assure our selves , that both G. Keith , and R.B. would abominate this false Brother's Attempt to make Divisions between them , and their ancient Brethren , divers whereof are gone , and have laid down their Head in Peace . And as to his giving these Commendations of G.K. as agreeing with them , i. e. Protestants in this important Truth of the Divine Word , assuming the true Nature of Man in Soul and Body into an immediate Vnion , &c. That Jesus Christ is true and perfect God , and true and perfect Man , &c. very largely and fully , &c. [ All which Truths we firmly believe and own . ] But ( says the false Brother , ) Others in as great Repute among us , as G.K. clearly contradict him , [ which we do not believe , ] Whereupon we solemnly declare , that we find nothing asserted by G.K. and R.B. where rightly cited , but we really own in the matter , and intent thereof ; as about the Holy Scriptures , the Word , the blessed THREE in Heaven , Christ's Divinity , and Manhood , Body Sufferings , &c. And also we do not find , but what our Ancient Friends have written in these Points , are reconcilable to the other , upon a fair and rational , or charitable Interpretation of their true Intentions , and Meanings , and taking due and serious Notice of the Tenor and Import of what they writ upon each Subject , without mangling or curtailing , as this and other Adversaries are apt to do , where any things seem to oppose or vary as to some Terms or Expressions ; no doubt , they may be easily reconciled by the Authors , i. e. some of our Ancient Friends , and G.K. and R.B. though many cannot so learnedly express their Minds and Meaning as they . Howbeit this false Brother , N.N. who seeks Division and Discord among Brethren , feignedly pretends to defend G. Keith , and the Protestant Churches against G.F. E.B. and others ; and says that G.K. owns as fully as they can desire , the Doctrin intended by the Word TRINITY , which ( he says ) they contend not for , but the Doctrin intended ; the Truth of the thing it self we deny not , says G.K. That these THREE are one in Nature and Substance ; yet Three otherwise than by mere Name , Operation or Manifestation , &c. Being distinct in their relative Modes and Properties , G.K. and R.B. are for us , ( says he ) and hopes some of us are of their Mind ; and so far we may very well be call'd Protestant Quakers , — and says , God forbid , that we or the major part of us should approve such as say they are Prophets , but are not , but have said and done such things as are not to be named among Christians or Men. By these partial Insinuations this false Brother would still render us a divided People ; and some who are esteem'd as Ministers of Christ among us , very suspicious and odious . Though we know no reason to disown or protest against either W.D. E.B. R.H. I. P . G.W. W.P. or the rest named by him , ( because he has reviled and abused them as no Protestants , ) nor to disown our Friends G.K. or R.B. whom he pretends to defend , for we have a true , tender and Christian esteem of both , even of them all , and of their Christian Testimonies , and innocent Conversations and Sufferings for Christ. The Author of the Libel , or false Brother , condemns many things he neither answers nor refutes . He supposes Contradiction in Matters reconcilable . He reproaches the Dead whom he did not answer nor confute when Living . One principal Contradiction supposed is this Title of a Paper , i. e. Certain Papers , which is the Word of the Lord ; and yet may not the Scripture be so called ? We say such a Title to any Paper or Writing is improper ; [ from the word ] should be , instead of [ which is the word ] we shall not stand by the said Title as 't is worded without such Amendment . Yet charitably think it was worded contrary to the intent and meaning of the Author ; for Paper and Ink cannot be the Word of the Lord , nor can the Eternal Word be contained therein . Yet that Word hath and may immediatly move upon the Spirits of some to speak and write , and that 's our case . The words cited against G.W. and others , Thus , Viz. and here thy Antiquity , thy Reasons , ( and [ about ] the 3 Persons thou dreamest of , which thou wouldst divide out of one like a Conjurer , ) are all denyed , and thou with them , ( i. e. his dark Reasons and Imaginations , ) shut up in perpetual Darkness , &c. G.W. positively disowns the Words * , and affirms they are none of his , and that he writ not that part of the Answer to Townsend † , ( which was about the Year 1654. ) yet looks on the words as wrong writ or wrong printed , and that he raced them out , or corrected them long since , where he has met with that Answer . For instead of [ and the 3 Persons , ] it should have rather been [ about the 3 Persons . ] And G.W. shall neither stand by , nor own those words as charged ; after he see them in Print , he was sorry his Name was to that Paper without distinction between what he writ , and what he did not write in it , wherein those words are which give the Occasion . Let this Advertisement clear G.W. and others , and suffice w●ry charitable and ingenuous Reader , as we hope it will. And now seeing this false Brother has so much commended Geo. Keith , and Robert Barcley as to their Soundness in Doctrin , &c. We say there is matter sufficient in their Books in Vindication of the Doctrins , Principles and Christian Religion of the People called Quakers ; which if this false Brother should oppose , he 'll run into further self-contradiction against them , he has so highly applauded . Besides his Misquotations , uncharitable and unjust Reflections and Falshoods ( here omitted ) and his wicked Attempts to sow Discord , cause Divisions and Contentions among Brethen ; he most unfairly picks and nibbles here and there at our Friends Books and Words , taking them in Pieces , Bits and Scraps here and there , leaving out the stress and explanatory Part of the Matter in divers things , we could evince : And thus 't is possible for a disingenuous Person to do by the best of Writings . And lastly , Whereas this false Brother would hear whether we would protest against the Errors his Letters implead , &c. Yet neither tells us his Name , nor Residence , nor how to direct to him , nor who this N.N. is that 's subscribed to his Letters , nor what religious Society he belongs to ; we have more to say or write to him for his better Information , if we knew his Name and where he lives to direct to him , and we should not be unwilling to subscribe our Names to such Defence as we have Cause to make in Truths , and our own behalf ; for we are only defensive in these Controversies , which this and other obscure and sculking Adversaries have begun against us the peaceable People called Quakers , now in a Time of Liberty and Freedom from open Persecution ; which is an Indication that these secret peevish Smiters do secretly envy our present Liberty , and therefore are in the same persecuting Spirit with our open Enemies and Persecutors . This N.N. should come forth like a Man , and discover himself , that some of us whom he has accused might have some friendly Discourse with him , which probably might tend to his Convincement and better Satisfaction , if not obstinately set to oppose . For hitherto he lurks , he smiteth privily in the Dark , he sitteth in the lurking Places to murther the Innocent , he skulks privily to shoot at the Vpright in heart , like the wicked ; If he would be plain and let us know how and whither to direct to him by his right Name , it would give us Opportunity to let him hear more particularly from us ; till then excuse our Brevity . FINIS . Books Printed for , and Sold by Thomas Northcott , in Georgh-Yard , in Lombard-street . RObert Barclay's Apology for the true Christian Divinity , as the same is held forth , and Preached by the People called in scorn Quakers ; being a full Explanation and Vindication of their Principals and Doctrins , &c. G. Keith's Way to the City of God , — His Way cast up , and the Stumbling-blocks removed , — His fundamental Truths of Christianity , — His true Christ owned , as he is true God and perfect Man , — His Rector corrected , — His Truths Defence . G. Fox the Younger's Collections . E. Bathurst's Truth 's Vindication . G. F's . Heavenly Salutation , — His true Christian distinguished from the false . A Narrative concerning Grace Watson's Death . Abigal Fisher's Salutation of true Love. Buds and Blossoms of Piety , with some Fruit of the Spirit of Love , and Directions to the Divine Wisdom . Mankind Displayed , or the History of the Little World ; being curious Collections out of the best Authors , of the most wonderful and remarkable Things , that have been performed by Men and Women , in the several Ages of the World , &c. Scephen Strisp's Epistle concerning Present and Succeeeding Times . Grammatista , or the young Grammarian ; being a very useful selling Book , containing Bills , Bonds , and Receipts , &c. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65854-e220 * To this † I subscribe , Geo. Whitehead . Psal. 10. & 11.2 . 
A47140	----	An exact narrative of the proceedings at Turners-Hall, the 11th of the month called June, 1696 together with the disputes and speeches there, between G. Keith and other Quakers, differing from him in some religious principles / the whole published and revised by Goerge Keith ; with an appendix containing some new passages to prove his opponents guilty of gross errors and self-contradictions. Keith, George, 1639?-1716. 1696 Approx. 262 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 33 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2007-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A47140 Wing K161 ESTC R14328 12937458 ocm 12937458 95822 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A47140) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 95822) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 717:11) An exact narrative of the proceedings at Turners-Hall, the 11th of the month called June, 1696 together with the disputes and speeches there, between G. Keith and other Quakers, differing from him in some religious principles / the whole published and revised by Goerge Keith ; with an appendix containing some new passages to prove his opponents guilty of gross errors and self-contradictions. Keith, George, 1639?-1716. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. Penn, William, 1644-1718. Ellwood, Thomas, 1639-1713. 62, [1] p. Printed for B. Aylmer ..., and J. Dunton ..., London : 1696. Errata: p. 62. Half title: G. Keith's narrative of the proceedings at Turners-Hall, the eleventh of the month called June, 1696. The appendix contains quotations from the works of George Whitehead, William Penn and Thomas Ellwood. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-10 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-11 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2006-11 SPi Global Rekeyed and resubmitted 2007-01 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2007-01 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion G. KEITH's NARRATIVE OF THE PROCEEDINGS at TURNERS-HALL , THE Eleventh of the Month called June , 1696. AN Exact Narrative OF THE PROCEEDINGS AT TURNERS-HALL , The 11th of the Month called June , 1696. Together with the DISPUTES and SPEECHES There , BETWEEN G. KEITH and other QVAKERS , Differing from Him in Some Religious Principles . The Whole Published and Revised , By GEORGE KEITH . With an APPENDIX containing some New Passages to prove His Opponents guilty of Gross Errors and Self-Contradictions . LONDON , Printed for B. Aylmer at the Three Pigeons in Cornhill , and J. Dunton at the Raven in Jewen-street , 1696. The PREFACE . THE Preface to the Friendly Readers , throughout these Three Nations , and elsewhere , professing the Christian Faith in Sincerity . To a●l you sincere B●lievers in the Lord Jesus Christ , and true lovers of him , and of that Holy Christian Religion , whereof he is the Author , throughout these three Nations ▪ and other Countries , where the Christian Religion is Professed , I do humbly recommend this following Narrative to your serious Reading and Consideration of what Station Rank or Quality soever ye be , the subject matter treated on in the said Narrative being so great Fundamentals of the Christian Religion and Faith , that the denyal of them is a downright denyal of the Christian Religion and Faith it self : Seeing therefore the Subject is so great , and so essential to the Christian Faith , it worthily deserveth and calleth for the due and serious Consideration of all the sincere Professors of Christ , to whose hands th●t may happen to come . And since the report of our late differences about Religious Matters , one with another , remaining under one common Name and Designation of Quakers , is spread far and near , not only through these Three Nations , but other Places abroad , as is apparent by the late GENERAL HISTORY of the QUAKERS , Written by Gerard Croese a Hollander , writ Originally in Latin , and lately Published in English here at London . And that the Report of the late Meeting and Conference held at Turners-Hall in London , the 11th of the Month called June , is much gone abroad through both City and Country , chiefly with respect to the subject matter there discoursed , and my undertaking against them of the opposite Party , to prove certain Persons of greatest Note among them , guilty of denying and opposing these great Fundamentals particularly specified in the following Narrative out of their Printed Books , it may be judged that both the love of Christian Verity , and the sense of Christian Duty , will oblige and induce you to read the said Narrative , if it fall into your hands , and others to enquire after it that the truth of the matter may be searched into , whether these whom I have undertaken , to prove guilty of denying and opposing these great Fundamental Truths , be really so or I be guilty in accusing them . I cannot suppose that any sincere Professor of the Christian Faith , to whose Ears the Report of this great Controversie hath come , will be a Gall●o in the Case , so as to care for none of these things . If your outward Estates , Liberty and Property , lay at stake to be endangered , would ye not be awakened to provide the b●st Remedy to secure them , how much more I hope will all sincere Professors of the Christian Religion be concerned for that which is incomparably more valuable than all these outward things ? Even the Redemption of your Souls , which is your true riches ; according to that in Prov. 13.8 . The Redemption of the Soul of a Man is h●s Riches ▪ It is reckoned the greatest Cheat and Imp●sture that can happen in a Nation to cor●upt and adulterate the true Coyn , and falsifie it , so as to make Brass or Iron pass for true Silver ; what shall then be judged of such , who seek to adulterate and falsifie the true Christi●n Religion as to put another thing in place of it , even plain Deism or Gentilism ; to w●t , a Profession of Religion towards God , and Light in Men , excluding Christ God Man and the Faith of him , as he dyed for us and rose again , and is sat down in the Kingdom of the Father , and as he is to come again to judge the Quick and the Dead in the true intire glorified Nature of Man , having the true Soul and Body of Man , the same he had on Earth . The denyal of these great Fundamental Truths of the Christian Religion , with some others necessarily related to them , and joyned with them inseparably , I have undertaken to prove my Opponents guilty of ; and not only I , but many Judicious Persons that were present at that Meeting at Turners-Hall , the 11th of the Month called June of this instant 1696 , of the several Professions of Protestants in this great City , did judge that I have effectually done it . But if I have not done it , and cannot make it justly to appear that these particular Persons are guilty of the things charged by me on them , I shall freely acknowledge that I deserve great blame , and therefore I greatly desire ( if it were the Will of God ) that I might have yet a more Publick Opportunity to be heard , as concerning these things , were it to be called before the greatest Persons of Authority in the Nation , either to make good my Charges against them , and if they be found guilty the blame to lye on them ; or if I be found guilty , that I may have the blame laid on me . But let them be found ever so guilty , as I am most sure they are , ( let them cover and cloak as much as ever they can ) I would not in the least have them persecuted , or any Sufferings , either in Person or Estate , to come upon them My design in this undertaking is , that they may be shamed out of their gross Errors if possible ; or if they continue shameless in them , yet that all others who are not as yet tainted with them , may be preserved from them , and cautioned and warned against them ; for this Gangrene of their vile and gross Errour and Heresie , that is a complex of the worst sort of Errors and Heresies that ever infested the Christian Profession , hath to my certain knowledge overspread many parts and many persons in these Three Nations , as well as elsewhere . Though I charge them not either upon the generality , far less the universality of all them called Quakers . But if they really disown these gross and vile Errors , which I have proved them guilty of in this following Narrative , and be cordial in the belief and acknowledgment of the great Fundamental Truths opposite to those Errors , then it will be that which the sincere Professors of Christianity in these Three Nations will expect from them , and may justly require of them , as publickly to retract and renounce these Errors , as they have publickly asserted them in their Printed Books in the face of the Christian World , otherwise no sincere Christians will believe them to be in good earnest , but that they resemble many old Hereticks , and particularly the crafty Arrians , that pretended and made great Protestations that they owned the true Faith , according to all contained in the Scriptures , when they did nothing less . And whereas some have Objected to me , that since I have acknowledged divers passages in my own Books need correction , and have promised to do it , I ought to have done that in the first place , before I had charged Errors upon others , otherwise it would look like the Hyprocrites seeking to pull cut the Mote out of his Neighbours Eye , when the Beam is in his own Eye . I Answer , The things that need Correction in my Books , compared with the vile Errors in theirs , are but as my Motes to their Beams , which I had so far already pulled out of my own Eye , that I have freely acknowledged them to many viva voce , and have them in readiness to Publish in Print with the first conveniency . Nor are they such things as oppose any Christian Principles of Faith , but of an inferiour nature . And it must be one of these two things that are their greatest hinderances to publish any such Corrections ; that is , either that they are still entangled in those Errors , but are not willing it be known , fearing lest the present publick avouching of them may bring some Persecution on them , or great Infamy and Reproach ; or if they be in their Consciences convinced of those Errors , and so are come to a better understanding of Christian Doctrines and Principles , yet their Pride and high Authority that they have gained over their too credulous followers will not suffer them to make any such free acknowledgment , but especially because any such free acknowledgment , by their own argument and way of reasoning against all other Ministers in all Christian Professions , would as much unminister them , as others they have unministred on that account ; viz want of Infallibility , or being subject and lyable to Errors and Mistakes in Articles of Christian Faith. And this will also not a little stick in the way , to be so humbled that they must acknowledge G. Keith has not falsly accused them , ( as they have severely charged him to have done ) if they confess their former Errors : But how much better were a sincere Confession in the case , taking shame as due to them , and humbling themselves under the power and victory of Truth , than a haughty and arrogant standing out to justifie themselves , in these things that neither God nor good Men will ever justifie them in . And if they continue so bold , as to hold such palpable Contradictions as are discovered in their former and latter Books , and sometimes in the same Books , all ingenuous Persons that know their Contradictions , will conclude them not only still guilty of those Errors , but great Hypocrites ; for n●ne but stark mad men , and crased in their Vnderstandings ( as they have falsly and injuriously represented me to be ) will hold perfect Contradictions , as such but Hypocrites may so dissemble and juggle with them that are weak so as to make them think these things , that are real Contradictions , are not so indeed , but well consistent Truths ▪ It nothing ( I thank God ) moves me that they so severely accuse me , as they have d●ne in their late Printed Pamphlets and Papers ; that Envy and Malice hath influenced me thus to expose them , the Testimony of my Conscience , and which is more , of that holy witness in my Conscience , clearing me of all such imputation , is as a Brasen Wall to me against their evil and injurious Aspersions : As they cannot prove it to be so by any of my words or deeds , so the comfort I have in that inward Peace of Conscience in that discharge of my Duty both to them , and to all in the Three Nations , to whom this my so publick Appearance , I hope will be of service , is safeguard enough unto me against their uncharitable constructions . And I do freely leave it to all Impartial Judges , whether they or I be guilty of this severe Charge ; and let the Tree be judged by the Fruits . Their pretended Excuses for not meeting me , as desired , at the Place and Time mentioned in my Printed Advertisement , are so frivolous and weak that they are scarce worth noticing : But however the chiefest of them I Answered on the Place , as the following Narrative will certifie . Their pretence of their not meeting me , for the sake of Religion , the Liberty granted us , and the Civil Peace , is an empty shift , and poor evasion . Is it contrary to their Religion to dispute their Adversary , viva voce ? Why then did they dispute with the Baptists , and mightily provoked them thereunto , and that viva voc● ? And not only with them but with many others , both at London , and in many other Places in the Nation , and that before promiscuous and mixt Auditories , as they commonly call the World , ( excepting their own Party , whom they call , The Elect People of God ) . And why did W. Penn give such a daring Challenge to Thomas Hicks , Reason against Railing , p. 184. and complain against him in these words ? I must needs tell the World , the base Cowardice of this Adversary in hand ; for we have offered him a free Meeting , with his Books in our hands proffering to refute them , viva voce , before the World ; but instead thereof , or any other way , ( as several have been tendered ) he disingenuously slinks away , and puts us off by meer Shifts and Evasions . And let the Reader judge if W. Penn has not shown great Cowardice , and his Party charged by not appearing at all ; whereas T. Hicks , at least , once appeared . But why should such a Dispute viva voce be construed to be against the Liberty granted us , and the Civil Peace , more now than then ; when at that time those in Civil Authority were more severe , whereas now they are very propitious ? And why should Disputes viva voce be more offensive to Civil Peace than Disputes in Print ? I believe they can give no Reason . And it is altogether incredible , that my undertaking the Vindication of the Fundamental Principles of the Christian Faith , professed by the present Authority , against such manifest Opposers of it as I have proved my Opponents to be , can be construed by the Authority to be any breach of the Civil Peace , especially when I had procured the Leave of the Lord Mayor of London for such an undertaking , whereof my Opponents were not ignorant . Their upbraiding me with vain speculations , not telling what those are , showeth their great impertinency : But such who are but a little acquainted with the Religious Differences betwixt them and me , may easily guess what they mean by my vain speculations , even the Fundamental Truths of the Christian Faith , and other solid and sound Articles of Doctrine thereunto belonging : And if these be not they , I dare them to name what my vain Speculations are , whereof they accuse me . But to be sure , the plain and manifest Proofs I have brought out of their Books against the greatest Truths of Christianity , demonstrate their Speculations not only to be Vain , but Pernicious and Pestiferous . Their Hypocrisie is manifest , in making what they call my Passionate and Abusive Behaviour , an Excuse for not meeting me , when desired . For if they thought that I would show any such Behaviour , it would be such an advantage to them , that it would rather be an Argument to invite them to meet me , that I may discover my self , than to disswade them . But blessed be God , that preserved me at that Meeting , when I had great Provocation given me by some of their Party , in such a Temper and Moderation of Spirit ( as hundreds are ready to witness ) as became a sober Christian , when some of them that appeared against me , shewed themselves very outragious . And as insignificant is their Excuse of declining to meet , because it was not an agreed Meeting on both sides : As if guilty Persons are not to be tryed without their consent and agreement . Was it not more Fair , Just and Equal in me , and my Friends , to give them a fair Tryal , with open and free access of all sober Persons , as many as the Place could contain without Croud , and leave it to the Consciences of the Auditors how to judge , and intimate my Intenti●n at a convenient time beforehand , than for them to condemn me in a clandestine Place without all Tryal , fair or unfair , and not to let me have access to them , but when and how little time they pleased , and to suffer none of my Friends to be present to be Witnesses of their unfair proceedings against me . Their upbraiding me by insinuating my assuming a Spiritual Jurisdiction over them , and summoning them to appear before me , is idle and vain . The Injurer is Debtor to the Injured , and accountable to him : But let them tell what Spiritual Jurisdiction they had over me , to call me several times to them at their Yearly Meetings 1694 , more than I had over them to call them to our Meeting at Turners-Hall , 1696 , unless they will fly to their common Pretence , common to them with the Church of Rome , their Infallibility ; the contrary of which they have manifestly showed ; and never any Society of People professing Christianity hath given greater Instances of not only their Fallibility , but their being miserably deceived , than these Men have done . And as idle is that other Excuse of theirs , that they will not dispute with me , viva voce , because I am gone off from them ( but they did thrust me from them by their Vnjust Excommunication , when I would have stayed among them so long as I could have any hope to have reclaimed them from their Errors ) ; but if my going off be a sufficient Reason why they will not Answer me viva voce , it is as sufficient a Reson why they should not Answer me in Print , which yet they boast they will do : For if I be not worthy nor fit to be Answered by Word , nor am I to be Answered by Writ : But all this sheweth their confusion and inconsistency . They think such a Meeting at Turners-Hall , is but in a corner , and not in the face of the Nation ; but they are like to find it hath been so much in the face of the Nation , that many in the Nation will notice it , possibly more than they would either wish or expect , and more than any thing that hath happened to them for many Years past , to give the Nation a discovery of them and of their vile Errors and irregular Practices . If my Adversaries happen to put out an Answer to this Narrative , filled ( as their manner is ) with the Falshoods and Perversions , and vain Shifts and Evasions , I purpose , with Leave of the Civil Authority , which I hope to obtain as well as formerly , God willing to Print a New Advertisement of a Méeting , and to give them timely Notice before-hand , to detect their Errors and Abuses yet further , and to renew the like Practice , as oft as they abuse the World and me with their Prints . For their unfair way of Disputing in Print , is much easier discovered viva voce , than by Answering in Print , and is more acceptable to all Free and Impartial People , who in that way are more capable to judge . G. KEITH . It is thought proper in the first place to insert the following Advertisement , bearing date the 11th of the Third Moneth , called May , 1696 , and sent to those Persons called Quakers , chiefly concerned ; it being the occasion of the following Conference . An ADVERTISEMENT . Of a Meeting ( about some Controversies in Religious Matters of Faith ) to be held by George Keith and his Friends , at their usual Meeting place in Turners-Hall in Philpot-Lane , London , the Eleventh Day of the Month called June , 1696. to begin about the Ninth Hour , and to be adjourned , if Occasion requireth : To which Meeting William Penn , Thomas Elwood , George Whitehead , John Pennington , and these of the Second Days Weekly Meeting at Lombard-street , London , called Quakers , are justly desired to be present , to hear themselves charged , and proved guilty of the following things , and they shall be freely heard , to answer to their several Charges . First , WHereas William Penn hath accused me George Keith , in a Publick Meeting at Ratcliffe , of my being an Apostate , and Impostor , and endeavouring to pluck up the Testimony of Truth by the Roots ; and that he hath not either then or since , after many months , proved his Charge to be true , tho' he promised to answer me ( before many Witnesses ) when I told him , I thought to put him to prove his Charge in the Face of the Nation : And I being conscious to my self , that I am not guilty of his Charge , I charge him to be guilty of False Accusation , and Defamation , and offer to prove him to be so ; as also I offer to prove him guilty out of his Printed Books , ( which it doth not appear that he hath Retracted or Corrected ) of most Erroneous and hurtful Principles , contrary to the Fundamental Doctrines of the Christian Faith and Religion delivered to us in the Holy Scriptures : And also that he is guilty of gross Contradiction to himself . Secondly , Whereas Thomas Elwood hath Printed sundry Defamatory Books against me , I charge him to be guilty of False Accusations , Perversions , and Forgeries , contained in his said books , as also of most Erroneous and Hurtful Principles , to the great shame of his Profession , and Scandal of Christian Religion , and I offer to prove him to be so . Thirdly , Whereas George Whitehead did joyn with a prevailing Party , in that called The Yearly Meeting of the Quakers , in the Third Month , 1695. to pass a most Unchristian Censure of Excommunication against me , ( without any Proof or Charge of either Error in Doctrine , or Evil Conversation ) I charge him to be guilty of False Accusation , and of a most false and unjust Censure , and offer to prove it against him . As also , I offer to prove the said George Whitehead , out of some of his Printed Books ( which it doth not appear that he hath Retracted or Corrected ) guilty of most Erroneous and Hurtful Principles , contrary to the Fundamental Doctrine of the Christian Faith and Religion . Fourthly , Whereas John Pennington hath Printed Defamatory Books against me , and hath Accused me to be an Apostate , I charge him to be guilty of false Accusation and Defamation , and I offer to prove it at the said Meeting . Fifthly , Whereas the Second Days Weekly Meeting of the People called Quakers , in Lombard-street , London , hath approved or Countenanced the above-mentioned Scandalous Books , and another late Book from Pensilvania , signed by Caleb Pusey , falsly called by him , A modest Account from Pensilvania of the Principal Differences in a Point of Doctrine , &c. I charge them to be guilty of great Injustice against me , as also of being guilty of the false Accusations , Perversions , Forgeries , and false Doctrines contained in the said Books by their approving the same , and allowing them to be publickly sold next Door to their Meeting-place , by one of their own Profession . If it happen that few or none of the above-mentioned Persons shall be present at the said Meeting , being conscious to themselves of the badness of their Cause , yet I do hereby declare and publish my full intention to be present , ( God willing ) with my Friends , at the said Place and Time appointed , to make good the Charges against them . And any moderate and Friendly People of other Professions , have freedom to be present , so far as there is room in the place to receive them , without Crowd or Throng , to hear what shall be said and proved in these matters above-mentioned . GEORGE KEITH . London , the 11th day of the Third Month , called May , 1696. And here I think fit to give a true Account of the Just Cause I have to intimate such a Meeting . IN my book called , A Seasonable Information and Caveat , against a scandalous book of Th. Elwood , I made a profer to Th. Elwood , to meet him at any Place and Time that he would appoint , to prove him guilty of gross Forgery in matters of Fact , &c. and also of false Doctrine : But he did no wise assent to any such proffer , nor gave any rational Excuse for his Rufusal ( pretending , he would not give G K. an Opportunity to gratifie the Rabble , and disgrace his Profession he yet made of Truth , by so publick a discovery of his ungoverned Passions ) . [ What is this but great hypocrisie ? And no doubt , if he or his Party thought to get any advantage against me , such a Publick Appearance , either in regard of the Cause , or of what he and they call my ungoverned Passions , they would greedily embrace it : But the reality of the matter is , they are not willing their great injustice , as well as their insolent carriage , and most unruly Passions in clandestine places , should be discovered ; shutting the doors upon all but themselves , that none that were equal and impartial Hearers and Observers might be present , to be a check to their rude and insolent carriage against me , many speaking to me at once , which some among themselves reproved at the first Yearly Meeting , I appeared among them . Thus they seek to murther the Reputation of the Innocent in secret places . ] And instead of assenting to my just proffer , he prints another book against me , filled with more than double ( to what was in his former book ) of Forgeries , Perversions , False Accusations and Misrepresentations . And I having neither time , nor ability of outward Estate , to print Answers to him and others , that heap book upon book against me , with no charge to them , ( they having got a way without any charge or cost to them , to Print what they please ) . And things being thus , I appeal to all moderate persons , whether this my intimation of such a Meeting , in the defence of the Fundamental Doctrines of Christianity , as the necessity of Faith in Christ , as he outwardly suffered at Jerusalem to our Salvation , Justification and Sanctification , by the Blood of Christ outwardly shed , the Resurrection of the Body that dyeth , and Christs coming without us , in his Glorified Body , even the same that formerly suffered Death for our sins , to Judge the Quick and the Dead : All which I offer to prove have been opposed and contradicted by some of them , being the common Faith generally and in common professed by Christians in all professions , and for the defence of which , all sincere Christians are jointly concerned , and also in my just vindication , both as a man and a Christian , be not justifiable and commendable , it being the best way I have at present to clear the Truth and my Innocency , and discover their great injustice towards me , and to Answer the proud and insulting boastings of my Adversaries . And whereas in my late Book , called , A short List of some of the vile and gross Errors of Geo. Whitehead , &c. I proposed a just demand to William Penn , to give me an Opportunity for him to make good his Charge against me at any publick Meeting of the People called Quakers , in or about London ; instead of his assenting to my just Demand , there comes forth a Third Book of Tho. Elwood , multiplying his gross Forgeries , Defamations , and Misrepresentations against me , and also containing most false and Antichristian Doctrine , to the great dishonour of the blessed Name of Christ , and the Christian Religion . And as if G. W. and W. P. were not alive , or not able to Answer for themselves , he will needs Answer for them ; and the said Tho. Elwood puts a most impudent and notorious perversion upon my plain words , in my Proposition to W. Penn , saying of me , as he has worded his Demand , he seems to have bespoke a Publick Meeting that he might have done it himself ; see page 159. and page 160. of his Truth defended . As if ( saith he ) he wanted such an Opportunity to prove himself an Apostate . Let the Reader but read my words in my own Book , and at the first sight he will see the Cheat and Forgery . Observe Reader my words , p. 32. And let him signifie to me the time and place where he will make it to appear . ( I say not when I will ) that his Charge against me is true . May I not well say , that ever such a gross and impudent Forgerer , Wrester and Perverter of a Mans words , should be allowed or permitted to be an Agent , Patron , or Champion for what they call the Body of the People named Quakers , and their Ministry , is a sign that they are at a low Ebb , when they make use of such Tools as T. E. is , whom I can , and do offer to prove not only to be guilty of gross Forgeries and Perversions , and Antichristian Principles , but grosly ignorant ( in that which he pretends to have knowledge ) — of Humane Learning ; and who is guilty of Pedantick trifling and quibbling , from meer Errors of the Press , not so duly corrected , yet obvious to any intelligent Reader . And to my demanding the like Justice to be done me , as some Years ago we demanded of the Baptists , against Thomas Hicks , he answereth in his last book , falsly called , Truth defended , pag. 158. That betwixt that and this of mine , there is in parallel : For ( saith he ) in that there was a people concerned on each side , &c. Whereas W. P 's calling G. K. Apostate , affects no body that I know of ( saith T. E. ) but himself and himself , but justly : neither is G. K. of any People now , so far as I can understand . Now Reader consider ( and judge by this Taste in the End of his Cask , what sort of Liquor fills the whole ) , W. P 's calling G. K. Apostate , affects no body that he knows of but himself . If this were true , as it is most false , is it not most unjust Reasoning ? G. K. is but one , and the charge of Apostate affects no body but himself ; therefore he must not have Right done to him , nor must his complaint be heard of his being wronged . Hath not every single person as real and true Right to Justice , as a great number ? Otherwise he must Justify all the Persecutions and Murthers that have been acted upon single persons , who have had none perhaps to own them but God alone . But T. E. knoweth that G. K. has Wife and Children that are affected with this unjust charge of W. P. tending to the exposing of them to ruin and want . If so be either W. P. or T. E. could beget an universal perswasion in people , that his Charge is true , but that T. E. saith , the Charge affects me justly , is his begging the Question , which neither he , nor any else can prove ; for they cannot prove that I am declined in the least , from any Principles or Practices of Christianity that I formerly professed : But that without any change of Principles , from what I formerly professed , ever since I was owned by the people called Quakers , I understand better some places of Scripture ; and that God has been pleased of late Years further to enlighten me , and enable me more clearly to conceive , and more distinctly and safely to hold forth the same Principles of my Faith formerly received by me , is no sign of my Apostacy , but of my growth in the Truth , and in the knowledge of it . And whereas there is one thing they mightily aggravate against me , and think they have catch'd me in a great Contradiction , that some time ago I had an Opinion of G. Whitehead and W. Penn , and some others , as being men of sound Principles , and of late I have charged them to the contrary . But to this I Answer , This is no contradiction in Principle , or matter of Doctrine ; the most it argueth , is , that I have been mistaken in these men : but I never heard that a mistake only in mens persons ; was ever made a Badge or Character of Apostacy . But they have no advantage against me in respect of the change of my Opinion of these men , but I have the same advantage against them ; for they have as much changed their Opinion of me as I have of them . And what change of Opinion : I have had of them , is occasioned by themselves , in their late cloaking and excusing vile Errors , which at last , by a more diligent search into their books ( than formerly I made ) I found them guilty of . But whereas T. E. saith , G. K. is of no people now , so far as he can understand ; I value not what he understands in the case ; I was then , and now am a Member of Christs body , which is his Church , that is not limited to this or that particular Society ; nor was I ever so strait in my Charity , to think none the people of God but them called Quakers . And notwithstanding their Bull of Excommunication against me , from a prevailing Party or Faction in the last Yearly Meeting , I have been since well owned , and my Testimony well received at a considerable number of Meetings within not many miles from London , and many of them owned to be Friends and members of the same body , whereof he professeth himself a member . And if it were necessary , I could easily bring a proof , that some , owned as his fellow-members , do own me more than they own him . And it is well known , that these Abuses I have met with from T. E. and W. P. and the prevailing Faction in the last Yearly Meeting , have affected many honest and Conscientious People called Quakers , in divers places , and have been a great scandal and offence to them . However , to take away all pretence of Excuse from T. E. and stop his mouth in the Case , he may see where a Meeting of People have publickly owned me , and my Christian Testimony , in their printed Treatise , called , A Seasonable Testimony ; ( and these did own me then as now ) and have disowned the unchristian and false Excommunication given forth against me by that called ; The Yearly Meeting , 1695. that gave themselves no particular designation of people , nor mentioned any particular Meeting-Place where they met , only Signed by a Raw Young Man , that serveth for his Salary , and dared not but Sign what they enjoyned him , for fear of losing his hire . G. K. THE Proceedings at TVRNERS-HALL BETWEEN G. KEITH , and Other QVAKERS . AT the Opening of the Meeting , when G. K. stood up to make some Introductory Speech to give an Account of the Occasion of the Meeting , Henry Goldney , with some other Quakers of W. Pens Party , came with a Printed Paper , giving some Reasons why W. Pen and Geo. Whitehead did not appear , which he desired might be read . It was readily granted ; and the Reasons why W. Penn and G. Whitehead did not appear , were read by G. Keith . G. Keith . Now if ye think it has not been well read , let another read it , if you think fit ; And I offer to Answer to every one of the Reasons , if you desire it . The Auditory . No , it is needless . G. Keith . This is their design , to divert us in our Business . The Reasons are so slender , that I hope every Judicious Person here can answer them . If I am such an angry person as they represent me , I shall lay my self the more open , and they shall have the greater Advantage . You know well enough that they would be glad of any Advantage against me . And then for any Offence to Authority , as they suggest , I have the Lord Mayors leave ; and he has sent his Marshal to preserve the Peace , and therefore there can be nothing in that . Their Paper rather reflects upon Authority , the Authority of the Worthy Mayor of this Famous City ; to whom I went , as I thought it was my Duty , to desire leave for this Meeting ; which he thought fit to consent to , and has sent his Marshal to keep the Peace . And I would have you to take Notice now , that they , viz. W. P. and G. W. own those Books of Thomas Elwoods , &c. that are out against me , that I knew not before . I went to G. Whitehead , and desired to know whether he owned a former Book of Thomas Elwood writ against me : He said , he would neither own it , nor disown it . And this is enough at present to Answer this Paper . I hope in God , the Lord shall preserve me , which has been my Prayer on my Knees this Morning , and many other times , that I might give no occasion of Reproach to his Name or Truth , and that Religion may not be scandalized by any thing I shall speak or act ; and I hope my Prayers shall be answered . They say , I did not exhibit to them a Copy of my Charge against them , ( an Indictment they call it , they would represent me as a Man setting up a Spiritual Court ) but my Printed Paper sayes , W. Penn , and G. Whitehead , are justly desired to be present . This is no Indictment nor Summons , as they falsly call it : And for the particulars I intend to prove against them , they were expresly mentioned in my Printed Paper , called An Advertisement , containing Four Fundamental Doctrines of Christianity by them opposed . I desired W. Penn to make good his Charge against me , in a former Printed Paper , which was , That I was an Apostate and Impostour , endeavouring to pluck up the Testimony of Truth by the roots . This he said at a Meeting at Ratcliffe , above Fourteen Months ago , and while I was peaceably speaking in that Meeting he interrupts me , and like a Clap of Thunder falls on me in the midst of my Testimony , calls me , Aposta●e , &c. I desired him also at the Yearly Meeting of the Quakers at London held 1695. to make good his Charge , and I told him , If he refused , I would put him to prove it in the face of the Nation . He justified his calling me Apostate , saying , He was in no Passion , but he was so transported by the Glorious Power of God , that he knew not whether he was Standing , Sitting or Kneeling . And since I have in Print desired him to prove his Charge , and now at this Meeting ; but he declines to appear . Ye know the saying , Affirmanti incumbit probatio , He ought to prove what he has affirmed . Quaker . H. Goldnay . If those that thou didst summon , had appeared , I do not see thou hadst provided any convenient place for them . G. Keith . If your Friends had appeared , they might have had a place : There ( pointing to a Table and a Bench s●t on it , opposite to the place where he stood ) is a place provided for them : If you will fetch them , they shall have a place ; or they might have been here with me where I stand . Strangers that stood on the Table . If they come we will give place to them . Quakers . N. M. and H. G. We came here to give an account that our Friends think not fit to be here , and have given their Reasons for it . G. Keith . It is a strange thing that th●y cannot print a Paper , but must have so many Falsities in it . They call my Paper , a Summons and an Indictment , but I meant it not so . But to leave that , and come to our business The four things which I charge them to be guilty of , are these ; and I appeal to all moderate persons , whether my intimation of such a Meeting can be blamed , when it is to defend such Points as these : Faith in Christ as he outwardly suffered at Jerusalem to our Salvation . That is the First . Justification and Sanctification by the Blood of Christ outwardly shed . That is the Second . The Resurrection of the Body that dyeth . The Third . And Christs coming without us in his glorified Body , to judge the Quick and Dead . That is the Fourth . All which have been contradicted by some of them , as W. Penn , G. Whitehead , &c. though these are Fundamental Principles belonging to the common Faith , and are generally owned by Christians of all Professions . Now , if you please , I shall proceed to my Proofs Most of my business , whether they be here or not , is to read my Proofs out of their Books , that they are guilty of every one of these Four Errors opposing thereby Four Fundamental Truths . The first is , The necessity of Faith in Christ , as he outwardly suffered for us at Jerusalem . This is the first . But that this is opposed by them , I prove thus : The O●ject of Faith is opposed by them , and therefore the Faith it self must needs be opposed . I hope the consequence is clear enough , it needs no Proof . The Object of Christian Faith is Christ , both God and Man , and yet but one Christ . But so it is that I offer to prove , that G. Whitehead , and W. Penn by approving of G. Whiteheads Books , has denyed Christ both to be God and Man. This is the thing , which if I make out , I make out my first Point . And first I offer to prove that G. Whitehead in a Book of his has denyed Christ to be God , and W. Penn has owned this Book : The Book is called , Light and Life , recommended by William Penn in his Reason against Railing , p. 186. in Answer to W. Burnet , a Baptist Preacher , Printed , 1668. P. 47. Here he first brings in the Baptists words . Says the Baptist , Now as he was God , he was Co-Creator with the Father , and so was before Abraham ; and had Glory with God , before the World was , and in this sense came down from Heaven . Now here is G. Whiteheads reply , What Nonsense and Vnscriptural Language is this ? To tell of God being Co-Creator wi●h the Father , or that God had glory with God ? Does not this imply two Gods , and that God had a Father ? Let the Reader judge . I shall read the Baptists words again , and see if there be any thing in them offensive to Christian Ears . I hope there are not many here but understand what Co signifieth , it is with . Now see if the words of the Baptist are offensive to Christian Ears ; As he was God , he was Co-Creator with the Father . Ye know John saith , In the beginning was the word , and the word was with God , and the word was God , John 1.1 , 2. See also Prov. 8. 22,3● . If these words offend any , let them speak with all my Heart . Quaker . N. Mark. If I might , I desire to have liberty to speak , when was the date of the Book ? Auditors . If you will undertake their cause , you may speak , otherwise not . Quaker . Pray hear me . The Reason why I askt him the date of the Book , is because I believe it was a book antiently written ; and G. Keith did write in Vindication of our Principles , and now for him to appear in opposition to our Principles , it appears that he has apostatized from our Principles . G. Kei●h . Now let me Answer him I do say , if it were my last words , I know not that I ever read a line of this book till I came last to England , which is about Two Years . And if G. Whitehead be wiser since , it is very well : But then he should have retracted this . For this book , and some other books of his , has leavened the minds of many in America ; as well as here , with Poysonous Errors . Stranger A Quaker . Then George Keith ought to make a candid and full Retractation of what he has said contrary to Truth , before he appeared against them . G. Keith . I own I have been mistaken in these Men : But I hope this Auditory are sufficient Judges of that , that if they cannot prove me to hold any Doctrine contrary to my former Principles , nor any Unchristian Principle , and that they have nothing against me Conv●rsation , they ought not to call me an Apostate . I never heard that a Man was judged an Apostate for changing his Opinion of some Men , especially when he finds cause so to do . Quaker . You are fallen from your former Principles . G. Keith . If you prove me not to have changed in any Fundamental Principle , ye ought not to charge me to be an Apostate . I know not any Fundamental Principle , nor indeed any one Principle of the Christian Faith , that I have varied from to this day , ever since I came among the Quakers , which is about Thirty Three Years ago ; therefore I ought to be cleared of that Imputation . Quaker . H. G●ldne● , began to speak . G. Keith . Art thou deputed to Answer to what I have Charged them with ? Stranger . They have declined your Meeting , and yet several persons ( it seems ) are deputed by them to speak . Auditors . G. Keith , go on with your Charge . G. Kei●h . There is another passage in G. Whiteheads book wherein he denies the Divinity of Christ ; and he deceives the Nation and the Parliament , by telling them , They own Christ to be both God and Man , and believe all that is recorded of him in the Holy Scripture , and no wonder he has deceived me . In his pag. 24. Light and Life , he saith , To tell of the word God Co Creator with the Father , is all one as to tell of God being Co-Creator with God , if the Father be God , and this is to make two Gods , two Creators , &c. For God Co-Creator with the Father , implyes two . Ye see this is positive ; and he puts this Censure on the Baptists words , Thus Nonsense , Confusion and Blasphemy is heapt up against the Light within . Quaker . We tell you , that whereas G. Keith hath Printed several Books , they have Answered them from time to time ; and he has left two Books unanswered ; and whatever he will print to the contrary , we will defend our Principles . G. Keith . They have a Publick Stock , I have not ; they are able to raise some Thousands of Pounds sooner than G. Keith can raise an Hundred . [ Here some Noise being raised in the Meeting by some discontented persons . ] Auditors . Let there be a Moderator chosen . G. Keith . If there be any Offence , do not charge it on me . I desire you for the Honour of the Nation , and of the City of London , to be still . It is a Mob from Grace-church-street to make a disturbance . Then that passage in G. Whiteheads book was read again . See here the Son of God , his Eternal Generation is denyed . If he had a Father , then there are two Gods. And here is as plain a denying Christ to be God , as any Socinian can be guilty of . Quaker . Nat. Mark. The casual dropping of words is no proof . G. Keith . I have proved to you already he disowns Christ to be God. Now I will prove he has denyed him to be Man : And then there is that great Article of our Faith lost , and the Object of the Christian Faith denyed . Here is G. Whiteheads Answer to T. Dansons Synopsis of Quakerism , as he calls it , p. 18. This is in the book called , The Divinity of Christ asserted , ( recommended by W. Penn , Reason against Railing , p. 185. ) See how G. Whitehead takes him up , and how he banters him : If the Body and Soul of the Son of God were both created , doth not this render him a Fourth Person , &c. But the stress I lay is in the words following ; But herein whether doth not his and their ignorance of the only begotten of the Father plainly appear : Where doth the Scripture say , that his Soul was created ? For was not he the brightness of the Fathers glory , and the express Image of his Divine Substance ? But supposing the Soul of Christ was ( with the Body ) created in time , &c. Here ye see , he will not own that Christ had a Created Soul. Th. Danson , being a Presbyterian Minister did plead , That Christ as Man had a created Soul. This G. W. makes an inconsistency , as if he could not be God also . This was the Errour of Apollinarius , who said , Christ was without a Humane Soul , for he was the express Image of his Father . But supposing the Soul of Christ were created with the Body , &c. That which I would have you take notice of , is this , Where does the Scripture say his Soul was created ? Quaker . Waite . That was only a Question . G. Keith . Well , it was his way of Disputing , as is ordinary to him , and many others . An● such way of Questioning plainly imperteth a Denyal . Next I prove , that G. Whitehead says ▪ He has not the Body of a Man. And then I hope I shall have performed what I promised . See his Nature of Christianity , p. 29 , 41. Here I undertake to prove , that G. Whitehead denies that Christ in Heaven has any Bodily Existence without us . It he has said otherwise in any of his late Printed Books , I am glad of it . But let him retract these , for these have done much mischief . Now when I said he was Orthodox , I mean not as he was Heterodox : For there is a G. Whitehead Orthodox , and a G. Whitehead not Orthodox : I did not know G. Whitehead not Orthodox till lately . I do not say there are two persons in George Whitehead ; he is but one and the same person , ( in this and some other things ) Orthodox and not Orthodox , George Whitehead contradicting George Whitehead ; he is accountable for these Contradictions and not I. I own it , that I have cited divers passages out of his later books that are Orthodox to prove him sound ; but I did not then know , when I so cited him , that he was guilty of such gross Errors , as since I have found by a further search into his books . Let him retract his Errors , and well enjoy his Orthodoxy . Ye know contradictory Propositions cannot be both true . I shall read to you , p. 29 , 41. of his Nature of Christianity . ( This is posteriour to his former book ) . In Page 29. Or dost thou look for Christ , as the Son of Mary , to appear outwardly in a Bodily Existence to save thee , according to thy words , page 30. If thou dost , thou mayst look until thy E●es drop out , before thou wilt see such an appearance of him . This is but one place , that is , that Christ will not so appear . But why will he not so appear , but because he has no Bodily Existence without us . That I come now to prove ; for which I shall read to you in his pag. 41. And that he existeth outwardly , bodily , without us at God's right Hand : What Scripture Proof hath he for these Words ? And then what and where is God's right Hand ? Is it visibl● or invisible ? within us , or without us only ? And is Christ the Saviour , as an outward bodily Existence or Person without us , distinct from God , and on that Consideration to be worshipped as God , yea or nay ? And where doth the Scripture say he is outwardly and bodily glorified at God's right Hand ? Do these Days express the Glory that he had with the Father before the World began , in which he is now glorified ? And where doth the Scripture say ? And here is the thing that rivets . Where doth the Scripture say , that he is outwardly and bodily glorified at God's right Hand ? Do these Terms express the Glory that he had with the Father before the World began ? Now G. Whitehead's way of writing , is to question his Adversaries , which is the Socratical way of disputing and arguing against his Adversary . But let me go on . Again , see his Book called , Christ ascended above the Clouds . All that I have yet cited out of G. Whitehead's Book , Light and Life , and that of the Divinity of Christ , and Nature of Christianity , W. Penn has own'd them all in his Reasons against Railing , pag. 185 , 186. This Book was printed , ( and also this called Christ ascended above the Clouds ) Anno 1669. Now for the Page and Matter , p. 21 , 22. John Newman his Opponent's Words were from Rev. 1.7 . Those that pierced him in his Body of Flesh , shall see that Body visibly come again . G. W. answereth , These are not the Words of Scripture , but added , Altho to add or diminish be forbidden under a Penalty , Rev. 22.18 , 19. yet this Man's Presumption leads him to incur that ; — And Christ in the Days of his Flesh ( when he visibly appeared to the World ) said , Yet a little while and the World seeth me no more . Now again I shall read to you John Newman's Words which G. W. doth so much blame : From Rev. 1.7 . Those that pierced him in his Body of Flesh , shall see that Body visibly come again . Is there any thing here offensive ? Nothing but what is the declared Opinion of the Church of Rome , the Church of England , the Presbyterians , Independents , Baptists , and mine , all along , tho I have been a Quaker near about 34 Years . Quaker . Then it is much that in 34 Years thou shouldst not correct them before . G. Keith . This Assertion that G. Whitehead charges with Heresy , see how he answers it ; These are not the Words of Scripture , but added , altho to add or diminish be forbidden under a Penalty . Why , John Newman here only uses the word Body to his coming again , and G. Whitehead finds fault with that ; and G. W. brings a Proof from John 14.19 . Yet a little while and the World seeth me no more : that those that pierced Christ in his Body shall not see that Body visibly come again . Here is a Proof that Christ was evanished : The World shall see me no more . The Translation will not prove G. Whitehead's Position even as it is . But it may be better translated as yet , Yet a little while and the World shall not see me : As yet , the Greek being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet , i. e. nondum , or not as yet . Does this prove that Christ has no Body at all ? This is very bad Reasoning . Quaker . If the Translation be not good , why do you make use of it ? † G. Keith . I own it a good Translation , and Thanks be to God we have such a Translation ; ●et that in some Places it may be better translated , the Quakers themselves , as well as all 〈◊〉 Professions , do acknowledg , ( such as have a little Hebrew or Greek ) that is one 〈◊〉 there are two or three Places more . I will give you only a few of my Proofs , and 〈◊〉 rest to a further Opportunity . P. 24. says J. Newman , By denying any perso● 〈◊〉 ●●ing of Christ , without all Men , at the right Hand of God , but only a feigned 〈◊〉 within , then Remission of Sins must die , and Faith also , for want of the Object 〈◊〉 . This I look on to be good Doctrine . And if you deny that , ( G. K. turning 〈◊〉 to his Opponents , Henry Goldney and Nathaniel Marke , who spoke by turns , sometimes one , and sometimes another , and stood close by him in the Gallery , a Favour his Adversaries would scarce have allowed to him , in any such Dispute , at Grace-Church-street - Meeting-place , or elsewhere ) ye may speak ; to which they not replying , G. K. further said , I think this is a good Deduction . Now to this G. Whitehead answers , p. 29. ( I defend not J. Newman in all he owns , but so far as he holds the Truth : And if a Papist say the Truth against a Jew , I am ingaged to defend him in it ) This manner of excluding God's right Hand and Christ to a Limitation out of his People in a personal Being , which are no Scripture-terms , still implies him to be a personal God or Christ , like the Anthropomorphites and Muggletonians Conceits of him . And again , pag. 69. he saith : And these Words , Christ in Person remote in his Body of Flesh , &c. and not in any Man , are not Scripture , but added . What strange Conceits would J. N. put upon the unlimited God , like the old heretical Monks of Egypt , called Anthropomorphites . By these Words of G. W. all Papists , Church of England-men , Presbyterians , Independents , Baptists , who believe that the Man Christ has any bodily Existence in Heaven , as he thinks , are Anthropomorphites and Muggletonians . So you see all of you are Muggletonians as well as I. But mark the Words of John Newman above-mentioned , which are sound ; and I say , whoever under a Christian Profession deny Christ to have any personal or bodily Existence without us in Heaven , whatever Notion they may have of Christ within , it is but a feigned Christ within ; but who have the true Knowledg and Faith of Christ within , to wit , of his Spirit , Light and Grace within , that leads them to own and confess to the Man Christ without , as well as to his Spirit within . There is no Church-of - England-man , Presbyterian or Baptist , &c. that holds that Notion , that the Godhead has the Shape of a Man ; but the Manhood of Christ has the true Nature of Man. And what Shape Christ's Body has now , that I leave , but I believe he has the self-same Body in Heaven that he had on Earth ; the same I say for Substance and Essence of Body , tho wonderfully changed in Manner and Condition . Another Quaker . Then you reflect on an Act of Parliament which allows the Translation of the Scriptures , if they be not truly translated , [ Note , This Man's Impertinency and Prejudice , as if to say a Place of Scripture may be better translated , which all the Learned of all Professions of English Protestants do allow , were a Reflection on the Parliament : how earnest is this Man with other of his Brethren , to make the Innocent an Offender ? Is this your Christianity ? ] G. Keith . Here is a Book of G. Whitehead's , called , The He-goats Horn broken . I hope this Meeting will give Satisfaction to many ; and therefore that it may be profitable , I desire you to keep Silence . Quaker N. Mark. I have a Proposition to make . I would not interrupt , but I desire to be heard , if I may have leave . G. Keith . Will you ( speaking to them all four that spoke sometimes one and sometimes another ) take upon you to vindicate your Friends ? then you may say what you will. Quaker . George , I desire thy Leave to be heard . G. Keith . If you will but speak briefly . Quaker N. Mark. The Proposition is this : 1. I tell you I am here accidentally . 2. I observe that G. Keith takes the Liberty of putting his own Interpretation on the Passages of several Books ; and since G. K. has departed from the Quakers , he has taken on him to write several Books , which are extant ; and over and over he makes his Appeal to this Assembly ; which I desire you to consider how improper and impracticable it is to decide it here . Therefore what he purposed to urge here , if he will print it , and proceed no further in this Meeting , I will be at the Charge of whatever he shall print . G. Keith . I say , If he would lay me down five hundred Pounds , I would not break up this Meeting till it is over . Stranger . He will pay for it , i. e. N. Marks . G. Keith . But it is upon Terms . Quaker , Began to speak , [ thus they oft sought to interrupt him to divert the Proofs . ] G. Keith . Thou knowest thou art not so qualified to speak in this Auditory . Let me go on with my Proofs . I prove further , that G. Whitehead writing against one Jo. Horn , reflects on him scornfully , he calls his Book the He-goats Horn broken . Now see whether G. Whitehead has not broken his own Horn rather . It is a Shame , the Reflections they have made on Men sounder than themselves . Let me read the Words ; The He-goats Horn broken , or Innocency , &c. in answer to two Books against the Quakers , Printed , London , 1660. Now if I understand any thing of true Divinity or Theology , the Passage this Man or Men ( for there are two of them ) lays down here , is a sound Passage , which G. Whitehead contradicts . Now here is the Passage , and do you judg of it . And where we lay down this as Tho. Moor's Principle , That their Nature is restored in Christ , and that their Nature is a filthy Nature . This they say is falsly expressed and perverted , and yet J. H. and T. M. a little after say thus , viz. That our Nature , Kind or Being , as in us , not in Christ , is corrupt and filthy in it self ; yet Christ took upon him our Nature , not as it is filthy in us by Sin in it . And they say , That we might as well have taxed the Apostle of Confusion , for saying , Men by Nature do the things contained in the Law ; p. 11 , 12. Now here is G. Whitehead's Answer , We may justly tax these Men for Confusion indeed , but not the Apostle ; for here they cannot discern between the sinful Nature and the pure Nature , for the Nature of Christ is pure ; so that it 's not their Nature , for their Nature is filthy , and therefore it is not in Christ . Observe , Christ did not take upon him Jo. Horn's Nature . No , says he . As I have oft told G. Whitehead , that he and W. Penn will needs imbrace false Notions in Philosophy , they will needs seem to be Philosophers by Divine Inspiration , as well as Ministers and Preachers by it . But it is a sad thing , that their false Philosophy should destroy their Faith. Now here is a false Notion , that Christ could not take on him Man's Nature , except he took on him the Pollution of it . As if the Pollution of Sin were an essential Attribute of Man's Nature . Now Sin , if it be like Scarlet , is no more essential to the Nature of Man , than Filth to a Garment : for a Garment is the same Garment still , whether it be filthy or clean . Therefore I say , our blessed Lord might well take on him our Nature , and the Nature in us be sinful , and in him pure and holy . And Jo. Horn distinguishes so . Now judg ye whether G. Whitehead has broken Jo. Horn's Horn , yea or no ; or rather whether has he not broken his own Horn ? Thus I have done as to the Object of Faith , at present at least . Now I come to the Act of Faith , or the Vertue of Faith. See for the Proofs , William Penn his Quakerism , a new Nick-name for old Christianity , p. 12. Printed Anno 1672. This Book is without the Printer's Name , and most of W. Penn's Books are without it , tho they persecuted William Bradford in Philadelphia for printing some of my Books without putting his Name . Here is the Point , Jo. Faldo makes this Charge against the Quakers , p. 12. Christianity was introduced by preaching the promised Messiah , and pointing at his humane Person , but Quakerism by preaching a Light within . Now if I had this to answer , I would have said , Any Quakerism I know of , that I learned , was introduced into my Heart both by believing in Christ without , and in Christ within , ( at once , and by one Faith ) but instead of that he answers thus : I answer , That this is nothing injurious to the Quakers at all , but highly on their side , for had they preach'd a Christ now coming in the Flesh , they had dented his true and only great visible Appearance at Jerusalem , which all true Quak●rs own . Since t●en they believe that Appearance , but therefore need not preach wh●t is not to be again : And that the whole Christian World besides have so long a●d lazily depended on it , without their thirsting after his inward holy Appearance in the Conscience , &c. This is the thing I come to ; Since then they believe that Appearance , but therefore need not preach what is not to be again ; if every one of them believe there was such a Man that was born of a Virgin , and died for our Sins sixteen hundred Years ago , they therefore need not preach that he was so born , or that he died for our Sins , &c. Christ is not to be born again , is not to die again , &c. We need not preach it , but throw it over the Shoulder , and give it up and bury it in Oblivion from Posterity . Judg if this ●e not the true Consequence . Let them retract these Errors , and not say I am an Apostate for telling them of them : As I told G. Whitehead , there are Errors in thy Books as well as others , and either thou or I must correct them , and he was very angry with me . L●t them retract them , and not count me a Liar for telling them of them . But let me again r●ad out the entire Paragraph . Since then they believe that Appearance , but therefore need not preach what is not to be again . There it clinches , they need not preach what is not to be again * . Take notice also of his uncharitable dealing here ; if he had said many , it might have past . But he says the whole Christian World has lazily depended on it . Is there none in the Christian World but the Quakers , that thirst after the Power of God in their Souls ? I was never so uncharitable to think so . There is more yet , p. 6. The Distinction between Moral and Christian . The making holy Life legal , ( I know none that do so of any that are sincere in all the Professions in Christendon ) and Fa●th in the History of Christ's outward Manifestation , has been a deadly Poison these latter Ages have been infected with , to the Destruction of God●y Living , and apostatizing of those Churches , &c. Another Proof I bring against W. Penn is out of his Address to Protestants , p. 119. printed 1692. the second Edition corrected and enlarged : But this Passage remains in it however . I will begin a little before the main thing : For it seems , p. 118. a most unreasonable thing , that Faith in God , and in keeping his Commands should be no part of the Christian Religion : But if a part it be , as upon serious Reflection who dare deny it , then those before ●nd since Christ's time who never had the external Law , and have done the things contained in the Law , their Consciences not accusing , nor Hearts condemning , but excusing them before God , are in some degree concerned in the Character of a true Christian ; for Christ himself preached and kept his Father's Commandments , and came to fulfil and not destroy the Law , and that not only in his own Person , but that the Righteousness of the Law might also be fulfilled in us . Now comes the main thing . Let us but soberly consider what Christ is , and we shall the better know , whether Moral Men are to be reckon'd Christians . What is Christ but Meekness , Justice , Mercy , Patience Charity , and Vertue in Perfection ? Can we then deny a meek Man to be a Christian , a just , a merciful , a patient , a charitable and vertuous Man to be like Christ ? But in this way of arguing there is a Fallacy ; these Moral Vertues are a Part of a Christian , as Animal is a part of the Definition of a Man , and belong to the Genus of a Christian . But there are two things in the true Definition of a Man , the Genus and the Differentia : they have the Genus , but not the Differentia ; therefore it is true to say , every Man is an Animal ; but it is not true nor good Logick to say , every Animal is a Man. Let us but soberly consider ( saith William Penn ) what Christ is , what is Christ but Meekness , and Justice , and Mercy , and Patience ? And now take notice , ( I would not misconstrue what I have read ) by William Penn's Argument , a Man may be own'd to be a Christian , and yet disbelieve that Christ is either God or Man ; if he own or practise a Habit or Quality of Moral Vertue , as that of Justice , and Meekness , &c. and practise accordingly , tho he believe not in Christ , if he have but some Moral Habits : So that here the Jew is the Christian , the Mahometan is the Christian , the Pagan is the Christian , and the professed Pelagian is the Christian , tho they deny any inward supernatural Principle , and call the Light within only natural , as many sober and moral Men do ; why then have they so fiercely contended against such Men , denying them to be Christians , in whom as much of Mora●ity has appeared as in many of t●em ? But it is strange to heathenise all Christendom through , calling them the World , and christianise Heathens for their Morality . See again the Christian Quaker , p. 125 , 126 , 127. let me but recommend it to you to read the Book . This Christian Quaker it is a Folio Book , he bestows about three Pages to define what a Christian Quaker is . In all this large De●●nition , not one word of the Man Christ ( who is God over all blessed for ever ) to be the Object , either of this Christian Quaker's Faith , Love or Homage : it is too large to reci●e , but I recommend it to you to read it , and shall go to the next . Again , see the Preface to R. Barclay's great Volume , p. 36. where he makes the Work of Regeneration greater than the Manifestation of the Son of God in the Flesh . R. Barclay is my Country-man , I will not be partial to him on that account ; but I do not now blame any thing in his Book , I know he is the soundest Writer among them . But the thing I blame , is a Preface supposed to be writ by W. Penn , and , however , commended by G. Whitehead and some others : By the Stile it is thought to be W. Penn's , and it commonly goes under his Name . These are the Words : O Reader ! great is the Mystery of Godliness ! And if the Apostle said it of the Manifestation of the Son of God in t●e Flesh , if that be a Mystery , ( and if a Mystery , it is not to be spelt out but by the Revelation of the Spirit ) how much more is the Work of Regeneration a Mystery , that is wholly inward and spiritual in its Operation ? Who is sufficient for these things ? Now pray take notice , that I tell you , I cast no Reflection on R. Barclay , I blame nothing at present in his Books , tho there may be things both in his Books and mine that may need Correction . If there be any Reflection on him , it is chiefly this , that such an unsound Preface should be put to his Book , for I can sufficiently prove , that R. Barclay's Doctrine is plainly Antipodes to this Doctrine * . O Reader , great is the Mystery of Godliness ; for which is cited 1 Tim. 3.16 . Great is the M●stery of Godliness , God manifest in the Flesh , &c. which all Christendom judg to be God manifest in Christ's outward Body of Flesh , and but consequentially of his Spirit and Grace in Men and I think it 's the greatest Mystery next to that of the Holy Three in One , and One in Three ; the Manifestation of the Son of God in that Body of Flesh is next to that . Now you see how he makes Regeneration in a Believer a greater Mystery than the Manifestation of the Son of God in his Body of Flesh ; How much more , saith he , is the Work of Regeneration a Mystery ? For the other here , 1 Tim. 3. ●6 . he does not say it is a Mystery , but he puts three ifs to it , If a M●stery , &c. Pray was our blessed Lord a mere Shell ? Was he like the Shell of an Egg without the Meat of an Egg ? or was he like the Shell of any Fruit , and no Kernel in it ? Was there any Holiness ever in any Prophet or Apostle , but it is like a Drop to the Ocean to what was in ●ur blessed Lord ? Therefore to compare the Work of Regeneration to the Incarnation of our Lord , so as to equal it , ( he prefers it , and does not equal it only ) I appeal to you , whether is it not a most abominable Error , and whether it doth not make every regenerate Man not only equal to the Man Christ , but greater ; for we truly value any Man as more holy , according as the Manifestation of God is more in one Man than in another . It is not enough , to say , he has unadvisedly dropt this Doctrine , but it is his main Aim in divers of his Books : See W. Penn's Rejoinder , p. 330 , 337 , 340. where he makes Christ in the Gentiles a greater Mystery than Christ incarnate , p. 335. J. Faldo is now in his Grave ; and I confess I never thought I should be raised up to vindicate J. Faldo . I cannot say I ever read the fourth Part of this Book of W. Penn's called his Rejoinder , till within this two Twelve months . But if J. Faldo speak Truth against my Father , I must defend him against my Father . Hear what J. Faldo says , p. 100 , 101. For Christ to be in the Gentiles , rightly understood , would be no hard Matter for the Gentiles to believe , as to believe such a Glory to be attain'd by Faith in , and Obedience to the Laws of a Man , who died as a Malefactor , and that this Death of his should reconcile God to Man , with the Addition of such a Purchase To this W. Penn answereth , This sort of Doctrine will becometh John Faldo , I perceive I have not mistaken him . What Carnalist in the World could have let drop a more perricious Sentence to the Doctrine and Kingdom of Christ , than to render it more difficult to believe , and lay a greater stress upon the external than the internal Work of Christ ? we must read the most weighty Scriptures backwards upon this Man's Principles , he hath helped us to a new way of rendring the Text ; not this Mystery among the Gentiles is Christ in you the Hope of Glory , but this Mystery among the G●n●il●s is a Man who died as a Malefactor , by his Death reconciled to God , &c. Behold your Expositor ! I dare warrant this Man's Comment will never trouble the next Collection of Criticks . At this rate the Lord , Lord Criar is highly privileged , and the Galatians had passed the most difficult Birth before they had known Christ to be formed in them . Regeneration is a slight thing in comparison of the Knowledg of Christ after the Flesh . This Doctrine brings not Men to Christ in them the Hope of Glory , but inticeth them into the vain Hope of the Hypocrisy which perisheth : the History is made the greatest Mystery ; and to believe the one , matter of greater Difficulty than to experience the other . — 'T is strange that should be reputed most mysterious which was the Introduction to the Mystery , and those Transactions counted most difficult that were by the Divine Wisdom of God ordained as so many facile Representations of what was to be accomplished in Man. In short , it is to lessen if not totally to exclude the true Mystery of Godliness which is Christ manifested in his Children , their Hope of Glory . We had wont to say , All other Professions denied Christ within but here J. Faldo owns Christ to be in the Gentiles rightly understood . But to me Christ crucified , in whom the Fulness dwell th , is a greater Mystery , and a greater Matter to be believed . I can shew many of the Philosophers that owned the Light within , under the Denomination of the Word , Light , Spirit , &c. yet it was so hard for them to believe that a Man that was crucified as a Malefactor should die for their Sins . Yea Julian the Apostate , and Porphirius , professed and owned a Divine Principle within , [ as generally the Platonist Philosophers did , and Aristotle also ] but Christ crucified they could not away with . And now it is a Stumbling-block to these Quakers . This sort of Doctrine well becomes J. Faldo . See how he hanters him . W. Penn thinks it is a Matter of little or no Difficulty to believe God sent Christ to die for Sinners , and to reconcile God to Men by his Death . But Christ told the Jews , This is the Work of God , John 6.29 . that ye believe on him whom he hath sent And surely that was the Man Christ Jesus . And he said also , No Man can come unto me , ex●ept the Father which hath sent me draw him , John 6.44 . And every one that has heard and learned ●f the Father comes to me , ver . 45. Now to come to him is the same as to believe in him with a true saving Faith. So that it is plain , he teaches the Jews that they cannot believe in Christ ( that appear●d outwardly among them ) whom God has sent , but as they are taught of God and drawn of him . And yet W. Penn makes it inseriour to Reg●neration , as you may see by his Words : [ Whereas true saving Faith in Christ crucified , who died as a Malefactor , to reconcile us to God , is a great and principal Part of Regeneration , and is as great a Work of God , as to make us believe Christ's inward Appearance in us ] . But says William Penn , " Behold your Expositor ! I dare warrant this Man's Comment will never trouble the next " Collection of Criticks , &c. A rare way to refute him , to banter him at this rate . Now I will give you my Sense . I do not reckon J. Faldo was so ignorant a Man , that he believed a Man could be a Christian only with a traditional Knowledg or Faith of Christ without him . But tho Regeneration is no slight thing , yet I say , comparing Christ's Incarnation , that is a Complex of Mysteries , ( a certain Writer ‖ shews a Complex of twenty and more Mysteries in that one Mystery of Christ's Incarnation ) I say , comparing that with the Work of Regeneration , I do affirm the Work of Regeneration is a light thing , tho not light in it self . Therefore this of W. Penn is but a mere Banter . There is none of all the Church-of - England-men , or Independents , or Presbyterians , say the mere historical , literal , traditional Faith of Christ will save any . But the Matter is , there is a saving Faith of Christ without us ; and Christ without us as he is both God and Man , the Emanuel , as well as his inward Appearance in us , is the Object of saving Faith ; but these Men would not own it . I desire you well to mark and consider the several Passages in this whole Paragraph of William Penn's Rejoinder , what gross and absurd things it contains . He saith , This Doctrine brings not Men to Christ in them the Hope of Glory , but inticeth them into the vain Hope of the Hypocrite which perisheth . Yea see how he makes it the vain Hope of the Hypocrite to believe that Christ without is a greater Mystery than Christ within ; that 's History , this is Mystery , according to him . Now I have some other principal Proofs yet remaining about this gross Error of W. Penn. I shall read to you in his Christian Quaker , a Passage , p 97 , 98. printed Anno 1674. but the Printer's Name is not to it . To conclude , as Abraham outward and natural , was the great Father of the Jews , whose Seed God promised to bless with Earthly Blessings , as Canaan , &c. and that they were figurative of the one Seed Christ , and such as he should beget unto a lively Hope through the Power of his Spiritual Resurrection ; it will consequently follow , that this Seed must be inward and spiritual , since one outward thing cannot be the proper Figure or Representation of another , nor is it the way of holy Scripture so to teach us . The outward Lamb shews forth the inward Lamb ; the Jew outward , the Jew inward . As God attended the one with many singu●ar outward Mercies ( to say no more ) above other Nations ; so the Jew in Spirit doth he benefit above all other People . I have these two short Arguments to prove what I believe and assert as to the Spirituality of the true Seed , and a clearer Overthrow it is to the Opinion of our Adversaries to the true Christ . First , Every thing begets its like ; what is simply natural produces not a spiritual Being ; material things bring not forth things that are immaterial . Now because the Nature , or Image begotten in the Hearts of true Believers , is spiritual , it will follow , if the Seed which so begets , and brings forth that Birth , must be the same in nature with that which is begotten , therefore spiritual ; then Christ's Body , or what he had from the Virgin , strictly considered as such , was not the Seed . Secondly , It is clear from hence , the Serpent is a Spirit : Now nothing can bruise the Head of the Serpent , but something that is so internal and spiritual as the Serpent is . But if that Body of Christ were the Seed , then could he not bruise the Serpent's Head in all , because the Body of Christ is not so much as in any one , and consequently the Seed of the Promise is an holy and spiritual Principle of Light , Life and Power , that being received into the Heart , bruiseth the Serpent's Head : And because the Seed , which cannot be that Body , is Christ , as testify the Scriptures , the Seed is one , and that Seed Christ , and Christ God over all , blessed for ever . We do conclude , and that most truly , that Christ was and is the Divine Word of Light and Life , that was in the Beginning with God , and was and is God over all , blessed for ever . W. Penn will needs have this to be not Christ without but Christ within . And you see his Arguments . So the Paschal Lamb was no Figure of Christ without . And when John said , Behold the Lamb of God! it was meant of Christ within us , not of Christ without us , for our Passover is slain for us . You see , according to W. Penn , that Passover that was slain for us , was slain in us , not without us : And so they throw away our Arguments against the Jews : the Jews may plead the Messiah is not yet come . [ The Light within is owned by the Jews , and their Rabbies speak highly of it , yea , they call it a Ray or Beam of the Heavenly Adam ; and by way of Allegory , his Flesh and Blood , as I can plainly prove out of their Writings . And if the Types and Prophecies of the Old Testament mean only the Light within , by the one Seed that was promised , and held forth under these Types , how shall we convince them that the Messiah is come ? and that because he is come , these Types , Figures and Shadows of the Law are abolished . ] W. Penn saith , Then Christ's Body he had from the Virgin , strictly considered as such , was not the Seed . This is rare Logick . Here is a Fallacy , but I believe it proceeds not from any Design , but from his Weakness in Logick . You know there should be no Term nor Thing of Importance in the Conclusion of any Syllogism or Argument , but what should be in the Premises ; but strictly considered is not in the Premises , therefore it should not be in the Conclusion . No Man says , the Body of Christ strictly considered without the Soul of Christ is Christ , or that either the Soul and Body of Christ strictly considered , without the Godhead , is the Christ . Therefore he fights against a Man of Straw . But the Sense of his Argument is , that his B●dy was no Part of him . The one Seed cannot be an outward thing , this ye see is universal and exclusive of any outward thing ; for says W. Penn , one outward Thing cannot be the proper Figure or Representation of another . — Again , Nothing ( saith he ) can bruise the Head of the Serpent but something that is also internal and spiritual , ‖ as the Serpent is . And whereas W. Penn saith , The Body of Christ is not so much as in any one ; this contradicts his Brother John Whitehead , that says , He denieth that Christ hath a Body out of every Man on Earth . Here is their Contradiction , and yet they both pretend to be infallible . But see what a Sorites is here , saith W. Penn : The Seed is one , and that Seed Christ , and Christ God over all , blessed for ever . We do conclude , and that most truly , that Christ was and is the divine Word of Light and Life that was in the Beginning with God , and was and is God over all , blessed for ever . Thus you see he makes the promised Seed to be nothing but an inward Principle , God over all , &c. But I think it is not true , to say , The Seed of God in Men is God ; I judg it is unsound Doctrine , and contradicts R. B. who calleth that inward Seed , Vehiculum Dei , the Vehicle of God. But to say , Christ is only God , and not Man without us , as W. Penn's way of arguing imports , is most false Doctrine , and is as great and dangerous an Extream as to say , Christ is only Man and not God. But the true Christian Doctrine is , that Christ is both God and Man , and yet one Christ . I have done at present with my first Head. Quaker N. M. Then you will admit of a short Appeal . I appeal to the Persons here met , presuming upon their Generosity and Temper , how unfair it is for him to make his Illustrations and Aggravations of these Matters , and to how great Difficulty he exposes those Persons he treats of . I think what he says to you is inconsistent with Christian Principles , should be read by another Person : for many things are explanatory of one another , &c. Qua. Henry Goldney also blamed his reading , that what made against him he read low , but what he thought made for him he read high . G. Keith . If any of you scruple my reading , if you desire it , another shall read : Only there is this Inconvenience , I have not the Places so well marked on the Margin that another can so readily find them as my self . But if I wrong the Quotations , it will appear in Print , for we intend that the Quotations shall be printed . Stranger . Let him overlook you , if he thinks you do not read right . Quaker N. M. I think he does not read false . G. Keith . The second Head is Justification and Sanctification by the Blood of Christ outwardly shed , which is opposed by William Penn , G. Whitehead , and others . For this I shall bring my Proofs . Reason against Railing , by W. Penn , pag. 91. And forgive us our D●bts , as we forgive our Debtors . Says W. Penn , Where nothing can be more obvious , than that which is forgiven , is not paid ; and if it is our Duty to forgive without a Satisfaction received , and that God is to forgive us , as we forgive them , then is a Satisfaction Totally excluded . I confess I was surprized with this word , Totally excluded . Satisfaction is not the strict Solution of a Debt in all Respects and Circumstance . When we consider the Dignity of our Lord , that was both God and Man ; his Sufferings , ( suppose they were not the Thousand Part of what the Damned suffer ) yet it was a true Satisfaction : Therefore I was scandalized with these words . An Hundred Years ago the Church of England has very well answered this fallacious Argument of W. Penn's , that is , the same with the Socinians , in her Homily on Salvation , the First Part. And here he gives Nine Arguments to prove that the Notion of Christ's Satisfaction for Sin brings with it Nine irrational Consequences and Irreligious : But they are so weak and insignificant , that it were but loss of time , to mention them here , or answer them . Only give me leave to add , These very Persons , G. Whitehead and W. Penn , after they have thrust out of Doors by their false Logick , Christ's Satisfaction without us ; they own that Christ in us (a) offereth up himself a Sacrifice , to appease the wrath of God. Now , if free forgiveness exclude the Satisfaction of Christ without us , by W. Penn's Argument , by the same it does as much exclude his Satisfaction within us ; pray mark that . Now you have heard a Proof from W. Penn , let me come to Geo. Whitehead again . You shall have here a rare Dish of Divinity , not that I would provoke any to Lightness . But I have read many Books in my time , but I never read such a Book ( except the Ranters ) in my Life ; Popery is Orthodoxy to it . No Popish Priest will Argue as he has done , G. Whitehead's Light and Life , pag. 8. He blames here W. Burnet , for saying , The Blood shed upon the Cross sprinkles the Conscience , Sanctifies , Justifies , Redeems us . Now here is G. Whitehead's Censure of him . Observe here a two-fold stress is laid upon that Blood ; 1. Merit , to Salvation ; 2. Work , to Sanctification : And so he hath set it up above God , for God could not save , he saith . Observ . To say , That Christ's Blood merits Salvation , is to set it up above God ; for God could not save , he saith . Now , he wrongs W. Burnet : I know not the Man , his words are these , which some where or other I have noted . W. Burnet says , Christ as God , without being Man , he could not save . (b) But I wholly wave that Dispute ; I think it is above man's Capacity , whether Antecedently to God's purpose , he could have saved us without the Death of his own dear Son. But God having so ordained it , consequentially to his purpose , it may be as safely and truly said , as when the Scripture saith , God cannot lye . Is it any Reflection to say , God cannot lye , and that he cannot contradict his purpose ? And the Scripture says , God has not appointed us to wrath , but to obtain Salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ ; I hope then he cannot save us without the Man Christ , because he has said , he will not ; and the Man Christ is a Joynt-Saviour with God the Father . Again , pag. 38. G. W. brings the words of W. Burnet thus . Bapt. Now the Quakers would be so far from directing Men to go to the Material Temple at Jerusalem , that they make it but a vain thing to look to Jerusalem , to the Antitype of that Temple , viz. to Jesus Christ , as he was there crucified ; or to that Blood , that was there shed for Justification , p. 24. Now see the Answer , The Quakers see no need of directing Men to the Type for the Antitype , neither to the outward Temple , nor yet to Jerusalem , either to Jesus Christ , or his Blood , knowing that neither the Righteousness of Faith , nor the word of it doth so direct , Rom. 10. And is it the Baptists Doctrine to direct Men to the Material Temple , and Jerusalem , the Type for the Antitype ? What (c) Nonsense and Darkness is this ? And where do the Scriptures say , the Blood was there shed for Justification , and that Men must be directed to Jerusalem to it ? It may be questioned whether there may not be some need to expound the Types , as directing to Christ , though not to pract●ce them . But let that pass . Now he says , it is contrary to Rom. 10. to direct People to Jesus Christ as he was crucified at Jerusalem . But let the Bible be Judge . He has not cited the Verse , but the Verses he aims at I shall read ; Ver. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. For Moses describeth the Righteousness which is of the Law , that the man which doeth those things , shall live by them , &c. See Verses 6 , 7.8 . Now , in their Preachments they have used to stop there , and go no further . But read the 9th . Verse , If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus , and shalt believe in thine heart , that God hath raised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved . And where was it that God raised Christ from the Dead ? Was it not at Jerusalem ? And there he died , where he rose . And Christ , when he took the Cup , said , Drink ye all of it , this is the New Testament in my Blood , shed for many for the remission of sins . And I believe he meant his Blood shed , was the outward Blood of his Body . Stranger . Read the words again . Which G. Keith did . G. Keith . You see G. Whitehead has falsified the Scriptures , and made them to say what they say not ; as if to direct to Jesus Christ as he was crucified at Jerusalem , and to his Blood that was there shed , were contrary to Rom. 10. whereas it is plainly according to Rom. 10. 9,10 . Quaker . It may be , something following may explain it ; read on . Which G. Keith did . Light and Life , pag. 39. ( Whereas that Blood shed is not in being pag. 40 ) But the true Apostle directed them to the Light ( which is so much opposed by the Baptists ) to walk in the Light , for the Blood of Jesus to cleanse them from all sin , 1 John 1. And he died for our sins , but rose again for our justification ; which Resurrection surely was after the shedding the blood outwardly . G. Keith . Neither W. Burnet , nor no Baptist , place the all and whole of our Justification on Christ's outward Sufferings , and shedding his blood . For I say with them , and all Christendom , That if Christ had died , and not risen again , he could not have been an Atonement for our sins : Therefore both his Death and Resurrection are concerned in our Justification . Give me leave to tell you one Passage . The. Ellwood thinks to put a trick on the Reader , and says , it is wrong Printed , and that it should have been for , instead of to ; and he charges some Typographical Errors in my Books on me . He says , it was corrected in his Copy with a Pen ; bu● he does not say , G. Whitehead mended it . He says , it should be thus read , Either for Jesus Chris● , or his Blood. He thinks that will so turn it , that it mends the matter , but it mends it nothing at all . And G. Whitehead has it , to , to , to , several times , ( See pag. 38 , 39. Where do the Scriptures say , saith G. W. ) the blood was there shed for Justification , and that Men must be directed to Jerusalem to it ? Again , in pag. 61. Light and Life , he saith , Another while People must seek their Saviour above the Clouds and Firmament , contrary to the Righteousness of Faith , Rom. 10.6 . Another while they must look to Jerusalem for Justification to the blood that was there shed , contrary to Deut. 30.13 , 14. and Rom. 10. Is not this abominab●e Perversion of Scripture , to confirm his Antichristian Doctrine ? Light and Life , pag. 61. What Confusion what a Labyrinth and Uncertainty is he in , and does he bring his Hearers into ( saith G. Whitehead of Will. Burnet ) because , according to Scripture , he asserts , that Men must be directed to Christ for Justification and Salvation , both as he suffered at Jerusalem , and as he rose again , and is ascended into Heaven , above the Clouds and Firmament . Next , you shall hear Solomon Eccles's Letter , That the blood of Christ is no more than the blood of another Saint . Quaker N. M. I beg a Favour . Here are several things urged as false Doctrine , which refer to several places of Scripture , which Scriptures ought also to be read . G. Keith . They have been read , except Deut. 30. Rom. 10. is a repetition of Deut. 30. This is only to prolong time , and hinder me to proceed in my Proofs . But if the Auditory please , I will read both Deut. 30. and Rom. 10. Auditory . There is no need , go on and read Solomon Eccles's Letter . G. Keith . Before I read the Letter , let me read these Lines , in G. Whitehead his Light and Life , pag. 8. W. B. ( saith he ) tells of looking to Jerusalem , to Jesus Christ , as he was there crucified , or to that blood that was there shed for Justification , Contradiction . That Christ , that restoreth man's loss , is both to be sought and found in Heaven , &c. but in contradiction to both , the Reception of the Spirit the only means , the gift of Christ to us , and his being revealed in us by his Spirit . Here you see G. Whitehead makes it a Contradiction , that we must look to Christ as he died at Jerusalem , and as he is now in Heaven . Judge ye if this be a Contradiction ; but in Contradiction to both , he saith , it is a Contradiction to direct to Christ our Saviour , as he died at Jerusalem ; and that Christ that saveth us , is revealed within us by his Spirit . Now the Letter , which G. Whitehead does own , it is a Letter of Solomon Eccles , it is this : Robert Porter . TAKE heed of belying the Innocent ; for I hear that thou hast reported to a Friend of mine , that I should say , That the Blood of Christ is no more than the Blood of another Man. I never spake it , but do very highly esteem of the Blood of Christ , to be more Excellent , and Living , and Holy , and Precious than is able to be uttered by the Tongues of Men and Angels : I mean the Blood which was offered up in the Eternal Spirit , Heb. 9.14 . But the Blood that was forced out of him by the Soldiers , after he was dead , who before that , bowed his Head to the Father , and gave up the Ghost ; but thou sayest , that was the Blood of the New-Covenant , which was shed after he was dead , which I do deny ; yet I did say , That was no more than the Blood of another Saint . These were my Words , which thou art wresting to thy own Destruction . And for the other Lye that thou chargest me withal , that I should say , That the Blood of Christ should fall to the Ground within a twelfth Month , it is false , and never was spoke by me : But I did say , That the Baptists , and Independants , and Presbyterians , and Pope , are all of one Ground , and none of you understand the Blood of Jesus Christ no more than a brute Beast ; therefore repent , for God will suddenly overthrow your Faith , and your imputative Righteousness too , for the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness which he did at Jerusalem , and without the Gates , the Pope , the Episcopal , the Presbyterian , Independants and Baptists , shall fare all alike , and shall sit down in Sorrow , short of the Eternal Rest : But the true imputative Righteousness of Christ we own ; but it is hid from you all , till the Lord do open an Eye within you . Stranger . Who Printed that Letter ? G. Keith . W. Burnet , the Baptist Preacher . Have you any Testimony of their owning that Letter ? T. Slaughter . I can answer to the Letter . G. Keith . It may be thou art the Man. T. Slaughter . I am not the Man , but I have had a Copy of the Letter . It was writ to one Porter at Whe●stone , and the Letter is true . Auditors . Pray , Sir , where do you live , and what is your Name ? T. Slaughter . My Name is Thomas Slaughter , I live at Darking , I have a Son that is a Tallow Chandler that lives in Bow-Lane , where you may have an Account of me . G. Keith . George Whitehead doth not question the Letter to be true , but defends it , and as much opposeth Justification by the outward or material Blood of Christ , as Solomon Eccles doth . Here is a weighty Passage , George Whitehead says in his Book , Light and Life , which T. Ellwood transcribes and vindicates , T. Ellwood represents G. Whitehead . And this is one of the Books , they say ( in their printed Paper they have sent and read at this Meeting ) I have not answered . And this is G. Whitehead in Effigie . I had charged G. Whitehead for saying , That Christ's material Blood , shed at Jerusalem , was but a Type of the Blood we were justified by . T. Ellwood finds fault with me for this . And you shall see T. Ellwood's Vindication , and how far G. VVhitehead has owned or disowned S. Eccles's Letter . All things under the Law , ( says VV. Burner ) in the Type , was purged with Blood , and this Blood was material Blood and not mystical ; and that Blood that Christ shed in order to the effecting the Salvation of Man , must needs be visible and material Blood. These are VV. Burnet's Words . Now G. VVhitehead says , Baptist . All things under the Law , in the Type was purged with Blood , and this Blood was material Blood , and not mystical , and that Blood that Christ shed , in order to the effecting the Salvation of Man , must needs be material and visible Blood. Answ. Do but mark here what sad Consequence he has drawn , as if one should Reason , that because the Type was material , visible , and not mystical , therefore the Antitype or Substance must needs be material , and not mystical . By this all Mysteries or Divine things are excluded from being either Spiritual , Antitype , or Substance ; whereas it was the Heavenly things themselves , that are in Christ , in which consists the Substance and End of Types and Shadows . But to say , that material Blood was a Type of that which was material , this is to give the Substance no Preheminence above the Type ( especially if neither of them be mystical nor in being ) or like as if one should say , one Type was a Type of another . Whereas both the Heavenly , and more perfect Tabernacle and Altar , with the Heavenly things , are all a Mystery , and Spiritual , the Offering and Living Sacrifices are Spiritual , the Passover Spiritual , the Seed Spiritual , the Bread , the Fruit of the Vine Spiritual , the Oyl , the Flesh , and the Blood , which give Life to the Soul , yea , the Water and Blood , which washeth and sprinkleth the Conscience , are all Spiritual and Mysterious , as the New Covenant it self is , which they belong to , and these things known in . And this is the new and living way , which Christ set open , through the Veil of his Flesh , Heb. 10. Let them receive this who can . Note , By G. Whitehead's Argument , as the New Covenant is Spiritual and inward , and not outward , so the Blood of the New Covenant is inward and not outward ; so the Passover is inward , which is Christ the Mediator , and not outward ; this is a plain denyal of the Man Christ without us to be our Mediator , our Passover , Offering , or his Flesh and Blood without us to be concerned in our Salvation otherwise than as the Type . That Christ's Flesh is called the Veil , is not to be understood like the Typical Veils , Figures , and Shadows , but hath a far greater and profound sense and consideration . But mark , W. Burnet does not express it universally , but in this particular Case : And G. Whitehead extends it to an Universal ; as if all the Types of the Old Testament signified nothing Internally and Spiritually . But VV. Burnet saith no such thing , though he justly contends that the material Blood of the Beasts that were offered , was a Type of the material Blood of Christ that was outwardly shed ; yet many of the Types signified the internal and spiritual Gifts and Graces that true Believers have by Christ . Now here I clinch the matter : G. Whitehead says , But to say material Blood was a Type of that which was material ; this is to give the Substance no preeminence above the Type ( especially if neither of them be mystical , nor in being ) or like as if one should say , one Type was a Type of another . Now the Argument lies here ; If the Sacriffces under the Law were Types of Christ's Blood then that Blood must not be outward Blood , but inward , to wit , the Light and Life in Men ; but this is a false Consequence of G. Whitehead , and sheweth , that he denieth Remission of Sin , and Justification by the Blood of Christ outwardly shed . And this whole Passage of G. Whitehead , his Advocate T. Ellwood doth defend in his Book called Truth Defended , which is one of the two they say I have not answered . Now as to the Letter , we go on to what T. Elwood says . He is so unfair , he will have it , that G. Whitehead owns , that the material B●ood of Christ is that by which we are justified . But here is the Trick , G. Whitehead makes a typical Offering of Christ , and an anti-typical ; the typical was the Offering of Christ at Jerusalem , the anti-typical is the Offering of Christ within . See here then their Answer : It was queried , whether they owned that we are by the Blood of Christ outwardly shed , justified ; or that the Blood that was outwardly shed , did belong to the Sacrifice ? G. Whitehead has since of late answered : Yea , here they have sought to blind all the World ; Christ , as he outwardly suffered was a Sacrifice , but a typical Sacrifice . Therefore the next Question to be put , must be , Whether he was the anti-typical Sacr●fice ? Now see what G. Whitehead hath said to the Letter of Solomon Eccles , to blame or censure it . I can find nothing at all . He does not own that Solomon Eccles's Expression was an Article of their Faith , but does he disown it ? Nay , a man may not own a thing to be an Article of his Faith , and yet not disown it . If G. Whitehead had had the true Faith in Christ crucified , and had the true Value of Christ's Blood , outwardly shed , he would have very severely and sharply blamed and censured Solomon Eccles's Letter as blasphemous , but I find not that he censured it all . He tells you in what Sence he owns it , viz. That Blood had a peculiar Significat●on ; I told him , so had the Blood of Beasts a peculiar Signification , for their Blood signified Remission of Sin , but was no satisfactory Offering for Sin : And if Christ's Blood outwardly shed was a Type , as G. Whitehead affirms it was , then he confirms Solomon Eccles's false Doctrine , and makes it no more than the Blood of the Beasts that were offered . But saith T. Ellwood , He does own that the Blood of Christ is more than the Blood of another Saint ; but what B●ood ? the Blood of Christ within , there is the Trick . Is not this enough to cheat all the World ? They have a double Meaning as (d) Arius had . They say they own the Blood of Christ , and every other thing said of him according to the Scripture ; so said the Arians and Macedonians , when at other times they discovered their Meaning to be quite contrary to Scripture . Quaker . N. M. I offer a Word in Vindication , which is this : I am here an accidental Man , as you are . What I would offer is this . 1. I acknowledge the Favour you give me leave to speak . Next , this little Tumult gives me Occasion to let you know that the principal Reason of the Persons not being here , that were challenged , was that Confusion and Disorder that would be the Consequence . G. Keith . Who makes it ? Quaker . N. M. There are not fifteen of us here , (e) therefore we take care not to be parties to it . The Persons challenged I do respect ; I know their own Ability , I think my self not capable to speak in their behalf . What I wou●d say , is to the Letter . The Letter you are to understand , is the Effect of a Dispute between two Persons . Though this Letter was writ by one that had Conversation with us , yet I think we are not intitled to what is in it . But if G. Whitehead hath writ in Vindication of it , it affects us as a People : And whatever we publish as a People , we are so far affected with it . But this Letter was writ by the Hand of a particular Man , whose Conversation among us I think not fit to answer for . G. Keith . He was an Eminent Preacher among them . Quaker . He says , G. Whitehead has vindicated this Letter ; now I observe G. Whitehead finds fault with the Letter . G. K●ith . Here he makes G. Whitehead the Representative and Metropolitan of the Quakers , saying , what G. W. writes , affects them as a People . I am a Quaker still , though I glory not in any Name , but that I may be accounted a true Christian . But he says , if G. Whitehead has justified the Letter , it is imputable to the Body . What is this , but to make G. Whitehead the Metropo●itan ? And I protest against it . I have so much Charity and Knowledge of many of the Quakers , that I believe there are Thousands will not own that Letter , though G. Whitehead does . He says , if G. Whitehead justifies that Lett●r , the whole Body is understood to justifie it . Now , I see not one Syllable wherein G. Whitehead blames it : And he that does not testifie against a thing , when he has just occasion for it , justifies it . But hear what G. Whitehead saith , pag. 58. Light and Life . Now , to these words , viz. No more than the Blood of another Saint , his intent was , saith G. Whitehead , as to Papists and you , whose minds are carnal , &c. This never was my Quakerism . For my belief all along , was , that Papists , and Baptists , and all , have a Benefit by Christ's Death . Now it is come to this , That the Blood of Christ is no more to Papists and Baptists , than the Blood of another Saint . His next Defence of S. Eccles's Letter is , That it was no more simply as to the matter of Blood. Then they may [ with Reverence be it spoken ] as it was reported some have said , say , it is no more than the Blood of a Thief , simply as to the matter of Blood ; but it may be affirmed , that simply considered , it was more than the Blood of any Saint ; for as it was never defiled with sin , so his Body of Flesh and Blood had a Miraculous Conception above all other Men , though it had the true Nature of our Flesh and Blood , yet it had an Excellency above that of all other Men. But let us consider these words of S. E. which G. W. saith , might satisfie any Spiritual or unbyassed Mind , I do very highly esteem of the Blood of Christ , to be more Excellent , &c. Here is Solomon Eccles's Fallacy , and George Whitehead's Fallacy also . Now you know what Blood they mean , and see what Blood G. Whitehead means ; The Blood is Spiritual and Inward , the other is a Type . It is confessed , saith G. W. Light and Life , pag. 56. That God by his own Blood purchased to himself a Church , Acts. 20.28 . Now the Blood of God ( saith he ) or that Blood that relates to God , must needs be Spiritual , he being a Spirit ; and the Covenant of God is Inward and Spiritual , and so is the Blood of it . So you see he doth not allow the Blood outwardly shed to relate to God , or to be the Blood of the New Covenant , or that God purchased his Church with that Blood outwardly shed on the Cross . Is not this a plain Justification of Solomon Eccles's Letter , That that Blood is no more than that of another Saint ? judge ye , who are Intelligent . Again , He judges none of them guilty of Blasphemy therein , as he saith pag. 58. Light and Life . viz. Neither Solomon Eccles , nor W. Burnet . But wherein does he charge him ? I find not in any thing . I cannot produce and read to you many of my Proofs for want of time , but two or three to every following Head. You have had an Account of them as to Justification . Now it is worth your while to see how these [ pretended ] Infallible Men contradict one another . W. Penn , ( Reason against Railing ) falls in with T. Danson , and Argues like a Christian , though in Contradiction to himself elsewhere , That no Obedience that Man can perform to God , by the help of the Spirit is strictly Meritorious , according to the Law of God. This is good Doctrine , and so is the Reason too , because it is but finite ; and I would make use of the same Argument . But G. Whitehead , in Answering this Argument , Answers T. Danson thus : Whereas T. Danson Argues , That the Obedience and Righteousness , wrought in the Saints by the Spirit , is but finite , and therefore not Meritorious , G. Whitehead denies this , that it is finite , and saith , it is infinite . So that by his Argumen● , our Obedience and Righteousness that God works in us , is equal to God himself . Now I will read the Passage . W. Penn's Reason against Railing , Pag. 82. Rewardableness is a work without which God will not bestow his Favour , and yet not the meritorious Cause , for that there is no proportion betwixt the work that is finite and temporary , and the Reward which is infinite and eternal , in which sense both the Creature obeys the Commands of God , and does not merit , but obtain only ; and God rewards the Creature , and yet so , that he freely gives too . A good Protestant Argument , and good Protestant Doctrine , so far ; but that he contradicts it again , by opposing the necessity of Faith in Christ crucified for Justification , and totally excluding Christ's Satisfaction , in order to Justification and Remission of sin . You see W. Penn says , the Work is finite and temporary , and therefore does not strictly Merit . But hear G. Whitehead , in his Book , called , The Voice of Wisdom against Antichrist , &c. pag. 36. Printed at London , Anno 1659. (f) The Righteousness which God effects in us , is not finite , but infinite ; for Christ is God's Righteousness , and Christ is formed in us , Gal. 4.19 . And so that Righteousness which God works in us by his Spirit , is of the same Kind and Nature with that which worketh it , for the Saints are made partakers of the (g) Divine Nature , 2 Pet. 1.4 . Now , if you think I have read wrong , read it your selves . Quaker . I do not think so , only I think the whole Paragraph should be read . I hope you have all so much Christianity , as rather to hope , that what G. Keith has pretended to be a Proof , that he cannot prove it , than that he can : For it were well , if there were no Party of People that there could be any Proof against . G. Keith . I wish I had no occasion to produce any Proofs of this kind . Quaker . To pick here and there a piece , out of two or three Books , it is impracticable . G. Keith . They should have been here then to have defended it . I will read the whole Paragraph to you . Now I would haste to a Conclusion . I have proved to you , that they have excluded the Blood of Christ , that we are not justified by the Blood outwardly shed . I come to prove that they say , we are not sanctified by that Blood. I shall read to you , G. Whitehead , pag. 49 , 50 , 51. Here is one Proof , if ye think this is not enough , I will bring more . Neither did I ever read , says the Baptist , that it was the Blood or Life of Christ in his People that we are justified by . Now here is G. Whitehead's Answer , Light and Life , pag. 59. The Spirit of Christ ( which is Life ) doth both Quicken , Sanctifie , and Justifie the true Believers , John 6.63 . 1 Cor. 6. And that Blood and Water that 's said to cleanse , is not of another kind , but agrees in one with the Spirit , all which is known within , and the Effects thereof . So you see he takes it away from the outward Blood , and gives it to the inward Blood. Auditors . Go to the next Head. G. Keith . That is but G. Whitehead's Proof , I shall give you W. Penn's Proof . Auditors . Let us hear it . G. Keith . I would be loath to mention this Man , Is . Pennington . However this Question is in his Book , and I charitably think this Passage dropt from him unawares : I wish I could have that ground of Charity to others of them . But Truth ought to be more Precious to me , than any Man. I only mention his Name as to the Subject we are on . Jo. Faldo thinks that he has made Is . Pennington his own . Can outward Blood wash the Conscience ? p. 29. A plain Denial , says Jo. Faldo . Here is Jo. Faldo's Commentary on Is . Pennington's words . Now see how W. Penn explains Is . Pennington's words , pag. 149. Is he so impiously Vnjust , that because we do deny , that outward Blood can be brought into the Conscience , to perform that inward work ( which they themselves dare not , nay , do not hold ) therefore Isaac Pennington denies any Efficacy to be in that outward Offering and Blood towards Justification , as it respects meer Remission of former Sins and Iniquities . So in short , I take it thus : W. Penn Answers , That Is . Pennington's words are to be understood with reference to Sanctification , but not Justification . Says he , Outward Blood cannot be brought into the Conscience to perform that work : But the way that Blood has been brought into my Conscience , is by the application of a living Faith in Christ , whose Blood it was , the Spirit of God working that Faith in me ; and that Blood is not a Physical , but a Moral once of our cleansing . 1 Christ Jesus , by his Obedience and Suffering , procured the Pardon of my Sins , as well as he sealed it by his Blood. And , 2. He procured the Spirit to Sanctifie me . Therefore I agree with all true Christians herein . I find none say , there must be a material application of that Blood , but a Spiritual and Moral ; and we can give Instances that Moral Causes are many times more effectual Causes than Physical are : As the Money wherewithal we buy the Medicine that cures the Body , is not the Physical cause of Health , but a Moral ; and the Money that we buy Bread with , is not the Physical cause of our Nourishment and Refreshment , but a Moral ; and yet it is so great a cause , that without Money , neither Bread nor Medicine can be readily obtained , and not at all without somewhat equivalent . Now I have done with the two first Heads , shall I go on to prove the other two , or shall we adjourn to another day ? Auditors . If half an hour will do , go on . G. Keith . I know not but it will , but that they oft interrupt us with Digressions . The Third Head to be prove , i● , That the Body that dieth , riseth not again . First , from W. Penn's holding the Resurrection immediately after Death , in his Rejoynder , pag. 138. I think this will be enough for W. Penn , if I give no more . T. Hi●ks Argues thus for the Resurrection of the Body ; That if there be no Resurrection of the Body , the Joys of Heaven should else be imperfect . Now here is VV. Penn's Answer to it . I Answer , Is the Joy of the Ancients now in Glory imperfect ? Or are they in Heaven but by halves ? If it be so unequitable , that the Body which hath suffered , should not partake of the Joys Coelestial , is it not in measure unequal , that the Soul should be rewarded so long before the Body ? This Principle brings to the Mortality of the Soul ( held by many Baptists ) or I am mistaken . But why must the Felicity of the Soul depend upon that of the Body ? Is it not to make the Soul a kind of Widow , and so in a state of Mourning and Disconsolateness , to be without its beloved Body ? Which state is but a better sort of Purgatory . G. VVhitehead Argues the same way : If the deceased Saints in Heaven , or their Souls , have not all that they expect to all Eternity , all the Resurrection they look for , then they must be in Purgatory for the time : But if the latter be not , then not the former . But this contradicts many Scriptures , that especially in Acts 26. That Christ should suffer , and should be the first that should rise from the dead . Now , according to this Doctrine of VV. Penn , and G. VVhitehead , Christ's Resurrection was later than that of many Millions . Now , if you will hear a Proof from G. VVhitehead , you may . Auditors . Yes , let us hear it . G. Keith . Here is the place , pag. 353. G. Whitehead 's Christian Quaker . Says T. Danson , The Happiness of the Soul is not perfect without the Body , its dear and beloved Companion , the Soul having a strong desire and inclination to a re-union to the Body , as the Schools not without ground determine . Vide Calv. And here is G. VVhitehead's Answer , pag. 353. Both Calvin , T. Danson , the the Schools , and divers Anabaptists , are mistaken in this very matter , and see not with the Eye of true Faith , either that the Happiness of the Soul is not perfect without the Body , or that the Soul hath a strong desire to a re-union to the Body , while they intend the Terrestrial Elementary Bodies , for this implies the Soul to be in a kind of Purgatory or Disquietness , till the supposed resumption of the Body . You see I hope here is Proof enough , that G. VV. holds , that the deceased Saints look for no Resurrection of the Body . Quaker . Elementary Body , G. VVhitehead saith . Quaker H. Goldney . He reads that word faintly . G. Keith . What other Body could it be ? The Matter is , there is the same Argument of G. VVhitehead , and VV. Penn. A little Philosophy I hope will not offend you ; I hope if they make use of false Philosophy to defend their false Faith , I may make use of true Philosophy to defend the true Faith. And the Objection they make is the same against Christ's Body . Pray , was not Christ's Body Elementary ? Did he not eat and drink ? And was it not the same as we eat and drink ? And if we eat and drink of what are Elementary , then his Body did receive the same Elements , and they were converted into his Body . And G. VVhitehead owns in his later Writings , that Christ's Body that rose , is the same with his Body that suffered ; but his Pride will not suffer him to own his former Error , either in that , or in other things . And seeing VV. Penn thinks it absurd that a Body can be transformed from an Earthly and Animal Body to an Heavenly Body , as he Argueth , Reas . against Rail . p. 134. He makes it not only as gross as Transubstantiation , but worse . But this is his gross Ignorance in true Philosophy , and his false Philosophy destroys his Faith. It is not Transubstantiation , if I say , a Saint's Body is the same at the Resurrection for substance , as it was when it went into the Grave , leaving the Faeces , or drossy part of it behind . But if he say , Christ hath not the same substance of Body that he had on the Earth , this is plain Transubstantiation . For have not many that Understanding , that a gross body of Herbs , or other Substance , can by Chymical Operation be made so Subtil , Volatile , and Spiritual ( without any Transubstantiation , or change of the Substance ) that a Glass can scarce confine it , or hold it . Now , VV. Penn holds , that grossness is so Essential to a Body , that a Body must cease to be a bodily Substance , if it put off Grossness or Carniety , and that Carniety is Essential to a Carnal Body . But see how contrary this is to common Sense and Understanding . There is no Woman that sets a Hen to breed Chickens , but knows the contrary ; you know the Substance of the Egg ( the White and Yolk ) by the force and heat of the Hen sitting on the Egg , is changed into a Chicken (h) . Is here any Transubstantiation ? So that W. Penn and G. Whitehead are guilty of the Doctrine of Transubstantiation , and not we , and abuse the World with false Philosophy . They warn People against G. Keith , and his false Philosophy ; and I appeal to you to Judge , whether they have not abused the People with false and vain Philosophy . Auditors . If you will answer one of these two things , you that are a Friend of W. Penn , do ; you have excommunicated G. Keith , either answer , or justifie it . G. Keith . If they will appoint a Meeting of Friends , to prove me guilty of Error , I will never refuse to meet them ; and here are many Persons of discretion . I thank God , that has given me that humble Heart , that if they bring any Passage out of my Books that is not to be justified , I will own my Error and shortness . Now , if they would do the like , it would be well . But the matter is here , T. Danson says , Our want of Infallibility is no Argument against our Ministry . G. Whitehead says , it is ; they that want Infallibility are not true Ministers . Now , I hope I have proved they want Infallibility , and therefore by their own Doctrine , they are no true Ministers of Christ . Therefore I think it necessary to have the Passage read . G. Whitehead's Voice of Wisdom , pag. 33. Says T. Danson , As for our want of Infallibility , 't is no valid Plea against our Ministry , &c. Now here is the Answer . His falshood here appears plainly , for they that want Infallibility ( saith G.W. ) and have not the Spirit of Christ , they are out of the Truth , and are fallible , and their Ministry is not of the Spirit , seeing they speak not from the Spirit , but from their own Hearts , which are deceitful , when they want Infallibility . Quaker , N. Marks . I do make my further Appeal to you , and if I am either impertinent or defective , I beg your Excuse . G. Kieth . Then thou art not Infallible . Quaker . You may be ashamed to mention that . (i) Quaker N. Marks . What I have to offer , I submit to you . The Person that has denoted me to be W. Penn's Friend , has hit right ; and I own I am not capable to represent him . And as you are Professors of Christianity , I hope you will not conclude that Philosophy or Logick are any Essentials to Christianity . G. Keith . Who says it is ? But is it not sad , that their false Philosophy should destroy their Faith , and deceive so many People , and destroy their Faith ? Quaker N. Marks . I hope you will observe too , that the Method taken to make the Proofs , has been principally by the Rules of Philosophy and Logick . Next , I beg the Charity of you to consider , how much it is the Right of every Man to give his own Interpretation of all he says and writes . Therefore I hope you will not believe all you hear , having the Illustrations of an Antagonist . Next , I would Apologize for the Persons , they are not here ; it may be you are not all of you capable of knowing the Reason of things . G. Keith has had his Conversation among us many Years , between Twenty and Thirty Years . G. Keith . Between Thirty and Forty Years . Quaker N. Marks . Now for as much as these Writings were then extant long ago , and he was then intirely passive , still , and quiet , under all ; these Objections he now makes , I hope , as we know , so you will believe , it does not arise altogether from the matter of Fact : For I do not think this a good way of proving , to take a bit here and a bit there . Next I say , I hope you will reasonably conclude , that we who knew the Circumstances of his Life and his Temper , knew his Conversation has been such that we could not own him . He stands not charg'd with us on the Account of his Principles . I do not know but you will find , when you have an Answer to what he has offered , that those he charges and paraphrases on , will agree with him in Principles ; nor have we any thing against his Conversation among Men in the World. It was his Discontents with particular Persons , because he was a little troublesome petulant Man and we could not pacifie him ; and it was for that Reason chiefly that we did disown him . G. Keith . A little petulant Man. Quaker . I would have you note , I do not pretend to personate any of the Persons challenged . Auditors . What is this Discourse for , then ? They are ashamed to come . Quaker . I am coming to give you a further Reason why they do not meet him . We have had several Meetings with him before he was put from us . And the Reasons why they did not think fit to meet him now , you have heard , the Paper gives you an Account of it . Now since he is disowned by us , and also by them where he lives , we do not think our selves obliged to submit to such a peremptory Challenge . G. Keith . I suppose you cannot think I can answer to every particular because my Memory does not serve me . He charges me to take a bit here and a bit there out of their Books , I have quoted full Periods at length , as all Authors do , the Quakers when they refute Books of Adversaries , do not use to recite the whole Author they write against . Stranger . About what you say as to Philosphy , Dr. Sherlock says , the Salvation of the Soul Depends not on such niceties ; but for you to charge G. Keith as an Apostate , is one of the greatest Charges under Heaven ; and now for you to say that he differs not from you in Principles , is to clear him from that Charge . Upon which the People made some Shout . G. Keith . Pray be quiet , and regard the Honour of your Nation . Let me put you in mind of one very great falshood . He says — Here one Wyat , or Wait a Quaker interrupted G. K. as they did oft , on purpose to divert him from his matter . Quaker Wait. There is an Apostacy from the Spirit of Christianity , as well as from the Principles : Friends have excommunicated him , not for his Principles , but for going from the Spirit of Meekness , Charity , &c. G. Keith . The Tree is known by the Fruits . I was like a Lamb among I know not what , where there were Two or Three Hundred . I had scarce One that sympathized with me , at their Yearly Meeting , when clandestinely with their Doors shut , suffering none that were my Friends , to be present , they passed false Judgment against me , without any Trial : A Notorious Falshood he chargeth against me , and nothing else : only he calls me a little petulant man ; and he is not a Story above my height . He says , I am — Quaker . I observe a Contradiction in G. Keith ; he said , he was not disowned by half the Yearly Meeting ; and now he says by all . G. Keith . Let me answer that . I say , Divers in the Meeting were favourable — but W. P. and G. W. over-ruled them , and influenced them against me with Prejudice ; and some they over-awed and frighted . There was a Person that came to me , and told me , he would rather suffer his Life to be taken from him , or his Right Hand to be cut off before he would sign a sentence against me . And some others that were not free to consent to them , did purposely absent and this I told them in their yearly Meeting ; that there was such a person that had so spoke to me that day , they asked me who it was , I told them , I desired to be excused , in not telling his Name , that was not convenient . After I was gone , they called over the Roll one by one ; and the poor man seeing it coming to him , says , You need go no further , I am the Man ; now what is this , but to set up something like the Spanish Inquisition ? And there is one ( viz. T. E. ) hath applyed that passage in Scripture , Master , is it I ? but the question there was , Is it thou ? And tho I had cause to think that divers then present did not in Conscience consent to their false Judgment , but thought it too severe , as some has since acknowledged , yet I did not know , as to the last Meeting , that of all them that were present , that I had one that Sympathized with me ; they were all silent , and were-over awed by G. Whitehead and W. Penn's Party . And this poor man , above-mentioned , has come to me since , and disowned that false Judgment , and declared to me before two Witnesses , he did not joyn with them in it . He says I am disowned by them , where I live , I suppose he means the (a) Scots , do I Live among them ? this is a notorious falshood . Stranger . All this is very impertinent to the business in hand . G. Keith . I happened to drop an Expression in Pensilvania , finding the same Errors there I have now mentioned in their Books here , that no Protestant Society would suffer such Errors as these , no not the Church of Rome it self ; my words were , that no Protestant Society would Tolerate them . They began with me . There was an universal neglect among them of Preaching Christ Crucified , and concerning Faith in him ; Preaching only the Light within , and Christ within . Whereupon , a little while after , I began to Preach this ; and they stood up against me , and charged me with new Doctrine ; and one (a) appealed to the Monthly Meeting , whether they ever heard of such Doctrine Preached in the Quakers Meetings , directing them to Faith in Christ without us : I answered , The more shame , and it was now , full time to begin , if it was never Preached in the Quakers Meetings before . But that to witness against Error , and sharply to reprove it , is no Argument of Apostazy . I have most effectual Proofs from the Quakers themselves , Ed. Burrough's says , It is no breach of the Peace to witness against Error , Truths Princip . G. Fox says , He was moved by the Lord to testifie against False Teachers , that deceive the People with false Doctrine . Now if they be guilty of these things , I say I am not to be blamed to withstand their false Doctrine . They say I began first to Print , which is true ; but they sent out their defaming manuscripts against me to England , Barbadoes , Maryland , before I Printed a line against them . What is the last Remedy against oppression ? Why , Printing . Therefore I began . G. Fox . p. 15. Some of the Principles of the (b) Elect People of God , called Quakers . I hope this one Testimony of G. Fox will clear me , that I am not guilty of the breach of the Peace in the Church for opposing their Doctrines . Some Principles of the Elect People of God , signed by G. Fox . Says G. Fox , Moved of the Lord , written from the Spirit of the Lord , for the cleansing of the Land of all false Teachers , Seducers and Deceivers and witches , who beguile the People , and Inchanters and Diviners , and Forgerers and Hirelings , and which is for the good of the People . Now was this man of a Turbulent Spirit ? What work did G. Fox and G. Whitehead make ? What breach upon breach did they make on all other Professions whereof they had been formerly , as Church of England , Presbyterian , Baptists ? Do not mistake me , I Reverence Divine Providence that I became a Quaker . But if I had known they had had such Errors among them , I would as soon have put my Head in the fire , as have owned such among them : But I am of the same Faith as I have been above this thirty years . Quaker . It has been here asserted , that he has been a Quaker above thirty years , and he has Vindicated their Doctrine ; he is a Studious man , and our Books have been publick always ; now for him to come now and call over all Books , that he has , by not opposing , consented to , it looks as if he had Apostatized from what he formerly held . Auditor . Did he ever write against these Principles he now holds ? Quaker . He has constantly Vindicated our Principles . G. Keith . Whereas they say I have not taken notice of their Errors , I say I can appeal to W. Penn and G. Whitehead , that in the year 1678. three Ministers of London rose up against me , and I opposed their Errors at that very time . Auditor . What Ministers were they ? G. Keith . They were Quakers . They accused me of three Principles in my Book , called , The way cast up . The first was , That Christs body rose out of the Grave . They said it never did . 2. That I said It was Lawful to Pray to Jesus Christ Crucified . They denied it , and dared me to give an Instance of one English Quaker that I ever heard Pray to Christ . Whereupon W. Penn said , I am an English-man , and a Quaker , and I own I have oft Prayed to Christ Jesus , even him that was Crucified . And they answered , He is not an Antient Friend of the Ministery ; and G. Whitehead , a man Antient in the Ministery , told them ( there were forty or fifty present ) It is neither what W. Penn , nor what G. Keith says , but let Scripture decide it ; and he took the Bible , and oponed it , and Read , 1 Cor. 1.2 To all that call upon the Lord Jesus Christ , both their Lord and Ours . Their answer was Paul was dark and ignorant , as G. Keith is ; For our part we know better (c) Quaker . Will you say this , and not mention their Names . G. Keith . I will not do it , it is not convenient ; there is one of them a Citizen of very good repute , and therefore it will be better to conceal his Name . Auditor . Go on to the last head . Quaker . H. Goldney , you ought to name his name particularly , if thou dost not , thou art an Impostor . Auditor . He has done enough . G. Keith . I think it not convenient , we must use a little Policy as well as you . Jo. Delawall Published a Manuscript against me , wherein he charges me with Heresy , for saying , The Light within was not sufficient without something else , and that something else was Christ without us . Now they say there is no diference between them and me . I will cite a passage or two out of a Manuscript from Pensilvania , it is a thing that will satisfy your Consciences as much as any thing . I brought the Manuscripts , they were read at the yearly Meeting at London , 1694. and something was objected to the hand ; and it was asked at Samuel Jennings , my Adversary , whether it was the hand of that man , and he said , he believed it was ; and you will find it is matter of Doctrine at the bottom , for which they have Excommunicated me , however they would cloak it : Let them retract their Errors , and I will forgive them my Excommunication . See the Book called , Light and Life , pag. 41. See what is here said by G. Whitehead , That there is not an outward coming of Christ to Judg the Quick and Dead . What I prove from G. Whitehead , is proved from W. Penn ; for W. Penn has Authorized his Book , therefore it is the proof of them both . Here is the place . Moreover Christ said , The Son of Man shall come in the Glory of his Father with his Angels , &c. Matt. 16.27 , 28. Luke 9.26 , 27 Now what is that Glory of the Father , in which his coming is , is it visible to the Carnal Eye ? And when was that coming to be ? Is it now to be looked for outwardly ? But farther we do acknowledg the several comings of Christ , according to the Scriptures , both that in the Flesh , and that in the Spirit , which is manifest in several degrees as there is a growing from Glory to Glory . But three comings of Christ , not only that in the Flesh at Jerusalem and that in the Spirit , but also another coming in the Flesh , yet to be expected ; we do not read of , but a second coming without sin unto Salvation , which in the Apostles days was looked for . And as concerning that noted place , 1 Thes . 4.17 . brougt by W. B. to prove Christs coming without us to judgment G. W. denyeth it to be meant of his Personal coming , and useth a Sophism to contradict it , and wrest it , to his inward coming : whereas all the stress of his Sophism lies in that , We , We , that remain ; but the true Sense of these words is , those Saints , those Believers , that shall be living at that day , shall not prevent them that dyed in Christ before . It is an enallage personae frequent in Scripture , putting we for they , live that or James , therewith bless we God and Curse men . Now all these proofs he has Allegorized to Christ within , he has allegorized away his Birth , his Death , Resurrection , and Ascension , and coming to Judgment ; and so we have nothing from Scripture to prove Christ's Death to be of any benefit to us , and we have no Argument to prove he came in the Flesh : And so all the proofs against Jews and Philosophers he has Allegorized away . Thus you have had a proof from G. Whitehead and W. Penn. Now if you will adjourn the Meeting to some other time , or continue it a while longer , I am content . And I hope I have proved that I am not Petulant , and that I have had just cause to accuse them of these Errors . I was presented by a Grand jury at Philadelgpia ; and the Presentment would have been Prosecuted , if the Government had not been changed , and I had been accused for endeavouring to alter the Government , which is Capital by their Law ; and they would have found me guilty of Death , had they not been turned out of the Government , tho I was innocent : And when I objected against the Jury , they would not suffer one of the Jury to be cast . Now it I had been guilty of any Trespass and , Offence against K. William and Q. Mary , ( the King is alive , and God bless him ) do you think that Governour Fletcher , ( put into the Government by King William and Queen Mary ) that was the Governor there , if he had found me guilty of High Treason , he would have passed me ; but he ordered them to let fall the Indictment . (a) Then the Company desired G. Keith to proceed , if he had any more proofs against G. Whitehead . G. Keith . Yes , I have . Says G. Whitehead to R. Gordon , Dost thou look for Christ's coming again to appear outwardly in a bodily Existence ? If thou dost thou mayest look until thy Eyes drop out before thou wilt see such an Appearance of him . Now see how G. Whitehead has excused this , * he says , He did not mean it of Christ's coming to Judgment ; but he meant it thus , because R. Gordon would needs have it , that Salvation was delayed till Christ's outward coming . I am apt to think he abuses R. Gordon ( not that I would vindicate R. Gordon in every thing , for I think he did overcharge the Quakers in some things at that time , but now I do not accuse or acquit him . ) But I say , he says , he only opposed that false Notion of R. Gordon , as if the Saints remained under their Pollution till the Resurrection from the Dead . Can you think so ? He was a Protestant , and no Protestant will say any such thing . We say , we are saved by hope . I say , in a Scripture sense we may expect that great Salvation then even from all charge of Sin , tho not from any stain of Sin. Not that the sense of Pardon is not made manifest before that day ; but that in that day , all that have Repented and Believed , he will clear them , before God. Angels and Men. The Devil will be ready to accuse them in that day , but Christ will then clear them . It will be a great solemn Assize , and there will be a solemn Acquitment to all that have sincere Repented of their sins , and believed in the Lord Jesus Christ . Quaker . Let the passage be read out . G. Keith . If we had not had these oppositions , we might have saved an Hour . I will read the passage . Dost thou look for Christ , as the Son of Mary to appear outwardly in a bodily Existence to save thee , according to thy words p. 30. If thou doest , thou mayest look until thy Eyes drop out , befor thou will see such an appearance of him . Ye see these are plain and express words agianst Christ's outward coming . The Scripture saith we are saved by hope , and hope that is seen is not hope , our great Salvation in the full accomplishment of it , is at the Resurrection and Christs last coming , then will be the great Discharge and Acquitment , according to 2 Tim. 1.18 . and 2 Tim. 4.16 . The Lord grant that we may find mercy in that day , and that our sins may not be laid to our charge . And Acts 3.19 . it is said , Repent , and be Converted , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshment shall come , &c. The word is very well Translated , when the times of Reanimation shall come , the Greek is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Quaker . I desire to be heard a word . G. Keith . I have not done yet . I beg of you , I shall be but short . I had said I had upward of six Manuscripts . What says T. Elwood ( in his way of quibling ) six and an half ? All these Manuscripts were read at the Meeting two years ago , and for the Censure they gave of them ; I said I thought they had ( tho I confess I judg very mincingly ) censured these unsound expressions , Yet Tho. Elwood tells me that I am guilty of Forgery , that I said the Yearly Meeting said any thing like it . Here is the Paper of the Yearly Meeting , this Paper shews whom it came from ; does it find no fault with these Expressions in these Pensilvanian Papers . Here is seven or eight , I will read a few lines . I have brought an Original here , it is somewhat worn , but it may be read well enough ; I am glad that my Neighbour has such Charity for me , that he thinks I will not read wrong ; I can read every word of it , tho it be somewhat worn . I shall forfeit the Name of an honest man , it I read one word different from the Original . The words in John Humphrey's first Letter . Who is he that dares to make a Distinction between Christ's Body and his Spirit , and to put asunder what God hath joyned together ? Is not this to divide Christ to use that Terms , viz. Christ within , and Christ without ? when he himself , in that very Body that suffered , said , he that eateth my Flesh , and drinketh my Blood , dwelleth in me , and I in him , and in that day we shall know that it is the very same that liveth in us , that hath died for us , which before we could not come to know , altho any should tell us of it ; for Christ in us , is the hope of Glory , and they that draw , us to look for Christ without , we are not to go forth after them , to divide Christ's Body from his Spirit . I perceive by G. Keith's Ten Articles of Faith , that they relish too much of Carnality , a Carnal Body of Christ in Heaven , a Carnal Election and Reprobation , a Carnal Justification and Adoption , a Carnal Day of Judgment and Resurrection , beyond the Grave . I am grieved to hear some say , they did expect to be Justified by that Blood that was shed at Jerusalem . Is 't not to be carnally minded . I have not read the whole Letter , but an intire Paragraph of it . So farewel Christ without . You divide Christ , if you mention Christ without . Now mark , these Ten Articles of mine , that he calls Carnal , they are short , will you hear them ? They are in Print . My Adversaries sent them over from America to England , and that before I came to England , as an Inditement against me ; Frances Bugg met with them , and Printed them ; my Adversaries here sent them about as a great Crime against me . Some of the Principles of G. Keith and his Friends . 1. That Bodily Sickness and Death came in by the Fall. 2. That Christ has now in Heaven a Soul and a Body , that is not the Godhead , but the Temple of it , and most gloriously united therewith . 3. That Christ's Body that was Crucified and Buried without us , rose again without us ; and is now in Heaven without us 4. That the Man Christ Jesus will come again in that Body without us , to judg the Quick and the Dead . 5. That there shall be a general day of Judgment , that all the deceased Saints are in expectation of . 6. That we get not the Resurrection of the Body , either in this mortal Life , or immediately after Death . 7. That Faith in the Man Christ without us , as he Died for us , rose again , and is gone into Heaven , wrought in us by thy Spirit of Christ , is universally necessary to make Men true Christians , and Children of God , born of the Free Woman , who have the Spirit of Adoption , crying , Abba Father . 8. That Christ's Obedience and Righteousness , which he performed in , himself , without us , is imputed to us by Faith for the Remission of Sins . 9. That Christ is not only God's Elect , but all that shall be saved from the beginning to the end of the World , are God's Elect , being chosen in him ( not only before they Believe and Repent , but ) before the Foundation of the World. 10. That all and every one of the Members of the Church of Christ ( who are at age can speak ) ought to confess with their Mouths , in the hearing of some of their fellow Members , the Fundamental Principles of their Christian Faith , before they can be owned to be Members of the Church , that by the same , as well as by a good Life and Conversation , it may be known who are qualified to be Members of our Church , which is a boundary Term and Bond of our Union , the Spirit being the Principal , which may be easily done by Answering to some plain Questions . G. Keith his Ten Articles read all condemned to be Carnal by the Pensilvania Letter of J. H. a Preacher among the Quakers there , these Ten Articles were read at the Yearly Meeting at London , 1694. and the Letter that Condemned them , also read at the said Yearly Meeting , and that Letter Justified by Th. Elwood , the Patron and Advocate for that Yearly Meeting ; and therefore we ought , if we give Credit to Th. Elwood , to conclude that the Yearly Meeting at London , 1694. hath concluded all these Ten Articles to be Carnal , which yet express the Common Faith of all Christendom . The Second Letter Read. The Words of John Humphery's Second Letter . I craved no favour to my Paper from thee , nor them , but that word ( only ) which was the omission of my Pen , and never intended to be put under a Bushel , if occasion did require . But however let Deceit and Malice have its full force and scope upon it , and that word ( only ) taken off the conclusion of my Paper , which that saying of our Saviour himself , when he Expounded his meaning unto them ( who in these days had offended at his own words ) will clear me of your Aspersion , John 6.63 . It is the Spirit that Quickneth the Flesh profiteth nothing , so he himself ascribed the Work of man's Salvation , and Sanctification , not to the Flesh that Suffered , but to the Spirit that Quickned ; not to the Blood that was Shed at Jerusalem , but unto the Flesh and Blood that is Spiritual , which the Saints was to feed upon , and their Robes was made white by ▪ and it doth appear , that these that are otherwise minded , do not rightly discern the Lord's Body . Some of his own Fraternity perswaded him to put in the word , only , and that would excuse the matter ; he puts in the word , only , and he thinks it was against his Conscience , and so bids put it out again . Quaker . Whether do ye own sanctification to the blood outwardly shed , or to the Spirit inwardly given . G. Keith . I say to both , to the blood of Christ that was outwardly shed at Jerusalem , and to the Spirit of Christ inwardly given , to believers . Now they say that I have belied them , they never knew any that said they were not sanctified by that blood . You see what proofs I have brought , and therefore I must be an Apostate for accusing them of errours . Who would have thought , but that the yearly Meeting , if they had any regard to the honour of Christ's blood , would have shown greater zeal against these Men , than to excommunicate me , for opposing their vile errors in Pensilvania , and for rendring that precious blood shed for us as an unprofitable thing , so trampling it under foot : But ye see , they have little at all censured them , and if you will believe their Patron , ( as ye have cause , they owning his Books ) nothing at all . Th. Ellwood affirms , I am guilty of Forgery , for saying that the yearly Meeting passed any reproof on those passages , and whereas I was accused for saying , the light within was not sufficient to salvation without something else . I have a Letter from B. Chambers , one of the principal Evidences , that were against me , he owns that I mean , by that , something else , not humane Learning , not the Letter of the Scripture , not outward preaching , but I mean only the Man Christ Jesus , and his death and sufferings and resurrection , &c. Now here is a new book of Caleb Pusey come out , he calls it a modest account of the difference in Principles between G. Keith and his Adversaries ; and he would father it on me , tho it was not in my thoughts , that Jesus of Nazareth cannot be something else than the light within . I tell you , he would father it on me , because I say there is but one only Christ . Now I say , Christ without does not admit of another Christ within , and Christ within does not admit of another Christ without us . But Christ without us admits of something else within us , and that is his Spirit and Grace : And Christ within us , admits of something else without , and that is his man-hood . This is not another Christ , than what the Scripture speaks of ; but the Light within is one thing , the body of Christ is another thing . Now they of Pensilvania and Th. Elwood give out that I differ from them in Doctrine , these men say I do not : What Confusion is here among them that say they are in Unity ? I say the Light within is not sufficient , without the Light without , Christ without us , yet the Sufficiency of the Light and Grace of God within , in a true sense , I deny not , but own . And whereas they say the most of my Proofs I have brought , have been from Philosophy ; but it has been only , that I may , by true Philosophy , overthrow their false Phylosophy , which destroys their Faith. I need not bring Scripture to prove these Points , because they now profess to own them ; but the thing is , the Honour of Infallibility , and that they have accused G. Keith ; that G. Keith has not charged them truly . And here are the two things , their own infallibility , and that I have unjustly accused them . Now whether I have or no , see by the Articles : But if they grant or yeild , that they have any Errors in any of their Books , or unsound passages , that they need retract , and correct , then they are found the false Accusers against G. Keith , and G. Keith's found Innocent . But this will be hard for them to own ; First , That they have Erred : And Secondly , That they have falsely accused G. Keith , for saying they did Err. I have here a Testimony from W. Penn , to prove that Bodily Death did not come in by Man's Sin ; and then it followeth that the Resurrection of the Body doth not come by Christ's Resurrection . W. Penn's words are , in Answer to Muggleton and Reeve , p. 55. If the Flesh of Beasts is capable of Dying , rotting , and going to dust , who never sinned , why should not Man have Dyed , and gone to dust , though he had never sinned . You see this is almost expresly in terms . And whereas J. H. calleth one of my Articles , a Carnal Reprobation . There is nothing about Reprobation in my Articles , and the word Carnal is not in-any of the Ten. Auditor . Now let him that Answers for W. Penn and Geo. Whitehead tell us what he says to them Articles . But they said nothing to them good or bad , rare Defendents ! G. Keith . I happened to charge W. Penn with self contradiction , will you hear that proved ? It was in my Printed Paper . G. Keith has contradicted himself . How ? Not as to Principles or Practices , but as to his Opinion of W. Penn and G. Whitehead , but I distinguish betwixt G. Whitehead and VV. Penn Orthodox , and G. VVhitehead and VV. Penn Hetrodox , so far as I quoted them , as Orthodox , I stand to these quotations ; but when in other Books and places they have contradicted them , they are accountable for their Contradictions , and not I. So not the G. VVhitehead Hetrodox , and guilty of these vile Errors I have commended , but the G. VVhitehead Orthodox , and the like of W. Penn. Now I beg your Patience for one or two Quotations more , before I have done . It is out of Tho. Elwood , to shew you that Tho. Elwood charges me with forgery , because I said the Yearly Meeting did censure some of these unsound Papers . Here is the passage , it is but short , p. 84. T. Ellwoods further Discovery . Here ye see Friends ( saith T. Elwood ) that that Paper of the Yearly Meeting is so far from owning them of the other side , as he calls them , that is the Friends in America , to be guilty of unsound and Erronious Doctrines ( which G. K. here Expresly saith , it doth ) that it doth not undertake to determine , whether the Offence ( said to be given by some persons ) was throuhg Erronious Doctrines , and unsound Expressions , or through weakness , frowardness , want of VVisdom , and right understanding . And yet this man hath the confidence and falseness ( meaning G. K. ) to say positively , that paper doth own them guilty of holding unsound and erronious Doctrines . This was my Charity to them , that I thought they censured them , in some part or degree at least . Now these are their words in their Yearly Meeting Paper , 1694. London , from which I gathered , that they censured the words of those in Pensilvania : And although it appears that some few Persons have given offence , either through Erronious Doctrines , unsound Expressions , or weakness , forwardness , want of Wisdom , and right understanding , I construed , or to be equivalent to and , as sometimes it is : Now see if I was not more charitable to the Yearly Meeting , than he is to them . Here you see that that Paper of the Yearly Meeting , is so far from owning them guilty of unsound Doctrines , which G. Keith says it does &c. By all which it is plain , that not only Th. Elwood , but all that approve his Books , approve and justify all these Vile Errors , I have proved them in Pensilvania , guilty of , and if he may be credited , the Yearly Meeting at London , 1694. is equally guilty with them . Quaker . This is only thy different apprehension . G. Keith . He says the Yearly Meeting has not found fault with any of these Expressions . Now let me read one Passage more , it is but about six Lines , and I have done with the Printed quotations at present . pag. 99. He blames me for comparing the Books of Friends , to the Books of the Greek and Latin Fathers , p. 99. For further Discovery . In comparing ( says Tho. Ellwood ) the Books of Friends to the Books of them called the Greek and Latin Fathers , he has not done as a Friend and Brother , but as an Enemy , in supposing Friends Books to have been written by no better guidance nor clearer sight than theirs who lived and writ in those dark times . You see how modest they are here . Auditors . They gave a shout , signifying their dislike , that the Quakers Books should be preferred so far to the Greek and Latin Fathers , next to the days of the Apostles . Quaker , N. M. It is very well that the whole Paragraph be read , that it may give the more satisfaction to the Auditory : which was accordingly done . T. Ellwood saith , He ( viz. G. K. ) turns off , and says , I reflect not only on him , but on the late Christian Teachers and Writers , who have corrected the Errors and unsound Expressions contain'd in the Books of them called the Greek and Latin Fathers . Now hear what he further says , In comparing the Books of Friends to the Books of them called Greek and Latin Fathers , ut supra . Quaker , J. Waite . I have made few Observations on the whole , one or two particular , the other are general . The first is , that he charges G. Whitehead and W. Penn to destroy the Object of Faith. Now , when he speaks of some Doctrines , that were preached by him in 1678 , and that he was reproved for saying it was lawful to pray to Jesus Christ , he has vindicated W. Penn as to this Point , who said he did so . — Also he has vindicated G. Whitehead , saying that — He directed not to what either of them could say , but what Scripture says , and he cites them a clear passage , that was then believed by him , and , I believed by all Quakers . The other particular Observation I did note , is , that the Quakers have not used recite the whole Author they write against ; and I appeal to you , whether G. Keith , in the opposition he has made , has ever repeated a whole Author . These are my particular Observations . The general is , that what has been casually dropt , and I believe there are none concerned on this occasion , but ( I say ) they may sometimes be apt to drop some Expressions , that they will not stand by . But to urge these against the whole Party , is too hard , and is very * uncharitable ; and therefore , I hope , you will not conclude the whole body concerned in it . And G. Keith hath been conversant among us eight and twenty years , or more , and has preached the Doctrines owned by us , and writ many Books that related to fundamental Articles of Faith ; I believe him that they were owned by the People he was joyned with . And at the yearly meeting , the charge against him , and his expulsion , was not matter of Doctrine , but Practice , which was turbulent : And therefore he has apostatized from what he was before , from the meekness and integrity that is agreeable to the Doctrine of Christianity . Stranger . G. Keith . I see you are almost spent , I will answer for you . He says , it was the whole body that was against you ; it was the worse , that the Excommunication should be from the whole yearly Meeting , without mentioning any thing in particular . For a man to apostatize , is to apostatize from the whole Faith ; but for a man to differ with respect to particular things , this is not Apostasie . G. Keith . The words of the Excommunication run thus " I am a man of no Christian " Spirit , I have dismember'd myself from the Church of Christ . If they had said from this particular Society , it might have passed ; but they say , from the Church of Christ . And why ? Because there is no Church of Christ on Earth , but the Quakers ; and no Representative of them , but the Yearly Meeting in Gracechurch-street . You see how weak that man's Objections are . The Auditory shouted . Quaker , H. Goldney . This man asserts a Lye , and then the People are taken with it , as if it were a Truth G. Keith . If I have spoken amiss , I am willing to be brought to a tryal . He says I have answer'd many Books , wherein I have not recited all the Books I have answer'd . It is true , and I blame not them for not doing so . But they say , I only take bits and scraps here and there . I say , what cause have I to recite G. Whitehead and W. Penn's whole Books to you , when they have not done so ? I think it sufficient to give an account of their sense from full Periods and Paragraphs . He says I have already cleared George Whitehead and William Penn , from that charge that they have not destroyed the Object of Faith. And I say I have proved that they have destroyed the Object of Faith ; if they have at other times Owned it , let them disown and retract their Errors ; I am not to account for their Contradictions . They have Contradicted themselves ; they have disowned the Object of Faith ; and if I have charged them with it , this is no Contradiction in me , but in them . Quaker . H. Goldney made an interruption , while G. K. was speaking , as he oft did , and gave great offence to the Auditory with his impertinencies and reflections , calling G. K. Lyer , Impostor , Apostate . G. Keith . The reading of this Paper , if ye please , shall conclude this Meeting . After T. Ellwood came out with his further discovery , I made my Complaint to the Monthly Meeting at Bull and Mouth , against the Forgeries and false Accusations that his Book was filled with , and I begged of them , that they would hear my Charge against him ; but they would not suffer me , they said I might print , as T. Ellwood did ; but I said I could not , they have a Stock , I have not . Whereupon I went to some of the Church-Party that favour'd me , and told them , if I could not get a meeting to hear me , my design was to give forth a printed Advertisement of a Meeting to clear myself of these things , and they might be present if they would . Some of their Party said to me , George , do not they , or some of them would give me a meeting . Accordingly they gave me a meeting . They took notice of some of Ellwood's Forgeries and Abuses ; some of them have , I hope , that Courage , that I believe they would not be offended nor afraid if I named them : They have said in their Paper , T. Ellwood has done me wrong . Quaker , H. Goldney . Let us know their names , who they are . G. Keith . We must use some little Policy , as well as ye . Some of them are eminent among you . Here is a Copy of a Paper containing an account of the matter . There were , I think , nine or ten of them , H. Goldney , if I should name them , would not deny them to be his Brethren . Quaker , H. Goldney . I dare thee to name their names , or else thou art a Lyar , an Impostor , a Cheat ; I dare say it is a Cheat. And turning to G. K. he said , O thou Lyer , thou contentious Creature ! G. Keith . See this little man's passion now , what is he but a Creature , and a contentious Creature ? I contend for Truth , he and they against it . I will not name them without their consent ; only bid this angry man , Henry Goldney , be silent , and I will read their Paper , containing their Censure against T. Ellwood in divers * particulars . The true Copy of a Paper containing a Censure and Judgment of a Meeting of Friends , ( owned by Tho. Ellwood's Brethren , to be in Vnity with them , and generally in good Repute among them ) held at London the 12th Month , 1694 , in divers weighty particulars . IN Thomas Ellwood 's Book , entituled , A further Discovery , &c. pag. 31 Thomas Ellwood blames G. K. for mistating the Controversie , and cunningly sliding in the word Within , when he knew it was not in the words charged , nor in the words proved . A true Copy of the three Judgments , p. 6. are these words : All which are something else than the People called Quakers understand by the Light , to wit , the light in every man's Conscience , which G. K. alledgeth , is Proof that G. K. intended the Light within . In Benjamin Chambers Letter , dated Philadelphia the 24 th of the fourth Month , 1693. one of the four credible Evidences against G. K. are these words following . The substance of what Tho. F●tzw●ters had said , to wit , that according to his own Apprehension of thee , thou didst not believe the Light of Christ within Man is sufficient for Salvation without something else : To which words thee didst then in the audience of the Meeting forthwith reply , No more I do not , without something else In John Delaval 's Letter , dated the 24th of the 10th Month , 1692. are these words , cited out of G. W. 's Book : That the Light which is sufficient to convince of Sin , and leads out of it , is sufficient to guide unto Salvation , but such is the Light of Christ in every man. John Humphry's Two Letters read , and both to the same purpose . T. E. Further Discovery , &c. pag. 101. are these words : And this makes a Verbal Confession ; yea , a bare Verbal Confession , sufficient to yoke them , as he phrases it , together in Church-Fellowship . Reasons and Causes of the Separation , pag. 22. ad finem ; Tho. Elwood leaves this out , viz. Touching these necessary and fundamental Principles of Christian Doctrine , as well as that their Conversation is such as becomes the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ . Pag. 36. That the Church of Christ is the multitude of sincere Believers in Christ , who ought to manifest their Faith to one another , by the living confession of the Mouth , flowing from the living Faith in the Heart , accompanied with the seal and confirmation of a Holy and Christian life and conversation . Pag. 103. Tho. Ellwood accuseth G. K. for giving of false Quotation , or forging Quotation out of Robert Barkly's Book . G. K's Quotation compared with Robert Barkly's agrees , as quoted ; Reasons and Causes , &c. pag. 16. for Substance of Doctrine , pag. 24 , 25 , 26. in express words , pag. 106. T. E. admits of Substance . Further Discovery , p. 19. Tho. Ellwood accuseth G. K. that he blames Friends that they were gone too much from the outward to the inward . But G. K. p. 20. which Tho. Ellwood brings for Proof , saith , That he blames some persons for not rightly and fully preaching Christ without ; so that Tho. Ellwood's consequences seems not fair , but strain'd . Pag. 22. Tho. Ellwood accuseth George Keith of a Fallacy , in declaring , he refused not to go forth at the Yearly Meeting : which Fallacy alledged , was , That G. K. should refuse to go out some one day of the yearly meeting : but that not appearing to us by any Quotation , the supposed Fallacy appears not . And further ; whereas Tho. Elwood alledges , tha● he was led into this Mistake by G. K's obscure way of writing ; for altho' in pag. 14. nor 18. of the Book Reasons and Causes , as Tho. Ellwood unduly argueth * , yet in pag. 3. Plea of the Innocent , quoted by himself , pag 19 of his first Book called an Epistle , &c. we find G. K. gives account ▪ the Yearly Meeting at Philadelphia was in the first week of the 7th month 1691. Further Discovery , p. 26 Tho. Ellwood saith , G. K. asks why they contradicted the sound Judgment of a Monthly Meeting at Philadelphia , passing due Censure upon W. S. sixth month thereafter , and saith . It doth not sound as if it came from a sound Judgment ; as if a Judgment now were capable of contradicting a Judgment that should be given six months after ; whereas it appears by the date of the Judgment given by the publick Friends , to be nine months after the Yearly Meeting , the first being as above , the 1 st of the seventh month , 91 ; the other bearing date the 4 th of the fourth month , 92 : The which Book , Tho. Ellwood being so conversant in , looks as if he could not be ignorant of the adjourned Meeting , being six months after the Yearly Meeting , to wit , the 27 th of the twelfth month , as appears in pag. 10. Reasons and Causes ; and that wherein the supposed Judgment of the Yearly Meeting is , is dated nine months after the Yearly Meeting . In the same Book , pag. 35. Tho. Ellwood alledgeth , That he no where gave that as the only , or any Reason , why the Meeting could not adjourn , to wit , because the Book and Clark was gone . Pag. 36 , & 37. he adds , Let G. K. clear himself fairly of this if he can , till then I shall take it for certain , that that Monthly Meeting was ended and broken up , part of the Friends gone away , the Clerk gone , the Book in which the Proceedings of the Meeting should be recorded gone , before the adjournment was made , and consequently that Adjournment not good , but invalid . Ditto , pag. 42 , & 43. Whereas Tho. Ellwood should have brought matter of Fact , to prove G. K. guilty of the Separation , instead thereof , he argues , as we think , unfairly by logical Nicety . Pag. 42. he blameth G. K. greatly , for not putting the Printer's name to some of his Books . But it 's well known this hath been the frequent practice of the People called Quakers , not to put the Printer's name to their Books , in times of suffering . Pag. 91. Tho. Ellwood alledges , he did not understand that the Doctrine of the Faith of Christ , as he died , being necessary to our Christianity and Salvation , &c. was by him reputed a Doctrine in Controversie between G. K. and others , in America , when in several places of his Books it plainly appears , it was the principal Doctrine in Controversie . See Reasons and Causes , pag. 8 , & 21 , 22. with many others . G. Keith . The Paper is read , the Question was not concerning the Light indefinitely , but whether the Light within was sufficient to Salvation , without the Man Christ and his Death , &c. Thomas Ellwood accuseth me unjustly . That I cunningly slid in the word Light within ; as if that were not the state of the Question , but Light indefinitely comprehending Christ both Light without and within . But ye see how the citations they bring in their Paper clear me , and shew T. Ellwood his injustice against me . — You see there is the Light within , not the Light without , in the Citations they have brought to clear me , and to blame T. Ellwood . And here is another thing they find fault with , as to T. Ellwood's wronging me , as if I had made a meer Verbal Confession , a sufficient qualification to a Member of the Church of Christ . See here they cite my Book , Reasons and Causes , p. 22. — Take notice how they notifie his Forgery , that he leaves out my words , — T. Ellwood says , I make a meer Verbal Confession a Qualification for being a Member of the Church . But I say not so , as if a Verbal Confession were enough , but as well a Conversation , such as becomes the Gospel , is necessary to qualifie a Member . So my Book is , Such a Conversation as becomes the Gospel , p. 36. Reasons and Causes , &c. — I appeal to you , is not this more than a Verbal Confession ? T. Ellwood charges me to say , That a meer Verbal Confession is enough to make a man a Member of the Church of Christ . Now , p. 103 T. Ellwood accuseth me unjustly ( as his own Brethren do observe ) for giving a false Quotation out of R. Barclay's Book called the Anarchy , &c. but they clea● me , and declare it to be true , as it is . T. Ellwood quibbles about Substance , finding fault with my Saying . Somewhere it agrees in Substance with R. B. as elsewhere in express words . — Now these men take notice that T. Ellwood is unfair in taking that liberty to himself he will not allow to me : They observe , he admits of Substance of Doctrine in his own Citations , but will not allow it to me . Another thing T. Ellwood accuses G. Keith ( as they observe in their Censure ) that he blames them for going too much from the outward to the inward : But these are not my words , nor sence . And they censure T. Ellwood for making a strained Consequence on my words ; for , tho' I blamed them for not rightly preaching Christ withou● , yet not for going to the inward Light : for if they did go rightly to God's Light and Gift in their Hearts , they would not hold such gross Errors . But he says , I blame them for going from the outward to the inward , which is not so . See p. 22. Again , they censure him in his blaming me for not naming the Day , Month , or Year wherein that Yearly meeting at Philadelphia was held , which he makes the ground of his perversion , and would excuse it . You see he argues like a rare Logician . He says , I do not name the Year , nor Day ; nor is it in p. 14 , nor p. 18. But what then ? I do it in another page . This is rare Logick . Now , I say , you have both in p. 3. quoted from The Plea of the Innocent . Which p. 3. T. Ellwood has quoted for another purpose , but could not see it for that . And all this Proof is , that I did not tell it in p. 14 , nor p. 18 but I did it in p. 3. His Argument is a Sophism , and is faulty in not making a sufficient enumeration . Again they censure him for charging me with Nonsence . Pray , may not a meeting held six months after contradict a meeting going before ? Very well . But he has given out that I am so weak a man , that I cannot write sence . This morning one came to me with Henry Goldney , and said , People would hoot at me in the Meeting , ( but it is fulfilled on themselves ) thinking me craz'd : And so here is a Paper against me , that I cannot speak sence : And why ? Because he feigns , that I said a meeting six months before contradicts a meeting held six months after it ; when there is no such thing ; but that a meeting six months after , contradicts a meeting six months before . When Tho. Ellwood could not prove , that I began the Separation at Philadelphia , by any Evidence of Matter of Fact , he essays to do it by false Logick , arguing , That the Cause must be before the Effect . Therefore because , I say , Th. Loid and they that were Magistrates went away , this was the beginning of the Separation , and a cause of it . And so when he cannot bring a reason in Matter of Fact , he will go to false Logick for it : So I answer'd his Argument , saying , All learned men , that write of causes and effects , acknowledge that a priority of time is not necessary to the cause ; but it is enough that there be a priority of nature ; the first moment the Sun was created , there was light . And then besides , the cause cannot be the effect , says he ; if their going away from that meeting were the cause of the separation , it was not the effect . But I said to him , formal and material causes may be both cause and effect . As for example ; The formal and material causes of a man , are his Soul and Body , and they are the man. The material and formal causes of this House , are the Stones , the Bricks , the Timber , and the Fashion . Now here these causes are the effect . Now Th. Loid's going away was a cause of the Separation , and yet was a beginning of the Separation : And is it not shameful ? They accuse me of Separation , but they run to a perversion of Philosophy to prove it by , that the cause is before the effect ; when they have no other Arguments against me , but false Logick and vain Philosophy and Deceit , and his own Brethren here in this Paper do censure him , for his arguing unfairly by Logical nicety . Here is another Observation of these honest men : they censure him for saying , he did not understand that the Doctrine of the Faith of Christ , as he died , &c. being necessary to our Salvation , was reputed a Doctrine in Controversie betwixt us . — Whereas the principal Doctrine in Controversie between them and me , was about the Faith of Christ , as he died , &c. whether necessary to our (a) Salvation . Here is something also to take notice of , that he blames me as not fair , for not putting my Name to my Book , nor the Name of the Printer . Now the Quakers have done so in England , in Suffering Times ; and yet the Printer in America was prosecuted by an Act of Parliament , for not printing his Name to some of my Books , and they took away his Letters and Frame : But , I find , that which is Persecution in England , is esteem'd good Justice in Philadelphia . Quaker , N. Marks . I have something to propose to you , if you please . We are all in general very apt , and too apt , to have a good Opinion of ourselves , it is very near to Mankind to do so . You have very well answer'd the Design of this meeting in this ; you have heard him with a great deal of temper . I desire you further to consider , that all considerate men , when they hear one part , hear but with one Ear. So far as G. Keith thinks fit to make this publick , you may expect an Answer , and I hope you will reserve one Ear to hear that . I have a Paper that some persons concerned in this Challenge have sent , that they desire may be read . Which was consented to . G. Keith . The truth is , I could be almost content to go away , and say nothing to it , there is so little of value in it . They say I began with them , but they began with me in Pensylvania . I was doing my duty , in preaching Christ without , and Christ within ; they charged me with preaching two Christs . I went to some of them about it , but they took their part against me . I laid it before the Ministry at the Yearly meeting , they also took their part . Now , you know , he that affirms , on him lies the business of proving . W. Pen , when I was opening a place of Scripture , he charges me with being an Apostate and Impostor . Here he charges me with being an Apostate ; I say , to him it belongs to make his charge good , but he goes away . — At the Yearly meeting , I put it to him to make it good . I do not doubt but this meeting will sound through the Nation . They urge me to Printing ; I say again , I have not either Estate or Time to print Book upon Book . And tho' I have not answer'd the said two (b) Books , why may not I say as they do , They are not worth answering ? As for example , There is a Book called , The Snake in the Grass , ( I would not vindicate all things in it ) but they have been urged to answer it ; their Answer is , it is not worth answering : This man that prints this half-sheet says , it cannot be supposed that G. Keith can answer eighteen sheets of Paper in a Meeting . Why can it be ●upposed ? But G. Fox can answer an hundred sheets of Paper in a few Pages . He has answer'd Books of ten or twelve sheets in a few lines . And as for their upbraiding my Friends for not bearing the charge of Printing my Books , they that own me here , are not many of them rich , and I would not put them to it . But now there is the thing , the Controversie is , whether the rich Church , or the poorer Church , be the Ch. of Christ . G. Keith's is the (c) poor Church , and theirs is the rich Church , and I am not asham'd of my Poverty , seeing I have not done any dishonest thing . I have weaken'd my Estate by printing what I have printed already ; there is a Printer here , that can own I have paid near forty pounds to him for Printing . Now they upbraid me for my Poverty . Their Church is the true Church , because the rich Church ; and ours the false Church , because the poor Church . Quaker , N. Marks . You should hear one side but with one Ear , and leave the other free for the other side . G. Keith . I am perswaded the Reasons given in the Paper read at the beginning , were no just Reason for their not appearing . But though some comparisons are odious , yet give me leave to make a comparison . May a Malefactor make this excuse ; You shall not call me before a Justice without my consent ? If a man rob me , I may complain of him as a Robber , and without his consent call him to account ; but here is a strange thing , injuring men may not be called to account without their consent , it will trespass against the Law , and intrenches upon liberty of Conscience . I was advised to go before the Lord Mayor of London , and I did , and told him , I hoped it would give no offence to Authority : for the things I was concerned in were the common Doctrines of Christianity ; if there be any Tumult , says I it shall not be on my side : And the Lord Mayor was pleased to consent to it . Now their printed Paper seems to reflect on the publick Authority , and not what I have done . And thus the Meeting peaceably ended , between the second and third hour in the Afternoon . Note , If any of my Adversaries object , That divers of these Proofs here brought , were brought formerly in my Book against W. Penn and G. W. call'd , A short List of the vile and gross Errors which T. Ellwood hath replied to in his printed Book called Truth defended ; I answer , I know not any one of them that he has sufficiently answer'd unto , to give the least Sati●faction to any sound Christian , his Answers being meerly Evasions and Perversions ; as I should have shown , if he had appear'd . But beside , there are many new Proofs here brought , beside the former , which I am well satisfied they can never truly answer , but by a sincere and free Confession of their gross Errors , and a hearty retracting and relinquishing them , And if any that were present at that Meeting , or may happen to read this printed Account , with the proofs brought out of their Books in full Periods and Paragraphs , as often as there was any occasion , are desirous to see the Books , and to read the Proofs in the said Books , that were then brought , or any others that may be brought , I freely offer them that are sober and impartial persons , to let them have the free sight and view of them , leisurely to read and consider them , if they please to call at my House . And I the rather make this Offer , because divers of these Books are not easily to be had , not being in the hands of many . And because I had not time enough to read divers other great Proofs that I had , being hinder'd with the impertinent Digressions of those that interposed , ( whom we had no just Cause to hear , pretending no Deputation from the persons they spoke for , and therefore only were permitted , by Favour , to shew their Impertinencies ) . I therefore think fit to add some other few very considerable Proofs out of these mens Books , and perhaps one or two out of Books approved and commended by them , and some few more of W. Penn's and George Whitehead's Self-Contradictions . AN APPENDIX , CONTAINING Some other Considerable Passages for Proofs , out of these Mens Books , relating to the foregoing Heads ; and some few more of W. Penn's and G. Whitehead's Self-Contradictions , which were design'd to have been read at the Meeting at Turners-Hall , 11th of the Month call'd June , 1696. but for the Diversions made , could not then be read . IN George Whitehead's Book called The Divinity of Christ , he hath this most unsound and scandalous passage concerning Christ , how a Sacrifice , and his Blood. In his Answer to T. Danson's Synopsis of Quakerism , p. 70. first he sets down the words of John Owen thus : The Sacrifice denotes his Human Nature , whence God is said to purchase his Church with His own Blood , Acts 20.28 . for He offer'd Himself through the eternal Spirit ; there was the Matter of the Sacrifice , which was the Human Nature of Christ , Soul and Body ; His Soul was made an Offering for Sin , Isa . 53.10 . His Death had the Nature of a Sacrifice . Against these sound words of John Owen he quarrels , and contradicts thus : Answ . These passages are but darkly and confusedly express●d ; as also we do not read in Scripture , that the Blood of God , by which he purchas'd his Church , is ever call'd the Blood of the Human Nature : nor that the Soul of Christ was the Human Nature , or was put to death with the Body , ( for the Wicked could not kill the Soul ) though his Soul was made an Offering for Sin , and he poured it out to Death , ( he bore the Sin of many , and made intercession for Transgressors ) but what Death ( and in what manner ) was it , is a Mystery truly to know ; for his Soul in his own being was immortal , and and the Nature of God is divine , and therefore that the Blood of God should be of human ( or earthly ) nature , appears inconsistent ; and where doth the Scripture call the Blood of God Human , or Human Nature ? Neither do we read , that the Blood which beareth Record in the Earth , and agrees in one with the Spirit , ( and which purgeth the Conscience , washeth and cleanseth the Believer in the Light from all Sin ) was ever called by the Apostles the Blood of the Human Nature . Nor do we read , that the Saints did eat and drink Flesh and Blood that was of a human nature , to receive Divine Life in them thereby : for the Water of Life and Blood of Christ , which are said to wash , sanctifie , and justifie ; which agrees with the Spirit in those Works and Effects We never read , that they are called in Scripture by the name of Human Nature , for the Spirit that quickens is divine , and it is the Spirit that gives Life , the Flesh profiteth nothing , John 6. Now this unsound Doctrine of G. W. doth so well agree with that in John Humphrey's two Letters abovementioned , that John Humphrey seems to have been his Disciple in the Case : and it is certain this sort of Doctrine of G. Whitehead hath corrupted the Minds of many . We see he will not own either the Flesh , or Blood of Christ , or Soul of Christ , to belong to the human nature . Annotat. Before I understood the Mystery of Iniquity and Antichristianism that lay hid , under the finding fault with this name or term Human Nature of Christ , and his Humanity , observing that divers found fault with it , I was ready to excuse them , thinking , that tho' they disowned the term Human , yet they owned that signified by it , to wit , the real Manhood of Christ , having a real Soul and Body , that is not the Godhead , but most gloriously united therewith . And accordingly I did in part excuse them , as in my Book The True Christ owned , pag. 20 and pag. 105 I cited some words of Hilarius , Lib. 10. de Trinitate ; Quid per Naturam Humani corporis concepta ex Spiritu S. caro judicatur . i. e. Why is the Flesh conceived of the Holy Ghost , judged by the nature of an Human Body ? But neither Hilarius nor I judged that the Body , though conceived of the Holy Ghost , was any part of the Substance of the Holy Ghost , the Particle of in that place denoting the Holy Ghost to be the Efficient Cause of that Conception , but not the Material . But that my Mind and Sense , that Christ had the true Nature of Man , of Soul and Body , neither of which were the Godhead , was sound then as now , and the same as now , plainly appears from Page 20. of my Book above cited , where I say , Human Soul may signify the true Soul of Man , having all the essential properties of man's Soul , and its whole Perfection . And if in this sense any will say , That Christ hath a Human Soul , and call the Manhood of Christ his Humanity , there needeth no contention about it : For in the Latin Tongue we have not a word so proper as Humanitas , to signify the Manhood ; and if we may say Humanitas in Latin , we may say in English , Humanity . G Whithead his Objection against the word Human , as signifying Earthly , hath the same force against calling Christ Adam , coming from the Hebrew word Adamah , that signifieth Earth . And the Scripture calleth the Man Christ the second Adam ; and certainly the Man Christ had not only that which was Heavenly , but had even our Earthly part , but without sin ; his Body being nourished with Earthly Food , which Body now glorified is Heavenly . But that I differed as much in Doctrine from G. Whithead then as now , as concerning the Blood of Christ , and the sense of that place of Scripture , Acts 20.28 . ( what that Blood of God was , wherewith he purchased his Church , he affirming it was the Blood , not of the Human Nature or Humanity , but of the Divine Nature , as may be seen above ) appears in my Book above-mentioned , The true Christ owned , pag. 94. I expresly say , I grant that there is such a figurative speech of the Communication of Names and Properties , whereby the Man Christ is called God , and also God is called Man ; and God is said to have shed his Blood , although Christ as God hath not Blood to shed , but only as Man ; yet by reason of that most rare and wonderful Union betwixt the Godhead and Manhood , the Blood of the Man Christ is called the Blood of God , Acts 20.28 . This may serve as one great Instance , to shew , That as I am not changed in this Doctrine from what I was many years ago ( that Book of mine being printed Anno 1679. ) , so I did then as widely differ from G. W. in that great Article of Faith , as I do now . But I confess I knew not that any such absurd Doctrine was in his Books , till of late that I made a more narrow search , occasioned by his defending the same Errors in his Pensilvanian Brethren . Again ; In the same Answer to T. Danson's Synopsis , T. D having affirmed that there is a continual need of Faith and Repentance in this life , G. Whithead answereth , That there is a continual need of Repentance , this I deny ; for true Repentance , where it is wrought , and the fruits of it brought forth , this is unto Salvation never to be repented of , and is attended with a real forsaking of sin and transgression . Annot. G. Whithead's Ignorance greatly appeareth in this , that he thinks Repentance and Perfection inconsistent ; but it is a strange Perfection that destroyeth an Evangelical Virtue and a Fruit of the Spirit , such as Repentance is ; and what is Repentance ? A change of the mind , or a transformation of the mind , as the Greek word , Englished Repentance , implieth ; or more particularly , true Evangelical Repentance is a great aversion and perfect hatred of the soul to all sin , and a deep humiliation before God , with godly sorrow and contrition of soul for sins past , which is very consistent with , and very becoming the most perfect and holy men that ever lived , since all have sinned ▪ It seems it is from this great Error that he and many others of his Brethren seldom , if ever , pray for Forgiveness of sin , at least for themselves ; for if there be no need of Repentance , it will follow that there is no need of praying for Forgiveness : But all sound Christians of true spiritual experience do know , that both Repentance for sin , and praying for Forgiveness of sin , are well consistent with the greatest degree of Holiness attainable in this life : Nor doth the praying for Forgiveness imply universally the want of it , more than the praying for the Spirit implieth the want of it . Again ; Whereas it was said in the above Narrative , That G. Whithead hath allegorized away the Birth , Death , Resurrection , and coming again of Christ without us to Judgment ; take these plain Proofs . 1. His allegorizing away his Birth , prophesied of by Isaiah , 9 6. Unto us a child is born , a Son is given : This he expoundeth of Christ born within . He-Goats Horn , Page 51. 2. He allegorizeth away his Resurrection , expresly denying that Christ was bodily seen of Paul , and perverting that place in 1 Cor. 15.8 . to Christ within . Page 51. 3. He allegorizeth away his coming without us to Judgment , in these Scriptures , Matth. 16.27 , 28 1 Thes . 4 15 , 16 , 17 Light and Life , Page 40 , 41. 4. Both he and Richard Hubberthorne allegorize away his Burial , Light and Life , Page 52. and He-Goats Horn , Page 62 perverting that Scripture , Isa . 53. He made his grave with the wicked ; he adulterates the true Translation , and turns it , in the wicked , which the Hebrew doth not bear : Where see a most absurd account of the Resurrection , turning it wholly to the Resurrection of two Seeds in two Bodies within men . 5. He allegorizeth away the Resurrection of the Saints Bodies , by his perversion of that place of Scripture , — Who shall change our vile body , and fashion it like to his glorious body , Phil. 3.21 . to a change of the Body that the Apostles and Saints witnessed before death ; and yet in contradiction to that , in his Real Quaker a Real Protestant , Page 105. he understands that very place of a change of the vile , or low and humble Body , like unto the glorious Body of Christ , as a thing to come . Some other of Geo. Whithead's Contradictions . 1. GEO. Whithead in his Light and Life , page 69. thinks him a very blind and ignorant man that reckons Bodies Celestial and Terrestrial to be all one in Matter and Substance ; and yet the same G. W. in malice of the Independant Agent , pag. 17. ( recited and approved by John Pennington , Apostat . expos'd , p. 16. ) owns that Christ's Body now in Heaven is the same in substance he had on earth : So by his own words he hath declared himself to be a blind and ignorant man , and yet Infallible , otherwise by his own word no true Minister . 2. In a late * printed Half sheet , signed by him and seventeen more , he owneth Christ to be both God and Man , and owneth the Humanity of Christ , making it synonimous with Manhood ; and yet it is proved in the above Narrative , that he neither owneth him to be God or Man ; finding fault with W. Burnet for saying that Christ as God had a Father , and had Glory with God before the world began ; arguing as the Socinians do , that this would imply two Gods ; s●e Light and Life , page 47. Again ; He finds fault with T. Danson for saying that the Man Christ had a Created Soul : Answer to T D. 's Synopsis , p. 18. And he blames R. G. for saying Christ hath a Bodily Existence without us , in Heaven ; Nat. of Christianity , page 41. 3. In his late Answer to the Queries sent to the Yearly Meeting of the people called Quakers , at London , signed by Dr. Lancaster , Chaplain to the Bishop of London , he owns the Blood of Christ that was outwardly shed , to be a part of the Sacrifice , even Christ's Blood that was shed without the gates of Jerusalem , together with the whole Sacrifice of himself , both of Soul and Body , was a true Propitiation and Atonement for man's Reconciliation and Peace with God , for Remission of sin , through a living Faith , and true Repentance , &c. But in his Light and Life , he denieth that the outward Blood was that by which we are either sanctified or justified , and calleth it a Type , and saith the shedding of it was a wicked man's act ; from whence he inferreth that we are not justified by the outward Blood , but pleadeth , that the Offering Passover Blood , by which we are cleansed , is within , as the New Covenant is , and not without ; See in the Narrative above . And this sort of Unchristian Doctrine G. Whithead ( as many others ) did receive neither from the Spirit of Christ within , nor from the Holy Scriptures , but , as it seems , from G. Fox , who in a printed Paper of his , having this Title , To all People in Christendom , concerning Perfect Love , &c. also concerning Christ's Flesh which was offered , ( which printed Paper I have ; it is joined with some other printed Papers under this general Title , Several Papers given forth for the spreading of Truth ; See Page 55 , 57 , 59. ) hath very unsound and unchristian Doctrine concerning Christ's Flesh , that is , the Offering , in which is the belief ; by Christ's Flesh meaning not his outward Flesh . Some of his words I shall faithfully recite as followeth , ( that to me are very unsound , and I believe in general to all sound in the Faith ) : — And Christ according to the flesh crucified , the Lamb slain ; that flesh of his which is a Mystery , when the first Adam's and Eve's flesh was defiled , and so death reigned from Adam to Moses , pag 55. — And Pag. 57. So Adam's , Eve's flesh was defiled , but the flesh of Christ , the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world , yet his flesh never corrupted , which flesh is the offering ; for as he was God he did not dye ; and this flesh is a Mystery ; and in this fl●sh ( Note ) is the belief that takes away the sin , that never corrupted , that is the Offering for sin , and the Blood of this flesh cleanseth from sin , p. 58. — Now they that are in the belief of this fl●sh , and offering , sees over all offerings , to the beginning into the Glory which was with the Father before the world began ; for all outward Offerings and Sacrifices was given to man after he fell , and the Lamb slain ; which Offering is a Figure of Christ , the Seed to be brought forth and offered up , and he the Top stone over all laid , to end and finish all the outward Offerings , and Types , and Shadows , and in him there is none , Page 59. So through this Offering is the Reconciliation , through the offering of his flesh , that never corrupted , but takes away corruptions , and his Blood cleanseth from Corruptions the Life real . And so this pure Flesh , this Offering , is set over all , which never corrupted , which must be your meat if you live : Though there is more in all these things , which is hard to be uttered , and cannot be uttered Yet . Annot. It seems what G. Fox did not so fully utter as to this Mystery , George Whithead had a mind to utter in his Book called Light and Life , that may be as a proper Key to these dark Sayings of George Fox . If any object to me , as Th Elwood hath done in his Book falsly called Truth defended , That I have in some of my Books owned Christ's flesh and Blood within ; I answer , I confess it ; but no otherwise but in the Scripture sense , and by way of Allegory , and in Metaphor ; as when the Divine Life inwardly enjoyed in the Saints , is also called by way of Metaphor and Allegory , Bread , Wine , Oyl , Milk , Honey , M●rrow , and Fatness : But I no where remember that I ever said or writ , That the Life or Flesh of Christ within men is the Offering , the Atonement for sin . And if any can shew me any such Passage or Saying in any of my Books , I am most willing and ready to disown and retract it , and blame my Rashness in so saying ; but I know no such Passage in any of my Books . 4. In a Treatise of Oaths presented to the King and Parliament , 1675. recommended in a Preface to it , and the Reasons given in it , which Preface is signed by George Whithead , and William Penn , and Eleven more , and which Preface obligeth G. Whithead to confess that he owned the Contents of that Book at that time , otherwise he might be construed to put a Trick upon the whole Nation , it is expressly said , Page 17. N 7. We look upon it ( saith he and they ) to be no less than a presumptuous tempting of God , to summon him as a Witness , not only to our terrene but trivial business , such as we should doubtless account it an high Indignity always to sollicite an Earthly Prince to give his attendance about . What! make God , the Great God of Heaven and Earth our Caution in worldly Controversies ; as if we would bind him to obtain our ends , that is to make too bold with him , and to carry an undue distance in our minds towards him that made us ; an Irreverence we can by no means away with . But in flat Contradiction to this , there is an Epistle printed to the Friends called Quakers , within these few Weeks , in this present Year , 1696. that comes from the Meeting of Sufferings , signed by Benjamin Bealing , their Clerk to their Yearly Meeting . In which Epistle they say they give the Sense of Ancient Friends , George Fox , Edw. Burrough , Francis Hougel , W. Penn , and divers more , That Friends may use such solemn words , when called to declare the Truth , even in worldly matters , as , I do in the Presence of God declare , or calling God to record , or God is Witness . But if it be said that G. Whithead hath not signed that Epistle , so is not chargeable with that Contradiction ; I answer , So nor hath any other of the Ministry , not indeed any one but their Hireling Clerk : But it is well known that G. W. is a frequent Member of that Meeting of Sufferings , and hath been a main Instrument to persuade his Friends to give these Solemn Attestations , which he and many others ( I say not all ) judged unlawful , and forbidden by Christ , to use in cases of worldly affairs , as Recovery of just Debts , and the like . Nor will G. Whithead's hiding himself by not signing to this Epistle , and others concerned , but getting their Hireling Clerk to sign for them ( who for his Yearly Salary must do their Drudgery-Work ; and if fault be found afterwards with what is done , have this hole to creep out at , They did not sign it ) , be any Excuse for him or them , to clear them of such palpable Contradiction , or not varying from their former Principle . The only use I make of it , is to prove , That George Whitheaed ( as well as others of the Ancient Friends of the Ministry , have palpably contradicted their former Testimony , delivered in Print to King and Parliament , Anno 1675. and that in a very weighty matter ; and therefore they are not such infallible men as they have made their too credulous Followers think them to be , and have given out themselves for , charging all others to be no Ministers of Christ , if not infallible , as the above Narrative sheweth . But let none from this infer , that I blame them who in some weighty Cases , especially in declaring their Fidelity and faithful Subjection to the Government they are under , do use such solemn Attestations , or judge and condemn their liberty in so doing . But the Contradiction of George Whithead and some others to what they have formerly asserted very publickly , is that which I would have notified , and their great Hypocrisy still to pretend to Infallibility , and as if still they had never varied in their Principle in any thing ; and also charging G. K. with Apostacy , because I have declared . That in divers places and passages of my former Writings , I have found cause to make some Correction and Retractation ; God having been pleased of late years further to enlighten me , yet without any change of my Faith as to any one Article of the Christian Faith , so far as I know . Having done with G. Whithead at present , I shall next bring some two or three more unsound and scandalous Pass●ges for Proofs , out of William Penn's printed Books , to shew the unsoundness of his Doctrine in relation to Christ , his Flesh and his Bodily Existence without us in Heaven : And then take notice of some of his palpaple Contradictions to himself , though he would still make his credulous Followers ( that are much fewer than sometime ago they were ) believe he is the same infallible W. Penn. 1. In his Rejoinder to John Faldo , page 179 , 180. he greatly blames Sydrach Sympson , an Independent Preacher , for excommunicating Robert Norwood for his Opinion , which he , to wit , W. Penn himself , saith , Is not very offensive ; and he tells us what that Opinion is ; 1. For denying the Locality of Heaven and Hell , that is void of outward place , as looking upon them to have a more Spiritual signification ; and that the other was too Carnal , indeed Mahometan . 2. That he believed the Soul to have been breathed from God , thereby assigning to it more of Divinity than the usual Opinion doth . — Now that he saith this Ro. Norwood's Opinion is not very offensive , and so not to deserve Excommunication , it 's plain he thinks it not very offensive , to deny that Christ's Body that was raised from the dead , is in any Heaven , that is , an outward place , or without us ; which yet ( as I appeal to all sincere Christians ) is really so offensive , that the denying of that one Truth , is a plain denial of one of the greatest Fundamental Doctrines of the Christian Faith , and so makes void the whole , to any that holds such a damnable Opinion . And next , his excusing the said Robert Norwood , for assigning to the Soul something more of Divinity than the usual Opinion doth , is offensive and scandalous to Christian Ears : For though it should be owned , That the Divine Power that made the Soul of man , is in it , and operateth in it more manifestly than in the inferior Creatures ; yet the Soul of man is a created Being , and hath nothing of Divinity essential to it ; for that were to make it God himself . And whoever shall compare the Excommunication given out against Rob. Norwood by Sydrac Sympson , with the Excommunication given out against me by William Penn and Geo. Whithead at their Yearly Meeting , will say , if they be impartial men , William Penn has blamed that in another unjustly , which most unjustly he justifies in himself , and in his Tyrannical Brethren of his Party , who for no other cause did excommunicate me , but for not obeying their most unjust and unreasonable demand , which was , To clear the Body of the People called Quakers , and their Ministry , from some of the Errors charged upon them in Pensilvania ; which as I at that very Meeting told them , I could prove some of them were guilty of , and which I have since effectually done . And that William Penn thinks it was such a notable Argumentum ad hominem , that Rob. Norwood used to them who did excommunicate him , Are none the People of God but your selves ? Have not I the same Argumentum ad hominem , against them that excommunicated me ; who in their Nameless Bull of Excommunication , given out against me at the Yearly Meeting at London , 1695. call themselves the Church of Christ , from which ( they say ) I have separated my self ? And because I could not obey their most unjust and unreasonable Demand , they pass this Judgment against me , as if they were the only Church of Christ ; and in their Yearly Epistle this very year 1696. directed to the Quarterly and Monthly Meetings in England , Wales , and elsewhere , they call themselves ( to wit , those that generally go under the Name Quakors , professing Unity with them ) God's whole Heritage and People ; this agreeth with Solomon Eccles Paper , called , The Quakers Challenge , p. 2 , 3. 1668. The Quakers are in Truth , and none but they . The Tabernacle of God is with you , and his Dwelling Place is among you , and only among you is God known , said Edw. Burrough to the Quakers ; see his Works , page 64. 2. In the same Rejoinder , page 310. he hath a Passage that is either perfect Nonsense , or Antichristian Doctrine , or rather indeed both . I shall cite it verbatim . Seventhly , Because that Flesh of Christ is called a Vail , but he himself is within the Vail , which is the Holy of Holiest , whereinto Christ Jesus our High-Priest hath entred , Heb. 10.20 , 21. And as he descended into , and past through a suffering-state in his fleshly appearance , and returned into that state of Immortality , and Eternal Life and Glory , from whence he humbled himself , which was and is the Holy of Holiest ( then obscured or hid by his Flesh or Body , the Vail while in the world ) so must all know a death to their fleshly ways and Religions , yea their knowledge of Christ himself after the flesh , or they stick in the Vail , and never enter into the Holy of Holies , nor come to know him in any spiritual relation , as their High and Holy Priest , that abides therein . Annot. I shall make no large Commentary on these words , only in short note , 1. His saying Christ has entred into the Holy of Holies within the Vail , and that Vail is his Flesh , and that Holy of Holies is himself ; What Nonsense is this ? Was not Christ always in himself ? 2. His entring in within the Vail of his Flesh is either perfect Nonsense , or it hath this sense , That he hath put off his Body he had on earth , and is separated from it ; as one Robert Young , a Preacher among the Quakers in Pensilvania , at a Meeting affirmed , and brought these very words of W. Penn's to confirm it , That Christ hath entred within the Vail , and Christ's flesh is that Vail ; whereas it is plain , and generally understood by all Christians , That the Vail within which Christ is entred , according to Heb. 6.19 . is not his flesh ; though elsewhere , but in another respect , his flesh is called a Vail , the word Vail having divers significations in Scripture . 3. That he saith , That all must know a death to their knowledge of Christ after the flesh ; it is plain from his words , that he hath this unsound sense of it . That they must know a death to the knowledge of Christ after the flesh , as that flesh signifieth the flesh of Christ , as he came in the flesh . But this is a perversion of Paul's words , as if Paul had rejected the knowledge of Christ as he came and suffered in the flesh , as inconsistent with the revelation of Christ in himself ; which are so consistent , that as none have the saving knowledge of Christ as he came and suffered in the flesh , without the inward revelation of him in their hearts , so none have that inward revelation of him , sufficient to Eternal Salvation , but who by that inward revelation know and believe that he came and suffered in the flesh , and that he is now in Heaven , in the same Body that suffered , the same , I say , as to Substance , though wonderfully changed in Mann●r and Condition . 3. W P. in a Book he calleth Truth exalted , presented to Princes , Priests , and People , reprinted Anno 1671. he giveth a large description of the Quakers Christ , as he calleth him , pag. 13 , 14. without mentioning in the least his Birth in the flesh , Death , Resurrection , Ascension , as the Son of Man , or the Son of Abraham and David ; and wholly applying that , Isaiah 9.6 , 7. Unto us a child is born ; and Deut. ●1 . 18 A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up , to the Inward Principle of the Light in all men ; and thus he describeth the Quakers Christ , pag. 14. This is the second Adam , the quickening Spirit , the Lord from Heaven , the new and spiritual man , the Heavenly Bread , the true Vine , the Flesh and Blood that was given for the Life of the World , the second Covenant , the Law writ in the Heart and Spirit ▪ put in the inward parts , the way in which the fool cannot err , the Truth before Deceit was , the Life that 's hid in God , eternal in the Heavens , glorified before the world began , the Power , the Wisdom , the Righteousness of God , the Plant of Renown , the Royal Seed that bruiseth the Serpent's head ; in short , that Grace which hath appeared unto all men , teaching them to deny Ungodliness , &c. Annot. By this it is plain he makes nothing of Christ , but an inward Principle in all men , which yet falsly he calls the second Covenant , the Law written in the heart ; for the Law writ in the heart , that is , the second Covenant , is not in any Unbelievers , but only in the hearts of True Believers . Again , in his large description of the Christian Quaker , filling Three Pages of his Folio called the Christian Quaker , he mentions not one word of Christ , as he was born of the Virgin , suffered death for our sins , rose again , &c. as the Object of Faith , Hope , or Love , or Christian Devotion ; see his Pages , 125 , 126 , 127. By which it plainly appears that he , and G Whithead , and many other Teachers among the Quakers , have no other Notion of Christ , but an Inward Principle ; which is manifestly contrary to the Gospel preached by the Holy Prophets , Evangelists , and Apostles , who preached Christ chiefly without men , as both God and Man , and consequentially his Light , and Grace , and Spirit within men . I shall now point at some of W. Penn's most gross and palpable Contradictions . 1. His first Contradiction . In the Treatise of Oaths above-mentioned , signed particularly by William Penn , he is earnest against all Oaths under the Gospel ; and yet in his Reason against Railing he useth the greatest Oath that ever was used among the Jews , to wit , As God liveth , or The Lord liveth ; which was the form of their Oath , as is clear from many places of Scripture , but particularly Jerem 4.2.5.2 . Now let us hear how he himself hath practically used this Oath against Thomas Hicks , pag. 180. O that these heavy things might not be laid to thy charge , for so sure as God liveth great will be the Wrath that shall follow , yea , God will visit for these unrighteous dealings ; and I testify to thee from God's Living Spirit , if thou desist not , and come not to deep Repentance , the Lord will make thee an Example of his Fury , and thy head shall not go down to the Grave in Peace ; and by this shalt thou know that not a Lying or Delusive , but a True and Infallible Spirit hath spoken by me . Annot. These words imply some Prophecy that W. Penn thought he had from the Infallible Spirit of God , against Tho. Hicks , importing he should be made an Example of his Fury : But they that saw Tho. Hicks dye , and knew him living , say , nothing of this was fulfilled , nor did any thing extraordinary , as any Example of Divine Fury happen to Tho. Hicks either before he died , or at his death . 2. His second Contradiction is this ; In the Book called Judas and the Jews , pag 13. owned and signed by W. Penn , he thus glosseth on Matth 18.17 . Go tell the Church , That Christ as well gave his Church Power to reject , as to try Spirits , is not hard to prove ; that Notable Passage , Go tell the Church , does it to our hand ; for if in case of private Offence betwixt Brethren , the Church is made Absolute Judge , from whom there is no Appeal in this world , how much more in any the least case that concerns the Nature , Being , Faith , and Worship of the Church her self ? Annot. This he spoke with respect to the Quakers Church , whose Power he so mightily extols , that she is made Absolute Judge , from whom there is no Appeal in this world . But having to do with the Church of England , or any other Church of them called Protestants , we shall see how he makes a contradictory Gloss on the same Text , Matth. 18.17 . Go tell the Church . In his Address to Protestants , second Edition , p. 152. he saith , But what then can be the meaning of Christ's words , Go tell the Church ? Very well , I answer , It 's not about Faith , but Injury , that Christ speaks ; and the place explains it self ; Moreover , If thy brother shall trespass against thee , go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone ; here is Wrong , not Religion ; Injustice , not Faith or Conscience concerned , as some would have it , to maintain their Church-Power . Annot. Here you see he makes the Church-Power very low as by Church he means the Church of England , or any other Church besides the Church of the Quakers . But when he means the Church of the Quakers from the same Text , he magnifies her Power as great as ever Bellarmine or any other Jesuit magnified the Church of Rome . She ( to wit , the Quakers Church , otherwise tell us what other Church he means ) is made Absolute Judge , from whom there is no Appeal in this world . Then be sure , if W. Penn can prevail to keep up this Authority in the Quakers Church , neither G Keith , nor any other against whom that he calleth the Church , to wit , the Yearly Meeting at London , hath passed any Sentence , however unjust , must expect to have any Relief or Redress in this world . Well , It is a great Comfort that we may expect it in the world to come . If this be not to play the Ambidexter ( a Crime T. Elwood unjustly casteth on me in another case ) I know not what is . 3. His Third Contradiction is this . In his Address to Protestants , second Edition , pag. 246. he saith , Men that are angry for God , passionate for Christ ▪ that can call Names for Religion , and sling Stones for Faith , may tell us they are Christians if they will , but no body would know them to be such by their fruits ; to be sure they are no Christians of Christ's making . Annot. One would think this man would be far from giving hard Names to any that differ from him in Religious Matters , and that he would be one of the civilest men on earth , for softly and gently treating his Opponents . But instead thereof , I know not if ever I read or heard more angry and passionate words , and more und●cent and unbecoming any man , either Christian or sober Heathen , than William Penn hath given to his Opponents , and such as he hath differed from in Religious Matters ; witness what he saith in his Guide mistaken , p. 18. 1668 The old Gormandizing Priests of England . — No sort of people have been so universally through Ages the Bane of Soul and Body of the Universe , as that abominable Tribe , for whom the Theatre of God's most dreadful Vengeance is reserved to act their eternal Tragedy upon Again , in his Quakerism a new Nickname , &c. p. 165. he saith , But in the earth there is not any thing so phant●stical , conceited , proud , railing , busy-body , and sometimes ignorant , as a sort of Priests , to us not unknown , among whom our Adversary ( viz. John Faldo , an Independent Preacher ) is not the least , who think their Coat will bear out their worst Expressions for Religion ; and practise an haughty Reviling for Christ , as one of the greatest demonstrations of their Zeal ; an Ill bred and Pedentick Crew , the Bane of Reason , and Pest of the World , the old Incendi●ries to mischief , and the best to be spared of Mankind ; against whom the boiling Vengeance of an irritated God is rea●ly to be poured out , to the destruction of such if they repent not , and turn from their abominable Deceits . Annot. Seeing the only Reason that was given at the Meeting at Turner's Hall the 11th of this Instant , 1696. by one of William Penn's Party , why they excommunicated George Keith , having nothing either against his Doctrine or Conversation among men , but that he was ( as he was pleased to call me ) a little petulant , and turbulent Man ; and that they have aggravated some few words I gave to some professed Infidels among us in Pensilvania , to that height , as deserving Excommunication : Let the Impartial Reader judge , whether W. Penn has not far exceeded me , and that incomparably , ( for I thank God I have not the faculty to invent such words ) as well as George Whithead hath also done , in calling some that but differed from him about Womens Meetings , and Church Orders of G. Fox Incarnate Devils , Wolves , Dogs , in his Preface to Judgment Fixed , 1682. Behold therefore their Injustice and Partiality , for when did they ever so much as censure either of them for such scurrilous , abusive Language , or any others that have used the like ? Nay , of all people on the face of the Earth , many of the Preachers and Writers among the Quakers , that I know of , have been most guilty in this thing , and doubled this guiltiness in fathering these sinful Words , and their sinful Passion on the Spirit of God , as W. Penn did , when he called me Apostate , and Impostor , for defending Christian Doctrine common to all Christendom , saying , He was transported by the Glorious Power of God. For my own part , wherein I have at any time either in word or Writ exceeded in giving any uncharitable Names to any , or in any uncharitable practise or behaviour , I declare I am sorry for it , and have begged , and do beg God's forgiveness for it , for his dear Son's sake , and also the forgiveness of any whom I have at any time justly offended in Words or behaviour ; and I bless God , who has taught me more patience by the late Exercises I have gone through of the strife of Tongues ; and I hope I can in measure say , that I witness that place of Scripture fulfilled , That tribulation worketh patience , and patience experience ; and this I have divers times acknowledged to my late Adversaries , who have made ill use of it against me , but I never knew they made any such acknowledgment to any , I am sure never to me , whom they have most unworthily abused both by Word and Pen. And now before I have quite done with William Penn , let me put him in mind of his Promise , That he would answer me in the face of the Nation ; for I think I have made good my word , that I have put him to prove his Charge against me ( that I am an Apostate ) in the face of the Nation ; and let him not put off this Work that belongs to himself , to any Deputy , or busy Intruder , as Th. Elwood , or John Pennington , who have already sufficiently shewn their folly in print ; but let him perform his Promise by himself , and also remind his words in his Christian Quaker , pag. 1. who saith , I was not willing that any should answer for my faults , if any there were ; and if innocent , I osteemed my self both sufficient and obliged to my own relief . Some of Tho. Elwood his Vile and Gross Errors ; truly collected out of his Book , falsly called , Truth Defended . I Shall pass by at present his many Forgeries , and Perversions , and Abuses against me in this his last Book , and his two former Books ; to the first of which I have answered in print , having collected out of his two last Abusive Books above an hundred manifest Perversions , Forgeries , and Falsities he hath heaped up against me , which I have in readiness to shew , and which I keep by me for a reserve , until I find an occasion to publish them , either by print , or otherwise ; therefore I shall only now make an Index of some of his Vile and Gross Errors contained in his last Book , called Truth Defended . 1. The Blood that came out of Christ's Side , its shedding , was not done to compleat the Offering , because , before that , Christ said , Consummatum est , it is finished , p. 99. Note , this is as much against his Death , for before his Death he said , it is finished . 2. He justifies George Whithead's Doctrine and Words , denying that the material Blood of the Beasts were Types of Christ's material Blood , and yet fallaciously seems to own it , p. 106. 3. He justifies W ▪ Penn's Doctrine ; saying , The one Seed cannot be an outward thing ; for one outward thing cannot be the proper sign of another outward thing ; p. 113. 4. He denieth that the gift of the Divine Grace or Power within , is the real Purchase of Christ's Obedience unto death ; arguing , That if so , that would not be the free Gift of God , p. 121. This is contrary to Rom. 5.15 . Eph. 1.14 . and 4.7 , 8 compared with Psal . 68.18 . 5. He blames me for saying Christ's Body is the same in substance it was on Earth , p. 129. now if not the same in substance , then that Body he had on Earth is not in being , or he must hold the Doctrine of Transubstantiation in that case . 6. He denieth that Christ came by Generation of , and from the Properties of Man in Mary , p. 136. and in so doing , he must deny him to be the Son of David and Abraham . 7. He perverteth the Apostle's Creed , in that Clause ; Conceived of the Holy Ghost , p. 138. by which he infers , that Christ came not by Generation of ▪ and from the Properties of Man in Mary ; and in so doing , he makes the Holy Ghost to be the material Cause of that Generation ; as if that Holy Thing conceived , were of the Substance of the Holy Ghost ; whereas the Holy Ghost was the efficient Cause thereof , but not the material Cause . 8. His false way of reasoning against the Man Christ's being created , from my reasoning , if not created , therefore not Man ; by retorting , if created , therefore not God ; and in this he chargeth me to be deeply drenched into Socinianism , but this is his ignorance . This is as foolish as to argue , A. B. is no English Man , therefore is no Man ; whereas it is good arguing , A. B. is no Man , therefore no English Man ; the Socinian Error is not , that Christ is a Creature , but that he is a meer Creature , viz. only Man , and not both God and Man , p. 139. 9. His blaming me , to make light of the work of Generation in comparison of Christ's Incarnation ; therefore according to him , Regeneration is greater than Christ's Incarnation . Oh great Blasphemy ! pag. 155. 10. His saying , That the Author of Regeneration is Christ chiefly , as he is manifested inwardly in the heart , p. 152. This is as absurd , as to say , The Beams of the Sun that descend on the Earth , are the chief cause of the Earth's fruitfulness , and not the Sun it self that is in the Firmament . My answer to John Pennington's Book , falsly called , An Apostate Exposed : In his said Book he brings no matter against me , either as to Doctrine or Life ; but sets down some Citations out of my Books , and the Doctrine in all these Citations I own . But that I thought it had been the Doctrine of the Quakers in general , and of George Whithead and William Penn in particular ; in that I own my mistake ; but this is no contradiction , or proof of my Apostacy ; for I did not positively say , they had no Errors , but according to the best of my knowledge they had no Errors ; this is no contradiction ; for Contradictions ( according to that true Maxim ) are secundum idem , ad idem eodem loco , tempore & ratione . But he hath not so much either Logick or common Sense to understand , that this is no contradiction , or what a true Contradiction is , as neither his quondam Tutor Tho. Elwood hath . As concerning Caleb Pusey his Book , falsly called , His Modest Account ; I have a full Answer to it in readiness , but there is no present need of its publication . But let it be noticed , that my Adversaries have owned it , as having unity with it ; and no doubt it was approved by the 2d Days meeting . I only at present note these few gross things in it . First , He mis-states the Question , which was not , That the Light within is sufficient for Salvation , without something else ; for the Light within , or Grace within Paul and Peter , &c. is sufficient to Salvation , without thousands of some things else , as without thousands of Caleb Puseys , and all of us ; but not without the Man Christ without us . But the true state of the Question was , and is , That whereas they blamed my Assertion , viz. The Light within is not sufficient to Salvation , without something else . They are obliged to hold the Contradictory , which is , The Light within is sufficient to Salvation , without any , or every thing else ; true Contradictions being betwixt the one Particular , the other Universal ; but it hath been my Lot to have to do generally with such ignorant Men of late in dispute , that know not either by true Logick or common Sense , what a true Contradiction is . 2. Page 8. His false quotation of my words , citing my Book called ▪ A Refutation , pag ▪ 38 , 39. where he brings me in saying , It is a real degree of Blasphemy to say , This Light cannot make Satisfaction , &c. But I use no such words , therefore this is a gross Forgery , which I charge upon the Second day's Meeting ; for in all that Treatise I neither said nor intented any thing of the Light within making Satisfaction ; for the Question there treated of by me , was not about Satisfaction , but Revelation , what the Light within could reveal . And I was so far from affirming , the Light within , as we give Obedience to it , to make any Satisfaction for our sins , that I plainly said , pag. 41. ad finem , That man's most exact Obedience to the Light in him , cannot be an Atonement or Propitiation unto God for sins past or present . 3. His Fallacy or Forgery , pag. 12. in feigning a Contradiction on me , concerning the express Knowledge of Christ , necessary , and not necessary ; whereas I never said it was universally necessary , but only to such who have the occasion to hear it preach'd ; therefore I distinguished betwixt the Express and Implicit , saying this last was universally necessary , the former only to Particulars . 4. Pag. 15. His most gross Assertion , which is justly charged on the Second day's Meeting ( who have approved his Antichristian Book ) , That surely Jesus of Nazareth cannot be something else than the Light , Spirit , and Power within : For at this rate the Jews who own and confess to the Light within , and Pagan Philosophers who blasphemed against the Man Jesus of Nazareth , yet confessing to the Light within , may be said to confess Jesus of Nazareth ; and if Jesus of Nazareth be not something else than the Light within , then it is in vain to preach any Christ without , that was born at Bethlehem , and conversed at Nazareth . But he is guilty of gross Forgery , to infer it from my words : He says , pag. 14. The Word only is alone , and admits of nothing else ; but I answer , It admits not of another Christ , but it admits of something of Christ without us , that is not within us ; as Christ that died for us is the only Saviour ; this only admits not of another Saviour , or Christ , within us , yet it admits of something of Christ within us , that was not outwardly crucified , viz. His Grace and Spirit . As concerning the pretended Confession of Faith , called , Our Ancient Testimony renewed , of our Adversaries from Pensilvania , subscribed by Caleb Pusey , and above Thirty six more , though the Scripture-Words as therein recited , we own , yet seeing they ( and particularly he ) who have differed from us in Pensilvania , have declared a contrary sense to all these Places of Scripture touching the things in Controversy betwixt us , and have neither in that Confession , nor elsewhere , renounced their former Errors , whereof they have been proved guilty , their Confession is but a mere Sham , and Mock-Confession . G. K. ERRATA . Page 17. line 7. for Days read Words . Page 48. line 44. read clear me . A Sermon preached at the Meeting of Protestant Dissenters , called Quakers , in Turners-Hall , London ; on the 16 th . of the Second Month , 1696. Being the Publick Day of Thanksgiving for the Deliverance of the King and Kingdom . By George Keith . To which is added , A Testimony of Fidelity and Subjection to King William the Third , from the aforesaid People , on behalf of themselves , and others of the same Persuasion with them . Printed for B. Aylmer at the Three Pigeons in Cornhill . THE General History of the Quakers ; containing the Lives , Tenents , Sufferings , Tryals , Speeches , Letters , and Travels , of all the most Eminent Quakers , both Men and Women , from the first Rise of that Sect , down to this present time . Collected from Manuscripts , &c. A Work never attempted before in English ; being written originally in Latin by Gerard Croese , and now made publick against their present Yearly Meeting in London . To which is added , Fox's Conference with Oliver Cromwell . The Tryals and dying Speeches of the Quakers executed in New-England . An Account of their Marriages and Burials . A Quaker's Letter to King Charles II. charging him with several vile Practices . Keith's Learned Speech at his Tryal in Pensilvania . The Tryals of Mead and Pen. Pen's Speech to the Judges . His Conference with the Princess Palatine . His Sermon before Her. The Princess's Letter to Geo. Fox . Margaret Fox's Letter to a General Meeting of Women , held at London in the year 1692. A very particular Account of the Women Preachers . Hester Bidly's Speech to the late Queen Mary . Her Entertainment at Versailles by King James . Her Letter to the French King. Her Discourses with him . The great Sufferings of two Quaker Women in the Island Malta . The Rarity of Mary Fisher's Voyage to Adrianople . The Audience given this Maiden Quaker by the Grand Signior . The Present State of the Quakers . As also a Letter writ by George Keith , and sent by him to the Reverend Author of this Book ; containing a Vindication of himself , and several Remarks upon this curious History . Price Bound 5 s. Printed for John Dunton at the Raven in Jewen-Street . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A47140-e2080 † Note , There is an additional Postscript by me G. K. put to this Book of G. W. Nature of Christianity , the which Postscript I left in a Manuscript at London , and with the Quakers , printed with this of G. W. I acknowledg my want of due Consideration that I did not better consider G. W. his Words in that Book , having many Years ago read it , but too overly , and not having seen it since , for many Years , till of late : but I am sure I did really then believe , ( as I now do ) that Christ as Man did outwardly and bodily exist without us ; for Proof of which see my Words in that additional Postscript above-mentioned , p. 73. where at n. 11. I blame R. G. for saying , That the now present glorified Existence of that Body ( or Man Christ ) that suffered at Jerusalem , is denied by some Teachers among us . I confess I happened to find divers Passages in G. W.'s , and other Quakers Books , that seemed to me unsound ; but in an Excess of Charity I did construe them to be better meant than worded , and that they had rather unwarily slipped from them , than that they were the Expressions of their unsound Mind , until that of late I had found them to justify the same , and the like unsound Words , in my Adversaries in Pensilvania , and to hate and excommunicate me for telling them of them . * And by this same Argument they need not preach his Example of holy Life , nor the Example of the holy Lives of the Patriarchs , Prophets and Apostles , nor the Creation of the World , nor any of God's gracious Providences towards his Church and People in former Ages , they all being past , and Persons not to live again in Mortal Bodies . But why do the Quakers labour to keep up the the Remembrance of their deceased Friends , and their Works and Sayings , and collect them in Print for Posterity ? Is not the keeping in Memory the Birth , Life , Death and Resurrection , &c. of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ infinitely of more Value to be remembred ? and what is the way to have it remembred ( according to God's ordinary manner of working ) if not by preaching ? O what great Blindness and Ignorance is this of W. Penns ! * See his and my Answer to the Students in Aberdeer , called Quakerism confirmed , in the Collection of his Works , called , Truth triumphant , pag. 627. Prop. 3. we say , That the same Seed and Life is in us which was in him , ( viz. the Man Christ ) and is in him in the Fulness , as Water in the Spring , and in us as the Stream . — As the natural Life is in all the Members , but more principally in the Head and Heart , without any Division ; so this spiritual Life and Nature is both in Christ our Head , and in us , by which he dwelleth in us , as the Spirit of Man doth in the Body . Again , p. 628. Prop. 10. As for the Satisfaction of Chritst without us , we own it against the Socinians , &c. And pag. 629. The Doctrines of the Incarnation , Sufferings , Death and Resurrection of Christ , &c. are necessary every where to be preached : See the Places at more length , than which nothing can be more contradictory than W. Penn's Doctrine , as will appear in divers Places in this Treatise , from his own Words faithfully quoted out of his Books . ‖ This Writer is J. Reuclinus de verbo mirifico , lib. 3. cap. 2. Gal. 3.16 . ‖ But is not the Serpent or Devil without Men as well as within many Men ? (a) See W. Penn's Rejoynder , pag. 284. And G. W. Light and Life , p. 44. (b) See his Book , pag. 35. called , The Capital Principles . (c) It is no more Nonsense than many good Christian Teachers have used , to expound and open the Types of the Old Testament , and to shew how they directed to Christ , the Antitype ; yea , divers Quakers Preach the Types as directing to Christ and his Spirit within : And G. Fox used much to Preach upon the Types of the Old Testament , as the Booths they made at the Feast of Tabernacles , and the Lamps in the Temple , and the Snuffers , how they had a Spiritual signification . And shall any Christian say , that none of these Types signified Christ without , but only Christ within ? (d) See for this in the Church-History of Socrates Scholasticus , lib. 2. c. 7. and c. 25. (e) Note , The Meeting was for most part orderly and attentive ; if any little Disorder happened , it was by occasion of W. Pen's Party , and particularly by Henry Goldney that threw printed Papers among the People , in the Meeting , on purpose to make a Disturbance ; but what Disturbance happened , it was soon ended by the Care and Diligence of the Marshal , sent by the Lord Mayor , to prevent any Disorders . (f) Note here two Gods of one Kind and Nature , by his absurd Logick and false Philosophy ; one that worketh , another that is wrought . Oh gross Darkness and Ignorance in G. Whitehead ! (g) The Saints are partakers of the Divine Nature , and so are they of the Holy Ghost ; is therefore the Holy Ghost a Work or Effect wrought in us ? This is to comfound the Creator with the Creature , and is a Divinity more fit for Bedlam than any sober Society of People . (h) And in Egypt we hear that Chickens are bred of Eggs simply by heat , without the Hen. (i) N. Marks doth not profess himself to be Infallible , being not of the Ministry : But whence is it , that the Laicks should own themselves Fallible , and the Min●stry Infallible ? But at last it is come to this , that some of the Ministry are Fallible also , but such Principal Ministers as G. W. are not . (a) Tho some in Scotland , being influenced with their false reports , have seemed to disown me , yet others have not , and some of them have writ kindly to me , and owned me . (a) Arthur Cook a Preacher and Justice of Peace in Pensilvania . (b) Too high a Title for such who are quilty of such gross Errors . (c) The third was , 〈◊〉 they blamed me , for saying the best Saints had need to come alwa●s to God by the 〈◊〉 ●or the Man Christ Jesus , they said , They could come to God with●ut him , and this 〈◊〉 of Doctrine is to be found in W. Shewen's Book , a Quaker greatly owned by them . Treatise of Thoughts , see pag. 37.38 . (a) And I was cleared by a publick Writ , signed by the Deputy Governor , C. Markham , and the Counsel , in Philadelphia , which I have to show . See the Nature of Ch. pag. 29. * The real Quaker . A real Protestant . Nature of Christian . p. 29 * G. Keith doth not charge it on the whole , but only on the Guilty , and such as cloak and excuse them . * Note , They told me , It was sufficient to name a Few of Many , to prove T. E. guilty of wronging me in his Books . Let the Quotations be read out of R. B's Anarc . * There is not mentioned , any Day , Month or Year wherein the yearly Meeting at Philad . was held . (a) Note , W. Penn ( as is proved ) hath said , We need not preach it , the necessary consequence whereof is , They need not believe it . (b) So nor have they answer'd my Book , Gross Error and Hypocrisie detected ; nor my Book against Samuel Jennings . So here are Two for Two : But I think I have effectually answer'd them here , as to the main , and so , I hope , will many others judge . (c) I call it not G. Keith's Church , otherwise than as related to them as one of them ; as I call the other their Church , N. Mark 's Church , i. e. to which he is related ; but he did well to own his Fallibility , seeing he gave so great a Proof of it not long ago , by severely accusing a poor innocent Maid-servant of his of Theft , whose Innocency soon after was manifest to him . Notes for div A47140-e19540 * Called the Christian Faith. 
A65861	----	The dipper plung'd, or, Thomas Hicks his feigned dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker, proved, an unchristian forgery consisting of self-contradictions, and abuses against the truth, and people called Quakers : wherein Tho. Hicks hath seconded (though in envy exceeded) his brother Henry Grigg, in his babylonish pamphlet, stiled, Light from the sun of righteousness : howbeit, they have both notoriously contradicted themselves, and each other, as is hereby evinced / by G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1672 Approx. 36 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 10 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65861 Wing W1923 ESTC R20065 12291380 ocm 12291380 58899 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65861) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58899) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:15) The dipper plung'd, or, Thomas Hicks his feigned dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker, proved, an unchristian forgery consisting of self-contradictions, and abuses against the truth, and people called Quakers : wherein Tho. Hicks hath seconded (though in envy exceeded) his brother Henry Grigg, in his babylonish pamphlet, stiled, Light from the sun of righteousness : howbeit, they have both notoriously contradicted themselves, and each other, as is hereby evinced / by G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 19 p. s.n.], [London : 1672. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Hicks, Thomas, 17th cent. -- Dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Dipper Plung'd OR , Thomas Hicks his Feigned Dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker ; Proved , An Unchristian Forgery , Consisting Of Self-Contradictions , and Abuses against the Truth , and People called QUAKERS . Wherein Tho. Hicks hath Seconded ( though in Envy Exceeded ) his Brother Henry Grigg , in his Babylonish Pamphlet , stiled , Light from the Sun of Righteousness : Howbeit , they have both Notoriously Contradicted themselves , and each other , as is hereby Evinced . BY G. W. Professing Themselves to be Wise , they became Fools . Rom. 1.22 . Printed in the Year , 1672. Unprejudiced Reader ; WHereas T. Hicks , reputed an Eminent Brother of Wil. Kiffin's , hath lately divulg'd his Pamphlet ( which we have been Threatned with for a considerable Time before ) stiled , A Dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker : his thereby not only Deceitfully feigning himself a Christian , but falsly insinuating against the Quakers ( so called ) as being no Christians , is not so strange or uncouth a Forgery ( since the Baptists Malice is so high against them ) as while he is presenting the world with a Quaker , with his Method and manner of Reasoning ; he is only a Quaker of his own making and forming , to speak as he pleaseth ( for his own Corrupt Ends and Advantage ) those Impertinencies and Falshoods , never utter'd by any Real Quaker . Tho. Hicks's said Dialogue is a meer Malicious Forgery and Fiction , stuff'd with Manifest Slanders and Abuses , both against Persons and Principles ; perverting them , and their words : In many things , Personating the Quakers with his own Ridiculous Falshoods & Consequences ; together with scornful Canting Language , and Ridiculous Contradictions and Inconsistencies ; which surely will add no Credit to the Baptists Cause , nor Convict others : Whilst he pretends to act a Christian and a Quaker as opposit , he Antickly Abuses Christianity , and Scoffs at the Light and Life of Religion ; who , when he Scurrilously acts a Quaker , he himself is that Nonsensical Quaker ; who hath designedly forg'd his Dialogue to his own Fancy , so as not to puzzle himself with Problemes to be s●ure . This Feign'd ( though Out-side Dipt ) Christian-Quaker , while he feigns his Opposer , and frames the Contest , hee 'l have it after his own Fashion , that he may , with Contempt and Insulting deal with all Objections and Questions of his own coyning : How deeply soever this man be Outwardly Plung'd , hee 's yet Unchristened ; and all the Water in Thames will not Wash his Defiled Conscience . But for these Dippers , and Particular Electioners , to Revile and Belye their Neighbours in Print ( in this Time of Liberty ) is no New or Strange Thing , whilst ( upon their Partial Opinion of Election ) they believe themselves secure from the Reward of Lyars , Rev. 21.8 . by their Conceited Personal Election , Unchangeably Design'd from Eternity ; in which they ( viz. Baptists , and their Followers ) must only be the Sharers , if all that Oppose their Dipping be Accurst ; according to their old Brother , Hen. Grigg's Fatal Sentence , in his Book against his Sister , p. 24. This their partial Conceit of an Eternal Personal Election of Themselves , and of but very Few ( if any ) besides ; and Blasphemously Imagining such severe Partiality against God , as that from all Eternity he has Particularly Design'd , either the Reprobation , or Preterition of the Greatest Part of Mankind , thereby leaving them to Inevitable Destruction : this Sad Sentence is one main Ground of these Men's Inveighing so eagerly against the General Extent of Saving Grace to all Mankind , and of their Opposing the Sufficiency of the True Light in all men , which God hath freely given them : But how Consistent they are in their Work herein , I refer to the Impartial Reader to judge of , in what ●ollows in Tho. Hicks's own words , Collected and Cited out of his said Dialogue , and briefly Animadvertized . Thomas Hicks his Assertions Contradicted by the same Tho. Hicks himself . HE pretends to Query , Not to Cavil , but to understand the Truth — and if Demonstrated — to be very willing to Subscribe to it , page 2. But in Contradiction he saith , All I intend is , only th● Conviction and Recovery , p. 10. He pretends the Conviction of Others , whilst he wants it , and is to seek for a Right Understanding for himself . Tho. Hicks saith , Notwithstanding thy most Diligent Attendance to the Light in thee : That which thou call'st the Light in thee , hath in many things Mis●guided thee , p. 3. Tho. Hicks in Contradiction saith , I Appeal to the Light in thee — I grant it ought to be Obeyed , p. 7. Animadversion , See how palpably he Contradicts himself ; as much as to say , It is a Mis-Guiding Light ; and yet , it is such ( a True Rule ) as to be Appealed to , and Obeyed . T. H. That which any of you have said ( viz. concerning the Light within every man ) hath been no more then what the Apostle speaks of the Man of Sin , 2 Thes. 2.9 . and what may as well prove Mahomet to be the True Christ , as the Light in you , p. 11 , 12. T. H. Contrad . How could you call the Light within Christ , if some Scriptures had not mention'd Christ in you , and that he is the Life and Light of Men ? the Scriptures must be your Rule for this , pag 22. Anim. Gross Contradiction : I●s Blasphemy to Compare Chri●t to th● M●n of ●in , or Him , or his Life ( which is the Light of Men ) to Ma●o●et . Th●t 〈◊〉 Ob●y the Commands of the Living Ete●nal Word in , us . In Answer to this T. Hicks saith , It s no other then a meer Mystical Romance , p. 10. T. H. Contrad . It will be our Wisdom , yea , our Duty , not only to attend to the Light Within , &c. p. 13. Anim. Thou T. H. hast acted the Prophane Romancer , and Irreligious Miscreant against the Light of Christ Within ; which yet thou art made to confess it ( in part , at least ) our Duty to attend to it . T. H. The Scriptures are the Word of God , and the Rule of Faith , pag. 17. T. H. Contrad . True ; the Sayings of the Devil , and Wicked Men , are part of God's History — God hath , by the Holy Pen-Men , given us this Relation of the Words of the Devil and Wicked Men , p. 18. Anim. The Word of God and the Words of the Devil are not the same , to be sure : Christ is the Word ; the Scriptures are Writings , containing words of God and Holy Men. T.H. The Word of God ( the Scriptures are ) the Sword of the Spirit , p. 18 , & 87. the Rule of Faith and Practice , to Obliege your Faith and Practice — The Grounds of Faith and Hope , p. 19. T. H. Contrad . This Rule must be the Will of God Revealed to us — for 't is the Will of God which is the Formal Reason of the Obligation : The Will of God being the Ground of the Creation of Men and Angels ; therefore , as it is the Ground of their Being , it must be the Rule of their Acting , p. 31. Anim. But the Scriptures were neither the Ground of the Creation , nor of the Being of either Men or Angels ; but the Eternal Powerful Will and Word of God , which Only and Effectually Obligeth the Soul to Him. T. H. I will suppose thee to be a Holy Man — The Best Thing in thee cannot be the Rule , p. 20. Answ. A Gross Error : The Spirit of God can be the Rule , both in Power , and Living Instruction ( and that Above the Scriptures ) for it can both Lead into all Truth , and bring forth Living Fruits , and Acceptable Duty to God. T. H. All things necessary to be Believed and Practiced , with Respect to Eternal Life , is contained in these Holy Scriptures , and in no other Record in the World , either without , or within Men , p. 20. Answ. Yet thou hast confest , Christ in you , and the Spirit of God , p. 21 , 22. See how thou art in Confusion : Christ contains more then the Scriptures ; for , in him are all the Hidden Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge . But this thy Undervaluing Christ , and his Light Within , and the Spirit 's sufficiency , is plainly Contradicted in what follows . T. H. Indeed , 't is not to be Deny'd , but that Man was alwayes under an Obligation of a Rule ; that God's Soveraignity over him , and his Inferiority unto God might be acknowledged , p. 31. Answ. By MAN , must be understood , Mankind in general ▪ or else thou Dissemblest : If then man was alwayes under such an Obligation , God hath afforded that Light or Rule to all Men ( even to those Nations that have not the Scriptures ) which is sufficient to Direct them to himself : and this Concession destroys much of thy Work. T. H. That of God in my Conscience is not sufficient , meerly of it self ▪ to Direct me in those things needful to be Known , Believed and Practiced , p. 21. T. H. Contrad . Some Scriptures mentioned , Christ in you , p. 22. Anim. Is not Christ Sufficient ? What Blasphemous Opposition against Christ is this man guilty of ? THOMAS HICKS his Variations about the Scriptures and the Rule He varies from the Scriptures being the Rule of Faith and Practice unto Christians , p. 17 ▪ 19. The Grounds of our Faith and Hope , p. 19. ( which the Scriptures do no where assert ) ▪ To the Scriptures , being a Rule , p. 17 , 21 , 24. And then to go round again , The Mind of God contain'd therein , p. 20. The Will of God manifest in this Written Word , p 38 , 39. And then in Flat Contradiction to the Scriptures being the Rule of Faith , he sayes , This Rule must be the Will of God , which was the Ground of the Creation and Being of Men and Angels , p. 31. Reader , What Harmony can be found in this Man's Scribling ? T. H. There is an utter Insufficiency in this meer Light Within , to Direct us the Right Way of Worshipping the True God — This is manifest from the great Loss , that the Wisest amongst the Heathen have been , and still are under , about this very thing , p. 35 , 36. T.H. Contrad . Christ is the Life and Light of Men , p. 22. Man was alwayes under the Obligation of a Rule ; that God's Soveraignity , and his Inferiority unto God , might be Acknowledged , page 31. as before . Anim. What thinkst thou , Will. Kiffin ? Doth thy Brother Hicks credit your Cause in these manifest Contradictions ? One while , to charge such utter Insufficiency upon the Light Within ; another while Christ is the Life , and Light of men ( this I urge the oftener upon him , that he and his Brethren may see his Self-contradiction ) Is not Christ ●ufficient ? And why must the Wisest of the Heathen be Excluded from the Sufficiency of such an Obligation or Rule , as Man was always under ? Are they No Men ? and have they no Souls to be Saved ? or , Must they all be Damned for Want of the Scriptures ( who have them not ) if they improve so much Light as God hath given them ? ( see Acts 10.34 . Rom. 2.10 , 11. ) This is not yet Answer'd by you : Though the Cru●l Partiality that is in your Electionary Opinion appears plainly against the Unive●sal Light or Grace of God to Mankind ? I cannot but believe , that div●●s of the Heathen ( who were Sincere to God ) were both more Morral , and more Pious , ( and therefore , more in the Life of Christianity ) then many of you Baptist Preachers are . Did Christ Dye for all men ? or , Is he a Propitiation for the Sins of the whole World ? And hath not God afforded that Light or Grace to all that 's able to convey or discover the Vertue of his Blood , and Spiritual Effects of his Sacrifice to Mankind ? How Narrow and Partial are they who Deny this ? T. H. What Intollerable Pride and Arrogancy have you arived to ? and all this , thy following the Light Within ; improving it to the Subverting and Annihilating the Covenant of Grace , p. 38. H. Grigg , I really believe , That the Lord Jesus , as the Eternal Word , hath given Light , or Enlightened all Men and Women that come into the World , pag. 8. of his Book , stiled , Light from the Sun ▪ Anim. See here how plainly one Brother Contradicts another : Can it be less then Blasphemy , to judge , That following the Light of the Eternal Word doth either produce such Pride , Subvert or Annihilate the Covenant of Grace ? Is not this to make the Light of Christ Oppose Christ ? T. H. Surely this Light , instead of Directing what you do in a way of Subserviency to the Ends of this Covenant , doth directly Oppose it , is in that so far from being a Sufficient Rule , that it ought to be Rejected , pag. 38. T. H. Contrad . Yet all this is no Disparagement to the Light Within , to say , That God doth make any thing more known of his Will , then is , or can be known by this meer Light Within : for it is but to say , that Each Degree of Light is Serviceable to its End , p. 36. Anim. By this then the Difference is only about the Degrees of the Light , and not about the Nature and Property of it ; and then , if each Degree be Serviceable to its End ( as no Doubt it is ) what Blasphemous Contradiction is it to say , That any Degree of this Light of Christ ( as the Eternal Word ) either doth directly Oppose this Covenant , which is Christ , or is to be Rejected ? Doth the Light of Christ Oppose Christ ? What thinkest thou , William Kiffin ? Hath not thy Brother Hicks shewn Intollerable Pride , Madness , and his Gross Darkness against this Light Within ? Canst not see his Self-Confutation herein ? Why wouldst thou suffer such a Contradictory Pamphlet , as this thy Brother's Dialogue , to be divulged ? H. Grigg , The great Darkness of these Men , who cry up Light and Power Within , this Wile of Satan , and Cheat of Antichrist , p. 31. T. Hicks Contrad . I acknowledge there is something Within , that Checks for many Evils , and Excites to many Good Things ; and that I ought to Shun those Evils , and do that Good , p. 8. Anim. See here again the Contradiction that 's between these two Brothers : Can that be a Wile of Satan which thus Checks for Evil and Excites to Good ? Oh! that these men would Obey it , that they might be better composed in their Minds , and not remain in this Bedlam frame of spirit ; for , as yet , one acts the Bedlam the one while , and the other another while . T. H. This Light Within directs not our Actions to those Holy and Spiritual Ends , which the Scripture doth : Alas ! whereto doth the Best of Men's Actions naturally tend , but to Swell them with Pride and Conceit of themselves ? p. 37. T. H. Contrad . The Heathen in many things , with Respect to Morral Goodness , there was something Commendable in them — The Jews had a Light in them , by which they might acknowledge God ought to be Worshipped ( contradicted again ) yet that Light could not direct them how that Worship should be performed , so as to Please Him , pag. 36 , 37. Anim. In the first , he puts Corrupt Proud Nature for the Light ; in the next Contradiction , the Light is Commendable for Morral Goodness ; in the last , he Opposeth the Sufficiency of the Living Word , Good Spirit , or Light , which was given to the Jews : and this accuseth Moses , and the Prophets , with directing them to an Insufficient Light. See Deut. 30.14 . Neb. 9.20 . Isa. 2.5 . & chap. 63.10 . T. H. We Oppose not the Scriptures to the Holy Spirit , but to the Light Within p. 39. ( which Opposing of theirs is thus explained , The Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith and Practice , the Light Within to be Rejected . ) T. H. Contrad . Neither will this Common Light rise above its Source , Nature , Vse and End ; wherefore Affront no more the Grace and Wisdom of God in Superadding more , p. 37. Anim. See how this Man 's Plung'd ! One while he is setting the Scriptures in Opposition to the Light Within ; another while , the Degree of it is so far from being to be Rejected , that 't is to have more Added to : which granting , it follows , that the Addition of more must come through the Improvement of the Less Degree ; and Degrees do not vary the Nature or Kind . T. H. We see , that the Light in one man teacheth one thing , and the Light in another a direct Contrary ; so that there can be no certainty of Truth or Error , Sin or Duty by this : for , that which is Sin to one man , is and may be Duty to another ; and consequently , Sin is nothing , page 42. Answ. Now he renders the Light within Men ( so commended before ) as no Real Light , but as Corrupt and Variable as the Erroneous Minds of Men ; and so Blasphemously p●ts Dark●ess for Light : But how agrees this with his saying , Christ is the Life and Light of Men , p. 22. no Disparagement to the Light Within — each Degree of Light is Serviceable to its End , p. 36. we being Accountable for every Dispensation of Light , according to its kind , p. 13. But if there be no such thing , as a Real Light , to Distinguish between Sin and Duty , what should they be Accountable for ? What Atheistical Bedlam Work has this T. Hicks made against the Light Within ! H. Grigg , I affirm , That Jesus Christ is a Man , consisting of Flesh and Bone , p. 30 , 31. Humane , p. 33. T. Hicks Contrad . The Son took Flesh upon him , p. 35. The Word took Flesh , p. 47. The Father did prepare Him a Body , p. 83. Anim. There 's no small difference between Consisting of Humane Flesh and Bone , and his T●king Flesh , or having a Body Prepared for him : As for the Son of God to consist of such a Body , implies . He was not before that Body ; but to say , the Father did prepare him a Body , implies , That he was before , and so he was , and is Ascended Up , where he was before Glorified with the Father , &c. John 6.62 . chap. 17.5 . Whilst T. H. expects to be Perfectly Freed from Sin in Heaven after Death , p. 50. and yet questions , Whether it shall be the Priviledge of any on this side Death ? p. 55. He is very Uncertain in his Opposing the Doctrine of Perfection , as Attainable in this Life ; to be sure , his Sinful Course here is not the Way to Heaven hereafter ; neither doth his Rehearsal of Personal Mistakes , and Failings in Motions or Actions ( if granted against several Persons , divers of whom I believe he wrongeth , p. 26 , 27 , 28 , 29 , 52. ) overthrow immediate Revelation , or the Doctrine of Perfection ; nor yet prove the Light of Christ within so Uncertain , as to teach one man one thing , and another a direct contrary ; nor yet to shew no certainty of Truth or Error , Sin or Duty , as Erroneously he represents it , p. 42. As it is his Iniquity to Reflect upon a People in general from the Failings of some , so he sheweth himself a Silly Logition to Reflect upon Principles by Personal Weaknesses ; though this is his kind of Logick , whilst he sleights Revelation , and for an Instance against it , tells us of a Revelation that came from Paul Hobson , who , on purpose to try them , spake through a Trunk yet could they not distinguish his Voice from the Immediate Voice of God , p. 27. And who was this Paul Hobson ? Was he not an Eminent Baptist Preacher , and Brother of these Men ? 'T is true , we have heard , that he served a Poor , Shatter'd , Whimsical Man , as his Brother T.H. relates , viz. That he Feigned a Voice , and called , as from God , through a Trunk ; and so Deceived this Silly Man : Do you think that this adds any thing to the Credit of the Baptists Cause , thus to publish boastingly their Brother's Wickedness ? And which was Worse , think you , Paul Hobson the Deceiver , or the Person whom he Deceived ? Is this a Valid Argument against Revelation ? And would T.H. and his Brother Will. Kiffin , take it well , if I should make their Brethren's Miscarriages , and their Brother Hobson's said Wickedness , an Argument against them , as never Called of God either to Preach , Dip or Plunge people in Water ? Judge , Reader , how Silly they are in these their Attempts and Work against Us. Here follows some of Thomas Hicks's Chief Assertions and Phraises , viz. T.H. I. That the Light in every man is a Creature , p. 6. No more then a meer Creature ▪ p. 46. Answ. Contrary to plain Scripture , which saith , In him was Life , and the Life was the Light of Men , John 1.4 . This Life and Light of Christ is Divine and Increated . T. H. II. Jesus Christ , God , Man , a Person without thee , p. 9. Answ. This is not Scripture Language ; but the Anthropomorphites and Muggletonians , who profess a Personal God , denying him to be an Infinite Spirit . T.H. III. The Scriptures are the Word of God , the Rule of Faith , and Practice , p. 17. Answ. Do not these men count the Scriptures the great Rule of Speaking also ? Then by what Rule must we believe that the Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith and Practice , while they no where do call themselves so ? But Christ , the Word , the Way , the Truth and the Life , &c. whose Divine Light being the Rule of the Understanding , is therefore the Rule of Faith and Sound Judgment , which only can truly open the Scriptures , and bring man to the right Use and End of them . T. H. IV. The Bible is the Means of our Knowing God , p. 41. Answ. He Idolatrously sets up the Bible in the place of Christ : For , no man knows the Father , but the Son , and he to whom the Son Reveals him , Mat. 11.27 . T. H. V. There is an utter insufficiency in this meer Light Within to direct us the Right Way of Worshipping God ; this is manifest from the Great Loss the Wisest among the Heathen have been , and still are under , p. 55 , 56. Answ. Contrary to plain Scripture , which saith , That which may be Known of God is Manifest in them ; and even as they liked it not to retain God in their Knowledge , he gave them over to a Reprobate Mind , Rom. 1.19 , 20 , 21 , 28. and see Rom. 2.10 , 11 , 14 , 15 , 16. Therefore had those Gentiles truly Obey'd and Follow'd that Light , and improved that Knowledge given them of God , they had been preserved in his Way and Worship from Reprobation and Idolatry . T. H. VI. The Apostles , and all True Christians , say , This Body of Flesh and Bones shall Rise again , p. 59 , 60. Answ. Where do the Apostles say these words in Scripture ? Let us have plain Scripture Proof ; or else , let him not pretend the Scripture to be his Rule : The Apostle's words are , Thou Fool , thou sowest not that Body that shall be ; but God giveth a Body as pleaseth him , unto every Seed his own ( or proper ) Body , 1 Cor. 15. vers . 35 , 36 , 37 , 38 , 40 , 46 , 47 , 48. And the Spiritual Glorious Body is not a Carnal or Natural Body , any more then the Bodies Celestial are Terrestial [ I have more to say to this Point elsewhere ] But T. H. is pleased to pass by my Question with silence , which was , Whether the Wheat , that is grown up in the Ear , be the very same that was sown ? T. H. VII . This cannot be meant of a New Created Body , because such a Body cannot be said to be either Vile or Changed , p. 58. Answ. A strange Inconsistency , that they shall not be New Created Bodies , and yet the same Carnal or Terrestial Bodies of all ( how many Thousand soever be dissolved to Dust ) should rise compleat without a New Creation ! Man was formed of the Dust of the Earth ; What , must the Dust of Dissolved Bodies be rais'd , without Creating a New ? A strange Confusion and gross Imagination . He tells us , The Apostles say , This Body of Flesh and Bones shall rise again : When the Apostle saith , Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God : Where proves he then that Flesh and Bones without Blood shall ? But if it cannot be a New Created Body , it is not the same Carnal , Natural or Terrestial Body ( of Flesh , Blood and B●ne ) that is given to every Seed , as it pleaseth God ( nor is that Body , the Seed spoken of , 1 Cor. 15.38 . as some of these men have affirmed ) or that shall inherit his Kingdom : but a Spiritual Glorious Body , such as is the Heavenly , 1 Cor. 15.48 . This is a Mystery hid from such Carnal Sensual Men as T. H. who cannot see any Eternal Advantage after Death , unless he enjoyes it in this his Carnal Body , or Earthly Tabernacle : What then , shall the Spiritual Existencies , or Sanctified Souls , reap no Benefit by the Dissolution of the Earthly Tabernacle ? Or is he of the mind of some of his Brethren , that hold the Mortality of the Soul , that it Dyeth ( or Sleepeth in the Dust ) with the Body ; and that it remains so till a future Day , expected for the raising up of both : But we are not of their Mind and Opinion in this , but that there is an Immediate Separation made between the Soul and Body upon Dissolution , and that the Soul is Immortal , being made to subsist in Immortallity by an Unchangeable Power , either in a state of Felicity , or Misery according to the Image that it did bear in the World. But , unless you come ( in the Light ) to know the Original , Life or Seed in the Soul , which is Immutable : you can neither rightly know your own Souls , nor the two contrary Spirits , Natures and Images , in one of which every man will be found , to receive his due Reward . So that the Soul of Man is neither God , nor Christ , the Saviour or Redeemer ( as falsly it is insinuated as our Principle ) for we have always distinguished between the Soul , and the Saviour of it ; the Soul being inferior to that Eternal Word , or Power , that Saves it : see my Answer to R. Gourden , entituled , The Nature of Christianity , &c. p. 15 , 16 , & 73. in which T.H. his Cavil , and pretended Occasion against us is fully answered , and taken off . And as Tribulation & Anguish will be upon every Soul of Man that doth Evil , Rom. 2.9 . & Isa. 3.9 . and God knows how to Reserve the Unjust unto the Day of Judgment , to be Punished and the Wicked unto the Day of Destruction . So they who truly love the Lord God with all their Souls , and continue in the Way of Righteousness , shall not only Cease from their Labours and Travels , but receive and eternally possess this Advantage , even a being ever with the Lord in his Everlasting Kingdom of Glory and Triumph . So we are still of the Apostles mind , expecting an Eternal Advantage after Desolution ; For we know , that if our Earthly House of this Tabernable were disolved , we have a Building of God , a House not made with Hands , Eternal , in the Heavens ; for , in this we groan , earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our House , which is from Heaven , 2 Cor. 5.1 , 2. For me to Live is Christ , and to Dye is Gain , Phil. 1.21 . Now whereas T. Hicks assumes the Confidence to Justifie his Work against us , call'd Quakers , as being Conscious to himself , that he has not in any thing Mis-represented us , p. 78. and that if the Quakers return him that Answer , that they are Lyes and Slanders , and that he is an Envious and Railing Man , he shall not think himself concerned to give any Reply , because he is fully satisfied , &c. p. 90. To this I must tell him , Whether he will be pleased to Reply or no , he hath shewn himself very guilty of both Lyes and Slanders ; and hath as plainly acted the Part of an Envious and Railing man , as ever any Opposers ( have done against us ) wh● profess Religion ; and there are many Thousands , that can witness against him for these his Lyes and Slanders against us , among many more , as his Accusing us , viz. 1. That the Quakers account the Blood of Christ no more then an Vnholy Thing , p. 9. 2. That they account the Blood of Christ , which was shed , no more then the Blood of a Common Thief , p. 31. 3. He represents this as the Quakers words , viz. That we make use of the Scriptures only to quiet and stop their Clamors that plead for it as their Rule , p. 25. 4. That Fox , Dewsbury , Whitehead , Crisp and Penn , are exceedingly Corrupt in Morrals , p. 43. 5. That the Quakers deny the Resurrection of the Body , and all future and distin●t Beings and Existences after Death , p. 53 , 57 , 62. Because they say , That Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , p. 56. see 1 Cor. 15.50 . 6. That the Quakers Opinion denies any eternal Advantage after Death , p. 75. 7. He insinuates , That the Quakers chief Motive and Inducement to Suffer is , the Satisfaction of their Wills and Lusts , and the promoting their Carnal Interests , p. 75. Answ. It doth very Ill become these Baptists , thus to Slander and Defame our Sufferings , to render us Obnoxious to the Powers ( though they 'll be of little Credit herein ) knowing their own Cowardliness , Creeping and Sculking into Corners and Obscure Places in Suffering-Times : the Fruitlesness of Coertion hath not been manifest by these mens Valour ; though now when they have gotten up into their Pulpits and Pews , they are not content with their own Liberties , but Envy us in ours ; who have been Instrumental to stand in the Gap , in deep Sufferings , with Resignation of Estates and Lives , and yet must be Branded by T. Hicks , as Sufferers to satisfie Lusts , and to promote Carnal Interests : This his Malice and Slander is so apparent and gross , that I need not Paraphraise much upon it ; but leave it to God , and his Witness in all to judge of . For a further Answer to T. Hicks , I refer the Reader to these Books of mine , entituled as followeth , viz. The Life of Christ Within , &c. in Answer to Will. Burnet , Baptist Christ Ascended above the Clouds ; in Answer to J. Newman , Bap. The Nature of Christianity ; in Answer to R. Gourdon . The Principal Controversies , &c. in Answer to the Presbyterians of Scotland . I would desire so much Reasonableness of Will. Kiffin , Tho. Hicks , Hen. Grigg , and the rest of their Fraternity ; That when any of them are minded to write against the Quakers , about the Light of Christ Within , &c. that they would seriously peruse and exam●ne their Work , and endeavour better to compose their Matter , without Contradictions ; that if they come ingeniously to signifie the good Use and End of it , and what shall be the End of all that improve it , whether they have the Scriptures or not ; it may prevent much further Controversie : But if they are still minded to invalidate and deprave the Light that 's in all men : let 's have their Work consistent to deal withal ; otherwayes , by their Contraditions they shew themselves uncertain and dubious , as T Hicks and H.G. do ; one while affirming , that the Light within every man is a Creature , and Mis-guiding ; another while , Christ is the Life and Light of men : One while , the Light within is so uncertain , that there can be no certainty of Truth or Error , Sin or Duty by it ; another while , It Checks for Evils , and Excites to Good : One while , It Opposeth the End of the Covenant of Grace , and is to be Rejected ; another while , It ought to be improved and attended upon , every Degree of the Light being serviceable to its End , and we being accountable to God for every Dispensation thereof : One while they count it , A Cheat of Antichrist , and Wile of Satan ; another while , It is the Light of Jesus Christ , as the Eternal Word , Enlightening every man that cometh into the World. Thus you Baptists are in apparent Confusion ; and whilst you come forth thus Contradictory to your selves , you are not worthy to be regarded , otherwise then men in Babylon , confounded ( which may be lookt upon as a Just Judgment upon you , for your Perversness and Malice against the Truth , and its Children ) you being Opposing , Confuting and Warring against your selves , while you think to Confute and render others Odious . I do at present pass by divers of Tho. Hicks's Personal Reflections and Abuses , as to my own Particular ( having a fuller Reserve against him , and others more eminent among them and their Work , for a further Occasion ) being more concerned for Truth and Righteousness , then any Personal or Private Interest whatsoever ; knowing also , that Tho. Hicks's Morosity , Passion and Cholerick Humor ( wherein his Tongue is at Liberty ) renders him no Potent Antagonist ; being therein apt to break out in such Reviling Language , and Tinker's Rhetorick , against his Opposers , as , You 'r a Knave ; You are an Impudent Fellow ; You are an Audacious Fellow ; A Deceitful Fellow ; You 'r a Cock's-Comb , and thus to divers of us ; which some of his Brethren have excused as his zeal & manner of speaking ; though this Hypocritical Covering ( as also his pretended Christianity ) is too narrow to hide a manifest Woolf , however sometimes Disguized , as in Sheep's Habbit . I would have T. H. to consider , That his Belief of being an Elect Person , will not secure him from the End of Railers and Revilers , who shall not inherit God's Kingdom , 1 Cor. 6.10 . Nor from the Reward of all Lyars , which is the Lake that Burneth , &c. Rev. 21.8 . Who is a Wise Man , and indued with Knowledge amongst you , let him shew out of a Good Conversation his Works with Meekness of Wisdom . But if ye have Bitter Envying and Strife in your Hearts , Glory not . And Lye not against the Truth , See Jam. 3.13 , 14 , to the end . I am a Servant of Christ , and Lover of Souls , G. W. London , the 12th of the 10th Moneth , 1672. THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65861-e2150 Luk. 16.22 , 23. 1 King. 17.21 . Gen. 2.7 . Wisd. 15.11 . Deut. 4.9 . and 6.5 . and 13.3 . Prov. 21.10 . Isa. 66.3 . 
A65859	----	The contentious apostate and his blow refelled [sic] in a brief narrative of the unchristian deportment, opposition, and disturbance made by Francis Bugg, backslider, Isaac Archer, priest or vicar, Samuel Knowles, late curate, at a publick meeting of the people called Quakers held at Milden-Hall in Suffolk the 30th day of the 2d month commonly called April 1691, and in a short answer to F.B. his defaming pamphlet falsely stiled One blow more at new Rome / by G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1691 Approx. 74 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 17 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65859 Wing W1920 ESTC R27591 09976911 ocm 09976911 44422 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65859) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 44422) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1346:8) The contentious apostate and his blow refelled [sic] in a brief narrative of the unchristian deportment, opposition, and disturbance made by Francis Bugg, backslider, Isaac Archer, priest or vicar, Samuel Knowles, late curate, at a publick meeting of the people called Quakers held at Milden-Hall in Suffolk the 30th day of the 2d month commonly called April 1691, and in a short answer to F.B. his defaming pamphlet falsely stiled One blow more at new Rome / by G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 29 p. Printed for Thomas Northcott, London : 1691. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Bugg, Francis, 1640-1724? -- One blow more at New Rome. Society of Friends -- Great Britain. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Andrew Kuster Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Andrew Kuster Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Contentious Apostate , AND HIS BLOW REFELLED : In a Brief NARRATIVE OF THE Unchristian Deportment , Opposition and Disturbance made , By Francis Bugg , Backslider . Isaac Archer , Priest or Vicar . Samuel Knowles , late Curate . AT A Publick Meeting of the People called QUAKERS , Held at Milden-hall in Suffolk , the 30th day of the 2d Month , commonly called April , 1691. And in a short ANSWER to F. B. his defaming Pamphlet , falsely Stiled One Blow more at New Rome . By G. W. Psal. 52. 4 , 5. Thou lovest all devouring words , O thou deceitful tongue . God shall likewise destroy thee , for ever , &c. LONDON : Printed for Thomas Northcott , in George-Yard in Lombard-Street , 1691. THE Contentious Apostate , AND HIS BLOW REFELLED . SInce Francis Bugg to Excuse the shameful Disturbance and Malicious Interruption he and his Abettors made at our Publick Meeting at Milden-hall in Suffolk , the day and year aforesaid , intended by our Friends for the Worship and Service of Almighty God , the said F. B. his pretence is this , viz. That they might not thrust me out of the Meeting ( as their Practice at London has often been ) I got a Justice's Warrant , resolving that if they would not let me stay , I would silence G. W. for that day , which after he perceived , he sat down quietly . Whence pray observe : 1st . F. B. got the Warrant . It seems 't was upon his Information to the Justice , and what the Information was the Warrant shews . 2dly , For what end could he therein turn Informer to obtain the Warrant ? was it only to secure himself from being thrust out of our Meeting ? No , for no sober person need fear that : Or was it to disturb the Meeting , and for himself to Domineer and Insult , and Magisterially Command the Constable to take away Geo. Whitehead , and Execute his Warrant , as ( Persecuter-like ) he divers times did ? The Constable not Submitting to F. B. therein : Constable ( quoth he ) do your Office , or I 'll Complain of you . The Warrant it self , and F. Bugg's Insolent and Turbulent Behaviour at that Meeting will easily Evince his Information and Excuse before cited , to be unjust and groundless , as is his Instance of one sober Woman whom they commonly thrust out , and sometimes keep Prisoner , &c. p. 2. Whereas this his sober Woman is known to be a Turbulent , Wilful ( and partly Discomposed ) Person , a Rayler , a Scold , a Striker , a Fighter , who also hath torn and pulled a Friend ( or Friends ) by the Head , Hair ; ask Joseph North , Dennis Dodman , and some other Friends about Spittle-Fields , &c. of her Behaviour . And F. B's Alledging the Tryal of Peers is very Improper in this case ; for it is all one as to tell us that Mad or Malicious folks may not be Restrained from doing Mischief and making Disturbance without the Tryal of a Jury : No sober Man would have thus Impertinently Argued . The Copy of the said Warrant follows . To the Constables of Milden-hall , and to every of them . Suff ss . HAving received Information that there is a Meeting intended to be Holden within the Precincts of your Town ( either upon the Morrow , or within some short time after ) under pretence of a Religious Worship , in different Form from the Religion Establish't , in a place not Licensed , and by persons not qualified to hold the same , and who are under a great Suspicion of being disaffected to the Government . These are in their Majesties Names to Authorise and Require you , and every or any of you , to cause the said Persons and every of them to appear forthwith before me or some other Justice of the Peace of this County to Answer to the said Information , and to be dealt with therein according to the Law , and for your so doing this shall be your sufficient Warrant . Given under my Hand and Seal at Downham in the said County the 29th day of April , in the 3d Year of their said Majesties Reigns , Anno. Dom. 1691. The Name of the Justice who granted the Warrant , is here Omitted , because we esteem him wronged by Misinformarion ; and also that when he understands the Envy and Abuse of F. B. Gratified by the Warrant , and what Impious and Wicked use he made thereof by Maliciously Interrupting and Disturbing a Religious Meeting ; we hope the Justice ( on more mature Consideration ) will be so Ingenuous and Tender as to wish he had not Granted F. B. any such Warrant against an Innocent Peaceable People , and that he may rather Reprehend F. B. for being too Busie and Turbulent to his quiet Neighbours : For he must needs understand that if there was a failure or omission ( on our Friends part at Milden-hall ) in not Entrring their Meeting-House upon Record ( as the Law Directs ) yet that the Intent of the Government and Law is , that we should Enjoy our Religious Meetings for the Worship of Almighty God without any such Disturbance or Molestation as F. B. &c. made . Here followeth a brief Narrative of Francis Bugg's Deportment , and the substance of what past between him and his Teacher Js. Archer on the one part , and G. Whitehead , &c. on the other , the 30th day of the 2d Month called April , 1691 , at the Publick Meeting-House of the People called Quakers , at Milden-hall in Suffolk . F. Bugg and his Company being got to the Meeting before G. W. and into the Gallery where our Ministring Friends used to be ; after G. W. came and was waiting upon the Lord in Silence , F. Bugg having present a Constable and Warrant ( and first premising his Property as a Feoffee in trust for the Meeting-House , charged G. W. with being , First , A Deceiver of the People . 2dly , A false Accuser of the Blessed Martyrs , &c. 3dly , A Favourer of such Principles as Border upon Blasphemy . And offering a Paper of his Charge , which G. W. refused , desiring to enjoy our Meeting peaceably , and answer F. B. afterwards . F. B. refused , and then asked if he would own certain Books which he had ? G. W. still prest for a Peaceable Meeting , and told him he Interrupted and Imposed on us unwarrantably on that occasion . F. B. still refused to suffer us to enjoy our Meeting Peaceably , saying , I will Impose upon you . G. W. began to speak a few words unto the People by way of Exhortation , &c. F. Bugg furiously interrupted , calling out , Constable do your Office , take G. Whitehead and S. Cater away . G. W. said , we come in the Love of God , thou comest as a Persecutor ; but I fear not thy Persecution , nor what thou canst do , thou 'st but Discover thine own Envy , &c. Priest Archer , said , We know your Meeting is unlawful . G. W. How provest thou that ? Priest Archer , Your Meeting-House is not Recorded as the Law directs . G. W. I knew not that , however our Meeting is for the Worship and Service of Almighty God , and both the Government and the Law intend our Liberty ; I was no cause of that Omission of Recording the Meeting-House . Priest , You should have been better Informed aforehand . G. W. It is not Lawful for you thus to Disturb our Meeting , and Interrupt our Religious Exercise ; we see by this what you would be at , you would be at even the old work of Persecution again , if there were not some Restraint upon you by Law , seeing you take this Advantage of an Omission of a Circumstance in Law thus to Disturb us and put a force upon us ; pray be so Civil as to let our Meeting be quiet till we have ended . Priest , Mr. Bugg I would have us with-draw and let them enjoy their Meeting peaceably ; let us not take the Advantage of the Law against them . F. B. I will not suffer them , G. VV. shall not Preach here , he is a Deceiver ; now I have him here I will have him answer whether he owns these Books , and he shall take the Test too , he is Disaffected to the Government . G. W. See what a Convert thou hast got of F. B. that thus contradicts his Teacher ; we are not come hither for Contention , nor am I willing now to answer thee ( F. B. ) nor to detain the Meeting about thy Brauling or Clamorous Reviling , &c. I am willing to meet thee and answer thee at any convenient place when our Meeting is over , and before any Judicious persons ; pray let us enjoy our Meeting quietly . F. B. Thou art for evading , and going into Holes and Corners , but I am glad I have got thee here , dost thou own this Book ? and this Book , & c. ? ( holding them in his Hands . ) G. W. I am not willing to answer thee at this present , I have something to say to the People ( and began to Declare , but interrupted still . ) F. B. I will not suffer you to Preach here ; Constable , Constable , where is your Warrant ? do your Office , take G. VV. away , or I 'll Complain of you . Constable , Pray look upon this Warrant . [ But the Constable appeared wiser than F. B. and not so busie . ] G. W. Pray let us enjoy our Meeting quietly , and then we will Answer you . F. B. Constable do your Office , take him away , he will not own his Books [ which was a Lye , he only suspended giving answer at that present . ] G. W. being thus frequently and forcably interrupted when he would have Declared the Truth ; for a little space sat down in Silence , breathing unto the Lord in Spirit , and then after a short space , was moved to fall down upon his Knees in Prayer for some time : Whereupon the Priest thus made interruption to the People , viz. Priest , All you that are in Communion with me , with-draw , do not joyn with him in Prayer , for he doth not Pray in the Name of Christ , [ which was not true , and very unbecoming one that would be esteemed a Reverend Clergy-man , and many did not Obey him . ] Prayer ended , F. Bugg began Disturbance again , saying , do you own these Books , this , and this ? G. W. What are their Titles ? F. B. The one is Judgment Fired , and the other Innocency against Envy . G. W. I know no such Book as Judgment Fired . F. B. It is Judgment Fixed . G. W. Is not my Name to it ? F. B. Yes . G. VV. What need'st thou question my owning it ? I own that I Writ most or the greatest part of that Book , and shall not disown it ; and for the other , Innocency against Envy , I also own it , the Errors of the Press excepted ; and this Answer I give , that thou mayst not go away with a Lye , and say that I am afraid to own my own Books , nor any think that I am afraid to Answer thee , for I have Discoursed many Greater and Wiser Men than thou art , who have shewn a great deal more Civility than thou hast done . F. B's Wife stood up to clear her Conscience , being under a great Burthen and Constraint in Testimony against her Husband 's writing Books against Friends , &c. contrary to Conviction , as having expressed some trouble he was in for the same , and that if it had not been for Jo. Thrift ( an abetter of his ) he had not done what he did ; saying , she should have Burnt all his Papers , &c. with other Words . To which he made little Answer , but gave her the Lye openly ; but many present did believe she spoke Truth , and in the fear of God , from a necessity laid upon her at that time . Priest. Mrs. Bugg , you should not Discover your Husbands Nakedness ; and Mr. Bugg you should not Reveal your Secrets to the Wife of your Bosom ; but you may see the Enemies of a Man are those of his own House , &c. F. B. after several Reiterations of his gross Lye , that G. W. was afraid to own his Books , and making a great Clamour and Noise with Reviling Detractions and Personal Reflections , G. W. called to the Priest thus , viz. Thou that art his Teacher or Minister , I pray thee speak to him , and teach him to keep within the bounds of common Civility , and not to make this Clamour and these scurrilous Detractions , and let us come to some matter in Controversy , seeing we may not enjoy the intended end of our Meeting quietly . Priest , Mr. Bugg pray forbear , &c. F. B. I will not hold my Tongue . G. W. See what a Convert thou hast gotten of him , he will not be subject to his own Minister : Dost thou not think him somewhat Discomposed ? I desire on passage of his Book , for his Conformity , may be Read ( Entituled the Quakers Detected ) it is that first page , ( how he came to be a Member of our Society ) Thou hast the Book F. B. I pray thee lend it me a little ( but he refused to part with it out of his Hand ) whereupon a Friend present reacht one to us . G. W. I desire this one Page may be read in the Meeting , which F. B. was very unwilling to . Priest. Pray let it be read , which accordingly was done : Which followeth , viz. F. B. Q. Detect . The first point under Consideration is , how I came to be a Member of their Society ( i. e. of the Quakers . ) In the Beginning they Taught that all Men were Inlightned according to John 1. 9. and that this Light wherewith Christ had Inlightned them was sufficient , if obeyed , to lead to Salvation ; and that it was the work of the Ministers of Christ to turn the Peoples minds from Darkness to Light , and from the Power of Satan to God : Affirming that this Light was a sufficient Teacher , Leader and Guide to every Believer , without the help of outward Prescriptions , Forms , Orders and Decrees of Men. Upon these and the like Notions I became perswaded to make Tryal of their Doctrine ; and when I came to see and observe their Practice , Conversations and Deportments in the begining , and what simplicity and plainness attended their Ministry , I was still more Confirmed that it was a Dispensation of the Love of God sent as a Visitation to Mankind ; and being thus perswaded , I was resolved to bear the Cross , and did utterly despise the shame that attended them and their Message , and was not behind any of my Equals , both in Doing and Suffering for the Testimony thereof , as some amongst them can still bear me Witness ; and in this manner we went on for many Years , and Loved one another with Love Vnfeigned ; and doubtless God blessed our Meetings with the comfortable Enjoyment of his Presence , and gave us Favour in the sight of men , and not a word of Conformity was heard amongst Us for many Years together , nor no Lording over each others Consciences ; but as every man was perswaded by the Lord , so he was frequently Exhorted to walk , &c. [ Thus far Fr. Bugg . ] G. W. The Question in Controversy between us is , Whether the People called Quakers he Apostate from the Truth , or F. Bugg ? Which may be Resolved from his own Book here ; since his Conformity he owns the said People to have been once no other than the People of God , sound in Doctrin and Practice in Christian Love and Society , and that God blessed our Meetings with the Comfortable Enjoyment of his Presence : At which time the People called Quakers were Dissenters from the Church and Clergy of England , and F. Bugg then with them , and he writ then against the Priests and their Covetousness and Oppression , &c. F. B. I am sorry for that . Pr. He is now of another Judgment . G. W. When he so writ in the Commendation of the People and Society called Quakers , he was turned from them to the Church of England , whom he ( as well as the People called Quakers ) had Dissented from ; and when Dissenters were in the Truth , according to his own now Confession positive and high Commendation of them ; from whence I infer , That if he himself and the Quakers were once ( for many years together ) not Apostates , but in the Truth when Dissenters , he must needs now be the Apostate in his Conforming to the Church of England , contrary to their Practice and Testimony when no Apostates , for he cannot be in the Truth now and then too ; if right , or in the Truth then , he is not right now ; if he saith he is right , or in the Truth now and not then , this is to contradict his own Testimony of the Quakers and himself , as having been a Christian Society , and the People of God , ( yea , and that for many years , as he saith ) ; so that if right then , he cannot be right now ( as aforesaid ) being turned from what he was , and owned then : I would have him Answer and clear himself of this Dilemma if he can . But instead of Answering , he set to Reading on in his Book ; for that was much of his shift to evade and take up time in Reading in his own Books and Pamphlets , instead of giving fair Answer or civilly Reasoning the Case . G. W. Seeing F. B. undertakes not to wind himself out of the Dilemma , see if thou that art his Minister can do it for him . Pr. Mr. Bugg is now of another Judgment than he was , as Paul was when Converted ; before he thought he might do many things , even against the Name of Jesus , but he was of another Judgment when Converted . G. VV. This instance will not hold parallel with the Case of F. Bugg , his is not a Conversion as Pauls was ; Paul did not say he was in the Truth ( or a Christian ) before Converted ; but F. Bugg as good as saith he and the Society of the Quakers were once the People of God , and enjoyed his Comfortable Presence when Dissenters from the Church and Clergy of England ; but now contrarywise he is turned to them ( and Conformed ) and from the Society called Quakers , I do not see how either he himself or thou canst clear him or bring him from under the Dilemma . Is F. B. of another Judgment concerning the People called Quakers now , than he was when he writ this Book in 1686 , wherein he highly Commends of the Society called Quakers ? Pr. He is now of another Judgment . G. W. Then he was of two different Judgments since he was Conformed to the Church of England : Come F. Bugg , what sayst thou ? Dost thou now disown what thou hast writ in Commendation of the People called Quakers in 1686 ? F. B. No , I own what I then Writ . G. W. Then F. Bugg and his Minister contradict each other ; he is of another Judgment , saith the Minister : No , I am not , saith F. B. I own what I writ . F. B. The Presence of God may be among other Societies , as Presbyterians , Independents , Anabaptists . G. W. By the same rule his Conformity is so indifferent , that he may as well joyn with any of those other Societies whom he never so highly commended of as he hath of the People called Quakers ; his Apostacy is apparent , he cannot clear himself of the Dilemma before Rehearsed upon his own Confession , which is plain an Argument as to Man , from his own Confession , which no doubt was from inward Conviction . Pr. He 's Apostate from you , but not from the Truth . G. W. What saith F. B. to it , could he be in the Truth , both when in Society with the People called Quakers ( being Dissenters from the Church of England ) and now in his Conformity thereunto ? Pr. He Argues — Argumentum ad hominem , have a care how you Answer him , there 's a Snare in it : You are now of another Judgment . F. B. I am of another Judgment . G. W. Art thou of another Judgment than thou wast when thou writ this Book in 1686 concerning thy being a Member of the Society of the Quakers ( so call'd ) ? If so , at the same rate F. B. may alter his Judgment every two or three Years ; and thus he may write Books , and contradict them again ; then what Credit is to be given unto his Books or Scribling against the Quakers ? The cause of his turning from us ( as he pretends ) is , that there are Canons or Rules among us , required to be observed , and he assigns us only two of those Canons : First , Not to forsake our usual Meetings in times of Persecution . 2dly , Twice Publication of Marriages before our Mens and Womens Distinct Meetings . F. B. They have no Foundation in the Scriptures . G. W. Yes , but they have : 1st . Not forsaking the Assembling of your selves together , as the manner of some is . 2dly , The intent and end our Womens Meetings , is good and Warrantable by Scripture ; it is Religious , and for the Exercise of a Christian Care , with respect to Widows , Fatherless , Indigent , &c. And our Proposing Marriages twice to both our Mens and Womens Meetings , is , that both may Inspect them , and see that they be clear and free from all Prae-contracts , and have Consent of Parents and Guardians , &c. This is a Just and Righteous end , which I hope you will not deny ; our Method herein hath been laid before the Civil Government , and approved of as Laudable and more safe than the Method of those Priests of the Church of England who Marry persons Clandestinly without the knowledg and consent of Parents , where Heiresses are Stoln and Marriages Theevish ; we have none such among us , but due Publication and strict Examination and Approbation , before Marriages be Solemnized among us . Pr. I am glad you have so much Discipline among you . G. W. But F. B. hath opposed it , and left us on pretence of being burdened in Conscience with Canons , Rules , Laws , &c. among us , as if he were now joyned to a Church that hath no Canons or Rules ; but I think you have more than we , though we have Good and Warrantable Canons or Rules and due Methods in Discipline , which we will stand by in the Face of all Opposers ; but if Canons or Rules be the Burden of F. B.'s Conscience , then he should have gone into some Society that hath no Canons , Rules , nor outward Methods ; and I know no such Religious Society but they have both Rules and Methods in Discipline , but the Ranters have not ; so F. B. might have gone among them , and not have been burthened with Canons , Rules and Methods , wherein he might have been more consistent with himself as to his Reason for his forsaking our Religious Society . Pr. But I understood Mr. Bugg was dissatisfied with your Womens Meeting apart from the Men. G. W. Sometimes they meet together , and sometimes apart , and they may not be refused that Liberty as an accommodation for good Ends and Services in the Church . Good Women had a Service , and did good Offices in the Primitive Christian Church formerly , as Phaebe and others , Rom. 16. I remember when it was told F. B. there were Deaconesses , or Women Deacons † in the Church of Christ : He Answered ( in one Book ) that we had this out of some History or Popish Author , which was his ignorant Rashness , for I had it first out of Protestant Authors , though both Protestants and Papists own that there were such Deaconesses . Divers more things passed , too tedious to Relate here at large : Some time was taken up by F. B. to excuse his Compassing his 15. l. Fine from Samuel Cater , wherein when his Cuning and Crafty Dealing was Discovered both by himself , and laid open by Samuel Cater , divers People Laughed at him , and the Priest deemed it Wittily done , but it was by the Wisdom of the Serpent , ( said he ) . G. W. Observe here F. B's own Minister confesses it was by the Wisdom of the Serpent that he acted against S. C. Pr. It is Lawful sometimes to use the Wisdom of the Serpent ; our Saviour said , be ye wise as Serpents , and innocent as Doves . G. W. Dost thou really believe that F. Bugg was as Innocent as a Dove in his Dealing , as he did by Samuel Cater ? No Answer to this . Some time was also spent about Joshua Bang's his requiring Satisfaction of F. B. for manifestly Injuring him in Print , which he could not Deny , but made no Satisfaction for the Injury done . Lastly , G. W. gave publick Testimony in the Name of the Lord to clear himself and Friends from Popery , and from being Popishly affected ; And in opposition to F. B's Malicious and Slanderous Charge and Reproaches , tending to render him and his Friends Odious and Obnoxious to the Government and People , too large here to insert particularly . As for Samuel Knowles he said not much , he appeared somewhat Insignificant , but only to help forward the lightness and laughter of some People present , by his own Levity , lifting up his Eyes and Hands as one in Admiration ( and credulous of S. B's infamous Charge and Reproaches against the Quakers ) who being afterward Reprehended for his Levity and ill Example therein ; he Excused it as well as he could , with his smiling Countenance , which he Naturally had , ( as he said . ) The foregoing Narrative hath been kept in reserve until F. Bugg appeared first in Print , as it was expected he would . Now Isaac Archer , thou having thus far appeared an Abettor and Assister of F. Bugg in his Fruitless Quarrel and Contention against Us , and he being one of thy Flock and Church , we may take it for granted , that he hath secret Incouragement from thee to divulge his Malicious defaming Pamphlets and Books against Us , and his Work therein will not only become his own Load and Burthen , but thine also , if thou wilt not please to stop him from his Invective Scribling and Printing against Us ( the People of God called Quakers ) or otherwise manifest thy publick dislike thereof , for his Work is therein scandalous to Religion , and he shall be loaden with his own Iniquity ; he will never bring Honour to thee , or to thy ( or your Church's ) Interest . It 's apparent that thou and he are not one in Principle , whilst he owns the Doctrin and Practice of the People called Quakers in their Antient Splendour , according to his own Confession . I may also remind thee of thy Position , the 13th of the 2d Month , 1688. at our publick Meeting at Milden-hall , i. e. That Judas his Transgression by which he fell from his Ministry , was his Hanging himself ( not betraying his Lord and Master ) and that a wicked man may be a Minister of the Gospel , and ought not to be separated from : Against which Doctrin I left a note of these quotations for thee , 1 Tim. 3. 2 , 3 , 4 , 7. 1 Pet. 5. 2 , 3 , 4 , Titus 2. 7. 2 Cor. 6. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. 2 Tim. 3. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. And now J. Archer , I must tell thee , 't is a dangerous thing to take Judas's ( or wicked Mens ) part . A CERTIFICATE . Milden-Hall the 25th of the 5th Month called July , 1691. FRancis Bugg who for some Years walked in Friendly Community and Society amongst Vs , the People call'd Quakers ; and after that for some time , under pretence of siding with the Christian Quaker against the Apostate Quaker , and having also wrote several Books on that Account , with subtil and various Endeavours to make Division , Strife and Debate amongst Vs ; He the said F. B. did on the 30th of the 2d Month , 1691. appear in our Meeting with a Warrant in the hands of a Constable , abetted by Isaac Archer and Samuel Knowles , two Priests , the former of this Parish , the latter his late Curate , accompanied with many of their Hearers , to whom he hath joyned himself in their Church Society , turning his back as well upon his Christian Quaker , as of his Apostate Quaker ( as he calls some ) whose Countenance there , sufficiently manifested him what manner of Christian he was as to his deportment and Religion , to the Satisfaction of several who had retained some better thoughts of him , than that he only Counterfeited the Christian Quaker , under a Malicious Disguise and Subtil Design to make Division , Strife and Contention amongst us , though some believed otherwise then . And at the said Meeting he offered G. W. a Paper , which he refusing to accept at his Hand , F. B. said that it contained three Charges : Concerning which , we Declare , That though at the fore-end of that Meeting G. W. did refuse to Answer F. B's Interrogatories , but rather endeavoured by Arguments to obtain the benefit of the Meeting as to the end and service intended , undisturbed ; he offered to Answer F. Bugg after the Meeting was ended ; which not obtaining , G. W. did towards the conclusion of that Meeting not only own that he Wrote most part of Innocency against Envy , but also upon a Reflection of F. B. on him as not owning Judgment Fixt , did say , the he owned all his Hand or Name was set to , Errours of the Press excepted , which we take to be a full Answer , not only for Judgment Fixed , but for all other . Books which he hath wrote and subscribed his Name to ; unto which we subscribe our Names . John Mason . Joseph Mason . Simon Burgis . James Burgis . Tho. Brewster . Hen. Hogans . Rob. Hibble Ambr. Friend . Geo. Friend . Joshua Bangs . Edward Firth . Tho. Fuller . Now to Proceed to F. Bugg's One Blow More . HE saith he was resolved to go to the Meeting well Prepared , which it seems , was with a Constable and Warrant , as before obtained by an undue Information as well as Envious , against the persons met , as being under a great suspicion of Disaffection to the Government . That for his offering to meet us to Prove matters of Fact , his Challenge he here again renews on a Months notice , p. 2. whereby he has Granted that he has not yet proved matters of Fact against us ; we have his Clamourous Accusations and Charges without Proofs ; still he 's more loud in 's Charges than in 's Proofs , as was publickly told him . That F. B. offered G. W. a Paper containing this Charge following , offering publickly ( he saith ) to prove it , [ which he neither did nor can do . ] 1st , That G. VV. is a Deceiver of the People . 2dly , A false Accuser of the blessed Martyrs , charging their Doctrin to be Corrupt , tending to Practical Ranterism , and thereby siding with the Papists against the Protestants . 3dly , That he is a favourer or an excuser of such Principles and Practices as border upon Blasphemy and Idolatry . G. VV. did and still doth utterly deny these Charges as False , Slanderous and Malicious , they remain still to prove , which F. B's says so , doth not . 1. Wherein is G. VV. a Deceiver of the People in point of Doctrin or Conversation ? He utterly and Conscientiously denies the Charge , having faithfully served the Lord in good Conscience from his Youth upward , and rejoyceth that he is counted worthy to be thus Reproached for Christ Jesus , as his Ministers of old were , 2 Cor. 6. 8. 2. Wherein doth he accuse the blessed Martyrs , and charge their Doctrin to be Corrupt ? This Charge is General as well as in the Plural . What Doctrin agreed upon and generally held by the blessed Martyrs , did G. W. ever so Accuse ? But only F. B's Misapplication of the Words , which he saith were Dr. Barnes , viz. That all outward works be things indifferent , and may be used and also left Pray where did the blessed Martyrs agree upon or hold this Doctrin , as stated by our Adversary ? I am sure 't is neither safe nor sound without some such distinction , as all outward works not evil in themselves , or not prohibited by the Law of God , be things so indifferent as aforesaid . 3. His third Charge is as notoriously False and Malicious as the rest : The occasion whereof was my only Questioning him about two Letters , which he saith were sent to G. F. by J. C. and J. A. How proves he they are theirs as Cited , & c ? I do not believe they are , as I told him publickly , both which shewed my dislike of them , as Cited , especially the latter ; besides there 's now more ground to question the Citations , since F. B. that varied in his last from his first in several Passages , leaving out divers words ; and he hath not yet proved either of them true : I suppose if he hath not forged the said Letters , he hath taken them upon Trust , as he would have the Reader and us take them from him upon his own Credit and bare Affirmation , which is of very little value to us : Thus he frequently imposes , and commonly refers us to his own Scurrilous and Abusive Pamphlets , as if his own Authority and Ipse Dixit must bear down all opposition to his bare and proofless Affirmations . That G. W. did not own the Book wholly , Entituled Innocency against Envy , and refused to own either in part or in the whole , his Book Entituled , Judgment Fixed , are both false , for before the Meeting was ended , he openly owned both , the Errors of the Press excepted , though unwilling at first to Answer F. B. to that or any other Question , because he desired the Meeting might be kept quiet and free from Contention , but could not obtain it , because of F. B's Turbulent and Abusive Contention and Clamorous Reviling . To prove that G. W. did both refuse to own his Book ( Judgment Fixed ) and Answer the Charge before cited , F. B. produces this Certificate , viz. WE whose Names are under written do Testify , That on the 30th of April , 1691. George Whitehead did refuse to own his Book , Judgment Fixed , &c. and to Answer to the recited charge which was by Francis Bugg Exhibited against him . Isaac Archer . Samuel Knowles . And Ten more . 1. This Certificate is very unfair , partial , and unjust in both , as I could produce many more Witnesses to the Contrary , if I should go or send about to get hands ; for that I did publickly own the said Book , Judgment Fixed , and the other also that very day and place ( the Errors of the Press excepted ) some time before the Meeting was ended , as many can Witness : That at first I refused for some time to Answer F. B. but refused not to own my said Books , or to answer his Charge at a more convenient time , which I did before parting , but would not presently be forced nor frighted thereunto by his peremptory demands and threats ( with Constable and Warrant ) his imperiously imposing upon me , I did not think my self bound immediately to Answer at his demand , and in his time , but took my own time and method to give Answer . This is the very truth of the Case . 2. That I did not only Answer his said Charge by way of Denial , but all the rest of his abusive and proofless Accusations and Clamours in general . And my Negation was sufficient , whilst his Affirmations were unproved , and yet in many things he was answered by such demonstrations as he was not able to refute . I had no cause to be Timerous or Cowardly from a Guilty Conscience , nor ashamed of S. Cripe ( in his being concerned with me ) as F. B. most falsly insinuates , p. 2 , 3. And at length , against his abusive Clamours , That G. W. was disaffected to the Government ; Jesuitically siding with the Papists against Protestants , &c. This proposition was fairly made and urged by me the person abused , viz. That seeing F. B. hath thus publickly and highly reproached me touching the Government , as disaffected to the same , Popish , Jesuitical , &c. I do sincerely offer , that if F. B. or any that take his part ( his Minister or any other ) hath any thing to charge me with , relating to the Civil Government , or any Complaint , Suggestion , or Jealousy against me touching the same , according to his said Reproaches , if he or they will let me have a Lawful Summons ( after I am at London ) to appear before the Secretary of State , or any of the Lords of the King and Queen's Council , I shall ( God willing ) meet him or any of them face to face , and Vindicate my own Innocency against his Malicious Charge . But to this F. B. and his Party gave no answer ; only S. Knowles said they would consider of it . And indeed Isaac Archer and he might have been more Ingenuous than to sign such an unjust Certificate as they have done , upon F. B's Instigation ; it will no way redound to their Reputation or Credit . Again F. B. proceeds with his Clamours , charging us with being Deluders with Abominable Lyes , Manifest Forgeries and Gross Perversions ; one instance whereof he may Recite , as he saith , out of our Book , Innocency against Envy , in Answer to his Quakers Detected , p. 3. Where he saith , We have grosly abused his Intention , and by leaving out five words , ( viz. in the beginning they taught ) have made him speak what is for our turn , saying , that he confesses to our Doctrin , viz. That all men are enlighted by Christ , according to John 1. 9. And to the Sufficiency of this Light of Christ to lead to Salvation , without the help of Mens outward Prescriptions , Forms , &c. p. 3. That he did plainly confess to our Doctrin herein , is true still ; and our leaving out those five words , doth not lessen his Confession , nor will his now saying , We have grosly abused his Intention , be any just excuse ; but both idle and evasive , as if his intention were not to confess that Doctrin or our Ministry ( which we still hold ) as in the beginning we taught , whereas he hath contrariwise granted , that he was still the more confirmed that it was a Dispensation of the Love of God sent as a Visitation to Mankind ; and being thus perswaded , he was resolved to bear the Cross , and did utterly dispise the Shame that attended us and our Message , &c. And that in this manner ( he saith ) we went on for many years , and Loved one another with Love unfained , and doubtless God blessed our Meetings with the comfortable Enjoyment of his Presence ; and as every man was perswaded by the Lord , so he was frequently exhorted to walk . See his Quakers Detected , p. 3. before cited more at large ; from all which , pray observe how plainly he hath confessed , since he was Conformed to the Church of England , in the year , 1686. both to the Truth of the Quakers Doctrin , Ministry , Society , Blessed Meeting , and Immediate Teaching of the Lord , which he saith was in the beginning , as if now they were Declined ; however it was since they were a People Religious and Christian Society , and he one among them ( according to his own confession ) and both these People called Quakers , while in such Purity and Blessedness , yea , and Ancient Splendor also , ( as he saith p 14. of his One Blow , &c. ) were all Dissenters from the Church of England , and bore Testimony against the Clergy , and Priests , and Tythes , their Covetousness , Oppression and Persecution ; but now F. B. ( and not the People called Quakers ) is turned back to the Priests whom he testified against , when he owned the said People to be the People of God , and both sound in Doctrin and Practice ( who still persevere in their Testimony . ) But F. B. is Fallen , Back-sliden and Apostatized from his Testimony which he bore among the said People , therefore he is the Apostate and not we ; and yet as a self-condemned person even since his Conformity is made to confess to the Truth of our Doctrin , Conversation and Sotiety , as it was in the beginning , and for many years together , when he owned us : But now he walks quite contrary in his Conformity and Temporizing , so that he cannot be Right now , if he was ever Right among us . But if he saith he is now of another Judgment , as his Minister J. Archer would have him , instancing Paul's saying , He thought he might do many things against the Name of Jesus , but was of another Judgment when Converted ; then this is to condemn F. B's own Testimony to the Truth of our Doctrin and Conversation , which he hath given since he turned to the Clergy and Church of England ; and I could not find that either F. B. or his Minister could clear him of this Dilemma , if ever he was in the Truth while he was among the People called Quakers , or in Society with them , he must be in Error now in his turning back to the Priests and Church of England ; but if he and his Teacher will conclude that he was always in Error while among the People called Quakers , but now Converted and in the Truth ; This is to Condemn his own Testimony aforesaid , Printed in the Year , 1686. Quakers Detected , p. 3. where since a Member of the Church of England , he hath confessed to the Doctrin , Ministry , Christian-Conversation , Love and Society of the People called Quakers , and their blessed Meetings in the beginning , and for many Years ; so that take it which way he or his now Minister will , he is under a manifest Snare , he is self-Condemned , and his slight evasion will stand him in no stead , viz. That he is far enough from confessing to our present Doctrin and Conversation ; and saying , that though he did set forth what we held in the beginning , yet that we teach the contrary now ; and what though Rome was once a glorious Church ‖ endued with sound Doctrin , and many other excellent Ornaments ; yet by Innovatians and Mischievous Impositions , she is utterly Deserted . And his saying , There is great difference between my saying in the beginning , that they taught sound Doctrin , &c. and saying the same now . p. 4. These Evasions and Shifts will not cover nor excuse him , nor warrant his Temporising , and turning to the Priests and Church of England , contrary to that Doctrin and Testimony which he saith we Taught in the beginning , but still he appears a self-condemned Person , guilty of deep Hypocrisy therein , acting contrary to manifest conviction in his own Conscience ; for wherein he falsly suggests we now Teach and Act contrary to what we did in the beginning ; he should rather have endeavoured to find out some other People whose Doctrin and Conversations are both sound and agreeable , as he confesseth the Quakers were in the beginning ; or to consist better with himself , he should see if he could find out some other glorious Church endued with sound Doctrin and excellent Ornaments , ( but then it must be without either Canons , Rules or Discipline ) that is neither the People called Quakers , nor the Church of England , which he Testified against when he was in Society with the Quakers in their Ancient Splendour , according to his own confession , otherwise he is still in the Mire , and yet to seek , being in Egypt , sold thither . As he saith , Quakers Detected , p. 8. and therefore no real Convert of the Church of England , while he would make the People believe that he is for the Quakers in their Doctrin and Practice , when most Glorious and Splendid , and yet continues a pretended Member of the Church of England , contrary to both . But dare F. B. in Conscience now say that he is more Just , more Pure , more Clean in his Life , than when he walked among the People called Quakers , and owned them as the People of God , a Glorious Church , & c. ? Now he proceeds to prove that we do not teach now as in the beginning , and that our Practice , Deportment and Conversation , is not now as in the beginning , nor attended with that Simplicity and Plainness , &c. For which he hath framed six Articles . The first , against the Quakers late Doctrin , viz. In the beginning they taught that all Men were Inlightned according to John 1. 9. And that this Light wherewith Christ had Enlightned them , was sufficient , if obeyed , to lead to Salvation without the help of outward Rules , Laws and Directories of Mens Prescribing ; but now they teach the contrary ( saith he ) and wherein contrary ? They have Declared such out of Vnity who discountenance Womens Meetings , &c. Wherein we have but his own say so , or proofless Affirmation that this is a contrary Teaching to the former . In the beginning we Taught that all Men are Enlightned by Christ , and so do we still ; and that this Light of Christ is sufficient to lead unto Salvation , if obeyed without outward Rules , Laws , &c. of Men'sprescribing or making , or without Human Prescriptions ; and so we say still , this Light is sufficient ; and yet by this Light reprove dark and envious Opposers of Women's Godly Meetings ( gathered in the Name and Light of Christ Jesus by his Power ) which have been among us many years , before F. B. left us , even in such times , wherein he has granted us to be in our Ancient Splendor , a Glorious Church , &c. yet now in contradiction to himself , is both an Opposer of our Women's Meetings , and an Adversary to our Christian Discipline and good Order ; else why does he oppose the Doctrin of the Light within thereunto ? And that such Opposers are both Disobedient unto ( and out of ) the Light and Unity of Christ's Church , and consequently in Darkness , is as certain , as he that saith he is in the Light , and hates his Brother , is in Darkness , as F. B. is , in his dark Opposition without Proof or Reason ; he might as well have argued thus , viz. That if the Light of Christ within , be sufficient to lead unto Salvation , if obeyed without Human Laws ; then it is a contrary Doctrin , to testifie against the Spirit of Envy , Division and Darkness ; but the Light of Christ is sufficient , Ergo. Let him bring a better Argument upon his own Article and Opposition if he can , and his Fallacy will easily appear as it doth . His Second Article , Charging us with Popish and Antichristian Practice , Is both False and Slanderous ; In his falsly accusing us with Imposing on each others Consciences , for the strict Observation of Women's Meetings , as contrary to what in the Beginning we Taught against Imposition upon another Man's Conscience , &c. Nor hath he proved any Imposition upon our Friends Consciences in this Case , either to observe , or act without or contrary to Inward Conviction or Perswasion by the Light of Christ within : Therefore his Charge without Proof , is a blind Imposition . But saith he , They are for Nonconformity Record out of the Vnity , &c. He should have said rather , that some for Opposition and Gainsaying of good Order and Discipline ( as that of twice Publication of Marriages before Solemnized ) agreed upon and practised by the Church of Christ among us , have therein ( or in that matter ) excluded themselves out of Unity ( and if some such have been so recorded , that excludes them not so much as their own cross Actions ) and this had been true in Fact ; for if they had been in entire Unity with their Brethren , they would not have made any such Opposition or Breach upon any due or necessary Method , Order or Discipline , agreed upon by them , or in a Christian Society , which they pretended to be Members of ; and such gain no Reputation by such Advocates as F. Bugg . And further the true State of the Case in Opposition to his False and Partial , is this : In the Beginning we declared against Human Impositions on Men's Consciences , and against Persecution thereupon also , and so we do still ; and yet it is no Contradiction , to be for the strict Observation of Faithful Women's Meetings , sometimes distinct from the Men ; where they are perswaded by the Light of Christ so to Meet , being gathered by the Power and in the Name of Jesus Christ , ( which cannot be an Effect of my Imposition contrary to good Conscience ) and for those good Ends and Services propper to them , which F. B.'s new Minister could not deny , when those good Ends were Demonstrated . His Third Article against their Deportment and Carriage , Runs thus . In the Beginning G. W. and many others came through the County in plain Habit walking on Foot , Content with mean Accommodation , apt to Teach , not given to Filthy Lucre , often Visiting the Sick , the Poor as well as the Rich , Working often on their Trades , that they might not be Chargeable ; But now they are grown Great and High , and instead of a plain Gray Cloth Coat and short Hair , they are now Cloathed with the finest of the Fleece , the best of Hair Camlets , well-set Periwigs ; instead of going on Foot , they generally have the best Horses they can get ; yea , some of them have their Coaches , Callashes , Foot-boys and Servants to attend them , and instead of Cold Water , the best of Spirits . Observe what Commendation he still gives of us as in the Beginning , but now what a Story he hath told , to prove us declined in our Conversation ; but still short of proving us Apostate and New Rome , &c. As to our Deportment and Carriage , we have plain Habit still , and are content with mean Accommodation ; and some of us can and do Drink Water , as we have occasion : We have learned both to Abound and to Want , Phil. 4. 12. But for the best of Spirits instead of Cold Water , it is a false Insinuation , as well as Non-sense ; Who can drink the best of Spirits instead of Water ? And we covet no Man's Meat , nor Drink , nor Gold , nor Silver , nor Apparel , but Preach the Gospel freely as ever ; yet are necessitated to Ride on Horse-back sometimes , because not so able to Walk on Foot , as in the Beginning : And some have better Cloaths than at first , for some had their Cloaths torn among Bryers and Thorns , by the Woolfish Persecutors and Followers of Persecuting Priests ; others their Cloaths much Worn , by lying in Prisons upon Straw , Boards , Floors , &c. for their Christian Testimony ; and they could not always wear their old Cloaths , they must sometimes have new ones ; these are no Proofs of their Desertion or Apostacy . And for Periwigs well set or ill set , we do very little affect or care for them , we like no extravagant or unnecessary ones , though probably some who have lost their own Hair , either by hard Imprisonment or Sickness , or by outward Weakness , Infirmity or Age , may have necessity to wear some short Wigs , to keep their Ears from Deafness , and Heads and Necks from Cold , who otherwise had rather be without them . Now if F. B. or any other should judge such as guilty of Pride or Apostacy therein , when their Consciences in the sight of God witness the contrary ; such his and their Judgment would be very Unjust , and judged of God and his Truth , as well as extravagant , ranting and unnecessary Wigs . And as for Coaches , Callashes and Foot-boys , we know of few among us keep them , to be sure not G. W. nor others that came out when he did in 1654. though probably some few , that are come to own the Truth since , that have Estates answerable do keep Coaches , for the necessary Accommodation of themselves and Families , to carry them to Meetings ( and where they have occasion ) which can be no Proof of their Apostacy neither , but rather the contrary ; that their Zeal is such , they spare no Cost to accommodate their Families to Meetings . This Confession , That in the Beginning we were apt to Teach , not given to Filthy Lucre , not willing to be chargeable , contradicts his Charge in his other Pamphlet , B. Rams , p. 13. where he calls our Ministers Hirelings , taking Mony fo Preaching , and p. 14. saith , They always pretend to Preach , Teach , &c. freely , but yet contrary to these their Pretentions , have all along taken Mony for the same . — How agrees this with his now confessing that in the beginning they were apt to teach , not given to filthy Lucre , not willing to be Chargeable ? Yet have all along taken Mony for Preaching . O! horrid and shameful Lye , and self-contradiction . His fourth Article against their taking Mony , contrary to their Pretenses , viz. In the beginning they taught , that nothing amongst them as a People should be Recorded for Mony , † but freely a free People , and in Love to serve one another , G. F's Order , Printed , 1650. ( We think this is not true , we know no such Order Printed that Year , if at all ; ) And also that it was a breach of Christs command to take Mony for Preaching . And under this Notion exclaimed against the Presbyterians for their Bason and Platter ; and against the publick Preachers for their setled Maintenance , as Tyths , &c. But now they can take 50 l. per Annum , 30 l. for Writing a Manuscript of five or six sheets to teach Children . — I say their Ministers take Mony for Preaching . Thus F. B. Now pray observe his Charge and the Nature of it , how general both against our Ministers and others , viz. ☞ They can take 50 l. per Annum , speaking both before and after of taking Mony for Preaching : We deny his Charge , because utterly false , and a gross Slander , and challange him to prove where our Ministers take 50 l. per Annum for Preaching , or any of them 30 l. for Writing the said Manuscript either ? He hath been already Reprehended for this Lye of 50 l. per Annum , unjustly charged upon our Ministers , and yet persisteth in it . See our Answer , Innocency against Envy , p. 14. ☞ Where we charge him therein with a gross Lye , Defamation and Scandal . — We have not so learned Christ , we Preach freely as he hath commanded , &c. But in stead of Proof , we have F. B's own Ipse Dixit , i. e. I say their Ministers take Mony for Preaching . But I say this is a Lye of F. B's . which I hope is of as good Authority as his , and better than his bare proofless say so . He hath likewise shamefully perverted Tho. Elwood's words , As making an Apology for his Brethren , taking Mony for Preaching , from T. Elwood's only Pleading for a supply of the Needful Wants of Christ's Ministers , as Cited more at large in his B. Rams , p. 13 , 14 , 15. Thus this backsliding Apostate hath frequently shewn himself a Perverse , Fallacious and Impertinent Scriber . His fifth Article . That they receive Honour of their Servants and Apprentices , ( this is general , which I do not believe ) contrary to what we taught in the beginning against Respecting Persons , receiving Honour one of another . To prove this he Accuseth S. Duncon about his Apprentice ; thus he Accuseth the Dead , as he hath frequently done , who are not here to Answer for themselves , which renders his Work of the less credit . If any of our Friends Servants sometimes are without their Hats in their Shops , &c. I should rather think it is for their own Convenience , than from any Injunction of their Masters for their Honour , as he hath Accused J. C. and J. A. both long since Deceased ; with Idolatrous and Blasphemous Names and Titles given to Man ; Prayers Given or Offered to G. F. Deifying and Adoring him , &c. p. 7. in two Letters before mentioned , which I have not only questioned the Truth of his Citation thereof , but Disown , especially the latter , as Cited by F. B. who hath also varied in his Citation thereof ; nor hath he gone about to prove , either that they are truly Cited by him , but rather the contrary by his manifest variation therein ; so that still it remains for F. B. to prove that the persons Charged , i. e. J. C. and J. A. were the Authors of the said Letters , as Cited by him , which I do not believe nor own them , nor can I understand them to be Prayers , ( as he calls them ) when there is not so much as the Form of a Prayer in them : These things considered , F. B's Clamours against us of justifying Idolatry and Blasphemy , cunning Evasions , Quibbles , and Jesuitical Reserves , Sculking to Decieve the Simple , p. 7. 8. do all fall to the Ground as meer empty and envious Railery and abuse . The sixth Article . They sometimes Taught that Reflecting upon Persons , was a mark of a false Prophet , and never the way to beget to God , quoting G. F's . great Mystery , &c. p. 237. and that to call Names for Religion , were no Christians of Christ's making . He has dealt unfairly by G. F. in his Citation , leaving out his first words , viz. The work of the Ministers of the Gospel was not to reflect upon Persons or Creatures , but struck at the Power which Captivated the Creatures , which intends not to strike at the Creature distinct from that Power that Captivates it ; and to prove that we Practise contrary , he quotes a Book , Truth 's Defense , calling a Minister , i. e. Camelford , filthy Beast , Impudent , Enemy of God , &c. And E. B. for calling Bennet , Reprobate , Child of Darkness , Blasphemer , &c. And another Book Entituled A threefold Estate of Antichrist , for calling the Priests of the World Theeves and Robers , Antichrist's Liers , Viperous Generation , Babylon's Merchants , Ravening Wolves , Greedy Dumb Dogs , &c. To all which I thus briefly Answer . 1. That personal Reflections and calling Names meerly for Religion , is neither the way to beget to God nor Christian ; but Reflections and Names suitable to the ill Qualities , ill Natures and corrupt Practices of Persons . This is not to strike at the Creature distinct from that power that Captivates it , but chiefly at that power of Darkness in its own birth and depraved Generation ; And such Reflections or Names are not given for Religion sake ; but because of some Persons Depravity and Degeneration . F. B. knows that some in the Scripture are called both Bulls , greedy dumb Dogs , ravening Wolves , generation of Vipers , Serpents , evil Beasts , Antichrists , Reprobates , &c. And I would ask F. Bugg if he did not Believe the covetous Priests of the World were such , when he was in Society with the People called Quakers , and owned them both in Doctrin and Practice in their Antient Splendour and Glory , as he hath since confest they once were ? I suppose within that time wherein he walked amongst them for many years , ( I suppose above Twenty ) and when he himself writ against the said Priests , did not he then think that many of them deserved such Characters as before mentioned , and in Scripture given to the false Prophets , false Shepherds , and covetous Watch-men of Israel ? And it is further observable , that those Books mentioned and charged by F. B. as Truths Defence , E. B. against Bennet , Three-fold Estate of Antichrist , and Samuel Fisher's Rusticus , were first printed many years ago , and in such times as F. B. no doubt , owned the People called Quakers to be in their Primitive Purity , Splendor and Soundness , both in Doctrin and Conversation , especially in those many years he walked among them , and owned them ; why did he not tell the World what years those said Books were first printed in , which now he has accused ? that his Inconsistency and Self-contradiction might more plainly have appeared , in his commending and condemning a People for things Writ by some of them , even when they were so commendably owned , and highly approved of by the self same Judge or Person , even F. B. He puts a Slight on our Answer to his Pamphlet , B. Rams , as so impertinent and short of an Answer , as not worth Replying to , yet thinks it necessary to make some few Observations on it , p. 10. I am sure that his Observations are both Impertinent , and contain divers Falshoods in a little compass , and far short of a Reply . As 1st . That G. W. will not own our said Answer to his B. Rams , only a part of it , is a gross Lie divers times Reiterated . 2dly . That G. F. and E. B. Encourage O. C.'s Army to a Practise they believed was not Lawful , i. e. to Fight ; how proves he this ? And that they did so Encourage them then in the Present Tense , and Future Tense ( as he saith ) Did not G. F. say to O. C. Arise and come forth ? &c. But did he say , Arise and come forth to Fight , Cut and Slash as F. B. confidently inferred , and told the Meeting at Mildenhall aforesaid ? But 't is not needful for me to insist on this point , the Matter being sufficiently spoke to , and answered in our late Book , Entituled , Christ's Lambs Defended from Satan's Rage , against John Pennyman's envious Invective , falsly styled , The Quakers Vnmasked . 3dly . I do not believe that one of our Ministers said to the Court at Barbadoes , That if the Spirit of the Lord God in them , led them to Fight , I had nothing against it , or that we Recorded any such thing in our Book of Foreign Letters , as F. B. saith : I know no such Record , nor do I believe it till I see it ; and if I do , we shall disown it , as none of our Doctrin nor Principle . 4thly . F. B. hath another strange Story against S. Fisher , viz. That he said he believed or expected that the People called Quakers would be Instrumental by Force ( with others ) to turn out or overturn the then Government , and that this he spake to Mr. Osgood ( after the Rising of the Fifth-Monarchy Men ) and Mr. Pennyman , as I am Informed ; pray ask them if they do not remember it , p. 10. Thus far F. Bugg . I have shewed Jo. Osgood this Story , and asked him about it , and his Answer is this , viz. I do not remember that S. Fisher spoke them , or such words , and I do not believe he did ; and I am not apt to believe he spoke such Words , for if he had , I should have opposed them . Wherefore we have Reason to think , this was some forged Story against S. F. who was a peaceable harmless Man , and that this Apostate may be ashamed to charge the Dead , and the Memories of the Living , with old defaming Stories . 5thly . After he hath pretended his Concern for many called Quakers both of his near Relations , and many of the Hearers being honest People ( as he Confesses ) but have their Eye too much to such Teachers and Leaders as G. W. and his Brethren , &c. p. 11. He insinuates a want of Vnion , in affection to the present Government ; and saith , not one Epistle , not one publick Prayer , &c. i. e. for King William and Queen Mary , which is more than he knows or can demonstrate . His envious and unjust Insinuations therein , have been already answered in our half Sheet in Print , Entituled , The Quakers Answer to a Scandalous Libel , styled , A Letter to the Quakers , which he hath since owned by offering to prove what we deny in it , B. Rams . p. 19. And also in our late Answer to his B. Rams , he doth but reiterate the same thing over and over against us ; and then to colour over his envious and injurious Insinuations against us , touching the Government , he tells us thus , viz. But I will not insist too much upon this point , lest you say I expose you , and would set the King against you , which is not my desire , as well as below the dignity of his Person and Station . Thus when he hath endeavoured to expose us to all the Reproach and Infamy he can , and to render us Disaffected and Obnoxious to the Government , he can thus Hypocritically pretend , 't is not his desire to set the King against us . O false hearted Man ! What better Tendency is thy envious work of ! 'T is well 't is below the Dignity of the King's Person and Place , to be influenced by the Malice of such Apostates as thy self , or by such false and infamous Characters , unjustly cast upon us , as Disaffected to the Government , New Rome Painted Harlots , Deluders , Deceivers , Jesuitical deep Hypocrisie , &c. And yet thou wouldst be glad we would publickly Address the King and Queen , and pray for them publickly and heartily , and therein be Example to our Hearers , who are honest People . p. 11 , 12. Wherein thy Hypocrisie and Inconsistency against us ( being set together ) Runs thus , viz. Thou Painted Harlot , thou New Rome , thou Antichrist , Deep Hypocrite , Deluder and Deceiver , disaffected to the Government , &c. — Pray Publickly and Heartily for King WILLIAM and Queen MARY . And is this thy Affection and Friendship to the King and Queen ? These may evince thy Folly , Confusion and Madness against an Innocent People , whom thou hast causelesly Deserted and unjustly Defamed . We grant 't is our Christian Duty to Pray for all Men , for Kings , &c. But where are all required by Christ or his Apostles , to pray for them by Name ? Or charged as Offenders , for not Naming Persons in our Prayers ? May not we pray acceptably , unless we tell God the Name of those we pray for ? Surely we need not a False Hearted Apostate to dictate our Prayers to us . Thy Hypocrisy and self-Contradiction also appears , in one while seeming to be against Personal Reflections and calling Names , &c. And another while calling the People called Quakers , Painted Harlot , New Rome , Rome's Sister , &c. which to excuse , among other false Allegations and Defamations , thou givest this for one Reason , viz. By their valuing their own Traditions above the Scriptures , p. 12. which is a notorious Lye , and utterly denyed by us as the rest of thy Lyes and filthy abuses are , with thy Lying conceited Rimes against us , being not worth Reciting . I leave thee and thy Works of Darkness and Envy , to the Righteous Judgments of the Heart-searching God ; and thy Judgment lingereth not , and thou shalt be Rewarded according to thy Evil Deeds ; it is high time for thee to seek Repentance , before thou be cut off , for thy Day hasteneth ; if thou wilt not be Humbled nor Repent , Remember thou hast been , and art Admonished and Warned : And with what Face or Conscience canst thou finally appeal to God , as knowing thou hast no Malitious intent , nor nothing of Revenge ; or to pretend to be , or Write without Prejudice or Malice ? And art not thou Joyned to such as say Prophecying and immediate Revelation are Ceased ? How then comest thou to take upon thee to Prophecy , That our Mountain shall be laid wast , and that we shall become like a wast howling Wilderness , Dead , Dry and Barren ? Which is thy own Condition , thou art Dead , Dry and Barren , and yet presumest to be a Judge or a Prophet , against others more Righteous than thy self ; our Mountain is the Mountain of the Lord , it is Mount Sion , that shall never be removed , nor laid wast , and it is Exalted above the Top of Esau's Mountain , and in vain dost thou strive against the Lord's Mountain ; thou art not only Fighting and Striving against Man or Men , but against the Lord , his Truth and Power , which is and will be too strong for thee ; thy great Iniquities are before him , and thy Secret Sins are set in his sight , even in the Light of his Countenance , and both thy Secret and Open Wickedness is seen and Judged by the Lord ; look at home , examin and consider thy own corrupt , perverse and crooked Ways , and seek Repentance , if a place may yet be found for thee , which I sincerely wish , if it may yet stand with the good Pleasure of All-mighty God to Grant it : And consider if thou hast not cause to fear thy day hastening . Middlesex , the 7th and 8th of the 5th Month , 1691. From a Servant of Christ , and Friend to thy poor Soul , G. Whitehead . FINIS . ERRATA . PAge 11. l. 7. r. F. B. l. 29. r. 30th , l. 30 , r. 1691 , p. 15. l. 21 , r. Crisp. A Catalogue of Books Printed for and Sold by Thomas Northcott in George-Yard in Lumbard-street . JOhn Burnyeat's Works , Price 2 s. 6 ▪ d. G. Keith's Presbyterian and Independant , Visible Churches , is New-England , and elsewhere , brought to the Test , and examined , according to the Holy Scripture , Price 1 s. 6. d. — His Way to the City of God , 1 s. — His Fundamental Truths of Christianity , Price 8 d. Stephen Crisp's Alarm Sounded in the Borders of Spiritual Egypt , which shall be heard in Babylon , Price 3 d. — His Epistle concerning the Present and Succeeding Times . Price , 2 d. G. Fox the Younger's Works , Price 1 s. 8 d. Elizebeth Bathursts Truths Vindication , Price 8 d. Sam. Fisher's Works , Price 12 s. William Tomlinson's Innovations of Popery , Price 6 d. Buds and Blossoms of Piety , Price 1 s. G. F's several Treatises , worthy of every true Christian's serious Consideration , Price 6 d. R. Barclay's Apology for the True Christian Divinity , Price 4 s. There is now in the Press Robert Barclay's Works , which will be Finished in a short time , and will be a Book of 12 s. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65859-e290 † Rom. 16. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Mas. & Fem. Notes for div A65859-e4480 ‖ So the Quakers were once a glorious Church , by this comparison , and both then and now clearly Dissenters from the Church of England . † But since that work is become far more than in the beginning they may allow poor Men something to live upon , who spend their time in Recording matters for them . We hope there 's no hurt nor Apostacy in that . 
A65862	----	The divine light of Christ in man, and his mediation truly confessed by the people called Quakers. In a brief and gentle examination of John Norris his two treatises concerning the divine light. Intended to wipe off his undue reflection of grossness and confusion on the Quakers notion of the light within. With a postscript to J. N. By G. W. a servant of Christ. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1692 Approx. 43 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65862 Wing W1924 ESTC R220968 99832351 99832351 36824 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65862) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 36824) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2103:16) The divine light of Christ in man, and his mediation truly confessed by the people called Quakers. In a brief and gentle examination of John Norris his two treatises concerning the divine light. Intended to wipe off his undue reflection of grossness and confusion on the Quakers notion of the light within. With a postscript to J. N. By G. W. a servant of Christ. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 24 p. printed for Thomas Northcott, in George-yard in Lombard-street, London : 1692. Identified on UMI microfilm "Early English books, 1641-1700", reel 2103, as Wing W1924, which gives format: 4⁰. A response to: Norris, John. Two treatises concerning the divine light. 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Inner Light -- Early works to 1800. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE DIVINE LIGHT OF Christ in Man , AND HIS MEDIATION , Truly confessed by the People called Quakers . IN A Brief and Gentle Examination of John Norris his Two Treatises concerning the Divine Light. Intended to wipe off his undue Reflection of Grossness and Confusion on the Quakers Notion of the Light within . WITH A POSTSCRIPT to J. N. By G. W. a Servant of Christ. Ye believe in God , believe also in me , Jo. 14. 1. London : Printed for Thomas Northcott , in George-yard in Lombard-street , 1692. The Divine Light of Christ in Man and his Mediation , truly confessed by the People called Quakers . I Having had the opportunity lately to peruse two Treatises concerning the Divine Light , wherein the same Light as it is in Man is very much acknowledged and confest unto by the Author , beyond many if not most under his circumstances in our day , but withal finding that the People called Quakers are unduly charged by him as I apprehend , That they do confine the Light , as to the Act of Illumination , to certain Men , or to Men of a certain Order , namely their own Party . And that they make the Light within to be a Creature , yea a Material Creature , p. 23 , 78 , 1st Treat . and p. 18 , 2d Treat . We the said People being thus charged so manifestly contrary to our sincere Belief , free and open , and frequent Profession and Testimony of and for the Divine Light of Christ , both as it is in all Men or Mankind ; and as it is increated Supernatural and Divine . This gave me occasion the more carefully and narrowly to inspect the said two Treatises of the Divine Light , and to consider from what General Doctrins or Positions as held by the People called Quakers ▪ the Author could with any colour of reason deduce such Consequences upon us the said People , as so confining the Act of Illumination only to those of our own Party , and that we make the Light within to be but a Creature , &c. And I am sure I cannot find any such Inferences justly deduceable upon Us as a People , nor do I apprehend any particular approved Writers among Us justly chargeable therewith , their Writings on that Subject of the Light within and Universal Grace , &c. being duly inspected and impartially compared . And therefore in love to the Truth and Christian Respect and Tenderness to the Author of the said two Treatises , ( i. e. J. N. ) I had a concern upon my Spirit to give him and the World my Sentiments about the Matter objected and charged by him , according to that measure of Light and Understanding that God has been pleased to give me , not to raise controversie nor to give him or any others any real offence , nor to cause or widen any Differences or Breaches , but rather to lessen and compose them , wherein they may in Truth and a right Understanding be composed and quieted : for I have a love for the said Author , and the more , because he has so much confest to the Truth of the Divine Logos , or Light in Man. Altho' by the way , I do take notice how passionately and angrily he is pleased to treat our Friend Richard Vickris with severe Reflections , hard Characters and Detractions , which I think do not well agree with his own Pretensions , nor sute his Circumstances . And altho' he seems hardly to resent some Reprehensions given him by R. V. in his Answer to him , which shews the reason thereof , yet I do not find that he has got any real advantage against R. V. in point of Doctrin or Testimony relating to the Divine Light , Spirit or Grace of God , but that R. V. has plainly and honestly asserted Truth therein : and I confess it is ingenuous in J. N. to Cite R. V. so fully as he has done . As the People commonly called Quakers do sincerely believe and confess the Divine and Saving-Grace of God in Christ to be universally free to and for all Mankind , so they do not confine the Divine Light of Christ as to the Act of Illumination to certain Men only , or only to Men of a certain Order , or to their own Party only , ( as unduly charged , p. 23 , 78 , 79. ) is evident from their own general Confession , that Christ as the Divine word , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , enlightens every Man coming into the World , Joh. 1. 9. which must needs be an actual Enlightening ; For how can it be said Christ enlightens every Man , but not actually ? What Nonsense and Contradiction would this be ? And that R. Barclay , the Person charged , was not of the opinion so to confine the actual Illumination of this Divine Light in Man , see his own Testimonies , viz. For this end ( that is for the Restoration of Man ) God hath communicated and given unto every Man a Measure of the Light of his Son , a Measure of Grace , or a Measure of the Spirit , which the Scripture expresseth by several Names , sometimes the Seed of the Kingdom , Matth. 13. 18 , 19. The Light that makes all things manifest , Ephes. 5. 13. The Word of God , Rom. 10. 18. or manifestation of the Spirit given to profit withal , 1 Cor. 12. 7. A Talent , Matth. 25. 15. A little Leaven . The Gospel preached in every Creature , Col. 1. 23. And also that God in and by this Light , invites , calls , exhorts and strives with every Man , in order to save them , ( and is not this a plain confession to its actual illumination in every Man ? ) which ▪ as it is received , and not resisted , works the salvation of all , &c. [ Thus far R. B. Apology , 330 , 331. ] And J. N. confesseth , that the Spirit of Truth ( which R. B. esteems the Light to be the very same with ) is really and truly God , p. 66 , 67. ( wherein it seems R. B. and J. N. are agreed ) . R. B. also declares of this Divine Light or Manifestation of the Holy Spirit given to every Man to profit withal ; That now it were not profitable unto them , if it did not strive with them in order to convert them . Thus R. B. fol. 66. And that the Light of Christ in a Turk , if minded , would reprove him both for committing Fornication and for Idolatry . — And that there is a possibility of Salvation to every Man during the day of his Visitation — which comes upon all at certain times and seasons , wherein it ( i. e. the Light or Grace of God ) works powerfully upon the Soul , mightily tenders and breaks it , at which times , if Man resist it not , but close with it , he comes to know salvation by it . And moreover , concerning the Light 's operation in the Hearts of all Men , R. B. saith , That as the Grace and Light in all is sufficient to save all , and of its own nature would save all , so it strives and wrestles with all for to save them ; he that resists its strivings is the cause of his own condemnation ; he that resists it not , it becomes his salvation . [ Thus R. B. in his Apology , fol. 338 , 339 , 340. ] and the like in fol. 354. And of them who live at ease in their sins , 't is because their Deeds are evil , that with one consent they reject this Light , for ( saith he ) it checks the Wisest of them all and the Learnedst of them all in secret , it reproves them ; neither can all their Logick silence it , nor can the securest among them stop its voice from crying and reproving them within , for all their consilence in the outward knowledge of Christ , or of what he hath suffered outwardly for them ; for , as hath been often said in a day , it strives with all , wrestles with all ; and it 's the unmortified Nature in the Wisest , in the Learnedest , &c. that denies this ▪ that despises it , that shuts it out to their own condemnation ; they come all under this description , Every one that doth Evil , hateth the Light , neither cometh to the Light , lest his deeds should be reproved , Joh. 3. 20. Apology , f. 355. Thus far R. Barclay , with much more of this kind in his Works , which I forbear farther to recite here , being I think sufficient to evince to any rational and intelligent person , that he did not ( nor do any of us ) confine the Light of Christ within ( in reference to the Act of Illumination or Enlightening ) to certain Men , or to ourselves only , but the knowledge and experience of its more powerful operation unto salvation and deliverance of Man from Sin and Satan , is only effectually receiv'd and experienc'd in them who return inward unto and obey this Divine Light of Christ within when it unavoidably convicts and reproves them of Sin and Transgression , Christ being the Author of Eternal Salvation to them that obey him ; tho' he actually enlightens all , he saves only them that believe and obey him . And that R. Barclay did not believe this Divine and Saving-Light to be a Creature , as is inferred upon him , and the Quakers for his sake , pray observe his own Testimony , Apology , fol. 798. viz. That the Quakers exhort People to believe in a meer Creature , is a meer Calumny , ( saith R. B. ) But now what ground has J. N. to charge the Quakers with confining the Light within , as to the Act of Illumination , as aforesaid ? For I find no real cause he has thus to charge us from R. B. his speaking of the natural condition of Man , as fallen , degenerate , dead , and deprived of the sensation or feeling of this inward Testimony of the Seed of God , and as subject to the power , nature and seed of the Serpent — and that Man , as he is in this state , can know nothing a right , and that his thoughts and conceptions concerning God and things spiritual are unprofitable to himself and others , until he be dis-joined from this Evil Seed , and united to the Divine Light , P. 8. Apol. fol. 310. And that this holy , substantial Seed many times lyes in Man's Heart , as a naked Grain in stony Ground , Apol. fol. 334. Observe , Whence it does not follow , That wicked Men who have the Light really and truly in them , yet are not actually enlighten'd by it , nor yet that it lyes dormant in them , ( as is inferred , p. 83. ) For tho' natural , degenerate Man , dead in sins , and wicked , hard-hearted Men , have not the true sense and knowledge of the Divine Light it self , it follows not , that they are not at all or in any sense actually enlightened by it ; for when they are at any time convicted and reproved of evil , judged and condemned in themselves for their wickedness and evil deeds , and excited to the contrary , they are thereby so far actually enlightened , tho' they know not that Light it self , nor what it is that doth so convict , reprove , and condemn them ; the Spirit of Truth reproves the World of Sin , &c. yet they neither accept nor see it , ( as they ought to do ) and the Spirit many times blows or breaths upon them , yet they know not whence it comes , nor whither it goes , nor really what it is , tho' it does actually visit and enlighten them ; the Sun shines and the Rain falls actually upon the stony and barren Ground ; so the Lord causeth his Sun actually to arise upon the evil and the good , and the Rain to fall upon the just and unjust . And some grow past feeling and become judicially harden'd through their rebellion and presumptuous sinning against the Light. How often is the Candle of the wicked put out , how oft is destruction upon him ? 'T is therefore often lighted . Concerning what J. N. is pleased to impute to the Quakers in general , viz. That they do not hold their Light to be the very Substance and Essence of the Deity , p. 39. Herein he is mistaken of the People call'd Quakers , who profess God to be our Light and Salvation . And I think his particular Instance from Robert Barclay , impartially considered and compared with other Instances of his , will fall so far short of proving the Charge upon the Quakers , that the contrary will appear for him and the Quakers in this case . His Instance for proof is , viz. That Mr. Barclay saith , By this Seed , Grace and Word of God and Light wherewith we say every Man is enlightened and hath a measure of it , which strives with them in order to save them , and which may by the stubbornness and wickedness of Man's will be quenched , bruised , wounded , pressed down , slain and crucified ; We understand not the proper Essence and Nature of God precisely taken * , but a spiritual , heavenly and invisible Principle , in which God , as Father , Son and Holy Ghost dwells , a measure of which divine and glorious life is in all Men as a Seed , &c. — and this we call Vehiculum Dei , or the Spiritual Body of Christ , the Flesh and Blood of Christ which came down from Heaven , p. 37 , 38. On which J. N. observes thus ▪ viz. I think 't is plain , from this account Mr. Barclay gives of the Light , that tho' it be a Substance , yet 't is not the same with , but really distinct from the substance of God , for 't is not Deus , but Vehiculum Dei. ( Thus far J. N. ) Ans. 1. By the way , ( being sensible where the stress of his Objection lyes , and what Words it most here pinches upon ) I do sincerely propose , That the Divine Light , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Word of God , cannot be confined to those or any such Explications ( here objected ) in a strict or literal sense ; neither shall I insist upon the same ; If J. N. should write another Book ( or more ) thereof , I shall not contest with him about varieties of Words and Terms ( which he may have and know far more of than I ) but for Things and Substance , knowing that the Light is very comprehensive and large in its extent and signification . 'T is said that God is Light , and Christ is the Light , and the Law is Light , and the Commandment a Lamp , and the Word both a Light and Lanthorn . By which manner of speaking , it may then be said , the Word is both the Light and its own Vehicle . And then why may not Christ's Spiritual Body which came down from Heaven , as well be a Light , as Life , Aliment or Food to the Soul ? or as truly as the Saints be the light of the World ( instrumentally ) or Light in the Lord , who enlightens them ? Is not Christ intirely in all respects a Light , as well as all other Spiritual Good to the Soul ? For Christ is not divided . Ans. 2. 'T is certain , that God is Light ( even the Fountain and Fulness of all true Divine Light ) and in him is no darkness at all ; and he hath shined in our hearts , to give us the light of the Knowledge of his Glory in the Face of Christ Jesus our Mediator and Way to the Father ; God is our Light and Salvation in Christ. Therefore for any to suppose R. B. or the Quakers to hold or intend , that the Divine Logos , Word , or true Light , which enlightens all Men , Joh. 1. is not the Divine Essence , or not of the Being or Substance of God , is wrongfully to suppose , that they oppose or deny the plain Testimony of John the Evangelist , which expresly saith , In the Beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God , and that Word was God ; the same was in the Beginning with God ; and that In it was Life , and the Life was the Light of Men , Joh. 1. Which Light therefore was of the very Essence and Substance of the Deity . 'T is certain that Jesus Christ as God enlightens all Men , and as he is God and the heavenly Man he enlivens and quickens the true Believers and regenerates them into his own heavenly Image , 1 Cor. 15. 45. Psal. 119. 25 , 37 , 40 , 50 , 88 , 93 , 147 , 154 Verses . And I am sure R. B. and the People called Quakers , are so far from opposing or denying this Gospel-truth , that both they and he do sincerely own , believe , and confess it . See R. B.'s own Testimony , in his Works , quoted fol. 11. where he expresly saith , Christ is near unto every one , for in him we live and move and have our being ; and this nearness of his unto all Men in a day , is more ( i. e. ) to them than the general presence , in respect whereof he abides with all the works of his hands , forasmuch as he is in them to enlighten them that they may believe , John 1. 9 , &c. Whence 't is plain , that here he owns Christ , and even as God also , to be that true Light in all Men. And likewise in fol. 63. R. B. owns even what his opposer grants , namely , That the Light is in all Men , and that Christ is in all Men , in so far as his Light is in all Men , confessing Christ's Light to be in all Men , even in such as are not in Union with him , adding , That where the Light is , there is Christ the Donator of it , which is all we say . ( Thus far R. B. ) And in fol. 64. he confesseth , An universal manifestation of the Holy Spirit in every one , and that he that believeth in the Light believeth in Christ , for where the Light of Christ is , there is Christ himself , compared with fol. 66. [ Thus far R. B. ] Wherein I hope J. N. and he are agreed , viz. That this Divine Light in Man is of the very Nature , Substance and Essence of God , and his dear and only begotten Son Jesus Christ. And therefore I wish J. N. would be so charitable and tender as not to study either to make or widen Differences or Breaches , in point of Judgment where they are not in reality , if Matters be impartially and truly lookt into and compared . 3. But R. B. supposes a Spiritual Body of Christ , ( or Principle ) which , says he , we call Vehiculum Dei , wherein God as Father , Son and Spirit dwells , ( or appear in Man , as he understands ) and what then ? is this either to deny God or a Light of his Divine Essence to be in Man , when it grants , God , both as Father , Son and Spirit , to be in such a Divine Principle as is in Man ? yea , that Christ the Eternal Word , which was with God and was God , thus dwells in us , fol. 334. which R. B. adds to the words before cited by J. N. against him , wherein he truly supposes , that Christ as in a Seed , or in such a Love ( or Mediatory ) appearance in Men , may be pressed , crucified and slain , as to them who are said to crucifie the Lord of Life afresh unto themselves , yet not as to his own intire Existence or Being , nor as he is the Omnipotent God ; for tho' Christ be a Lamb , and aspersed and crucified to many by their Iniquities , he is also a Lion , and hath power to stir up his strength even in Man when he pleases . And for the Seed of Eternal Life to be sown in us , and that the Lord would raise up his Power in us , these are not new , nor uncouth Expressions , but prayed for even in the Liturgy of the Church of England . As to his words , which we call Vehiculum Dei , ( speaking of the Spiritual Body of Christ ) I conceive he speaks in condescention in the Person of some of the learned Writers or Philosophers who have used those Terms , and not in the Person of the People called Quakers , who are not only esteem'd an illiterate People , but are a plain , simple , innocent People , who most affect plain Scripture-Language , without any School Glosses , or Nice Distinctions , to deck , adorn , or illustrate their Christian Profession of Christ or of his Divine Light within , and many Thousands may not understand the terms , Vehiculum Dei , Intermediate Being , ( nor the word Idea's , so much used by J. N. ) Nor is Jesus Christ Preacht among us under those terms , but in Scripture-terms , both as he is truly God , and as he is the one Mediator between God and Men , even the Man Christ Jesus , as having an inward sight , sense and knowledge of him by his Divine Light , Spirit , Life and Power ; so as we shall not need to fall out about the Names thereof , but prize the Excellency of the Knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord above all the World's Wisdom , natural and acquired Knowledge and Learning , for in him are all the hidden Treasures of true Wisdom and Knowledge . We who are a plain , simple-hearted People , who are content with what God has bestowed upon us , are not willing to trouble our heads with curious Notions , nor with intricate , school Definitions and Distinctions about Words and Names , having an inward feeling of the principal thing , the root of the matter intended . 5. Concerning R. B.'s speaking of the Spiritual Body of Christ , as a heavenly , invisible and Divine Principle , and believing God as Father , Son and Spirit dwells therein , and are to be known and received therein ; I think J. N. has no great reason to differ with him therein , much less to suppose thence , that he or we conclude , the Divine Light , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , mention'd Joh. 1. but a meer Creature . And considering that Doctrin of the Spiritual Body of Christ is that which R. B. intends in all his Discourse of that Subject , J. Norris himself cannot oppose , but rather , grants the probability thereof ( and then where 's the Controversie ? ) For which take a view of his own words , p. 38. 1st Treat . viz. Whether there be any such thing as Vehiculum Dei , or Spiritual Body of Christ , ( which is a Notion several learned Men both before and since the appearance of Quakerism have entertain'd upon the reading the 6th Chapter of St. John ) I have neither Cause nor Mind at present to dispute , p. 38. 1st Treat . And to the same purpose he writes more fully and ingeniously in his second Treatise , p. 17. Which therefore I may here recite in his own words , viz. And here , in the first place , I shall be so free and ingenuous as to declare , that I shall not stand with them concerning any of the Five first Propositions , which may be all true , for ought I know to the contrary . Particularly I shall not stand with them concerning the Spiritual Body of Christ , as distinct from that Natural Body wherein he was incarnate of the Virgin Mary : There may be such a thing for ought I know , or am able to shew to the contrary , and I know , that several among the Ancients have been of this opinion , alledging for its foundation the sixth Chapter of St. John , which , to confess the truth , seems to favour it not a little . And this Hypothesis has been of late to the great surprise and amusement of the stiffer and severer sort of Divines , re-advanced by a person of singular Note and Eminence in our Church , who makes use of it to salve and maintain the Doctrin of the Real Presence , supposing that while the Bodies of the Communicants feed upon the grosser Elements of Bread and Wine , their Souls ( as many of them as are fitly disposed ) do take in and feed upon this Divine and Spiritual Body of Christ , which strengthens and nourishes their Inner Man , and becomes to them a Principle of Regeneration and Spiritual Life , as you may see more fully deduced in his Discourse of the Real Presence , particularly in the first and sixth Chapters of that Treatise . I shall not therefore , I say , contend with them concerning the Spiritual Body of Christ , either as to its Existence , or as to this its Use , whether there be such thing , or whether it be the Principle of Regeneration and Spiritual Life to the Saints : They may be both true , for ought I know , I see nothing absurd , or so much as improbable in them ; and as I do not surrender up my full assent to what I cannot demonstrate to be true , so neither do I care to run down and condemn such Principles which I cannot prove to be false . ( Thus far J. N. ) It may not be amiss here , to insert those 5 first Propositions before mentioned , which he has supposed from our friend R. B. &c. and which he declared he shall not stand with us concerning any of them , for that they may be all true , for ought he knows to the contrary . Prop. 1. p. 14 , 15. They ( meaning the Quakers ) suppose , that the Spiritual Life , or the Life of Holiness and Grace , is a Substantial Life , even as the Life of Vegetation , the Life of Sensation , and the Life of Reason are all substantial . 2. They suppose , that this Substantial Life is by the Vital Union of the Soul with some body or other . 3. They suppose , that this Body in the Vital Union of the Soul , with which Spiritual Life does consist , is a certain Divine or Celestial Body , even as the Natural Life does consist in the Vital Union of the Soul with a Natural or Terrestrial Body of the common Elementary Consistence . 4. They suppose , that Christ had two Bodies of a distinct Original , and of a different Contexture , &c. — a Body which he took from the Virgin Mary , and a Body in which his Soul existed long before he took flesh of the Virgin. These are the very words of Mr. Barclay . To the Question of his adversary , Had Christ two Bodies ? He answers , Yes ; and let him deny it if he dare , without contradicting the Scripture , Joh. 6. 58. Christ speaks of his flesh which came down from Heaven ; but this was not the Flesh he took from the Virgin Mary , for that came not down from Heaven , but he had a Spiritual Body , in which his Soul existed long before he took Flesh of the Virgin. 5. They suppose , that this latter , the Spiritual Body of Christ , is that Divine or Celestial Body in the Vital Union of the Soul , with which our Spiritual Life , or our Life of Grace does consist , &c. That this is that heavenly Manna , that living Bread discoursed of in the 6th of St. John , that Divine Aliment upon which the Saints do feed , and whereby they are nourished unto Everlasting Life . Obj. The premises ( of the whole foregoing matters ) seriously considered and compared , where 's the great difference between J. N. and R. B. ? 1. The one confesseth the Divine , Substantial Essence and Nature of the Deity to be that Light which is in Men. The other confesseth God , as Father , Son , and Spirit , to be the Light in Men , and to be in that Seed , Principle , or Spiritual Body of Christ , which is ( in some degree ) in all Men. 2. The one confesseth the Divine Light of the Word that was with God to be in all Men. The other confesseth Christ , who is that Word , to be in all Men , in some measure . 3. The one confesseth the Spiritual Body of Christ , ( consequently Christ's being in that Body ) The other cannot deny it , but rather assents to it . 4. Both confess the Light of Christ within to be a Divine , Substantial Light and Truth . 5. They differ not about the Divine Essence of the Light , as being of the Nature and Being of God and Christ , as he is the Divine Word or Logos , but somewhat about the mode or manner of its Being , ( Discovery and Reception ) as in Man ; The one supposeth the very Essence and Substance of the Deity to be intimately united to our Minds ; And the other , that 't is in us as in a Medium , i. e. in the Spiritual Body of Christ , ( which is rather assented unto than opposed ) or in and through Christ as Mediator ; for therein he is God's Servant , ( most eminent ) and our Saviour . See Isai. 42. 1 , 6 , 7. ch . 49. 6. ch . 52. 13. & 53. 11. Zech. 3. 8. 6. But the main difference is , That J. N. dislikes and condemns is ( in R. B. and G. K. ) their making the Spiritual Body of Christ to be the Light within , p. 18. Treat . 2d . Concerning which , and his saying , That not even the Soul of Jesus Christ — much less his Spiritual Body can ever be a Light to the Mind of Man , p. 23. Treat . 2d . I ask him if any spiritual part of Jesus Christ , wherein he is received and knowable in Man , can be truly said to be no Light to the Mind or Soul of Man ? How then says Christ himself , I am the Light of the World ; I am the Way , the Truth , and the Life ; No man cometh unto the Father , but by me ? Joh. 14. I could draw strange consequences on J. N. in this matter , but chuse at present to be sparing . To conclude this Comparison for reconcilement . Although R. B. and J. N. acknowledge Christ the Divine Word , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to be the Light within , even that Light which enlightens all Men , the one supposeth 't is as in the spiritual Body of Christ ; and the other cannot tell ; he knows not but there may be such a thing ; However both confess the Light to be a substantial Light , of the Divine Essence and Nature of the Deity . I think in the main the difference is not very great ; not so great as to deserve such severe Reflections and Reproach from J. Norris ; As , That the Notion of the Light within , according as the Quakers explain and represent it , is really ridiculous enough to make the Patrons of it so , and well deserves all the scorn and contempt that is cast upon it , p. 3 , 4. Treat . 2. But I must take leave to tell him , I cannot believe this his Reproach and Contempt which he hath cast on us and our Notion , ( as he calls it ) nor that it can any ways become his Profession , either thus to gratifie Scorners and Contemners , or thus to teach the wicked their way , who scorn and contemn Religion and Truth ; but rather I take it , that he writ this scornful and contemning Passage against us very inconsiderately , and from a groundless Passion ; of which the Lord make him truly sensible , ( and forgive him . ) And also of his undue , censorious and scurrilous detraction , viz. That the Quakers only Cant in some loose and general Expression about the Light , which they confirm with the Authority of St. John ' s Gospel , tho' they understand neither one nor t'other , p. 24. Herein he was too censorious ; we know in whom we have believed , ( we thank God ) and what inward sense and experience we have of his Light and Grace in our Hearts for Life and Salvation from Sin and Death : and what real change and reformation it has wrought and brought forth in us in Life and Conversation● ; Blessed be the Lord our God for ever ; Yea , we can sincerely say , Glory be to the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost . And seeing J. N. saith , That to the like purpose , Mr. Keith , another of their most considerable Writers , speaking of the Seed of God , saith , &c. By his words , to the like purpose , he means , like as R. B. hath declared about the Spiritual Body of Christ , &c. To which I say then , what has been said for R. B. in the case , may serve for Answer to him about G. K. Howbeit , that Faithful Man , R. B. being gone to his rest , and not here to answer for himself , I was the more concerned to take notice of him , and of his own Explications in this Matter . It may be R. Vickeris ( or some else ) may find cause to answer J. N.'s two Treatises more particularly and fully for themselves ; but that I leave . What J. N. saith , That to be a Light to the Mind of Man , is to be to it the Principle of Understanding , to furnish it with Idea's , and to be the immediate Object of its Conception , immediately present to the Mind , and to have the whole perfection of being the Idea's of all things , and to be an Universal Representative , which conditions ( especially the last ) no creature either has or can possibly have ; and therefore no creature is able to be a Light to the Soul of Man , p. 23. Treat . 2. These Propositions we shall not need to dispute , nor oppose the Inference , which affects not our Principle of the Divine and increated Light of God and Christ in Man , and therefore shall not need to examine J. N.'s large Philosophical Demonstrations of the same , Propositions being not denied , but the same in effect asserted by R. B. In his concluding it , A meer Calumny for any one to say , That the Quakers Exhort People to believe in a meer Creature , Apol. 798. Besides , where such Creatures as the Saints in Christ were called the Light of the World , and the Salt of the Earth , and those that were sometimes Darkness , were become Light in the Lord when converted , they were such not of themselves ; nor as meer Creatures , but as joined and united unto ( and made partakers of ) Christ Jesus , and to God in him , who was their Light , their Life , and Salvation , and that heavelily Salt that seasoned and sanctified them . And if they were Light in the Lord , who was their Light , much more Christ Jesus , who is the Fountain of Divine Light and Universal Illumination , in whose Light ( and not as in a Creature ) Men ought to believe , that they may be Children of the Light : And although we believe in God , through Jesus Christ , and 't is through him as our Mediator , that our Faith is truly in God , and not without respect to Christ , and living Faith in him , he being the Author of our Living and Divine Faith , who said , Ye believe in God , believe also in me , Joh. 14. 1. 'T is evident , that accordingly R. B. testifies unto Jesus Christ the Son of God , both as God and Man , Creator and Mediator , saying , ( Apol. p. 274 , 275. ) 1. That Word that was in the Beginning with God , and was God , by whom all things were made , &c. and that this is that Jesus Christ by whom God created all things ; by whom and for whom all things were created that are in Heaven and Earth , &c. Col. 1. 16. Who therefore is called the First-born of every Creature , Col. 1. 15. As then that infinite and incomprehensible Fountain of Life and Motion appeareth in the Creatures , by his own Eternal Word and Power . 2. So no Creature has access again unto him , but in and by the Son , according to his own express words . See Matt. 11. 27. Luke 10. 22. Joh. 14. 6. Hence he is fitly called the Mediator betwixt God and Man , &c. And that there is no knowledge of the Father , but by the Son , and that he is the only Mediator , p. 368. POSTSCRIPT . Friend , John Norris , ON the serious perusal of the Controversie , 1. I do not find , that thou hast exalted the Divine Light of God , and his dear Son , more than the People called Quakers , yet am glad thou hast exalted it so much as thou hast done , beyond many ( if not most ) of thy Brethren ; and I truly wish thy mind may be turned into it , and kept in it , out of all fleshly Wisdom and Imaginations , that thou mayest feel true Divine Life , Power and Wisdom in it , as well as have a Notion of it . 2. I do not see but our Friends exalt Jesus Christ , as Mediator betwixt God and Men , more than thy self : For which please to consider , 1. Thy supposing the very Essence and Substance of the Deity to be so intimately united to our Minds , as that there can be no Medium between God and the Creature , p. 22. Treat . 1. p. 8. Treat . 2. 2. Thy supposing the Light within to be a Man's natural and ordinary way of Vnderstanding , and saying , This is Reason , this is Conscience , ( speaking of the Light ) p. 22. & 55. Tr. 1. [ This I think contradicts the foregoing Supposition . Only it seems to be qualified with thy meaning no more than that this ( the Light ) is that whereby I perform acts of Reason and acts of Conscience . May not R. B. be as easily reconciled about the Light , and the Spiritual Body of Christ , thinkest thou ? ] 3. Thy supposing , that neither the Soul of Jesus Christ , nor his Spiritual Body , can ever be a Light to the Mind of Man , p. 23. Tr. 2. In these three Suppositions , may not I suppose thou leavest no room for Jesus Christ as Mediator , in any degree in Men ? Or hast thou not only said as much herein , as one called a Deist may say , without relation to Jesus Christ , as manifest in several degrees , appearances and operations in Man , as we truly feel him and confess him ? Yet I still confess thou hast suppos'd and profest many general Truths in thy Books in respect to the Divine Light within ; As , That to be actually enlighten'd by this Light , is the Universal Benefit of all Men , yea , of all the Intelligent Creation , p. 23. That 't is the Essential Truth of God , — yet that it does not formally enlighten or instruct me , but when I attend to it , and consult it , &c. p. 24. That in thy account , it ( the Divine Light ) is the very Essence and Substance of the Deity , exhibitive of All Truth , p. 36. On Joh. 1. 4. In him was Life , and the Life was the Light of Men ; that if the Proposition be understood formally , then it proves , that 't is not only a Substance , but also a Divine Substance , strictly speaking even the very Essence of the Deity , &c. p. 40. Not that I would be thought to deny the Divine Light to be Grace , as to the certain degrees of it ; so far from that , that I think it to be the greatest Grace of God , that is with respect to the degrees of it , &c. p. 46. I in this very Book — as well as in the whole course of my other Writings upon this occasion , do all along earnestly contend , that this internal Light is no other than the very Essence and Substance of God , &c. p. 53 , 54. [ Thus far thou J. N. ] with much more of the same import . Now , Friend , ( J. N. ) Hadst thou only insisted on these Truths , and let the People of God called Quakers alone , and not reproacht them with Grossness , Confusion , &c. it had saved both thy self and us farther trouble : I would not have thee reproach or vilifie us any further , but seriously with the Light of Truth consult and consisider what will make most for thy own inward Peace and quiet Life , and if thou art reflected on by any of thy Brethren or Society for confessing the true Light , let not that be a Temptation to thee to evade Truth or reproach us . Many of thy Brethren of the Clergy might see and confess more of the Divine Light in Man than they do , if Avarice , Preaching for Hire , Filthy Lucre , Great Livings , and Worldly Preferments did not blind their Eyes , cloud their Understandings and choak the Good Seed in them ; therefore have a care thereof . Our Testimony for the Divine Light , may be farther seen in many of our ancient Friends Writings , as Samuel Fisher's large Book , Entituled , Rustious ad Academicos , and many of Geo. Fox's Books , and William Dewsbery's Works , ( with divers others ) to which I refer thee ; but chiefly to the Divine Light ( confess'd ) in thy self , for Information and a right Understanding : Which I desire the Lord to give thee ; Who am A real Friend to thy Soul , and a Well-wisher to thee , and all Men , G. Whitehead . London , the 22d 7 Mo. 1692. BOOKS Printed for Tho. Northcott , in George-yard in Lombard-street . RObert Barclay's Works , Collected into one Volume . Price bound , 13 s. John Burnyat's Works , 2 s ▪ 6 d. G. Keith's Answer to the Presbyterians in New England , 1 s. 6 d. — His Way to the City of God , 1 s. — His Fundamental Truths of Christianity , 8 d. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65862-e200 * That is , as to his own distinct , intire Essence , purely considered , without relation to Man , or to the Suffering Nature or Spirit of the Man Christ Jesus , who suffered as . Man , but not as God. 1. Pray what is it then in Man ▪ that is or may be so bruised wounded , pressed down , &c. as R. B. saith ? 2 Can J. N. say 't is the Proper Essence of God precisely taken ? 3 What is the Seed the Son of Man sows in Mens hearts ? Matt. 13. 4. And is nothing of the heavenly Man Christ in it ● Pray consider . 
A65849	----	Christ ascended above the clouds his [brace] divinity--light in man, his being [brace] the Word in saints the only way and rule [brace] vindicated [brace] from the cloudy, erroneous, heretical, and blasphemous conceits of John Newman and his brethren : and the only rule of faith demonstrated for the general information of professours (and people) of all sorts, and the said J.N. his book stiled The light within &c. (with his manifest contradictions) both scripturally, historically, and rationally examined / by a servant of Christ, G. Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1669 Approx. 157 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 36 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). 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A65849) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 106341) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1163:5) Christ ascended above the clouds his [brace] divinity--light in man, his being [brace] the Word in saints the only way and rule [brace] vindicated [brace] from the cloudy, erroneous, heretical, and blasphemous conceits of John Newman and his brethren : and the only rule of faith demonstrated for the general information of professours (and people) of all sorts, and the said J.N. his book stiled The light within &c. (with his manifest contradictions) both scripturally, historically, and rationally examined / by a servant of Christ, G. Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 71 p. [s.n.], London printed : 1669. Errata: p. 71. Imperfect: cropped, stained, with print show-through and loss of print. Reproduction of original in the Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. Includes bibliographical references. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Newman, John, 17th cent. -- Light within. Jesus Christ -- Divinity. Society of Friends -- Doctrines. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Rachel Losh Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Rachel Losh Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion CHRIST Ascended Above the CLOUDS . His Divinity — Vindicated From the cloudy , erroneous , heretical , and blasphemous Conceits of John Newman , and his Brethren . His Light in Man Vindicated From the cloudy , erroneous , heretical , and blasphemous Conceits of John Newman , and his Brethren . His being The Word Vindicated From the cloudy , erroneous , heretical , and blasphemous Conceits of John Newman , and his Brethren . His being In Saints Vindicated From the cloudy , erroneous , heretical , and blasphemous Conceits of John Newman , and his Brethren . His being The only way and Rule , Vindicated From the cloudy , erroneous , heretical , and blasphemous Conceits of John Newman , and his Brethren . AND The ONLY RULE of FAITH DEMONSTRATED , For the general Information of Professours ( and People ) of all sorts . And the said J. N. his Book stiled , The Light within , &c. ( with his Manifest Contradictions ) both scripturally , historically , and rationally examined . By a Servant of Christ , G. WHITEHEAD . Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee . Luke 19.22 . His mischief shall return upon his own head . Psal. 7.16 . Behold , they belch out , &c. Psal. 59.7 . The mouth of them that speak lyes shall be stopped . Psal. 63.11 . Let them be confounded , &c. Psal. 129.5 . London , Printed in the Year , 1669. The PREFACE to the Unprejudiced Reader . IT is real Love and Zeal for God's living Truth and People , which constrains me thus to appear in these Controversies , against such inveterate scornful Spirits and Antichristian Principles , as tend to invalidate and make void the very Life of Christianity and Power of Godliness , by their slighting and reviling the Light within , professed by us the reproached People called Quakers : Which Light , being the very Principle which vvould direct the mind to God and Christ , by whom it is given . Reader , such occasions of publick contest are not of our seeking , nor is it desirable to us , thus to appear against any People professing Religion ( called Sectaries ) but it hath been some few angry men called Baptists , and some other Professors partly of their Faith , who have publickly both in Preaching and Print given us such occasions , by their implacable Enmity vented against us and the truth professed by us , as also by their dis-ingenuous , false , and injurious dealing with us and our Principles , by mistaking and perverting of them in many things , making themselves matter and work to make War with us , as this John N●wman hath in several things , which he hath forged against us as our Principles , which are none of ours . But its prejudice and pride makes such blind men presumptuous . Reader , we find no new thing , nor any more profundity brought forth , by these prejudiced Baptists against us , than the persecuting Hireling Priests did nigh twenty yea●s ago , in their Railing Pamphlets , and Pulpits ; One main Subject of this John Newmans , in his Book , is to prove the Light in every man , not to be Christ ; which he should not need to have done , until it had been so affirmed by us ; for though we do affirm a spiritual divine Light of God , and of his Son , to be in every man , yet it is not our Principle to say that Christ is in every man , or that every man hath the Son ; but a measure of his Light , Grace , or heavenly Gift in all , which would lead out of darkness , and give the knowledge of God's Glory in the face of Christ , and so reveal the Son of God within , whom he that hath , hath the Father also . But this J. N. his enmity against the Light within hath led him so far besides any true sense of God , or reverence to his Gift , as to call it but a feigned Light within , ( though he hath neither demonstrated what the Light within is in its self , nor shewn any reason against it ) and also to endeavour to exclude both God and Christ out of all his People , endeavouring to perswade us , that neither God nor Christ can be in any man , contrary to the manifest Testimonies of both the holy Prophets and Apostles . Reader , in moderation peruse what follows , and let the Truth and its Light within ( not prejudice and darkness j●dge concerning these matters which are principal things in Controversie between us called Quakers , and the Baptists , with other Professors of th● same Spirit ) and here thou mayst see the Controversie is about the Word ; 2dly about the only Rule of Life ; 3dly , About Jesus Christ ; 4thly , and about the Scriptures , whether they be properly to be called the Word , the Foundation and only Rule of Life for all men ( as J. N. asserts of them ) or Jesus Christ his Spirit within to be the only Way and Rule , yea or nay . These Controversies are Scripturally and Rationally discussed in the Sequel . The Principal Passages of this John Newmans Book against our Principle , are in the same Book contradicted , and plainly confuted by himself , and his chief Principles and Contradictions are herein laid down , as collected out of his own Book and briefly noted . Reader , It may seem very wonderful to thee , that any men should have the confidence to undertake to confute others , when they can write very few Pages without contradicting and confuting themselves , and thereby manifesting their own Folly , Distraction , and Confusion , as this J. N. hath done against us , as much as ever I knew any of our Opposers do : What reason can any have to follow or depend on such who have neither Soundness , Stability , nor Consistancy in their own Principles , let the Moderate and Rational Reader judge . This J. N. had been answered , when his Book was newly Published , but that we had several more noted An●agonists to deal withal , wherefore I waved his Book , and did not take time so much as to read it over till very lately , being desired by some Friends , a little to take notice of it ; we have a large Answer to part of it by another Friend , which is laid by till the rest of his Books be published . Reader , I have waved much Falshood and Nonsence , and many Tautological Impertinencies in J. N.'s Book , as not willing further to obtrude upon thy Patience therewith ; also thou mayst take notice that divers of the Subjects here treated on , ( as that about the Light within , and the Scriptures , with other matters of Controversie ) are more fully Discussed and Resolved in our dear Friend Samuel Fisher's Book , entituled , Rusticus ad Academicos , in Answer to John Owen , Tho. Danson , John Tombs , and Rich. Baxter , wherein Presbyterians , Independants , and Baptists are concerned , though none of them could ever Reply to it , but it lyes upon their heads , not Answered by them until this day : Also several considerable Books besides , have divers of us writ , in Answer to many peevish Reviling Pieces of the Baptists , which they never yet Replyed to ; but the Truth is and will be over their heads , and over those envious Spirits among them . Moreover , The Contradictions of some Principal Baptists , and others ( about their Assertion of the Scriptures being the only Rule ) [ in Two late Discourses in London ] may be taken notice of in the sequel . — As also here is Finally a Bill of Excommunication given forth by divers of the principal Baptists about BOW , against one that forsook them and their dead wayes ; wherein the Reader may also take notice of their envy and falshood . London , the 12th month , 1669. CHRIST Ascended above the Clouds , &c. JOHN NEWMAN's Instance to prove the Scriptures the Word , Isa. 28.9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13. The Word of the Lord was to this People , Precept upon Precept , &c. Pag. 6. Answ. [ Scriptures ] signifie writings , and not the Word ; neither doth this Instance prove them to be the Word , for the Prophets of God ( who speak as the holy Spirit moved them ) did both inwardly receive and speak forth Precept upon Precept , here a little , and there a little , from the immediate Spi●it and Power of God , as immediatly taught by him , which is before and above the Scriptures thereof , which no where ●ffirm themselves ( being the writings in an abstract sense ) to b● the Word . Also preaching Jesus Christ the Word , and the Scriptures a●e two things ; the one being in a living Power and Voice , and the other in written Characters . Moreover , the Lord sendeth out his Word , and melteth the Snow , the Hoar-frost , and Ice , Psal. 147.18 . Surely this Word is not the Scriptures . J.N. There are a People labour to blind this Truth , by affirming , That Christ is the Word , not the Scriptures , for they say the Scriptures are the Sayings or Words of God , pag. 13. Answ. To affirm Christ to be the Word and not the writings , but that in them are the words or sayings of God , words of his Covenant , &c. or that they contain a Declaration of God and Christ , is no blinding of Truth , but what is ●ffi●med in , and by the Scriptures themselves , and the Word of the Lord came to the Prophets before they spake forth or writ the words ; see Jer. 1.1 , 2. The words of Jeremiah , to whom the Word of the Lord came . J. N's Instance from Mark 4.14 . What Word was this that the Devil taketh out of mens hearts ? None will think it Christ , but the Scriptures of the New Testament , pag. 17. Answ. The Seed sown in the heart by the Son of man , hath virtue and life in it , in the very being of it , for rooting , growth , and increase of fruit , which is more than the writings which no where in Scripture are called the Seed , and can he say the Son of man did sow some Scriptures in the High-wayes which the Devil took ? Also many retain Scripture in the profession of it , who notwithstanding are but as the high-way ground unfruitful , in whom the Seed of Life doth not take root , so that the Devil doth not steal away the Scriptures or Bible from them , not properly Christ out of their hearts ; but he steals away their hearts and minds , blinding them from the sense and sight of the vertue , life , and light of the Seed , or Word of Life withi● . J. N. The Word of God grew and multiplied , Acts 19.20 . Cannot be understood of Christ , a multiplication of Christ , p. 17 , 18. Answ. Can he then think that Bibles grew and multiplied ? Surely the Word had Life and heavenly Virtue in it , that was capable of growth , and its multiplying was both in the increase of gifts , and adding to the number of them who received it ; and though Christ be but one , yet his Life , his living Word , and Gifts , both grow and increase where he is received . J.N. Christ cannot be the Word , because Christians may and ought to receive his Word into their hearts . Christ is not received into the hearts of men , nor in Person dwell in their hearts , p. 21. Answ. How grosly Erroniously and Irrationally hath he asserted and reasoned that Christ cannot be the Word , because the Word is received into the hearts ; and how contrary to plain Scripture to say , Christ is not received into the hearts , see 2 Cor. 13.5 . Rom. 8.10 . Col. 1.27 . Christ in you except you be Reprobates ; Christ in you the hope of glory , &c. but that Christ in Person doth not dwell in the hearts , who ever affirmed that he doth ? J. N's Instance from Luke 11.28 . Blessed are they that hear the Word of God and keep it . None that will mak● use of Reason , can believe that Christ did intend that Christians should keep himself , for every Christian is kept 〈◊〉 and Christ , 1 Pet. 1.5 . p. 15. Answ. Though Christians be kept by God and Christ , it s through Faith and Obedience in the Light , whereby they continue in both , and retain God in their knowledge , holding the Head which is Christ , and holding fast the faithful Word , keeping the Word of his Patience , such keep the Truth : all which amounts to the same , or is equivolent with keeping Christ , the Word , the Truth , the Life , wherein is the Patience of God , and Faith of the Elect exercised against all Temptations and Tryals , which are not overcome by the writings without , whic● cannot truly be called the Word of his Patience as J. N. doth without distinction , when they express words of his Wrath , Judgment , and Displeasure against sin and wickedness ; But the word of Faith , Life , and Patience in the Soul , immediately expresseth the Love and Patience of God and Christ unto it , to a●m it in times of Afflictions and Tryals ; and this we are to keep . For many both profess and keep Scriptures or Bibles , who are out of the Patience of C●rist . And now I Query , What Reason is it this Opposer would have us make use of , and what is the ground of it in man ? for he speaks of carnal Reason which cannot re●ch God , and also a Reason to be made use of , Pag. 64. Surely we cannot look on him to be such a Mast●r of Reason , as infallibly to distinguish , how highly soever he thinks of himself , whilst he denies and opposeth the Light within , as being but a feigned light ! John N●wman , where 's thy Reason , and what and w●ence is it ? We must not take thy carnal , dark , and prejudiced Conception for Reason ; nor be swayed thereby when thou art ignorant of the very Grounds and Principles of true Reason , and so much opposest plain Scripture , which hypocritically thou pretendest for thy only Rule . J.N. To deny the Scriptures to be the Word of God , is to deny the very fountain and well-spring of comforts * to the Soul in Affliction , which is brought out of the Promises in the Scriptures to the Soul by the Spirit through Faith , p. 44. Answ. How grosly Erroneous is it to deem the Scriptures the very Fountain and Well-spring of comforts ; and to say , that the Spirit brings the Comforts from thence to the Soul ; whereas God is the Fountain , which to say of the Writings , is all one , and as blasphemous as to say they are God , as some of the Ranters have said ; & as once one of them affirmed to me , at Emnith , near Wisbitch , That the Bible which I had in my hand was God ; but he quickly after came to be distracted . — 2dly , The Spirit and Gift of Christ , is as a Well of Living Water in true Believers , and it is the Spirit of Promise the Comforter , having the Life of all Gods Promises and Truth of Scriptures in it self from God the Fountain ; and this Spirit is infinite , and so not ●ontained in the Scriptures , though it contains the truths that are in the Scriptures of Truth ▪ for they came from the Spirit ; and it opens the understanding in the Scriptures as it 's waited in . J.N. — His sad Consequences ( which he thinks do follow the denying the Scriptures to be the Word and Rule ) proved inconsequent , and his great Ignorance therein detected . — In Answer to his 43 , 44 , 45 pages . There are no sad Consequences as he asserteth in denying the Scriptures to be the Word and Rule for Salvation . And Fi●st , I doth not take away the ground of Faith for Remission . 2dly , Nor Assurance , for Christ and his Light within , is the Ground and Foundation of Faith and Assurance . 3dly , Nor doth it make void the Exercise of Faith in the precious Promises ; for the Spirit of Promise , both as a Rule manifests the Promises , exerciseth Faith in , and fulfils them . 4thly , Nor doth it deny the Comforts of Faith from the Promises , the Spirit of Promise being both the Comforter , and sheweth us things to come . 5thly , Nor doth it destroy the support & supplies of Grace to the Soul in affliction ; For these we receive from God in his own Spirit , and not from the writings outward . 6thly , Nor doth it deny the knowledge of Acceptance , for that is given to us by the Spirit of God , by which we are sealed unto the day of Redemption , and know that we are o● God , and the Mystery of Life and Salvation is revealed unto us by the Spirit . 7thly , Where the Spirit of Truth and its Light within is obeyed and truly owned to be the Guide and Rule , it leaves not men in the dark , nor out of the knowledge of God , or enjoyment of Life eternal : But to deny the Spirit , or Ligh● 〈◊〉 Christ , to be the Rule for Life and Salvation , doth leave 〈…〉 dark , void of saving Knowledge and Life . J.N. 8thly , Without this ( viz. the Scriptures to be 〈◊〉 &c. ) we know not that there is any God , or Christ , or Salvation by God in Christ , nor by what means it may be obtained ( all men are left in the dark ) and no man knoweth how to enjoy Life Eternal , pag. 45. Neither do we know what God counteth unclean , and what holy ; And in short , without the Scriptures we know not any promise that belongeth to this life , or that to come ; these dreadful conclusions will follow , denying the Scrip●ures to be the Word and Rule to Salvation , and it leaves men to walk by fancy and imagination . Answ. Poor men ! you h●ve shewn your selves s●fficiently herein , and what an empty implicit Faith you are in , and how void both of the knowledge of God , Christ , and Salvation you are , and how yet in your sins , having denied Christ and his Light within to b● your Rule , Way , and Foundation , as he is to his followers ; and so you are walking by your fancies and imaginations , w●o ●et the Scriptures in the place of Christ , as your only and absolute Rule and Ground of your Faith and Knowledge . And then , if one should ask you , How you prove the Scrip●ures to be true , if they must be the absolute and only Rule , and none other , then you m●st prove them by themselves , or plead their own authority from an implicit Faith you have of them ; which is but still an absurd way of reasoning , or assaying to convince gain-sayers , being but Petitio principii , a begging the Question . And how would this convince either Papists , Turks , Jews , Infidels , or Athiests , to tell them our Bible , or Scriptures , are infallibly true , and the only Rule to know there is a God and a Christ , and Salvation by him ; and to know what God counteth unclean , and what holy . And then what a sad sentence of no less than Condemnation doth this pass upon all People and Nations , who have not the Scriptures , as being all void of knowledge th●t there is either God , Christ , Salvation good or evil , whereas there is a living Evidence throughout the Creation , or Works of God therein , of the eternal Power , or Maker ; see Psal. 19. Rom. 1. Job 12. and many do know , and have known these things written of ( which concerns Salvat●●● by the Light of God and Christ , in them that never could 〈◊〉 or had the Scriptures outwardly ; as those Gentiles which 〈◊〉 the Law , yet did those things contained in it , and shewed 〈◊〉 ●ffects of the Law written in their hearts , Rom. 2. though the Scriptures are profitable to the Man of God , who hath them , being led by his Spirit which opens them . J.N. The Eternal Power and Spirit that was in Christ , cannot properly be called Christ ; this Power or Spirit is God , and not Christ. Answ. Contrary to plain Scriptures , opposing both the Divinity and Deity of Jesus Christ , who is both the Power and Wisdom of God , 1 Cor. 1. The second Adam , the quickning Spirit , ch . 15.45 . And the Father , the Word , and Spirit , are One , 1 Joh. 5.7 . J.N. The will and mind of God is contained in the Scriptures , in order to mans Salvation , p. 49. Answ. The Word [ contained ] is erroneously place ; for the Writings contain only a Declaration of the Mind and VVill of God in order to Salvation . God and his Mind , Thoughts , VVill , and Wayes , are Infinite ; and the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain Him. J.N. The Word was in the beginning , but Christ was in time , not till he had taken Nature upon him , and became in the likeness of sinful Man , being born of the Virgin Mary . — Christ was not the Word before Christ was , pag. 50 , 51. Answ. This Assertion opposseth the Deity and Divinity of Jesus Christ , and contradicts the faithful Testimonies of the Holy men of God in the Scriptures of Truth . For if the Son of God was not the Word , nor in the Beginning , nor before the Virgin Mary , then Jesus Christ was not God , but is represented as a finite Creature . But the Erroneousness of this is apparent , for the Word was with ( and was ) God in the beginning , by which he created the Heavens , and framed the Worlds , Joh. 1.1 , 2 , 3. Heb. 11.3 . And that this Word was Jesus Christ , is plain ; seeing it's expresly said , God created all things by Jesus Christ , Eph. 3.9 . Yea , all things visible and invisible were created by him , Col. 1. But if Jesus Christ , the Son of God , was not in being before he took flesh in the womb of the Virgin ( or was not before Mary ) how could all things be created by him ? And Nebuchadnezzar was of a better belief than to think that the Son of God was not in his time ; for he said , Lo , I see four men loose , walking in the midst of the fire , and they have no hurt ; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God , Dan. 3.25 . And was not this before Mary , or Christ's outward-birth of her ? All ye Baptists answer me , what Scripture had he for that ? And Christ is called the Wisdom and Power of God , 1 Cor. 1.24 , 30. And was not this He ( the only begotten of the Father ) that said , I was set up from Everlasting ? before the Earth ? and when there was no Depths was I begotten , before the Mountains were setled , and before the Hills was I begotten ( or brought forth ) Prov. 8.23 , 24 , 25. And also see that Prophesie of Christ , Mich. 5.2 . Thou Bethlehem-Ephratah , though thou be little among the thousands of Judah , yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me , that is to be Ruler in Israel , whose goings forth have been from of old , from everlasting : which plainly proves the Eternity and Divinity of Jesus Christ , against such Baptists , and Professors , as this our Opposer J. N. who also in his Antichristian Doctrine of denying Christ to be the Word , or to be in the beginning , hath followed the steps of those old reputed Hereticks mentioned in the Ecclesiastical Chronography , viz. The Allogians , who denied Christ to be the Word ( as this J. N. hath done ) and of them it is said , They condemned the Gospel after John , ( who gave such a plain Testimony for the Divinity of Jesus Christ , Joh. 1. ) Also Theodatas denied the Divinity of Christ , and he , it 's said , was the first Author of that Heresie of Artemon , who took Christ but for a bare and naked Man , which is like this Assertion , That Christ was in time , not ( the Word ) in the beginning , nor till He became in the likeness of Man , being born of Mary ; which hath also affinity with that of Arrias , and his Sect , called Arrians ; who said , That the Son of God had a beginning of Essence , that there was a time that He was not : And doth not J. N. affirm as much , That there was a time when Christ was not , the Word was in the beginning , not Christ : which is like also to that of Photinus , Bishop of Sirmium , who ( as it s said ) maintained the Heresie of Sabellius ag●inst Christs Divinity , and said , The Word was at the beginning with the Father , but not the Son , Eccl. Chro. fol. 584. Soc. l. 2 , c. 24. Ephiphan . Haeres . 71. Also several others noted in History for Hereticks held the like . Also if J. N. or the Baptists , should use these words , as his Doctrine impor●s , when they Baptize ( viz. ) I Baptize you in the Name of tne Uncreated God , in the Name of the Son Created , &c. would they not then plainly appear like Eunomius , Bishop of Cyzicum , teaching his Heirs ( viz. ) That the Son was Created ; as when he Baptized all that came to him , In the Name of the Uncreated God , in the Name of the Son Created , &c. Eccl. Chro. fol. 583. Now if John Newman did think to be more Pop●lar , and gain Repute by this Piece , intended against the Quakers , he will be frustrated of his end , when his Antichristian and corrupt Doctrines come to be viewed in this Treatise , and the Baptists , and others , that have owned him therein , may be ashamed of him , and his works ; and it would be more reputable and commendable for him and them all , to study to be quiet , and charitable , to follow peace with all men , and not to revile the Light and Christ within , as but a feigned Light , or Christ ; nor to to oppose the Divinity of Christ , the Son of God , as he hath done . J. N. His Names , Jesus Christ , are not attributed to his God-head , but to his Man-hood ; For his Name , Jesus , signifies a Saviour ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Anointed ; He was not Jesus , or a Saviour , as he was God , p. 51.65 . Answ. Though Jesus signifies a Saviour , and Christ Anointed ; yet to confine those Names only to the Manhood , still agrees with the erroneous Doctrines before , That Christ was not the Word from the beginning ; whereas He took upon him the Man-hood in time ; in which , though we own Him as the Anointed of God , yet He was also God's Anointed as He was His only begotten , and delight , ( and so the Son from His Eternal Being or Substance ) before the Mountains and Hills were settled . Also J. N. ( though to his own confutation ) grants , That He was the Son of God from the beginning , pag. 66 , 67. ( and the● He was God's Anointed from the beginning ) But his saying , That He was not Jesus , or a Saviour as He was God , is still as gross and false Doctrine as the former , denying God to be a Saviour , which is contrary to plain Scripture . O God of Israel the Saviour , a Just God and a Saviour , there is none b●sides me , see Isa. 45. And also this J. N. notwithstanding he thinks he hath proved his matter by Scripture elsewhere , ( wherein he would shew himself some noted Divine ) now he would shew us what a profound Logician , or Mr. of Arts he is , as if he would confirm his matter , stop our mouths , and bind us down thereby with an invented Argument . His Argument runs thus : Argument . If Christ as Christ was not from the beginning , then Christ was not the Word from the beginning . But Christ as Christ , was not from the beginning . Therefore , &c. pag. 52. Answer . The first Proposition , in that it renders Christ and the Word both one , contradicts himself in his denying Christ to be the Word . For , however it must follow from this Argument , That Christ was , when the Word was . Christ being the Word , and so the Word , Christ. So that , if the Word was from , and in the beginning ; then Christ was from the beginning ; but the Word was from the beginning , &c. And then this flatly contradicts his whole Assertion , and proves it false , which with the pretended Reason thereof being not grounded upon any general Rule , or Maxim , of either Truth , Scriptures , or Reason ( as all Arguments ought to be ) but upon a meer Heretical Opinion that denies the Divinity of Christ , in denying him to be from the beginning , either as Christ , or as the Word . Now , doth not this deny Christs very being in the beginning , and make way for that old Heretical Opinion , That Christ , or the Son of God , was not in being before the Virgin Mary . But to give my Opposer his Due every way , I judge he has out-run himself in this matter at unawares , for he hath ( though to his own Confutation ) confessed , That Christ was the Son of God from the beginning ; and was He not then the Anointed ? For , if the Son , then the Anointed ; And his words ( Christ as Christ was not ) supposes that He was in some other capacity ; yet his denying Him to be , either as Christ , or the Word , from the beginning , is contrary to plain Scriptures . For , in the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God , &c. Joh. 1. And He was in the VVorld , and the VVorld was made by Him , and the VVord was made Flesh , and dwelt among us , ( speaking of Christ : ) So that He was in the beginning the VVord , and is still Jesus Christ , the same yesterday , to day , and for ever . J. N. This Word cannot be Christ , because it is here called the Seed by which they were begotten in the New-birth , pag. 56. Answ. See how contrary to plain Scriptures he reasons ; for Christ is called the Seed ; unto which the Promises are , Gal. 3.16 . And He is that Word , which begets into the New-birth , and not the Letter ; and this Seed is Living and Incorruptible , though the Devil steals away the hearts of many from the sense of the the Seed or Word of Life , as he hath blinded the minds of Infidels , 2 Cor. 4.4 . J.N. Ministers are called Angels , Rev. 2. yet there is no Man that is an Angel , p. 59. Answ. Yes : If he be an Embassador , Messenger , or Minister , he is an Angel. J.N. Christ cannot dwell in Man , for Christ is perfect Man , as well as perfect God , p. 61. Answ. To say Christ cannot dwell in Man , doth not only oppose His Spirituality , Deity , and OMNIPOTENCY ; but also is contrary to the Apostles plain Testimonies of Christ's being in the Saints : And if He be perfect God , he can dwell i● His People as He hath promised ; and su●ely His being perfect Man , doth not put a limitation upon Him , as a let or hinderance , to disable Him from being in His People , whilst He who was Christ , as come in the Flesh , was also truly Jesus Christ within , in his Spi●itual appearance ; and we do not confine Him under this , or that particular Name . His Names are divers in Scriptures , according to His Manifestations , Offices , and Works : He is called Emmanuel , God with us . He is called Jesus Christ ; The Way ; The Truth ; The Light ; The Life ; The Seed ; The Son ; The Everlasting Father ; The Word ; The Power of God ; A Quickning Spirit , &c. J.N. Christ Jesus , after He rose , He was still a Body of Flesh ; [ Contradiction ] the God-head took Flesh in the Womb of Mary ; the Mystery of Godliness , God manifest in Flesh , &c. pag. 52 , 60 , 63. Answ. Christ Jesus was more than a body of flesh , for he was Spirit as well a● flesh [ He was Lord from Heaven . ] Neither is Man made up simply of a body of Flesh , being a complex or composition of parts , of Body , Soul , and Spirit . Also , there is a manifest inconsistency between these words ( He was still a body of flesh ] And [ He took flesh , or was God manifest in flesh . ] J. N's Argument . If he rose Jesus Christ , then he rose Flesh and Blood , and also Man. But he arose Jesus Christ. Therefore Flesh and Blood , &c. — And he did ascend with the same body , and is still at the right hand of God with a body of fl●sh , &c. p. 64 , 65. [ Contradiction ] As we have born the Image of the Earthly-man , so we are now to bear the Image of the Heavenly , which is Christ Jesus , p. 89. Answer . Though I grant , That Christ arose with the same body that was Crucified and put to Death , and that he ascended into Glory , even the same Glory which he had with the Father before the World began ; And that the same that Descended , was the same that Ascended far above all Heavens , Eph. 4. And as Christ said , What and if ye see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before ? Joh. 6. Yet the Argument is fallaciously , and corruptly sta●ed , in the manner of it ; the Inference of the first Proposition , and so the Consequence being inconsequent to it ( carrying no proof along in it ) for it still strictly limits , or tyes up the Name Jesus Christ to a body of flesh and blood , and so covertly denies His being , before he took on him , that visible body of flesh , blood , and bones , and so opposeth his Divinity as before . Whereas He was the Spiritual Rock which all Israel drank of long before . And as to His being at the right hand of God , I grant according to the Scriptures , but cannot believe His body to be a carnal body in Heaven , or that He consists of a carnal existence . And further , these words are not the Scripture language ( viz. ) to say , That Christ is a body of flesh , blood , and bones in Heaven , and a Personal being at the right hand of God , without all Men , remote , as J. N's terms are . But these words [ Spiritual Body , Glorious Bo●y , One Body , and One Spirit , and that the Saints discerned and ea● the Lord's Body , were Members of His Body , &c. And , except ye eat my Flesh , and drink my Blood , you have no life in you , saith Christ ] These are Scripture terms , and language ; So neither is Chri●t , nor God's right hand , so limitted to a remoatness from them ; And as we have born the Image of the Earthly-man , so we must bear the Image of the Heavenly , which is Christ Jesus [ this is true . ] But the definition that J. N. hath given of Christ Jesus , the Heavenly Man , is , That He is a body of flesh and blood , a personal being , not in man. From whence it follows , That this Heavenly Image men must bear , or be changed into , is a personal Image of flesh , blood , and bones ; as if they had not such a body , or Image before . Whereas the Heavenly man is spiritual , and so is His Image . And the Apostle distinguisheth between the Natural body and the Spiritual body ; as he doth between the bodies that are Coelestial , and the bodies Terrestrial , 1 Cor. 15. And further , to take off Objections and Scruples , I confess that according to the Flesh , Jesus Christ came of the Seed of David , and the body that He took upon him , or that was prepared for him to do the will of God in upon Earth , was a real [ and not a fantastical ] body , and that according to the flesh He was put to death , or died for our sins according to the Scriptures , and was buried , and rose again the third day , and was after seen of the Disciples , and of above five hundred Brethren at once , and that He was seen of James , then of all the Apostles , 1 Cor. 15. To which the Apostle Paul adds , vers . 8. And last of all he was seen of me also , as of one born out of due time . And how did he appear unto Paul ? Even by Revelation ; God revealed his Son in him . It was the same Son of God , who appeared va●iously , ( both visibly and invisibly ) ; after His Resurrection he appeared in various forms , and shewed Himself diversly : First to Mary Magdalen ; 2dly , to other Women ; 3dly , to the Disciples , as they went to Emaus ; 4thly , to James ; 5thly , to Peter ; 6thly , to the Apostles when the Doors were shut ; 7thly , to more than five hundred Brethren , as aforesaid : after he appeared to Thomas , when he said , Reach hither thine hands , &c. Mat. 28. Mark 16. Luke 24. Iohn 20. 1 Cor. 15. Once he said to them , Handle Me , Luke 24.39 . another time to Mary Magdalen ( when she thought him to be the Gardener ) Touch Me not , Joh. 20.17 . And it 's said , Luk. 24.30 , 31. as he sate at meat with them , He took bread and blessed and brake it , and gave to them , and their eyes were open , and they knew Him , and He vanished out of their sight . Now seeing that he appeared so diversly , being capable by the mighty Power of God , to be changed beyond the reach of man's natural reason ; for any to shew themselves so nice , curious , and intruding in these matters , with unscriptural and unlearned Questions , or presumptuous Assertions , to shew themselves wise above what is written , as many of these forward Baptists have done ; they cannot therein be gratified , for both their foolish , and unlearned Questions are to be avoided , and they may be answered as the Angel did to the Devil , when he disputed about the body of Moses , The Lord rebuke thee , &c. And as the Apostle did those fools who enquired , what body the dead are raised with , 1 Cor. 15.35 , 36 , 37. And it 's manifest hypocrisie in Men , to pretend the Scripture to be their Rule , when they 'l not keep to the terms and language thereof : But at a publick Dispute between some of Vs and some Baptists , at Chersey in Surry , when a Question about the body of Christ in Heaven , was ignorantly obtruded by W. Burnet , his Brother Jer. Ives [ in Answer to my treating of Christ's various Appearances after He rose ] said , What change or alteration His body might have , We cannot determine , nor what glory He is in ; for to enquire with what body the dead are raised , is absurd , &c. Yet for all this , how apt are many of them to urge their unlearned Questions in these matters , notwithstanding the great Confusion & vain Imaginations that many Professors have fallen into , through their unlearned Questions , and perverse Disputes , about the Body of Christ. If t●is were considered , it might be some stop to them from ●uch intruding , as , How He appeared among the Disciples when the Doors were shut ? Some of the Professors have said , It might be , that He came in at the Chimney top . Others , It might be , He glyded in at the Key-hole of the Door . Others , That He might come in at the Door , and hold their eyes in th● mean time , that they could not see when He opened it : And because fl●sh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven , many Professors have said , That Christ's Body in Heaven , is a body of flesh and bones , without blood in it . And also , some of the Priests have affirmed Christ to be in Heaven with a carnal body . But these are all unscriptural Suppositions , and Imaginations of vain minds ; who neither know the Scriptures , nor the Power of Godliness , nor the Mysteries of Christ , or his Image revealed within ; but by their corruptions , and perverting Scripture , endeavour to shut both God and Christ out of his People , and so to confine and limit the Holy One ( who is not to be limited ) as this J. N. doth . J.N. If he ( Jesus Christ ) be with the Father , then he is not in Man ; — a feigned Christ , and Light within , pag. 47 , 66 , 72. [ Contradiction ] Let your Conversation be in Heaven , from whence we look for a Saviour . Answ. Why ? Doth His being with the Father , or at His right hand in Heaven , hinder Him from being in his People ? This is a gross Error , and contrary to plain Scripture , 2 Cor. 13. Know you not , how that Jesus Christ is in you , except ye be Reprobates ; and this is neither a feigned Christ , nor a feigned Light , as blasphemously and scornfully he words it . And what doth J.N. think or imagine concerning God His right hand and being ? And Christ at God's right hand , that he thus would exclude , limit , and seem to confine them out of all men ? Doth not this oppose the Infiniteness and Omnipresence of God , and Jesus Chri●●● , ●nd bring them under the limitation of finite creatures ? an● 〈◊〉 their Deity ; whereas Christ ascended far above all Heav●●● , that he might fill all things , Eph. 4. And He being the exp●●●s Image of his Fathers substance . Now if God , and his right hand be so carnally thought on , under such a limitation as before , Wherein doth J.N. and his Brethren differ from those old Hereticks . Andaeus , and the Anthropomorphites ( as they are called ) who were Monks that Inhabited the Deserts of Egypt , who thought that God had a body , and was like a Man in shape ; misconstruing that saying , Let US make Man after Our Image , &c. Upon whose gross Opinion it rose , That God hath been painted like an Old Man with a gray beard , &c. As also , the late blasphemous Dreamers , Reeve and Mugleton , [ who have named themselves the two last Witnesses ] have affirmed God to be of the form , bigness , and stature of a Man , and so having hands and parts of a Man , and Christ ( as such ) at his right hand , they denying God to be an infinite Spirit : But against all such carnal gross conceits We testifie , and confess to God's Infiniteness , and Christs Ascension , both into Heaven , and far above all Heavens , that He might fill all things ; and that God both dwells , and walks in his People , and his right hand of Power is where he is , and C●rist there inseparably with [ and in ] the Father ; His being so Anointed , Dignified , and Exalted , doth not exclude Him out of His People , whose Conversation is also with him in Heaven . And David said , O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee , and thy right hand hath holden me up , Psal. 17.7 . & 18.35 . & 20.6 . & 60.5 . & 63.8 . & 73.23 . So that neither the Infinite God , nor his Son , nor his Right hand of strength can be circumscribed , or limitted into a separation , or remoteness from the Children of the Light , who are saved by the right hand of God , whose Hand and Power is spiritual . J. N. From Rev. 1.7 . Those that pierced him in his body of flesh , shall see that body visibly come again . Answ. These are not the words of Scripture , but added ; although , to add or diminish be forbidden under a penalty , Rev. 22.18 , 19. yet this man's presumption leads him to incur that : See also for Answer to him , Rev. 1.7 , 8. & 13.14 , 16. In none of which is Jesus Christ either called ( or represented as ) a body of flesh , blood , and bones , visibly to come again ; but that he is Alpha and Omega , the first and the last , vers . 11. And Christ in the dayes of his flesh ( wherein he visibly appeared to the World ) said , Yet a little while and the World seeth me no more , Joh. 14.19 . But his second Coming and Appearance without sin to Salvation , I own and witness ; and that he is therein to be seen spiritually in his Kingdom , & Father's Glory ( which is an invisible Glory , not seen carnally ) [ mark that ] Howbeit his Appearance shall be universally seen , both to the joy of the Righteous , and universal conviction and condemnation of the wicked , who have rejected his Light within , and his saving Appearance thereby made manifest . Yea , every Eye shall see him ( both of good and bad ) both those that have waited for his second Coming without sin to Salvation ; and they also which have pierced or crucified him ; which all those in general are chargeable with ( as really as his Persecutors that pierced him outwardly ) who profess his Name , and yet Crucifie to themselves his Life , or spiritual Appearance . He was spiritually pierced and crucified in spiritual Sodom and Egypt . — And this sin , you carnal conceited Professors and Hypocrites are guilty of , who despise him and his Light within , counting them a feigned Christ , and a feigned Light within , as this our Opposer hath blasphemously done ; but the same Jesus , as he was seen ascend , ( when a cloud received him out of their sight who stood gazing , Acts 1.9 , 10 , 11. ) it is said , shall so come in like manner , &c. which though every like manner is not the very same , nor all clouds the same , yet the same Jesus certainly cometh , and in like manner , his coming being in the clouds : Behold , he cometh with clouds ; and you shall see him to your sorrow , who talk of his Name and Coming , and yet depart not from Iniquity ; for out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp two-edged Sword , Rev. 1.16 . to cut you down with all your Hypocrisie , carnal conceits , and feigned Profession of Christ , without the sense of his Power , Life , or Light within . J.N. Hope to the end , for the grace that shall be brought to light at the revelation of Christ ; and this revelation will be from Heaven , not in man , pag. 71. Answ. This Inference and Conclusion is false , and contrary to the Apostles plain Testimony . For as whatsoever might be known of God , is manifest within ; So the Revelation of Jesus Christ the Son of God , is within , to the true believers in his Light : And no man knoweth the Son , but the Father ; neither knoweth any man the Father save the Son , and he to whom the Son will reveal him ; And God revealed his Son in Paul , Gal. 1.16 . his Glory was to be revealed in the Believers and Sufferers for Christ. And surely , as they hoped , looked , or waited in the measure of Grace or Light received for the Revelation , Appearance , or second Coming of Christ to Salvation in their dayes , their hope and expectation therein was not void , nor they disappointed thereof ; as theirs is like to be , who are expecting that Christ's second Coming , or Appearance to Salvation will be a Personal Coming , and his Reign a Personal Reign ; which word [ Personal ] they add to the Scripture , and to the Book of the Prophesie of John ; to wit , the Revelation ; not truly minding the penalty they incur by adding , as mentioned , Rev. 22. And so where they add the word [ Personal ] or [ in Person ] to his Coming again ; [ or Personal being , &c. ] do they not herein shew their carnal expectations , mean thoughts , and unscriptural conceptions touching Christ , his Divine Life , Being , and coming to Salvation ? And their knowledge not to be divine , nor after the Spirit ? For where doth the Scripture say , That Christ shall come the second time in Person to save ? Or , that he shall Reign in Person , or Personally Reign ? &c. [ But about this Point , and several other things , Baptists do not accord , and other Proffesions also are divided . ] And so likewise some imagine , That the new Jerusalem ( Prophesied of , that should come down from Heaven ) must be some ou●ward City or Place , consisting of fair buildings outwardly ; and so might they not as well imagine of the Temple thereof , that it is some fair outward structure ? whereas the Lord God , and the Lamb , is the Temple and Light thereof ; and the Nations of them that are saved , shall walk in the Light of this holy City . J. N. By denying any personal being of Christ without all men at the right hand of God , but only a feigned Christ within ; then Remission of sins must die , and Faith also , for want of the object Christ , p. 73 , & 74. Answ. This manner of excluding God's right hand , and Christ to a limitation out of his People in a personal being ( which are no Scripture terms ) still implyes him to be a Personal God or Ch●ist : like the Anthropomorphites and Muggletonian's conceits of Him. And J.N. his scornfully and blasphemously calling Christ and his Light within , a feigned Christ ; not owning Jesus Christ within as the object of Faith. This is both contrary to the true Faith and its Righteousness , and savours not of any real knowledge of Christ , in this scornful man. For the true Faith , and its object or foundation , are inseparable ; see 2 Cor. 13.5 . Examine your selves , whether ye be in the Faith : Prove your selves : Know you not your own selves , how that Jesus Christ is in you , except ye be Reprobates . So that their knowledge and proof of their being in the Faith , was their knowledge of Jesus Christ in them , as their foundation , &c. and this was not a feigned Christ , and in him the Remission of sins is known , to them that are in the Faith. Paul was sent to turn the Gentiles from darkness to the Light , and from the power of Satan to God , that they might receive the remission of sins , and an inheritance among them that are Sanctified . And this was the Light of Christ within . And the Righteousness which is of Faith , speaketh in this wise , Say not in thine heart , who shall ascend into Heaven ( that is , to bring Christ down from above ) or who shall descend into the Deep ( that is , to bring up Christ again from the Dead ) But what saith it ? The Word is nigh thee , &c. ( yea , very nigh thee . ) Mark , The Righteousness of Faith doth not shut Christ the Word ( or object of Faith ) out of the hearts of true Believers ; but the Word of Faith is nigh , even in the heart , &c. And we know the Power of God , and true Remission thereby , is inwardly felt by all the Children of the Light ; and that Living Faith that stands in the Power , and Word of God within sh●ll not die , nor be void ; nor miss of its blessed end , which is Salvation . J.N. ●he Spirit of God , I my self own , and daily pray for : The same Spirit I own , though not distinct from the Scriptures : They canot be separated one from the other in their Nature and Purity , p. 91 , 94 , 1.10 . Answ. Are the Scriptures and the Spirit inseparable ? and yet thou hast the Spirit daily to pray for , when thou hast the Scriptures . What Confusion is this ? Whereas , if they be inseparable , it follows , that all ●●at have the Scriptures , must necessarily have the Spirit also ; which is false , for the unbelieving Jews , who had Scriptures , & thought to have had Eternal Life in them ( like such as you , who make them the ground of your Faith and Assurance ) yet they would not come to Christ that they might have Life . Also , where thou affirmest , The Scripture and the Spirit cannot be separated one from another in their nature and purity : This is all one as to say , The Scriptures are as incorruptible as the Spirit ; which is a gross Error , and contradicted by thy self , in thy 104 , 105 , 106 pag. where thou hast granted , That Abel , Enoch , Abram , Isaac , Jacob , Noah , &c. had a sufficient Rule before the Scriptures were written , ( viz. ) The Spirits Rule ; God's Speaking and Directions to them from his own mouth ; and that they had a more infallible Word to walk by , than is now to us ; for it 's possible , that some Scriptures may be corrupte● , having been in the hands of corrupted men , &c. Thus far thou J. N. hast confuted thy self , and manifestly broke the neck of thy own Cause : — First , in that thou hast confessed to a more infallible Rule , or Word , than the Scriptures ; so that the Scriptures are not the only Rule , nor yet the ground of Faith & Assurance , as often thou hast falsly misrepresented them . 2dly . In that the Scriptures might be corrupted , they are not inseparably one with the Spirit in Nature and Purity . 3dly . Thou having granted , That the Directions , or Word th● Ancients had from God's own mouth , was impossible that should be corrupted , p. 106. From whence it follows , That the immediate Word and Directions of God , are the only infallible Rule ( in all such as receive them ) and not the Scriptures , which might be corrupted , as is confessed . But whereas thou sayest , The New Testament Letter that now is , is to be our Rule , p. 103. And often sayest , The Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith for all men to walk by , unto the end of t●● World , and none other , &c. Herein thou hast set the Letter or Writing above the Spirit and its immediate Directions from God , contrary to what thou hast acknowledged ; as if thou wouldest now place all Rule upon the Letter , and leave no room for that which thou hast confest to be more infallible : and thus thou art found shuffling , saying and unsaying , reeling to and fro , like a man drunk in Confusion ; For , though many times wherein thou hast granted to truth , contrary to thy own corrupt Principle , thou dost not keep to it , but turnest round again to thy own Confusion , which in the tenour of it runneth thus , viz. The Letter is the only Rule for all men to the Worlds ●nd , nay , the Rule of the Spirit , or immediate Word , which the Ancients had before the Scriptures were written , was a more infallible Rule than the Scriptures , for they might be corrupted . But to go round again , They cannot be separated in their Nature and Purity , &c. Is it not easie to see here , what a labyrinth of Confussion and self-Contradictions thou art run into , who hast presumed to confute others , though to thy own final Confutation . — And seeing thou pretendest to pray for , and own the Spirit of Truth in its help or work ( as thou sayest ) in the Word ; Doest tho● mean that the Spirit is in the Scriptures , not distinct from them ? Or , That it cannot be separated from the Letter , according to thy words before ? What then , Doest thou think that the Spirit is essential in the Writing ? and so , that all that have the Scriptures , must needs have the Spirit ? as it follows from thy own words ; whereas there 's a multitude of Examples to the contrary , even in this Age and Nation , of both many Hypocrites , and empty Professors , and others , who are not led by the true Spirit , and yet have the Scriptures ? As also thou thy self , who professest the Scripture to be thy only Rule , yet art found in Confusion and Error , which God is not the Author of , not yet his Spirit , and what Scripture hast thou that sayeth these words , viz. The New-Testament Letter is to be our Rule ? Produce plain Scripture for these words , and it shall end the Controversie ; or otherwise be ashamed of professing the Scriptures thy only Rule , when thou wilt not be ruled by them , but presume to assert what thou canst not prove therein . And yet for all thy high Assertions and Titles put upon the Scriptures , thou hast confessed , That another Foundation can no man lay , than that which is already laid , which is Christ Jesus , 1 Cor. 3.11 . But , hast not thou often essayed to have laid another Foundation for Faith and Assurance , even the Scriptures , or the Letter ? yet knowest not but that they may be corrupted ; what an implicite Faith wouldst thou beget all People into , of that which thou canst give no infallible demonstration of . If thou shouldest thus preach to the Jews , Turks , or Infidels , and tell them the Scrip●ures , or Letter of the New Testament , must be their only Rule for Salvation , as thou sayest it must be for all men to the Worlds end ; and then shouldst tell them that corrupt men ( for ought thou knowest ) have corrupted the Scriptures : What Conviction thinkest thou would this work upon them ? and how would it answer either that Light or Reason that is in them ? and whilest thou seemest not to own the immediate teaching of God , or his Spirit , now for the Rule , but the New Testament Letter , or Scriptures , only ; How camest thou by thy Faith concerning them ? And if thou meanest That the Doctrines contained in the New Testament , are the Rule , and not the Letter abstractively , then how shall a man know these Dostrines , and which do particularly relate to his state and condition ? seeing there are diversities of states written to ? Do not many misapply them , whilest they place the Rule only in the literal Prescriptions , and do not begin in the Spirit , which gave forth the wholsome Doctrines in Scripture ? which Spirit is still sufficient to lead into all Truth , and doth immediately teach the same wholesome Doctrines ; and now , though every wholesome Direction , or Doctrine prescribed , may admit of the term [ A Rule ] as it is rightly received ; which thing I granting , I thereby do no more grant the Scriptures to be the only Rule , than that they are the only Word , because I grant that words of God are recorded in them . For , to say the Scripture-Letter or Writing is the only Rule of Faith for all , is a gross mistake , and excludes the immediate Teachings , Rule , and Law of the Spirit ( which every spiritual mind is led by ) and supposes no true Faith , but what the Letter or Writing is the Ground or Rule of ; whereas it can be but an historical traditional and implicite faith , that is meerly founded upon Tradition and Letter , and not Spirit ; or , th●t that is without the divine and immediate Illumination of the S●irit without , which is no Divine Faith , but mens Knowledge , Faith and Religion , are all but traditional , literal , and lifeless ; for in the true Knowledge of the Scriptures there must be an immediate reflection of Divine Light upon the Understanding from that Infallible Spirit which they were Ministers of , who could truly distinguish between the Ministration of the Spirit , and that of the Letter , which thou hast not done , p. 104. who sayest the Scriptures of the New-Testament are the Spirits New Administration : from whence it follows , that all that can preach those Scriptures , are Ministers of the Spirit or New-Testament ; whereas many both can re●d and preach them litterally , who are yet but Ministers of the Letter , and never knew the immediate and living Administration of the Spirit from which the true Ministers preached , who immediately were commissioned , and whose Gospel came not in word only , but in Spirit and in Power , it having the immediate evidence of the Spirit in it from God , which the Letter or outward writing hath not , for it is directed and given to us traditionally ; though I intend no invalidating of it hereby , but do oppose that spirit and doctrine which sets it out of its place , that calleth the Letter the Only Rule for Salvation , and so leaveth no room for the Immediate Teachings of God's Spirit or Light , as the Rule in these days : Which is the old defign and work of Antichrist , which thou ( J. N. ) and others of thy Brethren are carrying on , to keep people in blindness , in a dark faith under your tr●ditional teachings , who can give no certain demonstration for the ground of your Faith ; and yet thou hast granted the Spirit to be more vertuous and greater than the Letter , p. 112. Enough to confute thy opinion of the Scriptures being the only Rule , for now the Spirit is greater . But then again thou tellest us , The sufficiency of the Saints Rule and Guid● , standeth in the Spirit and Scripture both ; For ( sayest thou ) they cannot be separated in their Nature , Purity , &c. p. 110. At if thou wouldest not freely grant the Spirit 's sufficiency without the Scriptures , or to those that have them not ; but seemest to limit , or tye up the Spirit to the Scripture , as being inseparable in their Nature and Purity , as if the Nature of the Writing were ●he Nature of the Spirit , and equally Pure with it ; whereas the Spirit cannot be corrupted , and its R●le is more infallible than the Scriptures , according to thy own Confession : and also thou hast confessed , That in all Dispensations God never left his People without a word of Direction , either written , or immediately from his own mouth , p. 106 , & 110. So that here it appears , some had immediate Directions from God who had not the letter ; and so may many now for ought thou knowest , for God is not limitted , though thou wouldest limit his Spirit and the Saints to the letter ; as if none were Saints and Believers but who had the Scriptures ( Oh! Ignorance ) and yet thou hast confessed , That the Spirit is of more efficacy and greater than the Letter , p. 110 , & 112. How then is the Letter the only Rule ? And I ask , Is that Word the Scriptures , or Letter , which thou sayest Christians are nursed with the sincere Milk of ? Does Milk flow from Letter , or Spirit ? And is the nourishment of the new-born Babes ( 1 Pet. 2.2 . ) the Letter ? Or , are none true Babes but who have the Letter ? What ignorance , narrowness , and pinching work art thou found in , who hast so tyed up all to and in the Letter ? — as Spirit , only Rule , sincere Milk , Well-spring of Comforts , &c. And yet grants , p. 115. That the Spirit is the Key of Divine Knowledge ; which overthrows thy work about the Scriptures , in thy setting them out of their place ; As also to the Query , p. 117. Whether the Spirit that gave forth the Scriptures , be a sufficient Rule and Guide ? To this thou answerest , viz. Who is so ignorant as to deny the sufficiency of God's Spirit ? If thou doest not deny it , Why doest thou go about to tye up all men ( to the Worlds end ) unto the Scriptures as the only Rule , when now thou doest not deny the Spirits sufficiency as Rule and Guide , nor darest thou assert the Scriptures sufficient without the Spirit , though thou grantest , That the Spirit is sufficient apart from the Scriptures ( which thou callest ●●e Word ) pag. 118. Then the Scriptures are not the only Rule , the Spirit being the Key of divine Knowledge ; the sufficient Rule above the Scriptures , and greater than they . As , Also , in pag. 116. thou confessest , That there are secrets and private discoveries that God makes to the Soul by his blessed Spirit , which are not manifest to any but to the heart that doth enjoy it . These secrets are to those that fear him , &c. Where note , That these secrets and private discoveries , are not manifest to all that have the Scriptures , but to those that fear God. 2d . That they are not made manifest , or revealed by the Letter , or Scripture , outward ; but by the blessed Spirit inward , unto the heart and soul that feareth God , or hath Communion with him in his own Light , Life , and Spirit , which is greater and above the Letter . Again , A further Confutation to thy self , appeareth pag. 108. where thou grantest in the best sense , That the Spirit is the Rule in its own Administration . To which I say , This still confutes thy work , for that Administration is immediately and inwardly received from the Spirit , which in the best sense is the Rule ; and this Spirit being the greatest , all wholesome Doctrines , Teachings and Directions are contained , and summed up in it ; and so the Scriptures of Truth are not hereby made void ( though not the only Rule ) but fulfilled in them who walk after the Spirit or Rule of the New Creature ; for , if you walk in the Spirit , then are you not under the Law ; and they begun well , who begun in the Spirit . But whereas thou turnest ●ound again , tying up the Spirits Rule to this , viz. Doctrine and Teaching delivered in words also written in Scriptum est ( sayest thou ) [ As also , that the word Regeneration signifies twice born ; to wit , both after the flesh , and from a state of sin ; whereas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to regenerate , is to beget again , not after the flesh . ] Here Thy Divinity and Scholarship may both go together , for where the Rule of the Spirit thou limittest to the Writing , how consists this with the Spirits sufficiency to them that have not the Scripture , or to its sufficiency apart or alone ? But 't is no strange thing for thee , and such , to be found in such manifest self Contradictions . — However thou wouldst have us take notice that thou art both a Divine and a Scholar . And thy saying , That Christ cannot be a Rule for any man in his Personal being , p. 94. What makes this for thy purpose ? May it not be here implyed , that he hath a spiritual being ? and that he can be , and is a Rule in it to his People , as He is their Way to walk in ? And , where hast thou these words , Personal being , in thy Rule ? Is the Essence or Being of the Son of God , Personal ? Was not his Being Divine , before his Incarnation or Appearance in Person ? But thou appearest as ignorant , both what Essence ( or Being ) is , and what Person is , which are different . Again , Thou appearest as grosly mistaking the state of the Controversie , where thou sayest , viz. What if my Spirit lead me to Mahomets Rule ? Or if my Spirit perswade me to believe the Popes mouth to be infallible ? &c. Now it is not thy Spirit that may thus egregiously mislead thee , that we are pleading for the Rule of , but it is the infallible Spirit of Truth which gave forth the Scriptures ; neither is thy Assertions concerning the Scriptures , any valid Plea or Argument to convince either Turks or Papists , who are both out of the Truth , and the Spirit of it ; and neither of them owning the Scriptures as we have them ; and never like to be Converted by such shallow Contenders , and impertinent Preachers as thou art . And as for the Law and the Testimony thou speakest of , pag. 125. they are yet unknown to thee ; for the Law is Light , and the Testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophesie , Prov. 6.23 . Rev. 19.10 . which were before the Scriptures . And , How are Spirits to be tryed , as John exhorted , 1 Joh. 4.12 . To this thou sayest , The holy Touchstone by which they are to be tryed , is that golden Rule by which the noble Bereans tried the Doctrine of Paul , even the Scriptures , to know by what Spirit he spake . And then thou addest , By this we shall know the Spirit of Truth from the spirit of Error , and not to prove a Spirit by a Spirit within . — From whence thou observest , That that Spirit which will not be tried by the Scriptures , is the Spirit of Antichrist , p. 125. Answ. What gross Ignorance , Error , and perverting the Scriptures hast thou herein shewed thy self guilty of ! For first , Where provest thou in all the Rule ( thou pretendest ) That the Scriptures are the Touchstone and golden Rule to try the Spirits by ? Produce us plain Scripture for this thy Doctrine , or else confess thy Error . 2dly . The tryal of Spirits is more mysteri●us than meerly the trying of Doctrines , by comparing them with Scriptures ; for many false Spirits bring Scripture , who are not discerned to be such without the Spirit of God , which searcheth all things . 3dly . John did not say , That the Scriptures were the Touchstone , by which they were to try the Spirits , whether they were of God ; But he saith plainly , These things have I written unto you , concerning them that seduce you ; but the Anointing , which you have received of Him , abideth in you , and ye need not that any man teach you , but as the same Anointing teacheth you of all things , &c. 1 Joh. 2.20 , 26 , 27. Now then , the tryal of Spirits being ●uch a weighty thing , which they were concerned in ; this Unction in them was the Touchstone , and that is the Spirit of Antichrist that opposeth this . 4thly . The Scripture doth not say , That the Bereans tried Pauls Spirit by the Scriptures , but that they received the Word with all readiness of mind , ( mark that ) and searched the Scriptures daily whether those things were so , Acts 17. It is not said , They searched them to try Pauls Spirit by them ; for their receiving the Word with all readiness of mind , implyes some good belief they had of the Spirit in Paul by which he preached ; And when they had received the Word , they daily searched the Scriptures ( not with prejudice against the true Ministers , or Light within , as many of you do ) [ but simply ] to see whether those things were so : Now this kind of searching them we own ; the Word being received within , which gives the understanding of the Scriptures . And as for thy scoffing at the word Pure Seed , calling it , New-coyned without Book , &c. pag. 97. And thy saying , Which Seed we vainly say is Christ begotten in us , &c. p. 98. Thou hast scofft herein without any ground , and thereby discovered thy own folly ; For , Is not the Incorruptible Seed a pure Seed ? and doth not the Apostle call the Seed Christ ? Gal. 3.16 . And is not Christ in the true Believer where the Body is dead because of sin ? But thou that so nicely carps at words , as pure Seed , which is Christ within , as being without Book ; what Scripture or Book thereof hast thou for thy calling the Scriptures the only Rule for Salvation for all men ▪ to the Worlds end , and no other ; the Touchstone , the golden Rule , to try or know the Spirit of Truth from the Spirit of Error , the ground of Faith , &c. Produce plain Scripture for these words , or else confess thy Error , who so ex●ctly pretendest the Scripture thy Rule , how dost thou square thy work by it ? & what Rule canst thou produce for us to believe thou speakest truth , when thou givest those Characters of the Scriptures , which are not to be produced in them ? And was not the end of Paul's labouring with the Jews , to turn them from Darkness to the Light within ? which thou contemptuously callst a pretended Spirit , p. 127. Was his perswading them to believe in Christ , in opposition to his Light within ? surely no : but all in order to turn them to his Spirit , or Light within . But thou hast confessed , his perswading them , was concerning the Kingdom of God , to teach them to believe on the Name of Jesus , and direct them to the Kingdom of God : see how manifestly thou art here Contradicted by thy own words ; for , was not the Kingdom of God within ? Luke 17.21 . And the Name of Jesus , and its Power thou seest not , who hast vilified His Light within ; and the Scriptures thou citest are against thee , as that of Rom. 9 , 10 , 11 , Chap. for , both the Righteousness , the Word of Faith , and Grace , were inward and spiritual . Again , To prove that the Scriptures make manifest the Righteousness of God , thou citest Rom. 1.17 . which is thy gross abuse of that Scripture ; for it saith , that I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ , for it is the Power of God unto Salvation ; and therein is his Righteousness revealed from Faith to Faith , &c. It is not said , the Scriptures are the Power of God ; for the Power of God , or Gospel , was preached to Abraham before the Scriptures were written . And to thy saying , Faith hath a holy End , which it leadeth to , even the Salvation of Souls , not now in man , but at the last day , when our bodies shall be raised out of the dust , p. 123. And where provest thou this Doctrine ? Is not the Soul in man ? And is not its Salvation deliverance and safety from sin , wrought within by the Power and Arm of God ? How dost thou essay to frustrate the End of the true Faith , which is Salvation , whilst thou sayest , It leads to the Salvation of Souls , not now in man ; but at the last day , when our bodies shall be raised out of the dust ? And when thinkest thou shall that be ? Must all the S●ints have their Hope , Expectation , and Faith for Salvation of their Souls unanswered till then ? what is become of their Souls all this while , since their decease , if they have not received the End of their Faith , to wit , Salvation in them ? Surely , thou art yet in the dust , and death and da●kness have power over thy mind or else thou wouldst never shew thy self such an ignorant Papist as here thou hast done ; for thou hast ( though at unawares ) run thy self into rank Popery , putting Salvation of Souls so far off , till thou knowest not when , according to thy earthly and carnal conceits , which thou wouldest have us believe for gracious Truths , which thou sayest , Quakerism doth not own , unless in a Mystery , to deceive , But this is not thy first slanderous Conclusion against the Quakers , who only oppose the graceless Errors and Absurdities of thee , and such blind insolent Opposers , who oppose the Light within , and the power of Godliness , as thou ( J. N. ) hast manifestly done . And now J. N. here follows a few of thy gross Lyes and slanderous Accusations laid down and implyed against us , which I return back upon thy own head . 1. THat no●hing that is of man , shall at the last be saved , but only the Pure Seed . This is a gross abuse ; for the Redemption , Re●toration , and Salvation of the whole man , we own . 2. False it is , That our Family Preacheth and Printeth down the Scriptures , and the Commands of Christ , as Carnal &c. 3. False it is , That the Scripture is not to be owned by Saints . 4. False it is , That they bid People turn to a feigned and pretended Light , or Spirit within . 5. False it is , That our Family doth use the Scripture but as a Cloak , to carry on a design of darkness , when we own the Scripture in its proper place . 6. False it is , That the proper place of Scripture , is but to stand by us as a Stalking-Horse . 7. A malitious slander it is , To charge us as crafty Fowlers , with shooting the simple Soul through by deceitful darts . 8. False it is , That we cast behind our backs , all the Order and Discipline of the Primitive Churches of our Lord and Master . For the Worship in Spirit , and the Living Way , which Ch●ist set up and Consecrated , we Testifie to , and for . 9. We do not make use of either God's Word or Scriptures in hypocrisie ; as most slanderously is implyed against us . 10. And that of b●inging a mist and fog upon the Scripture , out of the bottomless Pit , and bringing it to such a low rate by Evasions and Contradictions . These things ( J. N. ) thou , and such peevish sl●nderers , are guilty of ( and not we ) ; as thy work and self-Contradictions sufficiently have discovered . 11. A gross and manifest slander it is , That we will not own the Man Christ to be risen . 12. False it is , That we own not a Rising ( or Resurrection of the the Dead , &c. ) at the last ●ay , according to the Scrip●ures . Though not according to the unscriptural conceits of some busie Intrude●s or Fools , who now ( as formerly ) are contending and asking , How are the Dead raised , and with w●●t body do they come ? 1 Cor. 15.35 , 36 , 37. 13. And as to these dreadful Opinions and Delusions of not owning an Eternal Life , &c. of drawing all the glory , after this life , into a present enjoyment ; and in this life to make an end of all our happiness , &c. These are none of our Opinions , nor ever owned as Principles among us , but judged as Atheistical ; and therefore are most injuriously and falsly drawn ( or inferred ) against us . But I have heard of some of the Baptists that have held the Mortallity of the Soul , that it dyes with the body , &c. 14. Also a false Inference it is against us , That the Grave will be the farthest Journey that man shall go towards Eternal Life . For as touching the Righteous or Ransomed of the Lord , who believe in his Light within , they own and witness to an Immortal state , and receive Power in Him , who is the Resurrection and the Life , over Death , Hell , and the Grave : And as we do own a Resurrection both of the just and unjust , according to the Scriptures , and that each shall have rewards according to their works ; so neither Death , nor Hell , nor Grave , nor Earth , nor Sea , shall detain or keep back the wicked from their just rewards and punishments due for their Iniquity , Rebellion , and Transgressions , who have rejected the Light within , and hated to be Reformed : For there is a Lake of perpetual torment for the Devil and wicked men ; for the Beast and false Prophet ( that War against the Lamb [ the Light ] and his followers ) for such as receive his Mark , and such as are not found written in the Book of Life , Rev. 19.20 . & 20.10 . to the end . Yea , and further it is said , That the Fearful , and Unbelieving , and the Abominable , and Murderers , and Whoremongers , and Sorcerers , and Idolaters , and all Lyers , shall h●ve their part in the Lake , which burneth with Fire and Brimstone , which is the second Death , Rev. 21.8 . Wherefore J. N. and thy Brethren , take heed how you go on in your Envy , Lyes , and Slanders against an innocent Peop●e ; but Repent , repent , of your wickedness therein , which hitherto divers of you have often appeared in , in ●our malicious Spirits : But the Lord will sweep away your Refuge of Lyes , and Slanders ; and he knoweth how to deliver the Godly out of temptations , and to reserve the Unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished , 2 Pet. 2.9 . And whereas thou J. N. chargest us with dreadful Delusion , as bringing all to an invisible state , — all within man ; and that there is no visible God , no visible Christ , &c. p. 133. Answ. Dreadful Delusion is without any proof against us , — it s thy own , who opposest the invisible state , and inward enjoyment of God , who is invisible ; and that which may be known of God is manifest wi●hin : And what Rule in Scripture hast thou for these words [ visible God , visible Christ , &c. ] Here thou hast not squared thy Work by the Rule thou pretendest ; for , is not Christ the Image of the Invisible God , Col. 1.15 . — And did not Moses by Faith see him that is Invisible , when he had respect unto the recompence of Reward , Heb. 11. And is not that recompence of reward ( viz. Eternal Life , Peace , and Felicity ) inwardly and spi●itually received , by those that patiently now suffer for Christ ; whose sufferings of the present time , are not to be compared unto the Glory that shall be revealed in them , Rom. 8.18 . But thou that art so carnally imagining , and thus shutting out the weighty things of Salvation out of man , and like the old Heretic●l Egyptian Monks , ( the Anthropomorphites , and late Muggletonians ) art telling of a visible God , and Christ remote , not in any ; and despising the Light within as but feigned : What could we expect better from ●hee than such darkness , ignorance , and confusion , as hath appeared in this thy malicious , irrational Book against the Light within ; and the Children , or Family of Light , called Quakers , against neither of whom hast thou urged any reason or validity , so as to disaffect any that are unprejudiced against us , but the more against thy self and them that will own thee . — Wherefore my advice and caution to all that are simply-minded , who read this , that they seriously minde and follow the Light and Unction from the Holy-One within , that thereby their minds may be kept out of prejudice and enmity , and over and out of the perverse wayes of imaginary conceited , dark and prejudiced spirits , who pervert the Scriptures , and deride at the Light within , and abuse the Children of it , as thou hast done : But the Truth is set over thy head , and all those of thy Fraternity , whose spirits the Devil hath inveterately set against that , which you shall one day know will be too strong and mighty for you . Now unto the King Eternal , Immortal , Invisible , the only wise God , be Honour and Glory for ever and ever , Amen . 1 Tim. 1.17 . The Baptist and Presbyter , &c. conjunct against us , to their own Disjunction and Confusion . OR , A Relation of some Heads of Two Discourses ( in London ) ; the first whereof was the 28 th of the 10 th Month ( 69. ) at which Thomas Danson ( formerly Priest of Sandwich in Kent ) and William Kiffin Baptist [ with the Assistance of Ald. Hayes ] joyned against us . THe Question disputed on both times was , Whether the Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith , yea or nay ? VVhich was affirmed by them , but denyed by us ▪ Now let the impartial Readers note how confused and contradictory they were in the management of their Affirmation : As first , when we had excepted against their Affirmation , the particle Only being exclusive of any higher Rule ; yea , even of the Spirit of Truth it self , and importing the Scriptures as the chief , or sole , singular , and alone Rule of Faith , excluding all other . Now when any of these our Opposers did at any time include the Spirit , or the divine illumination thereof in the understanding ( when they had asserted the Scriptures to be the only Rule ) this Contradistion they divers times appeared in . And T. D. when he could not stand by the Assertion in the terms proposed , instead of the word Scriptures , he would have it , The Doctrines contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be the only Rule of Faith : which he also could not prove according to his general Assertion therein ; and his disserting the terms of the Question , to wit , of the Scriptures being the only Rule , he rendred no sufficient Reason for it : for the Doctrines as contained therein , have still relation to the Scriptures , which are of divers kinds ; as those of the Law , for the Circumcision and other Shadows ; and those of the New Testament , forbidding them . But yet , though one while the Scriptures , and another while the Doctrines contained in them , were asserted to be the only Rule of Faith ; in Contradiction to this , he would assent to the guidance of the Spirit of God , and would include the Holy Ghost in the comfort of the Scriptures , and confess at length , That the Scriptures , without divine illumination , are but the foundation of an historical Faith , and not a saving Faith ; and that a man may believe the historical part , and not be saved ; and that the divine illumination of the Spirit , is the Foundation and Rule of saving Faith. Observ. Mark , Here is a Foundation , or Rule of the Spirit assented to above the Scriptures : If the divine illumination of the Spirit , be the Rule of the Understanding , the Rule for Conviction , and consequently the Rule of Faith ; then the Scriptures are not the only Rule . And T. D. granted , That the Scriptures are not the Rule of Conviction for those that denied their divine Authority , it being but a begging the Question , to argue from Scripture for the Conviction of such , &c. Therefore it follows , that the inlightning of the holy Spirit , which is able to convict Gain-saye●s , is a Rule above the Scriptures , which therefore are not the only Rule . But W. Kiffin ( to prove their first Assertion , so much confuted by T. D. himself ) told us , That the Director and Rule to Faith and Salvation , were two distinct things ; as the Way to Bristol , and my Director into the Way ; and that the Scriptures are the only Rule and Way in which we are to walk , and the Spirit of God is the Guide and Director , &c. Answ. To th●s he was Answered , That Christ is both the Leader and Director into the way of God , and the Way also ; and that we are to walk in the Spirit : and therefore his asserting that the Director is not the Way , in this Instance against the Spirit being the Rule , is all one as to say , Christ cannot be the Way , because he is the Guide ; which is contrary to his own Testimony . And while W.K. did state the Way and Rule as the same , or equivolent , he m●nifestly ran to his own confutation ; Christ Jesus and his Light being the Author of Faith , and only Way to Salvation . As to the Question [ If the Scriptcres come where men question them , or their Relation of those Miracles or Works of God's Power , &c. which T.D. argued as ground or matter of Conviction , &c. ] How shall such be Convicted by that Relation which they question , without the Living Evidence of the Spirit ? T. D. replied , Would you question whether there were such a man as King Henry the Eight ? &c. Answ. This is not an Answer to the only Rule of Faith , and proves no farther than a traditional Faith ; and by this , it appears what is the nature of these mens Faith , and how weak ; for they did not know that there was a King Henry the Eight by divine illumination ; and sure the Spirit and Power that gave forth the Scriptures , hath an influence upon the understandings , and opens the Holy Scriptures where it is submitted to within . His Instance of King Henry the Eight , was a very mean and pitiful one in this case , to answer the Ground and Rule of true and living Faith , which is the Gift of God , and whereof Christ is the Author . Farther , Mark what corrupt Doctrines and Extravagancies the said T.D. runs into against the universal extent of the Spirit of God , and sufficiency of his Light , having granted or supposed many places in the World where there is neither Bible nor Minister to Preach ; he proceeded as followeth . T. D. I say , that God ordinarily doth not by his Spirit immediately reveal the Doctrines contained in the Scriptures ( meaning without them ) His Spirit doth not go into the farthest parts of India , where the Scriptures are not ; the Spirit of God doth not go into the remotest parts of the World : We suppose there are some plac●s where there is neither Bible nor Minister ; I do not understand any ground that the Spirit in those places doth immediately reveal those things , &c. p. 9. Answ. 1. See if this be not a limitation put upon the Spirit of God , and a denial of its alone sufficiency to teach or reveal all Truth without the Scriptures ; And how this man supposes that there are remote places where the Spirit doth not come , which is contrary to plain Scripture : Whither shall a man go from the Spirit , or flee from the presence of God ? see Psal. 139.7 , 8 , 9 , 10. for his Presence fills Heaven and Earth . 2dly . Supposing that in some places they have neither the Scriptures , nor their outward Preaching ; it were a sad sentence to conclude them all in a state of Damnation for want thereof ; and to conclude , that therefore God doth not afford them of his Spirit or Light , to be an inward Rule of their Faith without the Scriptures : What cruelty doth this charge upon God against his Creatures ? And what a narrow limitation doth this put upon his Spirit , to allow him his path but only where the Scriptures are ? Or Presbyterian or Independant Teachers , or such-like , go ? What a pitiful narrow Spirit and Principle is this among them ? And had not those Gentiles ( spoken of Rom. 2. ) those things contained in the Law , written in their hearts , when they had not the Law or Scriptures outwardly ? And were they not either accused or excused before God by his Law written in their hearts ? T.D. They not walking up to the Light they had , was the cause of their Codemnation , and they were left without excuse . T. D's [ Contradiction ] — But it was not sufficient to lead them to Life or Salvation , — it was a Natural Light , &c. Answ. Then from this it follows , That all was a case whether they walked up to the Light they had or not , they were like to be Condemned , do what they could ( a sad Doctrine , charging God with no less than Cruelty and Injustice ) ; then for what Reason was the Light given to them ? and what was God's End therein , if it was insufficient ? ●ow should they be left without excuse ? And for what end were they brought into the world , if a capacity of Salvation was not afforded them ? As to his calling it a natural Light , what rule hath he in Scripture for so calling it ? For the Law in their hearts was spiritual ; and it 's said , When they do by Nature , it is not said , By a Natural Light ; and what Nature was it , by which they obeyed the Law of God in the heart ? Surely it was not a Nature repugnant to the Law. And when I demanded of these men , to produce us that Scripture that saith , The Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith , and it shall end the Controversie . Ald. H. Answ. I will , in the last of the Revelations , If any man shall add to this Rule , &c. Obs. Here he was mistaken , for it is not said , this Rule , but these things , &c. the words of the Book , &c. see Revelations 22.18 , 19. T. D's Arg. That which the Scriptures direct to as the Rule of Faith , that is to be the only Rule : But the Scriptures direct to themselves . Ergo. Answ. The first part I own ; that which the Scriptures direct to is the Rule , and that is the Light within ; the Spirit or Unction from the Holy One , 1 Joh. 2. that gave them forth ; therefore I deny that the Scriptures direct to themselves as the only Rule . T. D. That the Scripture directs to its self as the only Rule ( and no other ) I prove from Joh. 5.39 . Search the Scriptures , &c. Rep. Christ did not say the Scriptures were the only Rule , but rather reproved these unbelievers ( whom these men resemble ) in these words viz. In them ( to wit the Scriptures ) ye think to have Eternal Life ; and ye will not come to Me , that ye might have Life , vers . 40. T. D. The more sure word of Prophesie , 2 Pet. 1.19 . was the Scriptures , &c. Rep. Here he hath confounded and perverted the Scriptures , as if the word of Prophesie , and the Writings , and Prophesies were all one ; and as if it were to be read , You have more sure Scriptures of the Prophets ; whereas they were not more sure than the Scriptures of the Apostles ; and the word of the Prophesie ( or Holy Ghost that moved in the Prophets to speak or write Scripture ) was before the Prophesies of it ( or the Scriptures ) were written ; the Word came to the Prophets before they Prophesied , it was in their hearts , and the same Word now appears in many as a Light shining in a dark place , whereunto ye shall do well to take heed until the day dawn , and the Day-star arise in your hearts , 2 Pet. 1.19 . Obs. So this Light within was in all Ages ( and still is ) the most absolute , perfect , and universal Rule to all the Righteous , who believed in the Light , and were the Children of the Day , where God hath appointed the Great Light of Himself , to Rule His People in Faith and Practise . At the Second Discourse which was the 20th of the 11th Month , 1669. Will. Kiffin and his Brother Jeremiah Ives , with some others appeared against us : Some of their Contradictions follow . W.K. THe Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith ( from 2 Tim. 3.15 , 16. ) the Spirit considered as a Rule , is absolutely excluded , but as a Director , as my Way and my Guide are distinct , &c. ( as before . ) Obs. First , This Scripture cited by him , proveth not his Assertion ; to wit , That the Scriptures are the only Rule . Secondly , His so absolute excluding the Spirits Rule is contrary to this Scripture , which saith , All Scripture given by inspiration of God , &c. ( the particle is being added . ) Here the Inspiration of God is owned to give Scripture ; as also it 's the Man of God that knows the use thereof , who doth not exclude Divine Inspiration , or the Holy Spirit from being his Guide , Rule , and Way , for he walks in the Spirit : So that if Rule and Way be one and the same , as here they are rendered , that which is the only Way to Life and Salvation , must needs be the only Rule ; and surely neither Christ , nor his Light , or holy Spirit within , must be excluded from being this Way in which we are to walk . And now mark how Jer. Ives ( coming into the Meeting , after his Brother W. K. had thus absolutely excluded the Spirit ) did positively contradict him . Jer. Ives . Our saying the Scriptures are the only Rule , doth not exclude the Spirit , or the Spirit 's Illumination , the Scrip●ures including the Spirit , are the only Rule , &c. that is our meaning . Obs. See how manifestly they have contradicted one another ; here the one wholly excluding the Spirit as a Rule , and the other including it : But this Jer. Ives was not aware of his Brothers having excluded the Spirit before he came in ; upon which we urging them to confess their Error and Contradiction : Jer. Ives endeavoured to salve up the business as well as he could , ( saying , We are reconciled ) And in order thereto he proceeded thus , viz. J. I. Our saying the Scriptures are the only Rule , does not ex●●●●e every thing else ( or the Spirits Illumination ) from being a Rule ; any more than to say , God Only hath Immortality , doth exclude all else from having Immortality , &c. Obs. Still he could not hide himself from contradicting his Brother W.K. and the terms of their own Question ; For if the Spirit 's Illumination be included ( as in Rule ) then to say , the Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith , is not true ; and wholly to exclude the Spirit as a Rule , is erroneous : And to instance in this case , That God only hath Immortality , which is dwelling in the Light , 1 Tim. 6.16 . Was this a fit comparison for their Assertion of the Scriptures being the only Rule ? For , hath not God Immortality above and before all others ? And hath he not it only dwelling in the Light ? And have any it out of him , or out of his Light ? But hath he it not only as more eminently and above all others ? As he is the only Wise God , the only Potentate , King of Kings , and Lord of Lords , 1 Tim. 6.15 . where [ Only ] is both used in a most eminent sense , and excluding all others from that eminence . And if in this sense ( according to Jer. Ives his Instance ) the Scriptures be taken as the most eminent Rule , before and above all other Rule ; what is this but to set the Scriptures above the Spirit that gave them forth ? and above all Divine Illuminations ? ( although without it the Scriptures cannot be understood ) which is as much as to set them above God and Christ. And yet Jer. Ives , in Contradiction to their own Assertion , granted , That they did not intend that none have Faith but they that have the Scriptures ( some may have Faith who have them not , &c. ) It follows therefore , that that [ some ] have the Rule of Faith without the Scriptures . See what a deadly blow he hath given to his ( and their ) own Cause ? Jer. Ives . God doth not require any thing to be believed ( as a Point of Faith ) or to be practised as a Duty , for which there is not a Rule laid down in the Scriptures ; and that there is not any sin committed but what is there mentioned ; there is no sin that I commit , but I may correct it by the Scriptures , &c. Obs. See how both these passages do egregiously vary from the state of the Question , and their general Assertion before ; Of the Scriptures being the only Rule of Faith. For a Rule in the Scriptures , and they to be the only Rule , are much different . And however , if it were granted ( which 't is not ) That God doth not require any thing to be believed , &c. or practised as duty , for which there is not a Rule laid down ( which imports a particular Rule or measure specified for every particular point or practice , or else not to be believed nor practised ) then it follows , That if there be not a particular Rule in Scripture to prove , That the Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith , nor which so saith of them ; We are not bound to believe these men's Assertion therein as any Point of Faith , for God doth not require us to believe it , however they contend for it , and would impose it upon our Faith. But further , 1. If by a Rule laid down , it be intended that there is a particular Rule , Command or Precept specified , exactly to measure every particular duty or thing to be believed or practised by all Christians ( as there are many express Commands and Precepts expressing the particular duty , and forbidding the offence ; ) this is not so expressed under a general Command ( nor yet proved ) as Jer. Ives endeavoured ; as when I put the Q●estion , viz. Whether God doth not ( or may not ) by his immediate Power , in these dayes , raise up and Commissionate Prophets to declare peculiar Messages to particular Places , People , or Governments , yea or nay ? To this Jer. Ives granted , That God might ( for any thing he knew ) do so : But suppose there may be Prophets now , sent with immediate Commission to a particular Place , as Rome , &c. ( said he ) The Scripture hath a Rule in it , that such Prophets ought to obey their Master ; and that the Scripture commands to hear Christ in all things , and not to quench the Spirit nor despise Prophesie , &c. ( Thus far Jer. Ives . ) — But while he cannot prove that all those things are particularly prescribed in Scripture , which they are to hear and learn of Christ , and which are to be prophesied : but hath granted the contrary ( to wit ) That there may be immediate Commissions and peculiar Messages from God to particular Places , &c. ( suppose Rome , or London ) which are not particularly specified in Scripture ( however Christ is to be heard in all things , and his Spirit not to be quenched ) — Therefore it follows , that the Scriptures are neither the Rule of those Prophets Faith , either for such their Commission or peculiar Messages , for they have neither from the Scriptures , but immediately from God : ( And therefore if they should go to question their Commission , and try such their Messages by the Scriptures , and not find them there , this would argue unbelief , and cause disobedience ) whereas their particular Commissions and Messages , are evidenced to them by the Spirit and Power of God ( whether it be by Vision or Revelation ) which is the immediate Object , Rule , and Foundation of their Faith therein . 2dly , And in our dayes there hath been such Prophets raised up , both to this Nation , and City of London ; witness Humphry Smith's Vision of Fire to London ; Jo. Rance his Prophecy in Meeter ( before the Contagion ) of the great Wo and debacement of London ; T. Ibbot's Vision of the Fire ; which he came to proclaim , and went through the Streets as a sign thereof ( and of the great Distraction upon it ) the day before it broke forth : ( But W.K. his surmise , or may be that these might have a hand in it , was malitious and wicked , as divers present took notice . ) Yea , many more have truly foretold of the Judgments and Calamities of this Nation and City ; and it would be voluminous to repeat what hath been truly foretold by divers of the Servants of the Lord , concerning O. C. and those persecuting Professors that persecuted us in his Name ( and what 's yet to come upon the Persecutors who follow their steps ) and of the Confusions that his Priests , and those persecutors of the Innocent , would fall into ( as also the temporizing of many of them ) which is manifest both upon many of the Presbyterians , Independants , and Baptists at this day ; whose insatiable enmity is still continued against us , though they be confounded among themselves ; and their horns broken , that they cannot push as formerly . 3dly , As the Scriptures are not the Rule of Faith , nor is there a particular Rule therein for every individual motion or action ; so are they not the sole Rule of discovery of sin and evil in men particularly ( though they witness against all sin . ) — Nor are they the immediate , or original Obligation upon the Conscience to Righteousness or Duty in the sight of God ; for it is the Light of Christ within ( that immediately opens an inward eye ) that discovers to men their particular sins and guilt ; and that immediately obligeth to Righteousness ( and did so oblige man in the beginning before it was so written in letters ) because of God , who both telleth unto man his thoughts , and what he ought to do as his duty ; And , whatsoever makes manifest is Light ; all things that are reproved , are made manifest by the Light , yea , by that Lig●t which Christ giveth , Eph. 5.13 , 14. Howbeit , every one that doth evil , hateth the Light ; neither cometh to the Light lest his deeds should be reproved : but he that doth truth , cometh to the Light that his deeds may be made manifest , that they are wrought in God , Joh. 3.19 , 20 , 21. So that it 's evident , the Light is that Rule that tryes and manifests all things ; and this was before the Scriptures , and is where they are not . Many over-look ( and will not see ) their own evils , though they read those very Scriptures that testifie against them : but if they turn to the Light of Christ within , it will make them manifest , and bring them under a sense of their own guilt therein , that they may repent and cease from sin , and so receive remission . 4thly , And now , as for this great Point or Article of our present Opposers Faith ( viz. That the Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith , — the Spirit being absolutely excluded as a Rule by W. K. ) It is to be noted , that since Jer. Ives , in a Letter to me saith , viz. Though I might own this Question in their sense , yet I never owned it in their words , &c. Whereby the Reader may see , That Jer. Ives upon a more deliberate Consideration , hath disserted his Brethrens Cause ; he perceiving ( as it seems ) that they cannot maintain the Scriptures to be the only Rule . But 1st . where he saith , He might own it in their sense ; this is not true ; For his sense of owning it , was That he did not exclude ( but included ) the Spirit : But his Brother Kiffin's sense was absolutely to exclude the Spirit as a Rule ; so their senses herein absolutely opposed each other . 2dly , His saying , He never owned it in their words ; is as false ( however he now evades or disowns it ) for many Persons of Credit that were present , can testifie ( as also the Relation of the Discourse , taken by an expert Short-writer ) that he did own the Question ( whether the Scriptures are the only Rule ) in these their terms for some time , however now he would acquit himself of it ; and thereby has failed his Brethren , and broke the neck of their Cause . These few Questions are for W. Kiffin , and the rest , who own him in his Principle . Quest. 1. BY what Rule would you have us believe you , when you say the Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith and Practice , and absolutely exclude the Spirit as a Rule ? 2. Whether any can truly know and believe the Scriptures , without having their understandings divinely enlightned by the Spirit that gave them forth , yea or nay ? 3. Is not the true beginning of Believers , in that Spirit ? In order to Righteousness , Life , and Salvation ? 4. Do you own the immediate Teaching of the Spirit , or divine Revelation to be attainable in these dayes ? Or , 5. Can any come truly to know the true God , or Jesus Christ , without immediate Revelation ? 6. What is the key of true knowledge ? 7. What was the Rule of Abel , Enoch , Abraham , Moses , &c. their Faith before the Scriptures were written ? 8. Do you think the Spirit is to be received in the Scriptures ? Or , that the Letter and the Spirit are inseparable , yea or nay ? 9. What Rule would you make use of , for the Conviction of those that either oppose the Divine Authority ( supposed ) or Translation of the Scriptures , seeing such cannot be Convicted by the Scriptures themselves ? 10. 〈…〉 Meas●re and ●●le whereunto the tr●e Mini●●ers and belie●ing Ge●●iles had attained , ●hich they were to walk by , mentioned , 2 Cor. 10 , 13 , 15. Phil. 3.16 . Gal. 6.16 . was that Rule the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament , or Bible , yea or nay ? Here follows a few Doctrines asserted by one — Wheatly at Lambeth , in a Book directed in Manuscript to one Mr. Cox ( as he calls him ) : this Wheatley seems to be a Brother of these Baptists , by his opposing the Light within , and pleading for their outward Forms , and their Water-Baptism , from the Example of Christ's going down into the Water to be Baptized of John. Wheatley his Doctrine , viz. DO not blame the Devil to exclude the example of the Children of God , if he can by any pretence ; do not blame the Devil to perswade men to trust to the Light within , &c. pag. 4 , 5. Answ. However this man seems to be a Friend to the Devil , in that he exhorts not to blame him , he is grosly mistaken in saying , The Devil perswades men to trust to the Light within ; for the Devil , and such his Instruments , perswade men against the Light as much as they can ; for his Kingdom is held up in the dark , and his way is darkness it self , wherein his Followers walk , who will not bring their deeds to the Light , lest it should reprove them : but the Light of Christ in every man , and the sufficiency thereof , and the Scriptures of Truth which testifie to it , we beat witness unto ; and against both the Devil and this Opposer , and against all such as are in the same spirit of dark●●ss and enmity with him and the Devil , who oppose the True Light. And he that saith , The Devil perswades men to trust to the Light within ; he hath highly advanced the Devil , and conferred as much dignity upon him as the Ranters , when they have told us , That the Devil is Gods good Servant , his faithful Servant , &c. This is like his blasphemy who setteth the Devil in the place of God's faithful Servants and Ministers , whose work it was to perswade men to his Light within ; but both the Devil , and Ranters , are enemies to the true Light within . W's Doct. There may be a Light amongst men and not within , for Jesus Christ said to the Pharisees , the Kingdom of God was within them ; when indeed it was but among them , ( saith he ) ; And to prove it , he citeth Luke 17.22 . Answ. See how he hath proved the Light not within , viz. The Kingdom of God was within the Pharisees ; Christ saith , It is within ; but this Man saith , Not within : Shall we believe Christ or him ? But as if he would plainly let us know how he is set to oppose Christ , after he hath told us , That Jesus Christ said , The Kingdom of God was within them ; In Contradiction to Christ , he saith , When indeed it was but among them ; and this to prove the Light not within . It is no marvel this man sets himself to oppose Christ's Followers and Servants for asserting his Light within , when thus he opposeth Christ himself , for saying , That the Kingdom of God is within ; but this man saith it was not within , it was but among them . Now then here is the case and state of the Controversie ; Christ and his Followers do bear witness to the Kingdom of God , and his Light within : But the Devil and his Followers , strive and war against the Light and Kingdom of God within , as much as they can ; the Devil he hath blinded their eyes from seeing the Light : he hath made fools , vassals , and slaves of them to do his drudgery , to shew their enmity , and vomit out their shame and principles of darkness against the Light within . Oh! how hath the Devil deceived such wilful Opposers and Unbelievers ? W's Doct. If God , and Christ , and Holy Spirit be within them , then there is none above them ; Is not this spiritual pride ? &c. Answ. No : it was not spiritual pride in the People of God , and Followers of Christ , to witness God and Christ to dwell in them ; neither did this argue at all that God and Christ were not above them ; for , God is above all , and through all , and in all his own , Eph. 4.6 . And he that dwelleth on High , and inhabiteth Eternity , dwells with such also as are poor in Spirit , and tremble at his Word . Oh! how ignorant are these Opposers of the Scriptures , and of the Power of God ? W's Doct. I do believe , That essentially from Eternity , the Scripture was as really God , as a man's mind is himself , before it is revealed ; so before that Spirit that proceedeth from Father and Son , gave forth the Scriptur● , the Scripture was really God. Can the Quakers shew you , That Christ the Word is not Scripture , &c. pag. 17. Thus far his Assertion . Answ. Let this be kept on Record for his Brethren to peruse , and for all other that reade this to judge of , that the Scripture was really God from eternity , yea , and that essentially ; as much as to say , the Essence of the Scripture is the Essence of God. What say you Baptists and Professors ? do you own this doctrine ? If you do not , then give forth your Testimony against him and it , and correct and stop such N●vices and ignorant men amongst you from medling with Controversies , and from scribling their Confusion and Blasphemies against us : For , do you own that the Scriptures are God ? or , that the Scriptures made all things ? Or , when you carry a Bible in your pocket , do you carry God and his essence there ? Is not this Rantism in the highest , that your Brother hath affirmed ? and doth it not tend to lead into Atheism ? let Truth in all judge . Many of this Opposers Impertinencies , gross Lyes , Slanders and Abuses against us ( called Quakers ) in his Pamphlet I here pass by ; my recital of these few passages of his , being , that the rest of his Brethren may take notice thereof , and be cautioned not to suffer enmity and darkness to lead them to war against the Light and its Children , as too many have done , lest that shame and confusion of face ( instead of Justification and Peace with the Lord ) be their reward . Here followeth a Copy of the Baptists Bill of Excommunication . WEE the Church of Christ , meeting near Bow , of which you Hester Bird were once a Member , Do by these presents , signifie and declare , That you have turned out of the right way of the Lord both in Doctrine , and Practice , viz. Departing from the Foundation , Doctrine of Justification by Grace ; From the Resurrection of this Body ; The Personal coming of the Lord Jesus ; And the Holy Ordinances of Christ , viz. Baptism , Communion of Saints , and the Lords Supper : And you having been by Us , or some of Us , Admonished ; and remaining Incorrigible , WEE do hereby declare , That you are gone out from Us , because you were not of Us ; having rejected the Word of the Lord and Us his People , WEE also do reject you , according to the Sentence of the Lord , exprest by the Apostles in these Scriptures mentioned in the Margent . George Barrett . Benj. Dennis . Edw. Annesley . Rich. Mathyson . Ralph Chapman . Signed in the Name , and by the Appointment of the Church , the 17 th of the 7 th Month , 1669 , Here followeth a Copy of the said Hester Bird ( now Hester Andrews ) her Answer . GEorge Barret , Benjamin Dennis , and the rest concerned ; I do not own you to be the Church of Christ as you call your selves : For the true Church never gave out such a false Bill of Excommunication as you have against Me ; therefore your pretended Authority therein I deny . Whereas you falsly charge me with turning from the Communion of Saints ; I have sensibly known and felt the Communion of Saints , blessed be the Lord , since I have been from amongst you . As to the Personal Reign of Christ , I never owned it when I was amongst you ; but his Spiritual Appearance I am a witness of . Your outward Bread and Wine satisfies not the Soul ; I have had more peace when I did not touch your Shadows , than when I did . As to the Water-Baptism , I never found any thing in it , I was the same when I came out as when I went in ; Blessed be the Lord , I have known one Baptism , the Baptism of Christ , viz. being Baptized with the Holy Ghost and with Fire ; for he will throughly purge his Floor . As to departing from the Foundation , Doctrine of Justification by Grace , as you falsly and slanderously charge me ; I know the Foundation of God standeth sure , and another Foundation can no man lay than that is already laid , which is Christ in us , which is the Hope of Glory , by whose Grace I am Justified freely : and this I find to be the Doctrine of Christ , and his Ministers , which I own . A Word from the Lord unto you , That you would come out from among your dark Customs of this World , and come to the Appearance of Christ in you , As to your Excommunication , it 's known I came from you some years ago ; take heed your Censure falls not on your own heads : but it shews of what spirit you are . Your charge of departing from the Resurrection of this Body , as you state it ; It s neither truth nor sense , nor have you told me your meaning : For , what Resurrection and Body have I come to , that I have departed from : Howbeit the Resurrection I believe according to the Testimony of Christ and his Ministers ; see Joh. 11.25 . 1 Cor. 15.42 . to the end : And Christ's Answer to the Saduces , Mat. 22.29 , 30. H. A. A few brief Observations on the Scriptures in the Margent of the Baptists Bill ( or rather Bull ) against the said Hester Bird , alias Andrews ; which they have perverted and misapplyed : As , FIrst , That of Jer. 8.8 , 9. was against the Rebellious Jews , who were backslidden , and knew not the Judgment of the Lord , and had rejected his Word , who were all given to Covetousness , and to deal falsly , from the People to the Priest , vers . 7 , 10. None of which Evils have these angry Baptists proved against this Person whom they have Rejected , or Excommunicated ; for she did first reject them , as she was perswaded she had good reason for ; and that therein she did not reject the Word of the Lord , but such as have rejected it , whom she denyes to be either Called by Christ to the Ministry , or to be of his Church . Secondly , That , 1 Joh. 2.19 . was against those Antichrists who went out from the true Apostles , and Church : where note , these Baptists have neither proved their Call to the Ministry , nor themselves to be either true Apostles , or a true Church ; nor yet Convicted this Woman to be such an one mentioned 1 Joh. 2.18 , 19. for she is now directed to ( and owneth ) the Vnction within from the Holy One , which preserves out of Antichrist's Delusions , Lyes and Deceits , &c. which if she continues in , and obey to the end , she shall continue in the Son , and in the Father , and not deny Jes●● Christ , or the Father , as the Antichrists did , vers . 22 , 23. But this Anointing within , these Baptists have never turned People unto , that they might follow and obey it in all things ; for they impose upon People their own Practises , without the immediate guidance of the Spirit : And therefore this Woman hath cause for ever to bless the Lord th●● she turned from them , if she continue in this Anointing within ; which is true . Thirdly , As to that , 2 Tim. 2.17 . & 1 Tim. 1.20 . These concerned such as did blaspheme , and used profane and vain bablings ; of whom was Alexander , and also Hymeneus and Philetus , who said , That the Resurrection was past already , and overthrew the Faith of some : But no such thing as vain Bablings , Blasphemy , or saying , That the Resurrection is past already , have these Baptists proved against this Person whom they have Excommunicated : And therefore it is , 1st . A great sin in them thus to misaply the Scriptures against such as they were never intended . And , 2dly , A great presumption in them , to assume an Authority from the Apostles words , 1 Tim. 1.20 . to deliver up to Satan , when they have no Commission , Power , or Authority given them of God so to do , as the Apostles had , &c. 3dly , What great folly and madness do they shew and bewray , in Rejecting , Excommunicating , or Delivering up to Satan , such as have before rejected and denyed them , and refused to have any Communion with them , as this Hester for some time hath ; for such as were rejected and cast out of the true Church , they were either such as would have continued among them in scandalous Practises , as Fornication , &c. 1 Cor. 5. Or , 2dly , Such false Brethren , as by Blasphemies , or Heresies , troubled the Church , and would have sown Sedition and Strife amongst them ; for Testimonies in truth ( against such ) we own . Fourthly , As to that of Acts 3.22 , 23. It 's on the behalf of Christ , that great Prophet , ●hom every one ought to hear in all things ; And it 's said , Every Soul that will not hear that Prophet , shall be destroyed from among the People , &c. Now it is not every Soul that will not hear you Baptists ( and come under your Water and Ordinances , as you impose them ) that must therefore be de●troyed , however you pretend to deliver such to Satan ; but every Soul that will not hear Christ , that great Prophet of God in all things , that Soul must be cut off : And can you say that you have ever heard the Voice of Christ , who pretend your selves to be his Church ( which we both deny you to be ) ? As also , we deny that you have any Call from Christ to the Ministry . Do you judge that none hear his Voice but such as you plunge in Water ? And that all must be condemned who cannot own you in your imposed Shadows , called Ordinances , upon pretence of the Scripture being your only Rule ? when you never yet did either prove or demonstrate that ever you heard the immediate Voice of Christ , or had a Call from him for your plunging People under Water ( which is but a Shadow ) Much less can we believe that you hear him in all things else , which you practise and impose ; for Christ is the Life and Substance , and they who hear him in all things , receive Life , and the One Spiritual Baptism , which yours is not . John Newman set against himself : HIS Book and corrupt Principles being Answered by John Newman himself . His Principles and Contradictions are Collected and set opposite in his own words , and the Pages of his Book cited where they are , and briefly Noted , and Annimadvertized upon particularly , as followeth . Whereto is added , Tho. Danson , W. Kiffin , and Jer. Ives their Contradictions . [ J. N. his Contradictions . ] THE Scriptures of the two Testaments is properly and principally called the Word of God , and that distinct from Christ [ This is asserted above twenty times over ] Pages 3 , 4 , 5 , 7 , 8 , 9.10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 22 , 42. Jesus Christ in Scripture is stiled the Word of God , a Name that 's given to him , his Name is called The Word of God , Rev. 19.13 . [ but then again to shufle off this , J.N. adds ] Christ is not alwayes really that which in Scripture he is called — comparatively — He is called a Door , a Vine , &c. pag. 3 , 46 , 47 , 49. Animadversion . Surely the holy Men who spake and writ Scriptures from the Spirit of God , knew how to speak properly and truly , better than J.N. who in effect reflects on them all , as for speaking improperly ; ( what bold presump●ion and pride is it in him ? ) when they called God , or Christ , or his Name , the Word ; and said , In the beginning was the Word , &c. Therefore Christ was principally the Word ; for the Scriptures were not in the beginning : nor do they any where call themselves the Word , as improperly J. N. doth : For Scriptures signifie Writings : And is not Christ really the Door ( in the sense intended ) to them that enter in by him ? Howbeit he was really the Word , before his Name was held forth in the many Parables . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Scriptures of the two Testaments , in which is contained the Will of God , properly and principally the Word , &c. Or Way of God , in which is contained the will of God , p. 5. — The Prophet saith , God's Word is a Lanthorn to his feet , and a Light unto his paths , Psal. 119.100 , 105. Animad . Christ is the Way , the Word , and Light , and not the Writings , they are not Christ : And the Word that was a Lanthorn and Light to David , was within him before he wrote the words , and when much of the Scriptures of the two Testaments were unwritten ; And said he , I have hid thy Word in my heart , that I may not sin against thee , Psal. 119. [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Scriptures of the Two Testaments , principally called the WORD , distinct from Christ. God's perfect Way enlightned David , p. 4. and this is called the Word , Psal. 18.28 , 30. Thou wilt light my Candle , the Lord will enlighten my darkness . Animad . God's perfect enlightening Way and Word , and the Light and Candle of the Righteous , which was Spiritual , Living , and Powerful , was before the Scriptures were written . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Scriptures principally called the Word . The words that God hath spoken by his holy Prophets , blessed Son , and Apostles , p. 3. Animad . Is there no distinction between the Word and words ? In the beginning was the Word ; but since , were the words spoken , and Scriptures written . Besides , the holy Prophets and Apostles who preached the Word from the immediate Power of God , were living witnesses of what they spoke ; and their Ministry was attended with the same Power , and the plain Evidence of the Spirit went along with it , which was more than barely the writings received by tradition . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Commands of God in the first Testament , or Scriptures of the Prophets — the Word , p. 7. I shall labour to prove , That the Scriptures of the new Testament is also called the Word — distinct from Christ. The Teaching and Preaching Jesus Christ according to the Scriptures , is called the Ministry of the Word — is stiled — is called the Word of God , Act. 4.25 , 26 , 27. & 5.45 . Animad . The Word was in the beginning before the Commands , Words or Writings were given forth ; the Commands are called words that God spake . Is not there a manifest difference between the Word ( that made all things ) and the words spoken , or writ ? As also between the Ministry of the Word ( which is the preaching Jesus Christ ) and the Writings of the Two Testaments ? which this ignorant man makes no distinction between ; for was not the Apostle Paul a Minister of the Word , though not of the Letter ? Did not he distinguish between them ? which this confused Opposer hath not done . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Scriptures in which is contained the will of God , in order to man's Salvation , is properly and principally called the Word — and not Christ. — There are a People labour to blind this truth , by affirming that Christ is the Word of God , and not the Scriptures ; for they say , The Scriptures are the Sayings , or the Words of God. — Christ cannot be understood to be the Word of God , — whereas some do affirm Christ to be the VVord of God : — Such an Assertion would make Christ a Monster , rather than a compleat God , and Man , &c. p. 12 , 13 , 15 , 17 , 17 , & 49. I shall freely grant , That Christ is called by this Name , the Word of God ; — Christ being the Word of God , — Christ may be said to be in men , — He may be called the Word of God , because he will be that dreadful Executioner ; — By the Word of God's Eternal Power , &c. — He shall by by the Word of God slay all his enemies ; — in this he may be truly called the Word of God , p. 14 , 46 , 47. Animad . Thou art a blind Opposer , who perverts and darkens Truth with thy monstrous prejudice , who denies Christ to be the Word of God ; and blasphemously sayest , Such an Assertion would make Christ a Monster , &c. Yet for all this , thou shalt freely grant Christ to be called the VVord , yea , the VVord of God's Eternal Power : doest thou herein make him a Monster ? And did not the holy Men of God call him the Word ? And did they blind the Truth , or make a Monster of Christ , supposest thou ? Must we reject their Testimonies as improper and monstrous , and believe thine as only proper , which is so repugnant to the Scriptures , which are the Writings , that do contain sayings or words of God , which to affirm is no blinding of truth ? And where provest thou these words in the Scriptures , That the will of God is contained in them ? Is not the will of God Infinite ? and the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain God. So take thy Contradictions back again , viz. That to affirm Christ to be the Word of God , is to make him a Monster : — ( yet ) I shall freely grant Christ is called the Word of God , the Word of God's Eternal Power . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Scriptures properly and principally called the VVord . The Word of God therein contained — Or the Teachings therein contained — The Will and Mind of God contained in the Scriptures , p. 19 , 45 , 49. Animad . See the Contradiction and falshood of these ; for one while to say the Scriptures are the VVord ; another while , they contain the Word and Mind of God ; these are different : and thou mightest as well say that God is contained in the Scriptures , as to say the Word , and his Mind , and Will is ; and so grosly go to circumscribe and limit him who is Infinite and unlimitable , who is the Eternal Word . Mark also how J. N. his Doctrine ( of the Scriptures being principally called the VVord ) is absolutely confuted by himself in what follows . J. N's Contrad . ] How was Heaven , and Earth , and the VVorld made by the VVord of God ? and also by the same VVord are kept in store , p. 48. — The wicked shall be destroyed by this VVord . — The Rod of his mouth , Isa. 11.11 . The Spirit of his mouth , Rev. 2.12 . The sharp Sword with two edges . — The word of God's Grace in convincing , and converting of Souls , quick and powerful , sharper than a two edged Sword. — In this sense Christ may be called the VVord . Animad . But surely the Scriptures are not all this , nor ever had this sense given of them , that is here given of the Word which made Heaven and Earth , and keeps them in store ; and this did not the Scriptures . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Scriptures principally called the VVord of God , may be corrupted by man. — This Word may be , and is cor●upted by man , &c. p. 19 , 20. Being born again not of corruptible Seed , but of incorruptible ; by the Word of God , which liveth and abideth for ever , p. 57 , &c. [ Contradiction again . ] This maketh nothing to prove this word here to be Christ. Animad . The Incorruptible Seed , or Word by which we are born again , is not the Scriptures which have been corrupted by such Perverters and Corrupters of them as thou art , who goes to set them in Christ's place ; and yet ( Hypocrite like ) art not willing to keep to the language and terms ( or Doctrines ) of them . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Scrip●ures are an absolute perfect Rule for all men , &c. — unto the end of the world . Faith is b●gotten by Preaching the VVord with the work of his blessed Spirit : — Christ the Way to bring us to Life , &c. pag. 42 , 43 , 50. Animad . The Spirit of Truth leads into all Truth ; therefore this Spirit , or Christ within , is both the Guide , Way , and Rule to all that are Spirtiually minded ; All men have not the Scriptures to the World's end ; but Christ is given both for a Covenant and Light for Salvation to the ends of the Earth . [ J. N. his Idolatry , in exalting the Scriptures into the place of Christ. The Scriptures the enlightening way of the Lord , — The perfect way of God , — A Light unto his paths , p. 4 , 5. The Gospel , — The Seed in the hearts . The will of God , in order to Salvation , pag. 11 , 17 , 20. Eternal Life therein ( viz. in Scriptures ) pag. 24. The Scripture's an absolute perfect Rule ( in order to man's Salvation ) for all men to walk by , and none other , pag. 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28 , 29. The Scriptures may be corrupted by man. False Teachers corrupted the Scriptures . The Scriptures may , and is corrupted by man , p. 19 , 20. The Devil taketh out of mens hearts — the Scriptures of the New Testament , pag. 17. Animad . To the first part , these are high Names put upon the Scriptures , but not so proved thereby : — For the Enlightening , perfect Way , and Word of the Lord God , the Gospel , the Seed , the Will of God , Eternal Life , &c. were before the Scriptures were written , and did preceed the writing thereof it them who spake or writ them , as they were moved by the Holy Ghost ; and Eternal Life is in Christ , not contained in the Scriptures , as the unbelieving Jews vainly thought , Joh. 5. ( who set up the Scriptures above Christ the Life ) And the Scriptures are not the absolute sole Rule for Salvation ( and none other ) especially if they be corrupted by the Devil and Wicked men . But the Rule of the spiritual mind is spiritual , of that Spirit which leads the true Believers into all truth . For that which must be owned for the Rule of Faith , Life , and Salvation , must likewise be infallible , pure , and incorruptible ; Christ being the Author of the holy Faith , and his Light the Rule of the right Understanding , Conviction , and Perswasion , and consequently of the Belief . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Gospel which was preached unto every Creature under Heaven , was the Scriptures of the New Testament : The Everlasting Gospel . — The general ground of Faith and Assurance . Now to deny the Scriptures to be the Word , is to deny the very Fountain and Well-spring of Comforts to the Soul in Afflictions , pag. 12 , 35 , 42 , 44. The Scriptures is corrupted by man. — Prayer and Supplication to God by his Spirit , by Faith in Christ God approveth . — Christ saith , Ye will not come to me , that ye may have Life , pag. 20 , 24 , 44. Animad . Both many Creatures , and the Gospel , were before the Scriptures were written ; and the Light of the Gospel is more general to ground Faith upon than the Scriptures : and it is the Light of the Power ( or Gospel ) of God in the hearts . And the Gospel is preached in every Creature under Heaven . And eternal Life is in Christ the Incorruptible Seed , the VVord , Spirit , Life , and Light. And God is the very Fountain ( whose fulness is in Christ ) and the Well-spring of Comforts to the Soul ; not the Scriptures : This Opposer might as well say the Scriptures are God , as the very fountain and well-spring of Comforts . And those Unbelievers that thought to have Eternal Life in the Scriptures , were like J. N. and his Brethren , who will not come to Christ that they might have Life . And if we must Pray and Supplicate God by the Spirit , then the immediate guidance of the Spirit of God must be to us a Rule therein ; not the Letter . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Scriptures are a perfect absolute Rule ( in order to man's Salvation ) for all men to walk by , and none other . — For the sons of men to walk by unto the ends of the world , pag. 32 , 33 , 34 , 35. A Second Covenant of his VVill he foretold , Jer. 31. is still in force for all men to walk by , and none other . — The Second Covenant was confirmed by the Blood of that spotless Lamb , &c. — The Second Covenant of God's Will in order to man's Salvation , was confirmed by the Death of his only begotten Son , pag. 27 , 28. Animad . If the second Covenant or new Testament , may be the perfect Rule for all men to walk by , and none other ( as is confest ) then must the immediate Teachings of God in his Spirit be followed and obeyed as the perfect Rule ; for the New Covenant-way is spiritual , to wit , the Law and Spirit of God in the inward parts ; and this is above the Writings ( or Letter ) outward , which many in remote parts of the world , have not . ( Many have not the Bible who have a spiritual Light or Law of God within as the Gentiles had , Rom. 2. ) And Paul was not a Minister of the Letter , but of the Spirit ; wherefore thou that sayest the Scriptures are the absolute Rule ( for Salvation ) for all men to the worlds end , when many of whom have them not ; therein thou hast shut out the spiritual Rule of the New Covenant , and art one of them that tread the blood of Christ under foot ; by which the second Covenant was confirmed and ratified . And why hast thou such hard thoughts of God , as to think tha● all Nations that have not the Scriptures outwardly , are deprived of Salvation for want of them ? But in plain Contradiction to thy self , The second Covenant is a perfect Rule still in force for all men to walk by , and no other . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Scriptures of the New Testament so confirmed , are a perfect Rule for all men to walk by , and none other , p. 29. The New-Testament Letter is to be our Rule , pag. 103. In the second Covenant of his VVill , in order to man's Salvation , there is the Man , Christ Jesus , at the right hand of God , &c. In his second Covenant he hath promised himself to be ●he God of his People , 2 Cor. 6.16 , 17 , 18. pag. 29 , 30. Animad . The Scriptures , Writings , or Letter ( outward ) ( whether of the Old or New Testament ) ; And the second Covenant which is spiritual and inward , are two distinct things : In this second Covenant God is the Teacher of his People himself , immediately by his immediate Spirit , Power , or Unction within , which teacheth the spiritual minds of all things , which is true and no lye . And what Scripture have Baptists for saying that the New-Testament - Letter is to be our Rule ? Let them produce plain Scripture - proof for their Assertion herein , or else confess their error . For Pa●l expresly testified , that God had made them able Ministers of the New-Testament ; not of the Letter , but of the Spirit , &c. 2 Cor. 3. He doth not say they were Ministers of the Letter of the New-Test●ment ; his words will bear no such meaning : for he plainly distinguisheth between the New-Testament and the Letter , as he doth between Spirit and Letter . Many both Priests and Baptists , have ( and preach from ) that he calleth the Letter of the New-Testament , who never knew the Spirit in its living ministration , although the Scriptures testifie thereto . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Scriptures are a perfect Rule , in order to Salvation , for all men , unto the end of the world . — The very fountain and well-spring of Comforts to the Soul , pag. 44. Act. 3.23 . It is said , A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your Brethren ( saith Moses ) like unto me , him shall you hear in all things ; whatsoever he shall say unto you ( observe that ) Him shall you hear , &c. In the second Covenant — Salvation and Eternal Life to those that obey the same , — in his Son : Christ a way to bring us to Life , pag. 23 , 31 , 39 , 40 , 50. Animad . See how manifestly this Opposer hath , in these passages , broke the neck of his own Cause : For if the Son of God must be heard in all things , and he the way to Life , and Salvation be in him ( as confest ) then the Scriptures are not the fountain and well-spring of Comforts : God is the Fountain , not the Scriptures , as most ignorantly and blasphemously is assetted of them . Also note how J. N. hath totally confuted and destroyed his Cause ( of the Scriptures being the only Rule ) in what follows . [ J. N's Contrad . ] Abel , Enoch , Abraham , Isaac , Jacob , Noah , and the rest of the Holy Men before Moses day , — I grant they had a sufficient Rule before the Scriptures were written , — They had a more infallible Word to walk by ( viz. from God's own mouth ) than is now to us ; for it 's possible , that some Scriptures might be corrupted : — This may be granted in the b●st sense , that the Spirit is the Rule . — The Spirit is of more efficacy than the Letter . — I shall freely grant that the Spirit is greater than the Letter , &c. pag. 104 , 106 , 108 , 110 , 112. Animad . Here 's enough granted to make void all the Baptists work for the Scriptures being the only Rule , seeing there was a certain Rule to the Holy Men of God long before the Scriptures were written , which was more infallible than they ; even that of the Spirit , which is above and greater than the Letter , as is confessed . Reader , take notice of this his ample confession to the Spirit , against himself and his carnal conceits , in his so highly exalting the Letter as he hath done in much of his Book . [ J.N. his Doct. ] There are a People that have need to have more Christ's than one ; otherwise I know not how they will have a Christ in every man , especially those who cry up a Light in every man [ which this Opposer stiles ] a feigned Christ , or Light within , p. 18 , 29 , 61 , 72 , 74. Answ. See the ignorance and scornful spirit this man shews forth in this erroneous stuff : For , 1. Jesus Christ that was in every Saint and true Believer , was not more Christs than one ; He was still one and the same Christ , how , or in whomsoever manifest . 2dly , His Light in every man , is a true divine and spiritual Light , and not a feigned Light , as blasphemously he accuseth it . 3dly , It 's a falshood still to accuse us , with affirming , That Christ is in every man : For we say a true Light or Gift of Jesus Christ is given to every man , whereby to enlighten the Consciences of mankind . [ J. N's Contrad . ] The Word in their hearts , Rom. 10.7 . was not Christ. — The true Christ doth not dwell in any man as he is Christ ; as he is properly and principally Christ , he cannot dwell in man. — If he be with the Father , then he is not in man , pag. 54 , 60 , 61 , 66. Christ may be said to dwell in man. I shall freely own the giving forth of his blessed Spirit into the hearts of his children whereby they are directed in his most holy will by the enlightening of their spirits , - So far as the Spirit of God and Christ dwelleth in men , or any of his Attributes ; so far God and Christ both may be said to dwell in his Saints . — If we Love one another , God dwelleth in us . — He that dwelleth in love , dwelleth in God , and God in him , p. 77 , 78 , 79 , 80. Animad . To the first part , I say his insinuation against us of Chris●●eing in every man , is still false , and not our Principle ; but that a spiritual Light of Christ is , his Contradiction and Confutation to himself is obvious , in 1st . asserting that the true Christ doth not dwell in any man. 2dly . The true Christ doth dwell in man ( viz. in good men ) in that the blessed Spirit doth dwell in his Children , and direct them in his most holy Will ; and is not this their Rule then ? [ J. N's Contrad . ] God dwelleth in them . — Now the Apostle doth not intend the real Being * of God ( viz. in Saints ) in his Glorious and Immortal Substance . — God and Christ are out of all men in order to their Glorious and Immortal Being . — Those that receive Christ's blessed Spirit , such are said to receive his Father , yet neither of them in their real Being , pag. 79 , 80 , 87. This Indwelling of Christ in his People , is by his Word and blessed Spirit , and other pure Graces that are of his pure Nature and Being dwelling in his Saints , — and his Saints dwelling in the pure Life of the same , so Christ may be said to dwell in them , and they in him : — When we dwell in the Life of his Word , and powerful operation of his Spirit , and the Life of those Gifts and holy Graces being of the same Nature with Christ. — God and Christ cannot be separate in in their givings forth . — Christ in them the hope of Glory , p. 81 , 82 , 83 , 86 , 87. Animad . The manifest Contradictions in these passages run thus , viz. God and Christ in their Immortal Being are not in Saints , yet the Spirit and pure Graces that are of his pure Nature and Being , dwell in Saints . So then this eternal Spirit of God and Christ ( who are inseparable ) is of the glorious Immortal Being of both , and in the Saints . And when God and Christ are said to dwell in them , dare J. N. say they are divided from their own Being ? What place is God in where his Being is not ? And , who art thou that wouldst limit the infinite being of God from his place and habitation in his Saints ? [ J. N's Contrad . ] ●oh . 1.1 . proveth the Word to be God , for Christ was not Christ in the beginning ; but Christ was in time , when the Godhead took flesh to it self , and not before he was born of the Virgin Mary : And it cannot be in reason concluded , that Christ was the Word before Christ was , &c. p. 50 , 51. [ Of Christ ] He was not the Son of man from the beginning , for then he was only the Son of God , and the Son of Man a● he was of the Seed of Abraham , pag. 66 , 67. Animad . What a gross Error is it to affirm , That Christ was not from the beginning ; ( or that he was not the Word in the b●ginning ? ) And what a denyal of his Divinity , like the old Hereticks ? And how plainly contradicted in confessing the Son of God was from the beginning , and was then ? I ask , If the Son of God was not Christ ? Or , the Anointed of God ? Seeing he was the Son of God before he took flesh , or was born of Mary ( and the Anointed then also ) ( for God created all things by Jesus Christ , Eph. 3.9 . and by the Son he made the Worlds , Heb. 1.2 . ) The Anointing was Spiritual , and spiritually received by the Heavenly Birth * the Anointed , the holy Seed which is spiritual ; as that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit , &c. Much more might be said , on the behalf of the Divinity of the Son of God , or Christ , who was the Word in the beginning , and with the Father in his Glory before the world began . [ J. N's Contrad . ] Christ was remote from them , ( Christ doth not dwell in any man ) Christ in person remote at the right hand of God , viz. in his body of flesh , — Personal being , — transhapen manhood , — a glorified body of flesh at the right hand of God , &c. pag , 55 , 60 , 63 , 66 , 67 , 71 , 73. The Indwellings of Christ by his Word and Truth , being of the same nature with him , Joh· 15.4 . to v. 11. Christ is setting forth himself to be the Vine , and his People the branches , and adviseth them , — Abide in Me and I in you , — from Eph. 5.30 . for we are members of his body , of his flesh , and of hi● bones , pag. 75.83 . Animad . If the Indwelling of God and Christ be such in his People , and the Saints , in such near union and conjunction with Christ , as the branches with the Vine , and members with the Body ; Then 't is false and a lying Imagination , to imagine either Christ , God , and his right hand so remote , as not to dwell in any man , no not in their own People ; [ and these word● , Christ in Person , remote in his body of flesh , &c. and not in any man ] are not Scripture , but added : What strange conceits and limitations would J. N. put upon the unlimited God ( like the old Heretical Monks of Egypt , called Anthropomorphites ) contrary to his own confession . [ J. N's Contrad . ] Christ sitteth Advocate with the Father , to plead the vertue of his blood , that as there are new sins committed , we might , through Faith , have fresh grace in the pardon thereof , pag. 73. The Cond●scention of God and Christ into the hearts of his People , to work up his Saints into the same nature with himself , &c. — God and Christ is holy , so his Word is holy , Heb. 4.12 . and through Faith in this Word Christians are wrought up into the nature of it self , and into God. Gal. 4.19 . Little Children in whom I travel in birth , till Christ be formed in you , and this — to bring them forth into a Gospel purity , in heart and life . — Finally Brethren farewel , be perfect , be of good comfort , &c. pag. 78 , 84 , 87 , 88. Animad . Wherein the Baptists , or others , do preach up ( or plead ) the continuance of sin in all men ( even Believers , &c. ) term of life : This is flatly contradicted in J. N's following words , viz. That God and Christ works up his Saints into the same pure Nature with himself [ which is not a sinful Nature ] however he tells us of new sins committed , which ( he saith ) Christ pleads for pardon of ; And that through Faith in the Word , Christians are wrought into the Nature of it self , and into God [ in whom is no sin , nor imperfection ] And where Christ is formed in man [ he doth not say in a personal being remote ] and men thereby brought forth into Gospel purity in heart and life , &c. Such do not alwayes commit ( or renew ) new sins ( which renew the old man ) but are renewed in Grace , and in the new-man by the Spirit of Holiness , knowing Christ's Intercession answered ( viz. that they might be kept from evil , Joh. 17.15 . to the end . ) The sins of such being done away , and blotted out by the blood of Christ , which in his Light within is experienced ( in its vertue and power ) by such as believe and walk in it , 1 Joh. 1.7 . Now , if J. N's Contradictions , as implyed , should be thus placed , viz. Finally Brethren farewell , be Perfect , be of good Comfort , — There are new sins committed , &c. How would this answer the end of the Command [ Be Perfect ? &c. ] Or , be any comfort●ble Doctrine to any that truly desire perfect freedom from sin , and not to live any longer therein ? Here followeth the Contradictions of Tho. Danson , W. Kiffin , and Jer. Ives , upon their Principle , which was , viz. Contradict . THat the Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith. T.D. The Scriptures without divine illumination are but the foundation of an Historical Faith , and not of a saving Faith. The divine illumination of the Spirit , is the Foundation or Rule of saving Faith. Contradict . T.D. & W. Kiffin . The Director and Rule of Faith and Salvation , are two distinct things , as the way to Bristol , and my Director into the way . Yet that Christ is both the Director into the way to God , and the Way it self , they could not deny . Irational Inconsistences , & Contradictions . T.D. That the Light which the Gentiles had , Rom. 2. was not sufficient for Salvation . That their disobedience to the Light they had , was the cause of their condemnation . Yet , That if they lived up to their Light , it would not lead them to Acceptance with God. Their Contradictions at the latter Discourse . Contradictions . W. Kiffin . The Spirit ( of God ) considered as a Rule , is absolutely excluded , &c. Jer. Ives . The Scriptures , including the Spirit , are the only Rule . Our saying the Scriptures are the only Rule , does not exclude all other Rule ( or the Spirits illumination ) any more than to say God only hath Immortallity , doth exclude all else from having Immortality . Jo. Newman [ his Contradiction to W.K. ] This may be granted in the best sense , that the Spirit is the Rule ; It is of more efficacy than the Letter . Contrad . W. K. and Alderm . Hayes Quest. Whether the Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith , yea or nay ? [ affirmed by them . ] Jer. Ives [ in his Letter ] I never owned this Question in their words . Animad . Here it 's manifest how these men have shaked their own Foundation , destroyed their own Cause , and are confounded in their Babylonish building ; they having rejected the chief Corner-stone : but they who believe in the Power of God ( which is known in his Light within ) and trust in his Everlasting Name , shall never be confounded . THE END . The faults of the Press the ingenuous Reader may perceive by the sense of the matter , whether they be points , letters , syllables or words ; which are not to be imputed to the Author , but corrected , whereof these are some . ERRATA . In the Preface , pag. 4. l. 25. the parenthesis is misplaced , read it thus ; Light within ( not prejudice and darkness ) judge . P. 13. in the Margent , read Soc. Scho. l. 30. r. Theodotus . P. 14. l. 11. for heirs , r. haeresie . P. 22. l 4. blot out [ & ] P. 28. l. 12 ▪ dele without . P. 35. l. 34. r. ( or Inferred ) P. 62. l. 25. for it , r. i● . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65849-e910 Of the Scriptures . * Note . ] Jer. 2.18 . Psal. 36.9 . Joh. 4.10.14 & 7.38 , 39. Of Christ. See Euseb. Soc. Ecc. Ecc. Cro. fol. 572. Christ called by several Names . Christs Resurrection owned . and Ascention . 1 Cor. 10.4 . Christs Body real . Professors Confusion about the Body . Of God's right hand . Euseb. Eccl. Chro. fol. 584 , 588. Of Christ his second coming . Heb. 9.28 . Matth. 16.27 . Luke 9.26 . Heb. 6.6 . Revel . 11.8 . Joh. 3.19 , 20 , 21. Job 24.13 . Rom. 10. Deut. 30.14 . Jer. 8.8 , 9. 1 Joh. 2.19 . 2 Tim. 2.17 . 1 Tim. 1.20 . Acts 3.22 , 23. Notes for div A65849-e12580 * Gross ignorance ! is God any where without His real Being ? * Christ's Spiritual Birth owned . Mat. 5.48 . 2 Cor. 13.11 . 1 Pet. 1.14 , 15 , 16. Lev. 11.44 . 
A65865	----	An epistle of consolation from the fresh springs of life, and flowings forth of the Fathers love (through his servant) as a tender salutation extended to the whole flock and family of God; even to the lowest of his babes and servants, whose hearts are sincere and tender towards him: for their encouragement now in these suffering and trying times. By G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1664 Approx. 19 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65865 Wing W1927 ESTC R217349 99829023 99829023 33458 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65865) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 33458) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1860:17) An epistle of consolation from the fresh springs of life, and flowings forth of the Fathers love (through his servant) as a tender salutation extended to the whole flock and family of God; even to the lowest of his babes and servants, whose hearts are sincere and tender towards him: for their encouragement now in these suffering and trying times. By G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 8 p. s.n., [London : 1664] Caption title. G. W. = George Whitefield. At end of text: Written in the White Lion Prison, London, in the 23d. of the 7th moneth, 1664. G.W. W.M. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. 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Quakers -- Early works to 1800. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion An Epistle of Consolation from the fresh Springs of Life , and flowings forth of the Fathers Love ( through his Servant ) as a tender Salutation extended to the whole Flock and Family of God ; even to the lowest of his Babes and Servants , whose hearts are sincere and tender towards him : For their encouragement now in these Suffering and Trying times . By G. W. O My dear and tenderly beloved Friends , Brethren , and Sisters , from the greatest to the least in my Fathers family , who are raised up by the power of an endless life , and begotten by the word of truth and life into a living faith and confidence in him who is our Rock and Refuge in all tryals , afflictions , and sufferings which we are exposed to , and undergo for the testimony of Righteousness and a good Conscience ; unto you , even unto you who are partakers of this heavenly Calling , and whose hearts accordingly are set with a holy Resolution for the glory and honour of our God therein , is my heart filled with love unutterable , which ariseth from the fresh Springs of Life and Consolation made manifest from a living experience of the effectual power and work of God which hath given access into a heavenly habitation and Sanctuary wherein his presence is enjoyed , in which the fulness of Consolation and Joy resideth for the Righteous , and all such as wait upon the Lord our God in his own e●ernal spirit of life and holiness , whose delight is to dwell with him in his Mansion-house , which we have access into through the new and living way , which in the everlasting and unspeakable love of God in his own Son is now made manifest , and the many veils seen thorow , by which this way and habitation was hid from us , whilst our minds were alienated from the lo●e and everlasting light of the Lord God and his Christ ; but now therein is life and Salvation brought forth and come near to many , whose hearts are enclined towards him , and set to seek the fountain of life : And it is not the power of darkness , nor the enmity of the Serpent or old Dragon , nor the dark wrath of man that shall be able to hinder , obstruct , or frustrate the Lord God in his proceeding in this his great work of Righteousness , which by his mighty arm and power he will carry on and prosper , to the perfecting his own praise in his people , and as he hath glorified his everlasting name , and Crowned his own seed with glory , victory , and tryumph thorow sufferings and tribulations , ( which glory and victory many in their own particulars are partakers of ) so he will glorifie and renown his name and seed thorow those tryals and sufferings , which yet remain to be fulfilled amongst his faithful witnessess , servants , and people who are called , and chosen , and faithful , being endued with the spirit , nature , and properties of his Elect seed in which his soul delighteth , and with whom the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper , and which shall out live the enmity , and Reign over its Adversaries and Oppressors , though they ( for a time ) be permitted to appear with a high hand , and the wicked so highly to lift their horns up against the seed of the Righteous ; and to attempt the rooting out of the faithful from amongst men ; yet we have no cause ( in any of these things ) to distrust the Lord , or to be weakened in our confidence which he hath raised up in us ; for he is with us who is mighty to save , and his care , mercy , and tenderness is felt towards all that truly fear him , and obey his voice ; and of this I am a living witness , who from time to time upon the weighty consideration , and feeling of the goodness of our God , and largeness of his love to his people , have been and am filled with the sense of his presence and unspeakable glory over all that which would oppress or hurt , which cannot enter into the holy Mountain , and in that glory and life received , is my heart and bowels of tender love enlarged towards all the upright in heart , who are come of a holy right seed , a●d sprung forth from a noble Vine , and not only so , but in ho●y confidence , and stedfast Resolution , are given up in the spirit of life , wisdom , and power , and of the fear of the Lord , to follow him in the faith , patience , and suffering of his own faithful and Elect seed , which you that abide in , shall never degenerate from the nature and innocency thereof , but know your victory and dominion therein over death and hell , where the gates threeof shall never be suffered to prevail against you ; for as in the faith and obedience you are given up in his will who hath called you , your habitation and security stands in his name and power , to which the Righteous flie and retire in all their troubles and tribulatio●s , which though they be many , yet so many deliverances do they meet withall at his hand , who is our Rock and Refuge , whose Salvation becomes as Walls and Bulwarks for the faithful . Oh my dear Friends both in the City of London , Bristol , Hartford , Reading , Colchester , and elsewhere in this Nation of England , who for the tryal and exercise of your faith and patience thorow many tribulations and sufferings , and who more particularly at this day and time are under a deep tryal and exercise , [ the power of darkness and its Instruments being permitted to afflict you , and to break your harmless and innocent Meetings , and to hurry many of you into holes and prisons , ] and yet you retain so much tenderness in your spirits towards God ▪ and respect to his testimony and cause , that you dare not deny him , but must confess him and his truth and righteous testimony and worship before men , and for that cause have given your backs to the smiters , and exposed your selves to undergo the deep sufferings or penalties , that men may be permitted to inflict upon you ; and even to give up your lives for a prey , rather then the name of the Lord should be dishonoured by you ; Oh dear hearts hold fast your confidence and resolution in the name and power of the everlasting Jehovah , in whom is your strength and safety , and keep within , and be retired in your minds when temptations or any discouragements would enter you to weaken any of your faith , for in the light and power of the God of Jacob , a safe habitation is known , out of , and above all the troubles of the world , and the persecutions that we meet with in it , and in the secret pavilion of the Almighty , and hiding places of the Lord , the oppressed that wait upon him find a Refuge in the time of trouble , and therein do see over all the blackness and darkness which hath covered the Earth , in which the enmity worketh against the righteous seed , and do know a sweet repose in their deepest sufferings and tryals , and that Well-Spring of life is set open in them , which makes all easie to them , and sanctifies every state and condition of what tryal or exercise soever they meet with for the name of God or his testimony ; and herein joy , and peace , and everlasting glory and triumph is seen and felt by all the faithful and sincere in heart over all their oppressors . And that all you sincere hearted and tender Friends , whose eyes are turned towards your maker , and whose faces are set Sion-ward may be so retire in your minds to the principle of truth , and so watchful in the light of the Lord , and to enjoy a peaceable habitation and sanctuary in him in all your sufferings , for this hath my soul travelled , waited , and breathed unto the God of my life and Salvation , and that you all may feel your establishment and security in the life and Covenant of the everlasting God , and in the enjoyment of the true Communion and fellowship of the everlasting Gospel , wherein every member of the body in that Communion doth partake of the living bread in the Fathers Mansion-house , and therein become one bread to the strengthning , refreshing , consolating , and building up of one another in the most holy faith , which worketh by love , and which edifies the whole body throughout , which all that come truly to partake of and enjoy , 't is neither persecutions , nor tribulations , nor principalities , nor powers , nor thrones , nor dominions , that shall be able to separate them from the love of God in Christ ; neither shall any Rent or Schism come within that bond of love or bundle of life , wherewith such are bound up together ; for they are such as have overcome by faith and patience , and have offered up all to the will of him that hath called them , and their name shall not be blotted out of the Book of Life , but be confessed before the heavenly father and his Angels , in as much as they have confessed him and his Son , and held forth his testimony , and not been ashamed thereof before men : And these are they that are so nearly related unto God in his own likeness and heavenly Image , that they are his chosen ▪ refined , and precious Jewels , never to be forgotten by him , nor separate from him , for they are as the Apple of his eye , and engraven in the Palms of his hands ; and such a Remnant our God certainly hath in this Nation , in whom I have seen that which my soul hath travelled for , and which hath been to my souls satisfaction , and as one having largely felt the Lords presence , and still feeling the enjoyment of the same , and his glory to be the Reward , as it is to those that minister relief to the oppressed , and bread to the hungry , for which many can bless the Lord on our behalf I find the same living faith and confidence remaining in me , in behalf of the work of the Lord , and the prosperity thereof as ever ; and this is the work that he hath made me and others of his faithful servants instruments in , which is so far brought to pass and effected by his mighty power , as all the powers of darkness hell , and death , shall never be able to undoe it , nor all the storms , tryals , or oppositions that ever we meet withall shall ever be able to disanull it , or put a stop to it ; for it shall prosper over the heads of all the adversaries and oppressers of the righteous seed ; and that testimony which we have stood up for in this Nation shall never be extinguished , but be had in everlasting remembrance ; and this hath the Lord sealed and confirmed unto my soul , so as it s neither imprisonment , nor exilement , nor death it self that I look out at ; but as to what the Lord may suffer in these things I commit to him , as knowing a life in that faith that sees to the end of these things , and beyond the wrath of man and enmity of the wicked , which so highly is at work in our dayes , as had not the Lord in a great measure put a limit and restraint thereto it would have extended to the taking away many of our lives , not onely by that covertly way of hard imprisonment , and lingering martyrdome therein , but also by speedy execution under pretence and colour of legal proceeding or justice ( so called ) on the persecutors part● ; and how far yet the Lord may suffer the enmity to proceed in that case against any of us , his will be done ; and that I commit unto him who is the wise God as not being careful in it : but thus far I can say , That we must be willing to offer up our selves unto the deepest and utmost tryals , as required therein , to hold forth our testimony for our further manifestation , and both the righteous and the wicked shall be tryed in their way , and our God hath raised up a remnant whom he hath prepared and fitted to try those weapons and unrighteous decrees that are formed against the righteous seed , and they shall be tryed to the utmost , and broken thorow ; for no weapon formed against Zion shall prosper , because the righteousness of her children is of the Lord , who must have the glory in the deliverance of his own seed , and in the removing the rod of the oppressor , and breaking asunder the bands and cords of the wicked , who have taken counsel together against him and his anointed , whom he that sitteth in the heavens hath in derision in all their high and proud attempts against him and his seed , and their unrighteous designs and consultations , which would debar his annointed of his liberty in his people and followers ; but the King of Zion is set upon his holy hill , who shall rule nations with a rod of iron , and break them as the vessels of a potter ; for power shall be given him over the Nations , and he shall lay Babylon utterly waste , and her noise , musick , pomp , and vain glory shall cease , in which she hath rejoyced over the Saints and true witnesses , and followers of the Lamb , and the slain in her the earth shall not cover , but disclose her blood , when the indignation of the Lord breaks forth , and his vials of wrath comes to be emptied by his Angels , and executioners of justice upon the seat of the Beast ( that hath upheld Babylon in her abominations , and them that have taken part with , and followed the Beast ) and persecuting spirit . And our God is the same that ever he was to his own , and his promises fail not , but are now a fulfilling : And therefore O thou seed of Jacob , and off-spring of Israel , whom God hath chosen , fear thou not , nor be dismaid , for I am with thee , saith the Lord ; I will strengthen thee , and help , and uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness , and all they that are insenced against thee , and they that strive with thee shall be ashamed and confounded , and shall be as nothing yea , they shall perish that war against thee : fear not thou worm Jacob ; but arise in the power of the holy one ; for to thee it is given to thresh the mountains , with thy sharp threshing instrument , and to beat them small , and to make the hills as chaff , and thou shalt rejoyce in the Lord ; and those that come of thee sha●l take root , and Israel which prevaileth with God shall blossom , and bud , and fill the face of the world with fruit , and I will be as the dew unto him ; he shall grow as the Lilly , and cast forth his roots as Lebanon , saith the Lord : What though if men be suffered to persecute , hurry about , exile , transport or transplant any of us who are of this seed ; yet they cannot hinder this from growing , nor the branches thereof from spreading over Nations and Kingdoms , because our God hath caused , and will yet cause his own seed to take deep root among nations and people , and will root out the uncircumcised before his plant . And thou , O Zion , and Church of the living God and suffering seed , who hast laid thy body as the ground , and as the street to them that went over , that thou mightest keep thy conscience clear , and not bow down thy soul for thy enemies to go over it ; the Lord thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people , will give the cup of trembling and fury which thou hast drunk of into the hand of them that afflict thee ; therefore put on strength and courage in the Lord thy God , and shine forth in thy brightness and beauty ; for he is with thee ▪ who hath laid thy foundations with Saphires , and thy stones with fair colours , and he will adorne thy dwelling , and beautifie thy scituation , as with the most precious and pleasant stones , though thou hast been as one afflicted and tossed with tempests and troubles within and without , and whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake , and the gathering of the people , and the fulness of the Gentiles shall be unto thee , and the sons of them that afflicted thee , and all them that have despised thee shall bow and bend before thee . O my dear friends who are come to a living faith concerning these things , and to know that seed , in which all the promises of God are , yea , and Amen , dwell and abide therein ; and as you are called to bear a publick testimony for God , in order to the gathering of many unto the covenant of promise ; so be faithful in holding forth that testimony , though for it many be called to suffer in this day of tryal , and to offer up all for the sake thereof ; yet the Lord being with us let us go on in his name , and by him make mention thereof , and vindicate his worship in spirit and truth ▪ which we suffer for , and in the power , authority , and counsel of God stand up for our just liberty therein before our persecutors , and Judges , when we are called before them , and in the weighty and feeling spirit of life , Friends to endeavour ( when called before their oppressors ) to fasten something upon their consciences , for the innocency of our Cause , and when any of them are tryed in order to banishment , ( or the like ) that they may be so kept in the fear and counsel of God , having their spirits seasoned with his life , as they may be manifest in the consciences of both their persecutors and spectators ; and that it may be apparent that friends are in the name of the Lord , which is above every earthly name ( how great soever ) and that in this name of our God we walk and suffer for obeying him , and assembling together singly and innocently in his way and worship , and suffer upon an innocent and conscientious account whatever otherwise men unrighteously pretend against us ; and this our suffering shall preach , and the Gospel of the Kingdom shall there thorow be witnessed and sounded forth to the gathering in of many into the love of that truth which we have received , though some that are unfaithful , and such as back-slide in heart shall be scattered and blown away with the storm ; but the faithful and upright , whose hearts are perfect towards God , he will shew himself strong on their behalf ; and they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goes , who through great tribulation have their garments washed in his Blood , and who abide in the Temple and habitation of the living God , serving him continually therein , the storm shall not be suffered to remove them , nor the heat to scorch them , but under the shadow of their souls beloved they shall sit down in peace , and the Lamb shall feed them , and lead them unto the fountains of waters ; even so the Lord God encompass all you his dear babes and spiritual off-spr●ng with the arme of power , and make you as a wa●ered Garden , and surround you within the bounds of his salvation , and confound your enemies , and make their evil designs and intentions void and frustrate , that he alone may have the glory and preheminence amongst his people in this his day . From your dear brother and fellow sufferer who travels in spirit and waits in patience with the suffering seed for Sions deliverance out of all her troubles , and ren●wn over all her enemies . G. W. W. M. Written in the White Lion Prison , London . the 23d . of the 7th . Moneth , 1664. The End. 
A65858	----	The contemned Quaker and his Christian religion defended against envy & forgery in answer to two abusive invective pamphlets, the one stiled Antichrist in spirit unmasked, the other Railings and slanders detected, promoted by some persons commonly called Anabaptists at Deptford in Kent who have unwarily begun the contest. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1692 Approx. 125 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 49 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65858 Wing W1919 ESTC R26354 09436498 ocm 09436498 43101 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65858) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 43101) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1320:3) The contemned Quaker and his Christian religion defended against envy & forgery in answer to two abusive invective pamphlets, the one stiled Antichrist in spirit unmasked, the other Railings and slanders detected, promoted by some persons commonly called Anabaptists at Deptford in Kent who have unwarily begun the contest. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 94 p. Printed for Tho. Northcott, London : 1692. Signed (p.89): G. Whitehead. Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Paye, Edw. -- (Edward). -- Railings and slanders detected. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Andrew Kuster Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Andrew Kuster Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion The Contemned QUAKER , AND HIS Christian Religion , DEFENDED , Against Envy & Forgery , In Answer to two Abusive Invective PAMPHLETS , The One stiled , Antichrist in Spirit Vnmasked ; The Other , Railings and Slanders Detected , Promoted by some Persons , commonly called Anabaptists , at Deptford in Kent , who have unwarily begun the Contest . Jer. 48.30 . His lies shall not so effect it LONDON , Printed for Tho. Northcott , in George-yard in Lombard-street . 1692. THE CONTEMNED QUAKER , AND HIS Christian Religion defended . WHereas in a small Treatise , entituled , Antichrist in Flesh unmask'd , and the Quakers Christianity vindicated , from the Malitious and Injurious Attempts of Edward Paye , William Alcott and Henry Loader , in their late Defaming , Confused Book , falsly stiled , Antichrist in Spirit Vnmask'd . I did near the Conclusion of the said Treatise seriously enquire only of William Alcott and Henry Loader , in these four Questions following , viz. I. Was Edward Paye Deputed and approved by your Congregation , or any Select Assembly of Elders or Mininisters of the Baptized People or Churches , to Write and Publish his said Book against the People called Quakers , or did he do it on his own Authority and Head , with your Approbation only ? II. What Ministers or Elders of your Churches , besides your selves , did peruse and approve of Edward Paye's said Book , before printed , and of the Printing thereof , to Defame us as a People ? III. Is the said Edward Paye , indeed esteem'd among you and your Society a good Christian , a Person of a Godly and Sober Conversation , of Sound Judgment , Piety and Parts , meet to manage Matters of Controversy about Religion ? IV. Do you intend to stand by him the said Edward Paye in all Matters that he has written , in Charge , both against certain Persons and against the People called Quakers , in his Book ? Having also given my Reasons for these Questions in the said Treatise , Antichrist in Flesh , p. 26. Now let it be observ'd , that to these Questions I find no answer from the said William Allcot or Henry Loader , to whom they were put ; but a pretended and evasive Answer from Edward Paye himself , having only his own Name subscribed a few Lines after , but no William Allcot nor Henry Loader subscribed thereto , but Edward Paye left to shift for himself , and they slunk back , for all they highly commended his Work and defamed us in their Commendatory Epistle to his other Pamphlet ( i. e. Antichrist in Spirit ) against us . And yet as if he had a Plurality of Advocates to answer for him , he gives us his slim Answer in the Plural thus , viz. We will give an answer to G. W's impertinent Questions , though I think they are not worth taking notice of : His Questions are four , but his Reasons for asking them vanish in answering the first . — And in the pretended Answer it is said , E. P. did Write and Publish his Book by the Approbation of the majority of this Congregation ; and so he did not do it on his own Head ; neither did we see it needful to desire the Approbation of others herein , though several have approved of it since , p. 37 , 38. But what We are these give this Answer besides Edward Paye ? we find no Body's Name else to it but his own : If by [ WE will give an Answer ; neither did we see it needful to desire the Approbation of others ] be meant William Allcot and Henry Loader ; why did they not put their Names to it ? Why do they now shrink back and decline their Brother in his Work , seeing the Enquiry was so fairly made of them ? Can they or Edward Paye either reasonably suppose , that we ( as a People defamed and injured by E. P. ) will accept of his own Answer or Justification of his perverse Work , and himself too , and believe that he says true , in saying , That he did Write and Publish his said Book by the Approbation of the majority of their Congregation at Deptford ? For my Part I do not believe him herein ; in Point of Charity I do not suppose the majority of the Congregation or Hearers of the Baptists at Deptford are so grossly corrupted and deluded into Envy and Prejudice as really to believe and approve of such a Bundle of Malicious and Numerous Slanders , Forgeries , Notorious Lyes , Perversions and Abuses as are contain'd and apparent in the said Pamphlet , styl'd , Antichrist in Spirit , by Edward Paye ( and many of them repeated in his second ) and highly approved by William Allcott and Henry Loader : But if either the majority or minority of their Congregation have given their Approbation for the Writing and Publication thereof ( as is pretended ) I and others of us should be very sorry for their sakes , that they should be so miserably deluded , as not only to believe , but approve of the Publication of such gross Slanders and Defamations against their Innocent Neighbours , as are contained in the said Pamphlet : And that they should be so implicit and blindly credulous of such gross and notorious Falshoods and Reproaches , invented by envious Persons and Persecutors . And you E. P. W. A. and H. L. who have so far deluded any of your Hearers , have much to answer for , and a sad account to give , before the Righteous Judge of all . But now , seeing the Writing and Publication of E. P's said Envious Pamphlet ( i. e. Antichrist in Spirit ) is at last so far dedicated to the majority of the Baptist's Congregation at Deptford , as having their Approbation , it may not be unseasonable to shew them and others some of Edward Paye's and William Allcot's notorious Falshoods , Slanders and Perversions contained therein ; and in his last Pamphlet also , stiled , Railings and Slanders , &c. which I shall here recite in their own Words , as in Charge against them and all that approve or publish them , to their Shame and Disgrace . The Holy Scriptures this Generation of Men ( i. e. the Quakers ) contemn and vilifie ( Commendatory Epistle , by William Allcott and Henry Loader to Antichrist in Spirit ; ) and that the Quakers are great Enemies to and Contemners of Holy Scriptures , p. 20. This is their General ( and a most odious ) Charge , which in our very Souls and Consciences , in the Sight of God , we the said People do utterly deny with Detestation ; and I find that all their pretended Proofs do fail of any real Proof of the Matter charged , the chief whereof being hereafter examin'd more particularly . That the Quakers prefer their Lying Pamphlets above the Scriptures , p. 9. Their pretended Proof is , That G. W. affirms , That which is spoken from the Spirit of Truth in any , is of as great Authority as the Scripture , and greater , p. 11. quoting Apology , p. 49. In which Apology no Pamphlets at all are preferred above the Scriptures , but the immediate Living Ministry of the Holy Spirit within above the Letter , the Divine Inspiration which was before the Scriptures were written , for they proceeded from it . I am very unfairly and unjustly dealt with in this Charge ; my Intentions and Words perverted , after the Word [ Scriptures ] in mine , [ or Chapters ] are here left out ; and after the Word Greater all these following are left out , viz. [ as received and proceeding immediately from that Spirit , and spoken in the Sense thereof ; as Christ's Words were of greater Authority ( or Power ) when he spake , than the Pharisees reading the Letter ; and them in whom that Spirit speaks not , and their Speaking we deny ; ] whereby I did prefer the Spirit in it's Living and Powerful Ministry above the Letter , but not a Word of preferring any Pamphlets to the Holy Scriptures : God knows , it never entred into my Heart to prefer any Pamphlets or Books , extant in the World , ( much less Lying Ones ) before the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament , but do prefer and esteem them before all other Books or Writings extant , whatsoever . When Humphry Smith 's True and Everlasting Rule came in date , the Scriptures became no better than an Old Almanack . [ this from a Story of Tho. Hicks against one Tho. Holbrow ( though we know no such Person ) Dialogue , p. 27. to which Edward Paye , &c. addeth these Words , viz. ] These are the Men that in their Pamphlets profess so high an Esteem for the Holy Scriptures , Antichrist in Spirit , p. 13. Pray observe here , These Men , here accused ( with esteeming the Scriptures no better than an Old Almanack ) are therein most wickedly belied and scandaliz'd , being those of us who publisht the Paper in Print , entituled , The Christianity of the People commonly called Quakers asserted , wherein we sincerely declare ( the quite contrary to what 's here implicitly charged by E. P. &c. against us , ) namely , That we do believe and own the Holy Scriptures , contained in the Books of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration , &c. Tho. Hicks in his Dialogue I. p. 24 , 25. and Edward Paye , &c. ( on his Credit ) Falsly and Wickedly Personate the Quaker thus , viz. When we make use of Scripture , it is only to Quiet and Stop their Clamours that plead for it as their Rule ; but for us had the Scriptures never been we could have known what * is therein contained . I hope ( quoth Edward Paye ) the Reader by this may perceive the Reason why the Quakers talk so much of Scripture in their Paper . Observe , we own not the Scripture , we seemingly allow it , but our End in this is only to stop their Clamours that plead for it as their Rule . You see here ( quoth E. P. ) the condescending Spirits of these Men , &c. Antichrist , p. 15. We do in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ utterly deny this Passage and Declaration , as laid down in the Quakers Name and Person , as no Declaration or Speech made or thus declarable by the Quakers , on their Principle , but a Horrid Abusive Forgery of Thomas Hicks , long since detected , and which you Baptists now may be horribly ashamed to bring forth , or suffer to be renewed in Print . The Names they ( i. e. the Quakers ) give the Holy Scriptures , viz. No better than an Old Almanack , a Dead Carnal Letter , p. 18. But on second Consideration , E. P. deems it a difficulty to prove that the Quakers do now in the present Tense say , The Holy Scriptures are but a Dead or Carnal Letter , as his other Pamphlet - Raylings , p. 23 , 24. and yet chargeth them in the present Tense , with giving such Names to the Holy Scriptures ; but now 't is a Difficulty to prove his own Charge . Among the Names which E. P. falsly chargeth the Quakers to give the Holy Scriptures , viz. That they are the Precepts and Traditions of Men , p. 18. That Obedience to the Scriptures is the Harlot's Child , p. ibid. These are both utterly denyed by us the said People , and the pretended Proof of the first is hereafter examined and proved false . The latter I really believe could never be so said , nor ever was held by the Quakers , so to term sincere Obedience to the Holy Scripture , but rather to reflect upon an Hypocritical Profession , and Imitation of some Shadows and outwardward Things , and neglecting the Substance of the New Covenant Dispensation . That the Heaven , they ( i. e. the Quakers ) intend ( wherein the three Divine Witnesses bear Record ) is No where else but within their Mortal Corrupt Bodies ; they intend no other Heaven than what is within them , Antichrist in Spirit , p. 20 , 21. This is expressly contrary to our known professed Principle of the omnipresence of God and his Spirit , both in Heaven above and in Earth beneath , and whom the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain . And I take the Charge to be but E. P's own Consequence , which he himself has drrawn from some Words he has partially and mincingly taken up against James Parnell , Thomas Lawson , Edward Burroughs , &c. First , For a Pretext , quoting James Parnell's Book ( as he calls it ) Satan's Design Discovered . But I know no Bok of James Parnell's so entituled upon the Reviewing the Titles of his Books , nor any of the rest quoted , that oppose or disown God's Omnipresence ; much less that the People called Quakers are guilty of any such Charge . I would desire E. P. if he will still be so injurious as to reassume this Charge against the People called Quakers , that he would yet be so ingenious as fairly and fully to cite the whole Passages of the Authors quoted by him , relating to the Matter intended , and for Proof of his Charge , without his own Consequences and Perversions . That if it shall appear that any of them have opposed or denyed the Omnipresence of God or his Eternal Spirit , we may shew our dislike thereof . But , I believe , there 's enough in our Friends Books to clear them , if honestly viewed and cited , and we have great cause to Question , and detect his unfair Citations , as I have this following Instance against my self ; for Proof of his said Charge 8. Quoting Dipper plung'd ; Christ without us is not Scripture Language , but the Anthropomorphites and Muggletonians , Antichrist in Spirit , p. 22. But E. P. in his other Pamphlet , Railings , p. 29. varies in his Repetition of his Charge thus , viz. G. W. Dipper plung'd — Jesus Christ a Person without us is not Scripture-Language , &c. Observe here , in the one it is Christ without us ( where after ( Christ ) E. P. leaves out [ God-Man , a Person ] i. e. without us , which , I said , is not Scripture-Language , &c. In the other it is Jesus Christ , a Person without us , is not Scriture-Language ; where after [ Christ ] he leaves out God-man again , and yet both charged by the same Credulous Person E. P. though both be falsly cited and unjustly charged upon me as mine . For to Tho. Hick's strange Phrase , viz. Jesus Christ God-man , a Person without thee , Dial. p. 9. My Answer was , This is not Scripture Language , but the Anthropomorphites and Muggletonians who profess a personal God , denying him to be an Infinite Spirit ; Dipper plung'd , p , 13. Wherein my Objection was not against the Words Jesus Christ without us , for he is both without us and within us , but my Question was of the Words [ God-man , a Person without us ] including God as well as the Man Christ Jesus , as being but a Person without us , which may be ascribed to any Man or Woman that is but a finite mortal Creature ; which as it was not Scripture Language , I did esteem it too low and mean an Epethite to ascribe to an Infinite and omnipresent God ; but does this deny either God or Christ to be in Heaven above , or confine God only in the Hearts of his People ? No sure , and I was very Conscientious and Tender of the Glory and Dignity of God and Christ therein , as thinking T. Hicks and his Brethren would never preach People into the Knowledge of the true God or Jesus Christ , by telling them , That God and his dear Son Christ Jesus , is a Person without them ; howbeit I am not so pertinacious in my Objection , but if they 'l bring me Plain Scripture , that calls the Infinite God a Person without them , let it be in any true Translation of Holy Scripture , and I 'le acquiesce , for I am not willing to be under any Mistake , Heb. 1.3 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Figura substantiae ejus , Figure of his Substance ; 't is not Image of his Person , nor the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in conspectu Christi , as some have it , others in persona Christi , 2 Cor. 2.9 . which proves not the Phrase [ God-Man a Person without thee ] to be a Scripture Phrase . Whereas G. F. said , He that hath not this Christ ( that was Risen and Crucified ) within , is a Reprobate ; Great Mystery , f. 206. Here E. P. leaves out the Words [ Risen and ] and proceeds , viz. I think here is a bare-faced Piece of Blasphemy and down-right denying the Lord Christ. What was that the False Christ that dyed at Jerusalem , without the Gates of Jerusalem ? Ay * , saith George Fox , if there be any other Christ than he that was Crucified within he is the False Christ ; p. 28. quoting G.F. his Mystery , p. 206. And then E. P. Falsly and Absurdly Discants upon the Words Crucified within ; whereby he saith is meant , within that Man , the Son of Mary , not the Man that was Crucified was Christ , p. 28. None , but one blinded with Envy , would ever have thus Charged G. F. or the Quakers with such horrible falshoods and Forgery ; G. F. gives no such Answer , as Ay to the Question . Before , he owns no other Christ than him that was Crucified and Dyed at Jerusalem , and the same Christ to be within , as the Apostles did . G. Fox's own Words clear him herein , even in the very Book and Page cited by E. P. viz. Great Mystery , p. 206. where G. F. saith , If Christ that was Crucified be not within , and Christ that 's Risen be not within , I say that you all are Reprobates : And this is not opposite to Jesus Christ without , that Dyed at Jerusalem , but the SAME . And the Apostles Preach'd Christ ( that was Crucified ) within , and not another , him that was Raised from the Dead , was Risen ; that Lord Jesus Christ within ; it was HE that was manifest IN the Saints , that was and is , and not another , &c. Now let all Impartial Readers Judge how clear G. F. and we are from the Blasphemies before-charged , as both that of denying the Lord Christ , or esteeming him the false Christ that Dyed at Jerusalem . Oh! Edward Paye , William Allcott and Henry Loader , and those of your Congregation , who approv'd of your said Pamphlet , containing such Horrid Abominable Lyes , Perversions , Slanders and Forgeries , as these against G. F. and us : Be ye all horribly ashamed thereof and repent , before it be too late . Your following Charge , deduced from the foregoing , is of the same kind , and as wickedly False and Pernicious , viz. Christ that was Born of the Virgin , was Crucified upon the Cross without the Gates of Jerusalem , that was in all Points tempted like as we are , yet without Sin. This they ( i. e. the Quakers ) will not allow to be the True Christ or God's Christ ( which is a most horrid Lye , elswhere detected ) . Is not this a plain denying of the Lord that bought them , Antichrist in Spirit , p. 28 , 29. See also Mr. Penn's Sandy Foundation , p. 25.30 . To say God should Condemn and Punish his Innocent Son , that he having satisfied for our Sins , we may be justified by the Imputation of his perfect Righteousness , p. 40. Here E. P. after [ Justified ] thou hast left out [ whilst unsanctified ] and so hast wickedly perverted and altered the Sense of his Words , and belyed us and him shamefully in what follows . Why should the Quakers be such Grand Deluders , as so plainly pretend to believe it , and say he ( i. e. Christ ) dyed for your Sins , and rose again for your Justification ; when , ibid. p. 16. Mr. Penn saith , That the Consequences of SUCH a Doctrine are both Irreligious and Irrational ; and why should they believe Justification by Christ's Righteousness , p. 40 , 41. This Charge appears as notoriously false in Fact as any of the Rest. I have strictly perused the Places quoted in W. P's Sandy Foundation , p. 16 , &c. And I find no such Thing , as the Doctrine of Christ's Dying for our Sins and Rising again for our Justification , charg'd with Consequences either Irreligious or Irrational : But the Doctrine , That God inflicted the Penalty of Infinite Wrath and Vengeance on his dear Son Jesus Christ and that for Sins past , present and to come , he hath wholly born , and paid it , to satisfie the offended infinite Justice , &c. ibid. p. 16. 'T was the Consequences of this Doctrine , and also that of the Justification of the Wicked or Impure Persons , before Sanctification , That W. P. deemed Irreligious and Irrational , ibid. p. 16 , 22 , 24 , to 31. And dare E. P. or his Associates own and stand by these Doctrines ( as Religious and Rational ) which W. P. opposed ? Though Christ Dyed for all Men , suffered for the Sins of the whole World , it was not under the Penalty of his Father's Infinite Wrath and Vengeance , but as a Sacrifice of a sweet-smelling Savour to God : He Rose again for our Justification , but not to Justifie us in Sin , or without True Faith and Real Sanctification by his Spirit in us . Why should the Quakers be Angry , as they have been , for calling G. F. the King of the Quakers , since he is as really so on their Account , as Christ is the King of Christians , p. 45. We do in our Consciences Testifie against this Charge , as a great and false Scandal upon us , the People called Quakers , Jesus Christ being our King and Law-giver ; G. F. was never so accounted by us , but a Servant of Christ , and true Subject in Christ's Kingdom , and Instrumental for the Good of many in his Day and Time. But read p. 6 , 7. Saul 's Errand to Damascus : And George Fox takes the Name to himself , saying , He is the Eternal Judge of Quick and Dead , p. 46. This False Charge is again recited by E. P. in his other Pamphlet Raylings , p. 35. and a Defence thereof , therein attempted by him , but to no purpose , for as was told him , it is notoriously False in Fact : And instead of proving the Charge , That G. F. takes the Name to himself , he alledges , That G. F. is so charged in the Lancaster Petition , G. F. is so charged with taking to himself the Name of the Eternal Judge of Quick and Dead . Though here E. P. misses again . He is there charged , That he professeth himself to be the Eternal Judge of the World. And who did so charge him ? But his Persecuting Adversaries in Lancashire , whose Charge he denies in the very Title of his Answer thereunto ( as well as in the Matter ) viz. The Answer of George Fox to the Matters falsly charged upon him by the Petition and Scedule aforesaid . Now , Edward Paye , mayest thou not be ashamed to make that thy positive Charge , to Defame a Person , which thou hast but upon Trust from his Adversaries , without taking notice of his Defence ? Was this Justice , or any Judicial Course of Passing Judgment before both Parties are heard , thinkest thou ? It seems thou art as Censorious as Credulous to defame others . And how knowest thou the Lancaster Petitioners were Men of Credit and Repute , that thou shouldest have more Reason to believe the Affirmative of so many , than G. F 's Negative ? And why wast thou so positive in thy Charge , as if thou hadst spoken ex certa scientia , when now thou art put to it to plead the Credit of thy Authors , and for the Reason of thy Belief of their Defamation ? Now , who can think ( sayest thou ) that such a Number of Men should agree together in Charging G. Fox with a Falshood ? Although it is well known that 't is no New nor strange Thing for False Witnesses to arise and joyn together against the Innocent , as they did against the Prophets , against Christ and his Servants ; See Psal. 27.12 . Matt. 26.60 . Act. 6.13 . And we have sufficient Instance thereof at Hand . How apparent is it that Edward Paye , and his Brother William Alcott , &c. ( and those that have approved of the Writing and Publication of E. P's Malicious Book , stiled , Antichrist in Spirit ) have agreed together , as False Witnesses against us , in their manifold , notorious and gross Falshoods , to Defame the People called Quakers ? That the Quakers do not own the Kingly Office of Christ , that Dyed at Jerusalem , no more , no nor so much neither , as the Kingly Office of G. Fox , pag. 47 , 48. We utterly deny this Charge , as contrary to our very Intentions and professed Principle . The Matter is farther examined hereafter . That they deny the Place where Christ our Highpriest is entred , which is the Heavens , Heb. 4.14 . The Quakers deny Christ to be entred into the Glorious Heavens above , p. 49. This is a notorious Falshood , detected elswhere . They deny the Blood of the Sacrifice Christ , our High Priest , offered upon the Cross , and scornful Contempt they have cast upon it , p. 50. The Lord , who knows the contrary , rebuke this Envious Lying Spirit . How can they deny the Blood , when they have owned it to be a principal Part of that Sacrifice offered for an Attonement ? The Quakers cannot believe the Priestly or Mediatory Office of Christ , because they have no need of a Mediator . If they are Perfect , &c. what need have they of the Mediatory Office of Christ ? p. 51. This Charge is falsly deduced , for our sincerely believing a Perfection ( without Sin ) attainable by the Power of Christ in this Life ; this cannot oppose Christ's Mediatory Office. 1. Because 't is by him that we attain unto that Perfection . 2. 'T is by him that we must be kept in it . 3. It is through him that we enjoy Life , Union and Peace with God , and receive all our Spiritual Blessings In Christ Jesus . See Parnel 's Shield of Truth , p. 12. where he calls Water-Baptism a Formal imitation and Invention of Men , and so a meer Delusion , p. 59. No ; He does not call Water Baptism so , but sprinkling Infants ; for in the Place cited he saith , I received Water upon my Face , as my Parents , told me , which they called Baptism : So that J. P. does not call it Baptism ; no more did the Baptists heretofore . Smith's Primmer , p. 39. Thy Baptism , Bread and Wine rose from the Pope's Invention , p. 59. Again , the Charge is made far worse in E. P's recital of it , viz. Thy Bread and Wine in the Lord's Supper are the Pope's Invention . See how barefacedly they can lye against the Truth , p. 71. I find William Smith wronged in both these Charges , and that very grossly , in being charged for writing , That Bread and Wine in the Lord's Supper are the Pope's Invention . This is a notorious Forgery , for what William Smith renders the Pope's Invention , was , Sprinkling Water in a Child's Face , making the Sign of the Cross in it's Forehead , Godfathers and Godmothers to undertake for it : Bread and Wine , so used and received ( i.e. by a Sort of Priests and People ) as the Body and Blood of Christ , which they tell them is Broken and shed for them , and did not these rise from the Pope's Invention , trow ye ? In opposition to our Belief and Profession of Christ's Merits and Work , for the Salvation of Man , our Envious Adversaries endeavour to fasten some strange Inconsistencies upon us , or Absurdities ( as I may call them , ) as perversly Stated and Construed by them , quite contrary to our said Profession , and to insinuate that our Belief of Redemption and Salvation by Christ , is neither Redemption of Body nor Soul , but only of a lost God and Christ , p. 41 , 42. which are very Foul and Notorious Perversions and Falshoods . One Instance E.P. gives , is against G.F. about the Soul , that it is part of God without Beginning or End , and then it needs no Redemption , for God did not send his Son to Redeem himself , p. 41. This gross Perversion was Thomas Hicks's , and now taken upon Credit by these too credulous Anabaptists , E. P. W. A. &c. But did G. F. say , That the Soul of the Creature Man was part of God , or of his being without Beginning or End ? No sure , but that Divine Breath or Spirit which God Breathed into Man , whereby Man became a Living Soul : Wherein is a plain Distinction between that Divine Breath or Spirit of God and the Creature Man , or his created Soul ; as may be seen more at large in G. F's Great Mystery , quoted , where he speaks of the Soul of Man being in Death in Transgression , so Man's Spirit there not Sanctified , ( and declares Christ the Bishop of the Soul ; Great Mystery , p. 91. ) which therefore needs Redemption by Christ , which cannot be said of God or Christ himself , that he Needs or Wants Redemption ; what Gross and Silly Nonsense would that be to affirm ? These Adversaries may be ashamed of such gross Perversion and Abuse , as their thus rendring the Quakers , to confound the Being of the Creator and the Creature , as if they were one and the same Being . Another Instance is against G. Keith , Speaking of Christ , That he came to Save that which was Lost in Man's Heart ; and after speaking of Christ's Ministers , preaching People to a lost God , a lost Christ , and then E. P. &c. cries out of G. K's being Inspired by the Prince of Darkness , to talk of a lost God and a lost Christ , to be Sought and Saved , p. 42. Oh horrid and abominable Falsifying and Perversion ! See G. K's own Answer and Detection to Tho. Hicks , in this very Matter , entituled , George Keith 's Vindication from the Forgeries and Abuses of Thomas Hicks , shewing , that when he speaks of a lost God , and a lost Christ ; he saith , whom they ( i. e. People ) had lost , and from whom they were separated by their Sins : And this Hicks and his Brother E. P. take no Notice of , in their Citation or False Inferences , much less of G. K's Vindication , p. 8 , 9. viz. The Plain and Open Sense of my Words is this , That as Jesus Christ came to Seek and Save the lost Souls of Men , and to Raise up and Recover the Image of God in Men again , so all the true Ministers of Christ Preached People to God and Christ , near them , whom though Men had lost , yet were near unto them , to save them , and to bring them into the enjoyment of him , and Fellowship with him . His other Instance , in p. 42. is against James Naylor's Love to the Lost , falsly quoting p. 30 , 47 , 48. citing him thus , viz. That there is a Seed , to which the Promise of Redemption is ; which Seed is that which ONLY wants Redemption , and that Christ is the Elect Seed : And then draws this Consequence from a false Position , That Christ came to Redeem Christ. We do not find the Citation true , no more than we own the Position ; we find not that his Words are , That this Seed Christ ONLY wants Redemption ; but WHEREIN only Redemption is seen and received , namely , That in the promised Seed Redemption is only to be seen and received by Man , or the Creature that wants it . Now I find a Distinction in J. N's . Writing of the Seed , as between the Seed Christ , who is the Redeemer , and the Seed of Abraham ( i. e. Believers ) whom Christ Redeems ; the Children of the Kingdom , the Children of the Promise are counted for the Seed . And this Distinction appears in J. N's own Words following : That 't is the Seed of Israel whom Christ redeems ( as J. N. saith , and tells man ) no further art thou Redeemed by Christ Jesus . And that Salvation IN the Seed is placed ; and the Heritage of Faith is the Seed that is Redeemed , which all who know Redemption by the precious Blood of Christ are redeemed from the vain Conversation ; for this End he gave himself for us , to redeem us from ALL Iniquity ; ( thus far J.N. Love to the Lost ) p. 59 , 60 , 61 , 62. concerning Redemption , but no such Words , as that the Seed , which is Christ ONLY wants Redemption . Is it not a great Shame and Reproach to Religion , that any Preachers should be so Credulous and Envious as to receive such down-right Lyes and gross Perversions , to Reproach their quiet Neighbours , and thus confidently to Expose them to the World , as these Anabaptist Preachers have done ; and thereupon to roar out and cry , Blasphemous Absurdities , Gross Contradictions to Truth ? p. 43. When such Absurdities and Gross Contradictions are their own Malicious Forgeries against us , Fomented and Exposed by Thomas Hicks ( and on Trust from him ) by Edward Paye , Henry Loader , and William Allcott . Whereas Christ hath all Power in Heaven and Earth given him , and he is our Saviour and Redeemer , and as he had Power to lay down his Life and take it up again , so his own Seed of Life , Word or Plant in the Soul ( though for a Time under Suffering and the Load of Man's Iniquity ) he hath Power to Raise it up , and therein to bring forth an Immortal Birth and Holy Generation , which is his Seed , whom he shall see as the Fruit of his Soul's Travel . Such his Condescension and Humiliation under Suffering , both inwardly and outwardly argues no Deficiency nor Impotency in Christ himself , who is the very entire Christ of God , in whom all Fulness dwells , and who received the Spirit not by Measure ; but 't was his own free Love , and Act of pure Condescension and Humility , to descend into the Heart of Man , to Redeem and Raise up Man , his Soul and Spirit out of his Fallen and Captivated Estate , and from under the Bondage of Corruption , who in that State ONLY wants Redemption , and not Christ ; for how much soever he Suffers , or is Spiritually pierc'd or grieved by Men's Iniquities , he can take unto him his great Power when he pleaseth , and ease himself of his Enemies , and his own Arm can bring Salvation to him . We never Entertained or Believed any such Doctrine as these Adversaries enviously and falsly insinuate , as that the Seed Christ ONLY wants Redemption ; for so to render him Impotent , were to oppose his All-sufficient Power and Dignity , but that 't is the Soul of Fallen Man and Woman , that wants Redemption , and not Christ , who is the Redeemer and Saviour of it ; this does plainly appear to be our Belief , from our Apprehension of the Nature and Being of the Soul of Man as a Creature , and not the Creator , viz. That the Soul of the Creature Man is not God nor Christ , But the Spiritual Being and Principal Part of Man , Created in the Image of God , and Divinely Inspired and Enlightned by its Creator and Redeemer , who formed the Spirit ( or Soul ) of Man within him ; for the Soul or Spirit of Man , as distinguished from the Body , is often in Scriture rendred one and the same thing , more livingly perceived and felt in that Divine Light and Life of Christ , whereby our Souls live to God , than by any Philosophical or School Definitions . Edward Paye's Second Pamphlet , styled , Raylings and Slanders Detected , Examined . WHereas in my late Brief Treatise , entituled , Antichrist in Flesh unmasked , I did complain against the Envy and Persecuting Spirit of Edward Paye and his Abettors , William Allcott and Henry Loader , as appearing Envious against our present Liberty ; 1. By seeking to make void one Condition thereof , which was our Profession of Faith , In the three Divine Witnesses in Heaven , &c. ( according to 1 Joh. 5.7 ) and acknowledging the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration ; being sincerely owned by us before the Parliament ( when proposed to us , and accordingly accepted , and more fully inserted in the Statute for Exempting their Majesties Protestant Subjects , dissenting , &c. from the Penalties of certain Laws ) and therein confessed to be a Profession of their Christian Belief . 2. That in Contradiction thereunto these Persons aforesaid have grossly Belied and Misrepresented us , the People called Quakers , accusing us with vilifying and contemning the Holy Scriptures ; and with saying , We own not the Scriptures , but seemingly allow them ; and that the Quakers are great Enemies to , and contemners of Holy Scriptures , Epist. and p. 14. and 20. of their first Pamph. Antichrist in Spirit ; both contrary to our Sincere and Christian Profession , and to the Civil Governments Belief and Acceptance thereof , thereby contradicting , and consequently affronting the Government in its Belief and Charity towards us , and to set Subjects at Variance , and to raise Persecution against us again , instead of being humbly thankful for their and our present Liberties . The very Nature and Tendency of these their Bitter Lying Invectives being to bring Persecution upon us , as a People not to be given any Credit unto , in our Solemn Profession before Authority . 3. When we have solemnly and sincerely declared to the Government , That we believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are given by Divine Inspiration , two or three Anabaptists ( so called ) divulge the contrary to the World in Print , &c. Unto which E. P. replies , viz. to all which I answer : 1. We did not know till our Book was published , that you had professed this as your Faith before the Parliament . The more Shame for you , to be so precipitant in your Unjust and Censorious Attempts to the Contrary ; your Ignorance herein will not excuse your Rashness , much less your Falshood , in charging us as a People ( i. e. the Quakers in general ) with being great Enemies to , Vilifyers and Contemners of the Holy Scriptures , and now their chief Guides ( as E. P. terms them ) and our former Writings , directly to oppose and evidently to contradict this Confession of Faith , p. 3 , 4. which is , our believing the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration . Now I challenge E. Paye and his Abettors , W. Allcot and H. L. 1. To produce plain Proof , That the People called Quakers do Vilifie the Holy Scriptures : This is Matter of Fact charged , What Vilifying Terms or Characters hath that People put upon the Holy Scriptures ? We do in good Conscience still deny the Charge . 2. What Expressions of Contempt hath that People put upon the Holy Scriptures , it being contrary to our Consciences and Intentions , either to Contemn or Vilifie them ? The Matter of Fact charged ought directly to be proved against us , as a People , or else retracted , and for ever condemned . 3. What former Writings of ours , or our Ministers , do directly Oppose and Contradict this our Profession , That we believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament were given by Divine Inspiration ? Where do we the said People or our Ministers declare , That the Holy Scriptures were not given by Divine Inspiration , or only given by Human Tradition ? We demand plain Proof of the Indictment or Matters herein charged against us , and by us denied . E. P. proceeds , viz. 2. We must the more admire your Presumptuous Confidence herein , that you should so affront the Government , except you had at the same Time renounced your former Writings , that so evidently contradict it , p. 3 , 4. Both which are still to prove , being sincerely denyed by us . Our Confidence in what we professed to the Government , was from an honest and good Confidence in the Truth of what we professed , and not to affront , but to answer and satisfie the Government , in what was required of us as Christians , and under a Christian Profession , and therein to be allow'd our just Liberties , both as Men and Christians ( as the Parliament then desired we might approve our selves ) ; which Christian Reputation you seek to deprive us of , and , like Persecuting Incendiaries , falsly charge us with affronting the Government in our Profession , which ( God knows ) was both Sincere and Christian , both with respect to the Eternal Deity , and the Holy Scriptures . E. P. Which way could the Quakers expect to escape being defamed or discredited ? Why , it 's like they did suppose , That the Honourable Assembly of Parliament had Matters of greater Moment , in Hand , than to compare their former Writings with their new Faith : So that if we had not concerned our selves to peep into their Writings , and compare them with their newly-professed Faith , and published this to the World , namely , That the Quakers former Writings and their late Profession of Faith , are as really alike as an Apple to an Oyster , and agree as directly as Light and Darkness , it had not been known , p. 7. Thus far E. P. 'T is very rare to find such a Piece of Presumptuous , Proud and Fallacious Insinuation as this , implying not only , that we dissembled a Profession of our Belief , in Words , before the Parliament , as directly contrary to our former Writing as Light is to Darkness ; but that the Parliament was drawn into a Mistake ( or deceived ) concerning us , by such Dissimulation : Wherefore to undeceive them and the World concerning us , these Adversaries ( to make themselves wiser than the whole Parliament , and every Member thereof ) have peeped into our former Writings , to find out Matter to Defame and Discredit us in our Christian Profession , before the Parliament . Herein they have acted like Peepers in the Dark ; but they have peeped to little purpose , for a Dark Lying Spirit has attended their Peeping ( as is clearly in this and our other short Treatise made manifest ) : And that E. P. has but peeped indeed , into some of our former Writings , and not seriously or honestly read them with due Observation , is apparent in his manifold Perversions , Mincings and Curtalizings . Concerning Primitive Errors and Corrupt Principles in Point of Faith , unduly charged upon the Quakers , p. 8 , 9. To the first I answer , We never denyed the Scriptures to contain the Words and True Sayings of God , whereas Christ is the Word , his Name is called the Word of God , Rev. 19.9 , 13. Exod. 20.1 . But that they are the Rule , that is , the only Rule of Faith , Life and Practice , as he terms them , p. 8 , 17 , 33. In that we cannot so call them , he must excuse us herein , until he produce us Plain Scripture , that SO calls them , though the Holy Scriptures be a Rule of Doctrine subordinate to that Spirit from whence they first came . But seeing it is an Article of his Faith , That the Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith , &c. He had need to produce plain Scripture , that SO saith ; otherwise his Failure therein will be an Indication , That the Scriptures are not the only Rule of his Faith , because there wants Scripture Proof of this great Article of his Faith ; and then where 's his Faith ? 2. Truly I never knew the Quakers affirm the Scriptures to be of NO Use in order to the true Knowledg of God , but that the Holy Scriptures are very useful , with the help of the Spirit of God. 3. I never knew the Quakers hold it a Sin , much less of Idolatry , to take the Practices of the Saints , Recorded , Commanded and Continuing Commands in Force in the Scriptures , for our Examples and Rules , because the Spirit of Truth , which is our chief Guide and Rule , does not lead to Reject , but to Own and Follow its own Precepts and Commands , which are in Force in Scripture . 4. I have not known it asserted by our Friends , That whatever is commanded in Scripture is no Duty to us , except we receive the Command by immediate Inspiration , as the Prophets and Apostles did ; for something commanded in Scripture is , and may be , truly in it self a Duty for all , but cannot be truly understood nor performed without the Assistance and Guidance of the Holy Spirit ; and that Spirit will not be wanting to assist in both , as truly heeded . 5. I never knew our Friends , the Quakers ( so called ) deny the Resurrection of the Just and Unjust , though probably your gross Sense thereof ; but we have only pleaded for the Spiritual , Celestial and Glorious Bodies in the Resurrection , as far excelling the Natural , Earthly and Corruptible Bodies , and sincerely believing the Holy Scriptures in that Case , Luke 20.35 , 36. Joh. 5.28 . 1 Cor. 15. Hosea 13.14 . Phil. 3.20 . 6. I never knew our Friends ( the People called Quakers ) deny the Body of Christ , that suffered , to be raised from the Grave or Sepulchre , but divers declare their Belief to the contrary ; namely , That his Flesh saw no Corruption ( or did not Corrupt ) but rose again the Third Day ; and that Christ in the same Body Ascended into Heaven ; yea also , that he ascended far above All Heavens , that he might fill all things . 7. As to that Point of your Water-Baptism , and your Bread and Wine , you must excuse us , we are not yet satisfied that they are Gospel-Ordinances , and to continue always in Force , under the Gospel and New Covenant-Dispensation , being a Dispensation of Substance , and not of Shadows ; nor do we believe that you Baptists have any immediate Call from Heaven to Baptize People in Water , nor that your observing Breaking of Bread or Drinking of Wine can properly be called the Lord's Supper , either in the Figure or in the Substance ; yet we do not Despise or Contemn either Water-Baptism or Breaking of Bread ( as we are falsly accused ) as once practised , nor as observed by such now as are Conscientious therein , from a Belief that 't is their Duty to observe the same , we charitably think , they mean well therein , but wish they might more mind and partake of the Substance , both as to the Spiritual Baptism and the Bread of Life from Heaven , for their poor Souls Relief , and Safety in Christ the Substance . 8. We never held that pernicious Tenet , of Believing , That no Blessedness is to be enjoyed by the Saints after Death , as is most unjustly insinuated against us , from Suggestions grossly false , p. 9. and elswhere detected . 9. We never denyed Justification by Christ's Works , Righteousness and Merits , much less call it a Doctrine of Devils , as we are most horridly belied , p. 9. as is clearly evinced . 10. We are not ashamed to say , and affirm , That Christ is the Light of the World , and that he is that True Light that enlightens every Man coming into the World , and that God is our Light and our Salvation ; and is not this Divine Light within , think ye ? Doth not both God and Christ , in some degree , appear within , to be known within , suppose ye ? else how should that which may be known of God be manifest within , seeing there 's no knowledg of God but by Christ ? 11. And as to Billingsgate Complements charg'd , and for Moderate and Mild Treatment of our Antagonists . The truth on 't is , the former I like not , but the latter : I am truly for Moderation and Mildness , even in treating Antagonists , if they are any whit Treatable , Rational or Fair Opponents . But if I find an opposing Adversary guilty of Envy , Lying , Forgeries , gross Perversions , Wresting and Turning my Words to a contrary Sense than they naturally import or ever was intended by me , then I hope I may tell and shew him his evil and injurious Work , and justly reprehend him for the same , and yet I not be justly deem'd guilty of Billingsgate Complements , or Rhetorick either ; for I can make no better of a gross Lye or Forgery than 't is , nor give it a better Character than it deserves , or that lying Spirit from whence it comes , which I have plentifully met with in Edw. Paye's Works of Envy against us , for which I think he justly deserves to be paid off by just Reprehension . And of his mild Treatment you may hear anon . To excuse his envious and scornful Story from our Persecuting Adversaries , the Westmorland Petitioners about Sorcery , cited in his other Pamphlet against the Meetings of the People called Quakers , p. 7 , 8. Antichrist in Spirit . Now E. P. saith , viz. For my part , I have seen them Quake and Foam at the Mouth , besides several that have been Eye and Ear-Witnesses of it , Railings , p. 10. But neither tells us the Persons , nor in what Meeting or what Place he saw them in both those Postures , nor who else , besides himself , were the Eye and Ear-Witnesses thereof : And what reason have we to believe his Testimony any more in this than in many other notorious Falshoods ? And Corrupt Notions and Deceivable Gestures , p. 11. he hath not proved against us . But instead of Proof , is now fain to beg Questions , and come to his Supposition , viz. Suppose you formerly used to Quake , Tremble , Roar , Swell and Foam at the Bull and Mouth in London , the Westmorland Petitioners may say true , &c. p. 11. See how faintly he comes off , for those Westmorland Petitioners and their Story , to render us odious . As for Quaking and Trembling , I ask him , If these be the Deceivable Gestures which he accuseth us of ? And as to Roaring , Swelling , and Foaming , which he would fain Insinuate against us , I neither know nor remember these Gestures among our Friends at the Bull and Mouth Meeting , or elsewhere in London , ever since I knew the Meeting in that place , which has been above 34 Years . E. P. grants , Christ present in Spirit , but the reason of Fasting ; his being personally taken from them into the glorious Heavens above , beyond the Stars , and they obliged to Prayer and Fasting , &c. till his second personal Coming , p. 15. Whereas Christ assigned another cause of Prayer and Fasting , even when personally present with his Disciples for the casting out the unclean Spirit , Mark 9.29 . and the Apostles approving themselves Ministers in Watchings , in Fastings , by Pureness , &c. 2 Cor. 6.5 . was not because of Christ's personal or outward absence . And as for your being obliged to Prayer and Fasting , 'till Christ's second personal coming , I do not believe you 'l fast so long : G. W. denies not Quaking and Trembling , ( quoth E. P. ) p. 16. And what then ? Was that all the Instance the Westmorland Petitioners were brought for ? Does that prove , either Sorcery , or a Diabolical Spirit , Swellings or Foamings in our Meetings , ( as they insinuated ) or deceivable Gestures , as he has accused us ? Where proves he Quaking and Trembling , ( without exception ) deceivable Gestures ? Or so called in Scripture ? Pag. 18. E. P. I have , it 's true , examin'd the Quakers Appeal , by way of Charge , against Tho. Hicks , wherein they charge him with Lies and Slanders and Forgeries . — And I have perused Mr. Hicks 's Answer to their Appeal , where Mr. Hicks clears himself both of Lies and Forgery . I find his Answer to their Appeal subscribed by no less than 22 Persons of Credit , who testifie they have Compared Tho. Hicks his Citations with the Quakers Books , out of which they were taken , and find them truly cited . Thus far Edw. Paye , in Vindication of his Brother Tho. Hicks , to regain his long since lost Reputation . Which I did not think any of the Baptists would have undertaken to defend at this time aday , especially since he was so publickly and often detected of many Gross and Notorious Forgeries ; Besides those few Passages wherein he pretended to clear himself , as his 22 Witnesses also attempted , who were of his own Party , and willing to cover him what they could ; but all would not do , they did but thereby disgrace and defile themselves , as we made it plainly appear in a small Treatise , Entituled , The second Treatise wherein the Forgers , Compurgators are Impeached , in a strict Examination of divers Citations and doctrinal Matters , in their Book , Entituled , The Quakers Appeal Answered . In which Impeachment they are proved both Unfair and False Witnesses , as well as Unjust Judges , even in Matter of Fact , as to Citations . But of this Treatise E. Paye takes no notice ; but is willing to credit and vindicate his Brother Hicks , 1. Upon his own Testimony , wherein he is Witness only for himself in his own Cause . 2. Upon the Credit of his 22 Compurgators , who were of his own Party , and willing to say as he would have them , for a cover to himself ; whereby they got no good , but shame and disgrace , as is clearly evinced in the said Second Treatise . And many of the said Hicks his deceitful Forgeries are discovered both in our Friends Narratives of the Two Meetings with the Baptists , in 1674. And also in our Answers to Hicks , one Entituled , The Counterfeit Christian , and the other , Reason against Railing . With more Books , wherein his Deceits , Forgeries and Abuses are detected . And therefore the more shame for E. P. thus to credit and justifie Hicks , as he has done , whom we well knew to be a very Envious Person , and so seems this Paye very much to resemble him therein , by espousing so many of his Lies as he has done , and now has the more pull'd an old House about his Ears , by owning Hicks and his Romantick , Fictitious Dialogues , so much as he has done ; so that now E. P. is the more bound to stand or fall by Hicks his Dialogues , seeing he has so cordially espoused his Interest . And by E. P.'s Method of Writing against the People called Quakers , we may charge all the Baptists and their Society with Hicks his Dialogues and E. Paye's disingenuous lying Pamphlets : But some among them , wiser than himself , should consider , whether his Method may be safe or reputable for them . His crediting and quoting Hicks against us , who was a bitter and virulent Adversary , is somewhat like his quoting J. Faldo's confuted Book , stiled , Quakerism no Christianity , to support his scurrilous Story from the Westmorland Petitioners , viz. That Mr. J. Faldo saith , How generally were their Meetings ( viz. the Quakers ) either silent or taken up with sudden and violent Eruptions of dismal Howllings and horrid Ravings , Persons suddenly taken as with the Falling sickness , Shaking and Foaming at the Mouth , and some lying flat on the Ground , as if stark dead ? p. 15. Here 's a long Question , containing strange Stories , but never the truer for his Mr. J. Faldo's mis-insinuating them by way of Question , neither are Questions Proofs . But we who have known our Meetings and the Manner of them all along , do know it to be a great untruth . That they were generally taken up with those sudden and violent Eruptions ( or Breakin gs out ) mentioned , though many times silent , we grant , which is a far different posture from horrid Ravings , dismal Howlings , Foamings , &c. But how does your John Faldo make out his Story ? E. P. tells us , viz. And , saith Mr. Faldo , some Such things as these I have seen and heard . Which is short of proving these things , according to his general accusation against our Meetings ; some such things as these , are not the same things : Then , How poorly does E. P. come off against us herein ? Yet fain thus to fly to our Adversaries Books for such Subterfuges , lame Proofs against our Meetings . But would the Baptists be so serv'd ? would they take it well to have Books made out of their Adversaries against them ? Whereof I could instance not only that stiled , The Anabaptist wash'd and wash'd , and shrunk in the washing , long since writ by Rich. Carpenter , Independent , ( probably as much a friend to the People called Anabaptists , as John Faldo was to the Quakers , or them either ) and many others of their Adversaries Books against them ( as E. P. has done against us ) which I presume these Baptists now would not take well , nor accept as proof against them ; so that in suffering E. P. in such his credulous and unfair Dealing , thus to gallop on against us , surely they would not be so dealt by . E. P.'s Story , accusing the Quakers out of Hicks's Dialog . 1. Pag. 24 , 25. with saying , as for us , had the Scriptures never been , we could have known what is therein contained . This ( E. P. saith ) he hath also heard from their own Mouths , Antichrist in Spirit , p. 14 , 15. But in the Name and Behalf of the People called Quakers , I deny both Hick's and Paye's Accusation ; and that he hath heard this from their Mouths . This I look on as a Lie of his own making , my self and many thousands never spoke those words , nor so believed , viz. that we could have known what ( i. e. or whatever all ) that is therein contained , &c. we disown the Expressions , as they relate to our selves . And E. P. has varied and fallen from his own Testimony as 't is general against the Quakers . Now to tell us , He has heard it from a Quaker himself , in p. 18. of his Railings and Slanders : So in one Book 't is thus , I have also heard from their own Mouths . In his other Book , 't is , I have also heard this from a Quaker my self . Thus the Man faulters and varies in his own Evidence to defend a Falshood . And his unlearned Questions ( or rather Challenge ) he pretends to be grounded on the said ( false ) Story against the Quakers , they are as impertinent and insincere on his part , namely , to resolve him what those things were that Jesus did , that are not written , Joh. 20.25 . or what were the the Contents of that Writing on the Ground , Joh. 8.6 , 8. or else let their proud boasting of Immediate Inspirations be condemned to perpetual silence . Which is a sad Sentence , both unnaturally and unjustly deduced from a Proposition made altogether in a disbelief and contempt of the Matter proposed , viz. To resolve all those other unwritten things that Jesus did , &c. by immediate Inspiration . But now the Challenge is altered , and abated too , Now let him resolve me in some of those things that Jesus did , that was not written , and what was wrote on the ground , and let him or any other Quaker do it either by a Mediate or Immediate Inspiration , or Revelation , p. 21. And what follows ? If by neither of these ways we can resolve him , then not to pretend to Immediate Inspiration . And yet he himself pretends to Mediate or more Common Gifts of the Spirit , and then confusedly tells of the use of these more immediate or common Gifts , p. 19 , 20. And yet by these his pretended more immediate or common Gifts of the Spirit , or rather mediate Gifts , in his sense , I presume he cannot resolve himself his Two Questions before , nor can he upon his own Principle either resolve them or be resolved them , either by any mediate or immediate Gifts . For the immediate , he has disclaimed , he needs it not , ( he says ) but pretends the Scriptures to be the Only Rule of Faith. By what Rule then should he be resolved what those or any of those other things were that are not written ? John 20.25 . Therefore he has insincerely and temptingly imposed unlearned Questions and Propositions , which he does not believe can be resolved to his conviction or satisfaction , and thereupon has past unjust Judgment against our having immediate Inspiration ; & yet in contradiction to himself , tells us of common and more immediate Gifts and Graces of the Spirit , and of the use of these more immediate or common Gifts to help our Infirmities , p. 19 , 20. Altho I presume he would be loath to have his own Judgment and Condemnation against us return'd upon himself , on the same condition . For 't is certain , he that has not the Spirit of Christ , is none of his . And what are these more immediate Gifts and Graces of the Spirit he pretends to the use of , seeing he and his Brethren pretend not to immediate ( or extraordinary ) Inspirations , p. 19 , 20. There 's another Contradiction in the Case , to prove their Call to Baptize People in Water . ( He saith ) they have a sufficient Call for it from the Commission of Christ our Great Prophet , who is to be heard in all things , Matth. 28. Mark 16. and the frequent Examples of his Apostles , &c. So that we need not immediate Inspirations for our Call or Authority herein , p. 21. Ans. Which is to tell us , you may take upon you to be Preachers and Baptizers in Water , without being inspired by Christ , because he gave a Commission to his Disciples to teach all Nations , baptizing them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , into the Name of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost . But , 1. This is no proof , that you are called by Christ to either . 2. Here 's no Water mention'd in the Commission . 3. And to baptize into that Name , is a work of the Spirit attending a living and spiritual Ministry , given and authorized by Christ himself , which this proves not yours to be , no more , than that the false Prophets were true and truly commissionated , because they said , thus saith the Lord ; when yet God never spoke to them no more than Christ hath spoke to you to Preach and Baptize with Water ; when as you do both without his immediate Inspiration , Commission , or Spirit ; and consequently you do not hear him in all things . 4. Neither does it follow , that you hear Christ , because you Preach and Baptize People in Water , by imitation of others , whom he sent to Preach and Convert People by his Spirit , whereby they did Minister . 5. You might as well argue , that because Peter , James , John , and Paul , &c. were Apostles and Ministers of Christ , therefore we Edward Paye , and William Allcott , &c. are Ministers of Christ. 6. If Reading Christ's Commission to his Disciples , Mat. 28. Mar. 16. be sufficient authority for persons to turn Preachers , and then to tell People they hear Christ , because they read his said Commission , and presume to take it upon them without immediate Inspiration from him , why may not the Priests of England , &c. be his Ministers as well as you ? and why do you dissent from them ? Thus we see how you have proved your Call and Authority for what you pretend , even as well as any sensual Impostors , blind Guides and Deceivers may . On Rom. 10.6.7 , 8. E. P. saith , neither did the holy Apostle understand the Word here to be Christ , p. 22. Ans. How does he answer the Questions then which the Righteousness of Faith gives answer to ? Say not in thy Heart who shall ascend into Heaven , that is , to bring Christ from above ? Or who descend into the Deep , that is , to bring Christ again from the dead ? But what saith it ? The Word is near thee , &c. Is this all one as to say , the Scripture is near thee , even in thy Mouth and Heart ? Or was the Enquiry after the Scripture ? Who shall ascend or descend to fetch me the Scriptures ? No sure : Was not the antecedent Question of Christ ? And surely , none can savingly believe with the Heart , and in true Faith confess with the Mouth , that God hath raised Christ from the dead , so as to be saved , but by that Living Word of Faith in the Heart , which works a true and living Faith therein ; and therefore that Word of Faith , which begets and works this Faith , is Christ in Spirit , who is the Author of this Faith , otherwise the Questions who shall fetch Christ , &c. are not answered . For where , with the Heart , Man believeth unto Righteousness , and with the Mouth maketh Confession unto Salvation , Rom. 10.10 . he must needs first feel that Living Word of Faith in his Heart to work that Faith in him which produceth that Righteousness in Man which attends Salvation . 'T is true , that I did complain of E. P.'s injurious way of Writing , in accusing us with giving better or higher Titles to our own Books than to the Holy Scripture , instancing that of H. Smith's Book , where E. P. gave these words only for the Title , [ A True and Everlasting Rule ] being but the first words of the Title , and leaving out the next following in the same Sentence , viz. [ From God discovered . ] This I did deem very disingenuous . Now to extenuate and excuse the Offence , he asks me , Does those Words [ from God discovered ] added to The True and Everlasting Rule , diminish the Heighth of the Title ? p. 23. Answ. Yes , as the first Part was only ( by E. P. ) attributed to the Book , contrary to the Design of the Title and Matter contained in the Book , to which the Title had plain reference , as taken together entirely , that True and Everlasting Rule , from God discovered , being the Holy Spirit , the Eternal Light and Manifestation of Christ within , or what may be known of God being manifest in Man , plainly testified unto ( in the said Book ) as that True and Everlasting Rule , that was from God discovered ; so the Perversion and Abuse is plain . I think E. P. might have spared his Labour of giving the Reader a Breviate of what he Ironically calls , The Sweet Convincing Language the Quakers use to treat their Antagonists withal , unless his own Language had been sweeter , and more convincing than it is , and less Partial and Abusive in his Accusations , as to Matter of Fact ; wherein he is still general against the Quakers , as if they all treated their Antagonists of all Sorts with such sharp Language , as some have treated a few ; and how far they merited severe Treatment from our Friend , concerned he does not know . The Instances of the Quakers Treatment , E. P. gives , are upon T. Lawson , E. Burroughs , W. Penn and G. Whitehead , but chiefly on E. B. who , in Scorn , he terms Famous , p. 25. for using the Words Reprobate , Child of Darkness , Diviner , Antichrist , Beast , Blind , Pharisee , Hypocrite , Sottish , &c. These with other Words of like import he has pick'd up among Matters of Controversie ; which though the Language be sharp , 't is not unscriptural ; both Prophets of God and Ministers of Christ , ( yea Christ himself ) did sometime use the like against Wicked Men , who really were such in Spirit and Practice , especially against Envious Persecutors , Deceivers , Hypocrites , &c. In his accusing E. B. hereupon , with sentencing a Man to Wo and Condemnation for ever ( for asking some sober Questions ) p. 26. Herein he apparently wrongs E. B. for 't was not only for the Questions that he censured him ( though they were not sincere nor consistent clear Questions ) , but as knowing that Adversary to be in Strife and Envy , as he declares , f. 31 , 32. denounces severe Judgment ; 1. Absolutely upon the Envious Persecuting Spirit of the Beast in him . 2. Conditionally , upon the Envious Person , leaving him room for Repentance : Exhorting him , To Own and Obey the Light in his Conscience , that he might know that Obedience ( of Christ ) which reconciles to God ; and that by the same Light he might see his Evil Deeds , and be led up to Christ , from whence the Light comes ( thus E. Burroughs , f. 30 , 31 , 33. ) Whence it evidently appears , He did not absolutely condemn the Man for ever , but the Beast in him , the evil envious Spirit and Works of it in him ; and this can be no just Occasion for E. Paye or W. Allcott , to accuse the People called Quakers with having Affinity with the Muggletonians in their execrable Imprecations , Curses , &c. as they falsly declare in their Antichrist in Spirit , p. 9. For the Muggletonians have absolutely Cursed and Damned Persons for opposing them only ; allowing them no condition of Repentance , or of owning or obeying the Light of Christ in them to lead them up to him , as E. B. did ; neither does any Just Ground appear from his Words ( as justly distinguished before ) to deduce any such Rude Censorious and Reviling Question , as E. Paye and W. Allcott , &c. have done , in their Antichrist in Spirit , p. 34 , 35. Their Reviling ( yet mistaken ) Question follows . ☞ viz. Could the Devil himself have been more Vile , and prodigiously Arrogant , to take upon him to Determine a Man's endless Condition ? When it was not the Endless Condition of the Man , but of the Evil Spirit in him , the Beast in him , that E. B. absolutely excludes from God for ever ; but conditionally declares Judgment upon the envius Man , warning him , To own and obey the Light of Christ in his Conscience ; that so he might find Repentance , otherwise Destruction would be his Portion . This Distinction I observe , and clearly find in E. B's said Answer to Bennit : The Matter justly considered is , much like as if a Son of Thunder ( stirred up in Zeal , for Truth ) should severely Judge and Condemn the Evil Lying Envious Spirit of the Beast and false Prophet in E. P. and his Abettors , and unto that Lying Spirit in them , declare , viz. Thou Envious Lying Persecuting Beast , thou Foul Wicked Spirit , thou Malicious Devil and Father of Lyes and Lyars . thou Author of all Mischief and Discord , thou Troubler of the Creation , thou Reproacher of God's Heritage , thou that hast opened thy Mouth in Blasphemy against God , his Tabernacle , and them that dwell in Heaven ; thou art utterly cast down and condemned for ever , and to the Pit thou must return , &c. And you , in whom this Lying Envious Spirit has so violently appeared against the People of God , to Defame and Reproach them and their Christian Profession : You and your Lyes and Perversions are condemned with the Light of Truth , and you 'll come to Shame and Contempt for the same , and utterly perish , if you do not repent ( this is more than a Supposition , 't is a real Warning to you ) the Lake , which is the Second Death , is , and will be the Portion of all Lyars ; and therefore I exhort you , in love to your poor Souls , Return , Own and Obey the Light of Christ in your Consciences , that will shew you your Evil Deeds , your Hypocrisies , your Falshood and Envy , and lead you to repent of the same , that you may find Mercy and Pardon in Christ , if your Day be not over ; the Spirit of Truth , the Saints Comforter is the World's Reprover , and Judge also of the Prince thereof . Christ's Ministers , who were led by this Spirit , did not wrestle against Flesh and Blood , but against Principalities and Powers , and Rulers of the Darkness of the World , against Spiritual Wickedness in High Places , Eph. 6. These testified against Evil Spirits and Wickedness it self , both in Root and Branches . The great Degeneracy hath been such in the World , that a Generation of Men have turned Beasts ; the Persecuting Envious Spirit of the Beast has made them Beasts , Bulls , Dogs , Foxes , Swine , Wolves , Devourers , Destroyers of others ; the Old Serpent has made them Serpents , Vipers , Children of the Devil , &c. These being Characters in Scripture put upon Wicked Men : And it is no hard Matter to shew E. P. and his Brethren as severe Judgment and sharp Language given in Scripture to Envious Wicked Persons as E. Burroughs gave to his Envious Antagonist before-mentioned , and which I am persuaded is as justly applicable to our present Malicious Adversaries , as to those to whom first directed by the Spirit of true Judgment , in the Servants of God and Christ , as Ps. 52. ( observe E. P. &c. ) 1. Thy Tongue deviseth Mischief , like a sharp Razor working deceitfully , thou lovest Evil more than Good , and Lying rather than to speak Righteousness , Selah . Thou lovest all devouring Words , O thou Deceitful Tongue ; God shall likewise destroy thee for ever : He shall take thee away , and pluck thee out of thy Dwelling place , and root thee out of the Land of the Living , Selah . v. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. 2. And Isa. 56.10 . His Watchmen are blind , they are all ignorant , they are all dumb Dogs , &c. v. 11. Yea they are greedy Dogs which can never have enough ; they are Shepherds that cannot understand , they all look to their own way , every one for his gain from his Quarter [ as the Covetous Persecuting Priests used to do ; and 't is well if some of you be clear thereof . ] And , 3. Ye Serpents , ye Generation of Vipers , how can ye escape the Damnation of Hell ? Matt. 23.33 . O Generation of Vipers , who hath warned you to flee from the Wrath to come ? Matt. 3.7 . 4. Read also the Epistle of Jude , v. 10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not , but what they know naturally as Bruit Beasts , in those things they corrupt themselves . 11. Wo unto them for they have gone in the way of Cain , &c. 12. These are Spots in your Feasts of Charity , &c. 13. Raging Waves of the Sea foaming out their own Shame , wandring Stars , to whom he is reserved , the Blackness of Darkness for ever . Many other Instances might be given of the Prophets , Christ , his Servants and Ministers , giving severe Judgment against the Wicked . And what think you now , do not these Instances contain as much Sharpness of Language and Judgment ( if not rather more ) as either the said E. B. or any of our Friends have given their Envious Adversaries ; and yet 't were not warrantable to compare them to the Muggletonians , much less to the Devil's Vileness or prodigious Arrogancy . The Lord open these Men's Eyes , and soften their hard Hearts , and make them more charitable , if it may yet stand with his good Pleasure . And I perceiving the very same Bitter Envious Spirit of Persecution in these present Adversaries Pamphlet , styled , Antichrist in Spirit , I could do no less than tell them of their Hypocrisy , Envy and Bitterness , their Turbulent Persecuting Lying Spirit , their Gross Lyes and Falshoods , &c. for which I am not condemned of the Lord , nor conscious to my self of Wrong done them , for these Evils are apparent in them , but really believe the Just God will Rebuke and Judge them , and plead our Innocency . And seeing Ed. Paye upbraids us with the Sweet Convincing Language of the Quakers , I will not so unequally retaliate , and say , I shall give the Reader a Breviate of the Sweet Convincing Language the Anabaptists use to treat their Antagonists withal : But ( to speak in his Terms ) of the Sweet Convincing Language which Edw. Paye and his Brethren , Will. Allcott and H. Loader , have treated the People , commonly called Quakers , withal , in their said Pamphlet , Antichrist in Spirit , viz. Quakerism a great Delusion , their Deceit , their pretended Faith proved a Counterfeit ( Title ) their Profession a Labyrinth of Confusion , a Compound of Heresies , corrupt Notions , Equivocal Reserves , Proud Boastings , the Pride and Ignorance of these Impostors , these deluded Impostors , the Quakers , great Enemies to and Contemners of Holy Scriptures . The Quakers dream , This Generation of Impostors the Quakers , who say , Behold he ( Christ ) is within thee , to deceive the Hearts of the Simple ; Horrid Blasphemy . They labour to keep a Christian-Mask over their Anti-Christian Face ; a Bundle of Blasphemy . Could the Devil himself have been more Vile . Why should these Impostors talk of the Blood of Christ ? their Pofession but a Painted and Deceitful Flourish . The Quakers Grand Deluders ; Blasphemous Absurdities . By no means their Word must be taken ; blasphemous Confidence . The Title on each Page is , [ Quakerism a great Delusion ] ; ( above 70. times over ) and , Turn to the Light within , saith the Quaker , ( 7. times over in three Pages , repeated in Derision , and set in Opposition to Christ's Doctrine , &c. ) The Spirit of Delusion and gross Ignorance in the Quakers . These Clouds of Popish Darkness . These Men care not for the Scriptures , except it be to abuse them . A Spirit of Delusion . Their impertinent Evasions and manifold Corruptions of the Scriptures . The Quakers are greatly deluded . What Horrid Contradictions and gross . Absurdities attend this Spirit of Delusion . The Quakers vainly feed themselves with Wind , in Imagining that they have the Holy Spirit who rebel against Christ , contemn his Blood , despise his Ordinances , &c. With much more such like Treatment in their said Pamphlet , in pages 8 , 16 , 18 , 20 , 24 , 25 , 28 , 29 , 34 , 35 , 37 , 39 , 40 , 43 , 46 , 54 , 55 , 56 , 58 , 62 , 64 , 69 , 70 , 71 , 75 , 76. which as 't is unmerited , so it is utterly denyed by us . Take a View farther of some of Edw. Pay's Sweet Language , he treats us withal , to convince us , in his Second Pamphlet , styled , Railings and Slanders detected , viz. The Folly and Heresies of the Quakers . Quakerism a great Delusion , ( in the Title . ) Slanderous confused Raileries . Ill-shapen Cub . Your Defects in Truth and Reason . Gross and abominable Errors . All their Authors Books full of Railings and Blasphemy , that they have formerly called it a Doctrine of Devils ; viz. Justification by Christ's Works , Righteousness and Merits ( which is an abominable Falshood ) . I have seen them Quake , and Foam at the Mouth . Your Corrupt Notions and Deceivable Gestures . Suppose you formerly used to Quake , Tremble , Roar , Swell , Foam , &c. G. W. an old Stickler for Quakerism . Mr. J. Faldoe saith , How generally were their Meetings either Silent or taken up with sudden and violent Eruptions of dismal Howlings and horrid Ravings , Shaking and Foaming at the Mouth , &c. G. W. is so daringly Confident ; his Impertinent and Absurd Evasions . This small Bundle of Railery , written by G. W. Like raging Bears . Their Ragings . The confused Profession of Faith that G. W. makes , p. 1 , 2 , 6 , 7 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 15 , 22 , 24 , 27 , 28 , 34. I am not willing to trouble the Reader in this Place with more of E. P's sweet Treatment , or rather his sowre scurrilous Contemning , and undeserved Detractions ; he had better have let what he calls the Quakers Sweet Convincing Language alone , than to have reflected so scornfully upon us , unless his own had been sweeter than 't is , and more Convincing and obliging ; though I confess this his latter Pamphlet is not quite so bad as the other . An Examination of those Exceptions and Passages which Edward Paye has set opposite , as the Quakers Contradictions of their Profession of Faith , in his said Pamphlet , styled , Railings and Slanders detected . Excep . SMith's Primmer , p. 9. They that are false Ministers preach Christ without , and bid People believe in him as he is in Heaven above : p. 29. and not within also , nor in Peoples Hearts ; they preach Christ without and in Heaven only , excluding him Men's Hearts , as William Smith's Book shews that to be his Intention . Excep . Your Carnal Christ. Who so wrote ? and on what occasion ? We know not : But suppose if any Quaker did , he struck at some Carnal Imaginations about Christ ; for the true Christ of God could not be intended , for he is a Spiritual , Divine and Heavenly Christ. Exc. Your imagined God beyond the Stars . Who hath so writ ? I know not , nor on what occasion ; but if any among us did , the Intent was this , viz. That the True God is not such a God as you or some Men imagine ; he is not an imagined God , limited or circumscribed only beyond the Stars , but is also on this Side the Stars , a Real , True , Infinite , and Omnipresent God , both in the highest Heavens and lowest Hearts . 'T is true , I did question some Socinians and Baptists , their defining Christ , under the Terms of a Personal Being , a Human Body , and consisting of a Human Body , asking them what they meant by Human Body in Heaven ? And if Human Body be not an Earthly Body ? Appendix to Reason against Railing , printed in 1673. p. 21 , 22. This is impertinently alledged against me by E. P. p. 30. whilst he unfairly passeth by and leaves out what I Grant. Ibid. Reas. aganist R. p. 23. If by Personal Being he means a Body distinct from ours , I believe he hath a Spiritual Glorious Body , distinct from all these Earthly Sublunary Bodies . If by Personal Being he means the Manhood of Christ , our confessing the Man Christ as Mediator is sufficiently evinced . To the Question then put , Is the Heavens that must retain him only the Hearts of Men ? My Answer was , It is whom the Heaven must receive , Act. 3.21 . And this is above , and larger than the Hearts of Men. Reas. against Rail . p. 24. Excep . G. F's Great Mystery , p. 71. Christ's Nature is not Human which is Earthly ; and yet they profess to believe the Humanity of Christ. 'T is evident by Human , in this Place , he understands Earthly ; and therefore esteems it not properly applicable to the Heavenly Man Christ , or his Divine Nature . We may believe the Manhood or Humanity of this Heavenly Man , and yet not his Nature to be Earthly , as the first Adam's was . G.F. in the very same Place alledg'd , confesseth , That we do not deny Christ , according to the Flesh , to be of Abraham , Gr. Myst. p. 71. Except . Against G. F. again ; Bunion is deceived , who saith , God is distinct from the Saints . By the Words , [ Distinct from ] here ( if not mis-printed ) he means Divided or Separate from , as many in common Acceptation understand them ; for though God and his Saints be different or distinct Beings , yet not separate or divided one from another . Excep . See Mr. Hayworth's Animadversions , p. 11. One W. Bates a Quaker , said more than once , That what Christ took of the Virgin had now no Being , p. 30 , 31. I know not how to credit this Story , which E. P. is so credulous of , but rather think 't was a Mistake or Misunderstanding in the Hearers ; for such Words are disowned by us , and therefore not justly to be imputed to us . Excep . p. 31. Mr. Penn's Justification is not by the Imputation of another's Righteousness , but from the actual Performance and Keeping God's Righteous Laws . Sandy Found . p. 25. This is not fairly cited ; for the Scripture , Ezek. 18.20 , 26 , 27 , 28. from whence W. P. argues is left out , and so are the Words , or Condemnation , after Justification , and the Word Laws added , instead of Statutes or Commandments : Besides , his Argument is mistaken , for it is not to oppose Salvation or Justification by Jesus Christ his Righteousness , Merits and Works , for there cannot be any true actual Performance or keeping of God's Commandments , by any Person whatsoever , without Christ , or without his Righteousness and Work being partaken of . And did not the Lord say , He that hath walked in my statutes , and hath kept my judgments , to deal truly , he is just , he shall surely live , Ezek. 18.9 . And if the wicked will return from all his sins , that he hath committed , and keep all my statutes , and do that which is lawful and right , he shall surely live , and shall not dye , v. 21. For as the real Righteousness of another belongs not to that Person that 's wholly Unrighteous , but the Righteousness of the Righteous shall be upon him only that 's truly the Righteous Person , so Christ's Righteousness cannot truly be reckon'd theirs , that have none of It wrought in them , but are wholly Unsanctified and Polluted , for then 't is his and not theirs . But who are made Just or Righteous by Christ Jesus ? Both he and his Righteousness is theirs so far as they are made Partakers thereof . Without Christ we can do nothing ; 't is he that has purchased us to God ; 't is he that works all our Works in us ; 't is he that enables us truly to obey and follow him ; and 't is our Duty to obey him , and to keep his Commandments : So that both the Merit of our Redemption and our Sufficiency for true Obedience is Christ's , and of and in him , and not of our selves . Excep . p. 31. E. B's Works , p. 33. God doth not accept any , where there 's any Failing , or who do not fulfil the Law , and answer every Demand of Justice . Here E. B.'s next foregoing words are left out , viz. [ those that love God , keep his Commandments , and they are not grievous ] . Whence it follows , that they that do not keep his Commandments , do not love him : The Question is , Whether God accepts them that do not love him ? 'T is true , the words , [ or who do not fulfil the Law , and answer every demand of Justice ] seem partly to relate to a state under the Law , according to James 2.10 , 11. Gal. 3.10 . Heb. 2.2 . Rom. 2.13 . and partly to that sincere Obedience required under the Gospel , and 't is certain God accepts none in any disobedience ; neither the Law nor the Gospel allows of sinning against God or Christ. [ See Luke 12.47 . Joh. 14.21 . 1 Cor. 7.19 . 2 Cor. 10.6 . Joh. 10.14 . 2 Thess. 1.8 . 1 Joh. 3.6 , 8. 2 Joh. 9. ] But every Disobedience is to be repented of . Except . Pag. 32. Truth 's Defence , p. 101. They say , That it is dangerous for Ignorant People to read them , ( i. e. the Scriptures ) . That is , such Ignorant People as pervert them to their own destruction ; that must needs be dangerous , yet profitable to the Man of God , and those who are guided by his Spirit to the true understanding of them ( the Book quoted more fully clears it self ) . Christ by his Divine Light and Spirit is the Only Rule and Guide of God's People , both in the knowledge of his Divine Will , and of the Holy Scriptures . Christ is the Only Way and Means of Mens coming to walk with God , and the Only Rule of Faith and Practice . Christ , who is the Author of living Faith , must needs be the Only or Chief Guide , Way and Rule unto his true Spiritual Followers . And this answers most of p. 32 , 33. Except . p. 33. See what my Antagonist saith , Dipper plung'd , p. 13. and then judge , If the Scriptures be No Rule , yea , if it be Idolatry to call the Bible A Means , as G. W. expresly saith . ] Obs. I am very unfairly cited and wrong'd in both these , and 't is notoriously false , to say G. W. expresly saith either that the Scriptures are No Rule , or that 't is Idolatry to call the Bible A Means ; for in the very place quoted , my words expresly are these , viz. 1. By what Rule must we believe that the Scriptures are the Only Rule of Faith and Practice , while they no where do call themselves so ? 2. To Tho. Hicks's , saying that the Bible is The Means of our knowing God , Dial. p. 41. My Answer was , He Idolatrously sets up the Bible in the place of Christ , for no Man knows the Father , but the Son , and he to whom the Son reveals him , Matth. 11.27 . Now pray observe further . 1. My not granting the Scriptures to be the Only Rule , implicitly grants them to be a Rule , or some Rule , my Question being on the Word [ Only ] in this case . 2. By my not assenting that the Bible ( or Books ) are the Means of our knowing God , I do not therefore conclude , that the Divine Doctrin therein contain'd may be no means of our knowing God ; for in Christ's hand , and by his opening it to us , and our understandings therein , it may be and is A Means of Divine knowledge to us , Christ being the Way and the Means original of Divine and Saving-Knowledge . Obj. against G. W. again , viz. Who also affirmeth , that Faith grounded on the Scriptures is but an empty implicit Faith , and bespeaks such persons void of the knowledge of God and Christ and Salvation , and that such Men walk by their own Fancies and Imaginations . Quoting [ Christ ascended , p. 11. ] Observ. This Baptist has again apparently miscited and wrong'd my Answer ; 't was none of my affirmation , or words , That Faith grounded on the Scripture , is but an empty implicit Faith , &c. I affirm they are not my words , but E. P.'s fallacious abuse put upon me : The Case was this , viz. John Newman , in his Book , stiled , The Light within , &c. having affirm'd , p. 45. That without the Scriptures to be the Rule , we know not that there is any God or Christ or Salvation , &c. all Men are left in the dark , and no man knoweth how to enjoy Life Eternal , neither do we know what God counteth unclean , and what holy ; without the Scriptures we know not any Promise , &c. — It leaves men to walk by Fancy and Imaginations . Thus far he : My Answer was , Poor Men ! You have shewn your selves sufficiently herein , and what an empty implicit Faith you are in , and how void both of the Knowledge of God , Christ and Salvation you are , and how yet in your sins , having denied Christ and his Light within to be your Rule , Way , and Foundation , as he is to his Followers : And so you are walking by your Fancies and Imaginations , who set the Scriptures in the place of Christ , as your only and absolute Rule and Ground of your Faith and Knowledge , &c. So that I did not own nor grant , that their Faith was really grounded on the Scriptures herein , but on their own unscriptural Fancies and Imaginations , ( vid. Christ ascend . p. 12. ) contrary to Scripture-Testimony of Christ. And I further oppose their Ignorance of God and Christ thus , viz. And then what a sad Sentence of no less than condemnation doth this pass upon all People and Nations , who have not the Scriptures , as being all void of knowledge , that there is either God , Christ , Salvation , Good or Evil ( without the Scriptures ) ; whereas there is a Living Evidence , throughout the Creation or Works of God therein of the Eternal Power or Maker thereof . See Ps. 19. Rom. 1. Job 12. and many do know and have known these things written of ( which concern Salvation ) by the Light of God and Christ in them that never could read , nor had the Scriptures outwardly , as those Gentiles which had not the Law , yet did those things contained in it , and shewed the Effects of the Law written in their Hearts , Rom. 2. Tho' the Scriptures are profitable to the Man of God who hath them , being led by his Spirit , which opens them . Christ ascend , p. 11 , 12. And now , E. P. to prove thy Brethren , W. Allcot , and H. Loader's , false Charge , That the Quakers contemn and vilifie the Holy Scriptures , in their Epistles , and thy own horrid Slanders also ; that they are great Enemies to , and Contemners of Holy Scriptures , p. 20. of thy Antichrist in Spirit . Thou summest up thy Argument with divers If 's , ( but assumest no Assumption pursuant to thy general Charge ) as in thy 33 and 34 Pages of thy Railings and Slanders detected , thus , viz. Now if the Scriptures be a dead carnal Letter , Ink , and Paper , saith Parnel : If they are , the Precepts and Traditions of Men , saith Naylor , in his Love to the Lost. If they are no better than an old Almanack , as Holbrow said , Hick 's Dial. p. 29. If to say an Ass hath as much Authority essentially in himself to teach and rebuke , as the Scriptures , &c. be not to Contemn and Vilifie them , I am yet to seek what is . Ans. The Assumption or Minor Proposition intended ( i. e. but the Quakers say all these of the Holy Scriptures ) is here wanting , and the Argument is lame and fallacious , as well as falsly stated also in the first Proposition , being not in the terms of the Charge . For 1 st , The Charge is general against the Quakers , That they are great Enemies to and Contemners of the Holy Scriptures , yet the word [ Holy ] not mentioned in the particular Instances fallaciously alledged for proof , though it be in the general Charge . 2. If some of the Instances were true , yet to charge them upon the People called Quakers in general , is an absurd and unjust way of arguing , a particulare ad universale , and no better than to argue thus , If Edw. Paye , ( the Baptist ) has raked up and charged divers of Hicks's Lies and Forgeries upon the Quakers , and added many more of his own to them , then the Baptists are all Forgers : But Edw. Paye hath so done , ( is apparent ) Ergo , They may justly deny the Major , though the Assumption ( or Charge ) alone stands good , being plentifully proved against E. Paye in particular . 3. Neither are the particular Instances true in fact ; the Holy Scriptures are not a dead Letter in the Quakers esteem , tho' none of us ascribe Holiness to Ink and Paper or the dead Characters , but to the living Divine Precepts and Doctrine therein contained ; nor did we ever think the Holy Scriptures to be but the Precepts and Traditions of Men ; or ( much less ) no better than an Old Almanack , as the People called Quakers are most unjustly accused by these Adversaries , Antichrist in Spirit , p. 18. And 't is far from J. N. or any of us either , to say or think , that an Ass hath as much Authority essentially in himself to teach and rebuke , as the Holy Scriptures . For shame , E. P. retract and leave off such foul , gross and horrid Lies and Reproaches against the People called Quakers . To prove , that we name ( or call ) the Holy Scriptures , the Precepts and Traditions of Men , ( charged against the Quakers in general ) Antichrist in Spirit , p. 18. Thou , E. P. hast repeated this again in thy Railings , p. 33. and quotest James Nayler's Love to the Lost for it , but not in what Page ; and therefore I have been at the pains to view over that Book , to see if I could find any such words , but find nothing like them , but the contrary ; namely , 1 st , That the words of the Scripture were given forth from the Light , which he calls the Eternal Light , Love to the Lost , p. 4 , & 20 , 21. And that the Ministers of Christ , who have the Word , who are begotten by the Word , through such came the Scriptures , which came not by the Will of Man , but by the Spirit , and so are of no private Interpretation , Love to the Lost , p. 73. which Spirit is the Eternal Spirit , the Spirit of Light and Truth , p. 13 , 18. Thus J. N. All which is far enough from calling or esteeming the Holy Scriptures but the Precepts and Traditions of Men , as most unjustly is charged upon the Quakers , by E. P. and consequently by his approvers , William Allcott , and Henry Loader , who had need to retract this and the rest of their Charges , which are notoriously false in fact . And E. P. thou hast no cause to boast or insult over us , touching the Writings and Sayings of our ancient Authors , which thou hast so foully wrong'd and perverted ; and when thou hast made Lies upon them , then falsly to say , they directly contradict the Quakers new Faith , when by deceitful Perversions , false Citations , base and falacious Forgeries , thou hast attempted such Contradiction , as thy self and abettors may for ever be ashamed of , and hast great cause to renounce and explode the same , rather than we our ancient Friends Writings . And to evince thy contempt and scorn , thou shalt take no notice at all of the confused Profession of Faith that G. W. makes , p. 34. No , thou art too big , too great , too high in thy own proud Conceit , to take notice of what such a mean contemptible person as G.W. or any of us testifies of our Belief , how sincere soever . But I must tell thee , if thou goest on in this , thy wicked Course of Defaming and Scandalizing us , I hope we shall take further notice of thee and thy base malicious Work , to thy own and abettors perpetual shame , to keep your Infamy in remembrance ; and when we have fully cleared our Consciences , I doubt not but the Righteous Judge of all ( whose People thou hast evilly entreated and reproach'd ) will meet with thee , and rebuke thy Envious Spirit . To extenuate thy notorious Lie and Forgery against Geo. Fox , of taking the Name of the Eternal Judge of quick and dead to himself , quoting p. 6 , 7. of Saul's Errand . Now thou art fain to beg the Question , viz. Why may not G. F. take the Name to himself , as well as approve of those blasphemous Titles given him by Jos. Coal , in his Letters from Barbadoes ? p. 35. cited in Antichrist in Spirit , p. 43 , 44. Ans. The Charge here ( of approving and giving blasphemous Titles ) is very high against two persons deceased , who ( we believe ) ended their days in peace ; and my present Answer is , 1 st , I have cause to question , whether the said Letter be truly and intirely copied or cited from the Original , by thee E. P. 2 dly , I do not believe 't is an intire Copy . 3 dly , Whence hadst thou thy Copy and Credit thereof ? And what Persons ( that are no Parties nor Adversaries to us ) will attest thine to be true and an intire Copy , according to Jo. Cole's original Letter ? 4 thly , If thou canst not produce the Original , then what validity is thy Charge of , if the Credit of all the Copies thou canst produce , be called in question , for want of impartial Witnesses , or the Original to compare them with ? For I do really question the truth of thine ; and when thou givest an unquestionable Copy thereof , probably I may give a further Answer ; for I doubt not but I can clear that honest Man , Jos. Cole , from giving any blasphemous Titles , and that from his own printed Testimonies , and G. F. also from receiving ; by his known publick Christian Profession unto Christ Jesus , both as God and Man , according to the Holy Scriptures . And where and when did G. F. say in a Meeting , I have power to bind and to loose whom I please ? p. 36. What Meeting , and who are Witnesses of this Story ? I do not believe it . To prove E. P.'s false Charge , That they ( i. e. the Quakers ) say , that Christ hath no Body but his Church , Antichrist in Spirit , p. 29. ( This being shewn not to be the Quakers Saying , but something like it , objected against One Person , by some persecuting Priests , as in Saul's Errand , p. 2. ) Now E. P. again is fain to beg the Question and shuffle , viz. And why may not G. F. deny Christ to have a personal Body , besides or distinct from his Church , as well as G. Whitehead ? Dip. pl. p. 13. Ans. I am the Person here falsly accused again , they are none of my words , or negation , nor so much as mention'd in the place quoted in Dipper plung'd , p. 13. but the terms [ God-man , a person without thee ] question'd as not Scripture-Language , answered before ; which was not on the Question , Whether Christ hath a Body distinct from his Church ? Also answer'd presently . Whereas E. P. objects against what I said in answer to Tho. Jenner's saying , Christ sitteth at the right-hand of God in Heaven with a Natural Body . And accusing us with saying , Christ hath but one Body . E. P. should have been so ingenuous as to have recited my whole Answer in that case , in our Apology , p. 33. quoted by him , p. 37. and that will clear me from his impertinent Objection against the words , viz. They should produce Scripture , that say Christ hath two Bodies . ( Here E. P. leaves out ) [ a Natural and a Spiritual ] which is very unfairly done . And in the Question , Where doth the Scripture say , that Christ's glorified Body in Heaven is of Human Nature ? After [ Is ] he leaves out [ a Natural Body ] and [ as his terms are ] whereby I grant , that Christ hath a Spiritual Glorious Body of his own . Also E. P. takes no notice of my Explication in these words , viz. If T. Jenner supposeth , that we intend the Natural Bodies of Men to be the Body of Christ , without distinguishing between them , he is mistaken , for the Natural Body and Spiritual Body are two . — And if Christ's Body in Heaven be Natural , whose Body is it that is Spiritual , Glorious , & c ? is it Christ's , yea , or nay ? And I further add in my Answer , Apol. p. 34. If so be Christ's Body in Heaven be Natural , then where the Apostle said he shall change the Body of our lowness , that it may be fashion'd like unto his glorious Body , Phil. 3. This were all one , in Jenner's sense , as to say he shall change and fashion our Body ( which is Natural ) like unto his Natural Body , &c. By all which I grant Christ's own glorious Body in Heaven distinct from those natural Bodies of Men on Earth ; though I must own a Spiritual Vnion or Oneness between that and his Church , so as his Body in its Fulness is but One Body . And in my Appendix to reason against Railing , p. 23. I plainly confess I believe he hath a Spiritual glorious Body , distinct from all these earthly sublunary Bodies . — and that the Heaven , that must receive him , is above and larger than the Hearts of Men , Append. p. 24. To E. P.'s repeating , that J. Parnell calls Water-Baptism , a formal Imitation and Invention of Men ; and now addeth , that He ( J. P. ) saith so , p. 37. whereas it was plainly shewn him , that he did speak this of Sprinkling Infants , which E. P. calls Baptism ; and yet saith , the Name Anabaptists belongs not to them , p. 13. And why so ? If Sprinkling Infants be Baptism , are you not Anabaptists , when you Re-baptize them , or Baptize them again ? and yet I did not call you Anabaptists on that score , nor in derision , as is wrongfully suggested , p. 12. but only for distinction-sake , my words at first being [ the People commonly called Anabaptists , ] p. 1 ▪ 'T is far from me to design any derision , or to put any ridicule upon the People so called from E. Paye's particular abuses ; for I hope as some of them are more honest than himself , so many of them will be ashamed of his malicious Pamphlets , tho' he pretends the Approbation of several since , p. 38. which we have little cause to credit , without their own testimony ; for some eminent among that People , have declared their dislike of his work already . And it will be far more for their credit and reputation , to stop him from his scribling to defame others , than to suffer him to persist therein . And as to his Challenging any to charge and prove against him any thing unbecoming a Man and a Christian , respecting either Life or Principles , Human Frailties excepted , p. 38. I ask him , if to bear false witness against his Neighbours , to belie , slander and defame them , to take up reproaches against them , to pervert and corrupt their words , to gather up , credit and publish their Adversaries malicious Defamations against them , ( all which E. P. is proved notoriously guilty of ) be either becoming a Man or a Christian ? or be to do as he would be done unto ? ( What an easie matter is it for a wicked person to write malicious Pamphlets at that rate ? ) Or must these Enormities be reputed only as Human Frailties ? Will his Religion and Conscience allow him to slander , to lie , to defame others , and yet for all that to be a moral Man and good Christian , and Minister to others ? I am sure the just God will not so esteem him nor any one else in such a state . Upon a serious View and Observation of the Method which he E. Paye , &c. has taken up against the People commonly call'd Quakers , I find it thus , 1. To quote and cite divers of their Adversaries Invectives against them . 2. To mis-cite and abuse some of their own Authors Books and Writings against them , sometimes leaving out the most emphatical Expressions in the middle , and sometimes in the end of a Sentence , and many times the most explanatory part of their Answers , thereby greatly altering , perverting and corrupting matters , contrary both to the Authors own Words and Expressions . 3. To invent and forge notorious falshoods , contrary to our express Christian Profession and Perswasion . 4. From such indirect and unjust Premises , to draw his own perverse and evil Consequences against the People called Quakers in general , to render them and their whole Society and Profession as odious and obnoxious as he can . 5. Divers of his Authors , to whom he has given credit , and whose odious defamations he has raked up against us , were persecuting Priests , and others of party with them , who were as much enemies to the Baptists as to us , and long since answered and refuted . 6. He is so credulous , as he seems to take all for granted that such Adversaries have maliciously writ against us ; but in many cases takes no notice of our Answers to them ; and where he doth , he is very subject to pervert , mince , curtailize and abuse them as before . Now I am perswaded the Ministers and People of the baptized Societies , would not be thus served after such injurious Methods . And to me , and divers others , 't is a wonder that those Ministers and Elders of that Society who appear more discreet and judicious ( than this injurious Adversary , E. P. ) do not give a severe check to him , and put a stop to his perverse and contentious Scribling , ( tending to Strife , and to aggravate Divisions , and cause Animosities among Neighbours , and to make Breaches wider among People ) and rather seek Peace , Mutual Love and Charity among all ; for I must tell them , these crooked Methods which E. P. takes will be no small disrepute and disparagement to them that are of the same Society with him , or that own him as a Brother or Minister among them . And since in conclusion of his last , he has given us a Threat , ( as if he would frighten us ) That if he be foolishly provoked , we may it is like have a quarterly Packet , to keep our Fame in remembrance . And truly if he will be so foolish , as to be foolishly provoked , or to make a foolish Provocation the ground of his Packets or Pamphlets against us , we shall have little cause to be affrighted or deterred by his Threat from making our Just Defence ; and now , since he has so loudly alarum'd us , he has given us occasion to watch him narrowly and warily , really believing he 'l make no great earnings of such his undertaking , nor advantage of his atchievements , but bring Infamy upon himself , and an unnecessary Charge upon others , and be no small Disparagement to his own Society . I have traversed the Controversies long since , and I bless God , that he has made me a Witness for his Truth and for Christianity in Life and Power ( even from my Youth upward ) against Deceit , Envy and Hypocrisie , that I have seen in these our Adversaries and Opposers ; what personal Detractions or Reflections I meet withal , I value not , my Innocence and Christian Conversation , being well known to many and my inward Peace with the Lord in my own Conscience ; but wherein I find the Truth abused , and God's Heritage reproached , I am constrained in God's holy Fear and Zeal to stand up for Truth , and in its Vindication , against its Adversaries and Gainsayers and their Contradictions , and hope ever shall , so long as the Lord gives Life and Ability . And I humbly thank the Lord my God , who hath hitherto helped and supported me , and many more , in his Work and Service , and in Christian Love and Good-will towards all Men. G. Whitehead . The Conclusion . I Have hitherto been mostly on the Defensive Part , to remove these Adversaries Calumnies and Misrepresentations of our Principles , much I have to except against divers of their Unsound Doctrines , particularly about the great stress they lay on their Water-Baptism , and what they call The Lord's Supper ; 't is easy to make it appear that they exactly run parallel with the Rhemists , in the manner of their defending ther Water-Baptism , and the great Weight they place upon it , contrary to Scripture , and the Doctrine of the Ancient Protestants . Please to take a View of some of these Baptists Doctrines , and some brief Observations and Questions upon them , as followeth . 1. That by Baptism ( i. e. Water-Baptism ) we must put on Christ , and so become Members of his Mystical Body , Heirs of the Promise of the Holy Spirit , &c. Antichrist in Spirit , p. 69. Observ. This is Popish Doctrine , and contrary-to the Apostle's ; See 1 Cor. 12 13. 2. That the highest Attainments or greatest Measures of the Holy Spirit , do but fit Men for Gospel Ordinances , p. 64. Whereof their Water-Baptism is rendred a Sacred or Holy one , p. 57 , 63. Qu. Where doth the Scriptures say , That the highest Attainments of the Holy Spirit do but fit Men for Water-Baptism ? as if that were higher than those Attainments , or the Spirit Inferior to the Element of Water . 3. But in contradiction to themselves herein , they tell us , That Water-Baptism is the initiating and ingrafting Ordinance , whereby the Penitent Believer puts on Christ , p. 68. Obs. For which they quote and misapply Gal. 3.27 . which shews , That it is by Faith in Christ Jesus that they were Children of God , being baptized into Christ , v. 26 , 27. and Rom. 11.19 , 20 , 23. 4. That there is but one Baptism in a full and proper Sense , and that is that of Water , in which the Penitent Believer is Buried , for which they unduly quote Coll. 2.12 . Rom. 6.4 . and on Eph. 4.5 . say , To be Baptized with Water is the one Baptism . Pa. 66 , 67. Obs. This appears directly Popish Doctrine , and accordingly held by the Rhemists , contrary to the Protestants , and wholy excludes Christ's Baptism by the Holy Spirit . 5. 1 Pet. 3.21 . Applyed to Water-Baptism , as the Baptism that doth now save us , the End whereof is the Answer of a good Conscience towards God. p. 67. Obs. If Water-Baptism be the one-saving Baptism , then out of the Baptist's-Church there is no Salvation : This is not only Popish but contrary to that very Scripture , 1 Pet. 3.2 . that Saving Baptism being not the putting away the Filth of the Flesh , &c. 6. That our saying , Water-Baptism was a Figure of the Spiritual , is an apparent Falshood , p. 68. Ob. No , 't is an apparent Truth , John's Baptism was a Figure of Christ's Saving Spiritual Baptism and Washing of Regeneration ; See Matth. 3.11 . Mar. 1.8 . Luke 3.16 . Joh. 1.26 , 27. Tit. 3.5 , 6. 7. That Christ is not come , because that Kingdom is not come that Christ speaks of * ; I will not henceforth drink of the fruit of the Vine , 'till I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom , Matt. 26.29 . Luke 22.18 . p. 73. compared with p. 74. In that Kingdom they neither marry nor are given in marriage ; neither can they dye any more , Luk. 20.35 , 36. Qu. How then shall they drink new Wine with Christ in that World to come , and in that State wherein they shall be equal with the Angels of God in Heaven , suppose ye ? And as neither can they dye any more , so neither shall they Hunger nor Thirst any more , Rev. 7.16 . Isaiah 49.10 . What occasion for New Wine then ? 8. That his Disciples upon Earth are to Break and Eat Bread , and Drink of the Fruit of the Vine till he come , to wit , in a Personal , Glorious and Visible manner , Phil. 3 . 2● . — Who shall change our vile Bodies , and make them like his own glorious Body , at Christ's second personal coming visible in his Body of Flesh and Bones , p. 73 , 74. Qu. And shall those glorious Bodies then have occasion to drink New Wine with Christ , in his Father's Kingdom , do you think ? or are you not rather too Carnal in your Expectations , in this Matter , whilst you mean literally ? and then do you not delay and put off the Spiritual Eating and Drinking with Christ ( Rev. 3.20 . Luke 22.30 . ) in his Spiritual Kingdom ? 9. No Christians can allow them ( i.e. the Quakers ) that Christ is come the second Time , p. 74. Obs. Yes , true Christians can allow it , tho' these Baptists cannot , wherein they contradict the true Believers Expectation and Experience of Salvation by Christ's coming , Heb. 9.28 . Tit. 2.13.14 . 10. That the Quakers say they are perfect , viz. without Sin [ this is not true by the way , but that to be so is both required of us in this Life , and attainable in Christ Jesus ] but Christians expect compleat Perfection , that is , a living without Sin , ( as 't is explain'd by E. P. Rail . and Slan . p. 38. ) when they come to glory on the other side of the Grave , &c. p. 51. Qu. When do these Men expect to be made clean , in the Grave or at their expected Resurrection unto Glory ? If not until they are in their Graves , they dye in their Sins , and then whither Christ is gone they cannot come , John 8.21 . If not until such their expected Resurrection , what shall become of their Sins , inherent Pollutions and Defilement between their Death and Resurrection ? A few more of their Unsound and Antichristian Doctrines about Inspiration , Christ within , his Kingdom , and Light within . 1. That if the Quakers by their immediate Inspirations do not resolve what those many other things were that Jesus did , that are not written , Joh. 21.25 . and what were the Contents of that Writing on the Ground , Joh. 8.6 , 8. then their boasting of immediate Inspiration is to be condemned to perpetual Silence and shame to cover their Faces . Antichrist in Spirit , p. 15 , 16. Contradiction . Things that are Secret and not written , not at all belonging to us but to the Lord ; as in E. P. Rail . and Slan . p. 20. Obs. There they have imposed such a Proof of immediate Inspiration upon us , as doth not at all belong to them , if things not written do not all belong to them . 2. On Matth. 24.26 . they say , 'T is more than probable that Christ pointed at this Generation of Impostors , the Quakers , who say , Behold he , Christ , is within thee , &c. p. 25. Obs. Antichristian Doctrine , contrary to Christ and his Apostle's Doctrine , Joh. 17.23 . 2 Cor. 13.5 . Coll. 1.27 . Rom. 10.6 , 7 , 8. 3. That those that are in the Possession of that Kingdom ( viz. the Kingdom of Christ ) neither Marry nor are given in Marriage , &c. but the Quakers do Marry , ergo , not in possession of that Kingdom , p. 51 , 52. Obs. Marriage in the Lord hinders not his People from the Enjoyment of Christ's Kingdom , therefore the first Proposition and Conclusion of this Argument is contrary to plain Scripture , Coll. 1.13 . Rev. 1.9 . Matt. 16.28 . Mar. 9.1 . Luk. 9.27 . 4. That the Disciples did not expect this Christ to come into them : Namely , This Christ , the Prophet , whom ye shall hear in all things , Deut. 18.15 . Acts 3.22 . He , of whom God the Father , from Heaven , testified , Matt. 17 5. This is my beloved Son , hear ye him . This Christ that was Crucified and Rose from the Dead , Luke 24.39 . This is he that told Mary , Joh. 20.19 . I go to my Father and your Father , to my God and your God. [ Hereupon these Baptists affirm as before ] the Disciples did not exp●ct this Christ to come into them , p. 52 , 53. Qu. What Christ then ? Is there two Christs ! ( See 1 Cor. 8.6 . ) Is not this Antichristian Doctrine , contrary to Christ's own express Testimony , Joh. 14.20.17.23 . And to these Baptists own Confession , on 2 Cor. 13.5 . c. 5.17 . 1 Cor. 6.19 . Coll. 1.27 . Ro. 8.9 . Eph. 2.22 . p. 22 , 23. 5. Turn to the Light within , saith the Quaker . This these Baptists have in contempt repeated seven times over in less than three Pages ( and all under the Title of Quakerism a great Delusion ) to prove that the Quakers disown the Doctrine taught by Christ and his Apostles , and that they oppose the Teachings of Christ's Prophetical office ; p. 54 , 55 , 56. Obs. Here they have opposed and contemned the Doctrine of God's Prophets , Christ and his Apostles , who were all for ( and preached ) the Light within ; see Ps. 56.13 . Isa. 2.5 . Jo. 12.36 . 1 Jo. 1.7 . and 2.10 Acts 26.18 . and how can the Light of Christ within either oppose his Doctrine Ministry or Offices ? And 't is no other Light we exhort People to turn to . The Lord open these Men's Eyes , that they may come out of Darkness ; which they cannot do , unless they turn to the Light within . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65858-e140 Charg 1. Answer . Answ. Observ. * Where proves he these to be the Quakers words ? from which he himself varies , p. 11. viz. That all things necessary may be taught without them , and what less have Baptists heretofore confessed , by approving Samuel How 's Sermon for The Sufficiency of the Spirit 's Teaching ? printed 1655. A Gross Lye. Answ. Answ. Answ. Observ. * This is a gross Forgery . Observ. Observ. Answ. Answ. Answ. Answ. Answ. Answ. Answ. Answ. Answ. Answ. Answ. Notes for div A65858-e13180 * Contrary to Christ's own Testimony , Matt. 16.28 . Mark 9.1 . Luke 9.27 . 
A65840	----	A brief account of some of the late and present sufferings of the people called Quakers for meeting together to worship God in spirit and truth, being prosecuted by the statute of the 22th Car. 2. Cap. I., entituled, An act to prevent & supress seditious conventicles, by the prosecution of which act many families have had their estates wholly wasted and ruined, contrary to the law of God, the antient laws of the kingdom, and to nature itself : together with a particular account of such of the above said people who have dyed prisoners, from the year 1660 to 1880, I. for meeting together to worship God, &c., II. for refusing for conscience sake to swear in any case, III. for not going to the parish church, and not paying to the repair of the same, and not paying offering money, small tythes, &c. : humbly presented to the King, Lords & Commons in Parliament assembled. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1680 Approx. 249 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 71 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65840 Wing W1894 ESTC R19963 12291066 ocm 12291066 58892 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65840) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58892) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:9) A brief account of some of the late and present sufferings of the people called Quakers for meeting together to worship God in spirit and truth, being prosecuted by the statute of the 22th Car. 2. Cap. I., entituled, An act to prevent & supress seditious conventicles, by the prosecution of which act many families have had their estates wholly wasted and ruined, contrary to the law of God, the antient laws of the kingdom, and to nature itself : together with a particular account of such of the above said people who have dyed prisoners, from the year 1660 to 1880, I. for meeting together to worship God, &c., II. for refusing for conscience sake to swear in any case, III. for not going to the parish church, and not paying to the repair of the same, and not paying offering money, small tythes, &c. : humbly presented to the King, Lords & Commons in Parliament assembled. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [12], 84, [2], 85-127 p. Printed by Andrew Sowle, and are sold at his shop ..., London : 1680. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to George Whitehead. cf. NUC pre-1956. Caption title: An account of such as dyed in prison and prisoners for the testimony of truth & a good conscience, p. 85-127. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- England -- Early works to 1800. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-01 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-02 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2005-02 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Brief ACCOUNT Of some of the Late and Present SUFFERINGS Of the People called QUAKERS For Meeting together to Worship God in Spirit and Truth . Being prosecuted by the Statute of the 22th Car. 2. Cap. 1. Entituled , An Act to prevent & suppress seditious Conventicles . By the Prosecution of which Act many Families have had their Estates wholly Wasted and Ruined , contrary to the Law of God , the Antient Laws of the Kingdom , and to Nature it self . Together with a particular Account of such of the above said People who have dyed Prisoners , from the Year 1660. to 1680. I. For Meeting together to Worship God , &c. II. For refusing for Conscience sake to Swear in any Case . III. For not going to the Parish Church , and not paying to the Repair of the same , and not paying Offering Money , small Tythes , &c. Humbly presented to the King , Lords & Commons in Parliament Assembled . London , Printed by Andrew Sowle , and are sold at his Shop in Devonshire New-buildings , without Bishops-Gate , 1680. TO THE King , Lords and Commons , IN PARLIAMENT Assembled . THe daily Accounts we receive of the great Oppressions of our Friends in several Counties , upon the prosecution of the Statute 22th Car. 2. cap. 1. Entituled , An Act to prevent and suppress Seditious Conventicles , constraineth us yet further to make our Complaint to you , hoping , that upon your weighty Consideration thereof , some way to relieve us may be found by you . In the perusal of the following Accounts you may see what Destruction and Spoil hath been made upon our Estates within these two or three years last past , many poor Families being wholly ruined , and Tradesmen that helped to imploy and relieve others , are now so impoverished , that they are fain to shut up their Shops , and be helped themselves , and the industrious and laborious are become a prey to the rapine of dissolute idle Informers , and o●hers , who after they have devoured all they could find in one County , have gone to the next , hunting from Meeting to Meeting , nothing satisfying them till they have devoured all our outward Substance , all which Oppressions we have endured with much patience and long-suffering , knowing , that our assembling is in good conscience towards God , and that we have always endeavoured to exercise a Conscience void of Offence towards men ; and in such case where we could not obey what the Law of men required , we have yielded our selves patiently to suffer the Penalties inflicted on us , and have never Plotted nor Contrived to disturb the Peace of the Kingdom , or sought Revenge under our Sufferings , though they have extended not only to the Spoil of our outward Estates , but to Imprisonment , Banishment , and loss of Life it self , and that of some Hundreds of us since the King's Restoration , as in the Relations following will particularly appear , and that chiefly for our peaceable Meeting together to Worship God , a Duty so incombent upon us , and so conscientiously performed by us , that if the Law had been made to take away our Lives , as it was to destroy our Estates , we could not have forborn our assembling together , except we should have been Treacherous to God , and our own Consciences . And further , we desire you to consider the inequality of the aforesaid Act , the mercinary Informers , who Swear against us , gain part of our Estates to themselves ; and we are convicted by the Arbitrary Determinat●on of one Justice of the Peace , who in our absence is both Judge and Jury . And what-ever wrong is inflicted on us , our Appeal must not lie in any other Court , but only before the Parties themselves , complained of to do us the wrong , who are many times sole Judges in their own cases , the Juries being often over-awed by them , so that they are afra●d to act or speak their own Reason and Sence , but forced to bring in such a Virdict as pleaseth our Judges , which Proceedings are conceived to be expresly against the Constitution of our English Government , and the antient fundamental Laws of the Kingdom , which did expresly forbid the seizure of mens Liberties and Estates , without a lawful judgment of their Peers . How repugnant these Severities inflicted upon us are to the Indulgence formerly promised to us by the KING , you may judge , when you call to remembrance the many Declarations he was pleased formerly to make , for the Liberty of tender Consciences , that should not disturb the Peace of the Kingdom . And also , we shall leave i● to your Impartial Judgment , Whether we have done any act or thing whereby we have justly incurred the forfeiture of such Indulgence ? If the Lord shall put it in your Hearts to relieve us from these our great Oppressions , we humby propose to you Consideration the repeal of the Statutes , 22th Car. 2. cap. 1. made against Conventicles , and the Statute 13th and 14th Car. 2. by which last Statute so many of our Friends suffered Imprisonment till Death , for conscientiously refusing to Swear in any case , and for their peaceable Meeting to Worship God. Signed on the behalf of the Sufferers , by us , George Whitehead William Gibson Jasper Batt Alexander Parker William Penn Richard Mew John Etheridge James Claypoole William Mead Ezekiel Wooley Clement Plumsted James Braines George Watt Willi●m Shewen John Dew Thomas Rudyard E●lis Hookes London , the 20th day of December , 1680. A Particular Accompt of these Distresses following in each County , upon the said Act of the 22 Car. 2. Cap. 1. were Printed and given to the late long Parliament , and therefore are only herein summed up in short ; and there was at that time much more leavyed upon that Act , of which an Accompt could never be procured .   L. S. D. BErkshire , 0190 00 00 Bedfordshire , 0357 00 00 Bucks , 0040 00 00 Cumberland , 0344 13 00 Cheshire , 0409 08 00 Cambridgshire , 0608 16 00 Cornwall , 0497 13 00 Devonshire , 0222 10 06 Dorsetshire , 0163 05 04 Derbyshire , 0397 14 10 Durham , 0865 19 00 Essex , 0494 11 07 Gloucestershire , 0799 08 00 Hampshire , 0077 15 06 Hartfordshire , 0770 10 00 Huntingtonshire , 054● 15 06 Herefordshire , 0330 12 04 Kent , 0191 13 00 Leicestershire , 0569 18 ●8 Lincolnshire , 0497 13 08 Lancashire , 0428 15 11 Nottinghamshire , 0707 01 06 Norfolk , 1244 07 05 Oxfordshire , 0223 12 06 Sumersetshire , 1459 03 08 Surrey , 0380 03 04 Sussex , 0066 00 00 Suffolk , 1294 01 07 Sall●p , 0051 00 00 Staffordshire , 0075 04 00 Westmorland , 0270 17 00 Wiltshire , 0434 09 00 Worces●ershire , 0081 03 00 Warwickshire , 0069 06 10 Yorkshire , 2384 18 00 A Breviate of the most Remarkable I●stances of Injustice and Cruelty contained in the ensuing Treatise . WHen an Appeal was made at the Sessions , the Justice that prosecuted , pressed the Oath of Allegiance might be tendred to the Appealants , Page 2. In●ormers Persons of no Estate , but live upon the Spoil of others , feeling Goods for what Price they please , and taking what , and as much as they please , never accounting for any Overplus , Page 8. The Justice bid the Officers break open the Doors to make Distress , and he would stand by them , Page 10. A poor Widdow had her Bed taken from her , and nothing left her to lie on but the Boards , nor any thing left to cover her from the Cold , Page 14. Convicted in their absence , and without summons to appear to Answer for themselves , Page 17. Officers refusing to shew their Warrants , when they distrained , and the Justice forbidding them to shew their Warrants , Page 18. An antient Widdow , near eighty Years of Age , turned out of her House late at Night , and kept out of h●r Bed in violent Frosty Weather , Page 19. A Warrant being directed to a wrong Constable , and the Informer knowing not how to come by his Prey , altered the Warrant and directed it to the right Constable ; and himself broke open a door with a Smith's Sledge , Page 30. A Justice beat several , pulling them by the Hair of the Head , and drew his Knife in a great Passion , but was restrained by his Servant from doing Mischief , Page 31 , 32. The Justice bid the Officers that distrained , to take all they could find , and that which was not worth carrying away to Burn it , Page 32. Several stript so bare they had not a Bed left them , but were fain to lie on Straw : One blind man and his Wife lay eleaven Moneths on Straw . Page 32. The Informer coming to a Meeting , where becaus● there was no Preaching , he used what provoking words he could to stir them up to speak , that he might Swear there was a Preacher , Page 36. The Justice bid the Officers sell the Goods , if it were but for the thirtieth part of the worth of them , Page 39. Goods sold to the Informer for half the worth , Page 39. Upon trying an Appeal , Jury threatned to be fined , if they did not bring in their Verdict for the King , Page 44. A Child taken out of the Bed , and laid upon the bare Floor , and the Bed taken away , Page 46. Great Violence used to some at their Meetings , several Women have been dragged in the Streets by the Necks , till they have been near stifled , Page 48. Men sorely beaten , drawn and dragged out of the Meeting , some by the Heels , some by the Hair of the Head , some tr●d upon till Blood gusht out at their Mouth and Nose , with many more such Cruelties , see Page 48. A few Persons being assembled to look after the Necessities of the Poor , they were fined for the House and for the Preacher ; when there was never a one there : And when in this case they would have appealed , the Court denyed it , except the Appealants would first take the O●th of Allegiance , Page 49. Persons Convicted , and fined twice for one Meeting , Page 52. The Informer asketh a Question , and being answered by one in the Meeting in a few Words , he Swears ag●inst that Person , That he was the Speaker or Preacher , Page 54. A Person agrieved appeals , the Justice takes Money for entring the Appeal , but puts him off from Sessions to Sessions , and at last told him , it was too late to try it : and the Appealant could never get the Money he deposited to this day , Page 57. Two Persons appealing , deposited the one 40 l. the other 30 l. and a Virdict , b●ing given for the Appealants , the Justices ordered them to have the M●ney deposited again ; but the Justice that received it , hath refused to return it ( except 10 l. ) to this day , Page 58. The Informer Swore there was a Meeting on Sunday the 26th of November , 1674. when there was no Sunday on the 26th of November that Year : However , the Justice encouraged the Informers and Officers to proceed , and granted them a Warrant to distrain , and said he would justifie them in it , Page 62. The Officers telling a Justice they had been to make distress , but there was little left in the House but the Bed the Man's Wife lay sick on , and was like to dye , and did dye that Night : The Justice said , he cared not , Take the Bed from under her , Page 63. The Justice affirmed , it was suffi●ient cause of Conviction , if Persons were but seen going to the House where they used to meet , Page 64. Visiting a sick Person made a Conventicle , and the sick man fined 20 l. for the House , and for one spe●king four or five Words that came to visit the sick man ; several were fined for the Preacher , 20 l. Page 64. Thirty two Persons fined for being at a Burial , it being judged to be a Conventicle , and had Goods take● away to the value of 82 l. the Widdow of the deceased fined 4 l. for being at her Husbands Burial , Page 73 , 75. Giving Thanks before Meat made a Conventicle , and Persons fined for the same , Page 74. A Dog being thrown into a Meeting by rude People one spoke a few Words , desiring the People to shew Moderation ; for which he was fined 20 l. for Preaching , and had Goods taken worth 22 l. Page 76. Cheshire . THere being a Peaceable Meeting , at the Meeting House of William Gandy the 24th of the 4th Moneth , 1677. One Sr. Peter Leicester , called a Justice , came there , ( Informer himself ) and being accompanied with divers Souldiers , lighted off their Horses , and some with their drawn Swords , pusht those that were out of the Doors into the House , and clapt to both Doors , and set Guards upon them , giving very Uncivil and Scornful Language ; and the Justice took a List of two Hu●dred Names , and upwards , and in a few dayes Convicted and Fined all , viz. Margaret Fox and Thoma● Dockery 20 l. a piece for Preaching , which they levyed upon others of the Meeting then present ; pretending , that they were Strangers , and fled ; though it is well known they have Estates of their own : And T. D. told them , he had an Estate , and where it lay ; and said , He had rather suffer himself , than that it should be laid upon others for his supposed offence . He also levyed 20 l. upon several of the Meeting , for the House ; although he said , He knew the Owner , which is contrary to the Act : For the Owner of the House ought himself to be Fined , except in the Case of Poverty ; which could be no Reason in this Case . Further , this Sr. Peter Leicester's Injustice was manifested , in threatning the Constables , That if they did not execute his Warrants to the utmost , he would bind them to the good Behaviour , and such like Expressions ; bidding them sell a Cow for 5 s. rather then fail , and take enough for themselves : And when the Constables told him , the Persons were poor , and had not whereon to make Distress , he laid six or seven Fines upon one Person that was judged able , besides their own Fine ; and this did not satisfie neither , for he said , The Act was made to short , and that he would have had it made , that they should go to Prison for want of payment , and there lie till they rotted , except they would pay the Fines . And being thus oppressed , several appealed at the Sessions : for which Sr. Peter Leicester , to be revenged on them , pressed to have the O●th of Allegiance tendred to t●em at the Bar , and he stirred up the rest of the Justices to joyn with him against them , except Sr. Thomas Manwaring , who openly refused to joyn in judgment against the Appealants , for that he said , the Record was not right ; nevertheless , the Jury being Persons chosen for the purpose , brought the Appealants in Guilty : The said Peter Leicester having issued out his Warrants , and for that one Meeting , took away Goods and Cattle to the value of above two Hundred Pounds ; a particular Account of which may be produced , if required . There being a peaceable Meeting at the House of Deborah Bushell of Alvandly the 9th day of the 3d Moneth , 1678. Ralph Rutter and Robert Harper , two of the baser sort of Men , and John Davis , Priest of the Parish , joyning with them , informed Sr. Phillip Egerton , called Justice thereof , who fined several Persons upon their Information , and issued out his Warrants to make Distress , viz. Elizabeth Ashbrooke of Frodsham , Widdow , and one that hath six Fatherless Children , fined for her self , the Preacher , and for two of her Children , though one of them was not fifteen Years of Age , the sum of seventeen Pound and seven Shillings ; for which Fine the said Justice directed his Warrants to the Constables of Frodsham , but more especially to Ralph Rutter , the Informer , and to Richard Dobson and Lawre●ce Billington , Bailiffs , in Northwith ; which Bailiffs went to her House , and with a Bar of Iron forcibly broke down her Cow-House Door , and took from her five Cows , worth seventeen Pounds , one of which was returned . John Cheshire of Overton , for being at the same Meeting , and at a Meeting at Newton , the 17th day of the 9th Moneth , 1678. was fined 4 l. for which they distrained his Corn , Hay , a Cart and Wheels , in all to the value of 9 l. and upwards . Mary Trafford for being at the same Meeting , and also at a Meeting at Helsby , the 12th of the 3d Moneth , 1678. had a Cart and Wheeels taken from her , worth 50 s. and upwards : She asked the Officers , who sent them to take away her Goods ; they answered , Parson Davis sent them , whose Mare they also brought to draw the Wheels away . John Brown for being at the Meeting at Newton , was fined 8 l. for the Preacher , and 5 s. for himself , had four Cows , and two young Beasts taken from him , worth 15 l. which Rutter the Informer sold to John Smith and John Tue , two other Informers , for 9 l. John Hodgskin for being at Helsby-Meeting , in the 3d Moneth , 1678. was fined 4 l. for the Preacher , and 10 s. for himself ; and for being at another Meeting was fined 15 s. for himself and his Wife ; for which Fines he had taken from him by the aforesaid Bailiffs , by Warrant from the same Justice , four Cows , worth 13 l. The said John Hodgskin having a Kinsman that had nine Cows taken away for being at a Meeting , and being proffered to Sale , because J. Hodgskin related to a Butcher that they were distrained Goods upon the Act against Meeting , Rutter the Informer in a great Rage went to Sr. Phillip Egerton , and got a Warrant , and threw the said J. Hodgskin into the Common Goal , where he remained a Prisoner untill the next Sessions . Richard Orme for being at the Meeting at Deborah Bushells , had Leather taken from him worth 12 s. for a Fine of 5 s. Jane Lownes , for the same cause had taken Goods worth 12 s. for a Fine of 5 s. Richard Ashbrook and Peter Hatton of Frodsham , for being at the Meeting at Newton the 17th of the 9th moneth , 1678. fined 1 l. 15 s. and had taken from them Goods worth 6 l. Richard Sarrat for being at a Meeting at Helsby , find 8 l. for the Preacher , and 5 s. for himself , and for being at the Meeting at Deborah Bushells , fined 10 s. for which Fines the aforesaid Bailiffs took five Cows from him worth 16 l. the 7th of the 9th moneth ▪ 1678. Deborah Bushell , at whose House the Meeting was , the said Justice Egerton find her 20 l. 5 s. for her self and her Son , for having the Meeting in her House . Thomas Titley of Helsby , for having the Meeting in his House fined 20 l. for which Rutter the Informer , George Whitly a Souldier of the Trainbands , and Arthur Broder Constable , went into his Pasture Ground , and drove up nine Cows , worth 27 l. to the Gate , which being lockt , Rutter the Informer , with a Hatchet forcibly broke the Chain ; and though he pretended he had an Order so to do , yet would shew none , but drove away the Beasts to the Market at Chester , where the Constable was not willing to sell them under the value of 27 l. but because he did not sell them , Rutter threatned him , and made him leave them till next Market day , and then the Constable not selling them , returned them Home again ; but on the 12●h of the 9th Moneth , the Bailiffs , R. Dobson , and one L. Billington , by Warrant from the said Justice Egerton , took the same nine Cows , worth 27 l. and sold five of them for 14 l. and one for 1 l. and the Informer had two himself , and the Priest one . And when these Cattel were put to Sale , Rutter the Informer and Davis the Priest being present , viewing the Cattle and promoting the Sale , one Randol Malin spoke to the Priest to this effect , viz. John Davis , wilt thou take upon thee to be a Preacher of Righteousness , and put men upon taking away and selling their honest Neighbours Goods ? Dost thou believe this will cause an adding to thy Church daily , such as shall be saved ? At these words the Priest fell into a Passion , calling him , Pitiful Rogue , threatning , he would take a course with him ; and said , he could find in his heart to break his Pate : And because he spoke to the Butcher ▪ to whom the Cattel were offered to Sale , he got a Warrant for him also , who was then present with the aforesaid J. Hodgskings , and committed him to the common Goal . The said Randol Malin having some Liberty to go Home to his Family , was on the 17th of the 9th moneth , 1678. at a Meeting in Newton , and for speaking a few words in Prayer to God was fined 20 l. 5 s. for which the said Justice Egreton granted a Warrant to make Distress upon him , and Billington the Bum Bailiff went into his House , and said , In the Kings Name , he would have the Furnace-Pan , and all the rest of the G●ods in the House ; and went out and distrained upon the Corn , and the Hay also . On the 3d day of the 10th moneth , 1678. for the Fine of 20 l. charged on Thomas Titley , as af●resaid , the Bailiffs took from him Goods to the value of 7 l. and upwards , the nine Cows they said being not sufficient to discharge the Fine imposed on him ; and in a few dayes after they came and strained one Cart and Wheels worth 50 s. to carry the Goods away with . Arthur Wilcoxon of Manley , for being at the Meeting at Helsby the 12th of the 3d Moneth , 1678. was fined for part of the Preachers Fine , and for himself 8 l. 5 s. for which they took from him two Naggs and one Mare , which after they had kept some time , and could not sell them , were returned Home again , for which the Officers were sadly threatned by the Justice , to be fined , for neglecting their Duty , as he said . The chief Instrument in prosecuting the aforesaid Persons , was the aforesaid John Davis , Priest of Fro●sham , who when others refused to buy the Goods , would take the Spoil into his own hands , threatning , He would break the Quakers , or they should break him ; and that they should never meet quietly , for he would persue them , or cause them to be persued , whilst he had Breath in his Body . Arthur Wilcoxon of Manley fined 8 l. 10 s. but being not at H●me when the Bailiffs went with a Warrant from Justice Egerton to distrain , the Constables would have had them not to make distress , and they would pay the Justice , thinking thereby to save what they could of Arthur's Goods , which the four Bailiffs would not consent to , except the Constable would pay them 12 d. a piece , and promise to pay the Fines to Rutter the Informer , and not to the Justice , which the Constable refused to do ; so they tooke one Nagg , one Mare and three Beasts , worth 11 l. and delivered them to the said Ralph Rutter the Informer , who sold three Beasts , viz. one Cow and two Heisers for 2 l. 10 s. Richard Sarrat , for being at a peaceable Meeting at Newton the 17th of the 9●h moneth , 1678. fined 8 l. 15 s. for the House , the Preacher and himself , by the aforesaid Justice , for which Fines Thomas Jones and George Bennet of Chester , Bum Bailiffs , took two Horses and a Mare from him , worth 16 l. Thomas Stretch of Overton , for being at a Meeting had two Pots taken from him , valued at 1 l. Richard Orme of Frodsham , Shoe-maker , for being at a Meeting at Newton , the 20th day of the 10th Moneth , 1678. fined 20 s. by Philip Egerton , called a Justice , and had Goods taken from him , worth 26 s. Richard Orme aforesaid for being at a Meeting , the 22d day of the 11th Moneth , 1678. at the same place , was fined by the said Philip Egerton 9 l. for the Preacher , notwithstanding the Person that spoke was able to pay the Fine , if it had been laid on him ; and for this Fine of 9 l. Lawrence Billington and Richard Dobson , two Bum-Bailiffs , without any Officer , forcibly broke open R. Ormes Shop-Door , and took away in Shop Goods , and other Goods , to the value of 8 l. 15 s. Richard Greg of Barrow , for being at a Meeting at Newton , the 11th Moneth , 1678. was fined 8 l. by the said Philip Egerton , for which Ralph Rutter the Informer , and Lawrence Billington , took a Cow out of the said Richard Gregs Pen ; but said , she was ten Pound too light , and therefore went to the Past●re Ground , and took a Mare and six Reerlings , all worth 13 l. This was done without making any demand , or shewing any Warrant , or any of the House having any Knowledge what was done , till informed by Neighbours that heard and saw them ; and they were gone a Mile and a half with the Cattle , before they were overtaken , and then refused to shew their Warrant ; the next Morning the Informer sold the Cattle at Fr●dsham , boasting he had a quick Market : and though they were worth above 13 l. and a Mare they had taken from Richard Sarrat , worth 4 l. they sold all for 4 l. 5 s. as the Man that bought them related . Arthur Willcoxon of Manley , for being at the Meetings at Newton aforesaid , was fined 27 l. 10 s. for himself and the House , for which Fine Philip Egerton aforesaid , granted a Warrant to the aforesaid Ralph Rutter and John Tue , two Informers , and Lawrence Billington , Bailiff , Persons of no Estate , but live upon the Spoil of others , ☞ who sell the Goods they take at what price they please , and taking what , and as much as they please , never accounting for any over-plus ; and the said Justice Egerton telling them , He would justifie them , if they sold Cattle for Twelve Pence a piece : And for the Fines aforesaid , they distrained fifteen Cows and a Bull , one Yoke of Oxen , and a Nag and a Mare , better worth than 70 l. but the Neighbours were greatly disgusted to see the Cattle drove away , and a Woman and several Children stopt the Cattle , and endeavoured to stop them ; at which the Informer being inraged , cryed out , Kill them ; and Billington the Bailiff , with his Pike-Staff , ript a young Girls Lip in a cruel manner , that it bled extreamly ; and People cryed out , Shame of them . And the Informers seeing the Constable present , informed the said Justice Egerton against him and the rest , and the Justice bound him over to his good Behaviour , and said , He should not only pay the Fines , but be fined himself at the Sessions for his neglect , in not assisting the Informers to Strain : The Constable being terrified at the Justices threats , was forced to pay the Fines , and take the Cattle in lieu thereof . The said Arthur Wilcoxon had taken from him before , for the said Fines a Nag , a Mare , and two Heifers , worth 11 l. which were sold by the Informers for 4 l. 10 s. Thomas Peckoe of Stanthorne , for having a Peaceable Meeting in his House , the 12th day of the 12th moneth , 1678. was informed against by William Torkington and John Hussey , Informers , to Peter Venables , Justice , who gran●ed them a Warrant to distrain ; and the aforesaid Informers , accompanied with William Kensey , Constable , came to Thomas Peckoes's House the 13th of the 1st Moneth , 1679. but his Cattle was seized by his Landlord before ; however , they distrained , and would have taken away one Mare and three Calves , had not the Landlord hapned to be there present , and prevented them for carrying them away for that time ; but the Informers being not willing t● go away empty-handed , searched the Cow-House , and finding a Mare , which the Wife of Alexander Laurence had ●id upon to the Meeting that Day , ( he being a Pris●ner for Conscientiously refusing to Swear ) they took the Mare , refusing upon demand , to sh●w any W●rrant for their so doing , but said , they had her , and would keep her . About two dayes after , the same Informers and Const●ble went again to Thomas Peckoe , and to●k the Mare and two Calves away , and searched every Room in the House for Cheese ; but took no more away at that time , the Constable being moderate . On the 13th day of the 1st Moneth afo●esaid , the same Informers and Constable went to Thomas Vernons of Stanthorn , and the Gate being Lockt , the Informer heaved down the Gate , and without making any demand for any Fine ; but hearing the Gate break down , the Girle went forth and found them driving away three Cows , worth 12 l. and two young Beasts , worth 4 l. for a Fine of 10 s. But the Constable and Neighbours seeing their Unreasonableness , passed their Words for the Fine , and took the Cattle into their Custody . James Cleaton fined for himself and his Wife being at the Meeting , 1 l. for which Fine the Informers aforesaid went to his House , and broke down his Door , took five Cows and three Heifers , worth 26 l. but they restored the Cattle , all but one , upon the Constable passing his Word , that the other should be forth coming . The same Informers took from Roger Dickes of Occleston , for a Fine of 15 s. one Mare of his , and another of his Sons , worth 6 l. which they sold for 1 l. Upon the Oath of the same Informers , that there was a strange Preacher that preached at the Meeting at Thomas Peckoes , the 12th day of the 12th Moneth ; And though indeed there was no Preacher nor Preaching ; yet the aforesaid Justice fined William Woodcock 5 l. Thomas Bookly 5 l. Samuel Burrou●hs 5 l. and Ralph Plumly 5 l. though he was not at the Meeting , nor had not been for three Years before at any Quakers Meeting . The Informers coming to Thomas Bookly to make Distress , finding the Cow-House Door fast went away , but meeting with Sr. Jessery Shackerly , he asked them , Whether they had Strained to the purpose ? and bid them to their Duty , or he would Fine them ; they told him the Door was fast ; he bid them break it open and he would stand by them , which they did : But what distress they then made , for the aforesaid Fines , no Account is as yet returned up . Cornwall . AT Loveday Hamblyes House , in the Parish of Austill , there being a Meeting the 1st day of the 2d moneth , 1677. for which she was fined 20 l. for the House , by Joseph Saul , Justice ( so called ) and on the 3d day of the 7th moneth , 1677. John Hodge , Francis Opie , Tristram Carlian , with John Arthur , Matthew Bond and Henry Young , took away from the said Loveday Hambly two H●rses , three Bullocks , twenty three Sheep and one Lamb , all worth 16 l. For part of a Fine of 20 l. laid upon a Preacher , which the Warrant saith was fled , and for 10 s. for Ambross Grosse of Luxillian , Goods were taken from him well worth 10 l. For a Fine of 10 s. upon John Trefry and his Wife , for the same Meeting , and for part of the Preachers Fine , were Goods taken from the said John Trefry worth 4 l. For a Fine of 5 s. upon Peter Godfrey for being at the said Meeting , and for part of the Preachers Fine , and for the Poverty of others , was Goods taken from him worth 3 l. For a Fine of 5 s. upon Philip Ellot , for being at the said Meeting , and Part of the Preachers Fine , and for the pretended Poverty of others , had Goods taken from him to the value of 4 l. For a Fine of 10 s. imposed upon Joseph Growdon and his Wife , for the said Meeting , and for the pretended Offences and Poverty of others , had Goods taken from him by Ralph Jenkin , John Hodge and John Hicks worth 5 l. 11 s. 9 d. For a Fine of 5 s. upon Anne the Wife of Thomas Salthouse , for being at the said Mee●ing , was taken by Tristram Corlian , Francis Opie and Edward Baker , Goods worth 1 l. 3 s. For a Fine of 5 s. upon John Hayes of Fewy , for being at the said Meeting , he had Goods taken worth 1 l. For a Fine of 10 s. upon John Ellott and his Wife , for being at the said Meeting , and for the pretended Poverty of others , Goods were taken from him worth 2 l. For a Fine of 5 s. upon Joseph Ellott , for being at the said meeting , and for the pretended Poverty of others , Goods were taken from him worth 1 l. 10 s. Mary Samble of Enedor , a poor Widdow , for being at the said Meeting was fined 5 s. and for that and the pretended Poverty of others , had Goods taken away to the value of 1 l. 10 s. The 8th day of the 2d Moneth , 1677. being the First day of the Week , Justice Saul come to the Meeting at Tregongeeves with Constables , and several others , where finding serveral Persons peaceably assembled , took their Names , and fined Loveday Hambly 20 l. Thomas Salthouse for speaking in the said Meeting was fined 20 l. and Anne his Wife 5 s. for part of which Fines of 20 l. and 5 s. on the 9th day of the 5th moneth , 1678. John Hex , Edward Baker and Samuel Julian seized on an Acre of Hay of the said Thomas Salthouse's , when it was ready for carrying , which was sold to Anne Came , Widdow , for 13 s. though the Hay was worth 2 l. Joseph Growden for being at the said M●eting a●d for refusing to tell the Names of others , he being then Overseer of the Poor , was fined 5 l. and for himself and his Wife 10 s. and for the pretended Poverty of others had Goods taken from him , for the same Meeting , worth 9 l. The 12th of the 8th Moneth , 1680. There being a peaceable M●eting at Wynor the 12th day of the 7th mon●th , 1●8● . there came two Informers , viz. Thom●s Lander and J●hn Treble of Wynor aforesaid , and with them a Clerk , t● one William Sil●y , called a Just●ce , who took the Names of such as were assembled , and had them b●fore the said Justice , who fined several and grant●d a Warrant for to distr●in their Goods ; and the next Morning the Informer , and Humphry Guy Constable , took from John Peter a Cow , which was all he had to give his Children Milk ; which Cow they sold for 3 l. though it was worth 4 l. Sampson Cosgrave had for the same Meeting a M●re taken from him worth 10 l. which they sold for 5 l. Nicholas Emett had distrained for the same Meeting one Table , one Creek , one Kettle , besides some Pewter , also , they took from under his Wife a Chair she sate in by the Fire , having been in a weak condition for near half a year , and not having another Chair to sit on . Henry Williams had a Mow of Wheat seized , which was sold for 20 s. though it was worth 5 l. Thomas Hicks , Constable , and one of the Informers came to the House of Anne Hendor , a poor Widdow , to leavy her Fine , but finding the Door fast , and no body at home , they lay close , and watched their opportunity when she opened the Door , and thrust in upon her , and took away two Beds with Boulsters , Pillows and Coverlets , Blankets , Sheets , and some Pewter , taking all away , leaving her no Bed to lie on , but the Boards , nor any thing to cover her from the Cold. This is but a hint of what hath been of late in this County ; their Sufferings formerly upon the Act against Coventicles , having been very much to the loss of many Hundred of Pounds . Darbyshire . FOr a peaceable Meeting at Whittenton , the 17th of the 12th Moneth , 1677. at the House of Francis Davenport , several Persons were fined by Franc●s Bur●on called Justice , John Naylor and Richard Lindly Informers ; for which Fines these several Per●ons had Goods taken from them as followeth ; Godfrey Beard , Goods to the value of 1 l. Francis Davenport , Goods to the value of 8 l. 10 s. William Storr , Goods to the value of 7 s. 6 d. Anthony Allen , Goods worth 9 s. Thomas Burbeck , Goods worth 11 s. 6 d. Susanna Frith , Goods worth 10 s. For a Meeting at Tupton , the 29th of the 7th Moneth , 1678. several Persons were fined by Thomas Gladwin , called a Justice , John Stoppart and Gilbert Linker Informers , and had Goods and Cattle taken to the value as followeth ; John Allon of Tibshelfe had taken Goods worth 5 l. 5 s. Thomas Fowke of Holmgate fined 10 s. for himself and his Wife , and 5 l. for an unknown Preacher ; had for the said Fines the most p●rt of his Goods distrained ; a Sale of which Goods b●i●g proclaimed at two Markets , and none being willing to buy them , the Officers acquainted the Justice therewith , and desired to know what they should do ; he told them , If th●y did not raise the Fines , he would Fine them fi●e Pound a piece : Whereupon they had a Cow to Market the second time , but could not sell her , wherefore the Justice still threatned to Fine them ; so that John Marryot the Constable was constrained to sell the Goods at a low rate , viz. for 3 l. to stop the said Justices Mouth , which he did by paying the Money to him . Matthew Hopkinson , Junior , fined 5 s. for being at the said Meeting , and 5 l. for an unknown Preacher , had two Cows taken from him , which being had to the Market , would not sell , and therefore were returned to him , but had some Money stopt that was owing to him for the said Fine . Some others were fined for the same Meeting , some of which being not yet levyed , a further Account cannot be given . Durham . FOr peaceably Assembling to Worship God at St●ckton and Norton , in the Year 1678. these P●rsons following were fined and distrained , by Warrant from George Morland of Wineyard and ●ames Pennyman of Ornsby in Cleaveland in Yorkshire , called Justices ; upon Certificate from the said Morland , who first Convicted them . The Informers , William Wake and Richard Halliman , both of Thorpe Fewlers : The Goods taken by William Adamson Constable , Overseer a●d Warden ; Thomas Hodgson , Warden , Ralph Tindal Overseer , all of Stockton ; Thom●s Austin , spec●al Bail●ff John Manuel , Thomaes Thompson Constables , Robert W●lson Constable , and others in their several places , by virtue of the Warrants from the Justices aforesaid , and for the Fines imposed for the Meeting Houses , and for Richard Watsons Preaching ; although Richard Watson , so soon as he understood Warrants were granted against others in his Name , did in the presence of many Witnesses offer unto the said George Morland , That if he would call in such Warrants , and give them out against him , he would sufficiently make appear that he had Goods and Chattels within the Township of Norton , liable to be taken by his Warrants , to the value of one Hundred Pounds , and upwards : But the said Morland ( except he would pay the Money ) refused to call in the said Warrants . The 9th of the 9th Moneth , 1678. Taken as followeth , in Goods and Cattle , to the val●e of From L. S. D. Simon Townsend , 00 10 00 Robert Pattison , 13 00 00 John Blackeston , 04 00 00 Thomas Chipchase , 04 00 00 Christopher Crosby 5 Cows , 22 00 00 James Peacock , 05 10 00 William Harrison , 06 10 00 Cuthbert Hunter , 07 00 00 Christopher Crosby , 04 00 00 James Peacock , 05 00 00 William Foster , 03 00 00 Money paid upon appeal by Edward Fleatham of Yarme in the County of York , Merchant , 20 l. 15 s. Twenty Pounds of which the said Edward Fleaetham was charged with , for a Fine for the Meeting-House at Stockton ; he being Convicted in his absence , and without summons to appear , neither being fined for the Poverty of any other , nor being the sole Owner of the said House himself , but joynt-Tenant with others , one of whom was also present at the said Meeting ; and although the Judge and several of the Justices of the Sessions , unto whom he appealed , did confess it was contrary to Law that any man should be Convict without hearing , or summons to appear ; yet nevertheless Judgment was given against him . From L. S. D Benjamin Lindly , 00 10 00 John Langstaff of Howlish near Auckland , 10 05 00 Ten Pounds whereof was part of a forty Pound Fine for Richard Watson's Preaching and Teaching ; although Richard Watson did make appear he did but only Pray . From L. D. S. William Smith , 12 00 00 James Peacok , 04 10 00 Robert Herron , 05 00 00 Zachary Herron , 06 00 00 Cuthbert Hunter , 06 10 00 William Harrison , 09 00 00 Richard Watson , 05 00 00 Thomas Chipchase , 02 00 00 Richard Watson , 10 00 00 William Smith , 01 05 06 From L. S. D. Giles Calvert , 00 05 00 Elinor Wheldon , 00 17 00 Daniel Toes , 00 06 00 William Jeckell , 02 06 08 William Laurence , 00 08 00 Robert Hartburn , 01 09 00 John Ushaw , 00 10 00 William Smith , 02 00 00 James Peacock , 04 10 00 Robert Corney , 02 07 06 All the aforesaid Sufferers were convicted in their absence , without any Summons to appear to make answer for themselves before the Face of their Accusers , upon whose Information , whether true or false , they have suffered ; and for the most part are ignorant of what Sum or Sums they were charged with , for whose Offence or Offences , ( when committed ) or what the Offence or Offences were , for which their Goods have been taken ; the Officers usually refusing to shew their Warrants , the Justice forbidding them ; And the Justice himself confessed , in the presence of many Witnesses , That he commanded them not to shew their Warrants . Distresses upon several belonging to Darlington-Meeting , by Warrant from the said G. Morland , Thomas Gathorn and Robert Fowel , Informers . From L. S. D. Edward Fisher , 00 10 00 Joshuah Middleton , 00 10 00 Margaret Crawforth , 00 05 00 Michael Collin , 00 05 00 Robert Truman , 00 06 03 From L. S. D. Edward Fisher , 05 10 00 Cuthbert Tompson , 00 11 06 John Truman , 00 05 00 John Shaw , 00 09 00 Robert Truman , 14 13 00 Thomas Nickson , 00 07 00 Laurence Appleby , 00 06 06 William Dobson , 00 05 00 Michael Collins , 02 10 00 Frances Confitt , 00 08 00 These Ten prosecuted on the Information of William Wake of Thorpe Fewlers , Farmer , and Richard Halliman of the same , Labourer , Informers , by the same Justices Warrant . Frances Confitt , from whom they took a Kettle worth eight Shillings , is a poor Widdow of near Eighty Years of Age , whom the Officers turned out of her House , after the eight Hour at Night , and kept her out of her Bed in violent Frosty Weather , threatning her in such manner , that she was out of hope of Enjoying her House , though she had a Lease of it : And said , They had order for what they did from Justice Morland . Cuthbert Goldsborrough Blacksmith , Watchman with John Foster , Constable of Darlington , at the eleaventh or twelfth Hour in the Night , called to the said Widdow to open her Door , and let them in to look for Jesuits ; and she being a single Woman , and none in the House but her self , told them , she durst not ; for she feared they were Drunk , and would abuse her : Whereupon they got Stones , and as it was judged , after an Hours knocking and bouncing , they broke the Lock , and burst open the Door , and sorely affrighted the poor antient Woman ; and the Neighbours that heard their Threatnings , their Children were sorely affrighted with the noise they made in breaking open the Door . William Hodshon of Cockerton , near Darlington , Yeaman , fined for being at two Meetings , 15 s. and his Son fined for being at one Meeting 5 s. And notwithstanding it hath been made appear to the said Justice Morland by several Witnesses , that the said William Hodshon was not at the first Meeting , for which he was fined 5 s. and therefore was not liable to be fined 10 s. for the second Meeting , because in strictness it could not be accounted more then the first time ; however , there was taken from him a Heifer , worth 3 l. 15 s. And when the Constable went to pay in the Money , he treated with George Morland to abate the 15 s. Because , said he , our Neighbours know that William Hodshon , was not at the first Meeting ; and for his Son Thomas , we know he was then sick of an Ague , and is still ; And I have driven a Heifer , but cannot get her sold , for no Body will buy her . To which George Morland answered , He may take his Remedy against the Informers ; and here is a Man that will buy the Heifer ; meaning William Wake , one of the Informers , saying to him , Lay down the twenty Shillings , and take thou the Heifer . But the Constable answered , He shall not have her . So the Constable was forced to pay the twenty Shillings for the whole Fines . 1680. By Information made by Richard Keenlyside Skinner , George Thompson Blacksmith ▪ George Stubbs Cooper , John Proud Shoemak●r , and several Informations by Cuthbert Shadforth and George Joblin Shoemakers , all of Durham , Warrants were granted forth by John Moorland , Ralph Davison , John Sudbury Dean , Dennis Greenvill Arch-Deacon , Isaac Bassire , Cuthbert Hutchison Mayor , for a Meeting the 27th of the 12th moneth , 1679. Robert Fisher of Durham , Fuller , had taken from him , for a Fine for the Meeting being at his House , and other single Fines , two Mares , six Oxen and three Kine , worth 32 l. Martin Nicholson , Grocer , had taken from him at several times , for several Fines , Goods out of his Shop worth 76 l. Robert Hethrington , Shoemaker , had taken from him , ( for Fines amounting to 3 l. 5 s. ) Goods , viz. Shoes and Boots worth 4 l. William Heighington , Shoemaker , had taken from him , for a Fine of 10 s. Goods wor●h 10 s. 6 d. and Charges of an Appeal , in the recovering of his Goods , taken for his Fathers Fine , and another 10 s. Fine for himself , amounts to 4 l. 10 s. 6 d. Robert Wallas , Shoemaker , had taken from him several times , all the Goods of any value in his Shop , he being but lately set up , for several Fines , worth 7 l. 6 s. 6 d. William Hickson of Shinkley near Durham , Farmer , for a Fine of about 4 l. had taken from him two Oxen worth 7 l. . Richard Hall of Rhamside fined 5 l. 5 s. and his Houshold Goods seized on to the value of 10 l. which his Father would not suffer to be taken away , but paid the Fine of 5 l. 5 s. Richard Hopper of Wellsprings near Durham , had taken from him at several times , for several Fines , two Cows , Pewter , Bedding , and other Houshold Goods , worth 16 l. James Hall of Monck Hasledon , had taken from him , for a Fine of 10 l. 5 s. for being at a Meeting in Durham , five Kine worth 17 l. George Hall of Stockton , for being at the same Meeting had taken from him three Cows and a Steer , worth 12 l. By Information made unto Robert Eden of West Auckland , and Cuthbert Caire of Eller Auckland by John Ande and James Dickson , Constables of Market Auckland , and Warrants granted by them unto the said Informers , for several Meetings , Goods were taken from Friends at Auckland , as followeth . Zachariah Murthwaite , Shoemaker , had taken from him , for Fines of 15 s. six pair of Shoes , worth 17 s. William Spencely , Dyer , had taken from him , for several Fines , Pewter and four Cows , 15 l. 10 s. Anthony Hodgshon , Farmer , had taken from him , for several Fines amounting to about 5 l. three Cows , one of which came back into his Ground , 9 l. Edward Tonstall had taken from him , for the Meeting being at his House , one Horse , one Cow , twelve Pewter dishes , and other Pewter , twelve Rushy Leather Chairs and one Chest of Drawers , worth 18 l. 10 s. John Trotter , Tanner , had taken from him , for several Fines amounting to about 5 l. one Hide and two Cows , worth 7 l. 6 s. James Trotter , Dyer , had taken from him , for several Fines amounting to about 5 l. two Cows worth 7 l. Note , These with several Fines not yet leavyed , and the Informers giving out to distrain again , for some of the same Fines already leavyed , with their selling of the Sufferers Goods in private , much under their real worth , not bringing them to the open Market within their Liberties , with insulting Language , which they suffer from them , their threatning to break Locks , their summoning some of them to appear before them at their Houses to give an Account of their Debts , as if they were Justices of the Peace ; their several false Oathes in their Informations . All which may be made appear , if desired : And some have been stript so bare , they have not left them a Cow to give the Children Milk. The value of the Loss of our Goods and Cattle for Meeting .   L. S. From the Year 1670. to 1676. amounts to 730 19 In the Year 1677. the Loss amounts to 120 00 In 1678. 208 16 In this Year 239 15 Total 1299 11 Ralph Nicholson Martin Nicholson Emanuel Grice John Heighington William Heighington Robert Wallas Robert Hethrington Edward Tonstall Richard Hopper . Devonshire . Burrough of Plymouth , the 5th of the 2d Moneth , 1677. UPon Information given to the Mayor , Andrew Horsman , by a Souldier of the Garrison , came the said Mayor and three Justices more , and three Constables , and they forcibly dispersed the Meeting , and fined one Richard Samble , who was then speaking , twenty Pounds . The next Meeting after being the 7th day of the Moneth , and the first day of the Week , we were gathering together in our Meeting-house ; upon further Information of two Souldiers of the Garrison to ●he Mayor , he with two Justices more came to the Meeting , and when they had taken our Names , the said Mayor and Justices with violence haled us forth the Meeting-house into the Street , and then set a Guard upon the Door to keep us out ; and the said Richard Samble being there again ( whom before , as above , they had fined 20 l. ) they took him away with a Guard , and so kept him till Evening , and convicted him , and fined him again 40 l. for speaking . So , from the 7th of the 2d moneth , to the 30th of the 7th moneth following , we were kept out in the Street , out of our Meeting-house three times a Week , and then that day we had a peaceable Meeting within the H●use , and it was the first day of the Mayralty of William Tomes ; but afterwards the said Mayor kept us out of the Meeting-house , and we met in the open Street , as before , three times a Week , enduring the Extremity of the Cold , and Bitterness of the Storms all the Winter , as well as the Heat of the Summer , receiving much Abuse of the Rabble and Rude Multitude that gathered about us ; and sometimes the Officers and Souldiers of the Garrison throwing Squibs of Fire , & hot burning Coles from the Hearth out of a Window upon us , and Glasses of Beer , Wine , and nasty filthy Excrements , with Punshings and Railings , which were too tedious to relate The 30th of the 10th Moneth being the first day of the Week , we being met in the Street , the aforesaid Richard Samble being at the said Meeting , and being on his Knees at Prayer , John Martyn called a Justice , coming by , the said Martyn came amongst us , and haled the said Richard Samble from his Knees , calling him Rogue ; and saying , Are you come again ? and took him and committed him to a Guard , and then in the Evening he and the Mayor convicted him , and the next day laid a Fine upon four of us that was at the said Meeting , for Forty Pounds , for the said Richard Samble's Fine , to each of us Ten Pounds a piece , yet kept the said Richard Samble one whole night and part of a day in Prison , and then released him . At another time , one declaring in the Street , came a Souldier and beat him with great Violence . And thus with great Disturbance we kept our Meetings in the Street , from the 5●h of the 2d moneth , 1677. to the 1st of the 3d moneth , 1678. being more than twelve Moneths . M●ny Warrants were given forth for Distresses upon some of us , but the Constables being moderate , little of Distress was taken , only from Robert Cary , there the Constables forced into his Shop , and took from him in Goods , in Sugar and Strong Waters , by Computation to to the value of Twenty Four Pounds , and carried it away , and the said Officers sold it at a publick Survay in the Street , and it was sold for four Pound thirteen Shillings ; but two moderate men , his Neighbours bought it , in kindness to the said Robert Cary , without his knowledge ; and after they had taken out from the Sugar so much as they had paid out for the said Goods , did return all the rest again to the said Robert Cary ; but in all this time we had very little of Distresses taken from us besides this . This very bri●fly is the substance of our Sufferings , but the whole manner , if it written , would contain several Sheets . The Truth of which is testified in the behalf of the rest of the Sufferers , by Arthur Cotten . 1678. Cullumpton-Meeting . THe 25th of the 12th moneth , 1676. came Anthony Salter , Informer , to our Meeting , who went from the said Meeting , and Informed the Justices of the said Meeting , namely , William Walrond and Samuel Sainthill , who gave forth their Warrants for Distre●s , upon such who were at the said Meeting , as followeth . The 11th day of the 2d moneth , 1677. came Thomas Axe , John Mudford , William Fowler , Robert Coleman , William Richards ( Constables ) Anthony Salter , Informer and Warden , and Thomas Barron , Warden , to the House of Thomas Stampro , who being not at h●me , they unlocked the Door of his House ( the Key being in the door ) went into his House , and took from him , for a Fine of 15 s. 2 l. 10 s. The same Officers came to the House of Grinvell Yeo , and for 5 s. took 14 s. The same Officers came to the House of Abel Downe , and for 1 l. took 1 l. 10 s. The same Officers came to the House of Robert Ellicott , and for 1 l. 10 s. took 3 l. The same Officers came to the House of Thom●s Fry , and for 3 l. took 4 l. The same Offi●ers came to the House of Richard Old , and for 5 s. took 10 s. The same Offic●rs came to the House of Richard Seach , and for 1 l. took 2 l. The 24th of ●he said moneth came George Rutson Constable , William Hellmon and VVilliam Hill , Wardens of Kentish Beere , to the House of Anthony Henson , and for 5 s. took 15 s. Alexander Richards Witnesses . Thomas Fry Witnesses . Robert Elicott Witnesses . Grinvell Yeo Witnesses . The 19th of the 6th Moneth , 1677. For a Meeting at Cullumpton , the 25th of the 12th Moneth , 1676. Robert Gudridge of Helcomb Regis fined for the House 20 s. for two others 10 s. and for himself 5 s. for which he had taken from him seven Sheep , worth 35 s. by Kerslake Constable , and others ▪ by Warrant from William Walrond and Samuel Sainthill , Justices . Robert Guddridge for being at another Meeting at Cullumpton the 7th of the 1st Moneth , 1676. was fined for the House or Preacher 10 l. and for himself 10 s. And by Warrant from Samuel Sain●hill aforesaid , had distrained and taken fro● him seven Bullocks , three of them sold , worth 13 l. 1● s. and four returned again . Joseph Paule of the same place , for being at the same Meeting , fined 20 s. for himself and others ; had distrained by the same Justices Warrant , and by the same Officers executed , Goods worth 18 s. 6 d. George Smith of the same , fined 10 s. for being at the same Meeting ; had distrained by the same Officers , by the same Justices Warrant , one pair of Worsted Combs worth 5 s. John Richardson of Bradniuch and his Wife for being at two Meetings at Cullumpton , and one at Bradniuch , fined 1 l. 5 s. for which , by Warrant from that aforesaid Justice , he had distrained and taken from him Goods worth 33 s. 6 d. taken by Richard Coggan , Michael Nex and William Bendel Constables , and others . Robert Pottle of the same , for being at two Meetings at Cullumpton aforesaid , and one at Bradniuch , was fined for himself , Wife and Son , 4 l. 5 s. and by the same Justices Warrant , and the same Officers had distrained and taken from him five Pewter Platters worth 10 s. the Officers not finding Goods sufficient to answer their Ends. Kingsbridge , the 21st of the 8th Moneth , 1677. Upon the Information of Paucars Cooke , Sexton of Dodbrooke , William Cooke his Son , and James Matthews , all of Dodbrooke , to John Beare , and one Kelland , called Justices , that there was a Meeting at Woodhouses in the said Parish , several were fined by the said Justices , who also granted Warrants to make Distress as followeth . William Hingstone of Kingsbridge , fined 20 l. John Brooking of the same 1 l. Michael Lee of Bridge-Town near Totnes 1 l. The 13th day of the 9th Moneth , 1677. the Officers , viz. Michael Martin , John Bunker , Robert Bull , Anthony Putt , John Dyning , Constables ; Thomas Two , Thomas Teede and Thomas Adams , Overseers for the Poor , distrained , viz. of Michael Lee to the value of 1 l. 9 s. Samuel Jarvis had taken , the 29th of the same Moneth , by Jonas Holdish , Goods to the value of 7 s. 6 d. Samuel Jarvis had taken to the value of 13 s. 10 d. William Hingstone had taken by the Officers of Kingsbridge , in Timber , and a whole Reek of Wood , whi●h eight Men were from nine in the Morning till five at Night , throwing out of his Court over a Neighbours Wall , in all to the value of 35 l. 15 s. Cullumpton , the 23d of the 4th Moneth , 1679. William Leach of the same place fined for being at a Meeting there the 7th day of the 1st Moneth , 1678. 3 l. for which the Officers having a Warrant to make distress , viz. Hugh Hole , Robert Westcombe , John James , Constables , and others , took from the said William Leach , Brass and Pewter to the value of 4 l. 9 s. Dorsetshire . FOr a Meeting in Bridport in the said County , the 8th of the 8th Moneth , 1680. several Persons , called Quakers were fined , Thomas Bagg of Bridport 9 l. 10 s. Daniel Taylor of the same 9 l. 15 s. Humphry Sprague of the same 8 l. upon the Oath of Thomas Nossiter a Lawyer , and William Bond a Bum-Bailiff , two Informers , by Joseph Bishopp , and Thomas Ellis , two called Justices , and are Bailiffs of Bridport , who also granted Warrants to make Distress of their Goods ; and one Robert Ironside Constable of Bridport executed the said Warrants , and took from Hum●phry Sprague of Bridport two Brass Pots , two Caldrons , one Posnet Skillet , one Warming-Pan , one Pewter Dish , to the value of about 3 l. James Jacobs had taken from him a piece of Sole Leather , one Shoe , and his Working Tools . Thomas Bagg had taken from him eight pieces of White Linnen , some of it Ossingbrigs , some broad Dutch Dowlass , and broad Hamborrough Cloth , two pieces and a half of Woolen Cloth , worth Sixteen or Seventeen Pounds . Daniel Taylor had taken from him for the same Meeting five pieces of White Ossingbriggs , and three pieces of Woolen Cloth , worth about Eleavn or Twelve Pound ; the Constable threatning he had not enough , but must come again and again . William Smith of Kingcomb in the said County , for being at the aforesaid Meeting was fined 9 l. 10 s. for his own , and the pretended Poverty or Offences of others ; in order to leavy which Fine , the Bailiffs of Bridport aforesaid , sent a Certificate to two Justices , living near the said William Smith , who granted a Warrant to make distress ; but the Warrant being directed to a wrong Constable , he would not execute it , and the Justices that granted it being gone to London before the Warrant was Executed , Thomas Nossiter the Lawyer , and one of the Informers aforesaid , knew not how to come by his Prey , altered the Warrant himself , directing it to the right Constable ; and when he had so done , orders the Constable to meet him at William Smiths House , where , when he came and found the Door shut got a Smith's Sledge and broke it open , ( though the Constable was against it ) & took away a parcel of Bodice Tick , Stockens , Cloth and Searge , to the value of about 9 l. Though the said William Smith is but a mean Man , and hath a Wife and several small Children . For a Meeting in Bridport , the 13th of the 9th Moneth , 1680. Daniel Taylor of Bridport , for a Fine of 9 l. 10 s. for being at the said Meeting , the 19th of the 9th Moneth , had taken from him one piece of gray Cloth twenty two Yards , and seventy eight Yards of Gray Searge in five pieces , most of them being cut , worth in all 11 l. 17 s. Thomas Bagg of Bridport the same time , for a Fine of 7 l. 10 s. for being at the same Meeting , had taken one piece of good brown Ossingbriggs , fifteen Yards of broad White Callice , one half piece Black Worsted Baratine , and part of four pieces more of sad-coloured Worsted Baratine , being about sixty six Yards of Baratine , in all worth 8 l. 10 s. Taken by Robert Ironside , Constable , by Warrant from Thomas Ellis and Joseph Bishop Bailiff , and Justices for the Town of Bridport . Gloucestershire . AT a Meeting of the People of God at Frenchay , the 13th day of the 4th Moneth , 1677. one John Merideth , called a Justice , fell upon William Bennet and beat him sorely , and also beat William Wade : And the 20th day of the same Moneth , at the same place , in the High Way near the Meeting-House he found John Silcock , and he took him by the Hair of the Head , and pluckt him into the Meeting-House Yard , and then drew his naked Knife , and said , He would m●rk him ; but his own Clark and others stepped in and prevented him , otherwise it was verily thought he would have done the said Silcock some great Mischief . The 23d of the same Moneth , coming to the same place , he demanded of George Peace what his Name was ; and because he gave not his Name suddainly , the said Justice drew his Kife upon him ; but one of his Servants restrained him from his wicked purpose . The 27th day of the same Moneth , at the same place , the said John Merideth took John Bawn and pulled him by the Hair of the Head , and after that finding him in the High-Way the same day , he fell upon him and beat him after a very Cruel and Barbarous manner . And the said Justice Merideth did beat John Fryer and Joseph Glover , two Officers , because they refused to pull and hale People , as he would have them ; Several others were also sorely beaten by him ; and he broke five Glass Windows with his Staff , not leaving so much as one whole Quarrel , and caused the Benches and Fourms to be cut in pieces . John Boy of Luckington , for three several Fines for being at Meetings , had Goods taken from him worth 11 l. by Warrant from Gabriel Low , called Justice : And the Officers , when they seized upon the Sufferers Goods , belonging to Bodmanton Meeting , did say , They were charged by the said Gabriel Low to take all they could find , and that which was not worth a carrying away , they should burn it , or break it to pieces ; insomuch that Thomas Holbrow , an old Blind man and his Wife , and several other poor People had not a Bed left them , but their Lodging was on Straw for several Weeks ; and the Blind man and his Wife had lain above eleaven Moneths on Straw , when the Account was sent up ; and when Clothes were lent them by their Friends to keep them warm in the cold Season , the Officers took part of them away ; And this Cruelty and Spoil did not suffice , but the poor Blind man , and one Henry Ashby of Hawksbury Upton , were Indicted for not going to the publick Worship , and by a Sessions process were apprehended and carryed to the Goal . Goods and Cattle taken for Meeting to worship God at Frenchhay , by Warrant from the said John Meredith , under a pretence of Breach of the late Act against Conventicles . 1. From Thomas Hill , eight Cows worth 30 l. 2. One Yoke of Oxen from him , worth 10 l. 3. Two Heifers of his Childrens ( his own Cattle being all taken ) to the value of 7 l. 4. One Waggon and one Wane worth 11 l. 5. Twelve load of Barley worth 25 l. From Richard Tiper the worth of 5 l. 11 s. For Meetings at Olveston , several Persons were Fined , and Distresses were made by Warrant from Francis Fane , called Justice , for the last Year , and this Year , being 1678. as followeth . Walter Sommers had four Cows taken from him worth 20 l. Francis Puinell four Bullocks and six Cows worth 34 l. Thomas Wyther four Cows worth 16 l. Richard Adams one Horse worth 8 l. William Peasly two Cows worth 8 l. William Culliford one Mare and Colt worth 10 l. John Pocker two Cows worth 8 l. Samuel Thurston two Horses worth 8 l. Edward Hill , one Horse , four Yearlings , two Calves and eight Sheep , worth 14 l. John West two fat Cows worth 10 l. 10 s. Jonathan Russell five Beasts worth 20 l. John Hollister Goods sold for 3 l. John Orchards Goods sold for 2 l. Nathaniel Thurston had Corn distrained ; but the Officers not finding Sale at a reasonable value , and seeing the Severity of the Justices in Fining others who had not sold the Distresses , were constrained for fear to lay down the Fine , viz. 10 l. John Edmunds had also Corn distrained , and the Officers for the aforesaid Reason did the like , and laid down 10 l. These several Officers following were fined , under a pretence of neglecting their Duty ; when in reality the occasion was , because they brought not to the Justices the Fines imposed ; though they did alledge , and could prove , that they had made Leavies , and the Goods remained in their Custodies for want of Sale , Officers Names that were Fined . L. S. D. John Seager fined 05 00 00 Thomas Stephens fined 00 05 00 Robert Hancock fined 02 00 00 William Richards fined 02 00 00 William Hollister fined 02 00 00 John Hancock fined 05 00 00 An Account of further Distresses for Meeting in Olveston by VVarant from the same Justice , 1678. From L. S. D. Joseph Comings , 16 00 00 John Cooksey , 01 16 00 William Pichard , 07 00 00 From L. S. D. Edward Parker , 03 00 00 Samuel Th●rston , 02 04 00 Philip Mansell , 02 00 00 Richard Adams , 09 00 00 William VValkins , 06 00 00 VVilliam Rogers , 12 00 00 Maurice Smith , 14 00 00 Christopher Young , seven Cows taken worth 25 00 00 William Smith , 15 00 00 Thomas Sturge , taken from him in Cattle worth 18 00 00 Jonathan Russell , 10 00 00 VValter Summers , 09 00 00 Thomas Perryman , 05 00 00 Edward VVyther , 05 00 00 John Griming , 10 00 00 Edward Budding , 05 00 00 Joseph Sturge , in Cattle 05 00 00 Herefordshire . THere being a peaceable Meeting at Hereford the 19th of the 3d Moneth , 1678. one VVilliam Russell went to Thomas Matthews , the Mayor , and informed against them , who fined James Ext●n of Burghill , and John Barber of Hereford City , twenty Pounds a piece ( as Owners of the Meeting-House ) for a second default , for which Fine James Exton had taken from him out of the Market one Horse and Pad , and other Furniture , worth 5 l. 10 s. and John Barber had taken from him to the value of 5 l. by John Iones , one of the Mayors Serjants . Iohn Carver then fined , and had taken from him Goods worth 4 s. Robert VVoodliff fined , and had taken from him Goods worth 15 s. 6 d. Leicestershire . UPon the 22d day of the 4th moneth , 1679. there being a Meeting to wait upon and worship God at the House of Edward Erbye of Broughton ; John Smith of Remson in the County of Nottingham , an old Informer , who had been the Ruin of many Families in that County , and finding his Prey began to fail there , he comes into Leicestershire , and in the Meeting aforesaid finding the Persons assembled ( being about sixteen in number ) sit silent , he used some uncivil words to provoke them to speak , that so he might Swear there was a Preacher ; but not prevailing , he went out and fetcht in his Companion Thomas Simkin of Thornton ( a Person not long since in the Goal for Fellony ) John Heele , Constable , being present , gave the Informers the Names of all he knew , and the rest they took before one Justice Cole , who shewed great Injustice in endeavouring to fine for a Speaker or Preacher , when there was no Preacher there , but that failing , he fined Edward Erbye , the man of the House , 20 l. notwithstanding he was a Prisoner at that time for Conscience sake ( being committed to Prison several moneths before , with John Swaun , junior , of little Peatling , and one Thomas Pittsoe for refusing to Swear , which Imprisonment of theirs was occasioned by the Instigation of William Cotton , Priest of Broughton aforesaid . The Informer came with the Officers , and broke open the House of the said Edward Erbye , and took away all his Houshold Goods that were worth taking , to the value of much more than the Fine , and sold them to Thomas Cotton , the Priests eldest Son ; not leaving Edward Erbyes Wife , ( who was an antient weakly Woman ) so much as a Bed to lie on . At another Meeting the 29th day of the same moneth , at the Widdow Townsends at Broughton , there came John Smith , Informer aforesaid , who finding several Persons sitting Silent , Informed the aforesaid Justice Cole thereof , who immediately directed his Warrant to the Ofcers of the said Parish who , for 8 l. Fine imposed upon the Widdow Townsend , took away all her household Goods , except one hanging Press and one Bedsteed , which Goods were valued at 23 l. they also took away the Daughters Wearing Cloathes and Apparel for the Mothers Fine . Sarah Hilton of Sapcott , an antient poor Widdow , and her two Daughters , and Alice Griffin of the same Town , were all fined 3 l. for being at the Meeting at Broughton aforesaid ; and the said Sarah Hilton had Goods taken from her to the value of between four and five Pounds , by Warrant from the said Justice Cole . J●hn Smith Informer . Richard Bayly of Broughton Fined for being at a Meeting , by the said William Cole , 7 l. 10 s. for which John Heele Constable , took from him seven Heifers , worth 12 l. William Brookes fined 10 s. for which they took Goods worth 19 s. James Parker of Dunton , riding by when they were carrying out Edward Erbyes Goods , for refusing to assist the Officers , was fined 5 l. Nicholas Pawley of Whetstone , for being at a Meeting at Broughton the 6th day of the 5th moneth , 1679. was h●d before William Cole aforesaid , with eleaven or twelve P●rsons more , by the said John Smith Informer , who t●ld the Justice he had brought them from a Meeting at Broughton : Nicholas Pawley said , there was never a word sp●ken ; the Informer said , That was True. Well ( said William Cole ) then you save 20 l. for a Preacher ; but you must pay 5 s. a piece for hearing ; and proceeded to Fine Nicholas Pawley 10 l. 5 s. The next Morning the Informer came to Whetstone , and threatned the Officers to have them fined , if they did not distrain ; and Nicholas Pawley having but one Cow , the Constable took her and sold her to a Butcher for 20 s. and aft●rwards broke open his Barn door , and set men to thresh out all his Corn , though he had nothing but what he got by his Labour ; the Corn and Pease they thresht , they sold for 10 l. so the whole they took was 11 l. William Allen of Whetstone , in the same Year , through the Information of the same Informer , by the said William Cole fined 10 l. 5 s. which a Kinsman , no Quaker , paid . Thom●s Shenton of Cosbey , fined for himself and his Wife 5 l. 10 s. for being at the Meeting at Broughton , and by Warrant from the aforesaid William Cole , the Officers distrained and took from him two Cows and five Ewes and L●mbs , which the Constable Francis Saunt could not sell presently ; wherefore William Cole fined him 5 l. for a Neglect in the Execution of his Office , which he was fain to pay ; and then William Cole gr●nted a Warrant to other Officers , who broke open T. Shenton's Doors and took all the Goods in his House and about his Ground ; but his Neighbours being grieved to see all his Goods like to be made Havock of , paid the Fine , and took part of the Goods for their satisfaction . The 16th day of the 9th moneth , 1679. John Evatt of Castle Dumington , in the said County , having a peaceable Meeting at his House , was Informed against by John Smith , and one Whittle , to Thomas Lord Beamsunt , Robert Lord Ferrers and Henry Kendall , called Justices , who issued forth Warrants for Distresses as followeth . John Evatt , for a Fine of 10 l. 5 s. was distrained by Michael Pim , Constable , and two other Officers ; and because the Goods were but of a mean value , Thomas , called Lord Beamount commanded the Officers to sell them , if it were but for the thirtieth part of t●e worth of them ; so they sold all his Goods they distrained for 7 s. William Howett for being at the said Meeting fined 5 s. for himself , and 10 l. for the Poverty of John Evatt , and had his Goods distrained , and part sold. And four Officers , viz. John Bradshaw , called Church-Warden , Henry Pim Overseer , John Gettly Thirdburrough , and Michael Pim Constable , were fined 5 l. a piece , for neglect of their Offices ; but they proving the Informers had given false Information against them , with much cost and trouble got their Fine● remitted . Thomas Glover fined 5 s. which his Son paid . William Marshall of Wimswould , for having two peaceable Meetings at his House , one being the 14th day of the 10th moneth , 1679. and the other on the 15th day of the 12th moneth , 1679. through the Information of John Smith was fined 20 l. by Justice Pochen , and had a Cow taken from him worth 2 l. 13 s. 4 d. which was sold to the said John Smith Informer , for 1 l. 6 s. 8 d. John Fox of Wimswould , through the Information of the said John Smith , was fined by the said Justice Pochen Twenty Pounds for being at the same Meetings , for the Poverty of the above-named William Marshall , and 15 s. for himself ; for which Fines he had taken from him Goods to the value of 23 l. 15 s. his House being broken open to take the said Goods ; and the said John Smith bought most of the said Goods for 7 l. so they said they must come again and distrain for more , to make up the Sum ; and in the 7th moneth , 1680. they did come again , and distrained for more , & took from him two Brass Pans , and one Brass Pot , for the same Fines , worth 30 s. Elizabeth Shepheard was fined 5 s. for being at one of the said Meetings , and had a Hog taken from her , worth 10 s. William Waite was fined 5 s. for the first , and 10 s. for the second Meeting , for his Wife 's being there . Edward Belton was fined 5 s. for his Wife being at one of the said Meetings . It is supposed the Money was paid , they being no Quakers . Note , Some of the Officers being unwilling to make the Distresses , the Informer got Warrants against them , to two chief Constables , who made Distress of the Officers Goods , so that they were forced to pay above Twenty Pounds to have their Goods again ; and afterwards the said Smith , the Informer caused them to be sent to Goal , and to be bound over to the next Sessions to execute their Warrants . The 28th day of the 1st moneth , 1680. John Smith Informer , came into the House of John Evans of Wigston , when the Meeting was breaking up , and several Persons were gone out of the house , and neither any Preaching nor Teaching , nevertheless William Cole fined him 20 l. and the Officers made a Distress of his Cows , and sold three of them . The same John Evans for being at a peaceable Meeting at Kinghton the 4th day of the 2d mone●h , 1680. was fined by the said William Cole 30 s. And for having a Meeting at his own House the 11th day of the 2d moneth , 1680. Henry Beamount , Justice , fined him 5 l. notwithstanding there was no Information of any Preaching or Teaching in any of the three Meetings . And on the 1st day of the 3d moneth , 1680. the Officers came and made distress of five Beasts and two Swine , and at Leicester sold two of the Beasts , and the two Swine ; and on the 5th day they took twenty five Sheep out of his Fold , and the 6th day they sold them ; and on the 18th day of the 3d moneth , 168● . the Officers came again , and took away two of his best Horses , and fetched Hay out of his Yard . The same John Evans , for being at a Meeting at Kinghton the 30th day of the 3d moneth , 1680. was fined for himself 10 s. for his Wife and his Sons 20 s. and for being at a Meeting the 13th of the 4th moneth , 1680. was fined 20 s. and for the Poverty of others he was find 3 l. 10 s. for which Fines they took away from him two Cows worth 3 l. Francis Broughton of Wigston and his Wife , for being at some of the Meetings were fined , and they took away from him a Pigg worth 8 s. Samuel Pauley for the same Offence ( so called ) was fined , and they took from him a Pot and a Pan worth 20 s. they also seized of a Table & Coffer , for a Fine of 5 s. Anne Mould of Wigston was fined 25 s. for being at three of these Meetings ; her Husband not being a Quaker paid it . John Vittall and Richard Chamberlaine of Killby for being at a peaceable Meeting at the House of John Evans of Wigston the 28th of the 1st moneth , 1680. were fined 20 s. by the said William Cole , through the Information of John Smith the Informer ; and also for being at a Meeting at Kinghton the 4th day of the 2d moneth , 1680. at the House of Anne Wells ; they were fined by the same William Cole 4 l. John Smith the Informer . And also for being at a Meeting at the house of Iohn Evans in Wigston the 11th day of the 2d moneth , 1680. Iohn Smith the Informer had them , the said Iohn Vittall and Richard Chamberlain before Henry Beamount aforesaid , who fined them 17 l. 10 s. And for the said Fines the Officers took away from Rich●rd Chamberlaine seven Beasts worth 12 l. And for the Fines aforesaid the Officers took away from Iohn Vittall five Beasts and a three year old Colt ; worth 14 l. Notwithstanding William Paybody the Constable , and the other Officers took these Goods as Iohn Vittalls , they cannot be proved to be his , his Mother and he living together , and what they have is joyntly together . Samuel Wilson of Leicester for being at a Meeting at the House of Anne Wells in Kinghton , on the 30th day of the 3d moneth , 1680. was fined for himself 5 s. and for his Daughter 5 s. and for the Poverty of several other Persons he was fined 6 l. more . For the Fines aforesaid Th●m●s Graunt , the Constable of Braunston Gate , took from him one Mare , two Cows and one yearling Heifer , worth about 11 l. by Warrant from the same William Cole , by the Information of the same John Smith . John Penford of Branston Gate near Leicester , being in Kin●hton Town Street with some Friends , the 13th day of the 4th moneth , 1680. the same Informer , I●hn Smith , with his man , came , who to●k him , the said Iohn Penford , with several others to Justice Beamounts , he being not at home left them ; afterwards he went to the aforenamed William Cole , who fined him , for him●elf 5 s. and for the pretended Poverty of nine more fined him 4 l. 10 s. more , and granted his Warrant to Thomas Graunt , Constable of Branston Gate , who distrained three of his Cows , to the value of Ten Pounds ; but he putting in Appeal , cast the Informer at the next Qu●rter-Sessions . Samuel Wilson of Leicester , for being at the same Me●-was fined 20 s. for himself and his Wife , and had taken from him a Horse loaden with Malt , to the value of 5 l. but a Neighbour of his paid the Fine ; and Thomas Graunt Constable took 2 s. 6 d. for distraining : This was done by Warrant from the same William Cole . Godfry Smith of Burton for being at a peaceable M●eting on the 11th day of the 5th moneth , 1680. at the House of William Marshall , junior , was Sworn against by Iohn Smith the Informer , and Edward Rickett his man ( for being at an Assembly under pretence of Exercise of Religion , in other manner than according to the Litur●y of the Church of England ) before Christopher Pack , called Justice , who granted a Warrant against him to leavy the sum of 10 l. 5 s. by distress and sale of his Goods , viz. 10 s. for himself and Wife , and 9 l. 15 s. f●r an unknown Person ( whom the Informers Swore took up●n him to Preach or Teach ) Thomas Norris , Constable of Burton , took from him seven Beasts worth 20 l. Note , Th●re was but three men at that M●eting , b●sides the Informers and Officers ; and n●n● of th●m t●●k up●n him to Preach or Teach . So because the Informers Swore falsly , he appealed to the Sessions ; but the Jury did not agree of their Verdict , although there was much striving and threatning to fine Two Hundred Pounds , to make the Jury to bring in their Verdict for the Informers . John Fox of Wimswould was fined for being at the same Meeting 10 l. 10 s. One pound for him and his Wife , and 9 l. 10 s. for the unknown Preacher , though there was no Preaching nor Teaching , and but three men in the Meeting besides Informers and Officers . William Marshall , Senior , for being at a Meeting Fined 21 l. One pound for himself and his Wife , and 20 l. for the House , though he neither owned it , nor dwelt in it , but because William Marshall , Junior , was not at Home , they caused the Fine to be laid upon his Father . Elizabeth Shepheard for being at a Meeting was fined 10 s. for her self , and 5 s. for her Daughter Bridgets being there . Elizabeth Freeman of Leicester , Widdow , that comes amongst us , was prosecuted on the Statute of 20 l. a moneth , and for Non-payment of it , was committed to Prison by the Town-Session at Leicester , on the 27th day of the 7th moneth , 1680. Elizabeth Wale of Leicester , Widdow , for being in the Town Street at Kinghton the 8th day of the 6th moneth , 1680. there being no Speaking , was fined 10 s. by Thom●s Stavely , called Justice , through the Information of John Smith the Informer , the Officers distrained of her Pewter and Brass to the value of 2 l. 5 s. A Neighbour paid the Fine and redeemed the Goods . At the same time Samuel Hefferd was fined for the same Meeting 10 s. Not yet distrained . John Evans of Wigston for being in the Street at Knighton the same day , there being no Speaking , was fined for himself and others 3 l. his Cart was distrained , the value 3 l. 15 s. Justice Stave●y , so called , granted the Warrant ; the Informers were John Smith of Remson , and his man. Note , The Informer at this Meeting , in the Street , did endeavour to Ride over some Friends , made anothers Nose bleed , bit another by the Arm ; pushed and haled about several , who did not in the least oppose him . Margaret Townsend of Broughton , Widdow , for having a peaceable Meeting at her house , the 22d day of the 6th Moneth , 1680. was fined 20 s. by William Cole , called Justice , and had Goods taken from her to the value of 40 s. and upwards ; Iohn Smith of Remson the Informer . Richard Bailiffe for being at the same Meeting was fined 20 s. by the same William Cole , and had Goods taken from him to the value of 30 s. and upwards . Edward Erbye for his Wife fined 10 s. by the same William Cole , and had a load of Hay taken out of his Barn by the Officers . This same Edward Erbye , of the Parish of Broughton , was through the Instigation of William Cotton , the Pri●st of Broughton , committed to Prison with Iohn Swaun , Junior , of Little Pealting , and one Thomas Pittstow , almost two Years since , and still remain Prisoners , only because they for Conscience sake could not Swear . William Brookes of the same Parish , for his Wife being at the same Meeting , was fined 10 s. and had Goods t●ken from him to the value of 25 s. by Warrant from W. Cole ; Iohn Smith the Informer . Note , that these four above-named , had their Goods spoiled , some Moneths before , only for peace●bly meeting together to wait upon God. William Tilley for the same Meeting fined 5 s. his Kinsman , no Quaker , paid it . Thomas Pole for being at the same Meeting , was fined by Warrant from William Cole ; the Officers Richard Winfield , Ralph Winfield , Robert Tyler and William Coye , came the 4th of the 8th Moneth 1680. about the ninth or tenth Hour in the Night , and took away his Beddings , and his other Goods , to the value of 7 l. They went so near , as to take Childrens Cradles , Dishes and Spoons , even to old Hose and Shoes , he being a poor Man ; also took a Child out of the Bed , and laid it upon the bare Floor , and took the Bed away . Rich●rd Read of Syleby for being at the same Meeting was fined 10 l. 10 s. by the same William Cole , through the Information of the same Iohn Smith and his man , the Informers ; and upon the 30th day of the 7th Moneth , 1680. the Constables and other Officers , being threatned much by the Informer , and the Justice both , to be fined for not doing their Office , they then broke open his Doors , and took his Houshold-Goods , Bedding and Loomes , and other Goods , to the value of 10 l. they took all , insomuch that they left him neither Bedding nor a Chair to sit in ; so that he and his Family were forced to seek their Loding in the Town . John Ward , Junior , of Kinghton , for being at the same Meeting at Broughton , was fined by the same William Cole , called Justice 10 l. and upwards ; the Officers distrained his Goods ( b●ing his C●pper and working Tools ) to the value of 20 l. and upwards . And John Ward , Senior , of Laire , for being at the same Meeting was fined 10 l. 5 s. his Cattle were distrained ; but he being no Quaker , a Neighbour paid his Fine and redeemed the Goods ; and he paid his Sons Fine . John Smith and his man Edward Ricket , Informers . The 4th of the 2d Moneth , 1680. Anne Wells , Widdow , for having a Meeting at her House was fined 20 l. by William Cole , who had taken from her seven Cows , seven Swine , two Mares , worth 26 l. 10 s. The 30th of the 3d Moneth , 1680. The said Anne Wells , Widdow , was fined for a Meeting at her House the sum of 20 l. and had taken away two Mares , three Heifers , one Cow and Calf , seven Quarter of Mault , and six Strike of Wheat , worth 23 l. their being no Preaching or Teaching at either of the Meetings . S●me Remarkable Notes of the great Cruelty in this County , executed under pretence of Prosecuting the said Act against Conventicles . IN the 4th Moneth in the Year , 1675. there being a peaceable Assembly to worship God at Long ●laxton , William Guy of the same Town , Constable , and about six Red Coat Souldiers , with others , their Assistants , who kept the Persons assembled in the House , aforesaid , afterwards carryed them to Melton to R. Lister , W. Hartopp & G. Villers , Justices for that County , where not suffering them to make their just defence ; upon Information of the Constable and Red Coats , were four of them sent to Prison , after which the Priest , Constable and Souldiers continued to attend the Meeting Weekly , where they not only Convicted and made Distresses , to the spoiling of many of all they had , not leaving a Cow to give Children Milk , taking their very Bed Clothes , wearing Clothes : But that which agravates their Severity and Cruelty , several Women have been dragged in the Streets by the Necks , till they have near stifled them ; some have had their Clothes rent and torn off their Heads and Backs ; one Woman that nursed her Child , so beat and bruised on her Breast , that it festered and broke , and she endured many Weeks of sore misery and torture with it ; a poor Widdow Woman ( who had six Children ) dragged by the Neck till the Skin came off ; an Aged Women of seventy five Years of Age violently thrown down upon the Gound , by the Constable ; The Men sorely beaten , drawn and dragged out of the Meeting , some by the Heels , some by the Hair of the Head ; some so bruised that they have not been capable to follow their Harvest labour ; some Whipt over the Face till Blood followed ; some trod upon till Blood gusht out of their Mouth and Nose . Several of the People of God , called Quakers , being met together at the House of John Penford at Kirby Mukloe to consider of the Necessities of some Poor a●ongst them , and of a supply for them , John Dixon Priest of the Parish informed against them , by Letter to Wenlock Stanly of Branston , who speedily sent three of his Servants to inspect into the Meeting ; and though they found they were only met to consider of the Necessities of the Poor , and looked into the Book they had before them , in which they did enter their Charitable distributions ; yet several were fined by one called Lord Beamount , and one Justice Roberts : John Penford fined 20 l. for his House , and 10 l. for the Preacher , when there was never a one there ; seeing these irregular doings , John Penford and Richard Woodland were resolved to appeal : but the Court possitively denyed their Appeal , except they would first take the Oath of Allegiance and Supremacy ; and they shewed further Injustice , in that when they had denyed them a hearing of the matter , they gave trebble damage against them . Lincolnshire . THe 30th day of the 1st moneth , 1678. by force of a Warrant from Christopher Nevell of Harmstone , to leavy 20 l. of the Goods of Thomas Robinson of Brant Broughton in the said County , for being at a Meeting at Beckingham the 24th day of the 1st moneth , 1677 / 8. Thomas Kelsey , Constable of Brant Broughton , and one Thomas Robinson , Overseer for the Poor , took from Thomas Robinson aforesaid four fat Bullocks worth — L. S. 34 10 VVilliam Stillingfleet ( a Coroner , and Brother to John Stillingfleet , Priest of Beckingham ) and Thomas Burketts Parish-Clerk , Informers . The Fifth Day of the Second Moneth , 1678. by Force of another Warrant from Sir Christopher Nevell aforesaid , to leavy 40 l. of the Goods of the said Thomas Robinson , for being at another Meeting at Beckingham the 31th day of the 1st moneth , 1678. the aforesaid Thomas Kelsey Constable , John Langworth Warden , and Thomas Robinson Overseer , took from him 18 of his best young Sheep , one pair of Steers , and four Drought Bullocks from the Plough , all worth — L. S. 44 11 The four fat Bullocks were sold by Thomas Kelsey the Constable , to one John Capp , a Butcher of Caterup , for 27 l. 10 s. who hearing how they were taken , was touched in Conscience , and gave up his Bargain : Then all the ten Bullocks were driven to Grantham , but could not be sold ; thence to Sleaford , where one Parker bought the four Fat ones for 27 l. ( but afterwards knowing they were Cattle taken away by the Act ) he threw up his Bargain also ; thence the whole ten were driven to Lincoln , where no Body would buy them . Then Kelsey the Constable drove them all to Sir Christopher Nevell , by whose Warrants they had been taken , who kept them about Fourteen dayes , but not coveting his Neighbours Goods , and having done his endeavour to execute the Law , and being satisfied that the same Goods , or the like value should be at any time upon the Land , he restored the Bullocks to the right Owner . But the eighteen Sheep worth about 14 l. were sold privately out of the Market , to a poor man of Grantham for about 10 l. 7 s. Lancashire . 1679. FOr a Meeting in Bickerstaff in the said County , seveveral Persons were fined by John Entwisle , Peter Andrews of Ormskirk , and VVilliam Moss Bailiff of the same , Informers , and Goods were distrained as followeth . The 3d Moneth , 1679. Roger Horsnep of Aughton , Husbandman , for 5 s. Fine , had Goods taken worth 8 s. Richard Beesly of Aughton , Mason , for 5 s. Fine , Goods taken from him worth 8 s. Richard Cubban , at whose House the Meeting was , fined 20 l. John Bispham of Bickerstaff fined as Preacher , and Warrants are out to make Distress ; but as yet no account given of any Distress , but is daily expected . The 31th of the 1st Moneth , 1679. There being a peaceable Meeting in the Burrough of Macklefield in the County of Chester , Thomas Row Mayor , Henry Barber and Thomas Rode , Justices of the said Burrough , came to the Meeting , and took the Names of some of the Persons assembled ; and the Meeting continuing , in a short time they came again , and took what notice they pleased and went away ; and the 20th day of the 3d moneth following did Convict and Fine James Harrison of Bolton in the County of Lancaster , Shoemaker , 20 l. for the first Offence , so called , but pretending the said Iames Harrison was a stranger , laid that Fine upon Henry Burges , and one Hugh Butler ; and for the second Offence , finding them still together at their second coming , they fined Iames Harrison 40 l. which Conviction and F●ne they certified to Iohn Hartley , Justice near Manchester , in the County of Lancaster , who sent his Warrant to the Constables of Bolton , to leavy for the said Fine ; upon the Warrant , the Officers of Bolton took away from the said Iames Harrison Goods to the value of about 4 l. not leaving so much as a Skillet to boyl the Childrens Milk in ; but before they could take any more Goods , some Persons appealed on his behalf to the Quarter-Sessions , who judged the second Conviction unlawfull , and that it was but one Meeting ; whereupon Request was made to the Justices , that his Goods might be returned to him again ; but to this day they are not re●urned . The 9th of the 9th Moneth , 1679. There being then a peaceable Meeting at the House of Iames H●rrison aforesaid , Thomas Townley and Daniel Hemingway of Bolton , Constables , came to the said Meeting , accompanied with several other Persons , and finding Iames Harrison speaking , pluckt him down , and haled him away , and took the Names of as many as they pleased . For speaking at this Meeting Iames Harrison was fined 20 l. by Thomas Leaver of Bolton , and VVilliam Holme of Kersley , Justices , and by their Warrant distress was m●de upon Iames Harrison as followeth . Officers that distrained were Daniel H●mingway , Iohn Cronke and Alexander Bradshaw , who broke down his Chamber door , and took away several Hides and pieces of Leather , to the value of 9 l. one Fustian End , 13 s. a Weigh-Beam , 1 l. 6 s. In all taken Goods worth Eleaven Pounds . ☞ Note , At the Meeting for Conviction of the Persons assembled at Bol●on , as aforesaid , the Justices , their Men , the Informers , and Witnesses , and the Train they had about them , eat and drunk in one Afternoon above 2 l. 10 s. which the Constables engaged to pay James Holland , Inn-keeper , for : There was one Thomas Russell , senior , a Sub-Bailiff so Drunk at that time , that he was found in the Street , wallowing in his Vomit , about three a Clock in the Morning , and since is suddainly Dead . Phineas Pemberton for a Fine of 10 s. for himself and his Wife being at the said Meeting , had taken from him one Cow , one Saddle and Bridle , and forty pound of Candles , worth 4 l. 15 s. 4 d. ☞ Note , The Cow pined , and would neither ear nor drink , and dryed up her Milk in one Weeks time , so that they turned her out , and she went home again . Remarkable Instances of Injustice and Cruelty , acted by Informers and others , in their prosecution of divers Persons in this County , by the Act made against seditious Conventicles . THe 30th day of the 6th Moneth , 1671. a peaceable Meeting being at the House of James Smithson of Beercliff , and there in Silence waiting upon the the Lord , John Parker of Extwisle ( called Esquire ) and others , took the Names of the Persons assembled , among whom was one John Moore , a Man that had been then Blind eight or nine Years , having lost his sight in Service under this Captain Parker , the Informer : Parker askt him , What he did there ? but Moore was silent ●ill he asked the third time , and then he said , I am here to worship the Living God ; and said no more : Then Captain Parker bid them set down John Moore for a Speaker , and accordingly gave Information to Laurence Rawsthorn , called Justice , who imposed Fines , and issued out Warrants thereupon , which were executed . Al●xander Nowell , called a Justice , who fined several for meeting , &c. after Distress was made , and the Goods sold ; when the Officers paid him the Money , they asked him for the Third part for the Poor ; but he answered , That he was poor enough himself ( as some of the Officers said ) nor is it unlikely that he said so ; for when the Officers brought him some wearing Apparel ( which they had taken from a poor Day-Labourer ) the said Nowell took the poor man's Breeches , and searching the Pockets found therein one Shilling four Pence , which he took to himself , but gave the Officers the Clothes again to sell. In the 5th Moneth , 1670. there having been a quiet Meeting at the House of Henry Birtwisle in Rossendale , and being peaceably departed thence , were met upon the Way , above a quarter of a Mile from the House , by James Heapgrave of Rossendale , Edmund Mills Bailiff , Henry Nuttill and Thomas Bridge Souldiers , who took their Names , and went to Henry Birtwisles House , where they found but two Women besides the Family : Notwithstanding Edmund Mills informed that there was a Meeting , and three Persons Swore to it ; although two of the Witnesses saw no Meeting there , and the third was not within two Miles of the place all that Day : Yet upon this Information and Evidence , Laurence Rowsthorne , Joshua Ratcliffe and Thomas Bradnell , gave out Warrants to distrain for 20 l. Fine for the House ; hereupon the Sufferers went to the Justices , and complaining , desired a Copy of the Information ; but it was denyed them , as was also their Appeal , for some time , viz. till the third Quarter-Sessions after , at which time they had a hearing at Preston before Edward Rigby of Preston , and others the Justices , where the said Edward Rigby , in open Sessions declared , That though the Witnesses could not prove it a Meeting , yet the Quakers had Meetings ; and if they saw them coming from a House , which was suspected to have Meetings , it should be a Meeting . Whereupon the Officers went on to make their Spoil , and took as much Goods away as were worth 36 l. 10 s. 4 d. for that Meeting . Nottinghamshire . The 9th of the 3d Moneth , 1679. WIlliam Hudson of Little Gringley , for having a peaceable Meeting at his House , 1677. was fined 20 l. and had Goods taken to the value of 22 l. Jarvis Harrison of Rampton for the same , was fined 10 l. 5 s. and they took away Cattle to the value of the Fine , or upwards ; distrained by Warrant from John Millington , Justice ; the Officers Names are Robert Baxter , Edward Southworth , Thomas Hill , Thomas Redmall , Matthew Richardson , Gilbert Sampson ; Informers , John Smith , Obadiah Autory and Edward Horner . William Watson of Farnsfield , for being at a peaceable Meeting in the House of Ralph Bateman in the same Town , was fined , and the Officers seized and sold what Goods he had . Ralph Bateman for the same was fined 20 l. and the Officers seized of his Houshold-stuff , B●ef , Cheese , and Barrils of Beer , to the value of 12 l. and one of the Officers bought the Victuals and Beer of the rest in pity , to leave them for his Relief . Edward Aslin and his Wife for the same was fined 6 l. and had all his Goods taken and sold by the Officers , valued to be worth about 14 l. Distrained by Warrant from Penniston Whaley ; the Officers Names are Robert Brown , William Stacy , Edward Brown , Thomas Swindin , John Cooper , John Hering , John More , &c. The Informers , John Smith and Thomas Sharp . 1678. Robert Bradshaw of Oxton for being at a peaceable Meeting , was fined 20 l. and the Officers seized of his Goods , and locked up his Barn Doors , and sold all for 40 l. but the Officers not giving the men that bought them security to their liking for the enjoyment of them , the Money is yet unpaid , and the Person that suffered is departed this Life ; Robert Thoroton who granted the Warrant , being dead also : The Officers Names , Robert Smith , Thomas Watson , Thomas Bladerick ; Informers , John Smith , Obadiah Autory . 1678. Samuel Marriot for being at a peaceable Meeting , at the House of Edward Aslin in Edingley , was fined 5 l. 10 s. and they took his Cart from him . John Ouldham of Calverton for the same , was fined 25 l. and the Officers sold all that ever he had for 8 l. and gave the Informer the Money . Thomas Worth of Oxton for the same , was fined 10 s. for himself , and 5 l. for the Poverty of the Preacher ; for which Fine the Officers locked up his House Door , and sold his Bees in the Garden , and other things , to the value of 30 s. But what they will do with his Houshold Goods , is not yet known . John Barr for the same , was fined 10 l. 10 s. and the Officer not knowing his own Goods , by reason of some Partnership , took his Hat , and did no more ; distrained by Warrant from George Nevill of Thorney ; the Officers Names , John Cooper , Simeon Carrington , Thomas Gramer , William Martin , &c. the Informers , John Smith , Obadiah Autory . George Graves of Blith having several Warrants granted out against him , by Doctor Thoroton , for being at several peaceable Meetings ; the said George found himself grieved , and entred his Appeals according to Law ; but Robert Thoroton would not try them , although he promised the said George that they should be tryed , and that he should have Justice when he entred them , but drove him off from Session to Session , until at last he told him , they were out of date , and so distributed the Money according to his own pleasure , to the manifest wrong of the said George Graves , who never had on● Penny of his Monies again , although the Sum was very considerable that he deposited , before he could be allowed to have his Appeal tryed . Remark●ble Instances of Injustice of some called Justices , and Informers in this County . UNder pretence of prosecuting the Act against Conventicles , Penniston Whaley , called a Justice , Colgrae●e a Bum-Bailiff , and one Walker , both Informers , have Ruined many poor Families in this County , having taken or caused to be taken from several Persons about Seven Hundred Pounds , never returning any Record of Conviction ( as is reported ) into the Sessions , except forced by Persons appealing . John Gooderick and VVilliam Hudson of Little Grengly appealing to the Sessions , John Gooderick deposited 40 l. and VVilliam Hudson 30 l. into P. Whaley's hands , until the Determination at the Sessions ; which said Appeal being Tryed at the Sessions at East Retford , before the Earl of Ogle , Sir William Peirp●int and Sir William Hickman , Justices , and others , where a Virdict was brought in open Court for the Appealants , and an Order of the Sessions was directed to the said P. VVhaley , for the Re-payment of the Money , viz. 40 l. to J. Gooderick , which as yet he hath not done , al●hough he was much importuned thereunto by J. Gooderick in his Life-time , and by Margaret his Widdow since his Death ; which 40 l. the Widdow and Fatherless yet wants . VVilliam Hudson received , with much ado , 10 l. of his 30 l. but the other 20 l. still remains Unpaid him , although he hath often desir●d the said Penniston VVhaley to pay the same . And this Penniston VVhaley in his Charge at the Sessi●ns at Nottingham the 11th of the 11th moneth , 1670. speaking chiefly concerning the Quakers , as he called them , encouraged the People to prosecute them without pity , and bid them harden their Hearts against them ; and speaking of the Laws made in Queen Elizabeth's time , viz. that in the 35th year , &c. said , It was not made against the Papists ; for ( said he ) the Church of Rome is a true Church , as well as any other Church : And these Quakers are Erroneous and Seditious Persons ; and therefore prest the People much to prosecute them without pity . And when an Appeal was tendred to him upon the late Act , and Justice desired , he denyed the Appeal , and said to the Per●on complaining , You shall have Justice , but no Mercy : And indeed none he shewed , where it lay in his Power . Norfolk . AT a peaceable Meeting the 1st day of the 7th Moneth , 1678. in the City of Norwich , Thomas Murford being in Prayer , there came in Paul Hartley , Constable and Informer , with two young Lads , Clarks to Attourney Brereton , who swore before Francis Bacon Recorder of Norwich , that Thomas Murford was Teaching and Preaching , ( notwithstanding the said Informer found him on his Knees at Prayer ) whereupon a Warrant issued out to leavy 20 l. upon his Goods and Chattels ; and Thomas Elvin Constable , Joseph Brookes , Thomas Wortley and Henry Toller , Parish Officers , entred forciably his House , Thomas himself not being at home , and took away four pieces of Broad-Cloth , containing eighty Yards , to the value of above 20 l. and twelve pieces of Linnen Cloth , containing 320 Ells , which cost above 17 l. in all near the value of 40 l. When Thomas came home , he made his Appeal to the Quarter-Sessions , but the Recorder being Judge , having a Pr●judice against the Quakers , ( so called ) and having a Jury for his purpose , carryed the Case against the Appealant , and from the Court committed Thomas to Prison ; and Thomas asking wherfore he was sent to Prison ; the Recorder answered , He should know that afterwards , and was kept a close Prisoner eighteen Weeks . Anthony Allexander for the same Meeting , fined for the House 10 l. And on the 13th day of the 11th Moneth , 1678. Samuel Stennet and Anthony Baggish , Constables , Richard Brown and one Cardner , Overseers , by a Warrant signed by the aforesaid Recorder , took from the said Anthony Allexander Goods to the value of 16 l. Sufferers at Fakenham upon the late Act. For a peaceable Meeting at the House of Joseph Harrison , Butcher , ( against which William Watt , the old Informer , Swore that it was on Sunday , the 14th day of July , 1678. ) by Warrant from John Hillyard a Priest and Justice , several Persons were fined , viz. Joseph Harrison 20 l. for the House , for which Fine they made distr●ss upon his Beef , Tallow and Hides , which they sold , Beef worth two Pence a pound , and good Tallow worth thr●e Pence a pound , for little more than a half Penny a pound : They took in all to the value of above 20 l. and counted that would not suffice to pay the Fine . Edmund Peckover for being at the same Meeting , fined 5 s. for himself , and 5 s. f●r his Wife ; and the Officers said , they must have 5 s. more of him for their Son Walter , though he was not mentioned in the Warrant , nevertheless , for 15 s. Fines , they took from him five pieces of Demity ; and for a Fine of 33 s. they took Goods worth 7 l. And for a Fine of 10 s. for a former Meeting , by the said Justice Hylliards . Warrant , they took from the said Edmund Peckover a piece Holland worth 3 l. 8 s. 3 d. Note , Edmund Peckover was this Year chosen Overseer for the Poor ; and though he being Antient , and could not see well : Yet the Poors Book being left in his Shop , he told them , he was willing to do any Good he could , and to be helpful amongst his Neighbours ; but not long after he was in this Office , he was required to sell the Beef taken from Joseph Harrison , which he was not at all willing to be concerne● in ; and when he was askt to go help sell it , he told them , He was Lame , and could not sell his own Goods : Though this was all he said , yet two bold Women , to wit Wat the Informers Wife , and one Howmans Wife , one of which Persons was a bold Strumpet , and had been twice Whipt for Theft : Yet upon these two Persons Swearing before the said Justice Hylliard , ( That when Edmund Peckover was required to go help sell the Beef , he refused ; saying , He would not sell Stolen Goods ) he granted a Warrant to bring him before him ; and when he came before him , threatned him to bind him over to answer it at the Assizes , and to Fine him 5 l. besides ; But ( said he ) being you are an Old man , I will not bind you to appear at the Assizes : And I will remit this your neglect in executing your Office as an Overseer , provided you will promise to leavy the next Warrant . To which Edmund Peckover replyed , I cannot do my Neighbour that Injury . Then said the Justice , I must Fine you five Pound . And so he did , and gave out a Warrant to make distress on hia Goods ; and since , Thomas Bretland and Robert Sheldrake Wardens , Francis Page Constable , for the said five Pound Fine , took from the said Edmund Peckover Shop Goods , worth 24 l. 3 s. 6 d. Remarkable Notes in this County of the Cruelty and Injustice of Magistrates and Informers , in the Prosecution of the aforesaid Act. WIlliam Watt grand Informer , Swore before Christopher Beddingfeild , Justice , that there was a Meeting at Joseph Harrisons on Sunday the 26th of November , in 1674. Upon which a Warrant was granted for to distrain ; when as it may be observed , this Warrant was grounded upon a false Oath ; for there was no Sunday the 26th of November in that Year , as was made appear by some of the Persons fined ; however , right or wrong , the said Justice encouraged the Informers and Officers to proceed in the Prosecution , and to make Distresses , and to execute the Warrants to the utmost , and he would justifie them in it : And Joseph Harrison being fined 20 l. upon the said false Warrant , and having lost most of what he had before , some of the Officers , in pity to him and his Family , were loath to meddle , but one Hill a Constable , said , Right or wrong he would make distress ; and at two several t●mes took as much Beef off Joseph's Stall as was worth 27 s. And further , the said Joseph Harrison being greatly Impoverished through the Losses sustained on the said Act , the Officers seeing the Justice still encourage the Informers , some of them complained , and said , What would you have us do ? We have taken what we can ; We have been at Joseph Harriso●s House and there is little in the House but the Bed , that he and his Wife and six Children lies on . The Justice rep●y●d , I care not ; if he has but a Bed , take it ; ta●e all he hath in his Possession , and watch at his Gate when his Horse goes to Water , and take it ; and if any Man lays any Meat on his Stall , take it , let it be who●e it will. The Offic●rs also told him , They had been at Francis Landers , to d●strain for his Wives Fine , and there was little left in the House but the Bed she lay S●ck on , being more like to Dye then Live : And indeed she did Dye that Night towards the Morning . He said , He cared not ; Take the Bed from under her . The Officers being thus forced on by this Justice , took Joseph Harrisons Bed , and all that belonged to it , his Horse and Hay , in all to the value of 8 l. And afterwards , he and his Wife and Children were fain to lie on Straw , though in the Winter time . And now Mary , the Wife of Francis Lander , being dead and buried , and Wickedness and Cruelty being thus encouraged , one Thomas Bretland , and Elizabeth his Wife , caused their Servant , and one Robert Bloome , to take up her Body again , which they did in a very Inhumane manner , breaking the Coffen , if not the Body , insomuch that they borrowed a Line to tye it together , and brought it upon a Pole , and so set the Corps in the Market-place , near Edmund Peckovers Shop Door , to the great amazement and trouble of many People who beheld it , she having lain some time in the Ground before : So that it appears these People were neither willing to let the poor Woman lie quiet in her sick Bed nor in her Grave ; she being threatned to have her Bed taken from under her while living , and thus torn out of her Grave , when dead : O , Horrible Impiety ! In the same Year , some of the People of God being assembled at the House of Robert Last , of Great Ellingham , some Informers being at a distance from the House , where the Meeting was , saw some going to the House , and coming from the House , whereupon , several Weeks , if not some Moneths after , divers of the said People were Convicted of being at an unlawful Assembly , by Justice Fisher and Justice Pots ; Fisher asserting , That it was sufficient proof to Convict them , if they were but seen to go to the place where they used to meet ; and Robert Last was fined 20 l. for the House , and several others fined 20 l. for one Robert Smith Preaching there , though he did not speak above five Words ; for which Words speaking , Francis Dix had his Barn of Corn seized . Robert Tillet of Old Buckenham , a very weak Consumtive Man , being not like long to continue , was desirous to see as many of his Friends as he could , before his departure ; whereupon several in Christian Love went to visit him , and there being about fourteen Persons at most , there came in two Informers into the House , upon whose Information , it was by the Justice , reputed to be a seditious Conventicle , and Robert Tillet ( the poor sick man ) was thereupon fined 20 l. for having the said Meeting in his House , for which the Officers distrained and carryed away six Cows ; and because Robert Smith spake five or six Words , he was reputed the Preacher : For which several others then present , were fined 20 l. more , and had their Goods and Cattle distrained to answer the said Fine . Further , the great Spoil , upon some , and Ruin that hath been brought upon others , upon the Prosecution of this Act in divers other places in this County , as at Tivitshal , Thetford , Cockly Clay , Norwich , &c would be a great Book of it self , if all were inserted : And therefore for Brevity sake , shall only insert one more Instance , and then conclude this County . William Barber of Gissing for having a peaceable Meeting at his House , was informed against by John Gibbs , Priest of the Parish , who turned Informer , and procured a Warrant from Peter Glean , called a Justice , to make seizure , and went with the Officers himself to leavy the 20 l. Fine upon William Barbers Goods ; and for the 20 l. the Priest and Officers took four Cows , two Swine , a Cart , Plough and Harrows , and Twenty Pounds worth of Hay , in all to the value of 50 l. And though the Priest had got all this , it did not satisfie him , till he had got William into the Goal , and within a few dayes after , the said Priest sent him to Norwich Castle upon a Significavit for 9 s. which he said was due to him for Tythes , where he was kept close Prisoner near three Years . Sussex . THere being a peaceable Meeting at Shoreham at the house of Joan Apse the 10th of the 5th moneth , 1677. upon the Information of Samuel Turner and William Harris , Bailiffs , Informers to Henry Goreing , senior and Henry Goreing , junior , John Alford and Edward Blaker , Justices , That there was a Meeting at John Jefferyes in Sh●reham ; which was a Mistake , for it was at Joan Apses aforesaid : However , several Persons were fined , and Distress●s taken as followeth . Iohn Martin fined 10 l. 5 s. for himself and the Preacher , for which he had Shop-Goods taken by Richard Taylor , Constable , to the value of 13 l. 16 s. 4 d. as they cost ; but this did not satisfie this unreasonable Constable , but about a Week after he came again to Iohn Martin's Shop , and rifled and took some pieces of Silk , to the value of 4 l. 2 s. as they cost , which makes the Sum before 17 l. 18 s. 4 d. Richard Newman of Wiston fined for being at the same Meeting , and for the Preacher 2 l. 15 s. for which Fine the said Constable took a Heifer worth 3 l. W. Parker of Stening fined for the same Meeting , and for the Preacher 2 l. 15 s. for which Fine the said Constable took away as many Sheep & Lambs as were worth 2 l. 15 s. Henry Vaggar for being at the said Meeting fined for himself and the Preachers 2 l. 15 s. for which Fine the said Constable , with other Assistance , took from him a Cow worth 3 l. Iacob Knowles fined 5 s. and Goods were taken from him to the same value , or more . Suffolk . FOr meeting peaceably to worship God , several Persons have been fined , and their Goods and Chattles distrained in and about Bayton , about the 5th moneth , 1677. by Warrent from Justice Burwell of Rougham , and Justice Bright of Pakenham ; Thomas Bally of Bayton , a Cripple , and William Sladman a Bailiff , Informers . Iohn Hayward , Wheelright of Bayton , had taken from him , to the worth of , in Cart boot , 11 l. More taken from him in House Goods , 4 l. More taken from him in Timber , 14 l. Edmund Bally of Bayton had taken from him 12 l. More taken from him for a Fine of 5 l. all the Goods in his House , viz. Chairs , Stools , Brewing Tubs and Furnace ; and they pluckt down a little House , built up to work in , and carried away the Timber of it to the Cripples , the Informer , who burnt it . The said Edmund Bally had also a Mare taken from him , which he had sold ; and the Person that owned her was advised by Counsellor Clark of Bury , to take Witness with him , and demand his Mare , and if they refused to deliver her , he might take her where he found her ; and finding her in Pasture , where the Constable and Informer had put her , took her Home ; but Justice Burwell sent out his Warrant to apprehend the Owner of the Mare , who being brought before him , threatned him with the Goal for Fellony , or Stealing the Mare ; and so affrighted the poor man , that he got him and another with him to be bound to himself to pay him 5 l. and 20 s. into his hand ; and for this the said Justice Arrested the Surety and made it cost them both 9 l. And within this eight Moneths the said Edmund Bally hath been distrained five times , his Goods been all taken both within doors and without , being left to lie on Straw ; and yet the Cripple is not quiet , but came not long since in the Night , being armed with Pistols , and broke open Edmund's door , threatning to destroy him ; and though he for his Cruelty and Wickedness hath been checkt by the Neighbours and some Magistrates , yet receiving encouragment from the said Justice Burwell , he still persists in his Rage and Folly. More Goods taken by Warrant from the same Justice , in the same Year . John Bally of Bayton had taken from him Goods worth 2 l. 8 s. Thomas Lucas a poor man , having four small Children , had a Cart taken from him worth 2 l. Several Persons visiting a poor sick Widdow , that had lain on her sick Bed and Blind divers years ; it was made a Conventicle , and they were fined , and Warrants issued out by the aforesaid Justice to make Distress on their Goods , as followeth , viz. On Iohn Bally , taken Barley ( for 5 l. Fine ) worth 8 l. Iohn Haywood had taken from him , for visiting the said Widdow , for a Fine of 5 l. all the Good he had . Thomas Lucas for the same cause had Goods taken from him worth 1 l. For a Meeting at Bayton the 2d of the 12th Moneth in same Year , these Persons following were fined and distrained by the same Justices Warrant . Iohn Ransum of Felsum , for a Fine of 40 s. had taken from him two Todds of Hay . Widdow Adkin had taken from her a Hog and a Cupbord , for 15 s. Fine , worth 1 l. 15 s. Thomas Judy had two Cows taken worth 7 l. Thomas Woods had two Cows taken , 7 l. 10 s. Thomas Judy fined 35 s. for a Meeting at Bayton , had a Feather-Bed and Rug taken worth 4 l. George Gibson had a Mare taken worth 4 l. 10 s. Sufferings for a Meeting at Woodbridge . Iohn Rallet for declaring the Truth at a Meeting at Woodbridge the 17th of the 9th moneth , 1678. was by William Porter , Duncon Burgin , Iohn Parker and others , Officers of Woodbridge , by Warrant from William Batty , ( a Priest and Justice , a great Persecutor ) taken out of the said Meeting and carried before Thomas Bacon of Woodbridge , Justice , who had committed him to Prison , but that two Neighbours being present , offered of their own accords , to be bound for his Appearance at the next Sessions ; but this the Justice thought not sufficient Punishment , but fines him 20 l. for Preaching , which Fine , and a Fine of 20 l. on the House , he imposed on several others that were at the said Meeting , without having any of them before him , legally to convict them , and took Goods as followeth . Joseph Fuller had seized a Haystack and a Horse , worth 12 l. John Smith had Goods taken to the value of 3 l. 10 s. Robert Cullington had a Mare taken worth 5 l. and a Haystack and Woodstack taken from him worth 11 l. Peter Cross of Woodbridge had taken in Cloth worth 3 l. 13 s. Richard Woods Goods worth 3 l. John Laurence Goods seized to the value of 3 l. 10 s. John Bennet of Woodbridge had his Gate broken open by Bailiffs , at the command of Parson Batty , without the Constables order , and had Goods taken from him to the value of 10 l. 12 s. At a Meeting the 5th of the 11th Moneth , 1678. several Persons following were fined by the said Justice Bacon , and had their Goods and Chattles seized , as fol●oweth . Peter Cross of Woodbridge had taken Cloth to the value of 6 l. 1 s. William Bedford of the same had taken Cloth worth 2 l. 19 s. John Nathan of the same had Goods taken worth 4 l. Clement Carter of the same , Goods worth 2 l. 10 s. Thomas Lynd of Melton had Hay seized to the value of 2 l. 10 s. William Skinner seized on to the value 3 l. Edmund Broome , Priest , was the chief Instrument in stirring up this Persecution , who imployed one John Geston a poor Alms-man , to be Informer , who dared do no other but please the Priest , who had power to put in or out Alms-folks into the Alms house , at his pleasure . Somersetshire . THere being a peaceable Meeting at Glastonbury the 25th day of the 10th moneth , 1678. several Persons were fined for the same by John Bayly Doctor of Laws , and called a Justice ; and for the Fines he issued out Warrants to make Distress , and Sale of their Goods , as followeth . Officers that Distrained . Robert Plumton , Constable . Richard Aplin , junior , and Wardens . John Provice , junior , Wardens . Edward Bolton and Overseers of the Poor . John Hodges , Overseers of the Poor . Nathaniel Bryan living in the liberty of Doulting , fined for himself 5 s. and 4 l. towards the Preacher and Meeting-house , had distrained and taken from him by the sa●d Offi●ers , four Heifers worth 9 l. 2 s. 10 d. seized the 6th day of the 11th moneth , 1678. Jon●s Nicholls of the same place , for being at the same Meeting fined also 4 l. 5 s. had taken from him by the aforesaid Officers Goods worth about 5 l. 15 s. Abraham Clothier for being at the same Meeting fined 4 l. 5 s. had distrained and taken from him fourscore Yards of Woolen Cloth. Thomas Heath of Doulting fined 3 l. 5 s. for the same Meeting , had taken from him one Cow worth about 4 l. Thomas Dickinson of Pilton fined 3 l. 5 s. for being at the same Meeting , but could not come at any of his Goods to make Distress . Several others were fined 5 s. a piece , but were Poor , and the Officers forbore distraining on them . Peter Goole of Marke for being at the same Meeting at Glaston fined 5 s. for himself , and 40 s. towards a Fine laid upon Jasper Batt , for which Stephen Crocker , Constable of Bemston , Edward Duckett of Marke , Tything-man , and other Officers , by the aforesaid Justice Bayly's Warrant , took from the said Peter Goole one Heifer worth 3 l. Richard Goole for being at the same Meeting was fined for himself and the Preacher 2 l. 5 s. and had for the said Fine one Heifer taken from him by the aforesaid Officers . William Harris of Marke aforesaid , fined 5 s. had a Crock taken from him worth 14 s. John Clark of Grenton fined for the said Meeting 3 l. 5 s. Robert Clark of Grenton fined 3 l. 5 s. for being at the said Meeting . But as yet no account is given of what Distresses are made upon them . Remarkable Notes in the County of Sommerset aforesaid , of the Cruelty and Injustice of several Magistrates and others . SEveral Persons being at the Burial of one Samuel Clothier , the 29th day of the 6th Moneth , 1670. at Alford , one Robert Hunt , called a Justice , made it a Conventicle , and fined some of them ; though nothing was spoke at the Grave , but all silent and quiet . Thirty two Persons were fined for being at the Burial of Philip Tyler of Walton , 1675. for which they had taken from them in Cows , Corn , and other Goods , to the value of 82 l. and upwards , by Warrant from Francis Paulet , Justice , who when none else would buy the distrained Cattle , he sent men to buy them for himself . One Margery Osmond , who was not at the Burial , & yet was fined by F. Paulet ; went to him to know the Names of them that had Sworn against her , and desired Justice of him ; he said , It was a mistake ; by which it did afterwards appear , he was willing to excuse the Informers , howbeit , he then read in a Book , in the hearing of several Persons , in which Bayner and Wythey were recorded Informers against the said Assembly at the Burial , and said withal , that she should Prosecute them for Perjury at the next Sessions , and that the Record at the Sessions should be evidence against them , or to that effect : Bu● he was not so good as his Word ; for at the Sessions Witnesses were present , to testifie that she was not at the said Burial ; but Francis Paulet ( in favour to those Informers ) left Wythey's Name out of the Record , and put in anothers Name who was not present , and also left out her Name : So there could be no proceedings against the Informers for their Perjury , albeit he had issued out his Warrant to leavy the Fine imposed on her . Further , the said Justice Paulet fined several Persons 24 l. for an unknown Preacher ; yet sent a Certificate to the Mayor of Bridgwater , to distrain 20 l. on the Goods of John Anderdon , for Preaching at the Burial that day : So he would have 44 l. in all ( Note , That is 24 l. more then the Rigor of the Law allows of , admitting it had been a Conventicle ) for the Preacher known , and one unknown ; when in Truth , there was none spoke but John Anderdon , that Christianly exhorted the People to consider their later end : And when Mary Tayler , the Widdow of the deceased , ( who was fined 4 l. for being at her Husbands Burial , and had Goods taken for it ) spoke mildly to him , to shew him his Injustice ; he told her , It did not become Women to go to their H●bands Burials . Witnesses , John Cluff , Henry Clothier , George Taylor . Worcestershire . JOhn Watts of Draitwich , in the said County , having two of his Friends at Supper with him , viz. John Cartwright and John Stanley : Because John Cartwright gave Thanks before Meat , was informed against to Bailiff Stainer and Bailiff Berrot , who made it a Conventicle , and for the same committed John Cartwright and John Stanley to Prison : And further , fined John Watts for the said Meeting 20 l. for which Fine the Officers seized upon his Team : and three more they fined ( although they were not in the Room , but in a Room by ) viz. John Tylar , Richard Woodward , Thomas Hayward , and for their Fines , they had Goods taken from them to the value of 20 s. by Warrant from the same Bailiffs , Stainer and Berrot ; Stainer being not long after found dead with a fall from his Horse . This was done soon after the Act against seditious Conventicles came forth , in the Year 1670. In which Year , for assembling peaceably to worship God in this County , many Persons had great Spoil and Havock made upon their Goods and Chattels , as well as in other Counties ; all which for Brevity sake is omitted , only the aforesaid piece of notorious Injustice could not be passed by . Bromsgrove , the 29th of the 9th Moneth , 1679. There being a Person buried in the Grave-Yard in Bromsgrove aforesaid , and Robert Hill of the same place being present at the said Burial , and speaking a few Words to the People , by way of Exhortation to Repentance and Amendment of Life , Thomas Willmot , Parson of Bromsgrove , and his Man Thomas , and Matthew Cartwright a Baker , informed the Justice thereof , and it was judged to be a Conventicle , and Robert Hill was fined 20 l. and a Warrant was issued forth from Leonard Simpson , a Justice , dated the 29th of the 9th Moneth , 1679. to distrain fo● the said Fine ; and Thomas Elkins of Bellbroughton , in the said County ; Constable , distrained and took from the said Robert Hill a Waggon worth 5 l. 10 s. which they sold for 3 l. 2 s. And Houshold-Goods they took , which Goods with the Waggon were worth in all above 20 l. Westmerland . FOr a peaceable Meeting to worship God at Bownasse , in the Parish of Windermere , the 15th day of the 7th Moneth , 1678. several Persons were fined by Daniel Fleeming and Christopher Phillipson , two called Justices , and Warrants were issued out to distrain the Goods and Chattels of these Persons following ; which Warrants were executed by John Birket of Trontbeckbridge , and John Birket of Limesit Constable , and other Officers . Thomas Williamson had taken from him two Cows , one Steere , twenty nine Sheep ; and on another day four Heifers , and one Cow more , all worth 28 l. sold for 21 l. 8 d. This was for preaching Truth and Righteousness , which is against all Sedition , Plotting and contriving Insurrection . William Rawes fined 20 l. 5 s. had Cattle and Goods taken from him worth 23 l. sold for 15 l. 14 s. Isaac Dixon and George Dixon fined 10 s. had Goods taken worth 18 s. About a Week after , the Officers went again to George Dixons , and though he was not at home , they demanded 10 l. for two Strangers being at the Meeting , for which at that time they took twelve fat Sheep worth 4 l. 10 s. Christopher Dixon had taken to the value of 12 s. George Williamson Goods worth 10 s. Richard Braithwait fined for himself , his Wife and two Strangers , had taken to the value of 6 l. 19 s. William Wilcosoun had taken 4 l. 15 s. Martin Sewert had Goods taken to the value of 6 s. 8 d. Miles Sawrey had Goods taken to the value of 7 s. Thomas Grave of Hugill had taken the worth of 12 s. John Tompson of Creeke being at a Meeting at Bownasse aforesaid , seeing Boys and People rude , ( who threw a Dog into the Meeting ) he only exhorted the People ( in Love ) to Soberness and Moderation , for which he was Fined 20 l. for Preaching ; One of the Justices thinking it too hard , would have mittigated the Fine ; but the other said , it was Preaching , and it could not be passed by : For which Fine , the Officers took Cattle from him to the value of 22 l. which were sold for 19 l. 5 s. Peter Bateman and Miles his Son had taken to the value of 10 s. Taken from Richard Crudeson , Goods worth 7 s. From George Tompson 12 s. Richard Birket 5 s. Robert Tomson Goods worth 18 s. Thomas Braithwait had taken Goods worth 1 l. 13 s. William Garnet had taken Goods worth 13 s. John Parson Goods worth 7 s. At a Meeting the 13th day of the 8th Moneth , 1678. at the House of Edward Cragg of Attouthwait in Heversham Parish , Edward Wilson , called Justice , sent several Informers , upon whose Evidence he and another Justice Convicted several Persons , ( without being brought before them ) and gave out Warrants to make Distress , as followeth . Joseph Gregg fined 10 s. for himself and his Wife , had Pewter and Brass taken from him worth more then the Fine ; yet it did not satisfie the Officers nor Justice , who bid them take all they could see , and thereupon they took more from him , a young Cow worth 3 l. 10 s. sold for 2 l. 12 s. 1 d. And returned no Overplus . Officers that distrained for this Meeting , were Richard Cornthwait Constable , Richard Cook Warden , and Gabriel Croft Overseer . William Walker fined 5 s. for which the same Officers took from him a Mare worth 4 l. 5 s. sold for 3 l. 6 s. and returned no Overplus . Edward Cragg had taken to the value of 2 l. 16 s. Simon Tompson had taken Goods worth 12 s. George Wharton had taken Goods worth 18 s. Dorothy Lorrimer had taken Goods worth 10 s. Thomas Hugginson had taken the worth of 9 s. 10 d. Richard Thompson of Preston had taken from him a young Heifer worth 1 l. 5 s. Arthur Borrough fined 5 s. for which the same Officers took from him a Horse worth 3 l. 6 s. 8 d. Hugh Cornthwait fined 5 s. had taken a Heifer worth 2 l. 16 s. and nothing returned . Thomas Camm of Camsgill in Preston-Patrick , for declaring the Truth at the aforesaid Meeting , was fined 20 l. but Thomas Sell the Constable , & Richard Cragg Wa●den , being moderate Officers , were unwilling to make distress , until threatned and frightned thereto by Edward Wilson aforesaid , whereupon they took two young Oxen , one Steere and one Heifer , worth 11 l. 10 s. And on the 28th day of the 10th Moneth , 1678. took more , one Cow , one Steere , and three young Heifers , worth 11 l. In all 22 l. 10 s. sold for 15 l. 8 d. And when the Officers complained to the aforesaid Justice Wilson , That they could not sell some of the Cattle ; he charged them to sell them , whatever they got for them , and fetch more until they had enough ; and bid them have them from Market to Market , and be sure to offer them cheap enough , and some or other would buy them ; and threatned them , if they did not sell them , and make up the sum , he would make them make it up themselves . On the 18th day of the 2d Moneth , 1679. the aforesaid Thomas Sill Constable , and Richard Cragg Warden , and Geo●ge Hatton Overseer , came again to Thomas Camm for 5 l. 4 s. 4 d. more , which they pretended was wanting of his Fine of 20 l. 5 s. and went into his Ground and took twenty five Ewes snd twenty five Lambs , some of which were none of his own , however they drove them away , taking no notice of that Plea , and sold them with much ado ( People being shie in medling with them , when they understood upon what account they were taken away ) for 4 l. 5 s. although they were really worth 7 l. 10 s. The 26th day of the same Moneth , the same Officers came again to Thomas Camms , and took five of his best Weathers worth 1 l. 10 s. which they sold for 19 s. 6 d. The 23d of the 2d Moneth , 1679. John Waller Constable , Martin Moore Warden , and John Hatton Overseer , took from John Hudson , for a Fine of 10 s. for himself and his Wife being at the said Meeting , one Cow worth 3 l. 5 s. which they sold for 3 l. Robert Waller fined for the same Meeting 5 s. had a Cow taken from him by the same Officers worth 3 l. 12 s. which they sold for 3 l. About the middle of the 2d Moneth Th●mas Preston Constable , William Parke Warden , John Moore Overseer , for a Fine of 5 s. imposed on Richard Atkinson , for being at the said Meeting , took from him three Cows worth 10 l. 10 s. and sold them for 7 l. 6 s. 8 d. to a Neighbour of Richards , who sent the best home , and sold the other two for 7 l. 5 s. John Preston for a Fine of 5 s. for being at the same Meeting , had aoken from him by the same Officers , one young Steere worth 2 l. 10 s. which they sold for 1 l. and returned no Overplus . Yorkshire . An Account of the Sufferings of the People called Quakers for Meetings in Cleaveland North - Riding since the 3d Moneth , 1677. until the 11th of the 2d Moneth , 1678. BY a Warrant issued forth from the said Edward Trotter of Skelton , called Justice , the 6th of the 3d moneth , 1677. against Tobias Hoope of the same , for 20 l. 10 s. for suffering a Meeting at his House , and himself and Wife being there ; the said Tobias Hoope had Goods taken from him worth 23 l. and more , and sold by the Constable and Overseers in Kirbymoreside and Stocksley for 16 l. 9 s. Likewise Joshua Hoope for himself and Wife being at the said Meeting was fined 10 s. being no Quaker , the Monies paid . Philip Scurth of Hinderwill for declaring at the said Meeting was fined 20 l. and the Moneys leavyed and paid . Cuthbert Broderick of Rowsby , for another Friend called Robert Robinson declaring at the said Meeting , and himself being there , was fined 10 l. 5 s. the Penalty paid and leavyed . John Pennit of Guisbrougle fined for the said Declaration 5 l. William Jow●y of Scugdaile near Guisbrougle aforesaid , for the like , 5 l. and for himself and Wife being present , 10 s. All which were leavied for . John Proud of Moresone for John Robinson fined 5 l. and for himself 5 s. and had two Oxen distrained worth 8 l. George Robinson of Lazinby for the Preacher fined 5 l. and his self and Son being there 10 s. and had Goods taken from him and sold worth 8 l. George Wright of the same Town , for the like , fined 5 l. 5 s. and two Oxen sold worth 8 l. and more . John Jackson of Lazinby aforesaid , for the Preacher fined 5 l. and his self being there 5 s. The Penalty paid and leavyed . VVilliam Atkinson of Moresone was fined , and had leavyed on him 5 s. John Chapman of Stangab , the like , 5 s. John Pennet aforesaid , VVilliam Stamper , Edward Hunter , James Burkilt , William Radcliff , John Reedhead of Guisbrougle were in like manner fined 5 s. a piece by Edward Trotter , and all these abovesaid for one Meeting the 6th of the 3d moneth , 1677. The Reader may take notice , That the Minister ( so called ) of Skelton , whose Name is Thornton , is reported , and indeed may be well supposed to have been urgent with the Church-Warden ( as they term him ) of the same , about the said Information , who with other three poor Labouring-men of that Town were Informers ; their Names James Linas , Richard Westland , George Smith and James Hawman . For a Meeting at Skugdaile the 19th of the 6th moneth last past , Goods were taken as followeth , by Warrant from James Bennyman ( called Justice ) of Ormsby in the the said Riding , upon the Information of Samuel Crosthwaite of Lofthouse , and William Nelson of Skelton . William Jowey of Skugdaile , senior , for s●ffering ( as they recorded it ) a Meeting at his House ( though he was absent ) was fined 20 l. and had his Goods distrained on . William Stamper , Edward Hunter , Ralph Hunter , John Reedhead and his Wife , and Elizabeth Jackson , all of Guisbrougle , for being at the said Mating fined 5 s. a piece . Tobi is Hoope of Skelton aforesaid ( for himself , and for William Flunders of Ormsby ) fined 10 s. Robert Cooke of Upleatham for himself and Christopher Flunders of Ormsby aforesaid , fined 10 s. William Barker of Wilton for himself and Mark Lisle of Kukleatham , fined 10 s. George Robinson of Lazinby , aforesaid , for himself and Robert Corney Master of a Vessel , then riding in Tease , fined 10 s. Likewise , by Warrants from Constable Bradshaw ( called Justice ) living at Nunthrorpe , upon the Information of Samuel Crosthwait and William Nelson aforesaid , for a Meeting at Skugdaile the 22d of the said 6th moneth , Gilbert Natson of Broughton , Thomas Masterman of Nunthorp , Elizabeth Robinson of Lazinby , George Wright of the same , and John Robinson of the same ( although he was not there ) were all fined 5 s. a piece , and William Stamper of Guisbroug●e , and Edward Hunter of the same , were fined 10 s. a piece for the second Conviction , there being others at the said Meeting , whose Names they knew not , as appears by their false Swearing against Iohn Robinson , being labouring with his Work-folks in the Field all that day , as he made appear before them and the Justice by four Witnesses , before the Fine could be taken o●f . The said Informers did inform upon Oath the said Justice Bradshaw , that John Proud of Moresone the 25th of the 9th moneth last past , had a Meeting at his House , though they found none but some Neighbours met to consider of providing a House for a poor Widdow , and some Maintenance , whose Husband was lately dead , and left her two Children , and the Landlord had seized of all her Estate ; and they likewise Swore , That Thomas Porvit's Wife of Liverton , and Robert Tuplady's Wife and Daughter of the same , were there assembled , which said three Persons were not there ; and those they found there were eating and drinking . But Appeal was made to the Sessions , and the said John Proud and other Persons cleared . Notes of the Injustice of Informers and Magistrates in this County of York . MAry Todd a poor Widdow , for having a Meeting at her house one Francis Driffield , called a Justice , sent a Warrant to bring her before him , but she being Aged , was not able to ride nor go on foot so far ; then he gave order to distrain 20 l. 5 s. on her Goods : The Informers told him , Her Goods were not worth so much Well ( said he ) take all she hath ; which they performed as near as they could , not leaving her a Bed to lie on , taking her very Clothes , though she was but a poor Widdow , Aged , and in Debt . Wllliam Thornaby the Younger , and John Allison both of Richmond , grand Informers , searching for a Meeting at a Widdows House , where they found three Persons visiting the Widdows Daughter , who lay very weak , not likely to live ; and whilst they were searching , there came in two other Persons accidentally , one of which was a Kinswoman , and no Quaker , as was afterwards proved ; nevertheless Thornaby set down their Names , and went to James Metcalfe , called a Justice , who fined the Persons , and granted a Warrant to distrain ; but the Sufferers appealing , the most moderate Justices judged this hard measure and illegal , and ordered the Money to be returned . This is only noted to shew the Wickedness of these Informers and Justice , and what a Prey they would have made upon Innocent People , if they had not been prevented . A further Account from the County of Somerset . For a Meeting at Glastonbury , the 12th Moneth , 1679. TAken from John Clothier of East Lidford on the 22th of the 7th moneth , 1679. by Edward Chapman the elder , and Edward C●apman the younger , and Thomas Lynterne , two fatting Oxen worth near 15 l. and since sold ; For a fine ( as it s said ) of 10 l. 10 s. upon a pretended Conviction made before Bishop Mew , or John Baylie hi● Chancellor . Taken from Henry Gundry of Streat , by Warrant of D●stress from John Baylie the Bishops Chancellor , two young Oxen worth about 7 l. for a fine of 3 l. 5 s. laid upon his Wife for being at a Meeting at Glastonbury , Henry Gundry himself being a Prisoner . See the Injustice and Ignorance of the man , how he acts contrary to Law and Justice , to lay a Fine of 3 l. 5 s. upon a man's Wife for being at a Meeting , and leavied upon her Husbands Goods , and he not at the Meeting , when the utmost for her being there could have been but 5 s. or 10 s. to be leavied upon her Husbands Goods . Taken from William Hulett of Streat , for a Meeting at Glastonbury , two Pots worth near 1 l. 10 s. Thomas Dickerson of Pilton fined 5 l. for Jasper Batt and Elizabeth Olliffe for a Meeting in the House of Vincent Boldy in Glastonbury ( as charged ) and 10 s. for himself , for the second Offence , by Warrant granted from Peter Mew , Bishop of Bath and Wells , and John Baylie his Chancellor and Brother-in-Law ; and several other Fines laid , and Warrants issued out , but no certain Account thereof yet given . BREWTEN . Taken from John Martin of Brewten on the 9th day of the 12th moneth , 1679. by Warrant from Maurice Berkly , called Lord Fitz Harding , and Francis Paulett of Wells , for a Meeting at Thomas Whitheads in Brewten , a Horse worth about 3 l. for a fine of 2 l. 5 s. laid on the said John Martin's Wife ; the Horse was taken by Edward Chicke and Henry Albin , Wardens , and Thomas Patter , Constab●e , and sold , which since is rid about by Jane Berkly the said Justices Daughter . For a Meeting at Gregory Stoak in the 5th moneth , 1680. John Cuffe of Aishill fined 10 l. and odd Money , and his Goods seized to a considerable value , by Warrant from Henry Walrond , a Justice of Peace , so called , who hath made much spoil upon Friends , even to his own undoing , as many think . John Pinny fined 10 l. and odd Money , and seizure made upon his Goods by Warrant from Henry Walrond . Francis Scott of Hambridge fined 10 l. and odd Money , and Warrant issued for leavying the same , from the said Henry Walrond . John Coate of Kingsbury fined 10 l. and odd Money , and Warrant issued to leavy the same upon his Goods and Chattles from the said Henry Walrond ; and several other Fines laid and Warrants issued by the said Walrond , but no certain account thereof yet given . September , 1680. Robert Abbott an Inn-keeper in the Town of Ivelchester , fined 40 l. and by Warrant of Distress from the said Henry Walrond leavyed on his Goods and Chattles by Robert Morris and Giles Bale , for two Meetings ( as the said Walrond alledgeth ) at one and the same hour , and in one and the same house , the one of men and the other of women , they being several of them the said Robert Abbotts Guests , and lodged in his House , and did meet to confer about Provisio● for the Poor , Fatherless and Widdows , which they account a Christian Duty and a good Work , and were never questioned for such Meetings before this time ; and now most sober People do judge , That it s done only for Gain and Advantage by the said Captain Walr●nd , and the Broomes , his assistants and adherents , who have made much spoil upon the Country , and out of Envy to the said Robert Abbott , because he would not vote for such Persons as he and many others thought not fit to be chosen to sit in Parliament ; and as it s reported part of the said 40 l. distributed to several Persons of Ivelchester , who are not th● Poor , but paid as a Gratuity or Reward for their Service , in voting against the present Members of Parliament for that Town . Mention being made before , pag. 73. that the Widdow Tyler was fined 4 l. for being at her Husbands burial , it may be noted , she had two Cows taken from her for the said fine , worth 9 l. AN ACCOUNT Of Such as Dyed in Prison AND PRISONERS FOR THE Testimony of Truth & a Good CONSCIENCE ; From the Year 1660. to the Year 1680. Berkshire . ANne Hatt of Reading , Widdow , taken out of a peaceable Meeting in Reading the 15th of the 2d moneth , 1666 , and committed to Prison by William Armorer , called a Justice , for six Moneths , for being at the said Meeting ; and being kept close in Prison in the heat of Summer , and the Prison being thronged with Prisoners , she finished her Testimony to the Truth in Prison by Death , the 19th of the 6th Moneth , 1666. being found Faithful in her day , in which she walked in Gravity , Sobriety , and the Fear of the Lord. William Tomson the 22d of the 11th moneth , 1664. taken out of a Meeting of the People of God at Reading by the said William A●morer , and detained a Prisoner until he Dyed . Walter Emmerton the 12th day of the 1st mon●th , 1665. taken out of a Meeting at Reading by William Armorer , and remained a Prisoner till he dyed . William Matth●ws and three more , summoned to appear at the Quarter-Sessions at Abingdon the 14th of the 5th moneth , 1663. where Humphry Hide sate Judge , who caused an Indictment to be read against them , for not being at the Church , so called , four Moneths past : The Court askt them , If they would go to Church and conform ? Their Answer was , They could not go thither , for that they had never enjoyed the Presence of God in that place . Whereupon the Court fined them 20 l. a piece , by an old Statute made against Papists , and for refusing to pay the Fines they were committed to Goal , where William Matthews finished his Testimony by Death . Dorothy Clarke taken out of a Meeting in Reading the 1st of the 3d moneth , 1664. by William Armorer , and sent to Prison , finished her Testimony by Death the 3d of the 12th moneth , 1670. Joseph Coale apprehended the 13th of the 5th moneth , 1664. the manner of his taking was thus : The aforesaid William Armorer coming , according to his usual Practice , to take such as were assembled in the fear of God at the House of Thomas Curtis of Reading , he found only seven Women and Maids , and caused his Clerk to make their Mittimus presently , and to send them to Prison ; in the mean time his man John Venter opens a Door , and goes into Thomas Curtis's House , where meeting the Maid , he askt her , If there were any in the house more than the Family ? She answered , No ; whereupon he went out and she lockt the Door ; but presently after W. Arm●rer knockt again at the Door , the Maid b●ing in a fear , her Master , Mistress and Man-Servant being all in the Goal , did not open the Door ; whereupon VV. Armorer pluckt some kind of Instrument out of his Pocket , and pickt the Lock , and searcht from Room to Room , till he found Joseph , who being a weakly man , had taken something that Morning ; after some Questions , he took Joseph by the Arm , and said , He must come with him . J. C. said , Whither must I go ? Said he , To Goal . To Goal ! said J. C. What have I done ? W. Armorer said , I will tell you what . And being pulling him down Stairs said , Will you take the Oath of Allegiance ? and so made a Mittimus , and sent him to the House of Correction , for refusing the Oath of Allegiance , and afterwards he was from thence sent to the common Goal , where the 26th day of the 2d moneth , 1670. he laid down the Body , and dyed a Faithful Witness to the Truth . William Dobson of Brightwell was Arrest●d for Tythes at the suit of Ralph Whistler , and carried to Read●ng G●al the beginning of the 7th moneth , 1675. and dyed a Prisoner the last day of the 3d moneth , 1677. Bedfordshire . John Rush of Kempston Hardwick Imprisoned at the Suit of Priest Wells of Wilkhamsted , because for Conscience sake he could not put into the Priests Mouth , and give him Tythes , though he did no work for him : After a Years Imprisonment he laid down the Body ( bearing a Faithful Testimony until Death ) the 1st day of the 11th moneth , 1661. Bristol . THe 7th day of the 6th moneth , 1664. being the first day of the Week , John Knight , Mayor of Bristol , and Alderman Creswick went to a Meeting of the People called Quakers , and sent One Hundred Ninty Four of them to Prison , upon the Act made for Banishment , amongst whom these three Persons following were committed , and finished their Testimony by Death . Lydia Tovy , one of them , was committed to Newgate , being a Young Woman big with Child , and as she was put within the door of the Goal the Noisom Scent struck her very much : She abode in the Prison till the 7th day of that Week , in which time she grew very ill ; and on the Second day following she took her Bed , her hearing and seeing being taken from her , and her Child came dead from her that Night , and the next Morning being the third day of the Week she dyed also , and her Child and she were both laid in the Ground together ; yet the Mayor put her in the Warrant with the rest , to be detained in Prison till the 6th day of the 7th Moneth following . Alice Peachy , the Wife of William Peachy , a young Woman big with Child , was taken out of the same Meeting ; the Officers that took her out of the Meeting haled her rudely along before the Mayor , bidding her come along , one being behind her putting her forwards , which being beyond what she was able to do , it hurt her , and in her Face it was discovered presently , so she went home ill , and was delivered the next day , and never was well aftewards , but continued ill till the 14th day of the 6th Moneth , on which she dyed , her Husband being then a Prisoner in Bridewell . Mary Knight was also committed on the same day to Bridewell , and the next day being very ill , was suffered to go home to her Masters House , where she dyed about twelve days after of a violent Feavor , her Body being brought to Bridewell , from thence to be buried , being a Prisoner , there she bled afresh at the Nose for about an Hour together . Cumberland . LAncelott Wilson of Tallentrie in Bridkirk Parish in the 6th moneth , 1662. being served with a Warrant to appear before John Lamplugh , Francis Salkeld and Richard Tolson ( called Justices ) at Dovenby , for being at a Meeting , the Justices demanded Bond of him to appear at the next Quarter Sessions , and for refusing to give Bond , he with some other Friends were committed to Prison , and at the Assizes they were all Indicted for Meeting , &c. and because they could not then give Bond to appear , &c. at the next Assizes , they were still detained Prisoners ; but before the next Assizes Lancelott Wilson , being a weakly man , finished his Testimony by Death . Cambridgshire . 1661. MAry Prior of Over , an antient Widdow , and a Grave Honourable Woman in the Truth , being summoned to the Sessions , for not going to the Steeple-house Worship , the Justices at the Sessions cast her into Prison , where they kept her , till she by Death finished her Testimony against the false Church , Worship and Teachers ; she was buryed in Cambridge Castle-Yard the 5th of the 10th moneth , 1661. it being her desire as a Witness against them . 1663. Thomas Richardson the 16th of the 2d moneth , 1663. was taken out of a peaceable Meeting in Ely at the house of George Thorowgood , by Warrant from William Holder and Henry Bruncell , two Priests , and also called Justices , who committed him to Wisbich Goal , where , though he was an antient man , near Sixty Years of Age , he was very hardly used in the Goal , and went through great Hardships , his Friends and Relations being not suffered sometimes to come at him to bring him necessaries but what they could put through a Hole in the Door , and kept a whole Winter without suffering him to have so much Wood was would make one Fire ; and he lodged on Straw . Whilst he was in Prison it pleased God to visit this his Faithful Servant with Sickness , and on the 13th day of the 8th moneth , 1665. he dyed in Prison for the Testimony of Jesus and Word of God. 1670. One called a Justice in the Isle of Ely , perceiving , after much Cruelty used , they could not prevail to make the People called Quakers forsake their assembling themselves together , he was much enraged , and went and beat several of them very much , and knockt down Steven Clarkson to the Ground , in so much that the Standers by said , So , there is one knockt on the Head ; but he came to himself again , and lived about five moneths after , but complained of that blow to his dying day . John Feast of Sutton Imprisoned by John Marshall , Priest in the same Town , for Tythes , dyed a Prisoner on the 11th day of the 4th Moneth , 1674. John Addams of Haddenham dyed a Prisoner for Tythes , being buried the 27th day of the 2d Moneth , 1674 John Beadles of Chatteris , Imprisoned by Owen Fan of Ramsey , dyed a Prisoner for Tythes . Peter Hill of the same Town , Imprisoned by William Strong Priest in the same Town , dyed a Prisoner for Tythes . Cornwall . EDward Anger of Minster-Parish , Imprisoned the 17th of the 3d Moneth , 1675. ( by John Austis prosecuted , being Register of the Arch-Deacons Court ) because for Conscience sake he could not pay towards the Repair of the Church ( so called ) and dyed a Prisoner the 9th day of the 4th Moneth , 1676. Thomas Deeble Imprisoned for the same cause , by a Writ De Excommunicat● Capiendo , at the Suit of the said John Austis the 7th Moneth , 1676. and dyed a Prisoner in the 11th Moneth , 1677. Devonshire . IOnathan Collier of the Parish of Culleton Rawleigh , Imprisoned in Stoak Cannon the 30th day of the 5th Moneth , 1669. being prosecuted by John Pope and William Tricky , Wardens of Culleton , for not going to the Steeple-house , and for not paying to the Repair of the same , for which he was Excommunicated by Edward Master , called Doctor of Law , and Vicar general to the Bishop of Exon in Spiritual things ; and upon that Excommunication the said Jonathan was apprehended by a Writ De Excommunicato Capiendo , and imprisoned , and remained a Prisoner until the 15th day of the 1st Moneth , 1670. and then finished his Testimony by Death , bearing a faithful Testimony to the Lord and his Truth . Thomas Burgan of Artacton , Taylor , was Imprisoned by a Writ De Excommunicato Capiendo , for not going to the Steeple-house , and for a Contempt of the Bishops Court , in not appearing , prosecuted by Richard Cr●ssen Priest , and Andrew Slathen , Warden of Artacton . The said Thomas Burgan was brought to Prison to the Sheriffs Ward in Thomas Parish in Exon , the 9th of the 2d Moneth , 1676. and was continued a Prisoner until he dyed , which was on the 19th day of the 4th Moneth following ; and all the time both in Health and Sickness whilst a Prisoner , witnessed a good Confession , and left a good Testimony behind him . William Woolcott of Bridford Parish , Weaver , a labouring man , having a Wife and two small Children , and their dependancies was on the Labour of his Hands , was presented to the Bishops Court , through the Instigation of Bernard Gillard , Priest of the said Parish , stirring up his Parishoners , and gathering Money to pay the charge of a Writ De Excommunicato Capiendo , to Imprison him for having Meetings at his House , and not conforming ; by which Writ he was apprehended and sent to Prison , and after he had been there eighteen Moneths , the Bailiffs said , They must have 20 s. of him : Being a very poor man , the Keeper took pity on him , and let him have Liberty to go forth to Work ; but the Bishops Officers hearing of it , threatned the Keeper to have him fined , and put out of his place ; whereupon this poor Man was kept from working , and was forced to be relieved by his Friends , his Wife being a sickly Woman , and in a distressed condition : And the said William Woolcott was continued Prisoner till the 27th of the 3d Moneth , 1676. and then departed this Life a Prisoner , being a good Savour to the Truth all the time of his Imprisonment . Witnesses , John Gannicliffe , Robert Welch . Durham . RIchard Errington of Gretham near Stockton , Farmer , taken from a Meeting a● Thomas Yooles the 9th of the 7th Moneth . 1665. and had before Ralph Davison and Joseph Naylor , Justices , and by them committed to Durham Goal , upon the Act for Banishment , at the Quarter-Sessions , the 4th of the 8th Moneth following , being brought to the Bar , Samuel Davison Judge of the Court , past Sentence on him , viz. to be banished to Barbadoes , and to be kept Prisoner in the House of Correction till he could be Shipt , where he remained until he became weak in Body ; and being not likly to recover , his Friends moved for a removal of him to a Friends House , for better Conveniencies , but it was denyed ; so that about the beginning of the 6th Moneth , 1667. he laid down the Body for the Testimony of the Truth , after he had suffered Imprisonment near three Years . Gloucestershire . UPon the 10th day of the 5th Moneth , 1670. there being a Meeting of the People of God , called Quakers , in Cirencester , there came one Thomas Masters , called a Justice , with others , to break up the Meeting , he asked them , what their end in Meeting was ; one replyed , We meet in the fear of the Lord , and for no Evil end , the Lord knows , but to wait upon him . And to worship him too , Do you not ? said he : To which Answer was made Yes . That 's enough , said he , we need no further Evidence . But proceeded to Fine them , and in a Rage laid Hands on them , calling his Company to help him pull them down Stairs , the Meeting being in an upper Room , John Cooke , one of the Officers , a wicked man , cryed , Clear the Stairs : And thereupon Robert Jenkins , one reported to be a Hang-man , threw several down Stairs , and amongst the rest the Widdow Hewlings , an Antient honourable Woman , who by the Violence of the fall was lamentably bruised , and her Shoulder seperated , so that she could not be recovered , but dyed within a Moneth after , a Woman greatly beloved in those parts , and much missed , being a skilful Midwife , and ready to do good unto all . John Webly of Brockworth , a Man about fourscore and seven Years of Age , for the value of about 20 s. Tythes , was by Christopher Guy , Impropriator , in the Year 1660. cast into Gloucester Goal among Thieves , where he lay a full Year , and there dyed the same day was a twelve Moneth that he was committed ; Henry Guy , Brother to the said Christopher , asked his Wife , when he was sick in Prison , Whether she would pay or not ? she denying the payment , he told her , If her Husband dyed , he should not be buried , but carried up to the top of the House , and the Walls should be beset , and the Fowles of the Air should eat him . This he spoke in the hearing of their Son and Daughter , John and Hester Webly . Richard Wetmore for not Conforming , Imprisoned by an Excommunicato Capiendo Writ , sued by the Chancellor of the Bishops Court at Gloucester ; soon after he was put into the Goal dyed . Hampshire . 1661. WIlliam Rutter of Portsmouth , in the 12th Moneth , 1660. for being at a peaceable Meeting in the said Town , was committed to a stinking close Prison by Richard Lardner , Mayor of the said Town , and not suffered to go forth to take the Air , where he took much Cold and fell Sick , and upon the 14th day of the 1st Moneth , 1661. dyed a Prisoner . Henry Streater of Bramshot ( being in the Year 1660. at a Meeting at his Brothers House at Alton ) was by Humphry Bennet and others , called Justices , committed to the Common Goal at Winton , and there remained until the 1st day of the 2d Moneth , 1661. and then dyed . Thomas Willis of Totton was with other Friends committed to Prison in Southampton , by William Stanly Mayor , upon the 14th day of the 7th Moneth , 1662. for being at a Meeting , and was there detained Prisoner until he dyed , which was on the 18th day of the 2d Moneth , 1663. Humphry Smith a faithful Servant and Labourer in the Work of the Lord , being taken at a peaceable Meeting in Alton , was by Warrant from John Norton and Humphry Bennet committed to Winton Common Goal , the 14th day of the 8th Moneth , 1662. and there remained until he died , which was on the 6th day of the 3d Moneth , 1663. ☞ Thomas Penford , a poor Black-Smith , having a Wife and three Children , on the 3d day of the 8th Moneth , 1664. being Excommunicated by the Bishops Court , for not paying three Pence towards the Repair of the Steeple-house , and for no other cause , was Imprisoned in the common Goal in Winton , where after he had remained a Prisoner three Years and a half , he dyed a faithful Witness for the Lord against such Oppression . Nicholas Complin , in the last day of the 3d Moneth , 1663. and several others were taken up ( upon suspition that they were intended to meet near Ringwood ) and had before Henry Br●mfeild , called a Justice , who though he said , he did believe they were not at a Meeting ; yet he said , he did believe they did intend to meet together , and made a Mittimus and sent them all to the common Goal in Winton , and at the Assizes they were fined 10 l. a Man , and ordered to be kept in Prison till payment , where they were detained close Prisoners for above half a Year , and the said Nicholas Complin dyed then a Prisoner ; He was an Upright Just man , and had a good Repute in the County where he lived , by all that knew him . Hartfordshire . WIlliam Pratt and Thomas Leavens about the 5th Moneth , 1664. were taken at a Meeting at the House of Robert Pryor , in the Parish of Hatfeild , and had to the Prison in Hartford , and at the next Assizes were tendred the Oath of Allegiance , by Orlando Bridgman Judge of the Court ; and for refusing for Conscience sake to Swear , were again returned to Prison , where after a long Imprisonment , they both dyed Prisoners . John Winchester and Thomas Harris committed to Prison for meeting to wait upon the Lord , about the 4th moneth , 1661. continued Prisoners until the 14th day of the 5th moneth , 1662. and then being brought to the Quarter-Sessions , the Oath of Allegiance was tendred to them , and for refusing to Swear for Conscience sake , and in obedience to the Command of Christ J●sus , were recommitted to the County Goal , where they remained Prisoners until they dyed . Huntingtonshire . SImon Sandford Imprisoned at the Suit of John Morton , Priest of Aukenbury Cum Weston , and was kept in Prison near a Year and a half ; and being released , was after Imprisoned with Francis Lamstead , when many were cast into Prison for Meeting , and refusing to Swear , in the Year 1660. they both fell sick , and Francis dyed the 7th day of the 1st Moneth , and Simon the 18th day of the 12th Moneth , 1660. Herefordshire . CHarles Joxes of Bishopp Standford , taken from his Imployment in the 11th Moneth , 1660. and had before a Magistrate , who tendred him the Oath of Allegiance , and because for Conscience sake he could not Swear , he was committed to Prison , where he fell sick , and on the 20th day of the 2d Moneth , 1661. finished his Testimony by Death , leaving a sweet and good Savour behind him . Thomas Longvell taken out of a peaceable Meeting waiting upon the Lord , and carried before the Bailiff of Lemster , the 22d of the 11th Moneth , 1660. who tendred him the Oath of Allegiance , and because he Conscientiously refused to Swear , he was committed first to Prison in Leominster , and from thence sent to the County Goal in Hereford ; in the second Moneth in the Year 1661. he finished his Course by laying down his Life for the Truth in the Go●l ; and when he was dead , the Goaler would not let his Friends have the Co●ps to Bury , because they would not pay the Coroner his Fees ; but after he had kept the Corps a Day and a Night , buried it without the Coroner sitting on it , and carried it in an undecent manner ; for the Hangman tyed the Coffen upon a Ladder , and four Fellons carried the Corps , and the Hangm●n went before , and the Go●ler behind ; and when they put him in the Grave , the H●ngman said , He lived like a Hog , and should be buried like a Dog : And said , But that it is wet Weather , he would have made a Grave under the Gallows , and have buried him there , and have drove a Stake through him . Kent . WIlliam Watcher and Mary his Wife , going to the B●rying Gro●nd wi●h the Body of Samuel York●on their K●nsman , & being at the Grave whilst John C●op the Pries● was reading his Form , Mary spoke these Words , sayin● The Blind lead the Blind , until both fall into the Ditch . ● which the P●iest was in great Rage , and stirred up the Magistra●es to send for William and Mary before them , and to require Bond of them for their good Behaviour ; for refusal of which , they were both committed to Maidstone Goal , ( though William sp●ke not to them ) where they lay both about ten Weeks , and then William laid down his Life in Bonds , after which M●ry was soon delivered by the Judge of Assize , though much contrary to the Will of the Pri●st , who said , She 〈◊〉 lie t●ere till she dyed also . Henry Wicken of Sutton Valence committed about the 11th Moneth , 1663. for not paying Tythes or Church-Scot , so called , remained a Prisoner until the 13th of the 11th Moneth , 1664. and then laid down his Life in Bonds for the Truth 's sake . Joseph Stonehouse , John Day , Marke Feilder , John Purdy and Rebecca Elkinton , all dyed in Prison for their Testimony to the Truth since the Year 1661. Nicholas Homewo●d of Swingfeild , an Innocent man , and yet a great Sufferer , for his faithful Testimony against Tythes , the 28●h day of the 9th Moneth , 1665. was taken by a Common-Law Writ , at the Suit of Edward Wildish an Impropriator , for refusing to pay him Tythes , and carried to the County Goal at Canterbury : And though this Prosecutor had this Poor man's Body in Prison , he did in a very unreasonable manner take and carry away his Corn at his Pleasure ; from Canterbury Goal he was removed to Maidstone , and from thence his Adversary removed him to the Kings Bench , where he remained a Prisoner until the 19th day of the 7th Moneth , 1676. which was about eleaven Years Imprisonment , and then finished his Testimony by Death . Thomas Friend of Allington in the County of Kent , sued by Priest Slaiton of Seventon , for not paying him Tythes , and Imprisoned in the Common Goal in Dunstons near Canterbury , the 14th of the 8th Moneth , 1678. where he remained Prisoner until the 5th of the 10th Moneth in the same Year , and then laid down his Body in Peace , bearing a faithful Testimony to the last against the Hi●eling Priest : In his Imprisonment he was hardly used by Henry Landman the Goaler and his Wi●e , who put him in a bad place amongst Fellons and Murtherers , and when he was sick , would not let him have any Fire , and sometimes his Friends kept from him ; and the Day he departed , it was earnestly desired of the Goaler's Wife , to grant a few Charcole in a Chaffendish to warm something for the sick Man , telling her how weak he was ; which Request she denyed as one void of any Pity or Compassion . Leicestershire . 1661. EDward Muggleston of Whitwick Parish , sued in the Exchequer by Priest Bennet , for not paying Tythes ; After several Years Imprisonment falling sick , and after two or three Weeks Sickness , ●on the 4th of the 9th Moneth , 1661. he was released from the Cruelty of his Prosecutors , for he finished his Testimony in sweet Peace with the Lord , against the corrupt Priesthood , and dyed a faithful Witness to the Truth , and left a good Savour behind him . Lancashire . 1665. OLiver Atherton Imprisoned in Lancaster Castle in a bad smoky place , at the Suit of the Countess of Derby for Tythes , fell sick and dyed in Prison in the Year 1665. leaving a good Savour behind him ; and a little before he dyed , he sent her Word , That if nothing would satisfie her but his Blood , it was like ere long she might have it ; and in a little time after he dyed . John Saeterthwait and William Sands , both Imprisoned in Lancaster Castle for Conscience sake ; both dyed about the same time , and finished their Testimony for the Truth . London and Middlesex . DAniel Abraham being Imprisoned in Newgate , with about three Hundred more , for refusing for Conscience sake to Swear ; in the 12th Moneth , 1660. fell sick and dyed . Walter Bellamy being at the same time ( and for the same cause ) Imprisoned in Newgate , and there being one Hundred imprisoned in that Room where he was ; it was judged that so many being together for want of convenient Air and Lodging , he fell sick , and in the 3d Moneth , 1661. he dyed a Prisoner . John Stanton having a Wife and several Children , was taken out of a Meeting by rude Souldiers , and committed to Newgate ; and falling sick the 21st of the 4th Moneth , 1661. dyed a Prisoner . Thomas Kirby a Young man , a Habberdasher by Trade , being newly out of his time , was taken out of a Meeting , and committed to Prison to Newgate , where he fell sick , and on the 1st day of the 5th Moneth , 1662. he finished his Testimony by Death . Richard Hubberthorne , a faithful Minister of Christ Jesus , being declaring the Truth at the Bull and Mouth Meeting , was taken by Souldiers , and carried before Richard ●rown , who as soon as he came before him , took hold of the Brim of his Hat and lugged it upon his Face , and committed him to Newgate , where he and two more lay in a dark close Hole , and falling sick on the 17th of the 6th Moneth , 1662. he laid down his Life for the Testimony of Truth . Anthony Skillington being at a Meeting of the Lords People the 30th of the 5th Moneth , 1662. was by the rude Souldiers taken out of the Meeting , and brought before R. Brown , who sent him to Prison , with many more ; and they demanded a free Prison , and so the Goaler put them in th Hole , which is the place they put Fellons in after they are condemned to dye , and ●here a eleaven of them remained two Nights , and then were had out , and put in a stinking Hole amongst the common Fellons , and Anthony often complained of the bad Smell , before he fell sick ; and by reason of want of Ai● and such a stinking Smell , he and several more fell sick and dyed , and the Jury that viewed his Body , concluded that they did believe his close Imprisonment and the stinking Smell furfeited his Body , which was the cause of Death , it being in the heat of Summer . John Giles , a faithful Minister of the Tru●h , was taken out of a Meeting , where he was ministring the Truth , and committed to Newgate by Richard Brown , where fall●●g sick the 29th of the 6th Moneth , 1662. he laid down his Life for the Truth 's sake . William Watson of the Parish of White-Chappel , was taken from a Meet●ng , and commi●t●d to the common Goal in Newgate , where he fell si●k , a●d on the 25th of the 6th Moneth , 1662. dyed a Priso●er . William Eldridge and John Shoot were both committed to Newgate by Richard Browne , for Meeting to Worship God ; and they fell sick , and the latter end of the 6th Moneth , 1662. both dyed , and were carried from Newgate together . Richard Bradlay for the same cause was committed to New-Prison , where he fell sick , and the 1st day of the 7th Moneth , 1662. he laid down his Life for the Truth 's sake . Henry Boreman being committed to Newgate for selling Books , written by the People called Quakers , fell sick and dyed in Newgate the 17th of the 8th Moneth , 1662. and left a Wife great with Child , and three small Children behind him . Thomas Austee and William Hawkes being committed to Newgate by Richard Browne , for Meeting to Worship God fell sick , and both laid down their Bodies in the Prison for the Truth 's sake . Thomas Rogers , a Young man , was also taken out of a Meeting of the People of God , and committed to the common Goal , in Newgate , where he fell sick about the 10th Moneth , and dyed in a short time a Prisoner for the Truth of God. Marke Close and Gabriel Shaller being committed by Richard Browne , for the Cause aforesaid , to the common Goal at Newgate , both fell sick , and about the latter end of the 10th Moneth , 1662. both dyed . John Cooper was by Richard Browne committed to the common Goal in Newgate , for the same Cause , where he finished his Testimony by Death , the 30th of the 10th Moneth 1662. Thomas Hankler , William Pryor and Samuel Petchett , being committed by Richard Browne , for Meeting to worship God ; about the 6th or 7th of the 11th moneth , 1662. dyed in the common Goal in Newgate , William P●●or leaving a Wife and Children behind him ; and Samuel Petchett was a Young man , newly come up out of the Country about Business . John Trowell being at a Meeting at the Bull and Mouth the latter end of the 6th moneth , 1662. was dragged out of the Meeting by rude Souldiers , and one of them knockt him down for dead in the Street , and then trampled upon him in the Street , and he lay sick ten dayes , and then dyed , and his Body was carried to the Bull , where he received his Bruises and Blows , and the Coroner and Jury viewed his dead Body , who judged him to be Murthered , his Body being black with Bruises , and even Rotten like a Jelly : It cannot well be expressed what griveous Blows he received , one of the Officers having a Club in one hand about a yard long , which seemed to be as much as he could well handle for bigness and weight , with which he laid on about him without mercy , as did the most of his party , regarding neither Age nor Sex. One was knockt down five times . and the Blood lay in the Streets , and ran down mens Faces and Shoulders . Humphry Bache and ●umphry Brewster were both committed to Newgate for Meeting , and by the Closeness of the Prison , their Bodies were corrupted , so that in a short time after they were released , they dyed . Humphry Leaver , Richard Davis , Robert Cross , Thomas Wingreen and John Ratcliff , were all Imprisoned in the common Goal in Newgate by Richard Browne , for Meeting to worship God ; and as it was judged , through the Smoke and Noisom Smells their Bodies were corrupt●d , so that soon after they were released they dyed . Edward Burroughs a Faithful Labourer and Minister of the Lord , being Imprisoned in Newgate for declaring the Truth to the People at the Bull and Mouth ; he remained a Prisoner near three Quarters of a Year ; and notwithstanding the King sent an Order under his Secretary's Hand and Seal to Release him , yet Richard Browne would not Release him . The beginning of the 12th moneth the said Edward Burroughs fell sick , and the 14th day of t●e same moneth he finished his Testimony by Death . An Account of such as Dyed by reason of their Imprisonment ; Prosecuted upon the Act for Banishment , 1664. John Clark John Lewis Hannah Trigg Hannah Drewry John Wilkinson John Hales William Tomkins Robert Twinn Henry Haslam John Palmer John Cooke Edward Baker Joseph Stonehouse Mary Draper Andrew Andrews John Willbore Richard Twinn Mary Davis George Hide Hannah Cooke Mary Mile Henry Woodward Richard Audley Mary Travers Roger Evans Benjamin Greenwell Since the prosecution of the Act for Banishment all these Persons sealed their Testimony with the loss of their Innocent Lives , which was occasioned by reason of their being crowded by great Numbers into one Prison , viz. Newgate , where for want of Prison-Room and convenient Lodging , having not room to lie down one by another , so that many were constrained to walk upon the Leads in Newgate in the Night-season , which was very high and open both to Wind and Weather , and with the Infections and Noisom smells that were in the Prison , they fell sick and dyed , some in the Prison , and others in a few dayes after they were let out , many of them being sentenced to be Transported . Elizabeth Pike Jane Powell Peter Penington John Fox John Hors●y Dorothy Hall Vincent Gerrard William Newman Richard T●mp●on Thomas Clarke William Matthews John Gabb Bartholomew Hall Matthew Jackson Christop . Dickenson J●hn Noble J●hn ●haplin Henry Taylor Arthur Baker Deborah Harding Anne Royley Nathaniel Harding Edmund Berkly Rachell Jackson Laurence Aplyn Edward Walker Edward Lee. The Sickness being in Newgate , there was One Hundred Forty Five of the People of God called Quakers then Prisoners , being sentenced to be Banished ; Fifty Five of which were forced on Board a Ship to be Transported , after their long Imprisonment ; and the Sickness being in the Ship into which they were put , they were thronged all the men together in one place between Decks , where they could not stand Upright , so that the Distemper being once amongst them , it occasioned most of them to be infected , so that all these Persons above-named dyed on Board , some at Bugbyes hole , and the rest beyond Gravesend . Robert Hayes being sentenced to be Banished , was taken out of Newgate with two more of his Friends , and put in a Boat to be carried to Gravesend ; and the said Robert being taken fasting out of Newgate , and having been in a course of Purging Physick , was in that case , ( upon scarce any warning given ) early one Morning hurried from Newgate , and having no outward Refreshment till he came to Gravesend , took cold and fell Sick , and in a short time after he was put on Board he dyed . 1665. About the same time that th● aforesaid Persons dyed on Board the Ship , there dyed these Fifty Two Persons in Newgate , who lay Prisoners , most of them being sentenced to be Banished , and the rest upon the third Conviction . Edmund Ward John West Edward Bull Thomas Wicks John Frith Thomas Davis John Somerfeild John Sammon George Pryor John Smith John Tesdell Mathias Gardner Richard Lambert Joshua Clare George Taylor George Evans John Crane Nicholas Blye Thomas Kemsey Hugh Carter Margaret Welsby Bethiah Marloe Edward Harvy Daniel Read James Sweet James Portsmouth Ambross Cock Mark Beecroft John Wiggins Hugh West John Rotten Cuthbert Harle Benj. Laurence Geo. Hellingsworth J●hn Cowdry Henry Wilkinson Malachy Dudly Aug. Th●rrowgood Christopher Nicholls John Howard Richard Spackman James Williams Daniell Hawkins John Bates Francis White John Francis Robert Thomas Joseph Haugh Mary Powell Martin Crosh●e John Fitz Gerrard Sarah Leigh . About this time there were eight Persons taken out of a Meeting in the Liberty of VVestminster ▪ and committed to the Gate house by the D. of Albemarle , where four of them dyed , viz. Stephen VVhite , William Avelin , Robert Towerland and Samuel S●onh●use Somersetshire . RIchard Adams dyed in Prison the 17th day of the 8th Moneth , 1660. for not paying Tythes to Priest Bryan of Limington , which Priest was afterwards almost Distracted before he dyed . John Combe of Brent dyed in Prison the 22d day of the 10th moneth , 1660. for not paying Tythes to James Blacklock and Thom●s Gold , Farmers of Tythes ; since Blacklock dyed , and Gold decayed . Thom●s Lockier dyed in Prison for not paying Tythes to Priest Horsey ●f East Lydford , who would not suffer him to be buryed , but forcibly took him from the Bearers , 1661. Hugh Willmington of Barwick dyed a Prisoner the 4th of the 10th moneth , 1661. after he had been several moneths a Prisoner , for not paying Tythes to Thomas Compton , Impropriator . Thomas Deane of Kingsbury dyed the 24th of the 2d moneth , 1661. for not paying Tythes to VVilliam Strode , Impropriator . George Adams dyed in Prison the 26th of 6th moneth , 1663. being committed to Prison ( for Meeting to wait upon the Lord ) by Francis Paulet and Thomas Carry , and fined 3 l. 6 s. 8 d. by Judge Terrill ( without hearing him at Charde ) twelve Miles from Ilchester , where he then lay Sick. John Evans the younger , having been a Prisoner for some years , being taken at a Meeting of the Lords People , and commited by one called Sir John Warr , and afterwards had the Sentence of a P●aemunire past upon hi● by Judge Foster , to be Imprisoned during Life ; the 14th day of the 1st Moneth , 1664. was set at Liberty by Death . John VVall of Eddington being taken at a peaceable Meeting of the Lords people , and brought be●ore VVilliam Ball , called Justice , he was scornfully entreated by him , and his Hat and Cap violently struck off his Head by one White , the Justices Clark , in his Masters presence , who disdainfully bid him give the man his Night-cap again , and sent him to Ilchester Goal , where at the Sessions he was brought out into the cold Air ( being sick and languishing ) before the Justices at a Tavern , where he was badly entreated , and his Hat and Cap again taken off his Head , when he had been in a sweat just before . The Justices , after some scornful and reproachful Language ( without shewing any pity to his person or principle ) returned him to Prison again , where his cold encreased , and he daily grew weaker , and on the ●th of the 9th moneth , 1665. finished his Testimony by Death . VVilliam Hodges , after six years and ten weeks Imprisonment dyed in Prison the 23d of the 6th mon●th , 1667. committed by Francis Paulett and Thomas Curry , for Meeting and refusing to Swear . Henry Leverick taken out of a peaceable Meeting , and committed to Prison to Ilchester , where he had a●terwards the sentence of Praemunire past upon him by Judge F●ster , he dyed a Prisoner the 3d of the 1st moneth , 1668. being well-nigh eighty years of Age. Richard Councell dyed in Prison for not paying Tythes to Priest Smith's Widdow of Badgworth ; the Goal-keepers , for not feeding them with Money , were hard to him . Samuel Clothier of Alford , an Honest , Faithful and Upright man , who suffered Imprisonment at several times , at the Suit of Thomas Earle , Priest of Alford , for not p●ying Tythes , Samuel looking upon it to be an Antichristian Imposition , and contrary to the Testimony of Christ Jesus and the Word of God , chose rather to suffer , than to make Shiprack of Faith and a good Conscience ; and after about ten years and three m●neths Imprisonment in all , upon the account aforesaid , he finished his Testimony by Death , being a Pri●oner at Ilchester the 26th day of the 6th moneth , 1670. and went to his Grave in Peace with God , and hath left a good favour behind him . William Kent of Purlock for Conscientiously refusi●g to go to Church ( so called ) and conform to hear Common Prayer , was Excommunicated at the Bishops Court at Wells , at the Suit and by the Promotion of Haumet Ward , Priest of Purlock , called , Dr. in Divinity , but in truth an Actor in Iniquity , and upon Significavit was taken upon the first day of the Week by Edward Stout and Robert Holbourn , Deputy Bailiffs , and on the 26th day of the 1st moneth , 1667. was had to Ilchester Goal , and in Testimony for God , against the false Worshippers of the World , he finished his Testimony by Death at Ilchester the 1st of the 11th moneth , 1670. Thomas Budd on the 22d day of the 4th moneth , 1670. departed this Life after he had been Prisoner at Ilchester about eight Years and four Moneths , for Meeting , and not Swearing , being under the Sentence of a Premuni●e . Some hours before his Death he dec●ared to this eff●ct ; That he had renewed his Engagements and Covenants with God , and was therein satisfi●d , and d●d hope and believe , the Lord would sustain him in Life and Death with the Ri●ht Hand of his Righteousness ; and did greatly rejoyce and bless God that all his Children were Engaged in the Way of the Lord , &c. Thomas Parsons of Portishead dyed a Prisoner the 25th of the 1st moneth , for meeting with the Lords Pe●ple to worship him , and refusing to Swear , according ●o the command of Christ , who saith , Swear not at all ; c●mmitted by Hugh Smith , Edward Gorges and Hugh Tyute , Justices , so called . ●ucy Travers , an antient Widdow , the 25th of the 1st moneth , 1674. dyed , being prosecuted to Death for two pence offering Money , by Priest Kittley of Queen-Camell , she being not an Inhabitant , but came to visit her Daughter , who lived in that Parish . Surrey . THomas Patchen of Binscomb an upright man , although he was weak and ill in Bed in his own House , in the Year 1660. was taken and had before a Justice , who committed him to the White Lyon Prison in Southwark , which is above twenty seven Miles from his H●use , because he refused to Swe●r ; and though he was a man of a considerable Estate , they drove him twenty five Miles on foot , and were very cruel to him ; and when he came to the Goal the Goaler set the Thieves to Rob him for their Garnish , and they took from him in Clothes and Money ( which through the violence of his Distemper he was forced to c●nse●t to let them have ) 5 l. 15 s. And being thus cruelly dealt with , in a few dayes after he was committed , he dyed in the Prison a faithful Witness to the Truth . Thomas Birkly , Henry Bromly , John Whitlock and William Snooke , were all four committed to the White Lyon Prison for Meeting to Worship God , and falling sick , for want of Air and Conveniencies of Lodging , there being many more of their Friends & Brethren at the same time in Prison with them , fifteen of whom were sick at one time ; these four Persons finished their faithful Testimony for the blessed Truth , in the 9th moneth , 1662. John Dison , John Wostenholm and Richard Page being committed to the White Lyon Prison for the cause aforesaid , and about eighty more were kept in three little Rooms , where , by reason of the closeness of the place , they fell sick , and in a short time , ( being on the 6th of 10th moneth , 1662. ) they there finished their Testimony for the Truth by Death . Samuel Fisher a faithful Minister and Labourer in the Work and Service of the Lord , taken out of a Meeting of the Lords People in Charliwood in this County , and committed to Pri●on to the White Lyon , where he remained a Prisoner until he dyed , which was on the 31th of the 6th moneth , 1665. Joseph Fuce taken at the same Meeting at Charliwood , and for no other cause but declaring the Truth to edifie and build up the People of God in their most holy Faith , he being also a faithful Servant of the Lord , whose Mouth was opened by the Gift of God , to declare and publish his Truth , for which he was committed wi●h S. Fisher to the White Lyon Prison , and after he had remained a Prisoner several Years , he finished his Testimony by Death . 1665. John Shield another of the Labourers in the Work and Service of God was taken out of a Meeting at Horse-lie-down , and committed to Prison to the White Lyon , where he remained a Prisoner till about the 6th or 7th moneth , 1665. and then finished his Course as a faithful Witness for the Lord and his Truth . John Fothergill was taken out of a peaceable Meeting of the People of God at Glinford , and was had before one called a Justice , who committed him to Prison to the White Lyon , and being twenty five Miles from London , he was unwilling to put the Constable to so much trouble to guard him to Prison , but went himself , the Constable giving him his Mittimus ; and after he had remained some Moneths in Prison he fell sick of a Feavour , and about the 6th moneth , 1665. he finished his Course , and was taken away from the many Tryals and Troubles that the Righteous suffer in this World. Henry Day of the Parish of Magdalens Bermonsey in the County of Surrey , Taylor , Imprisoned in the County Goal , upon a Writ of Excommunicato Capiendo , prosecuted by George Nutkins , William Browne , John Arnold and Richard Burgin , Wardens and Overseers of the said Parish , for not paying towards the Repair of the Church ( so called ) after he had lain some time in Prison , fell sick , and dyed the 20th day of the 7th moneth , 1677. a Prisoner for the Testimony of a good Conscience . John Farmer of the same Parish , Carpenter , Imprisoned by the same Writ , at the same time and for the same cause , prosecuted at the same mens suit , remained a Prisoner until he dyed , which was the 12th day of November , 1680. Suffolk . THe 22d day of the 10th moneth , 1678. Robert Tomson of Broadfeild , and several of the People of God being assembled in a Yard ( being kept by the Officers out of the house they used to meet in at Woodbridge ) there came Thomas Bacon , called Justice , and Edmund Broome , Priest , and some Officers to break up the Meeting , and the said Justice committed eleaven of them to Prison to Melton Goal , where the said Robert Tomson soon after he was in Prison dyed a a Faithful Witness to the Lord's Truth , and for assembling with his People to Worship the Righteous God. Northton . JOhn Samm of Howend in the Parish of Haughton Conquest in the County of Bedford , a faithful Minist●r and Labourer in the Lords Work , William Lovel of Hardingston , and Joseph Gamage of Buggbrook being with several others assembled in the fear of God , to worship him in Spirit and Truth at Nuskutt the 23d day of 6th moneth . 1663. were apprehended by Warrant from John Willoughby , called Justice , who committed them to the common Goal , where there were above 〈◊〉 tha● lay in the low Goal , twelve steps below the Ground and in the night they had but little Air , being lockt d●wn betimes , and so kept close until the seventh hour the next Morning ; and John Snart the Wicked Goaler would not suffer their Friends to come at them ; with this hard Usage several of th● Prisoners fell sick and dyed ; the said John Samm dyed the 26th day of the 1st moneth , 1664. William Lovel dyed the 11th day of the 2d moneth , and Joseph Gamage dyed the 2d day of the 2d moneth . William Carr of Kislingberry committed to Prison upon the false Oath of Richard Harris , Priest of Kislingberry , who Swore , That William Carr gave a Treasonable Paper to one William Law , but he being present before the Justice , offered to take his Oath , That it was given him by another ; nevertheless the Justice committed William Carr , under a pretence of spreading Treasonable Papers , in which Paper there was indeed no Treason , but was written by a faithful Servant of the Lord ; and though William Carr was had to the Sessions , where instead of trying him about the Paper , the Oath of Allegiance was tendred to him , a Snare the Justice knew would hold him , for that for Conscience sake he could not Swear ; and for refusing to take an Oath he was sent to the Goal again , where , after eleaven Weeks Imprisonment in the low Goal , on the 25th day of the 1st moneth , 1664. he dyed . Richard Ashby on the 6th day of the 7th moneth , 1662. was taken out of a Meeting , where divers were assembled to Worship God at the House of Joseph Gamage at Buggbrooke , and being carried before John Willoughby , called Justice , he tendred him the Oath of Allegiance , and because for Conscience sake he refused to Swear , he was committed to the common Goal , where , on the 26th day of the 1st moneth , 1664. he dyed in the true Faith , and bore a good Testimony to the Glory of God. Thomas Arnold of Heyford Imprisoned at the suit of Priest Seller of Stow , because for Conscience sake he could not pay him Tythes ; he patiently took up the Cross and followed the Lord , and forsook his Wife , Children , Houses and Land freely , and laid down his Life willingly for the precious Truth 's sake ; after a Year and a halfs Imprisonment , he dyed on the 1st day of the 2d Moneth , 1664. And note further the Cruelty of this Priest , he was not satisfied with the Blood of Thomas Arnold , but on the 30th day of the 5th Moneth following , sent T. A's tender Wife to Goal , because she could not pay Tythes . William Ewins of Farthingstone Imprisoned in the County Goal , at the Suit of Thomas Hogg , Priest of the said Town , for not paying him Tythes ; he was Prisoner for the same one Year and a half , all which time he was kept in the patience of the Lamb , until he dyed , which was on the 1st day of the 2d Moneth , 1664. and his Wife dyed at home soon after ; and his Son and Daughter were both Sick of the same Disease , being infected in the nasty Hole where William dyed : And after the Young man recovered , because he refused to pay Tythes , the Priest cast him into Goal also in the same Year . Norfolk . EDward Shooter being at a peaceable Meeting in the fear of God in Lyn , on the 7th day of the 12th Moneth , 1663. was with others taken by Souldiers , and put into a nasty noisom stinking place , call'd a Cage , where they were kept for the vulgar Rabble to deride , till towards Night , and then were had before the Mayor , who tendred them the Oath of Allegiance ; and because for Conscience sake they refused to Swear , they were all sent to Bridewell , where they were kept two or three Nights and Dayes , and then sent them to the Goal , where they were severely used and kept most of them to l●dge on the hard Boards for a long time ; the Goaler being so Cruel , that he would suffer neither Fire nor Straw to be carried in to them , but what a poor Woman privately brought in , as if it had been Victuals in a Basket ; and in this condition they continued four or five M●neths , the Goaler also boarding up the Windows so close , that he deprived them what he could , both of Light and Air , and often denyed their Friends to come at them . In these deep Sufferings the aforesaid Edward Shooter fell sick and finished his Testimony to the Truth by Death . Mary Mawley of Wor●well , in the County of Norfolk , Widdow , committed Prisoner to Norwich Castle for the Tythe of a Goose , by Priest Mingly , then Priest of the said Town , who kept her a Prisoner in Norwich Castle till she dyed there . John Norris Imprisoned in Norwich Castle , upon the Writ De Excommunicato Capiendo , and there detained a Prisoner until he dyed . Francis Gardner , late of Tivitshall , in the Year 1675. was subpaened into the Exchequer by Chistopher Burrel , Priest of Pulham , for not paying Tythes ; and the said Priest caused him to be kept close Prisoner in the Castle at Norwich , and while he was so kept , the said Burrel went hims●lf with Servants , Horses and Cart into the Fields of the said Francis Gardner , and carried away what Corn they pleased , and yet continued the said Francis in Pris●n : And in the time of the Imprisonment of the said Francis he had very great Sickness , with which the said Barrel was acquainted , and was desired to give the s●id Francis some Liberty in that Sickness ; but the Priest denyed it , and endeavoured that he might have no more Liberty than the Prison afforded him ; so he was straightly kept unto his last , where he finished his Testimony , and laid down his Life the 7th of the 10th Moneth , 1678. having lain in Prison three Years and some Moneths . Oxfordshire . RObert Willet , being with several others at a peaceable Meeting in the Year 1662. was for the same Indicted at the Sessions , and when they appeared there , the Oath of Allegiance was tendred to them ; and for refusing for Conscience sake to Swear , the Judge of the Sessions fined them 5 l. a piece , and recommitted them : And of Robert Willet , they required Bond for his Good Behaviour ; but knowing his own Innocency , and that he had not mis-behaved himself , he denyed to give any Bond , and so was kept in Prison till he dyed . Richard Clenton of Woosum Mill was Imprisoned at the same time , and fell sick in Prison ; and suddainly after he was released , he laid down the Body . 1664. Thomas Reines of Great Tue Imprisoned upon a Writ De Excommunica●o Capiendo , being prosecuted in the Bishops Court at Oxford , in the 12th Moneth , 1664. and after he had remained six Years and a half in Prison , he laid down the Body , bearing a faithful Testimony to the Truth to the last ; and notwithstanding he was in Prison , the Priest of the Parish still prosecuted him for Tythes , and took away two Horses from him ( for the same ) worth 6 l. The 28th day of the 2d Moneth , in the Year 1679. William Staple of Hooknorton in the said County sued in the Exchequer , by Thomas Wise of the Town aforesaid Impropriator , for 4 l. 12 s. Tythes , & Imprisoned in the County Goal , where he was Prisoner until the 6th day of the 5th Moneth , 1679. and then dyed Prisoner , and finished his Testimony for Truth against Tythes . Thomas Deane of Hooknorton aforesaid , Imprisoned the 28th day of the 2d Month , 1679. at the Suit of the said Thomas Wise , for Tythe , valued at 2 l. 2 s. 6 d. in the County Goal at Oxford , where he continued Prisoner the space of three Moneths , or upwards , and then dyed a Prisoner . Pembrookeshire . HUgh Loyd of Haverford West , Clothier , Imprisoned for not taking the Oath of Allegiance , and dyed a Prisoner , 1666. Westmorland . 1663. FRancis Howgill about the latter end of the 5th moneth 1663. being at the Market at Kendall about his ordinary occasions , was summoned by the high Constable to appear before the Justices then present at a Tavern , who tendred him the Oath of Allegiance , as as they said , and committed him to Prison until the Assizes at Appleby , where he had the same tendred in Court by the Judge , and for not taking of it ( being against his Conscience to Swear at all ) was indicted , only had liberty to answer to the Indictment next Assizes after , and in the mean time a Goal delivery being at A●pleby , he was required to enter into Bond for the good Behaviour , only to ensnare and to bring him into further B●nds , and for denying was committed Prisoner ; he was brought before the Judges at two several Assizes after , and had the sentence of a Premunire past upon him by Judge Turner , but the chief Persecutor of him was one called Sir Philip Musgrave . The said F. Nowgill continued a Prisoner till the day of his Death , which was the 20th day of the 11th moneth . 1668. at the common Goal in Appleby , where he made a blessed End , having been a faithful Labourer in the Lords Work and Service . Warwickshire 1660. PEter Buckston committed Prisoner to the Goal in Warwick , by a Writ of Excommunicato Capiendo , and after two Years Imprisonment dyed a Prisoner . Mary Page of Wellingburrough , in the County of Northamton , in the Year 1663. going to Warwick to visit some of her Friends and Brethren in the Truth , who suffered for Conscience sake in Warwick Goal ; and being at an Inn with some others that came thither on the same account , and having newly supt , and were paying the Reckoning , in came one Kirby the Bailiff , and a Beadle ; and in a great rage would have sent them to the Goal that Night , had not the Inn-Keeper past his Word for their Appearance next Morning ; and when they appeared , the Oath of Allegiance was tendred them , and four Men and two Women were sent to the Goal , of which number this Mary Page was one , where she and the rest remained from Sessions to Sessions , and from Assize to Assize , until Mary Page fell sick ; in which Sickness she finished her faithful Testimony by Death , about the 9th Moneth , 1665. WALES . Montgomeryshire . EDward Evans committed to Prison , for refusing for Conscience sake to Swear ( the Oath of Allegiance being tendred to him ) he was Imprisoned the 20th day of the 9th Moneth , 1662. and being a tender man , and a Father of many Children ; after a Year & halfs Imprisonment , he fell sick , and in his Sickness he complained of the badness and dampness of the close Prison ; and in a short time after he was taken ill , he finished his Testimony by Death . Humphry Wilson taken from his House the 14th or 15th of the 10th Moneth , 1662. and the Oath of Allegiance tendred to him , and for refusing for Conscience sake to Swear , committed to be kept strickly in Prison ; and by reason of the coldness and dampness of the Prison he got a great Cold , and after about three Years Imprisonment dyed a Prisoner . Wiltsshire . 1660. WIlliam Bartlet of Market Lavington , for refusing for Conscience sake to pay 1 s. 6 d. smal Tythes was committed to the County Goal , where he remained until he dyed . Worcestershire . 1662. RIchard Walker , a peaceable man , taken out of a House at Broadway , by one Major Wild and his Souldiers , by whom he was forced to go to Worcester beyond his strength ( having been for twenty Years , or more , a sickly weakly man , but a man of good Repute among his Neighbours ) part of the way they made him go on Foot , but being weak and soon wearied , and not able to Travel so fast as their Horses , one of the Souldiers took him by the Arm and drew him along by force ; the said Wild also rode up against him , and run him down with his Horse-brisket , and pluckt out his Pistol , and threatned to Pistol him : In this fall the poor man's Head was much bruised ; at last they set him upon a Horse , and whipt the Horse up Hill and down Hill , without pity to his Weak condition ; and being brought to the Goal , being far from his tender Friends , he was soon taken out of the reach of these Oppressors , and finished his Testimony by Death . Witnesses , Robert Baylyes , William Webb . John Jenkins of Clifton in the said County Imprisoned upon a Writ De Excommunicato Caepiendo , dyed a Prisoner about nine Years since . Anne Heming of Bromsgrove Imprisoned for not paying Tythes , at the Suit of Priest Glin of Bromsgrove ; about seven Years since dyed a Prisoner . Yorkshire . BEnjamin Nicholson of Tickhill , and Abraham Decow of Fish Lake , both of the West-Riding , committed to Prison for refusing to Swear , ( the Oath of Allegiance being tendred to them ) where , being thronged , there being five Hundred & five in Prison in York Castle at that time upon that account , and for Meeting to worship God : The said Benjamin and Abraham both dyed Prisoners 1660. Robert Barwick , for refusing to Swear , was sent to York Castle the 24th of the 11th Moneth , 1660. and on the 28th day of the 1st Moneth he dyed a Prisoner . Peter Caiph of Wyton , was taken out of a peaceable Meeting by Constables , without any Warrant , and he and several others for refusing to Swear , were sent to York Castle , the 13th of the 12th Moneth , 1660. and the 2d day of the 2d Moneth , 1661. Peter dyed a Prisoner . Robert Sto●r of Hilston for the same cause was Imprisoned in York Castle , and on the 25th day of the 1st Moneth , 1661. he dyed a Prisoner . James Dunninge Imprisoned by John H●tfeild and William Sherwood of the West Riding , for not paying Tyth●s ; after he had suffered eight Moneths , dyed a Pri●●ner , 1662. George Croft Imprisoned by John Armitage of the West Riding , for Meeting to worship God , dyed a Prisoner the 6th of the 7th Moneth , 1662. having been two Moneths a Prisoner . John Crabtree Imprisoned by Roger Portington of the East Riding , for Meeting to worship God , dyed a Pris●ner the latter end of the 7th Moneth , 1662. having been above two moneths a Prisoner . William Towle Imprisoned for meeting to wait upon God , by Richard Robinson of the West Riding , dyed a Prisoner in the 10th moneth , 1662. having been a Prisoner near five moneths . Samuel Barber and William Hawksworth Imprisoned for the same cause by William Hawksworth of the East Riding , dyed Prisoners in the 10th moneth , 1662. John Rawson Imprisoned by the said William Hawksworth , for the same cause , dyed a Prisoner in the 11th moneth , 1662. John Deuell Imprisoned for the same cause , by Robert Euthobie of the West Riding ; after three moneths Imprisonment dyed in Prison in the 11th moneth , 1662. James Burnley Imprisoned for the same cause , by Edward Atkinson , Godfrey Lawson and Richard Armitage , dyed a Prisoner in the 11th moneth , 1662. after he h●d been Prisoner nine Moneths . William Carnby and William Broadhead , both sentenced to be banished for Meeting , &c. dyed both in Pris●n . 1665. John Nicholson of the East Riding committed to York Castle , by Warrant from the Deputy Lievtenant , being taken from his House without any just cause of Offence : In the Year 1665. after he had been some time in Prison fell sick and dyed . ☞ Note , he was prosecuted by Henry Latly and Francis Cobb , the one of which fell Distracted , and the other Killed himself . John Brookbanck committed the 30th of the 11th Moneth , 1673. for not paying Tythes , ( being a Servant to his Mother ) and dyed in Prison the 8th of the 5th Moneth , 1675. and for want of the Goal Fees was buried by the Goaler on the back-side of the Castle . Richard Leng dyed a Prisoner in York Castle , for his Testimony against Tythes , the 25th of the 3d Moneth , 1676. John Green dyed in Prison the 12th of the 5th moneth , 1676. being Imprisoned for non-Conformity , not going to hear divine Service , ( so called ) and not receiving the Sacrament ( so called . ) 1678. William Daughty of Balne prosecuted in the Court of Common Pleas , upon the Statute of the 23 of Queen Elizabeth , for 20 l. per mensem for eleaven Moneths , viz. 220 l. by one A●thony Atkinson , a Prisoner in York Castle for just Debt ( ●n Informer ) for the which sum , the said William Daughty was cast into York Castle , where he dyed a Prisoner for the Truth 's sake . Nicholas Raw sued for small Tythes in the Spiritual Court ( so called ) and committed by Justices Warrant the 8●h moneth , 1674. and dyed the 11th of the 12th moneth 1678. a Prisoner for the Truth 's sake . Thomas Swailes , near Hemsly in Blakamore , Husbandman , committed by an Exchequer process , for not paying small Tythes , in the 6th moneth , 1677. and dyed a Prisoner about the latter end of Harvest , 1678. A TABLE to find the Counties . Berkshire , 85. Bedford , 88. Bristol , 88. Cheshire , 1. Cumberland , 89. Cornwall , 11.91 . Cambridgshire . 90. Darbyshire , 14. Durham , 15.93 . Devonshire , 23.92 . Dorsetshire , 29. Gloucestershire , 31.94 . Huntingtonshire , 98. Hartfordshire , 35.97 . Hampshire , 95. Herefordshire , 98. Kent , 99. Leicestershire , 36.101 . Lincolnshire , 49. Lancashire , 51.101 . London & Middlesex , 102. Monigomerishire , 122. Nottinghamshire , 55. Northamton , 115. Norfolk , 59. Oxfordshire , 119. Pembrookshire , 120. Sussex , 65. Surrey , 112. Suffolk , 66.115 . Sommersetshire , 70.109 . Worcestershire , 74.123 . Warwickshire , 120. Wiltsshire , 123. Westmorland , 75. Yorkshire , 80. THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65840-e3220 Note , These two ar● only seized , the Officers being moderate the goods are not taken away . Notes for div A65840-e36090 Both Dyed Prisoners , committed by William Armorer at Reading . On the Prosecution of the first Act , 14 Car. 2. 
A65856	----	Christ's lamb defended against Satan's rage in a just vindication of the people called Quakers ... from the unjust attempts of John Pennyman and abettors, in his malicious book, styled, The Quakers unmasked, clearly evincing his by a lover of truth and peace, G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1691 Approx. 156 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 35 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65856 Wing W1917 ESTC R20009 12291176 ocm 12291176 58894 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65856) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58894) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:13) Christ's lamb defended against Satan's rage in a just vindication of the people called Quakers ... from the unjust attempts of John Pennyman and abettors, in his malicious book, styled, The Quakers unmasked, clearly evincing his by a lover of truth and peace, G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [14], 54 p. Printed for Thomas Northcott ..., London : 1691. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to George Whitehead. cf. NUC pre-1956. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Pennyman, John, 1628-1706. -- Quakers unmasked. Society of Friends -- England. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2005-01 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Christ's Lambs Defended from Satan's Rage : IN A JUST VINDICATION Of the People called QUAKERS , Their Christian Sincerity , Innocency and Respect to the Civil Government , and the Good Ends thereof , from the Unjust Attempts of John Pennyman and Abettors , in his Malicious Book , styled , The Quakers Unmasked : Clearly evincing HIS Falsheartedness , Temporizing and Envy against an Innocent People , Peaceable Subjects , certain Prophets and Servants of the Living God herein Commemorated . Accommodated to the Capacity of every Impartial and Intelligent Reader , by a Lover of Truth and Peace , G. W. Frowardness is in his heart , he deviseth mischief continually , he soweth discord ; therefore shall his calamity come suddenly , suddenly shall he be broken , without Remedy , Prov. 6. 14 , 15. Behold he travelleth with iniquity , and hath conceived mischief , and brought forth falshood ; he made a pit and digged it , and is fallen into the ditch which he made ; his mischief shall return upon his own head , and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate , Psal. 7. 14 , 15 , 16. LONDON : Printed for Thomas Northcott , in George-Yard in Lombard-Street , 1691. TO THE Impartial and Friendly READER ; A few Advertisements relating to John Pennyman's Book , styled , The Quakers Unmask't ; wherein the Reader is desired to Observe , FIrst , That the said Book was sent in Manuscript to some of Us , in the year , 1677. except some Words and Passages since added , and others omitted in the Printed . 2dly . That this Ensuing Treatise in Answer , was quickly writ in the same year , 1677. and kept private for many years , as 't is said ( in a written Note ) his has been , with an Intent to publish this Answer in Print , if I. P's Envy should prompt him so to publish his . 3dly . Liberty of Conscience being established by Law , this is placed upon his Book in writing , as the reason of its now Publication . Which looks as if he envied our present Liberty by his pernicious Book , tending to bring Persecution again upon us , by rendring us obnoxious to the Civil Government , as much as in him lyes . But we thank God we enjoy the Liberty we have by Law , and that we have cause to hope the Government will not be so credulous of such odious Invectives against Us , as to be influenced thereby to lessen our Christian Liberty . 4thly . Note that this Ensuing Treatise being first writ in the year , 1677. those Passages in it relating to our Sufferings then , as placed in the Present Tence , relate to that time , and not to this now , wherein it is Printed : Wherein we now enjoy our Religious Meetings peaceably and free from Persecution , for which we truly bless God , and thank our Superiors in the Government . 5thly . Please to observe , that I. P. in his said Printed Book explains [ the Quakers ] by viz. [ George Fox and his Party ] and instead of I. P's . words in his Manuscript [ this pretended change of Judgment in the Men that are Quakers , is not to be taken for a change of Judgment in the Quakers . ] He hath it thus in Print , p. 6. viz. [ This pretended change of Judgment in G. Fox and his Preachers , is not to be taken for a change of their Judgment ] which is still to bring an Odium upon Us , and tending unjustly to render Us obnoxious and offensive to the Civil Government , contrary to our Christian Testimony and peaceable Living . 6thly . Instead of his own proper Name [ John Pennyman ] which is set three times over in his Manuscript , he hath , [ by Philo Aletheia ] in his Title Page in Print ; and afterward P. I. five times over in Print ; which 2 Letters of his name are transposed , as he understands , p. 13. which with the Publication of his Book seems to be placed not upon himself , but upon another Person I. G. So that John appears more cunning than innocent in this point : He has his Publisher and Transposer of the two Letters of his Name , either to extenuate the fact , or for some cover or subterfuge for himself ; he has travelled in pain to bring forth such a monstrous false birth , and accepted of another Persons Aid to Midwife it into the World , for mischief and causeless Revenge . It seems when his Book was printed , he had lost some of his Confidence and Zeal for his work , or at least some of his Friends had not so much for him as he seem'd to have when he first writ it , in thus varying his Name in his Title Page and Book . Concerning some Passages added in his printed Book , p. 10. about Jer. Ives his Insinuation from a Book , titled , West answering the North. Where he saith , I am unwilling to write out , because I am not willing to expose you . To this I. P. unjustly cites only a small part of G. W's Reply . — Thus ( in his serious search ) I cannot but observe the Man's Dissimulation , &c. In this implicite kind of accusing us to render us more suspicious and obnoxious , than if he had dealt plainly . And then I. P. takes upon him to deal more plainly , by reciting and observing some Passages out of the said Book , West answering the North. As observing ( as he saith ) with what strange kind of Confidence , deluding and blinding our Proselites , not daring to do so before Authority , but rather down upon his Knees and beg Pardon for his Audaciousness and Insolence , Fallacious doings , &c. this against G. W. To all which we may truly say , that we have cause to thank God we have more just and impartial Men in Authority , and more just Judges than J. P. for he has dealt very unjustly and maliciously by G. W. in this matter , as if he either spoke slightingly or assented to all those sayings cited out of West answering the North. Whereas the contrary is apparently manifest in G. W's . very following words , in his serious search , p. 37. After the words cited viz. hereby to render us more suspicious and obnoxious than if he had dealt plainly . J. P. unjustly leaves out these following words [ which are explanatory to the matter , viz. ] especially whilst he accuseth us over and over with Justifying the late Wars against the King , when as that very Book quoted by him , entituled , The West answering to the North , Printed 1657. doth in the whole Tenour of it severely reprehend those in Power , to wit , Oliver and his Ministers , for their Oppressions , Cruelties and Arbitrary Proceedings , which they pretended to condemn in those before them , though there might be some words too harsh in the said Book as reflecting backward , but with an Intent to judge them then in Power : Yet it is to be considered , as chiefly writ by two Officers or Captains of the old Army , being Common-wealths Men ( as I understand ) who had not as then wholly got over the Warring Spirit , however did simpathise with our Poor , Innocent Friends , when they beheld their deep Sufferings , as in some degree sharing with them , though it 's probable some remainder of their former sharpness of Spirit was left , wherein they had been animated by such zealous Chaplains as Jeremy ; yet those Books quoted by him were extant long before the King's Pardon , which he pretends so greatly to respect . It appears that these Passages tending to clear us , our Adversary designedly left out , the more to recriminate and abuse us . In p. 12. he cites a Passage out of E. B's . Works , p. 442. That all Governours and Rulers ought to be accountable to the People and to the next succeeding Rulers , upon occasion ; and that the chiefest of the Rulers be subject under the Law , and punishable by it if they be Transgressors , &c. No doubt when our Adversary writ this , he thought he had a great advantage against the People called Quakers ; but he argues nothing , nor infers any thing from the words . If his Intention thereby was ( pursuant to his general charge against us ) to render us guilty of double Dealing , false Heartedness and Temporizing , this Passage cited by him against us proves no such thing , but is a plain Indication to the contrary ; or if it was to render us obnoxious , he hath missed his End. It plainly concerns such Rulers and Governments as were Elective , as E. B. his precedent words ( for choosing them by the Consent of the People ) do plainly intimate , ( and it was first writ in the Days of the Commonwealth-Government . ) And for Rulers ( or Representatives ) that are chosen , being accountable to the next succeeding Rulers , if there be Cause , what has he against the matter it self ? What could be J. P's Design in this Citation before , without Observation or Remark upon it ? If he tells us plainly , and make his Objection , I think it will be no difficult matter then to answer him , both on a Religious Account and secundum Hominem , which at present I find no necessity for . Moreover , Reader , we find much of the same Stuff and envious Quarrels raked up against us in divers other Pamphlets as are in John Pennyman's Book , particularly in Fr. Bugg , another Apostate , his Pamphlets , though not so largely as in J. P's , but as malicious , which are elswhere answered . In p. 13. he again charges us with baseness and temporizing , and having out-done and even surpassed the Deeds of the Wicked , that he says he is stopt , for Words are too short to manifest us , ( he saith ) . Whereby it seems he wants Words bad enough for us , in so much that he is stopt ( he saith ) : But how is he stopt ? Does his Envy and Malice rise up to his Throat , and like to choak him ? He has given us Language and Words hard and bad enough to render us as Infamous as he can , as charging us with such Wickedness as can hardly be paralleld , and as great Dissemblers , Deceivers and Deluders , as have appeared in our Age , Lyers , false Prophets ; Hypocrites , &c. But now he wants Words to manifest us . The Railery he has belched out has not manifested us ; can he not study and invent some worse and harder Language against us ? However , he is far louder in his Clamour and Revilings than in his Proofs . In p. 13. he reflects upon a Book , entituled , Truth 's Character of Professors , for laying open the Addresses and Applications , which others had made to O. C. and R. C. with long Animadversions thereupon ; which he falsly saith , was to stir up the Powers against them , charging G. F. and his Friends , as having been most highly guilty themselves of those very things . Wherein he hath also dealt very unfairly and unjustly ; we do not believe there was any such Design in W. C's setting out that Character as either to defame others , or to stir up the Powers against other Professors , but that it was to shew their Priests , &c. their manifold Flatteries and Temporizing in their superlative Characters , Applauses and Addresses , which he cannot parallel from our Friends Applications either then or since . In p. 14. our Adversary again deals very unfairly and unjustly by G. W. about some of our Friends , saying , They give forth Writings from the Immediate Eternal Spirit of God , and by the same Spirit and Power that was in the Prophets , Christ and Apostles ; unto which he falsly addeth , viz. And their so speaking ( G. W. saith ) is of as great Authority as the Scriptures and Chapters are , and greater . His Words , [ and their so speaking ] are J. P. his own Abuse and Perversion ; where did ever G. W. say , That the Quakers , so speaking of their own Books and Writings , is of such Authority ? He denies the Comparison and Charge , as stated ; and I , the person concerned , do solemnly declare , It was never in my Heart , Judgment or Intention to undervalue the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament ; but to esteem them not only as given by Divine Inspiration , and to prefer them before all other Books and Writings extant in the whole World. J. P. injuriously mistates the Case , and leaves out the explanatory part of G. W's Answer in that Case ; and J. P. has been better informed therein , than now he represents it . Therefore Impartial Reader , please to take our Answer in this Case , as it is laid down in our Book , Entituled , the Christianity of the People called Quakers Vindicated , p. 13. We always confess the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration , and prefer them before and above all other Writings or Books , and in no wise question the Truth of them ; yet we must needs allow the Holy Spirit ( from whence they came ) the Preference , and its immediate Teaching and Speaking in the Soul , as of greater Efficacy , Power and Authority to that Soul , than the bare Writing or Scripture without , or only Reading thereof , though it contain the same Words immediately taught . And so Christ and his Apostles living , and powerful Preaching in and from the powerful motion of the Holy Spirit , as being of greater Efficacy , Power and Authority , than the outward Writing or Scripture it self , simply or abstractly considered , as distinct from that Spirit , though the words preached and the words written may be the same : For the Gospel as livingly preached , came not in Words only , but also in Power , and in the Holy Ghost , 1 Thess. 1. 5. For the real Authority , Efficacy and Service , the Holy Scripture has upon a Soul , is from the Holy Spirit or word of Life , giving the true belief and right understanding thereof . Again our Adversary proceeds to give Judgment and Sentence against us , as helping forward our own Destruction , and presumptuously addeth these words ; and seeing there is no hopes of their Repentance or Forbearance ( all other ways or means that have been used proving ineffectual ) It 's now thought meet thus to expose them , &c. p. 14. Thus he has proceeded to give Sentence upon us , and to justifie his manner of exposing of us , and Printing his Invective against the People called Quakers . His Self-contradiction is notorious , where in p. 15. he saith , I abhor that Practice , that is , to render us obnoxious to the Government , when but in the Page before , he concludes that there being no hopes of our Repentance , it 's now thought meet thus to expose us ( as he has done ) though he seems to extenuate his own Fact and Concern therein , by placing the Publishing and Printing of it upon another Person . Now he is for exposing and doing what mischief he can against us , having presumptuously given Sentence of our Destruction , positively concluding , that there is no hopes of our Repentance . The Lord rebuke the Insolency , Pride , Presumption and Envy of this gain-saying Luciferian Spirit . For what end does John Pennyman come so often into our Meetings , to Preach and make a noise among us , smiteing and reflecting upon the Testimonies of the Servants of Christ , exalting himself as Judge over all ? What can his end be therein ? It cannot be to Preach us unto Repentance , which he has already judged there is no hopes of ; neither can We and our Friends receive him as either Prophet or Minister of Christ , though he intrudes himself as into the place of such an one , or at least as if he would have People believe that he had some special Commission : But he appears so very empty dry and dead , that the least Child of Light doth see him , and his forced presumptuous Messages to be both void of Life and Charity , as well as of Faith and Hope ; having no Hope of their Repentance to whom he Preaches . He hath told us , the Righteous are as bold as a Lyon ; but where was his Boldness in the times of our late Sufferings and Persecutions when the Informers were abroad ? He came not then to Preach , Prophesie , or reprove among us ; he would then rather keep obscure , than forfeit his 20 or 40 l. for Preaching in our publick Meetings . To whom I conclude , Oh John ! mayst thou yet be humbled unto Repentance : Mayst thou yet find a place of Repentance for thy great Envy , and all thy hard Speeches against the Lords Servants and People : My Soul yet desires thy Repentance , if a place be yet to be found , that thy Gray Hairs may not go down to the Grave in Sorrow and Contempt ; thy days are hastning towards a Period , recollect thy Self and consider thy ways , and the evil and mischief thou hast attempted and done against the Lord's Heritage and Servants , not only against the Living , but also against the Dead , who are at rest in Christ : The Lord open thine Eyes and hasten thee to seek Repentance , if it may stand with his good Pleasure , otherwise thy Destruction hastens : Remember and think of it . From a Friend to Truth and thy poor Soul , G. W. London , the 14th . 1st . Month , 1690 / 1 The Principal Passages OF A Letter sent to a Friend , And here placed for a PREFACE . Dear Friend J. O. SInce that thou madest Enquiry of me concerning the Book in Manuscript , entituled , The Quakers Unmasked , &c. what we thought to do in it . This is to acquaint thee , That though such kind of Controversies are not desirable nor pleasant to me , any more than to thy self , whom I know to be a Man of a peaceable Spirit ; and unwilling , as well as I , that the Religion of us and all Conscientious Dissenters should be exposed to open Contempt by such Controversies , and raking up Occasions : Yet upon a serious and strict Examination of the said Book , with the principal Quotations , Observations and Argumentative Passages ; I , with some others , have been stirred up and enabled by the Lord , out of a Holy Zeal for his Truth and People , and from a Necessity laid upon us , to draw up and compose an Answer to the said Book . First , To reprehend his Envy and Malice : And Secondly , To vindicate our Innocency towards the Government , and Consistency of our Addresses to the King , with our Principle and Conversations , as a People from the beginning . And for thy Information take the following Account and General Notes of our Proceeding and Sense in this Matter , viz. That we have an Answer in Manuscript , already prepared , to John Pennyman's late Book in Manuscript , not willing to publish it until he first give us occasion , by publishing his ; and that therein we have by sufficient Demonstration proved him guilty of apparent Lyes . I. In the general Charge against the People called Quakers . II. Against Particulars ; as also of most gross Hypocrisie and Contradiction to himself , Malice and base Temporizing , and manifest Falshood in divers Particulars as to Matters of Fact , in clamouring against the People called Quakers , for their Declarations and Addresses to the King , of their peaceable Intentions , &c. All his Allegations and Retortions upon any other whatsoever cannot excuse ( nor hold parallel with ) himself , as to matter of Fact. His Unjustness in making General Reflections from some Particulars . That we reserve our Answer in readiness for publication if his Malice , prompts him to publish his , not desiring or expecting any Mercy from him . That his Book , some of the Persons concerned in it do detain it , being to be communicated according to the Title-page . That his Book , if published , may be prejudicial to thousands of Innocent Unconcerned People in this Nation . And no Advantage to the Author , but to his great and utter Disgrace , Shame and Contempt , in the Eyes of all sorts of Moderate Indifferent People , it tending to beget Jealousies and an evil Eye in the Rulers , and may bring in question all Religion under the Name of Dissenters , &c. if the Lord prevent not . That if John Pennyman will not be reduced to Christianity , but proceed on in his Work , to render us obnoxious to the Government ( which is the tendence of much of his Book ) some of our Friends , out of their Zeal for God and his Truth , Religion and People , are resolved , through God's Assistance and with his Permission , further to detect and unmask him , until he learns so much of Morality and common Civility as to live peaceably among his Neighbours , and lay aside this his Factious and Turbulent Work against peaceable Subjects : This in hast at present ; I am thy assured Friend , G. W. The 29th of the 9th Month , 1677. Christ's Lambs defended FROM SATAN's RAGE . HAving lately had some Opportunity and Occasion to view a Book in Manuscript , entituled , The Quakers Unmasked , signed by John Pennyman , and charging the People called Quakers with Double Dealing , Fals-heartedness , Contradictions , Confusions and Temporizing , such Wickedness as can hardly be Paralleld , as great Dissemblers , Deceivers , Deluders of the People as have appeared in this our Age , Lyers , False Prophets , and to be avoided and witnessed against , Deceitful Workers , Hypocrites ; charging G. F. to be one of the greatest Hypocrites and Deceivers in this Nation , deceiving the People , threatning him with cutting down , &c. Here 's a hideous out-cry , but the Falsness and Malice thereof will appear anon , when we come to his pretended Proofs , which consist of Collections taken out of their own Writings ( as he saith ) ; which he hath so placed , that he saith , those of the meanest Capacity may easily discern and see them to be as great Dissemblers , Deceivers and Deluders as have appeared in our Age : And for all this he pretends the Discharge of his own Conscience . His placing his Collections to make his Charge obvious against the People called Quakers , are in two Columns about Contradictions and Temporizing ; and this , as relating to the several Revolutions and Governments since we were a People , together with some Observations thereupon by another Hand ( as he saith ) ; but we have only Joh. Pennyman's Name to the whole Charge , so that what other Hand soever it was that has helped him to compose this Piece of Malice , he has espoused the whole Matter , not only against particular Persons , some dead and some alive , but also against the People called Quakers in general ; wherein his deadly Malice hath exceeded all common bounds . And yet upon his Paper against G. F. he has placed this Note in the Margent , viz. But is this to render him obnoxious to the Government ? No , I abhor that Practice ; but base and self ended Spirits are to be humbled , saith he . Now I affirm , and it may be obvious to any unbyassed and intelligent Readers , that John Pennyman hath shamefully lied , dissembled and temporized ; lied and dissembled , in pretending that he abhors that Practice of rendring us obnoxious to the Government ; for a very mean capacity may see , that the tenour of his work is to render us obnoxious ; and particularly it is more apparent in certain passages , as 1. from a Paper of one of our Friends , he questions us all in these words , viz. How dare these Men appeal to the King and Council's Consciences that they are harmless , and would do them no harm , &c. p. 9. Now is not this to render us obnoxious as not being harmless , but such as would do them harm ? And yet this is the Man that abhors such a Practice as rendring us obnoxious to the Government . 2dly . Whereas in the Quakers Plea , 't is said on the behalf of the Quakers , that though some that are now called Quakers were once in the Army against the King , when their Knowledge and Judgment were not otherwise fram'd , &c. yet being altered in their Judgments to the contrary , and that it is not lawful in the Administration of the Gospel , to go to war with carnal Weapons , and that there is now no danger of us , and now we are all of that mind , &c. Upon this I pass this Note , viz. that this pretended changed Judgment in the Men that are Quakers , is not to be taken for a change of Judgment in the Quakers . &c. Oh Malicious Insinuation ! Is not this to render us obnoxious to the Government , as to make them believe , for all this , that the Quakers count it lawful in the Administration of the Gospel , for them to go to War with carnal Weapons ? Yea , that themselves may take up Arms and fight against the King , as some have done in the former Wars , before convinc'd and brought under the Gospel Administration ? And what is all this but to render us the very People called Quakers as vile , perfideous and obnoxious to the Government , as he could possibly do ? And not only perfideous to the Government , but to their own Gospel Profession and Principle ; and what 's the Nature and Tendency hereof but to influence and incense the present Government with an evil Eye , and prejudice against us , to ruin and destroy us ; as a People not fit to live in a Common-wealth or under any Government ; but that blessed be the Lord our God , he hath raised a better perswasion and sense of us in the Hearts of many in Power , with respect to our peaceable Conversations , which loudly have all along proclaimed our Innocency and Clearness , from such Faction and Perfideousness against the Government ( under which we live ) as this Apostate Adversary would maliciously insinuate , so manifestly contrary to his own pretences , as abhorring the practice of making us obnoxious to the Government . 3dly . Against the People called Quakers , he observes , that they formerly exhorted Men to fight and would fight themselves ; and now deny all fighting on any pretence , is to be imputed to their temporizing and deceit . See here again how base and contradictory he is to himself ; his objection lyes chiefly against their denying all fighting or to fight themselves ; for this he cries out of temporizing and deceit : Is not this still to render us obnoxious ? Let the Impartial judge , and see how he endeavours to invalid and bring contempt upon all our Declarations and Applications to the King and Council , for our Innocency and peaceable Living under the present Government , according to the practice of the Primitive Christians . To his Accusation , that they ( viz. the Quakers ) formerly exhorted Men to fight , and would fight themselves . I utterly deny it as a Slander , and put the Question to him ; John , wast thou of such a Principle whilst thou own'd the Quakers , as to fight thy self and exhort others thereunto ? If thou wast , it was time for thee to be gone as one not of us . We know none such in our Society ; so it s most wicked and unjust to charge us as a People therewith : Another Instance he has in his Obeservations of this kind , viz. again touching fighting , they have taken care to record what one of their Ministry saith ; we directed all People to the Spirit of the Lord God in them , and if that led them to fight , I had nothing against it , for this he quotes Fol. 4. but tells us not what Book . This I do greatly question , for I never read it that I know of ; however I cannot believe without better evidence , that any Minister of ours did ever preach such Doctrin to Friends or People , as that the Spirit of the Lord might lead them to fight with carnal Weapons , &c. since our Testimony and Judgmment has always been to the contrary ; to wit , that our Weapons are not carnal but spiritual , and mighty through God ; and we wrestle not with Flesh and Blood , but with spiritual wickedness ; and we war not after the Flesh nor with a carnal Sword , but with the Sword of the Spirit , which is , the word of God. And if any one hath writ to any in Power , to this effect , viz. That if they would walk with the Lord and preserve his People , the numberless number of this now distressed People would be to them a Strength , and stand by them in the day of Trouble , and be a Defence unto them according to what is cited . * Howbeit this is not a Proof that the People called Quakers , intended to fight for R. Cromwel or any in Authority , seeing there are other and better ways of defence for a Government , than fighting by carnal Weapons , as Righteousness which exalts a Nation ; the Prayers and Faith of true Christians and Believers , which was the Mind and Practice of the Primitive Christians for those in Authority ; not excluding their civil Contributions , Taxes , Customs and Dues , which has been our Practice to pay , since we were a People ; and that Nations and Governments are not always defended by fighting , carnal Weapons , &c. but by a better way and means , to wit , the fear of the Lord according to his Law ; observe this instance in the time of King Jehosaphat's Reign , when he sought to the Lord God , the Lord establish'd the Kingdom in his hand , and when he caused the Law of the Lord to be taught in Judah , that the fear of the Lord fell upon all the Kingdoms of the Lands ; they made no war against Jehosaphat , see 2 Chron. 17. and 10. and Chap. 20. 29 , 30. therefore the fear of the Lord and his Power , was and is a better Defence to a Kingdom or Nation , than Wars and Fighting . Now having proved from few Instances , what a manifest Hypocrite , and malicious Temporizer John Pennyman is ( as also his obscure Agent , who writ his Observations ) I shall proceed to evince more of his Falshood , Slander , Baseness and Shallowness in his Reflections and Observations , not looking upon it a sufficient Vindication of our selves and our Innocency , only to discover his Malice , Out-rage and Inconsistency ; but I have something to demonstrate on the behalf of our Judgment , Practice and Conversation , as we are a People which any indifferent and unprejudiced Reader may easily perceive or distinguish from his envious Objections and Invectives , and how consistent we are , and have all-a-long been in our Judgment and Practice , having still the Testimony of a Good Conscience to rejoyce in both in the Sight of God and Men , both with respect to the Kingdom and Government of Christ , as head over his Church , and Law-giver to his People , and to the Governments among Men. First then , to his Preface , on which much of his Work had a Dependence , where he thus proceeds , viz. When I have considered how the Quakers have Writ and Printed against the Presbyterians , Independents , and others , for being ingaged in the Late Wars , &c. it hath exceedingly amazed and astonished me , That they who were so great Justifyers and Encouragers not only of what had been done in the Late Wars , but also did Incite , and Encourage those that were therein ingaged , not to leave off until they had set up their Standard at the Gates of Rome , &c. And yet for them to upbraid others with that which themselves for many Years were so deeply concerned and engaged in , &c. who had not been more engaged , if so much , as themselves , in the late Wars — When they themselves had been ingaged in the same Cause and Quarrel with those whom they now so much reproach , &c. Thus far J. P. To all which I do conscientiously answer , that he hath most grosly and palpably belied the People called Quakers in these Passages divers ways : First , in rendring them , without exception of Persons , not only Justifiers of the Late Wars , and of what had been done therein , without exception of Things done ; but also equally concerned with the Presbyterians , Independents and others therein . Secondly , In rendring the People called Quakers , as being as much ( or more ) ingaged in the Late Wars as the Presbyterians , Independents , &c. When in the Time and Heat of those Wars , the People called Quakers were not a People , nor so gathered and constituted as a People , under that Name , Principle or Profession as now , as 't is well known in this Nation ; whereas 't is not unknown , That both Presbyterians , Independents and some others , were both gathered and constituted as distinct Peoples , and as such both Ministers and their People , many of them concerned in the Late Wars , how far both in Preaching , Subscriptions and Actings , is also well known ( yet hope that some of them have learned better things ere this time a Day ) so that in this Case there is a vast disparity between them and the People called Quakers ; therefore the very Ground and Foundation of John Pennyman's Quarrel against us in this Matter ( as being so greatly ingaged in the Late Wars , and Justifiers of what had been done , that is , all that was done ) in those Wars ; This I affirm to be a great Lye against the People called Quakers , and yet grant him , That divers who have been since , and now are of us the People called Quakers , have formerly been concerned in the Late Wars , while under the Notion of Presbyterians , Independents , Anabaptists and other Perswasions ; yea many also who served the King in those Wars , until they became better principled and of another Spirit , through the Appearance of the Day of Christ and his Power unto them , whereby many were made not only to lay down their Commissions and Offices , desert the Army , relinquish Fighting , but also to break their Swords , Spears , and other Weapons of War , and to convert them into necessary Uses , according to that Evangelical Prophesie of Esaiah , ch . 2. as knowing that Christ's Kingdom is not of this World ; and therefore his Servants must not Fight , and at his Command every one must put up and lay aside their Swords as well as Peter , yea Peter must not fight for Christ , but suffer with him , if he intends to reign with him . Here many , who had been concerned in those Battles that were with confused Noise and Garments rowled in Blood , are now come to that which is with Burning and Fuel of Fire , in order to the Consumption of all that Fuel , Lust , Pride , Enmity and Ambition , from whence Wars have risen , and which have been the original Cause thereof , though many were zealous and consciencious , according to what they believed , in those former Wars , even of those several Perswasions before-mentioned ; and my shewing our Adversary's Falsness in his Comparison between the Quakers and Presbyterians in this Case , is not to vilifie or reproach them or any others , because concerned therein , hoping some of them are now better informed , but am necessitated to mention them in this Case , to shew the Disparity and Falsness of this Adversary's Comparison , who now appears as a rigid Persecutor , to take up and maintain a distinct Quarrel against us , for the Presbyterians and Independents against the Quakers , as for not only upbraiding , but reproaching and vilifying them , for being ingaged in the Late Wars , while he falsly saith , We were so great Justifyers and Incouragers of what had been done therein : Hereupon , as the principal Occasion of all his Quarrel after , his charging us with the most revengeful and highest aggravating Terms that was possible for our Pen to express ; He thus proceeds , viz. witness those Words to the Nonconforming Ministers , in answer to Mr. Faldo , viz. But why , poor Nonconformists , after all these preached-up Battles , &c. Again , they are true Gospel-Ministers , whose Gospel is Peace on Earth , and good Will towards Men , and not Garments rowled in the Blood of Kings and Princes , Rulers and People , no worldly Armies , Battles , Victories , Trophies , Spoyls , Sequestrations , Decimations , and the like , &c. And then J. P. as a Person highly disgusted at this and as greatly simpathizing , or rather temporizing with the Presbyterians , Independents and probably some of his private discontented . Counsels or Cabals , to aggravate this particular Instance against the People called Quakers , he addeth these Words , viz. What people , setting these aside , could have had the Face and Confidence to have writ such Language as this ? certainly not any , especially when they themselves had been engaged in the same Cause and Quarrel , &c. First , let it be here noted , That John Pennyman , in his great Zeal for the Nonconformists , and enmity against us , hath still proceeded upon his great Lye against the People called Quakers , ☞ As what People , setting these aside , could have had the Face , when they themselves had beening aged in the same Cause ? See what an apparent Lye this is , and I charge him with it , To prove where the People called Quakers were so ingaged in the same Cause , as to preach up Battles , Spoils , Plunders , &c. Garments rowled in the Blood of Kings , Princes , Rulers , and People worldly Armies and Battles , Victories , Trophies , Spoils , Sequestrations , Decimations , &c. from which he doth not vindicate and acquit John Faldo and his Brethren , but only cries out of Reproach , Revengeful and Aggravating Terms , vilifying , &c. Such an Agent have the Nonconformists as John Pennyman , who instead of vindicating them from these Matters commemorated against them ( on their occasion first given ) he belies the people called Quakers , as being ingaged in the same ; and as if John Faldo and his Brethren were so big and eminent in John Pennyman's Eyes , and such awful and formidable Persons , he put this admiring question , viz. What people , setting these aside , could have had the Face and Confidence to have writ such Language as this ? Oh wonderful ! is John Faldo and his Brethren , the Nonconformists , grown so potent , so awful , so austere or formidable , that it is such a dangerous business to affront them , by reminding them of their former Concerns in the Late Wars , their preached up Battels , &c. even at such a Time when John Faldo , Thomas Hicks the Baptist Forger of Dialogues , and others , both Presbyterians , Independents and Baptists , and their Learned and Reverend one and twenty Divines , as they call them , have endeavoured with all their Force not only to unchristian us , but to render us as odious and obnoxious in the Face of the Nation , not only to Religion , but to Government , as possibly they could , with their Pens , as Cheats , Impostures , yea the vilest of Men , thus putting us in Bear-skins , to make People destroy us in the open Streets , or as if they would swallow us up at once ; witness the mustering up their Forces at Barbican , Thomas Hick's Dialogues , J. Faldo's Quakerism no Christianity , and his Vindication thereof , there rendring us as inconsistent with Human Society , destructive of Government , &c. in our Principles , wherein some Baptists and other persecuting Spirits , plainly shewed its Sting and Venom , but it cannot penetrate our Armour of Light nor hurt us . These Occasions against us , John Pennyman is pleased to take no notice of , and yet counts it a heinous piece of Confidence , to remind such Nonconformists of their former Preachings , of Battles , Sequestrations , &c. contrary to the Gospel of Peace and good Will towards Men , wherein John Pennyman himself dares not adventure to excuse them , though now he strikes in with them against us ; however he may see that there are some among us , that has the Face and Confidence , to oppose both John Faldo , Thomas Hicks , and John Pennyman , in their great Enmity against us ; and I do not see that John Pennyman's espousing their cause and quarrel , and abusing us as he hath done , will stop our Pens , considering the many occasions given against us , not only in their late Invectives , but also in the former cruel Persecutions and Sufferings ( which many of us indured ) both by Presbyterians and Independents , their Ministers , Magistrates and People in Oliver Cromwel's days : Yea , how many caused they in those days to be Imprisoned till Death , Stocked , Whipped ; besides the Stoning , Beating and Abusing by the rude Multitude , when incensed by their Ministers and Leaders , &c. of these things John Pennyman cannot be altogether ignorant ; nor of the Professors in New-England's Cruelty , in putting several of our faithful Friends to death for their righteous Testimony ; whose innocent Blood the Guilty there , have not washed their hands of , nor have they here given a publick Testimony against that cruelty , that we know of . So let John Pennyman consider what credit he will gain , by closing in with such Presbyterians and Independents . I wish both he and they who are alive , may examin themselves and repent , and if he and they be still of the mind that our Pen hath been too sharp , we are sure their cruel Hands , their Goals in Old England , and Gallows in New-England have been far sharper . And now with their malicious Tongues and Pens ( not having Power to persecute as before ) by their Forgeries , they would make the World believe that we are no Christians , &c. but we are better known to Christ and honest Men : As also our so much bearing and suffering John Pennyman and his Party , in their publick outrage and frequent disturbances and interruptions in our Meetings , without exercising or seeking Revenge against them , being so far from encouraging any to beat or lay violent Hands on them , that we have laboured to quiet those People , that have had much ado sometimes to keep their Hands off them , by reason of their turbulent Provocations ; all this sufficiently evidences that our Principle and Spirit is against Fighting , for I am confident , that had I. P. look't on us as Fighters , &c. he durst not have adventured to have given us such frequent and publick occasions of Provocation , as he and his Party have done , which he knows his Friends the Nonconformists would not suffer in their Assemblies , but would have paid him and his Company off to purpose , had he abused them and their Meetings , as he hath done us and ours . And to manifest John Pennyman and his two or three late Followers and Disciples , what hideous disturbances have they frequently made , in some of our publick Meetings in London ? And more particularly his Disciple B. Boyce , who hath shewn a very venerable respect to him , and T. P. little less for him , in proclaiming him openly to be an upright or sincere Man ; and yet this John Pennyman's upright Man , after his various attempts to the Magistrates , to swear the Peace against divers , that never did or intended him harm , his outrage and violence in several Meetings has been notorious . And John Pennyman's own Envy surpasses all this against the People called Quakers , in rendring them obnoxious to the Government ( contrary to his own pretence ) as will yet further appear . Now we come to his pretended Contradiction and Temporizing , unjustly charged upon us the People called Quakers from our Writings , which as he reckons are so placed , that those of the meanest Capacity , may easily see them to be as great Dissemblers , Deceivers and Deluders of the People , &c. and this hideous outcry and clamour he makes , as 1st . wherein he set G. Fox against G. Fox . in his judgment concerning Kingly Government ; and withal let it be remarked , that his Observations and Objections are chiefly made against those Declarations , made to the King and present Powers , signifying our innocent Intentions of living peaceably under their Government , our honouring the King , &c. Against this lyes the charge of Hypocrisie , Temporizing and Apostacy , &c. But why should it become a heinous crime in his view , for Subjects to signifie their Intentions of peaceable Living , and respect to a King or Kingly Government , although some of them have for merly expressed a Fear and Zeal , as he grants , about Kingly Government , which is thus to be understood , of an Earthly oppressing King ; as it was feared some in O. C's . days would have constituted and set up , when they were doting for an earthly King to establish and impose their own Religion upon the Nation contrary to their great pretence to Jesus Christ his Headship and Kingship over the Church ; this was the very thing for which G. F. and others fore-warned and reprehended them † Now where 's the contradiction ? Is it between opposing an earthly Kingship over a Christian Church , and owning Jesus Christ as the only King , Head and Lawgiver to his Church ? Sure no true Christian nor reasonable Man will conclude a contradiction here . And where 's the Temporizing or Apostacy ? Have we ever declined Christ's Kingship over his Church throughout the whole World , and set up an earthly King over the Church , instead of Christ ? We affirm we have not , and this is our present case , still having this distinction between Christ's Kingly Office over his Church in Spiritual Divine Matters , and the Office of National Kings or Rulers in Civil Matters ; it having been always our principle to render to God his dues , and to Caesar his dues distinctly . But to come more particularly to the business objected against us , as contradiction and temporizing , &c. the matter lies here , viz. Between what one formerly said , some time before the King was Restored , viz. do not the Priests and Presbyterians , &c. cry for an earthly King ? Are not all these Elders Christians , that will dote ●o much of an earthly King , Traytors against Christ ? And the Quakers declaring since ▪ the King was restored , viz. that our Intentions and Endeavours are and shall be good , true , honest and peaceable towards the King and present Governours , and that we do love and honour them , &c. Where 's the contradiction here ? Is it between warning Professors of going to set up an earthly King in Christ's stead , and declaring our honest Intentions towards the King , &c. after brought in and set up by a providential Hand of God ? Or does it follow that because some of us have declared , a dislike of having a rigid persecuting King set over us , to intrench upon Christs prerogative , that therefore we must not submit to the over-ruling Hand of God in bringing in a King , whether in Mercy or Judgment , or both ? We shall not dispute that now ; must we be counted Temporizers , for quietly submitting to the over-ruling Power of God in this matter ? See how obnoxious our Adversary renders himself ; for those who formerly feared it would be worse for the Nation to have a Monarchy , as to Impositions , &c. he hath this Salvo , that it was out of Zeal , that some particular Persons did write against Kingly Government , among whom he ranks G. F. &c. The former Writings against Kingly Government as he apprehends them , were out of Zeal and Fear of greater Impositions and Bondage ; but for such to signifie their peaceable Intentions and Respect to the King when restored , this is counted an earthly Temporizing . How now J. P. is this thy Conscience that thou dischargest ? What art thou offended at our innocent plainness ? But how shallow art thou , who when thou hast excused all that thou apprehendst against a Kingly Government , from G. F. or others , as being from a Fear and Zeal , yet now makes it a contradiction and temporizing , for the Quakers to declare their Truth and Fidelity , to the King and present Governours , with their Intentions of Honesty and Peaceableness towards them ? Oh shallow Man ! Is here either contradiction or temporizing ? It had been contradiction , if they had said they intended neither Truth , Fidelity , Honesty or Peaceableness towards the King ; and it had been temporizing , if they had said they now submit all cases of Conscience , Religion and Worship , to an earthly King to be disposed , ordered and determined at his discretion , and not to Christ , the heavenly King and Head of his Church : But blessed be God we are clear of these things , and out of the reach of thy malicious Spirit , who hast thus grosly slandered us with Contradiction , Temporizing , Dissembling , &c. and thou canst not be ignorant , how many of us have suffered for our tender Consciences , under the several Powers since we were a People , and still dayly exposed to Sufferings ; therefore thou art the Temporizer , in going about thus to render us obnoxious to the Government , and thereby to add to our Afflictions and Sufferings ; and note , that whatsoever G. F. or others did formerly write ( to Presbyterians , &c. ) which thou apprehendst to be against Kingly Government , whether it concerns the Persecution , Oppression or Bondage , which they feared might happen thereby , according to the instance given of Herod , Saul , &c. this thou dost not go about to disprove , as being from a fallible Spirit , but hast salved the matter with this , being out of a Fear , Zeal , &c. But thy hideous outcry is against any of our Friends , declaring their honest Intentions of Fidelity , Peace and Respect to the King ; here thou art offended at the words , Loyal Subjects , in a Declaration , which thou sayst , were highly opposed in an Assembly : And I ask thee , wast not thou one of them , who opposed and caused them to be left out ? How now John , what a Labyrinth art thou fallen into , through thy Envy and Malice ? but to come yet more closely to the business , to evince thy malicious silliness ; set case that some of our Friends did really fear , that a King set up by those that were then our Persecutors , as a Creature of their forming , designed to carry on their own Interest , would not be for the universal Interest and Liberty of the Nation , both in matters Religious and Civil ; and thereupon warned them ( which is our present case in debate ) and yet when it pleased the Lord providentially to bring in the King quietly , to acknowledge their Submission and Peaceableness , and to prevent further censure of a temporizing Insinuation in this case — I do declare that what Form of Religion soever a King be of , he must so far distinguish between his Regal Power and his Religion , as to be tender to his Subjects under several persuasions , and grant a free Tolleration and Liberty of Conscience ; or else if he rule either as a Presbyterian , a formal Episcopalian , or severe Papist , &c. and endeavour to enforce his form of Religion upon all , it will not answer the wisdom of God or his Counsel , nor tend to the universal Good or Satisfaction of the People ; so not to his own Prosperity and Quiet , but on the contrary , an universal tenderness and free liberty in Religious matters will. Now John , darst thou yet say that our acknowledgment and submission , as before , is Temporizing , or that they are Dissemblers and Deceivers therein ? If thou darst , let this one instance among many others , confute thy blindness and rebuke thy malice ; as namely the case of Samuel ( that faithful Servant of the Lord ) when Israel cryed to have a King set over them like other Nations , this thing displeased Samuel , or was evil in the Eyes of Samuel ( according to the Hebrew ) and yet for all this , when the Lord had commanded him to hearken to their voice , and shew them the manner of their King , &c. Samuel in Obedience to the word of the Lord , anoynted Saul and kissed him , and said , is it not because the Lord hath anoynted thee ? &c. see 1 Sam. chap. 8. 5 , 6. and chap. 10. 1. Dare John Pennyman say , that Samuel was a temporizing Hypocrite herein , or was Samuel insincere in this matter ? And may he not see how nearly this suits the case of G. F. and others whom he so bitterly enveighs against ? yea , did not Samuel's concern herein exceed the occasion J. P. carps at ? Which shews his implacable Envy and Revenge , still to render us obnoxious to the Government , contrary to his pretence of abhorring such practice . Now I. P. see what an envious Hypocrite thou art , and how manifestly confuted : And yet further from Scripture Testimony , which I must bring over thine head , see Dan. 2. 20 , 21. Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever , for Wisdom and Might are his , and he Changeth the Times and Seasons , he removeth Kings and setteth up Kings . See here how plainly he confesseth it is God that doth these things ; and also said unto Nebuchadnezzar , the God of Heaven hath given to thee a Kingdom , Power and Strength , ver . 37. and yet for all this confessed , that in the days of these Kings , the God of Heaven should set up a Kingdom which should never be destroyed , and the Kingdoms shall not be left to other People , but it shall break in pieces , and consume all these Kingdoms , and it shall stand for ever , ver . 44. ( And did not Nebuchadnezzar confess to God's Power and Kingdom as above his own ? ) How plainly in his Visions did he see and confess to the Kingdom of God and his Christ , as over all these earthly Kings and Kingdoms , Beasts and Horns mentioned , Dan. chap. 7. yea concerning the Ancient of days and the Son of Man ; that there was given him Dominion and Glory , and a Kingdom , that all Kingdoms , Nations and Languages should serve him ; his Dominion is an everlasting Dominion , which shall not pass away ; and his Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed , ver . 14. Did Daniel herein contradict himself or temporize , in confessing , that it is God that changeth Times , removeth and setteth up Kings , and that even Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon , had his Power and Strength given him of God , Dan. 2. 37. and was not Daniel one of them that stood in the King's Palace ? And did not the King make Daniel Ruler over the whole Province of Babylon ? Dan. 6. 21. But Daniel sat in the Gate of the King. Or did he temporize with King Darius , in saying , O King live for ever ? And yet for all this he confessed to the Kingdom of God and of his Christ , as above all these earthly Kings and Kingdoms , and that it should stand for ever . And what more hath G. F. said , viz. That Christ will reign over all these Presbyterians imitated Elders , their earthly Kings , &c. ( knowing also that such Trees as they were , would be more apt to chuse a Bramble for a King , than the Vine , Olive or Fig-Tree . ) And what he means by these earthly Kings , is apparent in these words , Herod the King was mad at the Child Jesus , and sought to slay all the Children in Bethlehem and Judea ; there is the Fruits of earthly Kings ; and such a King , would our false Christians and Elders have ; mark by [ earthly Kings ] Persecuting Kings as the Kings of the Earth set themselves , and the Rulers take Counsel together against the Lord and his anoynted ; yet he that sitteth in the Heavens shall vex them , and his anoynted shall break them , &c. see Psal. 2. throughout . And the Kings of the Earth were such that committed Fornication with the great Whore , who was drunken with the blood of the Saints , and who ( as it s said ) reigneth over the Kings of the Earth ; see Rev. 17 and 18. Chapters . And was it not the Apostate Christians that doted so much for such-earthly Kings to be set over them , to inforce People by outward Coertion to their form of Religion ? Did ever the true Christians call out for such Kings to be set over them ? Did not Christ say the Kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them , but it shall not be so among you ? Now where 's the Temporizing ? We retain ( and are not ashamed of ) our Principles , for Christ and his Kingdom above all the Dominions of the Earth ; yea , and his Soveraignity and Kingship over our Consciences , we cannot give to another ; we trust in and serve the Living God , and the Devil and all his Agents and Apostate Incendiaries shall not deter us out of this . And yet our Adversary judgeth us Apostates , for declaring our Love and Honour to the National King , saying , are not they in their own judgments become Apostates , for now they say they Love , own and Honour an earthly King. So that in this Man's Sense it is an Apostacy , for any one to shew Respect and Honour to the King ( though by the Providence and over-ruling Hand of God restored ) especially so long after they have shewn a dislike to some Mens endeavouring to set up a King in their earthly Wills ; but if he make the worst on 't , he might more safely have said , they are reformed in their judgments who own the King after such dislike , than that they are Apostates : But the Man's malice makes himself obnoxious . And where do we use these very Words ( Earthly King ) on this occasion , but that we love , own and honour the King ( whom here this Man has judged an earthly King ) does this shew us to be Apostates ? what a factious peevish Spirit is this we have to deal withal ? Could not the Primitive Christians shew their Respect and Honour to Kings and Governours , but they must be Apostates from Christ , or his Kingship over the Conscience ? or was their fearing God and honouring the King , a Contradiction or Temporizing ? as if we could not Fear God and Honour the King too ; Oh malicious Man ! where hast thou lost both Honesty and Wit ? did not Shadrach , Meshach and Abednego , yea and Daniel also , who were Children of Judah , serve and attend upon the King of Babylon in his Court ? dare this Man charge them with being temporizers therein , whereas yet they could not obey the King's Command , wherein it was contrary to the Law of their God , but must rather incur the Penalty and Hazard of a fiery Furnace and a Lyons Den than bow to an Image , pray to the King , or worship contrary to the Law of their God ; see Dan. the third Chapter , and Chapter sixth ; for their Adversaries could find no occasion against them , concerning the Kingdom , but sought Matter against them concerning the Law of their God ; and God appeared for them in their Faithfulness to him , to the Conviction of their Persecutors , insomuch that both Nebuchadnezzar and Darius confessed to the Power and Kingdom of the God of Heaven , who is God of Gods and Lord of Kings , saying , I Nebuchadnezzar praise , extol and honour the King of Heaven , all whose works are truth , and his ways judgment , and those who walk in pride he is able to abase : And said King Darius , I make a decree that in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel , for he is the living God , and stedfast for ever , and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed , and his dominion shall be even unto the end , Dan. 6. 26. So that he would have had all his Subjects Quakers , when he saw the Kingdom of God above his own . Again , although we are most unjustly traduced as Temporizers , because of our Applications to the present King and Government , and partly because of some former Letters writ by some Particulars to the Protector and Parliament , warning them , &c. this is no proof of our Adversaries Charge against the People called Quakers , their many and great Sufferings , both in those Days and since , to keep a Conscience clear to God , still acquits them from being such Temporizers , &c. as John Pennyman has infamously rendred them , since we the said People have not looked for Salvation , from the Mountains nor from the Hills , but from the Lord of Hosts ; we have not reposed our confidence in the Arm of Flesh nor in Princes , but in the over-ruling Power and Name of the Lord our God : It is better to trust in the Lord , than to put confidence in Man ; it is better to trust in the Lord than put confidence in Princes , Psal. 118. 8 , 9. Again , put not your trust in Princes , nor in the Son of Man in whom there is no help ; happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help , whose hope is in the Lord his God which made Heaven and Earth , &c. which execute judgment for the oppressed , Psal. 146. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. Moreover we have not been wanting , to warn and admonish those in Power , both Parliaments , Protector and King , against Persecution and Oppression , as the Lord hath laid it upon us ; nor has any of our Addresses to the King , been to stop any Prophet or Servant of the Lord among us , from warning him , &c. So that our clearness from our Adversaries unjust Imputations , is manifest divers ways ; and of these things he cannot be altogether ignorant . And as for his citing of G. F. to the Protector and Parliament , warning him to keep Kingship from off his Head , which some would have given , and his bidding the Powers of the Earth , take beed of making earthly Kings , &c. And what can John Pennyman make of this ? He should have allowed this Construction as he has for others , that if O. C. had been made King as some would have had him , he would have been the greater Hypocrite ; and it was his zeal for the good of those People , that had been against a King , to warn them of setting up or making such an earthly King , in their earthly Wills , as his Words are plain , as in the other passages cited before ; and this Zeal and Fear of the consequence , J. P. does not go about to disprove as erronious there , but would have it run most to our disadvantage , wherein he probably may think his way secure , seeing us a People that have been trod upon as to our Persons and Estates , being exposed to so many Sufferings and Spoyls ( as we were ) he can throw dirt upon us , render us obnoxious to the Government , and so help to afflict us and trample upon us , our Testimony and Christian Reputation ; to bring us under Infamy , Reproach and Disesteem , if possible ; yea , and the severe displeasure of the Powers , ( and yet pretend to abhor such a thing ) this is the nature of his Temporizing , Malice and Revenge ; God will stop him and frustrate him in his Carreer , with his private Abetters and Assistants , I doubt not . What he cites of E. Boroughs Answer to the Apprentices Petition 1659. against bringing in a strange Nation , &c. an oppressing Monarchy , &c. this he might easily have excused with that same Provision for others in the like Case , as namely it was out of his Zeal and Fear , that it would have been worse with the Nation , &c. But , says he , all these Lines are left out ( and so he saith of F. H. in one Paper ) And upon some other Passages in E. B's . Works , of divers Words , being left out , expunged , &c. This Man might very well have let E. B. alone , since he is gone to his rest ; if he had been charitable , or but as good as a Moral Heathen , among whom it was a Maxim , de Mortuis nil nisi bene , but especially since J. P. had Time to have told E. B. of this in his Life-time ( he being not here now to answer for himself ) and doubtless he was so tender a Man as he would have heard him , if he would have given him any friendly Caution ; but thus to clamour and abuse Honest Men , that are at rest , is very ignoble , especially since J. P. owned them in their Life-time , and some Time after , and F. H. : Nor do we think our selves bound directly to prostrate our Judgments concerning all particulars , before such a malicious Adversary as J. P. or so far to own his Prosecution of Men so long after they are dead , when they cannot be here to answer for themselves ; however dare our Adversary say otherwise of E. B. and F. H. than that they were sincere-hearted Men to what was then manifest ? and zealous Servants and true Prophets of God , and vindicators of Truth in the several Currents and Streams of their Writings , as may be seen in their Prophesies and Conditional Threats against the late Powers , &c. And did not thou J. P. say , That E. B. was faithful in his Day ? and I doubt not but their Names are recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life , though abused by this Man ; wherein all may see his Malice is so deadly , that it extends to the very Grave , as if he would hang us all up , even the Dead as well as the Living . As for what he cites of G. F. to Oliver , dated the eleventh Month 1657. as to the Success he might have had , if he had been Faithful , and thundered down Deceit , and asking why they put such as feared God out of the Army ? Sober Men and True Hearts , such as the Lord owned , &c. How plain is it that he judged O. C. as one unfaithful to his former Promises , specious Pretences for the Liberties and Properties of the Subjects , for Liberty to tender Consciences , taking off Oppression , and particularly that of Tythes , which he promised to remove , when he was low in his Mind , in the Time of the Wars , praying to God , weeping , saying , Our Eyes are towards thee O Lord , &c. Surely if J. P. cannot say , That he had no Success in those Days , much less can he determine what Success he might have had against the Pope , as he pretended , if he had performed his Promises ; and he was reproveable for puting out honest Men for their Consciences , the more , because that was a Breach of his Promise of Liberty to tender Consciences ; but there were many , when they saw the Self-endedness of O. C. and his Apostacy from the Cause which so many ventured and lost their Lives for , they deserted the Army , without being put out of it ; and I am perswaded , That reproving him for putting such out of the Army for their Consciences , was more upon his Breach of Promise , than with an Intent to have them always continue in it , in order to War , and fight , especially under so much as the Notion of Quakers , who conscientiously deny fighting and Blood-shed : But here seems to be the main Objection , They were sober Men , and such as feared God , therefore they must need be Quakers , and to continue them in Arms , to fight , kill and shed Blood , must needs be contrary to what the Quakers have since declared to the King. That they must needs be absolute Quakers ; because faithful to what they then knew , does not follow ; for Paul was sincere , from his Youth upward , to what he professed before his Conversion , and divers had some Convincement and Fear of God upon them , in the Army , before they were either converted so far as to be Quakers , or did clearly see , That Wars and Fighting did not consist with the Gospel Dispensation and New Covenant ; but many , when they did see it , came out from them , and did leave them voluntarily ; therefore it is a false Observation and Inference that G. F. his Judgment was , That Quakers might Fight , but rather that it was a Breach of Promise , and reproveable in O. C. to turn truer Men than himself out of the Army , before so far convinced as to lay down their Weapons : And if he should argue , That Christ was contradictory to himself , in suffering Peter , one of his Disciples , to wear a Sword ( before fully converted ) because he saith , my Kingdom is not of this World , this would not be taken for any good Argument , especially among Christians ; so that this Man's deridingly calling the Quakers these peaceable Men , and maliciously inveighing against them as Temporizers , because of their Declarations to the King , neither proves them such , nor can he thereby invalid those Declarations , and particularly that to the King , in the Year 1660. viz. All Bloody Principles and Practices we , as to our own Particular do utterly deny , with all outward Wars and Strife , and Fighting with outward Weapons , for any End or Pretence whatsoever ; so those that use any Weapon to fight for Christ , or for the establishing his Kingdom or Government , both the Spirit , Principle and Practice that we deny , &c. And this Testimony we still maintain and stand for ; and where 's the Contradiction and Temporizing ? Have we ever declared , That we have owned Bloody Principles or Practices ? or that we would fight with Carnal Weapons for Christ , or for the establishing of his Kingdom and Government ? while he cannot prove this , where 's the Contradiction ? and then where is the Temporizing ? is it in denying Bloody Principles , and declaring our peaceable Intentions , to live quietly in Godliness and honesty under the King and Government ? or in giving Testimony against those that would fight for Christ , or the establishing his Kingdom by Carnal Weapons of War , and would build up Sion , with Blood ? Have we not all along been against such a Practice ? And have not our peaceable Conversations declared the same ? Were not the Primitive Christians exhorted to be subject to the Higher Powers , seeing they were ordained of God ? And dare he say this was a Temporizing in the Primitive Christians ? No , does not the Apostle plainly say , Ye must needs be subject , not only for Wrath but for Conscience-sake , Rom. 13. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. This Subjection for Conscience-sake surely was not temporizing , and the Subjection we owe to the Civil Powers , whether Active or Passive , so as we may keep our Consciences clear to God , in doing or suffering , and as the Apostle further exhorted , put them in mind to be subject to Principalities and Powers , to obey Magistrates , and to be ready to every good Work , Tit. 3. 1. And this was without exception against the Name ( King ) or other , and submit your selves to every Ordinance of Man , for the Lord's sake , whether it be to the King as supreme , or unto the Governours , &c. sent for the Punishment of Evil-doers , and the Praise of them that do well , 1 Pet. 2. 14. So that the Primitive Christians did not boggle at the Name King ; and for this Cause pay ye Tribute also , rendring to all their Dues , &c. Ow no Man any thing but Love , &c. Rom. 13. 6 , 7 , 8. And the true Christians , though they suffered for Christ , and underwent many Injuries from Men , yet they were to live peaceably with all Men ; they were not so much as to avenge themselves , but rather to give Place unto Wrath , for vengeance is mine , and I will repay , saith the Lord , Rom. 12. 18 , 19. Herein they granted a Vengeance was due , but were not to avenge themselves . To our Adversaries saying , That the Soldiers were charged to go forth with a free willing Heart , &c. Here is a Perversion in this ; for their Charge was , they should keep in the Fear of the Lord , that they might not lose the Dread of the Lord : And dare this Man say , That none of them had the Dread of the Lord , at any Time upon them ? And that Advice given to O. C. Do not stand cumbering thy self about dirty Priests , &c. This he cites , but to what Purpose it shews ; for his cumbering himself with such Covetous Priests , he was reproveable , and the setting up and promoting such Priests , hath not consisted with the Good of our Nation , under any Government . Again , I find in his Notes against Francis Howghill , where it is said , That it is no Rebellion to call away those in Power ( he hath this Aggravation added ) viz. by which he means to Depose those in Power , that perform not their Trust for the Good of the People , p. 4. See here how obnoxious to the Government he hath gone about to render the Quakers , by this perverse addition of a meaning , he hath put upon F. H. as if to call away and to Depose were both one in common Acceptance , and yet this is the Man that pretends to abhor that Practice of rendring us obnoxious to the Government : Pray , how can we trust him , &c. he should have been so charitable as not to have aggravated the matter with such a Meaning added ; especially since it concerned a Man who is deceased , and dyed a Prisoner for the Testimony of Jesus , and at rest , and who in his Life-time bore a faithful Testimony for Truth and Righteousness . 'T is a most base and revengeful Spirit in J. P. to rake E. B. out of his Grave , to bring Infamy upon his name , his Gospel Testimony which he bore , and Prophetical Spirit which was in him now he is not here to answer for himself ; and not rather have prevented both by Friendly Advice in his life time , when they were in Society ; but instead thereof it may be rather questioned , whether he was not in those Cases , too much beset with such unstable Spirits as J. P. who now might have put more charitable Constructions upon E. B. and us , than he has done , namely , that he feared the effects of a Monarchy , and that he was so zealous against the great persecuting Whore , that has made her self drunk with the Blood of the Saints , that therefore he would have had the Beast that has long carried her , so to hate her as to cast her off ; as being a Man who in his Spirit simpathized with the Martyrs of Jesus , and those Souls under the Altar of them that were slain for the word of God , who cryed with a loud voice , how long O Lord Holy and True , dost thou not Judge and AVENGE our Blood on them that dwell on the Earth , Rev. 6. 10. And whatsoever in any of the Writings cited by J. P. may seem disgustful as to Monarchy , we have still this cure for it all , that John Pennyman has prescribed , namely , that these things were writ out of these Mens Zeal and Fear , that Monarchy would be oppressive , and cause more Burthens or Impositions to be laid upon the Nation than before . And this excuse was pretty warily contrived ; for if he had flung all that former Zeal and Fear into the dirt , 't is not unlikely but he might have highly disgusted his Friends the Presbyterians and Independents , &c. And therefore as a Person that appears rather affected with these former Passages , which intimate a Fear concerning Monarchy , than with our late Applications to the King , &c. he has taken the great pains to collect and transcribe them the more at large , and sorely to chide us ( the People called Quakers ) for making Declarations and Applications to the King , Council and Parliament , to perswade them of our faithful and peaceable Intentions , or for any Relief from the Imposition of Oaths , &c. for this we are sorely chidden not only as Temporizers , but also for a late fawning flattering Address to the King and Parliament , as he is pleased to call it . We meet with no such chiding for these particular Passages , that seemed to dislike of a Monarchy in Cromwel's days ; for the Fear and Zeal that was therein shall either cure all that , or else John shall relinquish the Medicine of his own preparing and wheel about again , and wholly desert his Friends the Nonconformists , both Presbyters , Independents , and others of his private Abetters and Cabalistick Council . As concerning that passage to the Officers of the Army ; where after they are reproved for abusing the Power of God and loosing it , and putting them in Prison that struck at the Root ( meaning the Quakers ) ( saith he ) there is this passage , viz. Had you been faithful to the Power of the Lord God , you had gone into Spain , to require the Blood of the Innocent that there had been shed , and have commanded them to have offered up their Inquisitions , &c. and knocked at Romes Gates before now , and trampled Deceit and Tyranny under : And demanded the Pope , and commanded him to have offered up all his Torture-houses , his Racks and Inquisition , &c. Hereupon we have several questions put upon us , viz. Could any People have declared themselves more for fighting ? How should the Army set up their Standard upon the top of Rome , but by fighting ? How require the Blood that has been shed in the Inquisition , but by fighting ? Here he may think he has sorely opposed and puzzelled us . But 't is no very difficult matter to answer with clearness herein , and safety to our Christian principle , against killing and destroying one another ; for either these Passages must be spoken as from a Prophet of God , or only as a Christian , however conditionally . First , if as a Prophet , then he speaks not always what is desirable or pleasant to him , according to his Christian Principle , nor within the compass of his Understanding as a Man , nor from any Human contrivance , but what 's commanded him of God , as relating to Judgments or Calamities which may be of divers kinds , and then he may Speak and Prophesie of Wars and Destructions , &c. and yet not at all be of such a Spirit or Principle in himself , as to maintain or desire Wars and Fighting ; as the Prophet Isaiah , who was an Evangelical Prophet , and against Wars and Fighting and saw the end thereof , Isa. 2. 3 , 4 , 5. and the Indignation of the Lord upon all Nations , and his Fury upon all their Armies , Isa. 34. 2. yet this Evangelical Prophet said , O Assyrian , the Rod of mine Anger , &c. I will send against an Hypocritical Nation , &c. see Isa. 10. 5 , 6. And further , all yee Beasts of the Field come to devour , Isa. 56. 9. And Christ Jesus , himself who said , my Kingdom is not of this World , for if it were , my Servants would fight ; yet prophesied of the sad and miserable destruction of Jerusalem , and of those Murderers that slew the Heir ; and said to those Hypocrites , fill ye up the measure of your Fathers Iniquities ; and this was , that all the Righteous Blood shed , might be required at their hands . And several Instances of Gods Judgments might be brought out of the Revelation of John against the great Whore , &c. So that a Man may speak as a Prophet ( and be yet a Christian ) of divers Calamities and Judgments which he cannot be active in , and yet not destroy his Christian Principle . Secondly , But if as a Christian only , and within the compass of a Christian Freedom , and understanding these aforesaid Passages are spoken ; then I may lawfully conclude , that the design thereof was not to incite to Fighting Killing or Bloodshed , but rather that it was writ from a Belief that if they had eyed the Lord , and aimed at the removing Oppression and Persecution , they might have been such a dread of Nations , as is expressed in the same Paper , that possibly they might not have met with such Resistance ( if any ) in that case ; for who knows not that they were formidable for a time ? And what success they might have had for such an end , our Adversary cannot determine . ( However to require their Inquisition and to knock at Romes doors , proves no violence ; all this might have been done by Embassies , as in the case of the D. of Savoy , that persecuted the poor Piedmontors the Stock of the Waldenses . ) For he proves not an incitation unto Bloodshed and Slaughter in the said Papers , but only that they should have required the Innocent Blood that had been shed , after they had set up their Standard at Rome , according to what many of them had often promised , before they fell on persecuting and imprisoning our Friends ; and herein they were reproved of breach of promise , that many of the old Army had made , not to lay down their Arms till they had set up their Standard at Rome , and broke down Oppression there . But on the contrary to fall upon Oppressing and Imprisoning Men for Conscience here , might they not justly from their own former pretences and promises be asked , why do ye Imprison us , or suffer us to be Imprisoned ? ( As many were in the Protectors name and time ) why do ye not go to Rome and break down the Popes Inquisitions , and in point of Justice require the Innocent Blood that has been shed by that persecuting Power ? And might they not have required this as Magistrates , and seen what satisfaction would have been made , according to their own engagements ? But when they set up Persecution in England , they lost their Power and Dread , and became Weak and Feeble , till the Lord overturned them . And yet though it ' cannot consist with our Christian Principle so much , as to avenge our selves , War with carnal Weapons , or incite others to War and Bloodshed : And G. F. ( who is the Man chiefly struck at in this matter ) even in Cromwel's days did manifestly testifie against Wars and Fighting , as also against Plotting and contriving Insurrections , and this both by Words , Writing and Suffering ; and exhorted the Soldiers to do violence to no Man , neither accuse any Man falsely , and this in the same Paper wherein he reminds them of Rome , &c. Howbeit there remains both Judgments and Vials of Wrath from God , in store for the Persecuting Whore , or Mystery Babylon , wherever she sits upon the many Waters , which are Peoples , and Multitudes , and Nations , and Tongues , Rev. 17. and 18. Chapters . that has been drunk with the Blood of the Saints , and made both Nations and Kings drunk with the Wine of the Wrath of her Fornication : And whether at Rome , or throughout all Christendom , that Spirit of Persecution cannot escape , nor they that joyn with it in acts of Cruelty , whether Papists or Protestants , Kings , Princes or People . But as for O. C. ( and his Agents ) though looked upon to be a Beast , yet he was not so serviceable a Beast or Horn , as those spoken of in the Revelations , chap. 17. 16. that shall hate the Whore , and make her desolate and naked ; and shall eat her Flesh and burn her with Fire , because God hath put it into their Hearts to fulfil his Will , ver . 17. ( too course a work for Saints and Lambs of Christ , and yet Gods Will it should be done . ) Now to foresee or foretel such a Judgment to be of God is one thing , and to incite Men to Wars and Bloodshed is another : And this latter I affirm , stands not with the Principle nor Practice of the People called Quakers , nor do they declare themselves for Fighting , as they are most falsly accused . And as to the question , How should the Army set up their Standard at Rome , but by Fighting ? There does lye a plain exception , and certain Instances against the general State of this questionary Argument ( which yet I bring not as comparative altogether , but only with respect to that Dread , that was believed by some would have attended the old Army , had they been faithful to the cause pretended , and gone to Rome for that end declared . ) My exception is first in the case of Gideon , the Host of the Midianites fled and were overcome , and yet not by Fighting on Gideons part , but by a mean Stratagem , as to outward appearance , viz. that of their Pitchers , Trumpets and Lamps ; but the hand of the Lord was in it , see Judg. 7. And secondly , in the case of Jehosaphat King of Judah , when the Children of Ammon , Moab and Mount-seir came against Judah , the Lord told them by his Prophet Jehaziel , be not afraid nor dismaid by reason of this great Multitude , for the Battel is not yours , but Gods , 2 Chron. 20. 15. And did they then go against this great Army to fight them ? No , but having first sought the Lord , they sung Praises to the beauty of Holyness ; and when they began to sing , the Lord set ambushments against the Children of Ammon , Moab , &c. see ver . 22 , 23. And it s said concerning Barak , Jeptha , Sampson , David , Samuel and the Prophets , that by Faith they subdued Kingdoms , turned to flight the Armies of the Aliens , &c. Heb. 11. 32. which therefore was not all by Fighting ; but that there has a hand and power of God appeared in these things , and in Revolutions , most sorts will confess except Atheists . Object . The Army was made the Sword of the Lord against Papists and Bishops , M. H. T. S. and the Lord is represented Fighting with Olivers Sword , G. R. And what then ? So the wicked are call'd his Sword , Psal. 17. 13. And O Assyrian the Rod of mine Anger , Isa. 10. 5. And Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon my Servant , Jer. 25. 9. and 43. 10. See the places quoted . And also Jer. 49. 28. and 50. 17. and Ezek. 26. 7. and 29. 19. and 30. 10. So that sometimes God makes use of evil Men to execute such Judgments , as well as Men zealous and sincere for a good end therein . And also that Passage cited about inviting all Christians and Nations that are against Popery , to come against it , &c. This is taken as looking somewhat Warlike ; however had they so done , in all probability they had been so formidable and frightful to the Pope , &c. that he would have delivered up his Mitre , &c. that there would have been the less occasion ( if any ) for War and Bloodshed . But says our Adversary , they gave Directions and Charges to the Protector and Officers and Soldiers concerning Fighting , exhorting thereunto , &c. p. 13. I find no such Charge and Exhortation , and I cannot believe it without more plain and direct evidence . As also that charge in his Book , so often cast upon us , viz. That they ( viz. the Quakers ) approve of what the Armies did against the King and his Party ; which I affirm is utterly false , as stated , and especially as charged in general : For we rather have lamented that War and Bloodshed , as a National Calamity and Judgment for the Sins of the People . And though we confess , and our Adversaries cannot deny , that the Sword was one of Gods four Judgments upon Idolaters and Oppressors , Ezek. 14. 21. and Jer. 34. 17. and so justifiable as from God , whose Judgments are all just ; yet it is possible Men may be Unrighteous and selfish therein , in killing and taking Possession , and so not justified in their immediate acting therein . That G. F. and many others concerned with him in the Testimony of Jesus Christ , have not varyed from their Christian Testimony against Fighting , nor Temporized , Apostatized or been deceitful therein , further appears , I. First from his being cast into the Dungeon in Darby Goal , in the year 50. where he lay six Months space , because he would not take up Arms for the Commonwealth against the King. II. From his and others refusing considerable Places in the Army , when invited by the Committee of Safety . III. From his Answer then , that he abhorred it ( viz. ) to accept of such Place or Preferment in the Army , as that of a Colonel proffered him , and that he was in the Covenant of Peace , that takes away the occasion of Wars ; for he knew from whence all Wars did rise , even from Mens Lusts. Yet notwithstanding in the year , 1654. he was brought up from Leicester to London , being accused for a Plotter to bring in King Charles . And in the year 1655. after Major Ceeley had cast him into Prison in Doomes-dale at Lanceston ( before Judge Glin at the Assizes there ) he brought a Man of Belial to swear , that he could raise 4000 Men to involve the Nation in Blood , and bring in King Charles . Now considering his deep Suffering then , as also that he was then suspected to be as much for King Charles , as J. P. can suspect or insinuate that he was against him , and yet now to own and honour him , which is the great crime in this Adversaries evil Eye . But that he was then guilty of Plotting for the King , and now ( in his owning the King in the civil Government ) a Temporizer , are both alike unrighteous Calumnies and Forgeries of his , and our guilty and Persecuting Adversaries . But that he and others refused Preferments in the old Army , and to take up Arms in the Commonwealth's days against the King and his ; and our Testimony both then and now being to the Covenant of Peace , and against even the very occasion of Wars , to wit , Men's Lusts ; these are true , and still do plainly evince our constant Consistency with our selves and Christian Testimony , from the beginning , against all Plotting , carnal Wars and Fighting . Moreover be it remarked , that after G. F. came to London , and was brought before Oliver Cromwel , he said , That there was a People now gotten up or risen , that he could not win with Gifts , Honours , Offices , or places of Preferment , as he could all other Sects . To which G. F. answered , viz. That we have forsaken our own and are not like to receive any thing of him , nor the Glory of the World ; and so he was not like to choke us with such things , as he had done all others , &c. Observe here his and our faithful Friends faithfulness to our Christian and Gospel Testimony , and clearness from Temporizing or aiming at worldly Interests , which is the character and design of Temporizers . Again , as to his hideous clamour against the Quakers , as far more guilty and more abominable in these matters , than any other Party what soever , whilst they so contumeliously upbraid others , and have done the same things themselves . This is a plain lie against the Quakers , considering that but a few lines before , p. 20. he tells the Readers , the Quakers reproach and rail on the Presbyterians and Independents , for their joyning to and abetting the late War , and approving the Execution done upon the late King and his Party . Now that the Quakers have so done and joyned , is an apparent Falshood before detected ; and that the Quakers have so done , to wit , approved the execution done upon the late King , &c. is a most aggravating Falshood , to expose us to the severity of the Government , who were not then in being . Now Reader , judge what 's the tending of all this our Adversaries inveterate work against us , but to expose and render us obnoxious to the present King and Government , as possibly he can to ruin and destroy us , so directly contrary to his pretence , of abhorring that Practice ; do but see the Man's gross Hypocrisie , deadly Malice , and most base Temporizing , to bring us under into our Graves with contempt , if possible . Howbeit , as we fear not him , nor his Invectives , nor the Devil that old Murderer , that has set him on work : So we doubt not but through divine assistance , we shall still close to our Christian Testimony ; faithfully witnessing that Christ's Dispensation , Kingdom and Government among his People , is above Wars and Fighting , for it is established in Righteousness and Peace ; and of the increase of his Government and Peace there shall be no end ; but God will make Wars to cease to the ends of the Earth , and in Salem shall be his Tabernacle , where he breaketh the Bow and the Spear , and Weapons of War , &c. And we the People called Quakers , can in defiance of all Envy and Malice , stand up for Christ Jesus and his Kingdom , and still plead the same things that J. P. quotes out of our Friends Declarations to the King of England , &c. and that with a good Conscience in the sight of God and Men , both what he cites out of Quakers Plea , 1661. viz. No better Testimony can be given of us and of our peaceableness ; and that we shall not Plot nor Rebel against the King , than experience it self ; experience is the best witness that we are peaceable , and free from Plotting and Rebellion ; for we have always been so since we were a People , both before and since the King came in . As also a Declaration quoted by him , given forth in behalf of the whole Body of the elect People of God , who are called Quakers , and signed by , G. Fox and Richard Huberthorn , John Stubbs , Francis Howgill , Ger. Roberts , John Boulton , Leonard Fell , Samuel Fisher , Hen. Fell , John Hind , John Furley , Junior , Tho. Moore , these Names he has mentioned , to expose them to the World as Temporizers , Appostates , &c. though Men far more Righteous than himself ; and I am perswaded , most of them , if not all , more Conscientious in what they say , than ever John Pennyman was , since he entertained prejudice and envy : Hear what he has against these Men , as Temporizers ( viz. ) That they have suffered , because they would not take up carnal Weapons to Fight withal against any ; and made a prey upon , because they say , we are the Innocent Lambs of Christ ; and cannot avenge our selves [ as he cites ] and further in the Postcript , All Wars and Fightings with carnal Weapons , we do deny , who have the Sword of the Spirit . Again , this the People called Quakers do witness ( viz. ) and this is both our Principle and Practice , and hath been from the beginning ; so that if we suffer as suspected to take up Arms or make War against any , it is without any ground from us ; for it neither is , or ever was in our Hearts , since we owned the Truth of God , neither shall we ever do it , because it is contrary to the Spirit of Christ , his Doctrin , and the Practice of his Apostles , &c. Well , this Testimony we stand by , against all the contrary whatever ; and do affirm it was conscientiously writ , and not from a Temporizing Spirit , as our Adversary all along endeavours to insinuate , to prejudice and cloud our Christian Testimony . Again he cites these words to the King and Parliament , 1661. ( viz. ) our Allegiance to the King , our Lives have and shall manifest to him ; and you , and all Men subscribed he saith , by George Fox , Edward Burroughs , Francis Howgill , John Crook , Samuel Fisher , Richard Huberthorn , John Whitehead , Samuel Thornton , Leonard Fell , John Boulton , and twenty more ; and these he has ranked up for Temporizers , Dissemblers , &c. having rendred all our Applications to the King of this kind , but Hypocrisie and Temporizing Deceits as not to be trusted , and this still to render us obnoxious ; more especially if his Book be Printed ; for see what he saith ( not only to cloud , but to murder our Christian Testimony ) ( viz. ) and yet under all these Dissimulations and Temporizings , do like the Whore in the Proverbs , wipe their Mouths , and proclaim themselves an innocent and harmless People ; and near his Conclusion , charges G. F. and his Adherents , with a late fawning flattering Address to the King and Parliament . How now John , is this thy abhorring to render us obnoxious to the Government ? God will smite thee , thou malicious Hypocrite ; our Innocency shall out-live thy Envy and causeless Revenge , and rise up in Judgment against thee . What wilt thou be still be mad against us , because our Friends gave Testimony against the Man that attempted to burn the Bible , among other Books at the Exchange ? And wilt thou be still revengful , because some were moved to testifie against thy extravagancy and riotous work , with thy twenty seven Venison Pasties ( or so esteemed ) exposed to the Multitude ? And was not this thy wedding Dinner for Jews and Gentiles , whom thou hadst invited to Merchant-Taylors-Hall ? And what was thy intended Mystery in all this ? Answer plainly , for it was a very publick Frolick , and whether or no had not the Bible been burned , if the Officer at the Exchange had not prevented ? be plain , and do not always smite at others and hide thy self ; nor put us off , with telling us , Thou wouldest not do it at the Will of any Mortal : What immortal one would move any to attempt it ? An immortal God , or an immortal Devil ? Couldst thou imagin that the immortal God would ever move to it ? And what moved thee now thus to vent thy Malice and Clamour , not only against the People called Quakers in general , but also against many particular Persons by Name , the meanest of them more Righteous than thy self ? Dost thou not know that Edw. Burrough , Fr. Howgill , Sam. Fisher , R. Hubberthorn , Joh. Stubbs , Edw. Piott , George Bishop , George Rose and Miles Hallhead are all deceased ? Yea , some of them many Years in their Graves , who dyed Prisoners , sufferers for their Consciences towards God , and yet thou wilt rank them among Temporizers : Oh unrighteous Man ! is thy Conscience wholly seared , since thy Essay towards the burning of the Bible ? for thou hast as little Recourse or Regard to the Scriptures , or Truth 's Principle in thy Writing ( though once professed by thee ) as thou hast to Conscience ; which is none at all in sincerity : Malice and the Gall of Bitterness has swallowed thee up , and Darkness is become thy Habitation . Dost thou not remember that Fr. Howgill , dyed in Prison , and that both E. B. R. H. and others were Prisoners when taken sick , and dyed ? And dost thou not know that not only Sam. Fisher but John Crook , John Boulton , and many others , have been great Sufferers since the King's Restauration ; and must all these be now infamously ranked among Temporizers , Dissemblers , &c. Is this thy Conscience and Charity John Pennyman ? And is thy Malice so great against William Deusbury , so that thou must needs endeavour to expose him to the Displeasure of the present Government , to add Afflictions to his Bonds , who is known to be a sincere , upright , peaceable Man , and great Sufferer , both in the Time of the late and present Powers , yea and in present Suffering and Confinement for his Conscience and Testimony . And what Hurt has honest Tho. Salthouse done thee , that thou must needs go about to expose him too ? And also Isaac Pennington , who is known to be an Innocent Harmless Man , and hath been a great Sufferer , even under the present Power ? What , would not thy Malice suffer thee to let him alone , but thou must needs render him obnoxious for writing something to the Parliament and Army ? printed 1659. about their backsliding and turning aside from the Good Old Cause , &c. And to aggravate the Business against him , thou puttest the Question , Was not then the Armies Cause just in his Opinion , and their Fighting Lawful , &c. p. 17. How now , John Pennyman , hast thou neither a regard to Men nor Truth ? Hast thou done as thou wouldest be done by , thus to expose Men , and question them for that which thou thy self darest not adventure openly to oppose ? Therefore I would ask thee , What is thy Opinion concerning that Cause called the Good Old Cause , to wit , Liberty to tender Consciences , removing Oppression , and preserving Men's Properties , formerly pretended to in the Old Army , though not well mannaged and pursued , was this Cause pretended to , just ; yea or nay , in it self ? Why dost thou cover thy Deceit , desert Truth in any Case , and peevishly expose Conscientious Men , for formerly confessing it ? One Passage to the Parliament and Common-wealth 1657. Let the Reader a little take notice of it ; for perhaps he may smile at John Pennyman's Design in citing it . The Passage , as he cites it , runs thus , p. 28. viz. Let all these Abbey-Lands , Gleab-Lands that is given to the Priests , be given to the Poor of the Nation , and let all the Great Houses , Abbies , Steeple-houses and Whitehall be for Alms-Houses , ( or some other use ) for all the Blind and Lame to be there . What could be J. P's Design in citing this Passage ? If it was to make the King and Court angry with our Friends , for advising to make White-Hall an Alms-house for the Blind and Lame ( as that seems most likely to be his Design ) I dare say he will miss of it ; for I am perswaded the King would have been better pleased , and thought it more Charitable , that his House should have been an Alms-house for the Poor , Blind and Lame , than that Oliver and his Crew should there set up their Nests , pamper , feed and gluttonize themselves ; for the Humility , serious Praying and Tears were lost when they had killed and taken possession , were got to White-hall , and there settled at Ease in fulness , pride and idleness , even while many innocent Men were deep Sufferers for their tender Consciences in cold noisom Goals , Holes and Dungeons , with Bread and Water , their Victuals being snatched from them , their Bed-cloaths taken from them by Force , and they forced to lye upon Straw in cold low dark Goals , for above a Year together . In these and such like Sufferings I my self , with many others of our Friends had a deep share in Oliver's Days , and that under Presbyterians and Independents , I affirm ; and yet they have not manifested Repentance , nor made Satisfaction . J. P. has taken share , and deeply drunk in that persecuting Spirit ; and to aggravate his Matter against us on their behalf , he has that Passage reflecting upon the Nonconformists twice over , cited in his Preface from our Pen ( as his Phrase is ) quoting , Quakerism a new Nick name : As also in p. 27. he has the same Passage over again , with another out of William Penn's Book , styled , A just Rebuke to one and twenty Divines , reminding the Presbyterians of their former Proceedings , &c. so that he appears so much disgusted at a Reflection upon the Presbyterians , &c. that he begins and almost concludes his invective and bitter piece about it , as offended that they were upbraided ; such a deeply concerned and zealous Presbyterian Agent is John become . I may give the Reader a hint of one Fling that John has at me , if he had had Sedition or Treason against me , to be sure I should have heard of it , and many more besides . His Fling is this , viz. about F. B. who ( he saith ) was one of the chief Preachers of the Quakers , and in very great esteem among them — This Man is charged , by Jer. Ives , to have justified the late War against the King , and is defended by George Whitehead , another of their chief Preachers , p. 9. To all which I answer , as a Man not Conscious to my self herein . Do but see how fallaciously and deceitfully the matter is stated by this peevish Incendiary ; as namely , upon his repeating the Anabaptists charging E. B. with justifying the late War against the King ( without any Distinction he addeth ) and is defended by G. W. which looks like as if I do defend such a Justification of the late War against the King. What is this but Malice and Wickedness , to render me obnoxious and seditious to the Government , and so uncapable of so much as the Act of Indemnity ? As for a present defending of that War , which I never was concerned in , nor is there any Words of that import in my answer to Ives ( see Serious Search ) which John quotes , but leaves out the principal Matter wherein I defend E. B. in his testifying against the Men then in Power , and the Quakers from Ives his most unjust Accusation against them in these general Words , viz. You justifie the late War against the King : What Impostors , &c. This our Adversary has most enviously seconded , as one beholding to the Anabaptist Preachers ; and was not he a zealous Chaplain , more than a little concerned in the Old Army , against the King himself ? who not very long after his open scurrilous Behaviour , boasting , vapouring and malicious Work against us , was soon cut off by Death . Now J. P. has enlarged upon his Work against us , to render us odious to the Government ; and me in particular , as defending such a Justification of the late Wars against the King ; as his Words may be easily taken , rather than defending our Friend or Friends from that Charge which not only my self , but also many thousands of us and among us are wholly clear of , ( nor did I ever like Wars and Blood-shed ) being a simple-hearted harmless People towards the King and all Men , and do eye the over-ruling Hand and Power of God , and dayly fear him , for our Preservation being in his Holy Will resigned to be patient and passive under what Government he is pleased to set up . Moreover , let the Reader please to take notice how evident John Pennyman's Abuse , Deceit and Falshood is , on some Passages he cites out of a Paper , entituled , A Declaration from the People called Quakers to the present distracted Nation of England , 1659. p. 12. where , upon these Passages , viz. We have chosen the Son of God to be our King , and he hath chosen us to be his People , and he might command thousands and ten thousands of his Saints , at this Day , to fight in his own Cause — and give them Victory over all their Enemies , and turn his Hand upon their Persecutors ; but yet his Kingdom is not of this World , neither is his War-fare with Carnal Weapons , &c. neither hath he chosen us for that End ; neither can we yet believe that he will make use of us in that way , &c. — But for the present we are given up to bear and suffer all things for his Name 's sake , &c. Upon which John Pennyman has this Observation , viz. So that they were not then of that Mind , That the Spirit would never move them to fight : And this he brings to contradict their Declaration to the King 1660. Testifying that the Spirit of Christ which leads them into all Truth , will never move them to fight and war against any Man with outward Weapons . 1. In the first place , I intreat all that read this , to take notice , That the aforesaid Declaration which J. P. has the said Observation upon , ( viz. That the Quakers were not then of that Mind , That the Spirit would never move them to fight ) was ( as he saith , true ) subscribed by many , but tells not the Reader , That he , even John Pennyman himself , was one of those many who subscribed it : As I am sure his own Name is to it , with thirteen or fourteen more ; wherein he hath dealt most disingenuously and deceitfully , thus to reflect upon the Quakers and E. B. about it , without giving any notice how far himself was concerned in it by subscription ; which he must needs see and call to mind , if his Malice did not befool him to overlook ( or not heed ) the Subscriptions ; but his casting it upon E. B. as being moved by his Spirit to give that Paper forth , shews that he has of late looked on the Conclusion of it ; it being there said , That the Substance of this was given forth the twentieth Day of this tenth Month ‖ ; being moved of the Lord , by his Spirit thereunto , through Edward Burroughs , and is now judged meet to be published to the Nation , in the behalf of us and our Friends , under our Hands , viz. Ger. Roberts , Thom. Hart , Gil. Latey , John Anderdon , Joh. Osgood , Robert Benbrick , John Boulton , Ellis Hooks , William Crouch , Gobert Sikes , James Strutt , John Pennyman , John Crook , E. Billings , and Ben. Furley . See now , here is J. Pennyman among the rest , espousing and highly owning the Declaration aforesaid , as the Substance of it being then given forth , at the Motion of the Lord by his Spirit , and published in the behalf of them who subscribed it , and their Friends : Well , I have seriously perused the said Declaration , and I must confess it looks so impartially , and with so much Innocency and Freeness from a fighting Spirit , and so plainly confessing our Choice of the Son of God to be our King , and his Choice of us to be a People , and that his Kingdom is not of this World ; and that his War-fare is not with Carnal Weapons , as also that neither is his Victory by the murthering and killing of Men's Persons , nor hath he chosen us for that end , &c. with divers other Passages to the same purpose , as in p. 8. viz. We do not war against any with Carnal Weapons , neither shall we ever provoke the Nation against us , otherwise than by our Righteous and Holy Walking , &c. That I wonder J. Pennyman should have or allow of such a Construction upon the said Declaration , as , That the Quakers were not then of that Mind , That the Spirit would never move them to fight : Unless John himself had such a Reserve , when he signed that Paper ; which if he had , it was most gross Dissimulation to tell the World , That he , with the rest , had chosen the Son of God to be their King ; and that his War-fare is not with Carnal Weapons , nor his Victory by killing Men's Persons ; nor hath he chosen us for that end . Now if J. P. when he signed this , believed that the Spirit of Christ might , for all this , move him ( or any of them ) to fight ; What abominable Hypocrisy was he guilty of therein ? 1. To proclaim to the World , That he and the rest are become subjects to such a King , as will never allow them to fight . 2. And yet have this private Reserve , That he may move him to fight : But I am perswaded the rest of the Signers of the said Paper had no such deceitful Reserve ; If J. P. had , he was very deceitful , and has now bewrayed the foulness of his own Nest. As for the Words he carps at in the said Paper , to which his own Name is , viz. That the Son of God might command thousands and ten thousands , &c. That 's no Proof that they then believed he would do it ; unless it must be taken for granted , That because he had Power to command thousands to fight , therefore he would do it , and so argue from his Power to his Will , which but mean Logicians would be ashamed of ; when it is as plainly told , That Christ's Kingdom is not of this World , and his Warfare is not with Carnal Weapons ; and that he has not chosen us for that End , as to kill Men's Persons , &c. As that Christ by Prayer could have obtained more than twelve Legions of Angels to have rescued him : But how then should the Scripture be fulfilled , That he must suffer ? As for the other Words , Neither can we yet believe that he ( viz. the Son of God ) will make use of us in that way ( viz. of fighting ) . For our Adversary to infer from the Particle yet , ( where 't is intimated , That yet they could not believe that Christ would move them to fight ) that therefore the Quakers were not then of that Mind , That he would never move them to fight . He might as well have inferred , from their saying , That yet his Kingdom is not of this World : Therefore they were not then of the Mind , That Christ's Kingdom would never be of this World , but that it might become a worldly Kingdom , and his Servants turn Fighters . Thus absurd is our Adversary's Consequence against us , upon a mere small Circumstance or Ambiguity of a Word ; yet [ nevertheless ] is construed by him for yet [ as yet ] as putting the signification of adhuc for tamen . And for the present we are given up to bear and suffer all things for his Names sake : As for the Word present , I grant , if it had been left out , it had appeared more absolute in concurrence with the Substance of the Declaration , which , as 't is said , was given forth by E. B. But that diminutive Phrase ( for the present ) is not essential to the Substance of it , but rather to the manner of speaking : John , it may be , can give account of those Particles , which he has construed so much to the Disadvantage of the whole ; seeing his Name is to the Paper , and he can give or own such an Interpretation of it as that they ( the Quakers ) were not then of that Mind , That the Spirit would never move them to fight , though there be enough in the Paper to evince the contrary , as is before hinted : And if John had any such Reserve , in espousing and signing the said Paper , or did cause the putting in those Words , as that the Spirit of Christ might move him to fight , it is high Time for him to write a Recantation for that and many other Passages ; wherein , while he endeavours to render us suspicious and obnoxious to the Government , he has greatly bewrayed his own dark , envious and perfideous Spirit , whose Practice and Method in his Book , generally is to snarle , snatch and catch at such Passages in our Friends Books , as he thinks most to make Advantage of , to render us Temporizers , odious and obnoxious to the present Government , and commonly to pass by and leave out such Passages , Threats and Prophecies as were directly against the former Men in Power , and their Oppressions and Cruelties that were inflicted in the Protector 's Days . But as for the aforesaid Declaration to the distracted Nation of England , subscribed as aforesaid , 't is so Impartial and Plain , and against the Oppressions , &c. under the several Governments in this Nation , lamenting the Judgments and Calamities thereof , that I wish he had published it all to the Nation , for it would very much have tended to clear our Innocency from his unjust Imputations and Insinuations against us as a People . And to manifest our clearness from Temporizing and Parties ; and our Testimony against Fighting , Warring and Killing , &c. as inconsistent with Christ's Government and Kingdom . And now pray further consider , did not our Lord Jesus Christ in his Parable concerning them that Intreated the King's Servants spightfully and slew them , acknowledge the Justice of his Father , in sending forth his Armies , and destroying those Murderers , and burning of their City ? Mat. 22. 7. and also against those Husbandmen who slew the Heir , whom the Lord miserably destroyed , Mat. 21. 7. and Luke 20. 14. were not these Parables against Jerusalem , and the Jews who persecuted and slew the Prophets of God , and his Son Christ the Heir ? Did not he therein Prophesie against Jerusalem , and of the destruction thereof , and so far recognize that War , and miserable Destruction that came upon them , as a just judgment from God ? and yet his Kingdom being not of this World , his Servants might not fight , being under an Injunction to the contrary ; was Christ therein contradictory to himself or to his Testimony , for his Servants not fighting ? no sure . And the Apostle Paul acknowledged the Magistrate or Rulers place , as owning his Office in not bearing the Sword in vain , but as being the Minister of God , a Revenger to execute Wrath upon him that doth evil , Rom. 13. and yet exhorted his Brethren the Saints , not to avenge themselves , but rather give place unto Wrath , Rom. 12. 19. did the Apostle herein contradict himself or his Christian Testimony ? pray consider it . Now suppose a Government ( according to their own principles ) in one Nation , should require their Subjects or Friends innocent Blood unjustly shed , in another Nation by Murders , Massacres , &c. would not this be just , and may not God in vindictive Justice and Judgment , stir up a Power or Government , ( whose Principle is accordingly ) to such an act , as he did the Romans against Jerusalem , and the persecuting Jews ? And for any of his Servants so far to recognize the same , as a just Judgment ; how do they therein either contradict their Christian Principle , which is , not to avenge themselves , nor to use carnal and destroying Weapons , either for Christ's Kingdom , or the Kingdoms of this World ? as being unsuitable Instruments for Christ's Lambs and Sheep to make use of , whatever use God in Judgment may cause or suffer to be made thereof among Nations in the Fall ; it is not consistent with the saving Gospel of Christ , or nature of his Lambs , Sheep , Innocent Followers and Sufferers , to make use of the devouring Sword , to destroy others who cannot defend themselves therein ; and therefore is it not more just and warrantable for Governments ( who have a Power , and the Sword of Justice ) to defend the Lambs and Sheep of Christ , yea Nations and People ( so far as their power extends ) from devouring Beasts of Prey , rather then to persecute , oppress or suffer them to be devoured by any others , who seek their ruin ? And yet we hope for the fulfilling of those Evangelical Prophecies that foretel the end of Wars , Strife and Contention , and Christ's Kingdom of Peace to be set up and exalted to the ends of the Earth : Send Peace in our times O Lord. That accusation , that the Quakers use Forms of Oaths , refuted . WHereas John Pennyman has several times over an accusation against us , 1st . in his Title Page , viz. Also one of the Forms of their Oaths used among themselves . And again , p. 29. he saith , here followeth one of the Forms of the Quakers Oaths , which S. Crisp one of their great Preachers , imposed upon one called a Quaker , who had mortgaged his Land to him and others , for a Sum of Mony , but before he would let him have the said Mony , he forced him ( though with dissatisfaction ) to Sign and Seal this following , which by their own definition of an Oath , is an absolute Oath , ( saith I. P. ) The matter he intends for an Oath lies in these words , viz. I do hereby testifie in the Truth of my Heart , and in the presence of him that knows all things , &c. that I have not before this contract , sold or engaged the said Estate , to or with any Person , &c. which being given under Hand and Seal , in the presence of two Witnesses ; our Adversary concludes it a Form of an Oath ( and has made a hideous clamour about this business ) according to the Quakers own definition of an Oath , quoting a second Testimony concerning Oaths , 1675. p. 3 , 4 , 5. viz. that these Forms of Speeches used by the Apostles , and by Jacob and Laban are of themselves ( without the addition of somewhat more , as an outward Sign or Pledge ) neither Oath or Swearing , which somewhat more as an outward Sign or Pledge , was that which gave the denomination of an Oath or Swearing , &c. Answ. 1. As to the words [ one of the Forms of the Quakers Oaths ] this is a deceitful Aspersion , containing a two-fold Falshood , 1st . That the Quakers do use Oaths or Swearing . 2dly . That they use several Forms of Oaths or Swearing , and this from a particular or private act not of the Quakers , but of one call'd a Quaker , which whether that was an Oath or not , wee 'll enquire anon . 3dly . That accusation that S. C. Imposed upon and forced him ( though with dissatisfaction ) to sign and seal his Testimony . This S. C. absolutely denies that he so forced him , or that he shewed any dissatisfaction therein . And now to come more closely to the cause alledged against us , to prove us Swearers , or guilty of useing Forms of Oaths . Answ. 2. In the passage before cited are two actions of different natures , Religious and Civil , which must be distinguished ; if a faithful Friend without scrupling his Confession , containing the substance of the old Oath , had been sufficient ; otherwise his Hand and Seal , engaging both himself and his was added . This is the same we offer to the Magistrate ; if unfaithful , we engage the penalty of the Law against Perjury . His Hand and Seal was not an outward Sign or Pledge to make it an Oath , but to make the Penalty legal , as a witness against him , to those to whom his verbal Confession could not , without them and other Witnesses extend nor appear effectual . To confirm our Assertion , that some outward Sign gives the denomination of Swearing ( which some outward Sign , or somewhat more is not any ( or every ) thing more ) and that the Apostle's words and others , were but Asseverations ; see the Testimonies in our Treatise of Oaths of Basil Nazianzen , &c. pag. 61 , 65 , 18. Bishop Sanderson de Jur. oblig . about pag. 141 , 142. and others there . If the Party were a real Friend he confessed , if not , he engaged ; besides we have more fully defined an Oath , and the particular Ceremonies thereof , than what our Adversary cites amounts to , in our Book in answer to I. S. entituled , The case of the Quakers concerning Oaths defended as Evangelical . As first , concluding that only saying , God is my Witness , Rom. 1. 9. I say the Truth in Christ , I lie not , Rom. 9. 1. And calling God to Witness to the Truth of what we say , &c. are no Oaths ; we cannot be convinced that any of these , make up a formal Oath among Christians : And then we give the definition of an Oath , as used among Men , ( viz. ) That first there is Swearing by the great God intended . 2dly . Ab Imprecation or Curse contained . 3dly . Some Ceremony or Sign used , see Case of the Quakers concerning Oaths defended , p. 6. And then for the several Ways or Ceremonies expressing formal Swearing , they are signified thus , viz. Among the Heathen , laying the Hands upon the Altars and Swearing by the Gods , Jurare aras , Horace . Abraham's Servant putting his Hand under his Thigh , Gen 24. 2. and 47. 29. The Angel lifting up his Hand towards Heaven . The professed Christians laying the Hand upon a Bible and kissing it , or Swearing upon the four Evangelists , according to the Pope's Imposition , p. 7. So that the somewhat else is here restrained to such and such Ceremonies respectively , and here limited , and not in general to any or every thing used in civil Obligations , not intending or belonging to it , to the making it an Oath ; as that of the Hand and Seal is a Testimony to the Writing , to be a true Record of his Confession , both as a civil Man , and also Religious . And therefore also an obligation to restitution is faulty , both by the arbitrement and censure of the Religious , if brought before them ; and also of the civil , honest , if before such , and Courts of Justice also : If not , it is through their defect , not admitting a Testimony without Swearing and granting Restitution in case of Couzenage , which we consider not ; as when we bring Witnesses , or are brought as Witnesses before them , or offer our Service in the Common-wealth ; it 's their fault in refusing our just offer , not ours in refusing their unjust one . If it was I. P. ( or suppose such an one ) had S. C. acted the wise Man , in taking his Confession without such record with Hand and Seal ? nay it seems he had more than ordinary confidence in the Man , that he so much valued his Affirmation , and every engagement that Men make under Hand and Seal ( though God's Name be mentioned therein ) is not therefore an Oath . For are the last Wills and Testaments of the deceased , Oaths or Swearing ; which are made and begun [ In the Name of God Amen ] and confirmed with Hand and Seal ? Are these Oaths , or esteemed the Oaths of the deceased , because mention is made of the Name of God , and Hand and Seal to them ? If Hand and Seal to any contract or promise ( wherein possibly some ●ccasionally have made mention of the Name of God ( which we are very tender of using ) make it an Oath , I confess this is a new definition of an Oath . And he that assisted J. P. in this Accusation and other Notes , Observations , and most unjust Inferences against us , may very well be ashamed of such malicious work , and of his abetting him therein ; and his sculking shall not excuse , hide or rescue him ( or J. P. either ) from the righteous Judgment and stroak of God's Hand . Let them note and remember this : I have not writ out of any ill will to them or their Persons , but from a holy Zeal for Truth and Righteousness , against the contrary in them , Being a Friend to the Souls of all Men , G. W. An Appendix to the Precedent Treatise : Being a Collection of divers Remarkable Passages , by several Hands , but omitted and left out by our Adversary in his Quotations out of the same Books , made use of by him , wherein his unfair Dealing and Abuse may the more appear , and also the Innocency and Clearness of the People of God , and true Christians , called Quakers , from Wars and Figbting , and their constant Testimony against the Ground thereof ; as also their plain and impartial Dealing with the former Powers , in testifying against the great Persecutions and Persecutors in the Protector 's Days : All which being seriously considered , together with the many faithful Warnings from the said People to those in Power , all-a long , ever since they were a People , doth shew that there are Prophets of God among them , and manifestly clear them from that most unjust Charge , of being Temporizers , &c. And also shews the great Disingenuity of our present Adversary , in his picking , carping , quarrelling and perverting , as much to our Disadvantage as he can imagine , like those whom the Prophet complained of , Psal. 56. 5. Every day they wrest my words ; all their thoughts are against me for evil . OBserve the following Collections and Citations , with the brief Notes thereupon . Good Counsel ( p. 37. ) to O. C. After the Words cited by J. P. p. 5. viz. That thou nor they may lose that Dread of the Lord , J. P. leaves out , viz. for that strikes a Terror in the Hearts of all People . Observ. This Dread is preferred above the Arm of Flesh and Carnal Weapons . And learn true Patience — And the patient Spirit remains in the Lord's Work , for that is it that tryes , stands and abides , which gets the Victory and obtains the Crown . left out . Observ. Herein he writ to them , as a Minister of the Gospel of Peace , and not to incite them to fight and shed Blood , &c. Hear the Voice of God , and it will keep thee from Hardness of Heart . Ibid. p. 27. Observ. And consequently from Oppression and Cruelty , had he hearkned to it ; this was seasonable Advice , tho too much rejected . The Lord hath visited thy House , because thou hast suffered thy Servants to smite the Servants of the Lord and Lambs of Christ , and prisoned the Lambs , and his Sons and Daughters , some until Death ; therefore thy Sons and Daughters , and Servants will I take away with Death , and visit thee and thy House with Sickness , saith the Lord ; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord , who reigns . Therefore spare my Sons and Daughters , that I may spare thee and thy House , and that thou mayest know , that I am the Lord. O how art thou fallen under Men , and thy House will suffer as long as my Sons and Daughters , and Servants suffer by thee and thy Servants , and dye in Prison , and you not visiting them , nor suffering their own Friends to visit them , therefore take heed lest thou become weak as Water , &c. Ibid. to O. C. p. 36. writ the 10th of the 6th . Month. left out by J. P. p. 5. Observ. What plain Reproof and conditional Threats the aforesaid Paper contains against O. Cromwel and his Family , because of the Oppression and Persecution in his Dayes ; and how unlike a temporizing Spirit this was . After ( crumble Men under ) he leaves out stand up in the Power of the Lord , and the Lamb's Authority . Observ. Which Power and Authority would have invisibly subjected Mens Spirits to quietness , which I understand by the Phrase , as by the Dread of the Lord , striking Terror into the Hearts of People ; and not in a literal Sense to crumble their Persons to Crumbs or small Pieces : That were a gross Sense indeed , which the following Passages clear him of ; for the Lamb's Power does not destroy Men's Lives , but saves them . 1659. To the Parliament of the Commonwealth of England , G. F. p. 16. He that fights with Creatures , with Flesh and Blood , he cannot fight with Spiritual Wickedness and Powers of Darkness , with Swords and Spears : He that fights with Swords and Spears , fights with Flesh and Blood , doth not preach the Gospel to that which is captivated with the Powers of Darkness : He that runs against the Creature with Swords and Spears , and defaces and mars it , doth not go the way to bring it into the Liberty of the Sons of God. not in J. P' s Observ. A plain Testimony to the Gospel Dispensation against Fighting and Killing one another , plainly clearing G. F. in that Point . G. F. To the Protector and Parliament , 1658. After ( lose the Power of God ) these Words are left out , viz. When the Children of Israel went from that of God in them , they would have Kings , as other Nations had , as Transgressors had ; and so God gave them one . J. P's Citation , p. 3. Observ. So when God has given one , is it temporizing or contradiction in us to own and submit to him , as far as we can with clearness of Conscience ? After ( take heed of putting honest godly Men out of the Army , J. P. p. 6. ) J. P. leaves out Or putting them out of their Places , being Justices of the Peace . G. F. to R. Protector . Observ. For such Army-Men and Justices there were turned out , that were against Persecution , and did relieve and rescue many of us , when in great Sufferings and Jeopardies by cruel Persecutors , who sought our Lives : Had we not good reason then , even as Men , to oppose their turning out of such ? G. F. To the Council of Officers , p. 2. After ( the Power of God you have abused ) J. P. leaves out , which had you lived in , you and the Nations had been quiet therein , and all the Oppressed had had Liberty , and the Lord had been the Joy of every ones Heart , and the Spoil of the Enemies had not taken up the Possession of the Heart , as it hath ; so that the Lord hath no place , nor his People ; but the just hath been troden under Foot , and made a Prey on every hand . Left out by J. P. Observ. A just reproof of , and Testimony against their Oppression , Unfaithfulness and Persecution , when many of us lay in Goals at that Time , for whom several hundreds went several Times to the Parliament , to offer up themselves to lye in Goals and Dungeons for them , and in their stead that were in Prisons , that they might come forth ; but instead of granting Friends ▪ Desire in that Case , they threatned to whip them . And when our Friends were excommunicated in Scotland , that they might neither buy nor sell ; A poor Man , who had bought a Loaf , had it fetched from him , because he was excommunicated by the Presbyterians ; upon which Colonel Ashfied , being a Justice of Peace in that Country , made an Order , That in such Case People might buy and sell with our Friends , though they were excommunicated ; so that had not G. F. good reason to write to the Council of Officers , against their displacing such Men that were so tender towards us , when the ruder sort of Soldiers came with Swords and Pistols , and tore Friends from off their Knees , when at Prayers ? And the persecuting sort of Justices and others , frequently breaking up our Meetings , under pretence that we were plotting to bring in King Charles , &c. And the Words ( by which Nations about you are lifted up , and stand at your Doors ) are left out by J. P. Observ. This came from a Prophetical Sense of their declining and downfal . After ( Cause of God and his Truth ) he leaves out ( without any End to your selves , but the good of all People ; for the Releasement of all People out of Thraldom , Bondage and Captivity . ) J. P. p. 8. Observ. This was the End for which the Army was told of going to Rome , &c. viz. the breaking down Oppression , and not to destroy , kill and take possession . But when you lost the Power , then came the Innocent to be cast into Prison ; above twenty hundred have been persecuted and imprisoned , within these few Years , for Conscience-sake , towards the Lord. Left out . After ( God's Cause ) he leaves out That set open the Prison Doors ; that will let none be persecuted for Religion : But now you have Prisons to break down at home , where lyes about two hundred Prisoners in Dungeons and nasty dark Holes , for the Word of God. Left out . P. 3. Those things at home to be thrown down , which are destructive to the being of Creatures . Ibid. For above twenty of the Innocent Lambs have been persecuted , and their Blood shed in the Streets , and high Ways , and imprisoned till death in this Nation , within these few years : And godly and peaceable Meetings have been broken up by Men , with Bills , Staves and Pistols , and their Blood lies upon this Nation ; and God hath required it , and will require it of their Heads , who might have stopt this Martyrdom a great while ago , which was in their power , and did it not . For Bonds , Prisons , Fetters , Houses of Correction , Dungeons , do yet attend the Lambs and Babes of Christ in this Nation , who have been tryed these several years , &c. whose Blood hath been shed , and they beat and cruelly bruised , and tortured , and whipped as Vagrants , their Flesh tortured , till it has been ragged ; and yet this hath not asswaged the Adversary : For the Lord is risen , who will plead the cause of the Innocent , not by Sword nor by Spear , but by his power , &c. Left out . Observ. Here was no cause for a charge of Temporizing , nor any dependance on Sword or Spear , nor any siding with those Oppressors , but very plain and faithful dealing . Ibid. p. 5. Who obeys Christ , loves his Enemies , and is in him the Truth , who saves Mens Lives ; but who is out of the Truth will kill and compel and persecute to death . Observ. See how plain this is against Killing , Compulsion and Persecution , and for the saving of Mens lives . Before [ many valiant Captains , &c ] he leaves out [ many Justices of Peace , Faithful , &c. to keep the Peace , and to keep down the rude Multitude , you have put out , whereby you have been the cause of letting all the Bruits upon them , that matter not Law nor Religion , &c. ] J. P. p. 8. After ( many * valiant Captains , Soldiers and Officers , have been put out of the Army ) he leaves out ( whereby the Rude have fallen upon them , and they been counted as a thing of nought , &c. Oh the Blood that hath been shed in this Nation for Truths sake ! ( This related to the cruelty inflicted on many called Quakers ) Oh what knocking down in Markets and Steeple-houses and going to Meetings , and sending Men up and down with Passes , as Vagrants , Men worth three or fourscore Pounds a Year . — These Men that persecute and whip Men of three or fourscore Pounds a Year , &c. p. 5. Observ. Was there not great Cause to reprehend them , for turning out such Captains , Officers and Magistrates as laboured to keep the Peace , to quiet the rude Multitude , and to preserve the Innocent ? And were not such to be commended in their Place ? Had we not cause to own and esteem such as endeavoured our Preservation , and not to shew our selves ungrateful , much more than those that sought to destroy us ? What has J. P. against this , when we went in the hazard of our Lives daily ? Oh , how are Men fallen from that which they were at first , when thousands of us went in the Front of you ! J. P. p. 8. Observ. But this was not as Quakers , but before they were such , and it is known G. F. was never a Soldier , as before . ( And were with you in the greatest Heat , &c. ) Thus far J. P's Quotation . The reason whereof was in the precedent Words , which he takes no notice of , viz. Oh what breaking of Windows , unthatching of Houses , Men coming in disguised , with Swords and Pistols , into Meetings , binding some Hand and Foot , carrying them into the Fields , leaving them there all Night in the Winter-Season . Oh what Havock hath been made of the People of God , that they have rode in and trampled among them with their Horses , and pluckt him up by the Hair of the Head , that was on his Knees , praying to the Lord ; whereby the Persecution in this Nation hath given an ill Savour unto the Nations hereabout , and rings abroad in the World : That when Friends are moved of the Lord to go into other Nations , to declare the Truth of God and his Word , they cast it upon them , and imprison many , and say they will serve them and do to them as their own Nation does . Then follows , Oh how are Men fallen from that which they were in at first , when thousands of us , &c. were with you in the greatest Heat ! [ Observ. That was as zealous Army-men , before the People called Quakers were brought forth ] who looked not for the Spoil but the Good of the Nation , and now thus should be served by those that are set down in the Possession of the Spoil , that they should requite us so in the End : Oh , the Lord's Truth , the Lord's Power , and the Lord's Arm is more dear to us than all ; who have not sat down in the Spoil , &c. who are come to the Lord , who hath given us Victory , and hath brought us to the Light , that takes away the Occasion and Root of the War. Observ. Those who zealously aimed at an Universal Good , and were not self-ended , came to see the End of Wars , and ceased to be Soldiers then . Oh what a sincerity was once in the Nation ! What a dirty , nasty thing it would have been , to have heard talk of a House of Lords among them ? J. P. p. 8. Observ. That was among them who made People engage against them , yet made themselves Lords , so manifestly contrary to their own pretences . ( And sat down in the spoil of the House of the Enemies . left out . Observ. Thus J. P. has frequently abused us , in leaving out , and passing by many material passages , and catching and snarling at others , occasional and circumstantial . E. B. to R. Cromwell . After he tells him of his Fathers Victories and Prosperity , J. P. leaves out the following remarkable words , viz. ( But yet we know he abused his great Deliverances and Authority ; and did not set free the Oppressed , but left Mountains of Oppressions and grievous yokes of Bondage , unbroken down and unsubdued ; and the Lord smote him , and took him away in judgment because thereof . Left out by J. P. p. 13. Observ. See how plainly this Protector was reminded of his Fathers abuse and negligence , on purpose to warn him of the like evils and judgment . ( And before in the beginning of the Letter to R. C. ) p. 52. The Lord God over the Kingdoms of Men Ruleth and Reigneth , he Buildeth and Breaketh down , and Planteth and Plucketh up , he pulleth down one , and setteth up another ; and who may say , what dost thou ? Observ. See here was an Eye to the Hand of the Lord in revolutions , from whom both promotion and abasement comes ; and this is no Temporizing , nor admits of it . West answering North. It 's said upon Peter Ceeleys falsly accusing G. F. with telling him privately of a design , and perswading him to joyn therein . Which design was , that he could raise four thousand Men in an hours warning , and involve the Nation in Blood , and bring in K. Charles : And this he was accused of before Judge Glin , Chief Justice of England , to take away his life . Note p. 27. J. P. p. 11. 1656. Quoting G. Rofe to O. C. entituled , The Righteousness of God to Man , viz. after ( executed on them to the utmost ) these following words are left out by J. P. viz. ( but thou art fallen from thy first Integrity and in the spoil art exalted , and set up in the Glory of the World ; in thy Name and by thy Power do my pure Seed suffer , and Tyrants rule over my People , and by thy Power and in thy Name do they persecute them , and imprison unto death , and have spilled the Blood of my innocent People , to satisfie their corrupt desires ; but surely I will visit for these things ; and much do they lie upon thee . And if thou lettest Tyrants get rulè in thy name , and by thy Power , on thee and thy Seed will I require the Blood of the innocent , that hath been shed in these late days , under thy Government , &c. Observ. How plainly the Oppressors in those days were charged and warned and prophesied against , which in a great measure is fulfilled already . F. H's . Information and Advice to the Army on both parts , and Committee of Safety , 1659. P. 2. Should not all Rule and Authority , be for the good and safety and well being of a Nation or Commonwealth ? Observ ( The true end of Government always owned and desired by us . ) P. 3. Was not Israel governed sometime by Judges , sometimes by the Elders , and sometimes by Kings ? And while they stood in the Councel of the Lord , and the People hearkned to them , was not the Lord among them ? &c. P. 5. And this I have to say to that part of the Army , who stand so much upon the Name Parliament . If you should manage your Weapons for a sound or a name , or something that may suit you , though damnifie many thousands , it will not go well with you ; therefore be not rash nor hasty to shed Blood upon this account , but take Counsel in time , lest an out-stretched Arm stop you in your way , &c. and you may repent too late . Observ. How impartially he writes for the real end of Government , without respect of Persons ▪ or Names , when we were so much accused for denying Government ? P. 6. After late King in J. P' s. Book , p. 15 he leaves out these following words , viz. Yet the Ax must not boast it self against him that hewed only with it , for a time , to accomplish his end , and when he pleases take up another Instrument , and let the first lye still . Observ. The Hand of God in setting up and putting down Men in Power , confessed . Before the words ( a Company of greedy Hireling Priests came from Lestershire , to sound their Trumpet in the House , &c. ) he leaves out these words , p. 7. viz. But truly you stick in the Mire , &c. had your Ear open to them that could complement and flatter , and their business you would hear and return them thanks ; but them who had been your dearest Friends , &c. coming in all Love and Humility , and represented their sad Suffering unto you of their long Imprisonment , and how above twenty dear precious Men suffered till death in Prison , for that grand oppression of Tythes , could not be heard : And again , when a Representation came unto you from many thousands , &c. it was laid by as wast Paper . Observ. How plainly they were reprov'd for setting up Temporizers , and slighting conscientious Sufferers . P. 10. Remove the present oppressions — Satisfie the Nations with deeds , words will not ; with things , and not with names , that will not do ; and it is not a King , a Parliament , a Protector , a Council or a Senate we look at , &c. for when Kings , Parliaments and Councils , are gone from the power of God , they are for the Thraldom of a Nation , and not for its Liberty ; but this I forewarn you , what ever you do , meddle not in the things of God , or about Religion , &c. let that alone , &c. Observ. Still the good End of Government for true Freedom , was pressed for more than Words or Names , when we were under great Persecution . Several Papers , by G. F. 1659. P. 42. After the Words ( have not these been called Ministers of the Gospel , but now how comes it that they preach up War ) he leaves out these following Words , viz. Is not the Gospel a Gospel of Peace ? Observ. How plain is it that his Principle was against War and Fighting , &c. as not consisting with the Gospel of Peace ? Wounds of an Enemy by Miles Halhead and Th. Salthouse 1656. P. 76. After the words ( Enemies of his Elect ) J. P. leaves out , viz. And shall this Generation who have exceeded what hath been done by their Fathers , go unpunisht ? After the words Justice and Equity , he leaves out these , viz. And shall those whom he hath made the Rod of his Anger , and the Staff of his Indignation , upon their doing the same things for which he judged and cast them out , escape ? Hath all this Blood been shed , that unrighteousness may reign with oppression , &c. After the words ( Examples of his Vengeance ) he leaves out these , viz. To make way for others to rise up and commit greater Abominations ; was persecution of tender Consciences unjust in the Bishops , and is it righteous now in them who suffered by them for their tender Consciences , to outstrip the Bishops ? Observ. The Persecutors in the Pretector's days , are more highly charg'd and threatned , than those who went before them . The Visitation of Ireland 1656. by F. H. E. B. P. 21. Two Lines after the Words ( true to the Commonwealth-Interest from first to last , even until now ) J. Pennyman leaves out these , viz. And you have judged us before our Accusers came ; And herein you do us great Injustice , and act contrary to the Law of Equity , &c. Observ. This relates to the Time when H. Cromwel banished them out of Ireland . P. 22. After the Words ( Bishops — become a Reproach ) he leaves out these , viz. And will you tell of Reformation , and yet act in the same Footsteps ? if you go on you are at the Brink of Destruction , and at the Sides of the Pit — was not Persecution ever blind ? Observ. How plainly they rendred those , then in Power , unjust and self-condemn'd in their Persecution , and therein in the way of Destruction . A Visitation and Warning , by E. B. Fol. 537. After the Words ( it would be your Honour to be made use of by the Lord in any degree , in order to this Matter , viz. visiting Rome , and enquiring after the Innocent Blood therein ) J. P. leaves out these , viz. Whether the Lord will Revenge the grievous Blood-guiltiness that lies upon them , by himself , without an Instrument ; or whether by you or others , as Instruments , whether this way or another that God will do it , this I determine not . Observ. First , It is plain that he believed it would have been an Act of Justice to have made Enquiry for that Innocent Blood , mentioned , as they had often pretended , and declared to the Nation ; and this our Adversary has not refuted , and therefore it may yet be queried of him , Whether he does not believe that righteous Rulers or Magistrates may not in point of Justice ( according to the Law of God ) require Innocent Blood upon Persecutors , or Satisfaction in that Case , though it be not the Quakers Work to be employed therein , in Point of Execution , if there be any for that . Secondly , Whether the Lord will suffer Bloodguiltiness to go unpunished , either by himself or by Instruments ; 't is plain that E. B. believed he would revenge it , but did not determine which way ; and has it not been always confessed that Rulers are for the Punishment of Evil-doers ? J. P. Observ. p. 9. against G. F. On the Words ( many have been put out of the Army , because of their Faithfulness to the Lord ) he addeth this meaning , that is , For being Quakers , as he intimates ; Which is a Perversion , as if proved : It was faithfulness to the Cause ( viz. Liberty of Conscience ) professed by them , as Army-men and not as Quakers . On the Words , ( the Power of the Lord will give you enough , &c. ) he observes , That he counsels them not to stop till they have set up their Standard at Rome , and they shall have Gold and Silver enough : Which is a foul Perversion ; for G. F's Words are to look at the Power of the Lord God , and never heed Gold nor Silver . G. F's Book of several Papers , printed in 1659. to the Protector and others . He writes to them in one Paper as followeth , Wrastle not with Flesh and Blood , ye Christians , for it is the Practice of Heathens , Apostates and Jews ; but overcome Evil with Good , receive Strangers and not kill them , &c. p. 48. And again G. F. saith , p. 44. of the same , Do to all Men as you would have them do unto you , and on this hangs all the Law and the Prophets , &c. I say unto you , Love your Enemies , for the Jews were to kill them , the Heathen , with outward Swords : But the Doctrin of Christ was to love Enemies ; who saith , he came to save Mens Lives , and gave his Body for the Life of the World : But the Jews persecuted their Enemies , as you the Hypocrites and false Christians , since the Apostles Dayes . And in p. 43. And the Priests told you ( to wit , the Powers ) that the Quakers would kill you , and Quakers would rise . And in p. 41. Can you stop the Vials and the Plagues that are to come upon the Persecutors , &c. Can you refuse the Cup of the Wrath of the Almighty , when it is given to you , can you turn your Mouths and Heads aside , for not drinking of it ? And in p. 31. The Apostles were Spiritual , and wrastled not with Flesh and Blood , they had the Mind of Christ , that destroyed Death and the Devil , the Power of Death ; but you have disobeyed it , that persecutes your Brethren , the Christians , to Death ; you are not in the High Power of Christ , &c. but you are in the Power that hates and destroys the Creatures , &c. out of the Love of God to Enemies ; and these will wrastle with Flesh and Blood , being in the Power of Darkness , the Devil's Work , and so defaces the Creature , and doth not bring it into the Liberty of the Sons of God ; these should be ashamed of their Work before the Lord , &c. For whom he sends he arms ( but this is not carnal ) but your Day is come of Tryal , the Day is come of Christendoms Tryal . And in p. 29. The Patience of the Sufferings of the People of God , that suffer daily are Examples and Patterns among you , &c. which may convince you ; not threatning , not lifting up their Hands against you , but committing their Cause to the Lord , who doth avenge the Cause of his People . &c. and will overturn , &c. And in p. 28. Cain killed his Brother , about sacrificing , and how hath the Apostate Christians since the Apostles Days , killed his Brother Christian , about Sacrifice and Religion , &c. this has been the false Church . And p. 26. Is it not Time to awake out of this Murderers Power , into the Power of Christ Jesus , &c. which is pure and Lamb-like , &c. And p. 15. That which you ask is to be asked in the Son's Name , and what you do , to be done in the Name of Jesus : And the Apostle doth not say in the Name of an Earthly King , Emperour or Protector ; they were to do it in the Name of Christ , who hath all Power in Heaven and Earth given to him ( and was not this when some would have made Oliver King , who was called Protector ? ) THE END . PAge 10. l. 10. f. B. Boyce , r. T. B. l. 11. r. J. P. p. 28. l. ult . r. keep . p. 30. l. 27. f. wi●● r. will. dele ●e . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65856-e1800 * ( This he says , G. F. and E. B. told Rich. Protector , and quotes good Council and Advice , p. 44. Which is a Falshood touching G. F. for that was none of his Paper , nor his Words or Stile ; here he has falsly entituled that to G. F. which was none of his . ) The War began in 1641 , and in the Year 1648 the King was beheaded , and all this while no Quakers heard of in the Nation , nor till about 50 , 51 , or 52. when there was no Wars in England for them to be concerned in ; How false then is J. P. to say , The Quakers were as much or more concerned in the War against the King as any other ? † Note that the words that most tended to clear G. F's . intent in this matter , J. P. very unfairly leaves out , as after Earthly King , he leaves out , ( and earthly Powers , and will change as they change ) As also , ( have put out Christ , and would not have him to reign ) these words he leaves out . As also , after ( all Kings made in Mens earthly wills ) he leaves out ( THAT WILL NOT HAVE CHRIST TO REIGN ) These with several other material pasages , hath J. P. very dissingenuously left out of those several passages quoted by him , writ long before the K's . Restauration , tho' Printed the year before . ‖ 1659. Matth. 26. 53 , 54. Notes for div A65856-e8680 * For it was such as had been instrumental sometimes to save the lives of many of our Friends , in rescuing them from the rude Multitude . See good Counsel , p. 53. 
A65860	----	The counterfeit convert, a scandal to Christianity and his unjustly opposing Quakerism to Christianity justly reprehended : and the true Christ, and Holy Scripures [sic] confessed by the Quakers : in opposition to two scandalous books falsly styled I. Quakerism withering, and Christianity reviving, II. Animadversions on G. Whitehead's book, Innocency triumphant. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1694 Approx. 129 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 46 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65860 Wing W1922 ESTC R38605 17806842 ocm 17806842 106641 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65860) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 106641) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1109:15) The counterfeit convert, a scandal to Christianity and his unjustly opposing Quakerism to Christianity justly reprehended : and the true Christ, and Holy Scripures [sic] confessed by the Quakers : in opposition to two scandalous books falsly styled I. Quakerism withering, and Christianity reviving, II. Animadversions on G. Whitehead's book, Innocency triumphant. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [16], 75 p. Printed and sold by T. Sowle ..., London : 1694. Preface signed: George Whitehead. Error in paging: p. 63 misprinted 64. Reproduction of original in the Cambridge University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Bugg, Francis, 1640-1724? -- Quakerism withering. Crisp, Thomas, 17th cent. -- Animadversions on George Whitehead's book. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Counterfeit Convert , A SCANDAL TO CHRISTIANITY , AND His unjustly opposing Quakerism to Christianity justly reprehended . AND THE True Christ , and Holy Scripures Confessed by the QUAKERS . In opposition to Two Scandalous Books falsly styled I. Quakerism Withering , and Christianity Reviving . II. Animadversions on G. Whitehead's Book , Innocency Triumphant . Obad. 3. The Pride of thine Heart hath deceived thee . Rom. 1. 31. Without natural Affection , Implacable , Unmerciful . LONDON : Printed and Sold by T. Sowle , at the Crooked-Billet in Holloway-Lane ; Shoreditch , 1694. AN EPISTLE TO THE Impartial READER . I Do hereby sincerely and in good Conscience declare , that 't is not for Controversy's sake , nor in love thereto , that I am so much engaged therein ; a Peaceable and Amicable Conversation towards all Men , and their Quiet Behaviour , ( though of different Perswasions ) being far more desirable and acceptable to me : Nor am I the beginner of these Controversies or Contentions , being wholly defensive in my Concern therein ; but for the living Truth and an Innocent Peoples sake , to remove those gross Aspersions which are cast upon both , chiefly by Contentious Apostate Adversaries , which are of the most disingenuous and malicious , who are more skilful in Perverting and Aspersing , than Disputing ; their Pamphlets being stuft with Reviling and Railery , not with Argument . And if I did not really believe a necessity laid upon me ( in point of Conscience towards God , and love to his People , ) to discover and oppose their foul Abuses , bitter Aspersions and gross Calumnies , they might rail on against my self and others , till wearied and out of Breath , and the Fire of their own Envy consume them . But the Controversie is not Personal only , but the Holy Truth is concerned , our Christian Faith and Religion is concerned , our Holy Profession is concerned : And these furious Adversaries will needs concern , ( and would fain incense ) the Civil Government with their invective Pamphlets against us , to render u● as highly obnoxious to the same as they can ▪ And therefore we have been the more under a necessity to detect , oppose and obviate their malicious Designs , that our Innocency may not unjustly lye under such Clouds of Infamy and Scandals as they unjustly cast upon us . As Fra. Bugg endeavoured to incense the House of Commons , against the People called Quakers , with a Malicious Pamphlet ( to interrupt our Endeavours for Relief of the said People in the Case of Oaths , ) therein most falsly charging the said People with Denying Jesus of Nazareth , Contempt of Governours , Christ's Ministers and Magistrates , Scripture , &c. Having before in his late Book stiled New Rom. Arraign'd , termed Twelve of us Perjured Persons for our Negative Testimony against his so charging the Quakers with Denying Jesus of Nazareth , &c. and thereupon acting his Mock-Trial , forging our Answers and Erecting the form of a Pillory , and thereby scandalizing divers Citi●ens ( of good Repute and Credit , ) as Per●ured Persons , thereby affecting not only ●heir Christian , but Civil Reputations , ●randing the said People and their Mini●●ers , with these Characters , viz. New ●ome , Rome's Sister , the Papists their ●rethren , and with following the Steps of the Jesuits ; and withal , terming one of their Ministers , one of her chief Cardinals ; ( i. e. New Rome's , ) and consequently this is no better than to render the said People Papists in a high degree . Now let the Impartial and Judicious judge : First , Whether his unjust Attempts herein , and his thus misrepresenting us , do not greatly ten● to lessen and injure the Protestant Interest , and consequently to gratifie the Papists . Secondly . Ana is not this a plain Contradiction to the Government , which has been pleased legally to recognize us as Dissenting Protestants . Thirdly , And what Ingenuity , Honesty or Prudence hath F. Bugg or his Abettors shewn , in thus representing a Body of Protestant Subjects , as New Rome , Papists ? &c. What a New Rom● under the English Protestant Government Strange Reflection ? Fourthly , And whether F. B's . thus contradicting the Government 's recognizing us ( by Law ) as Dissenting Protestants ( by his thus defaming us as New Rome , Rome's Sister , Papists Brethren , &c. ) be not Seditious in the Natu●● and Tendency thereof , as tending to stir 〈◊〉 Discord and Strise amongst Protestant Subjects , and consequently to weaken the Interest of King and People ? Let the Prudent and Impartial judge . Fifthly , F. B's . rendring our Declaration to the King and Parliament , ( for the Divine Authority of the Holy Scripture , as inserted in the Act of Exemption ) Deceitful on our part , and to serve a turn , in his New Rome Arraign'd , p. 40 , 42. This is to go about to invalidate and destroy a principal Condition of our present Liberty : And is not this to Confront and Oppose the Governments acceptance of our said Declaration . All which , with many more misrepresentations and Calumnies against us in F. Bugg's Pamphlets , greatly bespeak his Deadly Malice , Revengeful and Unchristian Spirit , which we hope no Rational , Impartial or moderate Man , will Countenance or Encourage . To be sure such malicious Treatment , must needs be odious to all true Christians , and Merciful Men. And seeing I could not with all my late and earnest Endeavours , obtain a Meeting for a free and fair Debate with Fra. Bugg , ( when lately in London ) about the Controversie he has begun and published between us . I acquainted his Two Ministers ( viz. William Smithies of Cripplegate Parish , London , and Isaac Archer of Milden-hall in Suffolk , where he lives , ) with these ( and other ) his Abuses and Misrepresentations aforesaid against us , to try if they would put a stop to his farther proceeding therein ; shewing them by Letters wherein his Abuse and Calumnies against us , would affect them , ( he having the Reputation of a Convert , and his writing against us , approbation among some of the Clergy , by his own Confession . ) But his last Pamphlet being in the Press before my Letters to them , I suppose they had not opportunity to prevent or stop that . However it will concern them for the future , to stop his Malicious Attempts , otherwise I am perswaded his work will not be to their Credit or Reputation : But the more to the contrary , if they do not stop , and lay him aside , and provide better Tools to work withal , if minded fairly to Controvert Matters with us , or otherwise to let us live quietly , and on all hands to endeavour for Charity one towards another as much as we can . And seeing F. B. has presumed to dedicate his last Pamphlet , stiled Quakerism Withering , to the Bishop of Glocester , falsly charging the Teachers of the Quakers therein with Damnable Heresies , even Denying the Lord that bought them . And yet as one both uncertain and doubtful in his evil Attempts against us , proposes this Offer and Submission to the said Bishop in these Words , viz. I therefore do most humbly offer what I have wrote to your Lordship's perusal , and shall most willingly submit to your Censure , the Matters therein contained . And if for want of Judgment in the Matters controverted , I have wronged the Quakers , I shall most willingly retract and make them publick reparation . Hereupon , I and another Friend , i. e. Samuel Waldenfield , lately took occasion to repair to the said Bishop of Glocester , ( having the reputation of a moderate Person , ) and shewed him Fr. Bugg's said Pamphlet and Epistle dedicated to him , and this very Passage of his Submission , as not knowing but he had delivered it first in Manuscript to the Bishop , for his Perusal and Correction : Which when I enquired of him about , the Bishop answered , he had never seen it before , nor knew the Man. Whereupon I shewed him how preposterous it was for F. B. to expose his said Pamphlet in Print to general Judgment , before he had the Bishops Judgment about it , and how inconsistent with his said offer of his Book to his Perusal , and submitting to his Censure the Matters therein . How insincere F. B. was herein is obvious . It seems he was resolved to traduce and asperse the Quakers in Print first , that the Bishop might not have the opportunity to prevent him therein : Though for a Pretext and Colour , he Complements the Bishop with his Conditional Submission to his Censure and Judgment , whether he had wronged the Quakers or not . Did not this tend to make the World believe he had the Bishops Privity or Approbation therein , or otherwise , that he would not have div●lged what he had writ , because offered to the Bishops Perusal and Censure ? who knew nothing of it until 't was gone out into the World. What a Mockery and plain Abuse was this , ( tending to make the Bishop suspected of giving Countenance thereto . ) To whom we shewed also Bugg's other Book against us , stiled New Rome Arraign . with his Mock Trial and Condemnation of Perjury and Pillory against us , and the Occasion thereof ; which Calumnies the Bishop disowned , and could not allow of such Treatment . And I thought meet to give this hint thereof , to do the Bishop so much Justice , that he might not lye under the suspition of giving Countenance to this our Implacable Adversary , in these his Calumnies and bitter Invectives against us . As I did in the Postscript of my late Answer , Innocency Triumphant . For Henry Goldwell , Justice of Peace , and late Member of Parliament , to whom F. B. dedicated his other Scandalous Book , ( stiled New Rome Arraigned ) without his Privity or Knowledge ( as he confessed ) and for which he also told some of us , he severely advertised F. Bugg , when he saw it in Print ( with his Mock-Trial , Perjury and Pillory against us ) being sensible it was a Reflection on his Reputation , to be rendred or suspected as the Patroniser or Countenancer of such Scandalous Pamphlets . And 't is to be much more hoped , that the said Bishop will advertise F. B. for endeavouring to shelter himself under his Countenance or Reputation . [ In point of Civility , I thought meet to shew the said Bishop of Glocester , this foregoing Passage , ( relating to him about F. b's . Dedication ) in Manuscript , before 't was printed , because I had such occasion to make use of his Name in Print , that he might not be offended ; which he was not , but took it well from us : Samuel Waldenfield being then also present with me . ] However , whatever we suffer , there is a just and all-seeing God , that will judge righteously , do rightly , and finally determine the Controversie between the Two Seeds , the Righteous and the Wicked . To Him the Righteous Judge of all , we commit our Innocent Cause . Friendly Reader , my Concern in this Controversie , is designed only to vindicate Truth according to my understanding thereof , and to do particular Persons wronged , so much right ( as to their Principle ) as by referring to their own Explications ; for where either their Words are perverted , or seem dubious in the manner of Expressions , their own more full and clear Demonstrations ought to be taken notice of , in point of Justice to them . And where the whole Body or People called Quakers , are wrongfully charged about their Principles from particular Persons , 't is an absurd way of arguing , whether it be from any one 's defective or dubious manner of Expressions , ( or our Adversaries own perversions and misrepresentations . ) And in that case , to manifest Truth , and to do the said People right as to their Principles , &c. I find it the plainest way to have recourse to their Concurrent Testimonies and Harmonies of their Writers and Books , to evince the truth of their Principles to others . And this Method which I do sincerely observe all Religious and Christian Societies will allow of , and not condemn a whole Body of Sober Religious People , or Christian Society , for any particular shortness in manner of Expressions ; for that were very partial and unjust . And I doubt not but the Lord our God will stop the Mouth of Iniquity that 's open against us , and clear our Innocency more and more , that his Truth may prevail over Deceit and Envy , and the Upright in Heart shall see it , and rejoyce in the Lord , and in the prosperity of his blessed Truth , over his and their Enemies . From a Servant of Christ George Whitehead . London , the 3d. of the 2d . Month , 1694 , Reader , Note , That the omission of the Names of our present Opposers in the Title is , 1. Because of the Contempt brought upon them by their great Envy and outrage . 2. Lest their Names in the Title , should cause some to refuse inspecting this Treatise . In opposition to the great Abuses , Misrepresentations of F. Bugg , and his Advocate Tho. Crisp against us , the following Testimony ( which was lately delivered to the Parliament ) is added . WE whose Names are underwritten ( being in Christian Society with the People commonly called QUAKERS , ) Do in good Conscience Declare and Certifie all Persons concerned . 1. That we sincerely believe and Confess , That Jesus of Nazareth , who was born of the Virgin Mary , is the true Messiah , the very Christ , the Son of the Living God , to whom all his Prophets gave Witness . And we do highly value his Death , Sufferings , Works , Offices , and Merits for the Redemption and Salvation of Mankind , together with his Laws , Doctrine and Ministry . 2. That this very Christ of God , was and is the Lamb of God that takes away the Sins of the World , who was slain , was dead , and is alive , and lives for evermore , in his divine eternal Glory , Dominion and Power with the ●ather . 3. That the HOLY Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are of divine Authority , as being given by Inspiration from God. 4. And that Magistracy or Civil Government is God's Ordinance , the good ends thereof being for the Punishment of Evil-doers , and Praise of them that do well . And we know of no other Doctrine or Principle preached , maintained , or ever received among ( or by ) us since we were a People , contrary to these before mentioned . Signed in Behalf of the said People , Thomas Lower , William Crouch , William Ingram , William Meade , William Macket , Philip Ford , Francis Camfield , John Edge , Thomas Hutson , Charles Marshall , Josiah Ellis , Gilbert Latey , Theodor Eccleston , Joseph Wassey , Thomas Cox , John Bowater , Benjamin Antrobus , William Philips , Edward Brook , William Townsend , John Hall , George Oldner , Thomas Barker , Abraham Johnson , Tho. Twinbarrow , Michael Russel , John Harwood , John Danson , John Stringfellow ; William Paul , Fra. Etteridge , Benj. Bealing . THE Counterfeit Convert , A SCANDAL TO CHRISTIANITY . TO introduce the ensuing Reflections on F. Bugg's said Pamphlet , I think it expedient to give a brief Account of our late sincere and earnest Endeavours for a Meeting with him in London , fairly to debate the principal Matters in Controversie between him and the People called Quakers ; in order whereunto , in our printed Sheet , Entituled The Quakers Vindication against Fra. Bugg's Calumnies : The following Offer and Proposal was made , viz. And further seeing Fra. Bugg has shewn his Hatred and Revenge against George Whitehead , especially for discovering his Self-Condemnation and Malice , &c. I ( the Person concerned ) freely offer , and am willing ( with with the Lord's Asistance ) to make it plainly appear , before any Six , Ten or Twelve Competent Witnesses , who are moderate Men of Sense and common Reason , that Fr. Bugg has grossly and wickedly abused and perverted Truth , and wronged the People called Quakers , both in Charge Citation and Observation in his said Pamphlet ( which he delivered to the Parliament . ) And that in his Book New Rome Arigned , he has forged notorious Lies in other Mens Names to ridicule , defame and scandalize divers Citizens of London , and men of good Repute , condemning them also to the Pillory as Perjured Persons , in his pretended Tryal in a way of Judicature , unwarantably acted by himself , assuming the Place of both Judge , Accuser , Jury , Condemner and Executioner , with a form of a Pillory , and Effig●es in●● , to represent the persons so grosly scandalized by him : I say , for these Ends , I do profer , ( God willing ) to meet Fr. Bugg before Witnesses , at any convenient Time and Place , within the City of London , that the Persons so defamed by him , may be present . To which Proposal I subscribe — Gearge Whit●head . Hereunto Fr. Bugg gives an answer , with a new Charge , with Six Articles against the Quakers , and Six against George Whitehead , dated Jan. 29th , 1693 ; and he has printed what he saith is the substance of his said Answer , p. 5 , but he has left out of his printed , what really is the substance thereof , in the very beginning of it , namely , his acceptance of my printed Challenge , being in Writing thus , viz. George Whitehead . In answer to your faint Challenge , in your pretended Vindication to meet me in any place in London , the following Words he leaves out , viz. [ I do accept thereof , and am come to London , being Sixty Miles to meet you . ] Observe here , how plainly and positively this his acceptance seems to be of my said Challenge , but how insincere evasive and shifting he was therein , his following indirect Terms shews insisting upon the Choice of Eight moderate Ministers , giving me my Choice whether to chose the whole number out of the Episcopalians , Presbyterians , Independants or Baptists , or whether each of us one out of each . And what was his intent in proposing such a Choice ? It was that the difference might be referred to such Ministers for them to Judge and Determine ; as he confessed at Jacob Franklings , the First of the twelfth Month , 1693 , in the Evening before several Witnesses . I shewed how unreasonable it was for me to give away Matters of Faith and Conscience , to such Persons of different Perswasion ; and how besides the terms of my Challenge for the Persons present to be Witnesses only of what passed , i. e. as to matter of Fact , and not to refer matters of Faith and Conscience to their Determination ; asking Bugg if he would refer all the Matters in Difference to Anabaptist Ministers ? ( whereof Sprinkling Infants was one , as he well knew , ) He answered , he would ; as indeed his own Proposal would have obliged him , if I had chosen the whole number of Anabaptist Ministers . By this those of the Church of England Clergy , who have encouraged Fr Bugg in his Scribling against the Quakers , may see what a Convert he is , and how litle of Religion or Stability he is come to , in his offering to refer Matters thereof to the Judgment of Presbyterian , Independant , or Anabaptists Ministers , whereby he had been liable to turn Presbyterian , Independant or Anabaptist . However , since Fr. Bugg so plainly had writ that he accepted of my Challenge , and came to London Sixty Miles to meet me , I closely pursued him by Letters , thereupon sending one Letter after another for some time , day by day , for a Meeting with him fairly to dispute Matters ; and seeing him Dillatory , and protracting Time by his various Terms he had to make one after another , I appointed several Meetings on purpose , and gave him timely notice thereof , as many are Witnesses to Six several Letters of mine sent him . And this thou Fr. Bugg knowest in thy own Conscience to be true ; and therefore mayest thou not be ashamed of thy sorry shifting and evading both my Challenge and thy own Acceptance thereof ; and yet in thy own Contradiction art driven to confess in these Words ; viz. Thus far then we agreed as to matter of Debate ; I in my Sheet offered to produce every Book and Page quoted , before Ten or Twelve Impartial Men , and by G. W. offered to make it appear before any Six , Ten , or Twelve Moderate Men , that I had wronged them . So that nothing remained now , but my coming to London to joyn Issue with G. W , As in Page 3 , of thy last Pamphlet stiled Quakerism Withering But that Agreement thou made shift to evade by other Terms ; one while by urging for Ministers of divers Perswasions as before , to be Judges of the Matters in Controversie : Another while , for a pre-Engagement to a Conditional Retraction under Hand ; another while to leave the Matters in Controversie to the Decision of Disinterested Persons , ( as thy Letters shew . ) And not only so , but thou woulst have pre-ingaged our Friends , ( whom thou hast scandalized with thy Mock Tryal and Pillory , as Perjured Persons , to Retraction and Condemnation , if proved False Witnesses . Another while thou woulst accept against G. W's Twelve Witnesses being present at the Debate , unless when the Certificate came under Examination , or called in when any Matter depending thereupon , was under Consideration ; as by thy Letters to me , which was contrary to my printed Challenge accepted by thee . Thou knowest what Exceptions I made against the inequality of these thy dilatory evasive Terms , and against thy Arrogancy , in bringing thy self into Competition with a Body of People , refusing therein to make any such unequal Bargain with thee , to gratifie thy Ambition . Whereupon I queried , First , Do any of the Clergy engage either themselves or the whole Clergy , to stand or fall by Bugg in his Controversie against a whole People and their Ministers . Secondly , Will any one or Two of the Clergy , ( who are Men of Repute ) personate and vindicate Bugg against the Quakers , as in my Letter to him dated the Twelfth of the Twelfth Month , 1693. Now F , Bugg thou art still partial and unjust , in leaving out my Answers to thy Offers and Terms in thy said Printed Pamphlets thou hast left out . First , Thy accepting my Printed Challenge , and coming Sixty Miles to London to meet me . Secondly , My Proffer to leave thee to thy Liberty , to bring whom thou pleased of Members of Parliament , or Ministers for Witnesses . Thirdly , My Answers to thy Offers , with my Exceptions against the partiality of thy terms , why didst not print them ? Fourthly : My Offers and Appointments of Three sundry Meetings , and thy absenting from Two of them ; and thy flying of about Terms at another of them , ( i. e. ) at Josiah Ellis's , ) after thou hadst granted interchangably to discourse Articles . Fifthly , Thy granting a Meeting before disinterested Persons , without retraction , and my Acceptance by Letters , containing what follows , viz. Our demand of Satisfaction , and positive challenge made to thee thereupon , for a fair and moderate Dispute within the City of London , before either Three , or Four , or Six , or Eight or Ten Competent Witnesses , being Dis-interested Persons : And withal , giving thee liberty to bring Two , Three or Four Persons to be thy Advocates or Assistants in the Discourse , who are Men of Civility and Sense , that we might have opportunity to vindicate our Christian and Civil Reputations from thy great Abuse and Scandal , affecting both , by thy defaming us as Perjured Persons in thy pretended Tryal and Pillory , &c. in thy N. Rom. Arraign . And to clear the People called Quakers from thy Calumnies in thy printed Sheet delivered to the Parliament , as particularly that of Denying Jesus of Nazareth , &c. As more largely appears in our Letter to thee , dated the Nineteenth of the Twelfth Month , 1693. Pursuant to which , we then gave thee Notice , That we intended ( God willing ) to meet in the upper Room , at the Bull and Mouth Meeting-House , within Aldersga●e , London , on the 22d of the same Month , about the 9th Hour in the Morning where thou hadst notice to meet us . And where accordingly divers of us , whom thou hadst scandalized as aforesaid , did then and there meet together , with several moderate disinterested Persons for Witnesses ; and also then and there we waited for thee Two Hours , ( or above ) but thou camest not , as the Persons here named are Witnesses . Gilbert Latey , Theodor. Eccl●●ston , Richard Needham , James Parke , William Robinson , Samuel Waldenfield . John Butcher , John Vaughton , Benjamin Antrobus , and others . So that thy Evasion and timorous sculking to secure thy self from fair disquisition of Matters , was notorious , and thou wast as well told of it home , by my next Letter to thee , dated the 23d of the 12th Month , 1693. And how apparent therein didst thou act ▪ contrary to thy own pretence of accepting my Challenge , and coming Sixty Miles to London , and wa●ing near Three Weeks for a Meeting with me . All thy slim Shifts , Boasting , Railing and Scandalizing us , will not cover thy Shame , Guilt and Cowardice which thou hast unjustly charged us withal , until 't is directly fallen upon thy self ; though thou falsly turnest the Story of the Pursuit against me , viz. But still I pursued him , ( sayst thou , p. 7. ) as if I had fled , when thou knowest the contrary how frequently I followed thee with Letters pursuant to my printed Challenge in the Quakers Vindication , seeing thou hadst accepted thereof ( in pretence . ) And therefore thy implying G. W. to have shuffled and evaded a fair Debate , p. 9. is notoriously false , as many can testifie , but true upon thy self : And as false is thy following Reflection ; viz. That G. W. promised in Print ; ( and what ? ) to leave the Matter to any moderate Men. What I offered in Print is obvious ; 't was for Moderate Men to be Witnesses , as in the said Q. Vind. but not to leave the Matters in Controversie to them as Judges to detetmine . Wherefore I was not free to pre-ingage to leave or refer Matters of Faith and Conscience to the judgment and determination of Persons of other Perswasions ; thereby to betray my Christian Liberty , and come under an Implicite Faith , which my Adversaries Terms would have imposed upon me ; though as I told him , I left others Judgments free , as I would have mine , without being preingaged or imposed upon . This was the general Reason of my not obliging my self to his Terms of others Decision . On our deeming thee F. B. a Self-condemned Apostate , p. ●0 . Thou questions , Is not 〈◊〉 throwing Dirt in the Face of the Government , r●●dring their Religion so false and erroneous , as 〈◊〉 whoever forsake you , and conform to the Established Religion , must therefore be Self-Condemned Apostates ? As if the Government and Establishe● Religion , must patronize and excuse all 〈◊〉 Uncharitableness , Malicious Attempts , Errors Lies , Calumnies and Enormities , under preten●● of thy conforming thereunto . But here th●● art out egregiously , thy Self-Condemnatio● and Temporising , is made obvious from t●● own Confession , to the tru●● of our Doctrine , Ministry , Society , Christian Love , and our Meeting as Blessed of God , even with the comfortable Enjoyment of his Presence , as in thy Quak. De●●c● since thy Conformity . Therefore thou argu● falaciously as well as maliciously , to render 〈◊〉 deeming thee a Self-Condemned Apostate , 〈◊〉 th●o●ing Dirt in the face of the Government , &c. This will not cover nor excuse thee before th● Great Judge of all ; thy Excuse herein being both irreligious and uncertain . And thenc● 't is apparent thou didst not in 1686 , accoun● the Quakers Criminal in point of Doctrine , seeing thou wast Confirmed , their Doctrine and Ministry was a dispensation of the Love of God sent 〈◊〉 a Visitation to Mankind as in thy said Qr. Detect . which many of the Conformists were never so Perswaded nor Confirmed , neither ever turned to be such Malicious , Inveterate Enemies and Persecutors as thou art . Therefore Self-Condemned Apostacy , cannot be so justly charged upon them as upon thee . Thy turning thy Testimony for the Quakers Doctrine and Ministry , as by thee given in 1686 , unto what thou thought of them in 58 and 60 , is a most base and false Prevarication , as well as contrary to the plain Grammatical import of thy own Testimony given in 1686 , ( Two Years after thy leaving us , and conforming to the Church of England , ) which thou confirmest in these positive Expressions , as thy then present Sense , viz. And in this Manner we went on for many Years , and loved one another with Love unfeigned . And doubtless God blessed our Meetings with the comfortable Enjoyment of his Presence . Thus thou in 1686 : How canst thou in Conscience alter and turn this to what thou thought of us in 58 and 60 ? Oh Hardned Man , and injuririous to thy own Conscience ; awake , awake to judgment ! Thy consequence also is very inconsequent and false , That by our Doctrine , Pious Sincere Christians are rendred Apostates for acknowledging themselves mistaken ( upon Conviction ) in that they once thought the Popish Doctrine true , &c. Quak. Wither , p. 12. For the First , Thou art no such Pious sincere Christian as left us , and conformed upon any such Conviction . Secondly , Thou wast not convicted that our Doctrine and Ministry were false or erroneous , when thou left us , nor when after thy Conformity thou confess'd it was a Dispensation of the love of God , and God blessed our Meetings , &c. Thy First Charge against the Quakers is , That they deny Jesus of Nazareth , who was born of the blessed Virgin Mary to be Christ , and the efficient Cause of Mans Salvation . Here are Two Charges made one , both which we positively and sincerely deny , as contrary to our profest and known Principles . The Scripture Texts * proving Jesus to be the Christ , &c. p. 14 , 15 , 16. we ever have and do sincerely believe and own . But that the Quakers ●●ach the contrary , ( as B●●gg ●aith ) we utterly deny , as a gross Calumny imposed upon us . His instance fo●…roof of from Isaac Pennington's Question to ●…ssors , wherein he distinguishes between Christ and the Body in which he came , and between the outward Vessel and the Inward Life , and not calling the Bodily Garment Christ , &c. i. e ▪ chiefly and in the first place Christ , as I. P. explains himself , is no Proof that the Quakers deny Jesus to be Christ , for he did not consist only of an outward Body or Vessel , he had both inward Life , Soul and Spirit , even as perfect Man , much more as God. And therefore Fr. Bugg's inference , that the Quakers would divide the Humanity from the Godhead is false ; they are distinguished but not divided in the entire Being of Christ ▪ as also that they can never call him Christ but a Vail , is falsly infinuated ; though his Flesh was called the Vail , Heb. 10. 20. This Objection has been plainly answered as well as the Question : Doth not the Name Christ belong to the whole Body , &c. In our Charitable Essay , p. 4. which Fr. Bugg gives the go by to , without Replication , running the rounds to his old Objection , Idem per Idem , imposing and begging the Question ; he will neither see , nor take Answers , how plainly soever given , thus impertinent and trifling he is . But to clear Isaac Pennington in this Point , he did not deny Jesus of Nazareth to be Christ , but sincerely confesseth to the same Jesus Christ in his Works , 2nd Part , p. 18. in these Words , viz. The Enemy hath raised up Jealousies and Prejudices against us , as if we denied the Scriptures and Ordinances of God , and that Christ that died at Jerusalem ; against which Isaac P. Answers , viz. First , That we do really in our Hearts own that Christ who came in the fulness of time in that prepared Body to do the Father's Will , ( His coming into the World , Doctrine , Miracles , Sufferings , Death , Resurrection , &c. in plainness and simplicity of Heart , according as it is exprest in the Letters of the Scripture . Secondly , That we own no other Christ than that , nor hold sorth no other thing for Christ but him , who then appeared and was made manifest in the Flesh. And p. 19. ibid. The Lord hath shewn me in Spirit , that they themselves are guilty of that very charge , ( and that he will so implead them at his Judgment Seat ) which they cast upon us , even of denying that Christ which died at Jerusalem to be Christ. Thus far Isaac Pennington . What more plain and innocent Testimony could Man have given ? Where 's now either his or the Quakers denial of Jesus of Nazareth to be Christ , as F. Bugg has over and over unjustly charged us . Another Instance out of the Christian Quaker , is that the holy Body , ( i. e. of Christ , ) was not instrumentally , without a share of the general Victory , and holy Priviledges obtained ; yet that the efficient and chiefest Cause was the Light and Life , p. 18. This is so far from either denying Jesus to be Christ , or the efficient Cause of Salvation , that it is a plain Confession that Jesus Christ was both the instrumental , and the efficient cause of Man's Salvation ; Instrumental in his Holy Body , and Efficient by his Light and Life : Seeing we preach no other Light or Life to effect Salvation , but that of Jesus Christ. And we know of no true Understanding Christians , but will confess that it was not the Humanity or Manhood of Christ only that effects or works Man 's Salvatian , without the Divinity , seeing as Man , he saith , I can of my Self do nothing ; as I hear I judge , John 5. 30. Wherefore Fr. Bugg's Inference that they , ( i. e. ) the Quakars , ) have robbed the blessed Jesus of one of his eminent Attributes , ( viz. of being the efficient Cause of Man's Salvation , ) is notoriously false and impertinent like the rest , ( Jesus Christ is a compleat Saviour . ) As also is F. B's other , That they insinuate by consequence that Him that was born of the Virgin , He is no otherwise a Saviour , than other good Men are , p. 21. Which he has flatly contradicted by his Instance immediately following , viz. If some Men in Scriptures are entituled Saviours , because of their Contribution of their Trials , Travels and Labours towards the Salvation of Mankind ; of much more right is that honour ascribed to Him who had the Spirit without Measure , &c. p. 21. Whereby its apparent , that much more Honour of a Saviour is ascribed to Christ , than to any other Men. Thus notorious is Bugg in his Contradiction to himself , most unjustly to prove his Lying Charge of their Denying Jesus to be the Christ , and the efficient Cause of Man's Salvation . Oh Horrible Insolency , and Self-Condemned Apostacy ! Now Fr. Bugg , I query of thee , 1. Didst thou , when a Quaker , deny Jesus to be the Christ. 2. Didst thou when a Quaker , deny Jesus to be the efficient cause of Man's Salvation ? 3. Didst thou when a Quaker , ever hear the Quakers deny Jesus to be the Christ in their Ministry . 4. Didst thou when a Quaker ever hear the Quakers Deny Christ to be the efficient Cause of Man's Salvation ? 5. Nay , didst thou deny Jesus to be the Christ , or the efficient Cause of Man's Salvation , when in the Name of the People called Quakers , thou confessedst , That in the beginning the inshining Light of Christ Jesus by his Heavenly Spiritual Appearance in the Hearts and Souls of his People , was our Principle , the very Foundation , Principle and Corner Stone of our Building ? See his De Christ. Lib. 2d Part , p. 24. 6. Didst thou deny Jesus Christ to be the efficient Cause of Man's Salvation , in thy confessing to this inshining Light of Christ Jesus , as the more sure word of Prophesie ; and that there was sufficiency in it , ( being obeyed ) to lead to Salvation ? Or in thy confessing to the vertue and excellency of this holy Unction , and to this word nigh in the Heart ; and to Christ Jesus the Second Adam , as he is a quickening Spirit , even to Christ within ; and thus People must wait to know him , except they were Reproba●es ? ibid. p. 25 , 26 , 27. 7. Didst thou by these Confessions , deny Jesus of Nazareth , who was born of the Virgin Mary , to be the efficient Cause of Man's Salvation ? 8. What notorious and gross Contradiction to thy self is it then for thee , to make ascribing the Salvation chiefly to the holy Light of Life in Christ , and unto his Body instrumentally , to be a denial of his being the efficient cause of Man's Salvation , Qu. Wither . p. 22. Seeing that Light of Life was the Light and Life of the same Jesus Christ. And I think it is a real owning Jesus Christ , who was born of the Virgin Mary , to be the efficient Cause of Man's Salvation , to confess that to his own holy Divine Light of Life , Salvation is chiefly ascribed ; but Instrumentally to his Body . And hath not the Apostle Paul the like Distinction , where he confesseth we were reconciled to God by the Death of his Son ; much more being reconciled , we shall be saved by his Life ? Rom. 5. 10. Here 's Reconciliation by his Death , and much more Salvation by his Life . Wherefore F. Bugg's Consequence against us , as bringing in Damnable Heresies , Denying the Lord Jesus Christ to be a compleat Saviour , p. 23. is a most foul and absurd Slander . His instance in p. 23 , that the Serpent is a Spirit , and therefore that promised Seed which bruiseth his Head , must be Spiritual : And that Seed is Christ. To which I add consequently , not only the outward Body or Flesh which he took upon him . I cannot understand how this can be a Denial , that Jesus Christ himself is the efficient Cause of Man's Salvation , unless F. Bugg doth think that Christ was made up only of that outward Body of Flesh , without any Divine Principle of Light and Life in him ; which I suppose he will not attempt to own or prove . For though Christ took upon him the Seed of Abraham according to the Flesh , and was the Seed of the Woman that bruises the Serpents Head , even the promised Seed , who through Death was to bruise under , and destroy him that had the power of Death , viz. The Devil , yet he effectually doth it by his Divine Power , Light and Life , as the immediate and efficient Cause of Man's Salvation : Wherein we still confess his Sufferings and Death in the Flesh Instrumentally to Contribute thereunto . Christ Jesus as the promised Seed , who came of a Woman made under the Law , bruised the Serpent's Head , both without us and within us ; without us , through his Sufferings and Death , ( by his Divine Testimony , Word and Power ; within us , by his Divine Life , Light , Word , ( or Seed , ) Spirit and Power , which is all but one Christ himself , not Two Christs , nor to be divided . Else how could we be born again of incorruptible Seed ? Or how doth that Seed remain in him that 's born again ? And is not that Seed Christ ? And is not the Word of Faith , Christ in Spirit ? 'T is well that F. B. grants the head of the Serpent in Men shall be bruised . Consequently this must be for their Salvation . And Christ therefore as inwardly revealed by ●is Spirit and Power the efficient Cause there of . Divers other absurd Consequences he draws upon us in this case not worth tracing . His other Instances to prove his false Charge of the Quakers denying Jesus to be Christ , and efficient Cause of Man's Salvation , are most grosly applied and perverted , as ( he saith ) by G. Fox's assuming Divine Attributes to himself , p. 26 , 27. Which we must needs look upon to be a reiterated aspersion . For where G. F. uses these Words , I am the Light , him by whom the World was made , and doth enlighten every Man that comes into the World , &c. This he speaks in the Name of Christ , and not of himself ; nor in his own Name , as his following Words plainly shews , viz. If you love the Light wherewith you are enlightened , you will love Christ , who saith Learn of me . Now F. B. Dost thou in Conscience believe that G. F. assumes this to himself , or that he himself made the World ? Or that he himself enlightens every Man ? 'T is very sad to see thee so hardened and wilfully perverse in thus perverting truth . Thou knowest better , and sins against knowledge in thy Calumnies against us . F. Bug's Second Charge against the Quakers , Their Books are Blasphemous , and their practice Idolatrous , &c. This we utterly deny as a Calumnious Clam●u● against our Books and practice in general : And therefore the more impossible for Fr. Bugg rationally to produce the Colour of proof thereof . Wherefore I question him about his pretended Allegations . 1. What Blasphemy or Idolatry was it for any of our Friends to write , viz. Thou , O North of England , out of thee did the Branch spring , and Star arise , which gives Light to all the Regions round about ; in thee the Sun of Righteousness appeared ? &c. 2. How proves F. Bugg that Fox's Disciples or Proselites , ( as he scornfully calls them , ) ecchoed back these Adorations to him ; as calling him the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness ? Alluding to Mic. 5. 2. Numb . 24. 17. Mal. 4. 2. Zech. 3. 8. p. 31. I challenge Bugg to prove where the Quakers gave these Titles to the Person of George Fox , or that he assumed them to himself ? Observe . I have viewed over that Epistle of Edward Burrough's , to the Camp of the Lord in England , p. 64 , 65 , 66 , 67 , where mention is made of the North of England , and where the Branch did spring , and the Star arise , and the Sun of Righteousness appeared , &c. And G. F. is not so much as mentioned , or named in all that Epistle ; and therefore Bugg has most shamefully belied and scandalized the Quakers in this point also ; not only in charging them , that the Quakers Prophets give Witness to G. Fox , instead of Christ ; that they call him the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness , and put the North of England for the Town of Bethlehem ▪ ( N. Rom. unm . Epist. to Ber. p. 2. ) But also , because of our Testimony against this Horrid Lye and Abuse ; among others , Bugg staged Twelve of us , ( being Citizens , Tradesmen and others of good Repute , ) in his Mock Tryal , wherein he condemns us for Perjured Persons to the Pillory , with a form thereof , ( in his N. Rom. Arraign . ) to redicule and most grosly defame us , both as to our Christian and Civil Reputations affected thereby . Oh , horrible Insolency and Wickedness in thee F. Bugg ! Thus wilfully to persist in thy Imposing gross Lies and Calumnies upon the World against us ! 3. What Divine Attributes did G. F. assume to himself , in saying he wrote from the Mouth of the Lord , or that he was cloathed with Righteousness ? p. 30. 5. How proves Bugg , that to be a true and entire Copy of John Audland's Letter to G. F. which he cites , p. 30 ? I deny his Citation ; and there 's reason to question the truth of it , being also so often varied in Print ; and particularly from the Copy sent me by John Pennyman ; besides the Date of 1665 given it , in the printed Libel , entituled , Some of the Quakers Principles , &c. gives more Cause to question the Truth of his Copy : For that Date was Two Years after John Audland Died , being in 1663 , ( 't is great Nonsense to suppose he writ it after he Died , ) as appears by their Register of Burials in Westmorland . And thou F. B. hast owned the said Libel and the composing of it , in thy N. Rom. Arr. p. 10. And didst thou find the Date of 1665 , on the said Letters ; or didst thou give it , or who did ? Answer truly . We may not be imposed upon by thy various uncertain Accounts or Equivocations in this Matter . 5. Which of you have the Original Letter of J. A's ? And which of you are able to make it appear , by comparing of Ha●ds to be his , ( as printed by thee ) as thou sayest ? p. 32. Which of you are so expert in his Hand , that you can make it so appear ex certa scientia ? I greatly question it . I am sure that John Audland believed in , ( and confessed ) the true Christ of God , according to Scripture , as is fully proved in his Works , cited in my Just Enquiry , ( p. 26 , 27 , 28 , 29. ) and that he esteemed G. F. no otherwise than eminently Instrumental in Christ , for his own and others help and comfort . 6. What Blasphemy and Idolatry canst thou prove against W. P. and others , in their Book Judas and Jews , and in excusing Josiah Coa's Letter ? Thy proofless Clamours will not do , to bear us down , nor thy hideous out-cry and clamour , that never greater Blasphemies were spoke by Man , than by Fox . For shame leave these thy Malicious Calumnies . 7. What Blasphemy and Idolatry provest thou against John Blackling's Testimony , that G. F. was blessed with honour above above many Brethren ? Were there not Elders worthy of double Honour ? And is not that Honour Eternal , which God gives , and is from above , and wherewith he Honours them , that Honour him ? 8. And that his Life Reigns , ( i. e. the Life that G. F. partook of , ) Is not Christ the Life of all his true Believers and Followers ? 9. His tender Words in the Lords Love were my S●●●'s Nourishment . If these were J. B's Words , what Blasphemy or Idolatry was in them ; as believing G. F. Instrumental in the Lord's Love for his Souls Comfort ? Did not Paul say , I have fed thee with Milk , and not with strong Meat ? 1 Cor. 3. 2. And did not Christ's Ministers comfort the otints who were in Trouble , by the Comfort where with they themselves were comforted of God ? 2 Cor. 1. 4. Were these Blasphemous or Idolatrous , supposest thou , F. Bugg ? Oh , how filthy , Loud and Clamourous art thou in thy Charges , and how poor , faint , dull and short in thy proof ! Fr. Bugg's Third Charge against the Quakers . That they deny the Scriptures , by speaking contemptously of them , &c. Their Contemptuous Expressions of the Holy Scripture , their contempt of the Holy Scriptures , p. 32 , 33. We utterly deny these his Charges , as both Calumnious , and directly contrary to our Principles . His Allegations are fully answered in these our Three Treatises , viz. A Charitable Essay ; A Just Enquiry , and Innocency Triumph●nt . But he is so tenacious to his own Opinion , and so Implacable , that he 'll receive no Answer ; but repeat and impose his old worn , Reproachful Stuff , over and over again . I am sure our Friends Books alledged by him , if impartially viewed , will clear them in this Case , from either Denying or Contemning the Holy Scriptures . And even that of News coming out of the North , so often objected , doth in divers parts of it clear the point , both by the numerous Quotations of the Scripture in the Margents , as also where it s therein said , the Lord hath spoken by his former Prophets ; and what ? The Scripture . And p. 8 , Christ Jesus the Substance of the Prophets , Ibid. The Testimonies of the Prophets of God , and Apostles of Christ ( against false Prophets and the Works of the World , ) owned , And p. 12 , 13. The Scriptures and Saints Conditions , and the Words spoken by the Prophets , Christ and his Apostles , owned . And in Eternal Substantial Truths , p. 17. The Life and power of God gave forth the Scriptures , ( he saith . ) Now could this be any Contempt of Holy Scripture ? No , but the Contrary . And where do the Quakers say , that to preach out of them , ( i. e. the Holy Scriptures ) is Conjuration ? There may be true Preaching out of the Holy Scripture by the Spirit of Truth ; and there is false Preaching , by perverting the Holy Scriptures . Bugg's own instance which is against them that study to raise a Living thing out of the Dead ; to raise the Spirit out of the Letter , are Conjurers and Diviners , their teaching not being from the mouth of the Lord , p. 34. This is no proof of his general Charge ▪ that to preach out of the Holy Scriptures , is Conjuration . Quer. Where proves he these Words ? His Observation is also false , That the Quakers call the Holy Scriptures Death , Dust , and Serpents Meat . This is a foul perversion ▪ seeing they esteem the Holy Doctrine , to be the Holy Scripture ; which he also has granted and agreed to . And our distinguishing between the outward Writing or Books and the Holy Doctrine therein contained , and between the Letter and the Spirit , 2 Cor. 3. 6 , 7. This was no Juggle , nor any Contempt of Holy Scripture , as falsly suggested , p. 33 , 36. The Holy Scriptures mentioned amongst those Writings which I. P. did bring to the Exchange . And to this F. B. saith , Surely they could not burn the Holy Spirit ; and that it seems they can call the Bible the Holy Scriptures , for a Wicked Design , p. 36. This is impertinent , as well as Malicious ; for the Holy Scriptures therein mentioned , was with the respect to the Doctrine therein contained ; for I must tell F. B. that it would shew Contempt to Holy Scripture , even to the Holy Doctrine contained in the Bible , if a Person should voluntarily offer to burn the Bible it self , as the King of Judah did Jeremiah's Roll , Jer. 36. ( though he could not ●urn the Word of the Lord. ) But to say the Bible or Books made up of Paper and Characters will decay and turn to Dust , but the Holy Doctrine , Word and Spirit from whence it came , will endure : This is no Contempt of Holy Scripture ▪ nor yet to the Bible . His Saying G. W. holdly imposes upon the World , that though they call the Scripture Dust , &c. yet they do not call the Holy Scripture so . The first part he falsly imposeth upon me , as he doth on the Quakers . Not only that they call the Holy Scriptures Dust , Death , Serpents Meat , Beastly Ware , &c. which is a horrible Calumny , ) but also that they do not believe the Doctrine and Precepts recorded in Scripture , to be either Blessed or Holy , p. 38 , 39 Thus he imposeth his horrid and gross Lies ( against us ) upon the World ; as also that the Quakers never did beg Pardon of God for Christ's sake ; and that they do prefer their own Books , Papers and Epistles before the Scriptures , p. 40. These like the rest , are gross Lies , and contrary to our Testimonies extant in Print , as in divers of our Books we positively declare , That we prefer the Holy Scripture above all other Books extant in the World ; and also declare that we are truly thankful to God for preserving to us the outward Writings , Scriptures , or Books commonly called the Bible , as in Christ's Lambs defend . Epist. to the Reader , p. 7. The Christianity of the Quak. Vindic. In Answer to Dr. Ford , p. 13. And Charitable Ess●● , p. 5. And we do also frequently read the Scripture in our Families many of us , more than any other Books or Epistles whatsoever . To prove the Quakers Denial and Contempt of the ▪ Holy Scripture ; pursuant to this abominable Lye , Bugg saith , viz. And not knowing a better way to manifest them , I erected a mock Pillory , and tried them , and found them guilty on their own Premises , p. 33. The more Insolent , Impudent and Shameless thou F. Bugv , and the greater thy Shame and Wickedness : What , convict us of Error by wilful Lies and Forgery , and by notorious Scandal and Defamation ? As was thy mock Tryal , and mock Pillory , ( as well as thy mock Cage ; ) from whence we may justly return thy Calumnies against G. Whitehead , upon thy self , and can prove them against thy self : viz. That F. Bugg is First , A publick Defamer . Secondly , A wicked Forger . Thirdly , A wilful Lyar. Fourthly , A gross Perverter . Fifthly , A false Glosser . Sixthly , A Deceiver , i. e. of some Silly , Ignorant , Cr●dulous and Enviour Persons , not of any Impartial , Wise or Judicious . Oh horrible ! What a Christion , a Convert , a Church-man , an earnest Contender for the Christian Faith , ( as thou stiles thy self , ) and yet guilty of such horrid Forger● , Scandal and Slander as thy said mock Tryal is made up off . Good Lord deliver us all from such a People , and such a Ministry as own such a sinful Wretch , and Self-Condemned , Malicious Apostate as thou art , for a true Convert . Thy Charge of Denial and Contempt of Holy Scriptures , on the People called Quakers , is expresly contrary to what thou thy self hast positively declared in Print ; and that even in the Name and Person of the said People ; pleading for our Testimony to Christ within and the Kingdom of Heaven within , De Christ Lib. ch . 1. par . 2. This ( sayst thou ) , we told , this we proved to the People out of the Holy Scriptures ; and that although the Scriptures were good , and a true Declaration of those things which were most surely believed by the Apostles , and by us ought to be believed , yet not the only Rule , but still the Spirit of God , which was the first Principle , the Foundation Principle , &c. [ Thus far F. Bugg . ] Pray note , here 's F. Bugg , when a pretended Quaker , speaking truth herein , and clearing himself and the Quakers from being guilty of the least contempt of Holy Scripture ; but on the contrary , owning the same both as Holy and True , and to be most surely believed ; whereby both himself and the Quakers did then , ( i. e. in 1682 , ) own the Divine Authority of Holy Scripture by his own Confession . But F. Bugg , since a pretended Church-Man , tells the World gross Lies against the People called Quakers ; namely , That they deny and contemn the Holy Scripture : F. Bugg the Quaker spoke truth , but F. Bugg the pretended Church-Man and Convert , tells Notorious , Shameful Lies and Calumnies . T is an ill Bird that fouls its own Nests ; and One such Runagado , is worse than three Turks . His Reasons to prove that we do not believe the Doctrine and Precepts recorded in Scripture , to be either blessed or holy , are as false and impertinent as his Charge , and but a telling Lies , to prove Lies ; which therefore I thus oppose . 1. 'T is false that we cast Reproachful Language , and Contemptuous Expressions upon the Doctrine and Precepts recorded in Scripture . 2. Not reading them in our Meetings for Worship , is no Proof that either we have not the Spiritual and Living Worship of God among us ; nor any Evidence that we do not belihve the Doctrine and Precepts recorded in Scripture , to be blessed or holy : Our humbly Worshipping God in Spirit and Truth , is what 's required of us by Jesus Christ , and the Holy Scripture , which therefore is Testimony of our Belief that the Doctrine thereof is Holy. 3. 'T is false again , that we say ( without Distinction , ) to Preach out of them is Conjuration . I am confident these Words were never spoken by the Quakers thus general and positive , without any other Distinction or Exception about the Preachers and manner of Preaching . 4. These are notoriously false , that we lay aside a● useless the use of the Lord's Prayer , Ten Commandments , &c. Seeing by the Spirit of Christ , we Pray after that manner as he has taught , and practise the Substance of the Commandments , in that Love which is the fulfilling thereof . 5. We are not conscious to our selves of denying the Ordinances of Jesus Christ , either in not believing Sprinkling Infants to be of Divine Institution , or in not practising John's Baptism , which is that of Water , not mentioned in Go teach all Nations , Baptizing them , Mat. 28. And This do in remembrance of me , ( i. e. as oft as ye do it . ) But of how long continuance , and till what coming of Christ is the Question ? Though we believe this and all other Precepts both of God and Christ were holy under their several Dispensations , yet it follows not that we must reeds still practise every thidg that was holy , or else be condemned as not believing the Doctrine and Precepts of Scripture to be holy . F. Bugg will make no good Logick of such Arguments and Consequences ; for that were to bring us back to the divers Washings , Baptisms , Tythes , Offerings , Pussovers and Circumcisions , &c. under ehe Law ; which were all holy in their first Institution and Dedication . 6. 'T is also notoriously false , that we do prefer our own Books , Papers and Epistles before the Scriptures , ( i. e. the holy Scriptures , ) because some of them are occasionally read in some of our Meetings ; for both in our Ministry , Books and Epistles , People are often referred to the Holy Scriptures for proof , and excited to read them , and that they may understand , believe and live according to the same , by the Assistance of God's Holy Spirit . And therefore we esteem and prefer the Holy Scriptures before our own Writings , contrary to Bugg's false Aspersion upon the Quakers ; i. e. That they make void the holy Scripture by their Traditional Pamphlets . His gross Lies of this kind are numerous ; the Lord rebuke his Lying Spirit , and great Envy . F. Bugg's Fourth Charge against the Quakers . They deny the Ordinances of Jesus Christ , as Baptism and the Lord's Supper . We deny this Charge , as laid down without distinction ; and that for our Reason F. B. cites , viz. As for Baptism and the Lords Supper , Scripturally considered in their several Dispensations , in the Figure and Substance , we confess and own . To this F. B. presently answers , This is false as their Books declare , p. 45. What 's false ? He considers not he knows not what ? He answers very inadvertently , are not Baptism and the Lord's Supper , Scripturally considered , both as in the Figure and in the Substance , in the Type , and in the Antitype ? I never heard any true Convert Christian , or real Protestant say , this is false before . Was not John's Baptism with Water , a Figure of Christ's Baptism with the Spirit ? And of the Washing of Regeneration ? Which was greater ? And was not the outward Supper , Bread and Cup , in Commemoration of Christ's Death , a Figure also of his Inward Spiritual Supper , Eating and Drinking with him in his Kingdom ? Who said he , except ye eat my Flesh , and Drink my Blood , ye have no Life in you . Where then is the falshood in our confessing Baptism and the Lord's Supper , in the Figure and Substance ? F. B. quotes E. Burrough's Works , p. 51. The Bread and Wine is visible and carnal , a figure of a Spiritual thing . And what then ? are they Spiritual , or the Substance which is Christ ? That 's Popery , which the Martyrs opposed , who esteemed the outward Elements , the Bread and the Cup , figurative , or a Figure of the Body and Blood of Christ spiritually receivedly Faith. What great Error then can F. B. prove against us therein ? He farther cites E. B. in this point , as follows p. 45 , viz. For Christ never since he was sacrificed , brake the Bread , and drank the Cup with his Disciples , p. 581 , ( instead of 518. ) We do deny , and do say it is no Ordinance of God , neither was it ever commanded of him , or practised by the Saints , but is an Institution of the Whore of Rome , &c. This F. B. renders E. B. to say of the Bread and the Cup , ( being cited in the next antecedent Words , as here . ) Oh sad ! what a gross Perverter art thou F. B ? This has been often thy fallacious manner of Citation to abuse us ; as 't is plain , that which E. B. here says we deny , as never commanded of God , nor practised by the Saints , but ● Romish Institution was Sprinkling ( or Baptizing ) Infants ; calling it the Baptism into Faith , &c. as in E. B' s. p. 518 , ( before quoted , ) and not breaking of Bread , and drinking of the Cup ' as given by Christ unto his Disciples : E. B ▪ knew this was some time practised by Believers ' but not the other ; and it had been more ingenious for F. B. to have convicted him of Error about Sprinkling , than to mis-represent him . Though I grant E. B. in p. 518 , objects against their manner of breaking Bread , and drinking Wine among the Unconverted and Unregenerate , as not commanded of God , nor practised by his Saints . But does not call the breaking of Bread , and drinking Wine , a Popish Institution of Rome , as he does Sprinkling Infants , and their calling it the Baptism into the Faith. This point is answered in the Quakers Vindication , p. 2. col . 1. But F. B. is more expert in mis-representing , traducing and railing , than in rational Argument , or fair Disputation . As to our Exception against Sprinkling , and seeming thereby to allow of Dipping , p. 46. we except against the one as unscriptural , and allow of the other as once Scriptural in its proper Dispensation . F. Bugg's Fifth and Sixth Charge against the Quakers . That they undervalue the Death and Sufferings of Christ ; and exalt their own Sufferings above the Sufferings of Christ , above the Sufferings of the Apostles , above the Sufferings of the Martyrs , or any Christians since the Days of Christ , &c. We deny these Charges , as expresly contrary to our Principle , and publick known Testimonies , both highly valuing and exalting the Death and Sufferings of Christ above all other : His charging the Quakers to exalt their Sufferings above the Sufferings of Christ , imports as if they so lifted up , extolled , dignified or rendred their Sufferings more excellent than Christ's . This is a most gross Calumny cast upon the People called Quakers , and as expresly contrary to their Intention and Principle . Though F. B. takes advantage at some Words of E. B's , which he partially cites , adding the Words [ called Quakers , ] and as unfairly construes against the Quakers in general ; as where he saith , Q. Mary's Days brought not forth a Suffering more cruel , F. B. leaves out [ in many respects , ] which many respects , he explains to be about trivial Matters , as for not putting off the Hat , ( thee or thou to a Person ) and denying the circumstance of Swearing , and Hundreds suffering on Suspicion , when nothing could be charged against them ; and that this was contrary to Magna Charta . Thus E. B. reflects upon the Arbitrary Proceedings of those in power , in 1657. Though I cannot warrant all his comparative Expressions , but grant that the Passage objected against E. B. in this place , was not so well worded as intended according to his own Explication : For by greater and more cruel Suffering , I cannot think E. B. so senseless , as to intend in all Respects ; as that the People of God in our Age , have unde●gone greater and more cruel Sufferings than all the Primitive Sufferers , Apostles and Martyrs in the Ten Persecutions ; no sure , but in some respects wherein they did not suffer then , upon such small Pretences as many did in Cromwel's time , without any such pretext of Law , as the Jews pretended against Christ. However , tho' the Sufferings of the People of God among us , was far short of the Sufferings in the Apostles Days , and in the Ten Persecutions , &c. yet F. B. gives but a mean and partial Account thereof ; namely , of a few Imprisonments , and some small Distresses , &c. In the Twenty Five Years he was amongst the Quakers , he might have remembred also , the cruel Whippings , and tedious Imprisonments , close Confinements many of God's People have met withal here in Old England , together with cruel Beatings , Stockings , Stonings , &c. As also the sad Accounts from New England , of the cruel and barbarous Whippings , Cutting Ears , Hanging and putting to Death , divers of our Iunocent Friends there : I may not say , this was so cruel as the Sufferings in the Days of the Apostles , and Ten Persecutions , &c. But these being inflicted by Professors of Christianity in Old and New England ; it seemed more sinful and unjust in them , than in the Heathens , who pretended to no such Religion and Profession . One remarkable Passage of Fr. Bugg's , pursuant to the Fifth and Sixth Charge against the Quakers , I must needs take some notice of . In his Sheet to the Parliament , he puts a Query , viz. Whether was greatest , the Sufferings of the Quakers , or the Sufferings of Christ ? To which ( Bugg saith ) G. W. gave no direct Answer , but glossed it over , as his usual way is ; for if he had answered , that the Sufferings of the Quakers had been greatest , as their Doctors teach , ( a gross Lie by the way , ) the People would have been ready to Stone him for Blasphemy . Again , if he had said , the Sufferings of Christ had been the greatest , he had then given the Lye to E. B. So that he was in a great strait like the Pharisees of old their Predecessors . ( Thus far Bugg , ) p. 47 , 48. Now F. Bugg , I pray thee see , and I wish thy Ministers William Smi●hies , and Isaac Archer , may see what a notorious wilful Liar thou art , in this very point , in saying , G. W. gave no direct Answer to thy Question , but was in a great strait . To evince thy wilful Lie herein , do but review thy own Query , and G. W's . direct Answer therein , in the Quak. Vindic. p. 2. viz. To Bugg's Query 5. Whether was the Sufferings of Christ , or the Sufferings of the Quakers greatest ? 1. In the First place we answer , the Sufferings of Christ , in the nature of them , both inward and outward , in Agony of Soul , and Pains of Body , by that most cruel Death of the Cross , following that of Scourging and Crowning with Thorns . 2. It was most unjustly and wickedly inflicted by his Persecutors the Jews and Heathen ; yet worse'in the Jews , because they might have known better , and because they prosecuted him upon false Witness . And as Christ's Sufferings were most Cruel and Unjust , both as to the Nature thereof , and the Dignity of him that suffered , so he was a most acceptable Sacrifice , and sweet smelling Savour to God , and his Suffering and Sacrifice of Universal Advantage and Benefit to Mankind , in that he died for all Men , and and gave himself a Ransom for all , that all might be capable of Redemption and Salvation through him . Now pray observe , that G. W. gave a direct Answer to Bugg's Query , viz. Whether was the sufferings of Christ , or the sufferings of the Quakers greatest ? G. W. &c. answers directly , viz. 1. The Sufferings of Christ in the nature of them , &c. 2. Christ's Sufferings most exalted and esteemed , because of the Dignity of him that suffered . And this was obvious to Bugg's Eyes in Print , in our said Vindication ; and therefore then F. B. must needs be a notorious wilful Liar herein , in affirming G. W. gave no direct Answer to thy Query , but was in a great strait . And as to E. B's . intention and Principle , he exalted Christ's Sufferings in their worth , dignity and merit , above all other Men's , as appears by his own and many other Friends Testimonies ; highly valuing and exalting the Death and Sufferings of Christ. E. B's . Confession of Faith , in his Works , p. 252. Confesseth Christ Jesus as the High-Priest of God , the one Offering for Sin , who takes away Sin , and makes Intercession . And p. 441 , He also confesseth a being washed and cleansed from all Unrighteousness , by the Blood of Jesus , by which their Sins are remitted , who walk and abide in his Light , &c. ( He saith . ) See also a Book Entituled , The Son of Perdition Revealed , Printed 1661 , wherein Ed. Burroughs and G. Whitehead truly thus confess , p. 2 , 4. viz. As Thousands can witness , who have heard us both preach up , and contend for the free Grace of God to all Men ; and thereby ( i. e. by the Grace of God , ) Christ tasted Death for every Man , and died for all Men , and gave himself a Ransom for all , Heb. 2. 9. 1 Tim. 2. 6. 2 Cor. 5. 14. 1 Joh. 2. 2. And it s also testified , that in many more Books of ours , the free Grace of God , ( i. e. in Christ ) to all , and Christ's Dying for all Men , is declared . And p. 4. ibid. Reconciliation of the World hrough Christ's Death , and his being a Propitiation through Faith in his Blood , clearly confessed . [ Thus far E. B. and G. W. ] Thus highly have they exalted Christ's Sufferings for the Good of Mankind ; but thus have they not exalted their own , or any other Mens , or Peoples wha●ever . Therefore the Quakers exalt Christ's Sufferings above their own and all others ; consequently Bugg has greatly wrong'd the People called Quakers in this point , in his Fifth and and Sixth false Charge before cited . Some of Bugg's Railery and Lies added under the same Head against the Quakers , viz. Gross L●ars , Grand Impostors , Impudent Cheats . Yea , Ellwood , Richardson , and the most Learned among them . As they have shewed all the Contempt they can to Jesus of Nazareth , ( calling him a Vail , a Garment , &c. To the Scriptures , to the Ordinances and Ministers of Jesus of Nazareth ; with great Incharity , p. 56. Here F. B. thou hast lied to purpose , both against the Living and the Dead : I dare say Tho. Ellwood , and the Learned among us ( who are yet alive ) can testify against thee and the Devil too ; who is the Author of these thy Horrid Lies . And that their Preachers never lost Fifty Pounds , p. 57 , is another notorious Lie ; for I in particular , with many others , have lost many times more by Informers and Imprisonments . Whereas F. B. is offended at my calling him so often Bugg , p. 59 , 60 , calling me thereupon Insolent and Imperious George . What 's he then in calling me only Whitehead , and another Fox , and another Ellwood , and another Richardson ? Was this Pride , Insolency or Imperiousness in him ? If he says 't was for Brevities sake , so sa● I , for I have often mentioned his Name at ●engtr ; but sometimes F. B. for Brevities sake . He has also told me he would not go a step to meet such a proud imperious Fellow , as in his Letter to me Dated Feb. 16th , 1693. Pray what Humility has F. B. shewn herein ? And this is not all , but he thinks thereupon to debase me , by upbraiding me with my former Estate , saying , G. W. came amongst the Quakers , Anno 1652 , a poor Boy about Fifteen or Sixteen Years old , travelling on foot , and hath so gathered up his Crumbs , though chiefly at other Mens Tables , that he scorns to call him that fed him and his Friends at his Table by his proper Name , p. 60. Though he somewhat mistakes as to Time and Age , yet that Poverty I am not at all ashamed of ; it was for Christ's sake that I was made low and poor : I was no whit behind F. B. in Education , though I was made willing to walk on foot , and deeply to suffer by Imprisonment , ( as I did ) and many other ways even in my young Years , wherein the Lord was with me , as he still is ( I bless his Name . ) And as for being fed at F. B's . Table , I think 't was not very often , whether Three or Four Times I remember not ; and I suppose it was not without some Invitations by him to his House : Didst not thou F. B. invite me to thy House sometimes ? Surely it was not then intended to upbraid me in Print , with seeding at thy Table . Thou wast then more a Man , and of more Civility , 't is pity thy Conversion to the Priests and Levites should so much deprive thee both of Compassion , Natural Affection and Civility : However since 't is thy pleasure thus to upbraid me , I offer thee reasonable Satisfaction ; let me have a true Bill how oft I have fed at thy Table , and what each Meal of mine comes to , according to the usual Rates of Ordinaries , and I will pay it , or cause Payment to thee , ( God willing . ) To thy Six Charges against G. Whitehead . 1. A Publick Defamer . I deny thy Charge , ( the Terms thereof considered in the common and evil Sense , ) But why a Publick Defamer ? what because he writ that F. Bugg was turned Informer , a Self-Condemned Apostate ? &c. The latter is largely proved against thee in my several Answers ; as in Innocency against Envy . The contentious Apostate , &c. A Charitable Essay ; and Innocency Triumphant . And the first was also proved against thee in Judgment fixed , p. 225 , 226 , 227 , 228. By thy informing the Magistrate against us , in thy Book of Christian Liberty pretended , accusing us with Impositions , a new stamped Government , comparing our Yearly Meeting in 1675 , to the Popes Council of Jesuits and crafty Friars : And our Testimony then given concerning Mens and Womens Meetings , as if it had come from the Pope's Council , &c. upbraiding our Women's Meetings as an Idol of our own erecting , com●aring it to the Papists great Idol , viz. The Rood ● Grace , as in thy De Chris. lib. 2d Part , p. 32 , ●8 , 46 , 47 , Printed in 1682. But to be accounted an Informer , as afore , said , F. B. takes very hardly , being in the time 1682 , saying , he was one of the greatest Sufferer● by Informers in the whole Country . But F. B. was not thou about that time quarrelling with S ▪ Cater , about the Fifteen Pound Fine ? And pulling thy Neck out of the Collar , and winding thy self out of Sufferings ? And was it such a great Crime to render thee an Informer , seeing what thou then writ against our Yearly Meeting , tended to render us as obnoxious as the Papists , like the Popes Council ? &c. When 't is well known , that in those Days ; many of our Friends deeply suffered by Laws made against Popish Recusants , in Two Thirds of their Estates , and 20 l. per Month : Didst not tho● then deserve the Character of a Malicious Informer , in grosly aspersing us as aforesaid ? ● Wicked Man , is a Wicked Man , a Liar i● a Liar , a Forger is a Forger , a Persecutor is a Persecutor , and deserves his Characters . 2. A Wicked Forger . I deny thy Charge again ; Wherein a wicked Forger ? What for saying F. Bugg affirms in hi● Book de Chris. lib. part 2d , p. 83. That Conformity is a Monster , &c. And yet in about Two Years after , he himself turned about and conformed ? In answer to which , thou sayest , I am not the Author of one Word of that Page , bu● the whole Passage is a Query of John Ainsloe's beginning p 81 , and ending p. 87. But hold F. B. Jo. Ainsloe's Query begins not in p. 81 , but in p. 82 , and recited in p. 83 , for p. 81 , concludes with these Words , viz. I shall add one Query which J. A. put forth , to which I never heard that he had any Answer ; and were not these thy Words Francis ? And the Words a few Lines before in the same Page , viz. Error ●oves obs●urity , for its Habitation is Darkness , and Ignorance is the Mother of its Devotion , and Conformity the Monstrous Womb that produced it , &c. And are not these thy Words Francis ? and what difference pray between calling Conformity the Monstrous Womb , and Conformity a Monster ? Is not a Monstrous Womb as bad as a Monster ? What makes a Monster , but something Monstrous ; and is not that which is Monstrous , a Monster ? Besides , thou hast appeared so much affected with Jo. Ainsloe's Query and Answer , that thou ●ast taken some care to recite and print the ●ame at large , without shewing any dislike to ●t , but rather as a matter highly approved by ●hee : So that thou didst espouse the same ; and ●hat he writ therein , thou madest thine by ●doption . Thou appearing then of the sa●e ●ud gment , why art now so shy of thy own A●opted Birth or Monster ? Why didst not re●ct it at first , but hugg'd it so long ? 3. A Wilful Liar . That I am sure is false ; for though I may ac●dentally mistake in some Circumstances , yet ●ot a Wilful ( nor witting ) Liar : Thy pretended proof of this Charge , is the Conten . Apost . p. 3. viz. F. Bugg and his Company being go● into the Meeting before G. W. and into the Gallery . I grant there was an accidental Defect or Error happened in that Passage , I not being present to correct the Press , which was afterward corrected , as may be seen in my Sheet , The Cont. Apost . Recharg'd , p. 8. in these Words , viz. And Reader observe in the said Contentious Apostate , and his Blow refelled , p. 3. l. 11. to read [ And he into the Gallery , ] the word he being omitted , varies from the sense intended , though in some it was corrected after Printed , but in others omitted . Now pray how will this prove G. W. a wilful Liar ? F. Bugg can take small occasion to asperse . Therefore the defective Account , with the said omission of the Word [ he ] was neither wilfully nor maliciously sent abroad to render thee a Turbulent Disturber , as thou falsly sayest , p. 66. although thou wast very turbulent , and disturbed the whole Meeting , and that wilfully and wickedly , having like a Persecuting Informer , procured a Warrant and a Constable to cause the Persons met , forthwith to appear before some Justice of Peace , to answer an Information against the Meeting , because held under pretence of a Religious Worship , in different form from the Religion established in a place not licensed , &c. which disturbance being contrary to the intent of the Government . And afterwards thou falaciously excused this thy Turbulancy and Persecution , pretending thy getting a Justice's Warrant , was to the intent to get me to own my Book , Judgment fixed , N. Rom. unm . p. 53 , when the Warrant was expressly grounded upon an Information of a Meeting , under pretence of Religious Worship , &c. And to cause the Persons met , to appear as aforesaid , to answer the Information . Now was not this like an Informer ? 4. A Gross Perverter . This I deny as a gross Lie , and his Instance , ( though unfairly cited , ) Is no proof thereof : 'T is evident that the Instances Bugg brought in his Sheet , to prove the Quakers Contempt of Government , reviling Christ's Magistrates and Ministers , were out of E. Burr . Works , between the Year 1654 , and 1659 , which was in Cromwel's Days , against his Persecuting Magistrates and Ministers , whom E. B. testified against , because of their Persecution , and their Arbitrary Usurp'd Dominion over the Consciences of Men , p. 501. This is no Perversion , but true in fact . It was E. B's . reprehentions against them and their Corruptions , that Bugg did make the Quakers Contempt of Government , as more fully is made put in the Quakers Vindication , p. 3. And therefore I did not aggravate the Matter against him , by saying , to do us an ill turn , Bugg has at ●nawares run his own Head against a Wall. What E. B. G. F. and G. R. writ to O. C. and that Government , it was not in favour to their Usurpation over Mens Consciences , Persecution , &c. and the Substance thereof is answered long since , in a Treatise Entituled , Christ's Lambs defended from Satan's Rage . F. Bugg's Charge of Usurpation against the Quakers , p. 69 , shews a great height of Malice and Bitterness , as well as gross Falshood and Perversion , and particularly his first Instance , viz. And that in divers respects : First , In that you Summons the Kings Subjects to meet Annually in London , by way of General Council or Con●●ication , without any legal Warrant , Writ , or other Legal Authority ; and when sat in Council in Devonshire - House , you make Laws , Edicts and Canons for the King's Subjects throughout England 〈◊〉 observe , contrary and in direct opposition to those very Laws , Rules , &c. which the King and Parliament make at Westminster . Pray observe , this seems a heavy Charge , as if F. B. had a Mind to hang us all , as well as to Pillory and Cage us . But here are several notorious Falshoods contained in these his Words , in divers respects . As First , that we Summons the King's Subjects ; this is general , and without Exception too . Query , Who issues out Summon's for the King's Subjects ? Secondly , And what Subjects are they ? I know no such Summons , but in Free and Christian Agreement Our Yearly Meeting , ( which has been of many Years standing , is innocently held for Religious Good and Christian Ends , in the Law of God and for Peace , good Order , Amity and Unit● in the Churches of Christ ; that we may as God's People and Christian Society , be helpful and serviceable one to another in our Day . Thirdly , And this our Annual Meeting is of no such intent or design to be as a general Council or Convocation , to make Laws , Edicts or Canons for the Kings Subejcts throughout England to observe , in direct opposition to those of the King and Parliament , ( as F. Bugg most malitiously suggests . ) For First , We know no Laws , Edicts or Canons we have to make , either for the Kings Subjects , or for our selves , but to be helpful in the truth , and to stir up one another to faithfulness , to that Law and Testimony that God has given and made known to us , who is our Lawgiver . But what is this Usurpation so highly charged against us ? and what Laws and Edicts do we make ? To this he bids us see our Yearly Epistle , May 1675 , where ( he saith ) , viz. In opposition to the Law the King and Parliament made , that ●ou should not meet above Four , &c. You in opposition made a Law , that your People should neither ●●rsake , decline , nor remove their Meeting . This was one remarkable Instance of your justling with Authority , &c. [ Thus far F. Bugg . ] To make 〈◊〉 look as odious and obnoxious to the Government , as his deadly Malice promp●s him . But he is mistaken for all 's haste , for what he ●●ls a Law made by us in opposition to King and Parliament , we know no such Law made by us , ●●t an Antient , Apostolical and Christian Testimony and Exhortation , which our said Year-Meeting gave to our Friends ; and which had been our Care and Practice from the beginning , viz. That an open Testimony for the Lord should be borne , and a publick Standard for Truth and Righteousness , upheld in the power and Spirit of God , by our open and known Meetings , &c. The said Meeting giving Advice and Judgment , that all Friends gathered in the Name of Jesus , keep up those publick Testimonies , and not to decline , forsake or remove their publick Assemblies . Whereby 't is plain , that this Advice was given for no other end , than for their keeping their Publick Assembles for the Worship of God , in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ , and very agreeable to the Holy Apostles Exhortation , not for saking the Assembling of your selves together , as the manner of some is . And how proves F. Bugg , that this Advice was a Law made by our said Meeting , in opposition to the Law made by the King and Parliament ? Has he not herein reflected upon the Government , and aspersed the King and Parliament ? For where did they make a Law against publick Assemblies , gathered in the Name of Jesus Christ to worship God ? How doth he prove the Laws made against Conventicles , or Seditious Meetings , under pretence of Religious Exercise , &c. were made against such Assemblies as met in the Name and Power of Christ Jesus , really to worship God in Spirit and Truth ? for such were our Assemblies advised to be kept . Another Instance Bugg has against us , That our Books be spread up and down the Nation , &c. And what Usurpation or Justling with Authority is this ? Why not our Books be spread as well as his ? And must he have all the liberty to spread his dirty Defaming Books , and we not have liberty to divulge Answers to them , to remove his ●●lumnies ? That 's very unfair and unjust . But he objects being unlicensed ; that 's not true of all our Books . ( But who licensed his New Rome Arraign'd , with his Mock-Trial , Perjury and Pillory ? Neither is it true , that they tend to defame both Clergy and Gentry , unless to publish the Persecution and Cruelty of some of the Clergy , be to defame both the Clergy and Gentry in general , That none should pay Tithes or Steeple-House Rates ; are not the Words of our last Yearly Epistle which he also objects against . But that our Christian Testimony borne , and greatly suffered for , be faithfully maintained against t●●● : ●his was not Advice to all the Kings Subjects , but to those that have a Testimony from the Lord against the Oppression of Tithes , as being thereof convinced in their own Consciences , that they might be faithful to that Testimony for Christ Jesus , who put an end to the Law and Priesthood that upheld the Tithes . Which thou F. B. had once a Testimony against ; but wast unfaithful , and turned thy back thereof . But farther , our Christian Testimony against Tithes , was neither Law , Edict , or Cannon of our own making ; but what we received , and were perswaded of in Conscience , by the Light and Testimony of Jesus Christ from the begining . That none should carry Guns in their Ships : This is perversly and mischievously worded by F. Bugg , and ( in its being made a general Prohibition , ) varies from the Words of our Yearly Meeting Epistle ; and his Inference thereupon , is as Malicious and Mischievous , where he says , This shews that you are not content with your own ease , but as far as your Usurpation prevails , you weaken the Government , p. 70. Whereas the Caution in our said Epistle was Tender and Christian , relating only to some Ship-Masters , reputed Quakers , who contrary to their former Principle and Practise , ( and to the injury of their own Souls and Consciences , by their declension , and placing their Security in that which is altogether Insecure , ) carry Guns , & 〈◊〉 to ●e endangering their own and others Lives , having let in Disobedience and Unbelief , 'T was to such only the Caution was tenderly recommended , that they might be preserved through Faith and Confidence in the Arm and power of God , which is the greatest Security : Now I see not how this could be to weaken the Government , to have them thus preserved . 'T is more like to be a weakening ; for any such ( by acting contrary to their Principle and Conscience , and letting in Unbelief , ) to provoke God to deliver them up to their Enemy to be destroyed . Let it be observed how tender and careful our said Yearly Meeting was in this very Matter , with respect both to our Christian Testimony , and the outward Government also , in the next following Passage which F. Bugg , has unfairly and disingeniously left out ; and therefore 't is here inserted , viz. Dear Friends , you very well know our Christian Principle and Profession in this Matter , both with respect to God and Caesar , that because we are Subjects of Christ's Kingdom , which is not of this World , we cannot fight , Joh. 18. 36 , Yet being Subjects of Caesar's Kingdom , we pay our Taxes , Tribute , &c. according to the Example of Christ and his Holy Apostles relating to Christ's Kingdom and Caesars , wherein we are careful not to offend , Mat. 17. 27. and 22. 20. Rom. 13 ▪ 6 , 7. Being also very glad , and much satisfied in the many Testimonies given at this Meeting , of our Friends Innocency , quiet and peaceable Behaviour , under the outward Government , as becomes our Christian Principle and Profession . Now the Reader may observe , that our Yearly Meetings Epistles , are not Laws and Edicts Imposed , but Epistles tenderly recommended to the Consciences and Christian care of our Friends only . 5. A False Glosser . This also I deny , being not conscious to my self of false glossing in this , or any other instance he brings against me , viz. The Quak. Vind. &c. p. 2. F. Bugg accuses somebody for objecting against paying of Tithes under the New Covenant , because abrogated by Christ , &c. On which he makes his Observation , That by this they , ( i. e. the Quakers , ) have condemned the Martyrs and all Christians , &c. As in his Sheet , p. 4. Whereupon he adds , viz. Observe this false Glosser ; I did not say they condemn either Martyr or others , who did refuse Payment of Tithes ; I neither said so , nor will my Words carry any such intendment . Rep. Neither did I charge thee with so saying ; but that the Quakers have Condemned the Martyrs and all Christians , &c. ( which makes no distinction . ) And by what have they condemned them , but by denying to pay Tithes under the New Covenant , because abrogated by Christ. And how could this be a Condemning the Martyrs and all Christians in thy Sense , unless thou concludest they were all for the payment of Tithes ? The Case is plain , I did no accuse thee with saying the Quakers condemned the Martyrs or others who refused the Payment of Tithes , but because in opposition 〈◊〉 Tho. Ellwoods saying , [ They who pay Tithes uphold a Legal Ceremony , abrogated by Christ ; and thereby deny Christ to be con● in the Flesh. ] Thou observed , by this th● have condemned the Martyrs and all Christian yea , Kings , Parliament and People , who pay or take Tythes . Now doth not this plainly imply , that the Martyrs and all Christians were for the payment of Tithes , if the Quakers Testimony against Tithes be a condemning the Martyrs and all Christians ? I confess I cannot find how I am a false Glosser herein ; and against thee F. B. in this I fairly objected , That thy Observation was too general upon the Martyrs , for that both John Wickliff , William Swinderby , Walter Brute , William Thorpe , the Bohemians , with others mentioned in the Book of Martyrs and others , did bear Testimony against the Corruptions of the Popish Clergy , and against Tithes , and compelled Maintenance . ( And were not these Martyrs Christians ? ) This was made a Principle Article against them by the Papists , as more largely appears in the first Volumn of Martyrs , in the Reigns of Richard the Second , Henry the Fourth , and Henry the Fifth . 6. A Deceiver of the People . This I also sincerely deny , as a false and malicious Aspersion cast upon me and my publick Ministry ; it cannot reasonably be supposed to relate to any Personal or Circumstantial Mistakes , ( if I have been under any , ) but to my publick Ministry about Matters of Faith and Salvation ; concerning which , I know him in whom I have believed , whose Divine Power and Goodness , hath preserved me from my Youth upward in sincerity towards him , whom I have sought from my Childhood ; and therefore am not Conscious to my self of being a Deceiver of the People ; for my Eye is to the power and Spirit of Jesus Christ , who hath made known unto me the word of Reconciliation , and made me a Living Witness of him , to the Consciences of many Thousands , ( I bless God. ) And F. B's Instance , Judgment Fix'd Introd . if the Lord did not lay a necessity upon me , I should chuse to be mute , but the Lord has laid a necessity upon me , &c. And ( what Proof is this of his Charge ? Where 's the Assumption ? ) I say so still , he has laid a necessity upon me to preach the Gospel , and to testify against Deceit , Envy and Wickedness ; and I perceive not how this instance alledged agaisnt me , can be any colour of Proof for his Charge . Can my saying , The Lord has laid a necessity upon me , either to Preach or Write , prove that I am a Deceiver of the People ? Doth not F. B. himself pretend the Assistance of God's Holy Spirit , in his New. Rom. Arraign . p. 46. But I am sure a contrary Spirit has assisted him , blown and pu●t him up in his reproaching , stigmatizing , calumniating and rendring odious and obnoxious a Peaceable People , and their Christian Testimony ; for which the Righteous Judge of all will deal with him ; and as for his Personal Detractions , Defamations , and bitter Calumnies cast upon me ; as Wicked Forger , Wilful Liar , Gross Perverter , Publick Defamer , &c. I return them ( as before ) upon himself , and rejoyce in the Lord my God over them : And that I am counted worthy to suffer for his sake : For I esteem the Reproaches of Christ , greater Riches than the Glory of Egypt . A FEW Gentle Reflections UPON T. C's Animadversions , ( said to be Tho. Crisp's , ) on George Whitehead's Book , Entituled [ Innocency Triumphant . ] TO evince the said T. C's Inadvertency and Impertinency , as well as Malice and outrage , in his unjustly Charging G. W. and his Abettors ( or Friends ) as proved guilty of Contempt of the Person of our Blessed Saviour , the Holy Scriptures and Governours , Perverseness and Falsehood , justly chargeable on himself in his undertaking to be an Advocate for Fr. Bugg in his Bad Cause , and gross Calumnies . I finding a great part of T. C's Allegations against us to be taken upon trust from F. Bugg's Authority , and before answered in the foregoing Treatise , and divers other Answers ; I shall need say the less to many of his impertinent and senseless Quarrels ; but take notice chiefly of such as concern me , and those Friends whom he calls my Abettors , pursuant to his false Charge of being guilty of Contempt of the Person of our blessed Saviour ( i. e. Jesus Christ , ) and the Holy Scriptures , &c. which Charge ( in good Conscience towards God , and his dear Son Jesus Christ our Mediator , ) I sincerely deny and testify against in the first place , as contrary to my Christian Principle and Profession from my Youth upward . Howbeit to prove G. W's Partiality and Contempt of our Lord Jesus , T. C. saith , viz. I shall here insert some of G. K ' s. Doctrines , which G. W' s. Creatures opposed , and about which chiefly the Difference was , which G. W. represents but as [ pretended Fundamentals ; ] for says he , about some fundamental Doctrines , as is pretended by one Party . This is falsly represented and perverted against G. W. in the first Part , who did not represent those of G. K's Doctrin● mentioned , but as pretended Fundamentals ; although T. C. has this falsehood pretended Fundamentals divers times over in his Introduction . Whereas my Words are [ as is pretended by one Party , ] relative to divers Accounts lately published in Print , of some ●ate Divisions and Disputes about several Fundamental Doctrines of the Christian Faith , ( as is pretended by one Party , ) which therefore , ( at least some whereof , ) I grant to be such , and do not call them pretended Fundamentals : But that the late Division is pretended to be about them , according as my Words are clear , in our small Treatise referred to , viz. The Christian Doctrine and Society of the People called Quakers , p. 1. one of which Fundamental Doctrines which he says G. W. represents but as pretended Fundamentals , is , That Christ is in Heaven in his glorified Nature of Man , Body and Soul , God and Man both ; Introduction , p. 2. And where have I contemned or opposed this Doctrine ? How Inadvertent and unjust art thou T. C. in this ? Do not I plainly declare in the same Treatise , p. 3 , That as Man Christ died for our Sins , rose again , and was received into Glory . And p. 5. That Christ's Body that was Crucified , by the power of God was raised from the Dead ; and that the same Christ that was Crucified , ascended into Heaven and Glory , and that his Flesh saw no Corruption ; it did not Corrupt But yet doubtless his Body was Changed into a more Glorious and Heavenly Condition than it was in when subject to divers Sufferings on Earth . &c. Where 's now the Contempt of his Person ? Mayst thou not be ashamed of thy false abusive Charge ? From my Saying the same Christ that was therein ( i. e. in the Body , or Flesh , ) Crucified , thou falsly inferrest , So then he that was nailed to the Cross and pierced , was not Christ , p. 24. Here thou quarrellest with the Apostles Doctrine and Language , 1 P●t . 3. 18. Being put to Death in the Flesh : And ch . 4. 1. Christ hath suffered for us in the Flesh. 1 John 4. 2. Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh : And 2 John 7. And many Deceivers are entred into the World , who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh. Mark here , Christ suffered in the Flesh , and Jesus Christ come in the Flesh. Was this to deny him that suffered on the Cross to be Christ ? or to Con●emn his Person ? No sure . How sillily hast thou deduced many Inferences of this kind against us , as if thou wert minded to be Litigious ? Again , Thy inferring , That he who was nailed ●o the Cross , was not Christ , but a Body , a Vail , a Garment , of an Earthly , Perishing Nature , p. 24. Here again thou pervertest and abusest us : Where did we ever say , that he who so suffered , was not Christ , but a Body , a Vail ? &c. Seeing 〈◊〉 was Christ that suffered in the Flesh , and his ●●esh was called the Vail , Heb. 10. What Contempt to Christ , or Denial of him was such Say●●g ? And where did ever any of us say , that ●●s Body that was nailed to the Cross , was of a ●●rishing Nature , seeing his Flesh saw no Cor●●ption ? But thy great Offence is about I● . Pennington's ●ords , viz. We can never call the Bodily Gar●…t Christ , p. 26 , &c. And what then ? is this 〈◊〉 Undervaluing or Contempt to Jesus Christ ? ●25 . Is it not as true literally , as a Man's Gar●ent cannot be the Man himself that wears it ? ●●d may it not be as true figuratively , as Christ's Flesh was the Vail ? And that without any Contempt to him , his Body or Flesh called the Vail : Unless thou canst prove the Holy Apostle a Contemner thereof ; who used the same Expression . He ( i. e. Christ ) hath Consecrated for us a new and living way , through the Vail , ( i. e. his Flesh , ) Heb. 10. 20. That Christ Jesus , as to his entire Existence or Being , doth not consist only of the Body or Flesh that was Crucified . Thou grants as much , not only in thy Confessing his Person as joyned to the Godhead , Power , Life and Soul , was called Jesus and the Saviour , p. 24. But also his being the Anointed , as well as the Anointing , p. 5. For Christ was before Abraham , and David in Spirit called him Lord , and he was that Spiritual Rock that all Israel drank of . As for excusing Errors and Contempt of our Lord Jesus , ( falsly charged on J. P. ) and being liable to be charged therewith , p. 26. I am not conscious to my self of so doing , by discovering his Intention , and by his own Explications of the Words objected against him , viz. As either that the Vail which was Christ's Flesh , or that the Bodily Garment we can never call the entire Christ , as intimated by his own Words , chiefly and in the first place Christ ; as in one of his Questions . 'T is strange that thou should shew so much Envy against that Innocent Man , as to charge him with Contempt of our Lord Jesus , who did more sincerely believe and confess him , both in Principle , Doctrine , Charity and Innocent Conversation , ( than thou hast done ) whose sincere Confession is also evinced against thy Brother F. Bugg . By the Term Vail , we neither undervalue Jesus , nor set his Light above himself , as is implied against us , p. 25. For though every degree of Divine Light in us , is of and from Christ Jesus , yet 't is greater and more as in him , in whom the fulness is , as is more fully cleared in our said Treatise of our Christian Doctrine . Concerning the Flesh of Christ being a Vail , Heb. 10. thou grants was in respect to Man , and so the Figure may be proper , as intended by the Apostle : If so then that Vail was not the entire Christ , though the Name was given both to his Soul and Body in Scripture , jointly and severally ; if by the Term Flesh , be commonly understood the Person of our Lord Jesus , where then dost thou prove that the Quakers contemn the Flesh of Christ , considered either Spiritually or Litterally ? And though the Person of Christ I find but once mentioned in Scripture , 2 Cor. 2. 10. from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in facie Christi vel Conspectu Christi , in the Face or Sight of Christ. Yet understanding thy meaning , I am not minded to quarrel with thee about Words and Terms . To thy excusing F. Bugg's false Charge of Denying Jesus of Nazareth , against us , p. 25 , I do not perceive thou canst make any good work of it upon his Instances , where he makes our confessing Christ in us , and witnessing him nearer us than at Jerusalem , ( as J. Nayl●r did , &c. ) to be a denying of Jesus of Nazareth , or confessing that Divine Principle ( i. e. the Word , the Life or Spirit of Christ , ) to be the Foundation Principle of Living Faith and Knowledge of Christ in his Spiritual Appearance in us . I cannot see how this can be a Denying of Jesus of Nazareth , any more than the Apostles preaching the Word of Faith nigh in the Heart , &c. However thou art chargeable with Bugg's Charge in this Case , which results in this Proposition , from his own pretended Proofs , viz. That to affirm Christ in us , or that which may be known of God in us , or Christ nearer us than Jerusalem , is to deny Jesus of Nazareth . Wilt thou stand to this Proposition yea or nay , according to Bugg's said Charge and Allegation , in his Sheet ? If thou wilt , then it will appear who is in the Spirit of Anti-christ , G. W. or T. C. For whether is it not as much Anti-christian to deny Christ come in the Spirit , as to deny Christ come in the Flesh ? And for F. Bugg's Paper to the Parliament , thou grantest so far as it may affect any truly conscientious Quakers , it s not well , and thou believest he would not damage such , p. 14. But how know'st thou that ? When contrarywise like a Busie-Body in other Mens Matters , and malicious Incendiary , he did interpose with his inveterate Lying Pamplet to the Parliament , against the People called Quakers , even at that very interim when our Friends were petitioning the House of Commons for ease to the said People in general in case of Oaths . Did not this tend to obstruct favour being shewn them ? With what Face or Conscience then canst thou say thou believest he would not damage Conscientious Quakers , when his Invective Pamphlet made no such distinction ? For shame Man do not excuse such an act of apparent Malice and Intrusion , who also hast farther shewn how thou dost second Bugg in Malice and Partiality , where thou sayest Liberty of Conscience is but just and reasonable , for such as are truly conscientious , if they could be truly distinguished from G. W. and some such as he is ; the opportunity G. W. may have thereby , may be of ill consequence , p. 14. Here thou shewest thy self offended at G. W. and his Friends ; having that Liberty , 't is well thy Horns are short , that thou hast not power to ruin us , but only to bark , and hiss and grin at us Thy Mercy would be that of the Wicked , which is Cruelty ; and thou shews what thou wouldst be at , namely , to incense the Government against us , about our Marriages , and Non-payment of Tithes ; the latter thou art greatly concerned about , for Liberty of Conscience ( forsooth ) for the free Payment of them , p. 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. And who hinders such whose Consciences are for the Payment of them , if there be any such ? But we ●now very few beside thy self , who alledge Conscience , but rather Compulsion for the Payment thereof . And therefore thy Charge of Reflections on the Laws and Government of the Nation , and of Pride and Insolence , and deserves the Cognizance of the Ministers of State , p. 15. and Contempt of the Government , with much more of such inveterate Consequences against us about this case of Tithes ; all this is a great indication of Malice , Rage and Revenge more than Reason on thy part ; the Civil Government need not thee to be an Informer and Instigator therein against us , either because of our Non-payment of Tithes , or our Christian Testimony against them : For it is a Case well known to the Government ever since we were a People , and many of them have so much Charity , ( much more than thou hast ) as to believe it is not in Contempt to the Government of the Nation , that we refuse the payment of Tithes , but purely because it is a matter of Conscience to us , as our deep Sufferings , Imprisonments and Sequestrations on that account de demonstrate whether our Consciences be rightly informed or no in that Case . However 't is an easier matter for T. C. to rail against us , and to villi●● those among us that have given Testimony and Reasons in print , against the Impositions o● Tithes in this Gospel Day , than for him to answer or refute such Reasons . Why does he no answer T. Ellwood ? Besides his supposing that a there were Tithes before the Law , so he know not but that there may be , after that Law 〈◊〉 abolished , p. 19. And who then abolished tha● Law that gave the Priesthood a right to tak● them ? if that Law was of Divine Authority it must be abolished by Divine Authority , an● one had that Divine Authority to abolish them ●ut Christ. Therefore it was by his Divine ●uthority they were abolished . Now then it ●emains for T. C. either to prove that Christ re●ewed the Law for Tithes , or bring an Authority above his , to enforce Tithes again . But presume he 'll not attempt either of these . consequently he does not refute what he cites against Tho. Ellwood , by his [ I know not but ●ere may be , ] viz. That they who pay Tithes , uphold a Legal Ceremony , abrogated by Christ , and thereby deny Christ to be come in the Flesh , which is a mark of Anti-Christ . And whereas T. C. takes up F. Bugg's Objection , viz. That by this they have con●●mned the Martyrs , and all Christendom , Kings , ●●rliament and People , who pay or take Tithes ; a●●inst which , I objected his Observation is too ●●neral upon the Martyrs , because some did ●…ar Testimony against Tythes . Hereupon C. chargeth me with being very fallacious , ●…d with wilful wickedness ; and why so ? ●his is very harsh ; ) for saith he , F. B. doth ●…t say all without Exception . But I say his ●ords are general , that by this the Quakers 〈◊〉 condemned the Martyrs , as well as all ●●ristendom : And by what ? but by their Te●●●mony against the Payment of Tythes , be●●●se 't is in opposition to Christ's Abrogation . ●…r the Words who pay or take Tythes , cannot be ●ative to any of the Deceased Martyrs , for ●…y can neither pay nor take Tythes ; and therefore if Bugg had intended an Exception of the Martyrs who denied Tithes , he should have said , they have condemned such , or so many of the Martyrs who have paid or taken Tithes ; for who do pay or take Tythes , is in presenti , and not in preterito : The matter seriously considered I must needs look upon T. C. to be very uncharitable , in deeming me fallacious and wilfully wicked in this point . And I am still confirmed in my Consequence upon F. Bugg's Observation against our seeking Favour of the Government , viz. So that if we cannot for Conscience sake pay Tithes , he will not allow us any favour of the Government , if his uncharitable Attempts may take effect : And I do not find how T. C. can invalid this Consequence , by his excusing Bugg , in saying , viz. And not as G. W. would wickedly insinuate , that if any cannot for Conscience sake pay Tithes , they should have no favour . No , no , such uncharitable Sentences are to●… near of kin to G. W's . own Spirit , to come from F. B. far be it from him , I dare say it never entre● into his Heart , such an uncharitable Though● p. 17. To the first part , I answer the very Instanc● which F. Bugg and T. C. chiefly strike at in thi● point , viz. [ That Tythes are abrogated b● Christ , and the Payment thereof a Denial o● his coming in the Flesh and Antichristian , ] 〈…〉 a plain Indication , that 't is for Conscience sake they ( that are truly Conscientious and Faithfu● among us ) cannot pay them . And their believing they are abrogated by Christ , and therefore ●…e Payment thereof , a denying him to be come in ●…e Flesh , is the greater Argument of their be●●g conscientious to Christ , in refusing to pay ●●em . And therefore F. B's opposing our ha●●ng Favour , tended to affect the most Tender ●nd Conscientious among us . And 't is not T. C's . ●o , No , that will excuse him , nor his daring to ●…y such an Uncharitable Thought never entred ●…B's Heart , that will clear either of them from ●ncharitableness towards us in this point . What profound , heart-seeing Judge hast thou T. C. ●ade thy self herein ? it seems very high Pre●●mption in thee , ( but without Probation , ) thus acquit thy Brother Bugg's Malicious Heart , ●…en from Uncharitable Thoughts , as if he ●ere arrived to a very high pitch of Perfection ●…ove thy self , who confessest thy self to be an ●●perfect , Fallible Sinner in thy Imrod . And no ●●ubt as Fallible in this thy profound Judgment ●●d Vindication on thy Brother Bugg's Heart . ●nd as Fallible and Sinful thou appearest in ●ondemning G. W. as wicked , and his Spirit as ●…t the Spirit of Christ ; and that upon a strange , ●●esumptuous , and severe Exercration upon thy ●●lf , in thy following Words , viz. p. 5 , 6. I have here taken notice of but some of G. W' s. ●…ess , that by the Fruit he brings forth , you ●ay be capable of judging into what Root he is graft●●●… ; and I am so well satisfied that his Spirit is not ●…e Spirit of Christ , nor he ( as he falsly pretends ) a ●●stant Servant of Christ , that I do now in coolness and not in heat of Passion , give him and his wicke●● Abettors that advantage to improve their Intere●● and Power therewith , ( i. e. the Spirit of Christ , against me , that I may end my Days in Infamy , 〈◊〉 an Example to others , if his Spirit be that 〈◊〉 Christs . [ Thus far thou T. C ] . Now observe here what a fearful Execratio● or Curse thou hast conditionally denounced against thy self , ( resembling that Oath , God do●… to me and much more , if , &c. 1 Sam. 20. 1● 2 Sam. 3. 35. 1 King. 2. 23. ) and appears no le●● than an Oath of Cursing in a high degree , an● all to prove G. W. wicked , not led by the Spirit 〈◊〉 Christ , nor a Servant of Christ. For if he 〈◊〉 so , or his Spirit be of Christ , then with t●● Spirit of Christ we may improve our Intere●● and power against thee ; and so , as that thou may end thy Days in Infamy , as an Example , &c. Th●● this be no proof at all against G. W's . Spiri● but rather the contrary , that thou art not 〈◊〉 a Christian Spirit , nor led by the Spirit 〈◊〉 Christ , ( who forbids all Swearing , and co●mends Blessing and not Cursing ) by thy volu●tary bringing thy self under such an Oath 〈◊〉 Execration ; yet the Spirit of Christ in us , not willing thou shouldest perish or dye und●● thy own Curse , though thou hast reason to fe●● it's coming upon thee for thy great Envy , a●● horrible Presumption herein , if thou dost n●● Repent . SOME BRIEF REMARKS ON T. C's . BOOK . MY testifying against F. B's . Seditious Treatment , as thereby endeavouring ●o incense the Government , and stir up the Mobb ●gainst us , as being New Rome , Perjured Per●ons , &c. proves not me Seditious , as is falsly re●orted , p. 9. unless T. C. will own himself Se●itious , by the same Argument , because he ac●uses G. W. to be guilty thereof . Yet Buggs . ●eigned Pillory , T. C. confesseth was not well don'e ●ut then to extenuate and excuse F. B's Crime , ●e places it on high Provocations , &c. telling ●s Oppression may cause a Wise Man to err , p. 9. 〈◊〉 seems he would not have him rendred Mad , ●●o ' his Mock-Trial and Pillory , was no small piece of Madness . But is this all the Judgment and Condemnation T. C. has to give against Bugg's cruel Mocking and gross Forgery , in his Mock Trial , and Condemnation of Honest Men to Perjury and Pillory ; which appeared no other than the Tragedy of a furious Incendiary and Persecutor , and a work of Envy , Outrage and Scandal to incense the Government and Mobb against us ? which to testifie against , could not be seditious on our parts , as T. C. mistakes in his Inference . On that Saying his Flesh is a Figure , p. 26. The form of a Servant , and Fashion of a Man , are of the same Import , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Phil. 2 , 6 , 7. and not in Contempt given to Christ. Where is the Term Flesh , understood the Person of ●ur Lord Jesus ? Where did J. P. say that the Fles● or Body of Christ , is of an Earthly , Perishing Nature , p. 27. though ours be ? I am not convicted of acquitting the Guilty , 〈◊〉 accusing the Innocent , by inverting F. B's . A●gument against J. Pennington upon himself , viz ▪ Now if he ( to wit Christ ) took ours , and ours ●e a perishing nature , ergo his was perishing , or it w●● not ours , ( Quoth F. B. ) This being spoken o● Christ's Flesh and Blood , 't is apparent F. ● run into the same Error he falsly accuses J ● with ; for he cannot deny that Christ took up●● him the Flesh and Blood of our Nature , H●● 2. 14. And that ours is perishing . When●● F. B's . Consequence is , Ergo , his was perishing , 〈◊〉 it was not o●rs , thereby he plainly has in●e●re● Christ's Flesh and Flood to be of a perishing Nature . And thou T. C. canst not wind him out of this Snare , nor make F. Bugg innocent or sound in his Logick ; against which I excepted , viz. I deny his Ergo , though our Flesh be perishing as in us , it was not perishing when assumed by him : See Innocency Triumph . p. 23 , 24. How far the Name of Christ belongs to every Member , but chiefly to him the Head , is fully demonstrated in my Charitable Essay , p. 4. which thou dost not Answer but quarrelest impertinently . Where dost thou prove that the Person of our Lord Jesus consists of Flesh , if none do oppose his Flesh or Body , to his Soul or Life ? ( as thou sayest , ) p. 26. Thou wouldst know where the Flesh of Christ as distinguished from his Life and Soul , is called Christ in Scripture , p. 28. Answ. 'T was Christ that died , but how ? as to his Flesh , not as to his Soul or Spirit . That the Person Jesus of Nazareth , we do not exclude or deny to be Christ , p. 29. If by Person , thou meanest both Soul and Body , he being a Compleat Saviour . Qu. 1. Can the Bodily Garment taken literally , be called Christ ? 2. And is a Person made up of Body or Flesh only ? 3. What is a Person truly and properly ? Though [ Him ] is sometimes given to the Body , yet more properly to the Son of God , for whom it was prepared , or to the entire Christ. I know no Contemptuous Speeches , or Expressions of our Lord Jesus , or Scriptures excused , p. 12. 29. consequently much less owned by me . And though I have evinced J. P's . meaning , on his Words reflected on about the Body or Flesh of Christ ; it follows not that I thereby make his Expressions mine , seeing I note them as his . I may see cause otherwise to word the Matter , and yet our Intentions be the same . We have not the same Expressions and Utterance in all Cases , and yet may aim at , and mean the same thing , but never to Contemn our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ , ( or the Holy Scriptures which testifie of him , ) in any respect , far be it from us so to do . Therefore T. C. has grosly wronged and misrepresented us in these Matters , with many more Perversions , Lies and Scandals in his Pamphlet than are here recited , for which I wish his Repentance before he dies . What Terms were intended to G. Fox , where his Name is not mentioned ? p. 29. Dost thou ground this on Bugg's Charge , that our Prophets called him the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness , and put the North of England , for the Town of Bethlehem ; as in his New Rom. ●n●sk . Epist. to Ber. and p. 81 ? If thou dost , thou hast espoused a shameful Lye , before detected , that our Testimony against T●thes should be maintained , p. 30. is not a Law of our own making , but of Christ's ; and we are Conscientious in observing of it . And to thy Question about ( our boldness for ●ur Testimony in that Case , ) what may be expected from them , ( that is the Quakers ) , when they have ●ower ? p , 18. Answ. It may be expected that they will take ●way the Burthen of Tythes and forced Maintenance , and leave all People free to maintain their own Ministers . And what hurt should we ●o therein pray ? Qu. Who termed G. F. the great Apostle of Jesus Christ ? p. 30. He was a great Apostle ●f Jesus Christ , Ergo , not Jesus Christ , as some ●ave aspersed us with Blasphemy . But he might 〈◊〉 eminently instrumental in Jesus Christ , as a ●reat Apostle of his , endued with Life , Strength ●●d Power from above , for the Converting 〈◊〉 , and strengthning many in the Faith : And ● believe J. C. and J. A. meant no other of ● . F. but as eminently Instrumental in Christ Jesus , whose Servant , Minister and Apostle he ●as . Thou fallaciously beggest the Question , in ●●lieving those High Titles of the Branch and ●●e Star , were intended to G. F. p. 30 , as thy ●rother Bugg most falsly accused and defamed 〈◊〉 , ( for Denying ▪ ) with Perjury and Pillory : ●●s a bad Cause thou abette●● , for which the 〈◊〉 Jadge of all , will judge thee . If true Prayer and Praise to God by the Spirit of Christ in his Saints be as Living Sacrifices , how much more his Spirit and Life , which is the Cause of such Sacrifice ? Where provest thou that those Names an● Terms thou sayest were H●llish and H●ll-f●●ch●● were given by any of us to true Ministers , 〈◊〉 to Christ's Ministers , as thy Brother Bugg h●● accused us ? That F. B. gives us all the ill Names he c●● p. 32. I meant all the worst of Names , as N●● Rome , Impostors , Cowards , Sophisters , a pack 〈◊〉 False Witnesses , and Perjured Persons , and th●● Simon Magus never exceeded these Impost●● Were not these as ill Names as he could gi●● us ? What worse than Impostors and Sorcer●● as Simon Magus was ? canst thou give us worse ? P. 35 , 36. The Expressions charged as 〈◊〉 Contempt of Christ's Person , set in opposition 〈◊〉 Scripture Testimonies , seem to be taken b● on trust from Fr. Bugg , and out of his N●● Rome , &c. and mostly answered ; and I doubt not but our Friends Books out of which th● were taken , would clear themselves , if impartially examined . T. C's . Charge against the Quakers amo●●● to this , that they undervalue and con●em● 〈◊〉 Body of Christ , the Flesh of Christ , the Pers●n Christ , and the ●●a● Christ Jesus himself , p. 37. & ● Which is all a gross and great Slander a●a●● us , for which Jesus Christ will judge thee T. ● ▪ As also a Notorious Falshood that G. W. in his little Book , p. 5. doth implicitly deny Christ's Bodily Ascension , p. 37. I have confess'd the contrary , viz. That the same Christ that was Crucified , visibly ascended , &c , Thou finally appealest to the Impartial Reader , whether there be not great cause for Suspicion , that we contemn and slight our ever Blessed Lord Jesus , the Scriptures and Governours ? And what Cause or Ground of Suspicion hast thou for these Ca●umies ? with Bugg's Exceptions , and thy impertinent Quarrels , which we accept not for any Probations . Now thy great Charge is turned to Suspicion : For shame give over such Envious , Trifling , Doting , Shatter-headed , Confused Work ? And do not thus mispend thy little remaining precious time with such abusive peevish Quarrels and Calumnies against the Innocent and Peaceful , who ows thee no ill●il . What Injury have either G. Fox , Isaac Pennington , George Whitehead , or Tho. Ell●oad done thee , that thou art so peevish and bitter against them ? THE END Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65860-e1860 * 1 Joh. 1. 14. Luk. 1. 26. & 2. 10. 1. Mark ● . 7. Matt. 17. 5. & 26. 67. & 27 38. 50. & 28. 6. Acts 1. 9 , 10 , 11. & 5. 3● , 31. Acts 2. 36. Hebr. 5. 9. & 12. 2. Rom. 8. 34. Acts 7. 35. 56. & 10. 38. 1 Cor. 15. 15. 
A65864	----	Enthusiasm above atheism, or, Divine inspiration and immediate illumination (by God Himself) asserted and the children of light vindicated : in answer to a book entituled, The danger of enthusiasm discovered / by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1674 Approx. 98 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 41 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65864 Wing W1926 ESTC R24552 08246204 ocm 08246204 41160 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65864) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 41160) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1244:7) Enthusiasm above atheism, or, Divine inspiration and immediate illumination (by God Himself) asserted and the children of light vindicated : in answer to a book entituled, The danger of enthusiasm discovered / by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 75 [i.e. 80] p. s.n.], [London : Printed in the year 1674. Reproduction of original in the Cambridge University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Allen, William, d. 1686. -- Danger of enthusiasm discovered. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2005-01 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion ENTHUSIASM Above ATHEISM : Or , Divine Inspiration and Immediate Illumination [ by God Himself ] Asserted . And the Children of Light Vindicated : In Answer to a Book , entituled , The Danger of Enthusiasm Discovered . By George Whitehead . Job 32. 8. There is a Spirit in man , and the Inspiration of the Almighty giveth them Understanding . Printed in the Year 1674. AN Introductory Epistle . Serious Reader , IT is not for Disputation or Contention sake that we thus appear in this Controversie , but singly for the Truth 's sake , and the Information of the Honest-Hearted , who are enquiring after God's Way of discovering himself to the Soul : And that they may not be stumbled by those Groundless , Blind and Confused Assaults that some ambitious and scornful Minds do make against God's Immediate Way of Illuminating , Inspiring and Teaching his People , who obey and follow that True Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the World , even in an Immediate Way in some degree , which we assert in Opposition to meer man's Teaching , and to that dark and unlearned State , wherein People have been kept ever learning under Humane Traditions and Un-sent Teachers ; for this we are mis-represented to the World , as opposing God's Teaching by Instruments , or true Ministers , which is a gross Perversion ; for though we have often cal'd people to cease from man & mans teaching ( who speaks Divinations of his own Brain , and not from the Mouth of the Lord ) that they might wait upon God to be taught ; yet not to cease from or reject Christ's Ministers , or his speaking by them ; but have owned Christ's Teaching both immediately & instrumentally , as he pleaseth , by his Light and Testimony , in order to bring man to God , who is Light , and the All-sufficient Teacher : it being written in the Prophets , That they shall be ALL TAUGHT OF GOD , which is his very Way and Method of drawing men to his Son. But our Opposer of Embusiasm ( as he stiles our owning Immediate Illumination or Inspiration , without man's Teaching ) he confines Immediate Revelation from Christ to the first Promulgators of the Gospel , and saith , God's ordinary Way and Method of trans-mitting the Knowledge and Faith of the Gospel downwards to others successively was by such mens teaching it to others , as had themselves learned it of the Apostles , or others that taught the same Doctrine . Herein he talks like a Papist , however he is pleas'd to revile us with Incivilities , and toc ompare us to Orders among the Papists : But this his Method of transmitting the Knowledge of the Faith successively in Opposition to immediate Illumination and Inspiration , we can no more allow of as any real Proof of this man's Ministers being truly called and authorized to preach ( nor yet that he and his Fraternity have this way received the Knowledge of true Faith , which stands in the immediate Power of God ) then we can own the Pope to be Peter's Successor . Surely the Virtues and Fruits of God's Spirit , which are necessary to the true Ministry , are not successively derived to them by outward Tradition : Besides , the successive transmitting the Apostles Doctrine to Posterities , doth no more prove the Priests Ministers of the Gospel ( as he calls them ) then it proves the Quakers or any others ( who have the same Doctrine ) such Ministers . It s true , that Timothy , Titus , and others , who had Gifts in them for the Ministry , were approved by Paul and others of the primitive Elders for the VVork ; but this is no Proof that this Opposer's Ministers are either so gifted or approved . But if we run them backward to prove their Race and Call successively , it s most likely to stop and center in the Pope , if they will persist in denying an immediate Mission or Illumination from God as their VVarrant . VVhilst this Anti-Enthusiast construeth Christ's enlightening every man that cometh into the World , Jo. 1. 9. to be only with natural Light , a created Light , unto which he opposeth Gospel-Light and the Faith of Jesus Christ , he is inconsistent with himself , in granting , that by this Light ( which he also calleth the Faculty of Reason & Understanding ) man may know that there is a God , and that he is to be worshipped , and that it may possibly be a Light sufficient to direct the Heathen to as much as God expects from them ; As also , that most of the Precepts of the Gospel are desirable in themselves , viz. to love and worship God ; to Repent of that which hath been ill done ; to be Sober , Chaste and Temperate ; to do to others as we would be done to our selves , in Point of Equity , Fidelity and Charity ; to be Humble and Meek , Patient and Contented , and the like , &c. and these with theer certain Relation to a future happy State. And that there is no man that acts according to the best Reason of his Mind , but would chuse these things , &c. Observe , Serious Reader , here , that this universal Light of Christ in man , which he calls Reason , directs men to chuse those Precepts of the Gospel , which tend to their future happy State ; and why then he should deem this Light ( wherewith Christ enlighteneth all men ) but natural and created ? we see neither Reason nor Scripture-Proof from him , that there should be two such inward Lights , as a Gospel-Light peculiar only to some , and a Created Light , common to all , that directs man to chuse those Preceprs of the Gospel which tend to a future Happiness ( no more then he shews for two kinds of inward Darkness ) This Distinction appears both Unscriptural and Contradictory ; and the most gross Contradiction , to render this Universal Light as not sufficient to direct men to believe in the Son of God , when it shews those weighty Precepts of the Gospel , which tend to a future happy State. Again , Our Antagonist , as if he were set upon it , to divert peoples Minds from this inward Light of Christ , and from attending thereto for God's immediate Teaching , he perverts the Scripture , where on 2 Pet. 1. 19. he saith , That the Mind of God touching Salvation , before and under the old Covenant , was but obscurely made known by dark Prophecies , which are therefore said to be a Light shining in a dark Place . Which is , as if in the Dayes of the Gospel and New Covenant the Apostle Peter directed Believers back to those dark Prophecies under the Old , to take heed thereunto , as unto a Light shining in a dark Place ; or as to read his words after this man's sense thus , viz. We have also more sure Dark Prophecies under the Old Covenant , whereunto ye do well that ye take heed ( And what then is not so sure as they ? ) Whereas it was that living Word or Light of Christ in them , whereunto they did well to take heed , as unto a Light shining in a dark place , until the Day dawned , and the Day Star arose in their Hearts : This inward Light , though for a time it shineth as in a dark place in man , yet it leads them that believe and follow it to the Day of Christ , who is called the Bright and Morning-Star , and who is the only Way and Rule to all the Children of the Light. But this Writer , as but a meer Literal Professor , and Traditional Out-side Christian inveyes against those that ( he saith ) have vented high Speculations , and almost or altogether unintelligible Notions , and new-coyned Phraises & Expressions concerning the Work of God in the Soul , and of Union with Christ , and Communion with God , of living by Faith , and walking in the Spirit , and that these have been accounted Evangelical Preachers : And tells us , That this Way obtained a great Reputation among a great many of Christian Professors , and that many Persons have been tempted hereby , &c. Here the serious Readers may take a View of the man's Ignorance and Scorn , thus to sleight and contemn those Serious and Seriptural Expressions , of the Work of God in the Soul , Union with Christ , Communion with God , living by Faith , and walking in the Spirit ; such Phrases as these he counts unintelligible , and new-coyned : You may easily perceive what little Understanding he hath in the Mysteries of God , and how much void of the true and spiritual Speculation concerning the Dispensation of the New Covenant , and Spiritual Condition of true Christians therein . Again , This Opposer concludes , That if we do not make the Doctrine of Christ in the Scriptures the adequate Rule of the Motions and Inclinations of our Minds , and Actions of our Lives , whereby to know when they are of God , and when not ; we have then no certain Rule to go by , but are continually liable to most Horrible Mistakes . See here how he hath shut out all Divine Light , Spirit , and God's immediate Teaching , both from being in us , and from being any certain Rule ( though we do not oppose what the Spirit teacheth , to Christ's Doctrine ; for the Spirit teacheth the same immediately ) Yet what is it but to promote Atheism , to exclude God , and Christ , and Spirit , and Light within , as no certain Rule , and to exalt the Scriptures above them all , and to give the Scriptures that high Epithete which no where they give themselves , as , Adequate Rule of Inward Motions and Inclinations ; Whereas the inward Light of Christ , which makes manifest all things that are reproved , is therefore the most suitable Rule to try inward Motions ; for unto this Light he that doth Truth cometh , that his Deeds may be manifest that they are wrought in God ; and it is the same Light that reproveth the Evil Deeds of those that hate it , see John 3. 19 , 20 , 21. It is not two kinds of inward Lights , one Natural , and another Spiritual . The kind of Language which this Writer treats us withal and applyes to us , is such censorious , harsh and scornful Stuff as follows , viz. Enthusiasts , call'd Quakers ; Narrowness , Austerities & Incivilities ; Deceived ; Proudly exalt , and justifie your selves ; Great Absurdities ; Your great Talk of your Light within ; abused that 1 st Chapter of John , vers . 9. Your Enthusiastical Notion ( viz. touching the Light of Christ within ) You stumble ; Your Wild Notion of men's being guided by the Internal Teachings of the Spirit , without Outward Teaching ; Your bold and confident Assertion , Enlightened ; not in your pretended Way , a very ill Mind ; False Accusers ; Romish Factors : You Dissemble ; Tergiversation and Shuffling ; Pretences for a Blind ; Your Enthusiasm ; Enthusiastical Fancies ; Your Spiritualizing Baptism , and the Lord's Supper ; * Your invented Mystery of the Redemption of the Seed ‖ in men ; Your New Notions and Speculations of your being taught only by the Light within ; No Light in you ; Desperate Error ; New Mystical Notions ; Taught of God immediately ; These Dreams , Fancies and High Conceits ; You have cryed down the Bravery and Pride of the World , which others retain ; Voluntary Humility ; Vainly Pust Up ; A Rough Garment to deceive ; Ravening Wolves Your own Conceits ; Inward Pride ; Over-valuing your selves ; Groundless Confidence ; Strangely deluded ; Your Whimsi●s and Phantasies bring a Scandal upon the Christian Religion , to encourage Romish Agents ; Your Newaffected Modes and Phrases did insensibly lead you from one Noval Conceit to another , until you have exceeded all Bounds of Sobriety , and become perfectly Drunk ; Your New Taken-up Way not Spiritual , but Carnal ; More Self-conceited , Proud and Disdainful , &c. With more such hard Language and manifest Untruths ( together with plain Contradictions ) hath this Opposer of Immediate Illumination treated us ; for which , I say , the Lord grant him Repentance and Forgiveness . We have Information of his Name , and what an uncertain Temporizer he hath been in his latter years about Religion ; but understanding that in former times he has had a Sincerity in him , & believing that he hath sought after Good Things and more Spiritual Matters formerly then now , we forbear publishing his Name at present ( seeing he was not willing to it himself ) desiring that he may secretly consider these things , and this following Answer ; and that the Lord may give him Understanding , to acknowledge his Truth : For , God knows , we would not have him dye under the Guilt of his Apostacy , and Iniquity he hath brought upon him by his Groundless and Fruitless Opposition against God's Truth and People . The Substance of the following Answer was written soon after his Book came out , but the Accomplishment and Publication was hindred by other Matters of more Weight interposing . I desire the Reader to take notice of one Instance that makes for us , and against our Opposer ( on the behalf of God's immediate — Mission , Inspiration and Teaching ) out of the Book of Martyrs , namely , J. Huss , on the behalf of Joh. Wickliff , gives this Testimony , speaking of Preachers invisibly sent of God ; & that invisible sending of God is much better then the sending of Men , and of the private Law , which by the Instruction of the Holy Ghost is written in the Heart ; and that the Private Law is much more worthy then the Publick : this he speaks of Augustine in his Sixty Fifth Book of Question unto Orosius , and further addeth , For the Spirit of God is a Law , and they which are moved by the Spirit of God are led by the Law * of God ; And who is he that can worthily Resist against the Holy Ghost ? Whosoever therefore is led by the Spirit of God , albeit his Bishop doth say him Nay , let him go freely ; for the Law is not appointed for the Just Man : Where the Spirit of God is , there is Liberty ; and if ye be led by the Spirit , ye are not under the Law. From whence he infers thus , viz. Behold , here it is affirmed , that the sending by God through Inspiration is not bound under the Bondage of the Law ; for that Law is more worthy then the publick Law : Secondly , That the Law is made for Transgressors and Offenders , and not for the Just : Thirdly , That whosoever is led by the Spirit of God , although his Bishop stand against him , he may proceed unto a better Life . Whereby it is evident , that a Deacon or Priest disposed to preach , and being led by the Spirit of God , may freely preach the Gospel of Christ , without the Spiritual Licence of his Bishop : it is evident for so much as it is good that a Deacon or Priest do live well , and preach fruitfully , Ergo , he may proceed from Idleness unto the Labour & Office of Preaching , and so unto a better Life . See here how plainly these things make for us , and against our Opposer , and his Gainsaying the Immediateness of Christ's saving Illumination , & the sending the Spirit to guide all Christians by its immediate Motions , wherein his Opposition tends to Atheism , and to reject the Saving Knowledge of God and Christ ; for that which may be known of God is manifest in man : And the true and living Knowledge of him is by the Revelation of his Son , the Enjoyment of whose immediate Power and Presence is beyond all Outward Teaching , Words or Expressions . Again , It manifestly tends to Atheism to conclude , that no Divine or Saving Illumination is immediately conveyed to man's Soul by his Maker but only by such mediums , as the Scriptures or Man's Teaching ; for then what is Man ? and in what Capacity is his Soul before he either know the Scriptures , or have man's Teaching ? or if there be nothing of a Divine Nature , Life or Light in men immediately from God , who have not those Outward Means , how are their Souls Immortal , and capable of Future Rewards ? And what better then a Beast doth it render man ( as to a future Condition ) to suppose he hath no Divine Life and Illumination from his Maker , but only that all must be infused into him Instrumentally , through his natural Organs or Sense ? And how should he receive a Gospel-Ministry or Advantage by it , if he have no Gospel-Light in him , before conveyed to his Soul immediately by his Maker himself ? To conclude this Introduction , let these Positions be seriously considered : First , to Deny the True God , who is Light , is Atheism . But to Deny his Immediate Light in Man , is to deny the True God. Secondly , To oppose that which gives the Knowledge of God , and his Glory in the Face of his Son ( and therefore to be without his Knowledge ) is Atheism . But to oppose God's Immediate Illumination , or In shining Light in man , is to Oppose that which would give him the Knowledge of God , and so to be void of his Knowledge . Thirdly , To Deny the Immortality of the Soul is Atheism . But to deny the Immediateness of his Divine Life [ which is Light ] in the Soul , by which it immortally subsists , is to Deny the Soul's Immortality . Fourthly , And to go about to stop the Mouth of God from teaching his People Immediately , is the very Way to introduce and set up Atheism . Because of this Anti-Enthusiast , his opposing the Immediateness of Divine Light , Teaching , and Illumination of God's Omni presence , and his immediate Life in the Soul ( without which the Soul cannot Immortally subsist , either in a State of Happiness , or as to its own Being ) I therefore conclude him , and all who are of his Opinion , to be therein guilty of Atheism ; which I desire the Lord to give him and them a Sence of unto Repentance , and the Acknowledgment of the True and Living God , and Jesus Christ , and his Light within unto Salvation . From a Lover of Souls , G. W. London , the 22th of the 5th Moneth , 1674. ENTHUSIASM Above ATHEISM : OR Divine Inspiration and Immediate Illumination by God himself Asserted . Sect. I. Divine Inspiration and Immediate Illumination Asserted . BY his Title [ The Danger of Enthusiasm ] We must understand [ The Danger of Immediate Illumination from God , or God's Immediate Teaching , the Spirit 's Immediate Direction and Working , Immediate Revelation and Inward Teaching of God's Spirit or the Light within , the Spirit 's teaching Men Immediately by Internal Illumination & Operation , &c. ] According to his own Explication : See Danger of Enthus . pag. 13 , 14 , 16 , 40 , 46. & 60. So that he should have stil'd his Book [ The Danger of divine Inspiration ] & then his Blindness would more plainly have appeared , then by that hard Word [ Enthusiasm ] which we are not to understand in this Controversie , according to the Heathen's Acceptation of it , as In●pired by their Gods , nor as their Infused Oracles , received and taught by their Idolatrous Priests or Sacrificers ; for these we never owned in Principle nor in Practice ; but [ Enthusiasm ] taken simply , as a divine Inspiration or Breathing into by a Deity , we do assert and contend for in the best Acceptation . However the Word hath been used in Scorn & Contempt by Popes and their Agents , against Men professing divine and immediate Inspiration , who have opposed the Apostatized Church of Rome , and the Pope's limiting People to believe & worship by Tradition . His accusing the Quakers with being guilty of changing God's Method of bringing Men Salvation , is as false as his Title contemptuously applyed against us , For our asserting divine Inspiration and the Sufficiency of the Spirit 's Teaching , and that Men ought to wait upon God's divine Illumination , that they may be all taught of God , as he hath promised : This can be no changing of God's Method ; but in Order to the fulfilling of his own Promise , which is God's Way and Method , That all his Children shall be taught of him . The old beaten Path of the Christian Doctrine , p. 9. leads us to God's Immediate Teaching , which they that oppose , are all out of the Chr●stian . Doctrine , and Enemies to it . As for E. Burroughs his saying , His pure Spirit is put into the inward Parts to be the Rule and Guide of Life in all things ; and only by the Teaching of the Eternal Spirit , is the living God known in the Creature , &c. And W. Penn's saying , that our Belief concerning the Scriptures , is that inward Testimony , that we have received from the holy Light within us , to the Truth of those Sayings ; wherefore the Scriptures are so far from being the great Rule of Faith and Practice , that the Light of Christ within is both our Warrant and Rule for Faith in and Obedience to them . And is this either contrary to God's Method , or quite different from his Way , as this Man grounds his Objections , let the spiritually minded judge , how he hath opposed the very Tenour of the New Covenant , and God's Promise therein ; namely , his Spirit put into the inward Parts , which should guide into all Truth : And this Opposer himself confesseth , That Christians are said to be one Spirit with Christ ; and by this Spirit and Temper , when given us , we know that we dwell in him , & he in us ; and if any Man have not the Spirit of Christ in some Measure , he is none of his , p. 119. This is the Man that undertakes to overthrow Enthusiasm , and doth not own God's Immediate Enlightning & Teaching in these Dayes ; but counts it contrary to his Way and Method ; but now it is by the Spirit , that we know that we dwell in him , and he in us ; and he that hath not the Spirit of Christ , is none of his : See how the Man hath broke the Neck of his own Cause ; and surely , if God dwell in us , and we in him ; and his Spirit be our Rule to know this , he must not be limited to Silence , or to a being mute from immediately teaching those who are confessed to be made one Spirit with him : And what gross Ignorance is it to limit God's Teaching or Saving Illumination to a Mediate or Instrumental Way of Man's Teaching , as this Man doth , in his denying an Immediate Way of Saving Illumination , p. 47. which is all one , as if he should tell us , that though God dwell and walk in his People , yet still they are either Strangers to him , or else he is silent from speaking to them , except when they hear outward Preaching , &c. And what is this but to limit the Holy One , & set him and his People at a Distance , when they are his Tabernacle , and he dwells and walks in them ? That God , Christ , the holy Spirit , do by Immediate Illumination of our Minds , and without external Teaching by Scriptures or by Men , shew us , or reveal to us , what we ought to do ; and that the Children of God are taught of God , and need not any other Teacher , p. 13 , 14. This he excepts against , as quite different from God's Method and VVay ; wherein he hath opposed plain Scripture Testimony ; They shall all be taught of God ; they shall not teach every Man his Neighbour , &c. But the Anointing which ye have received abideth in you ; and ye need no Man to teach you , but as the same Anointing teacheth you of all things , &c. We do therefore assert the Sufficiency of this Divine Illumination or Heavenly Unction , as being of it self able to shew and reveal to us what we ought to believe and do in all things ; for that it was sufficient , both to make true Prophets and Preachers , and to inable the Holy Men of God to give forth what they spake , as they were moved by the Holy Ghost : And without the Inspiration of the Almighty men cannot truly understand the Scriptures ; yet we do not confine the Holy One only to Inward Teaching , or an Immediate Way ; though the Sufficiency thereof to them that are turned to it , we do assert ; yet by this Divine Inspiration or Immediate Teaching God hath been and is pleased to call out Instruments to testifie and preach forth what their Eyes have seen , and Ears heard , and Hands handled of the Word of Life , even the same VVord of Life which they have received ; and this only is the effectual and powerful Preaching , which flows from the VVord of Life or divine Unction within , and not that which comes only by Tradition , Reading and Hear-say , without the Spirit 's Guidance . And therefore while we own the holy Scriptures , and outward Teaching , as proceeding from divine Illumination and the immediate Unction within , and as a Proof of the Sufficiency thereof , the Man wrongs us , in his endeavouring to begeta Suspicion of us , as if we had an aking Tooth against outward Teaching , of as if the VVork and Office of the Gospel-Ministry it self were the Eye-Sore to us ; as also with dissembling the Matter , heaping Contradictions , with Tergiversation and Shuffling , p. 83 , & 92 , & 94. And why so ? but because we teach People , give forth Books , &c. VVhile yet it is our Judgment , That Men may be sufficiently taught of God himself by his Light and Spirit within , now under the New Covenant , p. 93. But how proves he this either a Dissembling or Contradiction , when we do not pretend to preach , teach or write without God's Teaching and Aid , wherein we proclaim the Sufficiency thereof , exciting Men to turn from Darkness to the Light , and from Satan's Power to God ; for Power , Life , Spirit , Illumination and Teaching immediately , as he hath taught us ; which is no more Contradiction then was in the Prophets , Christ or Apostles , who preached and proclaimed the same thing , as that all God's People and Children should be taught of him ; and the Anointing which they had received from the Holy One should teach them so , that they should need no Man to teach them , but as the same Anointing taught them of all things ( a plain Proof of its Sufficiency ) His supposing , that we direct Men to a Natural Light in them , p. 15. is not true , but contrary to his own Citation before of our VVords , That God's pure Spirit , and the Light of Christ within us , as both our VVarrant a●d Rule for Faith , and Obedience to the Scriptures ; which therefore cannot be a Natural Light in them . He grants that Jesus Christ himself revealed the Gospel to his Apostles ; and after his Ascension , he , by sending them the Holy Spirit , immediately inspired them with the clear Knowledge and Understanding of it : But for us to assert Immediate Inspiration , and the sole Sufficiency thereof , he deems now a changing of Gods Method , which he confines to Man's Teaching and the Scriptures ; and yet in plain Contradiction to himself , he is made to confess , That the Scriptures attribute it ( viz. the saving Work of Grace ) to God , to Christ , to the Holy Spirit , p. 18. And further saith , Indeed the VVork of Grace in Men is most properly attributed to God , to Christ , because he is the principal Cause of it , and all other but subordinate ; yet the Effect is some times attributed to subordinate and second Causes also , though less properly , p. 19. So that we , in attributing the saving VVork of Grace in men to God , to Christ , we take the most proper VVay and Method ; how then is this contrary to God's Way and Method ? And our referring Men to his inward Light , to be immediately taught by him , doth both shew our owning his making Use of Instruments and outward Teaching , in order thereto , and as subordinate ; as also , that they shall be sufficiently taught of God , when they are come unto him to depend upon his Teaching , as his Instruments are in their Ministry : And this man hath confessed a Concurrence of the Operation of his Grace and good Spirit , together with the rational Evidence of the Truth of the Gospel , to perswade Men , p. 15. And is not this Grace and good Spirit Immediate , when it operates in the Hearts ? & though God is pleas'd to make Use of Instruments for the Help and Advantage of the weak , it follows not , that either there shall be alwayes need of such a mediate Way of Help , or that he will not immediately teach and operate in these Dayes ; for that were still to limit him and his People to a Distance one from another ; whereas it is confessed , That the VVork of Grace in M●n is most properly attributed to God , and less properly to subordinate and second Causes : But saith this man , The Holy Spirit works the saving Change in Men still , by the VVord of the Gospel , as communicated to Men's Minds by the Scriptures , or by Men's Teaching the same Doctrine which is contained in the Scriptures . And this in Opposition to our Way ( as he calls it ) of God's own Immediate Working , p. 16. where observe : First , He limits the Spirit 's inward Work , either to the Scriptures or mens Teaching , which excludes all that have not the Scriptures or mens Teaching , from the saving Work or Change in them ; and confines all God's People , as Children under Tutors and Governours , that they may be alwayes learning ; and then when shall they know the Truth ? And of whom do their Teachers learn , and receive the Understanding of the Scriptures ? 2dly , To his saying , That the Doctrine contain'd in them is the Rule of Faith and Practice : He should rather have said , A RULE subordinate to the great Rule of Faith and Practice , to wit , that divine Light which was the true Prophets and Apostles Rule , in giving forth the Scriptures , & is now the true Believers Rule , in truly believing , understanding and obeying the wholesom Doctrine contained in them , which none truly own , but they who believe in the Light , and follow and walk in the Spirit , which the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles directs men to . His accusing us with opposing mens being enlightened and taught by Christ , to their being taught by the Scriptures , is not true , unless he intended the Scriptures without Christ's Light within ; for we assert his immediate Illumination and Teaching , in Opposition to mens preferring the Scriptures before the Spirit , and excluding its immediate Teaching in these Dayes : we do not oppose Christ's Enlightning men to the true Knowledge or Understanding of the Scriptures , which proceeded thence . His rendering the Spirit and the Word two several Causes that produce the same Effect , viz. God's Working savingly upon men , and his calling the immortal Seed of the Word , 1 Pet. 1. 23. The Sword of the Spirit , and God's great Instrument or Means , by which the Spirit doth its Work upon Men ( meaning the Scriptures ) p. 18 , 19. In these is he greatly mistaken : For , first , The Spirit and the Word are no such differing Causes ; for they are one ; and the immortal Word was before the Scriptures . 2dly , This Spirit or living Word doth work upon men , both with and without the Scriptures , as it pleaseth : Howbeit , the Spirit is immediate in its inward Manifestations and Discoveries , and is only God's Gift . And while this man hath granted , That Christ is God , and God every where present , and so in all Men , p. 20. He must grant an Immediateness , both of his Presence , Light and Teaching in Man , or else he allows man no Preheminence above a Beast , and endeavours to limit God to Silence in man , unless when he hears outward Teaching or Scripture , which cannot profit him without God's immediate Teaching and inward Speaking . His accusing us with jumbling about Christ's being in all Men , and saying , that in Respect of his vertual Presence as Mediator , as when he rules and operates in Men's Hearts by his Authority , and by the Evangelical Law ; in this Sense he is not in all Men , p. 20 , 21. And when did we ever say , that he was in this Sense in all men , that is , as ruling , &c. or to dwell in the Hearts of all men by Faith ? But while 't is granted , that as God Christ is every where present , and so in all men ; it 's granted , that he is in all men in some Sense , and his Presence is immediate ; and though he does not rule in wicked mens Hearts by his Evangelical Law and dwells not by Faith in the Hearts of Unbelievers ; yet by his Light he reproves them for Sin often , and immediately in their Consciences , and his immediate Reproofs daily persue the Transgressors , who rebell against his Light ; and there is both Vertue and Power in his Presence , immediately to torment the Wicked , and refresh the Righteous ; therefore he is not alwayes confined to speak by the Instrumentality and Agency of second Causes , as this Opposer darkly imagins , who neither rightly knows our Principle to state it , nor doth clearly state his own ; but runs into a Multitude of Tautologies , and Repetitions , and Contradictions , that a Body hath something to do to find out the Matter he drives at , though one search his Book with a great deal of Care , Memory and Perspicuity ; as for Instance ; He confesseth both the Work of the Spirit , and Christ dwelling in the Heart , and a being made one Spir●● with him ; as also to a super-natural Revelation and Illumination in the Way of Salvation , and the Presence of God every where , and in all Men ; and yet opposeth the immediate Operation of Christ in men , but saith , He doth not teach Men now immediately in Person , p. 21. * And who saith he doth ? But if he teach men immediately in Spirit , as to be sure he doth his own who hear his Voice , it 's sufficient . And this man confesseth in Rev. 2 , 3. That it is seven Times said , He that hath an Ear , let him hear what the Spirit saith to the Churches ; as every Man in the VVorld hath , that is not deaf ; as also He adds , That when it ( the Doctrine ) is communicated to them by VVriting , as where it is so by Preaching ; yea , saith he , I had almost said or by * immediate Revela●ion , p. 28. Reader , observe here how uncertain , variable and unstable this man is in his own Judgment and Principle ; for one while he opposeth immediate Revelation or Enthusiasm , as none of God's Way or Method now ; another while he does assent to the hearing of the Spirit , or receiving its Doctrine by immediate Revelation ; and so then the Controversie he seems to place , not so much upon immediate Revelation , as the Belief , Obedience or Disobedience of the Doctrine and those Revelations , which he confesseth , 'T is possible Men may have from God , as Balaam had , and Judas and other Workers of Iniquity , that prophesied and cast out Devils in Christ's Name , had , p. 28. But now you who deny immediate Revelation to the Church of Christ in these Dayes ; do ye not therein render the Church inferior to Balaam , Judas , and those Workers of Iniquity ; nay , I may add to Adam after the Fall , who heard the Voice of God ; and to Cain , to whom also God spoak : And I cannot understand how this Man can really own the Doctrine of Christ and the Apostles to be a Rule , much less the Rule of Faith and Christian Practice , as he asserts , p. 22. while he saith , That Christ Jesus doth not savingly enlighten all thos , who yet are savingly illuminated , neither by natural Light , nor by super-natural Revelation in an IMMEDIATE Way ; and addeth , Then it follows that such are enlightened by supernatural Revelation , MEDIATELY or instrument . ●● , p. 47. Note here , Reader , that he pretends to own super-natural Revelation , but not in a immediate Way , and a being savingly illuminated , but not immediately ; and yet pretends to own that Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles , which directs both to God's Teaching , and Hearing , and learning of the Father , and coming to Christ for Life , hearing what the Spirit saith , and to wait for the Revelation of Christ from Heaven , and to look for the Appearance of the great God the Father , whom no Man knows but the Son , and he to whom the Son will reveal him : And therefore this man's denying , that Christ Jesus doth savingly enlighten , or afford super-natural Revelation in an immediate Way , hath at once excluded and denyed both the Knowledge of God and Christ : and this is the very Way to bring in Atheism ; for what shall assure us either of the Knowledge of God , Christ , Scripture or true Preaching , if immediate Illumination be denyed us ? And yet this man ( to his own Confutation ) pretends , not to exclude the concurrent Operation of God's Spirit upon the Heart , p. 18. But how should we believe , that he really owns the Christian Doctrine , contained in Scriptures , to be any Rule at all , either of his Faith or Practice , while he opposeth the very thing which it directs us to , viz. The New Covenant , the Spirit 's Teaching , immediate Illumination , &c. Sect. II. Of the Divine Unction , Light , New Covenant and Use of the Ministry . ANd this Opposer will have his Sense and Meaning upon some plain Scriptures , contrary to their very Import ; as upon 1 Joh. 2. 20. But ye have an Unction from the Holy One , and ye know all things . And again , ver . 27. But the Anointing which ye have received of him , abideth in you ; and ye need not that any man teach you , but as the same Anointing teacheth you of all things , and is Truth , and is no Lye ; and even as it hath taught you , ye shall abide in him : About this he appears very much puzled , and cannot tell how to wind off the plain Words on the Behalf of the Anointing , and its full and plentiful Teaching : And after he hath spoken doubtfully about the Sense of this Scripture , he concludes our Notion of the holy Spirit 's Teaching Men , that live under the Gospel , cannot be the Sense of it ; when the Words are plain , Ye need not that anyman teach you , but as the same Anointing teacheth you of all Things : Nor would this render the Design of John in this Epistle and other Writings needless , p. 64. while his Epistle and Writing proclaims the Sufficiency of the Anointing , wherein he writes both to little Children , young Men and Fathers ; and what he writes , was , as he had received from the Anointing , and not meerly as Man's Teaching , and argued no Defect in the Anointing at all , but rather exalts it , and tends to encourage others to continue in it , to abide in the Truth ; it being confest , That both the Apostles & other Believers were established in Christ , by the Anointing of God upon them , from 2 Cor. 1. 21 , 22. As also , That they were induced at the first to believe the Doctrine to be from God , because they perceived the Anointing of God to be upon them that preached it , p 66 , 67. So that here it is confest , that Believers Establishment in Christ ( both Preachers and Hearers ) was by the Anointing of God upon them ( as he which stablisheth us with you in Christ , and hath anointed us , is God ) and that they were induced to believe the Doctrine to be from him , because that they perceived that Anointing to be upon ( or in ) the Preachers : Surely then there was a spiritual Eye opened in them , so to perceive . And this is our Method , both for believing , obeying , and saving Men , which one while this Man hath opposed , as contrary to God's Way ; another while he confesseth to it ; but then he darkens the Matter again upon the Words , Ye have an Unction from the Holy One , and ye know all Things ; he gives this Meaning , viz. Not that by this U●ction the commmon Christians were immediately inspired with the Knowledge of all Truths ; but that by it they were assured of the Truth of all things which the Apostles had taught ; and further adds , It is not said , that this Anointing did teach them all Things , but that it did teach [ of ] all Things , that is , of or concerning the Truth of all Things , to which it was a Witness or Evidence , p. 66 , 67. He seems to lay a great stress here upon the Particle [ Of ] as if the Anointing did only teach them Of , or concerning those Doctrines which the Apostles preached , but not the Doctrines themselves ; and then who taught the Apostles to preach ? Was it not the Anointing ? And did not several Gifts flow from one Spirit ? But the man overlooks the Words of the Apostle cited by him , viz. Ye need not that any man teach you , but as the same Anointing teacheth you : and did not this Anointing teach the Believers in the Apostles Absence , and when they had not their Epistles read among them ? Or was it only a Witness or Evidence to what they spoke or preacht ? Or did it abide in them , not to speak to them in the Absence of the Apostles and their Epistles , but only in their Presence ? What a strange Limitation would this be , that indeed endeavours to stop the Mouth of the Anointing ? And his denying , that by this Unction the common Christians were immediately inspired with the Knowledge of all Truths , leaves the Matter still doubtful on his Part , and seems at least to be a Sense twarting the Apostles Words , Ye have an Unction from the Holy One , and ye know all Things . He should have told , whether he believes that the common Christians ( as he calls them ) were inspired with any Truths necessary to Salvation ? If he denies this , then he bids adieu to all divine and saving Knowledge , as to those Christians : Whereas the same God that anointed the Apostles to preach , and established them in Christ , did both anoint and establish those Believers , to whom they preached ; so , their Ministry was effectual only through that Anointing , which enabled them to preach ; And we never denyed the Apostles Preaching , in order to direct men to that Anointing : All which still prefers the Anointing as the principal Means and Rule , and owns true Preaching , as in Subordination to it ; But does not therefore oppose or deny the Anointing's immediate Teaching , or Sufficiency to save them that believe in , and obey it : And because all are not converted , or come to this divine Unction within , or Dispensation of the New Covenant ; God hath been , and is pleased to make Use of such effectual Means , and to accommodate his divine Truth to mens low Capacities , by Preaching and Demonstration of the Spirit , as may be for their Help and Advantage , in order thereto : So that the Controversie is brought to this narow Compass , viz. our present Opposer pretends to own super-natural Revelation and divine Illumination ; but not now in an immediate Way , but only in a mediate Way of Preaching and Scripture . We own and assert divine Illumination and super-natural Revelation in an immediate Way ; as also , that God is pleased to make Use of such mediate Wayes and Means , as are attended with his Presence and divine Illumination , without which no outward Means can be effectual , or to any real Advantage to the Soul. This Opposer reckons that God operates now only in a mediate Way ; we own , that God works both immediately and mediately ; as also we assert , the sole Sufficiency of the Spirt's immediate Illumination and Teaching , both as the Ground of the Effectual Ministry , and of saving Knowledge to all that receive it , and attend upon it . And this is the direct and proper Way and Method of God's bringing Men to Salvation , as is assented to one while ; but another while , saving Illumination in an immediate Way , is denyed by this contradictory Opposer , p. 47. though in Contradiction to himself , again he confesseth , Christ is the Light of the World by his Spirit , by his Word , by his Works , both miraculous and exemplary , p , 48. whereby he hath granted Christ to be the Light of the World , both in an immediate & in a mediate Way : How then not in an immediate Way ( manifest Confusion ) And yet he charges us with abusing at unawares that first Chapter of John , ver . 9. And why so ? Because we own Christ to be that true Light that lighteth every Man that cometh into the World , in an immediate Way , which is no Abuse ; seeing , 1st , the very Life that was iin hm is the Light of men : 2dly , He attempts not to prove that men universally are lighted in such mediate Wayes , as he proposes ; as namely , by the Scriptures outward Teaching , Works and Example , seeing all men have not the Scriptures , and but few knew Christ's Works and Example . His Accusation of impertinently alledging of Joel 2. 28 , 29. cited by Peter , Act. 2. 17. Behold the Dayes come , saith the Lord , that I will pour out my Spirit upon all Flesh , &c. He convinceth us of no Impertinency herein , while from hence we assert this pouring out of the Spirit to be immediate ; as , I will pour out my Spirit , saith the Lord : Is not this immediate ( as done by himself ? ) But saith he : It is not to direct every one what to believe and do without outward Teaching ; but to qualifie Persons extraordinarily for outward Teaching : It is to enable them to prophesie , &c. p. 49. Hereby he hath confessed some Persons to be extraordinarily qualified for outward Teaching and enabled to prophesie by the Pourings out of the Spirit : It seems he owns the Teachers & Prophets to be immediately taught , but the Hearers may not ; so that from this Man's Method , the Danger of Enthusiasm is not in the Enthusiasts themselves , but in their ordinary Sort of Hearers or weak Christ●ans , as they are counted , whom he goes about to keep alwayes in that weak State , ever learning , and never allows them the Priviledge of their Teachers , that is , to be Teachers immediately illuminated and taught : And what is this , but to maintain a Trade of Preaching , that People may be alwayes paying ? which is not to desire , that all the Lord's People were Prophets ; nor , with Paul , to pray , that God would give them the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation in the Knowledge of Christ , Ephes. 1. 17. nor to bring People to the divine Anointing within , that is sufficient to teach them : Neither doth this man appear in the Apostle's Mind , who said , these things I write unto you , that you may have Fellowship with us ; and truly , our Fellowship is with the Father and the Son : Whereas this man's Method tends to keep the Hearers from this Fellowship , which is in the divine immediate Light of God and Christ. He seems highly to commend God's Way and Method of Salvation , as to the Plainness and Fulness of the Revelation thereof under the New Covenant , by which it is fitted to every Capacity , and the innate Goodness of the Laws thereof , fitted to attract and draw mens Wills to accept , embrace and chuse them . These sayes he , Are the Things , I conceive , foretold in that Prophecy , Jer. 31. cited in Heb. 8. under those Expressions of God's putting , giving or conveying his Laws into the Mind , and writing them in the Heart ; so that they shall not teach every Man his Neighbour , and every man his Brother , &c. p. 81. A plain and ample Confession , 1st , To the New Covenant and the innate Goodness of the Laws thereof : 2dly , To God's putting his Laws into the Mind , and writing them in the Heart : 2dly , So that they shall not teach every man his Neighbour , & every man his Brother . These are sufficient to overthrow all his Work against immediate Illumination , immediate Teaching and Revelation and his confining God's Method of Salvation now to a mediate Way of Teaching and Illumination . To his Addition , That it is not then said , that they shall not be taught neither by Apostles , Evangelists , Pastors or Teachers ; but they shall not teach every man his Neighbour , or every Man his Brother , p. 81. But who these Apostles , Evangelists , Pastors or Teachers are , that he would have us alwayes depend upon for outward or mediate Teaching , he does not shew us ; nor who they are that pretend to be such by Vertue of an immediate Call or extraordinary Qualification , which he hath seemed to grant before ( which surely comes not by Succession from men ) He does not tell us who he means , as thus called and qualified , as the true Apostles , Evangelists , &c. were , who were sent of God , and endued with divine Vertue and immediate Gifts for their VVork , which neither Baptist , Independent nor Presbyterian-Preachers do now pretend to , as heretofore , when they bore the Reproach of extemporary Praying and Preaching by the Spirit , for which they are yet reproached as Phanaticks , though undeservedly . However this man's VVork appears very lame , while he proclaims a mediate VVay of Teaching and Illumination by the Scriptures , Orall Tradition , and by Apostles , Evangelists , &c. p. 47 , 73 , 81. as God's Method unto Salvation ; and all this to oppose an immediate Way of Enlightning thereunto . Now suppose we should believe the former with him , in Opposition to the latter ; yet still he leaves us in the dark , and at a Loss , in not directing us to those Apostles , Evangelists , Prophets , Pastors and Teachers , truly qualified and called , as where , or among what People they are : As if he should tell us , that the VVay to Heaven , is , to follow certain Guides ; but not at all direct us where to find those Guides : But although we confess , that God doth with Power endue and send forth his Messengers to preach the Gospel ; yet this no VVay doth oppose his immediate Illumination & Teaching of his People , under the New Covenant , but is a lively Proof and Testimony thereof ; seeing they are immediately illuminated and inspired for that Work , and their Ministry received from the immediate Light and Teaching of God within , tends to direct men to him , that they may be taught of him ; and therein are helpful to men : in order to turn them from Darkness to the Light , which no wayes does imply any Defect in the Light within , but an Alienation in man's Mind , till he be converted ; for there can be no Defect or Insufficiency n God , because he maketh Use of apt Instruments , suited to mens VVeakness , and causeth his own VVorks to praise him ; for he will not have his VVorks idle and useless . Now the Difference between God's immediate Illumination or inward VVork of Power , and his working instrumentally by Ministers or Preaching , lyes here ; the one is the Cause , and the other an Effect ; the one is the absolute VVay or Rule of knowing God , and building up in his Knowledge ; the other a subordinate Help for Direction to that VVay and Rule : He who is the true Light lighteth every man that cometh into the VVorld : This is not said of his Ministers , but they are sent to direct & turn men's Minds to the Light : I will pour out my Spirit upon all Flesh , saith the Lord : But so is it not said of his Ministers , though they direct to wait for it , I will write my , Laws in their Hearts saith the Lord ; but the doing of this is not asscribed to his Ministers , though they bear witness therof : Ye have an Unction from the Holy One ; it is not said , Ye have it from the Ministers . though it attend their Ministry , and they are taught thereby , and direct others to it , and to abide in it : He that establisheth us with you in Christ , and hath anointed us , is God , who also worketh all our Works in us : It is not said , that his Ministers do so establish , anoint and work all in us , though they be instrumental in God's Hand , to direct men to God and Christ ( who is with them ) in whom is Life and Salvation , and from whom every good and perfect Gift comes ; and to whom be the Glory , and not to man. From all which let it be seriously minded ; First , The Eternal Word , which is the true Light , lighteth every man that cometh into the World , in an immediate Way . 2dly , That the Promise or more plentiful Effusion or Pouring forth of the Spirit , is also from God himself , and so in an immediate VVay to be made good and fulfilled unto them , who walk in and obey that Measure or Degree of his divine Light or immediate Inshining , as it is in their Consciences . 3dly , God also worketh savingly by his Spirit , Light and Power , in an immediate VVay , in the Hearts of his People , both by illuminating their Understanding , opening their spiritual Eyes , reviving their Souls , and delivering them from under the Power of Darkness & Sin , giving them Victory by Faith over Temptations , leading them through the spiritual VVarfare and Travils , and making them more then Conquerors , in all which they have their Dependnece immediately upon God , who is a present and immediate Help in Times of Trouble , as all that truly wait upon him in his immediate Light and Discoveries , do experience . Sect III. The Prophecy and Testimony of the New Covenant and Gospel-Dispensation rescued from our Opposer's Perversions . BUt to that Prophecy , They shall not teach every man his Neighbour , and every Man his Brother , &c. Jer. 31. This Opposer saith , Though the Phrase here used seem absolute in Sound , yet it may well be understood in a comparative Sense , bringing Instances , with his restrictive Meanings upon Joh. 6. 26. Hos. 6. 6. Ephes. 6. 12. upon the Particle [ Not ] as not so much , not only , wherein the plain Scripture is not his Rule , but his Meaning unfairly added to limit this Prophecy , besides the Extent of the VVords ; for saith he , p. 82. The Meaning may be , that they shall not so much need to do it , that is , teach every man under the second Covenant , as under the first ; yet he would have them alwayes teaching and al was learning , in a mediate VVay only . But indeed , saith he , the Words and Phrase used here , seem to be a Strain of Elegancy oft used in Scriptures , when to set forth the great Abundance and Plenty of Things , Expressions are used improperly and hyperbolically , in reference thereunto , and 〈…〉 e not to be understood properly , but figuratively . Observe here , serious Reader , that the plain Text of Scripture , fore-telling God's writing his Laws in the Hearts of his People , that they shall teach no more every man his Neighbour , and every man his Brother , saying , know the Lord , but all should know him : This he slightly turns off with this Meaning , or [ May be ] that they shall not so much need to teach every man his Neighbour , saying , know the Lord under the second Covenant as under the first ; yet implying , that they shall still much need to say , know the Lord under the New Covenant , though not so much as under the Old : But how agrees this with the plain VVords , I will be their God , and they shall be my People ; and they shall no more [ or they shall not ] teach every man his Neighbour , and every man his Brother , saying , know the Lord ; for they shall all know me , from the least to the greatest ? see Jer. 31. 33 , 34. Heb. 8. 10 , 11. But these Expressions , the man reckons , are used improperly and hyperbolically ; and what is his Rule for thus censuring the plain VVords of the Prophet and Apostle , and reflecting upon them , equally with us , as improperly proposing God's Method and New Covenant Way , to be his own immediate Teaching and Knowledge of himself , wherein they shall not teach every man his Neighbour ; and yet in Contradiction to himself hath confessed , That the Work of Grace in men is most properly attributed to God , to Christ , &c. p. 19. His Instances for such limited Meanings upon several Hyperbolical Expressions ( supposed ) in Scripture , if granted , prove not these very Texts so improper or hyperbolical as he renders them ; and he evinceth not what his Rule is for thus rendering these particular Texts improper and hyperbolical , which so plentifully make for God's immediate Way of Illumination , Teaching and VVorking under the New Covenant : If he say , other Instances of Scripture compared are his Rule herein ; I must deny that they prove these very Texts lyable to such an Exception or Limitation as he puts upon them : If he say that Reason is his Rule , then he owns another Rule , as Judge and Determiner of the Sense of the Scripture , then the Scriptures themselves : But if he pretend the Spirit to be his Rule in this , then the Scriptures are not : Howbeit , the Spirit will not contradict its own Sayings in the Scriptures ; and we do not own his limited Sense , Restriction , or private Interpretation of such an eminent Prophecy , as this of the New Covenant ; for no Prophecy of the Scripture is of any private Interpretation ; for the Prophecy came not in Old Time by the will of man , but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost . And they who deny the immediate Illumination therof , are not like , truly to understand those Prophecies and Scriptures that proceeded thence . And to his asking , Why we should so much as once imagine , that th●se Words of the Prophet should foretell , that under the New Covenant , there should be no need of teaching by man's Ministry , when the whole Current of the New Testament , both in Precept and Example , shew the contrary , p. 82 , 83. Which is as much as to say , that the whole Current of Scriptures of the New Testament shews , that there will be need under the New Covenant of Teaching by man's Min●sty , which is to allow the New Covenant no Preheminence above the Old ; for in the Time of the Old Covenant the Priests Lips were to preserve the Peoples Knowledge ( which yet was not exclusive of all immediate Teaching ) whereas in the Dispensation of the New , Christ is both our King , Priest and Prophet , who is given for a Covenant unto the People , for a Light unto the Gentiles , and to be God's Salvation unto the Ends of the Earth : Therefore to conclude , that there will be alwayes need of Teaching by man's Ministry under the New Covenant , is contrary both to the Tenour of the New Covenant the Tendence and End of Christ's Ministry ( Which was not of of man ) and to John's plain Testimony , Y● have an Unction from the Holy One , and ye know all Things ; the Anointing which ye have recived of him , abideth in you , and ye need not that any man teach you , but as the same Anointing teacheth you of all things , and is Truth and is no Lye ; and even as it hath taught you , ye shall abide in him . Mark here , he sole Sufficiency and Absoluteness of the Anointing to those who walk in the Light of it , and obey it . Sect. IV. Our Clearness from Error and Incongruity about the Light within , and our Opposer justly chargeable with both . IT is true , that we affirm the Light of Christ within to be an absolute Rule , teaching men that follow it what they ought to know , believe and do ; and that it is necessary to call upon Men to believe and obey it , forasmuch as many do not : But I must look upon this man's Inference upon us in this Case [ as supposing for Truth that which is a manifest , gross , and most dangerous and pernicious Error ] to be unjust , viz. That we suppose , it is not as well necessary to teach men by the Scriptures and by the Ministry to know and believe what is necessary to their Salvation , as it is to perswade them to do what is necessary therete , p. 83 , 84. Which falsly supposeth a Defect in the Light and in our Ministry , directing thereto : Whereas the Light of Christ is able to teach men , to know , believe , and do what is necessary to Salvation ( and to open the Scriptures ) as Christ said , Believe in the Light , that ye may be the Children of the Light. And how could they be such if the Light did not teach them , both to know , believe and practise what is necessary to Salvation ? yet that many men are not come into the Light , though it shine in their Darkness , is very plain , while they rebel against the Light , and know not the Wayes of it , because they abide not in the Paths of it : But what is this to those who are come into the divine Light , and holy Unction within ? As for his charging us with Incongruity of Opinion and Practice , dissembling the Matter , Tergiversatton and Shuffling , Inconsistency of Pretences and Practices , Pretences for a blind , a perfect Piece of — p. 93 , 94 , 95. What 's now the Matter , this man appears so envious and reviling ? where is the Incongruity ? but that men being taught of God himself by his Light and Spirit within , now und●r the New Covenant , need not be taught by men ; and yet for all that , we take upon us to teach the People our selves , p. 93. Here is no more Incongruity then in God's Teaching , both immediately and instrumentally , in both which his own Power appears and operates : We take not upon us to teach People our selves , nor to hold forth man's Ministry ; but Christ teacheth in us and by us ( also shewing forth his own Praise in a Testimony ) without him we can do nothing , and hi● Presence goeth along with us in a living Ministry , both to open the Scriptures , and to shew men their Duty , both in believing and obeying what is necessary : and so our Gospel is not of man , nor by man , but from Christ , and therefore not guilty of this man's unjust Imputation , either of pernicious Error or Incongruity . As for being against all other mens Teaching but our own , p. 94. And yet for the Teaching of the Light within : Unto this I say , we are satisfied that our Ministry is from God and his Light , and have no Reason to have any mens Teaching whatsoever imposed upon us , which does not flow from the Light , nor from God's immediate Inspiration and Teaching , which they opposing , their Ministry is but of man , and by the Will of man. And therefore it is no Inconsistency in our Principle and Practice to confess to the Teaching of Christ's Light within , and to teach others as that teacheth us , in order to turn them to the Light , that they may be taught , as we are ; and so to deny all meer mens Teaching , who are not taught by the Light within , but gain-say God's immediate Teaching in these Dayes , as this man doth ; who also falsly accuseth us with this Error , viz. That God doth by a Light , created in every man , sufficiently teach them what they ought to believe and do , p. 87. But this is his Mistake and false Foundation , on which much of his Structure is framed ; as also in p. 15. & p. 41 , 42. he takes it for granted , that 't is but a natural Light in men that we direct them to ; but this is contradicted by himself , in his confessing , That it is God , Christ , the holy Spirit , by immediate Illumination of our Minds , that doth shew us what we ought to believe and do ; and that this is our Notior , p. 13. But his is , not by God's immediate Teaching and Operation , p. 40. So , be sure , God was not with him , in his Study , as his Teacher , in bringing forth his Book against God's immediate Teaching and Operation : And the man is grosly mistaken , in concluding it to be a created , natural Light in man , whilst he confesseth , We ground our selves much upon Joh. 1. 9. where it is said of Christ , That was the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the World , p. 41. whereas that true Light was neither created nor natural , as a Thing made ; for in him was Life , and the Life was the Light of men , Joh. 1. 4. This Life was not created nor natural in that Sense , but supernatural and divine : However , this man gives us his Sense of this Scripture cited , viz. That Christ indeed as God , Creator , doth enlighten every man that comes into the World , with the Faculty of Reason and Understanding , by which he may know that there is a God , that he is to be worshipped , and that he is placable , and the Difference between moral Good and Evil in many things , p. 42. And this he calls Natural Light , supposing it sufficient to direct the Heathen to as much as God expects from them ; but not sufficient to direct those that live under the Gospel , to believe , and do what they are bound , viz. To believe , Jesus to be the Christ , the Son of God , and Saviour of the World , and that upon Pain of Damnation , p. 42. Serious Reader , Consider the Tendency and Import of these Things ; as , first , He grants , that Christ enlightens every man that comes into the World with such a Light , as that he may know that there is a God , that he is to be worshipped , and that he is placable : And 2dly , grants this , a Light sufficient to direct the Heathen to as much as God expects from them . And is not this then in order to Salvation ? If they obey what God expects from them , shall they not be saved ? See the man's Contradiction , having before denyed , that Christ lighteth every man , in order to his Salvation without outward Teaching ; when here it is granted , he enlightneth every man , even the Heathen , with a Light sufficient to direct them to as much as God expects from them : But 3dly , in calling this a natural , created Light , he egregiously errs ; for how should the Heathen or any man else , know that there is a God , that he is to be worshipped , and that he is placable , or be directed to as much as God expects from them , by that which is natural and created , when the Things of God are beyond the natural man's Reach and Understanding , and only to be discerned spiritually ? 4thly , Whereas this man supposeth two such different Lights from Christ in man , viz. the one which he calls the Faculty of Reason and Understanding in the Heathen , sufficient to direct them in the Knowledge and Worship of God , and to as much as he expect from them ; and the other in them that live under the outward Preaching of the Gospel ; the first saving only to the Heathen , the second only to the professed Christians ; the first sufficient to give the Knowledge of God and his Worship , the second the Knowledge of Christ and Salvation by him . I must deny his Distinction of two such Lights in men , as unscriptural an unsound ; and I must tell him , he hath brought us no Scripture-Proof to convince us thereof , that there are two such different Lights in man , thus limited or distinguished , the one as from God to Heathens , the other as from Christ to Christians ; and yet both directing to the same End , to wit , Salvation . This kind of mangled confus'd Work is fit to darken Peoples Minds from the Knowledge of God and Christ , and Salvation ; whereas that first Chapter of John is plain , without any such confused Distinction about the Light , or Division between God and Christ , as this man makes about the Light ; for there it is , In him was Life , and the Life was the Light of men , ver . 4. And that was the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the World , ver . 9. Mark here , this Life or Light of Christ is but one and the same forever , the Light of men throughout all Generations ; yea , he was that true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the VVorld , whose Life or Light cannot ( without Blasphemy ) be deemed natural and created : Besides , it appears gross Confusion and palpable Contradiction in this Opposer , to conclude that Light not sufficient to direct men to believe Jesus to be Christ , the Son of God , and Saviour of the VVorld , which yet is sufficient to direct the Heathen to as much as God expects from them , that is , to moral Goodness , to know and worship God ; and consequently , to lead them to Salvation ; for in every Nation , he that fears God and worketh Righteousness , is accepted : Now how they should know and worship God , and be saved , without some living Knowledge and Belief of his Son , Jesus Christ , I cannot see nor understand , since that by no other Name under Heaven can men be saved ; and he that believeth not the Son of God shall not see Life , but the Wrath of God abides on him , Joh. 3. 36. cited by this man , who also confesseth the Son of God to be the Saviour of the World , p. 42. Again , no man comes unto God , but by his Son , who is therefore universally held forth , and given for a Light to the Heathen , to be God's Salvation to the Ends of the Earth ; and it is the World's Sin that they believe not in the Son of God , and for this his Spirit reproves them . But since it is granted , that the Heathen by that Light of Christ in them , may know and worship God , and practice good Morality , and as much as God expects from them ; it s granted , that they may be godly , and serve God by the Light in them : but how any should be godly Men & no Christians , I must confess we are yet to seek , and not like to have any Scripture-Proof thereof from our Opposer , or any else of his Perswasion ; for it were as uncharitable to judge all void of Christianity , who have not the Name Christian , as it were untrue to reckon all Christians , who have but the Name and Profession of Christianity , seeing that it is not the Name or Profession outward that makes true Christians , but the divine Life , Power , Unction and Possession of the Nature of Christianity inwardly ; as he is not a Jew that is one outward , but he is a Jew that is one inward ; and Circumcision is that of the Heart in the Spirit , and not in the Letter . And as for this man's Knowledge of Christ , that he has by Oral Tradition , and that he reckons is derived down successively by outward Teaching without immediate Revelation or Illumination , p. 47 , 84. It is no living or saving Knowledge ; & such Method as this man proposes for the Knowledge of Christ ( as in Opposition to his Immediate Enlightning ) is not God's Means : He talks something like a Papist ; and his Work against immediate Illumination tends to divert peoples Minds from God's inward Illumination , and and from waiting for the Revelation of his Son in them : And what is this , but to lead People to be subjected under the Pope and Traditions , although many of the Church of Rome have confessed to the Truth of divine Illumination and immediate Inspiration more then this man hath done , though in Practice , she manifests her self to be both apostatized and estranged from the divine Light within . Sect. V. His silly Temporizing , in espousing the Hireling Priests Quarrel against us . AS to his wishing , That we did not give too much Occasion to suspect our Integrity , accusing us with making sad Out-Cries aginst the publick Ministry , one as well as another , without Distinction : and that we seek to make them odious to the People for their taking Money of them , as Rewaerd of their Labours ; and that we compare them with the false Prophets and bad Priests of old , of whom it is said , that the Priests preach for Hire , and the Prophets divine for Money ; and then he alledges the Priests under the Law taking Money or Moneys worth , as the Provision that God made for them , which was Tythes ; and saith he , when their Tythes were detained and kept back from them , God accounted himself robbed . To all which I answer , that we have great Reason to cry out against that Ministry and those Priests , who preach for Hire , Lucre , Tythes , or forced Maintenance , contrary to the Practice of Christ's Ministers , who as they did freely receive , did freely give : And such as preach for Hire , and force Maintenance , suing men at Law for Tythes , and imprison such as cannot for Conscience sake to Christ pay them Tythes : such Priests are unnatural and hard-hearted , not at all like Christ's Ministers , who coveted no man's Meat , nor Drink , nor Gold , nor Silver , nor Apparel ; but alas , these covetous Priests trouble and cumber men in Courts for Tythes , and cast men in Prisons and Holes , to the Ruin of many poor Families , and causing divers to suffer in Goals till Death , as they have done divers times for a small value ; these Priests value their Tythe-Pigs , &c. more then they do the Lives of innocent men : Oh unnatural , inhuman Hard-heartedness and Cruelty itself ; and oh gross Hypocrisie , for such as are guilty thereof , to call themselves Ministers of the Gospel & Messengers of Christ , who are thus unlike him and his Ministers ! As for those that robbed God in Tythes and Offerings ; these were in the time of the Law and first Covenant , when there was a Commandment from God for both , and to bring the Tythes to the Store-house , that the Fatherless , Widdows and Strangers might be relieved , as well as the Priests ; and they robbed God , who did not bring their Tythes to the Store-house . But Christ Jesus the everlasting Priest , is come , and hath changed the Priesthood that took Tythes , & made of Necessity a Change also of the Law , and a disannulling of the Commandment : See Heb. Chap. 7. But I shall say little here about this Oppression of Tythes ; let the Nation 's long Experience thereof speak , and I refer the Reader to these Treatises , viz. A. P. his great Case of Tythes , and F. Howgil's great Case of Tythes ; and so to consider the Rise and Continuance of them . And it is such Priests as this man himself declares against , that we disown ; as namely , such as are departed out of the Way and caused many to stumble , whom the Lord hath made contemptible and base before the People , who have not kept his Wayes , but have been partial , And so the false Prophets that have seen Vanity , and divined Lyes , saying , Thus saith the Lord , when God hath not spoken ( and these are highly guilty thereof , who now oppose God's immediate Inspeaking ) and have done so to get Peoples Money by pleasing them , in prophesying Peace to them , when the true Prophets prophesied of Judgment , and were persecuted for it , Ezek. 22. 25 , 28. But saith he , 'T is possible and too probable , that there may be some , who for Worldly and Fleshly . Respects may greatly fall short of a faithful Discharge of their Duty towards the Souls under their Charge : And if there be any , that by daubing with untempered Mortar , do betray them ; I am no Advocate for such , they shall bear their Burthen . And yet he is an Advocate for the Tyth-taking Priests and Ministers , who receive Money of the People , as a Reward of their Labours : And thus he varies , shuffles , wheels about and insinuates , like a man-pleaser and Temporizer ; one while he talk , like an Anabaptist concerning the Light within as natural , created ; and his tying up the Spirit 's Baptism to its Effusion in miraculous Gifts : Another while , like one turned back to the National Priests : Another while , like a Papist , or one popishly affected , for Oral Tradition and a Knowledge of Christ derived successively by outward Teaching from the first Preachers : Another while he talks like one Atheistical , in rendering that Light spoken of in Joh. 1. 9. ( which lighteth every man that cometh into the World ) but a natural Light and not sufficient for Salvation . But again , to what he grants of the Corruption of some publick Ministers , who are wordly and fleshly Daubers and Betrayers , I shall grant to what he further adds , That it is unreasonable and Unchristian to condemn the Righteous with the Wicked , and to censure all for somes sake : This indeed were unchristian , but unjustly cast upon us , p. 92. Howbeit , I shall proffer him fairly , that if he can shew us such Ministers , as are Righteous , men fearing God and hating Covetousness , that teach the same Doctrine the Apostles taught , which the Light of Christ within witnesseth to , p. 88. And that can prove their Call & Authority to preach , to be from Christ , and that approve themselves as his Ministers , in all Humility and Faithfulness , we shall own them ; but while we do not find such among the publick Parish Priests and Ministers , who force Tythes and Hire from People ; we ought not to be blamed for our Separation from them . Sect. VI. Our Opposer's Confusion and self-Contradictions collected and examined . THis Opposer of Enthusiasm hath run himself into manifest Contradictions , whereof these following are some . He seems to plead for Christ's injoyning his Followers to be humble and lowly in Heart , to esteem others better then themselves , to speak Evil of no man , in Meekness to instruct , to overcome Evil with Good , and not to judge , and the like , p. 6. And yet in Contradiction to himself , he takes upon him to judge and vilifie us , to speak Evil of us ; yea , to have been walking in Darkness , and to be but carnal , &c. p. 9. Doth he not here judge ? That all the Children of God are taught of God , and need not any other Teacher . This our Sense and Method he opposeth to God's Way , as being quite different , p. 14. And saith , that God's Way and Method of directing men what to believe and do , is not by his immediate Teaching and Operation , p. 40. But in plain Contradiction to himself , he confesseth , That the Scripture attributes it ( to wit , the Work of saving Grace ) to God , to Christ , to the holy Spirit , p. 18. and saith , Indeed the Work of saving Grace in men is most PROPERLY attributed to God , to Christ , p. 19. That the Light , mentioned Joh. 1. 9. which lighteth every man that cometh into the World , doth enlighten men by natural Light ; and that Christ , as God , doth enlighten every man that cometh into the World with the Faculty of Reason , and affords no other Light to the Heathen , then this natural Light , as he calls it , p. 41 , 42. Yet in plain Contradiction , he grants , That the Scripture speaks of Christ's being [ in ] men ; and Christ and God every where present , and se in all men , and that the essential Presence of Christ , as God , is present to every man , p. 20 , 21. Observe Reader , how plainly he has broke the Neck of his Cause here : For if Christ , as God , be essentially present in all men , and to every man , and this God be Light , then the Light that is in every man is not natural nor created , as he hath affirmed the Light of Christ , as God , to be : And as for his Distinction between the essential Presence of Christ and his virtual Presence , p. 20 , 21. it is unscriptural : Neither can we believe , that the Presence of God and Christ are so distinguished or divided , as this man implies , viz. That God's essential Presence should be in all men , and yet not Christ's virtual Presence : VVhat Scripture hath he for these Words ? Is there any Virtue in Christ's Presence , that is not in God's Presence ? Is not the Father , Son and Holy Spirit one Being , though different as to Relation and Degrees of Manifestation ? But how plainly contradictory is it , one while to confess Christ's being in men , his essential Presence , as God , to be in all men ; and yet that his Light in the Heathen ( or greatest Part of men ) is natural and created . O monstrous Inconsistency ! He affirms , that the Form of Doctrine delivered to the Christians , to wit , the Scriptures , was to be the Rule of Faith and Christian Practice , to rule and govern themselves by , p. 22 , 23. And yet confesseth , That those who are sincere , make it their dayly Care and Endeavour , to walk according to the Light and Guidance of that Rule that hath its Seat in their Conscience , p. 40. Observ. Here he has found another Rule then the Scripture , to wit , the Light in the Conscience : Though it is true , the Apostles Doctrine contains Rules ; but the Light within that gave it forth , was The Rule , the Chief or Highest Rule , for Guidance and Power , and that wherein was the Power of Rule and Government to all true Christians . He gives this Judgment against us , viz. That in Truth there is no Light in us , how much soever we vainly boast of it , he sayes , p. 40. And yet hath confessed , That the essential Presence of Christ , as God , is in all men ; and that Christ doth enlighten every man with a Faculty of Reason or natural Light : by which he hath acknowledged some Light to be in every man , though it is true , they that speak not according to the Word , it is because there is no Morning in them ; yet it follows not , that there is no Light at all in them ; for there may be some Light in them before the Morning . Upon Joh. 1. 9. he saith , that there is no such thing , as that Christ so enlightens all men ( as with what he ought to believe and do , in order to his Salvation ) without outward Teaching , can be proved , p. 41. And yet confesseth , That Christ indeed , as God , doth enlighten every man , by which he may know , that there is a God , that he is to be worshipped , that he is placable ; and that this may be a Light sufficient to direct the Heathen , to do as much as God expects from them , if they live up to it . But in Contradiction again , He calls this a natural Light , not sufficient , &c. p. 42. Observ. What! A Light sufficient to give the Knowledge of God and his Worship , & that he is placable , and to direct the Heathen to as much as he expects from them , and yet not sufficient to enlighten men with a Knowledge of what they ought to believe and do , in order to Salvation ? Is not this palpable Contradiction , That Men may by the Light within be directed to acknowledge and worship God , and to as much as he expects from them ; and yet not be saved ? These can never hold together any more then that the Light in the Heathen may be sufficient to direct them to as much as God expects , and yet not to believe in his Son for Salvation , according to pag. 42. As if God did not require all men to believe in his Son , when their not believing in him is the very thing for which his Spirit reproveth the World of Sin ; and he that believeth not in the Son of God is condemned already , because he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the Condemnation , that Light is come into the World , and men love Darkness rather then Light , because their Deeds are Evil , Joh. 3. 18 , 19. So that it is evident ; That Light is come into the World , that men may believe in the Name of the Son of God , and escape Condemnation . Again , he errs in saying , Paul knew of no such Way to propagate the Faith ( as immediate Revelation , and inward Teaching of the Light within ) after it was once set on foot in an extraordinary Way , p. 46. And this he hath contradicted , in his confessing , That the Work of Grace in men , is most properly attributed to God , to Christ ; and that the Scripture attributes it to God , to Christ , to the holy Spirit , p. 18. And also he had , almost granted , that the holy Spirit may be communicated to men by immediate Revelation , p. 28. Observ. So then God may and doth work by his immediate Power and Spirit , for the begetting men into the true Faith , and it is only this Spirit , immediately attending true Ministers , that maketh their Preaching effectual for the turning men to the Word of Faith in their Hearts . Whereas the Tenour and Stress of this man's Work is against Enthusiasm in the best sense , even against being savingly illuminated in an immediate way ; and saith , that the plentiful Effusion of the Spirit is far from giving any Countenance to our Opinion of the Spirit 's being given to teach men immediately by internal Illumination , pag. 60. And on John 16. 13. he accounteth that this is not a Promise to guide all Christians by its immediate Motion , but a Promise to his Apostles , pag. 61. And yet in Contradiction to himself in this , and in Concession to the Truth , he in words assents to the Operation of God's Grace and good Spirit , pag. 15. And that men are said in Scripture to be born of the Spirit , to be born of the immortal Seed of the Word , pag. 18 , 19. But then he is nconsistent again , in accounting these different Causes , he hath also confessed the essential Presence of Christ as God , to be in men , p. 20. And that in Revel . 2. & Chap. 3. it is seven times said , He that hath an Ear let him hear what the Spirit saith to the Churches , p. 27. And that Christ's Ministers are Ministers of the New Testament ; not of the Letter , but of the Spirit , p. 33. That he accompanies their Ministration with the Presence of his Grace and Power , p. 38. And also he asserts to the inward Assistance of his Spirit , p. 41. And saith , It is the Spirit that beareth witness , because the Spirit is Truth , p. 55. And on 1 Joh. 2. Ye need not that any man teach you , but as the same Anointing teacheth you ; he grants that the Apostle's Meaning must be , That they needed not from him , or any other man any teaching , that could give them greater Assurance of any thing then that Anointing gave them of Jesus his being the Christ , and of the Truth of that Doctrine ; that Anointing being God's Witness from Heaven , pag. 68. And that the Spirit doubtless is not wanting to assist the sincere Endeavours of men , in searching after the Sense of the Scriptures , p. 69. Howbeit , for men to be guided by the internal Teachings of the Spirit , without outward Teaching , this he calls our Wild Notion ; And yet citeth Rom. 8. 14. As many as are led by the Spirit of God , they are the Sons of God , p. 71. And Gal. 5. 18. If ye are led by the Spirit , ye are not under the Law , p. 73. And Paul exhorted , Eph. 2. Be filled with the Spirit , in order to their speaking to themselves in Psalms , and Hymns , and spiritual Songs , Ephes. 5. 18 , 19. p. 74. And he cites Acts 26. 17 , 18. viz. Unto whom I now send thee , to open their Eyes , and to turn them from Darkness to Light , p. 85. Now I ask ; If this Darkness was not within , that they were to be turned from ? And if this Light , they were to be turned to , was not also within in some Degree , and that in an immediate VVay ? And also , Did not the Apostle turn the Gentiles to the Light , that they might receive Forgiveness of Sins , and an Inheritance among them that are sanctified by Faith that is in Christ ? Further , he confesseth to the Truth in these words , If all good Christians then had been guided by an infallible Light within , they would not have needed to have bin taught and re-taught what were the first Principles of the Oracles of God , as some of them were , Hebr. 5. p. 105. Is it not plain here , that he hath placed the Fault or Deficiency upon those that needed so to be taught , as being awanting to themselves ( not following the Infallible Light within ) and not upon the Light it self ? but justified it as a sufficient Rule and Teacher ; and that they that are guided by it need not mens Teaching . And he also confesseth , That the Humble God will teach , and the Meek he will guide in Judgment , Psal. 25. And also , that the Spirituality of Christians is such , that they are Partakers of the spiritual and divine Nature , or Likeness to Jesus Christ in Purity , in Lowliness , Humility , Meckness , and in Love to God , and Charity to men , in Peace and Gentleness , in Contempt of the World , &c. on the Account of which spiritual Qualifications Christians are said to be one Spirit with Christ ; and by this Spirit and Temper we know that we dwell in him , and he in us ; and if any man have not the Spirit of Christ in some measure , he is none of his , pag. 119. Is not this a plain Confession to the Immediateness of Christ's In-dwelling in us ? And does not he then teach us by himself immediately ? It is also confessed , We are also exhorted in a due Sence of our own Weakness and Insufficiency , and of the great Need we have of the constant Assistance of God's holy Spirit in all , to make instant and important Supplication to God for it , p. 122. Here he plainly grants to the Necessity of Divine Inspiration and immediate Assistance of God's holy Spirit ; which plainly overthrows and confuteth the Body of his Work to the contrary . And further observe , that in his Postscript he confesseth , That he hath not so plainly represented the Nature of Faith , which is the condition of the New Covenant ; and that he that Believes and considers Christs Doctrine , must needs be under the Influence of the most powerful Motives to Repentance of a bad , and lead a good Life : And that Faith works that Change in men , by which they become new Creatures , are born of God , and sanctified ; and that it doth evidence to the Soul of things not seen ; and that a Believer is described by his coming to Christ , John 6. 35. For mens coming to learn of him is the Effect of their believing him to be the Son of God ; and Believers are described by the Receiving of Christ , John 1. 12. As many as received him , to them he gave Power to become the Sons of God , even to them that believe on his Name ; and that Believers are described by their trusting in Christ or relying on him , Eph. 1. 12. p. 135. Now mark , serious Reader , how he has confessed to the Truth of Believers coming to Christ to learn of him , receiving Christ , trusting in , and relying on Christ : And what is this but a Confession to a Believer's immediate Enjoyment of Christ himself , and his immediate Teaching and Assistance : For if men come to Christ , to learn of him , or be taught by Christ himself ; is not this immediate , and the End of Outward Teaching , to those that come to this Blessed Attainment : See how the man hath justified that Enthusiasm ( as he calls it ) which he he hath bestowed so much Pains against . Now Reader , by this time thou mayst see where the Stress of the Controversie consists , and that it is not about the word [ Enthusiasm ] but about the Doctrine of God's Immediate Way of Enlightening & Working ; which this man in a Way of Opposition is pleased to term Enthusiasm , and the Quakers , Enthusiasts , for owning that Doctrine . Some other more particular Fling sand Groundless Objections he has against us of less moment , which I pass by as Trifles not deserving my Time and treating about . G. W. A Postscript by another Hand . ENthusiasm all along used by Plutarch in Discourse about Apollo's Nu●n or Prophetess ceasing to give Oracles in Verse , and about the ceasing of Oracles , which was in his time , about Anno 100. after the Apostle John's Decease ; this word Enthusiasm he uses to that Divination and Inspiration , which the Heathen Oracles gave through their Priests . Clemens Alexandrinus writes , that in his time , which was almost 200 years of Christ , Divine Inspiration was in their Assemblies : For in his 3d Book of his Paedagogu● , cap. 11. thus he complains of some , who did not abide in that which they had tasted in the Assembly , nor walk in it , and worthy of it , or else dissembled it ; saith he , These putting away the inspired Thing ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) of the Congregation , after their Departure thence , are like them with whom they converse ; or else they are found to be such as they were not thought to be . Eusebius , lib. 9. Eccl. Hist. saith , Prophecying continued till Constantine's time , which was above the 300 year . of Christ his words are these , If any man inspired by the Grace of God should speak unto the People , they all with great Silence , fixing their Eyes upon him , gave such Attention , as if he had brought them some Errand from Heaven . See Jacob Acontius , Satan's Stratagems , p. 128. The same Clem. Alex. saith , Stromat . lib. 5. Exod. 33. Moses saith , Shew me thy self ; evidently noting , that God cannot be taught to men , nor expressed by words to men ; but that he can only be known by that Power which is of himself . The same , lib. 2. cap 4. Paedagog . saith , Before sleep it is a holy thing to give Thanks to God , as enjoying his Bounty and Favour , so as we go to sleep divinely inspired . The word is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 divinely , inwardly ; for he is a Greek Writer . Of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contracted is made 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whence comes the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Enthusiasm , not Enthysiasm , as it is in the Latin Dictionary , of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is another word signifying sacrificing . I have found where the Mistake is by s●arching the Greek ; so it must be written Enthusiasm . There was a Sect called Enthusiasts , which Theodoret speaks of in his 4 Book of his Ecclesiastical History . The word in the Scripture is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , theopneustos ; the Scripture is called so , 2 Tim. 3. 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , graphe theopneustos , Scripture breathed of God ; scriptura a deo spirata . Spencer of Prophecy , p. 110. A Synod in Germany , called on purpose against vulgar Prophecies , declined it , saying , Yet no Church , or Consistory , or University had altogether rejected or condemn'd such kind of new Prophecys ; and why would we be first ? Cyprian . Epist. 71. saith , Many things are better revealed to several . Clemens Hom. a very ancient Book in the primitive Times , sayes , That Operation is more certain then Vision , see p 726 , 728. See Book of Martyrs , 2 volumn , of the Prophecy of Huss ; and certain others in the History of Luther . 3 vol. of Dr. Sands , John Rogers , &c. John Fox himself touching the Lady Hennage's Recovery ; see his Life . Bishop Jewel fore-told the Reformation , Bp. Ridley's Burning , & his own Sickness , & then the precise day of his death ; see his Life . THE END Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65864-e130 Joh. 6. 45. p. 24. p. 5. p. 123. pa. 24. p. 15 , & 41 , 24 , 33. pa. 79. p. 80. p. 42. p. 76. p. 98. p. 110. * So there is a Spiritual Baptism ; and an Eating and Drinking with Christ in his Kingdom . ‖ See Isaiah 53. 10 , 11. Psalm . 22. 30. Jo. 6. 39. Gal. 3. 16. & 4. 19. Act. Mon. v. 1. f. 593. * These are also said to be the Words of Pope Urban , pleaded by Jo. Huss . P. 47 , 61. John 1. 4. 9. 2 Cor. 4. 6. Notes for div A65864-e1560 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; affler numine , an Inspiration . Entheatus , numine afflatus ; 〈…〉 , in quo Deus est , ab 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 et 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Deus , Divine inspir'd . See the Copious Dictionaries . * Where hath he a Scripture for God's Teaching in Person ? Unsavoury Expressions , not according to sound Words . * He had almost said Truth . p. 88 , 89 , 90 , 91. Mal. 3. 8 , 9 , 19. Deut. 14. 28 , 29 : p. 90 , 91. p. 91. p. 41 , 86 , 87. p. 56. p. 88 , 89 , 90 , 123. p. 47. 84. p. 41 , 42. Note , That mens not believing in the Sou , and their rejecting his light within , are equivalent , & bothtend to the same End 
A65867	----	The glory of Christ's light within expelling darkness being the sum of the controversie between the people called Quakers, and some of the non-conformist priests, as manifest at two publick disputes in Essex : between George Whitehead (called a Quaker) and Stephen Scandret (Presbyter) being at the latter dispute assisted with five more of his brethren, the priests, to wit, Nathaniel Barnard, Henry Havers, Henry Coleman, Nath. Ball, and Robert Billoes : wherein are several. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1669 Approx. 103 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 24 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65867 Wing W1930 ESTC R39125 18216695 ocm 18216695 107193 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65867) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 107193) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1136:16) The glory of Christ's light within expelling darkness being the sum of the controversie between the people called Quakers, and some of the non-conformist priests, as manifest at two publick disputes in Essex : between George Whitehead (called a Quaker) and Stephen Scandret (Presbyter) being at the latter dispute assisted with five more of his brethren, the priests, to wit, Nathaniel Barnard, Henry Havers, Henry Coleman, Nath. Ball, and Robert Billoes : wherein are several. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 47 p. s.n.], [London : 1669. Place of publication suggested by Wing. Imperfect: Stained, with print show-through. Errata: p. 47. Reproduction of original in the Union Theological Seminary Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. 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Dissenters, Religious -- England. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2005-01 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE GLORY of CHRIST's LIGHT WITHIN Expelling DARKNESS : Being the sum of the Controversie between the People called Quakers , and some of the Non-conformist Priests , as manifest at Two Publick Disputes in Essex ; Between George Whitehead ( called a Quaker ) and Stephen Scandret ( Presbyter ) being at the latter Dispute assisted with five more of his Brethren , the Priests , to wit , Nathaniel Barnard , Henry Havers , Henry Coleman , Nath. Ball , and Robert Billoes . Wherein are several weighty Matters and Principles discussed , to inform and undeceive the deceived , that they may know the Truth as it is in Jesus , which is really desired By us who are Lovers of Truth , and Well-wishers to our Enemie's Souls , Robert Ludgater , William Allen , John Furly , John Childes , Giles Barnadiston , George Whetherley Whereunto is added a Brief and Scriptural Examination of that private Principle of a Personal Election and Reprobation of certain definite numbers from Eternity ; wherein that ridged Spirit ( that denies Grace to be free for all men ) is detected , By G. Whitehead . Evil men and Seducers wax worse and worse . Printed in the Year , 1669. A Narrative to Professors and Followers of Presbyterian Priests , and others concerned . ALthough perverse Disputes of men of corrupt minds are things neither desirable , nor pleasing to us ; yet when such men do appear with impudence , and open face , against the Precious and Living Truth professed by us , we are necessitated to appear on Truth 's behalf , and to stand up for the Lord in these weighty matters ; as namely , on the behalf of his Universal-Love , and Free-Grace to mankind , therein we bearing witness unto that true Light of his , within and the sufficiency of it both as Rule and Guide in the Way to Salvation , and in vindication of this true Light which enlightens every man coming into the World , as also for the Power and Work of Christ in his restoring and freeing man , perfectly , out of Sin and Death ; for this ( through his Grace ) we are engaged to appear against the Devil and Darkness , and against all his sinfull Agents and Messengers , who dispute against the sufficiency of the Light of Christ that is in every man , and against Perfection being attainable in this life , wherein they do but contend for the Devil , Error , Darkness , and the works thereof , and so against God , his Truth , Free-Grace , and his Work , whom we desire ever to serve and testifie to . And now , as to the occasion of our having thus to do with this Stephen Scandret , and some of his Brethren ; the two Disputes ( as they were deemed ) that were between him and our Friend George Whitehead , were chiefly occasioned by the said S. S. and some of his Hearers and Benefactors , both proffering and urging for dispute ; it appears that some of his Hearers had in that matter better conceits of him then he deserved , as judging him a man of competent parts and abilities for that purpose ; as also probably supposing that his Cause on Principles had had such Truth in them , that they should have had the more power and prevalency with them to have stood the trial better then they did . As for the first Dispute on the 20th of the 11th moneth ( 68 ) it was managed with more calmness and moderation on S. S. his part than the latter , excepting that many times he would interrupt when an answer was a giving , and at the latter end he broke off to be gone , in such an abrupt manner , that as he occasioned some disorder , leaving some false insinuations against us , implying , as if we did not own the Righteousness of Christ for Justification , &c. without staying to receive answer thereto , which tended to stir up the ruder sort against us : Howbeit , the Controversie having been managed before with some moderation , this S. S. ( as no doubt , being then under some conviction ) was forc'd to confess to several truths which G. W. urged : As first , ( after he had asserted the Scriptures to be the only Rule of Life ) he confessed , that the Light within was a spiritual Light , and the Light of the Spirit of God , that every one is enlightened with . Secondly , That this Light many have who have not the Scriptures . Thirdly , That this Light within might , through the blessing of God , with a good improvement , save them that have not the Scriptures ; So that to his own confutation , he did herein confess to the Light within , as being more universal than the Scriptures . And in his confessing this Light within to be Spiritual , or a Light of the Spirit of God , he hath flatly contradicted his denying the Light within to be saving ; and in divers other things , at the other Dispute , he did manifestly contradict himself , and yet would not appear to see or confess his Error , when several times urged upon him at the Dispute : Howbeit , afterwards he writ a Paper to G. W. wherein he confessed himself defective in the Disputation ; howbeit , ( as appeared upon some of his Hearers pressing him for a second Disputation , as also being reflected upon by some of the professing Party , who reported , that he had given away their Cause ) he himself writ , and pressed several times upon G. W. for another Dispute , using very smooth words ; as , Beloved Friend , I am willing again to meet you in a friendly and amicable manner to dispute ; but at this last Dispute all his pretended amity and friendship was turned into enmity , railing , interruptions and disorderly proceedings , not at all like a man either serious , or composed in his mind for to mannage a Dispute , nor yet moderately to search into matters . To his earnest urging to a second Dispute to be on the 25th or 30th of March , G. W. could not then lay aside his occasions to attend upon him at that time , but rather endeavoured to perswade this his ( more forward and confident , then prudent ) Antagonist to weigh the business a little longer , that he might forbear pressing such a thing , until the Lord should order his coming from London into this Country ; George proposing these things following to his consideration , in the mean time a little to quiet him , as in his Letter to S. S. in these words , ( viz. ) Seeing that thou dost appear as one so willing and forward in this case to gratifie the peoples desires , I judge it meet that thou take the matter into more serious consideration , before there be a positive conclusion between us of the time and place for such a meeting ; as first , to mind , that Sectaries ( among whom thou and I , with our Friends are numbred ) have their present Liberty and Meetings rather by connivance , then by Law or Tolleration granted by the present Power ; so that if occasion of provocation should be taken at such Meeting or Meetings , we must consider aforehand what in probability may be the issue . Secondly , I have not observed those Leaders of the People of thy perswasion to be so forward or ready to suffer imprisonment and exile in Stormy Times , as many of us , or our Friends have done , that now you should seem to be so forward to make a flourish , and perk up so high in a time of Calm , unless you were resolved to stand a Storm with us ; however , prudence in these matters would become all , &c. howbeit , G. W. did signifie , that he was not unwilling , in the Lord's Will and time , both to answer the will and desires of moderate people in the case , as also to stand up for God and his Truth , as required by him , or necessitated upon such occasions being put upon him , ( withal urging , that S. S. would engage there should be no Tumult nor Disturbance made against us ) but when S. S. saw that G. W. could not meet him so soon as he desired , he seemed to be the more urgent for a second Dispute , and so writ again for that end , probably thinking , either that that might excuse him to his Hearers , if George should not meet him ; or else , if he should , that he might amend his matter , and salve up the sore wherein he was defective before ; [ though he has more marred his work , and stained his credit at the last dispute , in the eyes of all moderate people , then ever before ; for his confessing to several Truths at the former Dispute , though to the breaking the neck of his and his Brethrens corrupt Cause , was better resented by all indifferent Auditors , then his insolently opposing and gainsaying the Truth in a most irregular manner at the last Dispute , as one resolved both to stop his ears , and shut his eyes against plain demonstration and conviction , as also to hinder the People from hearing the Truth , by his frequent interruptions , when answers should have been given ; being , with his Assistant Nathaniel Barnard , resolved to bawl and make a noise when any thing of Truth was like to pinch them , or inform the people against their Errors and Corruptions . ] But notwithstanding all this Scandret's pressing for this second Dispute , when he was sent to by John Childe and Joseph-Smith , upon G. W. his order , to inform him of George's being in the Country , as also of his willingness to meet him for a Dispute ; also , George writ several times to him upon his seeming to evade disputing , because that George at first took not notice of his propositions ; [ he having pretended , that it was in love to Christ , in love to Truth it self , and in good will to Souls that he would dispute again ; though he would have shuffled it off when it came to trial ] whereupon he used these words in his Letter to George ; ( viz. ) Who would come over the threshold to Discourse with such a one ? I do still look upon you to deny to dispute with me ; thus he both slighted him , and uttered falshood , for George did not deny to dispute , though he could not joyn with him in prayer , which was one of his main Propositions , in these words , I shall still urge , that we begin with solemn Prayer , wherein none of us could joyn with him , judging it a very unreasonable thing in him to impose any such thing upon us , while we are so opposite and contrary in our spirits and principles to him and his Brethren ; for there cannot be a real joyning in worship , where there is not an union in Principle ; though the Duty of Prayer , it self , we really own , where it is perform'd and brought forth in the Spirit of Truth , and from its immediate teachings and motions . Now when S. S. saw that this Proposition could not be assented to , he stood peremtorily upon other two , which were in these words , ( viz. ) That you speedily and expresly consent , under your hand , the Dispute shall not hold above five or six hours in a day . Secondly , That what Question be asked , pertinent to the point in hand , it be answered by affirming or denying of it expresly , if it be capable of such an answer , &c. to which G. W. returned this answer ; ( viz. ) as for thy two demands which thou art so peremtory in ; to the first I say , Thou art left to thy liberty to cease disputing when five or six hours are out , provided thou dost not break of abruptly , to a disturbance , as before . To the second , I do intend , according to my understanding , to be as positive and intelligent in my answers to questions pertinent , as I can , and in my answers to signifie an affirmation or denial , if the question be capable of such an answer : upon which the time and place for the meeting ( which was on the first day of the fifth Moneth 1669. ) was prefixt in the same Answer by G. W. which S. S. could not well evade . As for the manner of this S. Scandret , and those his Brethren that assisted him , their behaviour and mannagement of the second Dispute , on their parts , it was quite contrary to what he proffered and pretended in his Letters before ; for he had pretended to meet and dispute in an amicable and friendly manner ; as also , that equal liberty should be granted to each party to explain their sence ; but instead thereof , there were frequent noises , interruptions on his and their parts , when things should have been explained on our parts ; as first , when our Friend James Parks was exhorting the people to Christian moderation and sobriety , which was before this S. S. was come into the Meeting to dispute , Nathaniel Barnard ( Priest ) being a proud vapouring Fellow , stood up in a frothy scornfull spirit , and interrupted James in his speaking , making a bawling noise , to stop the peoples ears from hearing the Truth declared ; and after some little progress was made in the Dispute with S. S. his manner also was , to make a noise and a bawling , freequently interrupting G. W. when he should have explained his answers , and sence , frequently using these words to George ( viz. ) a trifle , a trifle , a trifle , you ramble , you ramble , you ramble , &c. when he was neither able to make replication , nor render a reason against what George had urged in his answers ; and it was usual with this S. S. when he could not reply , to keep a noise in that manner ; also using these words , if you dare , if you dare ; as when he had affirmed the Scriptures to be the only Rule of Life , and the full Rule to guide us to Heaven and Glory , he would add , affirm the same of the Light within if you dare ; and would be daring often to stop the Peoples ears , and to stop an answer from being given , and this was his manner often times ; and when we both durst , and positively did affirm the same of the Light of Christ within , that it is a sufficient Rule , &c. he would continue his bawling , several times , and either say , you dare not , you dare not , or if you dare ; and being willing to pass over the questions about the only Rule , and the Light that is in every man , he run to his fifth question , about Baptism with water , whether it be an Ordinance of Christ ? but G. W. pressed and desired that the question about the Light might be more fully discust , which S. S. refusing , George desired to know first , in what capacity he stood for Water Baptism ; whether as a Popish Priest , or an Episcopal Priest , or as a Non conformist Presbyterian Priest , or a Baptist ? seeing that all these pretended Water Baptism , but differed greatly about it ; some being for sprinkling Infants , others for plunging Believers ; therefore we urged to know whether he own'd Infants or Believers to be the subjects of this Baptism ; but neither would he or his Brethren pitch upon , nor give an answer , though George , many time proffered to dispute either of them , which he would pitch upon , but S. S. durst not stand to either , as a man affraid either to maintain or contradict his own practice , ( viz. ) Sprinkling Infants ; and instead of being ingenious in this matter , he made a bawling noise , crying out , it s with water , water , water ; and calling out against us , you Rebels , Rebels , Rebels , go baptize you Rebels , for many times together , appearing then rather like one of Bedlam , then either a Minister , or a sober man ; and thus he manifested his deceit and hypocrisie , and breach of promise in railing and reviling us : And now , where was his amity , and friendliness , and the equal liberty he proposed in his Letter to G. W. dated from Haverill , Febr. 12. ( 68 ) But it was observed how well these Priests were furnished with strong Liquor , when they were at the dispute , which they often made use of to keep up their spirits for their work ; as when S. S. had spent himself a while , that he must be fain to go to the Bottle , then that proud scornfull Fellow Nathaniel Barnard he would stand up , and make a bawling , till he must be fain to get to the Bottle also ; and thus they were fain to relieve one another ; this S. S. and N. B. being as the mouthes of the rest , but chiefly S. S. who making such a hidious noise and bawling , and so often crying out water , water , as also using these words , You Rebels , you Rebels , go baptise you Rebels ( and that Priest Bernard bawling his story over and over , ) ( not like sober or ingenious men , but more like men infatuated ) but Henry Havers , and the other three , they behaved themselves more soberly then either S. S. or N. B. though they took their part , and all brought shame and disgrace upon themselves by suffering such a shallow bragging and vapouring man as S. S. ( who shewed himself in his Ribbonds like a Fiddler ) to be their mouth , and to mannage their cause , as if he were their Chieftain , and over them all . Again , When he stated a Question , or read an Argument ( for he had his Arguments patch'd up aforehand in papers ) which was not capable of a direct answer , by affirming or denying presently , he would not admit of an explanation of it , but would cry , affirm or deny ; and if at any time , in the first place , any thing was affirmed or denied , he would not suffer us further to render a reason , but make a noise to stop the Truth ; and when any of us granted to a question , according to Truth , he would turn up his eyes and thank God , as if he had wrought some great conviction upon us ; whereas , what we either affirmed or granted , we did not learn of him , but spoke the naked truth , as we had it of the Lord before ; as for instance , after this S. S. had affirmed the Scriptures , which are the Writings , to be our only Rule of Life , which being denied by us , that the Writings abstractivly can be the only Rule , because the Spirit of Truth is said to guide into all Truth ; hereupon he confest that it was not the Scriptures abstractively that he meant to be the only Rule , but the Will of God contained , or declared of in the Scriptures ; where , though he manifestly contradicted himself , yet , when we granted , that the Will of God declared of in the Scriptures is the Rule , which Will is , that we should follow the Light within ; hereupon this S. S. would again turn up the white of his eyes , and thank God that we granted to this Truth , though it was so apparently contradictory to his error , who went about to set up the Scriptures as the only Rule , and to cause people to turn their Backs upon the Light within , telling them , You must follow the Scriptures , for they will lead you to Heaven and Happiness , but you must turn your backs upon the Light within as not sufficient ; and yet at another time , again was necessitated to confess , That it is by the spiritual enlightning of the understanding that the Scriptures are understood ; so that here the spiritual Light in the understanding was the Rule to know the Scriptures , so by his own confession they could not be the only Rule , but the Spirit or Light that gave them forth , and gives the understanding of them , hath the preserment and preheminence of them . Besides , what great Hypocrisie and Dissimulation for these Presbyterian Priests thus to pretend the Scriptures to be the sole , absolute , or universal Rule , when they do not really so own them ; neither are they their Rule , while they put their meanings , false interpretations and glosses upon them , many times contrary to the very intent of Scripture , when it goes positively against their Principle , whereby they will either make themselves the Rule over the Scriptures , or else tell us that it hath another meaning or signification in the original , and so dare not stick to plain Scripture as their Rule when they are brought to trial , and this is their course from time to time to keep people in blindness and ignorance , when they set up the Writing above the Spirit or Light written of , and tell people , that immediate Teaching , and immediate Revelation are ceased in these dayes ; and whither must people go then to ground their faith ? must they pin it upon their sleeves ? must they turn their backs on the Light of Christ within , to be captivated with the Popes and Priests darkness , with their dark and implicite faith ? and so be kept ever learning , that they may be always paying and maintaining a Company of Hypocrites , who were wont to cry against the Quakers for creeping into houses , whilst they had Cromwell to uphold them , and whilst they counted him the light of their Eyes , and breath of their Nostrils : but now these Presbyterian and Independant Priests are fain to creep up and down themselves into houses , though it is evident they are no better then blind and dead men , since the light of their Eyes and breath of their Nostrils is extinguished : howbeit , they have gotten a cunning way to drive a trade now more hiddenly then when they were Parish Priests , having at their Meetings large Collections , at some places a great Bason or Platter held at the door , and at some other places their Agents to go from house to house to procure or beg money for them ; and thus many of them ( it is supposed , and credibly reported ) drive a greater trade then many of the Parish Priests ; and in some places , some of their Company have made a cunning bargain with the Episcopal Parish Priests , as allowing them part of the Fleece ( or money ) that they take from off their Flock , whereupon the Episcopal Priest is contented to let them drive a trade under his Nose . But now you who are the Followers , and Hearers , and Benefactors these cunning creeping Priests , you should do well to try them a little , be not too free of your purses to them , lest afterward you repent of it ; for we do not believe that many of them are so consciencious as to scruple conforming to the Common-Prayer , if they had but a dead trade among you , or were put upon trial ( for now you have fed them so full and fat , that they make such a vapour and blustering against us who have been the Sufferers , and whom they know in stormy times have endured the storms , and born the heat , and the blows very much from them , when they have skulkt and crept into holes and corners , and very few of them durst shew their heads in any Testimony for God or Christ ; but have been ready to run away out at back-doors , or over the houses , rather then be taken prisoners , though now they can in their Meetings , Houses and Barns most unworthily and unjustly rail against , and revile us , called Quakers , and grosly pervert and misrepresent our Principles , vilifying and reproaching the Truth that we profess concerning the Light of Christ that is in every man , and the sufficiency of it ; but it is set over all their heads , and the Truth hath confounded and shattered them , for they were commonly wont to tell people it was but a natural light , the light of a natural Conscience , a created light ; but now this their representative ( S. S. hath confest , that it is a spiritual Light , yea , a Light of the Spirit of God that is in every man , so what he hath asserted to the contrary in his declaring it insufficient , and bidding people turn their backs upon it , is all against the Spirit of God , and the Light of it , wherein his folly and confutation is so signally discovered , that he , and the rest that owned him , have neither cause now to boast , nor yet to urge for any more meetings with any of us , nor we much so regard them , except that we should order some of our women Friends to dispute with them , for many of them are able to confute these shatter'd Priests , whom the Sun is set upon , and the day is become dark , and the Lord is delivering many out of their mouthes , and that is their torment , especially , when they are like to lose any of their Benefactors , then they are ready to call for disputes with us , and to make a bussle and stir , by which they still lose and are disappointed of their ends ; for at the last Dispute when they would not suffer us to explain our selves , or give an answer ; some of the people said , We shall like the Quakers never the worse , if you will not give them leave to speak ; and indeed , many were then convinced so far as to see the folly and madness of this S. S. and his Assistant Priest Bernard , who was there proved a manifest Lyar , in interrupting G. W. contrary to his plain promise . The Questions which we propounded to be disputed on before the first Dispute were three ; as first , Whether every man be enlightned with a spiritual saving Light ? which we affirmed . Secondly , Whether Perfection be attainable in this life ? which we affirmed . Thirdly , Whether impure persons ( while such ) be justified by the imputation of Christ's Righteousness ? which we denied . This last Question S. S. altered , and stated it thus , Whether Justification be by the works of the Law , or by the Righteousness of Christ through Faith ? which Question could not in these general terms so reach the controversie between us , as the Question we proposed ; these Priests holding , That men are imputatively righteous , and justified when actually Sinners ; and we holding the contrary , That men are justified when really and actually righteous , or partakers of the Righteousness of Faith in Christ , wherein they are obedient to the Word or Spirit of God in their hearts , to which the righteousness of Faith requires obedience ; and we further affirm , that it is a false imputation to reckon men righteous or just , whilst they are really or personally unrighteous and unjust ; for the Faith that was reckoned to Abraham , and by which the Believers are justified , is a Living Faith , that purifieth the heart , and that is accompanied with those works of obedience , which answer the Law of Faith in the heart . Moreover , to these Questions before S. S. added three more ; as in the first place , Whether the Scriptures are not to be our Rule of Life ? to which we affirmed , Not the Writings , but the thing written of , to wit , the same that was the Saints Rule in all Ages , or the Spirit and Light of Christ within which gave forth the Scriptures , and brings to the right understanding , true use and fulfilling of them , and without which Light people cannot truly understand them . Then S. S. added , for the two last Queries , ( viz. ) Whether Baptism with water be an Ordinance of Christ ? which he affirmed , though he durst not tell us whether Babes or Believers were to be the Subjects of it ? or whether he were a true administrator of it ? for when G. W. in a Letter would have put him to prove his call to the Ministry ; and whether he own'd immediate Revelation in these dayes ? he must have George to prove his call first ; thus he shuffled . And then his last Question was , Whether the Lords Supper be not an Ordinance of Christ , binding us ? this Question we got not to , to discuss , nor did he explain what he meant by the Lords Supper : howbeit , he hath told G. W. in a paper , That this Light within doth not dictate that Baptism by water is Gods Will , nor that we ought to celebrate the Lords Supper , &c. So that you the Hearers and Followers of this S. S. may take notice , that if he does celebrate ( as he Popishly saith ) and delivers to you . Bread and Wine , and tell you it is the Lords Supper , he is not led to it by the dictates of the Light within , which he hath confest to be the Light of the Spirit of God ; and therefore we may conclude his pretended Celebration and Ordinance not binding to us , because the Light of the Spirit of God does not enjoyn us to it ; for we must worship in the newness of the Spirit , and we know the Spirit of Truth leads into all Truth ; so that what is of Truth the Light dictates to us , and therefore we must not follow Priest S. S. his darkness for our Dictator or Guide . Secondly , If sprinkling Infants be a part of his Trade in houses and corners , you may understand that the Light of the Spirit of God doth not dictate it unto him , and therefore you will be exceeding , blind and dark , if you give your selves to be bound to submit to his darkness , or to any of his impositions , which are neither Scriptural nor Spiritual ; therefore we caution you not to follow such dark and blind Guides , and not to turn your backs upon the Light of Christ within , lest you be shut up under the chains of these Priests darkness and ignorance , who have perverted and deceived you , one while endeavouring to keep you from the Light within , another while pretending to pray for God's Teaching , as this S. S. hath done , where in his papers he saith , The whole Congregation stand in need of Gods teaching , and the Lord God of Heaven lead us into all truth ; thus prayeth ( saith he ) your truly well-wisher in the Lord S. Scandret . But , we pray you , how should you know and receive Gods teachings or leading into all Truth , if not by his Light within ? Are you like to receive his teachings in the darkness ? or by turning your backs on the Light ? whereas if God be your Teacher , you must know and own his Law in your hearts , and his Spirit in your inward parts , as he hath promised , and not follow Hypocrites , that one while pray to God to teach you , another while say , You must turn your backs on his Light within , as insufficient , whereas the Light of the Spirit of God is to be the only Teacher , and is both true , infallible , and a perfect Guide to all them that obey and follow it ; therefore reject it not , as you tender your own eternal happiness , and desire to be delivered from under the power of Darkness , Hell and Destruction . We have Copies of the Disputes more at large , and circumstancially , as they were then taken by several in short-hand , and after compared , which are here abreviated into this method following for plainness to the Readers , with some passages added in the Answers where we met with interruptions . And if Steph. Scandret shall undertake to appear in print , in vindication of his own and his Brethrens Principles , we hope we shall have more opportunity to make them further manifest , then they would allow us at the Disputes . SECT . I. Here followeth some of S. Scandret his Principles and Doctrines , disputed on between him and G. W. at the first Dispute , ( on the 20th of the 11th Moneth 68. ) with a brief Answer and Reply . S. Scandret affirmed , That the Scriptures are the sole universal and most certain Rule of Life , more full then any other to us , and that they most fully discover and reveal the Mind and Will of God , which cannot be known but by the Scriptures ; therefore we are directed to search them : and if it be certain that the Scriptures come from God , as none dare deny , then am I not so certain , if any thing else be dictated to me ( said he ) . Answer . Although we own the Scriptures of Truth in their place , yet they are not to be set up above that Spirit that gave them forth , as here our Opposer hath done ; for it is the Spirit of Truth that leads into all truth , that reveals the Mind and Will of God , and it is the Inspiration of the Almighty that giveth understanding , without which men are ignorant of the Scriptures ; and how comes this man to be so certain of the Scriptures , whilst his certainty depends not upon the Spirit 's guidance ? and whence hath he his certainty , whilst he hath excluded the immediate teachings and guidance of the Spirit of Truth , which searcheth all things , even the deep things of God ? is he not among them that searched the Scriptures to find Eternal Life in them , but would not come to Christ that they might have Life ? besides , he doth not rely upon the Spirit of Truth for certainty , both as the most absolute Rule and Leader ; we have little cause to believe his spirit , his faith and perswasion being implicite and dark ; and how will he convince them meerly by the Scriptures , who question them , or the Translation of them , seeing his Brother Tho. Danson hath confessed , that it is but petitio principii , a begging of the Question , to bring a Testimony of Scripture concerning it self , for their conviction that question its Authority ? whereby he hath apparently shaken their Foundation ; but if the Scriptures be the only most certain universal Rule , as S. S. affirms , then it seems the course he 'll take to convince Papists , Jews and Turks , who question , or oppose much of the Scriptures , is by the Scriptures themselves ; and herein he still comes under his Brother Danson's censure of begging the question , and imposing upon his Opposers : But how manifestly did this S. S. contradict himself , when he confessed , that the Light of the Spirit of God within was more universal then the Scriptures , in that many have it , who have not Scripture , and to such the Light within might through the blessing of God be saving ? as also , if he and his Brethren did really own the Scriptures to be the sole , and most certain , and full Rule of Life , what needed they have Assemblies in Scotland and England to make them a Directory , Confession of Faith , Catechisms and Covenant , if the Scriptures were so full and of such esteem with them as they pretend ? S. S. Paul by the Light within did , and thought he might do many things contrary to the Name of Jesus , and so was misled and mistaken by following the Light within , &c. Answ. This is a gross mistake , it was not by following the light within , but by following his own thoughts and darkness that he was mistaken , wherein he was zealous for Traditions more then for Light or Spirit within ; so that here our Opposer hath done no less then put Darkness for Light ; and what , and where were the pricks that it was hard for him to kick against ? were they not from the Light within ? S. S. What is dictated to me within may come from the Darkness , and I may take it for Light ; but what comes from Scripture I am certain is from the Spirit of God , there is no darkness in the Scriptures ; it is true the Spirit of God is a Spirit of Truth , but in as much as within us there is Darkness as well as Light , we are not able to discern the one from the other without the Scriptures , as Paul was subject to mistake by following the Light within . Answ. Here he hath sufficiently manifested himself to be one that understands not the dictates of the Light from Darkness , as one yet in the blindness of his mind , and in the Darkness that comprehends not the Light ; and Paul when he was mistaken , and thought he might act contrary to Jesus , was in the unconverted state , as it plainly appears this Priest S. S. is , who discerns not between Light and Darkness ; and what signifies his saying , there is no darkness in the Scriptures ; is he any whit the nearer the understanding of them , whilst he is so full of Darkness in himself , that he discerns not the Light from it , the God of the World having blinded his mind ? And did not Paul when he was Saul , and a Persecutor own the Scriptures of Moses and the Prophets as his Rule , and yet acted contrary , as one out of the Light , when he persecuted ? but yet when he was turned to the Light and Law of God within , then he saw himself and sin to be exceeding sinfull ; and it was the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ , that was inward and spiritual , that made him free , and this was his Rule in the converted state , when he was come to serve the Lord , not in the oldness of the Letter , but in the newness of the Spirit : But again , how did this S. S. contradict himself in granting , that the Spirit was to give the understanding of Scripture , and did as certainly reveal the Mind and will of God as the Scriptures ? but then again in contradiction to himself , asserted , that the Spirit of God must be tried by the Scriptures , whereby he still hath ascribed the Supremacy to the Scriptures , and not the Spirit ; absurdly preferring the effect before the cause , as if the Spirit of God were not sufficient to manifest it self to them that believe in it , and yet be sufficient to lead into all Truth : what gross ignorance , and apparent contradiction is this our Opposer involved in ? certainly the Spirit of Truth is all-sufficient , and must have the preferment among all that are spiritually minded : And seeing it was granted by S. S. That where the Scriptures did not come , the Light within was to be their Rule , and the Spirit of God listned unto , and obeyed ( but the Scriptures must be our only Rule who have them , &c. ) Upon this we query , whether yet he will own the Spirit of Light within to be greater , and preferr'd before Scripture ? as doubtless the Spirit of Truth that gave them forth is the greater ; and then we ask , if the Heathen or Gentiles , that shewed the work of the Law written in their hearts , were led or guided by that which is greater then the Guide which the Christians now are to rely upon ? or whether or no professed Christians in England must be inferiour to the Gentiles or Heathen ? Let these things be seriously considered , for Christ is given for a Light unto the Gentiles , to be Salvation to the ends of the Earth ; and he said , Believe in the Light that you may be Children of the Light ; and he that doth Truth cometh to the Light , that his deeds may be manifest that they are wrought in God , John 3. 21. So that here the Light is the Rule to manifest and try mens actions , whether they are wrought in God , yes or nay ? SECT . II. S. Scandret confest , That it was a spiritual Light , and that it was the Light of Christ that every one was inlightned with ; G. W. asked him what Spirit it related to , or was the Light of ? for the word that is the primative of the derivative SPIRITUAL , is SPIRIT ; to this S. S. answered , that it was the Spirit of God which it was a Light of , &c. Reply , A plain confession , no wit is the Light of the Spirit of God that is in every man , enough to overthrow all our Opposers work to the contrary , and his reason from his own , and the Creatures darkness and mistakes against the sufficiency of the Light of the Spirit of God ; this is the Stone and Rock that breaks , and will break him and such Opposers to pieces . S. S. Objection , The Light within doth not change all mens hearts ; all do not obey God ; it brings not all to God ; all heard not the joyfull sound ; all had not satisfaction in God ; therefore the Light within is not saving . Reply , The same he might as well object against the Spirit of God , as against the Light of it , which he hath confest to before ; for many had the good Spirit given to them who rebelled against God , and grieved his holy Spirit ; therefore their hearts were not truly changed by it , because of their Rebellion ; and they that rebel against the Light know not its ways , because they abide not in its Paths , Job 24. 13. and there are many who resist the Spirit of God , and reject his Counsel until they are given over to hardness and unbelief . Now what doth S. S. think that the Spirit , or Light of the Lord , will inevitable , or irresistably inforce a change and Salvation upon rebellious gainsaying Persons , who hate his Light and reject his Counsel ; if he suppose this , why is it not inforc'd upon all in the same capacity ? what , doth he render man like a Block , or a Beast , not to go or act in obedience or subjection , but as he is forc'd or driven ? surely , man hath a better capacity given him of God then so : and seeing S. S. did confess , That the Light in its common operations was in the unbelievers ; upon which , we ask , what those common operations are ? and what do they tend to ? and what is the good end of God in affording this Light of his Spirit to all , and such operations in unbelievers ? surely , if it be to their conviction and reproof for sin and evil , God's good end and Will therein is , that they may come to see and hate sin and evil , and so be by degrees drawn out of it , and find mercy , peace and satisfaction with the Lord in forsaking sin , and embracing righteousness ; surely the universal Love of God in giving Light to all , is of this tendance and effect , to all that really accept of his Love and good will. S. S. The common Light may misguide a man , for it may become darkness ; if the Light that is in you be darkness , &c. Answ. The Light of the Spirit of God is infallibly true , and cannot misguide any , neither is it proper or true to call this darkness , for the Light in every man is confessed to be the Light of the Spirit of God ; however , S. S. and such Blind-Guides , to their own confusion , may put light for darkness , and darkness for Light , as such whose minds and eyes are evil do ; and it was such that Christ spoke of , who , if they put darkness for light , then , how great was their darkness ; for , to be sure , no light in it self , or in its own being , can properly be called darkness . S. S. Object . Deut. 29. 4. Yet the Lord hath not given you a heart to perceive , and eyes to see , and ears to hear unto this day ; therefore , &c. Reply , There were those who closed their eyes , and stopped their ears , as did the rebellious Jews , Zach. 7. 11 , 12. Matth. 13. 15. and though these whom Moses reproved , did not continue in the tenderness of heart , and true Light unto that day , yet it is evident verse 2. they had seen all that the Lord did before their eyes in the Land of Egypt , and the signs and miracles , verse 3. as also of the same people an ample testimony is given in Nehem. 9. what great things the Lord had done for them ; and how he gave also of his good Spirit to instruct them , verse 20. SECT . III. UPon the Question about Perfection S. S. affirmed , That Perfection that is a state free from all Sin , is not attainable in this Life , but God would take his own time to do it in the other World , after Death ; Sin shall never be wholly taken away in this life , but in another life , when we come to the spirits of Just men made Perfect , and to God the Judge of all , &c. Ans. Here he hath spoken both like a Stranger from God and Just men , and hath taken Sathan's part in pleading for his work , which is Sin , denying the end of Christ's coming and manifestation , and the work and effect of the true Ministry , which was given for the Perfecting of the Saints , Ephes. 4. And Christ was manifest to destroy the work of the Devil , which was Sin , and he that abideth in him sinneth not , see 1 John 3. and when , and where are Believers perfectly freed or clensed from sin in the life to come ? is not this like the Pope's Doctrine for a Purgatory ? but how long it is between death and this time of clensing ? or whether the Saints deceased are yet clensed , yes or nay ? and the place where S. S. could not tell . But further , how gross and absurd is it for him to suppose Believers not come to the Spirits of Just men made Perfect , or to God the Judge of all , till after their decease ? for were the Hebrews not alive , nor upon Earth , when they were writ to , in these words , Ye are come unto Mount - Sion , to God the Judge of all , &c. Hebr. 12. 22. surely they were then living upon Earth . S. S. They were come , that is spiritually , but not corporally , to the Spirits of Just men , &c. Reply , What a strange shuffle is this ; where do the Scriptures speak of a corporal Perfection , or a joyning to God corporally ? but must not the Body be subject to the Spirit , seeing Believers are to be sanctified throughout , in Body , Soul and Spirit ? and if that which is born of the Spirit , which is Spirit , have the Rule , then the Body is brought into subjection , and that which is born of God overcomes the World , 1 John 5. 4. Upon Psalm 119. 1 , 2 , 3. S. Scandret gave his meaning thus , They do no iniquity , that is , so far as they are regenerated , &c. To this we say , This is his corruption and perversion put upon plain Scripture , his meaning implying only thus much ; They do no iniquity , that is , so far as they do no iniquity ; and so according to his meaning , the words are to be read thus , Blessed are the undefiled in the way , so far as they are undefiled in the way ; and blessed are they that keep his Testimonies , so far as they keep them , &c. whereas the words are plain and positive , without any such exception , Blessed are the undefiled in the way , who walk in the Law of the Lord , &c. as his instance of Paul in Rom. 7. 17. he should also as well have instanced Paul's deliverance , and being made free by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus from the Law of sin and death , and his being made more then a Conqueror . S. S. The state of Perfection is not attainable in this life , because whilst men are in the Body , vain thoughts lodge within them ; and Job saith , If I say I were perfect , I should not know my own Soul. Reply , First , Victory over vain thoughts through Faith in the Power of Christ is attainable , the thoughts of the righteous are right , Prov. 12. 5. David waited and travelled , that vain thoughts might not lodge within him ; and also he said , I hate vain thoughts , Psalm 119. 113. And let the wicked forsake his way , and the unrighteous man his thoughts , and let him return unto the Lord , and he will have mercy upon him , &c. Isa. 55. 7. and it was the rebellious that walked after their own thoughts , Chap. 65. 2. And , oh Jerusalem , wash thine heart from wickedness , that thou mayst be saved ; how long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee ? Jer. 4. 14. So that it is evident victory over them is attainable . First , because a forsaking of them is required . Secondly , because Believers waited and prayed for such a victory . Thirdly , because it was attained by those whose thoughts were right , and those under the Gospel whose thoughts were brought into subjection to Christ : And as for Job , however he debased himself under his great Affliction and Trial , yet at that time of temptation , the testimony given of him , was , That he was a perfect and upright man , one that feared God and eschewed evil , Job 1. 1 , 8. this was God's own Testimony of him to Satan ; to which Satan answered the Lord , and said , Doth Job fear God for nought ? hast not thou made an Hedge about him , & c ? Now , [ mark ] here Satan did more confess to the truth that God said of Job , then these Priests do who plead for sin and imperfection term of life ; so that they are more ignorant and blind then Satan , they shew themselves to be his Agents , in pleading for his work , who notwithstanding sought to make Job curse God , and so to decline from his perfection . In that of Job 9. 20 , 21. If I justifie my self my mouth shall condemn me , though I were perfect , yet would I not know my Soul , &c. Self-Justification we do not own , but yet Perfection is attainable , see Job 23. 10 , 11. But he knoweth the way that I take , when he hath tried me , I shall come forth as Gold ; my Foot hath held his Steps , his Way have I kept , and not declined So here is Perfection , whatever the Devil and his Instruments either work , or say to the contrary . S. S. That God saw it not good to abolish sin in this life . Answ. A strange Doctrine , contrary to both God's Commands , Promises and Works ; viz. Sin not ; I will make an end of sin , for this purpose is the Son of God made manifest to the destroy the works of the Devil : can God see the continuance of evil to be good ? or that his Commands should be made void ? surely no. S. S. Arg. That God is continually purging every Branch in Christ ; therefore there is something to be purged out . Reply , There is a time of purging , and a time of being purged in this life ; He hath washed us from our sins in his own Blood , &c. and because every Branch in Christ , is of the Heavenly Father's purging , therefore it must be perfectly purged and fitted to bring forth much fruit ; for God's work is perfect , it is not an imperfect work of mans ; and we ask , whether every Branch that bringeth forth fruit in the Vine , be not of the nature of the Vine in which it grows , and hath its vertue ? SECT . IV. S. S. We are all lost in Adam ; we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God , and we could not redeem our selves ; it is only the Blood of Christ answers for us at the Bar of Gods Justice , &c. Answ. You that plead and contend forsin term of life , are but yet in Adam , in your sins , short of the glory of God , not redeemed by the Blood of Christ , while in your polluted state ; you are not acquited , neither will God's Justice pass you by ▪ if you continue without repentance , rejecting his Love and good will tendred in Christ , who was not an Offering only for some Presbyterians , or a few as they imagine , but for the whole World , though none do experimentally enjoy the good end of Christ's coming , Sacrifice and Blood , but such as receive him to believe in , follow and obey him as the Author of Eternal Salvation , to as many as obey him . S. S. A justified state is attended with Sanctification ; what Righteousness is that which justifies ? Answ. First , it is a true confession , that a justified state is sanctified , and therefore men are not justified , nor made righteous while unsanctified ; and this confutes much of these mens Doctrine for an imputed Justification of men in their sins . Secondly , the Righteousness which justifies , renders true Believers both Righteous , Just and accepted of God , is the Righteousness of Faith , it is spiritual inwardly , and spiritually received in the obedience of the Spirit of Holiness , of Faith and Power of God ; it is an everlasting Righteousness , not of self , nor yet imperfect , nor yet an imagination of an imputation to men in sin , but it is inwardly revealed in such in whom the Image of God is renewed , and not in them who are in old Adam in the fall . S. S. Though Christ's Suffering was temporary , his active and passive obedience was the only thing that redeemed our Souls , and that the Righteousness within had no hand to exempt us from wrath . Answ. What is the tendency of this Doctrine , but to shut Christ out of doors , and not to suffer him place in his people , whilst his Righteousness within is so little valued ; whereas Christ is made unto the true Believers , Wisdom , Righteousness , Sanctification , and Redemption : And know ye not that Christ is in you , except you be Reprobates ; and did not his active and passive obedience in his Person bare witness unto that Spirit of Holiness and Righteousness within , by which he offered up himself ? and though Christ's Suffering on the Cross was temporary , yet the Righteousness of Faith still remains , and the blessed effect of his Suffering and Sacrifice is therein enjoyed by true Believers , in Light ; and we neither go about to establish self-righteousness , nor works of Self for Justification , as S. S. seemed falsly to insinuate in his preachment at the latter end ▪ to which he would not stay to receive an Answer , but gat away in the crowd : and he needed not have told us that God will not acquit the guilty ; it was a Doctrine more proper to himself , and his Brethren ; for , to be sure , they are deeply guilty , who dispute for sin and imperfection all their dayes , wherein God will not clear nor acquit them . And such who are found in Christ , and his Righteousness , not having their own , are not found disputing and pleading for the Devil's Work , as these men are ; nor yet shutting Christ , or his Righteousness , out of people ; but are really partakers of that Everlasting Righteousness wherein both Redemption , Justification , and Acceptance with the Lord is enjoyed by them that are Sanctified by the Spirit and Power of God , and Restored out of the faln state , up to Christ , who is made unto us Wisdom , Righteousness , Sanctification and Redemption , 1 Cor. 1. 30. Thus far we have in plainness , for the information of the Readers , returned an Answer to S. S. his chief Principles , which were more fully discoursed of at the first Dispute , in which you may see how defective he was , as he afterward confessed ; as also , that he hath not amended his Matter at the second Dispute , but made it worse . Here follows some of Stephen Scandret his Principles asserted by him , and owned by the other Priests with him , ( at the Second Dispute , ( which was on the 1st of the 5th Moneth 1669. ) upon some of the same Questions disputed on at the former . I. FIrst , concerning the Scriptures and the Light within , S. S. said , The main Difference between those , called Quakers , and us in this , is , as judge , here we set up the Scriptures , as the only Rule to Guide to Heaven and Glory , they the Light within ; they own the Scriptures so far as they agree with the Light within ; we own the Light within so far as it agrees with the Scriptures : The Scriptures are the only Rule , and most pretious , and not the Light within ; we are to turn our backs upon the Light within ▪ as being insufficient , &c. The Scriptures are a full Rule , and ●ully sufficient for Salvation , let him affirm the same of the Light within if he dare : The Scriptures are the infallible Rule , a trying Light , a binding Rule , let him affirm the same of the Light wi●hin if h● dare Answ. Here are several Affirmations laid down , but no proofs ; remember what thou did'st acknowledge and confess at our last Dispute concerning the universallity of the Light within , that it might be a Rule where the Scriptures were not ; and also didst grant , that it was spiritual , the Light of the Spirit of God ; but now it may be seen plainly , that thou goest about to set up the Scriptures above the Spirit of God which gave them forth : And now we do affirm , that the Light of Christ within , is both a certain infallible trying Light , and binding Rule to all them , the Children of the Light , and every one that love it both doth , and dare so own it , and confess to it , as that certain manifesting Rule and Guide , whereby things that are reproved are made manifest ; and they that love it bring their deeds to it , that they may be proved whether they are wrought in God ; and such do not give ( nor own ) such sinful advise to people as to turn their backs on the Light , as this Blind-Guide , who shuts his eyes ( as one opposing plain conviction ) hath done , who after he had so highly asserted the Scriptures or Writings to be the only Rule which leads to Salvation , he confessed , that he did not mean the Scriptures or Writings abstractively to be the Rule , but the Will of God contained or declared of in them , wherein he contradicted himself , for this alters both the state of the Question and Assertion ; for whilest he laid all upon the Scriptures , this tended to shut out all people under Heaven from Salvation , Life and Glory , but such as have the Scriptures , which is a sad and prejuditial censure ; but now , seeing it is not the Writing , but the Matter or Thing declared of , that is the Rule , the Light of Christ within must be the standing universal Rule , for that is declared of , and referred to by the Scriptures ; so that to follow the Light ▪ within , in what it dictates , is agreeable , and not repugnant to Scripture , as is falsly insinuated by this Opposer . Moreover , the things declared of , or contained in the Scriptures , relating to the Will of God , and to Life and Salvation may be enjoyed where the Writings are not ; for there were Gentiles instructed by the Will or Spirit of God , who had not the Law outward , as in Rom. 2. therefore this Spirit or Light of God is greater , or more universal then the Scriptures , and contains that which the Scriptures contains , and more ; so the tenor and tendance of S. S. his work is to turn people from the greater , wherein they can never truly own the lesser ; for by turning of their backs upon the Light within , they oppose and violate the Scriptures of Truth ; although he could hypocritically pray to God to lead us into all truth ; and also , in contradiction to himself , did grant , that without Spiritual Illumination , and Regeneration he could not come to the Excellency and Knowledge of the Will of God in the Scriptures ; so that here the Spiritual Illumination is the Rule preferred before the Writings ; and now the Question is , whether those Gentiles had not a sufficient Rule in them , who had not the Scriptures , who yet did the things contained , and enjoyed the things declared of ? to this we could not have an Answer , but the same thing before asserted of the Scriptures over and over , as being the full Rule , &c. and that we must turn our backs upon the Light within , whereas , people had need turn their hacks upon the darkness and blindness of such at S. S. who notwithstanding , in contradiction to himself , was made to grant , that we have but a part of the Scriptures , many things being written , acted and spoken from the Spirit of God , which we have not in the Bible ; however , we must not turn our backs upon the Light of the Spirit of God within , nor deny or question its sufficiency , for we have experience of it , and that this Spirit is the Guide into all truth , without which the Scriptures are not truly understood ; the Will of God declared of in the Scriptures we grant is the full Rule ; hereupon the Priest interrupted , and said , thanks be to God for this truth they have granted , &c. whereas we still added , that it was the Will of God we should follow his Light and Spirit within , to guide us into all truth ; for this is that which unvails the heart , enlightens the understanding to know the Scriptures ; but the Jews had the Writings of Moses and the Prophets , yet they understood not what they read , they could not see the end , because their hearts were vailed , even until the Apostles dayes ; so their reading the Scriptures did not discover Life and Glory to them , because it did not remove the vail from off their hearts ; but the Inspiration of the Almighty giveth understanding , the Light of the Spirit of God within can unvail the hearts , and enlighten the minds , and to this S. S. hath in effect granted , when he said , I did never affirm , that without Spiritual Illumination we could come to the knowledge of the Will of God in the Scriptures , &c. To which we further add , that it is the man of God , who is in the Faith , being led by his Spirit , who truly knows the right use and service of Scriptures , they being of use and profitable , as given by divine inspiration ; but the Writing or Letter , outward , is not of absolute , universal necessity to Salvation ; for many may be saved who neither have it , nor can read it ; for , from the Light of Christ within , they have so much of the Instructions , or precepts therein contained , as are necessary to Salvation . And Christ is the Way , the Truth and Life , and it is by the Fathers drawings that men come to him ; and his Light is universal , and enlightens every man that cometh into the World , now , it is no where so said of the Scriptures ; and if the Spirit of Truth Guide Believers into all truth , then the Light of this Spirit within must needs be a sufficient Rule of Life , &c. And this S. S. did confess it was a Spiritual Light , the Light of the Spirit of God , that is in every man. II. S. S. Grant I did , that it is a Light of the Spirit of God , but not given to all ; it is only the Elect are savingly enlightned , &c. Answ. It is given to all ; if God gave his good Spirit to wicked and rebellious men , then none are excluded from it ; but God did give his good Spirit to rebellious men , Nehemiah 9. 20 , 26. To this , with several other Arguments , our Opposer gave no Answer , but asserted his old Matters over and over ; and added some things , but not material . S. S. This is not a full Light , &c. for God created the Stars , which are a Light ; Must they therefore be the full Light of the Day & c ? Answ. We are speaking about the Light which is Spiritual , and of God , which his instance of the Stars makes nothing against ; nor did we ever read that the Light of the Stars was Spiritual ; neither doth it follow that the Light of the Spirit of God is not a sufficient Rule , because it is given by measure , and not in the fulness of it to all ; for however , it is pure and holy , the degrees do not alter the property : to every one of us ( saith the Apostle ) is given Grace , according to the measure of the Gift of Christ ; were they then to turn their backs of the measure of Grace given , because it was not given in its fulness ? no sure ; for the Light within , though manifest by measure , doth gradually lead men out of darkness , and sin , as they take heed unto it ; it is truly spiritual , pure , and universal , though it reveal not all things at once : and the Path of the just is a shining Light , that shineth more and more until the perfect day : and the more sure Word of Prophesie is to be taken heed unto , as a Light that shineth in a dark place , until the day dawn , and the Day-Star arise in the hearts ; but it is questionable , whether S. S. or his Brethren , will not say , that this is meant the Scriptures ; if so , then we ask , Are they more sure then what ? and whether the Day dawning , and the Day-Star arising in the hearts be the Scriptures ? Again , the Spirit of Truth doth convince the World of sin , and of righteousness , and declares the will of God. S. S. It doth not convince of righteousness ; if it convinceth of sin , then not of the contrary . Answ. We will appeal to the people , whether any of them can say , when they are reproved of sin , that they are not convinced of a contrary sta●e ? as namely , of a state of Righteousness , which they ought to come into . S. S. No , no , we will appeal to the Scriptures . Answ. It is no● contrary to the Scriptures to appeal to mens Consciences ▪ the Apostle was manifest in mens Conscience in the sight of God ▪ and sure it was the Light of Christ in them , which he was manifest unto . S. S. I deny that this Light within doth convince of Chist's Righteousness imputed . Answ. It being the Light of the Spirit of God , which both convinceth , and leadeth out of Sin , that must needs lead to a state of Righteousness , which is no other but Christ's Righteousness , even that of Faith , wherein those Gentiles that feared God , and obeyed this Light within , were accepted , and in this were they justified , see Acts 10. and Rom. 2. S. S. I deny that the Light within reveals Christ Jesus , prove it . Answ. The Light was given to believe in , before they were Believers , and shined in their hearts to give them the knowledge of the Glory of God , in ▪ the face of Jesus Christ ; therefore it was sufficient to answer the end of its being given , as to bring them into that knowledge , see 2 Corinthians 4. 6. S. S. This doth not prove that the Light doth reveal Christ ; Is this Grace ( that hath appeared to all ) the Light in every man ? prove that this Grace was the Light within : the Light in every man never heard , or taught , that the Gospel should come by Christ , &c. Answ. The Light shineth in Darkness , and the darkness comprehends it not ; but the Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared to all men ; therefore it is sufficient : and it hath been confest by S. S. that the Light of the Spirit of God did appear in every man ; now that this Grace which teacheth to deny ungodliness , and worldly lusts , is a spiritual inward Light ( and that which reveals Christ to Believers ) is plain , in that it both teacheth them to live Godly , to look for that blessed Hope and Appearance of that great God and Jesus Christ , Titus 2. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. therefore this Light or Grace within is both sufficient to reveal Christ and Gospel unto Salvation , whatever this Blind-Guide say to the contrary . Another Priest , with S. S. alledged , That the Grace of God appeared to all men , but not not in all . Reply , Was not its appearance Spiritual , how then did it appear to all , and not in all ? Surely its appearance to all , was in all , seeing it is spiritual , and spiritually to be seen , though many close their eyes against it . S. S. The Light within is not , nor ever was from the Foundation of the World a sufficient or full Rule : none from Adam in Innocency , to Moses and the Prophets ; nor from them to the Apostles ; nor any to this day that had a Light in them sufficient to be a Rule of Life , but something was super-added to the Light within ; as Gods Prohibition to Adam ; and to the Jews the Law of Ordinances , as Circumcision , Sacrifices , &c. and to the Apostles Baptism , and the Supper , &c. Answ. What a heap of ignorance and darkness is here uttered against the Light of the Living ! And how is the sufficiency of it in all Gods People opposed by this our Opposer , who denies the Light in Adam , in Innocency , to be the full Rule ; was not God and his Light in him ? Surely , the Scriptures were not Adams Rule , for they were not written till many hundreds of years after ; and the Holy men of God had a Rule before they were written ; as Abel , Enoch , Abraham , &c. And what was the Rule to the Prophets and Apostles , which directed them in writing and giving forth the Scriptures ? Was not their Rule within , and the Revelation of the things contained in Scripture inward , before they were written ? Was not the Spirit , the Law and Light of the Lord within ? And whatsoever may be known of God , is it not manifest within ? S. S. Did not God require more of Adam then the Light did dictate ? for if there be twenty Trees in a Garden ( looking about upon the Trees in the Grove , there , where the dispute was ) how should we know by the Light within which of the Tree were prohibited , if there were not a super-added Command , &c. Reply , Here all along he manifested his ignorance , both of God , of his Law within , which is Light , and of the forbidden Fruit : And being asked , whether it was outward Fruit , and an outward Tree that Adam was prohihited ●● some of them answered , yes ; still opposing the sufficiency of the Light in Adam , when they could not deny God to be in him : And as for those Laws of Ceremonies and Shadows to the Jews , Salvation doth not depend upon them , but upon the Light of Christ within , who is the Substance : And when we urged that Christ was the Image of the Invisible God , and the First-born of every Creature ; and that Adam was made in the Image of God , which Image was Inward and Spiritual ; and that God is not like to corruptible man , it was no ingenious Answer for S. S. to cry out , A triffle , a triffle , or to cry , Ye Ramble , ye ramble , &c. As often he did , when he was baffled and confounded : And being asked , whether the appearance and Law of God to Adam was inward or outward ? his answer was , I am willing not to be wise above what is written ; I do not know , I am satisfied to be ignorant of it ; and yet he was ready to assert in his ignorance , That the Light in Adam was insufficient , when he did not know whether the appearance of God to him ▪ was inward or outward ; yet granted , that Adam in Innocency had the enjoyment of God , and so plainly contradicted himself , as not able to mannage what he had asserted against the Light , nor yet his Brethren with him ; though when he was put to a nonplus , his Brother Priest B. to help him , argued in this manner , though to little purpose . Priest. viz. If those people , to whom the Apostles were sent , did never hear the words of Life and Salvation , till they came to preach unto them ; then the Light in them did not declare the words of Life and Salvation : but they did never hear the words of Life and Salvation , until the Apostle came to preach to them ; therefore , &c. But this Priest being manifest to be but a scornfull vopouring proud Fellow , with neither common sobriety , much less any weight or sence of Truth upon his Spirit , his filly shallow matter was slighted , and the Query was put to him , and the other Priests , in this manner . Query , Whether or no wilt thou grant the same thing that S. Scandret hath done ; viz ▪ that a Light of the Spirit of God is in every man ? or will you deny it ? If there be any of the same mind with him let them speak . Priests , We do own what Steph. Scandret hath laid down . Reply , Then this Light of the the Spirit of God was able to teach all the words of Life and Salvation ; and the Apostles did not preach to turn Peoples backs upon this but to turn them to it , and confirm them in it , as that which taught many before , to fear God and work Righteousness , wherein they were accepted ; and this overthrows the Argument before , that was so often repeated , and S. S. his vain Assertions and Totoligies to the contrary ▪ who turned his back on the Light within , till he is turned into gross darkness , and would have others do as he hath done . S. S. You dare not say the Light within is the full Rule . Answ. That 's false , we both dare say it , and have affirmed , and proved , that the Light of the Spirit of God is a full Rule to lead to Salvation , where it is obeyed , as it was to the Saints and true Believers of old , who according to their several attainments were to walk by the same Rule , and God would reveal to them , Phil 3 16. and they had attained to divers measures and degrees of the Spirit of God : and accordingly their states were written unto in several Epistles ; that which was to one state , was not to every particular state and condition among the Churches ; neither do we read , that the Church at Gorinth was to go and make the Epistle to the Church at Rome their Rule ; nor that the Churches at Ephesus , Philippi , or Thessalonia were to go to the Corinthians , for Paul's Epistles to them , to compare theirs with , and to be their Rule ; but that of the Spirit or Light within , to which they were all directed , and which was the Rule of the new Creature , whereby the things of God were revealed and made known unto the Saints ; who could say , we have not received the Spirit of this World , but the Spirit which is of God , whereby we know those things that are freely given us of God. III. S. S. Go Baptiz● , there is a Command for it , the Light saith nothing of it ; Go Teach and Baptize , that 's Christs Command : And then he urged to have us speak to Water Baptism , but durst not declare who he intended as the Subjects of it , whether Babes , or Believers , which G. W. and some of us often urged to know ; whereupon , if he had told us ingeniously his intention , we proffered fairly to dispute it ; but S. S. and his Brethren durst not be plain with us in this matter , but shuffled and evaded , calling out over and over , Do ye grant Baptism with water ; Go Baptize with water , water , &c. You Rebels , you Rebels , go Baptize you Rebels ; can Rebels be saved , &c. Thus , and after this manner , he continued bawling and railing for some time , that little fair dealing we could have . Answ. Go teach all Nations baptizing them , cannot intend Infants , neither is there water mentioned in the Command , Matth. 28. And it was proffered these Priests , that if they would stand for Baptizing Infants , or Plunging Believers , we would dispute that with them : Or if S. S. would be plain , and ingeniously tell us in what capacity he stood in , whether in the capacity of a Popish Priest , Episcopal Priest , Presbyterian Priest , or Baptist ? but hereunto we could have no other Answer , then his general clamor , as before , for water , water , &c. and therefore G. W. proferred to speak something to both Sprinkling Infants , and Plunging Believers , to shew the rise of the one , and the other not to be in force nor continuance under the Gospel ; but G. W. was interrupted , as often he was by these Priests . S. S. Water Baptism is Gospel ; a Dispensation of the Gospel was committed to Paul , &c. Answ. The Gospel is Everlasting , so is not Water-Baptism ; and Paul said , Christ sent me not to Baptize , but to preach the Gospel , 1 Cor 1. 17. and surely his Commission was as large as the rest of the Apostles . S. S. Christ sending him not to Baptize , but to Preach , is meant , not so much to Baptize , &c. as in Hosea 6. 6. it is said , I desired mercy and not Sacrifice , &c. Reply , This instance doth not prove his meaning , which perverts the Apostles words , who thanked God he baptized none of them , but such as he mentioned , 1 Corinth . 14. 15 , 16. For Christ sent him not to Baptize , but to Preach the Gospel , a full reason for his not continuing that then permissive practice of Water-Baptism ; which if it had been a Command in force , surely , he would neither have thanked God , for not obeying it ; nor yet have said , Christ sent me not to Baptize : And where it is said in Hosea 6. 6. I desired Mercy and not Sacrifice , those mentioned verse 5 , 7. whom he had hewed by his Prophets , who transgressed and dealt treacherously against the Lord , their Sacrifice could not be accepted ; therefore he desired Mercy , and not Sacrifice , and the Knowledge of God more then Burnt-offerings ; and indeed , if this Mercy and the Knowledge of God had born sway among them , there had been no need or occasion for Sacrifices , Burnt-offerings , or Sin-offerings ; the Sacrifices of God being a broken spirit , and a contrite heart , Psalm 51. 16 , 17. S. S. Water Baptism is necessary to Salvation ; ( being affirmed to be Gospel , to be binding of necessity , &c. ) Answ. What then will become of all them that never came under it : Must they all be damned for want of Sprinkling or Plunging in Water ? A sad sentence ; that Baptism which saveth , is not the putting away of the filth of the Flesh , but the answer of a good Conscience , &c. Giles Barnadiston urged , That there is one Faith , one Baptism , Ephes. 4. And asked these Priests , what Baptism it was ? whether that of Water , or the Baptism of the Spirit ? to which S. S. answered . S. S. There is but one Baptism , and it consists of two parts ; an inward part , and an outward ; the inward part was with the Spirit , and the outward with water . Reply , Did you ever read or hear such Doctrine before ? he makes the Baptism of the Spirit , and the Baptism with outward Water , both but one Baptism ; and so whereas he hath made such a bawling for Water-Baptism , now it is but the outward part of Baptism ; he should rather have said , as it is in the Common-Prayer-Book , It is the outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual Grace : However , in Scripture there is a plain distinction between the Baptism of Water , and the Baptism of the Spirit , as there is between John's baptizing with Water , and Christ's baptizing with the Holy Ghost and with Fire ; but this ignorant Opposer S. S. makes them both but one Baptism . IV. And further , we add an other instance against him and his Brethren , in behalf of the Light within , out of the Common-Prayer-Book , in the Collect for the third Sunday after Easter ; viz. Almighty God , which sheweth to all men that be in error , the Light of thy Truth , to the intent that they may return to the Way of Righteousness , &c. Now here is the Light of the Truth confest unto , both in its general extent , and in its sufficiency , as Guide and Rule , to lead men into the Way of Righteousness , which these men have all this while opposed : here is more of Truth confest in this particular , in the Common-Prayer-Book , then these men will confess to , who think themselves better Reformed with their Covenant , Directory , Confession of Faith and Catechisms , while yet in their Darkness they are opposing the Light of Truth within ; but it is set over all their heads , and hath manifested their darkness and confusion . V. Now concerning Justification , the question being asked , what it is ? it was answered , Priest , To make Righteous ; and S. S. confest , That Justification is by the Righteousness of Christ through Faith. Answ. That 's true , but men are not Justified , that is , made Righteous ; nor in the Righteousness of Faith , without Sanctification . S. S. Who affirms they are ? we own , that Justified Persons are Sanctified . [ But in contradiction , he again affirmed thus ] We Sinners are Justified by the Righteousness of Christ , imputed ; viz. Absolved from all our Sins from the beginning of our lives to the end . Reply , This gives a large Liberty to sin , if men may sin all their dayes , and yet think themselves absolved from all ; whereas , that of Rom. 3. 25. which they instanced , is thus , concerning Christ ; viz. Whom God hath set forth to be a Propitiation through Faith in his Blood , to declare his Righteousness for the Remission of Sins that are past , through the forbearance of God : It is not said , for the remission of sins past , present , and to come ; nor yet of all our sins from the beginning of our Lives to the end ; neither is the guilt of sin taken away , while men remain in the act of sin , as falsly was affirmed by S. S. contrary to Job 10. 14. If I sin , then thou markest me , and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity . And to be sure , men whilst Sinners , are not made Righteous , nor yet in a Sanctified state , while actually Sinfull : for while our Opposers confess , that Justification and Sanctification are inseparable ; and that we are not Justified without the work of Sanctification in us ; how do they break the Neck of their own Cause , in their pleading , That men are imputatively Righteous and Justified , and actively Sinfull ? This is a pleasant conceit to sooth up Hypocrites ; but when they come to see and feel the end of this Doctrine to be destruction , they will not be able to sooth themselves up with it in Hell ; nor to tell God then , that though they be really in Hell , yet they are imputatively in Heaven ; this their imagined imputation ( without the Living enjoyment of the Righteousness of Faith within , or the Fellowship of Christ's Sufferings ) will not save them from the sence of Anguish and Torment , when it comes upon them that live and die in their sins . S. S. I prove that the Righteousness by which we are saved is not within , but without ; the Saints were arrayed in White Robes ; and are not thy Garments outward ? ( George ) Do we not wear our Cl●thes on our Bodies ? you do not wear your Garments within you , but without you , &c. Reply , This is such an Argument , as we never heard , nor read of before , because the Righteousness of Christ is compared to a Garment , or to White Robes ; he concludes it not within , but without ; it appears he will let sin have a place within , and plead for it , but not Christ's Righteousness : Doth he think it is his Garment , while he 'll not receive it within ? Surely , he 's gr●sly mistaken : And might he not as well say , that Christ , and the Armour of God , or Light , is not to be within , because to be put on ; and then , after this manner , he may as well say , that neither Faith nor Salvation , nor the Word of God are to be within , but without only , which were gross Error and Ignorance ; for the Meek are clothed with Salvation ; the Upright put on Zeal for a Cloak , and Righteousness for a Garment ; Are not these within ? surely , yes , where Truth reigns in the heart ▪ VI. Here follows some of S. S. his manifest Contradictions for the Readers to take notice of . Contraditions . We are to turn our backs upon the Light within , as insufficient , and follow the Scriptures as the full Rule , &c. It is by the Spiritual enlightning of the understanding , that the Scriptures are known . [ In his Prayer ] Grant , O Lord , that Error , may be burnt up by thy holy Spirit , as by fire , &c. Contr. The Scriptures are the only Rule to guide us to Heaven , &c. I mean the Will of God contained in them , not the Writings abstractively . Contr. The Light that is in every man is not a full Rule . Yet a Light of the Spirit of God. Contr. We Sinners are justified by the Righteousness of Christ imputed , or absolved from all our sins , from the beginning of our lives to the end . Justification is to make Righteous ; it is by the Righteousness of Faith justified persons are Sanctified . Contr. The guilt of our sins is taken away , not the act of sin . [ His Brother Priest contradicted him ] viz. Men are not actually Sinners after Justification ; [ contradiction ] yet they sin , &c. Contradictions . Believers are Justified by the passive Obedience of Christ upon Earth , ( that is , by both his outward and inward Suffering ) not by his Righteousness within . Yet we are not justified without the work of Sanctification in us — He hath brought in Everlasting Righteousness — Christ's passive Obedience or Sufferings on Earth were temporary . Contr. This Light that is in every man doth not dictate that Justification is by Christ's Righteousness only . Yet it is a Light of the Spirit of God — — the Spirit makes application to us of Christ's Everlasting Righteousness . Robert Ludgater , William Allen , Jo. Furly , jun. John Childe , Giles Barnadiston , George Witherley . A Brief and Scriptural Examination of the Doctrine Concerning Election and Reprobation of Persons ; as held by Presbyterians , and some others . ANd now concerning that private Opinion of Personal Election and Reprobation from all Eternity , held by Presbyterian Priests , and some others related to them ; their Principle may be seen in their Confession of Faith and Catechisms , agreed on by the Assembly of Divines ( so called ) at Westminster , and approved by the General Assembly of the Kirk of Scotland , as where they say in their third Chapter of their Confession , That God from all Eternity , did by the most wise and holy Counsel of his own will freely and unchangeable ordain whatsoever comes to pass — and that by the Decree of God , for the manifestation of his Glory , some men and Angels are predestinated unto Everlasting Life , and others fore-ordained unto Everlasting Death ; and that these Angels and Men thus predestinated and fore-ordained , are particularly , and unchangeably design'd , and their number so certain and definite , that it cannot be either increased or diminished , &c. And also , upon the same Principle , they add in Chapter ten , That all those whom God hath predestinated unto Life , and those only he is pleased effectually to call by his Word and Spirit out of the State of Sin and Death , in which they are by nature , to Grace and Salvation by Jesus Christ , enlightning their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God , &c. And in Chapter eleven , God did from all Eternity decree to Justifie all the Elected ; and Christ did in the fulness of time die for their sins , and rise again for their Justification , &c. Observe , that it is upon this Opinion of a particular Personal Election and Reprobation of such certain designed number of persons , that these Priests , and Professors do ground their Doctrine of Saving-Grace , or Light , being but intended and given to a few , whom ( they suppose ) are designed for Salvation , as also , that Grace is only free for that few , and that Christ died , and satisfied only for that select number , according to their Principle ; and that Justification by Christ's Righteousness , imputed , is only designed for that select number ; the rest that they reckon God with-holdeth mercy from , passeth by , as having ordained them to Everlasting death and wrath , he withholdeth both saving Light and Grace from them ; so that they cannot avoid Hell and Damnation , what ever they do , according to this their Principle . Answ. The Consequences and effects of this Doctrine have been very sad ; first , in rendring God the Decreer and Designer of the Destruction of the greater part of Man-kind . Secondly , It renders him the Author of Sin and Iniquity , which is the cause of Destruction , in that they here accuse him , as ordaining what ever comes to pass . Thirdly , it renders him both partial and cruel unto his own workmanship . Fourthly , it makes void the free extent of God's Love and Grace to Man-kind , and his sending his Son into the World ; as also , renders the preaching of the Gospel to every Creature to be of no use , nor real intent , for the good of the greater part of Man-kind ; so that Priests of this Perswasion might stop their mouthes , and people never spend their money for their preaching any more . Fifthly , This their narrow and partial Opinion hath been an engine for Satan to work upon , to the causing many poor Souls to dispair of ever having the benefit of Saving-Grace , or Light , when they have believed Death and Damnation to be unalterably designed for them . Sixthly , It hath pufft up a few conceited Professors , as Presbyterians , Independants , and others , in secret pride , and self-confidence , as being more regarded of God , then all others , supposing themselves from Eternity to be Elected , and Grace and Salvation , or the benefits of Christ's Sufferings and Death only to be free for them , when their states and conditions are as sinfull , corrupt and bad ( with pride and covetousness ) as others ; and therefore against them , their narrow spirit , Principle , and partial Opinion , in this matter , we do in general lay down a few plain Scriptures , which , with many more , might be produced for the same purpose , on the behalf of God , and his goodness to man , and how equal his wayes are , and how mans own iniquity and sin being continued in , without repentance , is his ruin . As first , Genesis chap. 2. vers . 16 , 17. and the Lord God Commanded the man , saying , of every tree of the Garden thou mayst eat , but of the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil , thou shalt not eat of it ; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die , &c. where note , that God was neither the Ordainer , nor Author of mans Transgression , which brought death , and occasioned his being driven out of Paradice , chap. 3. ver . 23 , 24. but God gave man a plain Prohibition , Command and Warning to the contrary ; so that God did not secretly design or decree touching man , contrary to his own pure and equal Law given to man. Gen. 4. 6 , 7. And the Lord said unto Cain , why art thou wroth ? and why is thy Countenance faln ? if thou do well , shalt thou not be accepted ? and if thou do not well sin lieth at thy door : So that it is evident here , that God did not particularly design either that Cain should do evil , nor yet decree his eternal death from Eternity , seeing that in well doing he might have had acceptance ; but his evil doing was the cause of his misery . Deut. 30. 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. See , I have set before thee this day Life and Good : I call Heaven and Earth this day to witness against you , that I have set before you Life and Death , Blessing and Cursing ; therefore chuse Life , &c : And see vers . 17 , 18. But if thy Heart turn away , I denounce unto you this day , that you shall surely perish , &c. Where mark , that Life and Death was set before them , that they might chuse Life , and refuse death : but , if God had particularly decreed them for death and destruction , it had been a mockery to bid them chuse life , if they could never have it : and if he had absolutely elected them from Eternity for Life Eternal , why should it be denounced against them , that they should surely perish , if their hearts turned away from the Lord ? were it not an impertinent vain thing , to warn persons of such a danger , if they were absolutely secured from being liable to any such danger ? Nehem. 9. 20 , 26. Thou gavest also thy good Spirit to instruct them , and with-heldest not thy Manna from their mouth ; nevertheless , they were disobedient , and rebelled against thee , and cast thy Law behind their backs , and slew thy Prophets , &c. where , note , that God gave his good Spirit unto them , who rebelled , the Persecutors of his Prophets ; and if such had the good Spirit given them , surely , none are excepted , but all have so much of the true Light or Spirit of God given them , as shall leave them without excuse . Psal. 81. 11 , 12. But my people would not hearken to my voice ; nor Israel would none of me ; so I gave them up to their own hearts lust , and they walked in their own counsels : See here , they refusing to hearken to the voice of God ; and their refusing him was the cause of his giving them up to their own lusts and evil counsels , and not any partial secret decree concerning them . Isa. 63. 10. But they rebelled and vexed his holy Spirit ; therefore he was turned to be their Enemy , and he fought against them : Here their rebelling and vexing the holy Spirit of God , was the cause of his turning to be their enemy , and warring against them ; surely , then God was their Friend before he turned to be their Enemy , in that he had befriended them with his own Spirit . 2 Chron. 15. 15. Then the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the Son of Obed , and he went out to meet Asa , and said unto him ; O Asa , and all Judah and Benjamin , hear ye me , The Lord is with you , while ye be with him ; if ye seek him , he will be found of you ; but if ye forsake him , he will forsake you : So that it is mens forsaking of God first , for which cause he forsakes them ; and man forsakes the Lord before the Lord forsake him ; and is not this a falling from Grace to forsake the Lord. Isa. 1. 19 , 20. If you be willing and obedient , ye shall eat the good of the Land ; but if you refuse and rebel , ye shall be devoured with the sword : and ver . 28. The destruction of the Transgressors and of the Sinners shall be together , and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed : Where , mark upon what terms God promised good unto them ; and what was the cause of destruction , but rebellion and forsaking the Lord : See likewise Jer. 12. 17. Ezek. 18. 20. The Soul that sinneth , it shall die . verse 23. Have I any pleasure at all that the Wicked should die , saith the Lord God , &c. verse 25. Hear , O House of Israel , Is not my Way equal ? are not your wayes unequal ? and see verses 26 , 27 , 28 , 29. Again , vers . 30. Repent , and turn your selves from all your Trangressions , so Iniquity shall not be your ruin . And verse 32. For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth , saith the Lord God ; wherefore turn your selves and live ye . and Hosea 13. 9. Oh , Israel , thou hast destroyed thy self , but in me is thy help . See how evidently , in these passage , God is cleared , both in warning them , and in that he willeth not , nor hath pleasure in their destruction ; and how Iniquity is the ruin of them that continue in it ; and not any secret design or decree of God , contrary to his own Testimony given by his holy Prophets , concerning his good will for the Recovery of man out of Iniquity ; as also , see Ezek. 33. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. what is the cause of peoples destruction , and how their blood shall be upon their own heads that do not take warning ; and now lets a little take notice of the Testimony of Christ and his Ministers : As first , John 3. 16 , 17. For God so loved the World , that he gave his only begotten Son ; that whosoever believe in him should not perish , but have Everlasting Life : For God sent not his Son into the World , to condemn the World , but that the World through him might be saved . Surely , then God did not from Eternity design or decree the destruction of the greater part of the World , for that had contradicted the end of sending his Son. John 12. 46. I am come a Light into the World , that whosoever believe on me should not abide in darkness : So here it is manifest , that Christ is freely given a Light to those that are in darkness , that whosoever believeth on him ( it is not that a designed or select number of persons only ) should not abide in darkness , but whosoever believeth , &c. And see the Testimony given of him John 1. 9 , That was the the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the World ; It is not said , which lighteth only a select small number . 2 Cor. 5 14 , 15. For the Love of Christ constraineth us , because we thus judge , that if one died for all , then were all dead ; and that he died for all , that they which live , should not henceforth live unto themselves , but unto him which died for them , and rose again . 1 Tim. 2. 5 , 6. For there is one God , and one Mediator between God and Man , the Man Christ Jesus , who gave himself a Ransom for ALL , to be testified of in due time . Hebr. 2. 9. But we see Jesus , who is made a little lower then the Angels , for the suffering which death , crowned with glory and honour , that he by the Grace of God should taste death for every man. 1 John 2. And he is the Propitiation for our sins , and not for ours only , but for the sins of the whole World. In all which passages observe , that the free and universal Love , Grace , and Good-will of God in Christ , is testified in the Suffering , Death or Sacrifice of Christ , for all that were dead , for every man , for the sins of the whole World ; it is not said , that he died only for a few , or for a small number , Elected from Eternity , but for all men ; and gave himself a Ransom for all , for a Testimony in due time : And therefore away with such Doctrines and Opinions as oppose the free extent of the Grace of God and Light of Christ , which universally is given to all Man-kind ; and do not blame or lay the fault upon God any longer , as either decreeing mans destruction , or the cause of it ; but lay it in the right place , upon the Rebellious and Transgressors , who hate the Light and love Darkness rather , see John 3. 19 , 20. Object . But some object , That God loved Jacob , and hated Esau , before they were born , or had done good or evil . Reply , What then did he hate Esau for ? for any to suppose he hated him for nothing , or without cause , is to render God cruel and unequal in his wayes ; but those that thus object do both grosly mistake , and misplace the words : For that which was said before the Children were born , was , The elder shall serve the younger , ( the mystery whereof is only known , where the two Seeds , or two Births are known ) Rom. 9. 12. and then follows , as it is written , Jacob have I loved , and Esau have I hated ; but where was it written before Paul mentioned it , it was not written or spoken to either Isaac or Rebekah ; but it was written many hundred years after concerning their Successors , to wit , those of Israel and Edom , by the Prophet Malachi , chap. 1. and those whom God hated were the same people , that was called , The Border of Wickedness , the people against whom the Lord had Indignation for ever ; so that it was because of their Wickedness that the Indignation of God was against them . Object . Again , some object , That God hath Mercy on whom he will , and whom he will be hardneth ; Hath not the Potter power over the Clay ? &c. Reply , God hath concluded them all in unbelief , that he might shew mercy upon all ; it is his universal Love and good will in the first place , to tender and shew Mercy in his own Son unto all both Jews and Gentiles , but it is his Justice to give them up to hardness and unbelief who reject and oppose his free Love and tenders of Mercy ; for what can be the reason of hardning some , seeing this hardning is a Judgment upon them , in time ? not particularly or partially design'd from Eternity , ( as to particular persons simply ) for it s no reason for any to say , that he will harden some , because he will hearden them ; but because its just for him so to do , they having provoked him , and grieved his holy Spirit in them ; see Zachariah 7. 11 , 12. But they refuse to hearken , and pull'd away the Shoulder , and stopped their Ears , that they should not hear ; yea , they made their hearts as an Adamant-stone , &c. Therefore came a great Wrath from the Lord of Hosts . And as for his having power over the works of his hands , as the Potter hath over the Clay ; who questions that ? but though he made or formed man , as man , or as his Creature , he did not make him , nor ordain him to be a sinfull Rebellious man ; God is not his Potter , or Former , into Sin , but the Devil ; which , if man continue in , against his Maker , without repentance , then his end , which is destruction , is determined : For , Wo unto him that striveth with his Maker ; let the Potsherd strive with the Potsherds of the Earth ; shall the Clay say to him that fashioneth it , what makest thou ? Wo unto him that sayeth unto his Father , what begettest thou , & c ? Isa. 45. 9 , 10. Surely , God did not make man to strive against himself , nor yet to question , or suppose evil against his Workmanship , for he is not the Author of Sin ; and it is because of Iniquity that God hides his Face , and consumes people , who are the Clay , and he the Potter , Isa. 64. 7 , 8. Now , to be sure , God doth not find fault with any thing that is proper to his own Workmanship ; nor doth he consume any , meerly as his own Workmanship , but because of Iniquity ; see also Jer. 18. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. by which these partial opinionated Professors are absolutely confuted ; besides , it is such as like not to retain God in their knowledge , whom he gives over to a reprobate mind , Rom. 1. 21 , 28. Wherefore we advise all , who tender their own Salvation , not to be byassed or prejudiced with private and corrupt opinions of men of corrupt minds , nor yet to reject or dispise the Free Grace , or Light , of Jesus , which is freely tendred and given unto all ; but every one wait in it , and mind its appearance in your hearts , that thereby your understandings may be opened , that you may come to know the Election in Christ , as chosen in him to be holy , and without blame ( this Election we own ) and be conformed unto his Image , even the Image of the Son of God , and know him as the First-born among many Brethren , as those that are chosen in him , through the Sanctification of the Spirit , and belief of the Truth , to be holy , and without blame before him , which is a high and precious state that many are short of who conceit and pretend themselves to be Elect Persons , when yet they are polluted , unsanctified , unregenerate , unholy , impure , unfaithfull to God , rejecting the elect Seed , the elect and precious Stone ; therefore their Foundation is Sandy , their Building shattered , and the Lord our God is risen to stain their glory , and the pride of all Flesh , and yet more to confound all empty and Babilonish Professions , that are set in opposition to his Glorious Appearance in this his day . G. W. The moderate Reader is desired to Correct some Errors that have escaped the Press , whether they be Words , Letters or Points , and not impute them to the Authors . PAge 11. l. 8. read of these . p. 12. l. 37. for affirmed , r. answered . p. 18. l. 12. for no wit , r. now it . p. 21. l. 11. r. as for . l. 34. dele yet . p. 22. l. 17. for to the , dele the. p. 23. l. 33. for bare , r. bear . p. 26. l. 1. blot out them . p. 31. l. 11. r. trees . p. 34. l. 18. r. Chap. 1. p. 39. understand , or add to the names subscribed ; viz. Witnesses that these are the Priests Contradictions . p. 44. l. 4. r. passages . l. 37. for which , r. and. THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65867-e2860 Priest. Notes for div A65867-e5100 Note . Observation . Rom. 11. 32. 
A65871	----	A just enquiry into the libeller's abuse of the people called Quakers in his scandalous pamphlet, falsly stiled, Some of the Quakers principles, doctrines, laws and orders, &c. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1693 Approx. 39 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 17 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65871 Wing W1938 ESTC R38636 17812358 ocm 17812358 106676 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65871) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 106676) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1109:17) A just enquiry into the libeller's abuse of the people called Quakers in his scandalous pamphlet, falsly stiled, Some of the Quakers principles, doctrines, laws and orders, &c. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [2], 30 p. Printed and sold by T. Sowle ..., London : 1693. Attributed to Whitehead by Wing. Reproduction of original in the Cambridge University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Bugg, Francis, 1640-1724? -- Some of the Quakers principles and doctrines, laws & orders, &c. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Iust Enquiry INTO THE Libeller's Abuse OF THE People called QVAKERS , In His Scandalous Pamphlet , falsly Stiled , Some of the Quakers Principles , Doctrines , Laws and Orders , &c. They Shoot in Secret at the Perfect , &c. But God shall Shoot at them , Psal. 64. London , Printed , and Sold by T. Sowle , at the Crooked Billet in Holywell-Lane , Shoreditch , 1693. A Just Enquiry into the Libeller's abuse of the People called Quakers , &c. THere 's two or three Falacies in the very Title of the said Pamphlet . 1 st , In charging what 's contain'd therein upon the Quakers in general , as being their Principles , Doctrines , Laws and Orders , &c. Whereas in truth , divers of them are neither the Quakers Principles , Laws , nor Orders , but disown'd by the said People , though this Nameless Author has unjustly represented them , as if they were some Principles all intirely Transcribed , and that from the Quakers in general , without exception , which is a notorious abuse ; For 't is also very Obvious , That many of them are very Partially , unfairly and injuriously cited , minced , curtalized , Picktpach't , and scrap'd up , thereby wronging some former Antient Writings of perticular Persons deceased , and not here to answer for themselves ( as George Fox , Edward Burroughs , Francis Howgill , John Burnyet , William Smith , John Audland , Josiah Cole , and others , and some yet alive abused ) Others very falsly represented , being taken on Trust on an Implicit Faith , out of our Long-since Refuted Adversaries Books and Pamphlets . 2 dly , That those pretended Principles and Doctrines &c. of the Quakers ( at least many of them ) are Rendered to be of dangerous Consequence ; When we can easily make it appear that Many of them , even as cited by this Obscure Accuser , are agreeable to the holy Scriptures , and Testimonies of Holy Men , consequently not of any dangerous Consequence ( though in many things the Libeller appears very Injurious as well as Envious . ) Whereupon I enquire . 1. What dangerous Consequence can be in our Knowing or Believing our Election ( i. e. in Christ ) before the World began ? pag. 1. Ephes. 1.4 . 2. Or what dangerous Consequence in our believing or Testifying that Christ hath given us Discerning and Judgment ? Or that we are of God , and they that own God will own us , or any who are his Children ? 3. Or in our Believing the Tabernacle of God to be with us , that is with all his People whom we include as of us , or with us , who are not against us ( nor Envious , nor exalted in Pride , or Self-conceit ) but looking towards the Lord , as in every Nation and People they that truly fear God and work Righteousness , they are accepted , and so far of us . 4. What dangerous Consequence can be in asserting , That Christ's Ministry or Teaching , is to Bring up the Hearers to Perfection , to the measure of stature and fulness of Christ ? pag. 2. 5. Can none ( Quakers or others ) in these Dayes , truly declare that they are or may be moved by the Immediate Spirit and Power of God to Write or Preach without dangerous Consequence ? pag. 2 , 3. 6. What dangerous Consequence can be in asserting , That they that have the Form and not the Power , and that are not Infallible in their Counsel and Judgment in their Ministry , are none of Christ's Ministers ? pag. 3. 7. Is not the Spirit of Christ Infallible , and the Ministry thereof Infallible ? And are any Christ's Ministers who have not his Spirit to Instruct them ? pag. 3. 8. The distinction between the Letter , and the Word or Spirit , and between the Ministry of the Letter , and that of the Spirit , pag. 3 , 4. as between the Shadow and Substance , the meer Writing in outward Characters , and the holy divine Doctrines and Truths therein contained , ( or holy Scriptures as intending the same ) Is so Scriptural , that I know no true Christian will deny such distinction , muchless deem it of dangerous Consequence : ( We never esteemed or called the Holy Scriptures ( that is the Holy Doctrines , or Precepts thereof ) but a Dead Letter , &c. This Matter is fully answered and explained in a late Treatise , entituled , Antichrist in Flesh Vnmask'd ; and in many others . But yet further . Section 8. Touching the Scriptures , implying that we call them the Husk , the Letter which Killeth , Earthly and Carnal Letter , &c. This is not Justly nor truly stated , and may Cause mistake and Misapprehension , as if the Divine and Christian Doctrine and Testimonies contained in the Scriptures were included in the Term Letter , Husk , &c. which could not be the Intention of any of our Friends in that case , but of the meer outward Writings , as in Paper , and Ink , the Shadows and Types , the Legal and outward Ministration as Distinguished and Separated from that of the Spirit , Life and Substance , Cor. 3.6 , 7. Rom. 2.29 . Please also to take G. F's Explanation and Sence , that by Letter , he means Paper and Ink , but saith the Scripture the thing it speaks of is Spiritual , the Word is Spirit , Great Mystery , fol. 78. And further he Explains , viz. the Scripture it self without the Spirit that gave it forth , is a dead Letter in it self ; the Spirit is it that gave forth the Scriptures ; Gr. Mist. fol. 127. Wherein he distinguisheth between the meer Letter and the holy Scripture , between the Letter and the Doctrine , between the Writings and the Gospel or Word declared of , because the one will decay , the other is permanent , the Books and Writings in Ink and Paper will wear out , so will not the Word : Iehoiakim King of Judah could Burn Jeremiah's Roll , or Book writ with Ink by Barach , but not the Word of the Lord , nor the Words thereof ; for the same Word caused all the former Words to be Written again after the Roll was burnt , Jer. 36. This is no contempt of the Scripture , no more then it is of the Earth and the Heavens , to say they shall Wax Old and Perish . But the Word that made them , Endureth , Psal. 102.25 , 26. Heb 1.11 , 12. Dust , cannot properly be said of the holy Scriptures , or Doctrine ; but that the Letter or Writing will decay , and some pervert it ; and in setting the Shadow above the Substance , and the Letter above the Spirit , and thinking to have eternal Life therein , will not come to Christ , that they might have Life . The Devil and Serpents have perverted and abused the Scriptures , and turned the Truth thereof into a Lye. But the Truth remaineth , the Truth is Truth still , and the holy Scripture it self ( or Doctrine of Truth therein ) cannot be broken . The Husk , that intends no contempt upon the holy Scripture , but thereby intending the meer Letter or Writing , it is not the Kernel , the seed , the Living Word , Spirit or Life which the Scriptures testifie of . Those Repeated Stories and Reflections insinuated concerning Governments Monarchy , Rulers Laws , &c. pag. 4.5 , 6 , 7. Enviously and perversly Raked up by Patches , Mincings and piece-meal out of old Books , the most part writ in the Common-Wealth's Days , are plainly answered , and our Innocency cleared in several late Books , one Intituled , Christ's Lambs defended from Satan's Rage . Another , Some Reflections on some Remarks upon the said Christ's Lambs defended . Another Intituled , Innocency against Envy . Another , The Quakers Answer to a scandalous Libel , stiled , A Letter to the Quakers . All these Printed , and Sold by Thomas Northcot in George-Yard in Lumbard-street , London . So that much more time need not be spent to Answer the Libeller over again in these matters . As for outward or Civil Governments , our Peaceable and Christian Conversation , as a People , is so well known under all from first , that we need not fear secret Smiters and Libeller's unjust attempts to blast or cloud our Christian Reputation on that account , well knowing that when vve have suffered great wrong , and been sevearly persecuted by any in outvvard Povver for our tender Conscience tovvard God , he vvould be ready to Plead our Innocent Cause , as he hath many times done . And as for such Rulers or Persons in outvvard Povver , as have abused their power either by Injustice , Oppression or Persecution , they were all accountable to God , who is no Respecter of Persons ; and for any of his Servants to warn such against their Evil Ways , and of their Destruction or Overthrow , when God requires them ; this is so far from any act of Rebellion or Sedition , or unkindness either , that I think such kind of Pious Plainness and Caution seasonably given , is a token of the greatest Kindness can be expressed to the Great Men or Potentates of the Earth ; though such Friendship is rarely well resented or accepted except by such Princes and Rulers whose Hearts are tenderly inclined , as was David's , Josiah's , Hezekiah's , and such Kings of Judah , &c. as had some tender Fear towards God , and regard to his Laws in their Hearts . I do grant that several among our Friends at first and in the Common-Wealth's , days had no great affection to some sort of Monarchy , and the more doubtful thereof , because they were Jealous that thereby , such Bishops would be set up again as would renew or cause Persecution upon Conscientious Dissenters again ; For many of them came of Puritanical Families , who had deeply suffered by the former Bishops , and their Courts ( their Star-Chamber , and high Commission Court , &c. ) This caused the greater Aversness ( in many heretofore ) to such Monarchy thus considered ; But what then ? is it Just to upbraid us always as a People , and to agravate the same against us as Criminals ? Or to render us as disaffected either to Just Government or Monarchy in General without Exception ? when as good Kings and Governments we had no reason to dissafect or oppose ; and tho' we like not bad ones , who are for Persecution and Oppression , &c. we have always been true and Constant to the Doctrine of Non Resistance , and Passive Obedience , ever since we were a People ; and learned quietly to submit as Christians to the Over-ruling Hand and Providence of God in the Revolutions and Change of Governments , ( which have Eminently happen'd even in our days ) as Samuel did , though he was as much a Republican and averse to Monarchy as some called Quakers were at first , as when Israel's Requiring a King , like other Nations displeased Samuel , 1 Sam. chap. 8. Yet when a King was given them , he granted him to be the Lord 's Anointed and Chosen , 1 Sam. 10. which is something suitable to the Case of those our former Friends , for whose sakes in this Concern we are by these Apostates implicitly ( yet very unjustly ) rendered Obnoxious to the Civil Government . Some of the Libeller's false Charges and notorious abusive Perversions . 1. That the Quakers have a Spirit Given them beyond all the Fore-Fathers ( since the days of the Apostles in the Apostacy ) and they can discern who are Saints , and who are Devils , quoting G. F's Great Mystery , pag. 89. Answ. This is a notorious Perversion , this Parenthesis before being a Forgery , and not in G. F's Answer : The truth of the matter is thus , viz. Magnus Byne said , The Quakers knows a man whether he be a Saint or Devil — and they are beyond all our Fore-Fathers , &c. G. F. answers , viz. Here thou hast shewed that the Quakers have a Spirit Given them beyond all the Fore-Fathers ( since the days of the Apostles ) in the Apostacy . G. F's Parenthesis being Only [ Which we do Witness . ] His words do not intend nor import a Spirit or Attainment among the Quakers beyond all the Fore-Fathers , true Apostles , and others without exception ( as the Libeller makes them look ) but beyond all such Fore-Fathers as were in the Apostacy since the days of the true Apostles ; And what dangerous Consequence can follow thence , Pray ? Can it be of dangerous Consequence not to believe a ●●tter Attainment than Apostates had ? who th●● will Credit this Obscure Smiter to be any better than an Old Apostate ? And of what validity is his Work then ? Sect. 4. pag. 2. He attempts to prove the Quakers guilty of High Boasting , by accusing G. F. with saying he is the Son of God ; I suppose he intended a Son of God ; but take it as it is , was not Adam called the Son of God ? Luke 3.38 . G. F. preferred Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God we are sure , and owned himself to be a Servant of Christ ( as he truly was , and a Son of God too ) in his Work and Service in his day . Christ the only begotten Son of God in all things must have the preheminence ; though as many as are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God , and now are we the Sons of God , &c. 1 John 3.2 . Again , we are charged with saying , He that hath the same Spirit that raised up Jesus Christ , is Equal with God. For which Saul's Errand , pag. 8. 1654. is quoted , We deny the words as there printed ; The words [ he that hath ] should be left out ; and have reason to suppose the mistake has happen'd either in the Printing or Transcribing , ( for 't is very carelessly and badly printed ) and that contrary to G. E's . and our Principle , and to his own very words and confession a little before in the same Book , where being charged with Professing himself to be Equal with God , he possitively denys the Charge but confesses The Father and the Son are One , and that Christ and the Holy Spirit are Equa , with God , pag. 5 , 6. and to Christ Jesus both as he was of the Seed of Abraham and also as he was Equal with God ( i. e , both to his Manhood and Divinity . ) It 's therefore a gross Slander implyed against the Quakers that 't is their Boasting , Doctrine , or Principle that They or any of them are Equal with God , because they pertake of his Spirit that raised Jesus from the Dead ( and of the divine Nature and Image ) they pretend to no such Equality or Principle , neither doth G. F. but the contrary he denys it of himself , or any other Creature , as that any Creature should be Equal with the Creator , as in his Great Mystery , fol. 127. And we abhor any such Boasting . Charge . Sect. 22. Some of the Characters they give to other Ministers that are not of them . This by the way is a notorious falsehood , importing ( without exception ) that the Quakers in general give the Subsequent Characters to all other Ministers that are not of them ( here 's no exception ) this appears an Envious Forgery to sow Discord , and stir up ill will and prejudice in all other Ministers and their Hearers against us , which appears no better than a devilish Design , and a great Abomination to sow Discord among Conscientious Dissenters and others . And what Characters do they give to other Ministers , as he pretends , but such as these , viz. The Priests of the world are Thieves and Robbers , Antichrists , Conjurers , Devils , Lyars , a Viporous and Serpentine Generation , Babilons ▪ Merchants , Whited Walls , and Painted Sepulchres , Ravening Wolves , Greedy Dogs , Ambitious Pharisees , Hunting after their Prey , never satisfied , raging like Sodomites , Quoting a Brief Discovery , Printed 1653. with five Names to it . But stay , soft a little ; 1. Were these Characters given in general , or to all , other Ministers that are not of us , or not in Society with the Quakers ( so called ? ) No sure , they seem to be directed to such Priests of the World then ( mark ) as were both very Covetous , Proud , and Envious Persecutors , and there were too many such we know right well , and have , many of us deeply suffered by them , many both severe Imprisonment ( some till Death ) and spoil of Goods ; 't is true to compare such to Vipers , Serpents , Wolves , greedy Dogs , &c. may seem hard Characters and Comparisons , yet they are not unscriptural ; but their Cruel Usage of many of us , has been far heavier and harder than such Scriptaral Characters , which never were intended to all other Ministers that are not of us ; nor to any of them who are men of Moderation , Gentleness and Sobriety ; therefore the Libeller has shamefully misrepresented us in this matter . Which is fully Answered in our Treatise , Entituled , The Contemned Quaker and his Christian Religion defended against Envy and Forgery , &c. pag. 55. to pag. 66. In Sect. 30. under the Title , Hear a few of the Execrations THEY Give , &c. Is inserted a mistaken prediction against John Story , viz. This Year shalt thou dye . dat . 1. 1. Mon. 1677. Though he lived several Years after . This the Libeller has very unjustly charged ( under his general Title and Words THEY Give ) on the Quakers , for [ They ] is falsely made relative to the Quakers without exception , according to his Title , when as the said mistake , was but one man's ( i. e. S. E's ) and as such condemned , by the Quakers , and in himself also who committed the Error as to the time . Thus immorally and unjustly has the Libeller dealt by the Quakers , such Injustice , the Common justice , Laws and Custom of England allows not of , even in Criminal Cases ; a Fellon after he has answered the Law by undergoing the Condign Punishment thereof , may not afterward be upbraided as being a Thief still , much less may others that are Innocent be branded or Reproached for his Fact , but this kind of Injustice we meet withal from Lying Spirits , and malicious Apostates , who regard neither Truth nor Common Justjce in such injurious dealing . And the like measure we have in Sect. 39 ▪ about a few inconsistent and indeed unsound Expressions ( or Agreement ) alleadged against the Quakers , dated December 23. 1680. about Giving up ones whole Concern ( if required ) unto the Judgment of the Spirit of God in Mens and Womens Meetings , rather then any perticular Measure in my self , &c. Our obscure Accuser was not so ingenious nor just here , as to tell the World , that the said Agreement was only of a few in Barbades ; nor to tell the Reader the Quakers in England long since disowned it , and that those Persons themselves ( or most of them ) concern'd in it have seene and retracted their own Mistake and Error therein . As in our Paper , entituled , Some Reflections on some Remarks , pag. 6. This account is given , viz. How immoral and unjust is it to upbraid us with a pretended Order from Barbadoes ? seeing when it first came over it was disown'd by us , and our Friends in General , especially wherein it imports a Contra-distinction or Division between the Spirit in a particular Member , and the same Spirit in the Church , or opposing the perticular measure thereof in my self to the Spirit of God in Meetings , which we cannot make Good Sence of , for the same Spirit Cannot be divided ; And the Judgment that rises in the Church of God from the Spirit of Truth in any matter , comes from the same Spirit in perticular Members , before it be received in the general . And we have understood that the aforesaid pretended Order was then disowned by some perticular Friends even in Barbadoes , and afterwards revoked by them in general , and therefore not Justly to be made a Charge against them or us . Pray do but observe how implacably Envious , Unjust , and Injurious these our secret Smiters and Adversaries are ; what Reiterate ( and Charge ) perticular and personal Revoaked and Exploded Mistakes and Errors upon a People wholly Unconcerned therein ? Oh! Horrid Injustice and gross Injury ! If men should deal thus by them after they have paid their Debts , as to recharge them over and over with the same Debts , and never be satisfied , they would conclude at this rate there would be no living one by another . Or if God should deal so by you ( our secret Adversaries and Smiters in the dark ) as never to forgive nor blot out your Offences , but should always remember them against you after Repentance , Pray what would become of you ? What would be your End ? But God is both Just and Merciful , tho' you are neither , you bear no resemblance of Him in this your Injustice and Implacableness . However we doubt not but our just and good God will plead our Innocent Cause with you implacably envious Persons and our injurious Enemies and Apostates . In the 31. Sect. Some nonsence , Long-since writ by S. E. about G. F. and denied by the Quakers , is again not only reitterrated , but G. Whitehead ( i. e. my self ) unjustly accused with Excusing the same , for which my hidden Accuser Quotes Serious Search , pag. 58. &c. And also Innocency against Envy , pag. 18. Wherein he has dealt very unfairly and falsly by me , for in neither do I excuse S E's words in that case , but deny them in the first , as unsafe . In the second , as being both Nonsence , and not to be stood by . How did I herein stand by S. E's . words or challenge ? What in deeming them unsafe and Nonsence , and not to be stood by ? See Serious Search , pag. 58.59 . And Innocency against Envy , pag. 18. Which plainly clear me from the accusation before . All impartial Readers may take it for granted that these secret Smiters will make little Conscience of wronging the dead ( many whereof being Reproachfully accused in the said Pamphlet ) when they can thus wrong the living , as the Libeller has done by me in a case so notorious as this is , by charging me to excuse that which I plainly declare to be Nonsence and not to be stood by ; but only excused the intention of the Writter on his own Explanation as declared in our Friends Book Judas and the Jews , pag. 75. And not the Nonsence of his words in his challenge , but corrected the incoherence by his own declared intention accordingly , as where he applies [ The World was made by him ] only to Christ. Innocency &c. pag. 18. Wherein I aimed at nothing but Truth and Justice on all hands , which I prefer to all Personal fame and interests , and through the Lord's goodness have long resolved not to decline or conceal Truth to vindicate or excuse Error or mistake in any ; Concerning the Charge against several Ministers of some divine Attributions to G. F. in two Letters pretended , the first said to be from Josiah Cole , in 1658. ( above thirty four years ago . ) The other from John Audland , and dated from Bristol , 1665. Whereas in Thomas Camm's account , ( who was much conversant with John Audland in his last Sickness ) 'T is declared ( in his Testimony ) That J.A. finisht his Course here in the 1st Month , 1663. And the same Account in a late Letter to me , Tho. Camm confirms according to their Register of Burials , &c. in Westmorland , That John Audland was buried the 24th of the 1st . Month , 1663. being the very last day of that Year , according to the usual beginning of the Year on the 25 th of the same ; so that John Audland dyed about two Years before the date of the said pretended Letter from him to G. F. How could he then write the Letter ( to G. F. ) two years after he was dead ? That pretended to be from J. C. our Adversary says , Is vindicated by W. P. and other Chief Quakers in Judas and the Jews . pag. 44.45 , 46. Is it so ? Yet does he not attempt to refute that Vindication ; which tho' it was of the Substance of it only ; Supposing the Copy for granted as cited , yet I still question the Copy whether true in all parts as I have done , therefore shall not undertake to Warrant it in every part●clar or word in it , as it has been divers times slung at us , both by F. Bugg , and some Baptists , and yet each apparently vary in their own Recital thereof , in their Pamphlets , as F. B. has done in his One Blow more , pag. 7.1691 . And in his Battering Rams , pag. 29.1690.91 . Wherein tho' I have cause still to Question the Verity and Authority of his Copy , yet cannot find nor see that he can justly infer either Idolatry or Blasphemy on Josiah Cole in particular , muchless against the Quakers in General from any thing as yet reiterated out of his pretended Letter , by — Bugg , Baptists or the Libeller , § . 31. But further to clear Josiah Cole , and his Friends from their Reproach of Idolatry and Blasphemy ( in relation to G. F. or any other Creature ) as utterly contrary to his Christian Principle and Profession . We 'l have recourse to his own plain Testimonies on Record , for and in behalf of the same Lord Jesus Christ , of whom the holy Scriptures testifie , in his positively declaring No other Name under Heaven to be saved from Sin by , but HIS who preached himself the Light of the World , and who Lighteth every Man that cometh into the World , John 1.9 . and against the Pope and Church of Rome and the Pope's Headship , affirming that Christ never ordained a Visible Head to his Church , but that Christ is the Head and Foundation , and that Prophet whom Moses prophecyed of , whom the People are to hear in ALL things , Deut. 18.15 . and that Christ is the Governour and Head of the People called Quakers , and their Church . And that Christ is the Word which was in the Beginning with God , Joh. 1.1 . And that Christ was the Spiritual Rock which followed Israel , and which they all drunk of , 1 Cor. 104. And that Christ ascended far above all Heavens , that he might fill all things , Ephes. 4. Thus far Josiah Cole in the Collection of his Books , pag. 36.60.94.100.105.320 , 321 , 332. where more at large he magnifies our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ in his divine Being and Offices . Therefore our Adversaries that have reproached him and us on is account with Idolatry and Blasphemy , or wresting Christ's Scepter out of his Hands ( as some have done ) have very grosly defamed him and others , and shewn their inveterate Malice and Persecuting Antichristian Spirit , which the righteous Lord will rebuke . And as for G. F. who was an Eminent Instrument in the Lord's hand for the good of many ; he was so far from opposing or denying Christ , or his divine Offices , Dignity , Divinity , ( or Blessed Manhood ) and so far from accepting or assuming to himself any such Dignity or Honour only peculiar , to Jesus Christ , That he did own himself a Servant of our Lord Jesus Christ , and did Preach and Pray in his Name , and to him , and not in his own , as many Thousands can Testifie . [ These last Lines the Libeller has very unfairly omitted and concealed in his recital of my words , in his 33. Article against me , pag. 13. out of Innocency against Envy , pag. 18. Thus it has been the Common Course of our most Envious Adversaries to conceal what ever in our Writings tends most to clear us . ] And G. ● . is more fully Cleared from ●hese Adversaries Reproach in this matter by his own naked and innocent TESTIMONY of WHAT we believe in behalf of Christ , both as God and Man , ( according to the Holy Scriptures ) and of His Miraculous Conception by the holy Ghost , and being Born of the Virgin Mary , and of his Sufferings , Death , Resurrection and Ascention , &c. Printed , 1677. Farther testifying to his Divinity , Great Mystery , fol. 254 That by Christ ( the Light ) all things were made and created , and that he was Glorified with the Father before the world began , Of whom the Scriptures testifies ; And that this Christ is the same to day , yesterday and forever , that the Saints came to Witness WITHIN them , Not another Christ , nor many Christs . With many more sincere Confessions ( to the true and very Christ of God ) of the same import , which would fill a Volumn to recite ; a few whereof being sufficient to clear both G. F. and us from the false and foul imputations of Idolitry and Blasphemy , or denying the One true and ever Blessed Lord Jesus Christ , ( of whom the Holy Scriptures Testifie ) and from promoteing or adoreing any other Man ( or Creature ) in Christ's sted , as we have been most unjustly defamed , and the Righteous God knows and will plead our Innocency and Clear us in this matter , we doubt not . And as to that pretended to be John Audland's Letter to G. F. Sect. 32. There 's 16. or 17. lines of Mater added in it ; more than are ( in F. B : 's Coppy One Blow more page 7. Thus confused and varied Transcripts are cast upon us to defame and brand us with Idolitry , &c. without either Produceing us the Original Leters pretended to be from I. C. and I. A. or any Credible Authority to prove the verity of their differant Copies , tho' demanded both of Bugg , Baptists and Athenians ( so called ) since we both questioned their broken Printed Copies , with their dashes — and & c's . And now I still Question the Truth of this as enlarged against John Audland , and we disown it as it is ; let the Libeller Produce the Original Letters or sufficient Authority of Credit ( and no parties against us ) to prove his Copy exactly true in all parts and perticles thereof , where there 's any stress of the Sence concerned ; for the Charge is high , and requires strict proof in all Essential points ( as common Law and Justice doth of Indictments in Criminal Cases ) otherwise our Adversary's Copy of the said Letter , may be of as much Credit , as that J. A. writ it two Years after he was dead ( as before . ) Both J. A. and J. C. were well known to many , and still remembred to be sincere upright hearted Men , fearing God , and eschewing Evil , who truly honoured and preached Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God , our blessed Lord and Saviour , as their own Testimonies on Record do still plainly Evince ; And that John Audland was a man of more Wisdom , and of a more sensible Christian Spirit than to detract from , or lessen the Honour , Glory or Dignity only due and peculiar to Jesus Christ , or to attribute the same to any other , or to prefer G. F. or any Man or Creature else ( as the Fountain of Life ) in Christ's stead , but only as an Instrument in God's hand , for the Turning of many from Darkness to Light , even to Jesus Christ , the true Light , for Life and Salvation : Besides , 't is no new thing for sincere Christians to praise the Lord God , and to pray to him , and to confess to the Power and Goodness of God in Christ Jesus , the Fountain of Life , even in a Letter or Epistle to a Friend or Friends , as the Martyrs ( divers of them ) did in their Letters , which if such their Confessions , &c. had been ( by their Adversaries , ) turned and applied to the Persons or Friends they writ unto , it had been a very foul abuse and perversion of their Letters and Intentions ; and so may this be to defame J. A. and his Friends for his sake , for any thing yet appears to the contrary ; His confessions to Jesus Christ as the Fountain of Life and Strength , and to his Power , &c. may possibly be wrongfully turned and attributed to another ; If we might see the very Letter it self from J. A. we could say more to it , to manifest and clear the Truth . To conclude this Point ; 1 st . I find not that the said Letter is directed and applied by John Audland himself unto G. Fox . 2 dly , I do not approve thereof as cited and directed by our Adversaries ( with the date of 1665. ) unto G. F. As for John Audland's Christian Principle and clearness in behalf of Jesus Christ , we have reason Charitably to credit his own Testimonies , rather than Libels , or any thing his and our Adversaries enviously suggest , and turn or throw upon him ( or us ) to defame him and his Christian Reputation . Now they know he is gone , he is not here to answer for himself , therefore his own Innocent undoubted Testimonies on Record shall speak for him ( and his holy Respect and Honour as is only due to the very Christ of God ) and against his Enemies . In behalf of Jesus Christ , according to the Holy Scriptures ; John Audland thus writes , The Lord our Righteousness ( by whose Grace we are saved ) hath chosen us in Christ Jesus , who hath all Power and Authority committed unto him , and upon whose Shoulders the Government is laid , pag. 116. Of the Collection of the Books and written Epistles of John Camm and John Audland . And further , Christ Jesus , since the Fall of Adam , hath perfectly fulfilled the Law of God , and there is Salvation in NO OTHER , pag. 117. ibid. Again , ( of Christ ) The true Shepherd laid down his Life for the Sheep , and he is the Door where no Thief can enter , &c. pag. 120 Christ is not born by the will of man , pag. 122. That Christ expounded the Scriptures , was never denyed by us , he opened their Understandings to understand the Scriptures — and the Spirit of Christ is one in all his Saints , pag. 124. Dear Hearts , other Foundation can no man lay , then that which is laid already , which is Christ Jesus the Light of the World , the Way to Life and Everlasting Rest , &c. pag. 157. Let nothing seperate you from the Love of God in Christ Jesus our Light , our Life , and our Redeemer , pag. 161. I must walk according to the Commands of Christ and his Apostles , p. 180. Walking in the Spirit which mortifies the Deeds of the Flesh , being subject to the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ ; here is rest to the Soul , pag. 188. We see the Way of Life to all that believe in the Name of the Lord Jesus , p. 190. The Jews had a Law , by which they Judged the HOLY ONE that he ought to dye , pag. 202. Christ said , Love your Enemies , Pray for them that Persecute you , p. 203. — We find acceptance with God through Jesus Christ , p. 222. — You are washed , sanctified , and justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus , and by the Spirit of our God , pag. 250. — The Seed of the Woman which all the Promises are unto , Yea and Amen in Christ ( by which the Serpent's Head is bruised ) is but one , which Seed is Christ , pag. 269. Dear Hearts ▪ walk in the pure Eternal Love and Light of God , that so you may come to the pure Life of God , to follow the Captain of your Salvation , who was made perfect through Sufferings , p. 275 — They ( i.e. the holy Prophets ) prophesied of Christ , who was born not by the Will of Man , supposed to be the Son of Joseph , which was the Son of God , pag. 287. These Passages are ( as many more might be ) truly Collected out of John Audland's Works and Writings to shew . 1 st , That he truly owned and honoured the true Christ , the only begotten Son of God according to the holy Scriptures . 2 dly , That therefore no divine Attributations , Confessions , Honour or Worship ( only due and peculiar to our Lord Jesus Christ ) could he ever intend to any other besides him . 3 dly , These of J. A. his Free and Voluntary Confessions to the very Christ of God , and his Light and Life , &c. are plain Indications of his clearness from the gross and absurd Imputations of Idolatry and Blasphemy wickedly Insinuated by his and our Adversaries . 4 thly , And how easily may such Apostate Adversaries wrong the Dead , when they make no Conscience to wrong the Living , as they have done in plain matter of Fact ? and what Credit then can their Scandalous Pamphlets , or their Envious and defaming Suggestions and Reproaches ( many whereof are omitted here ) be of , to any impartial Readers , or Persons indifferent ? There are divers of those other Articles exhibited by the said Libeller in the said Pamphlet ( which are truly cited , and owned by us ) which I need not vindicate , until the Libeller come forth , and make his Objections , and own his said Pamphlet , stiled , Some of the Quakers Principles , &c. and subscribe his Name thereunto . George Whitehead London in the 1 st Month , 1693. THE END . 
A65869	----	Innocency triumphant over insolency and outrage of a self-condemned apostate in answer to Francis Bugg's most abusive and scandalous book, falsely stiled, New Rome arraigned &c., and in defence of the Christian testimony of G. Whitehead and eleven witnesses against the great defamation of perjury and pillory, unjustly cast upon them by the said F.B. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1693 Approx. 101 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 43 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65869 Wing W1935 ESTC R24554 08246766 ocm 08246766 41162 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65869) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 41162) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1244:8) Innocency triumphant over insolency and outrage of a self-condemned apostate in answer to Francis Bugg's most abusive and scandalous book, falsely stiled, New Rome arraigned &c., and in defence of the Christian testimony of G. Whitehead and eleven witnesses against the great defamation of perjury and pillory, unjustly cast upon them by the said F.B. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [6], 72 p. Printed for Thomas Northcott, London : 1693. Introduction signed: G. Whitehead. Errata: p. 70. Reproduction of original in the Cambridge University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Bugg, Francis, 1640-1724? Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Melanie Sanders Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Melanie Sanders Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Innocency Triumphant OVER Insolency and Outrage OF A Self-Condemn'd APOSTATE : IN ANSWER To Francis Bugg's most Abusive and Scandalous Book , falsly Stiled ; New Rome Arraigned , &c. AND In Defence of the Christian Testimony of G. Whitehead and Eleven Witnesses , against the great Defamation of Perjury and Pillory , unjustly cast upon them by the said F. B. His Mischief shall return upon his own Head. London , Printed for Thomas Northcott , in George-Yard in Lombard-street , 1693. INTRODUCTION Our Christian Testimony reassum'd in the Affirmative . TO all Christian , Sober , Impartial and Judicious People , to whom these Presents shall come , Salutation in the Love and Good Will of the only true God , and his dear Son Jesus Christ , whom he hath sent . To prevent Mistake , and remove Misrepresentation in the Matters following , these are sincerely to Testifie and Declare , That , I. We sincerely own , profess and confess Jesus to be the Christ , even the same Jesus Christ who was born of the Virgin Mary at Bethlehem in Judaea , Matth. 2. suffered Death upon the Cross without the Gates of Jerusalem , was quickned and raised again by the Power of God , and ascended into Heaven and Glory , according to the Scriptures . II. We give Witness only to this Christ , as being the very Christ , the only Begotten Son of God and confess both his Coming in the Flesh and in the Spirit , according to holy Scripture-Testimony . III. Though this Christ the only begotten Son of God , took Flesh and came of the Seed of Abraham according to the Flesh , and suffered death in the Flesh ; yet his Flesh ( or Body prepared for him ) did not see Corruption ; it did not corrupt , but was raised again from the dead ; consequently did not perish , nor is his Body of a perishing Nature , but a glorified Body , like unto which , we believe , our's shall be changed and fashioned , Phil. 3. IV. The Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament , namely , the holy Doctrine and divine Precepts therein , were first given by divine Inspiration ( as we have confessed unto Authority ) and in no wise to be contemn'd , but seriously read , believed and fulfilled , as the Spirit of the Lord giveth Vnderstanding and Ability , being the Life of the Scripture , and without which the meer Letter and all Preaching therefrom in Man's Will is dead and ineffectual . V. The Protestant Religion considered in the primitive Purity of it ( in opposition to Popery ) and all sincere Protestants , who desire a clear and thorow Reformation from all Idolatry and Superstition , we have a tender Respect to them , and sincerely desire , that the holy Scripture and the Gospel Ministry , true Worship , Prayer , Obedience of Faith and Christianity in its purity may be promoted , grow and increase in Spirit , Life and Power among Christians . VI. The divine Precepts and Doctrine contain'd in the holy Scriptures , we must needs believe to be Holy and Blessed , not only because they proceed from the holy Spirit , but also because they require Holiness and Righteousness in Life and Practice , under the several Dispensations of God to Mankind . VII . We own no such Saying , as that the holy Doctrine or divine Precepts , of Scripture is either Dust , Death or the Serpents Meat , but truly profitable to us by the Assistance of God's Holy Spirit given to us ; although the false Prophets Preaching was but compared to the Chaff ( or Husk ) when they stole even the words of the true , Jer. 23. And Men of corrupt minds , by perverting the holy Scriptures , and Preaching in their earthly Wisdom from the Letter and not from the Spirit of Christ , do bring Darkness and Death over many ; and also strengthen the hands of evil Doers , that they may not forsake their Sins , whereby the Serpent , the Enemy of the Soul , is gratified , and many led captivate at his will , when indulg'd and sooth'd up in their sins by such literal and lifeless Preachers , as pervert the holy Scriptures to ther own and others Destruction . VIII . The promised Messiah , of whom the holy Prophets give witness , is the very Christ of God , even that Jesus Christ who was born of the Virgin , who in the fulness of time came in the Flesh , and was made like unto us in all things , sin only excepted , as the Scripture testifies . Yet , IX . The glorious Body of Christ is not now like ours , nor of an Earthy perishing Nature , but Heavenly , Spiritual and most Glorious , far excelling all Terrestrial Bodies . X. Our Ministers do not Teach , that the Name of Jesus and Christ belong to every Member in the Body ( or Church ) as amply , as to Christ the Head ; but that the Divine Anointing ( to which the Name Christ hath relation ) virtually is in some Measure or Degree , afforded to every Member of his Body , but not so amply as to Him the Head , ( nor for any Member to be called Christ , but a Christian ) because Christ received the Anointing , the Holy Spirit , not by Measure , but in Fulness ; and because he is the Head of the Body the Church . XI . 'T is really contrary to our Faith and Principle , to make Christ Jesus himself only a Figure , a Vail or Garment , He being the Substance and end of all Figures , Types and Shadows ; yet his Flesh was call'd the Vail , Heb. 10. and he took upon him the Form of a Servant , and was made like unto Men , and was found in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Shape or Figure of a Man , Phil. 2.6 , 7. XII . F. Bugg's pretended Examination , Tryal , and Conviction of Perjury against G. Whitehead and Eleven Witnesses , and saying that , for the same they are put in the Pillory , We sincerely and solemnly Testifie against it all , as a great Lye , Scandal and Defamation , and as a piece of Mockery , Romantick Forgery , and Fools Tragedy , contrived by the said F. B. to render them Odious and Ridiculous , and that no such Examination , Tryal , Conviction or Penalty was ever really Acted or Inflicted on G. W. or the Witnesses aforesaid . Writ in the behalf of Truth , and it's Friends concerned , and hereafter mentioned . By G. Whitehead I. The Testimony of the Twelve Witnesses against Fr. Bugg's great Abuse , reassum'd and enlarg'd in the Negative , or Denial of his false Charge and Perversions . WE whose Names are hereunto Subscrib'd , in behalf of our selves , and of the Christian Society and People commonly called Quakers ( to whom we belong ) do sincerely and solemnly , and in the Fear of God , testifie and declare , That Francis Bugg in his late great Book , stiled , New Rome Vnmask'd , hath most injuriously and falsly Accused and Charg'd the said People and their Ministers , as followeth . I. With denying Christ Jesus , who was born of the Virgin Mary , who suffered without the Gates of Jerusalem , rose again and ascended into Heaven , &c. And that they believe and say , That they cannot call Him Christ , Chap. 3. p. 16. and Epistle to Bereans : P. 2. of his New Rome Unmask'd . II. That the Quakers Prophets give witness to G. Fox INSTEAD of this Christ ; that they call Him ( G. F. ) the Branch , the Star , the Son of Righteousness ; and put the North of England for the Town of Bethlehem . Epistle to the Bereans , and p. 81. III. That they ( i. e. the Quakers ) say , His Body ( viz. Christ's Body ) was of an earthly perishing Nature . Epist. ibid. Remark on Creed 3. IV. That they say , The HOLY SCRIPTURE is Carnal , Dust , Death , and Killeth , &c. Epist. ibid. on Cr. 6. and p. 78. And to aggravate Matters against the Quakers , F. B. most unjustly and maliciously affirms their Creed to be Anti-Christian , Blasphemous , Idolatrous , if not a Compound of all Heresies . Epist. ibid. on Cr. 6. V. That if they should Sing , clap their Hands , or leap for Joy , then might all true Protestants wring their Hands , mourn and lament ; for they would soon see ALL THINGS turn'd upside down . For instance ( saith F. Bugg ) down with the Holy Scriptures ; down with the Ministers of the Gospel , &c. down with the Lord's Prayer , the Ten Commandments , and the Apostles Creed , and all that bears the face of true Christianity . [ This he unjustly insinuates against the People called Quakers in his New Rome Arraigned , Epist. to Bereans , p. 12 , 13. ] VI. That they ( speaking of the Quakers ) do not believe the Doctrine and Precepts contained in the Bible , to be Holy and Blessed . Apol. Introd . p. 7 , 8 , 9 , 14. [ He might as well tell us , we must not believe our own Eyes , but put them out and see with his ; he would destroy our own Belief , to impose false Creeds on us . ] VII . That THESE Quakers , who pretend to own the PRECEPTS and DOCTRINE of the Bible to be Holy and Blessed , yet say , 't is Dust and Death , the Serpents meats , & . Apol. Introd . p. 18. [ We do not believe any of these Quakers ever so said of the Precepts and Doctrine , nor do they own any such saying ] VIII . That this same Jesus ( who was born of the Virgin , this Messiah or Son of God ) the Quakers say , they cannot call Christ. New Rome Arraign'd , p. 26. [ But where do we thus say of this Messiah ? F. B. falsly makes his own Consequence our Saying . ] IX . That they teach , That the Body of Christ is like ours , of an earthly perishing Nature . Ibid. p. 30. [ Where do we teach that Christ's Body is so ? We deny it . ] X. That the Quakers teach , That the Name Jesus and Christ belong to every Member in the Body , as amply as to Christ the Head. Ibid. p. 47. [ Where proves he as amply ? ] XI . That the Quakers would make Christ only a Figure , a Vail , a Garment , who is the Substance of all Figures ( imply'd by way of Question Ibid. p. 58. ) [ Where proves he only a Figure ? &c. ] And now seeing F. B. pretends plain Matter of Fact against us , and saith , viz. That to My Knowledge I have not set down one Line or Word as their's , which is not their's , p. 22. And also saith , I love to keep to Matter of Fact , p. 59. Ibid. Therefore we plead Not Guilty , both to the Manner and Form of these his Charges ( or Indictment ) and to Matter of Fact , as in Words laid down by him ; and in the holy Fear of Almighty God , and in behalf of the said Christian Society and People , declare and testifie , That all these his recited Accusations , and all other of the same kind , or naturally depending thereupon , are utterly false , wicked and malicious ; and never so believed , nor ( in words ) affirmed or intended by us , nor as in the same words charg'd against us ; but expresly contrary to our Christian perswasion , Principle , Profession and Testimony ( as before re-assumed in the Affirmative ) as we also sincerely believe , they are contrary to the Principle , Intentions , meaning and Profession of our Friends and Ministers of Jesus Christ in Communion with us . XII . And further , that the said F. Bugg ( being pufft up with Pride , Self-conceit , deadly Malice and abominable Outrage , scorn and derision against the peaceable people called Quakers , and to the reproach of Religion and Christianity ) hath most maliciously invented , fram'd and forg'd a fictitious Judicature , an Extra — Judicial and Mock — Court or Tragedy , thereby notoriously defaming and Scandalising Peaceable Subjects , not only G. Whitehead , but Eleven Witnesses , who Signed the aforesaid Testimony , who ( he falsly saith ) are examined , try'd and convicted of Perjury , and for the same put into the Pillory , as in his Title-page . And to make a flourish upon such his Scandalous Forgery and Romance , he hath erected the Form or Figure of a Pillory , and twelve Pictures in it , with the first Letters of their Names over ther Heads , and the word Perjury set over them in the middle ; which is all but an Idle fictious Romantick Tragedy of his own malicious inventing and framing ; never such a thing having been in reality . He proceeds to his Ridiculous Tryal and Examination as followeth , viz. F. Bugg , come Tho. Green , what canst thou say for thy self ? How came it to Pass that G. W. drew you into this snare ? You cannot but know that he hath as little (1) Love for you as he had for W. D. who when a false Report was once raised on him ( as there have been of others ) he and A. P. laughed (2) and rejoyc'd at it , you must needs also know , That when W. D. came to London , it was frequent with G.W. to go (3) out of Town he was observed to avoid his company ; and do you think that he hath more Love for you J. C. (4) and others of your frame and temper than he had for W. D. I tell you nay . Tho Green. I know George Whitehead as well as thee , he never could draw me in before , and if thou wilt excuse me now , I hope it will be a warning to me never to commit the like Errour . F. Bugg , well Thomas , I cannot but discharge you , and you are discharged ; go in peace , and do no more so , least a worse thing come upon you . F. Bugg , come James Park , thou dry Stick , thou formal insignificant Preacher ; who not only imitates G ▪ W. in his preaching , but follows him in his lying ; what canst thou say , why Sentence of Perjury may not be pronounced against you ? come , do not hang down your Head , but look uP like a Man , and let me hear what you can say for your self . James Park , I am a lover of the Women's Meetings , for when I was robb'd , I felt benefit of them : I will stand by G.W. what he is , I am ; what he says , I will avouch ; what he writes , I will Subscribe ; whither he goes , I will go ; I will stand by G. W. in all things what ever I suffer . F. Bugg , come Benjamin Antrobus , what sayest thou for thy self , why Sentence of Perjury should not be pronounced against thee ? Come stand up , speak like a Man , answer for thy self . Benjamin Antrobus , I once committed a fault about taking up my Freedom , and they constrained me to acknowledge my transgression against their Orders , or else I had lost a good prize , I am now their Servant . If they write , I dare not but subscribe , what ever I suffer , do as thou wilt . F. Bugg , come Samuel Waldenfield , thou seeming Zealot , and John Vaughton , and John Butcher , Gilbert Laity , Theodore Eccleston , Richard Needham , Francis Etteridge , John Bowater , William Robinson , &c. what can you say , why Sentence of Perjury should not be pronounced against you upon your own proposals to Authority ? S. W. And the rest , we are like Children sitting in the Market , if G. W. Pipe we Dance ; if he write a Certificate , whether true or false , we Subscribe ; and now ●ccording to the old Proverb , the Blind leads the Blind , until we are fallen into the Ditch of Error and Perjury together , and We are fallen into a sad Dilemma , and none will help Us , nor none will pitty Us. F. Bugg , Come G. W. thou old Make-bate and Cunning Sophister , what canst thou say for thy self and thy Proselites , who write after thy Copy ? After other Fictions , and Bugg's pretending to sum up the Evidence , and to speak both to matter of Fact , and matter of Law to his pretended Jury ; he feigns his Jury to bring us in Guilty . Thus , viz. Jury , Guilty of the Matter charged , and all things relating thereunto , or depending thereupon , and that of PERJVRY . Against all which pretended Proceeding , Trial and Examination invented and feigned by F. Bugg , we solemnly and sincerely testifie , as both a wicked , false and malicious Forgery , to defame and scandalize both our Christian and Civil Reputation , and against the said F. B. as an unjust Judge , false Accuser and false Witness ; and that his Proceeding , Trial and Judicature are both Illegal , Presumptuous and Arbitrary . Signed in behalf of our selves , and the rest of our Friends concern'd . George Whitehead , Gilb. Latey , John Bowater , John Butcher . Rich. Needham , William Robinson : I do further solemnly and in good Conscience Testifie and Declare , That I find no cause in the least to retract or receed from our Negative Testimony before recited against Fra. Bugg's Perversions , and his grosly Misrepresenting us about Jesus Christ and the Holy Scripture ; and for which our Testimony , F. B. hath most unjustly rendred us Perjured Persons . Hereunto I subscribe , G. Whitehead . II. The aforesaid Testimony Vindicated against Fr. Bugg his gross Abuses and foul Perversions herein examined . BY the way 't is to be noted , That in this mock Tryal and Court of Judicature , presumptuously Erected and Feigned by Fr. Bugg . He makes himself both Judge , Accuser , Witness and Jury , and also forges the Quakers Answers ( without taking the least Notice of our own proper Answers to his Objections in our Books , only impertinently cites three or four Lines out of G. W.'s Charitable Essay for his Answer , p. 7. Though in none of these Instances cited against us , can we find those words as charged by him , viz. That the Quakers say , The Holy Scripture is Carnal , Dust , Death and Killeth , &c. or that they deny Jesus to be The Christ , &c. And 't is evident , That F. B. is not able to make Replication or Answer to our single sheet , Intituled , A Charitable Essay . Nor to clear himself from the Arguments and Inversions upon him therein , concerning his feigned Creed and false Charges against the Quakers , but gives the greatest part of that Sheet ( and the most substantial Matters that are in it to clear us ) the go by ; so it remains against him unrefuted . His pretended Evidence , That we deny Christ Jesus , &c. and that we cannot call Him Christ , is from Isaac Pennington's Questions to Professors , wherein he calls the Body or Flesh ( which the Son of God took upon him ) the Vail , &c. And what then ? Does this prove we deny Christ Jesus , that was born of the Virgin ? Did not the Apostle say , he consecrated a new and living way through the Vail , that is to say , his Flesh ? Heb. 10.20 . Did the Apostle herein deny Jesus to be Christ ? No sure . But what if I. P. said , he could not call the bodily Garment or Vail Christ ? ( that is ) the entire Christ ; or the Body ( which was prepared for him ) chiefly , and in the first place , Christ ; as he Explains his own words . Does this deny Him ( the Son of God ) to be Christ ? Surely no. Is the masculine [ Him ] properly relative to the Neuter [ Body ] distinct from the Soul ? I do not think that to be proper ( or Grammatical ) Sence . The word [ It ] is relative to Body , but [ Him ] to our Lord Jesus Christ himself . For Joseph went unto Pilate , and asked the Body of Jesus , and took It down , and wrapped It in a Linnen Cloath and laid It in a Tomb , Luke 23.52 , 53. Which is also called the Body of the Lord Jesus , Chap. 24.3 . Yet the entire Messiah or Christ of God , is not to be divided in Body or Soul. And Isaac Pennington did not say he could not call Him Christ , who was both God and Man , Immannuel and the Man Christ Jesus the Messiah . First , His Charge ; That the Quakers believe and say , They cannot call Him Christ that was born of the Virgin. I cannot find these words either as believed or said by the Quakers in any of Bugg's Quotations , either out of Is. Pennington's Questions , or any other ; and therefore I desire him in his next , to shew me expresly , where the Quakers say they cannot call Him Christ , that was born of the Virgin , &c. if he can , I can as expresly deny that saying ; for I have told him the contrary in my Charitable Essay . Secondly , I cannot find ( nor believe ) that the Quakers call Geo. Fox the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness . In the Instance quoted by F. Bugg , p. 34. I find not G. Fox mentioned in that Citation ; but instead thereof F. Bugg questions it in the Margin thus ; viz. Pray who do you account this Branch , if not G. Fox ? I say , who else did you assign these Titles to ? Was it to G , FOX , or the Light in him ? Pray distinguish in your next . Thus he now questions that which before he has possitively charged over and over . Thus instead of Proof , he meerly beggs the Question , and so whirles about begging Questions ; and not only so , but ( like an unjust Judge ) has condemn'd us as perjur'd Persons , yea , even a pack of false Witnesses and perjur'd Persons for denying his Charge , p. 33. And this is not all , but he has condemn'd us to the Pillory too with his ridiculous Figure thereof , in his Epistle to the Bereans ( as before ) But now , upon Tryal and Enquiry , he is fain to question Matters of Fact , after his Condemnation and such his Execution . Thus preposterous is this unjust Judge in his arbitrary Proceedings , and scandalous Treatment against us . And his Consequence of the Quakers giving Witness to G. Fox Instead of Christ follows not from such his begging Questions , his lame Defective and false Evidence ; and we are sure it's contrary to our Faith and Testimony — For our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ , of whom the Holy Scriptures Testifie , who is the Branch , the Morning Star , the Sun of Righteousness , and hath spiritually risen both in the North , South , East and West of England , and other Parts , even in the Hearts and Souls of many Thousands , and G. F. and many others only his Servants and Ministers . F. Bugg's other consequence , That they ( i. e. Quakers ) put the North of England for the Town of Bethlehem . 'T is also a notorious falshood deduced from his other falshoods , which is but adding one Lie to another . Thirdly , I neither do believe , nor can find , that the Quakers say , Christ's Body , either was , or is , of an earthy perishing Nature ( as F. B. hath frequently charged it upon Isaac Pennington , and consequently upon the Quakers Ministers , for his sake , but that the Flesh and Blood of our Nature ( and as 't is in us ) is of an Earthly perishing Nature , whereas Christs Flesh saw no Corruption , it did not Corrupt ; * And therefore it were a very great Ignorance and Absurdity for any to say , that his Body ( which is chang'd and glorified ) is of an Earthy and perishing Nature , he being Ascended into Glory . This is answer'd in our Charitable Essay , p. 4. and Unrefuted by F. B. And I still charge it upon him as a Lie , that the Quakers say Christ's Body , either was , or now is , of a perishing Nature . Fourthly , I do not find in F. Bugg's Instances and Quotations , nor yet in any of our Friends Books , that the Quakers say , The Holy Scripture is either Carnal , Dust , Death , or killeth , &c. ( These are not our Words , he wrongs us in Fact ) but that the Letter killeth , and is dead . And did not the Holy Apostle say , The Letter killeth , but the Spirit giveth Life ? And did he not speak of the Ministration of Death Written ? 2 Cor. 3.6 , 7. Yet he did not contemn , but own the Holy Scriptures , as able to make the Man of God Wise unto Salvation through Faith in Christ , 2 Tim. 3.15 , 16. In the Book Cited by F. B. News out of the North , p. 14. the Words he chiefly picks out , and Objects , are , viz. Their Gospel is dust [ it's not the Gospel ] Mathew , Mark , Luke and John , which is the Letter [ not their Doctrine , but the meer Letter or Writing . ] The Words should rather be thus Transposed , viz. Their Gospel is dust , who put the Letter ( or four Books of Mathew , Mark , Luke and John ) for the Gospel , without distinction . Such also have put the Letter or Writings for the Light , and the Letter for the Word , and for the Gospel , yea for Eternal Life , consequently for Christ , &c. Some clapping hands upon the Book , saying , This Book is the Word of God , the Gospel , you must have Eternal Life here , such Life-less Preachers we have often met withal . Though it 's not my place Litterally to excuse these Expressions as laid down before , yet I cannot take this Instance for any real Proof or clear Evidence of matter of Fact as charged , viz. That the Quakers say , the Holy Scripture is Carnal Dust , Death , &c. as he chargeth Us ; yet if F. B. can fairly prove that any of Us have expresly said , or said That the Gospel-Doctrine contained in the four Books of Mathew , Mark , Luke and John is Dust , or but the Letter that killeth . We do , and shall positively disown it : This I fairly proffer him : However , the said Author's intention and meaning ought justly and charitably to be considered and compared with some other passages in the said Treatise which I take to be thus , viz. by Their Gospel is Dust , i. e. the false Ministers Preaching their own conceivings and immaginations on Scripture for Gospel , and by Matthew , Mark ▪ Luke and John being the Letter , as not meant either of those holy Men or their Evangelical Doctrine , but to the meer Letter or Writing in the four Books abstractly considered as in Paper and Ink ; and false Ministers dead Preaching and Commenting thereupon , without the Spirit , Life or Power of Christ Jesus ; like as the false Prophets , who though they stole the true Prophets Words , yet their Preaching was compared but to the Chaff ( or Husk , &c. ) Jer. 23.28 , 30. Accordingly the same Treatise before quoted the Reflects on these Hipocrites , Proud , Covetous and Idolatrous Priests , who Preach their own Words , Imaginations and Conceivings , painting themselves with the Words of the Prophets , Christ and his Apostles ; and teach People , They shall never overcome their Sins in this Life , calling such Preaching the Gospel . This is their Gospel intended before ( News out of the North , p. 12 , 13 , 14. ) yet falsely pretend Matthew , Mark , Luke and John to be their Gospel . There are many substantial living Truths and divine Openings declared and testified in that Treatise , which no doubt proceeded from a Divine Motion . And supposing some accidental Mistakes and Mistranssposing of Words , and Defects in Grammar and Syntax ( in the manner of wording ) have happened , either in Printing , Transcribing or otherwise , is it just to charge our Principle , or the Author's Intention , therewith . The Scriptures themselves have not been wholly free from vain Carpers and Caviller ; our Adversary when he has declared positively , That he is not endued with that Spirit the Holy Apostles bad , and that his Reasons against us must needs be defective . Yet now we must take his meaning , that he has it not by way of Eminency as they had , Apol. p. 2. Yet pretends the Assistance of God's holy Spirit , p. 46. Now let 's but have the same Liberty to construe our Friends Words as he takes here for his own , and we shall make them look far better then he does , no doubt . Concerning G. F's . respect to the Holy Scriptures , I further add , That 't is well known , it was his frequent and publick Testimony ; and in his Books also , That Holy Men of God gave them forth from the holy Spirit ; and that they spake and prophesied as they were moved by the Holy Ghost ; and that the Scriptures were thus given forth to be Read , Believed and Fulfilled . To return , though it be improper to say , the four Evangelists are but the Letter , because they were holy Men who Preached the Gospel ; and their Testimonies and Declarations contain evangelical and lasting Truths as declared ; yet the four Books , as made up of Paper and literal Characters , will decay , wear out and turn to Dust , as many good Bibles have done ; as in my Just Enquiry is more fully answered , with due respect to the holy Scriptures ; to wit , the Holy Doctrines and divine Precepts thereof ( and to the Books also ) as F. Bugg also confesses , viz. G. W. says , Though he does not ascribe Holiness to the Paper and Ink or dead Characters ; no more do I , nor do I know any body does ; but ( says George ) to the holy Doctrine , and blessed Precepts therein contained . which therefore are called holy Scriptures : Very well ; here we agree , if G. W. &c. speak as they mean , Apol. Introd . p. 6. [ Thus far F. B , ] Pray observe , then both we and he agree in this , not to ascribe Holiness to the Paper and Ink or dead Characters , but to the holy Doctrine and blessed Precepts therein contained . How now F. B. where art thou now with thy Charge and Condemnation of Perjury and Pillory upon us ? Thou hast fairly given away thy Cause , and discharged us whom thou hadst unjustly Condemned . Thy Charge is now more remote from Proof than ever it seemed : Therefore I challenge thee to prove that we say , The holy Scripture , namely , the holy Doctrine and blessed Precepts , are either Carnal , Dust , Death , Killing , &c. We still deny thy Charge herein as false and slanderous , considering the Nature and Import of it , and thou dost but clamour and foam out thy own Shame , in crying out of Impudence , and such a notorious Lye , as the very Heathens would abhor ; and all this for our denying thy notorious Lye , in charging us with saying that which we never said nor believed , viz. That the holy Scripture , namely , the holy Doctrine , &c. is Carnal , Dust , &c. And thy pretended Ten Reasons to prove thy other false Charge , That we do not believe the Doctrine and Precepts contained in the Bible , are Holy and Blessed : They are so shallow and impertinent Reiterations , and begging the Question , ( as also clamorous ) that they are not worth answering , the substance being already answered . Only to thy first pretended Reason : There is no proof , that by the Letter any of our Friends cited , meant the Doctrine and divine Precepts contained in the Bible , nor that the Ministers of the Letter only were true living Ministers of the Word of the Gospel , or of Christ Jesus , who is the Word of God. Though some Priests in the North , in and before the Year 1653 , when those Books , News out of the North , and Saul's Errand , &c. were Printed , were so ignorant , as to call the Bible , namely , the Books made up of Paper , and Ink , and literal Characters , the Word and the Gospel : Wherein they were oppos'd , Christ being the Word , and the Gospel the Power of God which endures for ever , which the Books and Letters or Characters cannot . Of his charging these Quakers who pretend plainly to own the Precepts and Doctrine of the Bible to be Holy and Blessed ; yet , that in other Books they say , 'T is Dust and Death , the Serpents meat , &c. and that to preach out of them , is Conjuration , Apol. Introd . p. 18. I want still plain Proof of Matter of Fact herein , that we , who are these Quakers ( so called ) say , The holy and blessed Doctrine , &c. is Dust , Death , &c. Let him produce plain Proof that we say so , or else be ashamed of this his horrid reiterated Slander . Whereas Is. Pennington did in his Questions , take it for granted , that the Names and Titles Jesus and Christ , chiefly and in the first place , belong not to the Body which he took , but to him who took the Body , namely , to Him the Son of God , who said , A Body hast thou prepared me . Now , F. B. grants , viz. I own the Son of God was before the Incarnation ; then I ask , if he was not the Anointed of God , and a Saviour before his Incarnation ? If he was , then he was Christ before , cons●quently , the name Christ in the first place belonged to Him , who took Flesh , and not chiefly , nor in the first place to the Body which he took on him ; tho his Words chiefly and in the first place imply that the Titles Jesus and Christ did also belong to the Body , when he took it upon him , and sometime given to it . Again , F.B. grants , That the names Jesus and Christ , are given to the Word , the Son of God after he took a Body , and so neither to the Body which he took , nor to him , before he took the Body , p. 4. Apol. Introd . But I ask , was Jesus Christ the Word , and Son of God , before he took the Body ? If he was , did not both the Ti●les of Saviour and Anointed belong unto him , as being the Son of God ? What does this Man quarrel at ? What against I. P. for implying that the names Jesus and Christ do not chiefly and in the first place belong to the Body , but to him that took it ? Is this such a great Error of the Quakers ? And must they be Prosecuted for Perjury and unto the Pillory for testifying against F. B. for his falsly charging us with denying Christ Jesus , who was Born of the Virgin Mary ? &c. O what sad Envy and Confusion is this , poor dark Backslider run into ! Who also grants , That there needed not many Arguments to prove , what he never denyed ; whereas the Arguments were to prove both , that Jesus Christ was before he took the Body of Flesh , and that the names chiefly and in the first place belonged to him that took the Body , yet the Body not denied them , Charitable Essay , p. 3 , 4. Object . But further , he inveighs against Isaac Pennington , viz. Isaac Pennington's Words are , He took the Flesh and Blood of our Nature , which is of a perishing Nature : Now if he took ours , and ours be of a perishing Nature , Ergo , his was perishing , or it was not of our's , so that G. W 's Evasion will not do . Ibid. p 4. Here F. Bugg , by his kind of Logick , has run himself into the same Snare and Error ( as he deems it ) which he has unduly charged Isaac Pennington withal , namely , That if Christ took upon him the Flesh and Blood of our Natures , and our's be Perishing , Ergo , his was perishing ; but he took our's , he cannot deny , he took part of the same Flesh and Blood the Children had , Heb. 2. 14. Then by F. B's . own , Ergo , his must needs be of a perishing Nature , unless he will whirl about , and unsay what he has said , namely , that it was not of our Nature which Christ took upon him : And then he must deny him to be of the Seed of Abraham according to the Flesh. But I deny F. B's Argument in this case , as neither very good Logick , nor true in its self ; I deny his Ergo : Though the Flesh of our Nature be perishing , as in us , yet it was not perishing as assumed by him ( Christ , ) his Flesh , his Body , which he took upon him , saw no corruption , it did not Corrupt ; consequently was not perishing , much less is it now , his Body being changed into a Heavenly , Spiritual and Glorified State ; and therefore called , his Glorious Body , like unto which our low body shall be changed and fashioned , Phil. 2.21 . The Premises considered , we do solemnly , and in the holy fear of God , both testifie against F. Bugg's precedent Argument , viz. 1. That because Christ took upon him the flesh and blood of our Nature . therefore his was perishing . 2. Also against his false Affirmation and Testimony against us , p. 25. viz. And thereupon I do affirm and testifie , and charge it upon them in the presence of God , Angels and Men , that they disown and deny Jesus Christ , whom God hath ordained to be Salvation to the ends of the Earth , and a propitiatory , Sacrifice for the Sins of the whole World to be CHRIST . [ Thus far F. B. ] But this we utterly deny , and sincerely testifie against , as abominably false and presumptuous , as well as Anti-Christian in it self . And to his saying , the names Jesus and Christ , are given to the Mediator , &c. [ True , but what follows ? ] Therefore , quoth F. B. 'T is no absurdity to say , It was not Jesus Christ for whom the Body was prepared ; It was not Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh , but the Word , Joh. 1.1 . Apol. Introd . p. 3. And yet he has confessed , it was the Son of God that took the Body , p. 4. What confusion and Self-contradiction does the Man blindly run into ? And how contrary to the Apostle John's Testimony is his Doctrin herein . See 1 Joh. 4.2 , 3. Every Spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh , is of God , and every Spirit which confesseth not , that Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh , is not of God ; but this is the Spirit of Anti-Christ . What Spirit is this in our Adversary , which saith , It was not Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh , who was it then ? It was the Word the Son of God ; as if Jesus Christ were neither the Word , nor the Son of God : O horrible Anti-Christianism ! And contrary also to that Martyr Dr. Barnes his Confession , as cited by F. Bugg himself , p. 45. viz. I believe , that without Man's will or power , Christ Jesus was Conceived by the Holy Ghost , and took Flesh of the blessed Virgin Mary , Acts , and Mon. p. 610. Now , if Jesus Christ took Flesh of the blessed Virgin Mary , then it was Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh : But it was Jesus Christ that took Flesh ; Therefore 't was Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh ; consequently F. Bugg's Doctrine , That is was not Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh , is Anti-Christian , Anti-Apostolical and contradictory to the said Martyr 's Doctrine . Note . His accusing us , That we own no other Christ than He that appeared in the body , Introd . p. 5. 'T is well he grants we own that Christ , what other Christ would he have us own ? For his Light , Spirit , Heavenly Treasure , , that we have in our earthen Vessels , is neither any dividing of Christ , nor any other Christ , but of the same Christ Jesus who came in the Flesh , was born of the Virgin Mary , &c. and spiritually manifested , and partaken of in his Saints ( in Measure ) by his Grace and good Spirit , where the Spirit of Christ is , there is Christ. I observe , that much of F. B's former Book is reprinted in this ; at which rate 't is an easie matter to make Books , to print and reprint the same things over and over again ; and when Answered ( as in my Charitable Essay ) instead of Replication , to impose the same things refuted , over and over again : And this is F. B's manner of troubling the World with his Impertinent Scribbles , and Scandalous Books , tending to divide and make discord , Sedition and Strife among the People ; as may be easily made appear , that the very Nature and Tendency of them is Seditious , to cause Discord , most falsly to render the People commonly called Quakers Obnoxious , and so much Popish as Rome's Sister ▪ New Rome , Babylon the Whore , a Cage of unclean Birds , among whom he has croswise plac'd , the names of many honest Men ( far more Righteous and clean than himself ) in the Figure or Form of a Cage , p. 50. maliciously invented by him ( as his Pillory is ) to Reproach and Scandalize Men , fearing God , and of good Repute and Esteem in their day ; as G. Fox , John Audland , Francis Howgil , Samuel Fisher , Edward Burroughs , Jo. Blaykling , Isaac Pennington , Richard Hubberthorn , Stephen Crisp , William Gibson , John Whitehead and others , having in all to the number of Thirty Four Persons names in his Cage . Thus he can Pillory , Stage and Cage-Men at his pleasure to defame and scandalize them ! His Accusation , that the Quakers insinuate in a Book , called , The Quakers Refuge , That what the true Prophets spake , was false ; and what the false Prophets spake was true , p. 47. We disown these Expressions as laid down ; and I think they are not duly Inferr'd from the said Book ; questioning , Whether some Words in theirs were not spoken by Wicked Men , some by Wise Men , ill applied ; some by good Men ill Expressed ; some by false Prophets , and yet true ; some by true Prophets , and yet false ( or rather mistakes ) yet this questioned but of some words in Scripture , not all , as what the true or false Prophets spake , as he states it in his New Rome Vnmask'd , p. 23. Of the false Ministry ( Introd . p. 9. ) He is offended at some of our Friends formerly calling them The Priests of the World , Conjurers , raising dead Doctrines out of the Letter , Theives , Robbers , Anti-Christs , ravening Woolves , greedy Doggs , &c. ( Introd . p. 9. ) But who were these names given to ? Not to all other Ministers in general , that are not of us , or not in outward Society with us : Who to then ? F. B. Answers They ( i. e. Quakers ) give them generally to all the false Ministry , Apol. Introd . p. 10. And why is he offended then ? Have our Friends wrong'd the false Ministry therein ? What need he be so much concern'd for the false Ministry ? But he Objects , They account none true Ministers but themselves , which is not true : There were sincere and true Ministers under several Dispensations , as among the Puritans , Protestant Martyrs and others , according to what the Lord had made known to them : And there are divers true in Words , who have a Zeal of God in some measure ; but too many who Preach true and good words , live bad lives . But F. B. it seems is rather willing to rake up the Characters given of the false Ministry against us , than to answer what he calls our false Glosses , Evasions , and subtil Turnings ( Ibid. p. 12. ) which appears to be his Evasion and Shuffle , when he cannot answer my Arguments , but is put to a Ne plus ultra ; then he rambles , rakes up , picks , and reiterates Stories , scraps and broken Sentences , and pieces out of old Books , and so patches up his Dirty and Scurrilous Books against us , and then gives us all the ill names he can , and cries out against us as New Rome , Impudence , Impudent Impostors , Cowards , cunning Sophisters , Jugglings , Legerdemean , a pack of false Witnesses and Perjur'd Persons : And saith , Surely Simon Magus never exceeded these Impostors , Act. 8. ( Introd . p. 11.15.18.47 . ) Thus his great Outrage and Implacable Malice appears . And like a furious Incendiary , to blow up the Fire of Contention and Persecution again , and to incense the Government and Magistrates against us ; he does not only call us New Rome , Rome's Sister , comparing us with the Papists , as coming , not one jot behind them , but harmonising with them ( Ep. Ded. p. 3.4 . ) and most unjustly accusing the Quakers with condemning the Protestant Religion in general terms ( Ibid. ) and with accounting Magistracy a cumbersome Tree , that must be cut down , and our Principles he maliciously accuseth , as both Anti-Magistratical and Anti-Monarchical , Ep. to Bereans , p. 12 , 13. How much resembling an Incendiary and Seditious Writer hath our Apostate Adversary appeared in these Invectives against a peaceable People fearing God , and by his Divine Providence recogniz'd by the Government as Protestants also ? Though this Incendiary will needs have us Papists . But pray does he therein befriend the Protestant interest , or Government either ? By thus magnifying or falsly Greatening the Popish Interest , as in ( and by ) a People who are wholly averse to Popery : Let the wisest in Heart , and impartial Judge , the Nature and tendency of this Adversaries work of Division and Discord , and whether it will excuse him therein to shelter and shroud himself in the Church of England , and to assume the Testimonies of Protestant Martyrs and Authors for his cover and Authority . Also he might have been so discreet , as not to question , nor upbraid us about , paying Ten Pounds , &c. towards carrying on a Vigorous War against the French King , because scrupling to pay 2 d. or 4 d. towards the Militia-Arms , accusing us with deluding the World ( p. 65. and 49. ) He might in prudence have considered , how far this may affect the Government , under which we live , and Charitably have excused those , who conscientiously scrupling actively to raise or bear Arms , yet in a sense , quietly pay the penalty by patiently suffering distress . Christ and his Servants of old would not Fight , yet payed Tribute to Caesar. Because of our Solemnly declaring to the King and Parliament , that we believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament were given forth by Divine Inspiration , and that they have accepted this our Declaration . F. Bugg thus grosly reflects upon us , viz. The more shame for you to be so deceitful , to give in a Testimony so contrary to your belief , p. 40. further , That this we pretended to the Parliament to serve a Turn , p. 24. Pray observe the horrid Envy and Insolency of this Incendiary herein , and not only the reproach he casts upon us , but what reflection upon the Civil Government ? as if the same were deceived and cheated by us , and thereupon granted us our Liberty . O horrible , Mischievous and deadly Malice ! What , will nothing less satiate his Fury , but our Destruction by Persecution again ? Oh! O thou Backslider and malicious Man , the Lord rebuke thy envious Spirit , thy deadly Hatred and Outrage ! And he will signally rebuke thee , I doubt not . And moreover , thou F. B. hast no great cause to boast , nor thy Priests to glory in thy Conversion to the Church of England , from the People called Quakers , with whom thou wast conversant for twenty five Years ( as thou pretendest , ) if such thy Conversion was a being Sold into Aegypt , as thou hast granted in thy Pamphlet , Stiled , The Quakers detected , p. 8. by thy applying to thy self Joseph's words , Gen. 50.20 . and Chap. 45.5 . on which thou sayest , thou canst say as Joseph did to his Brethren , viz. But as for you , ye thought evil against me , but God meant it unto good . Now , therefore be not grieved , nor angry with your selves , that you Sold me hither . Didst not think this Applicable to thy Condition ? If thou didst , then where art thou now , but in Aegypt ? But we Sold thee not thither ; thou art gone down into Aegypt for help , and therefore art not a Joseph , who trusted in , and feared the living God. And woe is to them , that go down into Aegypt for help ! Art not thou rather like Judas , turn'd to the Priests to betray and persecute the Innocent , and to gratifie them that hate us , with thy refuge of Lies and Calumnies ? Even against Innocent People , unto whose Principle , Foundation , Doctrine , Ministry , Faith , Love , Unity , Spiritual Testimony ( and as being the Church of Christ Jesus ) Thou hast made large and solemn Confession , both sometime before thou quite left us ( in thy Book De Christina Libertate , Printed 1682 Chap. 1. p. 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , &c. ) as also in thy said Quakers Detected , Printed in the Year 1686. about two Years after thy Conformity to the Church of England ; wherein thou hast given large Testimony to the Truth of our Principle , and high Commendations of the People called Quakers , their Doctrine and Ministry , as in the beginning , even as being a Dispensation of the Love of God , sent as a Visitation to Mankind ; together with their Christian Society , love unfeigned , and blessed Estate for many Years , and how God blessed their Meetings with the comfortable Enjoyments of his Presence ; as may be seen more at large in the said Quakers Detected . Insomuch , that thy Self-condemned Back-sliding , Apostacy and Envy against God's People , and Heritage is the more apparent in thy now exclaiming against us for dangerous Errors , pernicious Principles , Blasphemies , Heresies , Impostures , and saying , thou wast more than 25 Years a Member of their Society ( meaning the Quakers ) being carried away with their Dissimulation , see Title Page of thy New Rome Arraigned ; thus self condemn'd , and self-contradictory thou art . And I cannot rationally Perceive ; how F. B. can warrantably excuse himself , by pretending the Approbation of his Minister Isaac Archer for the Substance of his Book , or the Approbation of another Divine of the Church of England , ( as he calls them ) and of Letters , both from Conforming and Non-Conforming Ministers , which he pretends , brevity constrains him not to recite : Epist. to Bereans , p. 12. 1. As to Isaac Archer's Approbation , F. B. saith , he recites only an Abridgment thereof , viz. I do own the substance of this Book , as a defence of those Eternal Truths , by which I hope for Salvation , &c. But why did not F. Bugg recite the whole ? Was he so tied up to brevity in this concern , that he allowed his Teacher no more room in a Book of ten or eleven Sheets ? But it was very warily done of Isaac Archer to own the substance of F. B's Book , that is so much of it , as he esteems to be in defence of those Eternal Truths , by which he hopes to be Saved ; that is , so much of it , as is Scriptural , in behalf of Jesus Christ. But this will not Excuse nor Warrant those circumstantial passages of F. B's , in his Book , which consists of Perversions , Railery and false Accusions , and of his Errors justly Inverted upon him , in my Charitable Essay . 2. That Divine of the Church of England ( so called ) who gave his Approbation of F. B's Book , as a most acceptable peice of Service to his Country , in unvailing the falshoods , errors and hippocrisies of the Quakers , as he saith ; pray ; what is his name ? Why does not he appear , and make proof of F. B's malicious confused Work against the Quakers ? He may be ashamed of such his Approbation , if any such pretended Divine did give such Approbation . 3. And if F. B. has Letters by him of the same Import , both from Conforming and Non-Conforming Ministers , what are their names , and why do not they appear ? I am perswaded , many of their Brethren would be greatly ashamed of such their Approbation upon serious perusal of F. Bugg's bitter Invectives , and our Answers , and see that all such Approbations will be of no Reputation or Honour , either to Conforming or Non-conforming Ministers . As to Bugg's comparing the People called Quakers , with the Papists , as he has frequently done , he has fairly contradicted himself therein , by quoting W. P's Caveat against Popery , saying , Let them renounce their Errors , &c. And what follows , but , Therefore the People called Quakers are no Papists , according to F. B's way of arguing ; concluding all by one . But many others of our Friends , have sincerely testified against Popery , Superstition and Idolatry , both in the root and branch , and for the Protestant Religion , considered in the purity of it ; and therefore free from excusing Idolatry , as falsly charged on their Teachers , in his third charge , p. 23.44 . which hath been refuted , both in some other answers to this false Accuser , as also in our Answer to the Athenians ( so called ) and more particularly in my Just Inquiry into the Libeller's abuse from p. 17. to p. 30. concerning the pretended Letters of John Audland and Jos. Coale . Now Bugg acknowledges himself to have a Hand in , and to own the Composing the Book ( he should have said Scandalous Libel or Pamphlet ) Intituled ; Some of the Principles and Doctrines , Laws and Orders of the Quakers , &c. ( Introd . p. 10. ) which is fairly answered in the said Just Inquiry . Some of F. B's Abuses in Citation . 1. OBject . p. 33. News coming out of the North , p. 15. He cites G.F. thus I am ( saith G. Fox ) The Door that ever was , the same Christ yesterday and for ever . This is a plain perversion , rendring G.F. to speak this of himself ; whereas these quotations in the Margent , John. 14.6 . and Chap. 10.3 . Luk. 11.34 . and Joh. 1.9 . clearly shews that he speaks it of Jesus Christ , and not of himself , and so do the foregoing words , viz. Jesus Christ is the Way , the Truth and Life , he is the Door that all must pass through ; which words are very unfairly left out , in Bugg's citation . 2. Risen up out of the North , which was Prophecied of but now is fulfilled . Here he leaves out The Armies coming out of the North , against you terrible ones . This was Prophesied of , see Jer. 23.8 . Isa. 43.6 . Jer. 16.15 . and 51.48 . he could not mean that G. Fox's being risen up out of the North , was Prophesied of by Isaiah and Jeremiah . 3. [ Your Baptism is Carnal . ] Here he leaves out [ Sprinkling Infants , which God never Commanded . ] 4. Their Sacrament [ as they call it ] left out ] Is Carnal , and their Communion is Carnal . [ a little Bread and Wine , left out . ] Query , if their Bread and Wine be Spiritual ? If he saith it is , Query then , is it Transubstantiated ? Are there not Carnal Ordinances , and Washing mentioned in Scripture ? Their Church is Dust [ a heap of Lime and Stones gathered together , ] left out . 5. That the Quakers Teach that the Gospel is Dust , p. 47. This is false also , here he puts [ the Gospel ] for [ their Gospel ] whose Gospel ? The Covetous false Minister's , who put the Letter and their own conceivings thereupon for the Gospel . Moreover F. B. pursuant to his old Lye , viz. That we deny Him to be Christ , who was born of the Virgin Mary , &c. saith , It doth appear by Jo. Coales Testimony , that Christ after he Ascended , had no other Body but his Christ ; consequently did not Ascend in his Body , which was seen apparently , Act. 1.9 , 10 , 11. ( Quoting , p. 332. of Josiah Coales's Works . ) Which consequence , I must needs look upon as unjustly deduc'd from J. C's words in the very Page Quoted . For he does not only own the Church of Christ as his Body under Affliction , now on Earth , but also that this his Body shall be Fashioned like unto his glorious Body , whereof notwithstanding , all they are Members , who are Members of the true Church . So that the Body of Christ in it's Union and fulness , is one Body . I take notice of what an Abusive fling he has at me , about a little Book , Intituled , The Christian Doctrine , and Society of the Quakers , &c. relating to some differences in America , Accusing me with Peeping and Creeping , and with Turning and Winding this way and that way , hither and thither , and centring no where , but Janus like , looking two ways , &c. with other false and scurrilous detractions . And why so ? Why am I vilified in this Case also ? Bugg saith , He ( meaning my self ) seems to own the Doctrine , i. e. of one Party , but dare not own his Testimony , nor him in it : He seems to blame the Doctrine , i. e. of the other Party , but dare not blame their Persons , nor give Testimony against their Doctrine , as their's , &c. pag. 37. To pass by his scornful Abuse of me herein . Did not the Holy Apostles testifie against Divisions in the Churches , sometimes without naming or reflecting on the Persons ( by name ) concerned therein ? Did Paul name those of Corinth , whom he charges with Strife and Devision , &c. and therefore Carnal ? Where one saith , I am of Paul , another of Apollo , &c. was this to reflect on them by name ? And what 's more usual among Judicious and Impartial Men , who know common Law and Justice , than to give Judgment or Counsel , only upon the Case in difference , where the Parties differing are absent , without reflecting on the Persons of either Party ? Because it is not Judicial nor Just , to pass Judgment on Persons unheard , Face to Face in their own respective Pleas and Defence . But such an Imperious Arbitrary and unjust Judge is this our Implacable Enemy , that he can presume , not only to be both Accuser , Judge and Jury , but also to Trie , Sentence and Condemn Persons in their absence , both to Perjury , Pillory and Cage , without either hearing their own Just Defence , or taking Cognizance of their respective rational Pleas and Answers for themselves : But instead thereof , Forging and Framing Answers in their Names , which never were their's , nor in the least resembling them , as he hath done against us , whom he hath most ignominously and scandalously Traduc'd , Condemn'd , and Sentenced , both to Perjury and Pillory . And this is not all : But because I cannot be as Unjust and Wicked as himself , to Condemn Persons in their absence , and they as far remote as America : Therefore he Flouts , Scoffs , Scorns , Rages and Rails , Foaming out his own Shame . — And I doubt not , but the Just God will rebuke him in his own time , for his Injustice and Cruel Envy , with all his Secret Abettors therein , let him Scoff , Boast , Insult and Scribble out of old Books as long as he can , it will not rescue him from the stroke of that Divine Hand , that will seize upon him , I wish it may at last humble him unto Repentance . — If yet there be a place thereof , to be found for him . — He complains of Personal Defamations and Detractions , which have had such an Effect , not only ( saith he ) of our profession in Religious Matters , but upon our Persons and Imployments , which in time may be farther taken notice of , p. 37. 'T is very strange , he should thus complain of Personal Defamations and Detractions , when he is so deeply and notoriously Guilty thereof , who hath used Personal Defamations and Detractions so gross as he himself ? What , presume to set himself up , as both Accuser , Judge and Jury , and Sentence and Condemn honest Men of good repute , as a pack of Perjur'd Persons to the Pillory , and also to the Cage of unclean Birds , and yet complain of Personal Defamation and Detractions ! What horrid Hipocrisie , Insolency and Self-contradiction is this ! Can he rationally suppose , that such his foul Defamations and Detractions may not affect both Religion , Persons and Imployments of those Men he has thus most Injuriously treated ? And can he think himself secure from having his Insolency therein , in time further take notice of ? Though some among us be loath to be Vindicative upon him , according to his Demerits , especially for the sake of his honest afflicted Wife . Yet I would advise him ( if he be not past it ) not to be so fool-hardy for the future , nor to Act any more Fools Tragedies , to Reproach and Scandalize others . THE Self-Condemn'd APOSATE , OR Francis Bugg AGAINST FRANCIS BUGG . In His Apparent Contradictions . His Confession in his own Words . F. B 's New Rome Arraign'd , p. 45. and they ( i. e. the Quakers ) often as a Decoy [ false , by the way ] Exorted us to obey the Light , the Spirit of God in our Hearts , and to observe the dictates of our Consciences to abstain from Evil and pursue what was Good , and to follow the Leadings and Guidance of the Light within , which was sufficient to lead unto Salvation , &c. And this being a general Truth and a Duty upon all Christians , and no less than the publick Ministry does , yea , and ought to exhort to . His Opposition , with Additional Notes ( inclosed in Square Parentheses ) from his Confession . F. B's New Rome Arraigned , p. 68. For as it is false Doctrine to Teach , that the Light being obeyed , is sufficient to lead to Salvation , for then your Obedience is meritorious , and Christ Dyed in vain . Observ. If the Light within followed , be sufficient to lead to Salvation , and this true Doctrine , then 't is not false Doctrine too , that the Light within being obeyed , is sufficient to lead to Salvation ; neither does it invalidate Christ's Death , Merits or Deservings for Man to follow and obey his Light within to lead to Christ , who is Gods Salvation to the ends of the Earth : For Christ deserves to be Obeyed , and 't is our Duty , and without believing in his Light , there is no Salvation received from him . F. B's One blow more , p. 5. Artic. 3. In the Beginning , G. Whitehead and many others , came through the Countrey in plain Habit , walking on Foot , content with Mean Accommodation , Apt to Teach : Not given to filthy Lucre , often Visiting the Sick , the Poor as well the Rich , Working often on their Trades , that they might not be Chargeable . F. B. Battering Rams , p. 14. I mean Guilty in that they ( i. e. the Teachers among the Quakers ) alwayes pretend to Preach and Teach freely ; but contrary to all these their Pretensions , have all along taken Money for the same . Observe , The latter is a notorious Falshood , as well as contradictory to the former : How all along take Money for Preaching and Teaching , and yet not given to filthy Lucre ? and so Industrious and Careful , not to be Chargeable , when thus we Travel'd and Laboured as before . F. B.'s Quakers detected , p 3. In the Beginning , they ( i.e. the Quakers Ministers ) Taught , That all Men were Enlightned , according to Joh. 1.9 . and that this Light wherewith Christ had enlightened them , was sufficient , if obeyed , to lead to Salvation ; and that it was the work of the Ministers of Christ , to turn the Peoples minds from darkness to light , and from the power of Satan to God ; affirming , that this Light was a sufficient Teacher , Leader , and Guide to every Believer , without the help of outward Prescriptions , Forms , Orders , and Decrees of Men ; upon these and the like Notions , I became persuaded to make Trial of their Doctrine ; and when I came to see and observe their Practice , Conversations , and Deportments in the Beginning , and what simplicity & plainness attended their Ministry , I was still more Confirmed , that it was a Dispensation of the Love of God ; sent as a visitation to Mankind ; and being thus perswaded , I was resolved to bear the Cross ; and did utterly despise the shame that attended them and their Message ; and was not behind any of my Equals , both in doing and suffering for the Testimony thereof ; as some amongst them can still bear me witness . And in this manner we went on for many years , and Loved one another with Love unfeigned ; and doubtless God blessed our Meetings with the comfortable Enjoyment of His Presence . [ Thus far Fra. Bugg . ] F. B. New Rome Arraign'd , and out of her own mouth Condemned : containing , A farther Discovery of the Dangerous Errours , and Pernicious Principles of the Teachers and Leaders of the People called Quakers ; which tend to overthrow the Christian Faith : In Answer to G. W's . Charitable Essay , &c. [ Wherewith he has not proved any one Pernicious Principle , ] Who for his false Testimony , together with Eleven of his Witnesses , that came in to his assistance , are Examined , Tryed , and Convict of Perjury , and for the same put into the Pillory , by one who was more than twenty five years a Member of their Society , being carried away with their Dissimulation . Francis Bugg , ( Title Page , ) [ When they Preached Christ the Light , and in the Work of his Ministers , and in a Dispensation of the Love of God. ] F. B. Ibid. Epist Dedicat. The Quakers come not one jot behind the Papists , in Condemning the Protestant Religion . [ Which is a great Lye by the way ; 'T is Popery , and Humane Prescriptions in Worship , that we condemn , by our owning the Light , and Holy Spirit 's conduct therein . ] [ These Confessions F. B. made in his said Book , Quakers Detected , Printed in 1686 , about two years after his forsaking the Society of the people called Quakers , and conforming to the Church of England . ] And farther , F. Bugg , in his Book De Christiana Libertate , printed 1682 , hath also made these Confessions to the Principles of Truth , Professed among the People commonly called Quakers ; and to them as a True Church , a Church of Christ , Built on the True Foundation . Second Part of his said Book , Ch. 1. Treats of Principles of Truth , received and believed in the Beginning , as follows , viz. That in the Beginning , the Inshining Light of Christ Jesus , by his heavenly spiritual Appearance in the Hearts and Souls of his People , was our Principle , the very Foundation , Principle , and Corner-stone in our Building , there are yet many living Witnesses ; and our Work and Labour in that day , was , to turn peoples Minds thereunto , as to the more sure Word of Prophecy ; whereunto as many as took heed , did well ; and that there was sufficiency in it ( being obeyed ) to lead to Salvation . And as our Minds came to be turned to this Inward Teacher ; and as we came to experience the Virtue and Excellency of this Holy Vnction ; so we held a Publick Testimony thereof to others , that they might thereby be provoked to make Tryal thereof : that so they might have the Witness in themselves , and see for themselves , and taste for themselves . And to this Word , nigh in the Heart , were we committed and recommended ; suitable to the Doctrine and Ancient Prophesies of Christ Jesus our Lord , and his Blessed Apostles and Prophets . And in that day , how did our Harmony sound in our Assembly ? and how did our Love abound one towards another ! and our Zeal for the Holy Name of our God! In this stood our Unity , in this stood our Fellowship ; even in that Inward Testimony , which God committed to us to bear for His Name sake . [ From all which F. B. is now apparently Apostatized , and gone into Envy and Malice , as appears on the other side . ] Here was the moving Cause of our Love to God , and one towards another : Even the inward Testimony , or Manifestation of his Spirit ; which God in his infinite Love hath given us to Profit withal ; pursuant to his former Promises to our Fathers by his Prophets ; saying , I will give him for a Light to the Gentiles , and to be my Salvation to the ends of the Earth : I will give him for a Commander and a Leader to my People Israel . And as we came to believe this Report , and to experience the fulfilling of these Promises ; and to be Witnesses of the virtue of his blessed Appearance ; so we declare to others , that they might also believe , and have Fellowship with us therein . [ I never understood that F. B. was a Preacher . ] And the more we came thus to be spiritually minded , and spiritually exercised ; and the more we came to take delight therein , and to meditate therein , the more the Lord manifested his Love unto us , and his pure Power amongst us ; and became a Hedge about us , and a Wall unto us , and gave us favour in the sight of the People . Blessed and Praised be his Holy Name for ever . And in that day , when others would boast , of their Church-Authority , and Church-Discipline , useful Ceremonies , comely Orders , decent Vestments , &c. We told them , the Spirit of God was the Foundation of our Church , as well as the Foundation of the Prophets and Apostles . That Christ Jesus , the second Adam , the Lord from Heaven , who is a Quickning Spirit , was Head of our Church , Law-giver to our Church ; on whose shoulders the Government and Authority of our Church is laid ; yea the Hedge and Pale of our Church , and able to preserve it ; and in this Faith we Lived & walked in pure and undefiled Love. If any said to us , Lo here is Christ in this Ordinance , or in that Observation ; we told them , Nay , Christ is within ; and there they must wait to know him , except they were reprobates ; for the kingdom of heaven is within , and there they must wait , to receive the Earnest of it ; for it comes not by outward Observations . This , we told People , this we Proved to the People out of the Holy Scriptures . This upon all occasions we Testified to all People , Professor and Profane , bond and free , noble and ignoble . F.B. Epis. to Ber. p. 9 , 10. These Books wrote by G.F. Is. Pennington , and other Eminent Quakers Erroneous , [ who have given Testimony to the Spirit of God , ] have not been Burnt , either by the Common Hangman , or some other Officer , then you are to bring these Impudent men in Guilty . [ What , for owning Jesus Christ , and the Holy Scriptures , and standing by their Testimony ? ] F.B. Apol. Introd . p. 11. Surely Simon Magus never exceeded these Impostors . [ Yet Christ's Ministers , and in their Work , Preaching Christ , and his Light in Men. ] F.B. Ibid. Intr. p. 15. Good God! how have these Impostors prevailed upon the People ? And how was my Vnderstanding darkened by their Sleights for many years ? [ since they turned me to the Light of Christ within . ] F.B. Ibid. Intr. p. 18. Whoever observes these Quakers turnings and windings , in all their Juglings and Legerdemain , will find , they tread the same Path , ( i.e. with the Papists . [ How then Living Witnesses to the True Foundation , the Inshining Light of Christ Jesus , the Holy Unction , the Spirit of God , the Inward Testimony , as sufficient without Outward and Humane Prescriptions and Decrees ? &c. ] F.B. Ibid. Epis. to Ber. p. 13. Silent Meeting ( meaning of the Quakers ) those Nurseries of Ignorance , where they sit until they are weaned from the Principles of true Christianity . [ Which Meetings , God Blessed with the comfortable Enjoyment of his Presence . ] F.B. Ibid. Book , p. 33. And this I charge upon them , as a Pack of False Witnesses , and perjured persons . [ Yet Living Witnesses of Christ Jesus the True Light , and of that Inward Testimony , which God commited to us· ] F. B. Ibid. p. 44. They ( i.e. the Quakers ) have False Witnesses at their beck , to justifie G.W. and back his work with the most notorious Lyes that Men can be guilty of . [ How then Living Witnesses of a Dispensation of the Love of God to Mankind ? Yea a True Church , whereof the Spirit of God and Christ is the Foundation . ] F. B. Ibid. p. 46. Their Blind Guides . [ Who turn Peoples Minds from Darkness to Light. ] F. B. Ibid. p. 47 , 48 , 49. The Quakers are of the World , and are Deceivers and Antichrists ; the Quakers are Great Deceivers , and Horrible Blasphemers , and Impostors , Deceivers and Impudent Impostors , Blasphemers , Deceivers , Deluders and Impostors , &c. [ Whose Church ( nevertheless ) Christ is the Head , and Law-giver of ; and even the Hedge and Pale thereof ; who is able to preserve this our Church in true Faith , Pure and Undefiled Love. ] F.B. Ibid. p. 48. Such a Generation of Teachers among the Quakers , who exceed all that ever went before them , Professing Christianity , the Papists only excepted , both in Idolatry , Blasphemy , and Superstition ; yea and other gross Enormities . [ What ? both Christ's Ministers , and Church , all thus miserable , fallen and degenerate , and F.B. only standing in the Faith ? When backslidden from the Love , and from the Testimony and Practice of this Church of Christ ( that was at least ) among us ; for and with which , F.B. suffered , ( as he has confest . ) This is new Doctrine ! Oh! sad , Self-condemned , and woful Apostacy ! ] F. B. Ibid. p. 50. Babylon , a Cage of every unclean , hateful Bird. [ And then he has made the form of a Bird-cage , with the Names of many faithful and good Men in it ; as Is. Pennington , Fra. Howgill , Edw. Burroughs , Ric. Hubberthorn , and others ; the Truth of whose Testimony he hath owned and confest . ] F. B. Ibid. p. 54. G.F. and his Preachers , would seem to Justle Christ out of his Place . [ Yet their Ministry , a Dispensation of the Love of God. ] When they told us of their Articles of Faith , and how many they had ; and the Scripture being the Rule , &c. We told them , that Faith was the Gift of God , and to be waited for ; and that Faith was the Evidence of things not seen : And that although in the World there were Faiths many , and Lords many , yet to us there was but one Faith , and one Lord Jesus Christ , who was the Author of that Faith. And that altho' the Scriptures were good , and a true Declaration of those things which were most surely believed by the Apostles ; and by us ought to be believed ; yet not the only Rule . But still the Spirit of God , which was the first Principle , the Foundation-Principle , the Pale and only Hedge of the Church and Sanctified People of God. So likewise it was the Rule of Life and Practice first , and before any other Rule ; and always had the Preheminence in our Testimony from the Beginning . F. B. p. 68. Ibid. To me it seems easie to write a History of the Rise , Growth , and Progress of their Church-Government ; and that monster Womens Meetings , &c. and how the Spirit of Persecution hath been among them from the Beginning . [ Even when we loved one another with love unfeigned , and how did our love abound one towards another ? and when doubtless God blessed our Meetings with the Comfortable Enjoyment of his Presence . ] And if any question the Truth of what I have here affirmed ; then for Proof thereof , I referr them to the Testimonies of Isaac Pennington , Edward Burroughs , George Bishop , &c. ( Published by T. Crispe ) together with the Writings of Francis Howgill , Richard Hubberthorn , and many other Antient Friends , &c. [ Thus far Francis Bugg's Confession to the Truth of those Testimonies and Authors which he has now declined ; and not only most basely Revolted from , but Opposed , and shamefully Reproached divers of the same Authors , ( as with his Mock-Cage , Scorn , and Envy , &c. ) whose Testimonies he has here so manifestly Assented unto , Owned , and Asserted ; which shall Rise up in Judgment against Him ; whose Judgment lingereth not , and whose Condemnation slumbereth not . ] SOME REMARKS Upon F. B.'s former CONFESSIONS ; FARTHER Arguing and Evincing his Self-condemnation and Apostacy , his Hypocrisie and Temporising . PRay , impartial Readers , observe what excellent Testimonies and Characters he has here before given of the Principles , Foundation , Faith , Religion , Profession , Church ( and Christ as Head thereof ) Ministry , Christian Love , Society , Enjoyment and Conversation of the People called Quakers , both as in the Beginning and for many Years together , wherein he walked among them . Come , F. B. now do thou observe and consider well , 1. That in all these foregoing , ample and solemn Confessions and Commendations thou hast given of the Christian Doctrin , Society and Conversation of the said People , and their Ministry ( both before and after thou forsook them , and conformed to the Priests , &c. ) Thou wast either Sincere or Insincere therein . To be Insincere therein , I suppose thou wilt not charge thy self : If Sincere , then thy Conformity was Insincere and Hypocritical , and Self-condemned ; it being thy own and our professed Principle and Testimony in the beginning , and for these many Years , when thou wast conversant among us , according to thy own Confessions made in the Year 1684 and 1686 , before and since thy conformity . 2. Thy new Pretence , Thou art not now of the same mind thou wast in , in 1686 , concerning us in the beginning , and that thou hadst then a charitable Opinion , and better Thoughts of us , with respect to our beginning than now thou hast ; and that thou wast in an Error , mistaken , &c. As in thy New Rome Vnmasked , p. 12 , 13 , 16. Then thy good and charitable Thoughts of us , our Ministry , Doctrine and Society ( respecting our beginning and for many Years ) continued until Anno 1986 , until near two Years after thy conformity . Wherefore thy turning to the Priests and Church of England in 1684. proceeded not from inward conviction of Conscience , nor from the Spirit of Christ , but self-condemned Hypocrisie and Temporising : For in the beginning the Quakers were in a clear Separation from the National Priests , &c. And the same is continued by all of them who are sincere and faithful to their Principle . And that thou knewest , when thou suffered among them for Meeting and Nonconformity , then thou hadst a Testimony against all Mercenary Priests , against Tythes and their Persecutions , Oppressions , &c. Wast thou mistaken therein all that Time ? and mistaken in thy Testimony for the Light of Christ and our Ministry and Doctrine ( as in the beginning ) both before and since thy conformity ? If so , then why dost thou not retract thy mistaken Books in that Case ? And then who will credit thy Scribling ? It seems thou knewest not thy pretended mistake , till some Years after thou hadst turned about and conformed , which if so , it was therefore in a blind Obedience : Didst thou go blindfold to Church ? ( so called ) Such slim Shifts and mean Subterfuges will not cover or acquit thee from Self-condemnation ; nor thy telling us , Thou art not of the same mind thou wert in in 1686 , concerning us in the beginning , p. 12. [ Thou art very mutable then , no doubt thy Thoughts grow worse and worse , and thy Charity very cold , ] and why so ? Why are thy Thoughts grown of late so bad of us ? Thou sayest thou hast of late examined our ancient Errors , and observed the Consequences of them . New Rome unmask'd , p. 12. that is , when we were a true Church , and Christ our Head and Law-giver , found in Doctrine , and Christian in Conversation , Love and Society , according to thy own Confessions in 1682. before thou went out to the Parish Church ( so call'd ) and in 1686. after thou so went out and conformed thereunto . It seems then , thou knewest no such pretended Errors in 1686. two Years after thy Revolt and Conformity ; then 't was not Error in Doctrine that was the cause of thy deserting us , and turning to the Priests ; what then was it , outward Prescriptions , Forms , Orders , Decrees of Men , Laws , Canons , Ecclesiastical , &c. as thou pretendest , Qua. Detect . p. 3.4 . Thou cannot be sincere in any such Pretence , unless thou hadst conformed to a Church , that hath no Order nor Discipline ; Canons or Rules in it ; and where 's that Church that will own its self to be without Order or Discipline in it ? Thy comparing thy Case with Bishop Cranmer's and the Protestant Martyrs , p. 13 , 14. appears more thy Ambition , then Pertinent or Sincere . If Bishop Cranmer said , in the Beginning the Church of Rome thought pure and sound Doctrine , but did he say he was mistaken , and in Error in so saying ? No , he own'd her as such ; But after the Church of Rome fell into that new unsound Doctrine of Transubstantiation , &c. He disowned Her. He could be no self-condemn'd Apostate therein , whilst he neither diserted the pure sound Doctrine nor conformed contrary to his own Testimony thereunto , ( as thou hast done ) Thou in Words , hast owned and commended of a Church and People , ( i. e. call'd Quakers ) as once pure and sound in Doctrine and Conversation , both before and since thou left them , and joyn'd to another in Opposition to that Church and People ; and now to excuse thy whirling about and base temporizing , pretendest thou wast mistaken , even in such thy solemn Commendation . Thus uncertain Unstable , Self-contradictory , and self-condemn'd thou art both ways ; Insincere and Self condemn'd , in acting contrary to the Principle , Profession and Conversation of a Church and People , whilest highly commended by thy Self ; and thou appearest a Self Condemned Temporizer , in retracting that Commendation , as an Error and Mistake ; Self Condemned , in now pretending thou hast of Late , examin'd and observ'd our ancient Errors ( as thou callest them . ) Being some Passages in some ancient Books , writ by some particular Persons , even when we were a Church pure and sound in Doctrine and Conversation , in thy own account , ( and as still we are . ) That God Blessed Vs , and our Meetings , according to thy late Confessions , as thou hast unfairly snapt and carpt at some Passages or Words out of G. F.'s Great Mystery , Printed in 1569. Isaac Pennington's Question to Professors . Some of Edward Burrough's Books , with more old Books , many Years ago printed , being writ within the compass of those many Years , wherein thou had'st such sweet Conversation , and Divine Blessing among us , long before thou left us , we may believe thee therein ; therefore the Fallacy and Deceit of thy now pretence of ancient Errors , will not excuse thy Back-sliding , nor absolve thee from Self-Condemnation , in thy acting against Light and Conviction , which will pursue thee . Besides , thou yet confessest a party of Christian Quakers , who hold what 's sound , and that though they dissent from the established Religion , yet they hold the true Faith for Substance . New Rome unmask'd , p. 68. and yet actest contrary to the Faith , Profession and Practice of those Dissenting Christian Quakers , in thy going to Parish Churches ( or rather Steeple-Houses ) wherein they do not follow thee , for according to thy own Confession , thou art gone or sold into Egypt , as in thy Qua. detected , p. 8. In applying Joseph's Words to thy Self ; Namely , that thou canst say as Joseph did to his Brethren , Gen. 45.5 . Now therefore be not grieved , nor angry with your Selves , that you sold me hither , though very greatly misapplyed , for we did not sell thee into Egypt , but ( to evade the Cross and shun suffering for it , ) thou wentest down voluntarily thither for help , which woe is to them that do , and doe thou remember it . Nor is thy Case like that of Joseph ; for he confest , as that God had a hand in sending him thither before his Brethren , for their Preservation , but thou art gone down into Egypt , to Revile , Reproach , and Rail against thy Brethren , as if thou wouldst incense Egyptians against them , even the very Mob or Rabble to destroy them if thou couldst , with thy Pillory and Cage , &c. to excuse and cover thy wilfull Revolt and Back-sliding , and to extenuate thy Judgment , and Self Condemnation ; but the Lord will find thee out , and thou shalt know that thine own Wickedness shall correct thee , and thy Back-sliding shall reprove thee , and the Witness of God will pursue thee to thy Anguish . And further to give a summary Demonstration of thy Self-Condemnation and Apostacy , and where thou art . Thou callest Conformity the monstrous Womb , de chr . Lib. p. 81. and confessest that Conformity is a Monster , conceiv'd by the great Whore Mystery Babylon , p. 83. Yet in Self-contradiction to thy Self , art since conformed , and consequently joyn'd to a Monster , if Conformity be it , though thou mightest better have distinguished Conformity . Thus thou art Conformed to shun Conformity , thus confused and into Babylon thou art run , and in the Cage of unclean and hateful Birds left among whom thou hast unjustly pretended to Cage and number us . Thou hast not only in contempt writ against Conformity , outward Prescriptions , Forms , Orders , Decrees of Men , Canons , Rules , Laws , Impositions , &c. ( i. e. in Church-Government and Discipline ) in thy several Pamphlets , as Q. detected , B. Rams , one Blow , &c. but hast charged us with Apostacy therein , and turned from us on that Pretence . Yet in contradiction to thy self , art conformed to a Church and Ministry , which have all these ( i. e. outward Prescriptions , Forms , Orders , Decrees of Men , Canons , Rules , &c. ) in Church-Government and Discipline , whilst thou canst prove no unjust or unwarrantble Canons , Rules , Laws or Methods in our Church , either in Government or Discipline . Thy now Pretence of false Doctrine , Error , Heresie and Imposture against us , is a new Pretence lately taken up for a Cloak to thy Back-sliding and Temporizing , and contrary to thy own Confession as before cited , and therefore no just Pretence , nor true Excuse for thy deserting ( or going out from ) us , and turning to the Priests . Our Principle , Ministry and Doctrine were true , when thou wast amongst us , when thou left us , and since thou left us ; ( the same considered as from us Beginning according to thy own Confession ) and therefore thou appearest a self-condemn'd Hipocrite . 1 st . In conforming contrary to thy own Testimony against Conformity to outward Canons , Prescriptions , &c. 2 dly . In thy now Reproaching us as Erronious and Heretical , contrary to thy own solemn Confessions , both before and since thy conforming ( as before mentioned : ) So that into Egypt and Babylon thou art gone , and miserably fallen , and shalt see and know that it is an Evil thing and bitter that thou hast forsaken the Lord God , and that his Fear is not in thee . And mayst thou not justly expect that a certain fearful looking for of Judgment and fiery Indignation , which shall devour Truths Adversaries will surprize and seize upon thee ? And I wish all others concerned may take timely Warning by thy Fall and Misery . Thy poor Soul's ( and all Mens ) Friend , G. WHITEHEAD . POSTSCRIPT . THere are yet two Things remarkable to manifest what Perfection of Malice and Impudence this our persecuting Adversary , F. Bugg , is arrived unto : First , His dedicating his scandalous Book , ( hereby answered ) unto Henry Goldwell Esq A Justice of Peace , and A Member of the House of Commons , with this Complement , viz. I have been the bolder , Honoured Sir , to present you with the ensuing Discourse , in hopes of your favourable Construction of my weak Endeavours , and that under your Patronage they may appear , &c. Now I am perswaded from some late Discourse which I , and some others of our Friends , had with the said H. Goldwell Esq that he is a Person so rational , that he must needs justly resent Bugg's boldness herein , as no small Reflection upon him and his Reputation ; to be thus rendred a Patronizer of such a wicked , scandalous and abusive Book , as that of Bugg's is , against a peaceable People , fearing God. But to do the said H. Godwell Justice and Right in this Matter ; When three of us shewed him the Injury Bugg had done him therein , he signified to us , That he was not made privy to his Dedication , for he knew not of it before it came forth ; and had shewed his dislike thereof . What a Shame and Insolency was it then in Bugg , so publickly in Print to hope for his Patronage , to make a Person in his Station suspected , for encouraging this our implacable persecuting Adversary , in such his scurrilous and most calumnious Book ; hoping that not only this Account may be some reprehension to the said Bugg's presumptuous Insolency : But also , that the said Justice Goldwell will farther ( in point of Justice ) reprehend him , for Imposing such a Dedication upon him for his Patronage . Secondly , It is farther remarkable , how the said Bugg , to vent his inveterate Malice , had the Impudence to deliver an envious , perverse and lying Phamphlet of his own , against the People called Quakers , to the Members of the House of Commons , the 16th Instant , [ stiled , Something in Answer to the Allegations of the Quakers , in their printed Case presented to the House of Commons , Decemb , 1693 , ] on purpose to Calumniate the said People , and to interrupt and gainsay their Conscientious Case for their not Swearing , &c. before presented as he saith : Whereby Bugg did not only shew himself a busie-body in other Mens Matters , but also in the very height of deadly Malice . Therein falsly accusing the said People , 1. With Contempt of Scripture and Ordenances ( without exception . ) 2. With Contempt of the Publick Ministry ( without exception also . ) 3. With Denying Jesus of Nazareth . 4. With Contempt of Governours ; as if he eagerly thirsted for Persecution again for our utter Ruine . Some of his Instances to prove , that the Quakers deny Jesus of Nazareth , are , 1. William Smith 's asserting something of God in Man , for him to wait to know . 2. Our knowing Christ the foundation in us . 3. Our believing that Christ in us doth intercede the Father on our behalf . 5. Edw. Burrough 's confessing , the very Christ of God to be in us , and that we dare not deny him . 5. The Answer formerly given by James Naylor ; viz. If I cannot witness Christ nearer than Jerusalem , I shall have no Benefit by him ; but I own no other Christ but that ( i. e. Christ ) who witnessed a good Confession before Pilate , which Christ I witness suffering in me now . These are some of his Instances to prove , that the Quakers deny Jesus of Nazareth . Wherefore , according to F. Bugg's Doctrin ( since he turned from the Quakers to the Church of England ) the ancient Christian and Apostolical Doctrin and Confession of Jesus Christ in you , except ye be Reprobates , and Christ in you , the hope of Glory , and the Spirit of the Son , as sent into your Hearts , crying Abba Father , and making intercession , &c. This all ( with Bugg ) is a denying Jesus of Nazareth . Oh! horrible Antichristianism and Apostacy . The Lord preserve all honest simple Hearts , from such gross darkness of Envy and Apostacy , against which I propose , 1. That Christ's being in Glory and Majesty in the Heavens , does not wholly exclude him out of the Souls of his People . 2. That Jesus Christ , who is in his own Glory and Majesty in the Heavens , yet is spiritually in the Hearts of his true Followers , in his Church and Sanctuary , and Minister thereof . See Heb. 8.1 , 2. London the 19th . 10 month 1693. FINIS . ERRATA . PAge 5. line 24. for be read he : p. 17. l. 4. for to read of ; l. 14. dele the : p. 18. l. 9. read Cavillers : p. 14. l. 21. for 2. read 23 : p. 31. l. 2. read wise : P. 38. l. last , for Christ read Church : P. 42. l. 15. read taken : P. 46. l. 5. 2 Col. for wherewith read wherein . BOOKS Printed for , and Sold by Thomas Northcott , in George Yard in Lombard Street . THE Works of that faithful Servant of Jesus Christ , Robert Barclay , in Folio Price Bound 13 s. Truth Exalted , in the Writings of that Eminent Servant of Christ , John Burnyat , in 4 to . Price bound 2 s. 6 d. Robert Barclay's Apology for the People called Quakers , in 4 to . Price 4 s. Francis Howgil's Works , in Folio , 10 s. Samuel Fisher's Works , in Folio 12 s. The Spirit of the Martyrs revived , in 4 to . 4 s. George Keith's Visible Churches , in 80. 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Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65869-e880 (1) This is a deceitful and false Insinuation , I have a true love and respect to them both , and a real honour to the very Memory of W. D. If he means William Dewsbury . (2) I positively deny this Story against A. P. and my self , as a base lying Story , and demand of Bugg to produce his Author for it . (3) I know in my own Conscience these to be lying Stories ; and again , Challenge Bugg to bring out his Author for them . (4) This also is as deceitful and false an Insinuation as the first , and I do not believe that either T. G. or J. C. ( if he means John Cook ) do question my love to them . By me , George Whitehead . Notes for div A65869-e3070 * Psa. 16.10 . Act. 2.31 and 13.37 . 
A65872	----	The law and light within the most sure rule or light, which sheweth the right use and end of the Scripture, manifested in opposition to several false principles inserted in a book intitled Scripture light the most sure light, by William Bridge, the great pastor and Reverend Father, so accounted, of the Church at Yarmouth in Norfolk / confuted by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1662 Approx. 21 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65872 Wing W1940 ESTC R39128 18216908 ocm 18216908 107196 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65872) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 107196) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1136:17) The law and light within the most sure rule or light, which sheweth the right use and end of the Scripture, manifested in opposition to several false principles inserted in a book intitled Scripture light the most sure light, by William Bridge, the great pastor and Reverend Father, so accounted, of the Church at Yarmouth in Norfolk / confuted by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 8 p. s.n., [London : 1662?] Caption title. Imprint suggested by Wing. Reproduction of original in the Union Theological Seminary Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Bridge, William, 1600?-1670. -- Scripture-light the most sure light. Puritans -- England -- Controversial literature. Society of Friends -- England -- Apologetic works. Dissenters, Religious -- England. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Law and Light WITHIN , The most sure Rule or Light , which sheweth the right use and end of the Scripture , MANIFESTED In opposition to several false Principles inserted in a Book Intituled Scripture Light the most sure Light , by William Bridge , the Great Pastor and Reverend Father , so accounted , of the Church at Yarmouth in NORFOLK . Confuted by George Whitehead . HAving lately viewed part of William Bridge his Book aforesaid , who hath long been esteemed an Eminent Teacher among many of the Professors , and them called Independents in England , and having in his Book found many false principles and sinful Doctrines , contrary to the Scriptures of Truth , it was upon me in the fear of the Lord to lay open some of his Principles , that the Ignorant may be instructed , and the Professors of Yarmouth and els-where may not trust in delusion nor in deluders , but cease from man whose breath is in his nostrils , and no longer esteem of any above what they are , but turn to the Spirit of the Lord as it appears in them , which Spirit searcheth all things , and leadeth them into all truth who are willing to be guided by it , whereby they may try all things , both Spirits , Doctrines and fruits , and hold fast that which is good , which Spirit they that hate it and resist the movings of it when it moves against their ungodlinesse and errours , it will be a witnesse against them unto condemnation , and they shall remain in darknesse , and have their portion in darknesse ; So let the Professors and People of all sorts consider these things in the fear of God. First I shall lay down one particular for a truth which Wil. Bridge hath inserted in his book in p. 12. but it is against himself & such as he is , where he saith , Pr. That a knowing learned man it may be can utter more of the Scripture then he feels , but a good man feels more then he can utter . Answ. This is a Testimony against himself and his Brethren the Priests , who are learned men , who utter many things not in the true feeling which the good man is in ; so they are not the good men , for they walk contrary to that which should bring them into the feeling of truth in the inward parts ; & I shall here prove that William Bridge is out of the true feeling when he utters such Doctrines as he hath done contrary to the truth . Pr. From 2 Pet. 1.19 . We have also a more sure word of prophecy whereunto ye do well to take heed , W. Bridge saith the Apostle doth here prefer the written word before a revelation from heaven , now if he do prefer it before a Divine Revelation , then it is not to give place to the dawning of some special Light and Revela●ion in the heart , p. 4. Answ. In this he hath both perverted the Scripture & affirmed that which is fals , for the Apostles preferred Divine Revelation before the writings , as having the things of God revealed in them , before they spoke them forth or wrot of them , and Peter saith , The prophecy came not in old time by the will of man , but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy Ghost , 2 Pet. ● . 2● . so that they first had the prophesies of Scripture revealed in them by the holy Ghost before they were written , and that word which the Apostle directs to was the word of prophecy which was before the words were written , nigh in the heart , and gave place to the dawning of a special Light and Revelation in their hearts , for it led them to the dawning of the day and the arising of the day-star in their hearts which was Christ , for whose Revelation they hoped through the word or spirit of prophecy in them , and such did not deny the giving place to the dawning of the special Light and Revelation in the heart , as W. Bridge in his blindness hath done , see Mat. 11.27 . 1 Pet. 1.13 . 2 Pet. ● . 19 . Pr. He saith p. 9. I le tell you sayes the Apostle what ye shall do whilest ye are in the dark , even take heed to the word written . Ans. That 's false , the Apostle sayes no such words , neither saies he the word is written but living , and they were to take heed to the word of prophecy which they had as a Light that shined in a dark place , until the day-star arose in their hearts ; now they that are in the dark do not understand the Scriptures , then how should they take heed to that they know not ? but the light in the heart which shineth in darknesse , before it shine out of darknesse it gives the true understanding ; Again William Bridge is exceeding dark in counting the word of prophesie the writing or Scriptures of the Prophets , for the Apostles words or writings which testifies of Christ as he is come are as sure as the Prophets writings ( or more ) so that if he had intended the more sure word to be the Scriptures without , he would rather have said ye have a more sure word of the Apostles to take heed unto ; and again , the Scriptures doth not shine to them that are in darknesse , because they understand them not , but the light shineth in darknesse though the darknesse comprehends it not , and the least measure of the light of Christ being waited in by any one , it prophesies of a greater manifestation of light , and leads them that believe in it to the Revelation of Christ , the power and glory of the Father , so that this light in them is more sure to them then a voice or vision which another hath heard or seen which they have not , a manifestation of which light or spirit is given to every man to profit withal , John 1.4 , 5.9 . 2 Cor. 4 6 Pr. In page 7. he saith , A good man may live and dwell in a place or Town where no means of grace are , in a poor dark ignorant corner of the World. Ans. This is false Doctrine , for the Grace of God which brings salvation hath appeared unto all men , Titus 2.11 . and this grace is not without some means of it as it doth convince of sin , and teacheth to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts , and it appears with the means of it as to convince of sin and to teach righteousnesse , as thousands do and shall witnesse , and they who will not be taught by it , with it they shall be left without excuse . Pr. In page 7. he saith , David thirsted after Ordinances , saying , my soul thirsteth after thee O God to see thy Power and thy Glory , Ps. 63.1 , 2. Ans. David in thirsting after God and his power and glory , thirsted after that which is beyond all carnal or visible Ordinances , and shall remain when all such your Ordinances shall fail and have an end ; but now see how plainly William Bridge hath in this contradicted himself , for if the Scripture be preferred before Revelation from Heaven , and be not to give place to such a Revelation in the heart as he hath affirmed , then what needed David have thirsted to see the Power and Glory of God , for that is revealed in the hearts of believers , Eph. 3.20 . Pr. In page 9. and 10. A very good man may be much in the dark , ( temptation time is a dark time ) yet this Scripture light he hath alwayes by him , to the law and to the Testimony . Ans. A very good man is born of God and walketh in the light , and though he be tempted entereth not into the temptation , for the wicked one toucheth him not , as John said , and that is the most sure light to him which keepeth him out of temptations , which light was before the Scriptures were , and the Law is light , and the testimony is the Spirit of prophesie which was in the Saints before they wrote the Scriptures , which are not the light but testifie of it . Pr. page 7. Joseph when Mary was first with child , he did not know what to do in the case till the Angel of the Lord appeared to him . Ans. Which flatly contradicts his former words , for then the Angel of the Lord and what he revealed to Joseph was more sure to him then the Scriptures of the Prophets , for they did but foretell of Christ , but the Angel convinced Joseph concerning Christ , that he must not put away his wife as he would have done , as by the Scripture , touching fornication which she was not guilty of , as the Angel convinced him , Mat. 1.19 . so that Revelation was more sure then the Scripture . Pr. page 10. Wicked men have the light of the Scripture as a blind man hath the Sun , the Sun is in the firmament over the head of the blind man , yet it is not light to him . Ans. Here again William Bridge hath contradicted himself , for then the Scripture is not the most sure light to the wicked , because the wicked are as far from understanding the Scripture , as the blinde man is from seeing the light of the Sun , by this mans words , and yet he bids them that are wicked in the dark take heed to the word written , which is no better then to bid a blind man follow the light of the Sun , but that is the most sure light which shineth in the hearts , and opens the blinde mans eyes , and brings to Divine Revelation , which the Scripture without doth not , but testifies of the light and of Revelations , which the light of Christ brings to . Pr. page 12. The Scripture light is the most excellent safe and sure light , it is the light of lights ; there are many false lights in the world . Ans. God is the light of lights , the Father of lights , James 1.17 . and not the Scripture , for it is the writing not the light , and if God be the Fountain of lights , from whence did these false l●ghts come ? surely William Bridge hath spoken here much out of the feeling , for that which is false is not the Light , though deceit may transform like the light , but no deceit is really light . Pr. page 12. In looking in the Scripture , this great looking-glass , ye see the truth ▪ that are therein contained concerning God and Christ , there is God seen especially , and Christ seen , there also you see your selves and your own dirty face , this is that manifesting light under Christ. Ans. Here is confusion and false Doctrines added to confusion , for if the wicked have the Scripture but as the blind man hath the Sun , how should they see their dirty faces in the Scriptures , or see the truth , or God or Christ in the Scriptures , when the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain God , 1 Kings 8.27 . much less the Scripture , and he that would here divide the Scripture light from Christ , as if the Scripture light were one and Revelation were another , he is blind , for the Light which the Saints have in Scripture is in them , and is the light of Christ , without which the Scriptures cannot be understood , so that is the manifesting light which gives the true understanding of the Scriptures , and the Letter or Writing not the light . Pr. page 15. Scripture Light is the highest Light , Scripture Dispensation the highest Dispensation , the Dispensation of Visions and Revelations was of a lower rank . Ans. Herein hath William Bridge both shewen his ignorance and contradicted his brethren the Priests , for many of the Priests do account the Dispensation of the Prophets and Apostles of Christ , which was a dispensation of visions and revelations , far higher then theirs who now have the Scriptures , but do not own revelations to be manifest in these dayes , when as no man knoweth the Father but the Son , and he to whom the Son will reveal him , Mat. 11.27 . so William Bridge in his counting visions and revelations of a lower rank then the Scripture , he might as well say that the knowledge of God and Christ which is revealed , is lower then the letter , when as they were in a Scripture dispensation , and had the letter of the Law and Prophets who persecuted Christ , and Paul was there when a persecutor , but when he received the dispensation of God given him by revelation , whereby he was made a Minister , he knew that which was above or beyond the Scriptures , even Christ revealed in him the mystery , and so preached him unto the Gentiles , and did not sleight divine revelation , nor set the letter above it as William Bridge hath done , Gal. 1. Col. 1.27 . 2 Cor. 13.5 . Pr. page 15. If God should now speak unto you by Visions or Visional Revelations , how would you know that this were the voice of God but by the Scripture , and who doth not know that the Devil will speak an hundred truths . Ans. Here his grose ignorance of the voice of God is seen , for God is able to manifest his own voice to them that have not the Scriptures without , as he did before they were written , and the sheep of Christ knows and hears his voice ; what doth William Bridge believe that the Sheep of Christ must all go to the Scripture without , and try his voice thereby , when the devil can speak Scripture or a hundred truths ? then what must try the devils voice , and how then must they try voyces and spirits that cannot read the Scriptures ; now all that own the Spirit of Truth which searcheth all things , whereby words voyces and Spirits are to be tryed , they may soon see the Priests ignorance in these things . Pr. Pag. 18. I am to be so far from desiring God to speak in this way of a vision , as I am bound rather to be backward to it . Ans. Here William Bridge his desires are contrary to the true Ministers desires , for they went on to Visions and Revelations , and preached what God had revealed by his word in them , but in this he hath manifested himselfe to be like the Priests of old , from whom the vision was departed , and the day was become dark over them that they might not have a Vision , and where there is no vision the People perish , Mica 3. 2 Cor. 12.1 . Pr. Pag. 18. If any have a revelation to try or confirme any Gospel doctrine , 't is a delusion of Satan . Ans. Which is quite contrary to the Apostles doctrine , for they taught them that had revelation to try all things and hold fast that which is good . 1 Thes. 5.21 . And by the revelation of Christ they witnessed the doctrine of the Gospel confirmed and fulfilled in them , and this is no delusion , so that this Priest might as well have said that the knowledge of God is a delusion , for it comes by revelation and confirmes Gospel doctrine . Pr. Pag. 27. He saith the Light and Law within us here is Imperfect , the Law of Grace within , & the Light within is not able to convince others . Ans. Which are both false , for the Law and Light of the Lord is perfect , and by this Light within are many convinc'd of their evil deeds , and reproved for them , and things that are reproved are made manifest by the Light , & who ever speaks to the convincing others it must be from the Light within which is perfect , as every gift of God is perfect , Eph. 5.13 . Col. 3.16 . Pr. Though the Law and Light and Spirit within us be a principle of good , yet it is not the Rule of our goodness or Lives . Ans. Herein William Bridge hath plainly contradicted himself , for he confesseth in pag. 28 that the inward Law and Light discovers those heaps of sin that are in the Soul , and doth not onely incline a man unto what is good , but it inables him thereunto ; then I say , that the inward Light both discovering sin , and inclining and inabling man to that which is good , it must be the rule of their Lives , for the Spirit of Truth leadeth into all truth , John 1.6.13 . which is more then the Scripture will do , though we truly own the Sripture in its place as it testifies of the Truth , and against sin in the generall , yet the Light within must be the more sure Rule , for it shewes unto particular men their particular sins , and shews unto them wherein they are guilty , and opens their eyes and sheweth them the way to Life which is Christ , who enlightens every man coming into the World , and this is more then all outward words or writings . Pr. In pag. 29 , William Bridge saith , If the Law and Light and Spirit that is in me be my rule , then I may do any thing without sin , I may whore , be drunk , steal or any thing without sin , but the Law , Light and Spirit may command me to do such things as these . Ans. Here 's heaps of confusion & horrible blasphemy , for before he confessed that the inward Law and Light doth both incline a man to what is good , and inables him to it , and that it is a great help to us in our way to Life , and against this William Bridge in pag. 29 saith , that the Law or Light or Spirit within you is Christ in you , so you may see how horribly he hath blasphemed against Christ , in making him the author or commander of whoredome , drunkenness and stealing , as by his words appeare , when as Christ condemns all unrighteousness , and all that own Christ in them for their guide and rule , they witness that he is come to condemn sin in the flesh , and not to lead them into whoredome and drunkenness , nor any sin , for he purgeth throughly them that receive him , Mat. 1.21 . and 3.12 . Rom 8.1 , 2 , ● . Pr. If the Law and Light and Spirit that is in me be my Rule , then I am my own rule , and so I am God. Ans. This is false and absurd , and contradicts his own words , for he confessed that the Law or Light or Spirit within is Christ , now then if Christ be my Rule , I am not my own Rule , nor am I God ; for he that hath Christ to rule him , is not ruled by himselfe but by Christ in him , whereby he is come to deny himselfe and to follow Christ. Pr. Pag. 30 , He saith , the Scripture is the first ground of our Faith and Hope . Ans. Then Christ is not your ground nor hope who are out of the Apostles doctrine , for they witnessed that another foundation could no man lay then that which is laid , which is Christ , who was in them their hope , and the Author and Finisher of their faith , 1 Cor. 3. ●1 . Heb. 12.2 . Pr. Pag. 32. Humane Reason is a beam of Divine wisdom , yet if it be not inlightened with a higher Light of the Gospel , it cannot reach unto the things of God. Ans. Here 's both falsehood and absurdity , for a beam of Divine Wisdom is not Humane but Divine , as the Wisdom is from whence it comes , and a beam of Divine Wisdom need not higher light then that Wisdom , by which Wisdom the things of God are reached and known , now he is exceeding blinde who cannot discern Humane reason which is earthly and corruptible , from the Divine Wisdom , which is Incorruptible and eternall . Pr. Pag. 33. T is Revelation Light from the Gospel that doth bring to Heaven . Ans. So now at length he hath granted to the Truth ; but in this he hath overthrown all his former doctrine against revelation , wherein he did set the Scripture above Revelation , and would not have Scripture to give place to the dawning of the speciall Light and Revelation in the heart ; But now is the Light of the Gospel which is the power of God revealed in His People , which hath discovered the blindness and Ignorance of all such blind leaders who are ignorant of the Light and Law of God within , and who are against the knowledge of God in their preaching against Divine revelation , concerning which William Bridge hath so largely shewen his grosse darkness and blasphemies ; And this may be a warning to all his hearers , & all professors who are not wilfully blind to be awakened and cease from such blind watchmen and pastors , who have long fed themselves and not the flocks , and come to Christ the true Shepherd and Pastor who will feed his flock Himselfe . This in tender love was I moved to give forth for the simple ones sake that they may be undeceived ; and let none at the reading hereof be offended at what I have charged against William Bridge aforesaid , for I am willing ( if the Lord so order me , and give me an oportunity ) publickly to prove that he leads the people besides the wayes of God , and teacheth errour in stead of Truth ; this I am willing to prove to his face if the Lord so order me , if William Bridge would stand a fair dispute with me publikly , and stand to his own doctrines ; many more of whose false doctrines I could manifest in his book , which at present I omit THE END . 
A65875	----	No remission without repentance nor will a bare confession withovt a real forsaking of sin avail to the averting God's heavy visitation and judgments from this nation of England, the cause whereof being somewhat more fully declared herein then is confessed in the fast which was appointed for the averting of the same heavy visitation and this concerns both the rulers, clergy, and people of London and Westminster and all parts of this realm to look into and lay to heart who are concerned in the observation of the said fast to consider what fruits they bring forth and whether the end of the true fast be answered by them yea or nea, according to Isa. 58. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1665 Approx. 30 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 8 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65875 Wing W1943 ESTC R27068 09638588 ocm 09638588 43874 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65875) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 43874) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1346:9) No remission without repentance nor will a bare confession withovt a real forsaking of sin avail to the averting God's heavy visitation and judgments from this nation of England, the cause whereof being somewhat more fully declared herein then is confessed in the fast which was appointed for the averting of the same heavy visitation and this concerns both the rulers, clergy, and people of London and Westminster and all parts of this realm to look into and lay to heart who are concerned in the observation of the said fast to consider what fruits they bring forth and whether the end of the true fast be answered by them yea or nea, according to Isa. 58. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 14 p. s.n.], [London : 1665. Signed: G.W. Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion NO REMISSION WITHOUT REPENTANCE , Nor will a bare CONFESSION , WITHOVT A real forsaking of SIN , Avail to the averting God's heavy VISITATION and JUDGMENTS from this Nation OF ENGLAND : The Cause whereof being somewhat more fully declared herein , then is confessed in the FAST which was appointed for the averting of the same heavy Visitation . And this concerns both the Rulers , Clergy , and People of London and Westminster , and all parts of this Realm to look into , and lay to heart , who are concerned in the observation of the said fast , to consider what fruits they bring forth ; And whether the end of the true Fast be answered by them , yea or nay , according to Isa. 58. Printed in the Year 1665. No Remission without Repentance . FIrst , In the Book concerning the order of Fasting , for the averting of God's heavy Visitation upon many places of this Realm ; which Fast was appointed to be observed within the Cities of London and Westminster , and places adjacent , on Wednesday the 12 th . of July ( so called ) and both there and in all parts of this Realm , on the first Wednesday in every Moneth , &c. These following Confessions and open acknowledgements of the causes of this heavy Visitation , are very remarkable , and seriously to be laid to heart , by both Rulers , Priests and People , who are concerned therein , as that with speed they ought to repent and turn from those causes , and endeavour the rectifying of what hath been amiss , and make restitution while yet there remains a little space of breathing , that so thereupon , both this temporal Judgement , and eternal wrath and misery may be escaped , where yet there remains any place of repentance . Observe , that in the warning given of the Fast , it s given in these words , viz. And with penitent hearts to pray unto God to turn these Plagues from us , which we through our unthankfulnesse and sinful lives have deserved , &c. And especially they are to take heed that they spend not the day , viz. of the Fast , in playes , pastimes , idlenesse , haunting of Taverns and Alehouses , lacivious wantonnesse , surfeiting or drunkenness , for which and other sins of our Nation , the heavy displeasure and wrath of God is fallen upon us . And that among the Prayers in the Letany to be said by the People after the Minister , it s thus confessed , viz , For our transgressions multiplied against thee as the sand of the Sea shore , might justly bring over us a deluge of thy wrath ; the cry of our sins that hath pierc'd the very heavens , might well return with showers of vengeance upon our heads , while our earth is defiled under the inhabitants thereof , what wonder if thou commandest an evil Angel to pour out-his Uial into our Air to fill it with infection , and the noysom Pestilence , and so to turn the very breath of our life into the savour of death unto us all , &c. O let us live , and we will praise thy Name , and these Iudgements shall teach us to look every man into the plague of his own heart , that being cleansed from all our sins , we may serve thee with pure hearts all our dayes , &c. Now as for these Confessions before , they are very true and remarkable ; and these great abominations and crying sins , which greatly abound in this Nation , both among Priests and very many of their followers and upholders , have greatly provoked the most High , and grieved his holy Spirit , and vexed the righteous souls of his people , who cannot joyn nor have unity with such a Church and Priesthood as this , that 's guilty of such gross iniquity and provocations against God , as these mentioned are ; which have even pierc'd the very Heavens , which whilst you ( that are so deeply concerned herein , do pray to be cleansed from all your sins , and to serve God with pure hearts all your dayes ) do neither really endeavour so to be cleansed , by ceasing to do those wicked acts whereof you are guilty , and inclining to the witness of Truth in your consciences , that in secret reprehends and reproves you , nor yet believes that such a state is attainable in this life by any , as the being cleansed from all your sins , and serving God with pure hearts ( for your Priests believe it not , but oppose it , though they pray for it ) how can you but have the Plague in your own hearts , they being given up to rebellion and hardness ? and how can you but fear death and destruction , which many both of the lofty and proud ones , Priests and People are greatly surprised with the fear of , who thereupon have fled from these Cities of London and Westminster , and have left the poor and oppressed in it , where many of the servants of Christ called Quakers do still lye in prisons and nasty holes , meerly for their conscience towards God , for assembling together in his fear , and worship in ●pirit ; for which many are sentenced for Banishment into strange and forreign remote Plantations , from their native places and Relations , and endeavours have been much used for the transporting of them ( some of which being already Shipt away from hence ) Oh , the great oppressions , and both unchristian and inhumane proceedings and usage that many have met withal upon this account , both by their long imprisonment , and so many being crouded together in prisons nigh a year after they were sentenced , that for want of convenient room and accomodation , being so crouded up and oppressed in such nasty holes and places of cruelty and slaughter , this hath occasioned the death of many innocent persons , both Men and Maids . Oh! do not these inhumanities , cruelties and oppressions , even pierce the Heavens ? and should you not have confessed this your great crying , and Land-ruining sin of persecuting and destroying the poor and innocent people of God ? though you have omitted that among your Confessions , yet you cannot clear your selves in the sight of God herein , but his witness will pursue you whither ever you go ; and as if there were not cruelty enough used to destroy the innocent in prisons , or as if the destroying of them here , in this City and Nation , would be too much taken notice of where they and their innocency is known . Another course is lately taken with near 60. of them , tending more speedily and hiddenly to destroy & kill the poor innocent Lambs , in their being forced on Ship-board by rude souldiers and others , into an insufficient old leaking Vessel , intended for their Transportation , where they cannot lye dry in their beds , and where also the deck is so low over them , that they are fain to creep under it ; since which four of the Prisoners , died on Ship-board , and many more of them are sick ; and this was since the observation of the said Fast : but do you think that this Fast or observation of a day , will either avert God's heavy Judgements , or be accepted of him , whilst his innocent servants are thus persecuted as sheep for the slaughter , for the true and spiritual worship , when instead of loosing their bands , and removing their heavy burthens , and letting them who are oppressed go free , their bonds and burthens are made stronger and heavier , when as you should have removed their heavy burdens , and released them out of prisons , which you have not , so as the Cry of their sad sufferings remains against you ; when as the Lord said by his Prophet , Isa. 58. Is not this the Fast I have chosen , to loose the bands of wickedness , to undo the heavy burdens , and to let the oppressed go free , and to break every yoak ? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry , and to bring the poor that are cast out to thy house , and to cover the naked , &c. But where is this Fast observed among you ? and how do you manifest any forsaking of these great evils which you are guilty of , which your bare Confessions , without a real forsaking of them , will never obtain Remission to you at the hand of the righteous God. And , Oh the the hardness of heart , and want of pity and Christianity , that is in this Nation amongst men one to another in these times of distress and calamity , and how far they are from observing the true Fast wherein there should be a fasting from strife , cruelty & oppression , which causeth the Land to mourn , and greatly incurs the displeasu●e of God against this City and Nation , whilst as is confessed in the order of the said appointed Fast , concerning the misery and distress of a number of hungry souls in many places , either almost starving for lack of food , being sick with eating unwholsom meats , as it 's said , so that even hardness of heart is greatly apparent in the members of Englands Church one against another , who are not willing either to harbour or entertain one another in their houses in times of distress ; the Egyptian fear having so universally seized upon the spirits of men in this day , and even the dread and horrors of death pursues the guilty on every hand . Oh! that men would be awakened to see what poverty , miseries and calamities appr●ach this City and Nation which ( if the Lord prevent not , ) will greatly m●ke for its undoing , which are occasioned through their great provocations against God , which though they neither repent nor reform , yet are made to confess them in part , as the cause of Gods anger now appearing against them : As also in that Exhortation fit for the time ( as is said ) annexed to the Prayers in the said Book , in these words , viz. In these evil dayes of ours , our transgressions in number more , and in degrée more hainous then those of Israel , have filled full the measure of iniquity , and caused God to fill full the cup of his wrath , and given us the deadly wine to drink : The people of Israel required meats for their lusts , and the people of England nourish their lusts for their meats , giving over themselves to surfeiting and drunkennesse ; and as those that make their belly their God , and their glor●●●●ir shame , are become a by-word to neighbour Nations , for 〈◊〉 and belly-chear , &c. Which Confession is very true upon 〈◊〉 of this Nation , but especially of the Priests , who many of them are leading Examples to the people , both in Gluttony and Drunkenness , &c. making their belly their God ; insomuch , that many of them are become the common and Table talk therein of the vulgar sort , who are their own followers : so that we are not to be blamed , nor ought to be persecuted as we are , for not joyning with them in worship , or not conforming with them , they being thus filthy and abominable in their lives and conversations ; so as men cannot in truth nor reason look upon that to be a true Church , that 's either made up of such Members , or hath such for its Leaders : And now if after the Bishops and Priests have laid down these gross evils mentioned , which are in their own Church , as the cause of Gods displeasures in sending forth this Pestilence , they would lay the cause elsewhere , upon all the dissenters from them , and so put it from themselves , or any of them , and say it 's because they have not rid the Nation of ( or banished ) the Quakers and other Sectaries , that strive with their Princes and Priests ( as is said ) &c. This will neither clear , nor yet cover them , whilst both their own Confessions here mentioned , and the great fear of death by this Calamity that hath surprized many , of both the Priests and their followers ( divers of the great Priests of London being fled upon it , and left their Flocks , and left poor Curates , or such like Hirelings behind them ) this doth manifest how deeply they are concerned in the cause of the present Calamity . As also it s apparently unrighteous and false judgement to impute the cause to their not sending the Quakers out of the Land , when as this Pestilence did not appear in this City ( nor was this Nation troubled with it for several years before ) till there was a going about to banish Us called Quakers ; and for the accomplishing whereof , our Persecutors have not been wanting in their endeavours : howbeit , as they have encreased their cruelty against us , the Plague hath encreased , and the Lord hath apparently many times , crossed , obstructed and confounded them in their undertakings , when they have gone about to send some of us away , though hardness of heart , pride and violence hath so much taken place , that they will not see , but pursue and persecute the Innocent , till their Plagues and Calamities be increased upon them to their ruine , if they stop not , in these harsh and cruel proceedings against us , who are innocent and clear from any sedition or evil deportment , either against Prince or Nation , though very unjustly we have been often accused in this particular , and almost upon every flyi●● report of any sedition or Plot , we have been the people liable to suffer , and unjustly to be imprisoned , without any ground , reason , or absolute colour thereof against us ; but herein we partake of the Son of God his sufferings , who was proceeded against , even to death , by his persecutors , not only as a Blasphemer , but as a seditious Person , as making himself a King , and so for being an enemy to Caesar , when as his Kingdom was not of this world ; so the Priests and Rulers joyned together in Enmity against him , and he was hated by them without a cause , as we are . And although it has been customary to the Priests in our age to exalt themselves over others by the help of the Magistrates , and to mix their own interests with the Princes ( accusing people with striving with their Princes , and with their Priests ) and so to accuse others with sedition , as if they were clear themselves ; yet , who have been more forward to preach up War , and louder Trumpets to stir the people up to fight then many of them have been ? When they have been jealous that , that side would not serve their turn , that , they have preached against and cursed ; as also , upon every change of Government , how have they turned their tale , and changed their form of Worship , and endeavoured to ingratiate themselves into favour with them that were ( or like to be ) the uppermost , and all for their own ends ; let the Nation herein testifie against them . Again , it s thus confessed , viz. In sum , the holy Word of God , and the Ministry thereof , is not justly reverenced , but despised ; his holy Sacraments either totally neglected or abused in many places , neither rightly administred nor ●eceived , &c. The holy Service and publick worship of God , in the beauty of holiness , not frequented as it ought , &c. To which I say , indeed it 's very true ; the holy Word of God , and the true Ministry , ( which is not of man , nor by man , but appointed and sent of God ) has been very much despised , and the true Ministers persecuted and imprisoned , by the means or cause of such as are made Ministers by the will of man , and their upholders , who are like Priests and like people , many of them given to surfeiting drunkenness , making their belly their God , and to idleness , haunting of Taverns and Alehouses , lacivious , wantonness , &c. as is confessed , whom we cannot look upon to be in the beauty of Holiness , nor in the holy service or worship of God therein ; for who can b●●●g a clean thing out of an unclean ? And as for the word Sacr●●●nt , it was reckoned by some of the Learned , to belong to Divine things , who put Sacrament for Mystery , which is not outward or carnal things ; but if your Sacraments ( so called ) in many places , be neither rightly administred nor received , it is a very sad and unreasonable thing to compel people to receive them where they are not rightly administred , or else to make them suffer imprisonment or spoyling of their Goods , for not frequenting your Parish-Churches ( so called ) when in many of them there are no right administrators of those things you would force men to , but such as are in hypocrisie and superstition . ( as is afterward confessed ) again , it s added ) viz. The Portion of God is invaded , his Altars robbed of Tythes and Offerings , and holy things of all sorts profanely and sacriledgiously devoured , &c. To which I answer , many such things have the Priests brought forth , & pretended for their own ends , as if their concernment herein were Gods concernment for them ; but they were Robbers of God in the time of the Law , who with-held the Tythes from the Storehouse , where the Fatherless , Widows , and Strangers were also to be relieved out of them , Deut. 14. and so whilst the Law for Tythes , upon a Divine account , is owned by the Priests to be still in force ( though many of them have laid down that Plea ) are not they guilty herein of this Robbery and Sacriledge ( as they count it ) and so condemned out of their own mouths , whilst they claim Tythes by Gods Law , but will not suffer them to be disposed of according to the end for which they were first given ; for in the time of the Law it was said , Ye have robbed God in Tythes and Offerings , bring ye all the Tythes to the Store-house , &c. Mal. 3. And What havock and spoyle have they made of many poor men , both in their persons and Estates , by imprisoning many and spoyling their Goods , far beyond the value of the Tythes demanded , for that they for conscience sake could not put into their mouths , nor pay them Tythes , to satisfie their greedy insatiable desires , they judging that they have no right to them by the Law of God , for many reasons ; and that they proceeded from the Pope , in their being imposed for the use of the Priests ; for before were they not deemed pure Alms ? whilst they were a free gift to the Church ( that was then ) and for the relief of the poor in it ( from whence was that saying in some old Laws derived , viz. of their being due to God and holy Church ) till the Clergy robbed the Poo●●y procuring them into their own hands , by the force of Law ▪ made in the times of Apostacy , wherein the professed Christians became estranged from the Life and example of the true Christians and Ministers . And while they force both the Tythes from people , and from many take more by manifold then the Tythe amounts to , why do they blame others for robbery , when they have so robbed , spoyled and oppressed them , and have even burthened and caused the whole Nation to groan under their covetous practices and Antichristian yoaks , they being against Christ , and repugnant to his Law , and the innocent Example of his Ministers , so that the earth is grown so sick of them , that its ready to vomit them out , as it hath done , with many that went in their steps before them , and will do with all the workers of iniquity and Oppressors , who are partakers with them ; against whom let the great cry of oppression testifie in most Country Goals in this Nation , wherein many of the Innocent servants of Christ deeply suffered , either because they cannot joyn with them in their worship , or maintain them . And against these Oppressors and Persecutors ( who have acted more like ravening Wolves , then either like God's People , or Sheep of his Pasture ) we must confess Christ in principle and example , as he hath changed the Priesthood of Levi , and disanulled the Law and Commandement which upheld the Tythes , Offerings , and Altars . See Heb. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10th . Chapters . And in the Light and Spirit of our God we know an Altar , one Offering , and a Tabernacle , Sanctuary , or House that 's Heavenly , which is the substance or Antitype and end of the outward or worldly Sanctuary , Temple , Tythes , Offerings , carnal Ordinances , &c. And moreaver it 's added , viz. Our hypocrisie and superstition , open profaneness , and irreligion against God himself , and generally for our dissolute and licentious and most unchristian conversation of all sorts ( most directly contrary to the righteous Laws and great Example of the most holy Iesus our Lord ) the Name of God is polluted , and his blessed Gospel evil spoken of amongst the adversaries of Truth , through us ; so that we néed séek no further , the cause is apparent why the Plague is broken out amongst us , God having threatned us in his Word as the people of Israel , that because we will not obey the voice of the Lord to do all his Commandements and his Ordinances which he commands 〈◊〉 he will smite us with a Consumption , and with a Fever , and with a burning Ague , and cause the Pestilence to cleave unto us , until he hath consumed us from the Land ; and thus much of the cause of the Pestilence . Now you that have such a large Confession , and who are herein guilty , both of hypocrisie and superstition , open profaneness , and most unchristian conversation , of all sorts , &c. which is the apparent cause why the Plague is broken forth ; your own Confession will stand against you in the Judgement , if you go on in that sinful state , and persist in your unchristian conversation , which greatly appears in your unchristian proceeding against such as are of tender consciences , to imprisonment and banishment who dissent from you , which they have ground enough for , against you , whilst you act thus directly contrary to Christs example , who came not to destroy men lives , but to save them ; and if you do not reform from these great iniquities and abominations , to remove your sins out of the sight of God ( which you confess to be the remedy that remains ) but still go in your unchristian conversation of all sorts , in which is included , your persecuting and oppressing the Innocent , and the Widows and Fatherless , for which God threatned Israel with his wrath and indignation ; it will fall heavy upon you , when you you do not only so , but also make many Widows , and Fatherless , and strangers from their own Land ( so far as you are permitted ) by going about to Banish innocent men from their Wives , and Fathers from their children : does not this cry in the ears of the Lord ? and may you not dread and tremble before the Lord God , and be afraid of his heavy Judgements and displeasure , which you incur by these your iniquities ? and if the Lord should give you a little respite by abating the present calamity , and you thereupon harden your hearts the more against us , and think to persecute us afresh , know that assuredly , the Lord can fall upon you afresh with his Judgements , which you cannot escape if you persist without repentance and reforming ; and though that many that are innocent as infants , and others ( who have not contributed to those gross evils , and great provocations mentioned ) may be taken away in the time of this Calamity and Pestilence , do not you ( who are our Persecutors , ) thereupon think to put the cause of it from your selves , you being so deeply guilty , according to your own Confessions ; for all upon whom outwardly this may or does come , though occasioning their death , are not guilty of the cause of it ; as mentioned , for the Lords going about thus to thin , & thus to depopulate this City or Nation , both of many old and young , was first occasioned by the great inquities and crying sins of Persecution , Oppression and unchristian conversation of all sorts ; but those that are innocent , and the righteous who are taken away from the evil to come ( which their enemies do not consider ) they are taken away in mercy , as to them , and their fear is not like to their enemies fear , who are surprized with an Egyptian fear , and ready to be consumed with terrors ; who though the Lord hath smitten , and doth smite as in the dayes of old , yet they return not to him ; See Amos 4. And furthermore , this following Confession of your own I leave with you , touching these great and gross abominations that are found among you , who persecute us who are innocent herein , for our Conscience and Religion , because we cannot conform nor joyn with you in worship , among whom such pollutions are found as is here confessed , viz. The people of Israel committed whoredom with the daughters of Moab , and are there not many of the daughters of England too like to those of Moab ? and too many Zimiries amongst us , whose fornication are notorious and scandalous in the sight of the world , who care not to conceal their abominations , blush not at their crimes , but impudently boast and glory in their shame , and therefore no marvel if God himself stand forth to plague the Land for them : Add to these , that we have perhaps with David lifted up our hearts because of the multitude of our people ; magnified our selves , that we are a mighty and populous Nation , placing our confidence in the arm of flesh , and ascribing to our selves , and to our own strength or skill , our valour or conduct , that honour and victory over our enemies , which God hath purchased unto himfelf for his own glory . Take notice of these your ample and large Confessions , and consider your latter end , you that are herein guilty , both high and low , and how you have rejected the Lord God and his counsel , in confiding in the arm of flesh , by which you and your Priests have gone about to set up and establish your Religion , Church and Worship , by persecuting , imprisoning , and banishing such as are innocent and conscientious towards God , in his Light and Spirit ; though you confess , that in preparing your selves to leave this world , what one thing is more necessary then a charitable heart towards all , let God's witness in you all judge and testifie against you herein , whose cruel practices and unchristian-like proceedings against the innocent , manifests both your want of charity , love , and moderation , and natural affection : And as to the large Apology that 's made for mens avoiding of the Contagion , as for not mingling the sound with the sick , but to shun and avoid the persons and places that are infected , and that we should be careful to avoid it , &c. But why do you then keep so many innocent persons , both men and women thronged in prisons for their consciences , both in London and many other places , in these you reckon dangerous and contagious times ? And whether doth it not appear to be rather out of a design to destroy them , then any charitableness , to imprison such persons in or about this City ( in such a place of Mortality as Newgate , wherein men are liable to be infected or stifled till death ) for meeting innocently together to serve and worship God in Spirit ? What will be the end of such , both uncharitable and inhumane proceedings against innocent persons , to confine them in such places of slaughter and cruelty ? Let the righteous God judge in this case , who though he either can preserve or take away mens lives as he pleaseth ( and hath wonderfully preserved many of his servants in that place ) yet it 's quite contrary to the charity pretended by you , either to imprison or confine harmless persons in such places , to murder and destroy them . And now we see , that that custom of the Priests , accompanying of the bodies of the dead unto the grave , which is accounted Christian and laudible , and their commending them in decent manner to their Rest ( as is said ) and their reading and praying over the dead . This they are fain to lay aside in divers places , for fear of the Contagion , which their superstition will not bear them up above , and so now they can plead for no more to accompany the dead , then is needful for their Interring . Herein they may see how they are put to it and confounded , and how the Judgement of God has appeared against them , and their inventions by which they have vexed him , till the Plague is broken forth , as of old , Psal. 106.29 . but how have many of their Church exclaimed against the people called Quakers , for not burying their dead according to the Popish way , or their superstition and invention , which is counted decency ; and how in many places have the bodies of the dead been forced from them upon this occasion ? and not only so , but some of our friends at Amersham , had both the corps rudely forced from them , and were lately imprisoned in Buckingham-shire , for accompanying the dead towards the burying ground , with unparalleld and unreasonable proceeding against the Innocent , did cry through the Countreys . Many and innumerable are the injuries which we have undergone since we were a people ; but we commit our cause to the Lord God , and desire him to judge and make decision in righteousness , between us and our Oppressors ; and where yet a place of repentance remains for any of them , they may haste to find it , that remission of sins may be received , which we have sought and desired for our enemies , by often warning and informing them , as not desiring the death of sinners , but rather that they should return and live ; but how many have slighted their visitation , and stopped their ears , and made their hearts as an Adament , as those that are hastning on their own destruction and perpetual misery , I leave it to the All-seeing and only wise God , and his just witness in all to determine ? who will rebuke Princes and Nations for his own Name and suffering Seeds sake , with which I am a sufferer . G. W. London , the 14 th . day 6 th Month , 1665. THE END· 
A65834	----	An antidote against the venome of The snake in the grass, or, The book so stiled and the Christian people called Quakers vindicated from its most gross abuses and calumnies in certain reflections detecting the nameless author's malice, outrage, and persecution against the said people : unto which is annex'd a brief examination of the author's second book stil'd Satan dis-rob'd : also, some notice taken of his discourse for The divine institution of water-baptism. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1697 Approx. 383 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 145 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65834 Wing W1889 ESTC R27066 09638516 ocm 09638516 43872 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65834) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 43872) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1346:5) An antidote against the venome of The snake in the grass, or, The book so stiled and the Christian people called Quakers vindicated from its most gross abuses and calumnies in certain reflections detecting the nameless author's malice, outrage, and persecution against the said people : unto which is annex'd a brief examination of the author's second book stil'd Satan dis-rob'd : also, some notice taken of his discourse for The divine institution of water-baptism. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [2], xi, 268, [4] p. Printed for Tho. Northcott, London : 1697. "Impartial reader" signed: G.W. and signed on p. 185, George Whitehead. Reproduction of original in the Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Leslie, Charles, 1650-1722. -- Snake in the grass. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-11 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion AN ANTIDOTE AGAINST THE VENOME OF The Snake in the Grass : Or , the Book so stiled . AND THE Christian People CALLED QUAKERS Vindicated from its most gross Abuses and Calumnies . In certain Reflections , detecting the nameless Author's Malice , Outrage and Persecution against the said People . Unto which is Annex'd , A brief Examination of the Author's second Book , stil'd , Satan Dis-rob'd . Also , Some Notice taken of his Discourse for the Divine Institution of Water-Baptism . Psal. 83. 3. They devise deceitful Matters against them that are quiet in the Land. London : Printed for Tho. Northcott , in George-yard in Lombard-street . 1697. THE BOOKSELLER TO THE READER . Friendly Reader , THE so long delay of this Answer to The Snake in the Grass , has been chiefly the Printers occasion , and partly to have some Answer to his latter Book , still'd , Satan Disrob'd . So , Reader , that thou may'st be preserved from the Venom of this Snake , in all his twistings and twinings , is the desire of him , who wisheth the Well-fare of all Men. T. N. ERRATA . PAge 37. l. 13. r. Persecutors l. 38. dele as p. 56. l. 6. r. Kingdoms , p. 81. l. 1. r. Prosecution , p. 166. l. 30. for them in r. in them , p. 167. l. 12. for reprobachs r. reproaches , p. 200. l. 25. r. universally , p. 204. l. 7. r. who rendred , p. 232. l. 4. r. of Sin and Death , l. 5. r. of Life , p. 235. l. 13. d. 60. Some litteral Faults and Points mis-placed , may be understood by the sense of the matters . Impartial Reader , AFter the perusal of the said Snake in the Grass , seeing the gross and absurd Aspersions , Calumnies , Perversions and scornful Stuff therein Contained , and the great Malice of the nameless Author's Spirit against the People called Quakers ; It was slighted by us and laid aside for some Months , being stuft with many lying and incredible Stories , as scarce deserving any particular Answer , except the notice of some few to discredit the Author and invalidate his fruitless attempts of his foul Envy and Falshood : But some indifferent Persons being urgent for an Answer , and the said Book being rendred as an unanswerable Piece , by some too easily imposed upon , and others in prejudice gave occasion for the insuing Reflections to be Exhibited , in order to obviate the injurious Design of the Author and his Abettors ( i.e. ) some wrathful , implacable and perfidious Apostates , who are of those Cattle he has principally Plowed withal , and from whom he has chiefly derived his unjust Authority to Defame and Scandalize the said People , with those old , false and refuted Aspersions and Slanders , as Possessed with the Devil , Enthusiastick Madness , Blasphemy , Heresie , denying the true Christ and his holy Humanity or Manhood , real Sufferings and Satisfaction , and the Resurrection , and Contemning the Holy Scriptures , Doctrins and Precepts therein contained , with abundance more of such like Calumnies and Slanders , Abuses and Perversions ( of our Words and Doctrins ) frequently answered and refuted by divers of us in our former and latter Books . And now because of our present Ease and Liberty , which Mercy our Gracious God hath influenced the present Government to afford us , from our late grievous and destructive Persecutions , ( for which Liberty we are truly thankful . ) For this Cause the Devil and his Agents appear the more enraged and to have exceeding great Wrath against the remnant of the true Seed , and to combine together to persecute us , with their most shameful Reproaches , Abuses , Lyes and Slanders , which is the present Persecution we are under . When the Devil was suffered to imploy his Agents to Oppress and Persecute us in our Persons and Estates , by severe Imprisonments and spoil of Goods , tending to Ruin us and our Families , then the Pens of his Clerks and Ministers were quiet towards us : But seeing his and their wicked ends by that kind of open and cruel Persecution could not be accomplished upon us ; now they bend their perverse Studies and Pens to persecute us with shameful Reproach and Blasphemy , to Destroy and Murther our Reputations both as Men and Christians , not sparing either the Living or the Dead . The Lord our God will rebuke their Fury and Outrage , and confound their mischievous Devices and Confederacies ; even the just and righteous God ( who by his power supported us under our deepest Sufferings and Persecutions , and gave us Faith and Courage then to Face the severest Storms and Blustering Winds which rose up against us for our Christian Testimony and Assemblies ) he hath enabled and will enable us to face and outface this Storm of envious and outragious Persecution of our open and secret Enemies . And 't is no small shame and disparagement for such Eminent Church of England Men ( as the Author of the Snake in the Grass would seem one of them ) to be beholding to pretended Quakers , such as , George Keith and Thomas Crisp , for their Aid or Authority against us ; and to F. Bugg's Authority also , who has been detected of numerous Falshoods against us , since he left us , and turned to the Priests and to the Publick ( as he calls it ) and the said George Keith contrary to his many and frequent Vindications of the People called Quakers and their Principles , and above thirty Years Conversation among them , now turned an open Adversary to Revile and Reproach them , and yet a falsly pretended Quaker , as if he would ingratiate himself into favour with the worst of our Enemies ; the Day will yet further discover him and them . I confess , where Persons of a contrary Judgment to us , appear moderate and civil in their Discourse and Treatment , in things wherein they differ from us , they deserve to be gently and tenderly Answered and Treated ; and if such suppose me mistaken in any thing or circumstance of words , ( from which I intend not altogether to excuse my self in all Controversies from my young and early Years , and yet be assured by the Spirit of Truth in matters Essential to Salvation ) I would take kindly their civil and friendly Discovery thereof to me , being desirous that the Truth may be exalted above all Self-reputation . But when I find Persons like this Author of The Snake in the Grass , maliciously set in a persecuting Spirit , to defame and reproach Truth and our Christian Society , which I am concerned in Conscience for . I confess then , a holy Zeal the Lord raises , and has raised in my very Heart and Soul , against such bitter Implacable and Persecuting Spirits . And the Lord's Power I have felt , and do still feel it to accompany and inable me in Defence of his blessed Truth and People . And inasmuch as the said Author of The Snake in the Grass , is so very liberal in his most odious Characters upon us , and has so frequently Branded us , even divers Persons by Name with Blasphemies and Heresies , &c. who have been , and are known to be Persons of good Reputation , both as Men and Christians in Life and Conversation : 'T is pity but this Defaming Author , should be publickly exposed by Name for his Folly and outrage , especially if he persists in his Scorn and envious injurious attempts against us , that he may not be suffered to sculk and hide himself like a Snake under Grass . And as to the seven Queries , which he upbraids us with , reproaching us , As puting them all off with one general Answer , &c. as a trick and deceit of ours , to hide and cover our monstrous Heresies , and a full confession of our Heresies , Pref. p. 350. Which being monstrous Calumnies , and from which our general Answer to the unprejudiced , clears us , though we expected it would meet with such ill Treatment and Mis-construction , as it hath from G. K. and this Author ; therefore thought meet to publish the said Answer herewith , for the information of others more Charitable and Impartial , than this our present Accuser and unjust Judge . The said Queries appear to be of so little weight , and some of them so indirect and in unscriptural Terms , and perversly designed for cavil , that I do not think they deserve to be reprinted here . The following Answer being positive , plain and scriptural , as well as comprehensive , of what 's necessary to be said to the matters chiefly Questioned . And tho' I have long had a more particular Answer to the said Queries ready , I do not think my self obliged at present , to gratifie such imperious arbitrary Inquisitors as our present Adversaries with the publication thereof ; but rather for farther information in these matters chiefly Queried , refer them and others , to these our Books , viz. First , A Testimony of what we believe of Christ , both as he was God and Man , &c. By G. F. Printed , Anno 1677. And , Secondly , The Christian Doctrin and Society of the People called Quakers , &c. And , Thirdly , The Harmony of the Old and New Testament , concerning our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ , &c. With many more ancient Books , whereby it may appear , that we were not to seek our Faith , concerning Jesus and the Resurrection , before the said Queries came to our hands . G. W. Lon. 3d day 4th Month call'd June , 1695. Friend William Lancaster , HAving received a Paper of great Objections against us , the People called Quakers , with seven Queries therein , subscribed William Lancaster , directed to our Yearly Meeting in Whitson-week , 1695. and delivered to some of us very near the conclusion thereof , and therefore only read in the said Meeting , with not having any further time to consider the Contents thereof , or to give any particular answer thereunto : It was by the said Meeting left to a few to consider and answer , as in the Fear of God and Meekness of Wisdom we should see Cause . Wherein we observe is noted , great Objections have been made against us , by those who have departed from our Communion as by others . To which we reply , that 't is true , and they have been answer'd , to which we refer . And we observe in the said Paper it s said , We would not take an account of you only from your Adversaries , &c. And we have chosen this solemn Time. And again , And we have chosen this most proper and convenient Opportunity , &c. And then states the several Queries , and says , the Questions may be proposed , and their Answer demanded . Now the Objections having been publick , and our Answers publick , we desire to know , who the We are , that are intended in this Paper , that we may apply our selves to them , or give such Scriptural Answers , as we hope may tend to satisfaction . But to repeat Answers in writing or print to we know not who , so often as demanded , to the same things already answer'd , We think it not needful . Therefore have herewith only sent thee a few brief Lines , being grosly Wronged and Misrepresented in the said Objections , and divers of the Queries contain several Questions in them , in different Terms ( and some Vnscriptural ) so not plain and direct Queries , therefore cannot positively be answer'd by our simple YEA or NAY , to each Query as designed . We therefore at present send this general Answer to the Queries for thy information as follows , viz. We sincerely believe and profess Jesus Christ and the Resurrection according to the Holy Scripture Testimony , and to that measure of Vnderstanding which God hath been pleased to give us by his Holy Spirit . We sincerely believe in Jesus Christ , the only begotten Son of the living God , both as he is true God , and perfect Man ; our Emanuel and Mediator and as in the fulness of Time , he was Conceiv'd by the Holy Ghost , Born of the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem of Judea ; Suffer'd under Pontius Pilate , was Crucified and put to Death ; was Buried , rose again the third Day , and visibly Ascended into Heaven , and was received into Glory ; and that this same Jesus Christ that was Crucified , shall so in like manner come ( as he was seen to go into Heaven ) in Power and great Glory to Judge both the Living and the Dead , according to their Works at the last and great Day of Judgment , in that great Harvest which is the End of the World. And that by Jesus Christ there shall be a Resurrection of the Dead , both of the Just and Vnjust unto the righteous Judgment of the great Day ; consequently , that the Resurrection is not past , as Hymeneus and Philetus said , 2 Tim. 2. 18. And that the Dead shall be raised incorruptible , Every Man in his own order , and that our low Body shall be changed , and made like unto Christ's glorious Body : The Resurrection of the Bodies of the Saints ( We Believe ) shall be Spiritual and Glorious , and that the Sons of God , and of the Resurrection shall be equal with the Angels of God in Heaven , and shine as the Sun in the Kingdom of their Father ; and yet there is such a great Mystery in the Resurrection , as that Flesh and Blood cannot Inherit the Kingdom of God , neither doth Corruption inherit Incorruption , 1 Cor. 15. The whole Sacrifice of Christ ( whereof his Blood outwardly that was shed was a part ) was of great Price with God for Mans Redemption : Christ's Blood that was shed without the Gates of Jerusalem , together with the whole Sacrifice himself both of Soul and Body , was a true Propitiation and Attonement for Mans reconciliation and peace with God for remission of Sins , through a living Faith , and true Repentance ( in his Name ) given and wrought by his Spirit and Word of Power in Mens Hearts ; whose sincere obedience to Christ , and Walking in his Light , being required of them , in order to experience Christ the Author of their eternal Salvation , and to wash them from their Sins in his own Blood. For without this true Faith , Repentance and Obedience to Christ Jesus , Men lose and forfeit the great Benefit of Christs Sufferings , and deprive themselves of the Eternal Redemption and Salvation , which he hath hereby obtain'd for us . Tho' he dyed for all Men , tasted death for every Man , and gave himself a Ransom for all , to be testified of in due time , being a true Propitiation for the Sins of the World. From thy Friends and Well-wishers , John Gratton . Samuell Wattson . Thomas Lower . James Parke . John Bowater . George Witehead . John Vaughton . AN ANTIDOTE AGAINST THE VENOME OF The Snake in the Grass : BEING A Sober Caution against the great Malice and gross Abuses of the Book so stiled ; and the People call'd QUAKERS defended from the same . SEeing the nameless Author gives his Book the Title of The Snake in the Grass ; or , Satan transform'd into an Angel of Light ; which Character he intends for the principal Leaders of those People called Quakers . It may be observed ( by the way ) what other Characters , Charges and Languages he gives the said People , and treats them with all in his said Book , viz. Preface , p. 7 , 8 , 9 , 17. False Prophets , mad Enthusiasm , obstinate Quakers , their Rage , their Folly , rank wild Blasphemy , proud blasphemous Spirit , black-Mouth'd hellish Venom , Coujurers , Witchcraft and Conjuration ; p. 19. whatever the Power of the Devil may be in such cases , &c. There never were more visible and dreadful Effects of it , no not in any possess'd Men mentioned in the Gospel , than has been among the Quakers , p. 21. even as declared and witnessed by themselves , and that not only as to the strange and preternatural Distortions , Quaking and Shaking of their Bodies , past the Power of any to counterfeit or to act it by their natural Strength , but what is much more horrible and exceeding all other Witchcrafts and Possessions of the Devil , that were ever heard of before ; these possess'd Quakers do impiously blaspheme and call themselves Christ ; and some of them have imitated his Passion , Death and Resurrection , madly in themselves . We may hence observe , First , the Authors most unjust and falsly reflecting these black Characters and Charges upon the Quakers . Secondly , How he shews Satan transform'd into an Angel of Light : When and where did he ever see or read of an Angel of Light , thus to appear , like a mad Man , a Witch , a Devil , a Blasphemer ? What horrid Madness , Blasphemy and Self-contradiction , does the Devil and Malice precipitate , such furious foul-Mouth'd persecuting Agents into , at unawares ? Thirdly , But if the Quakers were such Madmen , and possess'd with the Devil as he represents them , how well has the Man spent his time , in bestowing his Wit , Drollery and Raillery ( instead of Compassion ) on such Madmen , whose case ( if such ) were to be lamented , rather than derided ? Fourthly , For this great Madness and being possessed with the Devil , as 't is cast upon the Quakers . His instance ( of John Gilpin in 1653. James Milner and John Toldervy ) p. 22 , 23 , 24 , 30 , 34. can only prove himself impertinently malicious , and can no more affect the People called Quakers , nor be any more valid Argument to prove them Mad-men and Blasphemers , ( since they have long since testified against the madness of those Persons he mentions ) than if one should argue against the Church and Clergy of England , thus , viz. That because many of their Members have run Mad and been put into Bedlam , therefore the Church and Clergy of England are all Mad , and must be turned into Bedlam ( if they had one big enough : ) And many such other absurd Arguments and Consequences might be retalliated upon this Snake in the Grass , if from a Particular to a General , shall be admitted as a sound way of Arguing , which no rational Man will allow . Fifthly , His Instance ( against the Quakers ) of James Nayler's failure , and suffering a few mad Women to sing Hosanna to him . This is as unjustly as maliciously remembred and cast upon us , seeing that Madness was condemned and testified against by the People called Quakers . And the Lord , in mercy , made James Nayler himself sensible of the great Temptation and Cloud , he was , for a time , fallen under ; insomuch , that he not only gave out a publick Testimony of his Condition , and of the Lord 's dealing with him , which was in Judgment and Mercy , and publickly exposed under the Title of James Nayler's Recantation ; but also some are yet alive that were both Eye-witnesses of his many Tears and deep Humiliation , besides his great suffering in Person by the then Government , who being restored into his right Understanding and Sense of the Love and Mercy of God in Christ , sometime after innocently ended his Days in Peace . And therefore it shews , the more implacable Malice and horrid Injustice , to reproach us with any personal failing of his or any other . And not only so , but to reflect personal Miscarriages upon our Principles : As where he thus unjustly infers , viz. So very susceptible do the Quakers Principles make Men , of the wild Impressions of Enthusiasm , p. 35. So that by this Inference , all Gilpins , Milners and Toldervy's strange Whimsies , lying Imaginations and Madness , are unjustly and blasphemously father'd upon the Quakers Principles , viz. The Light within , Revelation , the Infalibility , p. 35. ( which we intend of the Holy Spirit 's Teaching ) and no other . 6. P. 37. As for Quaking and Trembling so much derided ; how proves he that this proceeds from Delusion and Diabollical Possession , p. 44. and not from the Word and Power of God , at which many good Men , both of Prophets , Apostles and Primitive Christians , have trembled ? And also by the same Power , both wicked Men and Devils , have been , and shall be made to Fear , Tremble and Quake . 7. As to such strange , preternatural Distortions he talks of , where did he see them among the Quakers ? We know not ; unless some have been taken therewith , in some Convulsion-Fits ; which are common to some Persons among divers sorts of People ; or , when by the Power of our Lord Jesus Christ , some evil Spirit has been about to be cast out . 8. And how he can discern and judge all outward Quaking and Trembling , which he derides , to proceed from a being inwardly possess'd with the Devil ; and not from the influence and opperation of the Power of Christ , we cannot understand , unless contrary to his Opinion against Infalibility , he proves his Judgment and Discerning Infallible , and that even in the Tryal of Spirits ; wherein we cannot esteem him such a spiritual Man of Discerning , as judgeth all things . P. 34. Again from his dark Stories of Gilpin , Milner , Toldervy , &c. as in an high degree possess'd with the Devil . He farther infers , That there have not been among so many of all Mankind such a number ( a gross Lie ) as of these Quakers that have run quite Mad , for their Principle is little short of Madness . The Principles he presently mentions , p. 35. Is that of expecting Revelations , and of the Light within . But granting that some pretending to Divine Inspiration of the Holy Spirit , Revelations and Light within , and from thence Infallibility in Matters of Salvation to proceed , and yet some such have failed and run into Imagination and Delusion . Is this any good Argument against the Principle it self ? If not , this Opposer's Work is only to rake up and set forth Personal Failings , which can no ways destroy good Principles , from whence there have been many Revolters and Backsliders , both in the Days of the Prophets , Apostles and Ours ; and some because when they knew God , glorified him not as God , became vain in their Imaginations , and their foolish Hearts thereby darkned ; others begun in the Spirit , yet would end the Flesh. But where 's his Catalogue to prove a greater number of Quakers have run quite mad , than among so many of all Mankind ? Let him produce it if he can . Now 't is observable , That our Principle of Divine Inspiration , Light within , the Gift of the Holy Ghost , the Work and Ministry thereof , are plainly confest unto by this Author of The Snake in the Grass ; as That the Doctrin of the Church of England allows the same , namely , as constantly teaching that all saving Graces are wrought in our Hearts by the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost , and that this Inspiration is as necessary to our fructifying or bringing forth good Works , as the Influence of the Sun is to the Earth's bringing ing forth of her Fruits , p. 46 , 47. Further discovering , That they do not only Teach , but also Pray for , and Sing for God's holy Inspiration of the Holy Ghost , and plead for the necessity of Divine Inspiration , Light within , &c. from page 46 to page 53. And that according to their Homilies and Liturgy , p. 54 , 55 , 56. He also , instead of confuting the Principle , or proving us all Madmen that profess Divine Inspiration , tells us , What sort of Enthusiasm or Inspiration is allowed and own'd in the Church ; and that 't is full as much as any sober Quaker can mean by the Light within , and that it is made necessary to every good Work. And we are directed to it , to follow and be guided by it ; and are assured , that it will lead us to all Truth that is requisite and necessary for our eternal Salvation ; it is this that opens the Scriptures to us and our Vnderstandings , rightly to apprehend the true Sense and Meaning of them , and which inclines our Will to love , and duly to follow the divine Precepts therein contained . If any Quaker ( as I am confident all that are , in the least , sober-minded ) will say , That this is all they mean by their Light within ; then where is the difference ? Why do they break off and separate from our Communion upon the pretence of the Light within , wherein we agree with them ? pag. 55 , 56 , 57. Thus far , his Confession to the Principle , wherein he is more Ingenuous than in his bitter reproachful Language and foul Raillery against us , which he somewhat minceth , yet confesseth , He is forced to a little Raillery now and then . Second Part , pag. 12. The greater shame for him , thus to manifest himself an open Railer and Reviler about religious Controversies : But seeing he has so largely confess'd and vindicated the Church of England's allowing Preaching and Praying for the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost , and agreeing with the Quakers about the Light within , &c. how trifling and fruitless are his Attempts to vilifie and make them odious ? as Madmen , Possest with the Devil , Enthusiastick , Madness , &c. from the Personal Miscarriages of some Distracted or Whimsical , or Mad , or loose extravagant Persons . How many of his own Church have run mad ? How many Debauched and Wicked , both of the Clergy and others ? Would he take it well to have a large Catalogue , or Book , writ thereof , as the Cobler of Gloucester and others have done , to shew the Contempt of the Clergy , and then upbraid their whole Communion or Society , yea , and their Principles also , therewith ? Surely no , this he would deem very unjust . Then let him peruse his own Work , and better consider the Nature and Tendency thereof , together with the bitter Invectives therein , tending to raise a new Persecution ; which shews not a Christian Spirit or Charity in him or his Abettors , Apostates from us , or others , whose Help ( by divers of of his silly dirty Stories ) he appears to have had . A Catalogue of some of the great Mistakes , Abuses and Calumnies , in the Book sliled , The Snake in the Grass ; with brief Reflections thereupon . THat G. Fox's chief Principle was at first to direct Men to the inward Anointing , and that they needed no Man to teach them , but as the Anointing teacheth them , and that God is come to Teach his People himself ; but that he would not trust to this , for that he went about Teaching outwardly , and has erected an outward Church-Discipline and Authority to over-rule the Anointing , &c. They keep up outward Ministry and Preaching , which are more inconsistant with their Principle of reducing all to the Inward , and waiting for the Lord in silence within . Reflection . Here are 3 Falshoods contained in this Calumnious Charge . As 1. That G. F. would not trust to this Anointing . 2. Church-Discipline to over-rule the same . 3. Keeping up an outward Ministry and Preaching as inconsistant therewith . These are both false and apparent Perversions , reflecting also upon the Holy Apostles and their Ministry , preaching and writing Epistles and Instructions to the Churches , relating to both Church Order and Discipline , and yet directed and referred them to the same Divine Unction ( received from the Holy One ) the Holy Spirit , the Word of Faith and Grace of God within them . Therefore Ministry and Instructions to good Order and Discipline , were not to over-rule the inward Anointing , but ( as proceeding from the same ) to help strengthen and confirm them in it ; for if the Doctrin of the Church of England be so much for the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost , the Light within , &c. as he confessed , what then is their Ministry and Discipline to over-rule the same ? How will he reconcile himself to his condemning us in this Case ? Sn. p. 95 , 96. These two Madmen , Fox and Muggleton , both their Inspirations came from the same Author , the Father of Lies , who in that Hurricane of Schism and Rebellion , got an Act of Parliament for Tolleration and Liberty of Conscience to sow his Tares at Noon-day . Ref. The first part is a gross Calumny against G. F. whose divine Inspiration and found Testimony , given him of God , was evident against Muggleton's dark Spirit , presumptuous and blasphemious Doctrine 2. The latter part is a bold Calumny and Reflection upon the Parliament , and Act thereof , for Tolleration and Liberty of Conscience , as if the Devil , the Father of Lies , did influence the Parliament to make the said Act , which is a most presumptuous and audacious Aspersion . We know no other Act of Parliament obtained for Tolleration and Liberty of Conscience , but the Act of Exemption , made in the First Year of King William and Queen Mary ; and which was made for no such end , as for the Devil to sow his Tares , but for the Ease and Liberty of tender Consciences , from the Devil 's envious Work of Persecution , God having so order'd it , that the Seed of Christ's Kingdom , his Word and Gospel , may have Liberty , and be sown the more plentifully : But it appears our present Liberty is greatly envied , by this persecuting Author , and such scandalous Libellers . Sn. p. 104. That one of the Orders given forth by their Yearly Meeting , 1693. commands , That none shall carry Guns in their Ships ▪ Ref. This also is untrue : We know no such Commands given forth by our Yearly Meeting , but only a tender Caution to such that have acted contrary to their former Principle and Practice , to the injuring of their own Souls , and endangering their own and other Lives , &c. As touching some Ship-masters , esteemed Quakers , carrying Guns in their Ships mentioned in the said Meeting , 1693. our Christian Principle and Innocency is cleared , in the Epistle , in these Words , viz. Dear Friends , YOU very well know our Christian Principle and Profession in this Matter , both with respect to God and Caesar , and that because we are Subjects of Christ's Kingdom , which is not of this World , we cannot Fight , John 18. 36. yet being Subjects of Caesar's Kingdom , we pay our Taxes , Tribute , &c. according to the Example of Christ and his Holy Apostles relating to Christ's Kingdom and Caesar's , wherein we are careful not to offend , Mat. 17. 27. & 22. 20 , Rom. 13. 6 , 7. being also very glad and much satisfied in the many Testimonies given at the Meeting of our Friend's Innocency , quiet and peaceable Behaviour , under the outward Government , as becomes our Christian Principle and Profession . Sn. p. 115. Whatever a Quaker dictates , if it were to depose the King and set up their Vniversal Monarch , and to assert , by Arms , their own Heirship to the uttermost parts of the Earth , if they should abrogate any or all of our Laws , or any thing else whatever their Arbitrary Enthusiastical Spirit shall suggest to them , this must not be looked upon as any thing that is human , but as the very Words of God , &c. Ref. These are very bitter , invidious and calumnious Suggestions , and cruel Jealousies of a high Nature , as if this poor Libeller eagerly thirsted after our Blood : But the Matters thus suggested are so gross , that we need say little to them , but commit our innocent Cause to him that judgeth righteously , and bless his Name we converse with no such Spirit as would suggest or excite to any such pernicious , wicked hurtful or treasonable Things or Actions as here suggested against us , as our peaceable Conversation , ever since we were a People , hath demonstrated . Sn. p. 122. That in the Answer to F. Bugg's Impeachment , they ( i.e. the Quakers ) would persuade us , That all they have said against the Payment of Tithes , was only meant by them to the Popish Clergy , but by no means against the Right of the Church of England to their Tythes , &c. Ref. This is partially and wrongfully stated . Our Answer to F. Bugg plainly shews our conscientious Dissatisfaction with Tithes in general , and the forcing thereof now in this Gospel-day by any Clergy whatsoever , as not consistent with the practice of Christ's . Ministers or Testimony of divers Martyrs , who not only testified against the Popish Clergy forcing the Payment of Tithes , but also against Tithes ( and Temporalities ) themselves , and against the secular Power 's imposing or forcing them , Tithes being abolished under the New Covenant and by Christ's new Law. See William Thorp's Discourse , at large , on this Subject , 1. vol. of Martyrs , fol. 700 , 708. in King Henry IV. his Reign , Old Impression . Sn. p. 133. Their Principles destructive to all Government , &c. Ref. This is a general , very gross and invidious Aspersion . Our Principles are Christian and peaceable , and our Conversation among Men and toward the Civil Government , is and hath been a manifest Indication thereof , as well as our publick and frequent Testimonies and Prayers to Almighty God for Rulers and People ; and when any of us have testified against the abuse of Government and corruption of Governors , and against them for the same , this could not be destructive of any just or good Government . Sn. Highly asserting Tithe , or the Tenth part to be of divine Right , viz. As God's Tribute , God's Tithe due to the Evangelical Priesthood , to that Order of Priesthood after the Order of Melchisedeck , as a Tribute to God , a part of God's Worship peculiar to God , Tithes of God , and to confirm his Jure Divino Claim of Tithes , p. 175 , 176. That several Kings of England , who had then the sole Right and Property in all the Lands of England , have anew dedicated by particular Vows , as Jacob , ( Gen. 28. 22. ) all the whole Tithes of the Lands of England to God ; and signed Charters and Grants of the same tendered upon their Knees at the Altar of God , in presence , and with the approbation of the Lords and Estates of the Land , with heavy Curses and Imprecations upon themselves , or any of their Successors , who should recal the same or incroach in any part upon the said Tithe of God , and upon all who should receive such Grants from them or assist them in such Sacriledge , and the same have been confirmed by several Acts of Parliament . And he further adds , That to maintain the Sacrilegious Impropriations which the Pope had made of the Secular Clergy to indow their Monasteries , which Henry VIII . instead of restoring , did yet more sacrilegiously impropriate to the Laity , p. 164 , 165 , 169 , 170 , 171 , 173 , 175 , 176 , 177 , to p. 189. Ref. Pray observe the nature and import of these Passages , as they are thus truly collected ; how like a dutiful Son of the Mother Church ( as that of Rome is called ) this Man looks ? How strenuously he argues for the divine Right of Tithes , and how he would renew the sense of the heavy Curses of Popish Kings denounced upon themselves or any of their Successors , who should either recal the same or incroach , in any part , upon the Tithes , and upon all Assisters in such Sacriledge ( as he calls it ? ) But it seems King Henry VIII . would not be bound by any of the said Curses , no more than by the Pope's Supremacy . I think the Man has out-done the Rhemists and other Jesuits and Popish Priests in these Aggravations , to fasten the said Curses not only on Henry VIII . but upon all the Impropriators and Receivers of such Grants , as aforesaid ; though the Rhemists and he agree as to Tithes , being Jure Divino , as in their Annotations on Heb 7. They say , That the Payment of Tithes is a natural Duty that Men owe to God in all Laws , and to be given to his Priests , in his behalf , for their Honour and Livelihood ; and that Jacob promised or vowed to pay them , Gen. 28. And that Abraham specially giving them to Melchisedeck , plainly thereby approveth them , or their equivalent to be due to Christ and the Priesthood of the New Testament , much more than either in the Law of Moses or in the Law of Nature , and for Tithes due to the Clergy of Christ's Church , &c. See now how exactly this Churchman and these Rhemists agree in this point of Tithe . But that the Reformed Protestants , and divers eminent Protestant Martyrs , were of the contrary Judgment concerning Tithes ; hear First , what Dr. Fulk saith in Answer and Opposition to the Rhemist recited Annotation on Heb 7. viz. The Payment of Tithes as it was a Ceremonial Duty is abrogated , with other Ceremonies , by the Death of Christ ; but as it is a necessary Maintenance and Livelihood to them that serve in the Church , it may be retained , or any other Stipend appointed that may be sufficient for their Maintenance , be it more or less than the Tenth part . But that there is any sacrificing Priesthood to whom it is due in the New Testament , the old Payment of Tithes doth not prove ; neither did Christ himself , our High-Priest , ever make claim unto them ; nor his Apostles the Ministers of the Church ; but only a sufficient Living by the Gospel , to be allowed of their temporal Goods , to whom they ministred spiritual Goods , 1 Cor. 9. 14. Gal. 6. 6. From all which 't is evident , First , That the Protestants in those Days did not esteem Tithes of divine Right for Gospel Ministers , but abrogated by the Death of Christ , but indefinitely allowed a sufficient Maintenance for them , without restricting it to the Tenth . Secondly , Divers eminent Martyrs and others , who were both Persons of Piety and good Fame , are more full and plain in this Point against Tithes in the Gospel-day and times ; as John Wickliff , VVilliam Swinderby , VValter Brute , VVilliam Thorp , the Bohemians , with other Christians mentioned in the Book of Martyrs , did bear Testimony against Tithes and compell'd Maintenance by the civil Authority . This of their opposing Tithes was made a principal Article against them by the Popish Bishops and Clergy ; as more largely and particularly appears in the 1st vol. of Martyrs , in the Reigns of Richard II. Henry IV. and Henry V. And tho' with those Christian Martyrs and first reformed Protestants , we are persuaded , That Jesus Christ by his Suffering and Death hath abrogated Tithes , and the Law that required them according to Heb. 7. and that his Ministry ought to be free and without any forced Maintenance , yet 't is not our Business now strictly to dispute the Merits of that Case of Tithes , being fully opened by other Hands ; as Fra. Howgill in his Great Case of Tithes , and Tho. Ellwood in his Foundation of Tithes shaken , and R. Richardson's Testimony against Tithing among Christians ; ( with divers others ) to which we refer the Reader . And to shew how much this Adversary resembles a Son of the old pretended Mother Church , in his Contempt and Scorn against some of the Protestant Reformers , particularly against VVilliam Thorp , p. 169. for esteeming their Priests ( or Gospel Ministers ) not to come of the Lineage of Levi , but of Judah ; which can intend no other , but as they come of Christ who came of the Tribe of Judah , and not of Levi ; for this William Thorp is derided , as shewing what a doughty Clerk he was : And with Fulsom Stuff , p. 170. our Adversaries saying , Who told Thorp , or the Quakers , that our Priests came of the Lineage of Judah ? Are they Jews ? What fulsom Stuff is this ? ( quoth he ) . No doubt William Thorp meant the true Priesthood of Christ descended spiritually of his Line , and not naturally : And does not Jo. Fox call him A valiant Warrier under the triumphant Banner of Christ ; and commend him , as that the Might , Spirit and Grace of God , to a marvel , appeared in him . But this Popish Agent , ironically renders him a doughty Clerk , a fulsom Writer . What fulsom , popish Stuff is this ? Sn. p. 194. Traiterous Principles and Actions charged against the Quakers from 1650 , to 1660. as also Blasphemies and Treasons , Blasphemers and Traitors , p. 196 , 197 , 198. Ref. We need but answer these with Negation and Detestation , as being most foul Raileries proceeding from a Spirit of Persecution and deadly Malice , which the righteous Lord will rebuke ; but has he not heard of some of the Clergy , who have lately absolved Persons condemned of High Treason ? His quoting Bugg's Authority for these black Charges , p. 199. shews his partial Credulity in not taking notice of our Answers to him . As also our Answer to John Pennyman on the like Passages , Entituled , Christ's Lambs defended from Satan's Rage . Sn. p. 199. He chargeth G. Fox and E. Burrough , with Traiterous abetting of Oliver and the Rump . Ref. This is very harsh and deny'd . He forgets how the then Clergy abetted Oliver , and highly applauded him and his Son Richard , as their Moses and Joshua , and shews as little regard to the Act of Indemnity in these Recriminations , if they were true . Sn. Yet in p. 204 , 205 , 206 , 207. 208. he not only gives a Recital of a cruel and bitter Petition and Charge against divers of the People called Quakers , directed To the Right Honourable the Council of State , as they were called by several of the Priests and others in Lancashire , and printed in 1653. but also takes it for granted that the Persons charged , were guilty of every part of the Charge , p. 209. Observe . Thus he has sided with the Persecutors of those Times , who abetted and sheltered under that Government , which no doubt he now esteems not Loyal ; and not only so , but he appears very partial and credulous of their most bitter and malicious Charges , which were then designed to stir up severe Persecution . Sn. One of the Charges , p. 202 , 203 , 205 , 206. That G. Fox professed and avowed , That he was equal with God. Another , That he professed himself to be the Eternal Judge of the World. Ref. Observe here the Man 's partial Credulity and Injustice again , in taking for granted what persecuting Adversaries have long since unjustly suggested against a conscientious Sufferer , without hearing his Defence ; where the said G. F. being charged by his Persecutors with professing himself to be equal with God , positively denies the Charge as not so spoken , as that G. F. was equal with God ; but confessed , That the Father and the Son are one ; and that Christ and the Holy Spirit are equal with God ; Saul's Errand , p. 5 , 6. And so to Christ Jesus , both as he was of the Seed of Abraham , and also as he was equal and one with the Father : And do not these confess both the Humanity and Divinity of Jesus Christ ? Vid. Just Inquiry , p. 12. Sn. p. 212. That the Quakere take the Name of God and Christ to themselves , because of God's supposed dwelling in them . And p. 213. Their pretence to Perfection , equal even to the Perfection of God himself , and that they all pretend to it . Ref. We the Quakers ( so called ) positively deny all such presumption and these Charges thereof in their several Parts : Pray when and where did ever the People , called Quakers , call themselves by those Names of God and Christ , either because of God's Indwelling or for any other cause ? We deny the Charge as both blasphemous and confused : God's indwelling in his People cannot render them God. And though we do sincerely believe and own a perfection of a deliverance from Sin , and of Sanctification and Holiness , as obtained and wrought by Jesus Christ , for and in true Believers in this Life , yet we cannot pretend to any such equality of Perfection as that of God himself , which in Wisdom and Power , &c. is infinite ; seeing we are Men , and not God ; finite Creatures , and not the Creator . Therefore 't is a great and gross Lie to say of the Quakers , They all pretend to such Perfection and Equality . As it was also likewise answered in the said Just Inquiry into the Libeller's Abuse , as followeth , p. 12. It 's therefore a gross Slander implied against the Quakers , that 't is their Boasting , Doctrin or Principle , that they , or any of them , are equal with God , because they partake of his Spirit that raised Jesus from the Dead ( and of the divine Nature and Image ) they pretend to no such Equality or Principle , neither doth G. F. but the contrary he denies it of himself , or any other Creature , as that any Creature should be equal with the Creator ; as in his Great Mystery , fol. 127. and we abhor any such Boasting . Sn. p. 216 , 217. That most of all are they inraged against G. Keith , for Preaching up the necessity of a Christ without ; and that the Light within is not sufficient to Salvation , without something else ; that is , Christ Jesus without us , suffering and dying outwardly for us . Ref. 1. The first part is not true : We are not offended at G. K.'s preaching Christ , or his Suffering and Dying without us , truly considered . But 2. at his undervaluing the Light within , as not sufficient to Salvation , or not sufficient without something else ; seeing G. K. confesseth , That the Light within , in a true sense , is God and Christ , the eternal and essential Word , as in his Antichrists and Sadducees , p. 23. Surely Christ within and Christ without , are not two Christ's ; Christ without is not another Christ than Christ within , tho' his being without and within are in different manners . By the Light within being sufficient to Salvation , or to bring Salvation , we mean able to save , as the ingrafted Word is able to save the Soul , yea , even where the Kingdom of Heaven is compared to a little Leaven which leavens the whole , it bespeaks its Vertue and Efficacy , surely then God and Christ , the eternal and essential Word , is all-sufficient and able to save Man from Sin , Wrath and Damnation ; nevertheless God hath respect to Christ Jesus his Mediation , Suffering and Dying for us , in his so saving us ; but that God and Christ the eternal Word of God within ( who cannot be divided ) are absolutely sufficient and able actually to save and deliver Men from Sin and the Wrath to come , ( and so do ) ought not to be questioned ; we being reconciled by the Death of Christ , are saved by his Life . The Light and Life of Christ within cannot be without Christ , no more than the Light of the Sun can be without the Sun , or a Stream without a Fountain ; the Light and Life of Christ within us , hath livingly made us Partakers of the Fruit and Benefit of his Suffering , Death and Resurrection without us ; and as much has been asserted of the Light within , and sufficiently thereof , by G. K. as any of us , in his former Books . How he is shaken and varied in this and some other Points , we may refer to his Vniversal Grace and Immediate Revelation , and other Books ; as also , to the Remarks made on them , and his latter Books by Tho. Ellwood , John Penington , and the Moderate Church-man . Sn. p. 218 , 219. That Christ's making an outward attonement and satisfaction for Sin , by an outward shedding of outward Blood , they ( i. e. the Quakers ) turn all this to a meer Allegory , tending only to an inward Christ , that is , their Light within , to spiritual Blood shed inwardly in their Hearts . Ref. 1. We are injuriously and wrongfully accused in this Charge : We do not turn Christ's outward Suffering , Sacrifice , Blood or Attonement made for Sin thereby , into a meer Allegory , as if there had been no such thing in reality both outwardly and literally ; this is far remote from our Intentions , thus to allegorize away all these to the Inward , as if no Christ had outwardly been or suffered for Mankind ; 't was never our Opinion . 2. Yet deny not but it has been , and still is our sincere Belief and Persuasion ( as well as our Experience in measure ) that all Christ's Sufferings and Sacrifice , his Cross , his Blood and Water shed without , had a misterious and allegorical Meaning and interpretation ( as well as a literal ) in them , who are crucified with him , and really washed from their Sins in his Blood , and there is his spiritual Blood and Water as well as the outward ; for all that is spoken of the Blood of Christ in Scripture , is not to be taken only in a literal sense . Sn. p. 219 , 220. That this inward Christ they make to be the Archi-Type of which that Man Christ Jesus was but the Type , Figure , &c. Ref. 'T is a new Notion imposed upon us , that we make Christ as inward the Archi-Tipe , chief or principal Type , for Christ who is not divided , is the substance and end of all Tipes and Figures , and therefore 't is not true in it self , nor of us , That the Man Christ Jesus was but the Type or Figure ; for it hath pleased the Father , that all fulness should dwell in him , which Tipes , Figures and Shadows , are far short of . Sn. p. 220 , 221. That this Doctrin ( which he charges against the Quakers ) makes no more of Christ Jesus than a good Example ; as a Man who had a great measure of the true Christ , and that the Body of that Man Christ Jesus he has now thrown off , and is no more a Man. Thus , saith he , has the Devil in the Quakers , totally destroyed Christ's Humanity , as in the Socinians he has taken away his Divinity . Ref. Here are five notorious Falshoods contained in this Charge against the Quakers : In opposition to which we say our Belief and Doctrin is , That Christ Iesus was and is more than a good Example , he was also a most acceptable Sacrifice and Saviour , in whom we have Life and Salvation , through Faith in him , his Name and Power . 2. He received the Spirit , not by measure but in fulness , and that he is the true and very Christ of God. 3. That the Man Christ Jesus has not thrown off his own particular Body , for 't is a most glorious Body . 4. And Christ himself a most glorious heavenly Man in Soul and Body . 5. The Devil is a great Enemy to all faithful Quakers , and hath no place in them , by the Power of Christ they have overcome that wicked one , and he cannot destroy Christ's Humanity or Manhood , 't is blasphemous to affirm it ; tho' he persecute the Seed of the Woman and bruise his Heel , this Seed shall bruise his Head , and hath done it , and will destroy the Devil and his Works , from having any Power or Dominion , where Christ , the promised Seed , is truly received and reigns . Sn. p. 222. That they make themselves equal to Christ Jesus ( yea ) to be Christ , preferring of themselves before him , p. 224. Ref. These gross Lies and blasphemous Calumnies are utterly denied , being also refuted before : We have abundance of such Stuff reiterated in the windings and turnings of this Snake in the Grass . Sn. p. 239. That the Quakers will not allow Christ to be the promised Seed , or that he was more a Man in the Body of Jesus , than in the Body of any other Man. Ref. These are gross and notorious Falshoods still : We ever believed the promised Messiah , the Christ of God , to be the promised Seed , which by the Power of God should bruise the Serpent's Head ; and that he was true and perfect Man in the Body which he took upon him ( which was the Body of Jesus who was born of the Virgin Mary ) as he was and is a quickning Spirit in other Men , especially in true Believers . Sn. p. 239. He confesseth the Influence and Inspiration of his blessed Spirit is the ONLY true saving Light within us , but not the Seed ; and Christ himself ( as the Quakers blasphemously dream ) only a Ray or Communication of his Light and Life to us . But p. 242. he speaks of Faith in Christ's outward Blood , by which ONLY there is Salvation . Ref. If the only true saving Light within us , be the Inspiratiou of the blessed Spirit and Communication of the Light and Life of Christ to us as is granted , tho' this as within be not Christ in his fulness as in himself , yet 't is as truly the Incorruptible Seed the Word , Christ our Life and Light ; as the Life of Christ is Christ , or as the Spirit of the Lord is the Lord ; as where the Spirit of the Lord is , there is liberty ; now the Lord is that Spirit : It is Christ gives us both Life , Light and Spirit , and Christ is our Life , Light and Salvation . But do not the Words only Salvation by Christ's outward Blood , exclude any other means of Salvation ? And then how is his Spirit the only true saving Light within us ? Tho' that Blood of Christ be of true value and esteem , as part of his Sacrifice and Price , it is his Spirit and Power which quickens and actually saves the Soul from Sin and Death . Sn. p. 245. He accuseth the Quakers with denying any other God or Christ but themselves . Ref. This is one of his most horrid and blasphemous Slanders , and solemnly by us denied with as utter detestation and abhorrence , as any of the rest of his most gross and absurd Calumnies . Sn. p. 251. That they expresly disown any other Christ than what is within them ; and that the Quakers do not believe that Christ has any other Body , or other Humanity , than that spiritual or allegorical Body which , they say , he has within them . Ref. 1. To the first part : We own not two Christ's ; the true Christ is but one Christ , and we own him , as he is both without us and within us ; tho' he is not wholly contained within us , yet he 's truly within us by his Spirit , Light and Life , and dwelling in our Hearts , by Faith ▪ What other Christ does this Man own , than him who is in true Believers ? 2. The latter part of his Charge is not true : We believe Christ has his spiritual glorious Body without us , like unto which we also believe our low Body shall be changed and fashioned . Sn. p. 254. That the Quakers , by a monstrous sort of Transubstantiation , think themselves to be the Christ. Ref. This is a monstrous Falshood and Forgery still to defame and odifie us , grounded on divers other false and partial Stories , and is before , in substance , answered . Sn. p. 255. That G. Keith , for his most Christian Doctrin of a Christ without , was condemned by their last Yearly Meeting . Re. This is a notoriously false Story again , as the two Accounts given of him , by two Yearly Meetings , may evince , having no such cause assigned in them , for our conditionally disowning him , but his unchristian Spirit and Behaviovr , as an Instrument of divisions and disturbance in the Churches of Christ , whereby he hath cut himself off , unless he repent . Sn. p. 262. Their spiriting away the Letter of the promised Seed , the Humanity of Christ , &c. Re. This Charge , with all the hard Consequences depending thereupon against us , are sincerely and utterly denied by us : As by the Letter of the promised Seed , he means the Scripture-History of the Man Christ ; where proves he that we spirit this away ? Our owning Christ in Spirit and as a quickning Spirit in us , was never intended , as we know , to deny his real Manhood , Mediation or Intercession without us , no more than the Apostle did . See 1 Cor. 15. 45 , 47. where the second Man , the Lord from Heaven , is also called a quickening Spirit . Sn. p. 263. He charges them with running into this Excess , of throwing off the Humanity of Christ , abusing the Scriptures by the contemptible Names of Beastly Ware , Dust , Death , &c. and calling the Holy Scriptures by the contemptible Names of Dust and Beastly Ware , p. 267. Re. These are still old repeated , shameful Calumnies against us . The first part is sufficiently answer'd before , and in many other Books , for our sincerely and plainly owning the blessed and most-glorious Man , Christ Jesus , according to plain Scripture . The latter part is some of F. Bugg's calumnious Abuses and Perversions , and clearly detected and refuted , in several Answers to his scurrilous Pamphlets ; and his Authority will go but a little way , what Credit soever 't is of with this obscure Adversary . 'T is far remote from us to own any such contemptible Names , as to call the Holy Scriptures Beastly Ware , &c. Tho' , perhaps , making a Trade upon Scripture , or Preaching for Hire or Mony , hath been so called by some or other . Sn. p. 268. That it is plain they never gave the Scriptures a good Word , but meerly for popularity , when forced to it . Re. He is a very unrighteous and false Judge in this also ; both our Consciences in the sight of God , and many of our Writings also , testifie the contrary ; that freely and without force , for the sake of that divine Inspiration from whence the Holy Scriptures proceeded ; and those blessed and holy Doctrins and Truths , contained in them , they are highly owned and esteemed by us . Sn. p. 285. Judge whether these be sound principled Men , that can turn , conform and transform to every change according to the Times , whether these be fit Men to teach People ? Re. These are still deceitful and envious Suggestions : Our manifold Sufferings in our Persons and Estates , for Conscience-sake , by Persecutions ( many whereof being the Temporizers of the Clergy ) do manifest the contrary to what 's here suggested against us , that we have not turned , changed nor conformed according to the Times , in point of Worship , Principle , Faith or Discipline ; for could we have so done , we might have escaped many deep Sufferings and great Losses which we have undergone , and then have been owned by such temporizing and persecuting Priests as now reproach us , when they cannot otherwise persecute us as formerly . Sn. p. 314. The Lord help them , and hear our Prayers for them , since they will not pray for themselves , &c. Re. We have no reason to believe that this Person can pray sincerely for us , seeing he is so full of Wrath and Envy that he notoriously belies us in his Prayer , in saying , That they ( i. e. the Quakers ) will not pray for themselves . He seemingly prays , but rails and reviles as it were with one Breath , both next before and after his Prayer . Sn. p. 319. That thus the Quakers say , That he ( Christ ) dwelt only in the Body of that Man Jesus , as in a Vail , but took not that Body into his own Person , so as to become Hypostatically united to it . Re. We are to seek herein , as not knowing where the Quakers say these things of Christ and his Body ( which he took and dwelt in ) as if he took it not into his own Person , so as to be really or substantially united to it ; we never understood that it did not properly belong to himself , but to some other Person . The Objection herein against us is not only some Perversion , but frivilous and impertinent : Tho' his Flesh is called the Vail , yet 't was that he owned as his own Body , being also called the Body of Jesus , which was not a fantastical but a real Body ; and he who is the entire Christ , the Man Jesus , is not divided in Body or Spirit . Nevertheless Christ the eternal Son of God was ( as to his divine Nature and spiritual Being ) as the spiritual Rock , before he took on him that Body that was prepared for him . Sn. p. 320. That the Quakers most expresly make Christ's outward Blood the Type and Figure of inward Blood , shed spiritually in their Hearts . Re. We know not what Author he has for this Charge . However , the Quakers really own Christ's outward Blood as a part of his precious and acceptable Sacrifice ; and we deny not but that Blood of his , as well as the Water that came out of his Side with it , had an allegorical and misterious signification ( as well as an outward and literal ) ev●● of the spiritual Blood and Water of Life , which Christ , our High Priest , sprinkleth , and really washeth our Hearts and Consciences withal ; which we hope no sensible Soul will say is an outward or literal Sprinkling or Washing , but an Inward and Spiritual . Sn. ibid. That the Quakers make Christ without but the History , and the Light within the Mistery or Substance , which the Christ without , as a History or Shadow of it , only pointed . Re. The Quakers do not so make Christ ; they make him no otherwise than the Father has appointed and made him to be . He is more than either the History or Shadow of the Light within ; he , as in himself , is the substance of all Shadows , and fulness of Light and Life , from whom we have received both Spirit , Light and Life . Pray how proves he that the Quakers call Christ without , but the History or Shadow of the Light within ? We want proof of this Point . Sn. p. 321. That this the Quakers have done , viz. set up other Scriptures against those received by the Church , beyond any that ever went before them . Re. We positively deny this Charge . What other Scripture have they so set up against those ? Let 's have plain Proof , for we are wholly ignorant of any such thing . Sn. p. 322. That none ever have so contemned and vilified the Holy Scriptures , as they have done . Re. This is still maliciously to reproach and odifie us , with the same old , reiterated Calumny . We know none that esteem and own the Holy Scriptures more than we , both in Faith and Practice , by the assistance of the Holy Spirit , from whence they came . Sn. p. 323. That a Man bringing a Bible into the Quaker's Meeting-House in Grace-Church-street , and reading part of a Chapter , the 14th of St. Luke ; it being the Bible so moved their Indignation , that one of the chief of them snatched the Bible out of his Hand , and thrust him along the Gallery down several Steps . Re. We know no such Indignation or Action shewn , by any of us , against the Bible , nor against any Person because thereof , neither do we believe it ; let the Author prove it if he can . We disown any such Indignation , either against the Bible or any Person , meerly because thereof : Possibly some publick Disturber might , by some or other present , be gently turned out of Doors ; not because of the Bible , but because of some offensive , turbulent Behaviour . Sn. p. 325. That upon pretence of the Light within , the Devil , the grand Deceiver , drew them away from reading of the Scriptures , &c. discovers their preference of their own Writings to the Holy Striptures . Re. We deny both these , as utterly false , scandalous and relative to many more Lies of the same kind in this Point . Sn. p. 327 , 328. That they give all the threatning Discouragements that can be , to deter any from reading of them . Re. This is as gross and notorious a Falshood as the rest . Sn. p. 330. I can ( saith the Opposer ) name those that now stand high among them , who did , before many Witnesses of the principal Quakers , not stick to say , That Paul was dark and ignorant , and that they saw beyond him . Re. We know none , either High or Low , among us , that ever so said of Paul ; therefore let him produce his many Witnesses to prove who those were that so said , that Paul was dark , &c. or otherwise for ever be ashamed of such odious Defamations . Sn. p. 335. That Simon Magus was the Father of the Quakers , Socinians , and all the rest of the Anti trinitarian Hereticks . Re. A gross Calumny against the Quakers , rendring them a Sorcerer's Children . But they deny both Simon Magus and all Sorcerers , and the Devil the Father of Lies , and all such as would persuade People to buy the Gift of God ( the Gospel ) for Mony. The Quakers are as opposite to such Simony , as Light is to Darkness . Sn. p. 338. That E. Burrough , pag. 47. determines clearly , That the Scriptures are not now of any Authority at all to us at this Day . Re. He perverts E. B.'s Words : We find not such a determination of his ; but where he speaks of that not being a Command from God to me , which he commands to another ; he intends this of special Commands that were to some , as to Baptize and Preach the Gospel , as he immediately explains it , and not of general Commands of Duty incumbent upon all , nor against the Authority of the Scriptures ; it being the Holy Spirit that makes them authoritative and binding , and enables Men to live accordingly who are led by the same Spirit . Sn. p. 342. That G. Whitehead in his serious Apology , p. 49. prefers not only their Writings , but their Ex tempore Preachments , and even all whatsoever they speak , upon any Account , to the Holy Scriptures themselves . Re. He very perversly wrongs G. Whitehead in all these Expressions ; for there 's not a word of preferring our Writings to the Holy Scriptures , much less of all whatsoever we speak thereto ; but a preferring the Holy Spirit and its immediate Teaching in Man to the Letter of Scripture , and preaching in the true sense of the Spirit with divine Authority ( according as Christ did ) to the bare reading the Letter as the Pharisees did ; which was not at all to lessen the Authority of Holy Scripture . Sn. p. 343. To prove gross Contempts of Scripture daily found among them ( i. e. the Quakers ) he gives us another particular Instance of a Quaker-Servant that took the Bible , and in the open Day publickly burnt it against the Church in Bread-street , to shew her Zeal . Re. Upon a late Enquiry we understand , That there was such a Servant-Maid , who under some Discomposure and Temptation , attempted such an evil and mad Action ; but was severely rebuked and testified against by our Friends who came to understand that Attempt or Action , which we utterly abhor , and therefore not justly chargeable upon us as a People , any more than all the mad Actions of the People in Bedlam , who belong to the Church of England . Wherefore the great Envy and Injustice of this Defamer is very remarkable in this Passage , as 't is extended against the Quakers , to prove gross Contempts of Scripture daily found among them ; which is as bad as to say , They daily burn their Bibles . Oh sad and sordid Stuff ! Sn. p. 346. I assure thee , Reader , that there is no mixture of any personal Prejudice in this Vndertaking ; for I do freely own , that I have a real Kindness and good Wishes for every one of the Quakers , that I have hitherto been acquainted with , and I never received any sort of Disobligation from any of them in my whole Life . Re. 1. We have no reason to believe this Person has no personal Prejudice in this his reproachful Undertaking , being against a whole People , where every Person of their Society is concerned , and shamefully defamed by him , under as gross Terms and Characters as the Devil and Malice could invent , and produce , through a poor dissembling Hypocrite , as thus pretends such real Kindness and good Wishes for every one the Quakers of his Acquaintance , while at the same time he 's endeavouring to murther their Reputations , both as Men and Christians . 2. And yet he has received no sort of Wrong from any of them , to disoblige him , in his whole Life : More shame for him then , thus sordidly to abuse the whole People as he hath done . Sn. p. 348. As to the Nature of Christ , they can subscribe the whole Creed , and yet not mean one word of it , of a personal Christ existing now in Heaven in his own true human Nature , without all other Men , or that he is now any otherwise a Man than as existing in his Saints : But that they mean ALL they say of their own Light within , ONLY which they call a spiritual Christ , and shedding spiritual Blood , &c. within them . Re. Here are several Things very perversly and falsly insinuated in these Passages . 1. As if we did not believe the Man Christ Jesus to be now in Heaven without us ( as well as spiritually within us ) which is not true . 2. As if we did not own Christ Jesus to be intire and perfect Man in himself , or in his own proper Being or Existence without us , as well as he is by his Spirit in us ) which also is not true , for we really own him in both . And though Christ , being the spiritual Rock , and as he is the Word of God , the immortal Seed and a quickning Spirit , he is in us , and livingly felt and known in all true Believers , yet not to lessen his intire Existence , or limit him the Holy One , as if he were no where or otherwise in Being than within us . Such limitation we disown , as well as wholly to exclude Christ out of his Saints , as some have done under those unscriptural Expressions of a personal Christ existing in Heaven , wholly without us ; which Terms some of us have questioned chiefly because imposed by some to oppose the Light , Life and Spirit of Christ within , whereby we can only truly know the Lord Jesus Christ , to our eternal Salvation and Peace . 3. That Christ is truly spiritual and glorious , we confess and shall never deny ; and that he has spiritual Blood too , spiritual Water , Wine and spiritual Drink , to sanctifie , refresh and comfort our Souls , we must confess as that we daily experience ; as well as he had natural and outward Blood to offer and shed on the Cross for the sins of the World. Sn. p. 350. That the Quakers general Answer to the seven Queries of the 15th of May , 1695. was a Trick and Deceit of theirs , to hide and cover their monstrous Heresies . Re. This is a very severe and high Charge , ( especially from one pretending real Kindness for us ) and as false as any of the rest of his Railery against us . But what Proof is offered of these monstrous Heresies , or covering them ? viz. Sn. They tell of Christ born of the Virgin Mary , who suffered under Pontius Pilate , &c. but they keep off the whole stress of the Queries , viz. Whether they believe in such a Christ , as without them ? And that he is now this day a Man without all other Men ? No , not a word of this ; this pinches too close : And I think this a full Confession of their Heresie . Re. Our Adversary appears very much out here : For suppose we did not answer expresly in all the Terms of the said Queries , being indirect and confusedly stated , seeing we gave a scriptural , intire substantial and comprehensive Answer ( which he is not able to confute ) : This could not amount to any confession of Heresie on our parts , neither does his thinking so prove any such thing . He judges with very dark and evil Thoughts in this Matter . Where did we ever say , That Christ being born of the Virgin Mary , and suffering under Pilate , were not without us ? Or , that Christ is not a Man , without all other Men , as well as spiritually in them ? We are to seek for such a Confession by us , for we know none such ; but the contrary , we are bound to believe in Christ intirely in all respects as he is ; both as he is within us , and as he is without us ; both as he is God , and as he is Man , according to Holy Scripture-Testimony of him ; and 't is not uncharitable or envious thinking the contrary of us , that can be any valid Argument to convict us to the contrary , or of any Heresies whatsoever . Sn. p. 351. Out of some of their ( i. e. the Quakers ) Books , George Keith has collected their true and genuine Answers to each of the said Queries , &c. under this HOLY Title , Gross Error and Hypocrisie detected , &c. Re. The first part is false : For G. K. did partially and perversly collect divers Passages , which could be no proper nor direct Answers to those Queries , nor so intended , nor by us adapted to any such Queries ; therefore the greater Abuse in him , to collect and place them for Answers thereto . 2. His Title and Charge of Gross Error and Hypocrisie , is blasphemously termed HOLY , for 't is altogether Unholy , as well as Malicious , and G. Keith is accountable to the just God for scandalizing and defaming us , not only with Gross Error , but Hypocrisie too . The first intends those Books of ours , quoted by him ; in all which there 's Matter sufficient to clear us from his Aspersions , as Thomas Ellwood ( and John Pennington also ) have well observed , in divers Answers to him , together with G. Keith's own former Vindications of us ( as a People ) and our Principles . The latter ( i. e. Hypocrisie ) we may suppose must intend our Answer given to the said 7 Queries ; wherein ( as in divers other things ) G. K. hath foully belied us , contrary to our own Consciences , which are clear in the sight ●f God from Hypocrisie in this Matter , as well as in other things : And seeing G. K.'s Authority seems to be of some value with the obscure Author of The Snake in the Grass , he and his Brethren ( of the Church of England ) may take G. K. for their Champion , and see what they can make of him , for he shews ▪ himself now no Quaker , but more near to them ; and where he 'll yet center or settle , in what Society or Communion , is a great Question . Or rather whether he does not aim at setting up for himself as Sect-master , if he can draw some sort of People to admire him in his Notions and reproaching the Quakers ( contrary to his former manifold Vindications of them and their Principles ) after above 30 Years Conversation and kind Treatment among them . The Second Part. Here follows a Catalogue of some of the great Mistakes , notorious Abuses and Calumnies , in the Second Part of the said Book , stiled , The Snake in the Grass ; after the Preface , which is bigger than the Book it self . THE Controversie with the Quaker-Dissenters has not been pursued by the Church of England , with the like Zeal and Pains as those against the Presbyterians , Independents , and other Dissenters , because the Quakers were not so considerable either for their Learning , or for their Influence upon the publick Revolutions , which the others caused both in Church and State. But their numbers ( whether increased by their being so neglected ) are now really formidable , I mean for the many Souls seduced by them : they not only swarm over these Nations , but they stock our Plantations abroad . Re. Tho' the first part of this Complaint carries no small Reflection upon the Presbyterians and Independents , &c. rendring them greatly obnoxious in the Eye of the Government , as not only formidable but dangerous ( which is most proper for them to answer ) 't is not truly stated as to the Quakers : For the Church of England , in the two late King's Reigns , has pursued them with more Zeal and Pains than any other Dissenters , both to stop their Growth and to root them out also ; tho' not by rationally controverting Matters in difference , but by such extream and severe Persecutions , as hard Imprisonments , Banishments , Spoil of Goods , &c. as no other People of Dissenters have so generally suffered , nor to such a degree , because they did not stand in a publick Testimony , in the Heat of the Day , as the People called Quakers have . So that 't is not through the said Churches neglect , or want of taking Pains to pursue the Quakers , that they are so multiplied and increased ; but rather , as the first and chief cause of their Increase was God's Power and divine Providence . A secondary Cause was their great Oppressions and Persecutions , of which Israel's Oppression and Increase , when in Egypt , in some sense and degree was figurative , or resembling ( even of the true Churches Sufferings ) when the more they were oppressed , the more they multiplied and grew . Sn. p. 4. I find them , ( scoffingly telling of the Rabbies of the Quakers ) to inherit the Subtilty , as well as Heresie , of the Arians and Socinians , who were the most subtil and hardest to be detected of any of the Christian Hereticks ; and the Quakers do defend themselves with the same distinctions , and even add to their Arts. Re. This Adversary is very much out , and maliciously calumnious in this his charging the Heresie of the Arians , as well as Socinians , upon the Ministers among the Quakers : For what was the Heresie of Arius ? Was it not that he held That the Son of God had his beginning of nothing ? That there was a time when he was not ; That he had a beginning of Essence ; That he had this Essence of nothing ; That the Son of God was of free Will inclined to Virtue and Vice ; That he was a Creature , and made neither like unto the Father in Substance , neither the true Word of the Father by Nature , neither his true Wisdom ; and that the Word of God was not from Everlasting , &c. These Heresies were charg'd upon Arius and his Complices , in the Sy●odical Epistle of the Council of Nice and Bishop of Alexandria , lib. 1. cap. 3. Socr. Scol . p. 215 , 216. & p. 225. ch . 6. Now we challenge this obscure Adversary to prove , where ever the Quakers , or their Ministers , held these blasphemous and atheistical Notions ? Nay , 't is manifest they hold the quite contrary both to Arius and Socinus , for the Divinity of the Son of God , the Eternal Word , as many of their Writings testifie ; and therefore he is a gross Lyar who charges us with them ; and highly guilty of Folly and Self-contradiction also , in rendring such mad Folks ( as he deems us ) so very subtil in Distinctions and Arts. Sn. p. 5. Many of them have really gone off from the height of Blasphemy and Madness which was professed among them at their first setting up , in the Year , 1650. and so continued till after the Year of the Restoration , Anno 1660. Re. We utterly deny this Charge again as a foul Scandal , That many of us professed the height of Blasphemy and Madness , or that any in Society with us have so done . The Man shamefully abuseth the Readers , by imposing such lying , defaming Stories upon them . Sn. p. 10 , 11. Divers Comparisons made between L. Muggleton and the Quakers , as denying all Church-Authority , making a dead Letter of the Holy Scriptures , and resolving all into their own private Spirit , &c. That these are Twin-Enthusiasts , both born in the Year , 1650. Re. His Comparisons herein are unjust , and Accusations false . 1. We never owned nor had Society with Muggleton , but always bore our Testimony against his dark , blasphemous Conceits . 2. The spiritual Authority of the true Church , we always own and esteem . 3. The Holy Scriptures ( i. e. the Holy Doctrin of the Gospel ) we do not make nor call a dead Letter . We distinguish between the dead Letter and the living Doctrin ; and follow not our private Spirits for the understanding thereof , but the Spirit of God , the Inspiration of the Almighty , which giveth the true understanding . Sn. p. 12. I desire , before I go farther , to obviate a Prejudice which some Readers may take as a little Railery , I am forced to use now and then , which they may think not becoming the Subject in Hand . Re. His said Book of Four Shillings Price , has more than a little Railery in 't ; for 't is stuft with abundance of as shameful Railery , Lies and Slanders , as ever we met withal : But who , or what has forced him to be such a Railer ? Not the Spirit of Christ , not a Christian Spirit to be sure : If he had apprehended us such mad Men and silly ridiculous Fools , as he has represented us , he should rather pity us , than bend his Wits to rail and scoff at us . Sn. p. 13. Intending chiefly to insist upon some of their more material and monstrous Heresies ; ( thus against the Quakers . ) Re. This Charge looks big , and seems to make a great Noise ; but as 't is levelled against us in general , 't is as false as the rest . As concerning the Government his Authority is as invalid ; which is , he only refers us to the Quakers Vnmask'd , printed 1691. What great Authority is this ? but one of F. Bugg's abusive Pamphlets , which is fully answer'd , and his Abuses detected over and over ; which this partial Adversary takes no notice of . That some of these called Quakers , were at first Common-wealth's Men , or for a Common-wealth , and afterward for a Monarchy , when it pleased God by his over-ruling Power and Providence to cause such alterations . We see no monstrous Heresie herein , any more than was in Samuel . See 1 Sam. 8. 5 , 6. ch . 10. 1. That the Quakers are against their being concerned in Fighting , and destroying Men's Lives ; as believing , that 't is not in Christ's mediatory Kingdoms ; and yet grant , that Wars and Fighting are a Judgment from God in the Kingdom of this World. What Heresie or Fallibility is in this , pray ? This is the true state of the Difference , however aggravated and perverted by this Adversary and his Author . Sn. Sect. 3. p. 17 , 18. Anno 1650 and 1654. Then it was that Rome was reaping a plentiful Harvest , which they had long been sowing , by setting up , in that universal Toleration , multitudes of various Sects , on purpose to divide , and so confound their only substantial Adversary the Church of England . They dressed Enthusiasm in several Shapes and Forms of Presbyter , Anabaptist , Independent , Quaker , Muggleton , and along , &c. which differ only in degrees . Re. Here the Snake puts his Sting out against all Protestant-Dissenters ; and , as greatly envying their Liberties , makes a very ill Construction of their former Toleration : And no doubt their present Liberty does as ill please him . Ishmael like his Hand is against every Man , and no sort of Dissenters ( how conscientious soever ) can escape his Blow or Push : He makes Rome the Author , Patron and Planter of them all , both Presbyter , Anabaptist , Independent , Quakers , &c. how plainly soever they have approved themselves Protestants , averse to Popery , and as Dissenting-Protestants are tolerated ; it appears how greatly he envies their Liberties , and is displeased with the Government for granting the same . Oh rare Son of the Church ! Will nothing satisfie this Incendiary , but Persecution and Ruin to Dissenting-Protestants ? May not such his Work be very grateful to the Popish Interest ? What a cordial Friend then does he shew himself to the Protestants ? Sn. p. 19. This Doctrin of Enthusiasm came chiefly from the Church of Rome . Labadee , a Jesuit , set it up in Holland ; and Robert Barclay the Quaker , was tinctured in his younger Years , in the Scotch Convent at Paris ; and John Vaughton was a Roman Catholick , who is now a great Preacher among the Quakers in London ; and ( he adds in his Errata ) William Southby , a Preacher now among them in Pensilvania . Re. These this obscure Accuser brings as Instances to make good the Title of this Third Section , which is , That the Popish Emissaries first set up Quakerism in England ; which is an old lying Story , and his Instances as impertinent . And 1st , We deny that any Jesuit set it up in Holland , and are persuaded many of our Friends there can testifie the contrary . 2. Whatever the Educations of the said R. B. and J. V. were in their Youth , as to Religion , they were none of the first Promoters of Quakerism ( as he calls it ) in England , by many Years . 3. And suppose the One was tinctured , and the other was a Roman Catholick , this makes for us ; that was not since they were Quakers , but before they turned Quakers ; and then when they did , they turned from Papists and Popery in Testimony against it , and against human Traditions and Superstitions , and for the Holy Spirit 's Teaching and Worship of God in Spirit and Truth . Sn. p. 20. The Quaker-Infallibility was contrived on purpose to bring Men back to the Infallibility of the Church of Rome , by these Steps . First , the Infallibility was placed by G. Fox and all the Primitive Quakers , in every single Quaker . Re. These are envious and false Aspersions , to render us infamous , obnoxious and offensive . 1. We positively deny any such Contrivance , Design or Purpose . 2. We deny that G. F. and all the Primitive Quakers , place Infallibility in a single Person , like Papists , or in every single Quaker without distinction , but in the Spirit of Truth , which assures us in Matters of Faith and Salvation . The Man often sillily scoffs at the Quaker's Infallibility , but does not truly state their Principle in that Case . Sn. p. 38. in Sect 5. They ( i. e. the Quakers ) damn all the World to Hell ; all since the days of the Apostles , but themselves . Re. This is a great Untruth : We damn none to Hell ; 't is Men's own Wickedness ( in hating the Light ) which carries them to Hell. We believe there were many good Men , and saved since the Apostles days . Sn. p. 40. They pretend to a Perfection even equal with God. Re. We pretend so of Christ , not of our selves : We desire we may always be kept truly Humble and in true Fear , out of all Boasting and high Thoughts of our selves , that Christ may be magnified in us . Sn. p. 41 , 42. in Sect. 5. They give to themselves , and to one another , the most peculiar Titles of Christ ; as that of The Branch , and the Star , and the Son of God , which are attributed to George Fox , and which he takes to himself ; quoting New Rome Arraigned , p. 33 , 34. and The Quakers Vnmask'd , and New Rome Vnmask'd , referring the Reader to those Books of F. Bugg 's , which he has quoted upon the Margin , as he saith , p. 48. Re. These are F. Bugg's notorious refuted Lies , which this Adversary is so shamefully credulous of : We positively deny giving those peculiar Titles of Christ to our selves , or to one another ; and Bugg has been charged therewith , and cannot prove them . G. Fox is not so much as mentioned in that Epistle of E. Burroughs , out of which F. Bugg takes these Titles , the Branch , the Star , &c. which are peculiar to Christ. Sn. p. 51 , 53. Sect 6. That G. F.'s Great Mystery , p. 282. endeavours to prove , That the Quakers are perfect as God , not only in quality , but in equality , from Christ's words , Be ye perfect , even as your heavenly Father is perfect . Re. These are not G. F.'s Words of the Quakers that they are so ; his Words are here perverted : He refers to Christ's Words and the Apostles , and to that which is of God and from him , and mentions not the Quakers in the place . Sn. p. 52. Great Mystery , p. 248. again quoted , viz. All THAT have the Son and the Holy Ghost , have THAT which is equal in Power and Glory with the Father ; and this all the Quakers say they have . Re. That the Son and Holy Ghost are equal in Power with the Father , and that the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the Dead dwells in the Saints , we see not this to be such a monstrous Heresie . Are not the Son and Holy Ghost of the same Substance with the Father ? And have not the Assembly at Westminster , confessed as much as G. F. says ? Yet the Quakers do not say they have the Holy Ghost in fulness , but in measure . Sn. p. 53 , 54 , 55. Sect. 7. Of the Quakers making their Soul of the same Person and Substance with God ; quoting Great Myst. p. 247. & p. 90 , 91. & 273. Of Christ's dwelling in the Saints ; Of that which came out from the Creator ; Of the Soul that came out of him , &c. Re. 1. The Case herein is both mis-understood and mis-represented against the Quakers : They do not so make their Souls of the same Person and Substance with God. I know no such Expressions used by the Quakers . 2. There 's a mis-understanding also of G. F. in the Case about his questioning , Is not that a part of God which came out from God , and of his Being ? as God breathed into Man the Breath of Life , and he ( i. e. Man ) became a living Soul ; to which Words G. F. expresly refers . We always understood him to intend , That this Breath of Life , which made Man a living Soul , was that divine Breath , or Spirit of Life , which came out from God and of his own Being ; for otherwise how should Man thereby become a living Soul ? Which clearly distinguisheth the Creature Man to be that living Soul , that was so made by that Spirit , Breath and Life which proceeded from his Creator , and which some term the Soul of the Soul. So that the Soul of Man , abstractly considered , was as truly created as Man himself ; tho' that divine Inspiration , or Breath of Life , whereby the Soul had its Being , Life and Immortality , be Increated and of God himself ; for we ever distinguished between the Soul of Man , and that which saves it . Note , That his 2d , 4th , 8th & 9th Sections are not particularly pointed at , being in Substance comprehensively and sufficiently answered in divers Answers to the rest , and in our Just Enquiry the same things being often repeated in his Book ; as about Carnal Weapons ; Damning all the World ; the Soul ; and Immediate Revelation . Sn. p. 69. Sect. 10. As they place Infallibility in every single Quaker , so they confine it not to Matters of Faith , but extend it to all Persons and Things , to know all Men's Hearts and all Things in the World by their inward Light without , being told by any . Re. Here 's a great Mistake in these Accusations . 1. Such a personal Infallibility as to know all Persons , States and Things in the World , we pretend not to ; for that were for Man to pretend Omnisciency , which is only proper to Almighty God : The Man 's egregiously out in confounding Infallibility with Omnisciency . The Infallibility or Certainty own'd by us , originally is in the Spirit and Light of Truth given by Christ Jesus , and not consisting in Persons , their humane or natural Parts ; yet we must confess , to the Glory of God , that the Spirit of Truth , doth infallibly teach and lead them into all Truth , who truly obey it , and gives them certain knowledge in Matters of Faith and Salvation . Sn. p. 81. They turn and wind this Infallibility of theirs at such a rate , that no Man can ( I am sure I cannot ) know what they mean by it . Re. Where 's then the Blasphemy ? Here 's manifest Contradiction to what he hath said before , about extending the Quaker's Infallibility to all Persons and Things , and to know all Mens Hearts and all things in the World , &c. which is to pretend to Omnisciency , which is only proper to God who only is Omniscient . Silence had better become this occult Adversary's Ignorance , than to reproach or vilifie us about what he knows not . Sn p. 83 , 84. The Strength which God has given to our Bodies , is as sufficient to climb up to the Skies , as the Wisdom or Light which he has given to our Souls was sufficient , of it self , to have found out the redemption of lost Man , by the Incarnation and Satisfaction of Christ to God's Justice for our Sins ; or if found out , to have paid that Price , and to have accomplished that whole wonderful Oeconomy of our Salvation by our own Abilities ; and then he goes on thus confusedly ) so very insufficient is the Light within us , even tho' followed to the utmost by its own Strength to carry us to Heaven . Re. This is to deny any divine Wisdom , Light , Word or Power to be given to our Souls , as if they could live and immortally subsist without the divine Logos , or Word in them , which in Scripture is called , The Ingrafted Word which is able to save the Soul , and consequently to carry us to Heaven ; 't is therefore great Darkness to oppose the sufficiency of this Light , this Word or Christ within , or to oppose his Incarnation , Sufferings , Satisfaction , or our Redemption obtained by him , as our Mediator , to this his own inward Light , Power and Appearance ; for as truly as Christ Jesus , as our blessed Mediator , has obtained eternal Redemption and Salvation for us , so truly doth Christ Jesus , by his Light , Life and Power , make us Partakers of that Redemption and Salvation , and to know the Oeconomy , Law or Rule of his House and Family , as we obey him therein , that we being reconciled by his Death might be saved by his Life . The divine Logos , the Light or Spirit of Christ , is as able now to discover what Christ hath done and suffered for our Redemption , as it was to shew the Prophets his Sufferings , and the Glory that should follow . Sn. p. 84. And therefore the Quakers preaching up the sufficiency of the Light within ( as all of them but the Separatists do ) is not only highly derogatory to the satisfaction paid by Christ for our Sins , but it is blasphemous , in ascribing to Our Selves a Power sufficient to work out our own Salvation . Re. There are two gross Mistakes in these Passages . 1. The sufficiency we ascribe to Christ , his Light and Life within , is not any derogation to his Satisfaction , Attonement or Ransom given and paid by him ( without us ) for Sins and Sinners , no more than Christ's own exhorting Men To believe in the Light , that they might become Children of the Light ; or the Apostle's , to a receiving the ingrafted Word which was able to save the Souls , could be derogatory to his blessed intention and end in his Suffering and Sacrifice for Mankind ; but the contrary , Christ by his Light and Life within leads to know and experience the same , i. e. our effectual Cleansing and actual Deliverance from Sin and Satan , &c. which he has obtained for us and for Mankind , by his Sufferings and Mediation . 2. We never ascribed to our selves a Power sufficient to work out our own Salvation , that 's notoriously known to be expresly contrary to our professed Principle : We ascribe our sufficiency to be in Christ by his own Power , Grace and Light in us to work out our Salvation , it being by Grace , through Faith in Christ , that we are saved , not of our selves ; 't is the Gift of God , and without him we can do nothing . And this Heavenly Treasure , though we have it in our earthen Vessels , the excellency of the Power is of God and not of us . After his many Scoffs at our Doctrin of Infallibility , which he knows not what to make of , he has at length stumbl'd upon an Instance of those he esteems will be found to have the best Title to it , p. 85. where it is written , Prov. 16. 10. A divine Sentence is in the Lips of the King , and his Mouth transgresseth not in Judgment . We would ask him , If none are indued with a divine Sentence and unerring Judgment but Kings ? Or , if none are Saints and Partakers of the Spirit of Truth or divine Wisdom , but Kings ? What kind of Kings he means that are thus infallible , he does not distinguish ; sure they must be just and good Kings indued with divine Wisdom : But are none else so but Kings ? Do not all that truly fear God partake of the same Spirit and Wisdom ? Is God any respecter of Persons ? What does he think of those very Elect , whom Christ implies 't is impossible to deceive , Mat. 24. 24. Are they fallible or deceivable ? Or of them in whose Mouths was found no Guile ? Or of them who have put away all Guile , and all Malice , and all Lying , and all Hypocrisie , &c. 1 Pet. 2. 1. Are such led by an infallible Spirit or no ? But to proceed , he has some very scurrilous and abusive Flings at G. W. to prove him not led by an infallible Spirit of discerning or true Judgment , p. 87. He quotes G. W.'s Charitable Essay , in Answer to Fr. Bugg , p. 6. his objecting against G. F. That they ( the Quakers ) could discern who were Saints , and who Apostates , without speaking ever a Word . And says that he ( G. W. ) puts it off ingeniously thus , That they could discern it by their lofty Looks , wanton and scornful Eyes , envious and fallen Countenances , and so without speaking ever a Word , p. 87. And then , among divers other Scoffs and Flouts , goes on ; Is not this very hard Fishing for Infallibility ? Adding , Alas ! poor George , Is the infallible Quaker dwindled down to a meer Gypsie or paltry Fortune-teller , to nothing but a little Skill in Physiognomy ? Ah! George , what a blessed Spirit would'st thee have thought Satan , if thee hadst seen him when he was transform'd into an Angel of Light ? p. 88. 89. in Sect. 10. To all which it may be safely answer'd , This Scorner's Abuse and Perversion is herein very evident ; for that we do not place our Infallibility of discerning of Spirits , only upon those outward Signs in the Countenances of wicked Men or Women , as their lofty Looks , scornful Eyes , envious fallen Countenances ; though these were in part instanced , in Answer to the great wonderment made of knowing wicked Hearts when silent , to shew there are other outward Signs and Tokens to manifest them by , than their wicked Words or prophane Talk , and even such Signs as Scripture takes notice of . And seeing this Scorner has unjustly perverted and minced the Passage quoted , Char. Essay , p. 5 , 6. 't is meet to recite it more fully , for the Quakers having a Spirit given to them , beyond all the Fore-fathers in the Apostacy , &c. viz. That the very intent and meaning of G. F.'s Words herein , was not beyond all the Fore-fathers without exception , but beyond all in the Apostacy . And further ; and they can discern who are Saints and who are Devils , and who are Apostates , without speaking ever a word ; that is , they that be in the Power and Life of Truth ( as G. F. there saith ) can so discern between Saints and Devils ; and that 's possible , as 't is for humble Men to discern wicked Persons , even by their proud and lofty Looks , wanton and scornful Eyes , envious and fallen Countenances , the shew of whose Counteannces testifing against them : And more especially by the Gift of discerning of Spirits , given to some in the Church of Christ , Apostates and wicked Spirits are discernible from Saints ; and that a Spirit of Vnderstanding and Discerning is given among us , &c. concluding with the Saints Right of discerning by the Power and Life of Truth , between Saints and Devils . From all which , pray observe how plain it is that discerning of Spirits , which we assert , is principally placed on ( and springs from ) the Power and Life of Truth ( that is , from Christ ) and the Gift of discerning of Spirits given to some Members especially , ( and still is continued ) in the true Church ; and from which discerning , Satan cannot be hid , however he transform himself ; altho' proud and lofty Looks , wanton and scornful Eyes , envious and fallen Countenances , are rendred in Scripture as outward Signs or Marks of such wicked Hearts , which also the Gift and Spirit of discerning perceiveth ; and gives to see many times through such outward Mediums . And therefore the true discerning of Spirits , which we plead for , is neither dwindled down to a meer Gypsie nor paltry Fortune-teller , nor to nothing but a little Jugler's Skill in Physiognomy , as this scornful Adversary reflects . And to reprehend his Reproach and Blasphemy herein , and shew him that both God , and good Men divinely inspired , have also taken notice of such Signs , Marks and Tokens in wicked Men's Looks and Countenances , as before mentioned , Let him read and consider these places of Scripture , Gen. 4. 5 , 6. Psal. 10. 4. Isa. 3. 9 , 16. & 2. 11. & 5. 15. Psal. 131. 1. Prov. 30. 13. & 6. 17. & 21. 4. And he may see that both God Himself , and his Prophets and Servants , took notice of wicked Men's Countenances , proud and lofty Looks , and wanton Eyes , &c. and did not therefore deserve to be numbred among Gypsies and Juglers . Behold the Levity and Ignorance of this prophane Scoffer of the Spirit of discerning and Scripture ! Who further in 's scoffing Humour proceeds against G. W. notoriously to detect his Infallibility by Signs and Faces , as well as G. Fox 's without speaking ever a word ( as he pretends . ) His Story is about one Chr. Athinson 's miscarriage at Norwich , in the Year , 1655. from Richard Hubberthorn's writing , That in the wisdom of God we were searching it out , and in his Will waiting for his Counsel . The Scoffer reflects , That notwithstanding all this , neither G. Fox , G. Whitehead , nor any other of the infallible Gang could find it out , till Chr. Atkinson , prickt with the stings of his own Conscience , did freely and of his own accord confess it , and sign'd a Paper of Condemnation of himself for this wicked Fact , p. 90 , 91 , 92. Sect. 10. And what of all this ? What can he make of it ? That the then Quakers could not find out the Matter of Fact , till upon their searching it out and waiting in the Will of God for his Counsel , the Offender was made to confess it , from inward Conviction in 's own Conscience ? And what 's the consequence ? Therefore they were not led by an infallible Spirit ; that follows not . That Spirit might lead them to search and examine the Offender , in order to bring him under Judgment and Sense of his Evil , which they understood before , and upon Examination and placing true Judgment upon him , were made instrumental to bring him under Judgment and Confession ; for some discovery of his Crime was made before , which occasioned their farther Enquiry and Care to prevent the reproach thereof from falling upon Truth and our Friends that were innocent . Besides , G. W. was not at Norwich when this Miscarriage hapned and was discovered ; yet he affirms , that sometime before , both he and some others perceived that the said C. Atkinson's Spirit was wrong , and that he did not live in the fear of God , nor in Humility , and that they were burthened concerning him , and did seriously caution him ; but he was too high to receive their Counsel , insomuch that they were jealous Truth would suffer by him some way or other , tho' they pretended not to know the Grossness of his Miscarriage aforehand , nor till some discovery was made thereof ; neither were they ( or are we ) desirous to know all private Conversations and Actions of evil Men. We pretend not to know by Revelation , or the infallible Spirit , how many drunken Priests are in England , &c. nor how many of them have had their Misses , and Bastards by their Maids and others ; nor who they all are by Name ; but by outward Relation we have had account of a great many such , tho' we charge not all , nor any of the eminent ones , who are more sober than the rest . And if this scornful Adversary shall therefore conclude that we have not the Spirit of Christ ( which is infallible ) he might as well conclude , no Man has it , because not omniscient ; which were very absurd and blasphemous . And then be sure he has excluded himself from having that infallible Spirit of Christ , and so is none of his , and consequently destroyed the credit of all his own Work against us ; as therein having followed his own Spirit ( dictated by Satan ) as the false and lying Prophets did , and not the Spirit of the Lord God. To his scurrilous Story of more tender regard shewed to some young Women who had given a Confession in Writing to John Bolton , of their frailty in the Flesh , as is told in the Spirit of the Hat ; but it was hush'd up because it touched many eminent ones in the Ministry , who from Day to Day resorted unto them , &c. p. 95 , 96. Sect. 10. This is a sligh insinuating way of implicitely scandalizing Persons by such old envious Stories , and all to cast Dirt not only upon some private Persons , but even upon many eminent ones of the Ministry , without telling us the Names either of the Men or Women charged . At this rate many honest Persons , who are of good Fame also , may be very injuriously brought under suspicion of great Enormity and Scandal . But let this Adversary , who is so very credulous of such infamous Stories , come forth and shew himself , and be more plain and particular in his Charge , as of the Persons and Matters of Fact charged , together with the said Confession of the Women ; and probably he may have a more direct Answer : For his suspicious Charge , as it is exhibited by him , appears a very blind Story , which we can make neither Head nor Tail of . And the Spirit of the Hat did then prejudicially and blindly bring it forth ; which 't is hoped the Author hath repented of long before this time . But this Opposer should look and examin among his own Brethren , and remember that the Incontinency of Priests is no new thing ; for there is an old penal Statue-Law , 1 H. 7. 4. made against Priests , Clerks and religious Men for Incontinency , being duly convicted of Advoutry , Fornication , Incest , or any other fleshly Incontinency , to be punished by the Ordinary by Imprisonment , according to the quantity and quality of the Trespass . If this Law be obsolete and not put in Execution , we cannot suppose 't is because all the Priests are reformed and clear of that Enormity in these Days . However , they would not all be charged with the Faults of some . Sn. p. 99. I hope what has been said will be sufficient to cure Men of this most mistaken pretence to Infallibility , grounded upon the Infallibility of the Spirit of God , as if nothing could proceed from Infallibility , but what was infallible . Re. 1. We know no mistaken pretence to Infallibility , that 's grounded on the Infallibility of the Spirit of God ; for 't is an infallible unerring Spirit in all its Gifts , Teachings , Operations and Fruits , and leads the truly spiritual-minded into all Truth ; and no other Spirit can we ground Infallibility , in Matters of Faith or Duty , upon . 2. As no Lie is of the Truth , so nothing proceeds from this Spirit of Truth , but what 's true and certain , as all its Ways and Teachings are . Sn. p. 102. The Case of the Quakers is so hard , that if we can prove but ONE false Prophet among them , the Infallibility of All and every one of them must be a Deceit ; because ( out of E. Burr . ) the Infallibility is asserted to belong to every One of them in particular . Re. 1. The first part is as good Logick , as to say , If we can prove but one Drunkard , or effeminate debauched Person , among the Clergy of England , then they are all Drunkards , &c. and their pretence to be all ( and every one of them ) Christ's Ministers , is but a Deceit ; but let him better consider on 't : True Prophets were not to suffer , nor to be branded for the false Prophet's Falshood and Presumption . See Deut. 18. 20 , 21 , 22. 2. Infallibility is no otherwise asserted to belong to every one , or any of us , than as we are led by the Spirit of Truth and taught thereby , a Manifestation whereof is given to every one to profit withal . But we do not therefore grant , that every ( or any ) false Prophet , belongs to us or our Society . Sn. p. 102 , 103. To his long Story of a Quaker-Glover in Cheapside who had his Till robb'd , and of a Quaker-Prophet mistaken in the Person , &c. Re. 'T is too long a Story to repeat , and seems designed to render us ridiculously odious ; to which at present take the Answer following , till the Snake-man appears to bring forth better Proof . THE Glover replies for himself , thinking it no Favour to have his Name concealed under a true state of the Case , and minds his Author it is not safe nor warrantable to publish by Hear-say ; for his Account is almost in every part false , containing at least twelve plain Mistakes at best . A natural Consequence of being over-officious and medling in other Mens Affairs ; which he is the readier to let him know , that if he will please to appear Face to Face , and hath two Ears , may be yet better informed by him ; who is willing to join Issue with him in his great many more Instances , as he saith . Nath. Marks . Among his many repeated Falshoods , there is something of Truth hinted about one he calls a Prophet ( although never so esteemed by us ) who not keeping in Humility , true Fear and Watchfulness ( as the Light of the Lord would have guided him ) the Enemy prevailed to hurry him ( by the shrength of Imagination and a secret discomposure of Mind ) wrongfully to charge a Person with the Fact , for which he has been reprehended and testified against ; and we desire the Lord may truly humble that Person unto true Repentance . Is it just to reproach all for this one Man's Offence ? Would this Accuser be so dealt by , from the gross Miscarriages of many of his esteemed reverend Brethren of the Clergy ? Or because some of them have run Mad , would he and the rest be so deemed ? We trow not . Sn. p. 104 , 105. These Quaker-Prophets resolv'd to try their Hands round , since they had begun , and see if they could terrifie some or other to confess their Infallibility . Re. What Prophets , and how many , did so resolve ? This is a foul Aspersion , mix'd with the other false and partial Story , to defame us , and to invalidate our Christian Testimony which is to the Spirit of Truth and its Infallibility . Sn. p. 112. Now it is made apparent that that Spirit which possesses them ( i. e. the Quakers ) is the very Spirit of Lies , which is the Spirit of the Devil ; and consequently that their Light within is Darkness ; and then , as our Saviour said , O how great is that Darkness ! Re. What a blasphemous , scornful and defaming Wretch is this ? 1. Thus to defame and condemn a sober religious People , as possest with the Spirit of the Devil , from some personal Mistakes , Failings and Weaknesses . 2. Thus to condemn the Principle ( i. e. our Light within ) as great Darkness , because of some personal Miscarriages , or Darkness prevailing , through their not walking in the true Light which we profess . Sn. p. 113. O therefore let those Christians beware , who are led away with pretences to the Spirit in any Men , not only against , but beside that which is written , who break the Vnity of the Church ( which Christ calls the tearing of his own Body to pieces ) and forsake the Communion of their lawful Bishops , whom Christ has left as his own immediate Representatives and Vice gerents , and as the Principles of Vnity in their respective Churches . Re. This Story affects all Protestant Dissenters , how conscientious soever any of them are , as if they were all led by an ill Spirit , against Scripture , to break the Unity of the Church of Christ , and tear his Body to pieces , and to forsake the Communion of Christ's own immediate Representatives and Vice-gerents . Very high Charges indeed , but we deny them ; he must produce some better Proofs than his own ipse dixit , or thus imposing upon Dissenting Protestants . And suppose some such Dissenters should deny a Church , guilty of severe Persecution , to be the Church or Body of Christ ; and such Bishops as have countenanced Persecution , to be his Vice-gerents ; and therefore cannot in Conscience hold Communion with them , or with that Church ; what proof will he bring to satisfie the Denyers thereof ? See what follows . Sn. p. 115. Sect. 10. Tho' God sent many Prophets to reprove the Kings and the Priests , yet they neither rebelled against the Kings , nor set up opposite Altars against those of those wicked Priests : But AS they paid all dutiful Obedience to their persecuting Kings , and suffered Martyrdom under them without resistance ; SO did they always keep in the Communion of those same Priests , whom they had provok'd and reprov'd , and paid all due Obedience to their sacred Authority . Re. 1st . That God sent Prophets to reprove the wickedness of Kings and Priests , and the Covteousness , Idolatry , Prophaneness and Persecution of corrupt and polluted Priests , is true ; and that true Prophets patiently suffered by both . 2. But that the true Prophets did always keep in the Communion of those same corrupted , polluted and wicked Priests , whom they had reproved ( as asserted ) we deny ; for the Holy Prophets had a distinct , pure Communion , from that of the polluted Priests . 3. 'T is no better than a piece of Popery thus to plead for keeping Communion with wicked Priests , and Obedience to their Authority as sacred ( when they have no divine or sacred Authority , ) being debased by their own Iniquity . This is to make People Vassals to a corrupt Priesthood , such as the holy Prophets testified against , and as God overthrew , for their Covetousness , Idolatry and Wickedness ; the great Corruption of Priests , is sufficient cause to dissent and separate from them . Sn. p. 124 , 125. Their Churches have censur'd these Separatists , and consequently given Judgment against the Light within particular Persons . Re. The Consequence is falsly deduced ; for where the Separation is a Self-separation , for which no just Cause is or can be assigned , or Corruption charged upon the Society or Church from whom the Separation is made ; 't is unwarrantable , and not arising from the true Light in any particular Persons ; and therefore , the Judgment against such a Self-separation is not against the Light , but against a Fruit of the Flesh and Darkness : The Lord requires a Separation from the Unclean ; but not from the Congregation of his People , nor from the Flocks of his Companions . Sn. p. 128. The Ground of this Persecution against G. Keith , was his preaching Christ without , or a personal Christ in Heaven , besides the Light within , which he said was only the spiritual Presence of Christ , by his Light and Life in all his Children . P. 130. They do not really believe in any other Saviour than their own Light within , which they call Christ ; and so endeavour to amuse us . Re. 1. We never understood that G. K. was prosecuted for preaching Christ without in Heaven , and only his spiritual Presence by his Light and Life in all his Children , seeing this is all still but one and the same indivisible Christ , and not two Christs ; Christ as in the Heavens and as in our Hearts , is not divided . There were other Matters charg'd against G. K. of his turbulent Spirit and Behaviour , making Divisions , Parties , Separations , &c. 2. We do really believe in the intire Christ of God , who was sent to be the Saviour and Light of the World , that enlightens every Man coming into it ; and he is our Light , Life and Salvation ; and this can amuse none but them that walk in Darkness . Sn. p. 140. That G. K. upon the Text , 1 John 1. 7. said , It ought to be taken literally , that it was the outward shedding of Christ's Blood * which cleanseth from Sin ; and that this was not to be resolved into the Light within , nor to be spiritualiz'd away from the Letter . Re. Let us be excused , if we cannot take that Text , 1 John 1. 7. altogether literally ; if cleansing from all Sin , be a spiritul and inward Work or Act , as no doubt it is , there 's as much ascribed to the Spirit as to the Blood , in respect to the Work of Sanctification , Washing and Cleansing from Sin. And therefore the Blood of Christ may be both taken spiritually and literally ; and this is not to spiritualize away the Letter relating to the outward Blood and Sacrifice of Christ , seeing we have always believed , both in the Letter , and receive the Fruit thereof in the Spirit . Sn. p. 148. Sect. 11. These Men , whose chief Principle is to decry and damn the Letter . Re. This is a most gross and foul Calumny . Our preferring the Spirit to the Letter , as the Apostles did , is no decrying nor damning the Letter , nor so intended by us , but to bring People to the Life and Substance , and real fulfilling of Scripture . To what he saith in distinction between Christ the Word of God , and the Book of Scriptures , p. 151 , 152. this makes for us , and against them , who have often affirmed that Book to be the Word , in opposition to our owning Christ to be the Word , of whom the Scriptures testifie . And this , on our part , is no Contempt of the Holy Scriptures , nor in their place any deifying of our own Spirit and our own Scriptures , as this Adversary most falsly accuseth us , p. 152. His most seeming pretence for Proof against us , of Contempt of Holy Scripture , is in p. 142. Sect. 11. where he quotes a Passage out of a Book , Entituled , The Quaker's Refuge , &c. thus : viz. Whether the first Pen-man of the Scriptures was Moses or Hermes ? Or , whether both these are not one ? Or , whether there are not many Words contained in the Scriptures , which were not spoken by Inspiration of the Holy Spirit ? Whether some Words were not spoken by the grand Impostor ; some by wicked Men ; some by wise Men , ill applied ; some by good Men , ill express'd ; some by false Prophets , and yet true ; some by true Prophets , and yet false — And here the Accuser breaks off in his Citation , like as F. Bugg used to deal by us , who has the same Passage to defame us as he hath done . Whereas next after the Words , And yet false , these follow , viz. Is not the Subject of my Argument at this time . Here 't is plain the Author R. R. has cited these Questions about the Scriptures , not as the Subject of his own Argument , but of some others ; he would not then be concerned to dispute those Questions or Doubts . For the said Author farther confesseth , That such Scriptures and Prophesies as have been written and prophesied by the Holy Men of God , as they were moved by his Spirit , treating of the Mystery of God in the Redemption and Salvation of Mankind by Jesus Christ , and the Duty of Man in his Obedience to , and Worship of the same God , as his reasonable Service ; for the Gift of so great Salvation are the great Concerns now under our most serious Consideration . From hence it 's clear the Author was no Contemner of Holy Scripture ; and 't is clear , the Subject of his Argument was for the Authority of the Holy Spirit , in judging or discerning the Mind of God in the Holy Scriptures , as truly own'd by the Quakers , thus in the said Book , Quaker's Refuge , p. 17. which could not intend any Contempt of the Holy Scriptures ; much less a deifying either of our own Spirit ( i. e. the Spirit of Man ) or our own Writings in their place . We have rarely ever met with more mad , unlikely and improbable Aspersions than these , from our most outragious Adversaries . To what is objected , p. 155. Sect. 11. viz. That they ( i. e. the Quakers ) cannot be bound by any Command in the Scriptures , unless their Spirit anew require the same . This is falsly stated ; 't is not our own Spirit ( i. e. the Spirit of Man abstractly ) that we profess to be under the Conduct of , but the same Spirit which gave forth the Holy Scriptures . And is not awanting to require of us the performance of its own necessary Commands and Doctrins contained in the Scriptures , seeing 't is the same Spirit which leads it's sincere Followers into all Truth ; consequently not to undervalue any of those blessed Truths recorded in the Holy Scriptures . And therefore this Adversary's Consequence intended against us , viz. That the Scripture remains of no Authority with us , p. 155. is very unjust , being deduced from his own false Suggestions , supposing us to set the Spirit in opposition to the Scriptures of Truth , whereas we plead for the divine Authority of the Holy Scriptures , in so much preferring the Holy Spirit from whence they proceeded and derive their Authority , and not from Human Tradition . And this is far from spiritualizing away all the Letter of the Scripture , or Christ's Humanity , as in p. 166. as we are often unjustly aspersed . To what he saith , p. 168. That Enthusiasts have no Principles ; they have no Rule but their own Fancy , which is strongest in mad Men , and this they mistake for Inspiration ; and then their Madness is at the height . We say , take Enthusiasm in the truest and best Sense , and then such are inspired of God ; and by his Inspiration , have a true Understanding and right Principles given them , both Divine and Moral , and do not mistake Fancy for Divine Inspiration . But to whom does the Man apply this Enthusiasm which he renders Fancy , more strong in mad Men and height of Madness ? In his next Page 't is to the Quakers . He says , No Quaker can deny but that the Principle of the Quakers is all Enthusiasm . There never was any Enthusiasm in the World that exceeded it , p. 169. Sect. 11. Here he seems to take Enthusiasm in the Quaker's Sense , which is Divine Inspiration or inspired of God ; which sure cannot be meer Fancy , much less the height of Madness ( as before . ) The Quakers certainly deny this of themselves : Thus the Man's confused in 's injurious Attempts to defame us with the height of Madness . His Objection against the Quaker's Enthusiasm , ( as he calls it ) That none that ever called themselves Christians have advanced themselves so high , to have the same infallible Spirit and immediate Revelation as the Prophets and Apostles , or as Christ himself , &c. p. 169. Herein he 's greatly out : All true Christians are Partakers of the Spirit of Christ in some degree or measure ; for he that hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of his , and his Spirit is infallible ; and a Manifestation of the same Spirit is given to every Man to profit withal , and the Effusion of this Spirit upon all Flesh was promised ; and we believe the Promises of God , which are all Yea and Amen in Christ Jesus . Therefore this our Adversary , who is so much averse to having the same infallible Spirit , and so opposite to Infallibility , is none of Christ's , consequently no Christian. And he does but follow his own fallible Spirit , ( being prompted on by the Father of Lies ) in what he writes against us , consequently of no Credit therein ; so like one of those false Prophets that follow their own Spirits , and see nothing . But then severely to aggravate the Matter against us poor Madmen ( in his esteem ) he 'll needs have it , That the height of our Self-advancement is to be equal even to God ; to be one Person , Substance and Soul with God : And he does not think that any Human Government can be secure of Men , in whose Power it is to screw themselves up to such blasphemous heights of Enthusiasm , p. 169 , 170. We Answer ; 'T is better to be mad Men and Fools , than to be screwed up by the Father of Lies to such a height of Malice and Outrage , as this insulting and railing Rabshekah appears to be puft up in . When did ever the Quakers so advance themselves , to be one Person , Substance , Soul with God , and equal even to God ? We positively deny the Charge , and the Words themselves ( but only as we are united or joined to the Lord we are one Spirit ) and give this Person leave to secure such Persons in Bedlam , if he can find any among us , that he can plainly prove to hold the same as he charges . And therefore his insinuating such presumptuous Blasphemies against the Quakers in general , to render them so highly obnoxious , and the Government insecure of them ; this is highly and deadly malicious ; and he might as well have taken one Step further to have shewn his Teeth , and have told the Government what he would have done with the Quakers ; how he would have them dealt with to be secure of them ; whether he would have them closely Confin'd , Hang'd or Banish'd ; for take our Word , his Charge is very high against them , and implies no small Reflection upon the Civil Government , for so kindly suffering and indulging such extreamly pernicious mad Folks , as he has over and over rendred the Quakers ; which serves but to evince the Folly of his own Fury and Madness , against a peaceable innocent People . P. 153. Sect. 11. To his ridiculing Womens Preaching and Womens Meetings , &c. 1. We do not institute Womens Preachings as he saith , but leave them free to the Gift and Call of God. 2. Neither hath he proved that they are universally and perpetually forbidden to speak in the Church , by that 1 Cor. 14. 34 , 35. The Apostle Paul did not intend to make void God's Promise of the pouring out of his Spirit upon Sons and Daughters to prophesie , Joel 2. 28 , 29. Acts 2. 17 , 18. No , he allowed Women to Pray or Prophesie , when so divinely indued and inspired thereunto , 1 Cor. 11. 5 , 13. 3. Our Scoffer tells us of the Prelacy of Womens Meetings ; which he calls an Invention never heard of in the World , till G. F. cobled it out . As for the Term Prelacy 't is his own , given in his Scorn and Ignorance . As for our Womens Meetings , what has the Scorner against them or their Services , more than his own Ignorance and Scorn ? We know Them and their Help and Service to be truly Christian and Charitable , consequently to be of the Lord ; their Intent and Service being to be helpful in their Places , for promoting true Christian Charity and Religion in Life and Practice , and particularly with regard to Fatherless and Widows among us , that they may not be neglected , but Visited and Ministred unto in their Afflictions , for their necessary Relief and Comfort . And these Meetings are very expedient and convenient for Intelligence among them , of such Objects of Charity and Compassion . There were Deaconesses , as well as Deacons , in the Primitive Christian Churches . 4. This Church-man has no reason to deride or contemn our Women's Meetings ; we charge not his Church with our Poor , tho' we help to Relieve the Poor of his Church , both Parish-poor and Beggars , to his and their Shame be it spoken , who blindly ridicules our Christian Care and Charitable Methods in this Matter . In Sect. 12. concerning the Light within . That the Light which lightneth every Man coming into the World , being the divine Word the Son of God , is not natural Reason or Conscience , but above both and enlightneth both , is true , because divine and universally in every Man ; and therefore we do not by Virtue of this Light , advance our selves above all Mankind , nor damn all but our selves , as is falsly suggested against us , p. 171. But as we are turned and converted from Darkness unto this Light , the Lord hath advanced us above what we our selves were in our natural and unconverted State , and above all others who yet remain in that state . To the Question , Whether a Man can sin while he follows this Light ? p. 172. Answ. No , nor in his truly following it . And that he cannot leave the Light , without knowing it or being followed with Judgment and Conviction thereof by the Light , is true also . Whence it does not follow that there can be no Sin of Ignorance , as is wrongfully inferred , p. 173. For there are Sins of Ignorance before Conviction and Conversion , whilst Men walk in Darkness , being ignorant of the Light that shines in it , and their Minds estranged from it ; but after convicted , or Conversion in measure , if they backslide in Heart and leave the Light , they cannot be left altogether ignorant of their backsliding , because they shall be left without Excuse , who either through their impenitent hard Hearts treasure up Wrath to themselves , or backslide in Heart , or wilfully sin until judicially hardned , after they have received the knowledge of the Truth . 1. Because of God's universal Call and Visitation by his Light and Free Grace in Christ to Sinners . 2. Because of his swiftly pursuing the Wicked , and all them that forsake him , by his Spirit of Judgment : For these , and other Causes , they are all inexcusable before him , and the Light will pursue them even to Hell , as it did the rich Man when in Hell he lift up his Eyes , Luke 16. 23 , 28. To what our Opposer objects from these Scriptures , Luke 23. 34. John 16. 2. 2 Thess. 2. 11. Mat. 6. 23. Acts 3. 17. 1 Cor. 2. 8. thence inferring against the Infallibility of the Light within , and saying , There can be no such Mistake as our Saviour supposes , ( Mat. 6. 23. ) If the Light within be infallible , and that every Man has it , and that no Man can leave it without knowing of it , p. 174. To all which we Answer , That some Men's Ignorance of their Master's Will , others wrong Thoughts , others being given up to strong Delusion to believe a Lie , others greatly mistaking Darkness for Light ( and then how great is that Darkness of theirs ? ) These can be no Proofs against the Infallibility of the Light it self , nor of the Light within being fallible , but of their own Transgression , Disobedience and Rebellion against the Light ; Who know not the ways of the Light , because they abide not in the Paths of it , Job 24. 13. And though there 's no Sin against the Light or Backsliding from it , without some Conviction at one time or other , yet 't is possible for some to presume to sin , rebel and shut their Eyes so long , until they become stark blind and hardned in sinning and past feeling in Rebellion , and given over to hardness of Heart and to strong Delusion to believe a Lie , and so to Damnation and Destruction ; yet however clouded all this while , the Light in them remains in it self pure , certain , and an infallible swift Witness against the Rebellious , who love Darkness and the Works thereof , rather than the Light which is come into the World. Mens thinking themselves to be in the right when mistaken , p. 174 , 175. ( having their Understandings darkned ) will not destroy all ( or any of ) the Quakers certainty which they have in the true Light , as they believe and walk therein . P. 176 , 177. It was hard for Saul to Kick against the Pricks ; and that is against the Power of Christ , which would be too hard for him , if he strove against it , as is confest : No doubt that Power reached his Conscience when awakened and convicted , consequently those Pricks which that gave him were then in him ; and that Power or Holy Ghost which Stephen's Persecutors and Saul also resisted , ( when he kept their Garments while they stoned him and consented to his Death ) was near them to convict and condemn them for their Persecution and Cruelty , but their Fury , Wrath and Violence , would not permit them to adhere or submit to the strivings thereof , for they always resisted the same Holy Spirit as did their Fathers , Acts 7. 51. Which Resistance of theirs implies the Spirit 's secretly striving with them and giving Counsel against their Wickedness and Cruelty ; for how can there be always a resisting that which either is not , or moves not , or counsels not ? O therefore the same Holy Spirit and Light of it , was in them in some measure moving and striving with them , to persuade , stop and reclaim them from those destructive Courses and Enormities they had chosen . And here we may observe how he excuses the Ministry , where People are not converted by it , he deems it a very bad Argument to blame the Ministry ; for Mens being Evil may proceed from their own Perversness , and not from the Fault of the Ministry , Pref. p. 57. May we not retalliate such Argument for the Light within , That 't is a very bad Argument that the Light within is either insufficient or fallible , because Men are Evil , or blind or mistaken ? Which may proceed from their own Disobedience or Perverseness , and not from any defect or fault in the Light given them . And when Saul thought with himself that he ought to do many things contrary to the Name of Jesus of Nazareth , and was zealous in persecuting and imprisoning the Christians , and exceeding mad against them , Acts 26. 9 , 10. 11. This was in his blind deceived State , when a Follower of the persecuting Priests , and the more blinded by such blind Guides as hate the true Light and oppose it ; For , as Paul saith , I persecuted this way unto the Death , binding and delivering into Prison both Men and Women , Acts 22. 4. For many of the Saints I shut up in Prison , having received Authority of the High Priests , and when they were put to Death , I gave my Sentence , Acts 26. 10. So that the Priests were very ill Instruments to influence and misguide him in Persecution and Cruelty , contrary to the Light ; such his Blindness , Madness and injurious Persecution against the Saints , to Imprisonment and Death , being expresly contrary to the Law of God without them and within them , in Scripture and Conscience . Will any be so blind , as to suppose God did not afford them so much Light , as to shew them such gross Iniquities and Injuries to others who were innocent ? How impertinent and senseless then is the Man's Question , viz. Had Paul then any Pricks of Conscience , or of his Light within against the lawfulness of that wherein he was fully persuaded and zealous ? p. 177. No doubt he had so much Light in him , as would both have prickt him for , and shewn the Unlawfulness of his Persecution and Cruelty against the Saints , if he would have inclined his Mind to it for Counsel , and not to the Priests who encouraged him in Persecution against the Christians , which they persuaded him to , and not the Light. They helped to make him so mad against the Saints as he was ; but Christ the Light , whose Power prickt him , made him wise when converted ; and tho' 't is possible that in his Hurry and Fury to Persecution , he might not at that very instant feel the Pricks of the Light in 's Conscience , yet it swiftly pursued him and seiz'd him , when Christ had wonderfully put a stop to him and his Letters and Errand from the High Priests to persecute the Saints . Tho' the Candle of the Wicked may be many times put out , 't is lighted again . For how oft is the Candle of the Wicked put out ? How oft is Destruction upon him ? If it be often put out , 't is often lighted . And therefore all these things seriously consider'd , we do not see it any hard Matter to make sense of the Quakers Notion ( as he calls it ) of the Light within , nor that this Instance of St. Paul can stand as any irrefragable ( or other ) Proof against it ; or , our Testimony for that true Light which inlightens every Man coming into the World , John 1. 4 , 9. Because many are blinded by the persecuting and covetous Priests , and many shut their Eyes against the Light , and many love Darkness rather than Light , because their Deeds are evil , and the Candle of the Wicked is often put out . But they shall all find it hard to Kick against the Pricks even in their own Consciences , as 't is confessed even in the English Annotation , in the Margin , on Acts 9. 5. It is hard for thee to Kick against the Pricks , i. e. to resist God when he pricketh and soliciteth our Consciences ; therefore such prickings are within . All which truly consider'd , 't is no difficulty to make Sense of the Quaker's Notion ( as he calls it ) of the Light within , p. 178. seeing 't is according to the express Sense of Holy Scripture-Testimony thereof , and the Sense which the Light gives all them that truly regard it , Christ being the Light of the World that inlightens every Man coming into it , that whosoever believe in his Light and follow him the Light , might not abide in Darkness but have the Light of Life , and become Children of the Light. Neither doth our Adversary's Instance of St. Paul ( or others ) stand as any irrefragable Proof against the Light within , or the Quakers Notion of it , as he vainly supposeth , p. 178. Unless it be a good Argument , that because some Men are blind , and others shut their Eyes , there 's no Sun in the Firmament giving Light into their Houses . We find no better Proof or Argument from this Adversary against the Light within , or our Testimony thereof ; and 't is far more difficult to make Sense of his Notion of the Light within , than of our's : For after he has in Words owned and confessed to Divine Illumination or Inspiration of the Holy Spirit , as that Enthusiasm or Inspiration of God , which is allowed and owned in their Church , and that 't is full as much as any sober Quaker can mean by the Light within , Pref. from p. 46. to p. 55 , 56. Another while he 'll have the Light within not Infallible , but Fallible , because of Men's Mistake , who put Darkness for Light , p. 173 , 174. 2d Part. Another while he 'll have the Light within no Light , from Isa. 8. 20. placing this Remark upon it , No Light , George ; mark that , p ▪ 251. But he should have observed the Hebrew Note in the Margin , No Morning , instead of No Light , which I may return upon him . If they speak not according to this Word , it is because there is No Morning to them . No Morning ! Man ; mark that . But is there no Light before Morning , pray ? Now how difficult is it to make Sense of this Man's Notion of the Light within ? One while with him , 'T is a Divine Inspiration ; another while , 'T is Fallible ; another while , No Light : So that one while 't is a divine , good and certain Light ; another while uncertain , not Infallible ; another while 't is nothing , no Light. Thus confusedly and madly Envy and Darkness appears against the true Light. This Adversary , to prove his false , reitterrated black Charge , That the Quakers take to themselves the very Attributes of God ; and make a pretence , from this Light within , to excuse blasphemous Pride , assuming All the Worship due to Christ whom they call this Light , upon the account of his or its Inhabitation in them , p. 178. He refers to G. Whitehoad's Innocency against Envy , p. 18. Sect. 12. in Answer to F. Bugg , viz. As to his Charge of idolatrous if not blasphemous Names and Titles given to G. F. How proves he that they ( i.e. Two Persons in their Letters to him ) gave and intended those Names and Titles to the Person of G. F. &c. This Story , in the first part , is notoriously false , as it affects the Quakers in general . The last part is a blind Story , as 't is intended for Proof of the black Charge before ; those idolatrous Names and Titles are not mentioned , nor any plain Proof of the exact Copies of both those Letters could we ever have . And G. W. has further cleared this Matter in another Answer to F. B. as also in his Just Inquiry , from p. 19. to p. 30. And in behalf of the People called Quakers , we positively and sincerely deny ; 1. That they take to themselves the very Attributes of God. 2. That they excuse blasphemous Pride , as that of assuming all Worship due to Christ , because of his inhabiting in them : These , with Detestation , we solemnly deny . But this Accuser should have looked at home , and at his Brethren of the Clergy , what Honour and Attributes do they give to their Bishops , when they go down upon their Knees to them , as their Reverend Fathers in God , with Your Grace , My Lord , &c. Do these import Divine Honour and Divine Attributes , or Earthly , pray ? And where did ever Christ's Ministers or Apostles , do such Homage to Timothy or Titus , or call either of them my Lord Timothy , or my Lord Titus , and Your Grace , & c ? And what thinks he of Godfathers and Godmothers ? Are not these Divine Attributes , and very high ones too ? And of their being Sureties for Infants , for their forsaking the Devil and all his Works , &c. and keeping God's holy Will and Commandments , &c. Do they not herein take upon them Christ's Office and Work , who is our Surety ? And what Scripture have they for these ? Answer directly . 'T is a notorious Untruth also , That they ( i. e. the Quakers ) allow of divine Honour to the Man Christ Jesus , on no other account than as G. W. allows it to G. Fox ; that is , because of the residing of the divine Word in him , p. 180. We say this is apparently false ; for on divers other Accounts we allow divine Honour ; and far more Honour to the Man Christ Jesus , than to any mortal or finite Creature whatsoever , as in all things Christ Jesus hath the Preheminence , and all Fulness dwelling in him , and all Power in Heaven and Earth committed to him , and were not all the Angels of God to worship him ? And all Men to honour the Son , as they honour the Father ? Therefore this Opposer's blasphemous Consequences drawn against us , from his black Charge aforesaid , As worshipping one another with divine Honour , and not grudging to apply all the Attributes of God to themselves for the Light within sake , &c. p. 181 , 182. with the rest of his Consequences of the same kind , are as false as the other . We desire ever to walk humbly with God in Christ Jesus , in a holy Reverence and Worship to him only , to whom all divine Worship , Glory and Honour is due . In his 13th Sect. Of the Resurrection of the Body . This ( saith he ) the Quakers do positively deny , p. 182. Here he stumbles at the Threshold , and deals disingeniously and falsly with the Quakers . They deny not the Resurrection of the Body , by denying the gross and carnal Notions of our former Adversaries , of the self-same carnal and numerical Body of Flesh , Blood and Bones ; no more than the Apostle denied the Resurrection of the Dead , by affirming , That Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , neither doth Corruption inherit Incorruption , 1 Cor. 15. For proof That the Quakers do positively deny the Resurrection ; he says , That Mr. Penn makes Nonsense of it ; and worse , he compares it to Transubstantiation , nay , to the Alcoran ; quoting Reason against Railing , 1673. p. 138. which is a plain Perversion , and as false as the Charge it self : For W. Penn does neither make Nonsense of the Resurrection it self , scripturally considered , nor compare it either to Transubstantiation , or to the Alcoran . But T. Hick's gross Belief and Apprehension of a Carnal or Fleshly Resurrection of the self-same Carnal Body ; and yet that it shall be so changed , as to be a spiritual glorious Body , like unto Christ's . This he compares to the Doctrin of Transubstantiation , as the Papists say , That the Bread and Wine , after Conse cration are so changed as to be the very Christ , and yet the Accidents remain ( i.e. of Bread and Wine ) so he can't make better Sense of his Adversary's gross apprehension of the Resurrection of the Body , being or remaining the same carnal Body of Flesh , Blood and Bones that 's buried , and yet changed so as to be a spiritual and glorious Body , like unto Christ's , which was not to deny the Scripture-Doctrin of the Resurrection it self , but rather a carnal Alcoran Notion thereof ; for in the Book quoted Reason against Railing , p. 133. And under the same Head , take W. P.'s plain Confession of the Resurrection in his own Words , against his Adversary , viz. Who can have the Confidence to call the Scripture his Rule , and yet contradict it so egregiously , as when the Apostle tells us , It is not the same Body that is sown that shall be , to assert that it is the same Body ; and that who says the contrary , denies the Resurrection and eternal Recompence , ( which is a very confident Perversion and Opposition to the Apostle's Doctrin . ) In short , we do acknowledge a Resurrection in order to eternal Recompence , and that every Seed shall have its own Body , and rest contented with what Body it shall please God to give us ( who giveth a Body as it pleaseth him , 1 Cor. 15. ) But as we are not such Fools as curiously to enquire what ? so must we for ever deny the gross Conceits of T. H. and his Adherents , &c. And in conclusion of the same Head , Reason against Railing , p. 124. he saith , For our parts a Resurrection we believe , and of Bodies too , unto Eternal Life . What they shall not be , I have briefly said and proved ; what they shall be , we leave with God , who will give every one a Body as it pleaseth him ; and Thou Fool belongs to the unnecessary Medler . Thus 't is evident W. P. did not deny the Resurrection it self , nor count it Nonsense , &c. but the gross Conceits of some Persons about it : Consequently , this Accuser has charged the Quakers as falsly in this Point , as in the rest . And we know not Those others ( among us he tells of ) that suppose the Soul it self is the spiritual Body mentioned , 1 Cor. 15. 44. and consequently that there is no other Resurrection than at each particular Persons death , p. 184. We know none in our Society hold or suppose these things ; but the contrary , that the Soul of every Person shall be invested with its own proper spiritual Body , in the general Resurrection and last Day . And besides , the true Believers being quicken'd and raised out of the Fall in Adam , unto Life , Righteousness and Victory , in and by Jesus Christ ( who is the Resurrection and the Life ) . Three things are also observable in that 1 Cor. 15. The Apostle argues , 1. for the Resurrection of the Dead , from the Resurrection of Christ , against some that said , There is no Resurrection of the Dead . 2. He argues against some , and reprehends them as Fools that questioned How the Dead are raised , and with what Bodies do they come forth ? From the Wheat and other Grain that 's sown , and the difference between the Celestial and Terrestrial Bodies , and the Natural Body and the Spiritual . 3. For those Saints that shall remain alive at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to raise the Dead , that they shall be changed in a moment , at the sounding of the last Trumpet of God : It 's evident that the Apostle Paul fully answers both those that said there is No Resurrection of the Dead , and also those Fools that question With what Body do they come forth ? And asserts the sudden change of those who shall remain alive until the coming of the Lord from Heaven . So that the Resurrection of the Dead , and final change of the Living , so as the Corruptible must put on Incorruption , and the Mortal shall put on Immortality . As this Doctrin was really believed by the Primitive Christians , so it is by us , who believe that God raised up Jesus from the Dead ; and therefore the Dead , both the Just and Unjust , shall be raised by Jesus Christ according to Scripture , whatever Prejudice may suggest to the contrary . But our Adversary will needs have it , That Mr. Penn does understand that long and elegant Description of the Resurrection of our Bodies , from the 35th Verse of the 15th Chap. of the first Epist. to the Corinthians , Only of the spiritual state of the Soul in this Life ; and for it quotes , The Invalidity of John Faldoe's Vindication , 1673. p. 373 , & p. 369. He wrongs W. P. in this , i. e. That he understands that long and elegant Description of the Resurrection , ( 1 Cor. 15. 35. to the end . ) Only of the spiritual state of the Soul in this Life . I say this is a Perversion and Abuse of W. P.'s Discourse in the Case ; for on verse 44. he utterly denies that this Text is concerned in the Resurrection of Man's carnal Body ; shewing , according to Beza , both from the Latin and Original Greek , that a natural Body is sown , a spiritual Body is raised ; that there 's not a Word in either for the Relative It , Inval. p. 369. And in p. 373. W. P. supposing the Apostle treated of a natural Change , and not only of the spiritual state of the Soul in this Life . This Supposition is not to understand the Apostle Paul to treat only of the spiritual state of the Soul in this Life , in that 1 Cor. 15. from v. 35. For in the place quoted , it is by the Accused confessed , That tho' we sow not the Body which shall be , God giveth a Body as it pleaseth him , from 1 Cor. 15. 37 , 38. 'T is observable , That W. P. ( in his Answer to T. Hicks and John Faldoe quoted ) is not so unnatural as not to allow the sanctified Soul a suitable Clothing or Mansion , ( when the earthly Tabernacle is dissolved ) which is eternal in the Heavens , according to 2 Cor. 5. 1. wherein it is undoubtedly happy , being in perfect Peace and Rest with God in Christ Jesus ; but he also allows it a spiritual , celestial , glorious Body in the Resurrection , far excelling the Terrestrial . And we doubt not but we shall be the same ( and as many ) distinct Souls , Men ( or Persons ) in the Resurrection as we are now , though far better Clothed with our spiritual glorious Bodies , we hope . The Premises consider'd , 't is evident our Accuser has as actually wronged us in this Point , even in Matter of Fact by Perversion , as in his saying , The Quakers have spiritualiz'd away all the Body and the Being of Christ into their Light within , p. 195. which is all a notorious Untruth , and answered before . To his Stories , 1. Of a Quaker Preacher , to whom he urging for a proof of the Resurrection , Mat. 27. 52 , 53. That many Bodies of Saints arose and came out of the Graves after Christ's Resurrection , and went into the Holy City and appeared unto many ; That he made this Answer , That was not meant of the literal or earthly Jerusalem ; that any dead Bodies arose there , but of the spiritual Jerusalem which John saw coming down from Heaven . 2. And that others told him , They heard the same Exposition in a Quaker Sermon at one of their Meetings , p. 196. Answ. We know not any Preacher among us that gave such Meaning or Interpretation to the said Text , neither do we own it . And we have reason to question the truth of these Stories . 3. He says , He can tell of a Preacher among the Quakers that said , He had already obtain'd the Resurrection by Christ , having risen in his Heart ; and that he believed no other Resurrection , nor expected any , p. 198. We question the Truth of this Story also , in the last part of it , viz. That he believed no other , nor expected any than Christ risen in him , and this also of no other we disown ; for as truly as we own Christ risen in us ( and we in him from Sin and Condemnation ) so truly do we believe and expect to be raised up by him in the last Day , above all Corruption and Mortality ; we being raised in Christ from Sin here , we shall be raised by him to Glory hereafter . And therefore are not of the Opinion of Hymeneus and Phyletus , who said , That the Resurrection is past , ( or made ) already , 2 Tim. 2. 18. For that Resurrection which Paul ( in his converted state when risen with Christ ) had not attained , Phil. 3. 11 , 12. we do believe and expect as yet to come after this Life , and at the last Day . Another Accusation is , That G. F. says plainly in these Words , There 's none have a Glory and a Heaven but within them ( leaving out what follows ) which was before Man had a Being , Gr. Myst. p. 214. This is intended of what the Saints have and enjoy in this Life , in the Present Tense , ( and not of that more full attainment in that which is to come ) who have and enjoy the indwelling of God and Christ , as their God and their Glory according to his Promise , having of this excellent Treasure in their Earthen Vessels , according to their measures of degrees of attainment , being changed from Glory to Glory ( from one degree of Glory to another ) as by the Spirit of God. There 's no doubt but all true and spiritual Believers , who are dead with Christ , and whose Life is hid with Christ in God , when Christ who is their Life shall at last appear , they shall appear with him in Glory , Col. 3. Yea , in far more Glory than 's here attainable in a mortal State. Though we are now the Sons of God , yet it appears not what we shall then be ; but when Christ appears we shall be like him , for we shall see him as he is , 1 John. 3. 2. Heaven , which is God's Throne and Dwelling-place , is no doubt so spacious , and the Heavens which declare his Glory so wonderfully extensive , that we cannot suppose they should all be contain'd in the narrow compass of our Hearts , though our Conversation be now in Heaven , and we come to a heavenly state in Christ Jesus . Therefore we do not confine all our expected Attainments of Heaven and Glory to within us in this Life , but the way to attain more thereof in that which is to come , is to partake of some share thereof in Christ Jesus , even in this Life , and where Christ is enjoy'd , there Heaven and Glory is in measure spiritually enjoy'd , there being spiritual and inward Heavens , as well as natural and outward . Note , For the spirituality of the Resurrection , Bodies , and the nature of the Body of Christ after his Resurrection and Ascension , Our Opposer may peruse H. Moor's Search into the nature of a glorified Body , Apol. ch . 3. p. 494. Of his Modest Enquiry into the Mystery of Iniquity . And compare the same with what we have written on that Subject , and then let our Opposer answer him , having been a Doctor of his own Church , and Philosopher also of Repute in Cambridge , &c. As to his 14th Sect. Of the Sacraments , ( as he terms them ) but without Scripture-proof of the Term Sacrament , as applied to the outward Elements , Signs or Shadows , which end in Christ the Substance , who livingly represents himself beyond them , by his Spirit in the Hearts and Souls of spiritual Believers , who have attained unto the spiritual Communion of the Body and Blood of Christ , and to partake of his spiritual Supper with him , Rev. 3. 10. The difference between us and our Accuser in this Point , is about the Text , 1 Cor. 11. 26. of shewing forth the Lord's Death till he come , as he says By the Celebration of his last Supper , Whether this coming of Christ be spiritually in our Hearts , or at the Resurrection at the last Day , which ends the time limited for the Celebration thereof ? We believe it of the first ( if that may be owned as any real coming of Christ ) He of the last . His Reason is , That Christ was so come in the Hearts of the Holy Apostles and of the purest Primitive Christians . The Apostle's condescending to divers Things that were Shadows and Figures for sometime ; it follows not that therefore , we are bound to imitate them in all things they did . Neither were the Corinthians the purest of Primitive Christians when Paul writ his first Epistle to them ; nor had they then so far attained to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ , as to confirm and make them blameless as in his Day , but then waited for such his coming , 1 Cor. 1. for there were divers Disorders among them , and many of them carnal and walked as Men. And therefore they were not then of the purest of Christians ; though they had good Gifts , yet they had then great need to wait for the coming of Christ to make them better , to bring them into a blameless state . The Apostles themselves were come to higher Attainments in Christ Jesus , which they laboured to bring their Hearers to , as is evident from Paul's desiring That the Corinthians might not be ignorant how that all the Fathers , who were baptized unto Moses in the Cloud and in the Sea , did all eat the same spiritual Meat and drink of the spiritual Rock which followed them or went with them , which Rock was Christ , 1 Cor. 10. And told them the Cup of Blessing which we bless , is it not the Communion of the Blood of Christ ? And the Bread which we break , it is not the Communion of the Body of Christ ? For we being many are One Bread and One Body , being all Partakers of the One Bread , ver . 16 , 17. and doubtless the knowledge of this Mystery was what he received of the Lord , which was above the Sign , Shadow or Figure thereof . Yet 't is not to be questioned , but there was a good Intention in the first Proposal and Practice of those outward Memorials of Christ's Death among the Corinthians , in the capacity they stood in , to remember and shew forth Christ's Death thereby , until they knew and had more of his Life to shew forth , in a holy and unblameable State and Conversation in the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ , for whose spiritual coming they waited , for that end , 1 Cor. 1. 6 , 7 , 8. And also that they might flee from Idolatry and keep out of it , and forbear eating in the Idols Temple , which he warned them against . As to Christ's Celebration of his last Supper , 't is strange that should be so much urg'd as obligatory upon us , until Christ's last coming again at the Resurrection in the last Day ; seeing we find none of the Urg●rs thereof so much as in a true imitation of the last Supper of Christ , where he eat the legal Passover with his Disciples , according to his own appointment , this part of the Supper being laid aside as Jewish , fulfilled and ended by Christ. And therefore to us that last Supper of Christ appears to be a Consummation and fulfilling of the Jewish solemn Feasts , under the Law , * as John's Baptism was , of the divers legal Washings ( or Baptisms ) imposed , until the time of Reformation , when Christ blotted out and nailed the Hand-writing of Ordinances to his Cross. After which , they were not legally obligatory , though condescended unto for a Season , by reason of the Weakness of divers , and Respect many had unto them in the Churches Infancy . And tho' too many now are very formal and superstitious in those outward Observations and Shadows , laying so much stress for Salvation upon them that they neglect the Substance ; yet others being more conscientiously tender in the observation thereof , we are the more tender to these , so as not to censure or condemn them meerly for practising that which they believe is their Duty , either in breaking of Bread or Water Baptism , yet desire they may see further , and come under that higher and evangelical Dispensation of the spiritual Communion and Bread of Life , and Cup of Blessing from Heaven ( which can only nourish the Soul unto eternal Life ) and of the spiritual Baptism of Christ , which only is the Soul 's sanctifying and saving Baptism ; so that this One Baptism and this One Bread , which is the Substance , they may livingly partake of unto eternal Life . We do hitherto want Proof that Paul either received of the Lord the Bread and the Cup , or the real Supper of the Lord in the Figure or Type ( but the Mystery thereof ; ) or that to observe the Figure was an Institution of Christ to continue in the spiritual Church : And tho' he fulfilled the Command of the Passover at his Supper , we have no reason to think that was his own Institution to continue in the Christian Church , no more than the Passover , Legal Offerings , Circumcision , &c. We confess , That the neglect and abuse of the Holy Mystery , p. 207. ( which is the Substance , Christ the living Bread ) did and doth incur Damnation and grievous Diseases , as among the Corinthians ; He that eateth and drinketh unworthily , eateth and drinketh Damnation to himself , not discerning he Lord's Body , 1 Cor. 11. 29. If you rest or stick in the Shadow , and neglect the Substance or Mystery , so as you discern not the Lord's Body , you discern not that whereby your Souls should live and be nourished unto eternal Life : 'T is Matter of Condemnation , you are but eating and drinking Damnation to your selves . The main end and drift of the Apostles labouring with and writing to them at Corinth , was to bring them to Life and Substance to the spiritual Rock , the spiritual Meat and Drink , which is Christ , 1 Cor. 10. 14 , 15 , 16 , 17. & 2 Cor. 13. 5. that they might be blameless in his Day ; which 't is evident the outward Figure or Shadow did not bring them to , but they were blameable , and blamed for the Carnality , Divisions and Disorders which were among them , 1 Cor. 3. 1 , 3. Now as to the outward Supper , so little being said for it by our Opposer , we are not willing to enlarge or enter into any strict Controversie about that Subject ; but for further Explanation , refer him to what our deceased Friend Robert Barclay has writ upon it , in his Apology , from p. 493 to p. 514. And if we were convinced that it is our Duty to receive Bread and Wine as an outward Memorial of Christ's Death , we should never own this our Accuser ( who has shamefully reproached us ) or any such Enemies , to be our Administrators , nor hold Communion with them . For Baptism , he alledges Mat. 28. 20. Go teach all Nations , baptizing them . — And here the Man breaks , leaving out , In the Name of the Father , and the Son , and the Holy Ghost ; and then brings in , And lo I am with you alway , even unto the end of the World : Taking it for granted , that this Commission must intend Water Baptism ; and the continuance thereof , as well as Teaching or Preaching , even unto the End of the World. Hence saying , They ( i. e. Christ's ministerial Officers ) indeed were impowered , as John , to baptize with Water , p. 205. But is this Adversary really for John's Baptism , or for baptizing as John did ? He 's not express nor plain in this Point . Tho' he would seem an eminent Advocate for the Church of England , we may greatly question his Sincerity herein . If under this Pretext he means Infants Baptism , or Sprinkling them , he should not take up the Anabaptist's Arguments for that which they oppose as a scriptureless Thing , and at the same time deem them Schismaticks , Enthusiasts , and number them among the various Sects set up by Rome , under universal Tolleration , as before , p. 17 , 18. 2d Part. He 's very disingenuous in this as well as in many other Things : He should have plainly told us what Baptism he aims at ; and who the Subjcts of it , whether Infants or Believers ; before he had either upbraided or threatned us for the neglect of it . However , pray observe the great Stress he lays upon this outward Baptism with Water , viz. That it was an Ordinance instituted as a means of Grace , whereby the inward Baptism with the Holy Ghost was conveyed ; therefore the Form appointed , of admission into the Society of the Church , and thereby giving a Title to all the Privileges and Promises annexed to it , p. 206. whereby Persons are daily baptized into Christ's death , p. 209. And tells us of Outward Signs and Seals , Pledges and Means of Grace , which he judges the Enemy has deluded Men into a neglect of . Now observe , 1. He makes Water-Baptism ( whether of Infants or Believers he resolves not ) not only an Institution , but a Means of Grace , whereby the inward Baptism of the Holy Ghost is conveyed . 2. Such a Form appointed of admission into the Church , as giveth a Title to all the Privileges and Promises , &c. 3. That 't is the Baptism into Christ's Death . 4. A Seal , Pledge and Means of Grace . In all which he does but upon his own Authority impose upon the Reader , without Scripture-proof : And his Impositions herein are liable to many Exceptions . 1. They suppose all Persons under Grace and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost , who are come under Water-Baptism , without Exception of Infants or others ; when the contrary is evident in many wicked Persons , and even in Simon Magus the Sorcerer , who was baptized and yet wicked ; and wanting the Gift and Baptism of the Holy Ghost , would have bought it for Mony , Acts 8. 2. It also supposes all to be void of Grace , and of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost , and of the Promises , who are not baptized with Water ; consequently , that many thousands are Damned because they are not so baptized : Which is highly uncharitable . 3. We deny that by Water-Baptism Men are baptized either into Christ's Death , Body or Church ; or that 't is a Seal or Pledge of Grace : For 't is by one Spirit that true Believers are baptized unto Christ , and into Christ's Death , and into One Body ; there being One Faith and One Baptism , which is that of the Spirit 's , which is the Soul 's saving Baptism , typified by that of Water . See 1 Cor. 12. 13. Rom. 6. 3 , 4. Gal. 3. 27. Ephes. 4. 5. 1 Pet. 3. 21. In the next place we may observe , this censorious , uncharitable Man will not allow Christ's Commission , Mat. 28 ▪ 19. To intend spiritual Baptism , or the Baptism of the Holy Ghost ; because he saith , Christ only is he who could baptize with the Holy Ghost . To say that Man could bestow God ( which the Holy Ghost is ) is the highest Blasphemy , p. 203 , 204. And further to aggravate the Matter against us , he saith , If the Quakers Interpretation of Mat. 28. 19. do hold , it will follow that the Apostles and their Successors , have power to baptize with the Holy Ghost ; which is Blasphemy . Reply , He is highly mistaken in his superlative Charge of Blasphemy in this Case ; for if our Interpretation of the Text does hold , That Christ's Apostles and Ministers had Power given them by him ( being present with them even in his own Work ) to baptize with the Spirit , as well as to convert Men to God ; then our Interpretation isd not Blasphemy , because it holds . This severe Judge against us is quite out here : For tho' Christ be the great and efficient Cause both of giving and baptizing with the Spirit , yet his true Ministers , who were indued with his divine Power , were instrumental in his Work of baptizing with the Spirit , yea , and of ministring the Spirit , and he was with them in his own Work ; Lo , I am with you always to the end of the World , saith he ; What for ? To enable them to baptize with Water . No , that many can do without him , or the least sense of his Presence ; but lo Christ was with them to impower them to Go teach all Nations , baptizing them into the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost . It is not Go teach , and then baptize them with Water ; but Go teach all Nations , baptizing them , &c. There was a divine and spiritual Baptism , immediately attending ( and present with ) their Ministry , ( and it was to such as were docible too , and not to Infants who are not capable of Teaching ; ) and this spiritual Presence of Christ and his Baptism , accompanying their Ministry , is evident according to St. Peter's own Relation , Acts 11. 15 , 16. And AS I began to speak , the Holy Ghost fell on them that heard , even as upon us at the beginning . Then I remembred the Word of the Lord , how he said , John baptized with Water , but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost . What 's more plain , than that here was Teaching and Baptizing with the Holy Ghost , accompanying his Ministry ? Query , But were Christ's Apostles instrumental in ministring the Spirit ? Yes , they being Ministers of the Spirit , and not of the Letter . See Gal. 3. 2. Received ye the Spirit by the Works of the Law , or by the hearing of Faith preached ? And ver . 5. He therefore that ministreth to you the Spirit , and worketh Miracles among you , doth he it through the Works of the Law , or by the hearing of Faith preached ? Their Speech and Preaching being not in the enticing Words of Man's Wisdom , but in plain Evidence of the Spirit and of Power , that the Faith of the Hearers might not stand in the Wisdom of Men , but in the Power of God , 1 Cor. 2. 4 , 5. For ( said he ) our Gospel was not unto you in Word only , but also in Power , and in the Holy Ghost , and in much Assurance , 1 Thes. 1. 5. But contrarywise , this imposing Judge has promoted Water-Baptism above the spiritual , powerful Ministry of the Gospel . He 'll have the spiritual Baptism to go along with that of Water , duly administred and received ( as he saith p. 205. ) But by no means will he allow the spiritual Baptism to go along with the Gospel Ministry or Teaching , as commanded Mat. 28. 19. No by no means , that he deems Blasphemy ; which bewrays his no small Ignorance both of the Scriptures and of the Power of God and true Gospel-Ministry in this case ; and therefore he 'll not allow Inward Baptism to supersede the Outward : Though John Baptist , who had a peculiar Commission for the Outward , allowed it , he preferred and exalted Christ's Baptism above his own , saying , He must increase , but I must decrease , John 3. 30 I indeed baptize you with Water unto Repentance , ( or amendment of Life ) but he that cometh after me is mightier than I , whose Shoes I am not worthy to bear ; he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with Fire , Mat. 3. 11. Mark 1. 8 , Luke 3. 16. John 1. 26 , 27. That John as to this his outward Ministry of Baptism should decrease , implies not an immediate or present end thereof , upon the entrance of Christ's Dispensation or Baptism , but that John's should gradually decrease and wear out as Christ's Ministry and Baptism do encrease and grow , as the Heat of Fire or Sun dries up the Water , and causes it to decrease by Degrees , and not suddenly all at once . For John and his Ministry being of great esteem with many both Jews and Greeks ( no doubt ) his Baptism was condescended unto and allowed , when the Apostles were gathering divers of the Churches of Christ to a higher Ministry . And that this of John's Baptism was an Act of Condescention and not of Commission to the Apostles , Paul is very plain in this case , 1 Cor. 1. 14 , 15 , 16. after he saith , I thank God that I baptized none of you , but Crispus and Gaius , lest any should say that I had baptized in my own Name . I baptized also the Houshold of Stephanus , &c. He gives a more general Reason for his thanking God he baptized no more , ver . 17. For Christ sent me NOT to baptize , but to preach the Gospel , &c. And doubtless Paul's Commission from Christ was as large and extensive as any of the Apostles had ; therefore their Commission in Mat. 28. 19 was not to baptize with Water , but with the Spirit , wherein their Gospel Ministry came . His supposing that If the inward Baptism must supersede the Outward , then must Inward Teaching , p. 203. This supposes the outward Baptism of equal Authority with Teaching or Preaching the Gospel , and as necessary to continue , which we do not believe ; yet we deny not but the inward and immediate Teaching of the Holy Spirit is more excellent and permanent than the Outward , as the Holy Spirit is the Original and Spring from whence the true outward Ministry arises and flows , and unto which it leads ; and the more People come to know an Introversion and joining of their Minds to the Inward , the less need they 'll have of the Outward , though we bless God for both . But how proves this Adversary , That the visible Representation of the Lord's death , by the Bread broken and the Wine poured forth , and also Water-Baptism , are the Body or outward part of Religion which ( he saith ) the Devil has stolen from us ; so that the Soul soon disappeared , and left a noisome Carcass of Religion ? p. 209 , 210. What a strange , confused Whimsie is this ? How has the Devil stolen from them the Body of Religion , and left a noisome Carcass behind ? 'T is more likely that he has stolen away the Soul of Religion from them , or rather their Minds from it ; and left them only a Carcass behind● who are so much doting about and even idolizing the Shadow ( which is far short of the Body of true Religion ) and neglecting the Life , Soul and Substance thereof ; so that their outward Observations are dead , empty and fruitless , as those Observers are who are void of Christian Humility , Love or Charity . Those repeated known Falshoods , 1. That Christ's outward dying and shedding of his Blood , many of the Quakers have turn'd to mean nothing but his spiritual Suffering within us , &c. 2. To spiritualize AWAY the literal Humanity and Sufferings of Christ , p. 208 , 209. These Falshoods being fully answer'd and denied by us already , we need but persist in our Negation thereof . To conclude this Head of Baptism with an Argument or two from the Terms of the Commission , Mat. 28. Go teach all Nations , baptizing them in the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost . Arg. 1. If the Commission intended baptizing them with Water , then the Apostles must have followed and used the Terms of the Commission in the Execution thereof , to manifest their Authority for it . But they did not follow nor use the Terms of the Commission in baptizing with Water ; therefore , that Baptism was not intended in the Commission . The first part of the Argument is undeniable , from the Sanction and Authority of the Commission it self , which is expresly , Go teach all Nations , baptizing them in ( or into ) the Name of the Father , and of the Son and Holy Ghost . The second part of the Argument is prov'd by the following . Arg. 2 ▪ Christ's Apostles and Ministers did Teach and Preach in the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost ; but they did not Baptize with Water in the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost ; Therefore baptizing with Water was not intended in that Commission . The second Proposition is proved by their baptizing only in the Name of the Lord , or in the Name of the Lord Jesus , when they baptized with Water as John did . We do not find in all the Acts or other Scripture , that the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , were used by any of the Apostles of Christ in baptizing with Water . Let him peruse W. DELL's 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Or , The Doctrin of Baptisms ; and T. Lawson's 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Or , A Treatise concerning Baptisms : Whereunto is added , A Discourse concerning the Supper , Bread and Wine , called the Communion . To his 15th Sect. Concerning the Satisfaction of Christ. Herein ( he saith ) the Quakers are direct Socinians ; for they positively deny the Satisfaction . Here he stumbles at the Threshold again ; this is a positive Untruth in Fact. They are neither Socinians , nor do they deny the Satisfaction of Christ it self ; for God was ever well pleased and so satisfied in his dear , innocent Son , but never with Sinners continuing in their Sins . That therefore which we deny , is the Vnscriptural , Sin-pleasing and Sinner-soothing Notions of our former Adversaries about it , as that of Christ suffering under Vindictive Justice , from the Father , and making such a rigid and strict Satisfaction and Payment in our Stead ; thereby to acquit and justifie the guilty Offender , though persisting in Sin all his Days . This Notion of Satisfaction , as severely and rigidly stated , as vindictive upon the dear Son of God , and thus indulging to Sinners , both the Quakers , and even a Bishop of the Church of England , have opposed . 'T is also such a Notion of a rigid Satisfaction and strict Payment , held as a Notion of Law , in the strictest and severest Sense , that W. P. opposeth God's Compassion unto , in pardoning Iniquity , passing by Transgression and Sin , and forgiving our Trespasses ( which we ever own to be for Christ's sake , but upon true Faith and Repentance ) from these Scriptures , Mica 7. 18. Mat. 6. 12 , 14. & ch . 18 ▪ Therefore this Adversary mistakes and misrepresents W. P. in this Point , as blaspheming and arguing against the Satisfaction of Christ , p. 212 , 213. when he argues against that kind of Satisfaction held ( as a rigid Notion of Law ) that admits not of Forgiveness of Sins past ; which we consess Christ's Sufferings and Sacrifice has made way for , upon true Repentance on the Offenders part , which Christ's great Sufferings ( under the Burthen of the World's Iniquities ) do call for , and require universally of them . And as to the Praise of the great Love and Grace of God to Mankind , we must confess , that it was by the same Grace Christ tasted Death for every Man , and was really an Offering and a Sacrifice of a sweet smelling Savour to God , Ephes. 5. 2. and our only Mediator ; and in that Sense sincerely own what was really his Satisfaction to the Father , to stay the Execution of his Wrath and obtain our Pardon , giving us Repentance by his Light and Grace in our Hearts , yet such a kind of rigid Satisfaction and strict Payment to vindictive or revenging Justice , as if God poured out his just Indignation or Wrath ( merited by Sinners ) upon his innocent Son ( as some of our Adversaries have affirmed no less . ) This we confess we cannot reconcile either to God's divine Justice or Mercy , or to Christ's Mediation and Intercession for Transgressors . And little short of this , is our present Adversary's Notion , That Justice cannot remit the least Farthing , else it were not Justice ; speaking of divine Justice even of God , as being not only just , but Justice it self in the Abstract , the highest and most adequate Notion of Justice , p. 214. All which duly considered , borders upon the most rigid and extream Notion of Satisfaction ; as if divine Justice ( i. e. God himself in his Sense ) could not remit the least Farthing , but Christ must strictly pay every Farthing of the Debt of Offenders ; whereas there is a divine Justice or Righteousness ( that 's truly Evangelical ) which is declared in the Forgiveness of Sins that are past , through the forbearance of God , Rom. 3. 25. and ver . 26. to shew at this time his Righteousness ; that he might be Just , and the Justifier of him that believeth in Jesus . It was for this end that God set forth his Son Jesus Christ , to be a Propitiation through Faith in his Blood , to declare his Rightoousness for the remission of Sins past , &c. Wherefore the Quakers do not make one of God's Attributes fight with or conquer the other , nor one to subdue and beat down the other ; or his Justice to quit the Field to his Mercy ; as is ignorantly and unjustly suggested , to make us guilty of great Nonsense and Blasphemy , p. 214 , 215 , 216. For all God's Attributes in himself are in Concord , Union and Harmony ; and in his Creatures concur and agree , in order to its Reconcilation to himself ; as when he brings Man to taste of his Justice and Displeasure for Sin , it 's still in Mercy , to humble him by his Chastisement and Judgment unto Repentance , that he may find Mercy , so as Judgment and Mercy may meet in the same Soul. And God's Wisdom is truly magnified in finding out the means of our Redemption , by our great and only Mediator Jesus Christ , through his Mediation , Suffering , Sacrifice and Attonement ▪ and his Goodness and Mercy are equally magnified , in affording those means : But this proves not that adequate Satisfaction to vindictive Justice , which our Adversaries have contended for . And tho' we sincerely own Jesus Christ as we ought to do , both for our Example , Intercessor , Light and Teacher ; yet this is not all our Notion , or rather Knowledge , wherein we receive him ; neither do we in these , deny the necessity of his Death , or exclude any rational account thereof , as is unduly supposed , p. 216. For there was great reason for Christ's Death and Sacrifice for Sinners ( because all in Adam were dead and under Condemnation ) that they might live by and unto him , so as to be truly capable of really knowing and owning Christ Jesus , in Spirit , Life and Power ; and in all his Offices and Works , both as King , High priest and Prophet , our great Mediator , Example , Captain , Leader ; Light and Law-giver . But to draw towards a Conclusion of this point of Satisfaction , seeing 't is so numbly and impertinently stated by our present Antagonist , let us observe a little further how rigidly and severely he states it , to the Dishonour of God , divine Justice it self , and his beloved Son. He first puts the Queston . What room then is there for God's Mercy ? If he be all Justice , where is his Mercy ? Then he Answers : God's Attributes do not fight or contradict one another , they magnifie and exalt one another . ( True thus far ; but how ? ) Thus God's Justice is magnified , in that it exacts full and adequate Satisfaction , paid to God's Justice for our Sins , in the Sacrifice and Death of Christ ; which because of his divine Nature , was full and adequate Satisfaction . And by his humane Nature , the Satisfaction was paid by the same Nature , which offended , p. 214 , 215. All which considered , this is to assert Satisfaction as a Notion of Law ( as Dr. Owen call'd it ) in the highest , rigid and most severe Sense exacted ▪ that any of the Prebyterians , &c. have asserted it . And to save us the Labour of drawing the Consequences and Answers here , we may here ( I hope without Offence ) give him a Recitation of a more ingenuous Person 's Answer ( and Objection against this Notion ) than himself , namely , Dr. Stilling fleet , ( since Bishop of Worcester ) in his Discourse concerning the true Reason of the Sufferings of Christ ; pages 269 , 270. Printed 1669. Out of which take the following Discourse , viz. The state of the Controversy hath been rendred more obscure by the Mistakes of some , who have managed it with greater Zeal than Judgment ; they have shot over their Adversary's Heads , and laid their own more open to Assaults . It is easie to observe , That most of Socinus his Arguments are levelled against an Opinion , which few who have considered those things do maintain , and none need to think themselves obliged to do it ; which is , That Christ paid a proper and rigid Satisfaction for the Sins of Men , considered under the Notion of Debts , and that he paid the very same which we ought to have done ; which in the Sense of the Law is never called Satisfaction , but strict Payment . Against this Socinus disputes , from the impossibility of Christ's paying the very same that we were to have paid , because our Penalty was eternal Death . And that as the consequence of inherent Guilt , which Christ neither did nor could undergo . If a Mediator could have paid the same , then the Gospel had not been the bringing in of a better Covenant , but a performance of the old , p. 271. But if there be a Relaxation or Dispensation of the first Law , then it necessarily follows , that what Christ paid was not the very same which the first Law required ; for what need of that , when the very same was paid that was in the Obligation ? But if it be said , That the Dignity of the Person makes up what wanted in the kind or degree of Punishment ; this is a plain Confession , that it is not the same , &c. Besides , if the very same had been paid in the strict Sense , there would have followed A Deliverance , ipso facto , for the Release immediately follows the Payment of the same ; and it had been Injustice to have required any thing further in order to the Discharge of the Offender , when strict and full Payment had been made of what was in the Obligation . But we see that Faith and Repentance , and the Consequences of those Two are made Conditions on our parts , in order to the enjoying the Benefit of what Christ hath procured , so that the Release is not immediate upon the Payment , &c. P. 272. We are to consider that these very Persons assert , That Christ paid all for us , and in our Name and Stead , so that the Payment by Christ was by a Substitution in our room : And if he paid the same which the Law required , the Benefit must immediately accrue to those in whose Name the Debt was paid ; for what was done in the Name of another , is all one to the Creditor as if it had been done by the Debtor himself . But above all things it is impossible to reconcile the freeness of Remission with the full Payment , &c. Neither will it serve to say , That though it was not free to Christ , yet it was to us , for the Satisfaction and Remission must respect the same Person ; for Christ did not pay for himself , but for us ; neither could the Remission be to him , &c. It is impossible the same Debt should be fully paid and freely forgiven , much less will it avoid the Difficulty in this Case to say , That it was a refusable Payment ; for it being supposed to be the very same , it was not in Justice refusable , &c. p. 173. But this whole Opinion is built upon a Mistake , That Satisfaction must be the Payment of the very same ; which while they contend for , they give our Adversaries too great advantage , and make them think they triumph over the Faith of the Church , when they do it only over the Mistake of some particular Persons . But the Foundation of this Mistake lies in the Consideration of Punishment , under the Notion of Debts ; and That Satisfaction therefore must be by strict Payment in Rigor of Law. But how great that Mistake is , will appear in the subsequent Discourse . Thus far the Citation . The subsequent Discourse he mentions , is from p. 273 , 274. to the end of the said Discourse of the Sufferings of Christ. Now I would advise our Accuser to compare his Notion of a full and adequate Satisfaction paid to God's Justice ( which he has told us cannot remit the least Farthing ) with the aforesaid Discourse , and then see how he 'll reconcile his Notion thereunto . In Sect. 16. Concerning the Holy Trinity , he saith : The Quakers and Socinians acknowledge a Three , but deny a Trinity ; which is to confess the same Thing in English , and to deny it in Latin ; for Trinitas is only Latin for Three . He mistakes the Quakers : They do not deny the Three either in Latin or English , but really own the holy , divine Three in Heaven ; tho' their being rendred distinct and separate Persons , by some of our former Adversaries , we have conscientiously questioned , as unscriptural Terms . Our Adversary adds , They cannot tell what Three they are , if not Three Persons , p. 219. This is a Mistake ; we can safely tell what to call them in Scripture Language : That they are Three that bear Record , or Three witnessing , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( i. e. Witnesses ) in Heaven , the Father , the Word and the Holy Ghost , and these Three are One , John 1. 5. These are the Father , Son and Holy Spirit , which are essentially One , or One in the Divine Being . Our Adversary further saith : The Quakers , who own the Divinity of Christ , are under greater Difficulties than the Socinians , who deny the Divinity of Christ , p. 219. 'T is well he now grants the Quakers own the Divinity of Christ : But how well this agrees with much of his Book against us , let the serious Reader judge . And we know no Difficulties we are under herein : The Man imagins , and would obtrude Difficulties upon us , from his own Terms , which are none of ours ; as that there is but One Person in the Godhead ; which are none of our Words . Much less his Muggletonian Consequence , That God died , and that Christ was his own Father to whom he pray'd upon the Cross. We know no real occasion given by the Quakers , for him to draw such Absurdities upon them , or to be afraid of such Distinctions and Salvo's at the bottom of the Quaker-pretences , as impertinently he prates against them , exposing his pretended Fears instead of Proofs . And what if G. F. opposed Chr. Wade's calling The Holy Ghost a Person ? And if he said , The Scriptures do not tell the People of Three Persons , & c ? And yet confessing the Father , Son and Holy Spirit to be always One ? Does it follow , That the Quakers do not acknowledge that there were Three in Heaven before Christ was born , as ( he saith ) it seems ? p. 220. And then to aggravate the Matter against G. F. That he means One Person , as Muggleton does , p. 220. What if the Quakers think the Term Three Persons , too low an Epithite or Character to put upon the most Glorious , Blessed Three that bear Record in Heaven ? Can they be to blame herein ? When they aim at giving more Honour to them , in a true Scripture sense , than they think the Term Persons imports , yet still owning the Holy , Divine Three in Heaven , and that they were before Christ was born ; contrary to what 's unduly suggested against us . For the Father , the Word and Holy Spirit , were concerned both in Divine Wisdom , Power and Goodness , in forming , preserving and governing both the Old Creation and the New ; By the Word of the Lord were the Heavens made , and all the Host of them by the Spirit of his Mouth , Psal. 33. 6. So here 's the Divine , Holy Three forming and compleating the first Creation . And the Gospel was commanded to be preached in the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , that Men might truly believe and know the Work of God by his dear Son and Holy Spirit , unto their everlasting Salvation , Peace and Comfort . For God so loved the World , that he hath given his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting Life , John 3. 16. And Jesus answered and said , If any Man love me he will keep my Word , and my Father will love him ; and we will come unto him , and will dwell with him , John 14. 23. And ver . 26. The Comforter , which is the Holy Ghost , whom the Father will send in my Name , he shall teach you all things , and bring all things to your remembrance , which I have told you . And Ch. 15. 26. But when the Comforter shall come , whom I will send unto you from the Father , even the Spirit of Truth , which proceedeth of the Father , he shall testifie of me . And 1 Joh. 4. 13 , 14. Hereby know we that we dwell in him , and he in us , because he hath given us of his Spirit . And we have seen and do testifie , That the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the World. All which may evince how scripturally we own a Trinity , or Holy Three in the Deity . Our Accuser tells of what unimaginable Excesses Enthusiasm may drive Men to ; and that all should beware of that desperate Shelve , upon which both our Church and State have suffered miserable Shipwreck , p. 221 , 222. Here he disparages his own Church , whereby we may beware of embarking in such a ●raz'd , wreck'd Vessel , as here he represents her . He excepts against the Words not distinct , from which G. F. intends , in a sort of common Acceptation , That the Son is not divided or separate from the Father , p. 222 , 223 , 224. Tho' 't is true in one Sense , the Father , Son and Holy Ghost are not essentially distinct as to their divine Being , which is but One , they are but One God ; but in respect to their Properties of Relation , as Father , Son and Holy Ghost , as such they are distinct ; but not divided nor separate , either in themselves or Work of the Old or New Creation ; yet not Three Gods , nor Three distinct Cre●tors , but One God , and One Creator . Passing by divers Impertinencies and Absurdities under this Head , to conclude , We know no People professing a Deity in Christendom , that more sincerely and livingly believe and confess a most glorious Scripture-Trinity ( or Holy Three ) the Father , the Word ( or Son ) and Holy Ghost , than we the People called Quakers do believe and confess ; to the Praise and Glory of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost . Our Accuser's 17th Sect. Concerning the Divinity and Incarnation of Christ , is full of Falshoods , Perversions and Misconstructions . 1. He begins with this Falshood , viz. The Quakers Heresie in this is taken from the Socinians : They say , Christ took Flesh ; but no otherwise , as they explain it , than as Angels assumed Bodies , &c. Which is notoriously false against the Quakers , who confess and believe , That Christ , the Word , took real Flesh , a real Body , and not a meer Apparition , nor a Fantastical Body ; and so they have often declared both in Print , and Preaching . 2. That they allow ( not always ) that Christ did inspire the Person of that Man Jesus , in an higher measure than other Men. False and perverse again : God did inspire the Man Christ Jesus higher than all other Men ; he received the Spirit not by measure , but in fulness ; he was anointed with the Oil of Gladness above all his Fellows : All other Men , even the best , are inspired only measurably . This is always allowed by us . 3. False again , That they deny any proper Incarnation of Christ ; that is , that he was made Flesh. For the Word was made Flesh , John 1. 14. And he took not upon him the Nature of Angels , but the Seed of Abraham ; and part of the same Flesh and Blood which the Children had , Heb. 2. 14 , 16. and Christ Jesus is one entire Christ and Saviour . We do not divide nor confound Jesus and Christ , nor take the Name Christ to our selves , but Christians , as anointed by him , and Partakers of Christ , and only so far have an Interest in his Name , Power and Life . 4. False also , That they say not that Christ did carry up ( i. e. the Body of Jesus ) with him into Heaven . Whose Body then but his own , when he was visibly seen to ascend , so as a Cloud received him out of their sight ? Acts 1. 9 , 10 , 11. 5. Seeing we confess , That Christ is now in Heaven ; when did ever we refuse to confess , that there is any Jesus now in Heaven , or any elsewhere ? This is an absurd Accusation , as if we divided Jesus and Christ , or denied Jesus to be Christ ; which is far from us . 6. That they know not what 's become of him , ( Jesus ) is also false . He ascended far above all Heavens , that he might fill all things ; and we know him in us by his Spirit . 7. That they say there 's no Christ without them ; is false also . 8. No other Christ but what 's within them . There 's not Two Christs : 'T is one and the same Christ that is without us and within us , tho' in different manners . 9. That they allow him no other Body but their own ; is false . They allow him his own proper glorious Body , in which he is their Head , and they united to him ; so as the Body ( in general or comprehensively ) is but one Body , even so is Christ , 1 Cor. 12. 12. 10. That they spiritualize ALL his Life and Death to his spiritual Living and Dying within them ; which is a reiterated Falshood . The same Christ that was crucified in the Flesh without , is spiritually within known in true Believers : 'T is not another Christ , but another Manifestation of one and the same Christ. 11. Our Friend G. F. ( in the places impertinently and perversly quoted , Gr. Myst. p. 210 , 211 , 254. ) does not dispute against saying , That the Man Christ that was crucified , his Body is now in the Presence of his Father : But against their saying , Christ is absent from the Saints and People ; and against their professing a Christ without them and another within them , ( i. e. Two Christs ) There being but one Lord Jesus Christ , 1 Cor. 8. 6. 12. 'T is neither impious nor blasphemous in the Quakers to affirm , That the One Lord Jesus Christ does influence , inspire and enlighten us by his Life and Spirit in our Hearts , ( this is the true state of the Case ) to guide us ; and that he is the only Christ and Saviour that so doth ; and that Christ , and his Spirit and Light , are not so divided : Being still but One Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ , who suffered for us , and reigneth both in Heaven and Earth , in which he hath all Power committed to him . 13. Our Adversary refers to one Rob. Gordon's Authority against us , in his pretended Testimony to the true Saviour , or Jesus of Nazareth , printed 1670. In which there are many Abuses , Misrepresentations and Contradictions answered and detected by G. Keith and G. Whitehead , in their Book , Entituled , The Light of Truth triumphing over Darkness , Ignorance , Error and Envy . G. Keith then vindicated us and our Principles against R. G. and other Opposers ; however he be now declined and turned against us , he has not retracted his Answer to the said R. Gordon , whose Authority we deny , and it will not support our present Opposer against us . 14. What he quotes of S. E. 's Challenge , What was said of Christ , the World was made by him , and the World knew him not , so it may be said of this true Prophet G. F. p. 232. We the Quakers , so called , disown the Comparison , any otherwise than as it relates to the World knew him not , for so far Christ himself allows his own , They are not of the World , as I am not of the World , John 17. And the World knoweth you not , because it knoweth not him , 1 John 3. 1. 15. His repeated false Charges of making our selves equal with God , and preferring our selves before the Man Christ , making him and all he did and suffered to be BVT a Type or Shaedow of what is really performed in us by the true Christ , p. 233. These Falshoods and Perversions are answered , denied and detected , partly before in this , and in our Just Enquiry , and also in an Answer to Dr. Ford , Entituled , The Christianity of the People commonly called Quakers , &c. Some of his other Falshoods he quotes and credits out of R. Gordon , are viz. 16. Crying up a Light within , to cry down the Blood without . 17. To preach him ( Christ ) as an Example , to cast out the Attonement . 18. Denying him to have any real , outward , individual , glorified , bodily Existence in his Fathers Kingdom . 19. That the preaching of a Christ without them , they call old beggarly Stuff . Adding viz. 20. And those who formerly preacht him as without us ( though Prophets or Apostles ) to be low and carnal in their Day , according to their Cant , which he there repeats , p. 235. These foul and odious Lies , Calumnies and Perversions he credits and repeats against us , which we utterly deny ( and his Authority also quoted by him ) as malicious and injurious . 21. His next Authority against us is T. C. i. e. Tho. Crisp his Animadvers . and F. Bugg's Quakerism Withering ; both which are fully answered , and their manifold Falshoods and Calumnies justly detected and reprehended , particularly in G. W.'s Answer , Entituled , The Counterfeit Convert , and T. C. by Edward Pennington . As to those offensive Words Your carnal Christ , your imagined God , we do not affect the Terms , neither are they proper to the true Christ ▪ or omnipresent God. 22. In p. 236. the Snake unfairly cites G. F. in two places , Gr. Myst. p. 250. leaving out the very reason of his Reflection upon Chr. Wade , his recording himself a Reprobate , which was his Ignorance of the Mystery of Christ within him . And Gr. Myst. p. 183. The Imputation to a Believer is owned , and this Imputation is within ; for he that believes is born of God , and hath the Witness in himself . Abraham believed and the Romans , and to such the Imputation was spoken in the Belief , &c. All these Words left out ( as seems to us ) with design to render us as wholly denying Imputation on any account , which is a manifest Perversion ; tho' G. F. in the place cited , esteems the inward Enjoyment of Christ Jesus , and his Righteousness , to be beyond any Imputation only , in the first Belief , as true Believers , in Union with Christ , are nearer to him than when they first believed . 23. 'T is false , That the Body which Christ assumed , we do not call the Body of Christ , as a Man's Body is called his Body ; but only as when an Angel assumes a Body . For the Body which Christ assumed was his real Body , and he really suffered in it ; and therein was made a little lower than the Angels , Heb. 2 9. who were not capable of such Sufferings as his , yet he was dignified , crowned with Glory and Honour far above them . 24. Again the Snake perversly quotes , F. Bugg's New Rome Arraign'd ; That the Quakers can never call the bodily Garment , Christ ; thence inferring , His Body to be but only as a Cloak or a Garment which a Man wears , which he may throw off or put on again without any alteration in his Person or Nature , p. 237 , 238. In this he perversly strains the Simily ( a Man's Cloak has no feeling to suffer with him when he is bruised or wounded ) and he is partial still , in not taking notice of the Answer to F. Bugg even in this very Point . See Charitable Essay , p. 2. thus given , viz. As to J. P.'s Words chiefly objected , That we cannot call the Bodily Garment , Christ. The word Garment I take to be only a figurative manner of speaking , as the word Vail , which is his Flesh is , Heb. 10. 20. An Ingenuous Man would allow him his own meaning as he explains it ; namely , That we cannot call the Body ( which he took upon him ) Chiefly and in the First Place Jesus Christ. It not being first , nor the intire Christ , because he was the Son of God , and consequently Christ , before he took upon him that Body , even when God created all things by . Jesus Christ , Ephes. 3. 9. He made the Worlds by his Son , Heb. 1. 2. And after several Arguments in p. 3 , 4. proving the Divinity and Pre-existence of Christ the Son of God , before he assumed the Body , the general Consequence deduced from the Premises , is , That the Names Jesus and Christ chiefly and primarily belong to Him that took the Body , though sometimes given to each and to both . 25. False again , That the Quakers say or make the Flesh of Christ of an earthly , perishing Nature , p. 238. from F. Bugg 's , saying ( against J. P. ) That which he ( Christ ) took upon him ( i. e. his Body ) was our Garment , even the Flesh and Blood of our Nature , which IS of an earthly , perishing Nature ; falsly adding , and is perished by their Account , p. 238. Thus from Bugg 's Authority and Citation against us ; but takes no notice of the Answer in the said Charitable Essay , p. 4. in these Words , viz. He ( i. e. F. B. and now his Disciple the Author of the Snake ) hath here notoriously wronged the People called Quakers , by imposing a false Creed upon them . Where do they say , That Christ's Body either was or is of an earthly perishing Nature ? I utterly deny the Charge , and F. B. also to be our Creed-maker , Construer or Expositor , who hath unjustly inferr'd this upon us from Is. Pennington's saying , He took upon him the Flesh and Blood of our Nature , which is of an earthly perishing Nature . Whereby neither he nor the Quakers say , That Christ's Body either was or is of an earthly perishing Nature ; for his Flesh saw no Corruption , therefore did not perish ; tho' our Nature , our Flesh and Blood be of an earthly perishing Nature , so is not Christ's . I cannot rationally suppose that J. P. ever intended that Christ's Body ( which on Earth did not corrupt ) is of an earthly perishing Nature now in Heaven as ours is now on Earth ; ( take his Words also Grammatically ) for it is such an absurdity as I cannot think ever entred into Is. Pennington's Heart , being a Man both of Learning ▪ Sense and Conscience ; [ The Flesh and Blood of our Nature ] being antecedent next to [ which is of an earthly perishing Nature ] Therefore [ perishing ] appears only relative to Flesh and Blood , as 't is ours and in us , and not to Christ's Body which is incorruptible and glorious . 26. The People called Quakers neither account that the Body of Christ perished , vanished or was annihilated , as said , p. 238. but that 't was changed so as to be a glorious , celestial Body . 27. 'T is not true in his Sense , That the Quakers think that the Name of Christ does belong to every one of them , not only more than to that Body now , but as well as to it while upon the Earth ; quoting Bugg 's New Rome . Again , Doth not the Name Christ belong to the whole Body , and to every Member of the Body , as well as to the Head ? A Question , p. 27. Thus one Adversary credits and promotes the Authority of another to reproach us , without taking notice of our full Answers already given . Oh! disingenuous , as in this very Point . In the said Charitable Essay , p. 4. in these Words , viz. Object . Doth not the Name belong to the whole Body , &c. So that there are as many Christ's , by their Doctrin , as believing Quakers . Answ. No , that 's not our Doctrin ; there 's one Body , and so but one Christ , 1 Cor. 12. 12. But turn the Question into F. B.'s contrary Doctrin implied , and then 't is The Name Christ belongs not to the whole Body , Christ's Body ( i. e. his Church ) is not Anointed ; it therefore hath no right to his Name nor any Member thereof ; but then doth not this appear contrary to the Apostle's Doctrin , viz. For as the Body is one and hath many Members , and all the Members of the Body , which is one , though they be many , yet are but one Body ; even so is Christ , 1 Cor. 12. 12. The Protestant Annotations in Queen Elizabeth's Bible are , That we might be one Body with Christ , and the whole Church one Christ. And on Ephes. 1. 23. The Church is also called Christ , 1 Cor. 12. 12. ( What says our Adversary to these Annotations ? Dare he judge them horrid Blasphemy ? ) And he that establisheth us with you in Christ Jesus , and hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Anointed us , is God , 2 Cor. 1. 21. Quest. But doth not the Name belong to the whole Body ( and to every Member therein ) as well as to the Head ? Answ. 1. Not Equally , because he is the Head. 2. Not Literally to be so named , but vertually and spiritually ( i. e. as by inward Participiation ) and so truly , with respect to that divine Power and Spirit , whereby both the Head and the Body are Anointed ( and united ) and each Member partakes thereof in some measure . But Christ , the Head in all things , has the Preheminence , he was Anointed ( more eminently ) in Fulness , his Members in part or measure by the same Spirit and Power ; he was Anointed above his Fellows , implying their being anointed in degree . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Christ , signifies Anointed , as being the very Christ the only begotten Son of God , which I know no Member of his Body assumes to himself ; but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Christian , which has relation to Christ the Anointed ; for where Christ's Church , which is his Body , is said to be the Fulness of him that filleth all in all , Ephes. 1. 23. 't is not of the Church as distinctly considered from the Head ; but ( as in Union therewith ) Christ the Head is included in that Fulness , tho' his proper Existence be entire , compleat and most glorious . I think this Answer to F. Bugg , may fully Answer his Disciple the Author of the Snake . 28. From G. Fox's saying , Christ is the Elect ; our Adversary infers , And the Elect are Christ , they make them convertible Terms , p. 239. They are not so made by us nor by G. F. in the place quoted , Gr. Myst. p. 88. but the contrary ; tho' there he saith , Christ is the Elect whom God upholds ; He also saith , Christ knows his , and said he had other Sheep , and he knew All the Elect ; and who receive him and are in him , are the Elect. There 's no such Words in the place quoted as that the Elect are Christ. Thus the plain Scripture is perverted which G. F. refers to , Isa. 42. 1. 29. He again quotes Gr. Myst. p. 207. That God's Christ is not distinct from his Saints . Here the Man unfairly leaves out what follows , viz. For he is within them , their Spirits witness him , &c. Wherein 't is plain , he means Christ is not divided or separate from his Saints . He takes distinct from , in a kind of common Acceptation , for divided or separate from . Here he cavils about Words or a Mode of speaking , and then draws his hard Consequences . As 30. The grossest Absurdities , highest Blasphemies , and that G. F. could find no difference , no distinction at all betwixt Christ and himself : Which appears a perverse and presumptuous Calumny . As doth the next , 31. That All the divine Attributes should be given to G. F. as well as unto Christ ; and that G. F. does assume the Stile and Names of Christ to himself , &c. The Man here quoting his own Authority in his Sect. 5. and there F. B.'s , both which we deny . They have injuriously abused G. F. and others in this Matter , who neither calls himself The Door that ever was , nor the same Christ yesterday , to day , and for ever ; ( he speaks this of Christ , not of himself ; ) neither did the Quakers call him the Branch , the Star , &c. as Bugg and the Snake have basely asperst him and others , Sect. 5. p. 41 , 43. &c. These Calumnies and perverse Abuses are sufficiently detected in several Answers to F. Bugg , and in Just Enquiry into the Libeller's Abuse . And tho' we deny that those divine Attributes given to Christ may be given to any mortal Man , yet divers Names given to Christ are given to Saints also ; as the Son of God , the Sons of God , Luke 3. 28. John 1. 12. Rom. 8. 14 The Light of the World , John 8. 12. Mat. 5. 14. The Salt of the Earth , Mat. 5. 13. The Righteousness of God , 1 Cor. 1. 30. 2 Cor. 5. 21 ▪ Kings , Priests , Prophets , Apostles , Ministers , The Seed , The Good Seed , Anointed , Elect , given both to Christ and his faithful Followers . But it may be said , These are not all properly divine Attributes : However , they are such as are given both to Christ , and his Brethren and Members the Saints , and true Followers of God : But The Image and Glory of God , I presume will be assented to be no less than divine Attributes , or importing the same , and yet without Blasphemy or Idolatry , Man ( whose Head Christ is ) is called The Image and Glory of God , 1 Cor. 11. 7 ▪ and not in any Dishonour to Christ , though the same Epithets or Characters do properly belong to him , Heb. 1. 3. 2 Cor. 4 4. Col. 1. 15. yet given also to Man , because indued with ( or participating of ) God's Image in Christ Jesus ; but we confess some divine Attributes and Names are given , as only proper to Christ , and not to Men or Saints ; as , The Wisdom and Power of God , The Word of God , A Quickning Spirit , The only begotten Son of God , The Messiah , The very Christ , The Prince of Life and Peace ; The Mighty God , The Everlasting Father , &c. these are only intended and proper to Christ. 32. We do not find Blasphemy or Idolatry excused , or any fair pretence used for the same by W. P. in the place quoted ( i. e , 11 Ch. Of the Invalidity of John Faldoe 's Vindication ) as is defamingly alledged against him , p. 242. which is about the Soul of Man , &c. which W. P. there fully Answers . To Sect. 18. which the Author stiles , Some Remarks upon Geo. Whitehead's Creed , relating to some of the Particulars before-going . The nameless Author of the Snake in the Grass , having vented his and others Venome and great Spite against the People called Quakers in general , and divers Particulars by Name ; now , to compleat his Design of great Envy , he must put forth his Sting in the Tail of his Work , and have a fling and sit of Hissing like an angry Snake , or as one that whispers out of the Dust , Isa. 29. 4. against the said G. W. I being the Person aim'd at , may now briefly answer for Truth and for my self , as concerned . 1. The word Creed he imposes upon me : 'T was no formal Creed or Summary of our Faith , tho' real Truths by way of Positions in the affirmative , as a Christian Testimony , in direct Opposition to F. B.'s great Abuse , false Charge and Perversions , which with a negative Testimony against him therein , are both adapted to answer his own Terms , Words and Phrases , that our Testimony and Positions might be the more apparent against his Abuse and Perversions ; for I know no Adversary that I find Fault with , but I can freely and in good Conscience assert my own Sense in the Matters in Controversie , as well as oppose his , though it be not in the manner of a formal Creed , yet true in it self ; for we should have numerous Creeds , if all Positions we write in Opposition to Opposers , must be esteemed Creeds , or Summaries and Confessions of our Faith ; nevertheless , we believe what we assert and vindicate in each particular . My Accuser presently shews his Prejudice and Enmity against me without cause , As with a new Confession of Faith , in such dubious and general Terms , as may at first sight deceive the unwary Reader ; though I gave it in as plain and as much in scriptural Terms as I could , and as the Matters concerned would admit of . And I know my own Sincerity therein better than my Accuser , who insincerely calls me Honest George , whilst he is aspersing me and casting Dirt at me , as Deceiving , keeping off contradicting the Heart of the Heresie , still preserving it safe and untouch'd ; and not only so , but often with a slily , insinuated Excuse and Defence of it , p. 244. So that my confessing Jesus to be the Christ , and both his coming in the Flesh and in the Spirit , according to holy Scripture-Testimony , and also to the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament , namely , the Holy Doctrin and divine Precepts therein , as given by divine Inspiration ( on which much of my said Confession against F. Bugg depends ; ) this hath no better Acceptance or Resentment with my Accuser , than as no Contradiction to the Heart of Heresie , but as still preserving it safe and untouch'd ; and which is worse , a slily insinuated Excuse and Defence of it . Oh sad Stuff ! Whither will not Pride and Envy precipitate some Men ? What scripturally to confess Jesus Christ and the Holy Scriptures ( as above ) is this no Contradiction to Heresie ? But to preserve , excuse or defend it ? What 's Heresie than , pray ? Is it to confess Jesus Christ come in the Flesh , &c. according to holy Scripture-Testimony of him ? Oh! for shame , leave off such blind Envy and blasphemous Abuse . And now to come to the Point , How or wherein have I slily insinuated Excuse and Defence of it ( i. e. of the Heart of Hersie , as before ? ) p. 244. Thus ( saith my Accuser ) in his first Article he confesses Jesus to be the Christ , even the same Jesus Christ who was born of the Virgin Mary at Bethlehem , &c. I confess this is part of my Confession , but cannot believe this is either not contradictory to the Heart of Heresie , or that it is any Excuse or Defence of it . Nor that our confessing God or Christ to be our Light , can be any such Excuse or Defence . Neither do we attribute the Name Christ to any ( much less to every one ) of our selves , as we are often falsly accused , as here , p. 245. Whence he also most unjustly infers , That then this will appear that this Confession of Whitehead 's is a meer Fallacy , while it attributes no more to Jesus Christ than to G. W. p. 245. Which is a very foul and absurd Falshood and notorious Lie in Fact , and contradiction to my said Confession ( even so far as 't is cited by himself as before ) which is , 1. We sincerely own , profess and confess Jesus to be the Christ , even the same Jesus Christ who was born of the Virgin Mary at Bethlehem in Judea , Mat. 2. suffered Death upon the Cross without the Gates of Jerusalem , was quickened and raised again by the Power of God , and ascended into Heaven and Glory , according to the Scriptures . Now have I herein attributed no more to Jesus Christ than to my self , as he saith ? Where did I ever attribute this to my self ? Where 's the meer Fallacy ? Not in my Confession to Jesus Christ , but in this horrid Abuse and gross Perversion thereof . Did I ever say that I am Jesus Christ ? Or , that I was born of the Virgin Mary ? Or , that I suffered Death upon the Cross at Jerusalem ? &c. Oh! for shame , who cannot see such Malice and Madness as my Adversary has vented against me in this Matter ? Again , I find no Fallacy in my Confession to Christ , as without ; nor is there any , unless I had denied the Virgin Mary ( of whom Christ was born ) to be without , or Bethlehem , and Judea and Jerusalem , to be without us ; nor doth Christ , being without , prove him not to be our Light within ; for the same Christ said , I am the Light of the World ; therefore he is our Light , yea the Quakers Light ( as he calls it ) they being included in the World. Does not the Sun shine in our Houses , because the Body and Fulness of it is without them ? My Accuser quibbles and quarrels with Art. 10. of my Confession , viz. Our Ministers do not teach that the Name of Jesus and Christ belong to every Member in the Body or Church , as amply as to Christ the Head. And here he leaves out all the following explanatory part of the Article , ( as he calls it ) and scornfully descants upon the Word amply being in a different black Character , lest ( quoth he ) you should mistake and think that George was Christ as amply as Jesus . And then goes on scoffing , That was modest indeed ; but then George thou art Christ as well as Jesus , though not so amply : Which is both a false Implication , and foreign to my intention . The word amply in that place , was only used and intended in direct opposition to F. Bugg's falsly saying , The Quakers teach , That the Name Jesus and Christ belong to every Member in the Body , as amply as to Christ the Head , New Rome , Ar. p. 47. But even in the same 10 Art. quoted against me , I do not allow any Member to be called Christ , but expresly dissallow it , though I confess how Christians have some Interest in his Name , but not to be called Jesus , but Christians . The explanatory part of my Confession in the said 10th Article , disingenuously left out by this Scoffer , is in these Words , viz. But that the divine Anointing ( to which Name Christ hath relation ) virtually is in some measure or degree afforded to every Member of his Body , but not so amply as to him the Head ; nor for any Member to be called Christ , but a Christian ; because Christ received the Anointing the Holy Spirit not by measure , but in fulness ; and because he is the Head of the Body , the Church . And this very Matter is more fully explain'd in my Charitable Essay , in Answer to F. Bugg , p. 4. as before . It was far from my Thoughts or Intention to imply any such thing , as That I am Christ as well as Jesus ; for I have often written my self A Servant-of Christ ; and so I am , I humbly bless his Name that 's above every Name . Therefore I am still very unjustly accused with rank Sophistry , dodging and deluding , and casting a Mist before the Eyes of poor deluded People , or leading them into the Mystery of Iniquity , or of any Equivocating or Jesuitical Confession of Faith , as foully and unjustly accused , p. 246 , 247. I have a Conscience towards God in what I confess , and in good Conscience testifie , That thou my scornful , lurking Adversary , hast cast manifold false and gross Defamations upon me , and many others of my Christian Persuasion . And in the true Sense of Scripture , I have both confess'd Christ's coming in the Flesh , and as he the Word was made ( or took ) Flesh , Jo. 1. 14. And more than the Socinians , I do still confess , That as the reasonable Soul and Body is One Man , so He that is God and Man is One Christ. And whether this will give Satisfaction to an implacable Adversary or no , I value not ; knowing my Conscience clear in the Sight of him who judgeth righteously , which I am sure this my unjust Judge and false Accuser is not , who presently after he has stil'd me Honest George , unjustly brands me with Infamy , as Sophistry , Delusion , Depths of Satan , Mystery of Iniquity , Equivocation , Jesuitical Confession , &c. Oh! rank Malice , bitter Envy , &c. As for my Confession in the 7th Art. alledged against me , it stands good and true , viz. We own no such saying , as that the Holy Doctrin or Divine Precepts of Scripture , is either Dust , Death , or the Serpent's Meat , but truly profitable to us by the Assistance of God's Holy Spirit given to us , &c. And this was in direct opposition to F. Bugg's saying , These Quakers , who pretend to own the Precepts and Doctrin of the Bible to be holy and blessed , yet say 't is Dust and Death , the Serpent's Meat , &c. Apol. Introd . p. 18. to his New Rome . [ We do not believe any of these Quakers ever so said of the Precepts and Doctrin , nor do they own any such Saying , I wholly disown it . ] But then to beg the Question , What was it you called Dust and Serpent's Meat ? Was it nothing else but the Ink and Paper ? Did any Body ever say , That these were not Dust ? Or , Is that any part of the Controversie betwixt us ? Snake p. 249. Here he yields the Point ; he grants the Ink and Paper to be Dust. I said , Will decay and turn to Dust ; but so will not the Word , the Gospel , nor the Holy Doctrin contain'd in Scripture . And it has been confess'd by F. B. and others , That Holiness is not ascrib'd to the Paper and Ink ( or Inky Characters ) that will decay , but to the Holy Doctrin and Precepts which will not decay , but be permanent and endure , and therefore called the Holy Scriptures , with respect to the Holy Matters therein contained . That the Books and Writings in Ink and Paper will wear out , so will not the Word , is evident . Jehoiakim King of Judah , could burn Jeremiah the Prophet's Roll or Book , writ with Ink by Barach , but not the Word of the Lord , nor properly the Words thereof ; for the same Word caused all the former Words to be written again , after the Roll was burnt , Jer. 36. If then the Books , the Paper and Ink be combustible , or will decay and turn to Dust , but not the Word , nor the Doctrin ; where 's then the Controversie indeed , when the same thing is granted on both sides ? He quotes Gr. Myst. p. 302. Sect. 11. p. 146 , 147. as saying , Paper and Ink is not infallible , that will come to Dust ; unto which the Word , Christ and the Spirit is preferred , in the same place quoted . And in the said Gr. Myst. p. 78. by Letter , he there means Paper and Ink ; but the Scripture , the thing it speaks of , is spiritual , the Word is Spirit . And further , p. 127. the Scripture ( or Writing ) it self , without the Spirit that gave it forth , is a dead Letter in it self . The Spirit is that that gave forth the Scriptures . For my part , as I am not in the least conscious to my self of the least Contempt of Holy Scripture , nor yet of the Bible ; for I have always preferr'd it to all other Books extant in the World , and more affected Reading therein than any other Book , even from my Childhood ; and often bless divine Providence for preserving to us the Scriptures : So I know of none among us guilty of contemning them : Neither is what 's said , from any Contempt of Scripture , no more than it is of the Earth and the Heavens , to say , They shall wax old and perish , but the Word that made them endureth , Psal. 102. 25 , 26. Heb. 1. 11 , 12. But say what we can in this Case to clear our selves of any Contempt to the Holy Scripture , this our uncharitable Judge and Accuser will not believe us : He 's bent to asperse , he has swallow'd down so much of the soure Leaven of the Malice of a few false Brethren , Persecutors and Apostates , from whom he derives much of his Authority ; and thus scurrilously and most falsly imposes upon me , viz. And therefore George , notwithstanding all thy meally Modesty , it is ; it is indeed George , it is the very Doctrin of the Scriptures which you blaspheme as Dust , and Death , and Serpent's Meat , on purpose to bring Men off from trying your pernicious Heresies by those saecred Oracles , p. 250. This is a pernicious Abuse and Calumny , against my self and others of us ( to out-face us against our very Sense and Consciences ) and in good Conscience I testifie against it ; it never entred into my Intention or Thoughts so to blaspheme the Doctrin of the Scriptures , as to term or deem it Dust , Death or Serpent's Meat : The Lord rebuke this lying ; envious Spirit . Neither do I vilifie the written Doctrin and Precepts of God , in comparison of our New Light ( as he falsly calls it ) p. 250 , 251. but reverently esteem them : The Man makes no Conscience of defaming us . Neither do we quarrel with the Law and the Testimony , nor yet with Writing or Scripture , as 't is in Ink or Paper , but distinguish between the Writing and the Things written , which is no Contempt to either . We are thankful to Divine Providence for both the Scripture , or Writing , and the Holy Doctrin and Divine Precepts therein written ; for they testifie unto Christ our Light , and our ●ight to the Truth of them . And to what he saith , - If any do not teach the same , i. e. according to the Law and the Testimony , or written Word , it is because there is no Light in them , Isa. 8. 20. And then puts this Emphasis upon it , No Light , George ! Mark that : Your false Pretences to the Light within are here over-rul'd , p. 251. I deny that our Pretences to the Light within is either false or here over-rul'd ; if they speak not according to this Word , it is because there is no Morning to them . If he 'll see the Note from the Hebrew in some Bibles , he may see no Morning in the Margin over against no Light : Then let him Mark that . But is there no Light in the Creation before Morning , either inward or outward , pray ? Did not the Light shine in Darkness , before it shined out of Darkness ? And had not the Believers a more sure Word of Prophecy , whereunto they did well to take heed , as unto a Light shining in a dark Place , until the Day dawned and the Day-star arose in their Hearts ? 2 Pet. 1. 19. And are not many reproved by the Light them in , for telling Lies and speaking contrary to the Word ? &c. And therefore there was some true Light in them , before the Morning appeared to them . And tho' my Accuser says , These , and such-like Texts , detect and explode the miserable . Ignorance and Blasphemy of these Pretenders to Light. For which we have his own ipse dixit , and much such Raillery , but know no plain Texts of Scripture yet produced by him , that so detects us ; but his own Falshood and great Ignorance about the Light , is very apparent . Again , he falsly defames and reprobaches me , from p. 28. Of Innocency Triumphant , with excusing and justifying Diabolical Suggestions in the Quaker-Refuge ( he saith ) against the Authority of the sacred Scripture , by saying , That it questioned but some , not all , p. 252. This Accuser has a most odious , injurious course of defaming and perverting , as well as curtalizing our Words , wherein he has taken part with his famous Author F. Bugg , to whom the Answer was given , on which he grounds his black Charge against me , Of justifying Diabolical Suggestions , &c. In which Answer I expresly declare thus , viz. His Accusation that the Quakers insinuate , in a Book called The Quakers Refuge , That What the true Prophets spake was false , and What the false Prophets spoke was true , p. 47. New Rome Vnm. p. 23. We disown these Expressions , and I think they are not duly inferred from the said Book , questioning whether Some Words were not spoken by wicked Men , some by wise Men , ill applied ; some by good Men , ill expressed , &c. Now , at my saying , Yet this questioned but of some Words in Scri●ture , not all ; he takes occasion to Rail fearfully against me , as a Justifier of Diabolical Suggestions . When my Answer was not with the least intent to oppose or lessen the Authority of the Sacred Scriptures ; but in direct opposition to F. Bugg's Calumny , in these general , odious and false Expressions , viz. That the Quakers insinuate , that What the true Prophets spake , was false . Which Expression we utterly deny , as both in themselves grosly false , against the true Prophets , and falsly charged on the Quakers , to defame them . And as to the Questions cited out of the Quak. Refuge , at which Offence is taken , 1. They are not mine . 2. I do not believe they are the Author 's of that Quak Refuge , tho' cited by him . 3. It is apparent he does not espouse them as his own Judgment , nor make them the Matter in that present Controversie , nor resolve them in the Affirmative ; but seems to recite and wave them , as Originally proceeding from some other Person , as I understand . The furthest that can be drawn from my said Answer to F. B. that may seem offensive ( which I should be sorry for , if 't were really so ) is my seeming to grant the Question , That in some Words some true Prophets were mistaken . And if this be made an Offence , I think 't is no real one , for I designed none : However , I still confess , I believe the Record of Scripture to be true . Good Men , and some true Prophets also , have been and may be mistaken in some things , and have had their Weaknesses and Failings truly recorded in Scripture ; and also their Deliverances , for good Ends and Admonition to others . Was not Samuel a good Man and a Prophet , and yet mistaken , when he took Eliab for the Lord 's Anointed ? 1 Sam. 16 , 6. 7. And in the Argument upon Job in the ancient Bible , is marked , That Job maintaineth a good Cause , but handleth it evil . Again , his Adversaries have an evil Matter , but they defend it craftily . Moreover , he was assured that God had not rejected him ; yet through his great Torments and Afflictions , he burst forth into many Inconveniences both of Words and Sentences . See the Argument at large . And was not the Prophet Elijah mistaken when he thought himself alone , or none in Israel but himself , that was zealous for the Lord God of Hosts ? But what saith the Answer of God unto him ? I have reserved unto my self seven thousand Men , that have not bowed the knee to Baal , 1 King. 19. 10 , 18. Rom. 11. 3 , 4. And to say but little of the Old Prophet that persuaded the Young Prophet , contrary to the Word of the Lord , 1 King. 13. I could instance Jonas , David , and several others that were good Men , who had some Weaknesses and Mistakes in Words and Actions , yet the Lord was good to them and helped them , according to the Integrity of their Hearts towards him . And these Things being truly recorded in Scripture for Instruction and Admonition , we truly esteem the Scripture-Record thereof . And even where the Words , Lies , Blasphemies and Actions of the Devil , wicked Men and Persecutors , and the Judgments which befel them , are recorded in the Scriptures , we own the Record or History thereof to be true , and highly esteem it for Instruction and Warning to Men. And to distinguish between the Words of God in Scripture , and the Words of the Devil , is but what the Scripture it self doth , which can be no Contempt to it ; for I have known some stumbled , by some of the Priests making no distinction , but calling all that 's written in Scripture the Word of God ; as one that was the Mayor of Thetford near 40 Years ago , told me , That a Priest wanting Induction into the vacant Benefice , and preaching there for Approbation , took his Text out of the Words wherewith the Devil tempted Christ , Mat. 4. And bidding the People hearken to the Word of God , as they should find it written in such a Chapter and Verfe ; whereupon this Person that told me of it was so offended , that he would not give his Voice to chuse the said Priest , because he had told them , That was the Word of God , which was the Words of the Devil . Now let none be so disingenuous as to take this as in Contempt of Holy Scripture , Doctrin or Precepts therein ; for where either the Words , Blasphemies , wicked Actions or Persecutions of the Devil or Men , are therein mentioned , the Record thereof is true , and in Testimony against them , and the intent of such Record holy , just and good . Farther my Accuser tells me , Nor is my Salvo more ingenuous in the Eleventh Article . And why so ? It is really , say I , contrary to our Faith and Principle , to make Christ Jesus himself Only a Figure , a Veil or Garment , p. 254. Which was in direct opposition to his Author F. Bugg 's falsly saying , The Quakers would make Christ Only a Figure , a Veil , a Garment , implied by way of Question , p. 58. New Rome Ar. Here he quarrels with the word Only as with the word Amply , and accuseth me with Equivocating , and that this is but a Negative Confession : But really George ( quoth he ) this is not re-assuming your Christian Testimony in the Affirmative , as thou didst promise , &c. still hiding your self in the Dark in Negatives : But we would know affirmatively , what it is you do profess ; and this thou didst promise , and this thou hast not perform'd , p. 255 , 256. Here he accuseth me with breach of Promise ; but very falsly , as in the said 11th Article is plain , that my Confession of Christ Jesus himself , is not only Negative but Affirmative , namely , He being the Substance and End of all Figures , Types and Shadows . Is not this Affirmative , pray ? And as remote from Truth is his accusing the Quakers Books of calling Christ Jesus a Type or Figure of their Light within , p. 263 , 264. I know no such Books of the Quakers that so call Christ Jesus A Type of our Light within , but that he is our Light , which hath inlighten'd us among the rest of Mankind . It 's implied by way of Question , That Christ cloathed himself in Flesh and Blood , and that he took Flesh , &c. for so ( quoth he ) it may be said that our Soul is cloathed with our Body , as with a Garment or Veil . It is not Words ; but the meaning that we contend about , saith he , p. 257. We know best our own Meaning , being well satisfied that 't is according to Holy Scripture . Where 's then the difference ? He then quarrels with our Meaning , not with the Words here , but elsewhere ; he doth as his Author F. Bugg has done with the words Veil and Garment , in J. P.'s Question to Professors : But this Author yields the Point , he assents to both ; As our Soul is clothed with our Body , as with a Garment or Veil ; and so of Christ. Which warrants J. P.'s Question against his Author F. B. and himself , at least so far as not to make it a Subject of any further Contention against us . Again , my Accuser brings a heavy , black Charge upon me in these Words , viz. In this same 11th Article we are now upon , after your full and Affirmative Declaration ( before he would have it Negative ) you subborn Two Texts as Favourers of your damnable Heresie before-told , yet ( say you , slily ) his Flesh was called the Veil , Heb. 10. And he took upon him the form of a Servant , and was made like unto Men , and was found in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Shape or Figure of a Man , Phil. 2. 6 , 7. And then exclaims , Ah George ! George ! I could forgive thee any thing but this : What ▪ put upon us at this rate ! It seems my citing those Two Texts , and alledging them to prove that the word Veil was applied to Christ's Flesh which he took upon him , and the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Shape or Figure of a Man , to the form of his Manhood or outward Man , tho' I intended no other than that , without the least Contempt to Christ : Such Words might be used as they had been by some of our Friends . For this it seems I have committed such a heinous and unpardonable Crime or Sin , as this my severe Judge cannot forgive . This is represented as my highest Offence ; and truly I shall not need to seek to him for Absolution or Pardon , nor to be my Confessor : I have a merciful and faithful High Priest to apply and appeal to ; I need not go to unmerciful and implacable Ones for Pardon ; especially such a one as has so shamefully calumniz'd me with subborning Two Texts as Favourers of damnable Heresie . How comes this Accuser , in his Fallibility or Uncertainty , thus severely to condemn me , when he cannot refute Matter of Fact about the Two said Texts , being alledged in behalf of my Friend's meaning , and not at all with the least Intention to lessen the Dignity or Glory of the Son of God ? No , far be it from me . And where 's my unpardonable Sin in the Application of the Text , Phil. 2 ? Why he saith , George Whitehead brings in the word Figure , which is not in the English Translation . And what then ? But let him have it , he himself makes it synonimous to Shape , p. 263. And he is forced to let me have it , because he cannot well deny it , without Disparagement to himself . But herein he would place on me a Mis-application of the Words , [ Who being found in the Shape or Figure of a Man , &c. ] And therefore saith , what relation has this to the calling Christ Jesus a Type or Figure of their Light within , which I have shewn above out of the Quakers Books ? And I have denied this as a Falshood before , and now declare against his manifest Perversion and Injury to me , and my Words herein . For as I sincerely disown the Words charged , viz. The calling Christ Jesus a Type or Figure of our Light within , I could not apply the Words before in the Text , Phil. 2. to have any relation thereto ; much less as proof of that which I never held : And I know none of us that doth so call Jesus Christ A Type of our Light within , he being the Fountain thereof . Nor that Christ is Only a Figure , as falsly charged by F. Bugg . Which Perversion , so far as I can find , was first forged from these Words , in the Book Saul's Errand ; viz. Christ in the Flesh without them , is their Example or Figure ; which is both one . For his being their Example , 1 Pet. 2. 21. & 4. 1. & 1. 15. & John 13. 15. are quoted . See also Luke 2. 31. he was called a Sign . Now hence to say he was Only a Sign , were a gross Perversion ; Christ was our Example . Now hence to say he was nothing else but an Example , were an Abuse and to lessen his Dignity , and a variation from the Sense ; as our Adversary has done upon Trust of his Author F. Bugg ; upon his false Report , which is besides all Justice , Morality and judicial Proceedings . Now the Question is , Whether Figure may be made synonimous to Example , for the words Example or Figure , as before ? I conceive it may . For Type or Figure sometimes points at a thing to come , as in Rom. 5. 14. who was the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Figure of him that was to come . And sometimes Type or Figure denotes a present Example or Pattern , as in Phil. 3. 17. Mark them which walk so , as ye have us for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Example . And the same Word is used in 2 Thes. 3. 9. & 1 Tim. 4. 12. & Titus 2. 7. & 1 Cor. 10. 11. only in different Cases , or Terminations . And the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an Example or Type , John 13. 15. Heb. 9. 23. Thus Example or Type are made synonimous in T. C.'s Lexicon , and the like in Crit. Sacr. but more fully explain'd ; for there 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. Exemplum , Exemplar , Triplicem habet in Scriptura significatum . 1. Significat Typum seu Figuram , rerum , vel praeteritarum , Heb. 8. 5. vel futurarum , Heb. 9. 23. 2. Exemplum imitationis , John 13. 15. 1 Tim. 4. 12. Titus 4. 7. 3. Exemplum Monitionis , sive Cautelae , ut 2 Pet. 2. 6. i. e. Exemplum , Exemplar , hath a threefold Signification in Scripture . 1. It signifies a Type or Figure of Things , either past or to come . 2. An Example of Imitation . 3. An Example of Warning or Caution . Now see how synonimously the Terms Type , Figure , Patern and Example , are rendered in Scripture , and of what extent , not only in relation to the Types under the Law , but in some respect to Christ and his Ministers , tho' he be also confessed to be the Antitype , Substance and End of all Legal Shadows , Types and Figures . But I have not called Christ himself a Type of our Light within , nor justified the same . As to my Accuser's Offence at my saying Christ's Flesh is called the Veil , Heb. 10. 20. it was to remove an Offence taken against my Friend J. P. for using the same . And it would have become this Adversary to have forborn his blasphemous Scoffing at my Light ; as ; George if thy Light has hitherto forgot to tell thee ▪ &c. I bless the Lord my God , who is my Light , Life and Salvation ; he has shewn me the new and living way of the New Covenant , which our blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ consecrated , prepared or set open through the Veil , that is to say , his Flesh ; yea , through his Sufferings and Death , as being the Testator , he hath enforced that New Testament or second Covenant ; he took away the first , that he might establish the second ; and so hath open'd the Passage into eternal Life , into the Hollest of Holies within the Veil , and beyond all the Shadows and Veils under the Law. It was in the most holy Place within the second Veil in the Tabernacle , which was called the Holiest of all in the Old Covenant , that the golden Censor and Ark of the Testament were put , and the golden Pot which had Manna , and Aaron's Rod that had budded , and the Tables of the Testament , and over the Ark the Cherubims of Glory shadowing the Mercy-seat , Heb. 9. Exod. 26. So the most excellent things were within the Veil , tho' there was a Beauty and Glory also without it . All which , I doubt not were Shadows of the New Covenant , and the spiritual Dispensation thereof in Christ Jesus , in whom the most holy place of that divine Service and Worship ( in the New Covenant Sanctuary which the Lord has placed in the midst of his People ) is in the Spirit and in the Truth . And all our spiritual Blessings and heavenly Treasures are in Christ Jesus , who is our Sanctuary and Hiding-place . And it is in the inmost , or most inward and spiritual Dispensation of the New Covenant , that Mercy and Forgiveness is receiv'd , and Christ most livingly and effectually known to us and enjoyed ; and in him the most holy and heavenly Places , wherein the true spiritual Believers sit down with him ; and as being washed from their Sins in his Blood by his Spirit , are his Church and Sanctuary also , and thereby have boldness to enter into the holy Place , even by that new and living Way ( which Christ hath prepared for us through the Veil , that is to say , his Flesh , Heb. 10. ) that we may follow him therein into Heaven it self . And what entrance through Christ our Mediator we have here in measure received into this new and living Way , and holy and heavenly Places in him , we doubt not but it is to us an Earnest of a more full Enjoyment of Heaven and Glory hereafter , with Christ Jesus our Fore-runner , Leader and Captain of our Salvation , we continuing faithful to the end in this his new and living Way , as true and constant Followers of him . God in his great Love and Wisdom has afforded several Dispensations , one higher and more glorious than another , in order to bring Man nearer and nearer to himself ; as that of the Law , and of Shadows and Types ; that of the Prophets ; that of John the Baptist ; that of Christ in the Flesh , and that of Christ in the Spirit and New Covenant , which is higher , more powerful and more glorious than the former , and therein a more clear knowledge of Christ than in all the former , wherein there was some Sight of him through Shadows and Veils , but by his divine Light shining in our Hearts God is pleased to give us the Light of the knowledge of his Glory in the Face of his dear Son Christ Jesus , that we all with open Face , as in a Glass , may behold the Glory of God , and be changed into the same Image from Glory to Glory , as by the Spirit of the Lord , 2 Cor. 3. 18. & Ch. 4. 6 , 7. Now , tho' our Adversary has made a deal of Dispute and Quarrel with us about calling Christ's Flesh the Veil , as in Heb. 10. yet he is fain to grant , That Christ's Body is called a Veil in relation to its Type , the Veil of the Temple , p. 262 , 263. but he 'll have this not to be in the Quakers Sense . They call it a Veil ; that is ( saith he ) a Garment , in contradistinction to its being Christ's Substance , and of his Nature , p. 262. Whereas its rather in contradistinction to its Being , his Divine Natnre , or to its being in the first place , or principally or chiefly Christ himself ( who is the Son of God ) for whom the Body was prepared , because he did pre-exit it , or was in Being before he took upon him that Body , even in his Father's Glory before the World began , wherewith he is glorified . However , the Veil , which was Christ's Flesh , ( through which he set open the new and living Way ) we never deny to be Christ's Body , or to be a real Body , but own it was ; and never believed it to be a Fantastical Body , as I have often said ; but that Christ the Son of God took upon him real Flesh and Blood of our Nature , yet pure and incorrupt in him . And as his Flesh was called the Veil , it answers its Type or Figure , i. e. the Veil of the most Holy Place , or Oracle where God gave Answers , 1 Kings 6. 20. & 8. 6 , 8. & 2 Chron. 3. 10 , 16. And these most Holy Places in the Tabernacle and Temple , being Places of divine Service , then peculiar to the High Priest to enter into , their Antitype is in Christ Jesus , the New Covenant , where in the Spirit and in the Truth , God is truly worshipped , and meets with ( and speaks to ) his People , even by Christ Jesus their High Priest , who is present in the midst of his Church and Assemblies of his People , the true and spiritual Worshippers , who meet in his Name , Spirit and Power , whose Light and Truth brings its Followers unto his Holy Tabernacles , Psal. 43. 3. And as to Christ's Substance and Nature , what does our Opposer mean thereby ? How has he distinguished in this Point ? Christ has in him a divine Nature , as well as that of Man , which he hath also in the purest Sense . But which is the greatest ? Is not the divine Nature , the Deity in him , greater than the Manhood ? As he said , My Father is greater than all , greater than I , John 10. 29. Nevertheless , as our great and only Mediator and Intercessor , it was necessary he should be Man , as he is the most glorious , heavenly Man ; and as the Christ of God he is spiritually in us , in his Saints and Members , in some measure , by his Spirit , Light , Life and Power , even as the incorruptible , immortal Seed in Man is of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost ; and therein all true spiritual Believers do in measure partake of the divine Nature , being born again of this incorruptible Seed . The gross Calumnies , cruel Mockeries , false Stories and Perversions of the Author of The Snake in the Grass , are therein so numerous ; together with his partial picking , nibling , mincing and carping at our Books , which is so perverse , and much on 't so silly , that I confess many of them are waved in this Answer , as not worthy of spending more precious time about them ; and I shall leave the said Author to the just Judgment of him that judghth righteously , wishing his Repentance before it be too late . And tho' he sculks and hides himself , as if he were afraid or ashamed to own his Work with his Name to it ; so am not I of my Name or Vindication ; tho' I be ( and expect to be ) reproached and misrepresented for Christ's sake , whose Servant I am , George Whitehead . A BRIEF EXAMINATION OF Some Passages , IN THE Second Book of the Author OF The Snake in the Grass : FALSLY STILED , Satan dis-rob'd from his Disguise of Light : Or , The Quakers last Shift to cover their monstrous Heresies , laid fully open . WHEN I looked upon the Title of the said Book , stiled , Satan dis-rob'd from his Disguise of Light : With this additional reproachful Title ; Or , The Quakers last Shift to cover their monstrous Heresies ; and being By the Author of the Snake in the Grass , I did suppose it to be the Second Part to the same Tune , or much of the same Nature with the former , full of Bitterness and Scorn , by the reviling Title , and no fair Reply to T. Ellwood's Answer ; and so it appears ; and I expect will be made farther appear , if T. Ellwood deems it worth the while to undertake it . But that which appear'd most strange to me and some others , was , in the Title of the said Book , it is thus declared ; Which also may serve for a Reply ( as to the main Points of Doctrin ) to Geo. Whitehead 's Answer to the Snake in the Grass ; to be published the end of the next Month , if this prevent it not . Which appeared very strange to me , and the Man 's presumptive Falshood the greater , I having a great part of the Copy of my Answer to The Snake in the Grass in my Hands , when I first saw these Words in Print ; and the rest of my Copy then in the Printers Hands , which we did not hear they lent him to make Reply to ; and when I lookt over his Book , I neither found any repetition of my Answer , nor Reply thereto . However he 's so confident and boasting in his own Work , that he takes it for granted , That not only the Quakers are put to their last Shift , but also that this pretended Reply to T. Ellwood's Answer to G. Keith's Narrative , may also serve for a Reply to G. Whitehead's Answer to The Snake in the Grass : Which would seem a cunning Piece of Divination indeed , to Reply to a Book before he sees it or knows it . But if he will still have his said Reply a sufficient Reply thereunto , he may go on in 's own Conceit , and save himself a further Labour of Replying , lest he give himself the Lie , by giving the World to understand that what he has said may serve for a Reply to Geo. Whitehead's Answer , may not serve for a Reply . However , he seems to have taken upon himself a heavy Task , in being an Advocate for George Keith ; and more heavy , to reconcile the Contradictions charged upon him by Tho. Ellwood , John Pennington and his Brother Edward , and partly for Baptists and Presbyterians , and all against the Quakers in his Reply ; but very partial in carping at our Words and Answers in many places , without taking notice of the unwarrantable Expressions , Absurdities and Contradictions of our Adversaries , and yet in general Terms excuses them ; but in no small Contradiction to himself , and the sad Account and ill Characters he has given in his Snake in the Grass , 2nd Part , Sect. 3. pag. 17. 18. both of Presbyter , Anabaptist , Independent , Quaker , &c. as all under Enthusiasm , of Rome's dressing in several Shapes and Forms , and as a plentiful Harvest of Rome 's reaping , &c. But now he can advocate and take part with any of them against the Quakers , like some mercinary Soldier of Fortune . I do not intend to spend much time here to Answer his said Reply , though 't is no great Difficulty to do ; but to take notice of a few Passages in it , wherein I and some others are concerned , and injurionsly dealt with therein . 1. My excepting against that made Expression Co-creator , as used by the Baptist , telling of God being Co-creator with the Father ; I confess I am no more reconciled to the Expression now , than I was when first I questioned it as unscriptural ; whereby I never intended not to allow the Word to be God , or to the Son of God , as I am most injuriously accused , p. 2. For divers of my ancient and first Writings in Print shew the contrary , that I own the Word to be God , and Creator too . But the Phrase God Co-creator with God , I think still implies Two Creators , and consequently Two Gods. 'T is not the Particle co with , in this Case , will excuse the Matter , for co or con is simul together , as Co-workers , Co-partners , which are more distinct Agents than one : But the Creator is but one God , one Word , one Spirit , and so one Creator . But this invented word Co-creator was brought by the Baptists for proof That the Light in Man , wherewith the word God as Co-creator lighteth every Man , is the Light of Reason , the Light of Nature , &c. consequently but a created Light ; which I deny . Seeing that it is the same Life that was in the Word , that was the Light of Men , John 1. 4. What good Doctrin or good Sense were it then to say , That the word God was Co-creator with the Father of his own Life , Light and Power : And no better Sense can I make of the Baptist's Notion of the Light in this Case , nor of this Man 's excusing him . Besides , a learn'd and more moderate and ingenuous Person , has lately made the like Exception against the word Co-creator in a printed Paper , called , Reflections upon some Passages in G. Keith 's Narrative ; where he saith , It seems to me that the word Co-creator might justly be rejected by G. Whitehead , being a word neither us'd in the Holy Scriptures , nor by any of the ancient Councils ; and it seems to import a Conceit that there are Two Efficients of the Creation , one having a creative Power distinct from the other . Yet , withal , he is pleased to give this gentle Reflection on me by the way . Tho' G. W. has not spoken with that Caution and Accuracy which he should have us'd in a Matter of so grand Importance ; which I do the more easily bear from him because of his Moderation . Suppose that in some Passages , in some of my former Writings , as to the Circumstance of Words or Expressions , there may be some Deficiency , or want some Explication or Distinction , or something dubious , and the Particulars thereof were shewn me , I hope I should not be wanting to give my Explication to the Satisfaction of the Moderate and Ingenuous . As to the Matters intended by me , I know the Lord gave me a true Sense and Sight , by his Power , in my young and early Years , he having inclined my Heart after him from my Youth , I bless his Holy Name . The same Person whom I cited before , goes on , viz. I do not conceive that he , ( i. e. G. W. ) denies either the Divinity or Humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ : The Father is Creator , the Son Creator , the Holy Ghost Creator ; and yet they are not Three Creators , but One Creator . Thus he : Consequently , not properly called Co-creators ; for that would imply Three Creators . And I think I might more warrrantably oppose the same than my Adversary imply Three intelligent Beings in the Godhead , by his definition of a Person , that every intelligent BEING is a Person ; that is the meaning of the word Person ( saith he ) p. 5. Whence it follows , That if there be Three distinct Persons in the Deity , they are Three distinct intelligent Beings ; unless he 'll argue as one of his Brethren did ; They are not Three Substances , therefore ▪ Three Persons . Another having given Aquinas his definition of a Person , as being an individual Substance of a rational Nature , which is neither the part of another , nor upheld by another . But now if they be not Three Beings , nor Three Substences , how well have these Men defended a principal Article of their Faith ? Seeing the Father , the Word and Holy Ghost are owned by Christians to be One Being ; One Substance ; therefore not Three Beings nor Three Substances . My speaking of Christ as the only begotten of the Father ; and for his Divinity , as he was the Brightness of the Father's Glory , and express Image of his divine Substance , and thereupon questioning T. Danson , where doth the Scripture say , That his Soul was created ? This Question is no Determination that it was , or was not . Christ , as God , his Soul was increated . As Man , his Soul or Spirit was not the Deity , but formed and assumed by the Word . The Word , or Son of God , who made the Worlds , was not a Creature , because he made all Creatures . Though he took upon him a most pure and perfect Soul and Body , he took upon him the Seed of Abraham , that he might in both Soul and Body suffer for Mankind , and sympathize with us in bearing our Sorrows and carrying our Griefs ; and that his Soul might be in Travel for us , and made an Offering for Sin , and poured out unto Death , Isa. 53. By my said Question I chiefly eyed his Divinity , considering him as he proceeded and came out from God , and as he was glorified with the Father , before the World began . Upon the whole , my Adversary's Charge of Heresie upon me and the Quakers , against the Incarnation of Christ , p. 2. as also his Author G. Keith's publick Aspersions , That G. W. disowns Christ to be God , and denied him to be Man , Narr . p. 16. These are to tell the World , That we own no Christ at all : Wherein , as they have both grosly wrong'd my Intention , Principle and publick Testimony , I am persuaded G. K. has wronged his own Conscience , and that he must needs know the contrary of me , in this and some other things , for which he is accountable to the just God. For by questioning the Words created or human Soul , I did not thereby intend to deny Christ to be truly Man , as is unduly insinuated against me , p. 2. but rather to own , That tho' Christ was truly Man in Soul and Body , yet that his Soul was more divine than any other Mans or Mens ; and therefore he may be said to be a most divine Man , and more of the divine and increated Life in his Soul , than in any other Man's whatsoever ; and that therefore the word human , as it relates to the Ground or Earth , from which the Body of Man was taken , I might suppose was too low or mean a Character or Epithite to give to the Soul of Christ , or to his spiritual glorious Body either ; and I hope I deserve not blame in this , while I was careful not to lessen the Glory or Dignity of the Son of God , ( as he is the Lord from Heaven ) by not allowing him to be from beneath or Earthly , either in Soul or Body in his glorified State ; and I am perswaded that some so much insisting upon the word Human Soul and Body of Christ , gives the Socinians more advantage than my pleading for his Divinity and Heavenly glory both as God and Man. To my Question to Robert Gordon , I think there 's no real Cause for Offence to be taken at it , if the Occasions ministred by him , were Impartially taken notice of , which they are not by this partial Adversary . As R. G.'s great Ignorance both of the Light and Saving-work of Christ in Man ; excluding Christ's work of Salvation and Justification , &c. as all done and finished without Man , even when no good is wrought in Man ; and pleading for Imperfection and Sin in Man , in so much that Geo. Keith charged the said Gordon with 18 corrupt Doctrins , and above 20 Lyes and false Accusations , in the conclusion of my Book , Entituled , The Nature of Christianity in the true Light asserted , Printed Anno 1671. And yet this officious Adversary takes his part , excusing him , in defence of G. Keith against us , as he has done also in his Snake in the Grass , which is such a piece of confused Mixture and Medley , as I have seldom ever met withal . My Question to R. Gordon as Cited : Dost thou look for Christ as the Son of Mary , to appear outwardly in a bodily Existence to save thee ? If thou dost , thou mayest look until thy Eyes drop out , before thou wilt see such an appearance of him ? And what proof is made of this against me ? But that I do not acknowledge that Christ has now the Body of a Man , or will come in that Body to Judge the World. Answ. Neither do I deny it . If I do not acknowledge it in this Passage , I do in many others , namely , that Christ as the Heavenly Man has his own proper glorious Body , wherein he will come to Judge the World at the last day . And therefore do not hold that Christ has no bodily Existence ( or being ) without us , as G. K. accuseth me , Narr . p. 16. He wrongs me in this , as in divers other things . But upon R. Gordon 's pretending a perfect Justification and Redemption of Sinners without them , when no good is wrought in them ; and yet granting that Christ's appearing the second time is without Sin to Salvation . But then his deferring this till the Resurrection of the Body , this I confess , was so offensive to me , that I put the said Question ; the reason whereof appears more at large in my said Answer , Nature of Christianity , p. 29. It being always my Judgment , with many others , that Salvation from Sin should be expected in this Life , and Christ's second appearance for that end also , mentioned Heb. 9. 28. That this ought not to be put off till the last day , but expected even in this Life as in the Apostles days . There were those then that looked for him to whom his appearance the second time without Sin unto Salvation was promised , and the true Believers were not disappointed of their expectations in that weighty matter . As many have been who have expected to see Christ's outward coming in Person ( with their carnal Eyes ) to save them . Besides , 't is true in Fact , that those carnal Eyes of many fail them , drop out or rot , before they can see Christ's outward appearance , or coming in the last day to Judgment . And G. Keith himself , as well as I , have charged false and corrupt Doctrin upon Robert Gordon , particularly in his asserting , That Redemption , Justification and Reconciliation , is finished and compleated by what Christ did and suffered outwardly , and not in our Persons , and without the help of any thing to be wrought in us . Artic. 6 , 8 , 12 of his Charge against Gordon , Nature of Christianity , p. 70 , 71 , 72. And why now I should be accused by G. Keith or his Advocate , for the words before to R. G. as if I denied Christ to appear in , or to have a Bodily Existence or Being , I see no just Cause , but rather that G. K. does therein ( as in many other things ) interfere with himself and his own former Testimony , which is directly agreeable to what I have said , and more severe and positive , as in his Help in time of need , p. 78 , 79. In these words , viz. And now whether ye will hear or forbear , this I do declare unto you , in the Name and Power , and Authority of the living God , the day of the Lord is of a truth broken up among us , and ye shall look till your Eyes fail you , and rot within your Eye-holes , e're ever you see another day , or appearance of Jesus Christ to your comfort , than what we the People of the Lord called Quakers , do witness come , and yet more abundantly coming , and if ye will not hear , my Soul shall mourn for you in secret places , and weep before the Lord on your behalf . Quere , Was this to deny Christ to have any Bodily Being ? If G. K. may be cleared herein , I may be clear from and against his own Judgment unduly given upon me . I see no vehement ( or any ) denyal of Christ's being either Bodily ( or Spiritually ) at God's right hand , as I am accused , p. 3. by Questioning the Words and Terms of R. G. What Scripture proof has he for these words , That Christ existeth outwardly bodily without us at God's right hand ? And what , and where is God's right hand ? Is it Visible or Invisible ? Within us or without us only ? And is Christ the Saviour as an outward Bodily Existence , or Person without us distinct from God ; and on that consideration , to be Worshipped as God , yea or nay ? And where doth the Scripture say , he was outwardly and bodily glorified at God's right hand ? &c. These Questions are no conclusions nor any positive determinations , and they carry in them the reason thereof , namely , 1. Our then Adversary's excluding Christ as to his being out of his People and Saints , because at God's right hand ; which has been the common Argument of divers of them . 2. Their neglect and opposition to Christ's inward spiritual appearance , and saving work in the heart , under pretence of his outward and bodily Existence at God's right hand ; which expressions I did the more Question , because of the common and gross sense wherein many are apt to take them , as a bodily Being , like their own earthly Bodies of Flesh and Blood , which cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , 1 Cor. 15. 50. And because they commonly have opposed his being at God's right hand , to his inward and spiritual appearance , asserting the one in opposition to the other , having expressed very gross and carnal conceits of Christ's outward and bodily Existence at God's right hand ; thence inferring that the true Christ is not in Men , which Argument and Inference I deny ; the reason whereof may farther appear . As for instance , John Newman whom G. K. and his Advocate has sided with against me , argues thus . Christ cannot dwell in Man , for Christ is perfect Man , as well as perfect God , in his Book stiled , The Light within , p. 61. Again , If Jesus Christ be with the Father , then he is not in Man , and that therefore 't is a feigned Christ and Light within , p. 47 , 66 , 72. I deny the Argument , both of the first Proposition and Consequence ; Christ being with the Father , or at God's right hand , is no reason or proof that he is not in Man. To which I then Answered J. N. Christ ascended , p. 20 , 21. Doth Christ's being with the Father , or at his right hand , hinder him from being in his People ? This is gross Error , and contrary to plan Scripture , 2 Cor. 13. Know you not how that Jesus Christ is in you , except ye be reprobates ; and this is neither a feigned Christ , nor a feigned Light , as Blasphemously and Scornfully he words it : And what doth J. N. think or imagin concerning God , his right hand and being ? And Christ at God's right hand , that he thus would exclude , limit and seem to confine them out of all Men ? Doth not this oppose the Infiniteness and Omnipresence of God and Jesus Christ , and bring them under the limitation of finite Creatures ? With much more upon this Subject in the places Quoted . I do not find that my Answer to J. N. is a denying Christ's outward appearance at the great day , as accused , p. 4. But rather a Questioning such a manner of appearance , as he and others carnally expected to be seen with their carnal Eyes ; as having declared that Jesus Christ Rose and Ascended Flesh and Blood , and those that pierced him in his Body , shall see that Body visibly come again . I Answered , These are not the words of Scripture , but added ; and for Answer to him , I referred to Rev. 1. 7 , 8 , 13 , 14 , 16. In none of which is Jesus Christ called ( or represented as ) a Body of Flesh , Blood and Bones , visibly to come again , &c. The words Blood and Bones , G. Keith has in recital hereof injuriously left out in his Gross Error and Hypocrisie , p. 3. And yet makes use of the place to defame me with unbelief in a fundamental Doctrin of Christian Faith ; and the same words , as Body of Flesh , Blood and Bones , he has likewise left out in his injurious Citation and Construction in his Nar. p. 17. He has also left out this following Passage on the same Subject : Howbeit His ( Christ's ) appearance shall be universal , seen both to the Joy of the Righteous , and universal Conviction and Condemnation of the Wicked , who have rejected his Light within , and his saving appearance thereby made manifest ; yea every Eye shall see him both of Good and Bad , both those that have waited for his second coming without Sin to Salvation , and they also which have Pierced and Crucified him , &c. Christ Ascended , Printed in 1669. p. 22 , 23. I never heard before , That 't is a Fundamental Doctrin of the Christian Faith , That Jesus Christ either consisteth of a Body of Flesh , Blood and Bones , or is in such a Body to come again visibly , to Mens carnal Eyes they now have ; which was the very thing I Questioned in the places Quoted against me by G. K. Light and Life , p. 41. Printed in 1668. And Christ Ascended , p. 21 , 22 , 23. Wherein , in the first , he has left out the Question , Did John see him with carnal Eyes , on Rev. 1 ? And of the glory of the Father , wherein the Son of Man shall come , Mat. 16. 27 , 28. Luke 9. 26 , 27. Is it visible to the carnal Eye ? left out ; and in the latter , after in none of which , ( i.e. Scriptures Quoted ) is Jesus Christ represented as a Body of Flesh , here Blood and Bones are left out , which is very unfair , and more unjust , to render me an unbeliever thereupon ; like as if one should deal thus by a Quotation out of G. K.'s Way cast up , p. 131. After [ it being no more a Body ] to leave out [ of Flesh Blood and Bones ] and then how would [ but a pure Ethereal or Heavenly Body ] stand or co-here ? which he speaks of the glorious Body of Christ. Though I have always opposed the Gross and Carnal conceirs of many about the Resurrection , I do not believe that Christ's glorious Body and the Saints Resurrection Bodies , ( which must be like unto his , ) shall be all shut up in Invisibility , so as not to be seen or known one of another , But that in Christ's Kingdom of Glory hereafter they shall as truly see and know one another , as the Angels of God in Heaven do , to whom they shall be Equal . Note , That our present Adversary's granting , Christ's Body to be glorified in Heaven , and much changed from the condition it was in upon the Cross , p. 4. And also , That such a gross Notion of the Resurrection , no Christian ever held , as if the Body were to rise in the same Grossness and Carnality that it has in this Life . And that G. K. has sufficiently explained himself , and that the Body when raised , shall be the same as to substance , but not as to the Grossness and Carnality as now ; and did Illustrate it by the Chymical Extraction of Spirits out of Herbs , &c. p. 26. As G. K. saith , How much more ought we to acknowldge the Wisdom and Power of God who not only can , but will change the Bodies of the Saints from all gross and terrestrial Qualities , to be Heavenly and Spiritual ; the Husk or drossy Part , ( that is no more the true Body , than Dross in a lump of rich Oar of Gold is Gold ) being excepted , Gross Er. p. 13. and p. 9. We must needs think ( saith he ) That Christ's Body was really Terrestrial , i.e. had Terrestrial Qualities when it was upon Earth ; But now it is Heavenly endued altogether with Heavenly Qualities , as the Bodies of the Saints will be at the Resurrection , &c. But to be more full and plain , observe what he saith in his Way cast up , p. 131. That Body that was crucified on the Cross at Jerusalem , and is now Ascended and Glorified in Heaven , which remaineth the same in Substance that it was on Earth , although it be wonderfully changed as to the Mode and Manner of its being : It being no more a Body of Flesh , Blood and Bones ; but a pure Ethereal or Heavenly Body , like unto which the Bodies of the Saints are to be at the Resurrection . Now observe this great and wonderful change of Christ's glorified Body , and of the Saints Resurrection Bodies , was not heretofore granted by our former Adversaries , as T. Elwood truly observes , though very untruly charg'd with horrid and sensless Imputation , and notorious Falshood , p. 4. for saying , It is well known that many of the Baptists , as well as others of other Professions , do hold the Body of Christ now in Heaven , to be as really and materially a Body of Flesh , Blood and Bones , as it was when it was upon the Cross. That many have so held both of Christ's glorious Body and the Resurrection Bodies , hath been notoriously known to us and many others , as my said Answer to the said Newman partly shews , p. 17. 18. And our answers to Tho. Hickes and Mathew Caffin and T. Grantham rendred Christ's Body Heaven , such a one as his Quakers Ref. p. 40 , 41. And Thomas Vincent ( and others ) his gross conceits may be seen in his Illustrations about the Resurrection , noted in our Book entituled , The Christian Quaker , in folio , 2d . part p. 161 , 162 , 163 , 164 , 165. &c. The most that ever I discoursed of those our former Adversaries , have held the Resurrection in that gross sense mentioned , by T. E. except Jer. Ives , tho' a contentious Adversary , yet in that Point more ingenuous than most of his Brethren in those Days . At a publick Dispute between some of us and some Baptists at Chersey in Surry , when a Question about the Body of Christ in Heaven , was Ignorantly obtruded by William Burnett ; his Brother Jer. Ives in answer to my speaking of Christ's various appearances , as in divers Forms , after he rose , said , What change or alteration His Body might have , we cannot determine , nor what Glory he is in ; for to enquire with what Body the Dead are raised is absurd , Christ Ascended , p. 19 , 20. Now it is observable in our former controversies on this Point , The Question put to us was not , Whether the Saints shall come forth in the Resurrection , with their Bodies of such a Spiritual , Pure and Heavenly Extract , as to be free from all Carnality , Grossness , Dross , Husk and Terrestrial Qualities ; even so as no more to be Bodies of Flesh , Blood and Bones , but Pure Ethereal or Heavenly Bodies , like unto Christ's glorious Body ? According to G. K's and his Advocates confession . I say , this was not the Question we controverted then : But , whether the same numerical Body , of Flesh , Blood and Bones that dies , shall be raised ? This we have objected against , and the same Substance ; that is , the same gross Substance and Bodily Existence of Flesh , Blood and Bones ; this we have excepted against . But Resurrection Bodies of such a refined Extract and Celestial Substance , as is not Flesh and Blood , but free from that Dross and Husk , as is now proposed , was not in controversy , that ever I remember between us and our former Adversaries . However G. K. should be so ingenuous as to tell the People , what he means by the same Body for Substance , that shall rise , that it is not the same Body of Flesh , Blood and Bones ; but a pure spiritual ethereal heavenly extract Body , and then see how that will take : And I think he 'l gain no more popularity in that Point , than those of us he Quarrels with , without just Cause . Otherwise 't is very disingenuous to hide himself under general and indefinite Terms , by telling the People , the same Bodies that dye shall arise the same in Substance , and not tell them what Substance that is , that is not Flesh , Blood and Bones ; for under those general Terms they may take him to mean in the common and gross sense of the same Flesh and Blood , who understand nothing of a Celestial Seed or Ethereal substance hid in these gross Bodies , or in their first Elements which they are to be dissolved into , whether in the Earth , Fire or Water , wherein many Bodies have been destroyed , dissolv'd and consum'd . That Scripture , Jo. 14. 19. Yet a little while and the World seeth me no more : ( which G. K. thinks he better translates , as yet or not as yet ) Nar. p. 17. However I did not alledge it to prove , that Christ has no Body at all , as in Nar. p. 17. herein G. K. wrongs me ; but that the World should see Christ no more in that manner wherein they then saw him : That which they then saw of him with their carnal Eyes , they should see no more , i.e. as in the Flesh. And how should they , if his glorified Body be no more a Body of Flesh , Blood and Bones , but a pure Ethereal or Heavenly Body , they must have other Eyes to see him withal , as such than these same Eyes of Flesh they now have . Again , I am manifestly mis-represented by G. K. Narr . p. 18. As thinking all Anthropomorphites and Muggletonians , who believe that the Man Christ has any bodily Existence in Heaven ; which was none of my Answer or Argument : But upon J. Newmans excluding Christ out of all Men , because at the right hand of God as a personal Being , and calling Christ within only a feigned Christ , as his terms were ; this Argument I opposed , and still do , as no sufficient reason to exclude the true Christ out of all Men , and therefore gave this Answer , i.e. This manner of excluding God's right hand , and Christ to a limitation ( as wholly ) out of his People in a Personal Being , ( which are no Scripture Terms ) still implyes him to be such a Personal God or Christ , like the Anthropomorphites ; &c. Now I say again , If any one should argue in better Terms , that Christ is a glorious Intelligent Being at God's right hand , without all Men , Ergo , he is not in Men , no not in believers ; I deny the Consequence , for this is to limit the Omnipresent God to a remoteness as well as Christ , and tends to gratifie the carnal imaginations of such as have formed an Idea or Imagination of God and his right hand , like a Person or Man remote and without all Men , under such limitation as the Anthropomorphites did , and that according to the common speaking , when we say such a Person , we mean such a Man whom we call a Person , ( as we do a Woman also ) and my Adversarie's also more finely defining a Person to be a Spirit , p. 5. will neither help the Argument for the Baptist against us , nor amend some Mens carnal Imaginations of a Personal God like themselves ; for who are most carnal in their Thoughts about God , are most apt to imagin carnally of him ; and suppose any should argue in this Man's Terms , That Christ being at God's right hand , who is a Spirit , Ergo , not in believers or any Men , this would bespeak as much Ignorance as the former , and more Absurdity , to suppose God a limited circumscribed Spirit , not Infinite nor Omnipresent , which is to oppose his being the true God , as he is an Infinite Omnipresent Spirit , Power , Life , Light and Wisdom . Besides , my Animadversion is very plain to J. N. in this case , Christ Ascended , p. 69. If the indwelling of God and Christ be such in his People , and the Saints in such near Union and Conjunction with Christ , as the Branches with the Vine , and the Members with the Body ; ( as in contradiction to himself he confessed ) then 't is false and a lying Imagination , to imagin either Christ , God , and his right hand so remote as not to dwell in any Man , no not in their own People . And I may add , 't is also contrary to God's own promise , to dwell in them and walk in them , and to his saving and upholding them by his own right hand . Christ's being set at God's right hand , bespeaks his Exaltation , Dignity and Glory , obtained through his Humiliation and Sufferings , but not an exclusion of Christ , of God or his right hand , as if each were limitted or circumscribed wholly without all Men , and as not to be in any Men , as they are in a true Spiritual and Scripture sense . p. 6. My telling J. Horn and T. Moor , That the Nature of Christ is pure , but theirs filthy , therefore not in Christ , as they said it was , whilst pleading for Sin as their natural Heritage during this life . This was simply in Opposition to the Antinomian Sin-pleasing Notion , of their being justified and pure in Christ , when in themselves filthy and actually Sinful , which was all one , as if I had told them , you are not in Christ nor Heirs with him , whilst in your selves filthy and Sin your natural Heritage , which is far from any such false Notion , as that Christ could not take on him Man's nature , except he took on him the pollution of it . 'T is none of my Notion , nor intended in the Passage before , but unjustly cast upon me by G. K. Narr . p. 7. and his Advocate , Satan Disrob'd , p. 6. To my Adversary's confidently asserting , That J. Faldo , nor any other did ever oppose this , That they should Preach ONLY the Incarnation and Sufferings of Christ at Jerusalem , i.e. without Preaching likewise the inward operations of his Spirit in our hearts , Satan Disrob'd , p. 7. And that if W. P. or T. E. cannot name one single Man , much less any of those Communions which he disputes against , that ever thought Christ's outward appearance would ever save them without his inward appearance in their Consciences , then against whom have they disputed ? p. 8. Answ. Yes I can name one single Man whom he has vindicated against us , ( in G. K.'s behalf ) who has both thought and said as much as , that Christ's outward Appearance and Sufferings has saved them , without his Appearance or Work in them , and that is the said R. Gordon , and it 's Charged against him , among his many other corrupt Doctrins by G. Keith , in my and his Book , Entituled , The Nature of Christianity , p. 70 , 71. Artic. 1. That Christ without us upon the Cross , hath already subdued all things , finish'd Transgression , made an end of Sin , abolish'd Condemnation and Death . Art. 8. That Redemption , Justification , were finished and compleated in the Crucified Body in Christ for us , not in our Persons . Art. 12. That Redemption and all things are wrought ; purchas'd for us , without the help of any thing to be wrought in us . These G. Keith Charged upon him , with many more as corrupt Doctrins . So that here was one Man , ( i.e. R. G. and too many more ) that has laid the whole Stress and Work of Man's Salvation , only upon Christ's outward Appearance and Suffering , without his inwarad appearance and operations by his Spirit in us . Which is corrupt Doctrin and repugnant to that of the necessity of Regeneration , and being born again , without which no entrance into God's Kingdom . Another Passage by the way I observe , Whereafter this Advocate for G. K. has represented T. Ellwood , as telling how little of difficulty there is in barely and historically believing this , ( i.e. that God sent Christ to dye for Sinners , and to reconcile God to Men by his Death ) the common Faith of all that part of the World called Christian shews , &c. p. 11. He grants , That though that Belief alone will not do , yet that it is not so easie a matter , truly to believe this , even historically : But that 't is a hard Task with the Quakers , and opposed by the Socinians , ( i.e. the satisfaction by Christ's outward Death ) and by all the Deists open Debauchees , and among the Profligate and Prophane of the meaner Rank , few if any of them do really believe it , even historically , or forget it and never think of it , otherwise it would have a greater influence upon them , p. 11 , 12. He might have been so charitable or just , as to have ranked the Quakers among better company , and not to thus scandalize them , who sincerely believe the sacred History of Christ's Death for Sinners , and Reconciliation thereby , but do experience the influence and fruit thereof , by his holy Spirit , according to their growth in Grace , who faithfully follow him in his Light. The Passage I am to observe ( as his Reason for what goes before ) follows , viz. For the Historical Faith must be inseparable from the saving Faith , aud indeed the saving Faith is the Historical throughly digested and applyed , p. 12. Which is to conclude that none have the saving Faith , but those who have the Historical ; consequently , that all must be damned who have not the historical Faith of Christ dying for Sinners , whereby he has at once condemned all Nations or Peoples , both Infants dying in Innocency , and all others who have not the History or historical Faith of Christ's sufferings and Death , tho' it was really for mankind in general , and may and doth for ought he knows influence many who have not the historical Faith or knowledge thereof , otherwise the universal good and end thereof intended for all , is frustrated , to many thousands for want of the History or Preaching of Christ's Death to them ; unless G. K. can demonstrate and resolve , that the twelve Revolutions of humane Souls will make it all up : That all that are Deceased or have Dyed without the historical Faith or Knowledge of Christ Crucified , shall return and have opportunity to have Christ so Preached unto them ; which he has no divine Revelation for , but rather a long exploded Hypothesis or Supposition , ( as in the first part Heathenish ) and therefore the more difficult Task to give any certain demonstration of the same . 'T is farther observable , what uncertainty as well as inconsistency , this Advocate for G. K. is in , even in this Point . He saith , viz. How God will deal with the good moral Heathen , who never heard of Christ , I will not determine , nor enter into the Secrets of Providence , p. 12. When he has determin'd already , that if they have not the historical Faith , they have not the saving Faith , if they be inseperable as he has asserted : For 't is certain without some saving Faith , they cannot be saved , as without Faith it is impossible to please God. But he appears as pinching and partial , in his following objection against the Light , as he is uncharitable in the Premises , viz. But that they , ( i.e. the good moral Heathen ) have the Christian Faith by believing their Light within , Or that there is any object of the Christian Faith without the outward Jesus who suffered at Jerusalem , is a Quakers Dream , and opposite to the whole Tenure of the Gospel , p. 12. Hence observe . 1. This is to deny the Gentiles any Christian Faith , who believe in the Light given them according to God's promises to them ; yea though they be good moral Men , who so believe , as if they could be good or pious without any Christianity in them : Which is to oppose the blessed end of Christ being so given for a Light of the Heathen , and Salvation to the ends of the Earth . 2. It is to deny the Light of Christ , or Christ as the Light within , to be any object of the Christian Faith ; contrary to Christ's Doctrin : Believe in the Light that ye may be the Children of the Light. 3. The last part of the Objection implies , that either Christ as without , and Christ as within is divided , or that there are awo Christs , an outward Christ , and an inward Christ , whereas there is but one Lord Jesus Christ. And his Light within cannot be without or divided from him , who is the Fountain of Light and Life . 4. 'T is not opposite ( but according ) to the Tenour of the Gospel , to believe in the Light or Word of Faith , ( i.e. Christ as within nigh in the Heart ; ) which hath both Law and Gospel , Judgment and Mercy in it to Minister , suitable to Mens states and conditions . And in this Light or Word , we meet with the great Ends , Benefits , or Fruit of Christ's suffering and Mediation , which are manifest and come to be fulfilled in all , who truly believe in and obey the same Word , whereby the Gospel is preached in every Creature under Heaven , yea even in many thousands of Souls who have not the outward History of Christ's suffering and Death ; tho' both the sacred History and sincere Preaching thereof by the Spirit of Christ , be of great use and advantage , and in no wise to be rejected where God is pleas'd to afford them . But seeing , He that believes not in the Son of God is condemned already , and the wrath of God abides upon him , because he obeyeth not the Son of God , John 3. 18. consequently the Son of God is offered unto all , and his Grace is given and appears unto all mankind that they may believe in him and thereby lay hold on him for Life and Salvation . Christ plainly gives the reason of Mens condemnation when he there saith , This is the Comdemnation that Light is come into the World , and Men loved Darkness rather then Light , beeause their Deeds were Evil , John 3. 19. Otherwise to represent God to condem and bring his Wrath upon Men , for not believing in that they never had , or which was never afforded nor appeared unto them . This were Blasphemously to render God Unjust , Unmerciful and most cruel to Condemn and bring his Wrath upon Men for an Impossibility ; for how should they believe in , or obey the Son of God , if no saving Grace or Power of believing be afforded unto them ? This were like as to bind their hands and feet , and lock all Food from them , and then bid them walk and work or else starve . But our good God is no such hard Master , who willeth not the Death of Sinners , but rather their return to him that they may live , and for this end hath sent his Son to be the Saviour of the World. As for innocent Infants , or little Children who dye in Innocency , Divine Providence has provided for their safety , by Christ Jesus , his Meditation and Seed of eternal Life in them ; and their Angels , who see the face of God continually , are ready to carry their Souls into the Heavenly Kingdom , when they dye in that State. My Objecting against W. Burnet , about the Blood of Christ that was shed on the Cross , was first and chiefly , upon his holding , That the shedding of the Blood of Christ upon the Cross , that was let out by vertue of the Spear being thrust into his side , to be meritorious , or the meritorious cause of Man's Justification , which his Brother Ives could not stand by him in ; but supposed a meaning for him . Secondly , That the same Blood that was shed , doth both purge and sprinkle their Conscieuces , sanctifie and justifie them , and yet that 't is not in Being , but cumpared to a price lost , as more at large in my Answer , Light and Life , p. 7 , 8. & p. 64. together with their contradictions about it , referring to W. Burnet's Book and their Discourses . But now to excuse his saying , That Blood is not in Being , this Advocate will have it , that he only gives way to this supposition of the Quakers , by way of Concession , not as his own Opinion , p. 16. 'T is a wonder the Man 's not ashamed to use such a slim come off and false cover for him , when 't was a real Confession , and not forced from him as a meer Concession for Argument sake , why should he compare it then to a price lost ? And another Baptist , Thomas Brown , confess'd that the Blood that was shed , is not in Being , it sunk into the ground , Light and Life , p. 66. The occasion of my Questioning them so much about this matter , was because they seem'd to place the great stress of Man's Salvation upon the outward Blood of Christ and the act of shedding of it , as if it were the present agent operating in them , Purging , sprinkling their Consciences , Sanctifying and Justifying , without making the Spirit the Operator or Efficient thereof ; whereas both Sanctification , washing and cleansing from Sin , Regeneration , Justification , and so Salvation , are more principally ascribed to the Spirit , the Grace , the Word of God , yea , to Christ himself , than to the act of shedding that Blood , or to that Blood it self ; yet I never opposed that as being a part of the Sacrifice of Christ , offered for Sinners , in order to a Pacification , Attonement and Reconciliation . And farther , to his comparison between the Baptists declaring the Blood shed on the Cross not in being , and the Agonies and Passions of Christ upon the Cross , as not now in being , I do not therefore dissolve all the merits of his Sufferings or Death to our Justification thereby . I do not so Argue , ( as implyed against me ) that because his Passion was Temporal and Finite , therefore not Meritorious ; for the Merits or disserving on Christ's part , is placed upon his Obedience in humbling himself to Death , even to the Death of the Cross , wherefore God hath highly exalted him , &c. Phil. 2. 8 , 9. whose Exaltation and Dominion is for our Salvation , if we submit to him as our Leader , Commander and King. But my distinction for Argument is this , Tho' that Blood and Sacrifice were offered as a price in order to Man's Redemption , it is the Power and Spirit of Christ , that inwardly operates and quickens the Soul to God , purifies and sanctifies the Conscience , and so effectually saves us from Sin and Pollution . The Price is already paid , but the Work is yet undone in many ; we value the Price , but must not neglect the Work of our Redemption and Salvation in us ; for Christ's Sacrifice will not save , justifie or acquit any in a State of impenitency or unbelief ; they must know the work of his Grace and Good Spirit in their hearts unto Repentance and Obedience of Faith in Christ , or else they perish in their impenitency and wilful unbelief , whereby they make both the Cross and blood of Christ of none effect unto them . Except a Man be regenerate and born again , he cannot see , nor enter into the Kingdom of God. And I conceive I am not to be blamed , much less ranked among Ranters ( as G. K. has , Narr . p. 25. ) for ascribing the saving work of sprinkling the Conscience , sanctifying and justifying principally to the inward Grace and Spirit , more than to the Blood shed upon the Cross. I say again , I see no necessity of directing Men to the Type for the Antitype , to Jerusalem or the Temple , p. 17. either for Jesus Christ or his Blood there , but that such direction is contrary to what the Righteousness of Faith saith , Ro. 10. 6 , 7 , 8. compared with Deut. 30. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. Tho' we also Preach Christ as he was Crucified and Dyed at Jerusalem , and raised from the Dead , and I do not say that 's contrary to Ro. 10. as G. K. wrongs me several times over , Narr . p. 26 , 27. But to direct Men either to go to the material Temple at Jerusalem , or to look to Jerusalem for Jesus Christ the Antitype of that Temple , &c. This I deem'd contrardictory to Ro. 10. above quoted ; but they are to turn and look to the Word of Faith nigh in the Heart , where they may Livingly find , feel and know Christ in Spirit and Power , even in the Power of his Resurrection , so as to be enabled both to confess with the Mouth the Lord Jesus , and believe in the Heart , that God raised him up from the Dead . And this word of Faith and of God is confessed unto by G. K. himself to be the Object and Foundation of true Faith ; and that this is Christ in them , and that from the same Scriptures I quoted , Deut. 30. 12 , 13. Ro. 10. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. As more fully appears in his immediate revelation , p. 3. & p. 64 , 65. Print . 1668. Therefore 't is not to destroy nor allegorize away the Object of Faith , to direct People to Christ as the word of Faith nigh in the Heart , as the Object thereof , nor is it Antichristian Doctrin , as G. K. has unjustly accused me in this Point , Narr . p. 27. contrary to his former confessions . And suppose any one in deep distress for want of Christ to free and save him from Sin should earnestly enquire , where shall I find him ? Whither will you direct me to find Christ ? And one should answer , I direct thee to Jerusalem , to the material Temple , to the Type for Christ the Antitype ; and should again say , I direct thee to Christ as above the Clouds , and not to Christ as the Light within , and then call the Light within an uncertain Guide , ( as the Baptist did whom I answered in this Case ) How would this answer the distressed Soul ? Or agree with the Testimony of Moses , or of Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ , in Deut. 30. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. and Rom. 10. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. As for what the Righteousness of Faith saith ? I should rather answer the Question according to the Testimony of Moses and the Apostle , Whither shall I be directed to go to find Christ ? Answer , Say not in thine Heart , who shall Ascend into Heaven , that is , to bring Christ down from above ? Or , who shall Descend into the Deep ; that is , to bring Christ again from the Dead ? But what saith it ? The Word is nigh thee , even in thy Mouth and in thine Heart ; that is the Word of Faith which we Preach . And this Word of Faith will bring thee to know the great benefit and fruit of Christ's Death at Jerusalem for thee , and the power of his Resurrection , that thou mayest thereby be enabled livingly to confess with thy Mouth the Lord Jesus , and believe in thine Heart that God hath raised him from the Dead , so as thou mayest be saved by him . But I yet say , to preach Christ as a remote outward Christ only in opposition to his Light and Word of Faith within , ( as in the Heart ) is to keep People in unbelief , remote from the true Faith and Knowledge of Christ , either as without us or within us ; which opposition ought not to be to Christ in either respect . As concerning Sol. Eccles saying , That the Blood that was forced out of Christ's Side with the Spear after he was Dead , being no more than the Blood of another Saint . p. 19. and Nar. p. 28. Concerning which I said , I do not make S. E. his Expressions therein an Article of our Faith , for I own that in one sense the Blood shed was more than that of another Saint , ( tho' not in the visible matter of it ) more , in that it had a peculiar signification for Christ , the one offering was the Man peculiarly ordain'd and appointed of God , both to bear the Sins of many and to end the many offerings under the Law , and in all his Example and Sufferings that were permitted to be laid upon him , he both Answered , Fulfilled and ended the outward part and administration of the Law and Shadows , and performed the Father's Will therein , and was particularly Eyed and Prophesied accordingly by the Holy Prophets ; and through all his sufferings in the Flesh he gave an universal Testimony , and Consecrated a New and Living way , even through the Veil , that is to say his Flesh ; that the way into the most Holy might be manifest , Light and Life , p. 58 , 59. In the first place , I did shew a dislike of S. E's Expressions before cited , in not allowing them as an Article of our Faith : tho' I was willing Charitably to improve his own explication , so far as it would bear a Charitable Construction , with respect to his own declared Estimation of the Blood of Christ , it 's Value and Vertue . 2dly , I shewed in part my estimation of the Blood and whole Sacrifice or Offering of Christ , both in respect to the Blessed Testimony , Value and Efficacy thereof ; more than that of any other Saint or Saints , which manifestly differs from S. E.'s Expressions before cited . However , if I have not been thought plain enough in this matter , let me be allowed so much candor , as to be credited , in being more full and plain therein ; I disown his said comparison of the Blood of Christ , with that of another Saint ; and believe he was not in the Counsel or Wisdom of God therein , tho' I did charitably construe his meaning , with respect to the sincerity he had towards God , and his self denying crucified Life , and Testimony he bore for Truth , in divers sufferings and respects , ( and I believe he dyed in Peace ) tho' in some things he in his zeal was not guided in true Wisdom , which was his own weakness and personal Failure , not justly chargeable on us as a People , much less on our Principle or belief of the Spirit of Truth ; or , the infallible guidance thereof . Howbeit this Adversary appears so eagerly bent against us as a People , that he is willing to take any occasion to Defame and Brand us ; as in this very Passage which he calls , The Broad and Impious Blasphemy of Sol. Eccles. He Scornfully yet Bitterly reproaches us as a People , and my self in particular , in these Words , viz. There never was surely such a Company of good natur'd forgiving People ! They can slip over , cover and excuse the Lewdest Blasphemies in a Charitable way , &c. They can see no faults in their own Friends . G. W. says of this very Passage of Sol. Eccles. That it was so harmless as might have satisfied any spiritual or unbiassed Mind , p. 21. And that this is in his Light and Life , before quoted p. 58. Wherein he notoriously wrongs me and perverts my Words ; I did not call this very Passage ( or comparison of S. E's ) harmless , but his Words declaring his high esteem of the Blood of Christ , and of the new Covenant which was not his comparison of the Blood of Christ with that of another Saint , which I have disown'd . In my answer to W. Burnet , quoted , but lamely and partially cited , p. 22. 23. § . 5. I did not call Christ's outward material Blood a Type of the mystical Blood or Light within , as my answer is perverted , but closely pursued his Argument , with exceptions which he is not cleared from by this Advocate , his Argument is this , viz. All things under the Law in the Type were purged with Blood , and this Blood was material Blood and not mystical ; and that Blood that Christ shed in order to the effecting the Salvation of Man must needs be visible and material Blood. Which is to Argue thus , that because all things under the Law were purged with material Blood , and not mystical , Ergo the Blood of Christ which purgeth the Conscience and Effecteth the Salvation of Men , must needs be Material , and not Mystical . I still deny the inference , and my answer shews where and against what my Exceptions lye . The Types and Shadows under the Law , did both point at what was Material and what was Mystical in Christ : If the legal Sacrifices , were Types of Christ and so Mystical , as is confess'd p. 23. contrary to Burnets asserting them Material , not Mystical . As in his asserting , That 't was Material Blood , not Mystical , whereby all things under the Law were purged ; but now contrarywise those Sacrifices are granted to be Mystical , because Types of Christ , the Substance and Mystery of them . My Answer to Burnet's Argument , even in the first part , left out by this Adversary , is plain and clear , viz. As if one should reason , That because the Type was Material , visible , and not Mystical , therefore the Antitype or Substance must needs be Material and not Mystical ; by this all Mysteries of divine things are excluded from being either spiritual , the Antitype , or substance . Whereas it was the Heavenly things themselves that are in Christ , in which consists the substance and end of Types and Shadows . And my subsequent exceptions against the said Argument are as plain and unanswered ; That if the Antitype was Matterial and Mystical , because the Type or Shadow was Material , then this is like as to argue , That because Circumcision which was a Type , was Material or outward , therefore the Circumcision of the Spirit which is the Antitype of it , must needs be outward too , and not Mystical ; and thus he might as well reason touching all other Types and Shadows under the Law , and the Heavenly or good things to come Prefigured or Shadowed by them , That because the Priests under the Law , ( at the outward Tabernacle or Temple ) were Ministers of outward or Temporal things , Carnal Ordinances , Shadows , &c. Therefore those good things to come , which Christ was said to be the High Priest of , must needs be Temporal and not Mystical ; which to assert were absurd , &c. And I farther proceed in my Answer , about the Heavenly and Spiritual things which the Law had the Shadow of , viz. Whereas both the Heavenly and more perfect Tabernacle and Altar , with the Heavenly things , are all Mystery and Spiritual , the Offering and living Sacrifices are Spiritual , the Passover Spiritual , the Seed Spiritual , the Bread , the Fruit of the Vine , the Oyl , the Flesh and Blood which give Life to the Soul , yea , the Water and Blood which washeth and sprinkleth the Conscience are Spiritual and Mysterious , as the New Covenant it self is , which they belong to , and these things known in . And this is the New and Living way , which Christ set open through the vail of his Flesh , Heb. 10. Let him receive this who can . And if our Adversary and his abetters know no more of the Mystery of Christ's Blood or Work of purging and sprinkling the Conscience , than their profession and application of the Material Blood , without the sanctifying Spirit and Operation of it ; they may remain long enough with defiled Consciences , and full of Envy and Malice . That precious outward Offering and Blood of Christ outwardly shed , has long been greatly abused by misapplication , and the holy design and ends thereof perverted , by carnal Professors , to indulge themselves in Sin and Disobedience against Christ during Life . Now laying aside the Baptist's Argument aforesaid , I do grant that the Material Blood ( whereby all things under the Law were purged ) as it had the very Image of the Material Blood of Christ that was outwardly shed , it was Typical thereof . And that Blood of Christ including his whole Sacrifice , argued by the Apostle to the Hebrews as the Antitype , answering and fulfiling the Types thereof , and which were not only Types of that Blood and Sacrifice as outwardly offered , but also a shadow of the inward and spiritual sprinkling , purging and sanctifying of the Conscience , by Christ our High Priest , with his Blood and Spirit of Grace . The good things to come , which the Law had the shadow of , but not the very Image of them , were Heavenly and Spiritual things , Heb. 10. 1. But the Law had the very Image or Resemblance of the Material Blood of Christ that was shed , in that it had material Blood of Sacrifices , one Blood resembles another ; therefore that Material or Natural Blood outwardly shed , was not those Spiritual and Heavenly things which the Law had the shadow , and not the very Image of . The Material and Typical Blood whereby all things were purged under the Law was sprinkled on them by Moses and the High-Priest , therefore 't is Christ our High Priest , who sprinkles and effectually purgeth the Conscience , which he doth not Literally , but Spiritually , in which work his Spirit and Power is livingly concerned , as the efficient Cause , and his Blood and whole Sacrifice in preparing and making way for , and obtaining Redemption and Remission of Sins , received upon true repentance on our parts . It 's said , How much more shall the Blood of Christ , who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God , purge your Consciences from dead works to serve the living God , Heb. 9. 14. The value , efficacy and fruit of his offering himself without spot to God , is greatly or principally placed upon the eternal Spirit ; and so is the work of Sanctification and effectually purging the Conscience , both from dead works and the pollution of Sin. That which inwardly and effectually purgeth the Conscience , and sprinkles the heart from an evil Conscience , is the Spirit , the spiritual Vertue Blood and Life of Christ , that actually purgeth and cleanseth them from all Sin , who truly walk in his light , which has the sanctifying life and vertue in it . There was a kind of expiation and purging by way of Sacrifice under the Law and old Covenant , yet the Consciences thereby not purified nor made perfect . But the Expiation or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Purgation or Cleansing , Heb. 1. 3. That 's made and prepared by Christ himself and his Sacrifice , and the Covenant of Grace and Mercy ( wherein that work of Grace is fulfiled ) Sealed with his own Blood ; this reacheth the Conscience to a real purifying and perfecting thereof by the Spirit and Power of Christ. By one Offering he hath perfected for ever them that are Sanctified , whereof the Holy Ghost also is witness to us , Heb. 10. 14 , 15. Therefore that Expiation made by that most excellent Offering without us , is fulfilled by the Spirit in the work of Sanctification within us . We are delivered from the outward Law and the Curse of it by the Body of Christ , but are made free from the Law and Sin of Death by the Law of the Spirit and Life in Christ Jesus , Ro. 7. 4. & 8. 2. To that of Act 20. 28. The Church of God which he purchased with his own Blood. Hereupon the Man has some slight flings at me , but makes very little work on 't . As to my saying , The Blood of God ( which is God's own Blood , and whereby his Church is purchas'd ) must needs be spiritual , and the Covenant of God is inward and spiritual , and so is the Blood of it , consequently both Mystical . I did not hereby hold that God is either Material , or has a Material Body or Blood , but the contrary , that his own Blood whereby his Church is purchased is more than the Material or Natural Blood of Christ that was shed , though that was a part of the Sacrifice offered for Man's Redemption ; neither dare our Adversary say that Blood could be properly called God's own Blood ( unless he holds that God has a material Body and Blood ) no more than the Annotation thereupon , which saith , Of God's own Blood , that which appertaineth to Christ's humanity , is attributed to his Divinity , because of the Communion of properties and union of the two Natures in one Person . Which Notation or the Terms of it , I shall not now dispute . But I 'le take leave to explain my self farther for the spiritual vertue and mystery of God's own Blood ( and the Blood of his everlasting Covenant , the Blood of sprinkling therein , &c. ) wherehy God has purchased his Church . God's own Blood , was no less than his own dear Son , Christ himself : It was a manner of speaking , the Blood put for the whole Offering , the innocent Blood that Judas betrayed , was Christ himself , Mat. 27. 4. And the Ransom or Price given for Man's Redemption was Christ himself , who came to give his life for the Ransome of many , Matt. 20 28. And he gave himself a Ransome for all Men , to be testified of in due time , 1 Tim. 2. 6. God spared not his own Son , but delivered him up for us all . There 's a twofold work in the Redemption , that is by Jesus Christ , 1. By the Sacrifice and Mediation of Christ , general for all Men. 2. By his Power , Spirit and Life , actually freeing and delivering the truly believing Soul from Sin and from the Nature and Being of Sin and Condemnation , because thereof , in which sense God's Church was purchased with his own Blood , and in which last and special sense my Answer was intended , as not only by the natural or outward Blood shed , but principally by the spiritual Blood or Life of Christ Jesus . God's sparing not his own Son , but delivering him up for us all , includes the whole Sacrifice of Christ in Soul and Body which were offered ; therefore God's own Blood , is such an high and elegant Phrase , as bespeaks the great love of God in Christ , as the whole Ransom and Price of Man's Redemption , both outwardly and inwardly , outwardly by the Ransom given by Christ's Sufferings and Sacrifice , and inwardly , by the operation of his Life , Power and Spirit , which Mystically is that precious Blood , that is opposed to all corruptible things , which redeems from the vain Conversation , from all Iniquity , and effectually washeth and clcanseth us from our Sins , purgeth and sprinkles our Consciences , &c. And farther , to Answer to Types and Shadows under the Law , of shedding Blood and sprinkling , &c. That God according to his Mercy saved us by the washing of Regeneration , and renewing of the Holy Ghost , which he shed on us abundantly , through Jesus Christ our Saviour , Titus 3. 5 , 6. And I 'le sprinkle clean water upon them , and wash them from all their filthiness , saith the Lord. And the Blood of sprinkling which the spiritual believers were come unto , has the same effect . And if the name of Water be attributed to the Spirit , as it is , Jo. 7. 38 , 39. Light and Life , The name of Blood may also ; which is not to Allegorize away or invalidate the outward Blood or Sacrifice of Christ , or any part thereof ; yet the Mystery thereof , we may not deny , but confess . And according to the answers I have given for the Blood of Christ , and the Mystery thereof , our deceased Friend and Brother Robert Bercley expresly agrees , whose Testimony therefore I am the more willing to cite , because G. Keith has approved of his Works , p. 60. R. B's Testimony in his Works , p. 10. follows in these words , viz. This Blood ( speaking of the Blood of Christ that is healing , &c. ) is known and felt within to wash and purge the Conscience ; for Christ as he is within is not without his Blood which is Spiritual , even the pure Blood of the Vine , and is that Wine of the Kingdom which is inwardly felt to wash and to refresh , which he gives to them who know not distinctly the outward shedding of his Blood , as it was many hundred years ago , and which many are ignorant of , who have heard much of the outward shedding of his Blood , but know not the Blood as shed and poured forth in them , to sprinkle their Consciences from dead Works ; for it is a Mystery , sealed up from all who stand in opposition to his Light within . But there mark thy own Words ( saith he to his Opponent ) The Plaster must be applyed er'e the Sore be healed . Must not then saving Grace be applyed er'e the Soul be Converted or Healed ? And R. B. treats much more largely concerning the Flesh and Blood of Christ , to the same purpose as before cited ; for the Blood of Christ , as 't is Spiritual and Mysterious &c. p. 494. 495 , 496 , 497 , 498. upon his thirteenth Proposition of his Apology , and in page 494. He has recourse to Agustin , viz. § II. The Body then of Christ which Believers partake of , is Spiritual , and not Carnal ; and his Blood which they Drink of , is Pure and Heavenly , and not Humane or Elementary ; as Augustin also affirms , Ps. 98. Except a Man Eat my Flesh he hath not in him Life Eternal : And he saith , The Words which I speak unto you are Spirit and Life , understand spiritually what I have spoken : Ye shall not Eat of this Body which ye see , and Drink this Blood which they shall spill that Crucifie me . I am the living Bread which have dscended from Heaven ; He called himself the Bread who descended from Heaven , exhorting that we should believe in him , &c. Unto which I further add for Illustration , That the pure Blood of Grapes promised to Judah and Israel , Gen. 49. 11. Deut 32. 14. was Typical of this spiritual Blood and Fruit of the Heavenly Vine Christ Jesus , which truly relieves and comforts the afflicted and sorrowful Soul that comes unto him . And also the Milk and Honey , the Butter , Oyl , and Wheat , and other Temporal Blessings which were in the promised Land , were all Types of Christ and the spiritual Blessings received in him , in his Kingdom and Heavenly Canaan . And the Oyl and Wine which the Compassionate Samaritan poured into the Wounds ( of the Man that was wounded by Thieves and left half Dead ) Luke 10. 34 were also Typical of the healing Vertue , Life and spiritual Blood of Christ Jesus , which he graciously poureth into many wounded Souls . As concerning the word Personality and Personal Existence , as applyed to God and Christ ; I have sometimes questioned , as also the word Humane , as ascribed to the glorified Body of Christ , ( which is spiritual ) and also to his Soul or Spirit , for these reasons . 1. Because imposed on us by some Adversaries without Scripture proof of those terms , and not to Question Christ's glorious Manhood ; ( for in that sense I admit of , and sometime may use the word Humanity ; either for Man , or for the Good Nature and disposition of Man , as of the word Trinity for Three , being not willing to maintain contest about Words , but to mind the thing intended thereby . ) 2. Because false Arguments have been drawn thence against Christ and his Light in Man. 3. Because of the carnal Imaginations of too many thereof , who under pretence of expecting Christ to come again in the Flesh , in the same manner as he was on Earth , and to be seen with their carnal Eyes , neglect the introversion of their Minds to Christ's inward appearance in Spirit . 4. Because whilst Men feed upon such Notions and Imaginations of Christ , excluding him out of their Hearts , they exclude the living and Heart-purifying Faith of Christ , so that their Faith is but Dead and Fruitless , whilst such seem to adore . Christ as only an outward Christ , or as wholly without them , and not in them , instead of opening the Door of their Hearts unto him to let him in , they harbour and indulge their own Corruptions , Pride , Scorn , Envy and Covetousness , &c. in their Hearts , out of which proceed all these bitter Reproches , Revilings and Calumnies , which we meet with this Day , as heretofore . In all my former questioning their unscriptural terms ( who profess the Scriptures to be their only Rule ) ascribed to God and Christ , I never designed to deny his being our Mediator as Man , nor to oppose his coming in Power and great Glory , in his gloryfied spiritual Body , to Judge the Quick and the Dead in the last Day ; tho I have sometimes shunned controversy on that Point , and about the Resurrection and last Day of Judgment ; Urging not to put the day of the Lord afar off , nor to neglect the present day of their Visitation and Judgment of Christ , by his Spirit and Light within them . The Question how are the Dead raised and with what Body come they forth , I have often waved as unnecessary as well as unwarrantable , being reprehended in some , 1 Cor. 15. 35 , 26. I being willing to acquiesce in the will of God in that matter , to give a Body as it pleaseth him , and to every Seed it s own Body as proper thereunto , ver . 38. One thing I would be better understood in , Not having fully explained a Passage in that Book , Christ Ascended , Pref. and p. 67. Where 't is implied that we do not affirm Christ is in every Man , or that every Man hath the Son , but a measure of his Light , Grace or Heavenly Gift in all . Whereby is meant Christ in his fulness is not in any Man , nor revealed in every Man , nor is every Man in Christ. Neither is Christ in every Man , as he is in them in whom the Body is Dead because of Sin , Rom. 8. 10. But as a Light , as an Immortal Seed , as the Word , he is in some degree in every Man , but every Man is not in Christ as the new Creature is , and all true Believers who walk in his Light , are in him , and he in them . And for our endeavours to draw Peoples Minds off , from their carnal expectations of Christ's outward coming again in the Flesh ; or from resting upon a fleshly knowledge of him as come in the Flesh without them only , that their Minds may be turned to his Light and Grace within them , to know his Power and Work in them . This cannot be truly deemed any Antichristian Doctrin or Ministry , and we are sure G. K. did not so deem it heretofore , but the contrary ; see his Help in time of need , p. 22. This is the Antichrist who denies Christ the Son come thus in the Revelation of himself in the Heart , for that comeing of Christ in his Bodily appearance at Jerusalem , Antichrist will not , does not deny it , being he knows it will never harm his Kingdom , so to confess him come , provided Christ's Kingdom be not set up in the Heart . So that Antichrist's work now-a-days , is to oppose Christ's spiritual Coming and Kingdom ; and yet pretend to own his coming in the Flesh : Yet this greater subtility of Antichrist's work now than formerly , will not cover his evil designs ; but the true Seed Christ will prevail , and his Power reign over that Spirit of Antichrist , and Son of Perdition . Glory to God , and to the Lamb that sitteth upon the Throne . Some of the Author to the Snake in the Grass , his notorious Lyes and Perversions , gleaned out of his said Book , Satan Disrob'd . THat they ( i.e. Quakers ) have thrown off the Baptism of his ( i.e. Christ's ) Death , having renounced the benefit of his Death it self . Note , Which are both false ; Christ's Baptism into his Death , and the benefit thereof are very precious to us . 2. p. 24. That G. W. makes the Righteousness of God to be of the same kind and nature with ours , which is Blasphemy . Note , This is not true : Christ who is made of God unto us Righteous , hath brought us to deny our own Righteousness . 3. p. 28 , 29. That heavenly Body which they ( i.e. Quakers ) talk of , most of them understand nothing by it , but the Soul it self , or an heavenly frame or disposition of the Soul , which they think they have attained already . Note , These are not true , the heavenly Resurrection Body is not the Soul it self , but a Body which God giveth as it pleaseth him . 4. p. 29. Innumerable instances might be given of lying Prophesies , the rankest Treasons and Blasphemies pronounced in the name of the Lord. And this against the Quakers , these are outragious Aspersions and Slanders . 5. p. 30. That the coming ( i.e. of Christ ) to the future judgment , this he ( i.e. G. W. ) utterly denies . I take this to be an utter Falshood : I am not conscious of such denyal , by my questioning such a manner of coming again in the Flesh , as they carnally expected , to see with their carnal Eyes , who I answered about this point . 6. p. 30. That they mean that there is no visible coming of Christ , to be now looked for outwardly . What they mean by a glor●fied heavenly Body , not any thing either visible or intelligible . This is not true : The coming of Christ to Judgment in the great and last Day , will be both seen and understood , and so will the glorified Bodies of his Saints , I really believe . Pray observe what a storm of furious Rayleries and Falshoods this Author to the Snake , &c. vents against us and other Dissenters , as followeth , viz. 7. p. 33. The Year 1650. when our new Light arose in our Hemisphere , when ( the Church being pull'd down ) the vilest and most monstrous and numerous Spawn of Multifarious Sects , that ever the bottomless Pit spew'd forth at once , were with a thousand other Devils let loose among us ! a just punishment for our Schism and Rebellion ! And we are yet left to War with the Tayl of this Hydra , which is gathering new life , and if it should ( for our Sins ) prevail , our last State would be worse than the first . Who can refrain from indignation , to see such a conceited , senseless , most ignorant and blasphemous Crew , destitute of common modesty or shame , wipe their mouths , and gravely set up themselves above all the glorious Light of the Church Confessors and Martyrs , ever since the Apostles , whom they damn as Apostates . [ Which is a gross Lye. ] I forbear Answer to these Passages , because of the grosness , outrage , ralery and notorious Falshood thereof . 8. p. 34. Denial of these four great Essentials ( so call'd ) 1. Faith in Christ , as he outwardly suffered at Jerusalem to our Salvation . 2. Justification by his Blood outwardly shed . 3. The Resurrection of the Dead . 4. The future Judgment , unjustly charged ( and perversions alledged for proof . ) 'T is mis-construction and mis-application of Christ's Sufferings and Blood without the Spirit and Operation thereof within , that we deny and not the real living Faith in Christ , concerning any of these Points , which his Spirit reveals according to holy Scripture . 9. p. 35. He saith , And it is an horrible scandal that such should be suffered under the name Protestant . As 't is the People called Quakers , he chiefly smites at ; this appears to us a bold reflection upon the Government , for so esteeming and recognizing the said People by Law , as being Protestants . Whereas G. F. Question'd about the Soul , partly in the Terms of his Adversary , i.e. Is not that a part of God and of his Being , which came out from God ? ( viz. the Breath of Life ) God breathed into Man the breath of Life , and he became a living Soul , gr . myst . This I have more fully spoken to before , and I see no great cause the Man has to quarrel with the Passage , if rightly quoted [ only the words part of God , may seem somewhat uncouth , but they were first an Aposer's words , and admitted of as from him . The breath of Life , which God breathed into Man , whereby Man became a living Soul was intended by G. F. ] Seeing he who now quarrels with us , confesseth , Man's Soul was breathed from God , and made a glorious Image of him , and partook of many excellencies and endowments which were communicated by God unto it , all this the usual opinion doth ascribe to the Soul , p. 40. of Satan Disrob'd , That Man's Soul was Breathed from God , &c. I think this Confession , and that we are his Off-spring , Act. 17. 28. is much of the same import , or near as high as what G. F. said or intended , if rightly considered ; and therefore this opposer might have spared his many Reflections in this Point . Some gleanings of Lyes , Slanders and Perversions , out of the Some Gleanings of the Author to the Snake in the Grass , returned and recharged upon him ; with brief Remarks upon them . 1. GReat Ignorance charg'd on the generality of the Quakers and that many of them do at this day plainly own the most Blasphemous ●nd Heretical Doctrins , that have been objected against them . And that such Heresies have been taught among them , and are still so understood by their People , and that vehemently , p. 1 , 2. These superlative Charges of Blasphemous Heresies , as own'd and taught among the said People , are denyed as most gross Calumnies and Abuses against them . 2. That a present Preacher of theirs , ( i.e. Quakers ) This very Year being pressed to acknowledge the Man Christ without us , and the necessity of Faith in him . Answered , The Man Christ , a F — rt . Horrid ! This we suspect , and question the Truth of it , however we deny the expression with abhorrence , and the unjust injurious improvement he makes of it , and the subsequent stories , as 3. That the said Preacher of the Quakers denyed that Christ's body rose out of the Grave , that our bodies should rise , that there would be any general Judgment , or that the Scriptures were all true . The improvement made of these stories questioned by us , is , This is a Teacher , thus he has been Taught , and thus he Teaches others . And it is no wonder , that they who are thus Taught , to believe no outward Christ now in being , should use him with the utmost contempt , and his Worshippers with the greatest severity , as being the grossest sort of Idolaters to worship a dead God , p. 2. Note , 1. We question the Truth of the particular stories , and deny that the Quakers have , or own any such Preachers , as are justly chargeable with such contempt of the Man Christ without us , or denyal of his Resurrection or general Judgment . 2. We neither own nor know , any such Doctrin among us , as to deny any outward Christ , or Christ without us now in Being , or to use him with contempt . These we look on as gross Lyes , which seem somewhat generally to affect us as a People , i. e. the Quakers , their Faith in an inward Christ , viz. their Light within , being thereupon reflected on , as in opposition to the Man Christ without ; when he can neither demonstrate nor disprove their Light , nor their Faith therein . 4. That they ( i.e. the Quakers ) reckon their own Blood to be the Blood of Christ , and to be that Blood , which cleanseth from Sin , p. 3. Which is a gross Falshood . 5. Their ( i.e. the Quakers ) frequent Idolatries to G. F. giving him the Titles and Attributes of God , falling prostrate before him , and adoring him with these Appellations , Thou art the Son of the everlasting God , the King of Israel , all Nations shall worship thee , &c. p 3. We question these stories , we denying all Idolatry , and all such Attributes and Adoration to any Mortal . 6. That the Quakers had vilely cast away the great Fundamentals of the Christian Religion , p. 5. 7. The Quakers fasly charged with rage against G. K. p. 5. Which are both vile Lyes . 8. That they are forced at last to a feigned complyance with the Doctrin that he Teaches , i.e. by the Truths which he contends for prevailing against them . Which is falsly stated against us , the Truth 's prevalency upon us , has not been by his contradiction , neither can we own all for Truth which he contends for . His great instability , and late contradictions to his former and latter Testimonies , both in behalf of the People called Quakers and their Principles are very Notorious to every rational person , that reads the Collections thereof , in Tho. Ellwood's , John Pennington's ( and others ) Answers and Replies to him . 9. A Blasphemous bantring Paper , ( he tells of i.e. G. F. 's ) turning the Christ to the Light within , which will bring you off all the Worlds teachers and ways , &c. but shews not wherein the Blasphemy is . And we know no such Phrase as turning the Christ to the Light within , but that Christ is the Light of the World , &c. 10. If he ( i.e. W. Rogers ) had said Christ was no more than another Man , he had come off and been excused by the whole fraternity and reverenced , as well as Sol. Eccles. p. 8. [ What a Lying imagination and gross piece of Forgery is this ! ] They ( i.e. Quakers ) refrained not to Print and Publish every day , most virulent Invectives against other Protestants , and dispers'd them by order of the yearly Meeting , p. 9. These are notorious Lyes . 12. That the Quakers are not concerned at the intollerable and blasphemous contempt of the holy Bible , ( which he charged a prophane Papist A. S. withal , as calling that Book , their unjust , corrupt and perverse Bible ) which was grosly Blasphemous indeed , but then unjustly to hang this upon the Quakers . He says J. Cole declares , That they are not at all concerned . He insults , This is a strange story and incredible , That ever Jos. Cole insulted in any such Blasphemous contempt of the Protestant Bible , as to our being not at all concerned , so we are not in any such contempt , no , farr be it from us . Josiah Cole is so far from joyining with the said A. S. that he Writes in Testimony against him , by way of Answer to his Pamphlet , as finding him therein smiting at the People called Quakers , and endeavouring to render them odious , by affirming , That they are led by a deluding Spirit , &c. So that Josiah Cole had no reason to joyn with him , or take his part against any sincere Protestants , Whore unvail'd , p. 57. Our Accuser proceeds farther upon the said story , which he would turn upon the Quakers , viz. 13. p. 9 , 10. Now why should these Men be reputed Protestants , they count themselves none of us , who are not concerned on our part , no , not against the Church of Rome ; but draw their Arms against us , who joyn with them , not only against our Ministers , but our Bibles . [ Here are Lyes , and gross Calumnies accumulated against us ] Why should these be reputed as Christians ? Can they be Christians who Blaspheme the Bible ? Answer No , but these are horrid and gross slanders against the Quakers , who have approved themselves both better Protestants and Christians than their Persecutors , and such a Persecuting , Sculking Adversary as this our Accuser , who seems strenuously to seek our ruin , by endeavouring to murther our Christian and Civil Reputations ; but to us it is no more than the hissing of The Snake in the Grass , or like one that whispers out of the ground . And his next Charge is also grosly false , as 't is intended against us , viz. 14. Surely their Light within is Darkness , who joyn with the most ignorant and bigotted of the Romish Emissaries against our Bible , p. 10. Quere , When , or where , do the Quakers so joyn with those Emissaries ? I take this to be a most gross and foul piece of Forgery and Calumny . 15. Our Accuser gives high , and superlative commendations of John Pennyman , as an ancient , worthy and most sincere honest Gentleman , who ( he says ) had been inveigl'd with their false shew and pretences to Piety , remained zealous in their Communion , and suffered with them , till he discovered the grossest Immoralities among them , lying , cheating and foul uncleanness , which having complained of , and otherwise represented to their superiours , tho' the fact could not be denyed , yet they would not censure any that continued in their Vnity , for which reason , he ( after long strugling with them , to amend their scandalous vices ) at last left them , p. 10. As his Character of the said J. P. in the superlative degree , appears a piece of flattery , insincere and unmerited , his scandalous stories on his behalf , and reason of his leaving us , appear neither true nor impartial : I never heard of any undeniable proof of the matter of fact from J. P. and I am sorry , that in his old Age , he should give such occasion to such malicious , persecuting Adversaries as this , to reproach us , in this manner , as if we did indulge and hold unity with such Persons guilty of the grossest Immoralities , lying , cheating and foul uncleanness . Will J. Pennyman adventure to stand by these stories and aggravations against us ? I question it : And he knows better the reason of his leaving us , than the account before , and what offence he took at our Friends Paper , that was published to clear us from the great Offence and Reproach he gave by his notorious unwarrantable attempt at the Exchange , and how he was committed thereupon , I am not willing now to repeat it upon him . I would not have him think that I am in any Revenge or Rage against him ( as we are unjustly charged ) neither would I have him dye in enmity or uncharitableness against us . And suppose he has espied out any particular miscarriages , that 's no just cause of his leaving our Communion , much less of turning open Enemy against us : Or if such miscarriages have not been judicially proved before those called our Superiors , their not Censuring the parties accused to Excommunication , for want of such proof , was no just cause of his leaving our Communion , or turning Adversary to defame us . 16. That we recommend the most virulent of Rome's invectives against the Protestants and their Bible too , p. 10. Is a gross Falshood ; we know no such Recommendation . 17. How tame is the Church of England that suffers Fox 's Journal to be newly Printed and presented to the Vniversity of Oxford , and many other of the Quaker Prophets to be printed , &c. p. 11. Which unjustly implies some great Crime and Iniquity in the said Journal , and a great offence to this Persecutor , that we are not held under severe Restraint and Persecution , that he and such persecuting Incendiaries may have liberty without controul to Asperse and Misrepresent us , and we none to defend our Innocency , which is high Injustice . 18. That the Quaker Prophets cast the utmost contempt upon the Person of Jesus our God , p. 11. Which is a most odious Calumny . 19. That by the Register of their Sufferings ( i.e. Quakers ) they hope to make their Sufferings for the Truth ( as they call it ) to exceed all the Ten Persecutions ; and to be more undeserv'd than the Sufferings of Christ himself , or of the Apostles , p. 11. These are gross and notorious false Suggestions , we have no such hopes . He cites E. B. unfairly and partially in this Point , and yet the Comparison about the Sufferings of the People of God in this Age , as greater or more unjust than in the Days of Christ , or the Apostles , or since , is a mistake , we shall not stand by the Comparison ; whether 't was so first verbally stated by E. B. himself , or by some mistake since , I shall not undertake to determin , unless I see his original Copy . However we are clear'd from either magnifying our Sufferings above Christ's or his Apostle's , &c. For we do prefer Christ's Sufferings before all other Mens , and that he was wholly Innocent , and unduly and unjustly Prosecuted and put to Death by wicked Hands , who were justly charged with Murther therein . This Point is farther cleared on our parts , in The Quakers Vindication against F. Bugg's Calumnies , p. 2. Col. 1. One Sheet . But I think this Author of The Snake in the Grass has more justified the Act of Christ's Persecutors and Murtherers ( and consequently undervalued his Innocency in his Sufferings ) than ever the Quakers did , where he reflects upon G. Whitehead's Argument , That Killing of Christ outwardly being the Act of wicked Men , could be no meritorious Act , Satan Disr . Glean . p. 5. This he retorts as my Argument , but does not answer or refute it , and I am of the same mind still , that the Merit , and what was Meritorious was in Christ's Obedience and Humility in his suffering to Death ; and not in the Act of wicked Men in Killing and Murthering him , Acts 7. 52 & Acts 2. 23. And if this Adversary be of the contrary opinion let him speak out and plainly tell us , if he believes that the Act of wicked Men in Murthering the Just one , was a meritorious Act. 20. Many of them ( i.e. Quakers ) suffer'd ( not so much as they deserved ) for open and notorious Blasphemy , p. 12. Which is a gross Calumny and Scandal , undeserv●dly cast upon them , and is a plain indication of this Accuser's great malice , cruelty and persecuteing Spirit . 21. That the hardship of Imprisonments ( which many of the poorer sort of them ( i.e. Quakers ) did suffer ; was the greatest of their Sufferings , p. 13. Which is a great Falshood . Imprisonment was not the greatest of their Sufferings , or of their Hardships . But the strait and close confinements duress and hardships which many suffered in noisom Goals , whereby many lost their Lives , and many their Healths impaired , besides spoil of Goods ruining Families , and divers banished out of their native Countries into foreign Islands and parts beyond Seas , as also cruel Whippings , Beatings , Stonings and other Barbarities which many have suffered from Persecutors , pretending for the Church ; these hardships were more than mere Imprisonments : To the shame of this Persecutor and the rest of his cruel Fraternity be it Spoken . His contemning and undervaluing our Sufferings will not extenuate their Cruelty and Persecution . 22. That Isaac Pennington in his considerations concerning Israel , p. 3. gives that ( i.e. the Light within ) the preference to the dispensation of M●ses or of Christ , p. 14. Which is false in the last ; for Christ and his Light within are not divided , nor is his Light preferred to him , nor do we prefer any other Light than that of Christ to Moses's or any other dispensation or Ministry . 23. That our Friends leave out whole Baskets full of hideous Blasphemies and Treasons , i.e. out of the reprinted Works of their Prophets ( p. 14. ) Which is a most hideous and sordid Callumny . 24. That Edw. Burrough in his Epistle prefixed to G. F 's Great Myst. ( p. 7. ) extends this ( i.e. Infallible discerning Spirit ) to all and every of the Quakers ; To us ( says he ) every one of us in particular . And this Light gav● us to discern between Truth and Error , between every false and right way , and it perfectly discovered to us the true state of all things , p. 20. Upon perusal of the place quoted in the said Epistle , I do not find that E. B. extends the gift of discerning , to all and every of the Quakers , nor the discovery of the true state of all things ; herein are his words and intention perverted , tho' he confesses that every one has a true Light given by Christ , but not that every one has attained to the same gift of discerning of Spirits and States , Observe , 1. E. B. personates the converted and faithful among the Quakers , who walk in the Light which gives to discern between Truth and Error , the Right and the Wrong way ; for whatsoever things are reproved are made manifest by the Light. 2dly , The perfect discovery of the true state of all Things , He does in the place quoted , restrict to the discovery of the Fall and restoration of Man , and to what 's needful for Man to know ( i.e. in respect to Salvation . ) Epis. to Gr. Myst. ( p. 7 , 8. ) We are not to suppose that By discovery of the true state of all things , he intended to ascribe Omnisciency to us Creatures , no more than the Holy Apostle John did in the like Expressions . 1 John 2. 20. But ye have an Vnction from the Holy One , and ye know all Things . And verse 27. But as the same Anointing teacheth you of all Things , and is Truth and is no Lye. These were all things needful for their Salvation and preservation in Christ Jesus . And herein in this divine Unction , and the teachings thereof stands the Infallibility , Certainty or assurance we plead for , and not in Man's Will , Wisdom , Parts , or Acquirements . And as we keep in this Anointing received from the Holy One , we receive its Teachings which are true and certain , and so fa● partake of Certainty or Infallibility in what it Teacheth , being Truth and no Lye. But if any go from this Anointing into the Will or Wisdom of Man or carnal Reasonings , they go into uncertainty and so become fallible and subject to fall into Error ; erring from this certain Principle produceth Error both in Judgment and many times in Practice . For 't is He that abideth in Christ that sinneth not , 1 Joh. 3. 6. And those in whom this divine A●ointing did abide who were taught by it , As it taught them they did abide in him , i.e. in the Son of God , ch . 2. 27. Who saith , abide in me and I in you , John 15. 4. I find this Author to the Snake in the Grass , is very apt frequently to misrepresent our Friends Words , which I cannot impute so much to his Ignorance , as Envious design to make us as Infamous and Odious as he can . As he had dealt by E. B. in the passage before , he has in like manner serv'd Francis Howgil in his Preface to the Snake in the Grass , ( p. 244. ) Which I did not so much search or remark in the foregoing Answer , as since . He charges F. H. with Blasphemy , quoting , p. 232. of his Works , intitled , The Dawning of the Gospel-day , where he saith , He that hath the Spirit of God , is in THAT which is Equal ( i.e. as follows ) he that is join'd to the Lord , is one Spirit , there is Unity , and the Unity stands in Equality it self . Hence ( and on some other words curtaliz'd and mangl'd ) the said Author infers , viz. 25. Having thus made themselves Equal to God in very Nature , it is not strange to see them denying any other God or Christ but themselves ; they pull God out of Heaven , &c. Snake , p. 245. These Blasphemous and general Inferences against the Quakers , as they are utterly denyed by us , I find no just occasion for them , from F. H' s Words , if truly cited and considered , where he places the Equality between the Father , Son and Holy Spirit : That which is Equal , he plainly speaks of the Spirit of God in the place quoted , and by the Unity [ stands in Equality it self ] he means no other , than that the Saints Vnity stands in Christ , who is Equal with the Father , according to Christ's own Prayer , John 17. 21. That they all may be one , as thou Father art in me , and I in thee , that they also may be one in us . And verse 22. And the Glory which thou gavest me , I have given them , that they may be One , as we are One. And verse 23. I in them , and thou in me , that they may be made perfect in one . That F. H. places the Equality in the Son of God , and on his part , is evident by his following Words , ( left out by the said Author ) viz. He that is born from above , is the Son of God , and he said , I and my Father are one ; and when the Son is reveal'd and speaks , the Father speaks in him , and dwells in him , and he in the Father . Now , though the Saints cannot claim to themselves that Equality the Son of God ( who is their Head ) hath ; yet who can in Truth deny their being made Partakers of the Divine Nature and Union in Christ Jesus , and holy Spirit with the Father ? The account which this Author of the Snake hath given against Tho. Curtis , p. 20 , 21 , 22. which he saith , he has seen under the hand of W. Clark , I do somewhat Question the Truth of divers Passages in it , as whether T. C. is not therein mis-represented ; though I cannot from my own knowledge refute them , yet 't is very strange that T. C. should be represented so very grosly Ignorant , as in that said Account , ( but I am sure 't is a gross Lye , that the Quakers do hold , or have always held these Heresies charged on him ) or that G. Keith should suffer him to be so foully expos'd in print ; if he was privy thereto , I am apt to think 't was a piece of great Incivility , as well as Ingratitude and Treachery against T. C. to serve him such an ill turn . 26. That he would not lessen the Sufferings of the Quakers , ( p. 13. ) is a notorious Falshood , as his scoffing at , and vilifying them , and rendring many of them to have suffer'd for open and notorious Blasphemy ( p. 12. ) doth evince . 27. That Mary Fell , after she was Married to G. F. became the Mother of the Quakers Church , ( p. 17. ) is a scornful Falshood , we have not given her , or any other Woman that Title ; though she and many more faithful Women have been own'd as Mothers in Israel ; but Jerusalem , that is above , the Mother of us all . 28. That many of the generality of the Quakers do stick in the very bottom of that sink of Heresies , which they have been taught ; and that their Leaders go about to justify , excuse and pallitate them , ( p. 18 ) These proceed from the Sink of his gross Calumnies and Malice . 29. That the Quakers yearly Epistle , directed to all Quakers throughout the World , is their supream Law , ( p. 18. ) is false again , we know no such Epistle , that is so esteem'd our supream Law ; but rather Epistles proceeding from our supream Law of Love. 30. That 't is only for placing their Faith in the outward Jesus , that the Quakers have so condemned them , ( i.e. the Priests ) ( p. 19. ) This is not true again , 't is not for placing their Faith ( if it were really so ) in an outward Jesus , or rather Jesus without them ; but for their dead Faith without Christ , and without Works and Fruit ; and their many Corruptions , as Pride , Covetousness , Persecution , &c. as justly Chargeable on many of them . His story about one Archer in Wilts , questioning , whether he was not among the Quaker-Bishops , who compos'd this last general Council ? ( p. 19. ) is very scurrilous and false , as it is turned to affect the Quakers . We don't understand he was here at London , the last Yearly Meeting . The other story thereupon concerning the said Archer , That the Knaves of that Country [ after his Wickedness ] forced him to shift his Quarters , and that then he came up to London , to which the other Quakers gave the right hand of Fellowship ; and that there he Preach'd and exercised his Talent with great Approbation , p. 19 , 20. Though we have heard of such an one's miscarriage , yet I have enquir'd , and am perswaded , the latter part of the story is a great Forgery , to scandalize the Quakers , that either they gave him the right hand of Fellowship , or that he preached at London with great Approbation , after he fled upon discovery ; this is a very unlikely story , basely designed to cast Dirt upon us ; for the World well knows our Christian care to expunge such from our Society , upon the knowledge of their Enormities ; but whether there be the like care and practice in this Authors Church , he may consider if he will. Reader , I Have in this precedent Examination , passed by a great many more false Aspersions , Calumnies and Perversions cast upon my self and divers others in the said Book , Satan Disrob'd ; being not willing to undertake a full Answer to it , nor to spend more time in raking in such dirty Kennels of Lyes and Abuses , as the Books of the said Author are stuff'd withal against us , &c. There are also many Falshoods , foul Perversions , Charges and Reflections , in The Snake in the Grass , not particularly Remarked in the foregoing Antidote , and in particular divers Passages , relating to the Revolution of Governments in the Nation ; the substance whereof , I long since fully Answer'd to John Pennyman's Invectives . My Answer is Intitul'd , Christ's Lambs defended from Satan's Rage , Printed for Tho. Northcott in George-Yard , in Lumbard-street , London . 'T is observable , that the said Author of The Snake in the Grass , values himself much upon that Title to several of his Books against us ; but upon the Readers perusal of these already Answered , it will appear , that Title will be his great Disgrace and Infamy ; seeing that he has merited the Character of a Hatcher of Cockatrice Eggs , as well as the Author of The Snake in the Grass : Which Title , he may be as horribly asham'd of , as afraid to expose his real name and place . Some notice taken of the said Author's Discourse for Water Baptism . HAving lately seen and received a Book stiled , A Discourse proving the divine Institution of Water-Baptism , &c. By the Author of The Snake in the Grass , and finding these Passages after the Contents , viz. That there will be published a Discourse by the same Author , shewing , whom Christ hath ordain'd to Administer the Sacraments in his Church And another , . wherein is proved , that the chief of the Quakers Heresies , were broached and condemn'd in the days of the Apostles , and in the first 150 Years after Christ. To the latter part whereof , I must tell him , and Advertise the Reader , that this officious Author should have spared his other Discourse , thus Charging the Quakers with Heresies , so long since broached and condemned , until he had seen an Answer to his Snake in the Grass , wherein he hath most unjustly and falsly Charged the Quakers with numerous Heresies and Errors ( as also he hath in divers things very falsly aspers'd them in this Discourse . ) And if he repeat the same again upon us , ( as it may be suspected ) to prove them so long since broached and condemned ; this will add nothing of proof , that we the People called Quakers are guilty thereof , but only serve to shew his own Malice and Impertinency and gross Calumnies already confuted ▪ Upon the viewing his said Discourse for Water-Baptism , I find nothing material , but what is mostly answer'd in the foregoing Antidote , and Book therein referred unto in page 126. Besides , I find him very much imposing and begging the Question in his said Discourse , 1st . Pleading for Infant Baptism in his Preface , as being the outward Seal of Christ's Covenant , ( but without Scripture proof ) and then flees to the Baptists Arguments , for Baptizing Believers or People Docible , from Mat. 28. and other Scriptures , which they use to urge in opposition to sprinkling Infants . He miserably imposes in placing upon outward Baptism , all these Priviledges , viz. Regeneration , or being Born into the Church , Baptizing into the Christian Faith , ( p. 9 , 10. ) The Promise of the Inward Baptism of the Holy Ghost , ( p. 12. ) Calling the outward , The means whereby we are made partakers of the inward , and whereby the inward Baptizm of the Holy Ghost is given , p. 34 , 60. All this he places upon outward Baptism with Water : But then it must be upon the duly receiving thereof , ( p. 12. ) wherein he hath before included Infants as well as others , but all this without Scripture Proof . Now if all those Infants that are Sprinkled or Baptized be Regenerated and Born again and Baptized into the Faith , and partakers of the Holy Ghost and the Baptism thereof ; How will this agree or consist with their Preaching the necessity of Regeneration , and the new Birth to such when docible , seeing he saith , a Man can be but once Regenerated , ( p. 9. ) I find that when he pleads for Baptizing Believers , ( p. 23. ) he cannot escape the Baptist's Arguments , altho' he hath reviled them as badly in a manner as he hath done us , as is before shewed . I find that Text , 1 Cor. 1. 17. doth Puzzle him , esteeming it an obscure Text , p. 22. Which is , Christ sent me not to Baptize , &c. and he is very impertinent , and begging the Question in his Answer to it . But while he Argues with the Baptists Arguments for Believers Baptizm , I take it for granted , that he Argues for that , which he and his Brethren the Clergy are out of the practice of , and therefore insincere , and consequently his Works deserves to be rejected whilst Infants are the Subjects chiefly intended . He bitterly exclaims against both Presbyterians , Independents , Anabaptists , Quakers , Socinians , Vnitarians , Latitudinarians and Deists , &c. in his Preface , as being the Spawn of Rebellion and multifarious Schism , ( and especially against the Presbytery in Scotland ) either for their Indifferency or disuse of Water Baptizm , &c. See what a busy Agent this is , as if he would have his Hand against every Man : But I must leave him for others concerned to deal with him , if they see it worth their Time and Labour : I having bestowed more for the Truth sake ( and for the sake of many more sincere than himself ) than he or his Works deserve . G. W. The Contents of the foregoing Treatise . WHat Characters are given against the People called Quakers , by The Snake in the Grass , examined . Page . 1 to 12. A Catalogue of some abuses against the said People . 13 to 49. Concerning Tithes , and a Popish Plea for the same , confuted by Martyrs and primitive Protestants . 17 to 23. A false Charge against G. Fox , &c. Examin'd and Answer'd . 25 , 26. Of the Man Christ , his Body and Blood. 29 to 35. Of the holy Scriptures , how own'd by the People called Quakers , and they cleared from Calumnies in that point . 35 , 36. 40 , 41. Our Accusers Hiporitical Prayer . ● 37. Of Christs ' Body , Flesh ( the Vail ) and Blood. 38 , 39. For the divine authority of the H. Scriptures . 42 , 43. Our Adversarys false pretence of kindness . 44 , 45. Christ's existence or being , and how he is in us . 45 , 46. Of the Quakers general Answer to the seven Queries , and of G. Keith's abuse thereupon . 46 to 49. The second part begins , with Reflection upon the Presbyterians , Independents and the Quakers , rendering them all obnoxious , &c. 50 51. The Quakers clear'd from the Arians Heresie . 52 53. An unjust comparison and railery against the Quakers 54 , 55. Both Presbyter , Anabaptist , Independent and Quakers , scandalized , and their liberty envied , by the Author of The Snake in the Grass . 56 , 57. Popish Emissaries no promoters of Quakerism , 57 , 58. Of the more peculiar Titles of Christ not given to us . 59 , 60. Of the Soul of Man being created , and the divine breath or Spirit of Life , which God breathed into Man. 61 , 62. Of Infallibily and Omnisciency 62 63. Of the Light given of God to our Souls . 63 to 66. Of discerning of Spirits , how a gift . 67 to 72. Occasion given us to reflect on the incontinency of Priests . 73 , 74. The said Authors general and false Charge about one false Prophet , and Story of a Glover in Cheapside , &c. 75 to 78. His Reflection upon all dissenting Protestants , and pleading for Bishops , wicked Priests and persecuting Kings . 78 to 80. Our Friends misrepresented about G. K. and of the Text , 1 Jo. 1. 7. 81 , 82. Of our preferring the Spirit to the Letter , no contempt of Holy Scripture . 82 to 86. Of Enthusiasm as charg'd against the Quakers . 86 to 89. Of Womens Preaching , and Womens Meetings . 89 , 90. Our Doctrin concerning the Light within , vindicated and opened . 90 to 99. The Quakers vindicated from several Blasphemous Charges , as assuming divine Attributes , divine Worship , divine Honour . 99 to 101. Of the Resurrection , Heaven and Glory , how Scripturally confessed and believed by us . 102 to 111. Of the Sacraments so called , first of the Supper , second of Baptism . 111 to 126. Concerning the satisfaction of Christ. 127 to 135. Concerning the holy Trinity . 135 to 140. For the Divinity and Incarnation of Christ also . 140 to 155. Some Remarks by the Author of the Snake against G. Whitehead , examined , as about Christ , the holy Scriptures , the Word , the Light , &c. 155 to 178. The words , Type , Figure , Shape , Example , Vail , most holy places , both in the old and new Covenant opened . 174 to 182. A brief Examination of some passages in the second Book , still'd , Satan Disrob'd . 185. Some reasons for excepting against the Term Co-creator . 188 to 191. Of the Soul and Incarnation of Christ. 191 to 193. A question about the manner of some Men's carnally looking for Christ to Salvation , who neglect his inward appearance ; and for what end his spiritual Appearance is truly expected . 193 to 197. Of Christ as at God's right hand , and in his People . 197 to 199. Of Christ's Appearance at the great day in his glorious spiritual Body , and of the Resurrection Bodies . 199 to 207. Of Christ's existence in Heaven , as at the right hand of God , and of God's Omni-presence , and indweling in his People . 207 to 209. Of the pure Nature of Christ , and of some sin-pleasing notions repugnant thereto , and to his inward Appearance and Operations of his Spirit . 209 to 212. Of the Historical Faith of Christ's death for Sinners , and the saving Faith in his Light. 212 to 217. Christ's obedience unto death for us Meritorious , but not the Act of wicked hands , either in murthering him , or sheding his blood by the Spear upon the Cross. 217 to 220. The price and work of our Redemption by Jesus Christ. 220 to 221. Of the Object and Foundation of true Faith in Christ , and of his blood that was shed ; an unwarrantable comparison disown'd concerning the same . 221 to 225. Of the material , and mystical blood of Christ , and the Type thereof , and shadow of Heavenly things which the Law had . 227 to 231. Of God's own blood , Acts 20. 28. And Redemption explained with respect both to the Sacrifice and Work of Christ. 232 to 237. Of the words Personality , Personal , Existence and Humane , as ascribed to Christ , &c. why question'd , Christ's coming to Judgment , the Resurrection , &c. how own'd . 237 to 240. Some notorious Lyes and Perversions , gleaned out of the said Book , Satan Disrobed . 241 to 245. Some gleanings of Lyes , Slanders and Perversions , out of the some gleanings of the Author to The Snake in the Grass , recharged on him . 246 to 263. Some notice taken of the said Author's Discourse for Water-Baptisn . 266. &c. FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65834-e2080 Snake , p. 93 , 94. Notes for div A65834-e6680 Sn. p. 1. In his Sect. 1. * The Act of shedding that outward Blood was by the Spear which the Soldier thrust into his Side : How proves he that Act cleanseth from Sin ? * See T. Godwyn's Moses and Aaron , treating of the Passover , &c. and Christ's answering the same in his Supper , Exod. 12. Mat. 26. 18 , 19. Luke 22. 8. to ver . 15. Notes for div A65834-e29120 1. p. 20. 
A65868	----	The he-goats horn broken, or, Innocency elevated against insolency & impudent falshood in answer to two books against the people of God called Quakers : the one intituled, A fuller discovery, which is stuffed with such a multitude of lyes, slanders, and perverting the truth, as the like hath not been extant : the authors of which are John Horn, Thomas Moore Senior, and Thomas Moore Junior : and the other book is falsely called truth's triumph by John Horn : which are answered for the information of the people, and the clearing of the servants of God, and the way of truth to the simple hearted from the lyes, delusions and fallacies that have proceeded from the spirit of Antichrist and blasphemy, in these men aforesaid, who profess themselves ministers of Christ but are proved ministers of Satan and unrighteousness / by a witness of Christ and his work against all the works of darkness, G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A65868 of text R38606 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing W1933). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 151 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 32 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A65868 Wing W1933 ESTC R38606 17806908 ocm 17806908 106642 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65868) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 106642) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1109:16) The he-goats horn broken, or, Innocency elevated against insolency & impudent falshood in answer to two books against the people of God called Quakers : the one intituled, A fuller discovery, which is stuffed with such a multitude of lyes, slanders, and perverting the truth, as the like hath not been extant : the authors of which are John Horn, Thomas Moore Senior, and Thomas Moore Junior : and the other book is falsely called truth's triumph by John Horn : which are answered for the information of the people, and the clearing of the servants of God, and the way of truth to the simple hearted from the lyes, delusions and fallacies that have proceeded from the spirit of Antichrist and blasphemy, in these men aforesaid, who profess themselves ministers of Christ but are proved ministers of Satan and unrighteousness / by a witness of Christ and his work against all the works of darkness, G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 63 p. Printed for Robert Wilson ..., London : 1660. Imperfect: p. 33-40 faded, with some print show-through. Reproduction of original in the Huntington Library. eng Horn, John, 1614-1676. -- Fuller discovery of the dangerous principles and lying spirit of the people called Quakers made manifest. Horn, John, 1614-1676. -- Truth's triumph over deceit. Moore, Thomas, -- Senior. -- Fuller discovery of the dangerous principles and lying spirit of the people called Quakers made manifest. Moore, Thomas, -- Junior. -- Fuller discovery of the dangerous principles and lying spirit of the people called Quakers made manifest. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. A65868 R38606 (Wing W1933). civilwar no The he-goats horn broken. Or, Innocency elevated against insolency & impudent falshood. In answer to two books against the people of God cal Whitehead, George 1660 30012 31 25 0 0 0 0 19 C The rate of 19 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2005-01 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion The He-Goats Horn Broken . OR , INNOCENCY Elevated Against Insolency & Impudent FALSHOOD . In Answer to two Books against the People of God called Quakers . The one intituled , A FULLER DISCOVERY , which is stuffed with such a multitude of Lyes , Slanders , and perverting the Truth , as the Like hath not been extant : The Authors of which are John Horn , Thomas Moore Senior , and Thomas Moore Junior . And the other Book is falsely called TRUTH' 's TRIUMPH by JOHN HORN . Which are Answered for the Information of the People , and the clearing of the servants of God , and the way of Truth to the simple hearted from the Lyes , Delusions and Fallacies that have proceeded from the Spirit of Antichrist and Blasphemy , in these ●●n aforesaid , who Profess themselves Ministers of Christ , but are proved Ministers of Satan and Unrighteousness . By a witness of Christ and his work against all the Works of Darkness . G. W. In vain have the Wicked exalted their Horn against the Righteous . LONDON , Printed for Robert Wilson , at the Sign of the Blackhead Eagle and Windmill , in Martins near Aldersgate , 1660. A PREFACE . OH ! how great hath the wrath of the Dragon that old Serpent , who is the Father of Lyes been against the Seed which God hath Raised up and Indued with his Power from on High , and yet this Seed hath Dominion over all the strength and wrath of the wicked One , to lift up a Standard against him even when he Appears and breaks forth as a flood against the Lord and his Anointed ; against whom no Iniquity nor Enmity can prevail or Prosper , and this hath the Lord God of Hosts made us Witnesses of to his Eternal Praise , that it is no marvell to us that the Generation of Vipers and Serpents , ( who are Warring for the Kingdom of Darkness ) do put forth their stings , and cast out their Vennome against us , since that in the Power of God we are brought to tread upon them and their deceits : and if the Readers hereof have a single eye to the Lord in his Light in them , they 'l see what a Body of Wickedness and Enmity hath Appeared in these our Opposers , viz. in John Horn , Thomas Moore the Elder , and the Younger who have pleaded and much Contended for Sin , which is the Devils Work and for their wearing Cuffs , and Ribbonds , and for Tythes which the Ministers of the New Testament pleaded not for , nor ever owned such Vanities as Cuffs and Ribbonds , &c. So that all sober minded People who Love the Light of the Lord in them and his Truth , may soon see what Spirit these are of , that plead for and uphold such deceits as these men aforesaid have done . And let the witness of God in all Consciences be minded by which the Spirits may be tryed and discovered , whether they be of God or no ; and this Light of Christ in your Consciences being minded , and you ( who have a desire to know the Lord ) waiting in the Light , it will bring your minds into stability to feel Gods Power and Teachings , where the Confusion cannot prevail over you , for your Confusion and Darkness is among the Teachers and People , who are as the Waters that are unstable where the Whorish Spirit Rules : And wo is to such who are the Inhabitants of the Earth , and of the Sea , unto whom the Devil is come down and hath great wrath because he knoweth that he hath but a short time , Rev. 12. 12. A BRIEF ANSVVER To the Book Called , A Fuller Discovery &c. EVil men and Seducers wax worse and worse , deceiving and being deceived , and the wise Men are turned backward , and the Diviners made Mad , 2 Tim. 3. 13. Isai. 44. 25. who have striven to overthrow the Truth as these men , viz. John Horn , Thomas Moore Senior , and his Son Thomas Moore have done , that their Impudency , folly , and Falshood more Appears than ever , who have evidently shewed themselves to be such as walk with Slanders , and have made Lyes their Refuge , who are such as the Prophet called Brasse , and Iron , who are all corrupters , Jer. 6. 28. which I shall here briefly shew , both for the clearing of the Truth , and us the Witnesses of it , and for the satisfying of the Simple that they may not be Corrupted with the Lyes , and Corrupt Doctrines of these the Truth's Enemies , who whilest they Profess Liberty and Redemption to others , and pretend a denyall of the Priests of the Nation , they themselves are Children of Corruption in Bondage to the Devil ( that old Lyar ) his works which many both Priests and Professors have largely Appeared in against Gods Truth and work in his People : For notwithstanding this J. Horn and Thomas Moore , have acknowledged themselves to be neglecters of Christ , and abusers of his Truth , yet still they proceed in the same Iniquity ; and notwithstanding John Horn in page 55. of this their Fuller Discovery so Called , ( where he had laid down a Falshood in his other Book ) now Confesseth himself subject to forgetfulness And over sights , and so did in his forgetfulness write , &c. and in Page 66. they acknowledge that they have their share too much in the Pollutions , viz. of the Nation in General , and in Pag. 63. whereas John Horn had palpably belyed me about a Passage he had Learned out of a Priests Queries in Cambridge , he now Confesseth himself Faulty and craves forgiveness , he having been too rash in taking that upon trust ( which he Falsely charged me with ) as they acknowledge ; and yet how often have these Men accounted us Called Quakers false Prophets , Deceivers , Lyars , Accursed ; as also they have accounted us Vipers and Scorpions , Cockatrices , not to be Charmed , and like the Locusts out of the Bottomless pit whose sting is in their Tayles , which Revilings the Reader may Judge what Spirit they came from , since they have craved forgiveness of us for belying us : * and yet how often have they denyed that they have belyed us in their Books may be seen ; but what Hypocrites are they to Profess themselves Christs Ministers , and be found in Lying as they are , and what is their Confession worth when they continue in their evil , & as an Addition to their many former Lyes , Forgeries , and their former Rashness and abuses against the Truth they have falsely charged us with , and laid down these things following against us called Quakers , which we deny and return back upon Jóhn Horn , and both the Tho , Moores aforesaid , who are the Inventers of these Lyes , Slanders , and Absurdities , which were never owned by us . Their Lies and Slanders in their Epistle are these , viz. 1. They charge us with Maintaining , that that body of flesh in which Christ suffered and bare our sins , and which rose again is not a Body . 2. That the Blood of Jesus Christ , is not of the Foundation of our Faith , and that our Faith is not Faith in Christs Blood . 3. That the Body of his Flesh in which he Suffered , we deny to remain . 4. That the lower parts of the Earth into which Christ descended , and the Heavens into which he again ascended , are no local places , but some Conditions or Conceits in men . 5. That neither the Souls nor Bodies of the Wicked shall rise again to Judgment . This with several other Lies J. Horne and Thomas Moor , charge us ( called Quakers ) with maintaining or asserting insome Queries I sent to them ; when as I only queried them , to try their belief in these things without asserting them ; so what unreasonable men these are is easie to see , who distinguish not between Questions and Assertions , who proceed in their lies thus , 6. That we agree with Himneus and Philetus that said the Resurrection is already past . 7. That Christ came not to Redeem men from out of the natural bodily Death . 8. That such Faith as that of the Elect mentioned , Rom. 8. 33 , 34 , 35. is by our Doctrines to be rooted up . 9. That by our Doctrine , Christ is not the Author and procurer of all good to men , both natural and spiritual . 10. That we deny Justification by a Righteousness imputed to us . 11. That to endeavour to detect and make manifest the delusions of any , & to preserve people from them , is a being impatient under , and raging against Gods Judgments , which they falsely charge us ( called Quakers ) with maintaining : And with maintaining . 12. That these Teachers whose Hearers do sleight and neglect the Truth Preached by them , and remain sloathful , formal Covetous , are false Prophets ; whenas the words were not so spoken by us , but we spoke rather in particular against them , and such as being false Prophets and Hypocrites , who being neglecters of Christ , and abusers of the Truth themselves , as they have confessed they have not profited the People . Again these abusers of the Truth , viz. 13. J. Horne , and T. Moor , charge us falsely , with plainly denying Judgment after the natural Death and with denying and jearing at Christ that Holy and Innocent man that was born of the Virgin Mary , as having the form and body of a man . 14. That we set up another thing in his stead , viz. an imaginary seed within every man . 15. That we plead for a Christ , without any body of man distinct from others , or out of them , but a certain seed with an imaginary flesh and blood , dying and bearing sin in every man , having no other body but what is in some men dying , yea in every man in its time . 16. That our Christ hath been alwayes dying and rising in men , from the beginning of the World , and so will be to the end . 17. That we make nothing of the coming again of Christ , but scoffs at him that dyed 1600. years ago . 18. That we account Christ's Death and Resurrection but a shaddow . 19. That the seed ( which we speak of in men ) is but a conceited Spirit that is within them , with a conceited flesh and blood in them too ; of which they say , such an Idol was scarce ever in any Generation of men set up before . Wherein J. Horne , and these two Moors have both lyed shamefully , and blasphemed ; for the seed which we spake of , is Christ , whom the Apostles Preached which the promise was to , in them ; and this is not an Idol as they heve blasphemed , nor his flesh and blood a conceited and an imagined thing , but our meat and drink , without the eating and drinking of which a man hath no life in him . 20. Again J. H. and T. M. falsely accuse us , with maintaining that our Christ in all the reality of his body with his flesh and blood is wholy within us , sensibly bearing our sins , though not willingly . 21. That the coming of Christ to raise the dead bodies of all that sleep in Jesus , &c. and the Resurrection of the dead , and Judgment afterdeath , is by us altogether denyed . 22. That whatsoever is said of the true Christ or of his Church in the Scripture , we apply to a false Christ and to our selves . 23. That we come in our own Name and Authority boasting of our selves , and witnessing to and of our selves , and obtruding things upon men , not by and in the Light and evidence of the Spirit . 24. That we say , our sayings are better than the sayings of the holy Spirit in the Scriptures . 25. That George Fox said in Bury at Goal of one Disbrough Brother-in-law to Joseph Hagger being a Tradesman in London , that he was Priest and Hireling and took Tyths ; which with the rest is an odious lie and slander , and denyed by George Fox , as also are these , viz. 26. That we count our selves Lords , and disdain to have any over us , and revile , and likely would destroy if in our power at our pleasure . 27. And that our principle leads to it . 28. That I wilfully played the Jesuite or Sophister to delude the ignorant with seeming like tearms . 29. That Christopher Wade clearly proved a whole dozen of notorious lies against George Fox . 30. And that in my Answer I give the goe-by most egregiously , and in none of them reproves C. Wade . Which also are filthy lies against both G. F. and me , as may be seen in my Book intituled Truth defending the Quakers ; so that these things here mentioned against us called Quakers , which John Horn and T. Moor have accused us with , which are inserted in their Epistle , I return back upon them as wicked lies and slanders proceeding from the envious Spirit of the wicked one in them , and yet they are but a few in comparison of many more which they have uttered against us which we are clear of and more of their lies and slanders in their Book are as followeth , viz. 31. That some of us say we are Christ . 32. That we cast mists and cloudes in our expressions . 33. That we turne Scripture sayings into fables , perverting the whole Scripture to a corrupt sense . 34. That by dead in Christ , we mean but the spiritually dead in some , some fancyed death , sleeping in him , & the Trumpet , and shout , and Resurrection all Allegorical . 35. 36. That we are denyers of the Resurrection Preached by the Apostles . And that all men may see us to be so . 37. That we count the Preaching of the Cross foolishness , and turn it into a Fable or Allegory . 38. That we confess not Christ come in the flesh , but make him a figure of a spiritual wickedness , or mysterious deceit that works in them that perish . 39. 40. That we turn the words of Truth into a lie . Not only neglecting , but wholly trampleing the true Christ under our feet . 41. That we deny the God above . In these slanders also with many others against us , have they shewed themselves to be frequent and common lyers , all which we return back upon them as things never owned by us ; which if they further assay to make them good , we shall know further how to make our defence , that our innocency may be clear from them , as we are clear in the sight of God : But in these they have but done by our words , as they use to do by the Scriptures of Truth , perverted them , and raised lies from them , which is the manner of their Preaching . And now to some of J. Horns and T. Moors Doctrines in their Epistle , wherein they have belyed and grosly perverted the Truth , with their false constructions and inferences , as to our saying , that the seed of God which is Christ , wherever he is known in such a low measure as a seed that suffers , and is burthened in man by corruption , there he desires to be free from the burthen of sin , and alwayes to do his Fathers will , and this seed the Power reaches to where it is begotten , and in the Power it arises in them that believe in the Light for their Redemption , to which J. H. and T. M. Scornfully say of this seed , Christ which we speak of , that he hath not ceased from sin in them , nor can do in all things his Fathers will , but needs a Power to reach to him where he is begotten : And that we represent him as one not able to do his Fathers will in some men . To which I reply , that Christ cannot in all things do his Fathers will , is their own words and not ours , neither does it follow from what we said , for his desiring to do his Fathers will , in that suffering state does no more argue that he is unable to do it , than when he prayed to the Father , not my will but thine be done who could do nothing without the Father ; as also the Heir as long as he is a Child differeth nothing from a Servant , though he be Lord of all , Gal. 4. 1. and Christ came into the World to do his Fathers will , which is the sanctification of them that believe , which he desired to do before it was done , and as for the Power reaching the seed which so much these men have scoffed at , and counted what we said of it confused stuff , in page 63. They have shewed themselves ignorant of the seed of God , which the promise is to , and that they never knew the work of that Power which reaches that seed , as also they are ignorant of the Scriptures , for it is written , Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive Power & Riches , Wisdome and Strength , and Honour , and Glory , and Blessing , Revel. 5. 12. so that they might as well have scoft at the Angels of God , who spake these words , as at us ; and have said that the Power that reaches to the seed is Christ , and then Christ is worthy to receive Christ , as also they have done in like manner in their scorn , in page 63. wherein they have shewed their gross ignorance of the several manifestations of Christ , the seed in his People , who are of the seed of Abraham , which Christ took upon him to redeem his own , and to bring to his own Power and promise , which he receives of the Father . And our saying that this Seed which is Christ where he suffers , and is burthened in man by corruption , there he desires to be free from the burthen of sin , does not argue as falsely as these men infer , that it cannot be said of the Seed of God that in it is no sin , for Christ hath suffered by mens sins and been pressed with them and born them , Amos 2. 13. Ezek. 6. 9. and yet in him is no sin ; and if these men were not past feeling , they might feel how the Spirit of the just in them , they have often grieved , burthened and afflicted by their own sins , and yet in that Spirit there is no sin , but in them who resist it . J. Horn and Thomas Moor , say their Christ by that his death once suffered , and in his Resurrection in that his Body , &c. hath overcome Death and the Devil , slain the enmity , and taken out of the way all that was contrary to them , redeemed them from the Curse of the Law . I Answer , Herein have they stollen the Saints words , which they are out of the like of , for if the enmity were taken out of the way , Sin would not be their natural heritage as they have pleaded for it , and they would not have uttered so many lies and falsehoods as they have done , for one of which , J. Horne hath craved forgivness ; and if all that 's contrary to them be taken out of their way , then its evident that sin and the Nations pollutions are not contrary to them , for they have confessed themselves too much to have a share in them , and that they are abusers of the Truth . And to that , 1 John 4. 17. as he is so are we in this World , J. H. and T. M. give their meaning , and say , as Christ is unknown , despised , hated , persecuted in his Doctrine , and judged by any of the World so are we . Answ. In this have they apparently lyed , for Christ was persecuted to Death of the World , but so are not J. Horne not T. Moor , neither are they unknown of the World as Christ was , for Christ was never known to Preach in a Steeplehouse by an Hour-glass for Tyths , or so much in the Year in Leiw of them , like the Parish Priests and Deceivers , who are out of the steps of the true Ministers , who walked after Christs example , & not after the hireling Priests example , who Preach for hire , and gifts , and reward as these men do : And rather than J. Horne will freely suffer by the World as Christ did , take heed that he fall not to the Common-prayer-book . And to our calling J. Horne a Priest , he sayes , if we mean he is a Priest of the order of Aaron , a Levitical Priest , we say evidently false . Answ. If he be not a Priest of the order of Aaron , then he plainly appears to be a false Priest , seeing that in Page 70. he hath pleaded for his taking Tyths , as neither repugnant to Gods Law nor Mans ; as also his practises therein he instances , that the Priests had their several Subburbs and Quarters , when as they that had these were of the Levitical Priesthood , Numb. 35. Which Priesthood J. Horne hath plainly denyed himself to be one of , and yet pleads for Tyths which pertained to that Priesthood which Christ ended , and disanulled the commandment which gave the Tyths , Heb. 7. So what hypocrisie is this J. H. in , who claimes a right to Tyths as both being according to the Law of God and Man , and yet upon that account denies to be called Priest , when as the Law of God calls them Priests that took Tyths , and does not the Law of Man the like ? And does not the Book of Common-Prayer call them Priests ? So that upon this account may J. Horne be called a false Priest , he claiming a right to Tyths as by the Law of God , when as the service of the Tabernacle ( for which they were given to the Prists of Levie ) he is out of Numb. 18. As also he is guilty of the false Priests practises , who Preached for hire and divined for money Mica 3. 11. J. H. and T. Moor the elder and the younger , say , that the false Apostles ( it seems by what the Apostles writes of them 2 Cor. 11. 12. ) they use to boast of their free Preaching , and in Page 71. They say , that the false Apostles were never the better for their Paeaching freely but the worse . Answ. Herein have they plainly perverted that of 2 Cor. 11. 12. for there is no speech of the false Apostles Preaching freely ; see the malice and envy of these accusers , how they envy the practise of the true Apostles and Ministers , which was to Preach freely and not for filthy lucre , ( Mat. 10. 1 Pet. 5. ) Which they have not yet proved the false Apostles did , as they have affirmed , for they ran into covetousness , and were deceitful workers , having the forme of godliness , but denying the Power , 2 Tim. 3. And in their affirming that the false Apostles Preached freely , here they have set the false Apostles above themselves ; for neither J. H. nor Thomas Moor Senior have Preaching freely to boast of , whilst they are setled in Parishes , and taking Tyths and Gifts as the other Priests do , whom they have called greedy dumb dogs , strong to appetite , &c. in their Pamphlet called a Brief Discovery , &c. T. Moor's Principle Page 2. That sin is in the believer as a natural heritage from Adam while he is in this mortal body ; and to prove it , he brings , Rom. 7. 17 , 20. for I know that in me that is , in my flesh dwelleth no good thing ; and that it was not he that did sin , but sin in him , and saith there 's his natural heritage . To which I Answer , Herein hath he wrested the Scripture , for Paul did not say that sin was in him as a natural heritage from Adam while he was in the mortal body , neither did he own it as his natural heritage , for while it was in his flesh it was his burthen , ( after that he was turned to the Spirit ) so he waited till it was done away , that he could witness the Creature delivered from sin and become new in Christ Jesus , who redeems out of the first Adams state and nature . And where we laid down this as T. Moors Principle , that their nature is restored in Christ , and that their nature is a filthy nature , and Christ took upon him their nature , this they say is falsely expressed and perverted , and yet J. H. and T. M. a little after say thus , viz. That our nature , kind or being , as in us , not in Christ , is corrupt and filthy in it self , yet Christ took upon him our nature , not as it is filthy in us by sin in it , &c. and they say that we might as well have taxed the Apostle of confusion for saying men by nature do the things contained in the Law , Rom. 2. 14. And yet by nature are Children of wrath , Ephes. 2. 3. To which I say , we may justly tax these men with confusion indeed , but not the Apostle ; for here they cannot discern between the sinful nature and the pure nature ; for the nature of Christ is pure , so that it s not their nature , for their nature is filthy , and therefore it is not in Christ , and their bringing that of Rom. 2. 14. and Ephes. 2. 3. together to prove their confusion , sheweth , that they cannot discern between that nature , by which men do the things contained in the Law , and that nature by which men break the Law , and are Children of wrath , but make as if it were all one : But be sure they are out of that nature by which some did the things contained in the Law since their nature is filthy , and by it they cannot do these things contained in the Law but plead against that state , and for sin to continue in them as their natural heritage while in the mortal body . Again J. H. and T. M. Say , that the Apostle saith not , that Christ in them is the mystery , but the riches of this mystery is Christ in men * the hope of glory not the possession of glory , which is not to be injoyed till his glorious appearing , when these mediums now in use will cease . Answ. So herein would these deceivers put Christ the possession of glory a far off , as a thing not to be injoyed by the Saints till after their decease , till which time also we know they put Christs glorious appearing afar off : But then how was Christ all and in all his believers , and how were they changed from glory to glory , and had the heavenly treasure in earthen vessels , 2 Cor. 4. 7. and 3. 18. if they did not possess his glory , when the riches of the glory of this mystery was Christ in the Saints ' the hope of glory ? What was not these riches the possession in them too ? How grosly do these men wrong the Saints and their words in counting them not possessors of the glory before their decease , when as the Saints even when they were in the pure hope , then rejoyce they with joy unspeakable and full of glory , 1 Pet. 1. 8. and again after these men aforesaid have so wronged the Saints in counting them not possessors of the glory while here , they go about to prove their corrupt Principle , viz. That sin is a natural heritage in believers so long as they are here ; so that by these mens account , the Saints had not Christ in them as their possession , but sin as their possession , or natural heritage while they lived , which no where the Scripture saith ; how sadly have they herein wronged the Saints , and blasphemed against the Tabernacle of God , which is with his people in whom he dwels . J. H. and T. M. Tell of an instrumental and outward Object , or a medium of faith which they say , is the holy Scriptures , and then they say the last and most inmost and absolute Object is God in Christ , 1 Tim. 4. 10. Rom. 4. 24. And so they say the Object of faith is one . I Answer , If the Scriptures be the outward Object or medium of faith , and God in Christ be the most inmost and absolute Object of faith , then how is the Object of faith one ? What is the Scriptures without and God one ? Or are the Scriptures God ? Here 's confusion indeed , and where does the Scripture say it is the outward Object and medium of faith ? Here these men are come under that confusion they have charged us with ( as according to their own account ) for in Page 59. they charg us with counfounding the Author with the medium , which they call a piece of confusion , when in Page 6. they confess that Jesus Christ is both the Object of faith , and living and enlivening medium by which any comes to God and believe in God , Heb. 7. 25 ▪ 1 Pet. 1. 21. so that in Page 8. they say true in saying that we did wisely to say that their darkness and confusion may easily be seen , for so it may , who after in their false inference are telling of some being guilty of the imperfection of wit-lesness , because they have in them their guts that be wit-less , and thus their lightness and folly appears . J. H. and T. M. accuse us that the true Christ we say p. 10. we desire not the knowledge of ; In which they have shamefully belyed us , for our words are these , that you look for a Christ like your selves , but that he hath no blood in his Body , as you imagine whom we desire not the knowledge of , for such a Christ they look for , as they cannot prove the true Christ to be , in their Affirming him to have a Bod ▪ of Flesh and bones in the Heavens without blood in it , as many have heard them Publikely Affirm , which now they would deceitfully deny that they so Affirmed and say . p. 26. that they determined not that his Body is a Body of Flesh and bones , in Heaven without blood , and so they have Preached and published that which they determined not , but were doubtful of ; what deceit and confusion is here ? And how do they leave men in uncertainties ; J. H. and T. M. p. 11. say ; That a man may be a sinner by having sin in him , and yet not sin , and to prove it bring Rom. 7. 20. Paul did not the Evil , &c. To which I say , that their words are as much as if they had said , that a sinner sins not ; What folly is this ? which that of Rom. 7. 20. proves not , for though there was that in Paul which was of God that sinned not , yet when he did the Evil which he would not , then he sinned in doing it . Again these Diviners who are thus Confounded say , he that doth Righteousness is Righteous , as God is Righteous , yea as Christ is Righteous , not because there is no sin in him , but because Christ is made to him of God his Righteousness , and in him he is Righteous , as Christ is Righteous . Answ. What then , hath Christ sin in him if a man be Righteous as Christ is Righteous when he hath sin in him ? this their Assertion would charge both Christ and them that are in him , to have sin in them , which is Blasphemy against Ghrist ; For in him is no Sin , and he is made manifest to destroy Sin . And to our Question , which was , what one Sin or Sinnes can they lay to Paul or James or John's charge , or to any of them , that they were not perfectly freed from before their Decease ; Let them prove some sin which was not destroyed in any of those , before their Decease , or for ever be silent from pleading for sin , or accusing the Righteous as they have done ; as also we asked them what sin can they prove that Nathaniel had in him , when he had no guile in him ? To which J. Horn , and T. Moore Reply page 13. That it is enough that we believe Paul , James and John that they had Sin , and did in many things offend , though we cannot name their Particular offences , as it is to believe multitudes to have dyed , though we know not of what Particular Diseases , &c. and in page 20. They tell us we may as well say , seeing the Scripture Witnesses that the Children of Korah dyed , not in the Judgement that befell Korah and his Company , what Disease they dyed of , and if they cannot prove that they dyed of some Disease , then they are Confuted if they believe and hold that they dyed , they say . Answ. Here any Impartial Reader may see how these men are Confounded , who have accused the Saints to have Sin in them , and to offend in many things while they lived upon Earth , and now cannot prove any one sin , that they were not perfectly freed from before their Decease , or which was not destroyed in them before their Decease , so that here all may see how Ignorantly they have accused the Saints , and how far short of proving their Assertion they are , for any of the Saints confessing any of their present states or failings , does not at all prove that they were offenders , or had sin in them , so long as they lived , as these said accusers would have it : and as to their saying , that multitudes have dyed though they know not of what Particular diseases , and if they cannot prove that they dyed of some disease , then they are confuted if they believe that they dyed ; to that I say , thus , their comparison will not hold but is foolish , neither will it follow from what we propounded , for it is evident that multitudes have dyed , as it is appointed for men once to dye : But they have not so proved that all the Saints were Sinners , or had sin in them , so long as they lived according to their Assertion . And to their saying that David implies Sins in them though forgiven and covered in whose Spirit is no guile , Psa. 32. 1 , 2. here they have added their own words unto Davids , for he spake of such unto whom the Lord imputeth not Iniquity , whose sin is covered and in whose Spirit is no guile , nor can any say that their sin is thus covered when they sin , or that it shall not be imputed to them while they are guilty of it , for does not the Light of Christ discover in man his sin and reprove him for it , when he is guilty of it ? They that know it can tell though it s hid from these said accusers . Again I. H. and T. M. say David saith no man living is so free from sin as to be justified , if God enter into Judgment with them , and to prove it bring , Psa. 143. 2. Answ. This is a lye against David , for these are not his words , he said not that no man living is so free from sin as to be justified , &c. For when the enemy had persecuted Davids Soul , and had Smitten his Life down to the Ground , he said enter not into Judgment with thy Servant O Lord , for in thy sight shall no man living be Justified : Which relates to that state wherein the Enemy hath Power , that the life is Smitten down to the Ground , and man cannot be Justified , but thorow the death to that which Judgment is to : So this Scripture they have brought proves no more that the Saints are not freed from sin in this life , then it does that they are not Justified in Gods sight , while in this life , when as the Saints were Justified from that which the Judgments of God was to , and such could say its not I that live but Christ in me . To our saying touching Christs Body that the Body is one , and hath many Members , 1 Cor. 12 12. I. H. and T. M. answer that 's said both of a Personal and Mistical body or Society in different sences , and then they say true ; also that the body of Christ either Personal or Mistical is not Carnal but Spiritual . REP. Here they darken the minds of the simple by words which they have no Scripture for , for the Scripture no where speaks of Christ having a Personall body , and a Mistical body , and yet both Spiritual . For if he hath two Spiritual bodies , wherefore do they say the one is Personal , and the other Mistical , as if then both were not Mistical ; and whence came that distinction in these words from the Papists ? What is not that which is Spiritual Mistical ? ( according to their own words ) but Paul saith as the body is one and hath many Members , so also is Christ , and now are they many Members yet but one body , 1 Cor. 12. 12 , 20. and there is one body and one Spirit , Ephes. 4. 4. but I. Horn , in a Paper to me saith , that Jesus hath a humane Body and Soul * ( & where does the Scripture say that Christs Soul is humane ? For his Soul is divine and immortal ) & mens natural or earthly bodies are humane , and the Apostle distinguisheth between them and the Spiritual bodies , 1 Cor. 15. 40 , 44. so that Christ hath a glorious Spiritual body in Heaven which few can discern , distinct from mens teresttial or natural bodies , wch are humane , now if Christ hath a natural or humane body , & a Spiritual body , & his Church too , which is his body , which they call his Mistical body , may they not as well say he hath three bodies ? And then why not as well four or five bodies ? But their Ignorance about the natural and the Spiritual bodies is so plainly discovered in our Book intituled a Brief Discovery of the Dangerous Principles , &c. in which the Truth is so clearly over them that I need say little as to that Particular now . To that 1 Thes. 4. 15. Where its said , we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord , &c. John Horn and T. M. say , we that live and remain , means but those of us that shall be found living , that is , of the company of believers , with whom they numbred themselves because then living , and possibly not knowing but they might have lived to his coming , but it no more implyes that the believers of that age should live and remain till the coming of Christ , then they who lived in David's age , lived in Moses age many hundred years before him , &c. I Answer , Herein these perverters would accuse Paul with speaking both ignorantly and falsely , to speak ignorantly , as if he knew not whether they should live and remain till the coming of the Lord , ( who then were alive ) and to speak falsely , in their denying that the believers of that age should live and remain till the coming of Christ : whenas Paul expresly said , we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord , shall not prevent them that are asleep ; so that they knew the several appearances and opperations of Christ till they all beheld his glory with open face as in a glass , and were made to sit with him in Heavenly places . J. H. and T. M. The Apostles exhort to set our affections upon things above , where Christ is also at the right hand of God , not upon things within your selves , but upon things above . Col. 3. 2. 3. I Answer , If the Saints were not to set their Affections on things within themselves , then not upon Christ in them , for the Riches of the Glory of this mystery , was Christ in them the hope of Glory , Col. 1. 27. so see the darkness of these men , who would as by their Doctrine divide Christ , who is both in the Saints and at Gods right hand , not devided , nor Gods right hand devided from them who are saved by it , and how should they set their affections on things above , when they do not affect Christ nor his Spirit in them ? Page 42. J. H. and T. M. The Apostles Faith was not grounded in Christs appearing in them , Page 42. Answ. Which is contrary to the Apostles Doctrine , for Paul Preached to the Saints that their faith might stand in the power of God , and this power wrought mightily in them ; and Paul said , examine your selves whether you be in the faith , prove your own selves , know you not your own selves how that Jesus Christ is in you except ye be reprobates . J. H. and T. M. in Page 31. accuse us with being Juglers , and Jesuites , that are full of lies and confusion . But this I return back upon them as a lie and a slander invented in their malice , for do they know us to be Jesuites ? Why do they not discover us to be such then ? After that J. H. and T. M. have denyed that they that were led by the Spirit of God , did witness the creature brought into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God before their decease , ( wherein they have discovered much ignorance of the state of them who were led by the Spirit of God , who remained , not all their life time without their liberty ) they say it is God that hath ordered the Redemption there spoken of ( viz. Rom. 8. 23. ) to be after death , &c. and that it was their part ( viz. the Apostles ) and so is ours to groan after it , and wait for it , till the time of Christ's descending from Heaven to change our vile body , &c. To which I say , and this descending of Christ from Heaven according to these mens words , is not till after mens decease , when they say the bodies shall be raised ; And then if it be the Saints part that are deceased , and the part of all believers to groan after , and wait for the redemption of the body , ( as if the Saints body were not changed , nor redeemed from the bondage of corruption before their decease , as these men affirm ) where are the Saints deceased now groaning for Redemption ? are they with the Father in Heaven groaning for it ? Or are they groaning in some Purgatory between Heaven and Hell ? Oh! what sottishness are these men in ? For in the Father is rest from burthens and bondage , which caused the groaning , and the Saints according to their expectations and hope , knew the working of the Power of God , according to which they witnessed , a changing of the body of their lowness ( as the word renders it , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , ) and a fashiong of it into the likeness of Christs glorious body , which power these men being ignorant of , they put that Redemption and the glorious liberty of the Sons of God a far of , till after the decease they know not how long , but their ignorance about that , hath been largly manifest . Again to vindicate Thomas Moors instancing ( for Christ's being in Heaven with a body of flesh and bones without blood in it ) that we do not read that there was any blood in Adam's body in Paradice : To this J. Horn and T. M. say , that T. Moor brought forth indeed such an observation as a conception , or thought of his , which rendered it probable to his apprehension , that a glorified spiritual body needs not the being of material blood in it , and that he reads not that Adam's body had blood in it before the fall , in which he conceives what before was more purely Spirits , was changed into blood , and therein the body became mortal ; but this is but his private conception , which he gives not forth as an Oracle to be believed , as an Article of Faith , they say Page 53. I Answer , Mark the deceit and lying divinations of these men , and how doubtful and confused they are in what they deliver ; it is known by many that Thomas Moor affirmed openly , as also he hath in some of his Books , that Christs body in Heaven , is a body of flesh and bones without blood in it , and that he ascended without material blood . But against this their own assertion , they say in Page 26. yet that his body is a body of flesh and bones in Heaven without blood in it , they determined not : So who should believe these Hypocrites who assert things that they themselves are so doubtful of ; and Preached their own conceptions , and imaginations which they have no Scripture for , and against their own words have guessed above what is written , and have given forth their private conceptions , not as an Oracle to be believed . Oh! what darkness and folly are they in ? And yet after that they have confessed that what they have said ( of Adams body not having blood in it before the fall ) is but a private conception which they give , not as an Oracle to be believed : They go about to vindicate this private conception of theirs in these words , viz. but how prove we that Adam had blood ? Why blood is the life , T. M. may answer , it is so in the fallen state follows it , it was so there they say : So then it follows from these mens words that it is in the fallen state that men have blood in their bodies , & that then it is the life but not in the innocent or spiritual state ; from whence they might as well say , that then Christ had never blood in his body , for he was never in the fallen state , and that the Saints that were Spiritual had not blood , for they were not thus in the fallen state : What miserable blind guides are these that tive go about to maintain their foolish conceptions which they gall not forth as Oracles to be believed . And to our saying , that Nations are made of one blood , Acts 17. 26. J. Horn and T. Moor say , but neither doth that cross T. Moors apprehensions , for there was no Nation nor man made of Adam before his fall ; he fell before he propagated they say . Answ. Here again their folly and sottishness exceedingly appears , for Adams falling before he propagated , does notargue that he had no blood in his body before he fell , for Nations to be made of ; for he might have propagated if he had not fallen , seeing that when God had created man in his own image male & female created he them , then God blessed them , and God said unto them be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it , &c. Gen. 1. 27 , 28. And where we asked them whether they believe there was no blood left in Christs body when crucisied ? They answer , how should we certainly believe what is not revealed ? Some judge it probable there was not , because it is said after his fide was pierced , forthwith came there out blood and water ; water is mentioned last , as if blood might be all drained out till water followed it , they say . I answer , Here again they have shewed their weakness , in that they have here shewn , that they do not certainly believe there was no blood in Christs body when Crucified , because it s not revealed to them , and where they say that forthwith came there out water and blood . I say , what could the blood all come out forthwith ; so that people may take notice , that all their former asserting that Christ ascended without material blood , and that his body is in Heaven without blood in it , & their thus blindly reasoning for it as they have here done , is but all in darkness since what they speak of it is not revealed to them , and therefore they say , they find some good men that had the oversight of the Churches here in Queen Elizabeth , and the following dayes did not disbelieve or deny such a conception , for they say it is printed amongst those songs set before or after the Psalms in the complaint of a sinner . Thus they The Scripture doth declare , no drop of blood in thee , for that thou didst not spare , to shed each drop for me . Page 54. Whence the Reader may see , from whence J. Horn and old T. Moore , and his Son have part of their Faith , or their Testimony for it , even from among Songs which were Invented by men ; what sad stuff is this ! but sure could they have proved their Faith , and their Conceptions by the Scriptures , they needed not to have gone to among old Songs to have proved it , which are but Aditions of men , not given forth by the Prophets or Apostles . After that John Horn hath in pag. 55. Confessed himself subject to forgetfulness , and over-sights , and that he did in his forgetfulness write Job for Elihu , because the Book doth wholly bear the Title of Job ; he further proceeds in his Deceit to Vindicate his words in a Letter to Eliz. Underwood which were that the good Angels are not pure in the presence of God , and to prove it he brought Job 4. 18. and 15. 15. where it s said , behold he putteth no trust in his Saints , and his Angels he charged with folly ; which were none of Jobs words , but Eliphaz his words , who was one of the Miserable Comforters that came against Job , and one of them against whom the wrath of God was kindled , and spoke not the thing of God that was right , as Job did . Job 42. 7. but John Horn replyes , that what Eliphaz said of the Angels as charged with folly , is related by Eliphaz rather as a thing Revealed to him , and said to him in a Vision by a Spirit . I Answ. But what Spirit it was that led Eliphaz to speak so against the Saints & Angels , thou J. H hast not made appear , but in thy Darkness and Deceit , hast Joyned with that Spirit that hath accused the Brethren , and the good Angels as thou hast done further then Eliphaz did , for where provest thou that the good Angels are not pure in the presence of God ? and what Sin canst thou prove the good Angels Guilty of , that makes them Impure ? and what are the names of those good Angels that thou hast so accused ? and doest thou believe that God putteth no trust in his Saints according to his words that thou hast quoted to prove thy Deceit ? Again , Pag. 57. J. H. and T. M. Say , they said about that in 1 Cor. 15. So ( flesh and blood cannot Inherit the Kingdom of God ) that in the Changed state , what was blood before , might be Changed into Pure Life and Spirit , the thing and Substance remaining though ( they say ) not in the same Form of Blood , which yet they Conclude not , they say . Answ. Here again , they have shewed their folly and Imaginations , for which they have been reproved in Laying down that which they have no Scripture for , but their own blind Supsition , which now they Conclude not , and so are but uncertain of their blindly saying , That in the Changed state what was blood before , might be changed into pure Life and Spirit , and yet the thing and Substance remaining ; So how can others believe these men , when they seem hardly to believe their own words , and how often do they thus leave People in uncertainties ? To our saying , that the Light of Christ shines in Darkness in some before the morning , which was in Answer to that Scripture Isai. 8. 20. which they brought to prove that there is no Light in some , when as the Word is {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} no Morning to him , which afterward J. H. was partly made to Confesse , but now he and T. M. say that we allude to 2 Pet. 1. 19 and so we Imply that the Word of prophesie ( the Scriptures of the Prophets , for it appears clearly by the next verse , they say he speaks of them , as more sure to others for their Faith , because more abundantly Conformed then the Apostles , saying that they had such vision ) is not the Morning Light , and that the believers that had like Precious Faith with the Apostles had not Morning Light in them , and so were like those that peep and mutter and Preach false Doctrine they say . Answ ? Herein have they belyed , and wrested our words ; for we did not imply , nor intend , that the Word of Prophesie in the Believers is not the Morning Light , nor , that the Believers had not the Morning Light in them , nor that they were like those that peep and mutter , as these men have falsely said and belyed both us and the former Believers ; for we declared how that the Light of Christ both shineth in Darkness , and how it shineth out of Darkness , and how it is both the Evening and the Morning Light ; As also there is a time wherein the Light is not clear , nor dark , and when at Evening time it shall be Light , Zech. 14. 7. so that they in whom there is no Morning , have a Light in them , as it appears in Darkness . And their Affirming here that the Word of prophesie spoken of in 2 Pet. 1. 19. is the Scriptures of the Prophets , and that they are more sure than the Apostles saying : ( or words ) in this , have they shewed their blindness , for the Word of prophesie was the Light which shined in a dark place , which Peter Exhorted them to take heed unto , until the day dawned , and the day Star arose in their hearts ; for why should the Scriptures of the Prophets be more sure than the Apostles Words ? since that the fulfilling of them , the Apostles were eye Witnesses of , and Preached the End and Fulness , which the Scriptures of the Prophets do but prophesie or foretell off , and what , was not Peters words as well to be believed , ( by the Believers he wrote to ) as the Prophets Words ? Seeing these blind men aforesaid have accounted the Prophets Words more sure then his ? And where in p. 59. they say that John saith , Christ is the true Light , that Lightneth every man coming into the World ; They say it is not enlighteneth , in which they have falsely said for it is : {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which is as well enlightneth as Lightneth . And where we called John Horne Impudent Lyar , for charging us with a Passage about Mr. Towns-end ( as they call him ) John Horn sayes he cannot be guilty of Impudent Lying , for he followed the Cambridge Queries & what was Attestested in them ; To which I say , John Horn then followed a Lying Spirit , and gave himself to believe Lyes , which the Cambridge Queries were full of , as also that Priest who was the Author of them , viz. Tho. Smith ( who J. Horn falsely saith , bafled us ; his Lyes and grosse Slanders are made apparent to the Nation ( in a Book I gave forth ; Intituled , The Key of Knowledge , not found in the University , &c. ) as John Horns Lyes also are here like to be , who hath taken part with a Lying Spirit , as one , who is given over to believe and Report Lyes , who hereby seeks to get into favour with the Priests of the Nation , whom he and T. Moore have so publikely in their discovery called Greedy Doggs , strong to Appetite , who Hunt after Livings and Maintenance , &c. And now after John Horn hath published this Lye against me , which he Learned out of the Cambridge Queries , he saith he might be too rash in taking it upon trust , and not fathering it upon him whence he had it , in that , he Confesses himself faulty , and Craves forgiveness in pag. 63. To which I say , oh ! J. Horn where art thou now ? How often hast thou in thy Papers said thou hast not belyed me ? And now thou hast shewed thy self how thou hast been like the Prophets Enemies , who were in the the false Reports against the true Prophets ; and may not thou and Tho. Moore be ashamed , to say , that Schollar that Disputed with us Bafled us , when thou art taken so plainly in his lye , and your saying so is but from his Relation ? Oh! what filthy Deceit and Impudency are you in ? Have you all this while counted us Deceivers , and false Prophets , and Hereticks , and your selves to be true Ministers ; and now do you expect we should forgive you your Iniquity ? Oh! what Deceit , Hypocrisie , and confusion are you in ? But had you stood in that of God , which made you confess your lye , you had not added so many to it as you have . Again you say we twit you over and over , that you are neglecters of Christ and Abusers of Gods Truth , by your own Confession , to which you say blessed be God that you are counted worthy to suffer Reproach for his Names sake , for that 's the thing you say we are mad at you for , &c. p. 65. Answ. Nay , In this have you lyed , for wherein you do suffer , it is not for the Name of the Lord , for you are not worthy to suffer for that since that you suffer as Neglecters of Christ and the Abuse of his Truth , which you have long abused , as you have confessed , and yet you continue abusing it , and its servants , with your lyes and false Reports ; and you have confessed your selves Guilty of Sin with the Nation , and have your share too much in their Pollutions . p. 66. and have Confessed that we are a heavy Judgement of God , that he hath ordered to punish you for your Neglect of Christ and abuse of his Truth , so that it s not for the Name of Christ that you suffer , but as Evil doers . And in your Confessing your abuse of the Truth , you go about to joyn your selves in with the true Prophets , and Apostles , saying that they use to Confess their Sins , as David , Solomon , Isaiah , Jeremiah , Daniel , Paul James John , &c. and then you say , had we heard David's saying , Innumerable evils have Compassed me about , mine Iniquities have taken such hold upon me that I am not able to look up , &c. Would we not have called him Hypocrite for Faulting his Enemies as Evil doers , and yet he himself so burthened with Iniquity , You say ? and further , you say , had we heard Isaiah say , we grope for the Wall like the blind , we grope as if we had no eyes , and stumble at noon-day , us in the night , Isai. 59. 12 , 13 , 14. For our transgressions are multiplyed before thee , &c. Would we not have said , oh ! thou Hypocrite , hast thou been crying out against us , as blind and Brutish , and doest thou grope like a blind man ? you say . Answ. You have herein supposed falsely , for we should not have had the same ground to call David and Isaiah Hypocrites , that we have to call you so ; for you never came to that Innocency , and Righteousness they came to , after they had confessed their Sins ; for they suffered the Terrours of the Lord for them , and Iniquity was Davids Burthen ; In so much that he was bowed down greatly , and went mourning all the day long , and so he and the Prophets did not onely Confesse their Sins , but also forsook them , and by the Spirit of Judgement and burning , they were purged from their Iniquities : But you still continue in your Iniquities , and abusing Gods Truth , and never suffered the Terrours of the Lord , nor sorrowed as David did , nor ever became such Righteous men as David was : For he was not a contender for Sin ; not in the hireling Priests steps as you are . And as for Isaiahs saying , we grope for the Wall like the blinde , we grope as If we had no eyes , &c. This Relates more to the unrighteous Rulers and Jews , as an effect of their Iniquities , than it doth to any Guilt the Prophet had , ( for he was then a Seer and bad eyes , that saw the Light and the straight path ) for he said of the Jews , that their hands were defiled with Blood , their Feet ran to Evil , the way of Peace they knew not , and there was no Judgement in their Goings ; Therefore said he , is Judgement far from us , neither doth Justice overtake us , we wait for Light but behold obscurity , for Brightness , but we walk in darkness , we grope for the Wall like the blinde , See Isai. 59. 2. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. But mark , how it was the Prophets Burthen , that the peoples Iniquity was thus great , for he saith , we roar all like bears and mourn sore like Doves , we look for Judgement , but there is none , for Salvation , but it is far off from us , vers. 11. but it does not appear that ever John Horn or either old Tho. Moore , or the younger , have ever thus Roared and mourned because of Iniquity , as the Prophet Isaiah did ( for if they did , they would not plead for it as they do ) nor are they come into his Innocency who are Guilty of Sin with the Nation , and have a share in the Nations pollutions as they confesse , and yet continue in their Iniquity of lying and abusing the Truth which the Prophets and holy men of God did not , so that they cannot hide themselves and their Guilt and Deceit , though they have taken it upon them to Reprove the Teachers , and People of the Nation . Since that John Horn , and Tho. Moore have confessed us called Quakers , a heavy judgement of God which he hath ordered to punish them for their neglect of Christ , and their abuse of his Truth ; and we asked them why they Rage so against Gods Judgement ; Seeing they have sinned so against him ? To this they say , were not the false Prophets and Deceivers alwayes a Judgement ? And did not the Prophets and Apostles alwayes Reprove them , and warn People of them ? Answ. Here again their folly appears , for neither have they proved us false Prophets and Deceivers , as they were , the True Prophets and Apostles Reproved ; nor yet that they themselves are as the true Prophets and Ministers were , who owned Gods Judgements in their place , and did not abuse the Truth as they do ( but Mark ) where does the Scripture ever say , that false Prophets and Deceivers , were ordered of God as a heavy Judgement to punish his true Prophets for their Neglect of Christ , and abuse of his Truth , as these mens words Imply ? seeing they count themselves true Ministers , & us Deceivers ordered of God as a heavy Judgement to punish them for their abuse of the Truth ; Again their counting us a Judgement as the Deceivers , and false Prophets were , whom the true Prophets reproved , belongs to themselves & not to us : for these Deceivers were such as sought for their Gain from their quarters , and Preached for Hire and Rewards , and stole the words from their Neighbours , saying , thus saith the Lord , when God never spoke to them , and strengthened the hands of Evil doers that they might not forsake their Sins , and were in their Lyes , and Lightness , all which John Horn , and Thomas Moore ( Especially the Elder ) are evidently Guilty , for they have much contended for Sin , declared their own Conceptions and Devinations , and J. H. hath pleaded for their taking Tythes and Hire . And further J. H. in his Book called Truth's Triumph , hath gone about to clear himself like as they have done here before , as where I counted it absurd for him to say , that People ought to account the Quakers accursed , whom they have said to be an heavy Judgement to them , for then they must Count the Judgement of God accursed , to this J. H. saith in pag 8. for doth not Judgement begin at the House of God ? 1 Pet. 4. 17. and doth he not ordain wicked men for Judgement , such as the Caldeans and false Teachers , Jude 4. and Satan too , as to Job ? Answ. Here J. H. his deceit is seen plainly , who would fain be accounted as a sufferer with Job , and one in the House of the Lord , but did God ever set Deceivers to be a heavy Judgement over his house to punish it for its abuse of the Truth ? as J. H. hath acknowledged we are to him and such as he is : For the House of God is the Pillar and Ground of Truth , and was that Judgement Deceivers which began at the House of God ? Surely J. H. hath under-vallued the House of God , neither was Job such an abuser of the Truth , nor a Lyar as J. H. is , nor did he suffer as such a one when God tryed him : for he was a Perfect and an upright Man , and one that feared God , and Eschewed evil , such as J. H. is not , to be sure ; so what was done to Job was to try him : Neither can he prove us such as the Caldeans were , Job 1. 17. nor are we a Judgement to Gods House , but a refreshment and blessing to them that are in it . And as for the false Teachers spoken of in Jude ; they were even such as J. H. is , filthy Dreamers , that spoke evil of the things they knew not , as he doth ; and went in the way of Cain to Envy ; and after the Error of Balaam for Reward , and spake great swelling words of vanity , having mens persons in Admiration because of Advantage as J. H. hath . And after that J. Horne hath been pleading for Tythes and Hire , he and T. M. in Page 71. Lay down as their Principle ; That the Priests and Levites , even when they were such as blind Watchmen , and Ignorant prophane Persons , the Lord faults the People for not bringing in and giving them that which he by his Law made theirs ( meaning Tythes ) and charged them with Robing him therein , and to prove it brings Mala. 3. 8 , 9 Answ. Here in have they abused the Scripture , for it does not say , the Lord faulted the People for not bringing and giving Tythes to the blind Watchmen and Ignorant prophane Persons ; but rather faults both the Priests and People for breaking his Law , and tells the Priests they were Cursed , and faults them both ▪ as appears for withholding the Tythes from the Store-house , saying , Bring ye all the Tyths to the store-house , that there may be meat in mine house , Mal. 3. 10. and chap. 2. for at the store-house the Fatherless , Widdows and strangers should have been relieved out of the Tyths , which then were oppressed when the Priests were corrupt , and the Tyths were not brought to the store-house which God commanded , Mal. 3. where we accused J. H. and T. M. of ignorance in their pleading , that all are not hirelings that take hire , for which they brought , Zech. 11. 12. And to our telling them it was spoken by way of prophesie concerning Judas demanding hire of the chief Priests for betraying Christ . J. H. and T. M. Replyes , Christ is clearly in the Prophet , the Shepherd feeding the flock , and asking the price , not Judas as we have falsely supposed , but what is said , he sayes , was by the Prophet Jeremiah , in Matthew it is said Jer. not Zech. they say . Answ. They have herein shewed their ignorance and cavelling , for where did ever Christ when he was upon earth ask thirty pieces of silver of the Jews , or of any for feeding the flock ? herein would they make Christ a hireling like themselves , for in Zech. 11. 12. It is said , they weiged for my price thirty pieces of silver , and a goodly price that I was prized at of them , which plainly hath relation to the price that Judas took for Christ of the chief Priests , Mat. 26. 14. So that Christ did not take this price , nor was he the hireling , but Judas ; And where doth the Prophet Jeremiah either contradict us , or the Prophet Zechariah , seeing you alledge that their expression agree not ? And where you say that such as Christ hires and sends to keep his flock , may and sometimes do prove hirelings as Judas , &c. A poor proof for you who are hirelings , preaching for hire , so Judas that hireling who carryed the bag , and was a thief , John 12. 6. is your way , and not Christ who freely takes care over his flock , and freely gives to his Ministers that they may freely give again . J. H. and T. M. in Page 73. Say , as for their wearing cuffs and ribbons , and white boot-hose-tops , they say , we make a stir about trifles and lawful ornaments , concerning which Christ hath not put them in bondage , or forbid them to them , they say . Answ. If wearing cuffs and ribbons , &c. be lawful ornaments . where is the pride and vanity in apparrel , which you reproved the People for in your other Book ? What , is not Cuffs , Ribbons , and Lace ( which many of your company wear ) vanity in apparrel ? and where you count such vanities lawful ornaments , and say that Christ hath not forbid them , in this have you shewn your deceit and vanity , for the Apostles did not preach these things up as lawful ornaments as you have done , for Paul saith , I will that women adorn themselves in modest apparrel , with shamefastness and sobriety , not with broyded hair , or gould , or pearls , or costly array , 1 Tim. 2. 9. and Peter said whose adorning , let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair , and of wearing of gould , or of putting on of apparrel , &c. 1 Pet. 3. 3 , 4. What do you think that Christ did not speak in these Apostles ? And are not many of your company transgressors of his Doctrine , in wearing gaudy and costly attire , with their cuffs , ribbons and silver lace ? And whereas you say ( concerning which Christ hath not put you in bondage , nor forbid them to you , we say behold your birth , and what generation you are of ; who counts it bondage to put off your pride & come to moderation : Are there not some so born that would count it great bondage to be kept from whoring , & stealing , such is their natures and the Spirits they are of ? And here are you , and here is your liberty found in the same nature and bondage : But though it be your liberty to be proud , yet its bondage to them that labours to maintain you therein , & to the whole creation of God , this we know concerning the pride and idleness and fulness of such Teachers . And in that you say , Christ hath not forbid them to you , how is that ? seeing it was ever forbid to all the Ministers of Christ and their followers ; so we say it s not because God is more at one with it , than formerly he hath been ; but this is the cause , you having not heard his voyce , at any time , nor seen his shape how should he forbid you , or shew you better example , seeing the Scriptures you can wrest to every lust , and purpose of your corrupt hearts . Oh! what deceivers and Hypocrites are you , to preach up , ( and to encourage them in ) such vanity and pride ? When you should be examples of godliness , and rather reprove such pride and wickedness than encourage them in it . And where you say , the Israelstes were not faulted of God for wearing Jewels and ear-rings , and ornaments , &c. this cannot cover your deceit and pride , for the Israelites borrowed jewels of the Egyptians ( such as you are ) and as appears they were but for a time worn , for the Lord said unto them , who wore the Jewels , I will come up in the midst of thee in a moment , and consume thee therefore , now put off the ornaments from thee and the Children of Israel stript themselves of their ornaments , &c. Exod. 12. 35. and chap. 33. 5. and you may see as before the Apostles Preached another thing , and did not wear cuffs nor ribbons , nor plead for them as you do . And where we charged thee , J. Horne with being one of the doggs , which thou said look for their gain from their quarters , to this thou answers that thou charged none so . I reply , Oh! thou Hypocrite and lyar , art thou asham'd to own thy own words ? wouldst thou now get into favour with ths Priests of the Nation , whom thou hast so palpably writ against in thy Book called A Brief Discovery , & c ? wherein thou hast charged the Priests in Page 20. and 21. with being such as Isaiah speaks of , Isa. 56. 10 , 11 , 12. Blind watch-men , dumb doggs , doggs strong to appetite , greedy doggs hunting after livings and maintenance , that look every one for his gain from his quarters , and with many more such like expressions , which thou and Thomas Moor have uttered against the generality of the Teachers of this Nation , so that thy seeking to revoke or deny what thou hast said ( especially if you one begin to bite another ) cannot hide thy self , no , if thou should get the Book of Common-prayer it would not serve thy turn , if such as thou hast counted dumb doggs begin to bite thee . And where in Page 74. thou and Thomas Moor accused the Quakers , and the Jesuites to be either the same , or of very great affinity . That , I return again upon you as a lie and a slander , proceeding from a murtherous Spirit , who before plainly countedus Jesuites and Juglers in Page 31. But do you certainly know we are such ? If you did , you would sure make it better appear than you do , that your murtherous Spirits might be satisfied . J. Horne and T. Moors principle , Page 75. For every neglect of Christ and abuse of his truth , deprives not of God , nor is accompanyed with such transgressions , as not to abide in his Doctrine , they say . Answ. Which is as much as to say , that a man may neglect Christ and abuse his truth , and yet abide in God and in Christs Doctrine notwithstanding : This is one of the Devils Doctrines wherein they are Ministers of Sin and not of Christ , for he that abideth in the Doctrine of Christ abideth in Christ , and he that abideth in him sinneth not , 1 John 3 , 6. for Christ teacheth perfection and holiness , and against all sin and abusing the truth , Mat. 5. 48. and see 1 Pet. 1. 15 , 16. So that the pit which these men aforesaid have digged for others , they are fallen into themselves , and have evidently shewed themselves to be deceivers , and enemies to righteousness . J. H. and T. M. in Page 76. Say thus , viz. We say , that that body of Christ which had flesh and bones after the Resurrction of it , is taken up into Heaven and is in Heaven , Luke 24. 39 , 40 , 51 , 52. what chang or transmutation further it had in its ascention and glory , we know not ( they say ) Answ. So then it appears , that you know not what such a body Christ hath in Heaven , and so you discern not his body , for what change or transmutation it had in its ascention , and glory you know not : And how know you then it is a body with flesh and bones without blood in it as you have affirmed ? Which you would have us to have submitted to your imaginations in , when now you know not what such a body it is your selves , no more than you know where his blood is , which you said is the foundation of your faith , for it may for ought you know , be turned into pure life and spirits , as you have said : And might you not as well have said so of his body too , seeing what change or transmutation it had in its ascention , and glory you know not , only the nearest proof you have brought to prove it , hath no blood it , is a piece of a Rime or song that you have learned from among the songs set before ( or after ) David's Psalms , which you say 't is probible had they thought it an error , they would scarce have let it be printed there . To which I say , you have come off exceeding poorly to prove your Doctrine , and your weakness and ignorance the Reader may easily see . 'T is probible too that you did not think there was so many errors and lies in your volumn of above 20. sheets against us , as there are in it , which does not prove it Erroneous therefore , which if your matter had been sound , you needed not like the Papists have made up so much stuff , and taken up such a great compass to clear your selves , but you have the more discovered your folly and wickedness thereby , as the more you will do , the further you go on in it : as also the Reader may see what weakness you have discovered in Answer to our five Questions and other Questions of ours , if he read your Book , but it will be a task and pretty hard for any unprejudiced Spirits to read it over there being so much confused frothy stuff in it , and Cavellings , nothing at all tending to Edification to be sure ; that in a short time it will be out of Date , and but as wast Paper , or an old Almanack except it be with some such Canckred Spirits as your own . If John Horne pay for the Printing of such great confused Vollumnes : his Preaching sure must be sold at a dear Rate , and if his hearers pay for it , then they know the burthen of it , but however his work will come to nought , for the day hath discovered him and it , to be in Darkness . And now Reader since that all the particulars of the said Book are not worth answering , I having already answered and Rejected the things in it against us of most concernment , I shall shew thee a few more consequences and Doctrines laid down by the said John Horne , and Thomas Moore the Elder and his Son , which we deny , and thou may Judge whether they came from a true Spirit or a False . J. H. and T. M. In their Epistle say . That he ( viz. Christ ) may say ( as Paul said ) to will is present with me , but how to perform what I would , I find not . They tell of Christ , making his grave with the wicked before he was begotten , and that he suffers before he be begotten . That he by whom all things were made , is in some men , and yet his Power not begotten . That when the Power Reacheth to the Seed , it rises in it by Degrees , surely as men in whom he is , Give way to him . That he ( viz. Christ ) hath neither done dying , nor been at any time without his Reigning , That he ( viz , Christ ) Bare his own Sins in his Body , and is the Propitiation for himself , seeing the Church is he or part of him . Page 29. That the dead in Christ were Raised before Paul , and the believing Thessalonians dyed ; and so they did not sleep as to their Bodies , but were suddenly changed , and taken up to meet the Lord in the Ayre ; And in vain do men look for Christs coming to Raise the dead , for that 's past and gone before the Apostles Age was Past . The Resurrection of the Just is over . See Pag. 32. That the Flesh of Christ which we eat is something of the Church , the Flesh and Substance of the Church , and so ▪ the Church is to eat it self . Page 30. These are John Hornes , and Tho. Moores Own words which we utterly deny , and the Reader may see if they have not therein spoken Blasphemy . Again to our saying ; That now the Lord makes a new Covenant with his People , when he takes away their Sins not according to the old Covenant which the Israelites brake , according to Heb. 8. 7 , 8 , 9 and Jer. 31. 31 , 32. and ch. 33. 8. To this J. H. and T. M. say , Pag. 17. It seems then in this time they may be Sinless , and yet Sin , Lye and forge and traduce and yet not Sin in it all . Judge Reader , is this a good Doctrine or Consequence of theirs which they draw from the words of Truth and Scripture ? And further Mark what Doctrines J. Horne , and Tho. Moore have laid down . They Affirm . 1. That every Sin is not deceit . 2. Nor every deceit Guile . 3. That Envy is not Malice , Page 18. 4. That a man may be a Sinner , and yet not Sin , Pag. 11. 5. That Sin is in the believer as a natural heritage from Adam while he is in this mortal Body , Pag 2. 8. 6. That the same mortal Body that Dyes , or is sown in the Earth shall Rise , but it shall not Rise flesh and blood , Pages 44. 46. 7. To know Christ as he was the Power of God before the World was , is not the Knowledge of him to Salvation ? Pag 48. 8. That the Light wherewith Christ Lighteth every man is both natural and Spiritual . Pag. 61. 9. That Adam should not have dyed the bodily Death had he not Sinned , Pag. 23. 10. That when Paul saith Christ was seen of him last . 1 Cor. 15 , 8. he must needs mean is of his Body , seen and seen by bodily sight Pag. 55. which is contrary to Gal. 1. 16. And now I shall note some things in their Answers to our Queries , and briefly Reply to them , by way of discovery . J. H. and T. M. Sen. & Juni . in Pag. 77. They go about to prove that Satan presseth men to some duties , thus viz. That Satans Ministers may be transformed into the Ministers of Righteousness , which they could not be , if not zealous for some things that are in their place , and order in Duties as to be diligent to go up and down , and Preach Righteous works , together with their own mixtures and to evil unrighteous ends . Reply . How miserably come you off here ! for these are not Duties , that are done to unrighteous ends , for Duties are done in Righteousness , and to Righteous ends , and this Satan presseth none to , your selves are these transformed ones you tell of , who are zealous for some things , for Tythes or Hire or Masterships , and these are your evil and unrighteous ends , which are manifest to all men , and are not yet come so far as they that are drawn from gross evils , and though Satan for your own ends press these things as Duties , yet are they not Duties in the sight of God and Gospel Truth . Touching our 1. Que. You say p. 8. Whether we so propounded it out of weakness or wickedness you will not determine ; And yet soon after in your Answer to the same Que. you charge us with confounding things clearly distinct and seeking by such confusion to work our ends in deceiving the simple ; which is your own false determination against us : when before , you determined not whether we so propounded it out of weakness or wickedness ; thus you betray your selves in your confusion , and at the Beginning of your Answer you falsely say these Questions , give a full Intimation of our Antichristian Spirit , which is your slander , and perverting them . In your 2. Answer you say , our Que. is perverse in that it Intimately charges you as calling the Personal Body of our Lord Jesus , a Body of flesh and bones ; which you say is a slander , for it is not your expression , and yet you say , though possibly you may sometimes have let it pass without consideration or particular notice of it , in some discourse that may have passed between us . Reply , Mark how these men are ashamed of their own words , and count that a Slander which they cannot deny , but that they may sometimes have spoken , as called the Body of Christ a Body of flesh and bones , and yet now they say the expression they own not , when it is evidently known that they have used that expression and gone about to prove it to be such a Body without blood in it , but now seeing that they shame not to deny their own expression , I ask them if the glorified Body of Christ be not a body of flesh and bones as formerly they have Affirmed it to be , what is it a body of ? and what is the Substance of it ? Again you say in your 3. Answer , That be even the Son of man came down from Heaven , and descended into the Lower parts of the Earth , although that his Personal Body in which he was made man , and became the Son of man was actually prepared for him or the preparation of it was made in the Earth , you say . Reply . Mark your confusion here which is as if the Son of man which came down from Heaven , again became the Son of man in that Personal Body which was prepared for him in the Earth which is confusion , for he was the Son of man as he came down from Heaven , and so that Body prepared for him in the Earth , Descended not down from Heaven as the Son of Man did according to your own words . And where you bring Ps. 139. 15. that proves not how the Son of man Descended into the Lower parts of the Earth , for there it s spoken of the Lowest parts of the Earth , wherein the Prophet saith he was curiously wrought now this is besides the Que. for it was about him , which Descended into the Lower parts of the Earth , and not about that which was framed in the Lowest parts of the Earth which David speaks of , Psal. 139. 15. and as for your telling of the Son of man , being three dayes , and three nights in the heart of the Earth , pag. 92. I say the Sepulchre in which his Body was Buryed , could not be the Lower parts of the Earth , for it was but one part of it ; it being in a Rock , Mat. 27. 60. and where in Pag. 91. you say men of the lowest Ranke poor despised and of mean esteem may be as properly called the Lower parts of the Earth , and you bring Rom. 12. 16. then I say if such men be the Lower parts into which Christ Descended , It follows that his Discending into the Lower parts of the Earth , was his Descending into men of the lowest Rank poor despised and of mean esteem ( such as you are not who are set up as Masters ) it seems you running into so many things to prove what the Lower parts of the Earth are , which Christ Descended into , you thought if some of them would not serve , others would ; but where the Earth is not yet shaken , nor the Power which must shake and Remove it , known , the Lower parts of the Earth , is covered with thick darkness that they are not discerned , nor the Seed which Rents the Earth known , and that is your state and to you a Parable , who are out of the Power of Godliness over whom the Earth , and earthly things hath Power . J. H. and T. M. Say ( Pag. 93 and 106. ) That the Name Jesus alwayes signifies that Person , as so made and includes the Body of his Flesh , and that the Name Jesus alwayes signifies Christ as come in the Flesh , and so takes in that Body of his Flesh . Reply , If the Name Jesus alwayes Includes the Body of his Flesh , then from this it followes that the Body of Christs flesh was in the Believers , for Jesus Christ was in them , 2 Cor. 13. 5. thus these men confound themselves , and they have said that it is the Annointing that is in the Believers , and not the Anointed which is also false , for Jesus Christ is the Anointed of God , who is in the Saints , and the Anointed , and Anointing is not devided . J. H. and T. M. p. 94. That Christ in the Body of his Flesh , may be truly and properly said to be Ascended , or gone up far above all Heavens , not onely in respect of Glory and Dignity , but even in respect of place or Local height also . Rep. But what place or Local height it is that Christ is Ascended into far above all Heavens Eph. 4. 10. you have not discovered but say it was Heaven it self , or the Heaven of Heavens , as if you had said Heaven itself , & the Heaven of Heavens is far above all Heavens , and then it must be far above itself ; when the Apostle saith he that Descended , is the same also that Ascended up far above all Heavens , that he might fill all things , Eph. 4. 9. 10. and it is the same that first Descended , that Ascended far above all Heavens , this is spoken without exception of place , or Lo●● height as you except , and the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain that glory that he is in who is ascended , who is both in the Heavens and far above them all . Our 10th . Question is , where or how came ▪ Christ into the House where his Disciples were met after his Resurrection , the doors being shut , John 20. 19 , 26. have not some of you said , that then his body being spirituallized , it glyded in at the key hole of the door , you answer , That none of you have said as related . Reply , But in this you have not all cleared your selves from speaking these or the like words , for one that informed me ▪ ( how Thomas Moor the elder spoke of Christs body glyding in at the key hole of the door ) hath been one of his own hearers whom I know durst not bely him , but would be willing to witness it openly to his face , if called to it , and Barthel Wormel Alderman , who owns you did not go about to clear T. Moor , ( from what was said of him as mentioned ) when he took upon him to answer that question , and it appears that T. M. and you have had such like whimseyes in your minds , by what follows where you say these words , viz. Further also , you are assured , that even the Children of the first Resurrection , when they shall attain to that Resurrection of the dead , and have their bodies that now are vile fashioned into the likeness of his glorious body , they in those very bodies being spiritual , immortal , powerful , incorruptible shall be equal to the Angels who cannot be hindred from passage by any corruptible things as doors , walls or the like , but can make their own passage thorow any such obstacles , more easily than mortal bodies through the Ayr , and why should it be thought a thing incredible ▪ &c. Reply , Here people may see these mens imaginations , and dreams , and how against what they have professed , they would appear wise above what is written , for we never read in all the Scriptures that the Children of the first Resurrection in these very bodies of flesh and bones , shall be so equal to the Angels in the Resurrection , as that they may make their own passage thowrow any such obstacles , as doors , walls , and the like , more easily than mortal bodies through the Ayr , as you may see plainly these men imagin ; wherein they shew themselves intruders into things they have not seen being vainly puft up in their fleshly minds , and more like such as are peeping and muttering and running into sorcery , and magick , then men in the simplicity of the Gospel , for it is not at all natural nor proper to a body of flesh and bones ( it being of such a substance ) to make its own passage thorow doors and walls more easily than now it can thorow the Ayr , thus have they shewed their dreaming in the night of thick darkness that is over them . And in P. 129. J. H. and T. M. are speaking about the second coming of Christ , and say that his second coming , his glorious appearing , never yet hath been to any nor now is ; &c. Reply , herein they might as well say , that then never yet were any come to Salvation by Christ , for his second coming is without sin unto Salvation , and for the same end he will appear to them , that yet look for him even to save them from their sins , for his coming in the flesh , wherein he was once offered to bear the sins of many , Heb. 9. 28. This was one coming of Christ , and after this the Saints who looked for him , received his coming in Spirit to work their Redemption , and to make them witnesses of his Kingdome , Glory , and Reign , and to Reign with him over darkness and unrighteousness , but these things have these deceivers put afar off , and discern not Christs Kingdome & Reign , and where they say , that Christ shall then stay all the wicked , even every one that doth not presently submit to serve him and his People , and that then all the Saints that come with him shall have immortal bodies , being as & equal to the Angels ; and that they shall Reign with Christ on Earth , and Judge the World until the final and eternal Judgment , seize upon all the ungodly at the last , and general Resurrection . Reply , Herein they have spoken but faintly and in darkness , for what service it is they imagin the People of God shall then have from the wicked , when they shall be in these raised immortal bodies , they have not told us , nor what need the Saints in these immortal bodies can have of the other part of the Creation , or of the wicked to serve them , especially if their bodies be such as can make their passage so immediately thowrow any such obstacles , as doors and walls , as these men have said , and yet these bodies must be bodies of flesh and bones according to their words : But these vain conceptions do arise from the same Spirit in them that leads them into pride , self-exaltation , and to look for master-ship in the Earth like those that look to gain an Earthly Kingdome , or to Reign with Christ in some outward pomp and glory , and so to bring all under them , and then they would be Lords indeed , but their expectations after that will fail them , & as for their bringing Revel. 20. 4 , 6. It proves not what they would have it ( nor the other Scriptures they have blindly quoted that Christ shall personally Reign a thousand years * for in Revel. 20. 5. it ' spoken of the first Resurrection , which he is blessed that hath a part in , for then he hath a part in Christ who is the Resurrection , & the life whose Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdome , which hath already appeared unto his People , and is set up among them that they are come to Reign with him over the World , and it's deceivers , and these men ( as appears ) imagin that after Christ hath at his coming raised the dead bodies of the Saints , and reigned in person with them 1000. years , there must be another Resurrection of the bodies of the wicked , which they call the last and general Resurrection , but in these things they would shew themselves wise above what is written , but the Kingdome of Christ wherein he will Reign and Rule over the Nations , is Spiritual and Spiritually discerned and known where the Power wherein the Kingdome stands is felt , and not according to the carnal imaginations , of hireling Priests & Deceivers . J. H. T. M. In P. 141. They say that Christ hath appointed together with the Preaching the Cross , this outward Ordinance ( speaking of the blessing and breaking Bread , and taking and blessing the Cup ) for the remembring and shewing forth the Lords Death till be come , which implies that there is even in believers in their several ages , till that his coming again ; natural d●●ness and proneness to forget it , and therefore need of such mementoes , &c. and that he hath appointed such means to stir us up by putting us in remembranes often , they say . Reply , Herein they undervalue the believers , as if they were 〈◊〉 themselves , having natural dulness and proneness to forget the Lords Death ; & the before imagin that the belevers ●●ct have need of such outward ●●ings , as bread and wine to stir them up by putting them in remembrance often , whenas the true believers are come to the substance , and to feed upon the flesh of Christ , and feel his coming , knowing that the bread which they break is the Communion of the body of Christ , and the cup of blessing , which they bless is the Communion of the blood of Christ , which the outward bread and the cup , was but a sign or a figure of , and the end of the World they are come to see , who are in the Communion of the body of Christ , for in the World is the strife and the doting about these outward shaddows which are passed away , where the glory of the Sun is broken forth , and the mysteries of life revealed . And what is it that puts you in remembrance to take bread and wine ? Will not the same stir you up to the remembrance of Christs death ? But you are so dull and prone to forget it , that you must alwayes have need of such shaddows to put you in remembrance often , sure if you were come to feel the power of Christs sufferings , and were come to feed upon his flesh which giveth life unto the world , and to drink his blood , you would not be so forgetful of Christ as you are , for can a living man who is sound , forget his natural food ? And where you say , that we render the Supper of the Lord , as well as the passover a figure , in this have you spoken falsely , for we are come to the Supper of the Lord , and to sup with Christ , and he with us where the bread of God is received , which is not a figure but the substance , to which Supper you are not come who live in pride and vanity , and pleading for sin as your natural heritage , and with such Christ does not Sup , nor feed among such a proud company as you are at your bread and wine , which blindly you call his Supper , when it hath not so much as a true form of the Supper of Christ in it , when his Disciples eat with him in the night , in which he was betrayed , they eat the passeover according to the command , Mat. 26. Luke 22. 8. So that his Supper was not without the Passeover , which was a figure that Christ fulfilled . Again J. H. and T. M. in P. 146. you charg us with corrupt imaginations ; and with signifying in our former Questions , that the blood sufferings and death of Christ that is over and past as to the actual accomplishment and sustaining thereof , and was so finished in that body is not the bread of life or the drink indeed , and the purger of the conscience , but something else ; figured by that , which is now in a present and sensible being nigh to men and in them . Reply , In which you shew your corruptness and perverting the Truth , in that you are striving against what we said of the flesh and blood of Christ , viz. That his flesh and blood is so nigh to every believer , that his flesh is his meat , and his blood is his drink indeed , and this flesh and blood continues , and is felt in the true believer whereby he hath life in him , and his conscience purged , when the sufferings and death of Christ , as to the actual accomplishment , and sustaining thereof is over and past as you confess : But alas ! you are ignorant of this , and cannot tell where the blood of Christ is , as to the existence of it ; and yet you have called it the foundation of your faith and Gods own blood , P. 89. Acts 20. 28. and yet by your words God is without his own blood in Heaven , for you have denyed it to be in Christs body in Heaven , so you cavel at us for witnessing the life and substance of that , which you are both ignorant of , and are confounded about . Where we asked J. H. and T. M. What is their ground for sprinkling the Children , of them they count believers ? About this they shuffle and dare not answer directly for fear ( it appears ) of displeasing their other Brethren , the Priests that differ from them in this , and say they reject our Question , but yet they say That in Baptizing Repentance , and remission of sins is Preached , and witnessed as in his name for them , and through it unto them , as appears by comparing , Mat. 28. 19. with Luke 24. 47 , 48. and Acts 13. To which I say , in this have you wrested these Scriptures , for they will not serve your ends as you would have them . Repentance and remission of sins was not Preached by Christs Ministers to infants through Sprinckling them ; what do you repent for them ? Or promise that they shall repent ? And are you sure that they will prove believers , that sprinckle them as the seed of believers in your account ? and how do you know that other Peoples Children whom you have refused to sprinckle are not as well the seed of believers as those whom you sprinckle ? and yet for that Popish practise you have no rule in the Scriptures of truth You say in P. 155. That we must needs reject and deride imputed Righteousness ( viz. mens being the Righteousness of God in him in an answerable sense , as he was made sin for us . ) Reply , Herein you bely us , for we neither reject nor deride the imputed Righteousness , we being in the faith wherein it is revealed in us , and imputed to us to our sanctification , whereby we are become the Righteousness of God in Christ . 2. Christ was made sin for us who knew no sin , 2 Cor. 5. 21. neither was there any sin in him so that if mens being the righteousness of God in him , be in an answerable sense as Christ was made sin as you imagin & say , then God must account them his Righteousness , when they know none of his Righteousness , nor have any of his Righteousness in them : And this is to make God account sinful men Righteous , and so not to padiffere utnce between the holy and prophane , which was the false Prophets practise , as it is yours also ; who have also said that maintaining a justification by a Righteousness within , is a meer Unrighteousness , wherein you do no less than charg the Apostle with maintaining a meer unrighteousness , for he tould them of the Righteousness of the Law being fulfilled in them , who walked not after the flesh but after the spirit , Rom. 8. 4. And the Saints were justified by the Spirit of God in them , and had the Righteousness of faith in them , & so were not justified in sin , but from it , Acts 13 , 39. 1 Cor. 6. 11. Phil. 3. 9. but their state are you far from , who have been pleading for sin which is your natural heritage , which makes you so unwilling to part from it , and you would fain be accounted righteous in Christ , when you are unrighteous and deceitful , being ignorant of the righteousness of God , and not having it in you , and so would be counted what you are not , and therein are Hypocrites deceiving your selves and others . And where we asked you , what is the Light with which Christ Lighteth every man which cometh into the World ? which T. Meer said , is both natural and spiritual . To this you say , we vary T. M's saying , as ( you falsely say ) divers times we did our own Question about the Light at that meeting , for you say his Answer was to our Question as thus stated , what is the Light which Christ giveth ? And his Answer to this was , that he is the author and giver of both 〈…〉 Light . Reply , In this have you spoken falsely on both hands , for we did not then ask , what is the Light which Christ giveth ? but whetter the Light with which Christ Lighteth every man that comheh into the World be natural or spiritual ? and T. M. said , it is both natural and spiritual ; as also you have lyed in saying that we vary T. M's saying , for he and you have confessed in P. 61. That the Light wherewith Christ Lighteth every man , is both natural and spiritual , and yet one Light that is both natural & Spiritual you could not shew ; thus are you taken in your self contradictions and deceit : And where you say , that Christ is the author and giver of all that is truly called Light , and good to men , this is not to my Question , for it was touching the Light with which Christ Lighteth every man , and not touching all good that he is the author and giver of , for there are many good things that Christ is the author of , that are not the Light wherewith he in lighteneth every man , so that you discover your weakness about the Light . And where you ask , where we read that the Gospel is Preached in every Creature ? Answ. See Col. 1. 23. in the Greek its {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , in every Creature . And where you say , you have answered in simplicity and p●ainnese , and not with hidden things of dishonesty , but by a plain manifestation of the Truth , in the words of Truth have declared your minds , that others when they read may understand ●our knowledge in the mysteries of Christ . Herein your boasting Spirits are seen , you would make men believe as if what you have written were infallible by a plain ma●ifestation of truth , but presently after you say , if in any thing they find you speak not according to the word , let them refuseit and shew you in love by evidence of Scripture your mistake , and you shall thankfully accept it , you say . To which I say , what confusion deceit and doubting is this you are found in ? And what untempered stuff is this ? It appears by this you are not assured that your work is all in the Truth , for all your boasting of your answering by a plain manifestation of Truth and of your knowledge in the mysteries of Christ ; and now both your lies , slanders , and mistakes in many things are made manifest , and you may see them if you be not still wilfully hardened ; and many more aspersions and slanders besides those I have mentioned , have you vomited out in your rage and envy against us in these your answers , which will be a heavy burthen upon you when you come to be silent in darkness as the wicked shall , and to reap the fruit of your doings which will be terrible to you one day . And where you desire the Reader , if ever he see any Reply to this of yours , he would distinctly observe if we pervert not or alter your sayings , by taking them in pieces and changing expressions to mar the sense , &c. and in observance of this caution , you say you doubt not but the Reader will be satisfied even from our selves concerning our Antichristian Spirit , without your adding any more by way of return to ours , which though you will not bind your selves from , yet you do not resolve to do , though we should give you occasion by such sorry shifts and pretended Answers as hitherto we have returned , you say . Reply , As for your suspecting us to mar the sense of your sayings by perverting them , and to lie at the catch to get some matters to snarle about as you say , these are your own practises and it s your own evil thoughts against us , wherein you muse of us as you use your selves , and that arises from the Antichristian spirit that is in you and not in us ; and you are the snarlers ( as your many lies and frequent perverting our words doth plainly shew ) and not we ; what are you afraid to fall into your own pit ? 2. And as for your not resolving to add any more by way of return to ours , I say , to what end should you add any more in return to ours , for you thereby would but add more to your former wickedness and slanders , and blasphemy against the spirit of the Lord , which is in us , which sees over your deceits , and this would but ad more to your shame , for your lying Books many are grown weary of them , who before you vomited out your malice thus against us , had a better esteem of you than now they have ; as also , you have falsely said , that we have been already proved deceivers and Antichrists ; which if it were so , then away with your work , there is no more need of it against us , but your malignity and falseness herein is largly made manifest to many , and you had better never have been born , than have vented such wickedness & perversness out of your mouths if you repent not . A Brief Reply to John Horne's Book , Called Truth's Triumph over Deceit , &c. Wherein his Deceit , Insolency , and vain boasting , and his Triumphing in his wickedness and Lyes , is plainly manifested and here reproved , and the Truth Vindicated . I See , that the Diviners and Deceivers strive against the Truth of our God , and the more their madness and folly and falshood Appears , as it is evidently fulfilled upon this J. Horn , whom this his Book falsely Called , Truth's Tryumph hath sought to Vindicate his own Corrupt Cause , and to clear himself from what I charged against him , in what I writ in that Book Called , The Quakers no Deceivers , the truth of which in his Pride and Deceit , he hath sought to Trample under Foot , but thereby hath he but more discovered his shame and Malice , and folly , and made Lyes his Refuge , and under falshood hath hid himself , as they spoken of in Isai. 28. 15. but the more he strives against the Truth , the more he is ensnared and the worse his Cause appears : Therefore he is not like to Prosper , though he appear strongly in Contention for his Masters work which is Sin and unrighteousness ; So the Reader hereof may take notice of some of the chief of John Hornes matter which he hath laid down in order to his Fathers work , who is the Father of Lyes and Lyars such as he is ▪ And to some of his Principal matter I shall briefly Answer ▪ from whence the Reader may easily Judge what Spirit the rest of J. Hornes Babylonish stuff in his Book came from . In Pag. 3. J. Horne chargeth us , with being an Envious and imbittered People , who hiss like Serpents out of the holes . This is one J. H. his Malitious Slanders , for we are in that Power wherein we are a Torment to him and such Lyars as he is , and in that we can tread upon such Serpents , and not be stung though they shoot forth their stings against us . In P. 5. J. H. Chargeth me with making the Asserting of the sayings of the Holy men of God , a Warring for the Devils Kingdom . Which is a Lye and a Slander against me , for I make his perverting of their sayings ( in which he contends for Sin , which is the Devils work to continue in all , and all to be Sinners , so long as they live ) a Warring for the Devils Kingdom , since that where Sin is destroyed by Christ , 1 Joh. 3. 7 , 8. there the Devils Kingdom cannot stand . And what confusion is this J. Horne in , in his Warring for this his Fathers Kingdom ? One while he pleads that the Prophets and Apostles had Sin in them , and were Sinners so long as they lived , as in Pages 5. and 26. and for it brings Ecc. 7. 20. 1 Kin. 8. 46. when at other timee both he and T. M. have admitted of a further state that the Saints attained to then being Sinners while they lived , for they have said that they might have Sin in them , when they did not do it , and that they that were born of God could do nothing against the Truth , 2 Cor. 13. 8. so that when the Saints sinned not , or did not sin as they have granted then they were not sinners , so in their accusing them , with being sinners so long as they lived , they have shewed their Deceit and confusion . J. H. His Reason to prove that no man is perfectly freed from Sin in this Life , is , that Sicknesses , Diseases , and mortality that came in by Sin , abides upon all men till the death , yea and the bodily death that came in by Sin abides upon all till the Resurrection , he saith . In which he hath shewed his falshood and Ignorance , for does sickness abide upon all men till death ? Surely then he would make all men live a sad life , if Sickness be upon them all their Life time . Again some of the Righteous may be Lyable to sickness or diseases through natural Causes , as hunger , cold , outward sufferings ( which Christs when he was upon Earth , also suffered and was subject to infirmities as they confess , yet that does not Argue therefore that the Righteous are not freed perfectly from Sin in this Life , no more than it Argues that Christ had Sin ; and the death which they dye , who dye in him which is gain to them , did not come in by sin , but that death which is already upon all the wicked though living , as also sickness may come as a Judgement upon such ; and to his saying that bodily death abides upon all till the Resurrection , I say , what bodily death then came upon Enoch , Elijah or Melchizedeck for Sin ? and where dyed they that death ? Gen. 5. 24. Heb. 11. 5 , 2 King. 2. And where I proffered to be willing to prove against J. H. ( If lawfully called ) either in the Market place , Steeple house , &c. 1. That he J. H. is out of the Life , and steps of the true Ministers , and in the steps and Practices of Deceivers , and so is a Hypocrite and no Minister of Christ , who being a Parish Priest is Guilty of the Priests Iniquity whom he hath declared against . 2. That he upholds a dead Formal Worship like the World , &c. 3. That his Ministry wherein he contends for Sin , is Antichristian , and both against the Commands and promises and Works of God , and tends to the making both the Preaching and Praying of Christ and the Saints Ineffectual . 4. And that he the said J. H. is a Forger of Lyes , a false Accuser , a Slanderer , and so one of the Dragons Army who was wroth with the Woman that brought forth the Man-childe , and the Remnant of her Seed that kept the Commands of God ; These I charged J. H. with , and proffered to make them good against him , to which he saith , P. 6. My foolish Challenge ( as he calls it ) he shall not accept , &c. To which I say , ah ! J. Horn , thou wast herein touched ; what wast thou affraid to have thy works tryed and brought to light ? this sheweth thy Guilt ; but thou knowest I was not affraid to meet thee upon thy Challenge , and to Vindicate the Truth , which thou hast split thy self against for all thy boasting , and what thinkest thou , art thou clear from the Deceivers Practices , and the Parish Priests Iniquity , when thou art Preaching for Hire and pleading for it and Tythes ? did ever Christs Ministers plead for and take Tythes as thou hast done ? and dost thou not think your Steeple-house worship , whereunto People are called by a company of Bells , is dead and Formal and your Singing Davids words ( and Experiences ) in Rime and Meeter , and Preaching by an hour glass ? where hast thou Scripture for these your Practices ? I Queried thee about them in a Paper I sent thee , a great while ago , which I never yet received an Answer to , thy guiltiness in these and many other things plainly may be seen . And in P. 6. Thou sayest , thou sent me word that thou should henceforth have no more to do with me , but according to the Apostles Counsel , Reject us . But thou may see thou hast herein Lyed again , for wherefore hast thou scribled so much confused stuff against us ( if thou intended to have more to do with me ? ) and against me in particular hast thou shewn thy vennome the most . In P. 6. Again thou sayest , Thou shalt not go about to plead thy own Cause but leave it to God , and rather take good Hezekiah's course when Sennacherib railed upon him , that would not have him answered again ; Herein hast thou shamefully Lyed again , for thou hast gone about thorow much of thy Book to plead thy own Cause and hast not taken good Hezekiah's Counsel as thou hast pretended , but hast answered again though to thy own confusion . And in Pag. 7. Where thou sayest , The Quakers would be thought to be better than the Prophets and Apostles , This is thy Lye and slander , J. H. And in Pag 8. To my saying , the true Prophet sayes all his Judgements were before me , and as for his Statutes I did not depart from them , I was also upright before him , and have kept my self from my iniquity , 2 Sam. 22. 24 but thou sayest that David acknowledges he had then Iniquity , for how was Iniquity his , if there was none in him ? In which thou hast perverted Davids words , for David saith he kept himself from his Iniquity , and did not depart from the Statutes of the Lord , so that then he was not a Sinner : and our transgressions and our Sins the Saints spoke of , when they were washed from them , and their transgressions done far from them , Psal. 103. 12. Rev. 1. 5. In P. 9. J. H. Saith , It is true too that God promises that his People shall be all Righteous , and clean from all their filthiness , &c. and that God is performing his promises to them , that they may all be perfectly Righteous , even in themselves in the New Heaven and Earth , and New Jerusalem where shall be no unclean thing , he saith : To which Reply , In this hath John Horn overthrown his former Doctrine , for if the People of God shall be cleansed from all their filthiness , as in Ezek. 36. 25. and be all perfectly Righteous in the New Jerusalem , then they are not to be Sinners , nor have sin in them so long as they live , as J. H. hath affirmed , for the Saints before their decease , were come unto New Jerusalem , and to be Citizens there , and to a Kingdom that could not be shaken , into which no unclean thing could come ; and to see the removing of the old Earth , and Heaven which were shaken , Ephes. 2. 19. Col. 1. 13. Heb. 12. which yet J. H. and all such as he , who are contending for the Devils work are Ignorant of . And as for those that John saw , Rev. 14. who were without fault before the Throne of God , I. H. saith , all that heartily believe in Christ , and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel it is Christs Office to present them holy unblameable , and without Reproof in Gods sight , Col. 1. 22 , 23. not because they are sinless in themselves , he saith . Mark his confusion and deceit here , according to J. H. his words here , the Saints who are without fault before the Throne of God , and holy blameless , and without Reproof in Gods sight are Sinners notwithstanding ; as if sin were no fault , and not to be Reproved or blamed in Gods sight ; Oh! what darkness and deceit art thou in I. H. what art thou wholly past feeling ? doest thou not know in thy own particular that every Sin thou hast is Reproveable , and art thou not Reproved in thy own Conscience by the Light for it ? surely thou art exceedingly hardened , and hast denyed Christs Office in thy contending for sin to continue even in them whom Christ presents Holy unblameable and without reproof in Gods sight , who live not to themselves but unto the Lord . And in P. 10. I. H. Saith , He that in such a sence as in 1 Joh. 1. 9. confesseth his Sins is Righteous as Christ is Righteous , for Christ is his Righteousness and yet he that confesseth his sin is not without sin in himself , : In which he hath uttered Blasphemy against Christ , for Christ hath no Sin in himself to confess , as they have who are but confessing their Sins which they have , who are not freed from Sin ; for they who are Righteous as Christ is Righteous , do witness Sin condemned in the flesh , and destroyed , and walk not after the flesh , but after the Spirit being purified from all the filthiness of flesh and Spirit . And to my saying , that Paul witnessed the groaning and travelling in pain before the Birth was born in him or before he was Born of God ( which I. H. hath deceitfully perverted , and wronged my words about ) and that Paul spake to Conditions below his own ( to the Romans ) which I. H. saith , cannot be true , and the other too , for if Paul was but then groaning to be born , and not born of God , he spake of his own state , and if he spake to others states below his own , then is it not true that he had , while an Apostle a time in which he was not born of God . To which I say , in this hath he shewed his blindness and falsehood , for he hath not a ground for these cavals against me , in that I never affirmed , that Paul was but groaning to be born of God when he wrote to the Romans ; nor that he was not born of God when an Apostle , but I know he witnessed the groaning , and travelling in pain before the free born state was witnessed in him , as also after he was come into that state himself , he suffered with the body where it suffered , and travailed for its redemption where it was not redeemed ; which body was not one member but many , and for the suffering seeds-sake in those members , Paul condescended to states below his own , even when he wrote to the Romans , all which he himself could not then be in , when he so wrote , yet a sufferer and a traveller under all those burthens which the body under went , about whose condescending , I have more fully writ in that Book called the Quakers no Deceivers , Page 14. 15 , 16 , 17. the truth's whereof J. H. cannot get over for all his cavails . And where thou sayest J. H. in P. 9. that the temptations God tries his People with , are to try and purifie their faith from the mixtures therein , In this thou art ignorant of the faith of Gods elect , and the mystery of it , for it is pure and stands in the power of God , where there is no mixture of sin , it being of another nature than sin , for it worketh sin out . J. H. in P. 16. Speaking of the birth which is born of God , he saith he denies not but in that birth there might be degrees and grouth after , nor will the perfection of it be as to the body , till the resurrection thereof from the Dead . To which I say , that birth thou never knew , nor its perfection : For how could the body be a Temple for the Lord , if the perfection of the birth be not as to it ? For the Saints were born of water , and the Spirit which cleansed them from all filthiness of flesh and Spirit , so that they became members of his body , of his flesh and of his bone . J. H. saith The Prophet Isaiah , doth not witness that in them a Child was born , and a Son in them was given . Answ. Christ was the first born in many Brethren , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , Rom. 8. 29. and was not Isaiah one of these Bretheren ? Who also had been as with Child , Isaiah 26. 17. Jer. 30. 6. And where in P. 19. thou chargest R. H. and me with counting Christ's coming in the flesh to be but a figure , in this thou hast belyed us , for it was never so affirmed by us . J. H. saith , Some did believe in the Light , before they believed that Jesus is the Christ ; as Nathaniel and Cornelius , and divers others . Answ. Where proves he that by Scripture ? For Christ is that Light , which Cornelius and others believed in , who is not devided : His words here implyes , as if they that believe in the Light , believed in they knew not what . If they believed not Jesus to be the Christ , when they so believed : And my saying a man must believe that Jesus is the Christ , and believe in him too , before he be born of God , as Christ said , believe in the Light that ye may be the Children of the Light , of this J. H. sayes , what is this but to fight against the Apostle John , 1 John 5. 1. and sayes I stick not to make John a lyer , P. 21. In which he hath shamefully lyed , for I own what John said , and I spoke according to Christ's Testimony , who put believing in the Light before being Children of it ; for they received Christ , and believed in his name , that they might become the Sons of God , John 1. 22. and 12. 36 So that J. H. in not owning and believing in Christ before being born of God , implyes , that while the birth which is of God , is but in bringing forth in man , before it be born , man is but in the unbelief , while that work of God is but in effecting and not effected , which shews J. H. his ignorance of the new birth , which is not conceived without faith in the Light , before it is brought forth . J. H. saith P. 24. That the Creatures deliverance into the liberty of the Sons of God , and the Redemption of the Sainte body , which they groaned and waited for , Rom. 8. 19. 20 , 21 , 22 , 23. could not be before those Saints deceased ( for saith he ) the Apostle ( vers. 17 , 18 , ) speaks about their sufferings with Christ , and reigning with Christ , and speaks of the sufferings with him , as first , and the reign as a thing afterward ; the sufferings are of this present time or life , but the glory is to be after revealed , and therefore spoken of as in the future to this present time . Answ. Here you may see the liberty of the Sons of God , and the redemption of the body , which the Saints in their life time groaned and waited for , and the reigning with Christ , and the revealing of his glory in the Saints ; all these hath J. Horne put afar off , as things not attained by any in this life , in all which he hath shewed himself voyd of understanding , and hath denyed the Sons of God their liberty and priviledges , and so hath denyed the end and effect of the Saints travail and sufferings , and the work of the Spirit of adoption , which was sent into their hearts , and of the Son of God who was made of a woman , made under the Law to redeem them that were under the Law , that we might receive the adoption of Sons , Gal. 4. 4 , 5 , 6. and that adoption reacheth to the body of the believers , and was its redemption , which for a time it groaned , and waited for , Rom ▪ 8. and the Saints were brought to reign with Christ upon the Earth , and made pertakers of his glory , being made more than conquerers in Christ thorow their sufferings , and even then the Spirit of glory , and of God did rest upon them , Rom , 8. 37. 1 Pet. 4. 14. And what gross darkness is it for him to say , the Creatures deliverance into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God could not be before the Saints deceased , as if it were not possible to be so . And whereas from J. Horn's not owning that the Saints may attain to the redemption of the body , before the bodies be raised out of the grave , ( according to his wores ) I said from this , then Paul is not yet come to the redemption of his body , which so many hundred years since he groaned and waited for , seeing that the Resurrection of the bodies is not yet come : Oh! how J. Horne is vexed at me ' for thus discovering his blindness , as in P. 25 ▪ he shews his venome in calling us , wicked and corrupt , and poor shifting , for he saith , the Fathers that dyed in the faith , received not as then the promises , and that Abraham hath not yet received all the promises for which he hoped , which is another case than Pauls groaning and waiting for the redemption of the body from the bondage of corruption , for the Scripture does not say , that Abraham groaned and travelled , for that which he hath not yet received ; for it s said that these all dyed in the faith , not having received the promises , but having seen them afar oft and were perswaded of them , and imbraced them , Heb. 11. 12 , 13. but hath not Abraham now received the promises which was to him , viz. seen the increase of his seed , and received the Heavenly City and Country , which he and the Martyrs ( spoken of in , Heb. 11. ) dyed in the hope of ? Since th●●Abraham yet liveth , and is in the everlasting Kingdome , but 〈◊〉 is besides J. H. his matter about Pauls not yet being come to the redemption of the body , from the bondage of corruption , which so many hundred years since he groaned and waited for , which bondage of Corruption J. H. and T. M. have accounted to be the Corruption of mortality in which the body corrupteth in Death and in the Grave , as also they have called it rottenness in their other Book P. 48. from which it follows that Paul groaned , and waited for his body to be redeemed from the corruption and rottenness in the Grave , before ever the body was either Dead or laid in the Grave , or corrupted there : And thus their sottishness appears , so that this we may lay down as their principle , that the redemption of the body from the bondage of corruption , which so many hundred years since Paul groaned and waited for ( when he lived ) he hath not yet attained to it . Alas ! then they would make poor Paul have a long travail and suffering , as also according to what they say in their other Book , Page 47. 48. viz. That it was the Apostles part to groan after the redemption , till Christ's descending from Heaven , ( which they say is not till after the decease ) And whereas I said , that Asa's heart was perfect with the Lord while he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord ( which might be all his dayes , till that was written in , 2 Cron. 15. 17 , 18 , 19. ) but not when his heart was departed from the Lord , and he turned into the Rage , Oppression , and Persecution ( nor when he was in the natural state ) which is clear ●●cording to 2 Chron. 16. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. J. H. saith that is a gloss of my own brain against the authority of the Text . But I. H. can neither overthrow my Answer about this , nor clear himself of it , for was Asa's heart perfect with the Lord , when he relyed not on the Lord ? and when it was departed from the Lord ? and when he was in rage with the Prophet of the Lord , and put him in Prison ? and when he sought not to the Lord but to the Physitians ? If I. H. urge , tkat he was perfect all his dayes , it seems his confidence and faith is grounded upon the History chiefly as the foundation of it ; and yet he will but stick to such places of it in the letter , as he thinks may serve his turn , and other places he can turn and wrest ▪ But seeing his confidence is such in the Letter , or those Hystories of the Kings , I 'le ask him if these two places be both infallible and in union ? viz. in 2 Kings . 8. 26. it s said two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to Reign , and in 2 Chron. 22. 2. it s said forty and two years was Ahaziah when he began to Reign , and see 2 Kings 9. 27 , 28. and what are all these the word of God and in unity ? And where in P. 29. thou J. H. accusest me with alledging the sleeping in security , ( against which the Apostle warns them , ●● Thes. 5. 6. ) as an interpretation of the sleeping in Jesus , In which thou hast shown thy self a gross and impudent lyer , for I never put such an interpretation upon the sleeping in Jesus , for it was publickly known at our dispute , that I plainly distinguished between the sleeping in Jesus , and the sleeping in sin or security , as also I suppose your own relation of the dispute may prove thee false in this thing . And another of thy lies , is , that I did never confess that coming of Christ from Heaven , and that bringing with him them that sleep in him , and raising the dead in Christ , the Apostle speaks of 1 Thes. 4. which I have often confessed and witnessed to , but against thy lies and lying imaginations . And where I charged thee with pleading for sin , and that thy Ministry tends to keep people in it , thou sayest , which reflects upon the Apostles equally with you , P. 31. In this hast thou also lyed , for the Apostles never set forth two such Books chiefly in contention for sin and deceit as thou and thy brethren in iniquity have done ; nor ever pleaded for wearing cuffs and ribbonds and such like things , as you have done , nor did they say the Prophets and Apostles were sinners so long as they lived as thou hast done , P. 26. so that thou art not at all fit to be compared to them who art in so much deceit and lies , and yet thou hast called God to thy witness , and reckoned thy self with the just P. 28. 32. and again in thy deceit hast gone about to vindicate thy saying thou wast able to worry me and such foxes ; which thou hast not yet done for all thy malice , though it 's evident thou art more like a worrier ( or wolf ) than a Lamb . And in page 33. J. H. propounds this for the Readers usefulness , viz. that the same persons that believe , are considerable as they are men and women , and have natural beings of souls and bodies , as springing from Adam by propagation , and so they are sinful , mortal , subject to many infirmities , and have members on earth to mortifie , and yet the same persons as they are by the grace of God begotten to know and believe in Christ , and reckoned after him have another state in him , which is not reckoned after Adam , and what they are in themselves , and so they are Saints holy , spotless , compleat , He saith . I Answer . Was there ever such deceit and confusion as this ? did you ever hear of sinful , mortal , holy , spotless , compleat Saints and believers in Christ ? or did you ever read in Scripture of a sinful spotless Saint ? Thus madly hath J. H. accused the Saint● , and pleaded for sin which in his Fathers work , who before accounted such sinners as are without fault before the Throne of God , and whom Christ presents holy , unblameable and without reproof in Gods sight , P. 9. as if he had tould us of unblameable sinners , and sinners without fault : And as for his counting the spotless Saints sinners in themselves as propagated from Adam , he hath shewed his blindness and deceit , for the spotless Saints are come out of Adams state and are no more subject to his transgression by propagation or natural issue , than the Childrens teeth are set on edge by the Fathers eating sower grapes , Jer. 31. 29 , 30. For they are come into Christ the second Adams state , and live not to themselves but to him , so the twain is made one , and they are one new-man in Christ , in whom he that abideth sinneth not . And after that J. H. hath pleaded for his laughing at the dispute whereby his lightness scorn and madness appeared , Eccles. 2. 2. in Page 34. he saith that none that saw things rightly could see Truth with us , damping or confuting him , for then could he not have laughed or rejoyced over us he saith . * I Answer , This is a sottish reason , for could not the Truth on Davids and the true Prophets side confute and damp their enemies , when they laughed and scoffed at David , and the true Prophets , as I. H. Hath laughed and scoffed at us , so that his scoffing and laughing at us , does not ārgue the truth to be on his side , but rather sheweth his impudency , vain glorying and prophanness , which is largly gone abroad . And whereas I. Horne said , the King Christ shall rejoyce in God , and every one that swearsby ( ●r comfesses ) him shall glory , and to prove it brought Psal. 63. 11. To which I say , if every one that swears by Christ shall glory , then must the drunkards and lyers and all such prophane persons , as swear by him glory , about which I. H. charges me with reviling and blaspheming the very words of Scripture , & calls me a desperate deceiver , in which he hath both belyed me and my words , and slandered me , for I neither reviled nor opposed the very words of Scripture , but witnessed against I. Hornes saying , that every one that sweareth by Christ shall glory , which he would falsely put upon Scripture ▪ for the words are not so in the Scripture , Psal. 63. 11. there 's not Christ mentioned , for that was in the time of the Law before Christ came when oaths were used , so that he in encouraging men to swear by Christ , hath denyed Christ's Doctrine , which is , swear not at all , Mat. 5. and so hath given liberty to the drunkards practise ; and then he telling of his explication of the word swearing , by the word confessing , as he saith its explicated in , Rom. 14. 11. and Phil. 2. 11. In which there is no mention of swearing by Christ at all , but of every tongue confessing to God , and of confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord . Oh! how sadly hath I. H. come off here and shifted for himself , what doth he make swearing by and confessing Christ all one ? then he would make all the Saints who confessed Christ swearers and so transgressors of the Doctrine of Christ , which was against swearing , but not against confessing Christ . Again this impudent man I. H. amongst others of his falsehoods he accuseth me with ; he is not ashamed to charge me with saying , that the 63. Psalm verse 11. tends , to encourage drunkards , and with saying that the Apostles and Proph●●● , when they confest sins were not true believers , with many other lies : Truly I. H. of all the lyers and false accusers that ever I met with , thou art one of the most expert to tell lies and falsely to accuse , thou hast sure been long discipled in they Fathers work , who was a Lyer from the beginning , or else thou couldest not be so expert in it . Again , how falsely and poorly comst thou off , in saying , that in my asking , why should Christ teach his to pray , that his will may be perfectly done in Earth as it is in Heaven ; if it be not in this World to be done ? in this thou sayest , that I Reply , There is nothing to be prayed for , but what is here to be enjoyed in this Word : In which thou hast again lyed , for that is none of my reply , but this is my Reply , That thou hast apeared against the end , for which the Disciples of Christ Preached as he taught them , who prayed , that his Fathers will might be done in Earth as in Heaven ; which thou I. H. hast denyed to be so done in this World : But Christ's Testimony contradicts thee ; for Christ saith , what things soever ye desire when you pray , believe that ye receive them , and ye shall have them , Mar. 11. 23 , 24. And they desired the will of God to be done in Earth as it is in Heaven , where there is no sin : Which my Reply is truth and stands clearly over thee , and overthrows thy sinful Doctrine about the Prophets and Apostles being sinners so long as they lived ; And thy telling of sinful Saints that are spotless , Pages 26 ▪ 33. and such thy sinful Doctrines tends to make the Saints unbelievers , and their praying in effectual , when they prayed that the will of God might be done in Earth as it is in Heaven . And to thy saying That I would exclude the coming of Christ in glory , and his glorious Kingdome out of your Prayers , for that is in the World to come , thou sayest . I Answer , Indeed , thou hast already excluded these things out of thy Prayers thy self , who art in thy wickedness and unbelief , and putting the glorious Kingdome a far off , ( as appears ) as not to be come to in this life , contrary to the Saints faith , who were translated into the Kingdome of the dear Son of God when upon Earth , which Kingdome was everlasting and glorious , and stood in the Power of God , into which no unclean thing can come . And where thou I. H. sayest , Thou shall add no more to G. W. but leave him to the Lords convincement , and silencing . Indeed it 's high time for thee to give over , and add no more indeed ; for thou hast added enough folly and falsehood against G. W. and the Truth cotended for by him , to manifest thy folly and Lying Spirit to the Nation , and if thou add any more to G. W. hereafter , since thou hast promised to add no more to him , but to leave him to the Lords Convincement and silencing , thy Lying Spirit and deceit , is like further to be discovered to the Nation : And thy craving forgiveness for one of thy lyes will not hide thy many more , and much more of thy Confusion I have passed by , and more of thy Aspersions and slanders , which are chiefly against me I have waved as not worth mentioning and trample them under my feet as the dust , knowing that the Lord will recompence them into thy own bosom one day , and Judge thee for them . And as for what thou Layest upon Richard Hubberthorne , it s but like the Rest of thy friuolous false stuff , and his Innocency and uprightness will clear him from thy aspersions ; when thy wickedness and Lyes will stink and appear odious both in the sight of God and men . And , oh ! how hath thy deceit appeared in thy sending so many Questions to R. Hubberthorne , as thou hast done ? and for what end didst thou send them ? seeing that thou and thy Brother Moore have pretended as if you sufficiently knew our Principles already ; and said in a Paper to me as that you sufficiently discovered our corruptness before ; and that you would not own us to be such good Doctors as to learn of us ; nor needed further discover us ; So if thou didst neither send these questions to R. H. to Learn of us , then thou sent them in vain , and it was in thy foolishness , but thy wicked ends which thou hast not yet fulfiled against us are easie to see . And where thou accusest R. H. Of denying that there be many such Angels and Spirits , as the Scripture declares , and of denying the Resurrection of the Body , as will appear if he clearly speak out his minde in Explication of his said Answer , thou sayest . In both these thou hast belyed him , and hast falsely accused him without understanding his minde , as also thou sayest his Answer cannot be understood unless it be known what be these two Seeds , and therefore Queriest of him , and a little after , thou challengest him for explaining his Answer , before it can he seen to agree with the Apostles doctrine of the Resurrection . See how thou bewrayes thy own malice , falshood and folly against R. H. for it appears by thy own words here , that it is not known to thee , whether he deny the Resurrection in his doctrine , or whether he own it according to the Apostles Doctrine , except he further explain his Answer ; and then thou hast Judged him for denying the Resurrection without understanding him , and art like the natural men whom the Apostles Reproved , who spoke evil of the things they understood not , and could not cease from sin , 2 Pet. 2. 12. 14. and thou art never like to understand us aright , while thou in thy malice sets thy self to belye and bespatter us with thy falshoods , and sets thy self against the Truth , as thou hast done : Thy malice and enmity doth sadly darken and blinde thee , so that all people ought to take heed how they follow or believe thee and such as thou art , least they be Leavened with the same malicious Spirit that Rules in thee , and become as blinde as thou art , and so fall into the ditch with thee , and that generation of Deceivers and Hirelings whose way thon art in ; who are guilty of the blood of souls for destroying them , and diverting their mindes from the simplicity of the Gospel , and your doubtful conceptions and vain Imaginations , which God is confounding and will bring them to nought . London in the 6. Moneth , 1660. R. H. His Answer to JOHN HORN . IN thy Answer to my Queries thou seemest ●o be Resolved to say something , although it be absolute contrary to the Truth , and to that which thou knowest to be Truth as will appear in what followes . In Answer to my first thou sayst ; Christ in his Spirit Ascended up to Heaven , when his Body was upon Earth , is this an Answer to the Question ? is the minde or Spirit , called the Son of man according to John 3. 13. which came down from Heaven ? and no man doth Ascend up to Heaven but the Son of man , which was then in Heaven ; so by this thy Answer it appears then , that the Spirit is the Son of man , and that there is no other Son of man that Ascends into Heaven but the Spirit : then what becomes of that Body thou speaks of , if the Spirit onely be that Son of man ? In thy Answer to the 2. and 3d. Queries , thou provest In thy way , that Mary did that which was forbidden by Christ , when she held him by the Feet and worshipped him , but in Mat. 28. 9. there is no forbiding of her to touch him , but this is plainly manifest that thou art in a snare , and cannot tell how to get out , and yet thou wilt be saying something though thereby thou more ensnare thy self : but this Scripture thou wilt once know fulfilled , the wicked shall be silent in darkness . When thou shouldst Answer to the Fourth , thou telst of its being a secret and of prying into things above what is written : although the ground of my Query is grounded upon that which is written in Luke 24. 4. To the Fifth thou saist that the Women did distinguish which was Christ was certain , but how they did so is a foolish curious Question : what certainty is there that they did know , when thou knowest not how ? but this is like the rest of the Priests Doctrine , beating the Ayre , and leaving all People in uncertainties and yet would be paid for so doing ; but the Lord hath made thee manifest with the rest , that you cannot deceive much longer . To the Sixth thou sayest the two Angels were seen visibly , but were not bodies nor Persons of men ; but in thy Answer to the Fourth sayst , that they both saw them as men , and heard them speak and had two Individual Forms ; Now if thou were but simple , and not wilfully blind , thou mightst be the more excused . In thy Answer to the Seventh , thou art more lost and confused then in all the rest , for when thou shouldst Answer who were the 11. Disciples that were met together , mentioned Luke 24. 33. Thou saist that Thomas might occasionally be gone out . Answ. If he was gone out , then the 11. was not together , as Luke 24. Again thou sayst that Matthew was chosen before the Evangelist wrote this Book ; what Darkness and Ignorance is this ? thou art not Questioned when the Book was written , nor when Matthew was chosen , but who was the Eleven that was together ? and whether was Matthew one of the Eleven seeing he was not then chosen , when Christ did arise from the dead ? but there needs not much be said to thee , onely to let thee see thy own folly , least thou should say thou art wise . To the Eight thou seemst to Affirm , that the Scripture are to be taken as they speak ( and not otherwise a Mystery . Answ. Then why dost thou and the Priests give meanings to the Scriptures , and do not let People take them as they speak , but makes them such a Mystery without your meanings , and so plain with them ? but this is thy Practice and Doctrine to condemn thy self in the thing that thou allowest , and builds again that which thou hast destroyed , and so makes thy self a Transgressor . Lastly in thy conclusion thou falsely chargest me : that I do not believe that any of these things mentioned in these Scriptures to be really done . which is not my Faith ; for I do believe that those things mentioned were really done and fulfilled as the Scripture speaks , but it is no new thing with thee to accuse falsely , and to make Lyes thy refuge ; but what in all those things thou hast done against me , I do forgive thee , and do warn thee for the time to come , that thou go not on to commit the unpardonable Sin against God and his Spirit , never to be forgiven . Again in thy last Paper thou declarest thy Ignorance of the two Seeds , and askest what be those two Seeds ? Answ. These two the Scripture speaks of , the Seed of the Woman , and the Seed of the Serpent . 2. Who did or doth sow them Seeds ? Answ. God doth sow the one , and the wicked one the oher . 3. Where be they sown ? Answ. In man . 4. When be they sown ? Answ. When man had a being , and a body to receive them . 5. What be the bodies they shall rise with ? Answ. Their own bodies according to their own natures the one pure , and the other defiled . 6. Whether be these two Seeds , and two bodies in all the world or two Seeds in every man , and the two bodies to or in every man ? Answ. The Seeds are but two in the whole world , having each Seed its own body , and in every o 〈…〉 e one be cast out . 7. When shall those Seeds arise , or be raised , whether after the bodily death or after spiritual death ? Answ. Every one in Its own order , after the death of that which is born of the Flesh , and also after the death of the spirituall wickedness , which is yet alive in all hirelings and Deceivers ( such as thou art ) where the Seed of God is yet in its grave . 8. What are the graves these are in , and out of which they shall arise ? These of which the Scripture speaks , which when thou comest to understand it , thou wilt understand both the Seeds and graves of which we speak , Christ the Seed made his grave in the wicked ; and in the rich in his death , and out of that grave shall rise with his Body into everlasting Life , if thou canst receive it thou maist be satisfied . And as to thy 9. Query , Why I say , that the one shall rise into everlasting Life and the other into Condemnation ? Answ. Because it is so , therefore I say so , and if thou say to the contrary make it manifest , but in this as in other things thy folly and Ignorance is manifest , to ask why I speak the Truth which thou thy self darest not to be Truth , R. HUBBERTHORNE . A POST-SCRIPT . AND T. M. Sen. Thou hast taken a bad work in hand now in thy old age , to joyn thy self and to appear so publickly with a lying Spirit as thou hast done ; But how wast thou liks to do better , when thou hast denyed the Lord in thy turning into the way of the coveteous Tyth-taking-Parish-Priests , whose deceit thou formerly hadst a sight of , and in part wast made to witnes against them ; but that zeal and that simplicity which thou hadst then is turned into darkness , and betrayed , and thou become as sottish and as dark an Earth-worme as the Priests , whom thou hast witnessed against : And thou art become a respecter of persons , and canst bow and cring under such as be great in the Earth , as they do for their own ends , and thou art by many taken notice of , to be more sottish dead and dark , since so much thou hast partaken of the Priests iniquity , then ever thou wast , and the same enemy and betrayer in thee and thy two Disciples , viz. J. H. and thy Son leads you out to deceive others , with your dreams and imaginations , and to betray the simplicity , and to murder the innocent in others , for which you have a sad account to give ; and if thou returnest not to that principle which once brought thee in part to see the deceit of the Priests , but continuest in thy deceit , hypocrisie , and accusing the innocent , and so remainest in sottishness and hardness of heart , thou will be cut off & perish in thy iniquity in thy old age . Alas ! What silly men are ye ? You are never like to gain to your selves any honour and credit among any that are honest hearted , by your Books and aspersions against the poor Quakers ( so called ) for it is so common a thing for them to undergo revilings and aspersions even from the vilest of men , as Drunkards , Covetous Idolaters , and the like , that in what you have done you have not shewn your selves any whit more eminent or famous than such , but have meerly rancked your selves in the Dragons Army , with them , in belying and slandering the iunocent . THE END , Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65868e-350 * Though we own that which brings them to Confesse their Lying , and Faults and can forgive , but we cannot own their Dissembling and feiguedness in it . * which is as much as to say , not Christ in them , but Christ in men ; and that his riches is not the possession ; what folly is this ? * That which is humane is earthly , as humanus & homo are of hhmus the ground from whence man was taken ; so that a humane Soul is an earthly Soul , what then hath Christ both an earthly Soul and a divine Soul in him ? J. H. T. M. I. H. T. M. J. H. T. M. J. H. T. M. T. M. J. H. P. 104. J. H. & T. M. * But what is the beloved City , and the Camp of the Saints , which Gogg and Magogg do compass about when the 1000. Years are ended , Revel. 20. 8 , 9. whether is it an outward City or not ? And where shall it be ? and whether any be yet come to that beloved City ? Notes for div A65868e-8010 * This is another such a reason as I Horns saying that he is not a dumb dog for he could worry me , &c. Notes for div A65868e-10760 J. H. 
A65876	----	The path of the just cleared, and cruelty and tyranny laid open, or, A few words to you priests, and magistrates of this nation, (who say we deny the Scriptures, and that we are antichrists and deceivers, and that we deny the Word of God) wherein your oppression and tyranny is laid open, which by you is unjustly acted against the servants of the Living God, who by the world which hate the light of Christ, are in derision called Quakers : wherein also is something declared both to judges and justices ... : also the ground and cause of the imprisonment of George Whitehead and John Harwood ... / from the spirit of the Living God in me, whose name in the flesh is George Whitehead ... ; also a paper against the sin of idleness ... Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A65876 of text R206645 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing W1944). 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A65876) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 107454) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1136:19) The path of the just cleared, and cruelty and tyranny laid open, or, A few words to you priests, and magistrates of this nation, (who say we deny the Scriptures, and that we are antichrists and deceivers, and that we deny the Word of God) wherein your oppression and tyranny is laid open, which by you is unjustly acted against the servants of the Living God, who by the world which hate the light of Christ, are in derision called Quakers : wherein also is something declared both to judges and justices ... : also the ground and cause of the imprisonment of George Whitehead and John Harwood ... / from the spirit of the Living God in me, whose name in the flesh is George Whitehead ... ; also a paper against the sin of idleness ... Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. Harwood, John. To all you rulers, gentry, priests, and people. 26 p. Printed for Giles Calvert ..., London : 1655. "To all you rulers, gentry, priests, and people ..." signed: John HArwood, p. 24-26. Reproduction of original in the Union Theological Seminary Library. eng Society of Friends -- England -- Apologetic works. Dissenters, Religious -- England. Persecution -- England. A65876 R206645 (Wing W1944). civilwar no The path of the just cleared; and cruelty and tyranny laid open. Or a few words to you priests, and magistrates of this nation, (who say we Whitehead, George 1655 9925 24 0 0 0 0 0 24 C The rate of 24 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-04 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-04 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE PATH of the JUST Cleared ; AND Cruelty and Tyranny laid Open . Or a Few Words to you Priests , and Magistrates of this Nation , ( who say we deny the Scriptures , and that we are Antichrists and Deceivers , and that we deny the Word of God , ) Wherein your Oppression and Tyranny is laid Open , which by you is unjustly acted against the Servants of the Living God , who by the World which hate the Light of Christ , are in Derision called Quakers . Wherein also is something declared both to Judges and Justices so called , concerning Contempt of Authority . Also the Ground and Cause of the Imprisonment of George Whitehead and John Harwood , who are Sufferers for the Innocent Truths sake , In the Goal of Bury in Suffolk . Also a Copy of a Paper , which a Servant of the Lord called Richard Clayton , was moved to set upon a Steeple-house Door at Bury in Suffolk , for which he was caused to be whipped by one Thomas Waldegrave , Justice of Peace in the said County . But though hand joyn in hand , the wicked shall not be unpunished ; but the Seed of the Righteous shall be delivered , Prov. 11. 21. From the Spirit of the Living God in me , whose name in the flesh is George Whitehead , who for Sions sake cannot hold my peace , but testifie against her Oppressors : who am a Sufferer as aforesaid , the 4. day of the 7. month . 1655. Also , A Paper against the sin of Idleness , which we declare against , and live out of ; and are diligent serving the Lord , though that sin be cast upon us , yet it we deny , with all other sins and ungodlinesse , which is contrary to the Gospel of Christ . London , Printed for Giles Calvert , at the Black-Spread-Eagle , near the West End of Pauls , 1655. THE Path of the JVST cleared : AND Cruelty and Tyranny laid Open . See what Christ we own , and who are Antichrists . THat Christ we owne and witness , and are partakers of his Sufferings , who was promised for a Covenant unto the people , for a light unto the Gentils , to open the blind eyes , this is he who was before Abraham was ; who said , Before Abraham was , I am ; who was in the beginning which was the Word , by which all things was made , which Word became flesh , and dwelt among the disciples , and suffered at Jerusalem , and witnessed a good confession before Ponce Pilate ; whom Pilate delivered up to the Jews , and the chief priests and elders , whom they mocked and despitefully used , & put to death concerning the flesh ; but is raised up by the spirit , and ascended into glory , which glory he prayed for , even that glory whereby he was at first with his Father glorified in , wherein he is glorified in his Saints , and is God over all , God blessed for ever ; and he that hath him , hath the father also , and hath life ; and he that hath not the Son , hath not life ; for he is the light of the world and in him is no darknesse ; and He is the Way the truth and the life ; and he that followeth him shall not abidein darknesse , but shall receive the light of life . And this is the true light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world , which Iohn who was a man sent from God was a witnesse of , and we are witnesses of , and do not deny the Word , nor the Scriptures ; but they who persecuted him even the Scribes and pharises , and the chiefe priests and elders of the people , who had a profession of the Scriptures , of Moses words , and the prophets words : they did deny the Scriptures , even Moses who wrote of Christ , so did not beleive Christ , and so denyed him who was the Word which became flesh . And so his word did not take place in them , because they did not believe that he was the Christ , but looked for another Christ to come in pompe like themselves , but against their pride he did cry , and said , Woe unto the Scribes and Pharises , who were called of men Masters , stood praying in the Synagogues , had the chiefest places in the assemblies and greeting in the markets : and laid heavy burthens upon the people . But he said to his disciples , Be not ye called masters : and when he sent them forth he forbad them to take money or bag or Scrip : but freely ye have received , freely give : and many of them had no certaine dwelling place , but suffered persecution and hunger and nakednesse and prison and stripes and perils , and were chargeable to no man : but where they had sown Spiritual things they said , if we sow to you Spiritual things , it is a smal thing if we reap of you carnal things . But these were not the world , for the world was persecuters and revilers , and haled them out of the Synagogues ; and such as Christ sent we owne , and the Scriptures we own , and Christ come in the flesh we owne and witnesse ; but you Magistrates and you Priests of this nation who are upholden by such as persecute and hale out of the Synagogues , and imprison , and whip , & despitefully now use such as are sent freely to witnes forth the truth , and for that Christ , and against Antichrist , and deceivers , such as Christ cryed wo against : here , you priests of this nation , who are found in their steps which Christ cryed woe against , even the steps of the Scribes & Pharises , & you Magistrates , Justices , Judges , & Rulers , who uphold such , and persecute , imprison & cause to be whipped : and fine such as are sent to bear witness against them that are found in Scribes and Pharises steps ; who lay heavy burthens upon the people , and are called of men masters , stands praying in the synagogues , and have the cheifest places in the assemblies : you are filling up the measure of their iniquities , who persecuted Christ , & upheld them which Christ cryed wo unto , and them who persecuted the true prophets , who was sent to cry out against the false prophets , these cryed against such as sought for their gain from their quarters , & such as were hirlings , & such as bare rule by their means , and taught lyes , who said they were sent of God ; when God never sent them but man , before they were sent : and these were the prophets who cryed against the false , who said ; thus said the Lord , and Heare the Word of the Lord . But God never spake to them : but Jeremiah who cryed against such was not a proud man , nor a covetous man , as the priests of England are now , who are in these steps before mentioned , which the false prophets were in . But Jeremiah was mocked , & they were stoned & some killed , and Jeremy was set in the stocks for witnessing forth the truth against the false prophets ; and put into adungeon and here we are witnessed by the true prophets , Christ , & his Apostles , who ever witnessed against deceivers , and such as lived in pride and coveteousness : and Amos who was a true witness for God , witnessed against the abomination of rulers , and people ; he was not made a Minister by the will of man , nor upheld by a carnal weapon , nor an outward Law ▪ but when he prophesied against the house of Jeraboam , then Amaziah , the priest of Bethel complained to Jeroboam the King against Amos ; and said , the Land was not able to bear his words , and bad him flee away into the Land of Judah , and prophesie no more at Bethel ; for he said It was the Kings Chappel , and the Kings Court , as you may read , Amos 7 , 10 , and ●o you priests of England complain : moreover many of you do swear to the Magistrates against us , who are witnessed by Christ , the true Prophets , and Apostles : both in our sufferings , and testimony w●ich is against all deceit and deceivers ; ●o you Priests and Magistrates cause us to suffer , because we are offended at the truth , which witnesses against all deceit , without respect of persons , whereof they that are sent of God were witnesses : and so by you some suffer imprisonment , some whipping , some stocking , and some you imprison and fine 10 , or 40 , or 50 , Marks , and they that stone & hale out of the Synagogues , their hands you strengthen against the innocent , and execute your law upon them , who are redeemed from that which the law takes hold upon , who do witnesse against transgression , where ever it is by the truth which respects no mans person . And here the end for which you are brought forth , is to witness for God & to the establishment of Judgment , and mercy , & righteousnesse & peace , which takes away all occasion of outward punishment , and carnal weapons , where it comes to be established , and set up in the hearts of people ; and this they who come to witness set up in them which they that own the Light of Christ are witnesses of , dare not act in their own wills , in Tyranny , and Cruelty , against the innocent who are freely sent to witnes forth the truth against all deceit & cruelty , & oppression which is acted in this generation , even among you Priests & Magistrates , both Judges Justices & Rulers , whose ears are open to heare the complaints of these proud and co●ou●s priests , who make great petitioning and complaints against us , who suffer by the cruelty of you , who cause su to be sent to prison , when you can charge su with the breach of no known Law , and cause some to be whipped , & some to be fined , as aforesaid , and the priests that complain for the help of Magistrates , to have this people , called Quakers , suppressed because they are affraid that their Tythes and maintenance should faile them , and they come to lose their gifts , and rewards ; because we cry against such as Isaiah cryed against , who seek for their gain from their Quarters ; as you may read , Isa. 56 , 11 , and against such as beare rule by their means , which Ieremiah cryed against ; Ier. 5. and such teach for hire , and divine for money ; which Micah cryed against , Mica . 3. and against such as Christ cryed woe against , as you may read , Matt. 23. and we cry against such as go in Cains way and Balaams , which Iude cryed woe against Iude. 11. And here they are affraid that their riches and honour should faile them , whose riches is earthly , and honor is earthly : and here you Magistrates uphold such as the Prophets , Christ , and his Apostles cryed against , and causes the innocent to suffer by your wills , contrary to the Law of Justice ▪ and equity ; and so are filling up the measure of your iniquities , who persecuted the true prophets of Christ and his Apostles ; and you may consider by the Light in your consciences , what Reformation and Just government is established by you , who have long professed Liberty , Justice , and equity ; when now this is the end of your profession , and praying , and your fasting , and your dayes of thanksgiving , even persecution , and oppression , and strengthening the hands of evil doers against the innocent , and so neglect the fast which the Lord requires , read Isa. 58. 6. Is not this the fast that I have chosen , saith the Lord , to loose the bands of wickedness , to undoe the heavy burthens , and to Let the oppressed goe free , and that ye break every yoak , but instead of this , ye strengthen the bands of wickedness , and goes on in your cruelty , and oppression . Ah wo , word , is the end of your profession , who are so acting in your Cruelty , and Tyranny ; against them who for conscience sake cannot bow to your wills , but witness against the deceit which is acted in this Nation , both among the Priests and People : therefore among you Ruand Magistrates is this Scripture fulfilled . The Rulers take counsell together against the Lord , and his Annointed ; and the blood of the Saints shall be required , at your hands who persecute , even the blood of all the holy men of God , who suffered , from Abel until this generation . Oh , be ashamed of your profession , and you fair pretences of reformation , since the Bishops were cut off , who now are acting in the same cruelty that they acted in , and yet you can speak against them , and their Tyranny , and you found in the same ; Oh fear and dread the living God of heaven and earth , whose Judgment and wrath and fiery indignation slumbers not , for these things : Oh the blood of the righteous cryes in the ears of the Lord of hosts , for vengeance against you persecuters ; your prayers and pretences , of serving the Lord , is abomination unto him , and your Sacrifices is wearisome unto the Lord , and grievous unto him , as the Sacrifices and oblations of the Rulers , of Sodome , and people of Gomorrah was , which the prophet Isai cryed against , who said unto them Your new moones and your Sabbaths , and your calling assemblies I cannot away with : it is iniquity , even your solemn meetings saith the Lord ; your new moons and appointed feasts my soul hateth , they are a trouble to me , I am weary to bear them when you spread forth your hands , I will hid mine eyes from you , yea when you make many prayers , I will not heare , your hands are full of blood , Isa. 1. 15. Therefore all you that act in persecution , and cruelty , and oppression , read your selues both Priests and Rulers , to be in that generation which Isai and the rest of the prophets did cry against , and are partakers of their sins ; and now you live at ease in pride & fullnes of bread , as Sodom & Gomorrah did , and the end of your profession liberty and freedom is oppression and Tyranny , as was in the Bishops time , to those that cannot stoop to your wills , when as you ought to have Judged the cause of the oppressed , and to have undone the heavy Burthens , and to have let the oppressed goe free . Therefore hear the word of the Lord , ye Rulers of this Nation , who Joyne with the priests , who goe in the way of Cain to envy , and run greedily after the error of Balaam for gifts and rewards ; you Joyne with them who go in the steps of the false prophets ; and of them which Christ cryed woe against , who are called of men masters , stand praying in the Synagogues , have the cheifest places in the assemblies , and the greetings in the Markets , and lay heavy burthens upon the people , and devour widdows houses ; and so here the cause of the widdows , and opressed you do not judg : therfore the Lord may justly say of you as he said of that people , which he had set in a fruitful place , when I Looked for Judgment behold oppression , therefore repetn of your cruelty , and undo the heavy burthens , and let the oppressed goe free : for if you still refuse , and rebel against the Lord , which is a God of truth and equity , he will cut you off , and give you your portion among all the oppressors and persecuters , whom the Lord in his indignation cut off , the Lord of hosts hath spoken it , and what will ye do in the end of your persecution , when the Lord calls you to an account ; will not the Lord avenge his quarrel upon Sions oppressors , and ease him of his enemies ? Therefore , remember you are warned , lest you are pertakers of the plagues , who go on in persecution and oppression , who pervert true Judgment , and despise equity , and so have your portion with the workers of iniquity . So to the light in all your consciences I speak , which loves equity and true Judgment , and is the condemnation of all the practices before mentioned , which are contrary to it . And the condemnation of all them , that live in them , by which light are witnessed who walk in the light , and to it we are manifest , whether you heare or forbear ▪ A few words to you both Judges and Justices so called , that say we contemne Magistracy , and are not subiect to Authority , and Government , because we cannot put off our hats , nor bow to you when we are called before you . THe Powers that are ordained of God , who are sent of him , for the punishment of transgressors , and for the encouragment of them that do well , these we own , and are subiect to them for conscience sake ; knowing that such are not a terror to good works , but to evil ; for such execute the law in righteousnes , upon them who are guilty of the transgression of it , for because of trangression the Law is added & there the Law is executed in its place , and in righteousness ; and so those that execute the Law in its place , they are for the establishment of righteousness and peace ; and , contrary to the Law of Justice , & equity , dare not act in their own wills , nor for their own ends : and herein they seek not themselves , nor their own glory , nor honour , but the glory and honour of God , who is honoured and glorified among them who act in truth and righteousnesse , and love the Lord ; and to them our souls are subject . But you who act in cruelty and persecution as before mentioned , who execute your law upon the innocent , you do not encourage them that do well , but encourage them that do ill , and strengthen the hands of evil doers , and make strong the bands of wickedness , who indite , and fine , and imprison those who cannot for conscience sake bow to your wills , nor put off their Hats , to satisfie your corrupt wills : wherein you are seeking your own honour , and not the honour of God : and because that many cannot for conscience sake , act these heathenish customs , to satisfie your vain minds , and your fleshly exaltations , wherein you act in pride and high-mindedness , therfore by you many are fined , and endited , and imprisoned contrary to any Just Law , and contrary to the Law of the Nation : and no such vain custome can you prove that ever any of the Saints did act , when they were brought from vanities to serve the Living God ; But the world and the conformities and fashions of the World they were brought to deny , and by the same Spirit are we brought to deny all these heathenish practices , and to witness against the World who live in them ; and because we witness against the World , that the deeds thereof are evil , therefore we are hated , and by the World suffer : and here ye Magistrates who plead for these things , and cause the innocent to suffer , for denying them , you act in the costumes of the world contrary to the Light of Christ , which condemns the World with its deeds and sayes that we contemn Magistracy and Authority because we cannot stoop to your wills , in these customes ; here you falsly accuse us , for Authority we do not contemn , for by the Spirit of the Living God , whereby we are Transformed , by the renuing of our minds , we do deny the conformities of the world as the Apostle said ; Be not ye conformed unto this World , and the same Apostle did not contemn Authority , but said , Let every soule be subject to the higher powers , and , Rulers are not a terror to good workes but to evil , but he speakes not of pulling off the hat , nor bowing , neither gives he liberty to any of you to persecute and imprison them who cannot , for conscience sake , bow to your wills , nor put off their hatts ; for he was imprisoned , and persecuted , and did suffer by that generation you are in , who suffered stripes , tumults and imprisonment , and many perils , & of his sufferings are we pertakers : and the cloak that you have for these vanities , will not hide you : for you say that though you have no written Law of the Nation , for puling off hats , nor Scripture to prove it , yet you say that it is the custome of the Nation ; as bowing &c and that the very heathens do bow , and that the Egyptians bowed ; I answer , so is drunkenness , and Lying , and Swearing , persecution , and fighting , and Quarreling , accustomed in this Nation , which many that act in , go unpunished , which the righteous Law of God takes hold upon : but the righteous Law of God speaks not of puting off a hat , therefore be ashamed of your actings , and be ashamed of your customs , who makes a Custome a Law , to act in envy and cruelty , against the servants of the Lord . And when you alledge , that Jacob bowed to Esau , and called him Lord , and that Abraham bowed to Seth , who was a Heathen . I answer , that which was acted by them , when they bowed , was not a command to you and that you might seek honour one of another , who profess your selvs to be Believers and Christians , to imitate these heathenish customs , though for a time Jacob and Abraham bowed , and Jacob called Esau Lord , who was the elder , but when the elder was made to serve the younger , he was not Lord , but servant : and so out of Esaus state , and the Heathenish nature , we are redeemed , and the one Lord , who is the true God , we witness : so out of the many gods , and many Lords , which are in the World , vve are redeemed , and hovv can ye believe and seek honour one of another , for the true God is no respecter of persons ; and he that respects persons , commits sin : and so by you that seek eye-service , and honour one another , is not the Lord honoured . But ye seek that to your selves , which belongs to God ; and this is He , vvho reigns over the house of Iacob , and is greater then Abraham . Let the heathens bovv to him , vvho hath redeemed us out of the heathenish nature , for he wil break the limits of the heathen , and dash them to peices , and all your limits , who live in envy , and rage in the heathenish nature ; and plead for their customs , and would limit the righteous to walk in their steps , and to bow to your proud flesh , : for as I live , saith the Lord , every knee shall bow to me , and every Tongue shall confess unto god ; as you may read , Rom. 13. 11. Isai. 45. 23. Phil. 2. 10. Therefore bow to the Lord of hosts , and let proud flesh stoop before him , who seeks honour to your selves , which belongs to God , Fear before the Lord , and tremble , at which Name every knee shall bow , and every tongue confess to the glory of God . Then examine what will be the end of your Earthly glory , whose honour must be laid in the dust : who seeks your own glory , and not the glory of God : whose honour and glory we seek , and not the honor of man : and therfore we cannot stoop nor bow to your pride , nor conform to your vanities , which are acted in your wills , contrary to the pure Law of God ; which respects no mans person : and here you act for your own ends , and punish the servants of the Lord , who for his sake cannot submit to your deceit , and heathenish vanities ; you act contrary to the Law of God , and the Law of the Nation , and for the Lords sake act not , neither were you sent of God to this end , therefore accuse us not for contempt of Authority , neither say that we are not subject to every ordinance of man , for the Lords sake : for to every Ordinance of man , which are for the Lords sake , we are subject : whether it be to supream , or unto ▪ Governors , as unto them that are sent by him , for the punishment of evil-doers , and for the praise of them that do well . But you who are sent to judge of Causes , between man and man , according to the truth , and equity , by an outward Law , which takes hold upon transgression , and now execute power upon them , who by the Law of the Spirit of life are made free from the Law of sin , and death , and so would usurp Authority over the consciences of the people of the Lord , whose consciences is exercised by the Light of Christ , which condemns the World with its deeds , and so you go beyond your limits , to judg in things pertaining to God , who is Judge , and Law-giver : and so here you act in frowardness , contrary to the Light of Christ in you , and so would lord it over Gods heritage : and here let the Rulers among the heathen , which Christ spoke of , condemn your practices , who said , the Kings of the Gentiles exercised Authority over them , but ye would exercise Lordship over us , who are not Heathens , but Christians . Therefore , ye Magistrates of this Nation , see whom you are acting for , and what order is set up by you , and whose glory it is you seek , and who it is that you seek to exercise Authority over : for when the Judgments of God comes upon you for acting in your wills , and in your cruelty , against the innocent , you will witness them to be Just by that of God in your consciences , and your Just reward . And know that in as much as you persecute them , whom Christ hath sent , you persecute Christ : therefore now while the Lord doth not speedily execute his Judgments upon you , consider your wayes , and see what you act , and whom you act for , as you will it eternally answer . The ground of John Harwoods & my imprisonment ; that Innocency may be cleared , and the wicked bear their burthens . UPon the 30 day of the 5th month , being the 2d day of the week , I & my two Bretheren , Jo : Harwood , & Richard Clayton , , passing through a town called Bury , in Suffolk , about 5 Miles from Halstead , in Essex , where we were at a meeting the firstday before , in the feare and service of the Lord , and passing by the steeple house , in the said Bury , Richard Clayton , was moved to set up a paper upon the steeple house door , and John Harwood ▪ & I passing on a litle before , and seeing some people of the said Bury , coming to Richard Clayton , where he was seting up the paper , and so we passed back to them , who stayed him , and were about him reading the paper ; who could find nothing contrary to Scriprure in it : so John Harwood , and I , being to speake a few words to the people there present in the name of the Lord , exhorted them to turne to the Lord from the vanities , & wickednesses they lived , in , which several of them was made to confess the truth of which was declared to them , and the mouths of many who were in rage , were stopped , and so we passing from the people there present there came a Constable ▪ called Richard Hum , who stayed us , and said , he had a warrant to stay us : so we demanded to see his warrant , but he had none to shew , but said he had order from the Justice , & so carried us two before Harbert Pellam , called Justice of peace , in the said Bury , whose office is for Essex : so first I was carried before him , and he examined me , & then John Harwood , of our names , and country , and abode , where we had been , and what money we had when we came out of our own countryes : which we answered as we were moved , and had freedom ; and many other vain questions he asked in his b●sie vain Light mind , which were not worth mentioning : and when I was moved to speak a few words , concerning his rage ▪ & filthiness , which he uttered forth , he said , he sent not for me to preach : but he could lay no transgression , nor the breach of any known Law to our charge : but in his fury , & rage , sent us by the Constable & some others with him , to one Thomas Walgrave , who is called Justice of peace at Smalbridg in Suffolk , about half a mile from the said Bury , whose office is for Suffolk : so when we came before the said Walgrave , we were carried into the house , & they first examined Richard Clayton , of his name , and country , and where he had been , and what was the cause of his coming into that country , and who sent him , which he answered as he was moved ; and some other vain Questions were asked him : & when he had examined him he then examined me of my name & country , and where I was born : and how long I had been acquainted with Richard Clayton ; and where I first met with him , which I answered according to my freedom , & some other vain needless Questions were asked not worth mentioning ; so he could lay nothing to our charge , concerning the breach of any Law : we being free born English men , and not Chargeable to any ; so then John Harwood was brought before him : and Richard Clayton , & I , commanded to go out of doors with a keeper , so the said Waldegrave , asked John Harwood , if he would answer him all the Questions that he should demand of him . But Jo. denyed to be limited to his will , but as he had moving : so the said Harbert Pellam , being there present , who before had examined us , and had our examination in writing : John Harwood told Walgrave , that Pellam had his examination in writing , and bad him , if he had any thing to accuse us of , to declare what he had against us : so then the said Waldegrave being in a great rage , would not suffer him to speak , but caused him to be haled out of doors : so he and the said Pellam , consulted a great vvhile together : so after a time , Walgrave came forth , and spoke to John Harwood , and in a fury put off his hat , and cast it dovvn , and asked him his name , and country , vvhich Questions John ansvvered : so he came to me , and asked me if I would work at hay : so I denyed to be bound to such task-masters : for I was in that Calling whereunto God hath called me , wherein I was chargable to no man : for he had nothing to do , to lay any task upon any of us , who was brought out of Egypt , from under Pharoahs Task-masters ; so he went in , and sent out a Warrant to imprison John Harwood , and another : to have Richard Clayton whipped at Bury , and sent from Constable to Constable , till he came at his outward being : so he charged the Constable , to keep me that week , till another Justice came from the Assizes at Bury ; so we demanded of him what Law we had transgressed . But he would shew us none , neither declared unto us any transgression that we had acted . But called the paper that Richard Clayton set upon the steeple-house door , a seditious paper , and non-sence , which he could not prove , nor shew any thing in it , contrary to the Scripture . But he would scarce suffer us to speak , but did stamp , and rage , and caused us to be haled out of doors , so we were had back again to the said Bury , and according to the Warrant , Richard Hum , the said Constable , the same night in the open street , whipping Richard Clayton , he being stript naked to the midle about the wast , so presently after he had whipped him , he sent him away that nighr , according to the warrant : and John Harwood , and I was kept at an Inn in the same town that night , and early in the morning , John was sent with 2. men to the prison of Bury , St. Edmonds in Suffolk , about 16. miles from the said Bures , so until the next day , under the Constables custody I remained , so in the morning there came a warrant , from the said Waldegrave , to the Constable , to send me to the said prison of Bury : so accordingly I was sent the same day , where we remaine in bonds by the cruelty of these called Justices , to wit , Harbert Pellam and Thomas Waldgrave , and are not convinced of the breach of any known Law , of the Nation . But in patience we suffer , and in our sufferings , have peace ; our bonds being unjustly laid upon us , by them who profess Justice : but here they , and their profession is seen , and with the light of Christ condemned to be contrary to the law , justice , and equity . Therefore let the supreme , and governors , who are in Authority , consider for all your professing Liberty to tender consciences and Religion , what Liberty by you is brought forth : when as we , who are sent of the Lord , to bear witness unto pure religion , and to witnesse forth a good conscience , and our labour and travel is , that justice and equity might be set up , and deceit confounded : and also we being free born English men , may not have freedom , to passe the high-way about our lawful calling . But have such bonds , and snares , laid upon us both contrary to the Law of God , and the law of the Nation ; and contrary to that liberty which hath been promised to them professing Godlinesse by the supreme of this Nation . As in the act for the government of England , Scotland , and Ireland , in Article , 36. That to the publike profession held forth none shall be compelled by penalities , or otherwise , but that endeavours be made to win them by sound doctrine , and the examples of a good conversation . Article . 37. That such as profess faith in God by Jesus Christ , though differing in Judgment , from the doctrin , worship or discipline publickly held forth , shall not be restrained from : But shall be protected in the profession of the faith , and exercise of their Religion , so as they abuse not this Liberty to the civill Injury of others and to the actuall disturbance of the publique peace on their part ; provided that this liberty be not extended to Popery or Prelacy , nor to such who under the profession of Christ hold forth and practise Licentiousnesse . Article 38 : That all lawes , statutes , ordinances and clauses in any law , statute , and ordinance to the contrary of the aforesaid liberty , shall be esteemed Nul and ●oyde . Now let the Supreme , and Magistrates , see and examine what performance there is acted by you , of these solemne promises which hath beene promised for the liberty of Godlinesse in this Nation , when such injustice is winked at , and acted by you who professe justice , and are set in authority to act according to the law of justice and to remove unjust causes : when now both contrary to the law of God , and contrary to your own law , you cause the servants of the Lord to suffer Whipping and Imprisoning , them which you cannot charge which the breach of any law : here be ashamed of your unjust actings , ye oppressors and persecutors of the innocent , and know that at your cruelty the Lord will not winke , but though you joyne hand in hand you shall not go unpunished , and the very heathens may condemn you that whip and act contrary to your own law , against them , whom the law condemnes not : for when they were ready to Whip Paul , he said to the centurion , Is it lawfull for you , to scourge a man that is a Roman and uncondemned , and said he was free borne , and so both the centurion and the chiefe Captaine , who bound Paul were afraid , after they knew that he was a Roman , and caused him to be loosed : but though we be free-borne English men and uncondemned by the law , you are not ashamed to Whip and act in cruelty against us , therefore see what equity is owned by you , and see whethe● you do as ye would be don by , yea or nay : and let al● people who have any feare of God in them , see you● shame and envy , you utter forth and have acted againe the innocent . For they who are authorised to beare this sword of justice , ought not to be a terrour to good work-but to the evill , and saith the Lord by his prophet David he that ruleth over men must be just , ruling in the feare of God , and such who rule in the feare of God , are not persecutors of the innocent , but doth defend and preserve , such as these men before mentioned whip and persecute . For the law which because of transgression is added , doth not take hold upon the innocent , which no law hath transgressed . So ye who have acted your cruelty upon the innocent , who in the sight of God , are free from the breach of any known law , who according to your own law , by you ought to be protected ; here you are found transgressors of the law , which because of transgression is added , and with it are condemned , and with the light of Christ you are seene to be the Magistrates , which beares the sword in vaine , who turnes the edge of the sword against the righteous seed , which you ought to turne against the wicked , that the land might be emptyed of transgressors and evill doers : for the law was not made for the righteous , but for the lawless and disobedient ; which law is witnessed by us , ( to be good in its place ▪ ) who suffer by the wills of unreasonable men , contrary to the law of God and the law of the Nation : for we who professe faith in God , by Jesus Christ , and through faith hath victory obtained over that nature , which leads into the transgression of the Law , ought according to your own law , to be protected in the exercising of our religion , but you instead of protecting us , whip and imprison us . And here let your own law be a witnesse against you , and be ashamed of your unjust actings , but the Lord of God of Heaven and Earth , ( who is our protector ) who is righteous , who beares not the sword in vaine , who will execute the judgment upon the transgressor , who will reward you according to your works , before him you shall not be able to stand in judgment , in the day of your account , therefore come downe to the light in your consciences , which calls for justice and equity , and awake to righteousnesse , all ye that li●e in your Pride and presumption , and therein act against the innocent , for the day hastens wherein you will be found out by the righteous judgments of God : for the cry of the innocent , which is oppressed by you , hath entred into the eares of the Lord of Sabbath , who will come quickly and reward every one of you according to your deeds . Therefore repent of your cruelty before the evill day come , least you be found guilty of the blood of the innocent , when the Lord calls you to an account : for know this that when the Lord comes to plead with you , that of God in all your consciences , will witnesse for God in his righteous judgments ; therefore by that light which is pure in your consciences learne your condemnation , and own it upon those things before mentioned , which are contrary to the light , that peradventure you may be hid in the day of the Lords wrath . From us who are sufferers in outward bonds , for the testimony of a good conscience , for the innocent truth sake , which shall stand for ever a witnesse against all cruelty , and bloody persecutors , in which truth we have assurance and peace in our sufferings , who are counted by the world deceivers yet true , persecuted but not destroyed . Our names according to the flesh are George Whitehead , Iohn Harwood &c. From Bury Gaol this 14 of the 9 Month , A True Coppy of the Paper which Richard Clayton was moved to set upon Bures Steeple-house doore , for which he the said Thomas Waldgrave , called Iustice of peace caused him to be whipped which he the said Thomas Waldegrave called a seditious paper and non-sence . IF you do set up such Ministers as seeke for their gaine from their quarters , you do set up such as the Prophet disapproves , Isa. 56. 11 : And if you do set up such as do beare rule by their meanes , you do set up such as the Prophet Jeremiah , and the Lord disapproves , Jer. 5. And you that set up such as seeks for the wool , and make a prey upon the people , you set up such as the Prophet Ezekiel disapproves , Ezek. 34 : And you that set up hirelings , set up such as Micah disapproves , Mica . 3. And you that set up such as are called of men Masters , stands praying in the synagogues , and have the chiefest places in the assemblies , you set up such as Christ disapproved Math. 23 : And you that set up such as are given to filthy lucre , you set up such as the Apostle disapproves 2 Pet. 2. 14. And you that set up such as persecute , and cause people to be sent to prison for speaking the truth in the synagogues , you set up such as goe in Cains way Jude . 11 , And you that set up such as receives guifts and rewards , the wages of unrighteousnesse , you set up such as minde earthly things , whose God is their belly , which the Apostle disapproves ; Phil. 3. 10. And you that set up such as strives to keep out Gods labourers out of his Vineyard and keep up such which Christ and the Apostles disapproves ; and you that set up such as would not suffer another to speake that stands by , when any thing is revealed , but sends him to Prison if he do , you set up a persecuting Spirit , full of disorder , and are judged by the Apostles life and doctrine , ( who was a Minister of Christ ) both you that set up , and them you do set up , ( who said they might speake one by one ) and so you all by this Spirit are judged to be in the Spirit of errour , and to be such as would quench the holy Spirit , and would limit the Spirit of God , and despise prophecying and dare not try all things , manifesting your selves to be haters of the light , and disapproved , with the Prophets and Apostles , and their practices and life : and you that sets up such as gives people , Davids Quakings , Tremblings , Cryings , Roarings , and Tears , and Prophecyes , and prayers and praises , in Meeter mixt together , you set up such as have not the Spirit of understanding to sing with the Spirit and with understanding , which Spirit brings to know the time of praising , Praying , Groaning , and Crying , and Trembling , and Quaking , and Prophesying : the Spirit of understanding witnesseth , these things in their places , but you give Scoffers , and Scorners , and Drunkards , and Swearers , and Threatners , and Persecuters , Davids conditions to sing , for he was scoft at when he was in such conditions , and these do so now at these that are in such conditions . And if you set up such as takes Tythes , you set up such as the Apostle denied , for the Apostle said , the Preisthood was changed , and the law was changed also , Heb. 7. and if you set up such as is before mentioned , you set up such as are contrary to Scriptures , and plants no Vineyard , nor labours in the Vineyard ; for first they must plant a Vineyard , before they eat of it . To all you-Rulers , Gentry , Priests , and people in the Nation , who accuse us , you call Quakers , for idleness ; Take notice of your envy , you have against Gods Labourers . WHereas by many of the Magistrates , Priests , and People of this Nation , we are accused of idleness , who are sent by the Lord of the Harvest into his Vineyard to dresse it ( as the Disciples of Christ ever were ) and are faithful and diligent in his work , who hath called us , ( as the true Ministers , sent forth by Christ , were in all ages ) and are not idle , but do ( as they did ) by the same spirit , bear witness against all such as live in idleness , and prophanenesse , as the most part of these people do , who accuse us : such , as live in pride and wantonness , who work not at all with their hands , accuse us of idleness , who have a Cloud of witnesses for our practice ; for the holy men of God travelled from place to place , ( as we do ) as they were moved of the Lord , and they were sent ( as we are ) by the Lord ; to testifie against such ungodly practices , as the people of the world live in ; and the same Generation in nature , hated and persecuted them , as do hate and persecute us ; And by the same holy spirit , ye are tryed and found to be the idle persons , who accuse the Servants of the Lord of idlenesse , who are in the work of the Lord , labouring in his Vineyard . You Magistrates , Gentry , Priests and people , who sport your selves in the day-time , and wantonly lives upon the earth , feeding your selves with dainty dishes , Dives-like , wasting the Creatures of God upon your lusts , devouring the Creation , decking your selves in gorgeous attire , that you may be set up and esteemed of , above your poor brethren , & so are found Gentils in nature , exercising Lordship over your brethren persecuting & imprisoning them , who are redeemed out of that nature you live in , who cannot bow and worship you ( as the Heathen do ; ) but know this , you Gentiles , Priests and people , who lives in these practices , ( in envy , pride , idleness , and fulness of bread . ) The day drawes nigh , wherein you an account must give to the Creator , for your envy and cruelty , and for the Creatures which you have wasted , and do waste and devoure , upon your ungodly lusts ; and in the day of account , you will houle and lament , for the misery which will upon you come ; for , to the mighty God of Heaven and Earth , the Creatour of all things , you an account must give , for your pride and idleness , fulness and gluttony , which you have lived in , and do live in , and your reward you must receive , according to your deeds and practices , your outside formal profession will not at all avail you , in the day of the Lord : And you shall then know , who have lived in idleness , whether you who are found in the sins of Sodom alive , or we whom the Lord sends amongst you , to declare against such practices , and to forewarn you of the evil , which is to come upon you , who are found in these practices and doth in life and word bear true testimony against you , who live in , and practise such things daily , as is before mentioned . And many of you are grown so dainty , and so curious in your Dyet , and Apparrel , that you scarce know what to eat , what to drink , or what to put on ; and so causes the whole Creation , to groan under the weight and burthen of your corruptions : who lives in idleness , whose belly is your God , who glory in your shame : And here both Priests and Gentry , who accuses others of idleness , are caught in their own snares : You who accuse us for idleness , who are in the work of the Lord , or you your selves , who are found in the work of the enemy of God , let the honest hearted judge , who live in idleness : you who are enemies to the Servants of God , which labours to have such practices destroyed , as causes the wr●●h of God to remain upon such as act in these things before mentioned . All your coverings which you can make , will not hide you ; for the righteous judge , who will plead the cause of the innocent , will finde you out , in the day of his fierce wrath , which is comming upon you , which you cannot avoid , nor escape : your high thoughts , nor your greatness will not save you though you esteem never so highly of your selves , and scorn and der●de your poor fellow-Creatures , counting them inferiour to you . And many of you think us not worthy to live upon the earth : we seem so vile and base in your scornful eyes . But know this , you proud , high minded , self-conceited ones that God is no respecter of persons , who hath chosen the ( despised ) poor of this world , to be heirs of eternall salvation and hath left you for utter destruction , except you speedily repent ; for wo will come upon all you that are covered , and not with the Spirit of the Lord : therefore now be you warned , and while you have time , prize it ; for the mighty terrible day of the Lord draweth nigh : therefore repent , and forsake the evil of your doings , ( you Sodomites ) before the evil which is determined against you , come upon you : the day of your Calamity hastens , the Lord is righteous in his judgements , who a short work will make upon the earth , and he will reward you according to your works : you who are workers of Iniquity , must depart from his presence , and into utter darkness must be cast ; for the living dreadful God of life and glory , is of purer eyes , then to behold iniquity : therefore cease , cease , from your pride and vain glory , ye high-minded self-conceited ones , and sit down in dust and ashes , lest the door of mercy be for ever shut against you , and you perish eternally . Remember you are warned in your life time , From Edmonds Bury Goal , the 19. day of the 6th moneth , 1655. By a Servant of the Lord in outward bonds for the truthsake , in scorn by the prophane world , called Quaker , whose name in the flesh is , JOHN HARWOOD . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65876e-310 Isa. 42. 6. & 49 ▪ 9 Joh. 8. 58 Jhon 1. Joh. 17. Joh. 5. 22. Joh. 10. ●3 . 1 Joh. 5. 12. & 8. 12. Joh. 1. 9. Joh. 7. 19. Joh. 5 , 47. & 8. 37. Mat. 23. & 10. 8. 9. 1 Cor. 6. 4 , 5 , & 11. 24. Heb. 11. 36 , 37. Joh. 16. 2. Mark . 12. 38. Math. 23. Isa. 6. 11. Mica . 3. 11 ●er . 5. Ezek. 34. 3. Je. 38. 6. Amos. 7. 10. Psalm . 2. 2. Rev. 6. 10. Isa. 1. 13. Ezek. 16. 49. Mat. 23. Isa. 5. 7. Is. ia 1. v2 . Answer . Rom. 13. 3 , 4. Ro● . 12. 2. John . 5. 4. Jam. 2. 9. Psal. 2. 2. 1 Cor. 7. 20. 
A65877	----	The pernicious way of the rigid presbyter and antichristian ministers detected and several weighty matters (in controversie, betwixt Sion and her adversaires, or between the true church and the false) discussed : to inform both magistrates, ministers, and people, Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1662 Approx. 82 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 17 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65877 Wing W1945 ESTC R22439 12301943 ocm 12301943 59161 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65877) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 59161) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:18) The pernicious way of the rigid presbyter and antichristian ministers detected and several weighty matters (in controversie, betwixt Sion and her adversaires, or between the true church and the false) discussed : to inform both magistrates, ministers, and people, Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 32 p. Printed for Robert Wilson, London : 1662. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to George Whitehead. cf. NUC pre-1956. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Caffyn, Matthew, 1628-1714. -- Faith in God's promises. Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-04 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-05 Haley Pierson Sampled and proofread 2005-05 Haley Pierson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Pernicious Way Of the Rigid PRESBYTER AND ANTICHRISTIAN MINISTERS , DETECTED . And several weighty Matters ( in Controversie , betwixt Sion and her Adversaries , or between the true Church and the false ) discussed . To inform both Magistrates , Ministers , and People , against the Spirit of Antichrist and Persecution . Partly upon occasion of a Book , entituled , The QUAKERS LIBEL Answered , by Creswel Whately ; who calls himself Minister of the GOSPEL . To which is annexed , Something concerning the true Christ , and his being in his People ; In answer to Matthew Caffin his great Error and Mistake of the Quakers , in his Book , entituled , Faith in God's Promises , the Saints best Weapon . LONDON , Printed for Robert Wilson , 1662. The Pernicious Way of the rigid PRESBYTER , and Antichristian Ministers , detected . I. Touching Ministers Maintenance by Tithes , and whether they be now of Divine right , or no ? SInce that we have seen several of the National Ministers have let fall their Plea for Tithes , upon a divine account , and only have fled to the National Law , and pleaded a civil Right to them ( they not being able by the Scriptures to maintain their Plea for them , to be now of Divine Right due to the Ministry ) I find one Creswel Whately ( who calls himself a Minister of the Gospel ) who ( to shew his Ignorance and Confusion more than many others ) hath taken it upon him ( in his Book ) to vindicate Tithes upon a Scripture account ( as to be of Divine Right due to them ) And therefore let us a little ( in the first place ) see what he saith for them . The said Creswel Whately saith , Did not God appoint heretofore , that there should be Tithes payed of all they had , and in the Gospel he hath no where repealed that Command ; and that the Apostle upheld the Right of Tithes , though he did forbear to take them ? in pag. 2. & 17. of his Book . To which I answer ; This would both make the Apostle a Transgressor ( if there were such a Command in force which he did not obey , as this implies ) as also it would make him false in what he said in his Epistle to the Hebrews , touching the change of the Priesthood , that took the Tithes , and the change of the Law , and disannulling of the Commandement which the Sons of Levi had for Tithes ; which Priesthood , Law , and Commandement , the Apostle plainly sheweth the change and end of , as is apparent in that of , Heb. 7. And as for God's ordaining , That as they that Ministred at the Altar , were partakers with the Altar ; even so hath ordained , That they that Preach the Gospel , shall live of the Gospel ; to which C. W. adds : Is it not plain , that as the Levites did partake with the Altar , by taking Tithes ; even so must they that Preach the Gospel , live of the Gospel ; namely , by taking Tyths also ? To which I answer ; This is an absurd Argument , and that which the true Ministers would be ashamed of ; for the Priests under the Law , partaking with the Altar , and the Ministers of Christ , their living of the Gospel , are two distinct things , relating to several states and dispensations . ; and living of the Gospel , is not living of Tithes ; though as it was an Ordinance of God under the Law , the Priests should partake ( with the Altar ) of Tithes and Offerings ; so it is an Ordinance of God under the Gospel , that Christian Ministers should live of the Gospel , which is a further state than the other ; and as the Gospel is free , so living of it , and being maintained according to it , is not a living by Tyth●s and forced Maintenance ; neither do●h it follow , that because God hath ordained the Livelyhood , of both the Priests under the Law , and Ministers of the Gospel , that therefore the Ministers of the Gospel must be maintained as the Priests under the Law were , as this pretended Minister of the Gospel hath implied : For if it were so , the Ministers of the Gospel must live by Tithes and Offerings , as the Priests under the Law did , ( Num. 18.9 , 10 , 24 , 26. ) which no true Minister will own . And now to prove the Ministers taking Tithe-Corn , Hay , Calves , Foals , Wool , Lambs , Geese , Hens , Pigs , &c. C. W. instanceth , Luk. 11.42 . Of the Pharisees ( to whom woe belonged ) Tything of Mint , Annis , and Cummin , &c. To which I say , this doth not at all make for their taking Tithe now , as this man vainly imagines ; for it was in the time of the Law , before either it , or the Priesthood & shadows under it , were fulfilled or ended by Christ ; seeing it was before he was Crucified , that he spoke these words , Luk. 11.42 . & Mat. 23.23 . So that in arguing for Tithes from that of Luk. 11.42 . the Priests come very poorly and feebly off ; as C. W. hath done , in his saying , That all Tythes ought now to be payed , as well as heretofore , if we will follow the Rule of Jesus Christ under the Gospel , &c. This then would make the Apostle Paul , and the rest of Christs Ministers Transgressors against Christ , for they did not take Tythes , nor forced Maintenance ; and this Priest VVhately hath confessed , That Paul did forbear to take Tythes , pag. 17. and so his words do tend to make Paul a Trangressor and a Hypocrite , if he owned one thing in words , and another thing in practice ; and certainly , had the Apostle been of this Priests opinion , that it was a Rule of Christ to take Tithes , he would not have transgressed the Rule ; for there were several of the Churches ( to whom he Ministred ) that had been able to have payed him them , had they been due under the Gospel . And to that of , Heb. 7.12 . C. VV. answereth thus , p. 16. It is here said , there must of necessity be a change of the Law ; it is not said , there must of necessity be a change of Tithes , &c. See what a false Gloss he would put upon the Scripture ; he would maintain Tithes as due by that Command , by which they were upheld in the Law , and yet the Law is changed which gave them . What confusion is this ? If the Law for Tithes be changed , where is the Command of it in force to uphold them now ? But the Apostle saith , the Commandement is disannulled , and the Law is changed ; and Christ is not a Priest after the Law of a carnal Commandement , but after the Power of an endless Life , Heb. 7.16 . But saith C. VV. The Law , which must of necessity be changed , is the Ceremonial , used under the Levitical Priesthood , where there were many Types and Shadows of Christ , &c. all which , and many other things that were Types of Christ , are indeed abolished under the Gospel ; as Offerings , and many other things , &c. but there is no resemblance between Tythes and the Lord Christ ; Tythes were no Type of Christ at all , but a maintenance for the Ministers of Christ under the Law ; and so they ought to be a Maintenance for the Ministers of Christ under the Gospel , &c. I answer ; If Offerings , that were under the Law , were Types and Shadows of Christ , then were Tithes ; for it was commanded , that the tenth of the Tithes should be offered an Heave-offering unto the Lord , Num. 18.26 . and the Tithes were given to the Priests for their Service , at the Tabernacle , Ver. 21. which Service , Christ the One Offering , hath ended : And out of the Tithes , the Fatherless , Widows , and Strangers , were to be relieved and satisfied , Deut. 14. and they were counted Robbers of God ( in the time of the Law ) who with-held their Tithes from the Store-house , Mal. 3. where the Widows , Fatherless , and Strangers , were to be relieved ( and not to lye begging in the Streets , as they do here in this City , and other places of the Nation ) but now Christ , who is the end of the Law for Righteousness , and of that Priesthood that took the Tythes ; he is the living Bread of Life which is known in the Fathers House , and the Fruit of the Vine is known in him , and received in his Kingdom , by which they that come into his Light to believe and walk in it , shall be fed and satisfied , more than by the Tithe-Corn , Wine , Oyle , and Firstlings of the Flocks , which were but Types and Shadows of this living Bread which is in the House of the Lord ; by which , they that have been as Widows , without Christ the Husband , and as Fatherless and Strangers , may come to be fed , relieved , and satisfied , as they come into the House of God. And to tell of Tythes being a Maintenance for the Ministers of Christ under the Law , and for the Ministers of Christ under the Gospel . These are unsound expressions ; for the Ministers of Christ under the Gospel , are come to a further state than the Priests under the Law , who were Ministers of the Law , and not called ( in Scripture ) Ministers of Christ ; for Christs Ministers are come to the end of the Law , and of the Types and Shadows under it . And as to C. W. his saying , in pag : 17. That the Levitical Priesthood , is changed into the Priesthood which is after the order of Melchizedech , which is never to be changed ; and that Melchizedech took Tythes , who was the Type of Christ : From whence he argues , That therefore Tythes ought to be payed , as well now as heretofore , &c. I answer ; 1. The Scripture doth not say , that the Levitical Priesthood is changed into the Priesthood of Christ , which is after the order of Melchizedech , as in effect , this Priest VVhately hath affirmed ; for Christ came of another Tribe than that of Levi ; for he came out of the Tribe of Judah , of which Moses spake nothing concerning Priesthood , Heb. 7.14 . 2. He granting that Melchizedech was a Type of Christ , then Christ is the Substance and end of that Type ; and must the Type then be Preached up ? And no where do we read , that Christ's Ministers did take Tythes , or plead for them , upon any such account ( or otherwise . ) 3. Melchizedech , his receiving the tenth of the Spoyle , when Abraham did freely give it him ; this is no warrant or proof for the Priests receiving the tenths of mens Estates , Increase , and Labours , whereby they oppress many poor labouring men . 4. And Mechizedech receiving once the tenth of the Spoyle from Abraham , when he returned from the slaughter of the Kings , is no warrant or example , for the Priests receiving Tythes every Year ( viz. Tithe-Corn , Hay , Calves , Foals , Wool , Lambs , Geese , Hens , Eggs , Pigs , Bees , Apples , Plumbs , &c. ) nor for their suing men at Law for Tithes , nor for their compelling them from poor Husband-men ; for it was a free gift from Abraham , that he gave to Melchizedech , when Melchizedech met him with Bread and Wine , Gen. 14. by which he relieved his men ; and it was the tenth of the Spoyle , and not any thing forced from him by a Law , nor a robbing the Poor . So that if you Priests do take Melchizedech for your example , why do you not follow him ? and here it is evident , that you have manifested your selves to be Preachers up of Types and Shadows for your own ends and Bellies , and so no true Ministers of Christ the Substance , who is the end of them . And Christ being a Priest after the Order of Melchizedech , in that he was King of Righteousness , and of Peace , and Priest of the most High God ( and upon that account , like unto the Son of God ) this is no Rule for Christ's Ministers , either receiving Tythes of Spoyles taken in War , or Tithes of mens Estates . So that you , who have upon this account pleaded for Tithes , have shewed your selves to be in a Popish Practice and Institution , which by the Papists was set up , since the dayes of the Apostles , and never commanded nor practiced by the Apostles . And from that of , 2 Cor. 11.8 . C. VV. accuseth the Apostle with being chargeable , and that he did make the Gospel chargeable , pag. 6. & 17. wherein he hath wronged the Apostle ; for though , as by way of reproof to the Corinthians , he saith , He took wages of other Churches , to do them Service , ( which Churches were not of the World , such as the Hirelings of this Age are chargeable to ) yet the Apostle saith , VVhat is my reward then ? verily , that when I Preach the Gospel , I may make the Gospel of Christ without charge , that I abuse not my Power in the Gospel , 1 Cor. 9.18 . 2 Cor. 11.9 . and so he kept the Gospel without charge , contrary to this Priests accusation against him . And as for C. VVhately his accusing us , with refusing to pay Tythes , as doing it rather for ( or out of ) covetousness , than from a rectified conscience , &c. To which I need say little , but the sad sufferings which we have sustained from the Priests ( many of us ) by long Imprisonments in nasty holes ( some till they have dyed in Prisons ) and the great Havock and spoyle they have made of many mens Goods ( because they could not for Conscience sake pay Tithes ) which is not unknown to the Nation . These sad sufferings may all witness against this accusation , to be false , and against him as a slanderer , that so accuseth us for refusing to pay Tithes out of covetousness . II. Touching a settled Ministry . And whereas C. VV. pleads for a settled Ministry ; and that when the Gospel was planted , Elders in the Churches , and in every City , were chosen , Act. 14.23 . Tit. 1.5 . Rev. 1. & 2. Chap. 1 Pet. 5.1 . To This I answer : 1. If the Ministers of England were Planters of the Gospel , as the Apostles and true Ministers were , they would have the same Power to chuse and appoint Elders , that would be able to take the care and over-sight over the Flock of God ; and then they would not settle themselves in Parishes & great Livings as they do ; who are not willing to suffer any to preach there , but themselves , & such as are brought up at Colledges ; for the Elders in the true Church , were such as were to feed the Flock of God , not by constraint , but willingly , not for filthy lucre , but of a ready mind ; and such gifted and qualified men , did the Apostles approve of for that end , 1 Pet. 5.2 , 3. 1 Tim. 5.17 . Tit. 1.5 , 6 , 7. Act. 14.23.2 . If the Ministers of England had been true Ministers or Elders , and had so planted the Gospel in England as they pretend , they would not remain as Masters and Lords over the People in this Nation , nor make a Trade of Preaching , as they have done these many years , but would go into other Nations and parts of the world , and spread the Gospel freely ; but instead thereof , they are settled , and do feed upon the fat , and live lazily in this Nation , like droan Bees , that devour the fruits of others labours : And they that go up and down and Preach the Gospel freely , are envied and persecucuted by these covetous lazy Teachers , as hath been apparent these several years in this Nation . And by the way I observe , that C. W. shews but a very slender Reason , for his counting the Quakers Paper ( which is printed in his Book ) a Libel , because it hath no particular names subscribed to it ; seeing that the Paper , he knew , was owned by them called Quakers , who sent it to him ; as also , it being generally owned by us , there was the less need of subscribing a particular name to it ; and the truth thereof being so apparent against the Priests , that they that see how their Covetous Practices do prove it , may be satisfied of the truth of it . And C. W. hath shewed himself so Ignorant of the Scriptures , that he hath accused the said Paper with Railing , Revileing Language and Tearms , and such speech as is found in Hell , and hellish mouths ; when as the Language and Tearms , he hath so accused , is the very Language , and Tearms of Scripture : as you may see , in Isa. 56.11 . Jer. 5.31 . chap. 6.13 . & 4.22 . Ezek. 34.3 . Mica . 3.11 . Mat. 23.19.24.33 . John 10.12 , 13. & 8.44 . 2 Tim. 3.13 . Titus 1.10 . 1 John 2.18 . 2 John 7. 2 Pet. 2.13 . Jude 11. Rev 22.15 . chap. 18.23 . III. The Priests Envy , Hypocrisie , and falshood in several things , detected . And who but an envious malicious man , would have sent forth such accusations and reproaches against us , whereby to incense the Magistrates to persecute us , as this Creswell Whately hath done ? Especially in these times , wherein our suffering is so great already , as is not unknown to the Nation ; and still for our Consciences , and Religion , we are lyable to have our sufferings added unto ; and now for him or any of the Priests to seek to add to our affliction , by accusing us to the Magistrates , is both inhumane and unchristian like , and not at all as they would be dealt by . And since the Presbyterians themselves are so lyable to suffer , if they constantly adhere to what they have professed , this man ( if he had been in Moderation , and Reasonableness ) might have considered our Case by his own ; but many of the Presbyterian Priests can pretty much save themselves from Sufferings and Persecution , whilst they can daub with every outward Power and cleave to the Magistrates by flatteries ; and in Hypocricsie and Dissimulation can conform to the Religion that the Rulers are of or will Impose whatever it be , for their own Ends , to save their Livings or fat Benefices : So , that had C. W. well considered the way and Practices of his own generation of hireling Teachers , he would not have accused us with first being Anabaptists , and then Ranters , and now Quakers , and next of all we know not what , pag. 4. when he should rather have said ( of many of those Ministers that are of his own affinity ) we must one while be Episcopal men for the Common Prayer Book , another while we must be Presbyterians , and plead for Ordination by the Presbytery , and for the Directory , and therein deny the Common Prayer , and tell the People that the Lyturgy must be laid aside , as that which hath given occasion to many Ministers to be idle and slothful , and too much negligent in putting forth themselves in the gift of Prayer , and Studying to Preach the Word ; and now after all this we must plead for Ordination from the Bishops , and turn again to the Lyturgy or Common Prayer , and thereby openly make our selves Transgressors by building up that again which we have destroyed , Gal. 2.18 . and what Religion and Worship we shall be of , and have next , we know not ; but rather then we will lose our great Places , Livings , and Tythes , we may ( in all likelihood ) turn to the Masse ( if the Magistrate will ) for we have hitherto been sound changeable both in Practices and Doctrine for our own ends . And though we have often in our Pulpits Prayed for Oliver Cromwel , and his Parliaments , and called him the Light of our Eyes , and the breath of our Nostrils ; and kept many Fasts , and dayes both of Humiliation , and Thanksgiving for him ; and have often given thanks in Publick for the Victories that have been given him over his Enemies , who were for a Kingly Government ; as also we much Rejoyced when his Son Richard Cromwel was Proclaimed Protector , and kept Prayer-dayes for him , and prophesied that he should be a second Solomon , and of his Establishment and tranquility in the Nation ; and what a blessing he should be to it ( as many that have heard us in our Pulpits can bear us witness ) and all this was that these men in Authority should gratifie us , in setting great Livings and Tythes upon us ; and for that end , many of us have often humbly Petitioned these Protectors ; but now after all this to gloss and colour over all these former proceedings of ours , ( now these former Powers being overturned , and King Charles the Second , being in Authority in the Nation ) wee 'l Preach and Pray for him , and shew our selves zealous for him , and bid People , fear God , Honour the King , and meddle not with those that are given to change ; as also wee 'l Preach against the Independants , Anabaptists , and Quakers , and call them Fannaticks , ( but especially against the Quakers , for they gaul us most of all ) and thereby seek to gratifie these Magistrates as we have done the former ( as well as we can ) that they may maintain us , ( and if any of us be like to lose our Livings , let us Petition , and get a License under the broad Seal ) and when we have obtained the Magistrates favour , by Preaching and Praying for them , and flattering them , then will we plead for Tythes and setlted Maintenance , and seek to cause the Magistrates to persecute all that will not hear nor maintain us ; and when we cannot ( by Argument from Scripture ) maintain Tythes to be of Divine right to us , neither from Melchizedochs receiving the Tyth of the spoil ( which Abraham gave him freely when he returned from the slaughter of the Kings ) not yet from the Priests of Levy's example , who had a command to take Tyth of their Brethren , which were both for their service at the Tabernacle ( which now is ended by Christ ) as also for the relieving the Fatherless , Widowes and Strangers , a Tenth of which Tyth was offered for an Heave-offering unto the Lord ; now when we cannot maintain Tythes to be Jure Divino from these examples , then will we flie to the Law ( that had its rise from the Pope ) for Tythes , and wee 'l tell our hearers , that the Magistrate gives us them , and wee 'l threaten to trouble and Sue them , if they will not pay us , and thereby seek to terrifie and affright People , that they may be forced to pay us ; and so we will drive on our Trade by all the Policy and force we can : and seek by all means to have the Quakers suppressed , either by Persecution , Imprisonings , or taking away their Goods for Tythes , in many places , to the value of five or ten times more then the Tythes come to : and now if these things will not do to overcome these Quakers , ( as we see , notwithstanding all their sufferings , they grow and encrease upon us ) then will we make more complaints against them , and tell the Magistrates they are a dangerous People , they will overthrow both Ministers and Magistrates , and will not spare the Supream Magistrate himself , if they be suffered to go on ; therefore now let them be Banished , for we cannot live in quiet , nor quietly drive on our Trade for them , but they will need be Checking and Reproving us for our taking Tythes , and Preaching for gain , and our seeking to compell men to our way and Worship , and to Impose Religion upon men contrary to their Faith and Conscience . All these things with many other deceits , are these Treacherous Clergy-men , and Persecuting Priests guilty of in themselves , as by their Fruits and Doctrines is apparent ; So that the Lord hath made them contemptible and base before all People , Mal. 2.9 . And whereas in pag. 11. C. W. Accuseth us of Insolencies and Lybels , which ( he saith ) so far as they reflect upon the Publick , and do tend to the disturbance and subversion of the Nation , and Common-wealth , so far the Magistrate is bound not to suffer such Insolencies to go unpunished , &c. For when the Child shall behave himself proudly against the Antient , and the Base against the Honourable , Isa. 3.5 . Then the Magistrate must remember that he ought to punish evil doers ; and if he do not punish such disorders , but is sparing in this kinde , because of a Temporizing Spirit , and out of base fear ; or because of any selfish Carnal Policy , God will assuredly punish him for his Sin of Negligence . Answ. 1. As for Lybels or Insolencies tending to the subversion of the Nation , which this Priest would have the Magistrate to punish us for , hereof he hath accused us falsly , and shewed a spirit of Envy and Persecution against us ; for which I know no ground he hath against us , either to accuse us in this manner , or to seek to Instigate the Magistrate against us , but onely because the Lord our God hath raised us up in Righteousness to bear witness against the deceits , and unrighteous Practices , Persecution and Oppression , ( that such Teachers as are of his Affinity are guilty of ) and their making a Trade , and a Gain of their Preaching , which we have in the Spirit of Truth , born witness against both in our words , Writings , and Books , which ( scornfully and falsly ) this Priest calls Lybels , though wha we speak and write , be agreeable to the Scriptures of Truth ; and neither this said Priest , nor any of his Brethren ( the Priests ) have ever yet cleared themselves of those things which we have laid to their charge in our Books . 2. What we speak and write in Truth and Righteousness against the Priests oppression , covetousness , and Preaching for forced Maintenance , doth not at all tend to subvert the Nation , as he would possess the Magistrate ; but to establish the Nation in Peace , and free it from much bondage , oppression , persecution , and suffering , which the covetous hireling Priests have brought upon it ; which if it were free from those things , and people left free to the Lord , to lead and order them by his Spirit , in matters pertaining to Religion and Conscience , and only the Magistrates to punish evil doers , and to be a praise to them that do well , and not to lend their ears to the Priests , to be their drudges and executioners , in persecuting and imprisoning conscientious men , because they cannot maintain them in their oppression : I say , then the Nation would be more at peace , and all that are conscientious and moderate in it , more satisfied . And the Priests might be tryed , if they would Preach freely , and live of the Gospel , as the true Ministers did ; for if God hath ordained , that they that Preach the Gospel , shall live of it ; he is able to fulfil his own Ordinance , without their forcing Maintenance by a Law from people , or suing them at Law for Tythes ; in which thing the Priests have manifested themselves to be both out of the Ordinance of God , and example of all his Ministers . 3. By their so much seeking to incense the Magistrate to punish and persecute us , for bearing witness against their covetous practices , and false principles , it appears they are afraid their Trade should fail them , and go down ; as it hath already failed many of them , whilst they are putting one another out of their Livings and places ( where they have upheld their unrighteous Trade for their Bellies ) as those that bite and devour one another . 4. And as to that of , Isa. 3.5 . of the Child's behaving himself proudly against the Antient ; this was in Israel , when they oppressed one another ; which pride and oppression we are not guilty of , but the proud and covetous Clergy . But whereas this C.W. accuseth us , as behaving our selves proudly against the honourable ; one seeming reason for it ( a little before ) is , pag. 10. he saith , That we do continually all along use those disdainful tearms of Thee and Thou , and the like scornful expressions ; and saith , That this is directly contrary to the Rule of the Gospel , &c. and it is also contrary to the example of the Apostle Paul , when he was reproached by Festus , &c. the Apostle doth not say , Thee and Thou , but most noble Festus , &c. Act. 26.24 . Answer ; This accusation reflects upon all the Holy men of God , spoken of in Scripture , ( who used the words Thee and Thou to a single person , and You and Ye onely as pertaining to a number , or to more than one ) as if they all used disdainful and scornful expressions , and as if they therein directly transgressed the Rule of the Gospel ; this is but a bad and unequal judgement , and apparently false ; for Paul himself used Thou to Festus ; and several times both Thee and Thou ( in signification ) to King Agrippa , who was in greater Authority than Festus , Act. 25.10 . & Chap. 26.2 , 3 , 27 , 29. and multitudes of examples more might be instanced for this : As also , this man can use Thee and Thou to God in his Prayers ; and he and his Brethren have learned that plain language in their Grammer , which distinguisheth between the singular and plural number , though now he hath accused us , with using disdainful tearms ; for using that plainness of speech which he hath formerly learned , in which thing , the very Hea●hen may judge the pride of these men , who cannot bear the tearms of Thee and Thou to a single person . C. W. little cause hast thou to boast ( as in pag. 16. ) that thou canst read where we canno● spell , who so ignorantly hast judged the plain Grammatical language so frequently used in Scripture . And further , in pag. 11. C. Whately saith , If the Quakers may go away with these affronts , which they offer unto all , making no difference ; within a while they will not spare the Supream Magistrate , and so at last , all will turn into confusion and disturbance , which the Lord in mercy prevent : for England hath felt the misery of War already . To this I answer ; Herein hath this man discovered himself to be acted both by a false and persecuting spirit , whereby he hath wickedly gone about to stir up the Magistrates to persecute us , though without any just cause against us , and herein hath he and the Priests of this Nation often manifested themselves to be in the way of deceivers , false Prophets , persecuting Jews , and to have drunk of the Cup of the great Whore , who hath persecuted and killed the Saints , Rev. 17. & 18. For , 1. We ( as alwayes we have done ) do own the Authority and Power of the Magistrate , as ordained of God , to be a terror to evil doers , and a praise to them that do well ; and for that end , have from time to time , since we were a People , warned , exhorted , and admonished the Magistrates that have been in power , to Truth , Equity and Righteousness ; and as in respect to the place and Authority of the Magistrates , have alwayes put a difference between them and the subjects that are under them in the Nation , though he Glory , Honour , and vain Complements and Customs of the world we are redeemed out of , and may not be so conformed thereto , Rom. 12.2 . 1 Cor. 7.31 . 1 Joh. 2.15 . and the Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ we hold without respect of persons , according to Christ and the Apostles Doctrin , Joh. 5.44 . Jam. 2. 2. And as for his saying , That within a while we will not spare the Supream Magistrate ; To this I need say little , in vindication of our Innocency , our Life and Conversation having these several years given so evident a Testimony against this Accusation ; and our Innocency ( through many sufferings , tryals , and tribulations for Conscience sake , without doing any evil , violence , or affronting any mans person ) is manifest to the Nation wherein we live , as those that have not sought a worldly Kingdom , or earthly preferment ; so that this C. W. may be ashamed of his Prophesie against us , in his saying , That within a while we will not spare the Supream Magistrate ; for as appears , it is above six years since he first wrote this against us , by the date of this his writing against us , being dated , August . 18. 1655. though the printing of it bears date , 1662. and all this time , since we were a People , our Life hath preached our Innocency , through many persecutions , and cruel sufferings and imprisonments , which the Priests of the Nation have chiefly been the instrumental cause of , by their instigating the Magistrates and Powers of the earth for their own ends against us . And , 3. This our Accuser , hath not any just cause , or real occasion , as from us , so implicitly to accuse us , either of being the stirrers up to War , or with affronting the Supream Magistrate in that kind , as he and many others of his Brethren have unrighteously accused us , and prophesied against us ; for as hitherto our Innocency and Integrity towards God and men , hath evidently testified against them and their false aspersions cast upon us ; so we doubt not , but also henceforth , through the strength of our God , we shall ( as we have hitherto done ) prove them to be false Prophets , that have prophesied against us , from their own evil hearts and prejudiced spirits , and not from the Spirit of the Lord ; and so they have falsly measured us by their Bushel , and accused us with that , whereof themselves are guilty , who have been as the Trumpets to War , and instigaters to bloodshed , when they have been afraid their Trade would fail , and that their designs would not be mannaged , by such as have been in Power ; so that then their exclamation hath been , Curse ye Meroz that will not come and fight against the mighty ; and so instead of making manifest the true Riligion and Worship , through freely preaching the Gospel , in holding forth the love of Truth , or freely admitting of fair and equal disputations with them who are most concerned in the differences ( which is the most equal and reasonable way to manifest things in that case ) instead thereof , they have gone about to establish their Religion and Worship by the outward sword , force , and imposition ; from whence hath sprung that saying amongst the profane , Fight lads for the Gospel ; but we know , that the hand and Power that establisheth the true Religion , is not carnal , nor visible , but spiritual ; and therefore in the patience of the Lamb of God we have been , and are given up patiently to suffer , and to wait upon the Lord , and to see him carry on his work , by his own Arm and Power , and not to follow the way of false Teachers , who have sought to establish themselves by the Arm of flesh , and with force and cruelty have ruled over the People , as the false Shepherds of Israel did , who fed themselves , and not the Flock , Ezek. 34.2 , 3 , 4. And whereas in pag. 14. & 15. C. W. makes much ado against John Cam , for using the language of Christ , against the Pharisees , in calling them , Hypocrites , Serpents , &c. and saith , That he denies it to be lawful for him to speak all that Christ spake ; for Christ said , Son be of good cheer , thy sins are forgiven thee , &c. Can John Cam ever prove himself to be as justifiable as the Lord Christ ? And he saith , How come you to know , who is a Serpent , and who is a Viper ? Let me tell you , that you your selves are the Children of mortal , sinful men ; &c. Answer , As for wh●● John Cam hath said against the Priests , as comparing them with th● Pharisees , the truth thereof is evident , as their conversation and practices manifest , both in their oppressing the People , and several other things , Mat. 23. And neither John Cam , or any of us , ever did , or do , take upon our selves , either to reprove or judge others , or to know the state of others without Christ ( as of our selves , distinct from Christ , as C. W. hath implied ) but by the Spirit of Christ are we able to discern the Tree by its fruits ; and between the nature of a Serpent , and the nature of a Lamb ; and between a Wolf and a Sheep , & who are in the nature of each ; for that Spirit searcheth all things , and the spiritual man judgeth all things , 1 Cor. 2.15 . and they who are in the Spirit are spiritual ; and he is a blind man , that is not able to judge between a Serpent and a Lamb , or a Dog and a Sheep , or that cannot discern between such as are Serpents , and such as are Lambs ; for we know the Promise of God fulfilled , which saith , Ye shall discern between him that serveth God , and him that serveth him not , and between the Righteous and the Wicked , Mal. 3.10 . and we neither judge of things before the time , nor yet do we judge as these that have a beam in their own eye , who are forbidden to judge ; but in the Spirit , which hath opened and cleared our eyes , do we speak the truth , and appeal to the witness of God in every mans Conscience . Again , C. VV. hath condemned himself in the thing he allows , for he forbids others to judge , and yet he himself hath oftentimes judged us , as for being in error , setting up a false Light , for keeping pride still in our hearts ; for refusing to pay Tythes , from or out of covetousness ; for lightly esteeming the Rock of our Salvation ; for not following the Light which is in the Word ; for insolencies , disorders , and affronts ; for being tossed to and fro with every wind of Doctrin ; for being railers and revilers ; for consulting with flesh and carnal wisdom ; for having a mistery of iniquity in the midst of us ; for condemning all the settled Ministers of the Gospel , &c. These aspersions and accusations against us , which are dispersed through his Book , with many more of the like nature , we do absolutely deny , as being slanders that are unjustly cast upon us by him , who hath taken upon him in hypocrisie , to forbid others to judge ; as also his saying , in pag. 7. That all sober-minded and serious Christians , who are settled in the Truth , do judge , that the inventers and fomenters of our Way , are the Jesuits and the Papists , Satans subtile and busie Factors , purposely to disturb the Truth amongst us in England , &c. Answer , They who do so judge concerning us and our Way , are neither settled nor established in the Truth of Christ ; for as for our Way , it is the same that the holy men of God , and true Christians of old owned , and were in ; and it is Christ , who is the Way , the Truth , and the Life , whom we own ; which was never invented nor fomented , by either Popish Jesuits , Papists , or Satans Factors : And a clearer Testimony have we given against Popery , than any of you , who are in the Popish practice , of taking Tythes and Sprinkling Infants , and in many other things and principles , both as to your education at Colledges , that were built by the Papists , and in your Preaching in their Mass-houses , which you falsly call Churches , and several other things wherein you agree with the Papist , and are out of the Scripture example , and Saints practices ; and then to save your selves , would be accusing us of Popery . And thou C. W. Hast accused us in pag. 7. For being very plain in our Garments and Apparel , but alas ( sayest thou ) doth the Power of Humility consist onely in these External things ? why the Papists themselves in this External Humility do very far excell us , for they Cloath themselves with Sack-cloth , go bare footed , &c. yet saist thou , Do I not like of their Religion , neither can I approve of yours because it is like theirs . Answer , This is but a silly Argument , either from thence to deem us Papists or to disapprove of our Religion , for , going plain in apparel is both according to the example of the Saints , and the Apostles Doctrine , who gave Testimony against both , vanity in Apparel , Pride of life , and the Lust of the Eye , which was after such things , 1 Tim. 2. 1 John 2.16 . and had we not better be in plainness of Apparel , then in Cuffs , Ribbonds , and such like Fooleries as many of the Clergy-men wear ? And shall we be accounted Papists because we are in the Apostles Doctrine , and shew an Example of Moderation and Sobriety to others ? and therefore must our Religion be disapproved of ? this is as bad an Argument as if C. W. had judged all to be Papists that Profess the Name of Christ , and own the Saints Practices , because the Papists do Profess his Name , and in some things do Immitate the Saints ; or must we disown the Truth in any thing , because evil men do Profess it , and make a shew of it ? If C. W. have learned no better Logick then this , he had better never have gone to the Vniversity to have learned his Trade , and that Cost that was bestowed upon him for Learning , was very ill bestowed ; but herein the World may see his weakness , as they may see his falshood , pag. 6. in his saying these words to Robert Howton , viz. That which we demand from you is none of yours , but ours , for our Tythes were never purchased by your self , or by your fathers before you , &c. which how false that is , let all both Farmers and Free-holders in this Nation witness , who when they Buy a Stock of Cattle , all at their own charge , for the Managing and tilling their Lands and Tenements , and when they Buy the Corn they sow their ground withall , and when men have purchased Lands by their own proper Cost and Charge , and every part and parcel thereof for their own singular use , as the Evidences are , and are at so much Cost and Charges with Managing of them , then for the Priests to claim the Tyth of Cattle , Goods , Corn , Hay , &c. to claim it as their own , and say it s none of theirs who purchased both the Lands Goods , and bought the Corn by which it was sown , let any indifferent Persons judge of their falshood , and unrighteousness in this thing . IV. Of the Light within both Natural and Spiritual Men. And as concerning the Light that is within : C. Whately accuseth us , With shamefully undervaluing the Holy Scriptures , and setting up a false Light that is within us , above the true Light that is in the Scripture ; for it is our constant language , look to the Light that is within you , not knowing that we are by nature wretched , miserable , poor , blind , and naked ; and therefore it is , that the Lord hath given us his holy Word , which we call the Scriptures , to be a Lanthorn to our feet , and a Light to our paths : What you call Light , we may well call Darkness , p. 6. As also he saith , pag. 9. You do lightly esteem the Rock of your Salvation , the Truth of Christ , &c. all this proceeds from hence ; because you follow that Light which is in you , and not that Light which is in the Word and Spirit , &c. Answer ; In these things are we very grosly wronged , and the Truth much abused , by this our Accuser . For , 1. We neither undervalue the Holy Scriptures ; neither do we lightly esteem the Rock of our Salvation , either in Preaching the Light within ( or any other principle held by us ) but therein , do both own the Rock of Salvation , and the Scripture ; for it is the Light of Christ , the Rock of Salvation ( and no false Light ) that we Preach and own , which is the true Light , that enlightens every man that cometh into the World , Joh. 1.9 . And he is come a Light into the World , that whosoever believeth in him , might not perish , but have everlasting Life , Joh. 8.12 . & 12.46 . 2. In his counting the Light within , which we Preach , a false Light , a deceitful Light , and Darkness , as in pag. 6. & 7. & 9. he hath blasphemed against the Light of Christ , and hath put Light for Darkness , and Darkness for Light , and turned the Truth into falshood , or a Lye , and so brought the woe upon himself , Isa. 5.20 . 3. The Light within , which we Preach , is the Light of the Word , and Spirit of God , and not divided from the Word , as our Accuser hath implied against us : for the Word of God is known in the heart of every one that believeth , Rom. 10.8 . and this was in David and the true Prophets hearts , before they gave forth the Words or Scriptures from it ; so that , he that makes no distinction between the Scriptures , which are the Writings , and the Word , or Light within , from whence they proceeded , is very ignorant . 4. It is the Light of Christ within , that convinceth of ( and testifieth against ) sin and unrighteousness ; and where it 's not rejected , but obeyed , it leads man out of sin , and so out of the natural , wretched and blind state , to God , who is the Fountain of Grace and Life , and the Father of Lights ; none of whose Lights do we ever read of in Scripture , to be either false , deceitful , or in themselves darkness . And 5. Neither was it the Light that was in Paul before his Conversion , that led him to make havock of the Church of Christ , or to be exceedingly mad against the Saints , and persecute them , as falsly C. VV. hath implied in his Queries , pag. 9. nor was it the Light that was within the Jews , or Persecutors , that deluded them so , as to think they did God good service in killing the Saints ; ( as also this man hath implied ) but the spirit of error and darkness in them ; for Christ told , even them ( viz. the Pharisees ) that were in the persecuting nature , That the Kingdom of God was within them , Luk. 17.20 , 21. the Light of which , is neither false , nor deceitful , nor doth it ever lead into any deceit or evil . And further , how apparent is C. VV. his ignorance , concerning the Light within , who puts no difference between Light and Darkness , in his asking if this Light that is in man , did not cause Jesurun to sacrifice unto Devils ? Deut. 32.17 . Again , C. VV. saith , I would also willingly know , whether the Light of the new Creature , that is in the Saints themselves , be a sufficient Rule to walk by ? for if so , then the Saints may cast away the Scriptures , and walk by their own Light , &c. Then also , the Saints have such a Light in them , that they cannot erre ; and it is to be understood , that you your selves must be the Saints , and so you being the only Saints upon the earth , we must follow you in all things , as the Papists do the Pope ; and what a compendious way will this be , to bring in Popery and blind obedience , in the highest degree that evere was ? &c. Answer ; Thus hath this ignorant man begun in darkness , and ended in scorn and falshood . For , 1. The Light of Christ and his Spirit , that is in the new Creature and Sain●s , is a sufficient Rule to walk by , as the Spirit of Truth doth lead into all Truth ; and the Anointing or Light , that was in the Saints , taught them of all things that was Truth , and no Lye , 1 Joh. 2.27 . 2 Cor. 13.5 . and so Christ is in you , except you be Reprobates , and in him is the Saints sufficiency ; and yet it doth not follow , that therefore the Scriptures of Truth must be cast away , no more than John's Epistle was to be cast away by them ( to whom he wrote ) that had the Anointing in them , to teach them of all things ( and so to understand the Scriptures ) that they needed no man to teach them , but as it taught them ; and this keeps out of error , where it 's minded and obeyed . 2. And to own and witness to this Light , Spirit , or Anointing within , as a sufficient Rule ( as all the Saints have done ) is no way to bring in Popery , nor blind obedience , as unjustly is implied against us upon this account ; for that Accusation reflects upon the former Saints , as well as us . And I am so charitable , as not to believe , that none have a sufficient Rule to walk by , or Light to save them , but they who have the letter of the Scripture without ; for the general Love and Goodness of God to mankind , cannot be so limited to a visible thing , nor bound up in that narrowness ; as our Accuser seems to imply . Again , C. VV. objects ( in his Postscript ) That they say , that all men have the Light of Reason and natural Conscience , which is enough to make them without excuse in the day of Judgement ; but as for the Light of Grace , which alone can make us wise to Salvation ; this is not given unto all men ; and to prove it , cites , Deut. 29.4 . Answ. As for Light of Reason and natural Conscience , being enough to make men without excuse , we do not at all read of in Scripture ; for that which left men without excuse was spiritual , and that which might be known of God , that was manifest in them , Rom. 1.19 . and that Light which leaves without excuse is saving , and sufficient to lead out of sin , or otherwise it could not leave any without excuse , for insufficiency in the Gift given to Man ( if it were so ) would be a ground of excuse . And as for those Israelites spoken to , in Deut. 29. their not having an heart to perceive , nor eyes to see , nor ears to hear , unto that day , was because of their Rebellion and Disobedience ; which occasioned hardness of heart , blindness , and want of understanding ; for there was no fault in God towards them ; he gave his good Spirit unto them , and yet they rebelled against him , and would not hearken to his Voice , Neb. 9. Psa. 81.11 . and so all that rebel against the Light , know not the wayes of it , for they abide not in the paths of it , Job 24.13 . V. Of Perfection . And now , as it hath been much of these Priests work , to talk against the sufficiency of the Light of Christ in men ; so also have they much spread abroad their sinful Doctrins , for the continuance of sin and imperfection in all men , while upon earth ; for which iniquity C. VV. hath also appeared , who ( in his Postscript ) saith , He shall only acquaint the Reader with one particular ( of the Quakers ) which discovereth the great Pride of their hearts , viz. that they say of themselves , that they have a Righteousness within them , whereby they are made perfect , and without sin : This is R. Fransworth's Assertion ; he saith , and then to prove this to be contrary to the Truth , he brings these Scriptures , Eccl. 7.20 . Job 9.20 . Jam. 3.2 . Rom. 3.10 , 23.1 Joh. 1.8 , 10. Gal. 5.17 . Rom. 7. But ( saith he ) they say still , they are without sin , because they have the Spirit of Christ in their hearts , and therefore they are without sin . To which I answer ; As for what he saith the Quak●rs say of themselves , and that they say still , they are without sin ; this is a falshood , and herein hath he wronged them and their words ; for they do not go about to set forth themselves in any justification of themselves , and of their own states , as some mistake them , and as this man implies against them ; but to vindicate the Truth in general , and to shew forth Christ , and his Work and Righteousness , which is to be known within ; For know you not , that Jesus Christ is in you , except you be Reprobates ? 2 Cor. 13.5 . and the end for which Christ is made manifest , is to destroy sin , and to make perfect , 1 Joh. 3. Heb. 10.14 . and this Work of Christ is known within ; which to bear witness of , is no pride of heart ( as our Accuser saith ) And as these Scriptures mentioned by him ( from whence he seems to plead for sin ) so far as they either relate to the state , in which all are sinners , and none Righteous ; or to the state , wherein some are in the spiritual warfare , warring against sin ; or where sometimes the Apostles condescended as to number themselves , amongst them that had sin , and so condescended to speak of states below their own , ( as having been in them ) I say these Scriptures , do not reach all states and conditions ; for he that is born of God , that hath obtained victory over sin , who walketh after the Spirit of God , and he that abideth in Christ sinneth not , being washed and cleansed by the blood of Christ ; which cleanseth them that walk in his Light , from all sin ; See 1 Joh. 1.9 . & Chap. 3. Rev. 1.5 , and it is said , Thy People shall be all Righteousness , Isa. 60.21 . And blessed are the undefiled in the way , they also do no iniquiry , Psal. 119.1 , 2 , 3. Ézek . 36.25 . So that , what we ( called Quakers ) do hold in this thing , is a true Testimony against all the Ministers of unrighteousness , who contend and plead for sin , the term of Life , and number the Righteous that are in Christ , among the wicked , who are out of the way , and none of them Righteous ; nor that doth good , no , not one , Rom. 3.10 . which Scripture C. VV. hath brought against Perfection ; and so like the deceivers of old , that put no difference between the Holy and profane . VI. Of studying old Authors , and receiving the Gospel , &c. And whereas in the Paper , from them called Quakers , it 's said , That the Apostles received not the Gospel at Oxford or Cambridge , nor by studying old Authors , &c. to this C. VV. replies ; Perhaps the Apostles were never in England : I may pay you in your own Coin thus , viz. the Apostles never received the Gospel at Colonel Vivers his House in Banbury , nor at any of the Quakers Meeting-places in Braughton , or Bloxham , or Tadmerton . I answer ; This is as unfit a parallel , as his comparing their Preaching , if they are desired ( when they are upon a journey , about their own occasions ) with the Apostles going forth on purpose , in obedience to Christ , to Preach freely ; and Paul's speaking in the Synagogue , when the Rulers required him , Act. 13. when as he did not then go about a worldly occasion , but went on purpose to Preach Christ among the Jews , for which he often suffered persecution among them ( which the Priests , who stand in mans will , are loath to do ) but to the former parallel I say , that the Quakers Meetings , in these said places mentioned , and other places , ( where the Gospel is freely preached among them , and where they feel the Presence and Power of God among them ) are both according to the Example of the Saints , spoken of in Scripture , who often met in Houses , Joh. 2.19 . Act. 10.27 . Chap. 12.12 . & 20.8 . & 28.30 , 31. and their Meetings are more justifiable , than the Priests education to their Ministry , at Oxford or Cambridge , according to man's will , by natural learning and studying Philosophy , and old Authors ; all which a natural man may do , that never knew Christ ; and for which manner of education to their Ministry , they have no example from Christs Ministers , but from the Papists , and such as are in the Apostacy . And as for the Apostle Paul's mentioning what some of the Greek Poets said , Act. 17.28 . viz. In him we live , and move , and have our Being ( which is brought to prove the Priests studying old Authors , to Preach from them ) I say , this doth not prove their Practice , in that thing ; for we neither read , that the Apostle did either study old Authors for his Ministry , or gathered Sermons out of them to Preach ( as the Priests do ) but only that he mentions the words of their own Poets , to come over the Idolaters and Heathen ; for the thing contained in these words , he needed not study old Authors , for having learned the same thing from Christ in his Gospel , which he received not from man , nor by studying old Authors , as the Priests do , but by the Revelation of Jesus Christ , Gal. 1. VII . Of Womens keeping silence in the Churches . And as concerning those Women , which were commanded to keep silence in the Churches , and to learn of their Husbands at home , 1 Cor. 14.34 , 35. from hence C. VV. saith , 1. That by your Women , who are commanded to keep silence in the Churches , is meant the Female Sex. 2. And by Husbands is meant Husbands in the flesh , &c. his Reasons are , that the Female sex ought to be under obedience , and that men have no Husbands , and that a woman can never be a man , and a man can never be a woman , &c. And 2. It is meant Husbands in the flesh , because we have but one Husband in the Spirit , and because the Text speaks of Husbands at home , &c. To which I answer ; That what the Apostle said of Womens keeping silent in the Church , doth not relate to every state and condition , as to tye all the Females from ministering the Truth ; nor was what he to the Corinthians commanded ( in that case ) given as a general Rule to all others , so as to limit the Spirit of God from speaking , in either Male or Female ( and there were some Women that had no Husbands in the flesh to learn of ) but it had relation to the state that he then saw those Women in , who were commanded to keep silent , and to be in subjection , and to learn of their Husbands , and not to usurp : So we say , that they who are yet untaught themselves , and have their learning to seek , and who would be usurping , whether they be Males or Females , they are to be in silence , and under obedience , according to the Law ; but there is a farther state in Christ , where he is formed , in either Male or Female ( and where he is come to speak in either ) than that which is under the Law , or that wherein people are unlearned , or the state of Eve that was deceived , or of the Woman that would usurp over the Man ; For neither is the Man without the Woman , nor the Woman without the Man in the Lord ; and the Apostle admits of Womens praying and Prophecying in the Spirit of Truth . And as there were true Prophets , so there were true Prophetesses , spoken of in the Scriptures , both of the Old and New Testament , Exod. 15.20 . Judg. 4.4 . 2 King. 22.14 . Neh. 6.14 . Isa. 8.3 . Luk. 2.36 . Act. 21.9 . And it is said , Your Sons and Daughters shall Prophesie , Joel 2. Act. 2. And did not Women Preach the Resurrection of Christ , soon after he was risen ? Luk. 24.10 . And that saying , That a man can never be a Woman , I say in some sence , some Men may be accounted Women , as the false Prophets in Israel , and the Women that ruled over the People , when Children were their Oppressors , Isa. 3.12 . & Chap. 32. Jer. 51.30 . Ezek. 13. and such as were deceived and led captive in the Apostles dayes , were called , silly VVomen , 2 Tim. 3. And to his saying , pag. 18. That the whole Country , and he thinks , the whole Land , is acquainted with Anne Audlands presumptuous speaking in our Assembly ; and surely Anne Audland cannot deny , but that she is a VVoman . Answer ; As for presumptuous speaking , that is not proved against Anne Audland , but is denied as a slander ; and when at any time the Spirit of the Lord hath moved in Anne Andland to speak , or in any other Daughter or Hand-maid of the Lord , the Spirit ought not to be quenched , nor Prophesie to be despised , whether it proceed from true Prophets or Prophetesses : See further of this matter , in G. F. his Book , concerning Sons and Daughters , and Prophetesses speaking , &c. And as for C. VV. his Rhime , in the end of his Book , where he saith , Instead of Papists are the Quakers come , Disturbing all these parts of Christendom : Their Plots are Hellish too , their Deeds are evil ; Both boast of Christ ; no more , my Muse is civil . Answer ; Herein the world may see what a vain light and false spirit , this man is acted by , who hath herein appeared in the practice of Drunkards ( such as made Songs of David , Psal. 69.12 . ) or Fiddlers , in his lying Rhime against us ; and when he hath falsly charged us with Hellish Plots and evil Deeds , then saith , his Muse is civil ; wherein he hath appeared , more like a Fiddler or a Stage-player , than a Minister of Christ ; and many more of these falshoods , slanders , and absurdities there are , which I forbear to mention . And as to his saying , pag. 13. That here is the last Answer that ever he intended to send to the Quakers , &c. I say indeed , more prudence had he manifested , if he had kept silent , than he hath done in many things he hath asserted ; and silence hereafter , may be more safe for him and his Brethren , than to utter words without knowledge . And now I shall leave our Cause , and the Controversie ( that is betwixt C. VV. and us ) to the Lord , and all sober People to judge of . Here followeth something concerning the true Christ , and his being in his People , in Answer to Matthew Caffin , &c. HAving lately met with a Book of Matthew Caffin's , the latter part of which is entituled , The great Error and Mistake of the Quakers , concerning the true Christ , and how he is said to be in his People , &c. Wherein he doth much wrong , both that People , and their Principles , and abused the Truth it self ; and therefore I saw it expedient , to note a few particular things upon some of the chief heads of his matter , both for the clearing of the Truth , and for the discovery of his ignorance and confusion to him , and the rest of the Baptists , since that he hath been such an old and eminent opposer of the Truth , as many can testifie ; and as appears , his malice and envy , was so high against the People called Quakers , that he hath vomited out his own shame against them , whereby to render them odious in the sight of their enemies ; and that in such times as these , wherein they are made as the greatest object of mens hatred , persecution , and cruelty , which they have in a great measure undergone , and are liable still to undergo more of the same ; from which suffering , the Baptists themselves are not altogether free , if they be faithful to their own Principles : So that long ere this , they might have learned more wisdom , moderation , and discretion , than so to revile us now in the sight of our enemies , as Matthew Caffin ( who is one of their Leaders ) hath done . And now whereas in his matter against the Quakers , he beg to relate some mens experiences , in this wise , viz. Certain men being troubled about their present conditions , and thereupon following after as more excellent estate , have on a sudden been greatly carried forth with inward power and zeal , and wonderful quicknings , after some matters of holiness , so as scarce able to bear with the least appearance of pride , covetousness , or the like , in others , without reproof ; and at length have been secretly informed , that the powerful working within them , was Christ come in them , &c. but being somewhat fearful of delusions , did thereupon give up themselves diligently to pray unto the Lord , who at length graciously delivered them from the strong delusion , &c. To which I answer ; So it appears , that these motions and operations did arise from a true power in those People , which so far was the manifestation of Christ to and in them , that they were not only led to follow after a state of holiness ; but also upon their praying diligently to the Lord , he so far returned an acceptable answer to them , as that he graciously delivered them from the strong delusion . But mark Matthew Caffin's very next words , and what a conclusion he hath made , touching these inward motions and operations : I say ( saith he ) the strong delusion ; for is it not so indeed , when an evil spirit shall carry forth persons zealously to some things that is just , holy , and good , though he no lover of holiness , but really an Angel of darkness , that seemingly may appear to be an Angel of light , &c. See how M. C. hath herein contradicted his former words , and what gross ignorance and error he is in now , to conclude that an evil spirit , and an Angel of darkness , carries forth persons zealously to things that be just , holy , and good ; and of such persons also he speaks this , as before he confessed the Lord did graciously at length deliver them from strong delusion ; and so he hath done no better , than put light for darkness , and darkness for light ; And who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean ? And further , mark how in the next page , he hath again confuted himself ; for there he tells you , That the one and the true Spirit of God , being plainly to be known by his guiding and moving the Saints , not only to be just , holy , and zealous , in point of Conversation , but also steadfast in the Principles of Faith , &c. when before he said , it was an evil spirit that carries forth persons zealously to things that is just , holy , and good ; and now he tells you , it is the true Spirit of God , and so is plainly to be known : it 's well that at length he speaks some Truth , though to his own confusion , as all that are sober may easily see . M. C. accuseth one of us with saying , That Christ was never seen with any carnal eye , nor his voice heard with any carnal ear ; and to prove it , cites a Book , entituled , A Declaration to the Baptists , pag. 13. and another with saying , That the Flesh of Christ is a Figure ; for which he cites Saul's Errand , &c. pag. 14. To the former of which I say ; Christ , as he is truly to be seen and known in the Spirit , is a mistery , not seen nor heard with the carnal eye or ear ; with which agreeth his saying , viz. He that seeth me , seeth him that sent me ; who is not carnally to be seen ; neither had the unbelievers either heard the voice of God , or seen his shape , though he spake by his Son Christ ; and some that outwardly Christ spake to , understood not what he said , because they heard not his Word , Joh. 8.19 , 43. & 12.45 . 2. And as for the words in Saul's Errand , p. 14. what is said of Christ there ( as also in pag. 8. ) hath relation to his coming in the flesh , as therein being an example , ( as in Pet. 2.21 . ) and not in relation to the receiving his flesh in the mistery , as it is the Believers meat , for that is the substance ; but as to his outward manifestation in the flesh , he was God ; an example which was the very intent of the words Example or Figure ; being used in the said Book , for in some sence , they have relation to one thing , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and whether is it better for us to say , that Christ as in the flesh , was an example , or for M. Caffin to say , That in one sence the flesh of Christ profited nothing , as he hath , in pag. 41 ? set any rational man judge of this . And M. C. saith , That the eternal Spirit , which dwelt in the man whom the Jews crucified , which Spirit the Apostles received in them , is not the Christ , the Saviour of the world , but the visible man , &c. I answer ; Here he seems to divide the man Christ from the eternal Spirit , and so hath denied the eternal Spirit to be Christ ; but saith , the visible man is Christ , when as the Apostle saith , The last Adam was made a quickning Spirit , and the Lord is that Spirit , 1 Cor. 15.2 Cor. 3. And if the eternal Spirit be not the Christ , but the visible man , then it follows , that when the Apostle preacht that Jesus Christ was in the Saints , he did not intend that the eternal Spirit was in them , but the visible man ; which is both absurd and false . But in answer to several cavils and objections made against us , we own the true Christ , both as he was of the seed of David , according to the flesh , and in the dayes of his flesh , that he was the true Christ ( but not without the eternal Spirit ) and the Son of God with power , according to the Spirit of holiness , who said , Before Abraham was , I am ; and as to his dying and rising again , according to the Scriptures , and as now glorified with the Father , in the same glory that he was in , before the world was : This we confess according to the Scriptures , without any such blind distinction , as M. C. hath unjustly cast upon us . And M.C. saith , That the Quakers to deceive , intend not the Truth ; namely , that the visible man , whom the Jews crucified wi●hout , was the Christ. Answer , This is a slander ; for , they confess that Christ was crucified , and died , as concerning the flesh , but was quickned by the Spirit , 1 Pet. 3.18 . M. C. God thereby bearing false witness to the world , if the eternal Spirit , which the Apostles afterward received in them , be the Christ ; which Spirit never was slain , never had blood to shed . Answer , This tends not only to render the Apostles as false witnesses , who knew Christ in them , and dwelling in their hearts , and the second man to be made a quickning Spirit ( though before that he was known by some , after the flesh , and in the dayes of his flesh ) but also M. C. hath contradicted himself , in pag. 46. where speaking of Christ ( of whom the Jews said he had a Devil ) but the Disciples knew him to be the Spirit of Truth , he saith ; and in pag. 42. M. C. saith of Christ , viz. Yet now henceforth , saith the Apostle , know we him so no more ; that is , to esteem him upon that account ( viz. upon his being born of the Tribe of Judah , and of the Seed of Abraham ) or for that reason , meritoriously the Saviour of the World , but rather upon the account of his coming down from Heaven , his being the Son of God , &c. How sadly is M. C. lost and confounded herein ; one while to deny the eternal Spirit to be the Christ , and to say , but it was the visible man that was Christ ; another while to say , as that he is not to be known or esteemed upon his being born of the Tribe of Judah , but upon the account of his coming down from Heaven ; what then , was he a visible man as he came down from Heaven , or as he came of the Tribe of Judah and Seed of Abraham ? Here all may see this mans gross ignorance and confusion . And what if the eternal Spirit never was slain , never had blood to shed ( as in M. C. his account ? ) it doth not follow therefore , that he is not a Spirit who descended from Heaven ( as such a one ) and in time took upon him flesh and blood , Heb. 2.14 . and was put to death , as concerning the flesh ; who was the true Christ , both in the dayes of his flesh ( in that low estate of suffering ) and in the state of Glory , wherein he was before the world began . And as to his condescention , low estate , and suffering , as manifest in his People ( who have born in their Bodies the dying of the Lord ) and his blood or life which is poured forth ( and freely laid down of himself ) and fed upon ( in the Mistery ) by the Believers , M. C. is not in a capacity to receive what might be said thereof . And now to mend the matter , he saith of Christ , his being a quickning Spirit , That if the Spirit ( as Spirit ) be the last or second Adam ; then it follows , that the first man Adam , who was of the earth earthly , was first and before the eternal quickning Spirit , pag. 42. & 43. Answer , Would any rational man have laid down such an absurdity as this ? for here he cannot deny , but that the second Adam was made a quickning Spirit , as in 1 Cor. 15. but would not have him as a Spirit , to be the last or second Adam ( for if the Spirit ( as Spirit ) saith he ) so he would render the Apostles words false ; but I say , Christ being called the second Adam ( which is the Lord from Heaven ) was in reference to his manifestation in time , for their sakes that were lost in the first Adam ; and yet he is the first and the last . M. C. Those that were of the number of Gods Elect , in Ages past , waited for the Son of God from Heaven , who was raised from the dead , 1 Thes. 1.4 , 10. Now sure I am , that 't was the visible Body of Flesh , which was dead , and raised from the dead , which the Saints waited for : and in pag. 43. Our Faith and full perswasion , that Christ is a visible glorified man , leads us to expect his second coming , as a distinct appearance from , and not in his People , &c. Answer , 1. If the Saints of God in ages past , and the number of the Elect , did ( after Christ's Ascension ) wait for his visible Body of flesh from Heaven , as here he implies ; then it appears , in their dayes they waited in vain , and missed of their expectations , ( if so ) and this would render their Hope and Faith in the coming of Christ , of none effect . But the Apostle witnessed the contrary , as in 1 Thes. 1.9 , 10. when the Thessalonians were turned from Idols , then they waited for the Son of God from Heaven ; and Ch. 4.15 . We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord , &c. So the Saints , though in part they were then eye witnesses of the coming and glory of the Lord , yet they grew further in the knowledge of the several operations , appearances , and out-goings of him ( whose out-going have been from of old ) as they grew from glory to glory , by the same Spirit , 2 Cor. 3.18 . and the Apostles made known unto men , the power and coming of the Lord Jesus Christ , which power wrought in them ; and they that looked for Christ in the Apostles dayes , it was promised unto them , that he should appear the second time , without sin unto Salvation , Heb. 9.28 . which if this coming of Christ , was the coming of a visible Body of flesh , then the Saints in ages past , did not attain to the coming of Christ in their dayes , nor yet to Salvation from sin ; which erroneous conclusion that follows from M. C. his assertion , no wise man will own ; for if the Saints in their dayes , did not experience the coming of Christ unto their Salvation from sin , then where and in what state are they now , that are so long since deceased ? doth he suppose them to be in some Purgatory ? Surely M. C. is very ignorant , both of the spiritual knowledge , coming , and work of Christ , which was known in the Saints , and not carnally expected afar off , as he doth , who would shut Christ and his coming out of his People . And where in pag. 44. as his proofs , he cites , Rev. 22.20 . where it 's said , Surely I come quickly , even so come Lord Jesus ; and Act. 7. touching Stephen his looking up into Heaven , and seeing Jesus standing at the right hand of God : what doth M. C. suppose , that whereas Christ promised to come quickly , and John so prayed for his coming quickly , that this was a coming in a visible Body of flesh ? or that Stephen did see a visible Body of flesh in Heaven with carnal eyes , as he seems so much to imply ? This is gross Ignorance ; for Stephen's being full of the Holy Ghost , was the ground and cause of his seeing Heaven open , and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God. As also , in pag. 40. he denies , That it was the eternal Spirit that prayed in the man Christ , Joh. 17. and denies Jesus Christ to be the Annointing , but only the Anointed . Wherein his ignorance may be apparent to all that can see ( who read this ) for Christ and his Father are one ; who said , The Son can do nothing of himself ; and as being a quickning Spirit , and the Seed of Promise , he is both the Anointing and the Anointed , ( not divided ) though the manifestations of him , as such , are several , and his operations divers in the Saints . And as concerning Christ dwelling in the Saints , M. C. his interpretation of it is , That he is deep in their affections , much and oft in their thoughts and meditations ; and for proof , brings Phil. 1.7 . 2 Cor. 7.3 . touching the Saints being in one anothers hearts . Answer ; But Christ doth not appear to be very deep in M. C. his affections or meditations , who would keep him out of his People , as several of his Principles imply , who now would have Christ only to be but often in the thoughts and meditations of his People , which doth not fully reach the Being of Christ in the Saints , to operate , act , move , and Rule in his Members , who are in him , and he in them , giving them life , dominion , and peace ; whose life is manifest in their mortal Bodies , and he dwelling in their hearts by Faith , which is more than to be often in their thoughts and meditations , as if he might be often forgotten . And whereas M. C. makes a great cavilling against that Doctrin of the Light of Christ , being placed in People , as to be a sufficient Rule , and of such a Light being in every man ; and saith , That Humphry Smith , in the face of men and Devils , affirmeth , That there is no other Rule , Wayes , means , or Name , by which man shall ever come to walk with God , but by that which is manifest of God in him : And in opposition to this Doctrine , M. C. goes about to set the Scriptures , outward Commands and Teachings , as usless , if there be such a Light in men , pag. 48. and eight ( or more ) times in his scorn , he reiterates these words , viz. Turn to the Light within , saith the Quaker , pag. 49 , 50. Answer ; That of the Light of Christ , being a sufficient Rule , and being in some measure universally extended to all ; as Christ enlightens every man , is a Truth which indeed we do vindicate , both against men and Devils , who doth oppose it ; for it appears , it is the Devils , and such as are led by them , that oppose this Principle ; and that is the reason why we are constrained so much to appear against them in it to their faces : And we in owning the sufficiency of this Light in men , do neither make void , nor disown the Scriptures , nor true outward Teaching ; knowing that by the Light , or that which may be known of God within , men come to see and feel the right end and use of outward Teaching , and the Scriptures ; for the Spirit of Truth leadeth into all Truth ; and where the Light of Christ within is believed and obeyed , it leadeth out of darkness , and out of the wayes and works of darkness , into the path and way of the Just ; which is a shining Light , that shineth more and more , until the perfect day , Prov. 4.18 . But there is a Generation that rejects and rebels against the Light , that knows not the wayes of it , because they do not abide in the paths of it , Job 24.13 . And though we do own outward Teaching , so far as it tends to direct peoples minds to the Light of Christ within ; and the Scriptures in their place : yet we know , that God is not limitted or tyed to those outward things , as if none could be saved ( or had a true Rule to walk with God by ) but they who have the letter of the Scriptures , and outward Teaching ; for the extent of the Grace of God , which bringeth Salvation , is larger than so , it having appeared to all men , and is sufficient to teach to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts , and to live righteously , &c. Tit. 2.11 . Rom. 5.18 . and many have this Grace given them , that have neither the Scriptures , nor the outward ministration of the Gospel , though it be preached in every Creature , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Col. 1.23 . yet where ( and as ) the Lord is pleased to send outward Teaching , it is of use , as to the turning of People to the Light of Christ , which shineth in the hearts , to give the Light of the knowledge of the Glory of God , in the face of Christ , 2 Cor. 4.6 . M. C. in pag. 48. saith of the Apostles , What were they to preach to them ? not that one thing of turning to the Light , their Teacher within , but all things whatsoever , Mat. 28.19 , 20. all the Counsel of God , Act. 20.27 . Answ. What , were the Apostles to preach all things whatsoever , all the Counsel of God , and yet not the Light within ? What , was that none of the Counsel of God ? Herein this man hath more lost himself than ever ; and yet he is made in general words to confess , that Christ was set to be a Light of the Gentiles ; and what , were they not to turn to his Light within ? This is gross ignorance and error ; for Christ , who is come a Light into the world , that whosoever believeth in him , might have everlasting Life ; and who is given a Light to enlighten the Gentiles , Luk. 2.32 . is the way to the Father , and the Way , the Truth , and the Life ; and his Life is the Light of men , Joh. 1.4 , 9. And did not the Apostles preach to turn men to his Light , that one thing in them ? I see for all M. C. his scoffing and cavilling against the Light within , and our exhorting men to turn to it , it stands over him and his folly and deceit , though so often over he hath reiterated his canting language against the Light within ; more like the sturdy Beggars , or a Ballad-singer , or a Stage-player , than a consciencious , zealous Professor . And the truth of this our Doctrin , of the Light within , will remain and live , when all empty Professions , carnal Ordinances , Traditions , and Will-worships ( which are upheld or practised , without the guidance of the Light of Christ within ) will wither , fall , and come to naught , as will all formal , wilful , and dry Professors , who make war against , and oppose the Light within , and them that are in it . Many more of M. C. his absurdities and slanders ( against the Truth and us ) I here omit , as not worth , either mentioning or taking notice of . London , Written near the beginning of the first Month , 1662 . From a living and tryed Witness of the powerful Truth , GEORGE WHITEHEAD . THE END . 
A65878	----	The popish informer reprehended for his false information against the Quakers meeting in reply to ... An answer to a seditious libel, as he most falsly terms the late innocent declaration from the people of God, called, Quakers, against all seditious conventicles, &c. (wherein their innocency is cleared, and herein vindicated) : unto which is annexed, a brief recital of some accusations cast upon the said people, by one H. Thorndike, one of the prebends of Westminster, in his book entituled, A discourse of the forbearance, or the penalties which a due reformation requires. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1670 Approx. 47 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 12 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65878 Wing W1946 ESTC R20124 12291496 ocm 12291496 58904 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65878) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58904) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:19) The popish informer reprehended for his false information against the Quakers meeting in reply to ... An answer to a seditious libel, as he most falsly terms the late innocent declaration from the people of God, called, Quakers, against all seditious conventicles, &c. (wherein their innocency is cleared, and herein vindicated) : unto which is annexed, a brief recital of some accusations cast upon the said people, by one H. Thorndike, one of the prebends of Westminster, in his book entituled, A discourse of the forbearance, or the penalties which a due reformation requires. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 23 p. s.n.], [London? : 1670. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Signed: G.W., W.S. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Thorndike, Herbert, 1598-1672. -- Discourse of the forbearance, or the penalties which a due reformation requires. Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-05 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-05 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Popish Informer REPREHENDED For his False Information against THE Quakers Meetings : IN REPLY To a most Envious , Abusive , Seditious , and Irrational Pamphlet , stiled , An Answer to a Sedit●●●● Libel , as he most falsly terms the late Innocent Declaration from the People of God , called , Quakers , against all Seditious Conventicles , &c. [ Wherein their Innocency is cleared , and herein vindicated . ] Unto which is annexed , A brief Recital of some Accusations cast upon the said People , by one H. Thorndike , one of the Prebends of Westminster , in his Book , entituled , A Discourse of the Forbearance , or the Penalties which a due Reformation requires . And thou , O God , shalt bring them down into the Pit of Corruption ; the Bloody and deceitfull men shall not live half their dayes , Psal. 55. 23. Printed in the Year , 1670. WHereas there is extant a certain Scandalous malicious Pamphlet , tending to encrease Persecution against-the Innocent People of God called , Quakers , ( without any name or Author subscribed ) wherein our late innocent Declaration is stiled , A Seditious Libel ; and our Meetings termed Seditious Conventicles ; and we accused of Dangerous Practises , &c. To Which we Answer , That we shall not need much to vindicate , our selves herein : First , because our innocency and clearness from these unjust charges is so manifest to our Nation and Neighbourhood . Secondly , because this false Informer and Accusar hath not brought forth any matter of either proof or validity against us ; and because he hath scandalized our Declaration , as being as Seditious Libel , and so slandered us therein , we may again give a hint of the nature and tendancy of our Declaration so accused , that it is a Declaration against all seditious Conventicles and dangerous practises of any who under colour or pretence of tender Conscience have , or may contrive Insurrections , this is the Title ; as also in our Declaration , the Worship of God in his Spirit and Power , the peaceable Truth , and seeking peace with all men , and meeting together to worship God therein , according to Christ and his Apostles , is vindicated , and a Testimony given against all Sedition , Conspiracy , contriving Insurrections ; as also it is judged gross Hypocrisie and Dissimulation for any to pretend tenderness of Conscience , and a Religious exercise , and under that colour intend a quite contrary thing , as to contrive Insurrections , &c. Concerning which we , who are called Quakers , can say , in the presence of God , we are free and clear from all such things in the sight of God , Angels and Men : Thus far is signified in our Declaration . Now let the moderate Reader judge , whether this Testimony of ours be seditious yea or nay , as this false Informer hath accused it ? or whether his Pamphlet and Information herein be not absolutely seditious against the Government , and common good of the Nation ; for herein he hath accused us of Sedition , for our declaring against Sedition , dangerous practices , and contriving Insurrections : And whether herein he hath not appeared more like a Popish Emissary , then a good Subject ? Whereas this Informer accuseth us , as followeth , viz Inform. The Quakers do not exercise any part of Divine Worship , according to the Liturgy , &c. Answ. The Divine Worship is in the Spirit and in the Truth , and therein we meet , we wait , we call upon God , as his People of old did , who knew not how to pray , but as the Spirit helped their infirmities , and this is according to the Spirit of Truth , which the Liturgy refers and directs men to , and the Scriptures direct us to this Spirit of Truth , to follow its guidance and teaching ; and dare this Accusar plainly affirm , that the Liturgy , and Practice of the Church of England do not allow of this ? has not he herein accused the Church of England ? then what Church doth he belong to ? and doth not the word Liturgy of the Church , signifie , The publick Work , Action , or Service of the Church ? and can any reasonably confine it only to Reading Confessions of sins , and Prayers ? for is there not both a Prayer before Sermon , and Preaching also used in the Church , which are not particularly recorded in the Common-Prayer-Book ? Besides , this our Accusar , though he would shew himself both a Divine and a Lawyer , yet he is good at neither Law nor Gospel ; for the words of the Act , viz. Any Assembly , Meeting , or Conventicle under colour or pretence of any Exercise of Religion , in other manner then according to the Liturgy of the Church of England , &c. the sence hereof he tyes up to this , ( saith he ) It must be according to the form and method there prescribed , that is publick Prayer , in places set apart ; there being in the Liturgy prescribed Forms as well for private as publick Worships , &c. as if he would tell us , that the religious exercise that is according to the Common-Prayer , is the Common Prayer it self ; and so unless we have it read , we are hereby deemed to be under a colour of religious exercise not according to it , which is gross non-sence and ignorance ; for that which is according to ●he Liturgy is not the Liturgy it self ; besides the words colour or pretence of any exercise of Religion , relate to the Title and Preamble of the Act , as not being the real manifestation of Worship , but a Cover to carry on some contrary , design or intention of Sedition or Insurrection ; for the Title of the Act , is , An Act to prevent and suppress seditious Conventicles ; therefore , not to prevent and suppress peaceable harmless Meetings , which are really for the Worship and Service of God , in the Spirit and Truth . The Preamble which ought to be the Key and Reason of the Law , is against the growing and dangerous practises of Seditious . Sectaries , and other disloyal Persons , who under pretence of tender Conscences , have , or may at their Meetings contrive Insurrections ; hereby the words Colour and Pretence are sufficiently explained ; and that it ought not to be inflicted upon people who are really of tender Consciences towards God in their exercise of Religion and Worship , which we being concerned in , have not in the least , forfeited the liberty to tender Consciences so often promised by the King , both in his Letters from Breda , and divers Declarations since . Again , whereas this Informer accuseth us of a seditious and blasphemous Pamphlet , published in the year 1664. without repeating either any Sedition or Blasphemy in it , or shewing by what Author , &c. Let the indifferent Reader note his envy and malice herein , and how disingeniously he hath dealt by us . And now to prove our Practises dangerous he proceeds thus . Inform. That they have been dangerous Germany hath well experienced , by the rebellion of David George , the first of your Sect. Such another was John of Leydon , and Cobbs faction in England . Answ. This Informer would make the Magistrates believe strange Stories against us , if they would be but so easily drawn to dance at his Pipe , and do the Devils drudgery of persecution for him , as his malicious spirit would have them ; and if they were so credulous as to believe his notorious Lyes and forgeries against the Quakers ; where he tells them of the Rebellion in Germany , bringing it as an instance against us , though most unjustly and impertinently : As also his calling David George the first of our Sect , which is a most manifest and absurd Falshood and Abuse ; for as History mentions of him , he was about the year , 1544 , and held ( as recorded ) very blasphemous licencious doctrines ; as that he was Christ the Messiah ; and declared Polygamy ( or the having many Wive , ) to be free and lawful : And further ( it s said ) Embroyled the lower parts of Germany in Tumults , * which things both our righteous Principles and innocent Lives do utterly testifie against . And as for John of Leyden , who lived also about the same time , who is said to have had his Meetings all in the night time ) he is represented as one of the same Principle , to allow of the same gross evil of Polygamy . whose extravigancies , pride , and presumption , in his causing Wars , and Disturbances , and assuming Kings-ship ( as recorded of him ) our Religion and Example do also condemn as repugnant to the very Nature and Life of Christianity . And besides , where doth History or intilligent Persons relate that either David George , John of Leiden , or Cobs Faction , were accounted Quakers in their time ? Do but see the malice and falshood of this Accuser and Informer , thus to render such our Presidents , whose Example we never followed ; and if he could nominate thousands of rebellious Persons , doth it appear just in him to endeavour the prejudicing , and instigation of the Rulers against such as are Innocent and Peaceable , both in their Principles and Deportments : Surely such cruel and partial Informers as this , who hath no more sence either of the common good of the Nation , nor what 's consistant with human Society , nor yet of their Innocency whom he accuseth ; but would have People disturbed and persecuted for their Consciences , upon his meer false suggestions , and evil surmises , would bring the Nation to a sad pass , if they had their wicked wills , who have neither Truth , Reason , nor hnman Pollicy , in their seeking to blow up the Coals of Sedition , Strife , and Persecution amongst their Neighbours , which is never like to compose differences in matters of Religion and Conscience , but to make them wider and more incomposible . Inform. There is Sedition and Rebellion implyed in the Doctrine you teach at your Conventicles : You preach against Dignities , and Titles of Honour ; calling them Antichristian contrary to the Scripture , &c. Answ. Here is an Accusation of an implicit Sedition and Rebellion in our Doctrine ; but no proof , only a false Accusation added , That we preach against Dignities , which is a gross Slander ; for both Dignities and Dominion we own , knowing that its Truth and Righteousness which only doth Dignifie and make Worthy and honourable ; it is Vertue and Wisdom makes honorable & worthy ; and all Titles that are proper thereunto , which truly express either the Virtue , Dignity , or Worth of Rulers , and their Dominion , we never opposed ; but flattering , complemental deceitful Titles , which tend but to please men , and gratifie proud spirits , we utterly deny , as that which our Maker would condemn us for , should we use them : This Informer had dealt more ingeniously , had he told us what those ( he calls ) Titles of Honour are , which the Scripture commands , and which he saith , we call Antichristian . Inform. To the King belongs Obedience ; you must obey his Laws , and those either actively or passively ; but you are content with neither . Whatsoever is commanded by Authority , if it be not contrary to the Word of God , must be obeyed actively , and not passively . Passive Obedience is only required when things contrary to the Word of God are commanded . Answ. It is a false Accusation , That we are content with neither ; for we obey both actively and passively ; Actively so far as stands with our Peace of Conscience , in the Sight of God , and otherwise we are passive , as our patient suffering so deeply , hath amply shewed : Howbeit , this Accusar hath implied , That there may be Laws or Commands contrary to the Word of God ; it is well he will allow the Word of God any room , in saying , Whatsoever is commanded , if it be not contrary to the Word of God , it must be obeyed actively : So then it follows , that whatsoever is contrary must not ; for indeed , the Word and Law of God are indispensable ; and God hath placed an equal and just Law of Reason in mans heart , * which neither Statute , Presciption , nor Custom ought to prevail against ; but if any be brought in against it , they are to be holden for void , and against justice , and so no Laws according to Doct. & Stud. Cap. 2. And no man of what estate or degree soever , hath Power to dispence with God's Law , 28 H. 8. And now , what is according to the Law of God , or not ac-according to it , the prejudiced persecuting spirit is no meet nor competent Judge to be sure : but the patient suffering Spirit and Mind , that dwells in the true Light , being qualified with Graces and Ornaments of the Spirit of God , which are , Love , Joy , Peace , Long-suffering , Gentleness , Goodness , Faith , Meekness , Temperance , against which there is no Law , Gal. 5. Whereas the fruits of the flesh are contrary , as , Hatred , Variance , Emulation , Stife , Sedition , Heresies , &c. above all which the Spirit of Truth , and its Fruits are exalted , and followed by the Children of Light , who are born after the Spirit , who are persecuted and oppressed only by such as are born after the flesh ; and herein are you , malicious Persecutors , manifest of what seed and birth you are , see , Gal. 4. 29. Inform. It is not necessary that all things commanded by Authority must have a command , or president in Scripture ; for many things are left indifferent to the discretion of God's Vicegerents , as Kings , &c. A Power is likewise in the Governours of the Church , to impose such things as they shall find necessary to be observed in the publick Worship of God ; and this we may infer from those words of the Apostle , The rest will I set in order when I come . Answ. To the first part , Nothing essential to the Worship of God can truly be deemed indifferent , nor differently left to mens discretion , for the Law of the Spirit of Life is the true and infallible Rule to Believers in the true Worship , and mens judgements ought to be subject thereunto ; but as for this notion , of things indifferent in the Worship of God ; it has been an inlet to much Idolatry and Superstition amongst Apostates and pretended Christians : However , it is a gross impiety , as also an interfering with their own Principle , for any to persecute others meerly for things which themselves deem indifferent , which in moderation might better be dispenced with , then rigorously to inforce them . To the second part , This Informer seems to set up a second sort of Governours in the Church , besides ( or above ) Kings , as having power to impose things in worship , without either Scripture or President thereof , which is rank Popery , tending to encourage Popery , and to bege● People into an implicit faith , and acceptance of unwritten Traditions , from those he counts Governours of the Church ; but herein he hath plainly opposed the Protestants high esteem and preferment of the holy-Scriptures . And his instance of the Apostle , The rest will I set in order when I come , will make nothing for his purpose , to bring dissenters under all the unscriptural Impositions and Ceremonies of these he calls Governours of the Church : whether he means the Pope , his Cardinals , Bishops , and Clergy , he hath not told us ; or whether he means some oth●● 〈◊〉 kin to them in their Traditions : But herein he has but 〈◊〉 begged the Question , as if he took it for granted , that conscientious Dissenters must presently , upon his bare word , believe that these Imposers he now pleads for , are in the same Power and Authority and Example with the Apostles and Ministers of Christ in former dayes ; but Dissenters must have a better demonstration then this mans bare word for it , or the Persecution and Cruelty he would instigate to , but he has greatly erred in these matters ; for the true Church had one Head and Law-giver even Christ , and wherein the true Ministers and Elders thereof did give directions , either for ordering affairs or to follow them ; It was not from a meer imposition nor outward force , nor yet as Lords over Gods Heritage , neither to have dominion over their Faith , but in the unity of the Spirit of Life , as Fellow-Helpers in Christ , and as being manifest by the powerful evidence of his Spirit even in their Consciences ; so said the Apostle , Be ye Followers of me as dear Children , even as I am of Christ : Now such Children as he begot into the Faith knew it their duty to follow him , as they knew him a Follower of Christ ; but this is no ground for either the Pope , or his Clergy , or any that are popish in their unwritten Traditions , to impose them , or force them upon such as are none of their Children , for that is but a meer usurpation at most , and but Antichristian . Inform. Honour the King , but this you preach against . Answ. This is an absolute Slander , for the Fear of God , to which the true Honour of Kings is joyned , we have alwayes owned ▪ and preacht up , desiring that the Fear of God might not be slighted , nor such wicked actions , pollutions , and corruptions committed in the Nations as do both greatly provoke God , and dishonour the King and Government . True Honour is a substantial thing , not consisting in feigned complements , nor deform'd cringes . Inform. The best Language he ( to wit the King ) can get from you is Thou and Thee , as if he were your Fellow ; this error of yours , &c. Answ. Is Thou and Thee such bad dishonourable Language ? Why dost thou then use thee and thou to God in thy Prayers ( if thou hast so much Religion to pray at all ? ) But hast thou not herein accused the Prophets and Apostles with ill Language and with dishonouring Kings and Rulers , by using Thou and Thee when they spoke particularly ; for was it not the Language of Moses to Pharoah , who was a King , The Lord God hath sent Me unto Thee , saying ▪ Let my People go that they may serve me , but hitherto Thou wouldst not hear . And Exod. 7. 16. And how long wilt Thou refuse to humble thy self before me ? let my People go that they may serve me , Chap. 10. 3. And did not the Prophet Nathan say to King David , Thou art the man ? 2. Sam. 12. 7. And did not the three Children answer Nebucadnezar the King , Be it known unto Thee , O King , that we will not serve Thy gods , nor worship the golden image which Thou hast set up ? Dan. 3. 16 , 17 , 18. And did not Paul use the word Thee to King Agrippa ? Act. 26. 2 , 3. But if this Informer had but remembred his Accidence , and the difference between Singular and Plural he need not have counted Thee and Thou to one such ill Language . Inform. Serve none else but him who hath called you from a Worldly to a Spiritual Imployment ( This is the meaning he gives to the words , Call no man Master , &c. Answ. If true Ministers must only serve Christ who hath called them , then Christs Followers are not to be imposed upon , at mens wills or discretions , ( so called ) but to obey and follow Christ , who is their Leader , Master , and Governour ; and this breaks the neck of this Accusers stuff against Quakers . Inform. The next thing that belongs to Caesar is Tribute ▪ we shall not deny but that you pay Taxes ▪ because you are compelled ▪ &c. Answ. Our paying Taxes is not from compulsion , or wrath , but for Conscience sake , our end and intent therein being honest and reasonable as in the sight of God ; for the upholding of Government , for the execution of Justice and Righteousness ; our desires being that Rulers might be a terror to Evildoers , and a praise to them that do well ; for the preservation of men in their respective Proprieties , Rights , and Liberties ; so that in our paying our Dues we have a Testimony for God , and may with a good Conscience clame our Rights and Liberties as men , and ought also to have our Freedom as Christians , whilst we give to God his Due , and to Caesar his Due , which neither this Accuser nor all the Devils Agents besides can justly detect us in , though to prove that we do not give to God those things due to him , he goes on thus . Inform. Here you fail ; what hath been once dedicated to God , and set apart for the Maintenance of his Service and Worship , doth belong to God. Answ. This [ doth belong ] is a false Assertion , for those many ordinances of Divine Service under the Law , with the Sacrifices , Offerings , divers Washings , and many Shaddows , which belonged to the outward Tabernacle and Temple , have been dedicated for the Service of God in their time , which now are ended in Christ ; as the Tythes are , which were given to the Priests , for their service at the Tabernacle , Numbers ▪ 18 ▪ which had an end , the substance of all being Manifest in Christ. Inform. God hath assigned this payment to his Ministers , They that wait at the Alter should live of the Alter , and they which preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel ▪ so that whosoever refuseth to pay Tythes to the Ministers doth not give to God the things that belong to God. Answ. Here he grosly perverts that Scripture , 1 Cor. 9. 13. 14. rendering it as if living of the Gospel were in the same manner of the Priests living of the Alter under the Law ; whereas at the Altar they pertook of both Tythes and Offerings , must they therfore live upon Tythes and Offerings under the Gospel ? where is then the difference between Law and Gospel ? and how are Offerings ended under the Gospel ? and a tenth part of the Tythes of the Children of Israel was to be offered up a heave-Offering unto the Lord , Num. 18. 26 , 27 , 28 , 29. But as for the words [ even so ] they relate not to the manner of living of the Alter : but to the Lord 's Ordaining , as even so hath the Lord ordained , that they that preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel , 1. or . 9. 14. so the Gospel makes way for the true Minsters Maintenance , which is not a forced Maintenance , neither is it Tythes or Offerings ; for as is fully testified in Heb. 7. the Priesthood being changed there is made of necessity a change also of the Law ; the Sons of Levy who received the Office of the Priesthood had a Command to take Tythes of their Bretheren , but this is ended as it is said ; there is a disanulling of the Commandment going before ; so this man might as well have accused the Apostle with failing to pay to God his Due , as have accused us in the matter of Tythes , seeing our Testimony is one and the same : But this Informer shews himself to have little regard to Scripture , whilst he can plead the discretion of Magistrates and imposition of Governours , for things in matter of Worship , which he hath neither Scripture Command or president for , especially among the primitive Christians and Apostles . Inform. His Worship in Spirit and Truth is but the lesser part of his due . It is obedience God desires rather then Sacrifice or Worship ; God commands you to be obedient to Authority . Answ. Let the Reader mark here how absurdly he reasons ; First , implying a Worship of God in Spirit and Truth , without obedience which cannot be ; for that Worship which stands in Spirit and Truth is Obedience , for Truth admits of no disobedience . Secondly , his deeming the true Worship of God to be but the lesser part of his due ; and Obedience to Authority to be the greater ▪ herein he hath blasphemously set up an Authority above God , and so man above his Maker ; for it is outward Authority his words intend ; but he is greatly mistaken , for we in worshipping and obeying God in Spirit and Truth , which is our principal Duty , do not oppose nor resist any Authority , or wholsom Laws , which have a dependance upon the Authority and Law of God. Where we said , We do not meet to plot or contrive Insurrections . Inform. We have but your bare word for it . Answ. This is false , you have more then our bare word ( viz. ) our innocent behaviour , and harmless deportment , evidently mani●ested through the many Afflictions , Persecutions , and Cruelties that we have patiently undergone since we were a People , and all for the Testimony of our tender Consciences towards God ; therefore it is evident that we have but this mans bare word for proof , that our Meetings are either seditious Conventicles , or tending to Insurrection , and if he were not wilfully blind he might see the contrary openly evinced by our Christian Conversation , in the peaceable exercise of our Religion and Conscience . Inform. It is true , there is danger enough in your small meetings , but much more in your greater meetings of hundreds ; for by lessning your meetings , we may better secure both Church and State ; for ten or twelve can make no great disturbance in a place ; a Constable may suppress these ; but where five or six hundred more shall meet , and finding an opportunity , make an Insurrection may set a whole City on flames , &c. Answ. What danger hath this man seen in any of our Meetings , either small or great ? we challenge him , and all such malicious Informers in the World , to prove any danger or hurt by us in our Meetings ? Besides , has not he herein struck at the Parliaments allowing small meetings , of four Persons above the Families , besides all such as are under the age of sixteen years , as i● therein they allowed of dangerous and seditious Meetings , which we are confident they do not believe concerning us called Quakers . And as for this Accusers judging our greater Meetings , of hundreds , to be much more dangerous , and therefore would have them less●ed ; what ground or reason has he for his evil surmise in this , seeing when our Meetings are large , our doors being open , many mixt people may come and behold us and our order ? that if we were of that ill mind , as to contrive Evil or Sedition , we could not have opportunity ; we should be the maddest Plotters that ever were , if we should be so publick and obvious therein ; but the Lord has redeemed us out of all such occasions both publick and private ; we have given no occasion of either fear , suspition , or jealousy to our Persecutors in those matters , it is their own guilt , and envious persecuting spirits that attract fears and troubles , the Witness of God persuing them for their injuries , and injustice , who afflict the Innocent , and oppress the Poor and Needy , for whose sake God will arise , and plead their Cause . Inform. Your antick tricks in your silent Meetings , &c. Answ. What antick tricks thou Slanderer and Scoffer ? though we have often waited in silence together upon God , and received comfort and benefit therein , from him by his Spirit wherein we wait and worship him : And what hast thou against this , thou bloody-minded Informer ? And what colour or pretence of Religious Exercise hast thou , to inform against these harmless silent Meetings ? Where is the colour or pretence ? and what exercise provest thou therein , that the Act takes hold of ? And what plotting or contriving hast thou ever heard or seen in any such Meetings , or in any of our Meetings , tending to set the City on flames ? And as for antick tricks , if the Devil had not blinded thee , and such as thou art ; thou mightest have made those ungodly Meetings at Play-Houses the subject of thy Information , and not the innocent pious Meetings of the People called Quakers . For is it not obvious , what impudency , antick whorish tricks and postures appear upon Stages , at Play-Houses , in and about the Cities of London and Westminster , to draw out the mindes of People into vanity , and a whorish spirit , as Women without the appearance of Modesty or Sobriety in their behaviour , and men dect in womens Apparel , to be examples of whorish postures ? besides the many vain shews and sights to affect and gratifie the vain wonton eyes , minds , and spirits of Youth , to draw them into impudency and debauchery , such abominations as is a Reproach to the Profession of Christianity , and a shame to the Nation . And to that of Mal. 1. 11. In every place Incense ( or Offerings ) shall be offered unto my Name ; This Informer gives this meaning , That this hath relation to the calling in of the Gentiles . The Coming of Christ and Convertion of the Gentiles by his Gospel ( i. e. ) in every Country or Nation ( To which we say , Why should we be deprived of this priviledge in our Country and Nation , where so much of Christ and Gospel is profest ? ) But then he adds , In places dedicated to my Name , the publique Places of God's Worship , his Houses , dedicated set apart for his peculiar Service , &c. Reply , But what Houses doth he intend ? are they Steeple-houses , which were dedicated for the Mass ? were these the Houses which he saith God put into their heart to build him ? it appears they are ; and to them he would have all compelled : but herein his Popish Spirit and Principle doth appear ; for did not the Papists build those Houses he pleads for , ( for their Worship ) as he thinks God put it into their hearts to do ? but , can he think that in every Country where the Gentiles are called in , there must of necessity be such places or Mass-houses ? or must the poor Ministers of Christ forbear to go into those Nations , to preach where there are no such consecrated by Pope or Bishop ? And then must the Gentiles in those Countries be unpreached to , uncalled and unconverted till such Houses are built and dedicated ? I hope the Reader will easily see the obsurdity and ignorance of this malicious Informer herein , who also adds , that is , Every place cannot be taken in the general sence ; for then it will take in Hell , where Sacrifices shall never be , &c. Wherein he most absurdly reasons ; for the subjects of this Prophesie were neither in Hell , nor to come there , being the converted Gentiles , as he confesseth . And who is so ignorant of Scripture , as to think that Christ and his Apostles were confined alwayes to meet in the Jews Temple and Synagogues ; for did they not meet on Mountains , by the Sea-side , and in Houses . And did not many hundreds of the primitive Christians meet together , and that at such places as were not dedicated or consecrated , as the Mass-houses are ? And did not Christ set up the true Worship in Spirit and Truth above the worship at the Temple of Jerusalem , where the Jews thought m●n ought to worship ? and was not that Temple a Figure ? and where i● there any Precept or Command in Scripture for the building such another , and compelling people thereto to Worship : answer by plain Scripture , or else stop your Mouthes [ you Persecutors about Religion ] the true Christians , who are Jews inward , worship God in the newness of the Spirit , and not in the oldness of the Letter ; they waited in the Spirit , they prayed in the Spirit , they sung in the Spirit , they had the Spirit of Grace and Supplication powered upon them , according to promise : And this Worship was divine , and not invented nor divised , nor framed up , nor yet performed in the will of man , What , and whence then was their Liturgie ? Let the holy Scriptures answer . And doth not the Lyturgy of the Church of England allow of the Holy Scriptures of Truth , and the Example of the primitive Christians therein recorded ? Let Truth and Reason answer . And whereas this Accuser saith , touching our Diffinitions in our Postscript ( viz ) upon the words Seditious , Disloyal , &c. That they agree very well with our Practises , and that we are guilty of all either in Posse or Esse , and therefore ought to be prevented . Reply , As this most partial and prejudiced Informer hath all along set himself in his Pamphlet , as both our false Accuser and unjust Judge ; so herein from his own groundless and evil surmise hath insinuated a most unjust Conclusion of guilt upon us as being Seditious and Disloyal ( that is loving Discord and Treachery ) wherein God and our Country knows he wrongs us ; but his proof of all against the Quakers amounts to nothing farther then an envious application of an old story of David George , and John of Leyden , &c. and to an envious conclusion , of being guilty either in Posse or Esse ; but whether this be any sufficient evidence either to convict or prevent us ; we leave to the just Witness of God in all Consciences , and to the consideration of all unprejudiced impartial-minded men , both Rulers and others . London , the 3d day of the 4th Moneth cal●●● June , 1670. From some of the People of God , called , Quakers . Here follows a Recital of some envious Information and Accusations against the Quakers ( by H. Thornedike , Prebend of Westminster-Church , so called ) in his Book , called , A Discourse of the forbearance or the Penalties , which a due Reformation requires . WHEREIN His unchristian and inhumane Spirit and Principle is discovered ; and hereby he hath shewed himself no better then the Jewish Priests , Popish Prelates , and other Merchants of Babylon . PAge 177. Saith this Prebend , But now , as for the Quakers , we are no more to reckon them among Christians , then the Gnonosticks and Manichees of old , then the Mahumetans at present . Reply , Here is no proof of any evil against the Quakers , but ●eer railing & misrepresenting them ; for they were never of the Principle of the Gnonosticks , Manichees , nor Mahumetans ; See what they held ; first , concerning Gnonostici or Gnosticks , they are recorded for Hereticks which swell●d in p●ide ( by some called Barbarites , by reason of their beastly life ) Epiphanius saith , the Valentines called themselves Gnostici , and that all women among them were common , &c. Now how most unjustly this Prebend hath compared us , ( called Quakers ) to such , let all that know us and our Principle judge ▪ for all such Debauchery , and ungodly Practises , and Ran●isme we utterly deny and abhor , they more suit the Spirit of many of his own Fraternity , who are owned as Sons of the Church , and more justly might be compared and applied unto them who are possest with the Spirit of Whoredom , among whom Whoredom and Drunkenness encrease , who for all that ( being capable to put into Priests mouthes ) remain unexcommunicated . And as for the Manichees it s recorded , they had their appellation from one M●●●s , a Heretick , who called himself Christ , and who said that Christ was not truly born , but fantastically ; and that he taught , that there were many Gods ; and that the Sun was to be worshipped ; and that the Souls of men went from one Body to another , &c. But these things were never believed , nor taught , nor owned by the Quakers : and therefore this prejudiced Prebend's instance and comparison herein , together with that of the M●h●metans against us , is most false , and malicious , and unjust ; and hereby he can never unchristian the Quakers ; for their Christianity both in Life and Principle stands over him ▪ and all such false Accusers . Preb. For they do openly own the dictates of their own Spirit to be as much the Word of God as the Scriptures ; acknowledging the Scriptures so far as they please . Reply , This is also a false Accusation , for it is not their own spirits , but the Spirit of God which they follow the dictates of , which agree with the holy Scriptures , by which Spirit of God the Revelations of the Mystery of Life and Salvation in Christ is given unto us , and we have received power , not only to profess , but to order our conversations according to the holy Scriptures . Preb. Introduce the pretences of their own Revelation where they think fit . Reply , This is also an evil suggestion ; for it is not such pretences , but the Revelation of Jesus Christ in reality , that by his Spirit is introduced amongst us . Preb. For when the private spirit is equalled with Gods Word , the last dictate , as in mens last Wills must of necessity take place . Reply , This is also false , as it is intended against us , called Quakers ; and no less then a Popish Accusation cast upon us , this being the very phrase of Papists against us , as calling the Spirit of Christ by which we are led a private spirit ; whereas indeed it is the universal Spirit which convinceth the World of sin , and leads the true Believers into all truth ; and in this universal Spirit we worship God , and have good will to all men . Preb. The Quakers follow everyone their own [ spirit ; ] therefore are the more contemptable . Reply , This also is a false and contemptable Accusation cast upon us , the same with the former ; for we prefer the Spirit of God , and its leadings , and not our own . Preb. Certainly , did they see that they cannot be reconciled , but as so many Runnagadoes , they would bethink themselves before they went on in their madness . Reply , Envious men are blind , and void of true Judgment , and are ready to stumble at Noon-day ; and though they have eyes , yet cannot see ; for we have received Grace , by which we are reconciled and redeemed from folly and madness ; by which Grace we are taught to deny ungodliness , and worldly lusts , and to live soberly , righteously , and godly in this present evil World. Preb. This their Position is not reconcileable to civil trust , alwayes oblieging them to the most desperate acts of Treason and violence to their Country , that they can imagine their own spirits to dictate . Rep. As this Position charged upon us ( of following our own private spirits ) is utterly false , so are also these Consequences , and they savour of a popish & blood thirsty spirit , that would bring Persecution and violence upon us ; therefore we challenge and charge this Prebend to prove ( if he can ) when , and where we were perfidious , either in matters of civil trust , or ever brought forth acts of Treason or Violence to our Country ; we charge it upon him , as a most malicious and envious instigation against us . Preb. It cannot be beyond the merit of their madness , that they are made Servi penae , by Law , as the Romans Law calls it ; That is , That they are transported to work in the Plantations — the Law is to provide for such People . Rep. Here is still more Railing and Instigation to Cruelty and Persecution : No doubt but this man , if he had Power , or Horns long enough he would be cruel enough ; we may expect the very mercies of such to be cruelty ; he would have us made Servi penae indeed , but we desire more competent Judges then such as he , who is not content with our ancient English Laws already made ; but would have crueller to bring us under servitude and vassalage in Forreign Plantations ; whereas many thousands of conscientious Dissenters , both Quakers and others , have estates already sufficient to live upon , which they have honestly laboured for ▪ But if this cruel Prebend's counsel might take effect against us , it appears we must have our Estates taken from us , and then be exiled as Slaves and Drudges : But doth he design , that he and his Companions shall have our Estates , or part of them , to spend upon their lust ? Surely , it is obvious what misery he , and such as are of his Gang would bring upon this Nation ; a considerable part whereof doth conscientiously dissent from this Prebend's Way and Religion , who hath thus shewn his inveterate , proud , imperious persecuting Spirit most repugnant to the equal Law of Christ , which enjoyns him to do to all men as he would they should do to him : Besides , what pride and presumption is it in him to take upon him to prescribe the Magistrates such a way and manner of proceeding against Dissenters , so contrary to the wholsom fundamental Laws ▪ Priviledges and Rights of English men . Preb. They must fail of civil trust of Subjects , that is , that their Testimonies be not taken in Law , That they be disabled to sue at Law ; That they be disabled to make Wills , or to get by Wills ; or anything else within the effect of civil trust ; And this must also be the penal●● of the Leviathan , and all that may follow him ▪ either into Apostacy or Atheism . Repl. This envious Informer would have us excluded out of all our rights at once , though without any just ground or reason : Let but all that are unbyassed in this Nation see what ranchor cruelty and injustice resides in this mans spirit , Leviathan ( crooked Serpent ) like , thus ●o seek to deprive free-born English men of their rights and privileges , and that without any proof or ground for his Accusations , accusing us of failing of the civil trust of Subjects , when as we have been found more trusty and faithful then many of his Coat , who have temporized , crept , and changed with every Form and change of Government , for Self-ends , Gain , and Preferment . Preb. For they who declare themselves as freedom to forswear the Christian Faith can never be held by any Bond of civil Trust : It must be also the Penalty of all Sects that may rel●ps . It may be a Q●estion , Why the Kingdom should be counted a Christian Kingdom , if the Laws of it set not some Mark of Infamy upon the Enemies of Christianity , which only the enforceing of Ex●ommunication by the La● can do . Repl. Who are to be marked as Enemies to Christianity ? This man is no competent Judge , for he hath already abused true Christians ( as such like ) seeking to instigate the Magistrates , to do his and his Brethrens Druggery of Persecution against them . And when and where did we ever declare our selves at freedom to forswear the Christian Faith ? Is not this an envious insinuation of thy own head and wicked heart , to make us odious ? We hope we shall have a better tryal ; end more impartial Judges , and more just Judgment than this mans , before he gets us transported to work in forreign Plantations ; but it appears , all this man aims at is the enforcing severity upon all that dissent from his Way ▪ And what doth he think will be the effect thereof ? And how will such cruel work compose the spirits of the People of this Nation ? doth he think to make up a good Church or a compleat Body , by driving men with force and cruelty into his way and worship ? Surely this is not the way to make sound Members , but to add to the number of Hypocrites ; nor is this the Way of Christianity : And where did Peter , Paul , Timothy or Titus go about to instigate the Rulers to Persecution , and to Transporting of men to be as Slaves and Vassals for their Religion and Conscience ? Or where did any of the true Ministers or Apostles endeavour to exclude either Jews or Gentiles from their outward civil Rights and Priviledges , or from the benefit of the civil Law of their Nation ? or endeavour and seek to set such a Mark upon them meerly for their Principle or difference in Judgment and Opinions ? Let this Prebend shew us a President , Precept , or Example among the true Christians in all the Scriptures of Truth for this his work . As for Apostacy and Athism , it is not amongst us , but among many professed and owned as Sons of that Church he is a Member of , who are run into a spirit of Liberty and Debauchery , whereby the Earth is corrupted , and the beauty of much of the Nation stained , and the profession of Christianity scandalized , and made odious in the eyes of Mahumitans , and other Nations ; but as for these things , he and his Fraternity can connive at and overlook them , while they can contribute to uphold them in their Pride , Idleness , and Fulness ; who notwithstanding cannot therein acquiess without envying the very Being of others more rational , prudent , and righteous then themselves . Well , you that appear in this cruel persecuting , domineering , Lordly spirit ; the Earth grows sick of you , and will assuredly vomit you out , and you will become a by-word and a hissing to the Nations , except you lower your Top-sayls , and bow down to the equal , just Principle of God in you , and so come into some lowliness , tenderness , and humility of spirit , out of the nature of the Beasts of prey , into the nature of Sheep and Lambs . Otherwise God will greatly debase you , and bring his Judgments upon you ; the Mouth of the Lord hath spoken it in and through his Servants , G. W. W. S. Some few Errors and Defects , in Letters and Points have escaped the Press through the expedition hereof , which the Reader may correct . PAge 4. line 11. for Spirit , read Scriptures . p. 5. l. 31. r. Magistrates . p. 6. l. 5. r. wives . l. 33. r. humans . p. 8. l. 14. for stife . r. strife . l. 29. for differently r. indifferently . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65878-e130 * As in Ross his View . * Whereby we call for Justice , and Equity . Notes for div A65878-e2160 Ecc. Cron. 567. Ecc. Cron. f. 599. 
A65880	----	George Whitehead's protestation against Francis Buss's persecution and abuse of the people call'd Quakers, his (quondum) beloved friends occasioned by his late scandalous paper, stiled, Some reasons &c. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1698 Approx. 7 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 2 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65880 Wing W1947A ESTC T40797 12291546 ocm 12291546 58908 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65880) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58908) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:20) George Whitehead's protestation against Francis Buss's persecution and abuse of the people call'd Quakers, his (quondum) beloved friends occasioned by his late scandalous paper, stiled, Some reasons &c. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1 sheet ([1] p.) s.n., [London? : 1698] Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to George Whitehead. cf. NUC pre-1956. Broadside. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Bugg, Francis, 1640-1724? -- Some reasons, &c. Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. Broadsides 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion George Whitehead's PROTESTATION against Francis Bugg's PERSECUTION and Abuse of the People call'd Quakers , his ( Quondum ) Beloved Friends ; occasioned by his late scandalous Paper , stiled , Some Reasons , &c. Memorandum , 1st . THat the said Francis Bugg , to his perpetual Infamy , invented and divulged in print a famous Piece of scandalous Forgery , in his extra judical Judicature , Trial and Condemnation of divers Honest Men of Good Reputation in and about the City of London , as Perjured Persons , for their Testimony against some of his notorious Falshoods and Perversions , staging them as set in a Pillory , Pictured , under the Title Perjury , with the first Letters of their Names over their Heads ; as the notorious shew thereof , may be seen at large in the said Bugg's New Rome Arraigned , Anno 1693. And the Persons thus defamed , their patiently forbearing , hitherto to enter their particular Actions of Defamation against him , he has ungratefully requited , by his persisting to accumulate Calumnies , and repeat Reproaches against the said People , to render them obnoxious . 2dly . The said Francis Bugg has also been detected for his presumptuous Impiety and Piece of insolent Forgery , in his diabolically inventing , forming and divulging a Sermon in George Whitehead's Name , stiling the same G. Whitehead's Sermon , to ridicule , defame and scandalize him and the said People , and their Annual Meeting , which he terms their Convocation ; in which notorious Piece of Forgery and profane Romance , he the said F. B. useth the Sacred Name of God and Christ , the Light within , &c. adding there unto , another Piece of abominable Forgery and Impiety , in William Bingley's Name , as if he preached in Confirmation of the other . This prophane impious Romance , may be seen at large , in Francis Bugg's Book , stiled , The Pilgrim's Progress from Quakerism to Christianity ; and answered by G. Whitehead , in his Book Entituled , The Rambling Pilgrim , or Prophane Apostate Exposed , Anno 1700. To his often repeated false Story against G. Whitehead , viz. That he put in his Answer upon Oath , i. e. To a Bill exhibited in the Lord Mayor's Court , April 9. 1695. And not only so , but that they ( i. e. the Quakers ) can take a Legal Oath to serve their private Interest ; and that there are many Instances thereof in the Courts of Chancery . Answ. I who was Defendant , as I did ( in my former Answer to F. B. ) deny that I put in my Answer upon Oath , so ( in good Conscience ) I do still ; for neither did I take an Oath , or Swear at all ; for I openly signified , that for Conscience sake I could not Swear ; and it was made appear that the Suit was vexatious ; for I produced an effectual Release from the Plantiffs , under their own Hands and Seals , pleaded by Counsel in Court in barr of their unjust Claim ; and my Answer was accepted only in these Words , viz. I verily believe my Answer is a True Answer : And if Jurat was Recorded or Endorsed , that was none of my Act ; for it has been a known Form , that some Clerks have used and entred Jurat , or Juratus , when no Oath , Imprecation or Ceremony of an Oath has been taken or used by the Persons concerned ; and I am not of Opinion that Verily is an Oath , as some are . As to F. B's . old refuted unjust Imputations against the said People , viz. That they are mortal Enemies to the Christian Religion , denying Jesus Christ of Nazareth to be the Christ , the Son of God , vilifying and contemning the Holy Scriptures , Contempt of Authority , &c. with many more injurious Aspersions of the like Nature , often repeated by him ; unto which our plain Answers have long been extant ; being printed and sold by T. Sowle in White-Hart-Court in Gracious-Street . But this implacable Adversary will Not be answered ; he 'll take no Answers , but repeat accumulate , and multiply his refuted Calumnies over , and over ; turn and modelize them into several Shapes ; sometime into History , sometime into Dialogue , sometime into Catechism , sometime into a Sermon , Prophane Romance , Scandalous Trial , &c. and all or mostly but the same Scurrilous Rubbish , like a mercenary Agent , he will be at work to defame and scandilize the People called Quakers : And when he hears of any of them attending the Parliament , he goes about peeping and prying , like a busie Body , in other Mens Matters ; and if he hears Relief in any Case is proposed , or requested by them ; then he rakes up some of his old repeated Calumnies and Slanders ( which he can easily do out of his old Books and Pamphlets stuff'd therewith ) to asperse and persecute them with lying Papers , thereby imposing on ( and abusing ) Authority ; which has been his Practice for many Years since he left the Quakers , and turned Persecutor against them . It has been manifest of old , that invidious and perfidious Apostates , are the worst sort of Persecutors . It appears , this Adversary would have no Favour shewn the said People , which is an Indication of his Persecuting Spirit , and Implacable Envy . Thus he treats the People call'd Quakers , since he was above 20 Years in Communion with them , and they esteemed his Beloved Friends ; his Dear Friends , &c. Friend F. Bugg I wish thou mayest yet find a Place of Repentance before thy approaching Judgment comes inevitably upon thee . However know this , That thy Reverend Abetters will never gain Honour or Credit to themselves by thy irreverend Actions , nor be thy Advocates before the Barr of Divine Justice , ( where you must all be accountable ) nor will all their Bounty toward thee , excuse thy presumptuous Impiety before the Righteous Judge of all . The QUAKER's PROTESTATION Against Francis Bugg's PERSECUTION , &c. 
A65873	----	The light and life of Christ within and the extent and efficacy thereof demonstrated. And the Quakers principles justified by the scriptures of truth, the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, from the false and blasphemous constructions put upon them by William Burnet, in his book, stiled, The captial principles of the people called Quakers : herein the rest of the Baptists that own him may see, his antichristian spirit and doctrines detected ... / by ... G. Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1668 Approx. 163 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 36 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65873 Wing W1941 ESTC R20094 12291439 ocm 12291439 58902 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65873) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58902) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:17) The light and life of Christ within and the extent and efficacy thereof demonstrated. And the Quakers principles justified by the scriptures of truth, the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, from the false and blasphemous constructions put upon them by William Burnet, in his book, stiled, The captial principles of the people called Quakers : herein the rest of the Baptists that own him may see, his antichristian spirit and doctrines detected ... / by ... G. Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 71 p. [s.n.], London : 1668. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Burnet, William. -- Capital principles of the people called Quakers. Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Rachel Losh Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Rachel Losh Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Light and Life OF Christ within , AND The Extent and Efficacy thereof DEMONSTRATED . AND The Quakers Principles Justified by the Scriptures of Truth , the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles , from the false and Blasphemous Constructions put upon them by WILLIAM BURNET , in his Book , stiled , The Capital Principles of the people called Quakers — Herein the rest of the Baptists that own him may see His Antichristian spirit and doctrines detected By a Servant of Christ , G. WHITEHEAD . His Doctrinal and self contradictions compared By a Servant of Christ , G. WHITEHEAD . His Ignorance and Errours discovered By a Servant of Christ , G. WHITEHEAD . His Envy and Feign edness reproved By a Servant of Christ , G. WHITEHEAD . Professing themselves to be wise , they became fools . Rom. 1.22 . London , Printed in the Year , 1668. The PREFACE . I Should very willingly have forborn to appear thus publick in such Controversies at this time ( if the Truth might have been otherwise cleared ) for I have a life in peace more than in contests , and a tender respect to the more Conscientious of all sorts professing Religion , that have a tenderness and sincerity in them ; but I am necessitated thus to appear , because of the hardness and perversness of some Baptists , and their publick reproaching and scandalizing the Truth professed by us called Quakers , both in words , preaching and print , and their clamouring up and down the Countries against us , both in Buckinghamshire , Surrey , Sussex , and other parts ; in which thing Matthew Caffin ( their great Agent and Contender ) and W. Burnet of Chertsey are chiefly concerned against us ; whereby they have to their power , supplied the Persecuters place , now in this little time of liberty , like persons implacable , envying our liberty and prosperity . William Burnets personal reflections in his Book against some amongst us , which he has gathered from Reports ( as the former persecuting Priests were wont to do ) I could more easily have passed by , than his wronging , perverting & opposing the truth of our Principles ( though several of his Reflections are false and slanderous ) for that any particular fall or failings of persons cannot rationally be alleaged to destroy principles fallen from . But considering the divisions that are amongst Baptists , even the Leaders , as to their Principles , it might have been some stop to W. B. his outrage in this matter , and they should have agreed among themselves before they had thus appeared against us ; some being for a particular Election of persons ; and both denying saving Grace to be free to all , and Christ's dying for all ; Others being for Christ's death for all , and General Redemption ; and some pleading for Free-will . Several of their Teachers , and some Hearers are for ( and observe ) the Seventh-day-Sabbath , ( imposed on the Jews ) and have preached , writ and printed for the imposing of it on Christians ; many others of them are against it . And why doth not our Opposer plead for his Water-Baptism and Seventh-day-Sabbath , here against us ? but therein he would not be popular enough . Many affirm Christ to have done and compleated all for Man on the Cross without ; But some , that the Offering was not compleated , nor the Type ( under the Law ) fully Answered , till he was entered into Heaven , or the Holy-Place . Many of them are for paying Priests Tythes , rather than suffer ; others have writ against it as Antichristian ; and yet few stand out of it . Some of their Teachers have contended and printed for taking the Oath — several gratifying the Persecuters , and swearing themselves out of Prison , by which others have suffered the more : which hath been a grief to some who were more Consciencious ; many of them running into holes and corners , not daring to meet publickly if but a little storm break forth . And has not W. B. heard how Thomas Tillam ( their great Seventh-day-Sabbath man ) and his fellow-prisoner , deceitfully made escape out of Ipswich Prison , which was no small blot upon them ? And have not some of them gotten into the Priests places , Pulpits , preached for Hire , Tythes , &c. as Tombs and others , when permitted ? As also two of their eminent Leaders , viz. Robert Everard , and Jo. Attaway of Brantree in Essex , turned Papists , and become great Contenders for the Church of Rome . These things I mention , as having been most obvious and publick — besides gross corruptions both as to principle and practice , might be further manifest against some of their Chieftains , which at present I shall forbear to mention here . And now though this W. B hath shewed his envious and persecuting spirit , which hath put forth its sting against us , We do in the Elect Seed tread upon its head , and are not pierced thereby . And that spirit shall be crushed , and the Elect shall reign over it in the power of Christ ; and I have as much satisfaction in appearing against the persecuting spirit in W. B. as against it in other open Opposers and Persecutors ; For what could we reasonably expect from him and such as he is , if they had power , but they would be as great Persecutors as any that we have suffered under , whilst they shew such enmity and implacableness at this time a day against us . And whereas W.B. in his Epistle sayes , he shall leave it , the Cause is God's , and whatever reproach he undergoes therein , he hopes he shal quietly bear , &c. By which he seems as if he would be quiet now when he has done his worst against us . But 't is probable he would have had more quietness and peace if he had never appeared thus against the Upright , as he hath done in his confused Book . Now Reader , take a view of some of his Doctrines and apparent Contradictions hereafter , whereby he hath given a deadly blow to his own Cause , which is proved none of God's . VV. Burnet his Contradictions . HEre are several of William Burnets Contradictions , collected in his own words , out of his Book , and compared , as followeth . [ W.B. in pag. 3. of his Book saith ] Paul preached a Christ made of a woman , and not a Christ in them that God will redeem the world by . [ But in contradiction he saith ] I do not deny that the fruits and effects of our Justification doth shew it self both within and without . Pag. 4. Paul's knowledge of sin came by the Law , and not by the Light within . [ Contradiction . ] The Grace of God received , and the Love of Christ revealed in the work of Regeneration , doth principle the heart with an enmity , to sin , and the Grace received in the work of Reconciliation begets a hatred to it , so that it is from the principle within . Pag. 5. I would not give any one ground of jealousie that I should judge that our obedience is any cause either of our Justification or Sanctification . And p. 10. The spirit in man , and obedience to that spirit , is not the cause of mans union with God. [ But in contradiction . ] pag. 35. We are sealed by an obedience to the Gospel . And Pag. 8. The Spirit is alive because of Righteousness . Paul's knowledge of sin came by the Law , not the Light within . [ Contradiction ] P. 8. That Light is in every man that doth convince of sin , the Commandment being accompanied with the Spirit . P. 9. There is a time when every man while unregenerated , the best of Saints were in darkness ; to what then shall such turn within for Light , that have there nothing but darkness — without any light in them ? They have no light in them — they have none in them , &c. [ But in positive Contradiction ] P. 8. I shall shew what that Light is in every man that doth convince of sin . P. 16. That Light is in every man that doth convince and reprove him for sin , or that a wicked man upon sins committing , receives checks from the Law written in the heart in creation , is the principal ground of Conscience-conviction — Man being made every way capable of doing the will of his Maker , having the Counsel or Law of God in his heart — he did not wholly lose his creation-light , for there was still a knowledge left in man of God. P. 16 , 17 , 18 , 19. That Light in every man is the Light of Nature , is Conscience , is an uncertain Guide — How sad will it be for that soul that gives up himself to follow it ! [ But in plain contradiction ] P. 10 , 16 , 17. Christ as he was the Word with God , so he was the Light of the World , and lighteth every man that cometh into the world — The Spirit that God hath placed in man is called the Candle of the Lord , the Spirit of Understanding ; — Every man by Nature having the Law placed in his heart , to wit , the Ten Commandments , in the substance or body of them — The very Heathen that never had the Gospel preached unto them , do witness to this Truth . P. 31. Oh how do these Hell-hatched Errors that have been fomented by Satan , and twisted into the hearts of these poor and ever-to-be pittied creatures ! [ Contradiction ] P. 28. I do much wonder where that Word or Doctrine was coyned , that they so often teach and exhort , that is , to turn to the Light within . [ Observation ] That Doctrine then may be founded in Heaven for ought he knows . P. 19 , 20 , 21. The Scripture's mans rule to walk by — the Rule of the Gospel , and compass to rule and stear by — not by the Light within . [ Contradiction ] The Spirit doth principle a Saint for his duty — the Spirit doth principle and fit a man for his worke , both in praying , hearing , and obedience . And P. 21. the reception of the Spirit is the only means to put a man into a capacity for , and give him right to obedience : nothing gives a soul right to Gospel Ordinances , but the gift of Christ to us , and his being revealed in us by his Spirit . P. 21. The Scriptures ought to be a rule and weapon , to be made use of at all times in defence against Satan ; our dear Lord was filled with the Spirit , yet he had an eye in all his obedience to the Scriptures . [ Contradictions ] P. 22. the Letter it self , as it is written with Ink on Paper , is dead : but the matter therein is Spiritual and Powerful , when carried home by the Spirit to the heart . P. 24. All the Prophets actions recorded are not all for our example . P. 34. Christ as he was the Word , which was God , was not a Saviour , but as he was to be the Offspring of man. P. 35. as he was the Word — as he was God he could not save man ; for God was the offended , and it was impossible for the offended to acquit the guilty . [ Contradictions ] P. 34. The Scripture giveth this Character of Christ , that he should be called Immanuel , Mat. 1.23 . that is to say , God with us , and in Isa. 9.6 . he is called the Mighty God ; Joh. 1.1 . he is called the Word — and in this sence is said to come down from Heaven — for as he from the dayes of eternity was with the Father he most properly derived that title of being the Son of God , Heb. 7.3 . 1 Joh. 3.8 . — P. 35. God hath designed that Redemption should be purchased by the Son of God. Observe . In that 1 Joh. 3.8 . the Son of God was manifested that he might destroy the works of the Devil ; And is not this to Salvation ? and Christ saith , the Son can do nothing of himself but what he seeth the Father do ; and the Father that dwelleth in him he doth the works , John 5.19 . & 14.10 . and that God is Saviour , and none besides him ( see Isa. 43.11 . & 45.4 . Hos. 13.4 . ) So what less is it than Blasphemy , to say , God could not save ? P. 35. God by his own Blood purchased to himself a Church , Acts 20.28 . [ But in contradiction to the Apostle herein , VV. B. saith ] God hath neither blood nor suffered . P. 35. Where it is said , No man hath been in Heaven , but the Son of man that came down from Heaven . [ But in Contradiction to Christ W. Burnet saith ] Christ's ascribing that to the Godhead , that properly refers to the Manhood , is a stumbling-stone . W. B. in his 39 th pag. saith , This is a gross mistake , to wit , that the blood that cleanseth from sin , is the life of Christ. [ Contradiction ] P. 40. Christ is the purchaser , and the price his life . P. 42. The bloodshed upon the Cross , the Material Blood , meritorious to Salvation , sprinkles the Consciences , — sanctifieth us : p. 38 , 39. Justifies : p. 42. Redeems &c. — [ But in Contradiction ] P. 40. that Blood shed is not in being — [ But he compares it to a price lost , &c. ] Observe here a twofold stress is laid upon that Blood ; 1. Merit to Salvation ; 2. Work to Sanctification . And so he hath set it up above God : for God could not save , he saith , and yet is not in being [ gross absurdity ! ] Whereas Sanctification being a real work inward , that is certain in being which effects it . P. 24. W. B. tells of looking to Jerusalem , to Jesus Christ , as he was there crucified , or to that Blood that was there shed for Justification . [ Contradiction ] p. 27 & 33. That Christ that restoreth mans loss , is both to be sought and found in Heaven , viz. above the Stars and Firmament . [ But in Contradiction to both ] p. 21. The reception of the Spirit the only means — The Gift of Christ to us , and his being revealed in us by his Spirit . [ Observ. Then Christ and his Life is nearer than either Jerusalem , or above the Clouds , though he ascended far above all Heavens . ] W. B. his false Aspersions . HEre follows some of W. Burnets Aspersions , Falshoods and Slanders , cast upon the Quakers , [ which are rejected and returned to that envious spirit from whence they came . ] As first , in his Epistle , which hath relation to his dark confused bundle , which is void of both spirit , life and light . After he pretends great respect to many of us for our honest lives , whose meanings he judges good ; yet he falsly saith , they are ensnared by their Teachers , whose hearts ( he saith ) Satan hath greatly deceived ; which is also false and incongruent . And , False it is , that our Teachers study twenty shuffles rather than discover their Principles when closely beset . False it is , and a slander , That there is none more unwilling to come to the Light to be proved , than we . False it is , That the Quakers slight Scriptures . It is a lying story , p. 23. That the last Summer the Quakers at London were startled , and went from one to another to ask counsel to know what to do upon one's coming out of the Country , and telling that the remaining part of the City should be burnt , and that the Fire should begin the next day , &c. Whereas there was no such thing ( or occasion given ) by any Quaker — But I am informed that a distempered bad man ( no Quaker , nor yet out of the Country ) and two women [ who were so far from being Quakers , that they were wont to oppose us , and rail against us openly ] did declare of the destruction of the remaining part shortly , and thereupon the Women left the City . And that young Bolton the Goldsmith should look like Ashes for fear . — This has come from some false tale-bearer like himself — And as for the storie he sayes he was told , of one of our Teachers , by R. Cox , about his false prediction of being taken at a Meeting in Middlesex . Why did he not name this pretended Teacher ? if he had , we should have appeared the more to be clear of this ; however the person intended is none of our Teachers , neither was he ever much owned amongst us . False it is , that the Quakers raised and blew about that report , That the Baptists were play'd away with Fidlers from a Dispute in Chertsey , and that it was so reported from one Ball in Amersham - Parish — is also false ; and he denies that ever he reported it , but only asked the question of one of Amersham concerning the report ; and he of whom he asked the question , clears him in this particular . False it is , That the Quakers Christ is not God's Christ , or that they deny the Man-Christ , or the Christ that is in the Heavens . [ Did not W. Burnet learn this distinction of the Quakers Christ from Matthew Caffin ? ] False it is , that we uncrown the Lord , or put the honour due to Christ to a Light of Nature . And , A slander it is , That our Principles are poysonous . False it is , that we hold Christ fulfilled not any type or part of the Law , by his suffering on the Cross — A malicious slander , That our Principles are Hell-hatched Errours , fomented by Satan . A slander also , That we trample under-foot the Blood of the Covenant , and make the Offering of the Cross a meer fiction of the brain ; — For we have a reverent esteem of both . Also we do not deny the Resurrection , as falsly we are accused . There are many more Falshoods in his Book , which are teadious to repeat ; but the falsness of these Charges against us , will more appear in the sequel . The Light of CHRIST within , and its Sufficiencie . THe Light within which we the Suffering dispised People of God called Quakers , do bear witness to , is that principle of Life and Righteousness in man , to which the Scriptures of Truth do amply testifie ; — and it hath proved as a burthensome stone to all such empty and carnal professors of the times that have set themselves against it , and opposed it , and many have been confounded and broken to pieces by it , who have made warr with it ; for it is the Light of Christ , — that comes from the eternal Word , that we own and testifie of ; — and that Life that was in him was the Light of men ; — And this we do own and confess to , as a fundamental principle of our Faith , and the binding , uniting principle , or the thing upon which all the rest hang ( and even this Light within ) as W. Burnet the Baptist saith , who hath undertaken to discover and overthrow this principle , as held by the Quakers , which is a task too hard for him , & that which none of his Brethren ( nor others far wiser than himself ) could ever do : But herein his ignorance of the true Christ and his Light in man , and his gross errors & contradictions , as also his peevishness and envy against an innocent people , to render them odious , will evidently appear to the impartial and unbyassed Reader . — And now our principle of the Light within being true , the rest must needs be true that depend upon it , and this will be proved and appear in the following Answer to this our Antagonist , who often over , hath in scorn and derision against our principle of the Light within , called it the Quakers Christ — whereas it is the Light of the true Christ , and no other , that we own and profess . And first , he accuseth George Fox the younger , for being the mouth of his Saviour , or his representative , in his first and second page , in these words , viz. You have in your imaginations put me afar off , and will not owne me the Light , the Life in you — because my appearance is and hath been to make manifest sin and evil , and to check and reprove for it , and to call you out of it ; — I the Light will overturn Kingdoms , Nations , and Gathered-Churches , which will not own me the Light in them , to guide and lead them — I will make you know that I the Light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world , that all through me should believe , am the true Eternal God — thus far G.F. Now VV. B. bids George give him leave to tell him he is not bound to believe what he hath writ , either to come from God , or to be agreeable to the Word or Will of God , but the contrary , a meer delusion of Satan , and a stratagem of the enemy of mankind , fomented to draw away the hearts of the simple from the simplicity of the Gospel ; — for this is a Gospel that neither the Prophets , nor the Apostles , nor Christ ever preached , and a path-way they were strangers to , saith he . In reply to which , I shall take leave to tell VV. Burnet that his unbelief touching the Light within , and his charge of meer delusion of Satan , against what is writ for it before , is no ground for us to believe him , nor any reason or proof to confute us , or our principle of the Light within , but also a wrong to the Prophets , Apostles , and Christ , to say they never preached it , or that it 's a path-way they were strangers to ; for darkness was not their way . And G. Fox hath truly represented and testified unto the Light and Life in men , which is Christ's Light and Life ; and that this true Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world . This is Scripture-language . See John 1.4 , 9. which is so ignorantly opposed and cavelled at by an unbeliever . And this Life , which is the Light of men , or Light of Christ in every man , doth truly both repres●nt and manifest Christ the giver of it ( and he speaks and operates by it ) to them that believe in it , as he exhorted : — in this they receive him , and so power to become the Sons of God. But then , in stead of a proof further to confute us , This VV. B. gives us a Challenge in these words , viz. I would challenge any one of them to shew me that Text in Scripture where any of God's Worthies directed people to turn to a Light within , and obey the Light within , to expect salvation — This is altogether contrary to the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles — John exhorts his followers to believe in him that should come after him , and not a Christ that should come into them : the Apostle preached Christ to the Jews , whom they by wicked hands had crucified & slain ; Paul preached a Christ made of a Woman , and not a Christ in them , that God will redeem the World by — Reply . Because this our opposer is so ignorant of the Scriptures , and of the Light and Power of God which saveth ; I may Answer his Challenge , and inform him , that the tendency and drift of all the preaching and directions of the holy men of God , Christ and the Apostles , was to turn people from darkness to the Light , to the knowledge of God and Christ ; which is spiritual , and therefore inwardly and spiritually to be received and revealed : for that which may be known of God , who is Light , is manifest within , Rom. 1. And Paul said , God who commanded the Light to shine out of darkness , hath shined in our hearts , to give us the Light of the knowledge of the Glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus , 2 Cor. 4. And Christ exhorted to beleive in the Light , that they might be the Children of the Light. And was not that in them which did beget them to God , — and bring them to be his Children ? And did not Christ say , he that is with you shall be in you ? and I in them and they in me , Joh. 17. And this appearance without in the flesh , and coming after John Baptist , and being slain by wicked hands , as touching the flesh , doth not destroy nor make void the doctrine of his spiritual appearance in his People , no more then his coming after John did his being before him in Spirit ; for John said , he that cometh after me is preferred before me , for he was before me : mark , he was before John 1 Joh. 1.13 . though not in the flesh — or body in which he was crucified ; — but being quickned by the Spirit , thereby he went and preached unto the spirits in Prison ; and was not this preaching spiritual , and directed to Spirit , Life , and Light within , which opened the eyes of the understandings to see the power of God in Christ the Light , even the same power that raised up Jesus ? — And was not the Word within a Light which both Moses and the Apostles directed to ? and the Spirit or Anointing within to teach — lead into all truth , and save from sin and death , which has reigned in people ? And what is Redemption but a freeing from the servitude of sin ? and it is fulfilled in every true Believer by Christ , who is the power of God , who is made unto us Wisdom , Righteousness , Sanctification and Redemption ; and all these are inwardly experienced by such as know that God hath wrought all their works in them : And therefore for W. Burnet to deny that Christ in them to redeem , is his gross error and ignorance , and contradiction to the Apostles Doctrine — as also how appearently does he contradict himself , when he grants that the fruits and effects of our Justification doth shew it self within and without ? And surely then the cause thereof must be known within , Christ within , the Spirit that Sanctifies and Justifies within — God who works all our works in us , Isa. 26.12 . dwels in his people , 2 Cor. 6. Now if Christ be to be known within , then that which reveals him , and may be known of God is within ; there must be an eye , or else no seeing — and if it be blind or vailed , it must be opened by that which makes manifest things that are reproved , which is Light — But now as to Christs being in every man : p. 4. that 's not our affirmation nor words , but that there is a Light of Christ in every man — even in the Rebellious , — to leave them without excuse . And what T. Tayler has said in that case , is true , and will stand over the head of this our ignorant opposer , who hath carped at this expression of the word in the heart , and the Light shining in man , yea , in every man , as being a present help against sin , — which is neither a marring of his work , nor any extenuation of the glory of the true Christ , nor any falshood ( as it is very ignorantly charged : ) for the Word in the heart is to be obeyed , it saves the soul ; the Light shining in the heart , gives the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ : Therefore 't is helpful against sin ; 1. in that it saves from it ; 2. in that it leads such as be kept in it , to the Glory which is immortal , and leaves them that rebel against the Light , without excuse ; which if it had not sufficiency , and a saving property in it , it could not ; for otherwise its insufficiency therein would be ground of excuse . And as touching the Word which is nigh IN the heart ; and wherewith shall a young-man cleanse his way , Psal. 119. W.B. his perswasion is , that neither of those Scriptures refer to Christ , but to the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament , which is called both the Word of God and of Christ , he sayes . — To which I reply , — This Baptists ignorance and absurdity in this plainly appears , — touching both the Word that cleanseth , and the Scriptures which are the Writings that contain many Words of Truth ( in the plural ) whereas the Word which clenseth and sanctifieth , Joh. 17. is but one , which also is both a discerner of the thoughts , and powerful in the operation . Also , when David directed to the Word which was a light unto his paths , much of the Old Testament was not given forth or written ; and to be sure , not the New : And when the Apostle directed to the Word of Faith , which was nigh in the heart , to obey it ; this could not be the Scriptures or Writings of the New-Testament , for he was then but a writing part of them , and several other Epistles were unwritten , neither were they bound up into one Volumn till many years after ; besides , many have corrupted the Scriptures : but the Word which sanctifies and redeems , is the Incorruptible Seed which lives and abides for ever ; And is not that Seed or Word , Christ ? And how comes any to know , and rightly to understand the Scriptures but by the Spirit of God ? for it 's granted , p. 4. That the Law of God is made applicable to us by the Spirit of God — [ So then men are to be directed to the Spirit of God within , which convinceth the world ] but in contradiction to himself he saith , Paul's knowledge of sin came by the Law , not by the Light within . — Surely not by the Law , without the Light within , if by the Spirit of God it be applicable to us as before : for it was not the Law outward , as it was in the letter of it ▪ that convinced Paul , for he had that before when a Persecuter , but as he received the Commandment within by the Spirit and Power of God , or his Light within — he saw sin exceeding sinful . But further , in flat contradiction to his opposing the Light within ( or the Quakers Christ , as he scornfully stiles it ) he confesseth That the Grace of God received in the work of Regeneration and Reconciliation , doth so principle the heart with an enmity to sin , and begets an hatred to it , and love to Righteousness , 1 Thess. 1.5 , 6 , 7. so that it is from the Principle within , together with the observation of the Rule without , that the soul is made to gather Sanctity and Holiness , he saith . Answ. Then the Grace within , which works such a good effect in the soul , must needs be saving , for that it removes the sin , which is the cause of condemnation , and works sanctity and holiness , through which is acceptance with the Lord ; and why then is the Quakers Christ within so much despised and scorned , in many places throughout his Book ? And as for the Word , together with the Spirit , cleansing and sanctifying — The Word and Spirit are one , and he that hath the Word of God abiding in him , hath the Spirit of God in him ; and this with its blessed effects we certainly know , and therefore cannot slight the Scriptures of Truth , or Words of God therein , which he calls the written Words , because they proceeded from the Spirit . And whereas he would not give any ground of jealousie that he should judge that the written word and spirit in any man , as abstracted from Christ , in the titest and most uniform obedience , doth cleanse , or that our obedience is any cause either of Justification or Sanctification . Answ. If this our Opposer deems that the Spirit in any is abstracted from Christ , and that any obey the Spirit without Christ ; It 's none of our belief , for they are not divided ; and we know that there is no condemnation to them that walk after the Spirit , for they are in Christ , and have life in the Son of God. 2. Whereas our obedience to the Spirit is denyed , as being any cause either of our Justification or Sanctification . This is a denying of the Apostles Doctrine , and is repugnant to the spiritual-obedience , which is both acceptable to God ; and through the Spirit , and the obedience of the Spirit , the true Believers mortified the deeds of the flesh , and purified their souls , Rom. 8.13 . 1 Pet. 1.22 . Besides , the obedience and works of the living Faith ( which is not a self-righteousness ) are attended with Justification , and some cause thereof ; for was not Abraham justified by works when he offered up Isaac ? Jam. 2.21 . And the Saints were sanctified and justified by the Spirit of God , 1 Cor. 6.11 . But then if our obedience in this case must be wholly excluded , as not any cause either of Justification or Sanctification , how comes the suffering and Blood of Christ so often to be tendred and applied upon believing ? Is believing no part of the creatures obedience ? What ignorance and contradiction is in this W. Burnet's Religion — what sayes he to this ? see how he comes off in the following words . Bapt. I do believe that our Justification comes in by no other way or means , or name under Heaven , but by Jesus Christ ( which is so far true , But further he adds ) and that by shedding of that Blood , and offering of that Sacrifice upon the Cross , Heb. 9.22 . 1 Pet. 1.19 . and that our Justification is the real cause of our Sanctification . Answ. If so , and that our obedience be not any cause thereof , ( as before ) then are all men in a justified state for whom he died ; and he was offered and dyed for all ( as is confessed by this our Opposer , and others of them ) from which state men's not obeying ( or disobeying ) can be no hindrance , if their obedience contribute nothing to it , or be no cause of either Justification or Sanctification ; so their believing or not believing can neither further nor hinder by this account . But then if it should be denyed that all men are justified by the sufferings and blood of Christ without : I ask , Why are not all ? It 's answered readily , Because all do not believe : Then it 's because they do not obey . But what if they do not , if their obedience of the Spirit or Light within be no cause of their Sanctification or Justification , are they not therefore justified ? but then whence is this power of believing and obedience derived if not from the Light and Spirit of Christ within ? but as to Justification being laid one while upon the name of Jesus , another while upon the shedding of that Blood without , another while by the Offering or Sacrifice upon the Cross : What confusion is here ! and how is this man put to it to patch up his own principles ! Christ's name is Everlasting , it is called The Word of God , who by one Offering hath for ever perfected them that are sanctified . Where doth the Scripture say , that Justification is the real cause of Sanctification ? or that men are justified in an unsanctified or disobedient state ? and if some be justified in that state only by the Offering and Blood of Christ without , as is supposed , and not all that are in the same state ? does not this render God partial and unjust , if he withhold that from men which is both merited and purchased for them ? as these our Opposers affirm , whilst their obedience is so little set by or esteemed , that it 's deemed no cause of either Justification or Sanctification . — But then , as to the shedding of Christ's Blood without , which so much stress is laid upon ; whose work was that , but a wicked mans after he was put to death ? and where is that Blood ? is it in being , yea or nay ? or , did it sink into the ground and corrupt , as some of you have confessed ; and in P. 40. that Blood that was shed is not in being , saith W. B. How then does it cleanse , sanctifie , justifie , redeem , save &c. as he would have us beleive ? whereas in that 1 Pet. 1. cited by this our opposer , it s said , we are not redeemed by corruptible things , but by the precious Blood of Christ : Therefore that Blood which redeems is in being and not corruptible no more then his Flesh , that saw no corruption , but bears record with the Spirit — But this is a mystery vailed from all such carnal contenders , as carnally look upon things according to the outward appearance and no further ; Nor can they in that state see thorow the Vail unto the heavenly things themselves , nor unto the perfect Tabernacle , which Jesus Christ is the High-Priest and Minister of . And another Testimony upon which W. Burnet scoffs and carps against the Light within , is Humph. Smiths , viz. That there is no other rule , or means , or name by which a man shall ever come to walk with God , but that which is manifest of God , even the Light of the Son of God , the Light of him who saith , I am the Light , &c. But how does W. B. assay to confute this ? for it is a truth that he does not answer , but scornfully sayes , p. 5. viz. You may see the Quakers Christ is manifest to be in the World , in the Heart , in that sence ; they preach that he is come in the flesh — but not that he was flesh , or that the flesh taken in the Womb of the Virgin was Christ — but that Christ was in that body , or in the World. — Rep. 1. As to man's coming to walke with God , we know it is by the Light of Christ within ; for , if we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness , we lie - and do not the truth , 1 Joh. 1.6 . therefore it is by walking in the Light that fellowship with God is attained to . And as to Christ's coming in the flesh , we do confess according to the Scriptures ( and even in that particular body prepared for him in the Womb of the Virgin ) which we do not find that you Baptists do clearly confess to , whilst you oppose us , for confessing his coming in the flesh , or for not saying with you , that the flesh and body Christ took upon him was Christ , — which is all one as to say that Christ took upon him Christ , which were to make two Christs ; whereas every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh , is not of God , but is the spirit of Antichrist , 1 Joh. 4. It is not Jesus Christ come in Jesus Christ. Thus you make your selves ridiculous by carping at the Truth , and cavalling against Christ's Light which the Quakers own . — And as to our laying the stress of Salvation upon our obedience to the Light within . Answ. Christ is the Author of Salvation to as many as obey him , who is the true Light that enlightens every man , and in his Light he is to be followed and obeyed ; and therein we lay the stress of mans duty in obeying the Light of Christ within , and his Salvation in the Light or Grace which appears to all men . And as to Christ's coming in the Clouds of Heaven : his coming W. B. represents as the lightening out of the East to the West , that he is sure a man may see , without turning his eye within himself , he saith . Answ. His coming will be terrible to you that deny his Light within ; yet we confess the coming of Christ is in the Clouds , and is as the Lightning , though he is yet clouded from many . As the Cloud ( at his Assention ) received him out of their sight , who stood gazing ; so all the gazers abroad from the Light within , may read their figure , even the Cloud . But Steven , when he was full of the Holy Ghost , saw Heaven open , and the Son of man on the right Hand of God. This Holy Ghost was the ground of his so seeing the Son of Man ; surely he did not see God , nor his right Hand with Carnal Eyes . And Christ said , There are those that stand by that shall not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom , or the Kingdom of God come with Power , Mat. 16.28 . Mark 9.1 . Neither Christ , nor the Holy Men of God said , as this Baptist doth , That neither God , Christ , or the Spirit , or any thing capable to save , is to be found in any unregenerate man , to which he may turn for Salvation . How false and gross is this ! Is God to be confined , or the holy One to be limited , whose presence fills Heaven and Earth , and who filleth all things ? And did not Christ direct to the Kingdom of Heaven within , Luke 17. and to believe in the Light , that they might be made the Children of the Light ? So that they had the Light before they were born of it , and it shone in their hearts ; but and if not any unregenerate man hath any thing in him that 's saving ; by this , not any of Gods Children , till they were his Children , had the Light in them : How came they then to be convinced and begotten to God ? Where was the Light in the Order of Gods Work in the Soul before it was effected , if not at work in them ? But to his own Contradiction , p. 8. he confesses , That the Law was accompanied with the Spirit in that regenerating Work. — Then it was in man. And as to that Story and Accusation against Ja. Naylor , we never understood that he professed himself to be Christ , neither in his examination before the Magistrates , nor before ; but that Christ was in him ; so that he in the Story is wronged therein , which savours of meer malice and envy in this Baptist , to render us odious and obnoxious in the sight of our Enemies : howbeit , wherein J. N's weakness was either in suffering , or not reproving the madness of those that were with him in Prison , therein we never justified him nor them , but testified against them ; and when he became sensible of his loss , it became matter of great trouble and sorrow to him , and he openly judged himself , and through repentance found mercy , by all which the truth and uprightness of our way , so much villified and struck at by this Baptist , was justified , and he found to be unjust in upbraiding us with that which we never owned ; and in that hath done , as neither he nor his Brethren would be done by ; neither is it reasonable to judge and condemn Principles , either from the defect or abuse of any persons professing them . But to the matter before , it 's confessed from Rom. 7. That the Commandment being brought home with Authority , and accompanied with the Spirit ; and he seeing himself a dead man , he was forced to fly from his legal Obedience to the Righteousness of Christ ; therefore the Spirit is alive because of Righteousness , &c. — By all which 't is confessed , 1. That it 's the Spirit of Christ manifested within makes the Law of force . 2. Which brings a man to see himself , and his own works . 3. Brings him to Christs Righteousness for refuge . And this Spirit is that which the Quakers direct to , that people may begin in it , and live in it , to see the work of Regeneration , and of Righteousness , thereby wrought in them ; and this is that Spirit which reproves the World of sin , even the unbelieving World for their unbelief in Christ : So that here our Opposer , to his own confutation , hath confessed to the Quakers Christ , ( as in scorn he often terms him ) as he , without whom neither true Conviction nor Regeneration is wrought , nor yet Christ's Righteousness received for a refuge : but what he means by that Righteousness , will further appear . And now this Baptist having undertaken to shew what that Light is in every man that convinces of sin , unto which the Quakers exhort men to turn ; by which he hath confessed a convincing Light in every man ; but saith , It 's neither God , Christ , nor the Spirit ; His proof is , Ephes. 2.11 , 12. touching the Gentiles being Aliens , Strangers , without God in the World , &c. Reply . He was in the World , and the World was made by him , and the World knew him not , John 1.10 . These being Aliens and Strangers from the Covenant of Promise , and walking according to the course of this World , in that sence they were said to be without Christ , and without God in the World , their understandings being darkned , and their minds alienated ; but it does not follow that they had none of Christs Light in them , or that the Spirit did not reprove them , they being in the World , for the Spirit reproves the World of sin ; surely it would be a blind inference , to say , That neither God nor his Spirit were in the World , because they were without God in the World , and sometimes afar off ; whereas his Presence fills Heaven and Earth ; and from his Presence & Spirit , Hell cannot hide , nor the deeps cover , though God beholds all the wicked a far off , and they are without him as to any living sense , union or injoyment ; their minds being estranged from his Light in them , which in that state appears or shines in darkness , though it comprehends not the Light ; and these are those that rebel against the Light , that know not its wayes , because they abide not in its paths , Job 24.13 . — and that say to the Almighty , Depart from us , we desire not the knowledge of thy wayes , Job 21.14 . wherefore the Almighty is nigh unto them , convicting and striving with them by his Spirit , though it shall not alwayes strive with man ; so that they may be said to be both without God , and without Light , as to the true knowledge and possession , and yet have both nigh to them , even reaching their Consciences . Bapt. Those were , in Eph. 2. without God and Christ in the world , what then can such turn to within for Life and Salvation ? Answ. To the Light of Christ , wherewith every man 's inlightned ; and the reproofes of the Spirit of Truth , which reproves the world of sin , that they may know the true God , and his Son , which is Life Eternal . Bapt. The cause of acceptance is what God hath done for man ; and not mans unspotted Life that doth perform his obedience , but Christ becoming obedient to the Father for man. Answ. The unspotted Life is an effect of God's work in reconciling man in Christ ▪ and this is acceptable to God , which the spotted corrupt life is not . Neither will your applying Christ's obedience , render you in your spotted lives and sins acceptable or justified ; for he came in the likeness of sinful flesh , that he might condemn sin in the flesh , that the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in them that walk not after the flesh but after the spirit . Mark ! within is the fulfilling and effect of Christ's obedience , Rom. 8. Again , for W.B. to argue , that because the Saints were in darkness in the time of their unregenerate state , that therefore no man can be said to have either God , Christ or the Spirit in him in that state . This argument is fallacious ; for he might as well argue that the light cannot shine in darkness : whereas a man may have the Light in him when he i● not in it , or walks not in the Spirit : and if he should say , that God or his presence is not in the world , because the world knows him not , but is in darkness , and in that sence without God ; this were absurd and fallacious , of the nature of his argument . Bapt. To what then shall such turn within for Light , that have there nothing but darkness ? Answ. This contradicts his former confessing , that Light is in every man that doth convince of sin , which is something besides darkness . But there are those that put darkness for light , and he hath herein done no less to his own confutation ; and surely that light in every man that convinceth of sin , is worth the turning to ; to lead the mind out of sin . Bapt. The fourth proof , Esay 8.20 . From this may be gathered that those that are not principled with the knowledg of the Law of God , and testimony of Christ , but contrary thereto do exhort , are in the dark and blind , without any light in them , they have no light in them if that be so : there be a people that have no light , such have neither Father , Son nor Spirit in them ; P. 9. Answ. That of Isa. 8.20 . No light , should be no morning , as in the Hebrew , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Shachar , i. e. Aurora : but there is a light shining in darkness ; Before the day dawn , and day-star arise , or the morning appear in them . But how has this man flatly contradicted himself ! whilst in other places he ha's confessed to a convincing light in every man that doth reprove him for sin , and by which a wicked man , upon sins commiting , receiveth checks from ; see Pag. 8 , 16. & tells us of the Light of Nature , Creation-Light , Spirit , that God hath plac'd in man , every man by nature having the Law plac'd in his heart , viz. the Ten Commandments , that is to say , in the substance of them . Thus far he hath in plain words confessed to a Light in every man , though other whiles he affirms they have no Light , no not any Light in them ; Who know not , but act contrary to the Law of God. — And thus the Reader may see how he has given a deadly blow to his own evil cause , against the Light : for might not I as well argue against him , that if some , have not any Light in them , then no convincing Light ? and how then is the Law and substance of the Ten Commandements in every man ? But then on the other hand , if the substance of that Law , or those Commandments , be in every man , then this is not natural , but Spiritual ; the Law is Spiritual , as writen in the heart , and the substance of this Law enjoyns to love the Lord God with all the heart and soul , and thy neighbour as thy self ; which Christ said to the Lawyer , This do , and thou shalt live , after he had asked him , what he should do to inherit eternal life ? Luke 10.25 , 26 , 27 , 28. Now that Light which leads to eternal Life , must needs be the Light of Christ saving ; and this is in every man , which teacheth so to love God ( as is confessed ) that life eternal may be inherited , which to say is the light of nature , an uncertain guide ( as the titles of his pages ) and to scorn it as the Quakers Christ — this shews the great ignorance and folly of this our opposer , and his gross and apparant contradictions ; and it is not his scornfully saying over and over , thus you may see the Quakers Christ , that can confute us , or destroy our Christ , who is Gods Christ. Bap. It would be a vain and fond saying , to say , when the natural Sun is hid under a Cloud , or the darkness of the night , therefore there is no Sun there ; but these have none neither shining nor hid in them : To what should such turn to within then for Life and Salvation ? Answ. Yes there is some Light hid in men who are dark — By the same reason as before , the Light of Christ may be where it is clouded and vailed with darkness , and it doth for a time shine in darkness , and is there to be turned to within and taken heed unto till the day dawn ; So to say they have none shining nor hid in them , is a contradiction to the former saying , that every man hath a Light convincing of sin , and the substance or body of the moral Law in him , which enjoyns truely to love the Lord God , &c. and the Law within is Light. Again , to that of Joh. 14.17 . The world not receiving the Comforter , or their rejecting the Spirit , is no reason to prove they are not enlightened by it , but reather the contrary ; for the Spirit reproves the world of sin ; and to them that resisted and acted despite against the holy Spirit , it was given , and did check them , or else how could they be said to resist it ? and that the Spirit shall not alwaies strive with man ? Bapt. Again , In answer to that of Joh. 1.9 . That was the true Light that lightens every man that cometh into the world , the Baptist gives this meaning , viz. that it was the Word before he took flesh , which was God , and this Word [ Co-Creator with the Father ] so he was the Light of the World , and lighteth every man — for the Light of Reason and the Light of Nature — P. 10. Answ. First , It is to be noted , that a Light of Reason , &c. is hence confessed to be in every man , which still contradicts his saying before , of some having not any Light in them , and nothing but darkness in them . 2. If , as God , he lighteth every man , this Light is spiritual , for he is a Spirit who doth enlighten every man : In him was Life , and the Life was the Light of men , Joh. 1.4 . so that 't is as absurd to say , that God's Light that immediatly shines from him is natural or created , as to say the light of the natural Sun is spiritual and increated : for it 's said of the Word , That was the true Light that enlightens every man coming into the World , which he might as well say is natural in the fountain as in the stream . — 3. To tell of the word God , Co-Creator with the Father , is all one as to tell of God being Co-Creator with God , if the Father be God ; and this is to make two Gods , two Creators , &c. for God , Co-creator with the Father , plainly implyes two . Thus Nonsence , Confusion , and Blasphemy is heapt up against the Light within , to lessen , misrepresent and undervalue it , and the Doctrine of it , so truely held forth by us . How greatly are the Baptists herein repugnant to the Testimony of John Baptist , and the Apostle John — touching Christ the Light ! Bapt. The spirit in man , and obedience to it , is not the cause of mans union with God ; But the reception of the spirit and obedience , the effects of mans union . Answ. Which is all one as to say , that a man hath union with God before he either receives or obeyes his Spirit , which is whilst he walks in darkness , which he that so sayes doth lie , 1 Joh. 1.6 . And then what is the ground and cause of mans union with God ? if obedience and reception of the Spirit be not the cause but the effect of that union , is not the true begining in the Spirit ? and is there not obedience to it , in beleiving in it before man's new creation in Christ be effected ? the spiritually minded do know . Again , If the Kingdom of God was in the Pharisees , Luk. 17. as is granted ( they being wicked ) it 's in every man in some degree , contrary to his assertion , P. 12. But he tels us these words [ within you ] may be read , in the midst of you , in the Margent of the Bible . So here we must be accused from the margent , as being in error , for holding what is in the chapter , which is truth according to other Scriptures . Besides his telling of Christ and the Gospel being taken out of them , implyeth they were sometimes in them , and as to receiving the Kingdom as a little Child , from whence he denies it to be in every man ; that is no good consequence : for the Pharisees were neither converted , nor yet in the state of a little child , when Christ said , the Kingdom of God is within you , Luke 17.21 . for it may be in men , though but as a grain of Mustard seed , when they are not in it . Bapt. Though Christ be in his Saints , he is not there as a Saviour . Answ. That 's false doctrine : for he saves them from sin , and is manifest in them for that end , to destroy the Devil's work : and elsewhere it 's confessed , that if Christ be in you , the body is dead because of sin . But farther he adds as followeth . Bapt. Or a Light to be turned to , for to guide them in their obedience God-wards without the Scriptures ; But as a Comforter by the application of his promise . Answ. Herein is the sufficiency of Christ and his Light to guide , opposed and denyed , without the Scriptures , by this our opposer ; as if the Scriptures must needs help Christ the Light or Spirit ; and as if the guidance of the Spirit now were not to be esteemed of as Scripture , inspired as well as the Scriptures were , when given by inspiration to the men of God of old : Or when it 's confessed that Christ within is the Comforter , he means by the application of promises without , which is still to detract and diminish from the Spirits sufficiency both in guiding and comforting , though it leads into all truth , and brings to know the right use of the Scriptures , which we do own , in preferring the Spirit , and owning its guidance to lead into the knowledge of the truths in Scripture . Bapt. As to the essence or being of Christ , it is at the Right hand of God in the Heavens , which must retain him ( nay which must receive him ) Acts 3.21 , 22. But this the Quakers scoff at , a Christ above the Clouds , or at a distance from them . Answ. What does this talk and reflection upon us tend to , but to exclude both the being of Christ , and the Heavenly state out of his people , and to confine both God , Christ , Gods right hand of power , and being , all remote from his people , and then how is their conversation in Heaven ? how are they in the Fathers right hand ? and what Heaven is it ? and where are the heavenly places the Saints were in , which Christ and the Son of man was in when upon earth ? was it a natural Heaven or a spiritual ? and is not that the Heaven of Heavens , or the chief Heaven , which is most near to God , most spiritual ? But unto whom shall I speak wisdom , or utter knowledge ? they that shut their eyes in prejudice will not be made to see or understand . We know and confess that Christ ascended far above all Heavens , and yet fills all things , and Gods presence fills Heaven and Earth — But in answer to the question , How then is Christ in his people ? Bapt. 1. By the beams of his light ; 2 dly . by his holy Spirit . Rep. Then by this the holy Spirit in his people is Christ in his people . But then what nonsence is it to say , that Christ , or the Spirit in his people , is but the beams of Christ , or his Light , out of his people , above the Clouds , at a distance ? where this man saies his essence is , as if that the Spirit within were nothing of Christs essence ; what ignorance is this ! whereas the Apostle said , the Lord is that Spirit , and the last Adam was made a quickning Spirit , 1 Cor. 15.45 . 2 Cor. 3.17 . And I ask , if Spirit be not the Essence of that which is spiritual ? and if Christ in his People be the Holy Spirit in them ? Does not this contradict much of his Book against us ? For is not he often denyed to be Christ , as he is the Spirit , the Word , the Anointing , &c. by such of you that know him not , but would exclude him out of his people , at a great distance , you know not where ? And as touching those that were sensual , having not the Spirit , from which he seems to argue against us . Such were said to turn the Grace of God into wantonness , denying the only Lord God ; and such acted despite against the Spirit of Grace , and therefore their minds were turned from the Light and Spirit , which at sometimes appeared in them to convince them ; or else how could they thus abuse and despise the Grace and Spirit of it , if 't was never in them ? They were said , Not to have the Spirit , when they lived not in it . But their minds were turned from it , and they became sensual ; that true feeling , sense , and understanding was lost , and yet whither could they go or flee from the Spirit , if it pursued them to their condemnation , seeing that if they digged down into Hell , God was there to torment ? Bapt. With the heart man believeth , by the help of the Spirit , through the Scriptures , and not by turning to the Light within . But saith the Quaker , Thou must hear the checks of Christ in thy Conscience , &c. Answ. Here turning to the Light within , and the checks of Christ in Conscience , is made very light of , and shut out , and yet the help of the Spirit is granted ; and is not the Spirit within , and the Light of it within ? And must not people turn within for its help ? What confusion and silly work has he here made against the Light within ? Again , the Scriptures he calls , The Law and Testimony , the Word of God , the Gospel ; his proof is , Deut. 30.11 , 12 , 13 , 14. Whereas the Scriptures signifies Writings , and much of them was then unwritten ; and when the Law and the Testimony was spoken of , Isa. 8. The Scriptures of the New Testament were not then in being ; but the Commandment and Word was nigh in the heart , and the Law is Light , and the Testimony of Jesus the Spirit of Prophesie , and this was before the Writings ; but in contradiction to himself , this man saith , 'T is true , Christ is called the Word . But then he adds , So is the Scripture , and every Text therein . So here 's no distinction between Christ and the Writing , as if they were all one : But then he further adds , They may as well say , because Christ is called the Son of God , that therefore every Believer is not a Son of God. Now see how his Instance holds with his Assertion , That every Text is a Word of God ; but many Texts are many words , and therefore those many words are the Word , which is but one ; as if he should argue , That every Believer is a Son of God , & therefore all Believers ( which are many Sons ) are the Son of God , ( which is but one Son ) . Where learn'd he this Logick ? Surely he might have learned a difference between Singular and Plural in his Accidence . But the Word of God is peculiarly spoken of , ( his Name is called , The Word of God , Rev. 19.13 . ) and this lives and abides for ever , though we do own that words that God spake are contained in the Scriptures , so what they call the Word , we say the same ; and what they call Words , Sayings , &c. we do also . And Peter's preaching to Cornelius , and those with him , was not against the Light within , ( but did tend to establish them therein , contrary to what is implyed , pag. 15. ) How received they the Holy Ghost ? and how and from what did they work Righteousness , fear God , and receive acceptance with God ? which Peter did not minister to draw them from , but rather to confirm them in . And did not he herein the more exalt that Light which led them to fear God , & c ? And to his saying , Bapt. That this Faith becometh God's evidence , or witness , as to what Christ hath done for us , Heb. 11.1 . Answ. To this , I say , That in that place it 's said , Faith is the substance of things hoped for , the evidence of things not seen . Now things hoped for are to come ; but were Christs outward sufferings to come , and not seen ? Yea , Faith does evidence the effects of Christs obedience , and of his sufferings , in every one that is a partaker of a conformity to his Death , and of the power of his Resurrection . — Again , if the Spirit 's reproving the World of Sin , be to be understood of the Doctrine of the Saints , as is supposed pag. 15. and that there be not a Light of the Spirit in the World , before they have that Doctrine preached to them outwardly : What do the Saints preach to in people ? what is it that can receive and close with their Doctrine in them ? And what is it in the Conscience that they are a good savour to ? And if there be many of the Heathen that never heard their Doctrine outwardly , nor read the Scriptures , as in pag. 16. What must become of them ? Must they be condemned , and yet never have a Spiritual Light in them ? How then are they without excuse ? — But of this ignorance and narrow spirit we have seen sufficient among such opposers of the Light of Christ , in their denying its free extent to all . Bapt. And now the Baptist saith , Having shewed that the Light that is in every man , is neither God , Christ , nor the Spirit ; he shall endeavour to make it his next work to shew you what Light that is in every man that doth convince and reprove him for sin , or that a wicked man upon sins committing receiveth checks from ; that is , Conscience , there is a Conscience in every man that is at work at one time or other , accusing or excusing , Rom. 2.15 . Answ. By this he hath evidently confuted and contradicted himself . 1. In confessing a Light in every man , convincing and reproving for sin , contrary to his telling us of no Light , not any Light , nothing but darkness , in them that speak not according to the Word . 2. In his confessing to a Conscience that doth convince , reprove , and check the wicked for sin ; which Conscience in that capacity surely is rightly and truly informed by a true Principle , or Light , because it reproves for sin and evil , and stands against the wicked ; which must needs be when Conscience is convicted , awakened , and quickened , by a supernatural or Divine Principle of Light ; for Conscience defiled , perverted , corrupted , seared , ( for such there is in some ) will not manifest nor reprove sin ; for sin is manifest by the contrary ; as whatsoever makes manifest is Light. 3. Those Gentiles , Rom. 2.15 . whose Conscience also bare witness ; it was to the work or effects of the Law written in their hearts that it did bear witness , see vers . 15 , 16. and that Law was Spiritual , for they had it not in the Letter . 4. This Baptist has confessed , That there is a Principle or Spirit that God hath placed in man , sometimes called the Candle of the Lord , Prov. 20.27 . sometimes called the Spirit of the Understanding , Job 20. which contradicts his denying that the Spirit is in every man ; For , 1. there is a Divine Light , or Spirit which lighteth , kindleth , and quickeneth the Spirit of man , which makes it capable of being the Candle of the Lord , searching , &c. 2. There is a Spirit in man , but the Inspiration of the Almighty giveth understandeth ; and upon whom doth not his Light arise ? But now he asks , Upon what bottom doth Conscience stand , or by what rule doth Conscience act ? And then answers , Bapt. The Conscience doth act variously in the Heathen , and such as have not read Scriptures , nor had the true God and Christ preached to them . Rep. But Conscience did not act contrary to the Law of God in them , spoken of Rom. 2.15 . neither doth it act variously , when quickened , so as to reprove evil as before , how then does it act variously in the Heathen ? Bapt. Answ. p. 17 , 18. Many there be that worship Planets ; many there be amongst the Heathens , and others , that make great Conscience of adoring that which they do attribute the title of a God to . — If a man in Gods Worship never so much err , if he be serious in it , Conscience is quiet , but if there be a faultering , Conscience reflects . Rep. This is in those things wherein they are deceived and captivated in their understandings , and their minds corrupted from the true Light in them , that men are become a Law to themselves in those things wherein they are deceived and misled , which are as so many Vailes , and Mists , and Clouds cast over their understandings , and so their Consciences are defiled ; though Conscience simply considered , whilst mans mind is not brought under those Clouds , Delusions , and Sorceries , it is simply that computure of knowledge and understanding that God has placed in the mind and spirit of man , which is capable of the exercise and guidance of the Divine Light or Spirit ; and as it reproves sin , ( as confessed before ) and bears witness to the Law of God within , which is Light , it doth not act variously as to prompt man in any thing that is sinful , either in things relating to Man , or Worship ; It do's not act nor lead in any idolatrous way or worship for that 's sinful , which they that are led into , it 's commonly by mens traditions that corrupt the simple ( that originally flow from the power of darkness ) and not by the Light within , as many are by corrupt doctrines and traditions perverted & drawn from the Light within , and kept from looking to it , and so in a dark ignorant state : And this is the tendency of your Doctrine , who are warring against the Light within , — as thou W. Burnet hast done , one while telling us , There is not any Light in those that are in the dark ; another while , There is a convincing Light in every man , which is one while Conscience that so convinceth and reproves ; another while , it is , The Light of Nature ; another while , The Law written in the heart ; and then its Creation Light : Another while it is , The Candle of the Lord , the Spirit of the Understanding ; Another while 't is the Substance or Body of the Ten Commandments , pag. 16 , 17. Alas poor ignorant and scornful contender , how pittifully art thou put to it , and how art thou puzled and confounded ; surely the Law of God in the Heart , and the body of the Ten Commandments in the Heathen , does neither lead nor prompt any of them in their idolatrous wayes ; so that in those wayes they are perverted and turned from the Law of God within , which Law is unalterable . Bapt. The Law written in the Heart , in Creation , is the principal ground of Conscience-Conviction , Rom. 2.14 , 15. God in the Creation did so principle the heart of man with Righteousness , and Holiness , and Justice , with the knowledge of himself , having the Counsel or Law of God in the Heart ; that though he lost himself by sin , he did not wholly lose his Creation-Light , there was still a knowledge left in man of God , but not abilities to do good . Answ. And surely this Counsel and Law of God in the Heart , and this knowledge of God left in man , is more then an erring Conscience , or a deluded mind ; for though mans mind may err , so cannot the Law and Knowledge of God left in him . Thus you may see how this our opposer overthrows , and confutes himself and his own cause , and not us nor our Principle , but rather confesses to it , after he has rendered us and it as odious as he can . Besides , as the Law of God is the ground of Conscience-Conviction ; Conscience in that capacity will not allow a man in any evil ; and did not God leave abilities in man to do good , how then did he by his Law in man require good to be done ? And how could he then condemn man for not obeying him , if he hath not given him power to obey ? Does he require impossibilities , and then condemn man for not answering his requirings ? No sure , if he did , it would render him a very hard Master , and what less hath our Opposer done ? But what sayes he further to the matter , what capacity is fallen man in as to light and knowledge within ? Bapt. Every man by Nature having the Law placed in his heart , viz. the Substance of the Ten Commandments , and so much light and understanding left in him , as to know good and evil in some measure ; though they never had the Letter of the Law , yet having the Substance of it , God doth expect an acting accordingly . Answ. If God doth expect an acting , according to his Law which is in man , viz. The substance of the Ten Commandments ; then he expects man should truly love him , and for that end he gives ability , or else he would not require it ; man is not condemned for that he has not afforded him , or is not capable of , for he gives to all men liberally . Bapt. And then whereas W. B. speaks of the Body of this Law , or Light , in the Heathen , that they have an understanding , there is a God , and that worship is due to him , though this God they know not , nor how , or in what form to worship him , for that is revealed by the Scripture , he saith , p. 17. Answ. Yet notwithstanding , in contradiction to himself , he hath confessed The Law of God and substance of the ten Commandements to be in their hearts , to which God expects obedience . Surely that which teacheth men to love the Lord God with all their hearts and souls , teacheth them the substance of true Worship ; and the Law of the Lord is pure converting the soul , yet it 's probable many that have a sense of this Law of God within , and his Worship , may not be in the form of these Baptists , nor come under their form of Water-Baptism ( which such a great stress they lay upon ) and yet be accepted of God , and saved notwithstanding , being baptized by the Spirit . Bapt. There is that light and understanding still left in nature , that there is a God , that there is worship due to him : but the Light in man leaves him short of what the true God is , and what worship is due to him . Answ. The Light that God hath given , in man , doth not only shew that there is a God , and a Worship due — but also leads him to know the true God and his Worship , where it is obeyed , as it did to those Gentiles spoken of in Rom. 1.19 , 20 , 21. when that which might be known of God was manifest in them , which was the ground of their discerning the invisible things of God , even his Eternal Power and Godhead , from the visible Creation ; so as they were left without excuse when they turned from it , and liked not to retain God in their knowledg ; viz. which disobedience and abuse caused their Reprobation and further Apostacy and Idolatry : Rom. 1.27 , 28. surely it would be improper to say they liked not to retain God in their knowledge , if they had a knowledge of God. Bapt. How uncertain a rule or guide is the Light within , or the checks of Conscience for a man to build his Hope or Faith upon ? Ans. Not uncertain to them that have tryed it , and beleived in it as Christ exhorted ; The Spirit that God hath given is certain , the Law of God in every man is certain , the substance of the ten Commandments within ( as is confessed ) is certain ; Conscience when acted by the Light and Law of God within , is not uncertain in it's checks against sin . Bapt. For if that Light that is in man be darkness , or vailed with gross erorrs and so the soul run into strange enormities , how sad will it be for that soul that gives up himself to follow it ? this is the Quakers Principle , not only to look for Salvation from it , but to be led by it . Answ. Surely this is a very sad conclusion against the Light within , and very false [ for he hath confounded erring conscience , light and darkness together , as not making a difference here , in the end of his work : for , first , a Light that convinceth and reproves the wicked of sin , is confessed to be in them : 2ly . A knowledge of God left in man : 3ly . The substance , or body of the ten Commandments : 4thly . Consciences conviction , which the Law of God in the heart is the ground of ; none of which can truly be deemed darkness , though some put light for darkness and darkness for light , as this our opposer hath done . Also to tell of the light in man being darkness , or vailed with gross errors , are two different things ; for the Light being vailed in some , doth not change it from being light in its own essence : And now it wil not be sad for that soul that gives up himself to follow the Light within , which convinces and reproves for sin , and teaches truly to love the Lord God , and to do righteously & justly before all men ; which answers and fulfils the substance of the moral Law , which is confessed to be within men , even in the very heathen , as in p. 17. So that the truth of our Principle touching the Light within , is evidently verified and proved both from the Scriptures of truth , as also from our adversaries own confession : therefore the rest of our Principles which depend upon it must needs be true , the Light of Christ within being the fundamental or most binding , as W.B. has confest : so the less need be said to his frivolous objections against us in other particulars , howbeit some things may be observed touching several passages following . Bapt. Those that have not the Spirit to lead them , if the Scriptures be the Rule , what Rule have they ? Answ. Without the guidance of the Spirit , the right use and end of the Scriptures cannot be known , they are as a Book sealed , only by the Spirit truly opened , as to their not having the Spirit to lead them , that 's but a begging the Question , and contradicts much of what he hath said before ; for how are any said not to have it , but in that they walk not in its way , nor follow its leadings , but rebell against the Spirit , grieve and vex the Holy Spirit ; such are not without it , as to its conviction and reproofs , though not having it as to the true sense and apprehension of it guidances , life , virtue , and glory of its ministration , they being in that which is sensual and devilish . Bapt. God never designed the Spirit to be man's Rule , but to be mans assistant and helper , to walk and build by the rule : the Scripture doth direct him to his duty , pag. 19. Answ. And are not the directions of the Spirit according to the Scriptures ? did not God ever design the Spirit to lead into all Truth ? and if the Spirit doth principle a Soul for his duty , as this our Opposer confesseth ; then the Spirit is sufficient to guide , order , and be a rule to him in his duty ; so that in denying the Spirits sufficiency , he hath denyed Scripture , which testifies of the Spirit , which many may be led by that cannot read the Scriptures ; and to his confessing , That every Believer is as a wise builder , that hath his judgment and skil principled within . By what is the true Believer so principled , if not by the Spirit , or Light of Truth within ? Is it not the Spirit that doth so principle a man for his work , both in praying , hearing , and obedience ? yea , it is confest in the same page , that it is the Spirit ; and doth it follow , that the Spirit of God is not a rule sufficient , or that the Light within must be excluded from trying Doctrines , because the Bereans did search the Scriptures , to see whether these things were so ? whereas they received the Word with all readiness of mind , which implies , that in the main they were satisfied , in that they received the Word with such readiness ; and they searched the Scriptures , which if in any particular thing this may be said , to imply a doubting on their parts , their doubt cannot be any Argument to detract from the Spirits sufficiency , both to inform , satisfie , and guide them into the Truth declared of in the Scriptures ; So that to say , It was by the Scripture without , and not by the Light within : This shews great ignorance thus to exclude the Light ; whereas he should rather have said , as his former words intimate , That it was by the Spirit or Light within , together with the Scriptures , that they were assisted , holpen , principled , and directed : But now it is the man of God who is led by the Spirit , that knows the true use and profit of the Scriptures , 2 Tim. 3.16 . where it is said , All Scripture is given by inspiration , which should be read , All Scripture given by inspiration , [ is ] being added . Now he that receives Scripture by inspiration , knows the right use and profit of it thereby , all which shews the sufficiency of the Spirit , or inspiration of the Almighty , which both gave Scripture and understanding . And as for his pretending to square his work by the Scriptures ; he would make people believe he were very exact in the Scriptures , but we find the contrary , both in his medly , confusion , and darkness brought forth against the Light within ; as also in several things hereafter , as in his saying , Paul , when he reasoned with the unbelieving Jews about Christ , was so far from turning them to the Light within , that he proves his Doctrine wholly by the Scriptures without , p. 20. Answ. If he were far from turning them to the Light within , this would make him oppose his own Commission , which was , to turn men to the Light within , which his proving his Doctrine by the Scripture , is no reason against ; for he was a Minister of the Spirit , and his Ministry tended to bring to the Spirit : in reasoning out of the Scriptures , he reasoned for Christ the Light ; and in proving Christs Suffering and Resurrection , he witnessed unto the Power by which he was raised , and the love and good will of God in sending his Son. But this W. B. in contradiction to himself , sayes , That the Letter of it is written with Ink and Paper , is dead , but the matter contained is spiritual and powerful , when carried home by the Spirit . By which he hath here confessed to the Spirit , or Light within , without which the Letter is but dead . Again it is objected , That Daniel understood by Books , that the captivity of Babylon was near at an end , and not by the Light within , Dan. 9. Answ. This was a particular case touching the number of the years of the desolation of Jerusalem , and not a matter of Salvation , though the knowledge thereof was given to Jeremiah , by the Word of the Lord , that came to him , Jer. 25.12 . And neither Jeremiah nor Daniel did thus exclude the Light within from their understandings , as here it is slighted . But W. B. does not tell us how God gave Daniel knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom , and that Daniel had understanding in all Visions and Dreams , Dan. 1.17 . Nay in his thus slighting the Light within , he hath shewed himself worse than the very Heathen , who did confess that an excellent Spirit was in Daniel , and that Light , and Understanding , and Wisdom , like the wisdom of the Gods was found in him , Dan. 4 8 , 9. & 5.11 , 12 , 14. & 6.3 . And so however , though they mentioned their Gods , yet herein the excellency of the Spirit , Light , Understanding , and Wisdom that was in Daniel they did confess to , and highly esteem , more than W.B. hath done . Again , in his 21 page , touching the Reception of the Spirit , acquitting a man from his obedience to the Scripture . — I ask , who affirms that it doth ? herein he hath but beaten the Air : for we affirm that the Spirit brings to the fulfilling of the Scriptures , and doth not destroy the Truth contained in them ; but whereas he tells of the Scripture being a Rule , and a Weapon to be made use of at all times against Satan , of such as had the same Spirit in as great a measure as the Pen-men of the Scriptures ; and to prove it , saith , our dear Lord was fill'd with the Spirit above measure , yet he had an eye in all his obedience to the Scriptures . Answ. What then was the rule to those Pen-men of the Scriptures in this writing them ? What was the Rule before they writ them , and their Weapon and Defence against Satan ? Was it not the Spirit , the Sword of the Spirit , the Shield of Faith , the Armour of Light , &c. whereby they were defended ? And did our Lord eye the Scriptures for his Rule , in his obedience , that here he is made the proof , who had the Spirit above measure ? Has not this our opposer both undervalued the Light , the Guidance of the Spirit , and Christ himself ? As if they could not square their work right without going out to the Scriptures , whereas Christ ought to be preferred , and in all things to have the preheminence , as is confessed , pag. 21. That the reception of the Spirit is the only means to put a man into a capacity for obedience , and that there is nothing that gives a Soul right to Gospel . Ordinances , but the gift of Christ to us , and his being revealed in us by his Spirit . Thus far W. B. in confutation of himself ; and as one bafled and confounded in his work , is made to confess to the Quakers Principle , contrary to his own intention . And what were these Gospel-Ordinances and Gods Commands , that he sayes , Paul preached and practised in all his life ? Did he practise Water-Baptism all his life time ? Or did he pretend Scripture , or command for it , when Christ sent him not to it ? Was the Scripture herein his Rule , or the Spirit , which he was a Minister of ? Or was the Scripture the Apostles Rule , for denying and opposing Circumcision ; or the guidance of the Holy Ghost , to which it seemed good , and unto them , that no such yoak should lie on the Disciples necks , Acts 15. And now W. B. to prove his false accusation against us , of falling under strong delusions , so as to believe a lie , he asks , or else what makes them to appoint their silent meetings , and to run several miles to them , and sit hours together without speaking a word ? Answ. What proof is this of delusion , or believing a lie , when nothing is spoken but this telling , that we appoint silent Meetings ? Herein is his mistake , for we do not appoint any meetings intentionally to limit them to silence , but singly to wait upon God , either to learn of our High Priest Christ Jesus , or to speak , or exhort , as he requires ; which was the practice of many of Gods People , who knew a time of silence , and a waiting in silence , before they went forth to preach , and did know the teaching of God within to direct them both in silence , and in speaking , Isa. 41.1 . Jer. 8.14 . Ezek. 3.15 , 16. Eccles. 2.7 . Job 2.13 . Luke 24.49 . Acts 1.4 . and this we are witnesses of , who are come to know a subjection to the Power of God , and may not run , nor preach , nor pray in mens will , nor act in a voluntary and feigned humility , like such will-worshippers as can put one another on to praying and preaching , and say , Brother , will you pray ? Brother , will you perform the Duty ? And Brother , I pray do you pray , you are more able and worthy than I , &c. Again we have born a testimony for God in our meeting together , both when we have ministred , and when we have been silent , which has stood a witness against the persecuting spirit , by which many of our Friends have deeply suffered for their Testimony , both by Imprisonments , Banishments , and many to death ; whereas we have not observed that you Baptists will suffer much , who are so ready to creep out , write and cavel against us now in a time of respite and quietness ; which shews the baseness of your spirits , thus to bespatter an innocent People ; and how ignoble such of you are , though there are some few that are of a better spirit than thus to bespatter us , as this peevish W. B. hath done , who I suppose will suffer but little for his Christ , which he has to seek above the Clouds , whilst he opposeth the Light within , which should preserve and bear up through sufferings : But suppose the Baptists Teachers were all so valiant and noble , as that they should all be Prisoners , and confined , must their people therefore not meet , but let their Testimony fall , and give their Enemies the day ? Seeing meeting in Silence is reckoned such a great crime , and yet Meditation is granted to be a Duty , but not in Meetings , but alone . It appears that W. B. hath not a dependency upon the Spirit of Truth within in Meetings , to receive his instruction thence , but he must have his matter compil'd and patcht up aforehand , as his matter seems to imply , like the Priests of the times . And as for his stories and tattles in pag. 23. touching several of our Friends , whereby he goes maliciously to render us odious ; some things therein are falshoods , and others , wherein some of our Friends have been signs to the World , as Solomon Eccles , and others , we have answered over and over heretofore , and the truth of S. E. his Sign hath appeared against the nakedness of such dark Professors and Priests as he witnessed against , and herein has but racked up such stuff as the persecuting Priests have against us ; and yet he confesseth , Esay did go naked for a Sign to Egypt ; yet all the Prophets actions are not for our example to follow , p. 14. To which I say , What then shall be judge in this case ? for here it appears the Scripture is not the rule , contrary to his former assertion . Bapt. Now the Quakers would be so far from directing men to go to the material Temple , that they make it but a vain thing to look to Jerusalem , to the antitype of that Temple , viz. to Jesus Christ , as he was there crucified ; or to that Blood that was there shed for justification , P. 24. Answ. The Quakers see no need of directing men to the Type for the Antitype , viz. neither to the outward Temple , nor yet to Jerusalem , either to Jesus Christ , or his Blood ; knowing that neither the righteousness of Faith , nor the word of it , doth so direct , Rom. 10. And is it the Baptists Doctrine to direct men to the material Temple , and Jeruselem , the Type for the Antitype ? what nonsence and darkness is this ! And where do the Scriptures say , the Blood was there shed for Justification — and that men must be directed to Jerusalem to it ? ( whereas that Blood shed is not in being P. 40. ) but the true Apostle directed them to the Light , ( which is so much opposed by the Baptists ) to walk in the Light for the Blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse them from all sin , 1 Joh. 1. And he dyed for our sins , but rose again for our Justification ; which Resurrection surely was after the shedding the Blood outwardly . But more of this matter hereafter , and of W. B. his ignorance and nonsence about the Blood. — Bapt. They do deny that man Christ , or that God-man that was born in Bethlehem of the Virgin Mary . P. 25. Answ. We never denyed the man Christ , nor that he took upon him flesh , or was born of the Virgin according to the flesh , nor did we ever deny Christ to be the Saviour ; but as for those expressions , God-man , being born of Mary , we do not find them in the Scriptures , nor do we read that Mary was the Mother of God , but in the Popes Canons , Articles , &c. Though W. B. has pretended the Scipture to be his rule , as if he would be exact in squaring his work thereby ; here his work is besides rule . Again he saith , Christ was seen with a carnal eye , and his Voice heard with a carnal eare : P. 25 , 28 , 29. Whereas Christ said , he that seeth me , seeth my Father also : now dare he say , that God is such a visible object as may be seen by a carnal eye ? surely nothing is obvious to the carnal eye but that which is carnal or outward ; but so is not the Invisible : But indeed if the body that Christ took upon him in the Virgin , and which was after crucified , put to death , was God ( for he tells of God-man being born of the Virgin , ) then this would make God visible , and to dye , when that body was put to death ; which were no less then blasphemy — whereas God was manifest in flesh — Christ came in the flesh , 1 Tim. 3. 1 Joh. 4. and so did bear the name Christ as he was in the flesh . Bapt. If that God , Christ , and Spirit , that have their residence in the Heavens above the Clouds , is looked upon by the Quakers to be but an imaginary God & Christ , &c. P. 25. the Christ that is without and in the Heavens &c. P. 26. But whither he now seeth that looketh to another God and Christ , that is not to be found above the Clouds ? P. 27. Answ. That God , Christ , and Spirit , the Quakers own , is no other but the true God and Christ , even that God that cannot be confined , circulated nor limited to a place of residence , seeing the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain him ; and that Christ which ascended up far above al Heavens , that he might fill all things , who is God over all blessed for ever ; And this God , Christ , and the Spirit , the Quakers did not find above the Clouds , where the Baptist imagins , at such a distance , for they never ascended thither , to seek their residence above the Clouds — where the Baptist tells of finding God and Christ , though they were never there themselves to find him ; and it seems they are like to be without both , while they are telling of finding God and Christ above the clouds where they cannot come . But we are sure the righteousness of Faith does not say , Who shall ascend to fetch Christ down from Heaven ? but , the Word is nigh thee ; and we also know , having found him whom our souls love , that he that dwelleth on high , and inhabiteth Eternity , doth also dwell with such as are poor and of a contrite Spirit , and tremble at his Word , though they be scoffed at & derided by such of you Baptists , whose understandings are clouded from the knowledge of the true God and Christ ; whom one while you tell of finding above the clouds in the Heavens without , another while of directing men to Jerusalem , to the Antitype , and to that Blood that was there shed , as W. B. hath done , pag. 24. Yet though we do oppose his imaginations and confusion concerning Christ ; neither his ascension into the Heavens , and also far above all Heavens and Clouds , nor yet his coming the second time without sin to Salvation , do we in the least deny or oppose , knowing in measure the effect of his appearance and coming , to wit , Salvation , as they did of old that in Faith looked for his coming the second time without sin unto Salvation , wherein their Faith and Hope and expectations were not made void , but fulfilled and answered : and as to that 1 Thes. 4.17 . which W. B. brings to prove that Christ shall come in the latter end of the World from Heaven above the Clouds . Now in vers . 15. it 's said , that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. Now I ask , if they did live and remain to a personal coming of Christ in the Clouds yea or nay ? or can it be reasonably thought to be a coming that is not yet , that they lived and remained unto ? and further John in Rev. 1. said , Behold he cometh with Clouds : he also , when he was in the Spirit , saw him that was the first and the last , and in the midst of the seven Golden Candlesticks he saw one like unto the Son of man , whose eyes were as a flame of fire , out of whose mouth went a sharp two-edged Sword , whose Countenance was as the Sun shining in his strength , who laid his right hand vpon John. Now , did John see him with carnal eyes ? or was this coming such as you expect outwardly ? Moreover , Christ said , the Son of man shall come in the Glory of his Father with his Angels , and then he shall reward every man according to his work . Verily I say unto you , there be some standing here which shall not tast of death , till they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom , Math. 16.27 , 28. Luke 9.26 , 27. Now what is that Glory of the Father in which his coming is ? is it visible to the carnal eye ? And when was that coming to be ? is it now to be looked for outwardly ? But farther , we do acknowledge the several comings of Christ according to the Scriptures , both that in the Flesh and that in the Spirit , which is manifest in several degrees , as there is a growing from Glory to Glory : But three comings of Christ [ not only that in the flesh at Jerusalem , and that in the Spirit , but also another coming in the flesh , yet to be expected ] we do not read of , but a second coming without sin unto Salvation , wch in the Apostles dayes was look'd for . Again , that the dead in Christ shall rise first , we own to be an effect of Christs coming , and know that there is a dying in Christ , a being Baptized into his Death , before a coming forth or rising in the likeness of his Resurrection ; and if we be dead with him , we shall also live with him , 2 Tim. 2.11 . and Paul to the Colossians said , For ye are dead , and your life is hid with Christ in God. But now to know these states , what 't is to dye with Christ , to be conformable unto his Death , and to partake of the Power of his Resurrection , these things are hid from that eye and expectation which is carnal , and only known to them that are come to the Mystery of Faith in a pure Conscience , and to know that Power by which the Faith of the operation of God is known , and the work and effects of it . But at these things blind and ignorant contenders may carp and cavel , till they be more blind , and plunged in gross darkness and unbeleif . Bapt. I would know where the Spirit , in so many words , is called the key ? Answ. It seems as if he would be very exact in keeping to the words of Scripture , when he calls for a proof of that , in so many words , which he dare not deny the matter of , and sayes , it may be a good comparison ; so it appears he was presently checked , and saith , he would not be found to carp at any thing that may agree with sound Doctrin , though he has carped at many things that are sound ; and now do's he not deserve to be tried by his own rule , and ask'd , where he proves that he is justified by the shedding of the Blood that was let out by the spear , in so many words ? and where ( in so many words ) that Blood shed without the gats of Jerusalem is the means of Salvation , as in Pag. 28. whereas if that be his Justifier and Saviour , where is it ? 't is not in being , pag. 40. so then his Saviour it appears is not to be found ; whereas the Blood of Christ which justifieth , purgeth the Conscience , cleanseth from all sin , and wherein he washeth them that follow him , is still in being ; cleansing and washing being a real act and spiritual work in every true Beleiver that walks in the Light , whereby the Blood of Christ is known , 1 John 1.7 . Bapt. I do much wonder where that Word or Doctrine was coyned that they so often teach and exhort ; that is , to turn to the Light within ? P. 28. Answ. Why art thou so positive against it then W. B. to oppose that thou knowest not whence it rose ? But this Light within has sufficiently manifested thy darkness and ignorance of Scriptures , which so plainly witness to the Light within : but thou confessest the Scriptures are a Mystery , and if you are not careful to compare Scripture with Scripture , you may soon miss and split your selves , p. 30. Indeed thou hast egregiously missed and split thy self against the Light within — and how then is the Scripture thy rule ? and how is it known ? it seems thou seest no farther then comparing the Scripture with Scripture ( like the hireling Priests that deny revelation and immediate teaching ) instead of having recourse to the Spirit that gave them forth , and opens them , it being the Key that opens the Mysteries of God , as thou hast granted before , P. 28. Again ; touching the Grace of God that hath appeared to all men , Tit. 2.11 . W. B. gives his meaning upon it in these words , viz. The word [ all ] is often taken restrictively , and may intend all that have heard it , and such to whom it appears to be Grace . Thus you may see how he can turn plain Scripture with his meanings to serve his own end ; as if he should say , it appears to all to whom it does appear ; or where it s said , Christ dyed for all , and tasted death for every man , he dyed but for all that he dyed for , or for every man for whom he tasted Death . What gross absurdity and nonsence is this he has put upon plain Scripture ? and how has he set himself , and his meanings to be Judge over the Scriptures ? when at other times he would make us believe the Scripture is his best and most perfect rule , but here denies the general extent of the Grace of God , so plainly and frequently owned in Scripture , without any such restriction or exception as he seems to infer from Mat. 3.6 . And as to W. B's exception against that passage in Saul's Errand &c. touching Christ in his People , being the substance of all Figures , Types & Shadows , fulfilling them in them , and setting them free from them , but as he is held forth in the Scripture without , he is their example ; upon which W. B. would observe that if Christ doth in his people fulfil the Law , and set them free from it , then it was not what he did at Jerusalem on the Cross , no more in that body then in another ; and then to confute this , he sayes , how false this is , God in his due time will make manifest to their shame . R. We must then have better arguments than W.B. hath produc'd , for we have but his bare word to prove it false : howbeit Christ fulfilling the Law in his people does not make voyd his suffering on the Cross , nor his suffering there frustrate the end of his spiritual appearance within ; but all his sufferings without did bear testimony to the Power and Spirit of God within , by which he offered up himself ; and his ending the Law , that upheld the Figures and Types without , through his suffering ; and his setting open a living way through the vail , to wit , his flesh , did signifie and bear testimony to his inward and spiritual manifestation in his people , who enter into this new and living Way , knowing that Christ took away the first Covenant , that he might establish the second , which second Covenant is inward and spiritual ; and God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh ; and for sin condemned sin in the flesh , that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us , who walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit , Rom. 8.3 , 4. So here the end , the substance , the life of all , the absolute freedom is manifest and fulfilled within , in every one that is established in Truth & Righteousness ; and of this we shall never be ashamed as a falshood , as unjustly our peevish opposer supposeth : And though I am accused , pag. 28. for saying , Men are not sanctified or justified barely by the suffering of Christ without ; this was no quibble at all , for I really intended as I said , that all was not done by that suffering ; the work of Sanctification and Justification being wrought , fulfilled , and evidenced within , to them that believe ; though I did not deny but his offering without did in a sence contribute towards it , in that he took away the first Covenant , that he might establish the second , which is inward and Spiritual . As to that against W. Smith in the 31. pag. touching Christ in us offering up himself a living Sacrifice , to that W. B. says , Then in vain did our dear Lord suffer that cursed Death upon the Cross. Rep. That 's a false inference , for his fufilling the Righteousness of the Law within , does not make void his abolishing and taking away the shadows of the Law without , but rather brings to know the effect of his obedience and suffering , and the testimony thereof to be fulfilled within ; as also his offering is of further extent then that of the outward , for he made his soul an offering for sin , and he is the propitiation not for out sins only , but for the sins of the whole World ; mark , he [ is ] the Propitiation , in the present time : and seeing there remained no more a sacrifice for them that wilfully sinned , therefore there does remain a sacrifice for them that do not wilfully sin , the true knowledge and living sence of which ( as Christ does fulfil the Law inwardly ) appeaseth the wrath and condemnation of it , and raises hope in that soul that has known and lain under the sentence of death within it self ; And did not the Apostle bear in his body the dying of the Lord Jesus ? and did not he say , I fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh , for his Bodies sake , which is the Church ? Col. 1.24 . [ Mark ] that which is behind of his afflictions ; So then all was not ended on the Cross. And had not they an Altar to eat at in the Heavenly Sanctuary ? and could this be without an Offering or Sacrifice to eat of ? or do any eat his Flesh , and drink his Blood , who do not partake at this Altar of him as a Sacrifice ; or the one Offering , which ended the many ? Bapt. Oh how does these Hell-hatched errors that have been fomented by Satan , and twisted into the hearts of these poor and ever to be pittied Creatures , detract from the worth of that one Offering ! page 31. Answ. This is but a malitious accusation and slander cast upon us by an envious spirit , and never yet could be proved against us ; And how does W. B's pitty appear toward us , when he has vilified us , and shamefully reproached us , to render us as odious as he can , concluding us to be in Hell-hatch'd errors , fomented by Satan ; whereas before in pag. 28. he much wonders where our Doctrine of turning to the Light within was coined : And thus he contradicts and brings shame upon himself , by malitiously vilifying the Innocent , and his hypocrisie and feigned pitty herein is manifest . And as for W. B. his carping against W. Baley's saying , that which helpeth the Soul , &c. is that pure Spirit of meekness in which it was created . Upon which W. Burnet concludes , That if that Light ( call it what we will ) in , or with which man was created , be the Quakers Christ , then their Christ cannot be Gods Christ. Rep. A false conclusion : for man was created in the Image of God ; And was not Christ the Image of the Invisible God ? Was not he that Word that created man ? as is confessed page 34. And does not the Word both sanctifie , save , and redeem ? ( But more to that hereafter ) And this Spirit of Meekness , or Divine Image , in which man was created , is not a Light of Nature , as he falsly supposeth , and saith , W. Baly's Christ is , pag. 33. — And although in the same page , he saith , That Christ that restoreth mans loss , is both to be sought and found in Heaven , viz. above the Stars and Firmament . But then we may suppose that he hath neither sought nor found Christ there : But if he say he hath sought Christ at such a distance by Faith ; I ask , If the Object or Foundation of Faith be divided from the Faith ? Or if the living Faith does not stand in the living Power of God ; and whether the Righteousness of it does tell of seeking and finding Christ above the Clouds , Stars , and Firmament ? Or were it good reason to say , We find Christ at such a distance , because we believe he is there to be sought ? But why tells he so much of [ above the Clouds ] are not the Clouds , and circumference of the Heavens , as well under us as above us ? Here follows four Arguments , or Reasons , which W. Burnet layes down as the Quakers grounds from Scripture , pag. 33. 1. From John 8.58 . Before Abraham was , I am . Now saith the Quaker , That which was the true Christ , was before Abraham ; but the Body was not before Abraham was , therefore not the true Christ. To this I say , and add , That he has minced our words ; Howbeit the Scripture distinguisheth in several places touching Christ , and the Body of Christ ; of Jesus , and the Body of Jesus , Mat. 27.58 . Heb. 10.5 , 10. But this Argument W. B. omits to answer in this place , he saith . 2. Argument from John 6.41 . I am the Bread that came down from Heaven . Now saith the Quaker , If Christ be Bread , and this Bread came down from Heaven ; then the Body could not be Christ , because that came not down from Heaven . I add , He was truly Christ as he came down from Heaven , and proceeded from the Father , for he was his only begotten Son , and not divided from his Body . 3. Argument , From Ephes. 4.10 . Now he that is ascended , is also the same that descended . Now , say they , If he that ascended , be the same that descended ; and he that descended be the Christ , — then the Body could not be the Christ , because that did not descend , but was taken in the Womb of the Virgin. I add , If he means by Body , that which consists of flesh and blood and bones , such a one was prepared for him , Heb. 10. But that [ he ] , viz. Christ , did not consist of that which was mortal ; neither did his flesh ( which is the Bread from above ) see corruption . 4. Argument , From John 17.5 . And now , O Father , glorifie me with thine own self , with the glory which I had with thee before ●he World was . Then the Body could not be the Christ , because that was not till many hundred years after the World was . The Body which he saith was taken in the Womb of the Virgin ; Was it in that capacity before the World was ? And was not he the true Christ , the Son of God , that so prayed unto the Father ? Now I do grant that the Scriptures mentioned in these Arguments we have urged , and argued from them against Baptists , though not altogether in those expressions , against all which W. B. gives his judgment in these words , viz. These , with many other such like Arguments , they use to blind the eyes of the simple . Which indeed is a very easie way of answering , thus to condemn them all by the lump ; for I do not find any particular answer or confutation in the following matter to any one of those Arguments before recited , but rather a confirmation ; where he goes on in these words , viz. The Scripture giveth this Character of Jesus Christ , that he should be called Immanuel , Mat. 1.23 . that is to say , God with us , or God in flesh . And in Isa. 9.6 . He is called the Mighty God. And so John 1.1 . He is called the Word , which was with God , and was God , and that he was the Root and Creator of Man , and that Word or Eternal Spirit took flesh , &c. But he further adds as followeth . Bapt. Now as he was God , he was Co-Creator with the Father , and so was before Abraham , and had glory with God before the World was , and in this sence came down from Heaven . Rep. What nonsence and unscripture-like Language is this , to tell of God being Co-Creator with the Father , or that God had glory with God ? Does not this imply two Gods , and that God had a Father ? let the Reader judge . Bapt. Which Word was God , yet he was not a Saviour as he was the Word or Creator of the World , any otherwise than he was held forth in the Promise . Rep. How then doth he say , I am God , a Saviour , besides me there 's none other ? And what is his saving his People from , but from sin ? And was not this Gods real work throughout all the Generations of the Righteous ? And did not God say , Surely they are my People , Children that will not lie ; and so was he their Saviour , Isa. 63.8 . And did not God say , Look unto me all ye ends of the Earth , and be ye saved , for I am God ? And was it not God that in Christ was reconciling the World , and that established them in Christ , and anointed them , 2 Cor. 1.21 . ch . 5.19 . What confusion and huddle-muddle has this our Opposer made about Salvation ? who further adds , B●pt . He was not a Saviour , as the Root and Creator of Man , but as he was to be the Off-spring of man ; for as he from the dayes of Eternity was with the Father , and was his delight , he most properly derived that title of being the Son of God , pag. 34. Answ. Do but mark the confusion and darkness of this man , who hath denyed that God , the Word or Creator of Man , is a Saviour ; and Christ , as he was the Root and Creator of Man , and as he was the Eternal Son of God , or from the dayes of Eternity , he hath denyed to be a Saviour , but as he was the Off-spring of Man. Do but eye the tendency of this Doctrine , thus to deny the Son of God to be a Saviour ; and how blind and ignorant this man is of the true Christ and Saviour ; and what has he done less than set the Flesh above the Spirit ? for he grants that the Word , or Eternal Spirit took Flesh , but denies that he was a Saviour , as he was the Word , or the Son of God , whereas it is through the Son of God that Eternal Life is received , John 3.16 . and Gods love was manifest , in sending his onely begotten Son into the World , that whosoever believes on him , might not perish , but have everlasting Life ; and the ingrafted Word is able to save the Soul ; the Word of Grace is able to build up , and to give an inheritance among them that are sanctified : So here the efficacy of the Son of God , and the Eternal Word , is proved against the Baptists false and unscripture-like distinction . And touching those Scriptures , That God by his own Blood purchased to himself a Church , Acts 20.28 . Now God hath neither Blood , nor suffered , saith VV. B. Which chargeth the Apostle with untruths ; and that of John 3. No man hath ascended up to Heaven , but he which come down from Heaven , even the Son of Man which is in Heaven . VV. B. saith , pag. 35. Now according to his Manhood or Flesh he was not in Heaven . [ By which he hath rather justified the former four Arguments than otherwise . ] But his telling , As he was very God-man , * so the Manhood suffered , and the act was ascribed to the God-head . [ This is confusion and contradiction to the former , that God did not suffer ; but such kind of muddlement our Opposer is willing to please himself with . And then he adds , That he giveth that to the one which belongeth to the other ; the same is spoken of our Salvation ; sometimes it 's attributed to one thing , and sometimes to another ; sometimes it is imputed to the act of Christs Suffering ; † another while the very effects of our Salvation is put for the cause . [ Where do the Scriptures make such distinctions , or such Rhetorick ? And where proves he that Faith and Obedience to the Gospel is no cause of Salvation , but the effects ? And by what rule doth W. B. thus essay to correct the Scriptures , which he counts his rule ; or thus detect the sayings of Chiist , as being so improper , as giving that to one thing which belongs to another in such a high concernment ? And has not he herein in effect accused the Scriptures , and God , with the same thing ( or as great offence ) as he has accused us withal , as giving that to one thing which belongs to another , as our attributing Salvation and Justification to God or Christ , as the Eternal Word , which he would lay all upon the Off-spring of man , or upon the Body of Christ that suffered death upon the Cross , and sometimes upon the shedding the Blood out of it , denying Christ as the Word and Son of God to be the Saviour ? contrary to plain Scriptures , as before is shewn . Bapt. Christs ascribing and attributing that to the God-head that properly refers to the manhood , is a stumbling-stone to this poor people , pag. 35. Answ. What is this , but to charge Christ with improper Doctrine , or impertinent speaking ? wherein W. B. makes himself wiser than Christ , and a Corrector of Christ's sayings : 'T is no marvel that he hath so much accused us , ( feignedly calling us poor People ) when he hath done no less to Christ , as one not consenting to the wholesom words or sayings of Christ ; but in effect denies them improper , ( in the case mentioned ) and then makes that the cause of our stumbling ; both which are false , and wherein we are either accused for saying , That God saveth , Justifieth , or the Eternal Word Redeems , Saves , &c. ( and that God was in Christ reconciling the World ) ; If our Adversary should say this is improper , and that it 's an error to ascribe that to God , the Eternal Word , or to Christ as the Eternal Son of God , that properly belongeth to his Manhood , as the Son of Mary , not as the Son of God , &c. Has not he accused Christ to the very same purpose with speaking improperly ? What can we expect from such a one , but the like reproaches and contradictions of sinners , that Christ Jesus the Captain of our Salvation underwent ? and yet this proud presumptuous Opposer of Truth will pretend the Scriptures ( or sayings of Christ ) to be his Rule ; but when they please him not , hee 'l assay to correct them by his dark confused meanings , and corrupt interpretations . Who further adds to his corrupt Doctrine , as followeth . Bapt. But as he was God without being Man , or the Root and not the Off-spring , he could not save Man ; for God was the Offended , and Man the Offender ; and it was impossible for the Offended to acquit and clear the Guilty , and to discharge the Debt , and to imbrace the Offender ; for no man out of Christ can see God's face , and live . Answ. Here it appears what he means by saving Man , and clearing the Guilty ; onely a pacifying of God , and an acquitting Man from the penalty , ( as he imagines ) which as he sayes , God could not do ; but something that was not God , but the Off-spring of Man , as he saith . So by this he doth not mean Salvation to be a work wrought in man , as a saving and delivering from sin , or the offence within , but a satisfaction made to God that he may imbrace the Offender , and yet he must be in Christ that sees God's face . What gross contradiction is this ! and what falshood & blasphemy is it , to say , God could not save ! or , that it was impossible for him to discharge the debt ! Where first observe , that if Salvation consist in pacifying or satisfying God , without any inward work wrought by him in man , ( which were a gross error so to say ) ; this is all one to say , God cannot please himself , but some other must do it ; and this is to deny that God had infinite love , good will , and favour in himself , as the real cause of his sending his Son into the World : And then I ask , Who is he that satisfies and appeaseth God , dischargeth the Guilty , and payes the Debt ? Bapt. It is the Man Christ Jesus . Quest. Whence came he ? Answ. God gave him . Quest. And what is this Man Christ Jesus , who can satisfie , pacifie an Infinite God ? Bapt. He is God-man , born of a Virgin. Rep. How then doth it hold that God could not save , and how would this divide God , and set him at a distance from himself ? if that which satisfies be of infinite worth ; then whence came all these distinctions tending to make a variableness in God , whose love is infinite , and whose wayes are wayes of Truth and Righteousness ? Or is it good Doctrine to say , That God pacified God when he saw himself angry ? For sayes the Baptist , It was God-man that did it . Which is all one as to say , God corrected himself , and not Man , while perfection and freedom from sin is denyed in this life by Baptists and others ; and then he was Mediator to himself , and so a Mediator of One ; whereas a Mediator is not a Mediator of One , but God is One , Gal. 3.20 . and the cause of his displeasure , and of the Law , and sentence of death being added , was sin , which Christ comes to destroy , and to put an end to , that the Creature may be in him in whom the Face of God is seen , in whom there is no sin , and in him God is well-pleased ; and thus we know a Mediator is not a Mediator of One , but we have a Mediator betwixt God and Man , even the Man Christ Jesus : We have an Advocate with the Father : Mark , we have an Advocate , and we have life through the Son of God ; we know that the Righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in every one that walks after the Spirit . And so we can rejoyce in God our Saviour , and testifie against all such antichristian spirits as deny his Power , and say , He could not save as God ; whereas his Divine Power worketh mightily in the true Believers unto their salvation ; for he hath wrought all our works in us , and it is his Divine Power that giveth unto us all things pertaining to Life and Godliness , 2 Pet. 1.2 . And how is Redemption purchased by the Son of God , if he doth not save , as he is the Word , seeing it 's confessed he most properly was the Son of God from the dayes of Eternity ? pag. 34. And how hath he wrought off man's disobedience by his suffering ? is it wrought off whilest man lives in it , and denyes Perfection , and Freedom from sin tearm of life ? and how then doth the Seed of the Woman bruise the Serpents head , if the Serpent must have a place and sway in man , by leading him into sin the dayes of mans life ? must not the Serpent's head be bruised within , and the Seed be known within which bruiseth it ? and hath not he that is born of God the Seed in him ? and is not this Seed Spritual ? But what is the price so much talk'd on , that both satisfies God and saves man ? Bapt. The sufferings and blood sheding of Christ , had in it as much efficacy to save a soul from the first day he was promised ( if believed on ) as the same day he dyed . Answ. Was not the object and foundation of Faith in being through all ages ? did not the Prophets believe and follow the Spirit of Christ in them ? 1 Pet. 1. from whence then was the efficacy to Salvation derived ? was it from spirit or from flesh ? surely it is the Spirit that quickens : if so , the efficacy was spiritual , not natural , or that which could not be lost . But whereas so much mention is made of the blood shedding , and so much efficacy and vertue seems to be derived from it ; I ask , is it not a spiritual supernatural vertue , power , and efficacy , that cleanseth , saveth and justifieth ? if it be , how then doth it proceed from the shedding of the Blood outwardly ( which shedding by the Souldiers Spear , was a wicked mans act ) or from the essence of the Blood , if it perished , and be not in being , as is confest ? And is it good doctrine to say , that that Blood ( or Life ) which sanctifies and justifies true Believers in all ages , is not in being ? When sanctification , purging the conscience , &c. is a real work , can it be done by a thing that is not ? And yet we know that Christ the one Offering , the living Sacrifice , and the Blood of the Covenant , which cleanseth them that walk in the Light , 1 Joh. 1.7 . is still in being , and was throughout ages — and he is said to be a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world , and made his Grave with the Wicked , and with the Rich in his Dea●h , &c. And that his sufferings did all testifie for God , his love and good-will — though being reconciled through his death we are saved by his life , Rom. 5. which Life is hid from all them that deny his work within , and the effect of his obedience to be inward and spiritual , and plead that God imbraceth the offender ; denying perfection in this life , which is the tendency of much of W. B. his doctrine . Bapt. The Spirit could not in that capacity be a Saviour , for that could not be killed nor hanged on a Tree , but he that was a Saviour was so , pag. 37. Answ. Herein he has shewn us that he would fain deny the Spirit to save ; but then he minces and mangles his work , telling us the Spirit could not in that capacity be a Saviour , that is , as hanged on a tree . Indeed we never affirmed that the Spirit is a Saviour in that capacity ; but as it lives , quickens , gives life to the Soul , &c. So however , seing it 's granted that the Spirit in some capacity saves , the Saviour is not divided ; Christ was not a Saviour without the Spirit ; though W. B. his words imply so much , if the Salvation depended on his Body when killed ; which his Brother Ives said was but an empty trunk when the Spirit was out of it ; now it would be sad to say , that an empty trunk was the Saviour of the world . Bapt. He was that day born a Saviour : but had the Light within been the Saviour , or the Spirit , or the Godhead , then this had not been that day born . Ans. Hereby hath he denyed the Spirit , the Light within , or the Godhead to be the Saviour , and so hath gone about to make a separation between Christ , the Spirit , the Light , and Godhead : whence then came this Christ ? and by whose power was he a saviour ? had he any power but what was given him of the Father ? But a Saviour was born : what was he born for but to bear witness to the truth ? and by whose power and spirit , but by the Power and Spirit of the Father ; and what he did and wrought , it was what God did by him — and though that day was born in the City of David a Saviour ; was he a Saviour distinct from either Light within , Spirit or Godhead ? what manner of Saviour was he then ? this is sad doctrine , to exclude Spirit , Light within , and Godhead from being a Saviour ; surely flesh and darkness is not the Saviour , but the holy thing ( spoken of ) which was of the Holy Ghost . Bapt. But in his 4th . reason , pag. 37. It 's again confessed , That Saviour that good old Simeon waited for , and was revealed by the Spirit , and that he had the promise of seeing , was the Child brought to Jerusalem in Maryes arms , and taken by him into his arms . Answ. This proves against our opposer in the first place ; for , 1st . By the Spirit within good old Simeon waited and had the Saviour revealed , therefore the Spirit is saving . 2ly . I ask , Was this Child a natural birth ( without either Spirit , Light within , or Godhead ? or without any Spiritual birth , seeing the Light within , Spirit , and Godhead is so much excluded and excepted from being a Saviour ? But would it be good doctrine to say , that Mary and Simeon carried their Saviour in their arms , but had not the Light nor Spirit within them to save them ? or that they carried God in their arms , and had him not within them , if that Child was God-man ( as he tearms him ) ? But Simeon did see further then the Baptists , for he confessed Christ to be a Light to enlighten the Gentiles , and the Salvation God had prepared before the face of all people ; which Light within they have endeavoured to darken as much as in them lyes . Bapt. The Spirit desended on him like a Dove , Mat. 3.16 . but had the Spirit been the Christ , what nonsence would it be to say the Spirit desended upon the Spirit ? Answ. The Spirit 's descention on him in that likeness , was a testimony to John , the more to confirm his belief of Christ ; and does not argue that Christ was with out the Spirit before , or had it not in him , who was the Son of God ; neither doth it argue that Christ the last Adam , is not a quickning Spirit now in his spiritual appearance , 1 Cor. 15.45 . because that John saw the Holy Ghost desend on him like a Dove in the dayes of his flesh — And as to Christ within both to Save and Rule , ( for which we are accused ) we are not ashamed of him ; but do testifie to him within , and his Government , Power , and Authority within ; and have not been ashamed of him before men in stormy dayes and tryals ; when many of the Chieftains of you Baptists were fain to hide and secure your selves , for all your boasting of your God and Christ at a distance above the Clouds , Stars and Firmament . It 's no marvel in such tryals fear surprizeth you , and that now you can carp , and cavel , and vilifie such as have been faithful in sufferings , when you so much oppose the Light and Saviour within — and shew your selves to be in the spirit of Antichrist , as this W. B. hath apparantly done , to the shame of you that owne him : who also , pag. 38. accuseth us for owning , that Christ took flesh or a body , but will not own that body to be Christ. Answ. Indeed if we should say , that Christ took Christ , it would not be good sense ; but that a Body was prepared him , and Christ came in the flesh , and was put to death as concerning the flesh , but quickned by the Spirit , is Scripture-language . Bapt. The Galatians did crucifie to themselves Christ afresh , by looking back from Christ , to be justified by their own merits , Gal. 3. Answ. They did crucifie Christ , by disobeying the Truth , and turning from the Spirit , or Light within , wherein they once begun well ; wherefore it was said to them , Are ye so foolish , having begun in the Spirit , are ye now made perfect in the flesh ? Gal. 3.1 , 3. so they that oppose the Light within , and deny the Spirit within to save , are but still in the flesh partaking of the same foolishness ; and therefore there must be a travel known before Christ be formed in them . — And whereas we are accused with denying that Blood let out , to be any way meritorious to Salvation , p. 37. I ask , Whether any thing is of eternal merit and worth that is not everlasting ? and where do the Scriptures use those expressions , and so much vary about the Blood of Christ ; as one while to say that the shedding that Blood outwardly was the meritorious Cause of Salvation , another while the word [ shedding ] to be left out , and the stress laid only upon that Blood it self , which the Souldier shed or let out of his side with a spear , which was after he was put to death , Joh. 19.33 , 34. [ But then of what effect were the drops of Blood that fell from him in his Agony ? ] Another while , it is the Body that was crucified , and not the Spirit within that saveth ; for [ the Spirit , Light and Word within is denyed to be the Saviour , by this our Adversary ] who does not know how to state his own Faith and Principles , who in page 39 , accuseth us with gross mistake , meer fables , and vain titulations , for saying , that the Blood that sprinkles the conscience , cleanseth from sin , sanctifieth , &c. is the Life , or is of the Spirit : and that it is the Blood of the Covenant , &c. Answ. Here is no mistake nor fables proved against us , for the Spirit , the Water and the Blood agree in one ; and by walking in the Light is the Blood of Christ known to cleanse from all sin . Now the Blood that sprinkles the conscience , clenseth , &c. is as truly spiritual as the Water is , which Christ giveth , and by which he washeth his Church through the Word : for we are not to suppose two kinds of Saviours and Sanctifiers ; that is , both a natural ( which is not in being , as is said of the blood that was shed ) and the Spirit which still liveth . And though Christ , that he might sanctifie the people with his own blood , suffered without the gates , Heb. 13. I hope it will not be denyed but this work of Sanctification is wrought and fulfilled within by the Spirit , and that sprinkling and purging the conscience is inward ; and then , where the Blood is said to do it , that must needs be spiritual ; for surely the Blood shed outwardly must needs have a spiritual signification , as well as the Water and the Cross had : and the Apostle attributes washing or sanctifying , to Water as well as Blood. Again , it is confessed , pa. 35. that God by his own Blood purchased to himself a Church , Act. 20.28 . Now the Blood of God , or that Blood that relates to God , must needs be spiritual , he being a Spirit ; and the Covenant of God is inward and spiritual , and so is the Blood of it . But our opposer confesseth , he is as ignorant of any such Blood as may be , pag. 42. And indeed , so is he like to be whilst he sets himself to contend against the very Mystery of God , and against plain Scripture , telling us , that God hath not Blood , pag. 35. contrary to Act. 20.28 . Zech. 9.11 . And now to his 40. pag. I query , 1. Whether Christ abolishing and destroying the powers of Satan , and bringing in everlasting Righteousness ( as is said ) be not a work to be fulfilled within , where Satan has ruled ? 2. Whether man be discharged of his debt whilst he lives in disobedience to the Light or Spirit of Christ within ? 3. Whether Christ's obedience on the Cross will exempt man from his obedience to Christ , or doth acquit him in the sight of God , without having the Righteousness of the Law fulfilled within him ? 4. Whether God be satisfied that the many offences should remain , and yet take the one Offering for a full discharge from the Penalty ? If you say he is , then , 1. Whether any mans Offences can deprive him of his discharge ? 2. Or , whether it is but only a selected and chosen number that the Debt is payed for , and Salvation merited ? 3. And then , how did Christ die for all ? But if the benefit accrue to man only upon condition of believing ; 4. Then how is mans obedience excluded , as not any cause of Sanctification , Justification , or Salvation , but an effect only ? And then , can there be any true believing without obedience ? And further , I find contradictions about the same matter , pag. 40. for one while the stress is laid upon Christ the one Offering , which is still in being , and his Flesh and Blood pertaken of , eat and drunk of by the true Believers ; another while upon the Blood that was shed . Touching which the Baptist saith , Though that blood shed be not in being , yet the efficacy of that blood is still in being . Rep. What efficacy ? is it Natural or Spiritual ? If Natural , then how is the Blood lost , or not in being ? and then , where is the Spirits work ? If the Virtue be Spiritual that saves and sanctifies , &c. it never dies nor perisheth ; neither was it derived from that which is not in being , nor was any corruptible thing its original . Again , If the Blood shed cry afresh , and sound in God's ears for mercy for sinners , ( as he saith ) ; How is God fully satisfied , and mans Debt discharged , or his disobedience wrought off as before ? Is Mercy still to cry afresh for , where Wrath is appeased , and satisfaction made , ( as is supposed ) ? This is strange confusion . And can that which is of such infinite worth , as to purchase man's eternal Salvation , be corrupted or lost , so as not to be in being ? As absurdly he brings a Comparison of a purchase among men , and that which bought the purchase being lost or given away ; As if God should set such a small value of that which purchaseth man to himself , ( Oh! gross ignorance and error ) , And yet it 's confessed , That Christ is the Purchaser , and sinners or salvation the Purchase , and the price his life , pag. 40. Whereas before pag. 39. he has contended against that of the Blood that sanctifieth , being the Life of Christ , but now the price is his Life ; and is not that price which purchaseth and redeems sinners , that precious Blood of the Lamb which is not corruptible , ( no more than his flesh was ) ? But if W. B. intends that the blood outwardly shed by wicked hands , was the price and life of Christ , as his words import . Then it follows from his other words , that the life of Christ is not in being ; and this would render him a dead Christ , whereas the life that he laid down , he had power to take up again ; and he said , I lay it down of my self , and no man taketh it from me ; and he gave himself a ransome for all . And now , whereas S. Eccles , in pag. 41. is accused of little less than blasphemy about a Letter , chiefly of a passage concerning the blood , in these words , viz. The Blood that was forced out of him by the Souldiers after he was dead , who before that bowed his head to the Father , and gave up the Ghost , I did say that was no more than the blood of another Saint , &c. Thus far S. E. Now to these words , viz. No more than the blood of another Saint , [ his intent was ] as to Papists and you , whose minds are carnal , who oppose the Light within , and also simply , as to the essence of the Blood , which you dare not say is still in being , but not as to the spiritual virtue and testimony which is still in being . This S. E. owned to be his intention ; And in his Letter in the preceding words , did highly speak in esteem of the Blood of Christ and New Covenant , as more excellent , and living , and holy , and precious , than is able to be uttered , &c. which might have satisfied any spiritual or unbyassed mind . And what difference is there between VV. B. his saying , that the blood that was shed , is not in being , or comparing it with a price that is lost ? pag. 40. and S. E. his saying then , It was no more than the blood of another Saint , the one being not of continuance no more than the other ? By this , may not VV. B. as well be thought guilty of little less than blasphemy , as S. E. ( though I do not so judge either therein ) ? And seeing that the Children had fl●sh and blood , and Christ took part of the same ; if the same , how was it more , or another , simply as to the matter of blood ? And if the Jews had drunk the blood that was shed on the Cross , do you Baptists think it would have cleansed them from sin ? And yet I do not make S. E. his expressions therein ( especially as construed by our Adversaries ) to be an Article of our Faith ; for I own that in one sence the blood shed was more than that of another Saint , ( though not in the matter of it , as to the visible ) ; [ more ] in that it had a peculiar signification ; and Christ the one offering was the man peculiarly , ordained or appointed of God , both to bear the sins of many , to end the many offerings under the Law , and in all his example and sufferings , that were permitted to be laid on him , he both answered , fulfilled , and ended the outward part and administration of the Law and Shadows , and performed the Father's Will therein ; and was particularly eyed and prophesied of accordingly by the Holy Prophets ; and through all his sufferings in the flesh , he gave an universal testimony , and consecrated a new and living way , even through the Vail , that is to say , his flesh , that the way into the most Holy might be manifest . Bapt. Neither did I ever read that it was the blood or life in Christ , or the life of Christ in his People that we are justified by , &c. page 42. Answ. The Spirit of Christ ( which is Life ) doth both quicken , sanctifie and justifie the true Believers , John 6.63 . 1 Cor. 6. and that Blood and Water that 's said to cleanse , is not of another kind , but agrees in one with the Spirit , all which is known within , and the effects thereof . Bapt. All things under the Law , in the Type , was purged with blood , and this blood was material blood , and not mystical : And that blood that Christ shed in order to the effecting the Salvation of man , must needs be visible and material blood . Answ. Do but mark here what a sad consequence he has drawn ; as if one should reason , that because the Type was material , visible , and not mystical ; therefore the antitype or substance must needs be material , and not mystical : by this all Mysteries or Divine things are excluded from being either Spiritual , Antitype , or Substance , whereas it was the Heavenly things themselves that are in Christ , in which consists the substance and end of Types and Shadows : But to say that material blood was a Type of that which was material ; this is to give the substance no preheminence above the Type , ( especially if neither of them be mystical , nor in being ) or like as if one should say , one Type was a Type of another ; as to say , because Circumcision , which was a Type , was material or outward , therefore the Circumcision of the Spirit , which is the Antitype of it , must needs be outward too , and not mystical , ( which would be sad Doctrine ) ; and thus he might as well reason touching all other Types and Shadows under the Law , and the Heavenly or good things to come , prefigured or shadowed by them , That because the Priests under the Law ( at the outward Tabernacle and Temple ) were Ministers of outward or temporal things , carnal Ordinances , Shadows , &c. therefore those good things to come , those Heavenly things which Christ was said to be the High Priest of , must needs be temporal , and not mystical , ( which were absurd to assert ) ; whereas both the Heavenly and more perfect Tabernacle and Altar , with the Heavenly things , are all a Mystery , and Spiritual ; the offering and living Sacrifices are Spiritual ; the Passeover Spiritual ; the Seed Spiritual ; the Bread , the Fruit of the Vine , the Oyl , the Flesh and the Blood , ( which give life to the Soul ) yea , the Water and Blood ( which washeth and sprinkleth the Conscience ) are all Spiritual and Mysterious , as the New Covenant it self is , which they belong to , and these things known in ; and this is the new and living Way which Christ set open , through the Vail of his Flesh , Heb. 10. Let them receive this who can . And this may answer that Question , Where ever did God attribute the name of Blood to a Spirit ? Whereupon I may ask as well , if the name of Water was never attributed to the Spirit ? see John 7.38 , 39. And whether the Blood of God ( and of the New Covenant ) be not Spiritual ? If not , How is it called his own Blood ? Acts 20.28 . And is not the New Covenant Spiritual , viz. the Law written in the Heart , and the Spirit , in the inward parts ? If it be , surely the Blood of it must be spiritual too . Again , compare the Articles of W. B. his Faith about the Blood shed without the Gates , &c. pag. 42. By which , he saith , we are justified . Another while , It is the means or cause of Justification , ( and yet 't is neither Spirit , nor the Life by his own confession ) ; nor is it in being , but lost , pag. 40. [ whereas we are justified by the Spirit , and saved by his Life ] 1 Cor. 6.11 . Rom. 5.10 . chap. 4.25 . And yet , In contradiction , he saith , Christ hath redeemed man by his death , and blood shedding at his death , ( he should have said , It was shed after his death ) ; and then , Let every ones expectation be from that Christ , &c [ Indeed our expectation is from no other Christ , for two Christs we do not preach . ] But mark how one while W.B. makes that blood , and the shedding of it , his Justifier , Redeemer , &c. which he has confessed is not in being . Another while People must seek their Saviour above the Clouds and Firmament , pag. 33. contrary to the Righteousness of Faith , Rom. 10.6 . Another while , they must look to Jerusalem for Justification , to the blood that was there shed , pag. 24. contrary to Deut. 30.13 , 14. and Rom. 10. And if men should look to Jerusalem for that blood , it is not there to be found , for it 's not in being , sayes W. B. What confusion , what a Laborynth and uncertainty is he in , and does he bring his Hearers into ? But as to these things , sufficient is said before , and the Mystery of Christ's sufferings and blood ( as revealed by his Spirit ) owned by us , according to the Scriptures of Truth . Their vain Confusions they shall die and cease : But Light and Truth within , they shall increase . Some Heads of the Controversies and Disputes that were between Geo. Whitehead , and the Baptists , at Chertsey and Horn in Surry , on the 16 th and 17 th dayes of the fourth month , 1668. THat one of you Quakers hath writ , that Christ was never seen with a carnal eye , which we can prove he was . * G. W. Christ said unto Philip , He that seeth me , seeth my Father also ; which could not be with a carnal eye : And was not he the true Christ , a Saviour , that said , Before Abraham was , I am ? and it 's said , he took part of the same that the Children had , to wit , flesh and blood , was not that [ he ] the true Christ ? † W. B. That Body of Christ that suffered on the Cross , and was buried in the Sepulchre , was Christ the Saviour of the World. G. W. That Body was called the Body of Jesus , when Joseph of Arimathea begged it of Pilate , for that Body was prepared for Jesus ; it is not said , He begged the Jesus of Jesus , but the Body of Jesus . Jer. Jves . That Body without the Spirit , ( when it was dead ) was but an empty Trunk . * G. W. But so is not Christ the Saviour of the World , who was before Abraham was . W. B. Christ as he was God , before he assumed the Body that suffered , could not break the Serpents head , nor was he capable of being a Saviour without a Body , † because he had nothing to offer as he was God , &c. G. W. Herein Will. Burnet hath denied the power of God , and its sufficiency , and hath spoken no less than blasphemy , to say , God could not break the Serpents Head ; whereas God is often said to be a Saviour , as in Hosea , I am God , a Saviour , besides me there is none other , &c. with many other places . J. J. & W.B. Is the same Body of Christ , that suffered on the Cross , in Heaven , yea , or nay ? G.W. The Body of Christ in Heaven is not Carnal but Spiritual . J. J. & W. B. But what became of that Body that suffered , is it in Heaven , yea , or nay ? G. W. I do not read that he is in Heaven with a Body of Flesh , Blood , and Bones , it was changed . Jer. Ives . As for the question of the Blood , wee 'l pass that by , * Is the same Body of flesh and bones in Heaven ? G. W. Would you have me answer your Question herein , when you dare not assert it to be the same in all the Ingredients , to wit , as having the Blood in it ? What say you to it ? Is it in Heaven without the Blood in it ? Christ after his Resurrection appeared in divers Forms , as one while his appearance to Thomas was to be touched ; at another time he said , Touch me not , I am not yet ascended ; and he appeared among them , the Doors being shut ; and once also he vanished out of their sight ; Mark , he vanished out of their sight ; and in what manner his Body was changed , or what trasmutation it had , I shall not go about to demonstrate , for I would not go about to make my self wise above what is written in this matter . Jer. Ives . What change or alteration Christs Body might have , we cannot determine , nor what glory he is in ; for to inquire with what Body the the dead are raised , is absurd , and that which should not be . † G. W. Why then do you obtrude a Question upon me , which you dare not plainly assert , [ or which you are unlearned in your selves . ] W. B. You deny the shedding of the Blood upon the Cross , that was let out by vertue of the Spear being thrust into his side , to be meritorious , or the meritorious cause of mans Justification . This W. B. held in the Affirmative . G. W. The shedding of that Blood let out by the Spear , was an act of a wicked man , and the Spear an instrument of cruelty ; which to lay the meritorious cause , or stress of Justification upon , is false Doctrine ; for there is a great difference between Christ's offering up himself by the Eternal Spirit , a Lamb without spot to God , and the acts of wicked men inflicted upon him , as it 's said , by wicked hands they put him to death . Jer. Ives . You must not stand upon the Grammatical sence of his words , but take his meaning : my brother Burnet meant , Christs Passion , and not the Act of wicked men , or not the Souldiers act of shedding Christs Blood , † Brother Burnet , was not that your meaning ? W. B. Yes brother , * yet it is proper to say , It was Christs Act to shed his blood , as it was Sauls Act to kill himself , when he bid his Armour-bearer thrust him through . G. W. This is a gross Instance and Comparison , thus to instance a murderer in this case of Christs suffering , thus to bring a murderer to prove it Christs Act to shed his Blood when he suffered ; neither doth it hold parallel , for Christ did not bid the Souldier thrust his Spear into his side , it was done after he was Crucified and put to death . Jer. Ives . But whether or no that Blood that was shed upon the Cross , was a meritorious cause † of Justification ; I am justified and purged by it . G. W. Whether or no that Blood which purgeth , cleanseth and justifieth , is still in being , seeing it is the Blood of Christ that cleanseth † them from all sin , who walk in the Light , as God is in the Light ; and that there are three that bear Record in the Earth , the Spirit , the Water , and the Blood , and these three agree in one . But to this Question , Whether the blood that cleanseth , beareth Record in the Earth , be still in being ; no answer they gave . Now the Principal Heads of the Controversie were more briefly collected , as followeth . Together with Matt. Caffin's Contradictions against them . Jer. Ives . THE Blood that was shed upon the Cross , doth Justifie and Sanctifie . G. W. Is that Blood still in being , yea or nay ? J. I. Wee 'l pass by that Question , it may be it was left behind ; Answer to the Body that was Crucified , whether it be in Heaven , yea or nay ? G. VV. Is it in Heaven without the Blood in it ? Mat. Caff . The Blood is in it ( or with him ) in Heaven , he entered into the Holy Place with Blood. * G. VV. Is it that Blood that was shed outwardly in his Body ? M. C. Yes , by the Almighty Power of God , he could take it up again . G. VV. Where provest thou that he did take it up again ? Others deny the Blood to be in the Body in Heaven ? But of this Point we could have no proof . And further take notice of some Passages and Contradictions of one Tho. Brown a Baptist of Worplesdon , contending with some of our Friends in the Marshalsey Prison , about the Blood that was shed , &c. as the others before . G. VVhitehead asked him , What became of the Blood that was shed ? is it in being , yea or nay ? Bapt. Nay , it sank into the ground . G. VV. Then M. Caffin and thou are of two contrary minds , for he said , It is in being with Christ in Heaven , * he having power to take it up again . Bapt. Then M. Caffin is able to demonstrat what he has affirmed as touching it . G. VV. Now it appears thou wilt contradict thy own belief , and be of M. Caffin's Faith , whereas thou shouldst have some Faith of thy own , and not pin thy Faith on M. Caffin's sleeve , nor be of such an implicit Faith. There are many things in Will. Burnets Book which I could enlarge upon , and shew his ignorance in ; and several of his Arguments and Opinions concerning the Resurrection , which I shall not here contend with him about , though he has argued very weakly and shallowly , and wrested Scripture , as I can manifest . But I recommend the Reader to that part of the Dispute that was with M. Caffin about that Subject , wherein both he and W. B. are answered , without further collecting his impertinences therein , who appears ignorant of the Mysteries of Truth and Salvation , and goes to assert matters beyond his understanding , like an intruder into things he has not seen . But the Resurrection , according to the Scriptures of Truth , and Testimonies of Christ and the Apostles , we do believe and own , as recorded in John 5.21 , 24 , 25 , 28 , 29. chap. 11.25 . Mat. 22.30 , 31 , 32. 1 Cor. 15.34 , 35 , 36 , 37 , 38 , and so on . 2 Cor. 5.1 . many other places might be cited . And as for W.B. his silly Rhimes and Jiggs in the end of his matter , they are so frivolous , and several of them so gross and false , that they are not worth inserting again , part of them depending on that saying in his Book , pag. 20. where he saith , viz. Let me perswade every sincere hearted Soul to keep to the Scriptures , that they may be made to participate of all the good held forth , by and in the Promises of God. Which is like those Jews , thinking to have eternal Life in the Scriptures , who would not come to Christ that they might have Life ; yet they searched them to partake of the good which they fell short of therein , John 5.39 , 40. But W. B. in pag. 21. hath again contradicted himself , in confessing , That the Reception of the Spirit is the onely means to put a man into a capacity for , and give him right to obedience . There is nothing that gives a Soul right to Gospel-Ordinances , but the gift of Christ to us , and his being revealed in us by his Spirit . Thus far W. B. to his own confutation has confessed to the Reception of the Spirit , and the Gift of Christ , and his being revealed in us by his Spirit , whereby he has overthrown much of his work . Here follows some Heads of the Dispute with Matthew Caffin about the RESURRECTION . M. C. I Do affirm , That the same Bodies of flesh , blood and bones , that are buried in the Graves , shall be raised , from 1 Cor. 15. & John 1.19 , 26 , 27. What say you to the Question , do you deny it ? G. W. Some man will say , How are the dead raised , and with what Bodies come they forth ? 1 Cor. 15. O Fool ! that which thou sowest is not quickned , except it die , and thou sowest not that Body that shall be , but bare Grain , it may chance of Wheat , or some other , &c. M. C. My Question is not with what Body , but if the same that is laid in the Earth shall rise ? G. W. The Question , How are the Dead raised , and with what Bodies come they forth ? ( which was asked by some whom the Apostle reprehends as Fools ) comprehends thy Question , Whether the same Body , or another shall be raised ; and therefore the Apostles answer in the case , ( might satisfie thee , if thou wert reasonable ) I do certainly believe . M. C. It is sown a natural Body , it is raised a spiritual Body ; the same that is sown , is it that is raised . G. W. Is that Body of flesh , blood , and bones , ( thou speaks of ) the Seed to which God giveth a Body as it pleaseth him , and so to every Seed it s own Body , yea or nay ? [ But no direct Answer would M. Caffin give to it , though many times urged . ] M. C. I appeal to the Husbandmen and Farmers who sowe Wheat , Rie , Pease , &c. How the same Grain or sort , and Grain that they sow , doth arise and grow up again . G. W. I do appeal to the Husbandmen , whether the same Corn that is in the Ear of Wheat , Rie , &c. be the same that was sown in the ground ; or whether that Body or Ear of Corn ( being come to maturity , so to a body ) be the very same that was sown ? Surely they may easily see M. Caffin's error herein ; for the Wheat , or other Grain that falls into the Earth dies , as to the substantial part of it ; but if that which comes forth , were but the same that is sown , there were no encrease ; then Husbandmen would soon be a weary of tilling the ground , and sowing . And if that Body of flesh , blood , and bones , be the Seed , ( to which God giveth a body as it pleaseth him ) and which shall be raised , ( as he saith ) ; then from hence every man must come forth with two bodies , which is monstrous , ( to this M. C. could not reply nor clear himself ) . And further , there is a Natural Body , and there is a Spiritual Body , as there are Bodies Coelestial , and Bodies Terrestrial ; The Sun , Moon , & Stars are the Coelestial Bodies ; but Birds , Beasts , and Fishes , are the Terrestrial . Now you might reckon him a very blind and ignorant man that should put no difference between those Bodies Coelestial , and these that are Terrestrial ; or that should reckon the bodies of Sun , Moon , and Stars , and the bodies of Birds , Beasts , and Fishes , to be all one in matter and substance , as M. Caffin hath done concerning Natural and Spiritual Bodies . M. C. The Resurrection of the Bodies , I affirm , and believe : And people , it is as you have been taught and believed . So let us leave this to the people to judge of , &c. G. W. There is something more to be said to what thou hast alleadged from Job 19. of seeing God with these eyes , which thou wouldst make people believe are these bodily eyes . This supposes that God is not a Spirit , nor invisible , &c. for no object or thing is obvious or visible to the Carnal or outward eye , but what is visible and outward , that is a bodily and outward Substance ; for these bodily eyes cannot see a Spirit , or that which is invisible . M. C. These Eyes shall be glorified and made Spiritual ; for as now they are mortal and corruptible they cannot see God , but as they are made immortal , and glorified , they shall see God. G. W. Job after said to God , I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear , but now mine eye seeth thee , Job last Chap. This was a Spiritual eye , and not his bodily eyes ; but to tell of these bodily eyes to be made spiritual , and then of seeing God with them , that they must be made so spiritual , and be the same they are for matter and substance : This is strange Doctrine , and that which we could never hear demonstrated from any Maxime in Divinity , nor yet from any general Rule or Reason in Philosophy . Le ts hear how thou wilt demonstrate that these carnal or bodily eyes shall be made so spiritual as to see God , who is invisible , and yet they be the same in substance that they are , ( but M. Caffin did not at all assay to demonstrate this his Assertion , nor to clear himself of his absurdities . ) M. C. Let us go on to the next Question , and leave this to the judgment of the people . G. VV. It 's here ( before this Auditory ) evident and manifest that thou M. C. art confounded in thy work , and put to a non-plus , not being able to manage thy Assertion , nor to clear thy self of the absurdities justly charged upon thee from thy own Words and Arguments ; wherefore be ingenious , and confess thy error , and that thou art confounded , and not able to maintain the controversie in this matter . Thou hast come off very faintly ; I advise thee , as thou wilt answer it before the great God , ( who will judge the secrets of men by Christ , according to the Gospel ) that thou dost not wrong , nor go to out-face thy own Conscience before this people , as if thou wert not confounded , but deal plainly and ingeniously , and confess and acknowledge thou art at a loss , and confounded , who for proof tells the people , It is thy belief , and what thou hast affirmed is true ; As much as to say , It is true , because it is true ; or people must believe it , because M. Caffin sayes it ; and then they must receive it upon an implicit Faith , as believing he is infallible : but M. C. hath no such authority with us , for we see him fallible , in error and in confusion , as particularly , about the same Wheat growing again , and seeing God with these bodily eyes . [ With many more errors and falshoods which M. Caffin was detected for , which we have more at large upon record . ] A POST-SCRIPT . THese Baptists who have been thus wrangling , querying , and contend about the Resurrection of the same flesh , blood , and bones , have manifested their carnal fleshly minds ( wherein they are puffed up , as Intruders into things they have not seen ) and their Gospel , to consist more of imaginations about flesh & blood , which cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , 1 Cor. 15.50 . than of any real knowledge of the true and saving Gospel , which consists of Spirit , Divine Power , Life and Light , the knowledge of which doth afford true satisfaction to them that enjoy it , without such vain and carnal contentions of Baptists , and questioning how the dead are raised , and with what Body , like those whom the Apostle reproved as fools , 1 Cor. 15.35 , 36 , 37. As also like the Devil his disputing or contending with Michael the Arch-Angel about the Body of Moses , Jude 9. They have appeared in these their carnal contests , to darken peoples minds from the true Light and Life within . And such have been the products of flesh , and darkness against the breakings forth of Truth in its Light and Power , which is , and will be exalted over all these oppositions and Clouds of ignorance that rise up against it . THE END . Reader , Thou art desired to amend such Errors as have escaped the Press , whether Words or Points PAge 8. line 3. for yet is not , read yet it is not . p. 30. l. 3. f. computure , r. composure . p. 32. l. 22. f. had a knowledge , r. had not a knowledge . p. 33. l. 26. f. be the rule , r. be not the rule . p. 36. l. 18. f. this , r· their . p. 38. l. 19. f. has , r. he has . p. 50. l. 1. f. denies , r. deems . p. 63. l. 29. f. trasmutation , r. transmutation . p. 27. l. 1. f. W. B. his false Aspertions , r. and its sufficiency . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65873-e1930 * Where are these tearms in Scripture but that God was in Christ , God manifest in flesh , &c. † Act , and suffering are two things ; the Act was wicked mens , but the suffering Christs . Notes for div A65873-e10650 Will. Burnet , & Jer. Ives . ] * The accusation . † To this they would not answer . * Here he flatly contradicted his Bro. Burnet . † Blasphemy . * What a Body is that without Blood in it ? † Of which absurdity divers of you Baptists are guilty , as M. C●ffin , & others . † Here one Brother contradicted the other . * Note , he meant by a wicked mans actions , Christ's passion . † See how the Question is altered ; 1. If the shedding the blood , &c. 2. If that blood . 3. Is the meritorious cause . 4. Is a meritorious cause . † That which cleanseth , must needs be still in being , if cleansing be a real work , and that is spiritual . Notes for div A65873-e11650 * What holy Place , and with what Blood ? Notes for div A65873-e11860 * What a Babel are you Baptists building ! 
A65833	----	The accuser of our brethren cast down in righteous judgment against that spirit of hellish jealousie vented in a great confused book, falsly entituled, The Christian-Quaker distinguished from the apostate and innovator, in five parts ; the fallacy and force whereof being herein clearly detected & justly repelled. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1681 Approx. 407 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 151 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65833 Wing W1887 ESTC R19917 12290964 ocm 12290964 58889 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Rogers, William, d. ca. 1709. -- Christian-Quaker distinguished from the apostate & innovator. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2005-01 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Accuser of our Brethren Cast Down in Righteous Judgment AGAINST THAT SPIRIT OF Hellish Jealousie Vented in a great Confused Book , falsly Entituled , The Christian-Quaker Distinguished from the Apostate and Innovator ; In Five Parts . The Fallacy and Force whereof being herein clearly Detected & justly Repelled . Jer. 2. 19. Thine own Wickedness shall Correct thee , and thy Back-slidings shall Reprove thee ; know therefore , and see , that it is an Evil thing and Bitter , that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God , and that my Fear is not in thee , saith the Lord God of Hosts . John 13. 27. That thou dost , do Quickly . London , Printed for John Bringhurst at the Sign of the Book in Grace-Church-street , near Cornhil , 1681. A Short ADVERTISEMENT To faithful Friends called QUAKERS , to whom this may come . Christian-Friends ; IN this Treatise , we the peaceable Christian People called Quakers are Conscientiously vindicated and cleared , in our CRISTIAN SOCIETY , CHURCH-ORDER and DISCIPLINE , from the unjust Charge of APOSTACY and INNOVATION , and from the great Envy , horrid Abuses and Fallacies of WILLIAM ROGERS , in his Book falsly Entituled , THE CHRISTIAN-QUAKER DISTINGUISHED FROM THE APOSTATE AND INNOVATOR ; but his own Apostacy and Innovation is herein clearly Detected . And this is recommended to your Care and Prudence , to be reserved in your Hands , and dispersed only where you in your respective Places and Counties shall ( in the Wisdom of God ) see a necessity to remove and prevent the great Scandal , Infamy and Reproach of the said Book . A Brief INTRODUCTION TO ALL Faithful Friends CALLED , QUAKERS . Tender and Beloved Friends in Truth ; A Holy concern of Soul and Conscience , on behalf of our Lord Jesus Christ , his Kingdom , Church and People , THAT only was the real Motive to this ensuing Treatise . The matter whereof is not to trace the late Difference and present Controversie Historically , nor to traverse the Way of the crooked Serpent in all his ▪ windings , there 's no need of that , the Eyes of many are open to see his perverse Wayes ; but clearly to Detect and set Judgment upon his Work of Enmity in WILLIAM ROGERS's said Book , in the most Material Parts , that are Wicked and Scandalous to Truth , and Christ's Innocent Followers and Subjects , and to Evince the most Subtil and Fallacious Pretences thereof , and his most manifest Inconsistences and Self-Confutations , as well as his Froward Oppositions and Contradictions to us , as we are a Church and People , gathered by the Lord , and settled in good Order and Society by his holy Spirit . The Ground and Cause of the present Division and Opposition , furiously mannaged by W. R. and his Abettors against us , has been and is originally placed upon a wrong Spirit in them , a Murmuring , Complaining , Dividing Spirit , a Rending Tearing Spirit , a Dark Jealous Spirit , a Loose , Gainsaying , Opposit Spirit , a Proud Exalted Spirit , a Contemning Scornful Spirit , a Self-conceited Spirit , a Turbulent , Froward , Wilful Spirit ; against this Spirit have the Complaints been , by several Tender-hearted Friends among us . If we be asked , how we prove that to be the Spirit , against which we are now engaged in this Treatise ? We may justly Answer , W. R's Malicious Book is apparent Proof , being a Birth of that same Spirit , it bears the exact Image and Shape of all the Parts and Properties of it ; 't is Proof against him , and all that own it , being brought to the Test of Truth in all Consciences ; for it shews all that which is charged upon that Jealous , Rending , Dividing , Proud , Exalted , Scornful Spirit , &c. from whence the Book proceeded . It s Stile and Matter ( on his Jealousies , and if Report be true , &c. ) bespeak all these , to his and its great Shame and Disgrace . He places the Apostacy and Innovation against us , not only in outward Order , Discipline and Form of Church-Government , but even in the very Doctrine and Life of Christianity , as if they were greatly extinguisht from among us , and therefore has divulged his Book ( and that from a great pretended concern of Conscience on many ) that it might not be reputed , that the Doctrine and Life of Christianity are wholly extinct among the People called Quakers , but that both yet remain in some of them ( i. e. in W. R. and his Party ) But his termed , Honourable Friend John Wilkinson gives a quite contrary Account concerning the Breach of Concord and Jarr : The Cause , saith he , God hath shewed me , that it is not in Principles of Truth , nor in Christ's Doctrine , nor in any Practice , which Truth in the members of the heavenly Body leadeth into , but about Prescriptions , through the blind Zeal of the Weak , &c. And W. R. also grants , 't is but about the SHELL , and not the KERNEL , soon after he has placed the Apostacy in Doctrine and Life , as if both Christian Doctrine and Life were extinct among the greatest part of us , as a People . But how can that be true , if no Breach of Concord , nor Jarr in Principles of Truth , nor in Christs Doctrine , nor in any Practice which Truth leadeth into , and that this be shewn of God too ? yea , W. R. also confesseth , that those small Differences , which at first seemed but like unto little Sparks , Pref. p. 2. 't is true indeed , that great Endeavours , in much Christian tenderness , have been used for a Composure , and matters were brought near it at Drawell ; but Satan has prevailed to make this fiery Agent an Incendiary to make the Breach wider , ( having been secretly animated ) his abusive Book is Proof ; whereby he has abused divers of the Servants of Christ by Name , and many not named in 's Book , rendring them Apostates , Innovators , &c. He has Abused and Scandalized our Meetings , and our Order and Discipline , as being but a Form and Government , set up by man , and Mans Tradition ; G. Fox's Form of Church-Government , G. F's Orders , &c. These Expressions we own not , they are not proper ; for though we grant , that He hath been Instrumental in the hand of Christ for stirring up others to Unity and good Order , yet we are satisfied that the great Builder , Former and Orderer of the spiritual House , is Christ Jesus , and that HE is the Author and Foundation of that Christian Religion , Care , Over-sight and good Government among us , as a Church and People ; the Substance , Intent and End of all which , is , that pure Religion , which is not only to visit the Fatherless and the Widows , but to keep Unspotted of the World , which we have Scripture-Testimony and Instances , and Christ's and his Apostles Doctrine for . W. R. has not spared to seek out occasions against Persons , to gather up and divulge Weaknesses , to pervert Truth , and make false Constructions of mens words , his Heart being filled with Pride and Envy , his Head is loaden and confused with cloudy Conceits and perverse Imaginations against the Innocent . After all his great Clamour and heavy Charge of Apostate and Innovator , &c. about Orders , Prescriptions , Impositions , Innovations , Form of Church-Government , &c. setting aside his Prejudice and Enmity , his wrong and evil Jealousies , Perversions , false Inferences , false Reports , and the like : The Matters of Fact , wherein he can place a real Difference , as to Church-Order and Discipline , may be summed up in this narrow Compass , under these Heads , viz. I. W. R. and some others ( his Party ) seem to be ONLY for a select Company of Elders and Deacons to order in Church-Affairs about the Poor , Marriages , &c. Our Meetings in that case are more free and open for others also of the Younger sort to be present , whose Conversations are Honest and Sober . II. W. R. in his Contest with R. B. seems not to own that the Church of Christ hath Power or Right of Judgment to decide Controversies ( in matter of Evil Fact * or Trespass of one Brother against another ) in things of outward Property , &c. but only the Parties differing to have an equal Choice of Persons , to determine the Difference ; yet he varyes , and is not altogether consistent with himself , but is some-what off and on in these cases , as is more fully evinced in this Treatise . Whereas we distinguish between a wilfull Injury and an Offence ( whether real or supposed ) only through mistake . In the first , the real ( not supposed ) Offender has not an equal right of Choice with the Offended ; but the Offended Brother hath Power to proceed with the Offending , according to the Doctrine and Order prescribed by Christ , Mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. so far , as ( if there be necessity ) to make his Complaint to the Church , and if he refuse to hear the Church , then he is to be accounted as an Heathen Man ; accordingly we assert , the Power and Right of Judgment in the true Light , to be in the Church of Christ , in cases of real Trespass of one Brother against another , which is not to set the general Judgment of Truth in the Church , in opposition to any measure of true Light and Judgment in any particular Member , but to the real Offence , which the Light in all condemns . In the second , Where the Offence is not wilfull , but through Mistake , both the Parties differing are more easily perswaded , either to compose the matter between themselves , or to submit to a hearing and determination of two or three just , judicious and discreet Persons in the Truth , whom neither Party hath any just Exception against . III. They are against proposing Marriages before the distinct Meetings of faithful Women amongst us . We judge it very convenient and sociable to lay them before those Meetings , where they are settled . IV. They are against recording Condemnations to Posterity . VVe judge it needful in many Cases , for the clearing us from Reproach , and vindicating of Truth ; and that both the Condemnations and Repentance be recorded , and Testimonies kept against such as continue Impenitent , whose Conversations are reproachful and scandalous to Truth , and to our Society , as a People gathered by the Lord's Power . Now , if these things seem inconsiderable to divide and seperate upon , and that they might easily be accommodated or reconciled upon amicable conference . We say so too ; therefore the greater is the Enmity of that Spirit , that will seperate on any of them , & cast the odiums of Imposition , Apostacy , Innovations , &c. upon us , for our Christian Care and Advice about them ; urging with Severity we need not among our tender-hearted Friends , and 't is to no purpose to those that are in prejudice and hardness , only we would have them ( who profess the same Light and Spirit with us ) to studdy to be quiet , that whilst they pretend Liberty of Conscience , they might not maintain Opposition to others for those things , which they are Conscientious ( in the Light of Truth ) in the Practice and Counsel of ; for that were to plead Liberty of Conscience to themselves , and allow it to none but themselves . Whereas our pleading ( for Liberty of tender Conscience ) to the outward Powers , was never intended for a Liberty to make Discord , Schisms or Strife among our selves , but singly as a People intending nothing but Love and Unity , among our selves , in Gods Way and Worship , a Liberty of Conscience ( in Christ Jesus , as to us ) from those outward Laws , Penalties and Persecutions , which we have suffered under , NOT a Liberty from the Yoke of Christ , nor from the Judgment of Truth ( nor from Unity or good Order in him ) no more than a Liberty of gross Enormities from the hand of Justice ; not a Liberty for Disorder and Confusion , not a Liberty to set Conscience against Conscience , under the Profession of the same Light and Spirit of Christ ( as the great and certain Rule of Conscience ) for that were to let up Ranterism , and cause our Adversaries to Blaspheme against the true Light. As for W. R's Book against Church-Government , 't is outragiously Wicked , Clamorous and Abusive ; it admits of no Mediation nor moderate Qualification , or Accommodation ; no better Character than Apostates and Innovators will serve his turn against the very Body of Friends , who are not of his Party ; his Book is revengeful and scornful , it gratifies the Ranters and Atheists , and tends to make our Enemies rejoyce , and us a scorn to Fools ( if they take him for a Quaker , which now he is not ) it tends in many things to expose us , not only to the Censure of our profest Adversaries , but to the Fury of our Persecutors , and to bring open Persecution upon us , by Implicity , rendring us Obnoxious to the outward Government : The Lord rebuke that Malicious , Proud Spirit , from whence his Book came ( and he will rebuke it , and send it to its place ) and stop the Mouth of Iniquity , for his Name and Seed's sake . His Title Christian-Quaker , is a false Title , as his Unchristian Work evinceth . His Text also which he begins with , is Mis-applyed , viz. the words of Christ , which are , As I hear , I judge ; this is his Text. 1st , As it s applyed only to outward Hearing and Evidence , 't is Misapplyed ; Christ intended his hearing of the Father , and that true and just Judgment given him of the Father , who bore witness of him , John 5. 30. & ch . 8. 16 , 18. And the Father hath committed all Judgment to the Son , Joh. 5. 22. for Christ had ( and gives also ) a spiritual Judgment , that is not after the sight of the Eyes , nor after the hearing of the Ears , Isa. 11. 3. yet in Cases Criminal , Infamous and Injurious , we grant outward and certain Evidence , Proof and Knowledge very needful , safe and judicial ; though a true and spiritual Discerning , Sence & Judgment of Spirits in the Church of Christ , cannot in Truth be denyed , it being a spiritual gift . But 2dly , As the said Text [ As I hear I judge ] is applyed by W. R. to himself , or his Judgment in 's Book , 't is Hypocritically and Unjustly applyed ; for he has not given Judgment as he has learned or heard of God or Christ , but in many things as he has heard by Reports , and from his own Jealousies , according to his common phrase , If Reports be true ; this Jealousie has entred me ; I am Jealous ; full of Jealousie , &c. which we are sure proceeded not from God nor Christ , but from the Spirit of Antichrist , the Cruel , Outragious , Deadly , Hellish Spirit or Image of Jealousie * or Envy , as will be more obvious in the Sequel , although in the following Treatise many gross Abuses and false Aspersions are omitted ( to prevent prolixity ) as much as we well could , in such unpleasant Controversies . Now we entreat the Patience , even of all those that have any way encouraged or promoted W. R's said Book , or have been any wayes affected with it , that they would be pleased seriously in coolness and moderation to read over and peruse this following Treatise , and Impartially in the Light of Truth weigh the Matters , and we doubt not but God will further open their Eyes , and enlighten their Understandings , to the Acknowledgement of the Truth , and to escape the Enemies Snare , which we pray God in Mercy effect , in order to their Stability and Peace in the Truth , as 't is in Christ Jesus our Lord. If W. R. should Object or Question us about wording this Treatise in the Plural , in using these terms W E and US , &c. as in whose Name it is written ? 'T is answered ; They are used according to the several occasions given in his Book , which the matter treated on shews ; sometimes in the Name of the People called Quakers , when vindicated from his Scandals ; sometimes in the name & behalf of our publick Meetings ; sometimes in behalf of Christs faithful Ministers & Servants among us ; sometimes in behalf of our Second Dayes Meeting in London , according as there is occasion , to vindicate these from his abuses & scandals . And though 't was thought meet this ensuing Treatise should only be signed by our antient and known Friend Ellis Hookes , as witness for our said Meeting concerned , not doubting but his Credit in the case , will go as far as W. R's Subscription ( and farther , no doubt ) on behalf of himself , and other Friends in Truth concerned ; yet he may be assured , 't was not through any doubt , fear or diffidence , or want of freeness of Spirit , that the Name or Names of such Friend and Friends as are most immediately concerned in this Treatise , are omitted ; there 's time enough yet to concern the Names of such in Print , as some already are , if W. R's Enmity & Revenge continues farther to throw Dirt and Reproach at any rate upon us ( or any of us by Name ) in Print , as he has done , this Treatise contains but little in Comparison of what several have in reserve against W. R. his Unkind and Unchristian Dealing , and Perverse Gainsaying ; he is here treated far more mildly than his work deserves . May the Lord yet humble him , and grant him Repentance unto Remission . The Contents of the ensuing Treatise , under the Title ( Disaffection . ) DIaffection 1. Of William Rogers his Title [ The Christian - Quaker Distinguished ] Page 1. Disaffect . 2. Of his Subscription on behalf of himself and other Friends , pag. 2. Disaffect . 3. Of the great concern of Conscience , pretended for the Publication of his Book , p. 2 , 3 , 4. Disaffect . 4. Of his high Applause and Comparison for John Story and John Wilkinson , p. 5. Disaffect . 5. His Pernicious Construction of the words , [ Let us exclude the Wisdom and Jealousie , and have an Eye to the Brethren ] rendring Friends under a Popish Ministry , p. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. Disaffect . 6. Of his unjust Reflection upon our Quarterly & General-Meetings , p. 9 , 10 , 11. Disaffect . 7. Of his omitting the Names of some Persons reflected on in his Treatise ; his Self-contradiction and Injustice therein , p. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. Disaffect . 8. On W. R's Conclusion , That for some time past , G. F. hath stood in a state of Seperation , &c. p. 14. [ Note , That the Number of this Disaffection missed the Press . ] Disaffect . 9. Of W. R's Conscience in preparing his Manuscript : His Delusion therein ; his Book an Untimely and Monstruous Birth , p. 16 , 17 , 18 , 19. Disaffect . 10. Of his pretended Righteousness in proceeding to Print and Publish his Book : His Reasons given , proved Fallacious and Deceitful , from pag. 19 , to p. 32. His Injustice also in his Instances , p. 32 , 33 , 34 , 35 , 36. Disaffect . 11. Of Believing as the Church believes ; W. R's Envy & Fallacious Abuse in the Citation , to render us like Papists , p. 37 , 38 , 39. Disaffect . 12. W. R's Fallacy and Forgery in devising an Objection , like an open Adversary , to render the People called Quakers , ( who are for outward Methods and Forms , &c. ) Apostates from Christ's Light and Law within , to set up Man , &c. p. 39 , 40 , 41 , 42 , 43. Disaffect . 13. Of outward Government , Rules , &c. we know no other practised among us than such as answer the pure Law of Love and Truth within , p. 44 , 45. Disaffect . 14. Of Mens-Meetings , his Reflection and Inconsistence , p. 45 , 46. Disaffect . 15. His Accusations Scandalous to many Friends Assembling , p. 46. Disaffafect . 16. Of VV. R's Enmity , and Perverse Jealousie against ▪ G. F. about the design of Monethly and Quarterly Meetings , p. 46 , 47 , 48. Disaffect . 17. Of his Jealousie , Unjustly charging Designs and Contrivances upon our Meetings , p. 48 , 49. Disaffect . 18. Of his Doubts , unjustly Reflecting gross Ignorance upon some among us , p. 50. Disaffact . 19. Design of Imposition denyed by us , p. 50 , 51. Disaffect . 20. Of the word Church-Government ; His dark Smiting ; the Matter cleared on Friends part , p. 51 , 52. Disaffect . 21. Of his pretended Reasonable Conclusion , and Right Reason , on the words of Christ and of the Apostle , Mat. 18. 15. and 1 Cor. 6. concerning Offences and Differences ; His Confusion and Self-contradiction therein , p. 53 , 54 , 55 , 56. Disaffect . 22. His Charge of claiming a Power over the Properties , as well as Consciences of Believers ( upon the Second Dayes Meeting at London ) is Scandalous , Unjust and Pernicious , p. 56 , 57 , 58. Disaffect . 23. His Charge against some , who may be accounted Chieftains among the Quakers , still grosly Scandalous against our said Meeting in London , tending also to Persecution , &c. p. 59 , 60 , 61. Disaffect . 24. Of composing and deciding Differences about outward things among our selves , as a People or Church , &c. and W. R's Testimony against it , p. 62 , 63 , 64 , 65 , 66 , 67 , 68. Disaffect . 25. Two gross Untruths Insinuated about deciding Differences , without the assent of the Parties , p. 68 , 69. Disaffect . 26. Of his Implicit Charge , and the Terms of Obedience , a Forgery cast upon our Assemblies , p. 70 , 71 , 72. Disaffect . 27. His Invalidating the Authority and Positive Sentence of the true Church , p. 73. Disaffect . 28. Of his limitting the Sentence of Christ , Mat. 18. 15 , 16. as not Obligatory on all other Members of the Church of Christ , &c. p. 74 , 75 , 76 , 77 , 78 , 79. Disaffect . 29. Of Preaching up Obedience ; the Conscience unsatisfied : W. R. unsound in the point , p. 80 , 81. Disaffect . 30. Of Preaching a Blind Obedience , denyed by us , p. 81 , 82. Disaffect . 31. Of W. R's Envy against G. F. and his Abuse in several Particulars , about Methods , Forms and Church-Government ; all Contradicted by VV. R. himself , in an Epistle signed by him and others , in the Year 1673. p. 82 , 83 , 84 , 85 , 86 , 87. Disaffect . 32. W. R's Principal Objection against outward Orders , Answered , p. 88 , 89. Disaffect . 33. His Objection against expecting that any should be invested with Power from on high , to establish things relating to Conscience , Confuted by his own Confession , p. 90 , 91. Disaffect . 34. Of the words [ No Unity but in Conformity ] brought upon Report , p. 91 , 92. Disaffect . 35. Of Womens-Meetings , how abused by some , and assented to by others . Of Marriages , how proposed , according to an Epistle from a Meeting in Suffolk , in the Year 1674. and some Advice given to Friends at Hartford , concerning the Womens Meeting , p. 92 , 93 , 94 , 95. Disaffect . 36. W. R's Abuse and notorious Untruth , about a Submission to the Womens Meetings , and Jealousie of their Ruling , p. 95 , 96 , 97. Disaffect . 37. His Shameful and Jealous Story against the Womens Meeting , and their becoming Rulers over both Men and Women ; with a Citation of two Seasonable Papers for the Womens Meeting , the one from G. F. and the other from J. VVilkinson , and above twenty Friends more of the Meeting at Kendall , p. 97 , 98 , 99 , 100 , 101 , 102. Disaffect . 38. Of entring into Possession of the Power of God. VV. R's Story against some Incredible , p. 103. Disaffect . 39. His Scandal on the People called Quakers and their publick Meetings , about unsavoury Testimonies and Division , p. 103 , 104. Disaffect . 40. Of Tythes . VV. R's Objection , and his loose and fallacious Answer , contrary to our ancient Christian Testimony , and to the Testimony given by J. Wilkinson and J. Story , and tending also to false Liberty and Ranterism , p. 104 , 105 , 106 , 107 , 108 , 109. Disaffect . 41. Of the Tree of Knowledge ; W. R's opposing that Doctrine , [ or saying that 'T was not good for Food . ] His joyning with the Serpent that tempted the Woman to eat of it . His great Ignorance and Error in going about to prove the Tree of Knowledge good for Food by that saying of Christ , John 17. 3. p. 109 , 110 , 111 , 112 , 113 , 114. The matter relating to Church-Government , principally aimed at on our parts , included in five general Propositions , p. 114 , 115 , 116. Disaffect . 42. Of the two sorts of Governments , as distinguished in W. R's Title page of the third part ( viz. the Outward Government , under which we live , and the Inward Government of Christ ) and his opposition to Visible Persons , outward Form of Church-Government under Christ's Government , examined , and the Case fully resolved , p. 116 , 117 , 118 , 119 , 120 , 121 , 122 , 123 , 124 , 125 , 126 , 127 , 128 , 129 , 130. Disaffect . 43. Of his accusing of the People of the Lord , called Quakers , with many things in Church-Discipline , wherein the Scriptures are silent , not granted him ; yet that he has answered himself , in assenting to a higher Rule than the Scriptures , p. 131 , 132 , 133 , 134 , 135 , 136. Disaffect . 44. Of Circumcision ; W. R's Error in accounting it A CHRISTIAN LIBERTY , because of the Christian-Forbearance in that and other legal Bondages , p. 137 , 138 , 139. The Case further explained , with respect to the weak in the Faith , who are distinguished from the Wilful and Contentious , and from those of a Libertine Spirit , p. 140 , 141 , 142 , 143 , 144 , 145. Disaffect . 45. The use and great abuse W. R. makes on G. Fox's Words in a Letter from Amsterdam , about making no Bargain with that Spirit which is out of the Truth . W. R's gross and horrid Perversions and Comparisons thereupon , as between G. F. and the BEAST ; Condemnation on that Spirit ; and the Mark of the Beast , mentioned Rev. 13. 17. p. 145 , 146 , 147 , 148 , 149 , 150. Of Henry Sweetings , M. B's and Edward Perkin's Certificates against G. F. examined , and appear varying in the Relations , p. 150 , to p. 154. Disaffect . 46. Of Fleeing in times of Persecution : W. R's Charge against G. F. and Certificates or pretended Testimonies from some Persons in Bristol , examined also , p. 155 , 156 , 157 , 158 , 159 , 160 , 161. Disaffect . 47. W. R's Charge and Judgment against G. F. about advising Friends to purchase Tythes ; Nathaniel Crips and Robert Arch their Certificates in the case , Examined , and shewn to be very Suspicious and Improbable ▪ p. 162 , 163 , 164 , 165 , 166 , 167 , 168 , 169 , 170 , 171 , 172. About the Censure of breaking Covenant , hainously resented by W. R. yet he hath not cleared himself therein , p. 173 , 174 , 175. Disaffect . 48. J. W's Answer of liking well no Impression of Form , unsound , p. 175 , 176. Disaffect . 49. VV. R's Unjust Insinuation of Dependency on some other Name than Christ Jesus , p. 177 , 178. Disaffect . 50. J. VV's foul Aspersion in his Letter , p. 178 , 179 , 180. Disaffect . 51. His bitter Insinuations in another , and W. R's Reviling , Partiallity and Injustice , p. 180 , 181 , 182 , 183 , 184. Disaffect . 52. W. R. of squaring with the Fifth-Monarchy Principle . His false Comparison , p. 184 , 185 , 186. A few Collections of VV. R's Concession to Truth , in pretence of our Duty to follow the Appearance of the Spirit in the meanest Member , p. 186 , 187 , 188. Disaffect . 53. Of Submission that centers not in the Creature , but in Christ , p. 188 , 189. Disaffect . 54. His Jealous Insinuations against G. F. and others , Pernicious , p. 189 , 190 , 191. Disaffect . 55. His application of J. N's Words against G. F. p. 191 , 192. Disaffect . 56. Of the Church built on the Rock , p. 192 , 193 , 194 , 195 ▪ VV. R's Concessions confuting his Book , p. 195 , 196. Of the John's Paper at Drawell , and that counted — the Foundation of the seperate Meeting , p. 196 , 197. A few Questions to John Story and John VVilkinson , p. 197 , 198 , 199. VV. R's Character and Comparison of J. W. and G. F. p. 200 , 201 , 202 , 203 , 204. VV. R. against VV. R. in some of his Contradictions to himself , and to his Friends John Wilkinson and John Story , p. 204 , 205 , 206 , 207 , 208 , 209 , 210 , 211 , 212 , 213 , 214 , 215 , 216 , 217 , 218 , 219 , 220 , 221 , 222 , 223 , 224 , 225 , 226 , 227 , 228 , 229. A Catalogue of some of VVilliam Rogers his Falshoods , Slanders , Abuses , Perversions , Railing , Scoffing , Flattering and Reviling against G. F. and others , p. 230 , 231 , 232 , 233 , 234 , 235 , 236 , 237 , 238 , 239 , 240 , 241 , 242 , 243 , 244 , 245 , 246 , 247 , 248 , 249 , 250 , 251 , 252 , 253 , 254 , 255 , 256 , 257. A Passage in William Rogers's Postscript , about a Meeting with G. F. and William Mead's Exception against it , being concerned in the matter , p. 254 , 255. A summary Collection of more of W. R's Acknowledgements in a full Confutation of himself , p. 258 , 259 , A Postscript , partly by way of Question , and partly some Friends Sence on VV. R's way of Writing , p. 263 , 264 , 265. Something of Concern added by another Hand , p. 266 , 267 , 268 , 269 , 270. The Accuser of our Brethren cast down in Righteous Judgment , &c. VVIlliam Rogers his Title of all the five Parts of his Treatise , viz. Disaffection I. The CHRISTIAN-QUAKER Distinguished from the APOSTATE and INNOVATOR . Observe . That by Christian-Quaker , we understand , he means Himself and his Party : by Apostate and Innovator , he means all those of the People called Quakers , whom he writes against ( and several of their Meetings , which he Reflects upon ) whether by Name , or not Named in his Book ( and that his Book is in Pursuance of the Title , as appears at large in it ) this we judge to be both False and Scandalous , and also , as absolute a Sentence of Excommunication , and much like a Bull from Rome , against many faithful Servants of Christ : And herein hath W. R. unjustly assumed a Power of Excommunication , never given him by Christ Jesus our Lord , nor allowed by his Church . In the Title pages of his three first Parts , he writes thus , viz. Disaffect . II. By WILLIAM ROGERS , on behalf of himself , and other Friends in Truth concerned . To those he writes against , he gives these Titles , viz. Preface . Adherents to George Fox , Apostates or Innovators : George Fox his Party : Those of Party with G. F. &c. Observe . First , We cannot believe that W. R. in this his Book truly represents Friends in Truth : But , secondly , That many Friends in Truth are Scandalized and Abused thereby . Disaffect . III. William Rogers's Preface saith , Now , so it is , that so great a concern of Conscience lies on many to encourage the Publication thereof , as that we can no longer forbear , lest it should be reputed , that the Doctrine and Life of Christianity were wholly extinct amongst the aforesaid People . Observe . This Passage we also judge tends to the great Reproach and Scandal of the People called Quakers , as implying , that they by a great Apostacy have given occasion to be so reputed , and that therefore W. R. and his Party only are so deeply concern'd to Vindicate the Doctrine and Life of Christianity ( in themselves only ) by the Publication of his Book . But who those many are , that had such concern of Conscience lying on them for its Publication , is yet to be enquired ; And what Antient Doctrine , or Doctrines of Christianity are those People called Quakers ( whom he writes against ) Apostatized from ? And what New and Unchristian Doctrines or Practices are they fallen into ? We find no Proof nor Discovery thereof in all his Book , but the said People greatly abused thereby . The Passage before-cited about such concern of Conscience , as that they could no longer forbear the Publication of his Book , to prevent the Thoughts of the Doctrine and Life of Christianity being wholly Extinct amongst the People called Quakers , together with many Passages in the Second Part of his Treatise , do shew , that it was designed to be published not only among the People called Quakers , but among the World's People , and such as are our Adversaries and Opposers , as appears by these Objections , amongst others , in his second Part , Chap. 2. page 6. viz. Obj. Do you not think that those Jews who Crucified Christ , acted not from the Light within , since some of them verily thought they did God good Service therein ? ( which having given an Answer to ) he frames another Objection , thus , viz. However some Objecting may say , What is this to a Light Within ? 'T is very plain that John the Evangelist meant nothing of the Light within , in your sence , but of the Personal Appearance of Christ without , &c. Observe . That these Objections are taken from our Adversaries and Opposers of the Light of Christ within ( and not from any called Quakers ) which W. R. accordingly undertakes to Answer , in Vindication of the Light within ; and therefore it appears , he designed his Treatise to go among Truth 's Adversaries , as well as Friends ; whence it follows , that wherein it either charges or reflects on the People called Quakers , or the greatest part of them , as being Apostates , Innovators , &c. or gone from the Doctrine and Life of Christianity , the Scandal and Reproach thereof against the said People , and the holy Truth professed by them , is the more Notoriously aggravated . And though W. R. has shewn himself as a strong Oak and tall Cedar in this Work of Division , we doubt not but some that have lean'd upon him , and been mistaken in his Design , will be ashamed of their Oak . Disaffect . IV. W. R. Preface , pag. 3. Many in that City ( i. e. Bristol ) retain their antient Respect for John Story and John Wilkinson , two Antient and Honourable Labourers in the Gospel of Christ , whose Conversations and Doctrine I have not known or understood to be exceeded in Godliness by any MORTAL MAN WHATSOEVER . Observe . By this it appears , that W. R. seems to be a great Admirer of , and Advocate for these Persons , whom he thus highly applauds and contends for ; but whether his being so greatly afficious for them will redound to their Reputation , or the Credit of their Cause , we refer to God's Witness in all Impartial Friends , and even to the same in their Consciences for whom he thus highly Advocates : and we disown his Admiration and Comparison of them , as not safe , nor a preaching up Christ , but setting up Man and Creatures , the same he has accused others for : He has neither Known , nor so much as UNDERSTOOD their Conversations and Doctrine to be Exceeded in Godliness by any Mortal Man WHATSOEVER . He has not understood that either Righteous Abel , Enoch , Daniel , Job , Elijah , Elisha , Jeremiah , or any of the holy Prophets of God , or Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ , did exceed these Persons ( whom he so highly contends for ) in Godliness of Conversation and Doctrine ; We cannot own his Judgment or Comparison herein ; and we ask , if J. S. and J. W. do really approve thereof or not ? Disaffect . V. W. R. Preface , p. 6. These kinds of Declarations frequently published amongst the aforesaid People , viz. LET US EXCLUDE THE REASONING , THE WISDOM AND THE JEALOUSIE , AND LET US HAVE AN EYE TO THE BRETHREN ; further Insinuating , as if God had ordained Ministers among them that are to see and hear for the Body , and common Members of the Church ( as the Printed Terms are * ) I cannot but be full of Jealousie , that these things have a tendency to insinuate Submission without Conviction , and nurture up Ignorance , instead of Wisdom , and to introduce Bondage , instead of Freedom in Christ , as much as ever was under the cover of a Black-coat in the Dark Night of Apostacy , where this Maxime , viz. Ignorance is the Mother of Devotion , is known to be true , with respect to a zealous Observation of what the Clergy have imposed and taught . Observe . First , That [ These kinds of Declarations are frequently published among the People called Quakers ] we utterly deny ; he hath therein ( as we judge ) uttered Falshood , and abused the said People . And yet to his own Contradiction he hath granted the matter herein opposed by him in pag. 18. first Part , in his Marginal Note , the words are these , viz. We would not be understood , that it is not fit to have an Eye to faithfull Brethren in any thing ; whereby he grants , that an Eye is to be had to faithful Brethren in some things at least ; the more unjust he to make such ill use , as he has done , of the words before-cited by him . Secondly , If any of the said People have at any time so published , as , Let us exclude the Reasoning , the Wisdom and the Jealousie , and have an Eye to the Brethren , we cannot but in point of Justice , as well as Charity , conclude , that the words will bear a better sence than W. R. hath ( as we judge ) most unjustly deduced from thence , and that from his own false and perverse Jealousie , which he appears to be full of ; and that the intent of the words was to exclude Fleshly Wisdom and Reasoning , and Evil Jealousie , and to have an Eye to such faithfull Brethren in their Doctrine and Example , as shew forth Righteousness and Christianity in both , as he hath in part granted ; and not that those eying them therein should be kept in Blindness , or brought under a Submission without Conviction , or kept under a Blind Obedience to be nurtured up in Ignorance or Bondage , like those in the Dark Night of Apostacy , where Ignorance is the Mother of Devotion ; for how should they eye faithful Brethren , if they be Blind or have no Eyes to see the Christian Example ? nor have we any such Doctrine among us , as to shut out the Reason , the Wisdom and Jealousie without Distinction ( that is , Wisdom and Reason of all kinds ) as he falsly saith , pag. 18 , & 27. first part ; as if we were taught to shut out True Reason , Divine Wisdom and Godly Jealousie , as his words [ Without Distinction ] and all kinds ] imply ; Oh Horrid Abuse ! These things considered , we judge W. R. hath most Unjustly inferred his false Jealousies against us , tending to render us , the said People , highly guilty of gross Popery , wherein he has taken up the Persecutors Weapon against us , tending to make us so Obnoxious , as that our Persecutors may take the more occasion to destroy us , but that the Lord stands by us ; and herein we judge W. R. has written and acted Wickedly , and shewn himself a Publick Adversary against the Interest of Truth and God's People , as well as against the Protestant Interest in general ; and consequenly , his Work herein greatly tends to gratifie our Enemies the Papists : And of this his wicked Work of charging us with Rank Popery , he ought to Repent , and to Retract and Condemn it ; and we do believe , there are but few ( if any ) of his own Friends , who dare publickly own or stand by him in it ; for 't is most shameful and abusive , and shews the Spirit of Apostacy & Persecution to be deeply entred him ; the time was when he knew better things , than thus to write of the People of God called Quakers , but his Condition is now to be Lamented ; the Lord forgive him . Disaffect . VI. W. R. In his first part , p. 8. thus frames the Objection , viz. But suppose some Persons in their respective Countries should undertake to meet together quarterly , and at such Meetings chuse two Persons to go to the said General-Meeting , as was endeavoured the last Year . W. R. Answers , viz. We deny that it can be agreeable to the Truth , for such to assert , that from thence they are invested with Power to Ordain and Appoint certain things unto which others as Members of Christ's Body ought therefore to yield Obedience , whilst not perswaded by Christs Light in their Consciences of their duty therein . Observe . These passages compared , we look upon them as unjustly reflecting on those Meetings of our Friends mentioned , and a gross mistake , at least , in his so stating the matter against the Persons desired or chosen to attend the General-Meeting , and upon this mistake depends much of his Book , from whence he hath deduced most scandalous Consequences , to render the Members of our said Meeting , as from their choice , assuming a Power to ordain and appoint certain things to impose upon their fellow Members , to yield Obedience unto , whilst not perswaded by Christs Light in their Consciences of their duty therein ; this we testifie against as a falshood , and as a scandalous Aspersion cast upon the members of our said Meeting , as tending still to render the People called Quakers assertors or imposers of Blind Obedience , to make us look as like Papists as he can ; but if he cannot prove that either our said Meeting , or the Friends of the Country , who come to it , do so assert , as he saith , That they are Invested with Power to ordain and appoint certain things unto which others as Members of Christs Body ought therefore to yield Obedience , and that whilst not perswaded by Christs Light in their Consciences , &c. ( as we are satisfied he cannot ) then 't is a manifest Forgery in him to place this as their assertion , and in this his framing of Objections and general Answers to the scandal of the said People , without either Naming or Enumerating those certain things so appointed and imposed , as he pretends , he appears a very unfair disingenious as well as impertinent Writer , that fights with his own Shadow , and quarrels with his own Unjust Forgery ; and we are still to query , What those certain things are that are appointed in our said Meeting , which the Light of Christ in his Members hath not Unity with ? And secondly , when did ever our Meeting , or our Country Friends attending it , assert , that They are Invested with Power to ordain certain things , unto which other Members of Christs Body ought to yield Obedience , WHILST NOT PERSWADED by CHRIST's LIGHT IN THEIR CONSCIENCES OF THEIR DUTY THEREIN ? For since our Adversary has framed this passage in pursuance of his Charge in his Title , viz. Apostate and Innovator , he might as truly have told the World , that the Quakers in their Meetings do ordain and impose such Innovations or New things , that in themselves are so unjust , dishonest or corrupt as that the Light within cannot own so as to perswade his Members thereunto , ( but he has known the contrary in his own Conscience ) for whatsoever things are just , honest , commendable , and of good report , consistent with Truth , Christian Charity , Love and Good Works , the Light of Christ within doth own and perswade to such things , and for such things , Christian Ends and Services we testifie our Meetings are , and to stir up thereunto in Practice , whatever Satan ( the Accuser of the Brethren ) or his Agents say to the contrary . Disaffect . VII . In W. R. his Preface to the Reader , he puts the Question thus . Query , Why hast thou omitted to mention the Names of some Persons and Authors of some Books and Papers reflected on in this Treatise ? In answer to this , he gives this principal consideration and reason , viz. Though hardness of Heart hath so over-taken some , as that they may still continue to oppose their Brethren in the Truth , without the least just ground or pretence either from the Light of Christ within , the Scriptures of Truth or right Reason ; yet I am not without hope that some others ( concerned against their Brethren in the present Differences ) may in some time come to a sence of their failings , and Repent , and then either the Memory of their Offence may be blotted out , or their Repentance therewith ( if timety known ) Recorded , and that according as Opportunity may permit and Truth require . [ Thus far W. R. ] Hence observe : 1st , That the Reason why he has reflectingly mentioned the Names of some Persons in his Book , is , their hardness of Heart , and continuing to oppose , as he judges . 2dly , The Reason why the Names of others reflected upon are omitted in his Book , is , That he hath hope of their coming to a sense of their failings ana Repent . And 3dly , That when they Repent , either the memory of their Offence may be blotted out , or their Repentance therewith Recorded . See now what Authority and Judgment he hath , ( Diotrephes-like ) assumed to himself ( without the Church , or consent thereof ) to Excommunicate , to Condemn , and Record such Persons as oppose him , and with what distinction some by Name , as hopeless of their Repentance , others not by Name as having hope for them : hence it follows , that all whom he hath censured and condemned by Name , are in his account hardned past Recovery , as George Fox , Charles Marshal , Jasper Batt , Robert Barclay , John Blaykling , Robert Barrow , and others ( Men more Righteous than himself ) he has reflected on and severely judged by Name , and that on Record , rendring them Infamous ( what in him lies ) to Posterity , in his printed Volumn ; and when is such a Record and Memory like to be blotted out , as he pretends ? But if to get off this hanck , he should alledge , That his meaning was not so severe as to render them whom he has named Irrecoverably Hardned , or Without Hope , ( though it most evidently follows , from his Reason before cited , why he has omitted the Names of others , Persons reflected on ) for that he hath intimated some hopes concerning G. F. in his fifth part , p 92. in these Words , ( viz. ) On this score I am now concerned in my Conscience thus to declare , and conclude , that for sometime past G. F. hath stood in a state of Seperation from many of the Lord's People ; May the God of Heaven give him a true sight and sense thereof unto Repentance , that so before his Body be turned to Dust , from whence it came , he may be restored into fellowship with them again , saith my Soul , William Rogers . 'T is true , that he has herein intimated that there is yet some hope for G. F. as that his Offence is not so great , nor he so irrecoverably hardned , but that he may possibly Repent , and be restored into Fellowship with the Lord's People ; that is , in his sence , with W. R. and his party : but then how fairly doth this contradict his Reason for omitting the Names of others , as not being without hope of their coming to a Sence and Repentance ? for by the same Reason , he should have omitted to name G. F. and others upon Record , so Infamously as he has done , if he be not without hope of their Repentance and Restoration , otherwise he has dealt very partially and unjustly in recording G. F. and others by Name , whilst there is the same Reason for to have omitted their Names , that he gives for omitting others ; thus this severe Judge , and Excommunicator , runs himself into a Labyrinth of Confusion ; and this is not all , but there lies another palpable Contradiction in the case , he appears for recording Persons Offences , and their Repentance also , as his great Book in Print contains matter of Record and Condemnation against many Friends , some by Name , and others not , all as being the Apostate and Innovator , from whom he distinguishes the Christian-Quaker in his Title page , and yet as Persons not Irrecoverably fallen , but that they may be restored to a true sight and sence unto Repentance ; but how Notoriously in this matter hath he contradicted the Testimony of his frequently termed two Ancient and Honourable Friends and Brethren , J. W. & J. S. cited in his fourth part , pag. 39. where they thus declare , viz. From that Inward Sence and Heavenly Understanding we have , we see no necessity to leave them ( i. e. Condemnations ) upon Record to Posterity , or retain them when the Sin is blotted out and remitted by the Lord , neither to be extended farther then the Offence is known , nor yet to continue longer than the Memory of the Offence abideth . Thus far W. R's said Brethren . But W. R. hath recorded Condemnations in his great Book in Print , that are like to be of farther Extent and longer Continuance then either the Offences supposed , or Memory of them otherwise would have been , and that in a very infamous and disgraceful manner against particular Persons by Name , whom yet upon serious thoughts , he dares not finally condemn as Persons Irrecoverable : See how apparently contradictory his Work is to it self , and to his Brethrens Testimony , he is contradicting them whom he advocates for ; so that his Judgment against particular Persons will be of less Credit with all Judicious Readers , because of its inconsistency . Disaffect . IX . W. R. has pleaded his being concerned to oppose an Erroneous and Persecuting Spirit , which he saith , He hath beheld entring among the Flock of God , and his being preserved by the Arm of the Lord's Power , in his acting to keep a Conscience void of offence , and his concern of Conscience to prepare his Manuscript , his frequent breathing unto the Lord that he might not bring forth an untimely Birth , but might answer the Witness of God in all Consciences : On all which he tells the Reader thus , viz. That to my inward Peace and Joy in the Lord , I can say , that I have the Evidence of his Spirit ( notwithstanding what any Man may say to the contrary ) that he hath owned my proceeding therein hitherto . These are very fair and specious Pretences , but his Work appears otherwise , an untimely Birth , and monstrous , both scandalous to Truth , and the People of God among us , called Quakers , as is evidently proved in this Treatise , and as it will farther appear , his Delusion under these fair pretences is the stronger , and the Witness of God hath searched and found it out , in his reproachful abusive Work ; By all which we find that he has not singly nor Innocently waited upon the Lord , nor in a right Spirit breathed unto him for Counsel ; but rather with a False Heart , a Double Mind and a Self-Will , inclined and bent towards this his perverse Work of Discord , which was conceived in Sin , and brought forth in Iniquity , and is found to be a confused , deformed , monstrous Birth ; we mean his great Book , stiled , The Christian-Quaker , &c. Though he farther pretends , that As he was seriously waiting on the Lord , he became satisfied in his Conscience , to forbear Reflecting in his Treatise on the Names of many reputed Quakers . Albeit he has so Characterized many , not named by him , that 't is easily understood whom he smites at , for all his great pretences in the matter , and his Forbearance , which he pretends was upon the Intercession of several of his Brethren , for which Submission to them , he cites the Apostles counsel to the Ephesians , To submit themselves to one another in the fear of God : Whereby it seems then he owns an outward submission to his Brethren , though he has much opposed outward Orders , Directions , Laws , Decrees , outward form of Government in the Church of Christ ; hereupon is a great part of his Contest throughout his Book ; yet he owns a Submission to his Brethren , in a matter , which was such a concern of Conscience to him ; but if any Direction , Advice or Counsel be given by an Assembly , Meeting or Church among us , such as he himself formerly has owned to be the Church of Christ , and joyned with in Counsel , then he can easily evade it on this pretence , It is not his Duty to obey , without inward Conviction ; It is no Bond upon him , when he sees it not ; They are not to submit to outward Orders , Instructions or Prescriptions of any Assembly , whether they see it to be their Duty or not ; it is not binding to them , unless they see it ; with these , and such like Exceptions is much of his Book made up , to shun that Authority and Right of Judgment , which Christ has given his Church and People , that answer his Witness , though these his Exceptions and Allegations , as applyed , contain a very Unjust Insinuation and Reflection upon our Meetings ( which are for the Service of Truth and one another in Love ) as if we imposed Rules and Methods for our Fellow Members , to observe in an Implicit Faith , or Blind Obedience , which has ever been far from us , and contrary to our Principle and Testimony since we knew any thing of Truth 's Inward Conviction and Work ; nor do our said Meetings give any Instructions or Advice ( relating to good Order in the Church , &c. ) to such as are Blind , Faithless or Senseless , and not belonging to us as a People , but to such whose Eyes are opened in some measure , to incite them to Faithfulness and Diligence in those things which the true Light will shew to be their Duty , as they are watchful in it , to receive and practise good Advice and Counsel from the Light , both in themselves and in their Elder Brethren in Christ Jesus . Disaffect . X. W. Rogers , to prove the Righteousness of his proceeding to Print and Publish his Book , gives this Account , dated , Bristol , the 10th of November , 1680. Postscript pag. 25 , 26 , 27. viz. The Question needfull to be answered is this , Whether 't is matter of Evil Fact in me to Publish in Print an Historical Relation of the Truth , and that for the clearing of my Conscience , & c ? The Answer in short is , Nay , to every Impartial and Unprejudiced Reader ; I doubt not , but that the Preface to the Reader , the Introduction to the First and Fourth Parts of this Treatise may give sufficient Satisfaction ; but lest the Ignorance and Blindness of any should be so great , as n●● from thence to perceive the Righteousness of my present proceeding to Print , or that the Partiality of any that do so , should so abound as to strengthen Evil Insinuations against me on that account , I have this to say , That such a● have been of Party against us ( concerned in the Publication hereof ) have been the first ( and Frequent ) Promulgators , by Declaration , by Manuscript and by Printing , that there hath been Divisions amongst the aforesaid People . [ Passing by ( at present ) his Impertinent Instances relating to Declaration and Manuscript , for perspicuity and brevity's sake , we will insist on his chief Instance that relates to Printing , which he gives to prove the Righteousness of his proceeding to Print , or to Promulgate or Publish by Printing ( according to his own Terms ) his pretended Historical Relation ; his Instance follows ] viz. But that which on this occasion is chiefly my concern , is to Evidence that there hath been a Publication of the aforesaid Divisions in Print , before the Publication hereof , and that by ( and on the behalf of ) some of G. Fox's Party . On the 8th Instant came to my hands two Sheets of Printed Paper , Entituled , An Epistle , &c. Anne Whitehead and Mary Elson the Subscribers — I should now proceed to cite a few Sentences out of it , which amounts to a Publication of Divisions . [ Thus far W. R. ] To evince the Righteousness of his proceeding to Print and Publish his great Book of Divisions , Be pleased to observe then , That what he alledges for Instance in this Case , to prove his Proceeding Righteous , bears this Sense , that the Instances he cites for this end , are not only Occasions and Causes justly provoking him to proceed to Print , but also , that they were all such Occasions given him before he proceeded to Print , or to Promulgate Divisions by Printing , which we judge are both very Unjustly pretended , and nothing parallel to his Work in his Book , nor demeriting any such publick Volumnious and Remaining Infamy and Reproach , as his Book contains against certain faithful Men in particular , and the People called Quakers in general . And now we will presently detect his Fallacy , and manifest Injustice in this his Principal Instance relating to his Printing . Query , Whether W. R. did not know in his own Conscience that he had proceeded to Print his Book some time before the 8th day of November , 1680 ? which he confesseth to be the time that the said two Sheets of Printed Paper came to his Hands . We Answer , Yes , he knew in his Conscience that he had Printed most of his Book before that Day or Time ; for he confesseth , Post. p. 24. in these words , Bristol , the 8th of November , 1680. ( which was the same day that the two Printed Sheets came to his Hands ) notwithstanding that all this Treatise , excepting the Postscript , Index and Errata is already Printed . So that all his Treatise ( excepting as is excepted ) was Printed before the two Printed Sheets came to his Hand , and therefore that could be no Reason of his proceeding to Print his Book , or to Promulg●te or Publish it by Printing , it being Printed before that Epistle . For Note also , That by W. R ' s own Letter to John Bringhurst , dated the 21st of the 8th Moneth , 1680. it appears , much of his Book , viz. of all the Five Parts was then already Printed , about Eighteen Days before the said Printed Epistle of two Sheets came to his Hands ( being about Eighteen Dayes from the 21st of the 8th Moneth , to the 8th of the 9th Moneth , 1680. ) In the said Letter to John Bringhurst ( the Printer ) W. R. adviseth him thus , viz. This Morning I received another small Parcel — I want two Sheets of the Third Part , from pag. 113. to pag. 128. and one Sheet of the Fifth Part , from pag. 69 , to 83. And when I have those Sheets , then the Sheets I shall have from thee will be as followeth . First three Sheets of the Preface . Of the First Part to page 72. Of the Second Part to pag. 80. Of the Third Part to pag. 136. All the Fourth Part , viz. to pag. 108. Of the Fifth Part to pag. 84. Not more to add , then to desire thy Expedition . — Thus W. R. in the said Letter , dated the 21st of the 8th Moneth , 1680. as before . By all which its apparent , First , That on the 21st of the 8th Moneth , 1680. much of W. R ' s Book was Printed , and received by him at Bristol ; two several Parts of it almost finish't , as appears by the pages . Secondly , That W. R. was then Earnest for the Expedition of it , that it might be Printed , which was about Eighteen Dayes before the said Epistle came to his Hands . And to be sure , his Book was put to the Press a considerable time before that ; the Printer saith , 't was begun withal in the Press in the Moneth called August , 1680. which was about or near two Moneths before the said Epistle ( alledged by him ) was in being ; for it was not delivered unto the Printer until the 25th of the 8th Moneth , 1680. which was Four Dayes after the date of W. R's said Letter to J. B. the Printer , which intimates so much of his Book then already Printed , and requires Expedition for the rest . Qu. But then why was W. R. so ready to catch up the said Epistle that came to his Hands but the 8th of November , 1680. for to make such a Principal Instance of it to prove the Righteousness and Reasonableness of his proceeding to Print his Book of Divisions ? seeing he knew in his Conscience he had proceeded so far in the Printing his Book so long before , and not only so , but confesseth the same 8th of November , 1680. That all his Treatise , excepting Postscript , Index and Errata , was then already Printed ? We can make no better of it , than that he was befool'd in his Craft , so as to manifest his own Fallacy and Unrighteousness in his Silly Pretences and Deceitful Subterfuges , and the plain Truth of it is , the said Epistle by Anne Whitehead and Mary Elson was so far from being the Cause of of W. R's Printing and Publishing his Contentious Book , that his Printing thereof was an Occasion of their Writing and Printing their Epistle , as they were concerned in Conscience , when they heard that W. R's Book was in the Press , and had been for some time Printing before they writ heirs , and they understanding what kind of Book his was ( when some Sheets of it were handed up and down ) tending to Strife and Division ; whereas their end in writing theirs was to warn Friends against the Spirit of Discord , and not against Persons by Name ; so that W. R. has not Imitated that Copy , what-ever Occasion he makes of it . If he alledges , that the Publication of his Book was not till after he met with the said Epistle . We Answer , That 's an Unjust and Silly Evasion again , only varying from his Terms Proceeding to Print ( for which he brings the Instance of their Epistle ) unto the Term Publication , which leaves him without his chief Plea of Righteousness in Printing . This Equivocal and Fallacious way of Writing and Pleading will not excuse or cover him , as an Innocent or Righteous Person in his proceeding to Print , or in his Allegations for himself therein , against others ; for he has granted Printing to be a Promulgation or Publication , as in his words [ Frequent Promulgators by Printing ] ( which is a Falshood ) and he has confessed , his Treatise was Printed when the said Epistle came to his Hands , being the 8th of November , 1680. so that in Printing his Book of Divisions , he did Promulgate or Publish it , only it was so Bulkey that he could not get it all Compleated , Bound up , and sold abroad , before the said Epistle was Printed ; however , that was Accidential , the Bigness , Trouble and Charge of his Book made it not so Expeditious as an Epistle of two Sheets , which no whit proves his Intention or Proceeding to be Righteous , in first putting his to the Press , and having gotten it Printed before the two Sheets came to his Hands ; besides , was not W. R. so earnest for Expedition , in the Printing his Book , that ( in its several Parts ) it was put into several Hands of the World's Printters , Persons not called Quakers ? and not only so , but being Printed , it appears to be designed to go abroad in the World. And further , if to evade the Charge of Fallacy and Injustice , Deceit and False cover laid on W. R. in this matter , he flies to his Gramatical sence of his Words , and pleads his Intention , &c. as thinking himself safe in both — 1st , We say his present proceeding to Print cannot in reason be confined to his Postscript , wherein the Words are — Nor Answer the SOME of the People called Quakers he tells of , that have judged him Wicked as for intending to Print against Friends , Post. pag. 25. ( whom he undertakes to Answer in that case ) nor vindicate him , as to his Historical Relation mentioned in the same page , which includes his Book , which cannot be confined to , nor included in his Postscript . 2dly , The Reasons he gives in his Postscript to prove himself Righteous in his proceeding to Print , cannot relate only to that his Postscript , but to his whole Book , because they areadded for a Supplyment to his Preface to the Reader , his Introduction to the First and Fourth Parts of his Treatise , which Preface and Introduction concern his whole Book , or Historical Relalation ( as he calls it ) and which Preface and Introduction he thinks may give sufficient satisfaction to every Impartial and Unprejudiced Reader ; but lest the Ignorance or Blindness of any should be so great , as not from thence to perceive the Righteousness of his present proceeding to Print , &c. he gives his Additional Reasons and Instances in his Postscript , the chief whereof is that relating to the two Printed Sheets which came to his Hands the 8th of November , 1680. as aforesaid , wherein the Supplymental Reason given , was more clearly to evince the Justness of his proceeding to Print , than he had done before in his said Preface or Introduction , as that it was even to prevent such great Ignorance and Partiality , as would hinder any from perceiving his Righteousness in proceeding to Print . 3dly , If W. R. says , That he thinks himself safe , both in his Intention and Gramatical Sense * of his Words , viz. That such as have been of Party against us , concerned in the Publication hereof , have been the FIRST and FREQUENT PROMULGATORS by DECLARATION , by MANUSCRIPT , and by PRINTING , that there have been Divisions among the aforesaid People , as thence concluding , the words being Conjunctive , only to import that FREQUENT cannot relate to each one abstractly , but to all joyntly , viz. to Publishing by Declaration , by Manuscript , and by Printing , and that he intended by PRINTING , only the said Epistle of two Sheets being Published before his Book came out of the Press . We say , that then he writes Fallaciously and Prevaricatingly ; for [ Frequent ] doth as well relate to Printing as to Declaration and Manuscript , wherein we cannot think that he intended only that there was but Once a Publication by Declaration , and but Once by Manuscript , and so but Once by Printing , as if only those three Publications , in these three wayes , did amount to make up the Frequent Publication intended ; for he quotes several Declarations and several Manuscripts , and but that One Epistle in Print , for his Printing ; as also his Intentions in Printing cannot be proved Righteous , by his Instance of that Epistle being publick before his Book ; for his Intention of Printing , as also his often Threatning to Print , was a long time before that Epistle ever was in being ; and when he gave his said Supplymental Reasons in his Postscript , on the 10th of November , 1680. he had Printed his Treatise , except the Postscript , Index and Errata , as he confesseth the 8th of November , 1680. being the same day that Epistle came to his Hands , and therefore his Intention of Printing and Publishing Divisions could have no Relation to that Epistle , as any Cause or Reason of his Intention ; And how could that Epistle be any Reason of his Printing , when it was not in being till after he had Printed a great part of his Book in the Five Parts of it ? 4thly , If he yet alledge , That in the Title Page of the said Epistle , 't is said to be Printed by Andrew Sowle , and to be sold at his Shop in Devonshire-Buildings , and that therefore he was the more concerned for the Publication of his Book , when it was Printed . To this we say , That Addition , shewing by whom it was Printed and Sold , was the Printer's own Addition , and not the Authors , and yet suitable enough for him to add , being cautioned in the same Title Page how far it was intended by the Authors to be published , being plainly Recommended to Friends in Truth , chiefly for the sake of the Weak and Unstable-minded , for Information and Encouragement in our Christian Unity and Society , held in the Spirit of Christ , both in Faith and Practice , as their words are ; so that the Advice , where to have that Epistle , was for Friends , to whom it was recommended , that they might know where to have it ; whereas W. R. has given no such Caution in his Title page , but leaves his whole Book , and Friends Reflected on therein , to the Censure and Judgment of the World , Unbelievers and Truth 's Adversaries , to the great Scandal and Reproach of Truth and Friends in it . Qu. But hath not W. R. placed the Publication of his Book upon a higher Motion and Necessity , than the occasion pretended of the aforesaid Epistle ? Answ. Yes , a far higher ; and what is it ? 'T is upon such a great concern of Conscience pretended , that the Publication of it could no longer be forborn . The Accounts he gives in the case are these , viz. So great a concern of Conscience lies on many to encourage the Publication thereof , as that we can no longer forbear , lest it should be reputed , that the Doctrine and Life of Christianity were wholly extinct among the aforesaid People [ as in his Preface . ] And pag. 77. 1st part , The Righteous God bears us Record , that the very reason why this Treatise is now prepared , is , because our very Consciences , on behalf of God's People , are concerned . [ Thus far William Rogers , William Ford , the Subscribers . Note , That these high Pretences of Conscience , both for the Preparation and Publication of their Book , as that they could no longer forbear , must needs be before 't was Printed ; here was two great concerns in the case , the one to Prepare it , the other to Print or Publish it by Printing , both which Concerns were before the aforesaid Epistle of A. Whitehead and M. Elson was in being ( at least , before ever W. R. knew or saw that Epistle ) and therefore that Epistle could not be the cause of such concern of Conscience to Prepare , Print or Publish W. R's great and Chargeable Book ; besides , it may be observed , that all the Allegations ( used by some of his Party ) for the Publication of his Book , as about G. F's not giving him a Meeting , or not giving it under his hand to meet him , appear but meer Pretences and slight Covers , having placed a Necessity to encourage the Publication thereof upon a higher and more absolute concern of Conscience , as namely , to prevent such a Misrepute , as that of the Doctrine and Life of Christianity being wholly extinct amongst the People called Quakers . And there 's not the least Colour or Pretence of Reason , that this Danger should be placed either upon the said Epistle , or upon G. F's not meeting W. R. in his time : This his pretence of such concern of Conscience is far higher than these . But if it shall yet be pretended by any , that G. F's not giving W. R. a Meeting , was cause of his publishing his Book . Then how Unjust , and grosly Unreasonable was it , to expose the Names of divers other Faithfull Friends in Print , and that to Infamy , without any such particular Offer to them , and Refusal on their parts ? Moreover , W. R. is so far from proving himself Just or Righteous in his proceeding to Print , by those Instances he gives of a Publication of Divisions by Declaration , by Manuscript , and by Printing , that his great Injustice and Iniquity therein appears , there being no just Comparison between these ( so far as he yet gives Instances ) and his great Book in Print , either as to the Nature , Quality or Quantity ; For , 1st , What he mentions of Declaration in their Meetings , if it were all true , it was not published in Print to the World until he himself did it ; neither do we understand , that such Unprinted Declaration can Equalize his Book , in the Pernicious Nature and Tendence of it , in many particulars , which are Scandalous to us as a People , and against divers honest Men by Name , and not only so , but 't is against Church-Government and Order among us . 2dly , The Forty Four Articles he mentions , were not in Print , nor the Paper of Sixty Six , nor the Narrative at Drawell , nor were these ever intended to be exposed in Print , or to the World , as his Book is , but to be reserved within the Church , till matters might be cleared , and Reconciliation and Union effected , which divers faithful Friends among us have earnestly desired and travelled for , whose Work and Reward is with the Lord , though this Perverse Spirit turns all into Bitterness , Gall and Wormwood . 3dly , And as to that Epistle written by a Publick Preacher , as he saith , Post. pag. 26. that was not in Print , nor any Persons by Name reflected on in it , though mention be made in it of Rents , Schisms , Contention , Strife , Distraction , Discord , &c. A faithful Testimony was therein given against the Spirit of Discord , Division and Separation , refering it to the Witness of Truth in all Consciences , and the Spirit of Judgment in themselves , to make the Application to Persons , and not by Name to Infamize any . G. Whitehead owns the said Epistle , and saith , he hath stood by it , and hopes ever to stand by the Testimony and tender Counsel therein , in the same Spirit that moved him to write it ; as also , that since W. R. has made such an occasion and pretence of it , to justifie his own proceeding to Print , he had done him more Right , if he had printed it together among others , in his Book , which Epistle , and the publick reading of it , was approved by divers of W. R's own Friends : And what if it were read in such a publick Meeting for the Worship of God within the City of Bristol , the 21st of the 11th Moneth , 1678. ( as he saith ) where some were present not accounted to be of the People called Quakers ? though there was but very few such there then , as Credible Account was given from Bristol ; but at that Meeting the People present were mostly Friends , as in an Account , dated , Bristol , the 25th of the 11th Moneth , 1678. And what though some others were present , and heard it read ? What knows he but it had a good Effect on some of them ? seeing Division , Contention and Discord have ( both before and since that ) happened in that Meeting , according as he has related in Print , there was the more need of such a Testimony going forth against such a Spirit of Contention and Discord , that hath so openly appeared in that place . 4thly , Neither is there any just or equal Comparison between the said Printed Epistle , and W. R. his great Invective Book , which tends to the Perpetual Reproach , Scandal and Infamy of divers Faithful Persons by Name , and of the People called Quakers , the Truth and Christian Religion professed by them ; whereas the said Epistle by Mary Elson and Anne Whitehead was not to Infamize any Friends or Professors of Truth by Name , but according to the Title , An Epistle for True LOVE , UNITY and ORDER in the Church of Christ , against the Spirit of Discord , Disorder and Confusion , &c. All which considered , W. R. hath manifested his Injustice in these his several Instances , as well as his apparent Fallacy and Impertinency in that one principal Instance of the said Printed Epistle , so that the Foundation of W. R's proceeding to Print is evidently proved Deceit and Falshood . But come on , we have dwelt some-what long upon this point , let 's now briefly sum up and present the Case in W. R. his own sence ( and see how far that will go ) thus , viz. The said Epistle of two Printed Sheets , given out by Anne VVhitehead and Mary Elson , amounting to a Publication of Divisions ( though Reflecting on no Persons by Name ) coming to my Hands the 8th of November , 1680. it was a great Provocation to me , and the chief concern upon me to Publish my Book of Eighty Sheets , or above , reflecting on many of the Chieftains among the People called Quakers , by Name in Particular , and upon the greatest part of that People in General , who own them , as also upon their Meetings that are for an Outward Form of Church-Government , Visible Orders , &c. as being Apostates and Innovators , &c. To all which it may be said , Oh! great Champion Scribe of the Schisme and Faction , and Popular Person ! wa st thou so provoked by two poor VVomen , with their but two Printed Sheets against the Spirit of Discord , that thou must needs revenge thy self with a Furious Confused Book of above EIGHTY Sheets in Print ? Is this thy Justice , Manhood and Valour so Excessively to vent thy Fury , for the sake of two such ( in thy esteem doubtless ) Inconsiderable persons , their two Sheets ? At this rate we may expect , that we shall so hugely provoke thee , by this Treatise , against thy work of Darkness and Confusion , that thou wilt severely pay us off with a Book of Five or Six Hundred Sheets at least ( but then thy Friends must very highly advance their Purses towards the Charge , if they 'l be so Mad or Silly . ) Be sure ( if thou writest against us ) make it a huge big Book , or else thou wilt not proceed according to thy former GREAT CONCERN OF CONSCIENCE and JUSTICE against the TWO Womens TWO Sheets , and many more because thereof . However , if thou pretends to make Answer or Reply hereunto , let it be as big as it will , let it but refer to holy Scripture , and be Argumentative , and it may probably be the more taken notice of ; but if it be a kind of History , made up of Stories , Reports ( and thy own Jealousies ) to expose Weaknesses , and to render Persons by Name Odious ; 't will then be No Answer , but a Dirty Revengeful Clamour , like much of thy Unchristian Book already extant , to thy ( and thy Abettors ) great Shame and Disgrace . Disaffect . XI . First Part , pag. 9. W. R. frames an Objection , in which are these words , viz. And that we ought to believe as the Church believes , compared with his 4th Sect. pag. 23. The Title whereof , with some other words objected by him follows , viz. Sect. 4. An Answer to the Third Position , deduceable from an Objection raised toward the Conclusion of the first Section , viz. That 't is Folly and Hypocrisie to profess our selves Members of the true Church , and yet not believe THUS as the true Church believes . VV. R. To this we say , We are altogether dissatisfied ( especially when we consider what a Body of Darkness hath entred under the Belief of this Position [ We must believe as the Church believes ] ▪ And pag. 24. May it not further be said , we know how Papists and Protestants describe their Church , &c. Observe . That herein our Adversary still persists in his course of Envy and Persecution , by thus seeking to render us as like Papists as he can , as if we were imposing an Implicit Faith , concerning our Assemblies , without Conviction , on the bare Terms of [ Believing as the Church believes ] which Imposition we Abhor , being alwayes for that Faith that 's Explicit , Clear and Evident , grounded upon the plain Evidence of the Spirit ; besides , to render us Odious and Obnoxious in this matter , W. R. hath Fallaciously wronged the Citation in his said 4th Section , and whereon he grounds his whole Section , leaving out the very foregoing words , which are the most Material and Explanatory words , as in the Title of his said Section , compared with the Book he took them out of , Entituled ; THE APOSTATE INCENDIARY REBUKED , &c. pag. 16. the words are these , viz. I affirm , That the true Church is in the true Faith that is in God , and we must either believe Thus as the true Church believes , or else it were but both a Folly and Hypocrisie to profess our selves Members thereof . See how plain the words are , principally relating to the Faith that is in God , which explains the matter ; but W. R. though in his first Sect. pag. 9. cites the words , viz. The True Church is in the True Faith , that is in God ; in his 4th Sect. he wholly leaves them out , and places his Exceptions and Answer upon the latter part , some-what varied into a Position , which he deduces from an Objection of his own framing , and then cryes out , We are altogether dissatisfied , when we consider what a Body of Darkness hath entred under the Belief of this Position , WE MUST BELIEVE AS THE CHURCH BELIEVES . Thus crookedly and perversly has he Scribbled , to put the Odium of POPERY upon us ; but if we should ask him , Is it not in it self true Doctrine , That the true Church is in the true Faith , that is , in God , and we must either believe thus [ i. e. in God ] as the true Church believes , or else it were but Folly and Hypocrisie to profess our selves Members thereof ? Dare he say , that to believe in God , as the true Church believes , is Unsound Doctrine ? But be it noted , how he hath contradicted himself in confessing to that which he hath made a Section against , as before ; see his Third Part , pag. 74. his words are these , viz. I confess the true Church is in the true Faith , and every Member thereof is in some Measure ( at least ) of the same Faith , that all the Elect of God are of , so that it may in Truth be said , every Member of the Church doth in some Measure believe as the rest of the Members do . Behold , here he hath granted the matter , which he hath made so much ado against , in his 4th Section of his 1st Part , aforesaid . Thus one while he Opposeth ; another while he Grants the Thing Opposed ; one while he Condemns ; another while Retracts ; but that we do not impute to his Ingenuity , but to his Enmity , Inadvertency , and Discomposedness and Prolixity in his writing . Disaffect . XII . W. R. first part , pag. 9. He frames the Objection , viz. 'T is true , Friends in the beginning were turned to the Light in their own Consciences as their Guide ; but when it pleased the Lord to gather so great a number into the Knowledge and Belief of the Truth , as were in few Years gathered , then the Heavenly Motion came upon G. F. as the Lord 's Anointed and Chosen , having the care of the Churches , as being the great Apostle of Christ Jesus , and as one whom the Lord had ordained to be in that place amongst the Children of Light in this our day , as Moses was amongst the Children of Israel in his day , to set forth Methods and Forms of Church-Government , and to establish Monethly and Quarterly-Meetings of Men , and of Women distinct from Men , &c. Observe . Here he has heaped up divers matters to make up this Objection , as one scraping up and devising what he can to render us odious ; never was any such intire Objection made by any real Quaker ; he has framed it much like an open Adversary ( and then deduceth his own Positions and Inferences ) to render Friends , who are for outward Order and Methods in the Church , not only weak and silly in their Arguing , but Apostates from the Light in their Consciences , to which they were turned in the beginning . The design of this whole Objection forged by him , is to render us a People departed from the Light and Law of Christ within , to set up Man and Men's Precepts instead thereof , which is wicked and scornful , tending also to render the very Profession of the heavenly Motion Contemptible ; which heavenly Motion ( in opposition to his Contempt and Scorn ) we affirm , came not only on G. F. but also on many other faithful Brethren , for due Methods and Order , as to Church-Government , no wayes repugnant to the Light of Christ within . And for G. F. though an Apostle and Servant of Christ , yet to be in this our Gospel day , in that very place amongst the Children of Light , as Moses was amongst the Children of Israel in his day ; This Comparison we own not , nor does G. F. own it ; for it is to render the Gospel day of Christ no brighter than Moses's Day under the Law , and the Children of Light in this Gospel Day , as in no further Dispensation than the Children of Israel under the Law ; but such Doctrine we utterly disown , neither does G. F. own the Comparison , but as a faithfull Servant of Christ , his Labour was and is to turn People to Christ , his Light and Spirit in them ; neither he nor we do own any Sect Masters , nor making of Sects among us , but seek to bring all to the Universal Spirit and Unity , and Bond of Peace in Christ Jesus , and we all as Servants of Christ , and Sufferers for his Name and Testimony ; and do own the Dispensation of Christ , as far excelling that of Moses , as being more bright , inward and spiritual ; for thus far only the Comparison in Scripture is between Moses and Christ , Heb. 3. 1 , 2 , 3. Consider the Apostle and High-Priest of our Profession , Christ Jesus , who was faithful to him that appointed him , as also Moses was faithfull in all his House ; for this man was counted of more Glory than Moses , inasmuch as he who buildeth the House , hath more honour than the House ; and Moses was faithfull in all his House as a Servant , but Christ as a Son over his own House ; see vers . 4 , 5 , 6. But farther observe our Adversaries Jealousie in this Case , namely , in his 4th Part , pag. 83 , 84. W. R. in his Letter to G. F. dated , Bristol , the 27th of the 1st Moneth , 1677. Among other things , this Jealousie enters me , viz. That thou lookest upon thy self that man , at least , in whom the Son of God hath appeared to give forth his Law * ( and to be recorded as his Law ) under the Dispensation of the Gospel , even as Moses was the giver forth of the Law in that day , if this be so , &c. And in his Margenal Note on the same passage , he hath these words , viz. The Reader may take notice , that G. F. in his Letter on the 14th of the 11th Moneth , 1676. hints at something written by me to him , thus ; And thou ( meaning my self ) sayest , that there is a Spirit risen at this day , that gives many occasion to be Jealous , that thou ( meaning G. F. ) art looked upon by some AS THAT Prophet which Moses testified of , that God would raise up , &c. And thou sayst , Christ is that Prophet that is to be heard , &c. and he is the only Lawgiver , and no outward man. Observe . We testifie against W. R's Jealousie , and the Jealousie of those he represents against G. F. as tending to Persecution , and that the Jealousie of his being looked upon by some , as that Prophet which Moses testified of , that God would raise up ( viz. Christ Jesus ) is not only in it self a Jealousie tending to Cruelty and Persecution , but a Jealousie that proceeds from Enmity and Darkness ; and not only so , but this Jealousie is contradicted by W. R. his own Jealousie , that has entred him , viz. of G. F's looking upon himself that Man IN whom the Son of God hath appeared ; and not only so , but confesseth , that G. F. thus answers , viz. Then is not this Prophet ( meaning Christ ) to be in man to give forth his Law , & c ? And what I am I am by the Grace and Love of God , &c. 4th part , pag. 83 , 84. [ Marg. Note . ] Mark how W. R. has gone about to accuse and bespatter G. F. and others , with his own and others Jealousies , though inconsistent , as well as he shews himself Impertinent and Envious in his writing against the Servants of Christ , who confess Christ to be in Man , and not themselves to be Christ. Disaffect . XIII . W. R. 1st part , pag. 4. And that whosoever should endeavour by Outward Wayes and Means to establish an Outward Government and Outward Rules , Orders , Laws or Prescriptions OVER the Heritage of God , under the Notion of CHRIST's Government , would be found Invaders of Christs Prerogative ; this compared with what he writes , pag. 13. viz. That Spirit that would remove us from that Teacher that cannot be removed into a Corner , to follow the Dictates of Fallible Men. Observe . First , We judge both these are unjust Reflections , as well as unjustly applyed ; for we know no Outward Rules , Orders , Laws or Prescriptions practised among us , that are the meer Dictates of Fallible men , but such as Christ is originally the Author of , and which answer his pure Law of Love of Truth within . Secondly , Our Adversary to prove us and our Meetings Apostate from the inward Teacher , is very uncertain , and frequently various in his Opposition , as one while , 't is against Outward Rules , Orders , &c. another while , against them , as being the Dictates of Fallible men ; another while , as being imposed or urged with too much Severity ; another while , as Imposed on our Fellow Members without Conviction , Sight or Sence of their Duty therein ; another while , as being Innovations , and such as Christs Light within parswades not to : And so he is at a loss in his Uncertainty , not assigning what those Rules , Orders , Laws or Prescriptions are , that are liable to all these Exceptions , which while he does not , his Work , and great Clutter and Noise therein , appears very Impertinent and Contentious , Silly and Rediculous . And what are his chief Allegations against the Mens Meetings of our Friends ? See what follows . Disaffect . XIV W. R. 1st part , pag. 16. That Mens Meetings have most usually CONSISTED of Men Uncertain in Numbers , as well as to Qualifications , may assume Power over Conscience , under the Notion of the Church of Christ. Pag. 7. Persons Uncertain in Qualifications , do take upon them to call themselves a General Meeting . Query , But do these Meetings most usually consist of such Persons Uncertain in Qualification ? No , we deny that , and take his own words to shew his Inconsistence therein , viz , W. R. pag. 12. Though we dare not conclude , that none in those Meetings were Members of the Church . Observe . Then they are not all Uncertain in Qualifications . Disaffect . XV. W. R. pag. 7. [ concerning Friends said Meeting ] To be very plain , we cannot but appeal to the Consciences of all such honourable Friends , who are both Intelligent and Impartial , whether some who have usually there assembled , or may pretend Right to be Members thereof , have not been false Accusers , and Man-Pleasers , and MANY OF THEM a sort of Persons , who being Lovers of Preheminence , and Time-Servers , take that as an Opportunity to appear unto others , that which they are not in themselves ? Observe . These Accusations we do judge are not only Scandalous against many Friends , but tending to the great Reproach and Scandal of our said Meeting , and the Truth professed among us . Disaffect . XVI . W. R. 1st part , pag. 11. Sect. 3. 'T is well remembred , that that one Man G. F. went some Years past into many parts of this Nation , advising Friends to hold such Meetings , viz. Monethly and Quarterly , and in many places his Counsel was readily embraced ; but for our parts , we understood not at that day that it was designed by him , or any else , that those Meetings should not only be accounted the Church , but also such as professed the Truth , ought to believe as this Church believes ; had he so exprest himself , Testimonies would have risen as a Flood against such Darkness ; for this would have plainly appeared to us to have opened a Door whereby that Babylonish Rubbish , which we had been long testifying against , might have been exalted in one day . Observe . This passage we judge does greatly bespeak the Mans Enmity and perverse Jealousie , both against G. F. and those Meetings , to render him one that has acted upon some Hidden , Selfish and Unchristian Design , to set up an absolute Dominion in and by those Meetings , over the Faith and Consciences of their Brethren ; which we utterly testifie against , and look upon it to be very grosly Scandalous and Reproachful ; for the very Intent and Design of those Meetings hath been from the beginning manifest to be for the Service of the Lord , his Truth and People , in the Unity of true Faith and Love , as Fellow-helpers one of another . Query , And why may not these Meetings be accounted the Church , or any of them a Church of Christ , when gathered in his Name and Fear ? Has not W. R. counted them such formerly ? Are none of them now worthy of the Name Church , in his Esteem ? Would he Unchurch them all at once ? if so , why does he come at any of them then ? But see his 3d part , pag. 78. what he confesseth , viz. That the Word CHURCH is most used in Scriptures with respect to Particular Congregations or Assemblies ; and pag. 79. Where two or three are gathered together in Christs Name , there is the Church of Christ. And dare he say , there is not so many as two or three that gather together in Christ's Name among us ? No ; he has confest , He dare not conclude , that none in those Meetings were Members of the Church , 1st part , pag. 12. Thus he shews his Uncertainty in his Gain-sayings . Disaffect . XVII . W. R. pag. 14. 1st part , An Eminent Person , professing Truth , being at Bristol , did take occasion to signifie at a Mens Meeting held in that City , to this Effect , That in London , and other parts of this Nation , where such Meetings were usually held , the Sence of the Generality hath been taken for the Sence of such Meetings ; comparing this with this Doctrine frequently of late published amongst us , That the Apostacy shall never enter the generality more ; doth give us just occasion to be Jealous , that our Opposers , for the carrying on of THEIR DESIGNS against us , have contrived this Method of carrying all things by the Generality , or Major Number of Voices . Observe . He draws Inferences from his own perverse Jealousie still , which we affirm are Unjustly deduced from what here he falsly pretends doth give just occasion thereof ; for such Designs and Contrivance to carry all things by the Major Number of Voices , we plainly disown ; but by the Sence and Influence of the Power of God , and Demonstration of Truth , and where that makes the generality of one accord , 't is no Design or Contrivance against Persons . Query , We ask him , if he believes a general Apostacy shall come over the Church of Christ , or enter the generality thereof in these latter dayes ▪ seeing he seems so much concerned against such a Doctrine , as that , the Apostacy shall never enter the generality more ; how then doth ▪ he consist with his own Confession , 3d part , pag. 77. viz. My Faith is , that a Remnant will be preserved so watchful , as that being built on the Rock , Christ , the Gates of Hell shall never prevail against them . Disaffect . XVIII . W. R. pag. 21. 1st part , Marginal Note , This Sentence , as Heirs of the Gospel of Life and Salvation ; take your Possessions , of late Years frequently expressed — by way of Encouragement , to continue Mens and Womens Meetings — By which means 't is much doubted , that some Ignorant People have concluded , that frequenting those Meetings is an Evidence that they are Heirs of Life and Salvation . Observe . He is now upon his doubts , Reflecting , by way of Inference , upon he knows not whom among us ; and what is this , but to render some Men or Women , or both , among Friends , both Silly and Ridiculous , as taking up such an Ignorant Conclusion , as that their frequenting those Meetings were Evidence , that they are Heirs of Life and Salvation ( which consists in the Power of Christ ) What Silly and Tedious Work has he made from his Doubts , false Jealousies and Prejudice ! Disaffect . XIX . W. R. 1st part , pag. 42. That the meaning of this Exhortation , frequently uttered , Have an Eye to the Brethren , is chiefly meant with respect to that ( i. e. General ) Meeting ; this we take to be both Limitation and a Design of Imposition . Observe . This we take to be a Dark and Causless Reflection : Whom doth he accuse with this frequent Exhortation , and Design of Imposition ? We deny any such Design . Disaffect . XX. W. R. 1st part , p. 46. And now , as to the meaning of the word Church-Government ( in the sense of our Opposers ) we take it to be thus , viz. That some , who account themselves Members of the Body of Christ , claim a Power to Rule over other some , if not all the rest , and give forth Sentences , Directions or Orders , which they ought to own , receive or obey , though they may pretend they see it not their Duty . Observe . This still we deem a Dark and Implicit way of smiting , and may be construed to extend farther than can be proved , and that to the Reproach of such Directions , Orders , &c. as are really necessary and convenient ; we own no such a Claim of a Power to Rule OVER Christs Members , or over their Consciences ; what Gospel-Power we have , 't is given us , not claimed by us , as he imagins ; besides , W. R. confesseth , pag. 8. That 't is taken for granted , that the Authority of all those Meetings ought to be the Power of God ; then we say , this Power gives forth no Sentences , Directions or Orders in the Church of Christ ; but such as the Light will give his Members a Sight and Sence of , as to their true Use and Service , as they wait in it . By Church-Government , we understand the Government of Christ in his Church , who hath his Ministers , Servants and Instruments therein , as he alwayes had in his Church , when gathered into visible Order and Society . W. R. 1st part , pag. 46 , 47. We think it necessary to quote those Scriptures , from whence ( so far as ever we understood ) the most pertinent Arguments might be produced to prove Church-Government , Mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. we find Christ thus saying , Moreover , if thy Brother shall Trespass against thee , go tell him his Fault ; if he will not hear thee , take with thee one or two ; and if he shall neglect to hear them , tell it to the Church ; but if he neglect to hear the Church , let him be unto thee as an Heathen Man : Verily , I say unto you , whatsoever ye shall Bind in Earth , shall be Bound in Heaven . Compare this Scripture , touching the Trespass of one Brother against another , with what Paul writes , 1 Cor. 6. 1 , 2 , 4. Dare any of you , having a matter against another , go to Law before the Unjust ? Do ye not know that the Saints shall judge the World ? If then ye have Judgment of things pertaining to this Life , set them to judge who are leaft esteemed in the Church . We REASONABLY conclude , that the words of Christ and of the Apostle ONLY * hinted at either PERSONAL Offences , or Differences touching worldly Matters , and that therein the Duty of the Church was only to Exhort to submit to their Counsel , which if they did not , they might justly be esteemed as Heathen men ; but this is nothing to the Purpose of those , who have approved a Plea for such a Church-Government as claims a Power † of deciding matters relating to Conscience , and outward things also , on the occasion of Differences raised touching Worldly Estate ; and that others ought to obey such Decisions , which in its natural Consequence , hath ( as we take it ) no less tendency , than to claim Power over our Properties , as well as Consciences . Observe . In these Passages we judge our adversary has writ very Confusedly & Contradictorily ; for , 1st , he grants from the words of Christ and the Apostle , that the Church ought to be heard , & to judge in Personal Offences , and Differences in Worldly Matters ; yea , that therein the Duty of the Church was to Exhort to submit to their Counsel . Query , What Counsel , if not tending to decide the Difference ? But , 2dly , he undoes that again , in opposing the Churches Power of deciding matters relating to Conscience , and outward things also , on occasion of Differences raised touching Worldly Estate , as tending to claim a Power over Properties , as well as Consciences ; which is not only Contradictory , but unjustly deduced ; for in that the Church is to be heard , even in Personal Offences or Differences , and to Exhort to a Submission touching Worldly Matters , as he grants ; and in those matters , the least esteemed in the Church have power to judge . This is not to claim a power over the Properties of others , as he very unjustly chargeth ; but by a right Judgment to compose the Differences ; and set them to Rights , each man in his own , that they may not wrong one another in their Properties , nor go to Law with each other . But whereas W. R. would bind up the words of Christ and the Apostle , as ONLY hinting at Personal Differences touching Worldly Matters , we find him again Inconsistent with himself , in his 3d part , pag. 36. on the words of Christ , Mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. in these words , viz. W. R. Perhaps some may object thus , This relates not to outward Affairs , but to Offences that are of a Spiritual Nature — In Answer , it may be , said as to that the Scripture is wholly silent , and therefore EVERY CASE wherein one Brother may Trespass against another , may according to RIGHT REASON be comprehended in it [ Thus far W. R. ] Hence observe , his Inconsistence is plain , 1st , on pretence of a Reasonable Conclusion , he Limits the words of Christ and the Apostle , and so the Church's Power therein , to judge and counsel in that case , only to Differences touching Worldly Matters . 2dly , He grants , that Every Case ( wherein one Brother may trespass against another ) may be comprehended in it ( that is , in what Christ saith , Mat. 18. 17. ) and that according to Right Reason , which Every Case may therefore include Cases relating to Conscience , or Offences of a Spiritual Nature , as well as those about Worldly Concerns , Outward Properties , &c. Those that are Spiritual have Power from Christ to judge also concerning a Mistaken and Offending Conscience , and a Wrong Spirit , without Usurpation . And 't is no difficult matter for the least Child of Light to give a right and absolute Judgment in the case of our Adversaries conscience , even as to his high pretences of Conscience to bring forth his great Book , which is filled with Envy , Confusion and false Jealousies , That his Conscience therein is not a Good ▪ Conscience , 't is not a Conscience void of Offence towards God and Man , but very Offensive to both . And that his Contradiction is obvious , in his ONE WHILE limiting the words of Christ and the Apostle ( Mat. 18. 15. 1 Cor. 6. ) ONLY to Personal Offences about Outward Matters , and that upon pretence of a Reasonable Conclusion ; ANOTHER WHILE , granting that in the words of Christ , Mat. 18. 17. EVERY CASE may be comprehended , wherein one Brother may Trespass against another , and that according to RIGHT REASON , whereby he has set his RIGHT REASON in Contradiction to his REASONABLE CONCLUSION ; You may see what a Master of Reason this Person is . In pursuance of his Charge against us , of claiming power over the Properties and Consciences of Believers , he proceeds thus , viz. Disaffect . XXII . W. R. 1st part , pag. 47. We are sensible that many Friends will be even startled at this , and ready to query , Are there any such amongst the People called Quakers ? We Answer , Yes verily ; and that those who may be accounted Chieftains too , viz. those who approved in the Second Dayes Meeting at London the before-cited Book of R. B. relating to Government in the Church . Observe . His charge of claiming Power over the Properties as well as Consciences of Believers , upon those counted Chieftains among the People called Quakers , and the Second Dayes Meeting at London , we do judge to be very Scandalous as well as Unjust , and tending to render us the People called Quakers Obnoxious to the Civil Government , as assuming an Arbitrary and Absolute Dominion over the Properties and Consciences of others , which is an Abhorence to us . And what he alledges out of R. B.'s Book in the case , does not appear to us any proof of his charge against us , being rightly and ingeniously considered , as to what R. B. affirms , of the Church of Christ having power in some cases that are matters of Conscience to give positive Sentence or Decision , which may be obligatory upon Believers : We would ask this Opposer , if in no cases of Conscience the Church of Christ hath power to give such positive Sentence as is Just and Righteous ? ( for the true Church neither pretends nor claims any other ) if she hath , then whether such Sentence be not obligatory to other Believers concerned ? And then whether there can be any Just pretence for a Believer to refuse to submit , as not seeing that his duty which is Just and Equal ? which no doubt but the Light of Christ within will discover and oblige him to , if he obey it ; and therefore W. R. his Inference , that this Meaning and Government over the Consciences of Believers , he takes to be contrary to the Principle of Truth , and Liberty we have in Christ Jesus , appears to us both Perverse and Impertinent ; for all just Sentences given , and Decision made , either by the Church of Christ , or faithful Members thereof , is done in his Service , and according to his Mind , and in Subjection to his Power , and therein the Dominion over the Conscience is his Dominion , which is neither claimed nor assumed out of his hands by his Church , or any faithful Members thereof ; we claim no Power , nor assume any Dominion of our selves , the power and dominion over Conscience is Christ's , and we are but his Ministers or Servants ; but it appears , our Adversary allows the Church of Christ no Power in cases of Conscience , to give positive Sentence or Decision , which may be Obligatory upon Believers ; if he saith he doth , then why does he oppose affirming the Church hath such Power ? But to proceed upon his Scandalous Charge against the second dayes Meeting in London , see what he further saith , pag. 51 , 52. 1st part , viz. Disaffect . XXIII . W. R. Some there are amongst the People called Quakers , who may be accounted Chieftains too , that approve of a Plea for Government among themselves , which in its natural Consequence hath no less Tendency than to claim a power over our Properties as well as Consciences ; for proof whereof , we say , the second Dayes Meeting of Ministring Friends in London took upon them the Approbation of the aforesaid Book relating to Government , whereby they are intituled to the matter therein contained : compared with what he saith , pag. 52. viz. saying in our Hearts , blessed be the Lord , that neither the second Dayes Meeting , nor those who are at Unity with them , as Approvers of the said Book , have any Jurisdiction over our Properties , &c. Observe . In these passages we do still positively judge , that our Adversary has grosly Scandalized our said Meeting in London , as claiming a Power and assuming a Jurisdiction over their Properties , &c. and so hath rendred the said Meeting Arbitrary , and usurping a Dominion in things Spiritual and things Temporal , which appears to us Horrid and Odious , tending to expose the People called Quakers to Suffering and Ruin by the Temporal Power and Government . And his principal Instance for proof of his Charge against our said Meeting in London , we cannot judge amounts to any real proof thereof ; he takes it out of R. B's Book , Entituled , The Anarchy of the Ranters , &c. pag. 37. in these words , viz. In what Cases , and how far this Government Extends ; and first as to Outwards and Temporals , pag. 39. in the second place this order reacheth the taking up and composing of Differences as to outward things ; We do boldly Aver , that as a People gathered together by the Lord unto the same Faith , and distinguished from all others by our joynt Testimony and Sufferings , that we have Power and Authority to decide and remove these things . We request the Friendly Reader to note this Instance , that there is not one Word in it , that either in it self , or Natural Consequence , amounts to a proof of his Charge against us , or our said Meeting , that is , of claiming a Power or assuming a Jurisdiction over the Properties of Friends or others ; but only a Power given us in Truth to compose , decide , and remove Difference in outward things among our selves , as a People gathered by the Lord into the same Faith , and to make no other composure or decision thereof , than what consists with Truth , as appears more fully in the Words following the same passage , in R. B's Book , quoted by our Adversary , as where R. B. saith , pag. 40. If the Truth we profess have not Efficacy as to reconcile us among our selves in the matters of this World , if we be forced to go out to others for Equity and Justice , because we cannot find it among our selves , how can we expect to invite them to come among us ? This with many other passages in R. B's said Book , together with his own Explication thereupon , dated , Aberdene Prison , the 6th of the 1st Moneth , 1679. cited at large by W. R. in his third part , from pag. 99 , to pag. 122. We do at least really suppose , doth fully clear both him and our said Meeting from any such Imputation , as either Assuming or Exercising an absolute Jurisdiction , Power or Dominion over mens properties in outward things ; for R. B. affirmeth , That they have greatly mistaken him , who did suppose that he did Ascribe to Friends an absolute Jurisdiction over men's Properties in outward things ; nor was our said Meeting in London , or any of us , in the least , designed or principled to any such thing ; whose Ox or whose Ass have we taken , & c ? Therefore hath our Adversary most grosly mis-represented and abused us therein , to the great scandal and reproach of us , and the Holy Truth professed by us . As to the taking up and composing of Differences among our selves as to outward things , and R. B's avering , That as a people gathered together by the Lord unto the same Faith , we have Power and Authority to decide and remove these things . Against this W. R. immediatly testifies in these Words , viz. Disaffect . XXIV . W. R. first part , pag. 51. This we testifie is repugnant to the Light of Christ Jesus within us , and Testimony of the Scriptures of Truth without us ; for as Christ's Kingdom is not of this World , so 't is not likely that his Members should by his Authority claim a Jurisdiction in the matters relating to this World ; and if Christ himself , when he was desired by a certain man to bid his Brother divide the Inheritance with him , refused to be a Judge in that matter relating to Property , when desired by one party , saying , Who made me a Judge over you : How much more unreasonable is it for his Members to assume a Jurisdiction when desired by neither party , & c ? Observe . We look upon this Testimony in the first place Unsound , and the Allegation Impertinent ; for , 1st , That as a People of the Lord , or Church of Christ , we have Power to compose Differences as to outward things ; This is neither repugnant to the Light of Christ within , nor to the Testimony of the Scriptures without us ; see 1 Cor. 6. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. Ma● . 18. 15 , 16 , 17. 2dly , [ claim a Jurisdiction ] What Jurisdiction do Christ's Members claim by his Authority , other then what he himself has given them , viz. to Counsel , Advise and Admonish , for the ending of Differences , and to give true Judgment . 3dly , What does Jurisdiction mean properly , but a pronouncing right Equity or Justice , though in the common Law it is Power and Authority to minister and execute Laws , which in a Gospel Way and Order is not excluded the Church of Christ , seeing the Law shall go forth of Sion ? 4thly , Christ's refusing to be a Judge in that matter , relating to property , when desired by one party , Luk. 12. 13 , 14. argues not , that none of his Members , Church or Saints have power to judge in matters relating to outward Property ; for that were to contradict the Apostle's Testimony , 1 Cor. 6. 3. Know ye not that we shall judge Angels ; how much more things that pertain to this Life ? 5thly , That of Luke 12. 13 , 14. alledged , proves not that either Christ had not Power and Right to judge among his Disciples in matters relating to this World , nor yet that the Saints , or his Members , were altogether to refuse judging in matters relating to Property among themselves , or them of the same Faith. 6thly , In the Scripture alledged , Luke 12. 13. its said , One of the company said unto him , Master , speak to my Brother that he divide the Inheritance with me . It is not said , 't was one of his Disciples : Nor would it have been Judicial for him to have given Judgment in the matter , upon the motion and determination of one pa●ty assigning what he would have done in 's own case aforehand , and whose fault Christ seems to reprehend in the following Words , Luk. 12. 15. Take heed and beware of Covetousness ; for a man's Life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth . Nor was it so properly Christ's Ministry and Work , to be concerned in determining those outward matters of Property , having given a higher Ministry and sufficient Law , Light and Judgment in mens Consciences to determine what 's Right , and to do Right in those cases , especially in his Church and Followers . The Lord is exalted when Sion is filled with Judgment and Righteousness . And now , whereas R. B. pleads for the Church of Christ having Power in some cases of Conscience , to give a positive Sentence or Decision , which may be obligatory upon Believers . This W. R. opposeth , as being a Government over the Consciences of Believers , contrary to the Principle of Truth , and Liberty they have in Christ Jesus , pag. 48. because his Plea is for a Liberty , for a Believer to refuse to submit on account of not seeing it his Duty . This is still to divide the Church of Christ , and Believers , as if the Church did see , and Believers were blind , which is Absurd and Ignorant . He now neither allows the Church power in cases of Conscience , nor outward things , to give positive Sentence or Judgment , to decide difference , pag. 48 , & 51. but both these he has sufficiently contradicted , 1st , in concluding the words of Christ and the Apostle , Mat. 18. and 1 Cor. 6. did concern Personal Offences , or Differences touching Worldly Matters : 2dly , In granting , that Every Case wherein one Brother may Trespass against another , may be comprehended in it . But now , to his Opposition against the Churches Judgment , set case , the Church of Christ in some , or any matters of Conscience or Property ( where a Difference is ) doth give a positive Sentence or Judgment , which in it self is Just and Reasonable . Our Opposer is for a Liberty for Believers to refuse to submit , on account of not seeing it their Duty ; that is to say , That Believers , who are Members of Christ's Church , may refuse Submission to their Brethren in things that are in themselves Just and Reasonable ( according to the Law of Truth in the Conscience ) on the pretence , of not seeing it their Duty , which is a most Blind and Irrational way of pleading and arguing ; and we can make nothing of it , but what tends to Confusion , Rebellion and Ranterism , and to a Contempt of the Church of Christ , and an undervaluing of the Light of Truth and Righteousness , which is in all true Believers ready to engage in a concord , in whatsoever things are Honest , Just and Reasonable . And that which aggravates the Offence of our Adversary is his Fathering this Contradiction and Opposition , which he would make in the Church of Christ , ( and this Liberty for Believers refusing to submit to this Church ) upon the Liberty that is in Christ Jesus ; which is as Absurd as to tell us , the Church of Christ may in some things have a Liberty in Christ to give a Righteous Judgment , both in matters of Conscience and Property ; but Believers , who are Members of the same Church , must have a Liberty in Christ to refuse to submit to the same Judgment ; and not only so , but a liberty in Christ to plead , That they see it not to be their Duty , as the Reason of such their refusal . What a large extent would he make this Liberty in Christ Jesus ! and how Contradictory to it self ! God preserve his People from this Libertine Spirit . But he has contrarywise stated the matter , which may be taken for both an Answer and Confutation to himself , 1st part , pag. 43. where he confesseth plainly thus , viz. Some may run into Looseness , and say , The Light in Conscience condemns me not , and therefore 't is the care of Faithfull Brethren to appear as Watchmen over the Flock , WE SAY SO TOO , and those who approve themselves Watchmen , will endeavour to convince such , who in very deed run into Looseness , &c. that though they may pretend , the Light condemns them not , yet that their Deeds are Evil , and that the Light doth condemn the same , though they may be hardned and see it not . Note , Now he has granted some to be Watchmen over the Flock , and their care as such , and that the Blindness and false Liberty is placed upon such as run into Looseness , and become hardned , and not upon any Innocent Members of the true Church , or tender-hearted Believers , whose Liberty is in Christ Jesus ; and this Blindness and Hardness cannot excuse them in Sin or Evil , whether in Omission or Comission , because the Light doth condemn the same , and both their Blindness and Hardness being effects of their disobedience to the Light of Christ in them , Ignorance can be no excuse for Sin , when it self is Sin ; as also W. R. confesses , pag. 52. That the Church of Christ hath Power to Admonish the Parties differing to their Duty , and if they refuse to take their wholsome Counsel , may then declare such Unworthy of their Society ; whereby he has granted the Churches Power , both of Admonition and giving Judgment against those that refuse the Churches wholsome counsel and admonition ; so that 't is plain , that Power of Judgment and Rejection he has granted the Church , in which he has granted the Authority and Government pleaded for by us ( for Power of Coertion or Force we claim not ) and this leaves no room for W. R. or any else , to plead a Liberty in Christ for the Members of his Church , either for not seeing it their Duty to practise such Counsel , or for refusing to submit on that score . Disaffect . XXV . W. R. 1st part , pag. 52. For any Members under the Notion of the Church to say , We have Power to decide and remove these things , without the assent of the Parties differing , is an Usurpation ; and that the Assent of Parties was not intended by the Approvers of the said Book of Government , is evident to us , for that there is not in any part of the said Book one Tittle to that purpose . Here are two gross Untruths in this Passage , insinuated against us . First , [ Without the Assent of the Parties Differing ] When did any of us so pretend a Power to remove the Difference ? We cannot force Unjust & Injurious Persons to make Restitutions for Wrongs done , but leave them to the outward Power to subject them , to common Law and Justice , though we have Power by Perswasive Means with those among us , who design nothing but Justice and Right to all men , that they may do accordingly . Secondly , That the Assent of Parties was not intended by the Approvers of the said Book ; is a very gross Abuse and Untruth ; for it is most acceptable to us , as we are a People , for Peace and Concord , to have all Parties differing among us , assent to a just decision , and fair end of the Differences , by faithful and competent Persons among our selves , to prevent their going to Law one with another . Thirdly , And if the very words [ Assent of Parties differing , to the Decision of honest men in the Church , skilled in the Matters ] be not expressed , yet we take the thing to be all along implyed in the said Book , viz. the assent of the Parties differing to be concluded by some or other Judicious Persons in the Church , and not to go to Law before Unbelievers ; there is much in the said Book will prove that their Submission in that case is urged . His telling us , pag. 50. That the Author to the Hebrews speaks nothing of the Churches Authority as Judges , is still to lessen the Churches Authority , contrary to the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostle , viz. If he will not hear the Church , let him be unto thee as an Heathen Man , Mat. 18. And The Spiritual man judgeth all things ; the Saints shall judge the World ; Know ye not , that we shall judge Angels ? how much more things that pertain to this Life ? 1 Cor. 6. And wherein judge Angels , but in higher things than those of this Life ? therefore the Church is not to be denyed a Judgment in those lower things pertaining to this Life . Disaffect . XXVI W. R. pag. 48 , 49. Mixt and Uncertain Assemblies , as to Number and Qualification , may call themselves the Church , and under that Notion , give forth Orders , Rules and Sentences , telling the rest of those whm they account their Fellow Members , 'T is your Duty to Obey , though you pretend you see it NOT. Observe . This we take to be not only a slight , but an Unjust and Implicit Charge upon our Assemblies ; therefore we demand Proof of any Assembly or Assemblies among us , that under the Notion of the Church , have given forth Orders and Rules in these Terms , as telling the rest of their Fellow-Members , 'T IS YOUR DUTY TO OBEY THOUGH YOU PRETEND YOU SEE IT NOT. We dare say , this is a Forgery of his own contrivance : When did any of our Assemblies so tell their Fellow-Members ? 'T is to be noted , that in such places where he in his Book allows not the Church of Christ power to judge , or to give positive sentence in cases of Difference , nor yet so much as to chuse or set a part any for the persons differing to decide their Differences , but only those at variance to make their own choice , as in pag. 53. Herein he has endeavoured wholly to make void all Church-Government and Authority , allowing more Power to the persons differing , yea , to the person offending , than to the Church ; the person offending to make his own choice as well as the person offended ; whenas the Offender , if one unwilling to make Restitution for the Injury done , he will be apt to chuse some partial persons of his own party , to serve his own turn , if he can ; which no wayes can tend to bring the difference to a fair and just end . Now to allow such Offender an equal power of choice , is not according to Christ's Doctrine , Mat. 18. where the Brother offended was to make his Complaint , and tell the offender his fault , who refusing to hear , then two Witnesses , and for want of hearing them , lastly , to tell the Church ; and if he would not hear the Church , then to count him as an Heathen man , &c. So the innocent offended Brother was to make his choice ; and had an esteem of the Churches Authority , and right of Judgment in the case of Offences , which such Injurious offending Brother had not , and therefore to be rejected , as an Heathen man , chiefly for refusing to hear the Church ; and herein consists the Nature of the Controversie between Us and W. R. We take part with the Innocent Brother , that is injured and offended , who is willing to bring his Case before the Church of Christ , and to hear the Church as in point of Judgment , and as knowing his presence in the midst : But W. R. plainly appears to take part with that injurous offending Brother that will not hear the Church . And as for the Power , W. R. grants it , any Members of the Church for deciding and removing Differences only when given by the assent of Parties : He confesseth that any Heathen man might claim the like Power , p. 53. What Power then has he here allowed the Members of Christ's Church in these cases more than to any Heathen man ? But mark , if this Gainsaying Spirit be not drawing back among the Heathen , that hath so little esteem of the Church of Christ ; but he often contradicts himself , confessing to divers Truths against his own Oppositions ; so that the Light sometimes interposeth , though Darkness has mo●● prevailed in his Work. Disaffect . XXVII . W. R. third part , pag. 64. Christ's Doctrine well described by his Sermon in the Mount , Mat. 5. and Chap. 6. wherein there is not the least Tittle to countenance this Sentence , that the positive sentence or decission of the Church in matters of Conscience may be obligatory on Believers . Observe . His main Work is still to Invalid the Authority and Sentence of the true Church , whereby here he would set Believers in opposition to the Church , as not oblieged by the Churches Sentence without exception , let it be as really from Christ , and as true , just and reasonable as may be ; but if the Sentence or Decision of the Church in matters of Conscience be no wayes obliging on Believers , then why has he told us of the Counsel and Admonition of the Church , which they that will not submit unto , are to be rejected by the Church ? His Inconsistences and Self-contradictions are numerous ; & what was that counsel which he that did but say to his Brother Racha should be in danger of ? as Christ said , Mat. 5. 22. Was not this counsel in the Church of Christ under the Gospel , as well as in the Church of the Jews under the Law ? But still our Adversary proceeds in his Inconsistency . Disaffect . XXVIII . W. R. pag. 64. third part , Nay , in that very Case , Mat. 18. 15 , 16. where 't is said , If thy Brother trespass against thee , go tell him his Faults ; if he hear thee not , take with thee one or two ; if he hear not them , tell it to the Church ; if he refuse to hear the Church , let him be unto thee as an Heathen man. The Scripture doth not say , that Sentence ought to be obligatory on all other Members of the Church of Christ ( who might be no way concerned either in the Admonition or Sentence ) to look upon him as an Heathen man ; but it saith , Let him be unto Thee as an Heathen Man. Observe . This we do except against , as unsound Doctrine ; the sentence in this place against that Brother that refuseth to hear the Church , was Christ's ; and the offence for which he is sentenced as an Heathen man , is both against a Brother in particular , and against the Church , in his refusing to hear the Church ; and therefore seeing its Christ's Admonition and Sentence , to let him be to thee as an Heathen man ; how could the rest of the Members of the Church of Christ look on him otherwise than as an Heathen man , having refused to hear the Church ? Strange Doctrine ! that one Member of the Church of Christ should have occasion , and that according to Christ's Doctrine , to look upon a Brother so offending against him and the Church , as an Heathen man , and yet other Members of the Church of Christ not to look upon him as an Heathen man ; what then may they look upon him as a good Christian contrary to Christs own Sentence ? And what though there be other Members of the Church of Christ , that are not immediately concerned in the Admonition or Sentence against the Offender , being not present in the Church when he refused to hear them ? Does it therefore follow , that they must be so far divided in their Sence and Judgment , either from the Sentence of Christ , the Sence of the Church ( to whom complaint was made against the Brother Trespassing ) or from the Sence of the Brother offended , as to look on him not as Christ , or the Offended Brother , or the Church ( whom he refused to hear ) have judged of him , that is , as an Heathen Man ? What Confusion would this make in the Church , and Contradiction to Christ's own Sentence ? Much might be said to shew the Absurdity of this ; but W. R. in his own contradiction has granted , 3d part , pag. 36. viz. Since the case is stated between two Brethren , and that on an orderly Proceeding and Admonition of the Church , the Sentence for not hearing the Church , is , Let him be unto thee as an Heathen Man. Here he has granted both Authority , Order and Government in the Church of Christ , in respect to such Judicial proceeding as is confirmed by the Sentence of Christ himself . This is the man whose Work is , much of it , to oppose Church-Government , and to render the Sentence or Decision of the Church of Christ not obligatory on Believers : We have rarely known any of Truth 's Adversaries more confounded in their Attempts against the Truth and People of God , than he is ; howbeit , we will grant him , that nothing that is Outward , whether it be Sentence , Judgment , Order or Decree in the Church of Christ , that can be a Bond on such to forsake Sin , and embrace the Truth , as are run into Looseness , Evil Deeds , and are become hardned , as he saith , pag. 43. 3d part , Until their Consciences be awakened to hear Gods Witness in themselves . This is true , but then it s no Proof against Church-Government , or that the just Sentence , Admonition or Judgment of the Church of Christ is no wayes binding on Believers , who are Members of the same Church , but only that they are not obliging to such as are hardned through Sin , that they see not their Duty , whose part our Adversary has taken , and their cause he has pleaded against Church-Government , and against the Authority , Sentence , Judgment , Outward Directions , &c. of the Church . Again , W. R. grants , 1st part , pag. 48. That though we find the Author to the Hebrews , chap. 13. v. 7. saying on this wise , Remember them which have the Rule over you ; yet he doth not say , Such who had the Rule were the Church ; but describes them to be such who had spoken unto them the Word of God ; so that if any Authority be given to any to Rule as Members of Christ's Body , it appears from the Scriptures of Truth to be unto such who had spoken the Word of God unto them , over whom they had the Rule : Thus far W. R. Whereby he has fairly given away his Cause ; for here he has granted Authority of Rule or Government given to such Members of Christ as had spoken the Word of God unto them , over whom they had the Rule ; whence it follows , that all such Members of Christ's Body , whether Elders or Overseers , &c. as have the Word of God to speak , or a Testimony from him committed to them to bear to others , may have a share and right in Rule and Government in the Church of Christ , with respect to them , unto whom they speak the Word of God ; and this may extend to as many faithful Members as grow up in Truth , and unto a Testimony , so as to have the Word of God to speak . But then we ask , If such be not of the Church , seeing he seems not to own them that had the Rule to be the Church ? What! were only the Hearers , and not the Preachers the Church ? however , W. R. has granted Rule to the Preachers ( which is not to be tyed up to the First Preachers , but also to extend to Others whom God shall raise up , and fit for his Service ) though he has opposed and gainsay'd many faithful Ones in his Book , yet he grants such Preachers to be Members of Christ's Body ; however , it appears , that the Inferiour Members , or Weaker part of the Church , owed a Submission to those Superiour in the Church , obey them that have the Rule over you , &c. yet all in the Lord in the Light and clear sight of their Duty , in Humbleness of Mind , submitting themselves one to another , as the Primitive Christians did : Also , the Members of the true Church were not come to the same Growth , to the same Dignity , to the same Degree of Judgment , to the same Measure of the Gift of Christ , nor to the same Stature in him ; some were more Eminently dignified for the Service of the Church , than others were , and accordingly were required to be helpful to others , and a suitable Submission one to another , according to the heavenly Order of the Gospel , Church and Body of Christ , and diversities of Gifts , Operations and Degrees of Growth through the same holy Spirit , do not oppose nor contradict , nor clash one against another ; and even they that were appointed Elders and Overseers in his Church , were to hold fast the faithful Word , as they had been taught , that they might be able by sound Doctrine , both to exhort and convince the Gainsayers . Moreover , the Church of Christ , and every faithful Member thereof , hath Power to give Testimony , absolute Judgment and Sentence against all Loose , Disorderly and Scandalous Wayes and Conversations , when duely manifest among any Professors of Truth , which dishonour our holy Profession , and let up a Spirit of Ranterism and false Liberty , and these ought to be testified against , judged and condemned ; and 't is not justly in the Power of any Offender , in those cases , to make their own choice of any Person whatsoever , to evade or make void any such Judgment or Sentence ; nor ought the Offender to be at his own choice in such criminal Cases of Looseness , and Disorderly walking , but the Universal Judgment of Truth to be set over the Transgressors Head , in a Gospel Way and Order , on a Judicial hearing and discovery of the Offence ; for the Church of Ephesus was commended , in not bearing them that were Evil , and hating the Deeds of the Nicolaitans , Rev. 2. 2 , 6. But the Church in Pergamos was blamed for having them that held the Doctrine of Balaam , and the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans , which tended to Ranterism , Fornication or Community of Women , ( which was to be judged out with the Light of Truth forever ) see Euseb. Hist. l. 3. c. 26. W. R. is Impertinent also in his Gainsaying , where in pag. 53. 1st part , he hath these words , viz. Disaffect . XXIX . It appears evidently to us , that preaching up Obedience to that wherein the Conscience through Faith is not satisfied , is a handling the Word of God deceitfully . This , as 't is generally stated ( and as it is designed ) is not only unfound , but a kind of an Implicit smiting at those whom he writes against , & tends to make void that first preaching of the Gospel to People Unconvinced and Unsatisfied in their Consciences concerning the most Essential Truths relating to Salvation , as that of the Light , the Cross of Christ , the Narrow Way , being Crucified to the World and the Vain Fashions thereof , &c. which are preached to many , before they are satisfied or convinced in their Consciences to come into Obedience in these things , yet these things must be preacht , that they may be convinced and converted too ; and we have a Ministry from Christ for that end , and as we have received Mercy , we faint not , but preach the Gospel in much Boldness and Assurance in Christ of the good Effects thereof , and are one with the Apostle's Testimony , as having renounced the Hidden things of Dishonesty , not walking in Craftyness , not handling the Word of God deceitfully , but by Manifestation of the Truth , commending our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of God , 2 Cor. 4. 2. Our preaching is to convince the Conscience , and not to leave it dark , or unsatisfied in that wherein the Duty of Obedience stands . A Blind Conscience is Convincible by Spiritual and Effectual Preaching , which hath the Evidence of the Spirit of Christ in it , making its way into the Conscience , if not wholly hardned and seared through Rebellion and Stubbornness ; even Gainsayers are to be Exhorted and Convinced by sound Doctrine , Titus 1. 9. Disaffect . XXX . W. R. 1st part , pag. 53 , 54. proceeds thus , viz. We have been informed , That We are Dark and Blind , even by such who tell us , They do see ; publickly Preaching on this wise , If you do not see your selves , you must then follow us that do see ; yet we cannot on that foot embrace such Doctrine , lest , like Blind Men , we fall all together into the Ditch . Observe . This is such a Reflection upon some publick Preachers and Preaching , as tends to Scandalize our Friends and Meetings ; as if still our Design were to preach up a Blind Obedience , and an Implicit Faith , and to Impose on others to follow us therein ; and this he often and much harps upon , but tells us not who they are that thus preach ; for we do not approve of such preaching , for any to follow us in their Blindness ; and though 't is probable , some may have publickly commended the Example of the Faithfull to be followed by others , yet not Exclusive of all sight and sence in the Hearers and Followers of their Examples ; for our Travel and Desires have always been and are , that the Eyes of Peoples Understandings may be opened and enlightned , first to see their way , and how to follow the Foot-steps of Christ's Flock , in his Divine Light and Faith. Disaffect . XXXI . W. R. Sect. 8. pag. 61. first part , G. F. hath taken upon him to give forth Directions and Instructions to others : and pag. 61 , 62. Many professing Truth do look upon G. F. as one whom the Lord in these Latter Dayes hath raised up and set in the like place amongst the Children of Light , as Moses was , &c. — and that whosoever shall oppose him , shall never prosper , which we are perswaded hath so over-awed MANY , that they become Sacrificers of their own Sence and Understanding to the will of man : and p. 62. We firmly believe , he will become Despised and Vile before the People , &c. and pag. 86. A slighting of G. F's Rules , Methods and Orders , with respect to Church-Government , is ( in their Sence ) a slighting the Cause of God : and p. 91. If a Conscientious slighting of G. F's pretended Motions , with respect to Forms of Church-Government , imposed contrary to Faith and a Charitable Belief , that he intended not to urge his Papers relating thereto on any of Gods faithful People with Severity , &c. Observe . We are very sensible of our Adversary's great Envy against G. F. and his great Abuse and Scandalous work in his Book , to render him Odious and Vile ; but he has known better things , and given another manner of Testimony on G. F's behalf , than now he has done , slighting his Directions and Instructions without Distinction , as having taken it upon him to give them forth from his pretended Motions , not owning him now as a Servant of Christ , or moved by him at all therein ; but only renders him one assuming to himself a Power to direct others . Time was when W. R. gave a better account of G. F. witness an Epistle , dated , London , the 26th of the 3d Moneth , 1673. and subscribed by Thomas Briggs , William Rogers , Arthur Eastmead , John Rance , Charles Marshall , Morgin Watkins , Jasper Batt , William Gibson , Samuel Cater , Stephen Crisp , John Moon , William Penn , Robert Barclay , George Whitehead , Thomas Green , and above Twenty more of the People called Quakers , at a Meeting at Anne Traver's House at Horslie-down , the day and year above-said , wherein William Rogers and the rest do thus testifie concerning G. F. viz. DEar Friends , let the Authority of God's Power , heavenly and Peaceable Wisdom be Eyed in all your Assemblies , that the Government of Truth and Righteousness may be Exalted over all , that true Judgment and Mercy may have their place . — And though a General Care be not laid upon every Member , touching the good Order and Government in the Churches Affairs , nor have many travelled therein , yet the Lord hath laid it more upon some , in whom he hath opened Counsel for that end ( and particularly in our dear Brother , and God's faithful Labourer G. F. ) for the help of many ; and God hath in his Wisdom afforded those Helps and Governments in the Churches , which are not to be despised , being in Subjection to Christ , the one Head and Law-giver , answering his Witness in ALL , and so all necessary Counsel , Admonitions or Testimonies that have been given forth and received in the Universal Spirit of Life and Unity have their Service for God , in subjection to his Light , and subservency to ( and in order to answer ) the great Rule and Law of the Spirit of Life , as proceeding from it ; and they that are spiritual , will acknowledge those things spoken or written from this Spirit , and for this end , to be the Requirings of the Lord. [ Thus far the said Epistle . ] Wherein W. R. and the rest have plainly confessed , First , To that Care the Lord hath laid on some , with respect to good Order and Government in his Churches . And , Secondly , To the Counsel which the Lord has opened for that end , particularly in G. F. And , Thirdly , That G. F. is therein owned to be a Dear Brother , and God's faithful Labourer . Fourthly , That God hath in his Wisdom afforded those Helps and Governments in the Churches , which are not to be despised , &c. which things do Answer , Confute and Condemn much of W. R's Book against Church-Government , Outward Methods , Orders and Rules , &c. with respect to Church-Government , which he calls G. F's Methods and Orders , pag. 86. 1st part ; but though in his Letter to G. F. cited in his 4th part , pag. 93. he tells of some New Prescriptions , which they cannot embrace for Conscience-sake , and which G. F. is accounted either the Author or Countenancer of . Howbeit , W. R. produceth not any New Prescription , Methods , Rules , Orders , and Forms of Church-Government , set up and imposed by G. F. at his pretended Motion , and that contrary to Faith , since the date of the said Epistle of the 3d Moneth , 1673. and signed by W. R. &c. ( he having justified G. F. in his Service until that time ) Now he should have produced some such new Orders & Forms of Church-Government , introduced among us since that time , to prove his Charge of Apostacy and Innovation against G. F. and those he calls His Party , or otherwise have forborn such Unjust Judgment . And comparing W. R's Book against G. F. and Forms of Church-Government , with the said Epistle , on behalf of both , it will plainly appear , that W. R. is guilty of Apostacy , and that his Book is a Scandalous Innovation against the Truth , and People of God called Quakers . And further , W. R. his opposing Outward Rules , Orders , Precepts , &c. with respect to Church-Government , appears Contradictory to what his Honourable Friend J. S. hath granted , as is cited , p. 87. 1st part , viz. That John Story took occasion to give his Sence touching such things which G. F. had given forth , on this wise , viz. That he did not believe that G. Fox intended any such thing , that they ( meaning his Papers directed to the Churches ) should with Severity be urged upon any of God's Faithful People , but as Instructions or Directions , commending them to the Churches , leaving the Effect thereof to God , and his leading Grace in his People , to make use thereof , as he should manifest a need of such Direction , Counsel or Advice . [ Thus far J. S. ] whose Sence herein appears contrary to W. R's , both in respect to G. F. and to those Outward Instructions or Directions : J. S. granting also , That God and his Leading Grace in his People might lead them to make Use thereof , as he should manifest a need of such Counsel or Advice ; which Answers and Confutes W. R. in his opposing Outward Directions , Methods and Forms relating to Church-Government : Thus his Pleading and Advocating on his honourable Friends behalf , is run to a Contradiction to them and their Sence , as well as to himself , in many things , and that on the same Objections he makes to prove G. F. and others Apostates ; and its very much if he do not fly out against J. S. and J. W. as Apostates also , if so be they should but plainly oppose the Unsoundness and Inconsistency of his Work ; which to Evince farther on the point , observe what follows , viz. Disaffect . XXXII . W. R. pag. 73. first part , We now appeal unto every Understanding , Ingenious and Impartial Reader , whether since the Labour of the Apostles of Christ was to draw the outward Jew off from the Observation of these Ordinances , which were established by the appointment of God himself , having exalted instead thereof the Word nigh in the Heart , and Law written therein — under the New Covenant , which was not to be like unto the Old , can consist with the tenour of the New Covenant , for any to attempt the establishment or giving forth of outward Orders , Prescriptions , Sentences or Decrees to be on that Foot a Bond upon the Consciences of those who have believed in the Everlasting Light , especially if they are of the Gentiles stock . Observe . His principal Objection against outward Order , Prescriptions , Sentences , Decree , &c. in the Church of Christ lies in the difference between the Old Covenant and the New. Answer ; God had his Ministers , Officers and Messengers both under the Old and New Covenant , and also Outward Instructions and Doctrines of Faith and Practice under both , though the New far excel the Old in Spirituality and Brightness , yet there was a Condescention to low Estates under both , to believing Jews and Gentiles , even in outward Ministries , Helps and Services , but all center in the Inward Life and Substance , Christ's Ministers both Immediately and Instrumentally , both in Doctrine of Faith and Practice , both with respect to divine Faith and a Christian Conversation , good Order and Society under his Government in his Church , and therefore all the Effects and Precepts of the New Covenant are not confined within to an Invisibility , because that Covenant is inward , and the Law of it first written in the Heart , we cannot reduce and confine our Assemblies , Societies and Christian - Counsel and Admonitions ( which many have need of ) all to an Invisibility , because the New Covenant is Invisible ; for Visible and Religious Actions , Good Instructions and Conversations outward , proceed from the Law of the New Covenant in the Heart ( being of the Nature thereof ) and that for the Universal benefit and help of others ; and such as own not this , cannot endure sound Doctrine , especially the Practical Doctrine . Disaffect . XXXIII . W. R. pag. 75. 1st part , We have no ground either from the Word of the Lord , the Appearance of Christ , or from the Scriptures of Truth , since the appearance of Christ in the Flesh , to expect that any should be invested with Power from on High to establish such things relating to the Conscience , ( i. e. outward Orders , Sentences , Decrees , &c. ) much less to expect that the Children of Light under the New Covenant should be led by the Eternal Spirit and Word in the Heart unto such a Conformity . Observe . This still relates to his General Objection against outward Rules and Directions , Form of Church-Government , Discipline , &c. but is still contrary to the said Epistle signed by him , Arthur Eastmead , and others , at Anne Traver's , 1673. as also Contradictory to what he himself has granted , p. 23. 3d part , in these words , viz. NOT THAT I WOULD BE HEREBY UNDERSTOOD , THAT IT S NOT NECESSARY TO BE IN THE EXERCISE OF OUTWARD ORDER , WITH RESPECT TO THAT GOSPEL DISCIPLINE WHICH BECOMES THE CHURCH OF CHRIST ; Thus W. R. has granted both Outward Order and Gospel Discipline , as becoming the Church of Christ , and as necessary to be Exercised ; whereby he hath still fairly given away his Cause against Church-Government , and the outward Methods and Forms thereof : As also , observe further how manifestly he hath overturned his Work by what follows , and therein behold W. R's Self-Confutation in his own words , 3d part , p. 82 , 83. viz. I doubt not but there are many , who are ready to conclude , That an Universal Unity ought to be established in the Churches , by the Assistance of outward Instruments , that as we are Members of one Body , so we may not only be One in Faith , One in Doctrine , but also One in Practice , with Relation to Discipline , Order and Outward Forms of Government ; My Soul should rejoyce to see that day , wherein we might be all so led by the Appearance of Christ's Spirit in us , under his Government , which ought to be exalted over all , as that THIS ONENESS might thereby be witnessed amongst all the Families of God's People at this day . Thus far W. R. We need not Explicate upon this Passage , it s so plain and Evident a Confutation of the greatest part of his Gainsaying , and most general Objections against us , in relation to Church-Government , and Order among us the People called Quakers . Disaffect . XXXIV W. R. 1st part , pag. 72. Moreover , 't is observeable , if Report be true , this Doctrine hath of late been Exalted , No Unity but IN Conformity . Observe . Here in pursuance of Report , as else-where of his Jealousies , Doubts and Fears , he brings an Ambiguous Doctrine , as Reported , which as its laid down and Charged , without Distinction , we own not , and do question the Truth of the Report , let him place it where he can . Disaffect . XXXV . Of Womens Meetings . W. R. 1st part , pag. 63. There is amongst many Friends a Difference touching the Meetings of Women separate from the Men. Observe . Not amongst many Friends does a Difference appear ; but amongst a few Heady Rash Spirits , who despise those Meetings , and the Service of them , calling them an Image , an Idol , &c. but W. R. appears more warey in this point , in not so directly and absolutely opposing the Meetings themselves , as some have done , but only giving a History of the different Sences and Jealousies of some about them , as also his Friends J. W. and J. S. write more Cautiously in this point of Womens Meetings , in these words , viz. That 't is not agreeable with the Line of Truth to oppose others in the Exercise and appointed Service of the said Meetings , who being Conscious therein , &c. And if it shall please the Lord to manifest a Service in those Meetings in the Countries , as well as Cities , the same Integrity towards God , which hath dwelt with us these many Years past , we believe will become a Bond on us to joyn Hand and Heart with others our Brethren and Sisters therein , &c. Thus far J. W. and J. S. 4th part , pag. 38. Herein they appear'd more moderate than some that take their parts , who Oppose , Contemn and Vilifie those Meetings . Pag. 64. In process of Time some Friends thought it necessary that Marriages might be proposed to the VVomens-Meetings , but yet several Friends in divers Counties would not assent that they should be concerned in Marriages ; at length several of those who appeared for those distinct Meetings to be concerned , said , The Faithfull see a Necessity and Cause to propose Marriages to the faithful Men and Womens Meetings ; This being uttered with those of Party with G. F. &c. Observe . Many faithful Friends , who are not for Party for Man , but Followers of Christ , do see a real Conveniency and Service in proposing Marriages both to the Faithful Men and Faithfull VVomens Meetings distinctly ; and because our Adversary gives us no valid Reason nor Proof to the contrary , we shall only at present cite the Reason given in an Epistle from the Quarterly-Meeting in Suffolk , dated , Mendlesham , the 29th day of the 7th Moneth , 1674. and directed , To be read at the several Monethly Meetings , and VVomens Meetings , and at every particular Meeting of Friends in Suffolk ( in which Epistle our dear Friend Robert Duncon , and many other good Friends were concerned ) their Advice and Reason given in the said Epistle follows in these words , viz. ANd as at our Men Friends Meetings we have advised together in the Wisdom of God to order all things , so we shall also be ready and willing to confer with our Women Friends , who feel it laid upon them by the Lord to meet together , and to take care especially in the Houshold of the Faithful ; and we have real Unity with their so Meeting together , and taking care in the Church of Christ ; and also in those Parts where God hath put it into our Women Friends to meet together , we desire that those Friends that have Intentions to Marry together , do acquaint our Women Friends with their Intentions of Marriage , — that our Women Friends may ask Questions , that they may also be satisfied , as is but Reasonable , that Women Friends should be satisfied in this matter , as well as the Men , seeing we cannot make a Marriage without a Woman , and that Women are Members of the true Church , and that Women are Competent Witnesses in the Case , &c. Also , we may add another Passage , being the 9th Article of Advice , given by George Whitehead , Robert Duncon , Charles Harris and John Crook , dated , Hartford , the 18th of the 1st Moneth , 1678 / 9. For the Monethly and Quarterly Meeting at Hartford , for a quiet and peaceable Management of Truth 's Affairs , therein the Advice is this , viz. That all Women Friends , who are or may be fully perswaded in their own Minds that they have a Service in the Church in Meeting distinct from the Men , be left free therein , without Interruption , Molestation or Reflection upon them , yet so as not to Limit or Restrain them ( or any of them ) from coming among the Men Friends , if they shall find Freedom and Service in the Lord. Disaffect . XXXVI . W. R. pag. 64 , 65. 1st Part , Many Friends Jealous , that a Submission was not only intended to Meetings of Men , but Womens Meetings also , and therefore FRIENDS , who in Simplicity submitted to the latter Meetings ( as supposing Women in some Cases fitter to pry into the Necessities of the Poor than Men ) did at length begin to be Jealous , that the words of the Prophet Isaiah , chap. 3. 12. were again fulfilled in our Age , As for my People , Children are their Oppressors , and Women Rule over them . Observe . Friends , who in Simplicity assented to the Womens Meetings , without Exception , are charged with this Jealousie of Women Ruling over them , which is a Notorious Untruth and Scandal against many honest-hearted Friends , who never entertained any such Jealousie against the Womens Meetings ; but in the Love of God do encourage them and their Wives in frequenting them , with respect to their Religious and Christian Service , in Submission to the Royal Law of Love ; and therefore the Jealousie pretended of such Submission and Rule , as is Insinuated , is Groundless , and a false Imagination ; for the Submission intended , in both our faithful Men and Womens Meetings is to the Power and Spirit of Christ Jesus in them , and not to a Rule or Dominion of meer Creatures , either Men or Women ; neither has he proved the said Jealousie ( against our Women Friends and their Meetings ) reasonable by telling of some rendring such Dark Spirits , as opposed proposing Marriages to the faithful Womens Meetings ; for the Opposition of some , both to That and the Meetings themselves , has sufficiently discovered the Darkness of their Spirits , as W. R. hath shewn his dark Jealousies , and taken part with Opposers herein , contrary to what J. W. and J. S. have confessed , That ' t is not agreeable with the Line of Truth to oppose others in the Exercise and appointed Service of those Meetings , as settled and agreed upon ; and then if the Opposition be not agreeable with the Line of Truth , it must needs proceed from the Darkness of their Spirits . Disaffect . XXXVII . W. R. pag. 65. This Jealousie encreasing , many of those who were contented , that Women should hold their Meeting apart from the Men , to take care of the Poor in some Cases , became less affected to such Meetings , lest instead of being Servants to the Poor for the Truth's-sake , and taking that weight and burden of that Care from the Men , they should become Rulers over both Men and Women — The Reasonableness of the said Jealousie , &c. Observe . A shamefull Jealous Story still , and Scandalous to many who owned the Erecting those Meetings ; and 't is not only shameful , but unmanly , to render so many such , so Disaffected and Jealous of the Women in their Meetings becoming Rulers over both Men and Women ; he might as well tell us , that many Faithful Men are Jealous of their Innocent Wives , and afraid they should Rule over them ; no less Ridiculous and Absurd is W. R's Jealous Story against the Womens Meetings . But seeing W. R. has vented so much Jealousie against our Women Friends , and their Meetings , it may not be amiss to insert upon what Terms they were encouraged and assented to ; to which purpose , see a Paper by G. F. and another annexed , wherein some of W. R's Friends are concerned . Dear Friends ; TO whom is my Love , in that which changes not : It would do well , and be of Service for you to have a Womens Meeting , as they have in other parts , that the Women may come into the practice of the pure Religion , which is to visit the Fatherless and Widdows , and to see that all be kept from the Spots of the World ; and so the Lord Jesus redeeming you by his Spirit , out of the old Adam in the Fall , into the Image of God's Righteousness and Holiness , that Man was in before he fell , in which you are all Helps-meet to the Men , in Righteousness , and Truth , and Holiness , and Justice , and the Wisdom of God ; And ye may assist and inform the Men of Necessities , in what you cannot do your selves : For Man and Woman being both in the Power and Seed of Christ , they are both Helps-meet . And so it would do well for the Women to have a Distinct Meeting by themselves , as it is in other places , and to see that nothing be lacking , then all is well amongst you , that you all may be Perfect and Compleat in Christ Jesus your Head , holding him , from whence you have Understanding and Wisdom , to order all things to his Praise and Glory : And when you do see that all is well , and nothing is lacking , to honour ▪ God , that all may be kept out of that which dishonoureth him , and all may be kept in their Testimony of Jesus , and to see that nothing is lacking outwardly in God's House , in his Family , who have the Mind of Christ , To do good unto all , especially to the Houshold of Faith. And when you see that all is well , then whose Mouth the Lord opens , in the Womens Meetings , to praise and confess him , to his Glory , they are to be Obedient , as it is in other Womens Meetings ; So once a Moneth to have a Womens Meeting in the County , Town , or other places convenient ; then the other Neighbouring Women may come and go Home , they Meeting together about the Tenth Hour of the Day ; and so they may keep a little Stock among themselves , to help the Poor , and them that be in Necessity ; and what they cannot do themselves , they may inform the Men , of all the poor Widows , and poor Mens Children that are fit to go to be Apprentices and to Services to Friends , that they may be trained up in the fear of God , and in the New Covenant , that they may be the Children of the New Covenant , where all may come to know the Lord , who is blessed for evermore ; Amen . So no more , but my Love in the blessed Seed , Christ Jesus , in whom you have all Wisdom of God , to order all things to his Glory , by which they were made . G. F. At the Quarterly-Meeting at Kendall , the 6th day of the 8th Moneth , 1671. this Paper before being read , and joyned with , with an unanimous Consent , to be put in Practice , as hereafter doth appear by the Names hereafter Subscribed . IT is further agreed upon , that this Paper be read in every particular Meeting , that the Women Friends , who are faithful , may be stirred up to a serious Consideration in the Light of the Lord , to Examine themselves , and feel his Requirings , and so to answer the Lord with Diligence and Willingness of Mind , that so every one that profess the living Truth of God , may be serviceable Instruments in his hand , to extol his Name , and to perfect his Praise , in our day and time . And in the Womens Assembling together , to see and consider , that all Women , Young and Old , who profess the Truth , do walk therein in good Order , in Modesty and Moderation , in Chastity , out of the Customs and Fashions of the World , and that nothing be lacking . And so herein the Females will become very sensible of the Necessities of the Body ; and so you will Rejoyce with them that do Rejoyce , and Suffer with them that Suffer , and Mourn with them that Mourn , who are not gotten out of the Bondage and Captivity of the Adversary , and so be ready to lend unto such a helping hand , and encourage every good Desire , and reprove the Wilfull and Obstinate . And so every one acting in the just Principle of God in our selves , Justice will be executed , and Righteousness established ; and herein Male and Female is serviceable in our Place and Calling in this our Day and Generation . And so , all Women Friends , who feel secret Desires in themselves to be Instruments of Good unto others , let them meet together ( as aforesaid ) and in this Desire , certainly the Lord will assist you in his Wisdom and Counsel , to act and speak that which is convenient . And all the faithful Women , who are thus inclined and affected herewith , may signifie their Minds and Intents to the Mens Meetings , and so be encouraged by us , whose Names are hereafter subscribed . John Wilkinson , Henry Story , James Clarkson , Richard Pinder , Thomas Langhorn , John Pearson , Bryan Lancaster , William Robinson , Thomas Atkinson , Miles Bateman , Rich. Stephanson , Thomas Camm , Thomas Robertson , Peter Moser , Thomas Airy , Henry Garnet , William Whitehead , Robert Thompson , Anthony Bownes . John Airy , Robert Barrow , Richard Robinson , Edward Atkinson , Joseph Baines . Disaffect . XXXVIII . W. R. p. 66. Some who ( as they may take it ) seem Affecters of Government , and Lovers of Pre-eminence , concluding , they are entred into the Possession of the Power of God , because they take upon them to be Members of a Woman's Meeting . Observe . A Silly and Incredulous Story , still to render the Women Ridiculous ; we do not believe this Conclusion justly chargeable upon any who are really Members of the Womens Meetings , or are esteemed meet to be conversant among them ; but this is his Dark way of smiting against some , frequently using the word [ Some ] when he proves not any one guilty ; we have only his own Jealousie instead of Proof . Disaffect . XXXIX . W. R. Sect. 9. pag. 69. Unsavoury Testimonies and Unchristian-like Discourses in our Publick Meetings so frequently , that 't is thereby known both to Professors and Prophane , that the People called Quakers are divided . Observe . Here he has Scandalized the People called Quakers and their Meetings . Query , VVhat publick Meetings are frequently thus served ? He has a very Fallacious way of writing , in laying his Charges and Accusations so General , as in this Passage , that they tend to render the People called Quakers and their Meetings suspicious of what he Charges ; whereas there are many , yea , the generality of our publick Meetings are kept clear of any such Unsavoury Testimonies and Unchristian-like Discourses . Besides , 't is not the People called Quakers , that are divided , but some Backsliding , Loose , Contentious Spirits are permitted to trouble them . Disaffect . XL. Concerning Tythes , 2d part , pag. 43. William Rogers puts an Objection thus , viz. But what if it please the Supream Powers to bestow on the National Ministry Tythes , how prove you from the Scriptures , that those who freely pay it do ill , or that 't is not Lawful for them to receive it from such , and Sue for it by the Law from others , who are not free to pay it ? W. R. Answ. We are so far from condemning all those who freely pay them , and not as by Constraint , that we look upon it to be the Duty of all professing Christianity , to Contribute toward the Outward Maintenance of such whom they usually hear , and account to be the true Ministers of Christ ( though not obliged thereto by Law ) in case they have need ; and if the Charity of any should be such , as to bestow upon them one Fifth Part , instead of a Tenth , far be it from us to condemn it ; but the Testimony of Truth is against all those who under pretence of being Gospel Ministers have received Carnal Things , from any who give them not freely , but by virtue of Humane Institution . Observe . We are wholly dissatisfied with this his Answer ; it appears to us both Loose and Fallacious : In the first part , he grants a freedom of paying Tythes , as being far from condemning all who freely pay them without Constraint ; in the second place , he prevaricates , and alters from the Terms of the Objection , that is , from freely paying Tythes , unto Contributing towards the outward Maintenance , as being the Duty of all professing Christianity , with respect to those they usually hear , and account the true Ministers ; so that his Answer looks with two Faces ; as if it would please the Tythe-Payers , and yet save himself from the Censure of Truth , by varying from Paying Tythes , which was Jewish and Typical , to a Contribution towards an outward Maintenance or Relief of Christs Ministers , in case they have need , which is a Moral and Christian Act , not limited to a particular Proportion or Number ; whereas the Number Tenth or Tythe was Jewish and Typical , not Moral nor Christian. But what Indifferent or Judicious Readers can reasonably take W. R ' s words [ Contribute toward the outward Maintenance ] to mean any other Maintenance than Tythes , the Objection being wholly about Tythes , and he presenting a [ We ] that are so far from condemning those that so freely pay Tythes , that he grants them one Fifth part instead of a Tenth , if the Charity of any be such as to bestow it on them they account Ministers of Christ. Thus we judge he hath declined our antient Testimony against Tythes , and shewn his own Apostacy and Innovation , and given away the true Christian Right and Freedom ( under the Gospel ) from that Yoke of Tythes , which his Friends J. S. and J. W. have accounted Antichristian . But W. R. though he has opposed Tythes as claimed , either upon a Divine Right or Humane Institution under the Gospel , as in the same cap. 8. 2d part ; yet in his Answer he grants a Liberty for the freely paying them as an outward Maintenance of their Ministers ; which being compared with his Friends Testimony against them , amounts to thus much , viz. Tythes in these dayes are an Antichristian Yoke , yet nevertheless we are far from condemning any that will freely put their Necks under it , and bear it without Compulsion or Sueing at Law ; whereas there is no need of Compelling them by Law , who can freely submit to bear that Yoke ; but we deny that Freedom assented to by W. R. 't is not a true Christian Freedom , nor a Freedom in Christ ; before he had given the said Fallacious Answer , he should have considered whether it would not thwart or lessen the Testimony of J. W. and J. S. cited by him in his 4th part , pag. 39. in these words , viz. As to Tythes , we can in Truth say , 't was never so much as in our Hearts to strengthen any in the Payment thereof , nor yet to weaken the Faith of any , having a Testimony in our Hearts , that Tythes , as at this day paid , are Antichristian . But to W. R's Indulgence to the Blindness of those that freely pay Tythes to them they account Christ's Ministers , in being so far from condemning them for that Practice ( or rather seeming to render it their Duty ) This is to make void Christ's Ministry and Testimony , to make it suit with mens Ignorance and Blindness , and not to answer his Light in them ; this is to leave them in Blindness under their Priests , & not to bring them to Christ ; this will never be the way to convert People to Christ , the true Shepherd ; but is to leave them under their false Shepherds and Hirelings ; had we taken this Course in Preaching , what success should we have had in our Ministry ? ( How little has W. R. ever known of the Work of Christ's Ministry ? 'T is a Question whether ever he Converted one Soul to God in all his Days ? ) This kind of Liberty and Indulgence to Ignorance and Blindness , yea , to Erroneous Practices on the one hand , and to neglect what 's good on the other , on pretence of not seeing it their Duty , as also to make Opposition , Dissention and Separation , under pretence of Different Gifts and Measures of Grace ; this appears to us as the very Nature and Medul of W. R's Contest , and a kind of Ranterism , which Solid Truth and Gospel Light can never admit of ; it appears to us no better than to preach thus to People , viz. Far be it from us , to condemn you for doing Unchristian Practices , if you see not your way out of them , you may continue in them ; And ( so by the Rule of Contraries ) far be it from us , to condemn you for omitting Christian Practices ( or to lay any good Commands or Things upon you ) if you see them not your Duty ; or if the Light doth not discover them to you , you may remain in Darkness , and that uncondemned all your Dayes . Away with such Doctrine , or any thing of this Tendence ; It s to introduce Carelesness , and a False and Fleshly Liberty ; on the one hand , to leave People in Blindness and Ignorance , in Judaism and Popery ; on the other hand , to let loose a shunning the Cross , and to let up an Apostatizing , Dividing , Rebellious Spirit , that will pretend want of Sight and Conviction , or to a Differing Measure of Grace , against True Light , Grace and Knowledge ; all which is highly to pervert the Gospel , and oppose good Order , and to make void the Divine Authority of the true Christian Ministry of the New Testament , which was preacht even to them that had the Vail over their Hearts ( that they saw not the end of things abolished ) to bring them from under the Law , and Ministration of Condemnation . Disaffect . XLI . Second part , pag. 27. He forms ( or rather imagins ) the Objection thus , viz. W. R. You seem to exalt Knowledge as an excellent thing : How comes it then to pass , that divers amongst you called Quakers have Preached reflectingly on such as are endued with Knowledge above many of their Brethren — telling us , that the Tree of Knowledge was not good for Food ? To which W. R. answers thus , ' T is very true ; However , that doth not prove all such Expressions according to Truth . pag. 28. As to the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil , though the Scriptures do not positively declare whether it was good for Food , or no , as in it self , yet it clearly imports that Adam's Sin in eating thereof was the Sin of Rebellion . A Father may command his Child not to eat an Apple , — His rebellious eating , no Argument to prove the Apple in it self not good for Food — It may reasonably be concluded that there is no ground to assert , that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was not good for Food , as in it self : pag. 29. We know not on what Foot of Truth any one can assert that the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food . Observe . By all this opposition to the Doctrine , that the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil is not good for Food ; W. R. seems to account it good for Food , because that Tree in it self , or in its own Nature is good ; and so it might ; and yet it follows not that it was good for Food , for the Soul to feed upon in a state of Innocency . And we may presume that W. R. may remember that 't is no Innovation in Doctrine , to say , that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was not good for Food . Have not some ancient and faithful Friends said this , who have ended their dayes in Peace ? And therefore for W. R. now to object it against us , or any of us , to bring us under his terms Apostate and Innovator , shews his evil design of Envy : Howbeit , he appears still inconsistent with himself in varying from his charge in these Words , pag. 29. viz. But yet , I would not be understood to reflect on all that have used that Expression , to wit , the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food ; because I question not , but many have so expressed themselves ; not thereby to represent that Wisdom which is accounted Sensual and Devilish , but rather to shew forth , that if we should feed upon , or admire any excellent Qualification or Endowment whatsoever , and not have the Eye of our mind chiefly unto the Giver , we might then come to a loss . From all whîch observe , that our Adversary has here found out a Salve , or better Construction for the said Doctrine , than his opposing and contradicting of it before , as not being according to Truth . At this rate he may make large Books against us ; but to what purpose , thus to Say and Unsay ? as if he should tell us , 't is unsound Doctrine , to say , The Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food ; But to turn about again , It may be used in a good and sound Sense ; and therefore I would not be understood to reflect upon all that have used that expression , viz. The Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food . What kind of Preacher would he make , if he should tell People , The Tree of Knowledge is good for Food ? The Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food . And what if some , as he saith , have reflected on the Wisdom that is Sensual , when they have declared , the Tree of Knowledge not good for Food ? What unsoundness can he prove therein , as to the Allusion ? The Question is , whether Man by transgressing God's command , in eating of that Tree , did not fall into that Wisdom that was Earthly and Sensual , or Devilish ? Whether that Sensual Wisdom was not produced in Man by that Transgression ? And therefore W. R's telling us , That which is a discoverer of Good and Evil , being in it self Good , as the Tree of Knowledge is , cannot be a proper Allusion , &c. We are sure his Allusion and Comparison here is not proper , nor according to Scripture : He here confounds the Discoverer , which is Christ , the Tree of Life , with the Tree of Knowledge ; As if man in Innocency were forbidden to eat of the Tree of Life . For our Opposer in his very next instance , p. 28. hath these Words , John the Evangelist testifies , This is Life Eternal that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent . A very good Scripture ; but no Proof that the Tree of Knowledge was good for Food ; or that God did forbid the knowledge of himself and of his Son to man in Innocency , when he gave him this command , But of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil , thou shalt not eat of it ; for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely dye , Gen. 2. 17. This Tree was excepted from every Tree yielding Seed and good for Food , which was allowed unto Man , Gen. 1. 29. and 2. 9. Did God forbid man ( in Innocency ) the knowledge of his Maker ? or command him not to eat of that which was good for his Souls Food ? No sure ▪ Who then presented the Tree of Knowledge as good for Food to be eaten , to make one Wise , & c ? 'T was the Serpent : Therefore the Scripture is not silent in it . The Serpent said unto the Woman , Ye shall not surely dye : For God doth know , that in the day ye eat thereof , your Eyes shall be opened , and ye shall be as Gods , knowing Good and Evil : And when the Woman saw that the Tree was good for Food , and a Tree to be desired to make one Wise , she took of the Fruit thereof , and did eat , &c. Gen. 3. 4 , 5 , 6. Did the Serpent say true , in saying . Ye shall not surely dye ? No , sure : For God had said the contrary ; In the Day thou eatest thereof , dying thou shalt dye . Therefore when the Woman saw that the Tree was good for Food , she saw not aright ; she had let in the Serpents perswasion to eat thereof , contrary to God's command . There was an Eye open , giving way to the Temptation , which God did not open , a mistaken sight : It was the same by which she saw it was a Tree to be desired to make one Wise. VVhence came that Desire , but from the Serpent's allurement ? That begot a false sight , a misapprehension , not consistent with the Law of Innocence or Uncorruptness of mind , that stood in the Simplicity of the Truth . All which considered , our Opposer is so far from proving any of us Apostates and Innovators , in saying , That the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food , that he has discovered his own Apostacy and Innovation , in introducing the Serpent's Doctrine , contrary to God's command , and the Doctrine anciently preached among us . And therein we cannot believe that God or Christ is his Teacher , but the Serpent , who beguiled Eve through his Subtilty : So he hath corrupted the minds of some , from the Simplicity that is in Christ Jesus , to feed upon that which brings Death over them , and to fall into that Knowledge which puffs up the Fleshly Mind . And that Eye that the Serpent opens , is not a Single , but an Evil Eye , which Christ came to blind , and to bring that Knowledge to nought , that puffs up , before men can clearly see with that Innocent Single Eye that Christ opens , or partake of that true Divine Knowledge , which is Life Eternal . The Matter we Principally aim at and stand for , both in the foregoing and following Controversie on our parts , is included in these general Propositions , viz. I. That since the Term [ Church-Government ] is of late so much cast upon us , we do thereby intend Christ's Government in his Church , exercised by him both Immediately and Instrumentally . II. That Christ Jesus , our Lord and Master , Governs , Rules and Orders in his Church and People , Immediately and Principally by himself , and Instrumentally ( in some measure ) by his Ministers and Servants , as well as he Teaches and Instructs both Immediately and Instrumentally . III. That Christ's Governing and Ruling Instrumentally by his Ministers and Servants , relates to the Godly Care , good Instructions , Admonition , and true Judgment given to ( and Ministred by ) such his Faithfull Servants , Ministers and Elders in Truth , whom the holy Ghost has made Overseers , and appointed for Helps and Governments in the Church , for the sake especially of the Younger and Weaker Members , Children , and such as are under Age , as to Truth and Experience in the Work of the Lord. 'T is about this last Proposition that the Controversie does most depend ; for Christ's Immediate Rule and Government in the Conscience is in words owned by our Opposers . IV. No other kind of Government in the Church of Christ , in Substance , Nature and End , do we at this day plead for , than what was exercised in the Primitive Christian Churches before the Apostacy , in a Spiritual , Perswasive , Convincing Way and Manner , suitable to Christ's Spiritual Kingdom , which prospers by his Truth and Meekness , Righteousness and true Judgment ; wherein we acknowledge him to be our King , Lord and Lawgiver ; all Carnal Force and Rigour being excluded his Kingdom . V. In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ we utterly deny and detest Exercising Lordship over God's Heritage , or seeking Dominion over the Faith and Conscience of his People , and assuming to our selves any Power , Dominion ( or Arbitrary Jurisdiction ) over their Properties , or the Properties of any other People in outward Things ; but in the Name of the Lord , are , and stand for Justice and Right between Man and Man , against all Injurious and Unjust Actions and Dealings , we being for Doing to all men as we would they should do unto us . God is our Record for our Christian Principle and Conscientious Tenderness in these matters . However , our Adversary has asperst us to the contrary , from his Perverse and Cruel Jealousies . Disaffect . XLII . In the Title page of the third part of the Christian-Quaker , ( so called ) there is this Passage , viz. W. R. Manifesting that there is but two sorts of Government owned by the Children of Light , or Christian-Quaker - One is the outward Government , under which we live ; the other is the inward Government of Christ , ( who alone is Lord over the Conscience ) which is not represented by Persons Visible by Carnal Eyes , invested with Power from him to execute outward Laws , Prescriptions , Orders , Edicts or Decrees in an outward Form of Government * Visible , as aforesaid . Observe . First , That W. R. and his Party are by him accounted the Christian-Quakers and Children of Light ; and that all those that are not in Unity with him and them , nor of his Party , are counted Apostates and Innovators : And why so ? but because they are for some Outward Laws , Orders , &c. in an outward Form of Order and Government in the Church of Christ , that 's Visible . Secondly , That this Outward Order and Visible Form is such , as by his Sence and State of the Case , is both rendred Obnoxious to the outward Government under which we live , and against the inward Government of Christ , insomuch that all the People called Quakers , who are for outward and visible Form and Order among them , are put under the Character of the Apostate and Innovator ; and this still tends to expose them to Persecution ; whereas our Innocent Conversations and Peaceable Deportment towards the outward Government ( under which we live ) hath been and is well known to be such , as neither our Opposer is able to disprove , nor need we here Vindicate our selves therein , although unjustly rendred , as neither consistent with the Outward and National Government , ( which has been the Charge of our Persecutors ) nor yet with Christ's Inward and Spiritual Government : This appears not only Malicious but Absurd ; as if because Christ's Immediate Government and Kingdom is Inward and Spiritual in the Conscience , therefore he must have No Visible Ministers in his Kingdom ; No Visible Order and Form of Government under his Dominion ; No Visible Persons exercised in any Rule , outward Order , Laws or Decrees under his Government , as if all Christ's Ministers , Apostles , Elders , Overseers , Helps , Governments , ( which were appointed by him in his Church , with all the Instructions , Decrees and Commands of the Apostles setting in order things that were lacking , doing all things decently and in order ) were a●● Invisible , and nothing Outward , Visible or Formal , because Christ's Inward and Spiritual Government ( whence these proceed ) is Invisible ; we can make no better arguing than this kind , in our Adversaries Distinction of his Christian-Quaker from the Apostate and Innovator ; nor deduce a more Natural Inference from his opposition against Visible Persons being concerned in an Outward Form of Government and Order in the Church of Christ. But , Thirdly , How does he consist with himself , in relation to the Paper which he sayes is accounted the Foundation of the Separation in the North ? 2d part , pag. 78. which Paper was subscribed by his said honourable Friends J. W. and J. S. and above Eighty more Persons , in which Paper are these words and terms , viz. We who are chosen by the Churches , and in their behalf to Act — Some of other Counties , and some amongst our selves , not chosen by the Churches , have usurped Authority over us . — The Meetings by whom we were Imployed — Our Men , who have their Authority given them by the Churches Choice and Consent , are hindred by others not so appointed , to whom we gave no Power by our Consent , but do deny , that they have had Authority from us to dispose of our Collections or Records , or ORDERS , or Matters of our Concerns — Our Chosen Men — They who are not chosen by the Churches — You who are concerned and rightly Chosen by the Churches — &c. With many other Passages in the said Paper , all which intimate Authority , Power and Government ( together with Records , Orders , &c. ) what Power , as a Church , they assurned to chuse Persons to act in their Concerns , and give Power to Persons therein ; so that here was W. R's great Intimate Friends for a sort of a Church-Government , Authority , Orders , Instructions , Prescriptions , &c. Does he not deserve to be severely reproved by them , for so manifestly contradicting them ( whose Cause he pretends to plead ) by his Publishing such a great Book against Church-Government , Visible Forms , Orders , &c. And now , we would ask W. R. if those Churches chusing , and giving Power to others , and the Persons chosen to be Imployed in their Affairs , were all Invisible ? and their Affairs and Business Invisible ? and their respective Meetings , with the Methods they intended therein Invisible ? and their Records and Orders Invisible ? Surely the said Paper of theirs , with the limitted Prescriptions therein was not Invisible any more than the Persons that formed them . Fourthly , but seeing W. R. is so much for Invisibility in Church-Order , Government , &c. it had been well his great Book of Division , and those his confused Oppositions and Gainsayings had never been so Visible , but kept all Invisible , that he might not have troubled poor simple-hearted Friends , and the World with such his groundless Jealousies , and ill mannaged Controversies ; We are perswaded , if this his Fruitless Work had been all kept in Obscurity and Invisibility , it had been far more Reputable for him than it now is , or ever like to be in its Visibility . Howbeit , 't is observable , that he varies in his Objection against Visible Persons , being invested with Power to execute Laws , Prescriptions , Orders , &c. under Christ's Government , in an Outward , Visible Form ; whereas this Objection is absolute in other places ; he seems to restrict and qualifie it with this frequent Addition , viz. Whether they see it their Duty or no ; that is , that they are not bound to obey outward Prescriptions , Orders , &c. unless they see it their Duty . As for Instance , see his 3d part , p. 9. pretended , On behalf of Christs Government , and his Spirit 's Guidance into all Truth , he gives this Testimony , ( viz. ) That there is no ground either from the Scriptures of Truth without us , or Light of Christ within us to believe , that any Christian Professor can in Truth affirm , That there are outward Prescriptions and Orders given forth by the Spirit of God through any one or more Mortal Men in this our day , which others ought to obey and follow , whether they see it their Duty or no. Observe again here , That his Objection is not absolute as before , against Visible Persons , being invested with Power from Christ , to execute or put in Practice outward Prescribed Instructions and Orders , &c. nor against such outward Prescriptions and Orders , being given forth by the Spirit of God through one or more Men or Persons in this our day ; ( for there are many wholsome and binding Rules , Precepts and Commands outwardly recorded in the Scriptures of Truth , that proceeded from the holy Spirit in the Servants of God and Christ , which are now renewed by the same Spirit in his Servants ) but his Objection is against their being given forth with intent to be obeyed by others , whether they see it their Duty or not ; wherein the Objection does not only vary from that in his Title Page , but is very Frivolous and Loose , and will serve only for a pretence to Loose Spirits , who ( to evade just Precepts and Instructions , proceeding from the Spirit of Truth in the Servants and Ministers of Christ ) will be apt to pretend , They see it not their Duty ; which yet is no proof that any thing Just and Lawfull in it self is not their Duty : On the other hand , seeing whatever Precept , Direction or Command is given forth from the Spirit of Truth , which concerns our Duty , either towards God or Man , and the keeping a Conscience void of Offence towards both , is not given forth to be left Indifferent , as to be Accepted or Rejected , but to be put in Practice ; it cannot reasonably be supposed , That the Spirit of Truth in that Case , leaves the Conscience without Evidence , or the Creature , to whom it directs in such Blindness , as not to see that a Duty which in it self is Just and Righteous , having a necessary Tendence to that Godly , Righteous , and Sober Life , which the Grace of God Universally appears to teach and lead men into ; and therefore , for any professing Truth , and the Guidance of the Spirit , and Light thereof , to pretend , That Spirit may through Instruments direct such Orders and Rules unto them , as they see not to be their Duty ; This will not excuse them in the Day of the Lord ; for if they sin against Sight and Knowledge given of God , that is their Rebellion and Stubbornness ; if they are become Blind and Ignorant of what 's their Duty towards God or Man , through their own careless Neglect of his Grace given them , they are justly condemnable therein , their want of Sight proceeding from their idle Sloath , and want of Diligence , if he grants that every one has a measure of the true Light and Spirit : On the other hand , whatever is really any ones Duty , in relation to a good Conscience , it cannot be livingly and acceptably performed , as in God's sight , without keeping in a true Sight and Sence of that divine Light and holy Spirit , which is near to shew man his Duty , both in shunning Evil and doing good , as also to lead him into all Truth , as he gives up to it , and attends upon its Guidance . But further , the Members of Christ , the true and spiritual Believers , have so much inward sence and feeling of those outward Instructions and Precepts , that proceed from the Spirit of Truth in their Brethren , that they have Unity therewith , and have some discerning of the Nature , good Tendence and End thereof ; and even such as are but weak in the Faith , being tender and honest-hearted , as the Lord layes no more upon them than what they can bear ; so they are so far from opposing any thing of God's Counsel through his Servants , which they have not a present sight of , that they apply their Hearts to the Lord with diligent Attention , that he may reveal that unto them . For in assurance of God's revealing what should be needful to the true Believers ( in the Primitive Christians dayes ) as they walked by one and the same Rule , and minded the same thing ; the Apostle to the Philipians saith , If in any thing ye be otherwise minded , God shall reveal even this unto you , Phil. 3. 15. and to the Thessalonians , We have Confidence in the Lord touching you , that ye both do , and will do the things which we command you , 2 Thess. 3. 4. The true Ministers and Servants of Christ writ and spoke in a Holy Confidence in Christ Jesus , and preached in Much Assurance , that their Testimony would meet with Reception in the Hearts of them who received the Love of Truth : They did not leave the Concerns of Truth and of the Churches of Christ , relating to Unity or good Order , upon Loose and Indifferent Terms , as when the Spirit of the Lord required them to Teach , Exhort or Command any thing needful to be practised in Churches of Christ , with respect to good Order , Society , Unity , and Holiness of Conversation , they faithfully signified it , and did not leave the matter loose and indifferent , in this wise , ( viz. ) These things we are required of the Lord to signifie to you , as very needfull in such and such Cases , but they are not Binding upon you , you need not Practise them unless you see them to be your Duty ; or if the Lord doth not let you see them to be your Duty , you may let them alone ; you are not Bound to Practise any thing we Preach , Direct or Counsel you to do , if you do not see it to be your Duty . This would be a very feeble kind of Preaching , and bespeak such Inconsistency and Distrust in their Testimony , as if the Lord would not open their Eyes to see that which his Spirit Directs to , and Leads his Servants to Testifie ; and not only so , but such kind of Loose Indifferent Preaching would be a means to leave them Blind and Dim-sighted , who are so , instead of opening their Eyes by the plain Evidence of the Spirit and Power of God ; whereas the true Ministers and Servants of Christ by the Manifestation of Truth did commend themselves to every mans Conscience in the sight of God , as having Faith , Confidence and Assurance , That they should have an Evidence and Answer in the Conscience , being unto God a sweet savour of Christ , in them that were saved , and in them that perished ; to the one , the savour of Death unto Death ; and to the other , the savour of Life unto Life , 2 Cor. 2. 15 , 16. They preacht both in Assurance and Divine Authority , These things Command and Teach , Preach the Word , be Instant in Season , out of Season , Reprove , Rebuke , Exhort , with all Long-suffering and Doctrine : I Charge thee , &c. Charge them that are Rich , &c. In such Terms Paul writ to Timothy : And concerning a Bishop , or Overseer , and Elder in the Church , he gives the Description to Titus , how he must be Qualified , Titus 1. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. Holding fast the faithfull Word , as he hath been taught , that he may be able by sound Doctrine , both to Exhort and Convince the Gainsayers : And blessed be the Lord , we know nothing we practise among us , as a People gathered by him , in our Assemblies and Congregations , either in respect to Unity , Church-Government , Order or Discipline , but such things as we have the Evidence of the Spirit of God for the Practice of , and have a Tendence towards the great Ends of true Religion and Christian Society , as having a Godly Care among us over one another , the Strong to help the Weak , and that all may be preserved out of the World 's Evil Wayes and Polutions , in that pure Religion that is to Visit the Fatherless and Widows , and keep Unspotted of the World , so as we may provoke one another to Love and Good Works , and to serve one another in Love , as the Primitive Christians did , knowing that all our Care , and the very Intent of our Proceedings in the Church of Christ are for these Ends , and all center in that Love which is the fulfilling of the Law ; and having these things in our Eye , we can the more easily concur and accord as to Circumstances and outward Methods , and in the Wisdom of God so condescend one to another , and accommodate matters , as not to divide about them ; and therefore , we do profess seriously , we see no real Cause or valid Reason our Opposer shews for the great ▪ Noise and Rumble he makes about outward Laws , Prescriptions , Orders , Edicts or Decrees , outward Form of Government , Apostacy , Innovations , Impositions , Lording over Faith , over Conscience , &c. whilst he shews us no Unjust , no Unlawful nor Uncomely Order or Proceedings among us as a People , nor yet gives us any Instances or Catalogue of those Impositions , Innovations , New Doctrines or Practices , brought in and received among us , which are either Inconsistent with our first Testimony to the Light and Grace of God within , and the Teachings thereof , or thereby condemned as Evil , or wholly Unnecessary in themselves : He should have given us a Catalogue of those Innovations he complains of , and what Order and Methods he would prescribe to the contrary , whether any or none , and not go to fill the Peoples Ears with a general Clamour of Apostacy , Innovations and Impositions , scandalously to render us as bad as the Church of ROME . He often charges us with Uncertain Qualified Persons , that usually Assemble in our Meetings , which concern the Affairs of the Church among us : Which is a very Impertinent Objection ; for granting some Persons Uncertainly , or not Rightly Qualified , may come into such Meetings , such sway not the Meetings in Truth 's Affairs ; but there is an Eye to the Universal Power of God , to sway and rule in our Proceedings , and Concerns of Truth ; and what Reason and Evidence is in Truth given in matters before us , these have place in our Meetings : and 't is very needfull that some that are not grown into the Exercise of Help and Government in the Church , who are Honest-minded , should be present at such Meetings , that they may have the Advantage thereof , in order to their furtherance in the Truth and Service , as the Lord shall make them capable ; for the least sound Member hath its Service in the Body : But W. R. appears not of the Apostles Mind , who said , Those Members of the Body which seem to be more feeble , are necessary ; and those Members of the Body which we think to be less honourable , upon these we bestow more abundant Honour , &c. ( see 1 Cor. 12. 22 , 23 , 24. and Chap. 9. 22. ) we do not disgrace them in Print ( as W. R. hath done ) and therefore those our Meetings are not confined to a Select Number ; for our Opposer grants , That the Children of God may be Instrumental in his Hand to Establish one another in the Faith of God's Elect , 3d part , pag. 12. as also pag. 19. he has these words , viz. I am abundantly satisfied , that set and appointed Meetings on certain prefixed dayes , being with the joynt Concurrence of those Members , assembling , and from time to time to be assembled , to take care of the Poor , and discharge other Charitable Duties , to inspect Marriages , that none come together Disorderly , and to take Care that Truth may not be Scandalized through the backsliding of such who have been in fellowship with the Children of Light , are not Inconsistent with that FORM that the Power of God may lead into ; for I am a Witness , for many Years past , even to this day , that such Meetings have been serviceable to answer those Righteous ends . Observe . He has here granted the point for Church-Government , to his own Confutation , and that which is the end of such our Assemblies : What 's then his complaint of Rules , outward Orders , Forms of Government , & c ? And who among the Children of Light do not see these to be needful , as well as serviceable ? And what Forms , Prescriptions , Rules or Laws are executed or put in Practice among us , which tend not to answer those Righteous Ends ( to wit ) the taking care of the Poor , discharge of other Charitable Duties , inspecting Marriages , to prevent disorder therein , and to take care that Truth be not Scandalized through the back-slidings of such who have been in Fellowship among us ; These are the very Righteous Ends and Services intended and aimed at in those our Meetings , which being granted in the General , we would ask this Person , or any one adhereing to him , 1st , What are those Innovations he complains of among us , in respect to an outward Order , Discipline and Form of Government ? 2dly , What Impositions , Orders , Prescriptions , Laws or Rules can he justly charge the People called QUAKERS ( who are not of his Party ) withal , which the Spirit of Truth hath not Unity with , and which therefore the Members of Christ's Body and Children of Light are not obliged to obey or practise , as not seeing it their Duty ? Disaffect . XLIII . And seeing he affirms , That the People of the Lord called Quakers are in the Practice of many things , with respect to Church-Discipline , wherein the Scriptures , treating of those things given forth by Christ and his Apostles , are silent . Third part , pag. 20. compared with what he affirms , pag. 24. That part of that outward Order in Discipline , wherein divers of the People of the Lord , called Quakers , have been acted is such , as that there is not the least Foot-steps thereof to be found in the Scriptures , as Exhorted to , or as Practised by the Apostles . And what ! suppose this were true ? ( which yet we do not grant him ) so long as they are the People of the Lord , and they waiting on him , he is their Shepherd and Guide by his holy Spirit and Principle of Truth within , which leads not contrary to any Wholsome and Evangelical Precept , or Christian Conversation and Practice recorded in the holy Scriptures . And W. R. so far Answers himself in this matter , as that he grants , The Principle of Truth in these latter dayes hath and may lead into the Practice of OUTWARD ORDER in Discipline , with relation to the Church of Christ. Whereby he assents to a higher Rule than the Scriptures , namely , the Principle of Truth : and then the Question is , 1st , What those many things are , with respect to Church Discipline , wherein the Scriptures are silent ? We find him only in reference to this point , telling us thus , 3d part , pag. 24. viz. I could give many Instances hereof , but one shall suffice , viz. the form of proceedings in Marriages , wherein the Scriptures are wholly silent , as to the Primitive Christians : By which you may see what a narrow compass his great noise of Innovations , outward Order in Discipline is brought to , he should have made his Book wholly on this subject about the form of proceedings in Marriages among us , and not have made such a great impertinent blunder upon general Scandalous Charges to no purpose ; and then it would have appeared , whether he could have disapproved our proceedings therein or not , or prove them inconsistent with those Righteous Ends , that he himself has granted . 2dly , In his Preface he only mentions outward Forms relating to Marriages , Relief of the Poor , &c. About which he saith , a great part of the Contention seems to be ; and yet he is the hotest Maintainer of the Contention . 3dly , And though in some Circumstances every thing be not specified in the Scriptures , yet whether there is any part of Church-Discipline practised among us , that does not tend to answer the Apostolick Doctrine , in respect to Good Order , a Holy Conversation , a Heavenly Society , and things that are Honest , Just , Reasonable , and of good Report . What Form or Discipline do we practise that is unsuitable to these Righteous Ends ? We affirm , that his crying out Impositions , Innovations , Form of Church-Government , Orders , Prescriptions , &c. in general , is no answer , nor any proof of his Charge of Apostate and Innovator against us ; let him either specifie the particulars thereof that he condemns us for as Apostates , and that we practise as Church-Discipline , or else forever be ashamed of such Impertinency and Scandalous charging the Meetings of the People of God called Quakers , which are concerned in and about those Outward Affairs and Christian Services ( for which they were intended ) as Charitable Duties , inspecting Marriages , taking care that Truth be not Scandalized , &c. which he hath confessed , ( and the Service of such our Meetings being to answer those Righteous and Good Ends. ) As also to the same purpose ( in reference to Friends care about Printing ) in these Words , viz. Third part , pag. 31. I would not be understood that it is unnecessary for the Members of the Church of Christ to take care , that nothing Scandalous to the Truth come forth in publick under the Name of any who make Profession thereof ; and were it so , that I had ought upon me on Truths behalf to bring to publick view , I should be glad of the opportunity to lay it before such Brethren with whom the Word of Wisdom , Knowledge and Discerning of Spirits dwelt . Hence it appears that this Man would seem to be for Order and Society with such Brethren as he has a good esteem of , and to be so conformable and submissive , as to have their Counsel and Approbation of what he brings to publick view , granting it necessary for the Members of the Church of Christ to take care , that nothing Scandalous to Truth come forth in publick which is one main end of our Meeting in London , so much struck at and vilified by him — But who those Brethren are , with whom he accounts the Word of Wisdom and Knowledge dwells , and before whom he would lay what he would bring to publick view , for their Care and Approbation , he tells us not ; but we may easily guess by his high Characters of Ancient and Honourable Friends , Labourers in the Gospel , &c. And whether they did see and approve of this confused scandalous Book of his or not , is best known to themselves ; either they did , or they did not ; if they did , then by his own Inference they are entituled to the matters contained in it ; if neither of them did see and approve of it , then that omission contradicts his own pretence , it not being probable that he can justly plead he wanted opportunity to lay it before any of his honourable Brethren in two or three Years time . Third part , pag. 82. There is great need for every one to watch against a Censorious judging Spirit , lest whilst they are judging their Brethren , they themselves become cast-awayes . p. 83. It behoves every one diligently to watch , that we judge not one another by reason of these differing Exercises , &c. Observe how well this man can Counsel others , but how contrary thereto he acts himself , in giving forth such a censorious judging Book , as he has done , tending to render many Innocent Persons and People Apostates and Innovators , wherein he is far more loud in his Charge and Exclamation than in his Proof or Instances of that Apostacy or those Innovations . But if he could prove such Innovations or New matters in Discipline or differing Exercises therein , as he would Insinuate , which yet is not granted him , then by his own rule he ought not to have brought forth his Censorious Book , but rather have watched , and studied to be quiet . Pag. 80. I would not be understood to judge Apostles or Elders , when they shall find freedom from the Lord ( being met together ) for giving forth any thing by way of Recommendation to the Consciences of their Brethren . Answ. We know nothing given forth ( as Duty to God or Man ) to be practised among us by Apostles or Elders , but what is in Truth intended ( at least ) to be recommended to the Consciences , and hath an Answer and Reception in the Consciences of Friends in Truth ; what we write or preach on behalf of Truth and true Religion , is recommended by Divine Authority and Evidence , in the Apostles sence , by the Manifestation of Truth , commending our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of God ; and this may be either by good Exhortation , Counsel , Admonition , Reproof , Judgment , Testimony , Warning , Charge , Command , &c. all which the holy Apostles used . But it appears our Opposer has another sence of Recommendation , as leaving matters more indifferent and loose , by way of doubtful Proposition , as on these , or the like Terms , viz. You are not Bound to submit , whether you see it your Duty or not . And whereas this Person is frequently judging our Friends for Imposition , Innovation , &c. We would be understood , that those things commended among us , as necessary for good Order and Holiness of Conversation , are not recommended doubtfully , or upon meer Supposition , nor as Matters of Indifferency to be Practised or Rejected , but in Faith and full Assurance , as answering God's Witness and Truth in the Consciences , and that such will meet with a tender Reception ( and not Opposition ) in all tender and upright Hearts . Disaffect . XLIV . Third part , pag. 83. Amongst the Primitive Believers , there were such as practised Circumcision ; some made Conscience of keeping a Day , and some that abstained from eating Flesh , and others that did not ; and yet a Christian-Liberty and Forbearance was so Exercised , as that they were not to be judging one another about these things ; and that we find not , that these Differing Exercises in a CHRISTIAN Liberty did subject any of those Believers exercised therein , to the Censure of being out of the Unity of the Body . And 5th part , pag. 75. on Gal. 5. 2. & 4. 9 , 10 , 11. to the same purpose he saith , Yet this did not at that time condemn that CHRISTIAN-LIBERTY and Forbearance , which the Apostle before approved , in and with respect unto such as made Conscience of Circumcision , and the Observing of Days , before they had so received the Spirit as to be led out of it , that is , many of the Believing Jews , whom ( he saith ) the Apostles did not condemn the same in , until by Faith they saw beyond it , 3d part , pag. 81. Observe . Here it is evident what kind of Liberty this Person would Introduce an Indulgence of , under the Notion and Title of Christian-Liberty ; but his Mistake in this matter appears very great ; for he takes that to be Christian-Liberty , which was no other in it self than a Legal Bondage or Servitude , as Circumcision was with the Legal Observation of days , which were not only Shadows and meer Types abolished by Christ , and nayled to his Cross ( as inconsistent with that Evangelical Dispensation the Apostles and Primitive Christians were in ) but also counted a Yoke and Bondage , Acts 15. 10. Gal. 5. cap. and not a Christian-Liberty , their Testimony was absolute for Christ's abolishing and ending these Types and Shadows under the Law ; but Christ did not abolish Christian-Liberty , nor did the Apostles forbear their absolute Testimony to Christ , as the End of the Law , because many of the Jews did not see the end of things abolished , nor yet did they tell them , that they were in a Christian-Liberty in the Practice of Circumcision , or those things abolisht , but that the Vail was over their Hearts , that they did not see to the End of things abolished : We grant there was a Christian-forbearance towards the weakness of believing Jews in Circumcision , &c. but not a Christian-Liberty declared in the Practice thereof . Our Opposer has greatly erred in this point , and extended his Liberty too far in this , and many other matters , and not only so , but hath manifestly Contradicted himself , having in his first part , pag. 73. confessed , That the Labour of the Apostles of Christ in the Primitive dayes was to draw the outward Jew off from the Observation of these Ordinances , which were established by the Appointment of God himself , having exalted instead thereof the Word nigh in the Heart , and the Law written therein . See now how inconsistent this Mans Work is ; surely the Apostles did not Labour to draw them off from a Christian-Liberty , nor the Exercises thereof ; and did not the Apostles witness to the Inward Circumcision of the Heart , by the Spirit , as well as the Jew inward and Law inward ? This man who is th●s Discomposed in his Work , should not have meddled so much with points of Divinity , which he appears so little skilful in ; he Dreams so much of Liberty , that he is greatly bewildered in the Mannagement of it ; and what is the Tendence of his Work , but to Invalidate the Christian Authority , Care and Oversight that God has set up in his Church and People among us ? The Case further Explained . But to take W. R's Notion of Christian-Liberty in the best and most Charitable Sence of his Intention , viz. not to judge one another about the outward Circumstances of Discipline , nor urge them with Severity , on Rom. 14. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. Him that is weak in the Faith receive , but not to doubtfull Disputations ; One man believeth , that he may eat all things ; another , who is weak , eateth Herbs : let not him that eateth , despise him that eateth not ; and let not him that eateth not , judge him that eateth ; for God hath received him : And Vers. 5. One Man esteemeth one day above another , another esteemeth every day alike ; Let every man be fully perswaded in his own Mind . We do testifie in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ , that where this is really the case of any one weak in the Faith , who is under some private Scruple or Dissatisfaction of Conscience , yet peaceably minded , and having his Faith to himself , there ought to be Christian Tenderness and Forbearance towards such , and no urging with Severity ; for too much of that ( we mean of Severity , or Zeal without true Knowledge or Wisdom from God ) may possibly discourage the weak , drive and scatter from Truth into Prejudice , and make some Desperate , Hard , and Careless ; but tender Perswasion and Instruction towards such is needfull ; and far be it from us to be Severe in such Cases ; the Lord Jesus Christ hath taught , and daily teacheth his Servants how to bear the Burden of the Weak Ones , and their Weakness and Infirmities , to help them , and not drive them out for a Private Difference in Opinion or Judgment in one that 's peaceable ( though but Weak ) may be better born than Publick Opposition and Contention in the Church . But where Persons may differ only in Judgment , in some outward Thing or Circumstance from the Society they belong to , and yet will be Contentious , Strive with , Oppose and Disturb their Brethren , or the Meetings they belong to , and seek to make Parties , raise Annimosities , sow Discord and Strife , cause Divisions and Seperations , Whisper , Murmur , Backbite and Complain against their Brethren , who are Unanimous and Conscientious towards God , in what they believe is Convenient and good Order , the Opposers Imagining themselves to be stronger and wiser than all the rest , not being content to be quiet , nor to demean themselves peaceable under their differing Opinions ; this is not Tender , Brotherly nor Sociable , but to be avoided , and they marked ; Mark them that cause Divisions and Offences , and avoid them : If any Man lust to be Contentious , we have no such Custom in the Church of Christ. There can be no Unity in orderly proceedings in the Church without Love & Concord ; there can be no true Society held without Agreement , Due Order and Method . Be of One Mind , be of One Judgment , be of One Accord , do all things without Murmuring and Disputings , let nothing be done through Strife or Vain Glory ; whosoever would appear to be Elders and Overseers in the Church , and be at Variance , and do not accord with faithfull Brethren in publick wholsome Counsel and Advice to the Younger sort , nor to agree in due Methods and orderly Proceedings , these are Wrong , this their way tends to distract those that are weak in the Faith , who should be helped by good and Unanimous Counsel and Advice . Those that mind not Peace nor Unity & Concord with their Brethren , in due and orderly Proceedings , are not fit to advise others ; they had better keep at Home than disturb Meetings , and confound the Weak ; 't is a shame for such to undertake the Place or Office of Elders , Overseers and Counsellors of others , who are neither Sound nor Unanimous in Judgment and Advice themselves , ( with them who are for Peace and good Order , and to prevent Reproach and Scandal ) but are ready to let Loose Youth , and let up a Spirit of false and fleshly Liberty , under pretence of Conscience . For Instance , set Case two Young Persons about to propose their Intentions of Marriage to a Meeting , shall pretend a Scruple of Conscience ( whether from themselves , or as they are prepossest by others ) for not proposing it a Second Time , and some pretending to sit as Overseers in the Meeting , take part with them , abet and plead for such Liberty therein against coming a Second Time , and against the Sence of a great part of the Meeting , who are Tenderly and Conscientiously concerned for that good and needfull Order of proposing the Marriage Twice ; they that oppose this , and plead a Liberty to come but Once , are therein Unsociable , and what they stand for is not in Reality Tender Conscience , but Flesh and Fleshly Will ; it looks not like the pure Spirit , but Flesh ; nor like Tender Conscience , but Self-Will and Humour . What! a Tender Conscience against so much Patience , Temperance and due Order , as to forbear Consumnating the Marriage until laid before the Meeting a Second Time ? and that both for Example to others , and Satisfaction of the Meeting , touching the Parties Clearness ; there can be no Honest Pretence of Conscience for such Irregularity , Hasty and Abrupt Procedure ▪ Let all things be done Decently and in due Order ; our God is the God of Order , and they that fear him love good Order . Now 't is evident , our present Controversie lies not with Persons , that being weak in the Faith scruple Meats , and Esteem one day above another , nor with such as do Conscientiously scruple to proceed with us in some Outward Matters of Order or Discipline , and desire only to wait in quietness until satisfied by inward Light and Conviction ; but with some few Persons that think themselves Strong , and Wiser than all their Brethren besides , and thereupon are Restless and Turbulent in their Opposition and Gainsaying Spirit . So that the Case in Controversie or Difference may be in General thus stated , viz. They cry out , Imposition , too much Severity , Urging with Severity , &c. We complain of OPPOSITION against things ( in themselves Innocent and Needfull for due Order ) and against drawing back into a Libertine Spirit , Contempt and Gain-saying in W. R. and a few that are his Abettors . They cry against outward Forms , Methods and Order , Visible Form of Church-Government and Discipline , pretending a fear of getting too much into the Form , going from the Power , Inward Teacher , &c. We may rather plead , a fear of the other Extream , i. e. that by opposing Forms , due Order and Methods , they 'l be so in Form confused and void of good Order , due Methods and Discipline , that they are in danger to let up a Libertine Spirit , Looseness , Ranterism , Wilfulness and Contempt in Youth against the godly Care , Oversight , good Government and Order in the Church of Christ , that through their neglect of true Judgment , due Care and Order , they 'l let in Ranterism and Confusion , and the Spirit and Anarchy of the Ranters over them . This is our serious Sence and State of the Case , which we recommend to God's faithful Witness inward , and to the Consciences of all sincere tender-hearted Friends , who are zealous for God's Glory , and the Honour of his holy Name and Truth . Disaffect . XLV . Preface , pag. 11 , 12 , 13. W. R. on G. F ' s words , in a Letter from Amsterdam , the 14th of the 7th Moneth , 1677. he thus cites G. F's words , viz. And you that have given your Testimony against that Spirit , stand in your Testimony till they answer by Condemnation : And do not strive and make Bargains with That which is out of the Truth . Against which W. R. proceeds thus , viz. Clearly shews a design of Imposition , and that so far as in him lies , to obstruct Friends from Bargaining with such whom he condemns . By which , if his meaning be , that he would not have Friends to discourse with such , nor yet to agree about any orderly Conference , in order to a Reconciliation ▪ or hearing of Differences ; then his own Practice afterward condemns his own Direction , in submiting to a limitted Meeting with me within the City of Bristol , in the 12th Moneth , 1677. Gainsayers were to be convinced by sound Doctrine — And whether 't is not Rational to conclude , that G. F. who endeavours that others should avoid such Conferences , doth not give just cause of Jealousie , that he is of that Number , whom the Apostle reputed Ungodly , Vain Talkers and Deceivers ? But if otherwise his meaning be , that such whom he condemns , have no right to Bargain , Buy or Sell , until they answer by Condemnation , then I may justly term that to be a Mark of the Beast , spoken of Rev. 13. 17. where 't is thus said , No Man might buy nor sell , save he that had the Mark or Name of the Beast . Let the Reader take either of these two Meanings ( for a third I cannot think of . ) And 't is the Mark of a Deceiver , of such as dwell on the Earth , which are the Terms wherein John ( Rev. 13. 14. ) described the Beast . He that hath an Ear to hear , let him hear . Observe . He gives a Positive Judgment against G. F. as a Deceiver , upon his own Uncertain Suppositions of his meaning . And that because he cannot think of a Third , he supposes doubtfully G. F's Meaning two wayes , that is , if his meaning [ By not making Bargains ] be , that he would not have Friends discourse with such , or not buy or sell with them ( concluding it must be the one or the other of these , by bidding the Reader take either of these two Meanings ) and 't is the Mark of a Deceiver , the Mark of the Beast , &c. He has falsly supposed two Meanings , or two [ If 's ] and thereupon given his Positive Judgment to render G. F. a Deceiver , comparing Him with the Beast , and as causing others to receive his Mark , &c. And what for ? but for Exhorting Friends to keep to their Testimony against that Spirit , ( to wit , the Spirit of Division and Seperation ) and not to strive and make Bargains with that which is out of the Truth . The true Intent whereof was not to make Peace with that Spirit in its own Terms , nor to come under it contrary to Truth 's Testimony ; but W. R. turns the words from Spirit to Persons ; whereas G. F's meaning could not be to forbid Friends having any Discourse or orderly Conference for the Convincement of the Persons mistaken thereby , nor yet to forbid Friends buying and selling or Trading with any of them ; therefore W. R's supposed Meanings are both False , Dark and Silly , and his positive Judgment Wicked and Malicious , void of all Sincerity , as well as of Reason or good Argument ; and if it be accounted plain Forgery materially to alter the Sence of another Mans words , as W. R. confesseth , 5th part , p. 84. then is he himself guilty of plain Forgery in this case ; for he hath so materially altered the Sense and Meaning of G. F's words : And W. R's Comparison betwixt G. F. and the Beast , and between answering by Condemnation , and the Mark of the Beast , are Absurd , Malicious and Wicked , as if he had told us , That G. F. in advising for Condemnation upon that Spirit of Division , did advise Persons to receive the Mark of the Beast ; and on the other hand , that the Beast in causing both small and great to receive his Mark , did cause them to own Condemnation upon that Spirit of Division : We never had such a Description given of the Mark of the Beast before . And why did W. R. draw his supposed doubtful Meanings on his [ IF 's ] and give his positive Judgment against G. F. as a Deceiver , causing men to receive the Mark of the Beast , &c. without first enquiring of , and hearing G. F. give his own Sense and Meaning ? Is not he herein condemned out of his own Mouth ? even in that which he has much pleaded and insisted upon , to wit , in his enveighing against Judging any man without hearing him ; Judging the Merit of the Cause , without hearing the same ; Judging and Censuring a Person Unheard , in the Defence of himself , as being a Grand Mark of Apostacy : Has he not greatly condemned this in his Preface , and other parts of his Book ? and that upon the Law and Manner of the Romans , citing John 7. 51. Acts 25. 16. and yet now is sound presently after Accusing and Condemning a Person without any Judicial hearing Face to Face , upon his own Malicious Suggestion , contrary to the plain Intent and Sence of his words ; whereas if he had first heard the Person accused Face to Face , no doubt but he could have given him a better Meaning upon his own words , than either to forbid Friends convincing Gainsayers , or buying and selling with them . But his great pretence for this false Interpretation is what he says in his Marginal Note , of One of his Correspondents that hath been Partner with him in a Merchandizing Trade , breaking off dealing with him in Partnership , giving for his Reason these words , viz. I CANNOT BUT REASONABLY EXPECT , THE HAND OF THE LORD MAY BE AGAINST THEE , AND THAT PERADVENTURE IN THE THINGS OF THE WORLD . The Person 's Name W. R. omits , which if he had told , would not have added any weight to his Cause , nor Credit to him in Religious Concerns . However , it appears , this his Correspondent had a Concern and Fear upon him , according as he expresses , which no wayes proves , that G. F's words were intended to discourage him or others from buying and selling with him . 'T was his own Concern and Care , who so broke off with W. R. which is none of G. F's or any of our Business . Let W. R. consider what Occasion he has given to provoke the Lord against him , by his Envy and Bitterness against his People . And whereas W. R. 5th part , pag. 87. cites what John Story said to the matter of Charge contained in Henry Sweeting's Certificate , viz. That these are not the first Lyes G. F. hath reported both against my self and the Meeting they call Seperate ; he hath not given us ground of late Years to expect any Right of Justice from him . Whereby ( if these be J. S. his words ) he takes it for granted , 1st , That the said H. S. his Certificate contains nothing but Truth in the Citation of G. F's words . And 2dly , He gives positive Judgment , that G. F. has reported Lyes therein , as not being the first Lyes . Howbeit , the Charge , as laid down and contained in the said Certificate , G. F. denyes , as a Perversion and Confounding his words , yea , as Horrid Lyes , except that of Drunkards and Swearers , as W. R. has cited G. F's Answer and Negation before H. S. his Certificate , 5th part , pag. 83. We think , that J. S. should not have taken the words so Hardly and Censoriously up against G. F. until he had been sure G. F. would have owned them directly , as laid down by H. S. and that upon a fair hearing Face to Face . Now the Question is , whether W. R. and J. S. have heard G. F. and his Accusers , Face and Face , concerning this Matter whereof he is accused by H. S. before he was Condemned and recorded as a Lyar therein ? If not ( as we presume they have not ) then whether they have therein done Judicially and Justly , according to their own Pretentions of Justice and Right , and their severally declaring against condemning any man before heard ; judging and censuring him when unheard in defence of himself , concerning the Crime laid against him ? And if it be a grand Mark of Apostacy and Persecution so to do , as W. R. signifies , we would know how they can escape their own Judgment herein , thus to condemn a Person , and that in Print , before he be heard or duely tryed in the Case ? And seeing also W. R. 2d part , pag. 76 , 77. thus saith , viz. That which to us seems to aggravate the Offence of the Sixty Six Subscribers is this , J. S. doth POSITIVELY affirm , That a great part of the Subscribers never spoke or sent to him about the matter ; we have great cause to doubt , that not a few , but many of the Subscribers ( IF NOT ALL ) † have given Judgment without hearing of either Party . Now we may still Question , 1st , Whether J. S. and W. R. did ever speak or send to G. F. ( the Party accused ) in this matter , before they condemned him to such Infamy ( as W. R. hath recorded him in Print ) for a Lyar. 2dly , Whether J. Story gave way to , allowed or advised , or doth really own the Printing of what he saith to H. Sweeting's Certificate against G. F. J. S. his plain Answer hereunto may justly be expected . 3dly , The Question is also , whether H. Sweeting , and the rest that Certified against G. F. on this point , were not a Party against him , when their Certificates were written ? 4thly , Whether their Certificates do not so much vary in their relations , as may justly render them of less Credit , and to be looked on as from Parties set against G. F. ? H. Sweeting certifies G. F. did say , That to the Seperate Meeeting there was Whores and Rogues , Drunkards and Swearers , and that there came a couple to be Marryed , and one stood up and said , Master Story , I take such a one to be my Wife , &c. M. B. testifies to G. F. thus , viz. That thou saidst , Master Story , I take such a one to be my Wife , and I take such a one to be my Husband , and eat Bread and drink Wine , go together like Whores and Rogues . See now how various & differing the Certificates are , as between saying , That to the said Meeting there was Whores & Rogues , Drunkards , &c. and go together like Whores and Rogues , &c. Seeing these Certificates are so differing in the manner of stating the matter ; the Question is , whether these Persons might not mistake in both upon failure of Memory or Prejudice , and might possibly mis-place the Words , if spoken ? However they might have been better imployed than to make such sorry Certificates , and so might W. R. than to publish a Judgment upon them without any Judicial hearing of the Parties Face to Face . And as for E. P. he appears angry against G. F. as one willing to be his Accuser , casting on him this perverse Insinuation , with an [ IF ] viz. So IF he did speak a Rabble of Lyes of People behind their Backs , be it upon his own Head. W. R. has publisht this doubtful and infamous Insinuation among his Testimonies against G. F. and its pretended in vindication of Truth too , pag. 84 , 85. part 5. And not only this , but there 's another [ IF ] against G. F. in E. P's pretended Testimony , viz. as IF he had surrounded the Countries to get up all the Miscarriages and Failings done and committed in time past ; Was ever such senseless Testimonies Printed before ? Herein E. P. has neither appeared Impartial , nor done Friendly , nor as he would be done by ; howbeit , to do him Right on the other hand , we understand that he gave not his consent to the Printing these angry Words of his ; how willing therefore was W. R. to rake up gather and receive any pittiful sorry Stuff up and down the Nation , to help to make up his partial , confused and revengeful Book withal ? Disaffect . XLVI . About Fleeing in Times of Persecution . W. R. 1st part , p. 30. Neither can we be at unity with the appearance of that spirit in any one that villifies others for Fleers in time of Persecution — when such an one hath appeared a Fleer himself . This compared with W. R.'s Charge in his Letter to G. F. dated the 3d day of the 10th Moneth , 1677. pag. 93 , 94. 4th part . There are endeavours to send Papers to and fro , to be spatter J. S. for going out of a Meeting when the Persecutors came ; yet I know that thou thy self hast been found in the like Action , and ( If Reports be true ) the FREQUENTEST of any Man that ever I heard , called by the Name of a Quaker . Observe . A very high and foul Charge to render G. F. a Flyer in times of Persecution , yea , the frequentest Flyer or Goer out of Meetings , when Persecutors came , of any man that ever he heard called by the Name of a Quaker . Oh sad ! Will any that has known G. F's many and frequent Sufferings , and long Imprisonments for the Truth 's sake , believe this Accusation , so grosly cast upon him , and that on no better Proof , than IF REPORTS BE TRUE ; when doubtless W. R. could not but know such Reports to be false . This is that Judicious and Conscientious Person William Rogers , that 's so severely set against Censuring and Judging Persons upon Reports , without hearing the Accusers and the accused Face to Face , who thus extrajudicially and grosly hath represented a Person in Print as the most frequent Flyer in times of Persecution , of any called a Quaker , that ever he heard of , and that upon Reports , with an If , i. e. IF REPORTS BE TRUE , but his pretences of Justice will not hide his manifest Injustice . It is to be noted that W. R. in his 2d part , pag. 88. has Printed these Reports against Jasper Batt , viz. That he went abroad Preaching , thereby occasioning sometimes twenty Pound Fines , sometimes forty Pound Fines to be imposed on the Hearers — whilst his Estate was well secured out of the Persecutors reach . And yet W. R. would be thought a very Just man in this case , by this False and Hypocritical pretence , pag. 89. viz. We are not willing to accuse on Report : When it is his frequent Practice against G. F. and others , which if he be Just towards Jasper Batt , in not accusing him upon Report , then he is very Unjust to G. F. in accusing and judging him upon Reports : And he hath not shewn himself Ingenious towards J. B. in Printing those Reports against him , to cast and leave an Odium upon him , which we are not bound to Credit all , either as undeniable Verities , or as justly stated by him upon bare Report . And this is not all , as to G. F. we must proceed further to find some more likely proofs for his Charge against G. F. of Flying in time of Persecution , and that is to some pretended Certificates and Testimonies in his fifth part , pag. 62 , 63. in the first whereof mention is made , Of a Meeting held in Broad-Mead in the City of Bristol , when Persecution attended Friends , and that G. F. stood up and spoke in the Meeting , and after departed out of the Meeting at a back pair of Stairs , a very considerable time before the Meeting broke up , and was not taken Prisoner that day ; and the ground of his departure at that time , we have cause to believe , was to avoid being taken Prisoner . Now M. G. M. N. and A. D. who are the Subscribers , we are sorry your Names should be exposed in Print to such an impertinent and silly Testimony as this , to gratifie an Envious Spirit against G. F. and we testifie , the Charge contained in it is no matter of Testimony , but an Accusation on your own belief , that his departure then was to avoid being taken Prisoner , nor do we remember any back pair of Stairs belonging to that Meeting , but such as were a common passage to it ; such Insinuation therefore was not kind nor friendly . To your Testimony , so called , William James saith , He also can bear Witness . And also Nathaniel Day saith thus , viz. I believe his so departing was to save himself from being taken by the Persecutors . [ How now N. D ? how comest thou in Print , as a Witness for W. R ? Look at home and mind thy own condition . ] But to the Matter , we have this to say , That as your Belief imports no matter of Testimony , so if the belief of all those who have appeared a Party with W. R. were taken and Recorded for Certificates and Testimonies against G. F. we might have more strange Testimonies ; suppose they believe as W. R. does , and are full of Jealousie , as he is , they might Write and Print such Testimonies as this , viz. We believe and are jealous that G. F. is an Apostate , an Innovator , an Imposer of Blind Obedience , a Deceiver , a Lyar , one that hath the Mark of the Beast , the greatest Fleer in times of Persecution , that ever we heard of , among any called Quakers , &c. according as W. R. hath represented him ; pray what kind of valid Testimonies would these be ? and of what Credit with impartial Readers ? from such as are a party with W. R. against G. F. Oh Friends ! consider what Impertinencies and silly Occasions PREJUDICE is apt to produce ; and we must tell W. R. that this kind of his proceeding to Print such pretended Testimonies , or rather Accusations , grounded on the Belief ( or Jealousie ) of a Party , is a new kind of process , neither Christian nor Legal ; has he heard the Accusers and the accused Face to Face in this matter , according to his own rule ? We presume he has not ; then what a new uncouth and irregular course has he taken to Infamize a Person in Print , upon pretended Testimonies and Certificates , without any real Proof or lawful Evidence on any Judicial procedure ? At what an easie rate can he Defame and Expose Friends by Name to publick censure in Print ? Besides , ( Friends , M. G. M. N. A. D. W. J. and N. D. ) your pretended Testimonies bear no Date , as to the Day and Time , when that Meeting in Bristol was held , when G. F. departed ( as you believe ) to avoid Imprisonment , nor as to the day and time of the making and signing your said Testimonies , nor do you shew how long it was between the time of the said Meeting , and the making and signing your said Testimonies , and we may question whether they were formed and drawn up by your selves , or by W. R. or whether you were not drawn by him to sign them ? And whether it was by your advice or consent that he Printed them ? However , Pray , for the time to come , be you more careful , and no more drawn to sign such Insignificant and Impertinent Testimonies or Certificates against any Friend or Brother , to gratifie an Envious Revengeful Spirit , as is W. R's . And now Samuel Hollister , how comest thou to expose thy Ancient deceased Uncle's Name in such a Certificate as this ? viz. I do also remember that my Uncle Dennis Hollister did acquaint me , That G. F. did advise him to absent himself from Meetings in time of Persecution . Hast thou herein shewn that Reverent respect to thy Aged , Grave Uncle , as thou oughtst to have done , thus to expose his Name so long after his decease ? which doubtless had he been alive , he would either have prevented , or severely reprehended thee for ; and we may justly question whether thou hast given a Just and Impartial account of thy deceased Uncle's Words in this matter , when he is not here to answer for himself ; to be sure thou hast not given a Circumstantial Account to render it credible to us ; and dost thou not know , that Circumstances may greatly vary matters ? Nor do we believe that G. F. gave him any such general Advice as to absent himself from Meetings in time of Persecution ; for he absolutely denys it , and says , He did encourage him to the contrary , when he was able or capable . Dost thou not know and remember , that thy Uncle was an Aged , Weakly and Sickly man , that much kept his Chamber in Winter time , and therefore sometimes unfit to endure such Hardship and Sufferings as Friends were often exposed to , at Meetings ? Was he then meet to expose himself to stand in the Streets , when Friends were either haled out , or kept out of their Meetings in the Streets ? Thou sayest thou Remembrest thy Uncle did acquaint thee , but thou certifies neither Day nor Year when . And suppose G. F. spake any thing in tenderness to thy Uncle , with respect to his Age and Infirmity of Body , it could not amount to any such general advice as to absent from Meetings in time of Persecution , he having encouraged him to the contrary . However , could it be Just in thee to expose both thy Uncle and G. F. as thou hast done , to gratifie W. R. his Spirit of Enmity against Friends , in such a Certificate ? Whether of thy framing , and whether Printed by thy advice or consent , or not , thou canst best Answer ; we do not believe it will be grateful to Dennis Hollister's honest Children and Family , to see their Ancient , Grave and Honoured Father's Name thus exposed in Print , so long after his Decease , to gratifie an Envious , Quarelsom , Proud , Disdainful Spirit . Disaffect . XLVII . W. R. 1st part , pag. 31. Neither can we be at Unity with the Appearance of that Spirit ( be it in whomsoever it will ) that can Recriminate Men as Tythe-Payers , who have been faithfull in their Testimony , relating to Tythes , and yet adviseth Friends to purchase Tythes , which is G. F's Case , with relation to his Advice unto Nathaniel Crips and Robert Arch , according as is treated on and proved by Certificates under their Hands . Observe . This indeed is a Heavy Charge and Judgment against G. F. and the matter if duely and judicially proved , with the Accusers and the Accused Face to Face , before Competent Persons , would be as justly condemnable , as for one to judge fleeing in Times of Persecution , and yet be the frequentest Fleer himself : But we question whether W. R. hath given this Charge against G. F. on any such due and regular proceeding and hearing of both Parties Face to Face , and that before a proper Judicature ; but this we presume he has not , although he has given positive Sentence , that 't is G. F's Case , to wit , To blame men as Tythe-Payers , and yet advise a Friend to purchass Tythes : But this G. F. denyes . Let 's Examine the Certificates mentioned , 5th part , pag. 54 , 55. which W. R. cites for Testimony against G. F. viz. This is to Certifie , &c. That G. F. being several Years past at my House — I told him , That in the Parish where I dwell there is both Priest and Impropriator , and that both of them claimed Tythes of the Inhabitaints ; and amongst our Discourse that we had there-about , G. F. then advised me , To Purchase the Tythes of them : This he spake in Love to me , and I took it no otherwise ; but if he will prosecute others for such things whereof he is more guilty himself , he will much loose his Honour , and hardly ever recover it . Thus far Nathaniel Crips , dated , the 23d of the 11th Moneth , 1677. Robert Arch his Testimony , viz. G. F. being at my House , ( as I remember , it was the time that he came into our Country to set up the Monethly and Quarterly Meetings ) and there being several Writings read of G. F's in which there was written ( as I remember ) That such Friends as did pay Tythes , should be Exhorted or Admonished , &c. — In my Garden I told him , There was two or three Priests , and two Impropriators did claim Tythe of me , or of my Land , &c. — Said G. F. to me , Canst not thou buy it ? Buy it ( said he ) I answered him , That I did look upon it to be no odds or difference between paying of it and buying of it . Dated , the 18th of the 11th Moneth , 1677. Observe . We grant , that the Buying Tythes , or Compounding with the Priests for them , is not consistent ( but contrary to ) our Testimony ; but G. F. positively denyes , that he so advised or intended ; there has been some Mistake in the Case , 't is probable ; and here is no date of the day and year when he so advised , in either of these Certificates or Testimonies , as W. R. calls them : The one saith , it was several Years past ; the other says , as he remembers , it was that time that he came into their Country . It seems , 't was several ( or many ) Years after they had some private Discourse apart with G. F. that they made their Certificates or Testimonies from it , and that upon the Credit of their Memories , which might easily fail them in so many years time ; and which incertainty W. R. has grounded his Charge and Judgment against G. F. upon , as having advised a Friend to Purchase Tythes , thus to make this a matter of Credit against G. F. he layes it down , under the Title of Testimony , with his own Judgment presumed on it , to wit , that he so advised them to buy their Tythes , which is contrary to G. F's known Testimony and Principle , who has been for several Years , and is at this present in trouble for Non-Payment of Tythe , being under prosecution at Law , because he cannot comply with the Plantiff , which is far from buying off his Tythe . And that which renders these mens Certificates of less Credit , is , that G. F. would have them that paid Tythe admonished : Strange ! what admonished against Tythe , and at the same time advise to the buying off Tythe ? that 's very Improbable . And why should he advise them to purchase or buy the Tythes of the Priests ? For what time , or how long could they sell them , or give them Title to them ? Hath the Priest the Tythe any longer than for his Life ? and how uncertain is that ? But hath not N. C. appeared an Accuser of G. F. as being more Guilty himself , & c ? And does W. R. in point of Judicial Proceedings , allow of an Accuser or Informer to be a Competent Witness ? we suppose not ; some of his Party have distinguished between a Witness and an Accuser ; but he has taken N. C's Information for Testimony against G. F. yea , for granted ; he has given his Censure and Judgment upon it , that G. F. did so advise to the Purchasing or Buying of Tythes , both of the Priest and Impropriators . But before he gave this Judgment and exposed those Certificates in Print , did he Examine and hear all the Parties concerned Face to Face ? Did he Examine and hear all Circumstances on all hands relating to the Accuser and Accused , face to face ? We may presume he did not . And who induced N. C. and R. A. to make and give out their Certificates upon a Private Discourse so many years after ? Have they not done Unkindly and Prejudicially therein , and W. R. more basely to Print them , and give a Judgment thereupon , without hearing the Parties face to face ? Where was his Justice ? his Conscientiousness and his Legality pretended , according to his own Plea upon John 7. 51. Doth our Law judge any man before it hear him , and know what he doth ? And Acts 25. 16. For him which is Accused , to have his Accusers face to face , and have Licence to Answer for himself concerning the Crime laid against him ; and not to judge and censure a Person in matter of Fact , when unheard in Defence of himself ? has not W. R. much pleaded for this Method ? but how has he kept to it ? Did he hear G. F. and N. C. and R. A. face to face , and G. F. answer for himself , and make his own Defence before them ? and that before such time as he had exposed and promulgated their Certificates , and his Censure and Judgment against G. F. upon them ? If not , ( as we are apt to think he did not ) then what gross Hypocrisie , Irregularity , as well as Unfair and Unchristian Dealing , is he guilty of ? And how False and Inconsistent with himself is he in these matters discovered to be ? And how will he escape the Grand Mark of Apostacy ( in his own Terms and Sense ) in judging and censuring a Person unheard in Defence of himself before his Accusers face to face ? Let the Impartial and Prudent judge . And now , N. C. thou hast known something what belongs to the Administration of Justice , dost thou not know , that the Omission of Material Circumstances , in point of Evidence , may greatly alter the Case ? And what probable Circumstances hast thou given in thy pretended Testimony ? How tender is Common Law and Justice in such Cases ? Chief Justice Cook saith , Quod in Criminalibus Probatione debent Esse Luce clariores , Cook 's Institut . 3d part , fol. 210. i. e. That in Criminals , Proofs ( or Testimonies ) ought to be more clear than the Light. And Michael Dalton plainly shews how many wayes Justice may be perverted ; amongst which he mentions , When they proceed hastily , without due Examination and Consideration of the Fact , and of all MATERIAL CIRCUMSTANCES , without hearing both Parties ; for as one saith , ( Qui aliquid Statuerit , Parte inaudita altera , aequum Licet Statuerit haud equus . est ) He that shall Judge or Determine of a Matter , the one Party being Unheard , although he shall Judge Aright , yet is he not a just Judge . We do confess , and will grant , That where Matters Criminal of outward Fact or Overt Act are charged , 't is most safe and judicial to have the Parties face to face , and a fair and equal Hearing and Proof , before Judgment be given . But this is not the Case of W. R. who in many things is Informer , Accuser and Judge , and herein has assumed to give Judgment without any such equal Hearing or Evidence . What Concerns Matters of Charge , Trespass or Crime upon Persons , in common Law and Justice , ought to have fair and judicial Hearing of all Parties , and sufficient Evidence Outward , of the Fact , before Judgment be past ; but true Judgment of Spirits , Angels , or Inward States , considered abstractly , without outward Evidence of Matter of Fact ( whether they be Good or Evil ) this cannot be without a Spiritual Discerning , Inward Sense , or Divine Revelation given by Christ Jesus , whereby both Right and Wrong Spirits and States have been Discovered , even Satan , when Transformed as an Angel of Light , and his Ministers , when transformed like the Ministers of Christ. And W. R. 1st part , pag. 2. himself grants , The Evidence of our heavenly Union to spring from that which neither the Carnal Eye , nor the Carnal Ear could be Witnesses of : And pag. 24. We who had believed in the Light of our Lord Jesus Christ , had the Evidence in our selves , that we were of the true Brotherhood , and Members of Christs Body . So that he has granted an Inward and Spiritual Evidence in Spiritual Cases , which is higher than the outward . But to the occasion of N. C ' s Certificate , aforesaid , What kind of Discourse could be between him and G. F. that he could ground HIS CHARGE upon ? ( as W. R. calls it ) Or what Discourse could they have that might any wayes seem ( in N. C's Apprehention ) to look like an Advice , to Buy his Tythe of Priest and Impropriator ? for we are not willing to leave him under the suspicion of a designed Forgery in this Case , but rather in Charity , to impute it partly to the Infirmity of his Age , and Defect of Memory , that he has thus represented G. F. as having advised him to buy his Tythe , and that this said Certificate was prejudicially drawn from him so many years after that private Discourse he had with G. F. which he grounds it upon , as 't is very possible and easie for an Aged Man's Memory to fail him , in such a Case , that is , in making a Prejudicial Certificate or Charge , upon a private Discourse , many Years after the Discourse , as his against G. F. was ; What then could be the Matter or Subject of that Discourse , which he might very likely be Mistaken in ? Was there any thing said about Buying off Tythe on any account ? To this we may cite G. F's own Answer to W. R's Queries , in a large Manuscript , dated , the 20th of the 9th Moneth , 1678. in these words , viz. I could hardly have believed that N. Crips would have done such a thing , as I told him , when I came to his House , that he did confess he had sent such a Certificate to Bristol to W. R. as I take it . I asked him , When it was that I should bid him buy off his Tythes , and what Year ? he told me , He could not tell — he said it was in the Field , but could not tell what Year ; then the thing came into my mind , what I said to him , his Son , and others , about twenty Years since , how that — H. Lower came from Cornwall to London , and endeavoured to Convince several of the Parliament-men how they might ease the Nation of the grand Oppression of Tythe — and to buy off all the Impropriators Tythes , ( the manner of the expedient for the Money to buy them off , we here omit ) and this I might say would do very well , unto him and several others ; but for him to turn this and say I advised him to buy off his Tythes , he doth me a great deal of wrong ; and he told me then , it was his Principle to pay his Tythes to the Impropriators — I was sorry for him , that he neither writ nor spoke to me about it this twenty Years , I took it unkindly from him ; and if he doth give forth an Hundred Certificates , and W. R. spread them abroad contrary to what I have here asserted , I shall not give Credit to them ; none will that fear the Lord , that knows my Innocency , and the Falshood of thy Charges , &c. Thus far G. F. By all which it appears that this G. F's discourse concerned something H. L. had to propound to the then Parliament , to make some Provision for the buying off the Impropriators Tythes , and not to advise him or any perticular Person charged with those Tythes to buy them off , such a mistake does greatly alter the Case : And we may add , that whatever the private discourse was between G. F. and N. C. when in Friendship and Kindness , was it not very unfair and unfriendly in N. C. to frame a Certificate thereupon so many Years after against G. F. and not only so , but to put it into the Hands of W. R. an Adversary to G. F. and others , and then for W. R. to expose it in Print , as a Charge against G. F. to make him a Transgressor , an Adviser to that in Private , which was contrary to his Testimony in Publick , which G. F. hath so plainly denyed , and testified against . But N. C. we would ask thee a Question or two farther : 1st , Whether two Publick Friends in the Ministry , after a Meeting at Nailsworth , in the 6th Moneth , 1679. did not ask thee , Whether thou gavest thy Advice or Consent , that William Rogers should insert thy Certificate concerning George Fox , about buying of the Tythes , in his Paper or Letter which he sent to the Yearly Meeting before ; and whether thou gavest William Rogers any order so to Publish it to the Nation , as he endeavoured in his Paper ? 2dly , Whether thou didst not then give this Answer , viz. NO SURE ; I gave no such Advice ; I knew nothing of his so doing ; he had no order from me , to spread it any further , than to produce it at Bristol , if there was occasion , when G. F. went down thither , I hearing that he then intended to proceed or give Testimony against J. S. and J. W. concerning Tythes , and I was desired to give that Certificate , only to produce then at Bristol , if there was such occasion , not expecting it should have gone any further ? Canst thou deny this to be thy Answer ? 3dly , We desire to know , who it was that desired thee to give that Certificate ? 4thly , Whether thou gavest any order to W. R. to put thy Certificate in Print against G. F ? and whether or no thou dost now approve of his so doing ? And we do not find , that W. R. doth clear himself from the Censure of breaking Covenant , in his sending forth a Relation of some Passages discoursed on between himself and other Friends at Bristol , in the 12th Moneth , 1677. with his own and William Ford's Name to it ( Entituled , A brief Relation of some Passages happening among the People called Quakers at the City of Bristol , since the late coming of George Fox , George Whitehead and William Penn , in the 11th Moneth , 1677. ) contrary to the Propositions and Agreement made between William Penn and himself , &c. by his alledging , that in that Agreement , There is not a word intimating , that no other Relation should go forth ; and that there was not one word of Covenant or Agreement , that any Person should be obliged not to send abroad a Narative , whether it might relate to all , any or either of the Meetings , part 5. pag. 15 , & 88. Whereas he knows the Method was mutually agreed upon , for a Narative or Record of all that each Party thought fit to have written , and which should be finally agreed by both Persons , to be a true Record , Minute or Memorial of the Conference ; and that any Friend present had the Liberty to speak his or her Mind ; and that every such thing said by Friends on either side , if desired , might also be recorded , as more fully intimated in the first and third Propositions agreed upon , 5th part , pag. 10 , 11. and that all things so agreed on to be Recorded , should be subscribed by both Parties , and by , at least , six Credible Persons of each side , as in the second Proposition . Now though this could not be done at the end of each Meeting , as was proposed , ( for want of Time and Opportunity to read over and Correct what was done , for such mutual Subscription ) yet neither the Agreement , nor the Intent of it gave any Liberty for one Party alone , without the other , to send out a Narative or Relation of Passages relating to any of those Meetings , as W. R. did send out a Relation containing divers Reflections and his Disaffections , which were the very subjects partly debated on , without the Answers of those Friends charged by him , wherein we cannot perceive , that he either acted justly , or as a man keeping to the Agreement in that matter , but the contrary ; and therefore his saying , That there was not a word intimating , that no other Relation should go forth : This appears a mean shift ; he might as well say , that in the Agreement or Covenant made , for the manner of proceeding to , and subscribing a Narative or Record by both Parties , there is not one word , that either Party should do contrary , or send out any Narative prejudicial to the other Party , contrary to that Agreement or Covenant ; no , what need of any such word ? 'T were absurd , the Method and Rules were agreed upon for a Narative or Record , by mutual Consent and Subscription , and W. R. hath done contrary , in sending out a Prejudicial , Partial and Reflecting Account of his own ; therefore hath W. R. therein acted Irregularly and Unjustly ; and there is in being & readiness a fuller Account & Demonstration of his Perfidious and Injurious Proceeding , contrary to Agreement in this Case ; and therefore we do not understand , that he has gotten himself from under the aforesaid Censure , but that the more he strives in it , and other Matters ( that we esteem him justly charged and chargeable with ) the more he will but manifest his own Impertinency , as he has in this and many other Cases . Disaffect . XLVIII . In G. F's Questions to J. W. 4th part , pag. 8. Question 3. Whether didst thou read or consent to be read in a Quarterly-Meeting at Kendall a Paper that directed , that the VVay of Truth should be as the Way of a Ship in the Sea , or such like ? [ He Answers thus , viz. Answ. Nay ; but if they mean no Impression of Form left behind , I like it well . ( And J. S. gives this Answer , viz. I consented to a Paper that had some such Words , but knew not 't was A. Pearson ' s , pag. 13. ) Observe . We are wholly dissatisfied with this Answer ; yet in point of Charity we may suppose , that they intended not to exclude the Power of Godliness from having its remaining Impressions upon the Hearts ; but how this can be without leaving any Impression of the Form of Godliness , appears not consistent with our ancient Testimony , viz. The Power brings forth its own Form , there is the form of Godliness , the form of sound Words , the Example of Christ and his faithful Followers and Ministers , the Foot-steps of the holy Flock of Christ which we are to walk in , as J. W. but a few Words after his Answer in the same page granteth . But what a sad thing would it be if Friends in our Age should give way to such an Opinion , as to leave no Impression of the form of Godliness upon their Children that succeed them , who are to be trained up in the way that they should walk in the fear of God ? It had been more safe and clear for J. W. to have testified against the precedent VVords , viz. That the Way of Truth should be as the Way of a Ship in the Sea , than to allow them such a meaning and likening as no Impression of Form to be left behind ; for in Prov. 30. 19. where the VVay of an Eagle in the Air , the VVay of a Serpent upon a Rock , the VVay of a Ship in the midst of the Sea , &c. are mentioned , it follows , that such is the Way of an Adultrous Woman , vers . 20. Her way is compared to that of a Ship in the Sea , &c. but so is not the VVay of Truth : VVe hope in the Lord , that both the Power and Form of Godliness , Christian Order and Examples in our Age will have lasting and remaining IMPRESSIONS on many Souls for Ages to come . Disaffect . XLIX . Fourth part , pag. 31 , 32. VV. R. Pride must have a fall ; and that my Perswasion is , the Lord hath suffered this great Evil to come upon him , and to be thus manifested unto those who have professed his Name , that they may have no dependency on any other Name , that may be given under Heaven , but the Name of Jesus , the Eternal Son of the Living God. Observe . We are not only greatly dissatisfied with the severe judgment contain'd in these words against G. F. to his defamation , but also with the more general Censure , unjustly insinuated thereby against such as profess the Name of the Lord among us , as having been , at least , in danger of a Dependency on some Other Name under Heaven , than the Name of Christ Jesus , the Eternal Son of the Living God : This is to expose Friends to the Jealousie and Suspition of their Enemies and Persecutors , as for being incident to Idolize and set up Mortal Man , or the Name of some Mortal , above the Name of the Eternal Son of God , for Salvation ; which we abhor , as Idolatrous , and contrary to the Testimony and Sence we have of the Son of God revealed in his People for Life and Salvation . Disaffect . L. Fourth part , pag. 43. in J. W's Letter to G. F. are these words , viz. If J. N's Opposition consisted in NOT REPROVING HIS COMPANY , when they Bowed to him , and Cryed , HOSANA ; let it be a Warning to thee , and Reprove THY COMPANY when they give thee the Titles and Honour due to the Highest . Observe . [ REPROVE THY COMPANY , &c. ] An Odious and Foul Aspersion , as well as General , upon all that have a tender Respect for G. F. for who else can he term his Company ? and we utterly detest and abhor both the Accusation and Practice of giving to any Creature the Titles and Honour due to the Highest : And what is the Tendency of such Reproach , but even to render many Innocent Friends Blasphemous ? and consequently ( and especially , as now in Print ) to raise great Enmity , Persecution and Contempt in Truth 's Adversaries against G. F. and others , if the Lord did not prevent , and stand by the Innocent ? Is it possible such bitter Invective words should proceed from J. W. against his Elder Brother , and other Friends ? 'T is real matter of Grief unto us , to see such black Lines from him , who has known better things : And set Case any in Weakness have spoken too highly , unadvisedly or unwarrantably , out of an esteem of any Person , could it be either tender or like a Christian Spirit , to expose them to the World , to the Reproach and Fury of their Adversaries ? Has not this been the way of our Profest Enemies to render some Friends Admirers and Adorers of Persons or Creatures , setting up Man , & c ? What better , in these Cases , do these professed Friends than John Pennyman , Robert Rich , Jeoffery Bullock , Controversie Ended , Tyranny & Hypocrisie , Quakers Quibbles , Spirit of the Hat , & c ? [ Perverse Pamphlets ] Oh John ! where is the Antient Love , Tenderness and Regard to the Honour of Truth ? Thou hast known many of us understand better than to Idolize Men or Creatures . How came thy Letter in Print , wherein thou hast shewn so much Harshness and Severity against G. F. and those thou slightly termest HIS COMPANY ? Dost thou not know , that this kind of smiting at G. F. and those that own him ( or have a tender esteem of him ) tends to bring the People called Quakers into Infamy and Reproach , and to add to their Affliction , by smiting at them through him , or smiting them upon his Back ? And canst thou reasonably think , thou servest Truth 's Interest by such kind of smiting at thy Brethren and Fellow-Servants , as thou hast formerly esteemed them ? And did W. R. Print these thy Letters by thy Advice or Order ? or did he do it Voluntarily on his own Head ? And dost thou own his Printing them , or not ? If thou art but so far unconcerned in his Work , as not to approve or allow of his thus Printing , we desire thy plain and ingenious Answer ; and whether W. R. has rightly cited thy words , which we have recited , and complain of ? Disaffect . LI. Part 4. pag. 77 , 78 , 79. In another Letter of J. W's to G. F. are these Passages , viz. It may be feared , many do Eye more the Orders from thee , than they Eye the Lord in them , accusing and judging all out of Truth , that Practice not with all speed from them , using all FORCE they can devise , according to the Power they have , to Compell all to them , Censuring all Friends out of the Unity , that come not to Practice with them , which is the greatest Penalty and Persecution they can Inflict for WANT OF OUTWARD POWER . [ Compared with the following Passage , pag. 78 , 79. viz. ] For the Enemy of Truth hath taken occasion from thy Orders , to beget a false Birth in many — And Angry Proceedings about them , of late declare , which was not before in our Age , neither did Heads nor Horns of the Dragon appear to cast down the holy People , by lying against them , saying , that they oppose the holy Orders ; and by approving of such Proceedings is Satan let loose in our Time , to deceive ; and all that see his Transformings , he casts Floods out of his Mouth against them , to carry them away , and cast such to the Earth , wanting nothing to effect his Design but the OUTWARD POWER to carry them on to KILL ; for his Wrath is against them that keep the Testimony of Jesus Christ , and such he accuseth of fleshly Liberty , and loose Walking . Observe . We look upon these unkind and bitter Passages and Insinuations to be very Pernitious , and as proceeding from a wrong Conception , and Birth of Cruel Jealousies , under the pretence of fear concerning many , and not from the Spirit of Christ ; and the Construction made of some's Censuring some out of the Unity , for their Opposition ( to such Orders , or orderly proceedings , as they account good and wholsome ) as the greatest Penalty and Persecution they can Inflict ; and that they would Inflict greater , if they had but outward Power , this appears very Uncharitable , even the same that our open professed Adversaries have often Insinuated against us , and greatly tends to stir up Persecution against us , as do also the following words , viz. WANTING NOTHING TO EFFECT HIS DESIGN BUT THE OUTWARD POWER TO CARRY . THEM ON TO KILL . Here , John , thou hast severely prejudged many , which we are assured , thou hast no Proof for , but thy own Jealousie . Remember how thy Friend and Advocate W. R. hath severely censured such kind of Prejudicate Proceedings , as the censuring and judging Persons without a Hearing , or Proof of Matter of Fact ; but hast thou heard any Friends ever grant , they want only the outward Power to carry them on more severely to Persecute and Kill you ? Oh John ! we are perswaded thou must meet with an Hour of Tribulation for this Prejudicial and Uncharitable Dealing ! Were ever worse things exposed in Print against us before ? And wouldst thou be thus dealt by ? We pray God to give thee a sight of the Danger of these things , and tender thy Heart unto Repentance , and a Return to thy first Love ; for thou hast known better things than these thy Printed Letters bespeak ; which if thou gavest way to the Printing them , thou wast not aware how they would ( and assuredly do ) make against thy Interest , and your Cause , which W. R. Pleads and Advocates for . And we would seriously ask , Whether such bitter Invectives and Infamies , cast upon G. F. and others , in thy Letters , do not rather shew forth the Heads and Horns of the Dragon , than the Zeal of any Friends doth in testifying for good Order and Government in the Church of Christ , and against fleshly Liberty and loose Walking ? which if any such have exceeded in their zeal , or their zeal at any time hath not been so prudently and warily mannaged ( in thy or your account ) as should have been ; yet to judge them as so far possessed with the Wrath of the Dragon , as that by them he accuseth such as keep the Testimony of Jesus , with fleshly Living and loose Walking ; this we think is very Hard and Uncharitable : and we pray thee consider these things . And let it be observed also , that in W. R's Letter to G. F. part 4. pag. 97. is this passage , viz. Therefore is the zeal of the Lord of Hosts kindled against that ungodly insinuating Spirit , that makes it its business to bespatter J. S. and J. W. whereby the Simple-hearted may be in danger to be turned out of the Way . Upon which we must needs note , how Zealous he is for these two Persons , and what a great stress he layes upon them & their Reputations ; as if to write or speak what reflects upon them , might indanger the turning the Simple-hearted out of the Way ; and why so ? We may suppose 't is because he thinks that many Simple-hearted have a good Opinion of them ; though we would tell him , not so many since VV. R. became such a furious Advocate for them as before ; a great many are offended at his Book , and at him for suffering it to come forth , and him to go on in their defence , without shewing publick and absolute dislike thereof . The truth on 't is , whatever J. S. and J. W. may think of W. R. he has been Instrumental extreamly to lessen their Esteem ; though we do not approve of any making it their business to bespatter them , neither do we know of any Friends that so do ; However W. R. has made it a great part of his business to Bespatter and Revile many of the Servants of Christ , whom many simple-hearted Ones has a good belief and esteem of : He has taken but little care to prevent their being turned out of the way by his bespattering such , and that by Name in Print , wherein his great Partiality and Injustice is the more evident . Disaffect . LII . W. R. third part , pag. 28. I now appeal to God's Witness in all Consciences , whether the outward establishment of outward Government , under the Notion of Christ's Government , doth not seem to square more with the Principles of such who look for his second coming in some outward Bodily Appearance , than with the Principles of those who conclude his second coming to be by his Spiritual Appearance in the Heart . Observe . Under pretence of this solemn Appeal , here is a perverse Insinuation and false Comparison to represent us , as squaring with ( as we take it , he means ) the Principle of Christ's Personal Reign ( i. e. by himself alone ) in outward Power and Dominion : This compared with J. W's words before-cited ( about wanting the outward Power , &c. ) tends to make us Offensive still , and to expose us to Suffering . Why will he admit of no outward Government in the Church , called Christ's Government ? Is not this to account all outward Government Antichrist's ? And doth not this square with such whom he compares us to ? Surely William Rogers has known otherwise and better things of US , that is , of the People called QUAKERS , who own Christ's Second Coming to be by his Spirit in the Heart , Principally and Immediately to set up His Government there , and to bring forth true Judgment , Righteousness and good Order ( in his Church and People ) which extends and appears even Outwardly : Christ Rules both Inwardly and Outwardly ; Inwardly by his Spirit , and Outwardly by his faithful Ministers ; not by the Will of Man , nor by the Arm of Flesh , nor by Carnal Force , but in a Gospel way , and of the Increase of his Government and Peace , there shall be no End : His Government is a peaceable Government , and Endless , in the Increase and Peace . The manner and Extent of his Government , and the Concern of his Ministers and Servants therein , is more fully opened before . Here follows a few Collections on a Re-view of some of W. R's Concessions or Acknowledgments to Truth , and his Severe Uncharitable smiting against G. F. and others , with brief Notes on them , omitted in the precedent Discourse ; also a few Questions added , of Concern to J. S. and J. W. [ A Concession to Truth in pretence . ] Part 1. pag. 56. We account it our Duty to follow the Appearance of the Spirit of God , in the meanest Member , when our Consciences are Convicted that 't is the Appearance of the Spirit . Observe . The great difference then is in this , that all Instructions and Precepts these men oppose are such as they do not believe the Spirit of God to be the Mover of , nor have they an esteem of such Members or Ministers , whose Counsel they reject ; for all who feel Unity in the Spirit , are of one Heart and Mind , in the great Essential Commands relating to Godliness and Honesty , and are not willing to be at variance about any ●●●er , Outward or Circumstantial Matters ; but to be so tenderly condescending one to another in those things , as they may keep their Peace and sweet Society , so as their Actions may concur to one good and principal End ; here the weak are supported , and the feeble strengthened , as the Fathers and Aged know how to bear with Children in their Infancy ; 't is the Contentious and Obstinate , the Self-willed and Conceited that make Opposition and Disturbance , and cause Divisions and Strife ; their Minds are not peaceable , nor they Sociable , but break the Bonds of Society ( like Unruly Cattle , that will not be quiet , but be Wincing , Pushing and Biting at their Fellows , until seperated — ) being such as run into Looseness , against all Order and Government , till the very Spirit and Anarchy of the Ranters becomes their Liberty , from all which God preserve his People . Disaffect . LIII . W. R. pag. 92. The Submission spoken of , clearly centereth in a Submission to G. F. and the NAME of Monethly and Quarterly Meetings ; compared with his Postscript , part 1. viz. The blind Zealot , Principled to Eye the Brethren , instead of the Light in himself ; and his consideration , how fruitless all Mans outward Endeavours , under the Notion of Church-Government , hath been to preserve in a Real , True , Heavenly Society : It appears to us a meer Badge of Apostacy for any to have a depency on any such Means of Preservation , Part 1. pag. 43. Observe . I st , These are manifest Untruths relating to Submission ; for we are for that Submission which centureth in Christ , our Lord and Law-giver , and not in any man besides , though an Instrument in Christ's Hand , much less in the meer NAME of those said Meetings , nor do we exalt the Power of any Assemblies , as Assemblies of Men , one above another , further than the Power of God appears more Eminent in degree in one , than another , which W. R. has plainly granted , Part 3. pag. 78. So the Submission we owe , is to the Power of God. 2dly , We dare Challenge him to prove any zealous or other Person , so Principling any , or any Person so Principled among the People called Quakers , as to EYE THE BRETHREN , INSTEAD OF THE LIGHT IN THEMSELVES : Where can he find such Zealots among us ? What Gross and Scandalous Insinuations have we from him ! 3dly , Of all Man's outward Endeavours , &c. he should have distinguished between Man's Endeavours without Christ , and Man's Endeavours in and by Christ , who said , Without me ye can do nothing ; for Christ makes use of Instruments , good Men and Persons , to stir up others to Love and heavenly Union ; and good Mens Endeavours in him , and by his Assistance , have been , and are blessed , and not fruitless towards a real heavenly Union , Society and Order in Christ Jesus , to whom we owe the Submission in the Performance of such outward Directions and Order , as we see and feel him to be the Author of . Disaffect . LIV. W. R. pag. 93. The Argument used by the Serpent to tempt Eve , was this [ YE SHALL BE AS GODS ] EVEN SO we are perswaded , that there hath not been wanting unto him a Tempting Eve , which hath been too aspiring after such a State — 'T is to be DOUBTED , that this Aspiring Mind hath had so much place with him , as that he hath taken too much upon him . Pag. 94. We dare not say , that his preaching the Light in the Beginning of his Travel , as well as by others , his fellow Servants , was not the Ministration given them of God — 'T is certainly known , that MANY did on a suddain admire the Creature — as if not only the Planting and Watering were by him , but the Increase also — Pag. 95. And 't is too much to BE FEARED , that the Imprudent Acceptation of what was unduely offered ( viz. of more Respect than was meet ) hath begotten a Spirit of Pride and Exaltation in G. F. which the Lord is determined to bring into the Dust. Observe . 1st , [ 'T is to be doubted , &c. ] These Jealous Insinuations , Doubts , and pretended Fears , tend not only to render G. F. ( and those that have a tender Respect to him ) Obnoxious and Odious , but to expose them to the Fury of the Adversary , and so to Persecution ; however , such his Doubts and Jealousies are no Proofs . 2dly , [ That many did on a suddain admire the Creature , &c. 'T is much to be feared , that the Imprudent Acceptation , &c. ] We look on these to be Gross and Jealous Aspersions cast upon many , and to vilifie G. F. also , still tending to betray him , and many others , to the Jealous Censure and Fury of Persecuting Adversaries : But the Lord hath created a Defence upon the Glory of his Heritage . Disaffect LV. W. R. pag. 95. WE CANNOT be otherwise perswaded , but that he is fallen from the Truth , and that the words reported to be spoken by J. N. when he said ( in relation to his own fallen State ) I am but the Figure of another , are now fulfilled in him : Oh! that the Lord would Change his Heart , and bring him to a true sight and sorrow for his Sin , as he did J. N. after his fall ! and then , we hope , as he has been an Offence unto the Church of God , &c. Observe . We may presume , that he has abused J. N. in misapplying his Intention : However , these Jealousies still tend to expose G. F. to Persecution , and to the like Suffering and Reproach which J. N. under-went , by rendring him Guilty of the like fall , or rather worse ; and W. R. is so Tenatious in his ill Opinion , that he CANNOT be otherwise perswaded , as he saith ; so he assumes to himself to be an absolute Judge , an Unalterable , Infallible Judge , that will not be perswaded nor convinced , contrary to the Judgment he has taken up , and presented for himself and others , in the Plural Number , WE CANNOT be otherwise perswaded , &c. but who these WE are , besides himself , he signifies not , save only some pages before , i. e. pag. 87. we find William Ford's Name subscribed with William Rogers , who hath known better things in his time , than thus to be concerned with W. R. in his work of Strife and Enmity , in his old Age ; the Lord bring him to a sence from whence he is fallen . Disaffect . LVI . Part 2. Sect. 3. About Infallibility and Perfection . VV. R. pag. 13. Albeit we must acknowledge that the Church of Christ , which is built on the Rock Christ , cannot ( whilst abiding on the Rock ) be prevailed against ; yet no Argument from hence may rationally be brought to prove any one Member of this Church , whilst on this side the Grave , not liable through Temptation to Err and DEPART FROM the Rock , whilst there is an Enemy ready to enter all , if they watch not . Compared with part 3. pag. 34. The Apostle might well say , Be not unwise , but understanding what the Will of the Lord is ( He doth not say what the Will of the Church is , but what the Will of the Lord is ) submitting your selves one to another in the fear of God. Observe . 1st . [ Whilst abiding on the Rock &c. yet no Argument , &c. ] This implies a danger in the whole Church , and in every Member of Christ , of not abiding on the Rock , of not Watching , and of Erring , yea , and of DEPARTING also from the Rock ; but this is but the condition of a weak Faith , and of little Growth , short of being built , fixt and established in the Faith upon the Rock , which Christ's Promise in this case extends to , i. e. Upon this Rock will I build my Church , and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it ; and they that trust in the Name of the Lord , shall be as Mount Sion that shall never be removed . Obs. 2dly , [ The Apostle doth not say , what the will of the Church is , but what the Will of the Lord is . ] This Parenthesis is to oppose the will of the Church to the Will of the Lord , and so render Christ and his Church divided , but then he contradicts this Parenthesis in the very next Words , Submitting your selves one to another in the fear of God. Very well ; and was not this the Will of the Church , so to submit in the fear of God ? And could this be any other than in his Will ? Doth the Church in the fear of God Will any other submission than Christ wills in his Church ? No sure ; Christ does not will one thing , and his Church in him another contrary : But to qualifie or mend the matter , W. R. ( as one inwardly interrupted in his Attempts , but six Lines after in the same page ) saith , I say [ not the Church , but what the Will of the Lord is ] yet hereby I would not be understood to render Christ and his Church divided ; but rather to shew that his Will , who cannot Err , is a surer Foundation to build upon , than the Wills of those , who , if they depart from Christ their Rock , may Err. VVhich we 'l readily grant him ; but 't is nothing to purpose ; 't will not serve his turn for his opposing the Will of the Church ( as undivided from Christ ) to his Will , but only to signifie , that his meaning is , that the Will of the Lord , who cannot Err , is a surer Foundation to build upon , than the Wills of those who depart from Christ their Rock . But here he has varied from the Will of the Church , as undivided from Christ , to the wills of those , who ( if they depart from Christ ) may Err. How Impertinent to his purpose is this ! If they depart from Christ their Rock , they Unchurch themselves , and cease to be his Church . But then , how if they do not depart from Christ ? what then ? ( which is the Case we aim at , and he should have kept to , then they are his Church , and in his Will ; and what they will and command ( as in Unity with him ) is Christ's will and command , and if so , then W. R's Parenthesis before ( on the Text , Ephes. 5. 17 , 21. ) is wholly Impertinent and Improper ( and his Inference remote and forreign thereto ) yea , contradictory to his desiring not to be understood , to render Christ and his Church divided . Thus he sayes and unsayes ; he is off and on ; he marrs , and he mends ; he mends , and he marrs ; he darkens Counsel with his many VVindings , Twistings , and Tossings . Concessions to Truth , which confute much of W. R's Book . W. R. pag. 35. We do testifie , the Principle of Truth leads none to be Rude , either in Word or Action , nor yet to cross the Customs & Fashions of other Societies , which in themselves are Comely , Decent , and of good Report . Pag. 36. 'T is good for every one in all things to mind the Inward , Divine and Spiritual Teacher — and then doubtless such will be led to take up the Cross in denyal of Self , and not be active in any thing that may justly be termed Rude or Ignorant , but in those things that are Comely , Decent , and of good Report . Observe . This Concession overthrows much of his work against outward Methods , Rules , &c. and condemns his Rudeness in much of his Book . And if the Principle of Truth leads none to cross the Customs and Fashions of other Societies , which in themselves are COMELY , DECENT , and of Good Report , then not to cross nor oppose any Order , Form or Custom of our Society , which in it self is Comely , Decent , and of good Report ; and dare he affirm , that there are no such Customs among us ( in our Societies and Meetings ) as in themselves are Comely , Decent , and of good Report ? or has he more Charity for the Customs and Fashions of other Societies than for ours , which he has for so many Years owned and been in ? W. R. pag. 77. That ▪ J. VV. and J. S. gave forth a Paper at Drawell — That he still owns , with that Interpretation he and J. VV. give ; which if it will not bear , then let them be judged , &c. Qu. Is not W. R. Partial in his History , in not citing and publishing that Paper , as he has others ? and yet still advocating for and highly applauding the Men , as Ancient and Honourable Friends , not exceeded in Godliness by any Mortal Man , &c. VVe ask if that Paper implies not something that was blamable on their parts , but that they were wholly Innocent ? Touching that Paper accounted the Foundation of the seperate Meeting in the North ( as W. R. saith ) he appears Partial also , in not citing it fully , but leaving out what chiefly concerns Order and Discipline , yea , something of a form of Church-Government then owned by them , where they mention their Chosen men , to whom they gave Power , their RECORDS , their ORDERS , Matters of their Concern , &c. And now , John Story and John Wilkinson , seeing William Rogers hath so much advocated and pleaded in your defence , and so bitterly exclaimed against many others , who ( as we believe ) are faithful Servants of Christ ; And seeing he hath made the Paper subscribed by Sixty six Friends one great occasion of his Printing , and made a huge Out-cry against it , and them that signed it , as no better than Apostates , and have run in the very Way of Cain , &c. Part 2. pag. 91 , 92. and Part 1. pag. 45. And that the Form they take , is worse then the Forms of divers Apostate Christians , which appear very uncharitable Judgments , and a severe Excommunication . We would seriously ask you these few Questions , viz. 1st , If you own W. R. his Printing , and what he has Printed on that subject ? 2dly , If you own his Reviling so many Friends and Brethren in Print , as he has done , several by Name , and others not by Name ? 3dly , Had he no Counsel , Advice or Encouragement from you , or either of you to Print his Book ? 4thly , Seeing he makes the said Paper of Sixty six so much the subject of his Complaint and Contest , as also takes occasion at that from Drawell , and an Epistle written by a publick Preacher , ( as he saith ) Postscript , pag. 26. Had he not done more fairly to have Printed all those Papers , without diminishing ( together with his Reformed Narrative in commendation of the Meeting at Drawell ) than to Print but pieces and small parcells of them , that so the occasions pretended of his Complaints might more clearly have appeared ? 5thly , Do you really believe or own W. R. to be a Person so Conscientious in his Writing and Printing , and so to have the Evidence of the Spirit of God for his proceeding therein , as he himself pretends ? 6thly , Do you really believe W. R. a Person meetly accomplished and qualified to maintain the Contest on your behalf , in Writing , and in Print , both as to History and Doctrine , as he hath endeavoured ? 7thly , If you do not put a stop to his Proceeding , Reviling and Abusive Work against Friends and Antient Brethren , nor shew any publick Dislike against his Book already Printed , so much on your behalf , as Persons chiefly concerned and vindicated therein , whether this will not give just occasion to suspect , or rather conclude , That he is secretly abetted and countenanced therein by you ? 8thly , IS HE DEPUTED BY YOU ? HAVE YOU IN TRUSTED YOUR CAUSE WITH HIM , to Mannage , as he doth ? or doth he make himself Officious , as one seeking Popularity therein ? 9thly , His Book being thus signed , viz. By WILLIAM ROGERS , on behalf of himself , and other Friends in Truth concerned ; Do not you count your selves some of those other Friends concerned , on whose behalf he hath so subscribed ? or hath he therein presumed for you , without your order , he having greatly concerned you in his Book ? 10thly , If you do not shew some publick Dislike to his Printed Book ( being so much in your Defence ) nor give us any Plain or Satisfactory Answer to these Questions , then whether your Silence and Connivance in the Case , doth not give occasion for his Book , in some Sence , to be reputed or esteemed your Book , though not immediately yours , but as made and promulgated by an Advocate and Agent for you ? Pray let 's have your plain and ingenious Answer to these Questions , either in Writing or in Print , if in your Hearts and Consciences you find freedom thereunto , to free and acquit your selves therein ; for we are willing at present , rather to induce you to a tender Consideration of the dangerous Tendency of W. R's proceedure , than to lay the Charge thereof immediately upon you , desiring rather you might find out a way to quit your selves of his fruitless Contention . These things are recommended to your Consideration with the Light of Truth . It may not be amiss to note what Comparison W. R. makes between G. F. and J. W. on the Character he gives of each ; the Character W. R. gives J. W. as not deferving to be termed of an High and Lofty Spirit ; is concerning the value of his Estate , his Exercises in Bodily Labour , sometimes at Plough , &c. his having no more Land than at first ; his Travels often alone , but at all times without any Attendant as his proper Servant ; his being content with the meanest of Meats and Drinks , &c. Part 4. pag. 63 , 64. To all which we say , though we grant all these commendable in their places , and do not understand that he was charged in these things with a High or Lofty Spirit ; yet we must tell W. R. he pleads but Impertinently , as well as Pharisaically , in these Instances for J. W. unless it be a certain Proof that every man is of a Lowly Humble Spirit , that has but an Estate of 15 l. or 20 l. per annum , and sometimes goes to Plough , and other Bodily Exercise , &c. ( according as he pleads for J. W. ) and can , according to his Education , be contented with indifferent mean Dyet . On the other hand W. R. shews his Spight and Contempt against G. F. to prove him a man of a High and Lofty Spirit , Reflecting on his Honest Trade of a Poor Shoemaker , and of mean * Parentage ( as his slight Language is ) Reflecting also on his Poor Relations , implying , that of late Years , their Outward Man wanted some Refreshment and Comfort with necessary Food , Rayment , &c. as in Part 5. pag. 49. By all which he endeavours to make G. F. as contemptible as he can ; but we never heard such an Account before of those Relations ; this appears meer Malice : And what cause have any to believe him in it ? We may wonder when-ever any of those Relations did complain to W. R. of their Indigency or Poverty ! He also Reflects upon G. F. his Marriage , and his Travelling with a Man , and his Enjoyment of things Lawful in the Creation , and necessary for the Ease of the Body , and Pleasure of the Pallet [ Thus our Persecutors have falsly upbraided us when we lay in Cold Prisons ] teling of his † often freely making use of those things when to be had — so far ( saith he ) as we can understand , &c. We cannot but take notice how Scurrilously and Basely this man treats G. F. and what Beggarly , Sordid Stuff he is willing to make use of , to cast an Odium and Contempt upon him . He addeth this Character of J. W. viz. He takes not upon him to give forth an Outward Directory for the Children of Light to walk by . Is not this a manifest Untruth ? Was there no Outward Directory in that Paper which J. W. and J. S. with above Eighty Persons more , signed ? wherein they made their Propositions , Terms and Directions , pretended , for a Reuniting , which these are some of , viz. That they who are not chosen by the Churches , do cease meddling about the Churches concerns ; and that all cease meddling for time to come , ( in your Work ) who are not concerned , and only keep unto their own , whether it be of God given unto them , or of outward things concerning Mankind to offer them , and SO DEPART . Now observe , doth not thus much of the said Paper , and these Conditions of it , evince , that it contains a kind of Directory and limitted Prescriptions ? and if not for the Children of Light to walk by , then what Children was it made for , and that observed it , until the Separation became more apparent ? But touching G. F. how Silily and Impertinently doth W. R. argue , to prove him of a High and Lofty Spirit ? though G. F. saith , He esteems W. R's Reproaches great Riches : and we do not believe , that he is or will be ( or has any cause to be ) asham'd either of his Trade or Parentage ; but rather Magnifies the Power and Wisdom of God , according to his antient Testimony , in raising up poor honest Trades-men to be Ministers of the Gospel , Fishers of men , &c. Again , we do not understand , that G. F ' s desiring J. S. and J. W. to come to him at his House ( in order to end Differences ) doth prove him a man of a high and lofty Spirit ; for G. F. was then in Bodily Weakness , unfit to come to them , and his end was for Peace ( as we understand ) which no wayes tends to prove the Charge against him . VVe must needs say , we are very unwilling to detract from , lessen , or ( in the least ) to contemn W. R. his Parts , Education or Parentage , of what Degree or Reputation soever ; for his Parts , we doubt not , but he has both Natural and Aquired , but they seem to us to be greatly , clouded and perverted by that Lofty , Proud Contemning and Tempestuous Spirit that has entred him , and puft him up , so much in Disdain against others : You that are his Friends and Relations , pray Counsel him to lay aside his Spiritual Pride and Contempt ; for it is hateful to all Lowly-minded and Serious Souls , who are truly Conscientious towards God. William Rogers against William Rogers , and William Rogers against John Wilkinson and John Story , in the most Material Passages of his Book ; being but some of his Contradictions , with Questions , Notes and Remarks upon them . PReface , p. 2 , 3. So Great a CONCERN OF CONSCIENCE lies on many to encourage the Publication hereof , as that we can no longer forbear , lest it should be reputed , THAT THE DOCTRINE AND LIFE OF CHRISTIANITY WERE WHOLLY EXTINCT AMONG THE AFORESAID PEOPLE . PArt 4. pag. 77. John Wilkinson to G. F. viz. Of late dayes the concord we once had , seems much to be broken , and many Instruments whom God wrought by , of late time have greatly jarr'd ; and the cause , God hath manifested to me , that it is NOT in Principles of Truth , nor in Christs Doctrine , nor in any Practice which Truth , in the Members of the heavenly Body leadeth into , but about Prescriptions from thee , through the bl●nd zeal of the WEAK , to promote thy Orders . Qu. What danger can there be of any such Repute ? or what cause for any to think so of the People call'd Quakers , as that the Doctrine and Life of Christianity were wholly extinct ? if the Cause of the Difference or Jarr does not lie in ther Pinciples of Truth , nor in Christ's Doctrine , nor in any Practice which Truth leadeth into ? as J. W. contrary to W. R. hath plainly confessed , God hath shown him . As also W. R. in Contradiction to himself confesseth , That a great part of the Contention of one Party with another , seems to be but about the SHELL , and NOT the KERNEL ; his meaning is , about outward Forms and Methods relating to Marriages , Relief of the Poor , &c. Preface , pag. 23. Where 's then the Apostacy charged , as to Doctrine , Life of Christianity , Principles of Truth , & c ? for these are not the Shell ; Has not W. R. been greatly Instrumental to make the Breach wider , and to encrease the differences ? which he confesseth , to have been small Differences , that at first seemed to be but as LITTLE SPARKS , Pref. pag. 2. But in his Marginal Note saith , The Divisions among the People called Quakers have been at least Eight Years encreasing to the heighth they now are at : Whereas 't is well known , the Division was much allayed , until he and some private Abettors did blow up those little Sparks , the Flame whereof is now the more apparent by his PROMULGATION in PRINT . Preface , pag. 22. It seemed unlikely to bring forth a Credible History touching Religious differences , without nameing the Authors of Books , Papers , and Names of Persons reflected on , evidencing the Reallity of such PRINCIPLES , DOCTRINES & PRACTICES which occasioned Dis-union and Seperation amongst some of the aforesaid People . Part 4. p. 100. 'T is too evident that the great Difference amongst Friends is about outward things and Ceremonies , wherein some appear like People contending about the Shell , and lose the Kernal , which occasions me to tell thee , that when I have heard thee Preach against Austin the Monk's bringing into England a Snapsack of Ceremonies , I then little thought , &c. John Wilkinson in his Letter to G. F. Part 4. pag. 77. viz. Of late days the concord seems much to be broken — & the cause God hath manifested to me , that it is Not in Principles of Truth , Nor in Christ's Doctrine , Nor in any Practice , which Truth in the Members of the Heavenly Body leadeth into , &c. Query , Is it not still more plain how contradictory W. R. is to himself , and to J. W. in this matter ? One while he places the occasion of the Dis-union and Seperation upon Principles , Doctrines and Practices ; another while , upon outward Things and Ceremonies , the Shell , &c. And John Wilkinson , That the Cause God hath manifested to him , that it is not in Principles of Truth , nor in Christ's Doctrine , nor in any Practice which Truth leadeth into . Now if W. R. sayes , that those Principles , Doctrine and Practices which occasioned Dis-union and Seperation were not of Christ , nor true , then he must suppose them contrary to the Principles of Truth , and Christ's Doctrine , which still contradicts J. Wilkinsons affirming , That the cause of the breach of Concord and Jar among the Instruments whom God hath wrought by , is ●ot in Principles of Truth nor Christ's Doctrine . If there be not so much as Jaring in Principles of Truth , nor in Christ's Doctrine , how does W. R. place the Dis-union upon Principles , Doctrines and Practices ? And then in Contradiction to that sayes , the great Difference is about outward Ceremonies , the Shell , &c. Behold how this Person like a Wave is tossed ! Oh that he would return to the sure Foundation ! Part 1. pag. 24 , 25. Other Churches had outward Marks and Tokens whereby a man might manifest himself to be a Member of their Church , when received , &c. — So we ( who had the Evidence in our selves — ) were at a loss Infallibly to manifest unto others , by any outward Marks & Tokens , that we were in reality Members of the true Church , because this Light did reveal unto us , That those who were but in the Gentile Nature , and had come no further than the outward Court , might have all the outward Marks and Signs of a Member of their Churches . Pag. 19. That such a one is a dark separate Spirit — which cannot be evidenced either by Doctrine or Conversation , as if the Tree were not now to be known by its Fruits , as in days past . — Had they not entertained unrighteous Jealousie , we are perswaded they would not have testified against such as have approved themselves unto us , no other than faithful Ministers of Christ , sound in Doctrine , and as blameless In Conversation , as any Friends [ Compared with part 5. p. 91. ] That Rule which God Almighty , as by a finger from Heaven , hath laid down , viz. BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHAL KNOW THEM . Qu. Whether then sound Doctrine and blameless Conversations , be not such Fruits , Marks and Tokens , whereby Persons may be known to be good Trees , Members and Followers of Christ Jesus ? But W. R's Contradiction appears both wayes , as in what follows also , partly relating to the Contradictions before . Preface , p. 10. Insisting on Judging by Outward Fruits , viz. If living well , and holding forth nothing but sound Doctrine , shall not be brought to the Measuring Line of Christ , what Defence can there be aganst a Slanderous tongue ? Part 3. pag. 83. I therefore do reasonably conclude , that the Infallible Mark whereby any Member of the Body is known to be in true Unity with the Body , doth NOT consist in Profession and Belief of certain Principles and Doctrines , and Practices DEPENDING THEREON ( which comprehends both well living & holding forth nothing but sound Doctrine ) BUT in the Circumcision of the Heart , and an answer of a good Conscience towards God ; & p. 84. The most Infallible Mark and Token then of a Member in the true Unity of the Body of Christ , is an inward Invisible Mark that cannot be stampt on any , but by the Impression of Gods Power on the Heart . Qu. Are not his Contradictions various and manifold ? One while , no outward Marks and Tokens do Infallibly manifest the Members of the true Church ; Another while , Living well , and holding forth nothing but sound Doctrine , shall be brought to the measuring Line of Christ , i. e. ye shall know them by their Fruits ; another while , the infallible Mark to know a Member of the Body in true Unity , is an invisible Mark , Stampt on the Heart , by the Impression of God's Power ; 't is the inward Circumcision of the Heart , and answer of a good Conscience ; it doth not consist in Profession and Belief of certain Principles and Doctrines ; no , nor in any outward Marks and Practices THEREON DEPENDING , especially if by no outward Marks or Tokens Christ's Members be to be known : One while , the Infallible Mark is Outward ; another while , 't is Inward : Again , 't is Outward , in sound Doctrine and Practices ; Again , 't is NOT Outward , but Inward : One while , 't is Visible ; Another while , 't is Invisible . Whereas there are really good Fruits , both Inward and Outward , Visible and Invisible proceeding from the true and holy Root of Life , all manifest in the Light ; for be sure , bad Fruits come from a bad Root and Spirit . But to take the matter in W. R. his last sence , viz. The most Infallible Mark and Token of a Member in the true Unity , is an Invisible Mark : And this grants an inward and Invisible Evidence from the Spirit of Christ , and so a certain Sence and Judgment of Members in the true Unity , and Members out of it , beyond all outward Evidence , Marks or Tokens ; and this Inward Sence and Judgment extends even to Mens Spirits , certainly to discover whether they are right or wrong , in true Unity , or not in it . And yet in giving any publick Judgment upon Persons , as being in a Wrong Dividing Spirit , there ought to be outward apparent Evidence ; Mark them which cause Divisions and Offences , contrary to the Gospel , and avoid them : Those Divisions and Offences are somewhere evident , though they be not Drunkards , nor openly Gross or Scandalous in Conversation , yet if they cause Division , Schisms and Rent : in the Church ; this may be easily evidenced , and is to be condemned ; and we know of none judged among us on this account , without some real Evidence of matter of Fact of this kind ; if any are , we allow it not . Part 1. pag. 7. Some Persons Uncertain in Number and Qualifications do take upon them to call themselves a General Meeting . Pag. 16. Mens Meetings have MOST usually CONSISTED of Men Uncertain , as to Qualifications , &c. may assume a Power over Consciences , under the Notion of the Church of Christ. Pag. 12. We dare not conclude , that none in those Meetings were Members of the Church . Part 3. pag. 39. Where two or three are gathered together in Christ's Name , there is the Church of Christ. Note , If some of those Meetings be Members of the Church , or gathered in Christs Name , and so his Church ; then such are certainly Qualified ; they CONSIST not of men uncertain . Part 1. p. 11. That one Man G. F. advising friends to hold such Meetings Monethly and Quarterly — But for our parts , we understood not , at that Day , that it was DESIGNED by him , or any else , that those Meetings should not only be accounted the CHURCH , but also such as professed the Truth ought to believe * as his Church believes ; had he so exprest himself , Testimonies would have arisen as a Flood against such Darkness . Part 4. pag. 37. J. W. and J. S. do testifie thus , viz. On the whole matter , in the Fear and Presence of the Almighty God , we declare , That as we do APPROVE of Monethly and Quarterly Meetings , for the necessary service of the truth , so we further say , that as these , or any other Meetings of Friends in Truth , shall be continued to answer these Services , we believe , that as it now is , it also will become our : Duty to be at UNITY with our Brethren , in the Services thereof . Part 3. pag. 74. * I confess , the true Church is in the true Faith ; and every Member thereof is in some measure , at least , of the same faith that all the Elect of God are of : So that it may in truth be said , every Member of the Church doth in some measure believe as the rest of the Members do . Note , Qu. 1st , Wherein have those Meetings declined the Service of Truth ? 2dly , Then why not to be accounted the Church , if two or three gathered in Christ's Name be the Church ? 3dly , How comes W. R. to UNCHURCH them , and yet they approved by his Friends ? 4thly , How can every Member be in the same Faith , if they believe not as the same Church doth ? Part 1. p. 12. 'T is now our concern to declare , that whosoever hath or shall testifie , that all those Meetings , as usually held ( viz. Monethly and Quarterly ) were the Church of Christ , hath and will appear to be such , as know not whereof they affirm . Part 3. pag. 78. The word [ Church ] is mostly used in Scriptures with respect to perticular Congregations or Assemblies . Pag. 79. Where two or three are gathered together in Christs Name , there is the Church of Christ , Mat. 18. 19 , 20. Qu. Whether W. R. can prove , that any of those Monethly or Quarterly Meetings among Friends , are not gathered together in the Name of Christ ? Part 1. p. 14. This Doctrine frequently of late publisht among us , [ That the Apostacy shall never enter the generality more ] doth give us just occasion to be Jealous , &c. Part 3. pag. 78. I would NOT be understood to say , that the Church of Christ is not Invested with Power from on high , or that the Apostacy shall enter the Generality again . Qu. Then why does he so often Quarrel with the Doctrine frequently published , as he saith , viz. That the Apostacy shall never enter the Generality more ? Part 1. pag. 47. On Mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. and 1 Cor. 6. 1 , 2 , 4. WE REASONABLY CONCLUDE , that the words of Christ and the Apostle ONLY hinted at either Personal Offences or Differences touching WORLDLY Matters , and that THEREIN the Duty of the Church was only to exhort to submit to their Connsel , which if they did not , they might justly be esteemed as Heathen men . Part 3. pag. 36. On Mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. Some may object thus , This relates not to outward Affairs , but to Offences that are of a SPIRITUAL Nature . In answer , it may be said , As to that , the Scripture is wholly silent , and therefore EVERY CASE wherein one Brother may Trespass against another , may in RIHGHT REASON be comprehended in it . Qu. Whether EVERY CASE be to be limitted only to WORLDLY MATTERS , and not extend to any Cases or Offences of a Spiritual Nature ? Part 3. pag. 64. NOT the least Tittle to countenance this Sentence , that the positive Sentence or Decision of the Church , in matters of Conscience , may be obligatory on Believers ; NAY , in that very Case , Mat. 18. 15 , 16. If he refuse to hear the Church , let him be unto THEE as an Heathen man. The Scripture doth not say , that Sentence ought to be obligatory on all other Members of the Church of Christ , to look upon him as an Heathen Man ; but it saith , Let him be unto THEE as an Heathen Man. Part 1. pag. 47. The duty of the Church was to exhort to submit to their Counsel , which if they did not , they might JUSTLY be esteemed as Heathen Men. And Part 3. pag. 36. If he neglect to hear the Church , let him be unto thee as an Heathen Man , when a Brother is through the DECLARATION of the Church become so to the other Brother , &c. EVERY CASE wherein one Brother may Trespass against another , may , according to Right Reason , be comprehended in it . Qu. Why then not a Heathen Man to the rest of the Church , if they may justly be esteemed as Heathen Men , that would not submit to the Churches Counsel ? seeing 't is confessed by W. R. to his own Confutation , Part 1. pag. 52. That they who refuse to take the Churches wholsom Counsel ( or Admonition ) the Church may then declare such unworthy of their Society : And is not this then obligatory on other Believers and Members ? Part 3. pag. 82. on Gal. 5. 2. & 4. 9 , 10 , 11. This did not at that time condemn that CHRISTIAN LIBERTY and Forbearance , which the Apostle before approved , IN and with respect unto such as made Conscience of CIRCUMCISION : And pag. 83. There were such as practised Circumcision — yet a CHRISTIAN LIBERTY was so exercised , as that — we find not these differing Exercises IN A CHRISTIAN LIBERTY did subject any of those Believers , exercised therein , to the Censure of being out of the Unity of the Body . Part 5. p. 74 , 75. NEITHER DID THEY ( i. e. the Apostles ) ENDEAVOUR to oblige those who practised Circumcision ( after they believed ) to forbear the same , before by the Spirit they were led from it — Pag. 75. on Gal. 5. 2. & 4. 9 , 10 , 11. This did not at that time condemn that CHRISTIAN LIBERTY in such as made Conscience of Circumcision . Part 1. pag. 73. The labour of the Apostles of Christ in the primitive Dayes , was to DRAW the outward Jew FROM OFF the Observations of these Ordinances , which were really established by the appointment of God himself , having exalted instead thereof the WORD nigh in the Heart , and Law written therein , as a fulfilling of that which ( according to the Word of the Lord by the Mouth of his Prophet ) was to come to pass under the NEW COVENANT , which was not like unto the OLD . And Part 3. pag. 82. and Part 5. pag. 75. on Gal. 5. 2. I Paul say unto you , If ye be CIRCUMCISED , Christ shall profit you nothing . a Qu. How can it be good Doctrine to account Circumcision a CHRISTIAN LIBERTY , and an Exercise not Condemnable in Believers , when the labour of the Apostles was , To DRAW the outward Jew from off the Observation of these Ordinances ? Part 1. pag. 73. We appeal unto every understanding ingenious Reader , whether it can consist with the tenure of the new Covenant , for any to attempt the establishment or giving forth of outward Orders , Prescriptions , Sentences or Decrees to be a bond upon the Consciences of them who have believed in the everlasting Light. [ Part 3. Title page . ] The inward Government of Christ not represented by Persons visible , by carnal Eyes , invested with Power from him to Execute outward Laws , Prescriptions , Orders , Edicts or Decrees in an outward Form of Government visible . Part 3. pag. 23 , 24. NOT that I would be understood that it is not necessary to be in the Exercise of OUTWARD ORDER , with respect to that Gospel-Discipline , which becomes the Church of Christ. — The Principle of Truth in these latter dayes hath , and may FURTHER LEAD into the Practice of OUTWARD ORDER in DISCIPLINE , with relation to the Church of Christ. Qu. Is not this a very fair Confession ? What would this man be at ? does he know ? Has he not here very plainly granted the thing we plead for , viz. Outward Order and Gospel-Discipline in the Church ? What 's now become of W. R's contest against outward Order , Discipline , and Form of Church-Government , visible , & c ? Part 3. pag. 34. The Apostle might well say , Be ye not unwise , but understand what the Will of the Lord is , ( He doth NOT say , what the will of the Church is , but what the Will of the Lord is ) submitting your selves one to another in the fear of God. Part 3. pag. 34. Though I say , as aforesaid , [ not the Church , but what the Will of the Lord is . ] Yet hereby I would not be understood to render Christ and his Church DIVIDED . Qu. If Christ and his Church be not divided ? How does he oppose the will of the Church to the Will of the Lord ? His telling us of the Wills of those who depart from Christ , this is not the will of the Church , in Unity with him ; therefore his dividing the Church and Christ in Will , stands not with that Unity , Part 1. pag. 75. Outward Conformity to outward Rules and Orders relating to the Conscience — establisht amongst the People called Quakers — We have no ground either from the Word of God , by the Mouths of his Prophets , or from the Appearance of Christ by his Light in us , or from the Scriptures of Truth — since the Appearance of Christ in the Flesh , to expect that any should be invested with Power from on High , to establish such things relating to the Conscience , muchless to expect that the Children of Light ( under the New Covenant ) should be led by the eternal Spirit , and Word nigh in the Heart unto such a Conformity . Part 3. pag. 82 , 83. 'T is a blessed thing for Brethren to dwell together in Love and Unity — this ought to consist in the Truth — I doubt not but there are many , who are ready to conclude , that an universal UNITY ought to be established in the Church , by the assistance of OUTWARD INSTRUMENTS , that as we are Members of one Body , so we may not only be ONE in Faith , ONE in Doctrine , but also ONE in Practice , with relation to Discipline , Order , & OUTWARD FORMS of Government . My Soul should rejoyce to see that day wherein we might all be SO led by the appearance of Christs Spirit in us , under his Government , which ought to be exalted over all , as that THIS ONENESS might thereby be witnessed amongst all the Families of God's People at this day . Qu. 1. Is it not evident , that one while , he declares , that he and they have no ground to expect That Oneness , which another while , he should rejoyce to see the day , we might all be led by Christ , to witness it , viz. Oneness in Faith , Oneness in Doctrine , Oneness in Practice , Discipline , Order and outward Forms of Government ? Qu. 2. How should that universal Unity be established by the assistance of outward Instruments , or that Oneness in Faith , Doctrine , Practice , Discipline , Order and Forms of Government be witnessed by the leading of Christ's Spirit , if we have no true Ground at all , to expect that any should be invested with Power from on high , to be Instrumental therein , nor yet , that the Children of the Light should be led into any such Conformity by the eternal Spirit ? Strange Confusion ! Part 2. pag. 27. Obj. How comes it to pass , that divers among you called Quakers , &c. — teling us , that the Tree of Knowledge was NOT good for Food ? W. R's Answ. 'T is very true ; however , that doth not prove , that all such Expressions are according to Truth , &c. Pag. 28. As to the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil , though the Scriptures do not positively declare , whether it was good for Food or no — a Father may command his Child not to eat an Apple — his rebellious Eating would be no Argument , that the Apple in it self is not good for Food . P. 29. We know not on what foot of Truth any one can assert , that the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food , as in it self . Part 2. page 29. I would NOT be understood to reflect on ALL that have used that Expression , viz. THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE IS NOT GOOD FOR FOOD , because I question not , but many have so expressed themselves — to shew forth , that if we should feed upon or admire any excellent Qualification or Endowment whatsoever , & not have the Eye of our Mind chiefly unto the Giver , we might then come to a loss , even as Adam did . Qu. 1. If he counts the Doctrine Erronious , or not of the Truth to say , that the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food , does not this reflect on all that have used that Expression ? Qu. 2. And is it not Erroneous and Ignorance in W. R. not only to esteem the Tree of Knowledge , an Excellent Qualification or Endowment , but to compare it to THAT which is a DISCOVERER of Good and Evil , and to the Knowledge of the only true God , and Jesus Christ , which is Life eternal ? quoting John 17. 3. pag. 28. And in Commendation of the Tree of Knowledge , ( to prove it good for Food ) to add , that 'T is EVIDENT that Knowledge is the Way to Life ? Qu. 3. Did God forbid the Knowledge of himself ? the Knowledge which is Life Eternal ? that Knowledge which is the Way to Life , to Man , in that state of Innocency in the beginning ? Let this be considered . Qu. 4. Can it be good Doctrine to say , that the Serpent perswaded Eve to that Knowledge which is the Way to Life ? or to the Knowledge of the true God , and Jesus Christ , which is Life Eternal ? Could THAT be the Knowledge that God forbad Man to eat of ? Were not this very Absurd , to render the Serpent more kind to Man than his Maker was ? W. R. Part 2. pag. 43. We are so far from condemning all those who pay THEM ( that is , Tythes ) and not as by constraint , that we look upon it to be the DUTY of ALL professing Christianity , to contribute , &c. — And if the Charity of any should be such , as to bestow upon them ( i. e. their Ministers ) one FIFTH part instead of a TENTH , far be it from us to coudemn it . Part 4. p. 39. J. W. and J. S. in their Testimony , viz. As to TYTHES we can in Truth say , 'T was never so much as in our Hearts to speak any words whatsoever , with the least intent to strengthen any in the Payment thereof , nor yet to weaken the Faith of any ; having a Testimony in our Hearts , that TYTHES , as at this day paid , are ANTICHRISTIAN . And Part 4. pag. 9. in J. W's Answer , viz. I brought in a Testimony AGAINST TYTHES — NO such word spoken by me , as to put an Indifferency concerning Testimonies for God , against the GRAND OPPRESSION of TYTHES — the word of Life to stir them up with Testimonies against the GRAND OPPRESSION of TYTHES . Observe , Qu. VVhether the Liberty W. R. has here granted for the free Payment of Tythes , be not an Innovation , tending to beget into a Looseness and Apostacy from our Antient Christian Testimony against Tythes ? And whether it be not Contradictory to J. W. and J. S. their Testimony , cited by himself against TYTHES ? Part 1. pag. 48. W. R. excepts against R. B's affirming , That the Church of Christ hath power in some cases that are matters of Conscience , to give positive Sentence or Decision which may be obligatory upon Believers , and that their giving a positive Sentence in such cases , will not import tyranny , neither will the pretences of any Contradicting them , or refusing to submit on the account THEY SEE IT NOT , excuse them of being GUILTY of disobeying God. W. R. objects , viz. Clearly shews to us his meaning to be , that in SOME CASES the Consciences of Believers ought to be bound by the positive Sentence of others — THIS Meaning and Government we take to be contrary to the Principle of Truth and Liberty we have in Christ Jesus . Part 1. pag. 43. Whereas it s jealoused , some are run into Looseness , and say , The Light in my Conscience condemns me not , and therefore 't is the Care of FAITHFUL BRETHREN to appear AS WATCH - MEN OVER THE FLOCK : WE SAY SO TOO . And those who approve themselves WATCHMEN , will endeavour to Convince such , who in very deed run into Looseness , &c. that though they may pretend the LIGHT CONDEMNS THEM NOT , yet that their Deeds are evil , and that the Light doth condemn the same , though they may BE HARDNED AND SEE IT NOT , & so endeavour to awaken the Conscience , that God's Witness may be heard . Part 1. pag. 47. The duty of the Church was to exhort , TO SUBMIT TO THEIR COUNSEL , which if they did not , they might JUSTLY be esteemed AS HEATHEN MEN. And pag. 52. If they refuse to take their WHOLSOME COUNSEL , THE CHURCH may then declare such UNWORTHY of their Societies . Part 3. pag. 36. EVERY CASE ( i. e. outward or Spiritual ) may in RIGHT REASON be Comprehended in it ( viz. ) in the Case mentioned by Christ in Mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. Query , For what End then is the Church of Christ to admonish or counsel , and the faithful Brethren to watch and take care over the Flock , if their Sentence or Judgment be not binding to them in any case of Conscience ? Whether it relate to Spiritual or Temporal matters ? And why should God make use of Instruments to build Believers up in the most holy Faith , ( as he confesseth , part 2. pag. 65. ) if the Exhortations , Reproofs and Instructions ( which he also grants ) be not binding on those other Believers ? For is not the most holy Faith a Spiritual matter , and relating to Conscience ? As also Part 3. pag. 33. he confesseth , That those who are invested with Power from on high , may be Instruments in God's hand , according to the Dispensation thereof given them of God , to stir up the pure mind in others , sometimes by way of ADMONITION , EXHORTATION and SOUND DOCTRINE , and sometimes by CHARGE or COMMAND , according as the Spirit of the Lord MOVES and OPPERATES . A plain Confession to Truth : Now he speaks like some Embassadour of Christ , but keeps not to this ; he is inconsistent ; we would ask him , if such Admonition , Charge and Command by such Instruments in God's hand , be not binding on others to whom they are directed , and if they be not obliging to their Consciences , and if the Light in their Consciences doth not the more enforce them , and make them binding ? VVhere is then the Imposition ? And hath the Church of Christ no Power to give forth any Commands or Precepts that are binding to Conscience ? All just Ones are binding ; But has not W. R. in his fifth part , pag. 91 , 92. denounced a Sentence of Excommunication against G. F. as one that hath cut him-himself off from being a Member of the Body of Christ , by departing from the Rock Christ , and as one that for sometime past hath stood in a state of Separation ? Is not this a Sentence of Excommunication , seeing he ( on this occasion ) saith , It is not in the Power of any Mortal man , or Assembly , to Excommunicate from amongst the true Members of Christ's Body , a Servant of the Living God. Can W. R. expect this his Sentence of Excommunication to be binding on true Believers Consciences , when he has so much opposed the Power of the Church of Christ to give forth Sentences and Judgments to be binding to the Consciences of Believers ? Has not he here assumed a Power and Jurisdiction above the Church of Christ ? And is not this Pope-like , or Antichrist-like ? Doubtless he would have all Friends in Truth believe and receive his positive Sentence , or else he would not have taken so much pains as he has done , in Reviling , setting at Naught , Judging and Condemning many others , far more Righteous and Innocent then himself ; for which , and the Reproach he has brought upon Truth , we are perswaded the Judgments of God hang over his Head , and the Hand of the Lord is against that cruel , jealous Spirit in him , and God's Truth and Power hath Excluded and Excommunicated all his uncharitable Judgments , usurped and unjust Excommunications , his gross Abuses against the Innocent , and Perversions of Truth , and foul Aspersions , together with his Fallacies and Self-contradictions are numerous and manifold ; We wish the Lord in Mercy may yet incline his Heart to seek Repentance before he dye , that he may not end his dayes in Horror and Anguish . A Catalogue of some of WILLIAM ROGERS his manifest FALSHOODS , Notorious SLANDERS , Scandalous ABUSES , PERVERSIONS , RAILING , SCOFFING , FLATTERING and REVILING , in the 4th and 5th Parts of his Book and Preface , against George Fox and others , in W. R's own words and terms [ with Interlineary Notes upon them . ] I. THat of THOSE who in derision have been called QUAKERS , by whom the Principle of Truth hath been held forth and owned , it may be now said , — the Enemy hath so prevailed , as that the Seeds of Discention and Discord sown amongst them , have taken so deep Root , as that THEIR PUBLICK Meetings for Worship in several parts of this Nation have been the Stages of Contention . [ These we take to be Infamous and Scandalous , too general to be true against the said People and their Meetings . ] II. Page 4. That they are Persecuting Opposers , who oppose J. W. and J. S. [ VVould W. R. be counted a Persecutor for his opposing others more vehemently ? ] III. Page 5. That Imagination hath so possessed the Hearts of MANY that travel under the notion of Ministring Friends , as that instead of manifesting a divine Understanding , or speaking the Word of Truth , they have brought forth the Fruits of an unsound Mind , shewing forth no better Resemblances , than the confused Chaos before the Creation , &c. [ A gross Scandalon many Ministring Friends . ] IV. Pag. ibid. That either the multitude of Iniquity , or great Hatred , through the Influence of G. F. possessing the Hearts of such , is the occasion thereof , ( viz. of their shewing no better Resemblance ) [ A great Scandal still . ] V P. ibid. Of the present Seperation in some parts , &c. that G. F. hath been one of those very Persons , occasioning the Differences to arise unto the heighth they now are . And pag. 6. One chief Instrument that a destroying and devouring Spirit hath entred into some among the Flock , and that many a simple Honest-hearted Friend to Truth and Righteousness , have received and believed Lyes , and slanderous false Reports against many Brethren , &c. Pag. 6. And that the Blood of many such , if they Perish , before true Repentance , will be laid at G. F's Door . [ Gross and Abusive Charges against G. F. and many Honest-hearted Friends . ] VI. Pag 15 , 16. That in G. F's second Query to J. VV. seems to be implyed ( if from a Query any thing may properly be implyed ) then it must be asserted , that there is either one or more , that have Power to impose in the Will of Man , that which the Scripture gives no Authority or Warrant for ; [ compared with his foregoing words , pag. 15. viz. ] That the People called Quakers ought to practise things imposed by Man , or in the Will of Man , &c. [ A most slanderous Perversion . ] VII . Pag. 30. That G. F. hath described himself one unto whom Infallible Judgment hath been committed in ALL things . [ This is suspected at least , for an Untruth , till proved . ] VIII . Pag. 32 , 33. That some amongst the People called Quakers , known to stand by G. F. ( in Vindication of many Errors ) have published , with seeming Zeal and thundring Lungs , such like kind of Doctrine and Exhortation as this , Away with this Jealous Spirit ; Oh Friends ! Exclude the Reason , the Wisdom and the Jealousie , and have an Eye to the Brethren ; if you do not see your selves , then follow us that do see ; [ compared with page 35. viz. ] If you do not see your selves , you must follow us that do see : A not able Expedient whereby the Leader , and those who may be led , may , like blind men , fall into the Ditch together , and instead of following the bright Beams of ●●e SUN , may be found Followers of the dark Body of the — MOON . [ These are , at least , suspected Untruths , and highly Scandalous , as laid down ; and his Allusion to the dark Body of the Moon is Improper , whether he intends really to that Body called the lesser Light , or some Person under that Name ; if the latter , 't is but an idle Scoff . ] IX Pag. 35. That there are many at this day that have no better measure to discover , whether one professing the Truth be right , and in the Light and Power of God , but by understanding how they stand affected to G. F. and his outward Prescriptions ; as if ALL the Labours , Tryals , Sufferings and Travels of Friends were to center in the Exhaltation of G. F. [ A sordid Reproach on many , and a foul Perversion . ] X Pag. 76. That what G. F. hath written by way of Reflection to J. W. is the Fruit either of Ignorance , Pride , Scorn and Disdain , in the BEST SENCE ; and that he hath been of so proud a Spirit , as to expect a sort of Reverence and Submission to him , which the Truth could not own . [ These appear insolent and defaming Charges , bespeaking rather this Accusers Pride and Arroganc● ] XI . Page 85. In W. R's Letter to G. F. dated Bristol the 27th of the 1st Moneth 1677. are these words , viz. and that thou hast no less esteem than the repute of an elder Brother , by all Friends , which as far as I know , thou hast not ; how can it be less than thy duty to Interpose , & c ? [ Compared with pag. 89. ] My plain Lines are the Fruit of a plain - hearted - Friend — with my Love to thee , &c. I remain a Friend to thee , &c. William Rogers . [ This last passage appears false and feigned , his Love and Frinedship to G. F. is now apparent Enmity to bite and devour him , what in him lies , yet these his smooth pretences appear contradictory to his manifest abuse of G. F. in many other passages , in treating him neither as an Elder ( according to 1 Tim. 5. 1. ) nor like a Friend , compared also with what follows . ] XII . VV. R. in his Letter to G. F. dated Bristol , the 3d of the 10th Moneth , 1677. pag. 92. That Darkness has overshadowed the Hearts of many , so that they seem like men void of ALL Wisdom and ALL Reason , whereby they seem to me ( i. e. to VV. R. ) as Proselites of such amongst the Sixty six Subscribers at E. H. his Chamber , who coming with another Gospel than that which stands in the Wisdom of God , have Preacht against ALL Wisdom and ALL Reasoning . [ These are very scornful Abuses , without proof or instance of the Persons , who the MANY or the SUCH charged are . ] XIII . Page 93. Those who stand in and for the same Faith and Practice they were in from the beginning , are now judged Apostatized , because they cannot imbrace , for Conscience sake , some NEW PRESCRIPTION , which thou art accounted either the Author or Countenancer of . [ VVhat new Prescription ? that 's but one in the Singular , else-where 't is Prescriptions in the Plural : And who are so judged , that so stand ? He should have made his Book on that one Prescription , if it were unsound , and not have made such a great hollow and empty noise about Prescriptions , Prescriptions . ] XIV . Page 93 , 94. I know that thou thy self hast been found in the like Action , ( that is , of going out of a Meeting when Persecutors came ) and if Reports be true , the frequentest of any Man that ever I heard called by the Name of a Quaker ; and 't is to me a broad sign , that this would not have been omitted as a grand Article against J. S. amongst others at Drawell , hadst not thou been guilty in the like case . [ Here he has not only scandalized G. F. but the Meeting at Drawell , or at least many concerned thereat , but that 's but only his own evil Jealousie . ] XV. Page 96. Gross Ignorance and thick Darkness for any to look upon thee as THAT PROPHET whom the Lord by his Servant Moses Prophesied he would raise up like unto him , &c. I cannot believe thou art ignorant that such there are who so look on thee . [ This is at least suspected for a great Scandal , and is very Pernicious . ] XVI . Page 98. Truly Friend , 't is much taken notice of , that ALL Reasoning and ALL Wisdom is preacht against of late . [ This we look on as a Falshood frequently reiterated , and here aggravated still , without any Instance or Proof of such Preachers or Preaching amongst us . ] XVII . Part 5. pag. 20. That the Faith of many are IN him ( i. e. in G. F. ) as one that cannot Err ; so that if he affirm any thing never so false , we take it to be unto MANY as an infallible proof , &c. [ This we judge is a horrid abuse against many , as also against G. F. ] W. R. in his Paper and Queries against , and to G. F. dated Bristoll the 20th of the 7th Moneth , 1678. hath these passages , pag. 26 , 27. viz. XVIII . That when the Persecuters came up one pair of Stairs in our Meeting-Room in Broadmead , whilst he was speaking , he — of such a Spirit ( distrustful and dispairing ) as on a sudden , to step down and hasten out of the Meeting at a back pair of Stairs which he once did , and of which my Eyes , with many more , were Witnesses . The like in p. 70. [ Against which G. F. testifies , as a false Accusation ; and though he pretends many more Eyes as Witnesses besides his Eyes , yet we find not any more so attesting it , besides himself , for neither the Women ( M. G. M. N. A. D. ) nor William James , nor Nathaniel Day , nor Samuel Hollister , do testifie any such thing in their Certificates , pag. 62 , 63. produced by him , as that their Eyes were Witnesses , that when the Persecuters came up one pair of Stairs , whilst G. F. was speaking , he once on a sudden stept down and hastened out of the Meeting at a back pair of Stairs ; There is no such thing attested by them in their Certificates , but that he departed before the Meeting broke up ; nor has W. R. told the Reader when this ONCE was , as what Day and Year he so suddainly stept down and hastened out as the Persecutors came up Stairs , which G. F. denyes , and accounts W. R's Eyes false Eyes , or rather his Evil Eye and Mind , is no sufficient proof against him , without other Eyes , more clear and impartial than his own . ] XIX . W. R. pag. 27. I query of G. F. whether he doth not remember that when the Souldiers , or some other Persecutors , came to a Meeting in or near London , at a certain time , when he was there , he did not go out of the Meeting , and betook himself to an upper-Room or Cock-loft ? For so I have been informed . [ To this G. F. saith NAY , They are false and wicked Charges and Accusations insinuated against him ; as also he saith , that of flying at Ringwood is a HORRID Lye , and that Friends there have certified the contrary . ] XX. Page ibid. And If Report be true , this is but VERY LITTLE of what might at large be manifested to prove Him one of the GREATEST Fleers and Shifters in time of Persecution that ever I knew , professing the Truth , and esteemed by others a faithful Friend . [ A foul Aspersion ; but instead of Proof , we have only his Accusation , grounded on his doubtful and frequent Expressions [ IF REPORT BE TRUE ] but Report is not generally true , therefore the more silly and malicious he to make that the ground of so many Infamous Accusations , where he neither produceth his Reporters nor Informers , but only [ IF REPORT BE TRUE , AND HE FIRMLY BELIEVES IT , pag. 33. ] XXI . Page 33. Against G. F. still , viz. Let the time past be sufficient ; Repent for thy many miscarriages , which God hath raised me as an Instrument in his Hand to discover . [ No , thou ●rt rather suffered to be a Revengful Instrument in Satan's hand for a little space . ] XXII . Page 35. Que. Whether thou G. F. didst not advise Nathaniel Crips to buy his Tythes both of Priest and Impropriator ? If thou deny it , I will undertake to prove it , or bring it under the Hand of Nathaniel Crips , that thou so did . [ Note , THIS G. F. hath positively denyed , and W. R's bringing it under the Hand of N. C. cannot reasonably be received for Proof , according to this his own dis-junctive proposition , viz. his Promise of undertaking to prove it , OR bring it under the hand of N. C. if he has done only the latter ( as we take it ) then not the former . ] XXIII . Pag. 39. Such — that say God hath given them Infallible Judgment in ALL things , and yet appear notoriously Fallible . [ This chiefly against G. F. ( as we take it ) but 't is suspected for an untruth , that ever he did so say of himself , as having Infallible Judgment given him in ALL things without limitation , yet so much Judgment as is given of God to any of his Servants is true and infallible . ] XXIV . Page 40. That 't is evident he ( meaning G. F. ) doth not heed what he writes ; and in the most Charitable Construction that I ( i. e. W. R. ) can put thereon ; the Reason he so doth springs from an Imagination possessing his Heart , that he concludes WHATEVER first arises in his mind , on the sight or hearing of any thing , is fit to be brought forth and stood by . [ These appear gross and presumptuous Lyes . ] XXV . Page 41. And truly , 't is to be doubted , the like Imagination hath possessed many , amongst whom I take John Blaikling to be one . Page ibid. John Blaikling and twenty five more Accusers and Informers against J. S. and J. VV. [ Doubtless he has greatly wronged John Blaikling from his own corrupt Jealousie , Scorn and Contempt against him and others , who deserve a better Character than Informers . ] XVI . Page 42. That he ( intending G. F. ) hath made Lyes his Refuge , thereby abusing honest men , that cannot submit to his Will ; 't is proper enough for me ( i. e. W. R. ) or any that may have a concern of Conscience , as I have , to discover the Fruits of such a deceiving , betraying Spirit , though behind the Back of him in whom it appears . [ See what a large Liberty he takes to revile and abuse , and vent his Malice ( and that under pretence of Conscience ) without all bounds , as one having cast off both all Gospel-Order and Friendship . ] XXVII . Page 44. About securing part of his outward Estate , he saith , Neither did I so do from any Dispensation given me from G. F. or any Body else . [ Compared with pag. 45. viz. ] I reasonably suppose , that his further meaning is , that he hath Power to dispence with Friends , doing something contrary to what they ( according to their own measure received ) have freedom in themselves to do — his Pride and Ignorance , &c. [ His reasonable Supposition is grosly unreasonable , and a horrid Presumption of that which was never known or before heard among us , to be G. F ' s meaning : Did ever more Pride , Scorn and Falshood appear in any open Adversary , than in this Opposer ? ] XXVIII Page 46. That asting according to ones Principle in some cases , at least , without an allowance so to do from G. F. is worthy of Condemnation , which I take to be the Fruit of his Pride and Ignorance . [ A gross abuse still , falsly insinuating that G. F. sets his own allowance above the inward Principle , thereby to render him Odious and Infamous as bad as the POPE . ] XXIX . Pag. 48. W. R. of G. F. viz. I am perswaded , that he would have added more to his Repute and Name , to — have given Glory to God , that he made Choice of so poor and mean a Person , through whom to preach the Everlasting Light , Christ Jesus — And if G. F. had EVER SINCE he went abroad to preach , laboured ( whilst able , and at leasure ) with his Hands , or otherwise been Industrous in an outward Calling , that the Gospel of Christ might not be CHARGEABLE , &c. [ Doth not this Insinuate , that he hath made the Gospel very Chargeable , for a long time since he went abroad to preach ? And is not this still to cast Dirt upon him . ] This compared with what he saith in his Preface * of such kind of Preachers , or rather Praters , whose Necessities have seemed to be a Bait unto them , to follow for the Leaves , and instead of gathering to God , gather to themselves . Adding also , Such like Doctrines — I am a witness from the hearing of my Ear , have in publick Meetings for Worship been publisht , as , [ Have an Eye to the Brethren ; if you do not see your selves , follow us that do see ] seems to me more like the Language of those Shepherds , who sought for their Gain from their Quarters , than the Language of such whom the Lord hath anointed , Pref. pag. 36. [ Very Gross and Unfair Dealing , Scandalous and Defaming ! Why does he not detect such Preachers , if there be any such , but thus Defame and Scandalize our Meetings with them ? 'T is to be hoped , that all true Preachers will be aware of W. R's Hospitality . ] Notwithstanding W. R's Reflecting on G. F. for not labouring with his hands ever since he went abroad to Preach ( whilst able , and at leasure ) to keep the Gospel without Charge ; he has but a few Lines before , given this Testimony for G. F. viz. I can truly say , and so I believe many more can , That in his Person I accounted the Testimony of the Apostle Paul fulfilled , who said , God hath chosen the Foolish things of the World , to confound the Wise ; and God hath chosen the Weak things of the World , to confound the Mighty , and base things of the World ; and things which are despised , hath God chosen , &c. And partly on this score , can I in the fear of the Lord say , and that justly too , that he was to me — TRUELY HONOURABLE . [ Qu. When was he so in God's Choice , and truly Honourable to W. R ? Was it not for many Years since he went abroad to preach the Everlasting Light ? Why then does he upbraid him for not labouring with his hands , ever since , whilst able , & c ? Behold his apparent Contradiction ! However , 't is one good turn , that W. R. was not ( nor is ) G. F's Master , to set him to work at his pleasure . XXXI . Pag. 49. W. R. to G. F. viz. POOR GEORGE ! I am sorry for thee , and pity thee , &c. [ A gross Lye ( or false flattery ) to be sure ; his Pity and Sorrow is to devour him , to throw all the Dirt he can upon him , by Rayling , Infamy and Reproach in Print , to destroy his Christian Reputation , as much as he can , though in that work he strives against the Stream . ] XXXII . Pag. 52. That G. F. seems to publish LYES , as it were by HEAPS . [ A Lye , so unlikely , as not likely to have Credit . ] XXXIII . Pag. 61. That he that runs may read , that G. F. in some cases doth NOT matter what he saith , ( which by his own Rule ) is the very Mark of that Spirit that made SOME LIKE DEVILS . [ A gross Slander . ] XXXIV . Pag. 69. Concerning the Testimony or Certificate of some ( viz. twenty eight ) Friends * of Bristol , in Answer to W. R ' s Charging G. F. for fleeing in time of Persecution ; W. R. in his Observations thereupon saith , They seem concerned to vindicate G. F's Innocency in this Case , yet they have done it but at a very poor rate , much like the PERJURED INFORMERS , that on the late Act have appeared against Friends . [ A most foul and gross Defamation , Scandal and Abuse . ] XXXV . Pag. 77. W. R. against G. F. and John Blaikling , viz. That 't is to me plain enough , that he can get A John Blaikling , a T. B. or an S. H. to write or sign ANY THING , when written , RIGHT OR WRONG , that may in his sence tend to his Vindication and my Condemnation . [ A fordid and soul Abuse of J. B. a Person known to be Conscientious towards God , and for ought we know , of better Esteem and Repute in his Country than W. R. in his . ] XXXVI . Pag. 78. That the Method of General Applause , used by John Blaikling — is more like a PARASITE to an Earthly Prince , than a Serious , Well-meaning Conscientious Christian to a Servant of Christ , that seeks not the Praise of Man. [ This appears a very foul and scornful Aspersion : We take the English of Parasite in this place , not in the antient and best sence , as , an Assistant or Officer to a chief Mastrate ; but in the now common and worst sence , i. e. A Flatterer for his Belly , that saith and doth in all things to please the Humour of another , to have his Repast ( or small Dinner ) Scot-free ; and therefore the Comparison , as placed upon J. B. appears Shameful , Gross and Scandalous ; nor is there any need for him to take any such Unconscionable course of Flattery , for such ( or any Outward ) Gratuities . ] XXXVII . Pag. 79. That John Blaikling hath or doth write at a Wicked and Ungodly rate ; [ compar'd with pag. 81. viz. ] John Blaikling cannot lay all his Prophane and Wicked Charges against me at my Door : And pag. 82. John Blaikling hath been so puffed up with Spiritual Pride ; and that the Lord hath suffered his Wisdom to be turned into Folly , and his Zeal into Envy . [ W. R. in these and other Passages appears in a very great Storm and Outrage against John Blaikling , and extreamly Abusive : But as to the particular Matters , being about a Certificate , 't is not to be doubted but J. B. can give a better , a more Conscientious and tender Account than W. R. hath done against him ; and no question but he is able to bear W. R's Reproaches patiently . ] As for his pretended Testimonies from Hartford against G. F. pag. 85 , 86 , 87. which are before examined , it may be further added , that there are since come to hand , more full and consistent Accounts , under the Hands of divers Credible Persons , on G. F's behalf , too large here to insert ; whence it may easily be gathered and perceived , wherein the Mistakes ( in all probability ) have been , in confounding and mixing G. F's Discourses . However , his denying Matter of Fact ( as stated against him by them ) as being an absolute Perversion of his words , might in Charity be so far accepted by his Accusers , as not to persist in casting that upon him , which he is so far from being tenatious in , that he wholly denyes the matter as certified , both in Fact and Intention . Doubtless they would not be so served . And truly , it is matter of some Sorrow to some that know our Antient Friend T. M. of Baldock , who have Love and good Will to him , to see his Name in Print ( whether with his Knowledge and Consent or not , he knows best ) to such a silly and frivilous Certificate , as that G. F. said , There came acouple to a Meeting to be Marryed — and the Man said , Mr. Story , Mr. Story , putting off his Hat , &c. [ which varyes from those Certificates from Hartford , which mention Mr. Story but once in each ; one would think T. M's Age and Gravity should require and sute more grave and weighty Matter to be exposed in Print . ] XXXVIII . And whereas W. R. in his Preface bitterly Enveighs , telling of the Envy of a Proud man , that seeks Lordship over the Consciences of others , putting the Bears Skin upon the back of a Friend of Truth , spreading abroad Certificates of Defamation , right or wrong , amongst Enemies as well as Friends , according to the Example ( saith he ) of G. F. when writing to H. S. R. T. and another Person of Hartford , he thus said , Here is a Certificate enclosed , &c. which you may shew both to Enemies and Friends . This seems greatly Aggravated and Mis-construed against G. F. in which he accounts himself greated abused , ( his Intention being perverted ) affirming , That his Meaning was NOT that they should shew them to the WORLD , but to those and such ENEMIES that were PRETENDED FRIENDS , under the Profession of Truth , and yet spread Untruths behind his back up and down the Country ( such as are since affected with W. R. his Book . ) XXXIX . Another more apparent untruth in his Preface , p. 10. is , That the Opposers of the Christian-Quaker , ( meaning such as oppose W. R. and those of his Party , whom he pleads for ) sometimes affirm , that a good Cause may be ill Mannaged , and a bad Cause well Mannaged , thereby Insinuating into ignorant People , that though J. S. and his Friends have Mannaged their Cause well , whilst their Opposers have Mannaged their Cause but ill . [ This is a very unlikely Story , that their Opposers should so insinuate against themselves ; and we do not believe , that W. R. their chief Agent , in their Cause , hath Mannaged it well , but greatly to his own and their Disadvantage . ] XL Another notorious and two-fold Untruth ( before opened in this Treatise ) is , that by these words [ Do not strive , nor make Bargains with that ( i. e. that Spirit ) which is out of the Truth ] W. R. insinuates , that G. F ' s Meaning must be , That he would not have Friends Discourse , nor have orderly Conference , in order to Reconciliation , nor to Bargain , Buy or Sell with such whom he condemns , until they Answer by Condemnation [ Which are gross Falshoods and foul Perversions . ] The like Perversion has he made on another Friend's words ( in pag. 4 , 5. of his Preface ) viz. Let not this Spirit be reasoned with ; enter not into Proposals and Articles with it but ; feed it with Judgment , that is God's Decree ; so may the Souls that are deceived come by the right Door into the heavenly Unity , &c. yet * ( saith W. R. ) he himself did a few Moneths after accompany G. F. to the City of Bristol , and there enter into Reasonings , Proposals and Articles with such as owned J. S. &c. — contrary to his own Counsel . [ Here W. R. hath dealt very Disingeniously , confounding the Persons with the Spirit , making no difference between entring into Terms with the Spirit , and some Proposals with the Persons , for a fair Discourse concerning the Difference ; as if we could not Reason with the Persons , without entring into Covenant and Terms with the Spirit of Division ; whereas he knows the contrary ; and that when W. P. entred into Articles with him at Bristol , it was but for Method and Order , in Discoursing Matters in Difference , and for a Narrative thereof , according to Agreement from both Parties , and not to acquit that Spirit of Division in W. R. or any of his Party from just Judgment , nor yet to enter into an Agreement and Peace with it upon its own Terms , muchless to set W. R. ( as he is in that Spirit ) upon equal Ground and Terms with the Church of Christ , or Body of Friends concerned in Judgment against it , who yet desire , that the Souls that are deceived may come in by the right Door , and be restored into the heavenly Unity , and on that account may Reason with the Persons , and propose due Methods to them , for their good ; but not enter into Covenant with that Spirit of Discord , which will submit to no Terms of Agreement and Reconciliation , but in its own Will and Way , which Truth cannot admit of . Surely 't is no Contradiction to stand in true Judgment against an Evil Spirit , and yet gently endeavour to perswade the Creature out of it . And concerning the preparing his Manuscript , and bringing forth his Birth , viz. his Book in Print , he hath this passage in his Preface , viz. XLII . And to my inward Peace and Joy in the Lord , I can say , that I have the evidence of his Spirit ( notwithstanding what any man may say to the contrary ) that he hath owned my Proceedings therein hitherto ; and not only so , but that there hath been an answer thereto in many Brethren . Note , That we do not charge him in this Passage with down right designed Lyes against Knowledge , but with strong Delusion and Error , which is the effect of his believing a Lye ( which the Devil is the Father of ) which will be his own Trouble in the End ; nor can we believe that he says true , in saying , There hath been an answer in MANY BRETHREN , seeing there has not yet appeared any Brethren , so much as his own , that would publickly own or stand by his Book , as having the Evidence of God's Spirit for it , when closely called in Question about it . Abundance of his Abuses , Perversions , Raylery , Slanders , Falshoods , Scorn , Reviling and foul Aspersions , are here omitted and passed by , which are dispersed throughout his Book ; for which he is left to the Righteous Judge of all , to deal with him , as ( no doubt ) he will , in his own due time . XLIII . As concerning the Quotation about Micahs Mother , Judges 17. which he has made a great ado about , over and over in his Book , calling it , THAT ABOMINABLE QUOTATION , Part 4. pag. 96. which seems but an Irreverent Character of a Quotation out of holy Scripture . And concerning the Woman ( or Widdow ) of Tekoah , and what she said to King David , 2 Sam. 14. W. R. also shews himself very fierce against this poor Widdow , accusing her over and over with a LYING STORY , Part 5. p. 5. Whereas it was but a Parable or Form of Speech , as Joab had directed her to save Absolom's Life . At this rate W. R. might charge the Prophet's Parable to King Ahab , 1 Kings 20. 39. and abudance of Parables more in the holy Scriptures , with being Lying Stories , because it seems G. F. expressed some Charitable Thoughts concerning these and other Women , as having Virtue , or some Religion in them towards God in their day and time * although some were clouded with Superstition . For the further opening of which Controversie , we refer the Reader to a short Tract written by our Antient and Learned Friend Richard Richardson , Entituled , A few Ingredients against the Venom of William Rogers his Book , stiled , The Christian-Quaker Distinguished , &c. A Passage in William Rogers's Postscript , about a Meeting with G. F. and William Mead's Exception against it , being concerned in the Matter . Postscript , pag. 24. dated , at Bristol , the 8th of November , 1680. XLIV W. R. As a further Evidence of my readyness to meet George Fox , and his declining thereof , I thought meet to insert this Additional Postscript : A Friend from London advised me — That William Mead desired Nicholas Lucas , that it might be intimated unto me , That now George Fox would give me a Meeting — Which occasioned me immediately to take care that my Mind might be communicated to Nicholas Lucas , who thereupon — acquainted William Mead , That their desire , that I would give G. F. a Meeting , was accepted by me , provided , that G. F. would give it under his Hand to meet me . To which , William Mead said , He would speak to G. F. about it : And afterward th● said William Mead told Nicholas Lucas , He had spoke with George Fox , and his Answer was , He would not give it under his hand , nor write to me . By which all Impartial Readers may further judge whether George Fox hath any Inclination at all to give me a Meeting , for clearing of Matters laid to his Charge . William Mead's Exception . Against which account W. Mead objects , That it is not the whole Truth , but Partial , Fallacious & Abusive both to him and George Fox , in leaving out the most Material part of G. F. his Answer , which was , That he would meet William Rogers in his own way , before Persons chosen on each side , provided , that he came within a certain time , while he staid in the City ; as also in leaving out the Reason William Mead gave , why G. F. refused to give it under his hand , which was , That he was sensible , they would make an ill use of it , against him in Print ; as also , in leaving out Account of William Mead's Engaging on G. F's behalf , for his giving W. R. a Meeting ; but W. R. would not accept of his Security in that Case . The Matter was more particularly thus , viz. William Mead understanding that Nicholas Lucas and John Barnard were concerned on William Rogers's behalf , for the bringing forth of his Book in Print , he asked them the reason , Why they would bring forth such a Book ( as he heard it was ? ) They told him , That George Fox would not give W. R. a Meeting . William Mead replyed , That he did believe , that G. F. would not decline giving him a Meeting . Nicholas Lucas asked him , If he would Engage he should give him a Meeting ? William Mead told him , 'T was not Proper so to engage , till he had spoken with G. F. first . VVhereupon William forthwith went and spake with G. F. about it , who very freely and readily answered , That if William Rogers desired it , he would meet him , in his own way , before Persons chosen on each side , provided , he came within a certain time , while he staid in or about the City . VVith which Answer , the very next day on the Exchange , William Mead acquainted Nicholas Lucas , then adding , That he now would Engage on G. F's behalf , that he should certainly give VV. R. a Meeting . VVhereupon Nicholas Lucas seemed to be satisfied , and said , He would stay the coming forth of the Book ; and said , He would write to VVilliam Rogers about it . Some time after , Nicholas Lucas meeting William Mead upon the Exchange , told him , He had writ to VVilliam Rogers , and received his Answer , which was , THAT HE WOULD HAVE IT UNDER GEORGE FOX HIS HAND . William Mead forthwith again spake with G. F. about it , who said , He mattered not the giving it under his Hand ; but that he was sensible , they would make an ill use of it in Print ; for which very cause only , he forbore giving it under his hand ; but did not refuse giving W. R. a Meeting . However , then William Mead did proffer very earnestly to Engage on behalf of G. F. for his certain giving W. R. a Meeting . Nicholas Lucas his Answer was , That VVilliam Rogers would not take his Security in this matter . A summary Collection of more Passages and Acknowledgments in William Rogers his Book , which may stand for Answer to him , and in Condemnation against himself , and to the manifest Confutation of all that he has written or can write in general against a Form of Church-Government , outward Order , Discipline ▪ &c. in his own words granting to Truth . OUr Expectations were , that every Member should there appear in subjection to Christ the Head and higher Power , unto which as Members of his Body we owe Obedience : In this sence we readily embraced the Counsel , to meet together to Serve , but not to bear Rule over one anothers Consciences ; and the matters intended by us , to be transacted in those Meetings , and by others also ( as far as we understood ) were chiefly to take care of the Poor , the Fatherless and the Widdow ; and that if any professed the Truth , and Dishoncured the same by Prophane and Evil Conversation , we might by such wayes and means , as the Lord on every occasion might direct ▪ Part 1. pag. 38. We are not against appointed Meetings for the outward Services of Truth ; for that hath been and is our Practice , knowing that there may be a Service therein , as occasion offers , provided , all in such Meetings may be kept in Humility , as Servants each to other , and the Truth ; not Exercising Lordship over the Conscience , which is God's Prerogative . Part 2. pag. 64 , 65. The Author to the Hebrews tell us , That Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our Faith : No doubt , this was not a work done in a Moment or Twinckling of an Eye ; for though he is the Authour & Object of every true Christian Faith , yet we learn from the holy Scriptures , that such as believed , that Jesus was the Lord , stood in need of many Exhortations , Reproofs and Instructions , to build them up in the most holy Faith ; and all this may be attributed to Christ , the Author thereof . Part 3. pag. 34. The Apostles Labours were to establish the Churches in the Faith , and in the Power , having them so established to be in the Practice of that Form which the Power either had or should lead them into ; and therefore the Apostle might well say , Be ye not unwise , but understanding what the VVill of the Lord is ; submitting your selves one to another in the fear of God. Part 3. pag. 41. If Differences arise between Brother and Brother , I do conclude , that going to Law before Unbelievers , is an Indication that one or both are departed from the Truth ; and that it is the Duty of such who are at variance , to request such Brethren as are skilled in the matters touching which they differ , to hear and determine the Case , and then of a willing and ready Mind ( and not as by constraint ) to submit unto such Determination ; and that it ought to be as an incumbant Duty on the Members of Christs Church , to be watching over one another , so as that by wholsom Counsel , Admonition , and sound Doctrine , all Variance , Strife , Emulation , Rents and Divisions , both in relation to Temporal , as well as Spiritual Matters , may , as much as in them lies , be kept out from amongst the Members of Christs Body . Part 3. pag. 23. Not that I would be understood , that it s not necessary to be in the Exercise of outward Order , with respect to that Gospel Discipline which becomes the Church of Christ — Pag. 24. The Principle of Truth in these latter dayes hath and may further lead into the Practice of outward Order in Discipline , with relation to the Church of Christ. [ This is a very fair Confession in words , to the Overthrow of much of his Book . ] Part 4. pag. 38. John Wilkinson and John Story their Testimony , viz. That inward Sence and heavenly Understanding we have received from God , hath and yet doth confirm us in this Judgment , That 't is not agreeable with the Line of Truth , to oppose others in the Exercise and appointed Service of the said Meetings , as heretofore , and yet settled and agreed upon , who being Conscientious therein . And if any of our words and actions have had any tendency to oppose , we say , the Truth in us would have condemned it , even as it now doth . Part 4. pag. 24. As perticular Members are become Marryed unto Christ , and having all fellowship each with other in the Spirit ; those who are such , ought to demean themselves each towards other full of Love , Charity , Bowels of Compassion , Long-suffering , Forbearance , Meekness , Humility , Patience , Gentleness , and all other Virtues that are the Fruits of the Spirit of God. [ A fair Acknowledgment , good Words ; but these Virtues and Fruits are awanting in W. R. How do these Acknowledgments agree with his Uncharitable , Unchristian Dealing in his Book ? ] Part 4. pag. 100. Such who contend , that their Order for Gospel Discipline ought to spring from Truth within themselves ; for that was the undoubted Sence of those honourable Brethren , who knew a travel of Spirit , for the gathering of those who in the beginning of this latter day , were gathered as a sort of first Fruits unto God. [ Here he has granted Order for Gospel-Discipline , springing from Truth within , which answers his general Oppositions to outward Order , Form and Discipline . ] WHereas William Rogers hath concerned ( by way of Reflection ) the second dayes Meeting of Friends in London , ( which is the Morning Meeting at E. H. his Chamber ) in his Book entituled , The Christian-Quaker distinguished from the Apostate and Innovator . This Treatise , entituled , The Accuser of our Brethren cast down , &c. is signed by the agreement and on the behalf of the said Meeting , by Ellis Hookes . London , the 1st day of the 6th Moneth , 1681. A Postscript , Partly by way of Question , and partly some Friends Sence on W. R's way of Writing . SEeing William Rogers has taken so much occasion at the Printed Epistle of two Sheets , by Anne Whitehead and Mary Elson , as the Principal Instance for his proceeding to Print and Publish his Book , the Question is , Whether some of Party with William Rogers did not publish several Parts of his Book to divers Persons , whilst it was designed to be published by single Parts , and before the said Epistle by Anne Whitehead and Mary Elson was writ or designed for the Press ? And whether William Rogers did not assent or give way to their so doing ? He informing the Reader , That though the five Parts of his Treatise be bound up together , yet 't was once designed , that they should be also published by single Parts . The Question still is , If some of those Parts were not published in single Parts , as before ? Let William Rogers or any of his Party deny it if they can ; And was not this a Publication in Print , every one of his five Parts being designed for a single Book , as well as to be Bound together in one Volumn ? 'T is true , as he saith , That some things ( he should have said many things ) are often inserted , and the wording of other things not so Proper and Concise as might be , Pref. Cond . For indeed many things are often inserted , and Improperly , as well as Impertinently , reiterated after a tedious manner , and in a perplexed perverse way . The Stile and Method is not Compendious nor Succinct , nor yet plain or easie to be understood by Persons unacquainted with his Knotty and Fallacious way of Writing , and long deviating Parenthesis ; much of it looks asquint and with two Faces ; it s writ as by a Person upon various Reserves and Provisions , to save his Head from an expected Blow . It appears to be no Simple or Innocent way of Writing , or clear Oratory ; 't is neither pleasant in the Manner , nor in the Matter , to a Clear , Ingenuous or Tender Conscience : It makes a show and flourish of Conscience , Reason and Religion , but appears void of all , and much of it but like a HOCUS POCUS , or LEGER DEMAIN , upon a strict and clear Inspection with the Light of Truth , into the matter and manner of it . Something of Concern added by another Hand . WHereas there is a false Jealousie begot in some of our Adversaries and Opposers , That we would impose things upon them ( that have not Sence , do not See , and have not Faith in them ) to act without Faith , in a blind Obedience ; which is utterly false , and against our Principle , to Impose any thing upon Senceless , Blind and Faithless People . And now , all you that have opposed us without Sence , Sight and Faith , your Senceless , Blind and Faithless Opposition hath not pleased God ; for without Faith none can please God ; and where there is Faith , there is Sence and Sight ; and God never accepted the BLIND for a SACRIFICE , neither do his Faithful Spiritual People . And therefore we say and declare to all our Opposers , Let them return to the Light , Spirit , Truth and Grace , which at first convinced them , and judge down the contrary , and in that we can receive them . And let them call in all their Papers , and the Book which they have given forth in Print , since they went out from their Unity with Friends in the Spirit of God , and come again to it , and with it condemn and judge all that they have given forth ( tending to Division ) since they went out from the Spiritual Union and Fellowship ; and let J. S. and J. W. take out their Names from the Paper of Separation , as also the rest of them that are left behind in the Seperation ; in which Paper they say , That some of other Counties , and some amongst themselves , not chosen by the Churches , have come and intermeddled with them , and with their Business , and usurped Authority over them , whom they never gave Power to . So that if they ( who yet remain in the Seperation ) will burn this Paper * and condemn and testifie against that Spirit that gave it forth , and not pretend themselves to give People Power ( in the Churches Affairs ) calling others , Usurpers of Authority , whom they have not given Power to , and so to set up mans Power , to do Business in the Church of God ; and if they will condemn this Power of their own , & leave every Man and Woman to the Light , Grace and Truth , Spirit and Gospel , which they have from Christ Jesus , in which all receive Christ Jesus , their Lord from Heaven , who gives Power to become his Sons and Daughters , and to meet in his Power ; in this Light , Grace and Truth , Spirit and Power , which is received from Christ , in which is our Order and Fellowship ; we say , as we feel them come into this , we can receive them , and not otherwise . We are Men of Peace , and are in the Peaceable Gospel , and in the Kingdom of Peace , and would have all Mankind come into Peace , the Covenant of Peace , Grace , Light and Life ; and also we would have these return again , that have been Opposers , to come to the Spirit and Gospel of Jesus , that they are gone from , that in it we might have Peace with them ; without it , is not the Eternal Peace . And as we are concerned to bring to Truth , such as were never convinced , so we Travel for their Return to Truth , that are gone from it , that they may come again to that which did at first convince them of it . THE END . ERRATA . Friends and Friendly Readers ; YOu are desired to amend these ( being the most Material ) Faults , that have escaped the Press , according to this Errata . As for litteral Faults , and Mis-pointings , they may be perceived by the Matter in reading . Page 5. line 19. for Afficious read Officious . pag. 24. line 29. for heirs read theirs . p. 39. l. 25. r. Retracts his Sentence . p. 42. l. 8. r. counted worthy . p. 44. l. 29. f. various r. varyes . p. 71. l. 26. f. two r. to . p. 78. l. 18. f. Also r. All. p. 79. l. 17. r. Offenders . p. 89. l. 6. f. Christ's r. Christ. p. 93. l. 2. f. Conscious r. Conscientious , l. 26. r. Parties . p. 114. l. 24. r. the matter [ about Church-Government . ] p. 145. l. 8. f. in Form r. Inform. p. 147. l. 17. f. or r. on . p. 167. l. 19. f. Probatione r. Probationes . p. 174. l. 14. f. Disaffections r. Dissatisfactions . p. 176. l. 26. f. likening r. liking . p. 184. l. 12. f. at him r. at them . p. 189. l. 4. r. Persons . p. 230. l. 10. dele Interlineary , l. 17. r. Dissention . Some other litteral Errors excuse . Books Printed for John Bringhurst . An Epistle of Caution to Friends , to beware of that Spirit that is entred into W. R. &c. Price Three half Pence . The Accuser of our Brethren cast down in Righteous Judgment , against that Spirit of Hellish Jealousie , vented in a Book written by William Rogers , Entituled , The Christian-Quaker , &c. Price 1 s. A few Ingredients against the Venom of William Rogers's Book , stiled , The Christian-Quaker , &c. Price 1 d. The Life of Christ Magnified , &c. being the Testimonies of several Friends concerning that faithful Servant of the Lord Giles Barnardistan , Price 3 d. Something concerning Agbarus , Prince of the Edesseans , Price 1 d. An Epistle of Paul to the Laodiceans , Price 1 d. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65833-e270 Pref. p. 2 , 3. Par 4. p. 77. * Pref. p. 8. * Prov. 27. 4. & 6. 34. Ezek. 8. 3. Numb . 5. 14. Cant. 8 6. Notes for div A65833-e5390 * Que. Where are those Printed Terms ? Pag. 26. Pag. 27. Pag. 28. * As he pleaded at a Meeting at Devonshire-house , London , the 27th of the 3d Moneth 1681. * The Son of God may give forth his own Spiritual Law and Testimony in his Ministers and Servants , not only in One , but Many of them , as he pleaseth ; and his Law and Ministry is not to be kept hidden . * This Passage he has Contradicted in his Third Part , pag. 36. where he grants , That every Case of one Brother's ●respassing against another , may according to Right Reason , be comprehended . So here 's his Right Reason against his Reasonable Conclusion . † Disaffect 21. Pag. 2● . 2 Cor 11. 3. 1 Cor. 12 * Compare this with the Paper which W. R. signed at Anne Travers's House , 1673. and that in 1672. relating to a Godly Care , Order and Government in the Church , wherein Advice is given to Friends , who have a Care and Oversight committed to them , in their respective places , by the Lord for good Order and Comfort of the Church , as the words are therein ; which Epistle was signed by James Parks , Jasper Batt , John Story , Thomas Curtis , John Crook , Stephen Crisp , Thomas Green , and thirteen more Friends , and was a very Seasonable Epistle , dated , the 31th of the 3d Moneth , 1672. Third part , pag 12. † Can this be justly Insinuated , when many of them had heard both Parties at Drawell , in Matter of Fact ? And why does W. R. take no better notice of the Advice given by the said Subscribers , for Reconciliation ? And can he think that none of them could shew Reason for such Advice and that from their own Knowledge , who were Persons of more Credit than himself ? * Qu. Did W. R. know his Parentage ? how many degrees were they meaner than his own ? However , he would have us all know , what an Industrous Merchant he is , and how able to assist others ; thus he has divulged his own Fame in Print , part 5. pag. 22. † Gross and Abusive Insinuations ; what better than to render him an Epicurian or Gluttonous Person ? Is this W. R's concern of Conscience , to write thus sordidly ? They that fear God , had need to have a care , how they eat and drink at his Table , or at any of theirs that own his Book , lest he upbraid them with it in Print . Part 4. p. 3 , 4. * Lye 30. * Note , that W. R. has only published this Subscription thereto , viz. John Ware , and twenty seven Persons more , as if poor John Ware was the chief of them all : This is but a Silly Fallacious Cover , to lessen the Credit of their Testimony . * Lye 41. * See 2 King. 17. 34. and 41. vers . Part 1. pag. 15 , 16. * Not because it contains a Form relating to Church-Government , but because it hath in it such limitted kind of Terms and Prescriptions as could not be received in the Universal Spirit of Christ , or Unity thereof , because it tended to a Separation , as strictly stood upon by the Proposers and Subscribers . 
A65874	----	The nature of Christianity in the true light asserted in opposition to antichristianism, darkness, confusion, & sin-pleasing doctrines : being a looking glass for sin-pleasing professors of all sorts / written upon particular occasion herein signified, by a servant of Christ, G. Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1671 Approx. 165 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 38 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65874 Wing W1942 ESTC R39132 18217111 ocm 18217111 107200 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65874) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 107200) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1136:18) The nature of Christianity in the true light asserted in opposition to antichristianism, darkness, confusion, & sin-pleasing doctrines : being a looking glass for sin-pleasing professors of all sorts / written upon particular occasion herein signified, by a servant of Christ, G. Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 74, [1] p. s.n.], [London : 1671. Place of publication suggested by Wing. "An aditional postscript by George Keith to Robert Gordon"--p. 60-69. Imperfect: stained, with print show-through. Errata : p. [1] at end. Reproduction of original in the Union Theological Seminary Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Theology, Doctrinal. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Melanie Sanders Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Melanie Sanders Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE NATURE OF CHRISTIANITY IN THE True Light ASSERTED . In opposition to Antichristianism , Darkness , Confusion , & Sin-pleasing Doctrines . BEING A Looking-Glass For Sin-pleas●ng Professors of all Sorts . Written upon particular occasion herein signified ; By a Servant of Christ , G. Whitehead . If we say that we have fell●wship with him , and walk in darkness , we lie and do not the Truth , 1 Joh. 1.6 . Printed in the Year , 1671. AN Epistle Explanatory To the Unprejudiced READER· COntention , especially with perverse spirits , that desire it , and seek occasion for it , is not a thing desireable to me ; howbeit , for the living and precious Truth 's sake , and that living effectual faith which was once deliver'd to the Saints , I am one necessitated earnestly to contend , being brought forth and rais'd up by the Power of the Living God for that end , against perverse Gainsayers and peevish Opposers : One of whom I find one ROBERT GORDON , in a second piece of Antichristianism , stuft with Confusion , Perversion of Scriptures , Abusing and Belying the People call'd Quakers ; though he hath given it the Title of Christianity Vindicated , but therein hath discover'd a great deal of his own , and of his Tutor's Ignorance of the very Nature of Christianity , as concerning those weighty matters of Salvation ; to wit , Reconciliation , Justification , and Redemption ; which in the true nature and sense thereof are in this Treatise unfolded , according to the holy Scriptures ; although this man hath grosly wronged divers of us , by accusing us , as if we did oppose and seek to overthrow the plain Testimonies and Voices of all the Prophets and Apostles , concerning the True Saviour , or the Man Christ Jesus , whom we have frequently confessed , both as to his Divinity , and as to his taking upon him the Body , prepar'd for him to do the Will of God in , according to the Scriptures of Truth ; yea , both his outward and inward Appearance , his Suffering Nature , and Glorified State , and his Divinity in both we have always truly believ'd and confess'd ; even his Dignity , Spiritual Out-goings from of old , from everlasting ; as also his outward Birth , and coming in the fulness of time in that Body , wherein he shew'd forth Innocency , Preacht Righteousness , wrought Miracles , suffered Contradictions , Crucifying , and Death , by wicked hands ; together with his Glory , Dignity , Resurrection , and glorious Triumph ; as a Captain , as a Conqueror , Leader , and Example through all : These things have a Spiritual and Divine Impression upon us , and a place in our hearts ; through that eternal Spirit , by which Christ offered up himself a Lamb without Spot , and a Sacrifice of a sweet smelling Savour to God ; which things being so openly and frequently own'd by us , according to the Scriptures of Truth : We cannot but look upon it as a wilful Perversion and wicked Abuse in this R. G. or any others , contrariwise to represent us , when ( as to him ) we have only oppos'd his confus'd dark Testimony , which is without Life , and much of it without Sense or Reason ; although pervertedly he hath interwoven some Scriptures , abus'd by him in it : Howbeit , he saith , He hath testified to what he received of the Lord , and witnessed through and under the Ministry of those I ca●l Presbyterians and I●dependants . Now seeing he hath learn'd his Testimony or Religion of such , and yet hath pirked up , as if he were ●ome-body , or could do more against us then his Tutors or Fraternity ( although he falls short of many of them , in the manage●ent of their Cause ) I should think it were more Prudence in the Presbyterians and Indepen●ants , to stop such shallow Cavellers and forward Novices , as can scarce write three Pages , without manifestly contradicting themselv●s , as this their Disciple R. G. hath done , who will never bring any Honour to the Cause of Presbyterians and Independants : He should have let us known , whether they do approve of this his work against us , yea , or nay ; which it he write again , we desire him to signifie , whether he is own'd , and his work approv'd of , by the Presbyterians and Independants , yea , or nay ? Some suppose it probable , that what he hath writ against the Innocent and Suffering People of God in this nature , hath some Self-interest and End , as either of some Preferment , or Applause at least ; who though he be dismounted with the Times , from his former Place and Preferment , yet is not content to live quietly in that obscurity he is in , but he must Villifie , Reproach and Slander an Innocent People , who have appear'd ( and do stand up ) for God , and the Testimony of Jesus , in his Divine Power , where such peevish , pittiful , underly Cavellers as R. G. dare not shew their Faces for Christ ( nor yet for their own Directory and Church-Faith ) for all their pretended Zeal for him , though he and they can carp and quarrel against us , who are under Sufferings : And he having shown himself both an Antinomian , a shatter'd Presbyterian , and Independant , he is the more fit man to insinuate into such , especially the more ignorant sort of them , for some Applause or Name to himself , like many of his selfish Teachers before , who being dismounted from their parochial Bishopricks , Pulpits & Tythes , are now for the rattling of the Platters , which have been v●ry beneficial to many such fain'd Preachers and Temporizers , who can make a florish in fair Weather ; but ei●her ●lee , Sculk , or Comply , when a Storm or a Pinch comes ; or otherwise , drive a Trade more privately , and have the Platters rattle more secr●tly , with their Watchers and Spies at ea●h Corner , to give them warning , lest they should be surpriz'd for driving a Trade unlicens'd , that they may escape out at Back-doors , ●or By-wayes , which hath been the manner and practice of such as R. G's . Tutors , notwithstanding their severely pressing their Hearers to Faithfuln●ss , and to Stand fast , &c. when they are no Example thereof themselves ; but on slite Occasions ready to flee like Hirelings — and ready to give their ●locks the ●●ip . And now as to the Doctrinal part of his Book , he having affirm'd a Justification a●d Redemption of men , even while no good is wrought in them by any Light or Spirit whatsoever ; and when no qualificat●on is wrought in man by any Spirit whatsoever ( to mend the matter he adds ) in order to the perfecting the Purchase of Redemption , &c. Which word , purchase , he thus explains , in an Unscriptural and Nonsensical stile , viz. That God man purchased and compleated Reconciliation , Justification , &c. with God , at once , without us ( which is as good sense , as to say , God Purchas'd them of God ) and for Proof thereof , he very many times over repeats that Scripture , Rom. 5.10 If when we were Enemies , we were reconciled to God , by the death of his Son ( not so much minding the following words ) much more being reconciled , we shall be sav'd by his Life : And verse 11. We have now received the Attonement , &c. This he hath made a Cloak for his justification of men , even while no good is wrought in them ( one while saying , they are reconcil'd to God ; another while , God to them ) Now though plenteous Redemption , Salvation , and Peace were in being in Christ for us , while Enemies ; and that God commended his Love towards us , in that while we were Sinners , Christ died for us , vers . 8. which doth explain the intent of the words [ If when we were Enemies we were reconcil'd to God , by the death of his Son &c. ] yet it is not the nature of Reconciliation for men to be Enemies to God : I appeal to the Conscience of both R.G. and all other Professors , Whether Enmity and Reconciliation do not differ ? And whether , while Persons are at enmity , they be then actually reconcil'd ? Though while we were Enemies , we were reconcil'd , by the death of his Son ; intentionally on God's Terms , but not actually in our selves , till the Enmity was slain in us ; as God , with reference to his Purpose , speaks to Abraham , I have made thee a Father of many Nations ( before he was actually so made ) For Paul , in the following words , saith , God , who quickeneth the Dead , calleth those things which be not as though they were , Rom. 4.17 . And also Zacharias , being filled with the Holy Ghost , he Prophesied saying , Blessed be the Lord God of Israel , for he hath visited and redeemed his People , Luke 1.67 , 68. and to the end of the chapter : Now though this [ Redeemed ] be spoken of as a thing done , yet it was spoken of in the Prophesie , of Christ the Horn of Salvation ; whose Salvation is Deliverance and Preservation out of the hands of our Enemies , that we may serve him , without fear , in Holiness and Righteousness before him all the dayes of our life : This was not witnessed when the Enemy rul'd , and no good was wrought in us . Further , If Reconciliation and Redemption had been actually finish'd without us , when no good was wrought in us , what needed the Apostle so earnestly beseech and pray them in Christ's stead to be reconciled to God ? 2 Cor. 5.20 . They might have said , that is done and complated already : Or to say , Tbat Jesus Christ gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from all Iniquity , and purifie unto himself a peculiar People , & c ? Tit. 2.14 . They might have said we are redeem'd at once already without us , while no good is wrought in us ; What needst thou to tell us of redeeming from all Iniquity , or of being purified ? We do not expect any such thing while we live here , and yet we are redeemed , justified , and perfect in Christ. This is according to R. G's . Doctrine and Sense ; but the Apostle's Sense is contrary , as where he saith , You that were sometimes alienated , and Enemies in your minds by wicked works ; yet now hath he reconciled in the Body of his Fl●sh , through Death , to present you Holy , and Vnblameable , and Vnreprovable in his sight ; if ye continue in the Faith grounded and se●tled , Col. 1.21 , 22 , 23. Mark here the nature and tendency of a reconcil'd state● and how it differs from that of Enemies in the mind , as you were sometimes Enemies , yet now reconciled , viz. Ye Saints and faithful Brethren in Christ , which are at Coloss , chap. 1.2 . But the mind of him that is an Enemy in his mind is not reconcil'd to God or his Truth . Drunkards , Swearers , and Ranters , are not in a reconcil'd State , nor justified State ; neither is God reconcil'd to them , nor in Union with them . Again , The words Purchased and Redemption , are us'd by R. G. in an Unscriptural Sense , while he doth so nonsensically render it as God man , having purchased all of God without , and so justified man , when no good is wrought in him by the Spirit of God ; and as if Christ's Works without , were the previous purchasing cause of the Love of God ; and also , states man's Justification and Redemption , as only without , and preceeding the work of the Spirit within ; whereas redeeming from all Iniquity and Bondage , under which man was sold , is not wrought without the opperation of the Spirit of God within ; but it is a Work to be fulfilled within , where Sin and Bondage have ruled ? and being Washed , Sanctified , and Justified by the Spirit , are plac'd in their proper order , 1 Cor. 6.11 . Sanctified being plac'd before Justified . And the Apostle Paul saith , You are seal'd with the Holy Spirit of Promise , which is the earnest of our Inheritance ( note that ) until the Redemption of the purchased Possession , unto the Praise of his Glory , Eph. 1.13.14 . So mark here , The Holy Spirit of Promise was the Earnest of their Inheritance , until the Redemption , &c. ( And grieve not the Holy Spirit , whereby you are s●aled until the Day of Redemption , Eph. 4.30 . But with R. G. the Day of his Redemption was long since over , many years before he was Born ; he was redeemed and justified above Sixteen Hundred Years ago ; but then he must suppose or conceit himself an Elect person before that , or else the whole World is as much justified as he ) See how plainly these Scriptures refute R. G. as also , God purchased his Church with his own Blood , Acts 20.28 . So his chosen People were a purchas'd Possession , God was in Christ reconciling the World unto himself ; but the Saints ( who are hi● Friends ) are actually reconcil'd , he hath fulfill'd it in them . And now because those terms in Scripture , relating to Christ and his Works , are mis-understood , and p●rverted by many Professors and Priests , as this man hath done , I shall state them with the natural and simple sense thereof , as followeth , viz. Jesus , a Saviour , who saveth from sin , of whom it was said by the Angel , Thou shalt call his Name Jesus , for he shall save his People from their sins , Mat. 1.21 . Christ , is Anointed ; for he was anointed with Power from on High. Propitiation , a Sacrifice well-pleasing , which is to purge away sin , and ( in Scripture sence ) to make nigh to God * and which imports Forgiveness , Reconciliation , Favour , Mercy , Kindness , &c. as Propitious is favouable , merciful , &c. Sacrifice , an Oblation or Offering , which is to Consecrate or make Holy. Reconciliation , an Agreement , a Peace-making between them that have been Friends , and afterwards Foes , a setting at One. Covenant , an Accord , Agreement , a Contract , a Treaty , a Condition , &c. Attonement , Peace , Quietness , &c. between them that are reconcil'd or in mutual Friendship . Redemption , a Ransoming , Buying again , Rescuing or Recovering such as were under Bondage , or sold under Slavery . Salvation , a Saving , Preserving , or a making Safe from the hand of an Enemy , Destroyer , or Oppressor , &c. Imputation , an Ascribing , Attributing to , laying to the Charge of , or an Accounting , Reckoning , or Thinking . Justification , a making Righteous , Just , Upright , Vertuous , Good , Perfect , &c. and also , an Adjudging , Pronouncing , and Sentencing one that is made Righteous to be so . Now if Professors come not to feel and experience these things ( or works of Christ ) fulfill'd within them , they are but meer empty Professors and Talkers of them , without the true Life and Power of Christianity and true Religion . Certain Scriptures , touching the Saviour , Redeemer , Redemption , and Salvation , &c. Thou shalt know no God but me ; for there is no Saviour besides me , Hos. 13.4 . Deut. 6.4 . I , even I , am the Lord , and besides me there is no Saviour . Isa. 43 11. and 44.6 , 8. and 45.15 . And all Flesh shall know , that I the Lord am thy Saviour and Redeemer , the Mighty One of Jacob , chap. 49.26 . and 60.16 . Jer. 50.34 . I will mention the Loving-kindness of the Lord , &c. for he said , Surely they are my Children , People that will not Lye : So he was their Saviour , Isa. 63.7 , 8. Thy People shall be all Righteous , &c. chap. 60.21 . O the Hope of Israel , the Saviour thereof in time of Trouble , Jer. 14 8. He Saved them from the hand of him that hated them , and redeem'd them from the hand of the Enemy ( by this he made his Power known ) Psa. 106.8 , 10 , 21. With the Lord there is plentious Redemption , and he shall Redeem Israel from all his Iniquities , Psa. 130.7 , 8. See also Psa. 19.14 . and 20.6 . and 28.8 . and 34.22 . and 49.8 . Draw nigh unto my Soul , and Redeem it , Psa. 69.18 . He shall Redeem their Souls from Deceit and Violence , and precious shall their Souls be in his Sight , Psa. 72.14 . The Redemption of their souls is precious , Psa. 49.8 . And Mary said , My soul doth Magnifie the Lord , and my spirit hath rejoyced in God my Saviour , Luk. 1.46 , 47. see also , 1 Tim. 1.1 . & 2.3 . & 4.10 . Tit. 1.3 . & 2.10 . God so loved the World , that he gave his only begotten Son , that whosever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting Life , Joh. 3.16 . Our Saviour Jesus Christ , gave himself for us , that he might Redeem us from all Iniquity , and purifie unto himself a peculiar People , Tit. 2.14 . But after that the Kindness and Love of God our Saviour , towards man appeared , not by Works of Righteousness which we have done but according to his Mercy he Saved us , by the washing of Regeneration , and renewing of the Holy Ghost , which he shed on us aboundantly , through Jesus Christ our Saviour , Tit. 3.4 , 5 , 6. I and my Father are one , Joh. 10.30 . Jesus of Nazareth was a man approv'd of God by Miracles , and Wonders , and Signs , which God did by him , Acts 2.22 . The Son can do nothing of himself , but what he seeth the Father do , Joh , 5.19 , 30. We have seen , and do testifie , that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the World , 1 Joh. 4.14 . He is the Propitiation for our sins , and not for ours only , but also for the sins of the whole World , 1 Joh. 2.2 . Lord , thou wilt ordain Peace for us ; for thou also hast wrought all our Works in us , Isa. 26.12 . The Nature of Christianity , in the true Light , &c. In Answer to Robert Gordon . The first Part. The Title of R. G's . Pamphlet . CHristianity Vindicated ; or the Fundamental Truths of the Gospel : Concerning the Person of Christ , and Redemption , through Faith in him maintained . Answer , These are covertly , and deceitful Insinuations , implying that we deny Christianity , or deny Redemption through Faith in Christ , both which are very false ; for it is Antichristian Sin pleasing-doctrines which oppose and slight the inward Work of Christ in his People , that we oppose : And what we have said on this account , are neither Cavils nor groundless Exceptions , as we are falsly accus'd . R. G. to the Reader saith , Having lately published a Book , intituled , A Testimony to the true Saviour — Concurring with the Voices ●f all the Prophets and Apostles , to the Man Christ Jesus , &c. Answ. Nay , it was a heap of Confusion , which could add nothing to the credit of the Prophets nor Apostles , if they had been question'd ; but their Testimonies of the Man Christ Jesus , we never doubted of , nor oppos'd , as wickedly and falsly he hath mis-represented us . R. G. And unto Reconciliation , Justification , and Redemption , as already in being in him , purchased , compleated , and perfected with God for Sinners , by the price of his whole , entire , and perfect Obedience — in his crucified Body without us , to be made effectual by the operations of his Spirit , &c. Answ. That perfect Reconciliation and Redemption , &c. were in being both in God and his Son for us , while Enemies , we assert , but not receiv'd by us till we were made Friends ; and so reconci'd in our Minds by the Spirit or Word of Reconciliation operating within . But ( R. G. ) to thy matter , I query first , How , and of whom Reconciliation , Justification , &c. are purchas'd for Sinners , and so perfected whilst not made effectual by the workings of the Spirit within ? Or are men justified , when no good is wrought in them by any Light or Spirit whatsoever , as thy Doctrine was , and is ? And thou shouldst have plainly spoke-out , and told us what thou meanest by the words , Purchased with God ; whether in the sence of Satisfaction ; and Payment to God in our stead , as thy Tutors , the Presbyterians and Independants hold , yea , or nay ? And whether the Love , which is infinite , was not the cause of his sending his Son into the World , that the World through him might be sav'd ; and so the coming and manifestation of Christ in his Life , Works , Doctrines , Sufferings , tasting Death for every man , &c. Effects of the Love of God to Mankind , yea , or nay ? And tell us plainly where doth the Scripture say , That Justification and Redemption are purchas'd of God , and perfected without us , by the crucified Body , when no good is wrought within ? And if all these things are so purchas'd and perfected without for Sinners , or the whole World , what must be the Spirit 's operation within ? And how then can God condemn any for sin , if thy Doctrine be true ? If thou sayst it is because of their Unbelief , then this hath respect unto the Work of the Spirit and Faith within , without which men cannot be sav'd nor justify'd ( wherein thou , R. G. dost plainly contradict thy self ) whatever thou , or carnal Professors , imagine of your Justification , &c. being purchas'd and perfected without you , you are not yet purchas'd nor redeem'd from Iniquity , nor from a deceitful spirit ; wherein thou hast shew'd thy pretended love to be Enmity and Falshood , against us and the Truth , as will further appear . R. G. That there are some , pretending to be Teachers among them — under the disguise of the names of Light and Power within , thereby bring in damnable Errors , to pervert the Faith — among whom these four Men have numbred themselves , by their voluntary opposition against the plain Truth , left us upon record by the Prophets and Apostles , and testified by me , &c. Answ. It s our Testimony of the Light and Power within , that perplexeth thee , and such dark and lifeless Professors as thou art , who are in the spirit of Enmity : And why dost thou Envy and Belye us , call'd Quakers , or those for whom Christ died , as well for thy self ? If we had oppos'd the plain Truths of the Prophets and Apostles , in Scripture ( as thou hast most falsly accus'd us ) it had been thy part and duty to have prov'd the Scriptures true , if we had denied them ; and not to impose thy impertinent Tautollogies upon us , which thy Book is fill'd with ; if we were either Jews , Turks , Jesuits , or Papists , which in any thing deny'd plain Scripture , thou takest but a mean course to convince us , by thy imposing and begging the Question : But hadst thou dealt plainly , and only brought us plain Scripture , without thy Confusion , Corrupt Glosses , and Sin-pleasing Fancies , we should not have had these Controversies , nor such mudled stuff , and ramblement to deal withal , as thou hast divulg'd . And as to thy speaking of two Gospel Mysteries , ( viz. ) What was wrought in Christ , and finished and perfected as once by that Sacrifice of his crucified Body ; and the second of what is to be wrought by Christ in us , &c. Answ. Truly to know Christ crucified , and the Fellowship of his Sufferings , and Conformity to his Death ; as also , his Vertue as a Sacrifice by eating his Flesh and drinking his Blood , is a Mystery which none but the Children of the Light know and receive , who only receive Life thereby ; and such are they that see and walk in the New and Living Way , which he consecrated through the Va●l ( that is to say ) his Flesh ; and so witness the New Covenant , or Testament , which he the Testator , confirm'd through his Death ; who in the Body , offer'd up himself once for all , to end the many Offerings , and often sacrificing under the Law ( that Once is oppos'd to the many ) He offer'd up ●imself by the eternal Spirit , to break down the Partition-Wall between Jew and Gentile , and to abolish that Enmity that w●s between them , in putting an end to that figurative Dispensation , wherein the Jews gloried against the Gentiles , that they might be reconcil'd in one Body , and by the Spirit come to have the Mystery of Christ within , and Fellowship of the Gospel reveal'd . Now this was not to indulge any in sin , or enmity thereof in themselves ; nor yet for any to plead that they are redeem'd , and perfectly justified at once ▪ without them , while in their sins , and no good wrought within them ; for in that state they are so far from receiving the Attonement , that they are Enemies to Christ and to his Cross , and guilty of his Body and Blood , not discerning either : And this is thy state , who thinkest thy self justify'd ( before thou wast born , above sixteen hundred Years since ) and yet art in thy sins , pretending to the Work of Christ in thee ( when otherwhiles thou reckonest all done without thee ) but now sayst , It is daily doing in many Bodies , till Mortality be swallowed up of Life : And when dost thou think that will be ? Will it be on this side the Grave , yea , or nay ? Dost thou not expect a perfest Sanctification , and Deliverance from Sin till after thou art deceas'd ? If thou dost not , how art thou in the Method of the Gospel , and how art thou perfectly justify'd ? It s they that are wash'd and sanctify'd that are justify'd . As to the Sufferings of Christ without , though the Scripture-Relation of them be true , yet thou hast but a Traditional and Historical Faith thereof , with some particular Conceits and wrong Constructions , whilst thou coverst thy self in thy sins with a Profession thereof : And so art upon a false Bottom , not sanctified nor justified by the Spirit of God , which is the immediate Cause of both unto them that believe in the Name of his Son Christ Jesus , whose sufferings for Sinners was two-fold , both inward and outward ; he bore the Burthen , and Weight of the sins of the World. And whereas thou wouldst have G. K. to prove , That Christ doth bear Sins but as he did bear them in his Crucified Body , p. 5. To which I say , He was a Lamb slain from the Foundation of the World ; the Righteous Seed hath suffer'd through all Ages , by the seed of Rebellion ; there is a spiritual suffering , as well as there was a bodily suffering ; his Soul was made an Offering for sin ; he bore the sin of many , and made intercession for the Transgressors , Isa. 53. And said the Apostle , The Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with Groanings , which cannot be uttered , Rom. 8.26 . And do not these Groanings imply an inward and spiritual suffering ? And was not Christ spiritually crucified in Sodom and Aegypt ? And that he doth suffer , besides that in his crucified Body at Jerusalem , is evident to them that know the Fellowship of his Sufferings , though not to thee ; as the Apostle Paul witnessed , when he said , Who now rejoyce in my Sufferings for you , and fill up that which is behind of the Afflictions of Christ in my Flesh , for his Body's sake , which is the Church , Col. 1.24 . And whereas thou accusest the Author of the Book intituled , The great Mystery of the Great Whore , with saying , That the Soul is infinite in it self , without beginning , more then all the World , a part of God , of his Beeing — coming from God , and returning to God again , the Power of God , &c. And addest , Doth a Part of God infinite , need to be saved , & c ? And in p. 27. on the same occasion sayst , This is the very Root of Rantism &c. Reply , We have alwayes distinquish'd between the Soul of Man , and that which saves it ; and between the soul as in death under transgression , and as quickened and united unto God by his Son ; as is plain to be seen in that Book accus'd by thee , where mention is , Of the Soul being in Death in Transgression , and man's spirit not sanctified , p. 91. And of the Soul being immortal , and living in the Covenant of God , where Christ is the Bishop of it ; it being in the hand that saves from Transgression : And that Christ brings up the soul to God , whereby they come to be one Soul , page 129. In which state the soul is in Union with God , as he that is joyn'd to the Lord is one Spirit : And they that are Baptiz'd into Christ have put on Christ , through whom they come to obtain the answer and end of his Prayer , ( viz. ) That they all may be one , as thou Father art in me , and I in thee ; that they also may be one in us , &c. And the Glory which thou gavest me , I have given them ; that they may be one , as we are one , John 17.21 , 22 , 23. And it s said , That Man is the Image and Glory of God , 1 Cor , 11.7 . Now how absurd would it be to question , Doth the Image and Glory of God need to be saved ? For man is called so , he partaking of that Image and Glory ; and so it is no otherwise intended of the soul ( as to Divine , Immortal , and Infinite ) then as by participation of that Life and Light , which is divine and infinite , wherewith the soul is cloth'd and adorn'd in the renewed state . But as to its being the Power of God , a Part of God ; I find not these words so asserted by the Author of the said Book , nor any thing ( like them ) with that general intent and consequence , as strained by this Accuser ; for the Power of God is that which saves the soul , and it is the soul ( as in the Power ) that is unchangable : And God is not to be divided into parts and particulars ( he is not divisable nor separable ) It was the Priests words , That the soul is a part of the Divine Essence , 〈◊〉 in the said Book , pag. 227. And one of them confessed , That there was a kind of Infiniteness in the soul , pag. 90. And in p. 68. it is said , God breathed into man the Breath of Life , and he became a Living Soul ; for that which came out from God is the Cause that man became a Living Soul : And is not this of God , & c ? Now Infinite , Divine , &c. is no otherwise intended to the soul , then as relating to the Breath of Life ( which immediately came from God , by which the soul lives and subsists in its Beeing ) which ( figuratively ) some have put for ( or called ) the Soul , as being the Soul or Life of it , by which it lives and is upholden , whether under a sense of Anguish or Peace : And this hath no accord with Rantism , but is a Testimony against it and thee too . And it had been well for thee , to have cleared thy self of Rantism , ere thou hadst charged it on others ; for , indeed thy doctrine hath a direct tendency to it ; as , That men are perfectly justified and reconciled in the sight of God , G●d with them , and they with him , while Whoring , Killing , Stealing , Cursing , Roaring , Ranting ; yea , that Ra●ters ( if all , while En●mies , wicked , no good wrought in them , &c. ) are perfectly justified , reconciled with God , and G●d with them : Doth not this tend directly to strengthen the Ranters in their Rantism ? And as touching G. F's . words ; the places have been look'd , and it s found that thou hast disorder'd them , and left out what was necessary ●o clear their sense , and his Intent . R. G. If their Consciences accuse them not , neither have I , who have not so much as mention'd them . Answ. Our Consciences do not accuse us , but thou hast covertly and deceitfully , when thou didst not mention us by name ; and now hast openly revil'd us , and wrong'd our Principles , contrary to that love so much pretended by thee . So now thou appearest in thy own shape , and for all thy shuffling and shifting in this matter , I appeal to thy own Conscience , if thou didst not chiefly mean the Quakers in thy other Pamphlet , more than Turks or Jews , Arians , Papists , Socinians , or Ranters ? Will these Pretences excuse thee ? And as to thy not finding a plain consistency in our Principles , nor a unanimous reception of them by every Person among us ; no doubt but thou hadst us'd thy skill to make an inconsistency in our Principles ( but art disappointed ) and to stumble the weak by thy unde●ly Insinuations against us : But I ask , What persons among us are so far from the reception of our Principles , as to receive thine , or own thy spirit ? R. G. What an inconsistency is there between thy words , and this work , published by you four against my Testimony , and that not by the youngest among you . Answ. Thou knowest in thy own Conscience that it was G. K. that chiefly answer'd thy Book , A. R. and G. L. were little concern'd in it ; and it was thy irreconcilable Contradictions that I chiefly took notice of : What a silly ambitious Boaster art thou then , to seek to make the World believe , that four of us were so deeply engag'd against thee , and thy self to be such an eminent Champion against us ? Thy Testimony is so much of it false and confus'd , that many more then us four , would have testified ag●inst it ; and what we did , it was not so much to wage War with thee , as to answer the Truth in our selves , and clear it in general . However , through thy Ambition thou shewest thy Vapouring spirit and Ostentation against four o● us ; the least of which , yea , the youngest Child of Truth may see thy weakness . Whereas G. K. said , Though Redemption is wrought within by the Spirit of Christ. To which thou sayst , Here I take notice of thy slighting that great Work of man's Redemption , as already purchas'd by Christ for Sinners , by that one Sacrifice of his crucified Body . Answ. We do not slight that one Sacrifice , nor the Dignity thereof , by confessing to Redemption , as wrought within by the Spirit of Christ , if thou wilt own Redemption in the true sense thereof ; as Christ gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from all Iniquity , whi●h is not remov'd without his spiritual Operation within . But thou contradictest thy Tutors th● Presbyterians , and Independants , in saying , That man's Redemption is purchas'd by his Crucified Body ; for they say , He did not satisfie as Man simply , but as God and Man , or as God Man ( which is all one as to say , that God satisfied and paid God , or that God purchased Redemption of himself ) for they say , That his Suffering being finite could not purchase an infinite Reward ; for nothing but an infinite Price could procure that ; there must be an equiv●lency between the Price , and the thing purchas'd , &c. Whereas it was the Love and Good-will of God , to send his Son into the World , to redeem man from Sin and Corruption , which is a work inwardly effected ; and Christ giving himself a Ransom for all , was for a Testimony of Gods Love to all . R. G. The Operations of the Spirit of Holiness , being necessary for bringing the Believer into Vnion and Friendship with God , &c. p. 8. Answ. This confuteth much of thy work ; for then men are not in a reconcil'd state , while out of that Friendship ; for where the mind is reconciled to God , it is brought out of the enmity and evil works , into union with God ; and so there is mutual union between him and the Creature . R. G. He slew the Enmity in himself ; God reconcil'd us to himself , through the Death of his Son , while we were yet Enemies ; so no qualification wrought in us by any spirit whatsoever , in order to the perfecting of the Purchase and paying the Ransom for Sinners , pag. 8. Answ. Here is still thy old Story , with thy additional Excuse of purchasing and payment to lessen the dignity and worth of the Spirit of God , and its Qualification and Work within ●s ; as if God did not value the same Spirit of his , and its work in his People now , as formerly in Christ and his Followers ; whenas it is the same Spirit by which Jesus Christ offered up himself a Lamb without Spot to God , and that rais'd him up from the dead , which also quickeneth true Believers : But thou preferest the Suffering of the Body before the Spirit , and layest all the stress upon it , as the only cause of Redemption , Justification , &c. and the Works of the Spirit but as the Effect thereof : How darkly hast thou herein consulted ( and set the Flesh above that Spirit , which is the cause of Spiritual Effects ) for without the eternal Spirit , his Body could not be offer'd nor rais'd , nor the Saints quickened . And concerning his Slaying the enmity in Himself , as thou wordst it ; and misconstrues Eph. 2.15 , for thy sinful design against the worth of the Operations and Qualifications of the Spirit of Holiness within : Christ had no enmity or sin in himself to slay ; but the enmity which he abolisht in his Flesh , was the Law of Commandments contain'd in Ordinances , for to make in himself of twain One new Man , Eph. 2.15 . ( or that both Jews and Gentiles might be reconcil'd in one Body . ) Now the new Man hath the inward Qualifications , and Fruits of the Spirit , which thou want●st ; and therefore art not in a reconcil'd state , nor actually reconcil'd in thy self , who reckonest all done , purchas'd , and paid in thy stead , at once without thee , while no qualification nor good is wrought in thee by the Spirit of God ; and yet thou must be qualified with Faith , and both Reconciliation , Justification , and Redemption must be effected or fulfilled in thee , or else thou canst not be sav'd , according to thy own Concession . What Confusion are you still in ? R. G. I say , That the Works wrought for us by Christ in his crucified Body , is the first Mystery , the Foundation of all our Mercies , the ground of the possibility of having any Works wrought in us by the Spirit of God , tending to our being made like unto him ; pag. 8. Answ. The Ground and Cause of all our Mercies is the infinite Love of God , in which he sent his Son , whose Works for us and Example to us , were Effects and Tokens of the Love of God to man , and not the ground and purchasing cause thereof ( nor as by way of Payment and ridgid Satisfaction to vindictive Justice , as Presbyters call it ) as if Christ were more kind to man , and his Love more infinite , than his Father's , which is blasphemous ; like some of the Popish Fryars , that said , The Son was better then the Father . And what better doth thy doctrine imply , then that the Son's Works , wrought without us , are the previous procuring purchasing Cause of the Law of God to us , while Sinners , pag. 22. On this erronious stuff depends much of thy Book ; thou mightest as well say , That God and his Love had a Beginning , or were inferior to the Man Christ , as that Christ's Works without were the previous ( or foregoing ) Cause of God's Love to us : How then is his Love infinite in it self , and free to us , and the Cause of sending his Son , Joh. 3.16 . And darest thou say , That God had not Love to M●nkind before he sent his Son in the Flesh ? Or that the Love of God was not the previous Cause of his so sending his Son , and of Christ's Testimony and Works in the dayes of his Flesh ? R. G. The Works wrought in us , who Believe , being but the Consequence and Effect of what he did for us , even when Sinners , pag. 9. Ans. If but the Consequence , then men must begin first to learn and believe the History or outward Relation of Christ's Sufferings , and not in the Spirit ; whereas the True and Well-beginning of the Churches of Christ , was in the Spirit , which is Life ; and then I ask , If none can be saved nor sanctified , but they who have that outward Relation , or History ? When as it s confessed , that the Operations of the Spirit of Holiness within do bring the Believer into Union and Friendship with God : And is no● th●s absolute Reconciliation or Agreement with God ? So Justification ( making Righteous , and accepted with God ) from thos● things , from which we could not be justified by ●he Law of Moses , and Redemption from Iniquity , which are Eff●cted within , are the Effects and immedi●te Consequences of the Operations of God ( by his Son or Power ) within , who hath ordain'd Pe●ce for us ; For , ( note that ) he h●th wrought all our works in us , Isa. 26 ▪ 12. A Testimony whereof , and of the Love of God to us , was even Christ's outward Manifestation , Works , and Suffering in the Flesh , in which he directed to the Spirit that quickens to God. R. G. It hath been the work of the Devil and his Agents , to darken this Doctrine , of the justification of Sinners through the Death of Christ , as already perfected with God , &c. pa. 9. Answ. By this the Reader may understand thy sense of Justification , That Sinners are perfectly justified by the Death of Christ ( even while Sinners and Enemies ) But thou shouldst have defin'd what Justification is ; for if thy Doctrine be true , all the World is in a justified State ( seeing Christ died for all ) while actually Sinners , Polluted , and Unjust ; only it remains for them to believe it is perfectly done without them , and imputed to them ; so they may conceit themselves at peace with God , in their sins : A pleasant Doctrine to make Hypocrites , like thy self , who but in the same Page hast confessed , That Christ died for our Sins , and rose again for our Justification ; and that the Apostles intreated men to be reconcil'd to God : But how agrees this , with Sinners being perfectly justified without them , by his Death , when no good is wrought within them ? Did he so justifie Sinners by his Death , and after rise again , either to add to their Justification , or do it over again ? What a Laborinth art thou now in ! But have not some of thy Brethren confessed , That Sanctification and Justification are inseparable Companions ? R. G. But thou , as doth thy Partner G. W. jumbles these things confusedly together — speaking of the works wrought for us by Christ , as lame and imperfect — not as having finish the Work given him to do , &c. pag. 10. Answ. Thou belyest us ; for we affirm , That Christ's Obedience and Works ( even in the d●yes of his Flesh ) were all perfect , and that he therein finisht so much as the Father sent him to do , having left a perfect Example to be followed ; being a perfect Captain , Leader , and Conquerer through all his Sufferings , and by the eternal Spirit offered himself a Lamb without Spot to God : But wherein we testifie , That a meer Belief of his Works and Sufferings without , are not sufficient to save man , but he must know his spiritual Works wrought within , and be saved by the washing of Regeneration , &c. this is no deeming his Works without either lame or imperfect : For thou thy self sayest , I do not say that he so finished it for us , as if no more were to be done within us by his Spirit . Now thou wouldst think much , if we , or any , should accuse thee , for rendring Christ's Works for us as lame and imperfect : Hast thou done by us , as thou wouldst be done unto ? Who also hast granted to the Operations of the Spirit within . The living Testimony of Christ Jesus , confirmed by him , through his Sacrifice and Suffering in the flesh ( which we truly own ) is a Mystery , to be known and fulfilled within , where the Righteousness of Faith is experienc'd , which brings the true Believers ( in the Light ) into the Fellowship of Christ's Sufferings ( which were both inward and outward ) and makes them conformable to his Death ( the Spirit baptizing them into it ) a Mystery thou art yet a Stranger to . R. G. Vnwilling to be manifested in the Light , not telling us what that further influence and service was more then being a bare Example , pag. 11. Answ. Jesus Christ , in the dayes of his Suffering , was not alone in his Testimony ; but as he said , I and my Father , &c. and I can of mine own self do nothing . He was endu'd with Power from on High , whereby h●s Coming , Offering , and Testimony had a divine Influence upon the hearts of them that knew and receiv'd him ( and still hath . ) And they who attain to the Blood of Sprinkling , to have their Consciences thereby sprinkled and purged from dead works , and to eat of the Flesh and drink of the Blood of the Son of Man , do truly experience the End of his coming , who hath given his ●lesh for the Life of the World ( and Himself a Ransom for all , for a Testimony in due time ) which things are Mysteries , hid from all Hypocrites , and such who are dead in their sins . R. G. Which of all the Prophets or Apostles ever so wrote of a Ransom , an Attonement , a Propitiation , a Price of our Redemption , as of a Work to be done in us , as it was in Christ ; or that in these Christ was an Example to us , that they might be over again effected in us ? — And which of all those Holy Men ever so wrote of a Believer's being brought through the Ministration of Death , Condemnation , and Wrath , after the Example of the Man Christ , & c ? pag. 12. Answ. Thou hast perverted our words by adding [ as it was in Christ ] and hast also shew'd thy wonderful Darkness ; for though we do not suffer in all Points after the same manner that Christ did , yet it follows not that he was not a real Example of Obedience and Humility in his Suffering : But how contradictory to thy own confession ( hast thou reasoned ) which is , That Reconciliation , Justification , and Redemption , are to be made e●fectual by the workings of his Spirit , in all who through Faith receive the Attonement : And did not the Prophet say to the Lord , Thou hast wrought all our Works in us ? Isa. 26. And because the Chastizement of our Peace was upon Christ , does it therefore follow , That we must never be chastiz'd ? This is like thy doctrine , Redemption was in Christ , therefore not to be done in us ; Christ passed through Death , therefore we must not be crucified , nor perfectly dead to sin in this Life : Is not this the very tendency or sum of much of thy Doctrine ? But is it not Sin , and its Enmity within , which Christ came to redeem and reconcile man from ? Thou art yet in Death , far from being redeem'd , or thus reconcil'd ; who hast not known the Ministration of Death , Condemnation , and Wrath ; but questionest the Believers passing through it [ though it be a plain Truth , that they did ( and many do ) so pass ] they passed from Death to Life , and through the Law , became dead unto the Law : And did not the Commandment which was ordain'd to Life , work Death in the Apostle Paul , who also knew the Terrors of the Lord ? But thou hast in thy Imaginations fram'd up a more easie way to Heaven ( or Redemption , &c. ) then through the Ministration of Judgment ( through which Sion is redeem'd , and her Converts with Righteousness ) , or of Death and Condemnation , which in its time is glorious , which is fulfilled , where the Righteousness of the Law is fulfilled within , even in them that walk not after the Flesh but after the Spirit . R. G. This new-coyn'd M●stery of Faith , in the Light in your Conscience , or within you , as your Saviour , ●nd Obedience thereunto to be done and perfected in your bodies , &c. pag. 12. Answ. It s evident , that the true Light and Perf●ction ( by it and in it ) were ever oppos'd by Darkness and its Children , which cannot comprehend the Light of Christ within : And this is Darkness to be felt , that scornfully calls Faith in the Light , a New-coyn'd Mystery : But Jesus Christ ( the true Light that enlightens every man ) gave a better Testimony of the Light , when he said , Believe in the Light , that ye may be Children of the Light , Joh. 12.35 , 36. And so did his Ministers in these words , God , who commanded the Light to shine out of Darkness , hath shined in our hearts , to give the Light of the Knowledge of the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ , 2 Cor. 4.6 . And if we walk in the Light , as he is in the ●ight , we have Fel●owship one with another , and the Blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin , 1 John 2.7 . And the Anointing , which ye have receiv'd of him abideth in you — and even as it hath taught you , ye shall abide in him , verse 27. See also 2 Pet. 1.19 . and Rom. 2.7 , 10 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. And hath not the Grace of God , which brings Salvation , appear'd unto all men ? Titus 2.11 . See how manifestly this man hath oppos'd both Christ and his Apostles plain Testimonies , which are on the behalf of his Light within , and B●lief in it , and Obedience to it ; in order to Perfection , Cleansing from all Sin , or a perfecting Holiness in the Fear of God : Are these New-coyn'd Mysteries ? Nay , they are Gospel Truths , which stand against the Devil and his Darkness . R. G. We , who since we believ'd receiv'd that Attonement , shall after our bodily death be rais'd from the Grave , and be made Partakers of that Salvation , which through Faith and Hope we wait for , while in the Body , pag. 13. Answ. Thou puttest Salvation at a great distance , shewing thy self yet in the Grave of Corruption : Is this thy meaning of Salvation , that thou hopest and waitest for , while in the body to be rais'd from the Grave after thy bodily death ? What strange Nonsensical Language is this ? * And was this the Salvation that Christ's second Appearance was lookt for to effect , Heb. 9.28 . If thou livest and diest in thy Sins , and be'st not saved from them , nor rais'd out of them here , thy Resurrection will be miserable ( and thy State sad hereafter ) even that of the Unjust , which is to Condemnation . R. G. It pleased the Lord to bruise him , he was ( he hath left out [ we did esteem him ] smitten of God — the Chastizements of our Peace were upon him — ( then he adds ) This man should thus answer the Prophet Isaiah , Is that divine Justice to take Vengeance on , Wound , Smite , bruise the Innocent , and let the Guilty go free ? Answ. The Prophet said , he was despis'd , and we esteem'd him not ; surely he hath born our Griefs , and carried our Sorrows ; yet we did esteem him Stricken , Smitten of God , and Afflicted ; but he was wounded for our Transgressions , &c. Isa. 53.3 , 4 , 5. There are still those that reject and dis-esteem Christ , and that esteem him smitten or plagued of God , and even to have under-gone the Wrath and Vengeance of his Father in their stead , to acquit them from Punishment ( though they live and dye in their Sins , not expecting Salvation till after their Decease ) Whereas 1st , God had never any such Wrath nor Revenge , against his Innocent Son , to execute upon him ; nor will he so clear the Guilty in their Sins : 2d , It pleasing the Lord to bruise him , was neither in Wrath , nor to take Vengeance on him ; nor yet actually or immediately by himself to bruise him , but permissively ; for though he was deliver'd by the determinate Council of God , yet he suffer'd wicked hands to afflict and put Christ to death , who did bear and suffer under the Load and Oppression of the Sins and Iniquities of the World ( yea , he hath born our Griefs and Sorrows ) the Iniquity of all being so made to meet upon him . But a gross sense hast thou given to the Prophet's words ; for neither were these Sufferings of Christ that the Guilty might go free ( for that divine Justice admits not of , as to condemn the Righteous and justifie the Wicked , that 's an abomination ) neither are God's Chastizements by way of Revenge , nor a taking Vengeance on his Innocent Son , who is the Delight of his Soul , the Son of his Love : Chastizement and Revenge are two differing things ; and so are Forgiveness , and the Rigour of the Law. R. G. Jesus Christ is a Propitiation for the Sins of the whole World : may I not thence in truth assert him to have been a Propitiation for all Sins past , present , and to come ? pag. 15. Answ. That Christ is the Propitiation for the Sins of the whole World , I own ( and that his Blood , that cleanseth from all Sin , bears record in the Earth ) but thy words [ for all Sin , past , present , and to come ] are added to the Scripture by thy Teachers the Presbyterians and Independants , and have given much liberty to sin ; contrary to the Apostles words , who saith , ( of Christ ) Whom God hath set forth to be a Propitiation through Faith in his Blood , to declare his Righteousness fo● the Remission of Sins that are past , through the Forbearance of God , Rom. 3. He does not say , for the remission of sins past , present , and to come ; nor that men are perfectly justified and redeem'd by the Sacrifice of Christ , who commit sin all their dayes ( which is imply'd in thes● words [ for all sins past , pres●nt , and to come ] whereas his b●ing a Sacrifice for the sins of the whole World , is intended for the sins past ( of every man ) committed before Believing or Conversion , or otherwise , through Weakness after Conviction ; not for wilful sins against Knowledge ; if we sin wilfully after that we have receiv'd the Knowledge of the Truth , there remains no more a Sacrifice for sin , but a certain fearful looking for of Judgment and fiery Indignation , which shall devour the Adversaries , Heb. 10.26 , 27. R. G. But that these Works of the Spirit , wrought in us , are the Attonement , the Propitiatory Sacrifice , or any part of it , or the Ground and Cause of our being Redeem'd ; that I deny , pag. 17. Answ. What 's Attoneing , but making Peace and Quietness ; and Redeeming , but a delivering from Sin and Bondage , or rescuing from the Enem● ? And must the Spirit of God have no Hand or part in this ? Or he in his working within , be no cause hereof ? ( strange doctrine ) Mayst thou not herein as well exclude Christ as his Spirit ( who are One ? ) Whereas the work of Righteousness shall be Peace , and the effect of Righteousness Quietness and Assurance forever , Isa. 32.17 . And the Fruit of the Spirit is Love , Joy , Peace , &c. Gal. 5.22 . It is the Spirit that both quickens , sanctifies , and justifies , and leads the true Believer into all Truth : And what 's this short of Redemption ( I pray you ? ) if it be a freeing from Iniquity ? But these inward works of the Spirit we dare not call the Propitiatory Sacrifice , as falsly thou imply'st ; but he ( Christ ) the Worker , who is made unto us Wisdom , Righteousness , Sanctification , and Redemption ; and is not this spiritually , o● by his Spirit ? And are not his Works in his People as acceptable to God as ever ( being true in him and in us ) from the dignity of him that worketh them ? R. G. God hath purchas'd his Church by his own Blood : G. W. his confus'd doctrine renders this Purchase as a work daily doing in every Generation , in many Bodies , as every man comes to be renew'd by the Spirit — a fine dress of new coyn'd words , pag. 17. Answ. Whoever comes to be a Member of the true Church , as he doth experience the Work of God , and his Will fulfilling in him , must feel and witness ( even in the Body ) a saving , purchasing , redeeming , and cleansing , &c. ( from Iniquity and Bondage ) by the Blood of God : And as it s written , After that the Kindness and Love of God our Saviour toward man appear'd , not by works of Righteousness , which we have done , but according to his Mercy he sav'd us , by the washing of Regeneration , and renewing of the Holy Ghost , Tit. 3.4 , 5. See now how contrary to plain Scripture and Saints Experience this R. G. hath argu'd ; and how the work of the Spirit , or inward Renewing and Washing , by it ( which saveth ) is slighted by him , and such as he , who never knew what it is to be purchas'd unto God , nor to be of his purchas'd Church : And they who are not yet come to be M●mbers of that Church , to know his Blood ( or Life ) both to sprinkle , sanctifie , and redeem them from sin and iniquity in their Bodies ( which have been defiled ) or else they are never like to be a true Church , nor to inherit God's Kingdom : And herein I do not bring a Sacrifice without Blood , nor without Spirit , nor like that of Rome , as blasphemously R. G. reproach'd me ; for the Spirit , and the Water , and the Blood do bear record in the Earth ; and except ye eat the Flesh and drink the Blood of Christ , ye have no Life in you ; and Jesus Christ the Righteous is the Propitiation , &c. Mark [ is ] in the time present ; he ●e●ains a Sacrifice ( his Soul being made an Offering ) for all that have not wilfully sinned against Knowledge , or that have not rejected Christ , and sinned out their day . R. G. Christ , as form'd within , th● Hope of Glory , dwelling in us by Faith , is manifest within us ; this Manifestation of him , as in us , thou calls the true Christ , our only Saviour , which the Apostles never did , pag. 19. Answ. Strange D●ctrine ! Did the Apostles preach a false Christ , or another then the true ? Was not Christ within , the Mystery ? And was not the ingrafted Word that which sav'd the Soul ? And he that hath not the Son hath not Life : How amply hath both Christ and his Apostles testified of his being in his chosen Ones ? And hast thou not in pag. 22. granted to his appearance in Believers , through Faith by his Spirit for Salvation ? Will this man never leave his Confu●ion , and self-Contradiction ? R. G. From Acts 2.36 . — God hath made that same Jesus ( adding ) ( not him that was manifest in that Body of Flesh , but the same Jesus ) whom ye have crucified , both Lord and Christ , pa. 19. Answ. What a strange Addition and Parenthesis is this ! that in effect denies him to be Christ , that was manifest in that Body of his : I ask if it be not true Language , to say , that Christ was manifest in the Flesh ; seeing that every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh [ mark that ] is not of God , but is the spirit of Antichrist ? R. G. And to him as Saviour , and to this Way of his Appearance in Believers , thro●gh Faith by his Spirit for Salvation , and Remission of sins through him , I have in plain words testified , and you have oppos'd , p. 22. Answ. Nay , thou hast rather oppos'd it , and not we ; for we own , that God our Saviour , according to his Mercies , sav'd us , by the washing of Regeneration and renewing of the holy Ghost , Tit. 3.4 , 5 , 6. But thou thinkest Reconciliation , Justification , Redemption , and Salvation , are all compleated , perfected , and done at once , by the crucified Body without ; but now it must be by his Appearance in B●lievers , through Faith by his Spirit . See thy manifest Contradiction , viz. A perfect Justification and Redemption ( of Sinners ) without them , when no good is wrought in them : ( contra . ) But now it must be done by Christ's Appearance in Believers , through Faith by his Spirit . As also thou grantest , that his appearing the second time is without sin to Salvation : But when thinkest thou that must be , is it in this life or hereafter ? Thou sayest , that after the bodily death , you shall be rais'd out of the Grave , and made Partakers of that Salvatio● , pag. 13. 'T is strange the Salvation of Sinners , yea , of the whole World , as thy word is , should be compleated at once , above sixteen hundred Years since ( from whence thou shouldst look upon us , whom thou revilest and condemnest , to be in as good a state as thy self ) as yet to be so long after Death look'd for , how long , is not known to thee ; or dost thou look for Christ , as the Son of Mary , to appear outwardly , in a bodily Existence , to save thee , according to thy words , pag. 30 ? if thou dost , thou mayst look until thy eyes drop out , before thou wilt see such an Appearance of him . THE Second Part , Further asserting The Nature of Christianity , &c. WHereas G. K. did truly assert , that the works of the Law , excluded by the Apostle from Justification , is when the Law is done without Life or Spirit ; the first Covenant or Law coming before the Seed be rais'd ; so the Works not done in Christ the Seed , do not justifie ; and that the Righteousness by Faith , is when the Law is perform'd in us , by the Works of the Spirit , Righteousness in the Elect Seed , &c. To this R. Gordon answers , These are strange Vnscriptural Expressions , in effect renewing again the old Popish Trick . And further saith , Scriptures do indiffinitely exclude all Works , wrought in us or by us , as the Ground and Cause of our Justification with God , &c. Also addeth , That which requireth Works to be wrought in us , as the ground of our Righteousness and Justification , though wrought in and through the Spirit of God , whether by obedience to a Law without us , or in us before the Seed be raised , or in the elect Seed , is a Law of Works still ; This Doctrine is no other then the old Law-working spirit , he saith , pag. 23. Reply , The Ignorance of this scornful man , between the righteousness of the Law , as immitated by Self , and the Righteousness of Faith , and so between Death and Life , how obvious is it , and how manifestly contrary to Scripture , hath he here excluded all Work wrought in us , even those of the Spirit and of the elect Seed , from Justification ? Thus laying all the stress upon a suppos'd Purchase without ; or on the Suffering of Christ's Body without , in opposition to his Works within ; as if the Seed of God , and its Work in his Children , had lost the Dignity it had in Christ's Person : Oh sad doctrine ! and what gross Antinomianism , and liberty in sin , would this man lead People into ? In answer to whom I say , That God sent his Son in the likeness of sinful Flesh , and for sin condemned sin in the Flesh ; that the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfill'd in us , who walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit , Rom. 8.3 , 4. Now is not Christ fulfilling the Righteousness or Justness of the Law in us unto Justification ; it being both for the removing of sin , which he hath already condemn'd , and to make us Righteous ? And further , the Apostle saith , The Unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God ; and such were some of you , but ye are washed , b●t ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus , and by the Spirit of our God [ Mark that ] Was this any Popish Trick in the Apostle , to assert the Operation of the Spirit of God within for Justification ? 1 Cor. 6.9 , 10 , 11. And was not this in the Name of the Lord Jesus , who is the Elect , the promis'd Seed ? It appears this man is a Stranger , both to the elect Seed which abides in him that is born of God , and to the Righteousness thereof : And why doth he so Scoff at plain words of Truth , concerning the Seed being rais'd , and the Righteousness and Works thereof , which are those of the Spirit , those of Faith , and the Law thereof : But that a contrary seed , to wit , that of the Serpent , shows its dominion in him , and such as he is ; who like the old Antinomians and Lybertines , exclude the Works of the Spirit , and of the Elect Seed from Justification , ca●●ing it an old Law-working spirit , as the Antinomians use to do ? And what is his then , but an old Devil-working spirit ? For , can any be justif●ed , or made Righteous , without the work ●f the Spirit , or Seed of God within ? Is not the Seed sown to bring forth the Fruits of Righteousness ? And do not the Heavens drop down , and the Lord rain down Righteousness , that the Earth may open and bring forth Salvation , and that Righteousness may spring up together ? Isa. 45.8 . But you Sin-pleasing-Preachers , have neither sown in Tears ; have not gone forth Weeping , bearing pretious Seed ; nor reaped the Fruit thereof ; Your fallow ground is not plow'd up ; your Earth doth not open , either to receive or bring forth Righteousness in the seed or fruit thereof ; your Earth is hard and barren , Sin and Unrighteousness dwells in it , whereby you have caus'd the Heavens to be as Brass , and the Earth as Iron . Again , To oppose the Righteousness of the Elect Seed and Works of the Spirit within , as unto Justification , this R. G. scornfully tells us , That in plainer words they of Rome thus express , that the Apostle excludes from Justification , works , which we our selves do by our strength , without the help of the Grace of God ; not those Works we do by the aid of the Spirit . Now , if he hath truly represented what they of Rome say in this case , I must needs say , However they may hold that , and other Truths in Unrighteousness , that they of Rome have given a better definition of Justification , then R. Gordon hath , and in words at least shown a better esteem of the works of Grace , and of the Spirit of God , then he hath done , which Works are above those of self ; and surely the Apostle James did not exclude the Works of Faith , which are done by the aid of the Spirit of God from Justification , when he said , But wilt thou know , oh vain man , that Faith without Works is dead ; and was not our Father Abraham justified by works , when he had offered Isaac his Son upon the Alter , Jam. 2.20 , 21. Now was this an old Popish Trick , or the old Law-working spirit ( as he calls it ) No , sure it was before the Law was written ; and it was the Spirit of Faith , by which Abraham obey'd God ; for Abraham believ'd and it was imputed to him for Righteousness ; and he was called the Friend of God , Gal. 3.6 . Jam. 2 23. And they that are of Faith are of Abraham , and Partakers of the Righteousness of Faith , wherein they are justified and accepted of God : Now if I be exclaimed against herein , for P●pery , I must say , That wherein Papists hold any Truth ( though in unrighteousness ) I must not therefore deny it : If the Pope , and the Devil also , confess there is a God and a Christ ; must I therefore deny it , or be counted a Papist ? Nay , I must speak the Truth in Righteousness , however I be villified and scorned for it . Again , Our asserting the Righteousness of the Elect Seed rais'd in us , and Obedience of Faith therein for Justification and Acceptance with God : This doth neither deny nor oppose the Sacrifice of the crucified Body of the man Christ Jesus , nor yet blot out of our hearts either the Name or Remembrance of him , who is the great Propitiation for sin , as unjustly the Elect Seed , and its Righteousness within is accus'd , p. 23. For the Appearance of Christ within , and his Manifestation in Spirit , doth neither deny nor oppose his Manifestation or Suffering in the Flesh , but rather answereth and fulfilleth the Intent and End thereof ; for the outward Manifestation of the Son of God in the likeness of sinful Flesh , as it did condemn sin in the Flesh , so his inward Manifestation in Spirit doth destroy sin , worketh Justification and Redemption in them who obey his Light within ; for he is the Author of Eternal Salvation to as many as obey him ; and it is through the Obedience of the Spirit that the soul is purified unto unfained Love , &c. And if ye through the Spirit do mortifie the deeds of the Body , ye shall live : so here is Righteousness , Redemption , and Salvation receiv'd in Christ the Light , through obedience to his Light within ; however this be slightly stiled , A Law-working spirit , and falsly judged . A Principle agreeing with all the false Religions in the World , by this Antinomian , Presbyterian , Independant , R.G. p. 24. who thus further preacheth , as in the Name of the man Christ Jesus , Receive the Attonement , be ye Reconciled to God ; Believe and be saved , the Man Christ Jesus having already slain the Enmity in himself , the power of Sin , and Death , and the Law , for us : And thus he is our Saviour , &c. To which I say , These Exhortations , Receive 〈◊〉 Attonement ( which is the Peace ) be ye Reconcil'd to God , Believe , &c. imply some Qualification and Good must be wrought in men before they be in Peace , in a reconcil'd or justify'd Estate : But how agrees this with those doctrines , which wholly exclude the works , Qualification and Good wrought in us by the Spirit of God , and all Obedience done by the aid of the Spirit from Justification , Reconciliation , &c. it being done at once , as he saith , by the Sacrifice of the crucified Body of the Man Christ , whom he saith , hath slain the Enmity in himself , the power of Sin , Death , and the Law for us ; and thus ( saith he ) he is our Saviour , to wit , when no good is wrought in us , by any Light or Spirit whatsoever : so then is follows , its only our Priest's Belief , that all this is already done ; how much void of Good and full of Evil soever we be of our selves , this R.G. hath prescrib'd , an easie way to Heaven , a broad way for Hypocrites to sooth and flatter themselves up in their sins , but a way that is never like to lead them to Heaven , though Christ bore the sin of many and suffer'd for the unjust , even when in the Flesh , and through suffering did both triumph over the Law of Ordinances ( and Shaddows ) which was the Enmity he slew or abolished , Eph. 2.15 . For he had no sin nor enmity , nor power of it in himself to slay ; seeing by the eternal Spirit he offer'd up himself without Spot to God ; by all which , though he by his Innocency condemn'd sin in the flesh , and in himself became a Conqueror and Triumpher through Sufferings ; yet if R. G. and others , come not to experience of the enmity and power of sin and death slain in themselves , they are not actually reconciled , nor sav'd by Christ , neither yet freed from the condemnation of the Law nor Judgment of the Son of God , who hath all Judgment given to him , and Power to execute Judgment , because he is the Son of Man ; but where he is receiv'd as a Saviour , he saveth from Sin , Death , and Enmity in man , and redeemeth from all Iniquity ; For , for that end he gave himself : It s not enough to say , he hath slain the enmity in himself , and the power of sin ; for Hypocrites make that a Cloak for the continuance of sin and enmity in themselves , who know no Good wrought in them by any light or spirit whatsoever : And such are the Corrupters of the Earth , Destroyers of Souls , Deceivers of the Simple , and Perverters of the right Wayes of God ; such think themselves secure and safe in their sins , while they Unscripturally and Antichristianly oppose the Work and Light of Christ within , as not being of a justifying Nature to the Obedient ; and so they falsly apply , reckon , and impute Christ's Righteousness to themselves , while they are actually rebellious against his Light within : and I see no better tendency that R. G's . work hath , it being strictly examin'd and compar'd ; however , therein he covers himself with a pretended applause and extolling of the Dignity and Suffering of Christ's Person ; but they that are sav'd and redeem'd from sin and enmity by him , can say with the Prophet , I will mention the Loving kindness and Praises of the Lord — for he said , Surely they are my People , Children that will not Lye ; so he was their Saviour : Mark So , he was their Saviour , as having sav'd them from Sin. Iniquity , and Falshood ; such are the People that are sav'd by the Lord , who are Children that will not Lye , in whom Deceit and Enmity is slain by the Power and spiritual Appearance of Christ Jesus within , though I grant in general that he is the Saviour of all men , as he affords them Preservation by his Power , as Men and Creatures , in order to give them a day of Visitation , wherein the tenders of Life and everlasting Salvation may be held forth unto them , that believing and receiving the Son of God , they may be sav'd from Sin and Death in themselves ; for he is the Saviour of all men , but especially of them that believe , whose Faith is not a meer Historical Faith of things only done without , but a FAITH in the Name and Power of the Son of God , a Heart-purifying Faith , a justifying Faith , a Faith that worketh by Love , a Faith that is victorious over the World ; by which Faith , we being justified , we have Peace with God ; and by which Faith we have received Christ in Spirit , and know him after the Spirit . The Traditional Knowledge , Faith ; and outward Profession of him ( as meerly after the Flesh ) will neither save nor justifie . The Pope and Papists have as much of these as Robert Gordon , who hath only his Tradition and Faith or Credulity for his Religion and Profession . Although the concurring Testimonies of the holy Prophets , and the four Evangelists , and true Apostles , and Ministers of Christ , concerning his outward Birth , Life , Miracles , Suffering in the Flesh , Death , Resurrection , and Assention , we never deny'd , nor hereby ( in the least oppose , by treating of the Nature and Effects of Faith in him as the Son of God , the Foundation , the Power and Wisdom of God ; the Light , Life , Salvation , Righteousness , Sanctification , and Redemption of true Believers : For he that believeth in , and hath the Son , hath Life ; but he that believeth not in him , the Wrath of God abideth upon him : How then is he , or such , perfectly justified with God , Reconcil'd and Redeem'd at once without them , a●●ording to R. G. while the Wrath of God abides upon them , and while no Good is wrought in them ? Is it good Doctrine to say , That men are perfectly justified while under the Wrath of God ? And that th●y are perfectly Redeem'd , and reconciled , and so at Peace , and imputatively Righteous while actually under the Wrath of God in themselves ? Were it not as good Doctrine to say , That they are imputatively saved while actually Damned ? But this is something like the Doctrine of R. G. and his Teachers or Ministers , the Presbyterians and Independants , under whose Ministry he hath receiv'd what he hath testified , which he deceivedly thinks came from the Lord. And whereas R. G. having deny'd that this Light which enlightens every man is Christ , in which G. K. and I oppos'd him ; and to our saying , So John Preacht him , &c. R.G. again answers in scorn , Thou should rather have added , So G. F. Preacht him , and so others among the Quakers . And further addeth , John , or any of the Pen Me● , never so wrote of Christ ; neither canst thou show me one place of Scripture , wherein it is inserted of Christ , that the Light enlighteneth every man that comes into the World — is the true Christ. Rep. What is this , ●u● to deny the Divinity of Christ , or to deny him to be that Word or Life which was the Light of men , testified of , John 1. which Word became Flesh , and tabernacl'd in us ? Was not this still ●●●ist that John testified of , that was the true Christ that enlig●●●●s every man that comes into the World ? Is it not Anti-christian Doctrine , to deny this enlightening true Light to be Christ , and to scoff at us for asserting it ? And because I distinguished between Christ the Enlightener , and his Gift of Light or Illumination in man , R. G. hath judg'd me severely , as to be in Self-contradiction , for my saying , That we affirm a Spiritual Divine Light to be in eve●y man , yet we do not say that Christ is in every man , or that every man hath the Son ; though still I own the Son to be the Enlightner of every man : This he counts a Contradiction , but herein he hath but slightly overlookt and censured my words ; for there is no Contradiction in them , any more then in saying , Christ the true Light , enlighteneth every man ; so that there is Christ and his Illumination , yet every man is not a Child of Light , walks not in the Light , hath not the Son , is not attain'd to the Revelation of Christ , and yet hath a degree of his Light and Illumination in them ; wherein is his power and capacity of believing and receiving the Son of God ; or otherwise , it is sufficient to leave them without Excuse ; yea , the least Measure of Christ's Light is sufficient in each respect , although this Opposer most ignorantly s●ights the Work of any Law or Light in man , or Obedience wrought thereby , as not able to deliver him from the Condemnation and Curse of the Law , so as to obtain Justification with God the●eby , pag. 25. Whereas the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ makes free from the Law of Sin and Death ; and this Law of the Spirit of Life is within ; this Law is Light ; this being obey'd thus freeth man from the power of Sin and Death , where true Obedience to the Light is ; sin is not obey'd , neither sin nor death doth raign in the Creature , but Righteousness raigns within unto Life ; sin being forsaken , the cause of Condemnation and the Curse is remov'd ; and where there is no Condemnation there is Justification , even to them that walk not after the Flesh but after the Spirit : And is not this a state accepted of God , seeing its the Doers of his Will that are just and justified ? But after this , R G. hath oppos'd and scoff●d at that saying , That this Light that enlightens every man that comes into the World is Christ ( having deny'd this ) he , in plain Contradiction to himself , is forc'd to acknowledge the Truth in these words , I also acknowledge that it is said , John 1.9 . of Christ Jesus , that was the true Light , which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , illuminat , enlighteneth every man , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , venientem , coming into the World , for so it is in the Greek ; and that every man is enlightened by Jesus Christ , as he is the Word that made the World &c. pag. 27 , 28. See here , R. G. against R. G. one while the true Light which enlighteneth every man is not the true Christ ( with him ) another while , Jesus Christ was the true Light , which enlighteneth every man that cometh into the World : Do you think this is a trusty man to give credit to ? let the unprejudic'd Readers judge . And further , We do not call the enlightening in every man the Christ , but the Light of Christ , having already distinguished between the Enlightener and the Illumination , and between the Giver and the Gift . And now as concerning the Law and Nature by which the Gentiles did the things contain'd in the Law ; R. G. saith , This Law or Enlightening thus planted in man'● nature by generation , is by Generation convey'd into every man as he cometh into the World ; and that it is called by Solomon , the spirit of man , which is the Candle of the Lord , &c. Pro. 20.27 . Answ. This Law and Light , that inwardly taught the Gentiles , was the Immediate Gift of God ; Christ , as the Word , being confessed to enlighten every man , whose Light is not natural , nor by natural generation convey'd , as most grosly R.G. words it ; neither is it the spirit of man which simply knows but the things of a man ; but it is that Light , which lighteth , kindleth and stirs up the spirit of a man , whereby it is the Candle of the Lord ; neither is it a Light or Thing form'd or made , as the spirit of man is , Za. 12.1 . but a divine and spiritual Light , manifesting the Good-will of God unto the Creature . Again , It is R. G's . gross Error , That the Law , or enlightening in every man , is the form'd spirit in man ( and yet in contradiction adding ) enlightened by him that made it , pa. 29. So that the Law or Enlightening , is not the form'd spirit of ma● , it being the Light of him that made it , p. 29. So that the ●aw , or Enlightening , is not the form'd spirit of man , it being the Light of him that made it , that enlighteneth man's spirit : Thus this R.G. is involved in his own Confusion , as one in a Labyrinth . Now concerning the nature by which those Gentiles did the things contain'd in th● Law , R. G. gives this expl●nation of it , viz. As being born of the Seed , and after the kind of Man , they are naturally or by nature Men ; so being born of the seed of Man , they do naturally or by Nature , the things contained in the Law , being written in their Hearts , &c. pa. 29. Answ. I would ask this man , Whether this Nature he speaks of was pure or impure , corrupt or incorrupt ? These Gentiles had not the Law outwardly , but they had the Law inwardly written in their hearts , according to which they should be either accus'd or excus'd in the Day when God should judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ ; this Law or Light in them was not Natural but Spiritual : excusing the Obedient , and accusing the Disobedient before God , unto which Law the awakened and convicted Conscience doth bear witness and testifie either a mans Condemnation , or Peace : These Gentiles , who obey'd it , shew'd the Effects of it ; they had more of the Life of Christianity in them , then many of the Professors of Christianity , who are disobedient to his Law and Light within , placing Christianity meerly in a dead Faith and Profession of Christ , without the Knowledge of his Work of Righteousness within , or the Obedience of Faith , or Effects of his Law in the heart ; the Christianity of such is but meerly pretended and fa●n'd , and not real : And the Life , State , and Nature of those Gentiles , who obey'd the Law written in their hearts , as they witnessed against the Jews outward , so shall these Gentiles rise up in Judgment against you Hypocritical and Fain'd Professors of Christianity , who are Strangers to the true Life , Power , and Nature thereof . And what Confusion doth this R. G. show in saying , That the Law or Light in every man , is neither the Light of the Gospel , nor the ingrafted Word within , that is able to save the soul : And yet confess , That by it the Eternal Power and Godhead may be known . How hath he broke the Neck of his own Cause ! Is there any higher Power , then the Eternal Power and Godhead ? And can any Law or Light , then what is Divine , and of a Gospel Nature , discover it ? For the Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation , to all them that believe ; and it is the Gospel of God show'd forth , or manifested by the Light of his Son , and Preach'd in every Creature under Heaven : And by this Light of Christ within , is the Love , Good-will , and Grace of God to Mankind declar'd and signify'd , both in its being so universally given , and in its living Testimony in ma● against sin and corruption , and for Truth and Righteousness , in order to direct man to Life and Salvation in the Son of God , who is the Power and Wisdom of God , the Brightness of his Fathers Glory , and the express Character of his Divine Substance ; who proceeded and came forth from God , whose Power and Glory is Eternal and Divine , seen Spiritually , not Carnally ; his own Royal and Peculiar Off-spring do in his Light behol● his Glory , as that of the only Begotten of the Father . As to R. G. his saying , His Apostles and all his Ministers in all Ages — all in one joynt Voice , pointing to Jesus the Son of Mary , this Son of Man , with an Hosanna to this Son of David , and to none before him , or to any ever since . Answ. That the Holy Prophets , Apostles , and Ministers , both pointed and testify'd unto Jesus Christ , both as man born of the Virgin ( or to his coming in the Flesh ) and unto his Divinity , and Manifestation in Spirit ; this is own'd : But that they all cry'd Hosanna to the Son of David , is a Mistake ; for it was the Multitudes that went before and that followed ( when Christ rid to Jerusalem ) that cry'd Hosanna to the Son of David , Matt. 21.9 . Mark , It was the Multitude that cryed , Hosanna to the Son of David : Many can now cry Hosanna , who never knew his Salvation within , nor believ'd in his Power ; but rather spiritually crucify him . And the Scribes and Pharisees could talk of Christ's being the Son of David ( and some calling him the Carpenter's Son ) when they neither truly believ'd nor o●n'd him ( that was the true Christ ) either as the Root or Off-spring of David . But Christ ask'd these Pharisees and Scrib●s ( who said Christ is the Son of David ) this Questi●n ▪ saying , What think ye of Christ , whose Son is he ? They said unto him , The Son of David : He said unto them , How then doth David in Spirit call him Lord , saying , The Lord said unto my Lord , Sit thou on my Righ-hand , till I make thine Enemies thy Foot-stool ? If David then call him Lord , how is he his Son ? And no man was able to answer him a word , neither durst any man ( from that day forth ) ask any more Questions , Matt. 22. and Mark 12.35 , 36 , 37. Now was not this the true Christ , whom David in spirit call'd Lord , before he took upon him Flesh , or came of his seed ? And what is Hosanna ? Is it not , Save now I beseech thee ? And did not David call to , and beseech God , to save him , and to shew Mercy unto him , long before Christ ( as of Mary ) was born ? ( How ignorant and confus'd doth this our Opposet shew himself ? ) see Psa. 3.7 . & 6.4 . & 28.9 . I perceive he is ignorant of Christ , both as the Son of God , and as the Son of Man ; for , according to the Spirit he was the Son of God ; and as the Son of man it s said of him , that no man hath ascended up to Heaven , but he which came down from Heaven , even the Son of Man , which is in Heaven , John 3.13 . And what if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up , where he was before ? John 6.62 . But it appears further , that R. G's . Hosanna , and pretended Adoration , and claim of Salvation , is only to him , as the Son of Mary , as now ( imaginary he saith ) existing outwardly bodily without us . * Whereupon I ask him , If he hath so considered him to be God the Saviour , or the Son from the Substance of the Father , ( as some of his Brethren have confessed the Son is ? ) And that he Existeth outwardly bodily without us , at God's Right-hand : What Scripture Proof hath he for these words ? ) And then , What , and where , is God's Right-hand ? is it visible , or invisible ? within us , or without us only ? And is Christ the Saviour as an outward bodily Existen● or Person without us , distinct from God , and on that consideration , to be worshipped as God , yea , or nay ? And where doth the Scripture say , He is outwardly and bodily glorified at God's Right-hand ? Do these termes express the Glory that he had with the Father before the World began , in which he is now glorified ? But did not Mary express a higher Praise and Worship then R. G's ( and the Multitudes ) Hosanna to the Son of David , when she said , My Soul doth Magnifie the Lord , and my spirit doth Rejoyce in God my Saviour , Luke 1.46 , 47. And whereas concerning the Law or Light in every man , he instanceth , Doth not even Nature it self teach ? either to prove this Law or Light natural , as mans Nature , insufficient or far below the Teachings of the new Covenant ; and yet in pag. 31. confesseth , That it show'd them ( to wit the Gentiles ) that which may be known of God , being manifested in them — They are left without Excuse , saith he ; and that of God , which is manifest in them , gave them an Eye to see his Invinsible Power and Godhead ; to know God , and glorifie him as God , page 32. A large Confession to his own Confusion : And was that of God in them , or that which might be known of God in them Natural , as of man's Nature , or but the form'd spirit of man , or something proceeding from Natural Generation ? Oh gross Ignorance ! That ever a man should pretend to vindicate Christianity , and shew so much Contradiction to himself , and so much Ignorance of that Divine Light and Power , which gives both to see the invisible things of God , and to glorifie him as God ; surely this is not natural , nor of corrupt nature , that is sufficient to bring men into this good Estate ; or to leave them without excuse if they abide not in it , retain not God in their Knowledge , or glorifie him not as God , see Rom. 1.19 , 20 , 21 , 28. How contrary to plain Scripture and Reason hath this man reason'd against the Light of God and Christ within ; as also , ignorant of the Seed within , and its being raised ; and of the Righteousness in the Elect Seed . For he calls these , New imagined Notions , whereof there is no mention made in the Scriptures of Truth , pag. 32. I believe they are New to him , and such as he is , in whom the seed of the Serpent is so highly risen , and raigns as so ; openly to oppose this blessed seed of God where it is raised , though they cannot prevail against it ( for , though it be sown in Weakness , it s rais'd in Power . ) And yet in contradiction to himself , in the same page , confesseth , That the ingrafted Word which is able to save the Soul , which is called the Seed of the Kingdom ; which , in the Children of Faith takes deep root downward , and brings forth fruit upwards . Neither of which it hath done in this , and such like confus'd Gainsayers , who can talk much of the outward Birth of Christ , but know nothing of his spiritual Birth ( this is R. G's . state ) but as much as in them lies , bury the Seed , having crucified unto themselves the Son of God , untill by their persisting in their Gainsaying , and wilful Opposition against the Light and Seed of God within , there remains no more Sacrifice for them ; though there remains a Sacrifie for them that do not persist in wilful Disobedience , nor crucifie to themselves the Son of God , or Seed of ●ife and Righteousness in its Appearance within , which Appearance being received and believ'd ; and so the Righteous Seed , which abides in him that is born of God , taking place and rule within , this bringeth forth the Fruit of Righteousness unto Life and Justification ; and so removes and works out that which is the Cause of Wrath and Condemnation . Let him that can , receive it . AND as to R. Gordon's Part against Gawen Lowry ; It appears an impertinent Flam and a piece of Cavil , much like the rest of his stuff against us . He seems to be offended , That G. L. should communicate to others his private Letter ; and yet he himself hath published some Passages of G. L's . Letter to him in Print , with his own impertinent Cavils and Pervertions . Now if he thinks G. L. did not well in communicating his Letter to be publish'd , why did he publish G. L's . with such cross and peevish Aggravations against him ? Hath he not herein done that by another , which he would not have done by himself ? Where is his Pretended-love ; or Friendship , or his Equal-dealing ? As for what could be sqeezed out of his Letter to his disadvantage , tending ( as his words are forc'd to speak ) to no less then an owning another Mediator — then Jesus of Nazareth , as he saith , But that we needed not do by his Letter ; it needed neither forcing nor sqeezing to make it worse then it was ; for we laid down his own very words in it , and did write but little to it , it appear'd so gross and Antichristian : And now because he saith , That he is not asham'd of what he hath written , it is meet his doctrine should be here inserted again , that the Reader may further take notice thereof . Some Places of Scripture sent to Robert Gordon , by Gawin Lawry . John 1. ( from the first verse forward ) In the beginning was the Word . Chap. 12. verse 46. I am come a Light into the World , &c. Chap. 15. ver . 5. I am the Vine , ye are the Branches . Rom. 8.10 . If Christ be in you , &c. 1 Cor. 1.24 . Christ the Power of God , and the Wisdom of God. 2 Cor. 13.3 . Seeing you seek Experience of Christ speaking in me . Tit. 2 14. Who gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from all Iniquity . 1 Joh. 5.12 . He that hath the Son , hath Life . Chap. 4. vers . 4. Greater is he that is in you , then he that is in the World. Robert Gordon's Answer to these Scriptures . I have considered the Scriptures thou mentionest ; and I find that in none of them it is testified who the true Christ our only Saviour is , but what he is through the operations of his Spirit in Believers , called therefore the Anointing within , or Christ within ; but these Operations of his Spirit within , are no where in Scripture called the Lord's Christ , our only Saviour : And if thou own no other Mediator , Christ , or Saviour , then what is described in these Scriptures thou mentions , then necessarily thou disowns the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth , a Man approved of God , &c. Thus far R. G. telling us also of the Writings of that enlightned Man Jacob Behoman , as his words are . On which the Observation was thus , viz. Observe , Hear the tenure and tendency of R. G's . Answer how antichristian it is ? He appears here plainly as owning another Mediator , Christ , or Saviour , then that Christ that said , I am come a Light into the World , I am the Vine ; &c. ( And we ask , Was not he Jesus of Nazareth ? ) And of whom it is testified in Scripture , Christ in you ; Christ the Power and Wisdom of God ; He that hath the Son , hath Life ; Who gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from all Iniquity , &c. But R. G. doth not own this Christ to be the Lord 's Christ , or Jesus Christ of Nazareth ; but he must have some other christ , then this Christ , that is descib'd in those Scriptures before . ( But dare he say that Jacob Behoman owns his doctrine herein ? And I add , Surely R. G. grows darker and darker , to turn from a Behmanist , to an Antinomian , Presbyterian , and Independant . ) For this Christ , who is the Word , the Light , the Christ in Believers , the Power and Wisdom of God speaking in Saints , R. G. deems but the Operations of the Spirit , and not Christ the Operator , Saviour , or Redeemer ; wherein he is greatly mistaken , and has out-run himself besides any right Aim : For Christ , as the Word , the true Light , the Power and Wisdom of God , the Redeemer from all Iniquity ; and as in his Saints , the Giver of Life and Victory over the World , &c. he is the true Operator of God ( his Operations within , cannot be wrought without him the Operator ) and the Author of Faith , the Worker out of Sin , the Saviour and Redeemer from Iniquity ( and so an Operator as such ) He is given for a Leader , for Light , Life , and Salvation to all who believe in his Light , which will shine , live , prevail and prosper against all the Darkness , Dark-spirits , and Enmity which oppose it . Now let the Reader judge , whether R. G's . words be not Antichristian , and he an Antichrist and Deceiver , yea , or nay ? This R. G. represents some of G. L's . Letter to him in these words . I find thy Mind , in this Book , abroad ; gathering in the comprehension what thou fancy'st , and hast heard of others , so heaps up Confusion and Contradiction : What will avail thee or me , that we know abroad , of things done abroad ? Nothing at all . If ever thee or I come to know true Peace , we must come to know the Life that quickens : It is not Names nor Things done without , but the Life within that redeems , that purges , that sanctifies , that quickens the Soul to God. To this R.G. cavillingly answers . Now consider what is testified by the Prophets and Apostles , concerning the Man Christ Jesus without them , a Name and thing abroad — The Saints of old believed in him for Redemption ; they saw , and believed , and left it upon Record to us , and their Report is true , that we also , who have not seen , might Believe and be Blest — Thou hast made the Coming , Death , Sufferings , and Resurrection of the Man Christ , for the taking away Sin , as quite useless as Redemption , Justification , Salvation , as a Name and Thing done Abroad , &c. No , He hath not made void these things by his owning the Life that quickens , the Life within that redeemeth , that purgeth , and that sanctifieth , and quickens the soul to God ; for this answereth both Christ's Testimony , and the End of his Coming : He hath only signify'd how void and empty R. G. is of the true and living Knowledge of Christ , and his Works within : As also , Accounting that faith but dead , which is receiv'd only by Tradition and Report , without either sight or sense of Christ , or his Power and Operations within , as the Foundation , and Author , and Object of Living Faith , which sanctifies and justifies ; which is contrary to R. G's . dead Faith of Names and Things all without , while nothing of Life is felt within : The Flesh of the Son of Man he hath not eat , and his Blood he hath not drunk of ; so that Life in him he hath not received : And I believe , that the Name of Christ Jesus , his Power and Works , have so little place or reception in him , that both Christ , his Name , the Redemption of the Soul , Justification , and Salvation , are all shut out of doors , and so but as Names and things abroad with R. G. and so the End , and Effect of Christ's Coming , and Sufferings , and the Power of his Resurrection , these also have no place in such as he , who do not experience the Life nor the Power of Christ within , to redeem , sanctifie , or quicken the Soul to God ; neither is his sin taken away from within , while Salvation and Redemption are shut out , meerly as things abroad : but Christ said , It is the Spirit that quickens , the Flesh profiteth nothing , John ▪ 6.63 . And the Apostle Paul said , Though we have known Christ after the flesh , yet now henceforth know we him so no more , 2 Cor. 5.16 . And did not the Apostle know him to be their everlasting Salvation , Justification , and Redemption ? Now that of Jesus , the Son of the Highest , it s said , The Lord God shall give unto him the Throne of David ; and he shall Raign over the House of Jacob ; and of his Kingdom there shall be no End , Luke 1. Now to this we both confess , and assert it . But whereas ▪ R. G. so very often over , speaks of Jesus Christ the son of Mary , and that out of the Natural Seed of David , is their Saviour , &c. Now though I grant , that according to the Flesh he was born of the Virgin Mary , descended of the Linage of David ; yet he was Miraculously conceiv'd by the Over-shaddowing of the Power of the Highest , and therefore was call'd the Son of God ; not Natural Seed of David , that 's not Sc●ipture : He is neither a Natural Saviour , nor Carnal Christ ( as is imported in such like Sayings of Carnal Professors ) But being the Son of the Most High , ( who proceeded and came forth from God ) in his Divine Power and Spirit , he was , and is the Saviour ; and thereby Raigns over the House of Jacob forever , So the Seed which raigns is not Natural nor Carnal , but Spiritual ; for unto the Son it s said , O God , thy Throne is forever , Heb. 1.8 . Now I ask , Was this a Natural Seed ? But in that Christ , in the dayes of his Flesh , said , I can of my own self do nothing ; the Son can do nothing of himself , but what he seeth the Father do , that he doth : Still I imply and grant , that he took upon him a real Body of Flesh ; though methinks R. G. might have ascribed more Honour to Jesus Christ , as being the Son of the Most High , then by so often calling him the Son of Mary , which he doth so very often , as if we deny'd his outward Birth of her ; but that no ingenious man will judge of us , how disigeniously soever he hath dealt by us in this and other things ; whom I query upon his words , Jesus Christ , the Son of Mary , of the Natural seed of David , shall Raign over the House of Jacob forever . First , Whether or no the Throne of David , which was promised to be given him to sit upon , be an outward Throne ? Secondly , Whether or no he shall outwardly Raign in Person ? Thirdly , Whether or no his Kingdom , that shall have no End , be an outward Kingdom ; seeing Christ said , My Kingdom is not of this World ? And now R. G. thou showest thy self in a most inveterate Rage against me , as one highly angry'd at me , in thy parcel of Confusion , and Ignorance , and Reviling ; wherein thou hast not at all clear'd thy self , nor reconcil'd thy manifold Contradictions , which I laid upon thee in my Part of the Book , about which thou hast but made a meer Scraffling Bundle of Confusion against me and us , instead of candidly answering our Book ▪ Thou begin'st to charge my Part , as that of a clamorous Woman , having only brought forth a meer Libel , stuffed with a bundle of ( currilous Expressions ; which is but thy own Clamour and Malice against me , and it doth not touch me , nor what I writ ; for , the Truth asserted by us , stands over thy head , and thy Confusions and Self-contradictions remains on record against thee to thy own perplexity ; which beca●se I have so plainly manifested on my Part , thou appear'st ( instead of clearing thy self thereof ) as if thou would'st be reveng'd of me at once , by seeking to make People believe , That not only I have contradicted my self ; but G. F. also , in these Passages , viz. Where I s●id in my Answer to Newman , That though we do affirm a Spiritual Divine Light of God and his Son to be in every man , yet not that Christ is in every man , or that every man hath the Son : And yet I said thus of thee , Let the Impartial Reader judge of R. G's . Confusion and Ignorance , not owning the Light , that enlight●ns every man , to be Christ or the Son of God ; contrary to Scriptures . To which thou add'st , Oh strange ! be ●sham'd , &c. Truly thou may'st be asham'd of thy Ignorance , to attempt to fasten a Contradiction upon me , without either right Judgment , Sense , or Consideration ; for I do still assert , That Jesus Christ , the Son of God , is the true Light , that enlightens every man that comes into the World ; and that it is R. G's . Ignorance and Antichristianism , to deny that it is Jesus Christ that so enlightens : And yet I say , it is no Contradiction in me to say , That the Light , Gift , or Illumination of Christ , that is in every man , is not Christ himself , the Giver , or Enlighterner , his universal Illumination being consider'd as a Measure of his Light , Grace , or Gift ; for there is the Giver , and the Gift , which is given in divers Measures and Degrees , as the Creature is capable of receiving from the infinite Fulness of Light and Life ; so there is a distinction ( as to the Creature ) between the Giver and the Gifts , as every good and perfect Gift comes from God ; who by his Enlightnings enlightned the World , and the Earth trembled and shook , Psa. 77.18 . Now here is God the Fountain of Light , and his Enlightenings , which do enlighten , and yet he is Infinite and Omnipresent ; and so I may say of Christ , as God over all , he is without and beyond Limitation or Bounds , of Place ; the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain God ; his Presence filleth Heaven and Earth , although his Light or Life appears and shews it self by Degrees to the universal capacities of Mankind , and not in the fulness thereof , that being beyond the reach of the Creature 's capacity . But to come to R. G's . Objection , as neer as I can , to make him understand my clearness of contradicting my self , or G. F. as also to see his own Ignorance ; I say , Jesus Christ the Living Word , is the true Christ , that enlighteneth every man that cometh into the World ; here is the true Light and its Enlightening distinguish'd , as plain as Lux and Lumen , he being that vera Lux quae illuminat , &c. as to speak in a low similitude ( not for proof nor absolute comparison * but illustration ) there is the Shining , the Beams , or Illumination of the Sun , in Houses , which are not the Sun it self ; though this is but a P●rable limited to the word Enlighten . Much might be said in these Matters . But whereas thou add'st , That thou supposest there may be so much Honesty in G. F. to rebuke me openly , and bring me to a publique Confession before him , thereby at least to vindicate his own Book , Printed 1659. wherein , thou say'st , it is often affirm'd , That the Light in every man is Christ , and that Christ is in every man , see page 9 , 10 , 19 , 20. Now by the way it is observable , That thou hast rather justified that Asse●tion , That Christ is in every man ; in pressing to have G. F. rebuke me openly , which Assertion thou hast not only deny'd at other times , but also deny'd that the true Light , which enlighteneth every man , is Christ : But thy Scorn , and Falshood , and Wronging us both in this matter , is very manifest from his said Book , and the very Pages cited by thee : For as G.F. with me , often asserts , That Christ is the true Light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the World : Yet he also asserteth in the said Book , and pag. 9. in answer to John Bunion , these very words , Thou never knew Christ form'd in thee , nor the raigning of the Seed ; and how was the Lamb slain from the Found●tion of the World , but amongst such as thou art ? And Reprobates may talke of Justification , in whom Christ is NOT , who witness him NOT within ; he is not ●our Justification . M●rk now , where is the Contradiction between G. F. and I ? D●th this contradict that Saying , that it is not our Principle to s●y , T●at Christ is in every man ( intending as form'd , rev●al'd , or u●ited to man ) or that ever● man hath the Son ; and yet a spirit●al divine Light of God and of his Son is in every man ? See now how thou art deceiv'd in thy Conceits and Bragging , as if thou had'st fasten'd such irreconcilable Contradictions on us ; who , notwithstanding thy Insinuation , to make G. F. rebuke me openly , thou would'st have such among us , who have known any thing of the Teachings of the Spirit , to cease from us , as if we were all Deceivers , and yet supposest Honesty in G. F. as to rebuke me for a Contradiction , as thou falsly imagin'st ; but now would have People cease from us , as if we both taught Untruths , which thou thus represents , That Christ is not in every man ; yet that he is in every man : if neither of these be true , shew us another Truth between them ; but thou rather showeth thy own Confusion still . Again , I neither clamour , nor am angry at any Scripture Proofs , concerning Christ , as falsly thou accusest me ; but thou dost not answer my matter , where I question thee concerning thy words , God Man and his Purchasing all with God ; so I must still leave the Question upon thee : For , whom dost thou reckon hath he compleated and purchas'd all ? And of whom did God purchase Salvation , according to thy strange manner of Expre●sion ? Whereas thou go'st so often over with these words , Jesus Christ the Son of Mary , whom thou call'st , God-Man : I ask thee , If this be not of kin to the Papists , calling Mary the Mother of God ? and where did the Apostles so often ( or ever ) use those Expressions , Jesus Christ [ God-man , the Son of the Virgin Mary ? ] And who were they that said , Is not this the Carpenter , the Son of Mary ? To whom Jesus said , A Prophet is not without Honour , but in his own Country , &c. Mark 6.3 , 4. Now what think'st thou ? Did they Honour him in those Expressions ? And which hast thou more Honour'd , Him , or Mary ? But Peter gave a higher Testimony of him , when he said , Thou art Christ the Son of the Living God : To whom Jesus answer'd , Blessed art thou , Simon Barjona ; for Flesh and Blood hath not reveal'd it unto thee , but my Father which is in Heaven , Mat. 16.16 , 17. But do not the Papists honour him as much as thou , in their frequ●nt calling him the Son of Mary , as thou hast done ? Who also hast grosly wrong'd my words , where I said , Nor was the Son of God , nor his Light , under such a Limitation , either as to Time or Place , a● a finite Creature ; but his Out-goings were of Old , from Everlasting , &c. from which thou infer'st , If that Holy Thing , conceiv'd ●f the Holy Ghost , and born of Mary , was not therefore the Son of God — Then the Man Jesus Christ of Nazareth , who w●s the So● of the Virgin Mary , was not the Son of God ( thou say'st . ) Whereby ●hou falsly add'st , That I have given the Angel Gabriel the Lye , and am in union with those Jews , who reckon'd him but a meer Man , the Carpenter 's Son , &c. John 10.33 . To be sure thou art in union with a Lying spirit , and art a gross Perverter ; for though I do not own that the Son of God , and his Light , is under such a Limitation , the Holy One and his Light being unlimited : I did neither thereby intend , nor do my words bear any such Construction , as that The Holy Thing conceiv'd by the Holy Ghost , was not the Son of God : Besides , thou having confest , that his Out-goings were from Everlasting , hast thereby granted to what I said , That the Son of God and his Light are not under a Limitation as to Time and Place , especially if thou wilt own his Divinity , or that he ever was the Son of God before he took a Body in the Womb of the Virgin ; but if thou dost not own that the Son of God was before then , then thou dost not own his Divinity , nor him no more then a finite Creature : And herein the Heathen may judge thee as Nebuchadnezar , when he said , Lo I see four men loose , walking in the mid'st of the Fire , and they had no hurt ; and the form of the forth is like the Son of God , Dan. 3.24 , 25. How came he to speak of the Son of God then ? And by what Scripture , and how much , hast thou exceeded those Jews , that call'd Christ the Carpenters Son ; or those that call'd him the Carpenter , the Son of Mary , Mark 6.34 . who therein did not truly honour him as a Prophet , much less as the Son of God , no more then thou hast in thy frequent calling him the Son of Mary , the Son of Mary , the Son of Mary , &c. as the POPE and PAPISTS do ? But when one said unto Christ , Behold thy Mother and thy Brethren stand without , &c. He answer'd , who is my Mother , and who are my Brethren ? Behold ! whosoever shall do the Will of my Father , which is in Heaven , the same is my Brother , my Sister , and Mother , Mat. 12.47 . to the end . Mark 3.33 , 34 , 35. Luke 8.21 . and 11.29 , 30. And now to what thou say'st pag. 41. Of Sinners , Vngodly , Vnjust , Enemies , even while Enemies and no Good wrought in them by any light or spirit whatsoever ; that for these Christ made an end of Sin , abolish'd Condemnation , Curse , and Death , &c. And this is thy Explanation , Of God-Man having at once without us wrought , compleated , and purchas'd all with God ( as thou nonsensically word'st it . ) For which I query , If all this be done for the whole World , when no Good is wrought in them by the Light or Spirit of God ; then why are any condemn'd ? Can it be just with God , to condemn any , or with-h●ld Salvation from any , if it be so purchased , paid for , or he satisfied for , and , with men in their sins , when no Good is wrought in them ? But what absurdity is it to say , That Transgression is finish'd , and Sin made an end of , and Condemnation , Curse , and Death abolish'd ; where ( yet in thee , and other such empty and dead Professors ) both Transgression and Sin actually remains , and Death raigns , for which you are liable to Condemnation ; the Wrath of God being reveal'd from Heaven against all Vngodliness and Vnrighteousness of men , who hold Truth in Vnrighteousness , and his Wrath abiding on him that believes not in the Son ? But if thou reckon'st that men's Transgression is finish'd , and their Sin made an end of , and that they are reckon'd Righteous , when no Good is wrought in them ; then it must thus be taken , That they are imputatively Righteous , while actually Sinful ; and though Sin be in them , God sees it not , or takes no notice of it , as to condemn them or reprove them for it ; which is still corrupt Antinomianism , and contrary to reason or Truth : Though he●eby I do not oppose , but really confess Christ to have given himself for us , an Offering and Sacrifice to God , for a sweet smelling Savour , Eph. 5.2 . Yea , and that God hath set him forth to be a Propitiation through Faith in his Blood , to declare his Righteousness for the Remission of Sins that are past , through the Forbearance of God : Now though there be an Appeasment of Wrath , and Remission held forth in this Propitiation for sins that are past ; yet this Righteousness of God , declar'd thereby , doth not admit of sin to be continu'd ; or of sins past , present , and to come , as thy words are . This Righteousness will not indulge thee , nor other● in Unrighteousness all your dayes ; neither is it the Nature of this Blood of his Sacrifice , nor of Faith in it to cover or excuse thee in thy sins ; for Faith purifies the Heart , and the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin , where it is receiv'd in the Living Faith : Neither will thy Profession of sin being ended without thee , and Righteousness brought in , in Christ's Person without thee , be any Cloak for thee in thy sin and enmity ; nor yet will thy confus'd Talk ( of God-Man having Purchas'd all with God for thee ) stand thee in any stead in God's dreadful Day . Although thou professest Victory and Perfection in Christ , while in Sin and Imperfection in thy self , as thou represents the Believer's state , p. 43. which shews thy Ignorance both of Perfection , Victory , and being in Christ ; for Perfection and Imperfection are two contrary things , as being in Christ , and being in Sin are : And as the Warfare against Sin , and the Victory over it , are different ; so he that is in Christ , is a New Creature , old things are done away , though there is a time of Warring , and a time of Victory ; a time of Groaning within our selves for Redemption , where the First Fruits of the Spirit are receiv'd , and a time of Triumphing and Rejoycing in Victory ; for First Fruits imply that there are Second Fruits : But thou , in citing that of Rom. 8.23 . hast left out the word FIRST ( for it makes against thee ) and set the Fruits of the Spirit , instead of the First Fruits of it : But why dost thou talk of the Warfare , whil'st thou reckon'st Transgression and Sin made an end of ; and Justification , and Salvation , and Redemption purchas'd and perfected with God without thee , when no good is wrought in thee ? And after what manner dost thou pray to God ? Dost thou ask Forgiveness for thy sins ? Or rather , Doth not thy Doctrine tend , not only to strengthen People in Sin , and to make them so stout in their Rebellion , as not to need to ask Forgiveness of God for their Sins ? For what need that , if such a Purchase , Pa●ment , or Satisfaction be made without them , for sins past , present , and to come , as thy Doctrine imports ? For that is ●ot of the Nature of Forgiveness : And what doth Christ make intercession for ? Is it for something he hath purchas'd and compleat●d with God already ? Which ( if so ) cannot justly be detain'd from the Creature , no , not from any in what state soever , if thy Doctrine hold : For i● a m●n's Debts pasts present , and to come , be all aforehand paid at once , and his Release purch●s'd by his Surety ; would it not be absurd in him still to pray to his Creditor , Oh! I beseech thee forgive me my Debts ? and would it not be as unjust if the Creditor should still detain him in Prison after such a full compensation or rigid satisfaction of th● Law is made ? * O●ght there not rather to be enjoy'd a Deliverance upon it , Ipso Facto ? But thou , and such as thou art , make Christ's Sufferings a Cloak for Sins past , present , and to come ; pleading your Perfection , Righteousness , and Compleatness in him ; and all as done at once without you , while yet imperfect , actually Vnrighteous , and Incompleat in your selves in your Lives and Conversations , and no good wrought in you by any light or spirit whatsoever : Dost thou think that God is therewith satisfi●d ? or that Christ and his Sufferings will indempnifie and acquit you , living and dying in your Sins and Pollutions ? No , no ; God will not be put off , nor his Wayes slighted by such Hypocritical Flams and Mockeries . And whereas in pag. 44. thou falsly accus'st me , Of pleading for a being perfected in my self ; and to prove the contrary of me [ as not having attain'd the end of Faith ( which is the Salvation of the Soul ) which thou reckon'st , is not till men be as Angels , neither Marrying nor giving in Marri●ge ] And thou say'st of me , Why is he then like unto us M●rtals , Marrying , and giving in Marriage ; Eating , and Drinking , and not above Sickness and Death ? Is this a sufficient Argument against Perfection ? Is Marriage an Argument of Imperfection ? Was Adam imperfect in Paradice , when Eve was given an Help-Meet for him ? Or is either Eating , Drinking , Bodily Sickness , or Death , an Argument of Imperfection ? By this thou may'st accuse many of the Servants of the Lord , if not all , and Christ himself , with Imperfection ; for he did Eat , and Drink , and suffer'd Death in the Flesh : But as for my Particular , I do not tell thee my state , whether Perfect , or Imperfe●t , nor argue from thence against thee ; though I plead for the Principle ( of Truth ) of Perfection , or Freedom , and Salvation from sin , being attainable in this life , by vertue of that divine Power and Faith , which overcomes sin , and is able to subdue all things to it self . And thy accusing me of giving in Marriage , is a meer Falshood ; for though I own Marriage as being an Ordinance of God , and Witness bear to the honourable Marri●ge and Joyning in him ; yet it is not our Principle to make , or give in Marriage ; but we do own the Lord 's Joyning , and the Marriage that is according to his Will. And as for not being above Sickness and Death , which I am accus'd of , as a Token of Imp●rfection : This is a very mean Argument against me ; and how I am in such a State or Tryal of Sickness , thou dost not know how my spirit is ; nor what Injoyment of God , or Renewing in the inward Man I have , when the outward man is in Weakness : However , such as thou art , be ready to rejoyce and insult over me , or others of us , when you hear of our Afflictions or Tryals ; and its probable thou , and such , would rejoyce much more in our Death or Dissolution , if that might come to pass according to your minds : But I thank God , he hath given me Peace and Patience , and hath afforded an increase of Consolation to me in Sickness ; and Death I have not feared , but in my spirit have been over it , when in outward appearance nigh unto it : I confess I have had Sickness , and many outward Tryals , for the Work of the Lord and his Truth 's sake ; as that Servant of Christ in the Gospel , Ep●phraditus , Paul's Brother and Companion in Labour and Fellow-soldier , was Sick nigh unto death for the Work of Christ , not regarding his Life , Phil. 2.25 . to the end : Now if thou should upbraid him , or such , with being imperfect because of such Sickness , what a peevish pitiful Argument would it be ? Nay , doth it not rather make more against thee ; that the Servants of Christ meet with such Exercises for the Work 's sake , which is not for sin ? And that some do the more witness Patience to have her perfect Work , and Faith its exercise under Tryals ; and as Job said , When I am try'd , I shall come forth as Gold , Job 23.10 . Do not these all make against thee , and argue that God will have a pure and perfect People , and they shall be manifest to be such through their manifold Afflictions and Tryals . And now whereas I said , That thou hadst shown thy self one while like a Quaker , having gotten many of their words ( in thy other Pamphlet ) and another while like a Presbyterian and Independant : To this thou answer'st , That thou hast therein testified to , in thy measure , what thou receiv'dst of the Lord , through and under the Ministry of those I call Presbyterian and Independant , pag. 44. What didst thou think to gain such a great Conquest over us , by thy beggarly Scraps and poor Reliques , that thou hast gather'd and learn'd under the Ministry of Presbyterians and Independants , when many of them ( thy Tutors ) have been confounded and overthrown , and their Mouths stopt by the Power of Truth in us , when they have gone about to overthrow it , and villifie us , by their perverse Gainsayings ? Thou mightest have taken warning from them , to have kept back and sav'd thy self from this cumber which by thy Perversness and busie meddling in thy false spirit , thou hast brought upon thee , had not Conceitedness , Pride and Presumption blinded thee ; and seeing thou hast been but a Pedant , under the Tutoring and Ministry of Presbyterians and Independants : What Conquest think'st thou now to gain ? And what Name or Title dost thou go under ? Art thou a Presbyterian , or a Presbyterian-Independant , or both ? May we not rather look upon thee to be an Antinomian , Presbyterian , and Independant ? But indeed , thy spirit appears to be that of a ridged reviling Presbyter : However , thou should'st in Policy and Prudence have sit in silence , to have seen what success and end thy Tutors or Masters would have had in their warring against us , before thou hadst thus busied thy self , or taken upon thee thus severely to judge us ; and Me in particular , that I am not in any measure a Partaker of that Living Faith the Holy Men lived and died in ; Which Judgment I value not , but trample upon it in the Power of the true Light , and am over all thy Confusion and Nonsensical Scribbling , or what thou canst scribble against me , or the Truth testified by me , which stands over thy head , and the heads of all such peevish , perverse , and pittiful Gainsayers as thou art , who hast sufficiently manifested whose off-spring thou ar● , and whose work thou ar● in ; and accordingly shall be rewarded . I pass by much of thy fruitless stuff , and impertinent Tautologies ( whereof a Vollumn might be made ) as not worth repetition , or divulging . G. W. A Postscript . IF R●bert Gordo● will devise and frame any thing , for R●ply to what is here written ; I only desire this Civility and Reason●ble thing of him , That he wou●d be ple●sed , not to inter-line nor mistake my words , nor ●y down things in my Name , which I never writ nor i●tended , as he h●th done in divers Particulars ( to the great ●buse both of Truth , and Me as one concerned in it ) mo●e th●n I have ( as yet ) mentioned : But I request , th●t he would state my own words ( as I have his , both in Sentences and Clauses ) and not divulge Forgeries in my Name to Fight with . For we perceive by his two Pamphlets , and his many vain Repetitions , and I●pertinencies therein ; that he is as in a Whirle-Pool , and hath already brought forth the bottom of his matter ( as to Doctrine and Vindication ) and can bring forth no profounder Opposition , but a vain Repetition of the Old , unless that some more Reproachful Rusty stuff remaineth behind in him , and his Associate Apostates , to be brought forth , as further to give occasion for his and their Inveterate Revengeful spirits to be made manifest . However , Though 't is not my Principle to st●ive for Strife , nor for the last Word ; yet I am not willing to acq●iess under such Abuses , wher● TRUTH is so deeply concerned . Though ( I thank God ) I can both pass by , and bear , many Personal R●flections and Injuries . G. W. An Aditional Postscript , BY George Keith to Robert Gordon . R. G. ALthough thy Part to me be answer'd by another , yet there are some things which I find fit a little to touch ; I had indeed much in my heart , for Truth 's sake , to lay open the Emptiness , Weakness , and Inconsistency of this thy work against us ; but being prevented by another concern'd with me therein , much of what I have to say may remain unto a further occasion . Thy way of Reasoning against me , as having nothing from the Lord to answer thee , or proving rebellious , in not delivering it , because I did not communicate it unto thee , by word of Mouth , or writing , is vain and frivolous ; it was deliver'd thee in Print by one of my Friends , viz. G. L. and seeing thou camest forth in Print against us ( though under a Cover ) what ground hadst thou to expect another way of answering , then by Print ? And although I was in the same Town with thee , yet I left the Town , and the Nation also , before it was Printed ; so I could not send thee it in Print , and in Writing it was not convenient ; but I left it with Friends , to be given thee in Print , as was accordingly done : And however thou so positively deny'st that I had any thing from the Lord to answer thee ( in thy presumptious carnal Confidence ) yet in the Day of the Lord , that shall over-take thee , it shall be known unto thee , that I had it from the Lord , in Love to thy Soul. Thy alledgance that our Principles are inconsistent ( without further probation ) will have no more weight with sober men , then that the Earth is inconsistent , because it may seem so to a man Drunk with Wine , to whom all things seem to reel and stagger ; so Principles , never so consistent and solid , may seem as inconsistent to thee , and such as may be Drunk with a spirit of Giddiness and Levity ; whereas the inconsistency is in such men's spirits , and not in our Principles . What thou writest of a Fourfold Combination against thy Testimony , as thou call'st it ; and our making such a stir about it , and printing together against it , as for our very lives ; and thy giving us names in a vain and scornful mind , as if thou seem'st to glory ; is weak and groundless . G. L. p●●lish'd nothing of his in Print against thee : A. R. only writ a few Lines to thee , as being thy old Acquaintance , rather indeed regrating thy Condition , then entring into a Dispute with thee ; and but touching at two or three things passing by : And G. W. did little more but set thy Contradictions before thee , which as yet stand over thy head unanswer'd ; thou having not so much as assay'd any Answer unto them ( but telling us , He or we might no less charge Contradictions upon the Apostle Paul ; thus fathering thy gross Confusion , and Contradiction upon him ) So thy Book was upon the matter almost wholly left upon me , that thou needest not have made such a Noise of a Fourfold Combination ; and there was no great stir made about it by us ; however , thou may'st have apprehended so , by the stir in thy own spirit ; not unlike a man diseas'd with the Megrum in his head , that imagins he heareth great Noises and Stirs abroad ( when all is quiet ) because of the Distemper within himself . The whole substance and strength of my Answer unto thy first remains in force against thee , who hast wav'd the most material things in it ; only nibling at some things , when thou seem'st to thy self , thou wouldst get something to say ; for Proof of which , I refer the Readers to one impartial Examination of both . In thy fourth Page , Part 1. to A. R. thou abusest my worde , taking occasion from a small Error in the Printing , which is a disingenious way of dealing ; and had not thy prejudice blinded thee , thou might'st easily have corrected it by the sense : Thy abuse of me is in these words , that thou citest my words thus , Yet the Soul , yea and the whole man , is to be saved within ; whereas my words were thus , Yet the Soul , yea and the whole man , is to be saved , with , in , and through the Seed , whoever believe in Christ , and are joyned to him — The Error in Printing is , that within was put for with , in ; and upon thy own Mistake and Abusing me , thou raisest a Callumny , as if I held , That the full Salvation was only from sin within ; whereas I said , The whole man was to be sav'd ; and I say still , not only the Soul , but the whole Man is to be sav'd , both from sin , and all the effects and consequences of it , whether inward or outward : And the Redemption of the Body , and the Resurrection , I do believe according to Scripture , contrary to what thou falsly insinuatest against me . And whereas thou queriest , By what Scripture can I prove that Christ died for a Seed in man that needed Redemption , which Seed is Christ in every man ? Answer , Thou abusest our words herein , which are not that Christ needed Redemption , but that he redeems his Seed which he taketh upon him ; but Christ died for men , that men who were dead might become alive ; and no other way can men live , but by having Christ to live in them , Gal. 2.20 . And the Life of Christ in the Saints is in a rais'd Seed ; he who was crucified in them ( who could not be crucified in them , but as in the Seed ) coming to live in them ; but if thou wert not ignorant of this Birth , thou wouldst not propound such an ignorant Question ; and the Scripture speaketh expresly of Christ , as having been crucified in some , as Gal. 3.1 . crucified in you ; and 1 Cor. 2.2 . crucified in you ; for so are both places in the Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; And said Christ , Joh. 6 39. This is the Fathers Will , which hath sent me , that of all which he hath given me , I should lose nothing , but should raise it up again at the Last Day . Now what it is that whereof he should lose nothing , but should raise it up at the Last Day ? That I slight the Work of Man's Redemption , or what Christ did or suffer'd in order thereunto is falsly charg'd upon me , nor dost thou produce the least ground for it : Did I slight his Redemption , because I said , in Contradiction to w●at thou didst alledge on us , That it was not without respect to Christ , as outwardly Born and Crucified ; I said also more , and could say more ; but what was said , was enough to clear us of thy false Accusation . Pag. 10. Thou alledgest , I did not in my first , tell what further tendency the Sufferings , Testimony , and Example of Christ had unto our Reconciliation , then that of Paul 's , or any other Martyr's . Answ. That is false ; both G.W. and I expresly affirm'd , That he was a Sacrifice ( most acceptable and satisfactory ; so said G.W. yea , and W.P. in his Book , said as ●uch , whom thou falsly hast accus'd ) and a Ransom , a Propitiation , and Offering for the sins of the whole World ( but not that men should be justified while in their sins , but in having forsaken them ) yea , in the very next two pages thou confessest , That we have mention'd him an Attonement , a Sacrifice , a Propitiation for Mankind in his Sufferings and Death in the outward ; and this is more then Paul , or any , or of all the other Martyrs were ; and had a greater and more weighty service and tendency then the Sufferings of all others ; for of none else can it be said , that is true of him , who is the universal Offering , Attonement , Propitiation . How ● art thou not asham'd thus falsly to charge us , and yet a few Lines after , in contradiction to thy self , to clear us again ? Pag. 13. Thou accusest me , as unfaithfully repeating thy words , to make them speak what thou intend'st not ; but thou dost not mention one particular , wherein I have so done , nor canst thou ; only thou tell'st m● , That I leave out that part of the Sentence , in the Apostle's words , that is most weighty against me , viz. Being Reconciled . In Answer to which I say , That I did not leave out these words , as making against me ; and that I mention'd them not , was not on any such design ; but that the mentioning , or not mentioning of them , was not material to the thing in hand ; nor dost thou gain the least by these words , being reconciled ; for he doth not say so of any , while remaining Enemies , as being reconcil'd . And for a confirmation of thy false and confus'd doctrine , as , that Men , while yet enemies , and so remaining , before and without respect to any inward Operations of the Spirit of Holiness , are reconcil'd to God , and God to them : Thou abusest that Scripture , Rom. 5.10 . both corrupting it as it s in the English , and wresting it to a wrong sense ; 1st , in that thou addest the word ( yet ) as importing , A remaining Enemies , which ( yet ) is not in that verse , Rom. 5.10 . 2d , that thou draw'st from this place , That God is fully reconcil'd to them , while yet remaining Enemies : Whereas the Scripture saith not , When we were Enemies , God was reconcil'd to us ; but thus , as it is in the English , When we were Enemies , we were reconiled to God : And that the Apostle cannot understand , that they were reconcil'd to God , while remaining Enemies , is manifest ; because he inviteth Enemies to be reconcil'd to him ; which imports , they were not already reconcil'd to him : Yea , thou grantest , That it is a Qualification on our part , as to receiving the Attonement , that we be reconcil'd to God. But because the English Translation , at first view , seemeth to favour thee , I shall therefore refer thee and others , who have any skill in the Greek to the Greek Text , and you will find the words run thus , If we being Enemies ( Graece 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) were reconcil'd to God , &c. this doth not import , that they were both Enemies and reconconcil'd at one and the same time , more then it imports that , where it is said , Eph. 2.1 . And you , being dead in your sins , &c. hath he quickned ( for so it is in the Greek , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) that they were dead and quickned at one and the same time ; both Expressions importing , not a remaining Enemies , & dead ; but a passing from being Enemies , and dead , to be quickned and reconcil'd : And that it is said , We were reconcil'd by his Death , implyeth , that his Death had an influence in order thereunto ; but not that we were then , at his Death , fully and perfectly reconcil'd , as R.G. affirmeth ; for we are said to be sanctified through the offering of the Body of Jesus , &c. Yet who will say , we were then sanctified ? Pag. 15. Thou desir'st me to ask the Boyes in the Grammar School , whether was reconciling , and hath reconciled , do not both denote a time past ? Saying , that I am very hard put to it . Ans. If thou ( not I ) hadst not been put hard to it , thou wouldst not have fled to such a weak Refuge ; and seeing thou appeal'st to the Boyes of the Grammar School , let them determine , whether was reconciling ( though denoting a time past ) doth denote or signifie , the imperfect time , or perfect , yea , or nay ; and whether it signifieth the action perfectly done , ended , & compleated , as thou insinuatest , that our Reconciliation was then d●ne sixteen hundred years ago ? Will not the Boyes of the Gammar School tell thee , that that it is in imperfect time ; and signifieth the Action begun , but not ended or perfected ? And God was in Christ , reconciling men to himself ever since the Fall in all Ages , both before and since Christ suffer'd in the outward ; having given them , or put in them , the Word of Reconciliation ; by which they , who became renew'd thereby , were reconcil'd and justified in all Ages : But according to R. G's . doctrine , no men were justified nor reconciled , until Christ suffer'd Death in the outward ; because then , and not till then , was Reconciliation and Justification wrought , done , &c. And here in thy 15th page I take notice of another piece of thy Self-confusion and Contradiction , as that thou say'st , Our Reconciliation and Justification was fully done , perfected , accomplish'd at Christ's Death without us , and is not to be done or wrought over again in any man : And yet in Contradiction thou say'st , To make our Reconciliation effectual in every man , we are as a Qualification on our part , &c. requir'd , invited to be reconcil'd to God. Then according to thee , it must be made effectual in men ; and yet thou deny'st , that it is to be made or wrought within any men , it being already fully done ; And if it was fully done before , was it not effectual , before ? Or if it be not effectual , till it be made so in us , was it not in-effectual before ? And if it was in-effectual , it was not fully done : What Confusion and Contradiction ! Effectual in-effectual , all done , wrought , yet not made effectual ; we reconcil'd to God , yet as a Qualification on our part , we are to be reconcil'd , Pag. 16. Thou chargest me with a Self-contradiction , because I said , The full and perfect Redemption was in Christ , while we were Enemies : But herein thou show'st thy self weak ; for I say still , Our full and perfect Redemption was in him , while we were Enemies , so was our full and perfect Sanctification , Wisdom , Righteousness ; yet it followeth not that we are Redeem'd , Sanctified , Wise , and Righteous , till ( as it is in him so ) it be receiv'd by us ; for it is the receiving it that giveth us the denomination of Redeemed , Sanctified , Wise , Righteous , as the Cloth becometh colour'd , by receiving the Colour , and not otherwise . Pag. 17. That the Works and Fruits of the Spirit , as Humility , Meekness , &c. are reckon'd by us , as the Ransom , the Price , the Mediaton , the Saviour , is a most false and unjust Charge ; nor do our Friend's words give thee the least ground for it : As for W.B. he said , Humility , Meekness , was a Mediator to asswage and stop Wrath in the Enmity-Seed ; but he said not , it was our Mediator betwixt God and Vs : So thou canst not be excus'd , from being a gross and unjust Perverter of his words : And if any have called Christ the Humility , it is not more then Paul said , That he , to wit Christ , was made unto us Wisdom , Righteousness , Sanctification , &c. and when Christ is call'd Humility , Righteousness , are not understood those particular Effects and Fruits of the Spirit , but that original & primative Righteousness , Verity , Humility , Truth , and Goodness , &c. that is Christ , as he is God , the fountain , goodness , truth , righteousness , &c. Pag. 18. Because Christ is call'd the One Offering , and that be once offer'd up ●is Body &c. Thou wouldst exclude him , as in us , from being one Offering , but herein thy work is vain ; for Christ Jesus is the one Offering still ; and though he offer'd up his Body outwardly but once upon the Cross , yet he remains still an Offering for us , within us : For he is a Priest forever , and every Priest hath somewhat to offer ; and he is both the Offering and the Priest , who liveth forever to make intercession for us . That thou alledgest of our Testimonies as dissagreeing , is false , nor hast thou ought to prove it ; but to corrupt G. W's . words by a deceitful interlining of them , as alledging on him , That he calls it a blasphememous opposing the omnipotency of God , &c. To assert any such necessary respect our Redemption hath to the Death of Christ , which last words are thine , not the words of G. W. Pag. 21. Thou cry'st out on it , as strange Doctrine , that I said , The Apostles preach'd Christ in the form of a Man ; yet they preach'd him also , and that more generally a Light to the Gentiles : Then thou ask'st , Was he not a real Man. Answ. Yea , he was a real man , and is ; and it is a most false and unjust Charge , That we neither confess nor preach him as a man ; and that thou askest , Tell us plainly , what is become of that Man ? I say , he remains to judge thee for thy Lyes and false Accusations , against the Innocent ; and as for his Body , that thou queriest , he hath his Body , which is Spiritual , and Heavenly , and Glorious , to which our low body is to be made conform ; and the Body of Christ is but one , yet having many Members : and this Answer is given , not to gratifie thy bad spirit , but for the Truth 's sake , and for a service to the Simple-hearted . And that thou deny'st , That that was Christ , that took on him the form of a Man , and was manifest in Flesh : Do'st thou not herein plainly deny the true Christ ? For did not he , even Jesus Christ , take on him the form of a Servant , according to plain Scripture ? Did he not come in the Flesh ? and if he came in it , was he not in it ? and if he was in it , was he not manifest in it ? And if thou deny'st him come in the Flesh , art not thou an Antichrist ? Thou say'st , Not he manifest in that Body , but thou art the Son of God , p. 19. Oh blasphemous and contradictory to thy self ! Do'st thou not expresly say , in thy Testimony , pa. 38. That he is a Christ near us , wrap'd up in our very flesh and blood , the Seed of the Woman , meaning in that Flesh he appear'd in outwardly : And that thou deny'st , that he that was manifest in that Body , was the Son of God : Do'st thou not plainly deny his divinity ? Was he not the Son of God , before he took Flesh in the Virgin 's Womb ? Pag. 21. Thou bely'st me , that I said , The Apostles preach'd one way of Appearance of Christ to the Jews , and another to the Gentiles : whereas I said , He was preach'd a Light more generally both to Jews and Gentiles ; and the Apostles preach'd him as within men ; 2 Cor , 13.5 . Know ye not , how that Jesus Christ is in you ? That thou challenge it that one said , Christ was never seen with any carnal Eye ; thou hast no more ground then to challenge Himself , who said , He who hath seen me , hath seen the Father ; and yet he said to the Jews , who saw the outward Body of Jesus , You have neither seen him nor known him ; and many such places could be mention'd : And did not thy Darkness and Prejudice still blind thee , thou mightest understand better how Christ is seen , and how he is not seen : We deny not but the names , Messiah , Jesus , Christ , &c. were given to him as Man , even as in the Flesh ; but they do more eminently and more originally belong to him as he was before he took that Body on him ; yea , more immediately and more originally to the Word , the Light , the Seed , the Life , the Quickning Spirit , that dwelt in that Body , which he call'd , this Temple ; and it was call'd the Body of Jesus . Pag. 22. Thou deny'st , That either Faith or Works , wrought by us , or in us , by the Spirit of Christ ; are the previous , procuring , purchusing Cause of the Love of God to us , while Sinners , &c. Answ. And who ever said that they were ? This is but a pittiful waving and shifting the state of the Controversie ; they are needful as qualifications , requisite unto Justification and Life or eternal Happiness ; and that is the true state of the Question : And thus I prov'd in my former , citing Rom. 8.13 . and Rom. 10.8 , 9. to which thou hast answer'd nothing , but art mute as a Fish ; and these I recommend again unto the Readers , and particularly Rom. 10.8 , 9. compar'd with Deuteronomy 30 14. which require not only doing under the new Covenant , but such as is in order unto Salvation , summ'd up in these two general heads , to wit , Believing and Confessing , which is a work , and that not a bare one , but a living practical Confession , which includes in it our whole Obedience , and not only Faith , but Repentance , Conversion , and a turning from the Darkness to the Light , and from the power of Satan to God ; or requir'd in order to Forgiveness , Repent and be converted , that your Sins may be blotted out , said Peter , Acts 3.19 . and Acts 26.18 . to turn them from Darkness to Light , and from the power of Satan to God , that they may receive forgiveness of sins , and keep my Commandments , and live , said Wisdom ( Christ Jesus ) Prov. 7.2 . and Rev. 22.4 . Blessed are they that do his Commandments , that they may have right to the Tree of Life , &c. And here the Spirit is not preaching the first Covenant or Law , but the new . And as for Tit. 3.5 . it expresly mentions the washing of Regeneration , and renewing of the Holy Ghost ; which are the Works of the Spirit of Christ in us , by which we are sav'd , as said the Apostle ; though in thy Blindness , with the Priests , thou dost not observe it ; but bring'st it against us , which maketh very manifestly for us , and the Works that the Apostle opposeth to Grace are works of the Law , and not of Grace , which can never be opposite . Pag. 24. That with me , the first and second Covenant are in effect but one , is a false Charge ; though I must tell thee , That the Spirit , Life , or Light of the New Covenant , is universal , and was from everlasting , and reacheth through all Dispensations of God unto men , both before , under , and since the Law , and without it none could ever be sav'd ; and though the Manifestations and Ministrations of it were various , and more and more by degrees came forth , yet this Spirit , Life , or Light is still the same in it self and in its nature , extending in some degree to all , both Jews and Gentiles , to make them capable of Life and Salvation ; though many harden their hearts against it , that it hath not an Impression upon them , as upon those who believe and obey it , in whose hearts the Life of the New Covenant dwells , and the Laws thereof are written or engraven , as in Fleshly Tables , not stony Tables nor Hearts . Pag. 31. As for my Queries , which thou only makest a shew to answer , but indeed givest them a most pittious and slight go-by ; I return them upon thee , to be directly and plainly answer'd , in the tearms propos'd . Pag. 34. Thy Insinuations , That I seek a Hole to creep out at ; That I am ignorant of the Scriptures ; That I assert n●w Notions , receiv'd from other men , tending to the darkning and denying the joynt Testimony of the holy Men of God : I reject , as false and groundless , together with diverse other false Charges against me and my Friends ; and it is a small matter for us to be judged by one , who is over Head and Ears in the Mire of such Confusion and Contradiction , as thy Books hold forth : But that thou sayest it was none of thy work to prove , Christ come in the Flesh , or become Man ; Thou declar'st thy Impudency in so saying ; for Proof of which , let the Reader see in thy Testimony , so called , from pag. 17. to pag. 35. though to thy own Contradiction . G. K. The 3d Moneth , 1671. Some of Robert Gordon's corrupt Doctrines . 1. THat Christ without us , upon the Cross , hath already subdu'd all things , finish'd Transgression , made an end of Sin , abolish'd Condemnation and Death , pag. 4. of his testimony . 2. That the Light that enlightneth every man that cometh into the World , is not the true Christ , pag. 10. testim . 3. That Christ came to justifie and deliver us from the Law or Light in our Consciences , pag. 11. testim . 4. That Obedience to the Light in the Conscience , is but the Work of the first Covenant , and Righteousness thereof ; and that no man is justified thereby , p. 10 , 11. testim . 5. That God is fully attoned , perfectly reconcil'd to man , without any Consideration , Qualification , or Work to be wrought in any man , by any Light or Spirit whatsoever ; but singly and solely upon the account of the active and passive Obedience of the Man Jesus Christ of Nazareth , done in his crucified Body without us , pag. 12. testim . 6 That Redemption , Justification , and Reconciliation , is finished and compleated by what Christ did and suffered outwardly [ And so , according ●o R. G. all men are redeemed , justified , reconciled , Christ having dy'd for all ; as he expresly affirmeth in his second Book ] pag. 12. testim . 7. That our Salvation is wrought by Christ , in what he did and suffer'd outwardly ; and our wor●ing out of our Salvation , is only as to Evidence and Manifestation [ And so according to R. G. all men are sav'd , Christ having died for all , but it is not made evident to all , that they are sav'd ] pa. 12. testim . 8. That Redemption Justification were finished and compleated in the crucified Body in Christ for us , not in our persons , pag. 3 , 4. testim . 9. That the Lord did not direct man to the Light in his Conscience , nor to Light and Power ; but promis'd him another kind of Saviour , p. 18. test . That the Worker of Rede●ption could not be the Light inlightening every man , p. 21. test . 10. That the Light in our Consciences , that shews good and evil , is not given for Righteousness , nor able to reveal or give L●fe , any more then the Law written in Tables of Stone . 11. That a Believer is pure , beautiful in Christ , walking in Rest , Victory , and Perfection ; yet in himself in his body he hath a Law of sin ; he is in the Earth in Warfare and Imperfections , pag. 16. testim . 12. That Redemption , &c. and all things , are wrought , purchas'd , &c. for us , without the help of any thing to be wrought in us , pag. 3 , 4 , 5 , 20. testim . 13. That Christ did break through , fulfil , and satisfie stirred up Wrath in God ; which , he saith , would hold me captive in Death ; intending that thereby they might be acquitted and justified , and so escape with their Imperfections and Sins past , present , and to come , pag. 19 , 20. testim . pag. 15. 2 d Book . 14. That to Question , if it could be an Answer of divine Justice , to take Vengeance on the Innocent , and let the Guilty go free , with their sins past , present , and to come ; and then from this to ask , How can God , then in justice , execute Wrath , on any for sin , [ This R. G. counteth an arguing against God ] p. 14. 2 d Book . 15. That the Law , Sin , and Death , were charged upon Christ's crucified Body ; and that he buried them in his Grave , and thus abolished sin out of the sight of God , pag. 39. test . And that therein he vanquish'd and buried in his Grave all the powers that were against us , p. 26. test . 16. His Argument for Imperfection or against Perfection in this Life ) is Marrying , Sickness , Mortality , &c. as in his 2 d Book and Part to G. W. 17. He insinuates , as if what Christ did and suffer'd without us , was the previous , procuring , purchasing Cause of the Love of God to us , while Sinners , pag. 22. 2 d Book . 18. That he that was manifest in that Body , born of the Virgin Mary ( and within us ) is not ( the true Christ Jesus ) the Son of the Living God , pag. 19. 2 d Book . Also most of these aforesaid corrupt Doctrines are repe●ted over again in his 2d Book . Some of R. G's . Lyes and false Accusations against us . 1. That we deny the Mystery of God in the Flesh of Christ , as a matter of any necessity to us , as to R●demption , Reconciliat●on and Justifica●ion , pag. 5. testim . 2. That we hold our Justification to be without respect to the true Christ , and our only Saviour Jesus Christ of Nazareth , and without respe●t to what Christ did for us , in his Body without us , pag. 5. testim . 3. That we make Christ to be no better then the Priest and Levite , only looking upon us and passing by , leaving us an Example , wherein , if in p●rfect Obedience , we follow'd him , we should live ; and so departed , leaving us undone , as he found us , to cure redeem , and reconcile our selves to God by obedi●nce to the Light plac'd in our Consciences , convincing us of sin , pag 15. testim 4. That our Doctrine asserts another Christ , another Saviour , then him , Jesus Christ of Nazareth , pag. 17. 5. That according to our Doctrine , Redemption is only of the Seed within , that lies under condemnation , p. 24. test . & p 4. 2 d book . 6. That we make our selves equal with Christ , pag. 36. test . 7. That we reckon it a poor low thing to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth , as our only Saviour , pag. 40. testim . 8. That we suppose our selves to find access to the Glory of the Father , without this man Christ Jesus , our Mediator , p. 41. test . 9. That we have trod under foot the Son of God , and counted the Blood of the Covenant an unholy thing , as the Blood of any ordinary Man or Beast , p. 24. testim . And in his second Book . 10. That Christianity it self , in its very Foundation , is struck at by us , and deny'd , Preface ; and that some among us bring in damnable Errors , to pervert the Faith of some . 11. That the n●w present glorified existence of that Body ( or Man Christ ) that suffer'd at Jerusalem , is deny'd by some Teachers among ●s , pag. 2. 12. That the full and compleat Salvation , is only a Salvation from sin within [ False ; for it is both from sin , and all the effects and consequences of it , within and without ] pag. 4. 13. That according to G. F. the Soul needeth no Salvation , as being infinite , without beginning , a part of God [ which G.F. speaketh not all these things of the soul of man , but of the Breath or Spirit of Life , that made Adam a living soul , that is the Soul or Life of the soul ] pag. 5. 14. That it agreeth with the Doctrine published by G. F. That the Life in Man and Beast is God , and all in us is God ; denying the real individual Existences of Angels , Saints , Devils , or wicked men in Eternity , pag. 27. 2 d book . [ a most gross Slander ; for all that is in men is not God , neither that which defileth , nor any part of man , that is or can be defiled ; nor deny we either the real or particular Beeings of Angels , Saints , Devils , or wicked men in Eternity , as most wickedly he doth scandalize us . ] 15. That it is not allowed to our Friends , to question and examine the doctrine deliver'd to them , by the antient Friends of the Ministry , pag. 8. 16. That Christ , in offering up himself , is an imperfect insufficient Propitiation , pag. 16. 17. He insinuateth , That we hold , that the Works wrought in us by the spirit , are the Ransom , the Attonement , the propitiatory Sacrifice , and ground of our h●pe for eternal Life , p. 17. & 12. 18. That the man Christ Jesus of Nazareth , to be the true and only Christ , G. K. doth not confess , pag. 19. 19. He alledgeth , That our Friends have put some out of their Synagogues for openly confessing Christ , calling them Pharisees , and in a vain and evil mind thus bespeaking G. K. is it because he was hanged upon a Tree that thou art asham'd to own him as Saviour , & c ? or rather , art thou affraid to confess him , because of the Pharisees ? pag. 20. 20. That according to G. K. the first and second Covenant are in effect one and the same , pag. 24. 21. That G. K. is against the holy Law of God , p. 25. [ False ; is he or we against it , because we say , it is writ in the heart , and doth bind unto obedience , as is written there , and that the obedience only acceptable unto God , is that which is given in the newness of the Spirit , and not in the oldness of the Letter . ] 22. That th●re is a Light in every man , as he cometh into the world , by natural Generation , that is saving , pag. 28. 23. That we would preach to the Indians nothing , but what they knew already , pag. 43. G.R. for these thy lyes and thy many gross abuses against the Truth and its Witnesses , the Righteous God will rebuke and judge thee . Note . Some other Friends , who are R. G's Country-men , have a further reserve against him , whereby he may be further discover'd in his false Colours , Turnings , Twinin●s , Hypocrisies , Shiftings , Self-contradictions , as he shall again further appear against the Truth , and them concerned in it . G. K. Ingenious Reader , KNowing that the Errors of the Press , ought not to be imputed to the Author ; thou art desir'd to correct these , as here directed . Page , Line , Error , Corrected . 4 3 divinity dignity   4 dignity divinity 8 Mar. pro & ito prope & ito note . 10 5 souls blood 14 18 fest fect 16 11 particulars particles 17 29 would could 19 29 are you art thou 20 9 Law Love 22 1 are is 27 9 dare do   33 to know must know 29 13 as yet and yet 34 22 dele of   35 9 our Priests your priestly 38 7 et let   33 one sentence is printed twice , dele the latter . 41 22 imaginary imaginarily   32 existent existence . 56 14 Ep phraditus Epaphraditus 58 4 mistake mis-state 65 1 dele that   71 19 hold me hold men     the word Blaspemy in the Margent , place opposite to these words , viz. Arguing against God. THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65874-e110 Mica . 5.2 . * Propitio ex pro & pio ( non imp●o ) Propiti us ex pro & ito . Notes for div A65874-e2090 Eph. 3.5 . * He now hopes and waits for Salvation after the bodily death : see his Sottishness and Confusion ; at other times it was perfectly wrought at once without , or else purchas'd ( he knows not which ) at Jerusalem ; but now he hope for it after his bodily death . Ah! the Hypocrites hope shall perish . Note Note Notes for div A65874-e4700 * Why did he not call Mary the Mother of God ( as Papists do ) which to be sure is not Scripture Language ? Job 36.26 . Psa. 1●9 . 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , &c. * The Sun and its Light being under Limitation ; so is not the Light of the Son of God. Job 10.14 . * Such as the Presb●ters and Independants suppose Christ to have made in our stead , b● undergoing vin●ictive Justice at the Hand of his Father , as they vainly imagine . Note Notes for div A65874-e12170 Deceit . Blasphemy . 
A65881	----	The Quakers plainness detecting fallacy in two short treatises : I. The first in answer to an abusive epistle, styl'd, The Quakers quibbles, and the comparison therein between the Muggletonians and the Quakers, proved absurd and unjust, II. The second, being a brief impeachment of the forger's compurgators (in their Quakers appeal answered) whose injustice, partiality and false glosses have given the chief occasion of these late contests / by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1674 Approx. 109 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 45 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65881 Wing W1949 ESTC R38608 17807055 ocm 17807055 106644 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. 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Muggletonians -- Controversial literature. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-05 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-07 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2005-07 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Quakers Plainness DETECTING FALLACY IN Two Short Treatises : I. The First in Answer to an Abusive Epistle , styl'd , The Quakers Quibbles ; and the Comparison therein between the Muggletonians and Quakers , proved Absurd and Vnjust . II. The Second , being a brief Impeachment of the Forger's Compurgators [ in their Quakers Appeal Answered ] whose Injustice , Partiality and false Glosses have given the chief Occasion of these late Contests . By George Whitehead . Ye have eaten the Fruit of Lyes , Hos. 10.13 . Printed in the Year 1674. Unprejudiced Reader , IF the TRUTH could have been overcome by Falshood , or buried under Reproaches , or stopt with Popular Clamours , or undermined by the secret Combinations of its Adversaries , or supprest by Injustice and Partiality ; I confess , these implacable and envious Men , who are chiefly concerned against us , would have the Day , and their Iniquity been triumphant and remained uncontroulable : But such their Weapons and Engines ●●ve not prevailed , nor ever shall effect the Enemies Designs against God's Cause or Heritage . Had they been Men of Tender Conscience , or respected the Honour of Religion more then Interest and Popular-Fame , they would not have given us Occasion for these publick Contests , neither by abetting a manifest Forger , nor by lying Pamphlets or false Relations that they so frequently bring forth , and cause to be spread against us : But their hard Hearts , their fretful striving Spirits vent forth their Envy , and declare their Spleen and Ill-will towards us , only that they want Power to effect their Revenge upon us ; to evince this I could give divers Instances , that an Inveterate Persecuting Spirit hath long been , and yet lives and works in divers of these Baptist-Teachers and Leaders ; such as cannot suffer Persecution themselves for their Religion , but a little Storm or small Gust would blow them into their Holes and Obscurities again , and yet they seem to envy the Liberty , and grudge the Prosperity of others ; we have Cause to think , that even Ours is as an Eye-Sore to them : If they urge me herein , I doubt not but I can particularly demonstrate it , and in some Measure shew the Antiquity of their persecuting Envy ; and of late their Outrage is ominous of their Decrease , Confusion and Ruin : I am sensible the secret Hand of God hath been , and is at Work against this Perverse Generation , because of their Hypocrisie and Envy against us his People : And how do they Revile , Infamize , Baite and Bark at that Sincere-hearted and Zealous Man William Penn ? What Libels , Pamphlets , Books , Squibs , Cantings , Jeers , Silly Drolls and Railing have his Adversaries ( Baptists and their Assistents ) let fly at him , as Men full freight with Envy , by all which both He and many more are but the more confirmed against them and their Way , resolving ( if they were otherwise to seek ) they would never be Dipt by these Baptists into their Spirit , Religion or Church . Of late I have met with a very partial and scornful Pamphlet , styled , The Quakers Quibbles , said to be set forth in an Expostulatory Epistle to W. Penn ; unto which I thought meet to write this following brief Tract ; though it be not directed to me , I am concerned for the Truth and People of God , being both abused through the Envy and Folly of their Confused Adversaries : We find the said Pamphlet subscribed with the Name , Thomas Thompson , p. 26. And in Conclusion , Thomas Thompson , whether this be the Real Author's Name some question ; however , some of the Baptists have commended and promoted his Work , as an Ingenuous Piece , who have pretended themselves ignorant of the Author of it : but whatever he be , he writes like a Confident Controuler of W. P. and the Quakers , and would seem to be somebody ; but his Complement of Sir , and thou Sir , and thou , &c. as also , Mountebank , Fool , &c. with much more such Language to W. P. looks but oddly ; a strange Way of complementing from such a Person as would be thought a Moderator and Indifferent Pen ! But whoever the Author be , his Work will further declare what dark Spirit it came from , and that it much resembles that of a Prejudiced , Angry Anabaptist , only disguised and mixed with a little of different Style and silly Drollery : However , he and these Baptists that so much envy us , and out of their Pride and Emulation would be smiting at W. Penn , because of his Testimony for the Truth among us , and his Zeal against Truth 's Adversaries , they do but strive and quarrel in vain ; and I must tell them , there was a Hand of the Lord in raising him up ( as also will appear in many more ) to bear Witness against such a stingy Generation of Hypocrites and Apostates , as of late do busy themselves and take Counsel together like malicious Incendiaries against us , and their Counsel God will bring to nought , and scatter the Proud in their Imaginations ; yet I have a secret Sadness and Sorrow of Spirit because of the great Loss , Declension & Apostacy that divers , even of these Baptists are fallen into . On the former Zeal for Religion , Tenderness of Conscience and Desires after an Experimental and Inward Knowledge of the Spirit , Power and Work of God that were stirring in many ( when they were in a Low and Suffering Condition ) which now they have lost , and the Zeal of several turned into Enmity , and they grown Cold and Dead in the Earth and Spirit of the World ! yet there is a Remnant among them , whom the Lord will visit and gather out , as those other Sheep that desire to return to the great Shepherd and Sheepfold , from off those Barren Hills , and out of those Empty Professions , and Dead Forms , and Shadowy Observations under which the Souls of many yet lye starving and pining , for want of the True and Heavenly Bread , which is in the Father's House . G. W. THE Quakers Plainness DETECTING FALLACY . Section I. Of the Partiality and Confusion of the Pamphlet , styled , The Quakers Quibles , and the Authors Hypocrisie and Envy . WHereas the Author of the Pamphlet ( whoever he be ) styles himself , an Indifferent Penn , and would appear to be a very meek & moderate man , assuring us he is neither Baptist nor Quaker , p. 37. implying that he is an Impartial Person between both : But now , let the serious Reader consider and judge of this Man's Moderation and Ingenuity , who instead of impartially relating Matters of Fact ( for others to judge of ) all along bears upon the Quakers with hard Language , Jeers , Taunts and Canting Quibles comparing W.P. with a Jesuite in his Oration , and to a Mountebank or Stage-Player , accusing him with Shuffles , Railing , Clamour , less Railing at Billingsgate ; the Author of a Lye , not only a Fool , his unjust ; and us , his Friends , with Foll , Immoderation , Rancor , Malice , Obstinacy , Vnreasonableness , not to say Madness , Passion , ●●gling , Refractoriness , Ridiculous Fanc●●s , Weak●●ss , Q●●bling , base old Way of Evasion and Sh●f●ing , perverse Generation , obstinately confident , and confidently obstinate , without Order or Rule , Rime or Reason , Fools fit for n● Man to dispute with except some of Muggleton 's Disc●ples , Billingsgate Rhetorick , misterious Subtit●●es , &c. Unjustly and wickedly comparing Muggleton and the Quak●rs , or the Quakers and Muggletonians , insinuating , that both of them may be Impostors ; for its possible , saith he , and all this to render us as odious as may be . How now Baptists ! is this your indifferent Penn and ingenuous Writer ? Can you think he hath well palliated Matters , either with Indifferency , Moderation or Impartiality between us ? Or that such Work will make a Pacification , or end the Controversie ? No , no ; such deceitful Dealing and hypocritical critical Pretences will stand you in no stead . And pray further observe how inconsistent your indifferent Pen is with himself in his self-Contradictions ; as , 1. Between his commending W.P. for an excellent Rhetorician and fluent Tongue ; and so was Cicero , p. 6. And his telling us , You give Occasion to Persons to think and judge you a perverse Generation , without Order or Rule , Rime or Reason , p. 25. Was Cicero such an one then ? 2. Between his proposing , that if W. P. had this Gift of a fluent Tongue and good Voice meerly by turning Quaker , and not partly natural , and partly acquired at Schools , that would more convince him of the Truth of W. P ' s Christianity , &c. p. 7. And his confessing , That good Saint Paul saith , Though I speak with the Tongues of Men and Angels , and have not Charity I am become as sounding Brass or a tinkling Cymbal , p. 9. So then it is Charity , not the Gift of Tongues , that is a certain Proof of Christianity . 3. Between his saying , Thou madest thy self the Author of a Lye , and shewdst thy self not only a Fool , but Vnjust , p. 13. And saying , To say it is a Lye , that is neither Answer nor Argument ; therefore in Love I should advise thee to leave off all such Billins-gate Rhetorick and gross Language . See here how he hath condemned that as Billings-gate Rhetorick and gross Language which himself hath used . 4. Between his saying to W.P. Perhaps thou art of a different mind from some of thy Friends as it is reported , thou hast brought them off from some ridiculous Fancies , p. 20. And speaking of W. P.'s being engaged with such a People , and having received their Principles , thereby thinking himself oblieged now to maintain them , p. 26. How should he so differ with us ( his Friends ) being engaged with us , and oblieged to maintain our Principles ? Which we doubt not of his Sincerity in , whatsoever be here insinuated to the contrary . Now after the great Noise these Baptists have made against us , as being no Christians , and the several Attempts made to prove us none ; as also their begging Questions , and calling for an Evidence to prove our selves Christians , and not telling us what Evidence ; the Author of the Quakers Quibles proposeth something as Evidence , in order to convince him of W. P's Christianity ; and what must that be ? but the Gift of Tongues immediately inspired , which he saith , the Members of the true Church in the Apostles Time had , and that if he can shew any one in our Church that hath such a Gift or Gifts given him upon his Conversion to our Way , it would put a clear Difference betwixt him and the Baptists , &c. p. 7. Also he asketh , Where is the Demonstration of the Spirit with thee in Power and mighty Signs ? p. 9. What say you Baptists to this Proposal ? Must this conclude the Controversie between you and us , that if we can produce such a Sign or Evidence , it shall be taken as a Proof of our Christianity ; but if not , then no Christians ? And who then shall escape your Censure in this Case that have not the Gift of Tongues immediately inspired ? Have not the Jesuites in this wise argued against the Protestants and reformed Churches , calling for some such Sign or Miracle to ascertain them of their being the true Church , or led by the Spirit , otherwise have urged them to return to the Church of Rome ? And at this rate how will you Baptists escape your own Condemnation of being no Christians or Members of Christ's Church , if you cannot exhibit such an Evidence as the Gift of Tongues inspired among you ? But to say , the Members of the true Church ( that is , in general without Exception ) had that Gift , is a great Mistake ( though some had ) see 1 Cor. 12.28 , 29 , 30. And what if God will not bestow such Gifts and Signs now ; must we therefore be no Christians ? But for ought he can learn , our Friends and Church is as low , poor , naked and destitute herein as the Baptists Church ( viz. as to such former Signs and Wonders ) p. 8. And what follows ? Are we not therefore the true Church ? Are the Baptists willing to be thus concluded on this Ground ? By that Accusation ( viz. Whilst you are both in the dark , you wrangle and fight , confute and confound one another to little Purpose , p. 8. ) He hath condemned the Baptists as well as us for wrangling and fighting in the dark , &c. It were well , they would as well see themselves thus reproveable herein , as promote the said Pamphlet as such an ingenuous excellent Piece , whereby however they intimate to the World , that they are not come into the Light , but are wrangling and fighting in the dark . But what Clamour ? what Noise ? what Tautologies ? what Disorder ? what Discord ? what Confusion — your Vnchristian Carriage , &c. p. 10. Oh partial Man ! many hundreds can testifie , that this Disorder , unchristian , yea , and uncivil Carriage , and frequent Interruptions ( to divert us from our Charge against T. H. ) were stirred up against us by our Adversaries , as I never met with Disorder and unfair Dealing from Priests or others , mall the Disputes I have been concerned in . Touching the Complaint of our giving Occasion by a solemn Offer for Thousands of People to meet together and that to the Hazard of their Limbs and Lives , &c. p. 10. He tells us not who gave the Occasion of that Solemn Offer ; was it not the Baptists by their publick Meeting at Barbican before for T. H. his Purgation , and possessing the People against us , Boasting in our Absence , aggravated with several apparent Lyes spread the City and Countryes by the Baptists and their Agents against us , as purposely leaving the City , shifting the Meeting , being afraid to meet them , & c ? And why did not W. K. and the rest seriously consider , and prudently foresee the Danger of the Meeting at that Place , as also the Trouble that would follow upon them by such injurious and base Attempts against us in our Absence ? And indeed it was not prudently done in them to occasion and appoint point such a Meeting to be in such a slight and weak Meeting House as theirs at Barbican : Is it not well known that we proffered them a Meeting-House more secure , wherein there was no such Danger ? For two of us speaking at a Time , and crying hear , hear ( that was to hear him that was to speak ) p. 11. And what if many at once cryed , hear , hear ? that was intelligible , and there was need enough ; this was sometimes , when it was supposed that nighan hundred of the Anabaptists would clamor together , and make a hideous Noise and Bawling , to stop him that was about to speak ; and in such wise were we Beset , Interrupted , and Hector'd by their Companies in the Galleries , and near us , upon their Leaders Example , insomuch , that we must wait a considerable time ere we could be heard . The Charge of Shuffling and Bogling at one single Question , being afraid , &c. pag. 12. is unjust , and scornfully aggravated ; for though there was some Intermission before an Answer was given , it was not at all out of any Fear , or to Shuffle about it , but because 1 st , It was not W. P's place then to Answer Interrogatories and unscriptural Questions , when his Adversaries had given a Charge that we were no Christians , and upon the Proof , as they pretended , instead whereof they fell to Catechising us . 2 dly , And if we had not at that Time answered one Word to the Question , but held them to the Proof of their Charge , judicious Auditors would have held us excusable . To that of T. H's saying , Most of the Particulars he would prove from our Principles , and the rest by Testimonies , p. 13. he said , the rest by Consequence . Though here T. H. made a Stop , yet W. P. is charged with an Interruption , a Lye , a Fool and Vnjust , when he did not insist on the Matter ; see their disingenuous Carping and Reviling . Whereas many gross things were instanc'd and laid against him , wherein he had most falsly and abusively personated us , as so speaking and being our own Answers and VVords , and our Method and Manner of Reasoning * even in many Particulars , which he had neither Testimony for , nor are they deducible either from our Words or Principles . However if he say , He will prove them by Consequence ; this bewrayes his own Falseness in saying , They were the Quakers Answers ; when they were but T. Hicks's Forgeries sta●●d in our Name and Person . Sect. II. Of the Christ of God , &c. THat we have denyed Distinctions , p. 15. is false ; for true and reasonable ones we deny not . But if our Friends Words have not deceived this Man ( he saith ) we own nothing but the Divine Nature to be Christ , p. 16. Where proves he these Words to be ours ? Have we not plainly and often confest also , that the Divine , Nature or Word , cloathed with the most holy Manhood , and as having taken Flesh of the Seed of Abraham , was and is the Christ ? Yet we must own that if he was the Son of God before he took Flesh , he was Christ with respect to his Divine Nature , as proceeding from the Father ; and that he was the Son of God before , is not denyed that we know of , in which Respect he was not seen with Carnal Eyes , but with Respect to the Body which he took upon him in Time. And as for two Natures , viz. the Divine and Human united in one Person , being the Christ , p. 16. Then how consistent with this is it to say , that the Human Nature ( or Christ's Body of Flesh and Blood ) is Christ ? p. 17 , 18. Which is all one , as one while to say , that Christ is made up of a Divine and Human Nature ; another while of a Human Nature or Body , and yet that Body the Body of Christ. I must confess , that if you impose upon us a Creed in such Impropriety of Speech , and besides Scripture-Language and Phrase , or otherwise unchristian us , we must tell you , that untill you bring us plain Scripture that saith , the Human Nature is the Christ ( which Phrase some do conscientiously Scruple , at least , as being too low to entitle to the Christ of God ) we must rather patiently bear your Censure or Damnation , then deviate from Scripture-Language ( in our Creed ) which is , that Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh , that he is God , Man , the Son of God ; yea , and God manifest in Flesh , " that as Mediator betwixt God and Man , he is THE MAN Christ Jesus ; that Christ's Body of Flesh and Blood that was born of the Virgin - Mary , and that suffered , was crucified , dyed and rose again the Third Day , is called , The Body of Jesus , this Temple , and a Body hast thou prepared me ; was not this the Son speaking to the Father ? As for J. Ives's great Question so much insisted on , Whether Christ's Human Nature was a Part of Christ ? p 17. As it was not a Question in Scripture Phrase or Language , so it was as abruptly and sillily obtruded & begged instead of proving the Charge of our being no Christians : As also thus to divine Christ into Parts , is a Contradiction to the Human Nature being Christ. Pray you Baptists , before you conclude a final Sentence upon us , agree upon a consistent Creed that you intend to stand by , if you will impose upon us to believe as you believe in Matter and Form upon Pain of Excommunication , as Ethnicks or Heathens , and finally of Damnation , and then we may answer you further as we see Occasion , you having already attempted to excommunicate us from among all Christians chiefly about Words , * wherein as yet you have not stated a plain and congruous Form among your selves . And we need not think our selves oblieged further to answer you or defend our selves from your bare Charge of being no Christians , until you have given us such a formal Creed , and withal explain ; prove and reconcile these your Terms which you impose , question and strive about , & some of you have endeavourd to tye us up to answer Aye or No unto ; as about your Expressions , viz. Two Natures in one Person , the Christ. Christ's Human Nature Part of Christ. The Body that was seen with carnal Eyes , the Christ. Christ's Body of Flesh & Blood to be Christ , or Christ's Person . The true Christ a Person without us , or a Personal Being without us . But let it be further observed , that your Brother H. Grigg * confesseth [ of Jesus Christ the Son of God ] thus , viz. That he was of the same Essence or Substance with the Father & the holy Spirit , and that he had a PERSONAL EXISTENCE or Subsistence before he did assume our Nature , &c. See here they own a Personal Being of Christ before he assumed our Nature ; they should have agreed upon the Definition of Words Person , and Personal Existence , and Subsistence , and clearly explain them to us in their Nature and Property ; as also the Nature and Extent of the Word Human , both as they apply it to Body , to Nature , and as it relates to Man , and not darkly and dubiously to impose them upon us in their ●uestions , but rather be content with plain Scripture-Language , and Words which the Holy Ghost hath taught , which it seems these Men are not content with , as also appears , where W. Penn confest his Belief of Christ to be of the Seed of Abraham , yet God over all , blessed forever , &c. This was and is excepted against , as not direct to the Question , p. 18. Therefore upon their variable Terms about Christ , I Propose these few plain Questions , seriously asking them : 1. If the Son of God was not in Being in the Beginning , and from Everlasting ? 2. If he was not truly the Christ of God ( being the Son of God ) before he took Flesh upon him , or was born of the Virgin Mary ? 3. If Carnal Eyes could see him simply as the Eternal Son of God , or his Glory , as of the only begotten of the Father ? 4. Where doth the Scripture say , that the Human Nature is the Christ ? 5. Or that Christ is a Person or Personal Being , consisting of Human Flesh and Blood without us ? 6. Or that his Glorious Body in Heaven is a human Body ? 7. Whether the Man Christ Jesus , the Mediator , be really separate and remote from his Church or Members , so as not to be present in his Church here on Earth ? 8. If Christ be separate , remote or divided from his Church , how is he the Head thereof , or his Church a living Body without ( or divided from the Head ? ) If you profess you know Christ , do not impose your implicite Notions , unscriptural and uncouth Terms about him , but declare your Experience of him . Farther as to what we hold concerning the Christ of God , in Answer to his 20th Page . 1. Christ ( who was the Word in the Beginning ) in due Time came in the Flesh. 2. That though the meer Body of Jesus was not the entire Christ , yet the Name Christ , is sometimes given to the Body , though not so properly as to the whole Man Christ. 3. That God was in Christ , and the Father and Son are inseparable . 4. That the Distinction of Father and Son , is not only nominal ( as this Opposer implies against us ) but real in the divine Relation of Father and Son , the Son as being the only-begotten of the Father , and also known as Co-Workers in the Order and Degrees of Manifestation and Discovery . 5. The Man 's accusing the Quakers with this Doctrine , That the Father is the Son , and the Son the Father ; and so God the Christ of himself , and Christ the God of himself ; Somewhat like as Muggleton does in this Particular , p. 20. Though these are none of our Words , yet this favours of meer Ignorance and Envy ; we do not own any such Separation between God and Christ as these Words [ The Christ of himself , and the God of himself ] do imply , Socinian-like ; but that the Father is in the Son , and the Son is in the Father ; as also that the Son is the mighty God , the everlasting Father , the Prince of Peace ; see how plain it is , Isa. 9.6 . 6. That Christ is not a Person without us , p. 21. is not our Doctrine or Phrase that I know of or remember ; only that the Title is thought too low and unscriptural , to give to the Christ of God , many Men having Gross Apprehensions about the Phrase [ PERSON WITHOUT ] . But Christ is confest by us , both as without us , and within us . 7. We are charged that we must hold , That Christ dyed not , but only the Body that he assumed , that was prepared for him , p. 21. Now you Promoters of this Q. Quibbles , for an Ingenuous Pamphlet , I ask you if any more of Christ properly dyed then the Body ? Do you hold that his Soul , Spirit or his Divinity dyed ? If not , the Charge is foolish and silly ; if you do , then are you like Reeve and Muggleton , who have bla●phemously said , that Christ's Soul and Godhead-Life dyed , When as Christ's dying and being buried , 1 Cor. 15. was properly , that the Body dyed and was buried , to wit , the Body of Jesus : See Mat. 27.58 . Mark 15.43 , 45. Luke 23.52 , 46. and 24.3 . John 20.21 . As to what we say about seeing the Son of God spiritually and not carnally [ Or between the seeing him savingly , and not so seeing him , &c. ] The Man is hugely taken with J. Ives's Answer to our Distinction , That he cannot but own it to be very good and pertinent : Jeremy ' s Words were ( saith he ) That then I , or any man might say by the same Reason , that W. Penn or G. Whitehead was never seen with bodily or carnal Eyes , because the Excellency & better Part of them , viz. their Souls , was never seen , though their Bodies be seen , which is not the Man , p. 23. To which I reply ; It 's not improbable , that if we had made such a Comparison , you Baptists would have cryed out , O Blasphemy ! 1. To compare the Names W. Penn and G. Whitehead with the Name Christ. 2. To compare the seeing G.W. & W.P. with the seeing the Christ of God. 3. It implies , the Name of Christ to be no more excellent then the Name George or William ; Oh Ignorance in the Abstract ! 4. Did not the Name of Christ as well concern the more excellent Part or Divine Nature as the Manhood , and far Excell those fleshly or outward Names of Distinction given to us as meer Men and Creatures ? and that by Earthly Parents or Relations , and not from a Spirit of Prophecy , as to respect some divine Qualification or new Nature ? for that must have a new Name ; therefore I must look upon J. Ives's Answer and Similitude to be both impertinent and irrational . Sect. III. Our Opposer self-condemned ; his irreverent Quibbling about Christ ; and their Ignorance of the Spirit 's Evidence , who seek for Signs , &c. AS for your standing Gaping well nigh an Hour for an Answer , p. 24. If many of you had not gaped and hidiously bawled often to hinder our Answers , but had been civil , you had been more answer'd then you were . His Charge , That we are fit for no man to dispute with except some of Mugleton's Disciples , p. 25. is far enough from approving himself an indifferent Penn : But will the Baptists own this , that they are such as Muggleton's Disciples , when they propose for ( or admit of ) Disputation with us ? As for W. Penn's using the Words Lying and Forgery , and Lyar and Forger in his Books against Thomas Hicks ; this the Man accounts gros Language , that will hard●y stand with good Manners , nor suit with a civiliz'd man , much less with a good Christian ; and to say it is a Lye , is Billings-gate Rhetorick , more fit for Scoulds that are duck'd , &c. p. 25. This is made a very capital Crime with this Author , who bids us speak Evil of no man , but be gentle , shewing all Meekness , &c. And yet he himself calls W.P. the Author of a Lye , a Fool , unjust , p. 13. and calls us Fools , Obstinate , &c. and so hath condemned himself , both as a partial and a self-contradictory Pen. But why is W.P. the Author of a Lye ? The Pretence is for taking the Words out of T.H. 's Mouth before he had made an End of his Sentence ; as when he said , most of the Particulars he would prove ; W.P. then saying , most of them ? then not all ; which was upon a Stop that T.H. made there , as he and many others apprehended : Howbeit , when T.H. added , The rest he would prove by Consequence , W.P. insisted not on the first Words , but refused to admit of his Consequences , be having told the World in his Dialogue , that they were the Quakers Answers , &c. but this Writer against us , carps and traduces on every slight Occasions . Would the Baptists think it fair to be publisht in Print for Lyars , Fools and unjust on such an Account ? But for W.P. his accusing T. Hicks with being both a Lyar and Forger ; he hath both proved him such an one in his Books , and further urged to prove his Charge against him publickly , since his Abettors have endeavoured to cover and uphold him . But it seems it is the Language [ Lying and Forgery , and Lyar and Forger ] that is found Fault with here , and not the Application thereof , when as the Scriptures prove such Language ; as , Thou lovest Lying rather then to speak Righteousness ; ye are Forgers of Lyes , &c. See Psal. 52.3 . Job 13.4 . Joh. 8.55 . Rev. 2.2 . & 3.9 . & 21.8 . Tit. 1.12 . His accusing some of the Quakers with quibling as much about the Word Body , as about the Word Christ ; I look upon it as no better then quibbling against us , instead of proving us guilty by plain Scripture ; for to say , the Church of Christ is his Body , and that there is one Body and one Spirit , and that they that are joyn'd to Christ are Members of his Body ; this is according to Scripture-Language ; as also , that the Body is one , and hath may Members , so also is Christ ; and are not the Saints spiritually united into Christ , and unto his spiritual and glorious Body ? Is Christ Head of his Church in any other Body , then that whereof they are Members , and united to him ? And will this admit of Christ's being Head of two separate Bodies ; or of Three Christs ? as his stating the Distinction upon G. Keith , That Christ was most properly taken for the Divine Nature , less properly for the human Nature , & least properly for the Carkas● , pag. 28. whereas this is so far from G. Keith's proving Three Christs , that the words Human Nature and Carkass , were J. Ives's , not G. K's , as the first is herein granted , though G. Keith owns the words Divine Nature , Manhood and Body of Christ , and confess'd the Name Christ , to be given to the Body when crucified and dead , though less properly then to the Divine Nature and intire Manhood ; since that the Son of God was the Christ of God , before he took upon him the Body prepared for him , as J.I. hath granted in his Book , Inocency above Impudency , p. 37. By his Argument , That Christ is the Son of God , Ergo , the Son of God is Christ : & as I answer'd , though I could not be heard , that the Name Christ was mutually and reciprocally given in Scripture to the Body and Spi●it of Christ ; as , Christ dyed and was buried , when it was properly the Body of Jesus ; for his Soul or Spirit was immortal & did not dye , but was in Paradyse when his Body was buried ; and that Spiritual Rock which ●ll Israel drank of , was Christ. Doth the Scripture herein make Two Christs ? No sure ; No more will G.K. his Distinction bear Three Christs in Three d●stinct Persons , as the Man unscripturally and quibblingly words it , pag. 28. And further , It is very strange that W. P. in correcting the Baptists and others , to set up his own as the True Church , must be impos'd upon to produce some of those Gifts or Visible Demonstrations , or Eminent Signs , as were in the Church in the Apostles Dayes , pag. 29. and 9. when as he never made that a Reason , or Ground , to correct others for want of such Signs , as the Gift of Tongues , Miracles , &c. but for some Un-Christian Principle or Practice ; however in this Case our present Opposers do argue as exactly like the Jesuits & Papists against the Protestants , for correcting them , as if they had serv'd seaven Years at Rome . But let it be remember'd how the Baptists themselves were in this manner excepted against after their first Separation from other Churches , and gathering into a Church of their own : It was objected against them , If the Lord be with us , where be all those Miracles which our Fathers told us of ? Where be the Gifts of working Miracles which were in the primitive time , & c ? And what Defence did the Baptists make for themselves herein ? but that the seeking after , and Working Miracles in that outward way ( that is sometimes in Scripture spoaken of and that these men intend ) is not essential to a Believer , and so not to a Church , nor an Administrator . See p. 69. of their Book , entitul'd A Way to Sion , by D. King ; printed at London , & reprinted at Edinburgh , 1656. Also , That Miracles did not prove them Disciples ; That Miracles do not now distinguish a true Church from a false , Ibid. p. 135 , 136. Yet , as if they had quite forgotten these things , and the Oppositions and Sufferings which they formerly met withal , they bring their Adversaries Objections against us . And seeing if we should only tell men , We are in the Truth , the Light within them will testifie to our Way , it is demonstrable by the Effects ; & that we have the Spirit , and are in the Power of God , and that it is within , while the Baptists so say they have it ; as he saith p. 31 , 32. and that all this will not decide the Controversie , or manifest to our Opposer a real Discrimination between us , to demonstrate us to be in the Truth . Now as we have not this way imposed a Faith upon our Opposers , so we shall not thus impose upon either this man , or the Baptists ; but desire he and they may without Prejudice seek and try further , and Try all things , and hold fast that which is Good , and we doubt not , but where or in whom the Spirit of Christ lives and rules , it will manifest it self by its Fruits , for it is Self-Evidencing , and will discover who are the Lord 's peculiar People , and who not . But this Quibbler imposeth upon W. P. to bring something for Proof of his Church which the Baptists nor no False Church can pretend to and produce , pag. 30. Though this seems to be a hard Task , especially as to what may be pretended ; yet it is no difficult mater for W. P. and many more to produce or demonstrate some such Effects of that Living Testimony , Presence and Power of God among us , as no false Church can produce ; although herein neither W. P. nor any of us , will admit of Prejudiced & Envious Spirits to be our Judges or Witnesses in these matters ; but we have a Record in Heaven , and also in many Consciences of the blessed Power and Presence of God with us & amongst us , Turning many from Darkness to Light , and from Satan's Power to God : And many there are among us , gathered out from Baptists , and other Churches and Peoples , who are Living Witnesses both of the blessed Operation and Effects of the Power and Ministry of Christ Jesus among us , which yet if the Baptists should object and say , They see no such thing , I answer , That is , because they have not Honestly made Tryal , but stood in Prejudice and Gainsaying , as many did against Christ , the Apostles and Primitive Church of old : However it is very Uncharitable for them , to conclude us No Christians ; Either because They will not see us to be such , or because that at their faithless Demands , We do not produce such mighty Signs , as they call for in their own Wills and Times ; But a Foolish & Adulterous Generation seeks a Sign — being in the Unbelief , not acknowledging the Sufficiency of the Spirit 's Teaching and Evidence , in that they own not the SPIRIT to be their RULE . Sect. IV. The Quakers clear from L. Muggleton's Principles , and the Baptists Agent 's comparing them together , proved Scandalous and Wicked , &c. TOuching the Comparison that is made between the Quakers and Muggletonians , it 's both Idle Quibbling and Envious Canting to traduce and scandalize us ; what if W. P. does not pretend to more then Muggleton does ( nor to so much in some things ) does it therefore follow , the Quakers are Impostors , or like him , who holds apparent Blasphemies in many Things , wherein W. P. and others of us have given publick Testimonies against him ? The Baptists may be ashamed of such gross and abusive Insinuations as this , comparing the Quakers and Muggletonians ; yea , and that in some Things wherein the Baptists and Muggletonians might as well , yea , and more truly be compared : As where it is said , Muggleton sayes , He is one of the two Witnesses spoaken of in Rev. 11. that God hath given Power to prophesie ; and the Quakers say , they are the true VVitnesses to the Light , and have received Power to preach the Everlasting Gospel , &c. And I may as well add , do not the Baptists profess themselves both to be true Witnesses of the Christ of God , and Preachers of him too ? Muggleton hath several Disciples and Followers that believe him , and so have the Baptists . Muggleton curses and damns the Quakers ; and what do Baptists less to Quakers and all others that will not be dipt by them , or do oppose them . But 1. Muggleton sayes , He has received Commission from Heaven . 2. That he had it by divine Revelation . 3. That he is inspired by the Spirit of God. 4. That he pretends to Infallibility . And what if Quakers pretend to these , as led by the Spirit of Truth ? The Apostles and true Church did not only pretend to , but experience the same , does it therefore follow that they must be compared with the Muggletonians , and be deemed Impostors ; And the Baptists the true Ministry and Church , and yet have no Commission from Heaven , either to dip or damn People ; but deny divine Revelation , immediate Inspiration and Infallibility ? Let them answer for themselves . It 's said , Muggleton denyes that the Father and Son are two distinct Persons : And have not the Baptists done as much in these Words ; Jesus Christ , God , Man , a Person without you ? See Dial. 1. p. 9. wherein they imply the Father and the Son , or God and the Man Christ , to be but one Person without us ; whereas we tell them 't is not a Scripture-Phrase . But seeing Muggleton pretends some Things that both the Baptists and Quakers hold ; would the Baptists be therefore included in the Comparison with the Muggletonians ? Might they not at this rate as well make all Protestants to be Papists ; yea , Jews , Mahometans , &c. because all agree in some Truths ? But the Comparison-Maker was not so honest as to shew wherein the Quakers differ with and oppose Muggleton , as a Blasphemer and Impostor : As Muggleton holds these false and Blasphemous Doctrines , which the Quakers utterly deny . 1. That the Breath of Life God breathed into Adam ( which made his Soul to live ) is mortal and doth dye . 2. That Adam ' s Soul did dye , viz. with the Body . 3. That the Soul of Man is mortal . Do not some of the Baptists hold the same ? 4. That to say , the Soul departs from , or slips out of the Body , when it dyes , is an ignorant , dark Opinion of most People , contrary to Sense , Reason or Faith. 5. That Death took Christ's Soul into it . 6. That Lazarus his Soul was dead in the Grave , where his Body was those four Dayes . 7. That not only Adam ' s Soul did dye , but also that the Soul of Christ did dye . 8. That all mens Souls ever since are dead being mortal . Thus far all the Baptists , who hold the Mortality of the Soul , agree with Muggleton . 9. That Solomon was ignorant in this Point ( in saying ) the Body to the Dust , and the Spirit returns to God that gave it . 10. That God was born of Mary . 11. That God is not an Infinite Spirit filling all Places . 12. That the Godhead - Life dyed , that when Christ dyed , God dyed . 13. That Christ , being God embodyed with Flesh and Bone ( one Person without us ) cannot be in the Quakers . 14. That there are many vast Places in the Earth where God is not at all . 15. That God himself is a single Person , in Form of a Man , and no bigger in Compass and Bulk ( and was so from Eternity ) then a Man , even of the same Stature as the first Adam was . 16. That Reason is the Devil . 17. That all Men have received the Seed ( or Spirit of Reason ) from the Devil or raprobate Angel. 18. That the Devil became Flesh , Blood and Bone. 19. That Cain was none of Adam ' s Son or Begetting , but the first Devil in Flesh. 20. That Eve was with Child of Cain by the Serpent-Angel before Adam knew her . 21. That then the Condition of Eve was much like the Condition of Mary the Virgin , being with Child by the Holy Ghost before Joseph knew her . 22. That the Devil that tempted Christ , was a Man. Thus far of Muggleton in his Looking-Glass for G. Fox ; and other Books of his and John Reeve's , are replenisht with such absurd and blasphemous Stuff which we never were guilty of , but alwayes abhorred , and often testified against , as we have had Occasion ; therefore let the World judge how grosly and wickedly we are dealt with and scandalized in the Baptists or their Abettors , comparing us with Muggleton , between whom there is as much Distance and Opposition , as betwixt Heaven and Hell , Light and Darkness . Sect. V. The Quakers furher unjustly compared , and Baptists proved to Deny the Divinity of Christ. Pag. 36. BUt we are further catechised : If our Ministers ought to be believed on easier Terms then Christ and ●is Ministers were ( that is , on such Signs , and Wonders , and Miracles , and Gifts of the Holy Ghost , as God did bear them witness with , Acts 2.22 . Heb. 2.3 , 4. ) And why must we be put upon this Proof , or else be judg'd not only No Christians , but Impostors ? but because we bring New Doctrines and New Revelations ( as we are accused ) But what these New ones are , and wherein contrary to the ancient Christian Apostolical Doctrines , we are not yet convinc'd by all the Oppositions we have met withal . It is further added , That some of which are not such New Discoveries from Heaven manifest by the Light within , as pretended , being in Truth but the Old Fancies of Sabellius revived and new vampt , not heard of till long after Christ , and then quickly exploded the Church about 1400. Years ago , pag. 36. I must needs say , that as this Accuser's smiting at us is in the dark herein ; for he does not lay down these old exploded Fancies of Sabellius , or tell us particularly what they are , but thus in dark & general Terms is smiting and squibbing at us , and abusing his Readers , as if they were all bound to believe his Accusations on his bare Word : But what were those Fancies or Opinions of Sabellius , and such others that were exploded as Heterodox or Heretical ? It 's reported , That their Books contain many Blasphemies against the Almighty God , and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ , and withal , much Incredulity touching his only-begotten Son and First begotten of all Creatures , and the word Incarnate , and senseless Ignorance of the Holy Ghost , Euseb. lib. 7. fol. 125. ch . 5. As also those that denyed Christ to have been God from Everlasting , and affirm'd , that by Nature he was but only a bare Man ; as it is said the Followers of Paulus Samosatenus did : Such disapprov'd the Essence and Divinity of Christ , which hath been before all Worlds ; and such as confound the Father , the Son and Holy Ghost , imagining Three Names in One Thing and in One Person , Soc. Schol. l. 2. ch . 15. But we are sure that we are clear from all such Opinions , as Denying the Deity or Divinity of the Son of God , or his being that Word that became Flesh , and so from affirming him to be butonly a bare Man : As also we never went about to confound the Father and Son , truly con●●der'd according to Scripture-Testimony ; or to deny either the Property , Relation , Manifestation or Operation of Father or Son ; though the one Divine Being of Father , Son and Holy Spirit from Everlasting , we have and must confess ; Let it suffice , that as we confess to the Father's bringing or sending forth the Son , both from his own Being and Substance ; as also to his taking Flesh and the perfect Manhood upon him in due time ; and that we really believe his Sonship ( and all this according to Scripture ) so that he was and is the Christ of God , the same yesterday , to day and for ever ; And therefore to compare us with Sabellius , or such as before mention'd , is very Envious and Unjust . But that Baptists have done no less then denyed the Deity of the Son of God , or Divinity of Christ , appears in what follows . John Newman's Argument : If Christ as Christ , was not from the Beginning ; then Christ was not the Word from ●he Beginning : But Christ as Christ , was not from the Beginning ; Therefore , Christ was not the Word from the Beginning , pag. 52. of his Book , entitul'd The Light Within . Mark here , Though he grants Christ and the Word to be one and the same ; yet this Argument denyes him to be either Christ , or the Word from the Beginning : What was he then ? He tells us not . Doth not this oppose the Divinity of Christ , or Deity of the Son of God ? to affirm , that He was neither as Christ , nor the Word from the Beginning ; for , The Word was with God , and the Word was God. And T. Hicks , among much more of his idle Quibbling and Opposition , thus queries , viz. I ask thee , if Christ signifie Anointed , and God be Christ , as thou [ Quaker ] affirmest , Whether God himself e anointed ? Dial. 3. pag. 32. Mark here who is the Quibbler irreverently reflecting upon Scripture-Language , But unto the Son he saith , Thy Throne , O God! is for ever ; a Scepter of Righteousness is the Scepter of thy Kingdom ; Thou hast loved Righteousness and hated Iniquity ; Therefore God , even thy God , hath anointed thee with the Oyl of Gladness above thy Fellows , Hebr. 1.8 , 9. Psal. 45.6 , 7. But these Baptists are willing to throw off God being Christ , with [ as thou affirmest ] which is not , as they affirm them ; I ask then , If they own that Christ is God ? Or that as the Son ( who is God ) he be anointed as he is the Son ? And If He was the Son of God , and so Christ , before his Incarnation or assuming Flesh ? However these men appear Socinianized now , and boggle at this Pre-Existence of Christ , and seem to define or limit him , only as a Person without us in Flesh ; yet formerly some of their Brethren have confessed , That Christ is God , That Christ is call'd the Spirit , 2 Cor. 3.17 yea , that The Father hath put his Name upon him , Exod. 23.21 . And that it is the Christ that is there spoaken of , is manifest , That the Father hath put his Name upon him , so far as He is call'd the Father , Isa. 9.6 . See their Book , entitul'd , A Way to Zion , p. 102. I pass by several Falshoods , traducing and canting Language in the said Qu. Quibbles ; and grant that at length , that the Author hath shewn himself more ingenious then in all the Book besides , where he concludes thus , viz. If I have mistaken thee , or any of thy Friends , it is not willingly ; and if thou shewst me honestly wherein , I will beg thy Excuse ; I not pretending to Infallibility , my Opinion being still so long as we are men , in this Condition , Humanum est errare . But he should have consider'd this at the Beginning of his Book , and have been more submissive and gentle in his Work , beeing so subject to Mistake . THE Second Treatise , Wherein the Forgers Compurgators Are IMPEACHED , In a strict Examination of divers Citations and Doctrinal Matters in their Book , entituled , The Quakers Appeal answered , or a full Relation of the Occasion , Progress and Issue of a Meeting held in Barbican the 28th of August last past ( as their Style is . ) Which Meeting was held by the Baptists to clear T. Hicks , to charge and insult over the Quakers in their Absence , as the Mannagement and Issue thereof hath manifested This is published not only for want of Justice from them , but because of the Injustice of those Baptists so deeply concerned for their Brother Tho. Hicks , against the People of God called Quakers George Whitehead . He looked for Iudgment , but behold Oppression ; for Righteousness , but behold a Cry Under Falshood have they hid themselves . THE Second Treatise , Wherein the Forger's Compurgators are Impeached . A Brief Introduction . THat these Men , who have undertaken to answer our Appeal against Tho. Hicks , have pretended very fair in Words , is undeniable ; but how they have performed and answered is already manifest , and will further appear in divers Particulars , wherein I do complain against them both of their Injustice , Partiality and false Testimony , and affirm that they have neither approv'd themselves Just Judges , nor faithful Witnesses , in matters plain , and obvious ( nor yet clear'd T. Hicks ) In their Title-Page they say , Wherein the Allegations of William Penn in two Books lately published by him against T. Hicks , were answer'd and disproved . This is a manifest Vntruth as any Impartial Eye may see who is willing but to compare this their Barbican Relation , styl'd The Quakers Appeal answered , with W. Penn's two Books , the one entitul'd Reason against Railing , and the other , The Counterfit Christian detected ; wherein many things are alledged and charged against T Hicks , both of vile Forgeries , black Slanders , gross Perversions , self-Contradictions , &c. which are not so much as particulary mention'd , or touch'd in their said Relation ; and some of those things they have medled with , were never so charg'd upon him , as under the Notion of vile Forgeries , &c. nor in such things wherein he had truly cited our Words : We have not charg'd him for True Citations , nor for meer Mistakes ; but , for plain Forgeries , Falshoods , and Slanders wilfully contrived by himself ( about which , and not to judge of Doctrine , the Appeal was made ) as doth appear in the two Books , and our late Charge exhibited agaist him , which we could never obtain a fair Tryal of T. Hicks upon , from these his Abettors & Compurgators , but Diversions and Interruptions , as the late Meetings with them , at Barbican and near Spitlefields , did witness , contrary to their fair and smooth Pretences following , viz. Now forasmuch as T. Hicks is a Member with us , having so heavy a Charge exhibited against him , viz. a FORGER and LYAR , we could do no less then desire T.H. to give us a Publick Meeting , that we might hear * what he could say hereunto ; and if he had done them ANY WRONG , either by Misquoting of them in any of their Books , or Slandering of them in any thing he had charged them with , that we might , if any such thing appear'd , discharge that Duty towards him as becomes us , viz. Either to bring him to acknowledge his Evil as publickly as he had wrong'd them ; or to have disown'd him as a Person unworthy of Countenance among us , in case he should refuse so to do , it being altogether contrary to our Principle and Practice to allow any among us , that shall either in WORD or DEED wrong any sort of Men. To their Letter annexed thereunto these Names are subscribed . William Kiffin , Thomas Paul , Henry Forty , Hanson Knowls , Laurence Wyse , James Jones . And further in their Epistle they proceed , viz. According to the Time appointed we did meet ; T. Hicks charg'd them with several Opinions , and produced the Books of such as have been and now are chief Leaders among the Quakers , for his own Discharge from Forgery ; and that all Plainness might appear , we ordered another Person in the Meeting to read the said Books according as they were cited by T. Hicks : Vpon the reading of which we found them to agree with what he had laid to the Quakers Charge , which the following Narrative will give you a more full Account of ; So that hitherto we see no Cause of just Blame to be laid upon T. Hicks . [ And further they add ] That if W. Penn , or G. Whitehead , or any other leading Quaker have any New Matter to object against T. Hicks , of which he hath not clear'd himself publickly : If they please to signifie the Particulars thereof to us in Writing , with their Hands to it , we shall return such Answer thereunto , either by a Publick Meeting , or otherwise , as to us may seem just , and that may be to the Satisfaction of all indifferent and unprejudiced Minds ; for we hope that nothing shall lye upon us in point of Duty towards T.H. but that by the Grace of God we shall be ready to do it . William Kissin , Thomas Paul , Daniel Dyke , Hanson Knowls , Henry Forty . From all which it may be observ'd their fair Pretence in the first place , That if T.H. had done us any Wrong , either by Misquoting or Slandering us , their Duty had been cut her to bring him to acknowledge his Evil as publickly as he had wronged us , or to have disowned him , &c. 1. Neither of which They have done , though his Slanders are made appear in W.P. and my Answers ; as also when we prest for a further hearing thereof in publick , we were by them diverted ; and since , they proposed for a private Meeting , to go through the Particulars of our Charge ; but some of their Proposals we could not yield to , and our particular Answer thereunto , with our Reasons how far we could comply , they would not be so moderate as to treat about when it was read , but parted in a Huff , and after sent us an Angry Letter not at all tending to a Compliance , or further Treating for a Meeting . 2. And it is further to be observed , that these men take it for granted , that for those Opinions T. Hicks charged us with , he produced the Books of such as have been and now are CHIEFLY LEADERS among us , for his own Discharge from Forgery , and therefore that hitherto they see no Cause of just Blame to be laid upon him ; Whereas it will further appear , that as to those Opinions he hath particularly charged upon us in their said Relation , divers are Unfairly and Falsly cited ; others that concerned matter of Fact , not cited out of any of our Books , or any one 's that either is , or ever was Eminent among us as Leaders , or otherwise , but Apostates and Adversaries ; Other things also for which he produceth no Citations ; others charged and cited out of his own Books , which his pretended Proofs therein do not at all make good . 3. That concerning the late Tryals that we have had of these Baptists in Publick , their Carriage towards us hath not been to the Satisfaction of any indifferent or unprejudiced Minds , who beheld them and their Injustice : But however , this Good hath been brought forth , That many are awakened , and the Eyes of many are opened through these Bussels and Contests , to take notice and s●e these men's Unfairness and Partiality ; and also to enquire more after Truth and Religion then heretofore . After T. Hicks hath gone through the 12. Particulars of his Charge that concern Doctrine , and his 19. that concern Fact , together with those Quotations he pretends for Proof , we have this Testimony given on his behalf : viz. We whose Names are here underwritten , do certifie , that the afore-said Quotations are truly recited out of those Books to which they refer , witness our Hands , Daniel Dyke Hanson Knowlls , John Gosnel , Thomas Paul , Henry Forty , John Norcot , Thomas Wilcock , Robert Snelling , Maurice King , Jonathan Jenings , John Singleton , Dr. Thomas Plant , Joseph Morton , Owen Davis , John Hunter John Snelling , William Dix , John Vernon , Edward Noble , Robert Mason , James Barton . My Occasion calling me from the Meeting before the End thereof ; But since having perused the Proofs , by Comparing them with the Quakers Books whence they are cited , I find them to agree ; witness my Hand , William Kiffin . Observe here how all these Men have engaged themselves for the clearing of T. H. and how they have espousd his Work against us , so that they are now accountable for those his Miscarriages and Abuses in his Dialogues , which we have charged upon him : And further see , how he & they had laid and fitted their Matter for such a Publick Meeting , mannaged on his Behalf in our Absence , when W.P. and I were ( as we had been some Time ) remote from the City : And although W. Kiffin left the Meeting before the End thereof , he could both be Judge and Witness ( as well as the rest ) for him , from the Perusal and comparing of his Proofs with the Quakers Books ( which the rest might have done privately as well ) now my present Business is , to prove them both Vnfair & False Witnesses , as well as Vnjust Judges , even as to Citations , as will appear plainly ( although they would fain have had us acquiesced with their Judgments , as being Infallible Judges , because appealed to ) but here it s proved , That the Quakers Books do not agree with what T.H. hath laid to their Charge , and that all his Quotations are not truly recited out of their Books ; take these following Instances ( being compared out of their own Relation aforesaid , with what is briefly noted thereupon . Sect. I. About the Soul. BEcause T. H. hath made a great a doe divers Times about the Soul , as charging it as the Quakers Opinion ; one white , that the Soul is God ; another while , that the Soul is Part of God , and of God's Being , without Beginning and Infinite . Dial. 1. p. 16. Dial. 3. p. 2. I shall begin with this ; where , after he hath cited W.P. as charging T.H. with Perversion , Iujustice , Misciting and Abusing the true Meaning of what is truly cited : he here breaks off W. P.'s Words , and then faith to his Auditors , You hear what W. Penn , hath said touching this Charge , p. 8. Whereas he hath but cited the Preamble of W. Penn's Answer , and left out the very Substance thereof : See Reas. ag . Rail . p. 65. Is this fair Dealing , or true ; to say , You have heard WHAT W.P. hath said ? when they have not heard the very Substance and chief Part of what he hath said in this Case , which follows after T. H.'s Citation ; W. P. thus , viz. G. Fox saith thus ; God breathed into Man the Breath of Life , and he became a living Soul , and is not this of God , of his Being ? &c. and is not This that came out from God , Part of God , and from God ? Where nothing can well be clearer , then that G. F. intends that Divine Life , Power and Virtue , by which Adam in Soul and Body came to live to God ( with other Passages about the Words Breathed , Inspired ; after which he addeth ) But this Ungodly Person would infer from our asserting , That the Breath God breathed into Adam's Soul whereby it liv'd to God , was of God's Divine Life , That the Soul of Man , as a meer Creature or created Capacity , is of God's own Being and Substance , &c. See further Reas. against Rail . pag. 66 , 67. And further let it be observed , wherein T. Hicks hath dealt Unfairly by G. F. in this matter [ Though it be true that G. F. saith , That God breathed into Man the Breath of Life and he became a living Soul ; and askt , Is not this which cometh out from God , of God , being without Beginning , Infinis in itself , & c ? Gr. Myst. fol. 29 , 68 , 90 , 100. ] But then T. Hicks having left out those Passages that chiefly explain G. F's Sense in this matter , takes it for granted , without Distinction , that it is our Opinion , That the Soul is God ( as he hath charg'd us ) and this he hath made one main Reason for his accusing us with Denying all future & distinct Beings or Rewards of Men after Death ( which must procede either from his Mistake , or wilful Perversion ) he taking G. F's Question about the Soul , to intend the meer Spirit of Man that God form'd in him , or the Soul , that is , a Reasonable Creature ; which could not be intended in G. F's Question , which concerns that Immediate Breath , or Spirit of Life , which came out from God , by which Man became a living Soul ; wherein what is more evident then that G.F. doth not at all confound the Being of Man with the Being of his Maker [ though God may be truly said to be the Being of Beings , the Life of Lives , & so the Soul ( or Life ) of Souls , even of all Mankind ] with respect unto this G. F's words appear very plain , where he saith , God breathed into Man the Breath of Life , and he became a living Soul ; for that which came out from God , was the Cause that MAN became ALIVE , a living Soul ; and is not this of God ? Gr. Myst. pag. 68. See how plain and distinct these words are , between That which came out from God , and Man himself ; and whether it was not an Abuse in T. Hicks , to leave out those G. F's explanatory words , which are in the very same Page that he quotes , and misconstrue his Question and Words to another Intention then they will bear ; while G. F's words relating to that which came out from God , do not at all mention Man's Soul or Spirit , that I do or can find . Although T. H. and his Brethren take Soul ( in G. F's Question ) for the Spirit of Man , or the Reasonable Creature , so far as I can gather ; as W. Kiffin and the rest do in their Epistle , entituled Heart-Bleedings for Professors , Abominations , and annext unto their Confession of Faith , printed 1651. where they have these Phrases , viz. The Spirit which God formeth in Man ; Our Spirit or Soul ; a Creature ; The reasonable Soul , &c. Here they grant man's Spirit or Soul to be the same ; whereas when G. F. speaks of the Soul in that sense , he hath this Phrase , The Soul being in Death , in Transgression , man's Spirit there is not sanctified , Gr. Myst. p. 91. These plain words T. H. also hath left out though in the very next page to what he quotes : What is more plain then that G.F. could not intend that Soul or Spirit of Man ( which could be in Death , in Transgression ) to be either God , his Divine Life , Being , or Part of God , but of Man only ; for the Being of God can never be either in Transgression , or Corrupted ; because God is Incorruptible : And now from the Understanding that I have of G. F's words about the Soul , as in divers places of his said Book ; He speaks of the Soul as under a two fold Consideration ; 1st , with respect unto that Breath of Life , which God breathed into man , by which MAN became a living Soul , 2 dly , with the respect to Man himself , as being thereby made a living Soul : And of Man , as under a three fold Consideration ; 1. As Man was in the Beginning ( before the Fall ) being made Alive , a Living Soul , by the Breath or Spirit of God. 2. To Man faln , and in the Fall , from God ; wherein his Soul or Spirit is brought under Death in Sin and Transgression , and so is polluted with Sin while Unsanctified . 3. To Man as restored , and his Soul quickned to God again by the Spirit of Life , and so saved by and in Christ Jesus , who is the Bishop of the Soul. This I do understand and plainly gather from the Tenour of G. F's Words and Answers . But sith Thomas Hicks's Charge against the Quakers was , that they are No Christians , and that one of his principal Allegations for Proof is , that their Opinion is , That the Soul is God , or part of God , and of God's Being without Beginning and Infinite , which perversly and darkly he hath drawn from G. F's meer Question ( as plainly appears before ) we had need to look the more strictly into the matter ; Upon which I ask , If to put this Question [ Is not THAT of God , and of his Being , which came out from God , by which Man became a living Soul ? ] be an Opinion sufficient to prove Us No Christians ? Then , Whether or no they are Christians , who say , that the Soul of Man is a Spirit of the NATURE of God , which returns to God that gave it ? And whether this be not as high an Assertion of the Soul of Man , as can be supposed G. F. ever asserted ? And that some Baptists have thus asserted of the Soul , see what they say in their own Instances and Words , viz. That this is a known Truth , that every thing at its Dissolution dissolveth into its first Principles : 1. The Springs & Rivers run into the Sea from whence they came out , Eccles. 1.7 . 2. The Ice , Snow , Hail , that are congeal'd of Water , dissolve into Water , and out of Water they are congeal'd again . 3. The Light centereth into the Sun , which is the Fountain of Light , therefore in the Night time it is dark , and Moon and Stars give Light , as they are aspected to the Sun. 4. For Man at his Dissolution ; 1. The SOUL being a Spirit , of the NATURE of God , is said to return to him that gave it ; and the Body being made of the Dust , returns to the Dust again , Eccle. 12.7 . & Gen. 3.19 . saith God , Thou shalt return to the Ground ; for out of it thou wast taken . Thus far Dan. King in his Book , entitul'd , A way to Sion , p. 92. printed at London , & reprinted at Edenburgh Anno 1656. and highly approved and commended by T. Patient , J. Spilsbury , W. Kiffin and J. Pierson who in their Epistle dedicatory give this Commendation , viz. It hath pleased God , to stir up the Spirit of our Brother Dan. King , whom we judge a faithful and painful Minister of Jesus Christ , to take this Work in hand before us ; and we judge that he hath been much assisted of God in the Work in which he hath been very painful . Observe here , how it is affirmed , that the Soul is of the NATURE of God ; and that according to the Instances before , of these things that return into their first Principles . See now Baptists your own Doctrine about the Soul or Spirit of Man ! Were you well advised to suffer your Brother so highly to charge and taunt at us about the Soul , because of G. F s Question which concern'd the Breath or Spirit of Life from God , by which Man became a Living Soul ; when you tell us plainly , that the Soul is a Spirit of the NATURE OF GOD ? You would take it ill , if any should scornfully Dialogue upon you for this , as your Brother Hicks hath done upon us for G. F's Question ; Is not That of God , which came out from God ? &c. to wit , the Breath or Spirit of Life : with whose Words also about the Soul , agreeth Wisd. 15.11 . Forasmuch as he knew not his Maker , and him that ●NSPIRED unto him an active Soul , and BREATHED in a Living Spirit . See also VAVASOR POWEL'S Concordance about the Soul , viz. The Soul is put for the whole Person , Acts 2.41 . & 7.14 . it is put for Life , Isa. 53.12 . it is put for Breath , Acts 20.10 . marg . it is put for a Reasonable Creature , Gen. 2.7 . it is put for GOD HIMSELF , Prov. 6.16 . marg . Hebr. 10.38 . I suppose these men are not ignorant , both how this Concordance is approved , and the Author of it esteemed by them . Sect. I. About the Person of Christ. WHereas T.H. to prove the Quakers deny Jesus Christ to be a distinct Person without us , quotes these words , viz. Jesus Christ a Person without us , is not Scripture Language , & for it quotes Dip. Pl. p. 13. Whereas the Words there are , Jesus Christ , God-man , a Person without thee ( as in his Dia. 1. p. 9. ) is not Scripture-Language , &c. Mark , he hath left out the Words [ GOD MAN ] in the Citation ; and in his two last Dialogues likewise , Dial. 2. p. 10. Dial. 3. p. 7. So that it appears these Witnesses have either taken this defective Citation upon trust from T. H. and not from their own Sight and Knowledge , or else they have knowingly born Witness to this Abuse , & owned this defective & false Citation for a Blind . But how comes his Charge now to be so Low against us , as only denying Jesus Christ to be a distinct Person without us , and he so hard put to it to prove this , when before he charged us in these Words , viz You reprobate the Scriptures and the Person of Jesus Christ without you , Dial. 1. p. 62. O wonderful Impudence and Falshood ! The Reason of my Answer in this Case before to T.H. as also my owning the Man , Christ Jesus as to his Being without us as well as within us , is plainly shewn in my Appendix to Reas. against Rail . p. 17. my Words being thus , viz. Jesus Christ , God-man , a PERSON without thee ; which Phrase I did , and do say , is not Scripture Language ; but the Anthropomorphites who profess a Personal God , denying him to be an Infinite Spirit ; doth it therefore follow that I deny the Man Christ Jesus in his being either without or within us ? But T. H's Words , God-man , a Person without thee , equally excluding God under the Limitation of Man and Person without us ; he is pleased now to leave out the word God-man , & to accuse us of denying the Person of Christ without us : He should have explained what he means by the Word Person ; for though we are not satisfied with the Words before ( being unscriptural ) this is no denying of Jesus Christ in his being either as without us , or within us ; we confessing , that he is ascended into Glory far above all Heavens , and that he is at the Father's right Hand of Power in his Glorious Being — which yet doth not exclude or limit him from being within us . And its false that we deny Christ to be a Man. — His Exaltation and Glory ( into which he is ascended not only into the Heavens , but far above all Heavens ) transcends that Degree attained in these suffering earthly Tabernacles ; his inaccessible Glory is above Men and Angels , &c. Again T. H. hath very unfairly cited but the Beginning of a Sentence of mine , leaving out the latter and chief Part thereof , viz. at [ 'T is a Design of Satan to keep Men in carnal Imaginations and dark Thoughts of a Human Personal Christ ] And here they break off , leaving out the following Words of the same Sentence , which are [ Consisting , * either of Flesh , Blood and Bones LIKE THEIRS , or of Flesh and Bones without Blood , and so of God's right Hand , as limited to that Remoteness That they * neglect to wait for Christ's inward and spiritual Appearance , and the Knowledge of God's right Hand near them , to save and preserve them from Sin and Death : See my Appendix to Reason against Railing , p. 27. Now you that are T. H. his Compurgators , Abettors and Witnesses , See here how he and you have left out the very principal and explanative Part of the same Sentence ; is this your Care and Justice ? Would you be thus served , both to wrong me , and abuse the World or your Readers , to tell them , The Quotations are truly recited out of our Books ? But if you take this kind of unfair curtailing ( which destroyes the Sense ) to be significant , to give the whole Sense of the Clause or Sentence before , and all this to prove us No Christians ; Then it must be contrarywise given as your Opinion for Christianity , That 't is not a Design of Satan , to keep Men in carnal Imaginations of a human personal Christ , consisting of Flesh , Blood and Bones LIKE YOURS ; but a Christian Opinion so to think of Christ and of God's right Hand , as limited to such Remoteness , as that you thereupon neglect to wait for Christ's inward and spiritual Appearance , or the Knowledge of God's right Hand near you to save you from Sin and Death ; but that you may be good Christians , and yet guilty of such carnal Imaginations and sinful Neglect : If this be your Christianity , I hope , through the Grace of God , never to own it , any more then your unjust and partial Proceedings against us , to uphold and cover a Forger , to keep back Judgment from passing upon , contrary to your fair Pretences before cited : But T. H. hath declared , That he no where accuseth us for denying Christ's bodily Appearance ; How then do we deny his Person ? What was his Person , if not his Body ? Sect. III. About the Bible and Scriptures . AGain you give this Passage , as truly recited among the rest , viz. G. W. accounts it Idolatry to call the Bible a Means of our knowing God , for which you quote Dip. plung . p. 13. Wherein is a manifest Untruth and Abuse ; for in Answer to T. Hicks affirming , That the Bible is THE Means of our knowing God , Dial. 1. p. 41. My Words were , He idolatrously sets up the Bible in the Place of Christ ; for no man knows the Father but the Son , and he to whom the Son reveals him , Mat. 11.27 . Dip. plung . p. 13. Mark the Difference betwixt A Means and THE Means , as between the BIBLE , and CHRIST : That may be A Means which is not THE Means , Christ being the absolute Way and Means by Way of Eminency ( for Man to come to & know God ) & not the Bible , though it may be a Means instrumentally , as God bestows a Blessing upon ( or acpanies ) the serious Reading thereof , as it directs to Christ Jesus , or to his Light and Spirit , which openeth the Understanding in the holy Scriptures . Again , about my owning the Speaking of the Spirit in any to be of greater Authority then the Scriptures or Chapters [ you unfairly leave out my following words , which explain my Sense and Intention , which are ] viz. as receiv'd , and proceeding from that Spirit and spoaken in the Senee thereof ; as , Christ's words were of greater Authority when he Spoak , then the Pharisees Reading the Letter , Ser. Apol. pag. 49. And we might farther add , that the same words of the holy Scripture are of more Authority and Efficacy , when the Spirit in any speaks them , or sets them home to the Conscience , then when any one Reads or Speaks them without the Spirit ; and this not at all to undervalue the Truth of what is written : Nor did we ever prefer our Books before the Bible , as unjustly we are charg'd , but do prefer the Bible before all other Books extant in the World , as we can sufficiently evince out of our Friends Writings . And as for Titles given upon some of our Books , which is alledged as Proof against us , viz. Voice of Wisdom ; Breathings of True Love ; A Shield of Truth ; Light risen out of Darkness , &c. but , saith T. Hicks , The Scriptures are call'd , Dead Letter ; Paper , Ink , and Writing ; Carnal Letter , &c. and all this to prove , That we give the Preference to our own Books ; but he giveth us not any Quotation for all these Words or Titles , nor shews us , on what Occasion any of them were spoken ; however his Brethren undertake to be Witnesses for him in these Things with the rest : But herein he hath grosly abused us , and our Intention and Principle , which never was to bring our Books in Comparison with the Scriptures ; nor have we given any such Titles , so to prefer our Books , but with respect unto the secret Breathings of True Love , and the Arising of the Light , or Signification of God's Voice in our Souls ; Such Titles therefore have been not strictly , but figuratively placed upon some Books , and the Letter only made mention of in the Sense of the Apostle , in Distinction between the Law and the Gospel , or as between the Letter and the Spirit , Circumcision in the Letter , & Circumcision in the Spirit ; and so between Baptism in the Letter , and Baptism in the Spirit ; and between Carnal Commands or Ordinances , and Spiritual ; and this chiefly to those , whose Minds have been too much in the Shadows and Letter thereof , neglecting the Substance . Power & Spirit . We knowing also that in the New Covenant we must serve the Lord in the Newness of the Spirit , and not in the Oldness of the Letter : But more over , would T. Hicks and you his Witnesses , take it well , if you and the World should be told , that the Baptists prefer their own Books before the Scriptures , when they entitle their own Books , Light from the Sun of Righteousness ; The Light within ; The Marrow of Christianity ; A Way to Sion ; Some Beams of Light , & c. ? But the Scriptures they have calld the Letter , or the Oldness of the Letter , Marrow of Christianity , pag. 35.44 . And say , The Scriptures may be and is corrupted by Man , having been in the hands of corrupted Men ; and the Spirit in the Rule of more Efficacy then the Letter , St. John Newman's Light within , p. 19 , 20 , 104 , 105 , 106 , 108 , 110 , 112. Judge Reader , how these Baptists are faln into the Pit which they have dig'd for others , and how they are more highly concern'd in the same thing that they alledge against us , to prove us No Christians ; But should any hereupon make a Comparison between the Titles they give to their own Books , and those they have given to the Scriptures , and thereupon should positively charge them with giving their own Pamphlets the Preference , they would take it very hardly ; But if they can find any reasonable Allegations to bring themselves off from this ensnaring Objection that is retorted upon them , according to their own Method , they might in Charity have reserved a better Construction for us in the Case . Sect. IV. Of the Light within . I May not well omit one Passage which is cast upon me , as an Absurdity in their fourth Page , viz. If the Life be the Divine Essence , the Light must be so also ; for such as the Cause is , such the Effect must be : Thus G. W. in a Manuscript . Whereas it is not thus laid down , either in this Method or Form of Argument in any Manuscript of mine that I know of , or an remember , or find out ; and yet I do own , That the Life which is the Light of Men ( that true Light wherewith every ma● is enlightened , Joh. 1.4.9 . ) in its own Being is God and Christ , and not a meer Effect of Power , as a made or created Thing , but Divine and Increated : It appears that these Witnesses have received divers Things on the Credit of their Brother T. Hicks ( who in like Manner layes down the Argument in his first Dialogue ) yet they have the Confidence to subscribe thereto ; though I confess I laid down my Reason to prove that Life ( which is the Light of , and in Men ) Divine ; thus far , viz. If that Life , which is the Light of Men , be of the divine . Being , then the Light must be so also [ Unto which I may now add the following Proposition ] But that Life is of the Divine Being ( or of a Divine Nature ) therefore the Light of Men ( spoaken of Joh. 1.4 , 9. ) must be so also . I also grant that the Cause and Effect were spoaken of , upon T. H. his esteeming the Light within but an Effect , &c. to explain my Sense of the Cause and Effect ( though not laid down in such an inconsistent Argument is placed upon me ) It was only admitted a● between that Divine Life and its immediate Illumination or Lightning in Man , which naturally flows or proceeds from the Life ; So that if I should go meerly in the Form of Argument , there being different Causes and Effects , I should first distinguish between them : As there are Causes and Effects or Products of one Kind or Nature ; so there are of different Kinds : As , the Sun and the Shining or Beams thereof are of one Kind , and the Fountain and Streams thereof are of one Kind or Nature ; but so are not the Carpenter and the House that he makes , &c. as I plainly signified my Intention and Sense about that Immediate Light in Man , being Divine & Supernatural ; by a Reason of the contrary ; As the Light or Immediate Shining of the Sun in the Firmament is Natural , because the Sun it self is a Natural Light ; so the Immediate Illumination or Shining of God in Man's Heart or Conscience , must needs be Divine and Supernatural , because he himself is so , who is the Fountain of Light ; That Eternal Life which was with the Father , 1 Joh. 1.2 . is Divine , and that Life was and is the Light of Men , Joh. 1.4 , And so 't is God who hath shined in our Hearts to give the Light of the Knowledge of the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ , 2 Cor. 4.6 . And his shining ( we hope ) will not now be denyed to be Divine , being immediately of and from himself ; and he so shined in their Hearts before they were come to the Knowledge of the Glory of God in the Face of Christ Jesus , in Order to give them that Knowledge : And I further add , let it therefore suffice that it is my Principle , That the Life , which is the Light of Men , mentioned Joh. 1.4.9 . is Divine , Supernatural , and so Increa●●d ; and it was never my Judgment or Words , that it was but a mere Effect ( as a Thing made ) but that in its own Being 't is no other then the Life of God , and so himself ; and that every Measure or Degree of his Immediate Light , Inshining or Illumination in Man is Divine and Spiritual , and able to direct the Soul to God & Christ from whence it cometh , knowing also that God's Love and Grace in Christ is universal and free to all Mankind . And why we should be Vnchristian'd for confessing , Christ to be that Light which enlightneth every Man that comes into the World , or for saying , that the Light in Men is Divine , I do not understand , since T.H. himself hath confessed , That Christ is the Life and Light of men , Dial. 1. p. 22. Though this he hath often contradicted , and since made it an Article against us to prove us No Christians , that we hold , That the Light wherewith every Man is enlightned , is God , when he himself hath confessed , that it is Christ ; as namely , That Christ is the Life and Light of Men. Sect. V. A slanderous Accusation of T. Hicks's against the Quakers , removed . AS to Matter of Fact. Whereas we are charg'd to say , That it concerns us to render our Adversaries as ridiculous as we can , and to make our Friends believe they do nothing but contradict themselves ; and if this fail , that we will insinuate by way of Question something that may be a Slander to them , Dial. 1. pag. 72. and Qu. Ap. answ . pag. 22. To prove this Charge T. Hicks saith , that G. W. in his Answer to Mr Danson insinuates a Slander upon him by way of Question ( by saying ) That he styleth himself Minister of the Gospel at Sandwich ; but is not rather that Report of him true , That he is given to Gaming and Bowls , &c ? And again , T. H. addeth , This Question was put meerly to slander him . A notorious Untruth ! It was not put with any such Intent as meerly to slander him ; for it is true that such a Report was given to me of him , and seem'd not improbable , or then incredible to me , such Recreations ( so call'd ) being common to men of his Coat . It is true that by the Question before , I did oppose a Gamster or Player at Bowls , to a Minister of the Gospel ; but that I neither made the Report , nor design'd to slander T.D. by way of Question , or otherwise , as I am slanderously accused , see the following Certificate : As concerning the Report that hath been made Question of , touching T. Danson ' s exercising himself at Bowls , &c. when Minister at Sandwich ; I can certifie that I had this Report from an Independent who was an Inhabitant at Sandwich , and who , if Occasion require , I question not but will evidence it ; and accordingly I made mention of this Report to George Whitehead , witness my Hand , Isaac Chatwode . Now judge , serious Reader , how unjustly T.H. hath represented me , as putting the Question meerly to slander T. D. ( whether he be concern'd , or not , I determine not ) which thing hath been perversly hinted in several Pamphlets against us : And whether or no , the said Question doth prove it our Answer , Words or Principle , to say , That it concerns us to render our Adversaries as ridiculous as we can ; or that we will insinuate by way of Question something that may be a Slander to them , as T.H. hath Dialogued the Matter in our Name after a most abusive sort beyond all Bounds of Honesty or Civility ; who farther attempts to prove that my Question before was put , meerl● to slander him , from what W. P. alledges in this very thing , which is , Who knows not that the Priests give themselves a Liberty in more than that ? What Game do they almost scruple to play at ? which is so far from proving that the Question was askt , meerly to slander him , that it rather renders the Report credible , or at least that we might suppose , there was some Ground for it ; and to be sure , this Instance is far enough from making good T. Hicks's Charge against the Quakers , as before ; but sufficient to shew his great Malice & Falsehood ; and these Coverings will not hide him : It is his own Sin , to insinuate by way of Question , to slander us ; for thus he hath done by us and our Sufferings , witness his base and Deceitful Questions , insinuating , that the Satisfaction of our Wills and Lusts , the promoting our Carnal Interests , is , or may be our chief Motive or Inducement , to suffer as we use to do , Dial. 1. pag. 75. This he hath made no Scruple to insinuate by Way of Question against us , and yet maketh it a great Crime , to ask a Question that seem'd probable about a Report of a Parish Priest's Playing at Bowls . And be it noted also , that for a further Proof of his Charge against us , he brings this Instance , pag. 24. viz. If any Persons write or speak their Grief that the publick take notice of it , they will represent them under such Terms as may render them Odious ; and the more effectually to weaken their Testimonies , they will fix upon them scurrilous and contemptible Appellations , and to prevent any Inquisition into the Truth of the Matter they would make People believe that they are Envious , Malicious , Dirty , Factious and Ranting Spirits . And for these general Accusations ( which we may say , are very Abusive and False ) he quotes Spir. of the Hat , pag. 36 , 37. which is so far from being any of our Books , or any one 's Eminent among us , that it was an Envious Apostate's , a Libellous Pamphlet , yet promoted and spread by some Baptists against us , who are beholding to Apostates and Back-sliders for their Engines to work against the People of God call'd Quakers , who have retained their Integrity in the Truth ; But the said Lying Pamphlet styl'd The Spirit of the Hat , was plainly opposed and seriously answer'd by our Friends in their Book , entitul'd The Spirit of Alexander the Coppersmith , &c. yet these Baptists in their Preface , would make the World believe , That the Books ( produced and cited by T. Hicks for his Discharge from Forgery ) were the Books of such as have been and now are Chief Leaders among the Quakers ; but neither tell us Who , nor What Chief Leader the Author of the Spirit of the Hat ever was or is among us . Now you that have concern'd your selves for T. Hicks , Do you think to acquit him from Forgery by such Proceding ? Have you approv'd your selves either Just or Impartial Men , to admit of our Adversary's Accusations for Proof , to Clear your Brother T. Hicks , and Blemish us ? No , No ; Such Work will neither clear you nor him , while Justice and Truth is faln in your Streets , and you have not suffer'd Equity to enter : You are Witnesses on behalf of a Forger , and your Confederacy therein is Impious , and God will break it and bring you to Judgment . Sect. VI. About our Ministers & our owning the Scriptures . ANd also Thomas Hicks having falsly accused us , That we appoint our Ministers aforehand to speak in such a Place at such a Time , Dial , 2. p. 66. For Proof of this he again citeth that lying Pamphlet , Spir. of Hat , in these Words ; What meaneth ( saith he of the Quakers ) that certain Persons are appointed to spend the whole Time in speaking in every Meeting , and all the rest to come as Hearers , neglecting the Gift in themselves , only waiting upon their Lips , Spirit of the Hat , p. 29. Which is also as arrant a Falshood as his Charge before ; for 1 st , we do not so appoint our Ministers or certain Persons before hand to speak in such a Place and Time , or to spend the whole Time in speaking . 2 dly , Neither do the rest of the Hearers neglect their Gift , or only wait upon their Lips , but upon the Lord , and all are referred to the Guidance of God's free Spirit in themselves , having a free Liberty therein to improve and make Use of their Gifts , as God shall call , there being both Gospel Liberty and Order among us , and the Spirit of the Prophets subject to the Prophets ; and Gospel-Ministers have Unity in the Spirit , and with one anothers Testimony , which is not of Man , nor by the Will of Man : However , these Baptists seek to clear their Brother by such false Stories as before , scraped out of an Apostate and Enemies Pamphlet . Another Charge , falsly insinuating , That we do not really or fully own the Holy Scriptures , is this , viz. That the Quakers own the Scripture as far as it agrees to the Light in them : And for Proof of this T. Hicks saith , This is proved in their asserting the Scriptures to be given forth from the Light within . Whereas this is a Proof , that we fully own the Scriptures without any such Exception or Reservation , as is implyed in the Charge before ; for it is apparent , that we fully own the Light within to be Infallible , and therefore the Scriptures which came from it to be really true : However , the Dialogueman would be accounted a very exact Drawer of Consequences , even such an one as would not abate a Word of his Dialogues , but would have them be believed as Real Truths , though they be no Real Discourses , as he hath since confessed , in Answer to T. R's Objection , That the Dialogue is presented to the World , as a Real Discourse ; to which he answers , I do assure him it was not so understood or intended by me in the publishing of it ( he should then have told the World so ) but then he adds , though it be as True and Real , as though it had been a Verbal Discourse ; whenas much of his Dialogues is made up of Consequences of his own framing , yet he hath sought to make the World believe , that the Answers given are no other then what the Quakers give ; and that the Matters he had objected were Real Truths and no Factions : But doth not his Charge and Consequence before imply such Untruth as this his unjust Charge , That the Quakers undervalue or slight the Holy Scriptures , or account them of no more Authority then Esop ' s Fables ? And that all this follows from their asserting the Scriptures to be given forth from the Light within , which they so highly esteem of and own to be Infallible ? Yea , and he has procur●d many Witnesses and Abettors also to subscribe his Work ; but they should more strictly have examined his Proofs and Consequences . Sect. VII . How T. H. begun his second Dialogue with a Forgery and his Deceitful Shift for it . WHeareas T. Hicks in his second Dialogue begun with this Charge and Question , viz. I have formerly detected you of several pernicious Opinions concerning the Scriptures , the Light within , the Person of Christ , and the Resurrection of the Dead , &c. which I presume by this time you have consider'd , what say you thereunto ? To which he gives this Answer in the Quakers Name , viz. I say tho Plagues and Judgments of God will follow thee [ and to this subscribeth ] George Whitehead . But T. Hicks's Abuse and Falshood herein was detected in W. P's Answer to his last Dialogue , Counterf . Christian , pag. 19 , 20 , 21. As also his Forgery herein laid upon him in my Appendix to Reason ag . Railing , p. 13. Howbeit , he is not ashamed in the Barbican Relation to say , The Truth of this Answer see attested under Mr John Gladman ' s hand , Dial. 3. pag. 85. I do not think that T. Hicks can be ignorant of his wittingly wronging both me and John Gladman in this case ; for observe , doth Jo. Gladman in the place quoted attest , that this was G. W's Answer to the Question to which it is annexed by T. H. in G. W's Name ? No. But that G.W. spoak the Words in Discourse with him , that is , with John Gladman ; Not to T. H. in Answer to his Question : If J. Gladman speak his Conscience , he dare not attest that this was G. W's Answer to this Question to which it is here adjoyned as his Answer or saying thereunto ; Therefore T.H. is a Forger , and hath cheated his Witnesses , and drawn in J. Gladman for a Cover to his Deceit ; which shews his Spirit and Work to be in the Dark , like that of an Impostor and Jugler in these matters ; And Men fearing God , would be ashamed either to be his Witnesses , or to countenance , or encourage him therein . Although I deny not , that I spake any such Words against T. H. at any time , as J. G. hath unfairly represented me , in telling the World , That G. W. denyeth he said so ( against T. Hicks ) Dial. 3. pag. 85. for my Answer shows the contrary in my said Appendix , p. 13. though still I deny that to be my Answer unto T. H's Question before ; however , as I did not question ( as in my Appendix ) but that the Judgments of God would follow T. Hicks for his Forgeries & Slanders ; so I am of the same mind still , and my so speaking I neither did give , nor do give for an Answer to his particular Questions : But in his fictitiously placing it , as my saying to that one Question before , he might as well have made it serve to every Question in all his Dialogues , which was never so intended nor spoaken by me ; but with reference to his Forgeries and Slanders in general . There are divers other things in their Relation aforesaid , which concern Geo. Keith , W. Penn and others , that we might justly except against , but they are answered elsewhere , and we could have wish'd , that you who are T. H's Witnesses , would have seriously perus'd our former Answers to T. H. wherein his Forgeries , Slanders , Perversions and plain self-Contradictions are laid open , particularly in those Books , entitul'd , Reason against Railing , and Counterfit Christian detected , from page 6. to p. 54. this might both have prevented that Disgrace & Trouble that is since befaln you , by engaging for such an Agent ; and that you would be pleas'd yet seriously to view all the Controversies , you may perceive many Particulars charg'd against T. Hicks , which neither himself , nor you have either answer'd , or in the least clear'd him of : And further consider those Particulars charg'd against him out of his fictitious Dialogues , printed in our Friends late Account of the Meeting with you at Barbican , the 9th of the 8th Month , 1674. as in Pag. 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. & 31 , 32 , 33 , 34 , 35 , 36 , 37 , 38 , 39. pages of the said Account ; also George Keith's late Vindication . I hope you have consider'd that moderate Account , which your Friend and Brother , W. L. hath given in his Book , entitul'd , The Twelve Pagan Principles or Opinions , &c. and what a Serious Check it containeth to Thomas Hicks , for his Immoderation and Unfair Dealing . George Whitehead . Page 17. Line 13. there should be a noted stop ( or this ‖ direction ) after [ Proved ] to which the Margent refers . p 28 , l. 25. for every read very . p. 4● . l. 5. for for 1. so . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65881-e1150 * Dial. p. 63. & Title-Page . Mat. 27.58 . Joh. 2.19 & 20.12 . Luke 24.3 . Heb. 10.5 . * Which having various Significations , their being imposed hath caused Divisions and fruitless Contests . * In his Book entit . Light from the Sun of Righteousness , p. 94. Notes for div A65881-e7780 * when it is probable , they had heard that before the Meeting . Dial. 1. p. 62 , 75. Append. p. 17. Appendix , p. 20 , 21 , 23. * See Hen. Grigg's Light from the Sun , p. 30. 31 , 33 , 34. * See J. Newman's Light within , p. 55 , 66 , 72. answered by me in my Book , Christ ascended , p. 18 , 19 , 20 , 21. Dial. 3. p. 33. P. 17. P. 26. Rom. 2.29 . & 7.6 . 2 Cor. 3.6 . Hebr. 9.10 . Rom. 7.6 . On Joh. 1.4 . 
A65883	----	The Quaker vindication against Francis Bugg's calumnies in his scandalous pamphlet stiled, Something in answer to the allegations of the Quakers (in their printed case presented to the House of Commons, December 1693) ... ; together with Francis Bugg's own vindication of the people called Quakers since he left them and turned to the Church of England. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1694 Approx. 35 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 3 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2006-06 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65883 Wing W1950 ESTC R35241 15081085 ocm 15081085 103190 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65883) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 103190) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1581:15) The Quaker vindication against Francis Bugg's calumnies in his scandalous pamphlet stiled, Something in answer to the allegations of the Quakers (in their printed case presented to the House of Commons, December 1693) ... ; together with Francis Bugg's own vindication of the people called Quakers since he left them and turned to the Church of England. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 4 p. s.n., [London : 1694] Caption title. Signed: George Whitehead. Imprint suggested by Wing. Statement at end signed with the names of 32 people. Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Bugg, Francis, 1640-1724? -- Something in answer to the allegations of the Quakers. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-08 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2006-01 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE QUAKERS VINDICATION AGAINST FRANCIS BUGG'S CALUMNIES : In his Scandalous Pamphlet , stiled , Something in Answer to the Allegations of the Quakers ( in their Printed Case , Presented to the House of Commons , December 1693. ) But his second Edition , Stiled The Converted Quakers Answer . Together with Francis Bugg's own Vindication of the People called Quakers , since he left them and turned to the Church of England . Conveniet nulli qui secum dissidet ipse . First , IT 's not unknown unto you that we are Dissenters from the Church of England , and as such we injoy our Liberty by Law under you who are in Authority , ( which we have and do thankfully acknowledge ) and consequently not to be reputed Criminal for being such . 2. That Francis Bugg himself did not account us Criminal for our Principles two Years after he had left our Communion , and joyned himself unto the Church of England , see his Book . The Quakers detected , &c. printed 1686. The first point under Consideration is , how I came to be a Member of their Society . In the beginning they taught that all Men were Inlightned , according to John 1. 9. And that this Light wherewith Christ had enlightned them , was sufficient , if obeyed , to lead to Salvation , and that it was the work of the Ministers of Christ , to turn the Peoples minds from Darkness to Light , and from the Power of Satan to God , Affirming that this Light was a sufficient Teacher , Leader & Guide to every Believer , without the help of outward Prescriptions , Forms , Orders and Decrees of Men ; upon these and the like Notions I became perswaded to make tryal of their Doctrine . And when I came to see and observe their Practice , Conversations and Deportments in the beginning , and what Simplicity and Plainness attended their Ministry , I was still more confirmed that it was a Dispensation of the Love of God sent as a Visitation to Mankind ; and being thus perswaded , I was resolved to bear the Cross , and did utterly despise the Shame , that attended them and their Message , and was not behind any of my Equals , both in doing and suffering for the Testimony thereof , as some amongst them can still bear me witness . And in this manner we went on for many Years , and loved one another with Love unfeigned , and doubtless God blessed our Meetings with the comfortable enjoyment of his presence . Thus far Francis Bugg , which plainly shews himself very Inconsistent with himself , and renders his late Work abusive , malicious , and not to deserve any Credit , against us . And although this is enough to Clear us from his Calumnies , from what he now pretends or alledgeth against our Doctrine and Conversation with all Impartial Men. Yet as F. Bugg hath vindicated our Doctrine and Ministry as aforesaid , we shall herewith give a general Account by many credible Witnesses of our Belief and Innocency , in opposition to Bugg's great Scandals . So we beseech you to peruse the following particular Examination of his Calumnies , Partialities and Perversions of our Friends Writings . Which Writings be pleased to note , were extant in Print many Years before he left us , or gave the aforesaid ample Vindication of our Doctrine and Ministry ; and although he confesseth he was more than 25 Years a Member of our Society , Yet in all that time , and some time after he left us , found no fault with our Doctrine or Testimony but own'd and confest the same as aforesaid . And he himself must needs then know , that neither he nor we held any such Doctrines as he would now represent . Upon which we query . 1. Didst thou Francis Bugg , when a Quaker , deny Jesus of Nazareth ? 2. Didst thou Francis Bugg , when a Quaker . 25 Years , account that the Quakers denyed Jesus of Nazareth ? 3. Didst thou F. Bugg contemn the holy Scriptures ? 4. Didst thou F. Bugg , when a Quaker , account the Quakers contemned the holy Scriptures ? 5. Didst thou F. Bugg disown Magistracy ? 6. Didst thou F. Bugg , when a Quaker , account the Quakers disown'd Magistracy ? Bugg pag. 5. Concerning his Charge of our denying Jesus of Nazareth , We utterly deny it : How proves he it , 1. Observe some of his Instances , viz. pag. 5. Thou must wait to know something of God in thee , which in thy own Conscience he makes manifest . 2. That of God within us is so , viz. the Foundation , for we know it is Christ , we know Christ in us , &c. 3. We believe that Christ in us doth interceed the Father on our behalf . 4. The very Christ of God is within us — We dare not deny him . By these four Instances of his , he endeavours to prove that The Quakers deny Jesus of Nazareth ; but doth not he himself hereby deny the Mystery of Christ in Spirit , and implicity accuse the holy Apostles with denying Jesus of Nazareth for the same Testimony ? 1. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them , Rom. 1. 19. 2. Examine your selves whether ye be in the Faith , prove your own selves ; know ye not your own selves how that Jesus Christ is IN you , except ye be Reprobates ? see 2 Cor. 13. 5. Query 1. Was this another Jesus Christ than Jesus of Nazareth ? No sure , there was but one Lord Jesus Christ , 1 Cor. 8. 6. 3. Query 2. And was it not Jesus of Nazareth whom Saul persecuted in the Primitive Christians ? Yea sure , see Acts 22. 8. I am Jesus of Nazareth whom thou persecutest . And tho' Bugg cannot conceive this Mystery of Christ IN us , and WITHOUT us also , yet the Apostle says , It was manifest to his Saints . 4. To whom God would make known what is the Riches of the glory of this Mystery amongst the Gentiles , which is Christ IN you the hope of Glory , Col. 1. 27. 5. God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your Hearts , crying , Abba , Father , Gal. 4. 6. Another of his Instances to prove we deny Jesus of Nazareth ; Is , out of W. Smith's Primmer , or demonstration of the New and Living Way , viz. They that are false , preach Christ without , and bid People believe in him as he is in Heaven above ; but they that are Christ's Ministers preach Christ within . We confess there is one Edition in Octavo , reads it as he quotes it ; But the other Edition in Folio , bound up with his Works . The Paragraph runs expresly thus in the fourth Leaf of his said Demonstration , viz. Why ? they that are false , preach Christ without ONLY , and bid People believe in him as he is in Heaven above , in opposition to his being within , but they that are true Ministers they preach Christ within , and direct People to wait to feel him in themselves , and so to believe in him as he makes himself manifest in them , whereby they truly confess his being without also . [ Thus far W. Smith . ] And this said Author W. S. is yet more full and express in this point , and that too in the very Edition quoted by Bugg in his confessing the same Christ both WITHOUT and WITHIN , viz. We believe all things which are spoken by the holy Prophets and Apostles concerning Jesus Christ , are true according to the Scriptures : And that he humbled himself to the Death of the Cross , and from Death did rise again : And we believe that he is the Resurrection and the Life , and gives Eternal Life to all that believe in him . 6. Bugg's chief and most remarked Instance to prove the Quakers deny Jesus Christ , is out of Saul's Errand , pag. 32. ( which was James Nalyer's Answer ) viz. If I cannot witness Christ nearer than Jerusalem , I shall have no benefit by him ; but I own NO OTHER Christ but that ( i. e. Christ ) who witnessed a good Confession before Pilate , which Christ I witness suffering in me now , pag. 6. Who but a Person blinded with Envy , Malice and Folly would have rendred this a denyal of Jesus of Nazareth ? It appears holy Scripture Testimony is not free from his Reproach . Bugg , pag. 6. A Question to Professors , pag. 33. Now the Scriptures do expresly distinguish between Christ and the Body ( or Flesh ) which he took , saying he can never call the Bodily Garment ( or Vail ) Christ. But Bugg is very unfair in this , in leaving out the Author 's own explication , viz. We cannot call the Body ( which he took upon him ) CHIEFLY and in the FIRST place Christ. As also F. Bugg is quarrelsome in bringing this over again . It having been answered before , and to which he hath given no reply . So he may see a little of it again , viz. We readily grant the Names , Jesus and Christ chiefly belong to him that took the Body or Flesh , yet the names Jesus and Christ were given to both , joyntly and severally , it was Christ that dyed ; but how ? as concerning the Flesh , 1 Pet. 3. 18. his divine Life never dyed , nor did the Soul of the Messiah ever dye . On the other hand the Apostle , Heb. 10 20. calls his Flesh the VAIL , Mat. 27. 28. The body of Jesus ; the Psalmist , A Body hast thou prepared me . And Dr. Barnes , Jesus Christ took Flesh of the Virgin. And thus often in Scripture is each expressed distinct . To Bugg's Query 5. Whether was the Sufferings of Christ , or the Sufferings of the Quakers greatest ? 1. In the first place , we answer , The Sufferings of Christ , in the Nature of them , both inward and outward , in Agony of Soul , and pains of Body ●y that most Cruel Death of the Cross following that of Scourging and Crowning with Thorns . 2. It was both most unjustly and wickedly inflicted by his Persecutors the Jews and Heathen , yet worse in the Jews , because they might have known better , and because they prosecuted him upon false witness . And as Christ's Sufferings were most cruel and unjust , both as to the Nature thereof , and the dignity of him that suffered : So he was a most acceptable Sacrifice , and sweet smelling Savour to God , and his Suffering and Sacrifice of universal advantage and benefit to mankind , in that he died for all men , and gave himself a Ransom for all , that all might be capable of Redemption and Salvation through him . VVe do not accept of what F. B. partially cites for Answer to his said Question , which was not put unto Edward Burrough's , nor made by him , nor justly deducible from E. Burrough's intention in his Explanatory Reasons , not cited by F Bugg . nor the Year when his Reflection was made upon the Arbitrary and unjust proceedings of those then in Power , being in 1657. too tedious here to recite . His Reproach of Contempt of Scripture , if he means the holy Scripture , as he elsewhere saith , we utterly deny his Charge herein , as contrary to our Principle and to our Christian profession of the holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament , as being given by Divine Inspiration . And Bugg has been told That our Friends distinguishing between the Letter and the Spirit , between the Ministry of the Letter , and that of the Spirit , as between the Shadow and the Substance , the meer writing in outward Characters ( which will decay and wear out ) and the Holy divine Doctrines and Truths therein contained , ( or holy Scriptures ) is so Scriptural , that we know no true Christian will deny such distinction ; for the holy Apostle distinguished between the Letter and the Spirit . 2 Cor. 3. 6. Which hath made us able Ministers of the New Testament , not of the Letter , but of the Spirit , for the Letter killeth , but the Spirit giveth Life : This could be no Contempt of holy Scripture . Note , That in the very Book , News out of the North , quoted against us in this point , there 's frequent reference had to holy Scripture Testimonies , both of the Old and New Testament , and accordingly abundantly quoted in the Margents , which does not bespeak a Contempt thereof , but the contrary , as we think is undeniable . In the said News out of the North , the Scripture is plainly own'd that the Lord hath spoken it by his former Prophets , &c. p. 5. As for Baptism and the Lords Supper , Scripturally considered in their several Dispensations , both as in the Figure , and in the Substance , in the Type and Antitype , we confess and own ; but the Substance is more excellent and permanent than the Shadow , as the Inward and Spiritual Grace is more excellent than the outward and visible Signs . About this point Bugg is very partial and unjust in his citation out of E. Burrough's Works , p. 518. both in varying his Words , leaving out his explanatory Part , and representing him as writing thus at first , viz. About Water-Baptism and the Sacrament we do utterly deny , and do say it is no Ordinance of God , but an Institution of the Whore of Rome ; and England received it by a Popish Institution , and your practice of it is Idolatry , and no part of the Worship of God. [ Thus Bugg cites . ] This is very partially and unjustly cited ( and in the first Words falsly ) E. Burrough's Answer in the very place is thus , viz. As for Baptism and the Supper of the Lord , we do own it , and it is practised of us in the Life and Power of God : But as for your Baptism , that is to say Sprinkling of Infants , calling it the Baptism into the Faith , and that they are made Members of the Church thereby , and that it is a Seal of Regeneration as you say [ these foregoing Words Bugg leaves out ] that we do utterly deny , and do say it is no Ordinance of God , neither was it ever commanded by him , or practised by his Saints , &c. [ Thus F. Bugg . ] Note , Here he did not say that Water Baptism is a Popish Institution , but Sprinkling Infants , calling it the Baptism into the Faith , &c. For he knew that Water Baptism was practised by John Baptist , and in the Apostles time long before the Pope was . And now F. Bugg , if E. B. was in an Error herein , we Query , 1. Why didst thou not disprove the same by Scripture . 2. Dost thou in thy Conscience believe Sprinkling Infants to be of divine Institution ? 3. Dost thou believe it was practised by the Saints or Primitive Christians in the Apostles d●ys ? 4. Dost thou believe that it is the Baptism into the Faith , Church , and Kingdom of Christ ? 5. If thou believest all these , pray produce us plain Scriptare-Rule for thy Faith , that we ( who believe the contrary ) may be convinced , or else do not impose an implicit Faith upon us . Reader , observe what the Author ( Bugg quotes in this point ) chiefly here opposed was the Popish Notion or Opinion , That no man can enter into the Kingdom of God , nor into the fellowship of Holy Church without Water Baptism , as held by the Rhemists ; see their Annotations upon John 3 , 5. And therein opposed by the Protestants , as appears in Dr. Fulke's Answer , viz. It is not necessary in this place by Water to understand Material Water , but rather the purifying Grace of Christ , as in 4. ch . ver . 11. 14. where 't is called Living Water , whereof ( he saith ) washing with Water in Baptism is an outward Sign . So that the reformed Protestants did not esteem the outward Element Essential to Salvation . And Bugg pag. 3. quotes W. Smith unfairly also , out of his Primmer , where he speaks of these things which arose or had their Institution from the Pope , Bugg leaves out what these things were he meant , viz. Sprinkling Water in a Child's Face , and signing its Forehead with the Sign of the Cross ; and intimating his not owning Bread and Wine to be the Body and Blood of Christ , or calling the Bread the Body of Christ broken for them , when ( saith he ) People neither discern the Body nor the Blood of Christ , pag. 39. 40. What great Error was this ? Did he not here chiefly oppose Infant Baptism with the Sign of the Cross , and the Doctrine of Transubstantiation , and Receiving unworthy Communicants to eat and drink their own damnation ? Which we think was not to oppose any Command of Christ , nor to Contemn his Disciples taking the Bread and the Cup in Remembrance of him , &c. As to the Publick Ministry and Tythes . If we could in Conscience have been satisfied with them , we should not have dissented from them nor suffered by them . Yet his Charging us with Contempt of the Publick Ministry , is too general and harsh we charitably distinguish between the more moderate sort , and the ridgid Persecutors . As for those termed Priests of the World , namely the Covetous and Persecuting sort , mentioned as greedy Dogs , &c. pag. 4. So the Prophet terms such , Isa. 56. 11. for which F. B. accuseth us with Reproaching Christ's Ministers , pag. 8. We do not believe him herein , nor proves he that such were either qualified as Christ's Ministers , or their Call to be Divine . We confess some did give them as hard Language , as the Prophets of Old did those in the same Steps , but their severe Persecution , spoiling our Friends Goods , and causing many to indure long Imprisonments , some till Death , sometime for Tythe of a small value , it may be for the value of a Tythe-Pigg , Goose or Hen , &c. This sure was far harder Treatment . Bugg , pag. 4. quotes a Brief discovery , writ by some body , in which he has Collected ten Lines against the Covetous Persecuting Priests of the World out of 4 Pages , and places them together as one intire Paragraph , but neither tells us the Author's Name , nor the date of the Book , nor can we find the Book it self . F. Bugg , pag. 4. accuseth some body for objecting against paying of Tythes under the New Covenant , because abrogated by Christ , &c. on which he makes his Observation . 1. That the Quakers by this have condemned the Martyrs , and all Christians , &c. but herein he Unfairly imposeth on us without Proof , and his Observation is too general upon the Martyrs , &c. for both John Wickliff , William Swinderby , Walter Brute , William Thorpe , the Bohemians , with others mentioned in the Book of Martyrs , and others did bear Testimony against the Corruptions of the Popish Clergy , and against Tythes and compelled Maintenance . ( And were not these Martyrs Christians ? ) This was made a Principle Article against them by the Papists , as more largely appears in the first Volume of Martyrs , in the Reigns of Richard the Second , Henry the Fourth , and Henry the Fifth , 2. Bugg argues , That if the Quakers are of the same mind still , how can they have the Face to ask Favour ( meaning of the Parliament . So that if we cannot for Conscience sake pay Tythes , Bugg will neither allow us to seek , nor to have any Favour from the Government , and consequently our heavy Sufferings , Imprisonments , Sequestrations , and Spoil , to the Ruining of many Families , must be continued upon us if his Uncharitable Attempts may take effect . Oh! Unmerciful Man ! But let it be remembred , that the House of Commons not long since were of a better mind , and of more tender Inclination , when they passed two Bills for the more easie Recovery of small Tythes , being without Imprisonment of the Persons , or Ruining Families thereby . Bugg's charging the Quakers with contempt of Governours . We sincerely deny , and we had need to examine his Proofs , seeing in his Observation he gives this severe and Mandatory order thereupon , viz. Let the Quakers first recant of their Errors , and condemn their Books , and make a Confession of the Christian Faith , and all under their Hands , and then , and not whilst then , let Compassion be shewn unto them . Is not this an Imperious and presumptive Dictator to the Government , trow ye ? How now F. Bugg , thou wast more merciful when a Quaker . but now since thou art now gotten among the Priests and Levites thou hast lost all Mercy and Compassion towards us . Now observe , that Bugg quotes Edward Burrough's Works for proof , pag. 507 , 501 , 621 , 53 , 522 , 524. here out of six pages thus far remote from each other he has Pickt and Catcht up a few Words here and there , to prove the Quakers Contempt of Governours , which is a very foul Abuse and Perversion for any Reasonable Man that reads those Passages , may easily perceive that the Author did not testifie against Magistracy or Government it self , nor against Governours in general , but only against Persecuters and Usurpers over Conscience who frustrate the just ends of Government . As between Anno 1654. and 1659. as appears in the pages quoted , see what pains this Adversary takes Unjustly to pick out Words that he thinks make against us , and leaves out at the same time what more explains the matter for us . As pag. 501. E. B. speaking of Arbitrary Usurpt dominion over the Consciences of Men , to which ( says he ) we cannot yield our Obedience ; within two Lines after he goes on ( We ) Preach Jesus Christ alone in the things of God , to be our Lawgiver , and own Magistracy in civil things . Which last Words Bugg leaves out , basely to infinuate that we contemn Magistracy . And as for the Power , the said People ascribe only to God , which they cannot give to Man , or any Earthly Power ; it is that Power which God only has given them in point of Conscience , Religion and Worship , which no Mortal Man nor Worldly Powers have dominion or prerogative over , it only appertaining to God's Prerogative ; and 't is on that account we cannot seek to Earthly Powers to make or establish our Religion , for if we could , what need had we ever to have suffered by them ? Nevertheless we may seek to Authority and thereby own Magistracy ) to be eased from Unjust Oppressions , and desended from unreasonable men in our civil Rights and Properties , without infringing God's undoubted Prerogative and Power over our Consciences . Note , That the Instances Bugg has chopt out and given in pag. 7. to prove the Quakers contempt of Governours , being between the year 1654 , and 1659. 'T is evident therein that E. B. testified against the corruption of O. Cromwell and his Ministers and Magistrates in that day , for which Bugg has past this heavy Judgment upon the Quakers , not only that they contemn Governours ( which is without exception ) pag. 7. But also that they are Those wretched Impostors who revile Christ's Magistrates , and reproach his Ministers , pag. 8. This is sad indeed ! when 't is very clear that the Magistrates and Ministers which he has here instanced , and which Edward Burrough's reprehended were those very Persecutors and Usurpers over Conscience in Cromwell's days , whereby ( to do us an ill turn ) Bugg has at unawares run his own Head against a Wall , and at once justified those Magistrates or Governours in those days as Christ's Magistrates ; and consequently the Usurpation of that Government testified against by E. Burrough's , and others . But we now Query of F. Bugg , wilt thou indeed stand by it pursuant to thy Charge ? 1. That those Magistrates and Ministers in O. Cromwell's days were Christ's Magistrates and Ministers ? 2. That to testifie against , and reprehend them for their Corruptions , Persecutions , and Arbitrary Usurpations over Conscience , &c. ( as E. Burrough's did ) was a reviling Christ's Magistrates , and reproaching Christ's Ministers ? Answer directly and ingenuously , if thou wilt adventure to stand by thy own Charge and Instances as proof thereof . 3. Dost thou really believe that no Compassion ought to be shewn to us , because E. Burrough's reproved O. Cromwell and his Ministers for their Corruptions ? Concerning Humbling our selves in Fasting and Prayer . His Insinuation against us , as slighting Authority is still unjustly to render us obnoxious ; for the Intent , Substance , and end of a true Fast , Humiliation and Prayer to Almighty God for an universal Humiliation and Repentance through the Nation , &c. for the Sins thereof , that God in Mercy may avert his Judgments , and turn away his Wrath ; this we are frequently mindful of in our Solemn Assemblies , and sincerely desire to be manifest unto God in the Spirit of Grace and Supplication ; for the good of our whole Nation , and safety thereof , knowing also that the FAST that God hath chosen and accepts , is described by the Prophet Isaiah . Is it such a Fast as I have chosen ( saith the Lord ) a Day for a Man to afflict his Soul ? Is to bow down his Head as a Bull-Rush , &c. Is not this the Fast that I have chosen , to loose the Bands of Wickedness , to undo the heavy Burdens , and to let the Oppressed go free , and that ye break every Yoke ? Is it not to deal thy Bread to the Hungry , & c ? see Isa. 58. 5 , 6 , 7. 'T is farther observable that by Bugg's course of chopping , mangling and perverting , an Atheist may grosly abuse and Injure the best Writings extant in the World , even the holy Scripture it self , and make them to look with another Face , than they naturally import , or ever were intended by the first Writers . F. Bugg tells us of a brief History of the Rise , Growth , and Progress of Quakerism , which in time possibly you may see , But who will believe him to be an impartial Historygrapher ? Or what rational man will be so credulous of his partial and perverse Works against a People whom he hath so grosly defamed and abused ? And now suppose any particular Person amongst us have formerly , or at any time been defective in the manner of some expressions , is it just or ingenuous in F. Bugg , captiously to take advantage thereat , and then charge his ill Constructions upon the whole People : When the same Persons in the same Books have elsewhere better explained themselves , and safely laid down what might else seem more doubtful ? His accusation That a Spirit of Persecution hath been among us from the beginning , is manifest in the Tryal of G. K. &c. Is absurd in him to say . 1. We have not heard the noise of the said Tryal till very lately , how then could that manifest a Spirit of Persecution among us from the beginning ? Did that Tryal continue from the beginning ? And how contrary is this to his own confession before cited , that we went on for many Years , and loved one another with Love unfeigned , &c. 2. The said Tryal at Phyladelphia , mentioned by him , is forreign to us , and we have had no other Account that any such Tryal was but from one party . Nevertheless if any thing turbulent , unwarrantable or Arbitrary on either side was acted or done , we shall not espouse nor justifie the same ; when it shall so appear to us . 'T is observable that Bugg in his Book of Christian Liberty , or Liberty of Conscience , 2d . part , p. 28. approves of the testimony of those very Authors , viz. I. Pennington , E. Burrough's . &c. whom he now condemns as blasphemous and wretched Impostors . So that they were good men and sound in testimony while alive , but wicked men and blasphemers when dead , such is the Folly and Contradiction of this Perverter . Note also , that F. Bugg in his said Book of Christian Liberty . printed 1682. 2d part pag. 83. affirms THAT CONFORMITY is a Monster conceived by the great Whore , Mystery Babylon , the Mother of Harlots , a Monster because of its Deformity and degenerate Birth , it can be no other , for the Devil is the Father of it ( I speak of a forced Conformity upon Mens Consciences ) saith he . And yet in about two Years after in 1684. he himself turned about and conformed contrary to his own Testimony ; what credit then can be given to this unstable and partial man's Scribling , or pretending to give Account or History against the Quakers , so grosly Reviled and Calumniated by him ? In Bugg's Q. 4. 2d Edition , That we seemed to embrace the Whore in King James 's Reign , in presenting Addresses to him , but not one to King William ; Bugg is false and envious in both . For 1st , Our gratitude for our Liberty , was no embracing the Whore. 2 We have more publickly expressed our hearty Thanks several times even in Parliament to the present Government for the Kindnesses we have now received by Law , which is more than we could do before . Bugg pag 2. 4. That We ( the Quakers ) undermine the Christian Religion ( and Principles ) to overthrow it , Is both false and Contradictory to Bugg's own Confession , Of the Christian Quaker's being Innocent , and what they hold SOUND , and that tho' they do dissent from the Established Religion , yet they hold the true Faith , at least for Substance . Thus Bugg , in his New Rome Unmask'd , pag. 68. printed but in 1692. And yet those Christian Quakers he mentions declares against Swearing under the Gospel , and against Tythes , as being no Gospel Ministers Maintenance , Artic. 25. and 27. of the same Book he quotes for his Authority , for the Christian Quakers . These foregoing Citations were examined and compared by divers intelligent Persons . And further , seeing F. Bugg has shewn his Hatred and Revenge against George Whitehead especially , for discovering his Self-condemnation and Malice , &c. I ( the Person concerned ) freely offer , and am willing ( with the Lord's Assistance ) to make it plainly appear before any Six , Ten or Twelve competent Witnesses , who are moderate , men of Sense and common Reason , that F. Bugg has grosly and wickedly abused and perverted Truth , and wronged the People called Quakers , both in Charge , Citation , and Observation , in his said Pamph●et . And that in his late Book New Rome arraigned , he has forged notorious Lyes in other mens Names , to Ridicule , Desame , and Scandalize divers Citizens of London , and Men of good Repute ▪ condemning them also to the Pillory as Perjured Persons , in his pretended Tryal , in a way of Judicature unwarrantably acted by himself , assuming the place of both Judge , Accuser , Jury , Condemner and Executioner ; with a form of a Pillory and Effigies in it , to represent the Persons so grosly Scandalized by him . I say for these Ends mentioned , I do proffer ( God willing ) to meet F. Bugg before Witnesses , at any convenient Time and Place within the City of London , that the Persons so defamed by him may be present . To which Proposal I subscribe George Whitehead . To the Members of PARLIAMENT ; And others to whom Bugg's said Pamphlet has been delivered . WE whose Names are underwritten ( being in Christian Society with the People commonly called QUAKERS ) Do in good Conscience Declare and Certifie all Persons concerned . 1. That we sincerely believe and Confess , That Jesus of Nazareth , who was born of the Virgin Mary , is the true Messiah , the very Christ , the Son of the Living God , to whom all his Prophets gave Witness . And we do highly value his Death , Sufferings , Works , Offices , and Merits for the Redemption and Salvation of Mankind , together with his Laws , Doctrine and Ministry . 2. That this very Christ of God , was and is the Lamb of God that takes away the Sins of the World , who was slain , was dead , and is alive , and lives for evermore , in his divine eternal Glory , Dominion and Power with the Father . 3. That the HOLY Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are of divine Authority , as being given by Inspiration from God. 4. And that Magistracy or Civil Government is God's Ordinance , the good ends thereof being for the Punishment of Evil doers , and Praise of them that do well . And we know of no other Doctrine or Principle preachead , maintained , or ever received among ( or by ) us since we were a People , contrary to these before mentioned . Signed in Behalf of the said People , Thomas Lower , William Crouch , William Ingram , William Meade , William Macket , Philip Ford , Francis Camfield , John Edge , Thomas Hutson , Charles Marshall , Josiah Ellis , Gilbert Latey , Theodor Eccleston , Joseph Wassey , Thomas Cox , John Bowater , Benjamin Antrobus , William Philips , Edward Brook , William Townsend , John Hall , George Oldner , Thomas Barker , Abraham Johnson , Tho. Twinbarrow , Michael Russel , John Harwood , John Danson , John Stringfellow , Will. Paul , Fra Etteridge , Benj. Bealing . The Quakers Vindication and Buggs Testimony against Bugg's Calumnies . 
A65885	----	The rector examined about his book scandalously stiled, An antidote against the venom of Quakerism, by John Meriton, who calls himself A.M. rector of Boughton in Norfolk : and his observations remarked, and the Christianity of the people commonly called Quakers, re-asserted and vindicated, from his perversions and aspersions / by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1699 Approx. 129 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 24 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65885 Wing W1953 ESTC R20277 12291944 ocm 12291944 58915 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65885) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58915) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:22) The rector examined about his book scandalously stiled, An antidote against the venom of Quakerism, by John Meriton, who calls himself A.M. rector of Boughton in Norfolk : and his observations remarked, and the Christianity of the people commonly called Quakers, re-asserted and vindicated, from his perversions and aspersions / by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 47 p. Printed and sold by T. Sowle ..., London : 1699. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Meriton, John, 1666-1717. -- Antidote against the venom of Quakerism. Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-04 Simon Charles Sampled and proofread 2005-04 Simon Charles Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE RECTOR EXAMINED , About his Book Scandalously stiled , An Antidote against the Venom of Quakerism . BY John Meriton , who calls himself A. M. Rector of Boughton in Norfolk . AND His Observations Remarked , and the Christianity of the People commonly called Quakers , Re-asserted and Vindicated , from his Perversions and Aspersions . By GEORGE WHITEHEAD . — And they are Shepherds that cannot understand : they all look to their own way , every one for his Gain from his quarter , Isa. 56. 11. LONDON , Printed and Sold by T. Sowle , in White-Hart-Court in Gracious-street , and at the Bible in Leaden-Hall-street , 1699. THE RECTOR EXAMINED , About his Book , Scandalously stiled , An Antidote against the Venom of Quakerism . WHAT John Meriton calls The Venom of Quakerism , is not what 's contain'd in our Paper , entituled , The Christianity of the People commonly called Quakers ; for he grants our Profession throughout the greatest part thereof , ( as well as some others ) would seem Orthodox , page 5. But what he quotes out of other Books , as he thinks in Opposition thereto , wherein he shews his own Enmity and Perversions , and not our Contradiction to what 's Orthodox in our said Profession ; and the greatest part , of what he hath quoted for that end , being Answered in the other Examination , entituled , Truth and Innocency vindicated ; and but Repetitions , and no Refutations of his and his Abettors . I need not much repeat or insist upon them , but take notice of some other Abuses intermix'd in his Observations , and by the way to shew his Learning in Divinity , how he defines Christianity and Christian ; first Negatively , then Affirmatively , viz. 1st . What is understood by the Term Christianity , or what is necessary ( in a strict and proper Sense ) to entitle a Man to be a Christian ? For making up this good Composition ( saith he ) it is not enough for a Man , to know and acknowledge God , as the one only true God , Creator of all things , to depend upon and be subject to him , to love him , and our Neighbour as our selves ; to walk soberly and honestly , and to practise all those other Duties , which by the Light and Law of Nature he may be convinced of ; for then a Man may believe and be conformable thereunto , and yet be no Christian , page 3 , 4. Whereupon we may observe , and hence inferr , That a Man may be Godly , and so live to God , and yet no Christian ; i. e. a Man may be born of God ( as he that loveth is ) and yet without Christ ; as if a Man could come to God without Christ ( Oh! Lamentable , Unchristian Doctrine ) contrary to his own Doctrine ! No Man cometh to the Father , but by me ; and , If God were your Father , ye would love me . And if without Christ we can do nothing , How should any Man either know God , depend upon him , be subject to him , or love him without Christ ? And 't is by his Divine Light and Grace , that Men are taught these Duties , to live Godly , and to walk Soberly and Honestly , and not by a Light or Law of Humane Nature . So that a Man born of God , who loves and obeys him , and is subject to him , is truly and lovingly a Partaker of Christ , and of the Nature of Christianity . But if to know God , to depend upon him , to be subject to him , to love him , our Neighbour as our selves , to walk soberly and honestly , &c. will not entitle a Man to Christianity , to be a Christian ; then 't is not the Jew inward , nor the Christian inward , nor the New Creature , nor the New Birth , that will avail ; but the outward Profession of Christianity ; though many have that , who neither love God , nor are subject to him , nor love their Neighbours , consequently are no New Creatures , nor born of God. And if to know , love and obey God , and to live Soberly and Honestly , &c. be not such a Good Composition , as will make up a true Christian in Spirit and Life , What will this Composition make up ? May we take , what our Opposer here adds , for Answer ? viz. For who doubts , but that some of the Heathens thus far believed and practised , who were not only altogether Ignorant of Christ , but also vehemently opposed him and the Christian-Name , page 4. This I cannot receive for sufficient Answer , or for Truth : And 't is said , ( but not proved ) that any of those Gentiles or Heathens who knew and loved God ( depended upon him , and were subject to him , and loved their Neighbours as themselves , and walked soberly and honestly ) yet that these Gentiles thus qualified , vehemently opposed Christ and the Christian Name . We want proof for this Assertion , How could they love God , and be subject to him , and depend upon him , and hate or oppose his dear Son and Servants ? If God were your Father , ye would love me , saith Christ : for I proceeded forth , and came from God , John 8. 42. for those that hated him were of their Father the Devil , ver . 44. Where did ever any honest sober Gentiles or Heathen , who truly loved God , so vehemently oppose Christ , as this Man accuseth them ? We find the contrary in Scripture , that many Gentiles believed and received the Gospel of Christ , who is the Light of the Gentiles ; and even in the Case of Justification , the Apostle brings those Gentiles for a proof , who not having the Law , were a Law to themselves , when they performed those things contained in the Law , and shewed the Work of the Law that was written in their Hearts , Rom. 2. 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. But the mistake of this our Opposer and his Adherents , is , they 'll have the Light which enlightens every Man that cometh into the World , not to be Christ , but Man's Conscience , a Light and Law of Nature , and so but natural as of Man , and not Divine ; deeming it Blasphemy to assert the Light that doth enlighten every Man that cometh into the World is not Conscience ; and that it was before any thing was made , or Conscience named , as in their first and great Charge against us , in their Brief Discovery , page 3. whereby they have consequently charged John the Evangelist's Testimony of Christ ( who is that true Light , John 1. ) with Blasphemy : Thus have they brought the Blasphemy upon their own ignorant Opposition to this Evangelical Doctrine of the true Light , which Christ the Word is the Fountain of , which is a Divine , Supernatural Light , and therefore increated , consequently not Man's natural Conscience , but a superiour Reformer and Guide of Man's whole Soul , with all the Parts and Faculties thereof : He that made all things , was not made ; but he that was the true Light made all things ; by him all things were made , John 1. He that made Man , was before Man was , before his Soul or Spirit , or any Faculties or Intellectuals were made or formed within Man : Consequently this Light was not Conscience , but that which enlightens Man's Understanding and Conscience , and the Eyes of his Understanding . How Blasphemous then are these Men , who deem this Doctrine of the Light Blasphemy ! And 't is not safe to conclude , That those Jews who were God's chosen People , and obedient to the Legal Dispensation , had no Faith in the Messiah , or no Title to Christianity , or were in no Christian State , as implied , page 4. seeing they had the Word of Faith in them , as well as the Law without them , Deut. 30. 12 , 14. compared with Rom. 10. 8. And all Israel drank of the same Spiritual Rock which followed them ( or went with them ) and that Rock was Christ , 1 Cor. 10. 4. How could they drink thereof , if they had no Faith therein ? 2. Now how this Reason describes a Christian in the Affirmative ; He tells us , To entitle a Man to be a Christian , viz. He must necessarily believe Christ to be already come ; nay , that particular and numerical Man Christ Jesus , who was born of the Virgin Mary , and was of the Seed of Abraham according to the Flesh , to be the Christ of God , that was promised to come in due time ; That this very Man was Crucified , died , and rose again from the Dead , and is ascended , &c. ( citing 1 Tim. 3. 16. ) This Christ God-man , as come and Crucified , was that main Foundation of the Gospel and Christianity ; These were new Articles founded upon a new Dispensation , without the Belief of which ( not to name some others , which may be thought by some also necessary , such as Baptism by Water , and the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper by Bread and Wine ) a Man cannot be called a Christian , page 4 , 5. If this Belief of the Blessed Man Christ Jesus his Birth , Death , Resurrection and Ascension into Glory , as the Great Mystery of Godliness , God manifest in the Flesh , &c. 1 Tim. 3. 16. be necessary to entitle a Man to be a Christian , then we the People called Quakers , sincerely believe all this of Christ the true and promised Messiah ; we really have all this Faith of and concerning him , consequently we must have a true Title and right Claim to Christianity by the same Proposition ; we really believe both of Christ and in him , even in his Name and Power , wherein we hold the main Foundation of the Gospel and Christianity , and the Doctrine thereof . But this Rector has omitted a Living Faith in Christ , unto Repentance , Sanctification , Regeneration , the New Birth , Newness of Life , Purity and Holiness , without which no Man shall see God , or be a Christian in Nature . The more uncharitable and inconsistent then is this Rector ; in charging us with Venom , giving our Doctrine the Character of The Venom of Quakerism ; and the Quakers indefinitely , that of Deceitful Workers , Transforming themselves into the Apostles of Christ , cannot be looked upon any otherwise at best , than good moral Heathens , and many of them short of that , page 5. Hence observe how uncharitable and furious this Rector is , and how he had need to be corrected for his Rashness herein , though our Profession ( taking the words thereof in their common Acceptation ) must be granted ( at least ) to seem Orthodox ; as he grants both of our Paper observed by him ( i. e. The Christianity , &c. W. P' s Key , John Crook ' s Principles , &c. ) But still in his uncharitable and sower Humour , he will presume to be Judge over our Sincerity , from my seeing cause to construe my Friend's words and Intentions , as if we were hence to be mistrusted in our Orthodox Confessions ; whereupon he presently passes Judgment against the Quakers , viz. That they have a nauseous Pill to give you , but that it may not be distastful , they gild it over , as the Writers of Popery in the late K. J's Reign the other day did ; with more such bitter envious Stuff , and false Judgment , to which we shall never submit , nor give away our Sincerity or Holy Profession of Christ and Christianity , which he cannot deny to be Orthodox in it self : Nor extinguish our Sincerity therein , but only strive to cloud by Reproaches , groundless Jealousies , and Misconstructions and Perversions , which is not as he would be done by to be sure : But if a Belief of Christ already come , born of the Virgin Mary , being of the Seed of Abraham , and that he was Crucified , died , rose again , and ascended , ( as the Scriptures declare ) be sufficient to entitle a Man to be a Christian , How many do believe and confess thus much of Christ , and yet Unsanctified , Unregenerate , Impenitent , Ungodly and Unchristian , in Spirit and Conversation ? So that they are not in the true living Faith in Christ Jesus , though they have an Historical and Traditional one , and perhaps may be Baptized or Sprinkled with Water too . But of that the Rector here writes somewhat faintly and dubiously , as thought by some also necessary ( i. e. to make a Man a Christian ) page 9. But afterward he is more positive in this Point , That 't is necessary , as the Sacred Ordinance of Christ and Saving , p. 27. Necessary to enter Men into the Kingdom of God , from John 3. 5. p. 28. for Remission and doing away Sins , cleansing of our Souls ; that the Spirit doth Sanctifie the Waters in Baptism , to the mystical Washing away of Sin , p. 29 , 31 , 32. But as for Infants partaking thereof , he evades proof , It is not his business here to prove , he saith , p. 27. So that he both evades defending their own Practice , and leaves People at an uncertainty of the Subjects of this ignorantly supposed Saving , Soul cleansing , and mystical washing Ordinance , ( making use of the Anabaptists Arguments for Baptizing Believers with Water , which is no proof for Rantism ( or Sprinkling ) upon Infants . ) Thus he attempts to shew People the way or means of Regeneration , and entering into the Kingdom of God , and he lays the stress thereof upon the outward Baptism by Water , and not upon the inward Baptism of the Spirit ; he has found out an easie way to make Christians , and to get to Heaven at this rate . His business here being to prove , Whether outward Baptism by Water , is the Sacred Ordinance of Christ , as necessary to be believed and Saving ; or Inward Baptism , i. e. the Washing or Cleansing of the Heart , or an Inward Conversion to God , p. 27. So that by this the Saving Baptism must be the one or the other ; he places it upon the outward Waters of Baptism , as necessary to the cleansing of our Souls , mystical Washing away of Sin , p. 31 , 32. therefore not upon the Inward Baptism of the Spirit , for that was not sufficient , he saith , p. 29. No : What was it good for then ? He tells us , The inward Baptism was but a necessary Qualification for the Reception of the outward Baptism by Water , p. 29. So that the Water is exalted above the Spirit , or the Spirit 's Baptism . But how many Infants ( who are Sprinkled ) can they prove , are thus first qualified by the Inward Baptism of the Spirit ? What confused and bewildred work do we meet withal from some angry Opposers ? Upon the whole , the Man's Definition of a Christian , is summed up in this , viz. That the Washing of Regeneration by the Word of Life , the Inward and Spiritual Baptism , is not Saving , or sufficient to make a true Christian , but Water-Baptism ; and whether that must be of Infants or Believers , we are left at uncertainty by this Rector ; 't is enough with him to cry , It must be with Water , Water ; But who , who , must come under it ? Men or Babes ? Here we are at a loss . What an easie way it is to make Christians , and to get to Heaven , if this be it , viz. Learn and believe your Creed , and that you are inwardly washed , regenerated and entered into God's Kingdom by your Water-Baptism ; Whether as Infants , or grown up , is still the Question ? This Rector boldly tells us , Nay further it appears , That before our Saviour Baptized those in Judea , he represented the Solemnity of Baptism , as a thing necessary to enter Men into that Kingdom of God , to which he invited them ; our Saviour not only telling Nicodemus , John 3. 5. That except a Man be born again , he could not see the Kingdom of God : But yet more plainly , That except he was born again of Water , p. 5. and of the Spirit , he could not enter into it , p. 28. In this Interpretation of John 3. 5. to outward Water , the Rector exactly agrees with the Popish Notion and Interpretation thereof , That no Man can enter into the Kingdom of God , nor into the Fellowship of Holy Church , without Water-Baptism ; as held by the Rhemists , see their Annotations upon John 3. 5. And therein opposed by the Protestants , as appears in Dr. Fulk's Answer , viz. It is not necessary in this place By Water , to understand material Water , but rather the Purifying Grace of Christ. As in Chap. 4. ver . 11 , 14. where 't is called Living Water ; whereof ( he saith ) Washing with Water in Baptism , is an outward Sign . So that the Reform'd Protestants did place Salvation , the New Birth , and entering into the Kingdom of God , upon the Inward Baptism by the Purifying Grace of Christ , and not upon the Outward Element of Water , they esteem'd that but an outward Sign of the Inward . For the outward Baptism by Water , the Rector urges our Saviour's Example and Practice from John 3. 22 , 26. p. 28. as if practised or ministred by Christ himself . But that 's a Mistake , for in John 4. 2. 't is expresly said , Though Jesus himself baptized not , but his Disciples . I have run the farther into this Point in this place , to shew what a Composition the Rector has run Christianity into . But to return to some of his invidious Abuses and Perversions ; For the Credit of his Charge of Venom and Blasphemous Opinions relating to Christianity ( as well as to the Government ) against us , he saith , And to this end and purpose , in the Month of March last past , there were two Books presented to both Houses of Parliament , the one Entitled , A Brief Discovery of some of the Blasphemies and Seditious Principles , &c. The other Entitled , Some few of the Quakers many horrid Blasphemies , Heresies , &c. And also a Sheet Entitled , Some Reasons humbly offered , why the Quakers should be examined , p. 6 , 7. Here we may observe this Rector has owned these same Books , as well as presenting them to the Parliament : Now one of them that is a Libel , stiled , Some Few , has an Owner with the rest . Thou therefore ( John Meriton , Rector , so called ) art accountable for the manifold Abuses , Perversions , Calumnies and Traducings , which are in those Books , and detected in my Truth and Innocency vindicated , which I doubt not but will turn to your great Shame and Disgrace who promoted them ; as will also your strenuous Endeavours to Insence the Government against us , but that they had more Discretion and Prudence than to be influenced by two or three Invidious Persons against a Peaceable and Serviceable People . Now concerning our Christian Profession , on which the Rector makes his Observations , to evince the Venom of Quakerism , as he unjustly defames us . He accuseth us with dubious and equivocal Terms , agreeable to those of the Oracles of the Heathen , p. 7. for our confessing , That our Belief is , That in the Unity of the God-head , there is Father , Son and Holy Ghost , those Three Divine Witnesses , that beare Record in Heaven , the Father , the Word , and the Holy Spirit ; and that these Three are One , according to Holy Scripture Testimony . These the Rector has judged as dubious equivocal Terms , though they are Scripture Terms , see Matt. 28. 19. 1 John 5. 7. John 14. 26. & Chap. 15. 26. But not being content with this our Confession , he begs this Question , i. e. But if not Three Persons , what Three are they ? page 8. Let him prove these Terms by plain Scripture , as we have done ours , and then we shall be resolved , so as not to charge him with dubious Terms . He might have spared his bitter Insinuations against us , as virulent Poison , grossest Errors , equivocal Reserves , wherein they ( meaning the Quakers ) may be thought to exceed their Brethren the Jesuits , page 8. It had been more Prudence for him to have forborne or reserved these bitter Aspersions , than to impose them upon the Reader ; which shews a great Enmity and bitterness of Spirit in the Man. His repeated and partial Citations and Charge against G. F. W. P. and G. W. in page 8 , 9 , 10. are answered and detected in the second part of the other Examination ( i. e. Truth and Innocency , &c. ) under the first Head and Title Concerning the Holy Trinity . What is alledged against G. W. out of Ishmael , &c. page 10. about the Three Persons , ( though wrongly cited by the Rector , p. 9 , 10. ) I have positively disowned that passage twice already ( both as 't is in it self , and as it is none of mine ) and do now a third time disown the same , which none therefore but the Implacable will repeat against me . About a Heaven within , and the Locality of Heaven , p. 10. I do not find either G. F. or W. P. truly quoted or cited upon Examination . The Matter as it concerns G. F. is answered in the other Examination aforesaid . To the Rector's thus construing our Confession , i. e. When they speak of Three Divine Witnesses bearing Record in Heaven , that is to say ( quoth he ) the Heaven within them , p. 10. Thus he imposes his meaning upon us , as if we confined the Divine Three bearing Witness in Heaven , only to a Heaven within us , and not as being in that Heaven without us also ; which is a mistaken Construction , for the Heaven wherein the Divine Three bear Witness , is above , and distinct from the Earth , 1 John 5. 7 , 8. and yet the same Holy Spirit ( which is God ) bears witness in Earth too , even in Mens Hearts and Consciences . His Spirit bears witness with our Spirits , &c. And he that believeth on the Son of God , hath the Witness in himself , 1 John 5. 10. And he that inhabiteth Eternity , and dwells in the highest Heavens , dwells also in the lowest Hearts , even with them that are poor and of contrite Spirits , and tremble at his word , how despised soever they are in the Eyes of the Proud and Envious whom God will debase . And it was no lessening of the Blessed Record of the Divine Three in Heaven , for the Spiritual Believers in Christ Jesus , to be promoted to the Honour and Priviledge of sitting together in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus , Eph. 2. 5 , 6. and their continuing in the Son and in the Father , if the Word ( which they had heard from the Beginning ) remained in them , 1 John 2. 24. As there is a Plurality of Heavens without us , so there are degrees of heavenly States in Christ Jesus within us , if our Conversation be in Heaven . I charge the Rector with a false Quotation and Abuse of me in particular , in his Observation on our Confession to the Divinity and Humanity ( or Manhood ) of Jesus Christ. Where he quotes Truth defending the Quakers , p. 22. and against me saith , Where he affirms Christ's coming in the Flesh to be but a Figure or Example , ( answered in the other Examination , part 1. p. 24 , 25. which are not my words , but in the Priest's 35th Question , wrongly accusing R. Hubberthorn therewith . The Rector also wrongs R. H. and me , in what he adds , viz. Which is also the Saying of R. Hubberthorn , and justified by G. W. in his Judgment Fixed , p. 336. who tells you plainly , what Man Christ the Quakers own , i. e. their Light within only , p. 11. He wrongs me again in both : For 1st , I never understood , that 't was R. H's Saying , that Christ's coming in the Flesh , was But a Figure , nor saw it ever so affirmed under his hand , but by his Adversaries . 2. Neither have I justified that Saying in Judgment Fixed . 3. Neither do I there tell you plainly , that the Man Christ the Quakers own , is their Light within only . I do not confine the Christ to within only , though he be our Light within , as well as he is our Mediator , the Man Christ without . But the Rector , to fasten his Charge upon me , adds , viz. His words ( i. e. G. W's ) are these , Therefore the Man Christ Jesus was , before he came in the Body of Flesh , p. 11. Here the Rector cites a Consequence of a Proposition against me , but not the Proposition it self ; wherein he is unfair : Yet the Consequence proves not , that I either affirm or justifie Christ's coming in the Flesh to be but a Figure : 'T is fully answered in the Examination before ; and my Proposition , from which the said Consequence is drawn , is , John bore witness of that Man Christ , saying , He that cometh after me , is preferred before me , for he was before me , John 1. 15. Again ver . 30. After me cometh a Man , which is preferred before me , for he was before me . Therefore the Man Christ Jesus was , before he came in the Body or Flesh ; he was that Spiritual Rock , which all Israel drank of ; his Life was the Light of Men from the Beginning , and all the Generations of the Righteous did Spiritually partake of the Benefit of Christ , as Mediator ; both before and after his coming in the Flesh , they virtually partook of the Sacrifice of the Lamb , &c. Judgment Fixed , p. 336. Now could this be to deny either the Divinity or Manhood of Christ ? No sure ; but rather a Confession to both . Neither doth it prove our Confession thereunto , only a Paint or Varnish to deceive the Hearts of the Simple , as this Rector would insinuate , though very frowardly and unjustly : And , That Christ existeth outwardly , Bodily without us , at God's right hand ; my Enquiry for Scripture-proof for these words , ( Nature of Christianity , page 41. Anno 1671. ) proves no Insincerity in our Belief of Jesus Christ , as he is truly God and Man , according as Holy Scripture testifies of him ; and questioning those Terms , was not to deny Christ's real Exaltation in Glory , as he is at the right Hand of the Majesty in the Heavens . What the Rector quotes against G. F. and W. P. about Christ , that was Crucified , and his outward Person , &c. p. 12 , 13. is answered and explained in the Examination aforesaid . What he quotes against W. Smith's Primmer , p. 8. printed 1668 , i. e. They that are False ( Ministers ) preach Christ without . Here wants the word Only , viz. they preach Christ without Only ( in opposition to his being within ) for it was so corrected in the last Edition of his Works . What carping and picking work do these Men make against us , to make us Offenders for a word ? We also sincerely confess , We believe and expect Salvation and Justification by Jesus Christ his Righteousness , Merits and Works , ( here they leave out [ and not by our own , ] God is not indebted to us for our Deservings , but we to him for his Free Grace in Christ Jesus , whereby we are Saved through Faith in him ( not of our selves ) and by his Grace enabled truly and acceptably to serve and follow him , as he requires ; He is our All in all , who worketh all in us that is well pleasing to God. To render us Insincere or Contradictory herein , the Rector begins with G. W's Light and Life , thus quoting him , p. 38. viz. The Quakers see no need of directing Men to Jesus Christ or his Blood , as it was outwardly shed at Jerusalem for Justification , &c. Herein he has falsly quoted me , and misrepresented my words , which if he read them , 't was the more wickedly done ; If it was upon the Credit of another's Information , 't was presumptuously foolish , so injuriously to cite them . My words in the place quoted are these ; viz. The Quakers see no need of directing Men to the Type for the Antitype , viz. neither to the outward Temple , nor yet to Jerusalem to Jesus Christ or his Blood ; It should be for Jesus Christ there , knowing that neither the Righteousness of Faith , nor the Word of it , doth so direct , Rom. 10. which is not to disswade People from Jesus Christ where he is to be found , but from going to seek him in the Type before mentioned . The Matter is answer'd before , this Rector had need to be rectified himself . Again , He quotes G. W. thus , p. 55. ibid. Where doth the Scripture say , That the shedding of Christ's Blood outwardly , was the meritorious cause of ( Man's ) Salvation ? And p. 64. It is False Doctrine to lay the meritorious cause or stress of Justification , upon the shedding that Blood let out by the Spear . He has here quoted me partially in both these passages , especially in the last . 1. My Question to the Baptist in the place was this : Where do the Scriptures use those Expressions , and so much vary about the Blood of Christ , as one while to say , that the shedding that Blood outwardly , was the meritorious cause of Salvation , &c. p. 55. 2. Whereas the Baptist accused us with denying the shedding of the Blood upon the Cross , that was let out by vertue of the Spear being thrust into his side , to be the meritorious cause of Man's Justification ( as held in the Affirmative by the Baptist. ) My answer was , The shedding of that Blood let out by the Spear , was an Act of a wicked Man , and the Spear an Instrument of Cruelty , which to lay the meritorious cause or stress of Justification upon , is false Doctrine ; for there is a great difference between Christ's offering up himself by the Eternal Spirit , a Lamb without Spot , to God , and the Acts of wicked Men inflicted upon him ; as 't is said , by wicked hands they put him to death . The Merit , Deserving , Dignity or Worth , is placed upon Christ's Obedience , in offering up himself , and humbling himself to the Death of the Cross for Man's Redemption , as intimated in the consequence , Wherefore God hath highly exalted him , Phil. 2. 9. Therefore the Merit , or Deserving , was not placed upon the Soldier 's Act , of thrusting the Spear into his side , and letting out his Blood thereby , after he had given up the Ghost , John 19. 33 , 34. But upon the Obedience of the Son of God , even unto the Death of the Cross , as that most acceptable Sacrifice for the Sins of the World. Christ's deserving such high Exaltation into Dominion and Glory through his Obedience in Suffering , was for the bringing many Sons to Glory , Heb. 2. 10. consequently That in following him we might be received into Glory ; as they who Suffer with him shall be glorified together , Rom. 8. 17. and this no ways interferes with ( nor varies from ) Our Sincere Belief of Salvation and Justification by Jesus Christ , his Righteousness , Merits and Works , and not by our own ; Christ as our Mediator and the one Offering , has obtained Justification , Remission and Pardon of Sins , and Eternal Redemption for us , which he makes us partakers of , by his Work of Righteousness and Sanctification in us , so that both Christ's Obedience , Deservings and Dignity , without us , and his works within us are concerned in our Salvation and Justification , which his Light and Spirit Leads us to the living Knowledge and Experience of , as We sincerely obey and follow the same ; for the Apostle describes both the washing Sanctification and Justification of true Converts , to be in the name of the Lord Jesus , and by the Spirit of our God , 1 Cor. 6. 11. Therefore I hope it will be no reproach to W. P. or any else to be in conjunction with G. W. in this point as he is accused , p. 14. namely , That our Justification and Salvation is not Effected wholly without us , as if there were no need of the Spirit 's work within us for our Regeneration and Sanctification , all which is Christ's work , being done by his Spirit and Power , which consequently does no ways lessen his Dignity , Glory and Honour , wherewith he was crowned through the Suffering of Death , that he might bring many Sons ( after him ) unto Glory , Heb. 2. 9. Again , the Rector quotes G. Whitehead , in Counterfeit Convert , printed 1694. p. 17 , 18. That it is the Light and Life within , in which , is the Immediate and Efficient cause of Man's Salvation ; And as for the Sufferings and Death of Christ in the Flesh , they do but instrumentally contribute thereunto . The Rector to abuse me , Partially cites me in this place , as if I ascribed Salvation to a Light and Life within , without Christ , or not to Christ ; for what else could he design in bringing this Quotation to confront , or oppose , our Confession ( before cited ) to Salvation by Jesus Christ ? And where do I say in which ( i. e. in the Light and Life within ) is the Immediate and Efficient cause of Man's Salvation , as if I should say something in the Light and Life of Christ were the Immediate cause of Man's Salvation , and not the Light and Life of Christ it self ; this Rector would fain make me speak Non-sence as well as Blasphemy . But by our confessing to the Light and Life of Christ within , as the Immediate and Efficient cause of Man's Salvation from Sin and Condemnation ; we do neither divide Christ nor make two Christs , nor yet by confessing his Suffering and Death in the Flesh as a means of God's appointment instrumentally to contribute thereunto ; He being The Mediator of the New Covenant , that by means of Death for the Redemption of the Transgressions that were under the first Testament ( or Covenant ) they which are called might receive the Promise of Eternal Inheritance , Heb. 9. 15. and as it was by means of Christ that true Christians believe in God , who raised him up from the Dead , and gave him Glory and Honour , that their Faith and Hope might be in God , 1 Pet. 1. 20 , 21. So if Christ our Mediator be the Means , the Cause , and Great Instrument , of our Faith and Salvation , and his Death the Means of our Redemption and Remission of Sins in his Blood ; It can be no dishonour to him to confess his Sufferings and Death in the Flesh , instrumentally to contribute to our Salvation , and that Christ himself by his Light and Life in us , is the Immediate and Efficient cause thereof , thereby fulfilling and confirming in us the blessed and holy Design and Ends of his Sufferings and Death for us . I am not ashamed of my Testimony for Christ in this matter , and give it here more truly than my Adversary has done out of the place quoted , out of Counterfeit Convert , p. 18. viz. That Christ , the Promised Seed , through Death was to bruise under , and destroy , him that had the Power of Death , viz. The Devil , yet he effectually doth it by his divine Power , Light and Life , as the Immediate and Efficient cause of Man's Salvation ; wherein we still confess his Sufferings and Death in the Flesh instrumentally to contribute thereunto . Christ Jesus , as the Promised Seed , who came of a Woman , made under the Law , bruised the Serpent's Head both without us and within us ; without us through his Sufferings and Death ( by his divine Testimony , Word and Power ) within us by his Divine Life , Light , Word ( or Seed ) Spirit and Power , which is all but one Christ himself , not two Christs nor to be divided : Else how could we be born again of Incorruptible Seed ? Or how doth that Seed remain in him that 's born again ? And is not that Seed Christ ? And is not the Word of Faith , Christ in Spirit ? See 1 Pet. 1. 23. 1 John 3. 9. Rom. 10. 6 , 7 , 8. Now where 's the Venom charged in all this Doctrine ? When true and full Recitations are given of our Words , how plain does the Truth thereof appear ? But when our Adversaries give their perverted , minced and false Citations thereof , to traduce us as Venomous in Doctrine ( as this angry Rector has frowardly and frequently done ) How cloudy do they make them and us look ? But Truth will work thorow and over all this dust and cloudy stuff they cast upon us . To what he quotes against Tho. Lawson his Untaught Teacher , printed 1655. p. 4 , 5. Against looking for Salvation from a means without , and seeking a way to Salvation without , p. 15. I have not the Book quoted , but am apt to think T. L's unfairly , or not fully cited in this place , let the Rector produce a fair and full Recitation . However I really believe ( upon our Principle ) that T. L. meant no other than that , as Salvation from Sin is an Inward and Spiritual Work of Christ , Men must expect and wait for it to be wrought within them by the Spirit and Power of Christ , who is the great means and cause thereof ; so that if any seek the way and means of Salvation only without them , and neglect Christ's Appearance and Light in them , they miss their way , though He who is the Great means , obtained Eternal Redemption and Salvation without them , and alone did tread the Wine-press , which we believe , and therefore the Rector's conclusions are false against us . 1. That They ( i. e. the Quakers ) undervalue the Righteousness and Merits of Jesus Christ , purchasing Salvation for us . 2. That they Extol and Magnifie their own Righteousness and Works , like to their Brethren in the Church of Rome , p. 15. 3. That they exceed all the meritorious Boasts of those their Kindred , in affirming that their Sufferings are Greater , and more unjust , than the Sufferings in the days of Christ , &c. I positively deny and Testifie against these Accusations , as Notorious Calumnies to traduce and abuse the People called Quakers , contrary to our Principle and Profession of Jesus Christ , and that Glory , Dignity and Preheminence we sincerely ascribe to him , his Righteousness , Merits , Works and Sufferings . And that 't is by his Grace through Faith we are saved , not of our selves ; 't is the Gift of God , not of Works , lest any Man should Boast , Ephes. 2. Our Confession of Remission of Sin , and Redemption thro' the Sufferings , Death and Blood of Christ , and Faith in him , &c. Tho' this the Rector confesses seems to be very Orthodox , yet he 'll needs have it still but Paint and Deceit , p. 16. Thus uncharitable and incredulous he is of our plain and sincere Profession , falsly inferring , For Remission or Redemption through the Sufferings or Righteousness of another , is not by them ( i. e. Quakers ) believed . Which is false , 't was none of the Question or Controversie between us and our former Opposers ( the Imputarians ) for what the Rector observes out of F. B's Works , p. 33. ( already answered in the other Examination ) and W. P's Sandy Foundation , p. 25 , 30 , 31. and Serious Apology , p. 148. though very brokenly and partially , as well as impertinently cited by the Rector , p. 16 , 17. Yet 't is no ways intended to disbelieve or deny Remission of Sins , or Redemption thro' the Sufferings or Righteousness of Christ Jesus ; But to refuse a Justification of impure and unsanctified Persons , by an Imputative Righteousness , according to W. P's Title of that part of the Controversie , Sandy Foundation , p. 24. or a justifying the Wicked and condemning the Just , which they that do , are Abomination to the Lord , Prov. 17. 15. p. 24. Ibid. which is not to deny the real and true Imputation of Christ's Righteousness to them that are Sanctified , and by Faith have a true Interest in Christ , as partakers of his Righteousness and Holiness . His Imputations or Reckonings , being all True and Righteous ; if he reckons or esteems a Man Just , he is really so . I do not see that W. P. contradicts this Doctrine of Justification in his Primitive Christianity , &c. by his former opposing Justification of Impure , Unsanctified or Impenitent Persons , by an undue Imputation of anothers Righteousness which ( in that State ) they have no share in . Who is that Blessed Man to whom God imputeth Righteousness , & c ? Rom. 4. 6 , 7 , 8. but the Man in whose Spirit is no Guile , Psal. 32. 6. The Rector doubtless thinks he has put a learned and binding Question upon us , viz. Why indeed should they believe Remission of Sins , and Redemption through Christ's Sufferings , and Justification by his Righteousness , when as they believe themselves to be perfect as God , and free from Sin ? p. 17. Answer 1st , Where do we say all this of our selves , as that we believe our selves to be perfect as God ? I would have the Rector produce plain Proof that we say this of our selves . 2dly , That Perfection of Freedom from Sin , which we believe attainable in Christ ; it is not of our selves , nor by our selves , attain'd . We do not pretend to make our selves Perfect or Free from Sin , but by the Power and Work of Christ , and his Righteousness , by a true Faith in him , who is manifest to take away and destroy Sin , the work of the Devil , and to save us from Sin. 3dly , Now suppose any true Believers in Christ Jesus , his Name and Power , should call to others , and say , Come and I 'll tell you what the Lord hath done for my Soul ; he hath redeemed my Soul , he has taken away my Sins , and blotted out my Transgressions , and received me Graciously . And thereupon such a learned Rector as this should Gainsay his Christian Experience by such a Question as this , Why indeed should you believe your Soul is redeemed , and your Sins are taken away and blotted out , through Christ his Righteousness , &c. when you thus believe your self to be free from Sin ? To which he might easily Answer , I did not make my self so : I magnifie the Grace of God in Christ Jesus towards me , what I am , I am by the Grace of God. The rest against preaching for Sin , to continue term of Life , p. 18. is opened in the Examination before . And the Rector is sadly out and wants Rectifying , in his affirming , This Doctrine of Sinless Perfection being the approved Doctrine of the Quakers , to be in Opposition to all Professors of the Christian Faith , p. 18. The Man 's Egregiously out and mistaken in this last part , The Doctrine of Sinless Perfection in Christ , is a true Christian Doctrine , and approved of by all true Believers who are in the Faith of Christ , and Professers of the same ; such Perfection was both commanded and Promised of God , and Preached by Christ and his faithful Ministry , and effected by Christ in his true Believers and Followers , who abide in him ; He that abideth in him Sinneth not . I may here give a full recital of the Question and our Answer , upon which the Rector has made his said Observations , to prove the same still but Paint and Deceit , which is proved to be but his own false Judgment . Quest. Do you believe Remission of Sin , and Redemption through the Sufferings , Death and Blood of Christ ? Answ. Yes , through Faith in Him as he suffered and dyed for all Men , gave himself a Ransom for all , and his Blood so Shed for the Remission of Sins , so all they who sincerely believe and obey him , receive the Benefits , blessed Effects and Fruits of his Suffering and Dying for them ; They by Faith in his Name , receive and partake of that Eternal Redemption which he hath obtained for us , who gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from All Iniquity : He died for our Sins , and rose again for our Justification ; And if we walk in the Light , as he ( i. e. God ) is in the Light , we have Fellowship one with another ; And the Blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all Sin , 1 John 1. 7. Quest. Do you believe and own the Divine Offices of Jesus Christ in his Church ? Our Answer is , Yes verily we believe and own Christ , not only as he is the Light of the World , enlightning every Man coming into it , but also that he is given for a Leader and for a Commander ; And that he is both King , Priest and Prophet , to and over his Church and People . He is the Minister of the Sanctuary which the Lord Pitched and not Man ; and we are to hear him in all things . On this the Rector observes , viz. This Profession of theirs , if Sincere , would indeed comprehend a great part of the Christian Religion ; but if the above Quotations be true , they will give you just cause to suspect them even in this , p. 19. By this our Profession is granted as comprehensive of a great part of Christian Religion , and our Sincerity therein is known to God who judgeth Righteously , and we may not submit it to this Person 's Prejudice or unjust Judgment , and Quotations wherein his Falseness and Partiality are in a great measure already detected : And what he now quotes against our said Profession , out of Tyranny and Hypocrisie detected , p. 19. of S. E's declaring G. F. Blessed be the Man that came out of the North , &c. And a Letter said to be writ by Josiah Coale from Barbadoes , to G. F. in 1658. which this Person saith , is Justified by W. Penn in his Judas and the Jews , p. 44 , 45 , 46. We have heard often of this Letter of J. C's , and of W. P's Vindication thereof , but I find no Reply from this Rector , to Refute W. P. therein ; nor yet any Proof therefrom , of our Insincerity in what we profess as aforesaid , for our believing the Divine Offices of Jesus Christ , in and over his Church ; for though G. F. was truly esteemed among us , as a Faithful Minister of Christ , and a Father in him unto many in the Faith , and an Heir of Christ's Kingdom , yet this was never to Wrest the Scepter out of Christ's Hand , as is falsly insinuated by this Rector , and his Author Edward Pay a Teacher of the Anabaptists , whose Authority is quoted against us , p. 19 , 20. See what hard Shifts this Man is put to for Authority against us , for all his Learning , I may refer him in this Case , to my Answer to Edward Pay , Entituled , The Contemned Quaker and his Christian Religion defended , p. 81 , 82. Wherein I tell him , that his Charge is very high against two Persons deceased , who I believe ended their Days in Peace ; and that I have cause to question , whether the said Letter be truly and intirely copied or cited from the Original ; and what Persons , that are no Parties nor Adversaries to us , will attest thine to be a true and intire Copy , according to Josiah Coale's original Letter , &c. I doubt not but I can clear that Honest Man Josiah Coale , from giving any Blasphemous Titles ( as charged ) and that from his own printed Testimonies ; and G. F. also from receiving such , by his known publick Christian Profession and Confession unto Christ Jesus , both as God and Man , according to the Holy Scriptures . And concerning the other Pamphlet , Tyranny and Hypocrisie , also quoted by this Rector against us , it is a Malicious Libel without the Author's Name ; yet so far given credit unto against us , to asperse and traduce us , though fully answered long ago by W. P. &c Thus hard put to it is this Rector , to find and rake up Matter against our Christian Profession of Christ , his Divine Offices , &c. And therefore 1st , His calling G. F. the King of the Quakers , p. 20 , 21. is a Scornful Falshood , that 's none of our Profession , but that Jesus Christ is our King , Priest and Prophet , who is the King of Kings , and Lord of Lords . 2. As also his accusing G. F. with depriving Christ of his Kingly Office , and assuming it to himself , p. 21. is another notorious Falshood and Calumny , for he was a Minister or Servant of Jesus Christ , and so he owned himself to be , consequently unjustly charg'd with depriving Christ of his Kingly Office , and assuming it to himself : Neither did I ever say , or intend any such thing of G. F. though I am here quoted in Innocency against Envy , p. 18. as plainly intimating , It is not G. F. but the Light or Christ within him , that assumes this Kingly Power , p. 21. I do not know that I used these words , or plainly intimated this in behalf of G. F. nor needed I so excuse him from that which he was never justly chargeable with , as depriving Christ of his Kingly Office , or assuming the same to himself . Neither was it proper or pertinent for me to say , That the Light ; or Christ within , assumes this Kingly Power , p. 21. 'T is Christ's Right to Rule and Reign , both as King and Law-giver ; and his being in us by his Light and Spirit , does not lessen his Power , Dignity or Glory , he hath in himself . And it follows not , that because Christ , who is King , is in us , That every Quaker is a King , because every Quaker has the Light within , as this Priest argues , p. 21. I wish he would speak more Reverently of the Light within , and of Christ within , which if he obeys not , will be his Condemnation ; it 's they that obey Christ , the Light , and suffer with him , that shall Reign with him , and not every one in whom Christ or his Light appears , for too many Rebel against the Light , and will not that Christ should Reign over them . What he quotes against G. F. Jun. p. 50. speaking in the Name of the Light , is answered in the other Examination , and no disowning , but a real owning of Christ's Kingly Office , as he is the Light and Judge of the World. The Rector insinuating against us , A Denial of the Priestly Office of Christ , and also his Humanity , p. 22. is as false as the rest of his Calumnies : Where did ever we deny Christ as the one Mediator betwixt God and Man , even the Man Christ Jesus ? 1 Tim. 2. 5. How often have we confess'd him as such ? His saying the Quakers tells you that Christ was never seen with Carnal Eyes , &c. quoting H. Woolrich's Declaration to the Baptists , p. 13. I have not that Declaration , but it has been answered , that he meant the True Christ is not seen Savingly with Carnal Eyes ; nor though the Jews saw his Body or Person outwardly , they did not see him Spiritually and Savingly , as his Disciples did , who saw his Glory as of the only Begotten of the Father full of Grace and Truth : Christ saith , He that seeth me , seeth my Father also ; in which sence of seeing , he was never so seen with Carnal Eyes , no more than the Father was . Again 't is objected against us , That we teach that Christ has no Body but his Church , quoting Jos. Coale's Works , p. 332. This is falsly charged both against us , and falsly cited against Josiah Coale , for first , We do not so Teach . 2. Though J. C. confesseth the Church to be the Body of Christ in the place quoted , he also confesseth Christ's glorious Body , like unto which his Body the Church shall be fashioned , saying , That Affliction did still attend these Members of Christ's Body , and that this Body ( i. e. ) the Church , though not free as yet from suffering Afflictions , yet shall be fashioned like to his glorious Body , J. C ' s p. 332. So that he owned Christ to have a glorious Body above that of his Members : Therefore it appears neither from hence , nor yet from this Rector's unjust Charge or false Quotation , that the Quakers deny the Mediator , the Man Christ Jesus , as he falsly saith ; much less that they do Scornfully Contemn the Blood of Christ , p. 23. as they are grosly Calumniated and Slandered . What he cites against E. B. and W. P. p. 23 , 24. is answered in the foregoing Examination . And as to Christ's Prophetick Office , we are satisfied that we own it more than these our Adversaries , in that we believe we ought to hear him in all things , by his Light , Word and Spirit , in our Hearts ; for which they so much slight and contemn us ; opposing his Immediate Revelation , Teaching and Ministry in these days , and confining his present Ministry to the Scriptures , in opposition to his Light and Immediate Teaching in Man ; for though Christ did frequently preach from Scriptures , yet his Preaching was with Power and Efficacy , he had power both to open the Scriptures , and the Understandings of them that heard him in opening them ; and also so to touch their Hearts , that they said , Did not our Hearts burn within us , while he spoke unto us ? Which Mens meer literal Preaching cannot do , nor work those Effects : We are to hear Christ in all things , him that speaketh from Heaven ; but saith the Rector , they ( i. e. the Quakers ) neither do nor will hear him , no their Christ within , which they are obliged to , tells them other things than our outward Christ or Prophet does , p. 24. What an Ignorant and Scornful Reflection and Abuse is this , as if either we owned another Christ within than the true Christ and Prophet whom we are to hear ( which is a false Insinuation ) or else that Christ as within , and Christ as without , is not one and the same Christ , which is false also ; neither is Christ divided , though he be both without and within . And where proves this Rector , that the Scripture is the Touch-stone to try Spirits withal ; wherein he takes part with Mat. Caffin ( the Anabaptist Preacher , his affirming the same ) against the Quakers , p. 25. Christ said , Have Salt in your selves , and discerning of Spirits was the Gift of the Spirit , without which none can truly understand or make use of the Scripture . If Tho. Lawson said , The Scripture is not the Tryer of Spirits , as 't is alledged against us , p. 25. I find no Scripture produced to prove this Erroneous ; Christ is the Great Judge and Tryer of Spirits , who searches and tryes the Heart and the Reines ; and it is by his Light and Spirit that Spirits must be tryed and judged , not by the Carnal , but by the Spiritual Man. And what the Rector again cites , out of p. 7. against studying to raise a living thing out of a dead , and the Spirit out of the Letter , &c. was never intended to oppose the Teaching of Christ's Prophetick Office , for his Office never allowed any such Study : Neither do the Quakers deny Christ's Gospel Ordinances which are really such , and by him perpetuated . Here the Rector imposes upon us , and his Allegations fall short of proof . And our not continuing under a Literal and Shadowy Dispensation of Types and Figures , carnal Ordinances , and outward Element , but under a Spiritual Ministry , is rather an Indication of our owning Christ's Offices , his Gospel , his Ministry or Dispensation , than any refusing to hear him , who speaketh from Heaven by his Holy Spirit , Light and Grace in Mens Hearts . What seems most materially objected hitherto in the Rector's Antidote , being answered , I may take notice of some Passages hereafter , farther to shew what he falsly deems Venom of Quakerism , according to his Title and Observations against our Profession . Quest. Do you believe or own Baptism , as Essential to Christianity , or necessary to Salvation ; and for the ingrafting us into Christ and his Church ? ( Our answer is , ) We believe and are fully perswaded , That Baptism , which is Essential to Christianity , and the Saving Baptism , or the Cause , without which none can be true Christians , or Saved , is the Inward or Spiritual Washing of Regeneration by the Word of Life . This is the Saving Baptism into Christ and his Church , which produceth the Answer of a good Conscience towards God , of which the outward was a Figure , 1 Pet. 3. 21. This is that One Baptism of Christ , by One Spirit into that One Body , whereof Christ is the Head. As to Dipping or Sprinkling Infants or young Children , we find no Precept or President in Holy Scripture for the Practice thereof ; and therefore we cannot think , our not-believing it , Essential ( or necessary ) to Salvation ; or making Christians , a sufficient Argument to prove us no Christians ; unless it can be proved , that none are Saved without it , and that all are Saved , that have it . Considering also , what 's positively affirmed in the 39 Articles ; as in the sixth Article , That whatsoever is not read in the Holy Scriptures , nor may be proved thereby , is not to be required of any Man , that it should be believed as an Article of the Faith , or be thought requisite or necessary to Salvation . And in the 20th Article , That the Church ought not to decree or enforce any thing against or besides Holy Writ , to be believed for necessity of Salvation . And in Article 21 , That things ordained by General Councils , as necessary to Salvation , have neither Strength nor Authority , unless that they be taken out of Holy Scripture . On the first part of this Profession , the Rector makes this Observation against us , viz. By this their Answer , they ( i. e. the Quakers ) do not Insinuate to , but plainly tell the World , what Baptism it is that is essentially necessary to Salvation , or making Christians that is the Inward or Spiritual Washing of Regeneration by the Word of Life , the Washing or Cleansing of the Heart , or an Inward Conversion to God , p. 26 , 27. And herein we plainly tell the World the plain Truth , according to Holy Scripture , And what Venom is in this pray ? Had not this Rector need to be severely corrected for opposing this Doctrine , as Venomous , and making the outward Baptism by Water the Saving Baptism , and not the Inward and Spiritual ; As if all the World of Mankind were in a State of Damnation , who are not so outwardly Baptized with Water ; or could be no Christians , nor Saved , if they be not so Baptized or Rantized , as he would have them ; this is like Dip or Damn : Oh! uncharitable and unchristian Doctrine . Has Salvation by Grace been preached so long among us , and must it now be placed on Works ; or on such a superficial Work , as that of outward Baptism , Sprinkling , Dipping or Plunging Persons in Water ? But that the Inward Spiritual Baptism , washing of Regeneration by the Word of Life , the Spirit of Life , the Power of Christ , is the Saving Baptism , the truly Regenerating Baptism , the Baptism essentially necessary to Salvation , and making Christians , and not the outward , nor the Sign , Type or Shadow thereof , is no venomous Doctrine , but agreeable to Holy Scripture Testimony , is evident , from Isa. 1. Wash you , make you clean , put away the evil of your doings from before mine Eyes , saith the Lord , &c. this was an Inward and Spiritual Washing . Jer. 4. 14. O Jerusalem , wash thine Heart from thy wickedness , that thou mayest be saved : This was a Heart-washing , an Inward and Spiritual Washing , whereby they might be Saved . Zech. 13. 1. The Fountain opened to the House of David , and to the Inhabitants of Jerusalem , for Sin , and for Uncleanness ; was a Spiritual Fountain : The Lord God was the Fountain of Living Water , which when they had forsaken , they committed a great Evil therein , as well as in hewing to themselves broken Cisterns which could hold no Water , Jer. 2. 13. And the clean Water the Lord promised to Sprinkle upon his People , to make them clean from all their Filthiness , and to cleanse them from all their Idols , Ezek. 36. 25. was a Spiritual Sprinkling with Spiritual Water , and the Lord 's doing . John 3. 5. Except a Man be born again of Water , and of the Spirit , he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. This was Spiritual Living Water , Inward and Sanctifying Grace , as the True Primitive Christians experienced , and best of Reformed Protestants believed ; and not the outward Element of Water , as Papists and this Rector believe and hold . As in his page 28 ( before more fully observed ) yea he holds , This poor Element ( as he calls it ) of Water , as necessary to do away Sins , and to work upon our Souls , as the Waters of Jordan were to the Cleansing of Naaman , 2 Kings 5. 13. so necessary ( quoth he ) are the Waters of Baptism to the Cleansing our Souls , p. 31. Such Vertue he ascribes to this Element , thus idolizing it , even as highly as the Rhemists against the Protestants , but contrary to Christ's own Testimony also , If I wash thee not , thou hast no part with me , saith our Lord Jesus , John 13. 8. who also required first to make clean the inside , that the out-side might be clean also . Therefore 't was the Inward Spiritual Washing of Regeneration , the Washing or Cleansing of the Heart , by the Word of Life , the Holy Spirit and Power of Christ , which was the Soul's Saving Baptism , and not that of the outward Element , Titus 3. 4 , 5. After that the Kindness of God our Saviour toward Man appeared , not by Works of Righteousness which we have done , but according to his Mercy he Saved us by the Washing of Regeneration , and Renewing of the Holy Ghost . And if the Baptism which doth now save us , be not the Putting away of the filth of the Flesh , but the Answer of a good Conscience towards God , by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ , according to that of 1 Pet. 3. 23. What can be more clear than that the Saving Baptism is that of the Spirit , ( which is the One Baptism , Ephes. 4. 5. ) whereby the Saints were all Baptized into One Body , 1 Cor. 12. 13. and not that of the outward Element , which can neither cleanse the Soul , nor wash away the Sin or Guilt thereof . The Inward and Spiritual Grace Saveth the Soul from Sin and Condemnation , and ought to be preferred to all outward and visible Signs , which can neither Save , nor Sustain or Relieve the Soul , 't is Life and Substance , which is divine can do that . The One Spiritual Baptism , and that One Bread , that Spiritual Meat and Drink which cometh down from Heaven , is that which both saves and nourisheth the Soul unto Eternal Life , John 6. 1 Cor. 10. That Disciples and Apostles of Christ did Baptize with Water , is not denied , Acts 8. 36 , 38. & ch . 10. 48. & ch . 19. 3 , 4 , 5. but that they did Practice , or enjoin it as an act of necessity , pursuant to Christ's Commission in Matth. 28. 19. is to impose upon us , or beg the Question ; but that it was rather permissively practised in con discention , than by that Commission . For 1st , Water is not expressed in that Text. 2dly , When they Baptized with Water , they did not use the terms of the Commission in it . We do not read in all the Acts of the Apostles , that any of them Baptized with Water , in the Name of the Father , and of the Son , and of the Holy Ghost , or that they used those expressions or terms , in their Baptizing with Water , but in the name of the Lord , or in the name of the Lord Jesus . If Water had been intended in that Commission of Christ , Matth. 28. 19. the Apostle Paul must be concerned in it , it must be as much binding to him as any other Minister , but he declares the contrary , that Christ sent him not to Baptize but to Preach the Gospel , 1 Cor. 1. 17. he does not say Christ sent me not only to Baptize , but positively , for Christ sent me not to Baptize , but to preach the Gospel , which was part of the Reason he gave why he thanked God that he had baptized no more than those he mentions , 1 Cor. 1. 14 , 15 , 16. as well as , Lest they should have said , he had baptized in his own name ; for 't is not to be supposed he would thank God for not performing part of his Commission , if it had been to Baptize with Water , as well as to Preach the Gospel ; but that positive and general Reason , for Christ sent me not to Baptize , but to preach the Gospel , leaves no room for him to say Christ sent me to Minister Water-Baptism ( in his Commission in Matth. 28. 19. ) for Water-Baptism was properly John's Baptism and Ministry , to make way for Christ's higher Dispensation and Spiritual Ministry , Matth. 3. 11. Mark 11. 8. Luke 3. 16. John 1. 16. Acts 1. 5. & 10. 16. compare with Acts 19. 2 , 3 , 4. But I need not enlarge on this subject , to answer the Anabaptists Argument for Plunging , or dipping Believers in Water , unless this Rector were in the Practice thereof , and renounced his Rantism , as they do as a Scriptureless Thing , as they term Sprinkling Infants . But referr him to a Treatise of one that was of his Coat , i. e. William Dell his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Or , The Doctrine of Baptisms . To the Rector's Referring the Reader to that Excellent Piece of Water-Baptism ( as he terms it ) writ by that worthy and Ingenious Author ( as he applauds him ) of The Snake in the Grass , &c. printed 1697. p. 29. Thus highly has he commended the Author of that Great Defaming and Reproaching Libel , i. e. The Snake in the Grass ; but it would be too difficult a Task for him to defend the manifold Gross and Abominable Lies and Calumnies contain'd therein , against the manifest detection and discovery made of them , not only in my Antidote against the Venom of the said Snake , &c. but more fully , in a farther Scrutiny made in a Book now Extant , Entituled , Anguis Flagellatus : Or , a Switch for the Snake . By Joseph Wyeth . When this Rector can demonstrate a Probatum est , of such vertue in that Poor Element ( as he calls it ) of Water-Baptism , as to cleanse and cure polluted and distempered Souls from Sin , Spiritual Leprosie and Diseases , as Naaman the Assyrian was cured of his Leprosie by washing seven times in the River of Jordan , 2 Kings 5. 13. or as the Blind Man found in washing in the Pool of Siloam that he receiv'd Sight and came seeing , John 9. — 11. unto both which the Rector alludes in 's comparison for Water-Baptism ; Then I say if he can evince a Probatum of such vertue therein , according to his own comparison , It will be a most pregnant Argument to induce People to believe 't is required of them , to be dipt or baptized in the Element of Water , and to hasten into it , especially if they can believe it can effect such a Miracle , as an Inward and Spiritual Cure upon their Souls , as to Cleanse and Cure them from Sin and the Leprosie thereof , as well as from Spiritual Blindness , which answers the Allusions before ; and the more necessity thereof , if they may not be so cured without it , as this Rector saith of Naaman , If he had neglected it , he had not otherwise been cured , How much more then ( quoth he ) when God has appointed the means of Baptism by his Son , if we neglect it , shall we be saved without it ? p. 31. This is like Dipp or Damn still , and yet all this while he may mean Rantism , which is not properly Baptism ; but I deny either ( i. e. with the Element of Water ) to be the means of Salvation , or that as such , God has so appointed them , and that Men shall not be Saved without them ; ( i. e. without Sprinkling or Dipping in Water ) the Rector still imposes and begs the Question in all these , without Scripture proof . I would not be understood to own or allow any despite to Water-Baptism , or inventing contemptible Names for it ( as the Rector insinuates ) as it was once a Dispensation from Heaven to John Baptist ; nor do I either condemn , despise or contemn any who are tenderly Conscientious in the Belief and Practise thereof , but desire they may see and come further , so as to receive that Inward Spiritual Baptism , the Washing of Regeneration , by which Christ effectually Saveth the True Believers in him ; I desire none may Idolize the outward Element of Water which cannot Save , to hinder them of the Inward which can Save . And it being generally granted , that the outward Baptism is an outward and visible Sign of an Inward and Spiritual Grace , and Type or Figure of the Inward Baptism . I wish Men would be so considerate , as to examine what Necessity there can be of the continuance of the Sign or Type , when they do not hear Christ the Great Prophet directing thereto ; nor does it effect the end proposed , i. e. the Washing away of Sin , seeing the Substance and Mystery thereof is made manifest , and a Spiritual Dispensation or Ministry from Heaven given immediately , directing to the Life , Substance , the end of all Shadows , which really end in Christ the Substance , whose Evangelical Ministry is a Dispensation of the Grace of God , of Substance and not of Shadow . Quest. Do you believe or own the Lord's Supper , either as a Sign of the Love that Christians ought to have among themselves , or as a Seal of the Saints Communion , and Commemoration of Christ's Death for us , or as Figurative of Christ's Body and Blood , Spiritually received by Faith ? Answ. The Supper of the Lord we own , and tenderly consider in a Two-fold Sense , 1. In the Figure ; 2. In the Substance . 1. That our Lord Jesus Christ , at his Supper with his Disciples , did eat the Passover ( which was for the fulfilling and Consummation of the Feasts under the Law , see Luke 22. ) and at this Supper he did take and minister Bread and the Cup to his Disciples ( for there was no Transubstantiation ) saying , This do in remembrance of me . And ( saith the Apostle ) As often as ye eat this Bread , and drink this Cup , ye shew the Lord's Death , till he come , 1 Cor. 11. After this they did more clearly know his Coming , and Christ after the Spirit ; Jesus Christ in them , 2 Cor. 13 , 5. & 5. 16. 2. And Christ said to his Disciples , I will not drink henceforth of this Fruit of the Vine , until that day I drink it new with you in my Father's Kingdom , Matt. 26. 29. And likewise of the Passover , I will not any more eat thereof , until it be fulfilled in the Kingdom of God , Luke 22. 16. And he further said , I appoint unto you a Kingdom , as my Father hath appointed to me , that ye may eat and drink at my Table in my Kingdom , &c. Luke 22. 29 , 30. In these things we believe he spoke Mysteriously , and that every Member of his Spiritual Church , doth daily Spiritually partake of his Body and Blood by Faith ; as , The Cup of Blessing , which we bless , is it not the Communion of the Blood of Christ ? And the Bread , which we break , Is it not the Communion of the Body of Christ ? For we being many , are one Bread , and one Body , for we are all Partakers of that one Bread , 1 Cor. 10. 15 , 16 , 17. The Son of God saith , Behold I stand at the door and knock , if any Man hear my voice , and open the Door , I will come in to him , and will Sup with him , and he with me , Rev. 3. 20. And Wisdom calleth to the Simple , Come eat of my Bread , and drink of my Wine , Prov. 9. 4 , 5. And , saith Christ , The Bread of God is he , that cometh down from Heaven , and giveth Life unto the World. I am that Bread of Life ; my Flesh is Meat indeed , and my Blood is Drink indeed ; He that eateth my Flesh , and drinketh my Blood , dwelleth in me , and I in him , John 6. We believe , that all who thus do truly partake of Christ by Faith , are in true Communion and Love among themselves ; which they do want , who are only in the outward Observation of Signs and Shadows . Upon which the Rector makes this Observation , viz. The Reader may here discern , how by their deceivable Words , and manifold Corruptions of the Scriptures , these horrid Impostors set themselves at work , to evade and make null the Holy Ordinance of the Lord's Supper , as instituted and administred in Bread and Wine , &c. p. 34. Reply . He passes severe Judgment before either Proof or Trial , as one more expert in Railing and Reviling , than in Demonstration . For our considering the Supper of the Lord in a Two-fold Sence : 1. In the Type or Figure . 2. In the Substance ; Is neither Deceivable , nor Corruption of Scripture , consequently ; 't is a horrid Calumny to brand us as Horrid Impostors for such Consideration . We know none but Papists , that will deny the outward Bread and Wine to be Typical , though Consecrated ; We are sure , no real Protestants do deny them to be Typical , or Figurative , but have affirm'd them so to be . And whether the Supper of the Lord , or Christ's Last Supper ( in the Type ) Luke 22. was made up only of the Bread broken , and the Cup , is a Question to be considered by them who assert it ; or whether the Passover was not principally concern'd in the Supper , seeing , that also after Supper Christ took the Cup , and gave them : I deny , that the Bread and the Wine only , as now ministred by Priests , is either properly a Supper , or a Dinner ; How then come they to call it The Supper of the Lord ? Or deny it to be a Type or Figure , by deeming us Horrid Impostors , for asserting , the outward Supper to be Typical ? 'T is true , it 's said , As oft as ye eat this Bread , and drink this Cup , ye do shew the Lord's Death , till he come , 1 Cor. 11. 26. I hope our Adversary will not make As oft , to import a Command , and that perpetual too , unless till he ( Christ ) come , can import a perpetual Delay of his Coming . And though Christ's Last Supper , wherein he eat the Passover with his Disciples , was then ( pro tempore ) commanded by him ; yet this does not prove it his Institution : For it was a Legal Institution , fulfilled by him , as other Legal Rites and Types were , before he was offer'd up . That Christ , as the Bread of Life from Heaven , and his Divine Virtue , Grace and Spirit , as the Fruit of him , the heavenly Vine ( which gives Life , Nourishment and Comfort unto the Soul ) was really the Substance and Mystery typified by the outward Bread and Cup , I hope , no Spiritual Believer or Christian will deny . And to suppose , they shall not partake thereof , until Christ's Coming at the Resurrection , is to suppose , their Souls must starve and famish in the mean time ; which can be no glad Tidings to them . The Rector falsly charges us with saying , The Resurrection is past already ( as Hymeneus and Philetus , 2 Tim. 2. 18. ) p. 34. 'T is none of our saying ; we deny that the Resurrection ( there spoken of ) is past ( or made ) already ; or that we overthrow the Faith of any believing therein , as it is to come by Christ Jesus , who is the Resurrection and the Life , and by whom comes the Resurrection of the Dead , 1. Cor. 15. And I would ask this Rector , where we say or use these Expressions , That the Institution of the Lord's Supper was only to continue , till that , Inward Coming , or forming of Christ in our Hearts , and for that Reason throw off the outward Supper ? p. 34 , 35. Where have we so said , or argued ? For our not using the Type , is rather , because we do not believe it of Force or Necessity under an higher Dispensation , namely , that of the New Covenant , established by the Death of Christ the Testator , who blotted out and nailed the hand-writing of Ordinances to his Cross ; the Dispensation of the Gospel and New Covenant , being a Dispensation of Substance , and not of Shadows ; although they were in some things condescended unto in a State of Infancy , when not impos'd as things Essential to Christianity or Salvation . It 's true , that they who gladly received the Word , continued stedfastly in the Apostles Doctrine and Fellowship , and in breaking of Bread , and in Prayers , Acts 2. 42. And Verse 46. And they continuing daily with one Accord in the Temple , and breaking Bread from House to House , did eat their Meat with Gladness and singleness of Heart . No doubt they were very Innocent in this Practice , Praising God , &c. v. 47. And this we have often done , and believe , it is the Duty of all true Christians , to eat their Meat with Singleness of Heart ; and whether they eat or drink , to do all to the Glory of God , 1 Cor. 10. 31. Col. 3. 17. And what greater Sanction can this Man suppose or place , upon what he calls the Lord's Supper ? Ought we not to praise God for all his Benefits , and use them to his Glory daily ; and not only in a daily Remembrance of Christ and his Love to us , but also in a true sense thereof , and of his Sanctifying Word . In Acts the second quoted , it 's also said ( Verse 44 , 45. ) And all that believed were together , and had all things common , and sold their Possessions and Goods , and parted them to all Men , as every Man had need . Now , if our Opposers will make all Examples and Practices binding , then why do they not follow this , of having all things common , and selling their Possessions ? &c. I do not think the Priests now a-days will imitate them , or deem themselves bound thereby . And where do they so much as imitate those Primitive Believers , in breaking Bread from House to House ? And how will they prove this Breaking of Bread only to be the Lord's Supper ? I deny that to be made up only of Bread ; and I cannot suppose this Man will esteem it a sufficient Supper . Nor do I find , that the Apostles call Believers , only breaking Bread from House to House , ( Acts 2. ) or the Disciples coming together to break Bread ( Acts 20. 7. ) the Lord's Supper ; where they neither mention Wine , nor the Passover : Nor would it be of good report , to say they drank Wine from House to House : And if it should be asserted , That the Lord's Supper was made up only of breaking Bread , would not this gratifie the Popish Priests , in giving their Sacrament but in one kind ? However , the outward Bread , as broken , and the outward Cup , as ministred by our Lord Jesus Christ , were not only Figurative of his Body and Blood , as offer'd upon the Cross ; but also did Typifie the Saints Eating and Drinking the Body and Blood of Christ Spiritually , who saith , My Flesh is Meat indeed , and my Blood is Drink indeed ; And he that eateth my Flesh , and drinketh my Blood , dwelleth in me , and I in him , John 6. And I 'll raise him up at the last day , saith Christ. Therefore it 's no Corruption of Scripture , nor Imposture , to consider the Supper of the Lord in the Figure , and in the Substance . And as to these other Texts , 1 Cor. 10. 15 , 16 , 17. Rev. 3. 20. Prov. 9. 4 , 5. John 6. Matt. 26. 29. Luke 22. 16 , 29 , 30. They ( i. e. the Quakers ) offer to the view of the World , I cannot discern or imagine ( quoth the Rector ) to what End and Purpose this is done , unless it be to amuse the Reader , abuse the Scriptures , or confute themselves , Page 36 , 37. Reply . It was to none of those Ends these Texts are offer'd , but to shew our Consideration of the Lord's Supper , in the Substance and Mystery thereof , as Typified by the outward , that there is a Spiritual Bread and Wine , Spiritual Meat and Drink in Christ's Kingdom , for the enlivened Soul to eat and drink of , and live by , which the Visible and Elementary did Typifie and Figure , Prov. 9. 5. Wisdom saith , Come eat of my Bread , and drink of the Wine which I have mingled : That this was Spiritual Bread and Wine which Christ the Wisdom of God hath in his House for his Family ; I hope will not be denied . Matth. 26. 29. But I say unto you , I will not drink henceforth of this Fruit of the Vine , until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's Kingdom . Luke 22. 16. For I say unto you , I will not any more eat thereof ( i. e. of the Passover ) until it be fulfilled in the Kingdom of God. And vers . 18. I will not drink of the Fruit of the Vine , until the Kingdom of God shall come . And vers . 29. I appoint unto you a Kingdom as my Father hath appointed unto me . Vers. 30. That ye may Eat and Drink at my Table in my Kingdom . Now I would ask our Opposers if they think This was meant Litterally of Eating and Drinking outward Bread and Wine in the Kingdom of God , and of Christ , and at an outward Table therein ? If not Litterally meant , then it must be Spiritually , as Christ's Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom . God's Kingdom stands in Power , in Righteousness , Joy and Peace in the Holy Ghost , and not in outward Forms and Shadows ; and in this Kingdom is the Substance and End of all the Outward Shadows and Types thereof , which being expressed under the same names the Types are , is the more evidently to shew the End and Anti-type thereof , in Christ the Life and Substance . John 6. 51. I am the Living Bread which came down from Heaven , if any Man eat of this Bread , he shall live for ever ( saith Christ. ) And vers . 54. Whoso eateth my Flesh , and drinketh my Blood , hath Eternal Life , and I will raise him up at the Last Day . See also vers . 53 , 55 , 56 , 57 , 58. Did Christ mean Litterally herein ? No sure , This Bread which came down from Heaven , was not the outward Sign , Type or Figure , but the Spiritual Living Bread , which giveth Life to the Soul , and is Meat indeed unto it , as his Blood is Drink indeed , to all Spiritual Believers in him , who are come to Eat and Drink of the same Spiritual Meat and Drink , which Israel did Eat and Drink of , as testified , 1 Cor. 10. 3 , 4. That they Did all Eat the same Spiritual Meat ; and did all Drink the same Spiritual Drink : For they drank of that Spiritual Rock that followed them ( or went them ) and that Rock was Christ. And of these things the Apostle would not have his Brethren at Corinth Ignorant , vers . 1. — and vers . 15. I speak as to wise Men , Judge ye what I say . Vers. 16. The Cup of Blessing , which we bless , is it not the Communion of the Blood of Christ ? The Bread which we break , is it not the Communion of the Body of Christ ? Vers. 17. For we being many , are one Bread , and one Body : For we are all partakers of that one Bread. And vers . 18. Behold Israel after the Flesh : Are not they which eat of the Sacrifices partakers of the Altar ? From all which it is Evident , the Apostles chief Aim and End was , to bring those Believers to Life and Substance , beyond and above the Shadows and Types , that they might not be Inferiour to Israel after the Flesh , in their eating and drinking of the same Spiritual Meat and Drink , even of that Spiritual Rock , which was Christ , and be true partakers of him , as the one Offering and Passover , who was sacrificed for us ; see also 1 Cor. 5. 7 , 8. Rev. 3. 20. Behold , I stand at the Door and knock , if any Man hear my Voice , and open the Door , I will come in to him , and will Sup with him , and he with me . This Christ the Faithful and true Witness declareth , for the encouragement of all to open the Door of their Hearts to him , that they may come into spiritual Communion with him , and therein partake with him of his spiritual Supper ; unto which this Rector partly ascents , in saying , I make no doubt , but all good Christians own Christ to be the Bread of Life , and of Spiritual Communion with him in his holy Ordinances , p. 37. And I say , there 's no doubt , but true Christians have Spiritual Communion with Christ , in truly hearing , and sincerely obeying him in those things , which may be truly called his holy Ordinances and Institutions perpetuated by himself , and attended by his divine Authority for the Sanction thereof ; but then Men should have a Care they do not impose humane Institutions and Traditions for Christ's , and say , they are His , tho' without any express Warrant from him either Mediate or Immediate . We know none among us , that either slights , vilifies or contemns any holy Institutions or Ordinances of Christ , or any thing which God or Christ ever commanded , whether now in force or not ; neither do I condemn any one , who believe 't is their Duty to observe Baptism , or that which is termed the Supper , whilst they do it with a sincere Intention , as Conscientious towards God therein ; they seeing no further , nor yet designing to oppose the Discovery of an higher Dispensation and Ministry . Altho' I heartily with ( as I hope ) that all such may see more clearly , and beyond the Shadows to the Substance and Mystery of Christ revealed ; that the one saving Baptism , and the one living Bread from Heaven , they may all experience , and truly partake of . One thing ( by the way ) I would note , what Construction our Adversary makes of 1 Cor. 11. 26. As often as ye Eat this Bread , and Drink this Cup , ye do shew the Lord's Death till he come . This [ till he come ] is construed , Till Christ's Outward , Personal Coming , visible in his Body of Flesh and Bones at the Resurrection , to make our vile Bodies like his own Glorious Body , p. 34 , 36. According to which Interpretation , if we should read , 1 Cor. 11. 26. As oft as ye eat this Bread , and drink this Cup , ye shew the Lord's Death till he come Personally and Visibly at the Resurrection : It would import as if the Corinthians were to stay , and live upon Earth in the Observation of the Outward Bread and Cup , Eating and Drinking thereof until then , i. e. until Christ's Last Coming at the Resurrection ; But how could that be ? But seeing Christ's Eating and Drinking at his Supper with his Disciples , was Spiritually to be fulfilled in his Father's Kingdom , and at his Table in his Kingdom ( as he promised ) according to Luke 22. 16 , 18 , 29 , 30. Matth. 26. 29. some may inquire when this should be fulfilled , and when this Kingdom should come to Saints and true Believers in Christ ? Whither in this Life , or in the last Day , when Christ shall come in the Glory of his Father , with his Angels , to reward every Man according to his Works ? Matth. 16. 27. To which I Answer , Christ saith in the very next verse , Verily I say unto you , there be some standing here , which shall not tast of Death , till they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom , Matth. 16. 28. And the like in Mark 9. 1. Verily I say unto you , that there be some of them that stand here , which shall not tast of Death , till they have seen the Kingdom of God come with Power . The like in Luke 9. 27. All which shew the Kingdom Then near to come , even in their days ; consequently , the Saints partaking of the Blessing thereof , was , and is in their Life time , wherein they partook even of the Spiritual Supper of the Lord , the Spiritual Meat and Drink at Christ's Table in his Kingdom , wherein the Substance and Fulness of all Types and Shadows consists , and whereof every true Spiritual Christian is partaker . By all which 't is Evident , that there is just Cause to consider the Lord's Supper in the Substance and Mystery of Christ , and that his Kingdom , wherein the same is Spiritually received , ought not to be put afar off , nor true Believers excluded out of it , until Christ's Last Coming at the End of the World , and the Resurrection in the Great and Last Day . Neither ought poor Souls to be left starving and famishing under Shadows , and a barren Ministry , until then ; for that can be no Glad Tidings , or true Gospel to them , therefore all had need to be careful , and take heed , that they don't famish their poor Souls , by neglecting the Substance , and feeding upon Shadows . And that the Bread and the Cup , which Christ gave at his Supper , were a Figure or Typical , was confessed by divers Eminent Martyrs , as John Frith in his Reasons upon the Sacrament , treating of Christ the Promised Seed , saith , Likewise the same Promise was made unto Moses , the most meek and gentle Captain of the Israelites , which did not only himself believe upon Christ , which was so often promised ; but also did prefigurate him by divers Means , both by the Manna which came down from Heaven , and also by the Water wich issued out of the Rock , for the refreshing the Bodies of his People . Neither is it to be doubted , but that both Manna , and this Water , had a Prophetical Mystery in them , declareing the very self-same thing , which the Bread and the Wine do now declare unto us in the Sacrament : For , thus saith St. Augustine , Wbosoever did understand Christ in the Manna , did eat the same Spiritual Food , that we do ; but they which by that Manna sought only to fill their Bellies , did eat thereof and are Dead . On the Margent it is , Manna , the Water of the Rock , a Figure of Christ's Body : Bread and Wine a Figure likewise of Christ's Body , 1 Cor 10. See 2 Vol. Martyrs , p. 305. printed 1641. And Dr. Cranmer , Arch-Bishop of Canterbury , confesseth , Christ's Speech , i. e. [ This is my Body ] to be Figurative ; and quoting Ambrose in 1 Cor. 11. he calleth the Bread and the Cup Signs , a Type , Figure or Sign of the Blood of Christ , and of his Benefit ( in his Disputations in Oxford , Vol. 3. Mar. p. 59. ) And ( p. 54. Ibid. ) he saith , The Flesh liveth by Bread , but the Soul is inwardly Fed by Christ. And Dr. Ridley ( Bishop of London ) in his Disputation at Oxford , saith , And as one of the Fathers saith ; a Figure is in vain , where the thing signified is present , Ibid. p. 74. And p. 75 , 76. In Opposition to the Popish Doctrine of Transubstantiation , he saith , The sayings of the Fathers declare it to be a Figurative Speech ; as appeareth in Origen , Tertullian , Chrysostom ( in Opere Imperfecto ) Augustine , Ambrose , Basil , Gregory ▪ Nazienzen , Hilary , and most plainly in Bertram . The rest of the Rector's Observation , relating to Baptism , Bread and Wine ( pag. 37 , 38. ) is answered in the Just Examination of the Two Books of the Three Norfolk-Priests . Quest. Do you believe and own the Holy Scriptures , contained in the Books of the Old and New Testament , to be given by Divine Inspiration , and to contain all Matters of Doctrine and Testimony , necessary to be believed and practis'd , in order to Salvation , and Peace with God ? Answ. Our Answer is , Yes , we do ; and by the assistance of the Grace and good Spirit of God , which gives the true Understanding of the Mind of God , and Meaning of Holy Scripture , we always desire to live in the Faith , Knowledge and Practice of them in all things , appertaining to Life and Godliness ; Holy Scripture being given by Divine Inspiration , is profitable for Doctrine , Correction and Instruction , that the Man of God may be perfect , thorowly furnished unto every good Work , able to make the Man of God Wise unto Salvation , through Faith which is in Christ Jesus . In the Observation made upon this our Profession , the Rector is pleas'd to question the Sincerity thereof , which he leaves to the World , and the Reader to judge , p. 39 , 42. But our Sincerity is known to the Lord , to whom we commit our Cause . And being prejudg'd by this pretended Rector , we shall not leave it to him to be Judge over our Sincerity , or Conscience towards God. For being all along Prejudicate in his Observations , he had need to be corrected for his Vncharitableness and Censoriousness . The first Instance he gives to disprove our Sincerity , is a Quotation of some Quakers out of the Quakers Refuge , p. 17. against John Whitehead and Robert Ruckhill , Whether the first Penman of the Scriptures was Moses or Hermes ? &c. With other Questions , which are answered over and over in divers of our Books , and particularly in my late Examination , entituled , Truth and Innocency ( p. 57. ) wherein 't is made evident , that those Questions did not arise from any Doubts or Scruples in the said John Whitehead or R. R. but in some others ; and therefore waved , as not the Subject of R. R's Argument , who recited them in the said Quakers Refuge . Consequently very unjustly quoted against the Quakers , to render them Insincere , in the same Confession , to the Truth of the Holy Scripture , as given by Divine Inspiration . What the Rector quotes against E. Burrough , G. F. W. P. G. W. &c. in p. 40 , 41 , 42. concerning the Scriptures , and the Word of God , &c. is also answered in the said Examination , p. 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23 , and p. 58. I cannot but take notice how Credulous ( as well as Envious ) this Rector appears , in repeating Fra. Bugg's Old Lie , to defame us , bidding the Reader , See Lawson's Threefold Estate of Anti-christ , p. 9. The Scripture is Dust and Death , Beastly Wares , &c. p. 41. I would ask this Rector , whether he has seen these very Words in the place quoted ? Or if he has ever read the said Lawson's Threefold State of Anti-christ ? If he says , he has , I 'm sure , he is guilty of a notorious Lie in this Quotation , for there is not a word of calling the Scripture Beastly Ware , &c. But Babylon's Merchants selling Beastly Ware for a large Price , &c. p. 9. And if he received this Quotation upon Credit from F. Bugg , he is very Vnjust and Immoral therein , in receiving and promoting such a Reproach against his Neighbours to defame them ; which Offence is justly Condemn'd by the righteous Law of God. Another apparent Abuse I find against Samuel Fisher his Appendix , p. 752. Printed 1679. by a partial and unjust Citation , in curtailing and perverting his Words , to make them look , as if writ in Contempt of Holy Scripture , where the Rector saith , Samuel Fisher has these Words ( speaking of the Text of Scripture ) Which Transcriptions and Translations , were they neve so certain , and entirely answering to the first Original Copies , yet are not capable to be ( to all Men ) any other than a Lesbyan Rule , or Nose of Wax — T his worthy Author , in his Works , has the Testimony of Luke Howard , H. Fisher , and W. Penn , p. 40. Thus this Adversary has injuriously dealt by Samuel Fisher , rendering him to speak these words of the Text of Scripture , which are spoken in reference to the various Transcriptions , Translations , Interpretations , Expositions , Senses and Meanings , Thoughts and Conceits of Men , who Comment upon them , and not to the Text of Scripture , purely consider'd : The Rector having left out both the foregoing and subsequent Reasons of Sam. Fisher's words , which clear his intention , both from his Calumny of the Venom of Quakerism , and from his insinuating Insincerity against our said Profession . I may therefore recite part of them in S. F's behalf , he not being here to vindicate himself , and the Truth profess'd by him ; which in his Life-time he largely vindicated , to the great Confusion of his Opposers , where he saith , Moreover , how intirely soever the Transcriptions are , the Translations , which is all the Rule the People have ( unless the Priest's prattle must be their Rule ) are confessed to be the most various , and abominably and wofully corrupted ; Witness J. O. who is scarce more busie to evince the entireness of his Hebrew and Greek Text , than in evidencing the Erroneousness of all Translations , some of which that are most ancient , and of most account among most Priests ( as the Septuagint ) are gone off ( quoth J. O. ) from the Original in a Thousand Places twice told . — Thus they run the bounds , trace to and fro , and dance up and down in their dark Minds , about the Transcriptions and Translations of their Text , which they take to be their Rule ; which Transcriptions and Translations , were they never so certain and entire by answering the first Original Copies , yet are not capable to be ( to all Men ) any other than a Lesbyan Rule , or Nose of Wax ; for as much as even where Men have them ( as half the World has not ) they are liable to be wrested , and actually twisted twenty ways by Interpreters , whose Expositions , Senses and Meanings , which are as many and various , as the Thoughts , and Conceits , and Inventions of the Men are , who Comment upon them , must be the Rule to such as can read them neither in Hebrew , nor in Greek , nor in their own Mother-Tongues neither . Appendix , p. 751 , 752. Now to clear S. Fisher , from esteeming the Text of Holy Scripture , in it self , either a Lesbyan ( or Leaden ) Rule , or a Nose of Wax , but only the Corrupters and Perverters thereof , making them such , that it may appear , how well he esteemed of the Holy Scriptures , he in the same Book with the said Appendix , quoted against him ( i. e. Rusticus ad Academicus , Printed in Quarto , 1660. in his Second Apologetical and Expostulatory Exercitation , Chap. I. p. 6. he calls the Scripture a Declaration of those things that were believed , and of the Word of Faith , that was preached , a writing Holy Scriptures , Scriptures of Truth , Books of Writing , that consists , treat of , and declare in forms of plain , true , suitable and sound Words , various true things , &c. So that as written in the Spirit , the Holy Scriptures may be said to be Homogeneous Writings , all of one kind : But in respect of the several Businesses written of therein , they are Heterogeneous ( i. e. ) a Body or Bulk of as various Writings , as any extant in the World besides them . And in p. 48 , 49. he condemns Mens Mis-renderings , corrupt Copyings , and Commentings , and making the Scripture to stand , which way any Critick pleases . And farther saith , As 't is my continual Exercise in Works to do it ( i. e. to condemn such their Corruptions and Perversions ) so do I here , in plain Words , exalt the Scripture , which they so debase ; and state it over all their Trash and Trumpery , even on the very top of all their long Train of Traditions , and over the Archest Title of the Tripple-Crown , the proudest Pinnacle of Peter's ( now Un - Peter-like ) painted Temple , the highest Point of that Pompous , Pious , Pitteous Pillar and Ground of Truth , the choicest Chapter of that Holy Church , and infallibly Erring infallible Chair . And in p. 49. he farther declares himself , a just , plain and impartial Pleader for the Scripture , and a doer of Right to those Holy Writings , which are egregiously wronged by both Papists and Protestants , &c. And p. Ibid. he argues for many ( i. e. who are falsly suppos'd to be slighters and disowners of Scripture ) who , to give it its due and no more , ( as indeed it is ) do own , honour , and exalt the Holy Scripture , much more , and more truly than any of your exalted selves , &c. And p. 112. The Scripture testifies of the Word which will endure . Thus S. Fisher has cleared the Point , of his great Value and Esteem of the Holy Scripture , considered in its highest , primitive , best and purest Aspect , as at first given forth ; quite contrary to his being supposed a Contemner thereof . Quest. Do you believe the Doctrine of the Resurrection from the Dead , and of Eternal Judgment , and the Immortality of the Soul ? Answ. We sincerely believe and confess the Doctrine of the Resurrection from the Dead , and of Eternal Judgment , according to Holy Scripture Heb. 6. 2. That God will raise the Dead , and judge the World in Righteousness , by his Son Jesus Christ , in the Day appointed , even in the Great Day of Judgment , and that Harvest , which is the End of the World. That the Soul of Man , though created , is Immortal , and never dies . Even as these Doctrines are more fully testified in Holy Scriptures , by Jesus Christ and his holy Apostles . 1. For the Doctrine of the Resurrection , see Mat. 13. 43. and Chap. 22. 30 , 31. Mark 12. 25. Luke 20. 36. John 5. 29. 1 Cor. 15. 19 , 35 , 36 , 37 , to the 53d verse . Phil. 3. 29. Col. 3. 4. 1 John 3. 2. 1 Thess. 4. 16. Rev. 20. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. 2. Of Eternal Judgment , see Mat. 13. 39 , 40 , 41 , 42. Chap. 10. 15. & 11. 24. & 25. 30 , 31 , 41. Mark 8. 38. Luke 9. 26. Acts 17. 31. John 5. 22 , 27. Acts 10. 42. 2 Thess. 1. 7 , 8 , 9. 2 Tim. 4. 1. 1 Pet. 4. 5. 2 Pet. 2. 9. Jude 6. 3. For the Immortality of the Soul , see Gen. 1. 27. & ; 2. 7. 1 Kings 17. 21. Mat. 16. 26. Mark 8. 36 , 37. Eccles. 3. 21. & 12. 7. Luke 16. 22 , 23. 2 Cor. 5. 1 , 2. In the Observation upon this Profession ( On our sincerely believing and confessing the Doctrine of the Resurrection from the Dead , according to Holy Scripture . ) The Rector thus reflects , That is according to their Sence and Interpretation of Holy Scripture , which is no ways agreeable to the Sence and Interpretations of any Orthodox Christians , p. 43. Which is as undue a Reflection , as 't is uncharitably Censorious . And what he quotes against our Sence , out of W. Penn's Arguments , against such a Carnal Resurrection of Man's Carnal ( or Natural ) Body ( as some imagine ) out of his Reason against Railing , p. 134. is no proof at all , That our Sence of Holy Scripture ( in this case ) is no ways agreeable to the Sence and Interpretation of any Orthodox Christians ; unless he can either prove the same Natural , Carnal and Numerical Body that now is , to be the Resurrection Body , or the Apostle Paul Heterodox in asserting it a Spiritual Body ; for a Natural Body is sown , a Spiritual Body is raised , and that was not first which is Spiritual , but that which is Natural , and afterward that which is Spiritual , 1 Cor. 15. 46. & ver . 37. and our Sence clearly agrees with this . His other Instance to disprove our Sence herein ( if rightly cited ) is out of Thomas Ellwood's Answer to G. Keith's First Narrative , p. 149. printed 1696. In 1 Cor. 15. 37. he makes the Apostle thus speak ( saith he ) The Body that shall arise , is not the same Carnal Body that dies . No , the Body that is sown is a Natural Body , but the Body that is raised is a Spiritual Body ; it is sown a Natural Body , it is raised a Spiritual Body , ver . 44. And that none might think this Spiritual Body was the same with the Natural Body , he adds ( quoth the Priest ) there is a Natural Body , and there is a Spiritual Body . He does not say ( quoth he ) the Natural Body is made a Spiritual Body , or the Natural Body and the Spiritual Body is but one and the same Body , but he sets them in opposition as two distinct Bodies ; and ( again ) that none might think this Spiritual Body was the same , he adds , There is a Natural Body , and there is a Spiritual Body , p. 27. Thus far the Rector . This Addition , as he counts it , and repeats twice over against Tho. Ellwood , to make him an Offender , is the express words of the Apostle Paul , 1 Cor. 15. 44. There is a Natural Body , and there is a Spiritual Body . Thus the Apostle uses the same distinction between the Natural Body and the Spiritual Body , Where does he say , They are both one and the same Body ? And farther to evince the distinction , Paul adds , And so it is written , The first Man Adam was made a living Soul , the last Adam was made a quickning Spirit . Howbeit that was not first which is Spiritual , but that which is Natural , and afterward that which is Spiritual , ver . 45 , 46. Now I ask these Men , 1st , If the first Adam , and the last Adam , were one and the same Adam ? 2. If the Spiritual Body , and the Natural Body , be one and the same Numerical Body ? And 3. If the Celestial Bodies , and the Bodies Terrestrial , be one and the same Bodies ? see ver . 40. and ver . 37. And thou sowest not that Body that shall be : Whom shall we believe in this case , the Apostle or this Priest ? for they differ herein ; the one says , Thou sowest not that Body that shall be ; and the other , 'T is the same Body that shall be : The one says , Flesh and Blood cannot Inherit the Kingdom of God , 1 Cor. 15. 50. The other I presume ( upon his Principle ) says , The same Carnal Body ( i. e. of Flesh and Blood ) can and shall Inherit the Kingdom of God. But then how agrees his Notion herein with his Beloved Friend ( their Assistant ) Geo. Keith , his affirming , The Husk or drossy part , that is no more the true Body , than dross in a lump of Rich Ore of Gold is Gold ; as in his Gross Error and Hypocrisie detected , p. 13. And what he means by the Husk or drossy part , may be gathered from his affirming ( concerning the Body of Christ that was Crucified ) that It is so wonderfully changed , as to the Mode and Manner of its being , that it is no more a Body of Flesh , Blood and Bones , but a pure , Ethereal , or heavenly Body , like unto which the Bodies of the Saints are to be at the Resurrection . See G. Keith's Way Cast up , p. 131 , 132. 1676. So that the Flesh , Blood and Bones , the Saints now have , must be the Husk or drossy part , which they shall not have in the Resurrection , but pure Ethereal or heavenly Bodies , like Christ's glorious Body : And if so , 1st , How shall they remain one and the same in Substance or Essence they now are ? 2. How shall they be the same in Substance , without Flesh , Blood and Bones ? 3. What shall be their Substance or Essence , when they shall be no more Bodies of Flesh , Blood and Bones ? 4. How will this Priest and G. K. reconcile themselves in this Point , of the Sameness of Bodies ? If one affirm the Resurrection Bodies shall be the same Flesh , Blood and Bones , ( or at least the same Flesh and Bones ) they now are , and the other , they shall be the same in Substance , but no more Bodies of Flesh , Blood and Bones ? Let them reconcile and demonstrate the same , we are satisfied with the Appointment and good Pleasure of God in this weighty Matter , and to wait upon him in the hope of the Resurrection of the Just unto Eternal Life and Glory , sincerely believing that God will give a Body as it pleaseth him , and to every Seed his own proper Body , 1 Cor 15. 38. And do not think it necessary to Faith and Salvation , to be too curious or inquisitive , as to the very Mode or Manner of the Resurrection Bodies , and How God will manifest his Pleasure therein , Let 's live well here , and it shall be well with us hereafter ; say to the Righteous , it shall be well with them ; but Woe to the Wicked , it shall be ill with them , Isa. 30. 10 , 11. I refer the Ingenuous Reader to several further Answers in this Great Point of the Resurrection , ( i. e. My Antidote against the Venom of the Snake in the Grass , p. 102 to 111. And to the Christian Quaker , printed 1674. Part II. p. 316 to 167. & p. 168 to 173. where also Dr. H. Moor is largely cited on the same subject , in his Modest Enquiry into the Mystery of Iniquity , and Search into the Nature of a Glorified Body . And as to what 's objected against R. Hubberthorn ( who was both a very Innocent , Gifted and Knowing Man , if rightly quoted ) his owning the Glorified Saints in Heaven to be in a State of Perfection , and as having received the Redemption of the Body ( i. e. from the Bondage of Corruption and Sin , even before they came thither . ) This no ways contradicts our sincere Belief and Confession Of the Doctrine of the Resurrection from the Dead , according to Holy Scripture , Heb. 6. As to what is objected against G. W's Questions ; Is it ( i. e. the Glory of God ) visible to the Carnal Eye ? And of Christ's coming therein , &c. p. 46. I would ask this Rector , Doest thou expect to see this Glorious coming of Christ from Heaven , with thy carnal Eyes thou now hast ? 2. If thou neglectest his Inward and Spiritual Appearance and Work , mayest thou not neglect thy own Salvation thereby ? 3. Seeing our Lord Jesus Christ , The King of Kings , and Lord of Lords , only hath Immortality , dwelling in the Light which no Man can approach unto , whom no Man hath seen , nor can see , &c. 1 Tim. 6. 15 , 16. How canst thou expect to see him with thy Carnal or Fleshly Eye ? Hast thou better , clearer , and more lasting Eyes of Flesh than all other Men ? When I have thus questioned any , it was in Opposition to their neglect of Christ's Inward and Spiritual Appearance and Work , effectually to save them from Sin and Condemnation . This Point is more fully answered in our Books , and particularly in my Examination , Entituled , Truth and Innocency vindicated , p. 61 , 62. And my thus questioning the Carnal Expectations , &c. of some Persons , I affirm , as 't was never intended to oppose or contradict our sincere Belief or Profession , That God will Judge the World in Righteousness ( by his Son Jesus Christ in the Day appointed , even in the Great Day of Judgment , and that Harvest which is the End of the World. ) So neither does what 's quoted against the same Profession , contradict it , unless it can be proved , that Men may see the Power and great Glory of God , with their Carnal Eyes they now have ; or that with the very same they shall see Christ at his last coming to Judgment in the Glory of the Father , and all his Angels with him , Matt. 16. 27. What the Rector objects against that Man of God William Dewsbery , to prove us Insincere in our said Profession ( that God will Judge the World in Righteousness by Jesus Christ , &c. ) and him ( the said W. D. ) guilty of gross Perversion . Herein our Accuser has shewn himself as Ignorant as Envious , and as void of Christianity . He quotes the said W. Dewsbery's Discovery of Man's Return , printed 1654. upon a Passage where Rev. 20. 12 , 13. & 2 Cor. 5. 10. are only quoted , with other Scriptures in the Margent of the said Discovery , which the Rector recites at large , and then makes his Observation against W. D. viz. Observe here his Gross Perversion , he applying all this to the Light within , and the Judgment within ; so that the outward Judgment at the Last Day , which is here so plainly described , is not by him professed as a thing to be expected , p. 46. Ans. I cannot but observe the Ignorance and Enmity of this Person , what he objects against the said W. D. is no proof at all that he did not profess or own Eternal Judgment , or the final Judgment and Rewards at the Great and Last Day . His words cited are these , viz. Every one arise out of your Earthly Wisdom , and mind the Light in thy Conscience , and wait on the Power of the Lord in it , and it will bring thee to Judgment before the Throne of the Lamb ( viz. within thee added ) where the Righteous Law will be opened in thy Heart , that will cry through thy Earthly Heart for Righteousness and Judgment , and the Book will be opened in thee , where thou shalt see all written , that thou hast done in the Body , and shalt give an Account for every idle Word , ( i. e. to the Light within added also ) and receive thy Reward for what thou hast done ; and thy Reward is Wrath and Condemnation , which will pass upon thee from the presence of the Lamb ( within thee , again added ) for thy Disobedience and breaking of the Righteous Law. Where is the Insincerity or gross Perversion in all these words recited by the Rector ? Or any Opposition to our Profession before mentioned ? Surely , to mind the Light of Christ in the Conscience , to know his Power in it to bring Man to Judgment , according to the Righteous Law in the Heart , and thereby to see the Record that is made in Man , of all the Evils done and committed by him : This cannot be to oppose or contradict our Profession , that God will Judge the World in Righteousness by his Son Jesus Christ in the day appointed , but in order to bring Man to Repentance , that he may escape the Judgment and Wrath to come , upon the Impenitent World of the Ungodly . And therefore our Adversaries bringing this Citation out of W. Dewsbery's said Discovery of Man's Return , either to evince the Venom of Quakerism ( falsly charged ) or our Insincerity or Opposition to the Doctrine of Eternal Judgment , &c. This shews our Adversaries Insincerity and great Ignorance of the Work of Repentance : The Rector has need to be corrected in this as in many other weighty Points , his Enmity appearing chiefly against the Light within , which both manifests and Judges those things that are reproved in God's sight ; For can any be truly humbled unto Repentance , before they are convicted , and know what Sins and Evils they are guilty of , and chargeable for , in the sight of God , and of the Lamb Christ Jesus , who is Judge both of the Living and of the Dead ? Surely no : He who is the Heart-searcher and Tryer of the Reines , and the very Inward Affections ; who sheweth unto Man what his Thoughts are , will bring every Work to Judgment , with every secret thing , whether it be Good or Evil ; and if his Judgments do not take effect upon Men in this Life , to humble them unto Repentance , his Eternal Judgment will be heavy upon them in that which is to come . 'T is by the Spirit of Judgment and Burning that the Lord Purgeth his People ; and it is through Judgment that Sion is redeemed , and her Converts , with Righteousness . And how plain is it , that W. Dewsbery's Testimony in this case , even as 't is recited , respects the present Law , Light , Judgment and Righteousness of Christ in Man ; and also cautions Men of ( and points at ) the future Judgment , Wrath and Condemnation , as that which will pass ( in the future ) upon the Rebellious , for Disobedience , and breaking the Righteous Law : And both the Judgment that comes upon Man here , and that which will come hereafter upon Man , for Disobedience and Rebellion against the Light and Law of Christ in Man , it all proceeds from the presence of the Lamb Christ Jesus , to whom all Judgment is committed , and Power given to execute it . Awake , awake to Judgment , therefore , all you that are a-sleep in Sin , that Mercy and Judgment may meet , and Righteousness and Peace embrace each other ; that being Judged as Men in the Flesh , you may live according to God in the Spirit , 1 Pet. 4. 6. And all who sincerely desire after God , and to remember him in his ways , must wait for him in the way of his Judgments , as his Servants of old did , Isa. 26. 8. And though this Adversary has added in the Citation [ within thee ] after , the Throne of the Lamb ; and after , the presence of the Lamb , he adds [ within thee ] : And after , shalt give an Account for every idle Word , he adds [ i. e. to the Light within . ] And , the Book will be opened in thee , he puts , [ IN THEE ] in Capital Characters , as if it were a Crime or Error to own the Lamb of God to have a Throne or Dominion in Man , or the Light within to be Judge of every idle Word . Which still bespeaks a secret Enmity against the Light , and as if the Light were neither to Judge nor to Record Mens Actions in the Book of Mens own Consciences ; whereas the contrary is evident , if they will search and examine their own Consciences , and be willing to bring their Deeds to the Light in them that they may be manifest , proved and Judged . For every one that doeth Truth , cometh to the Light , and bringeth his Deeds to the Light , that They may be manifest , that they are wrought in God , John 3. And 't is certain , that there is a Record made of Mens Iniquities , even in their Hearts and Consciences by the true Light ; as the Sin of Judah was graven upon the Table of their Heart , Jer. 17. 1. And without true Repentance it will not be blotted out of that Record , but will remain unto the Great Day of Judgment , and final Recompence of Rewards , when the Books shall all be opened , and the Dead Judged out of those things written in the Books , every Man according to their Works , Rev. 20. So that the Judgment given , and the Record made in Mens Consciences , by the true Light even in this Life , will not wear out , nor be made void , but remain unto the Last Judgment of the Great Day to come , to the great Joy of the Righteous , and Shame , Contempt and Misery of the Wicked , and finally Impenitent , who live and die in their Sins . As it is testified in Job 21. 30. That the Wicked is reserved to the Day of Destruction ; they shall be brought forth to the Day of Wrath. And Christ spoke of such as would not receive his Ministers , nor hear their Words , Verily , I say unto you , it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment , than for that City , Matt. 10. 15. compare with Chap. 11. 22 , 24. and Mark 6. 11. and Luke 10. 12 , 14. All which signifie a Day of Judgment to come , And as it is appointed unto Men once to die , but after this the Judgment , Heb. 9. 27. As also the Apostle Peter speaks of the Day of Judgment and Perdition of Ungodly Men , 2 Pet. 3. 7. And also 2 Pet. 2. 9. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the Godly out of Temptations , and to reserve the Unjust to the Day of Judgment to be punished . And Jude v. 6. And the Angels , which kept not their first Estate ( or Principality ) but left their own Habitation , he hath reserved in Everlasting Chains under Darkness , unto the Judgment of the Great Day : In which Great Day it will fully appear , that the Judgment given , and the Record made in Mens Consciences by the Light , is true , and will stand for ever against the Wicked , the willful Unbelievers and finally Impenitent . And that there is no Opposition nor Contradiction between the present Judgment of Christ in Mens Hearts and Consciences , and that which is to come . That the Soul of Man , though created , is Immortal , and never dies : This we still believe and confess , and what the Rector quotes ( as he supposes ) against it , out of G. F. his Great Mystery , and W. Penn's Brief Answer , p. 47. ( if rightly considered and compared ) will not make void our Belief and Profession , which I have answered and explained over and over ; and so has W. P. by his Distinction between the Breath or Spirit of Life , which God breathed into Man , and Man himself , who thereby became a Living Soul : Consequently the Soul of Man is created , as well as Man ; being included in the Being of Man , as the more Noble and Spiritual part , inspired by the Divine Breath or Spirit of Life , whereby Man became a Living Soul. And this Distinction is clearly implied in G. F's Great Mystery , though unfairly quoted ; What 's more Explanatory , being left out by this Adversary , and more fully answered in my aforesaid Examination , Entituled , Truth and Innocency vindicated , &c. against the three Norfolk Priests , and Bugg , p. 7 , 8 , 9 , 60. That we are Sincere in our Profession of Christianity , in what is contained in our said little Pamphlet ( as he calls it ) entituled , The Christianity of the People called Quakers Asserted , we are not Conscious to our selves of the contrary , nor Convicted of any Insincerity therein , by this Rector's , or any others Invidious Essays or Attempts , nor from any Instances which either he or his Brethren , or F. Bugg , have produced against us . Nor are we Conscious to our selves of holding Tenets or Doctrines , which are either directly opposite , or contradictory to these he calls New Creeds , if impartially cited , and truly explained , which they have not done in their Invidious Endeavours against us , consequently we find no cause to Retract , Censure or Condemn , the Tenets or Doctrines which we hold ; and therefore his Charge of Horrid Blasphemies we reject , as an odious Calumny , proceeding from a Proud , Envious , Persecuting Spirit , which the Lord will Rebuke ! Neither has he shewn from those Instances against us , any such Horrid Blasphemies , as he tells of ; but rather his own Perversions , Ignorance and Envy : The Lord deliver poor Souls from such Blind Guides , that they may not fall into the Ditch with them ! For some of their Leaders , the Priests , especially those of them , that are of an Envious , Persecuting Spirit , are the most Blind and Ignorant of the Mystery of Christ , and of those things which pertain to his Kingdom . FINIS . 
A65886	----	A serious account in XXXV evident reasons (to all who desire satisfaction) why the people of the lord, called Quakers, cannot go to worship at those places called churches and chappels, and to inform the magistrates and ministers that such consciencious people (as are separated from these places) ought not to be compelled (from their peaceable meetings) to their worship and churches, so called, being a short discovery of the way, worship, and principles of the true ministers and persecuted people of God, in several exceptions against the practices, worship, and principles of the priests, both of the Presbyterians, and Episcopal-men, and others of the same affinity, in some of which principles the Presbyterians are the rather concerned, but in others of them, both are concerned in the general / by Geo. Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1661 Approx. 91 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 21 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. 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A65886) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58917) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:23) A serious account in XXXV evident reasons (to all who desire satisfaction) why the people of the lord, called Quakers, cannot go to worship at those places called churches and chappels, and to inform the magistrates and ministers that such consciencious people (as are separated from these places) ought not to be compelled (from their peaceable meetings) to their worship and churches, so called, being a short discovery of the way, worship, and principles of the true ministers and persecuted people of God, in several exceptions against the practices, worship, and principles of the priests, both of the Presbyterians, and Episcopal-men, and others of the same affinity, in some of which principles the Presbyterians are the rather concerned, but in others of them, both are concerned in the general / by Geo. Whitehead. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-07 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-08 John Cords Sampled and proofread 2005-08 John Cords Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A SERIOUS ACCOUNT In XXXV Evident Reasons , ( To all who desire Satisfaction ) Why the People of the Lord , called QUAKERS , cannot go to Worship at those places called Churches and Chappels ; And to inform the Magistrates and Ministers , That such Consciencious People ( as are separated from these places ) ought not to be compelled ( from their Peaceable Meetings ) to their Worship and Churches , so called . BEING A short DISCOVERY of the Way , Worship , and Principles of the true Ministers and persecuted People of God , in several Exceptions against the Practices , Worship , and Principles of the Priests , both of the Presbyterians , and Episcopal-men , and others of the same affinity : in some of which Principles the Presbyterians are the rather concerned ; but in others of them , both are concerned in the general . By Geo. Whitehead . London , Printed for Robert Wilson , at the Sign of the Black-spread-Eagle and Wind-mill , in Martins Le Grand , 1661. THE CONTENTS Of the following REASONS . 1. COncerning the true Worship and Meetings which God hath called us to ; and of what he hath called us from . 2. Of the Education of the Priests . 3. Of their humane Learning . 4. Of Tythes and forced Maintenance . 5. Of the Priests Unreasonableness , in spoyling mens goods . 6. Of their Persecuting and Compelling men . 7. Of the manner of their Preaching . 8. Of the manner of their Worship . 9. Of their Sinning in their best Performances . 10. Of the Trade of their Preaching . Then the falshood of the Priests and Professors Principles . 1. Concerning the Light. 2. Their confusion about the Light. 3. Of the Offer of Salvation . 4. Of the Death of Christ. 5. Of Perfection . 6. Of the Priests Exhorting to endeavour after it . 7. Of Election and Reprobation . 8. Of Original Sin. 9. Of the Serpent , and the forbidden Fruit. 10. Of Justification , and of Sanctification . 11. Of the Believer's Faith , and its Work. 12. Of the Priests meanings upon the Scripture . 13. Of the Gospel . 14. Of the Foundation and only Rule . 15. Of Swearing . 16. Of Revelation and Inspiration from Heaven . 17. Of Sprinkling Infants . 18. Of Bread and Wine , which they call the Lords Supper . 19. & 20. Of the Church and Seal of the Covenant . 21. Of Bishops and Presbyters . 22. Of the Priests Ordination . 23. Of the Common-prayer-Book . 24. Of the Priests grosse Ignorance about their Publick Baptism . 25. Of the true Church and its Head. I. Concerning the true Worship and Meetings which God hath called us to ; and of what he hath called us from . THe LORD GOD of Truth and Righteousness hath gathered us by his mighty Power out of the worlds Ways , Worships and Traditions , which were never set up by the Power of God , and from the Priests and Teachers of the world , which are made and set up by the Traditions and Wills of men , who preach for filthy lucre and gain ; which thing was ever abhorred and denyed by all the true Ministers and holy People of the Lord , who feared God and hated Covetousness in all Ages ; as also we are brought by the Power of the Lord God out of the Worlds Temples , or Houses , ( which are falsly called Churches ) and brought into the Worship of God , which is in the Spirit and in the Truth , Joh. 4. VVhich Worship Christ taught , when he foretold the end of that Worship which was at Jerusalem , in the Temple which once God commanded to the Jews under the Law ; which , with the outward things that pertained to it , and to the Priests and Worshippers in that Temple ( as outward Musick , Instruments , Singing , Tythes , Offerings ) were all to cease , as Figures , or Types , when a more inward and mysterious Way and Worship in the Spirit was brought in and revealed by Christ , to the Saints and Christians of the New Testament ; who ( as they grew in the power of God to enjoy the enduring Substance and end of Figures and Shadows ) they grew out of these outward things ( that were but as Figures ) into the knowledge of the glorious Gospel , and the Mystery of its Fellowship , which outshined and transcended all these shadows under the Law. See Heb. 9. & chap. 10. which Gospel and Mystery we are come to know and witness , to the praise and glory of our God. And to this Testimony did the holy Apostles and Ministers of Christ bear large Witness ; as did the Martyr Stephen , when he preached Christ ( whom the people were to hear in all things ; and he that would not hear , was to be cut off , Deut. 18.18 . Act. 7.37 . and 3.23 . ) and called them stiff-necked and uncircumcised in hearts and ears ; who were in their blind zeal for the outward Temple , and so witnessing to Christ the substance and end of the Temple , He told them , The most High dwelleth not in Temples made with hands ; and for his Testimony he was stoned to death , Act. 7.47 , 48 , 51. And so we being brought to hear and learn of Christ the Prophet , whom the People were to hear in all things , lest they were destroyed ; and being made a spiritual house , Church , and living Temples in which God dwells and walks according to his Promises , 2 Cor. 6.16 . who hath brought us out from the Idols Temples , false Worships and Teachers : we may not uphold nor joyn with that Worship that is upheld in these places , which the world calls Churches and Chappels , which God never commanded nor set up ; but the Papists and such as were apostatized from the Life of the Saints into men's Traditions and Inventions ; neither ought the Magistrate to compel us to these places of Worship against our Consciences ; but as it is the just duty of the Civil Magistrates to punish evil-doers , and to be a praise to them that do well , ( Rom. 13. 1 Pet. 2 14. ) So they ought rather to protect ( than hinder ) our peaceable Meetings , which are in the Worship into which God hath called us by his Spirit . And whether our Meetings be in houses or fields ( we being brought to meet together in the Name and Power of Christ ) we meet according to the Example of the People of God and true Christians in the primitive times , when they were brought both from the Jews Temple , and from the Gentiles Temples and Worships , and sometimes met in houses , sometimes abroad in the Fields , and upon Mountains , sometimes by the Sea-side , &c. as many examples might be mentioned . See Matth. 5.1 . Joh. 20.19 . Act. 10.27 . chap. 12.12 . and 16.13 . and 20.8.20 . and 28.30 . Heb. 10.25 . Mal. 3.16 . So , would it have been just or righteous to have persecuted these Christians for meeting in houses , and to have termed their Meetings Conventicles ? or to have made any Laws against them for the breaking of their Meetings , and for imprisoning them for meeting in houses , as many of the People of God have been dealt with for no other cause , but for being in their Example and Life ? And it is as much against our Consciences , and the Law of God in us to deny to meet together in the Name of Christ ( wherein we have long and often met ) as it was against Peter and John's Consciences to deny to speak in the Name of Jesus , when the Rulers among the Jews did so command them , which they could not obey , but chose rather to obey God , than man , Act. 4.18 , 19. As also it was against the Prophet Daniel's Conscience , to obey King Darius his Decree , which was , That whosoever should ask a Petition of any God or man for thirty dayes , save of the King , should be cast into the Lyons Den : But Daniel , contrary to this Decree , did pray to his God as he was wont to do , Dan. 6 , 7 , 9 , 10. and we might as well be commanded , not to speak any more in the Name of Jesus , or , not to call upon the Lord , as to have our peaceable Meetings ( which are in the Name of Christ ) broken , and to be halled violently out of our Meetings when we have been calling upon the Lord in Prayer ; as many of us have been thus dealt by , and not suffered to enjoy our Meetings , to call upon the Lord in them as formerly . II. Of the Education of the Priests . ALso it is against our Consciences to go to worship with the World at these places called Churches and Chappels , because the Lord hath brought us to see the Education and fitting of the hireling Priests to their Ministry at Oxford and Cambridge , to be set up in the Apostacy , when there was a degenerating from the state of the true Church of the Saints : And the way they are made Ministers , is contrary to the way the true Ministers of Christ were made ; for they were not made Ministers by natural learning of natural Languages , Arts , Sciences , Traditions , Inventions of men , and studying the several kinds of Philosophy , and learning out of old Authors ; nor ordained according to man's will , as the Priests are , who by their natural industry and study attain to their Learning and Knowledge , as the natural man may do , who knows not the things of the Spirit of God ; and as Pilate and other Learned men , who knew not God nor Christ , had the learning of Tongues , Joh. 19.19 , 20. But the true Ministers of the New Testament received not their Gospel of man , nor were made Ministers by the will of man , but by the Gift and Revelation of CHRIST in them , in which they owned and approved one of another , Gal. 1. 1 Pet. 4.10 . But these Priests have told us that Revelations and Inspirations from Heaven are long since ceased , contrary to Christ and his Apostles Doctrine , and so shew themselves to be both out of the knowledge of God ( which is revealed to the Saints , Matth. 11.27 . ) and never sent of God or Christ : and therefore it is against our Consciences to sit under their Ministry , which they never received ( nor had Commission for ) from God. III. Of their Humane Learning . AS also the Apostle ( who preached not in the words which man's wisdom taught , but in the words which the holy Ghost taught ) said to the Church , Beware , lest any man spoyl you through Philosophy and vain deceit , after the Traditions of men , after the Rudiments of the world , and not after Christ ; and bad Timothy avoid opposition of Science , falsly so called , Col. 2.8 . 1 Tim. 6.20 . 1 Cor. 1. & chap. 2. And when the Word of the Lord prevailed among the Jews and Greeks , where Paul preached , many of them which used curious Arts , brought their Books together ( which were counted worth fifty thousand pieces of silver ) and burned them openly , Act. 19.18 , 19. so that the Priests idolizing natural Learning , and crying it up with their Philosophy , natural Arts and Sciences , as their means to fit them to their ( Trade of ) Preaching , is in the darkness of Apostacy and Antichristianism , contrary to the Life and Word which the Apostles and true Ministers were in , and preached ; which Word was before natural Learning and Languages were , and Plough-men , Herds-men , Fisher-men , and the like , were made Ministers of the Word among the People of God of old , Exod. 3.1 . 1 King. 19.19 . Amos 7.14 . Matth. 4.18 , 19 , 20 , 21. though humane Learning we own to be of use in its own proper place , as a natural thing , but not to be made an Idol of , as the Priests do . IV. Of Tythes and forced Maintenance . THe Lord hath brought us to see , that the Priests taking Tythes and forced maintenance from people , is contrary to the Doctrine , Practice and Example of the Ministers of the Gospel ; neither do they live of the Gospel , when they force Tythes and Maintenance from people by an outward Law of man , or help of the Magistrate to compel people to pay them ; for the true Ministers who lived of the Gospel , and whose words and works agreed ; they preached the Gospel freely , and laboured to keep it without charge , as Christ commanded , Matth. 10.8 . 1 Cor. 9.18 . And their Maintenance was freely administred to them , in that love which their Gospel had begotten in the hearts of such as received them , without compulsion or persecution ; as , where they had sown spiritual things , there they might reap of their carnal things for their relief . Also the Apostle preached the end of that Law and Priesthood of Levi , which upheld Tythes , and who received them for their service done at the Tabernacle , and out them , the Fatherless , Widdows , and Strangers were relieved , Numb . 18.21 . Deut. 14. but this was under the Law , which Christ ended , and changed that Priesthood , Heb. 7. Neither is Melchizedeck's receiving the tenth of the Spoyls which Abraham once freely gave him ( when he returned from the slaughter of the Kings , Gen. 14. ) any example for the Priests yearly forcing the Tenths of men's Labours and Estates from them , and their taking Easter Reckonings , Midsummer Dues ( so called ) and making Bargains with people for so much by the Year for preaching , and yet saying they are Christ's Ambassadors : This is exceeding gross , and contrary to the practice and example of the true Ministers of Christ. And therefore we cannot own such covetous men to be our Teachers , for the Apostle bad turn away from such , 2 Tim. 3.5 . for they are guilty of them that went in Balaam's way for reward , and of the sins of the false Prophets and Priests in Israel , who preached for filthy Lucre and Hire , and sought for their Gain from their Quarters , Isa. 56.11 . Jer. 5.31 . Micah 3.11 . And these Priests are like Eli's Sons , who were sons of Belial , in their taking away mens goods by force , 1 Sam. 1. and not like Samuel , who could challenge all Israel to testifie against him , whose Dr , or whose Asse he had taken , or whom he had oppressed ? or , at whose hands he had received a gift to blind his eye therewith , and he would have restored it again ? but none could accuse him ▪ but justified him as free from these things , 1 Sam. 12.3 , 4. As also it was the false Shepherds that fed themselves , and not the flock ; and with force and cruelty ruled over them as the Priests do , Ezek. 34. and against such the Lord was as he is against them now . V. Of the Priests Unreasonableness , in spoyling mens Goods . ANd what shameful work have these Priests made in their suing many honest men at Law for Tythes , and spoyling their Goods , and fraudulently taking away Goods many times more than the Tythes demanded ; As also they have cast many into Prisons for Tythes , several of whom have dyed in Prisons ; And thus have they dealt by many that are separated from them , whom they do no work for , nor preach to , and such as can buy none of the Priests ware , nor spend their money for that which is not bread ; knowing the Fountain of LIFE [ whereto all that thirst , may come freely , and freely drink , without money or price ] and the gift of the Spirit of God within , and a part in his Wisdom , which is not to be bought nor sold for Silver or Gold , Isa. 55. Job 28. So thus the Priests forcing Tythes and Goods from them they do no work for , is both contrary to all Equity , Reason , or Scripture , and their grievous oppression upon the Poor and the Nation , hath caused the Nation to groan , and the Land to mourn . VI. Of their Persecuting and Compelling men . ANd the Priests in shewing themselves to be envious men , and persecutor's , and going about to compel consciencious men ( that differ from them in Judgment ) to their Worship and Religion , by an outward Power or Law of man ; and in their Instigating Magistrates to persecute such as cannot for Conscience-sake joyn with them ; Herein they have greatly shewed themselves to be out of the way of the Gospel and true Ministry ; for the way of the Gospel and its Ministers , is , to convince Gain-sayers , and to beget men into the love of the Truth , through the meekness of Love and Wisdom , and so to convert them ; and not to use Persecution and compulsion to force them to an outward conformity against their Consciences and Faith , nor to seek to be Lords over men's Faith , 2 Cor. 1.24 . as the Priests do ; wherein they have shewed themselves to be in the way of the persecuting Jews and Papists , and not in the way of the Gospel-Ministers ; for neither Persecution , Carnal weapons , nor outward compulsion , can convince of error , nor convert men to the love of the Truth ; for they that may be thereby made conformable to an outward Profession or Worship , it is but in hypocrisie , whilst they are not convinced in their Consciences of the thing to be true which they are compelled to ; and this is but to make men Hypocrites , and no further can it bring them ; For whatsoever is not of Faith , is Sin , Rom. 14.23 . And they who can alter their Religion by outward compulsion , or for fear of suffering , will change as the Times and Governments change , as many of the hireling-Priests themselves do ; who when their Gospel will not bear them out against their opposers , then they fly to the Magistrates and Persecutors for help ; when as the Ministers of Christ , wrastled not with flesh and blood , but with Principalities and Powers , and spiritual wickedness in high places ; and their weapons were not carnal but spiritual , and mighty through God , to the pulling down of strong holds , Eph. 6.12 . and therefore we finding the Priests contrary to them , and in the way of the proud Persecutors , and of the Beast which made War against the Saints , and set up the compelled Worships , and many of them in the way of Cain , who hated his Brother for his Religion , Joh. 3.12 . 1 Jude , v. 11. we are commanded of the Lord not to uphold them , nor joyn with them . VII . Of the manner of their Preaching . ANd as for the PRIESTS Preaching what they have invented and gathered out of Authors and Books , and not from the Spirit or Revelation of Christ within ; and their following such a form in their Preaching , as dividing a Text into parts and branches , and from their own humane knowledge raising Doctrines , Reasons , Uses , Motives , Arguments , Consequences , Applications , &c. They speak in the form and words which man's wisdom doth teach , like heathen Orators , and they preach by an Hour-glasse what they have gathered and imagined . This the Priests manner and way of Preaching is contrary to the Preaching of the true Ministers ; for they ministred as they had received the gift of Christ , ( 1 Pet. 4.10 . ) and what Christ revealed in them , and sent them to preach ; and they preached not the words which man's wisdom taught , nor used the cunning sleights and devices of men , but preached in the power and demonstration of the Spirit of Christ , ( 1 Cor. 2. Eph. 4.14 . 2 Pet. 1.16 . ) which is not to be limited to men's forms and inventions , nor unto an hour-glass ; and therefore it is against our Consciences to sit under the Priests invented preaching by an hour-glasse , it being so much contrary to the Saints preaching , who were Ministers of the Spirit of the New Testament in the Revelation of the Mystery , which is CHRIST within the hope of Glory . VIII . Of the manner of their Worship . ALso it is against our Consciences to joyn with the Priests and their hearers in their formal and dead Worship at their Steeple-houses , as their formal praying in their wills , either in a form of their own inventing , or by the Book of Common-prayer , which was devised by men , and then having a Clerk to say Amen : which manner of worshipping we néver read of in the Scripture that the Saints used ; nor that the Saints in the Churches of Christ did ever sing David's Prophecies , Prayers , Complaints , Lamentations , in rime and meeter ( as Priests and People now do ) which were put into meeter by Thomas Sternhold , John Hopkins and others ; nor that ever the Churches of Christ had drunken Clerks to give them forth what Psalms they were to sing , or to give them such a tune to sing by as the Priests and their hearers now usually have , whose songs shall become howlings , Amos 8.3 . but the Saints and true Christians in the primitive times did pray with the Spirit , cryed Abba , Father , by the Spirit of Adoption , and they sung with the Spirit , with grace and understanding , and made Melody in their hearts to the Lord , as the Word that dwelt plenteously in them , led them , Rom. 7.6 . chap. 8.15 , 26. 1 Cor. 14 , 15. Eph. 5.19 . Col. 3.16 . and so the Saints served God in the newness of the Spirit , and not in the oldness of the Letter ; and such did not set a company of proud , covetous , persecuting , or prophane people of the world to sing Davids Confessions , Prayers , Complaints , and of his Fastings , Roarings , and Tremblings in meeter in a Steeple-house , or Masse-house , as the Priests and their Clerks do , who many times cause scorners and proud ones to sing , That they are not puft in mind , they have no scornful eye , Psal. 131. And such as are given to sporting and wantonness , to say , that all the night long they wash their bed with tears , ( See Psal. 6. in the Rime ) and such as feed themselves without fear , and spend the creatures upon their Lusts , and live in Fulness and Fatness , to sing , that they fast their flesh to chast , and that they weep and mone ; and that for grief and pain of heart in sackcloth use to walk , ( Psal. 69.11 , 12. ) when many of them do walk in their gaudy Attire , and in therr Silks , Ribbons and Lace : and thus they use Falshood , and shew themselves as Mockers of God , to whom they sing many more Lyes than these ; And thus their Leaders cause them to erre . Therefore this confused and false Worship at these places , called Churches and Chappels , which is neither practised with the Spirit of Christ , nor with understanding , we cannot own it , nor joyn with the World in it ; for the Lord himself hath taught us his Way and Worship , which is contrary to the Worlds . IX . Of their Sinning in their best Performances . ALso the PRIESTS have often said in their Confessions , that they sin in their best Performances , as in their Preaching , Praying and Worshipping ; and that they had need to pray , that the sins of their holy Duties , and iniquities of their Holy things may be forgiven : from which it follows , that they may pray for Forgiveness all their life-time , and be no better , in that they sin in their praying , or holy Duties , as they confess ; so that alwayes when they pray or preach , they sin , and have the sin thereof to crave forgiveness for ; And therefore it is contrary to our Faith to joyn with them in their sinful worship and performances , or to give them money for them : for the true Ministers and Saints performed their Duties to the Lord in his Spirit and Truth , and preached the Truth as of sincerity ; and as of God , so spake they in Christ , in whom is no sin , 2 Cor. 2.17 . 1 Joh. 3.5 . X. Of the Trade of their Preaching . ANd so we finding the Priests , both of the Presbyterians and Episcopal men ( so called ) so much in error , both as to the manner of their Education to their Ministry , and in covetous practices , envy , pride , and false worship , we have just cause to deny them , who are brought up to be Teachers as natural men to a Trade , and make a Trade of Preaching ( and so serve not our Lord Jesus Christ , but their own bellies ) And this appears the more against the Priests , in that when I queried the Priests and Scholars of Cambridge about their Degrees : viz. Why they have these names , Batchelers of Arts , Masters of Arts , Batchelers of Divinity , Doctors of Divinity ? &c. To this they answer thus , viz. By the same Reason that some are made Apprentices , and some Journey-men , and some Free-men , and some break , &c. This their Answer is in their Book against us , called , A Gag for the Quakers . And thus the Priests have shewed what Trades-men they are . Also , Sixty one Priests in and about the City of London , in their Seasonable Exhortation ( as they call it ) directed to their Congregations , They say in the Third Particular , That other Causes and Symptomes of God's Wrath hanging over their heads , is , The frequent disappointment from time to time of all hopes of coming to any settlement in Government in the Nation , occasioned by strange Confusions ( which they say ) is a clear Evidence , that God hath in displeasure darkened their eyes , and hid Counsel from them , &c. From which it follows , 1. That the Priests depend not upon the Lord for support and maintenance in their Trade of Preaching , but upon the Magistrates . 2. And when they think the Magistrates are at any time like to fail them , then their hearts begin to fail them , and fear surprizes them , as when they , called Protectors & their Parliaments , were overturned ; after which time the Priests made this sad Complaint . 3. The Wrath of God hanging over the Priests , and God having in displeasure darkned their eyes , and hid Counsel from them ; we may not go to follow them , nor seek Counsel at them from whom it is hid . But some will object and say , We know that the National Ministers are corrupt enough in their Practices , and that they are proud and covetous ; but we must do as they say , and not as they do : What have you against their Doctrine ? Answ. Their corrupt and evil practices give occasion enough for them to be denyed and turned away from ; as the Apostle commanded , to turn away from such as have a form of Godliness , but deny the power , 2 Tim. 3.5 . and the Lord hath called to come out from among such , and be ye separate , and touch no unclean thing , and I will receive you saith the Lord : But the Priests of the Nation do not only deny the Power of Godliness in their Practices , but also the true form of Godliness in their Doctrines and Principles , as they are in errors about the principal things that partain to Salvation , as is hereafter shewed concerning the Principles of the Priests and Professors , both of the Presbyterians , Independents , and others of the same root , who have long been in fashion and esteem in the Nation , in many of whose Principles , the Episcopal men ( who for a time have been lesse in fashion ) are one with them . The Priests and Professors Doctrines and Principles , are false about the principal things , that pertain to Life and Salvation . I. Concerning the Light. THe Priests and Professors , who affirm , That All men have not a Spiritual or saving Light of Christ in them ; and that every man hath not such a Light given him from Christ , but that the Light in every man , is a natural Light , &c. This their Principle is contrary to the Scriptures of Truth , and to Christ and his Apostles doctrine ; for as God is no respector of persons , who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not , Jam. 1.5 . So he hath given Christ a LIGHT into the World , that whosoever believeth in him , might not perish , but have eternal Life , without exception , Joh. 1.4 , 9. & chap. 3.16 . & 12.46 . Tit. 2.11 . Rom. 5.18 . And the LIFE of Christ is the LIGHT of men , who enlighteneth every man that cometh into the World , without respect of Persons ; whose LIFE , or LIGHT is not natural but spiritual ; the spirit is Life , the least measure of which Light is pure and unchangable , convincing the Creature of Sin , and leading man from Sin , where it 's owned in the Love of it : and therefore as the LIGHT in every man is spiritual and pure , and the least measure of it being the same in kind with the greatest , it is saving to them that believe in the Light , and condemning to them that wilfully reject and hate it , Joh. 3.19 . II. Their Confusion about the Light. AGain , greatly have we seen the Priests and Professors confounded about the LIGHT of CHRIST in every man ; some of them saying , that the Light the wicked have , is but a natural or created Light ; and some of the Priests say , it is a blurred Light , a dark Light , a Light of natural reason , &c. others saying that , the Light that is in every man , is both natural and Spiritual , when as the LIGHT of Christ in every man that convinceth of Sin , and reproves men for Iniquity , is Spiritual and unchangeable , being of and from CHRIST , and leads to Him , who is the same , yesterday , to day , and for ever . And notwithstanding the Priests , that have counted the Light in every man but natural , and not saving , yet some of them have affirmed that Christ giveth to every man a supernatural convincing Light , as GOD , touching the Law-Truths , but not as MEDIATOR , touching the Gospel-Truths . And thus have they confounded themselves , and blindly distinguished about the LIGHT , for the LIGHT of GOD within , which leads to the Truths of his Righteous Law within , it being supernatural , is spiritual , as the Law is , and is the LIGHT of CHRIST the MEDIATOR , in whose hand the Law is , which by his Light is manifest in man , and , where obeyed , it is a School-master to lead to Christ the Mediator , who with his Light is one with the Father , not divided , and hath all things given to him of the Father . And thus with the LIGHT we are come to see over the Priests Babylonish Confusion and Ignorance of CHRIST and his LIGHT , about which they are most confounded and do greatly erre , as is apparent . III. Of the Offer of Salvation . ANd the Priests and Professors who affirm , That Salvation is offered to All men , but not intended for all ( as free for them ) but only for a few , In this they greatly shew their Ignorance and Error ; for this would make the offer of Salvation and Grace to the greater part of people to be but in hypocrisie , as a cheat or a mock , as is the Priests pretending to offer CHRIST to all , and bidding all believe , when they do not believe GRACE to be free for all , nor that All may believe , but that God hath determined the greater part of people otherwise , when as GOD would not the death of a sinner , but rather to return and live ; and Christ would that All should come into the knowledge of the Truth and be saved . And God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world , but that the world through him might be saved , Ezek. 18.32 . & 33.11 . Joh. 3.17 . 1 Tim. 2.4 . So that the Grace which saveth is free for all , having appeared to all men without respect of persons ; but men's turning from it into Lasciviousness , and perversly rejecting the Salvation that God offers to them is the cause of their condemnation ; as this is the Condemnation , that Light is come into the World , and men love Darkness rather than Light , because their deeds are evil . IV. Of the Death of Christ. ANd the Priests and Professors affirming , That Christ dyed not for all men in the world , but only for a few , is contrary to the Apostles Doctrine , who said , That Christ dyed for All , that as many as live should not live unto themselves , but unto Him who dyed and rose again ; and that Christ gave himself a Ransom for all , to be testified in due time ; and tasted death for every man ; and is the Propitiation for our sins , and not for ours only , but for the sins of the whole World , 2 Cor. 5.14 , 15. 1 Tim. 2.6 . Heb. 2.9 . 1 Joh. 2.2 . Which was a true Testimony of the free Grace and Love of God , which is extended to all men in Christ Jesus ; So that the Priests preaching which is otherwise we may not own , nor be Disciples under it . V. Of Perfection . ALso the Priests in preaching against Perfection and Freedom from Sin in this Life , and pleading for sin to remain in all the term of Life , In this they do greatly erre , and this their preaching and pleading for sin , is both against the Scriptures , and against the Commands and Promises and Work of God ; and against both the preaching and praying of Christ and the Saints ( who were to receive whatsoever they asked in the Faith in Christ's Name , Mark 11.24 . ) as also this sinfull Doctrine of the Priests for Sin and Imperfection , is against what the Saints attained to by the Power of God before their decease ; For , 1. God commanded his People to be perfect with the Lord their God , and to love him with all their heart , soul and might , Gen. 17.1 . Deut. 18.13 . chap. 6.5 . and 10.12 . Mat. 22.37 . And , 2ly , God promised to wash and cleanse his People from all their filthiness , and that they should be all Righteous , and do no Iniquity , Ezek. 36.25 . Isa. 60. Zeph. 3.13 . And , 3ly , Christ exhorted his to be perfect , as their heavenly Father is perfect ; and prayed that they might be perfect in one , as he and his Father were one , Matth. 5.48 . Joh. 17.22 , 23. And , 4ly , The Saints preached to present men perfect in Christ , and exhorted them not to sin , but exhorted them to the perfecting of Holiness in the fear of God , 2 Cor. 7.1 . Col. 1.28 . Eph. 4.12 . And , 5ly , Christ is made manifest to destroy Sin , and to cleanse his People from all Sin , 1 Joh. 1.7 . chap. 3. And , 6ly , the Saints who passed thorow the Law , and ●horow the Warfare , till they had fought the good fight of Faith , witnessed Victory over Sin , and the body of Sin destroyed , and came to a perfect man in Christ , that they could do nothing against the Truth , but for the Truth , as the Apostle said , 1 Cor. 13.8 . Rom. 6.6 . Col. 2.11 . 2 Tim. 4.7 . And here the Saints prayers and desires to God came to be fulfilled , who prayed that his Kingdom might come , and his Will might be done in Earth as it is in Heaven , where no sin is . So that the Priests do greatly erre , and strengthen many in their sins , by preaching against Perfection , which Perfection is Christ's work ; and contending and pleading for Sin , which is the Devil's work , which they are in ; and therefore we cannot own them as our Teachers . VI. Of the Priests Exhorting to endeavour after it . ALso the Priests exhorting men to endeavour after Perfection , and to labour to be clean , when they do not believe that such a state is attainable , Their so exhorting men is but in unbelief and hypocrisie , as is their praying to God to make them clean and righteous ; and that his Will may be done in Earth as it is in Heaven , when they do not believe that they may be clean from sin in this Life , nor that the Will of God may be done in Earth as it is in Heaven . This their praying is in unbelief , and so they ask and receive not , Jam. 4.3 . So that their preaching and praying which is not in the Faith , is neither effectual nor available with the Lord ; For whatsoever is not of Faith is Sin. VII . Of Election and Reprobation . ANd the Priests and Professors , who affirm a particular Election and Reprobation of particular persons from eternity , and yet pretend to offer Christ to all , and bid all believe ; as also they take money of all in general that hear them , for their preaching to them , Herein do they greatly erre , and shew their preaching , and pretended offering Christ to the greater part , to be but in hypocrisie and deceit : For , how should they receive Christ , or believe in him , if God hath determined them from eternity to be condemned or reprobated ? Herein the Priests would make God a respecter of persons , and then they may be silent from their preaching to them to believe , if all may not believe ; and people need not spend their money to the Priests for their deceitful preaching to them : for , what God hath determined shall come to passe , without their Trade of Preaching for Money . But this I say , that the Saints were elected of God thorow the sanctification of the Spirit , and belief of the Truth , unto obedience , 2 Thess. 2.13 . 1 Pet. 1.2 . and their Election stood in the Seed , which obtained the Promise , which was before the World was : And the cause of mens being reprobated , is , their Disobedience and Rebellion in the Evil seed , against that which may be known of God , which is manifest in them : For even as they liked not to retain God in their knowledge , God gave them over to a Reprobate mind , Rom. 1. And many that may be saved , and may enter into Rest , may come short thorow unbelief and the deceitfulness of sin . And some that have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of God , if they shall return thither again , and be entangled therein , their latter end is worse than the beginning . See Isa. 1.16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. Ezek. 18.20 , to the end of the Chapter . Heb. 4. & chap. 6.5 , 6. & 10.26 . 2 Pet. 2.1 , 20 , 21 , 22. So that the cause of man's destruction doth not lie on God's part , nor is the fault his , but mens Iniquity and Rebellion against the Grace of God given them , and wilfully submitting themselves to the Wicked One , who is the Author of all Iniquity . VIII . Of Original Sin. ANd whereas the Priests accuse all men , except Christ ( both the Wicked and the Righteous , and the Infants who never actually committed sin ) to be guilty of Original Sin , more or lesse , from the first Parents , &c. To this I say , that it was the Devil that was the Author and Original of all Sin , and cause of men's being guilty of Sin , when they transgress the Righteous Law of God within , and are in the state of Adam in the transgression , and in that unrighteous nature by which all in that state are the Children of Wrath ; but it was not barely the first Parents eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge , and so their sinning alone that made men guilty , or by nature the children of wrath [ Though by one man ( who is the Man of Sin ) Sin entered into the world , and Death by Sin ] but men being naturally subject to the power of Darkness in themselves , and , their coming under the nature , which brings death and the guilt , and causeth the curse upon them ; For death hath passed upon all men , for that all have sinned , Rom. 5.12 . and hath reigned from Adam to Moses , over them that have not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression : But the Righteous , who are begotten again into the Divine Nature of the second Adam , and come to be of the Seed which the Blessing is to , which is of Abraham ; such are brought to see the Devil and his works destroyed , and are come out of the first Adam's state and nature , which was in the transgression , Gal. 3.9 . 2 Pet. 1.4 . 1 Jo. 3. But whereas some of the Priests have affirmed , That Infants in the Mother's womb , and such as have not actually committed sin , are guilty of Original Sin from Adam by Imputation , which , they say , is enough to condemn them . To this I answer . That Sin is not imputed , when there is no Law , Rom. 5. and the Law was added because of transgression : What then ? have Infants in the Mother's womb the Law ? or , are they then capable of the Law that was added because of transgression ? for it is the righteous Law , or Light of God within every man , that causeth Sin to be imputed where that Law is transgressed : So that of this Law the Priests have ( in this , as in many other things ) shewed themselves to be exceeding ignorant : And though the Curse follow the Seed of the Evil-doer , and such as are estranged from the womb , who are in that rebellious nature which causeth the Wrath to come upon them ; Yet some were sanctified in the womb , and some filled with the Holy Ghost ( and so sanctified ) from the womb , Jer. 1.5 . Luke 1.15 . and some were perfect from the day they were created , until the Iniquity was found in them , Ezek. 28.15 . And this Proverb shall not be used , That the Fathers have eaten soure Grapes , and the Childrens teeth are set on edge ; but every man shall dye for his own Iniquity ; every one that eateth the soure grapes his teeth shall be set on edge , Jer. 31.29 . The soul that sinneth , it shall die , Ezek. 18.4 . So that we have greatly seen the Priests Ignorance about Original Sin , and the Imputation of it , and their accusing the Righteous as being guilty of it . And now with the Light of the Lord ( who it is that fashioneth the Child in the womb ) are we come to see the two Seeds , and the two Births ; the one of which is shapen in Iniquity , and conceived in Sin , and this the Judgment and Hatred of God follows , and takes hold upon ; but the other hath the Lord covered in the womb , and written all its Members in his Book when they were not fashioned , Psal. 139. And where this Birth is brought forth , the Lord maketh him to hope when he is upon-his Mothers breasts , for he is cast upon the Lord from the womb , Psa. 22.9 , 10. Now all that come to the Light of the Lord , and to witness the Key of David ( who saw these two Seeds in him before he came to the Victory , or had the Evil seed cast out ) such must come to see and be sensible of these two in them , and when each acts or speaks in them before they come to see the Warfare accomplished , or the Victory obtained in the Righteous Seed over the contrary : And such as can truly discern these , and the nature of each Seed , they can read what Jacob and Esau is in the Mystery ; the one of which God loves , and the other he hates ; and here that is seen wherein men are Children of Wrath , and that wherein they become Children of God , and inherit his Blessing . IX . Of the Serpent , and the forbidden Fruit. ALso the Priests Ignorance and gross darkness hath appeared , who have affirmed , That the forbidden Fruit , which the Serpent tempted Eve to eat of , was an Apple : From which Dream of theirs the picture of a Snake , and an Apple in its mouth in a Tree , with the image of a Man and a Woman , are set up at the beginning of Bibles , and in many other places ; from which some have imagined that the Serpent which beguiled Eve was a visible Creature or Beast of the field , which for that time had power to speak , and to present an Apple to deceive Eve withal ; when as God said to Man and Woman before the Fall , Behold , I have given you every Herb , bearing seed , which is upon the face of all the Earth ; and every Tree , in the which is the fruit of a Tree yeelding seed , to you it shall be for meat , Gen. 1.29 . and the fruit of such a Tree that beareth seed , is an Apple ; So that could not be the Forbidden Fruit. And the Serpent was that which tempted Man from the simplicity of the Truth , and through subtilty led him out from the Innocency and Life ( wherein God had placed him ) to feed upon the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge , which was desirable to the Carnal or Woman's part , that was not content with the pure , innocent and simple Being wherein God at first placed Man over the rest of the Creation , and wherein he was more peculiar and near to the Lord than the other Creatures , and might have fed upon the Tree of Life , which was above the Serpent and his subtilty , and beyond that knowledge of good and evil which that got into which went out from the Life of Truth and Innocency , and which let in the Temptation and Subtilty that betrayed the Simplicity in Man ; and brought in the Enmity , Disobedience and Misery , which caused the Curse to come upon him : and when the Enmity and Disobedience was entered into the Devil ( who before was called the Serpent , who abode not in the Truth , and whom Cod for his Rebellion cursed , and said , Upon thy Belly shalt thou go , and Dust shalt thou eat ) he got power over the Creature , and ruleth in the Children of Disobedience . And of this Serpent who beguiled Eve , the Apostle was jealous , left that the Corinths should be deceived by him , and their minds corrupted and led away through his subtilty , from the simplicity of the Gospel which was in Christ , 2 Cor. 11.2 , 3. Now where the Seed of the Woman , which is CHRIST , is received , he bruiseth the Serpents head , who hath led Man out from the Life and Simplicity of Truth ; and so CHRIST the Promised Seed being received and made manifest in Man , he frees Man from the Devil and his Power , and redeems him out of the disobedient nature , and so from the Wrath and Curse , and brings him to have dominion over the Serpent and his enmity , and to see through all his Subtilty and Temptations , and to know Victory over them , and to inherit a Kingdom , into which no unclean thing can come , and which none can enter into but such who follow Christ Jesus the true Light ( in whom the wicked one hath nothing ) thorow the work of Regeneration and Renewing , till the New-Birth be born in them , and the New-Creature in Christ be brought forth ; where the Man and the Woman ( who is not without one another in the Lord ) are restored in the Seed : and who come to witness this , must deny themselves , and forsake their own corrupt knowledge , thoughts , and imaginations , which they and the Priests have run into about these things , which have been hid and sealed from them , as in Parables , as they ●re from all such as are disobedient to the Light of Christ in them , which is the true Key , which opens where no man can shut , and shutteth where no man can open . X. Of Justification , and of Sanctification . ANd those Teachers and Professors who affirm , That Justification is before Sanctification , and that men are justified by the Imputation of Christs Righteousness when they are sinners ; and say , that Righteousness which justifies is not within them , but the Righteousness which sanctifies is within : And so they tell of two Righteousnesses , one that justifies , and another that sanctifies . Herein they shew their Error , and Blindness , and their Doctrine to be contrary to the Doctrine of the Apostles , who preached , that it was not the hearers of the Law that were Just before God , but the doers that should be justified , Rom. 2.13 . So that here men were not justified , while sinners and unsanctified , but when sanctified and obedient to the righteous Law of God written in their hearts ; and the Righteousness of the Law did Christ fulfil in them , that walked not after the flesh , but after the Spirit ; which some Priests falsly say is meant , that the Righteousness of the Law was fulfilled in Christ , and not in Believers persons , when it 's expresly said , — that the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us , Rom. 8.4 . As also , the Apostle desired to be found in Christ , not having his own righteousness , but that which was through the Faith of Christ , the Righteousness of God by Faith ; by which he knew Christ and the power of his Resurrection , and fellowship of his Sufferings , and was made conformable unto his Death , Phil. 3.9 , 10. So here he witnessed Sanctification and Justification through one and the same Righteousness , which was imputed to him in the Faith of Christ , which was in him ; and said he , — but ye are washed , but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus , and by the Spirit of our God , 1 Cor. 6.11 . So here they were not justified when sinners , but when washed and sanctified by the Spirit of God from sin , by which Spirit they were justified , and this was within : and so God does not justifie men in their ungodliness , but from it ; and no where doth the Apostle tell of two Righteousnesses , one without to justifie , and another within to sanctifie , as many of the Priests and Professors do . XI . Of the Believer's Faith , and its Work. ANd the Priests and Professors , who affirm , That the work of Sanctification , and the Believers Faith is Imperfect in this life ; and that the Believers have Sin mixed with their Grace . In this they do greatly erre ; for the Believer's Faith and Grace is the gift of God [ from whom every good and perfect gift cometh ] which saveth them , and purifieth them from sin ; and Faith purifieth their hearts , and overcometh the world , Act. 15.9 . 1 Joh. 5.4 . and so this Grace and Faith is pure , ( or else how could it purifie ? ) and the work of it is perfect , and its fruits pure . And the Saints witnessed the Blood of Christ ( through Faith ) to cleanse them from all sin , and a perfecting Holiness in the fear of God , till they were compleat in Christ , and sanctified throughout , 2 Cor. 7.1 . Col. 2.10 . 1 Thess. 5.23 . So that Sanctification came to be perfected in them , as the Work of God is perfect . So that the Priests and Professors , which profess Faith that is mixed with Sin , and so imperfect , and which is a Faith without Works , and so a dead Faith , that leaves them still in their sins , we deny it ; for the Faith of God's Elect , which is of Christ , is pure in the least measure of it ; and from that Faith are Righteous Works and Fruits brought forth of its own nature and kind ; for that Faith which doth not purifie , and is a Faith without Works , is but a false and dead Faith , ( Jam. 2.20 . ) which the sinful Priests and Professors are in . XII . Of the Priests meanings upon the Scripture . ALso the Priests do greatly shew their Error and Confusion in giving their sundry invented Meanings to the Scripture , contrary to what the words of Scripture do import , ( in many places , as they say ; ) and in saying they must reconcile the Scriptures to themselves by their Meanings , wherein they intimately accuse the Scriptures to disagree , and to be false and imperfect in many things . And many of the Priests contradict one another in their meanings upon Scripture ; when as the Scriptures of Truth were given forth from the Spirit of Truth in the Saints , and cannot be broken , Joh. 10.35 . 2 Tim. 3.16 . which Spirit is that which must open the Scriptures , and give men the true understanding of them , ( Joh. 16.13 . ) and not the Priests confused and invented meanings and senses , which proceed from the spirit of Error in them ; who have denyed that they have the Infallible Spirit , or Inspiration in them from Heaven , from which the Scripture was given ; when as it is the Inspiration of the Almighty that giveth understanding , Job 32.8 . So that they who have not that , have not the understanding of the Scriptures ; and such we cannot own to be our Teachers , who being out of that Spirit which the holy men of God were in , it 's evident they know nothing but what they know naturally ; and in these things they corrupt themselves , Jude , v. 10. XIII . Of the Gospel . ALso the Priests have shewed their Error and Ignorance about the Gospel , in calling the four Books of Matthew , Mark , Luke and John , the Gospel ; when as the Gospel is Everlasting , being the Power of God unto Salvation to every one that believeth , Rom. 1.16 . And the Gospel was preached to Abraham , before the four Evangelists were , Gal. 3.8 . And there is not to be another Gospel preached than that which is the Power of God , which the Apostles preached ; for he that preacheth another is to be accursed , Gal. 1.8 . XIV . Of the Foundation and only Rule . ANd the Priests , in affirming the Scriptures to be the Foundation and only Rule of Faith and Life , and the Word , &c. They affirm contrary to the Scriptures themselves , and contrary to the Apostles Doctrine , who said , That another Foundation can no man lay , than that which is laid , which is Christ ( who is the Foundation of Faith ) 1 Cor. 3.11 . though the Priests have preached another ; and though one while they profess the Scriptures to be their Rule , yet another while they set their meanings above them , as to reconcile them , and act contrary to them ; and thus shew their Confusion : but it is the Spirit of Truth that leads into all Truth . And so the Saints had the Rule of Faith and Life before the Scriptures were written , as had Abel , Enoch , Abraham , Moses , &c. And the Gentiles who had the Law written in their hearts , who had not the letter of it without , had a true Rule of Life in them , as many have who cannot read the Scriptures ; and whereunto the Saints had attained in the Spirit and Life of Christ , they were to walk by the same Rule , Rom. 2.15 . Phil. 3.16 . 2 Cor. 10.13 , 14 , 15. And the Word was in the beginning , and was in the hearts of the holy men of God before they spake forth the Words , or writ the Scriptures , wherein are the words that God spake , which are a true Declaration of those things that were surely believed amongst the Saints : but the Word of God liveth for ever , and was before the words or writings of Scripture without were , Psal. 119.11 . Joh. 1.1 . Luke 1.1 . So that the Priests who have so much shewed their Ignorance about the Gospel , the Foundation , the Word , the only Rule , and yet say , they are Ministers of the Gospel , and of the Word , we have sufficient cause never to own them as our Teachers . XV. Of Swearing . ANd the Priests in pleading for Swearing , and teaching men that it is lawful for them to swear , chiefly bringing Heb. 6.16 . for it ; and some of them telling people that Swearing is a part of the Worship of God. The Priests herein have shewed themselves to transgress Christs Doctrine , and teach others so to do , and so they have not God , 2 Joh. ver . 9. for Christ who is the end of the Law for Righteousness , and the end of the Shadows under it , he said to his Disciples , It hath been said by them of old time , Thou shalt not forswear thy self , but shalt perform unto the Lord thine Oaths ( which Oaths were under the Law , and in their time were commanded of God , and were not vain nor needless Oaths , nor by the Creatures . ) But in opposition to these Oaths , as ending them , Christ said , But I say unto you , Swear not at all , neither by Heaven , nor by Earth , &c. Mat. 5.33 , 34. Now he that sweareth by Heaven , sweareth by the Throne of God , and by him that sitteth thereon , Matth. 23.22 . So that , from Christ's Command , we are now to swear by neither : And the Apostle James ( as confirming to the same Testimony ) said , Above all things , my Brethren , swear not , neither by Heaven , nor by Earth , nor by any other Oath ; but let your yea be yea , and your nay , nay , left you fall into condemnation , Jam. 5.12 . And as to that of Heb. 6.16 . where it 's said , For men verily Swear by the Greater , and an Oath for confirmation , is to them an End of all Strife ; which the the Priests object for Swearing . In this they are very dark ; for the Apostle doth but mention this , as a Practice which had relation to the Jewes , who were under the Law , and such as were in the Strife , but he gives no Command for Swearing , neither doth he vindicate it , any more than he doth receiving of Tythes , in his saying , here men that die receive Tythes , Heb. 7.8 . which was but a mentioning that as a practice which the Jews upheld , as was the other of Swearing ; for he witnessed the Commandment disanulled , by which Tythes were received , and the Priesthood changed by which they were upheld , Heb. 7.12 , 18. So that the bare relation of a Practice is no command for it , nor vindication of it . And the Oath which God sware to Abraham , wherein he makes known the Immutability of his Counsel to the Heirs of Promise , is greater than man's swearing to end strife : for where that Oath of God is received and fulfilled , the Blessing to the Seed is manifested , and the Strife is ended , and the ground of it removed ; and of this Oath and Covenant , mens swearing to end strife without , was but a figure , type , or shadow . And as to the Priests saying , that Swearing is a part of the Worship of God : From this then it follows , that it 's an easie thing for Drunkards and Prophane Persons to be in the Worship of God , if Swearing be a part of it ; for what case is it such cannot swear in , either by the Lord , or otherwise ? and then they might as well say it's part of the Worship of God to transgress Christ's Doctrine , as say Swearing is part of his Worship ; ( Surely this is a bad Worship which the Priests preach and set up ) for Christ commanded not to swear at all , and he is the End of all Strife , about which the Swearing was , and the End of the Law , and of the Oaths under it for Righteousness ; and the Word of that Oath by which he was made a Priest , which was since the Law , is the substance and end of all Oaths , Shadows and Ceremonies that were under the Law : For the Jews under the Law confirmed their Testimony to end strife and controversie , by Swearing , and bound themselves by an Oath ( or sometimes by Vows and Curses ) to walk in the Law of the Lord , Nehem. 10.29 . But the Christians in the Gospel and New-Covenant are bound in Conscience by the Power and Law of Christ in them ( which is a greater Bond than Swearing ) to do to all men as they would be done by , and to perform Equity and Righteousness ( in that Love which is the fulfilling of the Law ) in the sight of God and man , without swearing Oaths , which were but a Figure or Shadow of this Inward Bond or Covenant , confirmed by the Oath of God to the Seed of Abraham , which the true Christians are of , who witness the substance and end of all Oaths without , and of the Iniquity and Strife which occasioned the Oaths . XVI . Of Revelation and Inspiration from Heaven . ANd the Priests affirm , That Revelation and Inspiration from Heaven is ceased , and deny that any now may attain to Immediate Teaching , or hearing of God's Voice from Heaven . Herein have they taught people Errors and Falshoods , and shewed that they never knew God , nor are any of his Ministers : For no man knoweth the Father but the Son , and he to whom the Son will reveal him , Matth. 11.27 . And the Righteousness of God was revealed from Faith to Faith in the Gospel , which is the Power of God , which Paul preached , Rom. 1.16 , 17. So they in saying , That Revelation and Inspiration is ceased , have preached another Gospel than that which Paul preached , and therefore are to be accounted accursed , Gal. 1.8 . And all the Children of God are taught of Him , and so hear his Voice , Isa. 54.13 . Jer. 31.34 . Heb. 8.11 . So that the Priests who have neither heard the Voice of God , nor received his Inspiration , nor the Revelation of his Son , and yet say they are his Messengers , and Christ's Ambassadors , they have shewed their deceit and hypocrisie , and themselves to be such as the Unbelievers , Joh. 5.37 . who had neither heard the Voice of God at any time , nor seen his Shape : And they that have not the Spirit of Christ , are none of his . So they are none of Christ's Ambassadors , but Antichrists , and therefore we deny them . XVII . Of Sprinkling Infants . ANd whereas the Priests do sprinkle Infants ( and some of them have dipped them , and used the sign of the Crosse in doing it ) and call that the Baptism into the Visible Church , &c. Herein have they shewed themselves ignorant of the true Baptism , and have set up a false and Popish Baptism , which they have neither Command , Precept , nor Example for in the Scriptures of Truth , either from Christ , or any of his Ministers : For the Baptism of Water , which John ( who was a Prophet and a Fore-runner of Christ ) had a Command from Heaven to administer , was to them that confessed their Sins ; and this was to cease , as being a Figure of the inward Washing and one Baptism of the Spirit , 1 Cor. 12.13 . Eph. 4.1 . 1 Pet. 3.21 . for the Saints were all baptized by one Spirit , into one Body , which was the Church , and did not call sprinkling ( or baptizing ) Infants , the Baptism into the Church , as the Priests do ; Neither do we read in Scripture of Godfathers and Godmothers among the true Christians , to be the Infants Sureties , and to promise that they should forsake the Devil and all his Works . Thus we see the Error of the Priests , and how their Worship is in vain , who teach for Doctrines the Traditions of men , Matth. 15. And how thereby many that have had the name of Christians , have been captivated and led in great ignorance , and neither they nor their Teachers have forsaken the Devil , or all his works , notwithstanding their pretended promising to do it , when they are in Sin , which is the Devil's work ; and contend for it , telling men , that none can be clean or free from sin on this side the Grave : and thus they shew their Confusion and Error . XVIII . Of Bread and Wine , which they call the Lords Supper . ANd neither do we ever read in Scripture , That Christ's Ministers did give the people of the world Bread and Wine in a Steeple-house at certain times of the year , and call it a Sacrament , the Communion , and the Lord's Supper , and preach it up so to continue in the Church , as the Priest do . Herein do the Priests make an Idol of outward Bread and Wine , and keep people in shadows instead of bringing them to the substance : For , 1. they have no proof in the Scripture to call Bread and Wine a Sacrament , but from the Papists . 2. The true Communion stands not in outward Bread and Wine , but in the Body and Blood of Christ , which is the substance and end of outward Figures and Shadows . 3. The Bread and Wine which the Priests give People in Steeple-houses at Easter , and Appointed times ( like the Papists ) cannot be the Lord's Supper ; for Drunkards , Covetous , Proud and prophane Persons , who are in their sins ( and so eating at the Table of Devils ) can receive their pretended Sacrament of Bread and Wine , who cannot eat at the Table of the Lord , 1 Cor. 10.21 . nor come to his Supper , as to sup with him , and he with them , as they do who open to him when he knocks , and receive him , Revel . 3.20 . 4ly . Neither is it proper to call a little Bread and VVine ( which people receive on the day-time ) a Supper , it being more like a Dinner ; for in this the Priests are both out of the Form of Christ , and the Saints Practice , and out of the Power ; for it was in the Night in which Christ was betrayed that he was at Supper with his Disciples , ( not with the VVorld ) and gave Them ( not the VVorld ) the Bread and the Cup , to shew forth his Death till he come : And at his Supper he ate the Passeover with them , according to the Law , Matth. 26. Luke 22. which the Priests do not so much as truly imitate : but the Passeover , and these outward things were but Figures , and to cease as other Figures under the Law were , which Christ passed through in the dayes of his flesh , and fulfilled them , and blotted out the hand-writing of Ordinances , and nailed it to his Crosse. So that after Christ had suffered and fulfilled the Figures [ that related to that state under the Law ] and did manifest his Coming , and the Power of his Resurrection in the Saints , these Shadows and Figures were not of force by a Law , though some of the Churches did use them for a time by permission ; But the Apostles laboured to bring them from off these Shadows and outward things , to the knowledge of the Mystery of Life within ; for , said the Apostle , If ye be dead with Christ from the Rudiments of the World , why as though living in the World are ye subject to Ordinances , &c. Touch not , tast not , handle not , which are all to perish with the using , after the Commandments and Doctrines of men , Col. 2. Eph. 2.15 . So Christ through suffering made way for a further dispensation of the Mystery of Life , than was in the Shadows or Figures ; and they who were come into this Mystery , were come to witness , that the Bread which they brake , was the Communion of the Body of Christ ; and the Cup which they drank was the Communion of the Blood of Christ , 1 Cor. 10.16 . and Christ the living Bread is in the Saints , 2 Cor. 13.5 . and we are come to sup with him , and he with us , and so are come to his Table and his Supper , which Drunkards , Covetous Worldlings and Earth-worms [ who can receive the Priests Sacrament so called ] cannot eat nor drink at ; and by the knowledge of the Mystery , which is CHRIST WITHIN , are we come to see beyond the Shadows and Figures , and beyond the Traditions and Inventions of men , which the world are doting about ; And we may not turn back again , from the Substance into the Shadows , nor into the Traditions of men , like the world , nor yet eat with them in their Idol-Temples , ( or Popish Mass-houses ) contrary to the Apostle's Doctrine , 1 Cor. 8.10 . 2 Cor. 6.17 . XIX . Of the Church . ANd the Priests in calling a Steeple-house ( or Popish-Masse-house ) a Church , do erre contrary to the Scriptures ; for the Church is the Body of Christ , and the Church is in God , built up of living stones , Eph. 1.22 , 23. 1 Thess. 1.1 . but so are not the Popish Masse-houses , which the Priests do falsly call Churches . XX. Of the Seal of the Covenant . AS also , they do erre in counting that they are the Church of Christ , from their Infant Baptism ( which is Popish ) as imagining themselves thereby to be baptized into the Church , and calling that the Seal of the Covenant ; when as the Saints were baptized by one Spirit into one Body , which was the Church , and they were sealed with the Spirit of Promise unto the day of Redemption , Eph. 4.30 . 1 Cor. 12.13 . XXI . Of Bishops and Presbyters . ANd all that go under the names of Bishops , and Presbyters , and Elders , who are out of the Spirit that the holy men of God were in , who gave forth the Scriptures , and are ordained or instituted and set up by the wills of men , who are neither truly called , ordained , nor qualified according to God's Will ; They have gotten the names , but are out of the true nature , which the Saints and Elders in the true Church were in : for covetous , proud , lordly men and Persecutors , who would lord it over God's Heritage , and over men's Consciences and Faith , such are out of the life and state of the true Ministers , and so are of Antichrist ; for the true Elders and Bishops were such as were endued with the Power and Gift of God , which brought them into the blameless Life , and to shew forth a good Example to others , and so made them apt to teach others ; And these Bishops were not given to Wine , nor strikers , nor greedy of filthy Lucre , nor Brawlers , nor Covetous , nor lifted up with Pride , but patient , 2 Tim. 3. And the Apostle Peter , who was a true Elder , and a Witness of the Sufferings of Christ , and a partaker of the Glory that was to be revealed , he exhorted the Elders to feed the Flock of God , taking the oversight thereof , not by constraint , but willingly ; not for filthy lucre , but of a ready mind , neither as Lords over God's Heritage , but being Ensamples to the Flock ; and such were to receive a Crown of Glory that fadeth not away , 1 Pet. 5. and such were instrumental in the hand of God to gain and convert others to the Truth : but where we find Ministers of a contrary spirit , and in contrary practices , though they go under the same names that the other had , we cannot own them : And therefore these lordly , proud , envious , covetous and persecuting Ministers are to be denyed , whether they go under the names of Bishops , Elders , Pastors or Teachers ; for it is not the names that make men true Ministers , but it is the gift of God , which brings into the true nature and life of Righteousness : yet we read not in Scripture of Arch-Bishops and Lord Bishops , that were set up in the true Church , nor of Deans , Arch-Deacons , Prebends , Chapters , Curates , &c. nor that the Ministers of Christ , as Peter , Paul , Timothy , Titus , or any others of them did wear Surplices in their Worship ; nor that they kept a company of Singing-Boys or Queristers in the true Church , to sing in Surplices in a Popish House , or to repeat an invented form one after another ; but these things were invented and set up in the night of Apostacy , when men were degenerated from the Life and Worship of the true Christians , and fallen into Antichristianism and Popery . XXII . Of the Priests Ordination . ANd when the Priests could not prove their Education and fitting to their Ministry at Schools and Colledges by natural Learning to be according to the Scriptures and practices of the true Ministers , then have they fled to that of 1 Tim. 4.14 . [ to prove their Ordination by the laying on of hands to be right ] where Paul said to Timothy , Neglect not the Gift that is in thee , which was given thee by Prophecy , with the laying on of the Hands of the Presbytery ( or Company of Eldership ) and this have the Presbyterian Priests brought to prove themselves true Ministers ; and yet these Priests have told us , That immediate Teaching , Revelation and Prophesying is ceased ; and so they have overthrown themselves , and shewed themselves to be neither truly called nor ordained ; neither are they fit to ordain others ; and the Scriptures they bring for themselves are against them : for Timothy and the Elders in the true Church were truly qualified and made Ministers by the Gift of God , and the Revelation of Christ in them ; which Gift was given them by Prophecy , and that they were not to neglect ; so they did not say , that Prophesying , Revelation , and immediate Inspiration were ceased , as the Priests do ; but the true Elders , in the laying on of Hands ( which they did in the Power of God , and not in man's will ) approved of such for the Ministry , whom they knew were fitted for the work of it by the Gift of God in them . And Peter and John were Elders in the true Church , 1 Pet. 5.2 . 2 Joh. 1. 3 Joh. 1. but they were not brought up at Schools and Colledges to their Ministry ; neither did they say , that Revelation and Prophecying was ceased , like the Priests , but were Fishermen , who through following Christ and his Revelation of Life and Power , came to be fishers of men , and true Ministers ; so that such as are out of their Doctrine , Life and Spirit , as the hireling Priests are , who are set up and ordained by the wills of men as corrupt as themselves , are neither fit to ordain others , nor to minister to others . And such as do hate and persecute men for their Consciences , would compel and force all to be of their Church , and to conform to their Worship , though it be never so much contrary to their Consciences ; and though they have counted them Hereticks , Deceivers , Seducers , and what not ? yet if they could force them outwardly to conform to their Worship , they should be received , and help to make up their Church ; and what a confused Church of Hypocrites that would be , may be easily judged : but , I say , their lording it over men's Consciences , and compelling them to their Worships , and persecuting men for their Religion , is never the way to convince them , nor to gain them to God , what outward formality soever they may force them to by an outward Power ; for , it is the gentle , meek and tender Spirit of the Lamb , that must appear in Ministers , and convince and regain People to God , and into the love of his Truth , or else they are not fit Instruments for God's work . XXIII . Of the Common-prayer-Book . ANd we do not read in the Scripture of a Common-prayer-Book that the Saints ever had to direct them how to pray , and to sing ; for they prayed with the Spirit , and sung with the Spirit ; but the Common-prayer-Book was devised by men since the Apostles dayes , much of which is agreeable to the Masse-Book , from whence it had its derivation , though some of the Ceremonies of the Masse are left out ; yet after the Preface , near the beginning of the Common-prayer ( touching those Ceremonies that were reserved in their Church ) it is said , that those Ceremonies have been devised by men , &c. Now we being led by the Spirit of God , and therein brought to worship him , we must not follow man's devices and invented Ceremonies , for they are not truly called the Divine Service ; but the Service which is in the Spirit of God is divine , and not the following of men's Devices . And is it not evident , that they that set up the Common-prayer-Book were Popish , from their saying ( in their Commination against sinners ) That in the Primitive Church there was a Godly Discipline , that at the beginning of Lent such persons as were notorious sinners , were put to open Penance , and punished in this world , that their souls might be saved , &c. Was not that Discipline Popery , which there they called Godly ? and which Discipline they much wished might be restored again , instead whereof they pronounced several Curses . XXIV . Of the Priests gross Ignorance about their Publick Baptism . ANd what Ignorance is it for Teachers ( at their publick Baptism ) to say , That God by the Baptism of his beloved Son did sanctifie the flood Jordan , and all other Waters , to the mystical washing away of Sin ? when as many are sprinkled or dipped when Infants , and washed with outward water , who are yet unwashed from their sins ; as Drunkards , Swearers , Lyars , covetous and prophane Persons . And yet to say that Infants , by their Sureties , must faithfully promise obediently to keep God's Commandments , and that they will forsake the Devil and all his works , the vain pomp and glory of the world , with all the covetous desires of the same , the carnal desires of the flesh ; and that they will not follow nor be led by them ; and then for them , called Godfathers , to answer , as in the Infants name , and say , I forsake them all , [ viz. the Devil and all his works ] when as the Infants are not capable of any such Promises , neither do they that promise so for them , fulfill what they promise themselves . And after they say , that the Children have promised to forsake the Devil and all his works , &c. those called Godfathers and Godmothers , must see that the Infants be taught ( as soon as they can learn ) what a solemn Vow , Promise and Profession they have made , [ what Confusion and Darkness is this ? ] And yet notwithstanding all this promising to forsake the Devil and all his works , and after that , by this Baptism ( so called ) they say they are regenerate and grafted into the Body of Christ , and say they are made the Children of God , and Inheritors of the Kingdom of Heaven ; ( notwithstanding all this ) both Priests and People confess that they have offended against the holy Laws , and followed the desires of their own hearts , and that there is no health in them , and cry ( as they do often ) Lord have mercy upon us , miserable offenders . And thus they confound themselves , and break their Promises of forsaking the Devil and all his works , and of obediently keeping God's Commandments , when as they daily break them , and so are in the Devil's work , who is the Author of all unrighteousness ; and such Teachers , as in whom there is no health , are none of Christ's Ministers , neither can we own such for our Teachers : for who are Ministers of Christ , have his Spirit dwelling in them , and so have health in them . And how can such absolve men from all their sins , ( as they say in their Visitation of the Sick ) who themselves are miserable Sinners , and have no health in them ? XXV . Of the true Church and its Head. MUch more of the Priests Ignorance , Errors and Superstitions , both in their Doctrines and Practices might be shewed , which I omit mentioning for the present , here being so many Reasons as may satisfie the Reasonable , why we cannot joyn with them in their Worships at their Steeple-houses , nor own them in their Ministry : for the Lord hath united us by his mighty Power , and incorporated us into the true Body , which is the Church of CHRIST , whom he hath espoused and married unto himself , to be as a chast wife unto the husband ; and Christ is the Head and Law-giver to his Church ; and therefore we cannot joyn with the false Church , that is made up of such members as profess they be married to Christ , and yet they know neither the true Baptism into the true Church , nor the true Communion of the Body , which is the Church ; nor have they ever heard his Voice , as to be married to him ; neither were they ever cloathed upon with the Wedding Garment , to wit , Christ's Righteousness , but are in their own Righteousness , and the Traditions and Devices of men , which are but as filthy Rags , which they have set up without , instead of the Life and Mystery of Godliness within ; and such are in Babylon , drinking of the Whores Cup , and following the Beast , which hath long born up the Whore , which hath persecuted ( and drunk the Blood of ) the Saints , and which is come in Remembrance before the LORD , who is confounding Babylon : So who are espoused as a chast Virgin to Christ , and married to Him , and come to know Him their Head and Law-giver , must not commit Adultery with the Whore , nor drink of her Cup anymore , nor joyn with the false Church ; for Christ is the Head of his Church , even as the husband is the head of the wife ; and the wife is bound by the Law to her husband so long as he liveth ; so that if while her husband liveth she be married to another man , she shall be called an Adulteress , Rom. 7. Ephes. 5.23 . So that Christ being the Head of his Church , as the husband is the head of the wife , his Church is not to set up another Head than Christ over it ; and so neither to own the Pope , as Supream Head of the Church , nor any man else , but CHRIST , according to the Scriptures of Truth . So blessed are they who own the LIGHT of CHRIST in their hearts , that they may follow Him into the City of our God , where the Lord God and the Lamb may be their Light and Teacher , that they may no more be carried away captive in Mystery Babylon , the false Church and her whorish practices ; neither be any more deceived by her Sorceries , nor drink any longer of her Cup. Written in Norwich Castle about the latter end of the second Month , 1661. G. W. THE END . 
A65887	----	A serious search into Jeremy Ives's questions to the Quakers who are herein cleared from his scornful abuses : and Jer. Ives himself manifest to be no Christian from his own observations, reviling, ostentation, &c. / by a witness for Christianity in faith and life, George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1674 Approx. 95 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 37 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65887 Wing W1958 ESTC R5315 12704156 ocm 12704156 66003 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65887) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 66003) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 371:13) A serious search into Jeremy Ives's questions to the Quakers who are herein cleared from his scornful abuses : and Jer. Ives himself manifest to be no Christian from his own observations, reviling, ostentation, &c. / by a witness for Christianity in faith and life, George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 73 p. s.n.], [London : 1674. Place of publication from Wing. Errata: p. 73. Reproduction of original in British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674. -- Quakers no Christians. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-05 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2005-05 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Serious SEARCH INTO Jeremy Ives ' s Questions TO THE QUAKERS : Who are herein cleared from his Scornful Abuses , And Jer. Ives himself manifest to be NO CHRISTIAN from his own Observations , Reviling , Ostentation , &c. By a Witness for Christianity in Faith and Life , George Whitehead . His Mischief shall return upon his own Head , Psal. 7. 16. Printed in the Year 1674. A Serious Search INTO Jeremy Ives ' s Questions to the Quakers . SInce Jeremy Ives his late Daring Challenge under Pretext of a Sober Request , and his attempting to prove the Quakers no Christians , is now changed into Questions for the Quakers , which he saith , are grounded upon some Observations made upon the Papers lately published by Thomas Rudyard and one W. P. which are pretended Replies to Jeremy Ives his sober Request to the Quakers , but will appear by the Light of the ensuing Observations ( he sayes ) to be but Idle Shifts and Evasions . Seeing he begins at this contemning Rate against us , and vilifying and slighting our Friends Answers , and pretends such Light in his own Observations ; it is needful they should be inspected and seriously examined , however he reckon his Questions and Obserservations so very clear and lightsom Proofs against us , I will assure him , we find no such Validity in them to u●c●ristian us . I observe two general Accusations on which his Matter much depends to render the Quakers no Christians . First , Condemning that in others , which they allow in themselves . Secondly , Disdaining , Huffing , Slandering and Reviling . Both which I grant with him , are so far from being either Characters of a Chr●stian , or Infallible Marks of a Disciple of Christ , that they are wholy inconsistent with Christianity . The first Position is thus to be considered . For Men to condemn that in others which they allow in them elves , is an Inconsistency and a self Condemnation , where the Matter is the same in every Respect , both as to the Nature and Circumstance ; though that which is an Evil in it self is condemnable , and not to be allowed either in one's self or in another ; much more is his Condemnation aggravated , who allows that Evil in himself which he condemns in others : Other things that are Lawful in themselves become accidentally Evil , through the Abuse or Evil-Mind that brings them forth . But to the second Position ; it 's granted , that Disdaining , Huffing , Slandering and Reviling are evil in themselves , if by Huffing he means a fierce Despising & scornful Slighting those that are good , or that deserve it not ; and by Reviling , a making a worthy Man base , or calling a Man all to naught : The Truth of it is , Jeremy , thou wouldst appear in these Matters a very grave , sober Christian , and a Man only for solid and savoury Expressions : But whether thou hast not plaid the Hypocrite in these Pretences of Seriousness and Christianity , and brought thy self under the Guilt , both of condemning that in others which thou allowest in thy self , and of Disdaining , Slandering and Reviling , will further appear in the following Examination . Thou sayest , that these Papers , like all the rest of the Quakers Writings , are stuffed with vain and frothy Expressions ; and what those are thou instances W. P's saying , that the Product of many dayes Travail was but a sorry Mouse [ the Product of Jeremy ' s great Mountain . ] Which was with Reference to thy daring and vapouring Challenge , falsly term'd by thee , A sober Request to the Quakers : But it disgusts thee to use such a Comparison as that of a sorry Mouse , and why so ? Is it because of the Impropriety of the Speech , or that it is too Ironical for such a grave , sober Christian as Jeremy Ives would be accounted ? But I tell thee , Jeremy , thou art one of them that str●ins at a Gnat , and swallows a Camel , whether thou thinkest these Expressions proper or not . And secondly , to prove us guilty of thy second Position , thou sayest that Our Friends Papers abound with Railings and bitter Invectives , thinking to raise thereby a Dust ( a plain Falshood ) to darken the Understanding of the unwary Reader ; and what are these ? In calling thee Audacious , Privateer , Bravado , Hector , Senacherib , Impudent , &c. And further ( to shew thy self a very moderate and sober Christian ) thou sayest , That these Papers abound with Untruths , thou wilt not break the Laws of good Manners , as they do , to call them LYES and FORGFRIES ; And so that here thy Modesty & Seriousness is such , as when thou hast insinuated , that the Quakers are No Christians , nor yet Followers of the Laws of Good Manners , for Charging their Adversaries ( such as thou and thy Brother T. Hicks ) with Lyes & Forgeries ; but thou wouldst not be thought so to Unchristian and Unmanner thy self , as to use such Expressions , as Audacious , Privateer , Impudent , Impudent , Lyes and Forgeries : Oh demure Jeremy ! Hypocrita cupit se videri justum . But first , If he be No Christian that condemns that in others which he allows in himself , then is Jeremy Ives No Christian. Secondly , If he be No Christian that is guilty of such Language as he himself accounts Disdaining , Huffing , Reviling , Railing , and bitter Invectives , as namely , Audacious , Impudent , Lyes , &c. and thus to charge another , be Unchristian and Unmannerly , then is Jer. Ives NO Christian , by his own Observation ; But that Jer. Ives is herein both Self-condemn'd & Guilty , take a View of his Language against us in his Pamphlet , viz. Mcn of Lying Spirits , gross Equivocations , idle Shifts and Evasions , Bedlam-man , audacious and ridiculous , daring Prophets , your Baseness , wilful Baseness , pretended Impulses and Enthusiastick Necessities , Lawyers Logick , Figments of thy Fancy , little Wtticisms to please thy simple beguiled Clients , this Emperick of the Law Thomas Rudyard , what Impostors , they pretend the Spirit to be the Rule , when they can give no more Evidence of it then Mahomet or Muggleton , the sad Shifts the poor Men are put to , their Enthusiastick Principles , such idle Enthusiasts . Thus Jeremy Ives through his Observations . Judge Serious Reader ; Is not here both Huffing , Disdaining and Reviling , and what he himself hath accounted such ? But if Jeremy think this not enough to prove himself condemned , and guilty of both Disdaining , Huffing , Reviling and Vanting , let his Salutation to Arthur Cook upon the Exchange be added , viz. Thou Pittiful , Fool , thou Knave , thou Loggerhead ; And if to call any Man's Papers Lyes , and Forgeries , be a breaking the Laws of good Manners , and to call a Man Audacious or Impudent , bewray an Unchristian Spirit , and be corrupt Communication , as he implies , then has Jeremy Ives both bewrayed an Unchristian Spirit , & hath broken the Laws of good Manners , and condemned that in others which he hath plainly allowed in himself ; for in his Book entituled , Innocency above Impudency , he doth not only charge his Opposer with Impudency , but he gives him the Lye near thirty Times ; and likewise in his Quakers Quaking , he has shewn his Envy and Ill-Language sufficiently . Where art thou now Jeremy Ives ? Art thou not here found guilty , and allowing that in thy self , which thou hast condemned others for , as Unchristian ? And also thy Brother T. Hicks , whose Quarrel thou hast espoused , hath used such Language to some of us , as Knave , Impudent Fellow , Audacius Fellow , Coxcomb , &c. which is much like thy Pittyful Fool , Knave , Loggerhead , &c. See now Jeremy , how thy own Observation and Charge is deservedly retorted upon thy self . Art not thou found a Huffer ( yea and a Puffer too ) a Railer , a Scorner and Disdainer , and thinks it a great Disparagement to be accounted short of an Honest Heathen ; but I must tell thee , that there are many Heathens that are a great deal more sober , serious and fearing God then thou art , as thy Lightness and frothy Deportment at the late Meetings did evince : However , thou braggest of thy being able , by the Grace of God , to approve thy self as Honest in all thy Correspondencies in the World as the best of them , and challengest us to produce the Person or Persons that shall say otherwise of thee . How thou art able to approve thy self , and how thou hast approved thy self , have a different Sense : But however , I must tell thee , It had been more proper and more credible for others to have thus commended thy Honesty , then to have done it so highly thy self ; but as for these Things , it is not my present Business to seek or enquire out Occasions against thee in the Concerns of this World ; let those speak that are offended , if they have Occasion given them , or have complained of thee , I have enough against thee of other Concerns . Whereas Jer. Ives untruly chargeth our Friends Papers too abound with Untruths , pretending himself so much oblieged by the Laws of Good Manners , as that he will not call them Lyes and Forgeries , of which he shall mention but Two , which are , 1. That he pretended to be delegated by T. Hicks , but was not . 2. That in the Dispute , when he was to prove us No Christians , instead thereof he put us to prove our selves Christians . To prove the first , an Untruth , he sayes , he was concern'd by their Consent , else how came we to direct our Letters to him with Mr. Kiffin and others . Jeremy , thou art besides the Business here , for thy pretending to be delegated , was in T. Hicks's Cause at the Meeting near Wheeler Street ; and that he might be concluded by thee as personating him : Did not this concern those Matters whereof we charg'd him ? for thou may'st remember this was urg'd at the Dispute ; The Letters to thee and the rest , did not concern thee to personate T. H. in his Absence there ; but only as an Assister of him in his Presence amongst the rest ; but that thou wast not so delegated , to personate Thomas Hicks , nor that he gave up his Cause to be concluded in Jer. Ives , seems evident , 1. In that Jeremy and those then with him durst not enter upon the Particulars charg'd against T. Hicks , as Forgeries , nor would suffer them to be read . 2. In that we have a Certificate to the contrary under Tho. Chamberlain's hand , signifying , that John Gladman told him , that T. Hicks said , That Jeremy Ives was not deputed by him . And to the second ; I wonder that thou canst call this an Untruth , that when thou hadst said , Thou wouldst prove us no Christians , instead thereof thou calld'st for an Evidence of our Christianity , or put us to prove our selves Christians , and W. Penn to produce Evidence to distinguish himself as a true Minister ( that hath Immediate Inspiration for his Rule ) from an Impostor ; See the Narrative of that Day 's Meeting , from page 52 to page 56. in the taking of which Discourse we had both Careful and Ready Writers ; and I am sure that Jeremy's Attempts , to prove us No Christians , and W. Penn an Impostor , did amount to that miserable Shift of calling for an Evidence on our parts as before , and he now confesseth , That he did require an Evidence for the Rule of our Faith and Practice by Inspiration , pag. 6. And was not this then for an Evidence of our Christianity , while we do not profess any real Christianity without Faith and Practice by Inspiration ? An Evidence of our being Divinely inspired must be an Evidence of our Christianity ; for none are true Christians , who deny Divine and Immediate Inspiration : And I do not understand what Jeremy Ives scoffs at us as Idle Enthusiasts & for Enthusiastick Principles ; but for holding this of Immediate Inspiration , nor do I see but that his Charge of Untruth ( in those two things before ) is justly to be turn'd upon himself as an Untruth against us . He concludes , That he might by all Laws of Dispute require Evidence of Inspiration , being the Rule of Faith and Practice , he would make the World believe that he is very expert in all the Rules of Dispute ; but I tell him , It had been more proper and reasonable for him to have required Evidence of our being Divinely inspired , as a Man in an enquiring unsatisfied Condition that wants Information , then as one that had given and promised before to prove his positive Charge of the Quakers being no Christians . It was his Part to prove this , or else to have acknowledged his Confident Rashness & Folly ; for could he with any Seriousness demand an Evidence of our being inspired of God ( when before he had concluded us no Christians , and promised Proof thereof ) and saith , At this turn we could do no more then Muggleton , which is a Reviling Aspersion : But we are sure it was a sorry Shift in him , instead of proving the Quakers no Christians , to put W. P. upon either proving himself a Minister of Christ , or to produce an Evidence for the Rule of his Faith by Inspiration ; and what that Evidence was he would have besides the Spirit 's own self-Evidence , concurring with a Holy Conversation , he did not shew us , but this is like the rest of his uncertain Work against us , to make a Buz and a Noise in the World , to render such Odious as are more Righteous then himself , as in his Hypocritical , Audacious , Daring Challenge he most falsly accuseth us . 1. Where he saith , That W. Penn ' s Confession of his Faith , though in Scripture-Expressions , was but a meer Equivocation . 2. That though our Discourses and Confessions of Faith be cloathed with Scripture-Language now more then formerly , they are but gross Equivocations . 3. That our former Opinions [ I suppose , since we were a People ] were Vile , Absurd and Nonsensical , and that he proved to our Faces to make Void all Rules of Faith and Christian Practice . 4. That by Force of Argument he drove us to that streight , that we could make no Reply . 5. He chargeth us with base and insolent Behaviour in hic Absence . These are notorious Falshoods , and to these two last many Hundreds that were present can testifie the contrary , and that Jeremy Ives herein is a most false and ridiculous Boaster . These Falshoods together with his daringly challenging & grosly reviling us in his Paper , are notwithstanding entituled by him , A sober Request ; but now since we find upon the same Challenge another Title put before this , which is [ Quakers no Christians ] Judge Reader , was this proper to such a Paper , requesting a Meeting to prove us no Christians ? He and his Bookseller might very well have spared this Title until such Proof had been made , as it might have been proper to , and not thus to cover their beggarly Shifts with notorious Untruths , do but see how Jeremy's Work hangs together , viz. Quakers no Christians . A sober Request to the Quakers . If you dare appoint a Time and Place , &c. I earnestly request a Meeting with you , to prove , That you are no Christians . I require an Evidence for the Rule of your Faith , by Inspiration . I know no farther Proof we have as yet from him of his Charge that the Quakers are no Christians . Is it not easy to see the Absurdity and Folly of these men , and how they make Lyes their Refuge , and cover themselves with Falshoods ? For his daring us to appoint Time & Place , he querieth , If this Phrase signifies any more then if you are not afraid to appoint Time and Place ? As if we could have no other Reason , but being afraid of Jeremy Ives to forbear appointing Time and Place to meet him : Oh Insolent , Vain-glorious Boaster ! dost thou not know in thy own Conscience and by sufficient Experience , that we have not been afraid of thee ? I am ashamed to see such Proud , Insolent and Popular Ostentation and Falshood , and Groundless Insinuations against us under the Profession of Christianity . After the same rate he further cracks thus , viz. Whether I had not good Reason to think , you were afraid to hear your selves prov'd No Christians , when all your Wits and Time were chiefly exhausted in two publick Meetings to divert us from the Proof thereof , as Thousands can testifie , pag. 7. A most notorious Untruth & gross Abuse , as thousands can testifie ; For , 1. The Baptists Wits & Work was chiefly , to divert us from the pursuit of our ●harge against their Brother T. Hicks , contrary to the Agreement upon which the first Meeting was appointed . 2. Hath Jer. Ives and his Brethren so far forgot themselves , as not to remember how their Wits and Time were taken up at both Meetings , especially his in the Latter , to prove the Quakers no Christians , and yet after Jeremy is fain both to Dare us , and earnestly Request a Meeting with us , to prove us no Christians ; which if he had so rarely done at either Meeting before , he needed not thus have Dared and Requested a Meeting , but only have shown the World , How he had done it ; instead whereof he hath given them Ground to believe , that he is baffled in his Attempts , which makes him so swell and bel●●h out Daring and Reviling afterwards . But he takes it for granted , that the right spirited Christians were more animated and provok●d by the Daring of their Adversaries to vindicate the Honour of their Religion ; But this is only implyed in Jeremy's Question instead of any general Proof : It is a Wonder that he and his Brethren were not more provoaked to vindicate the Honour of their Religion in Behalf of their Brother T. Hicks . in whom their Religion is so much concerned , as he is set up as an eminent Agent of the Anabaptists , and Teacher among them ; for was not the Honour of the Baptists Religion at all concerned in this Person ? J. Ives will concern the Honour of our Religion in any particular Book of any one among us that he thinks he hath something against ; but Jeremy let me tell thee , that thy Daring hath no such Impression upon ourSpirits , as to provoak us , either to meet thee only as Jer. Ives , or upon thy own Terms : Nor do we at all reckon the Honour of our Religion impared , either by thy Daring , Huffing , Reviling or Deriding ; but rather we count it Matter of Rejoycing , when such as thou art , revile and speak all Manner of Evil of us , while we know you do it falsly , and that we suffer it for his Name sake , who hath upheld us through Sufferings and Reproaches unto this Day . Jeremy Ives , for Proof of his daring Challenge , and to stop T. Rudyard , quotes Edw. Burrough's Invitation and Challenge to the whole Church of Rome , daring them to suffer a certain Number of Quakers to come among them ; and likewise , that he challengeth all the Priests of Dublin to meet him to try their God , their Ministry and Worship . It seems this daring Champion J. I. who would be accounted an eminent Warriour for Christianity , must be beholding to such as he counts No Christians for Proof of his Challenge , though if his and Edw. Burroughs be seriously compared , a vast Difference and Disparity will appear between them , both as to the Nature and Manner of them , and their different Spirits ; for E. B. did in both plainly and seriously design to oppose the Spirit of Persecution , both at Rome and Dublin : As to [ Daring ] 't is only a Proposition by Way of Question to the Church of Rome , thus , And dare you suffer a certain Number of us to come among you and preach what we hold , and a certain Number of you shall freely come among us , and preach what you hold without Persecution or any Violence , as we would expect and have the same from you ? And this to try which would convert ‖ the most , and which had the Power and Spirit of God with them , &c. E. B 's Works , fol. 470. Now let any Reasonable Man judge whether this Proposition for a mutual Liberty to preach without Persecution , and to see or try the Effect of each One's Ministry , was not more serious and of another kind then Jeremy Ives's Daring Challenge , mixt with Untruths and Abuses , favouring of a Boasting Scornful Spirit . And 2dly , for E. B' s Challenge to the Priests of Dublin to meet him and F. Howgil , to try their God , their Ministry and Worship : This was when these two were Prisoners in Dublin proposed to those of the persecuting Spirit ; the Reason whereof is plainly given , They being under Afflictions and Sufferings , abundantly reproached , and the Lord's Truth greatly infamed by many Backbiting and Slanderous Tongues , especially by profest Ministers in the Ears of their People , slandering them , as being Jesuits , Seducers , Deceivers , Hereticks , Blasphemers and Witches , Fol. 90 of E. B's Works . See here , was it not reasonable that these Sufferers should call out for a Meeting to clear themselves from such Infamies and Reproaches in the Presence of their Accusers : Had Jer. Ives been under such Suffering by the Quakers , and made such a Proposition to them , he might have made this his Instance ; but he and his Brethren have not been willing thankfully to enjoy their own Liberties quietly in a Time of Peace , but have endeavour'd to render us ( who have ben a suffering People ) as Odious and Obnoxious as they can , wherein their Design seems most tending to stir up Persecution against us , like Ungrateful Men. His other Instance is that of Solomon Eccles his Challenge , to fast seaven Dayes and seaven Nights , &c. made to Papists and Protestants of divers Sorts , as Presbyters , Independents , Baptists , Fifth-Monarchy Men , &c. Though Jeremy is pleased to render him like a Hector or S●ager , or rather a Bedlam-man : He hath herein condemned him before a Tryal , which he might have forborn until himself or some of his Brethren , had made Tryal ; but it is not likely that they would expose themselves , their Bellies , or their God , to such a Jeopardy : However , as to the Ground of S. E's Confidence , and how he might have been born up in such a Case , it seems not reasonable that either Jeremy Ives or I should determine to the World ( whatever we think ) while none of them dare adventure upon such a Tryal with him : I must confess , the Prophets of Baal were rather to be commended for their Confidence in adventuring the Tryal of their God upon Elijah's Challenge , then Jer. and his Brethren , though those Prophets of Baal had but ill Success : But if J. Ives objects that S. E. had no Scripture Instance for such a Challenge , but only an Impulse by Inspiration without Evidence : I reply , neither hath Jeremy Scripture to controul him herein , nor durst he adventure upon Tryal for the Proof or Evidence of such an Impulse ( Yet Fasting is more easily proved in Scripture then Jeremy's Challenge ) However , it is not reasonable we should send S. E. to Bedlam before Tryal , or that he be found so fit for it as Jeremy Ives has rendred him . Another Instance is , G. Fox calling the Doctors in Europe to come forth , and meet him in the open Field , and to answer him if they dare ; and for this he quotes A Primer for the Schollars and Doctors in Europe , in the Epistle , p. 4. and in the Book , p. 40 & 41. Wherein J. I. hath unfairly cited the Matter , which is not at all of the Nature of his Challenge ; for this Primer chiefly consists of Queries upon their seaven Arts & Terms , used in the Universities and Schools of Learning : In the Place cited the Words are truly thus , viz. These Queries are to call them out into the Field , that every one may see their Garment , that they may give Answer to every one of these Words , Names & Things ; let them come out now to little Children ; thus in Epist. p. 4. And after divers hard terms about Theology , in p. 40. he queries thus , Whether or no they are the Words that the Holy Ghost hath taught ? answer me , if you can , or da●e venture , what every Particular of these Words is , and what Center and Ground they come from . But here are not the Words , Come forth and meet me in the open Field , and answer me if you dare , according to Jeremy's Citation . Now consider what Parallel there can be between G. F's calling the Schollars and Doctors to come out to little Children , to explain their Terms of Art ; and Jeremy's Insulting , Scornful and Reviling Challenge hypocritically named A Sober Request ; and surely , the Schollars and Doctors might have given a sober Answer unto G. F's Queries , and explained their hard Words and Terms of Art , as publickly in Print , in the open Field or Face of the World , without during them to appointing such a Meeting as J. Ives dares and begs for in his Challenge , to prove the Quakers No Christians , after he had several Opportunities , and made divers Attempts to do it before : G. F. used no such Uncertainty nor Hypocrisie or Envy in his calling out the Doctors , as J. Ives had done against the Quakers , as appears in comparing G. F's Primer ( to the Doctors and Schollars of Europe ) with J. Ives ' s Sober Request to the Quakers : We value not his Outcry of Baseness , Railing , and Clamoring , and wilful Baseness ; herein he shews but his fretful Huffing against us , & himself guilty thereof . As for our own Prophets outdoing of him twenty Times , as he saith , their outdoing is neither of the Nature of his doings , nor attended with those Circumstances ; for his ( as hath been told him ) is False , Impertinent and Impudent : He by daring us rendering us afraid to meet him , which is a gross Untruth , & Reviling us , endeavours to make us Odious before Tryal , and to vaunt and insult over us in a frothy light Spirit , which hath evidently appeared in him . In short : Further to shew the Disparity of Jer. Ives his insolent frothy Challenge to the Quakers , and our Friends serious Challenge and Propositions to the Pope , Cardinals , and other Persecutors , as T. Rudyard , in his Book , entituled , The Anabaptists Printed Prop●osas , p. 18 , 19. answers Jeremy thus , viz. If he means by Sober Request , that Expression of his , If you dare appoint Time and Place , &c. it is past my Skill to find the Correspondency of the Body of his Sheet to its Head or Title ; but if Daring to appoint be the best Terms the Anabaptists can invite us to a Religious Discourse , I must declare his Language is so far from being scriptural , that it comes short of the common Hectors or Sword-men of our Time , &c. Now Jeremy's Daring Challenge shews it self not to be on a Serious Religious Account , nor in the best Terms of Invitation thereto ; but rather in this somewhat like the common Hectors or Sword-men of the Times , that confide in their own Strength and Art ( as he doth in his pedantick Knack of sophistical Twisting and Turning in his Arguings ) he provides , That none be admitted to speak ( as the Disputants ) but himself and another , whom we shall appoint ; as also , that a certain Hour be agreed on for the Beginning , and another for the Ending of the Disputation for that day , and that neither Party shall exceed that Time , unless by mutual Consent : wherein he has very carefully contriv'd his Matter , that he may not be spent , or beaten out of Breath ; and as a man that has no super-natural Aid to trust to , being Doubtful that his Natural Strength should fail ( in case his single Opposer should not be stinted to a few Hours ) which is quite contrary to the Nature of S. E's Challenge to Fast ; for Jeremy provides more carefully for his Carcase in this Case , then S. E. doth to be sure . And our Friends E. B. or G. F's proposing to many Persecutors , both Papists and others , to answer or meet them without such a Stint or Limitation of single Person or ●ours ( as Jeremy would bargain aforehand ) ●rgues to me , that they did rather confide in ●●e Power and Aid of God to assist them in ●●eir Testimony against their Adversaries ; ●●d not in their own Strength or Wisdom of ●●e Flesh , as Jeremy's does , which makes ●●m be so careful that both the Time and single Person be stinted and pitcht upon : for otherwise he has Cause to be doubtful , that his God would fail him . I will conclude , that the true God did not call him to give forth such a Challenge as his is ; for he hath no Rule nor Authority from the Scriptures for it , nor any Example from Christ's Ministers for such a Daring Vapouring Challenge ; nor can he Evidence any special Command for it by immediate Inspiration or Revelation from Heaven ( as our Friends profess ) for that 's inconsistent with his Religion : Therefore his own presumptuous Will is his Rule and Law for his Challenge , both as to the Matter and Manner of it , as having no footing either in the Holy Scriptures or Power of God. Whereas from his Daring us to appoint Time and Place to prove the Quakers No Christians , it was told him , that then it seems they are not yet proved No Christians ; upon which he demands , Whether a Truth may not be oftner prov'd then once , especially where some stop their Ears , as the Deaf Adder ? Hereupon I ask him , if he had before proved us No Christians , or really judged he did so , Was it proper for him to dare and beg for another Meeting meerly to prove us No Christians , which is not again to prove us none ? or did he expect to open our Ears by going over his Matter again ? But if he reckoned us such Deaf Adders , that would not hear him before , his Business had been rather to let the World know how rarely he had proved his Charge against us , and not to trouble the World , or alarm City and Country with his Cracking and Boasting what he would do in his daring Vaunts , which favour of meer Pride , Vanity and Impudence , and not of any Seriousness , or Good-will towards us ; nor as a man that would really seek our Conversion to Christianity , supposing us none ; for did ever the Apostles or Ministers of Christ thus dare vilifie , reproach or insult over the poor Ethnicks or moral Heathen ( as we are counted ) in the sight of their Enemies , or open View of the World in order to their Conversion ) as Jer. Ives has dealt by the despised Quakers ? As touching the Question T. R. put to him , Whether this be that Jeremy , that was cast into New-gate upon a Religious Account , and for his Testimony against Swearing , in the year 1660. To this he answereth , I am not that Jeremy that was committed to New-gate for a Religious Refusing the Oath of Allegiance , &c. On which I ask , if it was not for some kind of refusing the Oath ? and whether if a Conscientious Refusing , it was not Religious ? But that Jeremy got out of Prison by Swearing , this he denyeth not ; for he saith , I am that Jeremy , that took the Oath of Allegiance , and writ a Book to prove that some Oathes were Lawful , though all were not . Well , I 'le not press him , whether he did not once reckon the Oath of Allegiance Unlawful ( when he was committed to New-gate ) but tell him , that methinks he doth a little like a Temporizer , colour over and construe the Business of his Letter to his Brother Pittman and Brother Sewel . 1. First , in saying , I am not that Jeremy that ever writ against the Oath of Allegiance , either privately or publickly . 2. In saying , I am that Jeremy , that did in a Letter blame a Friend for saying , He had rather have given Fifty Pound then have took the Oath of Allegiance , and yet swore he took it Freely and Willingly , &c. By which , Jeremy , thou seemest only to strike at thy Brother's Hesitation , Scruple and Dissimulation about the taking the Oath , and not at the meer taking it , or Matter of Fact. But methinks thy severe Letter to them sounds otherwise , as that it was for taking the Oath , as well as their Scruple or Dissatisfaction in doing it ; else , what mean these Passages in thy Letter ? viz. I do well to be angry with you . That you would be as easily perswaded to part with , as unwilling to suffer for your spiritual Liberties . How unlike the Christians in former Times are you , whose Zeal was so hot for God that their Eyes prevented the Morning , that thereby they might prevent the Rage of the Adversary . I alwayes did conclude , that those that would quit the Cause of Righteousness , would quit the Wayes of Holiness , as yesterday's sad Experience hath taught , to the perpetual Joy of your Adversaries , and the sadning the Hearts , and adding Afflictions to the Bonds of the Prisoners of he Lord. Thus far Jeremy . See here , was it only the Scruple of these Men in taking the Oath that is opposed or reproved , and not their taking it ? Or was it the Regret they had upon them in the taking it , that would be such a perpetual Joy to the Adversaries ; or rather the Matter of Fact , as it appeared to them , namely , the taking the Oath , and therein acting contrary to the Testimony of others that suffered , to the sadning their Hearts , and adding to their Afflictions ? Besides , saith Jeremy , My Bonds are my Crown , but your Cowardly Spirit is my great Cross : But it seems he kept this Crown but a little while , if he in a few Dayes after got himself out of Prison by Swearing : And wherein did their Cowardly Spirit appear , but in their Swearing , contrary t● their Consciences , as Jeremy in his chiding Letter saith ? Now God is proving to see if you will obey him or no ; and did not yesterday's Work witness that you are willing to prefer the Fear of a Man that must dye , before the Fear of the great God ; and the Fear of them that can kill the Body , before the Fear of the Lord that can cast both Body and Soul into Hell ? I have no more to say but this , that your Cowardly Temporizing and Complying with the PRECEPTS OF MEN , makes me jealous , that your Fear towards the Lord is taught by the Precepts of Men. Thus far Jeremy again . Now the Question is , did J. I. in all these Words bear upon their Hesua●●on or Scruple in taking the Oath , or only reprove their Swearing they took it freely , when they could not really do it ? Methinks , if this had been the Thing , and that Jeremy had really allowed of the Matter of Fact it self , as the taking the Oath , he should have writ in another Strain then he did unto his Brethren for taking it ; he should not have charged them for quitting the Cause of Righteousness to the Perpetual Joy of the Adversaries ; nor with adding Afflictions to the Bonds of the Lord's Prisoners ; nor with yesterday's Work , witnessing their Willingness to prefer the Fear of a Man that must dye ; nor of Cowardly Temporizing and Complying with the PRECEPTS of Men : for surely , here is the Matter of Fact concerned ; but if he had approved of the Oath it self , and only disapproved of their Weakness in scrupling and taking it in an unsatisfied Conscience or doubtful Mind , he should then have endeavoured to have removed their Scruples , and to have pacified their weak Consciences with urging the Lawfulness of what they did , by demonstrating it to them ; but the Thing appears otherwise , and that Jeremy did fall under the Judgment that he gave against his Brethren , as namely , that of Cowardly Temporizing and Complying with the Precepts of Men ; as may be suspected from his saying , What if I had been once against the Oath , & afterward had took it , must this needs make me an Impostor ? Surely this doth not clear him , nor render him a Stable Christian. His implying or insinuating Tho. Rudyard guilty of Forgery , for putting Mens Names to own the Matter in a Book without their Consent or Privacy , p. 7. & 11. I suppose Tho. Rudyard hath answered for himself to this Matter elsewhere , viz. to a Paper of T. Hicks that charged him with the same Fact : And for my Part I do not understand that he his chargeable with Forgery herein , though he had not their Consent or Privacy , seeing their Names were sent up Inhabitants then present ( with divers others ) at the Examination of the Anabaptists Lying Wonder in Lincolnshire , that Richard Anderson ( untruly insinuated to be a Quaker ) whose Child was falsly alledged to be cured of a Leprosie by Means of the Baptists Prayers ; and the Certificate being sent up to him with the Names of those then present and Ear-Witnesses of that Account , and others that subscribed their Hands , as further Witnesses thereto ; whether they consented to the publishing of their Names to the Man's Account or not , was not material , so long as they knew the Thing was true ; & what Reason had T. R. or any others , to think that they would scruple their Names being printed ( as Persons present ) at such Examination or Account when they were present Ear-Witnesses , and then Assenters to the Credit thereof ; all this doth not render them No Witnesses , much less T. R. a Forg●r for giving the World a true Account of the Matter , as it was sent up to him ( and not contrived by him ) by publishing amongst other Testimonies that Certificate that detected the Baptists Forgery from the Hands of several Witnesses , who really subscribed thereto , who withall certified and sent the Names of those Inhabitants present . The Baptists Boasts ( about the said Lying Wonder ) are sufficiently detected in our Friends Answers thereto . But Jeremy thinks he payes us off in several Passages we are now coming to , as in asking , Whether it be not very Uncharitable for W. P. to Violate the Laws of God and the Laws of the King , in remembring any thing against those whom the King had graciously pardoned ; else , that he would not have told Mr. Faldo in his Rejoynder , pag. 406. of the Nonconformists preaching up Blood and Treason , and Garments rol'd in the Blood of Kings , & c ? I must tell Jeremy , That he hath herein dealt unfairly by W. P. and aggravated his Words by adding BLOOD and TREASON ] Whenas his Words are , They are true Gospel-Ministers , and their Feet truly Beautiful , whose Gospel is , Peace on Earth , and Good-will towards Men ; and not Garments rol'd in the Blood of Kings and Princes , Rulers and People : No Worldly Armies , Battels , Spoils , Sequestrations , &c. Though its true , that John Faldo and his Brethren are retorted upon by W. P. for their Preaching up the former War ; but this was not to violate the King's Favour in pardoning them , but to give them a Check for their being so busie against us in a Persecuting Spirit ; and particularly , for Iohn Faldo's Abuse of William Penn , and medling with his deceased Father ; about which I refer the Reader to W. P's own Answer to speak for himself , in his Rejoynder to Iohn Faldo ) pag 405 , 406. And so W. P's Design might be rather to Humble them , and to reclaim them from that old bitter Spirit , wherein they were formerly Incendiaries , and yet bring forth their Invectives , tending to stir up Persecution against the People of the Lord [ And have not both the Holy Prophets and Christ also reminded such a persecuting Generation , both of their own and their Fathers former Iniquities , seeing them continuing therein in the same Spirit of Envy ? ] But I doubt not but W. P. desires their Repentance , that they may be converted from their Persecuting Spirit , that they may receive Pardon from God as well as from the King. But Ieremy , thou that wouldst seem so Zealous against Uncharitableness , and Violating the Laws of God and the King ; hast thou dealt charitably by E. Burroughs , in saying , He d●th justifie the late Wars against the King ? and not only so , but thou art pleased to tell the World twice or thrice over , that we justifie the late Wars against the King. How now , Ieremy ! Is this thy Charity and Respect to the Laws of God and the King ? Hast thou not herein shewn a persecuting Spirit to render us obnoxious ? And why so ? Because E. B. in severely Warning the late Powers of their Down-fall , did by way of Reproof tell Oliver what God had done for him , even in the same Letter to him wherein he plainly also telleth him of the Great Oppressions which the People of God suffered under him , both in their Persons and Estates ; Saying also to Oliver , If I perish I must speak the Truth ; most of the Prisons this day in all thy Iurisdictions do testifie the Unjust Judgments and Great Oppressions and Cruelties ; yea , and further conditionally threatens Oliver , That God would confound and him ; see E. B's Works , from pag. 551. to pag. 583. how plainly and faithfully he did warn Oliver , and those men then in Power , of their Overthrow . To be sure E. B. was no Temporizer ; neither have we forborn in dealing plainly with those in Power , when we have had Cause , as the Lord hath moved and authorized us . And further to clear E. B. and the Reprinter or Publisher of his Books , as to their Freeness from being either a Factions Party , or Seditious to the Government that now is , and to manifest what a True Prophet he was ( and that never man dealt more plainly ) against the former Power and Government , particularly in his Message to the then Rulers of England , fol. 594. viz. If you of the Army be alwayes Treacherous and Disobedient towards the Lord , and abuse your Power , and trifle away your Hour about Places of Honour , and such Self-seeking Matters , and the Cause of God be neglected by you , and his People continued Oppressed Sufferers under you , as they have long been ; even then shall you be cast aside with shameful Disgrace , and the Heavy Hand of the Lord shall be upon you in Judgment , and you shall be smitten more then any before you ; your Estates shall not be spared from the Spoiler , nor your Souls from the Pit , nor your Persons from the Violence of Men , no , nor your Neeks from the Ax ; for if you be Unfaithful , and continually Treacherous to the Cause of God , then shall you be left to the Will of your Enemies , and they shall charge Treachery and Treason upon you , &c. But our Opposer , who under the Pretence of Christianity and Charitableness , shews himself void of both , tells us of a Quakers Book , entituled , The West answering to the North , hath much to this Purpose , which ( saith he ) I am not willing to write out , because I am not willing to expose you . I cannot but observe the Man's Dissimulation and base Insinuation in this implicite Kind of accusing us , hereby to render us more suspicious and obnoxious , then if he had dealt plainly , especially whilst he accuseth us over and over with justifying the late Wars against the King , whenas that very Book quoted by him , entituled , The West answering to the North printed 1657. doth in the whole Tenour of it severely reprehend those then in Power , to wit , Oliver and his Ministers for their Oppressions , Cruelties , and Arbitrary & Tyrannical Proceedings , which they pretended to condemnin those before them : though there might be some Words too harsh in the said Book as reflecting backward , but with an Intent to judge them then in Power ; yet it is to be considered , as chiefly writ by two Officers or Captains of the old Army , being Common Wealths Men ( as I understand ) who had not as then wholy got over the Warring Spirit , however did sympathize with our Poor , Innocent Friends , when they beheld their deep Sufferings , as in some Degree sharing with them ; though its probable , some Remainder of their former Sharpness of Spirit was left , wherein they had been animated by such Zealous Chaplains as Jeremy ; yet those Books quoted by him were extant long before the King's Pardon , which he pretends so greatly to respect ; but we have not gone about to serve him and his Brethren thus , as to rake up all the Baptists Books that concerned the former War and Matters of State before the Kings coming in , or Act of Indemnity : However , this we find Cause to believe , that , whatever Respect J. Ives & his Brethren may pretend , either to the Kings Gracious Pardon or the Law of Charity , they would shew little Mercy if they had Power to execute their Enmity , as well as to render us obnoxious to the Government ; such as Jer. Ives and his Brother T. Hicks , would in all Probability be as busie Agents for our Ruine , as they are now to endeavour it by such an Indictment as this ( that is made up of their present Accusations against us ) viz. That you justifie the late Wars against the King ; that you are No Christians , nor worthy of so venerable a Name ; that your Doctrines are Destructive both to Scripture and Christian Religion ; that your Confessions are gross Equivocations ; that your Opinions do make void all Rules of Christian Faith and Practice ; that your Friends of the Ministry are Impostors , false Prophets and Men of Lying Spirits : Thus far J. Ives . And then T. Hicks in his Dialogues against the Quakers , viz. That you are Destructive to all Human Society , Inconsistent with Government ; that you are as vile Impostors as ever were ; that your Religion is a meer Cheat , calculated to the Service of the Devil and your own Lusts , horrid Blasphemies ; that your chief Motive and Inducement to suffer , is the Satisfaction of your Wills and Lusts , or the promoting of your Carnal Interests ; that you are the Spawn of the wicked Brood , the Ranters and have likt up their Vomit ; Romish Emissaries ; Hereticks ; Mad Men ; Infatuated ; such as esteem the Holy Scriptures of no more Au●hority then Esop ' s Fables , and the Blood of Christ no more then an Unholy Thing , or the Blood of a Common Thief , yea worse ; that you reprobate the Holy Scriptures and the Person of Christ ; that you deny any future distinct Beings , Rewards or Eternal Advantages to Men after Death ; that your owning Christ , and the Christ you own , is a meer Mystical Romance , and that your Meetings are to Inveigle and Trapan People ; As also he recriminates the Quakers in General with the Enormities of some Particulars : These , with many more such like most bitter , false and absurd Invectives by Tho. Hicks the Baptist-Agent . O Persecuting Baptists ! But God be thanked , that these Mens Horns are shortned ; for if they were not , it is not unlikely but they would push and persecute asc ruelly as their Invectives are Inveterate , and tend thereto ; or as their New-England Brethren , whose Persecuting Spirits would not be satisfied without Innocent Blood. Again Jer. Ive , goes about to impeach us with an Inconsistency , and to exhibit a pregnant Proof by Retortion of our being No Christians ; In that the Quakers refuse the Oath of Allegiance , because they are against all Swearing , as being Inconsistent with Christianity , or living in the Life and Power of Christ , or under his Government ; and yet reckons that some among us swear , and for Instance he puts this Question , What think you of William Mead , who with Others took an Oath ? And what think you of Gerrard Roberts , who together with John Osgood , who with others took their Oathes , as appears by their Answer to a Bill in Chancery . To all which I reply from what I think . 1. I tell this Inquisitor , that I think they are all honest Men , fearing God , and Men conscientious towards him according to their Principle , and that they would not injure , or defraud or wrong any in their Properties or Rights ; and for what they do they dare appear before and answer the great God in the great Day of Judgment . However , if they were Conscious , they are resolved they would not make this Inquisitor their Confessor ; for they neither expect Mercy nor Absolution from him . 2. I also think ( and William Mead , John Osgood & Gerrard Roberts are satisfied ) that they are able to give an honest Account of their Conscientious Tenderness in this Case , and that according to a good Conscience , if in Love desired , or out of an honest Intention , or for a good End , without any Design of Injury towards them or their Profession : But they have no Cause to think that Ier. Ives doth enquire or accuse them to the World for any good End , or out of any Friendship to them , or Love to their Souls ; but rather from a Design of Mischief or Injury , as the Tenour of his Discourse against them imports : Therefore they are resolved rather to suffer his Revilings , and endure his Clamours , then gratifie a mischievous Spirit , by giving him Account of their Affairs or Proceedings for their Properties & Rights , which only they seek for ; and not to injure their Neighbours ( or any Man else ) in their Names , Persons or Estates . 3. That if either Ieremy , or any Baptists , or others for him , have made Search in Chancery , or do enquire of any Officers belonging thereto , whether any of the Quakers have given in their Answer upon Oath ? I think that he and such his Enquirers are Busibodies in other mens Matters ( while 't is not their own Concernments ) And whilst their Design and End therein is for Evil against our Friends , it might be supected by those Officers in trust concerned , as not to be for Good towards them or us , in their Inquiry ; and that therefore such busie Inquisitors might justly have met with a Repulse , and been rejected , and not answer'd in their captious Attempts . 4. To his falsly accusing the Quakers with daily impleading People at Law , I say , That though some of them have Occasion sometimes to make use of the Law , they are necessitated thereto , to maintain their just Rights & Properties from such Unconscionable Men as would otherwise make a Prey upon them , to Ruin them and theirs , and not to injure others , or defraud any of their Rights ; in such Cases the Law is used Lawfully , being for Justice and Right : It s probable that if the Quakers could neither make use of the Law , nor have their Answers accepted , for what 's their own proper Rights , but be devoured by Unreasonable or Wicked Men , our Opposer would not be so offended , nor inquisitive as he is into our Friends Affairs ; but he would think it ill to be so dealt by : If his Brethren should be asked , What think you of Jeremy Ives , who boasts that he is able to approve himself as Honest in all his Correspondencies in the World as the best of the Quakers ? But hath he done so ? hath he performed Promise and Covenant with all , and satisfied all his Creditors ? have none of them had cause to complain of him in those Matters ? It s not unlike but he would be very short at this , and give such an Answer as this , What 's that to you ? meddle with your own Business : I will not make you my Confessor ; or , I have done what I can to satisfie all , or so far as I was able : And so our Friends can easily answer , What 's their Concerns to Ier. Ives ? What has he to do to question or accuse them therein ? They have endeavoured to keep their Consciences in-offensive towards God and Men , as those that must give an Account to God , and not unto their Adversaries , who hav● no Jurisdiction over them or their Consciences . 5. I must take Leave further to enquire , seeing that Jer. Ives and Henry Don with divers others , have thus defined an Oath , viz. to say , God is my Witness , God is my Record ; I speak the Truth in Christ , I lye not ; my Conscience beareth me Witness in the Holy Spirit , &c. that these Expressions , with many more of the like Nature , are equivalent to an Oath ; and these to evince , That the Apostle Paul himself sware ; and that not only Christ , but the Apostle did both practise , enjoyn and exact Swearing upon others ; and to prove , that he charged others to swear , J. I. cites 2 Tim. 4. 1. & 1 Thes. 5. 27. [ Also J. Tombs in his Supplement about Swearing , saith , That the using these Speeches , I affirm before God , or this we say in the Presence of him that shall judge the Quick and the Dead , &c. is plain Swearing . ] Concerning which Definition and Plea for Swearing under the Gospel , these men are answered by that faithful Servant of the Lord , and Sufferer for the Cause of Christ , Samuel ●●sher , in his Antidote against Swearing , and his Supplementum Sublatum . Now suppose that any of our Friends find Freedom to use some such Expressions in their Testimonies before Authority , as , God is my Witness ; I speak the Truth in the Presence of God ; or I speak in the Fear of God ; or God knows I lye not , and this without Regret or Scruple of Conscience ; and suppose what they say , be believed and accepted of , as equivalent to an Oath ; and that those Magistrates or Ministers in Trust are satisfied therewith , and do not think it prejudicial to their Consciences to accept thereof ; what Instruction has Jeremy to give in such Cases ? What has he to do to shew himself a Busie Body in other Men's Matters ? And why should he rake into his Neighbours Affairs ; either to find out Occasion against them , or to prejudice them in their Properties ? Should not Jeremy's Business rather be , to convince the Quakers of the real Definition of an Oath , that they may not interfer with their Principle , rather then to seek to make them odious to the World , as Men perfidious therein ? For ( this is not the Way to perswade them to Jeremy's Christianity ) they would not willingly or wittingly profess one Thing and practise another : Thus far I have signified what I really think , in Answer to Jeremy's Question . As for his high Charge , viz. 1. How Impious then are the Quakers , who some of them swear themselves . and most of them take Pleasure in them that do so ? 2. Can Quakers be Men of Conscience and Integrity , that while they judge Swearing , will procure Men to swear ? Both which are manifestly false ; for they neither take Pleasure therein , nor procure Men to swear : if any of them have Occasion for Witnesses that do not scruple an Oath , it is the Magistrates , not the Quakers , that put them upon , or tender them an Oath ; for if their Testimony without an Oath might be accepted , the Quakers would be better satisfied : Let the Magistrates enjoyn them to speak Truth upon what Penalty they shall see meet ; we have proposed this for our selves as well as others . Whereas Ieremy takes the Grant , that W. P. gave to his Request for a Meeting to be upon Dishonourable or Impossible Conditions , and so worse then a Down-right Denyal ; of which he first mentio●●th that , If Mr. Kiffin , Mr. Plant , Mr. Dike and Mr. Hicks will give it under their Hands , that they will be bound to stand to what Jeremy shall Answer , Propose , Affirm or Deny . W. P's first Proposal runs thus : viz. 1st , Let Jeremy Ives make it appear to us , that he is deputed to this Work ; for it is beneath US to engage against a single Person , as well as beside our Business , as the Case lieth , to think our selves concerned in his Rodemontado's and vapouring Challenges : He is Privateer but for himself , and stands upon no Body's Legs but his own , and some think , not alwayes well on them neither . And why is this Impossible ? I suppose he doth not count it Dishonourable to be Deputed : But if them Impossible , it argues , they have not so much Confidence in Ieremy as he has in himself , and that they think not fit t● embarque their Cause in that Bottom : And what Reason is there then for a whole Body of People to subject themselves to the imperious Daring and Examination of such a singular boasting Bravado , if his own Brethren cannot confide in , nor subject their Cause to him ; and then is it reasonable We should meet him alone without a Deputation from them to this Work ? Another Condition is , That all we have against T. H. may be first debated ; and this is but reasonable , and J. I. unreasonable in interposing to divert our Prosecution of this : The Condition is thus laid down by W. P. 2. That he ( to wit , Jeremy Ives ) pe●●sonate T. Hicks , as to the Matter charged by us against him , to wit , of writing Forgeries , Perversions and Slanders . 3. That before he enters upon proving us No Christians , he would tell us what a True Christian is , or we go by no Standard . 4. Prove to us that he is that Christian , or else he is unfit to prove another No Christian. 5. That we are not such Christians , but Hereticks and Impostors . To our proposing that what we have against T. H. may be first debated , Jer. tells us , that we will not vindicate the Honour of our Profession , till we have vindicated the Honour of our Personal Reputations , as being more zealous thereof then of the Honour of God and Religion . This is a gross and apparent Untruth ; for both our Religion and Principles , as well as our Personal Reputations are concern'd in our Charge against Tho. Hicks , as appears plainly both in his Forgeries , Perversions , and Slanders , which concern both Doctrine and Practice : but it seems Jeremy is very raw , and unversed in the Controversies between us , and yet his Confidence will serve him to engage in the Quarrel for Tho. Hicks . To the second ; He counts this another of our poor Put-offs , and Unreasonable , that he should make good any more then he has charg'd against us : He counts it unreasonable then to personate T. H. in the Matter that we charge against him , was it not then Unreasonable he should so deeply engage for him before ? But Jeremy sayes , He is ready to make good what he has charged against us , by the Grace of God , if we DARE meet him . But this is to be understood as a distinct Offer of it self , without Respect to the Matter about Tho. Hicks : However , it is but single Daring and Vapouring Jeremy still , whose Brags and Attempts we value not , but slight his Folly therein . To the third : He counts this impertinent , When , saith he , we tell them they are no Christians either of one sort or another ; This he tells the Quakers , and it is but his own telling ; and I do not think but he doth in this violate some better Perswasions and Convictions , that he has had in himself : And while he confesseth , that he is a good Christian , that hath a Rule for his Faith and Practice in the Christian-Religion , and endeavours to the uttermost of his Strength and Understanding to believe and live accordingly . He concludes , they are No Christians that have no Rule for their Faith and Practice in the Christian - Religion ; and such are the Quakers , saith he , pag. 14. See what an Imperious and Censorious Judge this is : He says , we have No Rule , though we prosess , believe and practically own the Guidance of the Spirit of Christ , and in Subjection thereto do own the Holy Scriptures : And for our Lives and Conversations , I hope he doth not conclude , that either the People called Quakers , in general are therein Unchristian , or that his own is more Christian then theirs ; how comes he then to presume , that we have not the Spirit of Christ , or none of his Light in us for a Rule , in affirming , that the Quakers have No Rule for their Faith and Practice in the Christian - Religion ? But this Presumption is not strange to us , since he could openly tell William Gibson and me , that We were not inlightened with the Light of Christ. I could not but then take notice of the Man's Insolency and Foolish Censoriousness ; but how doth he prove that the Quakers have No Rule for their Faith and Practice in the Christian - Religion , and therefore are no Christians ? He thus attempts it , viz. That though George Keith , to keep up your Credit with the People , said , The Scriptures were onned by you as a Seoundary Rule for your Faith and Practice ; yet Edw. Burroughs contradicts him , and tells us in so many words , That the Scriptures are NO Rule or Guide of Faith and Life to the Saints ; see his Works , fol. 515. and reconcile your Prophets as well as you can . Thus far Jeremy . He would make the World believe , that he has here given the Quakers a deadly Blow , in rendring their Prophets irreconcileable ; yea , and to fasten the Contradiction , he saith , that E. B. tells us in so many words , That the Scriptures are NO RULE or Guide of Faith , &c. for this he bids us see his Works , fol. 515. How now , bold Jeremy ! I have seen the place quoted by thee , and thou hast manifestly belyed Edw. Burroughs , to prove thy false Charge ; for Edwards Words in the place are thus , viz. The Scriptures are profitable , and were given forth to be read and to be fulfilled ; yet they are not THE RULE and Guide of Faith and Life unto the Saints ; but the SPIRIT of God , that gave forth the Scriptures , that is THE RULE and Guide , Teacher and Leader into all Truth : See also his following words in the next Clause , affirming , That the Scriptures are the Words of God ; that the Spirit of God is THE RULE of Faith and Life to the Saints ; that men ought to search the Scriptures , and believe what is therein written , &c. See now Jeremy , that Edward Burroughs his words are not as thou citest them , that the Scriptures are NO RULE , but that they are not THE RULE and Guide of Faith and Life unto the Saints , but the Spirit ; and yet the Scriptures to be Searched , Read and Fulfilled : so that he denyes them not , but plainly implyes them to be A RULE , but not THE RULE , that is , not the most Eminent or Highest Rule , but the Spirit : And how doth this contradict George Keith's saying , That we own the Scriptures as a Secundary Rule ? which also implies a primary or Principal Rule , to wit , the Holy Spirit , as well as E. B. doth in his words before . For my part , I cannot understand any more Contradiction between saying , The Scriptures are a Secundary Rule , and yet not THE RULE and Guide of Faith and Life unto the Saints , then there is between saying , Jeremy Ives is a Baptist - Preacher , and yet not the principal Preacher among them ; or between Jeremy Ives's being a Man , and yet not the Chief ( or Best ) of Men ; though I confess this too mean an Instance for the Subject before , but only somewhat to illustrate the Distinction . I was unwilling to have charged Jeremy with Forgery ( from the Place he quotes ) in saying , that E. B. tells us in so many words , that the Scriptures are NO Rule : But now upon Enquiry and Search into his Falshood herein , I am satisfied that I should do him no Wrong to charge It upon him , and let the Place quoted by him in E. B's Works determine it . Again , I find no Inconsistency between William Smith's confessing Christ and the Spirit of God to be the Rule * for trying Spirits , searching the Heart , and not the Scriptures ( yet confessing them to be of great Service ) and G. K.'s owning the Scriptures for a Secundary Rule , that Christ should be preferred before and above the Scriptures , both as to trying and discovering , and yet they serviceable in their place , as Christ opens the Understanding in them , can be no Opposition . But Jeremy objects , That the Quakers deny the Scriptures to be a Rule of Faith and Practice , comprehensive of the whole Duty of Man. 1. That they are so comprehensive as declaring the whole Duty of Man , respecting Faith and Practice ( as to the Sum and Substance thereof , respecting Man's Salvation ) I know none of us deny : But that they are not that Manifesting Rule of every particular Act of Faith and Obedience that God may require respectively , I think this Opposer cannot deny ; but that he hath granted thus much at sundry Discourses , as with respect to such Prophets and Messengers , as God might , for ought he knew , raise up in these dayes , and peculiarly commissionate and send forth with extraordinary Messages to particular Places and Peoples , in which God only ( by his Spirit ) is their great Rule and Guide . 2. And so God is in discovering to Man his inward Estate and Condition , even the Thoughts and Inclinations of his Heart , with all his Particular Actions . But sayes Jer. Ives , They pretend that the Spirit is the Rule , when they give no more Evidence of it then Mahomet or Muggleton . But this is manifest Reproach and Falshood : We give as much Evidence , both in Doctrine and Conversation , as is necessary to evince our Christianity ; And as Jeremy cannot disprove , nor doth he appear to be a Man of that Spiritual Mind and Judgment , as to know what Evidence we have given , or what Evidence we can give , his Comparison is gross and impious ; and Neither It , nor his bare Charge ( nor yet his calling upon us to produce an Evidence of the Spirit ) shall serve his turn to prove us either No Christians or Impostors . Another Condition for a Meeting is , That Jeremy prove himself that Christian , or else he is unfit to prove another No Christian : To this he saith , But is not this pretty ? As they define a Christian , there is no Christian but themselves ; and when I have proved myself a Christian , which by Interpretation is a Quaker , then I think the Question will be out of Question . To this I reply : I must needs look upon this as a very sorry Shift ; for , but in the very Condition before he is told , That before he enters upon proving us No Christians , he would tell us what a True Christian is , or we go by no Standard . See now here , how plainly this provides , first , for an Agreement upon the Definition of a True Christian , even such , as both Ieremy and the Quakers might agree upon : Is it not reasonable , that the Terms of a Proposition , or Matter in Question , should be explained and agreed upon in all Controversies ? and also reasonable , that when it is agreed what a True Christian is , that Jeremy should prove himself one before he be admitted to prove others none ? And did the Quakers herein propose either to be the sole Judges , who is a True Christian ? or have they hereby demerited this man's Sleight and Derision he thus taunteth them with ? viz. Would it not make one smile to see the sad Shifts the Poor Men are put to ? And what sad Shifts ? What! to agree upon the Definition of a Christian , as a Standard to go by ; and then for Jeremy to prove himself that Christian first ? else , What Credit can his Attempts be of , while he doth not prosecute others as a Christian , or Partaker of Christianity himself ; Seeing he has so hideously charg'd others with being no Christians ? And further ; It is not only the Quakers , but many others , that look upon Jer. Ives to be no True Christian , or worthy to bear that Name , or undertake in the Behalf of all Christians , to prove the Quakers none , as he promiseth , to produce a Deputation from the Baptists , if he can obtain it . Well , I 'le assure him , if he doth , we will take it for granted , that the Baptists make him their great Agent , and we will look upon their Cause as highly concerned in him , and so far resigned to him ; let him do what he can to maintain it , we are not at all doubtful on our parts of a good Iss●e for the Truth . And seeing Jeremy pretendeth his Endeavours for such a Deputation from the Baptists , shall be to leave us naked of all Excuse ; we expect that it shall not be to evade those Conditions before proposed by William Penn , in his Paper aga●nst Jeremy Ives his Challenge ; otherwise , if he should procure it to evade and shuffle off our Proceeding on those Conditions , we shall but look upon it as a Flam , and a vapouring Colour , and Diversion , like his Interposing and Vaunting Challenge , tending to Divert or keep us off from the Pursuance of our Charge against his Brother Tho. Hicks , whom with his Abettors we charge with being guilty of Forgery , Slanders , &c. He hath a Fling at S. Eccles , charging him , that he saith of G. Fox , That it may be said of him , as it was said of Christ , that the World was made by him , though the World knew him not ; and then addeth , Is not this a rare Christian ? p. 15. Unto which I must tell Jeremy , That in my Understanding he hath both unfairly cited and interpreted S. E. in this Matter ; for if so be that he could say or intend , that The World was made by him , did relate to G. Fox as well as to Christ , then I must confess with Jeremy , that he was more fit for Bedlam then otherwise : But if he alludes only to The World knew him no : ( which related to Christ ) that so it may be said of this True Prophet , G. F. ( as S. E's sense ) then I cannot see why Ieremy Ives should so deride him , although he might have better and more safely worded his Intention : yet it is Uncharitable to reflect upon a Man's Christianity for a little Failer in Syntax , * which can only be imputed to S. E. in this Matter , according to the Law of Charity ; let him speak for himself , see our Friends Book , entituled , Judas and the Jews , p. 75. viz. I did not say , nor did I ever believe , that the World was made by G. F. but by Christ , who was in the World , and the World knew him not ; so I say , it may be said of G. F. the World knows him not , though he be in the World , as was said of Christ , He was in the World , though not of the World , and the World knew him not ; and he said of his Followers , Ye are not of the World , as I am not of the World , Jo. 17. 16. and I have chosen you out of the World , Jo. 15. 19. See here how plainly S. E. hath signified his Intention in this Matter : And what but Prejudice and Enmity can otherwise construe his words ? Finally , be it remembred , that Ieremy's Charge , that makes such a Hideous Noise , viz. That our Ministers are Impostors , and Men of Lying Spirits , did proceed from his Uncharitableness , or at least , his Breach of the Laws of Good Manners , according to his own Observation , pag. 5. where he hath promised , Not to break the Laws of Good Manners , to call our Friends Papers Lyes , and Forgeries : So that herein he standeth a Self condemned Person , not only breaking the Laws of Good Manners , according to his own Confession , but pursuing for a further Breach thereof ; in which he also hath bespoken himself to be No Christian , condemning that in others which he allows in himself ; as is fully prov'd before against him . To his POSTSCRIPT . First , For Idle and Ridiculous Opinions and Practices , as he would charge upon us in general : I do not yet find that he hath found them , in such Books and Persons as the Quakers declaredly own , as his words are ; that Work is yet to do for ought I see . Secondly , Suppose there were any Absurd Opinions contained in any Book or Books , said to be published in the Quakers Names and Behalf , if they have not publickly declared against them , I deny that their Silence herein may reasonably pass for Consent and Approbation , as Jeremy concludes ; for its possible there may be Books said to be published in the Quakers Names and Behalf , which few , if any of the Quakers have ever read ; and it were Unreasonable to charge those things upon them , or upon the whole Body of them , which they have had no hand in , nor been made privy to ; neither would Jeremy Ives or his Brethren be so served . Besides there may be Books writ on the Behalf of a People by indifferent Persons , which are not wholely to be condemned , or publickly declared against for some particular Faults or Escapes where the Intent of the Writer was honest , and the greatest Part or Substance of the Matter serious and true . Thirdly Our Adversary asks , Why do not the Body of the Quakers meet together and agree to publish an Index Expurgatorious , to clear themselves of such Books they do not own ; otherwise it will not be their Private Apologizing for themselves , when their Credit lies at stake , to say , they do not own this and the other Book , that will pass for Excuses among Wise Men. 1. I must confess , if he had good Ground for this Proposition , there seems to be some Reason in it more then he has shewn before : But I would ask this Law-Maker , if he doth really look upon the Body of the Quakers to be attained to so much of sound Judgment and Understanding , as here he seems to imply , that is as able to clear themselves of such Books & Things , as they are liable to be called in question for , or as are unsound ? 2. His granting that there are such Books as we do not own ( and which tend to the Hazard of our Credit , if we do not publish an Index to clear our selves thereof : This implys , that we have a Judgment to clear our selves , and that so far the Light or Truth is risen amongst us , as not to own those things which may indanger our Credit ; and then he should not charge us with those things , unless we did own them . Again , As we do not reckon our selves bound so far to take Cognizance of every Book or Paper , so as to read all over that hath been writ by all that have gone under the Name Quakers ; so neither do we know Occasion to write such an Index as Ier●my prescribes , against any of our Friends Books that are declaredly owned by us . For those Opinions and Practices that are generally owned by us , we stand to maintain , as neither being Idle nor Ridiculous , but Serious and Sound , agreeable to the holy Scriptures , and consistent with Christianity , and value not all the Gain-sayings of our Adversaries : But if any Practice or Signal Thing extraordinary be laid upon any one Particular among us , we impose it not upon others ; and such must not stand or fall to Man's Judgment , but are accountable to God for what they do ; For to Man's Judgment and Earthly Wisdom many things extraordinary or peculiar , which were required of God's Prophets , might seem both Idle & Ridiculous , and those Prophets themselves seem Fools and Mad Men , as they were accounted of old . But further , seeing Ieremy Ives has before prescribed such a Method , as the Body of the Quakers to meet together , and agree to publ●sh an Index Expurgatorious , &c. They that prescribe Rules , should be regular themselves ; and they that make Laws should observe and keep Laws . Why do not the Baptists ( who deem themselves Christians and Us none ) begin , and shew Us such an Example , as he hath prescribed ? since there are divers Opinions Contradictory one to another in the Baptists Books , both whereof cannot be true ; as between the Predestinarian ▪ Principle and the Arminian ( so called ) or between an absolute Predestination of particular Persons to Salvation or Damnation from Eternity , and the General Grace of God , and Redemption in Christ for all men ; And between the Impossibility of Believers falling from Grace , and the Possibility thereof , with divers other things , about which the Baptists differ among themselves . Why do not the Body of the Baptists meet together , & agree first about their own Principles , and then lish a Declaration against those Opinion ▪ s which may appear inconsistent with Christianity , Truth and Reason , and an Index Expurgatorious to clear themselves of all such Baptists Books as are writ to maintain such an Exploded Opinion , that People may no longer be deceived thereby ? otherwise , if they refuse this Proposition , begun by Jeremy , we may accordingly take the Baptists Silence herein , to pass for Consent and Approbation of all the Baptists Books , which the Body of Baptists have not publickly declared against : And then from hence I charge Jer. Ives and his Brethren , with giving their Consent and Approbation to their Brother Thomas Hicks his Three Fictitious Dialogues , and all the Absurdities , Contradictions , Forgeries and Abuses therein contain'd , so long as they are silent , and do not write an Index Expurgatorious , to clear themselves thereof ; and so of all the rest of the Baptists Books , that contain in them both Idle , Ridiculous and Contradictory Opinions . Further , Jeremy accuseth us with Enthusiastick-Principles , and new Articles of Faith and Practice frequently enjoyned by Immediate Inspiration . 1st , What he means by the Word Enthusiastick or Enthusiasts , which disdainfully he casts upon us , he seems to intimate , that it●● such as pretend Revelation from Heaven , and Immediate Inspiration for their Rule : It seems he pretends to neither , but rather derides thereat , like the Scoffers of the Times : And how came he to get this word Enthusiast ? He should withal have told us its proper Definition , and then it would have appeared more plainly in what Sense he useth it . But I would ask him , if the Baptists at their first coming forth were not counted Enthusiasts by their Persecutors , when they profest the Help of the Spirit , or Immediate In piration in their Praying and Preaching , and the Sufficiency of the Spirit 's Teaching , as Samuel How , William Kiffin , and many others did formerly ? And how many of them did preach up and esteem the Inward Work of the Spirit and Grace of God in the Heart ? which , it seems Jeremy , thou hast either had very little Experience of , or else art greatly apostatized , and become a Hard-hearted Mocker at the Acknowledgment of Immediate Inspiration , which Principle thou wilt not confute by calling us Idle Enthusiasts . 2. It s an idle Untruth in thee to accuse us with frequently enjoyning New Articles of Faith and Practice , either by Immediate Inspiration or Pretence thereof ; neither hast thou shewn us what those Articles are , that thou sayest are thus frequently enjoyned ? Again , I cannot but observe how Senselesly and Atheistically thou talkest , in concluding , That if a man pretends a Revelation from Heaven , or Immediate Inspiration for a Practice that 's Absurd , the Quakers cannot Reprove him by Immediate Inspiration , because he pretends to that for his Practice as well as they . It seems Immediate Inspiration is of a very little Esteem with thee , and of as little Use with thee : If because some falsly pretend it for that which is Absurd , others cannot thereby Reprove him for it ; at this rate of Arguing the True Prophets Mouthes should have been stopt from Reproving the False , because they pretended the same the True did , and could say , Thus saith the Lord , &c. And likewise the True Apostles should not have Reproved the False , because they pretended the same thing doubtless , when they transform'd themselves as the Ministers of Christ. But if by Immediate Inspiration Absurd or Evil Actions cannot be reproved where the same is but pretended , then farewel all true Christianity , true Savour , true Sence and Judgment . But doth not the Spirit of God search all things , and the Spiritual Man judge all things ? Surely if this man did really own that there 's any such thing in being now , as either Revelation from Heaven , or Immediate Inspiration , or that there is a True God , and that He is Known , he durst not talk at this idle sleighting rate , as he doth , about Immediate Inspiration , as not a sufficient Rule to reprove Absurdities , where It can but be pretended for them . But yet a little before he grants a super-natural Evidence , that if we can give some super-natural Evidence why we should be received , as namely , in writing against the absurd Opinions of such as pretend they are revealed to them ; but what Super-natural Evidence this is that he means , he tells us not , while he does not own the Sufficiency of Immediate Inspiration to reprove absurd or evil Practices & Opinions by : for if a supernatural Evidence doth not attend Immediate Inspiration , or Revelation from Heaven , it is no where to be found ; then it follows , the Spirit is insufficient to evidence it self , or it is not Self evidencing , and such Doctrine as this will at length lead some to be such Fools and Atheists as to say in their Hearts , There is No God : But I tell this Adversary to Immediate Inspiration , That the Spirit of God can no more be without a super-natural Evidence , then the Sun can be without its Light ; God has given an Universal Evidence thereof by his Light in all men's Consciences , which answers to the Spirit 's Testimony and Ministry in the Ministers of the Spirit , which men may evidently see , if they close not their Eyes , or harden not their Hearts to cause their own Stumbling and Overthrow . In order to a manifest Decision of the chief Matters in Controversie , I desire Jez . Ives , or any of his Brethren for him , to give a plain and ingenuous Answer to these Questions , distinctly . I. Whether Immediate Inspiration and Revelation from Heaven , are in Being in the True Church in these dayes , yea , or nay ? II. Whether Immediate Inspiration be not necessary to the being of a True Christian or Jew inward ? III. What super-natural Evidence or necessary Proof doth J. I. require of any ones having Immediate Inspiration from God ? IV. Whether any one be fit to try ( or judge of ) a Super-natural Evidence , or Immediate Inspiration in another , but such a one as doth acknowledge and partake of immediate Inspiration in himself ? V. Whether he that undertakes to prove others No Christians , ought not to be a True Christian , and first to approve himself such a one upon a true and undeniable Definition of a True Christian ? [ Thou Hypocrite , first cast out the Beam out of thine own Eye , &c. ] VI. What is the true and proper Signification and Discrimination of Enthusiast and Impostor ? and so the real Derivation of Enthusiasm and Imposture ? And whether there be not a plain Difference in the Nature of the Words ? For Words and Terms , where either difficult or doubtful , must be explaind before Matters can be clearly discussed thereupon . VII . Whether it be not an Undervaluing of immediate Inspiration , for any to hold , That thereby men cannot Reprove an Absurd Opinion or Practice in such as pretend a Revelation from Heaven for it ? VIII . Whether the Apostles and primitive Christians were oblieged to produce an Evidence of their Faith and Practice by Inspiration at the Demand of their Enemies , or only when God call'd them thereunto ? IX . Whether to require an Evidence for our Faith by immediate Inspiration be not all one as to put us upon proving our selves Christians , or equivalent thereto ? X. Whether it be proper or reasonable for one that has charged us with being Impostors and Men of Lying Spirits , and promised to prove it , insteed thereof to require a Proof or Evidence from us of our being immediately or divinely inspired ; and if we do not at his Demand produce such Evidence as he requireth , to conclude us Impostors ? XI . And how does Jeremy Ives prove his Call to Dip or Plunge People in Water ? Or what Evidence can he produce for His particular Call thereto ? XII . And whether he does profess any Immediate Inspiration and Revelation from Heaven for his Dipping People ? if he doth , what super natural Evidence can he produce for it ? if he doth not , whether he may not be deemed an Impostor therein ? XIII . Whether divers of the Baptist-Preachers have not heretofore imposed their Water-Bapitsm as Gospel , or as a thing necessary to Salvation , and so to the being of a Christian and Church of Christ , threatning & affrighting many simple People into Water upon pain of Damnation or the Curse ; some by telling them , They must Dip or Damn ? XIV . Whether the Baptists are of the same Opinion still , That their Water-Baptism or Dipping is Gospel , necessary to Salvation , or to be practised upon pain of Damnation ? XV. And how proves Jeremy Ives , that the One Baptism ( spoaken of Ephes. 4. ) is that of Water ? And whether his Instance of Lords many for divers Baptisms , as of Water , & Affliction , and the Holy Ghost , were a pertinent and meet Instance and Comparison , as between One Lord Jesus , and but One proper Baptism , to wit , that of Water , and between the Lords many & divers Baptisms , to wit , of Afflictions , and the Holy Ghost ? see his Quakers Quaking , p. 38. XVI . And what Call , Gospel-Rule , or Precept , have Baptists for Night Dipping , and Fleeing or Absenting from Meetings in Times of Persecution ? And whether their envious Invectives and abusive Pamphlets , now in Times of Peace against their Neighbours , do not proceed from the same cowardly Spirit , which acted them in Times of Suffering ? XVII . After the Baptists have try'd their Strength , made Enquiry of Apostates , and searched Books and Courts , to pick out Occasions against us , to render us as Vile as they can , and not only no Christians , but inconsistent with Government , and all this , if possible , to destroy us ; May they not justly expect , that their Mischief will return upon their own Heads , and that they will fall into the Pit which they dig for others . XVIII . If they persist in this their course of Envy against us , whether they may not , as men conscious , justly expect a publick Reprehension ; we having Occasion sufficient out of their own Books and former Proceedings , to exhibit a History of Anabaptists , both with relation to Religion and Government ? For our parts , we value not their Envy , nor the Worst they can do , but are at Defiance with it ; knowing also that Christian-Life and Spirit , that shall out-live their inveterate Enmity , who are Confederates a gainst us ; and we shall therein be further manifest , and Encrease , but they shall Decrease . XIX . I would further ask , if Jer Ives and his Brethren do not own them to be Christians whom they Baptize ? XX. And what Evidence of their Faith or Christianity do those their Baptiz'd Believers produce ? Answer these . I have taken Occasion of late Time to take Notice of Jeremy Ives's former Envy , Confusion , Ignorance and Abuse , that he has shewn against the People call'd Quakers in his two Books ; the one entituled , The Quakers Quaking , printed in the Year 1656. and the other entituled , Ianocency above Impudency , printed 1656. which I had a mind to have given the Reader some Hints of , but for Brevity's sake I reserve them to a further Opportunity , if Occasion be given me ; Though I am rather desirous , that our Daring Opposer may by the Light of Christ consider his Wayes , and Repent of his Evil , then be concerned in Contests with him : For , God knows , I contend not for Contention , but for Truth 's sake . Reader , If that Passage in the 8th Page of this Treatise touching Jer. Ives his calling Arthur Cook , Pittiful Fool , and Knave , and Loggerhead , on the Exchange , should be doubted of ; This may inform , that I have several Certificates thereof , under the hands of credible Persons . G. W. Pag. 12 lin 21. for of Faith read of our Faith. p. 16. l. 24. r. a Meeting again . pag. 23. l. 12. f. had 1. hath . p 30. l. 12 r. saith , that now God is . pag. 32. lin . 14. f his r is . p. 36. l. 7. r. confound and break . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65887-e150 ‖ E. B. being really satisfied th●y could convert no real Quaker to the Church of Rome. 1 Kings 18. * As in his Primer , pag. 10 , 11 , 12. * As [ the World knew him not ] should only be the Antecedent to [ so it may be said of this true Prophet , G. F. ] and not that the World was made by him . 
A65889	----	This is an epistle for the remnant of Friends, and chosen of God whom he hath yet preserved to bear their testimony in and about the city of London, to whom, this is a testimony of the dear love, and tender care which flowes forth, and is extended towards them, and all tender hearts who are concerned in the like sufferings, temptaons [sic], and tryals / from their faithful friend and servant in the Lord, G. Whithead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1665 Approx. 25 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65889 Wing W1963 ESTC R20330 12292141 ocm 12292141 58918 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- England -- London. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-04 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-04 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion This is an EPISTLE FOR THE Remnant of Friends , AND Chosen of God , WHOM He hath yet preserved to bear their Testimony in and about the City OF LONDON ; TO WHOM , This is a Testimony of the dear Love , and tender care which flowes forth , and is extended towards them , and all tender hearts who are concerned in the like Sufferings , Temptaons , and Tryals . From their faithful Friend and Servant in the Lord , G. WHITHEAD . Printed in the Year 1665. This is an Epistle for the Remnant of Friends , and Chosen of God , whom he hath yet preserved to bear their Testimony in and about the City of London , &c. O My dearly Beloved Friends , Brethren and Sisters , among whom my Soul hath travelled and suffered for the Afflicted's sake , and whose burthens and tryals are still with me in Spirit , as also the Love , Tenderness , care , and freeness of Spirit that has appeared among you towards the afflicted and harmless sufferers ; who have been led and driven as sheep to the slaughter for the witness of Jesus , and of a good Conscience . Oh , dear hearts feel my life and tender bowels towards you all in the spirit and unity of true love and faith of the Elect seed , wherein life and dominion is felt , by all that wait patiently upon the Lord in true subjection to his eternal Power and Councel in all the Exercises , tryals and hardships that the Righteous Seed is beset withal , that being thorowly tried it may come forth as Gold thorowly refined ; and the Righteous who are of this Seed may through all these things ) go on in their way , and the Innocent and clean in heart may grow stronger and stronger in the Lord , that Truth and Righteousness may for ever shine forth both among you and all his Elect to the praise of his Name , who both beholds , feels , and bears the sufferings of his People , in his long suffering and patience , wherein the spirits of his Chosen ones are exercised , and by which they shall overcome , and be more then Conquerours , where neither calamities , distresses , life nor death shall ever be able to separate from that love , vertue , life and glory revealed and made manifest in the faithful . And my dear hearts , the glory and weight of Gods Righteous Testimony of life and Salvation , being in his light truly and evidently manifested in and among you ; you have great cause for ever to prize his love and glorifie his Name , and stick close to him therein , what ever perils , trials , oppositions , sufferings , or temptations you meet withal , and to be of a constant spirit , and upright mind in the unchangable truth to the Lord God of life , in whom your preservation and safety stands , knowing that no weight of affliction or suffering is comparable to the weight of Eternal life and Salvation , which you are called unto , through the Glorious appearance of God's power and Gospel of peace and Salvation ; for the sence and enjoyment thereof doth certainly out-ballance and far exceed all the sufferings and trials of the present time though they are very many and deep . And so none of you to be discouraged or shaken in mind at things of this nature , nor because of the seeming advantage or occasion that the wicked or rebellious and envious spirits , ( or such as are prejudiced ) do take against us because of that common Calamity and late Mortality which has befallen many of the Righteous as well as the Unrighteous ( as to the outward man ) in this time of such a great and universal calamity and sore distress as has been upon that City ; for God's Testimony and glory shines and will shine , and break through all these clouds of afflictions , sufferings , and reproaches which the Habitation of the Righteous hath been and is encompassed with ; yea the faithfulness , innocency and uprightness of many innocent Lambs in and about that City is never to be forgotten , which so greatly did appear and shine forth in their faithfully standing to their Testimony , and keeping to the Truth in tenderness of Conscience and sincerity towards God , who hath called us to meet together in his fear , and in his everlasting name and power , and out of a real respect to his Glory and righteous cause which is concern'd in the obedience of his people both in that and all other duties or acts of obedience required by him whose obedience and spiritual worship many have not denyed nor declined , neither under the trials which have proceeded from men or under those which came from God , but whether they have been liable to fall into the hands of God or men for the proofe of their faith , they have not departed from him , who makes up his Jewels through trials and tribulations in all which his Fatherly care is felt , and his tender mercy and compassion is seen towards his own as to his own peculiar Off-spring and tender babes , sons and faithful servants whom he loves , and therefore chastiseth and tryeth not in anger and fury , but in love , fatherly care and pitty , so that whose eyes are open in the true light , and in a right mind and spirit have thoroughly weighed the state of the suffering seed amongst us which is in the faith of Abraham brought forth in the Immortal power of an endless life , considering the faithfulness and godly sincerity of a Remnaut whose life hath testified for God herein , both in doing good and suffering for well doing , such who have thus weighed this suffering state do plainly see that neither Satan nor his Instruments have any real advantage against any of the Remnant of this Seed , through any of these trials or sufferings either from the hands of God or men since that many have kept their Integrity to the last , and have imbraced their trials and afflictions in Gods tender love ; and have had such unity therewith that they have been far from either blaspheming or cursing God as the wicked many times have done , and will do when Plagues , woes , torments , and pains seize upon them , but neither Satan nor his Instruments have their evil designs or ends answered , or fulfilled herein against the Righteous as the Devil would have had against Job under his affliction when he sought to make him curse God to his face , so that the Truth of our God and innocency of his people ( who know the Redemption of the Soul which is pretious ) doth and shall come over both Men and Devils , in as much as the Truth is over the Devil himself , ( who hath the power of death and darkness ) even to the confounding and stoping their mouths that they all who are acted by the power and spirit of enmity and darkness may be convicted , confounded , and left without excuse before the Lord God , who will be known to be clear when he judges . Yea blessed for ever be the name of our God who hath given us strength and courage to stand in an evil day over Hell and Death , and the Devil with all his fiery darts and fierce assaults against the Righteous , and that the Lord hath yet spared , and will spare a Remnant to bear his mark and name upon Earth , and to hold forth a living Testimony for his glory and praise amongst the sons of Men , for which many have not loved their lives unto death , but have offered up their lives as divers manifestly did in that City the last Summer when such a sore Visi●ation and Calamity was upon that place , wherein divers offered up life and all for the truth , and their afflicted Brethren and Sisters , for whose sakes my soul has often been greatly bowed down and afflicted , and my bowels have earned for them , and my Inwards were so moved with compassion and brokenness of spirit that neither life it self nor any outward privilege did seem too dear to me to resign or offer up for their sakes . And though when the Sickness was so hot in that City and Prisons , some of the Persecutors at that time appeared cruel , wicked and abominable against the Innocent to destroy them in these Pestilential places of Confinement , where both there , and also on Shipboard ( wherein so many were confined for Banishment ) many innocent Lambs laid down their lives for the witness of a good Conscience : And though the wicked may for a time in their wickedness and mischievous minds be lifted up against us to insult over us because of these our deep trials , and the death of so many innocent persons either in the Prisons , on Shipboard , or out of Prisons ; yet their being so elevated and hardened against us ( who are the People of the Lord ) does but the more make for , and further their own destruction , ruine and misery as often I have said and been sensible , and their Plague torment , and calamity ( which slumbers not ) is greater and more sad then many's that have died under that common Calamity of the Pestilence , by which many have been removed both of good and bad , which thing those that are yet alive and remain in their sins without taking warning thereby , it will prove the greatest Plague and Judgment against such who are the least considerate & sensible of the hand of the Lord in it , or of their states and conditions ; for as to this particular calamity or sickness , 't is ( in it self ) not the worst of Judgments which God hath in store for a sinful , provoking , rebellious people or Nation , and Gods controversie is not yet ended in this Nation , nor the viols of his displeasure emptied upon his enemies and persecutors of his Seed . And oh ! to consider what a sore & heavy Judgment is it , & what misery does it presage to many in this Nation that so many innocent or Righteous persons in it should be taken away as those whom the world are not worthy of , but such are taken away from the evil to come , both from future calamities , and set in safety for ever from them that have puffed at them , and made a prey upon them in their life time . And as for us that yet remain , who fear the Lord , and stick close to him always , eyeing and seting him before us in the greatest of our perils and sufferings , we know his goodness endures for ever , though the mighty and exalted of the Earth boast and insult ( for a time ) over us , and the more the suffering is , the greater is the consolation and glory to them that continue faithful to the end . And what ever conclusions are brought forth against us either by wicked men , or any who in prejudice turn against us and take occasion from this Mortality ( which has come upon so many Friends in the time of this great Calamity ) as if it were in Gods wrath , indignation or fury against the body of Friends , or any of us who are come to the Communion of the body of Christ ( which we are Members of ) or if any that profess the name of the Lord be so clouded , byassed and prejudiced in their minds as to conclude this a fulfilling of some such Prophecies of wrath and indignation against Friends ; such spirits and evil tidings are plainly seen , and they to be presumptuous and no Prophets sent of the Lord , and therefore cannot make us afraid , who confide in the name of our God , and in that living faith wherein our unity and victory stands , our innocent life stands over them in true Judgment against all that which among some has crept in at unawares to create devisions & enmity against the faithful servants or people of God where 't is received in any unstable or brickle spirits ; And therefore my soul saith , the Lord rebuke thee oh Satan ! who enviest the heritage of God , why doest thou subtlely present thy self amongst the sons of God to trouble the innocent ? endeavouring with thy fiery darts and temptations of this nature to turn them against their Maker ? and why doest thou subtlely make use of Instruments in this thy wicked work to effect thy treacherous designs ? The Lord will rebuke thee by his mighty power ; for we are sure that where Gods faithful Witness in the Conscience is owned which ought to be judge in the case , and must deside the Controversie : We know that does bear witness with us and for us , and to the justification of all the Faithful amongst us who are really of Us , and belong to the seed of Election ; and therefore , will not go out from us , who abide in the truth of God which changes not , being of the seed of Jacob , and off-spring of Israel after the Spirit ( which is beyond revolting Israel after the flesh ) for herein are we heirs of promise , and then who shall condemn , conclude , or prophesie wrath where God justifies , and not bring condemnation upon themselves ? for that Gods love was felt by many under that trial and Visitation which many died in , about that City , and many were sensible of Gods love and favour till the very last . And the life , peace , satisfaction and comfort that many innocent Friends felt , and that some express and signified on their Deathbeds ; I am a living Witness of , for them : Having at some times [ as the Lord hath drawn me in his Love ] been present with many of them when they were very low in the outward Man , and with divers when upon their Deathbeds , both in that destructive place of Newgate , and some other places : Yea , when sorrow and sadness has seized upon my spirit , and my heart and soul has been pierc'd and wounded when I have seen the sad sufferings of so many harmless Lambes when they were on their sick beds in these noysome holes and Prisons : Yet at the same time having had a deep sence and knowledge of the Lords love and care to them in that condition , and having truly felt his life and power stirring amongst them : This , on the other hand has refresht and revived my spirit , knowing that Christ their Salvation and Redemption was manifest to and in them , though in that suffering state , as they have followed and obeyed him through sufferings and tribulations , and so with such to live was Christ in that state and to die was gain ; it being through death that the Lord had appointed the final deliverance of many from the cruelties and rod of their Oppressors , and so from the miseries and evils to come . And also the faithfulness ; uprightness , and innocency of divers of those that were taken away , and their constancy of Spirit to the Lord , and his living truth , and their unfeigned love to the Brethren , ( by the which , 't was evident they had passed from death to life ) and what a living and faithful Testimony they bear for the Lord in their life time , being well known and manifest amongst us , their Memorial is truly precious to us , and never to be forgotten ; and we are satisfied that they were found worthy for the Lord , and the World was not worthy of them . And besides , some whom God hath restored and raised up again , who yet remain alive with us , who were under the same trial and sickness , can testifie to Gods tender love to them ; and how freely they were therein by faith given up to the Lord under it in his love and favour ( which they partake of ) either to die or live as he should be pleased to dispose of them , knowing that some that were very dear to the Lord , even some of his choise Jewels and peculiar treasure were removed by it . So that I must say what I have seen and felt , that as to the state of faithful Friends in this case , some by faith according to the will of God were given up and desirous rather to die then live , and therein freely imbraced the outward affliction or calamity which was but for a moment in comparison ; knowing that to die would be a great advantage and gain to them , and that thereby they should be freed from future sufferings , burthens ; calamities and evils ; and their Spirits should acquiess and rest in everlasting peace , joy and triumph . And others by faith were simply and singly given up in the will of God to die , if he should so dispose of them , not in themselves expecting life or recovery , and yet in so being given up have come to be restored again to continue longer , bearing their Testimony amongst us , having known and felt that in the patience to resign to the w●ll of God in self-denial , abasement and humility in their affliction and trial ; was most consistant with their peace . And again , some others of us by faith according to the will of God , have been kept over the distemper and hitherto preserved alive ; not for any respect that we may assume to our selves in the matter , nor for any reason ( as I know ) that can be shewn for us more then for some innocent persons that were taken away , but that the Lord had a respect to his own glory and further service for himself which he had for us to do and be imployed in , and that he will preserve a Remnant as he hath determined to bear his Name and hold forth his Testimony amongst men in their innocent lives and holy Conversations ; so as the glory and praise we give to the Lord , desiring all of us may faithfully serve him in Godly fear and true humility the days we have to sojourn here , that we all may ever be to his praise , in whose hand we are whether we live or die , for he makes all things to work together for good to them that love him , who are not offended in him in any of their tribulations , or temptations , when the hour of temptation is upon all flesh to try them that dwell upon the face of the earth ; he that has committed unto us the word of his patience who is Israel's Keeper is our preserver , support and refuge thorough all these things , and he has made us co-workers together in one and the same spirit of faith and life , wherein he is obeyed and submitted to by his faithful people and servants in their several states , trials and exercises , and among whom the various effects and fruits of the same faith are seen and brought forth according to his will , who gives life and preservation . And now moreover if such as take advantage against us on this occasion aforesaid , ( whether they be open or secret smiters or enemies ) did either rightly or seriously come to weigh their conditions , and let Gods witness judge in the case , they have no cause to boast , glory or insult over us or against us , for that they are not their own Keepers , nor is their life continued by their own power , and how soon their time may be expired , and their judgment overtake them they know not , nor how soon their days may be cut asunder ; to be sure their condemnation slumbers not , who in the pride of their hearts and presumption of their spirits turn against the suffering seed of God under what profession and pretence soever , though under pretence of the name of the Lord or profession of the truth it self , and knowing also that many that were of their own spirit and principle have also been taken away under the same calamity , ( for it has extended to all sorts both holy and prophane ) they have cause to dread and fear before the Lord , and not to be high minded nor presumptuous , for the mouth of the boaster and exalted must be stopt , and all flesh and carnal reason is to be silent in this matter , for Gods power is over it all , and over that which has threatned or brought evil tidings against his Israel ; for we know the same spirit that turns against us , and watches for occasions , and prophecies our destruction , would have it come to pass , so to be reckoned a true Prophet , and that is the murtherer that kills the poor , the same that 's in our open enemies , and the same that was in Cain against his Brother , and he that is in this spirit or principle of enmity or prejudice , hath no eternal life abiding in him . O let this thing be publisht in the ears of Gods people , and let Friends feel my innocent intention and end herein ; having writ the more of this nature for prevention of the enemy's subtlety and temptations of this kind , that the tender and weak may not be ensnared thereby ; I knowing and having really seen how Satan besets such with temptations upon these deep trials , to undermine their hope and to beget unbelief and despair in the minds to turn them from truth , and how he makes use of his Instruments in the same way to effect his evil end against us , but the Lord will rebuke him and bruise him under the feet of his own anointed seed and faithful people . And now a common calamity or distemper as this which has brought such a great Mortality ( as it hath been appointed and permitted of the Lord ) has extended and opperated according to the spreading and contagious nature and property of it , to the bodies of both old and young , good and bad , nocent and innocent , yea to many that know not their right hand from the left ; but the iniquities and abominations of the wicked was the cause of Gods anger and displeasure herein , and the Original cause of this Calamity , the Creation being opprest under their wickedness , and the Earth defiled under the Inhabitants , which causeth the Heavens to frown upon the World , and the curse to go forth , and Blessings to be withheld from them , and the taking away of good and merciful men , and many innocent persons though it be in love to themselves , yet it is in judgment against the other who have brought innocent blood upon their own heads by their cruelties and persecution , and whose hearts are hardened and become cruel and implacable against Truth and Righteousness , and all them that walk therein , whose souls have been daily vexed and oppressed through the ungodly , and unchristian coversation of the wicked . And God who spared not his own Son , but delivered him to suffer and to be numbered among Transgressors both in life and death , and his soul to be an Offering for the Offences of many ; he also hath given many of his dear Children not only to believe , but also to suffer with his own Son who hath borne our griefs and sorrows , and with him he has suffered them to be reckoned and numbered among Transgressors both in their life and death , that his Followers might bear his reproaches and partake , of his sufferings , who made his Grave with the wicked and with the rich in his deaths , and was esteemed as smitten or plagued of God , though as to their own conditions it is and will be well with the Righteous for ever , having obtained witness thereof , and for their justification from the Lord God , by whose Righteous Witness it 's known and manifest in secret in Mens Consciences , where he visits in wrath , or distributes sorrows in his anger , and where he visits , tries , or chastises in love , favour , and tender mercy ; and this Witness discovers where the guilt of sin and disobedience is , where deceit , treachery , and revolting from truth is , which occasions terrors and fear of Death , and which incurs the anger and wrath of God upon the guilty therein , and also brings sufferings upon the tender & innocent , who knowing the guilt taken away and removed , every affliction and trial that such meet withal is sanctified to them through the tender love and favour of God wherewith their cup is mixed , which their implacable enemies and persecuters shall drink the dregs of without mixture ; now the difference herein of the two states and conditions of men is felt and discerned in the Invisible , by that which judgeth not by the sight of the eye or hearing of the ear , nor barely from the outward appearance of common afflictions ( which sometimes come alike upon all ) but in Righteousness and Truth that judgeth , and as it hath been said ( of old ) concerning the Righteous whose souls are in the hand of God , that in the sight of the unwise they seemed to die , and their departure is taken for misery , and their going from us to be utter destruction , but they are in peace ; for though they be punisht in the sight of Men , yet is their hope full of Immortality , and having been a little chastized , they shall be greatly rewarded , for God proved them and found them worthy for himself , as Gold in the Furnace hath he tryed them , and received them as a Burnt-offering , &c. Yea such are they who shall judge the Nations and have dominion over the people , whose Lord ( that takes care for his Elect ) shall reign for ever . Now my dear Friends and tender hearts commit your way to the Lord , and cast your burthen upon him , and he will bear you up , and sustain you by his own right hand of power ; and live in the Immortal Seed and spiritual Communion where life and peace is daily received , and your mutual Refreshment and Consolation stands , and wherein the Spirits of just Men are seen and felt , and the life of Gods faithful Servants and Martyrs , and such as have finisht their Testimony with joy and peace , is enjoyed even in this Spiritual Communion , which reaches beyond all Visibles , and is above all mortal and faiding Objects or things . So in the dear and tender Love of God , which dwells and lives in my heart towards you , and all the faithful every where , I commit you to him , in whom our help and deliverance is , and in the Kingdom of Christ's Patience , am Your Dear and Faithful Friend and Brother , G. W. Let This be read distinctly in the Life and Authority of God ( from whence it came ) among Friends , in , and about the City of London , and elsewhere , as any Friend are moved in the same Life . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65889-e60 Wisd. 3. 
A65890	----	The timorous reviler sleighted being a brief reprehension of a scornful pamphlet, styled, The second part of the Quakers Quibbles, subscribed by the name of Thomas Thompson, but (by some) suspected to be the author of the two pamphlets, the one entituled, The spirit of the Quakers tryed; the other, Controversie ended; with divers others against the people called Quakers. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1674 Approx. 24 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 7 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65890 Wing W1965 ESTC R220976 99832359 99832359 36832 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65890) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 36832) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2103:17) The timorous reviler sleighted being a brief reprehension of a scornful pamphlet, styled, The second part of the Quakers Quibbles, subscribed by the name of Thomas Thompson, but (by some) suspected to be the author of the two pamphlets, the one entituled, The spirit of the Quakers tryed; the other, Controversie ended; with divers others against the people called Quakers. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. Hedworth, Henry, attributed name. 8 p. s.n., [London : 1674] Caption title. Signed at end: G. W.; attributed to George Whitehead. Dated at end: London, the 27th of the 12th moneth, 1674. A reply to a pamphlet attributed to Thomas Thompson, but sometimes thought to be by Henry Hedworth, the author of the other two pamphlets named in the title. Copy has some print fade. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Thompson, Thomas. -- Second part of the Quakers quibbles -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-04 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-04 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Timorous Reviler SLEIGHTED : Being a Brief Reprehension of a Scornful Pamphlet , styled , The second Part of the Quakers Quibbles , subscribed by the Name of Thomas Thompson ; but ( by some ) suspected to be the Author of the Two Pamphlets , the one entituled , The Spirit of the Quakers Tryed ; the other , Controversie Ended ; with divers others against the People called QUAKERS . Shun Prophane and Vain Bablings , 2 Tim. 2. 16. THe Author's Account of himself , viz. I not pretending to Infallibility , my Opinion being still , so long as we are men in this Condition , humanum est errare , Q. Quib. 1st part , pag. 38. God keep me humble and little in my own Eyes still , to confess my Fallibility , whilst it pleases him we should be in this State and Condition , 2 part . p. 6. My Opinion is , Humanum est errare ; and that would have born me out , I honestly and ingenuously telling the World , that I pretended to no such Infallibility , as the Quakers do , p. 25. If unwillingly there should happen any Mistake , to be committed by me , as possibly there may be , considering the Weakness that all men are subject unto ( unless Quakers ) I should not be ashamed honestly to acknowledge it in Print , and beg their Excuse for it , pag. 81. Observ. That his Scurrilous and Abusive Pamphlets against the Quakers , are Effects , not only of his Fallibility , but of his Envy also to us , is evident ; but whether he will be as good as his word ( or perform his Pretension ) before , as to acknowledge any of his Mistakes in Print , the Sequel will try him ; which to do , would not be so Disgraceful to him , as to lie under the Guilt of manifest Perversions , Lyes and Slanders , which he is chargeable with in much more then this Tract takes notice of . To begin with him : Touching the Two Passages he seems to take great Advantage upon in his Epistle and much of his Pamphlet ; I begin with , and state the first as followeth . 1st , Whereas to convince him of W. Penn's or our Christianity , he proposed the Gift of Tongues immediately inspired , and such Mighty Signs as were in the Church in the Apostles dayes for Evidence . Upon this I queried thus , viz. And what if God will not bestow such Gifts and Signs now , must we therefore be no Christians ? Qua. Plainness , p. 14. He concludes , That this Interrogation absolutely destroyes my own Cause , and answers my self in all I writ , Argumentum ad hominem : and why so ? He puts the Case to Immediate Revelation from God , to Divine Inspiration , to being sent and commissionated by God , and called by the Spirit to Prophesie and Preach the Gospel , as the Apostles were , and to the Light Within , which the Quakers so much talk of , and to the Doctrine of Infallibility , and to the Gift of Discerning of Spirits . From all which he infers , What if God will not bestow such Gifts now , must we therefore be no Christians ? Epist. p. 2. The ingenuous and impartial Reader may easily suppose how he hath mannaged the rest of his Controversie by this Beginning : How plain and evident is his Perversion and Fallacy in this his Retorsion , and how Unchristian : as for instance , from my implying by way of Interrogation , that we might be Christians , though we had not the Gift of Tongues , Mighty Signs , or Outward Miracles ( that were peculiar to some Christians and Ministers in the Apostles dayes ) he infers the same putting the Case that the Dispute be about Immediate Revelation , and so to Divine Inspiration , the Light Within , &c. supposing , that if God will not bestow these upon us now ( any more then the other ) are we therefore no Christians ? ( saith he ) as if we may as well be Christians without Immediate Revelation , Divine Inspiration , &c. as without the Gift of Tongues ; and he would make my Question be speak the same of the one as well as the other , to give away my Cause : Oh Injustice ! Apparent Partiality and False Construction put upon my words , never spoaken nor intended by me [ as my Principle ] for the Gift of Tongues and Working of Miracles were only peculiar to some in the primitive Church , 1 Cor. 12. Whereas a Manifestation of the Spirit was given to every man to profit withal ; and he that hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of his : So that though men may be true Christians and Ministers without the Gift of Tongues , yet not without Divine Inspiration , Divine Light , and Immediate Revelation from God , in some Degree , more or less . Also , as to the Spirit and Gift of Prophecy , and of Discerning of Spirits , and Working Miracles in a Spiritual Way , I cannot give away our Cause as to these , nor did I ever intend to exclude those Gifts out of the Church among us ; for we have sufficient Evidence both of true Prophets and Discerning of Spirits , as a Gift given to divers [ And doth not the Apostle prefer Prophecy above Tongues , which were for a Sign , not to them that believed , but to them that believed not ? see 1 Cor. 14. 5. & 22 , 23 , 24. vers . So hast not thou plainly implyed thy self to be an Unbeliever and a Dark Man , who wants such a Sign to be shewn thee , to evidence that we are Divinely Inspired ? And yet , if we could speak with the Tongues of Men and Angels , that were not a sufficient Evidence ( of it self ) to convince Unbelievers , that we are ●o inspired ] And I must say , that though every Member in the true Church hath not all those peculiar Gifts that some have , yet none can be either True 〈◊〉 or Living Member of the True Church ( or of Christ ) without Divine Inspiration ( for a Rule ) or a partaking of the Spirit , Life and Power of Christ within ( viz. in an Immediate Way ) which is sufficient to evidence and shew forth it self in what Operation , Gift or Demonstration , as the Spirit pleaseth or willeth ; and not as man willeth , in his own Will and Time. 2. Whereas to clear our selves from that Charge of Preferring our Books before the Scriptures ( because of the Titles given to some ) after I had discovered the Unjustness of the Charge , and Falseness of the Comparison , I said , Such Titles therefore have been not strictly , but figuratively placed upon some Books * Hence he infers , That Thomas Hicks may as well tell me — for all his words , wherein W. P. and I charged him with Forging and Forgeries , Slanders and Lyes , that such Titles , such Words or Sayings are not strictly but figuratively placed , and put down in his Dialogues . Upon which this Opposer vapours and triumphs , as if he had gotten some great Prize , filling part of his Book with his Taunts and Jeers hereupon , as if he were some singular Rhetoric●an ; but his Perversion and silly piece of Quarrel appears very plain : For , Are there not some Figurative Phrases lawfully used ? Yes . He denyes not all Figures , he sayes ; Why does he quarrel then ? And how grosly and fallaciously does he compare some Titles of our Books with those Passages in Tho. Hicks's Dialogues , which we not only charged upon him ( but also proved in our Books ) to be Forgeries , Slanders and Lyes , though affirmed by him for very Truth ? And from our Charge this Author and all his Abettors can never clear him , by all his Shifts and Retorsions . For , supposing ( as for ought this man knows otherwise ) T. H. be really guilty , as charged of Forgery , Slanders and Perversions , Is it as lawful to excuse this by a Figure ( which must needs be the Devil 's drawn Figure ) as when we treat of the Light Within being risen out of Darkness , such a Title is placed upon the Book , as , Light risen out of Darkness : which properly belongs to the Matter or Subject treated on , and is explained in the Treatise accordingly ? Is this all one with forging Lyes and Ridiculous Stuff in other men's Names ? Oh sensless Man ! Is this thy Rhetorick ? Dost thou make no Difference between a Metonymical Phrase , used in a serious Sense , and a palpable Slander or designed Forgery to render men Odious , as T. Hicks hath done , beneath the common use of Phrases Ironical ? Surely this will not blow away our Charges , nor make T. H. much beholding to me , or his Way easie * ( as this man reckons I have done ) nor have we Cause to think , that I have so furnished my Adversary with such Weapons as may mortally wound our Cause , as he saith ; nor is there any need for the Quaker to wind or twine , kick , winch , slatter and flutter , as he scornfully words it ; however , he thinks he has found a Net , and is able to hold the Leviathan , he saith . Oh silly Scorner ! blush and be ashamed : Is this thy Net , that if we use Words or Phrases in a figurative Sense in some Case , then a Lyar and Forger may as well excuse himself by a Figure ? Wilt thou grace thy Cause by such Rhetorick , thinkest thou ? Being so accustomed to equivocate and quibble thy self , thou art ever and anon accusing us therewith . Thou sayest , The Quakers have excluded themselves from using of Figures : Why so ? Because all Figures were ended by Christ , the Substance . Here thou art a very silly Quibbler : Did we ever say , That Christ ended Figurative Speeches , when he so much used them ? And also , his Ministers often spoak figuratively , not only Metaphors and Allegories , but Metonymyes also : Or have we not rather confessed Christ , the Substance , as ending the Figures and Shaddows under the Law ? See now how thy silly Quibble is evident , and what a Scornful Fellow , as thou termest thy self , thou hast shown thy self to be . Thy Pamphlet is made up much with Scoffs , Quibbles , gross Perversions and Abuses , the greatest part of which I am necessitated at present to pass by , as looking upon thee to be an unworthy , cowardly and base-spirited Man , who shuffles about to hide thy self , but makes no Conscience of exposing others by Name to Infamy and Reproach ; as for instance [ after thou hast charged me with Circumlocutions and Evasive Words ] thou both evadest and shufflest about the Question made concerning the Name Thomas Thompson ( subscribed to both thy Pamphlets against us ) as , Whether this be the real Author's Name ? thou putst us off thus , He hath a Nose in his Face , as well as any Quaker hath ; what if the Author , instead of Thomas Thompson had subscribed M. A. could not W. P. have joyned N. and then have read it thus , A Ma● ? and sayes , It is happy for him that I am so ignorant , and that my Light leaves me into so much Darkness of the Author — Suppose the Author be a Private Person ; what if he dwells 50 or 60 Miles from London ? &c. pag. 10 , 11. And what Evasions and Shufflings is here ? Hast thou not bewrayed thy own Equivocation , and that the Author's Name is not Thomas Thompson ? A shuffling Apology of the like Nature we have in the Pamphlet , entituled , The Spirit of the Quakers Tryed , p. 44 , 45. wherein the Author ( it is supposed this same ) gives his Reasons why he is afraid to discover his Name . But what doth my Person signifie to the Merit of the Cause ( sayest thou ) that is that which they ought to mind , if they were ingenuously honest , and not my Person ? &c. p. 12. It is very likely thy Name and Person would neither add to the Merit of ( nor grace ) thy Cause : Thou art very Cautious and Timorous thy Name or Person should be discovered , and here hast gotten a Pretence that stands in Judgment against thee , while thou makest no Conscience of scurrilously abusing other men's Names in Print , with a Multitude of scornful Reflections upon G. Whitehead , W. Penn , and others , and not only so , but upon the Quakers in general , with which thy Pamphlet is much stuffed , short of all Seriousness and Sobriety : Where is thy Conscience and Religion ? Is it all devoured with Lightness , and turned into Scorn ? Dost thou think to terrifie us with using such a Liberty of Speech as thou tellest of , pag. 7 ? And hast not thou made use of such mean and unmanly Artifices as thou tellest of , pag. 12 , as namely , to be Angry and Waspish , and therein to reflect upon Persons ? What is then become of thy Cause ? And when did we ever tell thee , That we would have thee guided by our Sufferings meerly ? p. 8. Herein thou pervertest : But hast thou not formerly perceived something of Religion and Christianity , as the Ground of our giving up to suffer ? However , we are satisfied , that we suffer as Christians , and that the Presence of God hath been with us in many Sufferings and Tribulations , and that his Presence and Power is with us to this day , whatever Mockers and Apostates say to the contrary . I deny all Prejudiced Angry Anabaptists Spirits , p. 15. Dost thou so ? Deny Prejudice and Anger in thy self then : Why hast thou appeared so much then ( like an Envious Socinian ) for the Angry Anabaptists , as one greatly possest with the Leaven of their Spirits ? As for Craftily taking thee for a Baptist , or jumbling thee with them . I did not , nor do take thee for a Baptist ; though I did look upon thee as having jumbled thy self as a Consederate with them , or an Assister of them against us ; I have Ground to think who thou art , and possibly in time thou mayest be more manifest , for thy creeping underly Work of Strife , and dark Attempts against the Lord's People . And whereas to clear the Baptists Innocency touching thy other Pamphlet , thou addest these words , viz. I do hereby declare once more , and affirm , as in the Presence of God , that no Baptist nor Anabaptist , so called , did see that my Epistle to W. P. till after I had writ it , p. 15. Very like so ; how should they ? But to take thy Intention ; If they did not see any part of it , nor advise thee in the writing of it , this clears them not from seeing or approving it for Publication , nor thee from being a Partial Abettor of them in their Socinianiz'd Cause , which it seems is very lame therefore , and like to be more lame and defective , if they leave it in thy hands to mannage : It is well , if while they are contending for the Humanity of Christ , they do not at length oppose or further deny his Divinity . As for clearing thy self of Contradictions , thou art so far from it , that I think I can easily make it appear to any indifferent Person , met thou hast added divers more Contradictions , Confusions and Gross Perversions ; as also can as easily remove thy Charge of Contradictions or Inconsistencies , which thou hast framed against Me , W. P. G. F. G. K. J. C. &c. but at present I count it not worth my Labour or Time particularly to enervate them , except thou wouldst appear and shew thy self , like a Man , not afraid to discover thy self or Name : but it appears in thy hiding and obscuring thy self under another Name , as divers think , thou hast the more Liberty to traduce and abuse thy Neighbours , or such as have wished thee well , and are not willing to render thee Evil for Evil. But if thou wilt enter into any serious Debate about Principles , come forth and shew thy self , and do not use such Equivocal Subterfuges : I proffered thee fair enough in my Letter to thee , when I desired but so much Civility from thee , as to have an Hour's Discourse with thee in the Presence of Two or Three of thy Friends and mine , that I might have shewn thee , wherein I apprehend the Truth , my Self and my Friends wronged , in divers Passages of thy Book ; proffering , either to come to thy House , or to meet thee , if I might know where : But instead of either , thou shuffledst me off with a long Letter , subscribed T. T. neither letting me know where thou dwellest , nor where I might meet with thee ; pretending some Circumstances of thy Occasions would not conveniently admit ; with some other trivial Allegations . A strange Put-off ! What , not spare an Hour's Time to discourse or examine thy own Injuries and yet can take many Hours to write Pamphlets thereof against us ? Oh Timorous Man ! What sorry Shuffling art thou fain to make use of ? And as concerning our Confession of the Christ of God , both as to his Divinity and Manhood , we have not been nor are ashamed thereof ; and instead of proving us guilty either of Equivocations or Confusions , therein it may be easily made appear , how far thou hast brought forth both , together with many impertinent and groundless Cavils against us thereupon : And as for the Divinity or Deity of the Son of God , and his Sonship , and being Christ before he took Flesh , thou art so far from confessing this with us , that thou makest a meer Scoff at our serious Account thereof , p. 30 , 31. Telling me of a pretty Medley of Hypocrisie , Quibbling and Confusion , and deviating from Scripture-Language in speaking of the Divine Nature , or Word cloathed with the Most Holy Manhood being the Christ. But is this a Truth in it self , yea or Nay ? What! is the Socinian or Biddlean Proselyte offended at our confessing the Divinity of Christ so much as we do , when he dares not appear ingenuously and publickly to state his own Principle ? But whatever he thinks of our deviating from Scripture-Language , or of opposing our selves therein ‖ we would not impose or force a Belief of our Principles in such Language as is Unscriptural and doubtful , or make meer Words Matter of Contention , where they are sound , or according to Scripture ; neither would we be imposed upon by Words both Doubtful and Unscriptural ; and if we be necessitated , in our own Vindication , to use any words that are not expresly laid down in Scripture , it is in Condescension , and not for Contention [ Note , that this Man boggles at and evades my Eight plain Questions in pag. 22 , 23. of Q. Plainness , about the Son of God ; and instead of giving any ingenuous Answer , he meerly Triffles , Quarrels , Contemns , Retorts , Questions , &c. through much of his second Section . Passing by at present many Injuries and Falshoods , and scornful Cavils against my self . I must take notice of one Abuse against Samuel Fisher , pag. 54. and reiterated p. 59 , 89. where thou thus chargest him , That he positively asserts the Scriptures to be a Nose of Wax ; yea , and saith , it is capable of being no other ; and for this quotes Samuel Fisher's Additional Appendix , p. 21. Thou art here very positive in thy Charge , which indeed is a Charge of a high Nature ; But hast thou dealt honestly or truly in this ? Was it S. F's positive Assertion concerning the Scriptures themselves ? Or did he speak it with Reflection upon them who make or render the Scriptures no better then a Nose of Wax by their own various Interpretations ? Though he be Dead , yet he speaketh for himself so much as may detect thy Injustice and Abuse against him ; where treating of the then Priests Confusion , or going round , &c. about the Transcriptions and Translations of their Text , which they take to be their Rule ( he thereupon addeth ) Which were they never so certain and entire , by answering to the first Original Copies , yet are not capable to be ( to all men ) any other then a Lesbian-Rule , or Nose of Wax ; forasmuch as even where men have them ( as half the World has not ) they are lyable to be Wrested and Actually Twisted Twenty Wayes by Interpreters , whose Expositions , Senses and Meanings ( which are as Many and Various as the Thoughts , and Conceits , and Inventions of the Men are , who comment upon them ) must be the Rule , &c. see his Additional Appendix to his Rusticus ad Academicos , pag. 21. Now judge ( serious Reader ) whether it be Samuel Fisher's own positive Assertion , That the Scriptures are a Nose of Wax ( in themselves ) or whether that they are not rather made so ( or no better ) by such as Wrest and Twist them ? What a manifest Perverter is this Man ! Surely the Lord will rebuke him , and all perverse Opposers and Perverters . Whereas thou sayest , That the Baptists have this to say for themselves , They do not pretend to Immediate Divine Revelations and such Inspirations , nor to a Gift of Infallibility , nor yet to any such Immediate Commission from Heaven , as the Quakers do , viz. to go forth as Prophets and Apostles , p 56. I say , the Baptists are then greatly declined from what many of them pretended at first , as may be seen in divers of their ancient Books ; wherein they profest Inspiration , and confest to the Sufficiency of the Spirit 's Teaching , and being moved and led thereby , both in Praying and Preaching ; see Sam. How 's Sufficiency of the Spirit 's Teaching , commended by W. Kiffin ; D. King 's Way to Sion ; T. Colster's Works , with many others : Hast thou mannaged the Baptists Cause well , in saying , They do not pretend to Immediate Revelations , Inspirations , &c. contrary to their former Testimonies ? And whether we or they will shew more or greater Evidence , Time , Tryals and Sufferings will further manifest , as it hath already : God hath made our Testimony both evident and effectual in many Consciences , through our Travails and Suffering as Christians ; wherein he hath appeared with us and for us , and stood by his Prophets and Faithful Witnesses among us . As for thy Comparison between the Quakers and Muggleton in both thy Pamphlets ; there is enough in it to manifest how Unjust , Irrational & Dishonest thou art therein ; it will neither hold as a just Comparison either in general , or in the particulars * For all the rest of thy Revilings , Hard Speeches , Cavilling and Quarrelling against us , we commit our Cause to God , and appeal to him to plead it , and to evidence for us in the Hearts of our Adversaries , as we doubt not but he will yet further , for his own Name and Truth 's sake ; in the mean time , he hath given us to Rejoyce over the Revilings of our Adversaries , to pray for them that persecute us . And though we are as Fools for Christ , we have learned to shew forth so much of Christianity , as when Persecuted , patiently to Suffer it ; when Revised , to Bless ; when Defamed , to Intreat ; Rejoycing when men Revile , Persecute and speak all manner of Evil of us falsly for his Name 's sake : whose Sufferings we esteem Greater Riches then all the Glory of Egypt . London , the 27th of the 12th Moneth , 1674. I subscribe my self thy Abused Friend and Lover of Truth and Men. G. W. THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65890-e10 * And withal , shewed as high Titles given to Baptists Books as ours , Qu. Plainness , p. 71 , 72 , 73. * Which renders his Friend T. H. his Cause very lame , and sorely wounds it ▪ then ‖ When we Oppose our Adversary's Raising Conten●ion , by their imposing Unscriptural and Unsound Words . * It is not thy Mocking [ and telling G. W. That when thou talkest of Reason he presently thinks of Plums ] that will clear thee . How easie is it for a Scoffer to fill Books witk such Frothy Stuff ? 
A65891	----	The true light expelling the foggy mist of the pit and the gross confusion and blasphemy of the beast, which is gone forth against the light of Christ and the scripture within, from an old professor, called Francis Duke of Westminster, in his book stiled, An answer to some of the principal Quakers, who therein boasts as if he had a great skil in divinity so that his pretended divinity in the said book is here discovered, and the true light and scripture within here vindicated from his gross aspertions cast upon the light, and them that walk in it / by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A65891 of text R19779 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing W1967). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 36 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 8 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A65891 Wing W1967 ESTC R19779 12290398 ocm 12290398 58877 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65891) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58877) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:27) The true light expelling the foggy mist of the pit and the gross confusion and blasphemy of the beast, which is gone forth against the light of Christ and the scripture within, from an old professor, called Francis Duke of Westminster, in his book stiled, An answer to some of the principal Quakers, who therein boasts as if he had a great skil in divinity so that his pretended divinity in the said book is here discovered, and the true light and scripture within here vindicated from his gross aspertions cast upon the light, and them that walk in it / by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 15 p. Printed for Thomas Simmons ..., London : 1660. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Errata: p. 15. eng Duke, Francis. -- Answer to some of the principal Quakers. Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. A65891 R19779 (Wing W1967). civilwar no The true light expelling the foggy mist of the pit, and the gross confusion and blasphemy of the beast, which is gone forth against the ligh Whitehead, George 1660 7072 5 0 0 0 0 0 7 B The rate of 7 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-04 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-05 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-05 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion The True Light expelling the Foggy Mist OF THE PIT , AND The gross Confusion and Blasphemy of the Beast , which is gone forth against the Light of Christ and the Scripture within ; from an old Professor , called Francis Duke of Westminster , in his Book stiled , An answer to some of the Principal Quakers , who therein boasts as if he had a great skil in Divinity . So that his pretended Divinity in the said Book is here discovered , and the true Light and Scripture within here vindicated from his gross Aspertions cast upon the Light , and them that walk in it . By GEORGE WHITEHEAD . Revel. 13.6 . And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God , to blaspheme his Name and his Tabernacle , and them that dwell in Heaven . LONDON , Printed for Thomas Simmons , at the sign of the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate , 1660 Some of Francis Dukes gross Aspertions and Blasphemies against the Light within ( which is the Light of Christ ) the Reader may see as followeth . THe said Francis Duke affirms the Light within to be a fancied Idol Light , in his eight page . And that the Light within is a lowsie Christ , or a Virmine bred of an addle brain , and that it is a whimsey , page 19 F. Duke hath set the Cat that sits in the Chimney Corner above the Light within , p. 21. and saith , That the Light within is a meer cheat , p. 26.28 . That the Light within in villanies , surmounts all the Antichrists , p. 40. That the Light within justifies the Roman Antichrists . That the Light within is a stinking Idol , p. 62. That it is but a shadow , p. 65. and a cheating Light , p. 66. And nothing but stench and rottennesse , p. 83. And yet this F. Duke knows not what our Light within is according to his own words , p. 20. & 21. Thus hath F. Duke like the beast blasphemed against God and Christ and his Light , Rev. 13.6 . For God is light and the Father of light , 1 John 1.5 . Jam. 1.17 . and he dwells and walks in his people , 2 Cor. 6.16 . and Christ is the true light which inlightneth every man that cometh into the world , and the free gift of God hath come upon all men , that they may believe and come to know him , John 1. Rom. 5.18 . Tit. 2.11 . Also this F. Duke hath often reviled us , and called us a pack of Villans as base as ever the earth bore . Also he hath often belyed and slandred us , and falsly accused us , with saying that the soul of man is God , and with nullifying the Scriptures and the Lord Jesus Christ , and saith , a Friend of ours said , that Judas is now as happy as Peter ; all which with the rest of his multitude of lies and blasphemies are denyed by us , and will fall upon his own head , though I have mentioned but a few of them . The answer to the said Francis Duke his Book . THere is a Generation that knows no shame , and because that judgement is not speedily executed upon them , therefore their heart is set in them to do wickedly , who have made lies their refuge , and with falshood have they covered themselves , one of whom is the said Francis Duke , as clearly appears in what he hath writ against the light within and against us who walk in it , so that any unprejudiced person that reads his Book may so soon see the grossnesse and absurdity of it , that to such it will manifest it self without answer ; yet for the Truth sake , that it may the more appear in its own authority and clearnesse over deceit and wickednesse , I shall briefly note the Heads of Francis Duke his work , and first shew the falsness of his four Particulars wherein his pretended answer or Book doth consist , as followeth . 1. Particular F. D. accuseth us , That we would bring all men to believe that the light which is in every man , is the Divine Nature of God or Gods essence now in part , but when they leave this world , that all shall be Gods in full perfection . To which I answer , This is false , and herein are our words perverted , for we do not affirm that the light which is in every nan is the Divine Nature , for the light is that which leads into the Divine Nature ; neither do we affirm , that when every man leaves this world , they shall all be Gods in full perfection , as our accuser implies ; as also F. Duke in thy fifth page , thou hast wickedly and falsly accused us of denying that there shall be any individuals of men to be damned or saved after this life , but that all shall be involved in the essence of the infinite Jehovah , which things were never owned nor affirmed by us ; and as touching the light in every man being the Divine Nature , we do not so say of it , but as Christ is the True light that enlightneth every man that cometh into the World , so his light in every man is that which begets as many as believe in it , into its own nature which is divine ; but they that hate and reject the light of Christ in them , it will be a witness against them to their eternal condemnation . 2. F. Duke accuseth us , That we would bring all men to believe that the same light in them is the onely true Christ , the second Adam , the Redeemer of the world , and that our Lord Jesus Christ is an outsid Christ , and no Christ but a name onely . To which I say , The latter part of this particular is exceeding false and a slander , that we never owned nor affirmed that the Lord Jesus Christ is an outside Christ , and no Christ but a name onely ; This absurd slander I return back upon thee who invented it , for no other Light or Christ do we own and preach but the Lord Jesus Christ and his light , who is the light of the World without respect of persons , and he is known in every one who believe in his light , know you not how that Jesus Christ is in you except ye be reprobates , 2 Cor. 13.5 . 3. F. Duke saith , That we would bring all men to believe that this light in them is the onely true Scripture and standing rule , for faith and life , and not the old and new Testament , the Sacred Oracles of God . I answer , Here is also an absolute falshood in this particular ; we do not seek to bring all men to believe that the light within them is the onely true Scripture , but the light of Christ in them , is that which writes the true Scripture within , and without the knowledge of which light , the Scriptures of the old and new Testament cannot be understood , nor the right use and end of them known , for it opens them , and therefore the Scriptures and sacred Oracles of God we own , being in the light that gave them forth . So whereas F. Duke in his 28 , 29.35.36 . pages , affirmeth , That the written Scriptures are the onely standing rule for faith and life to the Church , and the onely infallible rule . Wherein he hath affirmed that which the Scripture doth not , and so hath therein denyed the spirit of Truth , and its guidance to be the rule of Faith and Life , when as it is the spirit of Truth that leadeth into all Truth , John 16.13 . Rom. 7.6 . And this F.D. his assertions tends to exclude all the Holy men out of the Faith and Life who believed before the Scriptures were written , as also he would shut out all the believing Gentiles as unbelievers , who had not the law or Scripture without , and thus he would limit God and all his people to the letter or Scripture without , as the onely rule for their Faith and Life , when as they served him not in the oldnesse of the letter , but in the newness of the spirit . And yet this F. Duke to discover his confusion , hath granted That the Scriptures as they are an humane expression , as written or printed with Ink and Paper by the art of the Writer or Printer so considered , they are but dead letter , p. 33.34 . Wherein he hath plainly confuted himself , for if the Scriptures as they are written or printed in Ink or Paper , be but dead letter , then the light or Spirit of Truth must write and open the Scriptures within by inspiration , and the light and Scripture within which so often F. D. hath reviled and blasphemed against , is preferred before the dead letter without ; So then how can the Scripture or dead letter without , be the onely Rule for the living faith and life of the Saints , as often F. D. implies ? And yet we do not make null the Scriptures without , as falsly he hath accused us , but in owning the Light within do witnesse the fulfilling of Scripture without . 4. F. Duke also saith , That we and our Friends would bring all men to believe , that if they follow and bring themselves to be guided by the light which is within them , it will bring them to perfection even in this life . To which I say , Here are words also in this particular which are falsly put upon us , for we do not tell all men of bringing themselves to be guided by the light within them ( as if they could do it of themselves ) for that must be done through the drawings of God by the light in them , and not by themselves ; And all that deny the attainment of perfection by the light of Christ within which is perfect , they deny the work of Christ , and the Saints Ministry and life , for Christ is able to save to the utmost all that come to God by him , and his blood cleanseth them that walk in his light from all sin . Now the rest of F. D. his Book that is grounded upon these four said particulars , how should the matter of it be good when it is founded upon so much falshood as is in all these particulars . Also F. Duke , Thou hast done exceeding foolishly , falsly and wickedly in so often accusing us with John Tauney , and what he hath writ in his Book of ten Epistles , and reckoning him as one of the principal Quakers , for it s known that we who are scornfully so called , never owned him as one of us , and it s known that he hath both spoken and written against us ; So whereas thou hast writ much of thy Book against J. Tauney , it doth not touch us , for he was none of our Friends , as often thou hast falsly said , neither do we own his corrupt Principles . And where in page the 43. thou hast confessed That thou thy self art an Idiot , and a poor Idiot , p. 80. And yet boasts That thou art taught in Jehovahs Law , and that thou wilt not turn thy back to the most learned of us all in Divinity . Indeed it is the trick of a fool or Idiot to boast and to be confident as thou art , but they that shall hereafter read and see thy Divinity , they will judge thee no better then an Idiot indeed . And how hast thou proved against us as thou sayest , That we would bring all men to believe that the light in every man is God himself ? When thou thy self hast confessed , p. 9. That Jehovah fills Heaven and Earth , and all created Natures with his Divine Nature ; And in p. 11. thou hast confessed , That God is in every thing , and excluded out of nothing , and that he fills Heaven and earth by his essence , in p. 14. Wherein thou hast in part granted to truth against thy self , for if God be excluded out of nothing , and fill Heaven & earth by his essence , then what we say of his light being in every man is true , for God is light , and then why hast thou so much in many other places wrangled against us for Preaching this light of God in every man , and so blasphemed against it , as thou hast done in a horrible gross manner as further is discovered . And where thou sayest thou wilt destro● our fancied Idol light , our no true Scripture within , our no true Christ within , our no true God within . To this I say , in thy calling our light within an Idol thou hast blaspemed against God and Christ , for God and Christ is the light who dwells in his people , and Christ is in them , whom we own and witness and no other . And thou in saying thou wilt destroy our no true Christ within , our God within , hast not onely blasphemed against God , but also hast grosly confounded thy self in denying the true God in us , seeing in other places thou hast confessed that he is in every thing and is excluded out of nothing , but fills Heaven and Earth and all Created natures with his divine nature , and that his light extends in all men , page , 18. so that the true God and Christ cannot be excluded out of us : so as for thy threatning to destroy our light , our scripture , our God and Christ within ( who is the true God ) the Reader may see how thou hast attempted to destroy God and Christ and his light . wherein pap , 19 Thou sayest thou concludes that our fancied light within ( as thou calls it ) is no Scripture , no Christ , no God ; onely it is a lowsie Christ , or vermin bred in our own addle brain thou sayest . I answer , Oh what gross blasphemy and impudency hast thou shewed thou art in here ! To count Christ or the Light within a lowsie Christ or a vermin , and thou hast openly and grosly appeared against the Apostles doctrine who preached Christ within the hope of glory , who is the mystry that hath been hid from Ages , and the Law of God is written in the hearts which is Scripture within , so did ever any except an idiot & blasphemer give forth such unsavoury words against Christ the light and the Scripture within as thou hast done ? And wherein pag. 21 thou accusest John Chandler , as being seconded by Theaura John , in saying that the flesh of Christs body profits no more then your own flesh nor the words spoken of him ; as also thou chargest James Naylor , with seconding this in the third place in which thou hast wronged both John Chandler , and James Naylor and shamfully belyed them ; for these exppessions thou accuses Theaura John . which are denyed by I. C. and J. N. and the rest of us , and thy pretended proof against J.N. as seconding T.J. words is his saying of our light , Christ within , that it is but one in all unchangably just , equally holy to which thou F. Duke . replyest in these thy words , viz. Truly James ye might more properly atribute all this to the Cat that sits in the Chimney corner , for that is some thing , but this light in the dark Lanthorn of your brains is an Idol . To which I answer , you may see here how ignorant this F. Duke is of the light of Christ within , who in his esteem hath set the Cat in the Chimny corner above the light of Christ , which is but one in all ( which is the light that we speak of and preach ) for he hath here ( as his words plainly implyes ) accounted it more proper to say , that the Cat that sits in the Chimny corner is but one in all , unchangably just , equally onely , then to say so of the light ; in all what blasphemy scorne and contempt hath this Idol powred forth against the light , was there ever an Idiot that writ such stuffe as this before ? you may see this great pretended divine ; and what such divinity he boasts of who thus hath uttered forth his malice and blasphemy against the light of Christ which is but one in all ; and yet this pretended divine F.D. hath acknowledged in pag. 20. That Christ is every where in respect of his divinity , when but in this 21. page he hath esteemed the Cat that sits in the Chimney corner above the Light in all , as if it were more proper to say that the cat that sits in the chimney corner is but one in all , unchangeably just , then to say so of the light of Christ in all , and thus he hath blasphemed against the light of Christ and sought to put him to open shame , but thereby hath openly shamed himself ; And whereas we preach & witness to the light of Christ and the Scripture or Law of God in the heart ( and have charged some with getting the imitation in stead of the thing ) this doth Francis Duke compare to an ape , who ( he saith ) looking upon a Glasier that was setting up a great Glass window , and observing how he drove in the tacks with his hamer , did ( whilest the glasier was gone to dinner ) get up upon the Ladder , took the hammer and fell to work ( as he falsely saith we do ) and broke the glass window all to pieces , to which he compares the preaching or owning the Scripture within . To which I answer , here you may see Francis Duke his malice against the Scripture within , and his ignorance of it , and how he hath cast reproaches and contempt upon the Scripture within , as counting our walking according to , and preaching of the light and Scripture within no better then an Apes breaking a glass window ( as he in his vain story declares ) wherein he might as well have reproached the true Prophets and Apostles as us , for they owned the Light and Scripture within , and the word of God was in their hearts ; and the Scriptures of truth were given by inspiration of God and so were in the saints before they were given forth in paper and inke , and saith the the Lord I will write my Law in their hearts and put my spirit in their inward parts , and the Gentiles who obeyed the Law of God in them shewd the work of the Law written in their hearts ; so here was Scripture within which F. Duke like an Ideot hath dispised , who hath better esteem of the Cat that sits in the Chimney corner , and can better discern the Cat and the Ape then he can the light and the Scripture within Again , Francis Duke in p. 40 layes down these words against the light within , without exception , in this wise , viz. Truly many antichrists have done villanously , but thou O light within in villanies surmounts them all , for as Jerusalem justified Sodom , so thou light within dost justifie the Roman Antichrist . To which I answer , here the language and blasphemy of the beast which blasphemeth against God and his Tabernacle plainly appears . So see the blasphemy and confusion of this Ideot F. Duke how absolutely he hath blasphemed against the light within without exception , and yet in other places of his Book he hath confessed that God fills Heaven and Earth by his essence , and that he is in every thing , and that God enlightneth every man that cometh into the world , and hath spoken of the same Light in all men extending to the rational union and comunion with the divine nature , and that Christ is every where in respect of his divinity , in pages 9. and 11 & 14. and 18. and 20. In which things there is some truth though against himself , for God and Christ is light , and they are one in the Saints ; so that F. Duke in charging the light within to surmount all the many Antichrists in villanies , and with justifying the Roman Antichrists and with having abominations , is as much as if he had charged God and Christ ( who is the light within ) to surmount all the Antichrists in villanies and with justifying the Roman Antichrist . And then when he , like the beast , hath uttered all this blasphemy against God and Christ , he brings a piece of an Esop's fable against the Light , and saith , O thou light within , she ( meaning the Church of Rome ) abhors thy abominations , except it be in the case as the fox loves to here the Crow sing . Thus hath F. D. shewed his scorne , lightness contempt and blasphemy against the light within , and yet in page 20. this F.D. saith to Theaura John , that he nor no man else knows what our light within is , and such like to John Lylburn page , 12. so that he not knowing what our light within is , and yet so often having spoken so grosly against it as he hath done , he hath spoken evil of the thing he knows not , as the natural bruit Beasts did who were to be destroyed as the Scripture saith , 2. Pet. 2.12 . So that all that this Francis Duke hath written against the light within is done in his ignorance , as a man without understanding , who would appeare wise , and yet therein appears a fool and an idiot , so that had he been silent and done nothing , his folly had not so much appeared , but fools love to be medling . And whereas Christ said he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood dwelleth in me , and I in him , John . 6.53.56 . To this F.D. gives his meaning thus , viz. That is ( saith he ) as the Sun dwells in the eye by its beames , and as the eye dwells in the Sun by its shining , which his comparison is unequal , for Christ dwells in the Saints hearts , and his life is manifest in their mortal bodies which is much nearer to them then the Sun in the Firmament . And what is it thou sayest is in Jesus Christ , which is neither in an Episcopal Church Government , nor in Presbiterian , nor in an Independant Government , nor in a Rebaptism , nor Calvinism , page , 21. What is it , the Communion with the divine nature thou speaks of before ? or what is it ? How darkly hast thou here spoken ? and seeing thou hast judged all these Churches and professions , what art thou thy self ? and what particular Church or people that is standing dost thou own ? what dost thou own the Church of Rome , seeing thou hast set her against the light within ? but the light witnesseth both against her and thy abbominations and blasphemies . And whereas thou art pleading for such pretended respects as bowing one to another from Abrahams bowing himself to the ground ( as thou saist Gen. 18. And from Davids falling on his face to the ground and bowing , 1. Sam. 20. And Abigals bowing her self on the ground , 1. Sam. 25. With several others , which before Christ came in the flesh and not after among the Christians in the new Testament ; and why do not you who are in pride , and respecting persons , as well fall down on your faces to the ground every time you meet one another as bow and cringe and complement one to another from these examples ( which are not a Law ) thou quotest for bowing , seeing these examples are as well for falling with your faces to the ground as bowing ? but you can make use of some part of Scripture to serve your lusts and ends , and leave out what you your selves will , but the faith of Christ is not held with respect of persons , neither can they believe that receive honour one of another and seek not the honour that comes from God onely , John . 5.44 . James . 2. And yet we honour all men in the Lord without respect of persons , which honor stands not in vain and heathenish complements which serve to satisfie the proud vain mindes . And where provest thou by Scripture that the Devil the old Serpent is an Apostate Angel , as thou affirms he is , and that the Devil actuated a dumb beasts tongue ( to wit the Serpents tongue ) that he spake most perfect Hebrew to dissolve the union which the first parents had with the divine nature , as also thou affirms ? Seing the Devil was that Serpent that deceived Eve . What would thou make the people believe that the dumb beast or creature was the deceiver ? and what then was the forbidden fruit which the Serpent tempted man to eat of , and wouldest thou have it that the Devil and the dumb beast are as wise as the divines ( so called ) in speaking most perfect Hebrew ? surely the Serpent hath much deceived thee , and thou never knew the state of an Apostate Angel who keeps not his habitation in the power of God . And whereas in page 39.40 . Thou accounts that the good Angel that acted Balaams Ass to reprove his madness doth make use of us , and actuates our tongues and pens to repove the madness of the generality of the Ministers of our Lord Jesus Christ for neglect of their studious pains and labour in the sacred oracles of God , or a sneaking Covetousness , or their proud strife and vain glory , or seeking prayse and glory with men rather then with the infinite God . In which thou hast spoken falsely , the Ministers of Christ are free from these things , as sneaking covetousness , pride , strife , vain glory and the like , for them whom we reprove for these things are the covetous hireling Priests of the Nation ( who it seems thou intends in thy words ) who are not the Ministers of Christ , for thou hast confessed that thou art confident in England there was never more men to talk of God , but art afraid never fewer to walk with God , which is a great shame for the Priests and such as thou art , to make so much talk of God , and to bring forth no fruit to God , and how hast thou shamed the Priests and their hearers in this thy confession ? And what have the people of England given such vast sums of mony and hire to the Priests for , if there were never fewer to walk with God then now ? and then what good have the Priests done with all their preaching , if they have brought none to walk with God all this time ? And where thou accusest us as f●r having our tongues and pens actuated by the old Serpent , and sayest that he is our Teacher , and that he is in our mouthes , and pens , in this h●st thou lyed and thy own words contradict thee , for then how doth the good Angell actuate our tongues and pens , and make use of us as thou hast confessed , but thy folly in this as in the rest of thy durty stuff is easy to see , as is thy saying that the good Angel shall leave us alive in everlasting torments wch thou sayest shal be our wages for our work in gathering the seed of God . Wherein thou hast shewed thy self an enemy to the seed of God , and to his work of gathering them who are of that Seed . And what confusion hast thou uttered in saying , That after right believers are cleansed from all sins , guilt and punishment by Christs blood , yet there remains sins in them , therefore in this life ( thou sayest ) They can do no perfect good ? Which is absolute contrary to the Scriptures , see Psal. 119.1 , 2 , 3. Isa. 60.21 . Zeph. 3.13 . Mat. 5.48 . 1 Pet. 2.21 . and 4.1 . 1 John 3. to the 10. vers. And where provest thou , That though the soul of man be a spirit , yet it perceives not the Nature of Angels , as thou sayest ? For does not the spirit search all things , yea the deep things of God ? And does not the soul that is quickened by the spirit of God therein perceive the Angels of God and their nature , when they can perceive the Nature of God ? And whereas thou sayest , That Angels perceive not the spiritual and naked essence of God , but by the help of some created manifestation . Where provest thou that by Scripture ? Do not the Angels see the face of God continually ? Surely F. Duke in seeking to appear wise above what is written , by intruding into things he hath not seen , hath discovered his ignorance , folly and prophanesse . And where thou F. D. sayest That we would bring mans will to be Gods own essence ; And sayest , That J. Naylor in his Book , Love to the Lost , pag. 60. l. 16. saith , Mans free will is the Plant of God , the Will of God , the Mind of God , the Heart of God . In these hast thou shamefully belyed us and J. N. his words , for in that very place mentioned in J. N. his Book , he speaks of him that is born of the spirit , the Plant of God , who hath the Will of God , the Mind of God , the Heart of God , and not that mans free will is the Plant of God ; but J. N. plainly discovers how the will of him that is born of the flesh is in bondage . In like manner hast thou shamefully belyed John Rouse , in saying , That he said to thee , that God may do as much by any other man , as he did by Christ Jesus who lived and died at Jerusalem . As also in many other things hast thou notoriously belyed us , as all unprejudiced persons who reads thy Book , will see and be ashamed of thee for so doing . And whereas in thy rambling stuff which thou writes to John Lilburn ( who is deceased several years ago ; ) then sayest , We deny the Trinity . To this I say , We do not deny the God-head , nor any thing pertaining to it , but own the three that bear record in Heaven , the Father , the Word , and the Spirit , and these three are one ; but whereas from Deut. 6.4 . thou sayest , Our Elohims is one Jehovah , and afterwards telleft of a second Elohim , and a third Elohim . To this I say , is not Elohim God according to thy own confession ? and is it proper to say there is a first God , and a second God , and a third God , as if there were three Gods , ( and one before another ) as thy words implyes ? And where provest thou the word Elohims ? Is it not Elohim ? And that of Deut. 6.4 . which thou bringest , proves not thy confusion and non-sence , for there it saith , the Lord our God is one Lord . And to prove the Scriptures to be the Word of God ( which thou sayest is that which declares the Mind of God to man ) thou instancest , How God conveyed his mind to man , and what God said unto Adam , to Cain , to Noah , to Abraham . To this I say , The Scriptures of Truth are Writings , and a Declaration of these things that were surely believed amongst the Saints , Luke 1.1 . Acts 1.1 . but God conveyed his Mind by his Word , unto these mentioned , before the Scriptures were written ; So that which conveighs the Mind of God to the mind of man , is the word of God in the heart , which was in the beginning before the Scriptures were written , Iohn 1.1 . Rom. 10.8 . Deut. 30 14. Now we own that in the Scriptures are the Words of God , which were spoken forth from the Word of God , which was in the Saints hearts ; as also in another place thou sayest The Scripture is these words of God , which we own , but in this as in other things hast thou confounded thy self . And where thou sayest , The Scripture is the ground of your faith , p. 73. and that the Word of God in the Scriptures was the ground of Christs Faith , p. 74. I answer , Herein hast thou discovered thy ignorance of the true faith and the ground of it , as also thou hast set the Scriptures above Christ , in counting them the ground of his Faith , for he is the Author , the ground and foundation of the Saints Faith , and from that faith were the Scriptures given forth to be believed and fulfilled ; so Christ and his Faith ( which is the Faith of Gods Elect ) was before the Scriptures were written , for another foundation can no man lay , then that which is laid which is Christ Jesus . And thy saying , That Christ kept his mind close to the word of God in the Scriptures that were written by Moses , to repell the Tempter and his Temptations . I Answ. Here again thou hast set the Scriptures above Christ , as if he had received his power from the Scriptures to repel the tempter , when as it was through faith and patience in the power of the Father which was in him that he overcame the tempter , and in the authority of that power he spoke Scripture as they do who are in it , for cannot the Scriptures he made use of in the faith , but they must be the ground of faith ? how comes any then truly to believe what is written in the Scripture ? And where thou sayest , we affirm there is no word of God but that light which is in man . In this thou hast accused us fasly , for it was from the word of God which is the light in the heart that the words of God in the Scriptures of truth were given forth . And whereas in page . 77. Thou sayest , that the Devils and all damned Creatures , their being , life and motion is in God . I Answ. How is the Devils being , life and motion in God , when as the Devil abode not in the truth , but rebelled against God , and was a lier and muderer from the beginning ? what is the Devils motion in God when he moves to lying , and murdering and the like ? And the Devil is the power or Prince of darkness , but God is light and in him is no darkness at all . So how blindly and foolishly hast thou appeared in these things for the Devil . And now whereas thou art telling of four things in which God doth manifest himself to us , thou sayest the first is the fabrick of the Creation , the s●cond is the Scriptures , but thirdly thou sayest that which doth manif●st most of all , and is therefore light is the spirit of God . And fourthly thou sayest there is in all men a light within which enlightenth every man which cometh into the world which is the spirit of God . I Answ. By this account thou might as well say there are many more things then four by which God manifests himself , for what thou mentions as a third and a fourth thing , is but one , as if thou hadst said the third thing which doth manifest God most of all is the spirit of God , and the fourth thing is the spirit of God , what an Ignoramus art thou to utter such non-sence as thou hast done ? But whereas thou ownest That there is a light in all men which is the spirit of God , and that he doth write the effect of the Law of God in the hearts of all men , from whence they do by nature the things contained in the Law , which shew the effect of the Law written in their hearts , and it was written to this end , that from this light within ( suteable to the Scriptures ) they might come to Christ that he might give them life , or on the contrary , if they by custome in sin extinguish this light within , this will leave them in their own consciences without excuse , thou sayest . To which I say , If there be in all men a light , which is the Spirit of God , and which is to lead them to life in Christ , or leave them in their consciences without excuse , if they continue in sin according to thy words , then hast thou granted to the thing which we say of the Light of Christ in all men , and then why hast thou so much reviled and scorned us and the light which we preach , which is the way to Christ , and to eternal life in him ? Which at length ( after thy many , scofs , blasphemies and revilings ) thou art made to confesse to , though to thy own confusion and condemnation ; and by this light in thee shalt thou be left without excuse in thy own conscience , and condemned for ever if thou continuest in thy wickednesse , scorn and blasphemy . I reject the rest of thy many lies and false doctrines , which are in thy puddle of dirt , in thy slanderous confused book , as not worth mentioning nor further wading in , and it were well if thou and such as thou art would own this Scripture in the feeling of the Light which gave it forth , where the Apostle saith , who is a wise man and endued with knowledge , let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meeknesse of Wisdome , but if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts , Glory not and lie not against the Truth , Iam. 3.13 , 14. From a Friend to the Truth of God which is professed and owned by his people called Quakers . THE END . ERRATA . Page 3. line 21. for nan r. man , p. 4. l. 4 for that we , read for we , p. 7. l. 33 , for this Idol , r. this Idiot . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65891e-430 Rom. 10.8 . 2 Tim. 3.16 . Jer. 31. Heb. 8 Rom. 2.15 
A65892	----	The true ministers living of the Gospel, distinguished from the false ministers living upon tithes and forced maintenance. With a word of reproof (preceding the distinction) to the ministers of the nation, whose kingdom is already shaken and divided against itself. And the iniquity and antichristianism of that ministry which is upheld by forced maintenance, briefly discovered according to the scriptures of the Old and New Testament. In a brief reply to a book stiled, An answer to a Quakers seventeen heads of quaeries, by John Bewick, who calls himself a minister of the Gospel, and rector of the parish church of Stanhop in Weredale in the county of Durham. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A65892 of text16 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing W1968). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 36 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A65892 297426201 Wing W1968 297426201 ocn 297426201 58888 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65892) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58888) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English Books, 1641-1700 ; 930:28, 2928:7) The true ministers living of the Gospel, distinguished from the false ministers living upon tithes and forced maintenance. With a word of reproof (preceding the distinction) to the ministers of the nation, whose kingdom is already shaken and divided against itself. And the iniquity and antichristianism of that ministry which is upheld by forced maintenance, briefly discovered according to the scriptures of the Old and New Testament. In a brief reply to a book stiled, An answer to a Quakers seventeen heads of quaeries, by John Bewick, who calls himself a minister of the Gospel, and rector of the parish church of Stanhop in Weredale in the county of Durham. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. Naylor, James, 1617?-1660. Bewick, John, d. 1671. An answer to a Quakers seventeen heads of quaeries. 36 p. Printed for Thomas Simmons at the Signe of the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate, London : 1660. Signed at end: "G.W. J.N." W1968 on reel 930 lacks all after page 16. Cf. Wing (2nd ed.). Reproductions of originals in: Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery (reel 930:28) and Haverford College. Library (reel 2928:7). eng Society of Friends -- England -- Early works to 1800. Tithes -- England -- Early works to 1800. A65892 16 (Wing W1968). civilwar no The true ministers living of the Gospel, distinguished from the false ministers living upon tithes and forced maintenance· With a word of re Whitehead, George 1660 7270 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 B The rate of 1 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-08 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-01 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2006-01 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE True Ministers Living of the GOSPEL , Distinguished from the False Ministers Living upon Tithes and forced MAINTENANCE . With a Word of Reproof ( preceding the distinction ) to the Ministers of the Nation , whose Kingdom is already shaken and divided against it self . And the Iniquity and Antichristianism of that Ministry which is upheld by forced Maintenance , briefly discovered according to the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament . In a brief Reply to a Book stiled , An Answer to a Quakers seventeen Heads of Quaeries , by John Bewick , who calls himself a Minister of the Gospel , and Rector of the Parish Church of Stanhop in Weredale in the County of Durham . Ye eat the fat and ye clothe you with the wooll , ye kill them that are fed , but ye feed not the flock , the diseased have ye not strengthened , neither have ye healed that which was sick , neither have ye bound up that which was broken , neither have ye brought again that which was driven away , neither have ye sought that which was lost , but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled over them , Ezek. 34. 3. 4. London , Printed for Thomas Simmons at the signe of the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate . 1660. A Word to the said Iohn Bewick and the rest of his Brethren the hireling Priests who are in his way . VVHither are you now run for a refuge and defence for your Tithes and set maintenance ? doth all your old grounds fail you that formerly you have pleaded ? are you driven out of Scriptures of Christ and his Apostles , out of all the Law of God there , and out of Law of Nations and Countreys , and would you now fly to Melchisedek for help ? what is there no scripture command that will own you in your yearly stipends , and are you afraid of mens Laws failing you , and are you now fled from all your former pleas , and think you to find help from Melchisedek ? did you not formerly plead Divine Right , and told us by Scriptures you would prove it , and then being driven out of all commands or examples in Scriptures , then you pleaded the custome of the Countrey , and National Law , and by that in Olivers time you took mens goods , and cast them into prison , and made havock and spoil abundantly , and then many of you would not plead scripture at all , but by custome and humane Law you would have it ? and dare you no longer depend upon that , and dare you now think Melchisedek will stand you in stead , or own you in your work and trading , any more then the Prophets and Apostles ? what are ye of the Order of Melchisedek now , who but a while ago must needs plead the order of Levi ; and then when that order and your manners will not stand together , then you pleaded the order of the Nations ; and now thou S. B. in thy book would make people believe that you are after the order of Melchisedek , and that Tithes was yours before they were given to Levi , and that he had them but for a time by a special command , till you came , and then you were to come up after the order of Melchisedek , and so you must now enjoy them for ever , &c. But now you must be tried in the light whether you be of that order or no , as well as you have been tryed with the order of Levi ; And if you be found of his order , then we will grant you to have right to his maintenance , ( if you will be but content with it ) for we must needs think it meet , that Children should inherit the right of their Father ; so if you be Melchisedeks children , you will do his works , which was to relieve the weary Souldier with his own bread and wine ; so you may expect his reward , if they be free to give it you , as Abram was of his spoiles ; For we never read that it was the order of Melchisedeck to ravine about after outward things , nor sued people for hire , nor spoiled their estates , nor cast them into prison , nor any way sought after gifts or rewards , nor do we read that he ever required or received any yearly tythes of any people or Parish , either ●●eaves , beasts , swine , fowls or the like , which was to relieve their families , from any creature , but as he was the Priest of the most high God , not called nor made of men , so he was maintained by him , and not by men , and he was like to him that called him , a bountiful man , ready to give , ready to blesse , and to relieve others in their way , as appears in what he did to Abram and his Army in the way , he met them with bread and wine , and gave them freely , and asked them nothing again , and so he received freely tythes of Abrams spoiles , but never can any of you prove that he had the tythes of Abrams Estate , stock , or tillage , nor ever demanded or sued , or took by force any part of any mans goods upon any pretence whatsoever . So here is Melchisedecks order , if you be of it and his children , then you will own it , and it will own you , and we shall own it also in you ; And in this order we find him who was of that Priest-hood , Christ Jesus , a Priest for ever after his order , who to us is an example for ever , and all that walk contrary we deny , who said , it 's more blessed to give then to receive , who was bountifull in feeding others , but for himself he had not where to lay his head , this was after the order of Melchisedeck , and all his are after him for ever , and therefore none of his Ministers did ever require any thing for themselves but what was free , not coveting any mans gold , money , or apparel , nor ever in the least did mention tythes to themselves , or make any yearly bargain about carnal things whatsoever , but preached freely and received freely , or nothing . And this in Scriptures we find to be the order of Melchisedeck , and the order of Christ and of his Apostles , if you can receive it . But on the contrary , when we see a sort of men who never heard Gods voice , running and enquiring who can get the greatest yearly stipend , Tythes , or augmentation , and tearing peoples bodies and estates if they get it not , according to the havock that hath been made by the Priests of this Nation in these late yeares , this was never the order of Melchisedeck , Christ , or his Apostles , nor the order of Aaron neither , who had a law for Tythes , but the order of Eli's sons , who was sons of Belial , who knew not the Lord , And therefore sent their servants to take it by force , as now hath been done , to the spoiling of many families . So you are found further from the order of Melchisedeck , Christ , and his Apostles , then from the order of Levi , as far as the Priest-hood and ministration of Christ exceeds in bounty and freenesse the ministration of Moses , so far are you come short in your orders and manners , in this covetous practise , after earthly things . And you are seen to be after the order of those that minded earthly things , which the Apostles foretold of , who were coming up in their time , who served not the Lord Jesus Christ , but their own bellies , and made merchandize of people in their times , through covetous practises , and this hath been the order and manners of you , as your practises hath proved it in these late years , to the ruining of many families , and so your manners hath declared your order and descent , none that ever was from above doing such things . So it 's in vain to seek to cover that with words which is so monstrously broken out into contrary actions ; The Sheeps cloathing can no longer cover your various natures , and for this end hath God left you to your selves , that your practises may exceed , and so make you manifest to the full , and thus hath he left you , that the more you seek to cover your selves with deceitfull words , the more you give occasion for people to mind your unanswerable lives , which are become so boundlesse in covetousnesse , pride , and oppression , That neither Christ , Melchisedeck , nor Moses , can own you therein , nor will answer what you do , so that when you have done what you can , you must be driven back to her that brought you forth , who rides upon the beast , for no other power will own you , nor bear you in your practises . O unreasonable men , what unreasonable work have you made in these late years in this Nation ? what begging and petitioning have you made to every severall power , to enlarge your benefits ? what thrusting out one another out of great livings to get in your selves , And when you have got in , what havock have you made of the peoples Estates , and still cryed to the earthly powers for more maintenance ? what sueing and casting in prisons of poor people ? how have you cursed the great ones that was over you , when they would not serve your turn ? and stirred up wars against them , till all hath been as heaps by your means ? how have you flattered such as would feed you while they had power , and when they fell , then you have reviled them , and crept under the next , and flattered them also ? and all for Tythes , and augmentations and the like , which thou callest the golden oyl ; And yet you would have us believe you are not covetous , nor preach for lucre ; And you do deceive with your fained words such as are not able to judge between your words and your practice , and so the blind lead the blind , and you hate the light that discovers you , and we can truly say that it is not because we have wronged , or falsly slandered you , that you thus hate us above all men , but for the light that is in us , and the truth that makes you manifest ; And we have Gods witnesse with us , and in us , that we hate not your persons , but your ungodly practises , and so much the more are we made to testifie against you , as you seek to cover your selves with wresting the Scriptures , and taking the name of Christs Ministers upon you , but walk in such waies as none of his ever walked in ; And in faithfulnesse to God and godly men , we cannot allow you neither Melchisedeck , Christ , nor his Apostles , nor any of their words to cover you , untill you come into their lives , and leave your devouring covetous practises . And couldst thou blush , thou hadst never had a face to have quoted such Scriptures in this thy Book , and laid them upon the false Prophets and false teachers of old , whilst thy self is found in the very same steps ; so that modesty cannot but admire how thou couldst passe through them , and not be wounded in thy Conscience and made ashamed , what a fore-head have you got ? Or that ever thou shouldst so much as mention one Scripture of the Apostles , or any Ministers of Christ since the Law , to prove Tythes due to a Minister of Christ under the Gospel , a thing which none of them ever owned , or so much as mentioned , otherwise then as to deny them ; what a reprobate sense is some men now given up to , or was ever truth so perverted , contrary to the life and practice thereof ? And as for Melchisedeck , whom thou wouldst make thy refuge , he will not own you , nor serve your turn , who onely received Tythes of the spoil , of what was taken by the sword , and that but once , and that not by command nor demand , but by a free gift , upon his feeding the Souldiers first with bread and wine , freely ; how this will afford you an everlasting Law , to demand the tenth of peoples labours and estates , by which they should relieve their families , and not finding them free therein , to take it by violence , they are blind indeed who sees you not therein , your false ground , and false covers . And whereas you Teachers use your tongues for your great Tythes , and set maintenance , and the more to prevaile upon doubtfull minded people , you take the Apostles words , and by putting your meanings on them , make some people believe , that when they spoke of living on the Gospel , they meant Tithes , and augmentations &c. We say alas deceived men , you cannot deceive us therewith , for we in plainnesse tell you , that the practice of the true Prophets and Apostles , gives the true and open meanings of their teachings and writings , and to that must you come before their words can own you , or we allow you their words , as to have part or possession in them , for we know the true Ministers of Christ preached not for their bellies , nor their Master-ships , nor sought themselves , nor ever named Tythes as belonging to them in any case , nor was ever augmentation in the bargain to any people , as to their preaching and gospel , nor did they claim a great house to dwell in , but in all things laboured to follow their Lord and Master , who had no possession in the earth , for which they left what they had of their own to be as he was , and preached freely as he did , and this testimony is given of them in the Scriptures of truth , that they wandred to and fro , in hunger , cold , and nakednesse , having no certain dwelling place , and this was their reward , namely to make the gospel without charge , that it might be as free to others as they had received it of God , and they never handled the word for gain , nor taught for filthy lucre , nor made merchandize with it , as what will you give me , Judas like , nor had they great houses to live in , and great Tythe barns to lay up earthly treasure , nor any way exercised covetous practises , but had whole Churches , to which they had not been chargeable at all . Now for men to take such mens words , to cover their covetous cruell and ravinous spoil and Imprisonments , would be as the taking a Sheeps skin to put on a Wolfs back , and then say he is a Sheep , which might deceive the Sheep , but could not change the Wolves nature ; wherefore we cannot see the holy men of God so abused , and be silent , as to have their words so wrested quite contrary to the life thereof , and their godly innocent lives so wronged , as to be presented as men of such manners and behaviour ; So let them alone , and their holy words and godly innocent lives , abuse them not by taking them into your mouths , so as to represent them to be men of your order or behaviour . And Melchisedeck , and Christ , cause not their names to be evill thought on , by making people believe them to be fathers or authors of such spoil and bondage to poor people , or of the true gospel being so chargeable , this is charged upon you all , as you will answer him in his day , when he comes in all his holy ones whom wicked men have belyed , and in the mean time be ashamed of your comparing your selves with them , and confounded in your abuse of the holy Scriptures , and of holy mens lives , for the light is come from on high , and guile is found in your mouths and earthlinesse in your minds . And you that call your carnal maintenance of tythes and augmentations the golden oyl , ( as thou dost in thy book ) are seen in the light of God to be wholly ignorant of the true annointing , which should give you sight in your selves , and so cannot lead others out of the world ; And it 's no wonder that you so oppose the true light , your lamp must needs be darknesse when earthly things is your oyl , your gold must needs be drosse , and your prize below the mark of election , and corruption carries the draught in your ballance , whose golden oyl is earthly things , you are seen to be the men who have in you the false measure , and bag of deceitful weights , how is the holy one prized in you , how is the invisible disallowed , and how have you put the price upon carnal things , whose gold is become drosse , and corruption counted gold , are you the lights of these dayes ? and Honour , and Glory , and Blessing , Revel. 5. 12. so that they might as well have scoft at the Angels of God , who spake these words , as at us ; and have said that the Power that reaches to the seed is Christ , and then Christ is worthy to receive Christ , as also they have done in like manner in their scorn , in page 63. wherein they have shewed their gross ignorance of the several manifestations of Christ , the seed in his People , who are of the seed of Abraham , which Christ took upon him to redeem his own , and to bring to his own Power and promise , which he receives of the Father . And our saying that this Seed which is Christ where he suffers , and is burthened in man by corruption , there he desires to be free from the burthen of sin , does not argue as falsely as these men infer , that it cannot be said of the Seed of God that in it is no sin , for Christ hath suffered by mens sins and been pressed with them , and born them , Amos 2. 13. Ezek. 6. 9. and yet in him is no sin ; and if these men were not past feeling , they might feel how the Spirit of the just in them , they have often grieved , burthened and afflicted by their own sins , and yet in that Spirit there is no sin , but in them who resist it . J. Horn and Thomas Moor , say their Christ by that his death once suffered , and in his Resurrection in that his Body , &c hath overcome Death and the Devil , slain the enmity , and taken out of the way all that was contrary to them , redeemed them from the Curse of the Law . I Answer , Herein have they stollen the Saints words , which they are out of the like of , for if the enmity were taken out of the way , Sin would not be their natural heritage as they have pleaded for it , and they would not have uttered so many lies and falsehoods as they have done , for one of which , I. Horne hath craved forgivness ; and if all that 's contrary to them be taken out of their way , then its evident that sin and the Nations pollutions are not contrary to them , for they have confessed themselves too much to have a share in them , and that they are abusers of the Truth . And to that , 1 Iohn 4. 17. as he is so are we in this World , I. H. and T. M. give their meaning , and say , as Christ is unknown ; despised , hated , persecuted in his Doctrine , and judged by any of the World so are we . Answ. In this have they apparently lyed , for Christ was persecuted to Death of the World , but so are not I. Horne nor T. Moor , neither are they unknown of the World as Christ was , for Christ was never known to Preach in a Steeplehouse by an Hour-glass for Tyths , or so much in the Year in Leiw of them , like the Parish Priests and Deceivers , who are out of the steps of the true Ministers , who walked after Christs example , & not after the hireling Priests example , who Preach for hire , and gifts , and reward as these men do : And rather than I. Horne will freely suffer by the World as Christ did , take heed that he fall not to the Common-prayer-book . And to our calling I. Horne a Priest , he sayes , if we mean he is a Priest of the order of Aaron , a Levitical Priest , we say evidently false . Answ. If he be not a Priest of the order of Aaron , then he plainly appears to be a false Priest , seeing that in Page 70. he hath pleaded for his taking Tyths , as neither repugnant to Gods Law nor Mans ; as also his practises therein he instances , that the Priests had their several Subburbs and Quarters , when as they that had these were of the Levitical Priesthood , Numb. 35. Which Priesthood I. Horne hath plainly denyed himself to be one of , and yet pleads for Tyths which pertained to that Priesthood which Christ ended , and disanulled the commandment which gave the Tyths , Heb. 7. So what hypocrisie is this I. H. in , who claimes a right to Tyths as both being according to the Law of God and Man , and yet upon that account denies to be called Priest , when as the Law of God calls them Priests that took Tyths , and does not the Law of Man the like ? And does not the Book of Common-Prayer call them Priests ? So that upon this account may I. Horne be called a false Priest , he claiming a right to Tyths as by the Law of God , when as the service of the Tabernacle ( for which they were given to the Prists of Levie ) he is out of Numb. 18. As also he is guilty of the false Priests practises , who Preached for hire and divined for money Mica 3. 11. I. H. and T. Moor the elder and the younger , say , that the false Apostles ( it seems by what the Apostles writes of them 2 Cor. 11. 12. ) they use to boast of their free Preaching , and in Page 71. They say , that the false Apostles were never the better for their Paeaching freely but the worse . Answ. Herein have they plainly perverted that of 2 Cor. 11. 12. for there is no speech of the false Apostles Preaching freely ; see the malice and envy of these accusers , how they envy the practise of the true Apostles and Ministers , which was to Preach freely and not for filthy lucre , ( Mat. 10. 1 Pet. 5. ) Which they have not yet proved the false Apostles did , as they have affirmed , for they ran into covetousness , and were deceitful workers , having the forme of godliness , but denying the Power , 2 Tim. 3. And in their affirming that the false Apostles Preached freely , here they have set the false Apostles above themselves ; for neither I. H. nor Thomas Moor Senior have Preaching freely to boast of , whilst they are setled in Parishes , and taking Tyths and Gifts as the other Priests do , whom they have called greedy dumb dogs , strong to appetite , &c. in their Pamphlet called a Brief Discovery , &c. T. Moor's Principle Page 2. That sin is in the believer as a natural heritage from Adam while he is in this mortal body ; and to prove it , he brings , Rom. 7. 17 , 20. for I know that in me that is , in my flesh dwelleth no good thing ; and that it was not he that did sin , but sin in him , and saith there 's his natural heritage . To which I Answer , Herein hath he wrested the Scripture , for Paul did not say that sin was in him as a natural heritage from Adam while he was in the mortal body , neither did he own it as his natural heritage , for while it was in his flesh it was his burthen , ( after that he was turned to the Spirit ) so he waited till it was done away , that he could witness the Creature delivered from sin and become new in Christ Jesus , who redeems out of the first Adams state and nature . And where we laid down this as T. Moors Principle , that their nature is restored in Christ , and that their nature is a filthy nature , and Christ took upon him their nature , this they say is falsely expressed and perverted , and yet I. H. and T. M. a little after say thus , viz. That our nature , kind or being , as in us , not in Christ , is corrupt and filthy in it self , yet Christ took upon him our nature , not as it is filthy in us by sin in it , &c. and they say that we might as well have taxed the Apostle of confusion for saying men by nature do the things contained in the Law . Rom. 2. 14. And yet by nature are Children of wrath , Ephes. 2. 3. To which I say , we may justly tax these men with confusion indeed , but not the Apostle ; for here they cannot discern between the sinful nature and the pure nature ; for the nature of Christ is pure , so that it s not their nature , for their nature is filthy , and therefore it is not in Christ , and their bringing that of Rom. 2. 14. and Ephes. 2. 3. together to prove their confusion , sheweth , that they cannot discern between that nature , by which men do the things contained in the Law , and that nature by which men break the Law , and are Children of wrath , but make as if it were all one : But be sure they are out of that nature by which some did the things contained in the Law since their nature is filthy , and by it they cannot do these things contained in the Law but plead against that state , and for sin to continue in them as their natural heritage while in the mortal body . Again J. H. and T. M. Say , that the Apostle saith not , that Christ in them is the mystery , but the riches of this mystery is Christ in men * the hope of glory not the possession of glory , which is not to be injoyed till his glorious appearing , when these mediums now in use will cease . Answ. So herein would these deceivers put Christ the possession of glory a far off , as a thing not to be injoyed by the Saints till after their decease , till which time also we know they put Christs glorious appearing afar off : But then how was Christ all and in all his believers , and how were they changed from glory to glory , and had the heavenly treasure in earthen vessels , 2 Cor. 4. 7. and 3. 18. if they did not possess his glory , when the riches of the glory of this mystery was Christ in the Saints the hope of glory ? What was not these riches the possession in them too ? How grosly do these men wrong the Saints and their words in counting them not possessors of the glory before their decease , when as the Saints even when they were in the pure hope , then rejoyce they with joy unspeakable and full of glory , 1 Pet. 1. 8. and again after these men aforesaid have so wronged the Saints in counting them not possessors of the glory while here , they go about to prove their corrupt Principle , viz. That sin is a natural heritage in believers so long as they are here ; so that by these mens account , the Saints had not Christ in them as their possession , but sin as their possession , or natural heritage while they lived , which no where the Scripture saith ; how sadly have they herein wronged the Saints , and blasphemed against the Tabernacle of God , which is with his people in whom he dwels . J. H. and T. M. Tell of an instrumental and outward Object , or a medium of faith which they say , is the holy Scriptures , and then they say the last and most in most . and absolute Object is God in Christ , 1 Tim. 4. 10. Rom. 4. 24. And so they say the Object of faith is one . I Answer , If the Scriptures be the outward Object or medium of faith , and God in Christ be the most inmost and absolute Object of faith , then how is the Object of saith one ? What is the Scriptures without and God one ? Or are the Scriptures God ? Here 's confusion indeed , and where does the Scripture say it is the outward Object and medium of faith ? Here these men are come under that confusion they have charged us with ( as according to their own account ) for in Page 59. they charg us with counfounding the Author with the medium , which they call a piece of confusion , when in Page 6. they confess that Jesus Christ is both the Object of faith , and living and enlivening medium by which any comes to God and believe in God , Heb. 7. 25 , 1 Pet. 1. 21. so that in Page 8. they say true in saying that we did wisely to say that their darkness and confusion may easily be seen , for so it may , who after in their false inference are telling of some being guilty of the imperfection of wit-lesness , because they have in them their guts that be wit-less , and thus the in lightness and folly appears . I. H. and T. M. accuse us that the true Christ we say p. 10. we desire not the knowledge of ; In which they have shamefully belyed us , for our words are these , that you look for a Christ like your selves , but that he hath no blood in his Body , as you imagine whom we desire not the knowledge of , for such a Christ they look for , as they cannot prove the true Christ to be , in their Affirming him to have a Body of Flesh and bones in the Heavens without blood in it , as many have heard them Publikely . Affirm , which now they would deceitfully deny that they so Affirmed and say . p. 26. that they determined not that his Body is a Body of Flesh and bones , in Heaven without blood , and so they have Preached and published that which they determined not , but were doubtful of ; what deceit and confusion is here ? And how do they leave men in uncertainties ; I. H. and T. M. p. 11. say ; That a man may be a sinner by having sin in him , and yet not sin , and to prove it bring Rom. 7. 20. Paul did not the Evil , &c. To which I say , that their words are as much as if they had said , that a sinner sins not ; What folly is this ? which that of Rom. 7. 20. proves not , for though there was that in Paul which was of God that sinned not , yet when he did the Evil which he would not , then he sinned in doing it . Again these Diviners who are thus Confounded say , he that doth Righteousness is Righteous , as God is Righteous , yea as Christ is Righteous , not because there is no sin in him , but because Christ is made to him of God his Righteousness , and in him he is Righteous , as Christ is Righteous . Answ. What then , hath Christ sin in him if a man be Righteous as Christ is Righteous when he hath sin in him ? this their Assertion would charge both Christ and them that are in him , to have sin in them , which is Blasphemy against Christ ; For in him is no Sin , and he is made manifest to destroy Sin . And to our Question , which was , what one Sin or Sinnes can they lay to Paul or Iames or Iohn's charge , or to any of them , that they were not perfectly freed from before their Decease ; Let them prove some sin which was not destroyed in any of those , before their Decease , or for ever be silent from pleading for sin , or accusing the Righteous as they have done ; as also we asked them what sin can they prove that Nathaniel had in him , when he had no guile in him ? To which I. Horn , and T. Moore Reply page 13. That it is enough that we believe Paul , James and John that they had Sin , and did in many things offend , though we cannot name their Particular offences , as it is to believe multitudes to have dyed , though we know not of what Particular Diseases , &c. and in page 20. They tell us we may as well say , seeing the Scripture Witnesses that the Children of Korah dyed , not in the Iudgement that befell Korah and his Company , what Disease they dyed of , and if they cannot prove that they dyed of some Disease , then they are Confuted if they believe and hold that they dyed , they say . Answ. Here any Impartial Reader may see how these men are Confounded , who have accused the Saints to have Sin in them , and to offend in many things while they lived upon Earth , and now cannot prove any one sin , that they were not perfectly freed from before their Decease , or which was not destroyed in them before their Decease , so that here all may see how Ignorantly they have accused the Saints , and how far short of proving their Assertion they are , for any of the Saints confessing any of their present states or failings , does not at all prove that they were offenders , or had sin in them , so long as they lived , as these said accusers would have it : and as to their saying , that multitudes have dyed though they know not of what Particular diseases , and if they cannot prove that they dyed of some disease , then they are confuted if they believe that they dyed ; to that I say , thus , their comparison will not hold but is foolish , neither will it follow from what we propounded , for it is evident that multitudes have dyed , as it is appointed for men once to dye : But they have not so proved that all the Saints were Sinners , or had sin in them , so long as they lived according to their Assertion . And to their saying that David implies Sins in them though forgiven and covered in whose Spirit is no guile , Psa. 32. 1 , 2. here they have added their own words unto Davids , for he spake of such unto whom the Lord imputeth not Iniquity , whose sin is covered and in whose Spirit is no guile , nor can any say that their sin is thus covered when they sin , or that it shall not be imputed to them while they are guilty of it , for does not the Light of Christ discover in man his sin and reprove him for it , when he is guilty of it ? They that know it can tell though it s hid from these said accusers . Again I. H. and T. M. say David saith no man living is so free from sin as to be justified , if God enter into Iudgment with them , and to prove it bring , Psa. 143. 2. Answ. This is a lye against David , for these are not his words , he said not that no man living is so free from sin as to be justified , &c. For when the enemy had persecuted Davids Soul , and had Smitten his Life down to the Ground , he said enter not into Judgment with thy Servant O Lord , for in thy sight shall no man living be Justified : Which relates to that state wherein the Enemy hath Power , that the life is Smitten down to the Ground , and man cannot be Justified , but thorow the death to that which Judgment is to : So this Scripture they have brought proves no more that the Saints are not freed from sin in this life , then it does that they are not Justified in Gods sight , while in this life , when as the Saints were Justified from that which the Judgments of God was to , and such could say its not I that live but Christ in me . To our saying touching Christs Body that the Body is one , and hath many Members , 1 Cor. 12. 12. I. H. and T. M. answer that 's said both of a Personal and Mistical body or Society in different sences , and then they say true ; also that the body of Christ either Personal or Mistical is not Carnal but Spiritual . REP. Here they darken the minds of the simple by words which they have no Scripture for , for the Scripture no where speaks of Christ having a Personall body , and a Mistical body , and yet both Spiritual . For if he hath two Spiritual bodies , wherefore do they say the one is Personal , and the other Mistical , as if then both were not Mistical ; and whence came that distinction in these words from the Papists ? What is not that which is Spiritual Mistical ? ( according to their own words ) but Paul saith as the body is one and hath many Members , so also is Christ , and now are they many Members yet but one body , 1 Cor. 12. 12 , 20. and there is one body and one Spirit , Ephes. 4. 4. but I. Horn , in a Paper to me saith , that Jesus hath a humane Body and Soul * ( & where does the Scripture say that Christs Soul is humane ? For his Soul is divine and immortal ) & mens natural or earthly bodies are humane , and the Apostle distinguisheth between them and the Spiritual bodies , 1 Cor. 15. 40 , 44. so that Christ hath a glorious Spiritual body in Heaven which few can discern , distinct from mens terestrial or natural bodies , wch are humane ; now if Christ hath a natural or humane body , & a Spiritual body , & his Church too , which is his body , which they call his Mistical body , may they not as well say he hath three bodies ? And then why not as well four or five bodies ? But their Ignorance about the natural and the Spiritual bodies is so plainly discovered in our Book intituled a Brisf Discovery of the Dangerous Principles , &c. in which the Truth is so clearly Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65892e-200 * which is as much as to say , not Christ in them , but Christ in men ; and that his riches is not the possession , what folly is this ? * That which is humane is earth'y , as humanus & homo are of humus the ground from whence man was taken ; so that a humane Soul is an earthly Soul , what then hath Christ both an earthly Soul and a divine Soul in him ? 
A65895	----	Truth tryumphing in a suffering time over deceit and falsehood, or, William Prynn's book of Quakers unmasked clearly detected and the innocency of the people vindicated from the grosse abuses and injuries done them by him ... / by G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1664 Approx. 40 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 10 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-01 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65895 Wing W1970 ESTC R26355 09436510 ocm 09436510 43102 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65895) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 43102) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1320:4) Truth tryumphing in a suffering time over deceit and falsehood, or, William Prynn's book of Quakers unmasked clearly detected and the innocency of the people vindicated from the grosse abuses and injuries done them by him ... / by G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 19 p. Printed for the reader, [London] : [1664] Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Prynne, William, 1600-1669. -- Quakers unmasked. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2002-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2002-05 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2002-06 Olivia Bottum Sampled and proofread 2002-06 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-07 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion TRUTH TRYUMPHING IN A SUFFERING TIME OVER Deceit and Falsehood . OR , William Prynn's Book of Quakers Vnmasked , clearly detected , and the Innocency of the People Vindicated from the Grosse Abuses and Injuries done them by him . This is occasioned upon W. P. his said Book ( with his Additions to it in Reply to John Audland ) being lately divulged . This for the Information of the NATION : By G. W. Printed for the Reader . Truth Tryumphing in a suffering time over Deceit and Falshood . COnsidering the mighty power and good hand of our God in preserving and prospering us in his way and work , and how he hath enlarged the borders of his Sanctuary amongst us , and how far short our persecutors have fallen of effecting their evil designs against us , whereby they have sought our Ruine and Destruction from being a people , which the Lord God hath prevented and frustrated , notwithstanding the many Enemies , Persecutions , Afflictions , and Tryals we have met withall and do undergo : If the hearts of the wicked were not set in them to do wickedly , because Judgement is not speedily executed upon them , they might consider their way , and cease joyning hand in hand against the seed of the Righteous , and not smite with the fist of wickednesse , nor so beset the Righteous on every side , as if they would swallow them up quick , and destroy them from amongst men ; for whilst Satan is permitted to make use of some of his Instruments to belie , ●lander , and reproach us● and to render us as odious as he and they can , that they may stir up and Instigate others of his Instruments to persecute and oppresse us by outward Penalties , Sufferings , Imprisonments , Banishments , and what not , to the utmost of their power . Now if the Lord God h●d not been , and were not on our side , what would become of us ? Who could sustain us in all these troubles but he alone , whose faithfulnesse fails not , and whose Love is continued unto them that fear him and hold their Integrity in him , and walk in his way and path , and abide in his truth which is the same still , and changes not , and such do not gad abroad to change their way , but do confide in his name and power in which is our defence , in the midst of all our Tryals and Afflictions ; and in his Salvation we have Joy and Tryumph over all un●lean spirits and lying tongues , and over all the deceits of false hearts , hypocrites , time servers , men-pleasers , and deceitful workers , who ●eek to curry favour and ingratiate the●selves in with the powers , and such as be uppermost , by railing● reviling , and belying the persecuted and despised people of God , who are so deeply exposed to suffering at this day ( which course of proceeding against the sufferers is a work of as base a spirit as is amongst men ) among which Railers and Revilers , I fi●d one William Pryn●e , Esq ( so written ) not one of the least , as hereafter is briefly made manifest in the sequel hereof , upon exam●nation of his false Charges and Accusations ( together with his p●etended proofs thereof ) against us [ the suffering people call●d Quakers ] which being so very grosse and apparently false , I would be as brief as I may about t●em . And now mark the Title of Will●am Prynne his Book , and his Charge upon which he grounds his matter against the Quakers ( so called ) viz. The Quakers unmasked and clea●ly de●ected ●o be but the Spawn of Rom●sh Frogs , Iesuits , and Fra●ciscan P●p●sh F●yers , sent from Rome to seduce ●he i●●ox●ca●ed and g●dd●-head●d E●glish Nation . I answer , how false and slanderous this accusation is thousands in this Nation may judge , as also our Life , Cove●sation , Doctrine , Writings and Testimonies and the suffering of several of our Friends under the Pope both in France and Rome , where some till they dyed did manifest this Charge to be false ; and how can any suppose the rest of this matter to be truth which is grounded hereupon , when the very ground of his Book is a ●●ie , which though it hath been detected several years ago , yet i● is now re-printed and enlarged , and brought forth as if it were still pertinent to us and the English Nation ; which he saith is ●n●oxicated and giddy-headed , and so he hath not only set hims●lf as a Judge over us , but over the whole Nation , and in his ●irst and second pages tells of multitudes of R●mish Wo●ve● , Locus●s , Ca●er●●llars of all Sects , Order● , as Iesuits , Franciscans , Benedict●nes , Dom●nican● and the like , come f●e●ly over in whole Troops from For●aign Seminaries and Cell , that act their several ●a●ts and Pagean●s on the Th●a●re of our d●st●acted English Church and S●ate , to bring both of them to Ruine under al sorts of disguises without any wa●ches or searches at all , to seclude or detect , &c. Mark here how he hat● ce●sured and reflected upon the English Church and State , and is n●t ●his a di●paragement and reproach to the Government ●hereof , which had we or some called Sectaries spoken thus much , what would it have been deemed● would it no● have been counted Seditious , if not worse ? And if this be true that he saith , ( which I refe● to the judgements of both Rulers and People of England . ) what reason have we to conform to such a distracted Church , that these he counts Romish wolves , Locusts and Jesuits have so much power over ( if his words be true ) or any to be compelled thereto● for would you not count him a mad-man that would follow a distracted Woman for his guide and leader ( especially in matters of Salvation ) or them mad-men that would compel others to follow such a one ? And now le● us ex●mine his p●oof for his aforesaid Charge and Accusation against the Quakers● which is an Information of George Cowl●●●aw of Bristol , taken upon his Oath 22. of ●anuary 1654. which he informeth from one Coppinger ( as he saith ) a Fryer of the Fra●ciscan Company , who should tell this Cowl●shaw that he had been a● London for some Moneths , and had been at all ●he Churches and Meetings● publick and ●rivate that he could hear of , and that none came so near him as the Quakers , &c To which I answer , Cowlisha●'s Oath of a bare report ( if it be true that such a thing was reported ) was no sufficien● evidence to convict the Quakers ( so called ) of being guilty of W. P. his Charge aforesaid , nor for him to passe such a severe Sentence and Judgment upon them , nor to go about to instigate the Magistrates to persecute or suppresse them as he hath done : For if another should come and swear that W. Pr●nne affirmed that the Q●akers are but the spawn of Romish F●o●s and 〈◊〉 ; doth it prove his Affirmation or Charge true ? He hath shewed himself worse then the very heathen in this thing , to take a mans Information against people behind their backs , as sufficient for their conviction , whilst the accused were not present to answer face to face before their accusers : For the Romans Law did not condemn any man before a fair hearing and tryal , and should men proceed thus illegally , or this manner of inveighing against a people , be admitted of , or owned as rational ; then who could escape his false censures and unjust judgments . For Christ told his followers , that men should revile them and persecute them , and say all manner of evil of them falsly for hs names sake . Now if any should have sworn that they had all manner of evil spoken of them , could th●t be sufficient to prove them guilty of all manner of evil ? No sure , but the quite contrary , he told them they were blessed ●hen they so suffered . And further , mark his Information from ●oppinger ; That being at a Meeting of the Quakers , he there met with two of his acquaintance in Rome which were of the same Franciscan Order and Company , that were now become chief Speakers amongs● th● Quakers , and that he himself haed spoke amongst them in London about 30. times , and was well approved of amongst them ; To which ● say , these things being known to be so notoriously false , as many in this City know , that little need be said to them ; neither need we go about to prove a Negative or denyal of them , for bot● the weaknesse and fallacy of his matter is very apparent , and had he ●amed these he calls chief Speakers , it would further have appeared that he had notoriously belyed the Quakers , because all ●hose that are owned as Ministers or Speakers amongst ●hem ( who have gone forth publickly in the work ) are so apparently known , that many would have been able to have confu●ed this false Information of their being either Jesuits or any whit ●elated to them in their way or Orders ; but it seems the concealing of their names was in pollicy to make the Lying story more credible , which how apparently it contradicts it self , any tha● are rational may judge : where after Coppinger told Cowli●●aw that none came so near him as the Quakers , and that t●o of the Franc●scan Order was chief Speakers amongst them , and that he was well approved of amongst them ; yet after this , page 4. That this Coppinger told him two or three times , that if he d●d love his Relgion and soul , he should not hear them , &c. Look here what Contradiction here is● and how plainly the Quakers are hereby cleared f●om being s●ch as before they were Charged to be , and that they do not own ei●her the Fryers or Jesuits ; neither are their Speakers such , for if they were , could it be a likely story that a ●ranciscan Fryer should disswade a man from hearing them , and that a● he loved his Religion and soul ; see what is become of ● . Prynn● story and proof against the Quakers , and whether it be sufficient thereupon to give notice to those in present power to proceed against them under pretence of preventing such dangerous growing mischiefs which unrighteously he chargeth upon the Qua●ers . And thus a lying● slandering , and persecuting spirit ha●h uttered forth its Rancour and Venome against an Innocent people ; and should the Magistrates be led by him and such malicious spirits , as to be perswaded and ruled by them , what would become of the peaceable Subjects , and of this Nation in general ? Though he , and such Time-servers , Hypocrites , and Men pleasers who can turn any way with the times for their own Ends and Pre●erment , are Instruments fit enough ( Iudas-like ) to serve the persecuting spirit , and to do the persecutors work and drudgery against the poor and despised people whom the Lord is with ; but they whose work and service is managed by such , let them mark the End of their work in the day of the Lambs wrath , when they that have taken Counsel together against the Lord and his anointed shall have a recompence of reward according to their doings , and when the Kings of the Earth , great and mighty men and chief Captains , and both every bond and free-man , shall hide themselve in the Dens , and in the Rocks of the Mountains , and say to the Mountains and Rocks , Fall on us and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the ●hrone , and from the wrath of the Lamb , Rev. 6. Here neither Masters nor Servants , that have a hand in this work , and have but the Mountains to fly to , shall be able to hide themselves . And as touching the exception that Iohn Audland gave against Cowlishaw's Informa●ion and Oath aforesaid , as proving it untrue ; where ● . A. said , That two of them reproach●ully called Quakers , came from the North in the Moneth of Iune , and came into Brist●l the 12. day of the Moneth called ●uly , 1654. Which plainly enough proves the Information from Coppinger and Cowlishaw false ; where Coppinger in the Moneth of September spoke of their being to come to Brist●l within a Moneth or three weeks following , and the other denying that any Quakers had been in Bristol before their discourse in September , whereas two of them were there above a Moneth before , in the Moneth called Iuly , and had Meetings , where they did publish the truth . But William Prynne to colour over and glosse this false Information against the Quakers , to make the Nation believe it for truth , he saith of these two , called Quakers , being at Meetings at Bri●●o● on the 13th . of Iuly , That ●hat was unknown to Cowlishaw and most others , &c. And that they spake to ●h●se people not under the ●ame or notion of Quakers , but only of Anabap●ists and Independents , and that in September● or at that time they began to take upon them the ●ame of Quakers , &c. To which I reply , now m●rk what silly shuffling he hath ●ere made to prove the former Information an● Oath true , a● if its being unknown to Cowlisha● that they were in Bristol in Iuly , did prove his flatly denying them to have been there before Sep●em●er true : For his not knowing that they were there manifests that he spake both unadvisedly and without knowledge , ●nd gave that in upon his Oath which was false , which seems to be done more out of prejudice against the pe●ple called Q●●kers , then either honesty or truth : So as ● . A. is neither guilty of slander nor double Lie in his detecting this Information and Oath of ●owlis●aw , as falsly W. P. hath accused him , for who but one in prejudice and enmity , would have given such a confused and false Information upon Oath against us . [ But ' ●is no strange thing to us to be reviled and sworn against , for as Da●i● said , Mine ●e●em●es repr●a●h me all the da● , and they that ●re m●d against me are s●orn aga●nst me , Psal 102 8. ] And how ap●arently false is it also to say that they spoke to those people th●n not under the name or notion of Quakers , but only of Ana●aptists and Independents , and that they began to take upon them the name of Quakers at the time of September , which is a double falsehood ; for they were known to go under that name in th● North long before they came to Bri●●ol , as also Coppinger , as he saith in September , told of being at a Meeting of the Quakers in London , and at all the Churches and Meetings publick and private ; and they did not take upon them that name as falsly is said , but it was put upon them at first by persecutors and scoffers , as I. A. hath well said of us whom the world reproachfully calls Quakers● who were not moved of the Lord to come to seduce the people of Bris●ol , as falsly W. P. accuseth I. A. with averring , pag. 35. Wherein his slander is so apparent that he that runs may read it : And as for Iohn Au●la●d whom he hath reviled● he was a faithful Servant of Christ and true Prophet , who lived and die● in the faith , and whose Memorial will be forever blessed● when William Pry●n ● will be had in contempt and perish among t●e wicked Hypocrites and Men pleasers , whose end shall be a●cording to his works , and whose portion will be amongst those spoken of in Rev. 21.8 . ●f he repent not . And in his repro●ching them for coming together as he saith like the Franciscan Fryers , And as the Quee●s Franc●s●a●s did here of late . Is this a ●ufficient Argument against us ? Did not the Disciples of Christ for a time go two and two togethe● ? And what i● the Franciscans or any in the Apostacy did or do imitate such a practice , does it follow that all are wrong that do it , or that it is to be condemned in it self when practised by such as are true Ministers ? And so comparing his accusing us in several things with what Copp●nger said , whom he makes the Original of his Information and matter against us , they appear to be very like , and both strangers to us and our principles ; for if Co●pinge the Franciscan Fryer ( as he saith ) told his ●nformant ( who gave his Information upon O●th against us ) that if he did love his Religion and Soul he should not hear us , how like the Franciscan Fryer W. P. is , and how he helpeth them in their work : For it seems they would not have men to hear us , no more would he , but would have us persecu●ed and supprest by the Magistrates . And farther , mark how after he hath positively from the Lying story concluded the Quakers to be Jesuits and ●ranciscan Fryers , he saith page 5. Th●● which gives g●eat Ca●se o● suspicion , tha● they are ei●he● disgu●sed Franciscan Fryers , or their seduced Disciples , &c. Mark here how poorly he comes off , and how silly and feeble his matter is , is easie to see , who now makes that a suspicion which before he had so positively concluded : And if I. A. did not write Grammatical sense in coupling two Verbs singular with [ US ] a p●ural as W. P. saith , then it appears he is not a Jesuit , nor such a one as he hath accused him for ; for such were wont to be deemed great ●chollars by the ●riests and others ; but it seems I. A. did stand more upon the truth of his matter then strictnesse in words : And another of William Prynns proofs against the Quakers so called , is , That their coming out of the No●●h is a shrewd Argument of their badnesse , and for it brings that Scripture , Ieremiah 1.14 . Chapter 4.6 . Chapter 6.1 , 22. That out of the North an Evil shall break forth upon all ●he Inhabitan●s of the Land , and great destruction shall be from the North. In which he hath perver●ed these Scriptures , for this was intended to Ierusalem and the Land of Iu●ah , Ier. 1.15 . And proves nothing against us , as to prove us either Jesuits , Popish Priest , or Recusants : But and if that great Destruction spoken of sha●l come upon this Land , and that North from whence it shall c●me be Westmerland , as William P●ynne applyed that Scripture , then how shall he and such as he escape , who hath so much reviled the North , saying , All Evil comes from the North ; But he might otherwise have con●idered what hath been said and Pr●phesied concerning the North , and how accordingly tydings a●e gone forth of the North which does trouble the beast , Dan 11.44 And now the persecutor and his followers , such as he is , are t●oubled , when those are come forth of the North that shall spoil Babylon , and the Lord will gather his Seed out of the North Countries and all Countries where it hath been scattered , Ier. 23.8 . Will●a● P●ynne might have stopt his mouth from reviling the Innocent Servants of the Lord , and his faithful labourers whom he hath sent forth of the North , and his Seed which he hath raised up in these Northern Islands . Again , W. P. Saith Westmerland is well known to have abounded with I●suit● , Popish Priests , Fryers , Re●usan●● , and persons popishly affected , ever si●ce the Reformation ; Witness the Rebellion of the Ea●l of Westmerland , and the Northern Pa●ists under h●m , ●o advance the ●opish Relig●on , and destroy Queen Elizabeth , and the Protestant Reformation , Anno 1569. With the late power of the Lord William Edward , Ducket , Legborne , — Fleming ; and other Popish Families in that Count● . I answer , This proves nothing against the Quakers , so called , whose innocency and peaceable deportment bo●h in Westmerland and other Counties , doth clear them in that particular : And therefore , to accuse the innocent , because some ●f anot●er judgement ( or such as we disown ) have been Rebellious , this is no good Argument nor proof against them . And ●s for the power that some Popish ●amilies ( or these aforesaid ) had or have there , which he mentions , that 's no proof against us ; for from whence had they their power , and in whose name did ●r do they exercise it , whom he mentions as his proof for Westm●rland abounding with Jesuits , how will W. P. answer this if he be called in question ; yet I do not believe but that he wrongs Westm●rl . in accusing that County with abounding with Jesuits , Popish Priests , &c. ever since the Reformation ( as he calls it ; ) And as for his concluding that they may justly fear an Emanation of Jesui●ical , Franciscan Frogs , and Emissaries from Westm●rland . Now ●o ●his , I say his groundlesse fear proves nothing against us , no more ●hen his ●ormer frothy stuff a●ainst u● , and his Fears and Jealousies he pretends against the Quakers arise but from his own evil ●eart , whose confusion and the groundlesnesse of his stuff is evident , whilst one while he concludes the Quakers to be such , at another whi●e he does but suspect or fear them to be ( as he pretends , ) And his saying that Mr. Tillam a Popish Priest ( as he saith of him ) avers in Print that these Quaking Agonies were a●rived from the Fran●iscan Fryers , &c. Mark what silly proofs he brings again●● us , this Tillam is a man that hath writ against us , and hath been always opposite to us and our principles , which if he be a Popish Priest ( as he saith ) then this proves that we are no Papists , nor in any of their Orders , as he slanderously accuseth us ; but rather W. P. is very much addicted to Popery , he hath so much taken up their work with Coppinger and Tillam against us . And as touching Quaking and Trembling , or Shaking which W. P. in page the 7th makes his chief proof against us , and saith , Tha● no●hing in his judgment more clearly detects the Popish Fryers , Priests , and Iesuits to be the principle Inventors , Erectors of Acters , Rulers , and Speakers amongst our Quakers , and other new Sects . Answer . Here again without any ground or reason he hath slandered us , and hath shewed himself ignorant of the Scriptures and the power of God , who regards such as are poor and of a contrite spirit , and trembles at his ●ord , Isa. 66.2 . ( Which we are real witnesses of ) and how many of the Prophets and holy men of God did quake and tremble , the Scriptures do evidently testifie . And in page 20.21 . One of W. P. His main Arguments against the Quakers to prove that the Jesuits , Priests and Franciscan Fryers have a principal hand in erecting and promoting them , is , that Ignatius Loy●l●o the Father of Jesuits , and first Founder general of their Order ( as he saith , ) P●e●ended a Divine call from God , and cast off his costly Ap●arel , which he gave to the p●or , Cloa●hed hims●lf in cou●se sackcloth , wandred up and down professing the study of poverty , pennance , mortification , and co●tempt of the world , leading a most Aus●ere life for a time ; mostly eating little else but course bread , and drinking nothing but cold water , and p●eaching often Gratis in the open Streets , and without any Ordination or License at all from the Bishops or Clergy , exhor●ing them to Repentance , &c. And is not this the very practice of our Quakers and Shakers now , who exactly imitate him herein ( he saith . ) Answer . What of all this , what ever Ign●t●us was in himself , we ●eed not dispute that : But were these things evil in themselves that he professed , as Mortification , Contempt of the world , Pre●ching Gra●is in the open Streets , Exhorting to Repentance , &c. If they were not evil , but Lawful in themselves , what does it prove against the Quakers that they are Jesuits or Deceivers ; No sure , for then it will reflect upon all that professe and ●old the truth in Righteousnesse , and so it proves as much against all the Servants of God as us ; because some hath professed and withheld the truth in unrighteousnesse : And then all Christendome that professe Christ are Papists , because the Pope and Jesuits professe him , is this William P●ynns Logick , he might have spared his Labour of such silly work as this : Much more might be 〈…〉 she●●i● Absurdities herein , but let the Judicious judge o● his Ma●ter . And what a silly busi●esse is it for ●im to ●ell us of Igna●●●● hi● Pre●ching o●●en Gratis in the open S●ree●s wi●hout Ordi●●tion from the ●ishops , for needed he Ordination from the● to Preach Gratis ; No sure , for it is those Priests that seek fat Benefits and Living● , Tithes and filthy Lucre for their Preaching , th●t must have Ordi●ation from ●he Bishops ; but did not this man ●●●merly speak and write agai●st B●shops ? And in his 8th . page accuseth our Books of Invectives against their Minis●ers , Church , Presbyterian Government , &c But it seems as if he were not aware of this , it being w●it when that Government was up , or how it might reflect upon his present interest with the times ; which though it be now come forth with his Additions as Frothy , Vain , and Foolish as his first part of his Book ; but considering how much talk we have heard of this our Opposer , and of his former suffering with Bur●on and Bastick , and having his Ears cut , he might have shewed more tendernesse to us , and such as are under suffering then he hath done ; and not so have slandered and reviled us : But this we have seen , that such as play the Hypocrites in turning with the Times , and seeking to gratifie them in power upon every turn , by persecuting the Innocent , they grow the most hardned and benummed in their Consciences , and the fitter to do Iudas his work ; And in page 15.16 . William P●ynne tells the Magistrates of suppressing all Heresies and Errours , By Law and penalties , and of the Civ●l Magistrates Coer●ive power and Iurisdiction in Matters of Religion , and bids them search after , restrain , secure , and pers●cute all romish Foxes , Wolve● , &c. A●cording to our Laws and Statutes in force against them , &c. And be as vigilant to secure Gods and our Churches cause and interest , &c. Answer . But he intended this against us called Quakers , and we do not own him to be any Competent witnesse or Judge against us , ( ●hough he hath assumed both , ) neither is his Evidence true , but altogether false against us ; and he a slanderer and forger of meer Falsehoods , and hath also shewed a very malicious and inve●erate spirit , in going about to cause men to be persecuted , or compel●ed by penal Laws for matter of Conscience or Judgement ; for that way of Compulsion is neither the way to suppresse Errours or Heresies , nor to convince the Judgments either of such as are Papists or others , but the way to make them Hypocrites like himself : ( And it s more meet to endeavour to convince an● reclaim Jesuits , and such as be in Errour to bring them to Repentance , then to destroy them , for that 's the way to bring them sooner to Hell , if they be destroyed , and perish in their Errour ) and how is their Churches cause secured by this way of Compulsion or prosecution of penal Laws against men that di●sent in matters of Conscience or Worship ( though such as are crimin●l Offenders , as Plotters and Conspirators the ●ivil Law reaches ) when he confesseth the English Church is distracted , page 21. And that Ignatius his Disciples ( or the Jesuits ) have made most Christian Kingdoms Churches ( especially our own of late years saith he ) both to quake , and tremble , and shake them in pieces , as in his 22. pag. Now mark here also what a sad Church this is which he would have men forced to ; a Church that 's made ( by those he himself counts deceivers both to quake and tremble ( this is he that hath so much Reviled for quaking and trembling as being derived from Rome , and the Popish Priests and Jesuits because thereof ) and such ●hurches as are shaken in pieces in thi● manner are not built upon the Rock , nor such as against which the Gates of Hell cannot prevail : And such Churches as these that cannot stand without carnal force a●d Compulsion , we have no cause to Conform to ; for it appears plainly that their Weapons , and Arms and Defence are no● of God but of man , not Spiritual as the Saints and true Churches were , but Carnal . And how is it in the Magistrates Coercive power to suppresse Errours and Heresies , and to secure the Churches cause , when they do not pretend to Infallibility of judgment in spiritual matters ; And was there not great persecution under the Presbyterian Government , how did that secure their Church ? And did not we greatly suffer by them ? And how hath our opposer contradicted himself in this matter , where he in the same 16. p. gives 4 Cautions recorded in the Gospel ( as he saith ) as the best preservatives against seducers quoting Rom. 16.17 , ●8 2 ●●m . 3.13 , 14. Eph. 4.14 . 2 Ioh. 10.11 2 ●hes . 2.9 Now mark , if these Scriptures must be the best preservative against seducers , which do not tell of the Magistrates Coercive power in Religious matters , nor of their suppressing Errours and Heresies . ( See also pag 32 ) How 〈…〉 own himse●f , as also considering what this W. P● saith pag. 27. of Gregorius Baderus ● provincial of the Jesuits , &c. and their Counsels , and seconded with their practises in Ejecting , Imprisoning , Banishing , Suppressing and Persecuting all the Protestant Ministers in Bohemia , in the years 1602 , 1607 , 1621 , and 1652. So it appears the Papists used this manner of proceeding , and would not W. ● . do the same , as Imprison , Banish , &c. This might convince him what Spirit and Church it is that is guilty of persecution , & is maintainted by it , and by such manner of proceeding as Imprisoning and Banishing men for thei● Consciences ; that 't is not the true Church nor Spirit , as also all that professe to be Protestants may take notice of these proceedings , and what a blemish and disaragement it brings upon both their Church and State , to follow such harsh and cruel proceedings against men for their Consciences . And moreover both the Government and people of this Nation of England may farther take notice how W. P. doth reflect upon them , and consider whether or no his matter tends to the peace and good of the Church and State thereof . Mark in his 4. & 5. pag he tells us of Multitu●es of Rom●sh Emissaries and Vermin , Franciscan Fryers and Iesuits , &c. That they have their several m●ssions and directions into all parts from their Generals and Superiours , residing commonly in London , where they have a Consistory and Cou●sel sitting that rules all the affairs of the things of England , besides fixed officers in every Diccese , &c. Answer . Both Magistrates and people of Englan● may here mark what a sad State he represents them and this Nation in , if all the affairs of the things of England be ruled by the Council of the Romish Emiss●ries , &c. And whether this doth not tend to raise troubles and dis●ractions in this Nation ; and his quoting Cr●mwells Speech in the painted Chamber , Sept. 4. 1654. As if Cromwel was a man of great Credit and Esteem with him : But if he should say that this was writ in the time of the former power , then why doth his Book come out now , being printed in 1664. with Additions to it of like nature , and hath he not owned t●e Presbyterian Government , what Confusion is he fallen into ? But in his Post-script , pag. 32. He speaks to our present Governours and Sword men , and their Posterity against tollerating these Jesuitical Fiery Treacherous Agents , which unjustly he would make them believe us to be ; so as its evident he reflect● upon the present Goverment in this particular ; And in page 25.26 . W. P. in his Post-script , tells of the Jesuits sending forth their Emissaries and Agents , &c. To be present ●n the Senates , Parliaments , and Councils of those of the Reformed Religion , &c. And in page 32● of their predominating in most Councils and places , &c. To which I say , if this be true , that the Emissaries of Rome predominates in most Councils and places of those of the Reformed Religion , or those called Protestants ; then this proves that we called Quakers are no Papists , nor Jesuits , nor Romish Emissaries , nor derived from thence ; for if we were , we should not suffer as we do , if his words were true that they have so much power and predominancy ; and if the Church , Religion and State of Englan● will soon be utterly overturned , and all disunited one from another by the Popes Emissaries , if they be not speedily repressed ( as he saith ) page 5. & 32. ( it seems then their Church is not in the unity of the Spirit ) and what a weak miserable estate doth he here represent the Church and State of Engl. to be in : And whether or no this his representing the Pope and his Emissaries to have so much power and predominancy in the Church and State of England doe● not plainly tend to encourage them to proceed and endeavour the obtaining of the sole power and Government i●to ●heir own hands ; do but mark the tendency of his matter , and whether it can rationally be deemed safe for this Natio● or Government to admit of such as this W. P. ●o be in any place of tru●t , either in Parliament or other , or to divulge ●uch principles , who doth represent them in such a sad S●ate , as if they were almost all over-swayed by the Pope : And thu● gives encouragement to him and his Emissaries , which tends to incense a great part of the Nation who are dis-●ffected with that way of Popery , and to make Commotions , Tumults , and Divisions , which unjustly he would Charge us with ; howbeit we who are called Quakers are clear and Innocent from owning the Pope or his Supremacy , or power , or having any such union ●r correspondency with his Emissaries , Priests , or Jesuits , as to know any such things of them as their having such Councils , order and sway in this Nation , as W. P. signifyeth , which intimates that he hath more correspondency or privacy with them then we , for we know no such things , therefore is it not fit that he should be called in question before Autho●ity to discover what he knows of such things ; and those whom he accuses to come face to face , that things of this kind may be made manifest and brought to Light , and what 's wrong be disproved of according to Equity and Truth , and the Nation better informed if he hath mis-represented the State thereof in these matters● and that he may give forth a recantation thereof : And note that throughout W. P his Pamphlet I find many more grosse slanders , lies , stories , absurdities , and abuses against ●s called Quakers and others , some of which are as followeth . Page 2. As false it is that the Quakers are derived from prophane Belshazar , Dan. 5.9 . and those that David prayes against , Ps. 6.9 , 2● . False it is that they are brought into and set up in England by Franciscan Fryers and Jesuits . Page 3. False it is that they are the chief Speakers among the Quakers . Page 4. False it is that the Romish Emissaries and Vermin are the chief Speakers and Rulers in most separate Congregations : And this is intended to set the Magistrates to persecute them , which shews a malicious Spirit . Page 5. False it is that the Quakers have done much hurt in Bristol : False it is that they endeavour to draw people into Parties , Factions , Sects , &c. Page 6. A falshood and slander it is that they perswade people to desert their lawful calling and imployments , and to embrace an idle monkish lasie life , &c. False it is that they refuse to shew any honour or humble deportment towards Magi●trate● , for our harmless deportme●t and subjection to them either actively or passively , shews the contrary , though it stand not in the vain and foolish ceremonies and complement● which men in the lust of the eyes and pride of life use : but in reality and substance . False it is that it is the Quakers Doctrine that the Saints are able to stand perfect in their own power , for their perfection is in Christ who is Gods power , and this perfection we must own , though Anti-christ and his followers deny it . Pag. 8. And an old lie and slander it is that the Quakers use inchanted potions , Braclets , Ribbonds , Sorcery and Witchcraft to intoxicate men . Pag. 10. False it is that some of the Quakers going 〈◊〉 for a time ( which was a sign against Hypocrites and wicked persons ) was derived from the Pagan Idol Priests or the Devil ( see Isa. 20. ) And as for Iohn Gilpin who turned into lying Imaginations and wickednesse wherein he was denyed and rejected by the Quakers , he and his relation and conversion ( or being reclaimed ) to the Priests was sufficiently manifest in and about Kendal and that Country , as also the Priests of N●w Castels book against us , Called the p●rfect Pharisee , hath been answered and confuted long since , and what is become of Samuel Hammond and the rest of those Priests now ? Seeing W. P. gives such great credit to them for his proof against us . Page . 11. Also a grosse slander it is that the Quakers are guilty of blasphemous erronious opinions derived from the very Devil himself , or that they are Hereticks , Schismaticks , or Seducers . Pag. 18. Also his rai●ing against some Women amongst us that hath sometimes spoken the truth publickly , instancing Pope Urbane the III his excommunicating and totally suppressing by his Bull , Anno 1631. some Women who did preach publickly in England an● elsewhere● this manifests how like or near a-kin he is to the Pope ; howbeit this doth not overthrow Womens proph●●ying or preaching the truth when led thereunto by the Spirit , according to the promise , Ioel. 2.28 , 29. And the Apostles not permitting the Women at Corinth to speak in the Church , 1 Cor. 14. was upon a particular occasion of their forwardnesse and usurping , and not for a general rule to bind all to , pag. 20 & 24. Also a grosse abuse it is to call us Imps of Satan , and say that we study and practice the art of Magick , Sorcery , and consult with the very Devil himself . Pag. 38. Also that Heaven , Hell , and the Resurrection of the dead is denyed by any Quakers ( or any that are really of us ) we look upon as a meer Forgery to render us odious , and that which in it self in not owned by any of us ; and his quoting the Diurnals for his proof ( it is not the first nor last lie in the Diurnal ) and many more slanders and falshoods are cast upon us which I omit mentioning , with many rambling impertinent stories in his book , gathered out of Popish books and Histories which do not touch us . Now W.P. it is a wonder that thou shouldst so much accuse us with Railing , and didst not see thy own Railing and Reviling of us like one in out-rage , whose matter against us clearly appears to be grounded neither upon reason nor truth , but meerly proceeding from a malicious Spirit which it is high time for thee to repent of , if any place of repentance be to be found for thee ; for thy injuries and abuses done to us , all sober people that sees them are ashamed of . Eccles. 10.1 . Dead flies cause the oyntment of the Apothecary to send forth a stinking savour , so doth a little folly him that is in Reputation for Wisdom and Honour . London the 7 th . Moneth 1664. THE END . 
A65884	----	A rambling pilgrim, or, Profane apostate, exposed being an answer to two persecuting books, falsly entitled, I. The pilgrim's progess from Quakerism to Christianity, II. A modest defence, with an epistle dedicatory to his bountiful benefactors / by G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1700 Approx. 156 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 31 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2006-06 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65884 Wing W1951 ESTC R20202 12291607 ocm 12291607 58909 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65884) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58909) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:21) A rambling pilgrim, or, Profane apostate, exposed being an answer to two persecuting books, falsly entitled, I. The pilgrim's progess from Quakerism to Christianity, II. A modest defence, with an epistle dedicatory to his bountiful benefactors / by G.W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [8], 48 p. Printed and sold by T. Sowle ..., London : 1700. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to George Whitehead. cf. NUC pre-1956. Table of contents: p. [8] Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Bugg, Francis, 1640-1724? -- Pilgrim's progress from Quakerism to Christianity. Bugg, Francis, 1640-1724? -- Modest defence of my book, entituled Quakerism exposed. Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-08 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-01 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2006-01 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Rambling Pilgrim , OR Profane APOSTATE , EXPOSED : BEING An Answer to Two Persecuting Books , Falsly Entitled , I. The Pilgrim 's Progress from Quakerism to Christianity . II. A Modest Defence . WITH An Epistle Dedicatoryto his Bountiful Benefactors . By G. W. a Servant of Christ. Let the lying Lips be made Dumb , which Cruelly , Proudly and Spitefully speak against the Righteous , Psalm 31. 18. LONDON , Printed and Sold by T. Sowle , in White-Hart-Court in Gracious-Street , 1700. AN Epistle Dedicatory . To those of the Clergy , and of the Two Universities , whose Kindness and Bounty Francis Bugg boasts of , in his Pilgrim's Progress , Chap. 15. WHereas the said Francis Bugg appears highly to value himself upon the Countenance of some of the Clergy , in his Contests against the People called Quakers , sounding a Trumpet of the Clergy's Kindness , and being very Bountiful to him ; and particularly of the Bishop of Norwich , upon his Request to him , giving him a Certificate in his Recommendation ( together with his Bounty , which he says was very Considerable . ) Giving also this Account of the Improvement he intended to make of the said Certificate , viz. I was minded to make Application to my Lords , the Bishops of the Church of England , the two Universities , and to some particular Clergy-Men . All which I no sooner asked , than he granted me ; and it pleased God so to open the Hearts of my Lords the Bishops , and Reverend Clergy , that I found help in time of need . These his Incouragements considered , this Epistle is therefore Dedicated to you , who are concern'd therein . Friends , Do you design to promote Christianity indeed ? You must use better Instruments for it than Fra. Bugg , the Author of the said Pilgrim's Progress , whose Progress is apparently from Christianity into Apostacy ; from Truth , and true Charity , into Falshood and Envy : As hath been evinc'd in divers Answers extant , which he could never wipe off ; and is also further manifest in the Sequel . 'T is no small Offence to God , or Injury to Men , to encourage such Agents , as can Forge , Lye , Calumniate and Asperse , under pretence of Contending for the Faith of Christ , and promoting Christianity ; Profanation of the Sacred Name of God and Christ , in idle Romance and Fiction , is no small Dishonour thereto ; I hope your Profession does not allow thereof , or of taking Liberty thereunto ; as this Agent , F. Bugg , is proved to take very largely ; and if you can either Connive at his so doing , or Indulge him therein , how will he and you answer it in the great Day of Account , before the Tribunal-Seat of Christ , the Righteous Judge of Quick and Dead ? What Account will be given for the Violation of these Two Commandments , Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain ; for the Lord will not hold him Guiltless that taketh his Name in vain : And , Thou shalt not bear false Witness against thy Neighbour ; Both which he has notoriously violated in his forged Sermon in my Name , and many other Fictions and Forgeries : Do you allow thereof , or gratify him for the same ? Or is it his own officious , heady Act and Device only ? For what then have you been so very Bountiful to him , and Contributed such Considerable Sums of Money to him ? Is it for his just Demerits , more than others , in devising how to bring Contempt upon the People called Quakers , by Forgeries and Calumnies ; Falsly forming a Judicature , Trial , ridiculous Answers , Pillory , Cage , &c to scandalize honest Men , of good Report , as a Pack of Perjur'd Persons , ( as in his New Rome Arraigned ) for denying his Calumnies and false Accusations ? How should ever Christianity be promoted by such Mockers , who act more like Stage-Players , Merry-Andrews , Jack-Puddings , &c. than sober Christians , or Persons designing to promote Christianity ? And 't will be no Honour for you to promote or abet such Agents ; but procure you great Disgrace , if you glory in such shameful Treatment and Abuse , as this of F. Bugg's , against us . Besides , it will be an Indication of your own Weakness , to manage your Cause ( if not of the Cause it self ) for you to be beholden to such scornful Agents to manage it . What may People think of you ? Has all your Learning fail'd you , that you must needs contribute large Money to a busie Body , for his Scribbling against the Quakers ? Never complain against Illiterate and Lay-Preachers , or Mechanick Ministers , if such an one must be your Champion , who , whilst his great Pretence is to Contend for Christ and the holy Scriptures , can take Liberty to Contradict both , in Practice ; if to Lye , Misrepresent , falsly Vilifie and Reproach , be contradictory to both ; as we are sure , no Lye is of the Truth . And we are not only for Confessing with the Mouth the Lord Jesus , and sincerely Believing with the Heart , that God rais'd him from the Dead , ( Rom. 10. ) but also for a Christian Life and Conversation , agreeable to such Confession , and Believing , as is unto Righteousness ; well knowing , that to make good Confessions , to speak good Words , and live bad Lives , to confess Christ in Words , and deny him in Actions , will not commend or prove any to be true Christians . The Sincerity of our Belief in , and Confession to , the true Messiah , the very Christ of God , ( to whom all his holy Prophets gave witness ) together with the Verity and Divine Authority of the holy Scriptures , as being first given by Divine Inspiration , I say , our Sincerity herein is known to Him who searches and knows our Hearts , however we be misrepresented in these Two main Points , by some ill-affected Persons , perverting , cutting , mangling , and altering the Words , Sayings and Sense of both deceased and living Authors ; which this Agent has been and is prov'd notoriously guilty of , as a Person not Consciencious in his Writing , and frequent Repetitions of the same Refuted Calumnies , still imposing the same over and over , without making Defence thereof , by any serious Answer , Replication or Rejoynder ; his Course of Scribbling being to repeat the same Fallacies and Misrepresentations under divers Models , Titles , Forms and Shapes ; as sometime to make them in Form of a Creed ; another , in the Form of a Trial , in a Court of Júdicature ; another while , in the Form of a Dialōgue ; another while , in the Form of Queries ; another while , in the Form of History ; another while , in the Form of a Sermon : Together with his Scoff : and Jeers , Flouts , Boasts , Challenges , intermixt ; and thus he can make up numerous Books , fill'd with Repetitions of the same Stuff , in divers shapes , without taking any serious notice of Answers or Confutation : And according to his crooked perverse Manner of Writing , picking , mincing , clipping , forging and perverting Words and Sentences . Ill minded Persons may easily abuse , and make the best of Writings look ill . And now , how bitter and envious , and how full of cruel Mocking this Agent is turn'd against us , the said People called Quakers , and with what Contempt he hath writ , concerning the Light within , or in Man , and our Doctrine thereof , that his Self-Condemnation and Apostacy may therein the more appear , please to observe his own solemn Testimony , how expresly contrary it is to his present Treatment of us , the said People ( as it is in his Book , stiled , The Quakers Detected , &c. printed 1686. about Two Years after his leaving our Communion , and Conforming to the Church of England ) as 't is in his own words following , viz. The first Point under Consideration , is , how I came to be a Member of their Society , &c. ( i.e. of the Quakers ) In the beginning they taught , That all Men were enlightned , according to John 1. 9. and that this Light , wherewith Christ had enlightned them , was sufficient , if obeyed , to lead to Salvation ; and that it was the Work of the Ministers of Christ , to turn the Peoples Minds from Darkness to Light , and from the Power of Satan to God : Affirming , That this Light was a sufficient Teacher , Leader and Guide to every Believer , without the help of outward Prescriptions , Forms , Orders and Decrees of Men : Upon these and the like Notions , I became perswaded to make Trial of their Doctrine ; and when I came to see and observe their Practice , Conversations and Deportments in the Beginning , and what Simplicity and Plainness attended their Ministry , I was still more Confirmed , that it was a Dispensation of the Love of God , sent as a Visitation to Mankind . And being thus perswaded , I was resolved to bear the Cross , and did utterly despise the Shame that attended them and their Message ; and was not behind any of my Equals , both in doing and suffering for the Testimony thereof , as some amongst them can still bear me Witness : And in this manner we went on for many Years , and loved one another with Love unfeigned ; and , doubtless , God blessed our Meetings with the Comfortable Enjoyment of his Presence , ( p. 3. ) From which solemn Confession thus made by Fra. Bugg , after he forsook our Communion , and went to the Publick ( as he saith ) it follows naturally , that he did not forsake us because of our Christian Principle or Profession of the Light , or because of our Doctrine , Conversation , Communion or Meetings , or any Dislike had thereof ; but because he deem'd us guilty of Apostacy from our first Principle and Profession ; and that ( by his own Confession ) he did not thereby make his Progress from Egypt into Canaan , appears by his applying to himself the words of Joseph , when in Egypt , viz. But ( I ) can say as Joseph did to his Brethren , Gen. 50. 20. But as for you , ye thought Evil against me , but God meant it unto Good : And Chap. 45. 5. Now therefore be not griev'd , nor angry with your selves , that you sold me hither , ( Quakers detected , p. 8. ) How came F. B. to apply these words to his State , when turn'd from us to the Publick , if he did not think himself then in Egypt , or turn'd from the true Light into Darkness ? But we sold him not thither ; he fled in Winter , when he had let in Unbelief and Fearfulness , because of Suffering and Persecution , which he had felt something of ; but fell into Impatiency and Quarreling under it ; and , having lost Sincerity and Truth , turn'd Envious Temporizer . And because he has so frequently and falsly charg'd the said People with denying Jesus of Nazareth , and Contempt of holy Scripture , I may acquaint you with One or Two Passages more , which concern himself , as recited in my Answer to his New Rome Arraigned , entitled , Innocency Triumphant over Insolency and Outrage , printed 1693. p. 25 , 26. as followeth , viz. And to his saying , The Names Jesus and Christ are given to the Mediator , &c. [ True , but what follow ? ] Therefore ( quoth F. B. ) 't is no Absurdity to say , It was not Jesus Christ for whom the Body was prepared ; it was not Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh , but the Word : John 1. 1. ( Apol. Introd . p. 3. ] And yet he has confessed , it was the Son of God , that took the Body , p. 4. What Confusion and Self-contradiction does the Man blindly run into ? And how contrary to the Apostle John's Testimony is his Doctrine herein ? See 1 John 4. 2 , 3. Every Spirit that confesseth , that Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh , is of God ; and every Spirit , which confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh , is not of God ; but this is the Spirit of Anti-Christ . What Spirit is this in our Adversary , which saith , It was not Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh ? Who was it then ? It was the Word , the Son of God : As if Jesus Christ were neither the Word , nor the Son of God : O horrible Anti-Christianism ! And contrary also to that Martyr , Dr. Barnes his Confession , as cited by F. Bugg himself , p. 4. 5. viz. I believe , that without Man's Will or Power , Christ Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost , and took Flesh of the blessed Virgin Mary . Acts and Mon. p. 610. Now , If Jesus Christ took Flesh of the blessed Virgin Mary , then it was Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh : But it was Jesus Christ that took Flesh ; Therefore 't was Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh. Consequently F. Bugg's Doctrine , That it was not Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh , is Anti-Christian , Anti-Apostolical and Contradictory to the said Martyr's Doctrine . In his Book , stiled , De Christianâ Libertate , Part 2. Chap. 1. he confesseth in the Name and Person of the People called Quakers , That we told them ( i. e. the said People ) that the Scriptures were good , and a true Declaration of those things , which were most surely believ'd by the Apostles , and by us ought to be believ'd ; yet not the only Rule , but still the Spirit of God , which was the first Principle , &c. And many more Confessions he has given to the Truth of our Principles , both with respect to Jesus Christ , his Light , and the holy Scriptures . Now I recommend you to the faithful Witness of Truth in all your Hearts , which will Judge Righteously ; and desire you seriously to peruse the following Treatise , and hear us in our Answers and Defence , as well as our Adversary in his Accusations ; remembering that common Maxim , To Condemn no Man , before he be heard . By a Servant of Jesus Christ , and real Friend to your Immortal Souls , G. Whitehead . London , the 30th of the 4th Month , 1699. The CONTENTS of this Treatise . PART I. OF Francis Bugg's Fictitious , Profane Sermon , in G. Whitehead's Name . From Page 1 , to p. 16. Of our Yearly Meeting . p. 1 , 2. Of the Scriptures . p. 2 , 3. Of one only God , the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit , and the Holy Scriptures . p. 3 , 4. Of Confession of Sin , and Prayer to God. p. 5 , 6. Of the Ten Commandments , and Moral Law. p. 7 , 8. Of his gross Fiction against the Holy Scripture , and the Light within . p. 9. Of his resembling the Mockers , Psalm 35. 21. and 40. 15. p. 9. His Forgery against , William Bingley ; and Ben. Bealing's Certificate . p. 10 , 11. His repeated Forgery about G. Fox , touching the Branch , the Star , &c. p. 12 , 13. Of his Counterfeit Court , and Condemnation . p. 13. His Forgery and Frofaneness , about our Light and Exaltation . p. 14. Of Sam. Fisher's Prophecy , and F. B.'s Malice , and injurious Construction . p. 14 , 15 , 16. PART II. Of the Light of Christ , the Spirit 's Authority , the Holy Scriptures , Ten Commandments , Silent Meetings . p. 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. Of F. B's offence against Light and Conviction ; and his Self-Contradiction , about the Light , Lawgiver , and Head of the Body , the Church , &c. p. 20 , 21 , 22. Of his notorious Abuse about the Ten Commandments . p. 22 , 23 , 24. How to charge F. B. if he will not behave himself , quietly . p. 24. Of his Falshood , Envy , Contradiction and Insolency against the Light , and the Ministers thereof . p. 24 , 25. Of his Calumnies , and accumulated Lyes and Perversions , against the Quakers , compaering them to Jesuits , to be distrusted in all they say . p. 26 , 27. A Certificate on G. Whitehead's behalf , against F. B's idle Detractions . p. 27 , 28. Of his Trumpeting out his Hospitality , and upbraiding our Ministers . p. 28 , 29. Of his blasphemously comparing the Pope of Rome , and the Quakers Light ; and of our Meetings , &c. p. 30 , 31. Of his Fallacy and Abuse in a Quotation out of G. Keith's Way cast up . p. 31 , 32. Of Praying for the King , and our plain Testimony against Plots and Conspiracies , &c. p. 32 , 33. Of F. B's exposing in Print , a Passage of Two Clergy-Men's , against the Liberty granted and Legally confirmed . p. 33 , 34. Of his Pillory and Cage , idle Mockery , Contempt and Folly. p. 34. Of his horrid Calumnies , about a most Damnable Plot , charg'd against our Meetings , &c. p. 35. Of his Hypocritical Asseveration , and presuming to dictate to Authority unjust Restrictions and Limitations , to prevent the Growth of Quakerism , ( as he calls it ) p. 35. 36 , 37. Of his silly and insolent Boasting and Challenging ; and of our Discourse in the presence of the Bishop of Norwich , and some Members of Parliament . p. 37 , 38. His Spirit of Envy , Falshood and Persecution still appearing in other things . p. 38 , 39. A Catalogue of my Answers ( to F. Bugg's Books ) extant in Print . p. 39 , 40. A Brief Answer to Francis Bugg's Book , falsly stiled , A Modest Defence , &c. p. 41. THE Rambling PILGRIM EXPOSED . PART I. THE principal Notice I am concerned to take of Francis Bugg's Pilgrim's Progress , from Quakerism to Christianity ( as he falsly terms it ) is , of his Chap. XIII . Entituled , The Quakers Conversion , G. Whitehead 's Sermon , explaining their ancient Testimonies ; ( of above two printed Sheets ) which G. Whitehead utterly denies , and in good Conscience solemnly testifies against , as a Sermon never preached nor owned by him ; and which Fr. Bugg also knows in his own Conscience , is a Fictitious Romance , presumptuously contriv'd and invented by himself , to ridicule , defame and scandalize both G. W. and the People called Quakers , and their Yearly Meeting , which he calls their Convocation , and The Quakers Synod ; also calling it a Sermon for G. W. to hold forth at their Convocation . He is positive in his first Title , that it is G. W's Sermon ; and as idle , self-contradicting , and false in the other , that it is For him to hold forth ; consequently not G. Whitehead's Sermon , but F. Bugg's Forgery . And as the said fictitious Sermon is compos'd of base Forgery , ridiculous Romance , foul Perversions , gross Lies , idle and sordid Stuff , with many curtail'd and abused Citations out of our Books ; besides his presumptuously Profaning the sacred Name of God and Christ , and the Light within , in his said Forgery . And that it may evidently appear such , I may recite some Passages out of it under the Title of Forgery , and shew , 1. His invented Cut of Pictures about a Table , to represent the Quakers Synod ( as he calls it ) some having their Names over their Heads , and others Deputies . And on the Table two Books Pictur'd , the one stiled , The Journal of G. Fox ; and the other , Church-Canons , on the outsides : Which is a meer Fiction of his own . And in the same Cut , or Figure ( which he entitles , The Quakers Synod ) he feigns G. Whitehead to say , Are the Doors shut ? And W. Bingley to answer , Yea , the Doors are lock'd . And he feigns W. Penn to say , Call over the List : Are none of Truth 's Enemies here ? Then over one he has set B. Bealing , the Scribe . Which are fictitious Inventions of his own . And yet I heard , this Cut has been of a considerable Charge , to ridicule us with such a piece of lying Vanity . 2. He feigns me ( G. W. ) to Preach a Sermon in the said Synod ; some Passages whereof do follow ( with brief Observations thereupon ) viz. Forgery . Beloved , You see what great Mistakes are happened to this People of England , who by following the Doctrine of their blind Guides , have taken Matthew , Mark , Luke , and John , for the Gospel ; that is , Glad-Tidings . No , no , 't is Beastly Ware ; yea , Dust , and Serpents Meat : And this I can prove by two Books , wrot by our Apostle George Fox , &c. ( p. 108 , 109. ) Observe . This is a horrid piece of Forgery ; I never preached this Doctrine in my days , nor do I own it , but abhor calling either Matthew , Mark , Luke and John , or their Gospel-Testimony , or holy Scripture , Beastly Ware , &c. nor did I ever read those Expressions in any of G. F's , or other Friends Books . And for this gross Lye and Calumny , Fra. Bugg has been several times reprehended in Print , and yet still persists in the Repetition thereof ; see my Sober Expostulation , p. 104 , 105. and p. 67 , 98 , 137. and other Answers to him , &c. Forgery . Moreover the Scriptures are so uncertain , that it is questionable , who was the first Pen-man thereof , whether Moses or Hermes ; yea , either or neither , p. 109. Observe . I deny this to be Part of any Sermon of mine , or ever so asserted by me ; There is not only Forgery against me in this , but also a Perversion and Abuse against some other Friends : The Questions were not their own , but arose from some others ; as evidently appears in their Book , entituled , The Quakers Refuge , &c. p. 17. and 't is Answer'd in my Antidote against the Venom of the Snake in the Grass , pag. 83 , 84. Forgery . I still affirm the same , and do tell you , That it is according to our ancient Testimony ; and you know , we cannot change nor alter , being as Unchangeable , as our Light within , p. 109. Obs. I utterly deny , that I did so tell them in any Sermon of mine , That we are as Unchangeable , as our Light within : This is not only a Forgery , but also a scurrilous Abuse of the Light within . Forgery . We our selves use many words not Scriptural ; as these of calling the Scriptures Death , Dust , Beastly Ware , &c. The Reason why we call them so , and translate the Words of Christ , John 5. 22. from the Son of Man , to the Light within , &c. is , because we believe there is no other Son of Man , than the Light in us , p. Ibid. Obs. Thus he falsly feigns me to Preach , and to repeat his own gross Lye over and over , of calling the Scriptures Beastly Ware , and as if we used so to call them . O Abominable Abuse ! And I positively deny , that we so translate the Words of Christ , John 5. 22. as F. B. saith , as if we believed no Son of Man without us , but only the Light within us ( which is as falsly Charg'd as the rest ) though the Son of Man , which is Christ , the Son of the Living God , be the true Light ; yea , the Light of the World , the Sower of the good Seed of Life and Light in the World. Forgery . Notwithstanding we call the Scriptures Death , Dust , Beastly Ware , &c. Obs. Note , Upon this often-repeated Falshood is grounded much of his idle and wicked Romance , which he calls George Whitehead's Sermon . Oh F. B. repeat this Lye no more ! Forgery . Now my Friends , though this Confession be as contrary to our ancient Testimony , as Light is contrary to Darkness ; as by our Books quoted you may see . [ And what Confession that is , he relates just before , viz. ] I believe with my Heart , and confess with my Mouth , the sacred Scriptures to be Divine , left us by Men inspired of God , &c. And I profess to believe in one only God , who is the Father ; and in Jesus Christ his Eternal Son , very God and very Man ; and in the Holy Spirit , one and the same God with the Father and Son , blessed for evermore . Observe , How he most falsly and ridiculously feigns me to Preach this Connfession , to be as contrary to our ancient Testimony , as Light is contrary to Darkness ; and consequently to make me Preach us all guilty of gross Dissimulation and Blasphemy : What horrid , absurd Folly is this Agent guilty of ! Forgery . And therefore I exhort you this day , to stand Faithful to your ancient Testimony , which is to throw down the Scriptures , and exalt our own Books ; and so will the Work of your Light prosper in your hands , p. 113. Observe : Thus he represents me to Preach , expresly contrary to my known Principle and Testimony , for the preferring and exalting the holy Scriptures above all other Books extant in the World. So far am I from Preaching to throw down the Scriptures , and from Fathering any such Doctrine upon our Light , as I am wickedly misrepresented , in contempt against the Light also ; contrary to this Man 's former serious Testimonies for the Light. And the Preference I have ascribed to the Spirit of Truth , and its Immediate Teaching ( either in or through its Ministers ) to the Scriptures , or Chapters , was not any Preferring of our own Books thereto , as I am often misrepresented : But allowing the Spirit its due Preference to the Scripture , Letter or Chapters . For the Spirit was before Scripture ; and I never heard any assert , the Division of Chapters and Verses to be of Divine Authority ; though the holy Doctrine ( contain'd in Scripture ) be . This Point is more fully explain'd in my late Just Examination of the three Norfolk Priests , entituled , Truth and Innocency vindicated , &c. p. 16 , 17 , 19 , to 23. & p. 57 , 58. Forgery . My tender Lambs , You see first , that we are the true Church of Christ ; next , that you are to believe as the Church believes ; and there lies G. Fox ' s Journal on the Table , &c. For as our Brother Mead has express'd himself , It is the best Book in the World , for our keeping up our ancient Testimony , yea , better than the Bible , said he . And now , to conclude this Head , look into the Book of Canons , which lies before you on the Table , p. 114. Observe , Thus to ridicule me , he forges such Stuff in my Name , which I never owned , preached , or asserted ; neither did I ever hear W. Mead so express himself ; as , That G. Fox ' s Journal is the best Book in the World ; yea , better than the Bible ; but expresly the contrary , and denies that ever he said so ; but gives the Bible the Preference to all other Books . Forgery . Friends , I am now come to the last thing propos'd to speak to on this solemn Occasion , and it shall be by way of Use and Application , for your Comfort and Consolation , &c. First , respecting Confession of Sin ; shewing your Exaltation above the Patriarchs , Prophets , Apostles , Primitive Christians , Saints and Martyrs , and all the Christian Churches to this day , p. 114. — And p. 115. You being the True , Ancient , Apostolick Church of Christ , and as Quakers elected thereto , &c. have no need to make any Confession of Sin in our Prayers to God ; as our Practice for near Fifty Years does confirm , &c. Our Adversaries cannot prove from any one of our Books , wrote by my Self , G. Fox , E. B , F. H , Father Penn , S. Fisher , &c. that ever we made Confession of Sins , and asked pardon for Christ's sake , nor that ever we recommended such a Practice to our Disciples , &c. Now Friends , what Cause have we to rejoyce , and to magnifie our Light within , which hath led us to such a State of sinless Perfection ? Obs. Thus F. Bugg represents me preaching such Stuff , as I never preached in my Life , nor ever own'd any such Flattery or Deceit , as to exalt any Auditory above the Patriarchs , Prophets , Apostles , &c. or to disswade any from making Confession of Sin , or asking Pardon for Christ's sake , who have need of both , or who have not received forgiveness of Sins . And my known publick Practice , both in Ministry and Prayer , often times testifie the contrary : To the True Witness in all , who know me and my publick Exercise and Travel for the good of Souls , I do Appeal , to clear me in this Matter , against this Man's absurd and abominable Forgeries , which he terms George Whitehead's Sermon . And he goes on still with his Forgery , as my Sermon , viz. Forgery . Now Friends , what a happy thing is this , that you need not trouble your selves with any Confession of Sins , since you are not like other Men , nor like these Publicans ? And therefore I exhort you to keep to your ancient Testimony in all the parts of it ; make no Confession of Sins , nor be sure you do not recommend the Practice of it by Word or Writing ; but keep to our ancient Practice . Nor is there any need for our Hearers to follow those Christian Precepts , viz. And whatsoever you do in Word or Deed , do all in the Name of the Lord Jesus , giving Thanks to God the Father by him ( Col. 3. 17. ) Whether ye Eat or Drink , or whatever ye do , do all to the Glory of God , 1 Cor 10. 31. Matth 15. 36. Observe . Where did ever F. Bugg or any other hear me , or any of us , Preach such a Sermon as this , to exhort the Hearers to make no Confession of Sin ; or ever tell them , there is no need for them to follow those Christian Precepts cited ( as before ) out of Col. 3. 17. 1 Cor. 10. 31 ? Oh poor Francis , What will become of thee ! What will be the End of this thy Liberty and Profaness ! How wilt thou Answer the great God in the Day of Judgment for such presumptuous Forgery and Profanation of the Sacred Name of God , and Abuse of me his Servant , who have been many times sorry for thee , under a Sense of the Lamentable Desperate State ! How darest thou thus proceed to Sin against Light and Knowledge , to Invent such a Scurrilous Sermon in above two large Sheets in Print , and Call it George Whitehead's Sermon ; when thou knowest , it is a Defaming , Counterfeit Device and Romance of thy own , having also given thy self the Lie , by saying , 'T is a Sermon for G. W. How binding are God's Commands to thee , viz. Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain ; for the Lord will not hold him Guiltless that taketh his Name in vain ! Thou shalt not bear false Witness against thy Neighbour , Exod. 20. Yet thou audaciously proceedest in thy Forgery , and False-Witness-bearing against me and our Friends , and in my Name , as thus Preaching , viz. Forgery . You know that we our selves , to be seen of Men , do make a kind of Prayer to our Light within , when we are at their Tables , when Company is present ; but if alone , either at home or abroad , we seldom give Thanks for our Food , and seldomer with our Eyes towards Heaven , as Christ did , as Stephen did , or as the Martyrs did ; no , you know we are of another , yea , of a different Faith and Practice from all the ancient Patriarchs , Prophets , Apostles , Martyrs and holy Confessors , and all Christian Churches to this day , being exalted above them , for we sit in heavenly Places , singing the Songs of Sion in the Beauty of Holiness , without Sin or any Imperfection , p. 117 , 118. Obs. I challenge F. Bugg and all his Abettors , and other Adversaries in the World , to prove , when and where , ever I , or any of us , preached such a Sermon as this , importing such Dissimulation in Prayer publick , or Neglect of it in Private , or any such Self-exaltation above the ancient Patriarchs , Prophets , Apostles , Martyrs , or all Christian Churches , &c. No , I abhor such vain Ostentation , foolish and false Boasting , and Professing or Preaching up a Faith and Practice different from theirs . And 't is as notoriously false , That we pray to be seen of Men , and seldom give Thanks at home or abroad , if alone ; and that we so make Prayer to our Light within , as having our whole God within us , as safely as the Papists have their Crucifixes in their Pockets , p. 117 , 118. This also is an ignorant contemning Scoff and Flout , as well as Forgery , and a Slight also put upon the Light within ; which though God and Christ is our Light , Life and Salvation , yet we do not limit , nor confine him , as the whole God within us only ; he being an Omnipresent and All-seeing God , whom the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain . Forgery . My very Doctrine shew it to be the Ten Commandments , first , by telling the Priests , they might as well carry the Ten Commandments to Christ ; the Consequence of which is , that Christ had as much need to learn them as we , p. 118. Obs. Though he unjustly makes this a part of my Sermon , 't is none of my Doctrine or Preaching ; neither are the Words mine , as cited . He refers to Truth Defending the Quakers ( printed 1659. p. 18. ) but falsly quotes the Words . I did not tell the Priests , They might as well carry the Ten Commandments to Christ , much less , that Christ had as much need to learn them as we ; I disown such Blasphemy . But the Question being put , Is the Moral Law or Ten Commandments a Rule to the Christian's Life ? The Answer was , Thou might as well ask , if the Moral Law be a Rule to Christ ? For the Christians Life and Rule is Christ , who is the End of the Law for Righteousness ; who came not to destroy the Law , but to fulfil it . Therefore my Intent was not to make void ( or to break ) the Moral Law , or Ten Commandments , but to refer them to Christ , the true Christian's Life , Way and Principal Rule ; and that Christ is their Life , who live to him , is Evident ; see Col. 3. 4. For ye are dead , and your Life is hid with Christ in God ; when Christ , who is our Life shall appear , then shall ye also appear with him in Glory : Now this Divlne Life of a Christian , which is Christ , cannot be under the Law , as a Rule to him , though the Law was our School-Master to bring us unto Christ , that we might be justified by Faith ; but after that Faith is come , we are no longer under a School-Master , Gal. 3. 24 , 25. And if ye be led by the Spirit , ye are not under the Law , Gal. 5. 18. Therefore being in the Faith of Christ , their Life , their Lord and Master , they were grown past the State of such Children , who were under such a School-Master as the Law , being no more under the Law , but under Grace , For what the Law saith , it saith to those who are under the Law , that the wholé World may become Guilty before God , which his Children are not . Forgery . That we never recommend the Ten Commandments to our Hearers , that they should teach them to their Children , &c. This therefore may confirm you in our ancient Testimony , which hath been to lay them by as a dead Letter , Dust , Death , Serpents Food and beastly ware , &c. p. 118 , 119. Obs. This is not only a gross and repeated Forgery , as 't is made a part of my Sermon ; but also in it self containing two gross Lies : 1. That our ancient Testimony hath been To lay by the Ten Commandments . 2. As Beastly-ware , Serpents food , &c. Where did I , or we , ever give such Testimony of the Ten Commandments , as to call them either Beastly-ware , Serpents food ? &c. I utterly deny ( with abhorrence ) any such Testimony concerning the Ten Commandments , being all comprehended in that great Commandment of Love. And for me , or any of our Friends , preferring the Spirit before the Letter , the Gospel above the Law , and the Ministration of the Spirit and Life , above the Ministration of Death , and exalting it above the Letter of the Scriptures , I know no spiritual Christian will blame us for that , or for any such Doctrine ; which is so evidently agreeable to the holy Apostle Paul's Testimony and Distinction in that Case , as between the Letter and the Spirit , between the Ministration of Death written and engraven in Stones , and the Ministration of the Spirit , which was much more Glorious : As more largly he distinguishes , 2 Cor. 3. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. The Apostle using the very words , The Letter killeth , but the Spirit giveth Life ; and if the Mininistration of Death written and engraven in Stones , &c. which could neither be in Contempt of the Holy Scriptures or Ten Commandments , much less to lay them by , as Beastly-ware , &c. Now F. Bugg repeat these Lies no more ; and you of the Clergy concerned , encourage F. B. no more in 's work against us . Forgery . Beloved , I cannot but allow , that if the Scriptures were of greater Authority , than our Sayings , or that the Words of Matthew , Luke and Paul , were of greater Authority , than are our Sayings , I should be on the Christians side , &c. But Friends , in the beginning we were Convinced by G. Fox , that Matthew , Mark , Luke and John , were Death , Dust and Serpents Meat , that the Scriptures were heastly-ware , &c. [ This Passage ( by the way ) is a gross Forgery and notorious Lie still ; I never thus preached , nor ever were we convinced by G. Fox , or any other , that either the Doctrine of the holy Evangelists were Serpents Meat , Dust or Death , or the Scriptures , Beastly-ware , as 't is frequently repeated by F. B. Unto which foul Abuse he farther adds , as my Sermon , viz. ] And therefore I warn you all to take heed of Apostatising from our ancient Testimony , as you have it in my Text ; for what we were Convinced of by our Light in the beginning to be Evil , to be Death , Dust , Serpents meat , 't is so still ; to be Beastly-ware and Conjuration , 't is so still . p. 120. Obs. This is a blasphemous Fiction , not only against the Holy Scripture , but against the Light , which he calls Your Light : For neither did the Light ever so Convince us to call the Scriptures Beastly-ware ; nor did I ever Preach such blasphemous Doctrine of the Light , as here I am grosly misrepresented , but the Contrary . As no Man speaking by the Spirit can Blaspheme , or call Jesus Accursed ; so no Man speaking by his Light , can Blaspheme or Reproach his holy Scriptures , which Testifie of him . The Book Bugg quotes for his so often-repeated Lie , of calling the Scriptures Beastly-ware , is stiled , A Brief Discovery of a three-fold Estate of Anti-christ , printed 1653. Page 9. I have that Book by me , and I have searched both Book and Page , and I find no such words , as calling the Scriptures Beastly-ware , But Babylon's Merchants selling Beastly-wares for a large Price , all the Week time heaping up a Rabble of Notions into the Brain . So that the Beastly-wares intended , was their Rabble of Notions , and not the Scriptures . Obs. Again , How scurrilously F. Bugg makes me to come to a Stop in this Insolent and Presumptuous Romance , which he calls George Whitehead's Sermon , after this manner , viz. And therefore keep up your ancient Testimony , my Dear Lambs , in all the part of it ; Ha , ha , ha ; hme , hme , hme ; silent , p. 120. Thus this Scorner forges a ridiculous Tone , as my Conclusion or Stop in that place , somewhat resembling the Mockers of Old , whom the Psalmist complains of , Psalm 35. 21. Yea , they opened their Mouth wide against me , and said , Aha , aha ! And Psalm . 40. 15. Let them be desolate for a Reward of their Shame , that say unto me , Aha , aha ! And Psalm 70. 3. Let them be turned back for a Reward of their Shame , that say , Aha , aha ! And then ( after a little Silence ) he most absurdly represents William Bingley , as preaching in Confirmation of his Confused and Absurd Romance , aforesaid , which he calls George Whitehead's Sermon . In W. Bingley's Name thus , viz. Friends , Friends , I am filled , I am filled , as with new Wine ; I am ready to burst at the Joyful News I have heard to day , respecting our Ancient Testimony ; And O magnified be our Light within , which hath thus exalted us above the Prophets , above the Apostles , above the Martyrs , and above all Christians , as our dear Brother G. W. hath most excellently made it out ; first , in opening his Text , and also in the two Branches proceeding from it ; but more especially in the Use and Application , where he hath confirmed me in not making Confession of Sin , nor regarding the Ten Commandments , nor those two Ordinances of Baptism and Supper , p. 120 , 121. Obs. How shamefully he personates W. B. to asperse and abuse him , as if he were highly Elevated , and magnified our Light within , because of what F. Bugg has most falsly feigned G. W. to Preach in Contempt of Scripture , and for Exalting our selves above the Prophets , Apostles , &c. Thus he presumptuously adds Sin to Sin , Lye to Lye , Forgery upon Forgery , such sordid Stuff as we never heard W. B. preach , but he utterly disowns and testifies against the same , with Abhorrency to such Abuse of him and others . And not only so , but Bugg wickedly represents W. B. as making our Light within the Author of his foregoing Absurd Forgery and Romance in G. W's Name , against the holy Scriptures , Ten Commandments , &c. Consequently to blaspheme our Light within , which is the Light of God , and his Dear Son , as if that oppos'd its own Testimony in holy Scripture , and as if that led to Self-Exaltation above the Prophets and Apostles , &c. O wretched Man , F. B ! How wilt thou appear before the Tribunal-Seat of Christ ! What a sad Account wilt thou have for such Profanation , design'd Deceit and Wickedness ! Who further proceedest in W. Bingley's Name , viz. Forgery . But yet I have a short Testimony to bring in , touching the Priests , which I think our Friend G. W. left out unawares ; for I take it to be as necessary an ancient Testimony to be kept up , as any other , only a little more privately and prudently ; for they are as great Enemies to our design of Supplanting Christianity , as any the World affords , p. 121. Observe again : Oh shameful Folly and Falshood ! Where and when did ever W. B. thus Preach , That our Design is the supplanting Christianity ? Whenas our Design is well known to the contrary , to such as truly fear God , and to be for the Promoting of Christianity , both in Spirit , in Faith , Life and Conversation . Forgery . Benjamin Bealing Clerk , Let us sing an Hymn of Praise and Self-Exaltation , and to the Confusion of our Adversaries ; as you will find it written in the Epistle of that Son of Thunder , Edward Burrough , prefixed to our Apostle G. Fox ' s Great Mystery , printed 1658. The Waters have I seen dry'd up , the Seat of that great Whore , Who hath made all Nations drunk with her enticing Power . Observe . Now F. B. dost not thou Glory in thy Shame , in such Invention as this ? Where did ever any in the World hear Benjamin Bealing set or sing such a Hymn as this in the end of a Meeting , or any time else ? Observe his own Testimony , viz. These are to Certifie all sober Readers , That Francis Bugg's Representing me , as calling to the Yearly Meeting , To sing an Hymn of Praise and Self-Exaltation , &c. and making some Verses ( out of Edward Burrough's Preface to G. F's Great Mystery ) to be that Hymn : 'T is all an idle false Invention and Forgery of his own ; for I never was concerned in any such thing in my Life-time ; and I am heartily sorry that this poor Man should be so given up in his old Age to serve the Father of Lyes , with whom , in the Lake , he may expect to have his Portion , without he unfeignedly Repents . Witness my Hand , Benjamin Bealing . London , the 4th of the 5th Month , called July , 1699. Oh F. B. thou appearest one of that sort , who are arrived to that ill Habit of Iniquity and Hardness , that they know no Shame ! And thy presumptuously Prophaning the sacred Name of God , and of his dear Son , and of his Light within , using the same among thy manifold Repeated and Refuted Forgeries , Lyes and Falshoods , is an ill Sign , and bespeaks an ill Omen against thee , and that thy Day hastens . Thou hast almost run thy Rope-length ; the Lord shall laugh at thee , for he seeth that thy Day is coming ; the Pride of thy Heart , and thy abominable Presumption , and wicked Designs of Contempt and Persecution against His Heritage , has reached unto Heaven ; and for thy great Iniquity and Apostacy , thou hast got a secret Wound , which is not cured ( if cureable ) but will increase to greater Anguish , under a Gnawing Worm that will never die , but Augment thy Torment , if thou persistest in thy Impenitency to defame , and make Lyes and Forgeries thy Refuge . Remember , thou hast been often warn'd in thy Life-time , and thou shalt witness me to have been thy Soul's true Friend , when thou shalt not be able to make me the Subject of thy Reproach , nor the Object of thy Malice and Fury . Forgery . You may conclude , Friends , that he ( i. e. G. Fox ) was the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness , spoken of in Scripture ; but mark , This ( Epistle ) it is only to go among Friends , p. 123. Observe again : This Forgery , ( which he now makes part of my Sermon ) has often been detected , and charg'd upon him , as it is a very foul Abuse and Calumny ; that either I , or our Friends , did so call G. Fox , the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness , or preach any such Doctrine , as here he represents me . O Abominable Forgery ! I yet challenge him , and his Abettors , to produce that Book or Epistle , of any of our Friends , which so terms G. Fox , the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness . For though I have found the words , the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness , in E. Burrough's Epistle , To the Camp of the Lord in England , ( in his Works , p. 66 , 67. ) yet not apply'd to G. Fox , nor his Name so much as mention'd in that Epistle . And Bugg knows , he has been told of this over and over in Print , and particularly in my Sober Expostulation , p. 5. & p. 54 , 55 , 56. but never had Answer or Reply from him , to clear himself in this Point ( and many other Lyes ) but a Repetition of the same Forgery over and over , like a wilful , impertinent , scornful Scribler , that will be still Imposing the same Refuted Calumnies , and odious Defamations . This is his course of writing and scribbling Books , with the same Abuses still over and over , without regarding any Answer , how plain so ever , to his Confutation : Which is a most silly , bruitish Method he has enur'd himself unto , still Idem per idem for Proof , and that with a great deal of insolent shew of Confidence . And withal , he has so much studied the Art of idle Romancing , Forgery and Detraction , Scoffing , Taunting , Flouting , Boasting , Cracking and Insulting , that he is arriv'd to a great Heighth of Impudence therein . For which I may repeat this one Instance : Twelve of our Friends in and about London , giving Certificate against four principal Calumnies and Falshoods cast upon the People called Quakers , by F. Bugg , in his New Rome Unmask'd ( as they are related in my Charitable Essay , p. 8. in 1693. ) This being one of his four said Falshoods , viz. II. That the Quakers Prophets give witness to G. Fox , instead of this Christ ; that they call him ( G. F. ) the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness , and put the North of England for the Town of Bethlehem : Epistle to the Bereans , and p. 81. Now , Observe further : For our denying of this , and other Calumnies , in our said Twelve Friends Certificate , the said F. Bugg counterfeits a Court of Judicature , feigns a Jury , pretends Proof out of Books perverted by him , calls the Certifiers against him into Examination ; then forges their Answers , and counterfeits the Jury , to bring them in Guilty of Perjury . Then has a Form of a Pillory , and ugly Pictures to represent the Persons Condemned standing in it , and the first Letters of their Names over their Heads , and the word Perjury over them ( as may be seen in his New Rome Arraigned , Epistle to the Bereans , printed 1693. ) to the Scandal and Defamation of the Persons thus Reproached and Staged by him . By all which it may appear , what Proficiency Francis Bugg has attain'd to , in his Invention of Forgery , to Defame , and make Men Ridiculous : But when since he met with some Check for such his Audacious Abuse and Scandal , and might have cause to fear the Issue , then he could slily excuse the Forgery and Defamation , and put it off , as only a Mock-Trial , and a Mock-Pillory ( and consequently a Mock-Sentence , and a Mock-Perjury ) as if Persons may Defame , Scandalize , Steal , Rob , Kill and Murder Men , either in their Reputations , Livelihoods or Persons , and then ( to excuse themselves from having their Demerits ) alledge , That it was all but in Jest , or in Mockery . And so F. Bugg may say of his idle and profane Romance , which he calls George Whitehead's Sermon , that 't is but a Mock-Sermon ; and consequently that he uses the Name of God and Christ , &c. therein , only in Mockery . But this will not Excuse his presumptuous Profaneness , no more than his Forgery and Defamation . Have not some of the Priests own'd this Man for their Convert , even an eminent Convert of their Church ? And do they not make use of him , gratifie and reward him , as their Agent and their Tool ? But will it redound to their Credit or Honour , or Promotion of the Christian Religion , to abet , promote and assist such a profane Scorner , to act for them in their Cause , more like a Stage-Player , a Merry-Andrew , or Jack-Pudding , than a Person of any Seriousness or Sobriety in Religion ? Forgery . Again in G. W's Name , viz. In the Application I have shewed , how our Light within hath exalted you above the Prophets , Apostles , Martyrs , holy Confessors , and all Christian Churches , to this day . — Our dear Brother W. Bingley hath well remember'd our ancient Testimony against the Hireling-Priests , &c. Benjamin Bealing hath found out a very suitable Hymn of Praise , even a melodious Song of Triumph ; setting forth our Exaltation , and the Downfal of the Christian Churches , under the Notion of the False Church , &c. p. 125 , 126. Observe . Thus he persists Forging such Stuff in my Name , and as my Sermon , like a silly Scorner , playing the Fool against me , to make me as ridiculous a Fool , as he can . What Stage-Player durst ever have adventur'd to profane Religion , and the sacred Name of God , Christ , and the Light , in their Interludes or Comedies , as this Person has done ? Who is accountable to God , for casting such Contempt upon the Light of Christ , as if it led to such Self-Exaltation ( i. e. of our selves ) as he has scornfully related ? For such his Scorn and Contempt against the true Light , which we profess , he is Accountable to the righteous Judge of all ; and his own more serious Confession to the Light , Recited in the Epistle , will rise up in Judgment against him . Forgery again , in the said pretended Sermon in G. W's Name . I have also closed my Discourse with the Prophecy of Sam. Fisher , which you need not doubt of , but will come to pass , it may be sooner than you are aware of , &c. only for the present we must be content to stay , and patiently bear : For as yet we cannot think , we shall be made to handle the Sword. But when the time does come , I have shewed you the Testimony of two of our Prophets , and early Champions , what we shall do , how we shall kill , cut off , and destroy , and bathe our Swords in the Blood of Amaleck , and lay waste fenced Cities , and tread down the Honourable of the Earth , and spare neither Old nor Young , p. 126. Observe his evil Design , by inventing and framing this in my Name , as part of my Sermon ; as if I prophesied , that we should be made to handle the Sword , kill , cut off , and destroy , &c. and spare neither Old nor Young , &c. Which he would have understood in a literal Sense , to make me and our Friends as Obnoxious and Criminal , as he can ; which bespeaks , not only an evil Design , but premeditated Malice and Injury . And I am apt to think , the Man Sinneth knowingly against Light and Conviction , in taking up and representing such words in a literal Sense , as are in Sam. Fisher's Prophecy to O. Cromwel , in 1656. and in Fra. Howgil's and E. B's , in the same Year ; S. F. having these words : I will beautifie my Meek Ones with Salvation , and I will put my High-Praise into their Mouths , and a two-edged Sword into their Hands , and they shall execute Vengeance upon the Heathen , &c. And the other have these words , viz. Out of thee ( i. e. the North of England ) Kings , Priests and Prophets did come forth in the Name and Power of the Most-High , which uttered their Voices as Thunders , and laid their Swords on the Necks of their Enemies , &c. Gird on your Sword upon your Loyns , put on the tried Armour , &c. My beloved Brethren and Fellow-Soldiers , make all plain before you , Thresh on with a Threshing Instrument , which hath Teeth ; beat the Mountains to Dust , let the Breath of the Lord scatter it , &c. p. 124. Now that F. B. renders these , and such like Passages , in a literal Sense , observe his Notes in the Margent , i. e. Are not these Fifth-Monarchy-Men ? Retract these bloody Books , and horrid Principles . Hereupon I would ask him , and those Priests who abet him , 1. If the Psalmist meant Literally in Psalm 149. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 ? Let them read it at large ; and therein Samuel Fisher's words , concerning the Saints High Praises of God in their Mouths , and a Two-edged Sword in their Hands , &c. and the Honour they have . And Isaiah 41. 15. Behold , I will make thee a new sharp Threshing Instrument , having Teeth ; thou shalt thresh the Mountains , and beat them small , and shalt make the Hills as Chaff . 2. If he really thinks , our Friends meant , that God's Prophets , in this Gospel-Day , should go forth with outward Swords of Iron and Steel , and with an outward Threshing Instrument , having Teeth of Iron or Steel , and that they were therewith to beat down and lay level the great Mountains of Stone and Earth ( some of them a Mile or Two high , as they are in the North of England , and other parts ? ) No , I cannot think that Francis Bugg believed thus Literally , either of the Prophet David , Isaiah , or of our Friends , in the places recited by him for part of my Sermon , p. 122 , 123 , 124 , 125. Therefore the more fallacious and deceiful he , to represent them in such a literal and gross Sense , to make us Obnoxious to the Government , as a People of Bloody Principles : Whereby he hath shewn , what a Bloody , Persecuting Spirit lodges in him against us . There are many more Forgeries , Lyes , and perverted Quotations , in the said Romance ( falsly stiled G. Whitehead's Sermon ) which for Brevity's sake are here pretermitted and waved . And this Point , concerning S. Fisher's Message to O. Cromwel , and other Passages relative thereto , quoted by F. B. is more fully spoken to in the Answer to the Three Norfolk-Priests , Entitled , Truth and Innocency vindicated . p. 36 , 37 , 38 , 39 , and p. 62 , 63 , 64. THE Rambling PILGRIM EXPOSED . PART II. AFter F. B. has made such a large Confession to the Light of Christ within , and to the Dispensation of God to Mankind , and to the comfortable Presence of the Lord our God attending our Meetings , it is very ill-becoming him now , to speak so slightly and contemptuously of both , as he doth in his Chap. III. p. 5. where he saith : All were exhorted to adhere to the Light within , to obey the Light within , and to follow the Teachings thereof , as a Guide sufficient to lead us to Salvation ; yea , above Scriptures , above Fathers , above Councils , and above Churches : This I now confess ( quoth he ) was a Paradox , not Orthodox , but absolutely Heterodox . This Confession of his , is , since he disobeyed the Light , and turn'd his back of it ; otherwise he would still confess , that Christ , the true Light , the Head and Lawgiver to his Church , is above Scriptures , Fathers , Councils and Churches , and was before them , and is the Light of the World , which whoever follows , shall not abide in Darkness , but shall have the Light of Life . Consequently this Light of His is a Guide sufficient to lead us to Salvation , and to Understand , Believe and Practice according to Holy Scripture , and not to oppose it . It is a wicked Calumny against our Silent Meetings , to say , That they were designed to wean us off from so much as the Remembrance of all External Religion , and also to prepare us to receive the false Notions of Quakerism , p. 5. Our Externally Meeting together to wait upon God , and our living Experience of his Presence and Power , and Spiritual Ministry , to our great Comfort and Edification in those our Meetings , do testifie the contrary to F. B's Aspersions against them and us . He has unjustly quoted me , about the Authority of the Spirit and the Scriptures , p. 6. as the Three Norfolk-Priests did ; as I have shewn p. 16 , 17. of my Just Examination ( of their two Books ) Entitled , Truth and Innocency vindicated ; leaving out the very Explanatory Words , relating to the Spirits Immediate Teaching , being of greater Authority or Efficacy , than the Letter of the Scriptures , as divided into Chapters ; my Explanation being , viz. As Christ's Words were of greater Authority , when he spoke , than the Pharisees reading the Letter ; and they in whom that Spirit speaks not , are out of the Authority of the Scriptures , &c. See the Matter further explained in my said Examination referred unto . For here we own the Divine Authority and Efficacy of the Holy Scriptures , as spoken by Christ ; but the Division of Chapters and Verses , and the bare Letter thereof , not to be of the same Authority and Efficacy . I deny his Consequence , That any little Pamphlet of Our's , is of greater Authority than the Bible , or of as great ; for I never asserted , the holy Doctrine in the Bible not to be first given forth from one and the same Spirit of Truth , from which we have given forth Writings and Religious Books , which contain many Doctrines in the Bible ; and by referring thereto , they prefer the Bible , and the Divine Authority of the holy Scriptures contain'd therein . And we still prefer the Bible before all other Books extant in the World : For even the Statute-Book is of greater Authority than all the Abstracts made of it , how true so ever . And whereas he takes Occasion against me , about an Answer given to a Priest's Question , viz. Is the Moral Law or Ten Commandments a Rule to the Christians Life ? ( The Answer , is ) Thou mightest as well ask , If the Moral Law be a Rule to Christ ? For the Christians Life and Rule is Christ [ to which F. B. adds , Meaning their Light within ] And suppose I meant so , as I did mean , That Christ was and is the Christians Light and Life ( Col. 3. 3 , 4. ) 't is not Christians Lives and Conversations in the Question , but Christian's Life , in the Singular ; to which the Answer was adapted , that the Christian's Life is Christ ; when Christ , who is our Life , shall appear , ( Col. 3. 4. ) Can we suppose , this Life or Light to be under the Law , ( which was added because of Transgression , till the Seed came ) or under those Prohibitions in the Ten Words or Commandments ? Or is it meet or proper , to apply them thereunto , and say to Christ , or his Light in Christians , Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain : Thou shalt not bear false Witness ? &c. Or is it good Doctrine to suppose , True Christians in Christ to be literally under the Law of those Prohibitions , and thereby only restrained from Idolatry , from taking the Name of God in vain , from Killing , from committing Adultery , from Stealing , and bearing false Witness against their Neighbours ? Or are they not rather redeem'd by Christ , from that Depravity and corrupt Inclination , from whence those Evils proceed ; and consequently under a higher Restraint ( from those gross Inormities prohibited ) even by his Light and Grace dwelling in their Hearts , than only the Letter of the Law , as outwardly written ? The Substance whereof God first writ in Man's Heart , and after writ it in the Two Tables , Exod. 31. 18. Deut. 9. 10. Exod. 34. 1. before Moses writ the Law. And Christ , the true Light and Lawgiver , writes his Laws of the New Covenant in Men's Hearts ; and he it is , who came not to destroy the Law , but fulfils the Righteousness of the Law in them , that walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit , Rom. 8. Christ being also the End of the Law for Righteousness ( not for Transgression ) to them that believe : This Point is spoken to before , though here farther Explain'd . And further , F. B. bitterly inveighs against our Silent Meetings , which in Derision he calls Silent Universities , tending only to empty the Mind of all true and solid Notions of the Christian Religion , and only to prepare them to the wild Notions of Quakerism ; and this he affirms from an Experimental Knowledge , ( he saith ) p. 7. and calls them Schools of Ignorance , and that they had strange Effects upon us , and how we thereby became not only levened into a Temper to throw off all Instituted Religion , but to a degree higher , even to throw Contempt both upon the Scriptures , Ordinances and Ministers , and all things Sacred , p. 8. And by their Silent Meetings , weaned and drawn off from the Principles and Practices of the Christian Churches in all Ages , p. 10. Answer . Whither art thou now run F. B ? Thy own Confessions condemns thee , and shall rise up in Judgment against these Envious , Evil Reports of thine against those Meetings of our's ; for which thou hast confessed ( even since thou left them ) That God blessed our Meetings with the comfortable Enjoyment of his Presence : Which could not tend to any such ill Effects , as before rehearsed ; as either To Empty our Minds of the Knowledge of the Christians Religion , or To make our said Meetings , Schools of Ignorance , or To Throw Contempt upon the Scriptures , or To draw us off from the Principles and Practices of true Christian Churches : How hast thou herein blasphemed against the true Light , against the comfortable Presence of God , wherewith he blessed our Meetings ? And how hast thou Given thy self the Lye , and bely'd thy own Conscience , in thus contradicting thy own solid Confessions , made to our Doctrine of the true Light , Ministry , Dispensation of God's Love , our Sufferings , Love unfeigned , blessed Meetings ? &c. As also that We told People , That the Scriptures were Good , and a true Declaration of those things which were most surely believed by the Apostles , and by us ought to be believed ; yet not the only Rule , but still the Spirit of God , which was the first Principle , &c. As more largely thou hast confessed in thy Book , De Christianâ Libertate : Or , Liberty of Conscience upon its true and proper Grounds , asserted and vindicated , printed 1682. Part 2. Chap. 1. And thy Offence against Light , Conviction and Conscience , and thy Self-contradiction and Condemnation , may farther also appear . 1st , From thy own Account and Consideration , How thou camest to be a Member of our Society : The Reasons thereof thou hast given in thy Quakers Detected , printed 1686. ( two Years after thou left us , and Conformed ) wherein thou hast given solemn Confession to the Truth of our Principle , the Light , and the Sufficiency thereof , our Ministry , Conversation , Love , Society , blessed Meetings , &c. 2. And then placing the Cause of thy being Weary of our Society , and turning to the Church of England , upon the Quakers Apostacy ( as thou judgedst ) i. e. from our first Principles of Union ; see thy Quakers Detected , p. 3 , 4. 3. Now to go round again , Thy Great Work is , to Expose our ancient first Principles and Testimony , to as much Derision and Contempt , as thy loose Invention can Produce : Witness thy idle Romance , and false Fiction ( which thou falsly termest , George Whitehead's Sermon ) detected ; but especially thy profane Contempt against our Testimony of the Light within , or in Man , which now instead of owning it to be that True Light , testified of , in John 1. 9. wherewith Christ hath Enlightened Men ; the Treatment and Characters this Light meets withal from thee , is , That 't was a Parodox , not Orthodox , but absolutely Heterodox , to exhort to the Light within , to obey the Light within , and to follow the Teachings thereof , as a Guide sufficient to lead us to Salvation , &c. ( Pilgrim's Progress , p. 5. ) opposing their ( i. e. the Quakers ) Light within to the Christians Life ( which is Christ ) p. 6. to the Man Christ , as if Christ being Man without us , hindered him from being our Light as he is the Word in us ; which were Ignorantly to suppose him divided . And F. Bugg perverting Josiah Cole's words on John 5. 22. All Judgment is committed unto the Son , ( i. e. the Light ) ( J. C's Works , p. 93. ) This ( say'st thou ) Is a bold Attempt , this is most Horrible , if not Blasphemy , thus to subvert the Gospel , to serve their Corrupt Ends. How wary then had People need be of receiving the Quakers Doctrine ? Is it so , that People being thus caught in a Snare , and brought over to their silent Meetings , &c. ( thus thou p. 10. ) Thus contrary to thy former solid Confession to the Light , hast thou appeared against it ; instead of Christ the Light , or the Light of Christ , the true Light , which enlightens Men , now ( with thee ) 't is Their Light , the Quaker-Light , p. 46 , 48. Thus and much more in Contempt of the Light , like that profane Great Lying Libel , The Snake in the Grass , whose Pupil thou F. B. appearest to be , in this thy Dark Enmity against the Light , and the Children of the Light , as also in thy high Commendation of the Author of that Snake , as having been , and still is , a Gentleman , a Man of Great Learning and Piety , cloathed with Zeal as with a Garment , for the Christian Religion , and well accomplished every way , &c. p. 31. but thy Contempt and Profaness ( like his ) against the Light , as well as thy gross and horrid Ignorance and Scorn in this Point , is plainly detected , and justly reprehended by Edmund Elys ( though one of the Church of England ) in his late half Sheet in Print , entituled , Some Reflections upon Francis Bugg 's Book entituled , The Pilgrims Progress , &c. F. Bugg his opposing the Light in the Body , to the Light in the Particular ( p. 12. ) is such a blind Contradiction , as well as Contradistinction , as is neither Scriptural , nor ever allowed by us ; the Light ( Christ ) being but one pure Indivisible Light in himself , and in every Member , and in his whole Body ; nor do we know of any Council held in London , either in the Month of May , 1666. or any Time else ( of our Friends ) who decided , That the Body should govern , and the Light in the particular should submit to the Body , as F. B. falsly relates : But Mendacem oportet esse memorem ; A Lyar hath need of a good Memory ; which this seems to want . For in Contradiction to himself herein , he other-whiles accuses us with saying , All Power in Heaven and Earth is committed to our Light , p. 10 and That the Light in every Man is the higher Power , to whom all must submit and obey ; and that this Light is one in the Male and in the Female ( p , 23 , 24. ) and their President ( i. e. the Quakers President in their Convocation ) being their Light within , p. 38. How then should the Body govern the Light ? Or how should we make any such Decision , as he has told us , That the Light in the particular should submit to the Body , and the Body be without a Head , like a Monster , as F. B. Scoffs blasphemously ! For Christ the true Light is our Light , and he is the Head of the Body , and the Government is laid upon his Shoulders ; who is Lord of Lords , and King of Kings . And none can truly Perswade , Counsel , Judge , or ( in such Gospel-way ) Rule , or Govern for Christ in his House and Family , but in and by his Light and Power , for no other is allowed among us , so that Christ in all things must have the Preheminence . It is also an Impudent Falshood , that any Council among us Resolved , That G. Fox must be the Head of the Body , and not the Light in the particular ( p. 11 , 12. ) Where have we ever so Concluded or Asserted ? But ever the contrary ; namely , that Christ is the Head of the Body ( the Church ) the Light and Lawgiver thereof . Again , F. B. perverts my words , and wrongs me over and over , in saying , ( p. 16. ) So Proud is G. Whitehead , that he tells you , The Jews might as well have carried them to Christ in the days of his Flesh , ( viz. the Ten Commandments ) for him to learn , observe and obey them , as for the Christians to carry them to the Quakers to learn them , observe and obey them . ( And to this effect he has many times over perverted my words , quoting Truth Defending the Quakers , p. 18. ) Where did ever I say , The Jews might as well have carried the Ten Commandments to Christ , for him to learn , observe and obey them , as for the Christians to carry them to the Quakers to learn them , observe and obey them ? I deny the words and Comparison ; and they are not in my Answer he refers unto ; wherein my saying [ The Christians Life and Rule is Christ , who is the End of the Law for Righteousness ; who came not to destroy the Law , but to fulfil it . ] I neither make void the Ten Commandments , nor render Christ to have as much need to learn them as the Quakers . Oh for shame , F. B. repeat these Lyes no more . I cannot but observe , what a Habit of Perversion and Abuse this Adversary is arriv'd unto ! Again , 't is a notorious Abuse and Forgery in F. Bugg , p. 16 , 18. to Accuse the Quakers with making the Commands of God , of none Effect , setting the Ten Commandments of Moses , and Ten Commandments ( which he has fram'd , patch'd up and number'd ) in G. Fox's Name , opposite one to another in two Columns ; his Design therein being , to make the People call'd Quakers as ridiculous absurd and silly as he can . He feigns Ten Commandments in the Quakers Language , instead of the Ten Commandments of God by Moses , and places them in Opposition thereto , to make the Commands of God of none Effect . Though the Man's perverse Invention against us herein , deserves not Repetition ; yet that his profane Forgery in this may appear , I here give the Reader some Instances of the Method he has Invented against us , viz. The Commandments of God by his Servant Moses , &c. Exod. 20. The Commandments of G. Fox , the Quakers Second Moses , &c. I. Thou shalt have no other Gods but me . II. Thou shalt not make to thy self any Graven Image . — III. Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain ; for the Lord will not hold them guiltless , that taketh his Name in vain . I. Thou shalt not pay Tythes to the Covetous Priests , nor to the Antichristian Impropriators . II. Thou shalt not Marry by or with a Priest. III. Thou shalt not put off thy Hat in respect to thy Superiours . These F. Bugg forms in Opposition to the other , to shew that the Quakers make the Commands of God of none Effect ; wherein his idle Impertinency , as well as Injustice , appears ; as also in the following : VII . Thou shalt not commit Adultery . VIII . Thou shalt not Steal . IX . Thou shalt not bear false Witness against thy Neighbour . X. Thou shalt not covet thy Neighbour's House , thou shalt not covet thy Neighbour's Wife , nor his Man-Servant , nor his Ox , nor his Ass , nor any thing that is his , &c. VII . Thou shalt not wear Lace , nor Ribbons , nor Skimming-dish Hats , nor short Aprons , &c. VIII . You shall have a Woman's Meeting distinct from the Men , &c. IX . Thou shalt call the Days of the Week , first , second , third and fourth Day , &c. and the Months , first , second , and third Month , &c. X. I charge you all in the Presence of the Lord God , That you Judge not one another , i. e. Those that be in the Unity of the Ministry , and Elders in the Church , lest you fall into the Condemnation of the Monthly , Quarterly , Six-Week , Second-Day , or Yearly Meeting . Amen . Thus F. B's invented Method of forming Commands ; how Idle and Impertinent does the Man appear herein ? And how does he Profane and take the sacred Name of the Lord God in vain ? For which God will not hold him guiltless . And when F. B. will not demean himself quietly towards any of our Friends , but be Challenging of them in the Countries , or else-where , and will be Charging them out of Books , they may Charge him : First , To prove his Trial and Condemnation of our Friends to Perjury and Pillory ( as in his New Rome Arraigned ) to be a Real and True Trial and Condemnation , Judicial and Warrantable by the Law of God , and of the Nation . Secondly , To prove his Sermon , which he calls George Whitehead's Sermon ( in his Pilgrim's Progress , from p. 107 , to p. 126. ) to be a Real Sermon preached by G. W. Thirdly , To prove where G. Fox , or the Quakers , did ever endeavour to make the Commands of God ( Exod. 20. ) of none Effect , by those or such positive Commands , as he has impudently form'd in opposition thereto , in his Pilgrim's Progress , p. 16 , 17 , 18 ? Now , if F. B. will not learn to be quiet towards our Friends , &c. that he might the more quietly go to his Grave ( now he grows Old ) they may very well Charge him on these Three Forgeries last propos'd ( as many more I could charge him withal , and have proved against him ) upon his own Calumnies and Occasions , so manifestly given by himself ; and let him be held to the point in Charge , or any other who dare undertake to Advocate for him therein ( which I could never yet find ) if he and they are not minded otherwise to study to be quiet . And now , that F. B's Falshood , Envy and Contradiction may yet farther appear to his own Condemnation , seeing he hath given plain Testimony and Confession to the Truth of our Doctrine and Ministry ; First , With respect to the Universality and Sufficiency of the Light of Christ in all Men. Secondly , To our Ministry , that it was a Dispensation of the Love of God , sent as a Visitation to Mankind , Thirdly , To our bearing the Cross , and suffering for the Testimony thereof . Fourthly , To our Love unfeigned one to another . Fifthly , To our Religious Meetings , as being blessed with the Comfortable Enjoyment of the Presence of God : According as the said F. Bugg is more fully before recited out of his Book stiled , The Quakers Detected , printed 1686. being Two Years after he had left our Communion , and joyned himself to the Church of England in 1684. So that his Conviction and Testimony for the Truth among the Quakers ( even when he had deserted them ) pursued him into the Church of England . But now being grown more hardy , and so far hardned against Conviction and Conscience , he can out-face both , and give himself the Lye in his fore-cited Solemn Testimony and Confession ; as appears in his envious Contradiction following , in his own words , viz. Having by this time shewed first , how our Teachers , in order to bring us over to them , and to decoy us , told us , The Light within was a sufficient Guide , Teacher and Leader , even sufficient to lead to Salvation ; yea , above Scriptures , above Fathers , above Councils , and above Churches : I have in the last Instance shewed the Fallacy of their so early and smooth Pretences , and that from the beginning they have been a false , perfidious and treacherous Tribe of Deceivers , as ever the World produced , ( Pilgrim's Progress , p. 15. ) To such a degree of Hardness and Insolency is this poor Creature now arriv'd , that he can now thus scribble in Opposition to the Sufficiency of the Light within , and Contempt of the Ministers thereof , expresly contradictory to his own Testimony for the Light ( wherewith Christ hath enlightned Men ) and to the Sufficiency thereof , if obey'd , to lead to Salvation ( without the help of Decrees of Men : ) And to his own Testimony also , for the Simplicity and Plainness which attended our Ministry ; which did not import any Design to decoy or deceive Men , nor any Falshood , Perfidiousness or Treachery , as F. B. has falsly and treacherously Scandalized Us and our Ministry , and thereby notoriously given himself the Lye , and shamefully Belyed his own Conscience , and solemn Confession and Testimony , in his Quakers Detected aforesaid . And the Light , now so much slighted by him , will pursue him ( as it did Judas , and other Apostates ) to his great Vexation and perpetual Torment , if he persists in his Enmity , Perfidiousness and Treachery against the Light , and the Children of it . Oh F. B ! If I may yet perswade thee , Repeat thy Lyes and Scandals no more . His Accusation against W. Mead , That he said to one W. Harris , I will give thee one of George Fox 's Journals , it is a very good Book , yea , better than the Bible : Which Accusation he has many times over ( p. 22 , 23 , 24 , 25 , 29. ) but various in it , viz. That 't is better than the Scriptures of the Prophets and Apostles , p. 23. This Accusation W. Mead positively denies , as contrary to his Principle , which is to prefer the holy Scriptures before all other Books in the World : For I asked him seriously about this matter . And I am sure , it is a base and shameful Abuse of F. Bugg , that It is the Heart of Quakerism , in saying , G. Fox 's Journal is better than the Bible , p. 23. This , I must tell him , is a foul , notorious Lye and Calumny against the Quakers ( so called ) 'T is neither the Quakers Mind , Heart nor Mouth , so to speak , but the contrary , i. e. To prefer the Bible to all other Books extant in the World , as hath been often testified . Wherefore F. B. repeat this Lye no more against us . Again , as 't is F. Bugg's common Course to add one Calumny after another , and to accumulate Lyes and Perversions upon us , he falsly saith , The Quakers stand upon the same bottom ( i. e , with the Jesuites ) and therefore they ought to distrust them in all they say , as the Protestants did the Jesuites . We do not expect he will trust us , who has belyed his own Conscience , Conviction and Testimony , as before evinced . And to add to his Iniquity , and aggravate his Calumnies against me , he saith , Many of their Hearers , of the honest sort , begin to think G. Whitehead little better than a Jesuite already ; he hath been so False in Fact , such a Glosser and Defender of every Error the Quakers hold : I have ( quoth he ) a Letter by me , which my Cousin Ann Docwra sent me , dated 26. 12th Month , 1682. viz. G. Whitehead has sent me one of his Books , &c. I was asked by an honest Friend , If he was not a Jesuite ? I answered , Nay , it is not solid enough for them to own , especially when they write to a solid People ( with more Reflections in her Name . ) And then , to defame me , he infers , viz. Thus it appears , how long the honest sort of Quakers have taken G. W. to be little better than a Jesuite , and my Cousin Docwra was of the same mind too , else she would not have given me her honest Friends Judgment , p. 25. I leave A. D. to answer for her self in this matter , she knows me better . But for this Defamation , of being little better than a Jesuite , thus insinuated against me by F. Bugg , he is Accountable , as he is for his Trial , Condemnation and Pillory , forged against us under the Pretence of Perjury , and as a Pack of Perjur'd Persons ; making no Conscience how Criminal and Scandalous he renders us , and highly defames us . But I challenge him and his Abettors , to manifest and produce those many of our Hearers , of the honest sort , who either begin to think , or have taken G. Whitehead to be little better than a Jesuite : Let him bring forth and manifest that honest sort of Quakers , that so think , or have taken me to be such an one ; for I utterly deny the Accusation , as a false Aspersion and Defamation . As I also testifie against his other Calumnies , as these following , viz. That G. W. can vindicate or excuse any Blasphemy , Idolatry , Contempt of the Scriptures , Contempt of Magistrates , of the Ministry , the Person and Sufferings of Christ , &c. p. 26. I am not conscious to my self of any such Vindication or Contempt , but have often testified the contrary in publick , both in behalf of the holy Scriptures , Magistracy , Christ's Ministry , his Person and Sufferings ; and abundantly answered the same in Print . Wherefore ( F. B. ) repeat these foul Slanders no more . 'T is a wonder F. B. should so much , by Insinuation , endeavour to represent G. W. like a Jesuit , or little better , and yet upbraid him , as one so Illiterate , that neither writes true School-Learning , nor one Page good Grammar-English , as well as some part meer Non-sense ( i. e. in Jacob found in a Desert Land. ) Yet he will not call him Fool , nor yet nothing of a Schollar , for perhaps he might be then enter'd in his Accidence , p. 30. Thus F. B. upbraids and detracts against G. W. but to exalt his own Endowments , as having both a Competency of Learning , and Judgment afforded him to deal with the Quakers ( p. 30. ) 'T is a wonder I should be such a Proficient in Learning now , as to be compared to a Jesuit , seeing I never went to Learn at School , since the time I writ that which he deems so foreign to true School-Learning , or good Grammar-English ; although I learned a considerable time after I enter'd my Accidence . But I am sure , all his Writings are not true Syntax , nor true Concord , but sometimes both Person and Number confounded . But how comes F. B. such a Proficient in his Competency of Learning now ? When in his New Rome Unmask'd ( in his Apology ) he more submissively confesses thus , viz. I am not accomplish'd with Parts and Learning sufficient to grapple with such Scholars , as are some of the Chieftains of the Quakers . Against some others of his silly Detractions , please to read the following Ceretificate , viz. Whereas Francis Bugg , in his Pilgrim's Progress , printed 1698. Page 32. after a contemning and detracting manner against George Whitehead , hath these Expressions , viz. You came from Penury to Plenty ; from Labour and Toil , to Ease and Pleasure ; you came from your Father's poor Cottage , which I have been told by them that saw it , that it was not worth 50s . to Houses worth 500l . And in his Quakerism Exposed , printed 1699. he also saith , Do Gentlemen live in a poor Cottage , standing on Mud-Walls , not worth 50s . as G. W. did ; as I am credibly informed by a Person of Note that saw it ? — We , whose Names are hereunto Subscribed , do Certifie the contrary to this Information of F. Bugg's ; namely , That we have been Lodged , and kindly Entertained , both Horse and Man , at the House that was George Whitehead's House ( the Father of this George Whitehead ) at Sunbigin , in the Parish of Orton , in Westmorland , from whence his Son , the said George Whitehead came , and where his own Sister Ann Pratt , and her Husband and Family do now Reside ; and the House is a Large , Substantial and Commodious House , after the manner of that Country , and of Stone-Walls ; and no such thing as Mud-Walls pertaining to it : Neither do we know of any Houses standing on Mud-Walls in those Parts , being greatly replenish'd with Lime-Stone and Quarries , meet for strong and durable Building , both for their Mansion-Houses and Barns ; and therefore no need of Mud-Walls for their Buildings . And also , that the said George Whitehead's Kindred and Relations , and the Families from whence he came , were and are generally People well Esteemed of , and of good Reputation , as we have understood ; and he well Educated , and needed not be expos'd to Penury or Want , either when at his Father's House , or when he was put to Board and Free-School in Cumberland , as ( on credible Information ) we verily Believe . Joseph Baines , George Knipe , John Thompson . I do not think it worth my time to repeat or answer all his Detractions , Aspersions or Calumnies against my self ; however I 'm sure , he wrongs me , in rendering me a Covetous , Worldly-minded Person , as none exceeds , p. 32. and our Ministry the Chargeablest this day in England , ( but to come off here , he says ) to some particulars . But to what Particulars they exceed all other Ministries in being Chargeable , he instances only himself , viz. That the Ministry of the Quakers has cost me as much in Three Months time , nay , much more , than the publick Ministry have cost me this Fifteen Years ( p. 24. ) I do not know what Account he keeps of the Charge our Ministry has put him to ; yet I do not believe , his Hospitality to any of them made him either Break or Fail in the World : However he is very apt , not only to sound a Trumpet of his Hospitality , but also to upbraid such as he has afforded any Entertainment at his House , in the time of his Prosperity , among the People called Quakers ; as he upbraided me in Print , with his Entertainment of me : To which I gave him this Answer , As for being Fed at F. B's Table , I think 't was not very often , whether Three or Four times I remember not ( which was but seldom in 25 Years time ) and I suppose it was not without some Invitations by him . Didst not thou F. B. invite me to thy House sometimes ? Surely 't was not then intended to upbraid me in Print with feeding at thy Table ; thou wast then more a Man , and of more Civility . 'T is pity thy Conversion to the Priests and Levites should so much deprive thee both of Compassion , Natural Affection , and Civility ! However , since 't is thy pleasure thus to upbraid Me , I offer thee reasonable Satisfaction ; let me have a true Bill , how oft I have fed at thy Table , and what each Meal comes to ( according to the usual Rates of Ordinaries ) and I will pay it , or cause payment to thee , God willing . How much less the publick Ministry has cost him these 15 Years , ( that is , since his Conformity ) as 't is a Question , so there may be a Fallacy in it , in that some of his Ministers have been some of his Benefactors , and given him considerable Sums of Money ( as we have heard ) since he fail'd , and got the Bishop's Certificate ( to go a begging withal ) 't was not likely the publick Ministry should be Chargeable to him , when he has prov'd Chargeable to them ; I doubt , more Chargeable than Judas was to the Chief Priests . And pray what has the Publick Ministry cost him these 15 Years time , since his turning to them ? May not his Gain by them overballance all that Cost suppos'd , if ever they put him to any all that time ? But is it not to be suppos'd , that the great Joy of some of them , over such a Convert , or Proselyte , might save him that Cost or Charge , which otherwise they might have put him to , under such a Chargeable Ministry ? His Perversions , Lyes , Calumnies , Sarcasms , cruel Mockings , Boastings , frequent and manifold Repetitions of the same things , idle Romances , and gross Forgeries , are so numerous , both against Meetings and Persons ( and particularly against our Second Days Meetings , Chap. XI . which , he falsly saith , all Books Printed and Re-printed pass the Tryal of , &c. ) that I design not to spend much time in the Recital of them , or to trouble my Reader therewith ; but to take notice of a few more of his Abuses and persecuting Invectives in this Treatise . P. 48. He blasphemously brings the Pope of Rome , and the Quakers Light ( as he scornfully calls it ) in their Body assembled in Council , in Comparison , so as to be suspected to undermine the Government , but the latter most dangerous , and thereupon ought to be prevented from holding such Councils ( as he saith . ) And also p. 55 , 56. against our Monthly and Quarterly Meetings he inveighs bitterly , insinuating , What need there is to suppress these Meetings ; that ( he falsly saith ) thus alienate the Obedience of the Subjects from their lawful Soveraign , and his Laws , &c. Here he shews his persecuting Spirit of Envy and Reproach against our peaceable innocent Meetings , which are for the Exercise of Christian Care , and promoting the Practice of pure Religion , Love and Charity ; according as is fully explained in my Examination ( of the Three Norfolk - Priests two Books ) Intituled , Truth and Innocency Vindicated , p. 39 , to 44. & p. 66 , 67 , 68. In his Chap. X. he undertakes to Treat of the Quakers Six Weeks Meeting in London , falsly charging the same with Pernicious Consequences ; of which Meeting he saith , viz. This Six Weeks Meeting of theirs is chiefly to Consult about , and defend their own Members throughout the Kingdom of England , and Dominion of Wales , from the Penalties of certain Laws , &c. 2. This Meeting of theirs is one of the most Ancient Meetings for Government , and is made up of chosen Men amongst them , expert in the Laws and Customs of the Nation , well skill'd in the Courts of London and Westminster , and other his Majesties Courts of Records , &c. p. 65. Herein F. Bugg has grounded his Chap. X. upon false Suggestions , which he is very apt to make ( as he has stuffed his Chap. XI . against our Second Days Meetings , with abundance of false Stories ) For 1st , Our Six Weeks Meeting in London is not a Meeting of such Import , to Consult such Defence , as he relates . 2dly , Neither is this Meeting one of the most Ancient Meetings for Government , neither is it made up of Chosen Men , for many Sober Women are also concerned in it : Therefore this History-Writer is greatly out in his Calculation , and thus foolishly runs on to form History upon false Suggestions , unjustly to make our innocent Meetings Obnoxious to the Civil Government . Upon which Falshood he further goes on , pretending to shew , how our Six Weeks Meeting is Authorized by an Anniversary Epistle , printed 1693. which he recites part of , in which Recital of his , are these words , viz. And being sensible of the great Care of the [ Six Week ] Meeting for Sufferings , still leave it to the said Meeting for Sufferings to continue their Care , &c. p. 66. Obs. Thus he runs on headily in his Falshood and Forgery ; for the words [ Six Week ] are not in the Yearly Epistle and place quoted by him , of 1693. To his often quoting William Rogers against us , and against me in particular , as if he were of great Authority with him , I shall say little now , but am sorry , for W. R's sake , that ever he ministred such occasion for such a persecuting Apostate ( as F. B. ) now to glory in against us . However I have cause charitably to hope , that W. R. is now of a better Mind concerning us , than to put any such Weapons again into the hands of such Implacable Persecutors , as F. B. and his present Abettors , or now to compare us with Rome , or deem us Rome's Sister , &c. as p. 57. And his Commendation for G. Keith , and quoting him so often against us , and upbraiding G. W. with what he wrote lately to him , that G. W. could further expose him , &c. p. 36. I say F. B's Commendation will add nothing to G. K's Reputation , nor redound to his Esteem in the Eyes of any Sincere , Consciencious Friends among us , or Friendly People towards us . But his intimacy with F. Bugg and some Envious Priests , and Confederacy with the Author to The Snake in the Grass , shew how readily he can close with any Inveterate Adversaries against the People called Quakers ; which tends to verifie that Proverb , Nosciter ex Socio , qui non cognosciter ex se. There is one remarkable and severe Quotation , which F. Bugg seems to Summon me , as the Author of — viz. Come , smooth George , I have seen another of your Books , wherein you say , p. 52. Some of the Presbyterian Non-Conformists Preachers are fled beyond Sea ; others lurk in Corners here and there , and keep private Conventicles , where many times they Preach Sedition against their lawful Prince , by Instigation of whom , that Insurrection hapned in 1666. Again , p. 53. And some of them have printed Books in Defence of the Lawfulness of making War against the supreme Magistrates , &c. Again , p. 23. And how many Garments were rolled in Blood , by the Instigation of the Presbyterian Teachers , the whole Nation was a Witness ; so that many Thousands were made Widows and Fatherless by that War , they stirred up the People unto . P. 54. And in very Truth , the Presbyterian Church will never be able to purge her self of the Iniquity of Killing many Thousands in the Three Nations , by the Occasion of a most Bloody War , rais'd up through the Instigation of the Presbyterian Teachers , &c. ( p. 81. ) On which he quotes in the Margent , The Way cast up . Now , pray observe his Fallacy in this Quotation : He names not the Author of the said Way cast up ; but calls , Come , smooth George , I have seen another of your Books , &c. So that the Reader , that knows him not , may take it to be G. Whitehead's : And this looks like a Fallacious Design to incense the Presbyterians against me . He was loth to tell them , his beloved Friend and Associate George Keith was the Author thereof ( as indeed he was ) and of all those severe Charges against the Presbyterians , &c. in it ; for I have the said Book ( entitled , The Way cast up ) by me to shew . Now F. B. how much Envy and Revenge so ever thou hast conceiv'd , and long since harbour'd against me , thou may'st be horribly ashamed of this thy fallacious and deceitful Device and Dealing against me , when 't is thus evidently detected . I would ask thee , ( Francis ) Didst thou shew G. Keith this Passage , which thou hast cited out of his Way cast up , before it was printed ? And if thou didst , did he approve of thy thus exposing it in Print in this Form thou hast done , without letting the World know who is the Author of the said Way cast up ? Again , it is a manifest Falshood , That they ( i. e. Quakers ) will not pray for King William III. p. 79. And again , That they refuse to pray for King William III. p. 80. And the Reasons he gives for this Lye , are : 1. Unless they make them Justices , or Commanders . 2. If he would not stand by and support Quakerism , &c. The contrary is well known ; for K. William and the Government has been often prayed for among us , as well as the preceding Kings ; though F. Bugg has often had this false Accusation against us , thereby designing to make us Offensive , contrary to the Primitive Christians Practice , Of making Supplications , Prayers , Intercessions , and giving of Thanks for all Men , for Kings , and for all that are in Authority ; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable Life , in all Godliness and Honesty , 1 Tim. 2. 1 , 2. That many of the People called Quaker's , both Ministers and others , drew up a Paper against Hellish Plots , and Traiterous Conspiracies , as Works of the Devil and Darkness , even since the late Plots against the present King and Government , as well as against all Plots and Conspiracies in the time of the preceding Kings Reigns , may be truly declared ; though , like a furious Incendiary , F. B. eagerly endeavours to stir up Jealousie in the Government , not only against particular Persons , but against Us , who are ( and I hope , ever shall be ) a People Innocent and Quiet in the Land , whatever mischievous Devices are , by such Incendiaries and wicked Ones , devised against us . Only he has done us some Right , in reciting the Ancient Testimony and Principle of the People called Quakers renewed , with respect to the King and Government , Against all Plotting Conspiracies , and contriving Insurrections , against the King or the Government , and against all Treacherous , Barbarous and Murtherous Designs , as Works of the Devil and Darkness , &c. p. 93. But F. B. has devised a false Information again , That at their Second-Day Meeting , March 23. 1695 / 6. their Teachers assembled together , and no doubt , great Consultings there were , and particularly about these words , Lawful and Rightful King , p. 92. What Ground has he for [ No Doubt ] in this Case ? I know no such Consultings among our Teachers , or that they assembled together to consult about those words . Thus F. B. vents his own false Imaginations , to expose us to the Displeasure of the King and Government , if he could . But , thanks be to God , F. B. and his Confederates are disappointed of their invidious Designs and Ends. And suppose the Name of King William was not mentioned in the said Testimony , ( yet in p. 95 , 96 , it is twice mentioned in another , as 't is recited by himself ) and there is enough in it to shew , that King William was really intended , particularly in these words , viz. And we sincerely Bless God , and are heartily Thankful to the King and Government for the Liberty and Priviledges we enjoy under them by Law ; esteeming it our Duty to be true and faithful to them . Whereby we could mean no other King than K. William III. because no other King confirmed to us that Liberty by Law , which now we enjoy , as that of our Consciences , in the free Exercise of Religion and Worship , as we are perswaded of God. However this Toleration and Liberty of Conscience , legally Confirmed , appears greatly grudged by our Persecutors , such as F. Bugg , and a few Priests , who are his Abettors . For in opposition thereunto he assumes the Boldness to promote in Print , an Abstract of Two Letters from Two worthy Clergy-Men ( as he calls them ) to their Acquaintance in the City , wherein ( as related by him ) is this Passage , viz. I pray God open the Eyes of our Governours , and cause them to take into Consideration this too much and too deplorable , unlimited and unbounded Toleration ( especially as the Quakers both claim and use it ) which , notwithstanding all the Care and Indefatigable Labour and Pains of the Watchmen of Israel , will certainly ( if not timely prevented ) be the Overthrow of our Church , and Christianity it self , &c. p. 84 , 85. Was it not a piece of Insolent Confidence , to expose this in Print , and thus openly to oppose the Liberty granted and legally Confirmed by the King and Parliament , and thus to render our Governours Blind in allowing it , and praying God to open their Eyes , &c. and inveighing against this Liberty , as too much and too deplorable , unlimitted and unbounded ? Are not these bold Aspersions , reflecting on the Wisdom and Conduct of both King and Parliament , to term the said Liberty Deplorable ? &c. But why so ? The Watchmen are afraid it should be the Overthrow of their Church ; they should rather have said , Of their gainful Trade : For their former Severities and Persecutions against Consciencious Dissenters ( which now it seems some of them would have renew'd again ) have been more Prejudicial and Injurious to Them and their Church , than ever either the Toleration was , or any Moderation or Lenity shewn by the more Moderate among them ; there being many now ashamed of Persecution , that were formerly concerned in it . To his Accusing me with Malice , and calling me Mercenary Whitehead , ( p. 98. Margent . ) This is like the rest of his scornful , abusive and false Detractions : But I shall not need to insist much further on Bugg's Abuse and gross Scandals cast upon Me , and many of Us , to Reproach the People called Quakers with his invented Figures , as that of a Pillory , The Quakers Synod , and his Cage , to represent us among every unclean and hateful Bird , as in Babylon , with 34 Names in it , set cross-wise , p. 130. ( the greater part of them being deceas'd ) which Cage he has in many of his Books : Which is all sorry Stuff , meer idle Mockery , Contempt and Folly , and as Contemptible in the Eyes of every Serious , Religious Reader , and Sober Spectator . And he is in the very Way himself , to be left in the Cage of every unclean and hateful Bird in Babylon , the Habitation of Devils , and Hold of every foul Spirit ; which he unjustly applies against us . It is a loud and horrid Calumny to say , That we are in a most Damnable Plot against the Christian Religion , p. 166 , 167. When we seek daily to promote it , in its Purity , both in Faith and Practice , Life and Conversation : For it stands not in empty Talk , and barren Profession . And as foul a Calumny it is against the People called Quakers , That such Hellish and Damnable Plot is the main Business of their whole Body , in their Convocations , both in their Monthly , Quarterly , Six-Week , Second-Day and Yearly Meetings , which ( he saith ) ought to be taken Care of , at least Inspected , p. 168. The Poor among us , if they understood these his wicked Invectives against our said Meetings , might see cause to Exclaim against this Incendiary , for seeking to Incense the Government against those very Meetings , wherein our Poor are taken Care of ; as in the most of the said Meetings . And as for the Growth of what he calls Quakerism , which he excites all Christians to take Care of , he undertakes to prescribe Methods to prevent it : Wherein he presumes to dictate to Authority such Restrictions and Limitations , as he and his Two or Three Norfolk-Priests have aim'd at , in Soliciting their late Petitions to the Parliament ; and yet Hypocritically pretends , he would not have us persecuted ; he would not have the Government fall upon us to destroy us ; no , by no means , he would not be understood so : For ( quoth he ) this I solemnly declare in the Fear of God , and as I hope for Mercy at the great Day of Account , when both they and I shall appear before the great Tribunal , I do desire neither ; ( i. e. Fire from Heaven to consume them , nor the Government to fall upon them , &c. ) I would not have a Hair of their Head hurt , p. 169. Has not F. B. here made a great Asseveration , As he hopes for Mercy , &c. to shew himself thus demure and innocent towards the Quakers ? No , he would not have a Hair of their Head hurt . And yet bitterly Asperse their Convocations , or Meetings , Monthly , Quarterly , &c. as if their main Business were for carrying on a hellish and damnable Plot , consequently to be suppressed . O horrid Falshood , Hypocrisie and Envy , that a Person should thus presumptuously Swear , with Imprecation included , As he hopes for Mercy at the great Day , he desires not our Destruction ; he would not have a Hair of our Head hurt ; yet would have our said Meetings put by , which are to promote Christian Charity , and the Exercise and Practice of pure Religion and Christianity , ( and wherein we have Divine Worship also ) and yet he reckons Suffering the ready way to increase them , ( i. e. the Quakers ) for they glory in nothing more ( saith he ) than to be thought great Sufferers , ( p. Ibid. ) So that he pretends to be against that Cause : No ( saith he ) let them have Liberty in their Licensed Meeting-Houses , to preach , pray , and exercise their Talent , equal with others , if the Government think fit , ( p. Ibid. ) So that these are no Meetings to carry on any horrid Plot ; they are Licensed Meeting-Houses to preach , pray , and exercise our Talent in . But F. B. does not think fit we should have our Monthly , Quarterly Meetings , &c. though they be in the same Meeting-Houses , and have both Preaching , Praying , and Exercising our Spiritual Talent in them ; as also our Care of the Poor , Fatherless and Widows : But F. B. will have the main Business in these to be the carrying on of a hellish , damnable Plot against Christ and Christianity , &c. consequently the Quakers to be limitted only to Preaching , Praying , and Exercising their Talent in their Licens'd Meeting-Houses ; at this rate our Poor must starve , and our Christian Profession be scandaliz'd by any loose and disorderly Walkers , and false Pretenders to it , without Reprehension : No Care nor Christian Discipline in such Cases to be exercised , if no Meetings may be allow'd for these good and necessary Ends. And I dare say , he wrongs other Dissenters , in saying , This is all they desire or expect , namely , Liberty in their Licensed Meeting-Houses , to Preach , Pray , and Exercise their Talent ; for I am perswaded , many of them are so Consciencious , as to allow the Extent of Religious Exercises to Practice Acts of Charity , Discipline and Order among them , as well as in Preaching and Praying , &c. Again , in his Pretence to let us have Liberty equal with others , he appears very Insincere and Contradictory to himself : For p. 171. he dictates this Restriction for a firm and lasting Cure , To admit each Congregation of Quakers to have their Teacher , or Two , if One will not do ; and likewise , that those Teachers may attend only their own Flock , and not to range all the World over ; at most , not above Five or Ten Miles , to hold forth , &c. Thus he dictates to Authority for Restrictions to be put upon our Ministers , not only to confine them to several Congregations , but also from Travelling in the Work of the Ministry above Five or Ten Mines ( somewhat like the Oxford-Act , upon which many suffered Imprisonment for six Months , &c. ) So that this presumptuous Dictator's Work still tends to renew Persecution , and to confront the Liberty of Conscience already Graciously Granted by the King and Government . And I don't believe , that other Dissenters from the Church of England are contented with such Restrictions as F. Bugg has dictated in this Case , viz. That their Ministers should at most not Travel above Five or Ten Miles to Preach , as he would insinuate , ( p. Ibid. ) His dictating to Authority against us , to stop the Growth of Quakerism , ( p. 169 , 170 , 171. ) appears empty , silly and boasting , as well as envious and interfering with the Liberty granted . For as one swelling in his Pride and empty Boasting , First , ( he saith ) Let G. Whitehead , and some other of the Quakers chief Leaders , and Fr. Bugg , be summon'd by Authority to Appear ; as if he were such an Eminent Champion , that none were fit to appear to meet him , but some Chief Leaders ( as he calls them . ) One would think the Man should be asham'd of such Dictating and Boasting ; as also of his Challenging of G. W. and others , when he knows in his own Conscience he has been so often detected of horrid Falshoods and Forgeries , particularly in that part of my Charge against him , ( which he leaves out in his Challenge ) viz. That in his late Book , New Rome Arraigned , he has forged notorious Lyes in other Men's Names , to ridicule , defame and scandalize divers Citizens of London , and Men of good Repute ; condemning them also to the Pillory , as Perjur'd Persons , in his pretended Trial , in a way of Judicature , unwarrantably acted by himself , &c. as 't is charg'd in Quakers Vindication against F. Bugg 's Calumnies : Which part of the Charge he skips , and is afraid to touch with it in his Challenge : And the other part of his wronging the People called Quakers , both in Charge , Citation and Observation , is abundantly prov'd against him , not only in that Sheet , but in other Answers of mine ; and therefore his Cracking , Vapouring , Boasting and Challenging , looks most silly and insolent , and deserves to be slighted and contemned by all Peaceable , Serious and Religious Persons . His Norfolk-Priests , who abetted him , have greatly labour'd to acquit themselves from being the Challengers of our Friends , and labour'd to cast the blame of first Challenging upon the Quakers in Norfolk , as if it were a Crime to Challenge ; but let them read what an insulting , vapouring , daring Challenge their Tool and Agent F. Bugg makes in his Appendix , ( p. 171 , 172. Taunting against the Quaker Teachers ( as he calls them ) viz. You may Challenge them long enough , but cannot get them out of their holes ; they see and know they are discovered , this makes them timorous ; Fearfulness surprizes the Hypocrite , &c. p. 171. And , The way to deal with such cunning Sophisters , G. W , &c. is , still to pursue them with Challenges , to call them into the Field ; and thereupon I will pitch my Standard here , in behalf of the Christian Religion , and Protestant Profession , against Quakerism , head and tail , & C. and let us Dispute it out fairly , and above Board ; and thereupon I shall renew my Challenge , and let it stand here as a Monument of the Quakers Cowardise and Self-condemnation , & C. p. 172. Now F. B. may'st thou not be ashamed , thus to brag and vapour , and thus basely to fling Fearfulness and Cowardise upon us ? What Earnings didst thou make in our late Discourse before the Bishop of Norwich , and Four Members of Parliament , at the Bishop's House , near Jame's Square , Westminster ? Do'st thou not remember how soberly thou wast answered , both by me and the other two Friends present ? And how I discovered thy repeated Falshoods , Forgery , Deceit and Wickedness , in divers matters wherein thy Quarrel much depends against us ? And how thou wast confounded , when Matters were closely urg'd and argu'd upon thee , both about the Holy Scriptures , and thy charging the Quakers Prophets with giving Witness to G. Fox instead of Christ , and calling him ( G. F. ) the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness ? &c. Which notorious Falshood often charg'd upon thee , thou could'st never produce Proof for , though thou hast often repeated it against us after an insolent manner ; as in p. 121. and as thou hast partly done , by way of Question , in this thy Pilgrim's Progress , p. 135. viz. Do they not all agree in the main , That G. Fox was the Quakers Branch and Star , yea , their All in All ; the Bottom , and Corner , and Top-Stone of their Building ? Answer . We deny any such Agreement ; and thou couldst never yet prove it ; nor hast thou shewn us any Book of ours , wherein G. Fox is so called or esteemed by us , no more than thou canst prove , that the Quakers speak so contemptuously of the Scriptures , as to call them Beastly Ware , &c. which old refuted Lye thou hast again repeated over and over , ( p. 172 , 173. ) as also , that they say , The holy Scripture is Carnal , Dust , Death , &c. as in thy New Rome Unmask'd , see Cr. 6. p. 78. And also thy fictitious Sermon , which again thou falsly termest George Whitehead's Sermon , p. 168. wherein thou hast grosly abused and belyed him and W. B. and profaned the Sacred Name of God , ( with other Abuses and Defamations ) as it was evinced before the said Bishop of Norwich and Members of Parliament , to thy shame and confusion . What Ground hast thou then to Boast of our being Timerous to meet thee ? Or to Accuse us with Cowardise ? I told thee there before them at the Bishop's House , That I would not go over the Door-Threshold to meet thee , nor spend so much time then in Discoursing with thee , if it were not for their Sakes and Information , who were present , ( i. e. the Bishop and said Members of Parliament . ) Thy dictating lastly , That they ( i. e. the Quakers ) may not be permitted to teach School publickly , ( p. 171. ) This still shews a Spirit of Envy and Persecution in thee , like those Papists that would not suffer Protestants to Educate their own Children , or to discharge their Duty , as Parents , towards them , according to their Consciences . Thy many bitter Invectives , and false Clamours , against us , as also thy ambitious , presumptuous way of Dictating to the Government , to Incense them , does all bespeak a foul Persecuting Spirit in thee , and that thou art fallen , and caught in the Cage which thou hast feignedly formed a Figure of , unjustly to represent the State of those Persons , whom thou hast defamed and branded therewith . As I am not bound to trace all thy numerous Lyes , Calumnies and Perversions in thy Pilgrim's Progress , ( not herein touched ) so I therefore refer the Reader to other Answers of mine extant in Print , Entitled as followeth : 1. Judgment Fixed , Printed 1682. Chap. 7. from page 203 , to page 259. 2. The Quakers Answer to a Scandalous Libel , stiled , A Letter to the Quakers , in 1690. One half Sheet . 3. Innocency against Envy , 1681. Two Sheets and a half . 4. The Contentious Apostate , and his Blow Refelled , 1691. Four Sheets . 5. The Contentious Apostate Recharged . One Sheet . 6. A Charitable Essay , in order to Allay the Out-Rage of a Contentious Apostate , 1693. One Sheet . 7. The Quakers Vindication against Francis Bugg ' s Calumnies , 1693. One Sheet . 8. Innocency Triumphant , over Insolency and Out-rage , 1693. Five Sheets . 9. A Just Enquiry into the Libeller's Abuse , 1693. Two Sheets . Which Answers much of Bugg's Stuff , though that has not his Name . 10. The Counterfeit Convert , a Scandal to Christianity , 1694. Six Sheets and a half . 11. An Answer to Francis Bugg ' s Presumptuous Impeachment , 1695. One Sheet . 12. A Sober Expostulation with some of the Clergy , against their pretended Convert Francis Bugg , his repeated gross Abuse of the People called Quakers , 1697. Twelve Sheets : In Answer to several of his Books . Now , Reader , whoever peruses these Books , or but Six or Seven of the last of them mentioned , and compares F. Bugg's Books therewith , may find that they contain full Answers to his principal Objections , frequently repeated in his Books against us ; and what chiefly concerns Doctrine is comprehensively Answered in the 6th and 7th , viz. A Charitable Essay , and The Quakers Vindicated ; which , though but one Sheet a piece , I could never yet find any Reply to either , from F. Bugg . And the 8th , i. e. Innocency Triumphant , is so plain a Discovery and Confutation of his Forgeries , Perversions , Falshoods , and notorious Self-Contradictions , that the same is made obvious to every Impartial Reader . So that our Innocency stands still Triumphant ( in Christ Jesus ) over our Adversaries Outrage , Boasting , Scorn and Contempt . Glory to our God , and to the Lamb , who shall have the Victory , and Reign in Glory , and Triumph for Ever and Ever . A Brief Answer to Francis Bugg 's late Book , falsly stiled A Modest Defence , &c. HAving trac'd and observ'd the numerous , bitter and accumulated Calumnies , in the said pretended Modest Defence , and in many more of the same Author's Books , Scurrilous Pamphlets and Fictions against the peaceable People called Quakers , to incense the Civil Government against them ; and he being therein often Refuted , I am concern'd herein to take notice only of a few of his notorious Abuses , Misrepresentations and Perversions , viz. 1st , In his Dedication to the High Court of Parliament , ( p. 10. ) he tells them ; The Quakers tell you , They own the Scriptures to be given by Divine Inspiration , but mean not a word of it , like other Christians . 2dly , They tell you , they own a Scripture-Trinity , but mean not a word of it ; and that Your Honours will find it as difficult a thing to gain the true Meaning of the Quakers , touching the Divine Authority of the Holy Scriptures , and their Belief of a Scripture-Trinity , as Constantinus the Emperor found it in the Examination of Arius , the Heretick , to get his true meaning , touching the Faith of one Substance . And he would have them believe , The Quakers are such Enemies to the holy Scripture , as that they say , It is a rotten Foundation , Ibid. p. 11. And that with them it is Beastly Ware , &c. part 2. p. 29. And that they render the holy Scriptures to be of no more Authority than Aesop 's Fables , part 3. p. 40. Such abominable Falshoods this Incendiary presumes to Dedicate and Present to the Parliament , expresly contrary to our sincere and publick Confession to the Divine Authority of the holy Scriptures , as Eminently given by Divine Inspiration ; and our Estimation and Preference of the Bible to all other Books extant in the World ; though many of them may be given by a Degree of the same Divine Inspiration , yet the holy Scripture , contain'd in the Bible , have not only the Priority , but more Eminently and Signally Confirm'd by Divine Authority , more Comprehensive , and more Generally accepted , than other Books or Commentaries thereupon ; the holy Pen-Men of the Scriptures of Truth having also a higher Degree of Illumination and Inspiration , in many things , than other Writers in after-Ages : And Christ himself , whose blessed Testimonies are from him Recorded , received the Holy Ghost or Spirit not by Measure , but in Fulness ; and to be sure , we are bound in Conscience highly to prefer the Authors of Holy Scripture , i. e. Christ , his Apostles and Prophets , above our selves , or any other Writers whatsoever ; therefore we have cause to allow the Bible the Preference ( as well as Priority ) before other Books . But our embittered Adversary , to render us the said People Incredible , or not to be Believ'd , and such a difficult thing to gain the true Meaning of the Quakers , he thus treats us with his wonted Course of Defamation and Calumny , giving this pretended Relation , viz. That the honest Quakers ( for some such there are amongst them ) have suspected G. Whitehead to be a Jesuite , at least like them : This Witness is true , ( quoth F. B. ) Pref. p. 18. And farther , he proceeds with this Out-cry , viz. By which Evidence we may know , that the Quakers , like the Cretians , were always Lyars , evil Beasts , slow Bellies ; but not only so , but Lyars , Forgers ; and , to speak comparatively , Knights of the Post , Jesuits , and dangerous to the Government , &c. Pref. p. 19 , 20. Thus furiously he runs on , and clamours , like one without Eear or Wit ; he is Accountable for such odious Defamation ; and the Righteous Judge of all ( I doubt not ) will rebuke him for such his Folly and Outrage . He strives , in his Persecution against us , as if it were for Life , even for our Lives , in not only defaming G. Whitehead for a Jesuit , but the Quakers in General ; and yet some of them Honest Quakers too : Such Confusion Envy produces . But who these Honest Quakers are , that suspect G. W. to be a Jesuit , at least like them , we are to seek ; he tells us not who is his true Witness in this Case . G. W. utterly denies the Defamation against himself , and the rest of his Friends , called Quakers ; being known to be as wholly and absolutely Averse to Popery as any People in Christendom , and more than all Persecutors whatsoever ; Persecution being a principal Prop and Pillar of Popery , commonly raised by such Clamour and Outrage , as , Away with them , Hereticks and Schismaticks , they are Seditions , and Dangerous to the Government ; and then Imprisonment , Havock , Exile or Death , must follow , &c. To his other odious Calumny , viz. That the Quakers Church agrees with the Papists , That our Bible is a Brazen-fac'd Book , an unjust , corrupt and perverse Bible , part 1. p. 4. Oh Horrible ! The righteous Lord rebuke this Lying Spirit , which possesses this Poor Creature ! How like a furious Incendiary , in his boundless Outrage , does he Defame , and most unjustly Asperse the Innocent ! Are not the Bibles we frequently use in our Houses and Families , the same used by other Protestants , and allow'd by Authority ? Pray let this be observ'd , and further inquired into , that the notorious Lyes of this Adversary may more manifestly appear to the World , to his own and his Abettors shame and disgrace . And as I have often urg'd plain Proof from him , that the Quakers call the Scriptures Beastly Ware , but never yet could obtain it : So I now demand Proof , that they say , The Scripture is a rotten Foundation , as before ( Ded. p. 11. ) For Proof of this Lye , he has quoted a little Pamphlet , or Book , which he has rak'd up and Reprinted , Entitled , Ishmael and his Mother cast out , ( first printed in 1655. ) Upon the Margent , on the 14th page , he repeats the same gross Lye again thus , viz. The Holy Scriptures , they say , are a rotten Foundation : This is their ancient Testimony , from which they have not varied . This is F. B's Annotation against the People called Quakers ; but where is his Proof still ? 'T is upon these words , viz. With the Light thou art seen to be a Wrester of the Scriptures ; and thy rotten Foundation being ready to fall thee , &c. Here is no such word , as the Quakers saying , The Holy Scriptures are a rotten Foundation ; but the contrary , viz. Against that Adversary for Wresting the Scripture , and that he was judged thereby . And that the Scriptures of Truth proceeded from the Life and Power of God , were spoken by holy Men , as mov'd thereby ; as also , a true Declaration of God , the Words of God , who with his dear Son Christ Jesus , and Holy Spirit , and the Baptism thereof , are also confess'd in the said Book quoted ; but falsly noted on the Margent , as before , quite contrary to these Confessions unto the Truth , and Divine Authority of the Holy Scriptures . They that writ the said Book , Ishmael , &c. did judge that pretended Pastor , S. Townsend ( their then Adversary ) neither to be built upon Christ , nor upon the holy Scriptures , and that therefore neither of them was his Foundation , but a Spirit of Enmity , when he enviously writ and aspers'd those of us , that were then Prisoners for Conscience sake in Norwich Goal , which was in the year 1654. being 45 Years ago : He then , more like a busie Incendiary . than a Minister of Christ , with his envious , defaming Pamphlet , did Persecute us by Reproaches , to add Affliction to our Bonds , which then were severe , and we under Hardship in the depth of Winter , wherein my self ( with the rest ) had my share : Though I then was but weak and young , being but about 18 Years of Age , yet was in my Heart truly tender and sincere to God , and his Presence I often felt to strengthen me in that and divers other hard Imprisonments ( in Cromwel's time ) and by his Special , Divine Providence , I was supported in his Work and Service , blessed be his Name for ever ! Who also hath made me to Triumph in Christ , over Reproaches and Aspersions of This , and all other my most Implacable Adversaries . F. B. may think , he has found out a deadly Weapon against me , by his raking up , and reprinting the said Ishmael , &c. ( printed in 1655. ) But he does very ill , and very dis-ingenuously , in upbraiding me and my Friends , with some unwarrantable Expressions , which I have positively disown'd and disclaim'd in Two Books , as he knows . And yet from thence he unjustly asperseth the Quakers , That they dissemble the Doctrine of the Trinity , when they pretend to own it ; whilst in their Books , they damn it to the Pit and Lake , Ded. p. 11. And part 2. p. 22. ( Margent ) This is their ancient Testimony , to damn the blessed Trinity to the Pit of Hell , ( the like in Part 3. p. 35. ) I say , This is not true , 't is neither the Quakers Ancient nor Modern Testimony ; and the passage , upon which he makes this Note in the Margent , though never intended against either God , his Son , or Holy Spirit , or this Scripture-Trinity ( as I may say ) Yet I say , as to the said Passage , noted upon on the Margent , I have positively disown'd , those offensive Expressions , publickly in Print , in Two Books : The 1st Entitled , The Christianity of the People called Quakers , Vindicated , 1690. p. 28. The 2d , Truth and Innocency Vindicated , 1699. p. 51. Besides many Years since I corrected them , where I met with that Answer . And though I writ some Passages therein , yet I still affirm , I was not the Author of the said Unwarrantable Expressions , nor of divers other sharp ones ; but C. Atkinson , who miserably fell into Pollution and Condemnation , after my self and my other Fellow-Prisoners had left him in Prison , being discharg'd before him . I was sorry my Name was to that Answer , without distinction between my own Words and his . For though I was then but Young , Weak and Low , yet I still believe , and am satisfied , I had a Measure of Understanding given me of the Lord , and a Sense of his Power and Presence . And I do not deny but I writ some Part , or Paragraphs , in that Book aforesaid , by reason whereof ( I suppose ) my Name was to it ; and the Substance of what I writ , I cannot disown to this day , namely , 1. Asserting the Word , which was in the beginning , to be God , Christ , the Light , and the Foundation of Faith. 2. And that the Word was before the Scripture , or Writing , or Letter thereof was . 3. That Jesus Christ was the true and only Foundation , 1 Cor. 3. 11. This was in Opposition to our then Adversary's Asserting the Scripture to be the only Foundation of Faith , &c. And I cannot in the least believe , that there ever could be any Intention of Contempt , or Contemptible Expressions , design'd against God , or his Dear Son , or Holy Spirit , among us , or that we could be so grosly dark and ignorant , as to think to confine him in Darkness , who is an Omnipresent God , and he being Light , in whom is no Darkness at all ; this hath been our Principle from the beginning . But to fasten the whole Book , Ishmael , on G. W. F. B. saith , he owns the Book , viz. in Truth Defending , 1659. 1. From Tho. Smith's calling it G. Whitehead's Book . 2. From the words , Our Book . Part 1. p. 31 , 32. Answ. How far I then own'd it , I have signified : 1. As having writ some part of it . 2. But not then espousing the very words chiefly objected by F. B. and disown'd by me , as before ; but my own Construction then given , partly in these words , viz. And he that Dreams , and tells Lyes , contrary to the Scriptures of Truth , which we own , he with his Imaginations and Dreams is for the Lake , Rev. 21. 8. Yet what the Scripture saith of the Godhead , the Father , the Word , and the Spirit , which are one , 1 John 5. 7. we own ; Truth Defend . p. 1 , 2. Tho' I confess , I there questioned the Notion of Three Distinct or Divided Persons , as not Scripture , but an Imagination . And in our Disputes at Cambridge , in the same Year , 1659. My Opponents then Arguing , They ( i. e. the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost ) are Three Hees , therefore Three Persons ; and that because Christ was under the Water ( when baptised ) and the Holy Ghost then descended upon him like a Dove , therefore Three Distinct or Separate Persons ; I then thought such Arguing as much beside true Scripture-Divinity , as good Logick . However I cannot call to Mind , That ( at those Disputes I had with Tho. Smith , the Library-keeper , &c. in Cambridge , 1659. ) I either did own or defend that very Passage , now objected against us out of Ishmael , which I have disown'd and disclaim'd , as before : If I were now Conscious thereof , I should be sorry for it . To conclude this Point about the Trinity , I refer the Reader , 1. To a Catechism , in the Words and Phrases of Scripture , with this Imprimatur ; Guil. Sill. R. P. D. Henr. Episc. Lond. â Sacris Domesticis , printed 1693. wherein are these Questions and Answers , viz. Q Is there any more than One God ? A. There is none other God , but one , 1 Cor. 8. 4. Q. What is said of the Father , the Son , and the Holy Ghost ? A. It is said , That these Three are One , 1 John 5. 7. Note , Here they confine themselves to Scripture-Language . 2. 'T is worthy of Observation , what Dr. Burnet , now Bishop of Sarum , in the Life of John , Earl of Rochester , p. 104. speaking of the Trinity ; saith , Which for want of Terms fit to express them by , we call Persons ; and are called in Scripture the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost . Besides the false Printing , and bad English in the said Ishmael , ( as F. B. has expos'd it ) there 's another Defect ; after the words [ The Lake is thy Portion , which is the Portion of Lyars ] the words [ except thou speedily Repent ] are omitted there , and in some other places . The Old Impression I have not seen for many Years , nor do I know where to find it , tho' it seems F. B. hath industriously sought it out , and reprinted it ( after a fashion ) with his perverse Annotations in the Margent , to reproach Quakers withal . And now , let 's a little observe F. B.'s Definition of Person , part 1. p. 18 , 19. viz. From the words [ God , Christ , the Light , the Word , the Spirit , the Truth , the Kingdom of God within me , and these are one ] F. B. infers ; viz. Reader , here is in the Quakers Essence Septem Personas . — Also from the words [ Stumble not at the Light , for if thou dost , thou stumblest at God , at Christ , at the Door , the Way , the Truth , Life , the Rock , the Elect Stone ; and all these are but One ] Here again ( quoth he ) is One added ; here is Octo Personas in the unity of their Essence . Hence observe ( by the way ) what rare Syntax he makes , viz. Here is Octo Personas , instead of , Here are Octo Personae ; but chiefly , how he has defined Person , which is not our Term for those Names given to Christ , for to make so many Persons of Christ , as Names are given to him , as those in Metaphors , Parables and Similitudes , which are numerous in Sacred Scriptures ; may he not then , by such Logick or Dofinition , render Christ to be an Hundred Persons in One Essence ? What silly Conceits float in this Man 's giddy Head ! What think his Friends of the Clergy of him ? Is he a fit Champion to undertake to defend both Theml , their Church , and the Protestant Religion ? Moreover , I do confess , That altho' I have often seen it my Duty , to explain some of our Christian Friends Meanings , when mistaken or perverted by our Adversaries , I really believe , I have truly Construed their Intentions , and that I have cause to understand the same better than our Adversaries , or Enemies . And as for my own part , I have learn'd that Humility and Self denial , that I am not Conscious of being Pertinacious against Light , true Conviction , or holy Scripture Testimony . And I hope also this Advertisement may satisfie every Charitable and Ingenuous Reader , having been Sincere and Consciencious towards God from my Youth upward to this day , according to the Measure of Light and Understanding he hath bestowed upon me ; humbly hoping , and verily believing , he will so preserve me in Christ unto the End. 'T is observable how insulting and boasting this F. Bugg is in his Dedication to the Parliament , comparing himself , in his Work of Darkness against the Light , with Daniel his bursting in sunder the Baby lonish Dragon : Even so ( quoth Bugg ) have I been instrumental , and burst in sunder the Quakers great Idol , their Darkness within , which they call the Light within . Thus presumptuously he Boasts and Blasphemes , contrary to his former Confession to the Light , which we ( called Quakers ) profess , according to John 1. 4 , 9. There is a Wo to such as put Light for Darkness , and Darkness for Light. He proceeds in his empty Boasting and Insulting thus , viz. I have cut down the lofty Weeds and tall Cedars , Pref. p. 27. The Sting of Quakerism being taken out , and the Bowels thereof ript up , and their Inside turn'd outward , Part 2. p. 31. And having taken this Snake , Quakerism , out of the Grass , and laid her on the Table , and taken out her Sting , Ibid. p. 27. But Reader , I have not done with this Snake , but must have the other blow at her , and smite off her Head , lest she get into the King's High Court of Parliament to do mischief ; for she is a mischievous Beast , and full of deadly Poison , and begins to stink all the Nation over , Ibid. p. 30. Thus far F. B. Now let the serious Reader judge , what a presumptuous , reviling Boaster this is , as if the High Court of Parliament were much beholden to him , for his Defence of them , by thus shamefully Reviling the Quakers . But how helpless , mean and indigent , does he Imply the Parliament to be , to have need of such a Physitian to prepare them Antidotes ! And then , what lofty Weeds and tall Cedars has he cut down among the Quakers ? What great Execution has he done , by his bitter Invectives , Scorn , Railery , and Profanation of the Sacred Name of God and Christ , as before is manifest ? Have not his mischievous Attempts ( tending to a New Persecution ) made him stink in the Nostrils of all Moderate , Serious and Unprejudiced Readers , and Observers of his Works of Revenge and Malice , thereby making himself ( and Abettors ) Infamous , while he seeks to make himself Famous ? But God will debase his Pride and Presumption ! Altho' he would render himself an Eminent Champion , as having Cut down and slain Quakerism , yet eagerly endeavours to Influence both King and Parliament against us ; he presumes to Dedicate his bitter and scurrilous Invectives against us to the King 's High Court of Parliament , superlatively stiling himself , Your Honours most Humble and most Obedient Servant ; and arrogantly presumes to write an Address to his Majesty King William the Third , therein also stiling himself , One of the Meanest , yet most Dutiful Subject , Francis Bugg ; therein notifying G. Whitehead in particular ; and in pretence , Most humbly Praying in the Name of the Church of England , and other his Dissenting Protestants , that Care may be taken to suppress the same ; i. e. the Quakers Doctrine and Books , ( viz. such as he writes against . ) In which he would also encourage the King to Judge , who is in the Wrong , and to punish accordingly . And in this Case ( saith he ) let not the King respect Persons in Judgment , &c. Hence observe the Presumption of this silly Creature , thus to presume to be the King's Dictator , and that in the Name of the Church of England , and other Protestant Dissenters too , to Influence and Incense him against his Peaceable Subjects , called Quakers , as if nothing short of Punishment , Persecution and Suppressing , would pacify his Revenge against us ! But how comes F. Bugg thus confidently to Address King William in the Name of the Church of England , and other his Majesty's Dissenting Protestants , as if they had set him on Work , so bitterly to Inveigh against the People called Quakers , as he hath done ? Seeing in his Dedication to the Parliament he tells them , He can with good Conscience say , That from first to last , no Clergy-Man in the Kingdom ever asked or desired him to write one Book , Page or Line , against the Quakers ; nor have any one Man , Clergy or Laity , seen this Book , till printed . If this be true , then both the Clergy , Laity , and all others , are so far Excusable , as to this Book of his , unjustly stiled , A Modest Defence : But then , hath he not wronged the Church of England , and Dissenting Protestants too , by his Addressing the King in their Names against the Quakers , seeing they neither asked nor desired him to write one Book , Page or Line , against the Quakers ; no , not one Clergy-Man in the Kingdom ? &c. If none of the Church of England , nor any other , set him at work , how durst he Address the King expresly in their Names ? If he writ Truly to the Parliament , how could he so write Truly or Honestly to the King ? What an officious Agent was he then , so peremptorily to Address the King against the Quakers , their Doctrine and Books , in the Name of the Church of England , and other Dissenting Protestants , and that for Punishment too ? He seeks to Incense both King and Parliament , and Church of England , and other Dissenting Protestants , against the peaceable People called Quakers , as if he aim'd at their sole Ruin and Destruction . For which End they shall not want his Exclamations of Heresie and Blasphemy , Cheats , Impostors , Jesuits , &c. ay , to Incense the World against them , if he could . But God's Power is above the Devils ! Glory to our God , and to the Lamb , that sits upon the Throne for Ever and Ever ! I conclude with this Scripture , as applicable to our Persecuting Adversary . Psalm 36. 1. There is no Fear of God before his Eyes . ( v. 2. ) He flattereth himself in his own Eyes , until his Iniquity be found to be hateful . ( v 3. ) The words of his mouth are Iniquity and Deceit . ( v. 4. ) He deviseth Mischief upon his Bed , &c. FINIS . 
A96404	----	The three Norfolk clergymens brief discovery, &c. presented by them to the king and Parliament, against the people call'd Quakers, modestly observed to our superiours. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1699 Approx. 2 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-IV TIFF page image. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A96404 Wing W1964 ESTC R186530 47683552 ocm 47683552 173006 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A96404) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 173006) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2661:11) The three Norfolk clergymens brief discovery, &c. presented by them to the king and Parliament, against the people call'd Quakers, modestly observed to our superiours. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1 sheet ([1] p.). Printed and sold by T. Sowle ..., London, : 1699. Reproduction of original in: Friends' Library (London, England). Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- England -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. Broadsides -- England -- London -- 17th century. 2007-06 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-07 Robyn Anspach Sampled and proofread 2007-07 Robyn Anspach Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion The Three Norfolk Clergy-Mens Brief Discovery , &c. Presented by them to the King and Parliament , against the People call'd Quakers , Modestly Observed to our Superiours , IT does not Surprize us to be Evilly Intreated , and especially by those that have an Interest in doing it . But if Conscience prevailed more than Contention , and Charity over-ruled Prejudice , we might hope for fairer Quarter from our Adversaries . But such is our Unhappiness , that nothing less will satisfie them , than breaking in upon the Indulgence that we enjoy ; if they could perswade the Government to Second their Attempts to a new Persecution . In Order to which , we perceive they have been hard at Work , to Pervert our Books , Violate our Sense , Abuse our Practice , and Ridicule our Persons ; knowing very well with whom they have to do , and that the Patience of our Profession is their Security in Abusing of it . However , if it has Weight enough with our Superiours to Expect a Fresh Defence of our Principles and Practices , we shall ( with God's Assistance ) be ready for their Satisfaction , once more , to Justifie both , against the Insults of our Restless Adversaries : Who , otherwise , we take leave to say , would not deserve our Notice ; since we have already Repeatedly Answered their Objections in Print , and think it our Duty as well as Wisdom to use the Liberty , the Government has favoured us with , in as Peaceable and Inoffensive a manner as may be . London , Printed and Sold by T. Sowle , in White-Hart-Court in Gracious-Street , and at the Bible in Leaden-Hall-Street , 1699. 
A96405	----	To the monthly and quarterly meetings of Friends in England, Wales, London, the twenty six day of the sixth month, 1692. Society of Friends. Meeting for Sufferings. 1692 Approx. 4 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-IV TIFF page image. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A96405 Wing W1966 ESTC R186531 47683553 ocm 47683553 173007 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A96405) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 173007) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2661:12) To the monthly and quarterly meetings of Friends in England, Wales, London, the twenty six day of the sixth month, 1692. Society of Friends. Meeting for Sufferings. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1 sheet ([1] p.). s.n., [S.l. : 1692] Signed: George Whitehead, Samuell Waldenfield, John Vaughton, William Bingley, John Feild. Reproduction of original in: Friends' Library (London, England). Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Quakers -- Ireland -- Early works to 1800. Society of Friends -- Charities -- Early works to 1800. Society of Friends -- England -- Congresses -- Early works to 1800. Charities -- Ireland -- Early works to 1800. Broadsides -- England -- London -- 17th century. 2007-06 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-11 Elspeth Healey Sampled and proofread 2007-11 Elspeth Healey Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion To the Monthly , and Quarterly Meetings of Friends , in England and Wales ; LONDON , the twenty six Day of the sixth Month , 1692. Dear Friends and Brethern , WIth our Dear and Tender love to you , and all the Faithful in Christ Jesus : These are to Acquaint you , that since our late printed Epistle from our Meeting for Sufferings , for a Collection for our poor distressed Friends in Ireland , we have had divers Accounts from thence by Letters , both of their disposal of what hath been already sent them from hence ; and also how little away it went , when distributed to the many Particulars towards their Supply ; however , Friends love and care for them here is very Acceptable to them . We find they are very Charitable and Tender one towards another ; in so much , that although the Calamity was general , and very Heavy upon them , that those that had something left , who were but few in Number , did readily contribute to them that wanted present Subsistance , by several large Collections among themselves . And they considering our charges here in England was great , have been the more tender and backward to apply to Friends here for Relief , altho but few Friends there can Administer to such a great Number of Friends , who are in a very poor and low Condition , and many in great want ; some having lost all , the very Cloathes off their Backs . Their general Loss hath been computed to amount to about Fifty Thousand Pounds , and their Number not more then Friends in Yorkshire . Now Dear Brethren , The intent of reminding you of these things , is , to intreat you in the Love of God , and Tender Compassion to these our Suffering Friends and Brethren , Zealously to stir up Friends in your respective Meetings , to a speedy and Liberal Contribution , according to our aforesaid Epistle , considering their distressed case , as if it were your own ; and remembering their Liberality , and Christian Charity to Friends in England , when under sore Persecutions , their present Necessities being so great , requiring a speedy supply , that this Meeting hath already been constrained to Borrow one Thousand Pounds , to remit thither for their present Relief , upon the Credit of this said Collection ; yet we are perswaded the said sum will fall far short of supplying their great Necessities ; We therefore hope you will take all speedy care , effectually to hasten the said Collection . Signed by Order and on behalf of the Meeting for Sufferings , George Whitehead , Samuell Waldenfield , John Vaughton , William Bingley , John Feild . At our Meeting for Sufferings the , 2d day of the 7th Month , 1692. THis Meeting Desiring That the Friends in the Counties , and particuler Meetings , be acquainted of the renewed Accounts we received , of the Nessesities of our Dear Friends in Ireland , we have hinted at in the Letter above written , have ordered the same to be printed , that Friends may the more generally have it , and have accordingly now Signed the same . William Ingram , John Staploe , Alexander S●aton , John Kilbourn , Joseph Wasye , Theodor Eccleston , William Crouch , Thomas Cox , Henry Gouldney , Michael Russell , Samuel Waldenfield , John Constantine , Henry Lombe , Daniel Monro , Daniel Roberts , Daniel Quare , Daniel Wharley , John Hall , John Fiddeman , John Cade , Anthony Alexander , Josiah Ellis , John Vaughton , John Feild . 
A65879	----	The principal controversies between the litteral presbyters of the Kirk of Scotland, and the illuminated members of the Church of Christ, called Quakers· Truly collected, stated and opened, in a particular reply (herein specified) for general information and undeceiving the deceived. By an earnest contender for the most holy faith, which was once delivered to the saints. G. W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1672 Approx. 233 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 56 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65879 Wing W1947 ESTC R217169 99828869 99828869 33302 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65879) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 33302) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1962:8) The principal controversies between the litteral presbyters of the Kirk of Scotland, and the illuminated members of the Church of Christ, called Quakers· Truly collected, stated and opened, in a particular reply (herein specified) for general information and undeceiving the deceived. By an earnest contender for the most holy faith, which was once delivered to the saints. G. W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 83 [i.e. 91], [1] p. s.n.], [London : Printed in the year, 1672. G.W. = George Whitehead. Place of publication from Wing. Caption title on p. 7 reads: The principal controversies bewteen the litteral professors of the Kirk of Scotland, and the illuminated members of the Church of Christ, called Quakers, &c. Running title reads: The priests principles, answered. "The doctrines, contradictions, inconsistencies, and variations of the Presbiterian priests of Scotland .." has caption title on p. 75; register and pagination are continuous. Errata on recto of final leaf. Page 91 is misnumbered 83. In copy catalogued, leaf M2 (pages 89-90) are torn with some loss of print. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Church of Scotland -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Society of Friends -- Early works to 1800. Quakers -- Early works to 1800. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-06 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-08 Andrew Kuster Sampled and proofread 2005-08 Andrew Kuster Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion The Principal Controversies BETWEEN The Litteral Presbyters of the Kirk of Scotland , and the Illuminated Members of the Church of Christ , CALLED QUAKERS . Truly Collected , Stated and Opened , in a particular Reply ( herein specified ) for general Information and undeceiving the deceived . By an earnest Contender for the most Holy Faith , which was once delivered to the Saints . G. W. 1 Tim. 6.20 . Avoiding prophane and vain babling and oppositions of science , falsly so called . 2 Pet. 2.12 . But these as natural bruit Beasts , — speak evil of the things they understand not , &c. Vers. 13. Sporting themselves with their own deceivings . Vers. 14. Having Eyes full of Adultery , and that cannot cease from sin . — Printed in the Year , 1672. A Brief Introduction . Reader , HErein is asserted the real sufficiency of Divine Illumination and Inspiration , together with the Doctrine of the Saints Perfection in Christ , and his Universal Light and Grace to Mankind ; and thereby the real Use and End of the Holy Scriptures made known , and the pretious Truths therein Owned and Vindicated , from the gross Errours , Perversions , Absurdities , Reproaches , manifest Confusions and Contradictions of some Rigid Presbyters of Scotland , to whom this Tract containes a brief Reply ( in many short Paragraphs ) which was thus occasioned . Viz. Some of the Presbyterian Priests or Teachers in Scotland , having some years ago writ a great bundle against us , the People of God , called Quakers , in a way of slighting and deriding some things of Truth , which above ten years ago I wrote , in Answer to a Paper ( containing a pretended Answer to 26 Queries of Geo. Fox's , Junior ) with some Queries written by one Edw. Jamison , in whose Name , ( with two more ) the said bundle , against us , was conveyed in Manuscript to divers hands ( as a pretended Answer to mine ) which providentially after a long time was brought to my hands about four years ago , which then I perused , and collected the principal Heads and Passages in it , both of Doctrine , seeming Argumentation , and their Objections , which I have here inserted , in their own very words ( as I have their Book in Manuscript to evince ) and I wrote a Reply to each particular , for the clearing the Truth , and to manifest his and their abuse thereof ; and their gross perversion of the holy Scriptures , together with their self Contradictions , which are very apparent and easie to be seen by any unbyassed : And not only their weakness and defection appears , but their enmity , against the Doctrine of Perfection ( both as it relates to the truly Sanctified , and to their Faith and graces , which these Presbyters accuse , not only with Imperfection , but with Sin ) Their darkness against the Light of Christ within ; Their cruel partiallity against the free extent of Saving Grace ; their sinful unbelief against the Sufficiency of the Holy Spirits teaching ; their gross ignorance and scorn against Divine Inspiration , and Immediate Teaching in these dayes ; their carnal mindedness ( for their Traditional Ordinances of men ) against the Spiritual Dispensation of the Gospel , and New Covenant ( wherein the Antitype of all , even the enduring substance , and heavenly things themselves are enjoyed by the clear sighted Children of the day , beyond and above all Types , Shadows , and outward Representations or Memento's whatsoever . ) These and the like things are spoken to in my following Reply ; A Coppy whereof was sent into Scotland , for those concerned , soon after it was written ; whereof ( as I am informed ) Edw. Jamison had a Coppy ; but since I had no further Answer nor Reply from him . And now , since some of our Friends in Scotland considering that there would be a service in making the following Reply more Publick , and knowing that the said Edw. Jamison with divers more of his Brethren are of contentious and boasting spirits , and yet seem not ready or willing to take notice of such things as pinch them , while not made Publick ( as in this Case ) divers of our Friends in Scotland have hereupon desired the Printing and Publishing of this my Reply ; And , in Answer to their Requests , I have given them my first Copy thereof to divulge , desiring that all who Read it , may weigh the things therein contained , and that they eye and have regard to that Light of the Son of God in their Consciences , which manifests those things that are reprovable , and is able to endue the Creature with a Right Judgment , between those things that are of God , and those things that differ ; and so to try all things , and hold fast that which is Good. London , the 22th day of the 6th . Mon. 1672. From a Real Friend to all who desire to know the Way of Life and Peace . George Whitehead . THE PRINCIPAL CONTROVERSIES BETWEEN The Litteral Professors of the Kirk of Scotland , and the Illuminated Members of the Church of Christ , called Quakers , &c. Here are the Doctrines and Principles of some of the Presbyterian Priests of Scotland ; Collected out of a great Bundle in Manuscript ; Subscribed , Edw. Jamison , with other two Names on the outside , viz. Oswald Harland , Edward Orde ; Together with the Heads of many of his corrupt Reasons and perverse Arguments against the Truth and Scriptures , which are here detected , and the People of God , called Quakers , vindicated from his and their Aspersions , Calumnies and false Accusations therein . The Priest. YOV Have renounced Learning as Antichristian . Answer . That 's false . For , not Learning in it self simply considered , do we renounce , but the absurd and corrupt Idolatrous Use of it , by men of corrupt mindes , who have not Learned of Christ , but in their Antichristian Spirit deny his Immediate Teachings . Priest , Absurd arguings against clear and abundant Scripture-Proofes , which have been held forth by far more able than I am . Therefore , that my Answers have not Converted you , is not to me either Strange or a Disappointment . Answer . False again ; I argue not against clear Scripture , &c. but against thy abusing and perverting of it , as will yet further appear ; and much unprofitable labour thou mightest have spared and forborn ; whilst thy end was not to convert us , what was it for , to insult and boast over us ? And yet art far short of some that have dealt with us , if we were conquered and confuted before , hadst thou a mind to shew thy vallor over us , thou hast missed of this end also . Priest , I have born witness to the Truth against your way . Answ. Thou hast born witness to his work who is the Father of Lies , against the Truth , as will further appear to the shame of thee and thy confederates . Priest , There can hardly be brought any absurdity grosser for defence of your Cause , then it self , &c. Answ. Then it was gross and absurd in thee to make , raise and forge , so many absurdityes upon our Cause as thou hast done ; though they be very groundless , light , frothy and frivilous , as in this sequel will appear ; and become more obvious to the impartial spectators . Priest , The Light , the Spirit , Kingdom within , are taken in a dangerous unsound sence ( by Quakers ) in an enthusiastick sence as communicate without Scripture . Answ. It s both dangerous and unsound in thee and thy fellows , to oppose the Light and Spirits imediate teachings , and Kingdom within ; which both teacheth sufficiently and opens the Scriptures , and leads into all Truth ; and to Scoff at the true sence-hereof , though under the term Enthusiastick , or Enthusiasm ( however ironically and reproachfully rendred by you ) which if that be dangerous and unfound , then is divinely inspired unsound . Is this good Doctrine ? For , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in quo Deus est , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Deus divine , inspired ; Enthusiasmus , an Inspiration , it is the inspiration of the Almighty that gives understanding . Is this dangerous ? No ; unless to the Priests to discover their ignorance . And is not the Light , Spirit , Kingdom within , communicated before the Scriptures are truly understood and opened ? What darkness and error hast thou here implyed and signified ? And doth not the Light and Spirit , bring to the right use and end of the Scriptures which was given by inspiration ? Priest , There is no man free from sin in this life , &c. Christ doth not totally subdue it in this life . For that place , 1 Joh. 3 of Christs being manifest to destroy the works of the devil ; if ye take it so , may as well prove that Sathan shall not tempt a Child of God. A●sw . This plainly enough shews thy confusion , and ignorance of Christs manifestation and work ; and of his Vertue and Blood ; which destroyes the devils works , cleanseth from all sin , thorowly purgeth them that believe and follow him . Secondly , Thy Inference is gross and absurd : To charge all with sin whom Sathan Tempts ; or to make his Tempting Gods Children , a reason of their not having ●n totally subdued ; for Christ was Tempted , yet sinned not ; for the P●ince of darkness found nothing in him . And , he that abids in him , sins not . And we being made free from sin , and become the Servants of God , we have our fruit unto holiness . Was not this the good end of Christs coming ? What sayes Antichrist , Satan and his Agents and Sophisters to it ? Priest , Neither doth these Scriptures ( 1 Joh. 3.6 . Whoever is born of God sinneth not . Or that ver . 9. He that abids in him commits not sin , and chap. 5.18 . The evill one toucheth him not ) prove any thing , &c. Do they not prove any thing ? Sad Doctrine . Is this divulg'd in the Kirk of Scotland ? Thus to oppose , not onely Christs work , but the words of plain Scripture , and say they do not prove any thing ; when as they ( Viz. 1 Joh. 3.6 , 9. chap. 5.18 . ) prove that , Whoever is born of God sinneth not . He that abids in Christ sins not . The evil one toucheth him not . Doth this prove nothing ? Doth not this equally reflect upon Christs Apostles as well as us ? And implicitly say , they should have been silent , and not so have pleaded Christs manifestation , and the state of him that 's born of God , against Sin , Antichrist , and Decievers ; whereas they John wrot to were plainly cautioned , not to be decieved ; For he that doth righteousness is righteous , even as he is righteous . Priest , It 's not the words of Scripture pickt out which explain the sence , &c. This is nothing but a silly and gross cavilling , to insist upon bare words contrary to their sence . Answ. Must we then go to the Priests for their sence , contrary to plain Scripture , where t is neither parable nor allegory , who pick out , and reject plain Scripture according to their own private imaginations and conceptions ; and yet other whiles in contradiction to themselves , tell us the Scripture is the Rule ; Life is to be had in it , and not communicated without it ; but yet such Scriptures as apparently contradict their gross and Antichristian Principles , they can throw by and reject as proving nothing , as this corrupt minded man hath . Priest , By this way a man may prove the grossest blasphemies , as the Polythrites saying , there are many Gods from , 1 Cor. 8.5 . yet in the next verse , there is but one God , &c. Answ. First , Not by our use of the Scriptures , both fro ma● right mind and for a good end , namely , against sin . Secondly , And if in the next verse after , He that is born of God sinneth not , thou hadst proved that he doth Sin in that he is Tempted ; thou hadst said som●hing to thy business of accusing all Gods Children with Sin term of life , but herein the Scriptures own thee not . Priest , That 1 Joh. 3.6 , 9. is to be understood in a limitted sence , namely ; that they do not continue in Sin wilfully and with delight , without repentance . Answ. That 's not Johns sence but thine , which is as much as to say , his was not true ; for do they continue in Sin , and yet Sin not ? This is a contradiction , or do t●ey continue in it and still repent of it ? Where 's then the fruits and effects of true repentance ? Or is there not a time of confessing , repenting , and time of forsaking Sin ? And casting off every weight and burthen , and of being cleansed from all unrighteousness . Priest , They do not commit Sin with full consent , without controuling of the motions : The evil one toucheth them not to entangle them in such a way of sinning , &c. Answ. As much as to say , they do commit Sin , and the evil one doth touch them , but th●y Sin not with full consent ; which is all one as to say , John did not say true , when he said , Whoever is born of God sinneth not . The wicked one toucheth him not , &c. he commits not Sin ; but we have ground to believe him before Sathans Messengers , who thus have contended and disputed for his work . Priest , He is an Advocate for our Sins , is meant of the Sins present and to come . Answ. Not that Sin should allwayes remain in beli●vers , but that they should be called and delivered out of it , and become Gods Righteousness in him . Priest , His saying , ( if we Sin ) implyeth as much as ( when we Sin. ) Answ. Is this thy Learning thou hast boasted of ? Thus to pervert Scripture , and the very plain sence of words , as to make [ if we Sin ] as positive or absolute as , [ when we Sin ] so [ if ] in other cases may as well be taken for [ when ] as if we say , we have not sined , we make him a liar , is as much as when we say , we have not sinned , &c. what an absurdity would this imply against the Apostles , according to thy sence of him ; who but one impudent would not be ashamed thus grosly to abuse the Scriptures ? Which else where thou seemest to lay such great stress upon . Priest , We know in part , is an imperfect degree of knowledge , and so sinful . Answ. As this intends the Apostle , it s a false and erronious conclusion , it s ne●ther true morrally nor spiritually , degrees vary not the property of the thing , their knowledge they had by degrees was Gods gift to them , and was spiritual from above , an effect of Life and Truth ; which to say is sinful , so accuseth the cause of it which is blasphemous ; and if the Apostles knowledg was sinful because in part , then what were their Epistles , Pr●achings , Testimonies , &c. which proceeded from ( or were effects of ) their knowledge they had of God : Were they sinful ? If not , the cause and ground thereof could not be sinful , therefore away with such sinful stuff and false conclusions upon the Apostles as thou hast uttered . For the Wisdom which is from above , is pure , but yours is from beneath which is corrupt and sinful . Priest , It s false absurdity put upon our Doctrine , that we by it strengthen the hands of wickedness . For , Answ. Your bad fruits and those that follow you , who have learned from your corrupt Doctrines to plead and contend for Sin , both from the Pulpits to the Alehouses , Taverns and Play-houses , do manifest you guilty herein ; and we not to have wronged you in saying , you have strengthened the hands of wickedness by your sinful Doctrine , and many of you by your corrupt Lives also . Priest , For we teach that believers should be dayly ( by the strength of the Spirit ) fighting against the flesh . Answ. That 's but a cover , what incouragment give you them to fight against it , when you deny they shall ever over-come and be freed here . Priest , Paul and Barnabas sinned , either both or one of them , in that sharp contention . Answ. Not all their Life time , that contention held not so long as thy ( and your ) pleading for sin . Priest , Who strengtheneth then the hands of wickedness ? Whether you , who teach a believer may not onely Sin , but fall away from Truth , Grace , &c. Or we who teach that we do sin ; but that we cannot thereby fall wholly from Faith , from Grace , from God , &c. Answ. Not we but you : We exhort to diligence and watchfulness , to keep the Faith , to make their Calling and Election sure , that they may never fall , as the Apostles did ; and warn such as are not come to that growth , least they fall and draw back to perdition , which tends to beget into more fear , watchfulness and circumspection , and not into a false security , ease and liberty , as your Doctrine doth , which is for Sin term of Life ; and yet tell people they shall not ther●by fall away from Grace , &c. Priest , Dare any of you say , there is never any vain thoughts , &c. in Prayer , or anger against those that injure you ? If you dare say so , your Light within is but meer darkness , &c. Answ. The Controversy is not about our attainment , and for us to affirm what we have in that case would not decide it ; but we do affirm , that state is attainable , through Faith in the power of God which purifies the heart ; and our Light is not darkness , and the thoughts of the just are right ; and you that are in your vain thoughts and having anger when you Pray ; How do you fullfil Gods Command , and the Apostles Doctrine ? To hold up holy hands without wrath and doubting , Do not you offer up a Cains sacrifice herein ? And is not your Light ( or that which you put for Light ) darkness ? Priest , There is need even for a David to say , cleanse me from my secret sins . Answ. Not all his Life time , for then he received not an answer to his ●rayer , but h● testifies otherwise ; That God heard his Prayer , and granted his requests ; and c●mmended the state of the undefiled in the way , who do no iniquity , &c. but to argue that because he prayed to be cleansed from his secret sins , and therefore was not clean so long as he lived ( is all one to say ) therefore God heard him not ; which is gross and absurd . Priest , The Commands of God are of use to a believer , that cannot fulfil them in his Graces ; namely to convince him of sin , that he may be driven to lay hold on Christ for imputed Righteousness , for further supply of his Grace , &c. Answ. The intent of Gods Commands , were that they might be obeyed and fulfill●d , through that grace and ability God gives for that end , and not to be broken and transgressed ; for unbeleivers ( yea the world ) many times are convinced of Sin by the Spirit ; so thou hast grosly wronged the beleivers , in representing their state here but as a convinced state , which many who are unconverted are come to ; whereas they to whom God imputeth Righteousness ( and not Sin ) their Sin is covered , and in their Spirits is no gui●e , Psal. 32.1 , 2. see thy error and confusion . Priest , For Perfect Righteousness [ Inherent ] there is no promises to this sence , in all the Scriptures to any beleiver . Answ. The work of God and his Righteousness ( or Image which man was made in ) is Perfect , and this Christ comes to restore into again , and God hath promised and made known him for this end . And I will wash them from all their filthiness , saith the Lord , &c. The word Inherent is not mine , but obtruded upon me from a false intent . Priest , There are promises of a growth unto Believers , and of a fullness ; but this is to be meant of such as is consistent with some defects and a body of Sin. Answ. A growth and a fullness , and yet denies Pe●fection , and so the Apostles Doctrine , Eph. 4. A g●owth and a fullness consistent with a body of Sin : Is this the Principle and Faith of the Kirk of Scotland ? Surely here 's darkn●ss to be felt , Who can raise an absurdiy and confusion from this , grosser then it self ? Do●h not this growth and fullness consist by Christ and in him ? If so ; By whom consists Sin and its body ? Do they consist together ? Or is not the body of Sin put off , where the Circumcision of Christ is experienced ? Priest , Zecharias , his walking in all the Commands and Ordinances of God blameless : This Perfection was consisting with misbelief , Luke . 1.6 , 20. Answ. ( A gross errour again ) his blamelesness was in his walking in all the Commands of God , but his mis-belief was after , and was reproved or blamed by the Angel ; for he was smitten for it : But thy Doctrine tells us quite contrary , as much as mis-belief is blameless , because blamlesness consists with it as thou implyest ; But this is like much more . Priest , David , Job , Daniel , their failings are noted , which I might cite if I did not study brevity . Answ. So are their deliverances noted , and if thou wert not partial , and of a wrong Spirit thou wouldest note them . How hast thou studied brevity , to stuff up near 10 sheets of paper with quarrelling and cavilling against us , in reply to so little as was writ to thee ? Priest , How shall they believe without a Preacher ; Gods ordinary appointed Way for begeting Faith is by Preaching , and not by immediate teaching alone without Preaching . Answ. Gods appointed Way for begeting Faith is the Word of Faith , whcih is nigh in the heart , which the Apostles Preached ; and the inward teaching of the Spirit , without which there is no true and effectual Preaching , which directs and brings to the Word : Christ the Word , is the Author of Faith , whom God hath appointed for Salvation ; and he teaches both immediatly and instrumentally ; both inwardly and through Preaching openly , he is not limitted , yet no Preaching is truely effectual without him who is the chief Teacher . For , Priest , It might have been answered by one of your oppinion ; 2. Paul , your question is idle and vain , for most men believe without a Preacher ; they shall believe the Light within teaching them . Answ. If they cannot Preach except they be sent , then who must send them and give them power for that work but Christ ? Secondly , Neither do we so accuse Pauls question with being idle , nor say that most men believe without a Preacher ; especially if they believe the Light within teaching them ; for that is Christs Light who is the true Teacher , which brings to the substance of true Preaching and Teaching , which proceeds from the Light within . Priest , The Scriptures Preached , or the things contained in them is the ordinary way of begeting Faith. Answ. The things contained in them , seems a little to mend thy matter ; which things contained , were before the Scriptures or Writings were , and extend farther ; for some had and performed the things contained in the Law , which had not the Law ( Viz. outward ) and many in this day can testify , that the Spirit and Light within , hath manifested within , many things contained in Scripture before they read them outwardly there . Priest , The whole council of God Paul sheweth forth , Act. 20.27 . yet no other things then those which Moses and the Prophets did say ( the Scriptures ) Act. 26.22 . Answ. All Pauls Preaching or his whole council from God , is no● Recorded there , but little in comparison of what he P●eached Recorded ; he continued his Speech or Preaching till midnight , ver . 7. and talked even till break of day : Where is this Sermon Recorded ? Many Scriptu●es and Books were writ by the holy men , which we have not in the Bible ; were it not grose and false therefore to exclude them as no part of the councel of God ? Priest , Is not that another Gospel , that all the world over are taught Christ and his Gospel ? Answ. It is not our Gospel , therefore unjustly charged against us ; for not all the world over are taught , or are learned Christ and his Gospel , though all have a Light from him sufficient to teach . Priest , In the use of Scriptures we are to expect he will beget Faith , by his inward Teachings and Workings on the heart . Answ. the matter is somwhat mended , in confessing to his inward Teaching and Working on the heart , but in that it seems to be tyed up or limited to the use of the Scriptures , this d●nyes the sufficiency and extent of the Spirits inward Teaching , which many have who cannot read nor use Scriptures ; and those who having not the Law , were a Law to themselves , and shewed the works of the Law written in their hearts , &c. though the Scriptures of Truth , in their place we must needs own , in that Spirit that gave them forth ; but whereas other-whiles Preaching is made the cause but now the Scriptures ; this is to make the Scriptures and Preaching all one , and ●hen people may spare their mony they give to Priests for Preaching , and giving their Interpretations to the Scriptures , and onely read them with expectation of Christs inward teaching and working on the heart ; which indeed ought to be inwardly and Spiritually expected and waited for . Priest , He bid them search the Scriptures , for in them they thought to have eternal life ; and they testified of him , Joh. 5.39 . this thought could not be a delusion . Ans If this thought of their having Eternal Life in the Scriptures was not a delusion , then they had Eternal L●fe according to their thought ; but Christ testifies the contrary against ●hem in the following words saying , Ye will not come unto me , that ye might have life ; so to affirm they had it in the Scriptures , is to affirm they had Christ in the Scriptures , and that their searching them was their coming to Christ , which is both contrary to their state and opposite to Christs own words of them ; that they would not come unto him that they might have Life : And this contradicts thy former , and much of thy stuff about Scriptures . Priest , ●f the searching and believing the Testimony of Christ given by the Scriptures , be not really to find Eternal Life but an error , &c. ( such a thought as we blind Priests have ) then Christ would have told them of that error , and bid them look for Life by following the Light within . Answ. Believing the Testimony of Christ and searching the Scriptures , are to things , and the belief of which Testimony , comes not barely by s●a●ching them , for if it did ; then all that searched them had that belief , and so Life , &c. which is contrary to the truth of what is apparent concerning many , and to Christs own words of them , they thought to have Eternal Life in the Scriptures , and yet had neither heard the voyce of God at any time , nor seen his shape , they not believing him whom he sent ; nor would come to Christ that they might have Life . Priest , The Fathers , before the Scriptures were written , had the things contained in them by Revelations , audable Voices , Visions , Dreames , &c. not by the Light within , your Enthusiastick Fancy . Answ. Yes , It was by the Light within that they had the knowledge of those , and had Revelations , Prophecies , &c. For the Word of Prophecy was a Light to them ; and the inspiration of the Almighty gave them understanding , when God spoke in a dream or vision of the night , &c. and God hath promised , to pour down his Spirit upon all flesh , that sons and daughters may prophecy , young men may see visions , &c. Joel 2. was this a fancy ? Or to be mockt at as thou hast done ? ( Your Enthusiastick Fancy thou say●st ) what grose error and ignorance hast thou herein shewed . Priest , That Christ will now beget Faith , without the Scriptures Preached or known , it were as good an inference to say ; because , that by faith in Jesus Christ to come in the flesh , the Fathers under the old Testament were saved , therefore though one should not believe that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh , yea , though he should deny he is come he may be sav●d if he believe he is to come . Answ. An unequal parallel , and false inference ( and abuse against us ) to compare the Scriptures with Christs coming in the flesh , or to bring them in competition therewith ; and how did the Fathers know he was to come , but by the Light or Spi●it of Prophecy within ? And how did the Saints truly and effectually know he was come , but by the understanding and Eternal Life he had given them ? From whence Scriptures were given , and from whence they spoke and wrot . Priest , 1. You deny the main end of Scriptures , which is , that we by believing what is written of Christ. 2. In them may have Eternal Life , Joh. 20. 3. That we may find Eternal Life by searching , they testify of him . Answ. Nay , the main end of Scriptures we cannot deny , whilst we own and testifie to that Spirit which gave them forth ; and to him whom they testify of , to wit Christ , by whom they are to be fulfilled unto the true believer , that reads them in a right mind and Spirit . Secondly , But where having Life in them ( Viz. in the Scriptures ) is laid down as following believing ? This is an error depending upon the former , and a contradiction to the Scripture that saith , That believing ye might have Life through his name ; he doth not say , in the Scriptures , nor by searching them , but through his name of whom they testify , and those to whom these things were written , that they might beleive that Jesus is the Christ , &c. and have Life through his name . They were in some measure prepared ( by the Spirit or Light of Christ allready manifested ) to receive those things which tend●d to the furtherance of their Faith , and confirmation of their Belief concerning Christ , that they might have life through his name . Pr , Whoso holdeth this , denieth them really and interpretatively . Answ. Is this thy proof of thy false accusation against us of denying the Scriptures , that we deny them interpretatively ; so then our denying the Priests Interpretations upon Scripture which are not Scripture , must be deemed a denial of Scriptures , as if they were either the same or of equall authority with Scripture ; or when they tell us of finding Life in the Scriptures , we must take it for gran●ed , that they mean in their Interpretations upon them , whereby in many things they contradict plain Scripture as hath been proved any times ; so however , when they bid People search the Scriptures for Life Eternal ( in them ) they intend they should take their meanings along with them , and believe as they say , and so people must run into an implicite Faith , if they take things on their Authority and Credit ; for by their meanings and Interpretations , they can sit as Judges over Scriptures ( and tell people they must give the sence , and reconcile them ) and over the Lig●t and Spirit within , and tell them its but an Enthusiastick Fancy ; but who are not so Ign●ble as to receive a Belief or Faith from them on such a dark , implicite and slender account as this of Priests ? But wait in the Light of Christ within , for a right understanding of things that are Spiritual , relating to Faith and Salvation : Such find they have cause from the certain demonstration and testimony of the Spirit of Truth within , to believe Christs Light and Spirit rather then the Priests meanings , and private Interpretations , wrestings and perverting of Scriptures . Priest , It is not about the expression of the Word of God that debate should be kept up , if in a sound sence granted , that they are called the Words of God. Answ. So , Then the Scriptures are granted to be words of God , why then holdst thou debate against us , but to shew thy cavilling Spirit ? For the Word was that , from whence words and Scriptures proc●eded ; and came to the Prophets and Messengers of God before they spoke the words to Write them . Priest , Ye deny that Faith cometh by hearing of the Scriptures which is the Word of God ; for that we receiving them by Faith are saved ; which is plainly asserted , Joh. 5.39 . Answ. We deny that Faith comes barely by hearing the Scriptures , for if it did so come , then all that hear or read Scriptures must have Faith , and hear the Word , but we see the contrary ; and Christ told the Jewes they could not understand what he said because they could not hear his words , and yet they could hear Scriptures , and him speak outwardly to them : But this is a mistery hid from such as thou art ; and there were those whom the Word Preached did not profit , b●cause it was not mixt with Faith in them . Priest , Your selves acknowledg that they are the words of God , then this or that perticular saying is the Word of God ; seeing there is a singular where there is a plural . Answ. But Singular and Plural differs , and though there be a Singular included where there is a Plural , is it therefore good Logick to say that Singular includes Plural , or they are both one ? Or to sa● , that because there are Words of God in the Scriptures , and where there are words in the Plural , there must needs be a word in the Singular ; therefore these words are the Word and so are the Scriptures ? Is this thy L●arning and Logick ? Surely thou art so far from knowing the Word which lives for ever , and was before either the Scriptures or words in it were given out , that thou art yet as one senceless and confounded in thy expressions , and cavilling against ●ruth . Priest , The Scriptures in the Bible are called the Word of God , Mark. 7.13 . Answ. This is a very general expression of the Scriptures in the Bible being the Word of God , when they do not say so of themselves , whereas all the Scriptures in the Bible are so far from terming themselves the Word of God , in such an eminent expression , that they cannot all be truely termed his Words , there being in many places Recorded both words of Wicked men and Devils ; though the Historical part that relates these things be true , as to the narration of them : And they , Mark. 7.13 . that made the word of God of none effect by their Tradition , and rejected his Commandment , did really act contrary to the Word within , which Moses preached , and against the Law of God without , so that 's no proof of the Scriptures in the Bible being called the Word . Priest , That which maketh wise to Salvation , or maketh the man of God perfect , &c. is inspired of God , that is the Word of God which maketh wise , profiteth , 2 Tim. 3.15 . Answ. Here again hast thou fallen short of proof of thy matter , for where it is said , All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God , &c. [ Is ] is added : So it 's , All Scripture given by inspiration : But if that must be called the Word of God in thy sence , then it may be read , All the Word of God is given by Inspiration of God : How will that sound and signify ? Or , All the Word of God given by inspiration of God , &c. See thy ignorance and impertinency ▪ for though we grant that all Scripture given by Divine Inspiration is profitable to the man of God ; for the making Wise to Salvation , but it is through Faith , which words [ through Faith ] I find the● to have taken little notice of [ if any ] or of his being the man of God first , that knows the profit of the Scriptures which are given by Inspiration , that he may be Perfect , which the Priests deny in denying Perfection , and that he may be thorowly furnished : And many things were written , and directed to the Saints and not to the world , &c. But what thou concludest from hence doth not follow . Priest , Is there any Prophesie almost , or Book of the Scripture , but it calleth the things contained in them the Word of God. Thus saith the Lord , &c. Answ. For , as was hinted , there are many things written in the Scripture , that can neither properly be called the Word , nor are they words of God , as what the Serpent said to Eve , Pharaoh to Moses , false Priests and Prophets , in the true Prophets dayes , many things , and accusations which the Jewes said to Christ , Were these the Word of God ? Mayest thou not here see thy error and confusion ? Priest , There is nothing so much commendeth the necessity of the knowledge of Scriptures and Learning , as the horrid detestable absurdityes which men unlearned , &c. wresting Scriptures to their own perdition ; however they revile Study of Scriptures and Learning . Answ. There is nothing more discommendeth things , and the Priests Way of Learning and Studying the Scriptures , as your perverting and abusing them for your own ends and turns , and the P●iest making a Trade of them by their Learning ; and must people depend upon the fruits of your Study and Learning to know the Scriptures ? And yet other whiles they must expect to find Eternal Life in the Scriptures , to be made Wise unto Salvation by them ; What contradiction's here ? But if the Scripture given by Divine Inspiration , be profitable to the man of God , and by the same Inspiration be understood , and make Wise to Salvation through Fai●h ; and that the Spirit of Truth lead into all Truth , then wee 'l not be beholding to thee and such as thou art , for your Learning and Study , who deny the immediate Teaching of the Spirit , and so are but still unlearnd as to the things of God : And why doest thou villify us as unlearned , and make a flourish as if thou art some Eminent Learned man ? This shews thy Shallowness , Pride and Conceitedness , And were not Peter and John unlearned men , and so accounted by the Learned among the Jewes ? Yet were full of the holy Ghost and learned by it : Wouldst thou and thy Companions limmit the Gift of God , or a right understanding of Scriptures , to your natural drossy Learning and imaginary Study ? O! The Lord hath raised up and brought to light that Life and Spirit , which has brought many to see thorow you and your corrupt Learning , and Babylonish stuff . And whereas thou dost villify and jeer upon these words , Viz. That the word which the Bereans received with all readiness of mind , and the Scriptures which they searched are two things , and sayest , I purposely pass by that which follows Viz. Whether these things were so ? Answ. Are they not mentioned distinctly as two ? The Word they received , &c. the Scriptures they searched to see whether these things were so . Now there was more in Preaching then bare words or Scripture , For their gospel came not in word onely ; but in Spirit and in Power , which when that had touched their hearts , and they had received a sence of the Spirit and Life which the Apostles were Ministers of ; this prepared them for a further understanding , of things and matters relateing to the Testimony of Truth and of the Scriptures , when they searched them in that weak state wherein they were at first receit of Truth , for a further or additional confirmation of their understanding of things declared upon Scripture account touching Christ ; but if according to thy sence , the Word which they r●ceived with all readiness of mind , and the Scriptures ▪ which they searched , to see whether these things were so , were but one thing ; then , Is it good Doctrine to say , that when they received the Word with all readiness of mind , they searched the Word to see if those things in it were true , or to try the truth of them ? How then was it received with all readiness of mind ? Or was it the Scripture which they received with all readiness of mind , and th●n when they so received them , searched them to see whether those things where so ? ( Is this thy excellent Logick ? ) If so , then thy Doctrine runs thus ; They received the Scriptrues with all readiness of mind , and they searched the Scriptures to see whether the Scriptures were so , or for proof that the Scriptures were true , they must search the Scriptures to prove them true by themselves ; Will this be admitted of as excellent Logick in your Schoo●es , to prove an assertion by the same assertion , and to beg the question in controversie ? If so , then in all points asserted and disputed of , it is so because it is so , will serve for proof . Priest , The Word you say is one , How can it be called those things ? Answ. If the Word which I say is one , cannot be called those things , th●n it proves what I said bef●re , that the Word and Scriptures are two things , and that their receiving the Word with all readiness of mind was inward , but the Scriptures are outward , which they searched after they received the Word . Priest , Are the things written in the Scriptures , and the Scriptures two things ? What excellent Logick is this ? Answ. If they be not two things , and yet the Word ( which is but one ) and those things contained in them be two things , How are the Scriptures the Word , seeing the Word and those things are two ? Yet here again thou sh●west very little Learning as professed by thee ; for the Writing and the things written of , are two things as well as Scriptures , and the things contained in them , for there is the thing containing , and the things contained , according to the distinction of ( them and ) some of your selves . Priest , Or ye must take the Scriptures in the abstract , for the writen Characters as distinguisht from the things that are writ , so nothing can be either searched or found in a number of Characters . Answ. I know of none that appear so ridiculous as to search them meerly as a number of Characters , so abstract to prove things or matters , but to search them for those things or declarations contained in them which appear to the eye of the understanding , and not to the outward eye in the bare Characters ; and yet ( Scriptures ) signify ( Writings ) Priest , Whereas ye ask whether I think none hath Faith , so none shall be saved but those that hear the Scriptures by the outward ear or can read them ? What God may do , or doth in an extraordinary is not the question ; for his absolute Soveranity in his dispensations of Grace is not tied , &c , Answ. Then God and his dispensations of Grace are not limitted or tied as many other times thou , and others of you seem to tye up all now to Scripture for Life Eternal , for Faith , &c. other whiles to your Interpretations , Learning and the fruits of your study ; but the way to God and Salvation is Christ , And no man comes un●o the Father but by him ; nor none comes to the Son , but by the Fathers drawings , which are known in the Spirit and Light , by which we have access to God. Priest , The Scriptures search the thoughts as an Instrument , and Christ is the principal searcher . Answ. That 's Christ or the Word of God which is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart , that searches the heart ; And it s the Lord God of hosts that telleth unto man what his thoughts are , and searcheth the heart , who both can and doth sp●ak what he pleaseth , both of things declared in Scriptures and without them , as he sees meet to the perticular states of men and persons ; and so to lay so much upon Scriptures which belongs to God and Christ , and is properly their Work is unsound : And Wh●re provest thou the Scriptures search the thoughts ? And wher● say they so of themselves , when they do not speak and direct to any perticular Person and shew him his thoughts and actions perticularly , which the Light doth ? And the Spirit of Truth reproves and convinceth of the several evils whereof persons are guilty . It s the Lord that sets their sins in order before them . Priest , It is false , That any have a sincere supernatural Faith of the Scriptures that are ignorant of Christ , &c. They testify of him . Answ. So then they must have some knowledg of Christ , and from thence have a supernatural Faith of the Scriptures : But how doth this agree with much more of thy work , about searching the Scriptures for Life Eternal in them for begetting Faith &c. Priest , The foundation of the Saints and houshold of God , are the Phrophets and Apostles , Jesus Christ being the cheif corner-stone , Eph. 2.20 . Answ. Were not the Prophets and Apostles of that houshold of God ? If they were , then they were their own foundation according thy to assertion here , but thou hast wronged the Scripture ; for it was the foundation of the Prophe●s and Apostles ( mark of the Prophets and Apostles ) they were built upon Christ Jesus the cheif corner stone . Priest , By the Prophets and Apostles that are the foundation is meant their Doctrine , contained in the Scriptures , not the persons . Answ. Their Foundation was before their Doctrine or Scriptures : Another foudation can no man lay , then that which is already laid , which is Christ : But sure the Prophets and Apostles and Scriptures were not he . Priest , The Scripture makes known inward sins , of thoughts and lusts , Rom 7.7 . Is able to mak● the man of God perfect ; if they did not search into the thoughts of the heart , discovering who are blind and carnal , How can they make Wise unto Salvation ? Doth not the Scriptures make us Wise unto Salvation ? Therefore Are they not able to save us ? Christ as the principle cause of our Salvation , is said alone to save us . Answ. Thou meanest Christ as the principle searcher or the Spirit , but the Scriptures as the instrument ; and then thou shouldest have said , Christ makes known inward sins , the Spirit searcheth all things , And God Judgeth the secrets of men by Christ , according to the Gospel ; without the knowledg of Christ , there 's no supernatural faith of the Scriptures ; nor can any be made Wise unto Salvation , but through that Faith : And that Christ and the Spirit makes use of ( speaks and opens ) things contained in the Scripture many times , Who denies that ? For then he speaks ( and opens ) those things immediately ; and thus the Law was made convincing to Paul , not before it came thus ; and if on that account they be the instrumental cause , then its Christ , or the Spirit ( by h●s own speaking or teaching and openings ) that is the searcher and saviour : And then it were most proper to lay the stress upon him as the searcher and Saviour ; and not thus often tell of the Scriptures being the searcher of the thoughts , and of having in them Life Eternal ; lest also that ignorant persons go Idolatrously ( according to the tendency of much of thy matter ) to put them in the place of Christ , or seek to make them the Saviour , seeing that Christ ( the principle cause of our Salvation ) ( as thou confessest ) is said alone to save us , and if he alone save , its sufficient , people be directed to him for that end ; for in him all sufficiency is , who can now immediately speak matters contained in the Scriptures , as well as when they were first given by inspiration ; And it is the inspiration of the Allmighty that giveth the true understanding , without which the right use and end of the Scripture is not known . Priest , The Scriptures of Truth ( not I ) make four Saviours , Viz. The ingrafted Word , Faith , Scriptures , Timothy , &c. Answ. To us there is but one God , one Christ , one absolute Saviour , one Faith , &c. Priest , There is a Faith of the Scriptures that is historical , this is not sufficient , but this Faith may be of Christ as well , and yet they not be saved ; but who has saving , unfeigned , Supernatural Faith of Scriptures , cannot wa●t it of Christ. Answ. Well Then this saving Supernatural Faith of Scripture and of Chr●st , must come f●om a Supernatural Light , or Christ who is th● Light and Author of Faith. Priest , How shall they believe without a Preacher sent , Joh. 20. verse last , They must have the Scriptures who have the knowledge of Christ ; for without this they cannot be kept from hell . Answ. Who must send them if there be no immediate Teaching or Revelation now ? How provest thou thy Call from Scripture , and that thou art Comissionated by Christ to Preach ? Thou shouldest rather have said , they must have Christ who truely know the Scriptures , and without him they cannot be kept from hell . Priest , In th●se Commandments written is our Life , Deut. 30.15 , 16. Answ. The Word and Commandment was nigh them in their hearts , that they might obey it , and walk in the Commandments and live , see Verses 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. how herein thou hast diminished and wrested Scripture ; and that Word which was nigh in the heart the Apostles preached : It doth not say , in the Commandments written is your Life . Priest , But that all Nations have the knowledg of Christ ; It s in an Enthusiastical Bible ; &c These places , He enlightens every man that cometh into the world ; and , hath no resp●ct of Persons , are far wide from this conclusion , therefore all have the knowledg of Christ ; all the Turks , Jewes , Pagans , &c. Oh! What monstrous horrid Doctrine , &c. Answ. It is not our Assertion nor Conclusion , that all Nations or People have the knowledg of Christ ( herein hast thou abused us and our Principle ; ) for though he enlightens all , they all do not walk in the Light , nor believe in it : But all Nations and People that come ever to know Christ and be saved , must walk in his Light , Who is the Way , the Truth , and the Life . Priest , Christ as he is God , equal with the Father hath planted some Light of a natural conscience in every man of the world . Answ. In him was life , and the life was the light of men ; And he was that light , which enlighteth every man that comes into the world ; who is not natural , nor his Light that shines from him in the Conscience : And God is Light , who enlightens the World , and gave his good Spirit in the dayes of old to the Rebellious ; and sent his Son a Light into the World , That whosoever believes on him , might not perish but have eternal life : And here is the power and sufficiency both for Believing and Salvation . Priest , All men have a Light of a natural Conscience from him , which tells that there is a God , and somewhat of the nature of God , that he is Eternal ; which they may read in the creatures , Rom. 1.19 , 20. and of the morral Law , which yet is but very dark , &c. Answ. Where do the Scriptures call it a Light of a natural Conscience ? What great Ignorance is here , seeing Christ is the true Light that enlightens every man , &c. And that which might be known of God was manifested in them , which gave the knowledg of the Eternal Power and God-head from the creatures ; and of the Law of God in the heart , and that Light , or that which might be known of God which gave this knowledg , was not natural of a natural Conscience , as blindly is conceived and asserted ; for the natural man with his natural knowledg , perceives not those Spiritual or Invisible things , nor can he know them ; but he that 's turned to a Spiritual Light and Principle within , where that which may be known of God is manifested . Priest , But of Christ in his nature , and the nature of Faith , they cannot without the Scriptures , so far as it is Gods appointed Way . Answ. Christ is Gods appointed Way , &c. This high and general opinion of the Scriptures , depends upon the former conceit , of finding Eternal Life in them , by searching of them ; but that 's answered and contradicted by this our Antagonist himself , over and over : Supernatural knowledge and Faith of Scriptures , being not had without the knowledg of Christ ; but there are many search and read Scriptures , that are both out of this knowledg and Faith , so that t is evident , that the bare reading Scriptures doth not attract supernatural Faith , Knowledg , Light , Spirit , &c. but it is the supernatural Light and Spirit , that brings to the serious reading and supernatural knowledg of Scriptures : And it s also confessed in contradiction to much more ( however ) that the Light in all men teaches them of the morral Law ; and , Is not that Scripture or things contained in it ? Priest , The Light wherewith Christ enlightens all , all Nations had before Christ came in the flesh , as well as now ; and yet , Who will say that they all knew Christ ? Answ. It is not our saying nor assertion , that they all knew Christ , though some by his Spirit or Light then , had a fore-sight of his coming before he so came , though since he has given a more full demonstration and discovery of his Light. Priest , If all men are taught to know Christ by the Light within them , Why sent he Apostles to all Nations , to make them disciples ? Mat. 28.20 . Answ. All men are not taught that knowledg by the Light , because all obey it not , but many love darkness rather : The Apostles were sent to turn them from darkness to the Light , that therein they might know their Doctrine fulfilled , and be Christs disciples . Priest , Why did he give gifts to Apostels , Pastors , Teachers , which should continue till we all come to that unity of the Faith ; and fulness of the Stature of Christ ? Was that Light within dim in those times , that it needed the help of outward Light ? How was it a mystery hid from Ages ? Answ. The dimness was in the Persons that were to be turned , and directed to the Light , not in the Light it self ; and the Apostles went by virtue of the Light and Gifts in them , for the help of people and not the Light , for their sufficiency and help was in it , and from it , which was not outward nor natural ; and having confessed Gifts , Teachers , &c. to continue till we all come to the unity of the Faith , and fulness of the stature of Christ. How obviously hast thou herein contradicted thy former Doctrine , for imperfection and sin till death ? &c. Priest , You have made the visible Church very large , who have taken all the men of the world that ever hath been into it . If the Lord has given Grace and Knowledg equally to all men , Wherein stands the freedom of his Grace towards them that are saved ? Answ. These are both forged and false accusations , depending upon the former against us , for neither did we ever make the visible Church of that largness , nor is it our Principle , that Grace and Knowledge is given equally to all men ; that 's but thy false inference against us , whereupon thou hast grounded much of thy caviling against us ; like one that loves to fight with thy own shadow , or a man of straw of thy own makeing , to make and forge lies against us , and then go to confute them . Unprofitable and vain . Priest , Never did the greatest Enemy of free Grace , so tye up and limmit God in the dispensations of Grace as you , that with good words and fair speeches ( would ) deceive the Soules of the simple . Answ. Nay , Thou and such like , go about to tye up and limmit God in the dispensations of Grace , who would tye it up onely to a few , and deny its universal extent to all , and as those Priests of Scotland , that formerly curst all them that held Grace is free ; and that with good words and fair speeches , we would deceive the hearts of the simple , is a slander against us , and against our end and intentions , and contrary to the tendency of our words and speeches . Priest , Judas got as much from God as ▪ Peter did , but he rejected it , but Peter made better use of it . Your free Grace , that all men have received alike , doth not exclude boasting ; but say , Well was it with us that made better use of that , which others in hell got as well as we . Thanks to our deligence , and good intentions and tractableness , in harkning to the Light within , which all the damned got as bright shining , as well as we ; but for Christ , we have no cause to thank him more then the damned have . This is the Language your Doctrine of free Grace teacheth men to say in their thanks-giving . Answ. Here-upon several of thy false conclusions and inferences against us , thou hast thus uanted and made a false Language of our Doctrine , contrary to the very nature and tendency of it ; Who but men in hardness and impudent boldness , would go to confute , and raise absurdityes on our Principles when they do not know them , but are yet to learn as thou art with thy companions ? For it is not our Principle , nor the Language of our Doctrine that all have the knowledg of Christ [ equally ] and that Judas got as much from God as Peter , nor that free Grace all have received alike , nor that the damned got the Light within as bright shining as we ; but that God is no respecter of persons , in that he gives liberally to all , so much of his Grace to every one as is sufficient ; yet , not that all have received alike , or the same degree of Grace and Knowledg , &c. for all receive not ( or accept not ) that measure of Grace given to them to obey it . But whereas we are sco●● at for saying , the cause of som●s condemnation is their rejecting the Light , and their disobedience stubborness , &c. this is according to the Scripture Language as might be proved ar large : For the fault is not to be laid upon God , but upon man for his disobedience , when he is consumed because of iniquity , which is stubborness , rebellion , &c. For God willeth not the death of sinners , but rather their return that they may live ; and , O man thy destruction is of thy self ; But thy help is of me saith the Lord : so as God is clear when he judges . Now we can thank God without boasting , that he hath shewn such Love , Mercy , and Good will in Christ unto us ; and Christ that he hath shewn us Power , Life , and sufficiency in himself , both to believe , obey , and give diligence ; and the name of God we may praise , for all his Mercies and Blessings he attends us withal , in the way whereunto he hath called us , and indeed all Nations are called to praise the Lord , which if all do not , the fault is not Gods , nor to be charged upon him , or his free Grace , but theirs that reject it ; And have treasured up unto themselves , wrath against the day of wrath ; and on the other hand , they that count God a hard Master , and they that blaspheme against him in their Torment and Anguish , are but the slothful servants , and such as have not recieved the truth in the love of it ; but have had pleasure in their unrighteousness : And thereby have incurred displeasure from the righteous God , whose severity follows on them that reject his Love and Good-will : So these have not the Light as bright shining as we ; These being condemned from the presence of the Lord , and from the Glory of his Power . Priest , How comes it that there is none among all these persons throughout the Nations ( where the Scriptures have never been heard ) that have Written in the defence of the Christian Faith , and against the Paganish worship , & c. ? Travellers should have given some account of it , &c. Answ. As if the Scriptures were not onely the cause of Life , Faith , and Salvation ( according to thy former stuff ) but of all Writing in defence of the true Faith , &c. Then what was the cause and ground of Sciptures ? However , it appears thou art no great Traveller , nor hast had much acquaintance with such Travelers as we know have given account of more Christianity among divers of the heathen that have not Scripture , then is among many in England and Scotland , professing Christianity ; besides we find in divers of the heathens ( so called ) their Writings many things both Morral and Divine , both favouring of Christianity and of some spiritual sence , several of them had of the Nature and Life of Christianity which in it self is against all Idolatry of Pagans and others , though not in your borrowed terms and expressions of Religion and Christianity : And further , why should the Apostle make use of some of the heathens expressions , and Gentils experiences for proof , if they had no tendence to Christianity . Pr. But the best of those Nations and wisest , were the greatest Enemies to the Gospel . Answ. How provest thou that ( for we deny it ) and the ground of this thy peremptory censure and judgm●nt , against all them that had not Scripture ? Many of whom we believe were better then thy self ; and hast thou known the best and wisest of them , that thou art thus positive against them ? Pr. You have no warrant to say , that deaf persons to whom the Scriptures have no way been known , shall be saved . Answ. As much as to say , They that know not the Scriptures , know not Salvation , or shall not be saved ; thou shouldest have said . They that know not Christ , or come not to him fall short of Salvation , the coming to whom , is through the Fathers drawings , who drawes by his own Spirit ; and darest thou say , that deaf and blind persons shall not be saved , because they cannot hear and read Scripture . Pr. Before the Scriptures he taught by audible Voices , Revelations , &c. but now you make all to be the Light within . Answ. No Revelation is truely known without the Light within , for what may be known of God is manifest within . Pr. We deny that the Power of God is immediate ( Viz. in his people ) Ans. You may as well deny its being in his people , and their inward Communion with it , and therein you deny the very tenuor of the new Covenant , and hereby limmit that power to m●diate teaching , Scriptures , &c. what in you lies , which tends to eclipse and detract from that Glory , Sufficiency , and Prerogative that is in Gods Power ; this is very gross and ignorant . Pr , We grant it is true which the Metaphysitians and Divines say of God , that he concurreth in all works of creatures , immediatione vertutis & suppositi , but this ye know not what it meaneth . Answ. This makes against your selves if rightly considered , and falsly thou hast said of us ( or of me ) for I do know what that phrase means , both as to words and matter ; but , and if we did not know what is meant , why didest thou use thy Latine phrases and Scholastick terms , to such as thou deemest so illiterate ? Hast thou not herein shewed thy self a Bravado . Pr. He told us , he will exercise his power for us , and in us . Answ. He will exercise his power in us , and yet not immediate ; What contradiction's here ? Pr. Why the Grace of hope should be Christs more then the Grace of faith , &c. Answ. Ch●ist is the Grace of all our Graces , and our all , a mystery hid from thee and those of thy spirit . Pr. Faith is a habit and an imperfect creature , for all habits are in the category of quallity , which is an accident and so an imperfect creature . Answ. What Scripture have you Priests of Scotland for that ? Of Faith being a habit , an imperfect creature , or accident ; and , Is accident and habit all one ? Where learned'st this Phylosophy to define Faith ? True Faith is not natural , nor a natural habit however , for thou hast granted a supernatural saving Faith , but t is but a habit , an imperfect creature , whereas Faith is a fruit of the Spirit which is pure and perfect , and the mystery of it is held in the pure conscience ; but if thou meanest imperfect creature as to the kind or quallity , its false Doctrine , and its being received by degrees doth not prove it ; for it s as truly and purely Faith and that of God , and supernatural in the least degree ( yea if but as a grain of mustard-seed ) as in the greatest measure of it . Pr. It is as impossible it should be otherwise , as it is that a man abiding a man should essentially be a beast . Ans. Is it as impossible Faith should be otherwise then an imperfect creature as for a man to be essentially a beast ? Sad Doctrine ! This is worse and worse : Faith ov●rcomes the world purifies the heart , justifies , the mystery of it is held in a pure conscience , yet not possible for it to be otherwise then an imperfect creature : Darkn●ss , Confusion , and Contradiction to Truth . Pr. The Grace of hope is imperfect , Christ is the hope of glory . Answ. These are one opposite to another , but Christ is perfect , who is the Grace and Life of all the Saints Graces . Pr. Christs Word was his audible Voice speaking his mind . Answ. Other whiles his Word is the Scriptures ( with thee ) as if the Scriptures and his audible Voice were both one , which if this be true , all that read them hear Christs audible Voice ; Is this Authentick Doctrine ? But Christs own words shall stand against it , for , Joh. 8.43 . Why do ye not understand my speech , even because ye cannot hear my word , and we know , that who hear the Son heareth the Father also : But this is a mistery hid from the Carnal minded who Idolatrously pervert the Scriptures . Pr. Though Christ and the Spirit be one , yet he is not Christs Word , for Christ is not his own word . Ans. They that hear Christs Word and receive it , receive of his own Virtue and Life in , and the words he spake unto his are Spirit and Life , thou hast here but cavilled , which thou mightest as well have done against several Scriptures and against Johns saying , In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God , and the Word was God , &c , Pr. I call the Scriptures the Word of God , and the Gospel the Word of Reconcilliation : The Word of God is distinguished from the Word of Reconcilliation . Answ. Other-whiles the Scripture is the Gospel ( and the Word of God with thee ) now they are distinct , the Word of God distinguished from the Word of Reconcilliation ; What confusion's here ? Is not the Word of Reconcilliation Gods ? God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself . Pr. The Gospel are a part of the Scriptures , and may be called one with them ; the Gospel is contained in the Scripture . Answ. The Gospel is the power of God to salvation to every one that believes , it was preached to Abraham , and was before the Scriptures , and is everlasting ; but thou hast spoken blindly here as before ; for , Is the power of God contained in the Scriptures ? Then all that have the Scriptures have that power in them ( or from them ) which is not true . Pr. Rom. 16.26 . The Preaching of Jesus Christ according to the Revelation of the Mistery which was kept secret since the world began , and by the Scriptures of the Gospel , according to the Commandment of the Everlasting God , made known to all Nations , for the obedience of Faith. Answ. But thou and such do not so preach Christ , nor are so commissionated to preach , at the Commandment of the Everlasting God , who deny Revelation , and his imediate Teaching now , and this contradicts much of thy dark stuff ; for here the Revelation of the Mistery is prefered before the Scriptures , and the Preaching according to them , was from that Revelation of the Mistery which the Apostles had in them , but , were the Scriptures that Revelation , and kept secret since the world began ? The Revelation of Christ was the Mistery , Christ within , the hope of glory , a mistery hid from Ages , &c. How was it by the Scriptures made known to all Nations for the obedience of Faith , if in many Nations there be nei●her the knowledg of Christ nor Scripture , according to thy former ? And of that Rom. 16.26 . which thou sayest is the Scriptures of the Gospel ; thou hast wronged the Scriptures herein ; for it is the Scriptures of the Prophets , &c. Pr. The Gospel and Mistery of Christ , is made manifest by the Scriptures of the Prophets preached to all Nations ; not by a Light within : If it were not in the Scriptures , How could it be manifest and made known by the Scriptures ? Answ. If not by the Light within , How by the Scripture without it ? Have all that hear Scripture read or preached , the knowledg of the Mistery of Christ without the Light within ? How then doth the Apostles speak of the Revelation as before ? Did nor he preach from the Light within , or Revelation of the Son in him ? Gal. 1.16 . How ignorant hast thou shewed thy self in this matter ? Again , the Mistery was not made manifest by the Scriptures alone , or barely , for both Revelation and Preaching is mentioned before ; and to tell of the Gospel and Mistery being in the Scriptures , is as much as to say , the power of God or Christ is in the Scriptures . Pr. Doth not Mark. chap. 1.2 . call what he wrot , the Gospel ? Where he saith , The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ , &c. Have you a forehead that cannot blush , that tells us that the Gospel is not Scripture ? What a feared conscience and shameless boldness have ye attained to ? Answ. It is not from any feared conscience , nor shameless boldness for me to assert the Gospel was before the Scripture ; and if Mark intended his Writing ( or what he writ ) to be the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ , then it follows , that the Gospel of Jesus Christ did not begin before Mark wrot that ReveRevlation , and then how doth he mention what was written in the Prophets , and tell of the Gospel of Jesus Christ ? And did not Jesus Christ shew forth his power and preach the Gospel , before that of Mark was writ ? But seeing thou hast taken the liberty , both to give thy meanings to Scriptures , and pretends to compare one Scripture with another , I may have liberty to tell the other Scriptures in this case , as in , Luke . 1.1 . he saith , Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things , which are most truely believed amongst us , and ver . 3. It seemed good unto me also , &c. And , Act. 1.1 . The former Treatise have I made O Theophilus : So what they writ , it was a Treatise or Declaration of things spoken , done , and believed , and much of which relates to the historical part of things and matters ; but if the written Declaration , Treatise of things , or Scripture without , be the Gospel , then hireling Priests may be silent , and let people read them , without spending their mony of them for their various meanings , traditional Interpretations , &c. for the Gospel ought not to be added to , nor another preached ; how-be-it there is a difference between true Preaching , proceeding from the immediate Spirit and Power of God ; which Paul was a Minister of , and the Scriptures or Writings outward , without the Spirit or Life ; for Paul was not a Minister of the Letter , but of the Spirit , and New Testament . And is not a living Ministry and Voice , especially where it lives by vertue of the Power of God , from whence it immediatly comes of more force and authority then the Letter , or Writings , which Scriptures signify ? Yea I do further affirm , that the same Words or D●clarations , as immediatly proceeding from the Power or Spirit of God , is of more force and effect then the same words would be as spoken onely from Scripture without . Deny it you Priests if you can , I can in the Name of the Lord , largely demonstrate it against you . Pr. The Scripture is Everlasting , Viz. what is contained in them . Answ. Confusion , Are they both one ? This is like much more . Pr. Is not the Gospel written by the Prophets , the Scriptures written by them . A●sw . Th●n Marks Writing was not the beginning of it , here 's contradiction and error : again the Apostle calls them the Scriptures of the Prophets , but speaks of the Gospel , Revelation and Mistery before , see , Rom. 16.25 , 26. where its very plain he makes a distinction between them and the Scripture . Pr. I deny any immediate Teaching by God. Answ. Then thou deniest God to Teach his people himself , when he dwells in them , wherein thou hast denied the truth of the Gospel and New Covenant . Pr. Christs Immediate Teaching will no way follow , for his opening the understanding to know the Scriptures ; for he doth by the same supernatural influence shine on the understanding , and Scriptures , Luk. 24.32 . Answ. Doth Christ by a Supernatural Influence shine on the understanding , and yet deniest thou his immediate Teaching , What a Labyrinth of Confusion and Distraction art thou fallen into ! And it appears , without this Supernatural Influence shining on the understanding , the Scriptures are not truely known nor opened . Pr. That Christ was first known himself , or he gave the knowledg of the Scriptures . The Apostle Paul , Rom. 16 , 26. denies your consequence . Answ. Have any a Supernatural knowledg or faith of the Scriptures , who have not a knowledg of Christ ? It seemes thou hast forgotten thy former words ; and the Apostle doth not deny my consequence ; for he had a knowledg of Christ before he Preached him , or writ Epistles concerning him , and his knowledg of the Son of God , was by his Revlation in him , besides the very Order , Tenour , and Matter of the Apostles words cited by thee , makes for me against thy self , see , Rom. 16.25 , 26. for they run thus , Now to him that is of power to stablish you , according to my Gospel , and the preaching of Jesus Christ , according to the Revelation of the mistery , which was kept secret since the world began : But now is made manifest , and by the Scriptures of the Prophets , according to the commandment of the everlasting God , made known to all nations for the obedience of faith , &c. this thou mayest peruse again to thy owne contradiction . Pr. The Cause indeed must be before the Effect , and yet not allwayes in order of time , but of nature , &c. If there be a Pryority , or Posteriority of Christ in the Soul , certainly the Scriptures hath it in the order of nature ; though the Lord in the communicating the knowledg of them , he is in his being first ; because , the Cause must be before the Effect ; so the giver of knowledg before the knowledge given . Answ. This being rightly considered , we find both contradiction and Ignorance in them ; for , Is the Cause before the Effect allway●s in order of nature , not of time , and yet , have the Scriptures the priority in the order of Nature ? Where learnedest thou this distinction ? not from the Scriptures nor from Christ ; Surely Christ hath the Priority in order of time , for he is in his being first , and if the Cause must be before the Effect , alwayes in order of nature ; then he hath it in both ; for he was the cause both of Scripture , and communicating the knowledg thereof , as thou confessest ; as also , that the Cause must be before the Effect , so the giver of knowledg before the knowledg given : And indeed , He was before all things , and by him all things consists , and in all things he is to have the preheminence , and priority : Who is the First and the Last , the Foundation , the Beginning and the End. But thy saying if there be a Priority , or Posteriority of Christ in the soul , certainly the Scriptures hath it in the order of nature ; in this thou comest off but very saintly and dubiously , and bringest the controversy to no result nor clearness , but art confused ; for if there be a Priority of Christ in the ●oul , then it is not of the Scriptures , it b●ing a Priority of Christ , who also doth by a Supernatural Influence shine on the understanding , &c. But in these matters much might be said , which time would fail thorowly to treat of . Pr. The Juditious will think you a pittifull object , who expose your self to shame and ludibrie , &c. Answ. Thy censure an● scorn herein I vallue not , it will fall upon thy own head , and theirs that have taken thy part herein . Pr. Without the Sanctifying knowledge of Christ , one may understand the Scriptures without error and ●angling . Answ. This is both erronious , and contradicts much that thou hast said before and after , which I need not very often repeat . Pr. Most men , have both preached the Truths in the Scriptures , and maintained them by Writing , who never had any Sanctifying Knowledg of Christ. Answ. This is like the former , and that [ most men have preach●d Truths in Scriptures ] is too large a word , and contrary to what thou saidst before of other Nations ; but what do these things tend to , but to set up unsanctified persons , to be Preachers or Priests : But too many there are of such already , for of them and their pollutions many are grown sick , and the earth will vomit them out , and all that seek to maintain them against Christ and his Kingdom , which he is setting up . Pr. For Judas , he preached the Truths , &c. The Scribes and Pharisees that sat in Moses seat preached Truths ; whereas Christ bad hear them , Mat. 23.2 , 3 , 4. Answ. But doth this prove that Judas had no sanctifying knowledg of Christ ? Herein hast thou erred ; for Judas had part of the Ministery , from which by transgression he fell , Act. 1.17 , 25. So transgression was the ca●●e of his fall from the Ministery , and that Scipture , Mat. 23.2 , 3 , 4. proves not that Christ bad them hear the Scribes and Pharisees , nor that they were true Ministers of Christ ; though wherein they sat in Moses seat , and read or preached his Precepts ( when in force ) they were to be obeyed , but Christ reprehends them in many places for corruptions got in amongst them , contrary to the Law , and for their vain Traditions and Prec●pts of men ; and therein they were not true Ministers of the Law , much less of Christ. Pr. Some preached Ch●ist out of envy and strife , and not out of love , &c. yet preached Christ and the Scriptures without errors , Phi. 1.15 , 16 , 17. Shall we say they had the Sanctifying Knowledg of Christ who had not love to him , who hath not good will to him ? Answ. Thou hast not proved that they preached Christ and the Scriptures without Errors who were in Envy and Strife ; for they were guilty of Error in the ground ( Viz. Envy and St●ife ) and where that is , ther 's confusion and every evil work ; in that Christ was preached and his Name published in those dayes , the Apostles rejoyced ; but not in the Envy and Error , of such as preached him out of Envy , who were not sanctified for such a work . Pr. Your reason that w●thout Christ we can do nothing , is to be meant in a Supernatural way . Answ. Is not that in a Supernatural way , which is without Error and Jangling , and good and acceptable to God ? Pr. If they believe them to b● true , do they not know them . Answ. No , All that believe them to be true , do not know them ; for thou hast granted an historical Faith of Scripture . Pr. He that hath heard , and learned of the Father , cometh to him , Joh. 6.44 . Answ. But all that have read and heard Scripture , have not heard nor learnd of the Father ; nor come to Christ. Pr. None can know the Truths of the Scriptures without the Sanctifying Knowledg of Christ. Answ. This is according to what I say , and overth●ows very much of thy matter according as hath been largely proved before . Pr. He will lead believers into all Truths , this is the meaning ; That is , he will keep them from a total and final defection from Truths necessary to Salvation ; and lead them into Truths , which are thus necessary , &c. Answ. This acknowledges in part to the truth of what I have said , also , to the Spirits leading into all Truth ; yea , into all Truths necessary to Salvation : And then the Spirit of Truth is sufficient for us to depend upon , for this leading and preservation . Pr , The Disciples , all of them ( except Judas ) had received the Sanctifying Spirit . Answ How hast thou excepted Judas from the Sanctifying Spirit , when he had part of the Ministery , which his transgression was the cause of his falling from ? Pr. They were all ignorant of the Resurrection , and mistook the nature of Christs Kingdom ; as if it had been of this world , Luk. 24.21 . Act. 1.6 . The Galatians who had received the Spirit , yet were they led into Error . Answ. If they that had received the Spirit might erre in these matters , much more they that had no Sanctifying Knowledg , which contradicts thy former ; of their preaching of Truths without Errors . Pr. He did not tell them ye erre not having the Spirit , but not knowing the Scriptures . Answ. The Scriptures they could not truely know without some Sanctifying Knowledg of Christ , as before confest , or of the power of God to salvation ; so their ignorance of the Scriptures in a Supernatural sence , was from their ignorance of the power of God , which unvails the heart to read and understand them . Pr. For what ye say we plead for sin , it doth more duely fall on the Doctrine that saith , believers may totally fall , as you say Peter by his denial did , and David likewise by , &c. Answ. Nay , To say there are believers that may fall from Grace ( who are not yet come to an established and grown state in the Truth and Power of God ) is no pleading for sin , as your Doctrine contending and disputing for sin in all , term of Life , especially , whiles we exhort all to watch and look dilligently to Grace received , and withal warn them , &c. that such a falling away may be prevented ; for it was no pleading for sin in the Apostles , to warn the Churches by the example of some that fell , or of such as made shipwrack of faith and a good conscience ; or of such as drew back to perdition , denied the Lord that bought them , and such whose latter end was worse then their beginning . But to charge us with saying , that Peter and David fell totally ; this is a slander and forgery against us , as there are many more in thy bundle . Pr. If our peace stood in our inherent Righteousness , &c. in our good works , &c. Answ. [ Inherent Righteousness ] are thy own words obtruded upon us , in thy own sence ( as imperfect ) and so in that sence not Gods nor Christs ; for in Gods Righteousness , received in Christ by faith , our peace stands , and of this , the true believers are pertakers in them , they being in that living Faith , the Righteousness whereof is not devided from it . Pr. Davids Peace stood not in the freedom from all sin , but in that God did pardon his sin ; and did not impute the same , Rom. 4.6 , 7 , 8. Secondly , If none ever had , or shall have Peace here on earth , but such as are in this Life free from all sin ; then you alone may boast of it , &c. Answ. He whose Transgression is forgiven , The man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity , in his spirit there is no guile Psa. 32.1 , 2. And David bid , Mark the perfect man , and behold the upright ; for the end of that man is peace . And blessed are the undefiled in the way ; they also do no iniquity , &c. And in this state stood Davids Peace , contrary to what thou hast Erroniously spoke of him here . Secondly , And what thou hast said of our being free from all sin , that we alone might boast of it ; this thou dost not believe of us , and therefore hast ironically Scoffed and Jeered , contrary to thy own thoughts and intentions : And in implying none on earth free from all sin , hast again erred , and art herein sufficiently confuted allr●ady , thou having herein implyed , none here ever born of God , none here to abide in Christ , or come to perfect Holyness ; or to be washed from all sin by the Blood of Christ : So thy Doctrine is contrary to the Apostles . Pr. For none either of the Prophets , Apostles , or Saints , that we find in Scriptures , ever were thus quallified for Peace . Answ. This seems to be a large and general charge against the Prophets and Apostles , who generally contrary to this Doctrine testifyed unto the Peace of God , which is perfect , which attends the Righteousness ( or heavenly Image ) of God , which is also perfect , and known in the new Covenant , whereby he takes away sin , and establisheth his people in Righteousness , and the Prophets could testify that the Lord was their Righteousness , who wrought all their works in them , and to the true Apostles , Christ was made wisdom , righteousness sanctification ; so thou & you have shewn your selves ignorant of the Scriptures , and of the Prophets and Apostles states and quallifications ; and what sin or sins they all had , which they ( or any of them ) were not freed from before death , is not yet proved by any of you , who are found in the work of the old accuser of the Brethren . Pr. Sin is remaining in part in all the faculties of Gods Children , &c. except ye had made appear , that Pauls Will , and Affections , and Mind , were perfectly against sin : Some stain and inclination to sin , by the contrary corruption still remained in some degrees in his Will , Mind , and Affections , &c. Answ. This is a sad accusation against all Gods Children againe , and what is this but a pleading for sin , and tending to strengthen the hands of evil doers ? What , all the faculties of Gods Children , having sin and corruption in them ? The Priests were wont to tell of a Regenerate part ; What part is it ? No faculty clean , sad newes ! Thus to accuse Pauls Will , Mind , and Affections , as having corruption remaining still in them ; whereas his Will was to the good , his Mind and Affections , were on things above ( when converted , and victory obtained ) and the vi●e affections and desires mortified , which they that are Christs have crucified ; and his saying , With my mind I serve the law of God , but with my members the law of sin ; related to the state of his Warfare , and shewes an opposition in his mind against serving sin : But thy Doctrine signifyes thus much , as if he had said ; with my Mind I serve sin , and with my Members I serve sin , yea ; with my Mind , Will , and Affections I serve sin , and the Law of God both ; this were a serving two Masters : And then where 's the contrar●e●y and opposition thou speakst of afterward . Pr. I said , There was Flesh and Spirit in him , so that neither the operations of the Flesh or Spirit were compleat and perfect , because of the opposition they have one to the other , the Flesh and Spirit are contrary one to another . Ans. Thy making the opposition between the Fl●sh and the Spirit , and their contrariety one to the other , thy reason to prove that neither the operations of the Flesh or the Spirit were compleat and perfect , it proves the quite contrary ; for the Spirits opposition to the Flesh , and its contrary operation , proves that the Spirits operation is pure and compleat against that which lusts against it ; and so against the fruits and works of the Flesh , which are ( absolu●ly ) also opposite to the fruits of the Spirit , yet they through the Spirit , came to mortify those deeds and works of the Flesh which were corrupt . Pr. Ye cannot do those things that ye would ; because he could not Will them perfectly . Ans. It s God that works in the believer , both to will and to do , and his Work is perfect ; and to whose Will , mans Will ought to be subject . Pr. If all the imperative faculties of the Will and Mind , and ( inferiour ) of the affections , be fully and strongly joyned for any action , the members of the body cannot but be obedientially , &c. Ans. Then such as have the mind of Christ , whose Wills and Minds are subject unto his , as theirs whom he calls his Brethren , and whose affections also are set upon things above , such have unity with Christ and in their faculties ( as thou callest them ) and therefore their members must needs be obedientially subject , as theirs who are sanctified throughout , in Body , Soul and Spirit . Pr. What part of him did sin dwell in , if neither in his Mind , Conscience Affections , &c. Ans. He said , In his flesh dwelt no good thing , but it was not all his life time of continuance . Pr. If you can find out any other faculty of the Soul , which can be a seat for sin to dwell in , then these three ; the Schooles will be beholding to you for your new Philosophy . Ans. We may therefore see what Schooles and Discipline you have , that would be beholding to us , to find out some other faculty of the Soul for sin to dwell in ; but me-thinks thou shouldst intend better then thy words import , and have said : You would be bebeholding to us , to shew you another , which is no seat for sin , and that you should not seek for more room for sin , for it hath as much room amongst you as you can afford it , in all the facultys , both superior and inferior , both in the Wills , Minds and Affections : But so it had not in the Children of the Light. Pr. The pure Protestant Religion , which is held out from Scriptures . Answ. Is that your pure Protestant Religion , that pleads for sin in all the facultyes of the Soul ? An impure Religion and Doctrine of the Ministers of sin , pure Religion where it is , there 's a keeping unspotted of the world . Pr. There is a Righteousness of Christs Sufferings and Merit imputed , &c. which begets Peace , which may consist with sin in a believer , though thereby no Condemnation to him . Answ. Christs Righteousness is known to be pure and perfect , and not to consist with sin , for they are inconsistant , and the believer that 's come to a fellowship of Christs sufferings , and a conformity to his death , to know his Righteous Will by faith imputed ; he walks after the spirit , not after the flesh , and to such there 's no condemnation , Rom. 1.8 . Pr. Cleanse thou me from my secret sins . Answ. Then let not secret sin remain in me all my Life time , let not sin and corruption remain in all the faculties of my Soul so long as I live , Pr. There is a Righteousness which is the same with Sanctification which is not perfect and compleat , therefore no man by this inherent Righteousness is Justified . Answ. What Righteousness ( and whose ) is it , which is the same with Sanctification , which is not perfect ? Is it Christs yea or nay ? And , Is Sanctification imperfect in this Life ? And , Is this that thou callest inherent Righteousness ? In this thou hast but acted the part of Sathans m●ssengers , as hore-tofore , and contradicted the Apostles Doctrine , who preached to present men perfect in Christ , and exhorted to purge themselves , from all filthiness both of flesh and spirit ( and so ) to a perfecting of holiness in the fear of God : And , Was not Christ made unto them , Righteousness , Sanctification , and Redemption ? And is he devided or imperfect in what he is to the Saints ? What grose and fa●se stuff hast thou implyed and vented ? And it was they that were washed and sanctified ; that were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus , and by the spirit of our God. See , 1 Cor. 6.11 . Pr. You do not admit of this Doctrine . Your new Light you pretend , is nothing but old damnable Popery . Ans. Our new Light ( as thou callest it ) is the Light of Christ , the same the Apostles preached and bears witness to their Doctrine against thine and the Priests who oppose it : And its Blasphemous and Damnable in thee , to deem this our Light , nothing but old damnable Popery ; it will appear that thou art nearer Popery then we , in thy contending for sin term of Life , but onely thou tellest us not of a Purgatory . Pr , Paul had victory begun but not compleated , except from the the Condemning Power of Sin , but the Reigning Power and Defiling , was not subdued totally , &c. Ans. Confusion : And contrary to Pauls Doctrine and state , to tell of victory , and yet the Reigning Power and Defiling not subdued totally ; as much as to say , his Enemy was conquered and yet Reigned still ; whereas he said , He had fought the good fight of faith , and had kept the faith ; he was more then a conquerer through Christ that loved him . And they to whom there was no condemnation were in Christ , and walked not after the flesh , but after the spirit . And was there not such as were compleat in Christ to whom Paul wrote ; and dost not believe that he had attained to as high a growth as any of them to whom he writ or preached ; consider it . Pr. In the present time , I am sold under sin , That good that I would do , I do not ; if he had spoken to their capacity as weak , he would have told them , he had been under such a condition , but he was delivered from it : When Paul speaks of a condition wherein he was , he does not say , I am , &c. Ans. Paul did speak unto the Romans after the manner of men because of the infirmity of their flesh , Rom. 6. He did also signify the several states which he had passed thorow , as how it was with him before the Law came , and how when it came , and his warfare , as also his deliverance ; so that I say again and still affirm , that Paul could not be in all those states he mentions , or represents to the Romans at one and the same time ( when he so writ , as in the present time ) as thou very blindly hast asserted , argued from hence , and caviled against the truth of what I said , and the most stress of what thou sayest for reason , or proof against me , is as much as a Child might say that has learned his Accidence , Viz. that the present Tense is not the preterperfect Tense ; whereas if it must be taken for granted from thy feeble reason , that Paul was in all those states at one and the same time , then he was both carnal sold under sin and yet spiritual , a faithful Apostle that could preach in the fullness of the Gospel ; as if carnal sold under sin , and spiritual , made free from the Law of sin and death , by the Law of the Spirit of Life were both one , but , to be carnal sold under sin was miserable bondage , not consistent with his Saintship and Spirituallity : And when he said , With me to will is present , but how to perform that which is good , I know not ; if that was his present condition , then ( as thou arguest ) because spoke as in the present Tense ; Then what did Paul at that time in writing that Epistle ? Did he perform that which is good , yea or nay ? If he did , Then knew he what he did ? Or , did he do he knew not what in it ? Surely thy Doctrine doth strangly misrepresent and wrong Paul , that Servant of Christ , and the Lords-Freeman , who knew the Mysteries of Christ , though sometimes , he became as weak to the weak , &c. But if it should be objected , as some vainly have done , that there was an unregenerate part in Paul , of which he speaks in those cases ; then this would make much of his Epistles to proced from an unregenerate or carnal part , which were gross and contrary to their own Doctrine . And to that saying , if he had spoke to them as weak ; he would have told them he had bin under such a state , but he was delivered from it ; to the very same purpose he did speak to them , Rom. 7.5 . For when we were in the flesh , the motions of the sins which were by the Law did work in our members , to bring forth fruit unto death ; but now we are delivered from the law , that being dead wherein we were held , that we should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter . So that its plain , he told them both of his captivity and of his deliverance , speaking in the fore-part of the chapter plainly in several things , with relation to what he was in the flesh in the time past , and also how he was delivered ; and so , both the body of sin and death , and the law of sin , he came to be delivered from by the law of the spirit of life in Christ ; through whom also he was more then a Conqueror . Pr. How bold are you , charging the present time for the by-past , for which you have neither passage in that , nor any other Scriptures , the sence of the words being all along in the present time , &c. Answ. This is but like the former , from ignorance both of the Scriptures and the Apostles states , concluding them in all those sta●es wherein they personated themselves , either to represent what they had gone thorow , or the condition of others to whom they wrot or spoke ; but from this mans Argument , where Paul said , Christ came into the world to save sinners of whom [ I am chiefest ] and the Apostle James ; with the same tongue bless we God , curse we men , these things ought not to be ; this being spoken in the present time when they writ ; from this mans Argument , Paul was then the chiefest or greatest of sinners ; How was he then counted faithful and put into the Ministery ? Or was he the greatest or chiefest of sinners when faithful ? Then who are the least of sinners if the faithful , such as are saved by Christ be the chief ; And was the Apostle James one that did curse men , when he exhorted against it , or what he said , had relation to them ( or some of them ) to whom he writ ? And Pauls being the chiefest of sinners , to his being injurious and a persecutor before converted , or if the chiefest of sinners after conversion , and counted faithful ; What was he before conversion ? Or if it was before ; Then did he not amend and become better when he came to be converted , to receive Grace and Apostleship ? Pr. As for that by gone state before he was begotten ; Was he groaning under a body of death ? Was he giving thanks for victory through Jesus Christ ? Yet all these are knit together . Secondly , If ye say it was a state after he was begotten of God , ye grant all that we affirm ; that a Believer ever after he is begotten of God , is not free from Sin. Answ. This still depends on thy former errors and absurdities against Paul , for groaning under a body of death for deliverance or victory , and giving thanks for victory through Jesus Christ , are two differing states , and not knit together as if they were one and the same condition ; How blindly and sottishly hast thou reasoned herein ? Secondly , If we say it was a state after he was begotten , Viz. that he was groaning for deliverance , we do not grant therefore that a Believer ever after is not free from Sin , as falsly and absurdly thou infe●rest upon us ; as if a Believer had no growth nor encrease in faith and victory after begotten of God , which if it be thy belief , according as thy words imply , it is not ours ; for we know and believe a growing from strength to strength , and a revelation of Gods Righteousness from Faith to Faith in the true Beleivers , and that by Faith victory is obtained by degrees , with such as are begotten and born of God , whom the wicked one cannot touch ; and through Faith in the Power of God , Everlasting Salvation comes to be attained to by them ; such as keep the Faith , and hold fast the profession of it without wavering . Pr. They do not so perfectly mortify , as that there are no lusts in them ; otherwise it were to no purpose for Peter to exhort the believing Hebrews to abstain from their lusts . Answ. Nay , Herein thou hast erred and perverted , and wronged Peters end and intention , which is clearly against such as thou art , who plead for continuance of sin and lusts in them , which if they alwayes be to continue here , and cannot be abstained from as thou intimatest , then to what purpose was it for Peter to exhort them to abstain from them , especially if he had been of thy faith that they could not , or had not power to abstain from lust , &c. But herein thou hast sufficiently discovered whose servant thou art . Pr. When they are Believers and begotten , they are so freed that the evil one cannot touch them . Answ. Much less lead them into Sin , or keeps up the reigning power of it in them so long as they live : This contradicts all thy corrupt Pleas and Arguments for Sin. Pr. They do not fulfil its Lusts , as to continue in Sin wilfully and deliberately without repentance ; yet they are not freed from Sin wholly . Answ. Yes wholly , when the wicked one hath not power to touch them . But thy saying they do not fulfil its Lusts , as to continue in Sin wilfully without repentance ; now may not this be taken that they do continue in Sin , Lusts , but not wilfully without repentance ; But do they Sin wilfully with repentance ? Hast thou cleared Gods Children herein ? Whereas , such as walk after the spirit , shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh ; but are in that which mortifyes the vile affections and desires , and subjects the whole man to the will of God , Viz. to Righteousness and Holyness . Pr. In many things we offend all . Answ. But not in Christ the one thing ; for , he that abides in him sinneth not . Pr. To be unblamable ; Is that Grace ? Is universal in all parts of the renewed man , though not absolute , &c. to be unblameable and unreproveable , may stand with Sins of infirmity . Answ. To be unblameable , is to Live as the Grace teacheth ; namely , To deny ungodliness and worldly lusts , and to live godly and soberly in this present world : For Sin and Ungodliness is blameable and reproveable wherever it is , it being contrary to the Grace and its teaching , which is absolute as well as universal in the renewed man , and is not consistent with Sin , nor imperfect as you Priests of Scotland have rendered Grace , Faith , &c. as they among you formerly , that cursed every one that saith , Faith is without Sin , and would have all the people to say Amen to it ; wherein your blind zeal out-runs your understandings , and made you discover your folly and madness , to set people on cursing ; yea , to curse such as held the Truth , contrary to that Doctrine , bless and curse not . Pr. In the Book of Common Prayer , there is a promise , To forsake the Devil and all his Works , the vain Pomp and Glory of the world , and Sinful Lusts of the flesh , and be led by Gods Spirit to keep his Commandments : Many of those who promise may do this , and keep it in the sence the Scripture holds , that is ; that they shall disallow , purpose and endeavour against those ills . Answ. So , Here thou hast justified these promises , and many of those who promise as keeping it , that is ( sayest thou ) they shall disallow , purpose and endeavour against those ills , as if that purpose were a forsaking the Devil and all his Works , &c. the Sinful Lusts of the flesh , a keeping Gods Commandments , &c. when as thou hast denyed that any may attaine to such a state , but they must purpose and endeavour after it ; when as the promise is absolute , to forsake all sin , Viz. all the Works of the Devil , and to walk in the Commandments of God all their life . What a medly hast thou made here , like the time-serving Priests ; that vindicate the Common prayer and Episcopacy , after they have denyed it , and many of them covenanted against it : We thought that the Priests and Kirk of Scotland , had been more zealous and sincere in their way against the Episcopal Traditions , then thou hast here appeared : Will the rest of thy Brethren of the Kirk of Scotland own thee in this matter ? Or art thou their mouth ; that thou takest upon thee , to be such a contender for the pure Protestant Religion ( as thou callest it ? ) But is that any part of your Religion to tell of God-fathers and God-mothers ? And to cause t●em to promise and vow in the Infants name , and for the I●fa●t ( as its surety ) to forsake the Devil and all his Wor●s , &c. all ●he Sinful Lusts and desires of the flesh , and to keep G●ds holy Will and Commandments , when you do not believe it possible so to do in this Life . Pr. As many who are commended for keeping his Commands , their Sins and Failings are not-with-standing recorded . Answ. Sins and Failings are not consistent with keeping Gods Commandments , Sin being a transgression of the Law ; which , when transgressed and failed of keeping , it is not kept then , nor the blameless state stood in . Pr. You with gross subtilty bear out this sence ; That he who at his death is made holy , is made holy somtimes before his death . Ans. He is sometime a dying before dead , if at their death , be upon their death or dying ( as thou sayest ) yea , some are many houres , having the symptomes and pangs of death upon them , before they are dead , and in this sence I supposed thou intendest , by saying at their death they are freed , &c. that it was upon their dying , when the throws or pangs of death are upon them ; or , when we commonly say a person is a dying , when he breathes very weakly , faintly , and sometimes with short breathings , a little before breath is quite gone , and then there must needs be a little space in this Life , before the person is quite dead . Pr. You might as well infer , if one should say , that at his death his Soul aod Body are separate ; that he said , they are separate sometime before his death ; at his death is meant immediatly upon his dying . Ans. A false inference put upon my words , which doth not at all follow ; for when the Soul and Body are separate , or the Soul is gone out of the Body , this is after death , now upon dying is not after death ; for when the Body is without the Spirit it is dead ; so , if thou wilt have it , that when the Soul and Body are separate , the Beleiver is then free from sin ; t is not in this Life , and then ; Where 's the Popes Purgatory ? And who is now guilty of damnable Popery ? Is this your pure Protestant Religion ? Pr. I never found but that they ( Viz. our Brethren ) said , Beleivers Souls either at their death ( which is immediately upon their death ) or after death , are made perfectly holy and received into glory . Answ. Upon dying , and after death are two things , so it appears still you are devided somewhat in this point ; s●me of you saying , upon their dying , Beleivers are made perfectly holy , others say , after death ; however by this we may observe that your Doctrine tends to make people serve the Devil ( by living in sin ) so long as they have any time and str●ngth , to do any service for him ; that is , till they can serve him no longer . Pr. They may mean and understand , that the perfect holiness of both Soul and Body is not to be till the Resurrestion ; which is nothing differing from that which I say ; I do not say that the Body in the grave is capable of holiness till it be raised . Answ. If this doth nothing differ from what thou sayest , it s very strange , didest not say a little before [ upon his dying ? ] What 's done upon his dying ? Is he made wholy free from Sin yea or nay ? If thou meanest onely the Soul , that that 's onely freed from Sin at death or upon dying , and not the Body till it be raised ( as thou sayest ) Then what becomes of the Sins and impurity of the Body in the mean time , or the defilments and pollutions thereof ? Doth it dye with the Body ( seeing the Soul is pure when it ascends to God ? ) Or if the Body be not capable of Sin in the grave ; Then where is the being of unholiness and corruption to be done away , so long after death as is imagined ? Or to say that perfect holyness of both Soul and Body , is not till the Resurrection ; ( how long after death you know not ) Doth not this make for the Papists imagination of a Purgatory ? For if the being throughly purged from all unholiness be not till after death , it must be some where ; but this your Doctrine is cont●ary to the Apostles , who said ; How can we that are dead unto sin , live any longer therein ? And being made free from sin , &c. He hath washed us from our sins in his own blood , &c. Pr. From Pro. 24 ▪ 16 It cannot be so properly said , The godly fall seven times into trouble and ri●e again . Answ. Yes , The godly falls into many troubles and afflictions ; but God delivereth them , out of them all . And he is with them in six troubles , and in seven he will not forsake them . And its plain from that of Pro. 24.15 , 16. that the just mans falling sev●n times and rising again , is of another nature then the wickeds falling into mischief ; for in verse . 15 , 16. its said , Lay not wait ( O wicked man ) against the dwelling of the righteous : spoyl not his resting place : For a just man falleth seven times and riseth up again : but the wicked fall into mischief . It is not said ( as many of you have wronged the Scripture ) that the Righteous man sins seven times a day ; yea , some of the Priests and Professors , have not onely said so , but have also said ; that the most Righteous man that is ( or ever was ) sins seven times a day , which is a deceit and corruption put upon Scripture . Pr. As for my saying a day , it was a mistake of the citation of the place , though it s not contrary to sence ; for Christ saith to Peter that he should forgive his Brother seventy times seven times , which implyeth that a Brother may offend in the day time . A. If he who is a Brother may offend in the day time ; Doth it therefore follow that all the godly or brethren do fall into sin seven times a day ? And wilt thou ( to serve thy perverse and corrupt end ) say , in that a Brother may offend seventy times seven , therefore he Sinneth seven times every day all his time ? Surely thy implicite consequence , is a mistake and error ( and thou hast wronged the Scriptures ) as well as thy citation of the place mentioned . But we see thou wilt stand by the Devils Cause , though thou comest never so feebly off ; yea , and fall with it . Pr. I grant that the Child of God cannot Sin totally and finally and whoso doth it , is of the Devil . Answ. Herein again thou hast wrested and added to the Scripture , as often before , Totally and Finally are thy own words , and not the words of John , who affirmed , That he that 's born of God sinneth not ; neither can he : To say he that commits Sin Totally and Finally is of the Devil ; Is this all the distinction of the Devils Servants and Children , from the Children of God ? How miserably hast thou pleaded Gods Childrens cause ? Surely they have no Reason to be beholding to th●e , but may justly exclude thee for wronging of them . Pr. In the sence ye imply it , that he who Sinneth at all , or in whom their 's any defect ; thus none living then ever knew or saw him : Those who are commended for knowing him , Sinned . Secondly , Job cursed his day , David , what sad falls he had is known , Jeremiah , the Apostles ; all of them . Answ. That [ he ] that Sinneth and is of the Devil , and that [ he ] that Sinneth not who is of God are two contrary births ( and that which is born of the spirit is spirit , as that which is born of the flesh is flesh ) which if thou knewest the difference of , and were seperated from the evil and joyned to the good , thou wouldest not go about to confound them , nor grosly to pervert the Scriptures and to accuse Gods Birth , or Child as thou hast done . Secondly , And why doest thou not tell us of their deliverances as well as their falls , and of their conquest which ( by d●grees ) they obtained in their Life time ? But this would make against thee and thy ill cause for Sin and Sathan , whose work thou art in . Pr , You say a Believer is free from all Sin , which we suppose you meant of a Believer from the very instant that he begins to be a Believer ; as ye said , that the Spirit cannot be united unto Sin. Answ. Nay , It is not our Principle that a Believer , from the very instant that he begins to be a Believer , is free from all Sin ; thy supposition herein and much of thy matter grounded upon it is false , thou hast gone about to overthrow our Principles , when thou art yet to learn what we hold in this matter : For a man is a Believer whilst in the faith he is war●ing against Sin , and waiting to obtaine victory over it , and to come into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God : The victory is not obtained at the very first beginning of Gods work in a Soul , but by degrees through Faith , which purifies the hearts of them that believe , and receive power in the Light of Christ and Spirit of Life , to become the Children of God and of the Light , which hath no unity with Sin ; nor can have with persons , but as they forsake Sin and come out of it . Pr. As you contradict your self , so you do the Truth ; For can Sin be in any man , and the actions flowing , and the man not be Sinful ? If Sin be in a man , doth it not defile him ? Answ. If the actions of Sin be flowing from a man he is sinful , but there is a time when the Beleiver warreth against Sin , and can say as Paul did , It s not I that Sins ; but Sin that dwelleth in me . And there 's a time wherein there be Sins that do easily beset ; and when Sin is presented in the Temptation , when it is not yeilded unto but withstood , and by degrees overcome by Faith , in the power of Christ : But this is hid from all blind contenders for Sin. Pr. Neither doth that passage which ye abuse ( it s not I but Sin that dwelleth in me ) imply any thing of that kind that he doth not Sin. Answ. What is this less then to say , Paul said not true , when he said , It s not I that sin but sin that dwelleth in me ? But to distinguish between the two S●eds and two Births , that which did not Sin , and that which did Sin , it appeares thou knowest not , but art very ignorant , and blindly cavillest in many things . Pr. God judgeth of his Children that are thus devided , according to the better and sounder part , as is that of the Spirit which is most prevailing with them , and unto which they do adhere ; and not according to the Flesh which they renounce , and unto which they resist ; and which by little and little they overcome . A The Spirit most prevailing in Gods Children , they adhere to it , and resist and renounce the Flesh , and yet the Flesh have the better ; What Doctrine is this , and what contradiction ? And how doth this oppose the Spirits sufficiency , and the end of their adhereing to it ; which is , that they may be thorowly sanctified both in Body , Soul , and Spirit . Pr. Indeed you make your self a Patron of Sin , in saying , that the Children of God when they come short of the good they would , and when they do the evil they would not , they do not Sin : Now whether you , or th●se you rail against , deserve to be accused as defenders of Sin : You say that a Believer , when he doth the evil he would not , he Sinneth not : No more vile defence of Sin imaginable , then to say , that Peters denyal of Christ with a curse , was no Sin ; and Davids adultery : Whether he that acknowledgeth Sin is in the godly , or he that sayeth the foulest Sins are not Sins ; because forsooth they may be warring against them ? Answ. Herein hast thou abused me , and sought to render me odious for that which is none of my saying , touching the Children of God ; neither did I ever say , that doing evil is not Sin , nor yet grant thy universal Charge against Gods Children , of coming short of good and doing evil ; nor that all that Paul writes of himself in that kind ; Was then his present condition : Herein hast thou but begged the question , and belied me in several things grounded upon thy misrepresenting our Principles before ; and so the Patron and vile defender of Sin thou art , and not I ; who to defend it , hast in general accused all God Children with Sin term of Life . Neither did I ever say , Peters denial of Christ , and Davids adultery , are no Sins ; as here I am belied and slandered , by one in impudency , and the spirit of lyes : And as for Peter and David ; Where ever did they commit those Sins after they had repented of them ? Surely this instance is no proof that Gods Children must have Sin ( or dare Sin ) all th●ir life time : How-be-it Paul was no defender of Sin in saying , It s not I that Sin , but Sin that dwelleth in me [ by all which Sin is still acknowledged to be Sin ] and when they knew the warring against Sin , and the travel in order to obtain victory , and coming into the state of the perfect Birth ( that 's brought forth in the Image of God ) they knew the difference between the two Seeds in them , and a going on in the work of faith , till the old man with his deeds were put off , and the new man put on . Pr. Neither that of 1 John. 2. I write unto you that you may not sin , prove that they were free of Sin so as they did not Sin ; for then why doth he subjoyn ( but if we sin , we have an advocate with the Father ) thus you have wickedly separated what God hath joyned , Christ was given for an advocate for the Sins of those whom John calleth little Children , and his own , which therefore were to be . An. Johns writing unto them not to Sin , surely was contrary to thy pleading for Sin , for the very tenour of thy doctrine is contrary to his in this case . And what is it God hath joyned that ( thou sayest ) we have wickedly s●parated ? Is it Believers and Sin , or the advocate and Sin ? This were blasphemous to suppose or assert ; how grosly hast thou shewed thy selfe in this matter : And surely thou hast drawn but a bad consequence from Johns saying , If any man sin we have an advocate , that therefore Johns and the little Childrens Sins were to be , or that the Devils work in part , remaines un-subdued in the Children of God ; for John doth not say little Children you have an advocate , and therefore your Sins are to be , or the Devils work must remain in you unsubdued all your life time , but I write unto you that you sin not , and if any man sin ( which is not every man is to Sin ) we have an advocate with the Father ; this is he that was to call and help them out of Sin , and whose blood did cleanse from all Sin , for John proposed a way and a remedy for them , to bring them out of all sin , but thou hast proposed a way tending to keep all people in Sin all their days , who thus hast contended for the Devils work , made such a sad consequence both of Johns words , and of Christs being an advocate , that therefore Sins are to be . A monstrous inference . Pr. That the Devils work in part remains un-subdued in the Children of God , appears by that Paul saith to the Romans , The God of peace shall tread down Satan under your feet shortly , Rom. 16.20 . An. That the God of peace should tread down Satan under their feet shortly , is a proof against thy s●lf , and contradicts thy Doctrine for the Devils work remaining in the Child of God ; for where Satan is troden down und●r foot , dominion is obtained over him and his work . Pr. We have peace , our peace stands in our justification , yet there are remains of Sin within us which we are to mourn for . An. The Saints peace stands in Righteousness , which is not consistent with Sin , which is the cause of mourning where it is not done away ; but thou hast confounded the state of peace , and the state of mourning , like one ignorant both of true peace , and of the effect of true sorrow and mourning . Pr. We are all compassed about with infirmities and subject to passions as was Elias , who had the Spirit of God and peace to , and yet had matter of groaning even in those passions . An. The Apostles instance of Elias being subject to like passions , was in the case of praying for the sick , to shew how prevailing the effectual fervent prayer of a Righteous man is , Jam. 5.15 , 16. which proves quite against thee , whilst thou accountest passions in the general as being Sins , for passions are sufferings which may be of divers sorts , as that of sickness and others ; as also it is not true that Elias was subject to that the Priests are , whilest thou takest passions for Sins , neither was he so passionate in that kind as to pl●ad and contend for Sin as you do : More-over where it s said , that Paul and Barnabas said unto them ( that would have done sacrifice to them ) We are men of like passions with you , Act. 14. they could not intend by passions , that they were men of like Sins and Transgressions with those heathens , as being such Idolaters , or subject to cry up and worship men as Gods , or to sacrifice unto them as they did to Paul and Barnabas , whom they termed Mercurius and Jupiter ; so in this thy error is sufficiently detected , who upon such a false ground ( rath●r then be silent ) hast pl●aded for the work of the Devil . Pr. Here is another Arminian and Popish error , that Believers fall away from Grace totally . An. Thou mightest as well have charged the Apostles with an Arminian and Popish error , who held the same that we 〈◊〉 touching , falling away from Grace , which many have been 〈…〉 ( though not all Believers ) and therefore both Peter and Paul and others , did warn them in their Epistles to the same purpose as we do , and both Paul to the Corinthians , and Peter in his second Epistle , Chap. 2. as also that Epistle to the Hebrews , do largely prove our Doctrine in this matter . Pr. Evil Works come not from Faith in the Believer . An. If evil Works come not from Faith , then Peter and David stood not in the Faith wh●n they fell ; and this proves what I said of them , which thou hast reviled me for . Pr. Christ said to Peter , when thou art converted , where you say , that Peter was never converted before his repentance , but onely convinced , which contradicts that you said he erred from the Faith : It s against Christs prayer , saying , I have prayed for thee that thy faith may not fail : if he had not Faith when Christ spake these words to him , When thou art converted strengthen thy Brethren ; onely do signify when he should be fully recovered . An. Here thou fightest with thy own shadow , for it doth not follow that Peter had no Faith , when he was convinced before fully converted , and the words , When thou art converted strengthen thy Brethren , are Christs own words to Peter , about which thou hast thus wrangled against me , which plain enough imply that there was somthing which was not of Faith , that Peter was to be converted from ; and Faith is given in measure in the convinc●ment in order to a through conversion , as also thou grants that these words , When thou art converted , do signify when he should be fully recovered from the sad breach his fall made on his Soul ; what a full recovery and yet the Devils work remaining all his time ; what confusion's this ? And is the full recovery called conversion as thou sayst ? Then you that contend for sins remaining all your Life time , remain all your time in the unconverted state ; and that the Desciples had som Faith b●fore they we●e thus fully converted , is the thing which I have confessed , which still makes for what I say ; that there is a possibility of falling from the Faith , before this work of conversion is fully wrought , and therefore the more need of being watchful and exercising that little Faith recieved ; so that I do not maintain Satans work , or say that he overthrew Peters Faith ●s falsly I am accused . Pr. It is not sad Doctrine ( as you say ) but comfortable , that a Believer may fall , as David and Peter , whereas he doth not fall wholly away . An. Is this Doctrine counted Authentick or Orthodox in the Kirk of Scotland , that it is not sad Doctrine but comfortable , that a Believer may fall , as David and Peter did ? And do you propose this to your Auditors as matter of comfort ? Surely if you do , you are misserable comforters ; for to be comforted with telling them they may fall , as David and Peter did , is to be comforted with denying Christ , and commiting adultery , as it may be probable , too to many of your Kirk take comfort in such things ; which whilst they do , your Stool of Repentance will not obsolve them , nor prove them to be in the Faith , how-be-it a few line● before , in contradiction to thy self , thou confessest that Peters fall did weaken his Graces and cloud his comforts very much , and surely it was matter of Sorrow , and bitter Lamentation to him , as also was Davids fall to him ; for which he suffered the Terrors of the Lord , and great Sorrow and Tribulation , as at large in his complaints and prayers may be proved . Pr. What a brave Patron of your Cause are you , when in defence of this , that a Believer may not Sin ; ye say he may fall wholly away from Grace . An. Here thou hast grosly perverted and wronged my words , for that some Believers may fall , is not my defence to prove that they may be fully restored and perfected , so as not to sin ; but that there is a state in which t is possible for some to fall away from G●ace , wh●ch is before they come to that perfection and safety that answers the end of their Faith and Praying , &c. This cuts off much of thy cavilling frothy false accusation . Pr. Ye ask if I can instance in Peter or David any thing ( Viz. Sin ) before their death ( which they were not freed from before their decease ) Answ. Though I could not instance gross falls of such a foul nature , yet they have their failings ; Esiah an old Prophet , subject to like passions that we are ; Peter walked not with a streight foot , David saith , if thou enter into Judgement , &c. An. Here thou hast gone about to accuse David , and Elias , and Peter with failings till their death , but in proving thy charge com●s very faintly off , for that of passions is answered before ; and what thou sayest of Peters not walking with a streight foot ; Was that till death ? Or did he so walk all his Life time ? Surely thou hast herein greatly wronged Peter and the rest of them , and though there be a time and a state wherein , if God enter into Judgment who can be justified , yet there is a state wherein his people are Redeemed through Judgment , and purged , by the spirit of judgement and burning . Pr. You maintain that a Believer from the first Sinneth not . An. Thy accusing of me with maintaining that a Believer is freed from all Sin , from the first time he is a Believer , is a falshood and an abuse put upon me ; for he is a Believer before he obtain victory , and is taught to believe in the Light , that he may be a Child of the Light , and so become born of God. Pr. You do symbolize with the Papists , saying Believers are freed from all Sin ; which yet they do not hold of all Believers , but of some of their Perfectionaries . Ye say ye do not hold Merit or Purgatory . An. Nay , Thou hast symbolized with the Papists , who hast pleaded for sin till death , and said also that perfect holiness both of Soul and Body , is not to be till the Resurrection , when that shall be thou knowest not , which ( as before was answered thee ) makes for their imagination of a Purgatory ; but if the Papists hold that some Believers are free from all Sin and perfected in this Life , therein they outstrip thee and the Priests , who would exclude all Believers from perfection and freedom in this Life . Pr. Ye say that all men have a like Light and Grace , some do attain to salvation , others not , which proceedeth not from any difference of Grace given by God , but that others have better improven the Light given to all , which improvement must indeed come from free will. Ye hold Merit . You are not so ingenious as Papists . An. Concerning Grace being given alike to all , if thou intendest in measure or quantity , thou hast vainly made repetitions without ground against us ; but as for the improvement of the Grace it comes not from free will , as falsly thou hast said , but from the capacity the creature is put into by the Grace it self ; for mans will is not made free of it selfe , but by the Grace or Power of God , which worketh in man to will and to do : But and if somes not attaining of salvation , is because it s either from a difference of the Grace given by God , or for want of sufficient Grace given by him ; according to thy Doctrine , then this charges the fault upon God as being partial , and the occasion of some mens destruction , contrary to that saying of the Prophet , He willeth not the death of a sinner , but rather his return , &c. Pr. That the Light that Christ enlighteneth all men with , is sufficient for the knowledg of the mysteries of the Kingdom , is contrary to Scriptures . An. Nay , It is not contra●y to the Scriptures , that the Light of Christ in men , is sufficient for the knowledg of mysteries of the Kingdom savingly , in that t is sufficient for believing , leading out of darkness and to receive the Light of Life . And they from whom God hath hid those mysteries , are such as disobey the Light , and shut their eyes against it , as Christ said , Their eyes have they closed , &c. least they should see , and be converted and I should heal them . All which doth evidence the defect and fault not to be in the Light of Christ , but in them that disobey it . Pr. The natural man cannot know the things that are of God , he hath no sufficient Light to know that which he cannot know . An. That therefore he hath no sufficient Light , is no true consequence ; for then by this , none have Light sufficient whilst in the natural state , which all are in before they are made spiritual ; thy consequence had onely held to prove the Light insufficient , if thou couldest have proved that they that are in the fallen and natural state cannot be changed , nor restored into a spiritual state [ but this were gross to affirm ] for as man is natural he cannot know the things of the Spirit , bu● the spiritual man doth . Pr. The Jewes that had the outward meanes shut their eyes against it , neither doth it mean of the Light of Christ within , except onely the Light of nature . An. The Jews had not onely an outward meanes , but also an inward Light , the good Spirit of God given to them though they Rebelled , and the Word nigh them , in their hea●ts , &c. which was not a Light of nature ; Herein thou hast greatly erred ; And would Christ have reproved any for shutting their eyes against that which is natural and insufficient , and made that the cause of their not being converted and healed ? See Mat. 13 15. Thine and the Priests darkness and ignorance in this matter ; How great is it ! Pr. The Kingdom of God being Righteousness , Peace , Joy in the Holy Ghost , no man that hath not the Sanctifying Spirit , hath it or had it within him ; no peace nor joy in the wicked . An. The Kingdom of heaven was in the Pharisees or Jews as Christ said , The kingdom of heaven is within you , Luk. 17.21 . when they were unsanctifyed ▪ though they were not come into it , nor to attain to the righteousness and peace of it , for that 's attained to by such as are translated out of darkness into the Light , for all that have a true Light and Seed in them are not in it . Pr. The Light of the Scriptures is a Light shining in a dark place , 2 Pet. 1. An. The Light that Peter directed them to , was the more sure Word of prophecy , 2 Pet. 1. And was that the Scriptures of the Prophets ? Or did that Light come from them ( or from Christ ? ) If so ; then , Why were they not directed to the Scriptures of the Apostles ? Or , Were the Scriptures of the Prophets more sure then the Apostles writings ? Surely the Light which leads to the day star arising in the heart , thou art exceeding ignorant of , and thy darkness may be felt . Pr. How gross Pelagionisme is that , the same Light which was Sanctifying to others that obeyed , was Condemning to Judas and Cain : Is Gods revealing of those things and hiding of them , the same Sanctifying Light and Illumination ? An. God who reveals those things to the obedient that he hides from the disobedient ; this plainly contradicts thee and thy former words , for God is still the same Light , and it is the Spirit of Truth that Sanctifyes and Justifyes the Righteous or Obedient , that reproves the world of sin , &c. And this is the condemnation , that light is come into the world and men love darkness rather then light , &c. Joh. 3. So in this matter thou hast shewed thy self ignorant of the Scriptures . Pr. Where there are many Words of God , being taken together they are called the Word of God. An. Thou mightest as well say , that many words and one word are both one ; Where provest thou thy assertion ? For in contradiction to this presently after , the Scriptures call Christ the Word of God in some places , and sure the Scriptures and Christ are distinguished ; they are not Christ. Pr. K. 8.46 . That there is no man liveth and sinneth not . It doth not say , there is no man liveth and hath not sinned . An. He that abideth in Christ the second Covenant sinneth not but is redeemed out of that state in which there is no man that sinneth not , and John said , If we say we have not sinned we make him a liar , &c. 1 Joh. 1.10 . Pr. Their begetting is in order of nature before their faith . An. Whe●e provest that ? Is begetting in the unbelief then , and not in the Faith whereas the Word which begetteth is the Word of Faith and profits not where t is not mixed with Faith within . Pr. Those of your way have held out to the world , that to have Hebrew Greek and Latine , is a mark of Antichrist . An. Thou hast often wronged those of our way , as thou hast in this , wherein thou art answered at first . Pr. Those who tell us of a faith in Christ without the Scriptures , have no Light in them . Secondly , There are many things which we think and desire against the Law , which the Light within would never have discovered if there had not been the knowledg of the Law contained in the Scriptures . An. Are all unbelievers then , and have no Light in them but who have the Scriptures ? Thy blindness in this is detected before : And , What contradiction is it to tell of some having no Light in them , when before thou hast confessed all men to have a natural Light , or the Light of a natural Conscience in them ? Secondly , And was it the Scriptures or the Law as it is in the Letter that discovered to Paul his sins and desires , or the Law inward ? For he had the Law outward , before he knew or was turned to the Law in his mind , or was cl●arly convinced in hims●lf . Pr. Did ever the Prophets or Apostles try the Doctrines of persons deluded by Satan , with the Spirit without the Scripture , Deut. 13. An. The Prophets and Apostles had the Spirit , and knew its sufficiency before they gave forth Scriptures , and these were not deluded by Satan as falsly thou hast accused us to be . An. Have not some of your way been so blasphemous as to aver Jesus Christ to be a type , as to call themselves the Messiah to whom Hosanna should be said . An. I know none in our way , that either calls themselves the Messiah or that own such a thing , but co●fess to Jesus Christ as b●ing the substance , and the end of types shadows and figures ; but as for those whom thou hints of , about their saying Hosanna , they were not in our way but testified against , and some of themselves came after to see , confess and repent of their error , so to upbraid us with any one 's failings or miscarriage , espetially when t is both disowned and testifyed against by us , this is both unequal and unjust ; and wouldest thou be so dealt by if I should go to reckon up how many drunken and whoreing Priests th●re be , and should charge all of you and your whole Kirk with their wickedness ; Wouldest thou take it well ? Which indeed I might better do , whilest such are owned and upheld as teachers of others among you , th●n thou mights accuse us with persons and actions , that are cast out from amongst us . Pr. What is the Rule whereby the motions of the Spirit are to be tryed whether they be such , or the motions of Satan and our deceitful hearts ? Ye answer the Spirit is the Rule , but this cannot be ; for the Spirit hath given the Scriptures . Secondly , Neither is that place which ye cite to the purpose , ( Viz. The Anoynting teacheth all things ) for though he teach it is by this Rule . An. Yes , The Spirit of God is sufficient , a Rule sufficient both to try the motions of Satan , and your deceitful hearts , it searcheth all things ; The Lord searcheth the hearts and tryeth the reines , telleth unto man his thoughts . And if the Anoynting within teacheth of all things ; Must the Scriptures be a Rule to the Anoynting , that thou seemest to tye it to the Scriptures ? Or , Is not the teaching of the Anoynting Scripture , as well as it was in them that spoke Scripture from it ? Or , Must not people believe the Anoynting , till they have searched the Scriptures to try it by them ? If so , then when the Anoynting would tell and shew them their perticular states , and thoughts , and motions , which the Scriptures do not tell them , nor perticularly charge upon them , then they are not at all in such cases to believe , nor follow the Anoynting according to thy Doctrine ; and what is this but to set up the Scriptures above the Anoynting , and the Letter above the Spirit , which is a gross error , and bespeaks great ignorance . Pr. In the Synod at Jerusalem , Act. 15. the Apostles searched the Scriptures for what they determined , before they said , it seemed good to the holy ghost and us . An. Where provest thou that they searched the Scriptures for what they determined , before they said , it seemed good to the holy ghost and us ? Doth not this plainly confute thee , that what they said was from the holy ghost ? And , Was not its teaching their Rule then ? And , What Scripture had they then to forbid Circumcision as they did ? Nay , Had they not Scripture ra●her for it ? If then they had not Scripture to forbid it , they should not have d●nied or forbid it , nor have believed the holy ghost in this case ; by thy Doctrine , what silly work hast thou made on 't ; and , How hast thou broken the neck of thy own cause ? Pr. The gift of discerning of Spirits was a peculiar gift given but to some , but this was not for tryal of Doctrine : None who had that gift of discerning of Spirits did try any Truths or Doctrine , or practice , but by the Scripture . An. This is a strange Doctrine , that they must onely try Spirits by the gift or Spirit of Truth , and not any Truths or Doctrine ; Whether is greater , the tryal of Spirits or of Doctrines ? Wh●reas the Spirit search●th all things , and is a Spirit of true Judgment , that giveth true understanding ; but according to thy false Doctrine that none who had discerning of Spirits did try any Truths or Doctrine , or practice , but by the Scriptures : Then by this , when the Apostles in their Epistles writ divers things that were not before in the Scriptures , they were not to be believed by them in the Churches that had the gift of discerning , and when the Spirit of Truth shall lead to speak or prophesie concerning a perticular Place , People or Nation , that which they have no Scripture for , this therefore is not to be believed for want of Scripture to prove it by . Thy ignorant and sottish stuff which also excludes all those Books and Prophesies of the holy men of God spoken of , which are not record●d in the Bible . And those of our Friends , which foretold of the late calamities befallen the City of London , both that of the ●lague , and that of the Fire , which were both fore-seen and fore-told , yet they had no Scripture to prove it ; but alass , such as thou are silly and shallow in these matters , being but as those Seers and Watchmen that are blind , who would insinuate into people , that both Prophesying , Visions and Revelations are ceas●d , and lay all upon the Scriptures ; and then how know you the Doctrine contained in them to be true without the Spirit . Pr. Ye say ; Must the Scriptures be the Rule to discern or try false Spirits when they speak Scripture ? Ans. When the Devil spake Scripture to Christ , he confuted him by Scripture , which shewed he had perverted them ; and so he confounded the Scribes and Pharisees alwayes . An. But could not Christ discerne the Devils spirit without the Scriptures ? What gross error and ignorance is implyed and couched in this thy impertinent answer ! Thou tellest us Christ confuted him by the Scripture , which was when the Devil brought Scripture words to back his Temptations withal , which is not an answer ; besides the Devils tempting Christ in these words , Command that these stones be made bread ; and , Cast thy self down , &c. were not Scripture , but he falsly went about to have backed them with Scriptures , contrary to the end and intent of the Scriptures . Pr. You answer blasphemously , that they thought to have Eternal Life in the Scriptures , as if our Lord Jesus Christ was fomenting them in a deceit of their own hearts , in bidding them search the Scriptures , for to find him in them , and so Eternal Life . An. Thy charge against my answer is false , and I vallue it not , that Christ should bid them search the Scriptures to find him in them ; this is a strange Doctrine and worse then the former , to lay that upon Christ which he never intended nor spake ; his words were not that they might find Christ in the Scriptures , nor Eternal Life , but in them ye think to have eternal life , whereas they would not come to him that they might have Life ; and so , Doest thou think that Christ that dyed at Jerusalem , was to be found in the Scriptures ? Pr. That Christ has paid a ransome for those that wilfully trample under foot the blood of the Son of God , those places are understood by you , of every individual person in the world , that he tasted death for them is false , contrary to the Scriptures , and maketh the death of Christ to be vain , and exalteth free will. An. what we understand of those places of Scripture , is neither false nor contrary to the Scriptures , as falsly and erroniously thou hast accused us ; for that Christ died for all that were dead in sins , tasted dea●h for every man , gave hims●lf a Ransom for all , is the propitiation not for our sins onely , but for the sins of the whole world , is plain in the Scriptures , which ignorantly thou quarrels against . Pr. If Christ did pay a Ransom for the Soul of Judas , he hath Redeemed him ; those for whom he hath given himself , he Redeemed from all iniquity , but the damned and reprobates are not Redeemed : Those for whom Christ came , he is a Saviour unto , and saveth them from their sins : How are they lost if he came to save them ? But this argueth either defect of wisdom , that he did not foresee such an intention of his death would prove frustrations , or else want of power to effectuate his intention of saving them . An. Christs absolute intention and will is not made voyd , nor wants he power to effect it , but such an intention we did not lay upon his death to save all : And as for the death of Christ and his intention of saving , being made vain and frustrations , either from defect of wisdom or want of power , these are both false ; for his intention therein , consists with his good will and freeness towards all , for I did not say that his intention was absolute to save all , but I do say , it was an intention of good to all , according to the good will of God towards all , who willeth not the death of sinners but rather that they may return and live . But Christ in his suffering and death was passive , and the putting forth of his power to save such as are saved , stood not barely therein , though his good will therein appeared , but we are saved by his life . But are the damned and reprobates such , because ordained of God so to be , or because Christ , died not for them ( according to thy Doctrine ? ) And so ; Must the cause of their destruction be laid upon God and Christ , or upon them for rej●cting free Grace , resisting the councel of the Lord , not liking to retain God in their knowledg , and trampling under foot the blood of the Son of God ( as thou hast confessed before ) to thy own contradiction , who so much hast cavilled against us , for confessing to the free Grace of God , and Christs dying for all ( or every man ? ) But this is like your pitiful narrow , and partial Presbiterian Spirit and Principle ; that would so limmit God in the dispensation of his Grace , and tye it up in such a nar●ow compass ; and , What was the cause of Judas his fall ? And , Who was the Authour of his Transgression ? Was God or he to be blamed therein ? And , Had not he Grace given him before , seeing that by Transgression he fell ? Will thy telling us so often of Judas clear thee or confute us ? How silly a●d weak hast thou shewed thy self in this matter ? Pr. Those [ all ] for whom he dyed cannot be meant of every individual person , for they live to him , and not to themselves ; but the wicked that perish live not to Christ. Secondly , Neither would Christ ev●r give himself , his blood a Ransom for them , for whom he would not pray ; but he saith , he prayeth not for the world , Joh. 17. An. Thou hast herein wronged the Scripture , and erred ; for it is not all for whom Christ died that live to him , for , 2 Cor. 5. chap. & ver . 14 , 15. If one died for all , then were all dead , and that he died for all , that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves , but unto him which died for them , and rose again . Now they which live unto him , are not those ( all ) for whom he died . And Christ praying not for the world at that time , 2. John 17. is no argument that he did not give himself a Ransom for all ; for though at that time he prayed not for the world , but for the disciples or such as were chosen out of the world ( who were in the world before they were chosen out of it ) yet at other times he did pray for his persecutors , and such as were of the world ; as also exhorted his to pray for their enemies and persecutors , &c. Pr. Judas never got saving Grace , nor that same Grace that Peter got , and therefore could not reject it . An. Judas had part of the Ministry that the other Apostles had ; and , Did not that proceed from saving Grace ? Or , What Grace ? ( How blind art thou ! ) And wherefore was Judas condemned then ; Was it because God refused to give him saving Grace , or for his own transgression ? Pr. The Scriptures import that Christ is a propitiation for all the Elect which are called all the world . An. John said , He is the propitiation for our sins ( and were not they the Elect ) and not for ours onely , but for the sins of the whole world . Must we believe thy meaning contrary to the very words of Scripture , or were the whole world all the Elect ? How hast thou wrested plain Scripture herein ? Pr. Who is it , that hath put the difference betwixt Peters believing , from Judas mis-believing ? Whether it be Gods Grace to Peter denied to Judas ? An. Where provest thou it was denied to Judas , or that Judas had no part of the same Grace ? For before thou sayest wicked men have the common work of the Spirit ( but in contradiction sayest ) which is not supernatural , from Rom. 2.14 . Were th●y then wicked men spoken of there , Which did by nature those things contained in the law , and shewed the work , or effect of the law written in their hearts ? What then are they that Rebel against the law , if they that obey it be wicked ? Whereas the Apostle saith , before , That the doers shall be justified . See how thou hast brought forth one error and falshood upon another . Pr. Is not the Father distinct from the Son and the Spirit , in the personal subsistance ? An. Where learnedst thou these words ( the Father distinct from the Son and Spirit in the personal subsistance ) these are not the words of Scripture , or the words of Scripture clearly conferred together , as thou sayest after , but in contradiction after , thou sayest , although the Scripture doth not in so many words make mention of three Persons , who are one God , and three distinct Persons , and that these cannot be three , if they be not distinct ; for where there is no distinction , there is perfect oneness , &c. What 's the consequence of this , but that therefore there is not perfect oneness in the Deity or God-head ; because , three distinct Persons ( or three distinct one from another in personal subsistance ? ) Is this good Doctrine ? Is not that oneness between the Father and the Son perfect ? And , Did not Christ say , I and my Father are one , and prayed that his might be perfect in one , as he and his Father were one ? And though thou hast said , you disalow all Traditions , or any written rule which is not Scripture , and yet thou wilt use words and distinctions , which are not Scripture according to thy own confession ; ( What confusion art thou ●n ! ) For whereas I answered thee , that we own what the Scriptures of truth assert of the God-head , Viz. That there are three that bear record in heaven , the Father , the Word , and the Spirit , and these three are one , &c. ( and thou thy self in the next Page sayest , that both the Father , the Son , and the holy Ghost , are a Spirit ) howbeit , my honest answer in Scripture words would not satisfy thee , but thou hast villifyed and abused me in this matter , in several reproaches and slanders , as with shameless rayling and deriding , &c. with grose evasion , with not being able to answer thee , with not owning what the Scriptures assert , and with blaspheamous fancyes , blaspheaming Jesus Christ , &c. All which accusations I utterly deny as thy malitious lies and slanders against me ( and thy bundle is stuffed with many more of like nature ) and if thou didst not propound any of those quarrels as not knowing the answer of them , as thou sayest , &c. then , Didest thou propound them to cavil , and get some advantages to carp at ? For thou hast shewed thy self in prejudice against us , and hast reckoned me ( or us ) as wanting Learning , &c how-be-it thou hast shewed such Learning as thou hast to confute me , with broken School phrases and words , with some few fragments , and traditional distinctions patched up together , which we can have no Scripture for , but thy consequences , which much might be said to shew the weakness and shallowness thereof . Pr. Those who had Christ the living bread , yet were partakers of the outward bread , as the disciples were ; Were not the Corinthians Saints ? &c. An. That the disciples had outward bread ; Who denies ? But that it was to continue alwayes of necessity , as an Ordinance after Christ , the Living Bread and Life was received in them , ( which is the substance ) that 's not yet proved , that the disciples were to shew forth the Lords death till he come in the observation of the Bread and Cup ( or supper ) I grant : Now what , and when that coming was , is the matter in controversie . Christ came after , when he was arisen , was apparent ; he also spiritualy came , and was more fully revealed within the Saints , and was their Living Bread and Life ( as thou grantest ) now when he was with the disciples at supper ( before he was Crucified ) he intended by his coming , a third coming , till which they were to do it , which coming not being in their dayes , nor is yet ( by your Doctrine ) this is no where proved in Scripture as we know . Pr. Were not the Corinthians Saints , called in Christ ? And yet the Apostle , 1 Cor. 11. he gave them the Bread and Cup which Christ gave to his disciples , the night he was betrayed . Secondly , And whereas ye say , that Christs coming again was when he rose again ; how false is this and absurd , &c. An. That 's very strange Doctrine , that the Apostles gave the Corinthians , the Bread and Cup which Christ gave to his disciples the night he was betrayed ; Where was it kept in the mean time , that they both should have the same Bread and Cup , the one so many years after the other ? Where hast thou learned this , amongst the Popish Traditions and Reliques ? But t is probable thou meanest other-wise then thy words import . Secondly , And Is it false and absurd to say , that Christs coming again was when he rose again ? Did he not come again after he rose ? And must that be reckoned for no coming ? And a third coming which is not yet ; and , Was that an outward coming till which the disciples and Corinthians were to continue the Bread and the Cup , whereas that coming is not yet according to thy Doctrine ? The Apostle to the Corinthians told them what Christ did and spoke to the disciples in the case , but we read not that he imposed it upon them , to continue it all their time , or till a supposed coming of Christ , which is not yet come , for he said to them , The cup of blessing which we bless , is it not the communion of the blood of Christ , the bread which we break is it not the communion of the body of Christ , And , Was not this the substance ? Where then remained the necessity of the shadow , or outward Representations ( or Mementoes as some calls them ? ) And , When was the Church to shew forth the Life of Christ , and by what , if all their time they must needs ( and people still ) shew forth or represent his death , and him as suffered ( as thou sayest ) by Bread and Wine ? Doth not the substance end the shadows ? And , Where have you any example in Scripture , for the manner of your administring Bread and Wine at certain times a year , and calling it a Sacrament , The Lords Supper ? &c. Pr. The Apostle telleth that the Corinthians were to shew forth his death till he came again , so it behoved to be such a coming again as was yet future , and unaccomplished in the Corinthians time : the Bread and Cup spoken of to the Corinthians , behoved to be outward Bread as shewing forth his death . Secondly , Because it was the same that Christ took and devided , and gave to his disciples . An. What confusion's here ! Were they to use the outwa●d Bread and Cup after they were dead then ? If they were to observe it to a coming unaccomplished in their tim● . And if it was the same that Christ devided and gave to his disciples ; Was that the outward bread so given to both ? Or , Was there not more in Christs words then the outward observation ? What was his Body and his Blood , and the Cup of the New Testament in his Blood , and the f●uit of the vine in the kingdom ; Was it not spiriritual , a mystery , which the outward Bread , Cup and Passover were but as signs or shadowes of ? Pr. There is no such passage written , that Christ appointed it to be taken away by his suffering . An. As oft as they did it , it was to shew the Lords death till he came ; What coming , and when was it , or is it to be he intended ? Wa' st a first , or a second , or a third ? And was it inward or outward ? Pr , Neither is the Bread and Wine a shadow . Secondly , For he being present , and it representing him ( as suffered , it cannot be called a shadow as of things to come ) An. Is the Bread and Wine the substance Then ? this is popish , thus to deny the ●read and Wine to be a shadow , and worse then the Episcopals that tell us of their Sacraments being outward and visible signes , of an inward and Spiritual Grace . Secondly , If Christs being present makes Bread and Wine no shadow , or not figurative , then by the same reason the Passover which the disciples prepared ( to answer that part of the Law ) was not a shadow , nor Circumcission , Offerings , &c. when done either for Christ or in his presence , which to affirm and make that the reason , were grose and absurd , whereas the mystery , substance , or end , was not so fully manifest , when Christ was outwardly present ( before his being offered up ) as after when they were indued with power from on high , received the promise of the Comforter , came to eat his flesh and drink his blood , which saying , the disciples for a time ( when he was with them ) were troubled at , and counted hard . Pr. It concerneth all who own the Doctrine contained in the Scriptures , though they be for baptizing with sprinkling , to propound a query to men that do with sacrilegious boldness , take away the Ordinances instituted by Christ unto believers . An. Is it not then sacrilegious boldness for thee and the Priests to teach ( or impo●e ) sprinkling Infants , which is neither a Doctrine contained in Scriptures , nor a baptizing believers , howbeit , such a great stress hath been laid on the Scriptures before as being the rule and means for Faith , and Salvation , revealing the Mystery , for receiving Life E●ernal in them , Christ in them , &c. yet we find not sprinkling I●fants in the Scriptures neither by command nor practice , though so much pleaded for by one here that tels us , Pag. 35. they disallow all Traditions or any unwritten rule which is not Scripture ; but sprinkling Infants is not Scripture but onely a Tradition of men : And one main plea for it is , that Infants baptisme was approved and practised in the Orthodox Church of Christ , &c. which is just like the Papists and Jesuits plea , to believe as the Church believes ( taking it for granted that the Church is pure ( as he saith ) Orthodox in all her Traditions ) whether they be Scripture yea or nay ; whereas before , all Traditions or any unwritten rule which is not Scripture are disallowed , but instead of Scripture for proof in this matter , we have mention made of the Teachers and Guides of the Church ( as he calls them ) as Tertullian , Cyprian , who lived about 247. after Christ , and Lactanctius that lived about the year , 317. As also the latter sound Fathers ( as he calls them ) as Augustin , Jerom , Bassil , ( Viz. their being for Infants baptisme ) but what proves all this from Scripture ( if it be as he sayes they did ) Must we take it up upon an implicite faith , because such and such approved of it ? And yet at other times , lay such a stress on the Scriptures as the perfect rule of obedience of faith , &c. How hath E. I. undervallued the Scriptures in this matter , and spoyled his own cause touching them ? And , Do not the Papists plead for their Traditions and Ceremonys against Protestants and others , in like manner as he hath done in this cause ? And , Would he be willing to accept their Arguments against Protestants , when they are of the same nature , and bear the same face with his in this point ? Pr. That the Covenant Abraham and his Seed was under , was the same in substance , with that which believers now and their Seed are under ; and therefore the Children of believers should be under the Initial Seal of the Covenant as Abrahams were . An. Where provest thou by Scriptures , that sprinkling Infants is the Initial Seal of the Covenant ? ( Or that ti 's so called ) thou herein doest but beg the question , and takest it for granted that it is the Initial Seal of the Covenant of Grace , ( which I deny ) and then from thence fallatiously drawes thy inference and conclusions , for its being to Believers Seed as Abrahams Children ( to wit the males were Circumcised ) and that the Covenant Abraham and his Seed was under , was the same in substance with that which believers now , and their Seed are under : But what of this ; if it be granted , it was Gods Covenant or Promise ; Must they therefore be under mans tradition ? which sprinkling Infants is , ( To plead for it from believers being baptized , is to ground it upon that , you ( Priests ) are out of the practice of ) so as to that it 's not pertinent to dispute with such about it , who own it not in practice , but onely talk of it for a cover to a popish tradition , and thereby shew their hypocrisie the more ; and , Must now sprinckling Infants stand for the substance , or antitype instead of Circumcision ? Or , Was Circumcision the type of Infants Baptizme ( so called ? ) Whereas sprinckling Infants hath neither the true form nor matter of Baptisme [ outward ] in it , for in the next page it 's confessed , that the word in the first Language signifying Baptisme is rendered washing , Mar. 7.4 , 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , afterwards it 's said , that being washed all over , best signifies our inward renovation and burial with Christ , and thus contradictions and confusions are heaped up in many places . And to my saying , that it s not commanded under the New Covenant to Baptize Infants , thou replyest the Apostle Peter , Act. 2.38 , 39. sayes , That those to whom that promise that God would be their God , and the God of their Seed , should be baptized , but to Believers and their Seed , he saith that promise belongeth , &c. Now let the Reader but peruse that Scripture mentioned by thee , and compare thy fallacious arguing from it ; for Peter said , Ver. 38. Repent and be baptized every one of you , &c. Were they Infants such as the Priests sprinkle , that he bid repent ? How grosly hast thou perverted Scripture ! And Ver. 39. The promise is to you and your Children , and to all that are a far off , even as many as the Lord our God shall call . Now , What can be inferred from hence for sprinkling Infants ? Were all they whom God should call Infants when called ? Or , Did Peter intend they should all have their Children sprinkled before they were called ? But in contradiction afterward thou sayest , though there be no express command , yet it s of divine institution and warrant , if it be drawn from good consequence from the Scripture , indeed I have seldom met with any that have appeared so Impertinent and Ridiculous in their consequences , as thou hast done in this matter , though thou countest thy consequence of Divine Authority , as well as express commands ; But they bear no such Authority with us , who see thy perverting and abusing Scriptures to maintain , and patch up a popish tradition and humane invention , which thou hast no express command for ; and then thou hast in this doubly confuted thy self , for is there some command of Divine Authority now which is not Scripture , when before thou laid such a great stress upon Scripture and deniedst Revelation Immediate teaching , &c. from the Light within and hast dirided it under the name of Enthusiasme , when now thou pleads for something being of Divine Authority which is not Scripture viz your sprinkling Infants , which in Page 37. thou sayest brought to the Church , is the ordinary way of putting on Christ , and ordinary means for Salvation ; and sayest we are Baptized into Jesus Christ and his death , from , Rom. 6. and 3. whereas before , the Scriptures were cryed up as the ordinary way and meanes , &c. But now , that which no where the Scriptures repuires , and that of , Rom. 6 and 3. So many of us as where baptized into Jesus Christ , were baptized into his death ; how impertinent is this for thy turn , as if sprinkling did Baptize Infants into the death of Christ , or as if the Apostles and Believers then were so baptized , when Infants ( as thou pleadest ) which is absurd to imagine , and I should think thou canst not really intend such a thing in this proof as sprinkling Infants , which thou wouldest also make us believe is a standing Ordinance of Christ to continue till the end of the world from , Mat. 28. and , Mar. 16.16 . where they are commanded , To teach all Nations baptizing them . And , He that believes and is baptized shall be saved . But did th●y go to teach Infants of a week old ? Or , Were such the Believers that were Baptized ? How blind , sottish , and ridiculous hast thou appeared in this matter , as also in counting it one while the ordinary meanes for Salvation , or that which Baptizeth into the death of Christ ; another while as in the thirty eight Page that which signifies our putting on Christ , inward washing , &c. so here it doth but signify inward washing , and therefore is not the putting on Christ ; not that which brings into the Church , neither doth it really signify inward washing , for thou speakest , as that being washed all over best signifies our inward Renovation ; and one while , pleads for this thy pretended great Ordinance , as belonging to the Seed of Believers , and of such as have received the Spirit ; another while the Children of which are prophane , and drunkards that profess the Gospel , whom thou sayest are in this sence accounted Believers , and thirty ninth Page reckons it not needful for Ministers to be perswaded that they are Righteous , so it appeares such Ministers as thou art will be easily satisfied for their own ends , and upon slender grounds receive men as Believers , if they do but profess the Gospel though they be drunkards and prophane and thus the Parish Priests of the Presbyterian gang have deceitfully daubed their h●arers , and acted like hypocrites towards those whom they knew to be drunkards , prophane , and so really unbelivers , unholy unrighteous , &c. yet if they will from their teeth outward , say they believe and profess the Gospel , though they be known to the contrary , the Priest will not deny them their Seal of the Covenant to their Children [ though they deem them unholy also ] which other whiles they deem as such a sacred thing , as onely belongs to the Seed of Believers , and such as are within the Covenant . And another sorry shift and come off , in the thirty eight Page is concerning the Jewes that fell into gross sins , who all drank of the Rock , which was Christ , from hence thou sayest , that to profess Christ is called a drinking of Christ , and where provest thou that Doctrine , that to profess Christ is a drinking of Christ , this is a very easie way thou hast prescribed for drinking of Christ if to profess him be it , and then all that profess him drink of him by this Doctrine , the falshood whereof we need not say much to . But whereas thou sayest concerning those Israelites , That ate the same spiritual bread , and drank the same spiritual drink , that drank of the Rock which was Christ , how-be-it thou confessest they fell into gross sins , as is cleared from the History of the Books of Exod. Levit. Numb . Deuteronomy , and 1 Cor. 10.1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. and that many of them were Idolaters , lusters after evill , committed fornication , tempters of God , murtherers ( as thou sayest ) by all which thou hast sufficiently confuted thy self , and given a deadly blow to thy own Cause , and proved a falling away from Grace , which before was an Arminian and Popish Doctrine with thee , or Damnable Popery ; for , Was not that spiritual meat , and spiritual drink ; and that Rock spoken of , saving Grace ? And thy saying for Infants Baptisme , that it is the Seal of the Covenant , and to be given to those that are within the Covenant ; but , Are Drunkards , prophane Persons and their Seed , and whole Parishes within the Covenant ? Compare thy matter together : Yet thou hast confessed the Spirit is the inward Seal , but sayest Baptisme is the outward Seal , and then instead of proof , askest why may not the Covenant now have outward Seales joyned with the inward Seal of the Spirit ; How faintly comest thou off here ? And , Where provest thou sprinkling Infants a Seal of the New Covenant , or that the Covenant hath two such Seales as thou implyest , and how knowest thou that its joyned with the inward Seal of the Spirit upon the Children of drunkards and prophane persons , or on such as turn drunkards , swearers , &c. who come under this thy Seal , which hath no impression of Scripture or Divine Authority in it ; but now seeing that to gloss over thy groundless Tradition and Confusion uttered in mantaining it , thou hast often made use of divers Scriptures , which the Baptists were wont to bring for Baptizing or Plunging such as repent or believe ; I have not entered here into controversy with rhee about that point , it being not thy own , but onely thou wouldest make it serve for a cover ; yet when thou turnest Baptist , and intendest to be real in pleading for Plunging believers , thou mayest let me or us know , and that point probably may be treated of , as whether or no it be of necessity to Salvation , and so of continuance to the true Church : But however , under the sence of the Baptisme of the Spirit which baptizeth into one body , we do know present sattisfaction , and do acquiess in our Spirits above the Traditions of men and Rudiments of the world . E. J. Thy Book came but to my hands this summer , it seems it was delayed in the hands of some , otherwise , I had answered it long ago . G. W. The DOCTRINES , CONTRADICTIONS , INCONSISTENCIES , and VARIATIONS of the Presbiterian Priests of Scotland , as they were collected ( in their own words ) out of the said bundle , subscribed by Edward Jameson , &c. together with brief Observations and Notes upon them ; evidently shewing the confused body of their perverse work and babylonish structure , to the discredit and overthrow of their own corrupt cause , by their many and apparent Incosistencies and self Confutations which are here made obvious . THere is no man free of sin in this life . Christ is manifest to destroy the works of the Devil . Then is Christ manifest to destroy sin and free from it , which they that plead for , know not his manifestation . Christ doth not subdue sin totally in this life . Whosoever is born of God sinneth not , he that abides in him commits not sin . Then he that 's born of God , and abideth in Christ knowes him to subdue sin totally in this life . That Christ is manifest to destroy the work of the devil , if you take it so , may as well prove that Satan shall not tempt a Child of God. The evil one toucheth him not 1 Joh. 3. ch . 5. ( but this doth not prove any thing ) the evil one toucheth them not . To say these do not prove any thing is false and against plain Scripture , and they whom the evil one cannot touch , his tempting them hath not power to lead them into his work , for all are not evil doers whom Satan tempts . This saying [ if we sin ] implies as much as [ when we sin . ] We teach that Believers should be daily ( by the strength of the Spirit ) fighting against the flesh . The strength of the Spirit of God is greater then the devil or sin either , and they who truly war by it , overcome ; and Johns words were not ( when we sin ) but ( if we sin ) which implies not the same . We know in part , is an imperfect degree of knowledg and so sinful . There are promises of a growth unto Believers , and of a fulness . Which fulness is neither imperfect , nor is any degree of true knowledg sinful . David , Job , Daniel , their failings are noted , which I must cite . David said , cleanse me from my secret sins . And surely then Davids prayers were heard , and his requests granted , and David , Job , Daniel , and others , their deliverances are noted as well as their failings , and that in their life time . For perfect Righteousness , there is no promise in all the Scriptures to any Believer . There are promises unto Believers of a fulness . Gods everlasting Righteousness is promised which is perfect , and the fulness of Christ , Eph. 4.13 . wherein is neither want nor imperfection . Christ bad them search the Scriptures , for in them they thought to have eternal life . This thought could not be a delusion . Preaching is Gods ordinary appointed way for begetting Faith , not by immediate inward teaching alone , without peaching . See the confusion of these Priests , one while ( with them ) the Scriptures are the ordinary way ; another while Preaching ; another while , all immediate teaching by God is denyed ; but another while , it s not by immediate inward teaching alone ; another while , a supernatural influence shining on the understanding is owned . We may find Eternal Life by searching the Scriptures . You deny Learning , study of Scriptures , and deny them interpretatively . Now the Priests interpretations are set for ( and over ) Scripture , which come not from the true and spiritual learning and study , but from Babel . They must have the Scriptures , who have the knowledge of Christ , for without this , they cannot be kept from Hell. Gods absolute Soveranity in his dispensations of Grace is not to be tyed . Then neither to be tyed to the Scriptures , nor the Priests preaching , nor yet to their confused meanings or uncertain interpretations . The Light within is your Enthusiastick fancy . Christ enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world has planted some Light in every man of the world . It s no less then blasphemy to count Christs Light a fancy ; for his life is the light of men , which we bear witness of . I deny any immediate teaching by God. Begetting faith , is not by immediate inward teaching alone without preaching . Then if immediate teaching be of use in part , it is not all to be denied . The Scripture maketh known inward sins , thoughts , maketh us wise to Salvation , able to save us . Christ is said alone to save us , none have a sincere Supernatural Faith of the Scripture that are ignorant of Christ , there is a faith of the Scriptures that is hystorical , which is not sufficient . And surely the Scriptures are not Christ , without whose knowledg , and Supernatural Faith in him , the Scriptures are not rightly known and believed , but hystorically . Without this ( Viz the Scriptures ) they cannot be kept from Hell. Christ as the principal cause of Salvation , is said alone to save us . And surely he that alone saves , can alone keep man from Hell. But the best of these nations and wisest , were the greatest enemies to the Gospel . All men have a Light of a natural conscience f●om him , which tells that there is a God , and somewhat of the nature of God , that he is Eternal , and of the morral Law. The Light of Christ in all men is not natural but spiritual , and those in all Nations that were led by it , were not enemies to the Gospel . We deny that the power of God is immediate ( Viz. in his people ) He told us he will exercise his power ; for , and in us . Then his power is immediate in us , and works immediatly in us many times , to our strengthening , comfort and refreshments , when we hear no man speak or preach to us . Faith is a Habit , and an imperfect Creature , and it s as impossible it should be otherwise , as that a man abiding a man should essentially be a beast . Saving , Supernatural , Enlightning and Sanctifying Faith is the Gift of God. What then , Are men Saved , Englightned , and Sanctifyed by that which is imperfect ? What gross Ignorance and Contradiction is this ! The Grace of Hope is Imperfect . Christ is the Hope of Glory . The Grace of Christ is perfect , and he is the Grace of all our Graces . I call the Scriptures the Word of God , and the Gospel the Word of Reconciliation , which are distinguished . The Gospel is the Scriptures written by the Prophets ; what Mark wrote is the Gospel , the beginning of the Gospel ; the Gospel is a part of the Scriptures one with them , conteined in them . If the Scriptures and Gospel be one ; How are they distinguished ? And , if the Gospel and Mynistry of Christ be one , How is the Scripture it ? And if Marks declaration was the beginning of the Gospel , How are the Prophets writings the Gospel ? Is not manifest confusion , variation , and inconsistencies in these passages ? That Christ was first known himself ere he gave the knowledg of the Scriptures ; the Apostle Paul denies your consequence . It s false , that any have a sincere Supernatural Fai●h of the Scriptures that are ignorant of Christ , &c. Then t is not false that there must ( in some degree ) be a Supernatural Knowledg and Faith of Christ , before the Scriptu●es be truely known or believed . I deny any immediate teaching by God , Christs immediate teaching will no wayes follow . Christs opening the understanding to know the Scriptures ; for he doth by the same Supernatural Influence shine on the understanding and Scriptures , Luke . 24.22 . Christs opening and shining by a Supernatural Influence , plainly proves immediate teaching , as we called Quakers do hold ; and against the Priests of Scotlands denying it , who thus confute themselves . If there be any Pryority , or Posteriority of Christ in the Soul , the Scriptures hath it in the order of nature . The Lord in the comunicating of the knowledg of them , he is in his being first ; the cause must be before the effect , so the giver of knowledg before the knowledg given . So that he that is the first , and cause of true knowledg , hath the Priority and Preheminence in all things , without whom the Scriptures are not known ; and if it be a Priority of Christ ( as is said ) then Christ hath it . Without the Sanctifying knowledg of Christ , one may understand the Scriptures without error and jangling . None can know the Truths of the Scriptures , without the Sanctifying Knowledg of Christ. So then , without that Sanctifying Knowledg , none can understand them without error . We may find Eternal Life by searching Scriptures , they thought to have Eternal Life in the Scriptures , this thought could not be a delusion . He that hath heard and learned of the Father , cometh to him ( Viz. to Christ ) he ( to wit the Spirit of Truth ) shall lead believers into all Truth . So then the Father is to be heard and learned of , that the Son may be come to , and the Spirit to be followed to lead into all Truth , and this way was before the Scriptures . Sin is remaining in part , in all the faculties of Gods Children ( Viz. in the Will , Mind , and Affections ) Cleanse thou me , from my secret sins ; Peter exhorted the believing Hebrewes to abstain from their lusts . Then let not sin nor sinful lusts , allwayes remain in believers . If you find out any other faculty of the Soul which can be a seat for sin to dwell in , then the Schooles will be beholding to you for your new Phylosophie . When they are believers and begotten , they are so freed that the evill one cannot touch them ; many are commended for keeping his Commandments . If the evil one cannot touch them , much less hath he power to lead them into sin all their time , or to uphold sin in all their faculties ; and the Schools that would have more place for sin , allow Christ no place . Believers are not freed from sin wholy till death . To be unblamable , is that Grace which is universal in all parts of the renewed man. Unblameable is inconsistant with sin , for sin is blameable where ever it is . A believer ever after he is begotten of God is not free of sin , they do not perfectly mortify lusts in them . In the Book of Common Prayer , there is a promise to forsake the Devil and all his Works , the vain Pompe and Glory of the world , and sinful lusts of the flesh , and be led by Gods Spirit to keep his Commands ; many of those who promise may do this and keep it . What greater promise can there be of freedom from sin , then to forsake the Devil and all his works , to be led by Gods Spirit to keep his Commands ? Your new Light you pretend , is nothing but old Damnable Popery . The Spirit of truth will lead believers into all truth . He that hath heard and learned of the Father cometh to him . Viz. to Christ. Our Light is the Light of the Spirit of Truth , which cometh from Christ , and guides both to hear and learn of the Father ; and this Light was before the Scriptures were , and its blasphemy to call it Damnable Popery . In the present time , I am sold under sin , that good I would do , I do not . Groaning under a body of death : It was not a by-gone state Paul speakes of , in the present time [ I am ] Paul was giving thanks for victory through Jesus Christ ( yet all these are knit together ) Victory , and being sold under sin , are two differing states , as warring , and being more then a Conqueror are : Paul spake to the Romans after the manner of men , because of the infirmity of their flesh , and therein condescended to their capacities , below his own present state and injoyment . Perfect holiness , of both Soul and Body , is not to be till the Resurrection , Viz. after death . Believers at their death , which is upon their dying , are made perfectly holy . Perfect holiness ought not to be put off , neither so long after death , nor till death , for what time do you allow Christ to reign in man , and to serve him , if all your life time sin must remain , and so long the Devil be served ? The Godly falleth into sin seven times a day ; Christ saith to Peter , that he should forgive his brother seventy times seven , which implyeth , that a brother may offend often in the day time . As for my saying a day , it was a mistake of the citation of the place . That of the Spirit is most prevailing with Gods Children , as unto which they do adhere ; the flesh they renounce and resist , and which by little and little they overcome . It had been well thou hadst confest thy mistakes as ingenuously in other things , the controversie had been the less ; but , Do the Brethren sin all their dayes ? When then do they overcome ? What gross confusion art thou in ! While we live , we must put on the armour of God and war against sin , which is not to be ended till we lay down this Tabernacle . We are cleansed from all sin by the Blood of Christ , in Justification when we do believe . If believers be cleansed from all sin when they do believe ; How have they it to war against , till they lay down this Tabernacle ? Surely they believe before . Our peace stands in our Justification by Faith , and yet there are remains of sin in us , which we are to mourn for . There is a perfect cleansing from the guilt of sin . What , a cleansing from the guilt of sin , and not from the sin it self ; this is quite contrary to Scriptures . Christ was given for an advocate , for the sins of those whom John calls little Children and his own , which therefore were to be . That of 1 Joh. 1.12 . I write unto you that you may not sin . Page . 30. Christ Redeemeth from all iniquity , is a Saviour and saveth them from their sins . Math. 1.21 . Luke . 19.10 . Christ being thus a Redeemer , a Saviour , an Advocate , therefore sins are not to be ; and there was young Men and Fathers as well as little Children . The Devils work remains unsubdued in the Child of God , appeares by that Paul saith to the Romans , The God of peace , &c. The God of peace shall tread down Satan under your feet shortly , Rom. 16 20. And sure , when Satan is thus trodden down under foot , his work cannot remain unsubdued ; for both his power and possession is taken from him by a greater then he . We have peace with God , but are all compassed about with infirmities and subject to passions as was Elias . We are cleansed from all sin by the Blood of Christ. A●l passions are not sinful passions ; for passions are sufferings for it could not be that Paul and Barnabas were subjects to the like sins with those Idollaters , Act. 14.13 , 14 , 15. when subject to like passion with them . Here is another Arminion and Popish error , that believers may fall from Grace . A believer may fall , Peter and David sinned foully . Surely their sinning so foully was not in the Faith , but when they were turned from it , which required their repentance . That Peter and David fell from Faith , is an Arminion , and Popish error . Evil works come not from Faith. Then the evil works they did , were out of , and against the Faith ; and had they stood in the Faith , they had been kept from those evil works . Peter and David had their failings , Viz. ( till dea●h ) Eliah an old Prophet , subject to like passion as we are , &c. Christ said to Peter , I have prayed for thee that thy Faith fail not : When thou art converted strengthen thy brethren . Doth signify when he should be fully recovered . And surely Peter was so converted or fully recovered , as to strengthen his Brethren before his decease ; and like passions were like sufferings , which may relate to sickness , Ja● . ● . 13 , 14. or other afflictions , for Paul and Barnabas were not subject to the like Sins or Idollatry with those heathens Act. 14.15 . It is not sad Doctrine as you say , but comfortable , that as believers may fall as Peter and David , whereas he doth not fall wholly away , but hath still the Seed of Grace remaining in him p. 24. The sad breach that Peters fall made on his Soul , did weaken his Grace and cloud his comforts very much . There are remains of sin within us which we are to mourn for . If sin did very much cloud his comforts , and be the cause of mournings as it was both to David and Peter ; then for you to plead for sin term of life cannot be a comfortable Doctrine , unless to such as be hardened in sin , and take pleasure in it . Which improvment of the Light within , must indeed come from free will , and consequently ye hold Merit . We must put on the whole armour of God , and war against sin . pa. 23. Do not they improve the Light who war against sin ; and this is not of , or from mans will in the Fall , but from the power that converts , and works in him to will and to do . There are remains of sin within us while we live here , which we are to mourn for . The kingdom of God is Righteousness , Peace , Joy in the holy ghost . Twenty sixth Page . Therefore sin which is the cause of sorrow , hath no place in the kingdom of God , which the Saints attain to here . Faith is an habit , and an imperfect creature . Saving Faith is given of God , and is a saving enlightning of the Soul , to know Christ , Faith , is a Sanctifying Light. What strange Doctrine is this , that an imperfect creature is a Saviour , an Enlightener , a Sanctifier ; and doth the Kirk of Scotland receive this for Orthodox : The Gift of God is perfect , and every good and perfect Gift comes from God. Those who tell us of a Faith in Christ without Scriptures , have no Light in them . pa. 28. Twenty sixth Pag. The Jewes wilfully rejected the Light , and shut their eyes against it ; wicked men , who rebel against the Light , have the Light of a natural Conscience , and the common work of the Spirit . Then they had the Light , and the work of the Spirit is not natural , but no Light in them excludes natural Light , as well as spiritual from being in them , whereas in that , Isa. 8.20 . it should be no morning in stead of no Light. Jesus Christ , bid them search the Scriptures , for to find him in them . They might have Life by the true spiritual knowledg of Faith , these who believed and had Life did own the Light within , and who denieth that is Christ , sheweth by the Spirit of Revelation and Wisdom within . Now Supernatural Knowledg , Light within , Spirit of Revelation and Wisdom within is confessed ; but another while imediate teaching , power &c. is denied by those who think to find Christ in the Scriptures ; but , Is that Christ that suffered at Jerusalem to be found in the Scriptures ? How blind are you Priests of Scotland . The Child of God cannot sin Totally and Finally : There is no man liveth and sineth not . Those for whom Christ hath given himself he Redeemeth from all iniquity . How , from all iniquity , and yet sin so much contended for by you . These all for whom Christ died , cannot be meant of each individual person of the world how are they lost if he came to save them ; this argueth defect of wisdom to foresee want of power to effect his intention pa. 31. He died for all , some have wilfully rejected the Grace given , that wilfully trample under foot , the blood of the Son of God. There is neither defect of wisdom nor want of power in Christ , but wilfulness and rebellion in man that lets ; he died for all his Grace is freely tendered that they may believe and be saved : But this is not by absolute compulsion and force , as if therefore he were absolutely intended to save all ; but Love and Good Will is shewed towards all , many wilfully reject and trample upon it ( as is confest ) Motions of Satan and our deceitful hearts are to be tried , it is comfortable Doctrine , that a believer may fall as David and Peter . Those that got a new heart from God , and his fear put in them , they do not depart nor revolt . It is the deceitful hearts that are comforted with such Doctrine , that is for falling as David and Peter did , and not the new heart in which Gods fear is put . The Scriptures do reveal the Mysteries . pa. 27. Jesus Christ sheweth by the Spirit of Revelation and Wisdom within . pa. 30. The Scriptures testifie of the Mysteries , but then Christ by that Spirit within Reveales them . The Scriptures ( being many words of God taken together ) they are called the Word of God. pa. 25. The Scriptures calleth Christ the Word of God in some places . Christ the Word was before the Scriptures , or the Words , besides , one word is not many words , nor many words properly to be taken for one word . Is not the Father distinct from the Son and the Spirit in the personal Subsistance . pa. 31. Both the Father and the Son , and the Holy Ghost are a Spirit . pa. 33. Both ( ●or all ) a Spirit , and yet distinct in personal Subsistance ; Where learned you this Doctrine ? Not from the Scriptures . Ye do not own what the Scriptures assert , but your own blasphemous fancies ( Viz. ) about the Deity ; three Persons distinct in the personal Subsistance . pa. 32. Ye say ye own what the Scriptures of Truth assert of the God-head ; That there are three that bear record in heaven , the Father , the word and the spirit , and those three are one . Then we own what the Scriptures assert of the Deity o● the Father , Word and the Spirit which are one ; this is no blasphemy no fancies as malitiously we are accused . Except ye call all the words of Scriptures clearly confered together a cavilling , Viz. touching three distinct ▪ Persons in the Deity , &c. Although the Scriptures do not in so many words make mention of the three Persons , &c. who are one God ; we disalow all Traditions , or any unwritten Rule which is not Scripture . Then three dictinct Persons in the Deity , distinct in the personal Subsistance , are not the words of the Scriptures but a Tradition , and why do you then alow of that which is not Scripture , but that There are three that bear record in heaven , and these three are one is Scripture . The Apostles telleth that the Corinthians were to shew forth Christs death till he came again : The Bread spoken of to them , behoved to be this of outward Bread , &c. It behoved to be such a coming againe as was yet future and unaccomplished in the Corinthians time . Were the Corinthians then to eat and drink outwardly after their time , or so long after their deceases ? What absurdity and grosness is here ! Infants Baptism was approved by the Orthodox Church , and the Renouned Teachers and Guides thereof , and sound Father , as Tertullian , Ciprian , Lactant , Augustine , Jerom , Basil , &c. It s derived from the Church when pure . We disallow all Traditions , or any un-written Rule which is not Scripture , whether they be under pretence of Revelation , which Enthusiasts hold ; or Traditions as Papists in this agree . Then Infants Baptisme not being Scripture ( but a popish Tradition ) is therefore to be disalowed of . Children of believers should be under the Initial Seal of the Covenant as Abrahams were . Circumcision was the Seal of the old Covenant , and it was administered on Males onely , page , 35. Circumcision of the Males onely , was in its time Commanded of God , which is no proof of sprinkling Infants both Males and Females , which was never cammanded of God. pa. 38. The Fathers or Isralites , who fell into gross sins , professed the same Doctrine of Salvation ; to profess Christ is called a drinking of Chr●st . &c Abraham and his Seed under the old Covenant , had the same Mediator which is Jesus Christ , he was the same yester-day to them , that he is to day to believers . Their having the same Media●or Jesus Christ the same , &c. And drinking of Christ was more then to profess him , or the Doctrine of Salvation . And , Did such fall into gross sins ? What fell they from if not from Grace Ye say thereis no express command for sprinkling of the Infants of believers . pa. 36 , But we disalow all Traditions or any unwritten Rule which is not Scripture . pa. 35. You ' have confest what I said , that there is no express command for sprinkling Infants , therefore in alowing of it you contradict your selves . Though there be no express command , yet it s of Divine Institution and Warrant ( if it be drawn by good consequence ) from the Scriptures . Truths and Doctrines is to be tried by the Scriptures , so far as can be found in the Scriptures , page , 29. Christ bid search the Scriptures , they reveal the [ Misteries , page ▪ 27. I deny any immediate teaching by God , page . 14. Although a great stress and necessity is laid upon the Scriptures , and immediate teaching so confidently denied , yet no Sprinkling Infants to be found , or required in Scripture ( and whilst any imediate teaching is denied ) How is it of Divine Institution ? Surely Edward Jamisons consequence herein is not Divine , who denies any immediate teaching . pa. 37. If I had said it Viz. Infants Baptism brought them to the Church , those places and many others do hold it , as , Gal. 3.27 . it s the ordinary way of putting on Christ &c. I said not that it did bring them into the Church , but that it is a Seal of our entry into the Church , page . 26. sprinkling of water is enough to signify inward washing . If it doth not bring into the Church , it is but a signe of inward washing , it s not a putting on Christ ; neither can the Scripture prove it when there is no Scripture for it , and were the Scriptures deemed the ordinary way and means , but now sprinkling Infants ; What ignorant and gross contradictions are these ! Ye say Baptisme doth not bring them into the Church , it s a bold Sacrilegious usurpation , in detracting from the words of the Book of God , which shall be punished with all the curses of that Book . Though there be no express command ( for sprin●ling Infants ) yet it s of Divine Institution if it be drawn by good consequence , pa. 36. See what Curses these Priests have laid upon them that deny the Infants Baptisme ( their Scripturles Tradition ) to bring into the Church , and are not they herein evidently Guilty of Sacrilegious usurpation , and adding to the words of the Book of God by their false consequence . Baptizing of Children or others , a standing Ordinance of Christ , which he hath appointed to continue to the end of the world , Mat. 28. and ordinary means for Salvation , Ma● . 16.16 . There be no express commands for sprinkling Infants , Act. 2.38 . repent and be baptized . Mark. 16.16 . He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved . They to whom Repentance and Faith was preached , were not Infants ( such as the Priests sprinkle of a few dayes old ) which is not the Baptisme that saveth , but that of the Spirit , or the answer of a good conscience is saving . Page . 37. That many Ministers baptize the Children of those who are prophane and drunkards , and so not believers . They that profess the Gospel , though they be not sincere believers , yet they are in this sence accounted belivers . Page . 85. The Children of believers , should be under the Initial Seal of the Covenant , to believers and their Seed that promise belongeth ; those to whom that promise , That God would be their God and the God of their Seed ; should be baptized , Viz. Infants who are in the Covenant with God. Page . 36. It seems these Priests can make believers at an easie rate , whilst they can take the prophane drunkards for believers , upon their professing the Gospel ; but surely God is not the God of the prophane and drunkards , nor are they in Gods Covenant ( as true believers are ) but under Satans power , and their taking it for granted that the sprinkling Infants is the Initial Seal of the Covenant is false , and but a beging the question . Those who are under the profession of the Gospel , are to be reputed as in Covenant . pa. 39. Unbelievers who have a profession , and yet have not sincere faith , &c. are not Righteous nor Holy , &c. Then it is not the profession of the Gospel that makes them believers or in Covenant with God. An Arminion and Popish Doctrine , that believers may fall from Grace . The Fathers , many of them fell into gross sins as is cleared from the Histories of the Books of , Exod. Lev. Num. and Deut. and , 1 Cor. 10.1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. They cat the same spiritual bread , and drank the same spiritual drink , drank of the Rock which was Christ , yet many of them were Idolaters , lusters after evil thoughts , committed Fornication , Tempters of God , Murderers , &c. See how fully these Priest have proved the falling away from Grace , for which they have so much accused us with Popery and Arminianisme ( what a Babel are they in ) and , Was not that spiritual Bread and Drink , and Rock , which they did eat and drink of saving Grace ? Baptizm ( Viz of Infants ) brought them to the Church is , an ordinary means for Salvation , pag. 37. We are baptized into Jesus Christ and his death , Rom. 6.3 . and it s Instituted for the remission of sins , Act. 2.38 . It s that which signifies our putting on Christ , our renewing by the Spirit , our washing by remission of Sins , our being buried with Christ , &c. Then it s not the Sign nor Shadow , but the Substance that brings into the true Church that saveth , that Baptizeth into Jesus Christ and his death , and this is that one Baptisme of the Spirit . Infants Baptisme or Sprinkling , approved its the Initial Seal of the Covenant , which the Children of believers ought to be under . The Apostle Peter sayes , Act. 2.38 39. That those to whom the promise is , should be Baptized , and vers 38 repent and be baptized , Mat 28. Go teach all Nations Baptizing them , Mark. 16.16 . He that , believeth and is baptized shall be saved . And , Rom. 6.3 . We are baptized into Jesus Christ and his death , pag. 37. Those that are capable of such teachings ( repenting believing ) are not Infants of a week old ; and teach baptizing into the Name of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , was by the Power and Spirit that went along with their Teaching and Mynistring . pag. 28. They have no Light in them , who speak not according to the Law and the Testimony , and tell us of a faith in Christ without the Scriptures . pag. 31. Wicked men who rebel against the Light , have the Light of a natural conscience spoken of , Rom , 2.14 . and the common work of the Spirit . The Work of the Spirit of God in the hearts of wicked men , convicting them , is not natural nor from a natural Light , for it is the Spirit that so worketh in them , ( which you call common ) but your confessing a natural Light in them , contradicts your saying they have no Light in them ; but the Law is Light , and the Testimony of Jesus the Spirit of Prophecie , which the true Prophets spake from , and they that spake not according to this Light , there is 〈◊〉 morning to them , but they are in the dark , where the Light 〈◊〉 before it shine out of darkness . Some Queries of Alexander Skein , sometime Baily of Aberdeen , upon his forsaking the publick Worship there , and joining with the People of God in scorn called Quakers . Query I WHether or not should any Act of Gods Worship be gone about without the motions , leadings and actings of the Holy Spirit . Query II If the motions of the Spirit be necessary to every particular duty , Whether should he be waited upon , that our whole acts and words may be according as he gives utterance and assistance . Query III If every one that bears the name of a Christian or professes to be Protestants , hath such a uninterupted measure thereof , that at any time they may without waiting , go immediately about the duty . Query IV If there be an indisposition and an unfitness at some times for such exercises , at least as to the spiritual and lively performance thereof ; Whether the duty ought to be performed in that case , or at that time ? Query V If any duty be gon about under pretence that it is in obedience to the external command , without the spiritual life and motion necessary ; Whether such a duty thus performed , can in faith be expected to be accepted of God , and not rather reckoned , as bringing strange fire before the Lord , seeing it is performed ( at b●st ) by the strength of natural and acquired parts , and not by the strength and assistance of the holy ghost , which was typified by 〈◊〉 Fire that came down from heaven , which alone behoved to 〈◊〉 the Sacrifice and no other ? Query VI If duties gone about in the mere strength of natural 〈…〉 parts , whether in publick or in private , be not all really 〈…〉 matter an Image of mans invention as the popish worship , ( though it be not so gross in the outward appearance ) and therefore as real superstition to countenance any worship which is of that nature , as it is to countenance popish worship , though there be a difference in the degree . Query VII Whether it be ground of offence , or just scandal to countenance the worship of those , whose professed Principle is neither to speak for edification , nor to pray , but as the holy ghost shall be pleased to assist them , in some measure less or more , without which , they will rather chuse to be silent , then to speak without his Influences ? ERRATA Pag. 10. lin . 8. for Polythrites , read Polytheites pag. 16. lin . 21. for : to : read two : pag. 18. lin . 30. for , to write read , or writ . pag. 31. lin . 9 : for , Christs , read Christ pag. 32. lin . 12. read in it , for spake , read speaks pag. 33. lin . last , for Revelation , read relation . pag. 41. lin . 20 : for imperative , read Superiour . pag. 53. lin . 14. read subjoyne . pag 56. lin . 37. for Answer , read . reply . from pages . 56. and. 66. the pages are misfigured . pag. 62. lin . 33. read Pr. An. pag. 64. lin . last , read Pr. An. pag. 72. lin . 27. not , read nor l. in . .32 for which . read , such as . p. 80. l. 9. del . which p. 81. l. 33. r. a perfect cleansing p. 82. l. 5. r. work in part . p. 83. l. 1. f. that as . r. that a. p. 84. l. 5. f. is r. Iesus . l. 33. r. your deceitful . p. 85. l. 31. del . 31. l. 30. r. p. 35. l. 37. r. and cup. p. 87. l. 5. r. such a great . l. 7. f. any r. all l. 19. r. we are not . 29. r. theire infants p. 88. l. 8. f. 85. r. 35. l. 17. f. the r. theire . 24. f. the. r. theire . 39. del . the. FINIS 
A75767	----	Davids enemies discovered. VVho of him make songs, but without the Spirit and without understanding, as the drunkard did which he declares of in Psal. 69.12. Or, a true discovery of that custome and forme which the priests of this generation would make an ordinance of, to blind the eyes of the simple, as this priest Clapham: in his 6 arguments, which is here answered, / by us who suffer for the truth, whose names according to the flesh are [brace] Christopher Atkinson. George Whitehead. Also a brief reply unto Frederick Woodall's three principles and resolves; and with replies to his answers, to several queries propounded to him, that to the simple the truth may be cleared, from one who for the captivated seeds sake suffers now in outward bonds in Norwitch Castle, whose name in the flesh is Richard Hubberthorne. Atkinson, Christopher. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A75767 of text R202144 in the English Short Title Catalog (Thomason E830_10). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 52 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 12 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A75767 Wing A4126 Thomason E830_10 ESTC R202144 99862540 99862540 168080 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A75767) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 168080) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 126:E830[10]) Davids enemies discovered. VVho of him make songs, but without the Spirit and without understanding, as the drunkard did which he declares of in Psal. 69.12. Or, a true discovery of that custome and forme which the priests of this generation would make an ordinance of, to blind the eyes of the simple, as this priest Clapham: in his 6 arguments, which is here answered, / by us who suffer for the truth, whose names according to the flesh are [brace] Christopher Atkinson. George Whitehead. Also a brief reply unto Frederick Woodall's three principles and resolves; and with replies to his answers, to several queries propounded to him, that to the simple the truth may be cleared, from one who for the captivated seeds sake suffers now in outward bonds in Norwitch Castle, whose name in the flesh is Richard Hubberthorne. Atkinson, Christopher. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. Hubberthorn, Richard, 1628-1662. [2], 21, [1] p. Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black spread-Eagle at the west end of Pauls., London. : 1655. The words "Christopher Atkinson. George Whitehead." are bracketed together on title page. A reply to: Clapham, Jonathan. A short and full vindication of that sweet and comfortable ordinance, of singing of Psalmes and an unpublished work by Frederick Woodall. Annotation on Thomason copy: "March 15", "1654"; 5 in imprint date crossed out. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Clapham, Jonathan. -- Short and full vindication of that sweet and comfortable ordinance, of singing of Psalmes -- Early works to 1800. Woodall, Frederick, b. 1614. Society of Friends -- Doctrines -- Early works to 1800. Music and morals -- Early works to 1800. A75767 R202144 (Thomason E830_10). civilwar no Davids enemies discovered.: VVho of him make songs, but without the Spirit and without understanding, as the drunkard did which he declares Atkinson, Christopher. 1655 9353 27 0 0 0 0 0 29 C The rate of 29 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-05 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2008-05 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion DAVIDS Enemies discovered . Who of him make SONGS , but without the Spirit and without understanding , as the Drunkard did which he declares of in Psal. 69. 12. OR , A TRUE DISCOVERY of that Custome and Forme which the PRIESTS of this Generation would make an Ordinance of , to blind the eyes of the simple , as this priest Clapham : in his 6 Arguments , which is here answered , by us who suffer for the Truth , whose names according to the flesh are Christopher Atkinson . George Whitehead . Also a brief REPLY unto Frederick Woodall's three Principles and Resolves ; and with Replies to his Answers , to severall Queries propounded to him , that to the simple the truth may be cleared , from one who for the Captivated seeds sake suffers now in outward bonds in Norwitch Castle , whose name in the flesh is Richard Hubberthorne . LONDON : Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black spread - 〈…〉 West end of Pauls . 1655. A Paper being brought into our hands which was given forth by one of the Priests whose name is Jonathan Clapham , who to uphold his deceit and Imaginations , and carnall observatirns , In imitation from that which the true worshippers which worshipped in spirit and truth without for me or letter witnessed , and spoke forth when redemption they did see , and so were they hid , from such as would make a Custome and a trade upon what they spoke forth , who lived the life of what they sung and spoke , ( in the spirit , ) who lived not in Custome nor in Imitation of others , neither did they boast themselves in another mans Line made ready to their hands , but as they received the spirit so walked they in the spirit , and with it they sang , and by it they spoke , and by the spirit they knew what time it did signifie , and such as was sensuall who had not the spirit but the forme , they denied and witnessed against them , and such now with the same spirit do we witness against , and to clear the truth and lay open the deceit of this generation of Priests , who make a Custome and a trade of Scriptures , who take peoples money for that which is no bread , but for dishonest gain destroyes souls , and keeps poor people in blindness and darkness , by their Inventions and vain Imaginations , that under their Dark Ministry poor people are ever learning , never able to come to the knowledge of the truth , and for their sakes who by these blind guides are led in blindness , Are we moved to answer something to this Priest Clapham's Arguments , as he calles them , that they that never saw , might see his nakedness uncovered , by which Arguments he is going about to maintain , singing of David's conditions a Custome , which are Answered as followeth , &c. SInging of Psalmes was once an Ordinance of God in the Church and a part of divine worship , and ( 1 ) was never repealed under the Gospell , ( 2 ) nor was of a Tipicall nature and use as was the ceremonies , and to cease with them , ( 3 ) but ever reckoned among morrall and perpetuall duties , as prayer , and learning the word , see Psal. 59. 1 , 2 , 6 , 7. ( 4 ) such a duty as the very light in all men taught them to practice , witness the custome of all nations , See Godwin , Rom. Antiqu. and read Homer's himnes , Horaces odes , &c. which sheweth it to be of an universall and perpetuall obligation , therefore it continues an ordinance of God still , as well as prayer and learning the word , and should not be abolished under the Gospel . They who witnesse the Gospell are come , to the ministration of the spirit which is the end of all shadowes , which shadowed forth the life , who came to witness the Church in God , 1 Thes. 1 ▪ and of this church the saints were ordained members , and this church was not a temple made with hands , where once singing was , which was to cease with its worship , and the songs of that temple was to be turned into Howling , Amos 8. 3. but they who are members of the church which is in God they sing with one spirit , being thereunto called by the Lord , which was not morall but spirituall , and they did not bring old Authors to prove their Actions by , as thou doest , but in that they worshipped which was before Authours was , and before Oxford and Cambridge was , which thou and thy generation have your Ministry f●om , and their word and Gospell was not the letter , which thou and thy generation makes a trade upon , and by the same spirit they sang by which the Gospell was preached , and there was no division , and they made not a Custome of other mens conditions , as to get them into rime and meeter and give them forth unto a company of blind people as thou and thy generation do , and their singing was with the spirit , and with understanding , which we owne , but thee we do deny and all thy generation , wo give people Davids conditions to sing in a meeter , where David did mourn and where he was afflicted ye sing , and where he quaked ▪ and trembled , and prayed , and prophesied , these ye sing , & tell God you do so , and here you make a custome like a stage play upon Davids conditions , and scoffs and scornes at them now who witnesse Quaking and trembling , and this we deny for this is both without the spirit and without understanding . The prophesies in Scripture that foretell the state of the Church in the new Testament , do speak of Psalmes to be used , there as a part of Gods worship Psal. 98. 1 , 2. Psal. 100. 1 , 2. Psal. 100. 1 , 2 , 3. where mention is made of the Gentiles , when converted , singng Psalmes to God , Rom. 15. 9. see Isa. 26. 1. and 35. 10. Rev. 14. 5. and 15. 3. The prophesies in scripture that foretell the state of the church , do not prophesie as psalmes to be used as a part of Gods worship , nor such a word there is spoken in them ▪ for the prophesies were fulfilled when the end came , and the church was the life , of that which the prophets prophesied of , which was without spot or wrinckle , and the songs of this church are everlasting , and they who are come thither can sing a new song , for the salvation , which they are witnesses of , Psal. 98. 1 , 2. and they can sing the song of redemption , and the song of Moses , and of the Lamb , which no man can learn , but they that are redeemed from the earth , and they that have the new name , Rev. 14. 3 , 4. and this song can neither thou sing , who art in the earth , and in thy earthly nature , and ministers for the earth and to the earth , in Balaams way , for gifts and rewards , nor them to whom thou gives Davids conditions , who are not brought to see the day of bitterness and lamentation which the saints did witness before they came to see salvation and redemption , for which they praysed God , which salvation and testament , to the end that generation is hid , who live in the wild , prophane , and heady nature , without the fear of God , who are in the time of wantonness and laughter , which wo is unto , Luke 6. 25. and not brought to the time of mourning , and therefore farre from the day of salvation and the saints joy , and there your singing is carnal and for condemnation and out of the true worship . It hath been a duty practised not onely in the times of the law but by the people of God under the Gospell , under the law we have the songs of Moses , Deborah , and Barack , of David the sweet singer of Israel , of Solomon , who composed to the number of 1005 songs , of Asaph , and Heman , and Habakuk , &c. Under the Gospell we read of the songs of many , Simon , Zachary : of Christ and his Apostles singing an Himne , after the Lords supper , Mat. 26. 30. according as was the custome among the Jews , who used to sing some of Davids Psalms the night wherein the passover was eaten , as those who are skilld in their Customes write : we read of Paul and Silas Acts 16. singing in prison , also of the practice of the church of Corinth , 1 Cor. 14. singing Psalms , and in primitive , before Antichristian Appostacy , which was commonly practised , as Phil. Tert. Just . Martin . Chrysost. testifie : yea the very Heathens took notice of this practice and did write of it , Pliny in his letter to Trojan the Emperour writes of the Christian Himnes , Antelucanos , morning psalms , & songs early in the morning , will I praise thee , &c. Neither Moses nor Habbakuk who was servants of God , nor any of the people of God , did ever call singing a custome or practice , neither did they ever give a company of silly blind people other mens conditions , in time and meeter to sing , but though Moses sang , yet he knew the work of the Lord in his deliverance out of Egypt , for which he praysed God , but the work of the Lord is not known to thee , and thy generation , who draw people from the Light of Christ within , and calls it naturall , which doth enlighten every one that comes into the world , and this is that which brings to witness their conditions who spoke forth Scripture ; and this is it which brings to witness salvation and redemption wherein the saints rejoyce , and thou that calls this naturall , doest not know the work of the Lord , nor his redemption , and there thy singing is without understanding , and thou knowes for not what thou sings , nor they that spook the scriptures did never compell a company of poor people who are dead in trespasses and sins to observe duties or outward observations , as thou doest , but saith Christ , my kingdome comes not by observations , but my kingdome is within , Luke 17. 21. neither did ever any of the holy men of God go and hire with a people at such a place and toke such a sum of money of them , for preaching , neither did they go to a company of blind people , and give them Davids conditions to sing in meeter as thou and thy generation do , who say , Let us sing to the praise and glory of God , O Lord I am not pufft in mind , I have no scornfull eye , when thy are pufft in mind and scorns them that are brought to witness Davids and Habbakuks condition , as quaking and trembling , Hab. 3. 16. Psal. 2. 11. Jer. 5. 22. and in scorn calls them Quakers ; and they that sang after the Lords suppers , did not call a little bread and wine the Lords supper or a Sacrament as thou doest , which thou hast no scripture for , and the Lords supper thou art not come to , who act such things , nor the bread of life didst thou ever tast of , but thy singing and prayers and prayses is in the death ; and them thou bids sing to the prayse and glory of God , who are dead in trespasses and sins , when the dead cannot prayse God , but the living , neither can they that go down into the pit prayse him , for praises are not comely in the mouth of the wicked , and there thou art . and Egypt is thy figure , a Land of darknesse where Pharaoh rules , and Moses thou art not come to , and how can thou sing Moses song who art yet in Egypt ? but death rules in thee , which hath passed over all men , from Adam untill Moses : and to maintain thy singing thou brings dead men as Pliny , and other heathens like thy self , who knowes not God nor his worship , but would rest and pervert the scriptures to maintain thee in thy Customs and outward observations , which thou hast no scripture for , and makes a custome and trade of other mens conditions which thou hast nothing to do with , as to cause people to sing lyes , as when David roared they sing , and where he trembled they sing , and where he saith , he watered his couch with tears they sing , and say they do so , and there thou art a leader that causes people to erre . If this suffice not , know there is expresse scripture command as well as examples and prophesies , for this duty of singing of Psalms , and that not only in the old , but also in the new Testament , Ephes. 5. 18 , 19. where the Apostle alluding to the Custome that drunkards have when they are filled with wine , they have their songs , so when Christians are filled with the wine of the spirit they should have their Psalmes Himnes and spirituall songs : the Hebrews had 3 words whereby they divided Davids Psalms , shurim , tehillim , mismorem , to which three words here used by the Apostle , Psalmes , himnes , and spirituall songs , as we see Col. 3. 16. admonishing one another in Psalms , and so James 5. 13. If any be afflicted , let him pray , if any be merry let him sing Psalmes ; it s spoken generally , if any , or whosoever is merry let him sing , not that it is unlawfull to sing at other times , for then it might be inferred it s not lawfull to pray , but when one is sad , mirth is the most prayer season , in other places we read of singing when sad , as David often , and Christ a little before his suffering , when his heart was sorrowfull , and and Silas in prison Paul : Thus you have express command for this duty . The Apostle , nor any of the holy men of God did ever command the world , as thou doest , to sing Psalmes , neither did he ever give the world an example to make rimes of other mens conditions , and sing them in meeter , and though the Apostle saith to the Ephesians , speaking to your selves in Psalmes and Himnes and spirituall songs , singing and making mellody in your hearts to the Lord , and such like to the Colossians , yet this was not to the world , but to the saints and faithfull Brethren , Coll. 1. 2. neither did the Apostle bid the saints sing other mens prayers , and cryes , and complaints , and lamentations , as thou and thy generation do , who bid people sing to the prayse and glory of God , where David said , thine arrows stick fast in me , neither is there any rest in my bones , my wounds stink and are corrupt , I am troubled , I am bowed down greatly , I go mourning all the day long , Psal. 38. and this you have gotten into a rime and meeter , and bids people sing : and there you make a sport of Davids conditions , and makes people say they are so , in which conditions David never sang , but as he found deliverance from under the wrath of God , and when ever did thou or any of thy generation witness these conditions which David passed through , before the seed was brought forth : here thou Priest Clapham hast shut thy self both out of the Scriptures , and them that spoke them forth . And whereas thou saist , that the Apostle alluding to the custome of drunkards ; here again we charge thee Priest ( Clapham ) to be a lyar , ond a wrester of Scriptures , for the Apostle never spoke such a wo●d , as alluding to the Custome of drunkards ; here this thy Comparison is unequall , to compare the saints singing to the Custome of Drunkards , neither did ever the Saints cal● singing a Custome , or make a custome of it , as thou art going about to maintain , and whereas thou art going about to devide the Psalmes , as thou calls them , by these three Hebrew words , into Psalmes , Himnes , and spirituall songs , Here , thou art ignorant both of Psalmes , Himnes , and spirituall Songs , who art going about to divide Psalmes by thy confusion oftongues , and here thou art in Babell which God confounded into many languages , and there is thy ministry in thy confusion and Languages , which a natural man may learn , and there thy singing is in the Custome without the spirit . But they that knew ▪ how to sing with understanding , did sing with that which was before Babell was , and before thy confusion was , and before Sternhold , and Hopkins rimes , which they made of David , which thou practises ; and they that would sing a new song , was redeemed out of kindreds tongues and people , Rev. 5. 9. and this redemnption thou that livest in thy tongues and naturall languages , art not come to ; and the new Song and Himnes thou art ignorant of ; and whereas thou sayest that which James spoke was generally , there thou art a lyar and a wrester of scripture , for the Scriptu●e saith , is any among you affl●cted , let him pray , is any among you merry , let him sing ; but this was to the 12 Tribes , James 1. which he calls his Brethren , and that was among them , and not among thy generation , who live in Formes and Customes , who are strangers to the life of God : and again , thou art going to make the Apostle James a Lyar like thy self , who sayest , that mirth is the most prayer season , when as that Scripture saith , is any among you merry , let him sing ; is any afflicted , let him pray ; which is quite contrary to thy words . As for Paul and Silas singing in prison , their sufferings and imprisonments thou never yet was made partaker of , nor their joy thou never knew wherein it was , who art going about to maintain thy customes in the world , which thou hast no scripture for , but with it art disapproved , and with the the light thou art seen , to be a stranger both to the Saints joy and that wherein they rejoyced . There are severall rules given in the New Testament , directing how to sing aright , as 1 Cor. 14. with the spirit and with understanding , with grace in our hearts Col. 3. which directions were needless if it were no Gospell duty . They that are brought to sing with the Spirit and understanding , they witness that life which spoke forth Scripture , and need not go and get other mens conditions made like ballades or songs , and sing them , or cause any in a custome to sing them , as thou dost in a steeple-house , and these do not call the letter the rule , and the 4 books Mathew , Mark , Luke , and John the New Testament , and Gospell as thou and thy generation do , for Paul said he was a minister of the Gospel , and of the New Testament , and not of the letter , which thou calls the Gospell and New Testament , 2 Cor. 3. 6. and there both out of the Gospell and new Testament thou art shut , and thy Ministery is in the Letter which killeth , and thy Inventions and reasons and consequencies adds to it , and that thou makes a trade upon , and for it thou takes peoples money , and there with the light we read thee in the Scriptures , to be among them the true prophets Christ and his Apostles cryed wo against , such as seek for their gain from their quarter , Isa. 56. and such as are hirelings , Micah 3. and such as are called of men Masters , stands praying in the synagogues , having the chiefest places in the assemblies , and the uppermost rooms at feasts , and the greetings in Markets , which Christ cryed wo against , Mat. 23. and such as go in the way of Cain to envy , and after the errour of Balaam , for gifts and rewards which Peter and Jude cryed wo against , 2 Pet. 2. Jude 11. and there thou art , and thee , thy Ministry , and thy singing we utterly deny , who art both shut out of the Scripture among the greedy doggs , and that life which spoke them forth , and thou seen to be among them , the Scripture witnesses against . And whereas in thy 6th . Argument thou sayest , that Christians may reap much profit or benefit by the right using of this ordinance , there 's an efficacy in it , to lift up the heart more and elevate it in Gods praises , and holy delight it brings to the soul therein , and art telling of mutuall edification and provocation to rejoyce in God , as drunkards by their songs stirre up carnall and sinfull mirth , so these help spirituall joy . They that are Christians do see thy blindness and ignorance both of scriptures and that which spoke it forth , and Christians have not their joy to fetch out of other mens conditions , neither do they go to without , and yet Davids prayers , prayses , prophesies , cryings , tears , wastings , afflictions ; in meeter to sing , to bring delight unto their soul , as thou art going about to maintain , there thou blind guide thou dost not know what it is that rejoyces in God , nor what it is that prayses him , for to thee it is hid , who makes a trade and Custome of a dead Forme , and causes the dead to sing which cannot prayse God , and there in the mutuall and changeable state thou art in thy carnall inventions with Tubal-Cain the Inventor , and outward observations , and edification thou art not come to , who to uphold thy carnall singing and rejoycing doest bring a Comparison of the songs of drunkards , which the saints never did , here thee , thy singing ; thy Joy and thy Ministry are shut out among the drunkards , and seed of evill doers and there is the fruits of thy Ministry , and of that sort are they that uphold thee , and speaks well of thee , as they did thy fathers the false prophets , and among the false prophets and deceivers thou art with the Light seen and Judged , and the same wo which was to them is to thee now , who art found in their stepps . Here ( Priest Clapham ) thy Arguments are answered , and the rest of thy rotten stuff which is not worth mentioning , with them comprehended , and seen with the light to be all acted , in thy filthy reason and Inventions , which are stuffed up with so many lies and wresting Scriptures as thou art here disproved in . So let shame cover thy face , and deceive people no longer with thy dreames and lying divinations , and customes , and outward observations which thou hast no scripture for , which here is plainly laid open to them who are not altogether blind , therefore make no more Merchandise of peole through thy covetousnesse , nor take peoples mony any more to maintain thee in thy deceits and filthiness , but make restitution to them whom thou hast deceived , and led in blindness , and give them their money again , which dishonestly thou hast taken upon them , of whom thou hast made Merchandize : for the sword of the Lord is drawn against thee , and that generation thou art in , and wo and misery is the end of your songs , and your joy , and your profession of God and Christ , who are found acting those things , he and all the holy men of God witnessed against : The day of your trouble and torment and misery is coming upon you , Wo , wo to you pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture , saith the Lord : wo to you hippocrites and dissemblers who are acting in their stepps , the prophets , Christ and his appostles witnessed against , and are filling up the measure of your fathers Iniquities ; ye false prophets , and scribes , and pharisees , therefore stop your mouthes in the dust , and never say you are Ministers of Christ , and his Embassadours , for your bottome and foundation is seen and tryed , and your Customes , traditions , and practises are with the light condemned , and humane is all your worship there , who draw near unto God with your mouthes and lipps , and your hearts farre from him , every ones heart after his own gain and filthy lucre , who teach for doctrines the traditions of men , and there you keep poor people in blindnesse , and makes a prey upon them , and tell them of outward ordinances , and duties , and customes , as this Priest Clapham , wherein he is disapproved in his Arguments , and his folly made manifest , and so shall all yours who are of his generation , who live in pride and covetousness , and act those things ye have no scripture for , who lead captive silly women laden with sins and iniquities , led away with divers lusts , everlearning , never able to come to the knowledge of the truth ; but you shall proceed no further , for your folly shall be made manifest to all men . From us who are sufferers for the testimony of Jesus , whose names according to the flesh is Christopher Atkinson . George Whitehead . Something in answer to the High Priest's Paper , wherein he layes down 3 Principles , and severall Resolves , as he calls them , wherein he goes about to resolve people that the light of Christ in the conscience , and that which doth enlighten every one that comes into the world , which light is Christ , is natural ; and so to resolve them , that Johns testimony of Christ is not true , as it is written in John 1. 9. and doth deny Christs words to be true , who saith , he is the Light of the world , John 8. 12. John 3. 19 , 20 , 21. and in John 12. 46. But in the light of Christ he is seen and comprehended , yea the depth of his subtlety , and confusion , is here unfolded , and his Paper answered from the light of Christ , which he calls naturall ; but by it he is proved to be naturall , and not to discern the things of God , though he pronfesse himself to be a Minister : but here his works are brought to the light , and he by it is proved to be no Minister of Ghrist , but a hater of the light , as John 3. 19 , 20 , 21. The Priests 1 Principle . THere are two Adams from whom all men are , out of whose Loynes all men do come : the 1 Adam is a Fountain of all Naturall good ; the 2 of that which is Spirituall ; and thou brings Scripture to prove it , 1 Cor. 15. 2 , 22. Ephes. 5. 30. Gen. 2. 33. 1 Cor. 15. 45 , 46. Answer . Art thou a teacher in England , and is this the principles of thy doctrine , to teach people that all men come out of the Loynes of the 2 Adams , without distinction , and that the first Adam is the fountain of all naturall good ? here in the presence of the Living God I declare thee and thy principle to be false , for the first man is of the earth earthly ; the second is the Lord from heaven , from whom is the fountain of all good : out of the loyns of the first thou proceeds , but not from the second ; and thy principle proceeds from thy ear●hly wisdome , which is in the fall , and cursed ; and here again thou may read thy principle with shame and confusion of face , and repent before the Lord cut thee off , as a deceiver , who teaches for doctrine thy one conditions . The Priests 2 Principall . In thy second Principall thou speaks of two seeds , and that the first Adam was not the looser of mankind but his seed ; and the 2 Adam was not the restorer of mankind , as so , but as his seed . Answer . I answer , here thou art twining like the serpent , to blind the eyes of people with thy lyes , and doth cross the Scripture , which thou thy selfe brings in the former principle , 1 Cor. 15. 22. which saith , as in Adam all dy , so in Christ shall all be made alive ; and here thou denies Christ to be the restorer of mankind , and here thou art dark and blind , and preaches and writes against the end for which Christ came into the world ; but restauration by Christ we do witnesse and life from the dead , and the seed of the promise we witness , brought out of captivity by Christ , and all who come to witness the same shall deny thee who denies Christ to be the restorer of mankinde . The Priests 3 Principall . In thy third Principall thou sayest , the grace of life none is partaker of but the seed . Answer . Here thou crossest the Scriptures , which saith , the grace of God which brings salvation hath appeared unto all men , and some turn his grace into wantonness , and walke despitefully against the spirit of grace , Titus 2 12. and that is not the seed which turns it into wantonness , and walkes deceitfully against it , for that is the seed which by grace is taught to deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts , but it hath appeared to those who abuse it , as thou dost who put forth these principles , and here thy principles is found lies , as thy Resolves are , which follow thy Principles : The Priests Resolves . Now to resolve people that the light of Christ in the conscience is a naturall light , thou sayest , that the writing upon the heart of Gentiles is not new Covenant written , but old ; so not of grace and Life but nature . Answer . I answer , here thou resolves them falsely , for the workes of the Law being written in their hearts , this is not naturall , which doth bear witness in the conscience , and either accuse or excuse , but is one in the covenant , spoken of in Jer. 31. 33. Heb. 8. 2. and here thou puts in Light for darknesse , and darkness for light . Priest . Again thou speaks of two Images , the Image of God , and Image of Christ , and saith something of the Image of God remains after the fall , and brings Cer. 6. 9. to witness it , when as there is no such thing spoken of there , and thou sayest nothing of the Image of Christ , is found before calling . Answer . Here thou would make God and Christ two images , and so utters forth one lye after another , and denies the Scripture , which saith he , is the express Image of the Father , and thou sayest the first Image is naturall , the second is spirituall , and here let all behold thy blasphemy who would make the Image of God naturall , and the Image of Christ spirituall , and calls them two Images : stop thy mouth , and be ashamed for ever , for being a Teacher , who seeks to resolve people of such things as to deny God and Christ , and make them two Images , the one naturall , and the other spirituall , and saith , something of the image of God is found in man after the fall ▪ but nothing of the Image of Christ ▪ O blinde guide , that ever England should be deceived by such , but the Lord is now making you manifest , and in the light thou art comprehended , and thy subtlety is seen ▪ and thou art now met withall , who hath long blinded the eyes of poor people with thy fained words and subtle pretences , but here thou art discovered to be an enemy to that which in word thou professes , and so thy words will cover thee no longer , for the life hath found thee out ▪ and by it thy spirit is tryed to be the spirit of errour , and voice to be the voice a stranger . Priest . Again thou speaks of a naturall light , and sayes , naturall Light puffs up , and quotes 1 Cor. 8. 1●2 . Answer . Here out of thy own mouth thou art proved to be a perverter of the scriptures , for that scripture saith , knowledge puffs up : but the Scripture speaks of no naturall light . Priest . Again thou sayst , naturall light discovers the blessing of the first Covenant . Answer . This is false , for all the blessings is to the seed which is in the Covenant , and is the Covenant , but nature is out of the Covenant , and out of the blessing of all thy resolves , and light is contrary to nature , for light is spirituall , but thou art naturall , who saith , the light is naturall . Priest . Again thou sayest , naturall light may convince of evill . Answer . This is false , and here thou art a Blasphemer to call Christ naturall , for it is Christ that convinceth the world of sin , and the light which Christ Jesus hath enlighted every one , with all which convinceth them of evill , and thou that sayest this is naturall , did never yet owne that which doth convince of sin , the Light , which will condemn thee who hates it , and calls it naturall ▪ A Reply to the Priests Answers , to the Queries propounded to him . The 1 Querie . How is Christ the light of the world , and how doth he enlighten every one that comes into the world , if it be not in the Conscience ? John 1. 9. Priests Answer . Jesus Christ enlighteneth every man , with the light he hath , he is indeed the enlightening light , and not John : but it will not prove , because Christ quickeneth , that therefore with the same life , or there is no naturall life for Christ : Saints light is the light of life , sinners , not so , not their life . Reply . In the light of Christ thou art seen and comprehended , for thy dark words cannot hide thy confusion , who in thy answer saith , Christ doth enlighten every man that comes into the world , and then would make the light of Christ which enlightens the sinner , not to be the same light which is in the saints , and here all who ownes light in any measure , may see thy confusion , for the light of Christ is but one , and it is through the obedience to the light , in which they come to witness sanctification from sin , which now many do witness to the praise and glory of God , who is their teacher , what hast thou ( Frederick Woodall ) taught the people , all this while ? who art a blind guide , for he that knowes not the light of Christ is blind , for darkness hath blinded his eyes . The 2 Querie . How doth the spirit of Christ guide unto all truth , and shew things to come , if it be not within the conscience . Priests Answer . This endeavours the removall of the Ancient Bonds , making common the priviledges of the Saints , and brings that Scripture , Jer. 24. 7. Reply . This Scripture Jer. 24. 7. shall stand to bear witness against thy self where the Lord saith , I will give them an heart to know me , that I am the Lord , and they shall be my people , and I will be their God ; and the promise of Christ wherein he hath promised the spirit to guide them into all truth , and to shew them things to come , and this thou sayest endeavours the removing of the Ancient bonds ; I answer , It is to remove all such doctrine and such teaching as thine , and the priests of the world under which the seed of God is kept in bondage , and under the chains of darknesse , and these thy bonds which thou layest upon the seed is as Ancient as since the fall , and hath kept people ever learning and never brought them to the knowledge of God , and now when God hath promised to give them an heart to know him without such teachers as thou art , and this is thy torment , but let this tormen thee for ever till thy mouth be stopped , for it is so , we witnesse it . The 3 Query . How doth the spirit of Christ reprove the world of sin , of righteousness , and of judgement , if it be not in thy conscience . Priests Answer . It is not the spirit in the world that reproves the world of sin , John 14. 17. but the spirit in the saints who are to Judge the world , 1 Corinth . 6. 2. the spirit in the saints by the light of truth . Reply . This thy answer , and these Scriptures do witness against thy self , and here thou art made to confess the truth , out of thy own mouth thou may be judged , as all who hate the light are , and here by the spirit of God in the saints and the light of truth art thou judged , and here if thou wilt owne thy own words , owne thy Judgement , for the saints do now judge the world , under which judgement thou art . The 4 Querie . How are the children of God taught of God , if it be not by the light of God in the conscience ? Priests Answer . This is absurd , as the second , this is the strength , you shall be all taught of God . Reply . It is thou that art dark , and blind , and obsurd , who would keep the people from the teachings of God , calling that absurd , that thy own teaching might be continued , and people be kept still in ignorance , and give thee money for such teaching , but the free teachings of God is now appearing , and thine must be denied which is not free . The 5 Querie . How can that be said to be a naturall light which witnesses unto God in that which is holy , and against the naturall Inclinations of fallen man , seing the scripture saith , the naturall man receives not the things of the spirit of God , 1 Cor. 2. 14. Priests Answer . How can it be any other then a naturall light which witnesses unto God in that which is holly ? and against the things of the spirit of God , naturall things it can discern , not spirituall , for as the man so is the light . Reply . Where did thou ever read of a naturall light which did witnesse unto God in that which is holy , and that which did witness unto God , where dost thou prove that ever the same witness which did witness God in holiness did ever witness against the spirit of God , read thy confesion , and let thy mouth be stopped , who speakes of a naturall light , and of a naturall holiness , which neither of them is mentioned in the scripture , nor from any of the ministers of Christ , therefore from them all art thou shut out , who art in a naturall darkness . The 6 Querie . In this Query thou being required to prove how thou dost distinguish of a naturall light , which thou so much speaks of ▪ by their severall operations . Priests Answer . The diversity of operations are answered above . Reply . Here I witness against thee , for thou hast not proved in all that which is above written that there is two lights , naturall , and spirituall , for the light is but one , in which thy confusion is seen and judged . The 7 Querie . How is Christ given a light to the Gentiles who had not the letter , and whether that was not the Light of Christ which shewed the Gentiles the law of God written in their hearts , who had not the law without , and in which they did the things contained in the law , Rom. 2. 14 , 15. Priests Answer . Thou saist this proves not Christ to enlighten the Gentiles . Reply . Thy answer is false , for herein is proved that the obedience of the Gentiles to that which was written in their hearts , in answering the law of God , and his commands , was from that which is invisible , which is the light of Christ ; for that which is naturall is visible , and there thou art in the visible , and in the naturall , where the things of God is not received but stumbled at . The 8 Querie . If it be a naturall light which checks and beares rule in the Conscience , then is not Christ alone Judge in the Conscience , but another ruler is set up before Christ come , 1 John 5. 22. Ephes. 2. 14. Priests Answer . In thy answer thou queries whether the checks was in Adam , from the light , before Christ was revealed , and then again thou sayest in the next words following , that the checks of light from Christ the old Adam had . Reply . Here thou askest a question , and gives the answer thy self , to thy own confusion , and again thou sayest , that the old Adam had a conscience before the new was promised , and that his seed hath so : I answer , Christ which is the light , which checks for sin in the conscience was before Adam was , or the seed of Adam , which was Cain ; of which generation thou and thy ministry is , and the light which is from the second Adam is now appeared to make all such as thou art manifest who are of the seed of the first Adam . The 9 Question . If that which excuseth or accuseth , and so is Judge of the Conscience , be a naturall light , then all Judgement is not given to the Son : but you set up a Jugde in the Conscience before Christ . Priests Answer . This Querie is but the eighth repeated , adding to the number , not to the weight . Reply . This light of Christ being to thee a stumbling block , and thou being ignorant of its checks in the conscience , art able to give no answer to it ; but such as are serviceable to lay open thy weakness and nakedness to all , who shall read thy Answers , or the Replyes unto them . The 10 Querie . If that be a naturall light which excuseth , and so gives peace in the conscience , then you set up a peace before Christ come , and here you deny him to be the Prince of peace , Matthew 2 ▪ 6. Priests Answer . It s intollerable that Christ should be the Prince of peace . Reply . Here let all take notice that thou plainly denies Christ to be the Prince of peace , but it is well that thou hast uttered forth thy folly which hath so long been hid , and here thou speaks plainly thy own condition , for no peace hath ever Christ spoken unto thee , and therefore thou deniest him to be the prince of peace , but him we do witness , to be so , and thee to be among the wicked , whom my God faith there is no peace unto . The 11 Querie . If that be a naturall light which shews the way towards God in the Conscience , and reproves , the untoward wayes , then is not Christ the way to the Father , but you set up another way before him , John 14 ▪ 6. Priests Answer . The sence of this Querie is hidden from me . Reply . Here in the Light thou art comprehended , and thy wisdome shout out , and thy sences darkened , and thou art one of them whom God hath hid these things from , and now stumbles , because thou hates the light which doth discover the way unto God , which light is Christ , who is the way , but is hid from those whose eyes are blinded by the God of the world : if thou hadst confessed this in the beginning of thy Paper , that the sense of all these things which here from the light is spoken is bidden from thee , and so have beed silent , then thy confusion in thy Principles , and in thy Resolves , and in thy Answers had not been so publickly made manifest as they now are , from the light which hath comprehended thee : and hidden the sence of these things from thee . The 12 Querie . If that by which men shall be judged and condemned by any outward teaching from the Letter , or by man , then by what was the Gentiles condemned who had not the Letter , outward teaching , and yet was to perish , nor doing the things contained in the Law , Rom. 2. 13 , 14. Priests answer . In this thy answer thou confessest the Gentiles shall be judged by the Law written in their hearts without the written Law , and before in all which thou hast writ thon hast writ that this was a naturall light which Judges and condemns the disobedient to the righteous law of God , and thou saiest thus saith the Lord by my heart , Scrpture may try every voice . Reply . Thou art the false prophet , which saith , the Lord saith , when as he hath never spoken this unto thy heart , but by the Spirit of the Lord in those whom he hath spoken unto , is thy voice and thy spirit tryed , and as thou sayest would make the Scriptures unnecessary , this is false , for they are of use and necessary to reprove thy deceit , and them we do witness , in the life of the spirit which gave them forth . The 13 Querie . If there be something in the creature naturally which is light , then how is it that the Scripture concludes all to be children of darkness , who are in their naturall estate , and how is Christ said to be light to them that sit in darknesse ? Priests Answer . Light and darkness , naturall light , full of the wisdome of this world , but spirituall darknesse . Reply . How darest thou profess thy self to be a Minister of Christ , and calls the light of Christ naturall , and darkness spirituall , and here let all read thee , to be he which puts darkness for Light , and Light for darkness ▪ The 14 Querie . Whether there be any other thing that convinceth of unbelief , but that which convinceth of sin in the conscience ▪ seing Christ saith , he shall convince the world of sin , because they believe not in him ? John 16. 8 , 9. Ephes. 5. 13 , 14. Priests Answer . The 14th . is the same with the 13th . answered there . Reply . Here let all see whether these 2 Queries be one , and let them read thy answer to them both , which is saying that the light in the conscience is naturall and darkness spirituall . The 15 Querie . Whether do you find any Scripture that speaks of any Light that convinceth the conscience , but the light of Christ with the Law of God written in the heart . Priests Answer . I say , all are not convinced , nor will not , till Christ come , Jud ▪ 15. Reply . Here thou art the Antichrist which denies Christ come in the flesh , and would make people believe that Enocks Prophesie is not yet fulfilled , which Jude did witness to be fulfilled , as Jude 15. and did witness Christ Jesus to be come , who fulfilled the Law and the Prophets ; and John did witness that Christ was come to convince the world of sin , of righteousness , and judgement , and John in his Epistle did write , that he which did not confess Jesus Christ come in the flesh was an Antichrist , and we do witness the same , and there thou may read thy self , 1 John 4. 3. The 16 Querie . Whether it be not the Light of Christ which bears witness in thy conscience against all evil , and if it be not the Light of Christ , then man is not wholly fallen , but there is something in man Good before Christ come . Priests Answer . I say double there was something good in man remaining after the fall . Reply . If so , that something good in man after the fall ; whether is that good naturall , or spirituall , and whether is not that estate of man which is in the fall naturall , and so prove this from the Scripture , what it is that was not lost in mans fall which need no Christ to save : for Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost . And now to thee Frederick Woodall ; Here thy confused Paper is answered in plainness , and art not flattered , for I love not to give flattering Titles to any , neither can I have any mans person in admiration for advantage . From a servant of the Lord , though counted a Deceiver by the generation of Priests , yet true ; whose Name according to the shesh , is RICHARD HUBBERTHORNE , Prisoner of the Lord in Norwich Castle : The 20 day of the 12 Moneth . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A75767e-200 2 Cor. 10. 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. 2 Tim. 3. ● . Jude 19. Priest . Argument 1. Answer . Priest . Arg. 2. Answer . Priest . Arg. 3. Answer . John 1. 9. Acts 4. 12. 1 Cor. 2. 14. and chap. 1. ●● . Isa. 42. 6. Ephes. 2. 1. 1 Cor. 4. 20. Heb. 11. 36. to the end . Col. 2 14 , 16 , 20 , 21 , 22. Ps●l . 119. 175. Isa. 38. 19. Priest . Arg. 4. Answer . Priest . Arg. 5. Answer . Priest . Argument 6. Answer to the 6th . and last Argument . Luke 6. 26. 1 John 4 , 5. See Isa. 56. 10 , 11. Jer. 5. 31. Micah . 3. 11. Matth. 23. Jude 11. Isa. 29. 13. Col. 2. 14 , 16 , 20 , 21 , 22. 2 Tim. 3. 2● 7 , 9. 
A65896	----	The way of life and perfection livingly demonstrated in some serious animadversions or remarks and answers upon the book entituled The middle way of perfection, with indifferency between the orthodox and the Quaker, herein considered, and the naked truth as it is in Christ Jesus, opened in real love to the souls of men / by George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1676 Approx. 127 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 30 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65896 Wing W1973 ESTC R20758 12294061 ocm 12294061 58973 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . 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Christian life -- Quaker authors -- Early works to 1800. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-02 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-04 Olivia Bottum Sampled and proofread 2005-04 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Way of Life AND PERFECTION Livingly Demonstrated IN Some serious Animadversions , or Remarks and Answers upon the Book ENTITULED The middle VVay of Perfection , with Indifferency between the Orthodox and the Quaker . Herein considered , and the naked Truth as it is in Christ Jesus , opened in real Love to the Souls of men By George Whitehead . Let your Moderation appear unto all Men , Doing nothing by Partiality . Printed in the Year 1676. Friendly Reader , THE Publication of this ensuing Treatise , is from a Necessity that came upon me for the holy Truth sake , to remove Occasions of stumblings out of the Way of the simple , and honest minded Inquirers after the Way of the Lord , which is perfect , so that although , by Reason of other weighty Concernments ( the Press being also clogged with other Books ) this hath lain by in Manuscript above a Year after it was finished , being written at sundry Oportunities , when I could find some spare time , yet I could not be clear in Conscience , that my Labour in it should so remain obscure , or the Service frustrated , which I hope it may be of to such serious and unprejudiced Readers , as desire after the Knowledge of the Truth , as i● is in Chrst Jesus , which is the Aim and End of my Labours and Travails ; I could have been content only to have sent a Copy of this Treatise unto the Author of the Book stiled The Middle Way of Perfection , if that would have cleared Truth from his Mistake , and removed the Burden off me ; but that could not be sufficient , in regard his Book was so publick ; and if he come seriously to consider , and see wherein he hath been mistaken , and misrepresented us , called Quakers ( especially in the latter Part of his Book ) it is to be hoped , that out of a Respect to that Christianity , Justice and Moderation , professed by him , he will as publickly do us Right , in retracting his Mistakes , and Misconstruction put upon us , as to some Things of weight and moment , which in this Treatise are seriously ( and from a Sense of the Foundation of God ) spoken to , and opened in Love both to this Man's Soul , and the Souls of all who desire true Information in these weighty Matters of Salvation , herein treated on . London the 12th . of the 12th . Moneth 1675. G. W. THE CONTENTS Sect. I. OF Justification from the Charge of the Law , and the Charge of the Gospel ; how far it extends ; and our Evangelical Obedience of absolute Necessity , page 10. Sect. II. Of Perfection being our Duty ; and how attainable , confessed by this Moderator or midle-man , pag. 12. Sect. III. Some Objections alledged by him against the attaining to Perfection , answered , pag. 17. Sect. IV. His Objection against sinless Perfection , for sinful Imperfection in this Life , proceeds from his wanting the true Sight of that Seed and Nature wherein is Victory and Perfection , pag. 19. Sect. V. His Alleganiots for Sin from these Scriptures ( viz. There is no Man that sinneth not ; not a just Man upon Earth that doth good and sinneth not ; No more I that sinneth ; but Sin that dwelleth in me ; in many Things we offend all ; if we say , that we have no Sin , &c. ) considered and answered , pag. 21. Sect. VI. Of Regeneration , the two contrary Principles , and concerning the Phrases [ Whatsoever is born of God ] and [ Whosoever is born of God , &c. ] pag. 23. Sect. VII . The Law of Grace , Condition of Life and greater Commandments being performed , sincere Obedience in lesser things may not be omitted , pag. 25. Sect. VIII . The calm Protestants in granting a Real and True Righteousness , and that which is perfect and entire , according to the Covenant ( or Law ) of Grace , do assent to the Quakers Doctrine of Perfection , pag. 28. Sect. IX . The Performance of the Condition , or Covenant of Grace , and David's Perfection , or being found a Man after God's own Heart , not concerned in a sinful State , nor consistant with the Breach of Duty , and of Sin unto Death , pag. 30. Sect. X. That Heaven wherein Unrighteousness dwells , is not the New Heaven ; of the new Law and Spirit 's Assistance to the Performance of Imputation ; being crucified with Christ , Children of God , &c. pag. 33. Sect. XI . Of Repentance , what real , and what not ; of Christ , as Propitiation ; some Scriptures perverted for Sin , by our Moderator ; of God's entering into Judgement . &c. pag. 36. Sect. XII . Of Justification , Grace , Law of our Creation , Redemption , as in Christ , and as in us , as universal , and as peculiar , the Quakers opinion about Perfection misconstrued , pag. 39. Sect. XIII . That those called Divines who deny Christ's Universal Grace and Redemption , are stumbling in the dark , and not orthodox ; of God's Terms , and Man's Terms ; of Faith , Repentance , sinning and not sinning , &c. pag. 42. Sect. XIV . That the Quakers have the Divines on the blind Side ; that the orthodox are quite out about Justification , &c. confessed , pag. 44. Sect. XV. The Spirit 's Help to that Perfection , which is the keeping the Commandments , or Perfection obtained in and by the Spirit and spiritual Birth , and not by the Flesh in the Letter , pag. 47. Sect. XVI . The Charge of bolstering up Men in their Sins justified , against the pretended Divines , who oppose Perfection , and they not at all cleared by this Advocate , pag. 49. Sect. XVII . His pretended Discovery of several Inconveniencies of our Doctrine , as the hurling Men into Despair , casting off God's Care , &c. no real or true Discovery , but the Consequences of his own and his Divines Doctrine for Imperfection , so much confuted by himself ; the State of the most mortified on E●rth , not consistant with Sin ; his reiterated Mistake against us , pag. 53. Sect. XVIII . His most dreadful Consequence and Conclusion of our Doctrine ( viz. of Evils secret , and deadly to the Soul , Contempt of most serious holy Professors , monstrous overweening Conceit of a Man's self , despising and setting at nought of others ) turned into a groundless Fear , and proved inconsequent ; and his pretended Danger and Fear , that it cannot consist with the Grace of God , &c. proved altogether causeless , and groundless , pag. 56. THE WAY of LIFE AND PERFECTION Experimntally Demonstrated , &c. WE must confess that the Author's Proposition near his Beginning , is very moderate , ( viz. ) As the best Physitians have been noted , sometimes to take very great Regard to the ordinary Receipts of old Women , and the meanest Persons ; so will it become the M●dest Divine to endeavour rather , to discover and sift out that Truth , which lies in his Adversaryes Meaning , then to expose and shame their Opinions . As also , that in the first Part of his Book there are divers Truths contained , in which he hath exprest more Modesty and Candor , then in the latter Part , and because there appears not that universal Consistency in his Work , which the profest Indifferency or Impartiality should have produced , I therefore propose this Method in my Observations and Remarks upon them viz. 1 st . To take Notice of those Truths in his first Part , together with some Variations therefrom , as I find them . 2 dly . To consider , whether his Reflections upon us are consistant therewith , as touching our Principles . Sect. I. As touching Justification he saith , viz. To avoid needless Difference with Brethren , I must distinguish Justification ; Justification we agree to be a forensical Act , opposed to the laying any Thing to a Man's Charge , whereby he may be condemned , who shall lay any Thing to the Charge of God's Elect ? it is God that justifieth ; now there is a Double Charge , the Charge of the Law , that we are Sinners , and so condemnable for violating of it , and the Charge of the Gospel , that we have not performed the remedying Condition which God requires of us , for the escaping of that Condemnation . And also he farther explains . There is a farther Justification in regard to a particular Charge of the one , or an universal Justification against all Accusations , or the Charge of both , as we must answer to the Charge of the Gospel by denying that Charge , and pleading our Performance , we answer the Charge of the Law , by confessing it and pleading Christ's Satisfaction . Our Faith aud Repentance is our Righteousness , in Regard to the Gospel , but Pardon of Sin together with this Righteousness may go both into universal Justification . And that , God justifying us by this Righteousness , that is by Faith or Evangelical Obedience , without the Works of the Law , and that pardoning us as the Effect of that Act , may both make up the Compositum of Vniversal Just●fication ; you see how tender I am of persisting in any Mistake , wherein I have or may prejudice others ; I do not find that the Scripture doth denominate or pronounce any one Righteous , or a Just Man , from one End to another , upon any-other Account then his doing Righteousness , yet will I not quarrel with any that say , we are made Righteous also by Forgiveness ; and that the Delivery of us from Sin , from the Law and Condemnation by it , is Justification , though really I am apt to think that this Work is rather to be attributed with the Apostle to our Redemption : Compare Ephes. 1 & 7. 2 Cor. 5. 19. Rom 3. 24. Animad . Observe what is hereby granted . 1 st . That Justification is oppos'd to the laying any thing to a Man's Charge , whereby he might be condemned , a● , who shall lay any Thing to the Charge of God's Elect ? The Questions therefore is , whether God's Elect be chargeable with any Thing that is condemnable ? For against a Righteous Man there is no Law ; this answers the End of Christ's coming in the Likeness of sinful Flesh , that he might not only condemn Sin in the Flesh , but that the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us , who walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; and this then truly acquits and clears such , who thus walk , both from the Charge of the Law and of the Gospel , there being no Condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus , &c. 2 dly . That we cannot deny the Charge of the Gospel , until we have performed that Remedying Condition , which God requires of us for the escaping the Condemnation , or rather until that true Faith and Repentance be wrought in us by the Grace of God , as the Condition upon , and through which God doth both pardon and justifie . 3 dly . That God justifieth us by this Righteousness that is by Faith , or Evangelical Obedience , without the Works of the Law ; it must be considered , to be without those Works of the Law which the Apostle intended , as namely those that were fleshly and shaddowy ( that were not essential to an Evangelical Righteousness ) and not that substantial and continuing Obedience of that Love , which is the fulfilling of the Law. 4 thly . That Evangelical Obedience and doing Righteousness , by which God justifies , or pronounces any one Righteous , and in which his Elect is not chargeable or condemnable , either by Law or Gospel , must needs therefore be a sincere Obedience , without the Mixture of Sin or any Thing condemnable , Christ being the Cause and Worker of that Faith , Sanctification and Righteousness in the true Believer , from whence his Obedience and doing of Righteousness proceeds , all which seriously considered , doth both shut out the Opinion of the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness to Men , while actual in their Sins , and the pronouncing them Righteous in God's Sight , who are by his Spirit denounced or condemned in themselves , as unrighteous and disobedient Persons ; for where real Faith and Repentance from dead Works is wrought in the Heart , there is a real Cessation from those Works , and evil Actions , although the very Nature and Seed thereof is not immediately wrought out of the Heart , but by Degrees . But then I see no Cause why it should be said , that Pardon or Remission is not any Essential Part , or no Part of Justification , but the Effect , as in Page 4. Seeing that Pardon of Sin , together with our Fa●th and Repentance ( as the Condition ) goes both into Universal Justification , as before , though a Pardon of Sins past upon true Faith and Repentance be not alone the absolute Justification , but also a Perseverance in faithful Obedience to the Gospel is necessary to an absolute justified Estate , both being by the Grace of God , in and through Christ , wherein he looks upon the Creature that is truly humbled , with an Eye of Compassion in remitting of Sins past , and with his Fatherly Love and Goodness in preserving and keeping such in the Sense of his Goodness , which doth obliege to Faithfulness and Continuance in the Truth unto the End , so that in an absolute justified Estate , there is both an Experience of true Humility , living Faith , Sanctification and sincere Obedience , and the continuance of the same [ according to these Scriptures 2 Cor. 5. 17 , 18. Ephes. 1. 7. to the End. Rom. 3. 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , & 31. ver . compared with ver . 21. see and observe also Titus chap. 3. 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. ] the real Experience whereof is beyond Mens Thinkings and Conceivings , and it is only the true Believers , and sanctified Ones , who can truly say from an inward Experience of the Work of God in their Hearts , that Christ is made unto us Wisdom , Righteousness , Sanctification and Redemption , and he that spared not his only Son , but delivered him up for us all , how much more shall he not with him give us all Things ? Sect. II. And seeing it is also granted or at least implied , that the State of Justification extends to a State of Perfection , it is necessary we by the Way further take notice of some Truths laid down by this Author about Perfection , as namely . It is to be acknowledged . 1st . That there are and may be very many Scriptures , easily pressed by the Quakers and Papists for the Service of their Doctrine ; so that there is no doubt but thus much is proved , that it is our Duty to be as perfect , as they would have ; every Sin is forbidden , and every Good Thing ( that is to say , by the Law of Innocency ) is commanded ▪ [ thus far true ] 2dly . He cites Augustine de Spiritu et Littera , that he saith , Alia est Questio , utrumaesse possit Homo in hac Vita sine Peccato , alia , utrum sit ? It is one Question whether it be possible for a Man to attain to such a Perfection as to live without Sin ? and another , whether there be any that do ? Unto which this Author addeth , That it is possible to attain this by Grace , or the special Assistance of God's Spirit , he thinks it best to grant ; he thinks it not fit nor safe to say , any or all of God's Commands are Impossible — the Work is to be attributed to him , unto whom nothing is impossible . Animad . Thus far we agree then : 1 st . That it is our Duty t● be so perfect , as to live without Sin. 2 dly . That it is also possible by the Grace and Assistance of God's Spirit , so to live and to keep all God's Commandments , though not possible to any Man , by his own free will and Strength , but only through the Assistance of divine Grace , it being God that worketh in us to will and to do , as also this Author freely grants . That und●r the Covenant of Grace , God expecting our Works to be right , that they proceed only from the sincere Heart , Animad . And that Heart must be such a one , as will not willingly disobey God ; and then what shall be wanting in Performance when God affords the Assistance of his Grace and good Spirit , which is alsufficient ? And further he soberly cautions , viz. And if any in the Dispute , do carry the Matter so high against them ( viz. the Quakers ) as to deny what they contend for to be possible , they may if they please , chose more Wariness from Saint Augustine ; for the Quakers ascribe not to themselves , but to the Spirit , the Life ▪ the Power , or to Christ within , all that they do : [ then he addeth , viz. ] On the contrary side , if these Friends will not be content with what is allowed them , that our Duty reaches so far , as not to sin at all , that this our whole Duty is possible through that Spirit by which I hope , some of them are led , pag. 8. Animad . I am glad that this Author hath so freely manifested a serious and ingenious Mind in him , as to confess unto these Truths , 1 st . That it is our Duty to be so perfect , as to live without sin . 2 dly . That it is possible , through the Assistance of God's Spirit so to live . 3 dly . That they who dispute against us , should chose more Wariness , then to deny the Perfection we contend for , to be possible . 4 thly . That the Quakers ascribe not the Possibility to themselves , but to the Spirit and Power , or Christ in them , in whom their Sufficiency is . And I do heartily wish that he were so far consistant herewith as by the same Spirit and Power , to acknowledge and believe on the behalf of Christ and his sincere Followers , that they are both willing , faithful and obedient in performance of their Duty , as well as accomplished with the Knowledge and Power for that End. Note . Otherwise I cannot see , but this Man will leave a secret and hidden Charge against God's Elect and Justified Ones , which is not , that they either want the Knowledge of their Duty , or God's ●ssistance for Performance ; but that they either want Willingness , or are unfaithful to God therein , and how are they then said to be called , and chosen and faithful ? or how are his People a willing People in the Day of his Power ? And he confess●th a sincere Heart hath God's Elect ; therefore let us further observe those Passages , wherein he differeth with us in this weighty Matter . Upon Augustine ' s Question whether there be any that do attain to such a Perfection , as to live without Sin , he concludes with the Denyal , and that if these Friends say , that every one who doth not attain to the same Pitch , as to live without Sin , cannot be in a State of Grace and Salvation , he shall think it Time to send them to the same Father and Book for their Reproof and Satisfaction ; but he hath confest , the Duty of Man is , not to Sin , and that it is possible through that Spirit , by which he hopes some of us are led , citing these Scriptures , viz. Walk before me and be thou per fect . Thou shalt love the ▪ Lord with all thy Heart , with all thy Soul , with all thy Strength . Thy Will be done in Earth as it is done in Heaven . Be Followers of Christ , and as his was , so must our Conversation be in the World. But then this Author concludes . There is no Man hath a sensible Knowledge of himself , but he perceives daily , how far his Duty is above his Performances . Animad . 1st Though we do confess that such an Estate of Grace and Salvation , as to live without Sin , is not suddenly , or at the First Dayes Work attained unto , yet by Degrees every one that follows Christ through the Work of Regeneration , and so comes into an Estate of absolute Salvation , such come at length , yea in this World , to be delivered from all Sin , and to know that Christ's Saving Work effecteth a Salvation from Sin ; he throughly purgeth his Floor , as this Man also denyes not , but the END of Christ's Manifestation in the Flesh , was to redeem us from all Sin , to destroy the Works of the Devil , to restore us out of sin and unrighteousness , and present us to God as a Peculiar People Purified by Faith , Zealous of Good Works , Holy and without Blame , Entire , and wanting nothing , Perfect and Compleat in ALL the Will of God. These being seriously considered , the Truth thereof believed , and a Living Faith , Hope and Expectation begotten in us for the fulfilling of these and such like Testimonies of Holy Scriptures , we think there is no Cause to send us to Augustine for Reproof ; for we must prefer Christ and the Apostles Testimonies in the Scriptures of Truth , before any other Man's private Opinions . 2 dly . Though it be the Estate of many Men who have a Knowledge of themselves to perceive how far their Duty is above their Performances , yea of such as may have a Sincere Mind and Defire in them to see all Lets and Hindrances of Performance removed , yet neither is this Imperfection alwayes the Condition of such ; nor is this Deficiency the Estate of every Man , for , there are Young Men and Fathers in the Truth , as well as little Children , and whosoever is so far enlightned , as to perceive a Shortness in Performance or Duty , yet having a sincere Desire to follow the Lord , and be made conformable to his Image ; there is a Promise to such , and as they waite upon the Lord , he will renew-their Strength , and grant unto them the Desire of their Souls : Blessed are they that Hunger and Thirst after Righteousness . And farther when God makes known his Will , and tells to thee O Man what thou oughtest to do , namely to do justly , love Mercy ▪ and walk humbly with the Lord thy God ; if in Submission thou yield to him , thine Help will be in him , as also he imposeth no Impossibilities upon his Church , but freely affords Grace and Power to encourage and assist in Real and Perfect Obedience ; and he having sent his Son a sufficient Workman to redeem Man from all Iniquity , and he works in us to will and to do ; what shall hinder the sincere Soul from its Duty , if no Grace be wanting , nor Divine Assistance witheld on God's Part , nor a sincere Mind awanting on the Creature 's Part ? Where can there be a Place for Disobedience to remaine ? Shall any charge God's Elect , or condemn his Chosen and Faithful Ones with Unwillingness to serve their so Gracious Lord and Master ? Let not such a Charge or Condemnation be left upon them , who are God's Workmanship , created in Christ unto good Works , unto whom the Promise , both of Power , Sufficiency and of Willingness is made , and so experimentally received in the Day of his Power ; and withal let it be considered that , as through the first Work of Grace in the Heart , there is a sincere Mind , Desire and Willingness in the Creature to follow the Lord , he deals gently with such , and draws them on by Degrees , even with Loving●kindness ; he layes no more up on them then suits their Abilities given ; suffers them not to be tempted above what they are able ; and his Grace being sufficient for them , he exerciseth Patience , chargeth not Temptations as Sin upon them when they consent not ; he also dealeth with them as a Shepherd , leading gently those that are with young ; in the Day when ●e maketh up his Jewels , he spareth them , as a Man spareth his only Son ; he attends and assists the travailing Soul in his Journey ; he gives the Babe Suck ; he affords them Time and Space for growing in Strength , until they become Men ; he hath Regard to his own workmanship from the least or smallest Beginnings thereof . O that the Work & Dealings of God in his New Creation were seriously minded , & really experienced ; this is beyond all Mens acquired Notions , Gatherings , Distinctions and Professions , that are without this Living Inward Experience of this Saving Work , and this would end Controversie and Strivings . Sect. III. Object . But the Failings of such are recorded , that were said to be Perfect . pag. 8. An●mad . So also are their Deliverances , as David's , Job ' s and others . Again , if the End of Christ's Manifestation was to redeem us from all Iniquity , to destroy the Works of the Devil , to restore us out of Sin , present us unto God holy and without Blame , entire wanting nothing , perfect and compleat in all the Will of God ; and hath purchased for his Church and People such a State , as to be without Sin ; why should any go about to frustrate his End therein , or invalidate his Purchase ? And why should any contend or arg●e for the contrary End ? And what more can we desire of Perfection , then is here granted ? But it is added , that this State which is compleating alwayes , must not be expected to be compleated until the other Life pag. 9. Animad . We must look upon this to be a Diversion from Scripture ; Ye are Compleat in Christ , as well as not answering the End for which Christ gave himself , that is , to wash and purifie his Church , and to present her a Glorious Church , without Spot or Wrinckle or any such Thing , although in this Life she arrives not to that Fulness of Glory that shall be hereafter , yet to such a Spotless Estate as to render her both Beautiful and Glorious ( else how could he say to his Spouse , Thou art Fair , thou art my Vndefiled , there is no Spot in thee ) in which Christ presents his Church unto his Father , as being the Effect of her being washed by Water through the Word , which surely must be in this Life . Object . But while she is both a Gracious Church ( that is ) while she is in this Life she shall not be without her Wrinckles nor her Troubles . pag. 9. Animad . Such Kind of Reconciling and Suppositions , together with this deferring or putting off perfect Freedom only unto the State of the Life to come , I say , such Work as this hath giv●n many loose Professors and others too much a Liberty , both to confound the State of Grace with that Universal State of Sin , and so that of the Gospel with that weak Estate under the Law , as also to oppose Christ's Work in this Life , and to put off Freedom from Sin unto that which is to come ; and in this Faith many take a Liberty all their Lives to the Hazard of their own Salvation , which if the sad Consequence of such Doctrine were seriously considered , and prudently foreseen , we should all preach up Righteousness , and cry down Sin , and excite Men to lay hold of Christ , and believe in him for perfect Redemption , and not argue for the Continuance of Sin all our Dayes , knowing how apt Men are to lay Hold of that which most suits their corrupt Minds , which are in the Evil Works ; we should not dispute for Sin , or a Deficiency in Duty , whatever Infirmity we perceive in our selves , but in all sincerity wait upon God , and exercise all Diligence through his Grace , Light and Presence for Evil to be supprest , and the Seed of Enmity to be extirpated , both out of our selves and others ; that Righteousness might be exalted , and run down as a mighty stream to wash away the Dirt and Corruption , which greatly abounds among many , who think to salve themselves , and to quiet their justly disturbed Consciences , with a Feigned Application of Christ's Righteousness and Merits , however they neither allow him , nor his holy Nature to have a Place in their Hearts , whose unsound Doctrine , as well as their unchristian Lives , hath levened many into Hypocrisie as well as kept them in ignorance from the very Life and Nature of Christianity , which consists in the inward Enjoyment of the Real Righteousness and Nature of the Son of God , as inwardly revealed , spiritually begotten , born and brought forth in the Soul through the Spirit of Holiness . What the Author saith concerning Perfectio Viae or Patriae Viatorum or Comprehensorum , a Perfection belonging to the State whiles we are in the Way as Travelers , or a Perfection belonging to the State , when we shall get home or to our Country , pag. 6. Adnimad . It is granted that there is a twofold Perfection belonging to the Saints , as namely to the State , as Travailers in this Life , and to the State of that to come , and that which is to come doth ex●eed the Estate that now is , as to the Fulness of Glory , yet granting a Perfection in the Way or Journey , in Order to that furrher Degree at the Journeys End ; this then is a Perfection in the Way , not out of it , and what is the Way that conduces to a further Glory ? but the Way of Righteousness , Thou wilt guide me by thy Counsel , and afterward receive me to Glory . With me to live is Christ , and to dye is Gain . The exceeding Weight of Glory which is prepared for the Righteous hereafter none can attain to , but they that faithfully follow Christ , while in the Earthly Tabernacle ; the Perfection of Grace here , which conduceth to the Perfection of Glory hereafter , admits not of the Continuance of Sin in Saints in this Life . Sect. IV. Object . If this Perfection , which consists in a Freedom from all Sin doth remain for the Rest above ; I see not who there now is , that can free himself from sinful Imperfection in this World , pag. 10. Herein he speaks doubtfully , and his not seeing the man , that can fr●e himself from all sinful Imperfection , is no Argument to prove that there is no such man , as Christ doth so free ; he further saith , That Perfection which belongs to the Estat of this Life is to be considered in the Kind and in the Degree of it ▪ there is a Perfection in Kind and of the Degree . Animad . Well , this Perfection in Kind is our Business to plead for at present , as namely the true Child of God , or he that is born of God , who hath his Seed remaining in him , his Generation and King is of a pure Nature , the Heavenly Birth is of a right Seed , and that which is born of God overcomes the World ; this Birth outgrows , overcomes and works out by Degrees all that is of a contrary Nature or Kind in man ; and that there are Fathers , Young Men and Children in Growth , as this Man moderately states our Doctrine : And concerning his two Questions , which he would fain be satisfied in , viz. 1 st . Whether that Degree of Holiness , which is attained by any Man , is not the Duty of every Man ? pag. 10. Answ. It is the Duty of every man to experience a Perfecting Holiness in the Fear of God ; and without Holiness no Man can see God ; every Member of Christ , and every Branch that abides in him , is of the Heavenly Father's purging , and therefore must be throughly purged ; his Work is perfect , and it is said to him , Thy People shall be all Righteous . 2 dly . Whether he that failes in the least of what is his Duty , doth not sin ? Answ. Yea , But if any Man sin we have an Advocate with the Father , and if we walk in the Light , as he is in the Light , we have Fellowship one with another , and the Blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all Vnrighteousness ; the Righteous Seed in us overcomes and works out the contrary . Conces . We do not deny to them that Perfection in its Kind , which every Man doth and must attain unto , that is saved ; the great D●fficulty will be only in a Right Vnderstanding , of what kind of Perfection it is which is to be agreed upon by both , pag. 10. Animad . Seing that it is immediatly after granted , That when the Scrip●ures speak of any Good Man or Woman , that fears God and works Righteousness , it is all one in Holy Language , as the being perfect is , and that to be a perfect man is to be a Just Man , a Righteous Man that fears God and eschews Evil. So then the Kind of Perfection must be that of Goodness , Righteousness and Justice , &c. Be ye Perfect as your Heavenly Father is Perfect ; be ye Merciful , as your Heavenly Father is Merciful , Luke 6. 36. or ▪ as this Man well sayes , our Duty is not to sin at all to be in our kind , as God in his is Perfect . And indeed they who have escaped the Corruptions of the World , and by the precious Promise of God , are made Partakers of the Divine Nature , they are conformable to his Image , Partakers of his Goodness , Kindness , Mercifulness , Long-suffering , &c. now this is the Kind and Nature , which every true Child partakes of , and grows up in , both to strength and stature in Order to a future Glory , though I grant all have not the same Gifts , Parts and Abillities in a Way of Demonstration , yet in every true Babe and Child of God , there is that hidden Seed , Nature and Life , where in both Purity and Perfection do consist ▪ and the Perfecting of Holiness is known , and from thence doth spring up the Fruits of Righteousness , and though I grant , that there were and may be Failings for a Time on the Creature 's Part , in whom the Work of Grace is begun , and a No●le Plant in the Seed or Root , before it be grown up , yet those Failings do not alwayes remain , but even in this Life , or this Side of Time are outgrown and done away by that Noble Seed and Birth of the Heavenly Father , unto which the Perfection is originally ascribed , and only to Man or the Soul , as Partaking thereof . If we confess our Sins , he is Faithful and Just to forgive us our Sins , and to cleanse us from all Vnrighteousness ; a manifest Incouragement not to continue in Sin , nor to despaire because of it , nor yet to believe its Continuance in us , but to believe that he , whose Faithfulness and Justness will allow of Forgiveness , will cleanse us from all Unrighteousness ; for , we are sure ●his Righteousness admits of no Unrighteousness at all in us . The Author addeth , viz. Of what Value then that Notion about this Righteousness of God , which after many Years Thoughts I have offer'd in the two former Papers , I leave to Time , &c. Animad . Well , I desire the Lord may yet further open this Author's Understanding with an experimental Knowledge of the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus , in the Revelation thereof from Faith to Faith , and this will be more to Confirmation and Satisfaction then all Man's Thoughts , studied Notions and Comprehensions thereof ; and seeing there hath been such serious Inclinations in his Heart , it is to be hoped that the Lord will answer his Expectations , if he waits upon him , and hath an Eye to him in that Measure of his Divine Light given . Sect. V. Object . There is no Man that sinneth not ; there is not a Just Man upon Earth , that doth good and sinneth not ; there is none that doth good , no not One , page 13. Animad . 1st . These Places if rightly considered ; cannot reach or comprehend the highest State or Growth of Saints under the Gospel , or of such as are born of God , whom the Wicked One toucheth not , and who do not commit Sin ; for such do Good and do not sin in doing Good ; but some learned Men do not understand the Words cited , in the same Sense or Mood ; as rendred in the Translation , viz. that there is no Man that sinneth not , or no Man Just that doth Good and sinneth not , but in the Potential , viz. may not sin , or no Man but that he may sin , and no man Just in the Earth that doth Good and may not sin ; and that this concerned a Legal State , or the State of a Just Man under the Law , and not of a Gospel Estate or Attainment , thus Dr. Gell in his Essay towards the Amendment of the last English Translation of the Bible , Fol. 768 , 769. Besides , there is a Difference between a Just Man , as in the Law , and a Good Man , as in the Gospel ; it is not said , that there is not a Good Man on Earth that sinneth not . 2 d●y . There is none that doth Good , no not one ; cannot be taken ●universally ; for that were to contradict the Saying before , of the Just Man doing Good , and to bring this as a proof of the Saints State , cannot be Just nor Right ; for it did not concern them , but the Unconverted Jews and Gentiles , and such , as neither understood nor sought after God , see Rom. 3. 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 16. 17 , 18. together with the Place in the Psalms to which this refers . Object . In many Things we offend all ; if we say , we have no Sin we deceive our selves , page 13. Animad . Nor do these comprehend the highest Growths or Attainments of Saints and Good Men in this Life ; it was usual , both with Apostles and Prophets to personate , or take in themselves with the least and weakest of those they spoke and wrote to , using the Particle WEE , as instance in the same Apostle cited , Jam. 3. 9. Therewith curse WEE Men , and 1 John 1. 6. to the End , and it is also said verse 10. If WEE say , WEE have not sinned , WEE make him a Lyar , and his Word is not in us , y●t see he declares the Rem●dy , as well as the Disease , verse 7. If WEE walk in the Light , as he is in the Light , We have Fellowship one with another and the Blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleans●th us from all Sin and : further he shews his Holy Design in what he writes in these Words , viz. My little Children these Things write I unto yuo , that you sin not , 1 John 2. 1. Object . No Man is regenerate but in Part , not as if one Faculty was sanctified and not another , but there remains the Principle of Corruption , together with the Principle of Grace , which is infused , that is both Flesh and Spirit in the same Person , and whatsoever ●rodeeds from the one cannot be Sin , as whatsoever proceeds from the ●ther cannot be otherwise pag. 13. Animad . Herein we differ , for we must confess that by Degrees , the Work of Regeneration , and Sanctification comes throughly to be effected , or perfected in every one that continues in true Faith , even to a through purging out of Corruption , and to a perfect Mortification of that from whence Sin proceeds ; be ye sanctified throughout in Body , Soul and Spirit , and farther , They that are Christ's have crucified the Flesh with its vile Affections ; and it is not the Flesh meerly of it self , but as it is subjected to an Evil Principle or Seed of Sin , that brings forth corrupt Actions , but Christ's Work is throughly to purge . Sect. VI. But further seeing this Author's Opinion is , that no man is Regenerate but in Part , and that there remains the Principle of Corruption , together with the Principle of Grace ; how doth he dispense with these Scriptures cited by him , viz. He that cammitteth sin is of the Devil ; Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin ; for his Seed remaineth in him , and he cannot sin because he is b●rn of God ; He that is born of God keepeth himself that the Wicked one toucheth him not , 1 John 3. & chap. 5. To salve this , he tells us that St. Augustine doth lay some two or three of these Texts together , and offers us this Solution ; That which is born of God ( saith he ) sins not , which is as much as to say , there is that which is born of God in the true Christian , and that which is not born of him , page 13. Animad . I grant that there is that , which is born of God ( as relating to a Thing or Principle ) spoken of in John's Epistles , as WHATSOEVER is born of God overcomes the World ; and this is the Victory that overcomes the World , even our Faith , 1 John 5. 4. well this is to our Purpose still , that WHATSOEVER is born of God overcomes the World , and surely then , this doth not leave the world's Principle of Corruption unsubdued in true Christians , but there is also WHOSOEVER is born of God doth not commit sin ; for is Seed remaineth in him , and WHO is he that overcometh the World [ who ] relates to the Man or Person that believes in the Son of God , as well as the other doth to the Principle or Seed in him , so that as the holy Seed or that which is born of God comes into Dominion in Man , this takes in the Creature or Soul to partake of its Nature again , as the Author hath added , That according to the Prevalency there is of any of these two Principles in the Soul , so is the Person to have his Denomination , page 13. Very true then , as the Good Principle becomes prevalent in the Soul , man becomes a good man , or an holy and just man. As for his Allegation from the Apostle in Rom. 7. That the Ap●stle did the Evil he would not , saying , it is no more I that doth it , but Sin that dwelleth in me ; This , it is true , was a State that Paul knew in the Time of his Warfare and Travail ; and even in this State God had Regard to the Sincerity of his Mind , wherewi●h he served the Law of God , even while he was warring against the contrary Law ; but as I answered before , this Apostle as well as others , did so far condescend to the Weakness of others , as not only to signifie such Exercises as he had past through , but also to personate the Conditions of others to whom he wrote and spake ; for , he could not be in all those different and various States that he represents in that Epistle to the Romans , at one and the same Time when he then wrote , viz. as to be both Carnal and Spiritual , sold under Sin , and yet freed by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Rom. 8. 1 , 2. with many more Instances , which ●ight be cited out of the same Epistle ▪ compare Rom. 6 , & 7 , & 8. Chapter , read them seriously , also how plain is it that Paul condescended to speak as one below his own present Attainment ; for I speak after the manner of men , because of the Infirmity of your Flesh , Rom. 6. 19. To the Weak I became as weak , &c. see 1 Cor. 9. 22. Object . What is alledged by this Writer for the Principle of Corruption remaining in the Child of God , & for all Men being sinners , and for every Man upon Earth sinning against the Law of Works , in leaving undone what it requires , or doing what it forbids in Thought VVord or De●d , even continually , page 14. Animad . I think he hath sufficienly answered himself with a Confutation , distinguishing by these Texts Confession inserted in the next Section , Sect. VII . He confesseth That other Texts say , that the Regenerated do not sin , and the Blood of Christ cleanseth us from all Sin , and there is no Man sins against the Law of Grace , so as to leave undone what tha● requires as the condition of Life , who is saved ; as also , that all Power is committed to the Son ; the Law of Nature is put into Christ's Hands to be commanded by him which together with Remedying Grace are Parts of his Law ; But then he bids us distinguish between sinning against one or other Precept of Christ's Law , and sinning against it as a Conditional Covenant by none performance . To this I must add , 't is true that the Condition of Life cannot be left undone by any who are saved , that is , Faith and Repentance cannot be omitted by any such , or no Man can be saved , or inherit Eternal Life in a State of Unbelief ; but then if this great Condition of Life be performed , or this Remedying Grace received and enjoyed , sincere Obedience to Christ's Law in lesser Matters must needs follow ; for , as the Performance of the greater Things must needs argue a Capacity to perform the letter , so we ought to shew a sincere Respect and Faithfulness to our Lord and Master in the least Things , as well as in the greatest ; for , he that is unjust in the least , is unjust also in much ; and if they be Christ's Friends that do whatsoever he commands , then it 's evident that in a State of Grace , Favour and Union with him , Christ doth not permit of sinning against one or other Precept of his Law upon any Account ; and though there be that which is called the Law of Works , which the Believer is never under nor oblieged to perform in the Shadow , in the Flesh or outward Part , yet the Law of the New Covenant , the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ , the Law of Faith , the Law of Love must be performed , and faithfully obeyed by all that come into that Covenant , or to be under Christ's Government in his Kingdom , and as for his Covenant as Conditional , or wh●t is required thereby as the Condition of Life , this admits not of the Continuance of Sin or Corrupt●on ; see what the Author grants in this Case . If thou wilt enter into Life ●aith Christ , keep the Commandments ; neither Circumcision nor Vncircumcision availeth any thing saith the Apostle , but Faith working by Love , in one Place , but a New Creature , in another , but keeping the Commandments of God , in a third ; do we make void the Law through Faith ? No , we establish it , that the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us , who walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; the doers of the Law shall be justified ; it appears by a Multitude of such Scriptures as these [ saith he ] that the Law or Commandments of God are to be kept or fulfill●d ; that the Fulfilling them is required as necessary to the Person justified , and consequently , as the Condition ( which is all one ) of Pardon and Life . Thus far he grants , page 14. which is a large Concession . Object . But again , To help us out here ( he saith ) we must distinguish after our more sober and best Divines ; the Law of God may be considered ridgedly , or not ridgedly , that is with Condescension to Human Frailty , according to the Measure in every one of the Gift of Christ , or according to our Model , Strength or Grace in this Life , and that Degree of Perf●rmance which God requires of us precisely in the New Covenant , to the obtaining of Salvation ; it is in the latter , the mild the gracious , not in the former , the ridged Sense , that such Texts are to be interpreted that the Law or Commandments are fulfilled , and that the Observation is made necessary to the justified and saved . Animad . 1st . That there is a gracious Condescension in God towards Mankind , as not to leave Man under the Severity of the Law , without affording Remedying Grace , is confest by us , as also according to the Measure of the Gift of Christ in every●one , and according to our Strength and Degree of Grace , which he affords us ; he doth condescend both in extending Pardon , remitting Sin past , delivering us from under the Severity of the Law , and justifying us from all those Things , from which we could not be justified by the Law of Moses , as we receive and submit unto his Grace , and New Covenant of Life and Salvation , but still this mild and gracious Condescension of God , his Law and Commandments appertaining to this Covenant , admits not of the Continuation of Sin , nor doth the least Measure of the Gift of Christ , or Principle of Grace admit of Corruption or Sin to remain with it , but by Degrees works out the very Seed and Principle of Corruption , and sanctifieth the whole Man , leavens the whole Lump , in so much that this increaseth , and Truth springeth up daily , and the Fruit of the Spirit groweth and ripeneth in man , as he comes thus to be prepared & fitt●d , and hereby comes the Way of Life & Salvation to be made easie and delightsome to him : Take my Yoak upon you ; for my Yoak is easie and my Burden light saith Christ , and this is the Love of God , that we keep his Commandments , and they are not grievous but joyous to us ; thus the Grace and Love of God makes Way through all Difficulties , and makes all that he requires in the New Covenant to be , not only possible , but easie and delightsome to that Soul who comes to Christ , who ●aid , come to me all yee that labour , that are weary and heavy la●en and I will ease you [ namely , I will ease you from the Burden of your Sins and of your Failings in your Duty , and of the Severity or Condemnation of the Law , which you have been labouring and travailing under , I will perfectly ease you and free you , that you may the more cheerfully bear my Yoak , and undergo my Burden , and I will enable you to run the Way of my Commandments with Delight ; I will lay no more upon you then what you are able to bear , and cheerfully to undergo ; be of good Comfort , for I have overcome , &c. ] And I further grant God's merciful Acceptation of us for Christ's sake , and of what we do , through the Obedience and Oblation of Christ Jesus , as he gives us an Evidence by his Spirit of our being in him , accepted in the Beloved ; and this Acceptation extending to the least of his Children and P●ople , and to the lowest stature among them , whose Hearts are sincere towards him ; so this is Encouragement unto them to persevere in Obedience according t● their Measures , and Abillities in this Gift of Grace , that they may continue therein , and grow from Strength to Strength and from Faith to Faith , untill they come to Maturity , or to a full Age in Christ. Now the least Child , or lowest of the Servants of God , in obeying or being faithful to what he gives t●em to improve according to their Abillities , such do not commit Sin therein . Object . There is no Man keeps the Commands of Christ , so as never to fail in any thing of his Duty , but every Child of God keeps them so as they are made the Condition of Life in the New Covenant , page 15. Animad . To the first it may be granted , that no Man hath al●wayes kept the Commands of Christ ; For , if we say we have not sinned , we make him a Lyar. To the second Part , if every Child of God keep his Commands , as they are made the Condition of Life in the New Covenant , then I hope it will be granted however , that the greatest and most substantial Commandments are kept , and how he should then neglect the lesser , or remain unfaithful in the least Things I cannot understand ; for , ye are my Friends if ye do whatsoever I command you , faith Christ ; and he that is faithful in that which is least , is faithful also in much : Now , this great Commandment of Love being the Fulfilling of the Law , must needs be therefore comprehensive of ( or take in ) the lesser Commandments ; and farther let it be seriously minded and considered , that he that is come into the New Covenant , or to be in Covenant with God , is come into that Agreement and Union with him , which this Covenant contains , which admits not of the continuance of Sin , or Breach of the Law of this Covenant ; and he that abides in Christ sins not ; he that dwells in Love dwells in God ; be not deceived , he that doth Righteousness is Righteous , even as he is Righteous , 1 John 3. And this may answer what is said about the Child of God , that as he is Righteous and Perfect , he sins not , &c. and that when St. John speaks of sinning not , we may observe , how he counterpoises committing Sin with being Righteous or doing Righteousness : [ to which this Author addeth ] The true Christian sins not , so as he opposeth his being Righteous ; he commits not Sin , as is contradictory to his doing Righteousness , page 15. But still he seems here to leave Room for the Child of God's sinning , or committing Sin in some Sense or other while in this World , about which we differ , and cannot be reconciled , unless we both joyn in that Seed and Principle , which lives in the child of God ; if we both did meet in that which is born of God , which overcomes the World , we should both agree about the State of him or whosoever ( to wit , the Man of God , or true child ) that is born of God whom the Wicked One cannot touch . Sect. VIII . Again since he saith , The calm Protestants will grant to the Papists such a fulfilling of the Law , as does constitute a Real true Righteousness , and that which is perfect or entire according to the Covenant of Grace , and so accepted of God unto Life , &c. page 15 , 16. Animad . 'T is well that some Protestants grant thus much ; for this is repugnant , both to the continuance and mixture of Sin and Corruption in the Children of God , or with their Obedience ; for , true and real Righteousness , which is perfect and entire according unto the Covenant of Grace , is what we do plead for , both , as to the Root and Fruits of it , but I cannot see how this can consist with what he saith ; The most violent Papists will grant to the Protestant , that this Righteousness nevertheless is not wtthout all Sin , but doth both fail in the Degree which the Law exacts ; and is intermingled with many , at least venial Transgressi●n● , page 16. Although this doth somewhat agree with what this Author drives at against us , yet such a mixture we cannot own , nor such an interminglement of Sin with that Righteousness which is perfect , and entire according to the Covenant of Grace ; and I see no Reason when the Soul 's great Enemy is overcome , and the greater Sins washed off , and the greater Pollutions done away , why those venial Sins or lesser Sins should remain , and there is no Reason that venial or pardonable Sins should remain or be continued after pardoned ; Man's Mind and Heart being changed and turned from them , having repented thereof at the Time of his receiving pardon , or when he receiveth Redemption through the Blood of Christ , even Remission of Sins past . As for standing on our own Righteousness , when it is taken for Self-Righteousness in the Sense of the Prophet Isaiah chap. 64. 6. We do utterly deny and exclude it , but as the Lord is o●r Righteousness by his inward Work of Grace , and Sanctification in our Hearts , we must forever own and stand by this with Respect to our Justification , Acceptance and Peace with him , as being the Ground and Original thereof to us and in us ; and they who exclude this inward or inherent Righteousness of God from Justification , we can in no wise own their Doctrine . Again between this Man 's Assenting , page 16 , 17. that that Righteousness which is accepted of God unto Life , is a real true Righteousness , perfect and entire according to the Covenant of Grace , and yet , that this Righteousness is imperfect wherein we are justifiable by the Covenant of Mercy , as Performers of the Condition ; here appears such an Inconsistancy , as I know not how to reconcile ; for , that which is perfect & entire according to the Covenant of Grace , is never deficient , lame or imperfect , nor yet intermingled with any Sin to make i● so , as Christ being made unto us Wisdom , Righteousness , Sanctification and Redemption , we are only accepted in him , justified in his Righteousness , accepted in the Beloved ; whereby we do not exclude that Obedience on our Parts which Christ injoyns , but are enabled and naturallized thereunto . Confess . He confef●eth , that God gave his whole Law for a Covenant , and if one Part only were transgressed , the Condition of that Covenant is broken , as well as if all were transgressed ; and that we must understand the like in reference to the Law of Faith , or Covenant of Grace and its Observation , page 17. Animad . Must we so ? Then as perfect or full Obedience is required by the latter , and unto it , as by the former , and much more Power and Encouragements attend this ( being established upon better Promises ) then were known under the other ; and in this Covenant of Grace God's Promises are Yea and Amen , which concern perfect Holiness , as well as the rest of the Saints Priviledges ; and both this Law and Righteousness of Faith , require a sincere or perfect Obedience to the Word of Faith in the Heart ( and that in order to the compleating an absolute Justification and Salvation ) as the Law or Letter without doth to the Precepts therein contained ; but then the Man varies in what he addeth in the next Section . Sect. IX . Object . viz. Let a Man's Sins be what they will , so long as the Condition be performed he , may according to this Law be judged no Transgressor , page 17. Animad . Whereas if this Law of Faith or Covenant of Grace must be as fully observed , as the whole Law ●hat God gave to Man for a Covenant ( as before ) no Part whereof was to be broken , how do these consist ? And if the Law be not made void through Faith , but established ; and if it be not the Unrighteous that shall inherit the Kingdom of God , but such as are washed and sanctified from all Uncleanness , that are also justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus , and by the Spirit of our God , see 1 Cor. 6. Then I do not see that the Performance of the Condition of the Covenant of Grace can consist with [ Let a Man's Sins be what th●y will ] which Words have a Tendence to an Evil Liberty ; for , a justified State is plainly opposed ( as contrary ) to that of the Unrighteous in this , 1 Cor. 6. 9 , 10 , 11. Object . It 's further added ; Though we fail in our Duty we fulfil the Condition , page 18. Animad . How can that be ? if the Covenant of Grace , or Law of Faith be the Condition which we are to observe and obey , as our Duty so far as it concerns us , both as enjoyned and assisted by Christ Jesus our Life and Righteousness ? Is it not our Duty to fulfil the Condition ? and do we yet fail in our Duty whilest we fulfil it ? No sure . As to David's Heart being perfect , and that he kept God's Commandments or Precepts . 1st . This of his Heart being perfect , respects what was sincere and uprght in David as a Spirit without Guile , a sincere Desire , Intention and Resolution of Heart towards God , though for a Time he had Failings , and was bes●t with Temptations , yet the Lord had Regard to his Uprightness , &c. 2 dly . David's keeping God's Commandments or Precepts , was when he was really clear , and actually obedient , walking in the Wayes of God , and not as consistant with his sinning in the Matter of Uriah , &c. for which he underwent great Judgment and deep Affliction , often imploring Mercy and Pardon , praying for Cleansing , Washing &c. 3dly . As he was a Man after God's own Heart , he was according to and in God's Choice and Promise , he stood in the Election : The Lord hath sought him a Man after his own Heart , 1 Sam. 13. 14. I have found David the Son of Jesse , a Man after mine own Heart , which shall fulfil all my Will ; this being fulfilled he was in a precious State , not guilty nor condemnable , for , after God's own Heart , was both ●is Sincerity , Perfection and Purity : Surely being a Man after God's own Heart and fulfilling all his Will , could not concern David's worst but his best State. Object . But to answer that Complaint , That his Sins were more then the Hairs upon his Head , this Writer saith , There are Sins consistant with Sincerity , and inconsistant with it . Animad . Though I would as favourably construe his Words as I can , yet this Phrase [ Sins consistant with Sincerity ] I can neither own to be sound , scriptural or of a good Tendence ; but tending to gratifie both the sin-pleasing Professors unrighteous Imputarians , and loose Antinomians of our Times ; for , though I do gra●t , ●hat a sincere-minded Man may possibly be overtaken with a Fault through some great Temptation or Tryal , & yet not loose his Sincerity ( though it be clouded ) but retain his Integrity , as Job did his , until he be fully recovered , restored and delivered , ( wherein he differs from him that wilfully or designedly sins , or is obstinate or wittingly dissembles and playes the Hypocrite ) yet no Sin or Neglect of Duty is consistant with the Sincerity it self , which God hath begotten in the Creature ; but there is a daily or constant Travail and Warring in the sincere Mind and Soul , until the Sin be overcome , and really done away , as it was with Paul when with his Mind he served the Law of God , had travailed in Spirit for Deliverance from that Law of Sin , which did embondage or captivate his Members , in which low Estate of warring , God hath an Eye to the upright and sincere Mind that waits upon him , and subjects to his inward Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus ; and by his Spirit of Adoption doth help his Creature 's Infirmities , until all that offends be subdued , and the Soul becomes more then a Conquerer . And so as for his Distinction between the Breach of our Duty and the Condition , while he discourseth for Failing of the first , and yet a Fu●filling the latter ; I cannot reconcile him herein , nor own such Distinctions , either as necessary or consistant with the real Experience of a Justified State , wherein the Law of the Spirit of Life [ or Law of Faith ] in Christ is answered and followed , and the Effect thereof experienced in them that are in Christ Jesus , who walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; and in them the Righteousness , Morality , Good Order and Duty ( both respecting the Law and Gospel , Nature and Grace ) is fulfilled by Christ Jesus , and performed through his spiritual Assistance . It 's true , there is a Sin unto Death ( as he saith ) and a Sin not unto Death ; and no better then sinning unto Death , can I look ●pon Men's Continuance in any known Sin or Unrighteousness , all their Life Time against the holy and just Law of God in the Conscience ; the Sin of Impenitence as well as of Unbelief being persisted in , incurs Death , as it 's granted that David ( in the M●t●er wherein he sinned ) in that present State could not have been saved if he had dyed ; but surely if the Condition of true Faith and Repentance be performed , and the Nature there of be experienced , the other Acts of Duty and Obedience will follow ; for , is there any Sin or Neglect of Duty that 's not to be repented of and ceas'd from ? or can a true Believer see any Sin or Failing without believing , or exercising Faith in his Warring against it till he overcome , and he hath out grown it ? No sure , he attains to the Accomplishment of his Warfare through valiantly fighting the Good Fight of Faith , he reacheth unto the End of his Race by unwearied travailing on without Fainting . Sect. X. To his saying , Behold here a Kind of Heaven opened unto you , who are the Children of God , and fear his Name , where all your Sins and Iniquities are removed , and where every one of you are righteous and perfect , and sin not ; for , this is the Benefit and Fruit of Christ's Death and Redemption , that he hath delivered you from that Law which you break . Animad . 1st . That Heaven where all Sins and Iniquities are removed , and where the Children of God are perfect and sin not , is not of this Man's or any of their opening who oppose perfection of Duty , and argue for Sin 's continuance in God's Children whilest in this Life ; for that Heaven wherein dwells Righteousness , and they are all Righteous and sin not , admits not of Sin to have any Place in it , the Will of God being perfectly done therein . 2 dly . That 's the old Heaven and old Earth wherein dwells Unrighteousness , and these must ●e shaken and removed for the New to take Place . 3 dly . Christ is the End of the Law for Righteousness , and not to indulge Transgression or any Breach of that Law which is Holy , Just and Good , fulfilled and not destroyed in the New Creature and Covenant . 4 thly . 'T is true as he saith , That Christ hath brought us under a New Law , the Law of Grace which requires nothing of us , but what sub Ratione Conditions ; we do keep ; for he gives his holy Spirit to enable us to the Performance , so that not only our Sins are done away and not imputed , but forgiven , as the Iniquities of Judah shall be sought for and not fou●d ; but this Covenant hath nothing to lay to our Charge [ to which I would add ] as we are Children of God redeemed by Christ , who gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from all Iniquity [ mark that ] And further , Blessed is he whose Transgression is forgiven , and whose Sin is covered ; bless●d is the Man unto whom the Lord imputeth not Iniquity , and in whose Spirit there is No Guile , Psa. 32. 1 , 2. Observe , In whose Spirit is NO Guile : And further , the holy Spirit in this New Covenant , enables them that walk in it , to the perfect Performance of their Duty therein required , and the Reconciliation that was wrought in the Body of his Flesh through Death ; for such as were sometimes alienated [ as the Apostle saith ] I was to present them Holy , unreproveable in his Sight , if they continue in the Faith grounded and setled , and be not moved away from the Hope of the Gospel ; this unreproveable State in his Sight , and Duty of Continuance in the Faith , is the Perfection and Justification that we aim at . As for his granting a Perfection which Divines call Evangelical to the Quaker , that is an Integrity of Heart and Life which the Gospel requires of every man that shall be saved . pag. 20. We accept of this Grant , as rightly understood and experienced in the Evangelical and New Covenant State , and are satisfied , that where this Integrity of Heart and Life , which the Gospel requires is thus experienced , there will not be a Falling short of Duty , especially since neither the Knowledge thereof , nor yet divine Assistance will be wanting to such as possess this Integrity of Heart and Life : As for this Man's Supposition , If these Friends ( meaning the Qu●kers ) will have more , then they must come to that , our Divines call legal Righteousness , &c. page 20. I do not understand that a legal Righteousness , or Righteousness of the Law can be more or higher then an Evangelical Perfection , or Righteousness which the Gospel requires , nor Moses's House more beautiful then Christ's ; though we do not propose the Righteousness of the Law , or the keeping the Law in the outward Part of it , nor impose it as in the Letter and Shaddow , as either the Condition of Salvation or necessary thereto ; but True Faith in Christ , which worketh by Love ; and as the Apo●stle said , I though the Law am dead to the Law , that I might liv● unto God ; I am crucifi●d with Christ , &c. Gal. 2. 19 , 20. As for this Man's , or any others sleighting the Perfection we plead for , tearming it a legal Righteousness , we value not such insinuations , seeing , that to live without Sin according to the Royal Law of Love , is both what the Law and Gospel requires , and he hath confessed it our Duty ▪ and possib●e for us to attain to it through the Assistance of God's ●pirit . It is granted that the Disciples did call God Father , and so they must be in some Degree called and adopted to be his Sons while they did ask Forgiveness for th●ir Tresp●ss●s or D●bts , as they for●gave others , yet I do not grant this to be their highest State , or Attainments in this Life ; for they did not only obtain Forgiven●ss , but also the Blood of Christ cleansed them from all Sin ; and if they were heard in saying , Thy Will be done in Earth , as it is in Heaven , as doubtless they were ; then what Sin or Trespass could alwayes be continued by them , or persisted in which was not perfectly done away in this Life ? I further confess , that true Believers may be called the Children of God , and under two Considerations or Degrees , 1 st . As called and adopted to be his Sons ( being begotten into the Faith ) w●ile yet they are weak and have Infirmities , which the Spirit of Adoption doth help ; they are Children , as to their Weakness little Children , Children in Understanding , yet in a Degree 〈◊〉 Faith , Sincerity and Innocency , having their Sins forgiven ; I have writ unto you little Children , because your Sins are forgiven you . 2dly . Children , and Sons of God in a higher Degree and State , perfectly born , not only of Water , but also of the Spirit , even of the incorruptible Seed , that liveth and abideth forever , Partakers of and naturallized into the Divine Nature and Image ; and such are they that cannot sin , in whom the Seed remains , and whom the Wicked one cannot touch , &c. And if he cannot touch them , muchless lead or drive them into sin or Neglect of Duty ; further , the Forgiveness that any true Believer had daily need of for a time , was obtained and experienced , even by little Children . Touching that Article of that Prayer , Forgive us our Trespasses , &c. The Man seems undeservedly to reflect , by saying , yet they think they may scratch it out of their Bibles , because they leave it unsaid , page 21. I suppose he meaneth the Quakers herein , having a little before insinuated something against them , touching Perfection , which I cannot own , as fair Dealing ; for we think no such Thing , but do really own that Prayer , both as to the Matter and seasonableness of it ; and as to the Fulfilling of it , with Respect to the several Condition ; concerned therein . Sect. XI . To his saying , page 21. That the constant stream of God's Word runs thus , that we are sinners , that we must all repent , that we must alwayes be renewing our Repentance , in making our Prayers , Confessions , Supplications , doing our Alms , &c. Animad . He appears herein much declined from the first Part of his Book , and the Perfection and universal Justification therein consented to , as our Duty , and Possibillity of Attainment through Divine Grace or Assistance : Now he seems to be fallen into the Ditch of the Imputarians of the Times , who are daily pretending Repentance , Humiliation , Confessions and Supplications , which are never attended with a real forsaking of Sin , but they are sinning still in their best Dutyes . none of them so just or good , as to do good without sinning in doing good , while they have Forgveness to crave for the Iniquities of their best Dutyes , at which Rate they may be every Day praying , feigning a Penitency and Humility , and even therein still adding more Sin , and making themselves more Work : Both this pretended Repentance , Voluntary and feigned Humility is to be repented of ; if the true Nature of Repentance , Praying , Asking and Receiving were experienced through the Spirit , it would cut off all this strugling for Sin , which must have no Place in Christ's Kingdom . Upon that Scripture , If any Man sin we have an Advocate with the Father , who is the Propitiation for our Sins , and also for the Sins of the whole World ; upon this he is pleased to pataphrase thus , viz. There is our Sins , St. John's Sins that need Advocate , as well as the World , page 21. Animad . I must need confess this allows St. John very little Preeminence , the Comparison is somewhat mean ; for [ our Sins ] may relate to Sins that were past and forgiven , as well as the accidental sinnings of any weak ones among them ; for he should have considered that [ if any Man sin ] is not that every Man must sin , or t●at no Man can do otherwise , but rather implies , that they might also be kept out of Sin , seeing he saith , These Things write I unto you , that you sin no● ; it seems he was not of this Man's Mind , that they were Sinners all their Dayes , or could be no otherwise : Besides , both John and others condescended to the lowest of those to whom they wrote , taking themselves in as sharers in the same Conditions , and suffering with them , that they might help them ; To the weak I became as weak &c. As for his Alledging and citing Eliphaz for Sin , What is Man , that he should be clean , and he that is born of a Woman , that he should be Righteous ? Because he putteth no Trust in his Saints , and the Heavens are not clean in his Sight . ●o this I say , that I am no more of his Mind then Job was ; and I do not reckon such an Instance of one of Job's miserable Comforters , to be any valid Proof against Perfection ; for , doth God put no Trust in his Saints ? Doth he not give this Testimony of them ? surely they are my People , Chi●dren that will not lye , and so was he their Saviour : And further observe , that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite , My Wrath is kindled against thee and against thy two Friends ; for ye have not spoken of me the Thing that is right , as my servant Job hath , Job . 42. 7. ●●is Author further adds , We are all an unclean Thing saith the Church , and all our Right●ousnesses are as filthy Rags , pag. 21. Animad . I wonder he hath distinguished no better here ; for this as applied to the Church without Distinction , contradicts all his Concessions to the Truth before , both of universal Justification , Perfection , the Condition of Life and Salvation , and Evangelical Holiness ; methinks he should consider that these are not intended in those Righteousness●s that are as filthy Rags , and that the Prophet Isaiah himself did personate and intend the Jews herein , as disobedient , rebellious and corrupt in their doings , and not the Evangelical Church , whose Righteousness the Lord is , and concerning whom it was promi●ed , Thy People shall be all Righteous . Object . There is one Text most full , he saith , which is that of David , Enter not into Judgment with thy Servant , O Lord ; for in thy Sight shall no Man living be justi●ied ; upon which he is pleased to argue , If there is ●r ever was any meer Mortal on Earth , that lived altogether without Sin , then must this Text be false . Animad . This [ altogether without Sin ] hath a large Extent , and it is not that which we lay the Controvesie upon ; we do not state this for Justification in God's Sight , that any meer Mortal on Earth lived altogether without Sin ; for all generally have sinned ; and if we say we have not sinned , we make him a Lyar , and his Word is not i●us , 1 John 1. 10. And further I will grant , that if therefore God should enter into strict Judgement with any , deservedly to punish them for all that ever they have done , then there would be no Place either for Pardon , Justification , Salvation or Redemption by Christ ; and further , by the Deeds of Law , and all the Righteousness that is meerly performed by the Flesh shall no Flesh living be justified ; if God upon t●is A●count should enter into Judgement , then in his Sight should no Man living be justified ; ●ut seeing he hath provided and afforded a Gracious Remedy , to wit the S●ed of the Woman , 〈◊〉 bruiseth the Serpent's Head ; th●t destroye the Devil , and treads Satan under Feet ; hereby 〈◊〉 livers Man from Condemnation and Death , although the first hath a Sense of the Sentence of Death , and the Ministry of Condemnation in him , as knowing that Commandment which kills and makes alive , works Death , and brings for h● Life : And so I will further confess , that no Man living in this State ( unto which he must dye in passing through the Law ) can be justified in God's Sight . His saying , that it is common for Men to alledge a few ●catered Scr●ptures against any Opinion , which yet is true . This both is a sleighty , as well as an irreverend expression ( as touching the Scriptures ) and the Reflection implied in it against us , as groundless . Sect. XII . Object . If we are justified through C●rist's Redemption through Faith , when none of us have performed the Condition required ●fus to our Justification by the Law of our Creation , th●n must our Justification be of Grace , &c. Animad . 1st . Though Justification be of Grace , yet this doth neither indulge nor allow us in the Breach of the Condition required by the Law of our Creation nor are Men justified in the Breach and Violation thereof . if by the Law of our Creation , the Law of Innocency or Image of God wherein Man was created , be intended for a justified State by the Grace of God in Christ where compleated , is where Men are saved through the Washing of Regeneration , Tit. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. Object . If this Grace is obtained or purchased for us through Christ's Redemption , then is God righteous though he accept of us ( seeing it is for Christ's Sake ) without that Condition . Animad . Without what Condition that which was required of us by the first Law , or Law of our first Creation ? I deny that ; for without Innocency , without the Image of God ( which consists in Righteousness and true Holiness ) none are accepted of God , though it is true , we are forgiven for Christ's sake , through Faith & Repentance of 〈◊〉 ●st before , but our Acceptance is in the Beloved , not out of him 〈◊〉 in him we have our Redemption & Justification , both from Sin and Condemnation of the Law ; and in him we have restored to us what Adam lost by Transgression , and not only that , but enjoy more Security and Stabillity . And what doth God by his Spirit work in those that are chosen ? but perfect Holiness , yea , he will ordain Peace for us ; for he hath wrought all our Works in us , Isa. 26. 12. page 23. Also it is an Untruth , That the Perfection of the Quakers doth quite overthrow all this which the Apostle teacheth , pag. 23. for the real Quaker is of the Apostle's Mind , that Christ came both to condemn Sin in the Flesh , to redeem us from ALL Iniquity , to fulfil the Righteousness of the Law in us , who walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit , that so we might be delivered from ALL Condemnation . And also it is unjustly inferred from our Opinion , That we have no need of such Grace or Christ's Redemption ( that is of any from Christ as without ) whereby we should be justified and saved ; and as untrue , that the Righteousness of God or of Faith in Opposition to Works , is below that of ours ; for in the Gospel which is the Power of God , is his Righteousness revealed from Faith to Faith , his Parenthesis [ from Christ as without ] is needle●s and impertinent seeing neither Christ nor his saving Grace are divided , whether without or within or both , and the same Grace , Virtue , Spirit , Life and Redemption that was in Christ , as without , is received from the same Christ , as within . Object . But if Christ's Redemption lay altogether where they place it , in bringing M●● off from Sin and Vnrighteousness unto Holiness and Perfection , even such as to live without Sin in this World , then Redemption cannot be Vniversal , page 23. Animad . Here we must distinguish to shew how groundless this Objection is ; for , 1 st . His Redemption is Universal for all Mankind , as it is in him , respecting his being an universal Sacrifice , and Propitiation by his Death and Blood for all mankind ; while we were Enemies Christ died ; God was in Christ reconciling the World to himself ; the Price is universal . But 2 dly . It is they who only believe in him , that receive this Redemption , and they , who are not only reconciled through his Death , but also saved by his Life , who by him have received the Attonement or Peace made by him , so that though the Redemption and Price , as in Christ or on his Part be universal , yet the End thereof is not received by all , but only by those who believe and live unto him ; and so the Glory of our Redemption & Salvation we ascribe unto him , who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all Iniquity , which answereth the End , and manifesteth the compleatness of that Redemption , for which Christ gave himself . Object . I Do not think that the Quaker alone is in the Dark about this matter , yet these Men I count here are most of all out , they look upon the Works of Christ's Redemption , to be the Work of Christ within , so they speak and so they think altogether , and then wilfully confound Sanctification and Redemption . Animad . This is a Mistake , we do not confound them , yet must confess they are received together , as inseparable , where Christ is made unto any , Wisdom , Righteousness , Sanctification and Redemption ; for the receiving Redemption through his Blood , even the Forgiveness of Sins cannot be without Sanctification which is both gradually carried on and effected by the Work of Christ within , although I do confess , Redemption was manifestly or publickly set forth and declared by Christ , as without in his Sufferings , Death and Blood , as the Introduction and Preparation of the Way into the New Covenant , he consecrated and set open the New and Living Way through the Vail , that is to say , his Flesh. Object . The Quaker doth place Christ's Redemption in bringing us up to these Terms , the Performance whereof is indeed our Gospel , Perfection ; but he is here so miserably out , that he both mistakes the Termes or this Perfection , as if it were no less then the fulfilling of every Jot of the Law it self , and also contradicts himself in the best Tenet he hath . Animad . Though we confess Christ R●demption to be twofold , both as in him and in us , respect●ng his Fulfilling the Law , his suffering for us , as also his fulfilling the Righteousness of the Law in us , yet our Accuser is herein either over●een in wording his Matter , or mistaken in the Matter it self ; for , 1 st . We place not Christ's Redemption in bringing us to fulfil every jot of the Law it self ; for much of it is abolished , as the litteral and shadowy Part , though the Substance thereof remains , not to be made void through Faith , but established , yet this we have not obtained , either by our own Strength or Imitation of the Letter , but through the Righteousness of Faith in Christ , bringing us up to the Word of Faith in our Hearts , to obey it and do it , so that our Redemption by him , is not to serve in the oldness of the Letter , which made nothing perfect , but in the Newness of the Spirit , which perfectly sanctifies . 2 dly . And in this we do not think our selves out , but in , even the Truth ; and within ; even in the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus ; not out in the Letter , but within in the Spirit ; not out in the Righteousness of the Law ( which Paul calls his own ) but within in the Righteousness of Faith , walking in the Spirit . 3 dly . And herein we are not conscious of Self contradiction in any of our Tenets , much less in the best , this Objection is taken off by our confessing Vniversal Grace and Redemption in Christ towards all , and for all Mankind , and yet this Grace and Redemption not taking effect in all , but only in them who believe and repent , which Men are not irresistably , forced to , but generally called and 〈◊〉 to , Faith being also offered unto all by Christ , and the World being reproved of their Sin of Unbelief by the Spirit of Truth . Sect. XIII . It is true what he saith , viz. Our Divines we call orthodox do generally stumble upon this same Stone , in their D●nyal of Christ's Redemption to be Vniversal ; that he hath procured that all may be saved if they believe and repent , which are our new Terms , unless he hath procured also that they believe and repent , but it is the Elect only do believe and repent , and therefore they hold Redemption only of the Elect. Animad . 'T is very true there are too many that stumble about this and deny Christ's Universal Redemption and the Sufficiency thereof , and so oppose the general Extent of saving Grace , partially limiting and restraining the universal Sense and intent of those Testimonies of Scripture , which assert that Christ gave himself a Ransom for all , and that by the Grace of God he tasted Death for every Man , &c. these they confine only to the Elect ; herein they are not Orthodox , but are stumbling in the dark . Object . Let the Quaker then know , it is not Christ's bringing Man up to the Terms of God , but his bringing down God to the Terms of Man , that is such as are suitable to his fallen State , wherein the great Work he hath done for us is to be fixed . page 25. Animad . Truly the Quaker doth not know how to own this Doctrine in the Termes of it , on either Hand as it is stated ; for Christ came to bring Man up to God , and those Tearms that he hath tendered in Christ for Life and Salvation , are his Tearms ; and God was in Christ reconciling the World to himself , though it was God's free Love thus far to condescend in the Son of his Love for Man's Restoration , yet Man must also be brought up to meet God in his own Covenant of Life in Christ , who is the Mediator , not to bring God down to the Tearms of Fallen Man , but as a Mediator which is not of one , but betwixt two , both to bring God's Love and evidence his Kindness to man , and also to restore Man out of his Fallen Estate into Covenant and Reconciliation with God , so as God and his Creature meet in his Son Christ Jesus , who is the Son of his Love. Seeing it is confest , page 25. Our Faith and Repentance are a Fruit of his Spirit , They must be real and true , such as admit not of the Mixture of Sin nor of the Continuance thereof . Object . As for his saying , It is true , that no Men but sin , and it is true what they s●y , the regenerate sin not , the Scriptures say both . Animad . Why are we then so much opposed and striven with ? either for holding this Perfection , or that some Men sin not , which we see not consistant with [ no Man but sins ] The Scriptures say both ; what ? that there is none but he may sin , and yet he that is born of God cannot sin ; these then must both be considered with reference unto two Dispensations , Estates or Degrees , otherwise it would render the Scripture inconsistant , but the Scripture cannot be broken . Object . The Child of God sins not , so as that Sin hath Dominion over him when he sinneth , page 25. Animad . This still giveth too much Liberty , and reflects upon the Child of God contrary to the Apostle John's Testimony of him , 1 John 3. & 5. 18. Psal. 119. 1 , 2 , 3. Object . The prevailing Interest of his Soul is for God above the Flesh and the World , and so long he is right in God's Sight ; right Righteous , or perfect according to the Law of Grace , although there be a Thousand Things wherein he might do more Good , or less Evils then he doth , and so is Imperfect , Vnrighteous and a manifold Sinner , &c. page 25. Animad . This is still worse and worse , and a gross Reflection upon the Child of God in this latter Part , which is inconsistant with the former , and to me appears no other then Confusion , which is a Fruit of Sin and Transgression ; for , that the Child of God should be thus Righteous and Perfect according to the Law of Grace , which is Perfect , Pure and Holy , and yet be chargeable with a Thousand Things wherein he might do more Good , or less Evil then he does ; this appears very Unnatural , as well as Inconsistant . That We plead Justification , according to some Law ; that we are Innocent , according to that Law , page 25 Is true , and that is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ , the Law of Faith , the Law of ●r●ce , the Law of the New Covenant , which admits not of the Continuance of these ( or any ) Evils , he seems to accuse the Child of God with . Object . This being seen , they come on too fast that they sin not , before they have learned to distinguish between Law and Law , Righteousness and Righteousness , Justification and Justification , Sin and Sin , page 25 , 26. Animad . Though we do not judge it necessary for the Child of God to learn all this Man's Distinctions , yet we cannot own his Charge , that we come on too fast , as not to sin ; for we know , though it be an Estate attainable , yet it is not by making haste , nor by Man's own Willing or Running , but by a Dependence on the Grace of God ; and it is sufficient for us , that we have experimentally learned to distinguish what is necessary , both in our spiritual Travail , and conducing to a happy End , which is a REAL RIGHTEOVSNESS and JVSTIFICATION according to the Law of Faith and Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus , partaken of and enjoyed within . Sect. XIV . I must say with them where they have our Divines on the blind Side , they are justified according to the Law of Faith , or as they are judged at the Throne of Grace , but no Flesh living can be justified according to the Law of Works . Animad . But then he keeps not to this , but varies with his [ but they do sin . ] they are Vnrighteous ; expl●ins this Law of Works to be at the Ba●r of the Ten Commandments , whereas , though I grant , that by the Law of Works no Flesh living can be justified , with all its own Endeavours of Conformity thereto , because of it self it still fails , yet I can never grant , that the Law of Faith will suffer us to continue in Sin , or be Unrighteous ; nor yet that the Apostle intends by the Law of Works , the Substance of the Ten Commandments , to wit , Real LOVE to God , and one to another ; I cannot believe , that he excluded this from a Justified Estate , but rather the Shadowy Part , and Jewish Imitation of the Letter , without Faith in Christ , an absolute Justified State being according to the Law of Faith ; herein we must differ ; but again , he assents to the Truth , viz. Those that will follow Christ shall argue as strictly ; if we be justified by Grace , then we must be righteous and perfect , according to the Law of it ; the Orthodox are quite out , that ☞ will have any justified without a Righteousness that is perfect , according to the Law that justifies him . Animad . Oh! That he were but well accquainted with this Law of Faith , and would keep to it , then we should not have this strugling and turning about to uphold Sin , or the Breach of the Ten Commandments in Justified Persons , wherein he goes about again , viz. Object . The Quaker is quite out , that will have his Righteousness perfect according to the Ten Commandments , which doth not justifie him , page 26. Animad . No the sincere Quaker is within , who owns the Life of God and Christ in his Heart ; and knoweth that God requires perfect LOVE with ALL the Heart and Soul , &c. and this in the New Covenant ▪ not to make void the Law of the Ten Commandments , as to the Substance and End thereof ; for LOVE is the Fulfilling of the Law ; the Commandment is Love out of a pure Heart ; and do we make void the Law through Faith ? No , we establish it , yet it is neither meerly by the ten Commandments , nor by any of our own outward or litteral Observatinon t●ereof that we are justified , but by him that enables and strengthens us to the Real and Spiritual Obedience of Faith ▪ Now the Righteousness of God without the Law is manifested , being testified by the Law and the Prophets , see Rom. 3. 21. to the End. Concess . The lover of Truth and Mediocrity will have every man have the Righteousness of a perfect Heart for his Justification , and yet no Man be justified but by the Grace of God , through Redemption which we have in Christ Jesus , page 26. Animad . I wish this Man and all others , that oppose or dispute against us , were such Lovers of Truth , and Possessors of this Righteousness of a PERFECT Heart , so much pretended to and talked of , and so little experienced amongst Men ; and that this Redemption which the Saints had in Christ Jesus , were experienced and livingly possessed ; this would end the Controversie about Notions and Opinions . It is true , that Pardon of Sin and Justification may in some Sense be distinguished , though not divided ; there is Pardon of Sin and Transgressions that were under the first Testament , or of Sins past : When the Act of Faith is known in the Blood of Christ , which is in Order to Justification being some Degree of it ; there is a further Degree of Justificat●on , more absolute , not only from all those Things from which we could not be justified by the Law of Moses ▪ but also in a constant Perseverance in the Grace and Goodness of God in Christ , and faithful Obedience to him , through the Spirit which is revealed in us . Again we know no Opinion of ours that leads th●se Friends called Quakers from the Spirit and Life , back to the Letter and Flesh , and Ministration of Death , but to bring men forward through the Law to be dead unto it , and through the Sentence of Death , to the Ministration of Life , which exceeds in Glory , that under this they might live unto God Though I own the Apostle's distinguishing between the Letter and the Spirit , the Law of the Spirit of Life , and the Law of sin and Death ; the old Covenant , and the new ; the Law of Faith , and the Law of Works , yet his deeming the ●aw written in stone , the Law of sin and Death , page 27. In this I am not satisfied ; for the Apostle spe●ks of two contrary Laws ; the Law in his Mind which was holy , and the other Law in his Members which rebelled against the Law , and led him captive : Now I dare not exclude the Substance of what was contained in the Law written in Stone , as not being contained in that Law in Paul's Mind ; though that Law in his Mind had a greater Effect and Force upon him then the Law without ever had before ; and when he said , The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ hath made me free from the Law of sin and Death ; We may not understand him to be made free from answering the Righteousness of Love to God required in the Law written in the Tables of Stone ; so , though it was in a more effectual and lively Manner , written in the fleshly Tables of the Heart , wherein it was renewed and became a New Commandment , though in it Self an old Commandment , yet this Commandment , as renewed and made lively in the Soul remains still , Love out of a Pure Heart , and is ●ve● that Commandment which is exceeding broad . Sect. XV. The Law of Grace does require a sincere walking before God in all his Commandments ; and the Spirit of God doth certainly help us so far , as we sin not against that Sincerity , page 28. Animad Why then should we fall short of our Duty , or of Perfect Obedience ? Can we desire better Help then that of the Spirit ? Object . But the Spirit is not given to bring us up to the Terms of the Law , and that we should not sin at all , page 28. Animad . Not ? That 's strange ; is not the Spirit given to lead us into all Truth ? throughly to sanctifie , justifie , & c ? what can be requir'd more then to be in ALL Truth for a perfect sinless State. Object . The Galatians were seduced to the Opinion , that they must keep Moses Law , or else they could not be saved , and this is their seeking to be made perfect by the Flesh ; the Flesh and Nature are synoynmous Terms ; the Works of the Law , as given by Moses , are called Flesh , pag. 28. Animad . 1st . The Galatians then were seduced from the Spirit wherein they had begun , to seek to be made perfect by the Flesh , which cannot be justly chargeable upon us , who seek Perfection by the Spirit ; desiring to continue and walk therein for that End. 2 dly . The Apostle doth not oppose Perfection , but reprove their Foolishness for seeking it the wrong way , viz. in the Flesh and not in the Spirit 3 dly . Not all the Works of the Law given by Moses are called Flesh or Nature , but such Works , as the Galatians were turned again into ( from the Spirit ) such as were but shadowy ceremonial and elementary , and such as stood in Fleshly Observations , as the observing of Dayes , Meats , Drinks , dive●s Washings , weak and beggerly Elements of the World , Circumcision , &c. which the Apostle so much argues against . 4 thly . ●f any turn from the Spirit , and then seek to be made perfect by their Fleshly lmitation of the Law , or Voluntary observation of the most weighty Precepts thereof , without the Spirit 's Guidance and Assistance ; this is no better then a seeking to be made perfect by the Flesh ; and short of that which the Apostle travailed for on the behalf of the Galatians , which was , that Christ might be formed in them , which is not a Fleshly Birth in the Shadow , but a Spiritual Birth in the Life and Substance that lives to God for ever . Object . If the Quaker then is come to seek Life by such a following his Light , as must answer the Covenant of Nature it self , that is by a Perfection as is without sin against the Law , he is plainly under the Notion of the Spirit brought at last to the Flesh for what he seeks , page 28. Animad . This is a gross Mistake , and it no Wayes follows from our following the Light of Christ ( for Perfection without sin ) that we must be brought at last to the Flesh for what we seek ; this can be no wayes deducible from our following this Light within : for it is neither Flesh nor Fleshly , but Divine and Spiritual ; and the contrary Inference plainly follows ; for if we walk in the Light , as God is in the Light , then have we Fellowship one with another , and the Blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all Sin ; observe , from all S●n ; what Sin then can remain behind ? Sect. XVI . Object & Concess It seems that these Friends do apprehend that our Doctrine which p●●seth Perf●ction , doth serve for the boistering up Men in their sins , and lull them into security , that though they live and dye in their Wicked●●ss they must be saved ; and this being taught , spiciall among us Protestants , who believe that we are justified by Christ's Righteousness without Works , doth appear very destructive to many Souls , which makes them out of an Intention , which we may suppose zealous for God●ness , and the Promotion of a Good Life , to f●ll on our Divines with so much tragical Exclamation , as they do on this Point , page 28 , 29. Animad . And we have Reason sufficient to exclaim against them on this Point , for indulging and bo●stering up men in their Sins to their Grave ; yea , we may say to their Grave of Perdition ; and what this Man saith , for such their divines , and against Vs for an abuse herein , page 29. will neither clear them , nor prove us guilty of wronging them ; and I wish that he would no further contribute to their Sin in this Point , though yet he himself is not satisfied with those he calls Divines , as appears in divers Passages of his Book , and particularly touching their unsound sense of imputed Righteousness , which he sets aside in the same 29th . page which we are now upon : and I would seriously ask him , if that their unsound Sense of Imputation , doth not give us occasion to witness against them , as too much soothing , or bolstering up men in their Sins ; And if their Sense herein be not repugnant to Christianity ? But to excuse these he calls Divines , he pleads , viz. It is but the same Doctrine of God's abounding free Grace , Mercy and Forgiveness through Christ to poor sinners , that our Divines do bring against the Doctrine of Perfection ( setting the unsound sense of Imputed Righteousness aside ) which Paul preached and pleaded against those , who would bring in the Work● of the Law for their Justification . Animad . This will neither cure the Disease of those Divines , nor free them from our Charge , nor yet reconcile their Doctrine herein to the Apostle Paul's ; for Paul did not preach the abounding of free Grace , &c. against the Doctrine of Perfection , nor against the Saints living without Sin , but the plain contrary , as appe●rs , Rom. 6. Even so we should also walk in Newness of Life , ver . 4. Knowing this , that our old man is crucified with him , &c. ver . 6. And shall we sin because we are not under the Law , but under Grace ? God forbid , ver . 15. See the Chapter throughout , 't is very full to our Purpose , See also Rom. 5. 17 , 20 , 21. What 's more evident then that the Doctrine of the Apostle , and the Nature of the Grace of God , are against the continuance of Sin in any of those that come to dye with Christ , and to live under Grace , and to partake of the abounding of Grace toward [ and in ] them . There are tow Things particularly our Divines teach , The one is , that notwithstanding Grace be imperfect in this life , there is no Man may sin for all that , in any the least Thing whatsoever , that is , though our Holiness be imperfect , yet is it our Duty to be perfect , and we are still to be pressed to go on to Perfection : The other is , That a State of Grace will not stand with any Sin in Dominion , that is , that whosoever doth willingly and wilfully live in any known sin , without Repentance unto Death , he cannot be saved . An. No doubt but this Person hath here made the best he can of a bad Cause , as we have Reason to deem it , but is far enough from clearing those Divines from the Charge that 's laid against their Doctrine , as Sin pleasing , or soothing and bolstering up Men in their Sins , &c. For though it 's true they seem to preach down every Sin , and to preach up perfect Obedience , as our Duty , and to press Men to go on to Perfection , yea , and that a State of Grace will not stand with any Sin in Dominion : What Encouragement can they hereby minister , for such Duty and Pressing on to Perfection ? when they perswade People that what they preach and press them unto , it not attainable ; as to tell them , 't is their Duty to be perfect , and not to sin at all , but 't is impossible to attain that State : Grace is imperfect in this Life , &c. this is not Yea and Amen ; if they were real and preach'd the word of Faith , they durst never put such faithless Thoughts into the Minds of People , like as to put them upon a War without an Enemy , but first disarm them with such an Unbelie● , or Dispair of a Conquest , whereas if they faithfully preached perfect Obedience , &c. and believed what they preached , they would sincerely endeavour their Eucouragement by exciting them to believe in and depend upon the Grace and Power of God in Christ , which is stronger then the Devil , that they might experience , That greater is he that is in us , then he that is in the World ; and not tell them , that Grace and Holiness are imperfect in this Life , and no Men but that he sins so long as he lives ; no not the best of God's Children , yet a state of Grace will not stand with any sin in Domini●● . Why then must Sin have any Place of Continuance ? shall God's Children ( by the Grace ) either have Dominion or Power over Sin , and yet suffer Sin alwayes to have any Being or Prevalency in them ? can this either consist with a State of Grace , or their Sincerity ? No sure [ The Matter is sufficiently answered before ] shall we have Dominion over such an Enemy , so far as that he is conquered , slain and ca●●ut , and yet after●a●ds suffer him to rise again , and lead us captive in any Thing all our Dayes ? God's Children and People , who have been throughly experienced in the Lamb's War , have otherwise obtained the Conquest and Dominion ( at that dear Rate ) then so easily to part with it , or give their Power or Service to such a conquered Enemy , as the Devil , who is the Author of all Sin. It is true as the Man saith , page 29. That there are many practical Books of those called Divines , wherein Vniversal Obedience is both press●d and given , as the chiefe●● Note of an Vpright Man , and of that Faith which is saving . This is true , and no doubt but in former Times this Universal Obedience was preached and urged , with more Faith and Sincerity then is now in many that pretend to preach it , but do it in that overly and faithless Manner , that it hath no lively Impression upon the Hearers Consciences , as to evidence them truly to believe endeavour or expect such an Universal Obedience to all God's Requirings , in the Covenant of Grace ; but rather , many do spoile and marr their preaching Obedience , by their preaching up Imperfection , and Sin Term of Life ; and such preaching hath more abounded ( yea been too much upheld in this Nation ) of late years in despite against the Quakers , and in Contempt against the Doctrine of Perfection : The Presbyter Priests and some others have filled the Nation with their Doctrine of the Impossibility of Perfection , or a sinless State , to render it not attainable , wherein , though they have done it the more eagerly to shame and odifie the Quakers in the Peoples ●yes , their Doctrine tends to debase many to Hell , having hardened Men in Sin , and strengthned the Hands of Evil doers , and made many Hypocrites , for which they have a sad Account to give in the great Day of God Almighty . Object . Will it not indeed suffice , that a Man is uprights before God , in his Desires and Endeavours after Perfection , that is , the having Respect to all his Commandments , unless he also be perfect and his Works overtake his Will ? what then shall become of the Generàtion of the most just ? An. 1st . The Des●●● and Endeavours [ only ] of the Upright Man do not suffice 〈◊〉 , but his receiving the Answer , or Thing desired and endeave●● after . 2 dly . Doth the ●●ght Man sincerely desire , and endeavour after such a Perfe●●n , as that of Universal Obedience to all Christ's , Commands , and yet still his Works fall short of his Desire , or not overtake his Will ? how should that be ? doth not God hear the Prayers , and grant the Requests of the Upright ? Yea sure , they shall not want for any good thing , who walk in their Uprightness and Integrity before him : I cannot yet apprehend , that the great Inconvenience which hath been charged as the Consequence of their Doctrine , ( who preach up the Continuance of Sin , and a Falling short in Duty ) is yet wiped off , by all this man's Pleading to excuse and salve the Matter . Sect. XVII . And now whereas he pretends to discover several Inconveniencies that follow our Doctrine , and bids let us see , whether they do not require more heed , page 30. Let us then see and heed , what Inconveniencies he supposeth do follow our Doctrine . Object . First then , where they say , our Doctrine doth lead Men into Security , Remisness of Life , Neglect of their Duty , a sinful Course ; how must their Doctrine hurle Men into Despair , and lead them by that to the casting off the whole Care of God , and their own Souls together ? pag. 30. An. No such Inconvenience doth follow our Doctrine , as either the hurling Men into Despair , or leading them to the casting off the Care of God and their Souls ; for there is no Cause to Despair of what 's possible or attainable [ through divine Assistance ] as is confest , to live without Sin , or to keep the Commandments of God , and so to enter into Heaven , is possible or attainable , through the Assistance of Grace ; Men may despair upon Impossibilities , or the Aprehensions thereof , but they have no Cause on the contrary : We both testifie unto true Faith and Hope in God through Christ , and his Name and Power , to enable the Soul to resist and overcome Temptations ; as also we preach up God's Love , and Care over his Children , for their Safety and Preservation out of Sin and Evil ; and that even he who is the God of Peace , according to his Care over his People , doth ( in his own due Time ) tread Satan under their Feet , by his great Power , which they believe in and partake of . Object . If it will not serve a Man for his Acceptance with God , that he is sincere in his Desires and Endeavours of walking before him , unless he attain to Perfection , or to a Life that ●s wholely without sin in this World ; then must the Heart of the most holy , and mortified Man upon Earth be quite broken , and discouraged for ever : There is Mercy with thee that thou mayst be feared , saith David , page 30. An. Sincere Desires and Endeavours of walking with the Lord God , are acceptable to him , they being begotten by his own Spirit , but it is a Mistake , that they fall short of attaining to Perfection , or to a Life without Sin [ in this World ] who follow such Desires and Endeavours . As also it is a gross Mistake , That the most holy and mortified Man upon Earth , did either fall short of such Perfection in this Wordl● , or that he must have his Heart quite broke , or discouraged forever on this account , page 30. Besides Thousands do experience the contrary , that our Doctrine of sinless Perfection , hath no such Tendence nor Effect , as this of Despair unjustly surmised to be the Consequence thereof : Besides , I suppose it is as hard a Matter for this Man to prove , what Sin or Sins the most holy and mortified of God's Servants and People lived in all their Life time , as to evince when , where , or how they came to be perfectly cleansed , or throughly purged after their decease : For our Parts , we do not believe the Pope's Doctrine of a Purgatory after Death . If God were not Good and Mercifull to consider Man's Frailty , to pardon his shortness and Imperfections , and bear with him , we should not fear him . that is , worship or serve him ; for it were to no purpose to go about it , seeing we could never please him . An. Herein he saith true , but then God's Goodness and Mercy in thus condescending , and pardoning any such shortness or Imperfections ( which when confessed and repented of , or where the sincere Desires and Endeavours are alive ) tends to engage the Creature the more to fear , serve and worship him ; and to bring Man nearer and nearer to God , with whom there is Mercy , that he may be feared ; and the Fear of the Lord doth keep the Heart clean . Object . Alas ! that these Folks did but know what they do , when they bring in such Doctrine , who themselves must tremble * to be judged by it . O ye foolish Galatians ! who hath bewitched you , that you should depart from that Comfort and Peace , which some of you , I believe sometime had in believing and trusting in Christ altogether for your Pardon , and Reconciliation with God ; that you should be brought now to the Wo●ks of the Law , page 30. An. The Man runs altogether upon his own reiterated Mistake in the State of our Doctrine and Case ; we know what we do , and that we are none of those foolish Galatians in what we hold ; we draw none from the Spirit , to be made perfect in the Flesh , but do both direct Men to their Beginning in the Spirit , and to persevere therein , to walk in the Spirit , obey the Spirit unto Mortification and Sanctification , &c. For if ye walk in the Spirit , then are ye not under the Law ; And we through the Spirit have waited for the Hope of Righteousness by Faith ; and through the Spirit do still believe , trusting in Christ for all the Good , the Sufficiency , the Strength , the Joy , the Soul's Comfort and Peace , that we daily receive ; for without ( or separate from ) him , we can do nothing , yet all things through Christ that strengthens us Object . page 30. Is there any indeed of you think that you are able , and do continue in all things that are written in the Book of the Law , or in all things that are written in the Tables of your Hearts , to do them ? And are you ignorant , that upon that account and that alone , that none do , or are able to do so , the Apostle tells you , as many as are of the Works of the Law , are under the Curse . An. A mistake still , the Apostle no where tells us , that none ( which as well concludes Christians as others ) do or are able to continue in all things , that are written in the Tables of their Hearts to do them ( as for all things written in the Book of the Law outward , they are not required of us ) Surely the Apostle's Testimony was , that they could do all Things through Christ that strengthens them ; and it was neither Circumcision nor Uncircumcision that availed any Thing , but the keeping of the Commandments ; to conclude , that none are able to continue in the Law of Christ written in their Hearts , is contrary to his Doctrine ; for abiding in his Love , and his saying , If ye love me keep my sayings or Commandments ; and in this is the Love of God manifest , that we keep his Commandments ; and his Commandments are not grievous , but joyous unto us . Object . page 31. Alas Sirs ! what mean you when we are under the Ministration of the New Testament , which brings the Spirit and Liberty ( where the Spirit is there is Liberty ) and Righteousness ( for by the Law of Faith the Christian hath a Righteousness to plea● , and to be justified by ) and so Life ; you should be ready to return into a Jewish or Natural Bondage , to seck for it , from that only , which can bring Death , and is the Ministration of Sin and Condemnation . An. His Sigh [ Alas Sirs ! ] for us , and Consequence upon us , are both groundless and the Consequence of his own Mistake still , as that we are ready to return into a Jewish or Natural Bondage o seek Life from that only which can bring Death , &c. this hath no Truth in it ; we neither seek Life from the Letter which killeth , nor from any Ministration without the Spirit ; nor are we Ministers of the Letter ( nor do we sow to the Flesh ) but Ministers of the Gospel of the Spirit , and of the New Testament , knowing that 't is the Spirit that giveth Life : And if ye through the Spirit do mortifie the Deeds of the Flesh [ or the Fruits thereof , which are corrupt ] then shall ye live . Sect. XVIII . Object . page 31. His other Consequence of our Doctrine is , of Evils more secret and spiritual , much more deadly to the Soul then their ordinary Sins , as Persons wrought over to us , immediately to look on all others at a distance , even to a Contempt of the most grave , serious holy Professors , but as Men altogether in the Dark , without Light or Life , to be separated from , &c. as also Insolence and in finite Presumption , falling into the Condemnation of the Devil ; Pride , spiritual Pride , the most damnable Pride , proud of God's Grace , Monstrous overweening Conceit of a Man's Self , despising , continually censuring and setting at nought of others , &c. An. These are sad Inferences ; we have enough of them ; he should have spared such censuring , whilest he is opposing others for contemning and censuring , but these are no wayes deducible either from our Doctrine or Testimony , which is for a sincere Obedience and real Conformity to Christ Jesus ( and following of ) his Steps , who left no such Example , as either spiritual Pride . Insolence , Presumption or Self-conceit , but of Meekness and Humility , ●et gave true and severe Judgement against Hypocrites . As for the Prudent , the sober and pious among us whom he mentions they see no such Consequence of our Doctrine , as this man suggests , nor any Cause to mourn for any natural Effects of our Testimony ; but rather for their Miscarriages and Abuses , who are disobedient to the Truth thereof ; and for such Professors , as undervalue , pervert and misrepresent that holy Testimony , which God hath committed unto us they are at a real Distance from us , and far from being the most grave , ●erions or holy Professors . It 's true as he saith , That the Way of Christians is to be humble , to debase themselves , to make self of no Reputation ; after the Example of their Lord and Master ; and ( as he saith ) to live altogether on Dependence upon God , each Man in Lowliness of Mind , &c. An. This is the Christianity and Perfection we aim at , and bear witness unto , and which many are pressing towards ; and what better , what more pure and perfect ●tate is desirable , then to live altogether on Dependence upon God ? But how well this Man 's opposing our Doctrine of Perfection and living without Sin , agrees with his Concession , of living altogether on Dependence upon God ; let the serious Reader judge . Object . Last of all , there is that exceeding Danger in the entertainment of that Opinion , that I am afraid at my Heart , it cannot consist with the Grace of God and Justification of a Sinner by Christ ; it is a high Text , that if you be circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing : I am really afraid at my very Heart , Sirs , lest your Case be the very same in Effect , with these , ( viz. ) that of the Galatians and Jews , which was a looking to the Law only for Righteousness ; not to the chief End of it , which was through Conviction of Sin , to drive them to God for his Pardon . An. 1st . Friend , this Fear of thine appears a very dark and groundless Fear ; for first , hast thou not confest , that such a Perfection , as to live without sin , is our Duty . 2dly . That it is not impossible , but that it is possible to attain this state of keeping God's Commandments , and being without sin by Grace , or the special Assistance of God's spirit , page 6 , 7. 3dly . That the Quakers ascribe not to themselves , but to the spirit , the Life , the Power , or to Christ within , all that they do , page 8. Well said , come on , enough to clear the Quakers from giving the occasion of such a Fear concerning them ; do not let such a Fear lie upon thy Heart ; for their Case is far enough from that of the Galatians and Jews , who sought to be made perfect in the Flesh , set up their own Righteousness , being gone from the Spirit and Law of Life within , into the Letter , and Ministration of Death without ; whereas the Quakers Obedience through the Spirit , the Life or Power of Christ within , is no Self-righteousness nor Fleshly Perfection , fetched or sought from the Letter without , but very well , both consistant with , and springing from the Grace of God , the Pardon and Justification of a Sinner by Christ , who is the Author of Eternal Salvation , to all them that obey him ; and is only the Righteousness and Justification of such , who believe in him , obey him , and walk sincerely before him . Object . But you have taken up an Opinion , that the whole Law must be kept [ That 's a Mistake ] that you must live without sin , and unless you come up to this Pitch , you cannot be saved . An. First . It is not our Opinion , that the whole Law must be kept , but 〈◊〉 much of it as God requires , that is what concerns the New Covenant , wherein , God doth both pardon and take away Sin. 2 dly . to ●●ve without iSn , is required in the New Covenant , and is the Effect of Christ's saving Work , who was called JESUS for this Cause , and to fulfil this Promise , namely , He shall save his People from their sins ; and this no wayes hinders our acknowledging him to be our Advocate ; nor yet opposeth that Saying , If any Man sin , we have an Advocate with the Father , even Jesus Christ the Righteous , through whom , both Pardon and Deliverance out of sin is obtained ; for [ If any Man sin ] is no positive Conclusion , that every Man sinneth , or that none of God's People live without Sin , but rather implies , that [ though it be possible that some may si● , ●et they may be holpen , & preserved out of it ] there are or may become that do not sin ; for [ If any man sin ] is not , that [ every Man doth sin . ] As for These Friends ( meaning Quakers ) [ being at the Bar of the Gospel ] they see no Cause , either to look upon themselves , as declining the Grace of the Gospel , or to have forfeited their Interest in that Freedom , which belongs to honest Christian Folks , through thy Redemption that is in Christ Jesus , whatever this Man hath insinuated against them , or charged upon them to the contrary ; nor will they appeal from thes● Terms under which they are brought by Christ [ or from the Terms of the Gospel ] to the Terms of the Law ; neither will they be judged by this Man's Consequences , what Foolishness soever he therein chargeth upon them . The Danger he surmiseth , the sincere Quaker sears not , nor are we ( who are called Quakers ) doubtful what shall become of us before the great Tribunal of God , while we have the Testimony of a good Conscience ; holding our Integrity , and abiding in Christ Jesus , the Son of the Father's Love , in whom we have Access with Boldness unto the Throne of Grace ; knowing also , that he that abides in Christ , sinneth not ; and if our Heart condemn us not , then have we Confidence towards God ; near is he that justifieth , who shall condemn ? who shall lay any thing to the Charge of God's Elect ? It is God that justifieth , unto whom it is said thy People shall be all Righteous . Finished London the 3d. of the 12th . Moneth 1674. G. W. THE END Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65896-e860 Pag. 3 , 4. Pag. 5. pag. 6. pag. 7. pag. 6. pag. 8. pag. 8 , 9. Concess . pag. 8 , 9. pag. 10 , pag. 12. pag. 12 , 13. page 14. Luke 16. 10. see also Mat. 5 10. A plain Concession to truth . pag. 14. pag. 15. pag ibid. page 18. page 18. page 18 , 19. And what he cites is also true , viz. De. Peccato ad Mortem , quoniam non expr●ssum est , possu●t diversa sentiri ; ego autem dico id esse Peccatum , Fid●m quae per Dilectionem operatur , d●serere usque ad Mortem . Concerning Sin unto Death , because it is not express●d , d●vers Things may be thought of it ; but I say , that sin is this , to desert ( or never come up to that Faith which worketh by Love ) unto Death , August . de Con. et Gra. chap. 12. Concess . page 19. Col. 1. 21 , 22. page 24. 1 Pet. 3. 18. Con●ess ▪ pag. 26. Concess . pag. 26. pag. 27. Rom. 7 Concession to Truth . 1 John 1. 7. pag. 29. Rom. 6. 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 11 , 15 , 22. & 5. 17 , 20 , 21. His other Excuse for their divines pag. 29. Though 't is trnc , herein this Author seems to d●sown them , by ●nfessing a Possibility to live without sin through the assistance of God's holy Spirit , page 7 , 8. yet this Man bord●rs too near their Doctrine for sin , in not believing nor confessing to any of the Saints keeping Christ's Commandments , or their perfect Obedience , but in arguing for the contrary , which reflects Sin and Imperfection on all the Saints of God and true Christians . pag. 29 , 30. A supposed Objection yet not inconsistant with our Principle . * Contrary to 1 John 4. 17 , 18. This is a plain Untruth . Concess . to Truth , page 32. page 32. page 33. 
A65888	----	A sober expostulation with some of the clergy against their pretended convert Francis Bugg his repeated gross abuse of the people called Quakers, in his books and pamphlets, viz., his New Rome arrainged, History of Quakerism, Second summons, Picture of Quakerism, and other pamphlets which may serve to invalidate the authority of the snake in the grass, as it refers to his books. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1697 Approx. 215 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 78 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65888 Wing W1959 ESTC R20305 12292023 ocm 12292023 58916 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65888) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58916) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:24) A sober expostulation with some of the clergy against their pretended convert Francis Bugg his repeated gross abuse of the people called Quakers, in his books and pamphlets, viz., his New Rome arrainged, History of Quakerism, Second summons, Picture of Quakerism, and other pamphlets which may serve to invalidate the authority of the snake in the grass, as it refers to his books. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [10], 144 p. Printed for T. Sowle ..., London : 1697. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to George Whitehead. cf. NUC pre-1956. Errata: p. [2] Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-05 Melanie Sanders Sampled and proofread 2005-05 Melanie Sanders Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Sober Expostulation With some of the CLERGY , Against their Pretended Convert FRANCIS BVGG His Repeated Gross Abuse of the People called QVAKERS , in his Books and Pamphlets ; viz. His New Rome Arraigned . History of Quakerism . Second Summons . Picture of Quakerism . And other Pamphlets ; which may serve to Invalidate the Authority of the Snake in the Grass , as it refers to his Books . He that inventeth a Slander , is a Fool , Prov. 10. 18. A Fool rageth , and is confident , Prov. 14. 16. He flattereth himself in his own Eyes , until his Iniquity is found to be hateful . Psal. 36. 2. London , Printed for T. Sowle , in White-Hart-Court in Gracious-Street ; and at the Bible in Leaden-hall-Street , near the Market , 1697. ERRATA . PAGE 2. l. 23. for Principle read Principal . p. 6. l. 4. r. to his p. 7. l. 28. f. Antimonarchicate r. Antimonarchical . p. 8. l. 14. f. whither r. whether . p. 30. l. 13. f. Letters r. Letter . p. 31. l. 27. f. for r. so . p. 32. l. 22 , 23. ( i. e. the first impression ) add a Parenthesis . p. 52. l. 11. f. Thundred r. Thundring . ibid. l. 31. f. in r. to . p. 54. l. 21. f. Nature r. Name . ibid. l. 24. f. Relation r. Relative . p. 59. l. 7. f. snared r. skared . p. 70. l. 2. f. Detection r. Detected . p. 76. l. 8. f. Again r. Against . p. 93. l. 14. f. placed r. places . p. 98. l. 10. add in the Margent , See p. 104. p. 104. l. 20. add in the Margent , See p. 98. p. 108 . l. 22. f. Belief r. Relief . p. 115. l. 24. f. who r. whom . p. 120. l. 2. f. 's r. see . ibid. l. 18. f. Witness r. Wretch . TO THE READER . Impartial Reader , THE Ensuing Answers were severally drawn up , soon after the several Books and Pamphlets of Francis Bugg ( referred to ) were Extant , but the Printing thereof delayed thus long . 1. That we might see what more he would bring forth , be being a Contentious Scribler against us , that they might be all Remarked , if he brought forth any more of like Import . 2. His other Books and Pamphlets published before these against us , were mostly so fully Answer'd , and his Apostacy , Malice and Abuses so fully and clearly Detected , that his evil and fruitless Attempts are of so little Credit with all Sober , Indifferent Persons , that have viewed them , that we thought our selves the less obliged to use Expedition in the Publication of particular Answers to each . 3. We finding him not able to Clear himself , from his many Lies , Slanders , Absurdities and Contradictions Charged upon him in our former Answers , nor to make any Rational Replies , Answers or Rejoinders thereunto , but rather to repeat and impose his former Gross Abuses instead of fair Proofs , that the less Credit they are of , the less we are affected therewith , and the less concerned to follow him with expeditious Answers or Replies . And the Reasons why this present Expostulation is divulged , is , 1. Because we have found no Redress upon our Application and Complaints ( of his foul Abuses ) to those of the Clergy , whom he seems to Esteem and Affect , but that they have rather Strengthened and Incouraged him in his perverse Gainsaying , and injurious Abuses and Misrepresentations of the People called Quakers , either by their esteeming him an Eminent Convert , or giving Certificates in Applause of his Work against the said People . 2. Because the said F. Bugg seems to have that Esteem with some of the more Envious Persons , even of the Clergy , that his Vnjust and Confuted Authority is made use of , and quoted against us , to Reproach us , particularly in that most Virulent , Malicious and Persecuting Book , stiled , The Snake in the Grass . 3. Because he does not only boast and flatter himself in the Commendation and Encouragement of those his Ministers concerned , but also has most presumptuously and unwarrantably proceeded to divulge an Impeachment on behalf of the Commons of England , against our Yearly Meeting ; also very imperiously ( from his own Arbitrary , Vsurped Authority ) given out divers Summons and Threats against particular Persons of our Friends , who are the King 's Peaceable Subjects : And that the Abominable Pride , Presumption and Imperiousness of this Pretended Convert may be the more obvious , I shall here insert one of his late Summons's , sent in Writing to several Places and Persons named , as followeth . A Third Summons . TO John Hubbard , Thomas Brewster , John Haws , Edward Dikes , Sen. John Peacock of St. Ives , John Cranwell , Joseph Carver , Samuel Hallifield , William Mead , Simon Burgis , Ambrose Friend , John Knight , Hearers among the Quakers , to bring forth George Whitehead , to stand to his own Proposition in his Printed Sheet deliver'd to the Parliament , Anno 1698. Intituled , The Quakers Vindication , &c. p. 4. or else your selves to give me a Meeting , and timely Notice thereof , within Twenty Miles of my Dwelling , and then and there openly and publickly justifie the Books of your Teachers , or if not possible for you so to do , then to Condemn the Errors contained in them , for the prevention of further Controversie thereabout , if not , then know that my Hand will be still heavier upon you , if God permit , July 20. 1696. Fra. Bugg , Sen. Now I shall not need to make any long Remark upon this Summons , the Matter bespeaks it self , and what Pride , Presumption and Insolency it proceeded from in the Man , thus to assume to himself a Power to Issue out such a Mandatory and Menacing Summons , to so many Persons in divers Counties and Places , as London , Suffolk , Norfolk , Norwich , Huntingtonshire , ( where the Persons summoned severally reside ) to bring forth G. W. or themselves , to meet him within Twenty Miles of his Dwelling , and hereof not to fail at their Peril , that is , of his heavier Hand upon them See the Ambitions Presumption of this Imperious Person ; he can presume to Impeach Men in Behalf of the Commons of England ; he can Issue out high Mandatory and Menacing Summons in his own Name to the King's Subjects , to bring forth such a Person as he has most spight against , or to appear themselves before his own exalted Highness , upon Pain of bringing them under his heavy Hand , being threatned that his Hand will be still heavier upon them , but all this without producing any Parliamentary , or other Legal Authority for such Impeachment , Summons , or Threat . If F. Bugg , and his Abettors of the Clergy , had such occasions of Advantage against any of us called Quakers , which thus affects the Civil Government , tending to Infringe the Liberties and Properties of the Subjects , I am apt to think we should be rendred highly Obnoxious and Arbitrary , if not Guilty of High Misdemeanour ; but I leave that Matter to the Impartial and Judicious to judge of ; as I owe him no Ill-will , I would not hurt his Person , or render Evil for Evil , or Revenge upon him . His Commanding the Persons Summon'd to bring forth G. W. to stand to his own Proposition mentioned , is a meer empty , idle Boast , false and groundless Crack and Vapour ; he knows in his own Conscience , and 't is well known to many in this City of London , how I followed and sought to have a Meeting and Meetings with him , at sundry places in this City , in the Year 1693. 12th Month , to prove and make good my said Proposition , but still he shun'd it , he shifted and evaded Meeting with me on that Account , as is more fully evinced in my Answer , Intituled , The Counterfeit Convert , Preface . Notwithstanding I made divers Overtures for a Meeting with him before a few Moderate Persons , to hear and witness what passed ; but his shuffling and shifting , to stave me off from pursuing my own Proposal fairly made , are too large to be here rehearsed ; but my said Proposal is fully proved to hand in my Answers , which therefore I refer the Reader unto , for further Information in this Case , viz. 1. The Quakers Vindication . 2. The Counterfeit Convert . 3. The Answer to F. Bugg's Presumptuous Impeachment . 4. By the Two Letters herein to his Teachers . By a Servant of Jesus Christ , G. W. The CONTENTS . Chap. I. A Copy of a Letter to William Smithies , Minister of Cripplegate , London . II. A Copy of a Letter to Isaac Archer , Vicar of Mildenhall , Suffolk . III. Another to the said Isaac Archer . IV. A Sober Expostulation with those Persons of the Clergy , concerned in giving Countenance to F. Bugg , against the People called Quakers ; containing an Answer to several of their Certificates in his Behalf , and also to several additional and repeated Abuses , in the Second Edition of his New Rome Arraigned . V. A Brief Answer to F. Bugg's pretended Brief History of Quakerism , stiled , The Quakers set in their True Light. VI. A Brief Answer to F. Bugg's Two Printed Papers , dated March , 1696. VII . A Brief Answer and Reply to F. Bugg's Second Summons ( as he directs it ) to the City of Abel , on 2 Sam. 20. VIII . An Appendix to the Controversie , in certain Positions of the sincere Belief and Christian Doctrine of the People called Quakers , in Opposition to the Misrepresentations and Calumnies cast upon them by Apostates , and other Adversaries , in their Books and Pamphlets . A Brief Advertisement to the Reader upon Fr. Bugg's Book , Stiled , The Picture of Quakerism , &c. CHAP. I. A Copy of a Letter to William Smithies , Minister of Cripplegate , LONDON . Friend , William Smithies . BEcause of the Character and Reputation thou hast , as a Person of Charity and Moderation , and also of thy Desire that I might signifie my Mind to thee in Writing , I was the more willing to give thee this following Information and Advertisement . The Occasion of our late Proposals and Complaint to thy self , concerning F. Bugg , was the Incouragement and Strength , which we understand , he has taken from thee , and some others of the Clergy , to Commit and Persist in his intolerable Abuse and Scandal of an Innocent People , commonly called Quakers ; and particularly by his being Reputed thy Convert , as also by thy Privity to , and Connivance at his Reviling and Scandalous Pamphlets and Books against us as a People , and by thy promoting the Reprinting his Injurious Pamphlet , with the New Title of The Converted Quakers Answer : Which ( with another Title ) he had before delivered to the Members of Parliament , to render us both Odious and Obnoxious in the Eye of the Civil Government ; and Consequently to Invalid the Condition of our present Liberty , and to make void our Liberty it self ; which , as it bespeaks great Malice and Persecution in him , so no great Charity nor Prudence in thy self , either directly or indirectly , to give Encouragement or Strength to such a Counterfeit Convert , whose work is not only purely Malicious and Revengful , but Injurious to the Christian and Civil Reputation of others , if he were but a Person of Credit or Reputation therein , as he really is not , with the Sober and Judicious . We have pursued him , in a Christian Method , both with fair and moderate Answers in Print ; the Substance and Principle Arguments whereof he has given the Go-by unto , and instead of any fair or solid Replications or Rejoynders , he has partially and unjustly Raked up broken Passages , and Pieces , and Words out of some particular Deceased Friends Books , making his own perverse Constructions thereupon to Misrepresent our Principles , and Scandalize us as a People , without any due Regard to , or Representment of the Author 's own Explications , or the Harmony or Concurrence of their own , or others of our Friends Testimonies or Writings Demonstrating our Principles , which no ingenious Man will refuse Persons or People their own Explications and Harmony of their extant or publick Testimonies , to make out their own Principles . Moreover , we have not thus left the said F. Bugg , but even since his last coming to London , we have earnestly besought and endeavoured to have a sober and suitable Meeting with him , for a fair Dispute and Disquisition of matters , chiefly in Controversie between him and us , and that before moderate and disinterested Persons ; and the more , because he pretended over and over that he accepted of my Printed Challenge in the Quakers Vindication , p. 4. and that he came 60 Miles to London to accept thereof , and had waited for an Engagement on equal Terms near Three Weeks ; when he himself knows ( and others also ) how he has been since followed with Letters , Messages , and fair Challenges in that Interim , even time after time , for such a Meeting as before ; but he has , by his divers Dilatory , partial and unequal Terms ( as by Letters made out to him , which he may shew thee if he will , about referring the matters in difference to the Decision of others , and for Retraction , &c. ) not only protracted and delayed time , but at length , after he was Argued out of his partial and various Terms , and after induced to grant , viz. If before Disinterested Persons , then no Retraction , which he concluded answered my said Challenge . Yet for all this , a Meeting hereupon being appointed by some of the Persons Scandalized by him , as Perjured and Pillored in his New Rome Arraigned , of which he had sufficient notice afore-hand , both of time and place ; and accordingly some of us met , with divers Disinterested Persons for Witnesses , nevertheless Francis Bugg came not at the Meeting . He has a conceited boasting insulting Humor and Clamorous , Deportment at a Distance ; but when he is closely put to it , and pursued for a Trial , and strict Examination of his Clamours , Charges , and Accusations , before Competent Wittnesses and Disinterested Persons , he shamefully Revolts and timorously Shrinks , as in this case of Controversie which he has begun against the People called Quakers , and which is as plainly told himself since by Letter ; and I am perswaded ( with many more ) that he will bring no Honour to any of you of the Clergy , or the Church of England , by these his Malicious Attempts ; and I wish thou would'st prudently Consider it , both for Truth 's Sake , and thy own Reputation , to put a stop to his Injurious Proceedings , Scribling , and Printing against an Innocent People , whom he has shamefully Deserted and ( in his Self-Contradiction , and Self-Condemnation ) wickedly Reproach'd and Defamed : A few Instances whereof do here follow . Some of Francis Bugg's Principal Calumnies , and Misrepresentations of the People commonly called Quakers . I. F Bugg charged us ( i. e. at least Twelve of us ) as being A Pack of False Witnesses , and Perjur'd Persons . And this from his own Scandalous Mock Trial , Conviction , and Condemnation ; unwarrantably acted by him , in his New Rome Arraigned , Epistle to Bereans , p. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. and p. 33. And all this for our Negative Testimony against the matter of his Charge , contained in the Four following Articles of his false Accusations against us , the said People , viz. 2. That they ( i. e. the Quakers ) deny Jesus of Nazareth : See The Converted Quaker , p. 5. 3. That they call Geo. Fox * the Branch , the Star , the Son of Righteousness , and put the North of England for the Town of Bethlehem ; hereupon Bugg also falsly saith , That they did not mean Christ , but G. Fox . 4. And that the Quakers Prophets give witness to Geo. Fox , instead of this Christ , p. 82. and Chap. 3. p. 16. they say , That God Man , the Man Christ Jesus ( who was Born of the Virgin ) was But a Garment , a Vail , a Vessel , [ which is expresly contrary to our Principles ] as Answered in Print : His Converted Quaker , p. 2. 5. F. Bugg Accuses the Quakers with Contempt of Scripture ( i. e. the Holy Scripture ) and ( as intending ) down with the Holy Scripture , affirming that they say , the Holy Scripture is carnal Dust , Death , and Killeth ; * tho' we find not that saying in any of our Friends Books quoted by him , and are sure 't is contrary to our Principle , as the foregoing are , yet Bugg is not ashamed to say , viz. I have not set down one Line or Word as theirs , that is not theirs , New Rome Arraigned , p. 22. * Note , That these Precedent Accusations are , not only expresly contrary to our Principles , and Concurrent Testimonies , extant in Print both for Jesus Christ , the Holy Scripture and Divine Authority thereof , but also to F. Bugg's own Testimony , in his Book Of Christian Liberty , the Second Part , Chap. 1st . Where he confesseth our Principles , Received in the beginning , to be Principles of Truth ; and , in our Name and Person , Testifieth unto the Holy Scriptures that they are good , and a true Declaration of those things which were most surely believed by the Apostles , and by us ought to be believed [ thus far F. Bugg , when a kind of a Quaker . ] Besides his Contradiction herein to himself , he Confesseth that here we agree ( i. e. G. Whitehead and himself ) namely , What the Holy Scripture is , That we do not Ascribe Holiness to the Paper and Ink , or Dead Characters , but to the Holy Doctrine and Blessed Precepts therein contained , which therefore is called the Holy Scriptures , New Rome Arraigned , Apol. Intro . p. 6 , 7. Qu. Where then can he Prove , either that the Quakers Condemn the Holy Doctrine and Blessed Precepts ; or Say , that the Holy Scripture is Dust , Death , &c. We Challenge him , or any of you , his Abettors , to prove such Contempt , or that Saying , as the Quaker's , or their Principle . 6. F. Bugg's Charging the said People , called Quakers , with Contempt of Governours , * Reviling Christ's Magistrates , accounting Magistracy a Cumbersome Tree , and their Principles as being * Antimagistratical , and Antimonarchicate . Note , Herein F. Bugg appears Mischeiveously Malicious , unjustly to render us Obnoxious to the Civil Government , like Judas and the Jews , against Christ , and rendering him an Enemy to Caesar. 7. His Reproachful Characters to Scandalize the People called Quakers , viz. New Rome , Rome ' s Sister , Rome their Elder Sister , and calls those , their Brethren , that pretend to Sell-Pardons , and pray Souls out of Purgatory , and saith , that these ( i. e. Quakers ) follow The Steps of the Jesuits . * And withal F. Bugg , in the Title of his Book , in Print , New Rome Vnmask'd , Scornfully and Reproachfully Termeth G. Whitehead one of her Chief Cardinals . Remark . Now pray , let it be considered , Whither Bugg's thus wickedly Misrepresenting the People called Quakers as Papists , does not greatly tend to gratifie the Popish Interest , by thus Magnifying of it , and to lessen and injure the Protestant Interest , and Consequently to Contradict and Affront the Government , which hath been pleased Legally to Recognize us as Desenting Protestants . Qu. Whether F. Bugg's Affront and Contradiction hereunto , be not Seditious ? [ i.e. to Sow Discord , Strife , or Contention . ] 8. Because of our Solemnly Declaring to the King and Parliament , That we believe the Holy Scriptures , of the Old and New Testament , were given forth by Divine Inspiration . And they have accepted this our Declaration , ( and Legally made it a Condition of our Liberty ) Bugg passeth this Judgment on us , the said People , viz. The more shame for you to be so Deceitful , to give in a Testimony so contrary to your Belief : And that the Quakers Pretending to the Parliament they believed them ( namely , the Holy Scriptures ) to be given forth by Divine Inspiration , was to serve a Turn , New Rome Arraigned , p. 40 , 42. Remark . Herein Bugg hath not only most grosly . Belied our Belief for the Holy Scriptures , but also Contradicted the Parliaments Charitable Acceptance and Belief of our Testimony therein . What Insolency , and Audacious Attempt is this ? Dost thou approve or disallow hereof ? Bugg also very unjustly accuseth the Quakers , that they Revile Christ's Ministers , Undervalue * his Death and Sufferings , Condemn his Laws , Despise his Ordinances ; [ all which is Expresly contrary to our Principles , and how proves he those to be Christs Ministers , whom our Friends have Testified against , viz. The Covetous Cruel Persecutors ] Here he Imposeth and shamefully begs the Question . 10. Moreover he Treats the said People with these Characters , Black-Guard of Lyers , Horrible Blasphemers , Impudent Imposters , Cowards , Cunning Sophisters , Juglings Legerdemain , Great Deceivers , Horrible Blasphemers , Wretched Imposters . That surely Simon Magus never exceeded these Imposters , Acts 8. With much more such like Outragious Railery and Defaming Treatment ( too tedious here to recite , ) being far Louder in Clamours than Proof ; Barking loud at a Distance , * but fearful fairly to Ingage . NOW , Friend Smithies , seeing thou hast refused to Personate thy Convert F. Bugg , or to be his Advocate , or Vindicate him in his Charges and Books against the People called Quakers , as I Proposed to thee , and Offered thee a Meeting for that End , I desire to know of thee , If thou wilt please to give a Check to him , and put a Stop to his defaming the People called Quakers in Print , or if he refuseth thy Advice thereunto : If thou wilt give publick Testimony against him , by disowning his perverse Work , and tell the World he is Heady and Wilful , and no real Convert , If neither it will Reflect upon thee . Note , But to this Enquiry or Letter , I never received Answer from William Smithies as yet . I Hear he is again Printing against us ( supposed as one Bent in his Malice to Scandalize us ) which we resolve , with God's Help , not not to lye under ; for we are assured , he has wickedly Wronged and Misrepresented our Christian Religion and Principles , and Shamefully and Undeservedly Scandalized particular Persons , both Living and Dead , and an Innocent People also ; As we hope in Christ ever to approve our selves , both in in the sight of God and Men , with due Honour to Jesus Christ in all his Works and Sufferings , and tender Respect to the Holy Scriptures : As by the Harmony and Concurrence of our Ancient Friends Testimonies is publickly Demonstrated , and we can make appear contrary to thy Converts Unjust Pretences and Misrepresentations ; and therefore if thou dost not put a stop to his Mischevious Attempts , which severely Affects both our Christian and Civil Reputations , in Rendring us both Blasphemous Imposters , and Perjured Persons ; his Malicious Mischievous Work , will Affect thee , and some others , who have Abetted him , and the Cry will be loud , and ascend higher than to thy self : I hope thou wilt Charitably accept this Information and Advertisement , and prudently Consider , and make Use of the same . London , the 1st of the 1st Mouth , 1693-94 . FROM thy Friend and Well-wisher , Geo. Whitehead . Expecting shortly thy Ingenuous Answer , &c. But no Answer yet . CHAP. II. A Copy of a Letter to Isaac Archer , Vicar of Milden-Hall , Suffolk . London the 2d of the 1st Month , 1693-94 . Friend , Isaac Archer . I Desire thee Charitably to accept these Lines , and prudently to Consider them , for the Truth 's Sake , as also for thy own Reputation . I remembering how Officious thou wast , in Accompanying and Abetting thy Follower and Disciple F. Bugg , in the publick Disturbance he made of our Friends-Meeting at Milden-Hall , the 30th of the 2d Month , called April , 1691. Contrary to the Intent of the present Government , and of the Law of our Liberty in the peaceable Exercise of our Religious Worship toward Almighty God ; and how thou , with him , then Deemed our said Meeting an unlawful Conventicle ( because our Friends there had omitted a Circumstance of Law , in not entring that Meeting-House upon Record , as the Law directs ) which did not bespeak a Charitable Disposition on thy part towards us : And also how thou hast Gratified , Encouraged and Abetted the said F. Bugg ( if he writes true of thee ) by giving thy Approbation for his Abusive Book , Which ( he saith ) he hath recited only an Abridgment thereof ( in his most Scandalous Book , Stiled , New Rome Arraigned ) as followeth , viz. I do own the Substance of this Book , as a Defence of those Eternal Truths , by which , I hope for Salvation , and which are as a Comfort to me in my Pilgrimage ; Peace be to those that own them ; and the Lord open the Eyes of them that deny them , Isaac Archer . Now , thou having thus far Countenanced F. Bugg , and approved of his Writing against us , as a People ( who are commonly called Quakers ) Please to Consider how far his Injurious Work of Envy and Contention against us ; and the Consequences of it may Affect thy Self and thy Reputation . And therefore , for thy Information and Caution , I hereby give thee a short Recital of some of F. Bugg's Notoriously False Charges against the said People , called Quakers , where he chargeth them , 1. With denying Jesus of Nazareth . 2. Contempt of Holy Scriptures . 3. Calling us Perjured Persons for our Negative Testimony against his so charging us ; and thereupon acting his Mock Trial , forging our Answers , and Erecting the form of a Pillory , and therein Scandalizing divers Citizens and Tradesmen in and about London , as Perjured Persons ( tho' Persons of good Repute and Credit , better than himself ) thereby Affecting not only their Christian , but Civil Reputations . 4. Contempt of Governours , and being against Magistracy in Principles , he also Charges upon the said People , giving them these Characters , viz. New Rome , Rome ' s Sister , the Papists their Brethren , and that they follow the Steps of the Jesuits . 5. Terming one of their approved Ministers , one of her chief Cardinals ( i. e. New Rome's . ) 6. Our Declaration to the King and Parliament , for the Holy Scriptures being given by Divine Inspiration , he renders Deceitful and Contrary to our Belief , and to serve a Turn . 7. He Accuses the said People , with reviling Christ's Ministers , undervaluing Christ's Death & Sufferings [ all which is expresly contrary to the said People's Faith and Principles . ] 8. Terming the said people , Black-Guard of Lyers , Impudent Imposters , Cowards , Horrible Blasphemers , Wretched Imposters , and such as Simon Magus never exceeded , cum multis aliis , &c. With many more such like gross Calumnies and Raileries are Bugg's Malicious Books stuft with ; all to render us Odious and Obnoxious in the Eye of the Government and Nation , for which the Righteous God will Judge him and his Abettors , for such his Intolerable and Mischievous Attempts . Please to observe , that tho' F. Bugg by his Partial Picking Words and Broken Sentences out of some Ancient Books of George Fox , Edward Burrough's and Isaac Penington's , he would seem thereby to Colour such his false and erroneous Charges before cited , and Fallaciously cast them on a whole Body of People ; yet the same Books of theirs in other Passages explanatory and more plain , do clear them and their Principles , as to their sincerely owning Jesus of Nazareth , highly Esteeming the Holy Scriptures , truly owning Magistracy ; and so far from Popery as that they were in their Day true Witnesses against it , and against all Idolatry and Superstition , and that our Declaration to the King and Parliament , for the Holy Scriptures being given by Divine Inspiration , was sincere on our parts ; and , in the sight of God , according to our Belief and Principle , as by many of our Books and Testimonies is Evinced ; as also that we highly Esteem and Value Christ's Death , Sufferings , and Sacrifice for the Reconciliation of Mankind unto God ; as by the Harmony and Concurrence of our publick Testimonies and solemn Confessions ( which have been Extant for many Years ) is clearly and fully Demonstrated , whatever F. Bugg and his Abettors have Maliciously Suggested to the contrary against us , whose work of deadly Malice and Persecution therein does not only affect our Christian and Civil Reputation , but the Civil Government , under which we Live ( and with true Gratitude ) enjoy our present Liberty in the Exercise of our tender Consciences towards Almighty God , in point of Worship : For , 1. Bugg's Rendering our said Declaration to the King and Parliament ( for the Divine Authority of the Holy Scripture ) deceitful on our parts . This is to go about to Invalidate and Destroy a Principal Condition of our Present Liberty , and to confront the Government 's acceptance of our said Declaration . 2. Bugg's Unjustly and Maliciously Representing the said People , called Quakers , under these Black and Odious Characters , of New Rome , Rome ' s Sister , and as Brethren to the Papists , following the Steps of Jesuits , &c. And Consequently no better nor other than Papists . Whereupon I ask thee these Questions , viz. 1. Does not this greatly tend to gratifie the Popish Interest ( by his thus Magnifying of it , far bigger than 't is ) and to lessen and injure the Protestant Interest , and consequently to Contradict the Government , which has been pleased Legally to Recognize us as Dissenting Protestants . Q. 2. What Ingenuity , Honesty , or Prudence hath Bugg , or you his Abettors , shewn in thus Representing such a Body of Protestant Subjects , as being Papists ? Q. 3. What Regard or Respect to the present Government have you therein Manifested ? Q. 4. What Care of the Protestant Religion or Interest therein , has appeared on your parts ? Q. 5. And what Reputation , Credit , or Honour to thee will thy Approbation of Bugg's writing against us be ; when further Exposed , to be taken Cognizance of by Persons under higher Circumstances than thy self , or thy Agent ? Q. 6. Whether Bugg's Contradicting the Government 's Recognizing us by Law , as Dissenting Protestants , by his defaming us as Papists , &c. be not Seditious in the Nature and Tendency thereof , as tending to stir up Strife and Variance amongst Protestant Subjects , and consequently to divide and weaken the Interest of both King and People ? Q. 7. Concerning Bugg's Assuming a Power as a Judge , and in his own Name to Try , Examine , Sentence , and Condemn Citizens and Tradesmen , &c. as Perjured Persons to the Pillory ; and that in their Absence too , and some of them Persons he never knew ; and , in his Mock Tryal , Forging , false Answers in the same Persons Names , and then Erecting the Form of a Pillory , with Twelve Effigies in it to Ridecule the Persons thus Condemned and Scandalized by him , and the word [ Perjury ] set over them in the Middle . Now we Query of thee , and others his Approvers , whether such his Proceeding be Warrantable , either by the Law of God or Man ? Q. 8. Whether it will be for the Honour of your Church and Clergy , for thy self or any of you , to Encourage such a Malicious Agent in his Scribling for you , to abuse an Innocent People ? Q. 9. And seeing F. Bugg has thy Approbation ? I ask thee , If thou Approvest of this his Doctrine , viz. It was not Jesus Christ for whom the Body was Prepared , Is was not Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh ; but the Word ? New Rome Arraigned , Apol . Introduction , p. 3. 'T is not unknown to many Witnesses here , how earnestly and fairly I have Endeavoured , and made divers Overtures for a Meeting in this City with F. Bugg , with others of my Friends ( whom he hath Scandalized with his Pillory , as aforesaid , as Perjured Persons ) even since his last coming to London , and that before a few Disinterested Persons , and we followed him with divers Letters and Challenges for a Dispute , and for Satisfaction for the Injury he has done us by notorious Scandal and Defamation ; and the more , because he pretended he came 60 Miles to London to accept of my Printed Challeng , amd had waited for an Engagement ( as he alledged ) near Three Weeks , Yet for all this , when closely put to it , he shifted and protracted time , with his Variety of Dilatory Terms , one while to refer Matters in Controversie to Ministers of Different Perswasions , to be left to their Decission , which was to Impose an Implicit Faith upon us , by giving away our own aforehand ; another while he was for Preingaging us to Subscriptions . For Conditional Retractions ( which shewed his Impertinent Triffling ) another while , for meeting and debating Matters before Disinterested Persons , which last we did not Refuse , but endeavoured to fix him thereupon and gave him Liberty to choose Three or Four Persons to be his Advocates , who he pleased , and we Appointed a convenient time and place in London for such a Meeting , and gave him Challenge , and two Days Notice thereof aforehand , where divers of us , with several Disinterested Persons for Witnesses , met and waited several Hours : Yet F. Bugg came not , for all his Boasting aforehand , so that his shameful Shifting and Evasion , both then , and before , was Notorious ; and we expect no fair Dealing , Satisfaction or Right from him , but Malicious Scribling , which , we are Satisfied , no Ingenious Impartial Men will give Credit to ; however I thought meet to give thee notice of his Malicious Work. 1. Because he is one of thy Flock . 2. Because thou hast Apparently Abetted him in his Persecuting and Disturbing our Meeting at Milden-Hall , as aforesaid . 3. Because thou hast given him thy Approbation of his writing against us , of which he has Recited an Abridgment in his most Scandalons Book , New Rome Arraigned , Epistle to Ber. p. 12. Being on the Backside of his Pillory . 4. Because F. Bugg pretends thou art not alone in thy Approbation , but another Divine of the Church of England has also written to him ( i. e. in his Commendation ) as having done a most acceptable piece of Service to his Country , in Vnvailing of the Falshoods , Errors and Hypocrisies of the Quakers ; and withal saith , he hath divers other Letters of the same Import , both from Conforming and Nonconforming Ministers . Now these are to acquaint thee , That we knowing F. Bugg's Gross Abuses and Scandals are in their own Nature Intollerable , and thou hast thus far concerned thy self in his Approbation , and we can have no reasonable Satisfaction from him . By all our fair and reasonable Endeavours we do not intend to lye under his foul Calumnies . But I am persuaded , the Cry will be yet louder , and the Complaint ascend higher against him and his Abettors therein , and am apt to think , it will affect thy self , and not tend to thy Honour or Reputation , if thou dost not put a speedy stop to his Malicious Scribling and Printing against us , or at least give publick Testimony ( of thy dislike ) against him , if he refuse to desist , when Admonished . Take this as my caution to thee ; So I expect to hear from thee whether thou will make use of thy Interest and Endeavours to put a stop to his Malicious Proceedure , that we may not be further Persecuted , Scandalized , and Rendred Obnoxious to the Government by this Scornful Malicious and Self-Contradictory Agent , whom the Just God will Reward according to his Works , with all his Approvers and Abettors , From thy Friend and Well-wisher , Geo. Whitehead . Thou mayest direct to me in Devonshire-Street , without Bishop's gate , London . CHAP. III. Another to the said Isaac Archer . London the 4th of the 2d Month , 1694. Friend , Isaac Archer . THine , Dated March 19. 1693. I have been so long prevented giving Answer to , besides what I desired by reason of other Concerns , thy Moderation therein I take well . The Confessions I mentioned , Relating to our Christian Belief and Doctrine , are many , and of the same Import , which I cannot therefore send thee , being mostly Bound up with other Books , and hard to find by themselves , and therefore send thee the Inclosed containing our Confession to Jesus Christ and the Holy Scriptures ; about which thy Friend F. Bugg has greatly Misrepresented the People called Quakers . I Remember thou Advised him against making use of his Warrant after some Discourse , yet cannot wholly clear thee from taking part with him in this Disturbing our Meeting in 1691. By thy Accusing the same as being Unlawful , thy Approving his Book is Apparent . In that Part of the Certificate , he Recites , by owning the Substance thereof as a Defence of Eternal Truths , which Implies our Offence against the same , according to his Misrepresentations ; thou wishest our Wrangling at an end , and that thou couldest stop me too ; I am wholly on the Defensive Part for Truth , and an Innocent People against that Wrangler F. Bugg . Stop him , and our Controversie Ceaseth , seeing thou mayest Diswade him from Writing against us ; for his Writing bitter Calumnies will not be any Credit to thee , or others his Approvers or Abettors . 'T is true , Jesus Christ is the Name of a Mediator , and so given to him upon his Incarnation ; howbeit as the Son of God , who is both the Saviour and the Anointed , was before ; even before Abraham was , and was the Spiritual Rock that all Israel Drank of . Thou Writes Moderately , in saying thou Believest we mean the same thing , but my Question was Chiefly to thee about F. Bugg's Doctrine , viz. It was not Jesus Christ for whom the Body was Prepared ; It was not Jesus Christ that came in the Flesh. This appears not Consistent with the Apostles Doctrine , 1 John 4 , 2 , 3. I desire thou mayest see all my Answers to F. Bugg , and particularly that one Sheet , Entitul'd , A Charitable Essay , &c. Though I Charitably think , as thou sayest for some Reasons , thou may'st Disswade F. Bugg from Writing , yet he has Divulged another Book , Stiled Quakerism , &c. Which is as bad as the rest . But I excuse thee in my Answers for not preventing its Publication , because I suppose his was in the Press before mine came to thee , From thy Friend and Well-wisher , Geo. Whitehead . CHAP. IV. A Sober Expostulation with certain Persons of the Clergy , against their pretended Convert Francis Bugg his repeated Gross Abuse of the People called Quakers . Will. Smithies . ●saac Archer . You are Persons concerned in this Expostulation , and to whom 't is particularly ( and in the first place ) applied , for these Reasons . BEcause of the Notice and Advertisements already given you , against our Convert or Proselyte Frances Bugg's ●ross Abuses and Misrepresentations of the ●eople called Quakers . 2. Because , of the Approbations or En●●uragement given him therein by some of ●●u , especially by Isaac-Archer and others . 3. Because , since Advertisements given ●●u thereof , he the said F. Bugg , has pro●●eded , not only to divulge a Second Edition 〈◊〉 his Defaming and Scandelous Book , Sti●●d , New Rome Arraigned ; but also , in his Additions annexed thereunto , he does Scornfully Insult and Boast of your Approbation . 4. You being Previously so plainly Advertised of his Abuse , and not Reformed , having been Encouraged by you , 't is thought but Just and Reasonable it should be thus Publickly Manifest who are his Approvers and Encouragers therein ; and for your farther Trial , whether you 'll yet acquit and clear your selves of his Contentious Work of Envy and Persecution . Now , you may Remember how that , in my Letters to you , I gave you Information and Caution of your Approved Convert F. Bugg his Notorious False Charges and Gross Calumnies against the People called Quakers , some whereof I again Recite to you , as followeth . 1. He Chargeth them , With denying Jesus of Nazareth . 2. Contempt of Holy Scripture . 3. Calling us Perjured Persons , for our Negative Testimony against his so Charging us : And thereupon Forging his Mock-Trial and Answers in our Names , with the Form of a Pillory , and therein Scandalizing divers Citizens and Tradesmen in and about London , as Perjured Persons ( tho' Persons of good Repute and Credit ) thereby affecting , not only their Christian , but Civil Reputation . 4. Contempt of Governors , and being against Magistracy in Principles , he also Charges upon the said People ; giving them these Characters , viz. New Rome , Rome's Sister , the Papists their Brethren , and Followers of the Step of the Jesuits . 5. Terming one of their Approved Ministers , her Chief Cardinal ( i. e. New Rome's . ) 6. Our Declaration to the King and Parliament , for the Holy Scriptures being given by Divine Inspiration , he Renders Deceitful and Contrary to our Belief , and to serve a Turn . 7. He Accuseth the said People , with Reviling Christ's Ministers , and Contemning his Magistrates , Vndervaluing Christ's Death and Sufferings . [ All which are Expresly contrary to our Faith and Principles . ] 8. Terming us ( the said People ) Black Guard of Lyers , Impudent Imposters , Cowards , Horrible Blasphemers , Wretched Imposters , and such as SIMON MAGVS never exceeded , Cum multis aliis . With many more such like Gross Calumnies and Rayleries , which Bugg's Malicious Books are stuff'd withal , to Render us Odious and Obnoxions in the Eye of the Government and Nation ; for which the Righteous God will Judge him and his Abettors , for such his Intollerable and Mischieveous Attempts . And as to our said DECLARATION to the King and Parliament , For the Holy Scriptures being given by Divine Inspiration , It was , and is sincere on our parts , and in the sight of God , according to our Belief and Principle , as by many of our Books and Publick Testimonies is clearly Evinced ; as also that we highly Esteem and Value Christ's Death , Sufferings and Sacrifice for the Reconciliation of Mankind unto God ; as by the Harmony and Concurrence of our Publick Testimonies and Solemn Confessions is clearly and fully Demonstrated , whatever F. Bugg , and his Abettors have Suggested to the Contrary against us . As to F. Bugg's Rendering our said Declaration and Testimony ( for the Divine Authority of the Holy Scriptures ) DECEITFVL on our Parts , New Rome Arraigned , p. 40 , and 42. This is to Endeavour to Invalidate and Destroy a' Principal Condition of our present Liberty : And is it not to Confront the Government 's Acceptance of our said Declaration also ? Now , Isaac Archer , thou mayest Remember that , in my Letter to thee , upon F. Bugg's Unjustly and Maliciously Representing the said People called Quakers , under those Black and Offensive Characters of New Rome , Rome ' s Sister , and as Brethren to the Papists , &c. Consequently no better nor other than Papists , I asked thee these , with some other Questions . Q. 1. Does not this greatly tend to Gratifie the Popish Interest , and to Lessen and Injure the Protestants , and Consequently to Contradict the Government 's Legally Recognizing us to be Dissenting Protestants ? 2. What Ingenuity or Prudence hath Bugg , or his Abettors shewn in thus Representing such a Body ( of Protestant Subjects ) as being Papists ? 3. What Regard or Respect to the present Government , or Care of the Protestant Religion , have you ( his Approvers ) therein Manifested on your Parts ? 4. And what Reputation , Credit or Honour to thee ( Isaac Archer ) will thy Approbation of F. Bugg's thus Writing against us be , when further Exposed to be taken Cognizance of , &c. 5. Whether his Contradicting the Government 's Recognizing us by Law as Dissenting Protestants , by his Defaming us as Papists , &c. Be not Seditious in the Nature and Tendency thereof , as tending to sow and stir up Strife and Variance amongst Protestant Subjects , &c. 6. Concerning Bugg's Assuming a Power as a Judge , and in his own Name to Try , Examine , Sentence , and Condemn Citizens and Tradesmen , &c. ( who are the King's Subjects ) as Perjured Persons and to the Pillory , and that in their Absence too , and some of them Persons he never knew , as he has since declared , and in his Mock-Trial , Forging False Answers in the same Person 's Names , and then Erecting the Form of a Pillory , with Twelve Pictures , and the first Letters of the Names of the Persons ( thus Condemned and Scandalized by him ) and the Word [ Perjury ] set over them , to Ridecule them with such Gross Forgery . Now we Query of you , his Approvers , whether such his Proceedings be Warrantable , either by the Law of God or Man ? With several more Queries and Matters to thee ( Isaac Archer ) in my Letters Relating to F. Bugg's Abuse , and my large and Friendly Letters also to the said W. Smithies , containing much in Substance of the same Matters , which yet remain unanswered by you , or either of you , save only a few Lines I had f●om thee Isaac Archer , which is not all Answer to the Queries , neither does it yet appear that you have given him any Real or Effectual Check to stop his Abuse and Calumnies , as you were Cautioned ; but rather he has persisted therein ; and Boasts of your Approbations as followeth . F. Bugg Proceeds ( in his Preface ) p. 3. thus , viz. Poor Proud Man ( i. e. G. Whitehead ) I say this Considered , I shall allow Mr. Archer Room for his whole Approbation , and Recite the Substance of two or three Letters from some other Clergymen , and the Request of three others , besides an Independant Preacher , that so be ( G. W. ) may see that both Conforming and Nonconforming Ministers are not ashamed to appear in Favour of what I Write ; nor afraid of G. Whitehead , who acts more like a Lord Chief Justice , than an Humble Quaker . Answ. 1. If you , his Approvers , are not ashamed so to appear in his Favours , you may be : I persume you have given your Approbations too Early , before you could have or see our Answers : And I Question whether either you Conforming , or Nonconforming Ministers ( who have been so early in your Approbations for F. Bugg ) have ever yet seriously Perused our Answers and Confutations of his Notorious Lyes and Calumnies against us , but have rather brought your selves under great Blemish and Guilt by such your Approbations ; and I must tell you , it was a very Unadvised and Indiscreet Act in you to be so Forward and Early in your Approbations and Judgments for F. Bugg's Books against the Quakers , without hearing both Parties Fully and Impartially ; such Percipitancy and Injustice will never Redound to your Honour or Reputation , who are the Clergymen and Ministers ( Conforming or Nonconforming ) who have shewn your Favours and Approbations of this pretended Convert , for much Boasted of by him . His Parish Minister's Approbation , which he chiefly Boasts of , thus Stiled and Cited , viz. Mr. Archer , Minister of Milden-Hall in Suffolk , the Town where I Dwell , his Approbation , &c. As there is Joy in Heaven over a Sinner Converted to God as to his Morals , so when the Erroneous turn to the true God as to his Intellectuals , Truth and Goodness , being his Infinite Attributes , the Shadow of them ( for in the Creature they are no better ) are Equally Pleasing to their Author . Hence I may shew my Joy , in that my Neighbour Bugg is returned from his Errors ( not as to his Life , for he was Sober ever since I knew him ) but as to his Judgment , as a Sign of which he has Laboured to bring over his Seduced Brethren ; which , would they Read his Books , might be done : But I fear most of them are of the Mind of one of them that told me , Thou mayest out Argue me , but shall not Perswade me , However I do own the Substance of this Book , i. e. the first Impressionths , as a Defence of those Eternal Truths 〈◊〉 which I hope for Salvation , and which are a Comfort to me in my 〈◊〉 , Peace be to those that own them , and the Lord open the Eyes of such as deny them . Isaac Archer . By this , the Reader may see what a Great and Eminent Convert F. Bugg is here Rendred , and what Joy his now Teacher shews in his Conversion , and by such his Approbation of F. Bugg's Work ( as a Defence of the Eternal Saving Truths ) and his Judgment against the Quakers , as his Seduced Brethren , he has joyned Issue with him therein against us ; but herein we deny their Judgment , i. e. the Judgment and Condemnation of both Priest and Proselyte , it being without Proof or Conviction . Isaac Archer thou wast too forward in this Point , thou hast given Approbation and Judgment for F. Bugg's Book , ( it seems on its first Impression ) and against us , before thou could'st have our Answers , or Impartially hear both Parties . Is this thy Justice or Judicial Way of Proceedure ? And dost thou think such Malicious Work , as thy Disciple F. Bugg's , will Convince us of Error ( if mistaken ) or bring Honour to thee , or Credit to thy Cause ? Surely thou art Accountable to the Just God for thy Encouraging F. Bugg in his Unjust Attempts ; who when he has Recited thy Approbation , then falls to Boasting Railing , falsly and grosly Reviling , ( instead of better Argument ) according to his wonted Course since he became your Convert pretended , viz. Come G. W. ( quoth he ) I have found room to Recite my Teacher Verbatim ; but I want both time and room to draw the Exact Picture of G. W. who , for Audacious Insolency , Pride and Conceit , for Scorn , Contempt and Envy , for Defaming , Glossing , Perverting and Subtilty , for denying what you know to be true , and affirming what you know to be false ; I say , to set forth your Exact Picture in these and other the like Crafty Jugglings , and Legerdemain , &c. it would require a Volumn . Behold , your Convert's Treatment ! Many such Storms of Raillery he Appears in in his Books and Pamphlets ( instead of Sober or Sound Argument ) wherein , as I know in my own Conscience , he has falsly Aspersed me : Being also known to be a Person of better Fame than he Represents me , so no Ingenuous or Impartial Men will take his Calumnies upon trust against me or my Friends ; but such as are so Enviously Credulous as to give away their Common Sence and Reason to believe his Reproachful Lyes , and so joyn Issue with him in his False Judgment against the Innocent . But he proceeds on with the Approbation given for him , viz , A Letter from Dr. Burrell . SIR , I heartily Congratulate your Return to our Church , which doubtless is the most Eminent for Doctrine , Worship and Discipline , amongst all the Reformed Churches in the World ; I cannot but highly Commend your Pious Endeavours for this End , of which I have received an Account from Mr. Gearing , a London Minister ; I shall much Rejoyce in your success herein , in order to undeceive them , Poor Seduced People ; having therein Displayed many of the Intreigues of their Leaders . Your Real Friend Nath. Burrell . Observe here how far these Clergymen have Entituled themselves to F. Bugg's Work against the People called Quakers ; taking what he Writes for granted ; as Pious Endeavours , ( how Malicious soever ) without Regard to our Answers , which evidently Detect and Refute his Impiety and Malice in his Frequently and Unjustly Aspersing us as a People : Yet if this Doctor would but be so Impartial as seriously to Peruse our Answers , he would see cause to be ashamed of his high Congratulation and Commendation of the pretended Pious Endeavours which he so Affectionatly has ascribed to F. Bugg , and to Retract the same , if he be not wronged in the Citation aforesaid . A Letter from another Divine ( so Stiled by F. Bugg . ) As nothing is more pleasing to the Eyes than Light , so nothing is more grateful to the Understanding than the Discovery of Truth ; in which Respect you have certainly done A MOST ACCEPTABLE Piece of Service to your Country , in Unvailing of the Falshoods , Errors and Hypocrisies of the Quakers , both because the Knowledge of the Truth is Delectable , and also because Men being thereby forewarned of the Dangers of their Hypocritical Insinuations and Pretentions might else have drawn them into , may be Enabled to avoid the Mischiefs thereof ; for which I think my self Obliged to return you my Thanks , I having received a particular Advantage by your Discoveries . But seeing , by your Pains , it plainly appears , that you aim at the Advantage of Mankind , which is both the Duty and Honour of all Men ; I am thereby Encouraged to begg the favour of a little further Information . John Milme . Observe , This pretended Divine seems dipt into F. Bugg's Spirit of Envy ; thus to Condemn a People ( i. e. the Quakers ) upon trust , without taking notice of their Defence . 1st , He Cries up F. Bugg , not only as a great Discoverer of Truth ; but , in the Superlative Degree , as having therein done A MOST ACCEPTABLE Piece of Service to his Country . 2dly , Then without Proof i. e Cries down the Quakers , Charging them with Falshoots , Errors , Hyppocrisies , Hypocritical Insinuations , &c. By all which he has as highly Espoused Bugg's Cause , and shewn as much Envy as any that have taken his part ; and deserves as much to be charged with his Abuses and Calumnies against the People called Quakers , seeing he so Frankly takes F. Bugg's Bitter and False Invectives against us to be such a real Discovery of Truth , and so Obligingly returns him his Thanks for the same ; whereupon F. Bugg seems greatly Elevated , and highly Cracks , Boasts and Vapours on this wife , viz. Come , Imperious George , that you may see to your Grief , that the Publick Ministry , both Conforming and Nonconforming , are not afraid of your Threats and Menacings to stand by me in what is Right , &c. Preface , p. 5. Q. 1. But did you the Ministers , that have thus Approved and Encouraged F. Bugg in his Work of Envy , give him order or leave thus to Expose your Approbation and Names in Print ? Q. 2. I desire to know of you , if you 'll stand by , and vindicate his Books and Charges therein against the People called Quakers , both as to Matters of Doctrines , and Matters of Fact ? Q. 3. I desire to know of you , if you Approve of Bugg's thus Bragging and Boasting of your Approbations in Print ? Q. 4. And whether you did see , and seriously peruse our Answers ( or any of them ) to F. Bugg , before you gave him your Approbations or returned your Congratulations before Cited . In his Postscript he also Scoffs , Boasts , and Insults , telling me , How smooth I appear in my Letters to his Mr. Smithies and Mr. Archer ( Whereupon he says , viz. ) Methinks I hear you say , Good Gentlemen be so kind to us , the Distressed and Perplexed Quakers , as to stop F. Bugg from Writing against our Errors , &c. But he never heard me thus Flatter or Complain in 's Days ; tho' I did write to those two Clergymen , as before , to shew them some of his foul abuses and Calumnies , that they might have Corrected or Stopt him , if they would have been so just ; but instead thereof , concerning them of the Glergy of England , he tells me , Postscript , viz. As they never put me upon Writing against you , so I can assure you they are far enough from stopping me ; therefore you must get other Advocates than such who have given me thanks for my Labour and Service done to the Christian Religion and Protestant Profession : Now , come Isaac Archer , William Smithies , Nath. Burrell , Gearing and Jo. Milme , What say you ? You may see how F. Bugg Boasts of your Thanks for his Labour : But what Service can you think he has done , either to the Christian Religion , or to the Protestant Profession , by falsly Aspersing a Protestant People and Society , as Papists , New Rome ? I hope you 'll see cause to Retract such Thanks , Congratulations and Commendations of your pretended Convert's Work of Envy , Falshood and Persecution , as 't is abundantly proved in our Answers ; particularly , 1st , In that Entituled , Innocency Triumphant over Insolency and Outrage of a Self-Condemned Appostate . 2. In that Entituled , The Counterfeit Convert . 3. In that Entituled , The Quakers Vindication against Bugg 's Calumnies : With divers others never answered by him . He now tells me , That neither did Col. Goldwell ever Reprove him , but always Approved of the Substance of what he wrote , and approved of his delivering the Sheet to the Parliament , &c. I am sure ( with others ) Col. Goldwell told several of us the Contrary , namely , That when three of us shewed him the Injury Bugg had done him ( i. e. by dedicating his Scandalous Books to him , in hopes of his Patronage ) he , the said Col. Goldwell , signified to us , that he was not made privy to his Dedication , for he knew not of it before it came forth , and had shewed his dislike thereof , as is more fully related in my Answer , Innocency Triumphant , p. 67 , 68 , 69 , 70. Now for F. Bugg Contrarywise to Alledge that Col. Goldwell did never reprove him but always approved of the Substance of what he Wrote , &c. This is not only to Contradict the said Col. in what he Possitively told William Mead , G. Latye , and my self ; but further , to add to his Disrepute and Disparagement , as an Approver of such Scandalous Pamphlets as those of Bugg's , particularly that of his New Rome Arraigned , with his Gross and Scandalous Mock-Trial , Sentence of Perjury and Pillory against divers Persons of good Repute , both Citizens and others ; but whether Col. Goldwell be to be Credited in his own Vindication of his dislike , and severe advertisement ( as he told us ) against what F. B. wrote ; or F. B. in saying , he never did reprove him , but always approved thereof , I say , which of them to Credit , in such Contradiction , the Reader is left free to his own choice , as may appear most probable to him , the one being a Member of Parliament ( whose Reputation was the more concerned ) and the other proved an Envious , Self condemned , Grievous Revolier and Blackslider , and Abusive Scribler , against an Innocent People , after owned by him , and conversant among them , for above 25 Years , as the People of God , and their Principle , Doctrine , and Ministry , as being a Dispensation of the Love of God to Mankind , and that God blessed their ( i. e. the Quakers ) Meetings with the Comfortable Enjoyment of his Presence for many Years as F. B. has more fully declared for us in his Book stiled , The Quakers Detected , Printed 1686. Two Years after he had left our Communion , and turned to the Church of England . F. B. his Title of New Rome , &c. ] is a refuted Calumny unjustly cast upon the Protestant Subjects called Quakers . Foxonian Quakers ] is a scornful Nick-name , and no such distinction own'd by the said People . His Charges of dangerous Errors , and pernicious Principles , tending to Overthrow the Christian Faith , to obstruct the Jews Conversion , to encourage MAHOMETISM , and to pervert the right way of the Lord ; are also Perverse and Lying Aspersions and Calumnies , which neither are , nor can be proved by him , or you , his Abettors , against the said People , on due Examination ; besides his dubious Question on his own Charge , renders him the more uncertain and questionable therein , by his thereupon saying , viz. Which whether so or no , deserves the Examination and Consideration of the Christian Ministry of all Protestant Churches , so short and dubious is he in his own Examination and Consideration ; tho' very loud , clamorous and positive in his Charges , wherein he does ( it seems ) but make work for others , which he is never able to perform himself , nor his Abettors . Tending to Encourage Mahometism ] is a new , as well as undue Charge ; what 's his pretended Reason or Proof for the same ? In his Preface to the Reader , p. 2. His supposing , That they do not believe Christ to be distinct from the Saints , or from his Body the Church , ( which he is Head of ) herein is a mistake , yet this can be no proof of his Charges , if by distinct from them , be meant separate from them , as may be rationally supposed ; for Christ and his Saints , as to their Beings , are distinct , and not confounded , yet not divided nor separated from each other in Spirit . That they do not Pray in the Name of Jesus to God the Father , thereby to own his Mediatorship ] is a notorious ( and publickly known ) Lie , as Thousands can Testifie , consequently far from proving his said Charges . Nor make Confession of Sin to God in Prayer , nor beg Pardon for the same ] are also two notorious Falshoods , knowing that many who frequent our Meetings , have great need of both sincere Confession , Repentance , and Pardon of Sin , for Christ's sake , and their own poor Souls . But look at Christ within , the Light within , his Intercession within ] and so did all true Christian Believers , who knew the Mystery of Christ in them , who believed and walked in his Light , and received the Spirit of the Son of God into their Hearts , making Intercession , and crying , Abba , Father . We do not believe this to be any pernicious Principle , either tending to Overthrow the Christian Faith , or to Encourage Mahometism . His Crucifixion within ; is not this to insinuate , that they do not believe Christ Crucified without ] which is a perverse and injurious Falshood implied against them , having often confessed Christ Crucified without on the Cross at Jerusalem , as the Scripture testifies : And if we should say , that F. Bugg , and such envious Apostates , do Spiritually Crucifie Christ afresh unto ( and in ) themselves , and put him to open shame , by maliciously Reproaching his Truth and People ; this is not to deny his being Crucified without . I cannot see any Mahometism from thence justly Chargeable upon us . Neither does his following Objection prove us guilty thereof , but himself very Ignorant of Christ and Christianity ; viz. Object . Yet they have among them many good Exhortations ; and they own Christ to be the Word of God , the Power of God , the Wisdom of God , will not this do ? Supposing they mean all to be within ; yea , Heaven and Hell , and all within , &c. Unto which F. B. the Framer of the Objection has Cited this for Answer , viz. The Mahometans hold Abraham to be the Friend of God , and Moses the Messenger of God , and Christ the Breath of God , and they Punish such as speak against Christ , whose Religion was not ( say they ) taken away , but mended by Mahomet ; Heylins Cosmog . Lib. 3. p. 104. And our Saviour is called in their Alchoran , The Word , the Power , the Soul and Strength of God , &c. Quoting the Lives of the Patriarchs , Printed 1694. Answ. 1. The People called Quakers do utterly deny Mahometism : 'T is not at all Concerned in their Principles or Religion , being Christian and wholly Opposite to the Adoration of that Impostor Mahomot . 2. They utterly deny that Christs Religion could be mended by Mahomet or any Man or Men else whatsoever . 3. But if the Mahometans hold Abrham to be the Friend of God , and Moses his Messenger , and Christ the Breath , the Word , the Power , the Soul and Strength of God , and Quakers hold the same ; this can no more prove that their Principles and Doctrines tend to encourage Mahometism , than that the Holy Apostles Doctrine did so , for they held Christ to be the Word of God , John 1. 1 John 5. 7. Rev. 19. The Power of God , and the Wisdom of God , 1 Cor. 1. 24. Yea , The Life , Strength , and Arm of God , and a Quickning Spirit also , Isa. 53. 1 Cor. 15. Could this be to Encourage Mahometism ? No sure , 'T were Blasphemy to Assert it . The Mahometans hold many Truths out of the Law of Moses , corruptly mixt with their Mahometan Imposture , and so do many Idolaters , Apostates and Antichrists in Christendom ; does it follow , that because the Quakers own those Truths , that therefore they are either Mahometans , or Idolators , &c. 2. That 's no good Consequence , and but ill Argued , at this Rate F. Bugg may as well prove any true Christian to be of any Religion ; and himself also a gross Impostor , because he holds some Truths which gross Imposters , &c. hold . Neither can he , Mahometize or Unchristian the Quakers by his False Supposition viz. If they do not come to this Result to own the same Jesus that was Born of the Virgin , Crucified , Dead , Buried , Rose again , and in the sight of the Galileans Ascended into Heaven . Seeing we do Sincerely , and Frequently , and Publickly , own and confess the same Jesus , both in Print and Publick Testimony , as Thousands are Witnesses , that we Confess Jesus Christ come in the Flesh , Born of the Virgin Mary ; that he was the Word which took Flesh , and Christ also a Spirit , even a Quickning Spirit , 1 John 1. 14. 1 Cor. 15. 45. But F. Bugg Falsly adds this more Possitive Charge , viz. And Publickly Condemn their Books , which Teach the Contrary , Preface , p. 2. And what 's contrary , but that the Quakers disown the same Jesus that was Born of the Virgin Mary ; which is a Notorious Falshood and Calumny . And therefore I Challenge him , and you his Teachers , Abettors and Congratulators , to produce those Books of the Quakers with the Pages and Words wherein the same Jesus is so disowned ; otherwise , for shame Retract and Condemn this his Abuse and Calumnious Aspersion . He further proceeds , in Justification of his most gross Forgery and Defamation against us , viz. But they say I put up a Mock-Pillory ; I Grant I did , and that to shew what they Actually deserved from their own Proposals to Authority , Preface . p. 2. Which Mock-Pillory , was the form of a Pillory , with Twelve Pictures standing with the first Letters of the Names of Certain Citizens of London , and other Persons of good Fame and Repute , with a Forged Mock-Trial , grosly to Defame and Scandalize them as Perjured Persons , ( for denying F. Bugg's False Charge ) in the first Edition of his New Rome Arraigned : And now both his Mock-Trial and Mock-Pillory left out in his Second Edition : Yet thus Unjustly Justified therein , as what the Quakers Actually Deserved ; Oh! Abominable Falshood , Insolence and Slander : But what has he Actually Deserved : Nevertheless , in Contradiction to this his False Plea , for his Mock-Pillory , his Friend and Advocate Thomas Crisp , in his Counterfeit Discovered , p. 2. saith ( as he is informed ) That F. Bugg has acknowledged 10 G. Whitehead , &c. that he was sorry he had done it ; and that if it were to do again , he would not do it ; ( that is , set up his Feigned or Mock-Pillory . ) But how does his Sorrow for it appear , when now he tells us , 'T was to shew what they ( i. e. the Quakers ) Actually Deserved ? Where 's then his Sorrow ? What say you his Watchers ? Was it a just Course to Convince us of Error that he took against us by his Mock-Trial and Scandalous Mock-Pillory ? Pray Answer plainly ; otherwise , if you do not yet stop bis Current of Scandalizing and Defaming us , your Encouragement and Approbations already given him , will the more Affect you , and Render you the more Culpable of his gross Abuses , as partakers of his great Iniquity which will be no good Expedient to dignifie your Church , or promote your Interest or good Fame ; I hope you 'll yet Consider it . And further , observe some of F. Bugg's Additional Forgery against us , the said People , in his own Words , Preface , p. 3. viz. Methinks I hear them say , Come let us say , he ( i. e. F. Bugg ) is a Pestilent Fellow , a Mover of Sedition , we must use all the Arts we have to stop him , for he seems to follow the Steps of M. Luther , that Apostate Adversary of our dear Elder Sister , and if he goes on , he will so unvail us , that all People will know us and our Intreigues ; come let us Bespa●ter him , and Cover him with some Frightful Beast's Skin ; and th●n set our little Currs to bait and Worry him , to Abuse and Bespatter him in City and Country , &c. This I have found true : Thus far F. Bugg . Observe here this Piece of Forgery and Romance to Bespatter us , and Suggest False Matters against us , which he never heard the Quakers say , but thinks he hears them so say , which we cannot think he does , unless he Dreams it . But to shew his own Conceited Ambition and Pride , how Puft up , Swell'd and Bigg he is in his own Conceit , as if he were such a Potent Invincible Antagonist , when we very well know the Contrary how Feeble , Impertinent and False he is : And his Comparing himself to M. Luther , as one in his Steps , and Implying the Church of Rome to be our Dear Elder-Sister : In the one appears his Proud Conceit , and Vain Fmpty Boasting ; in the other , his Notorious Falshood and Calumny . As to his Charge of Blasphemous Pretences of Miracles against G. Fox , whom he most Maliciously and Slanderously calls , That Imposter , Pref. p. 6. And why so ? But because G. Fox mentioned certain Miracles Wrought by the Power of God : Not at all Ascribing them to himself , or his own Power , but to the Power of God ; in Answer to the fervent Prayers of his Servants and People among us in certain places . But , says F. Bugg , not one of them ( i. e. Miracles ) said to be done in the Name of Jesus of Nazareth , as in Acts 3. 6. Which ( Quoth he ) is a strong Argument of their Disowning Jesus of Nazareth , &c. Answ. 1. That Miracles , both outward and inward , have been wrought among us by the Power of God ( Consequently by Jesus Christ who is that Power ) F. Bugg cannot Confute . If wrought by the Power of God , then they must be in the Name of Jesus Christ , for they are Indivisible and Inseparable . 3. What Sincere and Faithful Regard and Breathings of Soul , those our Friends Concerned , had in their servent Prayers to the Name of the same Jesus of Nazareth , F. Bugg is now as wholly Ignorant and now Insensible as his Argument and Consequence ( of their Disowning Jesus of Nazareth , &c. ) is utterly False ; it being by and through him that the Power and Spirit of God hath been made known among us , in its Effectual Operations . As to his Reciting the Quakers Books , which he Falsly says carry two Contrary Faces , Contrary Doctrines , Contrary Principles , &c. In two Columns Opposite . And then Aspersing their Leaders with the Depth of Hypocrsy Couch'd in them . 'T is to none but to such as his own Evil , Envious Eye , his Dim and False sight that they appear so Contrary ; for to a Single Eye and Charitable Mind such Pretended or seeming Contrariety is easily Reconcileable . As under the Title of The Perfect Quaker , he Cites , David 's Enemies Discovered , p. 7. Thus , viz. And these ( the Quakers ) do not call the Letter the Rule , nor Matthew , Mark , Luke , and John the New Testament and Gospel , &c. And in Opposition , under the Title of The Counterfeit Quaker , he Cites , The Harmony of the Old and New Testament , and the fulfilling of the Prophecies : But he has falsly Cited the first to make them seem the more Contradictory for the Words truly Cited , are these , viz. And these ( i. e. Who witness the Life which spoke forth Scripture ) do not call the Letter the Rule , and the four Books , Matthew , Mark , Luke and John , the New Testament and Gospel , &c. Here Bugg leaves out [ and the four Books ] which he has not Proved to be , both the New-Testament and the Gospel , being not the Books Abstractly , but the New Covenant , and the Power of God therein Testified unto , which Gospel was before the Books were , and before Abraham was : Rom. 1. Heb. 8. Jer. 31. Besides we owning the said four Books , to be Books of the New Testament or Covenant ; yet they are not all the Books thereof , there are more Books of the New Testament , as that of the Blessed Acts of the Apostles , and their Evangelical Epistles , and the Excellent Apocalips , which also belong to the New Testament ; so that the Harmony of the Old and New Testament relates to the Divine Testimonies or Doctrine of Christ contained in the Books : Paul and other Apostles were Ministers of the Gospel ; not of the Letter , but of the Spirit ; and of the New Testament , or New Covenant ( which are one and the same ) yet did not thereby Contemn or Slight the Scriptures which Testifie thereof . And seeing that I have Confessed that the Spirit or Life of Christ gave forth the Holy Scriptures , far be it from me to have the least Undervaluing Thoughts or Disesteem of the Scripture , which proceeded from thence : Therefore F. Bugg's Observation against the Quakers Doctrine ( and against me in Particular ) in this matter , as nothing but Discord and Confusion , and setting the perfect Quaker in Opposition to the Harmony of the Old and New Testament ; and Terming those that own that Harmony ( as J. Tompkins and W. Penn ) but The Counterfeit Quakers : Both which are so Notoriously False and Malicious that we could Enumerate Testimonies against him herein . Again , 't is as General as Positive a Falshood , That the Quakers Doctrine attributes that to G. Fox , which is ONLY due to Christ , Apol. p. 4. For the People called Quakers do positively disown any such Doctrine as doth attribute that to any other Man which is only proper and due to Jesus Christ , and sincerely Confess that Christ in all things must have the Preheminence in Glory and Dignity , as the only Potentate King of Kings , and Lord of Lords . Another Charge against the Perfect Quaker ( as he calls him ) is from the Examition and Trial of G. Fox at Lancaster Assize ; being thus Cited , viz. And before I came to the Barr I was moved to Pray , that the Lord would Confound their Wickedness and Envy , [ And what Crime was that ? ] The Thundred Voice Answered , I have Glorified thee , and will Glorifie thee again . And I was so filled full of Glory , &c. In Opposition F. Bugg sets John 12. 28 , 29. And 't was F. Bugg's Observation hereupon : But , Reader , here is G. Fox ' s Manifest BLASPHEMY in Assuming a Glorified State , whilst in the Mortal Body , p. 4. But is not here rather F. Bugg's great Envy , Darkness and Ignorance apparent ? For tho' G. Fox Assumed not such a Glorified State in that fulness in the Mortal Body here , as will be in the Immortal hereafter ; yet some Degree of Glory he might witness , as the true Sufferers for Christ pertake of here in this Life : Observe , If ye be Reproached for the Name of Christ , happy are ye , for the Spirit of Glory and of God resteth upon you , 1 Pet. 4. 14. See also Chap. 1. 8. And were not they Changed in the same Heavenly Image from Glory to Glory , even as by the Spirit of the Lord : See 2 Cor. 3. 18. And see also John 17. 22. Christ said , The Glory which thou gavest me , I have given them . Therefore 't is no Blasphemy to Partake and Testifie thereof . And how far that Reproached Servant of Christ did Partake thereof in his Sufferings ( who is now unjustly Rendred a Blasphemer ) is wholly hid from this Blind persecuting Adversary , who deems that Blasphemy , which is so much agreeable to Holy Scripture Testimony . Again , our Suffering Friend G. Fox Testifying , That he was come up in the Spirit , through the Flaming Sword , into the Paradise of God , and that he was in Paradise , &c. Against this , our Adversary thinks he has gotten huge Advantage ; he Roars and Belches out , viz. Thus did he Magnifie himself equal with , or above Christ. Oh! Horrible , &c. ( Quoth he . ) But soft , stop a little ; Is there no such Paradisical State in Christ attainable in this Life , but it must be deemed Horrible and Blasphemous , as our bitter Adversary doth ? May we not Cry out against his Gross Darkness , and his Teachers Ignorance . Oh Horrible ! Did Paul Blaspheme or Magnifie himself , as equal with , or above Christ ; when , coming to Visions and Revelations of the Lord , he declared , That he knew a Man in Christ above Fourteen Years ago , how that he was Caught up into Paradise , and heard Unspeakable Words , &c. See the Matter more at Large , 2 Cor. 12. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. See also Rev. 2. 7. Therefore 't is not a Self Magnifying nor Erroneous really to Believe and Profess a State of Paradise , or Heaven in Christ Jesus ( in some degree ) attainable , even in this Life , Phil. 3. 20. Our Reproached Friend 's declaring that he was Cloathed with Righteousness , and whose Name is not known in the World , Risen up out of the North , which was Prophecied of , but now fulfilled , &c. These Words our angry Adversary sets in Opposition to Moses Prophecy of Christ , Deut. 18. 15. and Acts 3. 22. and to John 1. 10. Whereupon he makes this Observation , viz. Thus did G. Fox Vye with Christ , p. 5. But I do not Apprehend any such Vying or Equalizing with Christ ; nor Contradiction to the Scripture Testimony or Prophecy of him : For , 1st . To be Cloathed with Righteousness , is Christ's Redeemed Ones ( the true Believers ) Priviledge and Happiness . 2d . The Nature not known to the World , was meant the New Name , pertaining to the New Birth . 3d. Risen up out of the North , which was Prophecied of [ Which ] here is Relation to the North , and not the Persons mentioned ; and the Prophecy was of the Seed which , was foretold , the Lord would gather , and also bring forth out of the North Countrey , and all Nations where Scattered : See Isa. 43. 6. and 49. 12. Jer. 16. 15. and 23. 8. Luke 13. 29. F. Bugg's Observation , p. 5. viz. Thus , Reader , did G. Fox Vye wish Christ , and Edward Burroughs and Francis Howgil two of his Prophets , Echoed back in their Epistle , Entituled , This is only to go amongst Friends , viz. Thou , O North of England , who art counted as Desolate and Barren , &c. Yet out of thee did the Branch ( i. e. G. Fox ) Spring and the Star Arise , &c. Answ. 1. The Parenthesis ( i. e. G. Fox ) in that Place , is a Notorious Forgery , as well as Malicious . 2. Here 's no Person Vying or Comparing himself with Christ. Nor Echoing back to any such Vying . 4. Tho' our bitter Adversary has often Repeated this Citation , and now grosly wrests it by Forgery , to prove his False and Malicious Charge against the Quakers , viz That the Quakers Prophets give witness to G. Fox INSTEAD of Christ ; that they call him the Branch , the Star , the Son of Righteousness , and put the North of England for the Town of Bethlehem . Yet there 's no mention at all made either of G. Fox , or Town of Bethlehem , in all that Epistle of E. B's , Quoted , as the Epistle may be seen at large in his Works , p. 64 , 65 , 66 , 67. And Note , that General Epistle of Francis Howgil's , To the Camp of the Lord in England , &c. Wherein are the Words , Spare none , neither Ox nor Ass , &c. Is Printed in his Works , Pages 28 , 29 , 30 , 31 , 32 , 33. Which I have also viewed over , and find not any such Title ; as , This is only to go among Friends : Neither do I find G. Fox or Town of Bethlehem so much as Mentioned in it . 5. Is it not then great Wickedness and shameful I solency in our Adversary , frequently to attempt Proof of such a Horrid Lye against the Quakers , as is that of calling G. Fox the BRANCH , the Star , the Son of Righteousness , and puting the North of England for the Town of Bethlehem : Is it not Horrible Wickedness in our Adversary to persist in this Notorious Lye and Forgery ; and so much add and heap one Forgery and Abuse upon another ? What say you his Ministers to these things ? Will it be for your Credit to Encourage him in his Work of Envy and Falshood against us ? 6. Our Adversary , in his Introduction p. 6. After he has Cited above a Page ( which he knew in his Conscience , are Allegorical Expressions intending the Spiritual Weapons and Warfare , and the Saints Testimony and victory ) according to Ephe 6. 12 , 17. He puts his own Perverse and False Notes thereupon in the Margin . As where Ameleck , the Egyptians and Philistines are Threatned ; so as to be cut off . He makes this Note upon it in the Margin , viz. Which by Interpretation was all that Professed Jesus of Nazareth , and that called the Scriptures the Word of God. Whereby he endeavours to render the Quakers to be for cutting off and destroying all that profess Jesus of Nazareth , &c. Oh horrible ! Did ever more deadly Malice , bloody Envy and Falshood appear in any Agent of Satan ? And how evidently against his own Conscience too , who knew the People called Quakers professed no other Sword nor Weapons for them to make use of , but such as are Spiritual ; and to be actually concerned in no other Fighting , but in the Lamb's War. What Fra. Howgill writes of bathing their Sword in the Blood of Ameleck , and the Egyptians , &c. are Allegorical Expressions , and not Literally to be understood , but of the Sword of the Spirit , which is the Word of God : And that War of the Lord's Camp was Spiritual , because of his Power and Presence , and Angel of his Covenant among them : And the Lord of Hosts is with us , ( saith he . ) By these and divers other passages , 't is evident he meant no other but a Spiritual War with Spiritual Weapons , like as the Prophets meant , Isa. 41. 14 , 15 , 16. Hos. 6. 5. 7. Also on the words , Let not your Eye pity , nor your Hand spare , he has this Note , viz. Why then should you be pitied or spared ? Thus injuriously restraining the words to a Literal Sense which were Allegorical , on purpose to render us most obnoxious , and for no pity to be shewn us , but as if he would have us all destroyed at once : Oh most cruel and deadly Malice . 8. On the following words , But wound the Lofty , and tread under foot the Honourable of the Earth ; give unto the great Whore double , &c. he thus Notes , viz. Meaning both Gentry , and Clergy , and Church of England . Oh horrid and implacable Malice , Revenge and Falshood ! They did not mean Literally , as of an outward wounding or treading under Feet , nor of any truly Honourable , Gentry , or others ; but in Testimony against such great Persecutors as had deeply Drunk of the great Whore's Cup , who has made her self Drunk with the Blood of Saints : Therefore 't is false to say ' t was meant of Gentry , &c. or without Limitation . Again , our Adversary in p. 7. repeats his so often refuted Forgery and Lie , viz. That our Friend 's said Epistle , Compared the North of England to the Town of Bethlehem , and G. Fox to the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness , &c. which Falshood has been refuted over and over , tho' here he varies in 's Charge from the terms of his first Charge , which was , that the Quakers PVT the North of England for the Town of Bethlehem . Now , 't is COMPARED the North of England , &c. In the first it was , viz. They call G. F. the Branch , the Star , the Son of Righteousness ; now 't is they compared him to the Branch , &c. Thus mutable he is in his Accusations and Calumnies , yet grosly false in both . Is this your Defender of Eternal Truths ? And are these his Pious Endeavours , for which you his Approvers have so highly Congratulated him ? 10. Farther , to aggravate Matters against us , our Adversary adds , p. 7. viz. — Prophecies and Curses , which bear the Figure of your Private Sermons , by which they snared and frighted me , and many more , from the Publick ; and now they have obtained their End , and made Rents and Division in Church and State , &c. 1. Tho' here he renders himself but a dark , poor , frightful Creature , as if in his first leaving the Publick or Parish Priests , he did it only upon a Fright , and as a Non Compos Mentis , and not from a Principle of Conscience or Conviction ; yet herein he does but greatly wrong his Conscience , and deny the real Truth , by a very slim and false Cover , and that in manifest Contradiction to his Confessions and Testimonies extant in Print , both before and since his Revolt to the Publick , ( as he calls it ) as has been often shewn him , and made evident to the World in our Answers to his Envious and Bitter Invectives ; as where he has solemnly confessed , To the Truth of the Principle , Foundation , Doctrine , Ministry , Faith , Love , Unity , Spiritual Testimony of the People called Quakers , as in the beginning , and as being the Church whereof Christ Jesus was the Head and Law-giver &c. as he confesseth far more largely in his Book , Entituled , De Christiana Libertate , 2d Part , Chap. 1. p. 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , &c. Printed 1682 , before his return back to the Publick . Surely he was not frighted into such Solemn Confessions , nor did he make them in a fright , he was more deliberate therein , and which said Confessions , in behalf of the People called Quakers , and their Christian Religion , are largely seconded and confirmed by him the said F. Bugg himself , even in his Pamphlet stiled , The Quakers detected , Printed 1686. about Two Years after he left us , and turned to the Publick , ( as he calls it ) wherein he also largely and solemnly confesseth , To the Truth of the said Peoples Principle ( as in the beginning ) and of their Doctrine and Ministry , as a Dispensation of God's Love ; their Christian Love and Society for many Years , and that God blessed their Meetings with the Comfortable Enjoyment of his Presence , &c. as may be seen more at large in the whole third page of his said Pamphlet , Quakers Detected . Now I would Query , 1. Whether F. Bugg made all these solemn Confessions in a fright ? O● was he scared or frighted by any Man , or Men , or Prophecies , or Sermons of ours thereunto ? 2. Or was he not rather Consciencious in those Confessions ? 3. Was he not rather frighted back to the Priests by Persecution , and so made his flight in the Winter for Refuge , and shelter among them whom he had testified against ? 4. May he not then be ashamed of such a deceitful Excuse and false Cover , as that of his being scared and frighted from the Publick by Quakers Prophecies or Sermons ? 2. To the latter part of his Charge , I deny it , that the Quakers have made Divisions not only in Church , but in State ? Q. 1. In what Church have they made Division ? If he says the Church of England , then he renders it a divided Church ; which I suppose you its Ministers will not own , nor thank him for rendring your Church divided . Q. 2. In what State have they made Division ? Is not this an audacious Affront to the State , and maliciously to render us obnoxious thereto , and so to expose us to Persecution and Ruin ? Oh monstrous Persecution and Cruelty ! Our Adversary's Charge of most horrid Blasphemy upon that Innocent Sufferer Ja. Parnell , p. 7. for saying , To the end of Disputes , &c. I am come , for before they was , I am ; which he sets in opposition to John 8. 58. Verily , before Abraham was , I am . I think he might in Charity ( and literally too ) have found a better Construction for J. P's words , than most horrid Blasphemy , that being an unpardonable Sin. As [ either before Disputes was , I am ; or before Disputes , I am , was , or ] before ] is as well a Comparative Expression of Excellency , as of Time , or Presence , as Suprà before or above ; and therefore 't is no Blasphemy to say , above Disputes I am ; or I am come into that which was before Disputes . But suppose Ja. Parnell was short , or failed in Expression ; I shall more easily grant that than that he was a most horrid Blasphemer . P. 8 , 9 , That distinction between Christ , and the Body in which he came , and his being Spiritually in his Saints , and as he is the Seed which bruiseth the Serpent's Head , he is not wholly excluded out of Man ; for the same Christ that was Crucified being Spiritually in us , this I take to be the meaning of what 's contained in those Citations in p. 8 , 9. I do not see Christ denied hereby , or that the Quakers deny Jesus of Nazareth to be the Christ of God , as is often falsly charged upon them , and as often refuted : And if our Opposer will needs have the Body , which Christ took upon him , to be the imire Christ , how then does he confess on John 1. 10. That He ( i. e. Christ ) was in the World , and the World was made by him , and the World knew him not . P 5. Intro . Qu. Did that Body which Christ took upon him make the World ? Or Christ the Word which took Flesh , or assumed that Body ? Tho' I said I may see cause otherwise to word the Matter , and yet our Intentions be the same . Count. Convert , p. 72. quoted by our Adversary ; I did not thereby intend either to deny Christ , or undervalue his Death and Sufferings , or to contemn the Scriptures , as he seems unjustly to suggest , p. 9 , 10. seeing they are Imputations and Aspersions which we have endeavoured to wipe off and remove , as we have frequently done . There 's another great Abuse and Aspersion which our Adversary has again repeated against us , as one that 's implacable , and bent to evade our plain Answers , and to persist in his Calumnies and Lies , when he has formed the Query , Whether was the Sufferings of Christ , or the Sufferings of the Quakers greatest ? Then he saith Edw. Burroughs says , the Sufferings of the Quakers was greatest , ( wherein he wrongs E. B's words ) and then most falsly saith , viz. and G. W. hath not yet said , the Sufferings of Christ was greatest ; no other word will do , I still pursue the terms of my Query , and wait to have it answered , but I find . G. W. pinched , and in a great strait , and knows not which way to winde him , p. 10 , 11. and hereupon he brings forth a great storm of Railery , Scorn and Calumny against us , as not fit for any Place of Trust , not fit to have our Yea and Nay pass for an Oath , aspersing the Quakers with new kind of Popery , with much more insulting Scorn and Contempt , and all without just cause , from G. W's Answer to his said Query , being directly answered to the terms of it twice over : 1. In the Sheet , in the Quakers Vindication from F. Bugg 's Calumnies , which was given to the Parliament . 2. In my Answer to his Quakerism Withering , Entituled , The Counterfeit Convert a Scandal to Christianity , p. 36 , 37 Now that you , who are F. B's Teachers and Approvers , may see ( that instead of his defending Eternal Truths , or Pious Endeavours , as you have commended him ) how wilfully he has belyed me twice over in this Matter , and how that I have given him direct Answer to his Query , by confessing the Sufferings of Christ were greatest , and therefore not pinched , nor in any such strait to answer him , as he falsly renders me , I shall now give you a third Repetition of his Query , and my Answer , as they are in Print twice over . Bugg 's Query , Whether was the Sufferings of Christ , or the Sufferings of the Quakers greatest ? Answ. 1. In the first place we Answer , The Sufferings of Christ in the Nature of them , both inward and outward , in Agony of Soul , and Pains of Body , by that most Cruel Death of the Cross , following that of Scourging and Crowning with Thorns . 2. It was most unjustly and wickedly inflicted by his Persecutors , the Jews and Heathen ; yet worse in the Jews , because they might have known better , and because they prosecuted him upon False Witness . And as Christ's Sufferings were most Cruel and Unjust , both as to the nature thereof , and the Dignity of him that Suffered , so he was a most Acceptable Sacrifice , and Sweet-smelling Savour to God , and his Suffering and Sacrifice of Universal Advantage and Benefit to Mankind , in that he Died for all Men , and gave himself a Ransom for all , that all might be capable of Redemption and Salvation through him . Now , pray observe what more direct Answer to F. Bugg's Query could I have given ? The Query is , viz. Whether was the Sufferings of Christ , or the Sufferings of the Quakers greatest ? Answ. 1. The Sufferings of Christ in the nature of them , ( i. e. the Sufferings of Christ were greatest , for the Answer is directly pursuant to the terms of the Question ) . 2. Christ's Sufferings most exalted and esteemed , because of the Dignity of him that Suffered . And this was obvious to Bugg's Eyes twice over in Print , 1. In our said Vindication . 2. In the said Counterfeit Convert a Scandal to Christianity , in Answer to his Quakerism Withering . With what Conscience then could he say , G. W. hath not yet said the Sufferings of Christ was greatest , and that he finds G. W. pinched , and in a great strait ? What notorious Falshoods are these ? And suppose , as he would insinuate , such a direct Answer from me , would thwart some of E. B's Expressions in this point : Or that he was mistaken in some words unsafe therein , ( which I deny not ) does it therefore follow , that I am such a great Offender in esteeming him a Prophet , and that therefore down goes Infallibility it self , according to our Adversaries Arguing ? By such Logick who may escape his Uncharitable and Unjust Censure of new kind of Popery ? For 't is as rare Logick , as to argue , a good Man may be some time mistaken in some Expressions , therefore he is always mistaken , consequently a false Prophet , or fallible and mistaken in every thing : But this will not hold , for this were to condemn both Samuel , David , Elijah , Job , and others , as no true , but false Prophets , because sometime mistaken . See 1 Sam. 16. 6. 1 Kings 19. 14 , 15 , 18. Rom. 11. 4 : See also Acts 23. 5. And , in the Antient Approved Bibles , see what Remark is in the Argument on Job , it 's there said , That Job maintaineth a Good Cause , but handleth it Evil. Again , his Adversaries have an ill Matter , but they defend it Craftily . Moreover , he ( i. e. Job ) was assured that God had not rejected him , yet thro' his great Torments and Affliction he bursteth forth into many inconveniences both of Words and Sentences , &c. yet Job was a holy and just Man , and true Prophet in many things . Our Bitter Persecutor would fain fasten Contempt of Holy Scripture upon the Quakers , with these odious Assertions , viz. That the Scripture is BEASTLY Ware ; that WHAT the true Prophets spake was false , and WHAT the false Prophets spake was true , &c. Intro . p. 13. These are three notorious Falshoods as well as gross Errors , maliciously contrived to contradict our sincere Confession , viz. That the Holy Scriptures , of the Old and New Testament , are of Divine Authority , as being given by Divine Inspiration , &c. and that we prefer the Holy Scriptures before all other Books extant in the World. How sincere we are in such Confession , we can refer to him that knows our Hearts , to whom we Appeal against our Adversaries contrary , unjust Judgment , and gross Calumnies , falsly representing us insincere , even in these weighty Matters , wherein the greatest Tenderness and Conscienciousness towards God ought to be exercised by us all . Another gross Abuse our . Bitter Adversary has committed against many of us , who Signed an Epistle from our Yearly Meeting in 1675. which I must give some Account of here . 1. He Cites these words out of our said Epistle , viz. It is our Sence , Advice , Admonition , and Judgment , in the Fear of God , and Authority of his Power and Spirit , that no such slight and contemptible Names and Expressions , as that Faithful Friends Papers ( which we Testifie have been given out by the Power and Spirit of God ) are Mens Edicts or Canons , with such scornful Sayings , be permitted . Subscribed ( saith he ) by W. Penn , G. Whitehead , and others . Introd . p. 11. And what of all this ? This Advice related to such Papers and Epistles of Faithful Friends , as concerned good Order and Discipline in the Church , and for promoting pure Religion in Life and Practice ; and why should they be slighted or contemned as but meer Human Edicts and Canons ? What use does our Scornful Adversary make of this ? Observe what he saith , p. 13. viz. But as for what G. F. &c. wrote , their Yearly Meeting Testifies it was given forth by the Eternal Spirit ; yea , THE SAME MEN that charged their Disciples in the Name of the Lord not to call their Papers Edicts or Canons , call the Scriptures Death , Dust , and Serpents Meat . And what same Men ? He has told us before W. Penn , G. Whitehead , and others who Signed the said Yearly Meetings Epistle , that they so called the Scriptures , whereby he has greatly abused , and shamefully belied the same Men , ( i. e. W. P. G. W. &c. ) for they disown the Expression , and own the Divine Authority of the Holy Scriptures , as first given by Inspiration from God , and truly prefer them before all other Books extant in the World. But how can that be in our Adversary's Account , when he objects against it and us , That G. W. avouches , that what is spoken from the Spirit of Truth IN ANY , is of as great Authority as the Scriptures and Chapters are , and Greater ? &c. He shews himself but very dull and impertinent in this Objection , For we may prefer the Scriptures , even the Bible , before all other Books extant , and yet not before the Spirit of Truth , or the Immediate Powerful Teachings thereof in Man ; for that Spirit was before the Scriptures Writings , or Bible were , and only can give the true understanding thereof ; and therefore the Spirit of Truth may be preferred to the Scriptures , and all other Books , without any contempt or slight to them . This Objection is more fully Answered elsewhere . To our Adversary's saying , viz. G. W. tells me , I was but a kind of a Quaker , and I think 't is the truest word in his Book , I think I was not above a third part of one , and that too much too , p. 13. Thus he would fain winde off from the Reputation he had of a Quaker for 25 Years together ; he now miserably shifts and minces the Matter , but manifestly contrary to his own Confession , in his Quakers Detection , p. 3 as before quoted to my Question , Whether F. Bugg , when a Quaker , denied Jesus of Nazareth to be the Efficient cause of Man's Salvation ? He Answers , I do believe I then did not hold the worst part of Quakerism , &c. Yet I do freely Acknowledge that I was in great Errors , Particularly touching the Point of Justfication : For I then Expected Salvation through my Obedience to the LIGHT , which the Quakers taught , was Sufficient to Salvation : But since it pleased God to open my Eyes , I believe that Salvation is attained , through the Mercy of God is Christ Jesus , by Faith in the Merits of his Passion and Obedience to his Precepts , p. 14 , 15. Observe here : 1. He now counts it a great Error to Expect Salvation through Obedience to the Light , without Distinction of What Light. 2. He Opposeth the the Sufficiency of the Light for Salvation . And 3. Attaining Salvation through the Mercy of God in Christ Jesus ; Faith in his Merits and Passion , and Obedience to his Precepts . These he Opposeth TO Obedience to his Light , and Expecting Salvation through the same : These he sets in Opposition ; as one that expects Salvation through the Mercy of God in Christ Jesus , and by Faith in his Merits , and Obedience to his Passion , without Obedience to his Light. For that End , Expresly Contrary to Christ's Doctrine ; and his Apostles Testimonies . 1. Christ Commanded , Believe in the Light that ye may be the Children of the Light. And this Believing in the Light , was a necessary Act of Obedience , in order to Salvation . 2. Christ saith , I am the Light of the World , he that followeth Me shall not abide in Darkness . And the Apostle James Exhorts to a Receiving the Ingrafted Word which is able to save the Soul : And this Word is both Light and Life ; In him was Life , and that Life was the Light of Men : Therefore the Light is Sufficient to Salvation . 3. Salvation through the Mercy of God in Jesus Christ , true Faith in his Merits , and Suffering for us ; and Sincere Obedience to his Precepts , cannot be attained nor performed , without Faith in , and Obedience to his Light ; it was the Mercy of God to us , to afford us Light to lead us out of Darkness : For Men in Darkness are Blind , and ( as such ) cannot see the Mercy of God in Christ Jesus , nor true Faith in his Merits or Suffering : For 't is in Walking in the Light that we know the Blood of Jesus Christ to Cleanse us from all Sin , 1 John 1. 7. But alas ! What sad Confusion and Darkness is our Adversary in , whilst he concludes God opened his Eyes to Believe , in the Mercy of God in Christ , and obey his Precepts , and yet not to expect Salvation through Obedience to the Light. Oh! Dark and Disobedient Man , can thy Eyes be open to see without Light ? 2. Or canst thou attain Salvation in Darkness ? 3. Or canst thou truly yield Obedience to Christ's Precepts , either in Darkness , or without Obedience to his Light in thee ? When to Believe in the Light was an Express Precept of Christ ? 4. And is this Obedience to the Light , no Step nor Advance towards Salvation ? 5. Seeing Christ is the Author of Eternal Salvation to as many as obey him ; can any truly obey him , but in his Light ? The Steps we make towards Salvation , are in the Light , and not in Darkness ; And Christ being the Author of Eternal Salvation ; 't is to those only that believe and obey him ; for true Faith in the Light , and true Faith in Christ , is but one true Living Faith. As Christ in the Heavens , and his Light in Man are Inseparable . Here follows some more of our Adversary's Palpable Falshoods and Aspersions , cast upon us in his own Words , viz. You can neither make Confession of Sin to God , nor begg Pardon for Christ's Sake , p. 15. 2. You do not Pray after that manner . 3. You do not Pray in the Name of Christ ( to God the Father ) as the Mediator and Intercessor between God and Man , p. 15. 4. You lay aside the Scripture , as useless , p. 15 , 16. 5. You deny the Ordinances of Jesus Christ , as Baptism and the Lord's Supper , WHICH THE SCRIPTURES TEACH ; saying , Go Teach all Nations , Baptizing them , &c. p. 16. 6. You lay aside the Vse of the Lord 's Prayer , &c. The Ten Commandments , and the Apostles Creed , &c. 7. You Rob Christ of his Divine Attributes , and put them upon your Glorified G. FOX , calling him the Branch , the Star , the Son of Righteousness , &c. p. 16. For which , his so often Repeated Blasphemous Lie , he bids us see our Epistle , This is only to go amongst Friends : Whioh , he saith , is Largely Recited in this his Introduction , &c. To which I again Answer , I have viewed his Citation , and examined both F. Howgill's and E. Burrough's Epistles in their Works ; out of which he Cites divers of the Words before , but find not one Word of G. Fox mentioned in either , much less any calling HIM the Branch , the Star , the Son of Righteousness , which great Abominable Lie , F. Bugg would feign some Colour of Proof for , to Justifie his seigned M●ck-Trial and Pillory , to Render us Odious for our Positive Denyal of this , and some others of his most gross Lies and sordid Chlaumnies and Forgeries cast upon us . To which , his said great Lie , he Impudently and Falsly adds , viz. Which notwithstanding G. W's Denial is plainly Proved to MEAN G. FOX ( Quoth he ) Which is a Notorious Falshood again . Thus instead of plain Proof of Matters of Fact , as Charged , he Unjustly Imposeth his own False Meaning for Proof . Thus see how hardly this poor Envious Creature is put to his Shifts , to defend , gloss and cover his gross Lies , Deceit and Falshood , wherewith he has been long Labouring and Working hard to cover himself , but all will not do : Wherefore you who are F. Bugg's Ministers , Teachers and Approvers , if he be one of your Eminent Agents , one of your Converts , and Esteemed your Pious Defender of Truth , one of your strong Oaks , and great Champions to Detect and Convict the Quakers of Errors , you may be ashamed of your Oaks , &c. Who further adds for Proof of his said Abominable Lie , viz. Yet to strengthen the said Proof , See John Whitehead 's Small Treatise , p. 4 , 5. After these things in the Year 1648. God , who had Compassion on his People , did cause A BRANCH to Spring forth of the Root of David , which was filled with Virtue , and the Covenant of Life and Peace was with him , &c. And in the Year 1655. I being a Branch of this Tree ( meaning G. FOX , Quoth F. Bugg . ) Thus again he is put to his sorry Shifts , but this will not do for Proof : For , 1. Here 's no mention of calling G. Fox , the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousnes , &c. 2. That God did Cause A Branch to Spring sorth of the Root of David , &c. may be true of some Eminent Instrument in God's Hand and Work ( But observe , 't is here A Branch , not The Branch ) and yet not to put the same Instrument for Christ , because Christ is both the Root and Off-spring of David , the Bright and Morning Star , and the Heavenly Vine also ; OUT of which many Branches have Sprung and brought Forth Fruit in him . 3. All the Trees of the Lord , that Spring from the true Root Christ Jesus , ( who is the Root of David ) are full of Sap and Heavenly Virtue , yet all Prefer the Root that bears them , and the Rock which is higher than they ; and do not put the Branches for the Root , nor instead of him , who is ( by way of Eminency ) called , The Branch , the Star , the Son of Righteousness , which no Member of his ( how Eminent soever ) may assume to himself , tho' he has the Morning Star promised to be given him , Rev. 2. 28. Thus far to F. Bugg's Additions and Alterations in the first Part of the Second Edition of his New Rome Arraigned , the rest of his said Book being Answered before in Innocency Triumphant ; except some Passages in his Additional Sheet in Conclusion , noted in the Sequel . Now touching our Adversaries , Quakerism Anatomized his Charge and Challenge , in a Sheet added in the end of his said 2d Edition ; tho' it be a Sheet of Rambling Stuff , and much of it consisting of his often Repeated Aspersions which have been Answered over and over , scarce deserving any further notice ; yet I may take notice of some Abusive Passages therein . Aganist R. Ashby Our Adversary saith , It is False , That he should have met G. W. at Ben. Antrobus his House , according to his Word , but did not ; tho' G. W. and others waited long for him . This he says is False , for he never gave G. W. his Word or Promise to meet him there , or any where else , to dispute the Points in Controversie , unless that he would first engage under his Hand to Retract what he proved him guilty of , &c. Q. Anot. p. 1. Answ. Our Adversary knows how Fallacious , Shuffling and Shifting he has been in this Point : For , 1. Observe his own Letter , Dated Jan. 29. 1693. ( In acceptance of my Printed Challenge ) thus , viz. George Whitehead , In Answer to your faint Challenge , in your pretended Vindication , to meet me in any place in London . I DO ACCEPT THEREOF and am come to London , being 60 Miles to meet you . Was not this his Word and Engagement Sufficient to meet me in London , without Exception ; as for a Convenient Place ▪ which B. A's was esteem'd to be , he could neither except against the Place or Time , when proposed to him at Jacob Frankling's , the of the Twelfth Month 1693. before several Witnesses . And I did not propose to F. B. any uncivil , confused , tumultuous or populous Meeting to Debate Matters ; if I had , he might justly have rejected my Proposal , but a Meeting of a few Sober , Moderate Persons , to be Witnesses only of what passed ; and such did meet with me at several Convenient Places in London , but were disappointed by F. B's keeping away . 2. The Conditional Retraction , proposed by him , was afterward contrived for an evasive shift , when he saw I was in earnest , and resolved to meet him before some Witnesses , as proposed , and appointed several Times and Places in London so to meet him , giving him timely notice aforehand , and waited for him several Hours , but he would not Adventure to come and give me Meeting , for a fair Disquisition of Matters in Controversie , unless I would either submit them to the Judgment and Determination of Persons of a contrary Perswasion , or aforehand engage to such a Conditional Retraction ; as he proposed ; all which appeared designed shuffles , and shameful evasions , to shun Meeting as aforesaid , ( contrary to his own Word and Acceptance before-cited ) as may be seen more at large in my Answer , Entituled , The Counterfeit Convert a Scandal , &c. from p. 1 , to 9. and yet he has a most insolent and odious Custom of boasting , cracking , and upbraiding at a distance , and falsly telling the World , that Whitehead evaded and shuffled ( i. e. from Meeting him ) p. 2. which was his own act , not mine , but a notorious and gross Lie , as many then present can testifie how many Hours I waited for him time after time , and my Letters and Challenges also wherewith I followed him from time to time ; if he durst but produce them in Print , they would manifestly decide this Matter between us , wherein he most falsly asperseth me with his own Act of evasion and shuffling , as if he were such a Potent Goliah , and formidable or frighting Adversary : Alas poor empty , cracking , boasting , insulting Reviler ! Our Adversary again falsly Charges Is. Pennington , saying , he denies Christ , [ which by the way is an abominable Slander on that Innocent Man ] and calls Him that was Born of the Virgin , a Veil , &c. and then saith , Yet G. Whitehead , the Counterfeit Quaker , in his Book , Stiled , The Counterfeit Convert , &c. p. ●2 . vindicates him , [ What in denying of Ch●ist ? Oh horrible Falshood ! ] saying , A●d tho' I have evinced Is. Pennington's meaning on his words reflected on about the Body or Flesh of Christ , it follows not that I make his Expressions mine , seeing I note them as his , for ( says G. W. ) I may see cause otherwise to word the Matter , and yet our Intentions be the same , &c. Then our Adversary goes on Canting , Taunting , and Abusing us from this passage , as with Equivocating Jesuitism with a Witness , or Arius risen again under a new form and figure , &c. But herein our scornful Adversary has insinuated most grievous Lies against me , and others , 1. As denying Christ. 2. As intending the same . 3. Yet otherwise word the Matter , to Equivocate , and act the Jesuit . Now pray , you his Approvers , observe how notorious his Abuse and Calumny is in this very Matter ! That I was dissatisfied with wording that Matter , in some recited Expressions , I grant , but that Is. Penington's meaning , or mine either , was to deny Christ , I utterly deny . Observe the passage at large quoted , Counterfeit Convert , p. 72. which is this , viz. I know no Contemptuous Speeches of our Lord Jesus , or of Scriptures excused , consequently much less owned by me . And tho' I have evinced I. P's meaning on his words reflected on , about the Body or Flesh of Christ , it follows not , that I thereby make his Expressions mine , seeing I note them as his . I may see cause otherwise to word the Matter , and yet our Intentions be the same : We have not the same Expressions and Utterance in all Cases , and yet may aim at , and mean the same thing , but never to contemn our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ , ( or the Holy Scriptures which testifie of him ) in any respect , far be it from us so to do . Therefore T. C. ( yea , and F. B. too ) have grosly wronged and misrepresented us in these Matters . Now , pray observe , here 's no such Concession or Grant , as F. Bugg would insinuate , viz. That either Is. Penington denies Christ , or that I vindicate any such denial , or him therein , but the contrary ; far be it from us , either to contemn or deny our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ , or the Holy Scriptures , for they testifie of him , wherein is not the least Equivocation , or Jesuitism , Counterfeit , Two-fac'd Quakers , as Bugg unjustly and scornfully brands us , who has not only made eight or nine Repetitions of my words , [ about seeing cause otherwise to word the M●tter , and yet our Intentions the same ] but also impertinently and unjustly applies them to sundry and divers Matters to which they were never intended , and that designedly , to render us as odious as he can ; as for instance , he applies the said words of mine aforesaid , as if our Intentions tended , 1. To a Denial of Christ. 2. To a Denial of Preaching a Belief in Christ , as he is in Heaven above , p. 3. Q. Anat. 3. To a Contempt of Holy Scriptures , contrary to our Confessing the Divine Authority thereof , p. 4 , 5. 4. To what he calls Anti-Magistratical Principles , p. 5. Implying , that the Quakers intend all these , whatever they seriously confess or profess to the contrary , whereupon the Nick-name of Counterfeit Quaker is frequently cast upon us by this Implacable Adversary . It would fill a Volume , to set forth and enervate all his Scurrilous Abuses , Raileries , Absurdities , Forgeries , gross Slanders and Calumnies , in these and many other Matters . And further , to pacifie our angry Adversary as to what he has noted Fundamental Errors , Damnable Heresies , &c. ( tho' I cannot in Justice Charge the Persons accused in their Absence ) as , 1. God that died in us , &c. 2. And that when Christ ascended , he was separated from his Body . 3. And that Faith in Christ without us , as he Died for our Sins , and Rose again , was not necessary to OUR Salvation , p. 37. These I do really disown as contrary to my Sence and Judgment , and to Holy Scriptures Testimony , as sincerely believing , 1. The Only True and Living God is Immortal . 2. That Christ visibly Ascended in his Body . 3. And therefore that Christ did not only Die for our Sins , but Rose again for our Justification , and consequently that Faith in him , as he so Died , and Rose again , and Ascended into Glory , is necessary not only to our Salvation , but to all others that have certain Demonstration or Proof of the same , afforded unto them either by an Effectual Living Ministry , or Revelation of the Spirit . The unbelief thereof , when so demonstrated , I count as real a Sin , and dangerous , as it was in them who would not believe that Jesus was the Christ , when on Earth , who therefore were liable to Die in their Sins . Yet for those Moral and Pious Gentiles , that have not such Discovery of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ , nor outward Means thereof afforded to them , we may not condemn them , lest we should reflect upon God , but leave them to his Universal Grace and Mercy in Jesus Christ , who is given for a Light unto the Gentiles , and to 〈◊〉 God's Salvation to the Ends of the Earth ; wherein we hope no Professed Christians will be so Harsh , Uncharitable , or Atheistical , as to conclude such liable to Damnation or Destruction , for want of Scripture , or an outward Ministry , when God does not afford the same to them , seeing he has afforded and given the greater , even Christ himself ▪ to be both the Light of the Gentiles , and Salvation to the Ends of the Earth , that they believing in him the Light , may be saved by him , and have Eternal Life ; it being the Condemnation , that Light is come into the World , and Men believe not , but love Darkness rather than Light , because their Deeds are Evil , John 3. And the Lord God has not left Himself , or Mankind , without Witness , both immediate and mediate in his Creation , thereby leaving all them inexcuseable , who persist in Impenitency and Rebellion against him , and his Light and Grace in them . Whereas I intimated in my Epistle to The Counterfeit Convert in these words , viz. I do hereby sincerely declare , That 't is not for Controversie sake that I am so much engag'd therein ; nor am I the beginner of these Controversies , being wholly defensive , &c. And what has our Adversary against this ? [ I know it to be very true , tho' the Devil and all his Agents should say the contrary , and endeavour to outface me with their Lies ] . Our Adversary saith , viz. I am willing to let Richard Ashbye know , that his Brother Whitehead is false in this also : And why so ? For ( quoth F. B. ) he writ against Episcopalians , Presbyterians , Independants , and Baptists , before ever they wrote against him . Answer , I deny that , and we have no proof but his own bare ipse dixit for it . Some of them , ( i. e. Presbyterians in Cromwell's time , when the Episcopal had no Power ) begun to Persecute and Imprison me and others , and also to defame us in Print before ever I was concerned in Printed Controversie against them ; and it was the worst and most rigid sort that I was so concerned against , and therefore not the beginner of either of those first Controversies , ( i. e. with some Presbyterians ) nor yet of these with this Adversary , but was and am still wholly defensive . And suppose ( as he saith ) I had writ Ten Books against others to One Book against me , of any one Man's Writing , I did not write Ten Books against any one Man , for only his One Book against me : But suppose Ten Books wrote either by Ten Persons , more or fewer , either against me in particular , or against me , inclusively with others ; and I had or have wrote Ten Answers to those Ten Books ; this proves me not a Contentious Scribler , as he renders me ; but still I am on the defensive part , and put upon a necessity of being defensive . Yet , to prove me false herein , our Adversary adds , viz. And in Nine Months time he wrote Three Books against me , to one of mine against the Quakers ; and Two of them without any fresh occasion given him . But F. Bugg knows he gave the first occasion , he begun the Controversie , and that I was wholly defensive therein , by way of Answer to his bitter Invectives , and foul Aspersions against the Quakers ( so called ) their Order and Discipline ; for did I begin to be concerned , before his Book De Christiana Libertate came forth ? No ; 't was his foul Abuses in that Book against us , gave me the first occasion to appear in Print against him , and after that his divers other abusive Books and Pamphlets against us , both before and since he turn'd to the Priests , and so often falsly accusing us the said People with Contempt of the Scripture , denying Jesus to be Christ , despising his Ordinances , his Ministers and Magistrates , making Divisions in Church and State , p. 7. &c. with many more Calumnies , and all to excuse and cover his own base Backsliding and Self-condemned Apostacy , and Judas-like to incense both Priests and Rulers against us by his foul Railery , black and odious Characters which he has maliciously put upon us ; but as to the latter , the Lord has hedged up his Way , and manifested his Folly , restless Envy , and implacable deadly Malice unto many ; and our God has given us Power and Zeal to withstand and oppose him therein , and trample upon his great Malice , and such fruitless Attempts to Inveterate Adversaries . As to our Adversary's Postscript to G. W. about his aforesaid Letters to William Smithies and Isaac Archer , which he questions , if he has not rightly Interpreted the purport of , I must needs say it appears a very idle , silly , boasting Romance , and scurrilous piece of fictitious Forgery feigned upon me , and in my Name , and tho' never so said , nor sayable by me : See how unlike G. Whitchead , or any other Quaker , he introduces his feigned Story , viz. G. W. I perceive how uneasie you are , and how smooth you appear , as in your Letters to Mr. Smithies and Mr. Archer ; and , by the tenure thereof , methinks I hear you say , Good Gentlemen be so kind to us , the distressed and perplexed Quakers , as to stop F. Bugg from writing against our Errors , &c. with much more such stuff : Is this like my Language ? He never heard me say any such thing : Oh false ! Oh silly ! Oh idle Romance . CHAP. V. A Brief Answer to F. Bugg's Pretended Brief History of Quakerism ; Stiled , The Quakers set in their True Light. UPON a serious perusal of the said pretended History , and comparing the same with his other Reproachful Books and Pamphlets against the People called Quakers , which have been duely Answered , and justly Refuted in Course . His Title , The Quakers set in their True Light , is very impertinent to his partial and false History , tho' very true as to the Quakers , whose True Light is no other but Christ the True Light , which lighteth every Man coming into the World , John 1. 9. This same pretended History of F. Bugg's appears to be chiefly made up of the same Abusive and Calumnious Stuff which his other Pamphlets are composed of , and frequently reiterated by him , tho' plainly refuted , which being now by him turned into History , appears a sordid kind of imposing the Credit of his own presumptuous Authority , as Historian , even in those very things which he cannot maintain in Controversie , nor support his own Credit in ; therefore as a most impertinent , partial and envious Historian he may be justly deemed . Please to take a few Instances of F. Bugg's false Stories , and gross Calumnies , in his said pretended History before clearly refuted , i● our Answers to him and other Apostates , &c. F. Bugg in his Epistle , Dedicated to the Bishop of London , compares the Quakers to Magicians of Egypt , to Simon Magus the Sorcerer , to Juglers ; rendring them no better than Hereticks , Blasphemers , and like Satan himself , and his Ministers , thus odiously representing them . All which , and much more such like Stuff , we reject as his own gross and sordid Calumnious Railery , and hope the said Bishop , on serious Consideration , will not Credit nor Patronize such gross Railery , nor Esteem it for his Reputation or Honour , to be Credulous in such Cases against us , from the bare Authority of not only partial , but bitter and implacable Adversaries , as the said Bugg has notoriously manifested himself to be . Here follows F. Bu●g's most general Slanders , repeated and refuted gross Calumnies , against the People called Quakers , in his said History , with brief Notes on them . 1. P. 3. Bugg saith : That none Preached Murther more than the Quakers . Note , What he alledges for this gross Calumny , is answered long since in our Book , Entituled , Christ's Lambs defended from Satan's Rage . 2. P. 4. That they sit at Devonshire-house to null , make void , and repeal as Vnlawful , what the King , Lords and Commons make Lawful at Westminster . Note , This Calumny is refuted in Answer to him before , and his envious design therein discovered . See The Counterfeit Convert , p. 46 , 47 , 48 , 49 , 50 , 51. 3. P. 9. That they prest into the World with Principles against ALL Rule and Government . Note , A loud and most gross Lie ; our Principles were always for Christ's Rule and Government among Christians , and for all Just Rule and Government among Men , as being God's Ordinance . 4. That the Foundation they went upon was , under pretence of magnifying the Light in themselves , to deny Jesus of Nazareth , to undervalue his Death and Sufferings , contemn his Laws contain'd in the Holy Scriptures , &c. p. 9. Note , These are notorious and most horrid Falshoods ; the quite contrary is asserted frequently by us : We magnifie Christ's Light and Life in Man for no such Ends , but the contrary , as thereby sincerely to own and follow the Lord Jesus Christ through his Sufferings , and according to his Laws : It was by his Light in us , that we were led to Suffer with him , and to be Crucified with him , and to Die with him , that we might Live and Reign with him , who tasted Death for every Man. 5. That G. W. hath vindicated this , i. e. that the Scripture was Serpent's Meat , Beastly Ware , &c. p. 9. Note , A foul Calumny against G. W. 't was never my Principle so to term the Scripture ; I have always had from my Childhood a real esteem and great love for the Holy Scriptures ; nor do I know of any among us that ever called them Beastly Ware , or Serpents Meat ; nor do we own the Expressions as applicable to Holy Scripture , we having also most generally bought Bibles , which I never heard any call Beastly Ware before , tho' probably some or other might so term such Mens perversions on Scripture , as make a Trade thereof for Money , or filthy Lucre , wherein I suppose they could not intend any contempt of Holy Scripture , but upon their Unscriptural Preaching for filthy Lucre. 6. That G. W. and his Followers , have published a Journal of G. F's deluding Charms , on purpose to Bewitch the People like SIMON MAGUS , p. 9. Note , This is still foul , filthy , and abusive ; for , 1. We know no deluding Charms in that Journal . 2. Nor had we any such purpose in the Publication thereof , as to Bewitch People . Behold how the Man belches , vomits and foams out his own shame against us , contrary to his own former Testimonies for us , &c. 7. That G. F. wrought Counterfeit Miracles , and never in the Name of Jesus , p. 11. Note , This is still enviously to Abuse G. F. and us ; we read not , in all his Writings , that ever he so much as pretended to work any Miracle , either by himself , or in his own Name , or by his own Power , but that by the Power of the Lord , ( which is no other Name but that which was given to Jesus Christ , Phil. 2. 9. ) some Great Things have been wrought , even in Answer to the Prayers ( and fervent Breathings to God ) of that Good Man , G. F. and others of the Church-partakers of the same Faith in Christ with him , wherein they did not pretend to pray in any other Name , Power , or Spirit , but that of Jesus Christ. 8. That both Fox and Parnell call themselves Christ in W. P's Since , p. 12. Note , I do not believe W. Penn either gave , or will own any such Sence , it being contrary to his and all our Sence so to call any Mortal Man upon Earth , tho' some may be come to THAT which was before Languages , or Humane Arguments were , i. e. to the Word and Power of God , and his Son Jesus Christ , which was only the same G. F. and J. Parnell intended . 9. That the Humanity of Christ the Quakers deny it as clearly , as the Socinians deny his Godhead , p. 12. Note , This is a gross and notorious Falshood , we ( i. e. the Quakers so called ) have often clearly and scripturally Confessed and Asserted both the Divinity and Humanity ( i. e. Manhood ) of Christ Jesus , as many of our Books manifestly prove . 10. That the Foxonian Quakers say of G. Fox , he is the Power of God , p. 13. Note , This also is positively denied by us as a gross and foul Calumny : Pray where do any of the Quakers so say of G. F ? I know not , ( neither do we own his scornful Nick-name ▪ and Distinction of Foxonian Quakers ) for we are sure 't is contrary to our Principle and Profession , to set up any Sect Masters over us , or to Adore any Mortal Man , or Finite Creature , as 11. God , as is also charged upon G. F's Followers touching him , pag. 14. which we deem also a notorious Falshood . 12. That all the Quakers Prophets being 400 in number , give , Witness to G. Fox , and Adore him as the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness . p. 15. Note , This old Story of Bugg's is a gross refuted Lie and Calumny , G. Fox is not so much as mentioned in that Epistle , out of which those words , [ viz. the Branch , the Star , the Son of Righteousness ] are taken , directed to the Camp of the Lord in England , p. 66. of E. B's Works . 13. That Baptism and the Lord's Supper God never commanded , are given forth by them who are Brazened with Deceit , p. 15. Note , This is falsly charged and stated in both , and contrary to what we have frequently confessed with respect to both ; for , 1. John's Baptism was by special Command from Heaven , and had its Dispensation and Time , as 't was Typical of Christ's Spiritual Baptism . 2. The Lord's Supper , both as in the Type , and in the Antitype , in the Figure , and in the Mystery and Substance , distinctly and truly considered in their placed Dispensations , we have often Scripturally confessed , and even in Answer to this Adversary , let him review The Quakers Vindication against F. Bugg ' s Calumnies , p. 2. Col. 1. 2. 14. That G. F. was a Blasphemer of the Blessed Trinity , p. 16. Note , A gross Calumny also : He neither Blasphemed nor Opposed the Scripture Trinity , ( i. e. Three ) of the Father , the Word , ( or Son ) and Holy Ghost , but objected against some Unscriptural Distinctions and Terms of Three distinct or separate Personalities , Subsistances , or Substances , Unscripturally by some supposed or implied in the Deity . 15. That the Quakers count all others , who are not of their Communion , Damned Persons , p. 16. This is both false , and too uncharitable for the People called Quakers , to be of such a severe Judgment , Charitably believing , that many not in outward Communion with them , under various Forms of Religion , may be sincere to God according to their Understandings and Belief ; as also that there are other Sheep which are not yet of this Fold , whom Jesus Christ will gather and fetch home into his Fold ; and that in every Nation and People , such as fear God and work Righteousness , are and shall be accepted of him . 16. That the Jesuit taught them this , That they must not by any means Swear , p. 17. Note , A gross Lye , for Jesus Christ taught us not to Swear , Mat. 5. and so did his Holy Apostle James , Chap. 5. And many of the Blessed Martyrs and Protestant Reformers , were of the same Judgment with us , whom the Papists Accused and Persecuted for the same , who imposed Swearing as their Priests taught , contrary to Christ's Command . 17. That this sullen and dogged Sect , is the Jesuit's natural and undoubted Issue , tho' like other Bastards , they are ashamed to own their Father , &c. p. 17. Note , These are like some of Bugg's false and shameful Raileries , and no such thing could he demonstrate in all the 25 Years , that he was Conversant among the People called Quakers , or since , nor what Jesuit was then his Father , or to whom he was then Bastard ; but the contrary he has in Print declared for the said People , and their Doctrine , even since he left them ; witness his Quakers Detected , Cited in our Quakers Vindication , and other Answers . But 't is an ill and nasty Bird that bewrays its own Nest , as he has done . These last Aspersions , of the Jesuits Teaching the Quakers , and they the Jesuits Natural Issue and Bastards , &c. Bugg Credulously pretends to Cite out of a Learned Divine's Book of the Church of England , but tells not his Name , that his Credit may be enquired into ; but whatever he be , he is of no Credit with us in this foul Aspersion and Abuse . 18. That the Quakers Allegorize the Death and Sufferings of Christ , his Passion , Atonement , Resurrection and Ascension to be within , p. 17. Note , This is a known Perversion and Falshood ; the true Spiritual-minded Quakers do not Allegorize away either the outward Sufferings , Passion , or Death , or Atonement , Resurrection , or Ascension of Jesus Christ , ( as if all these were within only ) for they really believe and own all these to have been done and transacted outwardly and literally , as well as they truly believe and own the Mystery , Spiritual Sence , Influence , and real Benefit and Advantage thereof , as Inwardly and Spiritually partaken of , felt , and experienced by every Sincere and Spiritual Believer in Christ Jesus . 19. That neither if you go to a Thousand of their Meetings , shall you hear one of their Preachers have such an Expression in their Mouths , as Consessing their Sins , and Begging Pardon for Jesus Christ's sake , p. 18. Note , This is a presumptuous Prediction , such Confession and Supplication have been oftentimes in publick among us , and may be again for ought F. B. knows , for them that want Forgiveness and Cleansing from Sin , well-knowing that the Lord requires both true Confession , and forsaking Sin ; tho' we do not Confess nor Pray by Book or Lyturgy after the Priest , yet we feel the Spirit of Christ making Intercession with Sighs and Groans , which cannot be uttered . 20. That the Scriptures are Beastly Ware , p. 21. Note , This Reproach and Blasphemy F. B. has often most falsly cast upon us ; 't is Answered before several times , and more fully hereafter . 21. That the Quakers first rose in the North , breaking all Law , Order , and Government , p. 22. That Quakerism flowed over all our Banks , of all Law , Order , and Government , both Divine and Humane , p. 24. Note , Both these are gross and very offensive Aspersions , before Answered and Refuted manifestly by our Christian Conversations . 22. That they have a great Tax Collected , to maintain their Teachers , Travellers , and Spies , both at Home and Abroad , p. 31. Note , For which gross Lies , F. Bugg quotes his own Authority , and bids see his Books , Battering Rams against New Rome , and New Rome Vnmask'd , wherein we do not only deny his imposed Authority , but have Refuted and Confuted the same in our Answers to those his Books quoted by him . 23. That by their Threatned Chronicle , they ( i. e. the Quakers ) intend to represent this Nation as a Persecuting , Bloody-minded People , p. 34. Note , No such Threatning or Intention are we justly Chargeable with , nor so to Represent this Nation , for 't is not so now , nor were the People thereof in general such , when Persecution was on foot ; but the Persecutors in it ( many of whom are since cut off ) did openly shew their Cruelty , by Imprisoning many to Death , and by making Havock and Spoil upon the Goods of many Families , to their great Impoverishment , and Ruin of divers , besides those that were Banished out of the Land by Persecutors ; but Blessed be God , and Thanks to the Present Government , the Case is now altered much for the better on that account , those Cruel Persecutions being stopt , and the present Persecution we are now under , being chiefly the vile Misrepresentations , gross Lies and Calumnies of dark and malicious Apostates and Backsliders , ( such as F. B. ) and their Adherents . 24. That the Quakers prefer their own Books before and above the Scripture , p. 37. That they prefer their Nonsensical Pamphlets before the Scriptures , being compared with the Contemptible Expressions they give them as BEASTLY WARE , &c. p. 38. Note , These are some of his Old Calumnies and Perversions frequently Answered and Refuted ; for yet again we solemnly say , We prefer the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament , as contained in the Bible , ( and that Book it self ) above , and to all other Books extant in the World , whether our own or any other Books whatsoever , as sincerely owning the Holy Scriptures aforesaid , not only to have been given by Divine Inspiration , but most eminently confirmed by Divine Authority . 25. That G. Keith could not in Conscience clear the Body of the Quakers from those Errors charged upon them in Pensilvania , in regard he knew them guilty thereof , p. 40. ( i. e. the Body of the Quakers . ) Note , The Body of the Quakers he did not Charge therewith , but a few in Pensilvania ; for the Body of the Quakers there have cleared themselves thereof , and he has seemed expresly to clear the Body or People called Quakers , and in particular our approved Writers in England , as Sound in the Christian Faith , as appears in his own Book , Entituled , A Serious Appeal , &c. Printed Anno 1692. If he will not stand to this , but contradict himself against us , we cannot help that , F. B. may take him by the Hand , and give him the Right Hand of Fellowship . 26. That the Principles and Practices of the Quakers , are contrary to those of the French Protestants , and indeed to all other Christians , p. 41. Note , Here are two great Falshoods contain'd in this Charge , and they are in general and indefinite Terms too ; for , first , as to those Principles of the French Protestants ( as Cited by F. Bugg himself , p. 41 , to 47. ) they Believe and Confess , 1. That there is but one God only , whose Being only is Simple , Spiritual , Eternal , Invisible , Immutable , Insinite , and Incomprehensible . 2. That in that Divine Being , there be the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost . 3. That the Father is the First Cause , in Order , and the Beginning of all things ; the Son his Everlasting Word ; the Holy Ghost his Vertue , Power , and Efficacy . 4. That tho' these Divine Three are distinct or distinguished ( i. e. as to their Relative Properties of Father , Son , and Holy Ghost ) yet not divided , but of One and the Same Essence ( i. e. Being ) Eternity , Power , and Equality 5. That the Doctrine contained in the Holy Scriptures , ( i. e. of the Old and New Testament ) proceeds from God , from whom only , and not from Men , it derives its Authority , and that all Matters necessarily required for the Worship of God , and our Salvation , are therein testified , ( they say contained ) and therefore that 't is not lawful for Men or Angels to add unto , take from , or change this DOCTRINE , ( i. e. the Doctrine necessary to God's Worship , and our Salvation , as they say . ) 6. That God , of his Rich Grace , Mercy and Bounty , delivers his Children through our Lord Jesus Christ , ( i. e. from Sin and Condemnation . ) 7. That Jesus Christ , being the Wisdom and Eternal Son of God , took upon him the Nature of Man , so that he is God and Man ; ( but one Lord Jesus Christ ) and , that he might be able to suffer in Soul and Body , was made like unto us in all things , Sin only excepted ; so that as to Man's Nature , he was indeed of the Seed of Abraham and David , Conceived in due time in the Womb of the Virgin Mary , by the Secret and Incomprehensible Power of the Holy Ghost ; and that in one and the same Lord Jesus Christ , his Two Natures ( i. e. as God and Man ) are inseparably united , yet each retaining its distinct Properties ; so considering Christ in his Deity , as not to deprive him of his Manhood , we having one Mediator between God and Men , even the Man Christ Jesus . 8. That by that one Sacrifice which Jesus Christ Offered upon the Cross , we are Reconciled unto God ( i. e. being Reconciled by his Death , we , who believe in him , shall be saved by his Life , Rom. 5. ) 9. That the Lord Jesus Christ , by the Power and Spirit of God , was Raised from the Dead ; [ to which I add , That he ever lives in his own proper glorious Body , in which he Ascended into Glory , and wherein he is Head of his Mystical Body , the Church , which as united to him and his Glorious Body , is One Body , 1 Cor. 12. 12 , 20 , 27. Ephes. 1. 23. and 4. 4. and 5. 30. Phil. 3. 21. ] 10. That Jesus Christ is so conferred upon us , as to be our Advocate , ( with the Father ) and that he commandeth us in our Prayers to present our selves ( or Pray ) to the Father in his Name . 11. That God will have the World Ruled ( and restrained ) by Laws and Civil Government , and therefore he appointeth Kings and Common-wealths , and other kinds of Principalities , whether Hereditary , or otherwise , ( i. e. as it pleaseth him ) and also what pertaineth to the Ministration of Justice , whereof he himself is the Author , therefore hath he delivered the Sword ( i. e. of Justice ) into the Magistrates Hands , &c. 12. That also much Honour and Reverence ought to be given to them as unto God's Officers , and due Obedience yielded unto their Laws , and Tribute , and Taxes paid , and the Yoke of Subjection born , if the Magistrates be Infidels , so that the Soveraign Government of God be preserved . Thus I have abstracted divers of the most material passages out of the Citation before , of the French Protestants Confession of Faith , which he has set forth an Abstract of , quoting the first Volume of J. Quick's History , Synod . in Gal. Reform . p. 6 , to 15. Note , that in the second and fourth Article the word Persons is left out , and that for the more plainness , a few Parenthesis's ( some beginning with i. e. ) are added , ( and the ninth altered more into Scripture words ) in this Abstract , which I am perswaded ( as they are sincerely owned by me ) may be freely owned , assented unto , and signed by most Quakers ( so call'd ) in England , and elsewhere , consequently so far from being contrary thereunto , or to all other Christians , either in Principles or Practices , as F. B. has most falsly and slanderously Misrepresented and Aspersed them ; The Lord ( if it be his Will ) give him to see and confess his great Injustice and Injury before he Dies . But a little further , to pursue his base and false Dealing . 27. F. B. again very abusively and falsly quotes E. Burrouogh's Works thus , viz. About Water-Baptism , p. 518. We utterly deny , and do say , it is no Ordinance of God , but it is an Institution of the Whore of Rome , and England received it by a Popish Institution , &c. p. 44. Note , Which base Perversion and Abuse is evidently Refuted in The Quakers Vindication , p. 2. Col. 1 , 2. thus , This is very partially and unjustly Cited , and in the first words falsly ; for E. Burroughs's Answer in the very place is thus , viz. As for Baptism and the Supper of the Lord , we do own it , and it is practised of us in the Life and Power of God ; but as for your Baptism , that is to say , SPRINKLING INFANTS , calling it the Baptism into the Faith , and that they are made Members of the Church thereby , and that it is a Seal of Regeneration , as you say , [ these foregoing words Bugg leaves out ] that we do utterly deny , and do say it is no Ordinance of God ; neither was it ever commanded by him , or practised by his Saints , &c. [ thus F. B. before Cited E. B. ] But again . Note , Here he did not say , that Water-Baptism ( without distinction ) is a Popish Institution , but objected against Sprinkling Infants , and calling it the Baptism into the Faith , &c. for he knew that Water Baptism it self was practised by John the Baptist , ( by special Commission from Heaven peculiar to him and his Ministry ) and also in the Apostle's time by some of them , long before the Pope was . Wherefore F. Bugg's gross Perversion and Abuse in this and many other things , ( too numerous now to recite ) are notorious and shameful ; the Lord the Righteous Judge ( to whom we commit our Cause ) humble this Adversary , if it be his Blessed Will ; and let all others among us , &c. take warning from his woful and lamentable Backsliding and Fall. Let one most Scandalous and Blasphemous Calumny be yet further Remarked , viz. Fr. Bugg's repeated Charge against the Quakers , viz. these Contemptible Expressions , as calling the Scriptures Beastly Ware , &c. as before ; and the like we are Charged with in that most malicious wicked Piece , The Snake in the Grass , where divers gross Calumnies are broached from Bugg's Authority and Credit . I having examined that Book out of which the said Expressions have been pretended to be taken , Entituled , A Brief Discovery of a Threefold state of Antichrist , Printed Anno 1633. p. 9. I find no such gross Expressions as calling the Scriptures Beastly Ware , but divers severe Reflections upon the Covetous , Persecuting Priests in those Days , then writ by some Prisoners at York-Castle , 1653. and what 's there called Beastly Ware is not the Scriptures , but what Babylon's Merchants sell for a large Price , i. e. a Rabble of Notions heaped up in their Brain all the Week , and which they sell for filthy lucre's sake , &c. calling them also , Idol-Merchants , Costly Sermon-makers , who Persecuted the pure Truth the Saints live in , p. 9 , 10. of the said Brief Discovery ; but not a word of calling the Scriptures themselves Beastly Ware ; and I am perswaded such Blasphemy and Contempt of Holy Scripture was far from the Thoughts of those said Prisoners , and that which they would have abominated and rejected with Abhorrence , if they had then been Charg'd therewith . Thus the Perversion and Injury done by F. B. &c. in this Matter is apparent , in his putting Mens dark Notions for the Holy Scriptures . The said Prisoners called Babylon's Merchants Rabble of Notions , Beastly Ware ; but F. B. says it is the Scriptures which they so call ; what a shameful Liar and Perverter is this ! He pretends to prove W. Penn a Liar for once , p. 38. Brief History . But 't is more true , that he is more than once , yea , often prov'd a Liar , and gross Defamer of others ; and that his pretended Pious Endeavours ( by you his Approvers and Ministers aforesaid ) are proved very Impious , and you may Answer for him , and Vindicate him , if you please , or can , since you have given him such high Approbation and Congratulation , which he has divulged to your Disgrace ; for F. B's Answering by repeating Calumnies and Slanders against us , will deserve little further notice , since so often unanswerably Confuted already ; and if you his Approvers , will not adventure to attempt his Vindication , as well as Approbation , nor yet shew any publick dislike of his Abuses , scandalous and reproachful Scribling , but leave him to his own Vindication , and farther to reproach us , we may take it as an Indication , that you are Conscious his Defaming Work is not justifiable nor warrantable in the sight of God , or Just Men , and that you have over-shot your selves in his Approbation ; and the more guilty your selves in suffering Sin to lye upon him , without just Reproof suitable to his publick Offence and Crime against Truth : But if you will be mute in this Matter , and suffer him to persist in his wonted Course of Vilifying and Abusing us , without your publick Reprehension or Dislike thereof , then may you be farther justly called in question , and Exposed thereupon for your neglect of Justice . CHAP. VI. A Brief Answer to Fr. Bugg's Two Printed Papers , Dated March , 1696. TO his Printed Paper unduly Stiled , George Whirehead's Oath , unjustly Accusing the Quakers with Prevaricating about Swearing . His Story hereupon , both first , As to the Form of the Oath pretended . Secondly , And as to its being Read to him . G. W. affirms he is wronged in this Accusation and Story by F.B. and that he is not Conscious to himself thereof , but ( as preferring Truth 's Reputation before his own ) patiently suffers and bears it , among many other Personal Injuries , Misrepresentations , and Detractions cast upon him by this Adversary , whom I ask , 1. F. B. who was thy Informer about this said Oath pretended ? 2. Out of what Book was it Read to G. W. and by whom ? 3. Suppose I had failed of our Principle in that Case ( as I have not ) hast thou done either fairly or justly , thence to asperse the Quakers in general with Prevaricating about Swearing ? Must they all suffer for my Fault , if I had committed it , which I did not , as many can Witness ? As to the Association , and his taunting Insinuations concerning the King and Government , and our Affection and Fidelity towards them , and forming an Address for us like an Officious Agent , we hope we have given that Satisfaction , as to our Innocency , which this and the rest of our most Inveterate Adversaries cannot extinguish , and the Acceptance and Favours which ( as a People ) we have received ( through God's Providence ) from the Government , no doubt does vex and fret this our Implacable Adversary , seeing his many Attempts , and strenuous Endeavours to render us Obnoxious , and to Incense the Government against us , and by his utmost Endeavours ( that way to prevent our Belief ) are so manifestly disappointed and frustrated , Blessed and Praised be our God for Ever , who hath attended our Endeavours . But let it be observed how sordid , brutish and unnatural it was in F. Bugg , so strenuously to labour to prevent the Quakers Relief in the Case of Oaths , [ since he Married his Son into an Honest Family of Quakers ( so called ) and appeared very officious ( as I am credibly informed ) to promote the Marriage ] as if he would rather have them also Ruined , than Relieved ? As to our Christian Confession of Christ , his Divinity and Humanity , and his Glorious Body in Heaven , we have sufficiently and sincerely evinced according to Holy Scripture , against this Adversary , and other Opposers , which they are not able to Confute , knowing also that we are not necessitated to give farther Answer to his Impertinent Questions , especially since his Work is so much falsly to Accuse and Asperse us with sly and unjust Insinuations , to render us Offensive and Obnoxious to the Government : Besides , One Fool may ask more Questions than Twenty Wise Men may Answer . To F. Bugg's Paper , Stiled , A Brief Reply , which with the other before-mentioned , he having delivered at the House of Lords , which one of them gave me . His false Charge of our Contempt of Christ , and the Scriptures , being Answered and Refuted before , in several Answers to his Malicious Books and Pamphlets , he proceeds in his wonted Course of Perversion and Defaming still , for which he frequently quotes his own Presumptuous Authority , and Refuted Pamphlets . As to his offence at the Words he Cites of an Imagined God beyond the Stars , and their Carnal Christ. We say , First , The True Infinite and Omnipresent God , tho' in Heaven above , yet is not confined or limitted to beyond the Stars , nor can the Heaven of Heavens contain Him. 2. The True Lord Jesus Christ who Ascended far above all Heavens , that he might fill all things , He is not a Carnal Christ , but a Spiritual and most Glorious Christ , in Soul , Spirit , and Body ; therefore to deem or call him a Carnal Christ , ( which I know none among us do ) is so far to undervalue his Glory and Dignity , that it appears no less than Blasphemy ; and how F. B. will clear himself thereof , I know not . His Charge against the Quakers , That they cannot Sign the Association , and thereby Declare the King Rightful and Lawful King for Conscience sake . This Consequence is a Gross and Envious Perversion , and Contradicted by his own following Confession , viz. And yet they tell you , that their not signing it , is not in opposition to his being Declared Rightful and Lawful King : But then to invalidate this , he questions , Who says so ? No Body ; that 's false , for his words , they tell you , imply some Body ; but from what Meeting ? Answer , An Approved Meeting , by the People called Quakers , whom he vilifies to the Government , and not from Two or Three Quakers under the Hedge , as he scoffs . That we never made an Address to His Present Majesty , is a known Lie ; we have made several , and that with Real Gratitude too , for the Kindnesses and Priviledges we have Received , and Enjoy by Law. These Two said Papers of F. Buggs ' were by him delivered at the House of Lords to divers of them , with manifest Design to frustrate our Relief in the Cafe of Oaths ; but the Lord our God hath frustrated his Evil Enterprizes , and Design of Malice , as he hath done , and will frustrate the Tokens of Liars , and Malicious Incendiaries , and Treacherous Judas'S , Apostates , &c. Triumph and Rejoice over their Malice , ye Lambs of Christ's Fold , who hath from time to time defeated their Mischievous Enterprizes and Attempts , and disappointed their Deadly Malice , and Outragious Fury , and let them fume and fret themselves in their Madness and Disappointments , until the Fire of their own kindling ( wherein they labour and toyl themselves ) devour them , if they will not Repent , and be Reclaimed . CHAP. VII . A Brief Answer and Reply to F. Bugg's Second Summons ( as he directs it ) to the City Abell , 2 Sam. 20. To deliver up Sheba the Son of Bichri , that Man of Belial ; by way of Metaphor alluding to the Quakers and G. Whitehead , &c. HIS Presumptuous Impeachment , and Charge , pretended on Behalf of the Commons of England , ( i. e. by Fra. Bugg ) against the Quakers Yearly Meeting , is ( with Aggravation ) repeated by him thus , viz. I did not Impeach the Quakers for not paying Tythes , though that be Crime enough , but your Yearly Meeting for Imposing the non-payment of Tythes upon your People , and that too as a grand Oppression , and Antichristian Yoke ; and I say again , for you to meet Annually by way of Convocation , TO make and promulgate such Antimagistratical Laws , not only against , but contray to the Laws of the Land , is both against the King's Prerogative , the Rights of Parliaments , and Property of the Subject ; yea , and of dangerous Consequence . And I say again , that by these your Canon Laws , you do Actually Absolve the King's Subjects ( if the Quakers may be so called ) from their Active Obedience to the Laws of the Land , which requires them to pay Tythes , &c. Note , Reader , he has here added the word Antimagistratical , and left out Fundamental before the word Laws , in his first Presumptuous Impeachment also , as if he would render us not only guilty of Sedition in our said Meeting , but of High-Treason . He most maliciously and virulently aggravates his said Impeachment , p. 4. in Charging the Quakers with A New Jurisdiction , lately Erected by a few Vsurpers , who hold a Convention Annually at London , by way of Convocation , TO make Laws and Ordinances contrary and repugnant to the Laws and Statutes of the Realm , which tend to Subvert the Government , and if not timely prevented , may be of dangerous Consequence . Which Presumptuous Impeachment ( as 't is pretended in Behalf of the Commons of England ) contains divers gross Lies in 't : As , 1. That we meet Annually either with any such Intention or Design , as TO Make , Contrive , Promulgate and Impose Antimagistratical Laws and Ordinances , either against the King's Prerogative , Rights of Parliaments , or Property of the Subjects , is a foul , notorious , bloody , persecuting Calumny , and contrary to both our Innocent Intention , and Design of our Meeting . 2. A New Jurisdiction lately Erected by a few Usurpers , are both gross and horrid Lies , for our Annual Meetings have been of many years standing , with the general Approbation of our People , for the maintaining our Christian Society , Charity , Order , Discipline and Testimony , which our Lord Jesus Christ has gathered us into , and requires of us . 3. To make Laws against the King's Prerogative , and Rights of Parliaments , &c. tending to Subvert the Government , which consequently appears not only highly Seditious , but highly Treasonable : This is both a highly false , persecuting and bloody Aspersion , tending also to incense and stir up severe and bloody Persecution against us . Oh horrid , cruel and inhumane ! But if upon a Judicial Examination of his said Presumptuous Impeachment , as being in the Name or Behalf of the Commons of England , it be found both unwarrantable , and a high Misdemeanour , and repugnant to the Rights and Priviledges of Parliaments , in him to Assume such a Power and Jurisdiction , without any Priviledge , either as Member of Parliament , or any Commission or Power from the Parliament ; if to excuse this presumption , he should alledge , That 't was but a Jest , Romance , or Mock Impeachment , as he has excused his Mock-Trial , and Mock-Pillory , ( as he calls it ) whereon he exposed Twelve Persons , and Citizens of London , of good Reputation and Credit , under the Character , Reproach and Scandal of Perjury , at this rate he may take the Liberty to Reproach , Defame and Scandalize any Consciencious and Peaceable Subjects , with the most Enormous or Heinous Crimes in the World , and that with the highest Malice and Virulency he can , to Ruin , Destroy , and Murther them in their Reputations , Persons , and Estates , and then pretend 't was but in Jest or Mockery . But then see what Cruel Mocking he takes liberty to , and what a Cruel Mocker he is ; And how unlike a Christian Convert , or Moral Man , he acts , and yet divers of his near Relations are called Quakers , and in Society with the same People , who he has so Presumptuously , Injuriously and Foully Impeached and Charged , as before : Oh Unnatural , Brutish and Cruel Mocker ! One great Complaint is , That for his Erecting a Mock-Pillory , they Indicted him at the Old-Bailey , London , p. 3. Who were they Indicted him ? 'T was not the Persons grosly Scandalized by his Mock-Trial , and Mock-Pillory , for hitherto they have been very Patient and Merciful to him , in that they have not as yet entered their Actions of Defamation severally against him , according to his Demerits , as also in that they did not assent to have him Prosecuted by other Persons , that would have done it in a Higher Court. The Advice given in our Yearly Meeting 's Epistle to our Friends , That their Sufferings ( i. e. for Conscience sake ) be duly gathered , truly entered and kept , implies their Passive Obedience to the Government , wherein they cannot for Conscience sake actively Obey , consequently no Sedition , nor Design of Subversion to the Government on our Parts , either in the said Meeting or Epistles . Which said Epistles are no Impositions a● falsly Charged , being Recommended to our own Friends , as Concurring with their Antient Testimony , received not from Men , Assemblies , or Humane Contrivance , but from Jesus Christ ; as is our Christian Testimony against that known Oppression of Tythes , as Claimed , ( and with severe Persecution ) Imposed by divers of the Clergy , which renders them not only a Burthen or Yoke , but the more against Christ , as Persecution is ; tho' our great Offence to this Mocker is , to deem Tythes now Antichristian ; we mean , 1. Because Abolished by Jesus Christ. 2. Ab Origine , ( i. e. since ended by Christ ) as Imposed by the Pope and his Clergy . 3. As Imposed and Forced with severe Persecution , Imprisonment , Sequestrations and Seizures by Pretended Ministers of Christ ; contrary also to his own express Command , Mat. 10 8. as well as to his true Ministers Example . 4. Contrary also to the sincere Testimony of divers Reformed Protestants , and their Martyrs , who were both Men of Good Fame , Piety , and Learning , as was John Wickcliff , William Swinderby , Walter Brute , William Thorpe , and the Bohemians , with others mentioned in the Book of Martyrs , &c. did bear Testimony against the Corruption of the Popish Clergy , and against Tythes , and Compelled Maintenance , by the Civil Authority , and this of their opposing Tythes was made a principal Article against them by the Papists , as more largely appears in the first Volume of Martyrs , in the Reigns of Richard II. Henry IV. and Henry V. To this the Mocker gives us but a very slim Answer , and poor Come-off , viz. By which you seem to make no difference between a Popish and Protestant Clergy , for which the Church of England will not thank you , p. 1. Pray observe what a silly Argument this is , as if that which is a Sin , and Antichristian in Papists , were not a Sin in such Protestants who are guilty of the same Fact ; but testified against by true Protestants and Martyrs , and yet therein no Contrivers of Sedition or Conspiracy to Subvert the Government , as in effect we are Injuriously Accused by this Cruel Mocker , the principal Article of his Charge ( or Impeachment ) being that of deeming Tythes ( as now Claimed by Priests ) Antichristian ( or against Christ ) although for this we Cited both John Wickcliff in particular , and William Thorpe also more at large , who expresly saith , Those Priests that will Challenge or Take Tythes , deny that Christ is come in the Flesh , [ which to do ☞ is Antichristian . ] Did not William Thorpe deem them Antichristian then ? And has not this Mocker then , like the Papists , Accused these Martyrs ( and others ) Testimony , as tending to Sedition and Subversion of the Government , as well as he has done by the Quakers ? But the Cruel Mocker mutely gives the Go-by to William Thorp's Testimony , and John Wickcliff's also , against endowing the Priests with Tythes , and Temporal Possessions , largely Cited against him in our Answer to his Impeachment , p. 2 , 3 , 4. All this he silently passes by , and instead of entering into the Merits of the Cause thereupon , he repeats and aggravates his Impeachment and Charge with Persecuting Invectives , fleeing to , and preferring the Secular Power to Christ's Power , and Humane Law to Christ's Law , as what is made Law at Westminster , is made Vnlawful at your Yearly Meeting , yea , a Grand Oppression and Antichristian Yoak ; and as such , you Charge and Command your People not to pay Tythes , p. 2. But where we do so Charge and Command he shews us not , we find it not in our Epistles , which he grounds his Impeachment upon : He Argues not like a Christian , but like a Temporizing Persecutor , in preferring a Humane Law to Christ's Law : If Tythes were Abolisht by Christ's Law , as the said Martyrs Argue , who therein were not guilty of Sedition or Treason , by preferring Christ's Prerogative , and his Law , to all Temporal Power and Laws . His Accusing me with refusing to meet him according to my Proposal , p. 9. and saying , I find G. W. will not come forth himself , he feareth the Fate of Hungate the Jesuit against Hall , p. 11. are both notoriously false , the contrary is well known ; first , G. W. earnestly pressed for a meeting with him according to his own Proposal , which was , To make it appear before any Six , Ten , or Twelve Competent WITNESSES , who are Moderate , Men of Sence and Common Reason , that Fr. Bugg has grosly Abused and Perverted Truth , and Wronged the People called Quakers , both in Charge , Citation , and Observation , &c. ( and this is all fully proved against him , in the afore-mentioned Answers quoted in the Preface ) and which Proposal G. W. never declined , but F. B has evaded and perverted it . Instead of so many Witnesses to bear Witness to what passed , he 's for the Judgment and Decision of so many Episcopalians , Presbyterians , Independents and Bapists , whose Hand ( he confesseth ) is against G. W 's Impeachment , p. 2. So that F. B. would not be content with their being Witnesses only , as G. W. proposed , but must have them Judges for Decision , that he might be sure aforehand to have G. W. Condemned by a Party , against and contrary to him , even in some Points of Doctrine concerned in the Difference , yet would have G. W. submit to their Judgment and Decision , or else no meeting with him . Witnesses as proposed by G. W. would not be accepted , but Judges for Decision , which was to pre-engage G. W. to submit , and give away his Religion , Faith , and Conscience aforehand , to Persons of different Perswasions , ( Oh sad ! Oh dark ! Oh irreligious Witness ! ) yet if esteemed Moderate , the more fit to be Witnesses of the Controversie , than Judges or Lords over G. W. his Conscience and Faith ; who dare trust them with the former , but may not submit to the latter . As also the Evidence of any Moderate Men , tho' of different Perswasions , might be trusted to decide whether F. B. had rightly and truly Cited and Quoted the right Book and Page ; but whether he had thence fairly observed the true Sence thereof , this would include some Matters of Doctrine and Conscience , wherein G. W. and all true Christians , refuse to be Imposed upon by opposite Parties . To pass by many of F. B's foul Aspersions , and cruel Mockings ; in p. 4. he perverts both mine and Isaac Penington's Words and Intentions ; as where in Counterfeit Convert , p. 72. I said , I may see cause otherwise to word the Matter , and yet our Intentions be the same ; whereupon F. B. thus observes , viz. The English of which is , though Is. Penington deny Jesus of Nazareth to be Christ , and make HIM but a Vail , a Garment , &c. and G. W. confess him to be Christ , yet they mean all one thing , ONLY a Garment . And the Light that was therein Crucified , is the Christ , p. 4. Answer , Here are Four Falshoods in this Observation , 1. That Is. Penington denies Jesus of Nazareth to be Christ ; we find not that denial in his Works . 2. That he makes HIM BUT a Vail , a Garment , &c. This is not so spoken by Is. Penington of Him , ( i. e. the Intire Jesus of Nazareth , or Son of God ) but of his Flesh which he took on him , called the Vail by the Apostle himself , Heb. 10. 20. wherein he does not call Jesus Christ himself but a Vail or Garment . 3. That Is. Penington and G. W. mean that Jesus is only a Garment , is a foul Perversion , and never so intended by either . 4. Or that they mean , ' t was the Light that was therein that was Crucified , and only is the Christ. This also is an absurd Consequence and Perversion , for they mean that Christ was Crucified according to the Flesh , that he was put to Death as concerning the Flesh , 1 Pet. 3. 18. which his Spirit or Light within could not be , therefore the one thing G. W. and Is. P. Intend or mean , is neither to deny Jesus of Nazareth to be Christ , nor that he is only a Garment , as both are unjustly Charged ; and 't is to be observed how F. B's Friend , George Keith , has Contradicted and Confuted him in this very Charge in his Serious Appeal , Printed but in 1692. against Cotton Mather , p. 25 , 26. in these words . viz. But because he cannot fix his false Charge upon me of denying Christ , he Essayeth ( but with as ill Success ) to fix it upon my Brethren , as Dear Isaac Penington , whom I well knew to be a true Believer in the Lord Jesus Christ , and whose Soul I believe is in Rest in Christ , in Heavenly Glory . And as to his words , we can never call the bodily Garment Christ , but that which appeared and dwelt in the Body . It is easie to put a fair and charitable Construction on it , as well as on Christ's words , when he said , He that hath seen me , hath seen the Father , and yet many saw Christ's Body of Flesh , that never saw the Father . But to clear this thing , I. P. speaketh this in opposition to Socinians , and others Tinctur'd with Socinian Principles ; as if the Manhood of Christ that was Born of the Virgin , excluding the Eternal Word , was the only and whole Christ , whereas Christ was before his Body of Flesh , therefore he is said to have come in the Flesh , and to have taken Flesh ; * and if we consider Christ as he was before the World was , by whom all things were Created ; and in respect of his Godhead , the Body was not that , but the Garment of it when he assumed it . But when we consider Christ as Man , as every other Man hath both Soul and Body belonging to his Essential Constitution as Man , so had Christ , and still hath , a most Glorious Soul and Body . Observe now how Charitably and Plainly G. Keith hath Vindicated Is. Penington , both contrary to F. Bugg's and Tho. Crisp's Calumnies and Abuses against him in this very Matter . As to F. B's Railing and Scoffing at Womens Meetings , p. 5. falsly Accusing G. Fox with assuming Divine Attributes to HIMSELF , and the Quakers with Adoring him , p. 6. These often repeated Calumnious Abuses are Answered and Refuted in these Answers to F. B. &c. viz. 1. A Just Enquiry . 2. A Charitable Essay . 3. Innocency Triumphant . 4. The Counterfeit Convert . 5. The Quakers Vindication against F. Bugg ' s Calumnies . 6. The Contentious Apostate , and his Blow Refelled . 7. The Contentious Apostate Recharged . 8. The Quakers Answer . 9. Innocency against Envy . Some of which Answers are Sold by Tace Sowle , and others by Thomas Northcott , London . F. B. has not given a fair Reply or Answer to any of them ; but for want of better Matter , Reprints his old Refuted Stuff over and over . Among those called Divine Attributes , which he accuseth G. F. with assuming to himself , are these , viz. 1. Who is the Son of God. 2. I was in the Paradice of God. 3. That it was Christ the Eternal Power of God , that spake in me at that time unto them . 4. Pretended Miracles wrought in his own Name only , Journ . p. 371 , 374. 5. He that hath the same Spirit that raised up Jesus Christ , is equal with God , p. 5. Which with other pretended Instances partially and perversly pickt up , this Mocker terms a few Instances of Blasphemy . But , 1. To the first , If G. F. said , Who is the Son of God , ( which should rather have been a Son of God ) yet therein he did not say , That he himself is the only begotten Son of God , that Eminent Title belongs only to Christ ; for was not Adam called The Son of God ? Luke 3. 38. Was this then Blasphemy ? How Ignorant is this Mocker of Scripture Language ? 2. To the second , It was no Blasphemy to say , he was in the Paradice of God , no more than to say , he was a Man in Christ ; for so said Paul , yet no Blasphemer , 2 Cor , 12. 3. It is no Blasphemy to say , That Christ , or the Spirit of Christ , speaketh in or through his Ministers and Servants , for both he and they so testified . See Mat. 10. 19. 2 Cor. 13. 3. Mark 13. 11. Luke 12. 11. 4. 'T is a notorious Lie also , That G. F. pretended Miracles wrought in his own Name only ; for he ascribed them not to himself , but to the Power of God and his Motion , to whom he frequently prayed for the Sick and Diseased , upon which the Lord restored some ; to him therefore G. F. returned the Praise . See his Journ . p. 103 , 170 , 171 , 407. 5. The fifth Instance , as 't is worded , is disown'd , and we do not believe that G. F. ever said this of himself , but that he 's wrong'd herein . See what G. Keith saith to it contrary to F. B. Serious Appeal , contra Cotton , p. 60. viz. And whereas he would in the Conclusion fix it upon G. F. that he thought himself Equal with God , and that the Soul of Man was God , or a part of him : But seeing he bringeth not this from G. F. but from Faldo , a most Partial and Envious Adversary , it is not to be regarded ; and W. Penn hath sufficiently Vindicated G. F. and also G. F. hath cleared it in his Book , that he did Witness both the Son and the Holy Spirit revealed in him , who ( as he taketh notice by the Westminster Confessions Acknowledgment ) are Equal to God the Father . What says F. B. to this Vindication ? The rest of his Aspersions are Answered in the aforesaid Answers . As to the Account , and severe Characters F. B. gives in the Quakers Name against False Ministers and Ministry , p. 7 , 8. this he has scraped , and patch'd up , and printed , and reiterated over and over , in most of his Pamphlets against us , and will needs have it , that therein the Quakers reproach the Ministers of the Gospel , Christ's Ministers , p. 10. which we positively deny ; and 't is wholly without proof , and what he cannot prove , i. e. that we reproach Christ's Ministers , in Testifying against Covetous Persecuting Priests , who make a Trade of Preaching , and of the Scriptures , and such whom the Prophet Isaiah called greedy dumb Dogs , Isa. 56. 10 , 11. How will F. B. prove such Christ's Ministers , or Gospel Ministers ? We have but his bare say-so for it , but want proof for it , wherein he does but meerly impose upon us , to Vilifie us , and Ingratiate himself into Favour with that sort of the Clergy , who are most Guilty of the Sin of Covetousness and Persecution . The Mocker again repeats his false and empty Boast by way of Question , p. 12. viz. Why then will you not bring forth Sheba the Son of Bichri , the Man of Belial , G. W ? Is there not a wise Man amongst you ? His Cruel Mocking and Calumny in this unjust Comparison is denied ; no doubt his Malice is cruel and deadly enough to bring G. W. to Sheba's End , if he had Power , or could with any Colour or Pretence bring him under Sheba's Crime of Treason , or lifting up his Hand against the King , 2 Sam. 20. 21 , 22. For doth not this Mocker's Language , Comparison , and Treatment of this kind , bespeak his deadly Malice and Design ? He goes on with his empty boasting , viz. He tells you , That I wrong the Quakers in Charge , Citation , and Observation . ☞ Bring him forth according to his Proposal , and you will see it proved that I have not . As it was G. W's part to make good his Proposal or Charge against F. B. so he hath greatly endeavoured a Meeting with F. B. in London , before Witnesses , for the same purpose , but evaded by F. B. on other Terms than were in the said Proposal , as is before related : Now he has no cause to cry , Bring him forth according to his Proposal ! For that is abundantly proved in the Answers before-mentioned . Whereas F. B. further boasts , G. W. hath wrote to divers Clergy-men , to prevail with me to desist ; they give me his Letters , and wish me good Success , p. 12. The Clergy-men which G. W. wrote to , were William Smithies of Cripplegate , London ; and Isaac Archer of Milden-hall , in Suffolk ; which was to shew them some of his foul Abuses and Calumnies , to try them ( as having a particular Interest in him ) if they would stop him : Why did he not Print G. W's Letters to them , and to himself too also ? But thereby his Abuses , and sorry evasive Shifting , would have been the more apparent . Wherefore seeing he boasts of their wishing him good Success , these Two Questions are put to you the said William Smithies and Isaac Archer , viz. Q. 1. Do you really in your Consciences Approve of Francis Bugg's writing Books and Pamphlets against the People called Quakers , as he hath done ? Q. 2. Do you really Approve of his Books and Pamphlets writ by him against the said People , as namely of these in particular , under these Titles ? viz. 1. The Quakers Detected , Printed 1686. 2. New Rome Vnmask'd . 1692. 3. New Rome Arraigned ; which hath in it his Pretended Trial and Pillory ; Printed in 1693. 4. New Rome Arraigned ; Second Impression , without the Pillory . 1694. 5. His Impeachment , pretended in Behalf of the Commons of England . 1695. 6. A Second Summons . 7. His Sheet , stiled , Something in Answer to the Allegations of the Quakers , in their Printed Case presented to the House of Commons , December , 1695. But the Second Edition whereof , stiled , The Converted Quaker's Answer to the Allegations of his Old Brethren , the Quakers , &c. CHAP. VIII . An Appendix to the foregoing Controversies , in Certain Positions of the Sincere Belief , and Christian Doctrine of the People of God called Quakers , in Opposition to the Misrepresentations and Calumnies of F. Bugg ( and other Apostates ) in his pretended History of the Quakers , and other his and their Books and Pamphlets . 1. WE , the said People , are bound in Conscience and Duty by the Holy Spirit , and Light of Christ Jesus , only and humbly to Adore and Worship the only True and Living God , Creator of Heaven and Earth , the Sea , and all Creatures , and not to Adore or Worship any Mortal Man , or Creature , or any other God whatsoever . 2. To Believe and Confess the Holy Divine Three ( or Scripture Trinity ) that bear Record in Heaven , the Father , the Word , ( or Son ) and Holy Spirit , and that these Three are Essentially One in the Divine Being ▪ and Substance , One God , Blessed for Ever . 3. We are livingly taught and led by the Light and Spirit of Christ Jesus , the Living Word in our Hearts , ( and that according to Holy Scripture ) to Believe , Own and Confess the Incarnation of Jesus Christ , that is , his Real Coming in the Flesh without us ; even the same Jesus of Nazareth that was Conceived in the Virgin Mary by the Power of the Holy Ghost overshadowing her , and Born of her in Bethlehem of Judea , Mat. 2. 1. and that he was Crucified , and put to Death , as concerning the Flesh without the Gates of Jerusalem ; and we highly do Value and Esteem his Sufferings , Death , Precious Blood , and whole Sacrifice for Sinners ; together with his Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven and Glory ; and that he only was and is the Promised Messias , the Very Christ , the Only Begotten Son of the Living God : And as for his Divinity , That he is the True Light , Life , Power and Wisdom of God , and none other , according to plain Scripture Testimony . 4. The Divinity and Humanity ( i. e. Manhood ) of Christ Jesus , that as he is True God , and as he is most Glorious Man , our Mediator and Advocate , we livingly Believe , and have often sincerely Confessed in our Publick Testimonies and Writings . 5. That as sincere and fervent Prayers to God in the Name and Spirit of Christ Jesus , is the Duty of all True Believers and Christians professing him , for whatsoever they stand in need of , especially with respect to the Peace and Happiness of their Immortal Souls ; so all who are truly humbled under a Sence of their Sins , in order to true Repentance and Conversion , ought to crave Forgiveness in the Name , and for the Sake of Christ Jesus , which hath been our Practice , both Publick and Private , and God in Mercy hath accordingly answered us , who by his Grace in our Hearts , hath led many , both to confess and forsake Sin , that they might find Mercy in Christ Jesus . 6. Though we are bound in Conscience truly to Esteem and Magnifie the Divine Light , the Ingrafted Word , the Spirit and Power of Christ in us , as sufficient and able actually to save and deliver the Soul , from Sin , Death , and Condemnation , and thereby we Confess the Man Christ Jesus with respect to his entire Existence or Being , as without us , as well as we do own him Spiritually within us ; knowing that this Light , Life , and Spirit of Christ Jesus , Testifie of him , and certainly Guides the truly Obedient and Sincere Believers , in his Name and Power , Inwardly , Livingly , and Experimentally , to partake of the Real Benefits , Fruits , and Blessed Ends of his outward Suffering , Sacrifice , and Death for Mankind , to wit , their Repentance , Conversion from Sin , Effectual Reconciliation unto God , Eternal Salvation , and Compleat Redemption , which Christ Jesus has obtained for us , ( i. e. for all Mankind ) thro' his Mediation and Sufferings . 7. Our Really Believing and Confessing the Lord Jesus Christ , his Passion , Sufferings , Death , Atonement , and Reconciliation made for us , and his Resurrection , Ascension and Glorification , ( as without us ) according to Scripture , cannot be to Allegorize all these away , as if only transacted within us , ( as we have been unduly Accused ) for they were really done and transacted without us , by our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ , tho' our true Knowledge of the Power of his Resurrection , and Fellowship of his Sufferings , and our being Conformable to his Death , must be Experienced within us , if ever we Live or Reign with Him. 8. We sincerely Prefer ▪ and Esteem the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament , contain'd in that Excellent Book , commonly ▪ called the Bible , ( as most Eminently Confirmed by Divine Authority , and Faithful Witnesses ) before all other Books whatsoever extant in the World ; and yet our preferring the Holy Spirit ( from whence the Scripture came ) , before the Letter of the Scripture , is not to undervalue the Scripture , for the Spirit must needs have the Preference and Preheminence , as being the Author , and Original Cause , and Dictator of the Holy Scriptures , and Giver of Light and Life also , whereby truly to understand them , and to live accordingly . 9. As for Baptism and the Lord's Supper , they are Scripturally considered by us in their several Dispensations , both as in the Figure , and in the Substance , in the Type and Antitype , as the Outward or Literal were Typical or Figurative of the Inward and Spiritual , we confess and own , considered in their Places , and proper Dispensations ; but the Substance is more Excellent and Permanent than the Shadow ; as the Inward and Spiritual Grace is more Excellent than the Outward and Visible Signs ; and as Christ's Spiritual Baptism , which is the Saving Baptism , was Typified by John's . And to Eat , and Drink , or Sup with Christ in his Kingdom , of that Spiritual Meat and Drink which he gives for Life to the Soul , was Typified or Figured forth by his Outward Supper of the Passover , Bread and Cup ; for the Outward Element of Water cannot wash away Sin from the Soul , neither can the Outward Bread or Cup , give Life or Nourishment to the Soul. The Shadows flee away , but the Sum and Substance remain . 10. We sincerely ▪ Believe , and have often Confessed the Immortality of the Soul of Man , that was Created in God's Image , and the Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead , according as laid down in Holy Scripture , 1 Cor. 15th Chapter ; and of Eternal Judgment by Jesus Christ , as being Judge of the Living , and of the Dead , in the Great and Last Day of Judgment , at the Great Harvest , which is the End of the World , God having appointed a Day wherein he will Raise the Dead , both the Just and Unjust , and also Judge the World in Righteousness , by that ( Heavenly and most Glorious ) Man Christ Jesus whom he hath Ordained , Acts 17. 31. before whose Tribunal-Seat all must appear , to Receive their Final Judgment and Sentence , according to their Deeds done in the Body , whether they be Good or Evil. 11. That Christ's Gospel Ministry must be free , without forced Maintenance , filthy Lucre , or Covetousness . 12. That Magistracy , or Civil Government , is God's Ordinance ; the Good Ends thereof being for the Punishment of Evil Doers , and Praise of them that do Well . These Things we Sincerely Believe and Own ; but , to do F. Bugg Right , we find not that he has Charged us in the Tenth Particular , about the Resurrection , though some other Apostates have : And we know no other Doctrine or Principle , Preached , Maintained , or Received among , or by Us , since we were a People , contrary to these before-mentioned ; nor do we Own any contrary thereunto . Signed in Behalf of the said People , and to Clear my own Innocency in Particular ; By G. Whitehead . A Brief Advertisement to the Impartial Reader , upon Francis Bugg's last Book , falsly Stil'd , The Picture of Quakerism Drawn to the Life . THat it may appear , that as to Matter of Doctrine , and divers other things contain'd in the said Book , he has frequently Repeated and Impos'd the same Notorious Calumnies and Perversions , Unjustly upon the People called Quakers , ( with other Abuses ) which in the foregoing Treatise , and other of our Books in Answer to him , have been , and are fully Detected ; please to take a Brief Catalogue of some of his Notorious Calumnies , Lies and Abuses , with short Notes on them , as followeth . 1. In his Dedication to the Bishops of the Church of England , whom he flatters thus , viz. My Lords , I have not leisure to trace them ( i. e. the Quakers ) in all their By-paths from the very beginning of their Rise , and to shew , how they branched forth from the Seeds of the Ranters , Levellers , and other Latitudinarians . Observe pray , herein he Imposeth a Nototious and Scandalous Falshood upon the Bishops , it being well known , that the said People , call'd Quakers , as to their Rise , sprung and branched forth from and out of Religious Families of the Puritans , ( so called ) and of the most sincere among those called Independent , Anabaptist and Presbyterian Churches and Families , and others , and not from the Seeds of Ranters , as he has grosly defamed them , thereby Abusing both Bishops , and other Readers . 2. Their Contempt of the Scripture , as Beastly Wares , p. 2. Calling them Beastly Ware , p. 42. That the Quakers have Condemn'd the Holy Scriptures , p. 48. That our Teachers tell us , that the Scriptures are Dust , Death , Beastly Ware , &c. p. 61. That their Chief Work in their Meetings , as well as Writings , was to lower the Power of the Magistrates , Reproach the Ministers , &c. and the Bible , Beastly Ware , &c. p. 97. He further saith , I know , if I had recommended the Scriptures , ye would have rejected them , as Serpents Meat , Beastly Ware , your frequent Epithets , p. 121. And Beastly Ware again , p. 125. Hist. Obs. Thus he still shamefully Abuses the Readers , Bishops , and others , by these most gross repeated Blasphemous Calumnies , manifestly Detected both in the foregoing Expostulation , and other Answers to him . So that he shamefully pleases himself with frequent Repetition of his old , stinking , loathsom Stuff to defame the Quakers . 3. That possibly our Women learn'd of my self ( i. e. of G. W. ) to call the Scriptures Dust , Death , Beastly Ware , &c. p. 122. Obs. My Conscience bears me Witness , he hath suggested a horrid Calumny against me herein , having had a high and reverend Esteem for the Holy Scriptures , from my Youth upwards . 4. That they ( i. e. the Quakers ) sprung out of the Dregs of the People , as Ranters , &c. Obs. Both which are Abusive Aspersions , before Detected . Query , Didst thou F.B. spring out of the Dregs of the People , as Ranters , when first thou turnedst Quaker ? For shame , for shame leave off such sordid Stuff . 5. That the Quakers deny Christ , and that their Doctrine teacheth to deny him to be Christ , who was Born of the Virgin , and their Contempt of Jesus of Nazareth , ( Contents , and p. 25 , and 37. Obs. We have often clear'd our selves of this repeated Calumny , abhorring the Blasphemy thereof . 6. That they deny Christ to be in Heaven above , at God's Right Hand , p. 26. Obs. This Perversion has been often Detected : And our Confessing Christ IN us , by his Spirit , Light and Grace , is no Proof thereof . 7. That they ( i. e. the Quakers ) Encourage each other to wait in the feeling of the Spirit of a Deceas'd Brother , and call it , the Comforter ; [ therein comparing them to the Papists ] p. 27. Observe his Dulness and Stupidity in this Lying Perversion : He distinguishes not between the Saints Comforter , or Spirit of Truth in a Deceas'd Brother , and his own Spirit ; i. e. between the Spirit of God , and the Spirit of a Man. 8. That it 's very plain , that they ( i. e. the Quakers ) put the North of England for the T●wn of Bethlehem , and the Branch , the Star , the Sun of Righteousness , they most Wretchedly and Blasphemously attribute to G. Fox , p. 52. And that the Quakers did BELIEVE , the North of England was the Town of Bethlehem , &c. p. 53. That the Quakers give Testimony to G. Fox , as the Branch , &c. p. 57 , 58. Obs. What an Abominable Perversion this Story is , though frequently repeated by him , and detected by us , as hath been made Evident . His Stageing us in his Mock-Tryal , Arraignment and Pillory , for Solemnly Denying the same , is not sufficient Abuse for us ; but against all Truth and plain Demonstration , he insolently insists upon the same to defame us , like one hardened in his Iniquity , and Injurious Work of Darkness and Envy . 9. That Christ , that was Born in the City of David , the Quakers plainly say , This is not the Christ , p. 58. [ For which he quotes the Christian Quaker , and his Divine Test. p. 98. ] Obs. I have Examin'd the Page 98. in both the first and second part of our said Book , Christian Quaker , quoted by F. Bugg here , in neither whereof do I find the Quakers saying , That this is not the Christ that was Born in the City of David ; but his Divinity Asserted , and his Pre-existence before that Outward Appearance or Coming of Christ in the Flesh , that he was the Divine Word , the Seed , the Light , the Life , &c. before he took upon him that Body prepar'd for him . See now how plainly and perversly F. B. has Abused the Quakers in this Matter . 10. He scornfully repeats a known Vntruth against me in these words , Dear George , to save thy Bacon , can now do it , [ i. e. Swear ] and that an Oath was read to G. W. in open Court , April 9. 1695. and the Book being put to his Mouth , he submitted to it without gainsaying . p. 93. Obs. In good Conscience , I deny this Story again ; and many can Witness the Contrary , as to what Testimony I bore in Court. Whoever was F. B's Informer , I shall not be much Inquisitive , I know my own Innocency , and can demonstrate it , if it were not to an Enemy , that labours to Asperse me . 11. That their Teachers in their Travels to and fro , to seduce the People not only from the Christian Religion , but from their Allegiance to their Governours , p. 101. Obs. Which is a Malicious Lying Story , unjustly designed to render us Obnoxious . 12. He tells a false Story concerning a Bishop and Mr. Whitehead , that the Bishop said , they must insert a Clause for the Payment of Tythes , &c. meaning in the Bill for our Relief in the Case of Oaths . Upon which F. B. falsly Drols , But O Poor George , methinks I see him how he rubb'd his Elbow , and scratched his Head , and look'd up as demurely as a Puritan , &c. Hist. p. 117 , 118. Obs. This whole Story , with the subsequent Passages depending upon it , is wholly false ; for the Clause to Recover Tythes , was past in the House of Commons before it came up to the House of Lords . I have not time now to go through his Repeated Calumnies , Lyes , and Abuses both in his Monstrous deformed Picture ( as I may call it ) of Quakerism ; and his pretended Brief History thereof , for they are numerous . One thing more I may observe , how F. B. presumes to prescribe and dictate to the Government , from the Example of the FRENCH KING , towards the French Protestants , in the Year 1644. which he takes out of John Quick's History . 1. As to his Permitting the Protestant Ministry to hold a National Synod , and ordering them a Commissioner to assist and be present with them in their Synod . He cites the Writ Signed LEWIS , and the Commissioner's Speech , and Synod's Answer . P. 97 , 98 , 99 , 100 , 101 , 102. From whence F. B. takes upon him to prescribe and dictate to the present King and Government here , viz. That if the Government think good to bestow that favour of them ( as to have Anniversary Synods ) it would be very proper , that there should be a Commissioner or two , ordered by His Majesty to Reside in their Counsel . And about 13 Precepts of F. B's to the Government to Restrain and Limit our Anniversary Meeting , P. 122. to P. 126. Whence ' ti observable , how he strives and insinuates to perswade our Protestant Government , to imitate the French King's Example herein . As if the King and Government here were as much fearful and jealous of his peaceable Protestant Subjects , as the French King was of the Protestants in France ; and what Reputation or Honour has he in thus prescribing and dictating shewn to a Protestant Government in England , to induce them to learn of a French King , and to imitate him in their Conduct ? 2. He also dictates , how to call us in Question before Authority for our Books , &c. P. 121. O busie Dictator ! will nothing serve him but Persecution ( which he does but sorrily define ) or some Popish Limitations or Inquisitions over us , to introduce a new Persecution ? Ah! poor Francis ! my Soul pities thee , tho' I have been plain with thee , may'st thou yet be humbled unto Repentance before thou dyest ; for thy great Enmity , thy manifold repeated Calumnies , notorious Perversions , and Persecuting Invectives ! And you his Ministers , Approvers , and Congratulators , ( Expostulated with ) J. A. W. S. &c. what think you of your Convert F. B. his Work ? Will it quit the Cost and Pains , and be for your Reputation , or Church's Service , to encourage him thus to proceed in Scribling , and making Books , stuff'd with Repetitions of his old , over-worn , thread-bare stuff , made up mostly of the same reiterated , envious , and scornful Aspersions , and Perversions , frequently Refuted , without any direct or rational Reply from him ; but instead thereof silly Histories of the same repeated Calumnies , &c. imposed upon the World by your Convert F. B. Alas ! poor Man ! what a Whirl-pool is he fallen into ? Do you think he spends his Time or Estate well in such invidious fruitless Work ? Or do you help him in the Charge ? Pray consider of it , if you please . I have observ'd , he is very Industrious for you and your Interest , as he may think . I have in one Sheet Answer'd a Book of his , ( as I may ) and with that set his Windmil going again , to bring forth another Book , of some Bulk and Charge . But if he still thinks his said Picture of Quakerism is drawn to the Life , it should then be his Master-Piece , and save him more Labour and Charge of Limning against us . But if he can draw Pictures no better than this , or his Picture of Quakers in the Pillory , he had better give over the Trade , and Study to be Quiet , that he may Live and Die the more Quietly . London , the 20th . of the 3d. Month , 1697. FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65888-e1780 Some Reasons for this Advertisement to W. Smithies . * New Rome Vnmask'd . Epistle to Ber. p. 2. * New Rome Arraigned Epistle to Ber. p. 12. New Rome Vnmask'd . Remark . on Creed , 6. & p. 78. * Which is proved notoriously False in our Answers in Print . * Converted Quakers , p. 6.7 . * New Rome Arraeigned , Epistle to Ber. p. 12 , 13. * New Rome Vnmask'd . p. 51. * Converted Quaker , p. 8. New Rome Vnmask'd , p. 58. Converted Quaker , p. 8. New Rome Arrained , p. 11 , 15 , 18 , 47 * Canes Timidi vehementius Latrant . Notes for div A65888-e3670 Added and Contemning his Magistrates . ☜ Quakers Viudication , p. 4. Notes for div A65888-e5340 ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ Notes for div A65888-e15510 ☞ Notes for div A65888-e19630 * P. 26. Serious Appeal . 
A65863	----	The divinity of Christ and unity of the three that bear record in heaven with the blessed end and effects of Christ's appearance, coming in the flesh, suffering and sacrifice for sinners, confessed and vindicated, by his followers, called Quakers : and the principal matters in controversie, between them, and their present opposers (as Presbyterians, Independants, &c.) considered and resolved, according to the scriptures of truth, and more particularly to remove the aspersions ... cast upon the ... Quakers ... in several books, written by Tho. Vincent, Will. Madox, their railing book, stil'd The foundation, &c, Tho. Danson, his Synopsis, John Owen, his Declaration / which are here examin'd and compared by G.W. ... ; as also, a short review of several passages of Edward Stillingfleet's ... in his discourse of the sufferings of Christ's and sermon preached before the King, wherein he flatly contradicts the said opposers. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1669 Approx. 483 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 101 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65863 Wing W1925 ESTC R19836 12290642 ocm 12290642 58882 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65863) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58882) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:16) The divinity of Christ and unity of the three that bear record in heaven with the blessed end and effects of Christ's appearance, coming in the flesh, suffering and sacrifice for sinners, confessed and vindicated, by his followers, called Quakers : and the principal matters in controversie, between them, and their present opposers (as Presbyterians, Independants, &c.) considered and resolved, according to the scriptures of truth, and more particularly to remove the aspersions ... cast upon the ... Quakers ... in several books, written by Tho. Vincent, Will. Madox, their railing book, stil'd The foundation, &c, Tho. Danson, his Synopsis, John Owen, his Declaration / which are here examin'd and compared by G.W. ... ; as also, a short review of several passages of Edward Stillingfleet's ... in his discourse of the sufferings of Christ's and sermon preached before the King, wherein he flatly contradicts the said opposers. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [28], 71, 72, [4], 73-96 p. [s.n.], London : 1669. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. "An answer to Thomas Danson's Synopsis of Quakerism ..." begins new paging. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Jesus Christ -- Divinity. Madox, William. Danson, Thomas, ca. 1624-1694. Stillingfleet, Edward, 1635-1699. Owen, John, 1616-1683. Vincent, Thomas, 1634-1678. Society of Friends -- Doctrines. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-01 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-02 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-02 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Divinity of Christ , AND Unity of the Three that bear Record in Heaven . WITH The blessed End and Effects of Christ's Appearance , coming in the Flesh , Suffering and Sacrifice for Sinners , confessed and vindicated , By his followers , called Quakers . And the principal matters in Controversie , between Them , and their present Opposers ( as Presbyterians , Independants , &c. ) Considered and Resolved , according to the Scriptures of Truth . And more particularly to Remove the Aspersions , Slanders , and Blasphemies cast upon the People , called QUAKERS , and their Principles , in several Books , Written By Tho. Vincent Will. Madox their railing Book , stil'd , The Foundation , &c. Tho. Danson , his Synopsis , John Owen , his Declaration , Which are here Examin'd and Compared by G. W. And their Mistakes , Errors , and Contradictions , both to themselves and each other , made manifest . As also , A short Review of several Passages of Edward Stillingfleet's ( D.D. and Chaplin in Ordinary ( so called ) to his Majesty ) in his Discourse of the Sufferings of Christ ; And Sermon preached before the KING ; wherein he flatly Contradicts the said Opposers . Mark 14.56 . For many bare false witness against him , but their witness agreed not together . Coll. 2.8 . Beware lest any man spoyl you through Philosophy and vain deceipt . 1 Tim. 6.3 , 4 , 5 , 20. If any man consenteth not to the wholsome words of our Lord Jesus Christ , &c. he is puft up , or proud , &c. Acts 24.14 . After the way which they call Heresie , do I Worship the God of my Fathers , believing all things which are written in the Law and the Prophets , &c. London , Printed in the Year . 1669. An Epistle to the Presbyterians and Independants , and their Rough Hearers , who profess the Scriptures to be their Rule , whereby they are examined and tryed , and their wayes discovered . 1 st . WHether do the Scriptures speak of Three Persons in the God-head , according to your own Rule , in these express words ; let us see where it is written ? Come do not shuffle , for we are resolved that the Scriptures shall buffet you about , and that you shall be whipped about with the Rule . 2 dly . Where doth the Scripture speak of Christ's Righteousness imputed unto Unrighteous men , who live in their sins ; and that in their Unrighteousness and Sins they shall live and die ? seeing that Faith purifies the heart from unrighteousness ; And he that believes passes from Death to Life , and so from Sin that brought Death . And he that receives Christ , receives Righteousness it self by Faith in him , the Lord , the Righteousness , this is Scripture . 3 dly . And where doth the Scripture say , That a man shall not be made free from sin ? and that it is not attainable in this Life ? Let us see where ever Christ , or the Prophets , or Apostles , preached such Doctrine ? Give us plain Scripture , without adding or diminishing , for Christ's , bids men be perfect ; and the Apostle spoke Wisdom among them that were perfect . 4 thly . You that deny Perfection , do ye not deny the One Offering , Christ Jesus , who hath perfected for ever them that are Sanctified ? Do you not deny the Blood of Christ Jesus , in trampling it under your feet , and the Blood of the new Covenant ; which Blood of Christ cleanseth from all sin ; and whose garments are made white by the Blood of the Lamb ; and he throughly purges his floor with his Fan , and gathers his Wheat into his Garner . 5 thly . And did Christ make Satisfaction for the sins of men , that they should live and die in their sins ? for he came to save his People from their sins ; and so he Died for them , that they should not live to them , but to God through him . 6 thly . Where do the Scripture speak of a Trinity of distinct Persons , from Genesis to the Revelation ? give us plain Scripture for it , without shuffling , adding or diminishing , you that talk so much of Scripture to be your Rule ; for the Father , Word , and Spirit , this is owned according to Scripture , and they agree in One. And we charge you to give us a plain Scripture that saith there are three separate Persons ; let us see Scripture , we will have Scripture for it , or otherwise be silent . 7 thly . And where do the Scriptures say , That Christ the Light of the World ( which enlighteneth every one that cometh into the World ) is not sufficient to guide men to Salvation ? Christ saith , Believe in the Light , that you may become Children of the Light , and Children of the Day ; and who walk in the Light , there is no occasion of stumbling ; And this is the Condemnation that Light is come into the World , and men love Darkness rather than Light , because their deeds be evil ; And is not the Light sufficient , that lets a man see whether his deeds be wrought in God , read John 3. 8 thly . Where doth the Scripture say , from Genesis to the Revelation , That the true Faith of God is without Works ? Hath not Faith works that purifies the heart ? Doth it not give Victory ? Will you deny the Works of Faith , because the Works of the Law was denyed by the Apostle ? 9 thly . Where doth the Scripture say , That it self is the Word of God ? Do you not belye the Rule here ? For , doth not the Scripture say , That Christ is the Word ? and the Scriptures are Words : read Exodus 20 , and Revelation 22. He that adds to these Words , and takes from these Words , the Plagues of God are added to him . So see whether you are not adders to these Words , as it is made appear before ? And Christ saith , My words that I speak unto you , they are Spirit and Life , &c. And in many places of Scripture God saith , My Words : Doth not Scripture signifie Writing ? For all your high Schollar-ship , you may go to the English School-Master , and it will tell you what it signifies ; What is all the writing in Peoples hearts ? Is Paper and Ink in Peoples hearts ? Come , do not cheat People , but confess truth ; you affirm Scripture to be the Rule , but are found contrary to the Rule . But , what is all the Scripture the Rule , from Genesis to the Revelations , to walk by and practice ? Or , what part of Scripture is the Rule ? are Herods words , Pharoahs words , Nebuchadnezars words , Judas words , the Jewes words , Jobs Friends words , the Devils words , the Offerings and the Sacrifices ? &c. Come , what part of Scripture is your Rule ? Distinguish : For you say the Scripture is your Rule ? Is it all a Rule for practice ? Must we obey every tittle of it ? for we own the Scriptures more then you do , which Holy Men of God gave forth , Christ Jesus , and the Apostles and Prophets ; and they made a distinction , but you make none : Do not go with your Malice and envious minds , to possess the People , and say , That we dis-esteem the Scriptures , for we esteem Scripture more than you do , that have kept People under your Teaching , that they might be paying of you , and so make a Trade of them . The Scriptures speaks plentifully concerning Christ being the Word of God : God is the Word , is not this Scripture ? And in the Beginning was the Word , and all things were made by the Word : and , were all things made by the Scriptures ? — And we say the Scriptures are a better Rule than your Directory ; for if the Scriptures be the Rule , why do you set up a Directory to be your Rule ? What! will you bore out Peoples eyes , that they shall not see how you dissemble : And why did you make a Church Faith at Savoy in eleaven dayes time , if the Scriptures be your Rule ? But it seems the Scriptures are not a sufficient Rule for you ; but your Directory and your Church Faith , it seems , is your Rule ; Scriptures are not sufficient to be your Rule . And , why do you deny Common Prayer , and set up a Directory and a Church Faith of your own making ? And there , in your Directory , do you not set up your Imaginations and Meanings above Scriptures ? Come , People will not sell their Wits , Reason , and Understanding : Come , People , you all know that when you come to discourse with these Presbyterians or Independants about Scriptures , who say it is their Rule , they will presently fall , and give it a meaning , and say it is their Opinion and Judgement , and conceive it to be so . — And so then the Presbyterians and Independants Meanings , and Opinions , and Thinkings , and Conceivings , and Imaginations , and Judgements ; this must be the Rule , and not the Scripture : then you must not take it as the Scriptures speake The Quakers will take it Literally , cry they , and these have been the Presbyterian , and Independant tricks , this long time . — What think you , do we not know your tricks ? And so you would make People believe what an Esteem you have of Scriptures ; when it is nothing but Meanings , and old Directory , and Church Faith ! Do you think we have forgot your old Malice and Envie , when you haled above three thousand of us to Prison in the other Powers dayes , and persecuted to Death about thirty three , which stands upon Record to this day , whose Blood you have drunk , and mingled with your Sacrifice , and whose innocent Blood lies upon your heads ; Was the Scripture your Rule to do thus ? Nay , Christ bids you love Enemies , let Scripture be your Rule ! Have you not been like Judas , and the Persecuting Jewes , and the Heathen , that Persecuted the true Christians ? You have banished the Rule which is to love Enemies , and love one another : And Christ saith , Freely ye have received , freely give : But you will not give freely , for you have not received freely ; You will have the Club and the Bagg ; For , what havock have you made of them that could not put into your mouths ! what Imprisoning and spoyling of Goods did you make when you had Power ! this is not Gospel ; this is besides the Rule : You are worse than the outward Jewes , for where did they ever take trebble damages of them that did not hire them ? It was time for the Lord to bring you down , who are judged by your own Rule . 10 thly . And why do you belye the Quakers , with saying , That your good Works ( that is of self ) are the Meritorious Cause of Justification . Answ. Christ Works all our Works in us , and for us , who is our Justifier ; S. F. hath sufficiently cleared this matter , and answered you . 11 thly . And where doth the Scripture say , The Works of Faith , and the Works of Grace , and the Fruits of the Spirit , are sinful ? 12 thly . And where do the Scriptures hold forth the Sprinkling of Infants , and call it an Ordinance ; and tell of a Sacrament , and call it an Ordinance . Let us see Scripture for these things , and that the Apostles practised them as you do ; and whether your practises were according to theirs ? And have you the same Power and Spirit as they had that gave forth Scriptures ? Answer plainly in plain words of Scripture , that you do not err from the Words and Rule which you say is your Rule . — But do you not remember , you Presbyterians and Independants , what havock you made of the Goods of the People of God , whom in scorn you called Quakers , because they would not pay for the Bread and Wine you eat and drunk ; you drunk it your selves , and eat it your selves , and made them Pay for it ; did the Apostles ever do so , to spoyl any ones Goods , because they would not pay for their Bread and Wine they eat and drunk ? Come , let us see your Scripture , your Rule , which you boast so much of for these things , who make People believe it is your Rule ; let us see a Rule for this : But you grumble , because you have not Power to fall upon the Quakers , to make them pay for your Bread and Wine you eate and drink , as you have done formerly ; and then when you have done , boast that Scripture is your Rule , and you say this is Gospel , this is Glad Tydings , is it ? and then you spoyl their Goods for your Bread and Wine . Where were you in the time of Persecution ? we could see but few of you then ; for then you slunk into Holes and Corners , & had out your Scouts ; and now when you have a little Liberty , what a bawling you make against Quakers ? You are a little hungry bitten , because you have not Tythes , and Easter Reckonings , and Midsummer Dues , and Money of the Quakers for your Bread and Wine ; will you avenge your self of the Quakers ? 13 thly . And do you not say , That your Sanctification , and Justification , and your Prayers , and Graces , and Faith , all are imperfect ? ( as manifest in you ) Is not Christ Justification , and Sanctification ? And must you not Pray in the Spirit of God ? And is it not perfect ? What darkness is this ! Must not Christ be in you ? And , is not he in you ? and Faith in you ? and the Spirit of God in you to Pray by ? And so if it be imperfect , then it is your own Praying , and your own Justitication , and Sanctification , and Faith , and Application ; it 's of your own making , and not Christ's ; for Christ is perfect , who Sanctifies and Justifies , and his Spirit is perfect . Priest Danson , Presbyterian , how now ! Dost thou not bring Cardinal Pool , and Aquinas , and Aristotle , to prove thy Assertions , and thy Imaginations ? it seems Scripture is not sufficient : Thou wouldst make People believe , that the Presbyterians were against the Papists and Heathen both ; but now they must be the Presbyterians Patrons , and yet could make People believe that the Scriptures were their Rule ; but this must be their Rule , the Papists and the Heathen : Read Danson's Synopsis of his Quakerism , what a bundle of Lyes he hath drawn up together ; he may take them home to himself . 14 thly . And why do you Presbyterians cry against the Quakers Light , which is Christ , as being but an Heathenish light ? and now to oppose them , you are fain to run to the Heathen , and to the Papists , to find Arguments ; and then tell People the Scripture is your Rule ( O Deceipt ! ) 15 thly . Where doth the Scripture speak of an Humane Nature of Christ in Heaven ? Is not Christ and his Body Glorified , and he the Lord from Heaven ; for is not Christ's Nature Divine , and his Soul Divine , which comes out from God ? And where is his Soul called Humane ? Come to the Accidence again , thou that professes thy self to be a great Schollar , tell us what Humane signifies . 16 thly . Thou speaks of Three Persons ; and a man is a Person ; What doest thou infer from this ? Is God a Man ? No , he is a Spirit , I tell thee the Scripture sayes so : Is the Holy Ghost a Man ? It is call'd the Holy Spirit ; and Christ was a man , the man Christ Jesus . — So it seems the Presbyterians can say little of himself , but he hath learned something of the Learned Wotton , in pag. the second , but he doth not tell us what he is , whether a Papist or an Heathen . 17 thly . Thou sayest the Soul is part of man's Nature ; Where doth the Scripture , thy Rule , say so ? For the Scripture saith , God breathed into man the breath of Life , and man became a Living Soul. 18 thly . Thou sayest the word Person cannot properly be attributed to the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost : Why doth the Presbyterians rage so against the Quakers ? It seems you cannot agree among your selves ; because the Quakers speak as the Scriptures do , Father , Son , and Holy Spirit ; and say the Scripture doth not speak of Three Persons , as thou thy self in thy third page sayes the word Person cannot properly be attributed to the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost : See how this man is in Confusion , who saith sometimes there are Three separate Persons ; and another while , the word Person cannot properly be attributed to the Father , Son , and Holy Chost : But we do charge Danson , and his Brethren , to make this good by Scripture in plain words ; — For the Scripture saith , The Father is in the Son , and the Son is in the Father , and the Holy Ghost proceeds from them . — So how can you say they are separated , when they are one in another ? but it shews you have little knowledge of God , or Scriptures either . 19 thly . The Priest saith concerning that distinction in the God-head , it cannot be apprehended by us ; — and yet he will call them Three separated Persons , and a Trinity ; and gives them Names which are not apprehended by you ; you might have been silent then in what you did not apprehend : And yet you will lay Principles down concerning God , the Son , and Spirit , which you do not apprehend your selves , but presume above what is written , and so go contrary to your Rule . — Should you not call the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit , as the Holy Men did call them in the Scriptures ? 20 thly . In the 4th page thou sayest , The Father , the Son , and the Spirit , are said to be Three , yet but one God ; and yet thou sayest we do not know what to call those Three , but Three Persons ; and there is that ascribed to them ( thou sayest ) Properties , which agree not simply . Answ. The Father , Son , and Spirit agree ; but that which you do ascribe , do not agree with Scripture with them , nor among your selves about them . — And if you do not know what to call the Father , Son , and Spirit , but Three Persons , you might have holden your Tongues then , till you did know , who calls them and gives them Names contrary to Scriptures , and the Holy Men of God , who called them Father , Son , and Spitit , who were wiser Men then any of you . 21 thly . And again , in thy 4th page thou sayest Thre Subsistents ( that is Persons , though not strictly , yet proportionably , or Anologically so called ) in the God-head . People ! Did you ever hear such a Mash ? We do charge this Presbyterian to make these words good by plain Scripture , viz. Three Subsistents , Three Persons , and Analogically ; Is this a Scripture word People ? Where did the Apostles use any such dark words ? Hadst thou not this word from the Heathen ? Well , Mark Reader , he sayes there are Three Persons , and Three Subsistents in the God-head ; and hath not he made Four here ? If there be Three in the God-head he hath made Four ; for , what is the God-head ? God is One , and he hath made Three besides ; see pag. 4. of his Book . — And so , in the Title of his Book , he speaks of Three Persons in the God-head ; Are there not Four then ? And in the said 4th page , he sayes , he thinks he hath answered all the Arguments of the Antitrinitarians ; he doth but think so , it seems . Answ. The Scripture saith , 1 Joh. 5.7 . That there are Three that bear Record in Heaven , the Father , the Word , and the Holy Ghost ; and these three are one . But he doth not say that they are separated nor distinct , neither doth call them Persons . — And thus we call them , as the Scriptures call them , Father , Word , and Holy Ghost ; and the Apostle doth not say they are separate , nor distinct ; and we are not to presume above what is written . — We charge you , Presbyterians , to give us printed Scriptures for these following words ; and let us see in what Chapter and Verse they are printed ; Come to the Rule , and do not presume above what is written : Concreet , Abstract , Predicate , the Relative , Co-eternity , Co-essentiallity , Co-equallity , Communication of Properties , Co-essentiallities , Modallities , Suppossitallities , Incommunicable Subsistances , and Hypostatical Unions . — Come , are these words spoken in the Rule , the Scriptures ? let us see the Chapter and Verse , that we may see where such terms are spoken of the Father , Word , and Spirit , which are one ; Had you not them rather from your old Logical and Philosophical Books ? And have not they been your Rule for such words , and not the Scriptures , which the Holy men of God spoke forth . Thou sayest in the 12th page of thy Book , That we must not take Man here for a Person , but a Nature , as you do God , &c. And yet before , thou saidst , That Man was a Person ; and so it is the Nature that is a Person , and not the Man , nor God : but thou hast not defined to us what a Person is , nor what the word Person signifies , for all thy Schollar-ship . — And thou sayest , Ye mean no more then the Name Man to be attributed to Peter , James , and John ; because the same human Nature specifically agrees unto them ; and so is the Name God attributed to each Person , because the same Divine Nature subsists in each of them . Answ. This is a dark thing , to whom will you liken me , saith God ? [ like Peter , James , and John , or like unto some corrupt person ] The Saints were partakers of the Divine Nature ; What do you say of them therefore ; And where do the Scriptures speak that the Nature of God is so simple , &c. where learned you this word ? And where doth the Scripture use these words Accidents and Integrals of the God-head ? and this is your Conceptions and Notions of God , and the Word , and the Spirit , as it 's said in the 13th page of Danson's Book ; It 's a Conception and Notion indeed : — For you say in the same 13th page , The Conception or Notion that we have of the Father , &c. so it 's but a Notion and Conception , it seems , that you have of the Father ; — and then sayes ( suppose ) as a subsistent , or Person , &c. But which of these terms it is , this Notionist hath not declared to us in his 13th page ; — And this Notionist goes on in the said 13th page , and sayes , Nor can we say that the Notion of the Father , as one Person in the God-head , includes the Son ; nor the Notion of the Son , as one Person in the God-head , includes the Father . Reader , Didst thou ever hear the like ! This is but a Notion of the Father , and a Notion of the Son indeed . — And are these Presbyterian Priests like to interpret Scripture with their Notions , Conceptions , and Suppositions ; no , no. No one knows the Father but the Son , and he to whom the Son reveals him ; — Nor none knows the Son but the Father ; and to know God , and Jesus Christ , is Life Eternal ; and none can call him Lord but by the Holy Ghost . — And so this Knowledge is beyond all your false Conceptions , Suppositions , and Notions ; And if the Holy Ghost , the Saints bodies be the Temple of it , which Holy Ghost leads them into all Truth : And if the Holy Ghost be a Person , then have not the Saints a Person in their bodies ? And why did not the Apostle say , That their bodies were the Temples of a Person , according to your Doctrine and Rule , — the Holy Ghost is a Spirit , — and so let us see that Scripture which gives the Holy Ghost the Name of a Person . And he speaks again in his 14th page of Three distinct Persons are one with the God-head ; — Now Reader , is not here Four ? to wit , Three Persons and the God-head ; But Reader , we charge him to give us Chapter and Verse for this Doctrine , for we must order him with the Rule . And then he tells us of a Notion of the Father and including the Son , it 's but his own Notion ; — for if he had known him he would have spoken in a form of sound words , whereby he might not have been reproved . And again , the Presbyterian sayes , the Three Persons are distinct , and the Rule is to be understood that they are One among themselves only in respect of that , wherein they agree not simply . Answ. Reader take notice , he sayes , The Father , and Son , and Holy Ghost , which he calls Three Persons , doth not agree simply ; Is not this contrary to Scripture ? What agreement is this which is not simply ? What! separate distinct Persons , not agreeing simply ! — Come , what is this agreement then , if it be not an agreeing simply ? Tell us what it is by Chapter and Verse ; thou sayes the Scripture is the Rule ? Where doth the Scripture say , That the Father , Son , and Spirit doth not agree simply ? — Didst thou not say , That God was so simple , that he admitted of no parts ; what agreement is this if it be not simple ? What is it then ? tell us . Dost thou not abuse the Father , Son , and Spirit , and Scriptures ? clear thy self ; and make this good , That the Father , Son , and Spirit doth not agree simply ; if not simply , then tell us how ; and give Chapter and Verse for it out of the Scriptures , or else acknowledge thy self to be of a Sandy Foundation . Seeing thou sayst , A Man is a Person , and God is a Person ; and the Scripture saith God is a Spirit , and Christ was conceived by the Holy Ghost , the begotten of the Father . Was Christ the Image of the Father , as he was of the Generation of Abraham , or David , or Adam ? or according to the Spirit ? — Whether of these was he the express Image of his Father's substance , because thou calls the Father a Person ; — And the Scripture sayeth , He suffered according to the Flesh , — which he did not die as he was God ; and the Scripture calls him Son of Man , and Son of God , and he being the express Image of his Fathers substance ; see the Old Translations . And dost thou not , in thy 16th page of thy Synopsis , bring the Greek Philosophers to prove the Persons ? Yes : How now Presbyterian Priest , thou hast run beside thy own Directory and Scripture both , but the Greek Philosophers must be thy Rule , and Leader ; surely People will not alwayes have their Eyes blinded by you , Christ is come to open them . And in the 17th page of his Book , the Presbyterian saith , that Hypostasis must be rendred Person , or Subsistent , or some word to that Effect , he sayes . — So People see it must be some word , but what it must be he knows not ; and so in this manner they are giving Names to Christ and God , besides the Rule of Scripture ; we charge thee shew us a Verse in Scripture that speak such Language , and where one word may be put for another by Metalepsis ? and so leave People in Doubts and Questions ; you are going beside your Scripture and Rule , that at last People shall not know what to call God and Christ. — So the Presbyterians and Independants must give us Scripture ; For we will not be satisfied with your Notions , and Whymsies , and false Conceptions , which you have from Aristotle , and the Greek Philosophers , and the Papists , and Cardinals ; We do command you to give us Scripture , Chapter , and Verse , Presbyterians and Independants , for these things plainly , — seeing you are of late perked up in a way of scolding against us ( not like the Holy Men of God , Patient and Meek , and apt to Teach ) as you may see in the latter end of your Brother Vincent's Book ; Is that the Language of a Christian ? No ; He hath declared what spirit you are of , Rabshecha's spirit , railing , and speaking evil of the way of Truth ; he thinks to overcome by Railing , and complaining , not by Love ; nay , the Lamb must have the victory . Whether or no was Christ's Blood shed for All men , and by it Justifies All men , they living in their sins , and not believing in it ; are they saved by their saying they believe in the Blood , and not believing in the Light ( which Christ Commands ) and become Children of the Light ; and they say they believe , and yet not pass from Death to Life , and from sin that brings Death ? And whether or no any are cleansed from all sin by the Blood of Christ , but such as walk in the Light of Christ , as in 1 Joh. 1. And so whether or no are those Justified who believe not in the Light of Christ , nor passes from Death to Life , nor walks not in the Light , whether or no are those Justified by Christ's Blood , and have not the Testimony of Justification in them , as in the accompt to God Christ's Blood was shed for All men ; but for a man to come to partake of this Justification , is it not to feel the Blood sprinkling the Heart and Conscience ? — For the outward Jewes in the Figure , had Blood sprinkled upon them in the outward Offerings ; — Come answer us by Scripture ? Do not daub up People with untempered Mortar ; do you know the Mortar that is tempered ? Whether or no was Christ an Offering for the sins of the whole World , and died for the sins of the whole World ? Whether or no all the sinners and ungodly of the whole World are Justified by his Death , and by his offering up once for all ? answer in plain words . And whether or no you will make a Sect , that he died for some ungodly and some sinners only ; for the sons of Adam were the sinners and ungodly : But he that believes , is born of God , and they receive Christ , and he gives them Power to become the sons of God , and they know he died for them , and have the Testimony of it , and have the Benefit of his Death and Resurrection . And what was the Light that shined in the Darkness , and the Darkness comprehended it not ? What was the Spirit that the Wicked grieved , vexed , and quenched ? Where is it ? and what is the Spirit of Truth that reproves the World of sin ? Where is it that leads the Saints into all Truth ? Come , we must have plain Scripture for these things . What is the Law that God will write in the Heart , and put in the Mind , that all shall know Him from the greatest to the least , that they shall not every one teach his Brother ; and shall all know the Lord ? What is that Light that shines in the Heart , to give the Knowledge of the Glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus ? 2 Cor. 4. What is the Word of God in the Heart the Apostle Preached , and the People was to obey it , and do it ? And what was that Rule that Adam had , and all the Holy Men in the Old World ? And what was the Rule of Enoch's Faith , by which he was translated ? And Abraham's Faith , who obeyed God , and forsook his Countrey ? — Answer these things by Scripture , because you say , The Writings ( the Scriptures ) are the Rule of Faith. And Presbyterians and Independants , have you forgotten all your Petitions and Addresses you Petitioned and made to the other Powers against the Quakers ? If you have forgotten them , read William Caton 's Book of your Petitions and Addresses gathered up and down the Nation . What you said of Oliver and Richard , and how the People of God , in scorn called Quakers ( the first beginning of calling them so , was at Darby , by one Bennet an Independant , about 19 year since ) and then when the People called Quakers were gathered together in divers places to Worship God , then you said they were Plotting together against Oliver ( whom some of you called the Light of your Eyes , and breath of your Nostrils ) to bring in King Charles ; and Oliver said , We would not hurt a Mouse , at that time , though he did cast many of us in Prison , through you , after that ; and then you Baptized us in your Prisons by cruel sufferings . Of all men — you should hold your Tongues in bawling so against us , seeing the Light of your Eyes , and breath of your Nostrils is gone ; — And what , was it not through some of you , That the Act against Sturdy Beggars came forth ? upon which , Friends at that time could hardly travel three or four miles from their own Houses , but they were Whipped , men worth three or four-score pounds , or an hundred a year , were Whipped for Beggars and Vagrants ; — — And then did you not get another Act , That we must not speak to you in going or coming from a Steeple-house ? And how Friends were thronged in Prison up and down in the Nation by you ? Answer these Queries . And thus you may see what a Havock you made in your Day ; but when Persecution came , you durst hardly look out with your heads your selves . And was there ever the like known , or seen , how your Brethren turns from North to South , and from South to North ; and there they can turn , and chop , and change ; — And yet you could tell us then , That the Common-Prayer was Hell , and Egyptian Bondage . — And we could hardly have a Meeting , but you were incensing the Rulers against us , That we were Plotting to bring in King Charles ; and how many in those dayes were put in Prison upon that account by you , because we went to Meetings ? We can tell you , we have a List of them ; — And yet the Quakers were House Creepers ( said you ) when you had gotten the Mass-houses , and Tythes , and your Easter-Reckonings , and Midsummer-Dues , and straining our Goods for your Bread and Wine ; — And who are become the House Creepers now ? — Then you had gotten the old Mass-houses . Oh! your filthiness comes to be made manifest to all men , and you have made your selves ridiculous ; who are fighting against an innocent People , that wishes hurt to no man , but the good of all men . And do you think that the Lord will nor remember and reckon with you for all these things ? Dare you look into the Book of your Actions and Consciences , and see what is written there , and see if they be not Recorded . How now Presbyterians , High Priests ! What , is this your Doctrine that you now Preach up , for your Hearers , to go to a Bawdy-house , as Thomas Vincent speaks ? What Liberty here , do you give to Youth , and your Hearers ? who sayes , It 's worse to go to the Quakers Meetings , than to a Bawdy-house : You pleaded for a body of sin as long as you live , but now it 's com'd out indeed , when you plead for a Bawdy-house rather than Quakers Meetings ; it 's like the Presbyterian Priest knows where they are , it appears , as if he thought more of a Bawdy-house , than of Christ and Vertue . So it 's clear here , you are Them that turn the People to Vice , and from the Lord and his Truth ( Ellimas like ) seeking to pervert ; For the Quakers Meetings are in the Fear , and Power , and Spirit of God , who meet together in the Name of Christ Jesus : so it 's like you love Meetings at Bawdy-houses , more then the Meetings of the People of God ? who meet to Worship God. And if this be your Doctrine , then you must enlarge your Brothel and Bawdy-houses , as they do at Rome , Legorn , and Venice , and other parts in Italy ; and then they will give you Tythes , and Easter-Reckonings , and Midsummer-Dues ; For , have you not called Bawdy-house People , good Church Members ? And have you not taken Tythes of them ? And would you not say , The Peace of God to them , for paying you Tythe ? Who would have thought that we should have had such Unvertuous Expressions from the Presbyterians , that this stinking savour should have lyen covered under their Weeds ; — Well , the Quakers must Declare against all your Bawdy-houses , which thou , Vincent , sayes , Thou hadst rather thy People should go to , than to the Quakers Meetings , where the Word of God is Preached ; — And so Presbyterians , if this be your Doctrine to your People , to send them to Bawdy-houses , rather then to send them to a Meeting of the People of God ; we utterly deny you , and your Bawdy-house too . And is it not a shame to put in Print , to tell the World , That thou wouldst rather have thy People go to a Bawdy-house , than to a Quakers Meeting ? For it 's like , if thou wilt set up that House , thou mayst have a yearly Revenue ( like thy Father the Pope ) out of your Bawdy-houses ; it 's like , if you were there , you might get some gain , if you had Bawdy-houses ; but if you go to the People of God's Meetings , then you will get no gain . Well might William Pen say the Priest prayed whiningly , and looked pale , when you had lost your Easter-Reckonings , and Midsummer-Dues . — Is not the Great Bason holden at Door ? What , this is a new way ? Is it ? Whether brings in more profit to the Priests mouths , Tythes , and Easter-Reckonings , and Midsummer-Dues , or the Great Platter ? Now do you not cry up Bawdy-houses , or any way , so that you can get gain ? I wonder for all this idle time you have had , that you could not Answer Samuel Fisher's Book amongst you , for it stands upon your heads ; he hath Answered all your Principles , and more then you have questioned : Have you forgot your Regiment of Fighting Priests ? and how the Presbyterians and Priests beat the Quakers ? Read the Book of Fighting Priests , how they tore the Cloaths off Lasses and young Men , and drew their Rapiers upon them , and broke their heads , and shed their blood , and yet you must have the Title of Gospelers , but more like unto raging Heathens , who imagine vain things against God , and Christ , and his People ; but the Lord hath broken your horn , the wild beast , and put him under a chain : So we looked you would have given out a Book of Repentance for all your wicked Actions in the other Powers dayes , and shewed forth a work of Reformation ; Do you not remember how you came with your Drums and Fiddles ? Independants and Presbyterians , Is it not clear here to all People , That you deny God , and Christ , and the Doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles , in your saying , That God hath ordained some Persons to be damned , when God saith , Ezek. 18.32 . He desires not the death of him that dieth . And in Isa. 1.18 . it 's said , Come let us reason together , saith the Lord , though your sins be as scarlet , they shall be as white as snow ; and though they be red like crimson , they shall be like wooll : And , vers . 16. Wash ye , make ye clean , put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes , cease to do evil , learn to do well . — And the Apostle saith , in 1 Tim. 2.4 . God would have all men to be saved , and to come to the knowledge of the Truth ; And Christ hath given himself a Ransom for all , to be testified in due time ; And Christ tasted death for every man , and is a Propitiation for the sins of the whole world . And his Blood was shed for all men . And the Gospel is to be Preached to every Creature ; And , Go and teach all Nations , Matth. 28. Now is it not clear , That these Presbyterians and Independants , who say , That Christ died but for some , and offered but for some ; Have they not denied Christ's Blood for all men , and his Propitiation for all men ? — And in doing this , they deny God's Will , who would have all men to be saved , and to come to the knowledge of the Truth . And would they not lay the fault in God , when the fault is in man by not believing ? And do they not make Sects here , in saying he died but for some , and would have but some to be saved , and he shed his Blood but for some . — And the Scripture saith , That all are gone astray , both Jew and Gentile , that he might have mercy upon All : See Rom. 11.32 . And they say , That he will not have mercy upon all ; and do not you say , That he will have mercy upon some ? contradicting the Apostle and the Rule . — For the Scripture saith , Christ enlighteneth every man that cometh into the World ; and you say that he enlighteneth but some . — And the Scripture saith , That the grace of God that bringeth Salvation , hath appeared to all men ; and you say , The Grace of God that brings Salvation , hath appeared but to some , and all have not received Grace . And the Scripture saith , God so loved the World , that he gave his only begotten Son into the World , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life : — And do not you say he gave him but for a few , and loved some of the World ? And , do not you Contradict Scripture , and God , and Christ , and the Prophets and Apostles words , and so are found in an Erronicus Principled Spirit ? — And so , is it not clear , that you deny Christ , who died without the Gates at Jerusalem , whose Blood was shed for all men , and denies the Propitiation and Attonement for all men , and denies Jacob's Prophecy , who prophesied , That the gathering of all Nations shall be to Shilo . — And you say , That some of the Nations shall be saved , not all ; and here , do you not deny the very Scripture it self , and God , and Christ , and the Prophets and Apostles words , and denies their Doctrine ? And also , Is it not clear that you deny the true Faith of God's Elect , that the Just lives by ? And is not Faith the Gift of God ? And do you not say , That Faith is not perfect ? Do not you hold Justification without , and that it is without Man and Woman ? And doth not Faith heal ? See Matth. Mark , Luke , and the Acts. And was not the Church Established in the Faith ? Acts 16.5 . Is it not called the Righteousness of Faith ? Rom. 4.13 . And how that the Saints are Heirs by Faith , and it is called the Word of Faith , Rom. 10. — And it is called the Spirit of Faith , 2 Cor. 4.13 . Gal , 5.6 . and Faith that works by Love. — So it 's clear , that you are out of this Faith , that lives in malice and hatred . — And the Scripture speaks of one Faith , one Baptism , Eph. 4. and the Unity is in the Faith , and Faith gives Victory over that which hath separated from God. — And Faith is the Shield . — And the Saints was to strive together for the Faith of the Gospel , 1 Thes. 3. Remember your work of Faith , and put on the brestplate of Faith , 1 Thes. 5.8 . The work of Faith with Power ; and holding Faith and a good Conscience , 1 Tim. 5.19 . And have not you made shipwrack of this Faith in Christ Jesus , and God , to say Christ's Blood was not shed for all men , and God would not have all men to be saved ; and hath ordained some to damnation ? Is not Faith called a Mystery , 1 Tim. 3.9 . Were not the Saints to fight the good Fight of Faith , 1 Tim. 6.12 . — Are not you among them that have erred concerning the Faith , and have overthrown the Faith of some in not believing the one Offering once for all , his Blood for all , his Death for all , and so are become Reprobates concerning the Common Faith , Tit. 1.4 . — And without Faith it is impossible to please God , who is the Author and Finisher of our Faith ; — which you made yours at Savoy in eleven dayes time , in Oliver's dayes . — And the Just shall live by his Faith , Heb. 2. and hearts purified by Faith , Acts 15. — and Sanctified by Faith , Acts 26. Rom. 3. a man is Justified by Faith. — So it 's clear , Reader , that Faith Justifies , Sanctifies , — and Faith purifies rhe heart , and so this Justification is within , and the Mystery of Faith is held in a pure Conscience , and the Conscience must be within , must it not Reader ? And so here thou mayst see how these Presbyterians and Independants have erred from the Apostles Doctrine . — And in Rom. 5. and being Justified by Faith , — by whom we have access to God by Faith , and Justified by Faith in Christ Jesus , Gal. 2. And the Apostle saith , I live by the Faith of the Son of God , — and the Just lives by Faith , — by grace you are saved through Faith , Eph. 2.8 . Luk. 2.5 . thy Faith hath saved thee . And do not the Presbyterians and Independants deny Christ's Doctrine who deny Perfection , — both the Doctrine of God , and the Command of Jesus Christ , and the Ministry of Christ Jesus , and makes void all the Apostles Exhortation ? — For God said to Abraham , Walk before me and be thou perfect , Gen. 17. — And do they not deny the way of God which is perfect , Psal. 18.30 . And the Law of the Lord is perfect ; and Christ saith , Every one that is perfect , shall be as he is ; — And , be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect , Mat. 5. And Noah was a perfect man , Gen. 6. Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord : He hath made my way perfect , 2 Sam. 20. Job was a perfect man , and one that feared God , and eschewed evil , Job 1.1 . God will not cast away the perfect man. — — Now , do you not say there is no Perfection ? Do you not give the Scripture the lye ? God made my way perfect , Psal. 18. Mark the perfect man , Psal. 37. And the Wicked may shoot at the perfect , Psal. 64. And are not you them that shoot at the perfect with your dirty Arrows ? And Christ prayed , That they may be perfect in one , Joh. 17. Is not Christ's Prayer to be fulfilled , or did he pray in vain ? Will you deny his Prayer you vain men ? Is not Christ's Prayers available ? — The Apostle said , He spoke wisdom among them that were perfect . — ye false Ministers say there are none perfect . God comforts his People , and Ministers , and sayes , His strength is made perfect in their weakness . Herein is encouragement to Perfection by God's Ministers , Be perfect , be of good comfort ; but you say none can be perfect , and so you are miserable Comforters . — And the Work of the Ministry , Eph. 4. was to bring People to the knowledge of God , to a perfect man , and to the measure and stature of the fulness of Christ ; — And are not you false Ministers , and evil workers , who say there is no Perfection , you cannot bring them , it seems , to a perfect man , you cannot bring them to the measure of the stature of Christ , — but runs up and down , and fetches all the weaknesses of the Saints , and applies them to People to hold up Imperfection to them , as Paul , Peter , John , and some others . 2 Cor. 13. We wish your Perfection , and Heb. 6. let us go on to Perfection . — And Col. 2. the bond of Perfectness . — So is it not clear here whose Ministers you are ? — neither according to God , nor Christ , nor according to the Scriptures , nor according to the Prophets nor Apostles . — By one Offering , he hath Perfected , for ever , them that are Sanctified . — And what Hee , is this , but Christ Jesus ? — And now it 's clear , That you deny this Faith that Sanctifies , — and that you deny this one Offering ( mark ) for ever , them that are Sanctified . — And so it 's clear , That you deny the one Offering of Christ Jesus without the Gates of Jerusalem ; — and sayes , That none are perfect , and no Perfection here : — You may as well say there is no Faith here . — And you that say also there is no Overcoming here , you may as well deny Belief here ; for , he that believes is born of God , and he that is born of God overcomes the World ; — and greater is he that is in you ; than he that is in the World. So it is manifest , That you have not this greater Birth in you to overcome the World ; and here you stand against all the Believers , and all the houshold of Faith , which Faith gives Victory ; — And you say there is no Victory here ; — And so , what can you cry up but sin , and Bawdy-houses ? And you would rather have your People go into Bawdy-houses , then to go to the houshold of Faith , which preaches down Sin , and Imperfection : — For God is perfect , his Way is perfect ; and he bids , be perfect : — And the Ministers was to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus , see Col. And you Preach up Imperfection for term of Life , so Ministers of Satan ; — for the Devil made man imperfect , Christ makes them perfect ; and God made them perfect , and said , Be perfect . So are you not all the blind Guides that leads into the ditch , which is a corrupted place , that People are corrupted , not perfect ; but the true Ministers presented them perfect in Christ Jesus . — And so , is it not clear , That you deny the Blood of Christ , and trample it under your feet ? — For , Christ Sanctifies his People with his own Blood , Heb. 10. The Blood of Christ Jesus cleanseth from all sin , 1 Joh. 1. & Rev. And he hath washed us from our sins in his Blood ; And they overcame by the Blood of the Lamb ; And , whose Garments were made white by the Blood of Jesus . And do you not give the Apostle , and the Scriptures the Lye , and makes Christ's Blood of none Effect ; — And sayes , They are not made white , they are not cleansed from all sin , and that they must have a body of sin and death as long as they live , and that they are not Redeemed to God. — Do you not make the Blood of Christ of none effect here ? — which is to wash and to cleanse away that which is brought into Adam by the Serpent , and deny Christ's Purchase , who purchased his People , and Justifies by his Blood , and Redeemed through his Blood ; And what Redemption is this , and Purchase is this , and Justification is this , if they be not Redeemed out of sin , and evil , and old Adam ; Christ hath Redeemed us to God through his Blood , Rev. 5. Eph. 1. Are not you them that have counted the Blood of the new Covenant of none effect , Heb. 10. and troden it under foot , wherewith he Sanctifies , and so are they that have done despite against the Spirit of Grace ; for do you not say , the Spirit of God is not given to every man to profit withal ; — only some have the Spirit say you ; — Who are they then , that vexes it , and quenches it , and grieves it ? — And were not they wicked People whom the Lord gave his good Spirit to , to instruct them , Nehem. 9. they were such as rebelled against Nehemiah . And here it is clear , That you make Sects , and denies the Prophets and Apostles Doctrine . — And you say , That Christ doth not enlighten every man that cometh into the World ; Do you not here deny John's Doctrine , and Scriptures , and Christ himself , who saith He is the Light of the World. — And deny that which People should believe in , — believe in the Light , that you may become Children of the Light , as in Joh. 14. — And deny that which should give People the Knowledge of the Light that is in their hearts , the Light of Jesus , 2 Cor. 4. — And so People see what these men can Preach , that deny true Faith , true Belief , true Apostles , and Scripture , and the Blood of Christ , and the Offering ; and so denies God , and Christ , and his Commands ; and Preach up Sin , and Imperfection , and the Bawdy-houses ; and would have his Hearers rather go to a Bawdy-house , than to go among the People called Quakers , that Preaches up Perfection , and the Blood of Jesus , the One Offering , that makes People perfect , and Sanctifies them ; and must not People have Faith in them , and Christ in them , and the Blood in them sprinkling their Hearts and Consciences ? Reader , I pray thee read the Scriptures , for they were given forth to be read , and believed ; and not for Presbyterians and Independants to make a Trade of them , and keep People alwayes to be hearing them , and paying of them ; the Holy Men of God did not give forth the Scriptures for that end , that suffered many of them , to death , for giving them forth : And so I pray thee , Reader , do not fell thy Wit and Reason any longer ; for they will put it up all in their Pokes and Bags , and then lead them into a ditch , and barren Mountain , and so feed themselves of you , and not feed you : But the Lord is come to gather his People from off the barren Mountains , and from their mouths that have fed themselves and not the Flock , and sought themselves and not the Flock ; and made a Prey upon you , and sought for your wooll , & hath bit you when you put not into their mouths ; and have sought for handfuls of Barley , and a piece of Bread ; and hath born rule amongst you by their means ; and hath been the greedy dumb Dogs that could never have enough , — who have been slumbering . — Read Jer. 5. Isa. 56. Mic. 3. Ezek. 14. and so read how Christ marks out those false Teachers , Mat. 23. And the Apostle to Timothy and Titus . — So no more , but my Love , that you may all come to know the Freedom in Christ , from all the blind Guides . G. F. Jo. Stubbs . If that the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost be three distinct separate Persons , not simply One , or agreeing simply , as the Priest saith , then how far distance are they from one another ? shew us Chapter and Verse for this , and make it good by Scriptures . And let us see through all the Scriptures , where ever the Holy Men of God did give such Titles or Names to God , and Christ , and the Holy Ghost , as the Presbyterians and Independants have done , as may be seen in this Book . The Scripture saith , That God , and Christ , and the Holy Ghost will dwell in Man ; & then you Independant & Presbyterian Priests , Whether then that there is not three Persons in a Man ( dwelling in him ) that is a Person ? for the Apostle saith , That your Bodies are the Temples of the Holy Ghost , and that your Bodies are the Temples of God , and that Christ is in you , except ye are Reprobates ? The DIVINITY of CHRIST , Confessed by us called Quakers ; — And , What we own touching the Deity or God-head , according to the Scriptures . THat there is but one God , the Father , of whom are all things , and we in him , and our Lord Jesus Christ , by whom are all things , and we by him . That there are Three that bear Record in Heaven , the Father , the Word , and the Spirit , and that these three are One , both in Divinity , Divine Substance , and Essence ; not three Gods , nor separate Beings . That they are called by several Names in Scripture , as manifest to , and in the Saints ( for whatsoever may be known of God , is manifest in man , Rom. 1. ) and their Record received as the full testimony of three , by such as truly know and own the Record of the three in Earth ; and yet they are Eternally One in Nature and Being ; One infinite Wisdom , One Power , One Love , One Light and Life , &c. We never denyed the Divinity of Christ , as most injuriously we have been accused by some prejudiced spirits , who prejudicially in their perverse Contests have sought occasion against us ; As chiefly because ( when some of us , were in Dispute with some Presbyterians ) we could not own their unscriptural distinctions and terms , — ( touching the Father , the Word , and the Holy Spirit ) to wit , Of their being incommunicable , distinct , separate persons , or subsistences , whereas the Father , the Word , and Spirit are One , not to be compared to corruptible men , nor to finite Creatures or Persons , which are limitable and separable . For , the only Wise God , the Creator of all , who is One , and his Name One , is infinite and inseparable , Deut. 6.4 . Zec. 14.9 . And the Father's begetting the Son , and the Spirit 's being sent , we witness to and own ; as He said , Thou art my Son , this day I have begotten thee , Psal. 2.7 . Heb. 1.5 . And he hath sent his Spirit into our hearts , Gal. 4.6 . And that the Father is in the Son , and the Son in the Father , yea , in the bosome of the Father , Joh. 1.18 . & chap. 17.21 , 23. so that they are neither divided , nor separate , being One , and of One infinite Nature , and Substance ; Christ being the Image of the invisible God ; the first born of every Creature , by whom all things were Created , both in Heaven and in Earth , Col. 1. — Yea , the Son of God is the brightness of his glory , and the express Image of his substance , Heb. 1.3 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , And that it was in due time God was manifest in Flesh , 1 Tim. 3.16 . As in the fulness of time . God sent his Son , Gal. 4. And the Son of God was made manifest to destroy sin , 1 Joh. 3.8 . And a manifestation of the Spirit is given to every Man to profit withal , 1 Cor. 12. — So the manifestation of the Father , of the Son , and Holy Spirit ( we confess to , and own to be in Unity ( and so the only true God ) according to the Scriptures . And that Jesus Christ being in the Form of God , thought it no robbery to be Equal with God , and yet as a Son , in the fulness of time , was sent of the Father , and took on him the form of a servant , Phil. 2.6 , 7. in which state he said , My Father is greater than I , 1 Joh. 14.28 . And he learned Obedience through Suffering , and was made perfect , and is become an everlasting High Priest , after the Order of Melchisedeck , and is the Author of Eternal Salvation , unto all them that Obey him , Heb. 5. — And God hath given us Eternal Life in his Son : And unto us a Child is born , and a Son is given to Govern , whose Name is Wonderful Counsellor , The Mighty God , The Everlasting Father , The Prince of Peace , Isa. 9.6 . And he is over all , God blessed for ever , Rom. 9.5 . Even the true God , and Eternal Life , 1 Joh. 5. So that the Deity or Divinity of Christ , in his Eternal , Infinite , Glorious State , we really confess and own ; having known his Virtue and Power to redeem us from our vain Conversations , and to save us from wrath to come . And our knowledge of the only true God , and our Faith in , and concerning him , and his Name , unto our Salvation , doth not consist in the traditional Names , humane Inventions ( nor in Philosophical terms , and nice School distinctions , derived from Heathenish Metaphysicks ; which since the Apostles time , men have put upon the God-head ) but in the living sense , and feeling of his Divine Power , Life , and Love , revealed in us by the Spirit of the Son of God ; whereby we have ( in his gift of Divine Light and Spirit ) received Life and Salvation , from sin and death ; see Matth. 11.27 . Luk. 10.22 . Matth. 16.17 . Rom. 1.17 . ch . 8.18 . Gal. 1.16 . Eph. 3.5 . 1 Pet. 15.12 . ch . 4.14 . ch . 4.13 . ch . 5.1 . 2 Pet. 1 , 3. Matth. 1.21 . Also we judge , That such Expressions , and Words as the Holy Ghost taught the true Apostles , and Holy Men mentioned in the Scriptures , are most meet to speak of God , and Christ , and not the words of mans wisdom , or humane inventions , and devised distinctions since the Apostles dayes . Finally , We have received an Unction , or Anointing , from the Holy One , which as it doth teach us , we know a continuance in the Father and in the Son , 1 Joh. 2. And for whom we know the Father is well pleased , and in him we know the true Satisfaction , Justification , and Peace , which all that abide in him , enjoy and witness . Now unto the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit , the One Eternal Word , The Only Wise , Pure , Perfect God , who is Infinite , Omnipotent , Incomprehensible , who giveth unto all Life and Being , and is the Life of all , and the Being of Beings , who filleth all in all with his Presence , Unto whom be Glory now and evermore , [ saith our Souls . ] G. Whitehead . And for Definition of a Person , or what a Person is , we shall not need to go to Popish and Heathenish Authors , as Thomas Aquinas , Aristotle , and others ; as some of these Presbyterian Teachers , and others , have done , when they have gone about to demonstrate their Doctrine of a Trinity of distinct Persons in God ; And yet in Contradiction , for a cloak , they pretend the Scriptures to be their Rule , wherein there is no proof of their calling the Father , the Word , and the Spirit , three distinct Persons , while the Scriptures be full and plain enough to prove , define , or shew what a Person is ; as namely , a Man or Woman ; sometime the body , the face , or visible appearance of either , &c. But the Infinite God is not like unto corruptible man. See first in the Old Testament ( so called ) as to Person ; Esau took his Wives , his Sons and Daughters , and all the Persons of his house , Gen. 36.16 . Joseph was a goodly person , Gen. 39.6 . The Number of your persons , Exod. 16.16 . No uncircumcised person , Exod. 12.48 . The person of the poor and of the mighty , Levit. 19. The guilty person , unclean person , Numb . 5.6 . A clean person , Numb . 19.18 . Thirty two thousand persons in all , of Women , &c. Numb . 31.35 . Whosoever killeth any person , vers . 19. Numb . 35.11 , 15 , 30. Josh. 20. 3 , 9. Abimelech , the son of Jerubbaal , hired vain light persons , and slew his brethren the sons of Jerubbaal , being threescore and ten persons , Judg. 9. [ Note here that persons dyed , or were slain . But can it be said of the Immortal God , whom they distinguish into three several Persons , that he ever dyes ? And though Christ , as concerning the Flesh , or Person , was put to Death , so was not his Divine Life or God-head ] And again , Not a goodlier person than Saul , 1 Sam. 9.2 . David a comely person , 1 Sam. 16.18 . When wicked men have slain a righteous person , 2 Sam. 4.11 . They shall come at no dead person , Ezek. 44.25 . Or will he accept thy person , Mal. 1.8 . ( These places before cited , with many more , are according to the English ) God accepteth not the person of Princes , Job 34.19 . which in the Hebrew is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Phene Sarim , i. e. facies Principum , the faces of Princes . And the same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Phene , is ( in Gen. 1.2 . ) for the face of the deep . See likewise , Gen. 4.14 . Job 38.30 . with many more places in the Old Testament ; so that the same word which is translated person , having also relation to the outward face of men and things ; how can it be either proper , seasonable , or good Doctrine to Preach the Invisible , Incomprehensible God , under these terms of three distinct or separate Persons ? And whether it doth not render God , or represent the Deity , to be like visible men , or finite creatures , that are comprehended in time , yea or nay ? And hath not this kind of representing the God-head , produce those vain Conceptions and Imaginations in the minds of the Ignorant , from whence they have formed the Images and Pictures of God , and Christ , and Holy Ghost , made by men of corrupt minds in the night of Apostacy , and Popery , to the great reproach and abuse of the Name of God , and Profession of Christianity in the World ? See also more Scriptures touching Persons , to the same purpose , as before : Judg. 20.39 . 1 Sam. 9.22 . & 22.18 , 22. 2 King. 10.6 , 7. 2 Chron. 19.7 . Psal. 26.4 . Psal. 82.2 . Prov. 12.11 . Prov. 24.23 . Jer. 52.29 , 30. Lam. 4.16 . Ezek. 17.17 . Chron. 27.13 . Joh. 4.11 . Zeph. 3.4 . Mal. 1.9 . And 2dly in the New Testament ( so called ) it appeares , that the word Person or Persons is mentioned with the same acceptation , as before in the Old : As for instance , Thou regardest not the person of men , Matth. 22.16 . Mar. 12.14 . Luk. 20.21 . In the Greek it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. faciem hominum , the face of men ; In the Hebrew it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 phene haadam . Doth not this still relate to the outward or visible appearance of man ? See also , Matth. 27.24 . 1 Cor. 5.13 . Gal. 2.6 . Eph. 5.5 . Heb. 12.16 . 2 Pet. 2.5 . Luk. 15.7 . Act. 10.34 . & 17.17 . Rom. 2.11 . Jude 16. 2 Cor. 1.11 . Eph. 6.9 . Col. 3.25 . 1 Tim. 1.10 . Jam. 2.1 , 9. 1 Pet. 1.17 . 2 Pet. 3.11 . In all which it is evident , That the word persons is attributed to men , &c. And as to that of 2 Cor. 2.10 . where some of our English Copies have it , To whom I forgave it , for your sakes forgave I it , in the Person of Christ ; The words in the Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are translated in facie Christi , in the face of Christ ; And some of the Latins have it , in conspectu Christi , in the sight of Christ. And that in Heb. 1.13 . where speaking of the Son of God , In some of the English we have it thus , — Who being the Brightness of his Glory , and the express Image of his Person : In the Greek it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. Et character substantiae ejus , and the Character of his Substance : It is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of his Person . As also in Heb. 11.1 . Faith is the substance of things hoped for . The same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is used for Substance , as before in Heb. 1.3 . and not Person . It would not be proper to say , Faith is the Person of things hoped for , but the Substance . Also the same word is in 2 Cor. 9.4 . ( where we have it Constant , or Confident ) In Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in Latine Substantiâ ; Substance , not Person . And so the Son of God is the express Image or Character of his Substance ; which cannot be severed ( as a distinct Person ) from his Substance ; he being also the brightness of the glory of God ; which expresseth or sheweth the transcendent Glory of his Divine Substance , beyond all visible Appearances , Faces , or Persons ; and is only seen and revealed in the Light and Life of God , and his Son within , revealed only to such in whom the Image of God is renewed , whose minds and eyes are so spiritual , as to look and see beyond all the fallen Inventions and Imaginations of corrupt ignorant men , who are groaping in the dark , and vainly imagining to know , comprehend , and declare the Immortal , Invisible God , in such invented Names and Terms , as they have but meerly by Tradition from men without , which do most suite their dark thoughts , and carnal conceptions , whereby they can never know God , nor perceive Divine or Spiritual things ; but thereby have greatly darkned both themselves , and others . CHAP. I. Of the Answer , wherein Thomas Vincent's railing and sinful Doctrines for Sin and Imperfection , are Refuted , and his Contradictions discovered . IN Tho. Vincent his Title Page , and Introduction , a storm of bitter railing , aspersing , and slandering the Innocent People of God called Quakers , hath proceeded from him , as Black-mouths , most hideous Blasphemies , Socinian and damnable Heretical opinious Doctrines , and the like ; with several false accusations and slanders cast upon G.F. I.N. and others , which hath been long since Answered and Refuted , both in verbal Testimonies and in Print ; And the envious ridged Spirit of several Presbyterians against us therein plainly discovered . And let the impartial Reader judge , Whether such-like railing Language against us , as T. V. hath vented , doth become one pretending to be Christ's Minister , or one that would have People believe he hath built upon the Rock , or hath Christ Jesus for his Foundation ; whereas they that learn of Christ , learn meekness , lowliness , humility , and not railing , reviling , and slandering , which proceeds from bitter envy in the heart , which where it is , there is confusion , &c. as plainly appears in T. Vincent and his Brethren's Work , which proceeds not from the Wisdom which is from above , which is pure and peaceable , but from that which is earthly , sensual , & devillish . So let the unbyassed judge , whether T. V. be a competent man to write about such high Mysteries , about God and Christ , which are concern'd in our Controversie , yea or nay , when he hath shewed himself to be in a contrary Spirit to that of Christ and his Ministers ? And whereas T. V. scornfully reflects upon the People called Quakers , touching W. P. saying , He being counted among them one of their chief , ( this is false ) because of some smattering of Learning which they conceit he hath . This is also both false and scornful , for we lay not such a stress upon smattering of Learning , nor on natural Learning it self , as to make that the supereminent virtue to make men chief amongst us , our esteem does depend upon that which is of a higher nature than either mens Natural parts , Arts , or Learning , even upon the Spirit and Power of God , which gives the right understanding , and is not limited or tyed to mens Traditional Learning and Knowledge , but gives Understanding and Wisedom unto the simple , to see beyond all their corrupt Knowledge and beggarly scraps of Learning and Inventions of men , wherein they are puft up . But so far as W. P. hath a discovery both of the envious Spirit , and Babylonish Confusion , and dark un-scriptural Doctrines of T.V. and others of his ridged fraternity ; I am confident he doth not impute that discovery to his Natural Learning nor Parts , but to the gift of God's Power and Spirit , and desires to magnifie that over all the other . And as for T. V. his going to shelter himself with a pretence of those Doctrines which Protestants generally believe to be essential ; this will neither cover his weakness and confusion , nor hide the envy of his heart , that hath vented its self in his Pamphlet against an innocent People ; Neither do I believe , That any of the unbyassed Protestants ( that are accounted competent in these matters ) will either own many of T. V. his Principles , or his shallow way of managing those that are owned amongst them . And as to his accusing us of more grossely erring in the Fundamentals of Religion than the Papists themselves . It may be justly charged upon himself , as in divers things hereafter will appear ; and T. V. hath more absurdly than the Papists , argued for Three distinct separate Persons , subsistents or subsistences , or rather subsistants , saith T.D. in one single divine Essence ; but more of this hereafter . One of T. V. his main Accusations against our Doctrine is , That two Quakers asserted the Perfection of Saints in this Life , and that the proof was 1 Joh. 3.9 . Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin ; To which T.V. answered , That the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie , He doth not make it his business to sin [ whereas it is onely , He doth not do , or commit sin . But he should have read a little further 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he cannot sin , ] The meaning , saith he , was , that such as are born again did not make a trade of sin , did not go on in a course of sin , did not commit sin with the full bent of the will as the wicked do , but that it could not be understood of not committing sin at all , from ch . 1.8 . If we say we have no sin , &c. there he speaketh of himself , and others , that were born again , &c. Reply . Let every impartial Reader judge , whether T. V. his meaning , contrary to the plain words of the Apostle , Joh. 3.9 . be any sufficient proof to evince that our Doctrine of the Perfection of Saints in this Life , is either damnable or heretical . 1. For , first ; whereas John saith , Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin ; for his seed remaineth in him , and he cannot sin , because he is born of God. Now T. V. his Doctrine and meaning speakes as much , as that he that is born of God doth commit sin , ( shall we believe John or him ? ) but not so as to make a trade of sin , not go on in a course of sin , with the full bent of his will , as the wicked doth : How hath he herein accused the Child of God , whom John saith cannot sin , because he is born of God ; his being born of God ( and so being related to God in his Spirit , Nature , and Image ) is made the reason that he commits not sin ; but if a man should say , He commits sin , but not to make it his business , or to go on in a course of sin , with the full bent of his will as do the wicked , because he is born of God ; Doth not this reflect upon that pure Relation he hath with the Father , and so upon the Nature of God for begetting and bringing forth such an impure birth ? And is not this to frustrate the end of the Son of God , in being made manifest to destroy the works of the Devil ; whereas , he that abides in Christ sinneth not ; see further , 1 Joh. 3.5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 verses . 2. Whereas T. V. his contrary meaning to plain Scripture , accuseth the Apostle John , and others that were born again , with committing sin , from that chap. 1. vers . 8. that doth not prove it against John , and such as he hath so accused ( whereby he hath rendred John to be of the Devil , for he that commits sin is so , 1 Joh. 3.8 . ) no more then James his saying , With the same Tongue bless we God , and curse we men , doth prove himself to be one that so cursed , which he said ought not to be ; for John writes to divers states and degrees of growth , as to them that had sin to be cleansed from , that they might walk in the Light , to know the Blood of Christ to cleanse them from all sin , vers . 7. As also he said , If we confess our sins , he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins , and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness , vers . 9. Surely John was come further then a Confession of sin at that time ; besides , having sin , may relate either to a former state , or to its besetting the Creature in the temptations when it is warred against , and in the Faith withstood in its motions , in order to a Conquest , when the Creature doth not commit sin , but withstands it , as Paul said , It s not I that sinneth ; so that having some sin , and committing sin , are two things ; for it doth not appear that the beloved Disciple or Apostle John was a committer of sin in that state when he wrote that Epistle ; for he saith , vers . 10. If we say we have not sinned , we make him a lyar , and his word is not in us ; which relates to a state that was past : If we say we have not sinned , is not all one as to say , if we say we do not commit sin , &c. Yet he saith , chap. 2.1 . My little Children , these things I write unto you , that ye sin not : Now had John been of T. V's perswasion , that such a state of Perfection , or not Sinning , is not here attainable , why should he exhort them not to sin , and so plainly shew the difference between him that is born of God , and him that is of the Devil ? See 1 Joh. 3. throughout . And then as to T. V. his supposed Consequence from our Doctrine of Perfection , That whoever found any sin in them , were not born of God : which , I say , that its neither our Assertion , nor the Consequence of our saying , That he that 's born of God doth not commit sin , for having sin , when it is withstood and warred against by that which is born of God , and committing sin , are two things ; yet we know that that which is born of God overcomes the World ; and this is the Victory , even our Faith , and the end of Christ's manifestation is to destroy sin , that it may not have a being , so long as we live , in us . And T.V. further adds , That if they should die with any sin remaining , they would certainly go to Hell , and so none there , yea , none in the World would be saved he saith ; Hereby he still takes it for granted , That there 's no such Perfection here as a freedom from all sin , but that all God's Children die with sin remaining in them ; I then ask , How long after death shall sin remain , and when and where is the time and place of being fully cleansed after death , is it in the Grave , or is it in some Purgatory ? For if God's Children must be cleansed after death , they must be cleansed somewhere , and then in the mean time , betwixt death and this supposed time and place of cleansing and purging , where lyes the sin , and pollution , and the stain of it , is it in the Soul , or in the Body ? Surely not in the Body when dead , neither can the Soul go to God with sin or pollution in it , for no unclean thing can enter into his Kingdom , or dwell with him ; so then the Question still remains , where the Soul is after death , and where is the place of its purging and fully cleansing ? If T. V. and his Brethren are not Papists , let them answer , and clear themselves and Principle , from the Popes Purgatory . T. V. his reviling and calling us , Audacious Quakers , who have not the least degree of true Grace , because of damnable Opinions . This his harsh language , and railing , signifies little to us for any proof against us , or what we hold , but only shewes his own peevishness and implacable enmity , as one vexed and fretted in his mind , and so not fit to intermeddle with things of so high concernment , as he hath presumptiously attempted to stir in , as about Perfection , and the Deity , and Satisfaction of Christ , & Justification , Righteousness , &c. nor yet to call and exhort others , whilst he himself had need to be called and exhorted to repent of his hard and uncharitable speeches and censours , and to come to meekness and moderation , which would better become his Profession . And his confidence , that we have not the least degree of true grace , is both a false and uncharitable confidence , and charge against us ; as also his flaunting and jearing W. P. as having but some smattering of Learning , and being but little of a Scholar , never to have read nor understood Logick , or to have forgot , or laid it aside . Herein hath he manifested himself both scornful and ridiculous , to make so much use of his own pretended Learning , Arguments , Logick , Demonstration , &c. to such as he reckons hath neither true grace , nor Learning ; it appears T.V. had a mind to shew himself in a vain flourish and boasting over such whom he hath endeavoured to render contemptible , mean , and ignorant , as he hath done us ; all which doth but the more manifest the pride of his heart , vain-glorying &c. And then he adds , I told them that all true Believers were perfect in a sense , they were Evangellically perfect , but not legally , not absolutly perfect ; they had perfection of parts , but not of degrees . I Answer , What confusion is here , and what contradiction to his former Doctrine of Imperfection and Sin in this Life ; for first an Evangelical Perfection he grants , but not a Legal ; as if either the Law , or the state under it , were above the Gospel ; or else that the state of the Gospel is not a state of Perfection exceeding that under the Law , but rather inferiour ; both which are false and absurd . For this Doctrine doth not only charge Imperfection upon the Creature under the Gospel , but upon the Gospel it self , whilst Evangelical Perfection is deemed either Imperfection , or not a Freedom from sin or transgression of the Law , whilst here ; and then judge whether Imperfection and Sin be Evangelical . Surely all , who have any true spiritual knowledge of the Law , Gospel , and new Birth , may easily see beyond this man , and also see his Ignorance and Contradiction to himself : for the state of the Gospel is so far from being inferiour to that under the Law that it exceeds ; for God finding fault with his People under the first Covenant , saw it needful to establish a second , in which forgiveness of sin , destroying sin , and the Devil's works ; taking it away , and making an end of it , and remembring sin no more ; ( and so Perfection ) are to be known by the enjoyers and subjects of this Covenant ; as also the Gospel is not short of the Law , nor the Righteousness of it , for Christ came not to destroy the Law , but to fullfil it ; and the Righteousness of Faith is so far from coming short of the Righteousness of the Law ▪ that true Believers do not make void the Law through Faith , but establish it ; and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ , makes free from the Law of Sin and Death . So that the Righteousness and Obedience brought forth in the true and living Faith , which stands in the Power of God , doth answer the righteous Law of God in the heart , and exceeds and surpasses all self-righteousness , and all mens outward immitations of the Law in the letter of it ; but this none knows but those who comes to own the Light and Spirit of Faith inward , and the Law of it . It is not known to such as these men , who count the Light within an Idol , and reckon that it guides contrary to the Light of the Word and Spirit , as in their pages 15. & 53. But as to his Perfection of parts , but not of degrees , this is strange Doctrine ; for if it be a Perfection of parts , but not of degrees , what parts are they , and wherein consists their Perfection not of degrees ? but if he had said there is a Perfection of kind but not in the full height or highest degree of it , then he had said something , though to his own contradiction : But where he adds , That in this sense the work of Grace , though the work of God , was not perfect in regard of our selves , but by degrees was carried on unto further Perfection . Now in contradiction to himself , he hath confest the Work of God by degrees carried on unto further Perfection ; which if so , here is both Perfection in its degrees , which vary not the property or kind , as also the work of Grace , in its carrying on unto further Perfection ; so then there is a time of perfecting or working the work of Grace in order to Perfection , and a time wherein it comes to be wrought and perfected . And now the kind and nature of that Perfection which we believe and plead for , is that which God requires , and Christ worketh , who doth the Father's Will therein in all that truly believe , the which consists in Righteousness and true Holiness , not in any imagined , conceited , or self-righteousness brought forth in man's will , which is not real nor perfect either in man's will-worshipping , self-performing , or applications , which are neither from living Motions of true Faith , nor Evidence of the Spirit of God within , but from men's self-will imaginations and traditions . And whereas T. V. tells of some that were established in the wayes of Truth , intending by his Ministry ; Herein again he hath contradicted himself , for Establishment in the wayes of Truth , is a high state of Perfection ; and such admits not of his Preaching up sin , nor of moving from any of Truth 's wayes , which his Doctrine for Sin and Imperfection , term of Life doth not at all tend too , but rather to keep People in thraldom and captivity , and in a wavering tossed estate in the wayes of sin , which are all contrary to the wayes of Truth , for the wayes of Truth do not admit of a continuance in the wayes of Errour , either in Principle , or Practice . And whereas T. V. complains so sadly , That two of his Friends , Mother and Daughter , that went off to the Quakers in his fortnights absence . It appears that they were not Established by him , as also that he hath led his Hearers to depend more upon himself , than upon the Teachings of God , or his Light within , which is the cause of many's wavering and uncertainty who have followed him , so that if their Teacher or Shepherd T. V. remove into a corner , or if upon Persecution he should flee , or hide himself for fear , as many of them have done , then his flock ( or at least many of them ( would be lyable to be scattered ; but who comes to wait upon God in his Light and Spirit , to know him their Shepherd and Leader , their Teacher will not be removed into a corner , nor their Shepherd flee from them . And whereas T. V. further adds , in an angry reviling manner , against the Mother and Daughter , That the Mother should so much indulge a perverse Will in her , unbefitting a Parent , that it 's like to prove the destruction of Mother and Child , &c. His thus openly reviling of them in Print , may tend to set them further against him then ever ; and now they may see more of his Spirit than before , and if they abide in the Light , to which their minds have been directed , and by which their understandings have been opened since they came amongst us , they will further feel , and see cause for ever to bless the Lord for bringing them out from amongst such false Teachers and Ministers of Sin and Imperfection , as T.V. and his Brethren have manifested themselves to be ; as also seeing what follows from his corrupt Heart and unclean Spirit , it may set all sober minds , and modest Persons against him and his Doctrine more than ever , as they take a view thereof , which most sordid reviling of his was the chief cause and occasion of these Controversies between us . T. V. I acknowledge I did say it was worse to go to the Quakers Meettings than to a Bawdy-house , because the defilement of the Soul with their damnable Errors , was more deep and more hard to be washed off , than the defilement of Whoredom or Adultry . Answ. To which , I say , let all sober-minded Readers but mark the wickedness and grosseness of this man's Doctrine , thus to set an esteem of Bawdy-houses above our Meetings ! What but Impudence and Wickedness could have vented such Doctrine publickly ! It is no marvel that he can so plead and contend for Sin and Imperfection , whilst he deems it worse to go to our Meetings ( where Sin , Wickedness , and Uncleanness is openly Preached against ) than to go to a Bawdy-house where it 's committed ; What abominable Doctrine is this ! and Infamy , and a ground of suspition against himself hath he given hereby , and how contrary to the Spirit and Doctrine of the true Ministers this of his is , for they were so far from such Doctrine , that they reckoned such things not meet to be named amongst them , as becometh Saints , Eph. 5. And how corrupt and grosse is T. V's reason for his wicked and unsavoury Doctrine before , in saying , Because the defilement of the Soul is more deep and more hard to be washed off , than the defilement of Whoredom or Adultry ; As if they did not defile the Soul , but the Body only ; this is a Doctrine that may gratifie Whoremongers and Adulterers , and not only to reject the wholsom Warnings and Reproofs against all such Wickedness , which both in their own Consciences , and in our Meetings , is declared and Preached against ; but also , it tends rather to incourage them to go to Bawdy-houses , than to our Innocent and Godly Meetings , wherein the Truth , Righteousness , and Power of God , which cleanseth and frees from sin and unrighteousness , is exalted , and born witness to . T.V. having so manifestly discovered his Spirit , he had now better go and sit down under the Common Prayer , and confess himself a miserable Sinner among the rest , and not remain in a separation with his whewling and whineing Prayers , feigning himself as one more Holy and Humble than they : What sober People could have thought that such foulness should lie under these Presbyterians coverings , as is mentioned before , and after ! And T. V. further adds , to explain his gross corrupt Doctrine , these words , viz. I told her , if there stood a Cup of Poyson in the Window , I would rather drink it , than drink in their damnable Doctrines ; because poysoning of the Body is not so bad as poysoning and damning the Soul. By which the Reader may further see how his prejudice and envy hath blinded him thus to imply , as if Persons might commit either Whordom or Murder upon their Bodies , and their Souls not be defiled , or damned thereby ; and then what actual wickedness may not People commit , and their Souls not be damnified nor prejudiced by it from this Doctrine ; whereas the wicked slayeth his own Soul ; lifteth up his Soul to vanity ; the Peoples lusting after evil things , caused leanness to enter their Souls ; tribulation and anguish is to come upon every Soul of man that doth evil : And it is only the Power and Life of God which purifies the Soul , sanctifies the Creature throughout , in Body , Soul , and Spirit , and so leads into Righteousness , and thereby saves and brings the Soul to God , and gives it Life , and indues it with the Image of the Heavenly . But after this , T. V. hath uttered such corrupt Language and Doctrine as before , he is so bold as to justifie himself in these words , viz. I am sure I neither did , nor spake any thing unbecoming a Minister of the Gospel . That I refer all modest and sober Readers to judge of , Whether T. V. hath spoken Truth herein , yea or nay ? and , whether or no it had not been more prudence for him to have studied quietness , and quietly to have followed his Devotion with thankfulness for the Liberty they are permitted to enjoy , then thus to have shewed himself in outrage with clamorous reproaches and reviling against us ( who mean him no harm ) to the great disgrace both of himself and his Religion , and them that adher to him therein . And as for his accusing me with confused Discourse , and indirect Answers to his Arguments , and with filling my Mouth and the Peoples Ears with a multitude of words , wherein was so much ambiguity and obscurity , that the sentiments of my mind were not easily to be perceived as he saith . Wherein I have as much cause to complain of not having direct Answers from him , as he seems to have against me , whilst he was so puzled and put to it with what I said , though I answered them in plain Scripture-language ; And wherein their Questions , or pretended Arguments , were either indirect , or in terms , which accorded not with Scripture-language , I did not judge my self ingaged so far , to admit of the stating their matters ( as being infallible in the manner and terms of them ) as to be tyed to Yea or Nay denial of Major or Minor , without further scruple . Their Arguments appear hereafter . And whereas T. V. pleads for using some words in explaining Scripture which are not in the Scripture , saying , That the Quakers ( in their Books ) use many words which are not in the Scripture . I Answer , We neither contend with words or matters which are not contrary , or do not tend to vail or darken the Truth 's ( or simplicity of the innocent language ) contained in Scripture ; neither do we go about to impose one manner and form of expression upon others , or limit them therein whilst they speak the Truth , or what is in , or according to Scripture ; We are not of Kin to the narrow Spirit of the ridged Presbyters , that will count a man a blasphemous Heretick , Socinian , Arian , and what not , if he can't repeat his Creed of the Deity , or Father , Word , and Spirit , in their invented School-terms , although he really believeth and confesseth according to Scripture , unto the only true God , the eternal Word and Spirit ; or , the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit , and that they are One , and in Unity inseparable . And whereas T. V. saith , That W. P. puts forth the sting of the Serpent in tearming his Prayers strangely affected Whines , what more opprobious terms , saith he , would the Damn-me Blades of the Times have used , &c. Answ. To which I say , That he did not only use a strange affected way of Whineing in his feigned Praying , but also therein most falsely accused us for Blasphemers , in telling God , That we compared Him , and his Son , and Holy Spirit , to three finite Creatures , which more justly , was charged upon himself and his Brethren , from their distinction of Persons in the Deity . T. V's lye to God was so apparent in this matter , that some that were by , said , The next time he Prayed , he had need to ask God forgiveness for telling him that Lye ; for our comparison was to evince the natural consequence of their own distinction , and the gross tendency of it , as further is mainfest ; and not to represent the infinite God like unto man , or finite Creatures , as they have done about their Personalities ; And his comparing W. P's words to such tearms as those use he calls The Dam-me Blades of the Times , he should rather have began at home , and judged himself for his own wicked opprobious terms , in saying , It was worse to go to the Quakers Meetings , than to a Bawdy-house ; what more gross terms could the Damners and Sinkers have used ! but evil words corrupt good manners . And as for his Confidence that it is a falshood that they did use such words as impudent villain , & that there was striking among some of T. V's Hearers . There are Persons of repute and credit , who can testifie both against them ; and to my knowledge an honest sober Women did affirm , That one of his Hearers thumpt her on the Breast when we were about that Dispute with them ; besides the malice , envy , and rudeness that appeared amongst them , in clamouring , railing , and reviling us ( like the Billings-gate folks ) though without any just cause , both then , and when we were afterward at their Meeting , to clear our selves from T. V's and W. M. their malicious and slanderous accusation of Blasphemy ; yea , even in the time when I sate silent amongst them , some of their Hearers , both Men and Women would be railing and clamouring against me , when I gave them no seeming ( much less real ) occasion at all , I being silent . So that of all the Assemblies I have been in , I never met with any that shewed less Christianity , Civility , or good Education . And whereas T. V. is neither so honest , nor yet so ingenious , as to acknowledge his apparent and palpable Contradictions in his Sermon , set down and observed by W. P. but rather would out-face us and the Readers , as though they were no Contradictions . Let the Reader therefore take a short review of them ; as first , That a Person that is born of God overcomes the World , and yet the Victory in this Life incompleat . Is not here an evident inconsistency and contradiction is his Doctrine , and ignorance of the Child of God , and the Saints Victory , which was their Faith , 1 Joh. 5.4 . For if he have alwayes enemies or sins unsubdued in this Life , how are they overcome and victory obtained ? Or , is there a Victory over Enemies , and they not overcome ? What false glosses would he set upon his Contradictions ? And his instance of the Canaanites among the Children of Israel , being like Thorns , doing them mischief . This was when they did not as God commanded ; drive them out before them , which is no proof in this case to him that is born of God , for the wicked one cannot touch him , much less mischief him . And T. V. his saying , That such as are in Christ , and cast off the old Man , and known a change altogether New , and yet worldly Lusts cannot be extirpated out of God's People in this World ; Do but mark his plain Contradiction again here , and how doth he clear himself by questions , May not , Have not , Worldly Lusts a being , and some power to oppose in God's People , where they have lost their rule ? But how then are they in Christ , and have cast off the old man , and known a change altogether new , what must the old worldly Lusts still remain unextirpated , in this Life in Christ ? Where then is the newness of Life altogether , or the Grace of God in its teaching to deny those things , obeyed ? And how then are such as be in Christ new Creatures ? Or , how have they that are his , crucified the flesh with the Affections and Lusts ? Which to accuse all God's People of worldly Lusts all their life time , what an abuse is it to them ? Did not Paul see and attain a state beyond that wherein he had seen a Law in his members warring and leading him captive , &c. Did not he see the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ , to make him free from the Law of Sin & Death , when through Christ he became more than a conqueror ? And could he be in all those states he mentioned to the Romans then , at one and the same time ( to wit ) carnal , sold under sin , led captive , having a will to do that which was good , but knew not how ; and also to be freed from the Law of Sin and Death , by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus ; one dead to sin that could not live any longer therein , and more than a conqueror , &c. could these states be consistent , or all his at one and the same time ? viz. To be Carnal , Wretched , a Captive , ignorant of his Duty , and yet a Delivered , Freed , Spiritual man , more than a Conqueror , and an Apostle that then knew how to write that Epistle , Instruct others , and Preach to them in the Fulness of the Gospel ? Were not these Latter his Attainments at that time wherein he shews his deliverance from the former Bondage , Servitude , and Thraldom under the power of Sin , and the Law and Body of it , which is not to remain alwayes , but to be ended , abollished , and destroyed , by the Power and Operation of Jesus Christ in them that believe ; For if Christ be in you , the body is dead because of sin , but the Spirit is Life because of Righteousness . And where the old man is crucified , with him , it is to the destruction of the body of sin , that henceforth sin should not be served , Rom. 6.6 . chap. 8.10 . And Paul speaking to the Romans , after the manner of men , because of the infirmity of their flesh , ch . 6.19 . And his so condescending to speak of several states that he had passed through , was not to encourage any to plead or contend for sin term of life , as most injuriously his Intention is perverted by these Ministers of Sin and Antichrist , whilst that he also shews his Deliverance and Conquest ; but rather that men should believe as he had done , in order to their obtaining perfect Victory and Conquest by the same Power and Spirit of Christ , in which true Believers confide and trust , against all the powers of Darkness , Temptations , and evil Motions , knowing that Christ's Power is stronger than the Devil's power . And it 's for Christ's Power and Work , that we contend both against the Devil , his Work , and Messengers , who dispute and contend for sin term of life , which is their great injury both against Christ , his Work , and People , and that which hath greatly strengthened the hands of evil-doers . And T.V. his telling , That Sin may tyrannize over Believers , and yet not have Dominion , but be in Captivity , in Chains . Who is so blind that cannot see his Contradiction herein , and his silly come off , in instancing that a Slave in Chains may sometimes break loose and Tyrannize ; what then is this Captivity and these Chains under which the sin is held , and how doth it tyrannize , and yet not have dominion , what silly work is this ? But his saying , You must kill or be killed , either you must overcome the world , or the world you : What must they kill but sin and worldly lusts ? Surely this is further than an incompleat Victory , and further than an Enemy breaking loose if he be killed ; for if he be slain , he hath neither power to break loose , lead captive , and much less to tyrannize over Believers . It is strange how T.V. can so far shut his eyes , or endeavour to blind others , as to seek to gloss over these notorious Contradictions , as if they were in unity ; and then lightly to say , Can you forbear smiling at the man , he calleth these Contradictions ? How shallow and ridiculous hath he rendered himself herein ! CHAP. II. In Answer to W. Madox , together with several Contradictions between him , and his Brother T. Vincent ; and their Absurdities manifested and detected ; which shews also their ignorance of the True and Living God , &c. THese men having prostituted themselves to an Idol of their own brains , The Light within ; which is their Christ & Saviour , count the Doctrine of the true God a strange Doctrine . Answ. The Light within which we do own , witness to , and obey , is the Light of Christ , which witnesseth against all sin , against all Idolatry and unrighteousness , and leads us in the Doctrine of the true God , which we receive in the Light , and not mens Traditions and corrupt Doctrines and Inventions , whereby People have been kept in the dark , by such perverse and prejudiced Spirits , as thus blasphemously deem the Light within , an Idol of our own brains ; whereas it is the Light and Life of the Eternal Word , which enlightens every man that cometh into the World ; that we testifie unto , against all the dark opposers and gain-sayers , whose wayes are dark and crooked , as thine W. M. is , who thus falsely and blasphemously hast represented the Light within ( like those that put Light for Darkness , and Darkness for Light. ) And now let the Reader judge , Whether such dark envious Persons ( as thou herein hast shewed they self ) are fit to be Judges in these things of Controversie , about such high matters , touching the Three that bear Record in Heaven ( viz. The Father , The Word , and The Spirit ) when thou in thy earthly sensual wisdom never camest there , neither canst thou till thou countest it loss unto thee , and com'st to loose it , that the Babe's state that enters the Kingdom be known , in which the Light and Life of the Son of God is manifest , which discovers the hidden things of darkness , and reveals the Mysteries of God's Salvation to them that obey it , but not to such as count it an Idol ; and now what may we expect but darkness from such an one as calls the Light within an Idol ; and they that look into thy following work against us , may see the gross darkness thereof , yea , darkness that may be felt . W. M. By their three Persons , you mean the three increated Persons of the ever blessed Trinity , the Father , the Word , and the Holy Ghost . Three increated Persons are thy own words and terms ; but the Father , Word , and Spirit , we really own , and bear witness to , both as mentioned in the Scripture , and as knowing the absolute Testimony and Eternal Power thereof manifested , where that which may be known of God is manifest ( even within ) both in creating , begetting , and quickening us again to God out of death and darkness . And these Three which are One , which bear Record in Heaven , to wit , The Father , the Word , and the Spirit , as I could not own the title of Three distinct and separate Persons to be put upon them , as thy Brother Erroniously did ( being not Scripture-language ) so it was never my intent , nor Principle , to compare them to three Apostles , or finite Creatures , as most falsely and injuriously thou accusest me . But to endeavour to make the People understand both the grosseness and falseness of Tho. Danson's and Tho. Vincent's Principles of three distinct separate Persons in the Deity , you naming each Person God , which renders them Three Gods ( whilst but One God ) by shewing the Consequence of this your Principle ; After I had from Scripture shewed how inseperable the Father and the Son were , and the Oneness of the Father , Word , and the Spirit ; but if I had simply compared them to three Apostles , who were distinct and separate Persons , then had I owned your own Terms and Principle , and then the Controversie had fallen between us : But instead thereof , I am accused for opposing your Doctrine of distinct separate Persons ; and thus you confound your selves in wronging of me ; for were not the three Apostles , Paul , Peter , and John , three distinct separate Persons ( did I ever deny that they were ) how like then to finite Creatures doth your own Doctrine render the Eternal God , his Word , & Spirit ; which to shew , was my end in instancing three Apostles , for we never believed the Eternal God to be like to corruptible man , since we knew any thing of his Divine Power . But T. Danson in his Synopsis , pag. 12. plainly instanceth three Apostles , Peter , James , and John ; as also his instance of David and Solomon for their Trinity , or three Persons in one nature ; Was not this an instance of finite Creatures , and such an indignity put upon God as I never intended : How can such men but blush for charging that on others , which so evidently they are guilty of themselves ? Madox . We call the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , Three Persons , or Hee 's , according as they are held forth in the Scriptures . Answ. Nay , had you stood to Scripture-language , there had not been any Controversie between us therein ; but it would not satisfie you , but you must obtrude your Popish unscripture-like terms and distinctions , or rather worse , in telling not only of distinct but separate Persons , which being plainly refuted from Scripture , you may remember I several times called to T. D. and T. V. to confess their Error , I shewing how inseparable the Father and the Son were , reflecting chiefly on the words separate Persons , which , how you come off about , will appear hereafter . And as for their being Three Hee 's , thou W. M. durst not keep to any Argument from thence ; or to make that any Cause , or Reason , why we must own them to be Three Persons , though here thou seem'st to make the terms equivolent , viz. Three Persons , or Hee 's ; so then it appears that either will serve , if the Three that bear Record in Heaven be but own'd under the Name of Three Hee 's , it will serve instead of Three distinct Persons ; but then , are all Hee 's or Males , Persons ; and all Shee 's or Females , no Persons ? What strange Logick is implyed here ? And where doth the Scripture mention three increated Persons thou tell'st of , are they three distinct increated Persons ? If so , then mayst thou not as well say they are three distinct Infinites , three Eternals , and so three Gods. Where is now the blasphemy , and blasphemer ? And Christ's speaking of another Comforter , which was the Spirit of Truth , Joh. 14.16 . was not another Person distinct from him , for that Spirit was then in him ; neither doth he use those words , for the same Comforter , or Spirit , was in him , and was that divine Life that then spoke in him , when he was personally present with them ; He doth not say , he would send them another Person to Comfort them , but speaks more spiritually , for though they had been Comforted in his outward Presence and Ministry , yet his spiritual Presence was that other Comforter , for ever to abide with them ; for in that Joh. 14.17 . Christ speaking of the Spirit of Truth , or that other Comforter , saith , he that dwelleth with you , shall be in you , vers . 18. I will not leave you comfortless , I will come unto you ; which clearly explains his former words , which to say this Comforter was a Person distinct from Christ , is all one , or as absurd as to say the Spirit or Life that was in him , was a distinct . Person from him , or that he was a Person distinct from himself ; for , I will not leave you comfortless , I will come unto you ; or were it not gross to say , That Christ in his People , is a Person distinct from Christ , or the Eternal Word . And as to thy telling of another Comforter , i. e. Another as to subsistence , or manner of being : What manner of being , and wherein can it differ from Christ's spiritul manner of being ? Had he another manner of being distinct from his own ? Who cannot see the ignorance and confusion of thy blind distinction ? For it appears , that thy distinction of three distinct Persons , subsistences , or manners of being , is attributed to the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , before Christ's Bodily or Personal Appearance in the form of a Servant , thou telling us ( they being of an infinite nature , are three persons ) Is this a good Argument for thy turn ( whereas T.V. saith , Christ , as man , was not fifty years old , pag. 31. ) whilst thou argues from John 14.16 . for their being three distinct persons , subsistences , or manners of being ; For , were they three distinct Comforters of an infinite nature ? Or , three distinct separate persons of an infinite nature ? And was Christ's manner of being in the Flesh of an infinite nature ? Or was he therein a Fourth Person ? Surely when Christ had taken upon him the form of a Servant , and that he said , My Father is greater than I ; ( now W.M. confesseth , that the form of God was his divine nature , which is above the form of a Servant ) and he being in the likeness of sinful flesh , made a little lower than the Angels in respect of his Sufferings , humbling himself to the Death of the Cross. In this manner , and in these capacities he was not declared to be from Eternity ( but as he was equal with God in his Glory , before the World was * ; neither can three coeternal , coequal distinct persons , be argued from thence ; for the Controversie runs higher , as before , they being of an infinite nature , are three increated persons ; he should rather have said , are one divine substance , or being , which is of an infinite nature . But in plain Contradiction these Presbyterians tells us , in their 45. pag. That in the abstract , infiniteness is not aplicable to the subsistence ; what then is become of their three infinite increated persons , or subsistences ? Are they now chang'd from infinite to finite ? What sad work is this ! Where are the Blasphemers now ? Are they not herein found guilty of that , which most unjustly they have charg'd on us , viz. Of that which is plainly derogatory to the Glory of the Infinite God , by going to fasten the limitations of finite Creatures upon him ? For , if there be a subsistence , or personallity , or manner of being ( as he defines subsistence ) in the God-head , which is not infinite ; then something finite is in God which is no less than blasphemy to affirm . And if there be three such distinct subsistences in the relative Property of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , as W. M. saith , pag. 19. to which infiniteness is not aplicable : Then have they denied the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost to be Infinite ; and by this the Reader may see what their unscriptural distinctions of Persons and Subsistences in the Deity amount to , and how most derogatory to the Glory of the Infinite God they are . But the remarkableness of their gross Contradictions is so obvious , that he that runs may read it ; for one while the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , being of an infinite nature , are three distinct persons three increated persons ; which renders them three distinct Infinite and so ▪ Three Gods. Another while infiniteness is not aplicable to them as such , or as subsistences , which renders them under the limitations of finite Creatures . Do you think that the wiser sort , either among Papists , or Protestants , or Church of England , own these men's management of this matter ; or will their Work stand them in any stead , or be to the advancement of the Christian Faith in other Nations ? If these men should go into Turkey , and also among the Indians , and pretend to Preach the everlasting God , or the Father , the Word , and Spirit , under such Names , Terms , and Distinctions , as being three distinct and separate persons , or subsistences , to which infiniteness is not aplicable ; what would be the effect and consequence of such Preachings do you think ? Would it not bring a reproach upon the Name and Profession of Christianity , and render the Christians as believing and expecting Salvation from finite Persons , or Creatures ? Or else , if they should Preach them to be three distinct or separate Persons , as being of an infinite nature , might not they reasonably conclude that they were Preaching three Gods ? Would not this kind of Preaching more stumble the Jewes and Turks from believing in Christ , than ever ; and the more strengthen the Heathen in their Idolatrous Imaginations ( especially whilst they oppose the Light within as an Idol ) for whilst a Doctrine is Preached implying three Gods , may they not suppose many more ? As also , how have many ignorant People , in the time of Darkness , been begotten into vain Imaginations touching the God-head , by such Doctrine aforesaid ( contrary to Scripture-language ) as to think God to be like unto a Man , or Person ; whereas he is a Spirit , he is Invisible , even that Eternal Word , or Spirit , which made all things , and Christ is the Image of the Invisible God , not divided nor separate from him whose Image he is * . And though in the World there are Gods many , and Lords many , yet to us there is but One God , the Father , of whom are all things , and we in him , and One Lord Jesus Christ , by whom are all things , and we by him , 1 Cor. 8.6 . So that it was never any Design , or Plot of ours , to endeavour to prejudice the minds of any against the Deity of Christ , and the Holy Ghost , as falsely and blasphemously we are accused by this our prejudiced Opposer . W. M. What you mean by separate , I know not ; if you mean so separate as to destroy the unity and simplicity of the divine Essence , I own no such separation ; if you take it to be all one with distinct , then it was no begging the Question . And in their 39. pag. it 's said , viz. The word Separate Person I disown any further then we may conceive it to signifie no more then dictinct . Answ. It appears then , that T. D. and their using the word separate persons , was to explain their meaning of distinct persons , for it was used after distinct , viz. distinct and separate persons ; which word separate persons , they know I chiefly reflected upon at the Dispute , I proving the contrary from Scripture , viz. both the Oneness and Inseparability of the Father , Word , and Spirit ; but seeing they own no such separation as to destroy the Unity of the Divine Essence , why did they make use of the word Separate at all in the case , telling us , the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , are three distinct and separate persons , which they confess are of one divine Essence . Now they disown separate any otherwise then it signifies distinct ; but they should not have own'd it at all in this case . Is it not sad Doctrine that supposeth any Separation , Finiteness , or Limitation , in this Divine Being ? But if the separation relate to the Personallity , or their distinctions of persons , and not to the Essence , then doth not this tend to divide God , or to separate Father , Son , and Spirit , who are in each other , and how then are they three distinct , coeternal , coessential , coequal Persons ? Or how are they three distinct increated persons of an infinite nature , as before ? but another while not infinite in the Personality ; what wonderful confusion and gross contradictions are here ! and what strange boldness is it for men , so dark in their understandings , discomposed in their minds , confused and incongruent in their Principles , thus ignorantly to attempt to define or demonstrate the infinite Power , or God-head , which is out of their sight , and beyond their earthly capacities , who are so ignorant of God who is Light ; they count the Light within an Idol of our own brains , as W. M. hath blasphemously done ; whereas it is the Light by which God hath shined in our hearts , to give us the knowledge of his Glory , in the face of Christ , 2 Cor. 4. W.M. Read also Job 35.10 . God thy Makers . Heb. consult Mr. Carril on the place . Eccles. 12.1 . Remember thy Creators , &c. Isa. 54.5 . Thy Makers is thy Husband ; in all which Texts , the Trinity of Persons is denoted by words of the plural number . Answ. Upon which , I query , is the distinction of three Persons derived from three Makers , or three Creators ? Or dare they say , That the Father , Word , and Spirit , are three distinct , severed , or separate Creators , and doth not this bespeak three Gods ? And what sense is it to say , thy Makers [ is ] thy Husband ? from Isa. 54.5 . where it is said , Thy Maker is thine Husband , the Lord of Hosts is his Name ; Is not this truly rendered ? See Pagnine's Versions , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Osiik ; i. e. factor tnus . It 's neither sunt ( nor est ) factores tui : And Eccles. 12.1 . it's 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Borecha Creatoris tui , in singular ; it 's not Creatorum tuorum . And Job 35.10 . it 's Osai , factor meus ; not factores mei . But whilst one God and one Lord is confessed , how is it consistent that a plurality of severed Persons be in him as Makers , Creators , &c. What ground have we to believe either Carryl or Madox herein , more than Pagn . and our English Translation , with many others . And notwithstanding this great stir they have made with their distinctions of separate persons , incommunicable properties , &c. yet W. M. hath confest , That the Names , Properties , or Attributes , Works and Worship of God , are frequently in Scripture given to each of these Three Persons , so that they are one and the same perfect and infinite Essence , one God by Nature , &c. ( but if he should distinguish personal Attributes from Attributes of God , I ask what they are if not of God ) which if so , how is infiniteness not applicable to them , nor ascribed to them ? And how have you gone with your vain unscriptural distinctions to darken Counsel , to darken Scripture , to darken the minds of People by words without knowledge , thereby going to demonstrate that to others , which you cannot clear to your selves by demonstration ; As T. V. in his 26 pag. saith of the Trinity , touching which he would have us Assent unto your terms and traditional distinctions upon Divine Authority , which he cannot demonstrate by reason . But how then shall we receive your bare Assertions upon Divine Authority , when we have neither Scripture , nor Reason , nor yet any immediate Revelation from you for them , must we pinn our Faith upon your sleeves ? or will you supply the places of so many Popes , by Imposing an implicit Faith in those matters which you cannot demonstrate , nor clear to your selves : which then , how can you clear them to others ? Which if this be the course you take to convince gain-sayers of your Doctrine , you might have spared a great deal of labour in going about so confusedly to demonstrate your case to us , and only have laid down your Doctrine of three distinct separate Persons in the Deity , to which infiniteness is not ascribed as you have said in pag. 45. And so you might as well have said , That we T.V. W.M. and T.D. do affirm it , and therefore you must believe it , or otherwise you are blasphemous Hereticks , and so damned . But we must have better ground for our Faith , and a better Authority than Affirmations , Revilings , and Threatnings of men , that are untaught themselves in those things which they presume to teach others . W. M. I called them three Hee 's , to try * if you would own the Deity of Christ , and the Holy Ghost , under any title . As the subject of this Tryal is very mean and weak ( to wit ) the calling them three Hee 's to prove the Deity ; so his trying of us hereby , was altogether groundless , since that we never disowned the Deity of Christ , or Holy Ghost , as falsely and injuriously is insinuated against us . And since that three Hee 's will now serve instead of Persons , ( he saying they are three Persons , or three Hee 's ) to prove the Deity of Father , Son , and Holy Ghost : Why have they made such a pudder for their distinctions of Persons ? But would it be a strong Reason to induce Infidels to the belief of the Deity of each , because they are three Hee 's as he saith ; for , are all Hee 's either God , ( or yet Persons ) or Divine ? But I need say little to the shallowness of this Work ; Let the ingenious Reader judge of it . But when he thinks he mends the matter , by calling them three divine Hee 's , his intent is , that the Father is called Hee , the Son is Hee , the Spirit Hee ; which neither proves them three separate , nor incommunicable Persons , distinct subsistences , or bottoms ; whilst both the Father 's a Spirit , the Lord is that Spirit , Christ a quickening Spirit ; all inseparable . W. M. You by refusing to call them Three Divine Hee 's , have made it manifest , that your Quarrel is not with the word Person , as some then apprehended ; but with the Doctrine or Fundamental Truth , expressed by the three Persons , viz. the Modal Distinction , and Essential Vnion ; or Oneness of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost . Answ. It 's manifest , that some of the Hearers that were present at our Debating this matter , had a better apprehension and understanding of us than you prejudiced Teachers and Opposers had : for some of them apprehended that we opposed your unscriptural terms and words put upon the Deity , and not that we opposed either the Divinity or Union of Father , Son , or Holy Ghost ; neither did we in the least go to quarrel with any Fundamental Truth , as most grosly and slanderously we are accused and misrepresented by thee W.M. who hast shewed thy self ( so far from either Truth , Moderation , or Reasonableness in this matter ) as one swallowed up with Envie and Prejudice : And thy taking for granted , that thy Model distinction and terms , are Fundamental Truth , and joyning them with the Oneness of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , is but a begging the Question , and presumption in thee , especially whilst by your vain Philosophy some of you have either rendered them as Three Gods , or denied them to be Infinite , as in pag. 45. Yea , and it was evident to many , * That we found fault with your mis-calling and mis-representing the Father , the Word , and Spirit ; and never in the least opposed nor questioned their being Three such as mentioned in Scripture , viz. The Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , but there openly confessed to the Fundamental Truth of them in Scripture terms . And when you fell into your needless Questions , and Philosophick terms of incommunicabl properties , subsistences , &c. I ( to bring the matter to be more obvious to the People , to shorten and mittigate the Controversie , and to abate your heat ) did tell you , That if you meant by incommunity of properties , the Fathers begetting the Son , and the Spirits being sent ; state your Question so , in plain English , Whether the Son was begotten , and the Spirit sent of the Father , and it would quickly end the Controversie . But nothing would serve you , but an Answer to your vain babling and School-terms , with such a limitation as Aye or No ; as if the Scripture terms and expressions were in this to be waved and slighted as insufficient , and your confusion , vain ●hilosophy , and deceit , must be set up above the Scriptures of Truth , though you profess them to be your Rule , at other times But here in plain Contradiction , you have gone about to obscure Divine Mysteries under your Traditional terms of Heathenish Metaphysicks , and laid such a stress upon them , as if all were to be deem'd Blasphemers and Hereticks , and so to be damned , that cannot confess , own , and be tyed up to your terms , nice and confused distinctions , which you presumptuously put upon the Father , Word , & Spirit . And as for W. M. his accusing us with rejecting the Son , and so the Father . It is a gross slander , as many more of his accusations are ; and never was it in our Intention nor Doctrine so to do , whilst the Oneness of Father , Son , and Spirit , we really confess to , but disown your blind distinctions , which deny them Infiniteness . And as for W. M. his so much talk of three Hee 's , each of which ( he saith ) is by nature God : We do not read in Scripture , that God is called three Hee 's , or three distinct Hee 's ; and therefore three distinct separate Persons ( indeed Children in the Accidence call Hee the third Person singular ) But that both the Father and Son speaking of themselves , use the word Hee , as I am Hee ; and he that is with you , shall be in you ; Christ speaking of his own manifestation ( which was that other Comforter ) I will not leave you comfortless , I will come unto you . But each of these three Hee 's he tells of , he hath told us is by nature God ; so then they are One , as God , the Word , and Spirit , are . And as to his charge of Ignorance of Philosophy about Subsistence , which he sayes , is not a form of a Hee , but the manner of his being . His Charge of Ignorance , of his kind of Philosophy , and such nice distinctions ( as this between manner and form ) we can easily bear , and pass by , and leave them to feed upon it , who will choose such chaff for their food , knowing that the knowledge of God and Jesus Christ , consists not in such trifles . W.M. The form of God the Father is his Divine Nature , but his Subsistence is his manner of being in the relative Property of the Father ; and so he speaks of the Form and Subsistence of the Son and Holy Ghost ( as his terms of them are . ) Now touching these distinct Subsistences , or manners of being , wherein stands their Model , distinction of Three distinct Personalities , to which they say , in pag. 45. * That infiniteness is not applicable , and that there be three distinct Personallities , unto which infiniteness is not ascribed : Here they have given People to understand what their meaning is about their three distinct Subsistences , or Personallities , that they are not Infinite . What then ! Is the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit , Finite ? What gross darkness is this ? Let the impartial Reader judge , whether we have not sufficient ground and cause to oppose them and their vain Philosophy in this so high a matter , and whether herein their Doctrine doth not blasphemously oppose the Divinity of Father , Son , and Spirit ; and they go about to eclipse ( and detract from ) the Glory of the infinite God-head , whilst at other times , in contradiction , they confess each to be God , and tell of the Eternal Son of God , and say , That in the concret , every subsistent is infinite , but not the subsistance or personallity in the abstract . What darkness is here ? Is God divided , or Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , separate or abstract from their Essences ? and where then is this finite personallity so much contended for ? Is it in God , yea or nay ; or relating to his Divine Being , or Substance ? But if these distinct personallities or subsistances , which they say are not infinite , be the relative Properties of the Father , Son , and Spirit , then I ask , Hath not this Doctrine denied both Father , Son , and Holy Spirit , to be infinite ? Let the unbyassed Readers judge . And yet in Confutation of themselves again , there 's God the Father the first Person , God the Son , a Person distinct from him ; God the Holy Ghost , a Person proceeding from both . How to make sense of these three distinctions , comparing them together , or how to make them hang together without rendering them Three Gods , and not only so , but such as are not Infinite , doth not yet appear to me . And whether my comparison of not understanding Paul , Peter , and John , could be three Persons ( each of them an Apostle ) and yet all but one Apostle , was not suitable to detect these mens unscriptural Doctrines and Distinctions , and to shew the absurdity of the consequences thereof , which whilst this railing angry man , W. Madox , doth so often take it as a comparing the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , to three Apostles ; herein he hath grossely wronged and abused me , and his own understanding . And his Charge of Blasphemy against me ( for that he intimates that I should say ) That God is but equal with man. I return back upon him as a most malicious horrid slander , and an apparent Lye against me . It was never my intent nor saying ; for if I had said , That God is but equal with man , or compared the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost to three Apostles , then had I and these ridgid Presbyterians accorded nearer than we did , for then had I owned their Dostrine and terms of three distinct and separate persons in the God-head , which are not infinite ; which I can never own , nor believe , nor depend upon any God , or thing , which is finite , for Salvation . Besides , I never denied finite man , nor three distinct Apostles ( as Paul , Peter , and John ) to be distinct and separate Persons ; so if I had really compared the Deity to such , we had not differed about the distinction of separate Persons , or finite subsistances in the God-head , which is no less than Blasphemy . But then , how poorly , maliciously , and falsely this W. M. comes off in so positively deeming their Doctrine and terms in these matters , to be Scripture Truth ; and charging us with designing to blast and overthrow the Deity of Christ , and the Holy Ghost ; upon which , * Blasphemers , and blasphemy , and damnable speeches , are hideously cast upon us , but most unjustly , and falsely ; for no such design ever had we , as either to blast or over-throw the Deity of Christ , or Holy Spirit , we having openly professed and declared the contrary , both in words and writings . As also his accusing us with boldly spitting in the face of God , is a gross and malicious slander , and a presumptuous taking for granted , that our opposing their corrupt unscriptural distinctions , and vain babling , was a spitting in the face of God ; as if we must believe all what these men say , in this matter , to be as true as God is , and his Glory to be so deeply concern'd in their vain Philosophy : Judge whether they ' herein are competent Disputants , yea or nay ? and whether these our opposers , or we , have compared God , or the Father , Son , and Spirit , to men ; let the Reader judge by what follows . In their Answer to that Argument of W. P's , viz. The Divine Persons are either finite , or infinite ; if finite , then something finite is in God ; if infinite , then there would be three distinct infinites , and consequently three distinct Gods : thus far W. P. Touching which , after they have denied infiniteness to be applicable or ascribed to them ( as to their subsistences or personallities , as they call them , they bring a comparison of the subsistance of a man , pag. 46. saying , It would be improper to ascribe the property that belong to him , unto his subsistence , to say that his subsistance in the abstract is either a learned or unlearned subsistence , a great one or a small one , a white one or a black one * . What vain babling , and a blind instance is here ) And so they say , It is improper to say , that either of the Persons , in regard of the personallity or subsistence , are finitie , or infinite ; but in regard of their Essence in the concrete , are infinite . Now the Reader at length may see what 's become of their distinctions of three distinct subsistences , or persons in the God-head , or Divine Essence , wherein they having here undertaken to demonstrate that which Reason cannot demonstrate to them , nor they clear to themselves by demonstration , as in pag. 26. they have run themselves as into a Wood and Labyrinth , as persons bewildered and confounded ; so as now the subsistences or distinct persons in the Deity , they so much contend for , are such as are neither learned nor unlearned , neither great nor small , neither finite nor infinite ; what are they then ? what Gods are they that these men would have us believe in ? before they were not infinite , now neither finite nor infinite . * What grosse Confusion and Contradiction is here ; for if not infinite , then finite ; but the God whom we serve and believe in is infinite , the only Wise God , and nothing relating to him , or his , being finite . Howbeit since these our Opposers are contending for that which they cannot by Reason demonstrate , nor clear to themselves , pag. 26. It is very unreasonable in them to Impose it upon others to believe , without either reason or demonstration , or to pronounce them Blasphemers who cannot own their Doctrine and distinctions therein , to be according to the Scriptures , whilst they cannot clear them ( by Reason ) to themselves , but both a mis-calling , and grossely mis-representing of Father , Son , and Holy Spirit , as one while with being not infinite , another while neither finite nor infinite ; instancing in the case the subsistence of a man , which they say is neither learned nor an unlearned one * . They have accused W.P. with Blasphemy , who never denied the infiniteness of either Father , Word , or Spirit ; but what greater Blasphemy can there be than their own ? And now let the indifferent Reader judge what effect this kind of their vain babling would have in the minds of an Auditory , if thus , God should be Preached in their blind confused terms ; and if one of them should exhort People to believe in a Trinity of separate persons or subsistences , which are infinite in the concrete , but not infinite in the personallity , or subsistence in the abstract : Another while they are neither finite nor infinite ; and what they are they cannot tell ; for , by reason they cannot clear this their Mystery to themselves ; Another while they are three Hee 's that People must believe in , and therefore three persons or subsistances with incommunicable properties , by all which they go to demonstrate the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , who are infinite in the Essence , but not in their Personallities : They say another while , neither finite nor infinite as they say , what effect would this kind of Preaching have with People do you think ! and where ever did the Apostles , and true Ministers of God Preach in this manner , or allow of such Philosophy in Preaching the Mysteries of God ? Nay , did they not Preach in the simplicity of the Gospel , and Exhort in simplicity , as of the Abilitiy that God gave ? And did not Paul absolutely forbid such Philosophy and vain deceipt ? And to avoid opposition of Science , falsly so called , Coll. 2.8 . 1 Tim. 6.20 . And are there not words sufficient in the Scriptures of Truth , to Preach God and Christ in , according to the plainness and simplicity thereof ; but men pretending to be his Ministers , and Scripture their Rule , must thus run themselves into confusion and darkness by Humane Inventions and Traditions both of words , terms , and blind distinctions of man's fallen wisom , which neither knows God , nor can rightly speak of him , but hath obscured the Glory of his Appearance from very many ; but the Light is risen , and the Day dawned , which hath not only discovered , but will expel those thick Mists and Clouds of mens Inventions , that the simple may come to be undeceived and unvailed , and so be delivered from such as these confussed Babel builders that have made a prey upon them . CHAP. III. Something farther Observed , in Answer to Tho. Vincent . NOw let us a little observe some Passages and Arguments in Tho. Vincent's Work ; For their distinctions about Trinity of Persons ( as they call them ) distinguished one from another by incommunicable personal properties . But such kind of distinctions and terms he hath not learned from Scriptures , but from humane Inventions ; by which they have darkned the simplicity of Truth ; as also he hath appeared as one in self-contradiction , when he saith , That one should be in another ; the first should be in the second , and the second in the first , and both in the third , and all one and the same individual Essence . Now if they be in each other , they are not separate Persons as at the Dispute was affirmed ; and if one be in another , where are the personal incommucicable properties , wherein they are not Infinite as they have told us ? Is there finiteness in each person , and yet each person God ; what gross darkness and blasphemy is this ? But then to mend the matter , T. V. tells us , This is such a Mystery as doth exceed the weak and narrow understandings of most inlightned and clear sighted Christians fully to comprehend ; Some by gazing too long upon the Sun , become blind . Surely then , if it be such a Mystery as exceeds the understanding of the clear sighted , it must needs exceed the dark understanding of T. V. and his Brethren ; And seeing , as appears , he was conscious to himself of his own dimness or darkness herein as by what follows ; also , he should have let it alone and not troubled his head with things beyond his reach , for he has confounded and marr'd his cause , and not at all mended nor cleared it ; but if he hath assayed to demonstrate this Mystery , as he calls it , as one more clear sighted than the most inlightned , his Work doth manifest the contrary ; And that God cannot represent himself otherwise than he is ; It 's true : but where doth he thus represent himself as these men do , with such invented terms , vain tautologies , and confusion ? We do not read such in all the Scriptures of Truth : howbeit T. V. takes the boldness to Assert his Doctrine herein to be of Divine Authority , and to be the Truth of God revealed in his Word ; and that if the Scriptures have revealed that there are Three distinct Persons in one Divine Essence , it is a certain Truth , &c. This is sooner said , than proved ; if that Word of God , and Scripture could be produced that doth so reveal their Doctrine , and say , there are three distinct Persons in one Divine Essence : Produce us such a Scripture among all the Writings of the Holy men of God ( in all the Bible ) and it shall end the Controversie ; otherwise let T. V. be ashamed of his Asserting it to be revealed in the Word of God. And of his saying that in his Sylogism , pag. 13. There is not a word but what is to be found in the Scripture ; whereas neither the matter , manner , nor expressions of his Arguments are to be found in Scripture . As for Instance his Argument ; Pag. 13. The Father , the Word , and the Holy Ghost , are either three Substances , or three Manifestations , or three Operations , or three Persons , or something else ; but they are not three Substances , nor three Manifestations , nor three Operations , nor any thing else ; therefore they are three Persons . To the first part ; Indeed they must be something ; to the Minor , if they be neither three Substances , Manifestations , &c. nor any thing else , this renders them nothing , and contradicts both the Major and Conclusion where they are something else , which is three Persons ( he saith ) so the tenour of his Argument runs thus , they are something ; but they are nothing ( he meant nothing else but three Persons ) therefore they are three Persons . It would have held better thus , but against himself , If the Father , the Word , and Spirit , be not three distinct Substances , then not three distinct Persons ; but they are not three distinct Substances , Ergo. unless he can shew us a distinct person without its own substance : But his Brother T.D. saith , A person is rationalis naturae individua , substantia , an individual substance , of a rational nature ; see how flatly T.D. and T.V. have Contradicted one another herein ; one affirming they are three Persons , because not three Substances ; the other , That a person is an individual substance : But if T. V. by saying , There is not a word in his Syllogism , but what is to be found in Scripture ; intends that every word particularly is to be found in Scripture ; the word Substance , the word Manifestation , Operation , Person , &c. abstractively , what proves this of his matter ? for the contrary may as well be asserted from bare words ; I never met with more silly kind of Arguing before : And if so be his other Argument from the Property of the Father to beget , of the Son to be begotten , of the Holy Ghost to proceed from them both , &c. be an Argument sufficient to prove Three distinct Persons in the God-head , with three incommunicable Properties , &c. Then doth it not follow as well , That every spiritual perfect Gift that proceeds from God to man ; must needs be a Person , and then so many Gifts , or manifold Graces as proceed from him ( or are begotten by him ) are so many Persons in him , which would be numerous indeed , and amount to a Plurallity of Trinities ; for the Spitit is given variously , and in divers Manifestations , and the graces & gift of God are many and manifold ; but the shallowness of this mans arguing , who is it cannot see ? besides that Christ being the express Image of the Fathers substance , and the Spirit the Life of both ; it 's neither scriptural nor reasonable to say that the Image and Life of One and the same thing , should be either Two distinct and separate Persons from it , or from their own substance ; so that still it follows , that if the Three bearing Record in Heaven , be One divine substance , and not Three substances ; then not Three distinct or separate Persons : As also , God is called both the Word and Spirit . Farther , Mark the manner of T. V. his expressing his Doctrine , viz. The Trinity of Persons in the Unity of the Divine Essence , and the Unity of the Divine Essenee in the Trinity of Persons , that three should be one , and that one should be three ; that three should be distinguished but not divided , that one should not be another ; the first should not be the second , nor the second the third , nor the second or third the first ; and yet the first second and third the same that the first should be in the second , and the second in the first , and both first and second in the third . Thus far T.V. for his separate persons . Reader , Do but mark his Jigg here , and what a whirling he has made like one distempered ; but where is his Scripture for all this ? see how he manages it , pag. 26. he saith , Reason it may be will leave us in our search after the Deity in the Trinity , and the Trinity , &c. but where Reason faileth , Faith must supply its room : And then tells us of Mysteries which Reason cannot demonstrate to us , and that in this Mystery of the Trinity we must Exercise our Faith , though we cannot clear it to our selves by demonstration , &c. But sure whilst Reason hath so much failed T. V. and his Brethren in this matter , that thereby they cannot clear it to themselves by demonstration , it s very strange and unreasonable they should make such a stir in the dark , as they have done , to Impose it on the Faith of others ; and what tends this to , but to force People to Exercise an implicite Faith , whilst they have neither Scripture , Reason , Demonstration , nor Revelation ( for that 's ceased they say ) to ground a Faith upon in this matter , as he argues , viz. If the Divine Essence , or God head , can be but One , and the Father is God , the Son God , the Holy Ghost God , and they three distinct Subsistents , or Persons , then they are three distinct Subsistents or Persons , in the same single Divine Essence , but the Essence can be but One , and the Father is God , the Son God , &c. and they are three distinct Subsistents or Persons ; therefore there are three distinct Subsistents , or Persons . Let the moderate Readers but mark this Argument , and whether it carries any matter or weight of any proof or Argumentation along with it any more than an Empty Assertion : ( Tautologies ) begging the Question in the sequel of the Major , and so along still , taking the matter in Controversie for granted , which cannot be without better proof , and more convincing Arguments than T.V. hath patched up and produced ; But as for the beginning of his Argument , That the Divine Essence , or God-head , can be but One , and this in each of the Three , we never denied ; and T. V. has confessed it is not denied by us , pag. 28. But as for the rest of his Argument , it runs in the substance of it thus ; If they be three distinct subsistents or persons , then there are three distinct subsistents or persons ; But they are three distinct subsistents , therefore , &c. Or , if they be so , then they are so ; but they are so , therefore they are so . I shall not need to say much , to shew what mean Logick this is , since it is from a Person whom Reason has so far failed , that he can neither clear nor demonstrate that to himself , which thus pitifully he has assayed to demonstrate to others : And so let the Readers judge if he be not such an one as he tells of , that by attempting to bring that Mystery to the Modal of his Reason , hath lost the sight , and sunk into grosse Apprehensions . And as for his fierce Railing against W. P. and calling him , wretched Blasphemer , accusing him with denying that the Lord Jesus Christ is God , and with denying the Divinity of Christ and Holy Ghost , and with thrusting the Lord Jesus Christ off from the Throne of his God-head , &c. I have not yet perceived any strength or weight of Argument from either T.V. or his Brethren , that has convicted W. P. as guilty herein ; but rather the more they strive with him , and thus grossely revile him , and rail against him , the more their Folly , Confusion , and Weakness appears : And indeed if W. P. be supposed to be so grossely Erroneous as he is represented , it must be more Competent Antagonists than T. V. or such Railers as he , that must Convince him : But his shewing the absurdity of T.V. his Doctrines , and both unscriptural and unreasonable Distinctions ; and his denyal thereof , is neither a denyal of the Son , nor Spirit , nor the Divinity of either ; but the apparent falseness of these railing and slanderous Accusations before , with the Consequences thereof against W. P. in this thing , touching the Divinity of Christ , &c. appears in his own Book , pag. 14 Of Christ being the only God , and the Divine Nature being inseparable to each ( whom they call ) Person , have the whole Divine Nature , the Son in the Father , and the Spirit in the Son , unless the God-head be as incommunicable to the Person ( so called ) as they are reported to be among themselves , saith W.P. Doth not W.P. herein own the Divinity of Christ and Holy Spirit , let the indifferent judge how T.V. has wronged him . And then W. P. his Admonition , pag. 15. saith , Apply thy mind unto the Light and Grace which brings Salvation ; that by obedience thereunto , those mists Tradition hath cast before thy eyes , may be expel'd , and thou receive a certain knowledge of that one God , whom to know is Life Eternal , not to be a divided , but ONE pure , intire , and eternal Being ; who in the fulness of time sent forth his Son , as the true Light which enlightneth every man ; that whosoever followed him ( the Light ) might be translated from the dark Notions , and vain Conversations of men , to this Holy Light , in which onely sound Judgment and eternal Life are obtainable ; ( he ) testified the virtue of it , and has communicated unto all such a proportion , as may enable them to follow his Example . [ thus far W.P. ] Now mark , whether herein he has not owned the Divinity of the Son , when thus plainly he hath confessed to his Light , both as to its Extent and Virtue . And so as for T. V. his railing against us so bitterly , calling us , black-mouth'd Blasphemers ; accusing W. P. with Heathenism , abominableness , foulness ; falsely comparing him to Arius &c. These are but mean Arguments to Convince W. P. and doth but shew the malice and rancor of T. Vincent's Spirit ; and what an implacable persecuting Spirit appears among these Presbyterian Priests ? What cruel work would they make if they had power in their hands to persecute such as cannot be tyed up to their narrow Spirits and Principles , which is the same old persecuting Spirit that cryed for Fire and Faggot , after it put these names , Blasphemer and Hereticks , upon the Martyrs : And indeed , if any should be so disingenious and drowned in their understandings by prejudice , as to think that the Absurdities that W. P. draws from his Adversaries Principles , are his own ; they may be apt to charge him with Blasphemy , and what not , though falsely : But farther , how evidently hath W.P. in his 18 , 19 , 21 pag. owned and confessed Christ the Son of God , and his Light , and Grace , both for Remission of sins , Reconciliation , Salvation of men , Life Eternal ; and as he is the only begotten of the Father , the Gift and Expression of Eternal Love for Salvation ; Now can any thing have ( or work ) these Effects that is not Divine ? Is not Christ's Divinity , Virtue , Divine Light and Power , plainly confest by W.P. herein , as also to his being God , pag. 21. How grossely have these angry Presbyterians wronged him in so hidiously charging the contrary upon him ; and are not they rather justly chargeable herein , with denying the Divinity of Christ , in setting so slight by his Light in every man , as they have done , one calling it an Idol ; another Cautioning not to follow its guidance ; But the Divinity of Christ , and the Honour due to him , far be it from us to deny , as these men have done ; and the Scripture-instances in that case , we both know and own , Joh. 3.13 . Rom. 9.5 . Phil. 2.6 . Heb. 1.8 . Joh. 2.17 . Heb. 1.3 . Joh. 14.1 . Phil. 2.10 . Col. 1.16 , 17. Joh. 8.58 . But we are not convinced , that mens invented distinctions put upon Christ , does add any thing to his Honour , but rather diminish from it . And where in pag. 31. it is said , In regard of his humane Nature , the Jewes spoke true , Thou art not yet fifty years old ; as Man , he was a Son of Abraham , and born many generations after him , &c. Now I ask if he was not a Person as Man , and so born ? And if there were three Coeternal Persons before , whether this doth not make a fourth ? For as he was not fifty years old , this had not reference to his Divine Nature , as is confessed ; But then , where in pag. 36. The generation of the Son must be Eternal , the Son being so : ( they say ) How is his Personallity , with reference to his being begotten , denyed to be Infinite ? in pag. 45. What gross and apparent Contradictions are these ? And as to his instance , Matt. 3.16 , 17. how that Jesus went up out of the Water , and the Spirit descended like a Dove , and lo a Voice from Heaven , to prove a distinction of all the Three Persons ; the Son was cloathed in Flesh , the Spirit in the shape of a Dove , the Father was in the Voice , he saith , &c. Let the Reader but mark how far short of proving his Distinction , this instance is : Surely he will not say , That the Son was cloathed in Flesh from Eternity , nor the Spirit in a bodily shape like a Dove from Eternity ; for if their Personallities did consist in these visible Appearances , how were they Coeternal , Coessential , Coequal with God , & c ? And surely Personallity doth not consist in the shape of a Dove , neither do we read of the Person of a Dove , besides the Spirits appearing in a bodily shape like a Dove , doth not prove that the Spirit was a distinct or separate Person from Jesus , for he had the Spirit in him , and was not separate from the Spirit , though that appearance like a Dove , was for a Confirmation to John's belief of him , John 1.32 , 33. T.V. ( Isa. 6.3 . ) Holy , holy , holy , is the Lord of Hosts : the three Holies , signifies the three persons ; the Lord of Hosts , the One God. I must confess I never heard this Argument before ; if each Holy signifie a Person , how then are they spoken to the One God ? And if so many Holies as are given in praise to him , do signifie so many distinct Persons in him , then they will amount to a great many Trinities ; for it is said , Rev. 4.8 . They rest not day nor night , saying , Holy , holy , holy , Lord God Almighty , &c. Now if all the Holies they give day and night to him , be so many Persons , then they will amount to Persons ad infinitum ; but the absurdity of this Argument who cannot but see ? As also his Argument from the distinct Names , is little better ; for God is denominated under many Names more than Three ; And also his arguing from John 14 , 15 , & 16. chap. from personal Acts , as he calls them , as sending the Comforter , his speaking and guiding , &c. Where doth the Scripture call them Personal Acts ? Were they not Spiritual Acts of the Divine Spirit and Power of God ? And was there any Act but what was brought forth in time ? And was the Father's begetting the Son a Personal Act ? ( however was it not an Act in time ) if so , how sayes T. V. That the Generation of the Son must be Eternal ? What distracted confused work is here ! And as to that Cavil in pag. 40. at the word ONE , as not being in the Hebrew , in all those Scriptures , Isa. 40.25 . chap. 48.17 . Psal. 71.22 . where Holy One is mentioned in the English , which to Cavil at , shews little prudence ; whilst Holy One , and the Lord being One , and the Only Wise God , is often mentioned elsewhere ; see Zac. 14.9 . which W. P. quotes , is it not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Jehovah echad ushemo echad : i. e. Dominus unus & nomen , Ejus unum , One Lord , and his Name One. And see Deut. 6.4 . how its 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Jehovah echad One Lord ; but where the word Echad is not expressed , whether it be not understood ? Besides , T. V. himself , pag. 33. useth these words , The Lord of Hosts the One God : so that he might have spared his Contradictory Cavil about it ; And if their distinctions be in regard of the Personallity and not of the Essence , then I ask , Are they three Persons both distinct among themselves , and also distinct from the Essence or Being of God ? and so not infinite ; or neither finite nor infinite , as most Absurdly and Contradictorily is laid down in their 44 , 45 , 46 , pages , as before , has been mentioned . And as to W. P. his Cloudy Brain Conceptions ( as it 's called ) which is so difficult to find out ( as they say ) and his Phrases so uncouth , and his Reasonings so odly joynted together : Indeed , neither T. V. nor T. D. have shewen any such Brightness , nor strength of Argument as to expel or drive away these cloudy Conceptions ; if they be such , it must be another thing that must unvail him , and overthrow what he hath said , than their grosse Confusion , and many apparent Contradictions , which I am certain that W. P. is so far unvail'd , as to have a sight and discovery of , though this dark ridged Presbyterian Spirit hath sought by Persecution , false Reports , and Slanders , to vail and obscure both him and others , in whom any degree , breakings forth , or glimerings of true Light have appeared ; where they could not do it by slandering , grossely villifying , and traducing them , they would endeavour to bring Persecution , and Cruelty , and outward Restraint upon them , to their Power . And as for their taxing W.P. for instancing Irenaeus , Justin Martyr , Tertullian , Origen , Theophil . and others , as appearing forreign to the matter in Controversie , &c. they telling us , The Doctrine of the Trinity is plainly enough to be gathered from several passages in Irenaeus lib. 1. ch . 2. Ecclesia accipit fidem quae est in unum Deum Patrem Omnipotentem & in unum Christum filium Dei incarnatum & in spiritum Sanctum qui per Prophetas praedicavit : And then our Opposers ask , Do not these words hold forth a distinction of those three persons ? To which I say , However he gathers or imagines such a distinction of their being three Persons , he does but beg the Question in calling them three Persons , which their words no not prove , nor so call them ; but God the Father Omnipotent , Christ the Son of God , and the Holy Ghost ( in whom the Faith of the Church is ) Neither do the latter words prove any thing for this purpose , which mention the God of all things , making and governing all things by his word and Spirit : If he had asserted no otherwise herein then Irenaeus hath done , there had not been this Controversie between us , and them . And as for the rest of the Authors they mention , I do not find that they called them three distinct separate persons ( as T. D. did ) in all these Passages mentioned and quoted by them ; And it s known that W.P. his Controversie was principally against them for unscriptural Doctrine of the God-head subsisting in three distinct and separate persons ; which also their own Instance of Theophil . lib. 1. Com. in Evang. doth contradict , viz. Margarita pretiosa est Sancta Trinitas quae dividi non potest nam in unitate consistit ; the Holy Trinity is a precious Jewel , which cannot be divided , because it consisteth in Unity : To which I say then , the Glorious Three that bear Record in Heaven , are not three separate Persons ; howbeit we are not bound to believe the determinations of Fathers and Councils any farther than they accord with the pure Language of Scripture . And whereas T.V. and his Brethren , supposing that they have detected the weakness and absurdity of W. P ; thereupon go to Caution People , Not to follow the guidance of the Light , which W. P. ( truly ) saith is communicated unto all , and forsake the true Light of the Word and Spirit , which alone can guide men into all truth . This is a groundless Caution , and false as it reflects upon the Light ; for suppose W.P. were in Weakness as they say , yet the Light is not the cause thereof ; however his Weakness ( as they call it ) hath brought forth much of their Folly ; for the Light which is communicated unto all , which People should follow the Guidance of , is the Light of Christ , which inlightens every man coming into the World ; and therefore to render weakness , absurdity , falshood , and folly , as the Products of it , is both grosse Ignorance and Blasphemy ; for the Light never changeth , however the Creature may ; neither is this Light contrary to the Word , Spirit , or Scripture . And as for their so much Railing against the Socinians and Arians , and malitiously comparing any of us with them , it is no reasonable way to Convince either us or them , if we were as ill as they render us ; for they have gone the way to animate and encourage both Socinians , and others , against them , and their absurdities , and ridged inveterate Spirits , and Railing against many that are of better Spirits ( as men at least ) than themselves . As for the Socinians , they have given ground to some to think the better of them , because they have shewn so much hatred and reviling against them ; howbeit Socinians ( if there be any that own themselves by that Name ) may answer to their Accusations , it is not my work to maintain anothers Quarrel , nor yet to reflect upon their Persons , nor either to accuse or excuse them , to gratifie such incompetent Judges as these our Revilers . I am not going about to gratifie Parties , or private Opinions ( or man's Wisdom ) on any hand , but to vindicate the naked Truth ; yet , it 's true , I have heard of some , beyond the Sea , that went under that Name Socinians , who were accused with denying the Divinity of Christ ; but I know of none here , that either deny the Divinity of Christ , or Him to be of one Substance with the Father ; if our Opposers do know of any such , they may tell them of it , and not accuse the Innocent with the Guilty , as they have done to us . However , it is but a mean way of Arguing , to accuse or miscall any for owning any Truth that any sort ( if they do Err in some things ) do hold ; for by that way , I may as well be reckoned a Papist , a Jew , or a Turk , Episcopal , or Presbyterian , or what not ? because some Truths are held by them all , in words : But we had not our Principles either from Arius or Socinias , neither did we ever deny the Divinity of Christ ( or his being of the same Substance with the Father ) as Arius , Socinias , and others , are accused ; so that therein we are very unjustly compared and mis-represented , for which I can say , The Lord forgive these our prejudiced Opposers . But it is no strange thing for us to be called by nick-Names one after another , by these and such false Accusers and incompetent Judges ; for one while they were wont to Revile us for wanting Learning , being Illiterate , Lay-men , Preachers , &c. Another while they Railed against us , and falsely accused us for Papists and Jesuits . Another while they accused us falsely with being Free-Willers , Arminians , &c. because we plead for the Free Grace of God to all men : And now we are falsely reckoned Socinians , and most injuriously accused with denying the Divinity of Christ the Son of God , which we are ever alwayes clear of , still Confessing him according to the Scriptures , both in his Sufferings , Dominion , and Glory , who is the same yesterday , to day , and for ever . CHAP. IV. Touching the Love of God in Christ , the One Offering , and how his being a Sacrifice for Sin is owned by us , according to the Scripture , and for what end construed or applyed by these our Opposers , and their corrupt Doctrines , and Inferences to cover and maintain Sin and Imperfection tearm of Life , under the notion of Satisfaction and Imputation , &c. SOme Presbyterian Priests , and Professors of other sorts also , affirming , That man having transgressed the Righteous Law of God , and so exposed to the Penalty of Eternal Wrath ; It 's altogether impossible for God to remit , forgive , or save men without a plenary Satisfaction , both by full Payment and Punishment laid on Christ the same that sin and sinners deserved , * which ( they reckon ) extends for sins past , present , and to come ; So that though People live in sin , all their dayes ( as Priests plead ) yet they sooth up themselves in sin , under this opinion , that all 's done for them at once . But whether it be for all men , or but for some , T. Vincent hath not discovered , nor ingeniously opened the extent of their Belief and Principle in this matter , but has catched and snatched here and there , and then gone to his wonted course of grinning and snarling , by Reviling and Railing , having not Asserted , nor yet minded the End and Intent of his Opposer's Reasons ( from Scripture ) and Cautions in this matter , on the behalf of God's infinite Love , Mercy , and Grace towards lost man , which is judged ( and not without cause ) these Priests Doctrine doth eclipse and lesson [ which we do not concerning the Sacrifice of Christ , as T.V. falsely thinks ] as their laying an Impossibility on God in the case ; against which many Scriptures were urged , as Exod. 34.6 , 7. 2 Chron. 30.9 . Isa. 55.7 . Isa. 31.31 . Mica . 7.18 . Matt. 6.12 . Joh. 3.16 . Act. 10.34 . Rom. 8.31 , 32 2 Cor. 5.18 , 19. Eph. 1.7 . 1 Pet. 5.10 . 1 Joh. 4.9 . whereby , with many others , is proved ; 1. The Lord God to be Merciful , Gracious to forgive Sin and Iniquity , and to pardon Transgression upon man , return and forsaking of his evil way , and that he retaineth not his anger for ever . 2dly . That it was Gods free Love and Grace to the World , to give his only begotten Son , that none should perish , but have everlasting Life , who believed in him . 3dly . That it was God's Work to Reconcile the World unto himself , in Christ Jesus . 4thly . That the Benefits and Effects of Free Grace , and Love in Christ Jesus , as Pardon , Remission , Reconciliation , Redemption through his Blood , &c. are of the nature and riches of this Grace , to all that truly receive it . 5thly . That this Free Grace of God , with its blessed Effects in the true Receivers , are not of Debt , Purchase , or Merit on the Creatures part , but Free according to the nature of Free Grace . 6thly . That the Love , Kindness , and Goodness of God is perfect and infinite in him , and so in its self not be added to , or diminished from . 7thly . That the Goodness of God where it takes impression , or is received in man in the free tenders of it in Christ Jesus , it is the principal inducement , or cause of Repentance , and forsaking of Sin. 8thly . And the Tenders of Grace and Salvation in Christ , are free to all , so that man's rejecting and slighting of it , and of God's Kindness therein , is the cause of his being rejected of God. O man , thy destruction is of thy self , but thy help is in me , saith the Lord. 9thly . Seeing that many of their own Brethren have confessed God to be infinite in his Power , and in all Perfections , and to his Divine Attributes ( as their term is ) and that he is free in them , and so his Love , Goodness , and Mercy , which attend his Judgment , being felt in the way thereof , by them that wait therein upon him ; Why should any Doctrine or Supposition be brought forth , that doth at least seem to diminish his Love and Good Will , by either mis-representing it in its self , or render it partially in its extent , as only design'd ( or but free ) for a few , & that upon full payment , and also the same full punishment and wrath that sinners deserved , by a Person distinct and separate from himself as Jesus Christ hath been mis-represented , He being One with the Father , who said , Hitherto the Father worketh , and I work , and the Son doth nothing of himself , but what he seeth the Father do , that he doth . 10thly . Christ being the Brightness of the Glory of God , and the express Image of his Divine Substance , as also truly called the Son of his Love ; by him is exprest , and clearly signified , God's Free Love , Goodness , and Mercy towards Mankind , both in his Life , Ministry , and Sufferings , in the dayes of his Flesh. 11thly . It being the Love , Patience , Long-suffering of God , and Riches of his Grace that leads to Repentance , Rom. 2. all which were truly expressed , signified , and bore Testimony unto , by Christ Jesus , both in his Ministery , Suffering , and Death on the Cross , as also by his Resurrection , and most Glorious Ascention . The Almighty Power of God , which is unto Salvation to the true Believers , was shewed forth , and born witness unto ; and blessed are they that receive the true sense thereof in its operation and effects . 12thly . I also know , and confess , That it was in God's Infinite and Free Love , that Christ gave himself a Ransom for all , to be testified of in due time . And that in the same Love he hath given himself for us , an Offering , and a Sacrifice to God , for a sweet smelling savour , Ephes. 5. and therefore God is to be followed , and Christ obeyed , by all that receive his Love. But now to T. V. his Terms and Assertion ; seeing he has not been plain , nor given any ingenious nor satisfactory Answer ; I ask and Query ; 1st . WHere doth the Scripture say , That it is impossible for God to pardon or forgive without a plenary Satisfaction , as an act of Law , made to his offended or vindictive Justice by another ? 2dly . And if this Satisfaction depend upon a second Person , or God equal with the Father , as ( T.V. saith ) Christ is proved to be , and not upon any finite Creature , Is not this all one as to say , that God satisfied God ; and then what non-scence is it to lay it upon a second Person distinct from him , and yet coequal with him ? where doth he prove these words in Scripture ? Doth not this , like the former Doctrine , either render them two distinct Gods , differing between themselves , the one abounding in Judgement , the other in Mercy ; or else God to differ from himself , and so to give Christ for his own Pacification , and not Man's real Reformation ; whilst the Notion of plenary satisfaction is made a cover or pretence for Peoples continuing in , an imperfect , sinful , polluted state , which the Priests Plead for the continuance of , in all , term of Life ? And does not this their Doctrine lead People to trample the Blood of the New Covenant under foot , and this is to deny the one Offering ? 3dly . And was that the end of Christ giving himself a Ransom , being an Offering , and Dying for All , that men might live in sin all their time , and say they are Pardoned and Redeemed , whilst they are still in Bondage ? 4thly . Is God fully satisfied that any should live in sin , or is his infinite Justice satisfied so , as not to lay hold on them in the sinful state ? 5thly . If the Wrath of God be revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men , and every disobedience shall have a just Recompence of Reward ; How then is Divine Justice fully satisfied and answered for All in that state , without their coming under the sence of it in themselves ? For if so , then nothing is to be done within them ; and then how did the Believers know the terrors of the Lord , the sentence of Death in themselves , the Law that Ministers Wrath , the Ministration of Condemnation , which in his time was Glorious , and the Righteousness of the Law fulfilled in them by Christ Jesus , who came to condemn sin in the Flesh for that end , wherein still , we confess to the one Offering , and the blessed effects thereof . 6thly . And if All must live in sin all their time , does not this tend to settle People upon their Lees , and set them at ease in a false security in Sin and Transgression , and so to deny the one Offering and Sacrifice that puts away sin ? 7thly . And if such a plenary Satisfaction ( as it is called ) be made for some in that sinful state , why not for all ? Do ye not here render God partial , whereas Christ died for All , tasted Death for Every man , gave himself a Ransom for All , which you Presbyterians ( to wit , T. D. and others ) have denyed ( and so you make Sects ) and therein have opposed Scriptures , and the Extent of God's Love and Good Will to all men ; but we Testifie to it , and own Christ's Death and Sufferings , and Effect of his Righteousness to be manifest within by the Spirit , to every one that believeth . 8thly . Why doth T. V. so vilifie a man for Confessing according to Scripiture , to the infinite Love and Mercy of God towards Mankind , and his reasoning for it from Scripture ; seeing that he himself confesseth the impossibility of any finite Creature to make any plenary satisfaction to his offended Justice ; And many of his Brethren have confessed the Divine Attributes to be in God , and he free in them , as infinite Love , Goodness , Mercy as well as Justice . As also he may find in the Common Prayer Book , That the Graciousness and Mercifulness of God , is confessed unto more then he has done . And whereas T. V. accuseth W.P. with seeming to insinuate , that he denys only the impossibility of Gods pardoning sin without satisfaction , but that his Arguments are against Satisfaction it self , he saith : Whereas W. P's own Testimony stands against him in this matter , in Pag. 32. which T. V. to his own Contradiction is also made to confess , that W. P. confesseth , That Christ offered unto God a satisfactory Sacrifice , &c. yea , a most satisfactory Sacrifice ; but not to help God as being otherwise unable to save men . However it is evident that W. P. has , according to Scriptures , confessed to God's Power , Omnipotency , Infiniteness ; and also , That Jesus Christ in Life , Doctrine , and Death , fulfilled his Fathers Will , and offered up a most satisfactory Sacrifice ; so that he hath been wrongfully accused concerning this matter . And whereas T. V. saith , That God's Righteousness and Truth , obliegeth him to take vengeance upon all that have transgressed his Law ; and his will to punish sin and sinners according to their desert , his Justice doth ingage him , &c. Answ. How then is God free in his Attributes , as they confess ? and his Good Will shewed by Christ unto men for their good , in order to Salvation ; or hath God two contrary Wills , the one obliging him to take Vengeance , or execute Judgement to the uttermost upon All ; * and the other , to Exercise Patience , Forbearance , and shew Mercy , and so not to Will the Death of Sinners , but rather their Return that they may Live : Is there any variableness or shaddow of Change in God , or rather , is not the Love and Good Will of God held forth in Christ to all men in the first place , and that then when he Chasteneth , Corrects , & Reproves any for sin , it is not in Vengeance or Fury , but in Love and Good Will ; for his Vengeance is to fall upon his Adversaries , that have rejected and turned against him , and the free proffers of his Love in Christ Jesus , and who have Crucified Christ unto themselves a-fresh , and trampled upon the Blood of the Covenant , and so despised the one Offering which was offered up once for all , as a real Witness of God's Good Will , Patience , Forbearance , Long-suffering towards all . And now to T. V. his saying , That Sinners must have Divine help to inable them to their duty , or in doing good ; and when they have done their duty , their works are but imperfect , and they unprofitable servants ; and for it brings Luke 17.10 . When you have done all the things commanded , say we are unprofitable servants , our Righteousness is as filthy raggs , Isa. 64.6 . Answ. If you , Presbyterians and Professors , were come to know a Divine help in what you do , and to do all the things Commanded , you would give us a better account of those Works and Performances brought forth by Divine help , than to compare them to filthy Raggs : Divine help would cloath you with better Garments than filthy Raggs : What sad Doctrine is this , to say the Good that is done by Divine help , and that doing all things Commanded of God , are but as filthy Raggs ? What darkness is this , not to distinguish between self-Righteousness , which are but as filthy Raggs , and the good that 's done by Divine help , that hath a beauty and splendour of God's Righteousness with it : Is this the construction you make of Christ's Satisfaction , or being a Sacrifice to God , that you must be cloathed upon , all your Life time , with your own filthy Raggs of self-Righteousness . And then to cover over all these your Babylonish Brats , with a pretence of Christ's Satisfaction , paying your Debt for you , imputation of his Righteousness , deceitfully and feignedly applyed by you to your selves in your filthy Raggs , whilst you have no share in it , nor feel in you the Effect of his sufferings , as if you were only to believe , and apply , and sin all your time , you are far from the state of the unprofitable Servant that did all that he was Commanded : You are daily breaking the Commands of God , and Plead for it : much more farther from the state of those whom Christ called no more Servants , but Friends . T. V. That God never doth , nor will , nor can pardon any sinner without satisfaction made to his offended Justice for their sins . Reply . But then in Contradiction to himself , he saith , I shall not concern my self to inquire what God could , or might do , if he pleased ; Why then doth he say , he never will , nor can ; and seem to lay such an Impossibility upon God in the case , as if he could not freely Pardon ; whereas he could do whatsoever he pleased ; and certainly , he could both please and satisfie himself . And then I Query , How is this Satisfaction made by Christ ? T. V. It depends upon him as the second Person in the Trinity , pag. 54. Query . Does it depend upon him as Man , or as God and Man ? T. V. It was necessary that the Person that should make Satisfaction should be Man , because none but a Creature could suffer : But then he adds , It were necessary he should be God , othewise the sufferings and satisfaction would have been but finite . Query . What then , were the Sufferings Infinite that the Wicked inflicted upon the Body of Christ , seeing nothing but a Creature could suffer , he saith , and yet as a Creature could give no proportionable Satisfaction to Infinite Justice : What Confusion is here ? For as God , he could not Suffer nor Die , as is confessed ; but God did strengthen the Manhood to bear up under such opressure of Wrath : But where doth the Scripture say , That Christ the second Person in the Trinity , did suffer under infinite Wrath , either as God or Man , or both ? He should have produced his plain Scripture , for Scripture we own , and Christ's Satisfaction as rightly stated , and what a most acceptable Sacrifice he was to the Father for All ; yea , his Suffering as Man , or in the Flesh , without the Gates at Jerusalem , was all acceptible to God ; his Soul was also made an Offering for sin , and that he was a Lamb slain from the Foundation of the World ; the Mystery , Virtue , and Effects of his Sufferings , none knows but they that believe in his Name , and receive the Righteousness of Faith. But indeed the manner of T. V's stating the business , I do not see that sense can be made of it , whilst he makes it a Payment of a second Person distinct from God , and yet not as a Creature ; for as such the Sufferings were finite as he faith , that could not bear a proportionable Satisfaction to infinite Justice , and then it being as God united that did bear up and strengthen the man under opressure of Wrath that made this Satisfaction , as he hath stated it , &c. Obs. What amounts this to , that God made a satisfaction to , and paid himself either by inflicting infinite Wrath upon Christ as God ( which cannot be ) or else that he satisfied himself by the finite Suffering of Christ as man , when as that which was finite could not satisfie infiniteness ( they say ) And as God-man can , they say he was the subject of Wrath or vindictive Justice ( as their term is ) How these things should be reconciled , I leave to the ingenious Readers to judge . Answ. Yes still we know that God was ever satisfied and well-pleased in Christ Jesus and in all his Works , and it was God that was in him reconciling the World unto himself , and Christ is the Son of his Love ; and it was out of his Free Love that he sent him into the World : His sending Christ surely was his own Free Grace , and no man's Purchasing , and then his Love was openly testified of , when Christ was come , who came in that Free Love of God which was testified and held forth in Christ Jesus to man , and he gave himself a Ransom to Redeem and Purchase man out of Transgression , and not to let him lye in sin and imperfection all his life time ; the Good Will of God in sending Christ , in delivering him up for man , and giving him for a Propitiation for the sins of the whole World , and his tenders of Free Pardon , Remission , and Redemption in him , was , that man might receive Christ , and come into the Living Faith , and be partaker in himself of those precious benefits , & Heavenly Priviledges tendred in Christ , & not that man should live in sin * all his time ; for an Act of Free Pardon is not granted , that men may take liberty to live in Sedition and Treason all their life ; but for those Offences past : Nor that men should Plead , that all Offences past , present , and to come , are Pardoned ; therefore they cannot be free from Rebellion , Sedition , and Treason all their Life time ; this were a sad Consequence and not to be born ; then you that plead a Satisfaction made to God , extending thus far your sin and imperfection term of Life , being in you the ground of this Plea , and also that which you cover and maintain by it , and then when God and Christ require true Repentance , perfect Obedience , Righteousness , &c. you tell God the Debt is paid , and all satisfied by another without you ; How then do you Answer the pure Law and requirings of God within ? Priests and Professors their Answer , viz. We indeavor and strive and press after perfection as much as we can , but we don't believe it is attainable here . Reply . Then your indeavouring and striving is all in the unbelief , How do you indeavour and strive ? Priests . We Pray , and seek God in Ordinances , and perform Duties . Query . But what doth all your performances amount to , while Perfection is denied , and Sin contended so much for by you ? Pr. All our best performances are sinful , we had need to ask forgiveness for the sins of our best Duties ; of our Prayers , and all other Performances ; See our Directory , Catechism , &c. So that all our Righteousness , in our best state , are but polluted and filthy Raggs , Dross , Dung , &c. Query . How now Professors , Do you thus requite God for his Love ? and is this the use you make of your Plea for a full Satisfaction and Debt paid for you ? do you thus requite the Lord , and answer his requirings , will he accept of these things at your hands ? Pr. God looks not upon us as we are in our selves , but upon Christ's Righteousness in his Active and Passive Obedience , whereby he fully satisfied for us . Query . What then , Do you think that God will be satisfied on your parts with your filthy Raggs , rotten Clouts , Dross and Dung , which you offer to him ; or will he not rather take it as a mockery or wrong at your hands , thus meanly to requite him ? what do you signifie for him ? Was this the end of Christs suffering for Man , and his being a Sacrifice well-pleasing to God , and a Propitiation for the sins of the whole World ; did he appease Wrath , fulfil Righteousness , bear the Sins , or the burthen of them , in his own Body , that men might take this liberty to Sin , Pollution , Rebellion term of Life , and so live all their time in Disloyalty , and without subjection to him ; and then , when he requires Obedience of you , and to answer his pure Law in the heart , you go and offer a few rotten Clouts , filthy Raggs , Dross and Dung , and such nauceous stuffe to him ; will not he return it upon your own faces as a mockery and contempt done to him ? Behold , I will spread Dung upon your faces , even the Dung of your solemn Feasts , Mal. 2. So it may be justly said , Even the Dung of all your best Performances , feigned Humility , feigned Confessions , feigned Prayers , feigned Pretences , feigned Applications , feigned claiming an Interest in the Satisfaction and Imputation of the Righteousness and Obedience of Christ , whilst you are out of it , cloathed with your own rotten Clouts , and filthy Raggs . And if a People should deal thus with their Prince , after he has granted and given an Act of Free Pardon and Indempnity , that they should both take liberty to Rebellion and Treason , and not only so , but Plead for it as you do for sin term of Life , and tell People , they must lay hold , and apply this Pardon ; but they must not expect to be free from actual Rebellion against their Prince while they live ; How would this be taken , and what ungratefulness and unworthiness would this import on their parts ? How would they be acquitted before him ? Nay , if they should go to requite their Prince by spreading a deal of rotten Clouts before him , and a deal of Dross and Dung under his Nostrils , every day , upon his Table ; and not only so , but publickly in the sight of the People once or twice a Week at least ( as you do your sinful Prayers and Performances ) would not this be taken as an high Affront and Indignity put upon a Merciful Prince ? Judge what would be the effect hereof ? Nay , if you should present an Oblation before him mixt with Poyson and Infection , and he know it to be so , what would be your recompence ! And do you not present your sinful Prayers and Performances before the Lord , from your sinful polluted hearts , which are deceitful , and desperate wicked above all things , and therefore full of deadly Corruption and Poyson ; will your feigned Humility , feigned Applications stand you in any stead herein ? Bring no more vain Oblations before the Lord , go offer it to thy Prince , and see if he will accept thy Person , Mal. 1. That the Son of Man came to give his Life , a Ransom for many , and that he is the Propitiation through Faith in his Blood , and that in due time he died for the ungodly , bare our sins in his own Body upon the Tree , that he was wounded for the Transgressions of the People , that he hath loved us , and given himself for us an Offering and Sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour : See Matth , 20.28 . Rom. 5.6 . 1 Pet. 2.24 . Isa. 53.5 . Rom. 3.25 . yea , we own and confess to Christ in his Suffering , being an Offering dying for the ungodly , more than you Presbyterians do . First , as to the Universal Love of God shewed forth therein . Secondly , As to the Vertue , Power , and Effects of his Death , Sacrifice , Blood , &c. First , In that he Died for All men , for the Ungodly in general ; tasted Death for every man , gave himself a Ransom for All , to be testified of in due time ; that he is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole World , which you say is but for a few , only , for a select number , the World of Believers , &c. as both T. D. and other Professors , both Presbyterians and Independants , both in Words and Writings ; and T.V. brings 1 Tim. 2.6 . and mentions only gave himself a Ransom , and leaves out the words for All ; pag. 56. And thus minces , as if he had no mind to hear that Grace is free for All as well as himself , but only for a few perhaps Presbyterians , and such-like , whom there is no reason or equallity for God to take such special notice and regard of , more than others ; for their Spirits and Hearts are as perverse and corrupt as others , if not more ridged and envious ; and their Garments of Self-Righteousness , are as polluted , ragged , and filthy as others , or worse ; Thus much they will acknowledge in their Prayers ; but perhaps they 'l take it ill that another should tell them of it . Then Secondly , The Power of Christ and his blessed Effects in his Death , acceptable Sacrifice , &c. we own more than they ; for he gave himself to Redeem Man from Sin and Transgression , and the servitude of it ; and his Blood purgeth the Conscience , cleanseth from all sin ; his Flesh is given for the Life of the World , that Man may come to rise out of sin , and live again to God in perfect Righteousness ; God hath set him forth to be a Propitiation , through Faith , in his Blood , to declare his Righteousness for the Remission of Sins past , through the forbearance of God , Rom. 3.25 . He doth not say , for sins past , present , and to come ; and that all must be sinful and imperfect all their dayes , and yet all forgiven , God being satisfied in Christ for all , whilst he is not satisfied in them , but his Spirit daily grieved , where as Christs Appearance was to put away sin by the Sacrifice of himself ; and if it was to put sin away , to cleanse man from it , and not that he should say , that only the Guilt is done away , but not the Act and Pollution of Sin , which is the gross corruption and false construction of Presbyterians , and others . And as to T.V. his wonder at W.P. his challenging any Person to give him one Scripture phrase which doth approach the Doctrine of Satisfaction . But T.V. has deceitfully left out his following words , viz. Considering to what degree it is stretched ( the degree whereto it is stretched by these Priests , is mentioned before ) not that we do deny , but really confess , that Jesus Christ in Life , Doctrine , and Death , fulfilled his Father's Will , and offered up a most satisfactory Sacrifice , but not to pay God ( as otherwise being unable to save men ( he saith . ) And further adds , And for a Justification by an imputative Righteousness , whilst not real , it 's meerly an Imagination , not a reality , and therefore rejected ; otherwise ( that which is real , which is the Righteousness of Faith really received and injoyed in the true and Living Faith ) is confessed and known to be justifying before God , because there is no abiding in Christ's Love , without keeping his Commandements ; I therefore , saith he , Caution thee in Love , not longer to deceive thy self by the over-fond imbraces of Humane Apprehensions for Divine Mysteries , but rather be informed , that God hath bestowed a measure of his Grace on thee and me , to shew us what is good , that we may obey and do it ; which if thou diligently wilt observe , thou shalt be led out of all unrighteousness , and in thy obedience shalt thou receive Power to become a Son of God , in which happy estate God only can be known by Men , and they know themselves to be justified before him , whom experimentally to know by Jesus Christ , is Life Eternal . So that the infinite God , in his infinite Love , Good Will , Kindness , Patience , Forbearance , Long-Suffering , fully expressed , declared and signified by Christ Jesus , the Son of his Love , and express Image of his Divine Substance ( not a separate Person from him ) and Gods good Pleasure and real Satisfaction in him , and all for the regaining , restoring , redeeming , and saving of lost man to himself , out of the fallen estate , out of sin and corruption , and from Wrath to come ; this we know , really own , and confess in the Light and Life of the Son of God bestowed upon us , which is that alone that can give the true knowledge of the blessed Effects of Gods Love in Christ , and of the Righteousness of the true and Living Faith in his Name and Power ; as also of their true Peace and Satisfaction , receiving the Attonement , Reconciliation and union with God in Jesus Christ , who is the Way , Truth , and Life , to all that truly believe in him . T. V. In the Scriptures he alleadgeth against Christ's Satisfaction . W. P. Not that we do deny , but really confess , that Jesus Christ in Life , Doctrine , and Death , fulfilled his Fathers Will , and offered up a most satisfactory Sacrifice . Obs. This clears him from alleadging Scripture against Christ , or what was really his satisfaction , as he is falsely accused . T.V. God proclaims himself to be gracious and merciful , whereby be declares what he is in his Son , whom he had before promised to give , and in whom alone all Nations of the Earth , that ever should obtain his favour , were to be blessed . Reply . His giving his Son , and his Favour , and Blessedness in him , proceeds from the Graciousness and Mercifulness of God ; How then does this agree with that of Impossibility freely to Pardon ; and with that of his being oblieged to take Vengeance upon all , and yet ready to forgive ? and that he hath ingaged himself to do it ; pag. 60. Can this be deemed to be of the Nature of Debt , full Payment , &c. by the rigour and punishment of Law. Secondly ▪ If that it be in the Son of God alone , in whom God declares what he is , and in whom alone his Favour and Blessing is obtained , then in him is the knowledge both of his Judgment and Mercy ; and if blessed in Christ , it is not blessed out of Christ , nor meerly for what he hath Suffered in the Flesh , without being in him ; for we are accepted only in the Beloved as is confessed ; and God is well pleased with us , only in Christ , then not with us in sin : And if so be God proclaims himself to be Gracious and Merciful in his Son , how was God's infinite Wrath , that sinners deserved , inflicted upon him , as a Person distinct from him ? Where does the Scripture say so ? Or were it good Doctrine to say , that God so loved the World , that he hated his only Son ? How then was he the Son of his Love , who freely gave himself to bear the sins , sorrow , and burthen of all ? T.V. ( Pag. 62 , 63. ) I grant that God's Love of Benevolence , or Electing Love , is not the Effect of Christ's Satisfaction , from whence it was that he sent his Son into the World for our Salvation ; but his Love of Complacency was the Effect of Christ's Satisfaction , Matth. 3.17 . Reply . Where doth the Scriptures use these Expressions , or this distinction of an Electing Love , and Complacing Love in God ? Is there any Love in God that is not well pleasing unto himself ? or that is not of his Good Will , or Benevolence , which is confest to be saving ? Or if this Love of Complacency ( so termed ) was the Effect of Christs Satisfaction , and not the other , then was it not in Being in God before ? But if you say his Love of Benevolence ( so called ) or Good Will ; was only intended for a few , or a certain select number , and for them only he received Satisfaction , or was Pacified , doth not your Doctrine herein render him partial and unequal in his wayes ? whereas he willeth not the Death of sinners , but rather their Return , that they may Live ; and God's Love , Good Will , Patience , Long-suffering , Forbearance , and Goodness is towards all , in the first place , till men reject it , and is manifest in Christ towards Mankind , and evidently testified both in his Sufferings , Dying for all men , and giving himself a Ransom for all , to be testified of in due time , and that by his Righteousness the free Gift of God came upon all men ; It 's not said in Scripture , that God's Love of Benevolence was to the Elect only , or that Christ died for a few only , or was given a Ransom for Believers only , but for All , though All do not accept of the Good Will of God towards them , nor of the Offering or Price which would purchase them to God , out of their sins , and thraldom . T. V. Whether is it any absurdity , to say , that God should be at the Charges of his own Satisfaction ? Job 33.24 . I have found a Ransom . Reply . In that place cited , he should have set down all the verse , where it 's said , He is gracious unto him , and saith , Deliver him from going down to the Pit ; I have found a Ransom , ( or an Attonement . ) So that it 's manifest , that this Ransom was all from the Graciousness of God , manifest in God's delivering Man from going down to the Pit , after that Man is chastened with Pain , vers . 19 , 20. and his Flesh consumed under the sence of God's Judgments , then a Ransom is found through God's Graciousness to him , who delivers his Soul from going into the Pit , that his Life shall see the Light , v. 28. Lo all these things oftentimes worketh God with Man , to bring back his Soul from the Pit , to be inlightened with the Light of the Living , vers . 29 , 30. Surely Elihu knew more of God's dealing , and of his inlightnings thereby , than they do who put his Work a far off from them , and oppose his Light within , being neither willing to wait under his Corrections , nor bear his Judgments , till they feel his Graciousness , and partake of a Ransom thereby , from the Power of Sin , Death , and Hell ; and to tell of God's being at the Charges of his own Satisfaction ; how does that agree with the former Doctrine , That he never will , nor can Pardon , without Satisfaction made , &c. If the Graciousness and Satisfaction was in himself before , surely what was performed by Christ for man , was an effect of God's Graciousness to bring man to himself ; and it 's without Controversie , that all that is in God , and all the Gifts and Benefits proceeding from him to man-wards , as also all his Works are acceptable and well pleasing to himself ; but his Works man ought not to put a far off from himself , since that those things which are for man's deliverance , and preservations of his Soul out of the Pit : God worketh with man , and he hath wrought all our works in us , Isa. 26. And as for Believing and Obeying his Precepts , as a Concurring Cause of Remission ; T.V. calls this Rank Popery , as importing Justification by Works . * Reply . What was said in that case , was sufficiently proved from Scriptute , and not at all refuted by T. V. when upon man's Return to God , forsaking his evil way , and believing in Christ , the Lord has promised Pardon , not to turn away his face , but to shew Mercy , &c. 2 Chron. 30.9 . Isa. 55.7 . Jer. 31.31 , 33 , 34. Joh. 3.16 . Acts 10.34 . This is no Popery at all to assert Scripture , and to confess the receiving of Remission through Repentance , and Justification through Faith , and that God hath wrought all our works in us , and this we confess to , and truly own , though unjustly we are accused for Popery . And if Grace and Justice be very well consistent , as is confess'd from Rom. 3.24 , 25 , 26. I ask how this consists with your sence of Vindictive Justice else where ? And the Lord saith , I am a just God , and a Saviour , there is none beside me , Isa. 45.21 . So he that is a just God , is a Saviour , and in this was manifest the Love of God towards us , because God sent his only begotten Son into the World that we might Live through him , herein is Love ; not that we loved God , but that he loved us , and sent his Son to be a Propitiation for our sins , 1 Joh. 4.9 , 10. Now we knowing the Life and Power of Christ , and having partaken both of the saving Vertue , and blessed Effects of his Sufferings in the fellowship thereof in Spirit , as also of the benefit of his Mediation and Intercession ; we must needs Confess him in all , and the Love and Graciousness of God through all . And whereas T. V. accuseth W. P. That his enumerating some of the Ends of Christ's mission into the World , doth reach no higher then by his setting him forth as a perfect Example . Reply . Herein he hath wronged and belyed W.P. For in his Book pag. 9.16 , 17 , 18 , 19. W. P. brings several Scriptures , both to prove God's Love and Graciousness in giving Christ , as also the benefit of Christ to man for his Reconciliation , Redemption through his Blood , Salvation , and Eternal Life , through him , which is higher , or more then being a bare Example ; for hereby its evident , that he was not only a perfect Living Example of Good to Man , but a Minister and Giver of it ; as also the Worker and Author of mans Salvation . As also W. P. in his 19. pag. Confesseth , That Christ , as being Attributed , in his Doctrine , Life , Miracles , Death , and Sufferings to God , as the Gift and Expression of his Eternall Love for the Salvation of men . 1. In abolishing that other Covenant which consisted in External and shadowy Ordinances , and that made none clean as concerning the Conscience . 2dly . In promulgating his Message of a most free and universal Tender of Life and Salvation , unto all them that believe and follow him ( the Light ) in all his Righteousness ; the very end of his Appearance being to destroy the works of the Devil , the which every man comes to experiment , as he walks in a holy subjection to that measure of Light and Grace , wherewith the Fulness hath enlightened him . 3dly . In seconding his Doctrines with Signs , Miracles , and a most innocent self-denying Life . 4thly . In Ratifying and Confirming all , with great Love and holy Resignation , by the offering up of his Body to be Crucified by wicked hands , who is now ascended far above all Heavens , and is thereby become a most compleat Captain , and perfect Example . Obs. Here Christ is confest to , as the Gift of God's Eternal Love , for the Life and Salvation of men that come to receive him , and his Appearance to destroy the works of the Devil , which his own Light and Grace maketh manifest , as it is believed and waited in , and so Christ is the Leader and Captain of such , and is made unto us Wisdom , Righteousness , Sanctification , and Redemption . And I ask , who are those T.V. saith , That the Lord extendeth his special Mercies to ? And , whether is Mercy extended to All , in sending his Son into the World ; and what more special Mercies can there be than the only begotten Son of God who is given for a Light , for a Leader , for a Covenant , for Life and Salvation , that whosoever receives and believes in him , might receive the blessed End and Priviledge of his Coming and Manifestation , to wit , Life and Salvation in him , from Sin , Death , and Destruction . And whereas T.V. in pag. 65. brings an Instance , That the Soul cannot see without the Body for want of an Organ , and that therefore tho God separately cannot satisfie , because he cannot suffer ; and man separately cannot satisfie , because the satisfaction would not be of infinite value ; yet as God-Man he satisfied , &c. Reply . Do but mark what an Instance and Comparison he has here brought in Competition with the Infinite , Omnipotent God ; to shew us , that God separately cannot satisfie any more then the Soul can see without an Organ : And who is it that God cannot satisfie ? Is it himself ? Can he not satisfie or please himself ? Is he ever divided or displeased with himself ? What gross darkness appears in this Comparison , Instance , and Assertion , to say God cannot satisfie , &c. and thus to bring the Infinite God , and his Infinite Power under the Limitations of finite Creatures ; Is this any less then Blasphemy ? let but the indifferent , judge in this case : Have not these our Oppossers been ready to call us Blasphemers but for bringing an Instance to shew the absurdity of their Doctrine , whereas this is an Instance from a finite to an infinite , tending to lessen the infinite Power of God. And as to his telling , That the Soul cannot see without an Organ : in one sense that 's not true , though he meant outwardly , yet it hath a spiritual sight . As to his saying , That God cannot suffer , is in one sense not true , though he intended as to Death , yet the Spirit of God hath suffered , and hath been grieved by man's Transgressions : The Rebellious Jews grieved and vexed his Holy Spirit , until he became their Enemy , and fought against them , Isa. 63.10 . And did not the Lord say , Behold , I am pressed under you as a cart is pressed that is full of sheaves , Amos 2.13 . So did not he suffer in being pressed by them then , and did not he say , My heart is turned within me , my repentings are kindled together , I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger , I will not return to destroy Ephraim , for I am God , and not man , the Holy One in the midst of thee , Hos. 11.8 , 9. Did not herein his Suffering and Forbearance declare him to be God , the Holy One , and not man , rather then the Execution of the fierceness of his Anger ? And was not God's being grieved by the rebellious Jews a Suffering , when they hardened their hearts , and provoked him in the Wilderness ; for he said , Forty years long was I grieved with this generation , Psal. 95. therefore to day if ye will hear his voice , harden not your heart : And did not God suffer long by the old World before he destroyed them , seeing when he saw their wickedness , it grieved him at his heart , Gen. 6.6 . Also he said , His Spirit should not alwayes strive with them , vers . 3. So that his Spirit did suffer , and was grieved by them before they were destroyed . Again , How oft did they provoke him , and grieve him in the Desart ? Psal. 78.40 . And did not he Complain against the People when they were Rebellious and Polluted , saying , Your new Moons and your appointed Feasts my Soul hateth , they are a trouble to me , I am weary to bear them : Was not this trouble , and being weary with them , matter of Suffering ? and was not this his Suffering for some time before he did ease himself of his Adversaries , and avenge him of his Enemies : See Isa. 1. And also it 's said , Chap. 7.13 . Hear ye now ye House of David , is it a small thing to weary men , but will ye weary my God also ? And Chap. 43.24 , 25. Neither hast thou filled me with the Fat of thy Sacrifices , but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins , thou hast wearied me with thy iniquities ; I , even I am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for my own sake , and will not remember thy sins . ( Mark ) for my own sake ; So then surely God could satisfie himself , seeing it was for his own sake that he blotted out Transgressions ; and here the infinite Value , Ransom , and Satisfaction was in himself , and what Patience , Forbearance , Long-Suffering , and Forgiveness , as was signified by Christ ( and testified of by his outward Suffering and Death ) was really in being in God before , and in the fullness of time a signal testimony thereof given to man 〈◊〉 induce him to receive the free Love and Grace of God , and Life and Salvation in the Son of his Love. T.V. Who do ascribe more Grace and Mercy to God than we , who do apprehend it in his Son , pag. 65. Reply . Indeed your apprehensions in that matter , are sufficiently manifest before ; had T.V. added , Who do apprehend more Grace and Mercy in God , then we that say he cannot Satisfie himself , and Christ as man , could not satisfie him by finite Suffering ; and the Grace we ascribe , we apprehend it , only to extend to a few , a select number , &c. Had T.V. spoke this plainly together , People might the more easily have judged , whether he has truly ascribed or apprehended concerning the Grace of God , and whether many thousands do not ascribe more Grace and Mercy to God , that own it in the free and general Extent of it to all men , than he hath done . Again his confessing , That God doth execute his Justice freely , as he doth love his Image in his People freely , yet both are necessary , because Natural , and neither forced nor compelled by any External Agent . Reply . So , here 's a better Confession then much of his Work before , and it contradict much of it : For , 1st . If his Love be as free as his Justice , and neither compelled , neither fotced by any External Agent , how then is he obliged to take vengeance upon all that have transgressed , when upon Repentance he readily pardoneth and passeth by former offences ; and how then is it impossible for God freely to Pardon . 2dly . What is that Image in his People he loves freely , is it perfect or imperfect ? if perfect , then how do they deny the perfection of any thing within , or that 's inherent in the Believers ; and if he loves his Image in his People freely , then he is satisfied in his own Image , and that which brings to know and injoy this Image , and the renewing of it within , is that which brings into Love and Union with God , which is his Divine Spirit and Power , that renews man into the Heavenly Image and Righteousness of the Everlasting God , which they that injoy , have the acceptable Sacrifice , and from thence can present Living Sacrifices unto God , to his Eternal Praise . And to T. V's saying , That if Christ were not punished for us to satisfie God's Justice , it would follow from W. P 's words , that Christ should be a sinner , and that he was punished for his own sins . Reply . That 's a blasphemous Consequence indeed , but not truly charged upon W. P. for he never intended by his words to render Christ a sinner , nor that he was punished for his own sins , for he never sinned , but he was Punished and Suffered by sinners , who by wicked hands ( and so by their injustice ) put him to Death , and under the buden and weight of their Transgressions he Suffered , as also his tender Spirit that made Intercession , and suffered for Transgressors , from a fore-sight of the Wrath that should come upon the Rebellious ; and was not the Wicked the Instruments that wounded , bruised , and afflicted him , and that oppressed his Righteous Soul ? And did not his Innocent Life , and Righteous Soul , suffer under a great oppression and weight of man's Transgression , when he was in his Agony , and sweat drops of Blood , before his being Crucified ? And so was not his Suffering two-fold , both Inward and Outward ? And then if so , that the pure Life and holy Spirit suffered , as bearing the burthen of their sins , and if the God-Head being in Christ so nearly united , as to bear up the Manhood under the Suffering ( as is confessed ) How then can it be deemed that God inflicted the punishment of Eternal Wrath or Vengeance on his Son ? Surely his permitting wicked men , by their wicked hands , to punish him with a Temporal Suffering and Death , could not be his Eternal Wrath or Vengeance , which is supposed to Answer and Satisfie Divine Justice for man , and so to acquit man Living and Dying in sin ( a great Error ) from Eternal Wrath ; whereas Christ Jesus was the Son of his Love ; were it not inconsistent to say , That God's Justice did punish or execute Wrath upon his Love ? Seeing that it 's confest , That Grace and Justice are very well consistent , and that there is a free Exercise both of Justice and Love , without force or compulsion : How does T.V. his matter hang together ! let the moderate , judge . But had he stated it in the Language and sense of the Scriptures of Truth , there had not appeared this Contrariety nor Opposition , either between us , or with himself : For Scripture-accounts concerning Christ and his Sufferings ( for sinners ) both inward and outward , I do own , and Confess to , and have a reverend Esteem of all his Sufferings , and the worth thereof ; and do greatly prize his Meekness and Humility , who hath freely condescended according to the Good Will and Pleasure of God ( not from Wrath nor Compulsion ) to offer himself a Lamb without spot to God , to bear our griefs and sorrows ; yet ( saith the Prophet Isaiah , chap. 53 ) we did esteem him stricken , smitten of God , and afflicted ; but he was wounded for our transgressions , he was bruised for our iniquities , the chastisement of our Peace was upon him , and with his stripes we are healed ; he was oppressed , he was afflicted , yet he opened not his mouth , he was brought as a Lamb to the slaughter ; he made his Grave with the wicked , and with the rich in his Death , because he had not done no violence , neither was any deceipt in his mouth ; yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him , * he hath put him to grief , when thou shalt make his Soul an Offering for sin , he shall see his seed , he shall prolong his dayes , and the Pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand . This is he that hath been despised and rejected of men ; This is he who hath been as a Lamb slain from the Foundation of the World ; This is he men have evilly entreated , and evilly requited , for his kindness and good Will that he hath shewed forth towards them ; This is he whom they have caused to suffer by their iniquities , and so thereby have shewed great unworthiness and ingratitude towards him and his Father , whose Pleasure and Good Will he came to perform , both in his being delivered up to undergo Afflictions , and Bruises , and many hard Sufferings for Mankind ; and surely God was in him Reconciling the World , even in , and through that low and suffering state , which the Righteous Seed , and renowned Plant of the Lord hath undergone ; but now what effect hath all this Love , Tenderness , and Compassion of God , in , and through Christ , upon and in man , whilst Sin , Transgression , and Imperfection term of Life is pleaded for by the Priests ? Surely they herein do not make a right use of Christ's Suffering , but both reject him , and the End thereof ; and this was not the use that the true Ministers did make thereof ; for they witnessed that he died for all , that as many as lived should not live unto themselves , but unto him that died and rose again , 2 Cor. 5.15 . and his own self bare our sins in his Body on the Tree , that we being dead to sin , should live to Righteousness ; this was not a living to sin , nor pleading for Imperfectiom , as T. V ▪ hath done ; who farther adds , viz. The 7 th Consequence is childish , and a shame that a man that pretendeth to any brains , should mention it , That though Christ hath satisfied for us , the Debt remaineth still to Christ , pag. 66. Reply . Is this such a childish , shameful , or brainless Consequence , that the Debt remains still to Christ ? Has not T.V. herein shewed his Ignorance of Scripture ? for ought nor Christ to be obeyed who is the Author of Eternal Salvation to them that obey him , Heb. 5. and we are not under the Law to God , but under the Law to Christ ; and to what end is his spiritual Law written in the Heart , and his Spirit in the inward Parts , but to be obeyed ; and we are Debtors not to the Flesh to live after the Flesh , Rom. 8.12 . to what then , but to live after the Spirit , and through it , to mortifie the Deeds of the Body , vers . 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. The Apostle was far from pleading for sin and Imperfection as Priests do , for which God will judge them by Jesus Christ , to whom all Judgment is committed , who hath Power to proclaim the Day of Vengeance , as well as the acceptable year of the Lord. The truth of it is , T.V. has Confessed to what W. P. has writ in many places , but to his own Contradiction ; but here he falls a Railing , and vilifying him with such terms , as Abominable Worm , &c. He has not at all dealt fairly or honestly by him , having left out , and not stated his Arguments , and then rails against his Consequences ; whereas he , and his Brethren , would not be so dealt by . T. V· Take away Satisfaction , then the Word , and Spirit , and we are false Witnesses ; then is our Preaching vain , and you are all yet in your sins ; then you must all of you , of necessity , be damned and punished Eternally . Reply . Truly so they are like to be , for all the help they are like to have from your Preaching , especially if their being yet in their sins be a sign of it ; and that you are false Witnesses , and your Preaching vain ; for so they are like to be in their sins all their Life time , if they believe and drink-in your sinful Doctrine for sin and Imperfections remaining in all , term of Life . And as for T. V's bitter storm he brings forth , of accusing and charging W.P. in the same words that Peter said to Simon Magus the Sorcerer , or Witch , Acts 8.9 , 21 , 22 , 23. and as having no part in Christ's Satisfaction , and his heart not being right in the sight of God , and to be in the gall of bitterness , and bond of iniquity : And further adds these words , to render him worse , viz. Wicked Blasphemies , and Abominable and Heretical Assertions . I hope W.P. will easily bear such vilifying without reviling again , there being no matter of Argument nor Proof in them , either to Convince , or terrifie him ; and for the matter of Judgment against him , he can Appeal to more Competent and Moderate Persons to judg in the case , than T.V. hath shewen himself . T.V. Pag. 67. God hath engaged to keep Believers out of a Course of Disobedience ; and if they do transgress in some particulars , he hath threatned to chastize them , which is not inconsistent with Christ's satisfying his Justice for their sins , since chastizing is not an Act of Vindicative Justice , but Fatherly Love. Reply . Here observe , 1st . That Chastizement , and Revenge , are two things . 2dly . If they be to be Chastized for Transgression , it is to bring them into more subjection to God , and conformity to Christ , and not to leave them in sin , and Imperfection , term of Life , under a Plea of the Debt being fully paid , and full Satisfaction being made for them , by Christ's under-going Wrath and Vindictive Justice ; which , how do these stand with Free Grace , Goodness , Pardon , Remission , &c. upon Repentance ? 3dly . How does T.V. suppose Vindictive Justice , or Eternal Wrath incurred by mans Offences , to be laid on Christ , which is not Chastizement as confessed ; and so he makes full Satisfaction the Effect of God's full Revenge on his Innocent Son ; as if one should say , That God could not command Wrath , but were bound thereby till he had Executed the Extremities of it upon Christ ( for so it hath been deserved by sin and sinners ) as if he had not absolute Power to shew his Love , Good Will ( and Satisfaction therein for his own Names sake ) And is not this to render God more cruel than man , or his Prerogative below that of Earthly Princes , which is best known in shewing Mercy and forgiveness : God can do whatsoever he will , and his Will is chiefly to that which he most delighteth in , to wit , Goodness , Mercy and Forgiveness , that he may shew himself Gracious for to restore man to himself . And he saith , I will not contend for ever , neither will I be alwayes wroth , for the Spirits should fail before me , and the Souls that I have made , * Isa. 57.16 . And T. V. stating it , as God's Revenge , or Vindictive Justice on Christ ( and the Chastizement only on the Transgressors ) is not Scripture , Is. 53.5 . for it saith , He was bruised for our Iniquities , and the Chastizement of our peace was upon him ; ( Mark ) He was bruised , and the Chastizement of our peace was upon him : It is not said , Vindicative , or rather Vindictive Justice , or the Revenge of our Peace was upon him ; for T.V. has Confessed a difference , and Chastizement comes in Fatherly Love , and not Revenge ; O Lord correct me , but with Judgment , not in thy Anger , least thou bring me to nothing , Jer. 10.24 . And now this Correction , or Chastizement from the Lord is known by his People in the time of their spiritual Travel and Warfare , that they may be partakers of his Holiness and perfect Righteousness , as they have partaken of Christ's Sufferings , and known the Fellowship thereof ; But , and if men continue in Rebellion against Christ , rejecting his Love , and Grace ; his Sufferings , and Satisfaction , will not free them from the severity of God , nor from the Execution of his Judgement , which is given to Christ to do , who hath also Power and Authority to Execute Judgement , because he is the Son of man that hath suffered , and is that man by whom God will Judge the World in Righteousness , Joh. 5.22.27 . Acts 17.31 . and by whom the secrets of men shall be judged according to the Gospel , which he and his Ministers have proclaimed , which is the acceptable year of the Lord ( to them that receive it , who have thirsted after it ) and the Day of Vengeance of our God to them that reject the Love of the Truth , and hate to be Reformed , how highly soever they may boast of Satisfaction , and Imputation , &c. CHAP. V. Touching the Presbyterian Priests ( and Professors ) Doctrine of the Justification of the Ungodly , by an imputed Righteousness ; and T. V. his Plea , and Proofs for it , Examined . FIrst , he brings 2 Cor. 5.21 . for his Proof , viz. He hath made him to be sin for us , that knew no sin , that we might be made the Righteousness of God in him ; ( to which he adds ) as Christ was made sin for us , though Innocent , by the imputation of our sin to him , for which he was condemned and punished ; so we are made the Righteousness of God in him , though guilty , by the imputation of his Righteousness unto us , whereby we are Justified . Reply . Here T.V. has given us their sense of Imputation , viz. That Guilty Persons are made the Righteousness of God in Christ , and so Justified , whilst in their sins , by the Imputation of his Righteousness ; as much as to say , when they are really unrighteous and actively sinners , yet imputedly Justified , and made the Righteousness of God in Christ , which is a false and corrupt meaning put upon the Apostles words ; for there 's no Unrighteousness , no Guilt , nor Impurity in Christ , for in him is no sin , * and he that abides in him sins not ; besides , as Christ was made a Curse , or Sin for us ; the Scripture doth not say So we are made the Righteousness of God in him : For if these words , As he , So we , which are added , were true , the Consequence would be As he was made to be sin for us , who knew no sin , nor ever could sin , So we are made the Righteousness of God in him , who never knew Righteousness , nor ever can be Righteous : What a gross corruption and perverting of Scripture is this , and how contrary to the Righteousness of God , to suppose guilty , and sinful Persons to be Righteous , whilst such ; as if God's Righteousness , or Workmanship , were impure : This Doctrine has led many in the way to Hell and Destruction ; But T.V. in 2 Cor. 5. should have read vers . 17. If any man be in Christ , he is a new Creature ; old things are passed away , behold all things are become new . Which is a real change in that man that is in Christ , from sin and transgression , and not a Justification therein ; for the Spirit of God both discovers to man his sin , and reproves him as a transgressor , and one Guilty whilst therein ; and surely God does not accept of men , as his own Righteousness , and in Christ , whilst his Spirit in them judges them to be both unrighteous and out of Christ ; for if he did , that were to make God contradict himself , and to speak quite contrary to his own Spirit , which were very absurd , and blasphemous to assert : But had T.V. rightly minded and understood that of Rom. 8.1 , 2 , 3 , 4 ▪ he might have seen how contrary it is to his Doctrine before , and himself therein confuted : For , 1st . They that are in Christ Jesus , walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; and it s to such only to whom there is no Condemnation , therefore Justification ; and this is not a sinful , imperfect , or guilty state . 2dly . The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus , hath made such free from the Law of Sin and Death . 3dly . God sending his Son to condemn sin in the Flesh , was not to look upon man Justified in the sinful state , or whilst he walks after the Flesh. But , 4thly . That the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in such who walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; and this doth absolutely confute T.V. and his Brethren . And whereas for the proof of his Doctrine of Guilty Persons being the Righteousness of God , he citeth Rom. 4.6 , 7. where it is said , David described the blessedness of that man to whom God imputeth Righteousness without Works ; to which I say , not without the Works of the True and Living Faith in Jesus , nor yet without a subjection to the Law of Faith , but without that , the Works or Deeds of the Law of Works , chap. 3.19 , 20 , 21 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28. the Apostle did not exclude the Works , Obedience , or Righteousness of the true Faith , from a justified state ; for if Paul had so done , it had been contrary to James his Testimony , who said , Was not our Father Abraham justified by Works , when he had offered up Isaac ? See Jam. 2. And Abraham believed God , and it was counted to him for Righteousness ; We say , That Faith was reckoned to Abraham for Righteousness , Rom. 4.3 , 9. which Faith was not without its own Works , although it be not the Works of the Law , as Circumcision , and others , that were Types or Signs , wherein the Righteousness of Faith doth not consist , which they that are in the uncircumcision ( as the Gentiles that were the ungodly , spoken of , Rom. 4.5 , 11. chap. 3.29 . ) do receive through Faith in Christ , and become really partakers thereof , being Justified from all those things from which they could not be Justified by the Law of Moses . And so such are Justified or made Just , or truly so Accepted of God , not in sin , or ungodliness , but as Redeemed out of it , and Sanctified from it . See 1 Cor. 6.11 . And blessed are they whose Iniquities are forgiven , and whose sins are covered ; Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin ; This is no Proof for T. V. his sinful Doctrine ; for them whom the Lord doth bless , and imputeth not Iniquity to , are in the way of God , and partakes of his Righteousness through Faith , & cannot feed upon an imagined Imputation or Justification in sin ; for in Psal. 32.2 . David describeth the blessedness of such in these words , Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not Iniquity , and in whose Spirit there is no guile : These words ( in whose Spirit there is no guile ) the Priests use to leave out in their talk of Imputation , but as their Faith without Works ( or a real Obedience on the Creatures part ) is but a dead , empty , and feigned Faith : So their laying a claim to , and pretending a Justification by the imputed Righteousness of Christ , whilst they are sinners , and polluted , pleading for Imperfection whilst here , 't is but a false imagination of their own ; for , though we confess that Justification is in the Righteousness of Christ , by Faith in him , and that this True and Living Faith , and the Righteousness of it , is reckoned to the true Believer ; yet we do not therefore grant that Sinners , or Polluted Persons in that state , are cloathed with this Righteousness , nor that 't is imputed to them as theirs , whilst they are out of it ; for they that have put on Christ , are translated from sin and unrighteousness , and so are made partakers of the Righteousness of Faith , which T.V. saith is without us , and so puts it a far off , and yet cites Phil. 3.9 . which plainly Contradicts his Doctrine ; for Paul having confessed Christ Jesus to be his Lord , and suffered the loss of all things , that he might win Christ , it was that he might be found in him , not having his own Righteousness , but that which is through the Faith of Christ , the Righteousness which is of God by Faith , that ( said he ) I may know him , and the Power of his Resurrection , and the Fellowship of his Suffering , being made conformable to his Death , vers . 9 , 10. ( Mark ) his winning Christ , being found in him , his not having his own Righteousness , but that of Faith extends to a real injoyment of Christ , and his being in him , and not to an imagined Imputation in sin , but to his knowing Christ , and the Power of his Resurrection , Fellowship of his Suffering , and Conformity to his Death ; this was a blessed estate , which all you that plead for Sin , and Imperfection , and a Justification , whilst you are out of Christ , or strangers to him , being both unacquainted with his Power and Fellowship of Suffering , and never came ye so to be conformable to his Death , you being yet alive in your sins . And as to T. V. his Argument , or Syllogism , it proves nothing of his Doctrine of impure or guilty Persons being Justified by Imputation , for Justification by Faith in Jesus Christ , and his Righteousness we never denied ; but this Faith is not a dead Faith , nor without its own Works , for it purifieth the heart , but so does not your Faith , who plead for sin , by which you apply Christ's Righteousness , whilst you are out of it , and it without you , as T.V. confesseth pag. 17. How hath he , and the rest of you that own this his Doctrine , soothed and daubed People up in their sins , flattering them with a Pretence of Imputation and Justification therein , when your Faith is but dead , and empty , as a body without a Spirit is dead . That we are Justified by Faith , without Works ; By what Faith , and without what Works , is mentioned and manifest according to Scripture , both in that to the Romans , as also in that to the Galatians : See Rom. 3 , & 4. chap. and Gal. 2 , 3 , 4 , & 5. chap. that they were the Works of the Law ( and not the Works of Faith ) without which they were Justified . And as of his telling of the Deficiency of Righteousness inherent ; I say , that Christ's Righteousness within , is not Deficient , who works both perfect Sanctification and Righteousness in true Believers ; and what is the end of seeking for a Righteousness without ( as T.V. saith ) if they must not really injoy Christ's Righteousness within ? And where do the Scripture say , That they may seek for Christ's Righteousness Imputed without themselves ? How proves he this by Scripture , &c. his saying they can be Justified only by Faith , whilst he excludes ( its Works ) it 's contrary to the Apostles Doctrine , Jam. 2. Faith if it hath not Works is dead being alone , and ye see how that by Works man is Justified , and not by Faith only , vers . 17.24 . T. V. Which Faith he putteth in opposition to all Works , not only of the Ceremonial and Moral Law , but also to all Works wrought in Faith , which are works still , such as Abraham's Works , and David's Works were , pag. 70 , 71. Reply . The Justifying Faith which is Living and Real , was never put in opposition to its own Work ( by either Christ , his Apostles , or Ministers ) nor to all or any Works wrought in it self , by any , but Antichrist , and his Ministers , such as T. V. and his Brethren have manifestly shewn themselves to be , in this and other particulars . For the Apostle Paul was so far from putting Faith in opposition to all Works wrought in it , that he saith , Do we then make void the Law through Faith , God forbid ; yea , we Establish the Law , Rom. 3.31 . And if while we seek to be Justified by Christ , we our selves also are found sinners ; is therefore Christ the Minister of sin , God forbid , and I through the Law am dead to the Law , that I may live unto God , Gal. 2.17 . Now this Living unto God , being Crucified with Christ , was by the Faith of the Son of God , which Living unto God , was in the Righteousness of Faith , and not in sin , for Christ is not the Minister of sin ; so that he doth not set Faith in opposition to its own Works , as most falsly is affirmed ; but to those Works , whether of the Law , or other self-Works , or Righteousness , that were out of the True Faith , which purifies the heart , gives Victory , Sanctifies , and Justifies ; and the Saints knew the puting off the body of the sins of the Flesh by the Circumcision of Christ ( so that they did not carry a body of sin all their time about with them ) and a being buried with him in Baptism , wherein also they they are risen with him through the Faith of the operation of God , who haith Raised him up from the dead , Col. 2.11 , 12. And that God would fulfil the Work of Faith with Power , 2 Thes. 1.11 . This Paul prayed for ; so he did not set Faith in opposition to its own Work ; As also Heb. 11. how amply is the true Faith ( without which it's impossible to please God ) demonstrated by the many Works , and blessed Effects of it , which did attend it in God's People , in their acceptable obedience and subjection to him , both in Doing and Suffering , concerning which , both Abel , Enoch , Noah , Abraham , Sarah , Isaac , Joseph , Moses , and many others , are instanced for their faithful obedience and subjection . As also the Apostle James , chap. 2.20 , 21 , 22. plainly Contradicteth T.V. his putting Faith in opposition to its own Works , wherein he might as well have put it in opposition to it self : Who farther adds , from Rom. 4.2 , 5. touching God's Justifying the ungodly , That no Persons , being the subjects of the Gospel Justification , but as ungodly . Reply . Herein again he has wrested Scripture ; for the Apostle doth not say , he Justifies them AS ungodly , but he that believeth on him that Justifieth the ungodly ( it 's not as ungodly ) which were the believing Gentiles that were so ungodly ( there intended ) before they came into the Work of Faith , and to partake of its Righteousness within , for they were not Justified in ungodliness , but from it ; Justifieth is not Justified ; the one being the Work a doing , the other done ; which where it is so Effected by Faith , that purifieth the heart , therein the real Subjects of Gospel Justification are manifest , not as ungodly , but as Righteous , being Washed , Sanctified , and Justified by the Spirit of our God , and that in the Name and Power of the Lord Jesus , 1 Cor. 6.11 . Moreover , T.V. hath Confessed , That God doth not leave them ungodly ; where he removeth the guilt of sin , he removeth also the filth of sin ; Justification and Sanctification being inseparable companions , and that Justification is never without Sanctification , pag. 70. Reply . It 's well he has somewhat inclined to Confess to Truth , though to the manifest break-neck and overthrow of his own Cause ; For now , What 's become of his Justification of the ungodly , of the Guilty as ungodly , &c. by the imputed Righteousness of Christ ? ( as his words are ) And when was that performed or wrought ? Now , not till Sanctification be known , that the filth of sin is removed ; Justification and Sanctification being inseparable companions , and the one never without the other . And surely people are not the subjects of Sanctification , or Sanctified , as ungodly , or as in the filth or pollution of sin ; let the Readers but mark here how flatly this T. Vincent hath overthrown and contradicted himself , and his corrupt Doctrine ; for an Imputation of Righteousness to the Unrighteous , and a Justification in Sin and Transgression , as ungodly , &c. whereas he that Justifieth the Wicked , and he that Condemneth the Just , they both are abomination unto God , Prov. 17.15 . And of this our Adversary is greatly guilty . And as for Tho. Danson's Synopsis , which he so highly commends , as that the use of it may be great , for the Establishing of Christians in the Truths , &c. By this he does but shew his own shallowness and weakness , to Commend thus highly of such a silly confussed piece ( which hath also many Lyes and Falshoods in it ) as that sorry Pamphlet of T. D's , as it will further be manifest ; and how apparently both T. V. and T.D. have Contradicted themselves , and each other , even in their principal Points . And as for his putting off S. E. his Challenge to Fast and Watch , as a Tempting of God , and a God provoking sin , to endanger self-murther : And judges him , as being Mad , and numbred amongst distracted People . Indeed this is as smooth a put off , and excuse , as he could readily have imagined , to excuse himself from Fasting , &c. so that his Accusing S.E. as being Mad , Distracted , &c. does neither prove him to be so , nor does it destroy either S.E. his Confidence or Motion in the matter , but sets it the more over T. V. and his Brethrens heads , who are afraid their God should fail them , and to enter upon this Engagement ; especially whilst T.V. Confesseth , That the Scripture Instances of Fasting many dayes together were Miraculous : And surely , whether S. E. had not Power , or a particular Motion ( not Imitation ) to have Answered his own Proposition in that case , of Fasting ( if he had been tryed ) T.V. does not know , because he durst not put it to the tryal . And as for T. V. his Railing and Reviling the Quakers , and Charging them with being , Black Mouthed , Blasphemous Hereticks , with damnable Errors . These are no proofs against us , but do manifest his Enmity ; as also his Answers to his feigned Queries against us , are but his own Forgeries , without either Reason , or proof of any of them ; therefore returned back upon his own head , and denyed by us . His Queries and Answers against us , runs thus ; viz. Query 1. Do you know what you are ? 1st . You are Strangers to Christ , whatever your fancy be of Christ within you . 2dly . You are Enemies to Christ , and I believe that Christ hath scarcely greater Enemies under the Sun , than you . 3dly . You are Children of the Devil , and the Works of your Father you do , and will do . 4thly . You are Serpents , and a generation of Vipers , full of deadly Poyson , Poyson in the Head , the Poyson of damnable Errors ; you are Serpents putting forth your stings . Query 2. Do you know where you are ? 1st . You are in the Devils School . 2dly . You are in the Devil's Arms , he huggeth you so fast that it 's more difficult to pluck you from thence , than the most wicked and profane . 3dly . You are in the Devil's Chains . Query 3. Do ye know what you are doing ? 1st . You are dishonouring God. 2dly . You are murdering your own Souls , imbruing your hands in your own Blood , you are some of the greatest Soul murderers of any that live upon the Earth . Query 4. Do you know whether you are a going ? You are going the certain way to Hell. Thus far T. V. in answer to himself ; but his outrage , and big words against us , does not at all terrifie us ; nor are his bare Assertions any Proofs : And whether he has not shewn great wrath , bitterness , and enmity , and put forth a Serpents sting here in the tayl of his Pamphlet , let the moderate Reader judge : And whether T.V. in this his outrage , be a Person to be believed , yea , or nay ? Or his severe Judging , harsh Censuring of us , to be taken as for one in Christ's stead and Judgement Seat , whom partly he presumes herein to personate , as he saith , If our Saviour were on Earth , he would stile us as he did the Pharisees ; but in this he has presumed in Christ's Name , and in his Name uttered his own slanders against the Innocent , for which a day of accompt will come , which will be heavy upon him , and such false Accusers , if they do not Repent ; and if his eyes were open , he might see himself guilty of the same things , whereof he hath accused and judged others : Who in the end of his Book repeates again what he did before Assert , That it were better for you to drink a Cup of Poyson , than to suck-in the Quakers damnable Opinions , &c. If People will be such silly Women , as to be affrighted with T. Vincent his Railing and Slanders against us , and his swelling words of vanity , so as to think the worse ( or be more afraid ) of the Quakers ; It will be the way to keep them in slavery and bondage under him , and such as he is , thereby to be made a Prey upon ; for he , and such , seem more offended , when some of their Hearers , that have gratified them with Rewards , or are somewhat Rich , are like to forsake them and turn to the Quakers , then with all the threatnings they can devise , they 'l endeavour to detain them , as this Tho. Vincent has publish'd , That it was worse to go to the Quakers Meetings , than to a Bawdy-house . What think you , his Hearers , and the rest of his Brethren , Were these words savoury , and did they become his Profession , yea or nay ? What sayes Joh. Owen , Tho. Danson , and William Maddox to it ? Let Honesty and Truth in All , arise and judge . Ah! poor passionate T. Vincent , thou hast brought such a blot and brand of Infamy upon thee ( by thus peevishly busying thy self against the Quakers ) that will not easily be wiped off : Consider thy wayes , and what thou art a doing , before it be too late . ERRATA . PAge 10. line 23 , 24. read as if infallible . p. 25. l. 10. for Essences r. Essence . p. 21. l. 4 , & 11. r. see Arias Montanus . l. 5. f. Os-iik . r. Osajik . p. 30. l. last . r. gifts . p. 33. l. 9. r. Persons . p. 36. l. 3. r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 37. l. 4. f. no r. do . p. 40. l. 9. r. man's return . p. 45. l. 32. & p. 46. l. 11. f. oppressure r. a pressure . p. 48. l. 20. f. that they r. if they . p. 52. l. 14. r. complacent . l. 36. f. whether r. neither . p. 57. l. last . r. Contradicts . p. 60. l. 28. f. not under the Law to God , r. not without Law to God. The Errors and defects of the Press , whether they be Words , Letters , or Points , the moderate Reader may easily see , and Correct , by the Import of the Discourse . An Answer to Thomas Danson's Synopsis of Quakerism , as he falsly and scurrilously calls it . BEfore I come to treat about the many particulars mentioned in Tho. Danson's Pamphlet that relate to matter of Doctrine , I may not omit some passages of his to the Reader as to matter of Fact wherein he shews his prejudice and peevish spirit against the Innocent People of God , called Quakers . As first , and chiefly , where he accuseth W. P. of attempting to shake the Rock Christ Jesus in his God-head and Offices , which is an absolute falshood and slander , as hath been proved over and over ; the Divinity of Christ being still owned by W.P. so that what can we expect from such a one as begins his work with a palpable Lye , as T.D. hath done , and all to render the Quakers as odious as he can ; he adding , how well he ( W. P. ) hath immitated the Leaders of his Party in their respects to other like truths , that so the Christians of these Parts may no longer be imposed upon by the Quakers seeming innocence . Hereby he hath added to his falshood and slander before , and struck at the Innocency of the Quakers , which he scornfully and falsly counts but seeming ; as also the Leaders of his Party ( as he calls them ) never denied the Divinity of Christ , nor ever held any Principles tending thereto since they were raised up to be a People , and to preach the Name of Christ : and if so be that Innocency be not really found among the Quakers , why are they so hated , persecuted , and brought under Sufferings and Reproaches by such as be in the Woolfish nature tending , and tearing whilst no real occasion hath been given them by Quakers ? who have patiently suffered both under the ridged spirit of the Presbyterians , and since ; and as to their Principles . T. D. is no competent judge over them , whilst he hath perverted them , both in the former Powers days ▪ and now also ; and whilst in those days he did indeavour to insinuate into the Powers that then were , against the Quakers , he was plainly manifested , and his Errors and Falshoods detected by those faithfull Servants of Christ Samuel Fisher , Richard Hubberthorn , ( and my self ) he might now have been silent from raking over his old silly confused stuff , so long since answered and confuted , since that from the ample Confutation , and just reproof and discovery given against him by Samuel Fisher he could never yet clear himself , nor hath essayed a Replication thereto , but only a slight put off , as will appear , without either Truth or Reason : and as for his commendation of the pains of his worthy Friend Master Thomas Vincent , as he calls him , he has little ground to applaud his pains ; for he has sufficiently manifested his envy , errors , confusion and shallowness , as any unbyassed may see ; as also the palpable contradictions both to himself and T. D. so that they should first have studied to see a reconciliation and harmony between their own Principles before they had come thus publickly to engage ; but it is the Judgement of God upon them , and such giddied spirits , that one should oppose and contradict another , till they are both overturned and broke to pieces in their war ; but if his worthy Friend Thomas Vincent hath done so worthily against the Quakers , why doth T. D. take so much pains again after him ? why doth he actum agere , as he saith ? his Answer is , because of some reflections upon him , also that as experience hath shewed there is a great deal of difference of intellectual gifts , and that the Method , Phrase , and Notions of scarce any one man are acceptable to all ▪ he saith ; by which it appears that he was conscious , or at least jealous that his worthy Master Vincent's work would not be so acceptable as his own , but would give distaste ; and therefore he has endeavoured to smooth it over , and to new moddel it in another phrase , according to what he has imagined and learned out of Writers and old Authors , both Popish and others ; but what saith he for not answering Samuel Fisher's Book against himself , Jo. Owen , Baxter and Tombs , Entituled Rusticus ad Academicos ( which they were never able to answer , nor to reply to ) T. D. excuseth himself as followeth , viz. If any Quaker shall demand why I do not answer . Samuel Fisher 's Book against me , instead of writing against a new man ? I answer , that I am guided in my neglect by the judgment of abler Persons then my self , that that Book is but a Bundle of impertinent cavils , &c. Indeed this is a very easie way of answering , which , if we should deal so with T. D. what would he say to it , and to such neglect ? but this doth not clear himself from Samuel Fisher's Answer , but it stands over his head ; and if he was guided by abler persons then himself in not answering S. F. those abler persons for ought as appears might see T. D. so baffled and confuted , that it was in vain for him to strive any further ; and if abler persons then himself did advice him ▪ in that case he should have followed the example thereof , so as not to have meddled , as he hath done , to the further manifesting his weakness and folly ; and as for his instance of Biddles twelve Articles against the Holy Ghost's Diety , t is no president nor instance for us , as is most falsly insinuated against us , whilst we never denied the Diety or Divinity of either , Father , Word , or Holy Ghost ▪ And how doth he advise the Reader to be at pains to understand the positive grounds of the great Truths opposed by the Quakers , as he falsly saith ; what must give the understanding thereof , if not the Light of Christ within ? and how must sacred mysteries be known ? and what must bring to the right use of reason , and to understand the Scriptures , if immediate Revelation or Inspiration be supposed not attainable in these days ? Can the natural man with his natural understanding know the things that are spiritual , ( surely no ) or know the right use of the Scriptures without the guidance of that infallible Spirit that gave them forth ? no sure ; for it is the Inspiration of the Almighty that giveth understanding . And Seeing also that T.D. confesseth , that Reason tells us the Nature and Works of God are above our reach , and that God were not Gof if he could be comprehended by a Creature ; which , if so that the Nature and Works of God are above his and their reach and comprehension , why has he essayed so much by his natural understanding to define and distinguish the Godhead into three distinct Persons , which he has no Scripture for , nor yet Reason to demonstrate , nor Revelation to ground a Faith upon in that case , whilst the Presbyterians were wont to affirm Revelation to be ceased ? and to be sure God will not put the Seal of his immediate power to a falshood , as is confessed , so that whilst we have neither Revelation , Scriptures , Reason nor Seal of immediate Power for their Doctrines and distinctions put upon the Diety , we have ground at least to question them , if not positively to oppose them as unscriptural , irrational , implicite Doctrines and Traditions , which hath tended to vail both the glory of God , Christ , and holy Spirit ( which we confess ) from people . And now to T. D's definition of the word Person ; first , from Aquinas as being an individual substance of a rational nature ; but his worthy Friend Tho. Vincent hath denied the Father , the Word ▪ and the Spirit to be three Substances ; then I ask how they can be three distinct Persons ▪ whilst a Person is an individual Substance ? what contradiction is this ! But then T. D. saith , Some think it ▪ ( viz. Aquinas his Explanation of Person ) liable to some exception , and therefore he chuseth to borrow that of learned Wotton on 1 Joh. 1.2 . pag. 2. that a Person is an individual Subsistance or Subsistent , rather in an intellectual nature , or a several or singular thing that subsists by it self , &c. A Man we call a Person ; a Person notes some one endued with Reason and understanding ; which is several and distinct from another ; a Person is intire of it self , &c. pag. 1 , 2. Concerning which I query first , whether the Father , the Word , and holy Spirit be three several and singular things , that subsist each by himself , each one from another yea or nay ? Secondly , whether a man being a Person is a competent instance for proof of his Maker being three several Persons ? and whether a man subsists by himself ? Thirdly , whether Christ be several and distinct by himself from God ▪ and the holy Spirit several and distinct from both ? If yes ▪ where , or in what place of the whole world ( or out of it ) is the one entire and severed from the other ? and how far distant one from another ? Fourthly , And if the Father Son and Holy Ghost , do not subsist in a several and distinct nature of the same kind ( so as they are not three Gods ) as is confessed pag. 3. how are they three distinct or separate persons , subsisting each by himself ? These things being considered by the impartial Readers , the absurdity of the Presbyterians Doctrine and Comparison , touching the Deity , will easily appear . And what was this Aquinas ▪ quoted as T. D's Author , so much cited and commented by him , as a wise Observant , pag. 19 ? Was not he a great Writer for the Romish Religion , and the Pope's Doctrine of Transubstantiation ; and so a promoter of Popery in his time , and canonized 〈◊〉 Saint among them ? see his large Volums , his Sums , and others ; he is highly applauded by the Papists , as being an industrious Promoter of their Faith and Religion : and was he not a Dominican Fryer ? To whom it appears that T. D. is very much beholding for his Doctrine , [ of three distinct ( or sever'd ) Persons in the Godhead ] more then he is to Scripture ; for that is silent concerning it ; but I have of late Read it in Aquinas his Sums , who is Tho. Danson's wise Observant . And further ( mark ) that after T. D. has confessed , that the word Person cannot be properly attributed to Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , and that the Names common to God and the Creatures do signifie somthing wherein the Creatures bears some anology to God , and three Persons , not strictly , yet anologically in the Godhead , pag. 3 , 4. Where proves he this by Scripture ? and wherein doth man bear a proportion or likeness in his Person with his Maker ? this is strange Doctrine , importing that the Diety hath the resemblance or likeness of persons , but not properly ; which , if improperly , why do they stand so much upon their improper distinctions in the Godhead ? Yet , saith T. D. may this word Person be used by us to distinguish the Father , Son and Spirit in the Godhead , and one from another . Answer , So it appears he pleads for a liberty to put improper names upon God from his pretence of anology ; the Scripture he mentions Hebr. 1.3 . makes against him , it being , the express Image of his Substance , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; but as it is in some English Copies , express Image of his Person ; however , it is not the express Person of his Person , much less the express singular Person , or rational Substance , subsisting by it self , distinct from the Father ; For I and my Father are one , said Christ , and the Son doth nothing of himself , but what he seeth the Father do ; and the Father is in the Son , and the Son is in the Father ; and if so be that the Soul separated from the Body cannot be called a Person , as T. D. saith , pag. 2 , 3. how can he presume to call the Spirit , which is the Life or Breath of God a Person distinct from God , whilst God is never distinct and separate from his own Life ? But then it appears that T. D. is necessitated to call the Glorious Divine three in Heaven somthing ; and therefore he saith , that distinction in the Godhead cannot be apprehended by us by any other notion or resemblance , ( then Person ) and saith he , we know not what to call these three , but Persons , pag. 4. For the conception or notion that we have of the Father ( suppose ) as a Subsistent or Person is , in adaequatus conceptus in respect of the Divine Essence , &c. pag. 17. Reply , But by what doth he and his Brethren apprehend this concerning God , surely , neither by the Scripture not by immediate Revelation or Inspiration , nor yet by reason for that has failed them in this matter ; as also the nature and works of God is above their reach and the comprehension of the Creature ; so that their conceptions and notions being unscriptural , we have no ground to believe them , whilst we have but their conceptions , words and notions for what they say derived from Popish and Heathen Authors , and not from any immediate Power , Revelation or Scripture : and his saying , they do not know what to call these three , but Persons ; shews , they were hard put to it , as being necessitated to call them something : but , what are they ignorant of the Scripture ? or would not the Scripture satisfie them , and yet profess it their Rule ? they had better search the Scriptures instead of Aquinas and Aristotle , and see what they are called there ; viz. The Father , the Word , and Holy Ghost , which are One ; besides these three bearing record in Heaven , T. D. hath elsewhere called them Witnesses , pag. 5 , 7 , and 10. and thus he contradicts himself ; one while he knows not what to call them , but Persons , and another while calls them three Witnesses , ‖ from their bearing Record ; and thus in contradiction he knows what to call them besides Persons : but then he saith , all Witnesses ( properly so called ) are Persons : How proves he that ? Are not all things that bear record Witnesses ? Are Heaven and Earth Persons ? and are the Water and the Blood Persons , seeing they bear record in the Earth ? and is Conscience in a man a Person distinct from the man , seeing Conscience beareth witness ? if it be , how then , is the Soul distinct from the Body no Person , page 3 , 5. T. D. upon 1 John 5.9 . the Witness of God is greater referring to the Witness concerning Christ , verse 7. not to verse 8. for none of those Witnesses are God. Reply , And yet those Witnesses verse 8. are the Spirit , the Water , and the Blood ; herein T. D. hath denied the Spirit to be God contrary to their former pretence ; and so is come under that they have so unjustly charged us withal ; but we own the Divinity of that Spirit that bears record in the Earth , and know the Water and Blood which agree in one with it , to be therefore Spiritual , and of this water and Spirit a man must be born , or else he cannot enter the Kingdom of God , Joh. 13.5 . and by this Blood his Conscience must be sprinkled from dead works , who ever comes to enter the Heavenly Sanctuary . And we may further observe how dubious T. D. in his Work hath appeared from what he saith pag. 83. viz. If my Answers seem not so clear as the Objections , which I hope I need not fear , unless in the point of the Trinity , that being a Mystery ; so by that it rebates the sharpest edge of humane understanding , &c. By which the Reader may take notice , that he was conscious to himself , that his Answers in this case might not seem so clear as the Objections , and that he has but made use of his humane understanding ( and not of Scripture ) therein , the Edge of which is so rebated , and grown so dull , that it will take very little impression upon any that are in a right mind and understanding ; even none at all upon such who rely not , nor lean to their own understandings , but upon the guidance of the Spirit of Truth , which leads into all Truth ; which it appears he has refused and gone from , whilst he is now fain to make use of his humane understanding , and his own notions and conceptions , which are not grounded on Scripture ; and therefore we may not have our Faith imposed upon by them , as to accept of his humane conceptions and notions ( which cannot reach the nature of God ) for divine verities . And how says T. D. That infiniteness being a property of the Divine Nature , agrees to each Person subsisting in that Nature ; contrary to his worthy Master Vincent's saying , that infiniteness is not ascribed unto the Personality ? but such like confusion and conrradiction we have enough of from them . And indeed such nonsensical stuff , as is in both their Pamphlets , I have seldom met withal ; as one while T. D. saith , We do not affirm the Person in the Godhead to be finite but infinite ; another while T. V. saith , infiniteness is not ascribed to them : another while T. D. saith pag. 14. That they are one among themselves , only in respect of that wherein they agree not simply : What kind of oneness or agreement doth he reckon is in the Diety , if it be not simply ? Was there ever such darkness and confusion uttered ? and what blind Sophistry , and silly Logick and babling do these men use , and put upon the Immortal God ? whom with all their inventions , airy notions and vain conceptions they can never reach the knowledge of ; neither will , nor can their Heathenish Phylosophy , tearms of Aristotle , nor apostate Christians and Papists demonstrate or discover the Knowledge of either Father , Word , or Spirit to any people that want the knowledge thereof , but make them more dark and ignorant , and shut them up in more blindness , as they have a long time done . And his saying , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may by a metalepsis , yea must be rendred Person , or Subsistent , or some word to that effect ; and so tells that Just. Martyr applies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to Father , Son and Spirit ▪ pag. 17. Reply , Surely T. D. is put very hard to it to word his Doctrine by his Anology and Metalepsis for his distinctions of Persons , and his thereby rendring 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Person of necessity : Where proves he this , ( and those tearms by Scripture ? ) and if they signifie one and the same thing , why is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Hebr. 1.3 . and Chap. 11.1 . as well as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? As in Hebr. 11.1 . Faith is the Substance of things hoped for ; it is not Person of things hoped for ; the same word that is for Substance in that , is Hebr. chap. 2. verse 3. where it is [ speaking of the Son of God ] who being the brightness of his Glory , and the express Image of his Substance : Besides , what ever Authors or Fathers ( so called ) did put names , distinctions and tearms upon the Godhead which were either improper or unscriptural , we must believe the Scriptures rather then them . And do they count all Justin Martyr wrot One hundred & fifty years after Christ to be of equal Authority with the Scriptures of Christ and the Apostles ? Or might not ( probably ) Justin bring in some of his Philosophy , which is not Scripture ? And we do not read in the Scriptures either of three distinct Substances in God , or three distinct Persons ; for , where are they so rendred either in the Hebrew , Greek , Latine or English , in Scripture from the beginning of Genesis to the end of the Revelations ? But if they be not three Substances , as Tho. Vincent saith ; how doth T. Danson make 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 equivolent , or apply both to Father , Son and Spirit ? Is not here a manifest contradiction between these two Brethren unto themselves , and their own Doctrine in this matter ? As for T. D. his Discourse about satisfaction , there needs not much to be said unto it , for that the matter hath been answered before ; as also in part he assents to W. P. in what he hath said ; for he T. D. doth not affirm any impossibility of forgiviness without a plenary satisfaction made , [ as in the sence and notion some of them have ] &c. And though he knows some worthy Persons do deny W. P's Affirmative , yet he cannot joyn with them therein : He saith also , God is free in his determinations what attribute he will manifest , and in what degree and manner , and that between ▪ Justice and Mercy , and their effects , and all of his meer will interveens , &c. By all which , in a great measure , he hath confest to what W. P. hath writ in that case , though in contradiction to his Brother Vincent , as is evident . But where he speakes of Vindictive Justice that God might onely have manifested , when man fell , as he does upon the reprobate Angels or Devils , &c. Now I query then , Is this Vindictive Justice , that which Christ under-went at God's hand , ( and satisfied according to their Doctrine ? ) if they say it is ; where do the Scriptures say so ? or that God inflicted the same revengefull justice ( as I think they mean ) upon Christ , that he doth upon the reprobate Angels or Devils , and then make this the means and manner of full satisfaction for mankind ? let us have plain Scripture for this Doctrine ; was God's Love to man purchased by such revenge upon his innocent Son as he lays upon reprobate Angels or Devils ? or is it not rather blasphemous to suppose that Christ could ever be so far out of Gods favour , as to construe his Sufferings to the height of revenge as goes against reprobate Angels and Devils ? and doth not this also accord with T. V. his Doctrine ? whereas Chrit was the beloved of the Father , even his onely begotten , the Son of his Love , in whom his Soul delighted , and was always well pleased , both in his works and Sufferings , both in his life and death for Sinners ; but angry with the wicked , such as persecuted him and crucified him afresh unto themselves , as he was also crucified in Spiritual Sodom and Egypt ; such Adversaries God will be avenged of : but his pleasure shall prosper in the hand of his Anointed Seed Christ ; but these things T. D. his weak judgement ( as he confesseth it to be , pag. 18. ) cannot reach . And indeed in much of his Discourse about this matter , he has talked more like a Lawyer then a Divine ; and has brought several similitudes which will not hold in matters of such high concernment : But I shall not need much to take notice of his dark kind of reasoning in this particular , which proceeds but from his weak judgemnt and private conceptions , since the matter is answered elsewhere , and the extent of his and their Principles therein is further manifest , and handled about his ( and their ) Doctrine of Imputed Righteousness , and his Arguments for Sin and Imperfection in all , tearm of life : yet a little to some particulars I may observe by the way ( of this point ) after he saith , he shall give us his sence , confessing that Satisfaction is not a Scripture phrase , pag. 19. However , we will chuse Scripture phrase rather then T. D's weak judgment and conceptions therein ; having plenty of Scripture Phrases for pardon , forgiveness , remissions , ( upon a true Repentance . ) And I query what Scripture he hath for his explanation of Satisfaction ; viz. a compensation made to God for our sin by Christ doing or suffering , or both , Justice that is Vindictive ? p. 19. What Scripture hath he for these words and this Doctrine ? Is not this a confirmation to what is queried before concerning this he calls Vindictive Justice ? the same that God punisheth the reprobate Angels or Devils with , the same he reckons Christ to have suffered ; and so hath numbred Christ among reprobate Angels and Devils ; but yet another while Christ's being under the Law , Gal. 4.4 , 5. T. D. construes , as not lying barely in the smart of sence , but in the brand of infamy thereby set upon us , pag. 20. But then how was it the same revenge or punishment that reprobate Angels and Devils undergo , and Sinners deserved , which surely is more then the brand of infamy ? is not here manifest contradiction ? and did the brand of infamy proceed as revengefull Justice from God , or rather from the envy and injustice of the wicked against him . Again , he was not ashamed to call us Brethren , Hebr. 2.11 . that is ( saith T. D. ) Fellow Subjects , for being one in nature with us , he becomes one with us in an obligation to the same Law ; to which I say , if we are fellow Subjects , and one in nature with Christ , and he one with us in obligation , &c. and that the brand of infamy he underwent be set upon us ; then it is to be minded , first that such as be Christ's Brethren one in nature , and fellow Subjects with him are Sanctified , and not remaining in a polluted nature , nor yet in a sinfull imperfect state all their life time ; seeing both he that sanctifieth , and they who are sanctified are all of one ; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them Brethren , Hebr. 2.11 . Secondly , Fellow Subjects with Christ that are bound with him , and partake of his Sufferings , are not rebellious , nor disobedient to him or his Law , but faithfull followers of him , by whose Power , Aid and Assistance they are incouraged in their obedience and faithfulness to him ; and this is the effect both of Christ's Manfestation , Obedience and Righteousness to and in every one that believes . Thirdly , If Christ's condescension and union with his Followers , and their being Fellow-Subjects with him be the thing that Christ tenders to God for Satisfaction , as T. D. in his Answer intimates , then , if he had held to this we should not much have differed ; but how this agrees with their Doctrine for the continuance of Imperfection and Sin in all , ( covered over with a pretence of full satisfaction being made for them , which still leaves all in sin ) I do not yet understand , nor doth it appear how he and his Brethren can be reconciled herein . But whereas T. D. confesseth that Christ both by doing and suffering did satisfie , and that the satisfaction may be made as well Agendo as Patiendo ; therein hath he contradicted many of his Brethren , who lay it upon his Suffering and Death onely ; another while upon his under-going Vindictive Justice , as they call it , the same that is laid upon Devils . But then , if his Satisfaction be as well agendo as patiendo , whether or no he did do all in the dayes of his Flesh , in his own person , that was to be done for man ? or whether his work is not experimentally to be known and wrought in every man , for the destruction or ending of Sin and Trangression , before full satisfaction and peace be enjoyed with God ? seeing his coming in the likeness of sinfull flesh , was to Condemn sin in the flesh , that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us , that walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; and is not this Law Spiritual which we are bound to obey ? for can it be supposed that all mankind ( or the Nation of the Gentiles ) were bound under the Law that was given to the Jews outwardly . And then would it be good Doctrine to say , that we , or all Nations , were Fellow-Subjects with Christ bound under the Law of the Jews , which had the Shaddows of good things to come ? or is it not more meet to say that all ought to be subject unto the Law of Christ , the Law of Faith , the Law of he Spirit of Life in him , and that he was made a surety ( Hebr. 7.22 . ) therein of a better Testament , which is Spiritual , and the Righteousness of the Law which he fulfils within , is also spiritual and inwardly known ; its judgment , sentence and condemnation known inwardly , where sin is condemned in the Flesh ; seeing that the Commandment that was ordained to Life the Apostle found to be unto death in him , as it is in all that come to Life ; and is not this the effect of Christ's Coming , Obedience , Sufferings , &c ▪ and how can these things be experienced but by waiting in his Light and Spirit within ? and if Satisfaction consists as well Agendo as Patiendo ; are not Christ's inward and spiritual operations included in his doing or works for mans Salvation ? how then can man exclude them , and think himself wholy acquitted ( and yet in his sins ) by the Suffering and Death of Christ without ▪ as a full compensation and satisfaction in his stead ▪ And for whom was Christ a Propitiation , for the appeasement of wrath , relaxation of the Law , purchase of freedom from punishment , pag. 23. If it consist in his Personal Obedience and Suffering onely , without the knowledge of his work within ? then are not all men so free and acquitted for whom he did suffer ? and doth not this extend to all that were dead ? for he is a propitiation for the Sins of the whole world ; but this Presbyterians deny ; ‖ what effect then do they put upon Christ's Sufferings ; viz. that he suffered any otherwise then for a small select number ; ( accordding to their Doctrine ) whereas his Suffering was for all men , both Jews and Gentiles , ( who were dead in sin ) in regard of his confirmation of that Spiritual and Living Dispensation and Testament which extends both the Jews and Gentiles , which was promised to Abraham , which is to be believed and obeyed . But to T. D's matter ( for these things are out of the reach of his carnal conceptions . ) As concerning the precious Blood , which he confesseth to be the real Price that hath made a Purchase , 1 Pet. 18 , 19. I ask , if the effects of that Blood are not known within , in its purging the Conscience , and cleansing from all sin , & c ? And seeing he confesseth it to be the Blood of God , pag. 26. What Scripture hath he then to call it humane ? and doth the Satisfaction consist in humane Blood ? how then doth it satisfie Infinite Justice ? Is not humane Finite , according to T. D. and T. V. their Doctrine ? But if this Blood of God , which was shed for all men , have an inward effect in the Conscience , in order to the answering of Gods will , and his pure Law within , and thereby being to his satisfaction ; how can men continuing in their sins , truly plead they are fully acquitted at once without them , and they onely in the implicite belief thereof , received from the ridged ▪ Presbyters , rest satisfied in their sins all their life time ? And where doth T. D. prove his Doctrine of Christ's being holy by a true inherent righteousness of the humane Nature ? pag. 25. what Scripture hath he for this , or these Expressions ? was not his Righteousness from the Divine Nature ? and was it not Everlasting ? but is not that which is humane Finite ? And T. D. saying , that the Socinians vomit , the Quakers have now lickt up ▪ ‖ pag. 27. herein hath he spoken scornfully and falsly against us , which will not at all tend to convince Socinians , if they were as bad as rendred , but to that they can answer him . And his saying , the Elect , whilst Sinners in state : where proves he this , that the Elect are Sinners in state , seeing the state of the Elect is a sanctified and chosen state out of the World , and its wayes , chosen in Christ through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth , 2 Thes. 2.13 . the impossibility of deceiving the Elect is signified Matth. 24.24 . where the Calling and Election is made sure , they shall never fall , 2 Pet. 1.10 . And that Christ was made surety of a better Covenant , Heb. 7.22 . And came to do his Fathers Will , Hebr. 10.7 . And that his being a Surety is an Act of Grace , pag. 28. This we confess and own more then you that contend for Sin , for the Will of God is our Sanctification , and the better Testament and Covenant which Christ is the Surety , Mediator and Establisher of , is that of Righteousness , Life and Peace , wherein Sins and Transgressions are done away , and wherein true Believers live to God. And as for T. D. his so often comparing God to a Creditor , Christ to the Surety , and Sinners as the Debtors ; telling of God being considered as a Creditor , and as a private Person , pag. 32. But where doth the Scripture so call him . Reply , He does not speak from a true sence of God or Christ , or of Gods Covenant , but a Notion he hath learned by Tradition ; and as to Sinners , their case is worse then meerly Debtors ; they not onely owing obedience to God and Christ , but are disobedient and rebellious , as the case of Fellons , Traytors and other Malefactors is worse then that of Debtors ; yet Christ is our Surety , Mediator and Intercessor , to make agreement between God and man , and to deliver man from the Punishment and Wrath to come , [ by delivering from Sin , the cause of it , and destroying the Devil the Author of Sin ; ] not for us still to live in Sin , and daily both contract more Debt , and incur tribulation and anguish upon our Souls : Howbeit , the Wayes of God extend beyond T. D's comparison ; his Wayes are not as man wayes , nor his Thoughts as mans thoughts : for as the Heaven is higher then the Earth , so are my Thoughts higher then your thoughts saith the Lord , whose graciousness also to poor deceived lost man , for his restoration , is infinitely beyond mans legality and exactions ; as the Lord said , I will not execute the fierceness of mine Anger , I will not return to destroy Ephraim ; for I am God and not man , the Holy One in the midst of thee , Hosea 11.9 . But is there not perfect obedience now for men to perform ? must they all live in Sin and Imperfection tearm of life , and say all our Debts is paid ? and if all their Debts be paid , why are they not out of Prison ? ‖ Are not all that are in Sin and Bondage of Corruption in Prison ? and would it be glad Tydings to tell them that though Christ has paid all their Debts , and procured their release , and ransomed them , that they must not expect personal freedom out of Prison , nor out of their Chains and Fetters so long as they lived here ? or if one should tell the Slaves in Turkey that they are ransomed , and yet they must not expect personal freedom from their Vassalry and Slavery so long as they live here , would this be glad tydings ? no sure , but rather sad news ; and is just like these Presbyterians and Independants preaching to people , and the tendence of their Gospel , and pretence of Satisfaction , Redemption , Ransom , &c. whilst they hold none of them in Truth nor Righteousness , nor in the same Spirit that gave forth the Scriptures of Truth , and Testimonies of Christ or his Apostles . T. D. pag. 29. He is satisfied , and the debt paid too , by his Intercession , which being grounded upon his Satisfaction , supposes it to be what it pretends , full and compleat . Observ. Here it is to be observed , that notwithstanding this his Assertion of the Satisfaction [ both by payment and punishment ] being compleatly made , and the debt fully paid ; yet he confesseth to Christ's Intercession : but what does he ever live to make Intercession for , if all be fully done , paid , satisfied at once by Christ's personal subjection and obedience ; ‖ must there ever be an intercession for that which is already so fully and dearly paid for , ( as they reckon Christ hath done ) and God hath granted ? how will this hold consistent ? But then it appears , it supposes it to be what it pretends full and compleat , saith T. D. pag. 30. So here is now supposition and pretence put upon Christ's Intercession and Satisfaction ; what sorry shallow work is this ; but it appears . But to proceed from one that hath followed his own conceptions , notions , weak judgement and humane understanding ; as also one that by his Logick and Traditional borrowed Notions and Doctrines goes about to make People to believe that from him , that he hath no Scripture phrase for , as that of God being a private person , and other things . And therefore like a Lawyer is fain to patch up his work as well as he can , though in many things it be very inconsistant and repugnant to it self . And whereas our confessing Christ both in Life and Suffering to be a perfect and real Example , is so much struck at by these Priests and Professors ; ( we still withal confessing both to his Power and Living Effects through all ) and of all his Sufferings , Afflictions , Death and Life , which we reverently esteem ; touching which I testifie , in the Lord , that if Christ be not really owned and confessed , as he was a real Example , both in Life , Conversation , and in Patient Suffering ; neither the Fellowship of his Suffering , nor the Power thereof , is truly known or experienced ; for they who would partake of the Benefit and blessed Effects of Christ's Death and Sufferings , and yet will not own him for their Example , shall never enjoy him therein ; seeing that Christ also hath suffered for us , leaving us an Example , that we should follow his steps , who did not sin , neither was guile found in his mouth , 1 Pet. 2.21 , 22. Again , Forasmuch then as Christ hath Suffered for us in the Flesh , arm your selves likewise with the same mind ; for he that hath sufferred in the Flesh hath ceased from sin , that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the Flesh to the lusts of men , but to the Will of God , Chap. 4.1 , 2. Now the ceasing from Sin , and following of Christ's steps in the harmless sinless state , is the right use and end of his Suffering for man , and his Example to man. But then mark T. D's Doctrine as followeth , what an example and subject of Wrath and Vindictive Justice ( so tearmed ) he renders Christ , viz. T. D. pag. 36.4 . Christ when he suffered was not innocent , and when God required satisfaction of him , it was due from him ; Christ was guilty of our sin , when he suffered for it ; for guilt is but obligatio ad paenam , an obligation to undergo punishment , which Christ was under by contract , Hebr. 7.22 . Answ. It s no wonder that these Presbyterians , and those of their affinity accuse all Christ's Followers of being Sinners , and imperperfect all their life time , since that T. D. ( one of their Leaders or Chieftains ) hath accused Christ not to be innocent when he suffered ; saying also , Christ was guilty of our Sin when he suffered for it , which how false and blasphemous this charge is against Christ , I appeal to all sober and moderate Professors of Christianity , who have any real esteem and reverence to the Name of Christ and his Glory , and how contrary to plain Scripture-testimonies plentifully given of him , as being a Lamb , yea , the Lamb of God , which declared his innocency and purity , being without sin or guile , who offered up himself by the Eternal Spirit , a Lamb without spot to God , 1 Pet. 1.19 . chap. 2.22 . Hebr. 9.14 . Isa. 53.7 . Acts 8.32 . Now his being a Lamb without spot , and without blemish , manifests him to be a perfect Offering , and Sacrifice for Sin ; as also how guilt is more then barely an obligation to undergo punishment , being always imputed to the Transgressors and disobedient for sin , and not to Christ , Rom. 3.19 . Jam. 2.10 . 1 Cor. 11.27 . Deut. 19.13 . and 21.9 . Exod. 34.7 . Although t is true those chief Priests , false Witnesses , and Persecutors of Christ among the Jews , and such as accused him for a Blaspemer , they said also that he was guilty of death , Mat. 26.65 , 66. Mark 14.64 . whose example T. D. hath followed in accusing Christ of being guilty , and not innocent . But if T. D. should say he meant not that Christ was really , or inherently , or personally guilty of sin , but by imputation , and so not innocent , but guilty of our sins ; by this we may perceive then what he means by imputation ; that on the one hand an innocent person is made guilty , and is not innocent whilst he hath no sin , nor guile or evil in him : and so on the other hand , by their own rule of contraries ( contraria contrariorum ratio ) persons are to be reckoned imputatively righteous and innocent in God's sight , whilst there is neither righteousness nor innocency really in them , which is both unreasonable , unscriptural , and apparently false . It was a false imputation of the persecuting Jews and Tho. Danson to impute guilt of sin to Christ , and to accuse him with not being innocent , when no sin , evil , nor guilt was in him ; and it is as false an imputation of theirs to impute Christ's Righteousness to sinfull persons , who are not in it , nor partakes of it , in them ; so it s neither God's imputation nor Christ's ; for had Abraham no righteousness really in him , when his Faith was reckoned to him for righteousness ? where then was his Faith , and the righteousness and obedience of it , if in reallity he was not a partaker and an enjoyer thereof within ? from whence did his acts or works of real obedience proceed and flow , if not from his living Faith , and its righteousness within ? Surely they are of very mean capacities that cannot see T. D's absurdities ignorance in these matters ; And his vain imaginations and conceits about imputation further will appear , and that the stress and drift of all his and his Brethrens work in these invented Doctrines ●s to keep people ▪ in their sins and imperfections all their dayes , and so their work in rendring Christ the subject of guilt , and so of vengeance that belongs to Devils , and their rendring people the subjects of his Righteousness and Justification by imputation , whilst unjust and sinful in themselves ; it all centers in their sinfull Doctrine for sin and imperfection term of life . Pag. 37. As to T. D's telling of the Son of God's Incarnation , the creation of his Body and Soul , the parts of that nature he subsisted in , &c. To this I say , if the Body and Soul of the Son of God were both Created , doth not this render him a Fourth Person ? for Creation was in time , which contradicts their Doctrine of Three distinct Increated , Co-eternal , Co-essential Persons in the Deity ; seeing that which was created was not so : but herein whether doth not his and their ignorance of the only begotten of the Father , and their denial of Christs Divinity plainly appear yea or nay ? where doth the Scripture say that his Soul was created ? for was not he the brightness of his Fathers Glory , and the express Image of his Divine Substance ? But supposing the Soul of Christ was ( with the Body ) created in time ; I ask , if from Eternity he was a Person distinct from God and his holy Spirit , without either Soul or Body ? and where doth the Scripture speak of any Person without either Soul or Body ? le ts have plain Scripture . Pag. 38. Whilst T. D. grants our actual freedom from sin and wrath depends on what Christ did and suffered , as on and upon its means ; what becomes of his Doctrine and Pleas for sin and imperfection which they that continues in term of life cannot be truly said to be Actually freed from sin , nor yet imputatively righteous in Gods sight , whilst actually and really sinfull : And if Christ's obedience was not intended to exempt us from a personal obedience to the Law , as is confest in pag. 38. then it s contrary to the end of his Obedience to live in sin and disobedience term of life , and for any to be reckoned imputatively righteous , when actually disobedient . Secondly , And if we be only so far made righteous by Christs Obedience , as unrighteous by our own disobedience : how far is that ? have we not been actually unrighteous , and shall we so far be made righteous by Christ's Righteousness ? Is not this more then your Doctrine of Imputation ( whilst personally sinfull ) amount to ; but your flat contradictions in these matters are evident . Pag. 39. And though Christ is our Surety , this doth not exempt us either from following him , or walking in the Way of God ; but the more ingage us therein ; and herein we know acceptance in the Beloved of God , in that holy conversation which his pure Law within enjoyns , without obedience to which God is not well pleased , nor satisfied on man's part , though he was even well pleased and satisfied in his own Son , both in his doing and suffering ; the benefit whereof they only receive who believe in , and obey him in his Light within : and to such only he is the Author of Eternal Salvation , as do obey him ; though the free proffers of Gods Love in him towards all mankind , God commended his Love to us , in that whilst we were Sinners Christ died . So that we do faithfully acknowledge the Love and Goodness of God in Christ , and would not at all have it diminished or suspected , nor yet have Christ's Offices , Works , or end of his coming brought into question ; however we do oppose mens confusions and misapprehensions concerning God , Christ's Righteousness , Faith , &c. which none rightly know , or apprehend , but they who are led by the Spirit of God. And now touching Justification by Imputed Righteousness , where it is known in reallity , we never denied or opposed , seeing that where God imputes or reckons righteousness as he did to Abraham , and still doth to his Seed of Faith , that hath a real sence and enjoyment of it , as every one hath , that is in the exercise of the true and living Faith : But we do still oppose and deny the vain Conceits and Imaginations of the Presbyterians , Independants , and all of their affinity touching their false Imputation and Justification to sinful and wicked men , ( whilst such ) which he that justifieth is abomination to the Lord , as he is that condemneth the Just. Pag. 39. But whilst T. D. grants that the word Justifie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the Hebrew Hitzdik signifies Justum facere : By this he hath contradicted himself , and much of his Brethrens work ; for Persons being justified whilst the Subjects of Sin and disobedience ; for if 〈◊〉 Justifie be to make Just , then t is a real work effected by the Spirit of God , Sanctification and Justification being inseparable Companions , as T. Vincent hath confessed , which is not their imagined Justification , nor pronouncing men righteous whilst they are really unrighteous ; for whilst such the Spirit of God doth both condemn and accuse , and not justifie them in any thing contrary to its own nature ; neither is it truly said that men are made Just while they continue unjust and Sinners . Secondly , if the word Impute 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 properly signifie to cast account ; and the Hebrew Chashab signifies to think , imagine , and reason , &c. as T. D. saith . Then first , if it hath relation to Gods imputing righteousness to the Believer , the account he casts therein must needs be true ; for he doth not account wicked men righteous . Secondly , If Impute signifieth to think , imagine and reason : as to imagining , it cannot have relation to God , for his Account is beyond Imaginations , and his thoughts above mans thoughts ; and then it is not safe nor true in man to depend upon his own thinking , or imagining , or imputation ; for where God accounts a man righteous , his Spirit doth evidence it beyond thoughts or imaginations ; for many imagine and think themselves righteous , when they are unrighteous ; as there is a Generation that is pure in their own eyes , yet are not clensed from their filthiness : and when Christ's Righteousness is esteemed any ones , it is not without the works of her own , as it is falsly asserted pag. 39. no more then Abraham's Faith was without its own works or obedience . Pag. 40. T. D. Argues first from the proportion which our justification by Christ's Righteousness bears to our condemnation by Adam 's sin ; but our condemnation was by imputation of Adam 's sin ; therefore our Justification is by the imputation of Christ's Righteousness Rom. 5.19 . Reply , This Condemnation that is come upon all men , is because all have sinned and partaken of the fall , being in Adam in the Earthly state , really bearing his Image , and this is not a thinking or imagining a condemnation from , or for an imputation of Adam's sin , ( according to their notion of it ) but really a partaking of the disodience of one upon all ; every man shall die for his own iniquity , the Soul that sinneth , it shall die , &c. And if our Justification by Christ's Righteousness bears a proportion to our Condemnation , then must we as really partake of Christ's Righteousness , being converted , as we have of sin being unconverted ; and this is not a thinking or imagining our selves righteous , but a true enjoyment and bearing his Image , and being conformable to it , as really as we have born and been conformable to the Image of the Earthly , 1 Cor. 15.47 , 48 , 49. T. D. Argues secondly , from the proportion of our being made righteous bears to Christ being made sin ; but Christ was made sin by imputation ; therefore so are we made righteous , 2 Cor. 5. ult . for he was made sin for us , who knew no sin ( i. e. by an experimental knowledge of its operation in himself he did no sin , 1 Pet. 2.21 . ) that we might be made the righteousness of God in him . Reply , Here T. D. hath but brought over his old Arguments long since answered and confuted by that Servant of the Lord S. Fisher , as may be seen at large in his Book Rusticus ad Acadaemicos ; which T. D. J. O. and their Brethren could never answer ; this I mention , that people may perceive his matter to be neither new , nor more profound then it was many years ago , when it was confuted by Truth : And if our being made the Righteousness of Christ bear●● proportion to his being made to be sin for us , when he knew no sin by its operation in himself , nor did sin ; then it follows by this proportion that we are made ( or rather thought or imagined ) to be the Righteousness of God in Christ , whilst we neither knew his Righteousness , nor experienced his work in our selves , nor did righteousness ; which is altogether false , and contrary to the Apostles Doctrine and intent , seeing that it is Christ in whom is no sin , that we are made Gods Righteousness , having experienced the new Creatures state in Christ , which in him is created unto good works , which God hath ordained we should walk in them , 2 Cor. 5.17 , 18. Ephes. 2.10 . and this is more then thoughts or imaginations of being righteous , or in Christ ; for it is in truth and reallity , which admits not of your imagined ▪ applications , or claiming an interest in that which you are out of , and which is none of yours in the true enjoyment . And if the word Impute , hath relation to Justification and Justifie , signifie Justum facere , then W. P's definition thereof is true , being that which expresseth what is personally enjoyed , and not imagined , and this was no Cavil , as Tho. Danson falsly saith page 41. T. D. God admits of what Christ did on our behalf , as if it were our Personal Act , pag. 41. Reply , This is his apprehension of the Sureties payment of the Debt , as appears before , which is a very easie put off , to evade personal , or real and perfect obedience on the Creatures part ; but it will not be so accepted of God , as the end of Christ's Obedience ; seeing that it was to make man righteous , as his condemning Sin in the Flesh was , that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us that walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; which righteousness fulfilled in us T. D. formerly said was to be meant in Christ's Person , and not in ours , by which likewise he hath both excluded man from the real enjoyment of Christ and his Righteousness , and from that obedience and sanctity which he requires , and answers the end of his coming and manifestation ; and by this means the Professors have made the Law and Commands and Teachings of God ineffectual as to the Creature , whilst Christ only is made the subject of them , and not man ; and this gives a liberty to people to live in sin all their time , and to pervert Gods Laws , and neglect the teachings of his Grace , and vainly to excuse themselves in their disobedience , like as T. D. hath done ; as where the Grace of God and his pure Law requires perfect obedience from us , and that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts , and that we should live godly , righteously and soberly in this present world ; now if any man should say , that this was not intended to us , but to Christ , as if God did require him to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts , to forsake all sin , and live righteously , when he never did nor could sin , nor had the Prince of the world any thing in him ; this would be a strange put off , and gross perversion of the Law of God , to lay it all upon Christ , and put it from themselves : whereas Christ's Example is perfectly to be followed , and where he is manifest , and his Life brought forth in man , there is a conformity to his Heavenly Image , and not a living in sin , nor to the lusts of the world , but to the Will of God. Pag. 42. But as to T. D's confessing to the Creditors cancelling the B●nd , letting the Debtor out of Prison , giving a legal Discharge upon the Sureties payment of the Debt , as he could have done upon his personal payment . First , Hereupon I do enquire , if man that hath been in Prison and bondage under sin and corruption be let out of that Prison upon Christ's Obedience ? if he be , then he must not remain in personal bondage all his life time , from partaking of Christs Righteousness and Obedience ; for if he be released from the servitude of sin , and be let out of that bondage , then he is made free from it by the Law of the Spirit of Life , to serve , obey and walk in the Law of Righteousness by Faith ; and this is not an imagined fixion or conceit of Freedom or Justification , whilst people are in real bondage , which your Doctrine tends to keep people in . Though it be true , as amongst men , that the Act of one Person may by contract , or Act of Law become the Act of another , as the Sureties payment of the Debt is accepted for the Debtor ; yet in this case it doth not reach the real and full intent of Christ's Coming , Obedience and Righteousness , which is to bring man into his Image , and to fulfil the righteousness of the Law in man , that he may follow his Steps , and have the same Mind , Spirit and Righteousness in him that was in Christ , that he may walk after his Example in all purity and holiness of conversation . Yet so far as releasement out of Prison is imported in the comparison , or any thing tending to a real Deliverance of the Creature out of Sin and Corruption , and so from Condemnation , it may be admitted of so ; for then it contradicts their pleading for sin and imperfection term of life : and surely God doth not legally declare any to be righteous , whilst his Spirit and Law within reproves them for sin , and declares them unrighteous ; for God and his Spirit do not contradict one another ; neither doth God declare people to be out of Prison , whilst they are really in bondage to their sins , lusts and vanities , as the carnal Priests and Professors have falsly done ; but the Liberty which Christ proclaims to the Captives is really to be injoyed and received by every one that believes , and receives him , his Message and Testimony . And this is not a false Imputation , or an imagined Application of Righteousness and Freedom to People in their personal bondage of Sin and Corruption , such as T. D. and such false Guides have led people into . And that of Ezek. 18.20 . the Son shall not bear the iniquity of the Father , T.D. saith , Imports Gods gracious recession from his right , because of their more then ordinary Audacity in charging his Ways with inequality : This is his false construction . For God sheweth his Way to be equal vers . 25 , 26 , 27. which is no recession from his right , as his condemning such as turn from righteousness , and Justifying and giving Life to such as turn from wickedness ; for both Graciousness , Mercy , and Judgement are his right , and he rewardeth every man in Righteousness according to the Equality of his Wayes . T. D. Nor doth God Justifie what is opposite to his pure Nature in Justifying a person who in himself is impure upon the righteousness of another imputed to him . Reply , Is not a person that is in himself impure opposite to God's pure Nature ? Surely purity and impurity are opposite ; and whilst the impure Person is rendred the subject of Justification upon another's righteousness imputed , he then it seems is accounted pure by T. D. and not opposite to God's pure Nature , though he be personally impure ▪ but surely God doth not then account him pure , whilst in impurity ; for God cannot lye , nor account as the Wicked and Hypocrites do , who are pure in their own eyes , though not washed from their filthiness ; and here we may see T. D. and his Brethrens false notion and conception of Imputation and Justification , and how contrary it is to Justum facere , which the word Justifie signifieth , as by him before confest , ( viz. to make Just ; ) when now he falsly renders an impure person not opposite to the pure Nature of God , from his notion of Imputation and Justification in that state . Pag. 44. Arg. 3. Sin came not by Imputation , but by actual Transgression , [ This is laid down as the Quakers . ] To which T. D. Answers , The sin of Adam was made his Posterities by Imputation , Rom. 5.12 , 14. Adam was a common Root of Mankind by nature . Reply , Herein hath he perverted the Scripture , which doth not say that the Sin of Adam was made his Posterities by Imputation ; neither doth he hereby prove his notion of Imputation of Righteousness to impure persons ; for sure he cannot prove that all Adam's Posterity were pure , and sin not actually theirs , but only imputed to them whilst not partakers of it ; this is contradictory , and as false as their Imputation of Righteousness and Justification to men whilst unjust ; but the Scripture he mentions Rom. 5.12 . saith , As by one man Sin entred into the World , and Death by Sin ; so Death past upon all men , for that all have sinned ; ( mark that ) for until the Law Sin was in the World , but Sin is not imputed where there is no Law , verse 13. But now ( mark ) there is a Law transgressed , whereby Sin and Transgression is imputed to them that are guilty of transgression , as all in Adam , in the earthly state and nature are ; and therefore on the other hand righteousness is not imputed to persons out of Christ , or to such that are not partakers of his righteousness . Pag. 45. Arg. 4. Quaker . A man cannot be said to be actually sinfull , and imputatively righteous ; he may as well be said to be actually damned , and imputatively saved . To which T. D. answereth ; Why not ? as well as to say a man is actually poor and not worth a groat , but imputatively rich , as having by Surety paid his debt of thousands . Reply , Here he hath plainly discovered their notion of Imputation , and the falseness of it , ( viz. ) that a man is imputatively righteous when actually sinfull , or actually damned and yet imputatively saved : what gross Corruption and Ignorance is this ? and what an improper Comparison doth he bring to back it ( let the wise judge ) and we do not admit of it in this case ; as that a man should be actually damned and imputatively saved , or actually guilty and yet imputatively innocent , but that such to whom righteousness and true riches are reckoned as being theirs , have right therein and are partakers thereof ; and what he asserts herein by his simile is but a beging the question , and taking that for granted which is still opposed as both unscriptural and unreasonable ; viz. men being actually damned and imputatively saved , or actually guilty and imputatively innocent ; by the same reason he might as well say , persons really Theeves are innocent , or persons really and actual trecherous and rebellious are true and good Subjects ; or actually Devils and imputatively Saints : But Christ being or becoming our Suerty was not to impute righteousness to men in transgression , but to bring them into Covenant and Peace with God , which stands in everlasting righteousness , and not in sin ; for he was also a perfect example to be followed as well as profest ; and he is the Surety of the new Testament and Covenant which is spiritual , and is manifested and enjoyed in his people . And T. D's instance [ that nine men throughout a mutinous Army are actually guilty , and yet imputatively innocent ; when the tenth man is admited to sustain the punishment due to the rest ] is as sottish and impertinent as the rest before , for neither is a mutinous Army innocent , nor is Christ any of the mutinous or guilty Persons . And where proves T.D. that Imputation is an Act of Law and makes a Relative , and not a real change ? I ask what Law it is an act of ? is it real or true , or no ? if it be of God it must be true ; if not , then false ; and it is a false imputation which is not real , and contrary to the Apostles Doctrine , who knew that Abraham's Faith was imputed or reckoned to him for righteousness , and to that state to which there was no condemnation ( but justification ) which was a state of being & walking in Christ , and not a walking after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; and this they that experience and witness , know a real change from death to life , from condemnation to justification , from sin to righteousness , from the wayes of death and darkness to the wayes of Life , Light and Peace . Pag. 45. T. D. saith , There is no need of inherent Righteousness for Justification , bu● yet there is need of it for other ends , as to make us meet for Heaven , Col. 1.12 . Answ. It appears that he means by this inherent righteousness that of Sanctification , ( or the work of Gods Spirit within ) which he afterwards calls personal righteousness ; and is there no need of this for Justification ? what darkness is here ! as if men were justified while in the unsanctified state ; this is like the rest of his sottish stuff ▪ quite contrary to the Apostles Doctrine , which is , But ye are Sanctified , but ye are Justified in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ , and by the Spirit of our God , 1 Cor. 6.11 . And also what contradiction hath T. D. brought to himself herein , whilst he hath confessed , that the word Justifie signifieth to make Just ; as also he hath confessed that inherent Righteousness , as he call it , gives a fitness of enjoying the Heavenly Inheritance , it lying in Communion with God , pag. 46. then it follows , that it gives a fitness for Justification , whilst Justification and Sanctification are unseparable Companions ; and God loves his Image in his People freely , saith his Brother T. V. Thus without Washing , Clensing and Sanctification men are not Justified , seeing the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God , and they that live in unrighteousness cannot be accepted of him ; It being not the Hearers of the Law , but the Doers that shall be Justified . Pag. 46. And now concerning good works that are acceptable to God , which T. D. accuseth us with placing Merit for Justification , or as a deserved cause thereof , &c. Concerning this particular , that faithfull Servant of the Lord S. Fisher hath very fully answered T. D. and his Brethren ; and it hath been manifest how he did wrong and abuse S. Fisher about this point ; and how contrary to his intent he construed good works , as being ours , relating to self works , or imperfect obedience , which S. Fisher never intended , but with Relation to those works which are perfect , which Christ is the Author of , ( which if Christs Works be not deserving , whose are ? ) and to those which God hath wrought in us , who having ordained Peace for us , hath wrought all our works in us , Isa. 26. now we never placed a merit upon self-acting , nor upon mans best works in the faln , sinfull and corrupt state ; so that there is not a correspondency betwixt us and the Papists in this particular , as falsly we have been accused ; see S. Fisher's Rusticus ad Accademicos , where the point is fully explained , which you Presbyterians and Independants are never able to answer . Where did we ever profess or hold forth , that we were able , or could fulfil the Law our selves , or merit or deserve Salvation by any thing that we could do ? but we do profess and witness , that through the Power of Christ we are enabled to faithfull and sincere obedience , not of our selves , knowing , that good works ( how ever rejected and undervalued ) are ordained of God , and without them your faith is dead , as a body without a Spirit is . And it is true enough , as T. D. saith , That you are averse to obedience through corruptions ; who plead for sin term of life , and yet would cover over all your filthy raggs with a pretence of Christ's Righteousness , Satisfaction , Imputation , Justification and Merit , whilst you are yet in your sins and corruptions , and in the weakness of your flesh , but as under the Law of works ) wherein you are in no perfect obedience . Pag. 47. Seeing the Law of Faith is acknowledged , I ask , how far it extends , whether to enjoyn to the perfect obedience of Faith , yea or nay ? seeing sin and corruption is so prevalent amongst you , and so contended for , surely where the excercise of the true and living Faith is experienced , there is obedience to the Law of it ; or else what doth it signifie whilst persons remain in disobedience ? Further , T. D. confesseth , that we have an immediate dependancy upon God in our operations , John 15.5 . without me ye can do nothing , ( Siorsima me ) separate or apart from me . It s well he hath at some time assented to the Truth ; but how doth this contradict the greatest part of his own and his Brethrens work elsewhere , in their pleading for imperfect obedience , and their imagined imputation of Righteousness and Justification to the unrighteous and unjust ? for those operations which have a relation to an immediate dependence upon God , which he that is in Christ doth experience and bring forth , do accord with the mind and will of God , which is the Sanctification of those that believe , and with that most holy Faith which purifies the heart ; and these are not imperfect , nor to be slighted as undeserving , according to the vain notions of Priests concerning Faith , its works and inherent Righteousness , as they term it . Pag. 47. T. D.. Their dependancy upon Christ in all the good they do , is as near and intimate , as the Branches upon the Vine by vertue of their natural union in bearing Fruit. Answ. This is also a Truth that grants a perfect obedience in them that have such a near intimate dependency upon Christ , as the Branch hath that grows upon the Vine , by vertue of the natural Union thereof ; this also contradicts their pleading for imperfection and sin in all obedience and works , which also shews that they do not flow nor spring from Christ the true Vine , as also , that they have not union with him , nor are Branches of him ; and indeed how they have not immediate dependency upon God in Christ whilst they deny Immediate Teaching , Revelation and Divine Inspiration to be attainable in those dayes . But seeing without , or apart , or separate from Christ men can do nothing ; how then can they be any thing without him , as righteous , or acceptable , or justified ? For men must be something in that Relation before they can do any thing acceptable ; and it is the Spirit and Power of Christ which sanctifieth and maketh just , and bringeth into the true Obedience , Works and Righteousness of Faith , and to live by Faith , as the Just doth . Pag. 48. But Faith as a work is not opposed to ( nor excludes ) it self , as T. D. saith , because in one sence it is opposed to the deeds of the Law ; for true Faith , as a Work , is the Work of God , which is not opposed to it self ; besides , it being the work of God , to believe in Christ , this hath not relation to those deeds of the Law that the Jews wrought out of him , and out of , ( or besides ) that Faith wherein they fell short of the Righteousness of the true and living Faith , and of the perfect Obedience or Righteousness of the Law. Now seeing he confesseth pag. 49. to a righteousness bestowed upon men by Faith ; I ask , if that man is not a partaker and enjoyer of that righteousness by Faith ? Surely Faith and its Righteousness are not separate nor divided . Also he confesseth , Faith in God , through the Messias is called a walking humbly with God , Micah 6.8 . To this I say , whilst he thus considereth Faith as such a walking ; were it not very gross nonsence and contradiction to say that it excludes it self , as before ? or that those works or effects of Faith , ( viz. ) Walking humbly with God , were opposed to the Faith it self , which is the Root thereof ? But this is even like T. Vincent's affirming Faith to be opposite not only to the works of the Law , but to its own Works . Pag. 51. I find T. D. upon James 2.24 . doth not distinguish betwixt the Works of Faith , and the Works of the Law , and so talks like an ignorant blind Guide , with his vain babling , and perverting of the Scripture to exclude perfect Obedience and Perfection from the Believers . And seeing he granteth , that Justification imports the Absolution of Sinners , and the Approbation of a Believer ; which he distinguisheth betwixt : Then it is to be minded , that a Believer , that is approved of , is absolved , being Justified ▪ and what from , if not from Sin and Transgression ? Otherwise Faith that stands but in a bare profession , without a living work of purifying the heart , overcoming the World , &c. is but a dead Faith , as T. D. in fine confesseth . And we are Justified by works , as our Faith is made perfect by works , James 2.22 . but these are not the works of the Law , but the Works of the Living Faith , which manifesteth Fruit to God , and demonstrates the nature of the Living Faith : But his telling of a Sinner being Justified in the sight of God ; where doth the Scripture say so ? he quotes Rom 3.23 . to prove it , but it doth not ; but only that a man by Faith is Justified without the deeds of the Law , which deeds of the Law a man may be Justified without , and yet not a Sinner , nor without the Obedience , Works or Righteousness of the True and Living Faith which Purifieth the heart , and Justifieth from all those things from which they could not be Justified by the Law of Moses . And as to his saying , That we are made free meritoriously , by the Law of the Spirit in us , from the Law of Sin and Death : ( The word meritoriously , he addeth ) But the freedom of the Law of the Spirit in us from the Law of Sin and Death , we do confess ; and that it is the same Law of the Spirit of Life that is in Christ and the Saints , according to the Apostles Doctrine ; the Freedom of which we testifie is of Everlasting worth ; for that it is not wrought by our selves , but by Christ and his Law and Spirit . Pag. 52. T. D. saith , That we observe that the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in the Persons of the Saints . Indeed we do observe it , believe it , and experience it , and do not wholy put it off from us , to be fulfilled in the Person of Christ , as T. D. and some of his Brethren have corruptly done ; though we do confess that the Righteousness of the Law was fulfilled in Christ's Person ; but not therefore to exclude it out of us , since that he was a faithfull Example to be followed , as well as a Captain and Leader to guide in all the Wayes of Peace and true Holiness . Pag. 52. And as we do observe that the Righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in the Persons of the Saints , contrary to T. D. and his Brethrens observation , and thereupon not only suppose , but really assert a state of Freedom from Sin attainable in this life ; we do not place the Merit of Justification upon the Creatures imperfect obedience or works ; but origionally on the Spirit of Truth , and its perfect work , in which Spirit Christ perfectly obeyed , offered up himself a Lamb without spot to God ; and we know that it is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ that makes us free from the Law of Sin and Death , Romans 8. which Freedom is effected with in . Pag. 53. If there be a connexion between Justification and Sanctification ; and that the same Christ Jesus that Justifieth by his Blood , Sanctifieth by his Spirit , as is confest , ( from Calvin , &c. in Loc. 2. ) then men are not Justified whilst in an unsanctified state , seeing , that it is also evidenced by a holy life ; but then herein T. D. seem doubtfull , as rather enclining to lay it upon the active obedience of Christ ; but then is not he that is Sanctified and Justified , being in an holy life , a partaker of Christ's Righteousness , Obedience , and Subjection in the Spirit of Life ▪ and the pure Law of it ? seeing that makes free from the Law of Sin and Death . But then he wavers again to the understanding of some who suppose the end of Christ's coming into the World is , that God's Righteous Laws might not be absolutely contemned , but might be observed ( though imperfectly ) by Believers ; others , ( saith he ) of the Imputation of Christ's Surety , Righteousness , &c. This imperfect observation of God's Righteous Laws is that he would fain center in , and which indeed the tenor of most of his discourse amounts to , though it be not the end of Christ's sending into the World , nor yet the work of the Spirit and Law of Life within ; for the end thereof was to destroy sin , and to work mans perfect freedom from it , which they that experience are only the true and real subjects of Christ's Righteousness , and know the true imputation thereof , and effect and real benefit of his being a Surety of the new Testament , wherein the Promises of God are fulfilled to and in man , and man brought under the obligation of that Law and Covenant which tends to the exaltation of Truth and Righteousness in the Earth , and the bringing the Creature into a perfect and peaceable subjection unto its Maker : So Christ's being both our Surety , Advocate , Intercessor and Mediator betwixt God and man , is to make both Unity , Reconciliation and Peace betwixt them ; a Mediator being not a Mediator of one , but betwixt two , &c. to bring into mutual agreement . T. D. Our good and our evil works are not perfectly contrary , for our evil works are perfectly evil , for , malum fit ex quilibet defectu , any one defect make our works evil , but our good works are but imperfestly good . Answ. If good works and evil works be not perfectly contrary , where and what then are the good works , whilst defect and imperfection is pleaded for , which makes them evil ? Surely good and evil are perfectly contrary ; but by this man's consequence , there is no good works whilst defects and imperfections remain in them ; and then why doth he call them good works ? It appears he gives them that name which is improper to them ; but if good works be really acknowledged , as we know they are in Scripture , and that they that are truly so , are wrought in the Light , and so in God , these are perfectly contrary to evil ; but such T. D. & his Brethren with their sins and imperfections are strangers to , whilst they shew themselves to be out of the Light wherein the good works are wrought : and as to the condignity he speaks of , ( or worth ) as with relation to the infinite reward , we do , as before , place it in that Heavenly Image , Spirit and Life which brings forth the good works which were ordained of God , and it is that Spirit which leads its Followers to the infinite reward of Life and Salvation . Arg. 4. Rom. 2.13 . Not the Hearers of the Law are Justified before God , but the Doers of the Law shall be Justified ; to this T. D. saith ; The words give a reason of the Jews perishing who had the Law , ( viz. ) the old Covenant . Reply , The reason of their perishing was their Disobedience unto the Law ; but this , of the Doers of the Law , wherein both the Just and Justified state is intimated , according to the Gospel , verse 14 , 15 , 16. relates to those Gentiles which had not the Law outwardly , and yet did by nature the things contained in the Law , which the Apostle renders as a reason and proof of their Justification , who shewed the Work of the Law written in their hearts , which Law was pure and Spiritual , converting the Souls , and here it is also evident , that the matter or things contained in the Law , they had both in Power and Operation , who had it not in the Letter of it ; but the extent of this is and hath been much opposed by T. D. and such as he , who have grosly perverted the Scriptures for their own sinfull and corrupt ends to their own and others destruction . And now that a state of Freedom from sin is attainable in this life , this T. D. erroneously sets down as an Error , and argues against it as followeth . Arg. 1. If no meer man ever attained to any such state , then it is not attainable , but no meer man ever did , &c. Answ. His term meer man is his own , and not ours ; what he means by meer man , is a question ; for it may be taken variously , as first , he may be deemed a meer man , that is , without God , Christ or the guidance of his Spirit , who lives to himself ; in which state we never said that freedom from sin was attainable by any meer man ; for without Christ we can do nothing . Secondly , if meer man be taken singly , as purus homo , or man purely or intirely without mixture of those things which are either contrary to him , as Man , or not proper to his being Man , ( as sin and transgression were improper to him ) for so he was in his first Creation in Innocency and primitive Purity ; as so considered , to deny him Perfection , or Freedom from sin , were to deny him that which God did invest him with whilst he was in his Maker's Image , which was proper to him , and to which Christ comes to restore man again out of the Fall : But then T. D. explains what he means by meer man ; viz. such as the eminently holy Persons in the Scriptures , whom he denies to have ever attained a state of Perfection ; by which he has accused all the holy Men of God at once , as but meer men , in the worst sence ; and such were they that were carnal , and walked as men , 1 Cor 3.3 . and he hath therein both opposed God's Commands , Promises , and Works , as also the end of Christ's manifestation , which was perfectly to restore man out of sin and unrighteousness unto God , see Gen. 3.15 . Rom. 16.20 . Deut. 6.5 . and 10.12 . and 11.1 . and 13.18 . and 19.9 . Matth. 22.37 . Mark 12.30 . Gen. 17.1 . Deut. 18.13 . 2 Sam. 22.33 . Psal. 18.32 . and 37.37 . and 119.1 , 2 , 3 , 4. Isa. 1.16 . John 13.8 . Isa. 4.4 . and 60.21 . Ezek. 36.25 , 26 , 27 , 33. Jer. 33.8 . Hebr. 8. and chap. 10.13 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17. Zeph. 3.13 . Hosea 14.3 . Joh. 17.11 . Tit. 2.24 . Ephes. 5.25 , 26 , 27. 1 John 3. 1 Cor. 2.6 . Col. 1.28 , 29. ch . 4.12 . 2 Tim. 3.17 . James 1.4 . But what sin or sins he can charge upon either the holy Patriarchs , Prophets or Apostles that they were not freed from perfectly before their decease , this he hath yet to shew and evince to us , concerning all them that died in the Faith , who finished their Testimony with Joy and Peace . T. D. Arg. 2. That there is a continual need and use of Faith and Repentance in th●s life ; therefore , &c. Answ. That there is a continual need of Repentance , this I deny ; for true Repentance , where it is wrought , and the fruits of it brought forth , this is unto Salvation never to be repented of , and is attended with a real forsaking of sin and transgression , this is beyond your fained repentance humility , which is still to be repented of , as the sins of your best performances are : also True and Living Faith purifies the heart , and is the Saints Victory , and the exercise of it through that Divine Power and Love by which it works against temptations and the fiery darts of the Devil , after the mind and heart is cleared from sin and pollution : it being one thing for man to sin , and another Only to be tempted to sin ; so that it is a falsehood to say , that there is a like reason for a continual need of Repentance in this life , as there is for the use of Faith ; neither doth that 1 Cor. 13. ult . prove that Repentance abideth with Faith , Hope and Charity , as falsly T. D. reasons ; might he not as well say , there is the same reason for repentance to abide , that there is for Charity to abide , seeing that Faith , Hope and Charity abide ; whereas Charity is the Bond of Perfection , Col. 3.14 . and Love is the fulfilling of the Law ; and the end of the Commandment is Love out of a pure Heart , which positively opposeth T. D's sinfull Doctrine for sin and imperfection , which tends greatly to pervert people , and to keep his Hearers in unbelief , whilst he doth not only deny that ever any attained to perfection but affirms Freedom from Sin not attainable in this life , which is his gross ignorance and unbelief of Christ and his Power , which is greater and stronger then the Devil and all his attempts , and is able to overcome him , and to destroy his works ; and in this Power of Christ the Faith of the Righteous stands , and this we contend for against the Devil and all his sinful Agents , who thus mannage and maintain his work . And how falsly is it for T. D. pag. 56. to say , that Charity or Love suits our present imperfect state ; [ as he also saith , Faith and Hope doth , ] whereas Charity or Love which is the Bond of Perfectness , and is known in the pure heart suits that State which is of its own nature , as Perfection and Purity is , which is also effected through the true Faith that purifies the heart , and that hope which he that hath purifieth himself even as he is pure , 1 John 3. which admits not of sin and imperfection term of life ; for he that abideth in Christ sinneth not . And as to that of Phil. 3. Not as though I had already attained , or were already perfect ; to which T. D. saith , He denies in one verse what he affirms in another ; if the word perfect be in both places understood in the same sence , verse 12.15 . To vers . 12. I say , that Paul did not say that Perfection was not attainable in this life ; neither doth it appear to be his judgment , for then why should he follow after , reach forth , or press forward unto those things before , and plainly say , Let us therefore , as many as be perfect , be thus minded ? Whereto we have already attained let us walk by the same Rule : Brethren , be followers together of me , and mark them which walk so , as you have us for an Example , vers . 15 , 16 , 17. Surely he was not an Example of sin and imperfection , but of purity and holiness ; yet notwithstanding he then both expected and believed a growth in the Spiritual and Divine Understanding and Apprehension of that for which he was apprehended of Christ ; so the Perfection he had not already ( then ) attained , relating to such an apprehension as he speaks of , doth not exclude that state of Perfection and integrity that he was then brought and apprehended into of Christ Jesus , as to the Purity and Righteousness which he was a partaker of in Christ ; for the Child of God its growth in Strength , Wisdom and Spiritual Vnderstanding doth not render it sinfull or impure in the nature and properties of it , but rather shews its Purity and Innocency the more in that its truly capable of such a growth . Page 56 , 57. But then , when is this freedom from Sin , or state of Holiness ( which T. D. saith will be in a proper sence perfect ) attainable , if not in this life ? T. D. The Saints shall be invested with it at the Resurrection , called , The Resurrection of the Dead , Metonimically , in the Life to come indeed we shall be like God. Reply , By this we may understand that he has put off Freedom from sin from all Gods People till the life to come ▪ and not only so , but till this Metonimical Resurrection ( according to his terms ) which he may understand is not as yet to any of the deceased , though the Life to come that 's Everlasting , ( as intended ) is by the Righteous enjoyed after this life . I do not intend here to dispute his terms of the Resurrection , but admitting it in his sence , my end is to shew how he has excluded all the Saints both deceased , and yet remaining , from a state of freedom from sin , as not being yet attained to it , if this Resurrection he intends be yet to come ; and then , where are they in the mean time ? where are their Souls ? where are their sins and pollutions and imperfections , if all be yet uncleansed and not freed from sin ? will not T. D's Doctrine herein meer , and be one with the Popes touching a Purgatory ; for if none be perfectly cleansed here , and yet none come to God , or into his Kingdom unclean , they must be clensed somewhere ; he should have told us the Place of Purging , which is not in the Grave , not in Hell , not in the Pit ; and it must be before Heaven be entred into ; what place then between both , if T. D's Doctrine must be owned for Catholick on Authentick ? but , who is it that are not meer Papist , or that have nor drunk up his corrupt Doctrines , that cannot see him , his Popery , Ignorance , Confusion and Error herein . And what Popery he hath at unawares run himself into , is now obvious . And Matth. 5.48 . Be ye therefore perfect , even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect ; to this T. D. saith , Such Commands are the Measure of our Duty , not of our Attainments in this Life . Reply , Thus he perverts and diminisheth the righteous Commands of God , as if God had either required a thing not attainable ; or as if being perfect , as he is perfect , were but the measure of our Duty , and so to be put off till the Life to come , wherein the Saints had not such Commands given to them , seeing they are not capable of sinning in the Life to come ; but John said , As is he , so are we in this world , 1 John 4.17 . And herein they knew their Love made perfect ; and this is more then either the small resemblance of Children to their Parents which T. D. speaks of , and beyond his imperfect sinfull state and Doctrine ; for the perfect Love which they had , was in them a perfect resemblance of God , who is Love , verse 16. But this way of T. D. his slighting and diminishing , and falsly interpreting the Commands of God , which require such perfection , only as the measure of our Duty , is like his Brethren , saying , That a Child of God , his not committing Sin is to be meant , he doth not make a trade of Sin ; which indeed is a very easie way they have taken to pervert the Commands of God , and to give ease and liberty to the Transgressors in their sins ; as if when a thing is absolutely required of them , they should put it off with this , It is meant only as but in part to be obeyed ; and so if they should deal thus with God , and say , Lord , then requires us not to Steal , or not to commit Adultery , or not to Covet ; but we are to understand it , as that we cannot altogether abstain from Stealing , Adultery or Covetousness , only we are not to make a trade of these things , nor wholy make it our business to be imployed in them ; what acceptance do they think such a Plea would have before the Lord ? and what Answer would he make them to this their corruption ? and what resentment would such Doctrine have in the minds of sober people , if they should preach them , and give such meanings to the Scriptures ; and tell them that where Stealing , and Adultery , and worldly ●usts and Covetousness are forbidden , that they are not to go to the extent of the Commands , but only not make a trade or a common practice of Stealing , or these things & c ? for thus they have dealt with many of God's Commands enjoyning perfect Holiness and Righteousness ; but then they have an easie way to lay all upon Christ , as having paid their debt , and fulfilled the Righteousness of the Law in his Person in their stead , so that they must not expect its fulfilling in their persons ; for where the Scripture speaks of its being fulfilled in us , we are to understand by in us , that it is in Christ's Person ; and this is the manner of their course from time to time , both to shut Christ his Works and Righteousness out of People , so much as in them lies . 1 John 3.9 . Whosoever is born of God doth not commit Sin. T. D. saith to this , We may interpret it , as he is born of God he doth not sin ; every Child of God is mixta persona , ( Pag. 57. ) as our Law sayes of the King , consists of an old and new nature ; and so his new nature is Principium quo , the Principle from which he acts graciously ; and the old nature , the Principle from which he acts sinfully . Reply , Here again he hath palpably perverted plain Scripture , and contradicted the Apostle John , as may be seen in that 1 John 3. For he that is born of God , who doth neither commit sin , nor can sin , because he is born of God , has put off the old nature , and is not acted by that Principle which leads to act sinfully , because he cannot sin , and that gracious Principle in him hath overcome the sin , and the nature of it ; and so to tell of his being mixta persona is T. D's gross blindness : For first , that which is born of God , that overcomes the World , is not mixt with sin , nor with the old sinful nature . Secondly , He , or whosoever is born of God , whose Seed remains in him , who abideth in Christ is not acted by that old sinful nature , because he is born of God , and abideth in Christ , in whom is no sin , neither is mans having divers parts , as Body and Soul , &c. or his being liable or not liable to death , any reason to shew that he that is born of God doth act sinfully from the old nature ; for the Bodies of the Saints were the Temples of the Holy Ghost ; and their Bodies were sanctified , and so brought into subjection unto the Divine Spirit or Principle in them , so as they might glorifie God in their bodies , and in their spirits , which were his . Again , T. D's meaning to that first of John 3.9 . is , That it may intend the manner of sinning , so the 8 th verse seems to limit it ; be that committeth sin is of the Devil , for the Devil sinneth from the beginning ; the Comparison ( quoth he ) is not between the act simply , for then it should have been said only , for the Devil sinneth , but from the beginning , implies a Comparison between the manner of man's sin and the Devils , in respect of which he is said to be of the Devil , because he immitates his example , who from the day he began never ceased to sin , nor ever did one truly good action . Observ. By this we may gather T. D's limitation put upon that of 1 John 3.9 . and the Comparison he makes between not the act simply , but the manner of mans sin and the Devils , still taking it for granted that he that is born of God doth sin , and acts sinfully from the old nature , but not in that manner as he that is of the Devil , who intimates his example ; so that his meaning and comparison seems to amount to this , that he that is born of God doth sin , but not always , or not as the Devil sinneth , he is somewhat better then the Devil , in that he doth some good actions , but the Devil doth none . Reply , Surely our opposer hath come off but very poorly in his arguing for the Devils work , contrary both to the state and testimony of such as were born of God , whom he hath here very meanly debased , and sadly abused the Scriptures , misrepresenting Gods Children whom he by his Eternal Power hath delivered from the power of Sin and Satan , and given them a Heavenly place in Christ , where the Devil cannot come , and in whom the Prince of the World hath nothing , nor his sinfull Ministers any part or interest whilst they plead against God's Promises , holy Commands , and against the very end and purpose of Christ's manifestation , as T. D. and his Brethren have done , wherein they have shown themselves to be Antichrist's Agents and Ministers , and not the true Christ's . Now touching Christ's Enlightning every man , whose Light we affirm to be saving ; this is set down as an Error by T. D. he and his Brethren denying the Light of Christ , in every man , to be Saving in its own nature and property , which we do affirm it to be ; but that he enlightens every man to Salvation , I do not remember these to be our words , as T. D. lays them down , who also begins with a meer falshood against us , saying , That the word Christ is a meer blind to delude the ignorant ; for the Quakers denying Christ to be God , they cannot own him for the Author of Illumination . Answ. This is an apparent Slander cast upon us , as our Books and Writings do shew , that we never denied Christ to be God , or his Divinity ; still affirming , That in the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God , and the Word was God , and that in him was Life , and the Life was the Light of men , and that was the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the World , as in John 1.1.4 , 9. Now to detect us as being in an Error herein , T. D. urgeth Ephes. 2.12 . that at that time ye were without Christ , having no hope , &c. which is no proof that they had none of Christ's Light in them , though they then did not experience him their Hope ; nor were come to the Covenant , being without God in the World ; in which state they were Strangers and Enemies in their minds , the mystery was hid from them , the Light was obscured from their understandings , it shined in darkness , and the darkness comprehended it not ; but it doth not follow that the Light was not in them , because they were without God in the World , no more then it follows that God is not in the World , because the World knows him not ; whereas its plain , that he was in the World , and the World was made by him , and the World knew him not , John 1.10 . and seeing Christ as God is acknowledged to be the Author of Illumination , his illumination is Divine and Spiritual , and therefore saving to them that believe in it ; and God's Presence filleth Heaven and Earth ; neither can Darkness it self , nor the Deep , nor Hell hide or cover man from the Presence of God , nor yet obscure him from the reach of his Spirit ; Whether shall I go from thy Spirit , or whether shall I fly from thy Presence ; if I ascend up into Heaven , thou art there ; if I make my Bed in Hell , behold , thou art there ; if I take the wings of the Morning , &c. Psal. 139. Yet still I grant that there is a state in which all are ignorant of God , and in which the Mystery , to wit , Christ within , the hope of Glory , hath been hid from Ages and Generations , but is shewed , revealed and made manifest to the true Believers in his Light , who said , Believe in the Light , that you may be the Children of the Light ; and Christ said , I am come a Light into the World , that whosoever believeth in me might not perish , but have Eternal Life ; and this we testifie to , against all Opposers of his Light , as it is in every man. Pag. 59. And where T. D. argues that the Gentiles for a time had no Promises of Christ ; therefore knew of none , and consequently had not a Light , or Knowledge sufficient to bring them to Salvation . Reply , What time was that the Gentiles had no Promise of Christ and how long was it ? Was not the Promise of God after the Fall ( that the Seed of the Woman should bruise the Serpents head ) of a general extent , as well towards Gentiles as Jews ? For was not Adam and Eve the first Parents of both , to whom this Promise was made ? Secondly , The Promise that was made to Abraham whilst in the uncircumcision , did not this relate to the Gentiles as well as the Jews , see Rom. 4. and Galat. throughout ? And thirdly , Was not Christ's Death for all , still a confirmation , or evident Testimony to the fore-going Promises and Covenant of God towards both Jews and Gentiles ? but , and if there was some time or Ages in which the Gentiles had no Promises of Christ , and therefore not a Light sufficient to Salvation , according to T. D. then it follows that none of them in that time , or those Ages could be saved ; and why ? but because God did not afford them a sufficient Light , which assertion and consequence lays the blame upon God ; but the falsehood thereof , who is it that know the Scriptures that cannot see ? Again , where he puts Light for Knowledge , herein he doth not reach our Principle , for many have a true Light in them , that are not come to the true Knowledge ; for it is the Light that shines in the heart that gives the knowledge of the Glory of God , 2 Cor. 4. so the Light is there before the Knowledge is given ; and in that its able to give that Knowledge , it is sufficient to save . And where he brings 1 Tim. 3. ver . last , for proof , That the Gentiles neither had , nor knew any Promises of Christ for a time , where ( he saith ) God manifested in the Flesh , and as such , preach'd unto the Gentiles , are made two parts of the Mystery of Godliness , which in other Ages was not made known unto the Sons of men , as it s now revealed to his holy Apostles and Prophets , by the Spirit , &c. Where note , first , that this manistation of God in the Flesh , and preaching unto the Gentiles , is no proof that either they had no promises of Christ before , or that they had no Light in them sufficient to salvation ; for if so , then all Gentiles in all Ages before that time were condemned for want of saving Light being given to them ; which were a gross errour to assert . 2dly , As to the manifestation of the mystery of God and Christ , I grant that it was more large and open in the Apostles days then for Ages before , as also , that was made manifest then , which was hid for Ages and Generations ; yet still it doth not follow that the Gentiles before had not a Light sufficient to save , or to manifest the mystery of Godliness in some degree . 3dly , But yet T. D. his arguing against the Gentiles having a sufficient Light before Christ's coming in the flesh ; however , if we could grant him his plea ( which we cannot ) it doth not follow that now the Gentiles , or the whole world , hath not a Light sufficient given them , since Christ is so come manifestly , testified as God's Salvation , prepared before the face of all People , being a Light to the Gentiles , and his Testimony so signally confirmed , as it hath been also both by his works and sufferings . But yet the better to inform our Opposers of the Light , let them read John 1. where speaking of the Word that was God , that made all things , it s said , In him was Life , and the Life was the Light of men , verse 4. and this Light and Life of men which proceeds from the Word , though it was before Christ's comming in the Flesh , yet it was still the Light and Life of Christ born witness of , and more fully manifested through his coming , or being sent in the fulness of time . Pag. 60. T. D. The Father is said to hide the object , because he did not enlighten the subject , i. e. to hide the Gospel , because he did not enlighten their minds with the saving knowledge of it . Answ. This his Because is grounded upon his former Error , for the cause of hiding the mysteries of God's Salvation and Kingdom , is mens opposing and resisting his Light and Spirit in them ; so the cause is not originally in God , though he gives men up to their darkness and unbelief when they have rejected his Light ; but it is the god of the World that hath blinded their minds from ●●eing the Light of the glorious Gospel of Christ , 2 Cor. 4. and the natural man 's not receiving the things of the Spirit , 1 Cor. 2.14 . doth not prove that he hath no Light of the Spirit given to him , or in him though he , as such , cannot know the things of the Spirit , his knowledge and discerning being but natural , yet that a man in that state may be changed in his mind and understanding by that which is Spiritual , is evident ; for if he were not convertable , what would preaching to him signifie ? and what is it in him that can answer to , and receive the Spiritual Testimony of Truth and Salvation ? Pag. 61. To Jo● . 1.9 . That was the true Light which lighteth every man , &c. T. D. answers , Christ being spoken of before , as the Messias , we must therefore understand the place , I think ▪ not of natural Light , but supernatural ; not of the Light of Reason , but of the Light of the Gospel , &c. Reply , This is enough , he has confessed sufficient to break the neck of his own Cause , and his Brethrens , who have affirmed the Light in every man to be insufficient , as but the Light of Nature , of Reason , of Natural Conscience , &c. but now he thinks it is not Natural ; but Supernatural , the Light of the Gospel &c. which must needs be saving : It s well that at length , after his dark oppositions against the Light , both at the Dispute we had with him , about ten years ago , at Sandwich , as also in his silly confused Pamphlet , stiled , The Quakers Folly ; but it were well if he would retain those better thoughts of the Light in every man its being Supernatural , the Light of the Gospel , &c. and then he will not oppose the Quakers , 〈◊〉 he hath done , but that whilst he follows his thoughts , and doth not come to be directed by this Light in him , he proves wavering and uncertain in his thoughts ; for in his following distinction between being Lighted and Inlightened , he renders Inlightning , as to the Eyes of the Vnderstanding ▪ from Eph. 1.18 . but Lighted , as when Candle is carried before us , as a Blind man , P. 62. which Comparison is impertinently , and very improperly brought in this matter ; for he was not speaking before of an outward Light , as that of a Candle before a Blind man ; for it is absurd amongst men to offer a Blind man a Candle to light him , or shew him his way into a Room , when he is out of all capacity of seeing or receiving any benefit by it ; but thus T. D. renders Christ's lightning men , when before he granted it to be Supernatural , the Light of the Gospel , wherewith the Mesias enlightens men ; which as it is not outward and natural , so it is only seen and known inwardly and spiritually : But then T. D. to come off saith , The meaning can be no more then this , that whosoever are enlightened are enlightned by him : What a silly shuffle and evasion is this , from his former granting that it was every man that cometh into the World that he enlightens , when now , but in the very next page it is , whosoever are enlightned are enlightned ; and a little before that , many that are lighted are not inlightned , but are like a Blind man , so lighted , that sees never the better when a Candle is carried before him ; so , by this he makes God's offering men Light neither to be of any effect to them , nor yet like to be , if they can have no more benefit by it then a Blind man hath by the Light of a Candle . What then can be God's end in lightning them ? what doth it signifie to them , if they be so wholy uncapable of seeing ever the better ? Doth he then bid them look , bid them walk aright in the strait Path ? and doth he condemn them for not walking therein , when they are altogether uncapable of it , as from Sight or Light sufficient , as his Comparison before implies ? Alas , alas , what a cruel unjust and unequal Master would this render God ? and how unlike to himself doth it represent him whose Wayes are equal , Love universal , and Grace free ; ( who first gives Light within , and opens the Eye within , before man can walk aright ) however his Light within be gainsayed by such Blind Guides , as T. D. who are but in their thoughts , vain imaginations , and notions , knowing what they know naturally , and preach for Doctrine mens Traditions . Pag. 62. Rom. 2.15 . T. D. saith , touching those Gentiles that shewed the Work of the Law writ in their hearts , That it cannot be understood of a Saving Knowledge ; and it is not the Law in their hearts , &c. ( but yet a little after confesseth ) that the Law may be said to be in their hearts , in their understandings , &c. Reply , How then were they excused according to the Gospel ? and how then did the Apostle bring them as a Proof of Justification ? verse 13 , 14. Could they be Justified without a Saving Knowledge ? But of T. D's ignorance in this much have been manifested both by S. Fisher , and some others . And how saith he in page 63. That the Gentiles in this sence had not the Law in their hearts ; ( viz. ) a sutable disposition to the Law , as his words are ? what nature was it by which they did those things contained in it ? how was it unsutable to the Law ? or how could that do those things contained in the Law without a sutable disposition to it ? Surely , a mean understanding may perceive T. D's ignorance and Error in this particular as well as in the rest ; for the Law of God in their hearts was Spiritual , and so was its effects in them ; and that nature by which they obeyed it , was not opposite to it , but in unity with it ; which nature was contrary to that in the Jews which led them to break and violate the Law of God ; But as for those Gentiles that liked not to retain God in their Knowledge , Rom. 1.26 . and those that said to God , Depart from us , we desire not the knowledge of thy Wayes , Job 21.14 . These Instances do not at all prove that those Gentiles which obeyed the Law of God wanted a surable disposition to it ; for this was in the rebellious state that they said , depart from us , and liked not to retain God in their knowledg ; howbeit , this proves ( against our Opposet ) first , that some knowledge of God was afforded even them that liked not to retain it . And secondly , that God was nigh them that said to him , depart from us ; and that also he would have afforded them the knowledge of his Wayes ; and also it is evident that they were troubled , condemned and reproved by his Witness in their Consciences , or else , how should they say depart from us , if he never came nigh them , nor ever touched their Consciences ? or why should they say , we desire not the knowledge of thy Wayes , if the knowledge thereof was not tendred to them ? And further , If so be that the Gentiles ( as confessed ) were those in whom that which might be known of God was manifested and shewed unto them from the Creation , to the being of God and his Eternal Power , which discovery did leave them without excuse ; what was it that brought them to this understanding of the Eternal Power and Godhead from and through the Creation ? was it Spiritual yea or nay ? surely this clear sight and discovery in them did rise from that which might be known of God , that was manifest in them : and if this had not a sufficiency in it to save , how were they left without excuse ? surely the fault was not to be laid upon God , nor on his Light in them , but to and upon themselves for disobeying it , and not liking to retain him in their knowledge . And seeing Christ is confessed , page 63. to be set for a Light to the Gentiles , Isa. 49.6 . which , saith T. D. is but a Prophesie of the Gentiles mercy in the time of Christ's actual exhibition in the Flesh. However , this Mercy is of a large extent , and for ever to be prized , as in the fulness of time it is more manifest then before ; and now especially since it is thus openly declared and manifested , it ought not to be thus opposed and slighted by men of corrupt minds which affirm it is an error to say that Christ enlightens ever man that cometh into the World , and yet at length are forced to confess it , as in these words ; viz. That it is Supernatural , the Light of the Gospel , of the Messias , &c. And thus they are confounded and broken to pieces , and their wisdom turned backward by this convincing Light , this stumbling stone , this Rock of offence , which they cannot avoid stumbling at , and falling upon and breaking to pieces , who set themselves against it , and bring forth their vain imaginations to eclipse its glory , as too many of this Generation hath done . And now touching the Scriptures being a Declaration of the Word of God , but not the Word , nor the only Rule of Faith and Life ; which T. D. sets down as an Error , wherein he hath no less then accused the Scriptures themselves with being Error . For , first , we in calling them a true Declaration , we call them what they call themselves , Luke 1. as also that they are Writings given forth by the holy men of God ; and that which they call the Word , we do also , the Word was in the beginning with God , John 1. and his Name is called the Word of God , yet both the Doctrinal part , and Historical part of the Scripture , contained in the Books of the Old and New Testaments we own , and never sleighted nor denied ; yet if we should look upon them as the only Rule of Faith and Life , this would exclude the Rule and guidance of the Spirit ( for the only Rule must be infallible , certain , incorruptible , obvious , &c. ) which leads into all Truth , as either not sufficient so to guide , or not to be owned as the Rule of Faith and Obedience to God , &c. and this would be contrary to the Testimonies of the holy men of God concerning it , who followed it , and directed others to it , and to walk in this Spirit , and therein they knew their several attainments and measures , and herein was the Rule of the new Creature , who worshipped not in the oldness of the Letter , but in the newness of the Spirit , Rom. 7.6 . 2 Cor. 10.13 , 14 , 15. Phil. 3.15 , 16. Gal. 6.15 , 16. And we know that without the guidance of this Spirit of Truth men can never come to a right judgment nor understanding of the holy Scriptures , or Spiritual things . And how then doth T. D. go to prove the Scripture to be the Word , and the only Rule of Faith and Life , whilst he hath granted , that to bring a testimony of Scripture concerning it self , were petitio principii , a begging the question , and were insignificant for their conviction which deny its Divine Authority . What course then will he take to convince such ? seeing he himself doth but follow his notions , conceivings , and humane understanding , while Divine Revelation , and immediate Inspiration are laid aside and opposed in these dayes by such as he : Pag. 65. he saith he will give a taste of our Arguments , and leave our tenents to the judgment of the understanding , &c. What understanding and what Judgment must be the Guide and Rule of mens judgements and undertandings , if the Light within must not be the Rule ? for after he hath asserted the Scriptures to be the only Rule of Faith , presently he hath put himself upon a Hanck , and shakes his own Foundation , in confessing the Scriptures insufficient for the conviction of such who deny its Divine Authority ; otherwise , it s but a begging the question , to go to prove the Scriptures by themselves ; and now what he will erect as a Rule instead thereof , for the conviction of such , whilst he hath opposed the Light within , and asserted the insufficience of the Scriptures ( shewing them not to be the only Rule ) is questionable whether he knoweth himself , if he doth , let him tell it to them that desire it . And Pag. 66. It is to be observed , one while he tell us of the Judgment of the Vnderstanding ; another while the matter contained in the Scriptures was the Rule before it was committed in writing , and that the Gospel was preached to Adam . And again , when they affirm the Scripture to be the only Rule ; its intended to them who have the Scriptures , and not to them that have them not , Pag. 67. And presently after we must understand this point with connexion with the former , the Light within : So do but mark what confusion here is : First , 't is his own confession that the matter contained in the Scripture was before it was written : Secondly , That to them who have not the Scriptures something must be the Rule ; and what , is it the Light within , having no other way as he saith ? Now , if the Light within and the matter contained in the Scriptures be a sufficient Rule to them which have them not in the Writing , surely , its sufficiency is not diminished by the writing , but rather testified unto ; neither is it the intent of the Scriptures to draw people from either the matter , or Light within , which opens them , nor to set up Scriptures as the only Rule instead thereof . But then saith T. D. that very Scripture , Rom. 10.8 . speaks not of the Light within , but of the Scriptures . Answ. It speaks of the very same Word which Moses and the Prophets spake of which was before the Scriptures were written ; in Moses's time much of them was unwritten , and yet he directed the people to the Word ; and the Apostle called it the Word of Faith which was nigh them in their mouthes , and in their hearts : but saith T. D. It is not the Light within , but the Scriptures , as if he should say the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament were in their mouthes and hearts ; but this Word of which they give testimony , was in the hearts of all the holy men of God , that gave forth the Scriptures before they writ them ; and it was a Lamp to David's feet , and a Light to his path ; and he hid it in his heart , that he might not sin , &c. Psal. 119.11 ▪ & verse 115. and the Word is for ever setled in Heaven , verse 89. this was that which quickned sanctified and saved the Righteous in and thorow all Generations , and of this the Scriptures or Writings do testifie ; in which are words of God , but the Word was before they were spoke or writ . And T. D.'s accusing the Quakers for not owning the Authority of the Scriptures , is false , for we are in the Spirit that gave forth , and openeth , and brings to the right use and end of them , and in the same Spirit can and do make use of them , not only to prove our Tenents , and to Confute our Opposers , but also to obey and practice the things contained in them ( which are truly moral and Christian ) as the Spirit of Truth doth direct and enable . T. D. We are not now to expect any new discovery of Truth , as to the matter revealed , but only as to the person whom God enlightens gradually to discern the evidence of what is revealed in Scripture . Answ. First , If no new Discovery , then what is in Scriptures ; then no need of Popish and Heathenish Authors to prove distinct and separate personal Subsistances in God , nor any other such traditional distinctions which obscures the simplicity of Scripture Truth , and darkens the minds , of People , but people should rather be referred singly to the Scripture Phrase and Language , and to search them in the Light of Christ within . Secondly , if the discerning of the Scripture is from God's enlightning them , people ought to be recommended to God , to wait in his Light to know his Counsel and direction therein , or otherwise they will remain ignorant of the Scriptures and Revelation of the things declared . Again , it s well that T. D. confesseth that there are Prophesies and Histories of things done before the Pen-mens birth , as also personal experiences , &c. So now at length he doth a little assent , to Truth , as if he were a little convinced by S. Fisher's Answer to him , that he doth not now bind up all to the Scriptures , but confesseth that Prophesies , Histories , and personal experiences to be before the Pen-mens birth : But herein he hath but manifested his uncertainty and wavering to and again , one while opposing the Sufficiency of the Light , and placing all upon the Scriptures as the only Rule , another while upon the matter contained in the Scriptures , which was before the Scriptures were written , and was written on the heart of the Gentiles ; another while the Light within he seems to assent unto , as in pag. 67. for them that have not Scripture ; another while Prophesies and Experiences where before the Scripture ; and thus at length the Spirit or Light that gave forth the Scriptures must be preferred as the most certain and universal Guide and Rule ; as indeed it is to all them who follow , obey and believe in it ; and this Light the blind , corrupt imaginary Teachers ( whose knowledge and profession is but natural and traditional ) cannot corrupt , as they have done the Scriptures by their false glosses meanings and private interpretations contrary to the intent and end of the Spirit of God which gave them forth , and which leads into all Truth and Righteousness : for a further Answer to T. D. touching this matter , I do refer the Reader to S. Fisher's Book , titled Rusticus ad Accademicos . And as for his accusing Quakers with error touching Baptism and the Lords Supper , ( as to their ceasing ) and setting up the appearance of Christ within , &c. Answ. The one Baptism , Ephes. 4.5 . into the one Body , 1 Cor. 12.13 . and the eating , drinking and supping with Christ at the table of the Lord in his house and Kingdom we own and experience ; but what Baptism it is he intends , whether sprinkling Infants , or John's Baptism , he hath not discovered ; neither indeed doth it concern him now to make such a frivolous pudder against the Quakers upon this account ; for indeed , we do not look upon him either as a true Minister , nor as having a call either from God or man , as one impowered to impose things he calls Ordinances ; its probable , when he was Parish Priest at Sandwich in Kent , in Cromwel's time , he could shew a greater force for his impositions then now he can in Houses and Corners , where he and his Brethren can creep , and not only so , but be ready to obscure and hide themselves , if but a little Storm and Trial come : He stiles himself sometime Minister of the Gospel at Sandwich ; ‖ but is not rather that report of him true , that there he was given to Gaming , Bowls , and Nine-pins , & c ? But as to the appearance and enjoyment of Christ within , we do confess him to be the Substance , and the Living Bread , and in him we are kept not only in a Living remembrance , but also in a real Possession of the Power and Vertue of his Life , having known a conformity to his Death , which is more then a remembrance of it ; and we know him to be the enduring Divine Substance , which ends all Types , Shaddows and Figures , and his Coming , and Appearance in the Flesh , wherein he went through the Types and Shaddows ; as Circumcision , John's Baptism , observing the Passover at his Supper , and his Sufferings , did make way for his coming in the Spirit , as he consecrated a new and living way through the Vail , that is to say his Flesh : now the coming of Christ , until which , his Dispiples were to shew forth his Death in the observation of the figure ; this coming they did not put afar off , as our Opposers yet do , how long they know not , it being already above Sixteen hundred years since ; and yet this his coming is still put off : whereas the Disciples , after they were with Christ at his last Supper , were Witnesses of his coming after his Resurrection , and also of his Spiritual Coming and Revelation in their hearts , and now to suppose that what the Disciples did to shew his Death , was till a third Coming , not yet manifest , is to overlook the two former as no Comings , as also to render Christs own words and Promises ineffectual , who said , Verily I say unto you , there be some standing here which shall not taste of Death till they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom , Matth. 16.28 . Mark 9. Luke 9.27 . And as to 1 Cor. 11.23 , 24 , 25. wherein the Apostle repeats what Christ did the same night he was betrayed , in giving the Bread and Cup to shew his Death till he came , &c. However T. D. construes this , it doth not prove the figurative or outward part or sign to be imposed as of absolute necessity upon all . Believers , till some other coming of Christ , not yet come ; for his coming in the Spirit T. D. owns not to be the end thereof ; but where then is the mystery and inward and Spiritual Grace signified by the outward Sign ? ( so much talked of in your Catechisms ) but its evident T. D. is ignorant of the Mystery of the Body and Blood of Christ , and Cup of the new Testament in his Blood , which the outward Bread and Cup was but the sign and figure of ; we oppose the Popish opinion of Transubstantiation . And however , as to the Corinthians at that time , among them there was strife and division , contention and disorder , one being hungry , another drunk , another asleep ; one being of Paul , another of Apollo , another of Cephas , which the Apostle reproved therein , as being carnal , walking as men , so that he could not speak unto them as unto Spiritual , but as unto Carnal , 1 Cor. 3.11 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 20 , 21 , 30. Now suposing that wherein the Apostle might or did condescend to their low capacity , as not grown to that Spirituallity , so as to see through the outward Shaddows , this their Example was not to be a President , not could it in Reason or Truth be enjoyned to all other that succeeded , who were come truly to know the glory of Christ's appearance in Spirit , and Spiritually to enjoy the Communion of the body and Blood of Christ , where none of these disorders aforesaid have any place . Now Paul in his second Epistle to the Corinthians , Chap. 13.15 . bids them , examine and prove themselves , saying , Know ye not your own selves , how that Jesus Christ is in you except you are Reprobates ; So here was the Bread he then referred them to , which indeed was always the intent and end of his Labour and Travel , to bring those that were weak to a Living and Spiritual sence even of this Spiritual Bread ; however , because of their weakness , and low capacity he might condescend unto them , as in some things he did . And whereas T. D. pleading for his Ordinances , as before ; saith , Pag. 72. They do not cease as to our need of them , because it is not to be supposed , consistant with Christ's Wisdom to continue an obligation upon us to the use of a means , when the end is obtained ; viz , the appearance of Christ within , that is a full appearance or state of Perfection ( saith he ) but we having proved that there is no such state attainable in this life ; then if those Ordinances oblige till we be arrived at perfection , they oblige , and so are of use during term of life . Answ. Where observe , first , however , he hath granted that they are not obliging where the end is attained , or not continued by Christ as an obligation where this his appearance is Witnessed which brings to a state of Perfection . Secondly , T. D. having not proved that such a state is not attainable on this side the Grave , but the contrary being proved before against him and all his Brethrens sinfull Pleas , Doctrines and Arguments for Sin and Imperfection in this life ; therefore this Spiritual appearance of Christ brings man beyond all mens Traditions and outward Ordinances , ( so called ) and indeed who do know a beginning in the Spirit ought to wait for this Spiritual Appearance and Coming of Christ according to the Spirit 's direction which is most perfect , and not to turn back again into the Types , Shaddows and Figures , nor into the weak and beggerly Elements of the World , nor yet subject themselves to mens Traditions , carnal Commandments , imposed Doctrines and Preceps , but to wait upon God in Spirit , to serve and worship him in the newness of the Spirit , that thereby they may know the Spiritual Washing , the Baptism into Christ's Death , and be Baptized by the one Spirit into one Body , and so come into the House of God , and to feed at his Table , and partake of the Living Bread which comes down from Heaven , and to drink of the Fruit of the Vine with Christ in his Fathers Kingdom , which Kingdom he promised to his Disciples should come with Power even in their Age , or before some of them that stood by should taste of death , Mark 9.1 . Luke 9.27 . And as for T. D's saying , The Apostle calls the Doctrine of Baptism a Foundation ; ( these are not the Apostles words , neither did he teach Sprinkling ) Infants ) for , saith he , but leaving the Principles ( or beginning of the Doctrine of Christ , let us go on unto Perfection , not laying again the Foundation of Repentance from dead works , and of Faith towards Gods , and the Doctrine of Baptisms , &c. Now if Perfection which was the end of those Baptisms was the thing they were to go on unto , as he exhorted ; surely , then it was attainable ; for the Apostles exhortation was in the Faith , and did not oppose Perfection , as T. D. erroniously hath done , but directed and led them forward out off and beyond the Shaddows and Figures unto the Substance , and preached to present men perfect in Christ. And whereas T. D. hath charged us yet further with a great Error , which is , that there is no Resurrection from the Dead ; and to prove us guilty hereof , he mentioneth a Letter of one R. Turner , ( which Letter I have not seen , nor do I know the man ) as also G. W. in his late Answer to William Burnet ; and G. F. junior in his Books bound up together . Answ. How apparently T. D. hath belyed , slandered , and abused us , in accusing so positively that we hold there is no Resurrection from the Dead , is evident in many printed Books of ours ; and he hath neither mentioned my words , nor G. F's ; I say his slander and false accusation herein against me in particular may be plainly detected out of that very Book of my own , wherein Pag. 67. I have expressed these very words ; But the Resurrection according to the Scriptures of Truth , and Testimonies of Christ and the Apostles we do believe and own , as Recorded in John 5.21 , 24 , 25 , 28 , 29. and Chap. 11.25 . Matth. 22.30 , 31 , 32. 1 Cor. 15.34 , 35 , 36 , 37 , 38. and so on 2 Cor. 5.1 . Many other places might be cited . These very words and Scriptures are thus set down in my Answer to William Burnet , after which are some passages of a Dispute I had upon the same subject with that busie ( yet sorry ) Contender Matthew Caffin the Baptist ; whose impertinencies and ignorance at the Dispute was fully manifested , as others of his Brethrens have been when they have appeared in the same unprofitable work against us . And as concerning what G. F. the younger saith ( in his Books collected ) clears him also from T. Danson's impudent slander of holding there is no Resurrection from the Dead ; for G. F. affirmeth the contrary in pag. 209 , 210. in these very words , Touching the Resurrection , it s a Mystery which the carnal mind can never comprehend , but they that come to witness a part in Christ Jesus the Light of Life , they in his Light may come to perceive the Mystestery of the Resurrection ; but if Truth can be received and understood , then it will appear that I do not deny the Resurrection ; for I do verily believe that the Hour is coming , in which all that are in the Graves shall bear the voice of the Son of God , and shall come forth ; they that have done good unto the Resurrection of Life , and they that have done evil unto the Resurrection of Condemnation ; but to Fools that say that this Body of natural Flesh and Bones shall be raised ; I say , that body which is sown is not that body that shall be , but God giveth a body as it pleaseth him , yet to every Seed it s own body , Thus far G. F. junior ; by all which T. D. his slander is detected ; and his false spirit discovered , as not fit to meddle with the Mysteries of God , which are out of his sight and reach . God will sweep away the refuge of Lyes and Lyars . Some Observations upon John Owen's Book , [ Entituled , A Declaration , &c. ] including a brief Answer and Reply to the same . AS We the People of God , called Quakers , are but little concerned in John Owen's Declaration , we need concern our selves the less ; and let them that are chiefly concerned in his Accusations make him answer . But in that he hath in some few places hinted , and falsly insinuated against us as being one with the Socinians , ( as he calls them ) or seduced into Socinianism : Lest any should give credit to these and such like insinuations , and thereby be prejudiced against us , or the Truth professed by us , meerly upon John Owen's overly Reports , I judge it meet a little to appear in Truth 's Vindication , and our clearness in answer to some particulars in his Book . As first , where in his Preface Pag. 6. he saith , There is now a visible accession made by that sort of People whom men will call Quakers , from their department from the first erection of their Way long since desertted by them . Answ. We have not made any accession contrary to the Truth first received by us ; nor have we deserted its Way , which so long since the Lord God by his Power gathered us into out of the corrupt Wayes , Inventions , Traditions , and false Worships of the World , to worship him in the Spirit and in the Truth , wherein we have been gathered to be a peculiar people to God , being delivered from the many Sects , Wayes , and Professions set up since the dayes of the Apostles . AS to Socinianism , as he calls it , we are neither Discipled in it , nor Baptized into Socinus his name , neither do we own him for our Author or Patern in those things which we Believe and Testifie ; nor yet do we own several Principles which John Owen relates , as being from Socinus , and principally that of Christ's being ( God , but ) not the Most High God , pag. 54 , 55. It was never our Principle ; for though we do confess to his condescention , humility and Suffering in the dayes of his Flesh , wherein he appeared in the form of a Servant , being made in fashion as a man ; but his being in the form of God , in the Divine Nature of God , wherein he was equal with God , and being glorified with the same glory he had with the Father before the World began , and his being God over all blessed for ever ; these things we professed and believed in the beginning , and do the same still , it never being in our hearts , in the least , to oppose or desert them ; therefore , as to the Conjunction J. O. ●ell of betwixt both these sorts of men in opposition to the holy Trinity , with the Person and Grace of Christ. Herein he hath charged a double falshood upon us ; first , such a Conjunction and Opposition either to the Person or Grace of Christ which we absolutely deny ; neither is our opposing of mens corrupt meanings of Scripture and invented names and terms put upon the Deity any opposition either against God , Christ , or Spirit , nor yet against the Grace or Love of either . J. O. Pag. 6. However they may seem in sundry things as yet to look divers wayes , yet like Sampson 's Foxes , they are knit together by the tayl in these firebrand Opinions , and joyntly endeavour to consume the standing Corn of the Church of God , and their joynt management of their business of late , &c. Answ. I suppose he intends Quakers and Socinians , wherein both his Accusation and Comparison are false and scornfull , for there 's no such conjunction , nor joynt endeavours between them ; neither ever was it the Quakers intent or principle , in the least , to endeavour to consume the standing Corn of God's Church , ( as we injuriously are accused ) but such vain and false imaginations , corruptions and perverting Scripture , as J. O. and his Brethren are guilty of , which have no growth nor reception in the Church of God ; for his Church is in him , and led by his Spirit into all Truth , which no Lye nor Deceit have any part in . Besides , as for Sampson's Foxes , they were not set to destroy the Corn of the Church or Israel , but of the Philistines ; neither can we believe that the Presbyterians and Independants are the true Church , till we see better Fruit appear among them then is yet : for look into their Assemblies , and see what pride and vanity they are gotten into in their apparel ; behold also , how gaudy in their habits their women are ; and what an example of pride and pomp they shew to the profane , to the shame of their profession ; certainly God hath yet Viols of Wrath unemptied ▪ to pour down upon that proud and persecuting Spirit , which hath so much shewed it self in many of them . But what he means by those words holy Trinity , he further explains in pag. 26 , 27. in these words , viz. Now the sum of the Revelation in these terms , is , that God is one , that this one God is Father , Son , and Holy Ghost ; that the Father is the Father of the Son , and the Son the Son of the Father ; and the Holy Ghost the Spirt of the Father and and the Son : Now had this Doctor Owen and his Brethren but kept to these , and such like expressions , and have left out their unscriptural scholastick terms and distinctions about Trinity , distinct Subsistances and Personalities , we should not need to have had such controversies with any of them about them , but have taken their confession that God is one , and that Father Son and holy Ghost are God ; and that the Father is Father of the Son , and the Son the Son of the Father , &c. according to this great Doctors Relation , who pretends very much to Scripture , and makes many large Repetitions of Scripture to prove his matter , counting them the Revelation ; but then being again not willing to keep to the terms , expressions and phrases of Scripture , but writes his own conceivings , sences and meanings , as men of his Coat and Fraternity use to do ; as in Pag. 31. he pleads for making use of other words expressions and phrases , that neither are litterally nor formally contained in Scripture , and so makes use of his conceptions and apprehensions of what is contained therein , see pag. 30 , 31. But then again another while he saith , Let us nakedly attend to what the Scripture asserts , as in pag. 42. And in pag. 110. he tells us of manifesting what was revealed expresly in Scripture concerning God the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost ; so that many times he would make people believe , as if he would nakedly and , exactly keep to the Scriptures ; but then at other times his notions , conceptions , meanings , and odd invented terms must be put upon them , and men must either confess to those , or else be liable to his and his Brethrens censures of being Socinians , Hereticks , Blasphemers , and what not ? And though he hath appeared a little smother then his Brother Tho. Vincent hath done in his railing Pamphlet , yet he hath wronged us by his false insinuations against us , as if we denied the Diuinity of Christ , and deserted our former Principles ; also he hath represented us as being in conjunction with those whom he accuseth of opposing or denying the oneness of the Deity , and the Grace of Christ , or the Father , Son , and holy Ghost to be God , which we are not at all concerned in , nor guilty of ; and our Books and Writings now , and from the very beginning evince the contrary . But then in Pag. 129. he confesseth , That the objections these men principally insist upon , are meerly against the explanations we use of this Doctrine , and not against the primitive Revelation of it , which is the principal object of our Faith &c. Now if by these men he intends us , called Quakers , as is apparent he doth by his present discouse , he hath then very much cleared us from other of his and his Brethrens Accusations , and thereby hath also plainly contradicted both himself and them ; for here our objections are meerly against their explanations , and not against the primitive Revelation or principal object of Faith ; so whilst the Revelation which is according to the Scriptures , and the principal object of Faith is not objected against , but owned and professed by us according to the Scripture , it is very unjust and injurious either in him or his Brethren to insinuate against us , as if we denied either the Divinity of Christ or the holy Spirit ; though as to their distinctions about Personalities , Subsistances , Modallities , and the like invented terms and names which they put upon the Deity we must needs except against as not scriptural , nor proceeding from any naked attention to what the Scripture asserts , ( which J. O. doth but pretend to ) but from mens conceptions and traditions which are upheld by the wisdom which this world teacheth , and not that which the Holy Ghost teacheth . And then in Pag. 89. he goes to accuse and vilifie us in these words ; viz. Our Quakers for a long time hovered up and down like a swarm of Flyes , with a confused noise and huming , ( what falshood and scorn is here for such a Doctor to express ) begin now to settle in the Opinions lately by them declared for ; ( this is a false insinuation again ) what their thoughts will fall to be concerning the holy Ghost when they shall be contented to speak intelligeably and according to the usage of other men , or the pattern of Scripture , the great rule of speaking or treating about spiritual things , I know not , and I am uncertain whether they do themselves or no. Thus far J. Owen . To which I say , in the first of these expressions he hath scornfully and falsly accused us , as also with beginning now to settle in Opinions , for we are neither so beginning , nor so to begin , but are setled in the Truth out of and above mens invented Opinions , about which are so many Divisions and Sects among them ; but if by Opinion he intends Socinianism , ( as he calls and represents it ) his own testimony shall testifie against him as a false Accuser of us herein , as in pag. 129. where he confesseth our objections to be meerly against the explanation they use , and not against the primitive Revelation of it ; so then we are not guilty of such Opinions , as either deny the Divinity of Christ , or that tends to lessen him in any respect or offices relating to man's Salvation ; for our desire is , and our endeavour hath been the exaltation of his Name , Power and Glory over all ; neither have we been hovering , nor in confusion , as falsly he hath represented us ; and if he knows not what our thoughts will fall into concerning the Holy Ghost , but is uncertain whether we do our selves or no , he should therefore have been silent of accusing or reviling us , as he hath done , because it appears it is in his ignorance and uncertainty that he hath thus vilified us , and insinuated against us ; he should have received a better information and knowledge of us before he had thus reviled us ; and not to have gone and bespattered and vilified a whole Body of People , to render them odious from his own uncertain thoughts of them ; for he would not be so dealt by himself : and the Reader may take notice that a great part of his Book , ( wherein he goes about to prove the Divinity or Deity of Christ and the Holy Ghost ) in which he appears as one opposing some great Enemies , ( among whom we are numbred ) we are unconcerned therein , having never denied Christ's Divinity ; and if his own testimony may be of any value , we are cleared by it ( as before ) in pag. 129. Alas ! poor man , J. 0. has missed his mark in shooting thus uncertainly , and at random against the Quakers , And where he adds touching the Holy Ghost , Whether he may be the Light within them , or an infallible afflatus , is uncertain . Though it be uncertain to J. O. it is certain to us that have the Testimony and evidence of the holy Spirit in us , which gives us both Life , Light and Power , and we know him to be infallible , how deridingly soever he speaks of it , as also according to the precious Promises of God which hereby we know in a large measure the fulfilling of ; we experience Christ to be in us , and in that the Father Word and Spirit are confessed to be one Power , Wisdom and Love , and to be of one Divine Substance , Nature and Essence ; this we neither do nor ever did deny : and God is in his People , and dwels in them , and walks in them , and the Spirit is sent into our hearts ; so they are not divided , distinct and separate persons , &c. as may be read in John 17.21 , to the end , where Christ said , that they may all be one , as thou Father art in me , and I in thee ; that they also may be one in us , that the World may believe that thou hast sent me ; and the glory which thou gavest me I have given them , that they may be one , even as we are one ; I in them , thou in me , that they may be made perfect in one , &c. And God said , Let us make man in our own Image after our likeness , Gen. 1 , 26. Now , if by us , here is intended Father , Son and Holy Ghost ( which is called Trinity ) then it follows that he was made in the likeness of all three , and yet we do not read that God did consist in three distinct Persons , nor that man was made in the Image of three Persons , nor yet that three distinct and separate persons dwelt in him , though God did promise after the Fall to dwell in his people : and he and his Son and Spirit we do really own , confess to , and have a living sence and experience of to our Souls Comfort and everlasting peace ; So when we cannot well resent , nor accept of mens invented terms put upon the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , it is unreasonable and injurious to accuse us with opposing any of them , or denying their Divinity , and the Unity of the Deity . And where John Owen in pag. 91 , 92. to prove the Holy Ghost a Person , and an existing Substance , which he calls also a distinct and divine Person , he quotes many Scriptures , as Gen. 1.2 . the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters ; Psalm 33.6 . by the Word of the Lord the Heavens were made , and all the Host of them by the Spirit of his Mouth ; these , with many he urgeth for proof of the Personallity of the Holy Ghost . So according to his Principle and terms which he puts upon the Holy Ghost ( as a distinct Person , &c. ) and according to J. O's meaning we must read the Scripture thus , the [ Person ] of God moved upon the face of the Waters : By the [ Person ] of the Lord were the Heavens made , and all the Host of them by the [ Person ] of his mouth : and so likewise upon Job 26.13 . by his [ Person ] he hath garnished the Heavens , and in like manner upon the rest of the Scriptures he bringeth in this case : Now let the Reader judge whether such a meaning & alteration put upon the Scriptures doth either look clear , or sound well ; and whether it be not a corrupting Scripture , and addition , contrary to the plain innocent Language thereof ; and if such corruption and alteration upon Scripture may be admitted of , how are they the only Rule , or great Rule of speaking and treating about spiritual things ? J. Owen and his Brethen had better refer people to the Scriptures , and leave them to a naked attention to what Scripture asserts , rather then thus to pervert them , or puzle and darken peoples minds with their humane inventions , and Scholastick terms imposed in the time of Apostacy and Popery . And concerning the Son of God , and some accounting him the Light within men ; this J. O. numbers among the monstrous imaginations , pag. 87. Wherein he hath not only struck at us who testifie to Christ , as the Light of the World , that lighteth every man , and as being in the true Believers both their Light , Life and Salvation ; but also J. O. hath herein opposed both the former Saints and Scriptures of Truth , who testified unto Christ the Light as we do ; as also he owned himself , to be come a light into the World , and to be in his Followers , He that is with you shall be in you ; I in them and they in me , &c. Pag. 103. J.O. queries how can the Power of God , or a quality be said to be sent , to be given , to be bestowed on men ? Answ. Yes , very well it may be so said , Christ gave them power to become the Sons of God , who believed on his Name ; and was not this God's Power ? had Christ any thing but what was Gods ? and the Saints knew the Power of God to work mightily in them ▪ so that this Doctor hath shewed himself very ignorant of the Power of God , and its work , which doth beget and restore man into the Image , Righteousness and true Holiness of God , and this is given and bestowed on such as believe in the Light within , the Light of the Divine Power of God , which giveth unto us all things appertaining to Life and Godliness . And now touching their distinctions of Persons or Personal Subsistances in God , J. O. saith pag. 114. The distinct apprehension of them , and their accurate expression is not necessary unto Faith , as it is our Guide , &c. nor are those brief explanations before mentioned so proposed as to be placed immediately in the same rank or order with the original Revelations . Answ. If they be not necessary unto Faith , nor yet to be placed in the order with Revelations , ( meaning Scripture ) why then are these men so strict in going about to impose their terms , expressions and explications which they have not in the Scripture upon peoples Faith and Conscience , as if it were a matter of damnation not to receive a Faith concerning God under their traditional notions and terms : However we believe what the Scriptures saith both of God , Christ and holy Spirit , who are one ; laying aside all these mens invented confused amusing Sophistry , Cavils , and their darkning terms ( as distinct and separate Personallities , Substances , Subsistances , Modallities , &c. of which they themselves are guilty , though J. O. accuseth others therewith pag. 116. And whilst these pretended accurate expressions are not necessary unto Faith , why doth J. O. press them as proper expressions of what is revealed to encrease our light ? pag. 115. What apparent contradiction is this ; not necessary unto Faith , as our Guide , and yet proper to encrease our light , as if the encrease of light had not a necessary relation unto both Faith as Guide and Principle , both in and unto religious worship ; but to be sure that instead of encreasing light , their dark invented scholastick Heathenish and Popish terms have encreased much darkness in the minds of people , and kept many in great ignorance both of God and the mystery of godliness . And whereas J. O. gives order or instruction , that they that deny or oppose their explications , are to be required positively to deny or disapprove the oneness of the Deity , or to prove that the Father , or Son , or Holy Ghost are not God , before they be allowed to speak one word against the manner of the explication , pag. 115. Answ. A very unreasonable imposition and requiring , to require any to deny the oneness of the Deity , or to prove the Father Son or Holy Ghost not to be God , because they may except against such invented explications as J. O. and his Brethren have brought out of their Heathenish Store-houses , and Chambers of Imaginary ; and hath not he herein imposed upon the Objecters ? and begged the question , taking it as granted that their explications are as true as the oneness of the Deity , or as true as that the Father Son and Holy Ghost are God ; as if he had told us it is all one , as true that they are distinct severed Persons , as it is that they are God ; which it is not : we have not ground to believe their explications herein to be equal ; for the Unity of the Godhead or Divinity of Christ ( or his Spirit ) we never denied nor scrupled ; Therefore for J. O. to require any that except against their terms and inventions positively , to deny the Unity of the Deity , is both sad Doctrine and unreasonableness , as also shews an imperious lording spirit ; though its probable among the Independants and Professors he can make a shew of more humility then he did formerly ; for he now wants Cromwel to promote him . However , he and others of his Fraternity might by this time have in reallity learned more lowliness and humility , then yet appears in them towards such as cannot be screwed up to their way and method of expressing the Invisible things of God , which are Heavenly , Divine and Spiritual , as his being and properties are absolutely above the comprehension of J. O's reason , as is confest pag. 128. We cannot by searching find out God , we cannot find out the Almighty to perfection : And yet vain man would be wise and imploy his natural reason and fallen wisdom , both to find , and set out God , to evince him and his things unto the natural reason of others which still falls short both of any true knowledg and spiritual understanding ; for vain by nature is every man , and ignorant of God. It is the spiritually minded who are begotten to God , who are spiritually and immediately taught by his Spirit , that have a true and spiritual understanding of Divine Matters and Mysteries . Pag. 118. J. O. Every person hath distinctly its own Substance , [ But then in contradiction he adds ] for the one Substance of the Deity is the Substance of each Person ; but each Person hath not its own distinct Substance Reply , A strange Riddle and invention , that each person hath distinctly its own Substance , and yet not its own distinct Substance ; what Scripture hath he for this Critick and nice distinction ? how is a person then an individual Substance of a rational nature , that is not upheld by another , if it hath not its own distinct Substance , whilst yet it hath distinctly its own Substance ? but the Divine Substance of the Deity of the Father , the Word and Spirit is but one , as often hath been granted ; so then the Holy Ghost , though confessed to be a Substance , pag. 101. yet ; I say , not a Personal Substance distinct from the Father and the Son , as there is ignorantly asserted . But then J. O. to tell us pag. 118. That all Divine properties , such as to be infinite is , belong not to the Persons , on the account of their Personallity , but of their nature , &c. Observ. Then it appears they are not three Infinite Persons , but one Infinite God ; and yet those Persons are the Father , the Son and the Holy Ghost ; were it not both Blasphemy and contradiction to say they are finite ; and what better have our Opposers said ? but at other times they are Eternal ; God Eternal , the Eternal Son and Eternal Spirit ; and thus they wheel about , and say and unsay . Answ. It were better for them nakedly to apply themselves to the plain Language of Scripture , and keep to it , to lay aside and avoid confusion , and absurdities about distinct finite personallities , which the Scripture does not put upon the Infinite God , in whom there is neither finiteness nor variableness . I am God , I change not , saith he ; the Lord is one , and his name one ; from Everlasting to Everlasting he is God unchangable . And the Father Son and Holy Ghost being one Divine Infinite Substance , are one Infinite God. Away with your vain babling , and invented erroneous distinctions of finite Persons in him who is infinite ; you are not worthy therein to talk of God , nor to take his holy , precious and pure Name in your mouthes , who are in your sins and pollutions , corrupting your selves in your carnal conceptions and imaginations about those things that you know not ; who are gone a whoring after humane inventions , invented words , names , terms and distinctions , such as neither the Holy Ghost , nor the Scriptures ever taught you . Pag. 117. And as for them that will keep to their Cavils and Sophisms about terms and expressions ; I know not who J. O. may intend hereby ; but if he intend us , called Quakers , because we do not own , but oppose his and their dark unscriptural terms and expressions , which darken both counsel and knowledge , we do reject his Accusation and Charge herein , for Cavils and Sophisms are rather his and his Brethrens , who have been trained up in Sophistry and School-craft , in order to be furnished to a Trade of Preaching , to make a Trade of the Scriptures , corrupting them by their dark meanings , and School-terms , and Philosophick distinctions , by which poor people have been kept even learning , that they might be always paying them . Pag. 117. But then J. O. addeth against such as he supposeth will keep to their Cavils and Sophisms , That all further debate or conference with them , may justly , and ought both conscientiously and rationally to be refused and rejected . Reply , If herein he may intend us , as it s probably he may , as well as others among whom he has numbred us ( though unrighteously ) as his debating or conference is of little value or esteem with us , whilst it proceeds neither from a sence of God's Divine Power , nor from any Living experience of God , or his work within , but from humane inventions and traditions : So J. O. and his Brethrens work in these matters , whether they go on in it , or stop from further debate , it will be of very little weight to us , since we see to the far end of their subtilty , and beyond their spirits and confusion ; however , J. O. laying it as their duty not to debate any further with such as he censures , ( as before ) he hath brought himself , and those that own him under a Law and Limitation , that if they further contend with us , they must either not accuse us with Cavils and Sophisms , or else not debate nor contend any further with us ; for if they do so accuse and censure us , and yet further debate or contend with us , they transgress their own Law , so strictly here urged by J.O. and by the same reason , when he and they are found guilty of Cavils and Sophisms , may not others as much slight him and them therein ? But however he or they judge or censure us , I hope we shall not be backward nor negligent to vindicate the Truth , and clear our innocency from reproaches and scandals of men of perverse and envious spirits , when we have occasion given us thereby . J. O. These sacred Mysteries of God and the Gospel , are not lightly to be made the subject of mens contest and disputations . Observ. It is very true , that sacred Mysteries of God and Gospel are not lightly , nor yet slightly to be made subjects of contests , nor yet ought they to be medled with by light airy minds , nor by perverse and prejudiced spirits , which are apt to bring forth perverse disputes , as it is too common to men of corrupt minds , who are destitute of the Truth : But why then do Presbyterian Teachers give such occasion by their light and vain contests , confusions and contradictions to stir up the minds of people into such disputations about things which both they themselves are yet to seek in , and by which they do the more darken the Enquirers ? J.O. should seriously review and examine his Bro. Vincent and T. Danson their contests in their late Pamphlets , and see how lightly and sorrily they have contended , and how they have contradicted themselves ; and whether such as they be fit Champions in the management of their Cause ? it concerns them to pause upon their work , and examine it , and compare their Books together , for they have very palpably contradicted one another in divers passages of principle concernment ; and if several of them write Pamphlets again against the Quakers , they had need to compare them very diligently , for otherwise , in all probability , they will contradict one another ; as they have done , as is the nature of Babel's Builders so to do . Pag. 150. J. O. For the term of Satisfaction , the right understanding of the word it self defends on some notions of Law , that as yet we need not take into consideration . Answ. It appears J. O. and his Brethren's understanding of their Doctrine herein depends on notions of Law not yet taken into consideration , and not on any living experience of the Gospel of Gods Divine Power wherein the Righteousness of Faith is revealed , and the living and blessed effect of Christ's suffering and death ; and here they bring us their notions instead of Gospel , so that what they tell us in this matter it is not from a saving knowledge or sence of the work of God in themselves , but notions received by tradition from one another , though they intermix many Scriptures among their notions , and therefore would have all go for Gospel that they divulge ; but who knows the Power of God within , and the fellowship of Christ's Sufferings will own the Scriptures of Truth as we do , and not relie upon their uncertain notions , about which so much of their confusion and contradiction amongst themselves doth appear , that little of their work can certainly be laid hold on , as with any confidence of their stability ; howbeit , J. O. has in several things consented to the Truth in words which we do own , though we do not believe that he or his Brethren do experience the Life and Power of what they profess , as where J. O. Confesseth , That God out of his infinite Goodness , Grace and Love to mankind sent his only Son to save and deliver them ; viz. from their sins , and that this Love was the same in the Father and Son ; and that Christ gave himself a Ransom for all , to be testified in due time , 1 Tim. 2.6 . And gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from all iniquity , Titus 2.14 . And to finish Transgression , and to make an end of Sin ; to make Reconciliation , to bring in Everlasting Righteousness , Dan. 9.24 . And that God had provided himself a Lamb for a Sacrifice ; And God doth not pardons Sins freely , without requiring Faith , Repentance and Obedience in them that are pardoned ; and it is certain that the prescribing of Faith and Repentance in and unto Sinners antecedently to their participation of it , &c. We are to be discharged upon Gods terms , and under a new obligation unto his Love , &c. Thus far J.O. Observ. In all which observe that J. O. has confessed unto the Truth , much more then some of his Brethren . For first , to the infinite Goodness of God , and his Love the same in Father and Son , which declares the freeness of both towards man kind , and their union therein for mans deliverance from Sin , Death and the Curse . Secondly , That God sending his Son , was to save and deliver from Sin , to redeem us from all Iniquity : It s well if J. O. truly believes what he sayes herein ; for his Brethren T. V. and T. D. have pleaded the contrary in their contending for Sin and Imperfection in all Believers term of Life . Thirdly , Christ giving himself a ransom for all , to be testified of in due time ; instead of For All , Presbyterians and Independants were wont to say , it was but for a few that he died , only for a certain select number , wherein they have denied the universal Love and Grace of God in Christ to mankind . ‖ Fourthly , His coming to finish Transgression , to make an end of Sins , and to bring in Everlasting Righteousness , is both beyond and contradicts their sinfull Doctrine for sin and imperfection , and their notion of imputation of Christ's Righteousness to sinfull persons , whilst they are not at all really partakers of Christ's Righteousness , Holiness or Purity in them , no more then Christ was guilty of sin , when he knew no sin , according to T. D's instance and erroneous Argument , for a proportion in that case . Fifthly , And seeing that without Faith , Repentance and Obedience on the Creature 's part , God doth not pardon sins freely , it appears it is not peoples bare application and belief of what Christ hath done and suffered for them that will free and acquit them , without the knowledge and sence of his Power which works living Faith and Repentance , and makes willing to obey the pure Law of God in the heart , and the new Covenant in the inward parts ; for as J. O. confesseth , it would altogether unbecome the holy God to pardon Sinners that continue so to live and die in their sins , pag. 179. this is a truth which he and his Brethren had need to look to , that they be not found guilty both in Principle and in Practice , as namely both contending and preaching up a continuance in sin and imperfection all their dayes , as T. D. and T. V. hath done ; and as it s said by many , some of the Presbyterian Teachers do more of late revile the Quakers for holding Perfection and Freedom from Sin attainable in this life , and to perswade people against the belief of such a state more then they have done heretofore ; wherein they work , as if they would hasten people to Hell and Destruction , and do but strengthen the hands of the Evil-Doers , that they may not forsake their sins , by promising them life , as the false Prophets did , and promising them pardon and peace on the account of all being fully paid and satisfied for them , they living and dying in sin , or telling them that perfection is not attainable till after death , as namely , till the Resurrection , as T. D. and others of them have affirmed ; but they had little need to preach up such Doctrine , for their Hearers and Followers are prone and apt enough to run on in sin and transgression without their Leaders tutering them in it ; they had not need to drive them on to Hell and Destruction ; the Devil can lead them fast enough thither , who continue Sinners , to live and die in their sins , wherein it does not become the holy God to pardon them , as is confessed . And now touching your Explication , Declaration and Confession concerning the Terms and Conditions whereon Sinners may be interested in the Satisfaction made by Christ ; J. O. saith pag. 167. It may also be farther evinced that there is nothing asserted in them but what is excellently suited unto the common notions which mankind hath of God and his Righteousness , and that in their practice they answer the Light of Nature and common Reason exemplified in sundry instances among the Nations of the World. Answ. First it is to be observed that a great stress is laid upon these Explications , Declarations or Confessions of yours , as relating to the terms and interest you claim in Christ's Satisfaction unto the determination of God's Will and Confirmation of Divine testimonies according to J. O's words , wherein no less then Salvation appears to be concerned ; for without an interest in Christ and his Righteousness men cannot be saved . Secondly , Your Assertions herein being suited unto the common notions of mankind , and as answering the Light of Nature and common Reason ( as it is called , and as J. O's words are ) whether herein hath he not rendred this Light and common Reason , together with the common notions mankind hath of God , to be of a saving property , since it so suits those things wherein Salvation is so deeply concerned , according to J. O. but then if he does not reckon mens common Notions , Light or Reason which is natural to be saving ( as indeed we do not believe that any thing natural , as of man in the Fall can save ) then may we not reasonablely look upon J.O. to have asserted and declared those things wherein Salvation is not concerned , or which we are not to look upon as answering that Light which is Spiritual and Saving , but only common Notions and natural Reason , whilst he and his Brethren keep not to plain Scripture Language , and but run into notions , terms distinctions , which they have by Tradition from men & mens inventions , more suiting common and corrupt reason then Divine Light. But and if the Light in men be Divine which manifests divine Revelations and Testimonies relating to Salvation , ( such as J. O. would have us believe his matter to be grounded on ) then it follows , that such a light is common or universal in mankind , and not only given to a few , nor natural , as it hath been often rendred by such as J. O. ‖ and what doth this spiritual or divine Light teach concerning God and his Righteousness , but that he is to be feared , obeyed and honoured , and that all sin and iniquity should be forsaken , and God's Righteousness , Power and Image ( which is Christ Jesus ) lived in , obeyed and followed by man ; for herein is God well pleased and satisfied in beholding his own Image and birth renewed and brought forth , which admits not of sin nor imperfection , much less of either pleading , contending , disputing or preaching for its continuance in all term of life ; and this Light of Christ within ( however any miscall it ) is that which gives the knowledge of God's Love in Christ , and of the vertue and efficacy of his Suffering , and so of his Blood , and to eat of his flesh which is given for the Life of the World , wherein we partake of him , as the one Offering , at the Altar of God in his Sanctuary , which the carnal Professors , both among Jews and pretended Christians , were and are ignorant of , and in this Light are we come to know and receive Christ , and reconciliation through his Death , and also the glory of God through him in whom we have received the Attonement , Peace and Union with the Father in the Son , which all you that either slight , oppose or deny this Light within , and say its but natural , are ignorant of , being but in your dark notions , natural apprehensions and conceivings , which you intermix with Scripture , so that the Dignity , Glory , Power and Vertue that is , and ever was in Christ , you do but talk of , without the real sence , discerning or enjoyment thereof ; but every one that truely waits upon the Living God in his Light and Life within , whereby their minds and spirits being subjected unto his Will , and their hearts truly broken before him , such know the Ransom and Attonement which the Righteous and redeemed of the Lord knew and witnessed in all Ages , and have that to offer unto God , and such Sacrifices to present before him , wherein he behold of his own glory and beauty , and savours of his own vertue , which is truly acceptable and well pleasing unto him , who delighteth in his own Image , Seed and Royal Off-spring , which none truly know but who come into the Light to receive Christ the promised Seed , which bruiseth the Serpents head ; and to eat his Flesh , and drink his Blood , without which you have no Life in you , for all your talk and notions . Pag. 185. J. O. The Sacrifice denotes his Humane Nature ; whence God is said to purchase his Church with his own Blood , Acts 20.28 . For he offered himself through the Eternal Spirit , there was the matter of the Sacrifice , which was the Humane Nature of Christ , Soul and Body ; his Soul was made an Offering for Sin , Isa. 53.10 . his Death had the nature of a Sacrifice , &c. Answ. These Passages are but darkly and confusedly expressed , as also we do not read in Scripture , that the Blood of God by which he purchased his Church , is ever called the Blood of the Humane Nature , nor that the Soul of Christ was the Humane Nature , or was put to death with the Body ( for the wicked could not kill the Soul ) though his Soul was made an Offering for sin , and he poured it out to death , ( he bore the sin of many , and made intercession for Transgressors ) but what death ( and in what manner ) was it is a mystery truly to know ; for his Soul in his own being was Immortal , and the Nature of God is Divine , and therefore that the Blood of God should be of Humane ( or earthly ) nature appears inconsistent ; and where doth the Scripture call the Blood of God Humane , or Humane Nature ? Neither do we read that the Blood which beareth record in the Earth , and agrees in one with the Spirit ( and which purgeth the Conscience , washeth and cleanseth the Believer in the Light from all sin ) was ever called by the Apostles the blood of the Humane Nature ; nor do we read that the Saints did eat and drink Flesh and Blood that was of a Humane Nature to receive Divine Life in them thereby ; for the Water of Life , and Blood of Christ which are said to wash , sanctifie and justifie , which agree in one with the Spirit , in those works and effects , we never read that they are called in Scripture by the name of Humane Nature ; for the Spirit that quickens is divine ; and it is the Spirit that gives Life , the Flesh profiteth nothing , John 6. And the Soul of Christ is Immortal , and did not die with the Body , though it s deemed as being of the Humane Nature with the Body , and so as of the Sacrifice in Suffering and Death ; whereas , though his Soul was made an Offering for sin , he having offered himself through the Eternal Spirit , yet his Soul or Spirit did not die ‖ with the Body , though J. O. hath ignorantly made no distinction , but joyns both as being but Humane Nature , ( which was Sacrificed to death ) but yet its evident , that though his Soul and Spirit did not die with the Body , yet his Soul was offered for sin , for the sins of men were laid upon him , or did meet on him , as is frequently confessed ; and so he suffered , and his Soul travelled under the burthen of them , so that his Sufferings were twofold , both inward and outward ; and which were the greater , suppose ye , Professors ? ‖ and whether there be not a mystery to be known in the Sufferings , Death and Blood of Christ , beyond what could be seen or perceived with the carnal or outward eye , since that he is truly and savingly to be known after the Spirit , as the Apostles knew him , who experienced the Fellowship of his Sufferings , and a conformity unto his Death , and bare in their bodies the Dying of the Lord Jesus ; that his Life might be manifest in them : And Christ being touched with the feeling of their Infirmities , was able to relieve them that were tempted ; and as Paul saith Colos. 1. You that were sometimes alienated and enemies in your minds through wicked works ; yet now hath he reconciled in the Body of his Flesh through death , to present you holy and unblameable , and unreproveable in his sight , if you continue in the Faith grounded and setled , and be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel which you have heard , which is preached to every Creature which is under Heaven , whereof I Paul am made a Minister , who now rejoyce in my sufferings for you , and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh , for his Body sake , which is the Church , verse 21 , 22 , 23 , 24. where mark , that the reconciled state was not that of enmity in their minds , and the end of this reconciliation through his Death , was to present them holy and unblameable , and unreproveable in his sight , which does not admit of sin and imperfection term of life , nor yet of Professors arguing or pleading for sin as they do ; and was there any of Christ's afflictions or sufferings then to be filled up in the Apostle for the sake of his Church ? how do Professors resent this Doctrine ? and what meaning will they give to it ? can they say that Christ's suffering was all at an end or fulfilled at once whilest yet some was behind , to be filled up in his Saints , and that for his Churches sake ? although still he was the one Offering , Ransom , and Sacrifice for sin , and was offered once for all , as both being opposed to , and ending the many Offerings under the Law , and consecrating a new and Living Way , and establishing an Everlasting Covenant of Life and Salvation ; as also that in what he did and suffered , be set us an Example , bare Testimony unto , and confirmed the Truth ; this J. O. confesseth page 199. And as to his being a perfect High Priest , and discharging the Office thereof , and all other the Father required of him , these we never opposed nor went about to slight or lessen , as some injuriously represented us . Neither would we have any unreverent and slighty Contests entertained on any hand about the Sufferings , Afflictions and Death of Christ , in the least , to lessen or undervalue them ; nor yet ought you to meddle and tamper about either God , Christ , or Holy Spirit , or about the Suffering and Sacrifice of Christ with your pitifull sorry confused School-terms and distinctions , and beggerly scraps of mens Traditions and Rudiments of the World , &c. wherein you have laboured more to fill your heads with airy notions , invented words , and brain knowledge , rather then your hearts and souls with a saving Knowledge , and experimental sence and feeling of the Life and Power of Godliness , or of the Vertue and Efficacy of Christ Jesus , and his Reconciliation as the one Offering and Sacrifice which puts away sin , and whose Blood both remits and clenseth from all iniquity : But to evade these blessed Effects , which are only known to them that walk in the Light , 1 John 1.7 . many of you Professors have found out a very easie way and notion of all being fully satisfied and payed for you , both for sins ▪ past , present , and to come , and of all being suffered and perfectly obeyed for you by Christ in your stead ; ( though you deny his dying and being a Propitiation for all men in the whole World ) so that you can plead and wrangle for sin , imperfection and body of sin all your life , and say Christ hath fully payed all , and perfectly obeyed for you ; as also you can easily evade or refuse to suffer either with him , or for him ; if but a little Storm , Trial or Persecution doth arise , you and your Leaders can secure your selves , and creep into corners , though now you can make a shew and bluster in this time of calm ; and some of you make a boasting and insulting against W. P. and a hidious reviling of him now he is in suffering , and you at liberty , thinking probably that you may get your selves some credit and repute with those in power by your railing Pamphlets which you bring out one after another , like cowardly base spirited men , so many to go to trample upon a man that is already underfoot , as to the outward man , in regard of his confinement , which some report that some of you Presbyterians were the Instigators and occasion of ; ( by such invective Clamours and Complaints , as some of you are accustomed to ) clear your selves as well as you can ; but yet withal you do but befool your selves in so many of you going to war against , and reproaching a poor man in Prison ( who freely offered up himself , to suffer which the most of you would be loath to do ) ‖ for by that your so great stir and noise you make against him , you render him ( how mean soever he be in himself ) such a potent Antagonist , ( contrary to your many slighty and scornfull Characters of him , in your Books ) that you make many momoderate people the more enquire after him , and to have the better conception of him because of your enmity and outrage , but such who wait upon the Lord , and in his Light stand still can see beyond you all , and your spirits and work , which the day hath declared . More Errors escaped the Press . IN the Epistle , Page 2. Line 12. for agree in , read are . p. 23. l. 2. blot out 1. l. 23. for for , r. in . p. 25. l. 10. r. produced . l. 35. for 13 , r. 3. In the Answer to T. V. p. 65. l. 1. blot out that . In the Answer to T. D. p. 2. l. 24. for gifts , r. gusts . p. 5. l. 18. for in , r. on . p. 7. l. 5. for 13 , r. 3. l. 11. for by , r. high . p. 9. l. 10. for and all , r. an act . p. 12. l. 2. for he , r. the. p. 17. l. last , r. invented . p. 18. l. 25. for on and , r. an end . p. 19. l. 1. r. amounts . l. 13. r. is towards . p. 21. l. 27. r. It is in Christ. p. 27. l. 6. r. deserving . p. 39. l. 35. for whether , r. whither . p. 45. at l. 26 , 27. the Reader may add , or understand , [ as given by divine Inspiration , not mens fallable Judgments and Mistakes upon them ] p. 49. l. 17. ( being 〈…〉 ) for and , r. or . p. 55. l. 18. dele which . p. 73. l. 7. ( in the Apendix ) r. principal . p. 74. l. 33. for T. V , r. T. D. p. 76. l. 16. dele three . p. 77. l. 12. for 1 , r. 5. p. 81. l. 16. dele and. Sometimes such defects have escaped , as misplacing hath for have doth for do , was for were , are for is , it for they , saith for say [ and so on the contrary : ] Such are not material faults to any , but such as are critical , who do not soberly weigh the intent of the matter . An APPENDIX : Wherein are some of the manifest Contradictions of Thomas Vincent , William Maddox , Thomas Danson , and John Owen , both to themselves , and one against another : With brief Animadversions or Observations upon their Contradictions , which are about Principle Matters . 1. Touching their distinction of Three Persons . I Am sure from the Scriptures , that the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , being of an infinite Nature , are three Persons ( three increated persons ) subsistences , or manner of beings , pag. 16 , 17 , 18 , 19. Contrad . T.V. ( In Contradiction to his Brother Maddox ) saith , Infiniteness is not applicable to the Subsistence , it cannot be properly ascribed to the Personality , though there be three distinct Personalities , to which Infiniteness is not ascribed , pag. 45. Obs. See here is as much inconsistency between these two , as between infinite and finite ; one making their being of an infinite Nature , a proof or reason of their distinct Personalities or Subsistencies ; And the other saith , Infiniteness is not applicable , nor properly ascribed to them ; what gross contradiction and blasphemous stuff is here ! W. M. Each of these three persons , is God ; his subsistence is his manner of being in the Relative property of the Father ( and so he speaks of the Son and Holy Ghost ) pag. 18 , 19. Contr. T.V. It is improper to say , that either of the persons , in regard of their personality or subsistence , are finite or infinite , pag. 46. Obs. This latter Contradiction then would have neither Father , Son , nor Holy Ghost to be either finite or infinite ; what gross nonsence and apparent Contradictions are these ! Contr. T.V. Christ is the Eternal Son of God by Eternal Generation , pag. 36 , 47. Obs. He is now the Eternal Son of God , before not infinite ; but — again neither finite nor infinite in his Personality , and yet the Eternal Son of God ; what mad distracted blasphemous work is this these men do make with their vain babling ! T.V. They are not three substances , &c. therefore three persons , p. 13. Contr. T. D. The usual definition of person , is an individual substance of a rational Nature , which is neither the part of another , nor upheld by another : which Aquinus defends , Sum Par. 1.9.29 . art . 2. a man , we call a person , &c. pag. 1 , 2. Obs. See again , how apparently these two Brethren contradict one another , one saying a person is an individual substance , &c. yet the other saith , They are not three substances , therefore three persons ( whereas it follows ) therefore not three persons . — Contr. J.O. We must acknowledge the Holy Ghost to be a substance , a person , God ; yet distinct from the Father and the Son , pag. 101. — a personal subsistance , pag. 114. Obs. Where note , that this Doctor Contradicts T.V. his saying they are not three substances ; as also that he seems to make both substance , person , and subsistance to intend all one thing , contrary to T. V. again . But these words [ a Person , God , yet distinct from the Father and Son ] I cannot make sense of , though they are from a Doctor , for God is not a Person distinct from himself . W.M. I called them three Hee 's , to try if you would own the Deity of Christ , &c. according to the Scriptures we call them Persons , or Hee 's , in respect of their manner of Subsistence , pag. 18 , 20. Contrad . T. V. The word Person cannot properly be attributed to Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , because they do not subsist in a several and distinct Nature of the same kind ; for if each of them had a several and not one individual Nature , then they should not be only three Persons , but three Gods ; Synopsis , pag. 3. Obs. It 's very evident here , that Thomas Danson has Contradicted both himself , and the rest of his Brethren , seeing the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost cannot properly be called Persons . — W.M. ( saith ) His comparing the three increated persons to three Apostles , Paul , Peter , and John , is blasphemy , pag. 20. Contr. T. D. A man we call a person , a person is intire of it self , pag. 2. if Peter , James , and John , each person be man , &c. — Take man here not for a person , but the Nature , as we do God , * and 't is evident , that we mean no more that the name Man may be attributed to Peter , James , and John , pag. 12. David was a man , and Solomon was a man , they two agree in a third thing , &c. pag. 14 , 15. Obs. What less do their own distinctions and comparisons concerning them amount to , than to Three Apostles , or men ? ( that is each intire of himself as a Person is ▪ T. D. saith ) who hath apparently spoyled his own and his Brethrens Cause . T.V. The Trinity of Persons , — the first in the second , and the second in the first , and both in the third , pag. 25. Contr. T. D. A Person notes some one indued with reason and understanding , which is several and distinct by himself from another , p. 2. ( and in the Dispute ) ( they are three distinct and separate Persons in the Deity ) — A person is intire of it self , &c. Obs. If the Father , the Word , and the Spirit , be in each other , and so inseparable , then not three distinct ( nor separate ) Persons , neither can one be several by himself from another . T.V. That the Father , Word , and Holy Ghost , are three persons , pag. 13. is to be found in the Scriptures , God hath revealed it in his Word , — the Scriptures hath revealed , that there are three distinct persons in one Divine Essence , pag. 26. Is Scripture truth , pag. 4. great truth . Contr. T.V. In this Mystery of the Trinity we must exercise our Faith ; Though we cannot clear it to our selves by Demonstration ( Reason cannot demonstrate it unto us , pag. 26. ) 't is such a Mystery that doth exceed the most enlightned and clear-sighted Christians . Contr. T.D. For Person , Aquinus defends , — I chuse to borrow that of the Learned Wotton , — the Trinity's a Mystery so high , that it rebates the sharpest edge of humane understanding , p. 83. Obs. If this Mystery be so apparent in Scripture , why can they neither demonstrate it , nor clear it to themselves ? We should desire no clearer demonstration then clear Scripture ; surely whilst they cannot clear it ( and their distinctions ) to themselves , they are not like to clear them unto others ; but instead of Scripture proof and demonstration , we must either aquiesce with what their humane understandings can produce from Aquinas , Wotton , and Aristotle , &c. or else we are like to be most bitterly railed against , by these our Opposers . T.V. The three Holies , Isa. 6.1 . signifie the three persons , ( Contradiction ) the Lord of Hosts , the One God , pag. 33. Contr. J. O. Contradicts T. V. pag. 45. where he saith , That of Isa. 6.1 , 2. three Holy , Holy Holy , is the Lord of Hosts , the whole Earth is full of his glory , applyed unto the Son , Joh. 12.41 , 42. Obs. How palpably one Contradicts another ; one saying the three Holyes signifies three Persons ; the other ( viz. J.O. ) saith , They are applied to the Son , who is but One. This Doctor Owen should correct his Brother Vincent . T.V. The Son being Eternal , this Generation must be Eternal , the personal property of the Son is to be begotten , pag. 36. Contr. T. V. They are three distinct persons from their distinct personal Acts , — ( Contradiction again ) Infiniteness is not applicable to the three distinct personallities , pag. 45. The Son of God is God , is infinite in Power , in Wisdom , and Goodness , and Eternal , pag. 30. Obs. Here manifest Contradiction to himself , shews it self ; as much as to say , That either the Son of God is eternal , and yet not infinite ; or else , That the Son of God being eternal , is not a person distinct from God ; if a Person be not infinite ; but yet the Son of God is infinite in Power , Wisdom , Goodness , &c. How ever these can be reconciled , I leave to the ingenious to judge . T. V. The Father , Word , and Holy Ghost , are three subsistences , pag. 13.43 . not three substances , pag. 13. They are three distinct subsistents , pag. 27. A person is one individual subsistent rather , T.D. pag. 2. Obs. Here they are now put to it what to call them , being not three substances , as T. V. saith , they call them three subsistences . But now it must be subsistents rather . But then in Contradiction to both , Doctor Owen saith , The Holy Ghost is a substance , — a personal subsistence . What differs now between substance and subsistence ? T. D. What the Scripture hath revealed to us , concerning that distinction in the God-head , cannot be apprehended under any other Notion or Resemblance ; which therefore we attribute to God , pag. 3. We know not what to call those three but persons . Contr. T.D. Of the Father , Word , and Spirit , &c. ( from 1 Joh. 1.7 . ) Now all Witnesses , properly so called , are persons , pag. 5. — Then these Witnesses must needs be distinct , pag. 7. Obs. Why is not that Scripture produced all this while , if there be such , as reveal your distinctions and notion of persons in God ? And , why do you not know what to call those three in Heaven but Persons , when T.D. knows how to call them Witnesses ; What ignorance and Contradictions are here ! T. V. From Matth. 3.16 , 17. Herein is a distinction of all the three persons ; — The Son cloathed in Flesh ; The Spirit in the shape of a Dove ; The Father in the Voice , &c. pag. 34. Contr. W.M. The Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , being of an infinite Nature , are three Persons , — Co-essential , Co-equal , Co-eternal , pag. 29. Contr. T.V. The Son being Eternal , his Generation must be Eternal ; the personal property of the Holy Ghost is to proceed from the Father and the Son , pag. 36. Obs. Quest. But was Christ , being cloathed with Flesh , or the Spirits appearing in the shape of a Dove , or being sent , from Eternity ? are these pertinent proofs of their distinct personalities , which are reckoned Co-eternal ? &c. And whether , or to whom was the Spirit sent from Eternity ? T.V. The Holy Ghost is God which W.P. doth deny , pag. 32. his denyal of the Divinity of Christ is plain , pag. 28. Contr. T.V. The Unity of the God-head is not denyed by the Adversaries I have to do withal , pag. 28. Obs. So here the same person that is accused for denying the Divinity of Christ , is in these latter words cleared , as not denying that Unity of the God-head , and to be sure he doth confess the Father , the Word , and the Spirit to be One , being one Divine Substance , and so One God. T. V. The Son is God co-essential , co-equal , co-eternal with the Father , — Christ is infinite in power , wisdom , and goodness , eternal , pag. 29 , 30. T. V. In regard of his humane Nature , the Jewes speak truth , Joh. 8.57 . Thou art not yet fifty years old , as he was a Son of Abraham , and born many generations after him , pag. 31. Obs. Quest. And was not he a Person as he was a Son of Abraham , not fifty years old , if he was ( as I never heard any yet deny , and your Doctrine supposes a Trinity of distinct Persons , as being co-eternal , co-equal , &c. ) doth not this then render Christ ( as a Son of Abraham ) to be a fourth person ? 2. Touching Pardon and Satisfaction . T. V. That God never doth , nor will , nor can pardon any sinner without Satisfaction made to his offended Justice for their sins , because his Holiness , Righteousness , and Truth obligeth him to take Vengeance upon all * that have transgressed his Law , pag. 54. T. V. Christ the eternal Son of God , the second person of this glorious Trinity , — the Doctrine of Satisfaction depending upon this person , — The Lord Jesus Christ proved to be God equal with the Father , pag. 54. Contrad . T. D. Many of us do not affirm any impossibility of forgiveness without Satisfaction ; and for my part , though I know some worthy Persons do deny W. P 's affirmative , yet I cannot joyn with them therein , for to me it is evident , that God is free in his Determinations , what Attribute he will manifest , pag. 17 , 18. Contrad . T. V. God proclaims himself to be gracious and merciful , pag. 60. He is exalted upon the Throne of his Mercy , ready to forgive * sinners , pag. 60 , 61. God was at the Charges of his own Satisfaction , Job 33.24 . pag. 62. Obs. Then it appears , That God had Power to shew himself Gracious ( he willeth not the Death of sinners , but rather their return ) and Merciful , ready to forgive sinners ; ( upon Repentance ) he being at the Charges of his own Satisfaction ( as is said ) in giving his Eternal Son ; who is confessed to be God equal with the Father ; all which in the best sense amounts to this , That God satisfied himself with his own Gift , and without performing his own Will , he could not be satisfied ; And who ever doubted , or made question or Controversie of that , if it were so taken ; but this proves not their unscriptural terms , phrases , and notions of Law supposed in the case , nor yet that God took vengeance on Christ instead of all Transgressors , and they to go free , and yet still sin . T. V. It was necessary that the Person that should make Satisfaction should be a Man , because none but a Creature could suffer , pag. 55. Contrad . T. V. It being impossible for any finite Creature to make plenary Satisfation to the infinite Justice of God which requireth an infinite Satisfaction , pag. 54 , 55. If Christ had not been God as well as Man , the Sufferings and Satisfaction would have been but finite . Obs. First , This Person that should make satisfaction by suffering and death , it seems now is counted a Creature , which yet as such , could not satisfie infinite Justice ( as Contradictorily is confessed ) But as before it 's said , He was the Eternal Son of God , proved to be God , equal with the Father ; but now ( in Contradiction again ) it was as God and Man that he satisfied , whereas it was not as God that he suffered and died ; but we confess that God was in Christ reconciling the World to himself . T.V. Christ did bear the punishment of our sins ( viz. the curse and punishment our sins deserved ) that he might give Satisfaction unto God's Justice , pag. 57 , 58. Obs. Query . But did God undergo that punishment ? surely nay : Or , did Christ as man , undergo that eternal Punishment , Death , and Curse due to sinners ? Could Christ's Death , or Temporal Sufferings be Eternal ? Yet still we confess , That God both had , and hath still full satisfaction and pleasure in his Son Christ the Anointed , the Lamb that was offered without spot to God , a Sacrifice for sin , though your abuse of Christ , confusion and darkness in stating your Matter we cannot own as proceeding from any sence or savour of Christ , either as a Sacrifice or Saviour . T.V. His Righteousness obligeth him to take vengeance upon all that have transgressed * his Law , pag. 54. Our righteousness are as filthy Raggs . Contrad . T. V. He doth Exercise his Justice freely as he doth love his Image in his people freely , pag. 65. Obs. Then your filthy Raggs cannot cover you from his vengeance , for therein you are not in his Image , which he loves freely in his People , and yet you would be accounted his People , where you are , it 's high time for you to Repent , and no longer cover your selves with such Raggs , polluted Garments , — For God will lay you bare and naked . 3. Of Justification . T.D. There is no need of inherent Righteousness for Justification , — ( Contradiction ) — But yet there is need of it to make us meet for Heaven , Col. 1.12 . pag. 45. Contrad . Inherent gives us a fitness for the injoying of it ; ( it lying in Communion with God ) without likeness of disposition , there can be no liking of each other , pag. 46. Obs. What then are persons in a Justified state while they are neither meet for Heaven , not fit to enjoy it ? nor yet partakers of that which makes like to God , and brings into Communion with him ? Which is this inherent Righteousness of Christ ( as it is called ) which T.D. hath shut out as not needful for Justification , — contrary to plain Scripture , 1 Cor. 6.11 . Rom. 2.13 . Jam. 2.21 . Heb. 12.14 . T.D. Satisfaction is a compensation or recompence made to God for injury done him by sin , which may be both by doing and suffering — Vindictive Justice . Contrad . T. V. Godliness is enjoyned upon all , pag. 67. Obs. How then did Christ undergo infinite Wrath from offended infinite Justice , that sinners and sin deserved , when he never sinned ? For here every one is to obey , and answer the pure Law of God , viz. by Godliness ; and if Godliness be enjoyned upon all , I ask , must all remain in a sinful ungodly state ? and Commands to Perfection be construed but as the measure of our duty , according as T. D. saith , pag. 57. who formerly affirmed also , That the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us , was meant in Christ , and not in our persons ; so , then must we look on Christ as his being Godly , Righteous , Obedient to Death , for men , fully to satisfie and take off the Righteous Injunction laid upon them to Godliness , perfect Obedience , &c. That it is to be meant , Christ must be perfect for us , he is to be only the subject of all those Commands enjoyning perfect Obedience , Righteousness , and Holiness , and not we , which is as absurd , and all one as to say , That when God Commands us by his Grace not to sin , but to be perfect , ( or perfectly to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts , and to live godly , soberly , &c. ) — That he all this while intends his Son Jesus Christ as the subject of these Commands ; And whereas he never said , Son Jesus Christ , Do not thou sin , be not thou ungodly , do thou deny worldly lusts , live thou godly , soberly , be thou perfect for all , and it shall satisfie me fully , instead of Perfection or Righteousness in men , seeing none can be perfect or free from sin in this life , &c. But this absurd Course , is the current , tenour , and intent of our Opposers Doctrine ; And yet they must confess , That Christ never sinned , nor could sin , neither was there guile found in his mouth ; so their presenting him only as the subject of perfect Obedience , and not Men , or Believers ; is all one as to say , That all those Commands directed to us for that end , was only intended to Christ ; for T.D. construes his Satisfaction and Payment [ in men's stead ] to consist in both Doing and Suffering , viz. Both in Christ's Obedience and Subjection to the Law , and God's Precepts ; as also to its Penalties and Curses , pag. 19 , 20. But T. V. layeth it upon his Death in their room ; and thus they manifestly Contradict themselves , whereas God was alwayes well pleased or satisfied in Christ , both in his active obedience , and also in his passive subjection to suffering death ( as man ) even in all his whole Conversation , Ministry , Life and Death for Mankind , he being a perfect Sacrifice for sin , but God is not therefore satisfied with man out of Christ , or out of obedience to the Law of his Spirit , but as he comes to be found in Christ , having and possessing his Righteousness within , and the Life and Effects thereof , which doth not admit of sin and imperfection term of life , seeing as is Confessed by T.D. and T.V. That God loves his Image in his People freely , and without likeness of disposition , there can be no likeing of each other ; And surely the Image , likeness , and disposition of God in his People , is pure and perfect , which sin and imperfection bears no resemblance of . T.V. No persons being the subjects of Gospel Justification , but as ungodly , that is , as having sinned . Contrad . T. V. Where he removeth the guilt of sin , he also removeth the filth of sin ; Justification and Sanctification being unseparable Companions , — Justification is never without Sanctification . Obs. See the apparent Contradiction here in this latter to the former ; for here note then , That no Persons are the subjects of Gospel Justification , as ungodly , or as in their sins ; but as being sanctified , and the filth of sin removed ; so then justified not in sin , but in the Truth and Righteousness of Christ ; they being washed , cleansed , and sanctified ; and only such are they that are Justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus , and by the Spirit of God , — 1 Cor. 6.11 . T. D. Satisfaction is not a Scripture phrase , but the thing is found there , to wit , a Compensation made to God for the injury done him by our sin , which may be by doing , or suffering , or both , Justice that is Vindictive , pag. 19. Contrad . T. D. Those places that speaks of the turning away of Divine Wrath by Christ's Obedience , which Wrath is but an Inclination to punish , pag. 22. — Christ's Obedience cannot properly work upon God's Will. [ Contradiction again . ] Contrad . T.D. The Deliverer undergoes that Evil in kind or equivalently , which he that is Delivered , should have undergone , pag. 24. Obs. What Evil was it that sinners deserved or should have undergone ? do you not confess it was the Wrath and Vengeance of God , Hell , Everlasting Damnation , and Punishment from his just hand ? And did Christ the Deliverer undergo all that ! What a strange Object is he here rendred ? and yet he was both God and ( innocent ) Man ? But how doth this hold with that before , That it was but an Inclination to punish ? What apparent Ignorance and Contradiction is here ! And is this the great Glory , Power , Soveraignty , Divine Love , Mercy , and Goodness that you ascribe to the infinite God , to lay such a limit upon him , as that he could not forgive , pardon , or pass by former offences , without exacting not only full Payment , but Revenge and Punishment upon the Surety ( viz. his innocent beloved Son ) even the same in kind due to the Transgressors ; whereas the Scripture saith , The Chastizement of our Peace was upon him : which is not the same with Everlasting Wrath and Vengeance from the immediate hand of God ( which I cannot believe was so laid on Christ ) whose Mercies are over all his Works , and particularly mankind , but his Wrath is revealed against all ungodliness . T.D. Upon actual Faith he layeth aside his anger quite , and becomes our friend , pag. 33. Obs. Then it appears his Anger is not quite laid aside , nor Friendship with him obtained till Actual Faith ; How has T. D. overthrown and given away their Cause herein ? Faith and Repentance must be Experienced , or else Anger is not quite laid aside . T. D. Though the thing be true and owned by us , viz. That Christ could not satisfie God's Justice as Man , — or as God singly , p. 34. Obs. Could not God satisfie himself ! What a strange limitation is here laid upon the infinite God ? And surely as God-Man , ( as your term is ) he was not under the same Evil , Wrath , or Everlasting Punishment , which was due to the Transgressors . For God did not deal so with himself , but he commended his Love to us in that while we were sinners Christ died for us , he died for our sins , but was raised for our Justification ; it was Christ that died , ye● , rather that he is risen again . T. D. The Father's gift of the Son for our Redemption depends on nothing but himself , — Our Doctrine represents not the Son kinder than the Father , — The Father and Son as God , are equally kind to man , and equally angry at man's sin , p. 36 , 37 , 38. Obs. If equally kind to man , then why did T.V. lay such an Impossibility on God of freely pardoning ? [ But then doth T. D. think he amends it , by considering God as a Creditor , and so as a private Person ? pag. 32. Where proves he this in all the Scriptures ? ] And if the Father and Son be equally angry at man's sin , then man must Repent , and forsake his sins before their anger be wholly removed , or either fully pleased , or satisfied concerning man ; For where was there a third Person substituted to pacifie the Anger of both ? Howbeit God was well pleased , and fully satisfied in Christ , and concerning all his Works , Sufferings , and Sacrifice , in order to man's Salvation ; and we are accepted in the Beloved of God , for whose sake , and in whom we have received Remission , Righteousness , Life , and Peace with God , having received Christ ( the Righteousness of God ) for that end . T. D. A state of freedom from sin is not attainable in this life , and yet commanded , Matth. 5.48 . and that no man ever did attain a state of Perfection , pag. 55.57 . T.D. Christ was not ashamed to call us Brethren , Heb. 2.11 . that is fellow subjects , for being one in nature with us , he becoms one with us in an obligation , &c. pag. 20. J.O. Christ gave himself for us , that he might Redeem us from all iniquity , 1 Pet. 1.18 . pag. 160. — It would altogether unbecome the Holy God to pardon sinners that continue so to live and die in their sins , p. 179. T. D. That Mystical Union betwixt Christ and his People , by their dependance upon him , in all the good they do , — is as near and intimate as that of the branches upon the Vine , by vertue of their natural Union in bearing fruit , pag. 47. Some Passages out of Edward Stillingfleet's Discourse of the Sufferings of Christ ; which are evidently Contradictory to John Owen , and Tho. Danson . PAges 269 , & 270. The state of the Controversie hath been rendered more abscure by the mistakes of some who have managed it with greater zeal [a] than judgment ; — they have shot over their Adversaries heads , and laid their own more open to Assaults . It is easie to observe , That most of Socinus his Arguments are Levelled against an Opinion , which few , who have considered those things do maintain , [b] and none need to think themselves obliged to do it , which is , That Christ paid a proper and ridgid Satisfaction for the sins of men , considered under the notion of Debts , and that he paid the very same which we ought to have done , which in the sense of the Law is never called Satisfaction , but strict Payment ; Against this Socinus Disputes from the Impossibility of Christ's paying the very same that we were to have paid , because our penalty was eternal death , — and that as the consequence of inherent Guilt , [c] which Christ neither did , nor could undergo . — If a Mediator could have paid the same , then the Gospel had not been the bringing in of a better Covenant , but a performance of the Old , pag. 271. But if there be a Relaxation [d] or Dispensation of the first Law , then it necessarily follows , That what Christ paid , was not the very same which the first Law required ; for what need of that , when the very same was paid that was in the Obligation . [e] But if it be said , That the dignity of the Person makes up what wanted in the kind or degree of punishment , this is a plain confession , That it is not the same , &c. [f] Besides , if the very same had been paid in the strict sense , there would have followed a deliverance ipso facto , for the Release immediately follows the payment of the same ; and it had been Injustice to have required any thing further , in order to the discharge of the offender , when strict and full payment had been made of what was in the Obligation ▪ [g] But we see that Faith and Repentance , and the Consequences of those two , are made Conditions on our parts , in order to the enjoying the benefit of what Christ hath procured ; so that the Release is not immediate upon the Payment , &c. Page 272. We are to consider that these very Persons assert , That Christ paid all for us , and in our name and stead ; so that the payment by Christ was by a substitution in our room ; and if he paid the same which the Law required , the benefit must immediatly acrue to those in whose Name the Debt was paid ; for what was done in the Name of another , is all one to the Creditor , as if it had been done by the Debtor himself ; But above all things , it is impossible to reconcile the freeness of Remission , with the full Payment , &c. — Neither will it serve to say , That though it was not free to Christ , yet it was to us : for the Satisfaction and Remission must respect the same person , for Christ did not pay for himself , but for us ; neither could the Remission be to him , &c. — It is impossible the same Debt should be fully paid , and freely forgiven ; much less will it avoid the difficulty in this case to say , That [h] it was a refusable Payment , for it being supposed to be the very same , it was not in Justice refusable , &c. pag. 173. Thus when our Adversaries Dispute against this Opinion , no wonder if they do it succesfully ; but this whole Opinion is built upon a Mistake , That Satisfaction must be the payment of the very same ; which while they contend for , they give our Adversaries too great an advantage , and make them think they triumph over the Faith of the Church , when they do it only over the mistake of some perticular Persons , * p. 275. They make the right of punishment meerly to depend on God's absolute Dominion , and that all Satisfaction must be considered under the notion of Compensation for the injuries done to him , — [h] But if we can clearly shew a considerable difference between the Notion of Debts and Punishments , if the right of Punishments doth not depend upon meer Dominion ; and that Satisfaction by way of Punishment , is not primarily entended for Compensation . It is lawful for a man to forgive all the Debts which are owing him , — althoug they assert , That the Justice of God doth never require Punishment in case of Repentance ; but withal they assert , That in case of Impenitency , it is not only agreeable , but due to the nature and decrees , and therefore to the rectitude and equity of God not to give Pardon : If this be true , then there is an apparent difference between the notion of Debts and Punishments , &c. Thus far Edw. Stillingfleet . Obs. Hereby the Reader may see how contrary to Dr. Owen and T. Danson's Notions of Law , Dr. Stillingfleet hath reasoned , and hath seemed to shew more Moderation , and offer more Reason ( in his way and method ) than they have done in these matters : These Passages I was willing to Relate , that the World may see how Inconsistent and Opposite these Doctors , and Learned men , ( so accounted ) are in their Notions , and how they cannot agree among themselves , and also what Confusion men are apt to run into , when they keep not to the plain language of the Scriptures ; Besides had the despised Suffering Quakers but appeared ( as from themselves ) after this method against J. O. and his Brethren , as E. S. hath done , what an offence would it have been unto them , and how ready would they have been to muster up their Forces , and send out their reviling Books * against us , hoping thereby to gain the more favour and esteem , as , Defenders of the Faith of the Church , &c. whereas , it is not the Faith of the Church they defend in their mistakes , whereby they have obscured the state of the Controversie , by managing it with more Zeal than Judgment , according to E. S. his words : Now they may Answer themselves in their Contradictions , and see if they can Reconcile their own Work , before they further meddle against others ; for in the state they are in , the more they strive , the more they 'l Confound themselves , and work their own overthrow . As for their Reviling and nick-Names they give men , that differ , they are but poor Arguments for Confutation , when they are rather to prejudice the Ignorant , than to manifest Truth . Howbeit , whatever men's Notions , or Opinions be , touching Christ or his Sufferings , we have not our Religion and Experience thereof from them , they being uncertain , and weak , in comparison of the Living Truth it self , which in Christ and his Light , is received ; and not in men's Traditions and Notions : And that all may come to know the certain Principle or Light of Christ within , to wait in , to know the Power of Godliness , and those things which concern Life and Salvation : This is the desire of my Soul , for all such as feel a want of true Satisfaction and Peace in their own Souls . Some Passages of Edward Stillingfleet's Sermon Preached before the King , March 13. 1666 / 7. which was Printed by his special command . [a] HE who hath appointed the Rewards and Punishments of the great Day , will then call the Sinner to Accompt , not only for all his other sins , but for offering to lay the Imputation of them upon himself . We have the greatest reason to lay the blame of all our Evil Actions upon our selves , as to attribute the Glory of all our Good unto himself , pag. 16 , 17. [ b ] That God had designed ( they are ready to say ) That man should lead a life free from sin ; Why did he confine the Soul of man to a Body so apt to taint and pollute it ? But , who art thou , O man , that doth find fault with thy Maker ? &c. pag. 17. [b] He hath offered us the assistance of his Grace , and of that Spirit of his , which is greater then that Spirit which is in the World ; He hath promised us those Weapons , whereby we may withstand the Torrent of Wickedness in the World ; we have not only sufficient means of Resistance , but we understand the Danger before hand , pag. 19. [b] Their Consciences still rebuke them sharply for their sins , then in a mighty rage and fury , they charge God himself with Tyranny , as laying impossible Laws upon the Souls of men . But if we either consider the Nature of the Command , or the Promises which accompany it , or the large Experience to the contrary , we shall easily discover that this Pretence is altogether unreasonable ; for , what is it that God requires of men , as the Condition of their future Happiness , which in its own Nature is judged Impossible ? Is it for men to live Soberly , Righteously , Godly , in this World ? for that was the end of Christian Religion , &c. Is it to do as we would be done by ? Is it to maintain a Universal Kindness and Good Will to men ? That indeed is the great Excellency of our Religion , that it so strictly requires it ; but if this be impossible , farewel all good Nature in the World , pag. 21 , 22. [b] Their own mouths will Condemn them , when they charge God with laying impossible Lawes upon Mankind . — Yet such is the unlimited Nature of Divine Goodness , and the exceeding Riches of God's Grace , that he makes a large and free offer of Assistance to all those who are so senseable of their own infirmity , as to beg it of him : And can men then say the Command is impossible , when he hath promised an assistance sutable to the nature of the Duty , and infirmities of men ? pag. 23. — Hath he not made use of the most obliging motives to perswade us to the Practice of what he requires , by the infinite discovery of his own Love , the Death of his Son , and the Promise of his Spirit ; and what then is wanting , but only setting our selves with a serious Obedience to them , to make his Commands not only not impossible , but easie to us , pag. 24. Thus far E.S. Obs. Here observe , That E.S. hath Asserted Truth , contrary to the Presbyterians and Independants : 1st . On the behalf of the Freeness and Sufficiency of God's Grace to Mankind , for the Fulfilling or Obeying of God's Commands . 2dly . In his Asserting the Possibility of man's Obeying them thereby , which amounts to Perfection and Freedom from Sin , as being attainable by those Divine Helps that God affords man for that end . 3dly . In Reproving them , that being sharply rebuked in their Consciences for sin , do charge God with laying impossible Lawes on men , which is no less than to charge him with Cruelty , or Tyranny . The CONCLUSION . The sum of the Controversie between us and our present Opposers , consists in these following Heads . 1st . FIrst , I Affirm , That their distinguishing the Deity , or God-head into Three separate ( or finite ) Personalities , and to reckon the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost not Infinite , is Anti-scriptural , Erroneous , and Blasphemous . 2dly . That their Affirming Christ not to be Innocent but Guilty of our sins when he Suffered ( is Blasphemous ) and so their deeming , that the Suffering he underwent , was the same Revenge or Vengeance from God ( which they term Vindictive Justice ) that 's due to Wicked men , Reprobate Angels , and Devils ( this is false also ) and that upon that ground , their stating the matter of Satisfaction to Divine Justice , as otherwise , It being impossible 〈◊〉 God to Pardon , &c. All this is to charge God with Injustice and Cruelty against his Innocent Son , and is , in the first place , Blasphemous against Christ ; and in the next , its Impious , to the dishonour of both Father and Son. 3dly . Their Affirming Christ but to have died but for a few , and not for all men ; and that his being a Propitiation , or Sacrifice , is but for some of all sorts ( of Jewes and Gentiles ) and not for the sins of the whole World , is contrary to plain Scripture , and repugnant to the free Grace and gift of God to all . 4thly . Their Affirming , That Christ doth not enlighten every man with a spiritual saving Light , but with a natural insufficient Light ; is an Erroneous Doctrine of Darkness , and Antichrist , and repugnant both to Christ , and God's free Grace , and Love in him to Mankind . 5thly . Their Affirming Perfection , or freedom from sin , not to be attainable in this Life ; and so their arguing for sin term of Life , is Antichristian , and of the Devil ; being against the Commands and Promises of God , and against the Power and Coming of Christ , and frustrates the end of his Suffering , Sacrifice , and Manifestation . 6thly . Their Notion of Imputation of Christ's Righteousness , to impure , sinful , rebellious Persons , who are not partakers of it in themselves , nor yet in that Faith which purifies the heart ; and thereupon their reckoning them Righteous in God's account , is a false Notion , and none of God's , nor Christ's Imputation ; but as Gross , Erroneous , and Impious , as their imputing sin to Christ as not being Innocent when he Suffer'd , but Guilty , &c. 7thly . And their Affirming men to be Justified , or in a Justified state , by an Imputed Righteousness , whilst actually sinful and unjust ; is as false , and as great abomination , as he that Justifieth the Wicked , and he that Condemneth the Just ; or as they are that Condemn Christ as not being Innocent , and Justifie sinful men ( or Hypocrites ) as being Righteous , whose Faith is but empty , dead , and feigned . 8thly . So their Affirming men to be Imputatively Righteous , when inherently and actually sinful ; or Imputatively saved , when actually damned : And all their Doctrines that tend to dishonour God , or Christ , and to give People ease and liberty in sin , are to be denied as Erroneous , Antichristian , and Devillish . And here in opposition to our Ridgid Opposers , both those of Presbyterians and Independants ( concerned in these Doctrines ) I further Affirm as followeth ; First , That the Three that bear Record in Heaven , the Father , the Word , and the Spirit ( or the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost ) are One , and inseparable ; no where in Scripture called Three separate Persons , nor finite in Personalities ; though three [ in manifestation ] and so testified of ( as Three Witnesses ) for the Confirmation of the Testimony of the Gospel . Secondly , That Christ was Innocent and not Guilty when he Suffered ( he was Just that Suffered for the Unjust ) seeing he freely , in the Love of God to man , gave and offered himself , by the Eternal Spirit , a Lamb without spot to God ; so that he was an Offering well pleasing , a sweet smelling savour , and so a most acceptable and satisfactory Sacrifice to God for all men . — It being also possible for God , and he doth Pardon men upon Repentance for Christ's sake , without either accounting Christ not Innocent or Guilty of men's sins , and without either exercising the same Rigour of Punishment , Eternal Death , or Vengeance upon him , that 's due to Reprobates and Devils : For it was in one and the same Love , mutual Condescention , and a Spirit of Compassion and Forgiveness , both in the Father and in the Son , towards Mankind , that Christ was given a Ransom , or in which ( as it 's said ) God sent his Son , and Christ gave himself , &c. Thirdly , That Christ gave himself a Ransom for all men , and by the Grace of God * tasted Death for every man , being a Propitiation for the sins of the whole World , to shew forth , and give Testimony of God's Love and Grace towards all Mankind . Fourthly , That Christ inlightens every man that cometh into the World , with a spiritual saving Light , which they that believe in , and follow , do receive Life in him the true Light ( however Darkness oppose or deny it ) and they that reject , or hate his Light , are condemned , and left without excuse before the Lord by it . Fifthly , That Perfection and freedom from sin , is attainable in this Life to all that believe in the Power of Christ for that end , what ever the Devil and his Ministers say to the contrary . Sixthly , That while Persons are impure or sinful , not experiencing the Work of God in them , nor the Living Faith in it's Operation , nor Sanctification in them , God doth not impute Christ's Righteousness to them , nor reckon it theirs , they being out of it in the Unregenerate state , not come to know the Image of God renewed in them ; for men are not imputedly Righteous when actually sinners ( as impiously hath been Asserted ) nor imputedly saved , when actually damned ▪ no more then imputatively Saints , while actually Devils . Seventhly , Neither doth God account men Justified , or reckon them Righteous , whilst they are really unjust , being reproved and judged as Unrighteous by his Light and Spirit in them ; for God's accompts and reckonings are true and Righteous , and he Just and True in all his wayes , and his Judgments are Right , and he can no more therein Contradict his own Light , in Man , or it's Judgment and Testimony , than he can oppose or deny himself . Eighthly , The Unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God ; and the Wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men ; they that are ( or continue ) actually sinful and polluted , are neither acquitted nor Righteous in God's account , but must bear their Iniquity , which will be their ruine , unless they Return and be reconciled in their minds to the Light of Christ within ( which reproves them of sin and evil ) and so except men Repent and forsake their sins , they shall surely perish ; they that neglect the great Salvation , cannot escape Condemnation . — If I sin against thee , then thou markest me , and thou wilt not acquit me from mine Iniquity , Job 10.14 . Psal. 32. God imputes sin to none , but them in whom it is in being ; so he imputes nor Righteousness to any , but them in whom it is ; as the blessed man , to whom God imputeth not sin , &c. in his Spirit there is no guile . Finally , All that profess to be Ministers of the Gospel , and Teachers of others , ought to Preach or Teach nothing but what may make , or tend to the Glory of God , and Honour of Christ Jesus , in the Exaltation of Truth and Righteousness in the Earth , and all the Contrary ( as all sin and sinful Doctrines , with all sin-pleasing and sinners-soothing Principles ) to be abhorred , rejected , and opposed by all professing Christianity , that tender the Honour of Christ , and desire the Exaltation of his Kingdom , which stands in Righteousness . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65863-e5970 T.V. his Contradictions . Notes for div A65863-e8460 W. Madox . * Christ's Divinity owned . * The Vnity of the Deity and Divinity of Christ , Asserted . * A poor Tryal . * The Father , the Word , and the Spirit , truly confessed by us , according to the Scriptures ; but these Priests mis-calling them , denyed . * See our Opposers blasphemous Distinctions , and Contradictions . * W. M's Rayling . * Presbyters vain & prophane babling , confusion and blaspphemous work . * Contradictions . * The Pit they have digged for others , they are fallen into themselves . Notes for div A65863-e11630 Here you may see T.V. his invented un-scriptural riddle . Notes for div A65863-e13560 * Yet [ in Contradiction ] they other whiles state it as an Act of Law , and Contract between Creditor and Surety , depending on Christ as a second Person ; but [ in Contradiction again ] 't is as God-Man , ( as their words are . ) * Where then is his absolute Power and soveraignity so much profest ? Confusion and Distractions . * For a life in sin , is not God's terms . * But J. Owen confesseth otherwise , That God requireth Faith and Repentance in Sinners antecedently to their Participation of Pardon . * This being God's Pleasure in both , where do the Scripture , call it his Vindicative Justice upon him , as T. V 's words are ; which J. O. and T. D. call Vindictive Justice ; but by what Scripture we know not ; for the Scripture calls it , the Chastizement of our Peace that was on him . * The Souls that he hath made , his Justice doth not with-hold pity from them to gain upon them . Heb. 12.9 , 10 , 11. Notes for div A65863-e17030 * It was Christ's Persecutors that charged , or imputed Sin , Guilt , and Blasphemy to him ; and so such they are that impute Righteousness to wicked or sinful Persons . T.V. Notes for div A65863-e19200 ‖ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Three Witnesses . Page 14. Page 16. ‖ Here they deny the full satisfaction ( or plenary , as they call it . ) ‖ Here T. D. hath shot at us in the Devil's Bow ▪ as formerly he confessed he did . ‖ But man in the faln state is worse then meerly a Debtor ; for he is a Malefactor , guilty of high Offences and Crimes against the pure Law of God , for which he must feel Justice in the Ministration of the Law and Sentence of death inwardly upon the Transgressor , before he receive and enjoy the attonement , ransom and peace with God. ‖ Though God was alwayes well pleased and satisfied in Christ , in his doing and Suffering , and as he was a Sacrifice for Sin ; yet this is not enough for us to profess and believe , without knowing the Work of Christ , and Effect of his Sufferings and Righteousness within , and his Spirit to make intercession , &c. Rom. 8. Phil. 3.9.10 . Of Justication . To Justifie , what it is . Of Perfection . Of the Light within . Of the Scriptures . Of Baptism and the Lords Supper . ‖ Rather Hireling at Sandwich . Galat. 3.4 . Chapters . Of the Resurrection . 1 Cor. 15.35 , 36 , 37 , 38. Notes for div A65863-e27180 Pag. 156 , 157 , and 160. Pag. 163. and 176. Pag. 178. and 180. ‖ But what a strange instance is that of J. O. that God cannot lye , he cannot deny himself , &c. to prove that he cannot freely pardon sin , &c. pag. 178. as if the one were as much contrary to his nature as the other , and yet upon Faith and Repentance ( which are his gifts ) he doth pardon his Creature man. Note also that J. O. to the Reader saith of his Authors , that many of them do expressly blame some of the School-men , as Aquinus Durandus Biel Tartaretus , for granting a possibility of pardon without satisfaction , as opening a way to the Socinian error ; See here J. O's Authors , & great able learned defenders , how they censure and contradict one another , yet he would have men be wary how they censure them notwithstanding . ‖ Who with his Brethren were fully manifested and confuted by Sam. Fisher in his Book stiled Rusticus , &c. never yet answered by them , nor like to be . ‖ For it was committed into the hands of the Father , and was that day in Paradice . ‖ Whether his Soul's travel and suffering under the burthen of Mans Transgression , also , even till he was in an Agony , or his Body suffering under the violence of the wicked hands to death , and the shedding of his Blood , &c. And why hast thou forsaken me ? Mat. 27.46 . implies a deep suffering for Sinners under a cloud of Affliction ; yet not the Infinite Wrath , or Eternal Death that 's due to the Wicked who reject God's Love and good will that 's tendred in Chirst ; we desire all may have as good an esteem of Christ in his Sufferings , as may be ; but methinks you Professors do ascribe very mean honor to Christ and his Sufferings , who therein reckon him not innocent , but guilty of your sins ; and therefore that he suffered the same Vengeance , or Vindictive Justice due to Reprobate Angels and Devils , is this the Dignity you confer upon Christ ? Oh Miserable ! ‖ For if but a little Storm or Persecution comes to try you , its probable the Back-doors , Back-wayes , Closets , Cole-holes , Garrets or Cock-lofts , with the Back-leads , &c. may stand you , Professors , in some stead , as they have done many of you ; otherwise , if there be no such By-wayes to make an escape , and run away ; the Table spread with Victuals , or Beer and Tobaco may stand for a colour and pretence in your Meetings ( as they have in some of them ) to delude those that shall oppose you , and make them believe a lie , and discover what spirit and religion Independants and Presbyterians are of . Notes for div A65863-e29890 W. M. * See his shuffle here , for neither Nature nor Man simply can be called Three distinct separate Persons , as Peter , James , and John were ; and as they say , the Father , Word , and Spirit , are . Contradict . * That was not Christ. * Where then is the Impossibility in him for it ? see Matth. 19.26 . Luk. 1.37 . Contr. to the former * Not upon his beloved Son Christ. All which Contradict their Doctrine of Imperfection , and prove our Principle ; and then their filthy Raggs of self-Righteousness , and best Performances , which are sinful , are shut out of both Union and Intimacy with Christ , as not proceeding from any true dependance upon him , or that Spirit and Truth wherein the True and Living God is Worshipped by all such as are of the true Circumcision . Notes for div A65863-e33410 In the Margent are J. Owen and T. Danson 's Doctrines . [a] Jo. Owen . For the term of Satisfaction , — the right understanding of the word it self , depends on some Notions of Law , that as yet we need not take into Consideration , pag. 150. [b] J. O. He ( Christ ) bare our sins , or the punishment due unto them , pag. 160. He answered the Law , and the penalty of it , pag. 161. T.D. The deliverer undergoes the evil in kind , which he that is delivered should have undergone , pag. 24. Obs. Here is as much opposition between these men and Dr. Still . as if J. O. should say , It was the very same punishment , &c. but E. S. Nay ; It was not the very same , &c. [c] T. D. Christ when he suffered was not Innocent , and when God required satisfaction of him , it was due from him , &c. [d] J.O. God as supream Ruler , dispenseth not with the Act of Law , but the immediate object , and substitutes another Sufferer in the room of them who are principally lyable unto the sentence , &c. [e] J. O. The Son of God — was upon the account of the Dignity of his Person , able to Answer the Penalty which all others had incurred . [f] J.O. That God — did so lay our sins in and by the sentence of the Law upon him , &c. pag. 166. [g] T. D. God admits of what Christ did on our behalf , as if it had been our personal Act , as the Creditor Cancels the Bond , le ts the Debtor out of Prison , and gives him as Legal a Discharge upon the Sureties payment , &c. Observe T. D's words below , whereupon , 1. I ask if refusable Payment , how then is God bound to take Vengeance , in T. V. his sense ? 2. If another thing be paid , How agrees this with J. O? For , [h] T. D. Supposes , That Satisfaction to be Solutio recusabilis , Refusable payment ; — dum alius solvit , aliud solvitur ; — When another Person then what was obliged makes payment , — another thing is paid , then what the Law required . — * As J. O. T. D. & T. V. they being the Mistakers . [h] T.D. That Christ made a Compensation to God , for the Injury done him by our sin , which may be both by doing and suffering Justice , that is Vindictive . — * For which — see their railing Language [ as Black-mouthed Blasphemers , hiddeous Blasphemers , with Socinian and damnably Heretical Opinions , &c. ] used by T. V. ] They may receive a Check from Dr. Stillingfleet , to the Reader , viz. It may be some will be dissatisfied , that I give our Adversaries no harder Names , but I never found any men convinced by ill Language ; and those we have to deal withal , are too subtile , not to distinguish between loud Clamours and Demonstrations . I leave that Method of Confuting them , to those who have greater Abilities in that way . I think it very Incongruous for us , while we Magnifie the Patience and Meekness of Christ in his Sufferings , to discover our Passion , in Disputing about them . Notes for div A65863-e34320 [a] T. Danson . Christ when he Suffered was not Innocent , and when God required Satisfaction of him , it was due from him ; Christ was guilty of our sin , when he Suffered for it , Synopsis pag. 36. Christ was made sin by Imputation , therefore , so are we made Righteous , pag. 40. [b] T.D. A state of freedom from sin is not attainable in this life ; — No man ever did attain a state of Perfection ( viz. none of the eminently Holy Persons in the Scripture ) pag. 55. Yet Perfection is commanded , — Be ye therefore perfect as your Heavenly Father , &c. Mat. 5.48 . Such Commands are the measure of our Duty , not of our Attainments , pag. 57. [b] T.D. A state of freedom from sin is not attainable in this life ; — No man ever did attain a state of Perfection ( viz. none of the eminently Holy Persons in the Scripture ) pag. 55. Yet Perfection is commanded , — Be ye therefore perfect as your Heavenly Father , &c. Mat. 5.48 . Such Commands are the measure of our Duty , not of our Attainments , pag. 57. [b] T.D. A state of freedom from sin is not attainable in this life ; — No man ever did attain a state of Perfection ( viz. none of the eminently Holy Persons in the Scripture ) pag. 55. Yet Perfection is commanded , — Be ye therefore perfect as your Heavenly Father , &c. Mat. 5.48 . Such Commands are the measure of our Duty , not of our Attainments , pag. 57. Notes for div A65863-e34840 * His tasting Death , was not the Revenge that the Wicked have incurred ; neither is Grace Revenge . 
A71239	----	The son of perdition revealed by the brightness and light of the Son of God in his saints, and the preachers of his light within and their doctrines & principles (concerning the mysteries of God & the weighty things of salvation) vindicated and cleared ... / by the light of the Son of God in his servants Geo. Whitehead & Edw. Burroughs. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1661 Approx. 201 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 46 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A71239 Wing W1962 ESTC R21454 12297013 ocm 12297013 59054 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A71239) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 59054) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 930:25 or 1587:16) The son of perdition revealed by the brightness and light of the Son of God in his saints, and the preachers of his light within and their doctrines & principles (concerning the mysteries of God & the weighty things of salvation) vindicated and cleared ... / by the light of the Son of God in his servants Geo. Whitehead & Edw. Burroughs. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. [22], 67 [i.e 69] p. Printed for Thomas Simmons ..., London : 1661. Errata: p. 67 [i.e. 69] Reproduction of originals in the Huntington Library and the Bodleian Library. Item at reel 1587:16 identified as Wing B6027 (number cancelled in Wing 2nd ed.). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Controversial literature. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-04 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-05 Melanie Sanders Sampled and proofread 2005-05 Melanie Sanders Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Son of Perdition REVEALED , By the brightness and light of the Son of God in his Saints : And the Preachers of his Light within , and their Doctrines & Principles ( concerning the mysteries of God & the weighty things of Salvation , Vindicated and Cleared , from the Reproache● Slanders & Calumnies cast upon them by the spirit of Satan and Antichrist , which hath largely appeared in one Joseph Wright , ( who esteems himself one appointed by the Flock of Christ for a Defence of the Truth of the Gospel ) as is apparent in his Book intituled A Testimony for the Son of man and against the Son of perdition ; &c. which he hath given forth against them that preach the Light within . But herein his Pride , Insolency and Impudency are Reproved , and his bundle of Errors , Blasphemies Confusions and Slanders ( in his book against the Light and the Children of it ) Discovered . And the eternal Truth in its own clearnesse ( touching many weighty Principles of the True Religion ) made manifest , for the satisfaction of the people , and of all that are doubtful . By the Light of the Son of God in his Servants , Geo. Whitehead & Edw. Burroughs . LONDON , Printed for Thomas Simmons at the sign of the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate , 1661. A Table of the Chief Heads of the following Discourse . 1 COncerning the Light within , Christs coming in the flesh , and dying for all men . 2 Concerning the Nature and State of Christ , of the soul of man , and of the Saints partaking of the Divine Nature . 3 Concerning the Resurrection from the dead . 4 Concerning that Light in the Consciences of people , which the Preachers of the Light within appeal to , and the subject of their Exhortations by which men are converted and edified . 5 Concerning Ordinances . 6 Concerning Quaking and Trembling . 7 Concerning the sufficiency of the Light , and the Annointing within , to teach all that do believe . 8 Concerning meeting together , and silent waiting upon the Lord , with somewhat about Back-sliders , and the spirit that acts them . 9 Concerning Humility and Vnity . 10 Concerning destroying the Whore , discovering secrets and sufferings , &c. 11 Concerning the Word of God , and the Scriptures , and the Word and the Writings truly distinguished . 12 Concerning the Infallible Teacher , and that it is the Spirit of God that gave forth the Scriptures , and not the Scriptures . The Epistle to the Reader . FOR as much as it hath pleased the God of Truth and Righteousness , most gloriously to appear in these last dayes in the hearts of his people , according to his promises of old , who hath said , That he would exalt his Mountain upon the top of all Mountains , and his House should be established , and his Kingdome should be set up spiritually in the Hearts of the Children of men ; and he hath promised to dwell in men , and to walk in them , and write his Law in their Hearts , and put his Spirit within them , and they should be his People , and he would be their God , and he alone would be their Teacher and Comforter , and his Day-star should arise in their Hearts , and the Light of his Glorious Gospel should shine in their Consciences . These things hath the Lord promised , and he is a fulfilling of them in these our dayes in and amongst his People , Blessed be his Name for ever , for he hath opened the eyes of the blind and caused them to see , and Light is risen out of obscurity , and darkness is passing away , and the Light of the Day , even of the Day of God is approached nigh unto his People , and Life and Immortality hath he brought to Light in his People , by the Light of his Glorious Gospel which shines in their Hearts ; and they are become the Temple of the Holy One , and his Habitation is with them , and his Promises are fulfilled and fulfilling abundantly this Day ; our Eyes have seen , our Ears have heard , and we have tasted of the VVord of Life which is revealed in us , and these things we cannot but bear witness of , and testifie concerning them unto all the world that they may partake with us of that heavenly virtue , and be satisfied therewith for evermore , through faith in Christ Jesus , and receiving of him to dwell in them , that they may not be reprobates , for all in whom Christ is not , are reprobates , as it is written in the Scriptures of Truth . But notwithstanding , though the Lord hath promised these things , and is now fulfilling of them amongst us to his Glory and Honour : yet that adversary the Devil and Satan , doth not cease to make opposition against this good work of the Lord , if it were possible to prevent and stop the purpose of the Almighty in his proceedings of fulfilling his promises unto his people ; and it is not unknown through these parts of the world , how many and divers kinds of oppositions the Devil hath made through his Children against the VVork of God ; What woful Persecution of these late rears hath been brought forth upon the Innocent people in whom the Lord is fulfilling his Promises ? What cruelty exercised ? What reproaches and slanders uttered ? And what obstructions and oppositions hath been made of these late years against an Innocent people , t is hard to be exprest ; every City and Town and Country must bear witness of that cruel Persecution and hard dealing that hath been exercised upon the Innocent people , and for no other end , but for Truth and Righteousnesse fake , and from no other cause , but from the enmity of the seed of Wickednesse in the ungodly world , for the end to oppose and stop the work of the Lord , and these things are so , God , and Angels , and Saints , do bear witnesse . And also the opposition hath been great against the work of the Lord , not onely by outward open opposition and persecution through prophane and cruel men , but also by the Professors of Religion of our age , even of such as have cryed , the Temple of the Lord , the Temple of the Lord are we , and such as have professed Ordinances , Churches and Fellowships , and that have thought themselves to be men of Wisdome and Conscience , even such as these have lift up their hands against the Lords Work , and have consulted and imagined mischief against the Lords interprize ; for as the prophane World have persecuted by cruel reproaches and abuses , Imprisonments and unjust dealing as aforesaid ; so also have the professors and wise men of this Generation Preached , and Prayed , and written Books , and published their principal Reasons and Arguments against the Way of the Lord , and all this in the opposition to the Work of the Lord ; an evidence hereof is manifested by Joseph Wright in his Testimony for the Son of Man , ( so called ) in which Book he hath fully opposed and gain sayed the Truth of the Gospel , and the People bearing witness thereunto , amongst whom the Work of the Lord is blessed and prosperous , yet hath he partly out of Ignorance , and partly out of malice , set himself in opposition against the work of the Lord , and against his Truth and people as aforesaid . And his said Book occasionally coming to my hand by a Friend of mine , in the fourth month last as I remember , and I looked into the Book and read some part of it over , and did fully observe the current of the matter conteined in it , and the drift and intent of the Spirit of the Author , and in my Meditations upon the same I found his work composed and made up of such kind of ingredients as these following . First , Ignorance . Secondly , Malice . Thirdly , Lyes and Slanders . Fourthly , Contradictions . And fifthly , Downright opposition to the Truth . I say , a certain composition I found in his Book made up of all these mixtures , which he had published to the world . 1 His Ignorance was apparent to me , in asmuch as he had in some things mistaken , and placed such and such things upon Account against us ignorantly , and then seemed to confute them , and give his Judgment against us thereupon , and this meerly upon mistake through Ignorance , fasly supposing we held such a thing , which indeed we held not , and so flying out against us in Judgment upon his ignorance and mistakes . 2 His Malice was apparent , in asmuch as he had slandered us , and belied us without good Ground and Cause at all , having perverted our words and meaning in many things , and placed things against us , deeply charging of us without any sound Reason at all rendred by him , but meerly ( as to me doth appear ) upon his own malice and hatred , purposely to render us odious to the World and to our enemies , which must needs be out of malice and emnity , and not out of love and Gentleness to inform us better , and convert us if wee had been in error ; But I found him to be so far from that Spirit of love and good will towards us , that he hath taken every occasion he could , and also made occasions falsly , to traduce us and to reproach us in the sight of our Enemies , as it were on purpose to enrage the Spirit of the ungodly world to destroy us . 3 His lyes and slanders were apparent in such an abundant manner throughout his Book , that every page almost had some contained , even as great reproaches and accusations as well could be , as if we were Hereticks , deniers of Christ , having familiar Spirits , Witches and what not ; Such kind of lyes and slanders as these I found a very great number in his Book ; it is true , I have not accounted them in particular , but made a guesse at the whole sum , which I suppose may be above 200 of Lyes , Slanders , Callumnies , falsereproaches , Back-bitings , Bitter words and such like . 4 His Contradictions were apparent throughout his book in divers particulars , sometimes saying thus and so , and sometimes quite contrary , sometimes accusing us of one occasion , and some time accusing us of a contrary ; And thus his contradictions were made manifest , as in our Answer is at large discovered , as the Reader may observe . 5 His down-right opposition to the Truth was apparent , in as much as throughout his book he hath opposed the very Truth of the Gospel , as particularly the Light of Christ which every man in the World is enlightned withall ; and concerning Quaking and Trembling , and concerning the anointing and the sufficiency of its Teaching , and concerning destroying the Whore , the Word of God and Scriptures ; all these things cum multis aliis , &c. he hath opposed and gainsayed directly or indirectly ; and thus as is made manifest in this following Answer , his whole work is compounded of such mixtures and ingredients as aforesaid , as every impartial man may judge . Well , upon my further Considerations of his Book , I found he had subtilly directed the current of his matter so as it might be taken notice of to be an eminent Work , as he thought , and yet not so to be taken notice of , as if he had directed it immediatly is opposition to us called Quakers ; for I found not that name once mentioned in all his Book , and yet implicitely he had directed it to us , for his intent was I discovered to be against us , by that word so often scornfully rehearsed To the Preachers of and to the Light within all men , &c. And by divers other things I found that his Book was intendedly against us ; and also that his said Book well deserved an Answer from us , that the malicious intent thereof might be diverted , though many other Considerations presented themselves in my mind at my first looking into his work , as 1. The unreasonablenesse of the time of its bringing forth and publication to the world , ( thought I ) is this a time and fit season for us and them to fall into contention one with another , and to oppose each other , to the end , to discourage and dishearten each other in the sight of our publique Enemies , who stands ready themselves to devour us both , and by all means seeks occasions against us , and to ruine us both , if it were possible , who doth account us as two parties of their greatest adversaries , and are persecuting and imprisoning of us as one in opposition to them , and would be glad to see us destroyed ; and it being thus with both us and the Baptists ( so called ) thought I again how unseasonable this mans work is at this day , to fall to reproach us and traduce us in the fight of our Enemies , thus opposing of us with tooth and nail , giving thereby occasion both to his and our enemies to mock at us and laugh us to scorn , rejoycing to see us whom they count their Enemies falling together by the ears , and as it were tearing one another ; this I knew would be a great occasion to them against us both in such a season as this , when as it would have been more meet to have encouraged one another and strengthned one another in the way of Truth and Righteousnesse , and to have been helpfull to one another in our afflictions and sufferings , esp●cially in the things wherein we do agree , against the common open prophanenesse , and idolatry , and persecution which abounds at this day in the world , that we might have been a rejoycing one to another as Brethren in Truth , seeing we are both a suffering People at this day , and accounted Brethren by our Enemies , rather then a cause of affliction and grief , and greater tribulation one to another , as this same J. W. had endeavoured in his Book to be the occasion of ; this and such like was my considerations , upon which I concluded the unseasonablenesse of the time of publication of his Book , and the folly and weaknesse of its Publisher . 2. I considered the errour and ignorance of the man , in respect of the subject of his matter as stated by him and prosecuted , which is this , against and in opposition to the Light within , many times rehearsed oppositely and scornfully to the Preachers of and to the L●ght within all men , making this the subject matter of his opposition , as if it were the greatest heresie that could be , that any should preach up a Light within , and this I found he had set himself to oppose with might and main ; and this I found to be the principal Subject of his Treatise , because of which I considered the great ignorance of this man that would appear upon such a subject in such great opposition against it , whenas no one Truth is more full and clear throughout the whole Scriptures , then this Doctrine of the Light within , both in the old Testament and the new ; as first of all , Deut. 30.11 , 12 , 14. where Moses the servant of God did preach to a●l Israel in general , bo●h good and bad , the word that was nigh them in their hearts , and be exhorted them to bear that word that was within them , and to do it , and this word was in every one of them , to which Moses did exhort them to hear it and obey it and thus its manifest that Moses was a Preacher of the word of God , and his light within men . Again Jer. 31. God promised to make a new Covenant with the House of Israel , I will put my Law in their inward parts , and write it in their hearts , and they shall know Me ( saith the Lord ) from the least of them to the greatest , and they shall need no more , every man to teach his Neighbour , but the Law in their inward parts , and his Spirit within them should teach them ; And thus it is plain , the Prophet Jeremiah was sent with a Message of God , to Preach the Promise ( to wit ) the Spirit of God put in the inward parts , and his Law written in their Hearts ; and thus was he a Preacher of the Light and Law of God within men ; And David said , Thy Law is within my Heart , Psal. 49. Again Luke 17.20 , 21. When they asked Jesus Christ concerning the Kingdom of Heaven , he said , The Kingdome of Heaven is within you ; and in divers other places his Parrables signified , That the loast Groat was within , and that the Pearl was within , and that the Seed of the Kingdom of God was sown in their Hearts , Mat. 13.19 . and Rom. 10.18 . By all which and many other places it is an evident truth , that Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul were Preachers of the Kingdom of Heaven within men , and of the Seed of the Kingdom which was sown in their Hearts , and of the Word of God within in the Heart ; and so it may be said , Christ was a Preacher of Light within , for he told them of his Word abiding within them , John 5.38 . and they had not the love of God in them , 42. vers . John 14.20 . And Christ said , I am in my Father , and you in me , and I in you , and if my words abide in you , ye shall ask what ye will ; and thus it is as clear as the Sun at noon day , that Christ was a Preacher of the Spirit , and of the Light , and of the Word , and of the love of God within men . Again , the Apostles preached the same , 2 Cor. 13. Chap. and the fifth , Jesus Christ is in you saith the Apostle except you be reprobates and Phil. 2.13 . It is God that works in you , said the Apostle , and Col. 3.16 . Let the word of Christ dwell in you , and 1 John 2.14 . And the word of God abideth in you , and verse 24. Let that abide in you which you have heard from the beginning , and Ephesians 3.20 . according to the power that works in us , and 2 Tim 1 , 14. The Holy Ghost which dwells in us , and 1 John 4.12 . God dwelleth in us , and his love is perfected in us ; and thus throughout the whole current of Scripture I might bring multitudes of proofs ; the Apostles were Ministers and Preachers of the Light within , the word of God within , the Love of God within , the Holy Ghost within , Christ within , yea and God within the Saints ; yea , if this will not serve to prove that it is the Ministry of Christ Jesus to preach the light and word of God within men , I should yet bring many more proofs out of the Scriptures to manifest that Christ and his Apostles preached the Light within men , not onely in the Saints but in unbelievers ; take one Scripture more , 2 Cor. 4.6 . The Light hath shined in our hearts to give us the Light of the Knowledge of the Glory of God ; and thus it is clearly proved out of the Scriptures against J. W. that the Prophets Christ and the Apostles were Preachers of the Light and Truth and Spirit within ; And when I considered at large this same subject of his whole discourse , it appeared somewhat strange to me , that any reasonable man should draw up such a Subject to make a whole Book of opposition against it , like as it he had never read Scriptures , seeing he had thus stated his matter intendedly against us called Quakers , thinking by steering such a course be should confute us in some errours , whenas it s fully manifest that he hath steered his course in direct opposition to the Scriptures and the Truth therein contained ; and therefore we may conclude of his ignorance and errour , who hath thus justified the Truth of our Principles and Doctrines while he hath thought to oppose them and confute them as errours , and so overthrown himself . 3 , I considered concerning returning an Answer to his Book , and I found it meet that it should be answered , for the end to clear the way of Truth from his false and foul aspersions , which were made up by whole groces in his Book , and also least he should glory and vaunt himself in his solly , as if none were able to answer him , nor to detect him of falshood , though I was not hasty in falling aboard upon him , and that for divers reasons . First , because my occasions were then very many and weighty , and that of far greater moment to be prosecuted then to leave them for answering of him . 2. Because I saw no great occasion of present hast to fall upon him and to detect his unworthy work , for as to my own particular I could have let his Book have passed without an Answer , and all his Lyes , and Calumnies , and Falshoods passed without hurt to our particulars , for we are satisfied in the Truth of our way thousands of us blessed be God , notwithstanding all mens opposition . 3. Because I would not willingly and hastily have given our publick enemies occasion to mock and scorn at us while they beheld us as it were tearing one another , and contending one against another , to the weakning of our selves and strengthning of them ; nor should I but upon this occasion have appeared publick in this manner against any suffering people , for it hath ever been my quality to comfort the afflicted and sufferers rather then to adde affliction to them ; but upon this occasion , I am forced to with-stand the insolency of Io. Wright , to reprove his lyes and slanders , and that publickly to the view of the world , and it could not well be avoided , so upon these reasons with some others the Book lay by me divers weeks , till at last I have taken it under hand , for I have heard a report of some boasting amongst J.W. his Brethren , as if his Book could not be answered , but he had confuted us so , and so highly , unanswerably , and it s said by some that he was a whole year or more in bringing forth the said Book , whereby it is proved a Monster , and being brought forth its now imperfect and effects not the end propounded by its Author ; well upon these reasons at my first spare opportunity I have looked thorow his Book , and a dear friend of mine while I was absent hence in the work of the Lord elsewhere , begun the work for me , and hath answered a part of it , and it is published with no other end nor intent but onely to discover the Truth and to reprove falshood , and if it prove effectual to any as to inform them to a distinguishment between Truth and Errour , to discern the difference between the one and the other , and if any be edified in the Truth hereby , I have my end and desire , and if it shall work ( through the Spirit of God ) any conviction in the heart of our adversaries , and if Io. Wright shall see what he hath done , and repent , my end is fulfilled , but if not I am satisfied in what I have done , finding it to be my duty to send forth this Answer in pursuit of , and to detect J.W. his slanders and reproaches , errours and contradictions . And now I must commit the serious Reader to the grace of God , and to the Spirit of sound Judgement , that thereby he may read and weigh the one and the other , and that he may justly Judge by the rule of equity and Scripture proof , the difference of the controversie , and the Right , Truth , and Justice of the one , and the errour and falsity of the other , that he may be edified in this matter , for the end that he may follow Truth and Righteousnesse as it is discovered to him , and deny deceit and falshood where ever he shall meet with it ; And thus I shall leave the Reader to the serious view of the whole matter , as hereafter it followes . London the 9th . day of 7th . month 1661. Being a true friend to all that love Truth and Righteousnesse , and one that loves his Enemies . Edward Burroughs . A Preface . To the People called Anabaptists who are herein concerned , for the clearing of the Truth to them and others who scruple concerning it or the Light of it within . FRIENDS , WHat a sad thing is it , that you that profess the Name of Christ and to be his Flock , should be so unwise , and shew your selves so indiscreet and irrational , as to discover such a spirit of bitternesse and enmity ( especially in this day of Tryal both of you and us ) against such as are conscientious towards God in what he hath made known ( though in Judgement differing from you ) as here that spirit of enmity and malice is plainly discovered , in what hath proceeded from it in this Book , called , A Testimony for the Son of Man , &c. Subscribed by one Joseph Wright , who it appears , is accounted no mean man amongst you , for he accounts himself so nearly related to you , whom he calls The beloved Flock of Christ , ( who are the People called Anabaptists which he intends ) that he saith , he hath been appointed by many of you ( though unworthy ) for a defence of that Truth of the Gospel which you profess ; but if you were in the Truth of the Gospel , you would not have appointed such a Reviler and Insolent man for a defence of it , nor of you in it , as this Jos. Wright hath clearly discovered he is , as is clearly manifest in his Reviling , Reproaching and Slandering such as he calls Preachers of and to the Light within all men , whom his Book is contrived against ( he intending the suffering People called Quakers , who own and walk in the Light of Christ in them ) against which Light he hath also so greatly manisted his enmity , as if he could not contain his Malice , nor these many sad Aspersions and black revilings in his Book , which he hath produced from the Spirit of Antichrist and Blasphemy in him ; and though he hath appeared in his Pride , Presumption , and boasting Spirit , and as one appointed by you for an eminent defender of your way , as if he were some wonderful Champion and great Warriour , yet by the Light which he hath reproached is he discovered , and his weakness and folly made manifest , and he seen to be as feeble a Warriour and Child of Babylon as ever formed a Weapon , or lifted up a hand ( so publickly as he hath done ) against the Israel of God ; and if you were in Gods fear and true humility , and well considered your own state , and the state of such as are reviled by this your Defender , you would not own nor suffer such Babylonish Bratts , and dirty frothy stuff to proceed from amongst you , as this said Book of J. Wrights , considering these things . First , These are Suffering times , which both you and we are in , and how especially we are lyable to suffer for our Consciences , in our obeying that Testimony committed to us , not onely by mens reproaches , but also by Acts of cruelty and Persecution inflicted upon us , because we cannot deny the Lord in what we are perswaded he requires of us . 2. Such Revilings & Reproaches as J. Wright hath spread forth against us in the sight of our Persecutors , tend rather to add affl●ction to us , and to stir up our Persecutors in cruelty against us then otherwise ; Seeing that he hath so much accused and reviled us under the names of workers of Wickedness , forerunners of the man of Sin , Lyars , Blasphemers , Deluders , with many more reviling names , which falsly and unjustly he hath cast upon us , chiefly for Preaching up the Law & Light within men , which is the Light of Christ ; and in all his mater there is no just evidence against us , wherein he hath manifested himself as a partaker with the persecuting Generation who smite against us with the fist of wickednes , wch his work tends to encourage and strengthen , whilest he is smiting with the tongue like the wicked ( who shoot their Arrows against the Righteous ) and casting out his mire and dirt upon such as fear the Lord and walk in his Light. Thirdly , If you truly weighed your own state , and minded the rule of equity in your own Consciences , To do to others as you would be done by , you would not spread abroad such reviling Books and bundles of confusion as tend to cause others to suffer who are concientious towards God in what they know , knowing that in these times , if you be true to your own Principles , you are lyable to suffer also for your Consciences , by such as would assume to themselves a power to be Judges in matters of Conscience and Religion , though they dare not own themselves to be infallible in their Judgements notwithstanding . Fourthly , Considering how many have opened their Mouths , and published their Books and Pamphlets against us , and how little all their work hath effected or brought forth against us , and how we have in the testimony of a good Conscience been made to trample upon and discover our enemies works , which have so often been brought to nought ; this might have hindered this untimely and monstrous birth of J. VV's from coming abroad , which though he hath been a long time a bringing it forth , it must be turned back into the pit of Darkness and belly of Confusion , where it was conceived , though it appears he was so conceited in his work , and impudency and pride was so high in him , that he thought to prevail more then the rest of his Predecessors , who were of the Dragons Army , that have opposed the Truth before him , and that his work would have been more effectual then any besides , that hath been brought forth against us ; but herein is he and all that believe him and his work deceived , for both the weakness , confusion and falshood of his matter is easie to see by any unprejudiced persons who have but common sence and reason ; for he hath not onely , openly and falsly reviled us , whom the Lord hath delivered out of darkness into his Light and Life made manifest in us , but also he hath set himself to oppose and revile the Light of Christ in all men , and hath done what in him lies , to keep all people at a distance from Christ who is the true Light , as one not willing that Christ should have any room to dwell , either in his people or in any upon earth ; for this Jos. Wright who saith he hath been appointed by many of you for a defence &c. in his Epistle to you ( whom he calls the beloved flock of Jesus Christ ) he writes To all them that call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ , who sits at the right hand of God the Father in the Heavens , out of every man on earth , ( he saith ) and to such wisheth blessings , riches of grace , &c. wherein you that own this J. W. as a defence of Truth may note first how absolutely he hath set himself against Christ and the Truth , who herein hath gone about to limit or divide the Holy One from his People and members , ( as also further appears in his following matter ) and whose Doctrine tends to keep all out of the Faith of the true Church , and so in the reprobate state , contrary to the Apostles Doctrine , who saith , 2 Cor. 13.5 . Examine your selves whether ye be in the Faith , prove your own selves , know you not your own selves how that Jesus Christ is in you except ye be Reprobates ; so that he that knows not that Jesus Christ in him is out of the Faith , and so a reprobate , and much more he that preaches to keep all from knowing Jesus Christ in them while on earth . 2. And in that J. W. hath accounted Christ as he is at the right hand of God the Father , not to be in any man , but out of every man upon earth , he hath gone about to separate the Saints from the right hand of God , and so hath discovered himself both ignorant of Christ and of the Fathers right hand , and of the Kingdom of Heaven in the Saints ; for they that are come to Christ , and to know him in them , they are come to the Fathers right hand , and being Christs sheep none shall pluck them out of his Fathers hands . 3. Also about this thing hath J. W. confuted himself , for he hath acknowledged that blessings , glory , and praises are to be ascribed unto the onely wise God throughout all ages in the Churches , by his onely Son Jesus Christ , which plainly implies that then Jesus Christ must be in the Churches , or how should praises be given by him in the Churches to the onely wise God , or how should any glorifie or praise the onely wise God by Jesus Christ unlesse he be in them . Also after this J. W. hath thus told people of Jesus Christ , being out of every man on earth , he hath set himself to oppose the light of Christ ( in all men ) who is the true light that enlightens every man that cometh into the World. For in his Epistle , he tells of giving you a discription of one ( viz. errour and delusion ) that is most dangerous , and that which he hath chiefly written against , is Preaching the Law & Light within , and also accounts it a sad Principle of the Spirit of Antichrist , which now ( he saith ) runns about preaching up the Law or Light within ; as also he accounts this Doctrine , Gross Darkness , and so warns you against it : As also he saith , There hath risen up a most pernitious stratagem of Satan , whereby to delude the Children of God and men , it is a Teaching up the Light within all men , and he calls them that are in unity with that Principle , the Messengers of Antichrist , and that a Doctrine of Antichrist , and a device of Satan , and chargeth us with detestable blasphemies about it , &c. So that this Jospeh VVright , hath not onely shewed himself against Christs being in his People , but also he hath sought to keep men from his Light in them , as one that would shut up the Kingdom of God against men , that they might not enter into it ; and so he hath uttered forth his Rage and Blasphemy against the Light of Christ , and his Law in men , who is come a Light into the world , that whosoever believeth in him , may not perish but have eternal life , whose Law and Light it is that we Preach ; and Christ told the Pharisees , That the Kingdom of God was within them , Luke 17. Though they were wicked men , and sought to shut up the Kingdome of God against others , as this J. VV. hath done , in his foaming out his own shame , and uttering his rage and folly against the Light within , so that he might as well have reviled Christ , and said , that he Preached up a delusion , and a most pernitious stratagem of Satan , and a device of Satan , as so charge us for Preaching those things that are agreeable to the Doctrine of Christ ; And yet note that notwithstanding all this mans raging against this Doctrine of the light within all men , and his reviling it as delusion , and a most pernitious stratagem of Satan , and gross darknesse , he hath ( in page 165 ) distinguished the Light which is in us and all men , from the spirit of darkness , as accusing our speaking to be not from the Light within all men , nor from the light within our selves , but from the spirit of Darkness , &c. Which though he hath falsly accused our speaking , yet he hath hereby truly Implyed , that there is a light in us , and all men that is opposite or contra-to the spirit of Darkness ; and thus he bewrayes his own confusion and folly about the Light of Christ in all men , one while to rail so bitterly against it and the Doctrine of it , as the most pernicious delusion , stratagem of Satan , and gross darkness ; another while so intimately to grant to a light within all men ( which leads to speak truth ) as opposite to the spirit of Darkness ; As also in page 16 , 20.28 , 29.41 . This Joseph Wright saith , That the Light within , is no other then the work of the Law written in the hearts of the Gentiles , Rom. 2.14 , 15. And then he saith , It is evident that these Preachers , are Preachers of the Law , not of the Gospel , &c. See what gross darkness and confusion this man is in , who cannot distinguish between the Law of God within and the work of it , counting the Law or light within the work of the Law , like as if he had said , that the Law of God within is the work of the Law within , when as the work of the Law is that which is effected by the Law , as distinct from the Law it self , as much as a conviction or convincement is distinct from that which convinceth ; and we in owning the Law of God and its work within , do not deny the Gospel nor Christ as we are accused , no more then the Apostle did , when he went not about to make void the Law , but to establish it , as it was to be obeyed and fulfilled in the Faith of Christ , in whose hand is the Righteous Law , that manifests sin , and witnesseth against it , and this was the Covenant that God promised , to put his Laws in the mind , and write them in the hearts , Heb. ● . And said the Apostle , Rom. 2.13 , 14. For not the hearers of the Law are just before God , but the doers shall be justified ; and this he brings as his reason ; For when the Gentiles which have not the Law , do by nature the things contained in the law , these having not the law , are a law unto themselves , which shew the work of the law written in their hearts , &c. Herein he does not go about to destroy the Light or Law , or the work of it within , nor to render it a delusion , nor a sad Principle of Antichrist , nor a most pernitious stratagem of Satan ( as J. W. hath done ) but owns and vindicates it , and those that through Faith attained unto its righteousness , which the Jews by works out of the Faith did not . So let any Rational or Indifferent man Judge , whether this J. VV. hath not in effect accused the Apostle Paul , and the Prophet Jeremiah and others , with Preaching up a most dangerous delusion , a sad Principle of Antichrist , gross Darkness , and a most pernitious stratagem of Satan , &c. seeing that he hath thus reviled the Law and light within , and the work of it in the heart [ mentioned in Rom. 2 15. ] under these tearms ; and thus hath he manifested the Malice and Rancor of his Imbittered Spirit against the light and Law of Christ , and work of it in the Hearts , and so hath shewed himself an enemy to the Covenant of God , which was to Jews and Gentiles , Isa. 42.6 . Jer. 31. and so instead of giving a testimony against the Son of Perdition , he hath absolutely appeared in his work ; and after his so much Blasphemy against the light in all men , and our Preaching of it up , he is made to confess to the light in us and all men , as a differing thing from the spirit of Darkness , [ as in page 165. ] It should seem that when he writ that , he had forgotten his former revilings against the light in all men . Thus you who are called Anabaptists , may see the Bruitishnesse and Confusion of this unworthy man , who hath been appointed by many of you for a defence , as he saith ; and what credit or profit will this work be unto you , though he set up himself as a Teacher of the Churches of Christ ; and in the same Epistle that he writes to those he calls the Beloved Flock of Christ , that are in the Faith and Fellowship of him , according to his Glorious Gospel , when he has bidden them beware of hearkening to Preachers up of the light , He saith , But if you shall not be warned , I have as to this done my duty , your blood will lie upon your own heads . So you may here see what a Teacher of the beloved Flock of Christ ( that are in the Faith and Fellowship of him ) this Joseph Wright is , to lay the same words upon them that concerned the Jews that blasphemed , and opposed themselves against the Truth when Paul spoke to them , Acts 18.6 . As if the beloved Flock of Christ that are in the faith had not yet taken warning , but might be guilty of their own blood , as Joseph Wrights words do imply ; and yet this Flock is both in the Fellowship and Faith of Christ ; was there ever such absurdity and confusion as this ! And further , you may take notice , how that after Joseph Wright hath so much reviled and blasphemed the light within , he hath willingly manifested himself an open enemy to the light and the Doctrine of it , where , in his Epistle to the Reader , he hath laid down these words , viz. Although we have both preached and printed against this device of Satan , and have born witnesse very much against this delusion , yet so simple are some , both People and Teachers as to rank us with them , as co-partners and such as are espoused to that Doctrine which teacheth up the law or light within all men , &c. but the Lord knows it , and so shall you one day , if you shall not believe it now , that to entertain such a Doctrine would be to commit a Rape , not onely upon our very consciences , but also upon our meanest principles ; and it is no small grief to us to bear the least tittle of their Inventions , neither do we preach or practize any thing at all as from them , &c. These are Joseph Wrights very words , wherein you may see what presumption and Impudency hath appeared in him against the law & light and such as preach it , as one that is vexed and grieved that ever any should repute him as a co-partner with such as preach and own the the Law or Light within ; and so like a Hypocrite and man-pleaser , he hath appeared as one that would get in favour with those that are enemies to the Law and light within , by his exclaiming against it and them that own it ; though in page 165. he hath implicitely confessed to the light within all men as contrary to the spirit of Darkness , and thus all may see this mans wickedness and confusion ; And you who have owned him as your Teacher , or a defence of your way , may be ashamed of him , and it is a shame and disgrace to your profession , that ever such dirty stuff and absurdities should proceed from amongst you , as this J. VV. who hath been so much set up amongst you , hath uttered forth against the Truth and them that live in it ; who though he pretends to lay down our own Principles ( who Preach and own the light within ) as if they were sufficiently known to be ours both by our words of mouth and Books , yet many things hath he charged against us as ours , both as to Principles and matters of fact , which he neither mentions the Authors of , nor the Books of ours by which they were asserted ; and thus in the greatest part of his accusations and charges against us hath he dealt deceitfully , ( like him who is the Father of lyes and lyars , who when he speaketh a lye he speaketh of himself ) and not as a rational man , and in very many things he hath absolutely wronged our Principles and Practises , and charged as apparent falshoods upon us as ever was , as hereafter is made manifest to the shame of him that was the Authour of the said lying Book ( called A Testimony for the Son of man , &c. ) and the shame of all such false Spirits as own him in his work ; We see that God hath appeared in Judgement against you and your way , and a line of confusion is come over you , since that so many of you ( especially of your Leaders ) have set themselves in their envy and malice against us who are in the Power of Truth ; what do you think that spreading your railing and false Books against us will gain you favour from the prophane world , and be any means to rescue you from persecution , or suffering under the powers of the earth ? Do you think to save your selves by reviling the Innocent , as some of the Leaders in your way have gotten themselves out of Prison by swearing contrary to Christs Doctrine after they have been imprisoned for denying to swear , * ( when so many of our friends were in prisons for refusing to swear for Conscience sake to Christ ) And not onely so , but several of them who have long been reputed eminent in your way , have ( like Men-pleasers ) written to vindicate swearing and oaths , as treacherous men both to God , to their own Consciences , and to his Innocent and Conscientious people , such as you have reviled and bespattered with reproaches ( in the Book here answered ) who would be loath to be so treacherous to God and their own Consciences , as many in your way have been , whatever we suffer either from you or from the persecuters in the same envious spirit which is among you ; And yet this know , that we had not publisht this against any of you , had we not had that great occasion given us by this piece of wicked work which Joseph Wright ( your Defender ) hath brought forth , wherein we who preach the Light of Christ within , are not onely slandered and bespattered with his lyes and calumnies as men , but also the Truth of God which we are in and suffer for , is blasphemed , belyed , and perverted , even in the sight of our enemies ; in vindication whereof we were necessitated to give this forth , and to deal thus plainly with your Principles which are published by your pretended Defender , otherwise we could have been silent as from medling with you in this kind , for it is no pleasure to us to bestow so much labour upon such a heap of confusion and absurdities as I. VV. his work is , nor to upbraid you with your confusion and weaknesse in what you professe , especially since you are as in a suffering state , and like to suffer ( as we are ) if you be true to your Principles , and conscientious towards God in what you know or professe ; but you may see the urgent occasion given against us and the Truth , for what we do in this thing . And though I.VV. does not name the word Quakers by name , yet it is all one as if he had done it , whilst he so often in general words upbraids such as preach the Light within ; for we called Quakers are known to be the people he all along so peevishly smites against , seeing that we are known so generally to own and preach the Light within as the Saints of old did , and in that Light of Christ in us we see Light , and therein are as a City set upon a Hill which cannot be hid , and are in that Truth and Life which will out-live our opposers and persecuters , and do know that power manifest in us which out-shines all the dead and empty forms , professions and traditions of all who are out of the life and power of godlinesse , and in that hath the Lord given us strength and the spirit of understanding to see beyond , and to stand over our opposers , and the envy and subtilty of the Serpent in such as rise up in Judgment against us . Glory to our God for ever and ever . And now we come to some of the heads of Joseph Wrights matter in charge against such as preach the Law and Light within . CHAP. I. Concerning the Light within , and Christs coming in the flesh and dying for all men . J.W. his first charge is in these words , viz. The first thing I lay to thy charge whosoever thou art that preachest up the Light within men , requiring all People to mind the light which is within them , is this , That thou dost deny that Christ which dyed at Jerusalem , and denyest Jesus Christ come in the flesh , and thy spirit is the spirit of Antichrist &c. And the first proof for his charge is in these words , viz. 1. Because in all thy preaching , teaching , and declaring , thou never makes mention of Christs dying for the sins of the world , nor that he tasted death for every man , thou art altogether silent in this Doctrine of Christs dying for man in the body of his flesh , &c. And his second proof is in these words , viz. 2. Because as is thy word of mouth , even so is thy writings , for amongst them all and in them all there is not one line which teacheth that Christ did dye for the sins of the world , and freely laid down his life as a ransome for sinners , &c. Answer , As his charge is universal against all that preach up the light within , it is both false and slanderous , as also all his proofs for it , so that he might as well have said , that the light of Christ in all men , and the Doctrine of Christ which directs to it , doth deny Christ and his coming in the flesh , when as on the contrary , all who truly own and believe in the light of Christ-in them , by it they come to be led to the knowledge of Christ from whence it comes , and to the power of his death and the vertue of his life , which none can truly know but as they are led by the light of Christ within , which giveth the Knowledge of the Glory of God , and of those things that are freely given to us of God , and Christ said believe in the 〈…〉 t that you may be children of the light , John 12.36 . Did Christ herein deny himself or his coming in the flesh , as falsly J. VV. accuseth all that preach the light within ; and in that we are included in his proofs as never mentioning Christs tasting death for every man , either in our Preaching or writings ; in this he hath notoriously belyed us , as thousands may witness against him , who have heard us both Preach up and contend for the free Grace of God to all men , and thereby that Christ tasted death for every man , and dyed for all men , and gave him self a ransom for all to be testified of in due time , Heb. 2.9 . 1 Tim. 2.6 . 2 Cor. 5.14 . 1 John 2.2 . Which also as a testimony against J. W. in many of our Books , vindicate the free Grace of God in Christ to all men , and his dying for all , as in a Book Intituled , The Voice of Wisdom , by G. W. page 12. and at large in a Book Intituled , Rusticus ad Accademicos , by S. F. in both which Priest Danson is answered , and his pleading against Christs death for all men , and his free Grace to all confuted ; as also in a Book called , A brief Discovery , by G.W. as in many more Books of ours , the free Grace of God to all , and Christs dying for all men is declared . Also J. W. his third Proof for his said charge against all that Preach the light within , is as false as his former , where he laies down these words ( to wit ) Thou dost not gather men and women into Communion with Christ by Faith , teaching them to believe in Jesus Christ , &c. Which thing he himself , who hath openly opposed the light of Christ in all ( and counted the Doctrine of it a stratagem of Satan ) is guilty of , and not we that own the light ; for it is the light that brings into communion with God and his Son Jesus Christ , for they that say they have fellowship with him , and walk in Darkness , they lye and do not the truth , but they that walk in the Light , are in the true fellowship and faith , and know the Blood of Christ to cleanse them from all sin : Also J. VV. his charging us with gathering by works and not by Faith , in warning all people to look to the light within , and such as receive this Doctrine , with being as ignorant as heathens and absolute infidels ; in this hath he slandered us , and shewed himself to be an Infidel , who sees not the light within , 〈◊〉 owns it , for the Infidels were such as in whom the God of the World did blind their minds from seeing the light of the Glorious Gospel , which shineth in the heart , and giveth the knowledge of the Glory of God to them that believe in it , and so works without Faith we deny , but the works that are wrought in the Faith and in the light we own ; and though J. W. hath so much warned people from looking to the light within , as that which must bring them to reconciliation and justification , yet in pages 124. and 125. he hath contradicted his matter against the light within , for there he speaks of being set free and justified by performing the condition of the second Covenant , as Repentance , Faith , and Gospel Obedience which those that have sined may perform through the assistance of Gods Spirit , &c. as also he saith , so far forth as Persons come to be in Covenant with Christ , and are enabled by him to walk according to his direction , so far are these said to have Christ formed in them , that is , to be brought into a blessed destate of freedom from the guilt of sin , of freedom from the power and dominion of sin , of assurance of redemption from the first death , and of deliverance from the second , and so by Christ to be Intituled to Eternal Life , &c. Now how should those who have sinned perform the condition of the second Covenant , through the assistance of Gods Spirit , or come into the True Faith and Gospel obedience , and to know Christ formed in them , unless that Gods Spirit or Light be known or owned within ; and if those that have sinned , may come to this state of Faith and Obedience , and freedom from the guilt and power of sin by the Spirit of God , then a measure of this Spirit or light is given to all men without exception , seeing that the sinners themselves are not exempted from it , according to J. W. his own words ; and thus hath he grosly confounded himself in his own , while rayling against the Preaching up of the light within , and another while , confessing to the Spirit of God or light even in the wicked . J. W. his fourth Charge is thus , ( viz. ) Thou which Preachest that all men should mind the light which is within them , dost deny the Christ of God which dyed at Jerusalem , because thou hast said to me , when I have made as large a confession of Christ as I now have done , that I am ignorant of Christ , &c. Answer , What a silly Reason is this , against those that Preach that all should mind the light within ; as if he had said , that because he has made a large confession of Christ , therefore he is not ignorant of him ; when as the Devil who favours not the things of God , hath been made to confesse Christ , and many do confess Christ in words , as largly as J. W. and yet are ignorant of him , and of the Power of his death and Sufferings , as J. W. is whilest he shews him self an enemy to the Light of Christ which we own ; and we do not deny either the coming of Christ , or his suffering in the flesh , as we are falsly accused by this reviler ; neither do we deny Christs reconciling of the world , nor teach any thing contrary to that of Rom. 5.10 . 2 Cor. 5.19 . as J. W. hath implicitely accused us ; for we know and Preach reconciliation through Christs death , and Salvation through his life , whose life is the light of men , and this is not any establishing of our own Righteousnesse , as falsly we are accused ; neither are we strangers unto the Doctrine of Justification by the Grace of God through the redemption that is in Christ , whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood ; but how are any justified by the Grace of God , whilst they deny the light within ; for is not the light of Christ within the free gift of his Grace , which hath appeared to all men , and which by his Righteousness hath come upon all men , Rom. 5.18 . Titus 2.11 . Which Righteousness is received where the light of Christ within is obeyed , and he thereby made known to be a propitiation through Faith in his blood ; and we who are come to own this in the true Faith , are come to self-denyal , and to deny self-righteousness , contrary to J. W. his false accusations against us who Preach the light within . Who also saith in his twelfth page , But self must be denyed and self righteousness , which is of the Law , yea , when men have done all whatsoever they are commanded , they are to say , with humble hearts they have done but what was their duty , &c. Answer , What an Ignoramus is this man , who puts no difference betwixt Self-righteousness which is to be denyed , and the doing whatsoever we are commanded , which is our duty , as if he had said , in denying self-righteousness , you must deny your duty , or that self-righteousness is mens duty , when as that which brings men to do their duty to God in obeying his commands is of God ; and though man as in the Servants state may abase and humble himself , yet that Principle of Faith which brings him to do his duty , is to be esteemed of , and as in that he lives , he comes to be reckoned among the Faithful and profitable Servants of Christ , who become his Friends through faithfulnesse , and Christ said unto such , I call you no more Servants but Friends , and this is further then the unprofitable Servants state . And whereas J. W. chargeth such as strangers to justification by Faith in the Blood of Christ , who say , That so far as the creature is brought out of the filth of this world , and to leave sin , so far onely is he justified before God , &c. As also he tells of a poor sinner standing justified before God , and of God justifying the creature , while it is in its sins , in its blood , page 14. Answer , Herein hath J. W. shewed himself ignorant of justification before God by Faith , and of the state of justification , for the Creature is not justified as a sinner , nor in that state wherein it is in the filth of the World , and in its blood , but as it is made just in Christ , being justified from sin and ungodliness , and not in sin , and justified from those things from which it could not be justified by the Law of Moses , and it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God , but the doers that shall be justified ; So this justification is not without sanctificaon , as deceivers do falsly imagine a justification of men , when they are in the filth of the world , contrary to the Apostles Doctrine , who said to the Corinthians , But ye are washed , but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus , and by the Spirit of our God , 1 Cor. 6.11 . So that he did not deny following the light or Spirit of God within , as in reference to mans justification , nor Preach up a justification of men when they are in the filth of the world , and in their Blood as J. W. hath done , who notwithstanding , hath in page 124. owned a justification by performing the condition of the second Covenant , through the assistance of Gods Spirit , and that so far forth as persons are in Covenant with Christ , and are enabled to walk according to his direction , so far are they in a blessed estate , as in page the 125. and is not that blessed estate and freedom from the guilt , power and dominion of sin , and assurance of eternal Life and a justified estate ( supposeth J.W. ) How hath he confounded him self in these things who hath also granted that they that believe are taught to be holy , as he which hath called them is holy , and to be holy in all manner of conversation , because it is written , be ye holy , for I the Lord your God am holy , 1 Pet. 1 14 , 15. Lev. 19.2 . How then are any justified while they are in the filth of the world in their sins and in their blood ? Thus all may see what gross absurdity , confusion and ignorance this J. W. is in ; who also saith , The humble do see themselves in a lost and undone estate by reason of sin , which they and all the world are guilty of finding themselves under the curse of the law , &c. What falshood and confusion is this , when as those that are truly humble are taught of the Lord , and freed from the guilt of sin , according to this mans own confession , and the humble and contrite heart is a Sacrifice to God , and not to be reckoned under the guilt of the worlds sin , nor under the curse of the Law , as this J. W. hath falsely accused the humble , who are of contrite Spirits whom God regards . Also J. W. hath accused such as followers of the Romish Synagogue , and as being Messengers of Satan , who Preach up the light within , saying , that they lead all such as follow them from Christ to themselves , setting up themselves , &c. As also he saith , They set up that which is indeed the darkness of this world , the traditions of men , the Doctrines of the Romish Harlot , page 21. Answ. What an absurd and foolish slanderer is this man , who distinguisheth not between the Light within men , and the men themselves , when as they who truly preach the Light of Christ within do not lead them from Christ to themselves , but to that which is not of themselves , that they may come to deny themselves , as he hath taught , and this we own , which is no setting up of strife , nor of the darknesse of this world , neither is it any Tradition of men , or Doctrine of the Romish Harlot , as impudently and falsly J. W. hath charged against such as preach the Light within , and so hath manifested himself to be one of them who put Light for darkness , and darknesse for Light , unto whom Woes belongs , Isa. 5 , 20. and the more he strives against the Light the more he confounds and splits himself against the Rock , who having confessed that what we preach is the work of the Law in the hearts , Rom. 2.15 . and as much as that there is a light in us and all men , contrary to the spirit of darknesse , and now chargeth us with setting up the darknesse of this world , and the Doctrines of the Romish Harlot ; what grosse darknesse , confusion and blasphemies hath he here uttered forth ; if J. W. his heart were not filled with envy and malice , he would not shew himself thus impudent in his folly and confusion . CHAP. II. Concerning the nature and state of Christ , and the soul of man , and the Saints partaking of the divine nature ; and how J.W. hath confounded himself , and shewed his blindnesse about these things . JOseph Wright's words , viz. Thou art a Deceiver , for thou sayest not that the flesh and bones , humane soul and spirit of that man which was born of Mary the Virgin , is the Christ ; but thou making no mention of the humane nature , that which thou callest the Christ is the seed , spirit , or light in that man that was born of Mary , p. 23 , 24. &c. Answer , That which we own to be the Christ is the same that the Apostles and true Believers owned ; to wit , That Jesus Christ our Lord was made of the seed of Abraham and David according to the flesh , and declared to be the Son of God with Power , according to the spirit of holinesse by the Resurrection from the dead , and the seed which the promise is to is Christ , and the last Adam was made a quickning Spirit , and the Lord is that Spirit , set Rom● 1.3 , 4. ● Cor. 15.45 . Gal. 3.16 . 2 Cor. 3.17 . Was the Apostle Paul a deceiver for speaking these things ( supposeth J. W ? ) which are the same things we speak , though he count us D●ceivers , and is not this seed or spirit which is Christ , in them that believe ? Yet J. W. hath confessed That it ought not to be denyed , that the Spirit of Holinesse in that person which was born of the Virgin Mary is the Son of God by eternal Generation , &c. Why then hath he judged any to be deceivers for confessing that spirit ( or seed ) to be Christ ; and we confesse Jesus Christ to be come in the flesh , is it then improper to say the seed which is Christ came in the flesh , and was in that person that was born of the Virgin Mary , seeing that as he was so manifest in the flesh he was the true Christ , without any of J. W. his blind distinctions , who after he hath granted that the spirit of holinesse in that person is the Son of God by eternal Generation , he saith , that the humane nature also of that person is the Son of God by temporal Generation , and yet there are not two Christs but one , &c. Did you ever hear such Doctrines as these , which are all one as if he had said that the Spirit of Holinesse and humane nature are both one , or that Divine and humane are both one , when as they are two distinct things , that which is humane is of the earth , as the first man was , as Humane is of Homo , which comes of Humus the ground , of which man was made , ( as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i.e. Humanus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Terra , aut Humus , ) but that which is Divine is from above , as Christ is , who is Lord from Heaven ; Now though this Christ in time took part of that which the Children had , viz. flesh and bloud , Heb. 2.14 . yet we never read that Humane nature is Christ , nor that the flesh and bloud is Christ by temporal generation ; for to assert that is all one as to say that Christ ( who is Lord from Heaven ) took upon him Christ in time , ( but Christ in the flesh we read of and own ) neither do we read in the Scripture that the soul of Christ is a humane soul , for is not his Soul divine and immortal ? What , is humane and immortal both one ? Or hath he two Souls in one body or person of such differing kinds ? And if the humane nature be Christ , and all mankind be of the same substance with Christ according to that nature , as J. W. saith , page 116. Then it followes that the humane or earthly nature of all mankind is Christ , and then they that would know Christ and be saved by him , they must own their earthly ( or humane ) nature to be Christ or the Son of God , and look to be saved by it ; did ever the Apostles preach such a Christ as this ? they that cannot see J. W. his ignorance of Christ his nature , soul and spirit , they are in grosse darknesse . Now though we deny J. W. his unscripture-like ( and blind ) distinction , from which it follows that either there must be two Christs in one person , or else that humane and divine are both one , which no ingenuous person will own ; and though we deny his vainly imagining a humane or carnal Christ like himself , yet still we own the true Christ according to the Scriptures , who according to the flesh was of the seed of Abraham and David , and according to the Spirit is declared to be the Son of God with power by the Resurrection , and that he was the word which was made flesh and dwelt in the Disciples , John 1.14 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and his death as concerning the flesh , and his Resurrection and Ascension according to the Scriptures of Truth we own , and that he is Glorified with the Father in the same glory which he had with the Father before the world began , and as in that state his nature , body , soul , and spirit are spiritual , divine , and immortal , at the right hand of power , for as he had power to appear in the transfiguration , and after his Resurrection to appear in divers forms , and amongst the Disciples when the doors were shut , John 20. so now he being glorified with the Father in that his transcendent glory , he is in a further state then in the dayes of the flesh , when his body was subject to hunger , cold , or other sufferings upon earth ; and he is not to be supposed to be like unto corruptible man , or a Christ of the same substance with sinful polluted men , though he be the same Christ still , the same to day yesterday and for ever , not divided , and is the same that descended into the lower parts of the earth , who is ascended far above all Heavens , that he might fill all things with his fulnesse , who hath said , that no man hath ascended up to Heaven but the Son of man which came down from Heaven , which is in Heaven , John 3.13 . Eph. 4.9 , 10. Psal. 68.18 . J. VV. saith p. 27. what do they lesse then say I am Christ , which say I speak to the Light in thy Conscience which shall eternally witnesse me ; what mean they by this word me , which they say is eternally to be witnessed , is there any thing that is eternally to be witnessed but the eternal God and his Son Jesus Christ ? Answ. If J W. did not know what we mean , that is , to be eternally witnessed ( as appears he did not ) then he should not have judged us with directing people unto our selves ( or with saying we are Christ ) therein he hath judged us falsly , for that which is eternally to be witnessed is Christ who speaketh in us , Mat. 10.20 . 2 Cor. 2.17 . & 4 , 5. & 13.3 . who may speak in his own name , and such as would stop his mouth from speaking where he is manifest , are of Antichrist . And also J. W. his accusing us with not confessing that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh , and with onely saying he is come into our flesh , &c. These are as false as the rest of his slanders against us , and therein hath he contradicted himself , for before he accused us for saying that Christ is the seed , spirit , or Light in that man which was born of Mary ; what then , do not we confesse Christ come in the flesh , and must we deny Christ come in our flesh ? Then seeing that Christ come in the flesh is a general word not onely including that body which he took upon him in the womb of the Virgin , but also the flesh of all his people , who are members of his body , of his flesh , and of his bone , Eph. 5.13 . And the following of the Light within thereby to attain unto Righteousnesse , doth not at all render the death of Christ in vain , as J. W. imagines , for the Saints in walking in the Light knew the bloud of Christ to cleanse them from all sin , and purified their souls in obeying the Truth through the Spirit , 1 Pet. 1.22 . 1 John 1.7 . And this was not any making of the death of Christ in vain , but by the Light or Spirit of Christ a witnessing the end fulfilled in them , for which Christ suffered , that they might live unto him ; and how should any hear Christ in all things , Deut. 18.15 Acts 3.22 . ( as J. W. saith ) unlesse they follow the Light of Christ within , for wch preaching J. W. in his rage hath called us men of Belial , p. 30. so what grosse ignorance and confusion is he in ! And as for Christs saying if the Light that is in thee be darknesse , how great is that darknesse , Mat. 6.23 . This hath relation to that state where the eye is evil , where that is supposed to be the Light which is darknesse , upon which their supposition ( who were in that state ) Christ spake these words , for the Light of Christ is the same that ever it was , and in it self is unchangeable , though in some it shine in darknesse , and the darknesse comprehends it not . And as for those that spoke not according to the word of whom it s said , it is because there is no Light in them , Isa. 8.20 . which J. W. also alledges , They were such as walked in darknesse , unto whom there was no morning , as the Hebrew word signifies , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for many speak contrary to the word , that are reproved by the Light of Christ in them as J. W. may see his own guilt thereby if he be not past feeling ) and yet such are come short of the morning , for the Light shineth in darknesse among such as are not led by it to the morning , nor receive Instruction from it . And note further , that though this J. W. hath so much set himself against the Light within , and does not own it to be in all , yet in page 108 he hath confessed That the old ungodly World that were destroyed by the flood of waters would not be turned by the strivings of Gods Spirit , but refused that grace that was so affectionately tendred to them , &c. Wherein to his own confusion he is made to confesse to the Truth ; for then if the old ungodly world had the Spirit of God so striving with them , and the Grace of God so tendred to them , what ignorant men are they that deny the extent of the Grace of God , or the Light of Christ now to the world , and will not own it to be in the ungodly , nor that they should look to or follow it in them now ? What , was not the old World as wicked as the World now is , or is the Grace of God or his Mercy now , lesse then it was to the old World ? J. W. in pag 110. saith of Christ , It is he that hath two distinct natures in one intire person , no person else hath the like in him , in him onely dwelleth the fulness of the God-head bodily , in no man besides him dwelleth the god-head in any measure bodily , &c. Answ. Yes , the Saints were made partakers of the Divine Nature also , and such received of the fulnesse of God in Christ grace for grace , and God hath promised to dwell and walk in his people , John 1.16 . 1 Cor. 3.16 . 2 Cor. 6.16 . and can that state be attained by any , and nothing of the Divine Nature be in them ? Is God in his People and his Nature divided ? What grosse confusion is this Baptist in , and notwithstanding his denyal of the Divine Nature being in Believers ; In pag. 111. he saith , that all men in respect of their substance of spirit soul and body , and Christ in respect of his humane nature ( as he calls it ) are one , yet in respect of his God-head are not one , &c. what then , hath not the soul of the Righteous any of the Divine Nature in it ? How then hath it its immortality ? Is any thing immortal that hath not of the Divine Life or nature in it ? And are not they that are joyned to God one spirit ? What blindnesse is this J. VV. in , who also after he hath denyed that nature which is in Christ to be in any man else , ( viz. the Divine nature ) he hath in pages 113. and 146. accounted that the Divine Nature is the spirit of holinesse ( or that they are one ) so that in his denying the Divine Nature to be in any except Christ , he hath denyed the spirit of holinesse to be in the believers , from which it followes that none of the believers are Christs , and that Christ hath no flock , for he that hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of his , so all that reads this may see how this Baptist hath gone about to shut Christ his Nature and Light or Spirit out of all people , ( not onely unbelievers but Saints ) and how his Doctrine tends to keep all people in darknesse from Christ his Divine Nature and Spirit . And so this Baptist in telling of two distinct natures in the person of Christ , ( viz. the spirit of holinesse or Divine Nature , and the humane nature ) and calling each of these natures the Son of God ( though he own them to be two distinct natures ) as in pages 24. & 10. & 111. & 113. what he hath said herein is all one as if he had said that there are two Christs in one person , when as Christ is but one , and is the same yesterday to day and for ever , glorified with the Fa●her in the same glory which he had before the world began , and this Christ is in the Saints , and the same spirit of holinesse which raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in them , so that the Divine Nature is not excluded out of them , as this Baptist hath often implyed ; and no where do we read in Scripture that that nature of Christ which hath been free from hunger and cold ever since his Resurrection , is a humane ( or earthly ) nature according to this mans words , who hath shewed himself both ignorant of Christ and his nature , ( as now glorified with the Father ) which is of an immortal or spiritual being , or kind . Joseph Wright saith , p. 116. That the flesh , soul and spirit of all men , and the flesh , soul and humane Spirit of Christ is of one substance . Answ. Oh grosse darknesse and errour , to imagine that the flesh and soul and spirit both of all men and Christ are of one substance ; what then , is the soul and spirit made up of flesh ? If they be of one substance then must the soul dye with the body , and then where is its immortality ? And why is the Spirit a distinct thing from the flesh , and a body without the Spirit dead ? And further , how are all mankind of the same substance with Christ , when as the substance of Christ never sinned , but thou J. W. sayest , ye are unclean because ye are propagated in unclean lust , what are you of the same substance with Christ or of his nature , ( who is in a glorified state in immortality and eternal glory ) when you are so propagated and are unclean ; thou art yet unclean and exceeding sottish , or else thou wouldst have been ashamed to utter such confusion and folly as thou hast done ; as also after thou hast asserted that all mankind are of the same substance with Christ , thou hast told us , p. 121. That man became like the Devil by sin ( as thou sayest the Hebrew word may be rendred ) which is as much as if thou hadst said , that that which is like the Devil is of the same substance with Christ , shewing thy self wholly ignorant of Christ , and of his substance , and flesh , which is not suffered to see corruption . And further , in pages 128 , 131 , 132 , 134 , & 58 , 59. it may be observed how thou puttest afar off the state of the Church , or believers being conformed to the Image of the Son of God , that he might be the first-born among many Brethren , ( as in Rom. 8.29 . ) which thou puttest afar off as to be attained , but at the Resurrection of their bodies from the graves , ( which thou tells of ) and then ( thou blindly sayest ) Christ will give himself unto it , ( viz. unto his Church ) and make it like glorious with his own glorified humane nature , and then the Church shall resemble her head , &c. Herein hast thou perverted both that Scripture of Rom. 8.29 , 30. and that of Eph. 5.25 , 26.27 . for the Apostle does not put that cleansed and glorious state of the Church ( wherein they were made conformable to the Image of Christ ) afar off till after death as thou hast done , for the Saints were come unto the Church of the first-born , and knew Christ born in them , as he is the first-born in many Brethren , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and who he justified , them also he glorified , Rom. 8.30 . and Christ gave himself for his Church , that he might sanctifie and cleanse it , and present it to himself not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing , but that it should be holy and without blemish , Eph. 5. Now doth not the Church resemble her head when she is brought into that state of purity for which Christ gave himself , which refers to the time past ; it s not said there , that he will give himself ( as in the future Tense ) so to cleanse his Church at the Resurrection of the bodies out of the graves , as thy words imply , who also to prove that the Believers partaking of the Divine Nature in this Life is but in part , bringest Rom. 7.25 . With my mind I serve the Law of God , but with my flesh the Law of sin , wherein thou hast implyed that the Apostle was not freed from serving the Law of sin while he was in this Life , ( what a sad life wouldst thou make Paul to live ? ) and so like the deceivers and blind guides hast put freedom from sin afar off till after death , that the bodies shall be raised out of the graves , and when that shall be thou knowest not , when as the Apostle passed thorow the warfare and attained to the victory over sin , and the Law of the spirit of life in Christ did make him free from the law of sin and death , which sometime had ruled in his members , and he could say before his decease , I have fought the good fight , &c. though several times he condescended to several states or conditions below his own , as he did to the Romans , and others , and became as weak to the weak , and as one under the Law to them that were under the Law , &c. And thou sayest , p. 139. That humane nature by personal conjunction with the Divine Nature , being become so spiritual , that it may be truly said The last Adam , that is , the created substance in Christs person is now made into a quickening spirit , &c To which we say , how then is all mankind of the same substance with Christ ( as thou said before ) what are they all quickening Spirits , or is the Humane Nature of all man-kind a quickening Spirit ? Canst thou not distinguish betwixt that which is Humane ( or from the earth ) and a quickening Spirit ? What gross absurdity hast thou herein implyed ? And what a vast difference wouldest thou make betwixt Christ and his Nature ( now when he is in a glorified states further then in the dayes of his flesh ) as if he were become a quickening Spirit which is divine , but there is a nature in him that is Humane , so the Nature of the quickening spirit is of the earth ( according to thy words ) as the first Adam was , and so thou canst not distiguish betwixt the first Adam and the second , though the first Adam and his Humane Nature is of the Earth , but the second and his Nature and Image is Divine and Heavenly according to himself who is Lord from Heaven , whose state is glorified , spiritual and immortal , wherein that which was mortal , which in time he took upon him , is swallowed up of life and immortality , and he ( as Glorified with the Father before the world began ) made higher then the Angels , though they be ministring Spirits . And whereas thou J. W. countest it Blasphemous , and of Antichrist , to think that any part of man , Spirit , Soul or Body is of the Divine , Eternal and uncreated Substance , &c. To that we say , Is not that wherein the Soul hath its immortality of the Eternal Life or Substance ? else whence had the Soul its Life and Immortality , and what is it in it self ? For shall not the Soul if saved from the power of sin , be eternally in the feeling and enjoyment of the Love of God ? And if not so saved , shall it not Eternally be under a sence of his Anger ? And was not man made in the Image of God , and had the Breath of Life from God in him whereby his Soul lived ? Was not that Image and Life Immortal ? And whereas thou seemest to admit of a Perfection that Believers may attain unto , and yet sayes , that the perfection of God and of the Divine Nature of Christ , is of a different Nature from the perfection of man , &c. This is as blind a business as thy former , denying the Divine Nature to be in any but Christ ; for there is no true perfection of Holiness that the believers attain to , but what they have in God and Christ according to his Divine Nature in which they pertake of in him , who hath exhorted the Saints to be Perfect , as their Heavenly Father is Perfect , that they might be Holy in all manner of conversation ; so that thy sinful Doctrines ( which are for sin the tearm of Life ) do tend to make the commands and Work of Christ of none effect . CHAP. III. Concerning the Resurrection , and J. W. his silly reasoning and vain conceits about it . ANd as concerning the Resurrection from the dead , we do not say that the Resurrection is past with us , as J. W. in page 63. doth falsly accuse us , for we are in him who is the Resurrection & the Life , and by whom comes the Resurrection from the dead , John 11.25 . 1 Cor. 15.21 . and we are against those that in saying the Resurrection is past , have gone about to destroy ( or do overthrow ) the Faith of some , 2 Tim. 2.18 . for through Faith many are in the way to attain to the Resurrection of the just ; and so according to the Scriptures we do own a Resurrection both of the just and unjust , and that some shall come forth to the Resurrection of Life , wch they that abide in the Faith until death shall attain to , and others to the Resurrection of Condemnation which is their portion who believe not in Christ , who is the Resurrection and the Life , wherein the Righteous shall shine as the Stars for ever and ever , but the wicked shall rise to shame and contempt , Dan. 12.2 , 3. And why does J. W. count it absurd , as in pages 54 , 55. that the Seed of God should be sown in one condition and raised in another ; seeing the Apostles words are plain to that effect , for that which thou sowest is not quickened except it die ; and doth not that Seed suffer in man by corruption , before it be raised in incorruption , and is it not the Seed of God that is sown in weakness and raised in Power , and every Seed shall have its own Body , and what is it God gives a Body to as it pleaseth him but the Seed ? And what Seed is that is raised in incorruption , Glory and Power , but the Seed of God ? before which state of the Seed be attained to , the Seed is known in suffering in death and in corruption , though in it self it be incorruptible ; for it could not be said it shall be quickened , unless after it be sown it dye ; and in respect of its being sown , in weakness and dying , ( as to them in whom it is sown , who are not redeemed into the state of the second Adam ) it s said to be sown a Natural Body , as also there is a Natural Seed , or Seed of Abraham according to the flesh , that this Seed of God takes hold on or takes upon it ; but in respect of its being raised in Power and Glory , it is Spiritual and Immortal , as being beyond that state in which it is sown in weakness , which states none comes truly to know , but as they come into death with the Seed , and to be raised up by the Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead , which spirit where it dwells doth quicken the mortal bodies , and doth bring into the likeness of Christs Glorious Body , and as many as are dead with Christ shall live and appear with him in Glory , and witness the Body of their lowness made like unto his Glorious Body , whose they are , and such who come to the Resurrection of the Just , and to see the mortal Body which was dead because of sin , quickened by the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them , shall come to witness that of Hosea 13 , 14. fulfilled , for they shall come to be ransomed from the Power of the Grave , and redeemed from death , as the Seed comes to live and reign , which cannot be holden of death nor kept in the Grave , but is the destruction of the Grave ; and this the Prophet witnessed when he was delivered from the power of the Grave , and his soul brought out of the Pit , by the sides whereof the Graves were set ; And why saith J. W. in page 60. as that arising which Christ through the Faith of the Operation of God , is not the Resurrection from the dead , nor the state of perfection which the Faithful unto death shall obtain ? &c. What do not they that rise with Christ rise from the dead ? And was not that the Resurrection from the dead that Saint Paul desired to attain to ? Phil. 3.11 . Are not all men in sin dead ? And do not they that rise with Christ , rise out of sin , seeing the Saints that had been dead in trespasses and sins , when they were quickened and raised in Christ , they were come to live in him with whom they shall live , who first knew what it was to die with him , or to be baptized into his death , for the dead in Christ shall rise first ; and is not that a state of perfection , where there is a Resurrection in Christ , from sin and the death which came in by it ? For is it not sin that caused the imperfection ? And that the Resurrection from the dead , is a raising of man from the dead in every part wherein he is dead by reason of sin , and to live in every part wherein he lived before he sinned , ( to wit ) to be alive in Spirit , Soul and Body , as in page 66. Who denies that ? For because of sin , death hath come over man in every part , both over spirit , soul and body ; so that where man is raised out of sin by Christ , who is the Resurrection and the Life , his Spirit is quickened that it can rejoyce in God , and his soul is raised up out of death , that it can magnifie him who is the Saviour ; and if Christ be in you , the Body i● dead because of sin , and the same spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead shall quicken the mortal Body , and the Creature it self thereby comes to be delivered into the Glorious liberty of the Sons of God ; so that the Resurrection of the whole man ( and of every man in his own order , 1 Cor. 15 23 ) over whom death and the Grave had dominion we own , and do not take a part of it for the whole , as falsly J. W. accuseth us ; But whereas J. VV. imagineth that the Redemption of the Body spoken of in Rom. 8. Which the Saints groaned travelled and waited for is not to be enjoyed till the Natural and visible bodies of men shall be raised out of the Graves , as in page 65. and 53. and 55. This is like the rest of his vain Imaginations and foolish dreams about the Resurrection and other things , for this would suppose that that Redemption of the Body from the bondage of Corruption [ which Saint Paul and other Saints so many hundred years agoe did travel , and wait , and hope for in their suffering state ] is not yet attained , which would render their Faith , Hope and Travel ineffectual ; and what then was that bondage of corruption , and that suffering under which the body suffered , and from which they waited for redemption , is it some bondage or suffering that the Saints so long deceased both were in their dayes ( and are yet ) in suffering under , if they be not yet attained to the redemption of the body , which so long since they travelled for , as this J. VV. ignorantly seems to imply , which his reason is like his saying , that God is declared to be the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob , because their bodies which are dead shall live again , when as he was their God , because they lived with him and were in him , and were in the bosom of the Father , who is not the God of the dead but of the living ; And as for that of Job 19.25 , 26 , 27. Which he mentions , where Job knew his Redeemer living , and that he should stand upon the Earth , and that in his flesh he should see God ; whom ( said he ) I shall see for my self and mine eyes shall behold , &c. After this Job knew his hope herein fulfilled , when he said to the Lord , Chap. 42. I have heard of thee by the Hearing of the Ear , but now mine eyes seeth thee . Now it is not to be supposed that Job did either see or expect to see God with bodily or carnal eyes , for who so imagines , they must suppose God to be visible like themselves , and not a Spirit , nor an immortal invisible being , who is to be seen spiritually and not carnally , who is in that immortality and Glory with no man ( as mortal ) can approach to or behold with that which is mortal : and what silly reasoning is it for J W. from that of Rev. 20.4 . to Query What part of man is it which is capable of being beheaded ; Is it not the Body ? Therefore the bodies lived , &c. When as that of Rev. 20.4 . speaketh onely of the Souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus , and the Word of God ; so that his reason is as if he had said , that because the souls of them that were beheaded lived , therefore their Bodies when they were beheaded lived , when as the souls and that which was beheaded are spoken of as distinct things ( viz. ) the Souls of them that were beheaded ; so that where the Scripture mentions the souls , as including the whole man or men , as Gen. 46.27 . which J. W. cites , this will not prove his absurdity ; and the like reason for his dream about the bodies hath he in page 70. from Luke 16. of the rich mans being tormented , which torment ( he saith ) is to be vnderstood to be upon the body of the rich man , from his desire that Lazarus might be sent to dip his finger in Water , to cool his tongue , a part of his Body , &c. Wherein I.W. sheweth himself both ignorant of Parables and mysteries , wherein he hath implyed , as if the rich mans body was then in hell when he was so tormented ; when as Christ saith , The rich man dyed and was buried , and speaks that of Lazarus & the rich man , as in the time past ; & then where was that Hell out of which he that was in it could see Lazarus in Abrahams bosom , betwixt Abraham and which Hell there was a great gulf fixed ? And what was it in the rich man then that let him see Abraham and Lazarus a far off ? Did he see them when he was in Hell with bodily eyes , yea or nay ? And as for I. W. his Comparison , page 55. of the Wheat arising out of that very Seed , and that very Kernel which was sown , even so ( saith he ) shall it be in the Resurrection from the Dead , the Natural and Visible bodies of those that believe in Christ , although they shall not be raised as they are sown , yet they shall be raised out of the Grave , &c. This is contrary to Iob. 7.9 . and 1 Cor. 15.37 . and this his Comparison doth not paralel his matter intended and asserted , unless he can prove that the Bodies of all that are deceased or die , are so reserved , and their substance remain in the Earth or Sea where they die , as the Wheat that is sown which brings forth its own Body , which absurdity no rational man will believe , though herein he hath contradicted himself , for the same grain of Wheat that is sown , is not that Body or Ear that grows forth ; and said the Apostle , 1 Cor. 15.37 . Thou sowest not that Body that shall be , though every Seed shall have its own Body , which who knows the mystery of the differing Seeds , they come to know the Body of each , which are of the Nature of those Seeds they belong to ; and there is also a Natural Body and a Spiritual Body which are distinct things , as there is a first man and a second man which differ ; and so there are Terrestial Bodies , and Bodies Caelestial which are discerned , and the state of each distinguished , where that Body which is Spiritual , which differs from that which was Natural is discerned and seen ; and this is hid from all blind and empty Professors , who are in their Dreams and Imaginations , imagining that they shall see God with their Carnal or Visible Eyes , and by such imaginations have in the long night of Apostacy blinded the simple , and begot them into a blind Faith and Hope , which stands not in the Power of God , nor the Seed which is Christ which is risen to destroy , and to root out the evil Seed which has been sown in the night by the envious one , whose work they are in that oppose the good ; and where proves J. W. by Scripture that man that was made of the dust of the Earth , had not in his Body dyed or returned to dust , had he not transgressed , as in page 61. ? Must not all things return to their Center ? For shall not the Bodies of the Just return to dust , who are redeemed from Transgression and washed from sin by the Blood of Christ ? What was that death that Adam dyed in the day he eat of the forbidden fruit , seeing that his Body lived hundreds of years after that ? CHAP. IV. Concerning what we appeal to in men , and the Subject of our Exhortations : And J. W. his gross Lyes and Slanders against us about these things . WHereas J. W. hath accused us of Fearful Blasphemy , for speaking to the Light in the Conscience , or to the Seed of God in men ; Which ( saith he ) supposeth , that that which they call Christ hath done Iniquity , else why do they say Repent repent , with exhortations to depart from sin , &c. So that he saith , They reprove Christ , exhort Christ , councel Christ , yea they say they speak to that of God in the Conscience which shall eternally witness ; so that they Teach God , reprove God , counsel God , Oh horrible blasphemy , thus far J. W. page 98. &c. Answer , What abominable falshoods & gross mistakes are these against us ; for as we are manifest in mens consciences in the sight of God , so we appeal or speak to his Light in them as our witnesse , which beareth Testimony to what we say , and do not make that Light the subject of our exhortations or reproofs , but the Creature that is to be turned to Christ and his light within , neither is the Light ever reproveable or guilty of any evil , but that which transgresseth it ; And this light we appeal to as our witness for the Truth , even in the wicked who rebel against it , and we are a good favor to God even in them that perish . And so his charge against us , as not Preaching to the Creature man , when we appeal to the Witness of God in men , is exceeding false and foolish ; For cannot men appeal to any thing as a witness for Truth and true Judgement , but they must make it the Subject which they reprove or appeal against ? What gross ignorance is this J.W. is in ! And is not the Truth where ever it is Preached manifest to that of God in mens Consciences , and in our speaking or appealing to the light of Christ in mens Consciences , we do not suppose that Christ is saved by our Preaching , nor that he is in a fallen condition , as impudently this Baptist hath accused us in page 99. And whereas he seems so much to be offended , that any Doctrine or Ministry should be directed to the Seed of God in man , or that Salvation should be tendred to that , he hath manifested himself wholly ignorant of the Seed of God in that state as a Seed ; For do not the Promises of God belong to the Seed , and when the Spirit of Promise moves any true Witnesse to declare them , are they not to be directed to the Seed which they belong to ? should the Prophets mouths have been stopt when they Prophesied to the Seed ? And Christ as he hath Power to lay down his Life which no man taketh from him , so he hath Power to take it again , John 10.17 , 18. and to raise up his own Life or Seed in his People ; Did not his own Arm or Power bring Salvation to him ? Isa. 63.5 . And where he is manifested in that Power in his Saints , may he not speak thorow them to his own in others where manifest in a less measure ? And did not Saint Paul travel till Christ was formed in the Galathians ? Gal. 4.19 . And what ignorance is it in J. W. to deny ( in page 106. ) that Christ Preached to the Spirits when they were in Prison ? Seeing that when he was quickened by the Spirit , he Preached to the Spirits in Prison , 1 Pet. 3.19 . As also he was promised to open the Prison Doors , and bring forth the Prisoners out of the Prison-house , and he it is that saith to the Prisoners , shew your selves . And J.W. in p. 141. hath further charged absolute falshoods upon us , in saying as that the creature man is not the subject of our blessings , but a supposed seed , and that the subject of our curse ( he saith ) is not the creature man consisting of spirit , soul and body , but a contrary seed , likely the Devil , &c. These are as wicked and false as his accusing us , that when we exhort to perfection we never intend that the creature man with all the helps he can lay hold on , either is , can , or ought to be perfect , as in pages 145 , 146 , 149. when as on the contrary we affirm that the creature man as he comes into the seed of God , which the blessing is originally to , which is perfect , and to be in the nature and life of it , therein he partakes of the blessings which are in that seed and grows unto a perfect man as the Saints did ; and on the contrary , as men or Creatures are joyned to the evil seed , and servants to the Devil , so they become subjects with the Devil of the curse and anger of God which they treasure up to themselves , and this is no emboldning man on in his sin , nor advantagious to Satan , ( as he saith ) p. 141. And we neither exhort God nor Christ to perfection , nor make them the subjects of our exhortation , as J. W. in effect hath accused us ; who but an impudent malicious man would have charged such wicked lyes , absurdities and blasphemies upon us as he hath done ? Are these the fruits of the Baptists spirit ? Sad is that peoples state that have appointed this Jos-Wright for a defence unto them , or their way , as he accounts himself , and poorly are they defended by him . CHAPTER V. Concerning Ordinances , and J. W. his idolatry and falshood about Water Baptism . ANd whereas in pages 33 , 42 , and 158. thou J.W. hast accused such as do preach the Light within , with denying Baptism in water , prayer , and laying on of hands , and with reproaching and despising the Ordinances of the new Testament , and with calling prayer and laying on of hands carnal , &c. To this we lay , thou hast grosely slandered and impudently belyed us in these , as in many other things , for both prayer , laying on of hands , and other ordinances , as they are performed in the Power of God by the leadings of his Spirit we own ; but where such things are done out of the Power or leading of that Spirit in mens wills , they are but formal , dead and empty , and as such to be denyed ; and the one Baptism , Eph. 4.5 . which the outward was but as a figure of we witnesse ; And further note how thou hast contradicted thy self in pages 159. and 160. thou hast accused us for laying on of hands , and for praying once in thirteen dayes at least , with such as are inclinable to our Principles , how then do we reproach and despise prayer and laying on of hands , as in general terms thou hast accused us ? how art thou confounded in thy malicious accusations , which confusion is a fruit of thy envy ? for where envy is there is confusion ; and whereas thou art pleading for the Baptism of Believers in water , as an ordinance of great authority , and as being appointed to signifie the burial and Resurrection of Christ , and the fellowship of true believers in his death , and that it consisteth not in the bare putting away the filth of the flesh as the Jewish Baptisms did , Heb. 9.9 . and that the effect of it is greater then the effect of those legal washings , and thy proof is , 1 Pet. 3.21 , 22. Answ. In thy Epistle to the Churches thou counsellest them not to discourse this Spirit about the Authority of Ordinances , ( meaning the spirit of such as preach up the Light within ) and in thy other Epistle to them that so preach , thou pretendest as if thou would not be disputing about Ordinances when the difference is about the substance , yet now in contradiction to thy former counsel and pretence , thou hast disputed about the authority of Water Baptism , which thou applaudest as thy great Ordinance , as if there were more efficacy in it then the bare putting away the filth of the flesh ; how hast thou discovered thy lying spirit and confusion of Babylon , one while to counsel others , and to pretend not to discourse about Ordinances , and then afterward to contend for them as thou hast done , though to little effect or purpose , they that cannot see thy falshood and folly herein are stark blind ; and that of 1 Pet. 3.21.22 . thou hast absolutely perverted it , for it does no● prove your Baptism in Water to have more in it then the Jewes washings or baptizings , Heb. 9.9 . for there is mention of the Baptism that saweth , which is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh , but the answer of a good Conscience , which the outward water or washing is mentioned as a figure of , for there is a plain distinction betwixt the inward Baptism that saveth , and the outward washing or putting away the filth of the flesh ; and the true believers in Christ are come further then that which is but the sign or figure , or doth but signifie Christs burial , Resurrection , or their fellowship in his death , for they are come to be baptized into his death , and to be raised in his life by that Spirit which hath baptized them , which is the substance wherein the signes and shadows are ended , which Christ through his death and suffering made way for mens Redemption out of , and abolished the Law of Commandements by which these outward shadows and figures which related to that state that was under the Law were upheld , where the possession of the holy Seed which is the substance , was not attained to , and the use of such outward Baptisms or shadows ( by any of the Apostles for a time ) does not prove them of force by a Law , since Christ fulfilled them and abolished the Law of them , Eph. 2.15 . Col. 2.14.20 . and through suffering made way for a further , more glorious and living dispensation then that wherein the signs , shadows or figures were upheld by a Law. And where proves J. W. that outward Baptism in Water does signifie or resemble Christs death , burial , or Resurrection , as he hath implyed ? We hope he will not say that Believers dye in outward Baptism and are buried three daies in the Water , as Christ was in the Earth ; so that Water Baptism when it was practiced by a command from heaven as John did , it had rather a resemblance or signification of the state of Believers and their inward washing , then of the state of Christ in his sufferings and Resurrection . And where J. W. as a proof for his Water Baptism , brings Rom. 6.4 . Col. 2.12 . We are buried with him by Baptism into death , &c. In this he hath contradicted himself ; for before this Baptism in Water was but to signifie the Burial and Resurrection of Christ , and the fellowship of the Saints in his death , and therefore it could not be that Baptism by which they were buried with Christ into death ; so all may see what Idolatry he is in about Water , and how he is mudled in his confusion , though he ( without just cause ) is offended that we should count their Baptism a carnal empty shadow or low thing that God is gone out of , though it be both true and apparent enough , since they make such an Idol of it , and practise it without either immediate command from Heaven , or motion of Gods Spirit for it , but onely do it by tradition and imitation from the use of it in the time of the Churches Infancy , when peoples minds were not redeemed out of such things . And as for Christs sending the blind man to wash his eyes in the pool of Siloam , who when he had washed came seeing , John 9.6 , 7. This is no proof for your plunging or baptizing People in water , though J.W. thou hast brought it for thy proof , so that thou hast but herein discovered thy idolatrous Spirit ; and for all thy Baptism in Water thou art yet blind , thy eyes are not opened , though thou hast had more of thy body outwardly washed then thy eyes . And further in p. 39. and 40. Joseph VVright saith , That Baptism in VVater in the Name of Jesus Christ is unto the Repentant Believer the way of Salvation , because Christ hath walked therein to make it so , &c. and that as the sinner comes to be washed in his body with pure water , so he comes to be sprinkled in his heart or spirit with the bloud of Christ from an evil conscience , and to prove it he cites Heb. 10.22 . Answ. Here it may be seen how this Baptist goes on in his Idolatry , and what a great Idol he hath made of Water Baptism , to account it the way of Salvation , and so he hath set up another way for Salvation then the true Ministers did , for Christ is the way of Life and Salvation , and the Rock from whence comes the water of Life , which sprinkles the heart from an evil Conscience , and this is not a carnal or visible Element of the world ; so that this Baptist in preaching up water Baptism to be the way to Salvation , he would limit Christ and his salvation , as if none were in the way of salvation , but a company of Baptists or such as are plunged by them in outward Water ; and so if that water-Baptisme be the way of Salvation , then it is Christ , ( but this is another Christ then the true Apostles preached , so that this Doctrine herein must needs be Antichristian ) from which also it follows that those that would know the way of salvation and come to Christ , they must go to the Baptists for Christ and Salvation , which if their Water-Baptism be it , then they can make Christ , and make a way of Salvation , and then in such places where there is not outward water enough to be found to plunge people in over head and ears , there they must want salvation if then Water-Baptism be it ; and if the sinner comes but to be sprinkled from an evil conscience , when his body is washed in outward water , and that be the way of cleansing a heart from an evil conscience , then it seems that all mens consciences are evil but the Baptists ; And thus he hath discovered his absurdity and grosse Idolatry , as one that never knew the way of Salvation , nor that living water which cleanseth the heart from an evil conscience , nor that one Baptism of the spirit which the Saints preached , by which they were all baptized into one body , which is the substance , wherein the antitype , and end of shadows , and figures , and how far they reached , is seen and manifested ; and J.W. thy doctrine of Idolatry tend more to strengthen the Papists in their way for the Popish masse then theirs who preach up the Light within , though thou hast charged such a Preacher of the Light with denying the bread which is eaten in that you call the Lords Supper to be made of Corn , or the Wine that is drunk to be the fruit of the Vine , as in Pag. 48. but him whom thou hast so accused , thou hast not discovered by name , nor where he spoke it , for there is none that truely owns and Preaches the light within , that will say that outward bread which is eaten in that called the Lords Supper is not made of Corn , or deny the outward Wine that is drunk to be the fruit of the Vine ; But this we know , that the Lords Supper is a mysterie which you who live in deceit and iniquity , ( who are doating about outward shadows , as bread , and wine , and water , ) never came to eat or drink at , but only they who are come to the Lamb of God that takes away sin , and to the marriage Supper of the Lamb , who saith , behold I stand at the door and knock , if any man hear my voice and open to me , I will sup with him and he with me , and here at this supper that bread and that fruit of the Vine is received in the Paradice of God , which is not outward , changable , nor carnall ; and to this Supper , Drunkards , Malitious persons and Liars cannot come ; and wherein page 47. thou judgest such as preach the Light within , for their reward to have the mist of darknesse reserved for ever ; In this thou hast but discovered thy self to be in the gall of bitternesse , and in the enmity of him who is the Father of Lyes , whose work thou art in , against the Light and the Children of it , and that will be thy own reward which thou hast judged others with , unless thou repentest ; more of thy folly and confusion about these carnal things which thou art doting about might be mentioned , which at present are omitted , but thou hast discovered thy self sufficiently already , as one that never knew the way of Salvation , nor the cleansing of thy heart from an evil conscience , for all thy Baptism in water , which thou hast accounted the way of Salvation and cleansing , though others of you Baptists have openly said , ( as some did at a Dispute in Southwark ) there is no stresse for Salvation upon Water Baptism , nor is it of necessity for Salvation ; and thus you confound your selves , and thy confusion and idolatry as much appears touching these things thou hast busied thy self about , as any that ever opposed us . And let all that read this further mark thy confusion , and see thy deceit in thy so absolutely judging us for the mist of darknesse for ever , and giving such a final sentence of condemnation upon us as if there were no hope of Salvation or remedy for us , when as in thy Epistle to us thou hast told us , thou shalt onely receive a sober Antagonist , or else expect our renouncing our errour , repenting , believing , and obeying the Gospel . Now if either of these ( viz. either a sober Antagonist , or repenting , believing , and obeying the Gospel ) be to be expected among us , then there remains some hope of Salvation for us , and that we are not given up for destruction , or for the mist of darknesse for ever , as thou hast judged us , without any restriction ( or exception ) and thus all may see what an unjust Judge thou art , and how thou are spoiled in thy wicked ends and designs , and what an irrational man thou art so absolutely to judge them for the mist of darknesse for ever , whom thou hast expected to believe and obey the Gospel ( if not a sober Antagonist ) or at least wise thou hast pretended it ; truly its high time for thee to repent , for thou art far from the Life of the Gospel , or its faith and obedience , who notwithstanding hast accounted us more proud then others for judging or reproving , yet in such a high degree hast set thy self to be a Judge , as to judge such as preach the Light within , for the mist of darknesse for ever , ( though thou hast pretended to have an expectation of Repentance , Faith , and Obedience from such as thou hast so judged . And you Baptists were wont to exclaim against others for judging , though now you can so peremptorily judge such to be rewarded with the mist of darknesse for ever , who do both preach and own the Light of Christ within , which they that follow shall not abide in darknesse but shall receive the Light of Life . The Lord open your eyes , who have been deceived and misled by such blind guides and defenders as J. W. is , that you may escape out of their snares , and come out of the darknesse and confusion wherein they have led you , that you may know the Light of the Truth to open your understandings , and to guide your feet into the way of Truth , and the path of the just , which is the shining Light that shineth more and more untill the perfect day , in them that believe and obey the Light of the Lord and his Truth in them . CHAP. VI. Concerning Quaking and Trembling . THe next particular observable is about Quaking and Trembling , and about this J. W. makes a great stir , with several vain stories , And in p. 154. He saith , It is a woful visitation , for it doth not come with a still soft voice , but with Earthquakes , and rending the Rocks , putting the poor creature into a woful condition ; for oh what quakings and shakings , tremblings and fearings , what pulling and dragging is at that time , as if the very heart must be pulled out , and all the bowels torn in pieces , and one limb rent from another , and when the unclean spirit hath pronounced such woes terrours and judgements as long as he thinks fit , which by them is called Hell , then the said Spirit speaks peace to them , &c. And also sayest that this Spirit speaks with a vocal voice in the bottom of the bellies of them that a●e possessed therewith , burrying the creature up and down with motions revelations and commands , &c. Answ. To all which we answer , J. W. hath here shewed not onely ignorance of the works of the Lord and his waies , but hatred and malice against them , and hath uttered many reviling words against that which he knows not , and if he had lived in the dayes of old when the Servants of the Lord quaked and trembled , and roared out because of the terrour of the Lord that was upon them , what would he have said , surely no lesse of them then he hath done of us at this day , and would have called it an unclean spirit , and a woful visitation and condition ; and therefore we shall first prove out of the Scriptures that there was such a thing as trembling and quaking and roaring out even as men distracted among the Servants of the Lord in generations past , and then shall vindicate such a thing in these our dayes upon this reason ; That God and his works and discoveries are the same in this age according to the manifestation of his power amongst his People as ever they were ; So dreadful was the appearance of God that Moses saw , that he said I exceedingly fear and quake , Heb. 12.21 . and David roared out by reason of the disquietnesse of his heart , and his heart panted , and his strength failed , and there was no foundnesse in his flesh , nor any rest in his bones , Psal. 38. and his flesh trembled because of the Judgements of God , Psal. 119.120 . And it s said , while I suffer the terrours of the Lord I am as a distracted man , Psal. 88.15 . And Ezra said , I rent my garment and my mantle , and pluckt off the hair of my head , and of my beard , and sat down astonished , and there were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel , Isa. 9.3 , 4. And Jeremy also said that he trembled , and his bones did shake , and he was like a drunken man , Jer. 23.9 . And the Prophet Habakkuk said , my belly trembled , my lips quivered at the voice , rottennesse entered my bones , and I trembled in my self , chap. 3.16 . and St. Paul was among the Corinths in much trembling , and exhorted the Saints to work out their Salvation with fear and trembling , Phil. 2.12 . And thus it is manifest throughout the Scriptures of both Old and New Testament , that the Saints and Servants of God did tremble and were astonished , and were as distracted persons , and there were earthquakes among them , & rending of the rocks , and quakings , and shakings , and tremblings , and fearings , ( as J. W. his words are ) and the appearance of the Lord was wonderful , and wrought wonderful effects and operations upon them , though this same J. VV. seems ignorant of , like as if he had never read the Scriptures , though in place elsewhere he speaks highly of them yet 't is manifest he is not in that Truth and Power of God which they declare of , but is a scorner and reviler , and one with the prophane wretches that believes not the Truth of the Scriptures but scorns at the work of God , and such as tremble and quake at his words , whom he regards , Isa 66. And seeing that the Scriptures do thus plentifully prove such an operation , as quaking , and trembling , and trouble , and terrour , through the manifestation of the Power of God , we cannot but for the name of the Lords sake vindicate the same operation in this day , as that same Power is manifest amongst People ; And it is the Power of the Lord , not the spirit of witchcraft or uncleannesse , as J. W. blasphemously affirms , but we know that thousands in these our dayes have been pierced to the heart by the word of the Lord , and have been smitten in their Consciences , and been made to cry out , and roar , and tremble through the disquietnesse of their hearts , and have been brought as low as Hell , even to the sides of the Pit , and to know their bones broken as David did , and they have lain disconsolate for many dayes , and yet the Lord hath after this raised them up into peace , and joy , and comfort , and blotted out their transgressions , and washed them away by the bloud of Iesus , and hath restored comfort for mourning , and the spirit of praise for the spirit of heavinesse according to his promises ; so that were not J. W. a man more ignorant and malitious then a man of Knowledge and good Conscience , he would never presume to have vented such malicious and rayling tearms against us , for and because of the self same operation of the Power of God amongst us , as is so largely demonstrated by examples throughout the Scriptures , so that he hath not onely reviled us at this day , but also the Saints of God in former ages , so declaring himself to the world , to be ignorant of the Scriptures and of the Power of God to Salvation , and a Blasphemer against both . And his Reason to prove it an unclean Spirit that leads them to tremble is , because some have stripped off their Cloaths , and gone naked for a sign , &c. To which we Answer , By the same reason he might as well have said , that was an unclean spirit that led Isaiah the Prophet to put off his shooes , and walk naked and bare-foot as a sign and wonder upon Aegypt , when as it was the Spirit of God that moved him to that work , Isa. 20. and Saul also when he went to Naioth , and the Spirit of God was upon him and prophesied , and he stript off his Cloathes and lay down naked all the day , and all that night , wherefore it was said , is Saul also among the Prophets , 1 Sam. 19.23 , 24. And thus J. W. may see the errour of his own judgement , who hath condemned that Spirit to be unclean , which led Isaiah and Saul to go naked , by his censuring such now as are led by the same Spirit , but against his reproachful tongue we do vindicate such a thing in it self , and that the Spirit of the Lord is not limitted , but may lead some at this day to the same thing , though if any do such a thing in imitation and deceit , we justifie them not . CHAP. VII . Concerning the sufficiency of the Light , and the annointing within to teach all that do believe . AGain the next thing observeable that we can digg out of his heap of Confusion is , he chargeth us with dissimulation , that we never intended that every man should be guided by the Light in them , though we Preach it up , and direct every man to it as a guide , his Reasons for it are , First , Because we intend to communicate a Teacher from without . Secondly , Because we declare to men and women , that if they will but wait in silence , they shall receive virtue and Life from us though they never see us more , by which it appears ( saith he ) that we intend to give a spirit to such as adhere to our Doctrine . Thirdly , Because when we take hold of the hands of men and women , yea , when we have taken hold of the wrists of some , they have been taken with a trembling , &c. Fourthly , Because we are constantly visiting them that are inclining to our Principles , &c. Fifthly , Because we run up and down to spread our Doctrine , and by our Printing such a multitude of Books to Teach men in our way , we cry down Preaching ( saith he ) and that we lay aside Gods Word , and set up our own word , and that Gods Holy Scriptures we reject , and our own unholy Writings we exalt , &c. Sixthly , Because the Light which is in every man , doth not lead us and our followers to do those things we do , &c. page 158 , 159 , 160 , 161 , 162 , 163. Answer , To all these we Answer , That we do turn people to the Light of the Spirit of God within them , and Preach the free Gift and Grace of God that he hath given to the Sons of men in order to their Salvation , and we acknowledge notwithstanding all J. W. his Scornful and Ignorant Railings against us for Preaching the light within , that we are sent of God , and t is our Message that we have received to Preach to all the World , and that we are sent to turn from the darkness to the Light , as the Apostle Paul , Acts 26.18 . and this Light to which he turned them , was not a visible Carnal Light without them , but an Invisible and Spiritual Light that shone in their Consciences , and to this Light Paul was sent to turn them , even to the light that shined in their Hearts , 2 Cor. 4.6 . The light shined in their Hearts , that gave them the light of the Knowledge of the Glory of God in the Face of Christ , and the light of the new Covenant , is the Light of the Spirit of God that shines in mens Consciences , for God hath said , I 'le put my Spirit within them , and write my Law in their Hearts , so that whosoever doth Preach the new Covenant , must Preach the light within ; but of this about Preaching the light within , more in another place , therefore here we pass it , and shall examine his fix feeble Reasons , by which he would prove that we dissemble with people in Prrac●ing the light within , and we never intend what we say , which is a notorious slander , that shews J. VV. hath neither wit nor good Conscience ; for might not he as well have brought all these his Reasons against the Apostles who Preached the same Doctrine of the light within as we do now , for when Saint John said to the Church , ye have anointing within you , and ye need not man to Teach you , but as the same annointing teacheth you , 1 John 2. might not J. W. as well have said to him , John , thou dost not mean as thou speakest , but dissemblest with them , for thou sayest , they have annointing ( or light ) within them , and they need no man to teach them , but as that doth teach them , and yet thou thy self art a Teacher without them , and thou givest exhortations to them by Declarations and Epistles , and tellest them if they abide in the anointing that they have received , and in Christ , they shall not sin ; and though the Saints in former Ages were thus taught by the anointing within them , yet they did constantly visit one another , and prayed one for another as the annoting led them , but hadst thou J. W. lived in their dayes , thou mightest have said , John , thou dost plainly declare that the anointing in the Saints will not do the business , as thou scornfully sayest to us , but thou Communicate an unclean spirit , and thou writest Epistles , and spreads thy Doctrine by Letters or Books , and the Apostles run up and down from one Nation , Country and City to another ; and what need you do this , if the annointing within be sufficient to teach them ; and if it be sufficient , why does not every particular Saint do that which some do ? Why doth not every one of the Christians go up and down Preaching as well as some few of you Apostles ? Thus and after this manner might thou J. W. have reasoned against the Apostles and Saints as well as against us , and doubtless , hadest thou lived in their dayes , thou wouldest have said no less by them then thou dost by us , but this is to manifest thy own folly and weaknesse , who cannot understand how the annointing dwells in the Saints and teacheth them into all Truth ; and how notwithstanding they edifie one another , and instructs one another by words and writings ; this same thing was true amongst the Apostles and Primitive Christians and is true also at this day among us , though thou objects against it , nay reviles and slanders the witness of the same at this day , and this is thy ignorance and weakness , who art not worthy to be named a defender of the Gospel of Christ , as thy works makes to appear . And as for J. W. his saying as if we should say , They should receive virtue and life from us , and that we intend to give a spirit , and of taking hold of the wrists of some , &c. And that we lay aside Gods Word , and reject Scriptures , and exalts our own unholy writings , &c. These are slanderous accusations and malitious suggestions , as if we were Witches and such like ; And this is spoken by him with a tendency ( as doth appear ) to enrage the spirits of ungodly men against us ; We do not say they shall receive Life from us , but if they wait upon God in the Ministration of his Life and Spirit , they shall receive Life from him , and sufficient instruction by his Grace and Gift within them if they never see us more , and they shall receive the Spirit of Truth from God , though we are made Ministers of the Spirit , which the Father giveth to all his Children ; and as for our taking one another by the hands by way of kind Salutation one of another , Why doth he wickedly surmize against us for this practice , but that out of the abundance of his malitious heart , his tongue speakes fraudilently , as if we did bewitch people thereby ; thus much he seems to intimate by his reproachful expressions , that we intend by taking one another by the hands to communicate a spirit , which is onely his ignorant and malitious suggestion ; and as for our denying the Word of God and rejecting Scriptures , we shall pass it here ( onely tell thee J. W. thou hast slandred us ) and speak fuller to it by and by . 1. But concerning immediate teaching of God by the light and anointing within , I would yet more fully explain , that I might be understood of all . First , We do not affirm that every man in the world ( to wit ) unbelievers as well as believers have received the anointing and spirit within them , so as they need no man to teach them ; for this is onely proper to the Saints of God , who have believed in and received Christ Jesus and his Spirit , that anointing which teacheth them all things , and leadeth into all Truth , and they abiding in this anointing , they need no man to teach them but as it teacheth , and this is the new Covenant of God , and according to his promise , I will put my spirit within them , and write my Law in their hearts , and they shall need no man to say , know the Lord , but from the least to the greatest they shall all know me saith the Lord ; But as we have said , this is only proper to the Believers and Sanctified in Christ Jesus , and this state is not proper to the unbelievers in the world in their state of unbelief , who rejects the Counsel of God , and refuses to be taught by him and led of him , and quenches the Spirit of the Lord. 2. But though this state was promised by the Lord that his people should be thus taught , and the Saints did in the Apostles dayes witness it , as in Johns Epistle before cited , and the Saints of God now in this age do witness the same ; Yet notwithstanding the Saints did and may edifie one another , and build up one another in the most holy Faith , and Comfort one another by advice and Counsel , and instruction through declaring the Word of the Lord one to another , and Ministring the Gospel of Christ and of his free gift one to another , as the anointing within moveth and teacheth , this was the Saints practice in the dayes of old , and is their practice at this day , for let none mistake us , as if any were so taught of God by the anointing and Light within that they were thereby uncapable of , and freed from all good instruction , edification and counsel , visitations and salutations of Love amongst them and one towards another , like as if they were so taught of God as their state admited of carelesness , and rejecting of love and exhortations one from another , we tell thee nay , but we are so taught of God at this day as the Saints before us were by the light and annointing within , which we have received from God , that alwayes we are capable of and willing to receive edification and counsel , and advice through the Word of the Lord , and by his Spirit that dwells in us , and extends one to another by good advice and counsel , consolation and comfort , so that these two do agree ( to wit ) immediate Teaching by the anointing and light within us , and exhortation and edification one of another by the same spirit and anointing among us , and these two are not contrary one to the other . 3. Yet we do say , though the unbelievers have not so received the anointing and spirit within them , as that they need no man to teach them , as the believers have received it ; yet the Gift of the Spirit of God and the light of it is given to them , and manifested in their Consciences , and hath its operation of conviction and reproof , because of their unbelief and Iniquities , and these needs to be taught without them , even turned and directed to this same light within them , that they may believe in Christ Jesus , and wait upon the Lord in it , thereby to receive the anointing and pouring forth of the Spirit through Faith in Christ Jesus , that they may be also-taught of God as believers and regenerate persons , and may need none to teach them , but as the Gift and Grace of God within them , and such in the state of their unbelief , have need to be Preached unto , that they may believe and be renewed , and receive more of the Spirit and of the Grace of God in a greater measure , and may come into Covenant with God , and be so taught of him , as not to need another Teacher . And thus we have shewed , First , That the Saints are taught of God and they need no man to teach them , but as the anointing within them . Secondly , That they are not so taught of God , as not to be capable to receive advice and instructions one of another in the Lord. Thirdly , How the unbelievers hath the Light of Christ given to them , and yet hath need of teaching without them . And thus I have answered and confuted that foolish charge of J. W. that we dissemble by telling people the light within is the Teacher , and yet intends it not , and have shewed him that we do say , the Saints that are called and regenerated , have received the spirit in that manner and measure , as that they need no man to teach them but as the anointing , and the unbelievers have the Gift of the Light of the spirit of God given to them , that it may teach them , and therefore we preach the Gospel to them to beget Faith in their Hearts , and that they may receive Christ and his anointing to Teach them and lead them into all Truth : And now I shall proceed to the next thing observeable , which is concerning our Meetings . CHAP. VIII . Concerning meeting together , and silent waiting upon the Lord , with something about back-sliders , and the spirit that Acts them . J. W. saith , An evil spirit is our Familiar , which we communicate to such as adhere to our Doctrine . And first he saith , it appears by that humming and hollow sithing among us , which is from the evil spirit . Secondly , Our silent meeting is the direct Practice ( saith he ) of such as have familiar spirits , and to what end are our silent Meetings , but for the communicating of our unclean spirits ; for never did any of the servants of the Living God hold meetings in silence , to meet and not speak one word ; and such Meetings are contrary to the practice of the people of God in all ages , and they are gone aside after Satan , whose Doctrine they publish , and whose unclean spirits they hold Assemblies in private to communicate . 3. He speaks of some confession of some of our own Proselytes , that there came a Spirit into one of them as he was going to reprove another , which did roar and make a terrible noise in his belly ; and another story or two he tells of some that hath now forsaken us , that a Spirit came into him that did make him quake and tremble so exceedingly that he thought it would have tore him , &c. And another confessed that there did a Spirit speak within her , bidding her leave her Kindred , &c. Then he concludes this Chapter with a certain story us he calls it , of the sad pranks the Devil played on one that thought himself perfect , pages 164 , 165 , 166 , 167 , 168. Answ. 1. To all which we do Answer , That all these poor weak reasons asserted doth not prove his assertion , that we communicate an evil Spirit to such as adhere to our Doctrine ; the Assertion in its self is a lye , and a grievous slander , published without the fear of God , and what sober men could imagine that a Baptist Teacher , a defender of their Gospel , as he accounts himself in his Epistle , should use such a weapon against us as so foul and grosse a slander as this is , especially at this day , when both he and we are in a suffering state and condition from our adversaries , wherein we might rather have comforted one another in our sufferings , then added to one anothers grief and affliction by fighting one with another before our adversaries , that would rejoyce to see us both destroyed that they may glory over us ; And as for that humming and hollow sighing as he calls it , it is not from an evil Spirit as he supposeth , but rather occasioned by the Spirit of God which worketh according to that Scripture , with groans and sighs that cannot be uttered , Rom. 8. And the Lord despises not the sighing of the poor , and the Saints groaned in themselves ; and had J. W. or his helpfellows in this his folly been as wise and judicious as he would be accounted , he would rather have judged the deep sighs that he speaks of had arisen from the work of Gods Spirit rather then from an evil Spirit ; for what would he have said of them in whom there was such groans and sighs which could not be uttered , and that groaned within themselves ( as in Romans 9. ) would not he have said these were from a familiar and evil Spirit ; and as for some being enabled at our Meetings , as he saith , to speak two or three hours , this he judges also to be from an evil Spirit ; the Lord forgive him and make him more wise , or else he can never inherit Eternal Life , that thus judges it to be an evil Spirit by which the Servants of God are enabled to speak his word even immediately without consultation or study ; what would he have said of Peter who so immediately inspired that he lift up his voice and preached the Gospel in a wonderful manner , to the amazement of the Hearers , being an unlearned man , and not used to large Orations , and this was not by carnal study , nor of an evil Spirit , but even as the Spirit within him moved him , Acts 2. and yet there were some at that day of J. W's Spirit who said he was drunk , and the like , because the Spirit of God carried him out so wonderfully in Declaration , and he saith that it is done in these dayes by an evil familiar Spirit ; Oh J. W. thou Enemy of God , Repent , who hast judged the Spirit of God to be an evil Spirit ; and of many of the Prophets of the Lord , it is said that the Spirit of God came upon them at such and such times , and they spoke to admiration , when as at other times it is possible they appeared weak men ; for saith the Apostle , of our selves we can do nothing , but by Christ we can do all things ; of themselves they were weak , but of Christ strong and mighty , and thus it is among us at this day , we are not ashamed of it , even sometimes we are strong and mighty by Christ , and sometimes of our selves mean and weak . 2. As for our silent meetings which J. W. hath charged to be the direct practice of such as have familiar Spirits , We say that this is a contradiction to his last saying , who charged us with speaking too much in our meetings , and now charges us with too much silence , this is direct contradiction , and therefore how shall we escape the judgement of his slanderous reproachful tongue , who accuses us for speaking sometimes too much and sometimes too little ; and also doth assert that when we speak we do it by a familiar and evil Spirit , and when we are silent that is by a familiar and evil Spirit too ; Oh thou Enemy of God how shall we escape thy cruel censures , it appears whether we speak or be silent in our meetings it is not pleasant to thee , for thou art of the Spirit of which Christ speaks , who said , John came neither eating nor drinking , and yet that Spirit said he had a Devil , and Christ came eating and drinking , and it said he was a wine-bibber , and the same Spirit is J. W. and his fellows of , who say it s by an evil and familiar Spirit that we speak , and its by an evil and familiar Spirit that we are silent . 3. Our meetings are according to the mind of God and example of Gods people in fornier ages , and they are for the end to wait upon God and worship him , and we have the evident . Testimony of the Spirit of God in our own Consciences many thousands of us , that the Lord God hath been present with us in his heavenly vertue , and power , and comfort , and Soul-refreshments in such our Meetings , and that many a time have we found the Lord when we have been met together to wait upon him , even to the satisfaction of our immortal souls , who hath revealed his goodnesse and his saving health unto us even in our meetings , and this the Spirit of God witnesses to us , blessed be his name , notwithstanding whatsoever J. W. or any such slanderous tongues can oppose in this case ; and we have large example in the Scriptures that the people of God met together in the same way and manner as we do now , in private houses , and sometimes in the fields , and sat sometimes long in silence , as Ezek. 3. The Children of the captivity they sat together , and Ezekiel was astonished amongst them seven dayes , and at the end of seven dayes , and not before , the word of the Lord came to him ; and would not J. W. have lookt upon this silence to have been from an unclean spirit ? and Job that servant of God sat with his friends seven dayes and seven nights and spake not a word one to another ; so that from hence it is proved that some of Gods servants did sit in silence for a long time , neither do we read that the Churches of Christ had alwayes speaking and preaching amongst them when they met together , though often they had , and thus we cannot but vindicate such a practice in it self , and the scripture is plain for it , as in sitting together in silence , and in that silence the Lords presence sweetly enjoyed , though yet there are very few of our meetings in such silence as that some one or other or more hath not something given of God by way of Exhortation to the People or Prayer to God , few meetings I believe wherein the Lord doth not stir up the hearts of some or other to mention his Name ; so that we would be understood in this , we plead not for silence in opposition to all speaking , nor can we plead that of necessity some must speak , or else God cannot be worshipped , though there is no such thing amongst us as brain-study or knowledge before-hand that we shall speak , or what we shall say , like the Diviners of this age , who makes up their matter before-hand , and shapes it , what and how to say it before they come among the People to whom they must say it , like Artists and Tradesmen , this kind of way we reject as unprofitable to God-wards ; yet if any have a particular message ascribed to them of God to a particular People or Person , which if any have , let them retain what God puts into their hearts and be faithful to speak it ; but the general way in which God leads us is this , 1. We do know it is our duty by the perswasions of the spirit of God in our own Consciences , and partly by the examples of Saints declared in scriptures , to meet together at a convenient time and place , and so oft as the wisdom of God shall order for us , which dwells with us . 2. Being come together we are turned to the Lord in our minds , to feel our peace , and joy , and comfort , and how our conditions are to God-wards in our own particulars . And 3. if any amongst us receive any thing from the Lord to speak of what his work is in them , and what he has done for them , or by way of exhortation to administer comfort to others , or by way of reproof to convince or convert others , or by way of praises unto God for his mercies received , or in Prayer for what is wanted , I say if any amongst us find ought of this from the Lord upon them , they speak it to others , and its well-pleasing to God , and comforting one to another ; but notwithstanding if nothing of this be received from the Lord by any in a meeting to declare to others , yet our peace and joy and comfort and Teacher is with us , even the grace and Spirit & anointing of God that dwells with us , by which every one is fed and refreshed in his own heart in the presence of the Lord ; and this is the manner and end and practice of and in our meetings , and that its the practice of familiar Spirits to sit in silence , and for the communicating of an unclean Spirit , and that none of the people of God ever did thus , and that such a practice is not in the example of Scriptures , and that we are gone aside after Satan , and publishes his Doctrine , and communicates his unclean Spirit ; these are six abominable ungodly lyes uttered by J.W. in about 2 pages of paper , and therefore I cannot but exhort thee to Repentance , if thou hast not sinned the sin unto damnation , that thou may find mercy if it be not too late ; and thus much about our meetings , which are for the worship of God , which I could not but vindicate in opposition to thy false assertions about the same ; and whether J. W. and his fellows be not themselves guided by an unclean Spirit in slandering the Innocent , let the God of Heaven and Earth judge , and Saints and Angels testifie . Concerning Back-sliders , and J. W. his stories . 4. As for the stories which he tells of , of one that did confesse that a Spirit made him roar , and of another whom he saith is as a brand pluckt out of the fire , that a Spirit made him quake and tremble , and another who said that the Spirit spoke with a vocal voice in her , and of another who thought himself perfect , and the Devil wrought such strange things upon him , as in page 170 , 171. These I look upon to be meerly vain stories , seeing he hath neither named the Persons , nor the places , nor the time in which these things should have been , and therefore I conclude them onely vain stories and not worth answering , nor spending much time about ; for what manner of evil hath not been said of us within these ten years , the words of Christ have been plainly fulfilled upon us , who said , they shall say all manner of evil falsly of you for my Names sake , and among all manner of evil falsly spoken we reckon these stories of J. W's ; but as for such as he sayes are as brands pluckt out of the fire , I perceive he means such who sometimes have been amongst us and professed and confessed to our Doctrines and waies , and yet afterwards have turned from us , we do confesse such there may be , even such who may have tasted something of the Power of the Lord and of his goodnesse to their souls , and have cryed out and trembled because of their iniquities , yea , and have been called out from their Kindred , as he speaks , and yet some such have turned aside again to vanity , and then have been ready to make Lyes , and frame false reports , and to tell them for their own advantage , to excuse their own revoltings , thinking to defame us as so bad and so evil , that with a more credit to themselves they may turn from us , and some such like persons hath been J. W's informers , if he hath not invented the lyes himself ; And though there be such revolters and false-hearted Hypocrites in the world , yet the way of the Lord and his Truth is alike precious unto us , immutable and unchangeable , though Back-sliders walks not in the way thereof , but seeks to asperse it when they turn aside from it ; but let such persons be marked , some such we do know , and they were wicked and prophane before they came among us , and coming among us , possibly were convinced of their sins , and touched with judgement and sorrow for sin ; but now being turned from us again , they are more prophane then ever , and the Devil is entred again with the unclean Spirits worse then before , and their latter end is worse then their beginning , as the Scriptures says of such , and some such as these are J. W. his converts , and his brands pluckt out of the fire , and such to tell stories and he to publish them are suitable correspondents , but Truth is over them both , and the way of the Lord is pretious and prosperous , notwithstanding all the malicious oppositions that is in the hearts of his Enemies , whose Judgement is such , that they call Truth Errour , and Errour Truth , and calls that the work of the Devil which is of God , and that the work of God which is of the Devil , and the saying is true upon them , a foolish People that have eyes and see not , hearts and understand not . And whereas J. W. hath been opposing the Light within , and both the Preachers and followers of it , thereby proving himself to be neither Preacher of the Light nor follower of it , and therefore neither Minister of Christ nor indeed a Christian ; for whosoever doth not preach the Light and word of God within , is no Minister of Christ , nor in the example of his Apostles , as is manifest at large in this Book ; and whosoever doth not follow the Light of Christ within , and walk by the Spirit of God which is a Light in the heart , is not in the new Covenant , nor a member of the Church of Christ , and such a one J W. is directly concluded to be from his own words , who hath opposed such as preach and follow the Light within , as if all such were in delusion ; and he hath denyed that the Light within is sufficient to lead to repentance from sin , and pardon of sin , and to comfort in God for the soul ; But he hath found out one that doth all this , that shews sin , and that judges for sin , and that leads to mourn and grieve for sin , and takes sin away , and blots it out , ( to wit ) the Devil , as he saith ( if you will believe him ) pray you do but observe his story , page 169. & 170. He tells you there a large story ( but he names neither the Person , nor the place , nor time where and when it was , which we demand of him in his next ) of one that preached the Light within , as he sayes , that the Devil did so and so with him , and that the Devil set all his sins that ever he had done in all his Life before him , as if they had been written in capital Letters , then the Devil laid them all to his charge and did judge him for them , and that the Devil made him to mourn , and grieve , and weep , and made the tears come from his eyes for his sins ; this done , as J. W. relates , then the Devil took all his sins from him , and said , I have blotted out all thy Transgressions , and the Devil let him loose from all his bonds , and then the Devil commanded him to tell what God had done for his soul , &c. Now let any sober man judge , that hath ever read the Scriptures ' whether this be a likely story , for the Scriptures say that it is God that sets mans sin in order before him , and it is God that judges men for sin by his Spirit of Judgement , and it is he that causes men to mourn and grieve for sin , and it is he that takes away their sins and blots them out by the bloud of Christ , and that looseth man from his iniquities and brings them to declare what he hath done for their souls ; and it s our Faith that it is God through his own Son that works all this , and not the Devil , and the Scriptures say the same , Psal. 50. Isa. 4.4 . Dan. 9.24 . John 5.27 . 1 John 1.7 . But J. W. his story is contrary , for he relates that its the Devil that doth all this , and by this you may judge of this story and the Truth of it , and also do but observe the temper of J. W. his Spirit , and you shall see through his Book he opposeth the Light of Christ and the anointing within , as if they were not sufficient for the effecting these things , but he hath found you one that can do these things , and who think you but the Devil , and that can discover sin and condemn for it , and lead People to Repentance , and take away and blot out Transgression , &c. He hath brought you a story for the proof of it which we believe he credits to be true , else he would not have brought it for the proof of his matter , as he hath very pertinently done as he supposes ; and further as his story goes , this Person that the Devil dealt thus by when he would have preached the Light within , the Devil caused his mouth to shut , that he should not preach it , &c. From which it follows , that the Devil and J. W. are both of one mind , for J. W. opposeth the Light within as the Devil does , from which we have the more occasion to stand faithfully in preaching the Light within , seeing both the Devil and J. W. do oppose it , though afterwards his story relates that the Devil made him preach what God had done for his Soul ; and if this be a likely story , let wise men judge ; Oh the Ignorance and Impudency that is fully manifest in J. W. that hath given his Faith to believe that the Devil convinces men of sin , and judges them for it , and takes away their sin . Thus much in Answer to his story till his next return , that we may know by him the Person and the place , in whom and where these pranks of the Devil were acted , as J. W. saith , and in the mean time it rests upon him , that he hath believed and reported better of the Devil then of the Light of Christ Jesus and his Spirit in men , but it seems an unlike story , for the Devil will not destroy his own Kingdom . CHAP. IX . Concerning Humility and Vnity , and the Infalliable testimony . NOw I come to his fourth Chapter , the sum whereof is , that our proofs as he calls them , doth not justifie our way and practice , which he saith are in number five ; First , Our Humility . Secondly , Our Vnity . Thirdly , Our Destroying the Whore. Fourthly , Our discovering all Secrets . Fifthly , Our sufferings In these pretended proofs , saith J.W. like Goliah in his Armour in which we rejoyce , but he saith , He shall be enabled to take this Armour from us , and destroy us with our own Sword wherein we trust . Answer , To which I Answer , First , Generally that I. W. hath here mistaken the matter , and stated the case for himself in such a form as his weak wit may easily answer it , and so hath as it were made a man of straw to fight with it ; for he is mistaken , we do not trust in our own strength , nor in these outward signs and tokens which he hath here laid down ; for thus more fully I answer ; we are the people of God , of his chosen and elected Seed , and our proof , that we are such is the infalliable Spirit of God in us , that he has given us that bears infallible witness and evidence in us and to us that we are such ; and this is the witness , even the holy Spirit of the Father in which we trust ; and this witness is sufficient to us to prove us to be the people of God , and it is the only evidence in which we trust ; so that he hath mistaken the matter , in saying we trust in our Humility , Unity & Sufferings , thus he hath imagined of us , and then goes about to overthrow his own imagination ; an excellent warriour indeed , that can raise false objections to himself , and then confute them , and think he hath confuted us ; but I tell him again , he hath erred in his proceeding , for we do not trust to any proof as infallible , saving the proof and testimony of the Spirit of God that he hath given us , for by that spirit we know we are of God , and they that are of God heareth us , and we are now the Sons of God , and it doth not yet appear what we shall be ; Thus much by way of general answer ; Now we come to Particulars , First , As concerning Humility , J. W doth absolutely deny , we are more humble and free from pride then all others , either in the outward bodily habit , or more secretly in the Heart ; for the Romish Fryars saith he who are great Adversaries to the Truth , they excel in Humility , and they will be justified rather then thee for their Humility ; and again a Hermit at Ickn●m near London , he saith is so , and so humble , neglecting of the Body , &c. Then he seems to condemn us for superfluity , that our Trades , Dit and Garments are as other mens , and the hair of our heads like womens , by wch he saith he sees we are not more free from pride then other men ; and as for pride of Heart , he saith , It is perceived by our countenance and by our Actions , for we neither fear God nor Jesus Christ , we fear not the Judgements of God , but despises his Promises , thou hardens thy self in thy wickedness , the holy Commandements and Precepts of Iesus Christ thou contemns them , and calls them shells without kernels , empty , carnal , lifeless , and thus we esteem the Promises of Life and Immortality , and reject the Promise of the Resurrection , &c. and we do not receive man , he saith , for we do not acknowledge any Superiour , thou wilt not put off thy Hat nor bow thy body to any man , and neglectest Faith and Gospel Obedience , and thy heart is too high to stoop to anything , whereby it should manifest Humility of spirit , Faith and Obedience , by which it is manifest , thou art not more humble but more proude then others , page 175. to 180. Answer , First , Here is a whole pack of lyes and falshoods , reproaches and slanders heaped up together , reproachfully cast upon us : for we glory not in any thing we are , saving in the Lord that has made us what we are , we boast not in our Humility , but that God hath wrought it in our hearts in measure , and it is in us a fruit of his Spirit , this we dare not deny , least we should deny the Work that God hath wrought ; and as for the Romish Fryars and Hermites of which he speaks that are so and so self-denying , we make them no example to us , nor are we of that spirit by which they are guided in their feigned practices of Humility , though he compares us together ; but yet their practises of feigned self-denyal may shame you Baptists , so called , who professes your selves to be the onely Church of Christ , and yet in dayes past , have been so proud and high , that you thought you had never places great enough in the Nation , but exalted your horn so high , that few but such as were of your Fraternity , were counted by you worthy of any place or office , such was your pride in those dayes , and arogancy ( till it was time for the Lord to bring you down ) both in Habit and otherwise , that the very feigned Fryars by their example might shame you , who never came so far in truth of self-denyal as Hypocrites have done in feignedness ; and as for our Trading , Diet and Garments , of which J. W. speaks , they are according to Godliness , and Truth , and Righteousness , and according to example of the Holy men of God before us ; and so is our hair at which he stumbles as if he would fall , and sayes , we are like Locusts , by it , that comes out of the Pit , when as there is neither Command nor Example in Scriptures , how oft nor of what length any should cut their hair , but rather no example at all for cutting it then otherwise ; and was Sampson and Christ and Samuel , and many others of the Servants of God , like Locusts of the bottomless Pit , that wore long hair ? How hast thou unjust Judge and Hypocrite Judged the Servants of God in thy haste and ignorance , by judging of us in the like case that they were guilty of . 2. And as for the pride of our hearts with which we are so deeply charged by J. W. we will rather lie under his false charge with patience , then give any occasion of suspition that we justifie our selves ; but yet I cannot but charge him in this place with a foul high slander , for we fear God and Iesus , and regards his Commandments and despises not his promises , nor hardens our selves in wickedness , nor doth not contemn the Precepts of Iesus Christ , nor the pretious promises of Imortality and the Resurrection , these are all absolute falshoods , and were not J. W. a person altogether impudent and given up to hardness of heart , he would never thus grosly have belyed us , and these lies , must be his onely proof , for he can give no better testimony that we are proud in heart ; the Lord rebuke his lying tongue , it s enough here onely to deny his lies , for most of the particulars are before spoken of , to wit , of the Commandements and Promises of Christ , of the Immortality and the Resurrection ; but he goes on in his accustomed manner of falshoods , and sayes , we acknowledge not any superiours , and that we wholly neglect Faith and Gospel Obedience , and that our hearts are too high to submit to anything of the Spirit , Faith and Obedience , and that we have an eye of scorn and disdain ; all which are lies , and thus J. W. goes on , like as if he had devoted himself to tell a lies , and studied to frame falshood , seeing that every page which I have now under hand carries in it number of lies , but he charges it to be the pride of our hearts , because we will not put off our Hatts ; This is false also as much as the rest , for though we cannot put off our Hat is in Honour to any mans person , nor give them flattering Titles of honour , yet this is not from the pride of our Hearts our God knows , but from another ground as I could demonstrate , were it the present case of controversie ; But being brought by J. W. as a proof of this matter , therefore now I p●sse it ; so that his onely proofs , that we are not more humble , but more proud then others , which is his present assertion , is poorly and weakly mannaged with Proofs and Arguments of absolute deceits and falshoods , who hath not one better proof from his Pen then a lie to prove his proposition ; and thus I passe this particular , commiting him to the reward of God , according to his work which must come upon him one day ; and as for the matter of our Humility , we commit the cause of that also to God , who judgeth more justly then vain man. Now I come to the second Particular of Unity , and J. W. saith , Our Vnity he doth absolutely deny , for Vnity in the truth we have not but in Iniquity , for we do not hold the Head Christ Jesus , and we are not in Vnity , but in confusion , we are not Vnited unto Jesus Christ by Faith , and intimates that we deny Jesus Christ his Person , and contemn his Ordinances , and trample his word under their feet , and this do the Preachers of the Light within , in saith he , for ( saith he ) We are not at Vnity among our selves , but one Preaching one thing , and another Prints the contrary ; and he speaks of one that affirmed that the Bread and Wine spoken of in Scriptures , appointed to be eaten and drunken in remembrance of Jesus Christ is not Temporal nor External , but Spiritual and Eternal ; Another , he saith , should Print that that Bread and Wine is common , such as may be eaten by unbelievers at their Feasts , thus are we divided from the Truth and one from another , saith he , For some do hold that Bread and Wine were to be received until he came , by which we understand until he come in us , and thus the Preachers of the Light within are divided in Doctrine , because one sayes , the Bread and Wine is Eternal ; another saith , it is visible and Temporal ; and one Teacher calleth another Dog , and hath disproved each other , &c. page 183 , 184 , 185. Answer , To all this I answer in opposition to his charge , we are in Unity and Fellowship with the Lord in Spirit , and one with another in him , notwithstanding J. W. his seeming detection as if it were otherwise , and his charge is high , that we have not Vnity in the Truth , but in Iniquity , and his proof for it is like the proof of the former assertion ( to wit ) absolute lies ; for he saith , we do not hold the head Christ Jesus , nor are United to him by Faith , nor have any accesse by him , and that we deny him and his Person , and contemn his Person , and trample his Word under feet ; these are falshoods altogether , and by this means he proves his point , that we have Vnity in Iniquity , and not in the Truth ; t is wickedly affirmed , and as wickedly proved by one of Satans Messengers , who hath set himself to oppose the Lords Truth and his People , and that by his Masters order , and in his Masters way , who was a Lyar from the beginning . Thirdly , And now I come to his Charge , That we are not in Vnity among our selves , which he has proved according to his accustomed manner ; For what if some did say , though he names none , that Christ broke Bread and drank Wine with his Disciples , Temporal and Visible Bread , and he also broke Bread and drank of the Cup with his Disciples , which was Spiritual and Eternal and Invisible , and these may be both affirmed without any contradiction , Christ did eat of the Bread with his Disciples , which might be eaten at unbelievers Feasts , and Christ did eat of the Bread with his Disciples which unbelievers could not eat of , both these are true , and hath no such weight of contradiction in them , as J. W. ignorantly supposes ; and what would he say of the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Iohn , the one saith , God is a consuming fire , the other saith , God is Love ; and of the Prophets , one of whom said , God is angry everyday , and another said , there is no anger in God , would not J. W. had he lived in their dayes , have said , the Prophets and Apostles were divided among themselves ; and as for some calling another Dog , and disowning one another , and yet are all Preachers of the Light within , though he mentions neither the time , place , nor persons , and therefore because in other cases he speaks so falsly , of which I well know , therefore I may have jealousie , this is false also ; But however , suppose a deceitful person that never knew the work of Regeneration should speak of , ye Preach of the Light within , may not he be called a Dog , and disowned , and yet no division among us ? for such are not of us , but contrary to us , and we are onely divided from them , and not among our selves ; and had J. W. lived in the Apostles dayes , what would he have said , when some of the Apostles withstood others in some controversies , would not he have said ye are dissemblers , ye have not Unity among your selves , but are in confusion , and so and so ; and also when some deceivers got up and Preached Christ and the Gospel , pretendedly for filthy lucre , and for covetousness , and had the form of godliness , and were sometimes conversant in the Churches , but the Apostles cryed against them and disowned them , though they were among the Churches , and Preached the Apostles words ; but were the Apostles therefore divided , and deceivers , and in confusion , because of some such amongst them ? Thou ignorant man , I tell thee nay , no more are we , though Hypocrites may get the words of Truth from our mouths , for such are not of us , but we are divided from them , though among our selves in the Body of Christ of which we are members , we have Unity , Peace and Fellowship with the Lord , and one with another . CHAP. X. Concerning destroying the Whore , discovering Secrets , and sufferings , &c. NOw I come to the third Particular about destroying the Whore , which J. W. saith he denyes we do , his Reason is this , because we were not instrumental in Banishing the Popes Nuntio's , Legates and Iesuites , nor have we stopt the Popes Pardons nor Indulgencies by our Preaching ; and he sayes , when did we cause Cross and Crucifix to be pulled down , and when was Bell , Book and Candle , Monasteries and Popish Hierarchy demolished by us ; then he speaks of our running up and down and railing against the Ministers of the Nation , and giving them reviling Language , and what we do in destroying the Whore , as if we would turn people out of one way of wickedness into another as bad or worse , and we delude the Whore more then any others , we bid her Repent , but withal , teaches her to reject the Word of God , and to reject Christ and disobey the Gospel , &c. pages 185 , 186 , 187. Answer . To all this I Answer , The Whore is the false Church , not onely the false Church of Rome , as J. W. seems onely to intimate , but the Whore is all that hath the name of Church , whether they be National or Congregated Churches so called ) that do not witness , nor can prove that they are lawfully married to Christ , such whomsoever are the Whore , and against this Whore we are ●ent to give our testimony against her by the Spirit of the Lord , in order to the converting people from her , and to destroy her , which we know the God of Heaven will effect by his Power in his own season ; but he denies this , because we have not banished the Popes Nuntio's , nor the Jesuites out of this Land , &c. By the same Rule J. W. nor none of his Fellows , nor the Baptists are not themselves the True Church , nor destroyers of the Whore as they pretend ; and while we are censured by them , not to be destroyers of the Whore , but one with her , or worse then she , by the same reason they give that we are such , they themselves are proved to be as bad as they say we are ; For when did any of the Baptists banish any of the Popes Nuntio's , Jesuites or Legates out of England , and when did they stop the Popes Pardons and Indulgencies by their Preaching ? And when did they demolish Bell , Book and Candle , and Popish Hierarchy , and pull down Popish Crosses and Crucifixes ? If these be found Reasons alleadged against us , that we are not destroyers of the Whore because thereof , by the self same Reasons J. W. and his Fellow Baptists are proved to be no destroyers of the Harlot , the false Church , but as bad as she , and upholders of her . Secondly , But is this the way to destroy the Whore by Banishing , killing and destroying the persons of the Papists , and by laying violent hands on their Crosses and Monasteries ? &c. I say no , for the destruction of the Whore must be by converting and turning people from her by found Doctrine , and by drawing people by True Love from errour and falshood to Truth and Righteousness , and not by killing and banishing , and doing violence to persons for their errours sake ; but it is manifest that the Baptists would destroy the Whore , the Church of Rome , and all that differs from them in point of Religion on this wise , by killing and banishing persons , and this is clearly manifest by his own words , that they pretend to destroy the Whore by killing and banishing persons , which is a Spirit of cruelty which lodges in their hearts against the persons of people that differs from them , and it is the same spirit that is in the Whore of Rome , that would bring forth the same practice if it had as great force ; but let me tell them this is not the way to destroy the Whore , but thereby they rather prove themselves to be of the Whore ( bloudy and cruel ) that drinks the bloud of the Martyrs and Prophets . 3. And whereas J. W. charges us with running up and down and railing against the Ministers of the Nation , Hereby it is manifest that he takes part with the false Ministry in opposition to us , and hath joyned himself to Baal , and hath charged us with deluding the Whore more then any others do , and if we turn any from the National way of Worship , and from the Papists , and if any turn from open prophanenesse to joyn with us in the way of the Lord , J. W. hath concluded such to be in a worse way of wickednesse , and to be more deceived in that state then if they were Papists , Idolaters , or common prophane Persons , thus much his words signifie , for though ( saith he ) we bid them repent , yet we teach them to reject the Word of God , and Christ himself , as though Preaching Repentance were a rejecting of the Word of God and of Christ himself , which is ignorance and impudency in J. W. to affirm , who also doth signifie that such as turns from common Idolatry and open prophanenesse to our way , are in a worse condition with us then they were before ; the Lord rebuke his ignorance as well as his lyes . 4. And we do know that our Testimony against the false Ministry in these Nations hath not been ineffectuall , but God hath blessed our endeavours , and converted many from the way of Errour in Doctrine , Practice and Worship , to the way of Truth and Righteousnesse , though J. W. reproachfully calls it running up and down railing and cursing of the Ministry , which is like the rest of his work , ( to wit ) falshood ; for we have given a blessed and a precious Testimony against unrighteous wayes , and not used cursed nor railing language , though we have spoken plainly and not flatteringly to them , neither have we as some of J. W's Brethren and Generation have done , cryed against them , for the end that we might dispossesse their Persons and possesse their Places , and Benefits , and Tyches , and Hire ; These things have we not done , though I could mention some of the Baptists that have done it to my knowledge , like Hypocrites and self-seeking persons , I cannot but speak plainly seeing I am provoked to it , and to lay their own wickednesse upon them , and let J. W. defend such if he will , and he shall hear from me again . 5. Now I come to his fourth Particular about discerning of secrets , which he sayes he denyes , and that we do not discern the mystery of Christ his taking away the sin of the world , nor the mystery and the secret of God manifest in the flesh , &c. These mysteries we are ignorant of , though we can discern who we have deceived by that spirit of Antichrist which guides us ; and he speaks of some that have been mistaken in some things , and thus he saith , thy deceitful dealing is seen , and the pride of thy heart , &c. page 188 , 189. Answ. As for discerning of Spirits , I do say it is the gift of God that God giveth unto his People , and there is such a gift in the true Church as discerning of Spirits and secrets , and this same gift God hath given some at this day , but that we discern not the mystery of Christ Jesus nor of God manifest in the flesh , this is J. W. his accustomed language , to wit of lyes and falshood , which I sum up to the rest of his Lyes ; and as for our being guided by the Spirit of Antichrist and deceiving others thereby , this is spoken in his haste if not in his malice , and because he gives no proof for it , I passe it with the Answer of a plain denial ; And as for mistake of persons or things which he imputes to us , suppose it be true which he saith , yet this proves us not to be dissemblers and deceived , as he concludes of us ; for was not the Apostle Paul who had the gift of discerning , sometimes mistaken , as particularly in the case of the High-Priest , and afterwards said he wist not that it was Gods High-Priest ; now J. W. would have charged Paul by the same rule he charges us , that he was ignorant of the mysteries of Christ , and led by the Spirit of Antichrist , and a deceiver and dissembler and deceitfull dealer , and that he had not the Spirit of discerning , but was proud in heart ; Why ? because he mistook a Person , but such false judgement J. W. spends in his haste and malice . Now I come to the fifth Particular about sufferings , and J. VV. saith , It is not sufferings onely which makes a Martyr , but the cause for which the sufferings are ; and he bids leave off boasting in our sufferings , for Romish Priests though great Adversaries to the Truth , yet for sufferings they exceed us , and we suffer many times as evil doers , and there is a Spirit in us that waits but for an opportunity to make others to suffer ; and he speaks of one that hath been threatned to be thrust out of doors by head and shoulders , and sayes you will be as free to execute punishment whensoever you obtain Power to enable you to do it , &c. page 190 , 191. Answ. 1. As for sufferings we do confesse that we are and have been a suffering people under cruel persecutions even to death and banishment out of the Dominions where some of us have lived , and such our sufferings have been for the Name of the Lord , and for good Conscience sake , this the Lord himself from Heaven bears witness of daily , and then what need we care for all J. VV. saith with his lying Spirit to the contrary ; and some of our Friends have been Martyrs , not because of their sufferings onely , but for the cause for which they have suffered , which is the direct cause of God and of a good Conscience , and J. VV. is never able to prove the contrary , though we do not boast of our sufferings as he falsly saith , nor do we look upon our selves to be the People of God , because we suffer , but we know we are the people of God and therefore we suffer , and herein is Christs words fulfilled upon us , who said , as they have done unto me so shall they do unto you , and they shall speak all manner of evil on you for my Names sake , and he that suffers as a Christian , it is a Testimony to him that he is of God , and that his Persecutors are of the Devil . 2. As for the Romish Priests who have deeply suffered , though I will not say for Truth and Righteousness sake , yet their sufferings are a shame to your Generation , who cannot suffer for that which you call the Truth , as they do for that which you call falshood , and do not they here shame you , who can suffer death for their Religion , but you Baptists that was lately tryed by Imprisonment , though at first many of you refused to swear as out of point of Conscience , yet afterwards the generall part of you did deny your own Principles , and did swear contrary to the command of Christ , and to what once your selves professed , and for which you were imprisoned , and thus you proved deceitful Persons , and Hypocrites , and such as would neither keep Conscience to God nor Faith to men ; and J. VV. himself came feebly off in this point as some well knowes , and so indeed he had need to plead that suffering is no good sign , seeing he and his Brethren could not suffer , no not so much as the Romish Priests , to their shame be it told , who were many of you in great confusion about that very thing of Swearing , some of you holding against it , and some writing for it , and suffering a while for refusing , and at last did swear , and so made your selves a scorn to your Enemies , and proved your selves to be in confusion , and treacherous to your own Principles and Consciences . 3. In that he chargeth that we suffer many times as evil doers , and not for the sake of Christ and Truth , we charge him to prove this in his next , or else silence shall be taken that he acknowledgeth himself to be a Lyar and Slanderer ; and as for our waiting an opportunity to make others to suffer , this is onely his envious surmise ; and for some threatning others , as he saith , and cursing them , having no better weapons ; this I account like the rest of his stories , not worth answering , though t is possible J. VV. judgeth of us by himself , as if we wanted Power to execute what our wills could do ; this I verily believe is the state of him and his Brethren , for we have Power enough according to the will of God , and out of his will desires no more Power , though J. VV. wickedly suggests as if we would be cruel like himself , but this is but his imaginations , and not worth heeding , for God hath made us long-suffering and patient towards all men . CHAP. XI . Concerning the word of God and the Scriptures , and the word and writings truly distinguished . NOw I passe over to his fifth Chapter , as finding little to oppose between the 192. page and the 205. excepting half a score of Lyes which I leave till J. W. and I meet , which I hope may be in a good season ; and his fifth Chapter contains , Concerning the Scriptures and the word of God , and he charges us that we deny the Doctrine of the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be the word of God , and uses reproachful language concerning it , and speaks of one laying the Bible upon the ground and setting his feet upon it , and we delight to abuse the Scriptures , and are filled with rage against the Word of God , and that we foam out disdain against the Scriptures , and then takes in hand to prove the Scriptures to be the VVord of God , &c. page 205. Answ. 1. Here is a grievous charge laid down and managed in manner as aforesaid , for it is utterly false that we use any reproachful language concerning the holy Scriptures , neither ever have I known any of us ever set his feet upon the Bible in contempt and abuse of the Scriptures , as he saith , though it is very true there was one Richard Stokes in the North of England that was then an Anabaptist , ( so called ) and so yet for ought I know , that did in contempt and scorn tread upon the Bible in the presence of many witnesses , so it may be J. W. mistakes one of his own friends and thinks he is one of ours , for it is not delightful in us to abuse the Scriptures , nor are we filled with rage against the Word of God , nor do we foam out disdain against the Scriptures , these things are utterly false . 2. This Testimony we have often given concerning the Scriptures , and here again I give it upon this occasion ; The Scriptures are writings in which are contained many words of God , and may be properly called the words of God declared by writing , and as they were given forth by the Spirit of God , and no whit altered in Translation , they are a perfect Testimony of God , and his works , of Christ , and his Salvation , and of the Experiences and Testimonies of the Servants and holy men of God , and also in the Scripture is contained many words of the Devil , and the words of wicked men , so that the Scriptures are a true Testimony ( as they were first given forth ) of all these things , and we believe that the Scriptures were spoken forth by the holy Spirit , as the holy men of God were moved thereunto , and whatsoever is written ought to be believed and received for Truth , and a true relation given by the Spirit of God ; but the Scriptures cannot properly be called the Word of God , for they are words and writings , and admits of alteration and change , and therefore cannot properly be called the word of God , but onely a Declaration of the Word , and of that Truth which lives and abides for ever , and which must be believed and practised for Salvation ; and the Scriptures do say that the Word of God was in the beginning , but the Scriptures began but to be written by Moses , which was many hundred of years since the beginning , and therefore the Scriptures cannot be the word of God which was in the beginning ; Again the Scriptures do say that the Word of God made the world , and lives , and abides for ever ; but the Bible , the Scriptures did not make the World , nor can abide for ever , but will passe away as we see daily Books wears away , though the Truth therein declared of shall abide for ever , and therefore the Scriptures are not the Word of God which must endure for ever ; and thus we do distinguish , and we would have all to do so , between the Book ( the writings ) which are most properly called Scripture , and that Truth , Salvation , Word of Life , and the things declared of in Scriptures , the one endures for ever , the other not , the one is the Word of God , the other a Testimony of it ; and thus we distinguish , and yet not denying the Truth and Life , and Salvation and Redemption , nor the Christ which the Scriptures speaks of , but fully acknowledging that they are infinite and everlasting , and the Scripture declare of these things but are not the things themselves ; neither do we deny to ascribe all lawful Dignity and Title and Reverence to the Scriptures , but yet we cannot account them what they are not , nor give that honour to them which God gives not , nor which he appointed them to receive , though further we do acknowledge there is no other Gospel , nor way of Life and Salvation , nor no other Christ for Redemption and Eternal Life , nor no other Truth for substance but what is declared of in the Bible , which we do account as I have said as it was given forth by the Spirit of God , to be a true Testimony of all these things ; this and such like Testimonies we have often given concerning the Scriptures , yet still acknowledged Christ Jesus to be the word of Eternal Life , he and no other , and yet this confession we make , not contrary unto or to oppose , but according unto the Scriptures , and our Testimonie concerning the Scriptures is so well known both by word and writing for these many years , that I need not here say much more in this case , onely that the Scriptures all along calls Christ the Word of God , and no where that I know of in the Scriptures doth it call it self the Word of God , but a Declaration and a Treatise , Luke 1. Acts 1. And whereas J. W. saith , Is not the Truth exprest in the Scriptures eternal and incorruptible ? and what lesse then an Almighty hand hath preserved that Book ? and this is devised deceitful Doctrine to teach all men to hearken to the Light within them , thereby to turn away their minds from the Scriptures ; And he mentions that Scripture the words of the Lord , and every word of God are pure , and the entrance of thy word gives Light , and my words shall not passe away , and whosoever shall be ashamed of my words , &c. page 208 , &c. Answ. To all this I answer , why is J. W. so blind as to bring this in opposition to us , as if he confuted us in something we held contrary to this , when as it is nothing so , for we say the same as these Scriptures testifie , that the Truth expressed in the Scriptures is eternal and incorruptible , yet the writings which are properly Scriptures will corrupt and change and alter , and we do know the hand of God hath been in preserving of that Book to this day , and our benefit by the Scriptures are not the least of others , as I might instance in divers particulars , and we confesse fully to the Truth of all these Scriptures cited by him , and there is not any one of them opposite to us in any thing that we hold ; but why doth he secretly here weave in his slander , as if we did direct People to the Light within them , thereby to turn their minds from the Doctrine of the Scriptures , which is utterly false , for we direct People to the Light of the Spirit of God within them , not contrary to , or to make void the Scriptures to them , but according to the Scriptures , and that they may come to the fulfilling of them , and witnesse the Truth wrought in them whereof they speak , and therefore his secret slander is turned out of doors ; and further he falls out in high tearms , that God will punish such severely as do speak against the Scriptures , and do disdain and reproach them , and that do add to or take from them , and against such as do vent their rage against the Scriptures , and tread them under their feet , as the Adversaries of Christ , the Preachers up of the Light within do , saith he , who are Blasphemers of God and his Truth , when they cast the Scriptures on the ground , and call the Scriptures lifeless , &c. page 212. Answer , These Threatnings and Judgements do not belong to us , as not being guilty of his charge , so let the judgement be to himself , for we are not guilty , but he guilty of wickedness in charging us so falsly , like as if he had given up himself to rail and accuse the innocent ; for be it known to J. W. we esteem as well and truly of the Scriptures as he doth ; And thus I count it a sufficient answer to deny his false Charges , and to turn back his own sentence to him again , God will punish him severely for his wickedness . CHAP. XII . Concerning the Infallible Teacher , and that it is the Spirit of God , and not the Scriptures . NOw I shall proceed to J. W. his Proofs , That the Scriptures are an Infallible Teacher of the Doctrine of Salvation , &c. To which I Answer , this is a false assertion ; for first the Scriptures as he hath confessed , are subject to change and alteration , and that which is so is not infallible , for that onely is infallible which admits of no change nor alteration ; but such are not the Scriptures ( the writings ) and therefore not infallible , though it is alwayes acknowledged the Truth and Way of Salvation declared in the Scriptures are Infallible . Secondly , This assertion seems absolutely to deny the Spirit of God and its Teachings , which is given in the new Covenant unto all that believe , for God hath promised , I will put my Spirit within them , and pour it upon them , and they shall need no man to teach them , but as that spirit teacheth them ; And the spirit was promised by Christ that it should be given to lead into all Truth , and be the Everlasting Comforter , and it is the spirit that quickeneth and gives Life , and Sanctifies and Teaches to do the Will of God , all this the Scriptures testifie , and not as if the Scriptures were the Teacher , the Comforter , the Leader , but the Scriptures say the spirit doth all this ; but J. W. has accounted the Scriptures to do all , and accounts not of the Spirit to do any thing , for he hath hardly mentioned it in this case , and thus his folly and weakness hath appeared ; in giving the Scriptures Authority above the spirit , and as it were dis-throning the spirit that gave forth the Scriptures , and exalting the Scriptures in its place ; but we say , that its the spirit that works all things in order to mans Salvation , God works in us to will and to do all good things by his spirit that he hath given us , according to the Scripture , and not contrary to it , for the spirit is Infallible which gave forth the Scriptures , but the Scripture is changeable in translation and interpretation , as we see by experience , and therefore not infallible ; And though J. W. say , First , The Scriptures do make mention of all Works of Righteousness , which ought to be observed by the sons of men . Secondly , And the Scriptures do most severely forbid all works of wickedness which ought not to be done . Thirdly , And the Scriptures declare of the Promise of Peace and Happiness which ought to be imbraced . Fourthly , And the Scriptures speaks of the punishment which God would inflict upon sinners : Those are four of his Reasons page 216. by whith he would prove the Scriptures to be the Infallible Teacher of Salvation . Answer , Though it be true that the Scriptures do declare of every work of Righteousness which ought to be done , and of works of unrighteousness which ought not to be done , and of the Promises of God which ought to be embraced ; yet it is the spirit of God that teaches men to perform and observe that Righteousness which ought to be done , and to deny that wickedness which ought not to be done , and to receive the Promises of God ; though I say , the Scriptures declares of these things , yet it is the spirit of God that gave forth the Scriptures that teacheth and leadeth into these things that the Scriptures speak of ; and it is that spirit that is the infallible Teacher , and the Scriptures are onely a declaration of the things which the spirit is infallibly to teach ; and : as for thy fourth Reason , though generally the punishment of sinners is declared in Scriptures , yet it were an easie thing to mention particular punishments for particular people upon particular occasions , which the Scriptures do not make mention of ; for I am of that mind , that some of his Fraternity are at this day under a punishment for their sin which the Scripture makes no particular mention of , and if he scruple it in his next return , J. W. shall have particular instance in our next reply ; so that this reason is partly true and partly false , also Deut. 28.61 . t is signified that there are Plagues and punishments for sinners which are not mentioned in the Book of the Law ; and as for thy 5 , 6 , 7 , and 8 , Reasons to prove the Scriptures are an infallible Teacher , all of them are much like the former , and the same answer in kind may be said , as thus , we acknowledge the Scriptures declares sufficiently for Truth and Righteousness , and against deceit and unrighteousness , and of the Promises of God , and threatnings for sin , &c. Yet still this proves not the Scriptures in themselves infallable to teach infallibly , but as I have said , it is onely the Spirit of God that is the infallable Teacher , into all that Truth which the Scriptures declares of , and by the spirit men receives power to be the Sons of God , and to do his Will , and not by the Scriptures ; and thus we give the Spirit of God its prerogative and priviledge , and the Scriptures also what belongs to them , but we dare not give that dignity to the Scriptures which belongs to the Spirit of God , thereby abridging the Spirit of God of what belongs to it , and setting up the scriptures in opposition to it , as J. W. hath clearly done for want of knowledge and understanding in the Mysteries of God : Again he saith , The Scriptures are very far in Authority and clearness before any spirit or light in any mortal man in the world , page 218. Whereby he hath clearly given more dignity and authority to the Scriptures , then he hath to the Spirit of God , and so hath set up the Scriptures above the Spirit , which is direct errour , if not Blasphemy , that he should say , any thing is far greater in Authority and clearness , then the Spirit of God which dwells in mortal man , even in his Saints ; and thus the result of J. W. his Reasons and Arguments about Scriptures , is a clear denyal of the Spirit of God , and setting the Scriptures above it ; furthermore he saith , VVhatsoever doth make manifest is Light , the Scriptures doth make manifest the Mystery of Salvation , therefore the Scriptures is Light ; Again he saith , That the Scriptures are the more sure word of Prophecy which Peter speaks of , which was as a Light which shined in a dark place , & the Commandements of the Lord is Pure , and the VVord is a Lamp unto the Feet ; Then he speaks of the powerful Operation of the Doctrine of the Scriptures upon the Hearts of such as believe , which doth convince and convert , and turn from darknesse to Light ; and how can their Doctrine be from the same inspiration which is against the Doctrine of the Scriptures ? page 219 , 220. 222. Answer , Here Joseph Wright hath jumbled some illiterate Logick , which may be ▪ proved false , as thus ; the Scriptures ( its true ) doth declare of the things that ought to be done and believed , and the things that ought not to be done , as to the general part of things ; Yet there are many particular Actions and things which the Scriptures do not make manifest , and we would have J. W. to leave a little room and work for the Spirit of God , and not thus utterly to reject it ; for the scripture saith , it is the Spirit that reveals the Things of God and the Mystery of Salvation , and not the scriptures , viz. the writings , and that sure word of Prophesie which Peter speaks of , that was as a Light shining a dark place , was something more sure then the very words which Christ spoke with his mouth to them , which were written by Matthew , and the light which shone as in a dark place , to which they were to take heed , was more sure to them then Christs words which were written and were scriptures ; and thus J. W. may see his mistake and perverting of scriptures , if he will be but sober and reasonable , and that the Commandement of the Lord is Pure , and the word is a Lamp , we do not deny , but gives as full witnesse of , as J. W. can do , and therefore he needs not cite these scriptures to oppose us , for it s thy malitious Spirit that opposeth us not the scriptures , for we acknowledge to the truth of these scriptures , by the Spirit which gave them forth , which is greater then the scriptures ; and as for the powerful operation of the Doctrine of the Scriptures , it is not of themselves that they do operate in any , but it is by the Spirit that gave them forth , which worketh in the Hearts of Believers , to comfort and refresh with the Love of God , and it is the spirit according to the scriptures that doth convince and convert , and not the scriptures without the Spirit , as J. W. would say ; and it was the Gospel that Paul Preached ; that turned them from darkness to Light , and not the writings which say , that the Gospel is the Power of God , and not the writings , and it is meer ignorance in J. W. to intimate that our Doctrine is against the Doctrine of the Scriptures , this I shall account amongst thy slanders , and it is not the least of them . And whereas thou flyest out high in high words against us , That we must consider and leave our inventions , else sin will lye at our doors , and our bloods will be upon our heads , &c. and there is no less then four lies in thy last page , but these words are to thy self and not unto us , for we are not the persons concerned , we follow not vain inventions , but we are saved out of our blood through Jesus Christ ; and for J. W. now to exhort us to repentance , when as in page 47. he hath given absolute judgement on us without limitation , That the mist of Darkness is reserved for ever for us ; This is a direct contradiction which shews what spirit he has been guided by in all his work ; And thus we have searched and examined J. W's whole work from the beginning to the end , and given an answer to the material parts thereof , saving that we have not mentioned many lies and slanders which we have passed over , and do reserve them till we come face to face , otherwise till our next reply ; and what we have written , we must commit to the judgement of the Spirit of God in all sober persons , who may for their own edification , compare his work and ours together , and truly weigh each of them in the ballance of equity , and to the spirit of found judgement , and to the Fear of the Lord all are committed and commended in the reading and considering and judging of these things . Last of all , for a final Conclusion for present , if it be supposed by J. W. that this is not a sufficient Answer to his Book , I do propound unto him this further , in order to the satisfaction of any sober persons , if any be doubtfull in this case ; That first both of us may agree to appoint a convenient time and place for a meeting to dispute it out face to face , that which yet remains in controversie between us . 2. This being done , that all his Friends and ours that are doubtfull or desirous of such a thing , may have knowledge of it . 3. That in such meeting no foul reflections , nor impertinences , nor bitternesse of Spirit be allowed on either part , but discretion and moderation . 4. I shall first take in hand to prove a very great number of Lyes , contradictions and falshoods in his Book . 5. Then I shall hear his Defence for himself , and his Objections against any thing in ours , and answer them , and after this manner shall be our proceedings , if we do meet ; It s true , times and seasons are unsuitable for such a meeting and work , yet rather then any Detriment should fall upon the Truth , or the cause of preaching the Light within be endangered to harm , I am willing to hazard the greatest adventure , hoping we may do such a thing if necessity require , in that Wisdom and Prudence as may not offend any ; This I shall leave as my farewell to my Antagonist at this time , and thus seal up the whole sum . E. B. THE END . ERRATA . IN the 6. page of the Preface line 5. for contra . read contrary , in the 7● page of the Preface line 27. for this work read his work , in the 2. page of the book line 9. read we vindicate , l. 14. read and his pleading against free-grace to all confuted , p. 3. l. 29. for own while r. one while , p. 6. l. 31. for strife r. self , p. 17. l. 29. for arising which r. arising with , p. 27. l. 9. for then r. their , p. 31. l. 13. r , Ignorant of it , p. 48. l. 22. for receive r. reverence , p. 50. l. 11. r. tell Lyes . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A71239-e1350 * Witnesse Jer. Ives , who openly swore to get himself out of prison after he had written against swearing , for which some of them called Quakers openly witnessed against him ; also divers others of the Baptists did swear for fear of suffering , as also the said Jer. Ives and John Tombs , and Hen Den , ( who have long been Teachers ) did divulge their deceitful stuff in their books for swearing , as those that sought to betray the simplicity of God in others of their brethren , who were more conscientious then themselves , who could not with a safe Conscience swear , though some through the deceit of their Teachers were diverted from the Truth in their own consciences . 
A65870	----	Judgment fixed upon the accuser of our brethren and the real Christian-Quaker vindicated from the persecuting outrage of apostate informers chiefly from W. Rogers, F. Bugg, T. Crisp, John Pennyman and Jeffery Bullock ... / by that contemned servant of Christ George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1682 Approx. 512 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 189 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65870 Wing W1937 ESTC R34747 14582034 ocm 14582034 102665 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65870) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 102665) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1081:6) Judgment fixed upon the accuser of our brethren and the real Christian-Quaker vindicated from the persecuting outrage of apostate informers chiefly from W. Rogers, F. Bugg, T. Crisp, John Pennyman and Jeffery Bullock ... / by that contemned servant of Christ George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [8], 366 p. Printed and sold by Andrew Sowle ..., London : 1682. Imperfect: pages stained. Reproduction of original in the Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-01 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-02 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2005-07 SPi Global Rekeyed and resubmitted 2005-08 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2005-08 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Iudgment fixed UPON THE Accuser of our Brethren , AND THE Real Christian-Quaker VINDICATED From the Persecuting OUTRAGE of Apostate Informers ; Chiefly from W. Rogers , F. Bugg , T. Crisp , John Pennyman and Jeffery Bullock , their Malicious , Confused and Unjust Opposition and Imputation of Apostacy , Imposition , Popery , &c. in their abusive Books and Pamphlets herein specified . Beginning with W. R's Seventh Part. By that Contemned Servant of Christ , George Whitehead . Psal. 109.3 . They compassed me about with words of Hatred , &c. vers . 4. For my Love they are my Adversaries , but I give my self unto Prayer . Jude v. 13 . Raging Waves of the Sea , foaming out their own Shame , &c. London , Printed and Sold by Andrew Sowle at the Crooked-Billet in Holloway-Lane , near Shoreditch , 1682. An Introductory Epistle . To my beloved and tender-hearted Friends , called Quakers , who are lovers of Peace and Unity in our Lord Jesus Christ ; Greeting in the holy Spirit of Life . IF I did not feel the Lord my God laying a real necessity upon me to be publickly concerned in this Controversie ( and that for the sake of simple Hearts and poor Lambs , to warn them against such grievous Wolves as seek to prey upon them , rend and tear them ; and that the weak of the Flock may not be hurt , scattered or perverted by those that speak perverse things , to draw Disciples after them ) I would chuse rather to sit down mute , and silently bear the Revilings , Outrage and fierce Despisings of crooked Spirits , than spend time in Controversie with them or against them . But the Lord has laied the necessity , and knows best my Conscientious concern , and for what end , and to what effect , and for whose sakes . And in discharging my Duty , I neither consult Events , nor fear Effects , but leave all to God ; for I feel his divine Power and Counsel ; In whose Name , and in the Patience , Forbearance , Long-suffering and Bowels of our Lord Jesus Christ , my Soul hath had a share in deep Travail and Exercise ( with many more of his faithful Servants , my Brethren ) for a quiet Composure of this Breach ; 1st , With Respect to Truth 's Reputation : 2dly , With respect to that Compassion that 's to be had on some , where a difference ought to be made for the regaining and delivering them who have been at unawares taken captive by the Enemy . I have no self-Interest nor end , but the Churches Peace and the Salvation of Souls , and Prosperity of the Lord's Work in the Earth . God doth bear me Record , I have not been awanting in Christian Endeavours , private and friendly , with divers principally concerned in this Opposite , Rending , Self-Separating Spirit . Christian Patience and Forbearance have not been awanting in the Exercise of my Spirit and Testimony . But when all our Christian Endeavours on these accounts have been rejected by some Conceited , Exalted , Pufft up Luciferian Spirits , Despisers and Mockers , that have of late time lusted to be Contentious , and at open War and Defiance against many of the faithful Ministers and Servants of our Lord Jesus Christ , who have kept their Garments and Stations in Truth and Uprightness , and whom they have most grosly abused in Print in their Books and Pamphlets : On this extream Occasion and Offence given against the Truth and Gods Heritage , I find my Spirit stirred and moved within me by and in the same Long-suffering tender Spirit and Power of Christ Jesus my Lord , ( saying , Why should God's Heritage lie under their publick Lyes and Defamations , without open Rebuke ? ) and to withstand , oppose , weaken and repel these their Wicked Attempts and Insolent Abuses , and to vindicate the peaceable Christian People called Quakers , in their blessed Society , Order and Church-Discipline , &c. from the cruel Envy , Scorn , Outrage , Madness and Confusions of certain Persons turned Apostate Informers , Treacherous Hypocrites , False Brethren , and Deceitful Workers , Betraying Judases , Devils Incarnate ( for Christ called Judas a Devil ) who having lost their First Love to Truth , and gone out from us , are become Degenerate , without Natural Affection , Dogs that are without , Wolves , and Raging Waves of the Sea , that foam out their own Shame ; whom the strength of Truth is turned against in Judgment , and God in ten Thousand of his Saints is coming to execute Judgment upon them , as the Patience of Christ in his Saints comes to be fulfilled towards them , and their Iniquity ripened for open Discovery and Condemnation , as they have not spared publickly to defame the Innocent . [ But they that are at unawares betrayed , deceived or only mistaken , ( and not willful & contentious ) are to be had Compassion of , and distinguished from the other . ] And in Righteous Judgment will the great Judge of all decide the Controversie with all them who would be counted true Jews and are not , Christian-Quakers , and are not , but of the Synagogue of Satan and Antichrist ; whose Works the Day of Christ our Lord will yet more clearly declare and fully manifest , and the Day and Time hastens , blessed are they that watch , and keep their Garments , that their Nakedness appear not , Amen . Ingenuous Reader , Note , that the Contents of the ensuing Treatise are mostly placed before each Chapter , respectively in several Sections , directing to the Passages therein . And also please to take notice , That William Rogers , ( who is first concerned in this Treatise ) is not ignorant what great Labour and Pains I have taken with him more privately , to inform his Vnderstanding and allay his Heat , by divers large Answers in Manuscript , ( unto his Gain-saying , Accusing and Reviling Letters and Papers ) amounting to much more than what 's herein contained in Answer to his seventh Part of his Christian-Quaker ; but instead of any fair ingenuous Reply , or acknowledgment of the Truth from him , he hath slighted me and my Christian-Labours and Endeavours , sometimes casting Dirt upon me , yet giving the GO-BY to the greater part of my Writings , seeming rather desirous to be some-body in Print against us , as one affecting Popularity ( though in a perverse Work ) the more publickly to manifest his Revengeful Spirit , in Abusing , Scandalizing and casting undeserved ODIUMS upon those whom his Spight and Malice is most bent against ; and I expect no better Treatment from him , and such exalted Spirits ; I expect the Hatred of Scorners for rebuking them , and for this my Christian Conscientious Labour . Howbeit , I doubt not but this shall have its Effect , for the clear Information and Advantage of many simple honest Hearts . And I can say , Surely my Judgment is with the Lord , and my Reward is with my God , Isa. 49.4 . Several Testimonies and Answers are already extant in Print against William Rogers's wicked Books , as by Thomas Ellwood ( his ANTIDOTE ) and divers others . Surely it would be more reputable for him to desist and lay aside his daring Confidence and evil Attempts against the Servants of Christ , and ingenuously and humbly submit to the Truth ; for our God ( n● doubt ) will finally and signally rebuke that Rebellious , Exalted Spirit of Strife and Contention . To him who is the Righteous Judge of all I freely commit my Cause ( with my Friends ) in this Concern , for 't is his own . And I do tenderly refer the spreading of this Treatise to the Discretion of faithful Friends , where they shall see a Necessity and Service for the Truth . I not designing nor desiring this may be otherwise or farther exposed to the view of the World , but where any of these Adversaries or their Party have given ( or do give ) occasion by spreading theirs ; as there are some busie Agents among them , that neither regard the Fear of God therein , nor the Reputation of his Truth or People , in spreading their defaming Books and Pamphlets : for which Treacherous Injurious Work , I am assured the Righteous Judge of all will Reckon with both the Authors and Spreaders thereof . To each of whom this Scripture appears justly applicable , viz. Jer. 2.19 . Thine own Wickedness shall Correct thee , and thy Back-sliding shall Reprove thee ; Know therefore and see that it is an Evil thing and bitter , that thou hast 6forsaken the Lord thy God , and that my fear is not in thee , saith the Lord God of Hosts . I wish they may yet find a place of Repentance and Forgiveness , before the Judgment be executed which hangs over their Heads . G. W. Judgment fixed upon the Accuser of our Brethren CHAPTER I § . 1. W. R's Hue-and-C●y 〈…〉 emp●y Flourish . § . 2. His 〈…〉 § . 3. He i● proved guilty of 〈…〉 the People called Quakers 〈…〉 § . 4. His Concessions to Truth do 〈…〉 him conscientious in his writing , nor 〈…〉 man guilty of Blasphemy . § . 5. His slighting and insulting way of writing , his own abasement . § . 6. His writing in 's own Justification to clear himself from giving Judgment on Reports and Jealousies , call'd in question , and prov'd untrue by divers Instances . § . 7. His Reflection on G. F. A. P. and my self about the Barbadoes Subscription , ( which we had denyed ) proved Malicious and Vnjust . § . 8. His comparison between some of our Friends and Pope Leo the tenth ; shewing more favour to the Pope than to Friends , &c. § . 9. His rendring R. R. ( and the Pen-man ) like Papists , for quoting some of their Authors , brings great Reflection & Contradiction on himself . § . 10. He upbraids us often with the words [ Learn'd Friend ] yet useth the same word Learned to a Friend . § . 11. His false Suggestion and Jealousie of great Idolatry , touching G. F. and his sordid abuse of John Blaikling , and foul Vntruth and Infamy therein manifest . § . 12. His Charge against J. B. about ascribing eternal Honour , and Perversion of his Intention ; and against G. F. about Infallibility , distinguished . § . 13. His denying the sence of his and party 's own words for a select Company of Elders and Deacons , to order in Church Affairs . § . 14. His pretence for amicable Conference , Hypocritical : His charge of meer Hypocrisie and Deceit , and the Fruits of manifest Injustice , abusive and unjust . § . 1. AS concerning William Rogers's Hue-and-Cry after the Name of the Pen-man of a Treatise entituled , The Accuser of our Brethren cast down ; and that this Hue-and-Cry is in pursuance of his Name , because not subscribed thereunto , page 1. How Insincerely and Fallaciously does he herein begin with a silly Boast , an empty Flourish and Vapour , containing also an unjust Reflection , compared with his false Scoff , ( pag. 21. ) i. e. That the Pen-man was ashamed that his Name should be publish'd with the great Bull , entituled , The Accuser , &c. Which is a falshood also . And why an Hue-and-Cry after his Name ? He is not fled into Obscurity , nor any Criminal , Treasonable or Fellonious Person in any sense , that an Hue-and-Cry need to be divulg'd in Print after his Name . Nor has he either deny'd or conceal'd his concern in that Book which W. R. falsly terms The great Bull , when modestly asked . But why is W. R. so very ignorant of his Name , that he must needs make the noise of an Hue-and-Cry after it ? when but in pag. 25. he pretends a Description of the Person , and of his Habit , to wit , As being one that hath forgotten his low and mean Estate , and arrived to a Beautiful City-dress , &c. And this is not all ; but in pag. 34. he queries about the Pen-man , as having been that no mean Person ( viz. of our Society ) that hath solicited the Powers under which we have peaceably lived , &c. Could he so positively describe the Pen-man's dress and condition , and yet not find out his Name without an Hue-and-Cry in Print after it ? What empty Flourishes does this Person dress himself in ? But what Beautiful City-Dress is that he reflects upon the Pen-man , that becomes not Humility , or his Call to the work of the Ministry , or his soliciting the Powers on behalf of suffering Friends ? And wherein is he condemnable of Excess in that case of his Habit or Dress ? And wherein does he exceed all W. R's Brethren , even them he has counted Honourable ? I would have him speak out plainly in this matter , and not to mutter and smite in the dark . § . 2. He says , He will not conclude the Pen-man to be a Vagrant , a Night-Bird , a Wanderer , &c. because his Name is not to his work , pag. 1. And what , if he 'l not thence conclude him such an one , what better Character does he give him , both by the Instance and comparing his or his Brethren's Actions to the ugly Vizzard of a Night-walker ? pag. 3. Thus he detracts and reviles . § . 3. He affirms it A notorious Vntruth , that his Book contains Reproach against the People called Quakers in general ; and that the Pen-man quotes not a word to shew it so , pag. 2. But his Affirmation we may rather justly conclude a notorious Untruth . For in his Preface , p 6. to the first part of his ( falsly stiled ) Christian-Quaker , he thus reflects upon the People called Quakers ( which was quoted by us ) viz. These kinds of Declarations frequently publisht amongst the aforesaid People , viz. Let 's exclude the Wisdom , and have an Eye to the Brethren , &c. I ▪ cannot but be full of Jealousie , that these things have a tendency to insinuate Submission without Conviction , and nurture up Ignorance instead of Wisdom , as much as ever was , where this Maxim , to wit , Ignorance is the Mother of Devotion , is , &c. By all which 't is apparent , that his Book contains unjust Reproach upon the People call'd Quakers in general , as being under such a Popish blind Ministry . For what means [ the aforesaid People ] but the People called Quakers in general ? See now , that which he calls a notorious Untruth , is proved apparently true from his own Reflection on the People called Quakers , and therefore he himself thereby proved in the notorious Untruth . Was it not a Reflection upon the Church of Thyatira to suffer the woman Jezabel to teach and seduce , & c ? And what better doth his Reflection on the said People render them ? § . 4. He says , He finds what 's cited out of his Book of above Eighty Sheets , is less than Two , and one considerable part thereof acknowledged to be Concessions to the Truth , so that the Light sometimes interposeth . But then he judges this Inconsistent with that sense , viz. That his way of writing is void of Conscience , Reason and Religion . From whence he infers upon the Pen-man ( as he calls him ) Is it not hence plain , that such a sense renders those very things acknowledged to be interposed from the Light it self , to be void of Conscience , Reason and Religion ? And then crys out at an hideous rate , as if he had wholly knock'd down his Respondent ; O notorious Blasphemy ! — The Pen-man acted in the Dark , shown himself unworthy of the name of a Man — May without abuse be numbred amongst such sort of Beasts at Ephesus — Vnreasonable men — I have already prov'd the Pen-man Vnreasonable and Blasphemous ; yet he may be termed a man , though a very Wicked one , &c. pag. 2 , 3. with more Aggravations . This is the Person that complains of a great Bull against him ; but observe his furious Bull here , and what a wild one ! and how outragiously mad and false in his Inference ! What 's the matter with him on which he is so furious ? It is that his way of writing is deemed void of Conscience , Reason , Religion , &c. because it has been confest , That the Light sometimes interposeth and makes him concede to Truth . But does it hence follow , that these very things interposed by the Light , are esteemed void of Reason or Religion in themselves ? No such matter : The major part of this work appears such , and he is measured by the major part thereof . A man may justly be adjudged a Wicked Person , when the greatest part of his life is such , though he may both speak and act some right things , when the Light comes over him , and convicts him , as Balaam did , and some of the wicked Kings of Israel , with many others : Yea , and the Devil himself , though a Lyar from the beginning , yet is made to grant and speak some Truths , when over-powered , though contrary to his Nature . Besides , we do not believe our Adversary to be Conscientious in what the Light interposeth through him , any more than that Balaam was a good man , when his heart was evil : Nor can the Devil 's confessing to Truth at any time render him a good Devil , nor of tender Conscience , his Nature being contrary to Truth and Goodness . § . 5. But there lies another great Reflection in the case upon W. R. in his charging the Pen-man ( suppose my self or any other of our second day's Meeting ) with Notorious Blasphemy , acting in the dark , being unworthy the name of a Man , numbering him among the Beasts at Ephesus , with whom Paul fought ; having already proved him Vnreasonable and Blasphemous , as boastingly and falsly he pretends ; comparing this also with what he saith of the said Treatise entituled , The Accuser of our Brethren cast down , viz. 'T is with me to take a little notice thereof ; I say again , a little notice , that so the Reader may not think me so Impertinent as to trouble the Press with so great a Volumn , as a full Answer to every Impertinency , &c. Thus W. R. p. 14. chap. 2. See now , at what a Villifying and Insulting rate this man writes , and how Wicked and Despicable he has rendred the Pen-man , ( as his term is . ) Now [ W. R. ] supposing thou takest my self , or any other of my Brethren to be the Person thou chiefly smites at , how consistent art thou in thy work to spend so much Time , Labour and Cost in writing and printing against such a mean , inconsiderable and undeserving Person , in thy account , as unworthy the Name of a Man , but rather to be numbred among unreasonable Beasts ? One would think it should be far beneath a Person of thy Hight , Rank and Quality , as thy flourishing Vaunts bespeak thee , thus to abase thy self , as to spend so much time and cost upon such an Inferior , Irrational and Inconsiderable Person in thy high Thoughts . But art not thou a great Defamer and Opposer in thy said Charge of Notorious Blasphemy , and of being unworthy the Name of a Man , & c ? Is this thy Christianity ? Who will believe thee , thinkest thou , that are not of thy own Party ? And seeing thou art pleased to signifie what little notice 't is with thee to take of our Treatise , we cannot but take notice of thy lofty and slighty way of writing . However , we have no reason to take this thy little Notice for an Answer ; for thou hast collected and replied to so little of the matter , and hast so much given the GO-BY to the principal and greatest part of our said Treatise , as one that has found out the craft of Evasion , that 't is a little notice indeed thou hast taken , and thy work deserves but little notice to be taken of by others , unless to evince thy Envy and its Falshood , &c. Thy pretence of Vnreasonableness in thy Respondent , will not hide thy Loftiness and Contempt , nor excuse thy shifting Evasions from those things that are most material and weighty upon thee ; which every Ingenuous Reader may easily perceive , in comparing our said Treatise against the Accuser of the Brethren , and thy Seventh Part against ours together . § . 6. Thou writes much in thy own Justification , and to clear thy self of giving judgment on Reports and Jealousies , though frequent in thy great Book : Thou on thy own behalf sayst , I can in Truth delare , that I have not at any time positively asserted any thing , but what I either know , or have had sufficient proof , as may render my Pen blameless therein , pag. 3. Upon which I would seriously ask thee , What sufficient proof hast thou that that was E. Burrough's Epistle , which thou hast cited for his Epistle , and positively asserted it two or three times to be E. B's Epistle in thy first part of the Christian-Quaker ( falsly so called ? ) which I and many more do not believe it to be E. B's for divers causes ; having seen John Parrots Name only to a Transcript of it in a Persons Hand , writing , i. e. J. Batho's , that was for a time an Admirer of J. P. How durst thou be so positive in asserting it to be E. B's ? I dare Challenge thee to produce it under E. B.'s own hand , to any of us that knew his hand , if thou tookest it not up upon an Implicit belief , trust and report . As we can prove , thou hast written many things from thy own Jealousies and Reports , only with this provision in some other things , If Reports be true , &c. to save thee from the censure of drawing a positive Conclusion ; and then what weight or credit does this add to much of thy Work ? And I would know , what sufficient proof thou hast of thy Story , That a Friend of known credit did declare , that twelve pence was paid in London , on demand of so much for a Certificate , in order to the Accomplishment of his Marriage , which otherwise might have been obstructed , p. 5. I pray thee produce thy Author and Informer for this Story , and what Friend of known Credit did so declare ? for 't is not credited by many . However , thou art positive in it , by the following words , viz. This being done under the form of Government contended for , &c. Which I am sure is a positive Lye ; for we have no such Action under the form of Government contended for among us , as to obstruct any Marriage for Non-payment of twelve Pence for a Certificate . Such practice is so far from relating to Church Government among us , that 't was never own'd by us , as to obstruct any Marriage on that account . And what positive Proof hast thou , That the Manuscript of the Primmer , subscribed by G. F. and E. H. was sold for thirty Pound ? Enquiry has been made about this Accusation , and 't is positively deny'd by the Person concerned ; though these Stories thou hast instanced as tokens of Apostacy and Innovation , p. 5. And what if E. H. was a Clark for his yearly Salary , does that hinder his Credit in his signing our said Treatise on behalf of our Meeting ? Or was his yearly Salary to extend to pay for all the many Certificates relating to Marriages , and the Expences thereupon , who many times was known to be deprived of his natural Rest , in writing to serve Truth and Friends ? And was 't not lawful for him to have a Livelihood for his great pains in Truth 's service , who lost his place and livelihood for Truth , and ended his dayes in Peace ? One would think , that W. R. should be ashamed to asperce or cloud his Reputation after his Death . § . 7. His Reflection upon the Barbadoes Mee●ers ( as he calls them ) about a Subscription , and upon G. F. my self , ( and consequently on A. P. who also was concerned with us ) as seeming to sew Pillows under their Armholes , p. 4. appears Malicious , as well as Unjust , being a Subscription from the first exploded by us , and since seen in its defects , and condemned by themselves on our Christian Advice and real Dislike shewn them in our Epistle , which W. R. is so partial and unjust , as to omit the words containing our Judgment and Dislike of it . Hath not he and Francis Bugg and Tho. Crisp herein exactly resembled the Devil , the old Accuser of the Brethren , in accusing the Innocent , and charging Persons after Repentance , with that which they have repented of , which is Satan's unjust Prosecution ? And W. R. unjustly also lays hold of these friendly and tender Expressions , wherein we shewed regard to Friendship , and answered that which was tender and good in them : For instead of shewing himself impartial and just , he minces and clouds the matter on our parts , only telling the Reader , We seem to dislike the latter part thereof — And in other parts , seem to dislike the wording thereof , p. 4 , & 28. But is not so honest as to give the Reader a particular Citation and Notice of our real judgment in our own words in that case . As in dislike of their opposing the Judgment of the Spirit of God in the Meetings to any particular Measure . We plainly signified , That this would be the way to bring them all from the measure of the Spirit in their own parti●●lars — 〈…〉 all must be left to the universal Spirit in their own measures thereof — Now this would make the Belief , which is in the Light , and the measure of the Spirit in their own particulars , not one with the universal Spirit , &c. The universal Spirit of God has unity with the least measure now , as it was in the Apostles days , who kept every one to their own measure ; which was both the great Rule and Line of the New Creature in the Believers and Saints then . And in dislike of their subscription , we signified , That all are to give up to the Universal Spirit of God in their own particulars , in which spirit they have unity and fellowship , without outward subscription — And further , Now as for your Subscription to an outward Tye , be above such things . Now let the serious and impartial judge ; Is not here a manifest Dislike shown , and Judgment given ? And therefore the greater Injustice in our Adversary to cite the Paper from Barbadoes , either to prove us guilty of Aiming at Dominion and Lordship over Faith , Conscience and Property , pag. 4. or that the said Paper is one part of the fruits of the pretended establisht Government , as he most falsly saith , p. 27. And the Lordship over Estates and Consciences , he infers thence . He would deceitfully insinuate and charge upon us sewing Pillows under their Armholes , calling them dear Friends , with other tender Expressions ; which when he has cited , without the words containing our Judgment , as to Fact , he then says , THIS shews no dislike to the said Paper . Which is a very deceitful and unjust way of writing in Controversie : I would not deal thus by the worst Adversary in the World , to entitle him to that which he has disowned , and to leave out the words of Dislike and Judgment on the Mistake or Error so disown'd , and to pick and take up those other words which are tender , relating to the Persons , and not to the Fact ; and then to cry , This shews no dislike thereof , &c. What if THIS shews it not , when enough besides shews it ? But is it indeed a Crime to call any dear Friends , who do commit an Error or Mistake ? No sure , that will not hold . Did not Paul call the Corinthians , DEARLY BELOVED , 1 Cor 10.14 . ( see James 1.16 . compar'd with cap. 5. ) and yet some among them did Err , were in Divisions , &c. 1 Cor. 3. And did he not call the Galatians BRETHREN ? Gal. 6.18 . yet charges them with being Foolish . Were not the seven Churches of Asia commended in many things , when yet there were a few things against divers of them ? Rev 2 & 3 chapters . O Dis-ingenious Person , ( W.R. ) I am ashamed of thy Partial , Unconscionable & Unjust dealing ! Is this thy best way to prove us guilty of aiming at Dominion and Lordship over Faith , Estates and Consciences ? How miserably comest thou off in thy Evil Attempts ! § . 8. That We have given occasion to be rendred in some things as bad as Papists ( or as having a Papistical Countenance , p. 5. ) is a notorious Slander : And that in some other things we have given occasion to be rendred MUCH WORSE in our Practices and Treatments , than the very Papists themselves , ( p. 6. ) is also a foul Reproach . And his excusing Pope Leo his Bull against Martin Luther , rather than our Friends , is no Proof , but rather shews himself more on the Popes side than on our Friends , having spoken more for Pope Leo the tenth than our Friends , † on the instance he gives , to wit , That in the Popes Bull forty two Articles of Doctrine , held by the said Martin , were mentioned , and declar'd Erronious ; by which the World was notified of the reputed Crimes laid to his Charge . But in the Papers subscribed by Charles Marshall & Sixty five more , against J. W. and J. S. nothing that may properly be termed particular matter of Fact , or Erronious Doctrine is therein laid down , unless their general words now following may be termed such , to wit , That they have Evil Designs , despise Heavenly Dignities , promote false Iealousies , set up a kind of a standard of Separation , pag. 6. And is not this matter of Fact , to set up a standard of Separation ? Where then is his Comparison between Pope Leo the tenth , and us ? And how were the Pope's proceedings in that respect , far more just than our Friends ? ( as he signifies ) p. 6. See what Favour and Charity he has for the Pope , more than for our Friends . The causing or making Divisions and Separations in the Apostles days was then such matter of Fact , as that they were to be marked and avoided that did so ; though our Adversary does not own this to be properly termed particular matter of Fact laid down , when plainly mentioned in writing . Thus I have considered him on his own terms , and taken notice how he justifies the Pope's proceedings , as far more just than our Friends , whilst he would be reckoned against Popery . § . 9. That we would not be rendred like Papists , is true ; but that the Pen-man seems to marr it all again ( in refering the Reader to a short Tract , writ by our Friend R. Richardson ) is false : And though both Heathenish , Papistical and Protestant Authors of divers sorts ( as he saith ) are quoted in the said Tract ; 't is no reasonable Inference , that therefore R. R. is like a Papist , or like all those he quotes , unless W. R. would like it well to be so reflected upon ( Argumentum ad hominem ) as resembling a Papist in his quoting Pope Leo's Bull against Martin Luther , as having some more pretended ground whereon to place a Judgment , and as far more just in his proceedings than C. M. and sixty five Friends more . As also in his quoting the Parliament of Papists at Paris , p. 31. Does not this then by his own reflection , render him more like to a Papist than a strict Quaker ? Whilst he 'l needs have R. R. &c. like Papists for quoting Heathenish , Papistical or Protestant Authors ; yet he himself quoting Pope Leo's Bull against M. Luther , and the said Parliament of Papists against our Friends : Let him wind himself out from a Self-condemnation in this , and other points of like nature , if he can . § . 10. He seems much to upbraid us with the words , Learned Friend R. R. he throws them over and over upon the Pen-man : he often twits us with them , and yet but in his 8th page he tells us of the Memory of the Learned Samuell Fisher. See how the man makes work to his own Confutation . Though our words in the Copy were Learned in the Truth ; how the words [ in the Truth ] were left out , I know not . And yet a Person being Learned in any respect , it can be no sin to say , He is Learned ; whilst 't is not to admire outward Learning or Acquirement above its place ; which I am sure was not intended on our parts . § . 11. Of our saying , That it is at least suspected for a great Slander , viz. That some do look upon G. F. as that Prophet , whom the Lord by Moses prophesied , he would raise up : Aad that he is not ignorant , that such there are , &c. Our Adversary in his inference has perverted the words from [ at least suspected ] to [ only suspected , and bear suspicion ] when as [ at least suspected ] implies more than a bear Suspicion : And therefore his supposition thereupon ( and his Jealousie ) That the secret Reason was , that on Conference with G. F. he could not in Truth deny the same ; And that he will not deny it , p. 9 , 10. This is a Presumptious Imagination : for I affirm , G F. does deny the same , in reference to himself , as a particular Man or Person , whose days and years are limited ; only the Truth of the Immortal Seed , Christ in him , ( as he is in every true Believer , Male and Female ) he stands to maintain , against all Opposers , and persecuting Gain-sayers and Apostates . And therefore his Jealousie , That at length this Controversie , as mannaged , &c. will occasion the discovery of great Idolatry , pag. 10. shews , that he suggests false things still upon Jealousie , to render G. F. &c Odious and Obnoxious . That the Pen-man offers not a word to prove him ●uilty of sordid and foul Abuse against John Blaikling , p. 10. is a sordid & foul Untruth ; see our Treatise against the Accuser of our Brethren , pag. 246. where we offer what he says against J. B. and others , Writing or Signing any thing , right or wrong , and comparing him to a Parasite , to an Earthly Prince : Here 's more than one word offered to prove W. R's foul Abuse against J. B. &c. who to add to his Abuse , now saith , J. B. has acted the part of a Sycophantizing Parasite in writing touching G. F. And what 's this but to render him a meer Tale-bearer and Flatterer , or an Informing Flatterer for his own Ends and Advantage ? This still appears sordid and abusive , thus infamously to brand any Friend or Person Conscientious towards God. § . 12. As for his ascribing Eternal Honour either to G. F's Life , or to him or his Soul , as joyned to the Spotless Life ; wherein J. B. can mean no other than the Life of Christ Jesus in him , I do not understand that this can prove him a Sycophantizing Parasite . For that Christ is our Life , the Life of every true Believer , is plain ; that Eternal Honour belongs to him , is not disputed . In the next place , He that Honours me , saith the Lord , him will I Honour . The Question is , Whether this Honour is not Eternal , ( a parte post ) that is , Everlasting to the Souls of the Righteous , whom God never forsakes ? Then how can any such ever loose that Honour that God gives ? And does our Adversary believe , that nothing may be said to be Eternal , that had a beginning , as to Man ? Had not Eternal Salvation and Eternal Redemption a beginning , as to the Creature , yet Eternal ? But W. R. notes in the Margent , That Eternal Honour is due to none but God , who alone , and not the words of Mortal Man , is able to nourish the Soul which is Immortal : And all this to confute John Blaikling . Wherein he greatly perverts J. B's Intention , and misrepresents his words ; for he spoke of the dropping of his tender words in the Lords Love ; and W. R. tells of the words of mortal man. When the Apostle said , Hitherto I have fed you with Milk , and not with strong Meat ; Was this a Soul's feeding or nourishing , yea or nay ? And was the Apostle's preaching the Gospel in a living Ministry only the words of mortal mam ? No sure : For our Gospel came not unto you in word only , but in Spirit and in Power . His charge against G.F. that he hath described himself one unto whom Infallible Judgment hath been committed in all things , is denyed by G. F. though he owns the Judgment committed to him of God in matters of Salvation and things Spiritual , to be Infallible . § . 13. His Marginal Note appears manifestly untrue , viz. That he has not written one word to shew that such a sense is his sense , to wit , That he and some others of his party seem to be only for a select company of Elders and Deacons to order in Church Affairs about the Poor , Marriages , &c. p. 11. What then means his exclaiming so much against our Meetings about Church Affairs , as being an uncertain number of uncertain qualified Persons ? and his Brethrens Paper of Separation in Westmerland , quoted by him , plainly limiting to Chosen men , Chosen , Imployed and Authorized by the Churches ? see our said Treatise , pag 119 , 120. Now if his sense was not for a select company , then he and his Brethren Subscribers of the said Paper , are of contrary senses . But then how does he consist therein with himself , in his charging us with Vsurpation , and upbraiding us , p. 19. with such a form of Church-Government , as hath admitted of no rightful Succession or Constitution by Election , & c ? What Foundation or Certainty can we find in this mans writing ? One while he is comparing us with the Pope , another while he charges us with Vsurpation , for want of rightful Succession or Constitution of any Supream Person or Persons , pag. 19. This is the man that would seem to oppose Popery so much , whilst he is bringing a Popish plea of Succession against us . But this is like much of his Work : I wish he were better composed . § . 14. He pretends greatly to be for an Amicable Conference , p. 12. whilst he is so far from Amity , that he has appeared an open Enemy , abusing and reviling us in Print And what , if his Letter was not read publickly at our yearly Meeting , at the time of its being delivered ? What reason had Friends to interrupt their publick and weighty concerns of Truth with the then reading of an Adversary's letter ? especially seeing divers of us took care to answer him therein so soon as the Meeting was over ; and were not wanting afterward to give him a Meeting thereupon . His charging us with a piece of meer Hypocrisie and Deceit for pretending to Amicable Conference , is a sordid Abuse to my knowledge : For many of us have not been awanting in that case , but have been ready to Amicable Conference , before W. R. and some of Party with him , turned open Adversaries , Gain-sayers and Enemies to us , whose Enmity has made them , ( especially him ) uncapable of Amicable Conference . And he may be ashamed of his pretended seasonable Hue and Cry after the Name of the Pen-man ; his Hue and Cry shews his own Complexion and Image not to be innocent . And his Charge of the Fruits of manifest Injustice , that his Letter was not read in our yearly Assembly , being ( he says ) a Letter from a Friend , especially when not Excommunicated . This is unjust and untrue in the first place , and shews an imperious , Lordly , Exalted Spirit , thus to charge us with manifest Injustice : And why so ? but because we did not serve his turn , we did not observe his time and manner in reading his Letter , when and where he would have had us : We did not lay all the weighty Affairs of Friends and Truth aside presently to read William Rogers's Letter ; we did not gratifie his Irregular interposing ; and therefore we must now be censured in Print , charg'd with Irregularity , Answering without order of the Meeting , Lordship and slavish Submission , fruits of manifest Injustice , &c. He seems very hot on this occasion , and a Person very strict and zealous for Regularity and Order of the Meeting , when he thinks it may serve his own turn : But at other times he hugely exclaims against Outward Vniformity , Orders , outward Rules , Prescriptions , Directions , Imposition , &c. But now it seems , it is against such as are not of his own setting up or imposing . And yet he most highly justifies whatever he has written ; which we either pretend to answer , or to shew dissatisfaction in , as remaining undetected , and in no respect unbecoming a Christian Pen , p. 14. We have only his own Self-commendation for this ; wherein his Self-confidence and wilful Blindness is to be wondered at . CHAP. II. § . 1. W. R. questions Ellis Hookes's Credit , and grosly abuseth our Meeting in London , for writing in behalf of our publick Meetings and People called Quakers . § . 2. Of the inward Government and spiritual Kingdom of Christ in his Church . How far his Ministers or Servants are concerned therein as Instruments in his hand : Not strictly Representatives thereof . Our Propositions therein unanswered by W. R. He evades and gives the GO-BY to them . § . 3. His late opposition to visible Persons being invested with Power from Christ to execute outward Laws , Orders , &c. in an outward form of Government , now Overthrown by himself , and the point gain'd upon his own Variation and Concession , and he farther questioned in the point . § . 4. His mistake in his Allusion against representing the Government of the King , and concerning his Prerogative , W. R. unskilful in the point . § . 5. Of the Cause espoused by us , no other than the Cause of Christ his Church and People . W. R. like a persecuting Informer , his work tending to bring more severe Persecution upon us ; his representing us as in seeming Vnion with the Papistical party , and comparing us with Popes , the Church of Rome , &c. Devilish , Malicious and Fallacious , yet most silly and impertinent , and his Resemblances full of Falshood , and his Similitudes abusive and shallow , bringing great Reflection upon himself , acting the part of a silly Sophister , yet proud and scornful . § . 6. W. R's Cry for Justice against G. F. and who must be the Judges , and what Judicature , qustioned . His malicious , dubious & proofless Reflections upon the Pen-man , Ministring Friends and yearly Meetings , and comparing them to the Popes General Councils ; and his Instance of the Bishop of Bitonto's Commendation of Pope Paul the third ( with his Blasphemous Doctrine about the Light ) prov'd unjust , and the Similitude impertinent and grosly false , &c. His accounts against Popes , &c. ( gathered out of the History of the Council of Trent ) he unjustly applies to our Friends ▪ § . 7. His Similitude of Disumon , with the Pope , to render us worse than he : And his Comparison between our Friends and the Popish Lords Inquisitors , and his uncharitable Censure about punishing his Body , and taking away his Estate , all unjust . Of our standing by our Treatise entituled , The Accuser , &c. § . 1. HIs questioning the Credit of Ellis Hookes , A Clark for his yearly Salary ( as he calls him ) and insinuating against the Meeting , for whom he was a witness , as not meriting the Name of Sober Conscientious Quakers ; and as being infatuated , &c. cap. 2. p. 15. And why so , but because they wrote in the Name of publick Meetings , & in the Name of the People call'd Quakers ? Does this prove them Infatuated , or unworthy the Name of Sober Conscientious Quakers ? 'T is a wonder he is not ashamed thus manifestly to scandalize and abuse so many Conscientious , Sober and Understanding Persons , when he knew not who they were in particular . Have we not often writ in the name and behalf of our Friends & People call'd Quakers , in their Vindication from the opposition and abuses of Opposers and Gain-sayers of Truth , in matters known to be universally own'd by them ; and this both with their tacit Consent and Approbation ? Must we seek for a Deputation from the People called Quakers throughout England , &c. in all Cases wherein there is a present necessity of their Vindication , when generally abused in Print by Adversaries of divers sorts ? For I tell W. R. he merits not so much as the Name of a Quaker , in abusing at least the major part of them in Print , as he has done , to render them Popish , Odious and Infamous , and rather justifying the Pope , and Lords of the Spanish Inquisition , p. 21. than many of them . And his disaffected Party are not so numerous as he would have us think , p. 23. far short ( to be sure ) of those he writes against and abuseth in Print ; for his smiting at the publick and faithful Ministers ( who are approved of most generally by the People called Quakers ) is a Reflection and Scandal upon that People . § . 2. Our observation on the 42d Disaffection shews , that our Objection lies not against the outward Government under which we live , nor yet against the inward Government of Christ ; for Christ's inward Government in his Church , and his spiritual Kingdom and extent thereof , as also our innocent Conversations towards the outward Government , we have plainly asserted in our Treatise against the Accuser , pag. 114 , 115 , 116 , & 118. Though W. R's words are cited at large , more fully to shew his sense and distinction upon the inward Government of Christ , where he adds , viz. Which is not represented by Persons visible by carnal Eyes , invested with Power from him to execute outward Laws , Prescriptions , Orders , Edicts or Decrees , in an outward form of Government visible . Wherein we reasonably took his Objection to lie as much against visible Persons being so invested with Power from Christ to execute outward Laws , Prescriptions , &c. and against an outward Form of Government , visible in his Church , as against Christ's Government being Represented by Persons visible . But now he pitches his Objection upon the word [ REPRESENTED ] questioning , Whether it is not a Contradiction in common sense , to conclude , That Persons visible can be the Representatives of the inward Government of Christ ? Which was not our Assertion ; nor did we conclude , that Persons visible are the Representatives of Christ's inward Government , in a strict sence , absolutely or solely as in Christ's stead : And therefore his Objection supposes that to be our position , which we never asserted . Yet not to loose nor lessen any part of Christs Government , we have plainly asserted , That 't is exercised by him both Immediately and Instrumentally in his Church : Immediately and principally by himself ; and Instrumentally ( in some measure ) by his Ministers and Servants , as well as he teaches and instructs both Immediately and Instrumentally ; as in our first and second unanswered Propositions about Church Government . And therefore as we prefer Christ's inward and immediate Government by himself as Principal , and his governing Instrumentally by his Servants : But in some Measure ( as our words are ) this shews , that we do not render them the absolute Representatives of his inward Government and spiritual Kingdom ; though we may truly and tenderly assert , They do by the inward Assistance of the Power and Spirit of Christ , in some measure livingly represent or signifie , declare and shew forth the inward and spiritual Government of Christ , as being his faithful Servants and Ambassadours ; yea , some are called Ambassadours in Christ's stead , in and through whom Christ ministers , instructs , commands , orders and rules . And the holy Ghost made some Overseers , and appointed Helps and Governments in the Church ( as we have laid down in our third Proposition ) Especially for the sake of the younger and weaker Members , Children and such as are of under Age , as to Truth and experience in the work of the Lord. Our Adversary answers not this Proposition , which is so plain , tender and submissive to Christ , in his behalf and preference : And therefore W. R's inferring and charging the fruit of a confused Anarchical Principle on us ( in reference to our said Disaffection ) follows not in Truth , but rather shews it to be the fruit of his own Prejudice and Enmity . From whence also his scornful Question proceeds , viz. Whether the Pen-man hath known , and hath in pivate a Catalogue of the Names of such visible Persons , whom he may esteem the Representatives of Christ's inward Government ? pag. 16 , 17. He fallaciously obtrudes and imposes his word REPRESENTATIVES still in this case upon us , extending it beyond our Intention , and what our words will bear ; craftily evading and giving the GO-BY to our Propositions in the Case , where we signifie , That IN SOME MEASURE Christ governs Instrumentally , &c. see our five Propositions in our said Treatise against the Accuser of the Brethren , p. 114 , 115 , 116. § . 3. Whereas we took his opposition to be against visible Persons being concerned in an outward form of Government , and order in the Church of Christ. Hereupon he shews himself very angry , and exclaims against the weight of the Pen-man's Iniquity , charges him with Prevarication , insinuating , as if according to my Principle ( says he ) there were not visible order and form of Government under Christs Dominion , nor any visible Persons exercised in any outward Order under his Government , p. 43. Whereby he has now plainly granted , that according to his Principle , there is both visible Order , and a form of Government under Christs dominion , and Visible Persons exercised in an outward order under his Government ( for in the two contraries , his disowning the one , owns the other ; his opposing the Negative grants the Affirmative herein . ) But he then should have writ more distinctively , consistently and plain , in telling us , What visible and outward form of Government and Order ▪ he would set up ? And what has he so much exclaim'd against , and not to have appeared so general in his opposition to outward Orders , Forms , Rules , Prescriptions , Decrees , &c. as he has done in divers passages of his Book ; and particularly , that in his first part of his Christian-Quaker , p. 73. in his opposing the Establishment , or giving forth of outward Orders , Prescriptions , Sentences or Decrees , as a Bond on the Consciences of Believers , rendring this more like the Old than the New Covenant . And his opposing Visible Persons being invested with Power from Christ to execute outward Laws , Prescriptions , Orders , Edicts or Decrees in an outward form of Government visible ; as 't is plain in the Title-page of his third part . The frequent Reiteration of these and such like passages and Words , shew his Objection was against Visible Persons being impowered by Christ to execute ( or minister ) † outward Laws , Orders , &c. in a visible and outward form of Government ; else what needed he write so slightily & frequently against outward and visible form of Government , outward Laws , Edicts , Prescriptions , Orders , Decrees , & c ? What 's all his Noise come to on this account ? Now he would not be thought , that his Principle is against visible Order and Form of Government under Christ's Dominion ; Nor against some visible Persons being exercised in some outward Order under his Government : Thus far the point is granted and gain'd upon him , and his Concession thereto the farther confirm'd , in deeming our rendring his great Book to be against Church-Government , outward Methods , Orders and Rules , &c. A false Assertion ; Though we cannot reckon that Book of his to look with a better Face in the mian purport and Series of it , especially considering his Third part , from what 's mentioned in the Title , and against R. Barclay's Book for Church-Government , and in many other places and passages of that Book , and in his Epistle in this his 7th part he is smiting at Establishing an outward Vniformity , outward Things , outward Directory , &c. But now we must take his meaning and principle to be not against visible Order and visible Form of Government under Christ's dominion , nor against visible Persons being exercised therin ; How then shall we understand his meaning and principle ? Why did he not then more plainly distinguish it first , and brought the Controversie into a more narrow compass , and not have writ thus confusedly and shatteredly , one while against , another while for visible outward Order and Form of Government under Christs Dominion in his Church . [ As in this Treatise the matter is further Evinced against him hereafter . ] But wherein lies his Charge of Prevarication ? He gives us to know , it is in twining the Word REPRESENTED into CONCERNED , pag. 43. We are yet to seek and study , how to find this Prevarication pretended , considering the purport , tenure and conexion of his Words . For though now he owns visible Persons to be exercised or concerned in an outward Form of Government and Order under Christ's Dominion ; yet not that his inward Government is represented by them ; yet his Distinction before excluding visible Persons not only from representing Christ's inward Government , but also from being invested with Power to execute ( i. e. to minister , give forth , or put in practice ) outward Laws , Edicts , &c. in an outward Form of Government Visible , appears to bespeak his sense than to exclude them from being concerned in an outward Form of Government and Order in the Church of Christ under his Dominion . For if they do in no sense or degree represent Christ's Government , how are they concern'd in it ? And if they have no power to execute ( minister , or put in practice ) outward Order and Form of Government visible : How are they either exercised or concerned in an outward form or order of Government under Christ's dominion ? But this is now granted us in the Affirmative So then , wherein must we understand W. R's opposition to lie against outward Order , outward Form of Church-Government , outward Laws , Edicts , Rules , Prescriptions , & c ? I presume , not against any of his own making , but against such as he calls G. Fox's , &c. as he has told us of a slighting G. F 's Rules , Methods and Orders , with respect to Church-Government ; see the Accuser , &c. pag. 83. But then I would know , whether it is against all , or some , that G. F. has writ or given out ? If he says , not against all , but some ; then I intreat him to let 's know , what SOME they are particularly ? What Instructions , Rules or Methods they are he Condemns , and that he deems condemnable , as evil or unlawful in themselves ? We have divers times prest for a Catalogue of them , that the Controversie might be more plainly distinguishable , and brought into a narrow compass , which now lies not only prolix and tedious in W. R's Books , but also scattered , confused and ambiguous in his Writings , wanting in many places the supplement of his latter Thoughts and Meanings : So that when he has write one Book , it wants another to declare its meaning ; he has taken a great compass to write a very little matter in . § . 4. For his distinction between the words Represented and Concerned , he says , That many thousands are exercised in an outward Order , under the Government of the King , who if they should thence declare , that they are the Representatives of his Government , 't would be deem'd a Mood of Speech , tending to the annihillating of the King's Prerogative : And concludes the like in relation to Christ's Prerogative , p. 43. But herein the man is under a Mistake ; in this Allusion , his skill in the Law , and the King's Prerogative and Government has fail'd him in this point . For the King's Government is represented in all Courts of Judicature , legally acting in his Name and by his Power , whereby the King is look't upon to be present in all his Courts : Yea , every legal Minister and Conservator of the King's Peace , even from the Justice to the Sheriff & Constable or Peace-Officer does in his place and legal Office in some degree represent the Kings Government , in the doing Justice and Conservation of his Peace : And this no ways lessens , but promotes the King 's legal Prerogative . For the King in the Eye of the Law is Justitiarius Capitalis , the Head or chief Justice , and hath his subordinate Ministers and Justices under him , legally impowered by him , according to his just and legal Prerogative . Now seeing W. R. is so much out , and has lost his aim in his Comparison , these things are mentioned to rectifie his Judgment ; And the Comparison , as now stated , may be better applied to Christ's Kingdom and Government , who though he be the chief Overseer and Shepherd , the great Apostle and Minister , the great Ruler and Governour , &c. he has his Overseers , his Apostles , his Ministers and Servants and Helps in Government , which is none other than Christ's Government in his Church and Kingdom , and under his Dominion ; which I hope our Opposer dare not deny , however he differ with us in the Application . § . 5. As concerning an Angry Waspish Pen , wherewith thou twice over chargest the Pen-man , adding , That the more he stirs therewith , the more will the Cause , which he espouseth , stink , pag. 17 , & 44. I must tell thee , first , I never met with a more Angry Waspish Pen than thy own ; though thy Malice and Wickedness hath been ( in divers parts of our Book ) deservedly reprehended , thou hast in much thereof been mildly treated . 2 dly , I know no cause espoused by us therein , than the Cause of Christ his Church and People , which will live and remain sweet and pretious to all the upright in Heart , when thy malicious Work and corrupt Cause will more and more appear naucious , loathsom , and stink above ground , till swept into the Pit from whence it came , and which thou art very near , and without Repentance canst not escape it . 3 dly , What occasion have we ( or any of us ) given thee to rage and roar against us , and like a persecuting Informer , to go about to expose us in Print , tending to disgust Authority ▪ and to bring more severe Persecution upon us , as seeming to be at Vnion with the Papistical party ? pretending to discover Principles and Practices relating to George Fox and hi● Party ( as thou callest them ) that run parale● with the Church of Rome . And then to excuse this thy persecuting Cain-like and Judas-like work against us , thou falsly placest it on the Will of the Lord , saying ▪ The Will of the Lord be done , p. 17. ( whils● thou art doing the Will of the Devil , thy Master and Father of Lyes and Lyars ) adding , That 't is but just that Deceit and Idolatry should be discovered in whomsoever , &c. p. 18. But come on ; That thou dost , do quickly . Let 's see what exact Similitudes and eminent Discoveries thou hast shewn and made of our seeming Vnion and Paralel with the Church of Rome . Thus thou attempts it , viz. 1st , 'T is affirmed of the Pope , that he is Christ's Vicar on Earth — Accounts himself invested with Power to execute outward Laws , Edicts and Decrees : Herein ( sayst thou ) I place not much difference between the Pope , on the one part , and the Pen-man and some of his the Brethren on the other . And why so ? The Pen-man and his Brethren ( sayst thou ) account themselves the Representatives of Christ's inward Government over the Conscience , p. 18. That 's an Untruth by the way , and none of our words , but a scornful Pervertion : Where did we so account our selves ? 'T is improper and unsound to say , That visible Men or finite Creatures are the Representatives of Christs inward spiritual Government over the Conscience ; which is endless , and where Christ himself reigns . Where did we ever assume a Government in Christ's stead over the Conscience ? But only as his Servants and Witnesses , by his Spirit do commend our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of God , and thereby only represent or shew forth by sound Doctrine and good Conversation , That Christ must rule and be obey'd as the Head of his Church ; which vastly differs from the Pope's false sence of his being Christ's Vicar or Representative on Earth . Thou addest , viz. And that they are invested with Power to execute outward Laws , Edicts and Decrees . And what follows on thy discovery and similitude ? Therefore the Pope and G. F. and his Party seem to be in Vnion , and run Paralel with the Church of Rome : That 's false . The true Apostles and primitive Christians had outward Laws , Commands , Decrees , &c. which they practised : So hath the Pope and the Church of Rome ( though not the same . ) What follows ? Did they therefore seem to be in Union ? Thy Similitude and Inference are fallacious . We differ in the Power and Manner of Execution ; and our Laws and Decrees , which Christ hath given us , differ from the Popes . The Popes Power is Carnal and Coercive : Ours , Spiritual and Perswasive . The Popes Ecclesiastical Laws , Edicts , Canons and Decrees are to promote a false Church , Idolatrous Worship and Superstition : Our Laws and Decrees , &c. are first written in our Hearts , and taught us by Christ Jesus , enjoyning us to eye , believe and follow him , as our Rock , our Way and Leader in Holiness and Purity of Life and Conversation . Therefore thy Comparison is silly and abusive here , as well as Malicious : The Pope claims a succession from Peter and Peter's Primacy , * ( as their term is ) as the Rock and Foundation of the Church : So do not we , but deny that Doctrine as false , believing and owning Christ to be the Rock and Foundation ; nor yet do we assume or pretend any Priviledge , Power or Authority over Christ's Church from an outward succession , but only being Christ's Witnesses , Ministers , Servants and Ambassadours , are assisted by his immediate Presence , Power and Wisdom with us , to assist , order and govern us in his service , and the service of one another in love . Again , thou proceedest in thy Similitudes , viz. 2dly , The Pope likewise affirms , that the Church of Rome is the true Church , and — in the true Faith : The Romish Clergy teach , that we must believe as the Church believes . Herein I cannot justly place much difference between the Popish Clergy and Pen-man , if he approved this Doctrine ; viz. The true Church is in the true Faith that is in God ; and we must either believe thus as the true Church believes , or else it were but both a Folly and Hypocrisie to profess our selves Members thereof , pag. 18. Thus thou wouldst make me ( whom I presume thou intendest ) to resemble the Pope and his Clergy , and to seem to be in union with them : But dost thou not own the Doctrine to be true in it self , viz. 1 st , That the true Church is in the true Faith that is in God ; And darest thou deny this ? What sayest thou to it ? Speak out man , and be plain to the Point . 2 dly , That we must either believe THUS ( i. e in God ) as the true Church believes , or else 't were Hypocrisie to profess our selves Members thereof . If thou canst not deny the Doctrine in it self , why hast thou made this an Instance of our seeming to be in union with the Popish party ? For thou knowest in thy Conscience ; first , That it was not spoken of the Church of Rome , but in general of the true Church , whose Faith is IN GOD , which we neither believe of the Church of Rome , nor does the Church of Rome believe so of us . Where 's then our seeming Union ? secondly , To believe in God as the true Church doth , herein the true Church is made an instance and example of Faith in God , not to make the Church's believing this or that , the sole Reason and Cause of my ( or our ) believing the same , this were Implicit ; 't is as , not because ; for Christ , who is God , is the original & efficient cause both of the Church's and my Faith , which is in him , which is the one , living , substantial Faith , wherein is Unity . Whilst thou canst not confute the said Doctrine , behold thy Similitude , what an empty FALSE SHEW it is : What real Protestants in Europe could escape thy Censure of Resembling the Pope and his party ( nay , how canst thou escape thy self ) upon such Fallacious Similitudes as thou hast invented against us ? The Pope and his party believe there there is a God , a Christ , a Heaven , a Hell , Immortality , future states : So do all true Protestants . What follows according to thy Similitude ? Ergo , all true Protestants seem to be at union with the Pope and his party . The Pope and his party believe there is one true ●●iversal Church , and one true Faith : So do the Protestants , but not so of each other , they are not in Union ; no more are we with the Pope or his party , but with the best Reformed Protestants , wherein they differ'd from , and oppos'd the Church of Rome . The Pope believes he is a true Christian , and no Apostate : So dost thou ( W. R. ) believe thou art a true Christian , &c. What follows ? Ergo , thou dost Resemble the Pope , and seemest to be at Union with the Papistical party : Is not this ( argumentum ad hominem ) like thy Similitudes ? and more resembling them , than thou hast resembled G. F. and his party to the Pope and Church of Rome . How like a silly Sophister hast thou argued ? Mayest thou not blush and be ashamed of such silly Impertinent , yet abusive Scri●ling , vain Shews , fallacious and abusive Similitudes ? But Truth has defaced thy Pictures and Images , and discovered thy empty Shews and Legerdemain Tricks , thy Pride and Scorn against the Innocent . Thou proceedest in thy Similitudes , viz. 3dly , The Popish Clergy think it not fit that the Laity should undertake to treat on points of Divinity , or concern their heads with that , otherwise than to receive those things in the sence the Clergy teacheth . This bespeaks little of any difference at all between the Pen-man and the Popish Clergy ( ●nd why so ? ) The Pen-man on the occasion of my writing some-what touching Doctine , thus saith , viz. This man who is thus discomposed in his work , should not have medled so much with points of Divinity , which he appears so little skilful in , p. 18. What was thy design in this Instance , but to render the Pen-man and our second days Meeting so far at unity with the Popish Clergy , as not to allow the Laity to treat on points of Divinity ? Thou mightst as well have said , that we think not fit that any Lay-men should preach among us , which were notoriously false , and against our selves and Practice , and contrary to our constant Testimony , who are no Clergy-men , but Lay-men * ( so called ) Besides , our saying , Thou shouldst not have medled so much with points of Divinity , was not because thou art one of the Laity , and not a Clergy-man , but because of thy discomposedness in thy work , and thy appearing so little skilful in some points of Divinity thou didst medle in . See now how perverting and fallacious still thou art in thy similitudes . But to proceed on thy Fallacies , viz. 4thly , Some have esteemed the Authority of the Pope above the Authority of an Oecumenical or General Council , but some others the contrary ; yet both have agreed , that the Authority accompanying the one of them , hath been the highest in the Church , from whence no appeal on Earth In this I cannot of knowledge place much difference between my Adversaries and the Romish Church , because I know not but that G. F. may be by some declared to be invested with a greater Authority than the General Meeting ; neither can I deny , but that the General Meeting may be by others esteemed to be invested with greater Authority than he , p. 19. See now , what amounts thy Similitude unto here ? Thou canst not of knowledge place much difference , &c. because thou knowest not but that G. F. MAY BE by some so declared , &c. Instead of shewing Resemblance or a Similitude and seeming Union between us and the Romish Church , now thy proof is come to [ I KNOW NOT BVT , &c. ] and to a [ G. F. MAY BE , &c. ] And then again , thou canst not deny but that the General Meeting may be by others esteemed , &c. as before . So thy May-be's are thy Discoveries before pretended : See thy impertinent trifling . But thou knowest , that the Authority and Power of our Meetings has been frequently declared to be the Power of God , which is the same in all Meetings of his faithful People : We place not the Authority upon any Meeting or Number of Persons , meerly as a Meeting , but upon the Presence and Power of Christ in that Meeting ; for he is our great and wonderful Counsellor . § . 6. 5thly , What Cry for Justice is it thou complainest hath not been hearkned unto in London , when relating to G. F ? Was it a Cry for thee to be heard against G. F. in his presence or absence ? or was it Justice for thee to be heard read the Papers or Indictments against him , when he was many Miles distant ? It seems thou art for Judgment against G. F. but who must be the Judges , and where the Judicature ? Not thy self and Party , for ye are a party extream against him ; not those thou hast judged Apostates and of party with G. F. for they are incompetent ( in thy own account ) for thee to appeal to ; not the World , for they are unmeet to judge of spiritual differences ; for the Saints shall judge the World. If thou sayst , 'T is the Church of Christ thou wouldst appeal to for Justice against G. F. this grants the Church a Power of Judgment and Determination in matters relating to Conscience , contrary to thy own Principle and Doctrine . And then , where is that Church of Christ thou wouldst appeal unto , that is neither of thy party , nor of G. F's ? Now consider where thou art run . And why dost thou go on with thy jealous Reflections upon the Pen-man , when thou canst neither write positively , nor hast proof against him , saying , It is well if the endeavours of the Pen-man ( who peradventure may expect advance by Vsurpation in the Government contended for ) be not as great to keep off the stroke of Justice , when as relating to G. F. as Cardinal Scomberges were to keep off the Reformation from the Court of Rome , &c. p. 19. What proof is all this against the Pen-man , but to expose thy Malice and dubious ( as well as proofless ) Reflections to open censure ? Instead of Proof , thou presents us with thy [ If ] and with thy [ Peradventure ] Whereas the Pen-man can appeal to the righteous Judge of all and Heart-searcher , against thy Defaming and false Insinuation of expecting advancement by Vsurpation in Government , keeping off the stroke of Justice ; both which my Soul loaths . As an humble Subject under Christ's Government , I only oppose the stroke of the envious revengeful Spirit in thee and other Apostates , &c. as I really judge it my Duty . 5 thly , And what if it be reputed , That G. F. originally called Ministring Friends to General Meetings Yearly ? ( or was Instrumental therein ) as thou sayest , p. 20. Doth this seem to have union with the Popes calling General Councils consisting of the Clergy ? Did not the Primitive Apostles and Elders sometimes assemble , and that long before there were Popes or their Councils ? Were they therefore to be compared to the Popes and their General Councils ? Our placing the Ground of the Controversie on an opposite dark Spirit on thy and thy Abettors part , is true ; and so it is also , that thy opposition to many Faithful Servants of Christ , was the Fruit of Darkness , and no just comparison with the Bishop of Bitonto's commendation of Pope Paul the third , nor with his exhorting all to submit to that Council , which if they do not , it will be justly said , the Popes Light is come into the World , and men love Darkness better than Light , ( as thou cites him in this blasphemous Doctrine ) and to add to this Unjust and Impertinent Instance or Similitude , thou insinuatest by Query , Whether that Expression may be a proper Looking-glass for the Pen-man and G. Fox , to see their Faces in , when they conclude it the Fruit of Darkness not to submit to their Councils and outward Directories ? I shall leave to the consideration of the unprejudiced understanding Reader . [ Thus far thou ] p. 20. What expression a Proper Looking-Glass ? The Bishop's saying , The Popes Light is come into the World , and men love Darkness better than Light ? Is this thy proper Looking-Glass to see our Faces in ? 'T is but a dull one . Where did we ever in all our Councils , Expressions or outward Directories ( as thou callest them ) so much as resemble such false Doctrine and Blasphemy ? No , we abhor it . What a false Looking-Glass hast thou presented here ? It serves only to shew how Evil and False thy Eye is , and how bad thy Sight is ; how Impertinently and Sordidly hast thou cast upon many Servants of Christ those accounts against Popes , &c. which thou hast gathered out of the History of the Council of Trent ? And how easie is it to make Books at that rate ? Thou hast known better things of the Ministers of Christ's Light among us , than thus to represent them with thy false Similitudes ; and mayest remember , that our frequent Testimony has been ( as still it is ) to excite People to Christ's Light within , as being that true Light which is come into the World , and to his Counsel that proceeds from his Light ; and not to the Pope nor any of his Councils . And thy pretended Godly Jealousie , That G. F. hath been endeavouring to exhalt his own Imaginations instead of Christ's Light , appears Ungodly and False , as many more of thy Jealousies ( which are no Proofs ) do . § . 7. And now thy Similitudes of Disunion or difference between the Pope and G. F. and his Friends , p. 21 , 22. to render him and them worse than the Pope , are as scornful and wicked as thy former ; as for instance , to thy saying , The Pope publisheth his Bull or Decree in his Name ; and doth not usually say , 't is not for want of freeness in Spirit that I desire my Name should be hid : But it appears to me that the Pen-man was ASHAMED that his Name should be publisht with the great Bull , entituled , The Accuser of the Brethren cast down . [ Thus thou ] wherein thou hast told a gross Perversion and Untruth ; for the Pen-man neither said , I desire my Name should be hid , nor yet was he ASHAMED that his Name should be publisht with that Book thou falsly and scornfully callest , The Great Bull ; nor doth he or any others concern'd therein , find any Cause to be ashamed thereof , but to stand by it against thy Malice and Abuses in thy Great Bull , as it may be rather term'd , for thy attempting therein to Unchristian and Unchurch a great number of faithful Servants of Christ. Again , the Reason thou givest , why thy Adversaries ( as thou callest us ) have not punisht thy Body , nor taken away any of thy Estate , is , But blessed be the Lord , they have no Power so to do . Herein thou accountest is some little difference between them ( thou smites at ) and the Lords Inquisitors of the Popish Inquisition , p. 21. I must tell thee , I think this a very Uncharitable censure and smiting , implying that they would both punish thy Body , and take away thy Estate , and so be as bad as the Lords of the Spanish Inquisition , if they had but Power so to do . Which bespeaks great Prejudice and Darkness to have entred thee . And then , to aggravate the matter , thou turnest it about again , That they ( i. e. thy Adversaries ) have not suffered thee to see the Faces or know the Names of thy Judges : In that respect ( sayst thou ) the Lords of the Spanish Inquisition have been ore just , p. 21. How odiously and grosly hast thou here represented thy Opposers , who have not divulg'd their Names against thee , of whom I take the Pen-man ( and thee to mean my self ) to be one ; And if so , I must tell thee , thou hast insinuated a gross Slander , to render the Lords of the Spanish Inquisition more just ; and by a Lye justifiest the Papists , who clap men up in Prison all their dayes , never letting them know their Accusers ; ( see the History of the Inquisition ) for though the name of the Writer was not divulged with that Treatise entituled , The Accuser , &c. Many others have given their Names in the same judgment concerning thee and thy work of Discord and Enmity , and many more also do own and stand by that Judgment and Treatise : And I must farther tell thee in the sight of God , I see no cause to retract , but to stand by that Treatise , and own my share in it , notwithstanding thy opposition to the contrary , picking , and nibbling , and quarrelling here and there , but giving the GO-BY to the most material parts thereof , wherein the Controversie is most fully opened and distinguished . Of those Popes with whom W. R. compares our Friends . § . 8. Seeing W.R. esteems the Popes , ( yea , even the worst of them ) good enough to bring us in comparison with , and to cite and make them as Instances against us . As , Pope Leo the Tenth , p. 6 , & 22. Pope Paul the Third , p. 19 , & 28. Pope Julius the Third , p. 31. It may not be amiss to give some description of these Popes , according to a late History or Abstract of the Lives of the Popes , printed Anno 1679. Among the Atheists Leo the Tenth is ranked , who hearing Cardinal Bembo speaking to a point concerning the joyful Message of our Lord , answered most dissolutely , It is well known to the World , through all Ages , in how great stead that Fable of Christ hath profitted us and our Associates . This man neither believed Heaven nor Hell after our departure out of this Life . And such were Alexander the 10th , Sylvester the 2d , PAVL the 3d , Benedict the 19th , John the 13th , Clement the 7th and Gregory the 7th . Among the Magicians & Conjurers Paul the Third is ranked , as having obtained the Garland in Astrology , and in that kind of Speculation which is assisted by the Ministry of Devils . He altogether kept familiar Acquaintance with Negromancers , and such like Imposters , &c. Among Warriours & Blood-succors . Paul the Third was also accounted , viz. A great Persecutor of the Saints of God , raised and fomented the German War , which proved the Destruction of many thousand Families . Among Paricides & Impoysoners . Paul the Third also impoisoned his Mother and Niece , that the whole Inheritance of the Farniesian Family might accrew to himself . His other Sister also , whom be carnally knew upon fancying her freeness to others , he slew by Poyson . And so he is recorded among Incestuous Persons also . Among the Favourites of Whores . It s said , That Paul the Third kept a Roll of forty five Thousand Whores , who paid him a Monethly Tribute . Among Sodomites . Julius the Third used one Innocent as his Minion , and created him Cardinal . Of whom this account is also given ( in Dr. Gilb. Burnet's History of Reformation , Book 2. Abridgment , pag. 121. ) viz. That Pope Julius the Third ( when Cardinal Pool was rejected for his being too good ) was chosen for his Badness , who gave his place of Cardinal to his man that kept his Munkey , saying , He saw as much in his Man to make him Cardinal , as the Cardinals saw in him to make him Pope . Query , What worse Persons upon Earth could our Adversary have compared G. F. and Friends unto , or brought in Comparison against them in Church Proceedings or Spiritual Censures ? Behold his horrid Injustice and Envy ! CHAP. III. § . 1. W. R's Accusation of endavouring to take away his Credit : Next , to depriving him of his Estate , examined ; and the justness of our dealing with him , vindicated . What sore Reflection he has brought upon himself by his Complaint , and his acting the part of a Persecuting Informer , to render his antient Friends call'd Quakers , Obnoxious in the Eye of the Law and Authority . § . 2. His bitterly Inveighing against C. Marshall and many other Brethren . His unjust Instance of Pope Leo's Bull again . His and F. Bugg's Contradiction about W. Penn. Schism condemned in and by the Church of Christ , as well as Heretical Doctrine and Scandalous Living . The decrease of W. R's Number , and the increase and gathering of many faithful to Christ and us his followers , foretold . § . 3. The Pen-man's writing in behalf and in the name of the peaceable People called Quakers , vindicated from W. R's severe and seditious Inferences . § . 4. W.R. called in question upon his own Principle , for writing in the name and behalf of ( and representing ) divers Persons , who never chose nor gave him Power , nor allowed him so to do ( and his abuse of E. Burroughs and I. Pennington ) whereupon his severe Charge and Inference is all returned upon his own head . § . 5. W. R. and F. Bugg , their Reflections upon the Meeting in the Isle of Ely , no proof of Friends Apostacy , but of their own Partiality and Injustice in their Representation of the matter . § . 6. W. R's again recited Lye about the Paper from Barbadoes , as being one part of the fruits of the pretended establisht Government , with other unjust Aggravations thereupon , farther detected . § . 1. TO prove that thy Adversaries would cause thee to suffer in Body and Estate , if they had Power ; thou sayst , They have endeavoured , as much as in them lies , to take away thy Credit , which is next to depriving thee of thy Estate . And wherein to take away thy Credit ? Thou sayest , The Pen-man hath given thee this sort of Treatment , either in relation to thy self or thy Book , viz. Hellish Iealousies , Fiery Agent & Incendiary , his Heart is filled with Pride and Envy . As for William Rogers's Book against Church Government , 't is outragiously Wicked , Clamorous and Abusive . I cannot suppose , ( sayst thou ) what he means by these his very words [ He is here treated far more mildly than his work deserves ] unless he believes that my work deserves corporal Punishment , or Confiscation of Estate . I cannot but again say , Blessed be the Lord , that the Rigid Vncharitable Pen-man hath not Power so to do . [ Thus far thou ] p. 21 , 22. To all which I say , and that in the sight of the Righteous God , who is Judge of all , that I know no Treatment given thee , in these and the like Passages in our Book , than what thou and thine justly deserve , though in much else of ours thou art treated far more mildly , yea , more kindly than thy work deserves . And dost thou indeed judge , that we have endeavoured to take away thy Credit by such kind of Treatment ? And that 't is next to taking away thy Estate ? What hast THOU then done against us ; yea , against many of the peaceable People called Quakers ? Hast not rendred us Vnchristian , in notorious Blasphemy , Apostates , Innovators , Imposers of blind Obedience , Popish , Papistical Track , in Vnion with the Pope and his Party , more unjust than the Lords of the Spanish Inquisition ( Yea , and at such a time as this , when I presume thou canst not be ignorant , how that many of our Innocent Friends are under severe prosecution and suffering , both in their Persons and Estates ) in the reign of Q. Elizabeth and K. James ? How Uncharitable and Unjust ? How persecuting Informer-like ( all circumstances considered ) is thy Treatment ? And how Inhumane , tending to add to these our Afflictions ? And yet complainest of our Endeavours to take away thy Credit , and consequently thy Estate , when thou art but justly reprehended , and no other Characters placed on thy Work and Envious Spirit , than what are just , and naturally belong thereunto . Hath it not been our practice from the beginning , to testifie against our Persecutors , and to reprove their Envy and Cruelty ? Did we therein go about to bring corporal Punishment and Confiscation of Estate upon them ? No sure . Canst thou take liberty to abuse and villifie so many Servants of Christ in Print , and think they must all be mute under thy Abuses , and none to reprehend thee ? No such matter . They that have but the least spark of holy Zeal , or but any Life or Soul for God , must needs be kindled in some measure against thy abominable Abuses and Injurious persecuting Work. It seems , thou valuest thy own Credit and Estate at a high rate above others : Thou seemest little to value the Credit , Liberty or Estates of many others , ( even of thy antient Friends , called Quakers ) to brand and stigmatize them , as thou hast done , with as Infamous Characters , yea , and as Obnoxious in the Eye of Law and Authority , as thou easily canst , and yet complainest of Endeavours to destroy thy Credit and Estate , when thou hast given the first occasion of the Reprehension and Judgment given upon thee and thy work of Malice . Thou hast begun the Fray publickly , and broke the Peace ; now complainest of Vncharitable Treatment . First thou art Barking , Snapping and Biting , then art Complaining and Whyning , when a little Whipt for thy Folly , thy Pievish and Ugly Behaviour . Oh! Injurious and Partial Man ! Hast thou done as thou wouldst be done by ? For shame give over thy malicious and fruitless Attempts . § . 2. Again , 't is observable how bitterly thou still inveighs against Charles Marshall and the Sixty five Persons more , about the Paper touching J. W. and J. S. as judging it In some respect to be much like the Bull given forth by Pope Leo the Tenth , against Martin Luther , Anno 1520. But yet in one main Point greatly differs ; for ( sayest thou ) in the Bull there are Forty two Articles of Doctrine condemned , and the Bull ordered to be read in every place , that the matters for which he was prosecuted as an Heretick might be known . But in the aforesaid Paper , subscribed by Charles Marshall , &c. There is no mention of any perticular Doctrine , or Vitiousness of Life , for which they are persecuted by their Brethren , p. 22. [ Thus far thou . ] Whence three things are to be observed , 1 st , That the said Paper is compared to the Pope's Bull , as much like it in some respect : 2 dly , That it s deem'd worse than the Pope's Bull , in not mentioning any particular Doctrine or Vitious Life against J. W. and J. S. 3 dly , That they who subscribed the said Paper , were persecutors of their Brethren . Whereof thou knowest William Penn was one : How foully hast thou asperst and represented C. M. and W. P. &c. in these things ? And how do these Comparisons against him , and thy rendring him a Persecutor of his Brethren , agree with his being Dear W. P. This Noble man , & c ? as thy Brother F. Bugg , and consequently thy self , have rendred him , being in thy Book , pag. 73.74 . As for their not mentioning any particular Doctrine or Vitious Life , that others might know the matters alledged against them ; what , wouldst infer that therefore the Pope's Bull against M. Luther was more reasonable or just ? That 's a mistake , for thou confessest a Judgment to be given against that jealous , rending and separate Spirit from which thou hast not cleared them ( but rendred them the more Guilty , if thou beest their Representatives , as impowered by them to write in their Vindication , according to thy own reflection on us . ) And was that no Reason then to give others notice and warning against such a Spirit ? Is Schism no Sin , or not reproveable ? But how Unjust is thy Comparison ? I ask thee , if thou darest say , that Pope Leo ( that Atheist ) was in the same Sense , Religion , Gravity and tender Exercise toward M. Luther , that in thy own Narrative thou hast rendred these Friends in , that were concern'd in dealing with J. S. and J. W. at Drawell ? And I ask thee further , If ever thou readst any such Acknowledgment , Submission or Condemnation made by Martin Luther to the Church of Rome , as the said J. S. and J. W. with thy own assistance , made as satisfaction to their Brethren , and the Church of God in general ? Though afterward thou comparedst it to a Rattle to please Children . And hath a Christian Society no Power to reprove and judge a dividing , self-separating Spirit , ( in whomsoever it be ) that makes Rents and Schisms , as well as Heretical Doctrine , and Vitious or Scandalous living ? Mark them that cause Divisions and Offences , and avoid them , &c. If thou grantest the Principle , and such power in a Christian Society or Church , what will thy attempts to Unchristian and Unchurch us avail , unless thou canst prove us guilty of Vitious Lives and Heretical Doctrine ? Which if thou canst not , then hast thou and thy party assumed a Power to judge of Spirits , wherein you fairly give away your Cause , and overthrow much of your own opposition to the Churches Power and Determination in such cases ? And your Judgment to Unchristian us or our Spirits , being but your Imposition , we shall as little value ; and the day will yet farther discover whose Spirits are Unchristian , and whose Spirits are Christian. And 't is not thy boasting either of the Numerousness or Scores ( of thy party ) p. 23. that will decide the Controversie ; nor wouldst thou accept of such a Plea on our parts , but doubtless esteem it no Christian Proof or Argument , but an Imposition , and begging the Question : But seeing thou layest so much stress on thy Numbers and Scores , I must tell thee , that if they amounted to as many as the third part of the Stars ( which yet they are far short of ) that followed thee , or owned thy Work of opposition & strife , they would be but wandring Stars , and have lost their Habitations and Glory , and are darkned , whom the Dragon's Tayl has drawn and cast down to the Earth . But blessed be the Lord our God , the greater part of the Stars , among us his People called Quakers , have kept their Station and Splendor in the Firmament of his Power , and in living Union , Concord and Love , wherein they live above that Spirit of Enmity and Discord which thou and thy party are in , and which the Lord will yet farther discover and deliver those who are at unawares betrayed thereby , yet have some secret Breathings unto him , and that they may come into clearness of Judgment , so as on the Restoration and increase of the number of the Faithful and Upright : And by the spreading of the Gospel day , thy Numbers shall decrease ; and many will come to see thee more and more in thy dark and mischievous attempts , and how insuccesful and disappointed thou wilt be therein . And those that come to be recovered , and many Thousands that shall be gathered to the Lord and us his People , shall be found better , and more worthy , than thy self , and those that go out and separate from us . § . 3. W. R. is pleased to make a Charge , and draw severe and seditious Inferences upon our Advertisement , and conclusion of our Introduction , especially against the Pen-man , for vindicating the People called Quakers in their Church-Order and Discipline , and writing in the Name of the People called Quakers , when vindicated from his Scandals . But he has very unfairly and dis-ingenuously left out the distinguishing expressions in the first , as [ Peaceable , Christian , Conscientiously , Christian Society , p. 23. ] in the passage of ours , viz. We the peaceable Christian People called Quakers are Conscientiously vindicated and cleared in our Christian Society . Where 's then his exception against our vindication and writing in the Plural , in the Name of the peaceable People called Quakers ? But that , 1. We could not write in the Name of such as encouraged the publication of his Treatise entituled , The Christian-Quaker , in five parts , who yet are a part of the People called Quakers . ( saith he ) 2. Nor in the Names of such as are disaffected with laying Marriages before Womens Meetings ; And these are numerous , and called Quakers ( quoth he ) To the first ; Answer , No : How should we write in their Names , who encouraged the Publication of his said Treatise against us ( if any such were , for they keep very obscure , as not willing to be known in such encouragement . ) It is a Book of Envy , Strife and Discord , and they no Peaceable Quakers who encouraged it . 'T was the Peaceable People called Quakers that were concerned in our Vindication : And therefore W. R. saith true , as 't happens ; The Pen-man could not write in the Name of such as encouraged the Publication of his Book . Whence it follows , they were not of that Peaceable sort which he vindicated , nor W. R's Book a work of Peace , or in the least tending thereto , but a great Abuse and Scandal to , and against the very peaceable People called Quakers . Secondly ; Nor are they who oppose our Godly Women's Meetings , and laying Marriages before them , so peaceable and clear in their minds ( in that point ) as we could wish they were , and they should be better informed , and hear Instruction : However , they also are concluded by W. R.'s words , not to be of that Peaceable People called Quakers intended in our Vindication , in that he saith , The Pen-man cannot be understood to write in their Names ; when 't is most evident he did write in the Name of The Peaceable Christian People called Quakers . Though W. R. as one in some wise Conscious , leaves out the word [ Peaceable ] that he might with the greater colour draw his Charge and severe Inferences upon the Pen-man , &c. But such kind of slighty mean shifts will stand him in no stead , when we strictly look into his Fallacious dealing . And granting him that we cannot represent ( nor be understood to write in the Name of ) such Quakers ( so called ) as encouraged the publication of his persecuting Books and Pamphlets against us , nor of such as either oppose our Womens Meetings , or laying Marriages before them , or are disaffected there-with , nor in the Names of the several Scores he tells of , who gave Testimony in Writing against Charles Marshall and Sixty five more . ( The greatest part whereof being known to be Faithful men of Sincerity and service in the Lord's work ) Nor in the Names of such as he saith appear Neutral in the present Controversie , and yet own the same Principles which he and his party do . Where is then their Neutrallity ? is it in having no concern of Conscience outwarly to appear on either party , as W. R. saith ? Then they are only Neutrals in appearance , but secretly of his party and Principles , some whereof are very perverse and unpeaceable , as well as unsound . Now I say , we grant that we of the Second day's Meeting did not represent such kind of Quakers as those of W. R. his party ; nor could they impower us in our writing for , and representing the peaceable People called Quakers , or that peaceable sort of Quakers , who are for Unity , Love , Concord and Peace in the Church of Christ among us , nor was it our intention to represent , personate or vindicate such pretended Quakers , as are in a Spirit of discord and strife , causing and making Divisions , Rents and Schismes in the Church ( first disturbing and troubling , then reproaching the Society they sometime owned ) but only those of a peaceable Mind and Spirit ; and therefore his not knowing that we can represent any under that Name , more than our own Second day's Meeting , is a false insinuation ; for there are many Thousands of the People called Quakers , yea , of the most sincere and peaceable minded , besides our said Meeting , whose real sense and judgment ( in the matters treated on in our Book , against W. R's great Book ) we have represented , and who really do and will own the same . Where now hath W. R. shown the Pen-man guilty of great Impudence , in writing in behalf of the peaceable People called Quakers ? The word Peaceable in our Advertisement , left out by him , doth really distinguish it , with respect only to the peaceable sort , which are they that live in Love and Unity , who may properly be termed The PEOPLE called Quakers , as united in one Society , and become one People , and not dividing separate Spirits , who are gone out from us . And though in our Introduction , we say the terms We and Vs are used , sometimes in the Name of the People called Quakers , when vindicated from his Scandals . I say so still . And this intends no other than the Peaceable People , ( as before explain'd in our Advertisement ) and not any such pretended Quakers , as W. R. his party and Abettors , who are unpeaceable and turbulent to the Society and People among whom they sometime walked . And therefore his roaring and clamouring out great Impudence , Pride , and height of such towring lofty spirited Persons as the Pen-man , &c. are but empty Clamours and Abuses , as is also his Jealousie , That the Pen-man counts himself one of the Representatives of Christ's inward Government , who alone is Lord over the Conscience . Whereas the Pen-man never so accounted of himself , nor ever assumed to himself any such Government or Lordship over the Conscience , as is peculiar to Christ alone ; but only accounts himself a Servant of Christ , and a Subject under his spiritual Government : And therefore W. R's still proceeding in his roaring and bitter Exclamation against him , as That he would represent in Print , as if the People called Quakers , without r●●triction ( a Lye still ) were Persons impowering such an imperious Map of Pride and Drollery , as the Pen-man shews himself to write in their Names . The matter is answered before ; but yet I may further add , as the Envy and Malice of this Adversary appears swelling high , so his confidently repeated Falshoods and Abuses are numerous ; for we would neither so represent in Print , nor yet did the Pen-man so much as pretend to be impowered to write by the People in general , or without restriction ; and yet both in Charity and Christian duty , might vindicate all them as the peaceable People ca●●ed Quakers , who are really peaceable in their Spirits and Conversations : And though there be some called Quakers , who are unpeaceable in both such as W.R. and his party ; yet that cannot unpeople the other , who are truly peaceable , but rather unpeople themselves , who are unpeaceable , from being of that People : Such our vindication of a peaceable People from the unpeaceable , proves none of us Impudent , nor any imperious Map of Pride and Drollery , notorious Falshood , &c. as most unjustly rendred by an imperious proud Adversary . For hath it not been frequent with us , to vindicate the People called Quakers ? intending all those that might properly be counted a People in Peace and Unity , and that from the general Aspersions and Calumnies , both of open and secret Enemies : And in this Controversie we vindicate them as that peaceable People , who are sincere and faithful to God , lovers of Peace , Unity and good Order , and whom W. R. and his party , in their dividing and perverse gain-sayings , are not able to unpeople , nor justly to render themselves that People . As for him and those of his party , who promote his malicious , persecuting , defaming Books , &c. We cannot look upon them worthy to bear so much as the Name Quakers , muchless to be deemed that People under the Title of Christian-Quakers , whilst in their Unchristian spirit of strife and discord : And they will yet more manifest themselves to be further remote from that peaceable People called Quakers , if they Repent not ; and the peaceable and faithful , who love unity and peace in our Lord Jesus Christ , shall remain a people , and live when all such spirits as lust to envy and contention , shall be confounded , scattered , wither , be driven back and come to naught in their evil Designs and wicked Attempts ; the Breath of the Lord shall scatter them ; for no Weapon formed against his Heritage shall prosper . But alas ! our Adversary is still in a great fude and fret for our writing in behalf , or in the name of the People called Quakers , ( reiterating his Falshood again ) without Restriction , p. 24 , 25. he should have said , Peaceable People called Quakers . But he goes on at an outragious rate on this subject , confessing , He wants words to represent the Action in as ugly a dress as it deserves . And therefore when he hath as falsly asperst the Pen-man , and set him out in as Vgly a Dress as he can ( so that the Devil and William Rogers have done their worst hitherto ) he supposeth a Comparison in the case against him , but very unjustly in these words , viz. Suppose a company of men , never chosen according to Law , should meet at Westminster , and call themselves the Representatives of the People of England , and accordingly in the Name of the People of England proceed to act as such : Wouldst thou not abhor and detest the Action ? And how canst thou think that we can do less than detest thy insolent Spirit , by offering to write in the Name of the People called Quakers , without Restriction , when they gave neither thee nor any of thy Brethren such Authority ? Had the fear of God been before thine Eyes , thou couldst not have attempted to have done so Wickedly , p. 25. Here it is probable he thinks , he hath given the Pen-man a deadly Blow ; but when the Devil and William Rogers have done their worst , it comes to little Execution , but to manifest his Envy and Folly. He only shews his Teeth , but cannot bite nor fasten ; for there is no just paralel in the case ; there is no such kind of Treasonable proceeding justly chargeable upon the Pen-man , as is inferred in the Comparison : The Pen-man did not call himself the Representative , nor write in the Name of the People ( or of all those ) called Quakers , without Restriction , as he falsly saith , nor pretend an Election or Authority from them so to do ; the matter is distinguished and answered before , and yet the Pen-man might lawfully represent the Innocency of all true peaceable Quakers , both as to Principle and Practice , when abused and calumniated , either as Vnchristian or Popish Imposers , &c. without Conviction ( like as this Adversary hath frequently misrepresented them ) And this may be done charitably , freely and voluntarily in their Name and Vindication , and in true Unity , from a right knowledge of their Innocency , declared Sense and Principles ; And hath not this been the Practice of many faithful Servants of Christ among us , ever since we were a People , to write both in the name & vindication of the People of God called Quakers , or of the Innocent People called Quakers , &c. as the Lord hath laid a necessity upon them , and yet not to include those who are unfaithful or scandalous to Truth , or any who are turned into Envy and Strife , though they go under that Name ? Nor yet have they sought or needed to seek Commission from the whole People , to write in their behalf , being required of the Lord to write . And did not many of the best reformed Protestants and Martyrs write in the name and behalf of the Protestant Church and Religion , as the Book of Martyrs and other Histories , and their own Writings shew ; of which numerous Instances might be given . And did not the the Apostles of Christ often write in the Plural , both in the name and behalf of themselves and the rest of true Believers and Fellow-members , under the terms , We , and Vs , and Our , &c. especially in that of 1 John 2.19 . They went out from Us , but they were not of Us ; for if they had been of Us , they would no doubt have continued with Us ; see chap. 3.14 . and 4.6 . Here John wrote in the Name of his Brethren and Fellow-members , and distinguished themselves from those that went out from them , as we have our selves , as a peaceable People , from you that are gone out from us , into a Spirit of Enmity , Discord and Self-separation . § . 4. But ( W. R. ) since thou countest it such a horrid Crime , such great Impudence , Pride , ugly Action , Insolence , &c. to write in the name or on the behalf of People or Persons , or in their Vindication , without being impowered , authorized and chosen by the same Persons or People . Now observe well upon thy own principle and way of arguing , what a Reckoning I have with thee : Let us seriously enquire of thee , Have all those Persons in whose behalf and Name thou hast written in the Plural ( under the Terms We , Vs , &c ) given thee Authority , or chosen thee to write in their Name and behalf ? Did John Story , John Wilkinson , and now the person in Cambridgshire ( whom thou and Francis Bugg contend for , against the Record about his Marriage ) all give thee Authority ( or chuse thee ) to write on their behalf , and to expose their Names in Print , as thou hast done in thy state of the Controversie on their behalf ? Did they give thee Authority to write in their names and behalf , as those Other Friends in Truth thou tellest of and representest ? Either they did , or they did not ; if they did , then they may be entituled to , and are justly chargeable with thy work , how perverse and abusive soever it be ; If they did not chuse nor authorize thee to write in their behalf and name , then thy own Judgment returns upon thy own head , as one guilty of great Impudence , Pride , towring lofty Spirit , notorious Falshood , ugly Dress , &c. to write in the name and vindication of Persons , and to represent them who never gave thee Power , nor chose thee to thy work . Didst not thou pretend to write on behalf of thy self , and other Friends in Truth concerned , as in the Title-page of thy great Book ? and now to use the words Vs , We or Our , with respect to such as encouraged the giving forth thereof , as in thy Advertisement to thy seventh part ? When now divers noted Persons , who have appeared of thy party , refuse to stand by thy Books ; and we know none of them that dare say , they gave thee any such Authority , or chose thee to be their Representative to write in their name and behalf , as thou hast done ( against many faithful Friends , whom the Lord is with and will stand by , against thy crooked Spirit and Opposition ) but rather , those thy Friends in Truth pretended ( on enquiry , if they own and will stand by thy Books ) as it has been often asked them , particularly at Devonshire-house , in 1681. have answered , That William Rogers must answer for himself , if he hath done more than he can answer , or wronged any : They will not stand by him ; 'T is his own Act , he must look to it , &c. Thus upon a pinch they leave him in the lurch to shift for himself ; they 'l not stand by him openly however ; they own him not for their Representative , though he hath represented them , and written as in their Name , Person and Vindication ; as also represented them as Encouragers of the giving forth of his great Book , falsly stiled , The Christian-Quaker , &c. But to deal more closely and positively with thee in this matter , how camest thou to expose Edward Burroughs Name in Print , and to represent him as a Person of thy Principle and Judgment , by a confused , unsound whimsical Paper , which thou hast printed in thy great Book , with Edward Burrough's Name put to it , and represented it as his Testimony , and even in thy Title-page sayst , it was given forth in the year 1661. by Edw. Burroughs , and since the same is reprinted over and over by thy busie informing Agent Thomas Crisp , as E. B's Vision ; but I am perswaded thou and he have grosly abused and mis-represented that Servant of the Lord E. B. by rendring him the Author of such Absurdities as are contained in that same Paper about the Shepherd and his Dogs , &c. particularly in that passage of the Shepherd's gathering the Sheep with the many Goats , that did push , trouble and hurt the Sheep with their Horns , and putting them into the Fold ; and that he made fast the door , and would not separate them until he had the other Sheep also , that did not come with the Flock . See what Doctrine this is , as applyed to Christ , the good Shepherd , rendring him so severe to his Sheep , as to gather , shut up and keep so many Goats , so long among them in his Fold , to trouble , bruise and hurt his poor Sheep with their Horns . And also , that Warning and Precept given in the said Paper to Friends , for all to forbear judging any man any more , upon any pretence whatsoever : Can any that knew E. B. and the soundness of judgment & understanding that he was attain'd to in the year 1661. believe that he was the Author of such Doctrine to all Friends , as to judge no man under any pretence whatsoever ? A man well known severely to judge deceitful Workers and rebellious Ones , as ( yea , he testified plainly against John Perrot's spirit of Division ) is fully evinced in his Books and Writings . And I dare presume E.B. never gave thee authority , nor chose thee or Tho. Crisp to represent him in print ( so many years after his decease ) as the Author of the said Paper or warning to all friends , To judge no man under any pretence whatsoever : And yet thou art severely judging and reproaching others that are not of thy party as Apostates , Innovators , &c. contrary to such an express precept & doctrine espoused by thee , as E. B's Testimony . Besides the express contradiction to thy self in thus representing E. B. in print , without his leave , authority or consent , what great abuse hast thou done to him , his Memory , Name and Testimony , in exposing him in Print , as Author of that which doth not so much as look like him or his Testimony , or any Vision of his , but in the said Doctrines both contrary to his Judgment and Practice ? I say , what a horrid Abuse hast thou done to the Name and Memory of the dead in Christ , and that by promoting a forged Subscription , if thou canst not give sufficient demonstration and proof , that Edw. Burroughs was the Author of the same Paper aforesaid , which thou hast exposed in his name in Print ? If thou sayst , it was delivered to thee with Edw. Burrough 's name to it : I say , that 's no proof of its being his ; for both I and divers others have seen a Copy of the same only with J. Perrots name to it ; and this more probably true , that he was the Author , for divers reasons , than thy rendring E. B. the Author . Again , thou hast also exposed that honest and innocent Person Isaac Pennington in Print , to serve thy own turn and thy parties , as a Confirmation of thy work , and that after his decease also , for which I dare presume he gave thee no authority , nor chose thee so to represent him in Print , or to pick out of the middle , diminish or curtalize his Writings or Testimony , by leaving out the most material and explanatory precedent and subsequent Passages thereof , to the great injury and abuse of his Intention ; for which his Son John Pennington was stirred up to vindicate his deceased Father , and to detect thy abuse and Prevarication . And am satisfied , that neither Edward Burroughs nor John Crook gave thee Authority to quote or cite them , or either of them in opposition to G. F. as thou hast John Crook especially , in thy Epistle , pag. 3. nor to tell the World in Print , That his Testimony is agreeable to thy sence : I do not believe J. C. will in the least own thee in thy work of Opposition , and strife against many faithful Servants of Christ. Also , thou and Francis Bugg have represented William Penn in Print , on some passages pickt out of his Address to Protestants , as in thy 66 and 73 pages , which he never gave you power to do , much less to represent him ( as if he were one in Judgment with you against his Brethren ) nor did he give thee or F. Bugg leave to discant upon and turn his words to serve your own turns , nor to apply them against such his Friends in the Isle of Ely or else-where , who are for Womens Meetings , and laying Marriages twice before the Mens and Womens Meetings ; it is not to be supposed , that he intended [ Fly Rome at Home ] as proper Admonition to them , as thy Brother F. Bugg applies them , as in the Authority and genuine sence of Dear W. P. p. 78. calling William Penn , Dear Friend , p. 65. This Noble Man , &c. p. 73. Which is to render W. P. exactly one of your own party ; and all this without his authority leave or consent . But how comes he now to be Dear William Penn , Dear Friend , and This Noble man ? Hast not thou numbred him among the Persecutors of J. S. and J. W. as thou esteemest Charles Marshall and Sixty Five more ( as thy phrase is ) who signed the Paper thou art so much offended at ? p. 22 , 27. Was not William Penn one of those sixty six Subscribers ? And dost not thou on this very occasion retort his words [ Let us fly Rome at Home ? ] What! must he therefore be a Persecutor of his Brethren , and yet a Dear Friend , Dear William Penn , This Noble man , &c. in thy Book ? What Self-contradiction and manifest Flattery art thou and thy Brother Bugg ( like Parasites ) guilty of ? Pray lift up your Eyes and see your selves , if not judicially given over to blindness and hardness of heart . Take another Instance or two of thy Self-contradictory dealing ; Didst not thou expose a Certificate or Testimony ( as thou esteemedst it ) of Nathaniel Crips in Print against G. F. without any Authority from Nathaniel for so doing ? I am sure he confest as much to me and John Bouldron the 6th Moneth , 1679. against thy publishing it in Manuscript , as that thou didst it without his advice , knowledge or order ; see our Book , Accuser , &c. p. 172 And likewise , that pretended Certificate or Testimony of Edw. Perkins , which thou printedst against G. F. Edward confessed to me at sundry times and before divers Persons , that he did not give any advice or consent to thy printing it ; for 't was printed without his knowledge . And so , we may question or suppose thou hast done the like in the rest , or most of the pretended Testimonies against G. F. &c. from those Women and others of Bristol , &c. Now may not I rationally take leave to reflect and argue , ad hominem , upon thee , and according to thy own Terms thus , Oh! thou Imperious Map of Pride , towring lofty and Lordly Spirit , insolent and conceited , proud Vsurper ! how durst thou either write in the name or behalf of so many , whom thou countest Friends in Truth , and numerous too ? or expose the names of so many deceased Servants of Christ in thy Quarrel , as if they were all on thy side and party , when thy gave thee no power , nor deputed thee so to do ? And thou must answer for thy misrepresenting them , and abusing their Names , Memories and Testimonies , when the chieftains of thy own party dare not stand by thy work , nor own thee for their Representative , but leave thee to stand by it thy self , as thy own . What an unjust and false Representative hast thou shewn thy self , by thy own rule and manner of Reflection upon others ? though I am apt to think that some few have privately encouraged thee in thy travail , who now are afraid publickly to stand by thy deform'd , inform unshapely and monstrous Birth , begotten and brought forth by the old Accuser of the Brethren ; though some are not ashamed to promote and expose it to Sale , but it will turn to their own shame , and be their burden at length . § . 5 Again , to prove thy false charge of Apostacy and Innovation against us ( p. 26. ) thou insistest on a Record in the Quarterly Meeting Book at Hadenham in the Isle of Ely about * a Marriage , shewing Friends dislike of the manner of proceeding and disunion there-with . The Question is , Whether the person concern'd gave thee Authority to expose this in Print to make him a subject of the Controversie , and proof of our Apostacy ? If not , as I presume he did not , but rather F. B. from whom , thou sayst , thou receivedst it ; then hast thou shewn thy self no Friend to the Person concerned , in exposing his name in Print , in a matter that tends to his disrepute and disgrace , and that in plain contradiction to thy own Principle and Judgment against us ; and yet the ground of Friends dissatisfaction in that case , thou dost not demonstrate , ( wherein thou hast done partially and unjustly , which necessitates this discovery ) but sayst , It is for not proceeding exactly in that outward new formed Method : Whereas 't was an Innovation or new Method that Friends were offended at , viz. propounding the Marriage but once to the Meeting , and that in the Womans absence ( with whom he intended Marriage ) which is both a new Method and Imposition on Friends , upon his bear word and credit , without the Woman's Testimony from her own Mouth , which should have been allowed Friends , and that at two sundry Meetings , from both the Persons concerned ; which is no new formed Method , but that which has been many years among us , and is a necessary and commendable Method , both for enquiry into the Persons clearness from other Engagements , and tending to a general satisfaction of Friends in Truth . And this Method doth neither invalidate nor derogate from that antient Advice of Friends , cited in thy 4th Chapter concerning Marriage , pag 66. viz. Let it be made known to the Children of Light , especially to those of the Meeting , to which the parties are Members , that all in the Light may witness it to be of God , and that no Scandal may rest upon the Truth , nor any thing done in secret , but all things brought to the Light , &c. This is general , and was wholsom advice . And there is no particular Method used among us , but it tends to the same good end , ( viz. for the satisfaction and Testimony of all in the Light ) and doth not in the least contradict or lessen it ▪ Where 's then the Antichristian Imposition , Apostacy and Innovation , thou chargest in the Contents of thy fourth Chapter ? Is it in proposing Marriages twice ( or at two sundry times ) to the Meetings the parties b●long to ? and that by both the parties concerned , to prevent Scandal and Clandestine proceedings , and that Friends in the Light may witness it to be of God , which is our Method ; and in which the Person aforesaid did not proceed , in his proposing his intention of Marriage but once , and that in the Womans absence ( as Friends have given account ) and for which cause Friends expressed they had not Vnion with him in so doing : But it seems thou hast , in being so officious an Advocate for him against Friends for their Conscientious dislike recorded against such an Example or President ; and scoffing at our Women Friends in the Isle of Ely , as ( thou sayest ) may be accounted of the QVORVM , p. 24. Is this thy proof of Antichristian Imposition , Apostacy and Innovation against us ? Where 's thy Christianity , Conscience , Religion and Order pretended ? Oh! be ashamed of thy Scornful , Unchristian and Infamous Attempts . And also it was no Friendly part in thee , to endeavour to expose the Quarterly Meeting of the Isle of Ely in Print to publick censure , on the bare Information of Francis Bugg , thy Informer , ( who has shewn himself , a Party and open Adversary against that Meeting ) rendring it no better than an Imposing Church , a False Church , p. 74. against whom thou hast joyned in Judgment with him , without hearing that Meeting 's own defence and answer to Francis Bugg in the case : is this thy judicial and equal proceedings ? Oh for shame , give over thy partial and impertinent Scribling ! And what if the said Quarterly Meeting , would not once hear F. Bugg's Letter , nor suffer it to be read ? It appears he has not behaved himself so well and obligingly to that Meeting , as to engage Friends there to lay by their other concerns , to hear his Letter against their proceeding : They were not ignorant of F. B's turbulent Spirit ; witness his troublesom work , his ignoble , base and crafty dealing against Samuel Cater about the Fine , &c. a particular account whereof is expected from G. Smith and Friends of the Isle of Ely , who know the transaction in the Circumstances of the subtil Intreague , which possibly may be a Rebuke to Francis Bugg his Immorality in the ●ase , & corrupt Conscience , as well as to his Pride and Insolence , as an Ensample to Posterity , which I really think he deserves , if he 'l not study to be quiet towards Friends his peaceable Neighbours . In his said Letter to the Quarterly Meeting at H●denham in the Isle of Ely ( and which is printed in thy Book , part 7. p. 72. ) though he flatteringly begins with Dear Friends , he accuseth them about the Record against J. A. as excluding him out of the Vnity of Friends , and with Excommunication , &c. Wherein he has dealt prevaricatingly and falsly , as appears by his and thy own account of the Meeting 's Record , which is , That they have no Vnion with him in THIS HIS SO DOING : Which relates to that particular Act , and not wholly to exclude the Person out of the Vnity in all other things as one Excommunicate , &c. Yet he proceeds Reflectingly , telling them of Stigmatizing , laying stress where God hath laid none — Excommunicating about such things which are at best but mens Traditions , and Impositions — Imposing false Church . Applying William Penn's words , This noble Man's words ( as he flatteringly stiles him ) [ Fly Rome at Home ] to the said Quarterly-Meeting , which were never so intended by W. P. Thus thou and F. B. have abused W. P. in Print , shamefully perverting his words and intention , who never could intend to bid a Quarterly-Meeting Fly Rome at Home , either for testifying against such Irregularity as proposing a Marriage but once to a Meeting , and that in the absence of the Woman concerned ; nor yet for justifying upon the Method of proposing the Marriage twice before consumated . Is this that Rome at home which Thou and F. B. would have Friends to Fly ? ( for I take thee and F. B. to be in great Union now in your work , seeing you appear so joyntly together in Print , and to charge Friends with Imposition , Immorality , &c. as thou hast done . ) But he deals partially , as thou hast done , in not manifesting the occasion of Friends dissatisfaction , he charging them with Excluding the aforesaid Person , what in them lies , out of the Vnity , Excommunicating , &c. In which he placeth the Controversie but about manifesting his intention to Marry ; and then crys , Behold the Crime ! But shews not what it is in the manner of circumstances of it . Thus partial and covered you are in stating matters . But the said Meeting would not hear his Letter : What great Crime was that ? To this thou sayst , viz. Should the Supream Power in this Nation have treated our Friends so as not to hear our Addresses , many Goals might at this day have remained full of honest Friends , who have been discharged from their sore Imprisonments . There 's no parallel in the case between Friends tender Addresses to Authority for Relief of Friends in Distresses , Goals , &c and F. Bugg's ●●●lecting abusive Letter to Friends , in vindication of an Irregular Practice , unwarrantable , and tending to a corrupt fleshly Liberty , as that of Proposing the Marriage but once to the Meeting , &c. Howbeit , 't is a marvel thou wilt grant us so much Truth , as that our Addresses have at any time had so good effect with Authority , as to obtain the enlargement of so many honest Friends out of their sore Imprisonments . This is more than some of thy Party have owned . However , considering thy Concession herein , 't is the worse requital in thee to villifie and abuse such in Print as have been most industrious with the supream Power in the Sufferers behalf , as to my knowledge thou hast very evilly requited and treated some such , rather like a revengeful Persecutor , than a Helper of the oppressed . So thy Charge of Immorality on the Quarterly Meeting in the Isle of Ely , for not hearing F. B's Letter , and instancing the Parliaments admitting us to represent our Agrievance , &c. are still both unjust and no ways parallel . For if we had given the like occasion against the Parliament , that thou and F. B. have against us , they might very well have rejected our Applications , as Persons insolent to , and contemning of Government ; should we have rendred them no more rightly in Government than you have our Meetings for a Church of Christ , how should they have accepted our Addresses ? As if we should have told them , they were a false , usurping , imposing , apostate Parliament , they might justly have rejected our Addresses . § . 6. Moreover , 't is a shameful Lye and Abuse for thee again to recite the Paper from Barbadoes , As one part of the fruits of the pretended establisht Government , p. 27. since that Paper was so far from being own'd as any part of the fruits of that Government establisht ( which was by Christ , we affirm ) among us , that we have both plainly manifested our dislike thereof ; and the Persons concern'd in it in Barbadoes have themselves retracted it , as is since publickly evinced in Print ; yet thou art so unconscionable as to render both G. Fox , my self , &c. as shewing no dislike to the said Paper , p. 28. Oh shameless Prevaricater and Abuser ! Thou canst not but otherwise understand divers Passages in our Letter about it to Barbadoes , which clearly bespeaks our real dislike of it , as thou confessest G.F. &c. would seem to discourse a little of something amiss , &c. 'T is evident G. F. &c. dislike some part of the said Paper , &c. p. 29. Seem to dislike the latter part thereof , p. 4. But little indeed thou makest of that part of our discourse , but art rather willing to expose us unjustly to publick Censure , on those words of ours which appear most friendly , tender and obliging , and falsly to represent us , as shewing no dislike to the said Paper . Adding also another gross Untruth and self-contradiction in the case , viz. That the Pen-man is espousing a cause contrary to antient Testimonies , &c. p. 30. And further sayst , G. W. smoothed up the Barbadoes Meeters with this Expression , We know you aim at the best things , p. 82. What smoothing was this , when we had plainly shewed them their Mistake ? We are sure then 't was not to smooth them up therein : And may not some aim at good ( yea , the best ) things , and yet be mistaken in some cases ? What Absurdity then have I committed , in telling them ( whom I believed had a good meaning , though otherwise mistaken ) they aim'd at the best things . Thou hast put my Name with G. F's at length , with an &c. instead of A. Parker's , to two or three ●ines thou hast cited in the conclusion of our Letter to Barbadoes , as an instance wherein we shew no dislike to their Paper , because we call our selves Their dear Friends , &c. Is this thy [ More anon ] to shew that I would now be as a Lord over my Brethrens Consciences and Estates ? p. 25. For I presume 't is me thou intendest ; and if so , 't is false and abusive . [ O righteous Judge of all , and Heart-searcher ! plead thou my Innocency , and rebuke this Spirit of Envy , Falshood and Slanders that 's risen upon against thy faithful Servants . ] Whereas our charitable , tender and friendly Treatment of them in Barbadoes rather shews , that we were not willing to reject , exclude or unfriend Persons for one or two Mistakes , than to seek Lordship over them or theirs , who otherwise were so well meaning , as that we had cause to believe , that God would rectifie their Judgments , and set them to rights in all their Undertakings . So that 't was enough for us to shew our dislike or disunion with them in that particular thing wherein they were mistaken or erred . CHAP. IV. § . 1. The great ends of Christian Religion and Society being eyed , a more easie condescention and concurrence follow in lesser matters . Things necessary for good order , not doubtfully recommended . Our consistency in the condescention proposed , and how ; explain'd and clear'd from W. R's mistaken Objections . § . 2. W. R's judging and censuring a Person ( and that falsly ) whilst unheard in defence of himself , condemned by himself as a grand Mark of Apostacy , and he proved guilty thereof in fact . § . 3. W. R's Charge of false Suggestion , Prevarication and Forgery ( reflecting on himself ) proved notoriously false by divers Instances recited out of his own Book , shewing his general Opposition to outward orders , form and discipline , &c. relating to Church-Government : And then unsaying that opposition again by his finally granting both outward Order , Methods , Forms and Discipline under Christ's Government : How far binding on the Conscience of others , enquired into . And he must grant Liberty of Conscience in preaching and exhorting to things just , honest and needful , or else he interfers with himself in his plea for liberty of Conscience ▪ § . 4. W. R's Confutation to himself apparent , in confessing , That God hath afforded those helps & governments in the Church , which are not to be despised , in a Paper signed by him among Friends at London , 1673. His instance of W. P against the Penman groundless . We clear'd from imposing a b●ind Obedience , and W. Penn's own words farther cited to clear his intention for liberty of Conscience , and from what . § . 5. W. R's unfair dealing and mistaken opposition against R. Barclay's propositions concerning the Power , positive Sentence and Judgment of the Church of Christ , as being binding in SOME CASES of consequence upon Believers , the Spirit of Christ being the only proper Judge , &c. The point at length granted by William Rogers himself . § . 6. Wherein W. Rogers's discourse tends to Libertism , blind Opposition , Confusion and Ranterism . A blind Refusal of Submission to what the Lord in his Servants requires , condemned , as well as blind obedience . A Medium between both proposed , to prevent a blind Refusal and blind Obedience . Of W R's wrong Measures , false Judgment and Suppositions , Envy and Scorn , Laughter , hypocritical Lamentation , Praying , Cain's Sacrifice , his lofty conceited and contemning way of writing . § . 1. IT is true , and I am still of the same mind , that having the great ends of true Religion and Christian Society in our Eye , viz. An unspotted Life , Love and good Works , &c. as the very intent of our care and proceedings in the Church of Christ , we can the more easily concur and accord as to Circumstances and outward Methods , and in the Wisdom of God so condescend one to another , and accomodate matters as not to divide about them , &c. And I do not find that our Opposer produceth any seeming Contradiction to this Citation out of our Book , as he endeavours upon our following words , viz. We would be understood that those things commended among us as necessary for good Order and Holiness of Conversation are not recommended doubtfully , or upon meer Supposition , nor as matters of indifferency to be practised or rejected , but in faith & full assurance , as answering Gods Witness and Truth in the Consciences ; and that such will meet with a tender Reception , and not Opposition in all tender and upright hearts . Where 's now the seeming Contradiction in this to the precedent Passage ? See what observation our Opposer makes upon them . He observes , That the Penman seems thereby to look three ways at once , p. 36. [ though his sight and observation has greatly fail'd him herein ] as first , In commending things necessary for good Order and Holiness of Conversation , NOT as matters of Indifferency . To this W. R. thus saith , viz. Wherein I take the truest sense of his mind to be ( and that the first citation importing his readiness to condescend ) was to cover himself and others from the guilt of Apostacy and Innovation . He is mistaken in his observation here ; there was no such intent nor necessity for the Pen-man to cover himself or others from that guilt , for to commend things necessary for good Order and Holiness of Conversation , not as Indifferent , but Essential to such Order , &c. and a Condescention in circumstances , and accomodating matters , so as not to divide , &c. may very well stand together , especially where there 's unity of spirit and affection ; for if there be true love and unity in the greater matters , essential to good Order , &c. 't is more easie for such as are tender and upright-hearted to find out accomodation and concurrence in lesser circumstances . So that still 't is to be understood , they must settle in an union and concurrence at last ; otherwise , how should they joyntly do business or service for the Truth or each other ? There 's no concurrence nor joynt-service where there 's confusion and contradiction . But W. R. proceeds in his observation against the Pen-men , viz. 2dly , By his readiness to condescend to his Brethren ( which doubtless in that place he intends such as are upright hearted , and mean well for 't is not fit to condescend to others ) and therein the indifferency before excluded is implyed . He 's mistaken again in 's observation ; for there may be a tender and Christian condescention of the upright hearted among themselves , in two respects : 1 st , In the stronger bearing with , and helping the weak , bearing the burden of the weak , and not laying more upon the weak than what they are able to bear . 2 dly , In the wisdom of God finding out such accomodation , in some lesser matters & circumstances not so essential and indispensible ; so that there may be a general concurrence , ease and peace of spirit in such lesser circumstances , implying or including that indifferency before which is excluded the greater , more weighty and necessary things relating to good Order , holiness of Life , &c. For there may be such an indifferency in some circumstances , wherein we may condescend to weak Brethren so far as the spirit of Christ will admit ; they being such as may not alter the property from being good and lawful , nor disturbing to our Christian-society . Yet there are other material things and circumstances relating our Christian society , good order and holy living , that cannot be made Indifferent . And we plead not at all for empty Ceremonies in Church order or discipline , but such as have a real service and good end in them ; nor are we for a Church whose ornaments are superstitious , but for a Church which is gravely and purely adorned with Righteousness , the fruits and services of pure Religion . I confess W. R. has writ one remarkable Truth , i. e. That 't is not fit to condescend to others , viz. That are not upright hearted , that do not mean well : Very true . And we have cause to keep to that Doctrine , in reference to such as are turbulent and contentious Troublers of and scandalous to our society and profession . See his third Observation on the same subject before , as shallow as the rest , viz. 3dly , By the Pen-man's last cited Lines , 't is plain , that in his sence things recommended for good Order will have a reception with all upright Hearts : Which compared with his readiness to condescend , &c. ( as before ) shews , as if his condescention was intended to Brethren that were not upright hearted . Here his sight fails him , and he 's greatly mistaken again , perverting the Pen-mans sense ; for though I affirm , that those things recommended among us by Divine * Authority and Evidence ( either as duty to God or Man , or as necessary for good Order and Holiness of Conversation ) will have reception with all upright Hearts . Yet it follows not , that the condescention was intended to Brethren that were Not upright hearted , or false . For first , Here 's not a limitation of time when all things necessary ( as before ) will have reception with all upright hearts : So that there is a time and cause for condescention to them of low degree , in regard of their weakness ( not insincerity . ) Secondly , Many upright ones do not presently or immediatly see every thing that is recommended in the wisdom of God to be practised , but must have time to weigh and consider matters before the Lord first , in order to receive a clear understanding and judgment from him , before they act therein . So that in the mean time there must be a tender condescention , patience and forbearance on all hands towards such , not to look upon or judge their want of present clearness ( and their present fear to act because thereof ) an act of Refusal or Rebellion on their parts : No , no , far be it from us ; knowing that such upright hearted ones , even when but in a poor low and weak state , will not oppose , refuse or gain-say any thing they at present see not that 's either in it self good and honest , or necessary for good order and society , their uprightness , tenderness , honesty and fear towards God , preserves them from contention and blind opposition in such cases , whilst given up tenderly to wait till God reveal that unto them ( whether immediately or instrumentally ) which for a time they have not clearness in : And be sure , he will not be awanting in his divine counsel and openings to such . § . 2. To his charging the Pen-man with a groundness Complaint of Printing against G. F. without first proceeding judicially , or hearing of matters face to face , p. 39. [ Groundless Complaint ] is an untruth ; there was manifest ground for that complaint on W. R's own confession and principle , viz. his enveighing against judging any man without hearing him : Judging the merit of the cause without hearing the same : Judging and Censuring a Person unheard in the defence of himself , as being a grand Mark of Apostacy , as in his Preface to his Christian-Quaker . That W. R. has so ( ipso facto ) judged and condemned G. F. and others in divers things unheard in their own defence , we have produced divers sufficient and unanswered Instances in our Treatise entituled , The Accuser of our Brethren cast down ; and particularly his false construction on G. F's words , viz. [ Do not make Bargains with that which is out of the Truth ] On which W. R. concludes a design of Imposition , and so far as in G. F. lies to obstruct Friends from bargaining with such whom he condemns , as having no right to bargain , buy or sell , until they answer by Condemnation ; or else , that his meaning was , that G. F. would not have Friends discourse with such , nor yet to agree about any orderly Conference , in order to a Reconciliation or Hearing of Differences , &c. concluding it must be one of these two meanings , because a third he could not think of , as the matter is fully treated on in our said Treatise , Accuser , p. 146 , 147 , 148 , 149 , 150 , &c. in which W. R's judgment , and both his supposed Meanings are proved untrue . But still , to aggravate the matter against G. F. he saith , He has used the utmost of his endeavours to obtain a Meeting with him for such an end ( that is , for a hearing of matters face to face ) at several times since his last being in Bristol in the year 1677. and it will not be condescended to , ( saith he ) p. 39 , 40. This still the more confirms the Complaint against him , viz. his Printing against G. F. ( yea , judging and condemning him without hearing the matters face to face , for which he is condemned ; which is an extradicial and injurious proceedure , and grand Mark of Apostacy so to do , according to W. R's own judgment . And his pretence , That such a Meeting will not be condescended to , will not excuse the fact , that is , his judging and censuring a Person unheard in his own defence , &c. as a grand Mark of Apostacy . He might have had patience , and rather waited an opportunity for meeting with G. F. than have condemned him in Print in divers things , unheard in his own defence , and that on his own false Suggestions , Meanings and Constructions ) contrary to his own Doctrine , which is become his own Self-condemnation . § . 3. Now wherein doth the Pen-man's false Suggestion and Vnchristian-like Treatment consist , to prove him an Impious Prevaricator , or down-right Forger , as W. R. terms him ? p. 41. See how he attempts proof , in these words , viz. I shall at present cite only a few Instances thereof in his own words , ( quoth he ) viz. p. 73. His main work is still to invalidate the Authority and Sentence of the true Church . Pag. 87. Which answers and confutes W. R. in opposing outward Directions , Methods and Forms relating to Church Government . Pag. 88. His principal Objection against outward Orders , Prescriptions , Sentences , Decrees , Form of Church Government , Discipline , &c. P. 91. His gain-saying and general Objections against us in relation to Church Government and Order amongst us the People called Quakers . P. 261. Which answers his general opposition to outward Order , Form and Discipline . [ Thus hath W. R. cited our words by pieces . ] Now if it be made appear , that these things are justly laid to W. R's charge from his own words and sence thereof , I hope he 'l see cause to be ashamed of his clamour of false Suggestion , impious Prevaricator , &c. In order to which I thus directly proceed : First , That his work has been to invalidate the authority and sentence of the true Church : On Mat. 5. and chap. 6. he saith , Wherein there 's not the least tittle to countenance this sentence , That the positive Sentence or Decision of the Church in matters of Conscience , may be obligatory on Believers , as in the third part of his Christian-Quaker , p. 64. And his contest against those , who ( he saith ) have approved a Plea for such a Church Government as claims a power of deciding matters relating to Conscience and outward things , on occasion of Differences about worldly Estate ; and that others ought to obey such Decisions , which says he ) in its natural consequence hath ( as we take it ) no less tendency than to claim Power over our Properties as well as Consciences , as in the first part of his Christian-Quaker . [ Note ; A sad , but fallacious consequence , detected in our Treatise , Accuser , from pag. 53 , to p. 76. ] Is it not plain , that W. R. has here endeavoured to invalidate the authority and sentence of the true Church ( by us pleaded ) if neither obligatory on Believers in matters of Conscience , nor in outward things ? Or if the Church may not be allowed a Power of making decisions in matters of difference , either relating to Conscience or outward Estate , according to Mat. 18.17 . and 1 Cor. 6. of what validity is the authority , sentence or power of the Church with W. R ? What 's more plain against him than his own words before recited ? Secondly , That he has opposed and objected against outward Orders , Forms , Discipline , Prescriptions , Sentences , Decrees , his Gain-saying and general Objections and Opposition to outward Order , Form and Discipline relating to Church Government , &c. see how he argues the case against outward Orders , Prescriptions , Sentences , Decrees , &c. under the new Covenant , viz. because the Apostle's labour was to draw the outward Jew off from the observation of their outward Ordinances , to the Word and Law in the heart ; and because the new Covenant was not to be like unto the old ; he therefore appeals To every Ingenious and Impartial Reader , whether it can consist with the tenor of the new Covenant for ANY to attempt the establishment or giving forth of outward Orders , Prescriptions , Sentences or Decrees , to be a Bond upon the Consciences of those who have believed in the Everlasting Light , especially those of the Gentiles stock , his Chr. Qua. part 1. p. 73. How now William ? Is not here general Opposition , &c. detected and answered in our said Treatise , Accuser , & c ? p. 88 , 89. Another Instance is where W. R. saith , viz. We have no ground either from the Word of the Lord , the appearance of Christ , or from the Scriptures of Truth , since Christ's appearance in the flesh , to expect that any should be invested with Power from on high to establish such things relating to the Conscience ( i. e. outward Orders , Prescriptions , Sentences , Decrees , as before ) much less that the Children of Light under the new Covenant should be led by the eternal Spirit and Word in the heart unto such Conformity ; his Chr. Quaker , part 1. pag. 75. What sayst thou yet William to these plain Instances out of thy own great Book ? Surely hadst thou but taken a more strict and serious notice of them , as plainly cited in our Treatise , thou wouldst not have charged any of us with false Suggestion or Forgery , in representing as if thou hadst wrote against outward Orders , Forms , Discipline . This is no Forgery nor Prevarication ( William ) ▪ Peruse thy great Book a little better , with our Observations upon it in our said Treatise : Consider in calmness , if thou mayst not be ashamed thus to evade and deny thy own words ? and of thy clamour , and saying , That not a word is cited , nor yet can be , out of any thing thou hast written , that may carry such an import , viz. as if thou hadst wrote against outward Orders , Forms , Discipline , &c. in a general way , p. 41. Thou writest That in one Book which thou denyest the plain import of ( as well as the matter ) in another , saying and unsaying . Be ashamed therefore , and also of thy roaring and belching out such Slanders and Falshood also , as The impious prevaricating Pen-man — doth not quote any sentence of mine confuted , &c. p. 42. What hast thou done less than wrote against outward Orders , Forms , Discipline , & c ? What means thy saying before , That we have NO GROUND either from the Word of God , Christ or Scriptures , to expect that ANY should be invested with Power from on high to establish such things ( as before ? ) Is not here general Opposition , both to such things and to such a Conformity ? Please to review another instance or two of thy Opposition , as before , viz. 1 st , Where in the Title-page of the 3d part of thy Christian-Quaker , where to the inward Government of Christ thou opposest visible persons being invested with power from Christ to execute outward Laws , Prescriptions , Orders , Edicts or Decrees in an outward Form of Government visible , &c. See now how general thy opposition is , and detected in our Treatise , Accuser , p. 117 , 118 , 119 , to p. 137. 2 dly , The comparison before-cited between the Pope , who is a visible man , in accounting himself invested with Power to execute outward Laws , Edicts and Decrees , on the one part , and the Pen-man and some of his Brethren on the other part ; herein , thou sayst , thou placest not much difference between them , &c. p. 18. of thy 7th part . Who can here reasonably understand thee otherwise , than that thou opposest the Doctrine or Principle it self , as well as the Pope , viz. That any visible man is invested with Power from Christ to execute outward Laws , Edicts and Decrees under Christ's Government , lest thou shouldst resemble the Pope . For we may rationally take it for granted in those things , doctrines or principles wherein thou comparest the Pope & any of us , thou wouldst be lookt upon as of a contrary mind and judgment , that thou mightst not be thought like the Pope in any thing whereof thou condemnest others , as either like him , or as not much differing from him , otherwise thy comparisons or similitudes do condemn thy self as well as others , whom thou smitest at . And so , if thou countest it Popery or resembling the Pope , to say , That a visible man or men are invested with power from Christ to execute ( or put in practice ) any outward Laws , Edicts or Decrees under Christ's Government , then we must take thee as saying ( and as we have understood thee ) That no visible man or men are so invested with Power from Christ to execute outward Laws , &c. Which still shews thy oppositions and objections before rehearsed , and clears thy opponent from the foul Imputations of Impious Prevaricator , down right Forger , Impious Prevaricating Pen-man , &c. and thy self a notorious Slanderer therein , as well as shews thy inadvertency and overly shuffling , and foully slubbering over matters under debate and controversie , and with what blunt and dull tools and weapons thou art toiling and fighting . Howbeit , we may hear W. R. a little further , in his attempts to clear himself , and prove his charge of false Suggestion , Impious Prevaricator , &c. he alledges chiefly two things , viz. 1st , That he owns the Government of Christ in his Church , knowing that 't is his right to govern his Church ; which W. R. also confesseth , The Pen-man signifies he understands by Church-Government . Observe by the way ; this is general , and not an Answer sufficient to clear him ; 't will not do his business . Against whom did he alledge this , when we never questioned Christ's Government in his Church ? But the Pen-man and his Friends ( viz. the peaceable People call'd Quakers ) own Christs Government , both in the inward and in the outward parts of it , both as he governs and rules immediately by his Spirit , and instrumentally by his faithful Servants invested with power and wisdom from him , as before explained ; which I find not that W. R. hath owned with any consistency or clearness , but has appeared very inconsistent , opposit and frequently contradictory both to us and to himself in the matter , saying and unsaying ( first in one Book , then in another ) as is fully evinced in our Treatise , entituled , The Accuser , &c. ( as from p. 83 , to p. 91. and from p. 204 , to p. 227. ) and also in this . 2 dly , He alledges , that he has testified , That the Apostles labours were to establish the Churches in the Faith and in the Power , leaving them so established , to be in the practice of THAT FORM which the Power either had or should lead them into . Moreover , ( saith W. R. ) My proceedings in the Marriage of two Daughters within three years last past , and frequent concern amongst Friends in taking care that no proceedings in Marriages may be permitted in any such private Methods as may be scandalous to Truth , shews my practice and principle to be otherwise — And indeed I can in Truth say , That I never had a thought entred in my Breast , that OUTWARD ORDER , Methods , Forms and Discipline were not to be exercised , and proceeded in * under the Government of Christ , according as the Spirit of the Lord should direct and guide , p. 42. [ Thus far W. R ] Observe ; He has here given a very fair and ample concession to Truth in words , viz. 1st , To the Apostles labours for the Churches establishment in the Faith and in the Power . 2dly , To the practice of that Form which the Power should lead them into . 3dly , To his care in the Marriage of his two Daughters , and others , that NO Proceedings in Marriages may be permitted in any such private Methods as may be scandalous to Truth . 4thly , To outward Order , Methods , Forms and Discipline , that they are to be exercised and proceeded in under Christ's Government , according as his spirit directs and guides . Are they so ? A fair confession ! Had he alwayes kept to this method and language , and so been consistent with himself , the Controversie had been in a narrow compass . But though he seems seriously to say , That he never had a thought entred his breast , that outward Order , Methods , Form and Discipline were not to be exercised and proceeded in under the Government of Christ , I query , ( on his contradiction ) how they should be exercised and proceeded in under Christs Government in his Church , if so be it cannot consist with the tenor of the new Covenant for any to give forth outward Orders , Sentences , Decrees , & c ? Or if Christ doth invest none with Power from on high to establish such things relating to Conscience ( as outward Order , Methods , Forms , Discipline , & c ? ) Or if no visible Persons be invested with power from Christ to execute outward Laws , Prescriptions , Order , & c ? How then are outward Order , Methods , Forms and Discipline to be exercised and proceeded in under Christ's Government ? And who are to exercise and proceed in them , if not visible Persons ? May not they declare and practise outwardly what they have received from Christ inwardly ? How then shall the Law go forth of Sion , and the Word from Jerusalem ? But if he grants that some persons are made instrumental under Christs Government , to give forth good outward Methods , Forms , Order , Discipline , &c. but not to be a bond on the Consciences of others who have believed in the everlasting Light : This appears contradictory again : ( William , was thy proceedings in the Marriage of two Daughters , and thy care that Truth might not be scandalized , no bond upon thine or their Consciences ? ) How are outward Methods , Forms , Order and Discipline then to be practised and proceeded in under Christ's Government ? Must they be so practised , exercised and proceeded in by Believers , without Conscience , or without Obligation , or being binding upon their Consciences ? Strange Doctrine , loose and confused , and not consistent with any Religious tender Conscience towards God or Christ , which requires all to be done in his name , and to his glory . But after all our Opposers variations , inconsistencies and whirlings , he is fled to this Refuge , or rather Subterfuge , viz. That his writing shews dislike to Man's Pretence to establish outward Orders , relating to matters of Conscience , as the Order of the Gospel , or to take upon him the giving forth of any outward Rules , &c. relating to Faith and Discipline in the Church , with intent that they should become a Bond upon others to submit thereto , further than from a Recommendation unto the Conscience , a service may be seen therein , according to the measure of Light given , &c. pag. 41. Observe , 1 st , This censures only MAN's PRETENCE to establish outward Orders relating to Conscience , &c. 2dly , Man's taking upon him to give forth any outward Rules in Faith or Discipline in the Church , with intent they should become a Bond upon others , to submit further than ( from a Recommendation to the Conscience ) a service MAY be seen therein , according to the measure of Light given , &c. Whereupon 't is to be noted , first , That this does not oppose the Spirit of Christ , making use of man or men , as instrumental to establish or give forth outward Orders , Rules , &c. relating to Conscience , Faith or Discipline in the Church , to be submitted unto . 2 dly , Nor such outward Orders , Rules , &c. as a service may be seen in , according to the measure of the true Light given . But only a dislike to MAN's PRETENCE & TAKING VPON HIM therein . Which I understand is intended , as without the true Spirits Guidance . Which appears still to be an Abatement and Extinuation of his more general reiterated Opposition and Noise against ANY giving forth outward Orders , Prescriptions , &c. or being invested with Power from Christ to execute outward Laws , Orders , &c. under Christs inward Government , because the new Covenant and its Law is inward . For now he only opposeth Man's Pretence and Taking upon him in these cases ; and who must be Judge that he is but a Pretendor , and an Actor in his own will , if the Rules , Directions or Laws he declares or gives out be in themselves Honest , Lawful and Just , yea Convenient and Needful , not of Man , nor by the Will of Man ? Were not this to judge of Spirits without outward evidence or proof against them ? But if our Opposer would place the Controversie against some Rules , Orders , &c. among us , as being in themselves either unjust , unlawful or dishonest , and could make sufficient proof thereof , that would both greatly narrow and soon determine the Controversie : For that can be no good nor true Spirit that gives forth bad or unjust Laws , otherwise we have no reason to give credit to him in his bitterly smiting with words of hatred against any Men or Persons among us , whilst speaking , ministring or acting things just , lawful or honest , and needful , as bound in Conscience to declare and advise others to practise , ( and which he must grant them Liberty both to speak and act , or else hee 'l miserably interfer with his pretended Liberty of Conscience ) Seeing whatsoever things are honest , just and of good report , are to be thought on and practised . That W. R's great Book aforesaid ( as it is against R. B's Book for Church-Government ) is against Church-Government , so far as it relates to an outward Form of Church-Government , outward Order , Rules , Methods , &c. And this is no Prevarication , as now he renders it , as is evident from divers passages before recited , and by himself frequently contradicted . § . 4. Also , 't is a manifest falshood , where W. R. saith , That the Prevaricating Pen-man doth not quote any Sentence of his , confuted by his asserting , ( in a Paper dated London , 26th of the 3d Moneth , 1673. ) That God hath in his Wisdom afforded those Helps and Governments in the Churches , which are not to be despised , being in subjection to Christ the one Head and Law-giver , &c. [ This was signed by W. R. among other Friends ] pag. 42. If no visible Persons be invested with Power from Christ to execute outward Laws , Orders , &c. in an outward Form of Church-Government ; Or if it be Popery , or like the Pope , or inconsistent with the New Covenant so to do , ( as he has insinuated ) what and where are those Helps and Governments , which God in his Wisdom hath afforded in his Churches , in subjection to Christ ? Are no visible Persons instrumental therein by the Power of Christ ? Or are they Helps and Governments , or helpers in Government without visible Persons ? Were Apostles , Prophets , Teachers , Elders , Overseers , &c. in the Christian Churches no visible Persons , or not so indued with Power from Christ to be helpers in the Government ? See 1 Cor. 12 28. I confess I know not how to reconcile our Opposer to himself in these matters , no more than I can find Reason or Proof for his black Charges of Impious Prevaricating Pen-man ; Oh Impious Prevaricator ! perverse and hard Heart ; qualified like a proud Prelate ; The Pen-man's Iniquity ; angry Waspish Pen , &c. [ Thus he . ] I must needs say , he 's far more loud in his Censures than in 's Proofs . If our Opposer did impartially consider and compare William Penn's Address to Protestants , quoted by him , he would see there 's no Lash to the Pen-man ( as he falsly affirms ) seeing W. P. grants , that the one Shepherd may have many Servants , p. 44. And on 2 Cor. 4.1 , 2. He further saith , Here is the utmost Imposition the Apostle makes use of ; He requires not men to receive him without Evidence , &c. p. 44. No more do we , whom Christ hath called forth in his Service and Ministry , in this his day , who by the manifestation of Truth , commend our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of God , having renounced the hidden things of Dishonesty , &c. Here 's no cause to complain for want of Evidence , or of Imposition without Evidence , in plainly discovering or shewing the hidden things of dishonesty . Truth in its manifestation , both in the Ministry and in the Hearers Conscience , is Evidence , both against what 's Dishonest , and for what 's Honest : God would not have Men blind in their Duty , their own Negligence and Prejudice is cause of blindness . Nor hath this Person convicted us of pleading for or setting up Imposition without Evidence in the Conscience , or of Imposing a blind Obedience , or putting any Persons thereupon ; No , my very Soul is against that . And though W. P. also has writ against Imposition without Conviction ; the Pen-man seems to have no other sence , nor doth it follow that he is either against Church Discipline , outward Order or Form of Church-Government ( but for these ) in the Church of Christ and Christian Societies ; he being Principl'd for the true Church , having Power from Christ to give Judgment , spiritual Censures and Sentences against all dark Spirits that sow Discord and make Division , and against all ungodly , loose , disorderly and scandalous walking and walkers under profession of Truth . I 'le adventure to quote William Penn's Address to Protestants , to shew his Principle and Sence in these matters : In page 214. he saith , No Scripture-Church-Discipline is hereby oppugned or weakned : Let not the Sentence end in Violence upon the Conscience unconvinced . Let whoso will expound or determine , so it be according to true Church-Discipline , which can be exercised on them only , who have willingly joyn'd themselves in that Covenant of Union , &c. P. 215. Let us observe what sort of Church-Government the Apostle recommends ; Avoid foolish Questions and Contentions , &c. A man that is an Heretick after the first and second Admonition , reject , &c. And on Phil. 3.15 . He did not say , You shall be Fined , Pillaged , Excommunicated , and flung into Prison , if ye be not of our mind . P. 216. on 2 Tim. 2.22 , 23 , 24 , 25. Here is both Faith and Government , Religion and Duty , all that becomes us towards God , our Brethren , our Neighbours , yea , our Opposers and Enemies . And W. P. in his Brief Examination and State of Liberty Spiritual , he doth more particularly explain and clear the Point , to Friends , first in his Epistle , saying , Christ's Liberty is obtained through his Cross ; they that would be his Free-men must be his Bonds-men , and wear his blessed Yoke : His Liberty is from Sin , not to Sin ; to do his will , not our own . And secondly , he speaks farther to it in the said Examination . Observe ; Here W. P. pleads not for a Liberty of Conscience , in opposition to true Church-Government , Discipline or Order , but to those outward Penalties , Persecutions and Punishments , corporal and pecuniary , mentioned and opposed by him and the rest of us , which is no Liberty to make Division or Discord in the Church of Christ or Society of Believers , § . 5. To the Question , Whether the Church of Christ hath Power in any cases , that are matters of Conscience , to give a positive Sentence and Decision , which may be obligatory upon Believers ? To this R. B. answers affirmatively , SHE HATH , Anarch . p. 48. And , Whereas R. B. pleaded for the Church of Christ having Power in SOME CASES of Conscience to give a positive Sentence or Decision , which may be obligatory upon Believers . ( To this W. R. saith ) Which clearly shews to us R. B 's meaning to be , That in some cases the Consciences of Believers ought to be bound by the positive Sentences of others . ( To which he adds ) Without leaving any Liberty for a Believer to refuse to submit on the account of not seeing it his duty to submit . This meaning and Government ( saith W. R. ) over Believers , we take to be contrary to the Principle of Truth and Liberty we have in Christ Jesus , &c. p. 44. Herein he appears both unfair in his citation , and mistaken in his construction : For 1 st , The [ some cases ] intended , ( wherein a positive Judgment or Sentence from some Members or Believers is binding upon others ) are such Cases , Wherein only the Truth , the Spirit of God doth give the Judgment through some or other in the Church of Christ. The only proper Judge of Controversies in the Church , is the Spirit of God , and the power of deciding solely lies in it ( saith R. B. ) Anarch . pag. 66. As also , That God hath ordinarily in communicating his Will under his Gospel , employed such whom he made use of in gathering his Church , and in feeding & watching over them , though not excluding others . Thus R. B's Anarchy of the Ranters , p. 67 , 68. Observe here , that he placeth the Judgment or Sentence ( as binding , and to be submitted unto by others ) professing the same Faith ) on the Truth , the Spirit of God , the Will of God. 2 dly , And therefore the Judgment is not placed upon any Imposition of Government over Believers , contrary to the Principle of Truth or Liberty that 's in Christ Jesus ; for the Judgment of Truth , or of the holy Spirit , which unites in one Mind and Judgment , cannot be contrary to that Principle , nor without evidence in the Conscience for conviction to oblige , and the Conscience thus obliged is not without true sight , sence or knowledge of duty therein , because 't is Conscience obliged , not a blind affection . So 't is not to impose a blind Submission , though some's want of perswasion may probably proceed from their being hardened ( through Rebellion ) as R. B. intimates , Anarch . p. 67. And their contradiction in that case will not excuse them from being guilty of disobeying God , because it is from his Spirit the sentence proceeds ; and 't is their duty both to see , receive & submit to what 's justly required . The intent of the Spirit of God in giving forth Judgment or Sentences through his Servants ( to end Controversie , &c. ) doth not bespeak or intend any design of such Imposition , as to enforce any upon a blind Submission or Obedience , in such a hardened Condition ; for the Spirit of Christ strives with them to open their Eyes , and enlighten their Understandings , that they may see and know in their own Consciences first , their Duty , and then submit in what is according to the will of God , being the judgment of his Spirit , which makes its way with its own evidence to the Consciences and Hearts of Persons , if not wholly harden'd through Rebellion against God's Spirit in themselves : For the Testimony of the Lord is sure , making Wise the Simple . The Commandment of the Lord is pure , ENLIGHTNING the Eyes , Psal. 19. 3 dly , Then what power or freedom can any Minister or Servant of Christ have , to leave any liberty for a believer to refuse submission to the judgment of the Spirit of Christ in his servants or believers where Christ leaves none ? or to grant that he may not see it his duty to submit , and thereupon to refuse when the spirit of Christ ( who knows the Creatures capacity ) gives the Judgment , and requires Submission ? There 's no just ground nor pretence for such Indulgence , which tends to Rebellion and Ranterism , but rather for the Servants of Christ to be faithful and stedfast in their Testimony and Judgment , which they know is both in it self Just , and proceeding from his Spirit . Whether it be by others received or rejected : He that hath an Ear to hear , let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches ; which doth many times speak through Instruments as formerly . And further , 't is neither a false sence , nor wicked construction , to say , That our Opposer being for a Liberty for Believers to refuse to submit on account of not seeing it their duty : Therefore , that Believers ( who are members of Christ's Church ) may refuse submission to their Brethren in things that are in themselves Just and Reasonable , according to the Law of Truth in the Conscience , on pretence of not seeing it their duty , &c. I do sincerely profess , I do not find a more natural construction that our Opposers own Words ( being without distinction ) will bear , all material and precedent Causes and Circumstances of this very point in Controversie considered . For first ; The Submission pleaded for by R. B. among Believers , and in the Church , was to the Judgment and positive Sentence proceeding from the Spirit of God or Christ in his Church and Servants . Secondly ; Our Adv●rsary's opposing the Church of Christ's having Power in any cases of Conscience , to give positive Sentence or Decision , which may be obligatory on Believers , rendring this a Government over Believers , contrary to the Principle of Truth and Liberty in Christ Jesus : See Accuser , &c. from p. 62 , to 81. When no other Submission is pleaded for , nor any other intended by us , than to such Judgment or Sentence as originally proceeds from the Spirit of Truth , which is agreeable to the will and mind of God. Now , doth not our Adversary's opposition tend to divide Believers and the Church of Christ , as well as from a true sight and performance of their Duty , in cases wherein the Spirit of Christ gives the Judgment ( which must needs be just and reasonable . ) For to the Question , Whether the Church of Christ hath Power in ANY CASES of Conscience , to give positive sentence , which may be obligatory upon Believers ? R. B. Answers affirmatively , SHE HATH , Anarch . p. 48. To which W. R. replyes , This Government over Believers is contrary to the Principle of Truth and Liberty in Christ Jesus . Doth not this plainly imply , that in NO CASES of Conscience a Believer is bound to submit to the positive sentence of the Church of Christ , or other Members thereof , but that a Believer may refuse Submission , On the account of not seeing it his Duty to submit . ( This is W. R's great pretence and supposition ) and this [ in ANY CASES of Conscience ] without distinction . ( The terms of the Question and Opposition before cited being general : ) Which supposed Blindness and Discord in Believers I cannot grant him against any true or sincere Believers , who are faithful to Christ in their measures of Grace received ; such will neither want a sight of those Dutyes , or things the Spirit of Christ teacheth and requireth of them ; nor submission one to another therein , but in humbleness of mind submit themselves one to another in the fear of God , Ephes. 5.1.21 . Here the Younger submits to the Elder , and all one to another , being clothed with Humility ; for God resisteth the Proud , but giveth Grace to the Humble , 1 Pet. 5.5 . This Humility and Submission was among the Primitive Christians , and was very commendable among them ; and none but the Proud oppose it . And farther , the Sentence , Judgment and Determination proceeding from the Spirit of Christ in the midst of his Church , is Binding in Heaven and Earth ; and he that will not hear the Church ( where Christ is in the midst ) is to be accounted as an Heathen Man. More-ever , our Lord Jesus Christ knows how much or how little a burthen to proportion and lay upon his sincere and true Followers , from the greatest to the least of them , suitable to their Capacities : He knows our Weaknesses , and is touched with the feeling of our Infirmities , and hath raised up a Spiritual fellow-feeling of one anothers states and conditions , that we might bear each others Burthens , the strong to bear with and help the weak , and so fulfill the Law of Christ. But seeing our Opposer at length ( to acquit himself ) gives us this Concession , pag. 45. viz. I do say , a Believer in Christ ought to submit to any reasonable just Judgment ( answering the Truth in the Conscience ) when it relates to him , let it spring from whom it will , I shall say the less in this point . But ( William ) hast thou been always of this mind ? If thou hast , thou art very inconsistent in thy writing , and greatly wrongest thy self by Self-contradictions ; and then what signifies all thy opposing R. B. for pleading a consciencious Submission in Believers to the positive judgment or sentence , which ( as he saith ) proceeds from the Spirit of God in some or other of their Brethren in the Church of Christ ? What amounts all thy work of Opposition and Gain-saying unto ? Now a Believer in Christ ought to submit to any Reasonable just judgment , let it spring from whom it will. And sure , all judgment proceeding from the Spirit of God ( in any of his Servants ) is just and reasonable ; for whatsoever is unjust , is not of God , but to be rejected : The Controversie is not there . § . 6. Again ( William ) upon our words , viz. [ God preserve his people from this Libertine Spirit ] thou falsly notest , That ( by the Pen-man's discourse ) a Believer's refual to submit to the Church , on account of not seeing it his Duty to submit , is the fruit of a Libertine Spirit , &c. p. 45. [ A Believer's refusal to submit to the Church ] is a begging the Question , and fallacy ; for I do not own that any true Believer will REFVSE to submit to the Church of Christ in any thing that Christ , commands , or is in it self his just duty towards God or his Neighbour [ on the account of not seeing it his duty ] is again a begging the Question . If it be his Duty and required of him by the Spirit of God in his servants , the same spirit ( if he minds it ) quickly makes an immediate discovery of it to ( and impression on ) his Conscience , it being his duty both to see and submit to what Truth and Justice require of him ; so as the sincere and tender-hearted , though but weak in the Faith for a time , are preserved on the one hand from Rebellion , and from Refusing that submission which the Lord requires , and on the other hand from running into a blind Obedience . For put case there be a little space of time , that one weak in the faith sees not presently every thing that may be required by the Lord in his People , as duty , he does not therefore REFVSE Submission , but waits patiently on the Lord , to clear up his way , and reveal his duty therein ; and though whilst thus waiting for satisfaction and clearness , he 's neither refusing nor opposing that which he has not a clearness of judgment in . Want of sight , or clearness in such cases of Conscience , is no just ground for Refusal , Rejection or Opposition , no more than for any to act in a blind Obedience or ignorant Devotion , without satisfaction in Faith or Conscience . Let but blind Opposition and Refusal as well as blind Obedience be laid aside , and we shall have quietness ; for though neither be good , yet blind Opposition is the worst of the two . For there 's yet a Medium between Refusal and Active Submission , viz. A WAITING passively and patiently until God reveal his will in this or that particular thing required by him as duty . Again , thou dost both scornfully and fallaciously proceed against the Pen-man in these words , viz. 'T is plain to me , that he ( reputing himself a Church-Governour ) is thirsting after such a sort of Subjects that may be willing to follow his Track , though they know not whether it be right or wrong , p 45. I presume thou meanest my self , as that Pen-man that so affects being a Governour , or so reputeth , as thou hast before twitted the Pen-man with having forgotten his low and mean Estate ( telling him how the very conceit of being a Governour in an outward Government , is very apt to puff up Persons of some sort of Qualifications , pag. 25. ) If thou intendest me herein , thou hast taken wrong measures , and hast given me Scurrillous and Abusive Characters ; and then thou art grosly mistaken in thy judgment , That I thirst after such ignorant Subjects , as thou importest . The Lord hath raised me up to open peoples Eyes , and to turn them from Darkness to Light ; and God , the Righteous Judge , who knows my heart , and whom I serve with my spirit in the Gospel of his Son , he knows 't is my delight in Humility , to serve him therein , and to see People turned from Darkness to the true Light , and from their Ignorance and Error to the knowledge of the Truth in the spirit and power of it in themselves , that they may walk in the Path of Life , and be saved ; and no otherwise to follow me , than as they may see me walk therein . So knowing my Integrity and Humility in the sight and presence of God , who hath thorowly searched and tryed me , that I affect neither Popularity nor Greatness , I do the less value thy Reproaches , and all the bitter Invectives that thou canst bring forth against me . My innocent Life reigns over thy hatred , and shall out-live thy envy and scorn . And as thou hast laid a false foundation against the Pen-man , as judging him a Person thirsting after such sort of ignorant Subjects , as before related ; so thy Superstructure raised by supposition is impertinent , trifling and fallacious . For , 1 st , Where have any of us ( whom thou smitest at ) either from a Meeting yearly , or else-where , in giving forth ( as thou callest them ) certain Sentences , Decrees and Orders ( directed to the rest of the People called Quakers ) therewith signified to them , 'T is your Duty to submit , whether you see it your Duty or no ? p. 45. I am sure , this is forreign to my ( and my Brethrens ) Language and Intention . If it intends an active Obedience before men see their real duty , which none can acceptably perform , nor is it my Principle to urge them upon practice until their Eyes be opened to see their duty therein , yet peoples present Ignorance of their Duty ( when proposed or told them in the spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ ) is no warrant for them to oppose , refuse , resist or reject it , but rather tenderly and quietly to weigh & consider of it before the Lord , and wait in his Light till he reveal it , resolve the doubts and remove the scruples . 2 dly , Moreover , that which hath a tendency to Confusion , Rebellion and Ranterism , was thy undervaluing the Authority of the Church of Christ in such a Judgment or Decision given thereby as proceeds from the Spirit of God , ( for 't was no other that R. B. argued for in the case ) by thy pleading ( in opposition ) for leaving a liberty therein for a Believer to refuse to submit on the account of not seeing it his duty to submit , with other circumstances of Looseness and Confusion , proceeding from thy opposite , loose confused Spirit of Prejudice and Division : This has a tendency to Confusion , Rebellion and Ranterism , which we placed not meerly on a Non-submission or Forbearance of Practice , for want of seeing it their duty to act therein . For 't is possible some Members may want a present sight in some things required by the Church of Christ and his Spirit , and yet they not thence allow themselves a liberty to Refuse submission , but rather to wait in their measures till God reveal his mind therein , in which cases there 's a tender sence and forbearance one to another ▪ and this does not tend to Confusion , Rebellion or Ranterism ; but thy plea for the leaving a liberty for Believers to refuse to submit to the judgment and decision of the Church of Christ , and for the same insisting on their not seeing it their Duty to submit , when the judgment of the Church of Christ , pleaded for on our parts , is no other than what proceeds from his Spirit , or Christ himself as being present in his Church . This thy Libertine plea tends to divide the Church of Christ , and to leave Believers , ( who are Members thereof ) in a liberty both of denying submission , and in an ignorance or blindness concerning what the spirit of Christ in his Church may require of them , which I cannot grant thee that any sincere Believer is either so to be left in such a liberty of REFVSAL , nor yet remains in such Ignorance ; for he that will not hear the Church ( where Christ is in the midst ) is to be accounted as an Heathen man. Therefore thy Plea tending to divide and make Believers Heathen , is contrary to our Principle and Testimony received from the beginning , which is , That Life answers Life : The Spirit of Truth receives its own in men ; every living true Member in some degree feels what proceeds from its Life in other Members , though all Christ's Members are not come to the same measure and degree of growth , strength and understanding , yet there 's so much inward sence and nearness in his Life and Faith , as preserves them from Confusion , Rebellion and Opposition to one another , or to any thing the Spirit of Christ saith unto the Churches by any of them . Thy putting and supposing Cases against us that are not , thy arguing from Generals to Particulars , from Principles to Persons , from a Plea for the Church of Christ ( and its obliging Judgment proceeding from his Spirit ) to reflect upon particular Persons ( as the Pen-man and his Brethren , John and George and Stephen , &c. p 45. ) are empty , trifling and impertinent , and as vain and silly is the Laughter and Scorn which thereupon thou supposest , and wouldst stir up against the Pen-man , and his Brethren , all grounded upon a false bottom , namely , thy uncharitable and false sence and censure against the Pen-man , viz. That he is thirsting after such a sort of Subjects that may be willing to follow his Track , though they know not whether it be right or wrong : Which is so utterly false ( if thou intendest me ) that such a desire never entred into my Heart ; my Soul abominates such a Principle as to lead People on in such blindness . Again , I do not make the reason of my Discourse depend on a meer supposition , nor yet on a bear affirmation , that I and my Brethren are the Church , & thou and thine not ; we are now on the defensive part , and thou art not able to unchurch us ; we may give testimony of our Faith , and to our sence of the presence of Christ with us and among us , & of our continuance in Love & Unity in him , and against thine and others Apostacy , and thou not able to confute us . The reason of our Discourse ( in the present Controversie ) depends not on Persons , but on undeniable Principles and Practices , agreeable both to divine Testimony , Revelation & undeniable Evidence amongst men . And wherein any of us have been moved of the Lord in his holy zeal to give positive Judgment , either concerning Spirits , Persons or Practices , that appear not yet so evident to some as to us , the day will make further discovery and declare it , and the Lord will appear witness and evidence in the case . And thou shalt then find , that thy Scorn , and the Laughter and Scorn thou hast supposed ( and sought to stir up ) against us , will be turn'd into sorrow on thy part ; and thou mayst be ashamed of thy scorn and laughter , and of comparing our Treatment with the Papistical Parties towards the Protestants , and telling of following the Pen-mans Papistical Track , p. 46. All grounded on thy false sence before-cited , though to me all thy Scorn , Laughter , false Comparisons and Rattles ( thou knowest what I mean ) are all but like the Crackling of Thorns under a Pot. It 's observable , that in thy Epistle to the Reader , &c. thou art for taking up a Lamentation for the Apostacy of your Brethren , as thy pretence is : Now thou art for Scorn and Laughter against them thou so censurest ; yea , to the Presbyterians Laughter and Scorn thou art exposing R. R. and for those Instances he gives for Deconesses in the Gospel-times , p. 33. though this be a Truth , which many Protestant Authors have confirmed , besides Paul's own commendation of their Sister Phebe , whom he called , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Ministra , A Servant of the Church at Cenchrea , Rom. 16.1 , 2. There were Women-Deacons , who in their places did service in the Churches , with respect to the Sick and Impotent , &c. But to return , one while thou pretendest to pray for the Pen-man , That the Lord would mollifie his hard heart , p. 42. another while art for causing Scorn and Laughter against him [ Thus but in pag. 46. ] Thus thy hypocritical Lamenting , Praying and thy Scorning do much resemble thy confused Work. And what such things are they thou insinuatest against the Pen-man and his Brethren ? Of which thou sayst , Thou couldst soon lay a new Foundation to prove him and his Brethren guilty of such things , as by his Rule would tend to Confusion , Rebellion and Ranterism , and what not ? p. 46. What things are those ? We expect no mercy nor favour from thee ; thou hast rendred us as obnoxious , I think , as of thy self thou canst . And this thy general and dark way of smiting ( with what things thou couldst prove the Pen-man and his Brethren guilty of , as tending to Rebellion and Ranterism , without mentioning what things , is very unfairly to raise great suspicion against us , and to render us highly Criminal , Odious and Obnoxious , some-what like the Treatment we had in those Abusive , Scurrillous , Atheistical and Slanderous Pamphlets , stil'd , The Quakers Qu●bbles . How now William ! Is this thy Conscience , thy Charity , thy Christianity , thy Love pretended ? and the end of thy feigned Lamentation and Praying for us , thus to abuse us , and cast dirt upon us , after this general implicit and suspicious manner ? Is not such deceitful , injurious and contradictory Dealing rather contrary to common Morality and Civility amongst men ? Thy Prayer , conclusive of thy second Chapter , pag. 46. is mixt with as much Falshood and Envy ( as the other stuff is with Scorn ) in these words , viz. The Lord preserve us all from following the Pen-man's uncharitable Papistical Track , lest thereby we should not only merit the Indignation of God , but justly be accused by men of understanding , of so much Delusion , Weakness or Wickedness , as ( considering our antient professed Principles , and Practices ) might render us unworthy the favour of a true Protestant , a derision to the Heathen , and a scorn to Fools themselves . I am sure this Prayer appears not without Wrath and doubting ; 't is not offered in Charity , nor with Holy Hands ; 't is more like a Cain's Sacrifice ; 't is to slay the Christian and Protestant Reputation of him ( and those ) thou writest against , to render him not only one that has merited the Indignation of God , but one in a Papistical Track , unworthy the favour of a true Protestant , and so obnoxious to the outward Penal Laws , seeing ( by thy Words ) If you should follow his Track ▪ you should SO merit , be SO justly accused and rendred , as thy Prayer intimates . Herein thou dost not only assume the place of a Judge over us ( contrary to thy own Principle , especially that in the Paper which thou hast exposed as E. B's to Judge no man under any Pretence whatsoever ) But also thou hast set the Heathen to judge and deride such among us as ( in thy account ) go from their antient Principles and Practices , and such also to be a scorn to Fools . But must the Heathen and Fools be such absolute Judges in Church-Affairs , as over Apostates , & c ? Why dost thou then so much contend against and oppose R ▪ B. for pleading the authority of the Church of Christ , as having power in some cases of Conscience to give positive Sentence or Decision obligatory upon Believers ? Or why hast pleaded a Liberty for a Believer's refusing submission thereunto , on account of not seeing it his duty to submit ? Must the Heathen be allowed a greater Power and Clearness in positive Judgment than the Church of Christ or Believers ? But if the said Pen-man hath rendred himself so deluded , so weak or wicked , so unworthy the favour of a true Protestant , such a derision to the Heathen and scorn to Fools , as thou dost import . Then it must needs be a great undervaluing to such a great and popular Person of Knowledge and Parts ( as thou wouldst seem to be ) so much to trouble thy Head , and to spend so much time , toyle , labour and charge ( as thou hast done ) against su●h an inconsiderable , weak , mean , contemptible Person ( as thou dost represent the Pen-man ) yet one whose writing doth not shew him a meer Fool , ( thou sayest ) P. 45. It seems hee 's one who is but a little wiser or better ( in thy esteem ) than a meer Fool. How lofty and high art thou ? How conceited and wise in thy own Eyes ? God will abase thee , I am perswaded . CHAP. V. § . 1. W. R's Trifling against the Pen-man about his own Concessions to Truth . His abuse of the People called Quakers , as having such kinds of Declarations , frequently publisht among them as are unsound ( and of a Popish tendence ) about shutting out the Wisdom of all kinds , without distinction , and his now mincing the matter reflecting about proving Negatives , and his shufling and shifting , on his not mentioning Time , Place or Persons . § . 2. About his mis-expressing himself , how it might be excusable . W. R. can never come off clearly by those Instances he gave in his Postscript , to prove his proceeding to Print , Righteous . But his Fallacy still remains upon him , in that his chief Instance of the printed Epistle of two Sheets , by Anne Whitehead and Mary Elson , not Writ nor Printed till long after he had proceeded to Print ; His Fallacy therein made more and more notorious § . 3. About the Tree of Knowledge : W. R's late Doctrine rendring it good for Food ; but now denying that he has written any thing to shew his own sence either way . His saying and unsaying , Fallacy and Impertinency apparent in this point . § . 4. Of his straining G. F's Words ( about setting up outward things ) besides his Intention ; His gross and reproachful Construction ; His dark smiting and suggestion against Preachers among the Quakers , to render them exalted and imperious Imposers , WITHOUT GIVING A REASON WHY , &c. § . 5. His Story of Jealousies being entred Thousands against our travelling Brethren , and what Jealousies incredible and unreasonable . § . 6. About the Tree of Knowledge again , Whether W. R. esteem it good for Food or not : He still shifts and writes manifest untruth , in denying his own Words , to shew either opposition or assent to such Doctrine ( i. e. that 't is good for Food . ) His fallacious Evasion and Impertinency return'd more home and closely upon him . § . 7 ▪ Concerning Tythes . W. R's late Objection and loose Answer farther examined , and the tendency thereof ( and of what he now further saith ) for the Payment of TYTHES FREELY to the National Ministry , and now to any use whatsoever , without regard to humane Institution or claim of divine Right . His Apostacy and evading our antient Testimony in this point ; and his fallacious Insinuations and Reflections made obvious . § . 8. W. R. cannot clear himself of his Erronious Doctrine of Circumcision being a Christian Liberty , or in a Christian Liberty , &c. which was a legal Bondage and Yoke , observed for a time in submission to Moses's Law , and not to Christ's Doctrine , wherein was a Christian forbearance , not Christian Liberty in the Practice . W. R's scorn and falshood about the LAITY , to render us Popish , &c. § . 1. TO thy occasion taken on the title Disaffection in the Contents of our Treatise [ viz. That if the Writer's words may be taken , to shew the meaning of his mind , then he is disaffected with thy very Concession to Truth , &c. ] pag. 46. cap. 3. This is meer trifling and idle ▪ Those Concessions of thine to the Truth are so excepted , by being distinctly noted both in the Contents and Book , as being Concessions to the Truth ( in Confutation to thy self and much of thy Book ) which being thus plainly exprest by the Writer , thou canst not justly construe his Words , as shewing his meaning to be that he is disaffected with such Concession to Truth . This is an abuse to be sure . Because that in our observation on the 5th Disaffection , we utterly denyed and judged as a falshood and abuse to the People called Quakers , thy saying , That these kinds of Declarations frequently published amongst the aforesaid People , viz. Let us exclude the Reasoning , the Wisdom and the Iealousie , and let us have an Eye to the Brethren ; yea , to shut out the Wisdom and Reason of All kinds , without Distinction , [ according as thou relatest in thy Christian-Quaker , part 1. Pref. p. 6. and p. 18 , & 27. ] On our denying and judging this as a Falshood , and horrid Abuse and Scandalous , thou art pleased to reflect upon the Pen-man as very ignorant , void of sound Argument , and Obnoxious to the censure of ingenious Readers , as being in his own sence capable to prove any sort of Negatives whatsoever , p. 47. That 's a falshood William , the Pen-man hath no such sence : But by the way observe how unfairly thou art shifting here instead of proving thy Charge , That these kinds of Declarations are frequently publisht amongst the aforesaid People called Quakers . Now in thy last citation , where thou sayest , viz. I intimate as if this Doctrine had been publisht amongst us , &c. p. 47. Here thou mincest the matter , and leavest out the Words frequently , and the said People , which do render the Fact more notorious and general , and the more rational for us to deny it , and to judge it as thy gross abuse against the said People , which is not to prove any sort of Negatives whatsoever ; We first give our Negative to thy Charge in the terms of it , then our Judgment : It concern'd thee to make it good then , and not to put us off with Flams and Jeers ; and now tell us , Thou didst not mention either Time , Place or Person : At that rate it may be a hard matter to prove Negatives against thee indeed . — Though thy charge be never so false , so long as thou canst prevaricate , and also vary the matter from a popular and publication , to a particular Person , Time and Place , ( and neither tell us who , when or where ) — as FROM these kind of Declarations frequently publisht among the People called Quakers . TO this Doctrine had been publisht amongst us : Yet I did not mention either Time , Place or Person , p. 47. Like as to say , You must take all the matter upon my Credit : You must pin your Faith upon my Sleeve : If you deny and judge what I say as an abuse , I have a cunning way to shift it , instead of making probation . I can tell you , I did not mention , Time , Place or Person : 'T is void of sound Argument for you to go about to prove any sort of Negatives , &c. But William , this kind of shifting , and then retorting and scorning , will not gain thee Credit nor Reputation , in thy mean and feeble attempts to prove the People called Quakers frequently under such a kind of Ministry as is in it self Popish , and tending to Introduce Popery it self ( according to thy own Inference ) that is , Ignorance instead of Wisdom , Bondage instead of Freedom in Christ , Ignorance as the Mother of Devotion , &c. Answered in our Treatise , ACCVSER , &c. p. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. And not only so , but that some blind Zealots are Principled to have an Eye to the Brethren instead of the Light in himself ; as in thy Postscript to thy Christian-Quaker . But we can as well and truly deny that such Declarations ( as afore ) are frequently published among the People called Quakers , and judge it a horrid abuse and reflection on the said People , as we can deny that Jesuits frequently Preach among them , which is also an Abuse of some , and which thy Charge resembles . And 't is no absurdity to prove Negatives in some cases , either in Popular or Personal actions , if Testimonies of Eye and Ear witness may be of any Credit . As for Instance : The Question was put to a Meeting here in London ( the greatest part being antient grave Friends ) Where ever they heard such Doctrine preacht among the People called Quakers , as , To exclude or shut out Wisdom & Reason of all kinds , without Distinction , and to have an Eye to the Brethren , instead of the Light in themselves ? And they never heard such Preaching , nor any such Doctrine preached among the People called Quakers at all , either in City or Country , much less frequently . And their ( with many others ) negative Testimony , may be of credit in this case , else how should we answer those that falsly accuse us with Jesuits frequently preaching among us , but by our negative Testimony from our certain knowledge of those that do preach among us , that they are no such ? Put case any of our peaceable Meetings should by our Persecutors be charg'd with committing a Riot at such a time ▪ and place ; We deny the Charge and declare it to be utterly false , and produce evidence and proof sufficient and credible , ( in contradiction to it ) that our Meeting at such a time and place was in a peaceable posture , and nothing of violence or hurt done , offered or threatned , &c. Here ▪ we prove a Negative , that our Meeting was no Riot , by proving the Affirmative , that it was Peaceable . And what 's frequently preached among us in our publick Meetings is as publick as they . And set case a Person be falsly accused for committing Burglary at such a time and place , and he produces sufficient Evidence , that he lodged at an Inn twenty or thirty or forty Miles off at that very same time when the fact was done . Here he proves a Negative , i. e. that he did not commit the fact . § . 2. To thy saying , viz. If in his sence I mis-express my self , then my meaning shall not be taken to excuse the defect , p. 47. That 's not true ; for wouldst thou be so low in thy Mind , and so ingenious as either to confess such mis-expressing or defect , where we meet it , and clogg thee with it in thy writings , and not be tenacious therein , it would the more excuse thee , and shorten the Debate . I do not at all find , that thou canst come clearly off , as either a just or righteous man in thy Allegations and Instances in thy Postscript , for thy proceeding to print and publish thy great Book , by thy principal instance of the printed Epistle of two Sheets by Anne Whitehead and Mary Elson , which thine ( when nigh printed ) did occasion ; for that could not be the occasion of thine , when 't was not in being till thine was almost finished in the Press . Thou producest no Plea to clear thy self , but what 's presupposed , anticipated and way-laid in our said Treatise , pag. 26 , 27. However , by thee impertinently slighted as Impertinent . That the said Epistle was thy principal Instance for thy so proceeding , is no false Assertion , as thou wouldst make it , is evident from thy own account , on which 't is grounded : The matter is fully evinced in our said Treatise , under the tenth Disaffection , from page 19 , to pag. 37. Thy alledging , Thou only assertedst Promulgation of the said Epistle , to shew that they were the first Publishers in Print , but not the first Printers . Of what ? That there are Divisions , & c ? This will not clear thee , nor evince thy Righteousness in proceeding to print and publish thy Book , on thy Instance of the said Epistle of two Sheets , which on this occasion was chiefly thy concern to evidence and mention , and that in pursuance of thy own Justification , to prove thy Righteousness in proceeding to Print , which the other Instances given by thee ( about the publication of Divisions by Declaration by Manuscript ) do not answer nor seem to parallel , but that chief one of Printing . And what ? the said printed Epistle of two Sheets , though the greatest part of thy great Book was printed before that was writ ? To thy now confessing , That they ( i. e. Mary Elson and Anne Whitehead , &c. ) were the first Publishers in Print , but not the first Printers . Then their Publication could be no just plea nor instance for thy proceeding to Print , as thou didst . Thy not being the first Publisher , but they , does neither excuse thy intention as Righteous , nor thy act of first Printing : 'T was the bulkiness of thy Book that prevented its first Publication , and the smallness of theirs ( though not writ till after a great part of thine was printed ) that did expedite its publication . Thy saying , Thou only assertedst Promulgation of the said Epistle , is an evasion : 'T was in pursuance of thy pretence of Righteousness in thy proceeding to Print , as well as to promulgate or publish thy Book of Divisions , that thou gavest that instance of the said Epistle being printed . And as a supplement in thy Postscript , to what thou hadst writ in thy Preface and Introduction ( which thou judgedst might give sufficient satisfaction to every Impartial Reader ) but lest the Ignorance of any should be so great , as not from thence to perceive the Righteousness of thy proceeding to Print , they might by these Instances in thy Postscript , which therefore relate to the same proceeding that the Preface and Introduction do : See , the case is plain , 't is no evading it . Therefore thou appearest not ingenious in thy Allegation , viz. He represents not the state of the case aright ; for my own words were these , viz. My Present proceeding to Print ( the word [ Present ] they leave out ) which could not relate to any thing more than the Postscript , because the very Postscript informs the Reader , that All the Treatise , excepting the Postscript , Index and Errata , was then printed , p. 49. This will not render thee either a sincere or just man in thy proceeding ( William ) we do not leave out the word Present in the citation of thy words ; for 't is incerted in our citation of thy own words , relating both to thy Preface , Introduction and Postscript , all alledged for thy present proceeding to Print , and to evince the Righteousness thereof ; And thou knowest in thy own Conscience , that either thy Word [ PRESENT ] must relate to more than thy Postscript , or else thou wast very Impertinent and defective . If when in a Postscript , by additional and supplemental Plea or Reasons to all that precedes in thy Preface , thou art going about to make out the Righteousness ( pretended ) of thy present proceeding to Print and publish Divisions ; we must thereby understand it not to relate to any thing more than thy Postscript . Then we must take thy meaning to be , as if thou must have more plain and convincing Reasons for thy proceeding to Print thy Postscript of but four Sheets , than for all the rest of thy Book of near four score Sheets : And yet the plea in thy Postscript appears to supply what thou hast said in thy Preface , in Vindication of thy publishing in Print thy Historical Relation , or great Book of Divisions . I cannot perceive that thou hast herein writ either Ingeniously , Conscientiously or Consistently . And thou mightest have seen how thou wast aforehand obviated , which might have prevented thy present impertinent Excuses and vain Allegations , if thou hadst but taken serious notice of the following recited passage in our Treatise , viz. And further , If to evade the charge of Fallacy and Injustice , Deceit and False cover laid on W. R. in this matter , he flies to his Grammatical sence of his Words , and pleads his Intention , &c. as thinking himself safe in both . 1 st , We say , His present proceeding to Print cannot in reason be confined to his Postscript , wherein the Words are , nor answer the SOME of the People called Quakers he tells of , that have judged him wicked , as for intending to Print against Friends , Post. p. 25. ( whom he undertakes to answer in that case ) nor vindicate him as to his Historical Relation , ( mentioned in the same page ) which includes his Book , which therefore cannot be confined to , nor included in his Postscript . 2 dly , The Reasons he gives in his Postscript , to prove himself Righteous in his proceeding to Print , cannot relate only to that his Postscript , but to his whole Book , because they are added for a supplement to his Preface to the Reader , and his Introduction to the first and fourth parts of his Treatise ; which Preface and Introduction concern his whole Book or Historical Relation ( as he calls it . ) And which Preface and Introduction he thinks may give sufficient satisfaction to every impartial & unprejudiced Reader : But lest the Ignorance or Blindness of any should be so great , as not from thence to perceive the Righteousness of his present proceeding to Print , &c. he gives his additional Reasons and Instances in his Postscript ; the chief whereof is that relating to the two printed Sheets , which came to his Hands the 8th of November , 1680. as aforesaid , wherein the supplemental Reason given , was more clearly to evince the pretended Justness of his proceeding to Print , than he had done before in his said Preface or Introduction , as that it was even to prevent such great Ignorance and Partiality as would hinder any from perceiving his Righteousness in proceeding to Print . [ which therefore must needs relate to more than his Postscript . ] And William , I find no Contradiction , as thou accusest , between our signifying , That the two Sheets aforesaid was the Principal Instance for thy proceeding to print and publish thy Book , ( that is , to prove thy Righteousness pretended therein , as 't was made appear from thy own Words ) AND signifying that thou declaredst a far higher necessity , i. e. a great concern of Conscience , &c. That the Epistle of two Sheets , aforesaid , was thy principal Instance , Reason or Allegation , to prove the Righteousness ( pretended ) of thy proceeding , is no down-right falshood ( as thou falsly renderest it ) but true ; for 't was CHIEFLY thy concern to give that Instance of the said Epistle after other Instances of less concern , and less to the purpose of Printing , &c. And that thou also placedst a higher necessity on thy proceeding , than the said two Sheets , is also true : The first was produced as a principal instance or cause , to evince the Righteousness of thy proceeding to print an Historical Relation , &c. The second was thy own Assertion for the necessity of thy proceeding , pretending it for the clearing of thy Conscience , &c. Such necessity ( pretended ) of proceeding was higher than thy said Instance or Reason for it , as between an Immediate necessity of doing a thing , and an outward Reason or Instance for doing it . Where 's now the Contradiction ? If there be any , it must be thy own , in placing such occasion on the said two Sheets , as to be so chiefly concern'd at them , and yet a more immediate necessity of Conscience , &c. before that . The Premises of this point considered , in reference to thy being so chiefly concerned , to instance the said Epistle of two Sheets , thy Charge that a down-right Vntruth is the Subject occasioning his Words , p. 49. ( which thou callest Drollery ) falleth to the Ground as a down-right Falshood . That which thou callest Drollery ( in conclusion of that Detection we made of thy unrighteous and fallacious Vindication of thy proceeding to Print , &c. ) I am perswaded it hit thee , and touched thee , as in a way of answering a Fool ( that is , such a one as is highly conceited , and wise in his own Eyes ) according to his Folly. And how natural and suitable that passage ( thou callest Drollery ) is to the subject and occasion given on thy part , unto which it relates , I leave to the impartial and ingenious Reader to consider and judge , upon perusal of the whole matter concerning that point , as 't is handled in our said Treatise , entituled , The Accuser of our Brethren cast down , under the 10 th Disaffection ; from p. 19. to p. 37. Unto all which ( William ) thou hast but given an Impertinent Fling , and the slie GO-BY to the substance , even the most part thereof . § . 3. Whereas upon thy Confusion and Contradiction to many Friends about the Tree of Knowledge , that God forbad Man to eat of : The Question was put concerning thy self , thus , viz. What kind of Preacher would he make , if he should tell People , The Tree of Knowledge is good for Food ; the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food ? This Question thou takest to be grounded on a down-right Falshood ; for sayest thou , I never asserted that the Tree of Knowledge was good for Food , and that it was not good for Food ; neither have I written any thing to shew my own sence either way , p. 50. No! That 's strange ; and a gross and manifest Untruth and Shuffle , I am sure : And I may ask thee , if thou hast not belyed thy own Conscience in these Words ? How darest thou now utter in Print , that thou hast not written any thing to shew thy own sence either way , i. e. Whether the Tree of Knowledge be good for Food , or not good for Food ? Hast thou not ( in the first place ) written to shew thy own sence , That it is good for Food , by thy plainly opposing the contrary Doctrine , as preached by divers among us : ( viz. That the Tree of Knowledge was not good for Food . ) Hast not thou plainly objected against this Doctrine ? Instancing , That a Father may command his Child not to eat an Apple ; his Rebellious eating no Argument to prove the Apple in it self not good for Food : And we know not on what Foot of Truth any one can assert that the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food . And to prove the Tree of Knowledge in it self good for Food , thou also didst cite John 17. This is Life Eternal to know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent . Thence infering , so that Knowledge is the way to Life . But did God forbid the knowledge of himself , and of his Son , to Man in Innocency , when he forbad him to eat of the Tree of Knowledge ? Didst thou not here plainly enough shew thy sence , That the Tree of Knowledge was good for Food ? And doth not this imply that the Serpent was more kind to Man in moving to eat of it , than his Maker was in forbidding him ? There 's no need of thy adding [ as in it self ] for the Tree is it self . With what Conscience then durst thou adventure not only to say , Thou never assertedst that the Tree of Knowledge was good for Food , but also , that thou hast not written any thing , to shew thy own sence either way . Oh , wonderful ! I somewhat admire at such a manifest gross Untruth , that thou shouldst undertake in several Pages , with several Objections , to oppose a Doctrine , as thou didst that of the Tree of Knowledge not being good for Food : And now to flam us off , with telling us , That thou hast not written any thing to shew thy own sence either way ? Hast thou not here play'd Legerdemain , to write so plainly in opposition to another's Position , and yet tell us , Neither hast thou written any thing to shew thy own sence either way ? For shame leave off such Impertinent Scribling , and spend thy time better in the Creation . But yet what reason for the Question , viz. What kind of Preacher wouldst thou make , if thou shouldst tell People , the Tree of Knowledge is good for Food , the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food ? For the first , thou hast shewn thy sence plainly , however thou wouldst now smother it : The latter appears deducible from thy finding out a Salvo , or Plea , for some that may declare , That the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food ; for thou wouldst not be understood to reflect on all that have used that Expression , because thou questionest not but many have so express'd themselves — to shew that if we should feed upon , or admire any excellent Qualification or Endowment , and not have the Eye of our mind Chiefly unto the Giver , we might then come to a loss ; See the Second Part of thy Christian-Quaker , p. 28 , 29. Thus hast thou excused the Doctrine before opposed by thee , viz. That the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food . § . 4. As for G. F's Epistle against the envious Spirits , and Persecutors of those who could not observe their outward Things , Traditions , &c. thou dost much insist on these Words , viz. They that do so , viz. set up outward things , gather People to themselves , not unto God , &c. If these be truly cited , G F. best knows his own Intention , and in point of Justice ought rather to have been enquired of , as to have been his own Interpreter , than to have been brought forth in Print under the disguise of a prejudicial Interpretation and straining his Words , and turning his sence besides whatever was intended in them , or by him . And what hast thou got by the said Citation , thou hast so much insisted on ? If thou strainest the Litteral sense thus , That no outward things are to be set up , nor outward Order practised in the Church of Christ. Thou wilt therein farther interfer with thy self , having already granted outward Form and Order , &c. to be in the Church of Christ , yea , even the case of Marriage ; as what care thou tookest about the marrying thy two Daughters , &c. But G. F's intention and sence in the words of his said Epistle , is by another hand fully spoken to , and therefore I forbear enlarging on them . However thy construction , That out of G. F 's Mouth he and his Brethren may justly be compared to Cain for persecuting their Brethren , for no other cause than for not submitting to outward things , &c. p. 50. This Construction I look upon to be very gross and reproachful , and that it proceeded from a persecuting spirit , that is , a false and unjust Judge . And as false and malicious ( William ) is thy dark smiting , in telling of such sort of Preachers , ( i. e. among the People called Quakers ) whose Pride and Insolency might prompt them at this day to say , — Though you are our Witnesses , that we have often declared that our Commission from God was to turn People from the Power of Satan to God , that so they might all come to be ordered and governed by the appearance of the Power in themselves ; yet we did NOT mean , but that when we had gathered any into the Truth , we should be those who ought to have the RULE over them , and that such should observe our Traditions , or follow us , Without giving a Reason why ; and though they might in Truth be submitting themselves one to another in the Lord ( according to the Apostles Counsel ) yet all of them must submit to us , and reverence , honour and obey us , &c. pag. 50 , 51. Thus far thou ( William . ) But that any Preachers among the said People called Quakers have so said or preached after this exalted , imperious and inconsistent manner , I must take leave to deny , till I have better proof from thee , than thy quoting thy self , or thy saying ( that in the 48 & 49 pages of the 3d part of thy Treatise entituled , The Christian-Quaker ) 'T is so written , which is thy own Book , making thy self thy own Authority proof for thy self ; and then thy saying , 'T is as naturally deduced from R. B 's discourse in his Book of Government ; and then quotest thy self again for Proof , bidding us see pages 41 to 49. in thy said 3 d Part. But still , we deny thy Credit in the case , thou art no sufficient Proof for thy self against us ; 't is a meer begging of the Question . The Pride and Insolency thou wouldst now fix upon R.B. he utterly denyes , as also , That those whom we have gathered to the Truth , should observe our Traditions , Without giving a Reason why . He also denys , that this is either naturally deduced or justly deducible from any discourse of his in his said Book . And I must tell thee ( William ) this looks like one of Tho. Hicks's Abuses and gross Forgeries in his Dialogues ; seeing it has always been our Principle to give convincing Reason , where scruples or doubts are , first to remove them , and clear Peoples understandings ( so far as the Lord enables us ) before they proceed to act in any Religious Performances ; and we being the Servants of our Lord Jesus Christ , we utterly abhor and detest setting up our selves as Lords over God's Heritage ▪ or seeking to have the Rule and Dominion over them or their Faith ; and we may each of us conclude , and say with his Servant Gideon , I will not Rule over you , the Lord shall Rule over you , Judges 8.22 , 23. 'T is not Man , but the Lord we must exalt . § . 5. Thou ( W. R. ) still proceedest falsly and perversly in saying , viz. That Jealousies have entred the breasts of thousands , that though these our travelling Brethren exalted the Spirit of God in man , as the only sufficient Rule for man , and declared , that the Scriptures were not a sufficient Rule to man ; yet instead of leaving us to the Rule which they have declared to be sufficient , they strain that which they have declared not sufficient , to make it ( as much as in them lies ) a Rule for them to rule over their Brethren , p. 51. To all which I say , 1 st , We have no cause to believe thy story , that such Jealousies have entred thousands . 2 dly , All travelling Brethren , approved among us , exalt the Spirit of God in man as much as ever . 3 dly , Such do not make the holy Scriptures ( however truly own'd in their place ) any such Rule as for them to rule over their Brethren , such being called to feed the flock , and not be as Lords over Gods Heritage , nor as seeking Dominion over their Brethrens Faith , but to walk in the Humility of Jesus Christ , as Ensamples to the flock . Thy thoughts therefore to the contrary concerning those who gave forth our Treatise , entituled , The Accuser , &c. are utterly wrong ; and thy quoting thy self in thy said third Part , is as feeble and impertinent as before in thy Forgery against R. B. &c. § . 6. About the Tree of Knowledge again , thou ( W. R. ) again proceedest thus , viz. p. 51. The Pen-man thus saith , By all this opposition to the Doctrine , That the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food , William Rogers seems to account it good for Food . Nothing said by me , or cited as my words by themselves shews either opposition or assent to such Doctrine , p. 51. That 's a manifest untruth again , and before detected : Many of thy own words cited in our said Treatise , do plainly shew thy assent to such Doctrine , and that thou accountedst the Tree of Knowledge good for Food , especially in thy opposing the contrary Doctrine . Review the Passage in thy own Christian-Quaker , part 2. p. 27 , 28 , 29. with our Answer , Accuser , &c. pag. 109 , 110 , 111 , 112 , 113 , 114. and pag. 222 , 223 , 224. If nothing said by thee , or cited as thy words , shew either opposition or assent to the said Doctrine ; and that thou hast not written any thing to shew thy sence either way , as thou hast declared , how hast thou pursued thy charge of Apostacy and Innovation ? Didst thou not bring in that Doctrine ( That the Tree of Knowledge was not good for Food ) among other things to prove thy charge of Apostacy and Innovation against us , and this as to Doctrine opposed by thee ? But now wilt not own either opposition or assent in any thing said or written by thee , to shew thy own sence either way . Oh William ! where 's thy Conscience , in writing not only thus insignificantly , but thus evasively and prevaricatingly ? And how hast thou by such Impertinency distinguished or proved thy self and party The Christian-Quaker , and those against whom thou writest The Apostate and Innovator , either in Doctrine or Practice , when thou hast attempted it in Doctrine ? Thy attempts and opposition signifie nothing ; thou hast not written any thing to shew thy sence either way . Then thou hast produced nothing to prove nothing . To thy saying , viz. If we had learned from the Scriptures , that the Serpent had said , 'T was good for food , yet it would not have shewn me erronious in my Assertion , unless the words [ as in it self ] had been added , which are not , pag. 51. Thy Assertion ! What Assertion hast thou made in the case , when thou hast not written any thing to shew thy sence either way , either of opposition or assent to such Doctrine , if therein we may believe thee ? But how inconsistent with thy self art thou , as between shewing no sence , and thy Assertion in the same case ? And what if the word [ as in it self ] are not added , for the Tree of Knowledge being good for Food , as in it self , as thou hast plainly enough implyed ? What would that have added to the verity of thy Assertion , or to the weight of the Doctrine , whilst the Controversie relates to the Tree of Knowledge , whether or no it be good for food , it relates to it self , and not to another ; for that Tree is it self . However , thou mayst intend , [ as in it self ] to be in its own Nature , without respect to the Command . The matter in Question is not Whether the Tree of Knowledge be good in it self , but whether it be good for such an end and purpose , as for Food , i. e. for the Soul of man , either before the Fall , or in the Restoration ? Both God's Prohibition and Experience teach the contrary , viz. That 't is not good for Food ; though otherwise , Knowledge ( rightly so called ) be good as in its own Nature . But the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a mixt Knowledge , not Food for an innocent Soul ; 't is the pure unmixt Knowledge of the good only which springs from divine Life that is its Food . The words [ Tree of Knowledge ] are an allusion , and is Mysteriously to be understood only in the Light of Christ. To thy saying , 'T is hard to know with what sort of Spirit the Pen-man , most immediately concerned in the Accuser , &c. is at unity with ; For 't is evident he doth not give the Devil his due , neither doth he give God or good Men their due , pag. 52. Is it hard to know ? How camest thou then so severely to censure and judge him and his Spirit , as Impious , Wicked , & c ? But in humility and fear of the Lord , he is at Unity ( and daily converseth ) with the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ , which is a Spirit of true Understanding and Judgment , whereby he clearly discerns , and hath Power to judge thy dark , confused Spirit of Enmity , and its unfruitful Works of Darkness and Division against Christ and his true followers . § . 7. Concerning Tythes , thou pretendest to except against the Payment of them , That they are ( as at this day paid under pretence of being Due , JVRE DIVINO ) — Antichristian , and also against the Humane Institution and constraint to pay them . [ And thus far we do not oppose thee , nor have shewn disaffection . ] But thou hast found out another and more easie way to pay them : Thus , viz. Yet if any Person will FREELY of himself give a Tenth part of his Estate , or of the Increase thereof TO ANY VSE WHATSOEVER ; having no regard to any Humane Institution or Claim by vertue of any pretended Divine Law , it can no more be called Antichristian then , &c. p. 52. No! not as given to any use whatsoever ? That 's large and loose , and as strange ! Suppose some do freely pay Tythes to maintain an Antichristian Ministry , without regard to the plea of Jure Divino , or humane Institution or Constraint , but voluntarily and freely , which needs no constraint nor coertion : Were not this Antichristian ? And did not the Christian-Quaker bear Testimony from the beginning against the Antichristian Ministry and Tythes paid to maintain them , whether by some paid freely or not ; the labour was to bring People from them to Christ , the great Shepherd , and end of the first Priesthood , Tythes and the Law that upheld them . Art not thou now evading and shifting from our first Testimony , that was absolute against the payment of Tythes in these Gospel dayes ? And doth not these thy evasive Apostatizing shifts tend to draw others into Looseness and Apostacy , to decline the Cross , and cast off the Yoke of our Lord Jesus Christ ? Again , thou givest a recital of thy Answer to the Objection or Question of thy own framing , in the case of Tythes ; but now craftily leavest out thy Objection , which concern'd Tythes , as given to the National Ministry , thus , viz. But what if it please the Supream Power to bestow on the National Ministry Tythes ? How prove you from Scripture , that those who freely pay it , do ill ? or that 't is not lawful for them , to receive it from such ? These are thy own Words , ( William ) to which thou madest the following Answer , mentioned in our 40 th Disaffection , and recited in these words , viz. We are so far from condemning those who freely pay them , ( i. e. Tythes ) and not as by Constraint , that we look upon it to be the Duty of all , professing Christianity , to contribute towards the outward Maintenance of such whom they usually hear , and account to be the true Ministers of Christ , though not obliged thereto by Law , in case they have need , p. 52. We remain still Disaffected with thy Doctrine it this point , ( William ) so far as it relates to the paying of Tythes : Thy granting an uncondemned Liberty therein , for them who can freely pay them to those they account the true Ministers of Christ ( though they be the National Ministry ) I am sure is contrary to the antient Testimony of the true Christian-Quaker , and all faithful travelling Brethren in the Gospel and Work of Christ , To contribute towards the outward Maintenance , &c. is not the matter under debate . But the Question immediately relating to the Payment of Tythes , as 't is included in thy own Objection in the case , which thou hast craftily forborn to recite , and only recitest the Words of thy Answer ; both being compared together , do more clearly evince thy Unchristian Liberty and Apostacy , in justifying Mens freely paying Tythes to those they count Ministers of Christ , &c. yea , though it be to the National Ministry , by thy Objection and Answer before . Thy varying the Terms from [ FREELY PAYING them ] i. e. Tythes , TO a CONTRIBVTING towards their outward Maintenance , appears but a Prevaricating shift , and evading the terms of thy own Objection and Question : Review the Point in thy own 2d Part , Christian-Quaker , in granting a Liberty of freely paying Tythes to the National Ministry , without condemnation ( as before . ) Thou hast contradicted J. W. and J. Story 's Testimony , viz. As to Tythes , we can in truth say , 't was never so much as in our Hearts to strengthen any in the Payment thereof , nor yet to weaken the Faith of any , having a Testimony in our Hearts that Tythes , as at this day paid , are Antichristian . Mark , [ as at this day paid ] is to the National Ministry ; by some freely , and by others by constraint . As also thou shewest thy fallacious Insinuation and Prevarication , from the terms under debate , in concluding , That the Pen-man would exclude such sort of Charity to any ministring Professor of Christianity , besides such as he may account of his own Brotherhood , whereby their outward Man might receive Sustenance ; else if they accounted it not Christian-like , to give on a Charitable score , TYTHES , without Compulsion ; yet he might have shewn his assent that their Conscientious Hearers might ( without Condemnation ) have administred in another Method , p. 53. How falsly hast thou insinuated against the Pen-man , and daubed with the Professors , as if now thou wouldst ingratiate thy self , to come into favour with the Professors , who are against the Quakers , and as if thou wouldst please them , by telling of giving on a Charitable score , Tythes . But William , I am sorry thou shouldst thus wrong thy own Conscience , ( by such false Insinuations ) for therein thou knowest the matter in question ; and our Observation was not about ( nor for ) excluding such sort of Charity , as that of freely relieving or contributing towards the Sustenance of the outward Man of any of them , in case of need ; for that Humanity allows , much more Christianity : But the matter in question , was singly about the freely paying of Tythes , and that to the National Ministry , ( as thy Words were ) against which our 40 th Disaffection was directed . And thy insinuating expressions about giving on a Charitable score Tythes , will not excuse thee , nor clear thee in this matter ; as also on this occasion thou fallaciously insinuatest in thy Prayer , viz. The Lord preserve me and all true Christians from that Censorious Spirit , as may conclude , that there are no other Sheep than of the Pen-man's Fold , p. 53. Whom dost thou herein accuse ? We deny any such Censorious Spirit , with thy terms [ Pen-man's Fold ] for 't is Christ's Fold we own . Thou art an uncharitable censorious Spirit . We know there are other Sheep , as Christ declared , which he will fetch home into his Fold : But thou appearest none of Christ's Sheep , either in his Fold , or out of his Fold , whilst in such an Envious , Wolfish and Scornful Spirit . § . 8. Whereas to our 44 th Disaffection , about Circumcision being a Christian-Liberty , according to thy own Words ; thou sayest , viz. Suppose I had in any part of my Writings laid down , that the practice of Circumcision , by one that was a Jew , and a believer in Christ , was in that day a Christian-Liberty : I only Query , ( not intending to quarrel with my Adversary about a Mode of Speech , when our Meanings are the same ) How can this be termed an Erronious manner of expression ? — Why might not the Practice of such a Christian , be without offence termed Christian-Liberty ? p. 54. I Answer ; Because Circumcision in the Flesh , was not only a Type under the Law , but by Christians counted a Yoke of Bondage , not to be born by the Disciples under the Gospel , being also among other Types abolisht by Christ in his Sufferings and Death : Though some weak Believers , as those of the Jews did for a time practise it ; yet they did it in obedience to the Law of Moses , and the Old Covenant ; and not in obedience to Christ and his Apostles in the New Covenant : And there was a Christian-forbearance and patience towards them , in suffering Circumcision for a time to those of the Jews , when the Vail was not wholly done away , nor they come clearly to see to the end of those things that were abolished by Christ. ( and yet no liberty nor way was given for them to draw others into it . ) Whence it follows , not that Circumcision it self was Christian-Liberty , or practised in a Christian-Liberty in that day , but with respect to Moses's Law ; but the forbearance towards them was Christian and tender . I am not willing to make much ado about this thy Mode of Speech ; though I look on 't to be an unsound and unscriptural Mode . To thy saying , Thou dost not say , that Circumcision practised as aforesaid , is a Christian-Liberty ; 't is the Pen-man's consequence , &c. What hast thou said less ? Thou hast told us of these Differing Exercises IN A CHRISTIAN-LIBERTY ; When speaking of practising Circumcision , keeping a day , abstaining from eating Flesh amongst the Primitive Believers ; That Christian-Liberty , &c. See thy own Recitation , p. 53. 7 th Part. Circumcision then was one of those differing Exercises , which thou placest in a Christian Liberty , and which in thy next page thou termest Christian-Liberty , as before : And thou sayest , If the mode of Speech be not pertinent to express the matter in hand — 'T is our own approved Language . I think thou mistakest here , ( William ) and the passage thou citest out of R. B's Book of Government , p. 63 , 64. proves it not from these Words cited , viz. There is a certain Liberty and Forbearance also , &c. whereof we have the Example of the Primitive Church — viz. In suffering Circumcision to the Jews . [ Did he here term Circumcision Christian-Liberty ? No sure , 't was only permitted or suffered to them , as was the Observation of certain Dayes , and abstaining from Meats , which were not holden universally ; but when laid upon others , then preacht down and reproved by the Apostle , Gal. 5. Is there not a plain difference between a certain Liberty in suffering Circumcision to the Jews , and terming it Christian-Liberty ? Is this the very same Language approved by the Second day's Meeting ( as thou sayest ? ) p. 55. Sure thou art much out here , ( William ) to our saying , That this man , who is thus discomposed in his Work , should not have medled so much with Points of Divinity , which he appears so little skilful in : He dreams so much of Liberty that he is greatly bewildred in the management of it . Thou answerest , 'T is Language more like the proudest of Prelates , adorned with a pair of Lawn Sleeves , than an humble Quaker , p. 53. To this adding also in p. 55. Will not the impartial Reader hence be apt to suppose , that the Pen-man's design is to ingross discourses of Divinity to himself and his Brethren , that so the Laity may believe nothing but what proceeds from their Mouthes and Pens : If they shall complain , that this renders them guilty of gross Popery ; my counsel is , Let them for the future cease giving occasion , p. 55. This Question contains both scorn and falshood , suggested against us , to render us guilty of Popery , as before is discovered : We have no such design of engrosement , nor Popish distinction among us , as between Clergy and Laity ; the Spirit of Christ , and true knowledge of Divinity , are not limitted nor engrossed in the will of man , to Persons ; neither doth our reprehending a discomposed Person for medling in things beyond his skill , prove us Guilty in these cases . Again , William , thou proceedest abusively and falsly in these Words , viz. For 't is well known , that G. Fox his party have been so Contentious , as that nothing would content them but the introducing new Practices , under the Notion of Gospel-Discipline , in a Spirit of Strife and Contention , concluding all to be dark that saw not with their Eyes , p. 55. I shall say little to these Reproachful Censures . But the Lord rebuke this false , malicious , censorious , judging , exalted , conceited Spirit : And he will manifestly rebuke it , I doubt not . CHAP. VI. § . 1. Of our Catalogue of some of W. R's manifest Falshoods , notorious Slanders , scandalous Abuses , &c. ( which are numerous ) to clear himself , and prove the Pen-man to have play'd the Forger : He gives only three Instances , whereby W. R. cannot clear himself . § . 2. W. R. again opposing the Credit of the Pen-man's method about proving Negatives : The supposed Absurdity and Immorality removed . § . 3. Concerning his Contradictions : His attempts only to reconcile the first Instance , proved invalid , as between his placing the Disunion in Principles , Doctrine and Life of Christianity , and placing it not in Principles of Truth , nor in Christ's Doctrine , but in Ceremonies , the Shell , &c. § . 4. His own Affirmation to clear himself of Contradiction , no valid Plea or Argument . His own dishonesty and injustice in accusing the Pen-man , for not informing the Reader what is right and what is wrong in the matter of Contradiction . His notorious Falshood and Contradictions farther pursued ( in judgment against himself , on his own Censure ) about the Apostacy entring the generality . Christ's words , Mat. 18.15 , 16 , 17. Circumcision : The Tree of Knowledge : Freely paying Tythes , &c. § . 5. W. R's Postscript a slight and scornful Put-off to our Friends of Bristol , their Book entituled , An Exalted Diotrephes Reprehended ; his miserable Evasion , manifest Fallacy , Falshood , Abuse and Scorn against them , detected . § . 6. Of his Proposition to our Meeting in London . His Insincerity , unrighteous Judgment and Conclusion against our Meeting . § . 1. BUt let 's see how thou ( W. R. ) proceedest to prove the Pen-man to have play'd the Forger in giving a Catalogue ( term'd ) of some of W. R. his manifest Falshoods , notorious Slanders , scandalous Abuses , Perversions , Rayling , Scoffing , Flattering and Reviling , in the 4 th and 5 th Parts of his Book against G. F. and others , in his own words and terms ; which may be seen at large in our said Treatise , Accuser , &c. from page 230 , to pag. 255 , &c. how not only some of his manifest Falshoods , Slanders , scandalous Abuses , &c. are collected and stated in his own words and terms , but even all of them there collected , are so far from varying his own sence , that his words or terms are scarce varyed in two of them . I find not his sence or meaning in them varied or altered at all , so far as I can understand or gather . Now ( W. R. ) in pursuance of thy charge before , thou engagest in these words , viz. I shall now proceed to cite only three Instances in one Leaf of their Catalogue , next to the Title , viz. One of their Forgery , another of their cript Citations , and a third of their cript and non-sensical Representations of my sound words , &c. p. 56. Observe by the way , That seeing the Instances are so few , as only Three ( and though he calls them only a taste , &c. p. 58 ) the Reader may presuppose them to be ( in his thoughts ) knocking ones , or the most likely for his purpose , and the most advantagious for his turn that he could find or pick out , and such palpable Forgery , &c. as nothing to be said for it . But see if it prove so ; see if he knocks us in the Head or down with it : Now observe his great and chief Instance , viz. They thus represent me to say in the Christian-Quaker , Part 4. pag. 4. That they are persecuting Opposers who oppose John Wilkinson and John Story : My own words are , Vnless the Lord shall be pleased to change the hearts of the persecuting Opposers of John Wilkinson and John Story . This Forgery — to me appears to render me a Persecutor ; for , saith he , would William Rogers be counted a Persecutor for his opposing others more vehemently ? I abhor Persecution , and in this Controversie do act the part of a Defendant against ( and in discovery of ) a Company of PERSECVTORS , p. 56. Now let the Ingenious Reader observe , what great difference is there in thus representing him ? what variation of his sence ? as between his saying , The persecuting Opposers of J. S. and J. W. and saying , That they are persecuting Opposers who oppose them ? I must confess , I am not so critical as to understand a variation of his sence , or much of his words , in this small Transposition , though he now makes his exception , That there may be Opposition to each other , from difference in Religion , yet not attended with Persecution . He should have told us , that exception was included in his discourse before in this point , viz. That only some of the Opposers of J. W. and J. S. were persecuting Opposers , but not all of them : Some of their Opposers are not Persecutors : But we must commonly be troubled with his colateral Meanings to supply his precedent Defects . But then , what Company of Persecutors are those he now tells of , against whom he acts the part of a Defendant ? Are they not all he has written against in this Controversie , both named and unnamed ? And are not these the Opposers of J. W. and J. S ? Are they not those whom he calls G. F. and his Party , G. F. and his Brethren ? And has he not counted them Persecutors , yea , a Company of Persecutors ? Who then are opposers of J. W. and J. S. that are not of party with G. F. ( in W. R's account ) and consequently no Persecutors ? For W. R. saith , G. F. and his Brethren ( out of G. F 's mouth ) may be justy compared to Cain for persecuting their Brethren , p. 50. And as plainly W. R. shews his meaning , and the intent of his words ( before cited ) where in page 22. in his comparison between the Paper signed by Charles Marshall , &c. and Pope Leo the tenth his Bull against Martin Luther ( Anno 1520. ) W. R. saith , But in the aforesaid Paper there is no mention of any particular Doctrine or Viciousness of Life , for which they ( i. e. J.S. and J.W. ) are persecuted by their Brethren . Now wherein ( I pray ) is his meaning or sence of his words ( about persecuting Opposers ) altered , or the intent of his Mind clouded , ( as he complains ) in what we have represented ? W. R ▪ represents himself in this Controversie as one acting the part of a Defendant , only against a Company of Persecutors . But I am sure he greatly acts the part of an Offendor and bitter Persecutor , with his bitter words of hatred , to scandalize many innocent Friends , approved Servants and Ministers of Christ among the People called Quakers with Popery , tending greatly to render that People obnoxious . Whilst he is complaining of Persecution , he 's acting the part of a most bitter Persecuting Informer and Incendiary . Apostate Judas's are the worst of Informers . As for his Complaint of cript Citation and nonsensical Representation of words ; I must say , and that according to my understanding , his words are so largely cited , as that the drift and scope of his Intention and Sence may be understood , though some of his long Parenthesis and super-abundant Expressions are left out . I would not desire to be more largely cited by himself , or any Adversary whatsoever , than he is in his words . And for my own part , I sometime think that I am apt to cite my Adversary's words too largely , but it is , that both his sence may the more plainly appear , and what occasion he gives , either for a judgment or inference naturally to be deduced . And I find not the Passage non-sensically represented , which he recites , pag. 57. But in that he calls the cript Citation ( in the 6th line of the same page , I find his recital wrong , viz. words for fruits ) But how can it be cript , when the page is quoted , where 't is to be found at large ? Upon the serious perusal of our Adversary's reiterated black Charges of Palpable Forgery and Prevarications , pag. 57 , 58. together with his attempts to prove them . I do solemnly profess in the sight of God , I do not find my self conscious , nor justly chargeable therein ; for I really am for giving the Devil his due , and not to overcharge nor mischarge him in any case ( how bad soever he be in himself ) much less to overcharge my fellow-Creatures , how much prejudiced soever any of them be against me . Yet though I know my own Innocence , both as to Intention and Principle , I impose not my bare sence and credit upon the Readers judgment , but leave him therein free , to the light of Truth in himself , to take impartial and just measures in what he reads in this Controversie , relating either to Persons or Principles ; and let the Light of Truth in all judge , for to that I appeal . § . 2. To what W. R. saith of the Pen-man's Method , If it should become of Credit , 't were then easie to undertake a Proof of any sort of Negative , &c. pag. 58. 'T is a Mistake ; for when I see a Person fearing God abused , scandalized , defamed and mis-represented , contrary to his known Principle and Practice ( as I am really sensible and satisfied in my judgment , thou W. R. hast frequently dealt by G. F. and others ) I may give my positive Testimony and Judgment against such abusive and malicious Treatment , and yet not undertake a Proof of any sort of Negative ; and then it concerns thee W. R. to make Proof of thy Charges and Accusations , when they are either denyed , or a negative Testimony given against them ; otherwise not to think thy self secure by quarrelling with Negative Testimonies , which in many cases are lawful and of credit , and not Unchristian , nor Immoral , as thou seemest to render them . Neither needed the Pen-man therein to believe G. F. to be God or Christ that never erred , as thou falsly ( by way of supposition ) arguest , pag. 59. to render us odious . For if the Pen-man did but believe ( as he doth ) G. F. to be a Servant of Christ , or a real Christian , or a man fearing God , he might reasonably shew an utter dislike of thy scornful Abuses , Reproaches and Scandals cast upon him , to render him as odious and obnoxious as thou canst readily do in thy Books . § . 3. Then as concerning the Contradictions , collected in our Treatise aforesaid , from pag. 204 , to p. 227. thou citest only the first Instance , and givest us thy bare Affirmation , That the rest are as groundless , pag. 59. The first Instance mentioned by thee is , BETWEEN thy telling of so great a concern of Conscience on many to encourage the Publication of thy Book , lest it should be reputed , That the Doctrine and Life of Christianity were wholly extinct among the aforesaid People . AND John Wilkinson's writing , That of late dayes the Concord we once had seems much to be broken , &c. And the cause God hath manifested to me , That it is NOT IN PRINCIPLES OF TRUTH , NOR IN CHRIST's DOCTRINE , nor in any Practice which Truth , in the Members of the heavenly Body leadeth into ; but about Prescriptions — through the blind zeal of the weak , &c. Observe ; Hath not the one plainly here placed the Apostacy ( charged ) to be from the Doctrine and Life of Christianity ; And the other not in Principles of Truth , nor in Christ's Doctrine ? W. R. as the great Asserter thereof , on behalf of himself and his party , and those whom he writes against to be Apostates and Innovators ; and not only so , but hath he not ( in divers things ) contradicted them both in matter of Doctrine and Practice in his Books ? Hath not the other ( i. e. J. W. ) placed the cause of the breach of the Concord , and of the Jarr , as not being in Principles of Truth , nor in Christ's Doctrine , nor in any Practice which Truth leads into ? What 's more plain than Affirmative in the one , and Negative in the other , on the same subject ? Is not here a manifest contradiction between presupposing such occasion of repute , as if the Doctrine and Life of Christianity were wholly extinct ; And , The breach NOT in Principles of Truth , nor in Christ's Doctrine , &c. The second contradiction does also make it more plain , BETWEEN W. R. his placing the dis-union in Principles , Doctrines and Practices , and his placing it in Ceremonies , the Shell , not in Principles of Truth , nor in Christ's Doctrine ; See Accuser , p. 206 , 207. As also Between the words [ wholly extinct among the AFORESAID PEOPLE ] and [ Through the blind Zeal of THE WEAK ; ] for the weak among them , includes not the said People . But W. R. to save himself from a contradiction to J. W. in this case , pleads the different dates of their Words , viz. that J. W's were written in the Year 1676. and W. R's in the Year 1680. — and that when Differences in the Church begin , they usually ascend higher and higher , and fresh and new occasions , are often administred , p. 60. Here he seems hard put to it , yet this will not save him , nor excuse him ; for he knows that the same Practices and Doctrines , for which he has rendred many of the said People Apostate , were in being among them before the Year 1676. as with respect to Womens Meetings , Marriages , Tythes , Tree of Knowledge , &c. As for Priest and Professor reputing or supposing the Doctrine and Life of Christianity extinct or suffering Shipwrack among the said People , p. 60. W. R's rendring many , or the greatest part of them Apostate , was not the way to prevent such Thoughts or Supposition in them , who were of the same mind against the Quakers , long before he writ , as being no Christians , according as he has rendred many of them : Nor will the rudeness of some in the publick Meeting at Bristol ( whether of his own party , or any others ) prove a just occasion of such Repute against the said People called Quakers , as his words suppose , without exception . § . 4. Of the Catalogue of his Contradictions , W. R. again gives us his own Affirmation , That not one Instance mentioned therein , as contradiction , will bear that term ; and then cryes out of fallacious Prevaricating Insinuations , &c. p. 61. But would not W. R. have exclaim'd against this method of Writing in another ( if against himself ) as Imposition , begging the Question , undertaking to prove any sort of Negatives , and not to be credited ? And now William , as for any of us challenging a Meeting with thee , and thy proffering it in the City of Bristol ; and thy instance of an incitement to a Friendly discourse , p 61. Thy Friendship being turn'd into Enmity , and thy Love into apparent Hatred against us ( thy antient Friends ) we have no ground to expect any Friendly discourse from thee ; thou hast been sufficiently tryed in that way : And 't is not thy endeavouring to flourish , vaunt and boast it off that will either regain thy Repute among God's People , or restore that Friendship thou hast extinguisht on thy part , by thy ungodly hard Speeches and Writings , words of Hatred , Scorn and Pride , which thou appearest puft up withal . One passage I may not omit , touching W. R's contradictions , p. 62. in these Words , viz. 'T is well worthy the Readers observation , that though the Pen-man adds in the Title these Words , viz. [ with Questions , Notes and Remarks thereon ] yet none of the Notes or Remarks do inform the Reader what is right or what is wrong , in the pretended matter of contradiction ( more than in pag. 228. in these words , A plain Concession to Truth . Now he speaks like some Ambassadour of Christ ) For the aforesaid omission I do not commend either the Honesty or Justice of the Pen-man to me , or his care over the Flock . To all which I Answer ; 1 st , This charge contains a notorious falshood : 2 dly , A self-contradiction and judgment against himself . For First , our sence of what is right and what is wrong in his Contradictions , were not only declared in our Treatise in many things , before the Contradictions were ranked together , but also the Questions , Notes and Remarks upon them , do inform the Reader what is right , and what is most agreeing to our sence as right , and what not . What we oppose , commonly is first set down in the first Column , and the better part in the second , for confutation of himself , as the nature of the Questions , &c. do evince plain enough to the Intelligent : As for instance , where W. R. is set against W. R. in his Contradictions ; as BETWEEN his saying , This Doctrine frequently publisht among us [ That the Apostacy shall never enter the generality more ] doth give us just occasion to be Jealous , &c. Part 1. p. 14. AND , his saying , I would NOT be understood to say , That the Apostacy shall never enter the generality again , Part 3. p. 74. Our Question on this contradiction is , Q. Then why does he so often quarrel with the Doctrine frequently published , as he saith , viz. That the Apostacy shall never enter the generality more ? Which plainly shews , we own his assent to this Doctrine to be right , and not his Jealous opposition to it . Again , to his Contradiction , in saying , WE REASONABLY conclude , that the Words of Christ and the Apostle ( in Mat. 18.15 , 16 , 17. and 1 Cor. 6.1 , 2 , 4. ) ONLY hinted at Personal Offences or Differences , touching worldly matters , Part 1. p. 47. And confessing ( on Mat. 18.15 , 16 , 17. ) that EVERY CASE , wherein one Brother may trespass against another , may in RIGHT REASON be comprehended in it , Part 3. p. 36. Our Question on this contradiction is , Q. Whether EVERY CASE be to be limited only to WORLDLY MATTERS , and not extend to any Cases of a Spiritual nature ? Which implyeth our accepting his assent to the latter , viz. Every such case , &c. and not his limiting it only to worldly Matters . Again , his placing CIRCVMCISION as exercised in a CHRISTIAN-LIBERTY ; ( and calling it that Christian-Liberty ) saying , This did not at that time condemn that Christian Liberty , in such as made Conscience of Circumcision , ( which were some believing Jews ) Part 3. p. 82. and Part 5. p. 74 , 75. AND his contrary confession , That the Labour of the Apostles of Christ in the Primitive dayes , was to DRAW the outward Jew FROM OFF the observation of these Ordinances , which were really establisht by the appointment of God himself , Part 1 ▪ p. 73. Our Question on this Contradiction , is , Q. How can it be good Doctrine to account Circumcision a CHRISTIAN-LIBERTY , and an Exercise not condemnable in Believers , when the labour of the Apostles were to draw the outward Jew from off the observation of these Ordinances ? This plainly evinceth , that we do not own his Doctrine to be right , that Circumcision was a Christian-Liberty ; though there was for some time a Christian-forbearance towards them that observ'd it , in obedience to Moses's Law in the Old Covenant . Again , BETWEEN W. R's opposing that Doctrine , That the Tree of Knowledge was not good for Food , as not knowing on what Foot of Truth any one can SO assert . And his saying , I would not be under●●ood to reflect on ALL , that have used that Expression , viz. The Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food , Part 2. p. 27 , 29. Our Question on this contradiction , is , Q. 1. If he counts the Doctrine erronious , or not of the Truth , to say , that the Tree of Knowledge is not good for Food ; does not this reflect on all that have used that Expression ? And 2 dly , In commendation of the Tree of Knowledge as good for Food , as in it self , he instanced John 17.3 . This is Life eternal , that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent ; adding that 'T is evident that Knowledge is the Way to Life , Part 2. p. 28. Hereupon we put the Question ; Q. 3. Did God forbid the Knowledge of himself ? the Knowledge which is Life eternal ? that Knowledge which is the Way to Life , to man in the state of Innocency in the beginning ? Let this be considered . And , Q 4. Can it be good Doctrine to say , That the Serpent perswaded Eve to that Knowledge which is the way to Life , or to the Knowledge of the true God and Jesus Christ , which is Life eternal ? Could THAT be the Knowledge that God forbad Man eat of ? Were not this very absurd , to render the Serpent more kind to Man than his Maker was ? Is it not here apparent , that we have informed the Reader , that 't is not right to esteem the Tree of Knowledge good for Food ? As also on his contradiction in pleading one while For them who Freely pay Tythes without constraint ( i. e. to the National Ministry . ) Another while for J. W. and J. S. Their Testimony against Tythes , as being ( as at this day paid ) Antichristian , Part 2. p. 43. and Part 4. p. 39. On which we observe and question , Whether the Liberty W. R. has here granted for the free payment of Tythes , be not an Innovation , tending to beget into a Looseness and Apostacy from our antient Christian Testimony against Tythes ? And whether it be not contradictory to J. W. and J. S. their Testimony cited by himself ? Accuser , &c. p. 224 , 225. What 's more plain , than that his Liberty or Freedom granted for the payment of Tythes , is wrong and inconsistent with our antient Christian Testimony ? 2 dly , That W. R's Charge before recited , contains Self-contradiction and Judgment against himself ( though in it self untrue against the Pen-man ) is evident in his judging , that his Notes and Remarks do not inform the Reader what is right , or what is wrong , in the matter of Contradiction charg'd against him ; and for which Omission he does not commend either the Honesty or Justice of the Pen-man , &c. or his care over the Flock . Now though the Injustice and Falshood of this Charge is already fully detected , observe how obviously W. R. hath hereby brought Judgment upon himself , concerning the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil , to his being told , That he seems to account it good for Food . To this he answers , viz. Nothing said by me , or cited as my Words by themselves , shews either opposition or assent to such Doctrine , p. 51. Neither have I written any thing to shew my own sence either way ( viz. whether the Tree of Knowledge was or was not good for Food . ) p. 50. This is all one , as for W. R. to tell us , That he doth not inform the Reader what is Right or what is Wrong , in this matter of Controversie ; that is , Whether it be Right or Wrong to say , the Tree of Knowledge is good for Food ? If nothing writ or said by him , doth shew his own sence either way , he would be angry if I should make a Similitude Between him and the Jesuits , in his reserve in this point ; When they contend against the Opinions of others , but reserve and hide their own : And if then it be both Dishonesty and Injustice , not to inform the Reader what 's right , or what 's wrong , in things contrary as before intimated ) then where's W. R's Honesty or Justice in this matter ? How evidently is he here self-condemned and judged ? How manifold and numerous are his Contradictions ! Now , William , consider what Labyrinths of Confusion thou runnest into . § . 5. And William , I cannot well but take notice of thy Postscript , of somewhat above a Page , what a slighty Answer and scornful PUT-OFF it is . To the Book given forth by four of our Friends of the City of Bristol , entituled , An Exalted Diotrephes Reprehended , against thy Christian-Quaker , &c. in five parts . Instead of a solid Answer , or sober Vindication of thy self , from their Charge against thee , as being of an abusive lavish Tongue , of a rude , insolent and imperious Behaviour in Men's Meetings , and speaking prophanely of the Power of God : To these things thou sayst , viz. All which I return as Dirt , unworthily cast on me — Such their Calumniations are meerly because of my zealous opposing them and others , &c. And then further sayest , There are few men so weak as ( on serious consideration ) to believe GENERAL CALVMNIATIONS against a man once well esteemed by the Calumniators : Let this be minded , and their Answer duely weighed , and then 't will appear that nothing of weight in the said Book is written against me , p. 79. [ Thus far thou . ] Oh miserable Evasion , Fallacy and Falshood ! with what Conscience couldst thou thus write , ( William ) as if their said Book and Answer consisted but of General Calumniations against thee , ( What reason is there to credit thy general denyal ? ) which I am sure is a shameful and notorious Untruth . Take one instance out of many more , wherein they charge thee with particular matter of Fact , and that is about the Paper of Condemnation , or Submission , which was exhibited and owned by J.S. and J. W. at the Meeting at Drawell in Yorkshire , Anno 1676. when afterward they were minded to extenuate ( or take off ) the weight of it , not owning it according to the common acceptation of A Condemnation , &c. as the said Friends of Bristol relate : Hereupon they do particularly charge thee ( William ) about the same Paper , in these Words , viz. And William Rogers , ( who confessed he drew it for J. S. and J. W. ) reported , There was nothing in it , and that the most Innocent man amongst us might own it , and never hurt himself , and that it was not better than a RATTLE to please Children ; See their said Book , entituled , An Exalted Diotrephes Repre . p. 13. And not only in this , but in divers other particular matters they also charge thee home in their Book ; and also signifie , that they do not think it necessary at present , to particularize thy prophane speaking concerning the Power of God , no more than they have already done concerning thy horrible unsincere dealing with the Brethren at Drawell , &c. Exalt . Diotreph . p. 17. Now ( William ) didst not thou render thy self horribly unsincere , in declaring the said Paper , ( which thy self drew up ) no better than a Rattle to please Children ? after thou knewst that J. S. & J. W. had tendered it as satisfaction to their Brethren , and the Church of God in general ( as their own and thy Words are in it . ) Didst thou think to please those Brethren , and the Church of God in general , with a Rattle for Children ? Oh , William ! was not this particular matter of Fact , and that very gross and absurd ? How didst thou resemble the Ranters therein , and bewray great and horrid Deceit to have entred thee ? I cannot in Charity think that the Devil had got so much hold of thee at that instant , when thou drewst up that said Paper at Drawell , as to intend it only as a Rattle to please Children ; for thy own Narrative bespeaks better , and more serious things of Friends and Brethren , in their proceedings there towards J. S. and J. W. Surely then thou wast in a better and more serious and sincere mind at that time : But I rather think the Devil prevailed with thee afterward , after thou hadst eaten the Sop among the Disciples , and in the time of thy ( and parties ) discontented and murmuring Consultations , Satan entred thee , to devise that deceitful and Ranter-like cover and evasion of the said Paper , being but As a Rattle to please Children ; Though at first tendred as Satisfaction to the Church of God in general . Thus thy Fallacy , ( in particular matter of fact ) is detected , also in slighting and huffing off the said Friends Book , but as General Calumniations , and therefore nothing of weight in it ; when there 's such particular matter of notorious Fact charg'd upon thee in it , as thou canst not get over , nor acquit thy self of . And what men are so weak ( on serious consideration ) as to believe thy general Calumniations against either Persons , People or Society , once well esteemed , by thee a Calumniator ? Or to esteem thee and thy Abettors The Christian-Quaker , and all whom thou calumniatest to be Apostates and Innovators , according to thy Judgment ? How wilt thou clear thy self from a meer begging the Question in both ? which is never likely to be granted to thee as the case stands , according to thy own terms , and supposition cast upon us for our owning our selves to be the Church of Christ , p. 45 , 61. thou having been once in society with us , and didst well esteem of us , but now not only gone out from us , but turn'd bitter Enemy against us , whilst no probation made on thy part , either of our violating or disserting our first Principles of our Christian Union and Society , which thy Brother F. Bugg hath most sillily , yet maliciously attempted to prove against William Penn , Stephen Crisp , John Burnyeat , Alexander Parker , Thomas Salthouse and My Self , from a Paper signed by us from a yearly Meeting , Anno 1675. wherein the sence and tender advice of the said Meeting is propounded in several matters of moment , all which , ( in conclusion ) are recommended to the Evidence of Gods holy Witness in the Hearts of his People . Where 's now the Imposition , Antichristian Apostacy or Violence done to our first Principles of Union , charged on us by Francis Bugg , from this very Paper aforesaid , in his Book , De Christiana Libertate ? W. R. dost thou allow of the said Paper thus recommended as a sufficient proof of the Subscribers Apostacy and Imposition ? I am sure thou hast exprest the contrary . Now W. R. and F. B. clear your selves from begging the Question , if you can , by plain Evidence of your own Christianity and our Apostacy . William , thou farther calumniatest and abusest our said Bristol Friends in thy Postscript , saying , R. V. is known to be as busie to go in the Second day's Meetings Errands , as an hired Apparitour is to go in the Errands of a Bishops Court. And that R. S. and C. H. thou takest to be fitly qualified , to say ANY THING , right or wrong to defame thee ; accusing one of them with a Lying Spirit entred him , p. 79 , 80 These Persons of Bristol , whom thou calumniatest are well known , both to their Neighbours and others , who I am perswaded will not give credit to thee therein ▪ Thy scornful Invectives against them will go but a little way with those who know the honesty and good Repute of the Persons whom thou here writest against , and their deep suffering , with many more for Conscience towards God , which it appears thou hast little regard to , or sence of , who whilst they are suffering under strait Confinement and Duress in a Nacious Goal in the City of Bristol , for their tender Consciences ( as they were when this thy Book ( 7 th part ) came forth , and as many yet are ) thou art secure in a Corner , studdying and scribling against them , to calumniate and defame them in Print , as men of no Conscience towards God , fitly qualified to say any thing , right or wrong , a Lying Spirit entred , &c. Such is thy Treatment to the Prisoners of Jesus Christ , to add Affliction to their Bonds , and to make void their Testimony and Suffering for his Names sake . And not only thus , but thou art cruelly mocking , flouting and deriding at them , telling a story against one of these suffering Friends of Bristol , which thou sayst , occasioned Derision and Laughter ; and that by a Lying Spirit entred them ( thou sayst ) they may become a derision , both to Professor and Prophane , and a scorn to Fools themselves , p. 80. No doubt thy scornful and malicious Work against them ( though otherwise under Persecution and Suffering ) and against many others fearing God , is to make them as ridiculous , and as much the Subjects of scorn and derision as thou canst ; but 't will all return upon thy own head , thou wilt reap the fruit of thy own doings . Thy pretended Love , Christian Charity , Lamentation for thy Brethren , &c. ( in thy hypocritical Epistle directed to the flock of God ) go but a little way it seems ; but that and other Instances of thy Insincerity and Dissimulations are numerous . § . 6. And with what Sincerity or Conscience , couldst thou not only pretend an inclination toward an accommodation of the Controversie , but also propose to our second day's Meeting for thee To read thy Answer , ( viz. thy 7th part , when in Print ) amongst us , and after so done to leave it with us , and to pretend , thy end was , that if the Meeting should that day propose any expedient , answering the Witness of God in thy Conscience , to stop the Publication thereof , thou shouldst then answer the same by forbearing a further Publication thereof , as in thy Letter , dated , London , the 17 th of the 2 d Moneth , 1682 ? pag. 80. I do still question , with what sincerity or conscience thou couldst make such Proposition , and pretend such an end in it to that our Meeting , when thou hadst already prejudged the same Meeting in Print , as being Apostate Innovators , & c ? What capacity could such be in to answer the Witness of God in thy Conscience , if apostatiz'd from it in themselves ? And what ground couldst thou have to expect such a change in them from Apostacy , as that Now ( when thou proposedst the reading thy Book ) they might be in a capacity to reach thy Conscience , as thou sayst ? p. 82. Besides , can any in reason suppose thee real or sincere in thy Proposition for an expedient to stop the Publication of thy Book of about twelve Sheets , when already Printed ? Was not the design of thy Proposition rather for a pretence to excuse thy self , and for a flourish over us , as thou hast made an empty one , and what hast thou got by it ? And was it not manifest , that thou wast still at least jealous of our said Meeting , as being Apostate , in thy not being free then to answer our three Questions , which were very proper , to try the reality of thy own Proposition , and thy end pretended thereof , in order to our hearing thy said Book read . The Questions were these , viz. Question 1. Whether thou art sensible thou hast done evil or hurt to Truth in the Publication of thy great Book , entituled , The Christian-Quaker distinguished , & c ? Quest. 2. Whether thou hast any better thoughts of our Second day's Meeting now , than thou hadst when thou wrotest that Book , as not now to esteem the said Meeting Apostate , & c ? Quest. 3. Whether thou lookest upon the said Meeting now in a capacity to answer the Witness of God in thy Conscience ? To which thou only gave us this return , viz. I am not free to answer at present . Our Reason for the Questions was , That we might not spend our time in vain , or to no effect , in hearing thy Book read , which we should do , if we should undertake it , and have no assurance of thy having any better thoughts then of our said Meeting , than to deem it Apostate ? Or if thou didst not then look upon it as capable to answer the Witness of God in thy Conscience ? To which thou not being then free to answer , we might very well then not be free to hear thy Book read among us , nor be so imposed upon , as to spend our time upon such uncertainty , having no probability of thy performing thy own Proposition , with respect to the end proposed , whilst not prov'd sincere or Christian on thy parts Therefore thy Reflection upon our said Meeting , and supposing us like a Company of lazy or guilty Priests , for our refusal to suffer the reading of thy said Book amongst us , is both very unjust and scornful , and bespeaks thy Lording Imposing Spirit , thus infamously to upbraid us for not implicitly giving up to spend our precious time to answer thy prejudicate will and humour upon thy reserved dark uncertainty . And also as a farther aggravation of thy Injustice and Prejudice , thy taking our said Meeting 's Treatment of thee on this occasion , to be an Evidence of our affection to sit on the Seat of Vnrighteous Judgment . This also is thy unrighteous Conclusion and false Judgment upon our affection , and is no ways naturally deducible from our forementioned Treatment of thee . I have omitted many other Instances of thy abuse of Truth and Friends , leaving the righteous God to reckon with thee for all thy injurious dealing and hard speeches , as thou seemest to refer the Pen man to such a Reckoning , pag. 46 , 63. The Lord awaken thee out of this hardened gain-saying state , and deliver them that are betray'd by the Enemy , and preserve his Heritage in love and peace over this scornful , exalted , conceited , crooked , quarrelsom apostate Spirit . The Lamb shall have the Victory . CHAP. VII . A Letter in Two Parts , Which was sent in Manuscript to Francis Bugg , Except two Passages left out in favour to him , unless he will further expose himself to danger thereby . IN the first part , his fraudulent dealing against Samuel Cater about the 15 l. Fine . His Abuses against him and others . His Conceitedness , Pride , Scorn and Shallowness are detected and reprehended . In the Second part of the Letter , relating to Francis Bugg's Book , is evinced , 1. His unjust Reflection on the people call'd Quakers , and his being turned Informer . 2. His Judgment in espousing and presenting false Doctrine against the divine Light of the Son God in man. 3 His unjust Charge , and the collection thereof against certain Persons among us by name , who are the Servants of Christ , and against our faithful Womens Meetings . 4. His Instances for Proof of his Charge and Contempt , no proof thereof . 5. His Opposition to our Testimony for Mens and Womens Meetings in the Church of Christ ; and his scoffing and smiting thereat , no proof of his Charge , nor of their having No Relation to Scripture . 6. His upbraiding our sober and faithful Womens Meeting as an Idol , and comparing it to the Papists great Idol ; rebuked . 7. The same Challenge returned upon him , that we laid upon W. Rogers , being unanswered by either . 8. His Rambling impertinently , not following the terms of the Challenge , which therefore is further urged against him . 9. His charge of Imposition plainly proved false by the conclusive Recommendation of our Testimony instanced by him . 10. His grosly belying and abusing G. W. and his Conscience about Condescention and Accommodation . 11. His scornful Forgery on a Certificate from Huntington Meeting : His falsly representing them therein , proved very wicked , on his own Concession . 12. His scornful detraction against R. Richardson , his Impertinency and silliness in opposing DEACONESSES , as found out of some Popish Author , &c. 13. His scornfully writing and reflecting on G. Whitehead ; and his insolent Reviling , Boasting , Abuse and Slander , confuted by Certificate from divers Persons of Credit . 14. His trumpeting abroad the Fame of Henry North , Knight , &c. disgustful . A Proposition and Advice to Repentance and publick and plain Condemnation of his Wicked and Scurrilous Book aforesaid , with desire of an Answer shortly , &c. [ But no such Answer ( nor any ) as yet return'd , being now above six weeks since this Letter was left at Ely Prison with Samuel Cater ▪ to be conveyed to him ] With a Postscript since added . The First Part. Francis Bugg ; UPon the perusal of thy two Letters lately sent me , the one directed to Samuel Cater in Ely Goal , and the other to my self , and the rest of the second day Meeters ( as thy terms are . ) And since thou art become such an open contending Adversary , I thought my self the more concerned in Conscience to take some notice , and give thee my sence of thy proceeding and treatment in the Controversies thou hast so confidently undertaken , and become an officious Advocate in , that yet thou mayest be cautioned to stop thy pernicious Current , and destructive Race thou art running , and seriously bethink thy self , and Repent , before thy final Destruction ▪ which I clearly perceive thy extraordinary Conceitedness , Pride , Scorn and Envy , &c. do tend to bring upon thee . By the way , I observe thy Allegations against Samuel Cater , about the old Difference between thee and him so long depending , touching the FINE laid upon thee for him , as a Preacher , for which thou confessest , That thy Cousin George Smith , as his Wifes Agent , made thee Restitution ; and yet I perceive thou art uneasie under that Restitution ( as thou callest it ) thou seemest concerned that several Friends now bring up that old concern , since thou published thy Book . But how did George Smith make thee Restitution ? Did not he proffer thee half the Fine to stop thy Turbulency ? but thou by Craft got beyond him for the whole , &c. wherein he and many more are greatly dissatisfied ; and which , if the Friends in those parts give a circumstantial Narrative of the whole transaction , and of thy Selfish Craft , Over-reaching and Fraudulency in that case , and be as free in their Publication , as thou hast been against many faithful Servants of Christ , in thy confused scurrilous piece of Impertinent Prate , Malice and Scorn , I am perswaded it will greatly redound to thy Dis-repute and Infamy in the Eyes of all sorts of intelligent Persons , and lower thy Topsail to thy great abasement , shame and confusion of Face . Thou makest thy own terms for the repayment of the whole 15 l. that thy Cousin George Smith ( thou sayest ) by S Cater 's Wifes order , paid thee in Satisfaction for the Fine , thou suffered from him ( as thou pretendest ) And now I have the Money ( sayest thou . ) But I never yet understood that Samuel Cater's Wife did order him to pay the whole 15 l. neither would he have done it , but that thou madest him believe , It was not for love of Money thou wouldst have the whole tendred , &c. for thy Word's sake ▪ Thou confessest he first proffered thee 5 l. and when THAT would not do , he proffered thee 7 l. 10 s. Thus far it seems was his proffer to pacefie the business on thy part : The other part , to make it up 15 l. he did deposit , in expectation thou wouldst return it him , so he understood by thy smooth and crafty Pretensions , That THY END WAS NOT FOR MONEY , &c. Thus he , poor , well-meaning man was insnared , and S. Cater become the sufferer . But upon what account got'st thou the whole 15 l from him , seeing the Penalty of the Conventicle Act doth not exceed 10 l. upon a Hearer , for the Poverty of the Preacher , or in default of his payment ? And yet hast thou the boldness to assert , That if the Justice please , he may lay the 20 l. upon any single Person present , of the Hearers . But by what Law may he do so ; if the Pena●ty upon any one for anothers Offence amount not in the whole , to above the sum of 10 l. as 't is twice over limited in the Conventicle Act ? For though the Justice be impowered to levy the 20 l. by Warrant , as aforesaid ( as the Words of the Act are ) Vpon the Goods and Chattels of any such PERSONS , who shall be present at the same Conventicle , in case the Preacher be a Stranger , and his Name and Habitation not known , or is fled , and cannot be found , or in the judgment of the Justice , shall be thought unable to pay the same . Note , that 't is upon any such PERSONS , in the Plural , not upon any one Person the Fine is so to be levied ; 't is to be proportioned , so as that no one Person shall be lyable to pay above 10 l. for any one Meeting , in regard of the Poverty of any other Person or Persons , as the express Words of the Act are . See what a mistaken Lawyer thou art . And was not the said 15 l. an arbitrary punishment of thy own inflicting , both Illegal and Extrajudicial ? What an arbitrary Persecutor wast thou therein ? Mayest thou not be ashamed to cry out against Imposition , arbitrary Authority , and yet be such an arbitrary Imposer , and thy own Carver , to serve thy own fraudulent Enterprizes ? IGNOBLE AND BASE ! And now to excuse thy arbitrary , extorsive Fraud , to assert that which is contra formam Statuti● in the case : Be ashamed of such Collusion . I cannot but take notice of thy saying , Thou toldst him thou wouldst have the whole tendred , which done , thou shouldst make it appear that thy End was NOT ONLY for Money . And how rarely hast thou mended the matter now ? Thou madest him believe 't was not for love of Money ; but now to mince and smooth it over , thy end was not ONLY for Money : It seems thy end was then in a great part for Money ; but thou shouldst have told him plainly aforehand how far thy end was for Money , and how far 't was not for Money , that so he might not have been defrauded out of the whole 15 l. and thereby poor Samuel Cater his Wife and Children sufferers in their Estate , meerly for quietness sake , from thy complaints and clamours ; if thy end was not ONLY , but PARTLY for Money , thou mightst have been content with half of the 15 l. which G. Smith proffered thee ; but it seems thy end was so WHOLLY for Money , that thou wouldst have the WHOLE Fifteen Pound , according to thy own account : Thus Selfish , Arbitrary and Avaricious wast thou . What a mean shift is it therefore for thee to say , Thy end was not ONLY for Money ? We see what sorry shifts and slighty Subterfuges a bad Cause must have . And as a person conscious to thy self , disquieted and uneasie for a pretence , thou now makest this Proposition ( namely ) S. Cater 's signing a Paper like this which follows , of thy own forming ; and then thou wilt return the whole 15 l. Thy Paper is this , viz. † Memorandum , That I S. Cater do hereby testifie , that is my judgment , That all Friends in the Ministry , where they are Strangers , ought to tell the Name and Habitation upon the apparent sight of the Informers coming into a meeting , taking friends names in writing , or otherwise , in order to convict the Meeting , that so we may all stand in a like suffering capacity . Or if any have not freedom thus to do , that then they ought to make satisfaction to such who suffer for them through their concealing their Names and Habitations ; and that such as refuse to perform his or their part in either of these two Propositions , ought from thenceforth to be reputed blame-worthy , and noted as such ▪ Witness my hand , the day above-written , per me . [ Thus far thy Prescription . ] Further adding , viz. I say , signe this Paper , or one like it , and I will return the said 15 l. for the reason aforesaid . And this thou esteem'st a Condescention sufficient . Thus art thou become a Dictator and Prescriber and Imposer upon others : Here thou hast made a general Rule and Prescription , as condition of thy returning the 15 l. to S. C. [ such an improbable condition as thou couldst not reasonably suppose would be complied with . Thus insincere thou appearest . ] Here 's a Canon , an Edict of thy framing , who hast made a great part of thy Book against Canons , Prescriptions , Rules , Edicts , Orders , Excommunications , &c. How consistent art thou in thy work ? yea , and if the Ministers will not observe this thy Canon to perform it , then to be reputed Blame-worthy , and noted as such ; and this thou wouldst have S. Cater subscribe . But thy Canon or Prescription is illegal , lame and defective ; yea , it exceeds the severity and extent of the Conventicle Act , which no where compels all Friends in the Ministry , where thy are strangers , to tell their Names and Habitations upon their apparent sight of Informers coming into a Meeting and taking Friends Names in writing or otherwise ; nor are any of the Meeters compelled by Law to tell their Names to Informers . Thus Arbitrary , Illegal and Foolish too art thou in thy Canon and Constitution ; thou wouldst enforce upon Friends of the Ministry , where they are strangers , who sometimes may be silent in a Meeting , and sometimes ministring when Informers come in to take Names , by thy Canon the Ministers in silence must tell their Names and Habitations to Informers , and those that are ministring must stop to tell the Informers their Names and Habitations . This illegal Imposition of thine I further except against , in that it tends to gratifie the Informers , and forward them in their designs and prosecution , for a more speedy and easie Conviction ; * for if they get their Names thus readily told aforehand , as thy Canon and Prescription requires , they go presently to the Justices , swear the Offence , and cause the Conviction in the absence of the party concerned . In consideration of which , divers of us , even of late time , in the Meetings at Westminster have not had freedom presently to tell our Names to Informers and Officers , to leave them to inform the Justices what they please upon Oath , without controul , in our absence , but rather we have chosen to go to the Justices , that there we may tell our Names to them , and have opportunity to object to their faces against any Mis-informations . Thus thou hast failed and shewed thy shortness and shallowness in thy imperious and illegal Prescription and Imposition . As for thy pressing for the Preachers who are Strangers to tell their Names , as aforesaid , and so to be in an Equal capacity with the Hearers in suffering . 1 st , We cannot make a Law to enjoyn them to tell their Names to Informers , which the Law requires not : I know none that refuse to tell their Names to the civil Magistrate . We know the Preachers generally are most struck at , and most liable to suffer , and the Penalties are most severe upon them , as 20 l. for a first , and 40 l. for a second Offence ( so called ) and if Strangers , they are not wholly free from Sufferings ( as thou sayest . ) But all Preachers more lyable in the first place to suffer Imprisonment , &c. than others , being most envyed and aimed at by the Persecutors . 2 dly , We cannot in point of Christianity , Truth or good Conscience , deem the Preacher an Offender , if we own his Ministry , So as to lay an Obligation upon him not only to tell his Name to Informers , but to be the greatest Sufferer . Truth 's interest and cause is but one in Minister and Hearer , and Christian love leads us therein to sympathize and suffer one with another in Spirit ; yea , and outwardly too , if there be necessity , and not to make preaching the Gospel an offence , any more than meeting or hearing it Preacht , seeing the Labour , and Pains , and greatest Hazard commonly is the Preachers , the advantage thereof is the Hearers . And if we have true Unity with the Gospel Preachers , we shall not complain against them , because of the Fines , nor think our selves to be bound under thy Prescription or Canon , who art both in Dis-union with them , and Enmity against them , much less to follow thy Crafty method , to pay our selves out of their Estates , when fined for them , or for their not telling their Names to Informers on sight , &c. 3 dly , If thou makest the Preachers such Offendors , as that for want of telling their Names to Informers , they must be Responsible to the full , or wholly for the Fines laid upon Hearers on their account , and thereupon thy Eye is so severe upon them , as if they were the greatest Offendors . This is but the same Spirit that 's in the Persecutors and Informers , that 's not in unity with , but in Enmity against the Gospel-Ministers . This would not lay down its Life for the Brethren , that will not suffer 5 l. or 10 l. for them : And then I presume there 's no danger of thy suffering much on that account , who couldst so craftily repay thy self the whole 15 l. from Samuel Cater . In this very Action , and thy malicious Book , thou appearest a Person more ready to turn Informer against the true Ministers and Servants of Christ , than to lose 10 l. on any of their account , by thy offensive Characters and Popish Comparisons thou hast put upon them , particularly upon George Fox , William Penn , George Whitehead , Stephen Crisp , Alexander Parker , Thomas Salthouse and John Burnyeat , whom thou hast represented in Print as Apostates , Antichristian , Innovators , Imposers , Popish , &c. for their Christian advice in divers particulars , cited by thee in thy printed Book , De Christiana Libertate , with thy scandalous defaming Observations upon them severally , from page 32. to page 57. to prove thy Unjust charge of doing Violence to our first Principles of Vnion , which they and we all utterly deny . 4 thly , And the more like an Informer hast thou appeared , in ambitiously dedicating thy Book to a Great Man , i. e. Henry North , Knight , and in shewing that thou designed it for the Magistrates , in pretending to have laid before them a clear Demonstration for Liberty of Conscience ; thy Book being in two Parts , as is confest in the Title , and both Bound up and made to go in one : So that if the Magistrates see the first Part for Liberty of Conscience , ( which is not thy own ) they are liable to see thy second Part , wherein ( as an Enemy to Christian-Liberty ) thou art bitterly inveighing and clamouring against many faithful Servants and Ministers of our Lord Jesus Christ ( who are well approved among the People called Quakers ) for their signifying and giving their Christian Advice and Sence , in things needful to be practised in the Church , whereby thou art opposing the Liberty of their Consciences , which they have in Christ Jesus ; and art endeavouring to expose them as obnoxious and offensive to the Magistrate and outward Government , rendering them Tyrannical and Popish , like the Pope's Councils , &c. Thus false Informer-like , thou hast broke all Bonds of Christian Friendship , Society and Church-Order , and hast acted the part of a treacherous , persecuting Informer , in the very nature , purport and series of thy Book . And I doubt not , but thy Infamous work will become odious to all Serious , Religious and Impartial Dissenting Protestants , the more it comes to Light , and to be strictly scand , and that thou wilt appear thereby not only as a turbulent , but perfidious , treacherous Person , and malicious Informer against thy own Society , and therefore not to be trusted by any other Societies or People , on any Religious and sociable account . Thou hast also in thy Letter scurrilously abused and misrepresented S. Cater , J. Parks , and my self , and also the Womens Meeting , as That Samuel Cater had 10 l. presently sent him out of the Treasury from London : And that The Women's Meeting gathered so much Money for James Parks , upon his pretence of being Robbed . Both which I have made enquiry into , and find them false in Fact ; Samuel Cater belyed , the Women's Meeting belyed , and James Parks belyed , in the state of these Accusations . Be ashamed therefore of such Abuses , or produce Proof both of Fact and Circumstance , as stated by thee . Be ashamed also of thy saying , James Parks acted the part of an Oliverian Preacher , or G. W. once at Snare-Hill , or like some SVCH PENSIONERS . Didst thou ever tell me of any thing thou hadst against me at Snare-Hill ? I am not Conscious to my self , but am sure thou dost shamefully belye me and J. P. in calling us Pensioners . What Pension , Wages , or yearly Stipend dost thou charge me or us withal ? What an unconscionable Defamer art thou ? Dost thou know what Pensioner means ? This is somewhat like thy espousing and printing the Report of Nicholas Lucas's saying , That I went up and down to Cheat the Country . And thy affirming , That truly my Behaviour hath manifested the truth thereof , page 150. of thy Book . Thus in thy Letter before , sent after me in Manuscript , without the least occasion given thee by me , that I know of ; since which to amend the matter of thy Scandalous defaming abuse of me , before cited , thou addest this Parenthesis , viz. [ I reckon he meant not of Money , but the People of their Liberty they have right to ] Which is also a Slander and base come-off , and thousands of God's People are able to testifie against these thy defaming and insolent Lyes . I never was accounted a Cheat and Pensioner before . As also in thy calling Thomas Rudyard LYING LAWYER , for saying , Thou paidst thy Money Voluntarily before Distress was made on thy Goods : This I shewed Thomas Rudyard , and he counts it a foul abuse , slander and defamation upon his Person and Employment , to call him Lying Lawyer , supposing thou placest his Lying upon the word Voluntarily . If thou didst pay or deposit thy Fine on thy Appeal , and so prevented Distress ( as he understood thou then didst at that time ) he accounted it Voluntary , in respect of the Law , because the Act of Parliament in that case doth not compel thee to pay thy Fine upon entring thy Appeal ; for that the Appeal may be entred within one weeks time after the Fine is paid , OR Distress made ; so that 't is in the Appealants choice whether to pay the Fine or suffer Distress first ; for the Particle OR is disjunctive between both . Where is now the LYING LAWYER ? Art not thou herein manifest to be the LYING DEFAMER , that hast so little regard to the Reputation or Credit of others ? Where 's thy Conscience , or doing as thou wouldst be done by ? Thy Envy and Defamation stops not here , but thou hast falsly accused us ( of the Second days Meeting ) with loving to have the Pre-eminence : He that searches and knows our Hearts , sees and will judge thy false Judgment and Abuse in this and many other things ; as also in thy false and abusive Insinuation in telling of the Sums , Gratuities and large Pensions , privately extended to such ( speaking of James Parks ) and others of his Fraternity : And which far exceed THAT of the Bason and Platter , we usually , and with too much confidence ( sayst thou ) bespatter the Professors withal , seeing we do the same thing for which we condemn them only a little privater . [ Thus far thy false and abusive Accusation against such as James Parks and his Brethren . ] Oh horrid Impudence and Falshood ! be ashamed hereof : Thou heapest up Slanders and Defamations against the Innocent , for which God will rebuke thee . 'T is not unknown how many of us spend our Strength , Labour and Substance in the service of the Lord and his People in many respects , wherein I for one have not had the least share , though now by thee rendred a Cheat and a Pensioner . Oh! blush and be ashamed of such abominable Lyes and scurrilous Detractions . To conclude thy Letter , on thy falshood against the Womens Meeting gathering Money , &c. thou scornfully inferrest , that therein they have forfeited their Charter , mentioned in thy Book , p. 37. and deserves a COERANTO to be brought , &c. I cannot but take notice what a liberty thou takest to scoff , mock and jeer against our Religious Christian Womens Meeting , and how abusive and silly thou art therein , although thou hast often scornfully twitted me with the words LEARNED FRIEND , in thy Book and Letters , as if it were such a great Crime to ascribe that to any Friend , whilst yet thou art ambitious to shew thy self a learned Person . Here to shew thy Learning in the Latin Tongue , thou tellest us of a COERANTO , which is no good Latine to be sure , and thou mayst be questioned in what Language thou hadst the Expression . * I suppose thou hast lately heard Discourses of Quo Warranto about the City-Charter , upon which from thy own imaginary conceit thou writest us COERANTO in a large Italick Character , that it may appear how learned and skilled thou art in Latine and Law ; and likewise we must have a Latine Title to thy Book , second Part , i. e. De Christianâ Libertate : But where thou learnedst this Title , and what stress or Emphasis canst thou place upon its being in Latine more than if it had been in English , i. e. Concerning Christian-Liberty ? For Liberty of Conscience asserted , is not the English of thy Latine Title , but varies from it in the Terms , as well as in the Nature of it : And thy prosecution for Liberty of Conscience , as asserted by thee , appears a Liberty not only in opposition to Persecution , but also to our Godly Care , Advice , Counsel and Admonition , relating to good Order and Church-Government amongst us , and testified unto in our Paper opposed by thee in thy Book ( from page 41 , to page 51. ) And if this must be the extent of thy Christian-Liberty , thou mightst better have entituled thy Book , Pro Libertate Carnali ; for it seems the Liberty pleaded for by thee , admits not of Spiritual Censures , Reproofs , Advice or Judgment , according to Christ's Law exhibited , as appears by thy scurrilous opposition & infamous Characters thou givest to our said Paper , partly cited in thy Book , and most Unchristianly and Unjustly made thy great Proof of our Doing Violence to our first Principles of Vnion , and consequently turned Antichristian ; and such thou renderest William Penn , George Whitehead , Alexander Parker , Stephen Crisp , Thomas Salthouse , John Burnyeat , whose Names thou hast exposed in Print , as the Persons unjustly charged by thee . But we have not yet concluded thy Learning in Coeranto , but must view a little more of it in thy Book , on the passage thou hast borrowed on trust from William Rogers his Translation , as he confesseth , for which we have only his own Authority in these Words , ( viz. ) Which for the sake of some , I thus Translate , ( 7th Part , Christian Quaker , p. 62. ) 'T is in thy 125 , 126 , 127 , 128 pages , out of Bishop Hooper ; the first Words , Scitis quod res sancta , et vera quo magis examinatur . Thou accepts his Translation hereof in these words , KNOW YE , that by how much the more , &c. Here Scitis , the very first Word , which is , Ye know , in the Indicative , is falsly translated know ye , as Scite in the Imperative ; whereas by Scitis in this place was intended Indication , Demonstration , or Proof , and not imperatively Teaching ; and likewise Nam quod variis modis tentatur ; ac probatur , modo pium ac sanctum FVERIT , Jacturam ab hostibus nullam sentit , is thus translated ( viz. ) For that which is tryed and proved after various manners , if IT HATH BEEN , &c. instead of IT SHALL BE ; for FVERIT is exact future ( as they term it . ) Many things of the Types and Shadows under the Law , as Tythes and Offerings , &c. have been holy , but shall not be again , afficitis is made afflict instead of affect , and also Legem & Evangelium Dei , are translated The Word of God , instead of The Law and Gospel of God ; then at last Judicio , is , to the Judgment , when it should be more properly by the Judgment ▪ But the most material Mistake is in the very first word Scitis , falsly translated , as to the Mood . But these Instances are only to shew thee what a ridiculous Novice and Ludibrie thou hast rendred thy self , both in Writing and Print , even to School-Boys : I saw lately a School-Boy of Eleaven Years old Laugh at thy Absurdity , as a Person wise in thy own Conceit . Yet whilst thou wouldst make a show and flourish of Learning , thou hast here taken a false Translation upon an implicit Faith and blind Credulity : Thou that art such a fierce opposer of implicit Faith and blind Obedience , and hast so often scoft at me for the Words , Learned Friend , in reference to R. R. I wonder thou art not ashamed of such scornful treatment , and medling so often with Latine , when I find thou canst not write true English in many things . This is only a small Check to thy Pride and empty Conceits , this not being one of the absurdest Faults or Falshoods thou hast presented the World withal . Come down and be humbled before the All-seeing God. From thy antient Friend , and yet Well-wisher , though insolently abused by thee , G. Whitehead . Middlesex , the 22d day of the 7th Moneth , 1682. The Second Part of the said Letter . Francis Bugg ; NOw concerning thy Book , stiled , DE CHRISTIANA LIBERTATE , or Liberty of Conscience , &c. 1 st , I observe thou beginest unjustly to accuse and reflect upon the People called Quakers in the very Title page , in these Words , viz. And the mischief of Impositions amongst the People called Quakers , &c. In two Parts . And that thou concernest the Magistracy with it , both in thy Epistle dedicated to H. North , Knight , ( as being obliged to publish it for the Information of the Magistracy , &c. ) as also in thy Epistle , directed to the Noble Bereans , thou concernest the Magistrates , as having in the Book prefixed ( i. e. thy first Part ) laid before them many weighty Arguments for Liberty of Conscience , &c. So that to the Magistrates thou hast given thy Information against the People called Quakers , as having mischievous Impositions among them ; which we utterly deny ; and thy Scornful Malicious Book proves it not . Thus thou art turned Informer to the Magistrates against an Innocent suffering People , whom thou hast so long walked amongst : How darest thou appear in their Meetings , and thus act the part of a treacherous , malicious Informer against them , even to the Magistrates ? Oh! Blush and be ashamed of this thy hateful Work. 2 dly , Thou having entituled thy self to to the matters contain'd in a Treatise , entituled , Liberty of Conscience asserted and vindicated , by thy high Commendations given of it to H. North , as Being perswaded it will be of Good Service ; and ( in thy Epistle to the Bereans ) A clear Demonstration , &c. And in thy Preface to the Reader , of the Author , thou thus sayest , viz. His Judgment upon this Subject , is my Judgment . Now observe what this Author's Judgment is concerning the Light in men , whereupon he chiefly placeth his Demonstration for Liberty of Conscience . In page 4. he saith , viz. Their Natural Light , derived to them from their first Creation , dictating to them what they ought to do , and what not , and enabling them to pass a Judgment upon themselves of their due behaviour towards God , &c. With some other passages of like nature in the said Treatise . Here ( Francis ) thou hast presented H. North , and the Magistrates with unsound and unscriptural Doctrine , and appearest Apostate , and corrupt in thy Judgment , in calling the Light in men ( which thus dictates their duty ) Their natural Light , derived to them from their first Creation : Herein thou hast wrongfully informed H. N. and the Magistrates about the Principle , the Light in men , contrary to the Quakers Testimony , born from the beginning concerning the Light in men , which is according to the holy Apostle's Testimony , John 1.4 , 9. that In the Word , or Son of God , was Life ; and that Life was the Light of men ; And that this is not a natural or created Light , but a Supernatural and Divine Light of the Christ Jesus , the Son of God. 3 dly , And now ( Francis ) having thus misrepresented our Principle to the Magistrates , and so mis-informed them about the Light in men . Thou proceedest upon an unjust charge of Impositions against certain Persons , chiefly concerned , owned and approved among the People called Quakers , whom thou scornfully callest G. Fox , and those of Party with him ; and hast exposed the Names of some of them in Print , whom thou meanest by that Party , as William Penn , George Whitehead , Stephen Crisp , Alexander Parker , Thomas Salthouse , John Burnyeat , p. 51. And what hast thou to charge all these with , that thou hast printed a Book and informed the Magistracy against them ? It is The mischief of Impositions ; The inconsistency betwixt the Church-Discipline , or Order and Government erected by those , and THAT in the Primitive times ( as in the Title of thy second part . ) It is also , That there is Violence done to our first Principles of Vnion ; Consequently Tyranny introduced , and our Society turned Antichristian , p. 32 , 33. ( According to W ▪ P's Proposition in his Address , thus falsly applyed by thee against himself , and the rest of us before-named . ) Now Francis , I must plainly tell thee , this Inconsistency and Violence charged by thee against us , we utterly deny , and the Instances thou givest do not at all prove it , As first , G. F's Paper for Women's Meeting distinct , that they might be in the practice of pure Religion , to visit the Fatherless and the Widows , and to see that all be kept from the spots of the World , &c. [ As 't is cited at large by thee , p. 33 , 34 , 35 , 36 , 37. ] Now ( Francis ) where 's the Inconsistency charged ? Can there be an Inconsistency where there 's no Contradiction , nor the least opposition ? Thy judging such Women's Meetings as are for the Practice or Promotion of pure Religion , in the practical parts of it , inconsistent with the Christian-Discipline , Order and Government in the Primitive times , doth bespeak not only that thou dost not well understand what Inconsistent means , but also that thou hast undertaken a Charge thou art never able to make good . And thy charge of Violence done to our first Principles of Union is worse than Inconsistent . And thy scornfully telling of the Women's Charter and New Order , is no Proof ( man ) of thy Charge : Where 's the Inconsistency and Violence that 's charged , done by the faithful Womens Meetings among us , or by any of us , by encouraging them to meet for those Religious and Charitable ends and services mentioned ? How hast thou acted the part of an ignorant conceited Scoffer , instead of proving thy Charge before cited ? Besides , the very self-same Paper writ by G. F. which thou hast cited as an instance of our Inconsistency and Violence , was received , owned and approved at a Quarterly Meeting at Kendal in Westmorland , in the Year 1671. And another written in approbation thereof , and subscribed by some of thy own party , as John Wilkinson , Richard Stephanson , Henry Garnet , and Twenty one more Friends , for encouraging of the Women's assembling , and Religious Charitable Services before proposed , both which are cited at large in our Book , Entituled , The Accuser of our Brethren , from pag. 98 , to p. 102. Thus contradictory art thou to some of thy own Brethren , in thy condemning the same Paper as an Imposition , Inconsistency and Violence to our first Principles , which they so plainly approved of . 4 thly , Again , in pursuance of thy unrighteous Charge before cited , thou recitest four passages out of a Paper of ours , dated , London , the 27th of the 3d Moneth , 1675. which was given as our Judgment and Advice in certain things needful , for good Order among us ( as we believed ) The first Passage thou hast cited , is that for Marriages to be at least twice propounded to the Meetings , that are to take care therein , &c. before they are accomplished , &c. Now where 's the Inconsistency here , with the Discipline in the Primitive Christian Church , or the Violence done to our first Principles of Union ? Instead of proving thy charge by this instance , we have in thy Observation a piece of Scorn and Mockery , viz. This notable , if not universal Council : Their new stamped Government , p. 42. Oh! be ashamed of such Scorn and Folly ! Is this thy proof of thy charge ? Is it a violation to our first Principles of Union , to have Marriages proposed at least twice to the Meetings concerned ? ( both Mens and Womens , where both are established ) However , to be twice proposed to such Meetings as are established , and to take care therein , to understand that the Persons be clear , and Friends satisfied , before the Marriage be accomplished ? And this has been these many Years practised among us ; and I know no true Union broken thereby , nor any violation done to our first Principles thereof : Be ashamed therefore of thy fruitless attempts , in giving such an high charge against us , when thou canst make no proof it . 5 thly , Concerning our Testimony on behalf of Mens and Womens Meetings in the Church of Christ ; as for their Rise and Establishment , being in the counsel of God , and for the encouraging Faithful and Grave Women therein , and to admonish them that discountenance or weaken their Hands in the Work and Service of the Lord , &c. Thou callest this A Decree , a decretal Order ; This New fashioned Edict , p. 45 , 46. And sayst , It has no relation to Scripture-Authority , Precept or President ; no relation to the Example of the Holy men of God recorded in Scripture , nor any command of God or Jesus Christ. Why no Relation to them ? How provest thou that ? what because we have not every particular circumstance of Persons and things exprest ? Whence it follows not that this has no relation to Scripture or President , &c. Holy Women and Sisters in the Faith , Elder Widdows that were honourable , and Deaconesses , did many Religious and Charitable Services in the Primitive Christian Churches : What then might they not meet and confer together for one anothers help and encouragement in those Services they had , and were frequently imployed in ? Can it either be a violence to their Principles of Union for such to meet together ? or have their Assemblies no relation to Scripture ? What contrariety thereto have they ? Surely we alwayes accounted our Religious Meetings , to serve one another in Love , consistent with our Union and the Principles thereof . And so for Godly Women to meet for those Religious and Charitable ends and Services , for which their Assemblies are intended , must needs be consistent with the same Principles of Love and Union , and tend to the Increase thereof , and not to the Violation thereof , as thou hast falsly charged . Upon our Admonition , Not to discountenance or weaken their Hands in the Work and Service of the Lord. Thou maketh this observation , viz. See what a strict and severe admonition is uttered forth , even as if it had come from the Pope's Council of Jesuits and crafty Fryars , [ Scoffing and Smiting still at the Womens Meetings ] p. 46 , 47. How now ( Francis ) is this thy treatment and comparison of us ? Hadst thou no better than the Pope's Council of Jesuits and crafty Fryars to compare us unto , in our Testimony and Admonition ? Oh! be ashamed of such foul , sordid , and scornful , and false treatment , who instead of proving thy Charge of Inconsistence and Violence , as before , now abuseth us , mocks and scoffs , and scandallizeth us , like a conceited proud Fool. 6 thly , Be ashamed also of thy scornfully upbraiding us with our Womens Meetings , as an Idol of our own erecting ; and asking , Why should it not publickly be brought to Light , and made as manifest as the Lord Cromwell made the Papists great Idol , to wit , the Rood of Grace ( which had goggling Eyes , and would smile when a good Gift was offorded to it ) when he caused it to be brought to Paul's Cross , where the People tore it all to pieces , in King Henry the 8 ht's time , p. 47. Oh , thou ungodly Wretch and malicious Informer ! is this a fit Comparison and Instance to present the Magistrates with , against our Christian , Religious , Charitable and Sober Womens Meetings ? And dost thou under such an abominable and odious Comparison thus expose them to the Magistrates , for their Meetings , to be torn to pieces ? Thou vile Wretch , blush and be ashamed of such malicious , scornful and defaming Impertinences , thus instead of proving thy before-cited Charge , to act the malicious , reviling and false accusing Informer against God's People ; then scornfully concludest thy Observation with these words , viz. This notable , not Scriptural , but Anti-scriptural Edict , p. 48. Which is a false Conclusion , without Premises , and a shameful begging the Question , wherein thou art an Imposer ; for not one sentence or word in all that said Paper of our sence and Advice hast thou proved ANTI-SCRIPTVRAL , or directly contrary to Scripture , as thy terms are , p ▪ 79. Thou shouldst then have shewn us what Scripture forbids either faithful Womens Assembling , or those Religious and Charitable ends and services proposed , which their Meetings are intended for ? I dare challenge thee in this to prove thy charge of Anti-scriptural . 7 thly , I do affirm , thou art so far from making good thy Charge , that for all thy Attempts , I have still occasion to return the same charge upon thee that we did upon William Rogers , which for a pretence thou citest , but dost not answer it , p. 39. viz. What new and unchristian Doctrines and Practices are we fallen into ? We find no proof nor discovery thereof in all thy Book . I do profess seriously ( however thou scoffingly callest me a notable serious George ) I see no cause nor reason thou shewest for the great noise & rumble thou makest about outward Laws , Prescriptions , Orders , Edicts or Decrees , outward form of Government , Apostacy , Innovation , Impositions , Lording over Faith , over Conscience , &c. ( To which I may add thy terms , Womens Charter , Grant , Confirmation , New Order , Decretal Order , New fashion'd Edict , Popes Council , Papists great Idol , Canonical Rules , New spiritual Lords , Decrees , Canons , Edicts of Men , Tyrannical proceedings , &c. ) whilst thou shewest to us no unjust , no unlawful nor uncomely Order or Proceedings amongst us , as a People , nor yet givest us any Catalogue or Instance of those Impositions , Innovations , New Doctrines or Practices brought in and received amongst us , which are INCONSISTENT with our first Testimony to the Light and Grace of God within , and teaching thereof , or thereby condemned as Evil , or wholly unnecessary in themselves ( as our words are . ) 8 thly , This thou dost not answer , but Marvellest that G. Whitehead should have the Confidence thus to call for a Catalogue of New Orders that are introduced among us ; or rather ( sayst thou ) Impudence to deny such things as are every Moneth put in practice among us . And therefore sayst , thou wilt bring forth Proof and President ; first the Confirmation of the Foundation of the Womens Meetings , namely , G. F 's Order by a general Council held at London , 1675. To all which I must tell thee , thou dost not follow the terms of the Challenge , but ramblest impertinently , telling us of New Orders , such things , the Confirmation of the Foundation of the Womens Meetings , &c. but provest not those things ( nor one thing ) practised among us as a People ; or that first Confirmation , as thou falsly callest it , to be Inconsistent with ( or contrary to ) our first Testimony to the Light and Grace of God within , and teachings thereof . 'T is not thy making a noise with New Orders , Decrees , &c. shall serve thy turn in this point ; but I challenge thee to prove that the setting up and encouraging our faithful Womens Meetings are contrary to the Light and Grace of God within and teachings thereof . This is matter thou hast undertaken to bring proof and president for . This is close to the terms of our Challenge , and thou hast but made shuffling , slubbering work about it . 9 thly , Moreover , what we propounded in our Paper aforesaid , ( which thou callest The Confirmation by a general Council held at London , Anno 1675. and which thou hast instanced for proof of thy Charge of Inconsistency and Violence , and consequently as Antichristian ) was tenderly concluded in these terms , viz. All which we recommend to the Evidence of Gods holy Witness in the Hearts of his People . * Why didst thou not take notice of this Conclusion , to have prevented thy false charge of Imposition , wherein thou hast contradicted thy Brother William Rogers ; for he hath divers times assented to and own'd the giving advice and counsel by way of Recommendation , distinguishing that from Imposition , as his own Books and Words are evidence . But thou cryst out , Impositions , Inconsistency , Violence to our first Principles of Vnion , on that very same Paper which is concluded by way of Recommendation to the Evidence of Gods holy Witness in the Hearts of his People . And to this and other Papers of Advice , Judgment , &c. thou hast opposed Liberty of Conscience , and so made void Spiritual Censures , contrary to the very Author thou hast printed , owned and espoused , as being of the same Judgment with thee , where he saith , pag. 138. part 1. 'T is very fit , that wheresoever you will suppose Errors to be sprung up , all the means Christ hath appointed for that end should be used to suppress them , and reclaim Men from them : Let their Mouthes be stopped with sound Doctrine and Spiritual Censures . The only Question is about the use of the Temporal Power in such things . — Principles and Opinions in the Mind were never extinguished by the punishing the Body . Here his Liberty of Conscience pleaded , is not from spiritual Censures , as thou hast perverted it , but from corporal Punishments . 10 thly , Whereas in our Book , Accuser , &c. pag. 127. we signified , that having these things in our Eye , viz. The great ends of true Religion and Christian Society , a godly Care over one another , provoking one another to Love and good Works , we can the more easily concur and accord , as to Circumstances and outward Methods ; and in the Wisdom of God so to condescend one to another , and accommodate matters , as not to divide about them , &c. Against this thou exceptest , in these words , viz. p. 96. I marvel that the Author of the Accuser , &c. which is said to be G. Whitehead , should have the Confidence thus to appear in Print , when his own Conscience tells him the contrary , instancing R. Smith of Colne , as not admitted to have his Wife , because he would not go into the Womens Meeting : The grand Opposer was G. W. — It may evidently appear how far G. W. was from Accommodation or Condescention , which he fallaciously pretends to the World , in order to deceive them , to cover their Deceit , Hypocrisie and Arbitrary Church-Government , Dominion and Lordship , &c. p. 97. And to aggravate the matter against G. W. in page 129. thou sayst , That the pretence of the Author of the Accuser , to Condescention and Accommodation is fallacious and false , and a meer piece of feigned Hypocrisie to amuse the Reader and delude the World. And likewise in pag. 150. thou art smiting at G. W. on the same account . Here thou hast brought my name upon the Stage in Print , but hast most grosly belyed me and abused me , as to my Conscience , in saying it tells me the contrary . Be ashamed of this thy presumptious bespattering and abusing me in Print ; for my Conscience tells me , I was real in what I proposed in Condescention and Accommodating matters , and that I was no deceiver therein , as thou proudly slanderest me . The Condescention and Accommodation was to those that had the great ends of true Religion , Christian care and love one to another in their Eye ; it was to the upright and tender hearted , and not to the exalted , hard and wilful . And I gave my Christian and tender Advice to the Person who then proposed his Intention , in order to convince him of the reasonableness of what I proposed , and he shewed no reason against it , but remained stiff and pertinacious , which I cannot impute to a real tender Conscience ; the woman was tender and flexible , and of a better Spirit . Therefore be ashamed of abusing and belying me in Print , as for appearing in Print contrary to my Conscience , as thou hast shamefully belyed me , and so falsly informed the Magistrates against me , as about Condescention and Accommodation ( and divers other things ) about which I must farther tell thee , The condescention of primitive Christians was to them of low degree , the strong in bearing with the weak , bearing one anothers burthens , and so fulfilling the Law of Christ. The Persons unto whom the Condescention was , were in a measure of the same faith and love ; it was not to false Brethren ( such as thou art ) or to false Apostles , deceitful Workers , who caused Divisions , &c. false Brethren that watched with an evil Eye , to such the true Apostle gave not place by subjection , no , not for an hour : What Apostolical condescention was then given to them ? There was an Apostolical authority and sharpness , against such evil Agents of Strife and Division ( such as thy self ) that they should be marked , as well as a condescention to weak ( yet upright-hearted ) Brethren . 11 thly , In the Certificate , printed by thee from Huntington-Meeting , to the Quarterly-Meeting in the Isle of Ely , about the said R. S. his publishing his Intentions of taking to Wife A. O. of Aldred , but grieved some Friends by rejecting their Counsel ; After some Friends , there 's this Parenthesis added , viz. [ Perhaps Richard Jobson and Tobias Hardmeat , G. Fox 's two principal Studs in that Country . ] This looks like a scornful Forgery of thy own framing and addition ; And I find no Advertisement to distinguish or except it as thy own , as thou hast done in thy Letter to W. P. about the Copy of Orders Recorded as Your Canon ( as thou scornfully callest them ) in the Quarterly — verbatim , Parenthesis excepted ( sayst thou ) p. 139. Remember thou hast confessed , That to expose and falsly represent a People , would be very wicked ; and such a Practice is , and ever was hated of God & good men , p. 208. Yet after thou hast promised to recite the said Certificate , p. 96. thou hast , as before , inserted the said scornful Parenthesis , viz. [ Perhaps R. Jobson and T. Hardmeat , G. Fox 's two principal Studs in that Country ] p. 97 , 98. Unto which thou hast subscribed Jasper Robins , Edward Neel , William Whitehead , James Parris , Thomas Bundy , Richard Tayler , Thomas Bagly , Nathaniel Cawthorn , Nathaniel Neel . Now I am perswaded , that these very Persons , Jasper Robins , and the rest , if they come to observe the said scornful Parenthesis inserted in their said Certificate , unto which their Names are subscribed , as well as the rest of it , and that without such Advertisement or Exception , as before , they 'l look upon it , and judge it as thy own Scurrility and gross Forgery , and thereupon they may testifie against thee , for exposing and falsly representing them in Print , to that which is none of theirs , and that therefore thou hast done that which is very Wicked , a practice that is and ever was hated of God and good Men , according to thy own Sentence . 12 thly , Whereas in thy printed Letter to Friends of our Meeting in London , thou sayest , That R. R. needed not be admired by G. W. in Print , for his great Learning , nor perhaps had not , only he hath found out some History , or Popish Author , which sayes , there were Deaconesses as well as Deacons ; which ( sayst thou ) was helpful to G. W. in his Preaching and Disputing for Womens Meetings lately in Huntingtonshire , and elsewhere , &c. p. 178. Thou mightest have forborn these and other scornful Detractions , cast upon R. R. and my self , and upbraiding him with , Oh! Profound Learning , Logick &c. He can easily answer thy Impertinencies and Silliness , and evince thy Pride and Conceit , in meddling with Learning and Logick , which thou hast so little of . As for R. R. he is known to be learned both as a Man and a Christian ; yet not admired by me for any acquired parts ; though without offence , he may be allowed his due in those things , without admiration or boasting , and therein to be prefered to thy self , who neither writest good English , nor understandest divers words of Learning thou makest use of improperly and impertinently , which I do not mention to detract from and upbraid thee , meerly because of such defect in Learning , but rather as a Reproof to thy high Conceit , and busying thy self so much in Scribling , and that about matters beyond thy capacity to mannage , or render a Reason to decide , and that thou mayest see that there are others can see and discover thy Ignorance and shallow Conceits , as even in this thy Objection against Deaconesses , concluding , That only R. R. hath found out some History or Popish Author , which says , there were Deaconesses as well as Deacons . In this thou hast shewn as well a great deal of ignorance of History , as scorn and contempt ; yea , not only Ignorance in that , but Presumption too , and as little Learning to be sure , in other respects , to place the proof of Deaconesses so indifferently upon some History or Popish Author , as if there were so little difference or distinction , but that if it be some History , then it may as well be said some Popish Author ; however , thou knowest not whether it be some History or Popish Author . But to correct such Ignorance and Presumption , there are Histories and Authors which are not Popish , yea , divers Protestant Authors , which affirm Deaconesses to have been in the Primitive Christian Churches , and they were called Diaconissae ▪ and even in Rom. 16.1 . Paul himself called Phaebe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( i. e. a Deacon , which is a Word borrowed of the Greek ) in Latin Ministra , in English A Servant or Minister . I hope thou wilt not call Paul a Popish Author , writing so to the Romans . And on Rom. 16.1 . 1 Tim. 5.9 . Deacon is said to be a Title of Office or Administration , given sometimes to Women , vide The Christian-Dictionary , by Thomas Wilson , Bagwell , and Andrew Simpson ; to which also agrees Edward Leighs Critica Sacra , and T. C's Greek Lexicon on the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , * given to Sister Phaebe , in Rom. 16.1 . We have William Cave's Lives of the Primitive Fathers for the three first Ages of Christianity , and that even in the time of the Emperor Trajan , there were Deaconesses that suffered , that were examined upon the Rack ( see fol. 21. ) As also I find in a Book , entituled A Brief of the Bible's History , by Enoch Clapham , Printed 1608. who writ against the Romish Idolaters , fol. 162. And in fol. 171. He thus affirms , For the Deacons all almost easily grant , that there were two sorts of Deacons , or Church-Servitors ; the first of Men , Acts 6.3 . &c. 1 Tim. 3.8 . The second of Women , 1 Tim. 5.9 . &c. Rom. 16.1 . That the first had the charge of gathering the Benevolence of the Saints ( especially every first day of the Week , 1 Cor. 16.1 . ) — That the second attended the Sick & Impotent , it is by many held . [ Thus far this Protestant Author , besides many other Protestants that might be cited in this very point , some whereof I told R. R. of , who says , He has many others he has not produced , and Challenges you to bring one approved Author , to shew that Women had no Service in the first Churches . ] And though the Rhemists grant there were Diaconissae or Deaconesses , I do not find that Dr. Fulk doth oppose them in that , but about their being concerned in the Sacraments , and in their Superstitions , Nunneries , denying Marriages , &c. ( as the Papists would have them . ) For as to Deaconesses , and their Services in the Christian Churches , there is great concurrence of History , and antient and modern Writers , as well Protestants , ( if not more ) as Papists . And therefore thy placing it upon some Popish Author , does greatly manifest not only Ignorance , but rather Presumption , Pride and Contempt against faithful Women's service in the Church of Christ : And I can assure thee , that I had not these precedent ( and other ) Citations from R. Richardson , but mostly from my own search and observations on the Authors themselves ; though R. R. may be better credited in his Affirmation on Knowledge , than thy self in thy ignorant Negation . 13 th , Again , I take notice of thy Charge against me , in thy said printed Letter to our Meeting in London , p 178. where scornfully writing against , and reflecting on G. W. his preaching and disputing for Womens Meetings in Huntingtonshire . Thou goest on in these words , viz. Where he took too much upon him , and behaved himself more like a Lordly Bishop , or Popish Prelate , than an humble Minister of Christ ; and by me at this time is , and stands impeached as an Enemy to Christian-Liberty , a Vsurper over the Conscience , the which I stand ready publickly to assert , maintain and vindicate , p. 178. Thus far thou in thy insolent Reviling and Abuse , boasting of thy pretended Impeachment against me : But I have met with no lawful nor due Impeachment from thee in any Gospel judicial way . Thou writest thus against me to the Friends of our Second day's Meeting in London , but they cannot own nor receive any such pretended and proof-less Impeachment against me upon thy bare Accusation , nor that thou hast any Jurisdiction to impeach me , as by thy unjustly comparing me to a Lordly Bishop , or Popish Prelate , and rendring me an Enemy to Christian-Liberty , an usurper over the Conscience : But this is but like thy accusing me as a Cheat , at having gone up and down to cheat the Country , after thou hadst flatter'd and fawn'd in another Letter , and intreated my assistance for the ending of the Controversie , as one that could do much in the matter ; but now revilest me all to nought , boasting how ready thou stands Publickly to assert , maintain and vindicate . And what ? But that G. W. took too much upon him in Huntingtonshire , and behaved himself more like a Popish Prelate , &c. An Enemy to Christian-Liberty . And what worse Marks and Characters of Infamy couldst thou have cast upon me ? and what more severe Excommunication or Bull couldst thou have exhibited in Print against me ? How like an exalted , malicious , prating Diotrephes ? how like a Pope ? how like the Accuser of the Brethren hast thou acted ? Thou accusest , scornest and railest , but provest nothing of matter charged : And can any reasonably think thou hast thy Proofs in readiness against me out of Huntingtonshire , of these black and infamous Characters thou hast cast upon me ? Thy own bare Accusations are no Proofs to be sure . The Lord rebuke this thy envious dark Spirit : And he will rebuke it . But ( Francis ) art not thou thy self against Christian-Liberty of Conscience ? and an usurper over the Womens Consciences ( so far as thou canst ) in thy perverse and ignorant opposition against Womens Meetings , who have a Conscience towards God , and our Lord Jesus Christ therein ? VVhat Liberty of Conscience dost thou allow them therein ? or to me in preaching and discoursing in Huntingtonshire , or elsewhere , thus to send out thy Roaring Bull against me in Print , without first either enquiring of me , or hearing me and my Accusers ( if there be any besides thy self ) face to face ? What kind of illegal Precipiancy art thou guilty of ! and yet none more ready to make a great clamour against Excommunications , Orders , Edicts , &c. than thy self ? Oh Imperious , Proud , Conceited Person ! Blush and be ashamed of such Abusive , Inconsistent and Self-contradictory Work ! Be ashamed of thy assuming such Power of Excommunication to thy self over thy Elders , Antient Friends and Brethren , who are approved Servants of Christ. How like a Popish Prelate , yea , like the Pope himself hast thou proudly , maliciously & imperiously acted against me and others of the faithful Servants & Ministers of Christ Jesus ? Be ashamed therefore and confounded because of thy Insolent and Slanderous Abuses against the Innocent ; and particularly of thy gross Lye against me and others , viz. That the holy Scripture is by us slighted , p. 152. Be ashamed , I say , of this abominable Lye. And for Confutation to thy abuse of me before , read the following Certificate from Persons of better Credit than thy self . Huntingtonshire . From our Monethly Meeting at Godmanchester , the 11th day of the 5th Moneth , 1682. WHereas George Whitehead hath been evilly traduced in two Letters of Francis Bugg's , and charged in one of them with behaving himself in Huntingtonshire like a Lordly Bishop or Popish Prelate , lately . — Now we whose Names are subscribed , do testifie , We never in this County , nor else-where at any time , saw any such thing ; and that he is a man far remote from any such matter ; but do believe he is a true Labourer in Gods service , and an humble Minister of the Gospel . Matthew Kay , Samuel Nottingham , Tobias Hardmeat , Robert Lister , Jasper Robins , John Wilsford , John Aversett , John Marshall , William Starling , Richard Snazdale , John King , David Tisoeth , Thomas Lyster , Richard Jobson . 14 th , And thy malicious scribling tends , in divers parts of it , unjustly to render us Obnoxious and Offensive to Authority , by wickedly and falsly rendring the Proceedings of some of our Christian Meetings Tyrannical and Antichristian , and comparing us to the Popes Councils , to Popes , &c. And all this to Henry North , Knight , and the Magistrates too , is next to prosecuting us for our Liberties or Lives . — So disgustful may be thy trumpeting and publishing in Print the Moderation of H. North , Knight , ( p. 194. ) and his mercifulness in taking notice of our threatned Ruin , and preventing it , &c. as in thy Epistle Dedicatory to him , that doubtless we think Henry North as a prudent man will not thank thee for thus trumpeting his Fame abroad in Print , on behalf of Dissenters ; for such kind of Ostentatious dealing is offensive and hateful to great Persons of Prudence , who would not have their goodness exposed to publick censure or reflection , nor be represented as Persons Popular for any dissenting Parties . I have many more things material against thy Book ; but I desire thee to accept of my Labour and honest Endeavours ; and what I have written thus largely to thee , as an act of Christian Condescention and good Will for thy Conviction , that thou mayst yet be abased and humbled unto Repentance and publick Condemnation of thy wicked and scurrilous Book , if the Lord will yet please to give thee an Heart to Repent and acknowledge the Truth , which thou hast deeply offended and sinned against with thy Lyes and Lightness . And I desire to know , if after the reading and perusal of this my large Letter , thou art at all minded to relent and retract thy Book , or any part of it , and accordingly to give forth a plain Condemnation or Recantation as publick . To this I expect answer shortly from thee , otherwise trouble me not with any disingenious or scurrilous Letters . Thy Abused ( yet Well-wishing ) Friend , George Whitehead . London , the 3 d day of the 8 th Moneth , 1682. Postscript since added . Wherein F. B's fallacy about the Record in the Quarterly Meeting Book in the Isle of Ely , his abuse of the Servants of Christ , his Contradiction about William Penn , his Scorn , Malice and Ranting Doctrine , are detected and reprehended . WHen I was lately in the Isle of Ely , I made enquiry about the account which thou F. Bugg givest in thy Observations , pag. 52. viz. concerning a Minister ( thou knowest who thou mentionedst ) being recorded out of the Vnity , for not taking his Wife according to the Order of Friends ( i. e. ) not publishing his Intentions before the Womens Meetings , as hereafter * will be further manifest ( sayst thou ) but not one recorded that ever thou remembrest for any breach of Gods Commandments , pag. 53. For which acount thou referest any man to search the Records of your Quarterly Meeting Book in Hadenham in the Isle of Ely , &c. But upon my enquiry I find , that Friends do positively give a contrary account , and do plainly affirm , that there were no Womens Meeting Then at that time in being in those parts ( or within that Monethly Meeting ) in Cambridgshire , where the said Person lives , who proposed his Intentions of Marriage but once before the Men ; And if so , thy account must be notoriously false , and thou mayst be horridly ashamed to divulge it , as also of thy frequently saying , He was recorded out of the Vnity ; whenas Friends only recorded , That they have no Vnion with him in his so doing , as thou hast cited it , pag. 63. which is only relative to that particular Act ( viz. ) of his refusing to come twice to the Meeting , and not in such general Terms to exclude the Person Out of the Vnity in all respects : Therefore thou appearest fallacious in thy account . As concerning the Paper of our sence and advice , dated , London , the 27 th of the 3 d Moneth , 1675. ( consisting of divers particular weighty matters ) which thou makest thy principal Instance of our Apostacy and Violence upon our first Principles of Vnion , and about which thou hast so much scofft and derided at us ; I must tell thee that I know not one Person who subscribed tha● Paper , but have cause to stand by it , an● will stand by it , though unjustly and defamingly smote at , derided and contemned by thee . And why didst not publish all our said Paper ? Thou sayst , Thou hast taken enough to shew our Innovations and manifest Apostacies , pag. 50. as if all that Paper were matter of such Proof ; which is a most slanderous Insinuation ; for thou hast not proved one of these Instances of our said Paper either a Violation to our first Principles of Vnion , Antiscriptural , or Inconsistent with the Church-Discipline , Order and Government in the Primitive Times among true Christians , as thou pretendest , nor in the least tending to Apostacy or Antichristianism . Thou hast taken upon thee to stigmatize , brand and defame both our Testimony and the Subscribers , particularly William Penn , thou hast compared and rank't among such Vnchristian Societies , Violators , Innovators , Apostates , Pope's Council , Arbitrary Authority , &c. Thou art very loud in thy Charge , but mute in Proof , and wanting in Argument . And how dost thou herein agree with thy self , where in pag. 133. thou callest William Penn , This Noble Man , and in pag. 135. Dear W. P. and in pag. 144. thou prayst for William Penn in these words , ( viz. ) I pray God keep thee steddy , and with a continual Dependency upon the Divine Revelation , &c. when thou hast represented the same Person W. P. Antichristian , Apostate , Innovator , &c. as if thou shouldst pray thus for him , ( viz. ) Thou Antichristian Apostate , I pray God keep thee steddy . Such Absurdity doth thy Contradiction produce , who thus one while calumniatest and revilest , and another while flatterest and prayest for the same Person ; one while judging and condemning the said Person as Antichristian , Imposer , Innovator , &c. another while counting him Noble Man , A Dear Man , &c. Thou exclaimest against Religious Societies , Excommunicating , Condemning a Person as out of the Vnity , when it was but that They have no Vnity with him in his SO doing , ( i e. in his irregular Proceeding out of Unity and Order with them , in proposing his Intention of Marriage but Once to the Meeting , and that in the Womans absence ) whilst thou thy self art ( like an exalted Diotrephes , yea , like a Pope with thy printed Bull ) Excommunicating , Condemning , Deriding and Contemning the Servants of Christ by Name in Print , as William Penn , George Whitehead , Stephen Crisp , Alex. Parker , Thomas Salthouse , John Burnyeat , &c. for proceeding and giving their Christian Advice , Sence and Judgment , according to their Consciences and inward Perswasions , relating to good Order in the Church of Christ. Thus inconsistent art thou , conceited proud Scorner and false pretender to Liberty of Conscience , who hast given more black Characters , and made a worse ( to speak ad hominem ) Record even in Print against these and divers other faithful Servants of Christ , than only for a Meeting to Record in Manuscript their having No Vnion with a particular Person in his Irregular Proceeding in this or that particular act ; for thou hast recorded these before mentioned Servants of Christ by name as Antichristian , Imposers , Innovators , &c. and compared them to the Popes Council in Print , and that in thy Book intended for the Magistrates , as by thy Epistle appears , pag. 3. Thus inconsistent and contradictory to thy self art thou in thy pretended Plea for Liberty of Conscience , whilst thou art Defaming , Condemning and Excommunicating many of the Servants of Christ among us , for the exercise and testimony of their tender Consciences in their Christian Advice and Admonition , which is all one as to seek to stop their Mouthes from preaching , exhorting others , &c. And this is not all thy Inconsistency and Confusion , the fruit of thy Malice and Treachery ; but thou hast presented such a one as Henry North , Knight , and the Magistrates with such abominable Lyes and Abuses , as if ( like a malicious Informer and Incendiary ) the Devil and thou designed not only the perpetual Reproach of the People called Quakers , but an Aggravation of their Sufferings and Persecutions ; against whom the chief ground of thy Book also is a gross Slander and great Lye , ( viz. ) That their way of Compelling , and Antichristian way of proceeding to bring to and force an Vniformity , Epis. p. 4. And thus raging against our Friends in these terms , ( viz. ) These Tyrannical Proceedings have been used by our New Spiritual Lords , Epis. p. 6. with much more Infamy , Slander and Scorn cast upon us in thy Book , for which the hand of the Lord will be upon thee : Thy Envy and Wickedness is judged of the Lord ; take heed how thou persistest in it , lest he make thee an Example . In thy sixth Chapter thou art , according to thy wonted course of Malice and Scorn , inveighing against our Womens Meetings , falsly charging them with usurped Authority , unlimited Power and Rule , placed in their Meetings by G. F. and others ; which is a gross abuse and slander . Also thou art inveighing against presenting Intentions of Marriage before them by both the Persons , p. 118 , 119. And this is not all the Fruit of thy perverse opposition , but in the same Chapter , p. 123. after divers Citations , thou bringest a comparison or instance of eating Flesh or Fish , as being indifferent and free ; and then addest , that These with ALL other outward Works be Things Indifferent , and may be used , and also left . I must tell thee ( Francis ) that this Position makes void all Christian-Discipline , good Order & Church-Government , leaving all loose and uncertain : And we are sure thou hast here asserted corrupt Doctrine , tending to practical Ranterism it self ; for here thou makest no exception ; thy assertion is general , not only of eating of Flesh and Fish , but of ALL other outward works , that they be things Indifferent , that may be used , and also left : See now if this be not sordid Ranterism ; this loose , gain-saying Spirit leads into both , to thy own contradiction , where thou pretendest for Church-Discipline , Order and Government , as in thy Title page thou seemest to grant were in the Primitive times , ( i. e. among the Primitive Christians , as we understand . ) But what Discipline , Order or Government in the Church canst thou Conscientiously plead , and be consistent with thy Position ( viz. ) That all outward Works be things Indifferent , & c ? How contrary to the Apostles Doctrine also is this ? for all good Works , which God hath ordained we should walk in ; these are not indifferent to be used , and also left ; outward works of Righteousness , Justice , Goodness , Charity , &c. commanded of God , are not Indifferent to be used and also left : Solemn contracts and engagements in Marriage are not Indifferent : Persons may not break solemn Contracts , due and orderly Proceedings : Men may not leave their Wives when they please , as an indifferent thing . But this Libertine Spirit that gave out and printed the said Ranters assertion , in placing such Indifferency upon ALL outward works or things , as that they may be used , and also left , hath thereby cast off all Bonds , Limitations , outward Discipline , Order and Government of Truth , relating to Conversation . We have much more in reserve against thy Book , which at present I do forbear adding for brevity's sake , and refer the Reader to R. Sandiland's single Answer , Entituled , Righteous Judgment placed upon the Heads of malicious Opposers and persecuting Apostates , against thy malicious Book ; and also to Tho. Elwood's Antidote against the Infection of William Rogers 's Book , miscalled , The Christian-Quaker , &c. Your Envy , Confusions , perverse in-and-out ways and hard Speeches are judged by the Lord , and his Hand is against you therein ; and I question not but God will more signally determine the Controversie against that proud contentious Spirit of Envy , Scorn , and false Jealousie : And Truth lives , and shall live and reign over it all . CHAP. VIII . § . 1. Thomas Crisp being joyned with William Rogers as a busie Agent in Division , as also his abuse of George Whitehead , by part of an old Letter from B. F. The reason of their being linked together in this Treatise . B. F. his late Testimony on G. W.'s behalf against T. C. § . 2. Notice taken of a few Passages in Thomas Crisp's Pamphlets : The reason thereof particularly about Tythes : His unsound Proposition : His Injustice unto and abuse of John Crook in impertinently quoting his Authority in the case , contrary to John's Principle and Testimony § . 3. How dis-ingenious Tho. Crisp is in his Authorities and Citatio●s about Tythes ; And how like his Brother John Pennyman , against our plain Language . Of J. Pennyman's furious roaring Letter against G. F. &c. containing the like unjust Reflections with W. R. T. C. &c. about Impositions , Prescriptions , &c. The Spiritual Christian , who hath the Power and Form of Godliness , distinguished and vindicated , both from the Formal Christian and Loose Apostate , who deny both Power and Form. § . 4. The unsound Doctrine of Robert Rich espoused by T. C. tending to Ranterism . About Forms , Prescriptions , Impositions , &c. R. R. a false Accuser like the rest of these Apostates : His Authority made use of by T. C. and F. Bugg , invalid . J. Perrot's Spirit and Language appearing in these present Opposers . § . 5. About T. C's Marrying by a Priest , and his Wife 's condemning it : His rendring the holy Spirit contradictory to it self in the matter of Tythes : His Answer to John Field , dirty , scurrilous , and impertinent : His abuse of his Wife and Friends in the case , misrepresenting them in his Prejudice and Vncharitableness ; judging and defaming others , contrary to his own warning . He himself reprehended and warned . § . 6. His endeavouring to extenuate his Offence about Marrying by a Priest , & paying Tythes . His Instance and Allegation in the case , but slight covers . And he proved Irreligious and Fallacious in his preceeding and arguing contrary to the Profession and Testimony of a real Christian-Quaker . § . 7. His Judgment about Tythes , as it accords with W. R's , still unsound & loose , & they not excusable in the Declension and Apostacy . § . 8. His Reply to Stephen Crisp , disingenious and fallacious . A Catalogue of some of the notorious Falshoods and Slanders therein . His Reviling and foul Detractions against Stephen Crisp. § . 9. Concerning the Paper which W. R. and T. C. have published and printed in Edward Burroughs's Name , To the scattered of Israel , &c. Their implicit Credulity and Confidence therein , and abuse of Edward Burroughs , with Reasons given by a Certificate and Testimony , to shew it in most probability to be John Perrot's , and not E. Burroughs's Paper : All which is recommended to Serious Consideration . § . 1. WHereas Thomas Crisp hath of late time struck in with William Rogers and his party , as a busie Agent in Division , and as hot and violent in his abusive Language and Reflection , as the most of them , for want of better Argument and Reason , he is also gotten into the same kind of stile and strain with W. R. and F. B. against promoting Government , Orders , Customs , Forms , Prescriptions , &c. as in several of his late Pamphlets , called Testimonies . I find also that these Opposers have recourse to one anothers Writings , and quote each other , and thereby show their own Authorities for themselves in the Controversie , for want of better Proof , as W. R. cites F. B. in his seventh Part , from page 64 , to page 75. and F. B. quotes W. R. and Tho. Crisp's Babels Builders , in his 112 page of his said Book , De Christ. Lib. and Thomas Crisp in his fifth part Babels Builders , quotes something he calls Q. Vn. M. which I understand to be a pernicious Pamphlet of John Pennyman's , which F. Bugg has threatned us with in several Papers * so that these Opposers seem to be joyned together in one and the same Spirit of Division , Opposition and Separation , and therefore may well be linked together as Persons concerned in one and the same Interest ; and not only so , but I find a Paper in T. Crisp's third Edition , which he calls George Bishop's Testimony , against a Paper of Orders , which is the very same Paper that Jeffery Bullock ( some Years ago , cited against us , in his Pamphlet , stiled , Antichrist's Transformations , and which the said Jeffery Bullock did so publish in Print against G. Whitehead , J. Whitehead , T. Green , T. Briggs , A. Parker , J. Coule , R. Farnsworth , T. Loe , S. Crisp , J. Moon , J. Parkes , by Name , who are struck at for no other cause , but a Paper , wherein we gave our Christian sense and seasonable advice , which we see no cause to Repent of ; and therefore G. B's Paper cited by the said Jeffery Bullock and Thomas Crisp , in opposition to that of ours , proceeded from a mistaken Judgment and is , Uncharitable against us , as well as Erronious in divers parts of it † But the Author is gone , I shall say the less , and charitably believe God took him away in Mercy , and that if he had remained to this day , he would not have stood by these Gain-sayers , in the evil use they make of his Paper in Print against so many of the Servants of Christ. But I have not done with T. Crisp for his so often printing part of a Letter from B. F. to me , when he was under a Cloud and mistake in the Controversie and Division occasioned by J. Perrot , &c. against Friends for putting off their Hats in Prayer ; in which Letter I and some others are reflected upon , and charged , That if ever any separation be , it will be through mine , and some lording , rigid , driving Spirits , against which I have in humility appealed to the Lord , to plead my Innocency in the Consciences of all concerned , my labour having been and still is , for Love and Unity among God's People ; and I take it not only unkindly from T. C. but as his Injustice and an Abuse so often to bring forth that piece of a Letter in Print against me , which was before published and printed more fully by some malicious Adversaries , in their Pamphlet , stiled , Tyranny and Hypocrisie , printed in the year 1673. In answer to which , I desire T. C. and the rest of the party concerned would now accept and consider B. F's own late Testimony , seeing the Lord in mercy has reduced him to a better understanding and judgment , than he was in when he writ the said Letter . Benj. Furly's Testimony follows . WHereas I understand that sundry persons , to me unknown , have divers times formerly , and now again lately published in Print certain extracts of a Letter written by me , as I take it about sixteen years ago to G. W. keeping up and feeding thereby a Spirit of Contention and Strife . This is in brief to signifie , That what has hitherto been done of this nature , has been altogether without my order , consent or privity ; for my soul hates that Spirit of Prejudice , Enmity and Contention , by which some men ( though perhaps , poor men ! not knowing by what spirit influenc'd , what spirit they gratifie , and what spirit they grieve and wound in this their work ) so acted , led and driven . As for so many of them that are meerly under a mistake , I do from my heart pity them , and am touched with the sence of their Condition , as having laboured under the same snares . Wherefore my earnest desire for them is , That they may be made sensible of that which they seem so earnestly to contend for ; yea , even for them that are so tinctur'd and leaven'd with Prejudice , that they do wittingly and with some degree of Malice , foment Contention . I cannot but desire , if it be the will of God , that they may through Judgment come to know Repentance , and through Repentance receive Mercy and Remission in and by the Blood of Jesus Christ , to whom all such do doe despight . And as for those Papers so long since given forth by me , not discerning what spirit did then influence me ( for so it is , that the actions of men are many times influenced both by good and evil Spirits , though they perceive it not , how much soever the Notion of Spirits , ridiculed by the Atheistick Philosophasters and wild Wits of this age ) I did many years since recall them , and make it my request , that any that had them in their custody might make no further ill use of them ; and to have found the contrary since , has been no small grief to me , especially to see so often repeated these personal Reflections by me used against G.F. and G.W. whom I truly honour in the Lord for their works and labours of Love. However , I would not have any malicious Persons from hence take occasion to think , much less to say or represent , that I have hereby revoked , or do in the least intend to inervate any of the words in that or any other Paper , so far as they are assertive of a just and equal Liberty of Conscience . For I do firmly believe , That there is no Principle maintained amongst Mankind that stands upon f●●●er Foundations , that is more becoming the Rulers of this World in their respective Dominions , nor more agreeable to the Life and Spirit of Christianity , than is that of Liberty of Conscience . Neither let any man on the other hand think or say , That I do hereby in the least hinder the Church of Christ from judging , condemning and testifying against things and Persons by the Spirit of Christ , for preaching things which those persons erring from the spirit of Christ , may judge not only to be allowable as their Christian Liberty , but even look upon to be their very duty . For as the Principle of Liberty of Conscience is in it self most reasonable and christian , so is this latter of denying All Iudging upon any account most unreasonable , blind and foolish . And they that cannot see , that these two Principles of Liberty and Judgment , are not only consistent , but very harmonious with each other , are to be pitied for their weakness and half-sightedness ; of which perhaps , God giving life and ability , I may at another time say more — In the mean while I wish heartily , that all that profess and name the Name of Jesus , the Prince of Peace , would seek peace and ensue it . Benjamin Furly . Now Tho. Crisp and the rest concerned , see by these Lines how far B. F. hath distinguished the point in Controversie , and cleared himself upon a better understanding concerning the said Letter , and against the perverse use thou hast made of it in Print to reproach me withal . § . 2. And since thou hast causlesly aspersed me with it , and so far censoriously exposed me in Print , as thou hast done , when I sought no occasion against thee , nor designed Controversie with thee ; and seeing thou art grown so hardy and confident as to make thy self such a publick Agent and Advocate for W. R. and his Party in the Controversie , I have not yet done with thee , but am concerned further to take notice of a few Passages in thy Pamphlets , which I look upon as very corrupt and perverse , and contrary to our antient and constant Testimony , born among us on behalf of Christ. The first is in thy Pamphlet , stil'd , Several Testimonies , 3 d Edition , which is also printed in others of thy Pamphlets , in these words , viz. pag. 26. I fear you take more care for the strict Observation of your own Orders and Traditions than the Truth in the Heart ; for if any use not your Language , or observe not to do just as others , in Tythes or other CIVIL RIGHTS , which the Laws of our Land require , and ought to be observed , ( unless God by his Spirit in the Heart doth forbid , or any do really for Conscience sake refuse ) But if one cannot do so , must he therefore judge his Brother ? That may be required of one that may not be required of another ; for Growth or Measure may differ , Rom. 14. AND J. Crook saith , We read of — Cain and Abel , two men performing the same Action , attended with the same Formalities , &c. and yet the one accepted , and the other rejected . In like manner may two Persons be found in contrary Actions , Postures , Gestures , and yet both accepted of God ; for if I should lay a Bond upon my self therein , I transgress the liberty of the spirit , either as to time , constancy or place ; or if another should lay a Bond upon me , or put a Yoke about the Neck of the Disciples , this is no more justifiable than the former . To the first part , being thy words , I must tell thee , thy Proposition is unsound and inconsistent with our antient Testimony , as well as Contradictory in its self : Vnsound in that it bespeaks thou art not principl'd against the Payment of Tythes in this Gospel day , and hast not retain'd a true or certain Judgment against them in thy esteeming and accounting of them amongst Civil Right , but Rites in thy other Pamphlet , which ought to be observed ; and implying , that a Brother is not to be judg'd for observing ( or paying ) them . I am sure this is contrary to the Testimony born and received among us from the beginning . And to thy granting , that God by his Spirit in the Heart may forbid them , or that for Conscience sake some refuse them ; as if the Spirit of the Lord did allow one Brother to pay Tythes as a civil Right , and forbid another ; or that from a different Growth or Measure of Grace , one Brother may be required to refuse the Payment of Tythes , and another Brother not so required , and therefore not to be judged for the Payment of them , being both under the same Profession and Dispensation : Is not this Inconsistent & Babylonish , yea , and tending to apparent Ranterism , to render the Spirit and different Measures thereof so contrary and opposite in its requirings , in a matter so eminent & weighty as that of Tythes ? wherein our manifest Testimony hath been so positive , and the Sufferings of many so deep and heavy for not paying Tythes , and whereof the very first breaking forth of the Light and dawning of the Gospel Day did convince many Thousands , when their Eyes were first opened to see the Corruption of that Ministry which is upheld by Tythes and forced Maintenance ; therefore T. C. thou art gone from the Light that first convinced thee , in thus confusedly arguing for Tythes ; and thy Proposition is loose and fallacious , and there 's no such contradiction in the different Measures of Grace and Spirit received from God , as thou absurdly implyest . If ever thou knew'st or wast sensible either that Tythes were ended by Christ , or that the Ministry upheld by them is none of Christ's Ministry , thou couldst never suppose that any measure or degree of his Grace or Spirit would allow or lead any ( who have been really convinced of the Evil thereof ) in the payment of them , if thou wert not gone from the true sence and measure thereof in thy self ; for the different measures or degrees of Grace do not alter the Property of it ; and whatever it once manifests to be sin , and forbids as such , it always forbids , and allows none in the practice thereof ; and whoever are truly convinced by the Grace of God , and have their Minds turned to it , if they keep in it , and walk in its way and teaching , they are principled by it , and are a Law to themselves therein , against those things , ways and works which are corrupt or sinful , and cannot place a slight Indifferency where the Truth hath made a real Difference ; for what communion hath Light with Darkness , or Christ with Belial , or Truth with Error , or Sincerity with Hypocrisie , or Sobriety and Watchfulness with Ranterism and Looseness ? — Consider how and from whence thou art fallen , and Repent . To thy subsequent Allegation of John Crook's saying , I must tell thee , that I look upon thee to have dealt unjustly , disingeniously and injuriously by him , and very impertinently alledged his words in this case , for thy unwarrantable , confused & loose Proposition for the Observation of Tythes , as a civil Right or Rite . I doubt not but he is better principled , even from the time of his first receiving the Truth , than to grant or allow any such liberty to any Christian Brother for the observation ( or payment ) of Tythes , as thy words import ; and that thy Allegation of his words in this case , is contrary to his very Intention . I dare presume and appeal to his Conscience to give Judgment against thee in this case , whether the different or contrary actions , postures or gestures , relating to time , constancy or place , &c. mentioned by him , were intended with respect to Tythes , * the Payment or Non-payment of them . I dare say thou hast foully perverted his words and intention in this case ; for the different actions , postures and gestures , relating either to time or place , may relate to divers things only circumstantial and indifferent , as to God , and not to things substantial , wherein Truth 's Testimony has made a real Difference ; As I , or any other in Truth , may be in different postures and places praying to God or waiting upon him , in Closet , on our Beds , in Field , High-way , either kneeling , standing , sitting or walking , and yet truly led , moved and exercised by the holy Spirit , and accepted of God , † which I cannot say in relation to the Payment of Tythes in this Gospel day , no more than in Sacrifice and burnt Offerings , since Christ hath put an end thereto . Those things offered by Cain and Abel as the fruit of the Ground and firstlings of the Flock , were things in themselves lawful , and allowed in their day and time , and were also according to the Law of Moses , being Types under the old covenant . But this can be no pertinent Instance , as alledged by thee ( Thomas ) in the case of Tythes , to observe ( or pay ) them in this Gospel day , and as now in Controversie ; since both Tythes and Offerings were ended by Christ in his Death ; nor is there any parrallel in the case , unless thou couldst prove that the Spirit of Christ doth move Believers in this Gospel day , both to the Payment of Tythes and the Non-payment ( or refusal ) of them , which I dare say , thou canst not prove . 'T is not to be supposed that what Christ has abolish'd in the old Covenant he will enjoyn or command in the new ; the Spirit of Christ is not contradictory to it self , nor are Gods substantial Commands contrary one to another , especially under one and the same dispensation and state . § . 3. Besides thy abuse and injury against John Crook , and Impertinency in this case , I cannot but take notice how dis●ingenuous , cover'd and fallacious thou art , in the management of thy loose design , in reference to the Personal Authorities thou bringest , particularly in thy citing part of John Wilkinson and John Story 's Paper concerning Womens Meetings , &c. in two of thy Pamphlets ( viz. ) thy second and third Edition ; in the 24th pag. of the last thou sayst , These foregoing Testimonies are not transcribed at large , but abridged for brevities sake , but the SENSE AND SVBSTANCE OF THE WHOLE included . But Thomas , I must tell thee , this is a down-right Untruth ; the Sense and Substance of the Whole of that very Paper of J. W. and J. S. is not included in thy citation , although thou hast confessed their Testimony to be weighty Truths , and hast cited more passages than that concerning Womens Meetings ; for thou hast left out these Words of their Testimony , ( viz. ) As to Tythes , we can in truth say , 't was never so much as in our Hearts to strengthen any in the Payment thereof , nor yet to weaken the Faith of any , having a Testimony in our Hearts that Tythes , as at this day paid , are ANTICHRISTIAN . ( Thus far they . ) How now Thomas ? Why didst thou leave these Words out of thy Citation ? Was here nothing of the sense nor substance of their Testimony ? or wast thou not conscious to thy self , that their Position here against the payment of Tythes , and thy Proposition aforesaid for the observation of Tythes , as a civil Right or Rite , &c. were inconsistent and contradictory ? their words are positive against them , as Antichristian , but thine are partly for them , and but doubtfully against them , that is [ If the Spirit of the Lord in the Heart forbid the payment of them ] or if the different measure of Grace require one Brother not to pay them , and allow ( or be silent at ) another Brother's paying them . Thus Thomas thou appearest in Confusion a BABEL-BUILDER . And what is our Language thou reflects upon ? Is it the plain Language of Thee and Thou to a single Person ? And what are those Orders thou complainest of , and those Customs , Forms and Prescriptions ? Hast not thou appeared like thy Brother John Pennyman , in thy empty and fruitless opposition ? only he is a little more plain in his furious Roaring Letter to G. F. dated the 27th of the 3d Moneth , called May , 1680. printed among his other Letters to divers Friends , he furiously exclaims and roars out against us in these Expressions ( viz. ) Away with your long Prayers , and long Preachings , for they are an abomination ; away with your Pride and Arrogance , sitting as Judges and Lords over your Brethrens Consciences — Away with your set Form of Words of THEE and THOV , calling it the pure Language — O ye Blind and Ignorant ! how can you escape the Condemnation of the Just and Righteous One ; who have set up Shadows instead of Substance , and Form instead of Power ? — Builders of Babel , or Babylonish Builders — All your Buildings , your Inventions , Imaginations and Conceivings about your Forms , your proud self-conceited Modes , your Impositions , your Prescriptions , Laws and comely Orders ( as you in your fallen Wisdom call them ) must all be thrown down , laid waste , and become a By-word or Proverb of Reproach * to the very Heathen , &c. ( Thus far John Pennyman . ) These Words are cited to show how far you Backsliders and Opposers resemble one another in Stile and Language against us , crying out against Impositions , Forms , Prescriptions , Laws , &c. but show no Unjust nor Unrighteous Law , Form , Order or Prescription practised among us ; and therefore in your Madness and Fury are but beating the Air , and unjustly and falsly accusing us with Impositions , lording over our Brethrens Consciences : And John Pennyman he is for crying out , Away with your set form of Words of THEE and THOV ; he is offended at the Form of sound Words ; his Backsliding , Apostacy and vain Imaginations have been these many Years openly manifest , and time will further discover him to be a false Prophet against us : The Lord has brought us into that Form and Order , which neither Apostates , fallen Spirits , nor the Father of Lyes shall ever be able to throw down or lay waste . We direct People to the Light and Power of Christ within , to guide them both in the Life and Form of Godliness , Form of sound Words , and to obey from the Heart the Form of Doctrine received from Christ , and therefore we impose no blind Obedience , nor dark Formality upon any , but desire that all may come to be living Christians in Spirit , Life , Power and Holiness of Conversation , that their Conversations may be as becometh the Gospel of Christ ; but you Backsliders are of disobedient and loose Spirits , else you would not rage , roar and foam out your own Shame as you do against the Servants of Christ , or that Form and Order which we are sure he has brought us into , and wherein we are Conscientiously concerned to follow our Lord Jesus Christ in Humility ; and herein we can distinguish between formal Christians and living Christians , and would have none to enter into either extream of Formality without Life and Power , or under pretence of Life and Power to deny or oppose all Form and Order ; for there may be a formal pretended Christian without Life and Power , but no real living Christian in Power without true Form ; And this distinction we had from the beginning , and therefore alwayes believed that the true Power would not lead into any false or wrong Form , nor into any Disorder or Confusion , knowing that our God is the God of Order , and not of Confusion ; he is the God of Love , Peace and Union , and not of discord or strife . § . 4. And Thomas Crisp hadst thou kept to that which first Convinced thee , and raised up a love in thee to Truth , and the People of God called Quakers , thou wouldst not have espoused such unsound Doctrine as this of R. R. printed and published in thy Pamphlets among thy pretended weighty Truths , nor reckoned it among sound Doctrines , as thou hast done even in thy third Edition , p. 22. where after he hath confessed in these words ( viz. ) I know that the Lord hath his People amongst them ( meaning those called Quakers ) as in All Forms , and such as love and fear the Lord , doing the thing which is just and right . [ The words which I chiefly take notice of , are these of his which follow , viz. ] And such are accepted with me as bone of my bone , and as my Brother Benjamin that came of the free-woman , and are in that freedom fitted to act in ALL FORMS , † as the Lord their Light shall lead them , that they may replenish the Earth . This Doctrine or Proposition I look upon to be very unsound , and tending to plain Ranterism , making no distinction in Forms , but including ALL FORMS , without Distinction , under the leading of the Light of the Lord : Which also is an absurd begging of the Question ; for his Light doth neither lead nor fit the Children of the free-woman to act in All Forms † of Professions , but in its own form or way most proper and peculiar to it self , as the Form of Godliness is to the Power of God and Godliness , for granting the Lord may have a People that mean well under other Forms , as he has other Sheep that are not of this Fold : Howbeit , many that mean well are clouded and mistaken , under wrong Forms , empty Shews , Ceremonies and Circumstances , only of mens inventions and imposing , which the Light of the Lord guides them not into , being but humane Traditions and Impositions of men , neither proper nor suitable to divine Worship , or to a true spiritual Christian state ; and therefore it is not the freedom of the Children of the Free-Woman to act in ALL or any such Forms , nor will the Light of the Lord lead them therein ; nor may R. R's words be applied to the Children of New Jerusalem , who under the dispensation and order of the new Covenant , nor are they properly applicable to them , where he saith , Why may not God enjoyn that as an Ordinance to day , and give his Power to it also , which to Morrow he will lay aside as useless , and by his withdrawing his Power from it , leave it no better than an Idol ? as in pag. 19 , 20. of thy 3d Edition . This cannot be truly said of the Ordinances of the new Covenant , which are not to be compared to the Shadows under the old ; and therefore these his Expressions , as applied to this Dispensation which we are under ( which is that of the Gospel and new Covenant ) do tend to lead into Uncertainty , Instability , Looseness and Ranterism . Good Works are ordained of God , the practice of pure Religion he enjoyns us to walk it ▪ and he will not forsake the Children of the Free-Woman , who therein serve him in his free Spirit . This R. R. whose pretended Testimony thou hast espoused , his exclaiming , accusing and smiting unjustly , also like the rest of you about Imposing upon Brethrens Consciences , Prescriptions , Impositions , and falsly accusing Friends with the Spirit of Dominion and Rule over the Conscience : Telling of the Yoke of your Prescriptions , your carnal and literal Impositions : G. F 's comely Order ; G. F. and his Tribe of Proselites ; creating a Dominion over your Brethren , and the movings of God in them , and claiming a power to judge of all Differences , prescribing Rules and Orders , &c. falsly comparing Friends with the Pope himself , and accusing them with swelling Soveraignity over the Minds and Consciences of men , heavily imposing upon others in such Circumstances and Indifferences wherein the Kingdom of God doth not consist , &c. With many more Falshoods and unjust Reflections , and Abuses , * without innumerating or giving particular Instances of those Impositions , Rules & Orders complained of , only bids us witness the Hat ; which I take to be because we could not own J. Perrot and his party in their keeping on their Hats in publick Prayer : R. Rich being one of his Party , a Disciple and Agent in his Cause , confounded in his Judgment with a Spirit ( and Notions ) of Ranterism , though sometimes he confessed to the Power of God among Friends , but too lofty in his Spirit ; he now seems to be adopted by you in his opposition ( in this his Paper which thou hast printed for a weighty and sound Testimony , I mean , Robert Rich's , whom I take to be thy Author ) Why didst not set his Name , but R. R ? which may stand for another Name , as Richard Richardson ; but we are sure he is better principled than to write such Airy , Loose , Ranting stuff . One reason that makes me take it to be R. Rich's Paper that thou hast espoused , 't is so much in his floating , reflecting , accusing , lavish and conceited Stile ; and also that thy Brother Francis Bugg makes use of his Authority in his Book De Christ. Lib. p. 170. in these words ( viz. ) I begin to see the truth of Robert Rich 's words in a Letter from Barbadoes , to his Friends , Abstracts , &c. pag. 20. viz. I can assure you , that who meddle with the Quakers , had need to be fenced within and without with the whole Armour of God , Truth and love to Righteousness , David 's Sling and Stone , &c. These Passages are mentioned that it may the more obviously appear how plainly you resemble one another , and tread the same Track , in the Stile and Terms of your Opposition , and that 't is no new Controversie in the Substance ; 't is but only John Perrot's Spirit of Division risen with some other Circumstances and Pretences , in a more Rough , Lofty , Contemning , Hectoring and Huffing Party , daring and scornful , who have not that seeming show of Humility , Lamb-likeness and Outside Demureness , that John Perrot had , * the tendency and end of whose work , time will manifest more directly to center in RANTERISM , as it now tends to FLESHLY LIBERTY , casting off the Yoke of Christ , and causing the offence of his Cross to cease . § . 5. And now Thomas I am not willing at present to spend much farther time with thee , thou having been so much answered by R. Richardson and J. F. only I would show thee a little further , how unfairly and disingenuously thou dealest with John Field in thy 5th part of thy Babels , &c. First , I take notice of the account J. Field gives in the 3d page of his Book , entituled , Thomas Crisp's Envy detected , about thy Doctrine , and then of what thou sayst in relation to the same ; and that which thou scornfully callest J. F's Bull of Excommunication against thee , his account is this , viz. John Field signifieth , That Friends have " no Vnity with Tho. Crisp nor his Doctrine , which is as followeth , The 8th day of the 9th Month , 1681. Thomas Crisp said , That he had lately paid Tythes , and that the Spirit of God did or might allow him to pay Tythes , or Marry by a Priest. And that by the same Spirit of God another might be required not to pay Tythes , or not do the same Things . This Thomas Crisp spake the day and year abovesaid , and consented to have it writ and printed , and took a copy of the aforesaid words . Witness , John Field , jun. Oh Thomas ! How hast thou lost true tenderness and the sence of Truth ? How art thou backsliden , and gone from that which first convinced thee of the way of the Lord and his holy Truth , which is but one ? And how variable dost thou render his Spirit , and contradictory to it self in these great concerns of Tythes and Marriage ? Is this like the Testimony of the Christian-Quaker , as thou and thy Brother W. R. and his party would be rendred ? Is it not more like exact Ranterism ? Let all tender Hearts and sincere Souls in the Light judge . But what sayest thou to J. F's Question , Why did thy Wife condemn it ? meaning your marrying by a Priest : To this thou most unrighteously and scornfully answerest in these Words , ( viz. ) But may not those that pretend to sell Pardons , and pray Souls out of Purgatory ( your Brethren ) say , that if their Prayers and Pardons be not effectual , why have and do so many give so much Money for them ? If a Woman gives all she hath to have her Husband out of Purgatory , an effectual Proof of the worth of the Pope's Pardon . Thomas , Thy Answer herein is dirty and scurrilous , & thy comparison with the Pope , and those that falsly pretend to pray Souls out of Purgatory , most unjust and slanderous : Be ashamed of such scribling and abusive dirty Work , and falsly calling such our Brethren : Be ashamed also of thus unnaturally exposing thy own Wife to an unjust censure in this comparison ( viz. ) As to a Woman that gives all she hath to have her Husband out of Purgatory : Oh sordid and bruitish ! As also in thy following Words , and foul Reflection upon thy Wife ( viz. ) It is like SHEE , as too many more have , gave too much credit to what some of G. F's CHEATS said : And she is not the first that hath been deceived by you , and perhaps some among you , that have prated others out of their Money , might prate her , unto the writing and giving you that Paper you pretend to . Thus far thou in the 9th page of thy 5th part of thy Babel . O Thomas ! be ashamed of thus abusing thy Wife and others , ( our Friends ) with thy Railery in Print , as if she were cheated or deceived into the giving forth the said Paper in judgment against your marrying with the Priest ; I am satisfied thou hast most foully wronged her , as well as abused her Friends herein ; for I am perswaded that the Lord made her sensible you had done amiss in so marrying , that she was convinced in her Conscience of the Evil of it , and of your wrong proceeding therein by the Light of Truth , before she gave out the said Paper ; and that therefore thou hast not only abused and unjustly exposed thy Wife , thy near relation in Print , but also that thou hast abused the Truth , and the real Conviction thereof in her : I dare appeal to the witness of God in her Conscience against thy sordid abuse of her and Friends in this matter . I find thou art a shallow impertinent Scribler and Railer , and uncharitably Censorious and Reviling in much of thy Work ; thou hast an absurd and dirty stile of writing , if it be thy own , however it is patronized by thee . Remember from whence thou art fallen , and Repent of thy hard Speeches , Prejudice and Uncharitableness against Gods People , his Heritage . Thou hast abused the Servants of Christ , have a care thy dayes be not shortned in Darkness and Sorrow . I am sorry for thee . Thou canst advise and instruct others to Love and Gentleness , and pretendest to shew the necessity of bearing with , and not judging one another about such things , wherein they differ in Opinion or Practice in some things , viz. outward and circumstantial matters of Religion ; for that thou sayest , We may belong to one Shepherd , although not all in one Fold ; and confessest , That Love is part of the Seal in the Forehead of the Lamb's followers ; and so also Hatred , Strife , &c. the mark of the Beast , as in thy Introduction to thy third Edition : As also page 13. thou givest Friends this warning , To forbear judging any man any more , upon any pretence whatsoever , as in the Paper thou hast cited , and falsly callest E. B's Vision . Yet contrariwise thou art severely judging and contemning us on some Pretence ; thou appearest in Hatred and Strife in the most of thy controvertial Pamphlets . May we belong to one Shepherd , although not all in the Fold as yet ? Why then art thou and W. R. and F. Bugg , and John Pennyman , so severe in Judging , Censuring , Reviling and Reproaching many among us , whom we know to be the Servants of Christ ? And thou telling of G. F's Cheats , rendring thy Wife as one cheated and deceived by our Friends : Oh sordid and base Confusion , and Babylonish stuff ! Seriously recollect thy self , and give over thy false and fruitless Attempts , Impertinencies , and confused Scribling ; for the Day is dawned and broken forth , that has made a discovery of the miserable Apostacy and Darkness , which you contentious & quarrelsom Opposers are fallen into . Oh! come down , come down , and seek Repentance , and be humbled under the mighty Hand of God : May the Lord in Mercy give thee an Heart thereto , my Soul charitably wisheth it for thee , &c. § . 6. In thy Fourth Part , page 19. thou art endeavouring to extenuate the offence on thy part on thy Principle , that one may marry by the Priest , and pay Tythes , and yet be a Christian ; Thou shouldst have added , [ One of the darker sort of Christians . ] But to excuse the matter on thy part , Thy Wife was not then one called a Quaker , * And thou couldst not satisfie her , so that thou CONDESCENDED to take thy Wife in the presence of a Priest , and acquainted him , that thou didst it not on any account of Religion , but to answer the LAW ; and sayest , who ( i. e. the Priest ) very Christian-like condescended to thee , so as not to say or do , or require thee to do or say any thing thou shouldst be dissatisfied with , &c. And you did before him declare you took each other , &c. nor was there half the Ceremony or Formality that is now practised according to G. F 's Form , &c. Oh Thomas ! These slight Covers , and Linsey-Woolsey Garments will not hide thy Disobedience , nor excuse thee from acting contrary to thy Conviction and Conscience . It appears thou wast marryed by a Priest [ but to mince it , 't was in the presence of a Priest ] though not in all Formalities ; and this was thy CONDESCENTION : Was it so ? Then thou wast come to a higher sight and state than to be marryed by a Priest. May it not be said further , how could it be consistent with thy Principle and Profession as a real Christian-Quaker or Conscientious Dissenter , to be so Marryed ? Mince it as much as thou canst , 't will not hold together . But thou didst it not on any account of Religion , &c. No! how couldst thou exclude that weighty concern of Marriage out of Religion ? How Irreligious wast thou then in it ? Is there not as much need to keep unspotted of the Word in the great concern of Marriage , as in any other concern in this Life ? How couldst thou then lay Religion aside in this weighty concern ? Is it not manifest Ranterism for a person to make so slight of Religion , as at his will and pleasure to lay it aside , and that under pretence of condescending in matters of greatest Moment here wherein all truly enlightned and clear sighted Christians have most need to be Religiously exemplary , and faithful in their Testimony , according to their Consciences ? But to thy Question ; May not one Marry by the Priest , or pay Tythes , and yet be a Christian ? For thy Principle , That he may , ( in thy 5th part , p. 14. ) thou givest us this Instance , viz. I find George Keith very Christian like say , I do not doubt but the Lord had , and I believe he now hath many that are precious to him , and that belong to the Catholick-Church , even as I believe the Lord hath many such among Episcopalians , Papists , &c. Also , I do acknowledge the Lord hath among the Presbyterians some who belong to the true Church . Surely then ( sayst thou ) these must be Christians , and did and do Marry by or with a Priest , and pay Tythes . Now ( Thomas ) this Instance , and thy Inference upon it , are the most cunningly alledged of any thing I find in thy writings , and yet they will not do , they will not serve thy turn ; for granting some among all these to whom the Lord hath regard , and who in some sence may belong to his Church , it is with respect to their Sincerity towards God , and their fear of him , Conscientiousness springing from his own Seed in them ; and not with respect to their Formalities , cloud of humane Traditions and Inventions , which thy are led into by their Priests , as Marrying by Priests , paying Tythes , &c. Therefore , however the Lord in Mercy hath a regard to them for the sake of the good in them , yet they are but dim-sighted , and of the darker sort of Christians , who see not beyond those humane Impositions and Traditions , as paying Tythes and Marrying by a Priest , &c. And for thee to excuse thy self therein , who professest a higher state and degree of Illumination ( no doubt ) as no less than that of a Christian-Quaker , thou mightst as well argue , that there are some of the better and more sincere sort of Papists that bow to Images , and use many Superstitions , which their Priests have misled them into , and to whom God shews Mercy in saving their Souls at length ; therefore thou or any Christian-Quaker may bow to Images , observe Popish Ceremonies , &c. Or thus , There are many of the sincerer sort of Episcopal People that have their Children sprinkled by a Priest , and signed with the Sign of the Cross , that hear Common-Prayer , conform , and do all Conscientiously , and are sincere to God in their Way ; so that in Charity we may conclude , that their Souls find Mercy with God at length . And what follows ? Therefore Thomas Crisp as a Christian-Quaker , and all other Conscientious Dissenters , both Anabaptists and others , may carry their Children to be Sprinkled by a Priest , have them signed with the Sign of the Cross , hear Common-Prayer , conform , &c. and yet be good Christians , precious to God , while thus inconsistent with their own Consciences , dissenting Principles and Profession . Thus inconsistently thou mightst as well argue for the Christian-Quakers paying Tythes and Marrying by a Priest , &c. But I must deny the consequence : Thou ( as a Quaker doubtless ) hast known better things , and that as to the knowledge of Truth and degree of divine Illumination . There is no just Comparison between a real Christian Quaker and the best sort of Papists and Episcopalians . Therefore thy pleading in thy 5th part of Babels , p. 19 , 20. for charity and forbearance to be allowed them who think it as much their duty to pay Tythes , as we do think it a sin ( and to those who do Marry by a Priest , and pay Tythes , being of different Perswasion from us . ) Granting such there are , who see no further , and are to be pitied ; 't is no argument for any that are of our contrary Perswasion to take liberty to pay Tythes and Marry by a Priest ; for their sin is greater than the other . Oh Friend ! thy Disobedience , Declension and Apostacy from those Discoveries the true Light has made , will not be excusable by all thy slight Allegations in the sight of the All-seeing and Heart-searching God. § . 7. But — T. C 's Judgment about Tythes accords with what is in the third part of the Christian-Quaker , &c. by W. R. Christianly and largely treated on ( quoth he ) in his fourth part , p. 19. And what is W. R 's Judgment or Doctrine in that case ? Is it not for freely paying Tythes to the National Ministry , i. e. not as by Constraint ; yea , if any Person will freely of himself give a tenth part of his Estate or Encrease thereof to ANY VSE WHATSOEVER , having no regard to any humane Institution , or claim by any pretended divine Law , &c. as his words are , 7th part , p. 52. Compare his Objection and Answer in that case , in his 2d part , Christian-Quaker , p. 43. and the Apology he makes for it in his 7th part , p. 52 , 53. together with our fore-going Replyes , then it will appear how loose and apostatized thy Judgment is from the ancient Principle and Christian Testimony of the truly Christian-Quakers , whose Principle never allowed paying Tythes freely , ( or otherwise ) to the National Ministry , or to any use whatsoever . Therefore how little excusable is your Declension , Apostacy , and loose Doctrine in that case , who have seen and known better things from a farther degree of Illumination , than either the best sort of Papists or Episcopalians have as yet received ? Wherefore you , in sinning against Knowledge , are more condemnable in those things , than they in their Ignorance , blind Zeal , or Dim-sightedness . So that 't is high time for thee to bethink thy self better , and Repent . § . 8. I could say much to thy Reply thou hast given to Stephen Crisp , in thy Babels , 4th part , to evince how disingenuous , fallacious and abusive it is ; but I find little necessity upon me therein , considering what little weight it is of , and how that Stephen Crisp , the Person immediately concerned , did not look upon himself so deeply concerned , as to think it worth the while to spend much time about , or take much notice of : Only I must tell thee , thou hast abused both him , and those of us who gave our Testimony , and plainly showed our dislike against the Paper and Subscription from Barbadoes , which was not * ONLY a dislike of the Wording it , ( as thou falsly sayest ) but of both matter and subscription : And therefore thy saying , * There is no denial or disowning the Principle of giving up all ( i. e. Spiritual and Temporal ) to G. F 's Mens and Womens Meetings ( as thou scornfully accusest us , p. 2 , 3. ) This is a gross Untruth and foul Perversion , and our Consciences bear us witness to the contrary , that we do dislike and disown any such Principle and Doctrine : Thou hast mis-stated the case against us herein . Secondly , As also thy Objection is false , That we were more afraid of the Publication , than ashamed of the Matter , p. 6.9 . Seeing we so plainly manifested our Dislike of the matter , in our Letter to those of Barbadoes concerned . Thirdly , As also a scornful and two-fold Slander it is , That we endeavour to compel all to worship our Image ( as thy false term is ) of G. F 's Orders , p. 7. We deny both by terms and matter herein . Fourthly , And likewise a gross Slander and Abuse it is , That G. F. and his Party sharply reprove others , who cannot against their Consciences give up as the Barbadoes Church have done , and for not bowing to our Image , G. F 's Laws , p. 8. What a scornful abominable Lye is this ! Fifthly , Also these are notorious Falshoods ; That we will drive them that will not follow us , contrary , or before the Spirit of the Lord lead them into our Ceremonies , else they must be Sons of Perdition , and all black Characters we can find to vilifie them , pag. 10. These are foul and false Accusations . Sixthly , Again , That thou hast to thy understanding endeavoured the Advance and Honour of that Truth we profess , ( i. e. the Light in the Conscience ) p. 11. This is an untruth ; thy Vilifying and Abusing ( and Railery against ) the Servants of Christ ; who truly own and profess the Light for their guide , proves the contrary . Seventhly , That we are zealous for Forms , more than the Power , p. 11. Is also a false Accusation and Slander . Eighthly , That Stephen Crisp is an Engine of Satan , p. 12. And A Forger , p. 2. And A bold-faced Lyar , p. 4. appear slanderous Abuses and foul Detractions , also expresly contrary to thy own warning thou hast given forth in E. B's Name , for All Friends to forbear Judging any man upon any pretence whatsoever . However , Stephen Crisp is known to be a man Conscientious towards God , a man more Righteous than thy self , and I suppose better qualified , both as a Man , and a Christian , than ever thou wast ; and thy envious Detractions cannot lessen his Reputation , where he is well known . For the rest of thy Abuses , Perversions , foul Detractions , Railery , and bitter angry Stuff , ( in thy Pamphlets ) which are not here recited , I leave thee to the Righteous Judge of all to reckon with and judge thee , as I doubt not but in due time he will. § . 9. I hereby give the Reader further notice about that Paper before-mentioned , which William Rogers and thy self have printed and published in your Books in Edward Burroughs's Name , as his Testimony , Vision , &c. concerning The scattered of Israel , the Shepherd and his Dogs , and Sheep , &c. and which in thy third Edition thou recommendest , To be considered by all , more especially by us called Quakers , among whom ( thou sayest ) 't is proved to be a true Vision , and not a Dream of E. B 's making : Shewing still thy confident Credulity , that 't is really Edward Burroughs's Paper . I am still the more confirmed that 't is none of E. B's , but John Perrots ; and that William Rogers and his party ( who encouraged the Publication thereof ) together with thy self , have been too credulous and confident , both in receiving the said Paper upon trust , and imposing it on others as Edward Burroughs's , and that therein you appear both implicit in your Faith , and meer Imposers , as well as Abusers of E. B. and his faithful Testimony , unless you can shew more manifest Testimony and valid Reason that the said Paper was E. B's , than we can show to the contrary that it was John Perrot's . It shall not serve W. R's turn to slight a Negative Testimony herein , unless he and his party can prove their Affirmative , that E. Burroughs was the Author of the said Paper , and that with more manifest Testimony and probable Reason than we have here to show to the contrary , namely , that 't was John Perrot's : For besides the Unsoundness of the said Paper in Matter and Manner , before hinted , as one Reason that 't was not E. B's ; observe the following Certificates and Testimonies from Bristol , viz. I Having read and perused the Paper of The scattered of Israel , set down in W. R's Book , stiled , The Christian-Quaker , to which W. R. affixeth and subscribeth the Name of Edward Burroughs , as the Author and Giver forth of the same . I remembring that I had read a Paper of the like Import among the Papers of John Batho , when living , did search into them after his decease , and among the Letters of John Perrot , which John Batho choicely kept and transcribed with his own Hand , I found the same Paper above mentioned , without any substantial variation of matter , with John Perrot's Name subscribed at length , which if duely weighed , and compared with the Writings and Stile of E. B. and J. P. seems , according to my best discerning , much more likely to be the Stile of John Perrot , than of Edward Burroughs . Further , I am well assured that the Hand-writing of that Paper is John Batho's , which I have reason to know , by the many Years Co-habitation and intimate Acquaintance that I had with him and his Hand-writing , who hath often expressed to me a more than ordinary respect to , and admiration that he had of John Perrot his Ministry and Writings , which occasioned his Diligence and Care in transcribing his Epistles and Writings , of which he left a large Parcel behind him at his decease . This I am a Witness of , and do give this Testimony , in order to the undeceiving of the Simple in that particular , and the vindicating of that worthy Friend E. B. from W. R's Mis-representations in this matter . Bristol , the 2d of the 10th Moneth , 1682. Laurence Steel . WE , whose Names are hereunto subscribed , have also perused and compared the above-mentioned Paper , touching The scattered of Israel , &c. with that William Rogers recites in his Book , entituled , The Christian-Quaker , wherein he assigns Edward Burroughs to be the Author thereof ; And upon strict Examination , we find it to be the same in Substance , differing only here and there in some Words , which alter not the sence , and appears to be only by the Writers mistake on one hand or other . We have also compared the said Paper with John Batho's Books of Accounts , and divers other Papers and Epistles transcribed under his own Hand , and do most apparently discern that the above-said Paper is the same Character with them , and the same Hand-writings . We also further testifie , that at the end of the said Paper , John Per●ots Name , as Author thereof ( and not Edward Burroughs ) is subscribed at length by the same Hand : And if William Rogers , or any else , desire a sight of the said Paper , Epistles and Books , we do freely offer our selves ready to shew it them . Witness our Hands , Charles Harford , Richard Snead , Richard Vickris . Dated in Bristol , this 2d of the 10th Moneth , 1682. SErious Reader , please to take notice , that since the writing of the second Section of the eighth Chapter , containing a Charge against T. C. for his dealing unjustly and injuriously by John Crook in the aforesaid citation , which I sent him a true Copy of about Tythes , &c. as stated by T. C. I received John Crook's own Answer by Letter , dated , 6th of the 10th Moneth , 1682. plainly importing his dislike , and Testimony against such publication of his Name and Citation , contrary to his Principle and Practice , signifying , That if T. C. hath done him right in the Quotation , he is sure he hath wronged him in the Intention , by making his Words speak any thing at all touching Tythes : And that his Paper , which is only in Manuscript , ( near twenty Years since , writ on another occasion ) Cannot with any ingenuity be referred to the Payment , or Non-payment of Tythes : And that by a Book writ by him , and Printed 1659. against Tythes , together with his own clearness from the payment thereof , it is evident He cannot reasonably be supposed to favour the Payment of them . Thus far J. Crook hath ingenuously and plainly intimated and given his judgment , which ( compared with my Exception before ) doth confirm it against T. C. his disingenuous and injurious Citation , reflecting on J. C. and his Testimony , who concludes his Letter & Account in these Words to me , ( viz. ) What I have said , may satisfie those that are willing to be informed aright ; and for others , that will not be contented , except their Humour of Conceitedness be gratified , they need not greater Judgment here , than to be their own Tormentors , and hereafter to be left to the Judgment of the great Day , when every man shall receive a Reward according to his Deeds . Thy Brother in the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus , John Crook . CHAP. IX . § . 1. Why notice is taken of Jeffery Bullock , in this Treatise ; some Reasons given . § . 2. His charge of mens Inventions , false Doctrines . Of the Church of Rome , &c. Visible Church-Government , that 's altogether Antichristian , testified against . § . 3 Christ's Government in his Church , how Invisible and Visible , vindicated from Jeffery Bullocks opposition to Elders , Mens Meetings and Womens Meetings , &c. § . 4. Our Reverence to God in our Prayers , and reverent Deportment and Conscientiousness therein , both in uncovering our Heads , Kneeling , &c. vindicated from his false Objections . § . 5. His fallacious dealing with our Doctrine about the Seed of God in man : The matter truly stated against his Falshood . § . 6. Of his disowning the arising of the Seed of God in man. § . 7. Our preaching Salvation and Justification by the Man Christ , the Son of God , and his being our Way to the Father , questioned by J. Bullock ; here vindicated . § . 8. His Ignorance of the innocent Birth or Babe Immortal ; and of Gods appearance and speaking by his Son , and his opposing the inward feeling of Life . His slanderous repetition against us about God being held in Bondage , testified against , and the matter opened , as what it is that suffers , and what is in Bondage in man. His denying Christ to be the only Way to the Father again ; with a Collection of his Erronious and Atheistical Doctrines . § . 9. His opposing Justification , Salvation and Condemnation by that Christ that suffered , proved Erronious , and against his Mediatorship , and Scripture-Testimony . J. B. confounded about two Christs , &c. § . 10. His opposing Christ's coming of David , &c. And his asserting that his Soul dyed , that he internally dyed . And his holding the Mortality of the Soul of man , proved Erronious and Atheistical , and abundantly contradicted by himself and his Preaching . § . 11. His asserting the Scriptures to be the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge , whimsical and erronious ; and disowning our Friends Book , Letter and Testimony , and yet confessing them to be in the Letter of the Scriptures , contradictory to himself and his Books against us . § . 12. His practical contradiction in separating himself from others , and preaching in our Friends Meeting at Sudbury . His erronious Denyings and Doctrines sumed up , and denyed by the true Christian-Quakers . The Conclusion , by way of Solemn Appeal and Supplication to God. § . 1. COncerning Jeffery Bullock's four Pamphlets , slanderously charging us with Antichristian Doctrines , and an Antichristian Government , or a visible Church-Government that 's altogether Antichristian , as in his One Blow , pag. 9. &c. Some may ask me , Why I take notice of such confused , muddled , blind , dark and mad Stuff , as his appears to be ? To which I Answer : First , Because neither the Truth , nor us , as a Religious People and Christian Society , may lie under any Dis-repute , Blemish or Derision thereof , in the Eyes of those that know not , nor rightly understand the Christian Doctrine , Discipline , Church-Government , and wholsom Order among us , seeing the said J. B. has been for many Years conversant among the People called Quakers , and born the Name of a Quaker ( he saith ) this twenty Years , and more : Though he IS NO QVAKER , but turn'd an open Enemy to them . Secondly , Because the said Jeffery Bullock , in a great measure , runs parallel with , and resembles William Rogers and his party , in his opposition and gain-saying of that Order and Church-Government that is among us , falsly accusing us with Men's Inventions , Imitations , Traditions , laying aside the Spirits Government , &c. as in his ONE BLOW , &c. Thirdly , Because four Persons of William Rogers's Party * of Chippinham in Wiltsshire have given their approbation in a Letter to the said Jeffery Bullock of his Books , particularly that called , One Blow more against Antichrist's Ministers ; and have declared , that several Friends have good Vnity therewith ; Which I do not believe : And not only so , but this in opposition and contempt to others , whom they abusively revile in these Words ( viz. ) But here are also a company of called Friends , which are very much for Foxonians Orders , which may be called mens Inventions , that do make it their work to Defame and Calumniate all them 〈◊〉 do not conform thereunto . Some of which thou , and most of which we are in our Hearts perswaded are Servants of the living God , amongst which thou hast a share of being villified to be a bad man ; although to us it s no manner of Invitation for us to give Credit thereunto , &c — Barnadiston and another hath been here , their envious Darts fly very swiftly and secretly — If thou pleasest to send half a Dozen of thy Books , &c. With other Aggravations in the said Chippinham Letter , shewing not only their approbation and owning of Jeffery Bullock and his Books , but also their bitterness of Spirit in villifying and reproaching others ; although I understand they have been a little ashamed of their approbation of his Books , yet not that they have repented of the bitterness of their Spirits , nor condemned those villifying Reproaches and bitter Expressions in their said Letter , as Foxonians Orders , Barnadiston and another ; their envious Darts fly very swiftly , &c. What scorn , bitterness , and rancor do such Expressions bespeak ? Christ never taught them to give such Names to Friends as Foxonians , nor would they take it well to be so dealt by , nay , they would think much if they should but be called Johannites , and their reviling Giles Barnardiston , who was a peaceable innocent man , and of good Report , doth bespeak a great Prejudice and Enmity to have entred their Spirits , which they should plainly have condemned ; their Letter is all perverse , but I do not understand any sincere or tender Retractation , or real Condemnation thereof given out by them . Fourthly , Notice is here taken of Jeffery Bullock's Pamphlets , to manifest the great Absurdity that opposit dividing Spirit leads into , and to warn others against it . And why these Persons should so hastily approve of Jeffery Bullock's Books , or say , that several Friends have good Unity therewith , I know no reason , being in several things so Corrupt , Erronious and Atheistical , as they are , except it be with respect to the Oppositions therein contained against the Church-Government , Order and Methods among us , in opposing whereof , Jeffery Bullock was these men's Elder Brother . Concerning which , take a view of some Passages in his said Pamphlet , viz. One Blow more , in his own Words . § . 2. Jeffery Bullock saith , And you my Brethren also ought to have Preached up God's invisible appearance by his Spirit in our dayes , to be the end of mens Inventions , Imitations and false Doctrines : But instead thereof , you have preached up false Doctrines , and also set up your own Inventions among the Quakers so called , p. 5. Answer ; His charge of false Doctrines , and mens Inventions , we utterly deny as slanderous : God's invisible and spiritual Appearance , and the Testimony thereof still lives among us in as high esteem as ever , against false Doctrines and mens Inventions . But herein J. B. resembles the rest of the Opposers , in the work of the false Accuser of our Brethren . Jeffery Bullock . My Brethren , I fear you are not past the Doctrine of the Church of Rome , nor yet of the Priests and Professors of England [ a false Fear ] There is as great necessity of Preaching up Salvation to us Gentiles , by God's invisible Appearance , who is a Spirit , and also his Spirit to be the end of all mens Inventions , Imitations , Traditions , &c. pag. 6. [ True , but misapplied ] Therefore I would have G. Fox , and the eleven Elders , who are preaching up false Doctrines , and also setting up their Inventions among the People called Quakers , as Rules , &c. p. 7. Answer ; Herein he is a false Accuser still like the rest , and he 's far louder in his Charges than in 's Proof . False Doctrines and Inventions of men , both of the Church of Rome and elsewhere , we utterly deny . J. B. My Brethren your visible Church-Government is altogether Antichristian , because that every Member of the Church in God is to be both ruled and governed by the measure of Gods Spirit in them ; and it is none of George Fox 's , nor yet the eleven Elders that is to be a Rule for the Quakers to walk by , p. 9. Answ. His charge of Antichristian and Inventions we utterly deny , and testifie against as Antichristian ; and he , and the rest of his backsliding Spirit , and approvers of him and his Books , are never able to make his Charge good . However , here its plain that he opposes visible Church-Government , because of the inward Rule by the measure of God's Spirit , wherein he argues Erroniously , and contrary to the Apostles Doctrine and Primitive Christians Practice : Both the inward Rule , and outward Order , and due Methods among them , all springing from God's Spirit within , were not to draw them from a dependance on that Spirit , but to shew forth Obedience in Practice and Example to the holy Spirit and pure Religion , and therein to help one another , for which purpose the Holy Ghost made Overseers and Elders , The Elders that rule well are worthy , &c. He that ruleth with Diligence , &c. I left thee in Creet to set in order those things that are lacking , &c. But there were such Apostates then as despised Dominion , and spoke Evil of Dignities , even of those Instruments and Ministers , Helps and Governments , whom the Lord ordained and raised up and dignified in his Church ; and such are these Opposers now in the same Spirit of Opposition and Contempt . § . 3. J. B. And she ( i. e. the Church ) hath no need of your visible Government , because she is the Bride , the Lambs Wife ; and she hath no need of the Light of the Moon to shine in her , because the Lord is the Light , and the Lambs Spirit is the Light of the Church that is in him : But your visible Churches make use of the Light of the Moon , * that is , your Mens Meetings , and also your Womens Meetings , and the Orders which are set up by them , they are to be Rules for your visible Churches to walk by : For the Women have power to order the Affairs of your visible Church , as well as your Men ; and this Practice of yours is altogether Antichristian , and so also is your Church-Government , because it is the Invisible man Christ , who orders all things in his Church by his own Spirit . — Those who are Members of the Church in God among you , in time will abhor your Government , because it is Antichristian ; For you Elders do look upon your selves to be Judges , and that you have Power to determine things in matter of Conscience , &c. p. 10 , 11. Answ. Christ's Government in his Church is both Invisible and Visible , he governs by himself and by his Ministers : all are not come to a ripe Age in him , there are many Children and weak Ones , who have need of helps in Government : Our faithful Mens Meetings and Womens Meetings were set up by the Power of Christ Jesus , and in his Light he governs and rules among them by his own Spirit : And faithful , grave and sober Women have power to be Teachers of good things , and to teach the younger Women . Christian-Church-Order and Spiritual Rule were exercised among the Primitive Christians , both Men and Women , who were Children of New Jerusalem , the free Woman ; the Inhabitants of this City are not without Order , or Ministers therein . And therefore this Opposers Blow and Charge of [ altogether Antichristian ] against our Mens and Womens Meetings , is both Silly , Proofless , Slanderous , and altogether Antichristian , against Christ's Work ( and appointment ) in Male and Female ; and as the Church-Government among us is Christ's Government , both revealed , set up , and ordained by him ; none that are and continue true Members of his Church , will ever abhor that Government , nor reject , slight or despise that promised Dominion and Judgment that he hath given to the Saints to determine matters of Difference , but only Apostates , false Brethren and deceitful Workers , and loose Spirits ; these will be smiting and accusing the Brethren , despising Dominion , and speaking evil of Dignities ; yea , speaking perverse things to draw Disciples after them , crying against outward Rule and Government , Forms and Order in the Church , whilst they are seeking Mastery , Dominion , Rule and Government to themselves . As for our visible Church and visible Church-Government ( or Order ) so much opposed by this Adversary , he talks blindly and ignorantly ; for though the Church be Invisible , as to the Spirits of Men , who are Members of it , and Christ's immediate Rule and Government in the Heart be Invisible , yet there is a Visibility both of the true Christian Congregation , and good Order and Rule therein , proceeding from the Spirit of Christ within . The People of God and their good Conversations and Order in Christ , are not all shut up in an Invisibility , being as Epistles to be read and seen of all ; and they as a City set upon a Hill , &c. J. B. You do prefer your selves , and the Church in the first place before God , who is Light — And have set up themselves and their Church as Head , instead of God and Christ , p. 12. Their setting up themselves and their Government , and are laying aside the Spirit 's Government and Authority , p. 13. Those Elders who call themselves Ministers , look upon themselves and their Image to be equal in Power and Glory , both with the Father and the Son , Testimony against the Quakers , p. 3. Answ. These are notoriously false and slanderous ; We prefer the living God , and his Son Christ Jesus before all , and do not lay aside the Spirit 's Government or Authority , but in humility reverence , and desire ever to live under the same , knowing Self abased , and Images defaced and rejected by the Light of Christ Jesus . § . 4. J. B. If any of those called Teachers intend to speak a few words commonly called Prayer , then the Women and the Men that are set in the Meeting , shall rise up , and the Men will uncover their Heads . — Their Teachers have judged those Quakers not to be real Members of their Church or Body , that have not done it ( i. e. uncovered their Heads ) And herein the Quakers in general have given more Homage , Reverence and Respect to the Words or Prayers of another , wherein there was no Life at all , than they have done to the Word of Life it self in their own Particulars : And this is Anti-christ's work , p. 14 , 15. Answ. His conclusion is false and slanderous herein . We Reverence the Word of Life in our living Prayers , and not Lifeless Words ; And why doth he thus judge any Reverent Posture among us in Prayer , as that of Peoples Rising up , and Mens Uncovering their Heads in our holy Duty of publick Prayer ? This is like John Perrot's prejudiced Party . And how foully Contradictory to himself is he in thus uncharitably judging us for our Reverent Posture or serious Behaviour , which is matter of Conscience to us , when yet he 'l not allow any Members or Elders among us to judge or determine matters relating to Conscience ? And cautions us in Christ's words , Judge not , that ye be not judged , p. 12. Oh , blind harden'd Man ! how darest thou thus judge over our Consciences , or falsly accuse us with leading People from the Power , to worship and reverence the Form more than the Power ? And then most falsly to add , That this is the work of Antichrist among the Quakers , p. 17. Here thou hast slandered , and shamefully belyed the People of God called Quakers , and hast shewn thy self not worthy of so much as the Name of a Quaker . Thou hast long been a Reproach unto them . J. B. Postscript to his Antichrist's Transformations within , ( viz. ) If any amongst you pretend to be moved by the Spirit to go to Prayer , then both Men and Women , they either stand up or else kneel down , and the Men all pull off their Hats , which own your Form of Prayer ; and herein you do both Worship , Reverence and Adore the Form outwardly , and the Words more than you do the Word of Life in your own Particulars . Answ. An erronious Conclusion , and no natural Consequence , either of our standing up , kneeling or putting off our Hats in Prayer ; for all these may be and are innocently and conscientiously performed with Respect ( and in a holy Reverence ) to Almighty God , whom we breathe and pray unto by his own Spirit . Besides , both Kneeling and being Uncovered have been practised among God's People and true Christians in Prayer to him ; so that these Postures are not condemnable in themselves . How blind and ignorant therefore is this Gain-sayer in his Opposition ? Read Psal. 95.6 . O come , let us Worship and Bow down ▪ Let us Kneel before the Lord our Maker . And Acts 21.5 . And we Kneeled down on the Shore and prayed ; see also 1 Cor. 11.4 . § . 5. Having thus manifested the Heads of Jeffery Bullock's Opposition to outward Order and visible Church Government , &c. and how blind and irrational he is therein , Inconsistent , Erronious and Antichristian in his Judgment . Now take a view of the Doctrinal part of some of those Doctrines he opposeth , and what Doctrines he asserteth . J. B. The second false Doctrine by you Preached , and also Printed , is , That the Seed , Spirit , Word , or God , is both in Prison , Bondage and Captivity , and to be quickned , raised , &c. and that the Blessing is to the Seed , p. 2 , 3. of his ONE BLOW . Answ. Herein he hath dealt unfairly and fallaciously ; he hath not produced any Book of ours , or our Friends , wherein this Doctrine is Printed , nor proved where any of us have thus asserted in these very Words , though much of his opposition in his Pamphlets depend hereupon . We deny the Doctrine that the Word , God , is either in Bondage or Captivity in the Sons and Daughters of men , but only that there is a Seed of God and of Christ that is oppressed , and suffers in many by reason of Transgression [ a Seed of God ] is commonly our phrase and terms in this case : God is greater , he is above all , he is God and Father of his own Seed and Birth in man , which is a tender Seed , a lowly and innocent Seed , of the nature of Christ Jesus as Mediator , who hath planted of his own Seed in man from the beginning , even of his own Life , Soul and Image , &c. who was The first born of every Creature , who said , My Father is greater than I : A●● from this Seed comes a holy Generation , in them that believe in his Name and Power . Read also the Parable of the Sower , which was the Son of Man , and of the Seed that fell , some on good Ground , some on stony Ground , and some in High-way Ground , &c. And also how the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a Grain of Mustard Seed ; as also the Parable of the Pearl hid in the Field , &c. And further , the Seed of God and Christ may suffer , and yet not be in Bondage nor Captivity ; nor hath the Devil or Sin , power or dominion over Christ or his Spirit in man ( as J. B. falsly infers against us ) but over the Soul and whole Creature in Sin , for whom Christ laid down his Life , and took it up again , who gave his Flesh for the Life of the World ; And every one that seeth the Son , and believeth on him , shall have everlasting Life ; and I will raise him up at the last day , ( saith Christ ) John 6.39 , 40 , 44. and ver . 54. Christ Jesus is not brought into Bondage or Captivity in man , though he condescends to suffer and bear Affliction for his own Seed and Generation , to bring them forth ; for his own Arm can bring Salvation to him : he can take unto him his great Power when he pleaseth : Though he was oppressed and afflicted , and his Soul was Sorrowful , nigh unto Death , when he bore the Sin of many in the dayes of his Flesh , & when the Iniquities of all did meet upon him , when he suffered on the Cross ; and he is also such an high Priest as can be touched with the feeling of our Infirmities , suffer with us , and be afflicted in all our Afflictions ; many are also said , To pierce him , grieve his holy Spirit , crucifie to themselves the Lord of Life afresh , and to tread under Foot the Son of God , &c. These are certain Allusions and Elegancies , intimating Christ's suffering , and also his being offended and grieved by the Contempt , Despight and Enmity of the Rebellious : And yet Christ cannot be properly said to be in bondage or captivity in the Sons and Daughters of men ; for ( as in himself ) he that was dead , and is alive , ever lives in Dominion , having power over all Flesh , that he might give eternal Life to all that come unto him , & truly believe in him : 'T is properly said of the Souls of Man and Woman in the Fall , that they are in Bondage and Captivity ; that they are in Prison and Thraldom , till Christ bring them forth and deliver them : Psal. 142.1 . Bring my Soul out of Prison that I may praise thy Name . And be sure he that brings the Soul out of Prison , does condescend to visit it in Prison . He that brings up the Soul out of the horrible Pit , does first descend or reach so low to fetch it up , or else it would alwayes remain th●re . § . 6. J. B. Antichrist's Transformations , pag. 9. The Seed is not to arise in man — And p. 25. I disown the arising of the Seed or God in man. Answ. A sad Doctrine and State ! That 's because the Enemy is arisen to such a great hight in thee , that thou dost not own the arising of the Seed of God in thee : What Fruit canst thou bring forth to God , if thou dost deny the arising of his Seed in thee ? 'T is evident thy Heart is bad Ground , stony Ground and thorny Ground , in which the good Seed hath not taken Root , so as to spring up , and bring forth Fruit unto Perfection ; for in the good Ground or honest Heart it takes Root downward , and brings forth Fruit upward . And they that take heed unto the Light of Christ in them , where it shines but as in a dark place , they come to see the Day dawn , and the Day-Star arise in their Hearts : And is not Christ Jesus the bright and Morning Star ? But thou , as an enemy to the Seed of God , disownest the arising of his Seed in thee . Howbeit , that His Light doth ARISE : The brightness of his RISING : He shall grow up : Truth shall SPRING out of the Earth : The Sun of Righteousness shall ARISE : The Day spring : Let God ARISE and his Enemies be scattered , &c. The Word of God grew : So mightily grew the Word of God and prevailed . These are Scripture Terms and Language , though little heeded by thee : We shall see more of thy absurd and erronious Disownings and Denyings anon , concerning the very Christ of God , and the Soul , &c. But how comest thou to deny the arising of the Seed in man , when thou hast espoused and cited what G. B. writ as thou sayest , against that Paper of Orders , &c. seeing he herein plainly saith , The Revelation of God is to his Seed , and his secrets he reveals to it , for which he made the World , and for whose sake it is continued ; And now the SEED IS RAISED to reign over all . ( Thus far G. B. thy authority . ) But how shamefully hast thou contradicted him in this matter , in thy disowning the arising of the Seed in Man ? § . 7. J. B. You do preach both Salvation and Justification , and also Condemnation to us Gentiles , by the man Christ , the Son of God , as other Professions do ; and this Doctrine I would have you to prove , because you preach Salvation by Christ the Light within . — You Preachers do say in your Declaration , that the Son of God is come , and hath given you an understanding ; the which Doctrine I do deny , ONE BLOW , p. 20. Answ. Thou that canst not reconcile ( or see the consistency of ) Salvation by the Man Christ Jesus , AND by his Light within , art gone from his Light into Imaginations . Why hast thou not better observed the Gospel preached by the Angel of the Lord to the Shepherds , concerning Jesus Christ the Son of God , Luke 2.11 . For unto you is born this day in the City of David a Saviour , which is Christ the Lord ; see also Mat. 1.21 . Read also good Old Simeon's Testimony , which he gave of the Lord 's Christ , Luke 2.26 , 27 , 28. And also read Verse 30 , 31 , 32. For mine Eyes have seen thy Salvation , which thou hast prepared before the Face of all People , a Light to lighten the Gentiles , and the Glory of thy People Israel . The true Christ of God is but one , though he hath appeared in divers manners , both in the Flesh and in the Spirit ; he is the Light ; he is the Way to the Father ; he is the Saviour ; he is the one Mediator betwixt God and Man , even the Man Christ Jesus , the heavenly , glorious Man , the Man that was promised to be for a hiding place , who in the dayes of his Flesh , said , I am the Light of the World — And , He that is with you , shall be in you . As he was the eternal Word , the Son of God ; the Life that was in him was the Light of men ( John 1. ) both before his coming in the Flesh , and ever since , and therefore he was that true Light that enlightens every man that cometh into the World ; he was given for Life and Salvation : This our one Lord Jesus Christ is our Light , Life and Salvation , he is also Judge of quick and dead , that MAN by whom God will judge the World in Righteousness ; he that believeth not in his Name , is condemned already ; and This is the Condemnation that Light is come into the World ( i. e. the Light of the Son of God ) and Men love Darkness rather then Light , John 3. see also 2 Thes. 1.7 , 8. When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with his mighty Angels in flaming Fire , taking Vengeance on them that know not God , and that obey not the Gospel , &c. Then such shall know him their Judge and Condemner unto their deserved punishment ; see Verse 9. J. B. You Teachers do hold forth to us Gentiles Christ the Son of God , to be our Way to the Father ; The which Doctrine I would have you to prove ; One Blow , p. 20. Answ. What defidence and unbelief hath entred thee ? Christ the Son of God testied , John 14.6 . I am the Way , the Truth , and the Life : No man cometh unto the Father but by me ; and no man cometh unto me , except the Father which hath sent me draw him . Wherefore in that no man cometh unto the Father but by the Son , the Son is the way to the Father , and the Father's drawing or teaching reacheth unto man , before he come to the Son or Father , that he may be drawn and come to both . No mans knows the Father , but the Son , and he to whom the Son will reveal him . Therefore Christ the Son of God , is the way to the Father out of Adam in the fall ( if thou l't believe him ) and 'T is by one Spirit through Jesus Christ ( the Mediator ) that we have access to the Father . § . 8. J. B. In his gross Errors detected , or many of the Doctrines of the leading Quakers disowned , as coming from an Antichristian Spirit , p. 1. he saith , John Webb's Doctrine was , That God's appearance in the Sons and Daughters of men , is to beget and bring forth that innocent Birth and Babe immortal , &c. This Doctrine doth signifie that God's appearance is to his Son Christ Jesus , and for the begetting and bringing of him forth in the Sons and Daughters of men ; the which Doctrine I do deny . Answ. First , God's appearance in the Sons and Daughters of men , is not to bring forth a nocent Birth , nor a Babe that 's mortal , but an innocent Birth , and a Babe immortal . Except a man be Born of Water and the Spirit , he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God : And whosoever is born of God , doth not commit Sin , for his Seed remaineth in him . Secondly ; This innocent Birth , which God by his Spirit brings forth in the Sons and Daughters of men , who truly believe , relates to them and their souls , as begotten and born of the immortal seed , by the living word : so that this Birth is not Christ Jesus ; for he is that incorruptible Seed and Word of Life , which begets , forms and brings forth the Soul of man into his own Nature and Image , and so he renews his own Image in man , that believes in his Power ; and so Christ may be said to be formed in us , as in a mysterious and elegant way of speaking : the property and effect being put for the cause ; for Christ in himself hath all Power in Heaven and Earth given to him , and it hath pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell in him . J. B. That God's appearance is in and by his Son Christ Jesus to us , and that all are to hear the Son in them , by whom the Father speaketh to them , and that the Son in us is our way to the Father ; The which Doctrine I do deny . His gross Error , p. 1. Answ. Here thou hast denyed sound Doctrine , which is according to Christs own Doctrine , i. e. He that seeth me , seeth the Father also : who hath shined in our Hearts , to give us the Light of the Knowledge of his Glory in the face of Christ Jesus : And my Sheep hear my Voice , saith Christ : And God hath spoken to us by his Son. Thy denying God's appearing , and speaking by his Son , and his Son to be our way to the Father ▪ Herein thou hast not only denyed Christ's own Testimony , but the blessed advantage we have by him as MEDIATOR . J. B. Another of their Doctrines is , That the Quakers ought so to wait upon God , as that they may feel the Life in them to flow from Vessel to Vessel , whenas they are met together to wait upon God. This was Charles Marshalls Wife's Doctrine , p. 2 ibid. Answ. This is neither false Doctrine nor gross Error , as thou imaginest , but sound Doctrine ; Hannah Marshall knew better than thy self herein ; for they that truly wait upon God , both receive an encrease of Life from him who is the Fountain , and feel Life to flow from Vessel to Vessel ; He that believes as the Scripture saith , out of his Belly shall flow Rivers of living Waters ; This spake he of the Spirit , which they that believe should receive . And the true Believers all drink into One Spirit . And there is among such a spiritual and effectual Communication of Faith and Virtue , in the living Communion of the holy Spirit ; all which thy dark Imaginations have deprived thee of . J. B. These Doctrines of the Quakers are false Doctrines and Antichristian , because that God's Appearance is not by his Son Christ Jesus to us , p. 3. Answ. Thou art guilty of Antichristian Doctrine , and Anti-scriptural also , in denying God's Appearance to be by his Son Christ Jesus , The Mediator ; for what God is to us for our Salvation , and what good we receive from him for our Souls , and what we are unto him in our Obedience ( as acceptable to him ) 't is all IN and Through our Lord Jesus Christ the Mediator . J. B. That God , who is a Spirit , should be held in Bondage and Captivity by his Creation , or by the Power of Darkness , is contrary to Right Reason — So that it must needs follow by plain Argument , that not only the Creature , but the Power of Darkness too hath had Dominion over God — contrary to sound Doctrine , and is Blasphemy , pag. 5 , 6. GROSS ERRORS . Answ. This thou hast often unjustly and slanderously repeated upon the Quakers ; and herein I testifie against thy Abuse , and dare Challenge thee to prove out of any of our Writings , that 't is the Quakers Doctrine , That either God is held in Bondage or Captivity by his Creation , or that the Power of Darkness hath Dominion over him . We utterly deny the Assertion and Expressions as Blasphemous ; but do say , the holy Spirit is grieved , and the Seed of God burdened by the Iniquities of the World , which suffering is in Condescention on Christ's part , and not for want of Power or Dominion over the Devil or Wicked men ; for he bruiseth his Head , hath Power to subdue , condemn and punish them , and his own Arm to bring Salvation to him . J. B. Another of their Doctrines , That all are to come to the Son of God , Christ Jesus , whom they say is in them , and that he is the only Way to the Father ; which Doctrine I do deny , because it is God who both was and is a Spirit , which hath first appeared in and to the Sons and Daughters of men , after sin , &c. — Therefore every one is to be first turned to God in their own particulars , and NOT to the Son of God , p 8. Gross Errors . Answ. This Erronious Denyal and Doctrine of thine , against coming to the Son of God , as the only Way to the Father , is but the same reiterated over and over . The Father and the Son are not divided in the work of Regeneration . I and my Father are one , saith Christ : No man cometh to the Father but by me . But 't is no marvel that thou hast denyed Christ ( the Mediator ) to be the way to the Father , and so opposed his Mediatorship ; for thy Denyals and Oppositions appear more Gross , Erronious and Antichristian against Christ himself and the holy Scriptures in thy Antichrist's Transformations . 1st , In thy not owning Justification or Condemnation by Christ * that dyed without the Gates of Jerusalem ; which thou confessest to be the ground and main Difference that arose between some of the Quakers and thee , p. 10. 2dly , In thy asserting , That Christ's Soul dyed , p. 19. * And so thy holding the the Mortality of the Soul in general . 3dly , Thy asserting , That the Book of the Scriptures both was and is the fruit which the Tree of Knowledge bears , p. 22. 4thly , Thy affirming , That there is Two Christs , p. 23. Thus thou arguest . § . 9. J. B. It is no where written in the Scriptures , that we shall either be justified or condemned by that Christ which dyed without the Gates of Jerusalem ; but it is written , By Grace ye are saved , and by Grace ye are justified ; and 't is also written , By the Light of the World ye are condemned ; and not by Christ that dyed without the Gates of Jerusalem , Antichr . Transf . p. 17. Answ. Here again thy erronious Blindness is apparent , who seest not how consistent being saved and justified by that Christ who is the very Christ of God , to whom all the Prophets gave witness , AND being saved and justified by his Grace ; both which the holy Scripture testifie . Isa. 53.11 . By his Knowledge shall my Righteous Servant justifie many ; for he shall bear their Iniquities . This was a Prophecy of the same Christ that suffered ; and Mat. 1.21 . She shall bring forth a Son , and thou shalt call his Name Jesus , for he shall save his People from their Sins ; and verse 23. Behold , a Virgin shall be with Child , and shall bring forth a Son , and his Name shall be called Emanuel , which being interpreted , is , God with us : And Luke 2.11 . For unto you is born this day in the City of David a Saviour , which is Christ the Lord. And that Grace by which we are saved , is that Grace of God which comes by Christ ; see also Tit. 2.11 , 12 , 13 , 14. Where the saving Grace of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ , who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all Iniquity &c. are testified of ; and therefore Salvation by that Christ , through his Grace are not Inconsistent . J. B. Now if Salvation be by that Christ that dyed without the Gates at Jerusalem , then are all the Gentiles perished that were in the World before that Body came into the World , Antich . Trans . p. 18. Answ. Thy consequence is erronious ; for that very Christ , the Son of God , was ( and is ) Mediator and Saviour from the beginning ; his outgoings were from of Old , he was spiritually in being by his Life , Light , Spirit and Grace before he took upon him that Body prepared of the Father to do his Will. John bore witness of that Man Christ , saying , He that cometh after me is preferred before me , for he was before me , John 1.15 . And again , vers . 30. After me cometh a man which is preferred before me , for he was before me : Therefore the Man Christ Jesus was before he came in the Body or Flesh : He was that spiritual Rock which all Israel drank of ; his Life was the Light of men from the beginning , and all the generations of the Righteous did spiritually p●rtake of the benefit of Christ as Mediator , both before and after his Coming in the flesh they vertually pertook of the Sacrifice of the Lamb , of the vertue of the Blood of the Covenant for Remission , and were saved by the Life of this Mediator ; by Faith they pertook of the spiritual Advantage of his suffering and sacrifice , who was as a Lamb slain from the Foundation of the World , and as ( in the fullness of time ) his coming and suffering in the flesh , and his tasting Death for every man , and his giving himself a Ransom for all , were for a Testimony in due time of God's great kindness to Mankind . So Christ's coming in the flesh an eminent Dispensation from God , ordained and decreed in great love to Mankind : So that thereby a greater and more eminent discovery and breaking forth of his Light and Glory in the Gospel Day and Dispensation was manifest in due time , which Glory the holy spirit of Christ in the holy Prophets testified of , as that which should follow his sufferings ; and in him are all Nations and Families of the Earth blessed and saved , who believe and walk in his Light. J. B. All the World was freed from their Offerings for sin by that one Offering — reconciled to God by the death of his Son — But we must be redeemed , justified and also saved by a measure of the same Life that dwelt in the Son , in which Life the Son of God offered up his Soul and Body to be crucified to the Death a Sacrifice once for all * Then NO Salvation to the Souls of the Sons and Daughters of men by him that dyed without the Gates at Jerusalem , p. 19. Anti. Transformations . Answ. An erronious Inference still , and most blindly reiterated ; for if we must be saved by that Life that was in the Son of God , how darest thou deny Salvation to the souls of Mankind by him that so suffered and dyed ? seeing we are reconciled by his Death ; who dyed and rose again , and Death has no more dominion over him ? And hast not thou confessed that we are reconciled by his Death , so we shall be saved by his Life ? Well , by whose Life ? by the Life of the very same Christ of God , who ( as concerning the flesh ) was put to Death . And was his Death then no ways conducing to our Salvation ? How are we then reconciled by it ? Is Reconciliation no degree of Salvation ? Surely thou art under great Contradiction and gross Mistakes in this matter . To thy Objection , That Mary saith , her Soul did magnifie the Lord , and her Spirit did rejoyce in God her Saviour , p. 21. And that God said , Look unto Me all ye Ends of the Earth , and be saved , p. 23. This is no proof that his Son Jesus Christ was No Saviour ; for God saves by his Son ; God was in Christ reconciling the World to himself ; God works by the Mediator ; and Jesus Christ , who is the Saviour and the Redeemer is both truly God and Man Inseparable . But how comest thou off in answer to the Objection made against thee , ( viz. ) If no Salvation by that Christ that dyed without the Gates of Jerusalem , then thy Doctrine implyeth two Christs , which we do not profess , nor preach , nor own ; for in words thou over and over tellest us of that Christ that dyed without the Gates , and that he was the Son of God , the Christ of God , &c. What sayst thou to this ? Review thy following words : J. B. ( viz. ) Now that there are two Christs , it is plain according to the Scriptures ; for there is both the true Christ and Antichrist , p. 23. Rep. Oh , sad and lamentable ! How absurdly , blindly and erroniously hast thou answered here ! The Objection or Question against thee was not about Antichrist , but about the True Christ , who is the very Christ of God , who was crucified at Jerusalem , and is in his Saints ( by his Light , Life and Spirit ) whom thy Doctrine tends to render Two Christs , and so to divide the True Christ ; but we testifie he is but One ; As to us there is but ONE GOD , the Father , of whom are all things , and we in him ; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ , by whom are all things , and we by him , 1 Cor. 8.6 . And of this ONE Lord Jesus Christ the true Apostles testified as One and the same Christ , though he variously appeared , according to what is written of him , ( 1 Cor. 15. & 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , verses ) of his Death and Resurrection , and how he was seen of many , And last of all he was seen of me also , ( saith Paul ) as of one born out of due time , v. 8. This was ONE and the SAME CHRIST still . § . 10. J. B. Now Christ he neither came of David , nor yet of Israel , according to the Flesh ; not as to his outward appearance as he was a visible Man ; but he came of David and Israel both , according to the Spirit : And this is the Spirit whom God hath exalted , both as a Prince and a Saviour ; Anti. Trans . p. 23. Answ. This is a gross Mistake , and Contradictory to plain Scripture ; see Rom. 1.3 , 4 , 5. Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord , which was made of the seed of David according to the Flesh ; and declared to be the Son of God with Power , according to the spirit of Holiness , by the Resurrection from the dead ; by whom we have received GRACE and Apostleship for obedience to the Faith among all Nations for his Name ; see also Rom. 9.5 . But thou sayst , He neither came of David , nor yet of Israel according to the flesh , quite contrary to the Apostle's testimony ; Which shall People believe , thee or the Apostle ? Surely not such a blind , muddled , confused , dark and dull Soul as thou art . I wish thee ( with the Light of Christ within , on the holy Scriptures ) to recollect thy self better , that thou mayst repent , and condemn , and call in thy muddled , confused , distracted , whimsical and mad Pamphlets , that would be the safest way for thee upon all accounts ; for thou hast no matter of Religion to suffer for , thy hope being in this Life only according to thy Principle of the Soul's Mortality . J. B. He that dyed without the Gates at Jerusalem — he was the Christ of God , being one with the Spirit of God ; but it was the Womans part * that dyed , that was his * Soul and Body . — Now Christ as he was a visible Man , and made of a visible Woman made under the Law , he INTERNALLY DYED , as to his SOUL and BODY ; Antichrist's Transformations , pag. 19. Answ. Oh poor Jeffery ! Whither art thou run in thy whimsical Conceits , and distracted Imaginations , one while to DENY Jesus Christ the Son of God , to be the Way to the Father ; another while to DENY Salvation by him ; another while to DENY the Immortality of his Soul ; and here most erroniously to AFFIRM , That his Soul dyed , and that he internally dyed as to his Soul. Oh! Antichristian and Antiscriptural Doctrine ! For though he was put to death only as to his Body , his Soul dyed not with it ; for he said , Father , into thy Hands I commend my Spirit , Luke 23.46 . see Acts 7.59 . And to the penitent Thief , To Day shalt thou be with me in Paradise , Luke 23.43 . Therefore his Soul ( or Spirit ) dyed not with the Body , he did not internally dye , he dyed only as to the Body , being put to death as concerning the Flesh , and rose again the third day , according to the Scriptures ; and Death has no more dominion over him . And although it be said , He hath poured out his Soul unto Death : This concerned the travail of soul , and sorrows of death , which he was under the sence of , when he said , My Soul is exceeding sorrowful , even unto death , Matth. 26.38 . whilst yet his soul was living and immortal in its own being , praying and making intercession unto the Father : For pouring out the Soul or Heart , sometimes ( in Scripture ) imports an earnest supplication to God , and travail in Prayer ; Psal. 42.4 . I pour out my Soul in me . And Psal. 62.8 . Pour out your Heart before him , God is a Refuge for us . The soul of Messiah was poured out in Prayer and Supplication to the Father , whilst in great sorrow and deep suffering for Mankind , even when he bore the Sin of many , and made intercession for the Transgressors . Thus his soul was poured out , and made an offering for Sin , that he might see his Seed , and the effect of his Souls travail , and be satisfied , and through all Reign with the Father in the same Glory which he had with him before the World began . So that the Messiah reigneth in Life , Glory and Immortality , blessed forever ; and his Saints shall reign with him for evermore . But thy Error ends not here , in asserting that Christ's Soul dyed , seeing thou hast publickly opposed the Immortality of the Soul in my hearing , and the hearing of many more , and hast affirmed , The mortality of the Soul of man , that it dyes with the Body . And so denying future States , Beeings and Rewards of mankind . Thou knowest ( Jeffery ) I have laboured with thee at sundry times , and before several endeavoured to Convince thee of thy Atheistical Error in this very point ; and many are my Witnesses therein : But thou hast appeared wilful , dark and pertinacious in thy blind , dark and confused Imaginations , whereupon I have exhorted thee , and do exhort thee , to give over Preaching , and telling People of saving their Souls by the Word , and of raising of our Souls out of the Grave of Sin and Death , by the Light and Power of God within , when thou dost not believe any Immortality of the Souls of Men , more than of a Beast , as I have told thee to thy Face ; when the Beast dyes , there 's an end . So what gross Hypocrisie is it in thee so often to Preach in Friends Meetings at Sudbury , in opposition to our Friends , and to pretend , as if thou hadst such a great Regard to Peoples Souls , that they might be saved , raised up , and delivered from Sin in this Life , when thou hast nothing further to propose to them , than only a Hope in this Life , a Happiness in this Life , a Portion in this Life ? which is so short and uncertain , that the dayes of Man here are compared but to a Shadow , and to a Cloud that vanishes , and as being swifter than a Post , or than a Tale that 's told , and swifter than a Weavers Shuttle , &c. So that if we have hope in this life Only , we are of all men most miserable . But I cannot take thee as a Person consistent with thy self , in this thy Atheistical Doctrine of the Soul's Mortality , no more than in other things ; for thou art manifestly inconsistent and contradictory to thy self in this matter ; for in thy Pamphlet ( i. e. GROSS ERRORS ) thou hast confessed , That Christ's Soul never was captivated , p. 4. And , That the Blessing is to God's invisible Creation within the Sons and Daughters of men , as that cometh to be begotten by a measure of divine Life , into a true and living Faith ; the which invisible Creation ( sayest thou ) or the Souls and Vnderstandings of men and women , over the which Death , that power of Darkness hath invisibly reigned , p. 3. And , That Ministry which is sent of God , it is to the Souls and Vnderstandings of Men and Women — That so their Souls may be turned to the Light , or measure of divine Life which hath appeared to their Souls , p. 4. As also thou sayest , That God's appearance is both to the Souls and Vnderstandings of the Sons and Daughters of Men , even whilst they are altogether Children of the Vnrighteous Nature and Spirit , for that very end , that so they may be quickned , and also raised up , and so come to be changed , they being made partakers of the Divine Nature , pag. 7. Query : How then dost thou affirm that such Souls are Mortal ? This change in such Souls does not only bespeak their Immortality , but their being Immortally happy : Is not that Soul or Birth immortal that 's capable of partaking of the divine Nature , or that doth partake thereof ? Can that Soul dye with the Body , or end in Mortality ? No , no ; the very Souls of the Wicked , and impenitent workers of Iniquity , shall live in Torment , where the Worm dyeth not , and the Fire is never quenched ; Christ's instance of Dives and Lazarus doth really intimate the two different states hereafter ; see Luke 16.22 , 23. &c. How grosly Erronious and Contradictory art thou in this point ? and farther to thy own confutation , addest , ( viz. ) Thus the Sons and Daughters of Vnrighteousness come to be made the Children of Righteousness , they being changed , and also lifted up by the Spirit of Life from under the power of Death , into the Kingdom of God , with him to reign over the Power of Death , even as the Son of God did in the dayes of his Flesh , p. 7. How now Jeffery ? These passages relating to the Soul's conversion , and their being made partakers of the Divine Nature , and being lifted up into the Kingdom of God , are some of thy better sort of Preaching ; but thy Doctrine of the Soul's mortality , or the Soul 's dying with the Body , doth allow the Souls of the Children of men , even of the Converted , but a very short share , and uncertain time in the Kingdom of God , if but in this Life only . O Jeffery ! give over thy troublesom , hypocritical Preaching in our Friends Meetings for shame , and never pretend such a concern for the Conversion and Salvation of Peoples Souls , whilst thou holdest this Atheistical Opinion , That they are all Mortal . Keep at home , and give over such Hypocritical Preaching , for 't is neither Conscientious nor Religious . § . 11. Now concerning the Scripture , thy Doctrine followeth . J. B. ( in his Antichrist's Transformations , p. 22. ) saith , ( viz. ) For the Book of the Scriptures both was and is the Fruit which the Tree of Knowledge bears . And in his Testimony against the Quakers false Doctrine ( as he falsly calleth it ) page 19. He saith thus , viz. The Book of the Scriptures is part of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge — I say , that the Book of the Scriptures is the Fruit that the Tree of Knowledge bears . Answ. This Doctrine is not only Unscriptural , but a dark , erronious Imagination and Whimsie of thy own : Thou knowest not whereof thou affirmest , and hast plainly contradicted thy self herein , by confessing not only , That the Scriptures are opened by the Spirit of Truth , but that They were given forth by the Word of Life , p. 22. and 29. Thou farther proceedest ( like a whimsical , self-opposing and contradictory Person ) in these words , ( viz. ) Let all that read your Book , and also the Letter that was given me , which I disowned ( which Letter is printed in my first Book ) and they may easily perceive that the Line of your Testimony is in the Letter and Book of the Scriptures , and not in the Light and Law written in the Heart . Thus in thy Testimony , p. 19. Here thou hast at one dash confuted and overthrown thy own Work , and knockt down thy own evil cause at one blow . Thou hast undertaken to detect the Quakers Errors , and many of the Doctrines of the leading Quakers , as Erronious , Antichristian , &c. And , To give a Testimony against the Quakers false Doctrine , ( as thou falsly callest it ) even in the Titles of thy Pamphlets ) but now confessest our Testimony is in the Letter and Book of the Scriptures . Thus hast thou denyed and opposed that Testimony which is in the Book of the Scriptures , and not only So , but most erroniously opposed the Light and Law written in the Heart thereunto ; when as they do agree , and the Scripture cannot be broken . Therefore Repent of thy vain and Antichristian opposition . Another Contradiction is in thy following words ( viz. ) J. B. Your Paper to the Churches is not to be owned by the Churches , inasmuch as it was written from a sight or a sence , and not in and from the Spirit of Revelation : Now whatsoever is written , declared , or given forth in the sight or in the sence , is not to be owned . Antichrist's Transformations , p. 2. And p. 25. ibid. I disown that to be any true Ministry for God , who in their Declarations do exhort both Friends and other People , to come to a sence , and to wait in a sence , and continue in a sence ; for God is not a sence , neither is his Spirit a sence . But in plain contradiction ●ereto , p. 9. Lazarus was raised , and so must we be raised by the same Voice , Spirit and Power , must we come both to FEEL and Witness Christ the Light within , to be our Resurrection , and our Life , by FEELING and Receiving his Power revealed from Heaven , &c. Observe ; Here thou hast confessed to the Truth of Feeling and witnessing Christ , Feeling and receiving his Power , &c. contrary to thy opposing and denying what 's written in the sense , and exhorting Friends , &c. To come to wait and continue in a sence , whereas there is a spiritual sence and feeling of divine Life ; there are spiritual Sences to be exercised by the holy Spirit , to discern between good and evil . There is a spiritual seeing , tasting and handling of the Word of Life , but thou hast lost these Senses , thou art out of they right Senses , which makes thee so Sensless and Nonsensical in thy scribling , and full of rambling confused Whimsies , Delusions and dark Imaginations , which are the effects of thy Disobedience to , and Apostacy from the Light of Christ within , which convinced thee long ago . § . 12. And now I would have thee observe thy manifest and practical Contradiction to a Passage in conclusion of thy Gross Errors , Postscript . The Passage is this , ( viz. ) J. B. It is an Antichristian Spirit in all which leads People ( under what Profession soever ) to think of themselves above others , or to be in a better state than others , or to separate themselves from others , although their Souls may have seen by the Light within them beyond others ; yet these ought not to separate themselves from others ; for they have been Children of Darkness as well as others ; for if they do separate themselves from others , then this holds forth a certain Testimony , that they do think of themselves above others , and also to be in a better state than others are in ; so that this is all Antichrist's work . Answ. Why dost thou then separate thy self from others , that is , from the Church of England ? for by this Proposition thou oughtst not so to separate , nor to frequent the Quakers Meetings , nor to preach in them , whether thou thinkest thy self in a better state than those of the Church of England or not , or that thy Soul hath seen by the Light within beyond them , as doubtless thou thinkest thy self herein above them : On this Proposition of thy own thou oughtst not to separate , nor to preach in the Quakers Meetings . And if thou didst not think thy self to see with the Light within beyond them of the Church of England , there were no reason for thee then to separate from them . Behold ! thy Practical Contradiction and Ranterism , in thy Proposition or Doctrine against separating from others , on the account of seeing with the Light beyond them , which is to maintain a confused mixture and society in Worship , between those that see with the Light , and those that see not with it , between the Seeing and the Blind , the Children of the Light and the Children of Darkness ; for thy opposing a Separation from others is without distinction , and yet thou art in a Separation from others . Why separatest thou from the National Worship , and makest thy self a Preacher at the Quakers Meetings in Sudbury ? when they disown thee , thy Preaching and Corrupt , Erronious and Antiscriptural Doctrine ? As , Thy Denying Christ , the Son of God , to be our way to the Father . Thy Denying Salvation or Condemnation by the same Christ that suffered . Thy Denying the Immortality of the Soul of Christ Jesus , or of any other Souls of Mankind , and affirming , That his Soul dyed , and that he internally dyed , as to his Soul , &c. And thy asserting , The Book of the Scriptures to be the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge . And thy Denying the Arising of the Seed of God and Christ in man. And thy Denying to come to a Sense , and to wait in a Sense in thy self , and opposing preaching from a sight and sence ; as in thy Antichrists Transformations , p. 2 , 25. Thy dark and erronious Doctrine and Preaching in these things the True Christian Quakers utterly deny , with many other dark erronious Positions , Whimsies , Contradictions and blind Oppositions , Falshoods and Abuses , foolish and unlearned Questions in thy Pamphlets here omitted ; as also thy Hypocritical Preaching in pretence , For the good of Souls , For the quickning of Souls , For the raising up of Souls , For the converting of Souls , That Peoples Souls may partake of the divine Nature , and be lifted up into the Kingdom of God , &c. Which though this be the best sort of thy Preaching , and in the best words thou hast , yet while thou denyest the Immortality of the Soul , and concludest , They all dye with the earthly Tabernacles , and so a total end of all : This thy gross and Atheistical Error is enough to evince thy abominable Hypocrisie and Irreligiousness in the best sort of thy Preaching . And therefore give over thy preaching in our Friends Meetings , hold thy Tongue , lay thy hand upon thy Mouth , keep at home , and seriously bethink thy self , and remember from whence thou art fallen , and then condemn , retract and call in thy Erroneous and Antichristian Pamphlets . Remember I have herein given thee the safest Counsel , in Love and Friendship to thee , and to thy Immortal Soul , which shall remember me when thou art awakened under the hand of thy Righteous Judge , who is the Judge of all , to whom I can sincerely appeal , and commit my Christian and faithful Endeavours concerning these Controversies and Differences with thee and the rest concerned in this Treatise , you being all concerned in one Spirit of Opposition , Prejudice , Strife and Enmity , though thou hast exceeded the rest in thy Doctrinal part , in presumptuously attempting such an Antichristian Confutation of the Quakers Doctrines . And with my solemn Appeal and Supplication I do Conclude . OH ! Thou Heart-searching God and righteous Iudge of all , unto thee I make my Appeal and Supplication , against this Jealous , Dividing , Rending Spirit that hath appeared in Strife and open Contention against thy Servants and faithful Witnesses , and against that good order and society that thou hast been pleased to gatber us into . Thou knowest the integrity of my soul before thee , and that I have waited for thy Counsel how to act and behave my self in these matters , and that I have not sought to exalt my self , nor any Popularity , Party or Interest to my self , but only thy Glory and the good of Souls . Thou knowest , that in the first place my soul hath sought for Peace in the way of Peace , and for a quiet Composure of Differences , occasioned by some Self-willed and Luke-warm Professors of thy Truth , whilst there was any hope or probability thereof , before the opposite Party became open Adversaries . And O Lord thou knowest I am not alone in this concern , many others of thy faithful servants have traveled in the same Christian Spirit with me , for peace and quietness , and for a quiet end of Differences in Truth and Righteousness : But thine and our Adversaries have rewarded us evil for good , and to me hatred for my love . And now ▪ O Lord , behold how true love and tenderness is rejected by thy Adversaries , and how thy holy spirit is offended ! Behold and judge the bitterness of their spirits ; Their Rancor and Fury , their Words of Hatred , Reviling and Slander against thy faithful Servants and Witnesses ; Their Disregard to the Honour and Reputation of thy Truth , thy Name and People ; Their working against the Glory and Honour of thy excellent Name among us ; Their crucifying thy Son afresh to themselves , and putting him to open shame and reproach in the Eyes of thy open Enemies and Persecutors of thy People . Oh! Lord , Lord , look down , behold and judge for these things , show thy Power in putting an end as openly to these Controversies , as they are openly forced out into the World by Apostates and Adversaries of thy Truth and People . Thou knowest , O Lord , that though thou hast endued me with a Christian Spirit , and with Faith , Patience and Rejoycing under all my Sufferings and Tribulations for thy Name sake , and enabled me patiently to undergo the open Revilings and Infamies cast upon me , both by open , profest ( and secret ) Enemies ; in all which I daily praise thy Name for thy Goodness . Yet thou hast also endued me with the Spirit of Righteous Judgment , Understanding and Zeal for the Glory of thy holy Name and Truth , and hast raised me up in defence of thy Gospel , to vindicate thy Truth and innocent People , who are Lovers of Peace and Union in thy Son Christ Iesus . And now , O Lord , I humbly pray thee , preserve thy Lambs and tender Babes , and open the Eyes and unvail the Understandings of all whom the Enemy has deceived and prejudiced , who are mistaken in their Iudgments , and not guilty of willful Opposition and Hatred ; That they that have not sinned out their day nor become judicially hardened , may yet find a place of Repentance and Mercy , in returning to thee with Humility , true Contrition and Brokenness of Heart , that thou maiest heal their Backslidings , and love them freely . O my God! in these my Labours and Endeavours , as I have eyed thee and thy Counsel , and thou hast been with me , for which I praise thy Name . So I recommend all to thee , to manifest the real intent and end of all , and to plead and justifie my Cause , it being thy own Cause , and the Cause of thy whole Heritage : Amen , Amen , saith my Soul. ADVERTISEMENT . FIrst , Note , That where in pag. 158. of this Treatise , mention is made That G. F 's intention and sence is by another hand spoken to . That and much more is yet reserved in Manuscript against W. R's abusive Books . Secondly , That whereas in pag. 205. it is said , It being now above six Weeks since the Letter was left at Ely , &c. and yet no Answer . — It is now above three Moneths since , and yet no Answer received from F. B. being now ( at the Printing hereof ) towards the latter end of the 11th Moneth , 1682. Thirdly , That this Treatise has been long in the Printer's hands , and not hastened in the Press , because of these Additions in the three last Chapters , to Francis Bugg , Thomas Crisp , John Pennyman and Jeffery Bullock ; for the Answer to William Rogers's 7 th part of his Christian-Quaker , was writ in a short time after it was out . Fourthly , It is some question whether two or three of the Names in pag. 250. be right , i. e. Averset , Snazdale and Tysoeth , by reason of their Names being badly writ in the Certificate sent up . Fifthly , Note , That where in the Postscript , after the Letter to Francis Bugg , pag. 253 , 4. and in his Book also , p. 52. he gives account of a Minister thus , viz. That in the Quarterly-Meeting Book at Hadenham , they shall find a Record , wherein he is recorded out of the Vnity , for not taking his Wife according to the Order of Friends , i. e. not publishing his Intention before the Womens Meetings . Which Account is excepted against upon Friends positively giving a contrary one to me . Let it be farther remarked , that Francis Bugg's pretended Proof appears not from Evidence of the Fact , but is his consequence drawn from the Records . But first , his Consequence appears not only fallacious , but false in Fact , in his restraining the Order of Friends only to the Womens Meetings , which is not consequent to the Record of the Quarterly Meeting , dated , the first of the 10th Moneth , 1675. and cited by F. B. ( p. 61. ) for Proof ; for the extent of that Record is , For the consent of Friends at two Mens Meetings and two Womens Meetings , &c. 2 dly , Neither can his Account be true , if there was not then a Womans Meeting established in that part of the County , but that the complaint of the Monethly Meeting was , That the Person concerned did not publish his Intention above once to the Mens Meeting , and refused to bring the Woman to any Meeting at all , before the time of their Marriage . 3 dly , Since the said Exception was writ , I have met with a Certificate under the Hands of several Persons of Credit , i. e. Phillip Taylor , William Brasier , John Prime , and Jacob Baker , who do confirm the matter excepted against Francis Fugg's said Account ; whereby they declare it to be his false Insinuation , and a manifest misrepresenting of Friends in those parts , and a malicious Falshood . For they affirm , That there was no Womens Meetings established in that part of the County where it fell in course for the said Person to publish his Intention of Marriage ; and that because he refused to bring the Woman to any Meeting at all ( to manifest her consent and intention of Marriage with him ) And his proposing it but once to the Mens Meeting , and that in her absence , before he took her to Wife . This they looked on as an irregular Proceedure and Innovation , and no safe President or Example . For which cause , together with his refusal to give the Monethly Meeting satisfaction for the Irregularity ( as desired ) on complaint thereof to the Quarterly Meeting , a Record was made , according to their Consciences and Care , That they had not Vnity with him in this his SO doing ( as 't is cited by Fr. Bugg himself . Sixthly , Let it be noted , That Francis Bugg is guilty of notorious Falshood and malicious Slander , where he pretends to discover That hypocritical and two-faced Practice of pleading to the Magistrates for Liberty of Conscience , and at the same time using and exercising all Force , Rule and Dominion they are capable to inflict upon their dissenting Brethren , who cannot fall down and cry Hosanna to every Likeness , &c. And the Reason he suggests is , Lest the Ruling Party should be encouraged to introduce a numberless Number of needless Ceremonies , till at length Rome may , if possible , be outdone , pag. 115 , 116. 2d part . Thus like a false informing Judas he has belched out his Lying Insinuations , tending to incense the Magistrate against us . For , 1 st , In the first part I take his Charge [ Hypocritical ] to intend our Applications to the Magistrates for Liberty from Persecution : and then 't is malicious , false and scandalous , and therein he has acted the part of a base Informer against us , for which God ( who knows our sincerity and consistency in our pleading to the Magistrate on this account ) will certainly rebuke his lying malicious Spirit . In the second part , I take his Charge [ Of using all Force , Rule and Dominion , &c. upon dissenting Brethren for not falling down to every Likeness ] to intend that Church-Government , Discipline and Order , and those Ministers concerned therein which he opposeth among the People called Quakers : And then he hath herein most wickedly and falsly informed the Magistrates , 1 st , To render our Applications for Liberty of Conscience of no credit with them , but Hypocritical : 2 dly , To render us guilty of that which we are pleading against , i. e. Exercising Force upon our Brethrens Consciences , and that for not falling down to every Likeness . Oh , horrid Abuse and Slander ! And what lamentable Blindness and gross Absurdity is this Adversary fallen into ! like as if he should thus argue , viz. You plead to the Magistrate for Liberty of Conscience in the free exercise of Religion , from Persecution , Corporal and Pecuniary Punishments on that score . Therefore you are Hypocritical , Two-faced and Inconsistent in your Practice , whilst you exercise a Church Authority , by giving true Spiritual Judgment , Admonition or Censures upon any that dissent or divide from you , or cause Divisions or Offences : Such are the Consequences of his before-cited Charge , considering that he has not proved our Judgment VNJVST , or Advice and Admonition ERRONEOVS or VNCHRISTIAN in any of those things opposed by him ; or our Paper , which he makes his great Proof against us , and Scornfully calls , A Grant and Confirmation by a general Council held at London , Anno 1675. pag. 41. For which he falsly accuseth us of INNOVATIONS , IMPOSITIONS , APOSTACIES , NEW-STAMPED GOVERNMENT , ARBITRARY RVLE , &c. comparing us to the POPES COVNCIL . ( pag. 42 , 46 , &c. ) And then he might as well say , 'T is a great infringement of Liberty of Conscience for a Christian Society to Reprove , Judge or Censure disorderly Walkers under the same Profession . And by the same absurd way of Arguing and shallow Opposition he may as well assume a Power to stop the Mouthes of all Gospel Ministers for exercising their Consciences in that divine Authority that Christ hath given them , To renounce the hidden things of Dishonesty , and to Exhort , Rebuke , Reprove , Admonish , Command , &c. according to their Commission , both in the primitive Times and our Day . Thus we may justly conclude , that a corrupt , defiled , immoral Conscience would have its unchristian Liberty . Seventhly , Some Errors have escaped the Press , in this Treatise , both in Points , Letters and Words , the most material whereof are here noted , which I desire the ingenuous Reader accordingly to Correct ; ( the sense will shew the rest ) wherein I do as I would be done to ; for I examine the Errata's , even of my Adversaries Books , as they are noted , before I answer the Matter . ERRATA . PAge 19. Line 4 , 6. for bear read bare . p 26 l 10 r questioned . p 33 l 24 f mian r main . p 34 l 17 f twining r turning . p 43 l 13 dele there . p 47 l 1 f the r thy p 59 read by laws made in the reign of . p 62 l 3 f tives r tive . p 84 l 20 f bear r bare . p 88 l 16 f justifying r insisting p 144 l 10 r blind zealot is . p 158 l 1 r in the case . p 167 l 9 f it r in . p 209 l 2 f Statutis r Statuti . p 210 l 14 r their names . p 228 l 21 r upon W P's p 233 l 20 , 21 r abusest , scandalizest . p 237 l 3 r the matter . p 252 l 16 f disingenious r disingenuous . p 254 l 10 r horribly . p 262 l 1 r Apostates . p 272 l 14 r rights . p 279 Margent r Like the Postscript of N. C 's Epistle . p 284 l 3 r are under . p 295 l 16 r their Conscientiousness . p 300 l 7 f by r thy . p 310 l 16 r because thereof p 311 l 12 r and of p 315 l 14 r his pretence being , because . p 326 l 17 f herein r therein . The sense will evince the rest of literal fauls , less material . THE END . BOOKS Printed and Sold by A. Sowle at the Crooked-Billet in Holloway-Lane in Shoreditch , 1682. DVe Order of Law and Justice pleaded , against Irregular and Arbitrary Proceedings . By George Whitehead . The Real Quaker a Real Protestant . By G.W. A legal Examination of Abuses of Law. The Religious Assemblies of the People called Quakers vindicated . The Christian-Quaker and his divine Testimony vindicated ; in two parts . By W. Penn and G. Whitehead . An Answer to a foolish Libel , called , The Quakers Opinions . By William Penn. England's present Interest discovered , with honour to the Prince and safety to the People . By W. P. An Epistle to the Churches of Jesus throughout the whole World. By W. P. An Epistle to the Children of Light. W. P. An Address to Protestants ; in two Parts . By W. P. A brief state and examination of Liberty Spiritual . By W. P. An Epistle , containing a solemn Farewell , &c. By W. P. A Mite into the Treasury : or , A Treatise concerning the seven Liberal Arts. By Thomas Lawson . A Testimony against Tything among Christians . By R. Richardson . The Foundation of Tythes shaken . By Thomas Elwood . Tythes ended by Christ. By W. Gibson . The great Case of Tythes once more revived . By Francis Howgill . A Treatise of Oaths , &c. Universal Love. By W. Smith . The Principles of Truth , or a declaration of our Faith , who are called Quakers . An Epistle of Love and good Will to the called and choson of God. By J. Songhurst . An Invitation of Love to all that hunger and thirst after Righteousness . By Isabel Yeomans . A Warning to London in particular . By James Parks . A Warning to England in general . By J. P. A Testimony to the Lords Power and blessed appearance in and amongst Children . A plain Path-way opened to the simple hearted , for the answering all Doubts and Objections , &c. By S. Crisp. A Blast blown out of the North , ecchoing up towards the South , to meet the Cry of their oppressed Brethren . The Lamentable Cry of the Oppressed . H. Smith's Books collected into one Volumn . The Spirit of the Martyrs revived . ☞ A faithful Warning , and Lamentation over England . By William Bingley . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65870-e180 Jude 13 , 14. vers . Notes for div A65870-e720 † A Pope reputed no better than an Atheist , a Prophaner of the holy Scriptures , a Person careless of Religion and Piety ; an Avaritious Corrupt Person , who made great advantage of his impious Indulgencies & Pardons , &c How unjust & impious therefore is our Adversary W R. to rake so many Instancies ( as he hath done ) out of the History of the Council of Trent , of Wicked Popes and their Agents , to compare , brand and scandalize Us or any of our Friends withal , who abhor Popery and all the Popes Corruptions . Notes for div A65870-e3930 † By [ Execute ] I understand minister or put in Practice , and not in the common Law sence of inflicting corporal or pecuniary Punishments ; for that 's not consistent with the Government of a Christian Church . * See Rh● . Annotat. fol. 572. * But I suppose he hath a reserved and other sence for his Distinction between Clergy and Laity here , than the common sence ●nd distinction : 'T is some reflecting reserve no doubt . He may tell his mean-in his next Book . Notes for div A65870-e8220 * I tenderly forbear exposing the Person 's name at present , believing that 't was not by his order or consent that W.R. & F B. have made him such a subject of printed controversie ; as also hoping that he has more charity & tenderness in him than to allow of their malicious Books . Pag. 27. P. 72. P. 26. P. 27. Notes for div A65870-e12380 * As our words are , Accuser , p. 136. * Who must so exercise and proceed in them if no visible man or men be invested with Power from Christ to execute them , or put them in practice ? Pag. 41. pag. 42. Rom 2 8. 1 Cor. 16.16 . 1 Thes 5 12 , 13 , 14. Heb. 13 17. 2 Pet. 3.2 . pag. 45. pag. 45. Notes for div A65870-e17410 Accuser , &c. p. 26 , 27. P. 52. Page 52. This passage W. R. hath Printed divers times over in his Book against himself . p. 55. P. 55. Notes for div A65870-e24850 † Francis Bugg's Proposition implyes a Contradiction ; for if Samuel Cater subscribe the Instrument , he ought not to have his Money by the tenure of it , because he told not his Name . If he do not subscribe it as his judgment , then he also ought to have his Money again , according to F. B's tenet of Christian Liberty , As not seeing it his duty ; ergo he may not , or at least ought not to be compelled to suffer for it . Another contradiction is from the ground of his Law or Canon , viz. the equality in suffering For by his Rule a poor Minister must suffer 20 l when a rich Hearer , whom he ministers to , but 5 s. And he on the apparent sight of the Informer must tell his Name , when the other , but when he is asked it . Oh equal levelling Law ! Are not the children of the world wiser ( looking on us as Levellers ) to make the rich Hearers pay the poor Preachers penalties , as well as they look on them obliged to maintain them , on their own supposition . * Marg. added , Yet I do not limit Persons in this case ; there may be a special occasion to tell Names for the sake of others , but not to make that a general Rule — Friends are to be left free to Gods counsel . * Q. added , If it be not Dog-Latin ? Thy Charge collected . * Query added . I do seriously ask William Rogers , if this Paper of ours , thus Recommended , be sufficient proof of Imposition , and being turned Antichristian ? I desire plain Answer hereunto , in relation to what he has granted for a Recommendation , &c. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mas. and Fem. * Yet I find it not So manifest afterward in thy Book at all . Notes for div A65870-e32550 * And whereunto we have a full Answer in being , in Manuscript , reserved ( about five Years ) in order to pursue and detect that of J. P.'s , if divulged abroad in Print . † As in his opposing Pastors , Teachers , Elders , &c. in our day , and the Spirit to them , and rendring us at inforceing Orders , and setting our selves in the place of the HEIR , &c. And he was Answer'd in his Life time by several of the Servants of Christ w●● withstood his opposition in this matter . * For J. Crook hath given publick Testimony against the Payment of Tythes in this Gospel day , witness his Treatise , i. e. Tythes no Property , &c. † But I must confess that in our publick Assemblies for divine Worship , such postures as bespeak the most Reverence to God and Union among our selves , are most commendable , edifying and exemplary , &c. * N. C 's Epistle . † So the Work of Backsliders and Apostates tends to fit them to hear and sit under the Parish Priests , contrary to the real Christian Quaker ; Witness F. Bugg's Proposition , espoused by him as his own judgment , viz. Things Moral , under the Gospel men may be commanded by the Magistrate , as HEARING is an act purely Moral . A man may be commanded to hear the Gospel preacht , without being forced to give his assent to it . The Light of Nature guides the Magistrate to instruct his Subjects in whatsoever he thinks for their eternal Good. And the Light of Nature obligeth every man to hearken , &c ▪ A man that is only commanded to hear and receive Instruction , is dealt with as a rational Creature , and forced to nothing . The Judgment is still left in himself . [ Thus F. Bugg's De Christiana Libertate , or Liberty of Conscience , pag 91 , 92. ] Whereby he has plainly given away and betray'd the cause of all conscientious Dissenters . For what place is left for Liberty of Conscience to dissent , if the Magistrate may thus enjoyn the Subjects to hear what he thinks is for their eternal Good , and they be thus obliged to hear , when he thinks 't is for their good to hear the Parish Priests ? By this Proposition , when the Magistrate commands Fr. Bugg to his Parish Church and hear the Priest , he is oblig'd so to do by his own Proposition , and reserve his judgment in himself , whether to accept or reject what he hears . Thus he may be in a freedom fitted to act in ALL FORMS . But then let him not esteem himself a Christian Quaker , but another sort of a ( Latitude ) Christian , whose Religion and Principle , before cited , will not oblige him to suffer any more as a Quaker . † So the Work of Backsliders and Apostates tends to fit them to hear and sit under the Parish Priests , contrary to the real Christian Quaker ; Witness F. Bugg's Proposition , espoused by him as his own judgment , viz. Things Moral , under the Gospel men may be commanded by the Magistrate , as HEARING is an act purely Moral . A man may be commanded to hear the Gospel preacht , without being forced to give his assent to it . The Light of Nature guides the Magistrate to instruct his Subjects in whatsoever he thinks for their eternal Good. And the Light of Nature obligeth every man to hearken , &c ▪ A man that is only commanded to hear and receive Instruction , is dealt with as a rational Creature , and forced to nothing . The Judgment is still left in himself . [ Thus F. Bugg's De Christiana Libertate , or Liberty of Conscience , pag 91 , 92. ] Whereby he has plainly given away and betray'd the cause of all conscientious Dissenters . For what place is left for Liberty of Conscience to dissent , if the Magistrate may thus enjoyn the Subjects to hear what he thinks is for their eternal Good , and they be thus obliged to hear , when he thinks 't is for their good to hear the Parish Priests ? By this Proposition , when the Magistrate commands Fr. Bugg to his Parish Church and hear the Priest , he is oblig'd so to do by his own Proposition , and reserve his judgment in himself , whether to accept or reject what he hears . Thus he may be in a freedom fitted to act in ALL FORMS . But then let him not esteem himself a Christian Quaker , but another sort of a ( Latitude ) Christian , whose Religion and Principle , before cited , will not oblige him to suffer any more as a Quaker . * The substance whereof is answered fully before to W. R. * For tho John Perrot placed his opposition to the Putting off the Hat in Prayer very high , as on express Commandment from the Lord God of Heaven , as against a Custom , Romish Tradition , and Triffle in the Apostacy , as in his Paper which Richard Hubberthorn answer'd . Yet he had more smooth and taking Expressions to temper and gloss his matters withal ▪ as , The Spirit of the Lamb is Poor , Low , Humble , Patient , Content , Temperate , Chaste , willing to Suffer , full of Thanks-giving in all things , and of Pity , Mercy , Forgiveness , Love unto all , not holding Prejudice against any — and ready to lay down Life for all . — Now all that will follow the Lamb wheresoever he goeth , must be of this Mind , &c. as in a Paper of John Perrot's . Now here was a more likely shew and resemblance and pretence of Christianity , than these Lofty Scorners do appear in , though he profest greater things than he possest ; his Spirit was not in that Lowliness , nor was he constant with God. His fall should be a warning to many . * But it seems T.C. was one then so called ; and if she was instrumental to induce him to Marry by a Priest , contrary to his Perswasion or Profession , she had also cause to Repent it , and may yet see more cause to Rue it , because of his Apostacy . * First * First Notes for div A65870-e38700 * Their Names I forbear exposing at present to this monstrous Birth they have adopted from Jeffery Bullock . But if they shall again suffer or encourage the reading of any such Unchristian , disingenuous and malicious Books ( or Pamphlets ) as W. R's 7th part , by any of their Party in Friends publick Meeting , ( as I understand , was once done at Chippinham , which was a turbulent , irreverent , and mad Action ) then they will more manifestly deserve to have their Names exposed , both in relation to that , and to Jeffery Bullock and his Books , &c. * That 's a Whimsie ; where proves he that ? Or that the Light of the Moon is Antichristian ? Matth. 13. * N● marvel if Giles Barnardiston's Wife did say that she trembled to hear the Blasphemy that thou heldst , as thou sayest ; Antichrist●s Transfor . pag. 21. * N● marvel if Giles Barnardiston's Wife did say that she trembled to hear the Blasphemy that thou heldst , as thou sayest ; Antichrist●s Transfor . pag. 21. * These precedent words ( except that of his Soul ) are true ; but not the subsequent . * What Scripture hath he that saith His Soul was the Woman's part that dyed ? The Scripture says otherwise ; That 't was according to the Flesh , he was made of the seed of David , Rom. 1.3 . * What Scripture hath he that saith His Soul was the Woman's part that dyed ? The Scripture says otherwise ; That 't was according to the Flesh , he was made of the seed of David , Rom. 1.3 . Isa. 53. Psal. 90.4 , 6 , 9. & 102.11 . & 103.15 . & 144 , 4. See Jo● 7.6 . & 16.22 . Isa. 40.6 James 4.14 . His Concessions manifestly Contradictory to his Doctrine of the Soul's Mortality . Contradictions . 
A70779	----	A treatise of oaths containing several weighty reasons why the people call'd Qvakers refuse to swear : and those confirmed by numerous testimonies out of Gentiles, Jews and Christians, both fathers, doctors and martyrs : presented to the King and great council of England, assembled in Parliament. Penn, William, 1644-1718. 1675 Approx. 317 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 87 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2007-01 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A70779 Wing P1388 ESTC R17219 12599618 ocm 12599618 64138 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A70779) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 64138) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 675:1 or 1675:14) A treatise of oaths containing several weighty reasons why the people call'd Qvakers refuse to swear : and those confirmed by numerous testimonies out of Gentiles, Jews and Christians, both fathers, doctors and martyrs : presented to the King and great council of England, assembled in Parliament. Penn, William, 1644-1718. Richardson, Richard, 1623?-1689. Parker, Alexander, 1628-1689. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [2], 4, [8], 9-166 p. s.n.], [London? : 1675. Signed: "This perform'd in the name and for the service of the people call'd Quakers. William Penn, Richard Richardson." Prefixed to the "Treatise" is an address "To the King and great council of England, assembled in Parliament", subscribed by Alexander Parker, George Whitehead and several others, the signatures ending with the names of Richardson and Penn. Place of imprint suggested by Wing. Errors in paging. Item at reel 1659:3 identified as Wing P1400 (number cancelled). Reproduction of originals in Duke University Library and Harvard University Library. Includes bibliographical references and index. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Doctrines. Oaths. 2005-08 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-02 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-04 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2006-04 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A TREATISE OF OATHS , Containing Several Weighty Reasons why the People call'd QVAKERS refuse to SWEAR : And those Confirmed by Numerous Testimonies out of Gentiles , Jews and CHRISTIANS , both Fathers , Doctors and Martyrs . Presented to the King and Great Council of England , Assembled in PARLIAMENT . Mat. 5.34 . But I say unto you , Swear not at all . Jam. 5.22 . Above all things , my Brethren , Swear not . Jer. 32.10 . Because of Oaths the Land Mourneth . Theognis , He ought to Swear neither this thing nor any thing . Maimonides , It is a great Good for a Man not to Swear at all . Chrysostom , It is not lawful to Swear , neither in a just nor unjust Cause . Printed Anno 1675. TO THE King and Great Council OF ENGLAND , Assembled in PARLIAMENT . The Case of the People call'd QUAKERS relating to OATHS further Represented ; and Recommended to their Consideration , in order to a Speedy and Effectual REDRESS . THe common Benefit of the Free People of England being undoubtedly both the first and greatest Reason for the Ancient , Just & Necessary Constitution of Parliaments ; and being also inform'd that it is your Resolution , to employ this Session to the Redress of Publick Grievances : And since We cannot but repute our selves a Member of this Great Body you represent , by Birth and English Descent ; and are not only involved in the Common Calamities of the Kingdom , but in Particular very cruelly Treated in our Persons and Estates , because we cannot for pure Conscience take any Oath at all ( though we have again and again tender'd our solemn Yea or Nay ; and are most willing to sustain the same Penalty in Case of Lying , that is usually inflicted for Perjury ) To the End we may not be interpreted to decline the Custom out of meer Humour or Evasion ( though our frequent & heavy Sufferings by Fines and tedious Imprisonments , sometimes to Death it self , should sufficiently Vindicate us against any such Incharitable Censure ) WE do , with all due Respect , present you with our Reasons for that Tenderness , and many Testimonies and Pr●sidents in their Defence ; and we entreat you , to express that Care of a Member of your own Civil Body , which Nature and Christianity excite to ; We mean , That it would please you to consider how deeply we have already suffered , in Person and Estate , the Inconveniencies we have daily to encounter , and those Injurious not only to our selves , but others we commerce with , in that both they and we , because of our Tenderness in this Matter , are constantly at the Mercy of such as will Swear any thing to advantage themselves , where they are sure that a Contrary Evidence shall be by Law esteem'd ( however True ) Invalid ; under which Difficulty several of us at this Hour fruitlesly labour : That being sensible of our Calamity , you may please to endeavour , as for others , so for this Grievance , both a Speedy and Effectual Redress ; otherwise , besides ordinary Cases , wherein many of us extraordinarily suffer , we may perhaps prove in this of Oaths the Greatest , if not the Only Sufferers of the Kingdom ; a Cruelty , we hope , you do not design against us . God Almighty , we beseech him with all Sincerity of Heart , incline you to Justice , Mercy and Truth , Amen . London , the 25th of the 3d Moneth , 1675. Subscribed on the behalf of the rest of our Friends by , Alexander Parker , George Whitehead , Stephen Crisp , William Mead , Gerrard Roberts , William Welsh , Samuel Newton , Thomas Heart , John Osgood , James Claypool , Thomas Rudyard , Richard Richardson , & William Penn. A Catalogue of the Authors , Testimonies and Presidents cited in Favour of this Treatise . AESchylus , p. 31. Albertus Magnus , p. 10 , 115. Albingenses , p. 100 , 121. W.C. Albrid . p. 12. Alexander de Ales , p. 115. Alexander ab Alexandro , p. 18. Alexid , p. 34. Alphonsus de Avendano , p. 134. Ambrosius , p. 10 , 68 , 135. Ambrosius Ansbertus , p. 112. Anabaptists , p. 100 , 101. Antiochus Palest . p. 109. Anthelmus Cantuar ▪ p. 120. Tho. Aquinas , p. 115 , 132. Aristophanes , p. 102. Aristoteles , p. 18. Athanasius , p. 50 , 54. Augustinus , p. 10 , 95 , 132 , 133. M. Aurelius Antoninus , p. 36. Ausonius , p. 36. B Bagool , pag. 100. Baptista Folengius , p. 115. Baro●ius , p. 100 , 121. Basil . Magnus , p. 10 , 60 , 100. Basilides , p. 41. J. Bechet , p. 124. Beda , p. 110 , 141. Counc . Berghamsted , p. 111. Bernard , p. 100 , 113 , 115 137 , 144. Beza , p. 102 , 141. Bible folio , printed 1578. p. 144. Bible 4 to . printed 1559. 143. Biblioth vet . patr . p. 116. Blandina , p. 41 , 45. Blastaris , p. 62 , 111. Brugensis , p. 10 , 115. Otho Brunfelfius , p. 114. Beat Bruno , p. 46. Wal. Brute , p. 123. J. Burrel , p. 126. C Cajetan , p. 133 , 135. Caesarius , p. 67. Joac . Camerar ▪ p. 143. Gui. Carmelite , p. 100. Cassiodorus , p. 46 , 108. Castro , p. 100 , 141. Caten . 65. Graec. Patr. p. 108. Cathari , p. 100. Hug. Cardinal . p. 115. Pet. Charron , p. 144 Geff. Chaucer , p. 122. Cheril , p. 33. Chromatius , 10 , 104. Chrysostom , p. 10 , 11 , 17 , 50.70 , 100 , 112 , 120 , 141. Cicero , p. 18 , 33. Clemens Alexandr . p. 15 , 43 , 47. Clemens Roman . p. 58 , 101 , 142. J. Clements , p. 124. Clineas , p. 31 , 62. Qu. Curtius , p. 29. Cyprian , p. 51. Cyril , p. 107. D J. Damascen . pag. 107. Diodorus Siculus , p. 28. Diogenes Laert. p. 33. Druthmarus , p. 114 , 141. E Archiep. Ebur . Egbert , p. 111. J. Edward , p. 124. Epictetus , p. 34. Epiphanius , p. 50 , 67. Erasmus , p. 128. Esseni , p. 37. Eusebius , p. 40 , 41 , 99. Evagrius Scholast . p. 104 , 107. F Jacob Faber , p. 138. Festus ad Lapidem , p. 18. J. Fox Martyrol . pag. 121 , 122 , 123.124 , 125 , 128. G Bp. Gauden , p. 10 , 14 , 30 , 154. Gentian Hervet . p. 48. Gennadius , p. 99 Gloss . Ordin . p. 107 , 115. Hug. Grotius , p. 31 , 34 , 37 , 150. H J.M. Hadingtonian . p. 143. Haimo , p. 112. Hercules , p. 29. Hesiod , p. 29. R. Herbert , p. 124. Hierocles , p. 31. Hilary , p. 50 , 57 Hilary Syracus . p. 100. Huetius , p. 50. Humiliati , p. 100. J. Huss , p. 126. I James on the Fathers , pag. 78. Jansenius , p. 100 , 114. Jerom , p. 11 , 92 , 127 , 136 , 141 , 143. Jews Antiquities , p. 154. Josephus , p. 37 , 136. Justin Martyr , p. 41. Irenaeus , p. 97. Isidorus Pelusiot . p. 104. Isodor . Hispalens . p. 109. Isocrates , p. 32. K Hist . ref . Kirk Scotland , p. 127. L Lactantius , p. 43. Laertius Hermip . p. 30. Libanius , p. 36. Lindenbrogius , p. 18. Lodovicus Pius , p. 148. Lollards , pag. 127. Lotharius , p. 148. Ludulphus , p. 10 , 115 , Luitprandus , p. 158. N. Lyra , p. 106 , 115. Lysander , p. 32. M Maimonides , pag. 37. Menander , p. 33. Maldonat , p. 101. 144. Manichees , p. 100. Marlorat , p. 144. Fra. de Mendoca , p. 136. Archiep. Mentz . p. 111. S. Morland , p. 128. N Grave of Nassou , p. 160 , 161. G. Nazianzen , pag. 42. 64 , Nicodemus's Gospel , p. 59 Nilus , p. 107. G. Nyssen●s , p. 63.141 . O Oecumenius , pag. 119. Olympiodorus , p. 108. Prince of Orange , p. 162. Origen , p. 30 , 49 , 100 , 101. Orthodoxographa . p. 59. P Paschatius Ratbertus , p. 113. Patrini , pag. 100. Pelagians , p. 100 , 101 Persians , p. 28. Philo Judaeus , p. 36 , 38 , 138 , 146. Plato , p. 32. Plinius , p. 18. Plowman's Complaint , p. 121. Plutarch , p. 29 , 32 , 35. Polybius , p. 10 , 18. Polycarpus , p. 40 , 45. Ponticus , p. 41 , 45. Potamicna , p. 42. Jer. of Prague , p. 126. Prateolus , p. 100. Le Pricur , p. 45. Protestants of Piedmont , p. 128. Publicani , p. 100. J. Purrey , p. 124. Pythagoras , p. 30 , 31. Q Quintilian , p. 34 R Rabanus , p. 107 , 115. Raimundus , pag. 37. Reiner . p. 120. Remigius , p. 115. Rhadamanthus , p. 32. Rigaltius , p. 46. Ruffinus , p. 115. Rupertus , p. 115. S Mich. Sadler , pag. 127. Ger. Sagarel , p. 128. Grae. Sages , p. 30. Rob. Sanderson , p. 20 , 101 , 104. W. Sawtree , p. 126. Scapula , p. 102. Scultetus , p. 43 , 46. Scythians , p. 29. Simocat . p. 34. Smaragdus , p. 115 Sociad . p. 30. Socrat. Schol. pag. 51 , 60 , 63 , 71. Solon , p. 30. Lod. Soto Major , p. 144. H. Spelman , p. 111. Spotswood , p. 127. Stobaeus , p. 30 , 34. Swarez , p. 47 , 58 , 100 , 140. W. Swinderby , p. 122. Jer. Taylor , pag. 155. Tertullian , p. 42 , 52 , 100. Gr. Thaumaturgus , p. 51. Theodoret , p. 11. 106. Theognis , p. 30. Theophylact , p. 100 , 113 , 141. W. Thorp , p. 124 , 126. Titelmannus , p. 10. Treatise of Peace , p. 163. Archiep. Triers , p. 111. V Valerius Max. p. 30 , 33. Villerius , p. 143. Vossius , p. 100. J. Usher , p. 100 , 121 , 128 , 152. W Walden , p. 100. Waldenses , p. 100 , 120. Bp. Walton , p. 102. W. White , p. 126. J. Wickliff , p. 121. Wickliffists , p. 101. Widsord , p. 100 Em. Willy , p. 124. X Xenocrates , p. 33 , 15. Xenophon , p. 102. Y Eliz. Young , p. 125. Z Euthymius Zagabonus , p. 126. Some Inducements Offer'd TO Answer this REQVEST , From a Consideration of the Cause and End of an Oath , And those REASONS AND TESTIMONIES , Given by us against the USE and IMPOSITION of it . The GROUND or Reason of Swearing . THis ( we think ) all will agree to have been the Degeneration of Man from primitive Integrity , at what time Yea and Nay were enough ; for when men grew corrupt , they distrusted each other , and had recourse to extraordinary Wayes to awe one another into Truth's-speaking , as a Remedy against Falseness ; else , what need had there been of an Oath , or any Extraordinary Way of Evidence , when every Syllable was freighted with Truth and Integrity ? It had been a meer taking of God's Holy Name in vain : Truth then flowed naturally , and wanted no such Expedient to Extort its Evidence . Thus , * Polybius , though an Heathen , in his Story of the Romans , saith , Among the Ancients Oaths were seldom used in Judicatures themselves ; but when Perfidiousness increased , Oaths increased , or then the Use of them first came in . Basilius Magnus saith , Oaths are an Effect of Sin. Gregorius Nazianzonus in his Dialogue against Swearing , saith , An Oath is nothing else but a certain consumation of Mischiefs . Ambrosius saith , Swearing is only in Condescension to a Defect . Chrysostom saith , An Oath came in when Evils increased , when men appeared unfaithful , when all things became Topsy Turvy . Again , To swear is of the Devil , seeing Christ saith , What is more ( then Yea , &c. ) is of Evil. Swearing took its Beginning for want of Truth or Punctuality . Augustin saith , An Oath is not among good , but Evil Things , and used for the Infirmity of others which is Evil , from which we pray that we may be daily delivered . Chromatius saith , What need we swear , seeing it is unlawful to Lye. Which shows that Lying was the Occasion of Oaths , and by leaving off Lying , Oaths vanquish as unprofitable . Titelmannus saith , that an Oath belongs not to Virtue . Albertus Magnus saith , Swearing is by Indulgence . Ludulphus saith , An Oath was permitted of Infirmity . Burgensis cites Jerome saying , Our Saviour teacheth that an Oath sprung from the Vices of Men. Bp. Gauden also tells us , That the Evils of mens Hearts and Manners , the Jealousies and Distrusts , the Dissimulations and Frauds of many Christians , their Vncharitableness and Insecurities are such , as by their Diseases do make solemn Oaths and judicial Swearing necessary , not ABSOLUTELY ▪ MORALLY or PRECEPTIVELY ; but as a Remedy or Expedient . Jerom ( with many of the Fathers , Chrysostom , Theodoret , and others here omitted , because largly cited hereafter ) make this the Reason why God indulged the Jews in the Use of Swearing , That they were but in the State of Infancy , and that they might be kept from Swearing by false Gods ; which the Scripture is plain in : For thou shalt fear the Lord thy God , and swear by HIS Name ; Ye shall not go after other Gods , for God is a Jealous God , &c. Which shews , that he dispensed with Swearing by his Name , that he might take them off from Swearing by False God's , because they would thereby acknowledge them , and not the True God ; so that Swearing is only better then Idolatry . It will remain that we give our REASONS why we cannot take this Liberty , and Swear , as well as other Men have done , and yet do . I. THe first is drawn from the Cause and Ground of Oaths , viz. Perfidiousness , Distrust and Falshood : God's Injunctions to avoid those hateful Crimes ; The Ability he hath given man to answer his Commands ; and Man's Duty to make that use of God's Gift : For if Swearing came in by Perfidiousness , Distrust , Dissimulation and Falshood , it is a most just Consequence that it ought to go out with them ; or that as the Rise and Increasing of those Evils were the Rise and Increasing of Oaths ; so the Decreasing and Extirpation of those Evils should be the Decreasing and Abolishing of Oaths ; otherwise there would be no Truth in the Rule of Contraries , nor Reason in that ancient Maxim , Cessante ratione Legis cessat lex ; That the Ceasing of the Reason of the Law is the Cessation of the Law : Expedients are no longer useful then to obtain what they are designed to . Means are swallowed up of their Ends ; Diseased Men only want Remedies , and Lame Men Crutches ; Honesty needs neither Whip nor Spur , She is Security for her self ; and Men of Virtue will speak Truth without Extortings ; for Oaths are a sort of Racks to the Mind , altogether useless where Integrity swayes . This we presume no man of Reason will deny , viz. That Swearing came in , and ought to go out with Perfidiousness ; and we hope it will be as easie to grant , at least it will be very easie to prove , That God hath frequently , both by Prophets and Apostles , reproved men for such Impieties , and strictly required Truth and Righteousness ; as , Isa . 59 , 3 , 4. Jer. 9.3 , 5. Rom. 12.19 . Gal. 5.19 , 20 , 21. Col. 3 8 , 9 , 10. Josh . 24.14 . 1 Sam. 12.24 . 1 King. 2.4 . Eph. 4.25 . and by abundance of other Places in Holy Scripture . And that God should enjoyn man any thing that he hath not impowered him to perform , is unworthy of any man acknowledging a God , so much as to conceive . It is true , that the unprofitable Servant in the Parable is represented to entertain so blasphemous a Thought of his Maker , that he was so hard a Master , as to reap where he did not sow ; but the same Parable also acquaints us of the dreadful Consequence of that Presumption : The Prophet Micha preached another Doctrine , The Lord hath shewed thee , O Man , what is good : and what doth the Lord require of thee , but to do Justly , to love Mercy , and to walk Humbly with thy God ? For this End hath the Grace of God appeared unto all Men , as speaks the Apostle Paul to Titus , that they should be taught to deny Vngodliness and Wor●dly Lusts , which entering & over-running the World , made way among other Expedients for that of Oaths ; so that to live that Life which needs No Oath , man is both requir'd and impower'd : And as it is only his Fault and Condemnation , if he doth not ; so certainly there can be no Obligation upon him who liveth that Life of Truth and Intetegrity to perpetuate that which rose , and therefore ought to fall with Falshood and Perfidiousness : the Reason of the thing it self excuses him ; for , he that fears Untruth , needs not swear , because he will not lye , to prevent which men exact Swearing : And he that doth not fear telling Untruth , what is his Oath worth ? He that makes no Conscience of that Law that forbids Lying , will he make any Conscience of Forswearing ? Veracity is the best Security ; and Truth speaking the Noblest Tye and Firmest Testimony that can be given . This we declare to you to be both our Judgment and Attainment ; We speak not Boastingly , but with Humility before the Great Lord of Heaven and Earth , to whose alone Power we do unanimously asscribe the Honour : He hath taught us to speak the Truth , the whole Truth , and nothing but the Truth , as plainly and readily without an Oath as with an Oath , and to abhor Lying as much as Perjury ; so that for us to swear , were to take his Holy Name in vain : Nor are we therein singular ; for that not only Christian Fathers , Mar - and Doctors , but also Jews and Heathens have had this Sense of the Rise and Use of Oaths , as will hereafter fully appear . II. Our second Reason , why we refuse to comply with this Custom , and our Superiours ought not to impose it , is this , It would Gratifie Distrusts , Humor Jealousies , and Subject Truth , and those that love it , to the same Checks , Curbs and Preventions that have been invented against Fraud ; whereby the Honour of a Nobler Profession , the Power of a veracious Example , and the just Difference that ought to be made betwixt Trustiness and Diffidence , Integrity and Perfidiousness , are utterly lost ▪ How is is possible for men to recover that ancient Confidence that good men reposed in one another , if some don't lead the Way , and hold forth to the World a Principle and Conversation beyond the Necessity of such extraordinary Expedients ? At present People lie all in a Heap ; and the Greatest Truth finds no more Favour then the greatest Fraud ; Fidelity must wear the Shackles worldly Prudence hath made against the Evil Consequences of Couzennage , and subject her self to the Customs brought up through Fraud , or go to Gaol . Be pleased to consider , that Trustiness did not all at once quit the World , nor will it return universally in the Twinkle of an Eye ; Things must be allowed their Time for Rise , Progress and Perfection : And if ever you would see the World planted with Primitive Simplicity and Faithfulness , rather cherish then make men Sufferers for Refusing to Swear , especially if they offer the same Caution to the Law with him that will swear . We dare not Swear because we dare not Lye , and that it may appear to the World , that we can speak the Truth upon easier Terms then an Oath : For us then to be forc'd to swear , is to make us do a needless thing , or to suspect our own Honesty . The first we dare not , because , as we have said , it is to take God's Name in vain ; and we have no Reason to distrust our selves , being no wayes conscious of fraudulent Purposes : Why then should we swear ? But much rather , why should we be imposed upon ? It is a Saying asscribed to Solon , That a good man should have that Repute as not to need an Oath ; that it is a Diminution to his Credit to be put to Swear . It becomes not an Evangelical Man to Swear , was a primitive Axiom ; but more of that anon : In the mean while please to remember , you have a Practice among you , to exempt your Lords in several Cases , placing the Value of an Oath in their bare Avouchment upon their Honour , supposing that men of those Titles should have so much Worth , as that their Word might be of equal Force with a Common Man's Oath : And if you will please to understand Honour in the Sense of the most ancient and best of Philosophers , to wit , VIRTVE , your own Custom gives Authority to our Reason , & makes you to say with us , That Virtue needs not Swear , much less have Oaths imposed upon her , to tell Truth , the only Use of Oaths . It was Evangelically spoaken of Clemens Alexandrinus , That a Good Life is a firm Oath ; which was memorably verified by the Judges of Athens , who , though Heathens , forbad the Tendering of Xenocrates an Oath , because of their great Opinion of his Integrity , which was Three Hundred Years before Christ came in the Flesh . III. Our third Reason for Non conformity to your Custom is , the Fear we have , lest by Complying we should be guilty of Rebellion against the Discoveries God hath made to our Souls of his ancient holy Way of Truth ; & consequently of concealing his Goodness to us , and depriving him of that Glory & the World of that Advantage this honest Testimony may bring to him & them . He has redeem'd us from Fraud ; 'T is he only that hath begotten this Conscientiousness in us ; and we dare not put this Light under a Bushel , neither can we deny his Work , or him to have the Honour of it . We intreat you , take this Tenderness of ours into Christian Consideration . IV. Oaths have in great measure lost of the Reason of their primitive Institution , since they have not that Awful Influence which was and only can be a Pretence for using them ; on the contrary , they are become the familiar parts of Discourse , and help to make up a great share of the A la mode Conversation : and those who decline their Company , or reprove their Practice , are to go for a sort of Nice and squ●amish Conscienc'd Men. These Swear without Fear or Wit , yet would be thought Witty in Swearing , Fearless they can't : Some are curious in their Impiety ; Old Oaths are too dull for men of their Invention , who almost shift Oaths with their Fashions : Nay , the most judicial Oaths are commonly administred and taken with so little Reverence and Devotion ( to say nothing of the Perjuries , that through Ignorance or Design , are too frequently committed ) that we can't but cry out , Oh the great Depravity that is in the World ! How low is Man faln from the primitive Rule of Life ? Well may the Prophet's Complaint be ours , for , If ever Land mourned because of OATHS , with great Sadness we say it , this doth . And what more effectual Remedy can any People propose against the notorious Abuse and evil Consequence of Swearing , then Truth-speaking ? for those that dare not Lye , need not Swear ; and they that make no Conscience of Lying , do not much fear an Oath , at least their Consciences are very crazy in taking it . This only Reason , were we destitute of all other Allegations , would be a strong Disswasive from Swearing ; for we hold God's Honour , and our Profession greatly concern'd to prove to so False an Age , that there is a People who are so far from vain and false Swearing , that they dare not swear the Truth ; but whose Yea and Nay shall weigh against other mens Oaths , and that with a free Offer of sustaining double Punishment in case of Miscarriage . Expedients may last a while , but TRVTH only shall have the Honour of conquering Falshood , and Virtue will and must be greater then an OATH . V. The Omnipresency of God rightly understood , shows the Uselesness of an Oath , and is with us a good Argument against Swearing ; for what need is there of that Man's being aw'd into true Evidence by such sort of Attestations and Imprecations as make up the common Form of Oaths , who knows God to be always present to reside and preside in his Soul , according to that New and Everlasting Covenant which he hath made , that his People should be his Temple , that he would dwell IN them , and walk IN them . Did the Children of men know the Power , Glory and Majesty of God , WHOM the Apostle preacht NIGH to the Athenians , and declared to the Ephesians to be Father of all , above all , through all and IN THEM ALL , there would be no Oaths , and but few Words , and those utter'd with Reverence and Truth . VI. We do not find that Oaths answer this part of the End for which they are imposed , viz. To convince those for whose sakes they are taken , of the Weight and Truth of a Man's Testimony by Force of God's Witness joyn'd therewith : For they don't behold God's concurring Witness by such an Assistance or Avenge of that Party , as the Truth or Falshood of his Testimony deserveth ; for the Judgments of God are secret , and rarely so publickly seen to Men , perhaps once in an Age , that he should give any memorable Discovery of his good Will or Displeasure in such a Case ; but whenever he doth it , it is not at Man's Appointment : And it is an evident Sign that God approveth not of that sort of Invocation , because he doth not answer them that invoke him , according to their Wish ; as neither did he in the old Law or Custom of Combating appear on his side that had the better Title or Cause , as he promised in the Law of Jealousie , that their Thigh should rot , and their Belly swell , &c. VII . We look upon it to be no less then a presumtuous Tempting of God , To summon him as a Witness , not only to our Terrene , but trivial Businesses ; such as we should doubtless account it an high Indignity alwaies to solicit an Earthly Prince to give his Attendence about . What! Make God , the Great God of Heaven and Earth our Caution in worldly Controversies , as if we would bind him to obtain our own Ends ? It is to make too bold with him , and to carry an undue Distance in our Minds towards him that made us ; An Irreverence we can by no means away with , and upon which Chrysostom is most sharp , as will be seen anon . Besides it is vain and insolent to think that a man when he pleaseth , can make the Great God of Heaven a Witness or a Judge in any matter to appear by some signal Approbation or Judgment , to help or forsake him , as the Truth or Falseness of his Oath requires , when he saith , So help me God. VIII . Besides what we have hitherto urged in Defence of our selves against the Substance of the Oath , we justly except against the Form of it ( which further adds to its Unlawfulness , and consequently to our Vindication ) as by the Contents and kissing of the Book ; Swearing by a Sign , being Heathenish or Jewish . For the Romans held a Stone , and said , If I deceive wittingly then let Diespiter cast me out of my Goods , as I this Stone : The Heroes swore by lifting up of the Scepter : Caesar swore by his Head , his House , that is , consecrated them to the Wrath of God , if he wittingly deceived , &c. The manner of the Jews is from Gen. 14.22 . that Abraham lift up his hand to God , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , If , &c. putting the Hand under the Thigh , on the Head ; passing betwixt Beasts divided , as God did to Abraham , &c. see more in Lapid . Sophoc . in Antiq. v. 270. Scoliast . Baptist . Hansen of passing through Fire , swearing by the right Hand , &c. The Use of So help me God , we find from the Law of the Almans , of King Clotharius : The laying on of three Fingers above the Book is to signifie the Trinity ; the Thumb and the little Finger under the Book , are to signifie the Damnation of Body and Soul , if they forswear , So help me God. Further be pleased to consider that the English Custom has very much overgone English Law in this Business of Oaths ; they were anciently but solemn Attestations , As the Lord liveth , &c. which are now improv'd to Imprecations , So help me God and the Contents of this Book : Though it was ●o of old at Combat ; but that concerns not our Case . For the Kissing of the Book , that is also Novil : Indeed after they rise from solemn Attestations to Imprecations , the Law required a Sight and Touch of the Book ; The Saxon Jurors were Sacratenentes ; In the first Norman Times it was Sacris tactis ; and in later Writs , Evangeliis tactis ; nay , the Priest's Hand was on his Breast ( in Matthew Paris ) not upon the Book . However Jew and Gentile , Superstition and Ceremony , have made up the present Form of Oaths , which the true Christian-man neither wants , nor we conceive , ought to perform ; much less impose where Tenderness by sober Consciences is pleaded , and equal Caution offer'd to the Law for the Integrity of Yea and Nay . IX . But were we also destitute of this Plea , and the usual Oaths of our Country the most inoffensively form'd , and best penn'd that ever any were , we have both the Example and Precept of our Lord and Saviour , Jesus Christ , to oppose to any such Practice ; for in all that History delivered to us by the four Evangelists , we never read him to have used any further Asseveration then what in English amounts to Verely , Verely , or Truly , Truly , I say unto you : Thus by his Example exciting us the more readily to obey his express Prohibition of Swearing , Mat. 5.33 , 34 , 35 , 36 , 37. which runs thus , Again , Ye have heard that it has been said by them of old time , Thou shalt not forswear thy self , but shalt perform unto the Lord thine Oathes ; but I say unto you , SWEAR NOT AT ALL ; neither by Heaven , for it is God's Throne ; nor by the Earth , for it is his Footstool ; neither by Jerusalem , for it is the City of the great King ; neither shalt thou swear by thy Head , because thou ca●st not make one Hair white or black ; but let your Word be YEA , YEA ; NAY , NAY ; for whatsoever is MORE then THESE cometh OF EVIL . He here prohibits even the lesser Oaths , as They thought them that reverenced Swearing by the Name of the Lord , which in old time he suffer'd by reason of the Falseness of their Hearts , and great Pronness to Idols ; even as Moses permitted them to put away their Wives , which in the precedent Verse also is disallowed by Christ , though with the Exception of Fornication ; but Swearing without any Exception : He doth not say , Swear not except before a Magistrate ( though he says , Put not away thy Wife , except for the Cause of Fornication ) but SWEAR NOT AT ALL : why ? because it is OF EVIL ; which reason reaches the Oaths taken before Magistrates , as well as other Oaths ; for Distrust & Unfaithfulness are the Cause of one as well as the other : And there is equal Reason in that respect , that a Master should swear in private to his Servant at his Entrance , that he will pay him his Wages , as that the Servant should swear in publick to a Magistrate , that at his Departure his Master would not pay him his Wages ; both which Oaths the Certainty of their Words , their Yea being Yea , and their Nay being Nay , makes vain and superfluous . Obj. We are not unsensible of the common Objection that is made against this Allegation of our Master's Command , That he only prohibited Vain Oaths in Communication : But if the words of the Text and Context be consider'd , every Oath will be proved Vain and Vnlawful ; for Christ's Prohibition was not a meer Repetition of what was forbidden under the Law , but what the Law allowed , as Bp. Sanderson well observeth ; It was not needful that Christ should forbid what was forbidden in it self , or was alwayes Vnlawful , which vain Swearing was and is by the third Commandment , Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain ; therefore Christ exceded the Prohibition of the Law : And the whole Chapter is a Demonstration of a more excellent Righteousness then that which either needed or used Oaths ; for Christ brings Adultery from the Act to the Thought ; in lieu of Revenge he commands Suffering , and extends Charity not only to Friends , but Enemies ; so in the Place controverted , in the room of such Oaths & Vows as ought to be perform'd unto the Lord , he introduces Yea and Nay , with a most absolute SWEAR NOT AT ALL. This was the Advance he made in his excellent Sermon upon the Mount ; he wound up things to an higher pitch of Sanctity then under the Law , or the childish State of the Jews could receive . Again , saith he , Ye have heard of old time , thou shalt not Forswear thy self , but shalt perform unto the Lord thine Oaths ; but I say unto you , SWEAR NOT AT ALL ; as plain , general and emphatical a Prohibition as can be found in Holy Scripture . However , those Persons that usually advocate for the Continuance of Oaths under the Gospel , tell us , it is not a general Prohibition , but is limited to Swearing by Creatures , either by Heaven , Earth , Jerusalem or Head , &c. VVhich is wholy inconsistent with the Scope of the Place , as we shall make appear from these Four Considerations : 1 st , The Prohibition reaches as well to serious as vain Oaths , such as men made , if they swore at all , and ought to make to God only ; for to him alone should they perform them , and are they accountable for them : These very allowed Oaths of Old Time , are the first prohibited by Jesus Christ ; It was said of Old , thou shalt not Forswear thy self ; but I say , SWEAR NOT AT ALL. 'T is true , it is not particularized what Oaths they were to keep of old ; but in general Terms , that they were not to Forswear themselves ; and it is clear that God enjoyned them that would Swear , that they should only Swear by his Name . Now what can be hence inferred more evidently , then that men ought not to swear those Oaths under the Gospel , which they might swear , and ought not to forswear , but to perform unto the Lord in the Law. 2 dly , Christ himself gives the Explanation of his own Words , Chap. 23.16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21 , 22. where he teacheth us , That he that swears by the Temple , swears by it , and by him that dwells therein ; and he that shall swear by Heaven , swears by the Throne of God , and by him that sits thereon : So that he that swears by the Head , swears by him that made it : and he that swears by the Earth , swears by him that created it ; which leaves no room for the Objection , for it is as if Christ should have said , I not only command you not to Forswear , but perform , as it was said to them of old time ; but I charge you , NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL : I mean , not only that you should not swear by God , and those Oaths that the Pharisees account binding ; but also that you should not so much as swear by those lesser Oaths , as they esteem them , and which they are wont to swear by ; for they are not less nor more allowable , in that they that swear by them , swear by him that is the Author and Maker of them : wherefore being of the same Nature with the other , I forbid you to swear by them as well as by those Oaths that were of old time made , and ought not to be broak , but perform'd unto the Lord ; for this is one of my great Commandments , which they must keep that will be my Disciples , that is to say , SWEAR NOT AT ALL. Our 3 d Inducement to believe this to have been the Intention of our Lord Jesus Christ , is the concurrent Testimony of the Apostle James , which is not only a Repetition of his Master's Doctrine , but an Addition and Illustration , we hope sufficient to determin the present Question with every unprejudic'd Reader ; But above all things , my Brethren ( saith he ) swear not ; which runs parallel with Swear not at all : The Negative is as general & forcible . He proceeds , neither by Heaven , neither by the Earth ; Words of equal Import with the latter part of Christ's Prohibition : and as if he had foreseen the Cavils of our Swearing Adversaries , he adds , neither by any other Oath ; which though as clear as the Sun , if yet for their last shift they should tell us , that he only meant any other Oath of that kind , not that he prohibited Swearing by the Name of the Lord , it will not do their Business ; for that Christ hath already assured us , Whosoever swears by Heaven , swears by him that sits thereon ; and the very next words show that it was not his Design only to prohibit vain , but plainly to exclude all Swearing , But let your Yea be Yea , and your Nay , Nay , lest ye fall into Condemnation ; else why had he not said , but you may swear by the Name of God before a Magistrate ? Why must Neither by any other Oath be added after such a plain Prohibition , as , My Brethren , Above all things Swear not ? And why must Yea and Nay be substituted in the room of an Oath , if it was yet intended by the Apostle , that Christians might rise higher in their Evidence then a bare Affirming or Denying ? that is , Though their Yea be never so truly Yea , and their Nay never so sincerely Nay , or the very Truth of the Matter be spoaken , which is the Import of the Words ; yet that they ought to swear . What is this but to contradict the natural Tendency of the Command of Christ and his Apostles ? which is plainly this ; If your Yea be Yea , it is enough ; if your Nay be Nay , it is sufficient ; for Christians ought not to swear , if they do , they fall into Condemnation , in that they break their Master's Command , who hath told them , that Whatsoever is more then Yea or Nay , cometh of Evil , which is the Ground of all Oaths ; for they ought to mean so simply and honestly in what they say , as that they should never need to swear in order to tell the Truth . Our 4 th and last Consideration , and that which to us seemeth of great Moment to clear up our Lord and Saviour's sense , and rescue the Passage from the Violence of Objectors , is this Clause , For whatsoever is MORE then Yea , Yea , and Nay , Nay , cometh of Evil. This cannot be intended of more Words then Yea , Yea , and Nay , Nay , provided they are not of an higher Strain , but of the same Degree of Speach importing a plain Assertion or Denyal of a thing ; for it is not the Number , but Nature of the Words spoaken , that is here prohibited : Nor can it be only understood of Perjury ; for every body knows that to be evil in it self , which is more then that which cometh OF , or because of Evil : Therefore ▪ it must be understood as well of Swearing , as of Forswearing , which is not Evil it self , yet cometh of , or by Reason of Evil in the World : Nor is there any thing more then Yea and Nay besides Perjury , which can be intended , but an Oath ; and therefore that was intended . Christ doth not only prohibit Evil it self , but that which is Evil by Superfluity to Evangelical Sincerity , and that Swearing is ( be it of what sort it will ) wherever Yea is Yea , and Nay is Nay . In short , If what is More then Yea and Nay , cometh of Evil ; then because any Swearing , as well as Forswearing , is more then Yea and Nay ; it follows , that any Swearing cometh of Evil , and therefore ought to be rejected of Christians . Nor will our English Translation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shelter our Objectors : For , Communication doth not exclude those many Cases that require Evidences among men , no nor any the least Action of Man's Life ; on the contrary , they have a great Place in Human Communication , which is comprehensive of the various Discourses and Transactions of a Man's Life , as 2 Kings 9.11 . 2 Sam. 3.17 . Eph. 4.29 . Col. 3.8 . 1 Cor. 15.33 . It is a word of the same Extent with Conversation , which takes in all that can happen between man and man in this World : Thus the Psalmist , To him that ordereth his Conversation aright , Psalm 50.23 . So the Apostle , Let your Conversation be as becomes the Gospel , Phil. 1.27 . Besides , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be rendred Word , as in Joh. 1.1 . and the Italian and French Translations have it , Let your Word be Yea , Yea ; Nay , Nay ; as much as if Christ had said , As I do not only condemn the Act for Adultery , which the Law did , but also the Conception of the Mind ; and not only Murder , but Revenge likewise ; so I do not only condemn Forswearing , which is done to my hand in the Law of God , but prohibit Swearing at all ; for I make that to be Unlawful , which the Law doth not call Unlawful : Therefore when your Evidence is called for , Swear not at all , but let your Word be Yea , Yea , and Nay , Nay ; that is , Do not speak Untruth ; for that is Evil : Don't Swear ; for that comes of Evil. To conclude ; People swear to the End they may speak Truth ; Christ would have men speak Truth , to the End they might not swear : he would not have his Followers upon such base Reserves , but their Word to carry the Weight of an Oath in it ; that as others ought not to be guilty of Perjury , Christians ought not to be guilty of Lying : For such is the Advance from Moses to Christ , Jew to Christian , that as the Christian needs not the Jew's Curb , so his Lye is greater then the Jew's Perjury , because his Yea or Nay ought to be of more Value then the other's Oath . X. And lastly ; Besides these express Prohibitions , Swearing is forbidden by the very Nature of Christianity , and unworthy of him that is the Author of it , who came not to implant so imperfect a Religion , as that which needed Oaths , or should leave Fraud , the Ground of Swearing , unextirpated ; but to promulgate that Gospel which retrives ancient Sincerity , builds up Waste Places , restores those Breaches Oaths entred at , and leads into the Ancient Holy Paths of Integrity they never trod in : He is that Powerful Lord , which cureth the Diseases of all them that come unto him , and Mystical Serpent exalted , that relieves all that believingly look up to him : His Office is to make an End of Sin , that made way for Swearing , and introduce that Everlasting Righteousness which never needs it ; The Religion he taught , is no less then Regeneration and Perfection ; such Veracity as hath not the least Wavering ; Sincerity throughout , that it might not only exceed the Righteousness of the Swearing Jews , but that Law which permitted it till the Times of Restitution , which he brought to the Degenerated World , who said , Swear not at all ; for the Law that permitted Oaths ; was given by Moses ; but Grace and Truth , that ends them , came by Jesus Christ , who therefore prohibits them . And not only is this Gospel of Christ , or the Holy Religion he taught , of so pure and excellent a Nature ; but those who will be his Disciples , are oblieged to obey it , insomuch that he himself hath said , If ye love me , keep my Commandments ; and if ye keep my Commandments , ye shall abide in my Love. Again , Ye are my Friends , if ye do whatsoever I command you : If any man will come after me , let him deny himself , and take up his Cross , and follow me : For I say unto you , that except your Righteousness shall exceed the Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees , ye shall in no Case enter the Kingdom of Heaven : Be ye therefore Perfect , even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect . These are the weighty Sayings of our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ ; and certainly , he who breaks not the least Commandment ( forbidden Vers . 19. ) who can Suffer rather then Revenge , love Enemies , and be perfect as his Heavenly Father is perfect , is above the Obligation of an Oath unto Truth-speaking . His Disciples preacht not another Gospel then their Master's , who prayed , that those who believed might be sanctified THROUGHOUT , in Body , Soul and Spirit , which is a perfect Removal of the Ground of Swearing ; and they were exhorted to press after the Mark of the Price of this High and Holy Calling , until they should all come unto a perfect Man , unto the Measure of the Stature of the Fulness of Christ Jesus : For even hereunto ( saith Peter ) were ye called , because Christ also suffered for us , leaving us an Example , that ye should follow his Steps , who did no Sin , neither was Guile found in his Mouth : And saith John , As he is , so are we in this World. If No Guile be found in our Mouths , then No Oaths ; for they came because of Guile : And if we ought to resemble him in this World , then must our Communication be Yea , Yea , and Nay , Nay ; that is , we must live the Life of Truth , and speak the Words of Truth , which ought to be of greater Force then Oaths , that come of Evil. If the Righteousness of the Law ought to be fulfilled in us , we ought not to swear , because we ought to be so Righteous as not to Lye. This is Evangelical ; for as he that conceives not a foul or revengeful Thought , need not to purge himself of Adultery and Murder : Neither is there any Reason , that man should purge himself of Lying by Sweating , that doth not so much as countenance an untrue Thought . The Language of the same Apostle to the Ephesians further explains this Evangelical Evidence , But ye have not so learned Christ , if so be that ye have heard him , & have been taught by him , as the Truth is in Jesus ; That ye put off concerning the former Conversation the Old Man , which is Corrupt , according to the Deceitful Lusts , & be renewed in the Spirit of your Mind , & that you put on the New Man , which after God is created in Righteousness and true Holiness : Wherefore PVTTING AWAY LYING , SPEAK EVERY MAN TRVTH with his Neighbour : Beyond which , there can be no Assurance given or desired . And if Christians ought never to Lye , it is most certain they need never to Swear ; for Swearing is built upon Lying ; Take away Lying , and there remains no more Ground for Swearing ; Truth-speaking comes in the room thereof : And this not only the Christian-Doctrine teaches and requires ; but Christ , the blessed Author of it , is ready to work in the Hearts of the Children of Men , would they but come and learn of him , who is Meek , Lowly , filled with Grace and Truth . And we must needs say , It is a shameful thing , and very Dishonourable to the Christian-Religion , that those who pretend themselves to be the Followers of Christ , for so true Christians ought to be , should so degenerate from his Example and Doctrine as to want and use scarcing Asseverations , dispenced with in some of the weakest Times of Knowledge , and such horrible Imprecations ( never known to ancient Jews and Christians ) to ascertain one another of their Faith and Truth : Religion must needs have suffered a great Ebb , and Christianity a fearful Ecclips since those brighter Ages of its Profession : For Bishop Gauden himself , in his Discourse of Oaths , confesses , That the ancient Christians were so strict and exact , that there was no need of an Oath among them ; yea , they so kept up the Sanctity and Credit of their Profession among Vnbelievers , that it was Security enough in all Cases to say , Christianus sum , I am a Christian . But to fortifie what we have hitherto urged in Defence of our Judgment and Practice ; and to the End it may more fully appear , that our Tenderness in this great Case of Oaths comes not from any Sower , Sullen or Superstitious Humor , or that we would trouble the World with any New fangled Opinion , we shall produce the concurrent Testimonies of several Famous and Good Men for above these Two Thousand Years , among Gentiles , Jews and Christians , enough to make an Occumenical Council ; We shall cite them out of the best Editions we have been able to procure , and as truly and punctually as we can render them , digested in Order of Time. Memorable TESTIMONIES against Swearing , collected out of the Writings of Gentiles , Jews & Christians ; some of which were deliver'd to the World several Ages before Swear not at all was writ by Matthew , or spoaken by Christ ; which makes Swearing , but especially Punishing for not Swearing , among Christians , so much the more Disallowable . The Whole publisht not only in Favour of our Cause ; but for the Instruction of the World , and to their Just Honour that said & writ them , as durable Monuments of their Virtue . I. The Sayings of the Gentiles or Heathens , in Dislike of Oaths . Our two first Testimonies shall be the Practice of two great People , the Persians and Scythian : . Diodorus Siculus , lib. 16. I. AMong the Persians , saith Diodorus Siculus , Giving the Right Hand was the Token of Truth-speaking : He that did it Deceitfully , was counted more Detestable then if he had Sworn . Which plainly implyes , that Swearing was Detested among them , as well as that they needed not to Swear , who so much used Truth-speaking . Quint. Curt. in vit . Alex. II. The Scythians , as it is reported by Q. Curtius , in their Conference with Alexander , upon Occasion of an expected Security , told him , Think not that the Scythians confirm their Friendship by Oath ; They Swear by keeping their Word . Which is not only a Proof of their Disuse of Common Oaths , but Swearing at all , even in Matters of greatest Importance . Plutarch Rom. Quest . 28. III. So Religious was Hercules , saith Plutarch , that he never swore but once . If it was Religiously done to swear but once in a Man's Life , it had been more Religiously done not to swear at all . How just and severe a Censure is this out of an Heathen's Mouth upon the Practice of Dissolute Christians ? Hesiod Theogon . p. 88. IV. Hesiod in his Theogonia places an Oath amongst the Brood of Contention ; An Oath , saith he , greatly hurts men . Again presently , An Oath goes with corrupt Judgments ; or an Oath flyes away together with cotrupt Judgments , that is , when Justice appears among men , Oaths vanish , as his Scope in that place shews . Seciad . in Stob. 28. V. It was one part of the Doctrine of the Seven Sages , so famous in Greece , That men ought not to Swear . Stob. Serm. 3. VI. Solon , the famous Law-giver of Athens , and one of those Seven Sages , exhorted the People to observe Honesty more strictly then an Oath . As if he had said , Honesty is to be preferred before Swearing , as another Saying of his imports , A good Man should have that Repute , as not to need an Oath ; it is a Diminution to his Credit to be put to Swear , Bp. Gaud. of Oaths , p. 41. Theognis ver . 660. VII . Theognis , the Greek Poet , writing of a Person Swearing , saith , Neither ought he to swear this or any thing : This Thing or Swearing ( it self ) shall not be . What is this less then , Swear not at all ? Valer. Max. lib. 8. cap. 18. Laert. Hermip . & Orig. contr . Cels . VIII . Pythagoras , a Grave and Virtuous Person , being earnestly intreated of the Crotonian-Senators for his Advice in things relating to the Government , did in his ●ra●ion , among other Excellent Sentences , with more then ordinary Emphasis , lay this down in the Nature of a Maxim , Let no man attest God by an Oath , though in Courts of Judicature ; but use to speak such things , as that he may be credited without an Oath . H. Grot. on Mat. 5.34 . IX . Clineas , a Just Greek , and Follower of Pythagoras , out of Love to Truth , and Respect he bore his Master's Doctrine , that injoyned him to fear and shun an Oath , chose to pay Three Talents , which amount to about Three Hundred Pound , rather then he would take any Oath : Whose Example Basilius Magnus upbraided the Christians of his Time with , that were then learning to Swear . Hierocles Comment in Carm. Pythag. p. 28. X. Hierocles testifies , That Pythagoras , in enjoyning them to revere an Oath , not only prohibits Forswearing , but requires them also to abstain from Swearing . And Aeshilus makes a sincere Beckon to a Matter a firm Oath . Stobaus Serm. 114. XI . Socrates , that worthy Gentile , and great Promoter of Virtue among the Athenians , among many Excellent Sentences delivered this , That Good Men must let the World see , how that their Manners or Dealings are more firm then an Oath . Which both proves that he saw a more Excellent Righteousness then Swearing Truth it self , and believed it attainable ; for he manifestly exhorts Good Men to that Integrity , which is a greater Caution then an Oath . He was put to Death for testifying against the Heathen Idols , acknowledging one only God. Plut. in Lacon . Epoph . XII . Lysander , the great Spartan Captain ; thought an Oath of so little Value in comparison of Truth , that he bestowed this contemptuous Saying upon Swearing , Children are to be deceived with T●yes , and Men with Oaths . Implying , that Sincerity is a greater Security then an Oath . Isocr . ad Demon. XIII . Isocrates , a Greek Orator , in his Oration to Demonicum , advises , Not to take an Oath for Money Matters . Also he teaches , That Good Men should shew themselves more credible then an Oath . Plat. de Leg. 12. XIV . Plato ( call'd Divine ) forbids Swearing in solemn Cases , That none swear himself ; That none require an Oath of another . He speaks there , how Rhadamanthus brought in Swearing by the Gods ; but that his Art therein was not agreeable to that Time ( it seems he accounted it an Art of Policy ) But that in all Actions or Causes , Laws which are made with Understanding , should take away Swearing from both Adversaries . For ( saith he ) it is an Horrible Thing , that when many Judgments are done in a City , well near half the People are forsworn in them — Therefore let the Presidents of Judgments not permit any to swear in Actions , not even for Perswasions sake ; but that he persevere in that which is Just , with a fitting Speech , &c. Valer. Max. 10. Cic. pro Corn. Balb. Diog. Laert. in vit . Xenocr . XV. Xenocrates was so renowned at Athens , for his Virtuous Life and great Integrity , that being called to give his Evidence by Oath , all the Judges stood up and forbad the Tender , because they would not have it thought , that Truth depended more upon an Oath , then the Word of an Honest Man. Menander . XVI . Menander , the Greek Poet , saith , Flee an Oath , though thou shouldst swear justly . Cherillus in Perseid . XVII . Cherillus saith , Oaths bring not Credit to the Man , but the Man must bring Credit to the Oaths . What serve they for then ? to Deceive ? It seems by this , that Credit is better then an Oath ; for it is the Credit that is the Security , not the Oath . Stobaeus in Jur. c. 27. XVIII . Alexides in Olynth , saith , A Wise Man ought alwayes to give Credit , not to Swearers , but to the Things themselves . Then Oaths are vain ; for it is not the meer Oath , but the Likelihood of the Truth of the Evidence , from the Consideration and Comparing of the Circumstances , that turns the Scale . Simocat . Epist . 33. F. XIX . Simocatus , Perfidiousness appears securer then Faithfulness ; and an Oath imposed is a fit Engin for Deceit . Strange ! that faithful Yea and Nay is stopt , when Perfidiousness with an Oath can pass all Guards , Courts and Offices . He manifestly links Oaths and Perfidiousness , and gives the Praise to Faithfulness . H. Gr●t . on Mat. 5. XX. Epictetus , a famous and grave Stoick , counselled , to Refuse an Oath ALTOGETHER . Quint. l. 8. XXI . Quintilian saith , that in Time past it was a kind of Infamy for Grave and Approved Men to Swear , as if their Authority should suffice for Credit : Therefore the Priests or Flamins were not compelled to it ; for then to compel a Noble Man to Swear , were like putting him upon the Rack , &c. Which shows an Oath to be an Unnatural and Extorting Way of Evidence , and that they preferred V●rtue and Truth before an Oath . Plutarch Rom. quest . 44. XXII . Plutarch in his 44th Rom. qu. upon the Custom of the Romans , holding it Unlawful for the Flamen Dialis , or Chief Priest , to Swear , puts the Question , Why is it not Lawful for Jupiter ' s Priest to Swear ? Is it because an Oath ministred unto Freemen is as it were the Rack & Torture tendered unto them ? For , certain it is , that the Soul , as well as the Body of the Priest ought to continue free , and not be forced by any Torture whatsoever ; or for that it is not meet to Distrust or Discredit him in small Matters , who is believed in Great and Divine Things ? or rather because every Oath endeth with Detestation and Malediction of Perjury ? And considering that all Maledictions be odious and abominable , therefore it is not thought good , that any other Priests whatsoever should Curse , or pronounce any Malediction : And in this respect was the Priestess of Minerva in Athens highly commended , for that she would never curse Alcibiades , notwithstanding the People commanded her so to do ; For I am ( quoth she ) ordained a Priestess to pray for Men , and not to curse them . Or last of all , was it , because the Peril of Perjury would reach in common to the whole Common-wealth , if a Wicked , Godless and Forsworn Person should have the Charge and Superintendence of the Prayers , Vows and Sacrifices made in the behalf of the City ? Thus far Plutarch , whose Morals have the Praise among all the Writings of Philosophers ; who is also commended himself very highly for his Virtue and Wisdom . See his Life . M. Aur. Ant. in Descript . bon . Vir. XXIII . M. Aurelius Antoninus , that Philosophical Roman Emperor , in his Description of a Good Man , sayes , That the Integrity of a truly good man is such , that there is no need of an Oath for him . Certainly then he was far from imposing Oaths upon his People , who both by his Exam-and Precept prefrr'd Integrity before an Oath . Libanius . XXIV . Libanius , a Greek Orator , though otherwise no Admirer of Christians , reckons this amongst the Praises of a Christian Emperor ; He is ( sayes he ) so far from being blackt with Perjury , that he is even afraid to swear the Truth . It seems then , they swore not in his time ; and that Libanius , an Enemy to Christians , preferr'd and admired Swear not at all . Auson . Epist . 2. XXV . We shall conclude with Ausonius , whose Saying seems to be all contracted , or those other Testimonies digested into one Axiom , that is , To swear or speak falsly , is one and the same thing . These are the Reflections upon Oaths we receive from Heathens , who by the Light they had , both discerned the Scope of the Evangelical Doctrine , Swear not at all , preceptively laid down by Christ our Lord , Mat. 5.34 . and prest it earnestly : And which is more to their Honour , but to the Christians Shame , several of them lived it sincerely . II. Testimonies from the Jews in Dislike of all Swearing . H. Grot. Com. on Mat. 5.34 . XXVI . Maimonides , out of the most ancient of the Jewish Rabbies extracts this memorable Axiom , IT IS BEST FOR A MAN NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL. Raimund . p. 135. XXVII . Raimundus quotes him thus , Maimonides in tract . de juramentis ; IT IS A GREAT GOOD FOR A MAN NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL ; The ancient and lawful Doctrine of the Synagogue . Jofeph . de bello Judaico l. 2. c. 7. XXVIII . The Esseni or Essaeans ( saith Josephus ) keep their Promise , and account every Word they speak of more force then if they had bound it with an Oath ; and they shun Oaths worse then Perjury ; for they esteem him condemned for a Lyar , who is not believed without calling God to witness . These Essaeans were the most Religious of the Jewish Pepole , though the Pharisees made the greatest Noise amongst the Rabble . Philo de decalogo , p. 583. XXIX . Philo , that excellent Jew , relates thus much concerning the same Essaeans , That what soever they said , was firmer then an Oath ; And that to Swear was counted amongst them a thing superfluous . Philo Judeus on Com. 3d. XXX . The same Philo himself thus taught in his Treatise on the Ten Commandments ; Commandment 3 d. Thou shalt not take the Name of God in vain : Many Wayes ( saith he ) do men sin against this Commandment ; so THAT IT IS BETTER NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL ; but so well accustom thy self to speak Truth alwaies , that thy Bare Word shall have the Force and Virtue of an Oath . It is become a Proverb , That to swear well and holily is a second Voyage ; for he that sweareth is suspected of Lying and Perjury . It is , saith he , most profitable and agreeable to the reasonable Nature , to abstain ALTOGETHER from Swearing . Whatsoever a godly Man speaks , let it go for an Oath . The Wisdom and Moderation of this worthy Personage reflects just Blame upon those that Pillage their Neighbours , because they Conscientiously Refuse an Oath : But that men , who pretend to be the Disciples of Jesus Christ , should commit these Cruelties , aggravates their Evils , and doubt less their Guilt . How can they ever hope to look their Lord with Comfort in the Face , who so severely Treat their Fellow-Servants ? Certainly Jews and Heathens will one Day rise up in Judgment against such Christians , for their Unnatural Carriage towards their Brethren : This is not to Love Enemies , but injure Friends . Jews and Heathens are become Names of Reproach ; yet to the Rebuke of Christians , as they call themselves , they not only discern'd the Rise and Ground of Oaths , but the Evil of using them , even while they were tolerated ; and both avoided them , and exhorted others to that Integrity which had no need of them . These Testimonies , though they are of Weight with us , and we hope they will have a due Impress upon the Minds of many of our Readers ; yet because nothing produced out of Jews and Gentiles , may advance our Cause with some , or render it ever the more acceptable , We shall next betake our selves to the more Christian Ages of the World , for Approbation of our Judgment , who we are sure will kindly entertain us , their Liberality being Extraordinary to our Cause ; and from whom we shall never want Votes for SWEAR NOT AT ALL , while their Works are in the World : May our Superiors joyn theirs with them , and we have Reason to believe , that our Deliverance from the Yoak of Oaths will be the happy Issue of this necessary Address . III. Testimonies from Christians , both Fathers , Doctors and Martyrs , in Dislike of All Swearing . Polycarpus . XXXI . The first Testimony recorded against Swearing , after the Apostles Times , was that of Polycarpus , who had lived with the Apostles , and was said to have been Disciple to John , not the least of the Apostles ; for at his Death , when the Governour bid him Swear , Defie Christ , &c. he said , Fourscore and Six Years have I served him , yet hath he never offended me in any thing . The Proconsul still urged and said , Swear by the Fortune of Caesar ; to whom Polycarpus answered , If thou requirest this Vain-glory , that I Protest the Fortune of Caesar , as thou sayest , feigning thou knowest not who I am , hear freely , I AM A CHRISTIAN . This Good man began his Fourscore and Six Years , which was about Twenty Years after James wrote Above all things , my Brethren , Swear Not ; and several years before John the Apostle deceased ; for he is called his Disciple . See his History and Commendation in Eusebius . We know it is objected by some , That he refused to Swear only because he could not swear by that Oath , which is a Guess , and no Confutation of what we alledge : But if that had been Polycarpus's Reason , why did he not rather say , The Law of God forbids Swearing by Idols ? 'T is certain , the first Christians would not Swear , but thought Polycarpus's Answer Security enough to them that demanded their Oath : He refused all Oaths as a Christian ; therefore saying , he was a Christian , was Reason sufficient why he would not take that Oath . Justin Martyr , Apol. 2. pro Christianis , ad Anton. Pium oper . p. 63. XXXII . It was some time before his Suffering that Justin Martyr , who is the first we find writing of it , publisht an Apology for the Christians in the year 150. as himself saith , and a second after that , wherein he tells us , after the Doctrine of his Master , That we should NOT SWEAR AT ALL , but alwayes speak the Truth . He , that is , Christ , hath thus commanded , SWEAR NOT AT ALL ; but let your YEA be YEA , and your NAY , NAY ; and what is more then these is of Evil. See his Praise and Martyrdom in Eusebius , soon after Polycarpus . Euseb . Eccl. Hist . lib. 5. c. 1. XXXIII . Under the same Emperor ( says Eusebius ) suffered also Ponticus , of Fifteen Years of Age , and Blandina , a Virgin , with all kind of Bitter Torments ; the Tormentors now and then urging them to Swear , which they constantly Refused . Euseb . ibid. lib. 6. cap. 4. XXXIV . And in the next Emperor's Reign , Basilides , a Souldier of Authority amongst the Hoast , being appointed to lead Potamiena to Execution , and by her convinced of the Truth in Christ , was after a while required to Swear ; But he affirmed plainly , It was not lawful for him to Swear ; for ( said he ) I am a Christian . He did not lay the Unlawfulness upon that Oath , but upon Swearing at all . The History only sayes , His Companions would have him swear upon some occasion or other , not mentioning by what ; His Answer was , It is Unlawful for me to Swear ; and why ? because , saith he , I am a Christian : The Consequence is plain , Christians took no Oaths , therefore not their Oaths . Tert. Apol. pro Christianis advers . gent. cap. 32. XXXV . In the same Emperor's Reign lived Tertullian , a strict and learned Man , who wrote a very notable Apology for the Christians , wherein he answers the Objection of the Heathen , who accused them of not being Well-wishers to the Emperor , nor Caesar's Friends , in that they refused to Sacrifice and Swear by the Genius , Fortune and Health of the Emperor ( we begin with this because it is urged by some against us ) saith he , We do Swear , as not by the Genius of the Caesars , so by or for their Safety , which is more August then all Genius's or Petty Gods ; for we reverently look up unto the Judgment of God in the Emperors , who hath set them over the Nations ; and we know that to be in them which God wills , and what God wills , that we will to be safe ( that God save it ) Hoc salvum esse volumus , et pro magno id juramento habemus ; i. And that we account for a great Oath , or that we have instead of a great Oath ; namely , our Well-wishing to Caesar : the thing that was desired , the Substance of the Oath ; that Oath which the Pythagoreans said was in all reasonable Creatures , viz. a full Resolution of Mind not to transgress the Law of God , which Tertullian saith here they had Respect to ; That Oath which a Just Man sweareth by his Deeds , as Clemens Alexandrinus speaketh . In like manner Tertullian sayes , to Scapula , We do Sacrifice for the Health of the Emperor , but that Way that God pleases , by pure Prayer ; so sayes he , Here we do swear by the Health of the Emperor , by willing his Health ; and I do work for the Health of the Emperor ; for I commend him to God * Otherwise , if we take the Words of this Doctor strictly and properly , who in writing is difficult , as Scultetus notes ; and obscure , as Lactantius sayes , we shall both cross the Scope of the Place , and accuse him and the Primitive Christians and Martyrs of his time , not only of Swearing , but Sacrificing for the Health of the Emperor ; neither of which do we ever read they did , nor as much as offered to do , had they , doubtless we should have heard off me Release or Favour shown them on that Condescension : Besides we shall also make him to contradict himself ( which Scultetus accuses him not of , in this ) For in his Book de Idololatria , he speaks without any Obscurity ; saying , I speak not of Perjury , seeing it is not Lawful to Swear . And in Chap. 23. he proves , That he which signs a Bill of Security containing and confirmed by an Oath , is guilty of Swearing , as if he had spoaken it , and transgresses Christ's Command , who hath prescribed not to swear . He is before speaking of the Idolatry , Christians are obnoxious to in regard of Imployments , as School-Masters by reason of Heathenish Books and Customs ; and Merchants or Trassiquers of Covetousness and Lying ; not to speak of Forswearing , saith he , SEEING IT IS NOT LAWFUL SO MUCH AS TO SWEAR ; which if any should do , he should surely be the Servant of Covetousness , in undertaking an unlawful Practice for Gain , as he sayes Lying was ; but if they should also Forswear , so adding Swearing to Lying , that should be a Servant of Servants to Covetousness , that is Idolatry : Which if Christians had committed indeed , it is unlikely that Tertullian would have made such a sleight and short preterition with a Sentence of Eight Words . And further observe , that both Tertullian and the Martyrs make use of the most Universal Proof , to make their Testimony for God full and compleat . And though their Enemies Tryal of them were short of proving them Christians , and distinguishing them from Jews ; yet in the Wisdom of God , their Answer and Argument being General and Christian , including the Special and Jewish , proves them not only true Jews , who were forbidden by God to Forswear , or to Swear by Idols ; but true Christians , not to swear , because it was unlawful ; for Christ had forbidden it : And as his Argument in the Apology aforesaid , was , It is Unlawful to Swear , much more to Forswear ; so here , Christ ( saith he ) hath prescribed not to Swear , then sure not to Swear and subscribe Gentile Oaths . So Basilides , Because I am a Christian , it is not lawful for me to swear ; then not your Oath : this is the just Sense and Consequence of it . And said Polycarp , I would have thee to know , that I am a Christian , and the Doctrine thereof , if thou wilt appoint a Time , I shall teach thee ( that is , not to swear ) therefore it is in vain for thee to bid me swear , and defie Christ : So Blandina and Ponticus were urged to Swear ( by what it is not said , and it matters not ) but in vain ; for they were Christians : We do not read that any used the Jewish Argument , the old Commandment , Thou shalt not Swear by Idols ; but the Christian Argument , the new Commandment , It is not lawful to Swear , Christ forbad it , I am a Christian , &c. And to this Purpose speaks Le Prieur on this Place of Tertullian , in his Annotations ( which the Publishers desired because of his Obscurity ; see their Preface ) Although , sayes he , the Christians did believe that All Swearing was Forbidden them , they before all Oaths were aware of Swearing by the Genius , or Fortune of the Prince . Here he confesses they were aware of All Swearing , much more that which was never lawful , to wit , Swearing by Idols . And thereupon he brings the Example of Polycarpus : But if all Oaths , then of Swearing by the Health of the Emperor ; for that was an Oath . And this African Writer's intricate Sense ( as the Publisher's Terms are ) must needs be in this as in the other , all along mystical : and as he sayes a little before , I offer a Sacrifice ( oratione ) by Prayer ; so going along he sayes , We Swear , juramus , i. jure oramus ; for so Bruno & Cassiodorus derive the Word , Jurare dictum est , quasi juste orare , hoc est , juste loqui . Again , Ps . 61. They swear in God , or to God , or by God , who Promise an inviolable Odience of Mind to him . Jurare to swear ( saith he ) is , jure orare , to speak Equity , that he will not decline to another Party , from what he hath promised . Again , Here Swearing is firmly in mind to resolve to fulfil the good Purpose . And that this must be Tertullian's Sense , not only the Scope ( for which see Scultetus on the Place ) but his Explanation of it , by willing what God wills , and that to be to them for a great Oath ; plainly declares to sagacious Readers , and such Tertullian's African Speech requires , as Rigaltius sayes of his Writings , which have been * altered of them that could not comprehend them . But is it likely that a Man so severe , that condemned the very subscribing of a Writing wherein an Oath was contained , and for this Reason , because Christ forbad to Swear at all ; and thought it needless to speak of Perjury , because it was not lawful to swear , should yet allow it in himself and others to swear even by that which was not God ? Besides , Suarez reckons him amongst those Fathers who were more especially against Swearing . Thus are the Conspirers against this part of the Doctrine of Christ , and his Apostles , Primitive Fathers and Martyrs , forc'd out of that Sanctuary they betook themselves to , in the Sentence of this intricate Doctor . Clem. Alex. Strom. l. 7. XXXVI . Clemens Alexandrinus , his Contemporary , famous for Learning and Strict Living , to help him in his Mystical Meaning of an Oath , sayes , He who is once a Believer , why shall he make himself an * Unbeliever , as that he hath also need to Swear , and doth not so lead his Life , that the same ( to wit , his Life ) be a firm and definite Oath , and shew the Faithfulness of Confession in a constant and stable Speech — Far be it , that he who is approved and discerned in such Piety , should be propense to Lye or to Swear — He who liveth justly , transgressing in nothing of these things that should be done , the same sweareth truly and holily by his Deeds and Works ( Mark how this agrees with Tertullian's improper Swearing ) the Testimony of the Tongue is superfluous to him — It sufficeth to add unto his Affirming or Denying this , viz. I SPEAK TRULY , that he beget Faith in them who perceive not the Stability of his Answer : For it behoveth him , as I judge ( saith he ) to have a Life worthy of Credit ( or Faith ) among those that are without , that an Oath be not sought from him — Neither doth he Swear , as being one , who hath determined to put for his Affirming YEA , for his Denying NAY . — Where is there any need of an Oath to him that so lives , as one that is attain'd to the height of Truth ? He therefore that doth not Swear , is far from Forswearing : He that transgresseth in nothing that is covenanted and agreed , HE MAY NEVER SWEAR . — Seeing he is fully perswaded that God is every where , and is ashamed not to speak Truth , and professeth that it is a thing unbeseeming , and unworthy for him to speak False ; he is content with this , that God and his own Conscience know it , and therefore he doth not Lye , nor do any thing besides or against what is covenanted and agreed : By that means he neither sweareth , if he be asked ; nor denyes , so as to speak false , though he dye upon the Rack for it . Likewise in his 5th , 7th and 8th Books of Strom. also in his 3d Book of his Paedagogue with Gentianus Hervetus's Notes on it , where he forbids to set Two Prices , and commands but one single one , and to speak Truth WITHOUT an Oath , &c. Origen in Matth. Tract . 25. XXXVII . Origen , his Successor , a Man of equal Fame for Learning and Piety , succeeds him also in this Testimony concerning Swearing : Because , saith he , the Jews have a Custom to swear by Heaven ; to the fore-going ( Prohibition ) Christ added this also to reprove them , because they more easily swore by Heaven then by God ; because he deals alike unreasonably , who sweareth by HEAVEN , as he that swears by the TEMPLE , or by the ALTAR , in that who sweareth by Heaven , seemeth to swear by him that sitteth in that Throne , and doth not escape Danger , as he thinks , because he sweareth not by God himself , but by the Throne of God : And these things he speaks to the Jews , forbidding them to give heed to the Traditions of the Pharisees ; otherwise , before , HE MANIFESTLY FORBAD TO SWEAR AT ALL. The Chief Priest said unto him , I adjure thee by the Living God , that thou tell us if thou be the Christ , the Son of God. In the Law we find the Use of Adjuring ; The Priest shall adjure the Woman with the Adjurations of this Curse . Also Ahab said unto Michaeas , I adjure thee that thou tell me the Truth in the Name of the Lord. The King adjured the Prophet , not by Command of the Law , but by his own Will. And now the Priest adjures Jesus by the Living God. But I account that a Man that will live according to the Gospel , MUST NOT ADJURE ANOTHER : For it is even like that which the Lord himself forbids in the Gospel , BUT I SAY UNTO YOU , SWEAR NOT AT ALL. For if it be not lawful to swear , as to the Gospel-Command of Christ , it is also true , that it is not lawful to Adjure another , or compel him to Swear . Huetius upon him addeth , that Athanasius , Chrysostom , Epiphanius , Hilary , and many more were of of the same Mind with him : and if so , we may without Offence add , upon that Respect our Superiors seem to carry to their Names , that it must needs be very remote from the Doctrine of the ancient Church , to fine , imprison , and bitterly treat those that for Conscience of that Gospel-Command do scruple an Oath in this Age. If thou wilt return , O Israel , saith the Lord , and put away thy Abominations , then shalt thou not remove . And thou shalt swear the Lord liveth in Truth , and Judgment , and Righteousness . Origen here tells us , That this is a Reproof of them that did not Swear in Judgment , but without Judgment : Howbeit , we know ( saith he ) that the Lord said unto his Disciples , But I say unto you , SWEAR NOT AT ALL. Perhaps formerly it behoved them to Swear in Truth , Judgment and Righteousness ; that after any had given Proof of his Integrity , he might be thought worthy of being believed WITHOUT ANY OATH AT ALL. But once having YEA , he needs no Witness that it is YEA ; and having NAY , he needs no other Evidence to prove that it is NAY . Thus doth Origen prefer and extol Evangelical Verity , wrapt up in solemn Yea or Nay , above the Swearing that was in Truth , Judgment and Righteousness under the Dispensation of the Law. Socrates Scolast . lib. 4. cap. 22. of his Ecclesiastical History . XXXVIII . Gregory Thaumaturgus , so called from his working of Miracles , on Eccles . lib. 46. cap. 8. saith , It is meet to give diligent heed to the Words of the King , and to flee an Oath by all means , especially that which is taken in the Name of God. See his great Praise , his Works and Miracles . Cyprian Lib. 3. Testim . ad Quirin . XXXIX . Cyprian , a famous Father , and faithful Martyr ( who lived about the middle of the Age , in the beginning of which Origen flourished ) in his third Book of Testimonies to Quirinus , Who hath desired me ( said Cyprian ) to draw out of the holy Scriptures certain Heads , belonging to the Religious Discipline of our Sect ( for so he calleth his own , the Christian Religion ) His 12th Head amongst them is , Not to Swear . Again , Writing of Pastors and Teachers , he biddeth them , Remember what the Lord taught , and said , Let your saying be Yea , Yea ; and Nay , Nay . In another Place he saith , It is unlawful for any man to compel another to take an Oath . Hitherto the Christians , being under most cruel Sufferings , generally kept faithful to the Command of Christ in this Point ; and so we find very little in their Writings about it , besides a simple and bare asserting of it as the Doctrine of Christ , not to swear at all , as well as it was of Moses , not to swear falsly or vainly ; for more was no way needful , in that it was not Contested , but universally so Received . But after that Christian-Emperors had engaged themselves in Parties , then it seems many out of Flattery , and to engage them to their Sect , took Liberty to Swear , even by the Health of the Emperor , as is objected against us by some out of Eusebius ; but such he did not account Religious ; neither that a Religious Part so to do , much less an August Act ; and least of all , a most August Act of Divine Worship , as some would have it ; seeing Stobaeus observes from him , That whereas many exhorted that they be honest and faithful in an Oath , he , for his part , esteemed it not the Part of a Religious Man , not to avoid even Swearing it self . And we believe it will be a hard Matter to find any in the Greek Church , especially for the first Three Hundred Years , that would allow Swearing so large a Place in Sacred Things , yea , or in later Ages either , even in the Latin Church ; nay , of those who have allowed it in some Cases , many or most of them have denyed it any Place at all in the Worship of God , as of it self , accounting it an Abatement , rather then an Advancement to Christianity , which no part of the true Worship of God can be . But some perhaps taking of Tertullian's word Augustior , or more August , ( which he sayes , the Safety of the Emperor is , in Comparison of all the Genius's ) to be the highest Act of God's Worship , they would have us swear by that , after the Example of those mention'd in some Christian-Emperors Times . Tertullian's Sense we shall easily grant ; for it is so , and we do so , in that we commend our Prince and Governours to God , to God only , with earnest and sincere Desires for his and their Safety , above all such Genius's , as Tertullian calls Daemonia . But we justly deny upon the score of what we have made appear to the contrary , even from Tertullian himself , and others , That he , or the Christians in his time , or for Two Hundred Years before , or a Hundred Years after , did swear , as some would have us , least of all as a most August Act of the Worship of God , without which all others are unacceptable ; or that those who did swear afterwards were the most Religious ; seeing Eusebius esteems otherwise , and not he only , but also those very Devout Men that we have already produced , besides many which might and may be mentioned : For , all that we have yet met with , in those Times , that speak of it , speak against it ; and of the following Times Men of greatest Renown and Authority , labour'd with all Earnestness to expel Oaths the Society of Christians , and cure them of that Distemper by inculcating the Doctrine of Integrity , that needs no Oath ; proving by holy Scripture , that it was the plain and absolute Law of Christ , that Christians ought not to swear at all ; and by other Arguments , that the Original of Oaths was neither from God , nor good Men : But they crept into Use through the Corruption of Times , and meer Carelesness of Governments ; for , when they could not trust one another , they called their God's to witness ; but God separating Abraham and his Posterity from among them , to himself , the better to draw them from Idols , commanded them to swear by him only : as much as if he would have said ; If you will Swear , let it be by my Name rather then Idols , that so you may , though it be after a mean manner acknowledge a real Deity , the Only Lord of all : But how long was this Condescension to last ? But till the Fulness of Time came ; That , with other Permissions , removed all Swearing , Christ bringing men to the Truth in the Inward Parts , as in the Beginning , before Swearing was in being ; for from the Beginning it was not so . But to shew what other Fathers Reasons & Testimonies against this Heathenish and Jewish Usage , indeed Bondage , were , at the coming in of the Apostacy , we shall begin with Athanasius , a Man that was in great Renown in the dayes of Constantine the Great , and whose Creed is the Faith and Test of Christendom at this day . Athanasius on the Passion of Christ . XL. The Evangelical Sentence of the Lord is , Let your Yea be Yea , and your Nay , Nay : Thus far we , who are in Christ , may confirm our Words with Asseverations , and with no further Progress let us flee to or approach Oaths , that we alledge not God for Witness for Corruptible Money 's sake , especially since Moses so sets down the Law ; Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in a vain thing . For if any one is plainly worthy to name God , he is also worthy of Belief ; For , whosoever is meet for greater things , he will be much more fit for less : On the contrary , if he be not worthy Belief , that he may be credited without an Oath , surely he is not one that is worthy to name God. If he be not faithful in Word , how will God by any means be the Witness of an Oath for him , who is destitute of Faith , to which God hath Respect ? Again , The Lord is nigh to all that call upon him in Truth ; by which alone the Lord can be called upon : Wherefore why do they swear by God , who are not trusted even in small Matters ? Otherwise , an Oath is a Testimony of Truth , and not a Judge of Businesses , sith men do swear , not that they may signifie Businesses , but that they may confirm the Truth ; and that they may shew , that those things which they produce , are without Lying : If therefore he that swears hath Faith and Truth , WHAT USE IS THERE OF AN OATH ? But if he hath no Faith nor Truth , why do we undertake such an Impiety , that for poor silly Men , and those mortal too , we call to Witness GOD , that is above men ? For if it be a base Part to call to witness an Earthly King to the lowest Judicatures , as one that is greater then both Actors and Judges ; why do we cite him that is uncreated to created things , and make God to be despised of men ? HOUT , that exceeds all Iniquity and Audaciousness : What then is to be done ? NO MORE but that our YEA be YEA , and our NAY be NAY ; and in short , THAT WE DO NOT LYE . But if we shall seem to speak Truth , and imitate the true God , some perchance may thus contradict . If an Oath be forbidden to men , and a man imitates God in not Swearing , how is it that God is related in the holy Scriptures to swear ? for , he swore to Abraham , as Moses witnesseth : And it is written in the Psalms , The Lord swore , and will not repent , &c. For these things seem to be repugnant to the former ; and that thereby there is permitted to men a Liberty of Swearing . But this is not so , nor can any think so : For God sweareth by none ; for how can he , seeing he is Lord and Maker of all things ? But if any thing , this must be said , that His Word is an Oath , inducing the Hearers by a sure Faithfulness , that what he promiseth & speaketh , shall certainly be effected ; sith God sweareth not as Man , but his Word to us is as an Oath for V●rity . And speaking to men , he is said to swear : And this also the Saints do utter after the manner of men ; that as they themselves speaking would have Credit to be given them , so likewise they themselves should give Credit to God : For , as a man's Word confirmeth an Oath , so also those things that God speaketh , because of the Firmness and Immutability of his Will are to be reputed Oaths . The same also that is there written confirmeth my Saying , For the Lord hath sworn , and will not repent ; as a thing not to be retracted by Repenting , but certainly to be effected , according to the Engagement of an Oath . This also God doth declare in Genesis , saying , I have sworn by myself : But that is not an Oath ; for he swore not by another , which is proper for an Oath , but by himself , which contains not the Estimation of an Oath . But this is done that the Sureness of his Promise may appear ; and how confidently that ought to be believed which is spoaken . That sweet Psalmist will witness for me in his Psalm , calling God to mind , when he saith , Where are thy ancie●t Mercies , O Lord , which thou swarest to David thy Servant , in ( or by ) thy Truth ? For God sweareth not by his Truth ; But because he , who is True , speaketh in his Word , That to men is for an Oath unto Belief . So God doth not swear after the manner of men : neither must we be induced thereby to take Oaths ; but let us so Say , and so Do , and so approve our selves in saying and doing , that we need not an Oath for the Hearer ; and that our Words of themselves may have the Testimony of Truth : For , by that Way we shall plainly imitate God. Hilary on Mat. 5.34 . XLI . Hilary , a Father , very Famous in the dayes of Constantius , Son to Constantine ( but an Arrian , and which was worse , a Persecutor , so that this Hilary was banished ) in his Commentary on those words in Matthew , Ye have heard that it was said to them of old , Thou shalt not Forswear thy self , &c. thus expresseth himself , The Law set a Penalty for Perjury , that the Conscience of Religion or Fear of an Oath might restrain the Deceitfulness of Minds ; for the rude and insolent People made frequent mention of their God by a familiar Course of Swearing : But Faith doth remove the Custom of an Oath , making the Businesses of our Life to be ●etermined in Truth , and laying aside the affecting to deceive ; prescribing the Simplicity of Speaking and Hearing , that what WAS , WAS : what WAS NOT , WAS NOT ; that the Business of Deceiving might be apparent between IT IS , and IT IS NOT ; and what is more , is all of Evil : For what is , it is its Property alwayes , that so it is ; and what is not , it is its Nature , that it is not : Therefore to them that live in the Simplicity of Faith , there is no NEED of the Religion ( or Superstition ) of an OATH ; with whom alwayes what is , IS ; what is not , IS NOT : And by these both all their Words and Deeds are in Truth . Neither by Heaven ] God not only suffers us not to make Oaths to God , because all the Truth of God is to be held in the simplicity of our Word and Deed ; but also condemneth the Superstition of old Disobedience , &c. Suarez de Juram . l. 1. c. 1 , 2. XLII . The next Testimony we shall pitch upon in Confirmation of our Reasons , and the Sense we take our Master's Precept in , Swear not at all , is afforded us out of the Apostolical Institutions asscribed to Clemens Romanus , reported by Suarez , in his Book de Juramentis , Our Master ( saith Clemens ) hath commanded , that we SHOULD NOT SWEAR , no , not by the True God ; but that our Word should be more credible then an Oath it self . Which is a plain Indication of the Apostolical Doctrine to have been the absolute Prohibition of Oaths , in that Sense wherein they were only reputed Lawful : for if men ought not to Swear , no , not by the true God ; then consequently by no other Oath , as his following words not only imply , but express , viz. That the Word of a Christian should be more credible then an Oath it self . Again , He that in the Law established to Swear well , and forbad False Swearing ; commanded also , NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL. Orthodoxagrapha p. 11. LXIII . There is a Tract , call'd , The Gospel of Nicodemus : We know it is reputed spurious , but that makes nothing against us ; that disputes the Author , and not the M●tter ; for though Nicodemus never wrote such a Book , certain it is that such a Book was written , which is in Favour of Christianity , as then received : In the Place cited Pilate is made to say , I adjure you by the Health of Caesar , that these things that you say , &c. They answer'd , We have a Law , not to SWEAR , because it is a Sin. Whoever wrote it , this Benefit cometh to our Argument , that the Christians , at that time , thought an Oath a Sin ; for it is not to be doubted , but he that gave that Answer ▪ knew it to be the Doctrine and Practice of Christians ; for he was therein to represent them . Basilius Magnus on Psalm 14. XLV . Basil , called the Great , another Champion of the like Fame , and in the same time of Valens , the Persecuting Arrian Emperor , by whom he suffered Imprisonment and Cruel Threatnings ( see their Praises in Socrates Scolasticus ) on the 14th Psalm , with us the 15th , He that sweareth , and deceiveth not his Neighbour ; so Basil hath it , and upon it these words : Here he seemeth to allow an Oath to a Perfect Man , which in the Gospel is ALTOGETHER forbidden ; But I say unto you , not to Swear at all . What shall we say then ? That every where the Lord , as well in the old as in the new Law , hath the same Consideration of Commanding ; for desiring to anticipate the Effects of Sins , and prevent them by Diligence , and to extinguish Iniquity at the first beginnings , As the old Law saith , Thou shalt not commit Adultery ; the Lord saith , Thou shalt not Lust : The old Law saith , Thou shalt not Kill ; the Lord ordaining Perfection , saith , Thou shalt not be Angry : So also in this place , the Prophet indeed seemeth to assent to an Oath ; but the Lord , to take away all Occasion of Perjury , and willing to prevent the Dangers of Swearers , takes away Swearing ALTOGETHER : For he names an Oath in many places the immutable and firm Constancy of any thing or purpose . I have sworn , and have stedfastly purposed to keep the Judgments of thy Righteousness : Also , The Lord hath sworn , and will not repent . Not that David brought the Lord for a Witness of his Sayings , and to get Belief to his Doubting , but that he confirmed the Grace of his Profession by an Immutable and firm Decree : so also he could have said here , that is , He that sweareth , and deceiveth not his Neighbour , that it may agree with the Saying of our Saviour , Let your Word be YEA , YEA ; NAY , NAY . To things that are , thou mayst affirm and assent ; but of things that are not , although all men urge thee , yet thou mayst never be drawn by any means to affirm against the Nature of the Truth : Is the thing not done , let there be a Denyal ; is it done , let it be affirmed by Word . And he that shall not assent to him so affirming , * let him look to it , and feel the Harm of his Unbelief . It is a base and a very foolish thing to accuse one's self , as one unworthy of being believed , and to betake and refer one's self to the Security of an Oath . Now , there are some Speeches which have the Forms of Oaths , and yet are no Oaths at all , but rather Remedies to perswade ; as Joseph to make the Aegyptian familiar with him , swore by the Health of Pharaoh ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 live Pharaoh ) And the Apostle , willing to shew his Love to the Corinthians , said , By the Glorying of you , which I have in Christ Jesus , our Lord : For he did not depart from the Doctrine of the Gospel who , by a thing before all most dear unto him , simply sought Belief to the Truth . He refused to swear at the Council of Chalcedon : And speaking of Clineas , a Pythagorean , who might have avoided a Mulct of Three Talents , if he would have sworn , which he rather suffered ; saith , In keeping these things he seems to have heard that Command concerning an Oath that is forbidden us . And he upbraided the Christians of his time with it , that would swear . This Basil the Great , in his 29th Canon to Amphilochius , writes thus , Because an Oath is ALTOGETHER FORBIDDEN , such an one as is taken to an Evil Purpose , is much more to be condemned — Again , If an Oath , simply as such , be prohibited , of greater Reason when it is to effect some Mischievous End — The Cure consisteth in a twofold Admonition ; 1. NOT TO SWEAR ; 2. TO SVPPRESS THE FORM OF OATHS . Blastaris Syntagma Tit. E. c. 32. XLV . There was an ancient Law made to this effect , It is FORBIDDEN to all , from the Bishop and Clergy-Men to the Readers , to TAKE ANY OATH AT ALL. Blastaris also brings in this Objection , But since those are punished who swear falsly , and those are passed by who swear well , some may say , Therefore it is permitted to swear . To which he answers , But where shall we dispose , o● how shall we dispense with the Evangelical Precept in the Gospel , THAT FORBIDS STAKING ANY OATH AT ALL ? Adding , But I believe that the Gospel endeavoured to root out that Wicked Stem ( as I may say ) which is in sinful me● , and FOR THAT CAVSE PROHIBITED AN OATH , which is as the Door or In-let to Perjury . Gregor . Nyssenus on Cant. orat . 13. XLVI . Gregory Nissenus , Brother to Basil , spoaken of by Socrates Scolasticus in the same place , and in lib. 5. cap. 9. His Works are Famous : And in his Explanation on the Canticles , bestows this Testimony upon us : He , who by Moses established the Beginnings of the Law , by himself fulfilled all the Law and the Prophets , as he saith in the Evangels : I came not to destroy the Law , but fulfil it ; who taking away Anger , abolisheth Killing also ; and together with Lust , took away Adultery . He also casts out of men's Lives accursed Perjuries , whilst by the Prohibition of an Oath , he has put in his Sith as it were to Security : For it cannot be , that any should not keep an Oath when there is no Oath ; Therefore saith he , You have heard , that it was said to them of old time , Thou shalt not Forswear , but shalt render to the Lord thy Oaths ; but I say unto you , SWEAR NOT AT ALL , neither by Heaven , &c. but let your YEA be YEA , and your NAY , NAY ; for whatsoever is more , is of the Devil . Thus do they mostly end ; which shows how they understood Christ's Words . Greg. Nazianz. in his Dialogue against Swearing , Jamb . 20. XLVII . Gregory Nazianzen , a great Man in the Church , also speaketh to the same Purpose , in his Dialogue against Swearing , saying , B. What Oath dost thou leave to us ? A. I wish I might leave none , and that there were never any more . But thou sayest , We have heard that God himself sometimes swore : The holy Scriptures record that ; But is there any thing better then God ? Surely nothing is found better then He : If therefore nothing be better then he , it should follow , that he never swears . B. Why therefore do they record that he swore ? A. When God saith any thing , that is the Oath of God. B. And how doth he swear by himself ? A. How ! He should not at all be God , if he should lye . B. Thou speakest strangely ! A. No Wonder ; that is the Nature of God peculiarly , that he cannot lye : There is none that can deny this . B. But what wilt thou say to me of the old Covenant ? Surely it doth not prohibit an Oath , but requires a true one ? A. No Wonder : At that time only it was prescribed in the Law concerning Murder ; but now it is not lawful for any Cause so much as to smite or beat : then the End of an Evil Deed only came into Judgment ; but now that also which moveth to the End. This is my Judgment : for now we have made , a long Progress ; wherefore a Wise Man will abstain from Oaths . B. What then ? Dost thou give to some as Infants a kind of first Food , that they may at length receive a succeeding kind of Meat ? A. Thou judgest right and wisely . B. But Paul also swore , as they say ? A. Who said so ? Oh , what a vain Jangler was he that said it ! Quoth he , God is my Witness , and God knoweth : Those words are not an Oath , but a certain Asseveration in such great things , constant and inviolable . B. Wilt thou allow the same also to me ? A. I wish , that to thy Power thou wouldst plainly become a Paul , and so thou wouldst have a Right Rule of thine Actions . B. What if I use an Oath Unwillingly , but to free me from Danger ? A. Let another allow thee that . B. What if an Oath be written , and not pronounced with the Voice ? A. And what 's the Meaning of a Writing ? Surely amongst all other Obligations , a Writing doth more bind and obliege us . B. What if we be drawn by Necessity to give an Oath ? A. Why didst thou not rather Dye ? For surely , thou shouldst rather Dye then do that . B. What if the Books of the holy Scriptures be not used ? A. What! Is Religion placed in a Leaf ? Is God absent by this Means ? It is evident that thou fearest ( Paper , or ) Parchment , and I fear God more : This is a frequent Disease to many , and usual ; neither is it otherwise then if a Man beat the Master , and Disgrace him , and make his Servant a Free-man , and do him Honour ( What a notable Reproach should that be ? ) or as if a Man should preserve the King's Image , and in the mean time destroy the King. B. It is even as thou sayest : But I would have thee say what is more to be shewn . A. Many use to say , I swore with my Tongue , but my Mind is free from Swearing . Any thing may be more cunningly excused then an Oath : Let him not suffer any Colour to be made for himself ; For this is an Oath : And how much Mischief , tell me , comes from Deceit it self ? Let us see what an Oath is : Nothing else but the very Meaning ( or Mind ) of those things which we set down — Thou wouldst have me add what remains : Surely an Oath is nothing else , but a certain Consummation as it were of Mischiefs : O Dangerous Flame ! B. But Plato doth some such thing . He is Religiously aware , that he swear not by any God. A. Truly I know what thou art about to say : There was a certain Plane Tree , by which alone he made Oath : But he did not swear rightly , neither by that ; For he had an Understanding in something ; but what a just & religious Oath should be , that he could not understand . And what was this , tell me now ? A certain Shadow of an Oath ; a Declaration without a Name ; an Oath no ▪ Oath , as the Philosophers swore by a strange and unknown God. Lastly , it is nothing else , but to make Oath by any thing . Here our Speech let be an End. Thou threatnest that thou wilt leave me athirst sooner then I would . A. If an Oath seem a small thing to thee , truly I cannot commend thee : But if it is , as it is , in the number of horrible things , I will also dare to produce a mighty thing : I do adjure by a very Oath it self , that thou abstain from , and beware of Oaths , and thou hast the Victory . B. I wish I had . What Fruit gets he that often sweareth ? Laughter . What more ? That when he speaks Truth , he shall not be believed . In another place he saith , That to swear by Creatures is to swear with regard to God himself ; so Christ himself saith , Mat. 5.35 . and chap. 23.16 , 23. Caesarius , Num. 43. XLVIII . Caesarius , Brother to Gregory Nazianzen ; in his spiritual Sentences , hath this Sentence , Flee ALL Swearing , or EVERY Oath : How then shall we get Belief ? As well by Speech as by virtuous Actions and Carriages , that gain Belief to our Speech . Perjury is a Denying of God : What need of God in this Matter ? Interpose and put in ure thy Actions . Epiphan . adv . Heres . lib. 1. ord . 19. §. 6. XLIX . Epiphanius , whom S●crates Scholasticus , lib. 6. cap. 9. calls a Man of great Fame and Renown , and a Virtuous and Godly Person ; in his first Book against Heresies ●not accounting Denying to Swear an Heresie , but rather the contrary , as may appear by his words , which are these ) In the Law , as well as the Gospel , it is commanded not to use another Name in Swearing : but in the Gospel he commanded not to Swear , neither by Heaven nor Earth , nor other Oath ; but let Yea Yea ; Nay , Nay ; BE AS AN OATH as Petavius translates it ) for what is more then these is of Evil. Therefore I suppose that the Lord ordained concerning this , because of some mens Allegations , that would swear by other Names ; and first , that we must not Swear , no , not by the Lord himself , nor by any other Oath ; for it is an Evil thing to swear at all . Therefore he is Evil that compels not only to swear by God , but by other things , &c. Ambros . de Virgin. lib. 3. L. Ambrose , soon after , being a Lay man or Citizen of Milan , was by the People , against his Will , chosen Bishop of that City , for his great Worth and Godliness , whose Writings are of great Account ; And speaking of the Inconveniency occasion'd by an Oath , saith , Wherefore not without Cause doth the Lord in the Gospel command not to Swear , that there may be no Cause of Forswearing , that there may be no Necessity of Offending . He that Sweareth not , certainly he never Forsweareth ; but he that Sweareth , sometimes he must needs fall into Perjury , because all Men are subject to Lye. Do not therefore Swear , lest thou beginnest to Forswear . Therefore the Lord , who came to teach the little Ones , to INSPIRE Novices , to confirm the * Perfect , saith in the Gospel , YE MUST NOT SWEAR AT ALL ; because he spoak to the Weak . Lastly , He spoak not only to the Apostles , but to the Multitude ; for he would not have thee to Swear , lest thou shouldst Forswear . And he added , Not to swear , neither by Heaven , nor by the Earth , &c. namely , by those things that are not subject to thy Power . The Lord Sware , and shall not Repent . He may swear , who cannot repent of his Oath : And what did the Lord swear ? That Christ is a Priest forever : Is that Uncertain ? Is that Impossible ? the Lord has sworn . Can it any way be changed ? Do not therefore use the Example of an Oath , because thou hast not Power to fulfil an Oath . Also , in his Commentary on the Hebrews , he saith , Because Mankind is incredulous , God condescendeth to us , if even he sweareth for us . So that he shews , that not to be an Argument for Swearing to be desired , seeing it is only in Condescension to a Defect ; not to be encouraged from it to swear , or to require it . Chrysost . on Gen. hom . 15. LI. Chrysostom , in those dayes very Famous in the Church , and therefore styl'd the Golden Doctor ; in his 15th Homily on Genesis , saith ; A Christian must flee Oaths by all means , hearing the Sentence of Christ , which saith , It was said to them of old , Thou shalt not Forswear ; But I say unto you , SWEAR NOT AT ALL. Let none say therefore , I swear in a Just Business . IT IS NOT LAWFUL TO SWEAR , NEITHER IN A JUST NOR UNJUST THING . To swear is of the Devil , seeing Christ faith , For what is more , is of Evil , or the Evil One. Swearing took not its Beginning from the Will , but from Negligence only . Thou hast heard ( saith he ) the Wisdom of Christ , saying , That not only to Forswear , but also in ANY MANNER TO SWEAR , is Devilish , and all a Device of the Evil One. IF TO SWEAR IS FOUND TO BE DEVILISH , how are they to be punished who Forswear ? IF TO SWEAR TRULY BE A CRIME , and a transgressing of the Commandment , where shall we place Perjury ? Speaking of a Christian ( so call'd ; for he that dare do such things we cannot call a sincere Christian ) whom he saw compelling a certain Honest , Ingenuous , Modest and Faithful Matron , to go into the Jews Synagogue , there to be Sworn about some Business in Controversie betwixt them , she desiring Help , and imploring to be freed from this Wicked Force , &c. I ( saith he ) kindled with Zeal , arose , and not suffering her to be further drawn into this Prevarication , rescued her ; and enquired of him that had drawn her to it , Whether he were a Christian or not ? Who confessing he was ; I severely urged and upbraided him with his Folly and Extream Madness , to go about to draw any Body , he professing himself to be a Worshipper of Christ , TO THE JEWS DENS , who had crucified him . And going on in speaking , I taught him out of the holy Gospel , THAT IT IS NOT LAWFUL TO SWEAR AT ALL , NOR TO INCITE ANY TO SWEAR , after that ; not one that is a Believer or initiated , no , nor one that is not initiated , to be drawn to that Extremity : After I had spoaken much , and a long time of it , I delivered his Mind from the Error of Opinion , &c. Be pleased to observe how Chrysostom , a Zealous and Famous Man , both for his Books , and the Persecution that he suffered , being Patriarch or Prime Oversees of the Church at Constantinople , one of the Four of the chiefest in the World , uses no Distinction of private and publick Oaths , the common Talk of our Imposers ; for here he labours against drawing any to Swear at all , even in Judicature , because it was not lawful TO SWEAR SO AT ALL , no , not as the Jews swore , much less as the Gentiles . Again , Let none say to me , What if any lay on me a Necessity of Swearing ? And what if he do not believe ? Certainly where the Law is violated one , must not make any mention of Necessity ; for there is one unavoidable Necessity , NOT TO OFFEND GOD. Moreover , this I say , That in the mean time we may cut off superfluous Oaths , those , I mean , which are made rashly and without any Necessity amongst Friends and Servants ; And if thou take away these , in the other thou shalt need me no more : For that Mouth which hath learned to fear and flee an Oath , if any would compel it ten thousand times , it will never admit of falling into that Custom , &c. But if thou fear nothing else , at least fear that Book which thou takest in thy hands , bidding another to Swear ; and when thou turnst it , and markst what Christ hath there commanded concerning Oaths , QUAKE & FORBEAR . What doth it say then of OATHS there ? Answ . But I say unto you , Swear not at all . Dost thou make that Law an Oath , which forbids to Swear ? Oh Injurious , Oh Unjust thing ! For thou dost , as if a man should take for his Companion a Law giver that forbids to kill , and command him to be made a Murderer . As therefore , when a Fight is begun , although we are often Reviled ; yet we endure it well , and we say to him that doth it , that Patron of thine hath hurt me , he holds my Hands ; and this serves us for Solace . After the same manner if thou wilt exact an Oath of any , restrain thy self , and with-hold ; and say to him that is about to swear , What shall I do to thee , sith God hath commanded , neither to swear , nor to compel to swear ; he now with-holdeth me ? This is enough for the Law-giver's Honour , for thy Security , and his Fear who should swear . Do thus much for me therefore , that they that come hither may say , That is not to be seen in any City , which is at Antioch ; For they that inhabit that City had rather their Tongues should be cut out , then an Oath should proceed out of their Mouth , &c. What is it ? Thou shalt render unto the Lord thy Oaths : that is , in swearing thou shalt speak true ; But I say unto you , NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL : And then , to put off the Hearers , that they should not swear by God , he saith , Neither by Heaven , for it is the Throne of God ; nor by the Earth , for it is his Foot-stool , &c. For he said not , because the Heaven is Fair and Great , nor because the Earth is Vile ; but because that is the Throne of God , and this his Foot-stool ; by all which he drives them to the Fear of God. — What then , if any require an Oath , and impose a Necessity of Swearing ? A. Let the Fear of the Lord be more forcible to thee then all Necessity or Compulsion : For if thou wilt alwayes object such like Occasions , thou wilt keep none of those things which are commanded : For thou mightst also say it concerning thy Wife ; What if she be a Scold ? What if she be Nice and Curious ? And of thy Right Eye ; What if I have a Delight in it , and be inflamed with the Love of it , & c. ? and so thou wilt trample upon all things that are commanded . But in the Laws which Men command thou darest alledge no such thing , as , What if this or that , & c ? And if thou wilt keep the Law of Christ , thou wilt not suffer any Compulsion to hinder thee from the Observation thereof ▪ for he that heard the Blessedness that is before , in the same Sermon , and shews himself such an one as Christ commendeth , he shall suffer no such Compulsion from any , seeing he is Venerable and Admirable with all Men. What then shall we say is beyond Yea and Nay ? A. Without doubt AN OATH , not Perjury ; sith this is altogether manifest , and none needs be taught that it is of Evil ; and not so much Superfluous , as Altogether Contrary . Now , that is superfluous which is added needlesly , and too much ; which surely is an Oath . Why then shall this be said to be of Evil ? And if it was of Evil , how was it commanded in the Law ? A. Thou wilt say that also concerning thy Wife ; How is it now Adultery , which was sometime suffered ? What then shall we say to these things ? But that many of those things which were then spoaken , the Weakness of them that received the Law required : For it is a thing very unmeet for God to be worshipped with the Smell of Sacrifices , even as it is not congruent for a Philosopher to stutter and bable ; Therefore such a Divorce is now called Adultery ; and an Oath now comes of Evil , when the Increasings of Virtues are come to their Perfection . But if these things had been the Laws of the Devil from the beginning , they had never come to such Proficiency ; for unless those things had gone before , those other had never been so easily received . Do not therefore desire the Virtue of those things , whose Use is now past : They were available indeed then when the time required , yea , if thou pleasest , now also : For now their Virtue is shewn in that same thing also , wherein we most accuse ; for that they now appear such , is their great Praise : For , unless they had nurs'd us up well and profitably , and had made us fit for the receiving of greater things , they would not now seem to us to be such . For as the Nurse's Teat , when it hath done all its Office , and brought the Child to the measure of the stronger Age , seems to be unprofitable ; and the Parents , who formerly judged the Teat to be Necessary for their Child , do afterward pursue it with very many Scorns , and usually do not only make it Uncomely in Words , but also besmear it with certain bitter Juices of Herbs , that when they cannot bridle the eager unseasonable Desire of the Child about it , they may quench it at least with those things . So also Christ said , It was of Evil ; not that he might shew the old Law to be of the Devil , but that also he might recall them more vehemently from the old Vileness : And these things he said unto his Disciples ; but unto the stupid Jews , and them that persist in the same Impiety , as with a certain Bitterness , he so compast their City , they being captivated with Fear , as that he made it inaccessible : And because he could not hereby restrain them , but that they again desir'd to see it , as Children running back to the Teat , he took it quite away , destroying it , and scattering them , most of them , far away from it ; as men usually shut up Calves from their Dams , that they may gain them to be weaned from their accustomed Food of Milk. But if the old Testament were of the Devil , he would not have forbidden * Images to be worshipped ; and to the contrary , have brought in and commanded such a Worship as this ; for the Devil would have such a thing to be done . But now we see that the Law did on the contrary ; and for that Cause also the Way of Swearing was in times permitted , † lest men should Worship Images , and Swear by them , Swear , saith he , by the true God. So the Law brought not a mean Good to men ▪ but a very great one , if it sought to bring them to solid Meat . What Evil therefore hath Swearing ? Much Evil , without question ; But now at this time , after SO GREAT MANIFESTATIONS of Power ; not then by any means . Thou wilt say ; How can it be , that the same is sometimes Good , sometimes not ? I will also produce too against thee , How is it that the same thing is sometimes good , sometimes not good ▪ Doth not all that is in the World proclaim the same , as , Educations , Arts , Fruits and all other things ? Therefore first weigh that in our own Nature : For to be carryed in one's Arms , is a good Part in the first Age , afterwards a very pittiful thing . To use Chew'd Meats in the beginning of one's Life is good , afterwards very full of Indecency and Loathsomness : To be fed with Milk & to flee to the Nourishment of the Teats , at the first is profitable and wholsome , but afterwards hurtful & noisom . Thou seest how the same things are sometimes good , according to the times , and sometimes appear to be of another Nature : For it is a comely thing for a Child to wear a Child's Vesture , but shameful for a Man. Wouldst thou also learn on the contrary , how those things are not fit for a Child , which are not for a Man ? Give a Man's Vesture to a Child , and great Laughter will follow thereupon , and greater Danger in Going , making him to reel this way and that way : Commit unto him the Care of Civil Businesses and Affairs , either to Traffique , or Sow or Reap , and again it will be very ridiculous . But what do I speak of these ? Even Man-slaughter it sel● , which Christ calls evidently a Work of the Devil , sometime in due season done , hath been praised ; as Phineas killed a Man , and it was reputed to him for Righteousness ; Abraham also was not only a Homicide , but a Parrici●e ; and Peter sl●w ●wo , but it wa●● Spiritual Wo●k : So we must not only consider the Actions , but the Time , Cause , Will and Difference of Persons , and all other Circumstances . Again , in his 〈…〉 Work , cap 5. It hath been said , Thou shalt not for●wear ; but shalt perform to the Lord thy Oath● But I say unto you , SWEAR NOT 〈…〉 ] Behold the fourth Command , ●hi●h Covetous Men account the least , because they do not account it a Sin to Swear , without which the Command of the Law cannot stand ? For unless Swearing it self be forbidden , False Oaths cannot be taken away , because out of Swearing springs up Forswearing ; for , whosoever swears often , at one time or other swears falsly ; for this Reason Solomon gives that Admonition , Accustom not thy Mouth to Swearing ; for there is much Danger therein . For , as he that accustoms himself to talk much , must needs at one time or other utter Unseasonable Words ; and he that useth frequently to strike with his Hand , cannot but sometimes strike Unjustly ; so he that accustoms himself to Swear in things Convenient , oft-times Forswears himself , even against his Will ( Custom prevailing in him ) in things superfluous ; for we can accustom our selves to any thing when we will , but we cannot turn off that Custom when we will. And what the Judgment of God is against them that swear , Solomon teacheth ; A man , saith he , that Swears much , a Wound shall not depart from his House . If then a Wound depart not from them that swear , how shall it at length depart from them that forswear . Tell me , my Friend , What dost thou get by Swearing ? For if thy Adversary did believe that thou would'st Swear well , he would never force thee to swear at all ; but because he thinks thou wilt swear falsly , therefore it is that he compels thee to swear ; and when thou hast sworn , he doth not sit down as satisfied in the Truth of thine Oath , but goes away full of Revenge , as it were in Condemnation of thy Perjury . An Oath never has a good End ; for , some will judge thou hast sworn for Covetousness ; and some too , that thou hast Forsworn : But they that are willing to suppose well of thee , although they do not believe thou hast sworn FALSLY , yet they are not able to affirm thou hast sworn IN TRUTH : But no man can maintain thou hast done RELIGIOUSLY . By Swearing therefore thou comest into Reproach with thy Enemies , and into Suspicion with thy Friends . But thou wilt say perhaps , What shall I do ; he neither doth nor will believe me , unless I Swear ? Be content rather to lose thy Money then thy Salvation ; set more by thy Soul , then by thy Estate : If thou shouldst lose any part of thy Estate , thou may'st live notwithstanding ; but if thou losest God , whereon wilt thou live ? Dost thou not know , that what thou partest Self-denyingly with for the Fear of God , thou receivest a greater Reward for it , then if thou hadst given Alms ; because , the more we bear the Gross , the more worthily are we crowned for it ? Behold , my Friend , I advise thee not to Force any man to swear ; if thou thinkest he will swear well , avoid it ; or if thou thinkest he will swear amiss , avoid it so much the rather : For although he swear well , yet thou , as far as relates to thy Conscience art become the Cause of his Perjury , because thou compellest him to take an Oath with this Intention , not barely that he should Swear , but that he should Forswear ; for if thou hadst thought he would have sworn honestly , thou wouldst not have forced him to swear at all . Oh foolish man , that compellest another to Swear ! Thou knowest not what thou doest : He , although he forswear himself , yet does it with Advantage ; but thou , without any Advantage , art found a Partaker of his Perjury . He that does not stick at Lying , does not fear Swearing ; for he that tells a Lye , goes beyond the Truth in his Heart ; and he that swears falsly , passes over God in his Words : What then is the Difference between passing over God , and going beyond the Truth , seeing God is Truth it self ? This is the only Difference , That when we Lye , we pass over the Truth in our Heart ; but when we Forswear , we pass over God in Words ; For , to men we give Satisfaction by WORDS ; to God , by CONSCIENCE . God himself , who forbad Forswearing , even he afterward commanded NOT TO SWEAR : He therefore that is not afraid to set light by the Commands of God in Swearing , will not be afraid to do the like in Forswearing . But what wouldst thou have ? Doth he fear God , or doth he not fear him ? If he be one that fears God , he will not Lye , though he be not sworn ; but if he be one that does not fear God , he cannot speak Truth , though he be sworn . Hear , ye CLERGY-MEN , who bring the HOLY GOSPELS for men to swear upon ; How can ye be secure from that Oath , who sow the Seed of Perjury ? He that brings the Fire by which an House is burnt , is he a Stranger to the Burning ? or who reaches a Sword , whereby a man is slain , is not he an Accessory to the Slaughter ? So he that gives the Opportunity of Forswearing , is a Partaker of the Perjury : If it were well done to swear , ye said rightly , that we gave them the Gospel to Swear , not to Forswear ; But now ye know , THAT IT IS A SIN EVEN TO SWEAR WELL , how can ye be acquitted that give the Occasion of Sinning against God ? Let the Fire cease , and there is no Burning ; take away the Sword , and the man is not slain ; SO TAKE AWAY SWEARING , AND THERE IS NO FORSWEARING . Be these things spoaken of them that swear by God ▪ But as for them that swear by the Elements , their Iniquity is more detestable ; for Heaven and Earth , and the rest of the Elements God made for his own Service ; not for men to swear by : For , behold , in the Law it is commanded , that they should swear by none but God : He therefore that swears by Heaven , or by the Earth , or whatsoever it is he swears by , makes a God of it ; Therefore every one commits Idolatry , who swears by any thing besides God , if it were at all lawful to swear , because he does not perform his Oaths to the Lord his God , but to the Elements : And so he commits a double Sin ; first , in that he swears ; and 2 dly , in making a God of that by which he swears , &c. Again , in Chap. 23. Homil. 43. on these words , Wo unto you Blind Guides , who say , Whosoever shall swear by the Temple , it is nothing ; but whosoever shall swear by the Gold of the Temple , he is a Debter — Many Christians ( saith he ) now adayes do so unwisely understand many things ; for lo , if there shall be any Cause , he seems to do a small matter , who swears by God ; but he that swears by the Gospel seems to have done some greater thing : To whom it may be said , Fools ! The holy Scriptures are for God , not God for the Scriptures ; for God is GREATER which sanctifieth the Gospel , then the Gospel which is sanctified of God. Again , Hom 9. on Acts of the Apostles , ch . 3. To this conduces not a little , not to Swear , and not to be Angry ; for , in not being Angry , we shall not have an Enemy ; and cast off a mans Oath , and withal thou shalt cast off those things that concern Wrath , and shalt extinguish all Anger : For Wrath and an Oath are like the Wind. We set forth sail , but there is no benefit of the Sail if there be no Wind : so if we do not cry out , nor swear , we cut the Sinnews of Wrath. Come , tell me for what Cause an Oath was introduced , and why it was allowed ? Let us tell its Original , and whence it sprung up again , and how , and by whom ; and by our Declaration we shall gratifie your Attention : For , he that doth justly , must necessarily be also studious of Wisdom ; and he that is not yet such , is not worthy to hear a Discourse : For , Abraham made Covenants , and sacrificed Sacrifices , and offered Offerings ; and as yet there was not an Oath : Whence then came in an Oath ? When Evils increased , when all things became topsiturvy , when they inclined to Idolatry ; then verily when they appear'd unfaithful , they called God to witness , as giving a Surety for Security for their Words ; for an Oath is a Suretiship , where their Behaviours have no Trust or Credit : Whereupon , first he that swears is taxed , If he have no Credit without an Oath , and the greatest Surety : And because men so little trust one another , they seek God for a Surety , not Man. Secondly , He is in the same Crime who receives an Oath , if he draw God to be a Surety for Contracts ; and say , THAT HE WILL NOT TRVST EXCEPT HE HAVE HIM . Oh monstruous thing ! Oh shameful Disgrace ! Thou a Worm , Dust and Ashes , and a Vapour ; darest thou snatch thy Lord , who art such an one for a Surety , and compellest to accept him ? Tell me , if a Fellow-Servant should say to your Children , striving among themselves , and not trusting one another , Unless the common Master become a Surety , there is no trusting ; would not many Stripes be inflicted , that he might learn , that he should make use of him as a Lord in other things , not in these ? What do I speak of a Fellow-Servant ? For , if one would have a more Venerable Man , would not the Case have Disgrace in it ? But I shall ( saith he ) therefore neither compel him , because this is also amongst men . He may say thus , Sometimes thou may'st not receive a Surety to thine . What then ? And I shall lose ( saith he ) what is given . I would not say this ; but do not thou endure that God be reproached . Therefore he which Compels hath a MORE Unavoidable Punishment then he which Swears . Likewise he also which swears when none requires ; this also is harder , that one swears for a Half-Penny , for a little Commodity , for Unrighteousness . And these things are so dangerous , when there are no Perjuries ; but if Perjuries are committed , then all things are confounded , and both he that swears , and he that receives an Oath , are the Cause . But there are some things that are not known , say they . But sore-seeing these things , thou must do nothing rashly ; but if thou shalt do any thing negligently , take the Penalty of the Inconvenience in thy own Hand ; better so to suffer Loss then otherwise . For , tell me , Thou halest a man to an Oath ; What dost thou seek ? Wouldst thou have him to Forswear ? But this is extream Folly ; for the Loss will turn upon thy own Head : It were better to lose thy Means , then that he should be lost ; wherefore thou dost this to thy own Dammage , and to God's Dishonour ; such is the Soul of a Beast and of a Wicked Man ! But I expect that he may not Forswear . Therefore believe him Without an Oath also . But there are many , say they , who without an Oath dare Defraud , who with an Oath do not do it . Thou deceivest thy self , O Man ! A Man who hath learn'd to Steal and to Wrong a man , will also trample upon an Oath often : But if he hath a Reverence in Swearing , much more in doing Unjustly . But thou wilt say , He suffers this unwillingly . Therefore he is worthy of Excuse . But what shall I say of Oaths of the Courts that are left ? for there thou canst say no such thing ; for there for Six Pence both Oaths and Perjuries are made : For , because a Thunder-Bolt doth not come down from above , and all things are not overturned , thou standest , and WILT * BIND GOD : Why ? That thou mayst get Herbs and Shoes for a small Price , thou callest him to witness . Do we therefore think we do not sin , because they are not punished ? This is the Lord's Mercy , not our Desert . Swear by thy own Child , swear by thy self ; say , So let the Officer keep from my Sides : But thou art afraid of thy Sides ; IS GOD MORE VILE , more Contemptible then thy Head ? Say , So may I not be blind ? But Christ so spareth us , that he FORBIDS US TO SWEAR EVEN BY OUR OWN HEAD . But we do so despise the Glory of God , that he is drawn every where : Ye know not what God is , and with what a Mouth he ought to be invocated . Moreover , when we speak of any Virtuous Man , we say , Wash thy Mouth , that so thou mayst be heedful . But now we vainly distract that Honourable Name , which is a Name above every Name , which is Wonderful in all the Earth , which the Devils hearing do tremble at : OH MOST CONTEMPTIBLE CUSTOM WHICH HATH DONE THAT ! Lastly , If thou shalt impose on any a Necessity of Swearing in the holy House , how horrible an Oath dost thou enjoyn , if thou dost so ? Is it that we abuse that simply , this not so ? Ought not one even to Dread when God is named ? But even among the Jews this Name was so Reverend , that it was written on the Pla●e of the Mitre , and none might bear those Letters of the Name of God , but only the High Priest : And now also we so bear his Name tenderly . If it was not lawful for all to Name God simply , how great Audaciousness is it to call it in Witness ? Tell me now , how great Madness is it ? Behold , I say ▪ and testifie to you , amend those Court-Oaths , and shew me all those that do not obey : Behold , even in your Presence I will command them that are set apart for the Ministry , the House of Prayer , and admonish and shew , THAT IT IS NOT LAWFUL FOR ANY TO SWEAR , nor otherwise neither . Let him therefore be brought to me , whosoever he be , because these things also ought to be done before us , because ye are Children . † Oh Shame ! for , it is Confusion that ye have need to be instructed in some things . Darest not thou that art initiated touch the holy Table ? But that is yet worse , thou which art initiated , darest thou touch the holy Table , and that which it is not lawful for all the Priests to touch , AND SO SWEAR ? but being gone out , thou wouldst not touch the Head of thy Child ; but touchest thou the Table , and doest not dread nor fear ? Bring such to me , I will inflict a just Punishment ; and with Joy will send both away with this Commandment , Do as you list , I * Impose this Law , NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL : What Hope is there of Salvation , when you so contemn and despise all things ? Hast thou therefore received Letters and Badges that thou shouldst lose thy Soul ? What so great thing hast thou gained , as that which thou hast lost ? Hath he forsworn ? Thou hast lost both thy self and him : But hath he not Forsworn ? Even so thou hast lost , who hast driven him to transgress the Commandment . Let us expel this Disease from the Soul : Let * us drive it now from the Court , and from all Merchants & Tradesmen's Shops . It was a greater Labour to us , do not you think , that Worldly things are corrected by the Transgressings of Divine Laws . But he doth not believe , saith he ; for I have also heard this of some , Unless I swear many Oaths they will not believe me : Thou art the Cause of these things , who swearest so promptly and easily . But if this were not , but it were manifest to all , that thou wouldst not swear , believe me , more Credit would be given to thy very BECK , then those who swear abundance of Oaths . Whom therefore do you more believe , me that do not swear , or them that do swear ? But , sayes he , thou art a Prince and a Bishop . What then , if I shall shew thee , that it is not this only ? Answer me in Truth now : If I had sworn alwayes , and at every season , what Priviledge would my Principality have ? No , thou seest that it is not for this : What gainest thou then , tell me now ? Paul Hungerd ; and do thou chuse rather to Hunger then to transgress any of God's Commandments : Why art thou so Unbelieving ? Shalt thou chuse to do and to suffer all things , that thou mayst not swear , and shall not he Reward thee ? But he feeds daily Forswearers and great Swearers , and will he give thee up to Famish , because thou hearkenest to him ? Let all men know , that NONE MAY SWEAR THAT ARE OF THIS CONGREGATION ; and hereby we may be assured , and by this Sign be distinguished from the Greeks and from all men , and not only by the Faith ( or Christian - Profession . ) Let us have this Mark from heavenly things , that we may shine with it every where , as the King's Flock . We are now known by the Mouth and the Tongue , as the Barbarians , and they that know to speak Greek ; for we are discerned from the Barbarians by the Tongue . Tell me now , How are Parrets known ? Is it not that they speak like Men ? And we also may be known , if we speak like the Apostles , and speak as the Angels : For , if any one say , Swear ; let him hear , that Christ hath commanded , EVEN NOT TO SWEAR : This sufficeth to bring in all Virtue . It is a certain Gate of Godliness , a Way bringing on unto the Love of Wisdom ( or Philosophy ) It is a certain Exercise ( or Mastery ) Let us keep these things , that we attain both present and future good things , by the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ , with whom , to the Father , with the holy Spirit , be Glory , Dominion , Honour , now and forever and ever , Amen . These Precepts were because of the Jewish Depravation ; but those perfect ones , to despise and relinquish Riches , stand manfully , lay down thy Life for Preaching ; despise all Earthly things ; have nothing to do with this present Life ; do good to them that unjustly afflict thee ; if thou be defrauded , bless thou ; if any slander thee , honour thou him ; be over all things : It was fit to hear these and such like things ; But now we discourse concerning an Oath . And it is even as if when a man should come to Philosophy , he should draw him away from those his Teachers , and make him spell with Letters and Syllables . Consider now , what a Confusion it would be for a man that hath a w●ighty Scrip , and a Staff , and a Gown to go to the Grammar-School with Boyes , and to learn the same things that they do ; would it not be a Matter of much Laughter ? but more from you ; for there is not so great a Difference betwixt Philosophy and the Elements of Speech , as between the Jewish Matters , and Ours ; but as much as is between Angels and Men. Tell me now , if any should call down an Angel from Heaven , and tell him , That he must stand and hear our Sermons , as if he must be thereby instructed , would it not be a ridiculous and confused thing ? And if it were a ridiculous thing to be yet instructed by these ; tell me now how great Condemnation , and how great Confusion were it , not to give Attention to those former ? And how then is it not Confusion , that a Christian must be instructed , that he must not swear ? But let us repress our Affections , that we be not more laught at . Let us now discourse concerning the Jewish Law to day : What is that , will he say ? Do not use thy Mouth to Swear , nor be familiar with the Holy Name . Why ? For as a Servant , if he be continually scourged , shall not be clear from Marks , so neither he that sweareth . Consider the Wisdom of that Wise Man ; He said not , Do not use thy Mind , but thy Mouth ; because he knew it to be all of the Mouth , and which is easily amended , &c. The Punishment here that is opposed to it , tells us , that it is not Perjury , but Swearing , that is here to be removed ; Therefore TO SWEAR IS A SIN . Verily the Soul is full of such Wounds and Scars . But if thou swear because he doth not believe ; say thou , Believe , or if thou wilt not , swear by thy self ; and I do not say , that thou art contrary to the Law-giver : Far be it ; for , saith he , Let your Word be YEA , YEA , and NAY , NAY ; that herein I may condescend to you , and bring you to this , that I may free you from this Tyrannical Custom . Will you learn why they allowed them of old to Swear , not to Forswear ? It was because they swore by Idols : You must not be confounded in these Laws , in which they that were weak were conversant . For , if I now take a Greek , I do not forthwith enjoyn him this ; but now I admonish him , That Christ must be known : But a Believer , and one who hath learned him , and heard , if he should use the same Indulgence and Liberty , as the Greek , What Profit and Advantage would there be ? Christ hath made a Law , that NONE SWEAR ; Tell me now what is done about this Law , lest perchance coming again , as the Apostle saith , I do not spare . We hope none will dispute whether Chrysostom was against All Swearing , or that he understood Christ's Doctrine as we do ; yet no Body can Promise for them that endeavour to squeeze Swearing out of Christ's SWEAR NOT AT ALL. We have been the larger in this Authority , partly because he excellently disputes it ; and partly , because our Case needs it ; and lastly , to show Christians their Apostacy , that they may reform . Jerom. Libr. Epistol . part 3. Tract . 2. Epist . 2. Of Obedience , Knowledge and Revenge . LII . Thou saidst , if I mistake not , That on this Account thou mayst justly render Evil for Evil , and oughtest to swear with them that swear , because the Lord sometimes swore , and rendred Evil for Evil. First , I know that all things are not fit for us , that are Servants , which are agreeable to the Master , &c. I know the Lord oftentimes swore , who hath forbidden us to Swear ▪ Nor must we rashly speak Evil of , or Blaspheme in this , that he forbad another what he did himself ; because it may not be said , the Lord swore as Lord , whom none forbad to swear : It is not lawful for us as Servants to Swear ; because we are Forbidden by the Law of our Lord to Swear . But lest we should suffer an Offence by his Example , since the time he forbad Us to Swear , neither did he himself ever Swear , &c. Upon Zachary , Book 2. Chap. 8. And love ye not a False Oath ] — As to the Lord 's commanding in the Gospel , But I say unto you , Swear not at all ; but let your Word be YEA , YEA ; NAY , NAY : He that shall Never Swear , can never Forswear : But he that sweareth , let him hear that which is written , Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in a vain thing ; for 〈◊〉 these things I hate , saith the Lord , according to the words of Malachy , saying , And ye did all that I hate . In Precepts which belong to Life , and are clear , we ought not to ●eek an Allegory , lest we seek a Knot in Rush , as sayes the Comick . On Jeremy 4. Book 1. chap. 3. And thou shalt Swear the Lord liveth in Truth and Righteousness , and Judgment , &c. And how doth the Gospel forbid us to Swear ? But ●ere it is said for a Confession , thou shalt Swear , and for the Condemnation of Idols , by which Israel swore . Lastly , Offences are taken away ●d he sweareth by the Lord ; and what is said in the Old Testament , the Lord liveth , is an Oath , to the condemning of all the Dead , by whom all Idolatry sweareth . And it is also to be minded , that an Oath hath these Companions , Truth , Judgment and Righteousness ; if these be wanting , it is not Swearing , but Forswearing . Also on Matth. Book 1. chap. 5. But I say unto you , Swear not at all , neither by Heaven , &c. The Jews had alwayes this Custom of Swearing by the Elements , as the Prophet's Speech often reproves them . He that sweareth , either reverenceth or loveth him by whom he sweareth : In the Law it is commanded , that we must not swear but by the Lord our God. The Jews Swearing by the Angels , and the City Jerusalem , and the Temple , and the Elements , did worship the Carnal Creatures with the Honour and Observance of God. Lastly , consider , that here the Saviour forbad not to swear by God , but by Heaven , &c. and this was allowed by the Law , as to little ones , that as they offered Sacrifices to God , lest they should sacrifice to Idols , so also they were suffered to Swear by God ; Not that they did this rightly , but that it was better to yield that to God then to Devils . But the Truth of the Gospel doth not receive an Oath , since every faithful Word is for an Oath . Those of after Times , that in some respect allow of an Oath , ground most upon the Authority of Augustine , as he from the larger acceptation of the Word Swear and Oath , which he extends to that which Nazianzen ( as before ) calls but a firm Faithfulness joyned to his words , which yet he will not admit of , but to a Paul , a Planter of Churches , speaking by the Spirit of God to them he had begotten in the Gospel , in Danger to be seduced by False Apostles , and to sleight him , and seek a Proof of Christ speaking in him , compelled by them to seem a Fool in glorying , and so driven , and no otherwise , to seem a Swearer too , yea , even to an Augustine , and so to compel him ( even Augustine ) to say , It is a hard Question ; I have alwayes avoided it . But though he durst not condemn it altogether out of Reverence to the Apostle , which he thought used it , because of the Form of Speech ; yet to shew that he did little encourage men to practise it , as any Act at all of the Worship of God , much less an August Act , He saith , That False Swearing is Deadly ; True Swearing , Dangerous ; No-Swearing , Safe ; God only Swears Safely , who cannot be deceived . Augustine de Sermone Domini , Serm. 28. LIII . And Augustine himself confesseth , That it was usual to alledge Christianity for not Swearing , bringing in one Saying , It is not lawful for a Christian to Swear , when an Oath is required of him ; Lam a Christian ; it is not lawful to swear . And on Psalm 88. as allowing the Unlawfulness , he saith , It is well that God hath forbidden men to Swear , lest by Custom of it ( inasmuch as we are apt to Mistake ) we commit Perjury . There is none but God can safely Swear , &c. And in that very Book , which is alledged for it , he saith , I say unto you , SWEAR NOT AT ALL , lest by Swearing ye come to a Facility of Swearing ; from a Facility to a Custom ; and from a Custom ye fall into Perjury . But if any think that Book makes most for them , let them consider the Author hath retracted it ; for what Cause let himself speak in the end of his Book of Retractations : For sure , that which we have here cited out of it , agreeth with his other Works , which contain much more to this Purpose . Where , sayes he , wouldst thou chuse to walk ? Upon the Brink of a Precipice , or far from it ? I think far from it . So he which swears , walks in the Border , and walketh with unsure Feet , because humane : If thou stumblest , down thou goest ; if thou fallest , down thou goest . We would fain know , if a most August Act of God's Worship be nighest the Pit's Brink , or farthest from it ? for there all ought to chuse to walk ; in whose Way they that walk , walk safely ; their Place is sure , and their Foot-steps shall not slide ; but the Wicked's Feet are in slippery Places , where Augustine says , Swearers walk . Consider what he saith on those words of Christ in Mat. 5. It is the Righteousness of the Pharisees , not to Forswear ; This he confirmeth , who forbiddeth to swear , which * belongeth to the Righteousness of the Kingdom of Heaven : For , as he which doth not speak , cannot speak a Lye , so he cannot Forswear , which doth not Swear . He goes on to excuse Paul , and sayes , That an Oath is not among good things , but among † evil things , and used for the Infirmity of others , which is Evil , from which we pray , that we may be daily delivered . But there is this to be said for Augustine , and some others after him , that he and they write not clearer in a Point so constantly maintained ; His Horizon then was over-casting apace . Apostacy , as a mighty Torrent , did not only swell and beat against the Simplicity of the Christian-Doctrine and Discipline ; but like an Unruly and impetuous Sea broak down the Banks of Primitive Society , and made way for all sort of Superstition , worldly Interest & Fraud ; that , to say no more then he did , was to incur , perhaps , the Censure of the Grandees of his Age , who had joyn'd Earthly Policy to Christian-Religion , and cast off the Blessed Yoak of their Self-denying Lord , to swim in the Delicious Liberty of the World : A Time full of such Circumstances as seem'd to conspire the Return of Oaths , that were not dead , but retired only : For as men grew False and Distrustful , Truth became burdensom , and Yea and Nay no Security with them ; and therefore declin'd , or rather exil'd them their Government ; Old Judaism or Gentilism pleas'd them better . 'T was harder Living that Watchful Life that was sufficient to credit a Yea or Nay , then to take an Oath , that dependeth upon the saying of so many Words only : This was considerable , and made Swearing then , and continues it grateful to our very Times . But sad it is , that Oaths rid thus in Sate , while Integrity went Barefoot , and Evangelical Yea and Nay turn'd off for a Non-sufficient , and that too , not without Fines , Prisons , and a great deal of Reproach . However , we must acknowledge , that the Gravity and Christian Care of this Person , and other his Contemporaries , appeared in not only disswading , but deterring those Ages from the Brink ( for so he calls Swearing at all ) and turning their Faces after the Woman , now on her Flight into the Wilderness : During all which Time , the Witnesses , though fewest in Number , and mystically cloathed in Sack-cloth , forbore not to prophesie even in this Particular . And we hope , having no certain Knowledge to the contrary , that most of them , at least that were Men fearing God , and serving him according to what they knew and in that Manner they were perswaded was most acceptable to him . And as Irenaeus said of the Poets and Philosophers , These Men , every one seeing that which was connatural from Part of the Divine-sown-Reason , spoak excellently , and where right and consistent with themselves , they are ours , Iren. lib. 5. cap. 18. So we sincerely declare of Men differing from us , that as we desire the Good of all , so we can own the Good in all , and the Truth in all , and receive it from them , though in other Respects our Adversaries ; and would have all to do the like with us and each other : And howbeit our Adversaries may have hard Thoughts of some of the Persons our Matter leads us to instance , as Men interessed in the Doctrine and Practices of those darker Times they lived in , and of us for making Use of such for Authorities ; yet we hope they would also judge it an hard and very cruel Thing to repute them utter Cast-awayes . And though we know that Men differ within themselves , and all of them more or less from the Truth , yet since there may be some Truth and Sincerity , we cannot but acknowledge and embrace : And we hope , the Reasons and Authorities of others they bring , and the Concessions and Confessions they make , may , and indeed ought to be of Weight in that Point , at least to shew , that it is no new , strange or unreasonable Thing for us to refuse Oaths . And though some might with a Mixture of Sup●rstition and W●ll-worship , undertake and maintain that Strictness and Preciseness , which some of the holy Ancients by the Spirit of Truth were led to practise ( the ancient Hist●ries of whom , from Eye-Witnesses , as the Word signifies , of some of them , we in a great Part believe ) And some later more Enlightened and Zealous Men , taking Offence thereat , but especially at the Hypocrisie and Abomination , palliated by such fair Pretences , have streined much in Opposition to that Evangelical Doctrine , yet is the Doctrine nevertheless a Truth in it self . Nor can we believe that all that were accounted Hereticks , were out of the Catholick or Universal Church ; for the Word Catholick signifies Vniversal , containing all that are in the Church ( that is in God the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ ) in all Times , and those were not all of the same Mind in all Things , as may be read in the Holy Scriptures , and also in Eusebius and other Ecclesiastical Histories , where Men are commended for Holiness and Virtue , yet at much Difference in some Things . Synesius , though he believed not the Resurrection , was chosen to minister , and afterward was made a Bishop , the Charity of Christians was so great in that Age. And some accounted Hereticks , suffered Martyrdom , that are commended or excused by Eusebius ; one in particular that dyed with Polycarpus , and another called Asclepius , called Marcionites . See also the beginning of his eighth Book concerning the Divisions among them that afterward suffered for the Testimony of the Universal or Catholick Truth ; nor can we receive their Judgment , that branded those with the Name of Hereticks , Pelagians , &c. who denyed Swearing in those declining Ages , and suppressed their Works under that Name and Aspersion only ; not allowing them to speak for themselves to us of latter Times . We see how unjustly we our selves are aspersed in almost every Doctrine we hold , and that under Pretence of serving God ; particularly , with seeking to work our Salvation by our own Power , and when they have made us this Belief , they bestow Pelagianism upon it ( for Fathers have Right to name their own Children ) whereas of all other People , we especially disclaim our own Ability , and wait to be renewed and guided by the Spirit of Christ , and to be found in his Righteousness , and therefore on the other hand reputed Phanaticks , Enthusiasts , &c. and mocked for being moved by the Spirit , following the Light , &c. But let their Example or Authority be as it will , or however they were in other Respects , the Doctrine of the ancient primitive Fathers , and Practice of that Church , as also the Doctrine of famous Men among themselves , neither of which Sort dare they condemn for Hereticks , do sufficiently defend them from the Aspersion of Heresie in that Particular : And so we shall come to our remaining Testimonies , it being our Business , not to maintain every one of their Principles we cite ; but this Doctrine of Swear not at all , to have had the Voice of several Ages to confirm it . The ancient Waldenses , reputed to have continued Vncorrupted with the Grosness of the Apostacy , ever since the Apostles Times ( see their History in P. Perin , S. Moreland and Bp Vsher de Succes . ) we have good Cause to say , denyed the taking of any Oath in what Sense the Primitive Christians and Fathers refused , and that was altogether . Sure , their Enemies charg'd them with it for above three hundred Years , and we cannot find they then denyed the Charge : We suppose none will attempt to prove they did ; Though one of our Adversaries joyns with theirs , traducing them for Perjurers , and with them abuses that worthy and learned Man Bp. Vsher , who defends them from that improbable and contradictory Aspersion , of Lying and Forswearing , and yet of Denying to Swea● ; who sayes , that they were as far from Lying and Forswearing , as their Enemies were from Mod●sty and Truth , which did appear in that they were charg'd by them , Not to swear at all : Peruse that part of his Book de Successione , where he treats of them ; and where also you may read of their Succession , how that the Syrians & Armenians came out of the East into Thracia , thence in process of Time into Bulgaria and Sclavonia , thence into Italy and Lumbardy , and were called by several Names , of several People , or at several Times , as Manichees , Waldenses , Albingenses , Cathari or Puritans , Patrins , Publicans , Humiliati , &c. who were charged with denying Swearing ; And how that several of the better sort of the Clergy , and of the nobler Laity ( who refused the present Use of Baptism and the Lord's Supper ) were burnt under the Name of Manichees . Suarez also reckons-up the Catharists , Alba. Bagnald , and others which Prateolus and Castro relate , the Waldenses , the Anabaptists , &c. And which Jansenius also out of Augustine , Epist . 89. the Pelagians out of Hilary Syracusanus , Epist . 88. Bernard homil . 69. on Cant. The Fathers , sayes he , seem to favour this Opinion , especially Basil , hom . in Psal . 14. Chrysostom hom . 19.78 . ad popul . and 17. on Mat And Theophylact on Mat. 5. Origen Tract 35. Mat. Tertullian de Idololat . Clem. Rom. l. 6. Constitut . Apost . Maldonat on Mat. 5.34 . saith , the Anabaptists , the Wickliffists , some Syracusans , a kind of Pelagians , denyed Swearing , and that Origen was not far off that Opinion . Here the Hereticks , as accounted , and the Fathers are reckoned up together , as holding the same Opinions : Sure in this they were not Hereticks ; for then the Fathers should be condemned with them , and called Hereticks too , as well as they , or else these Men are partial and contradictory . On Jam. 5. of the words of the Apostle , thus , Ser. 30. Perhaps it is meet for the Lord alone to swear , who cannot forswear . And so he goes on to shew how hard it is for men to avoid Perjury . In Serm. 3. ad competentes : Let them not only abstain from Perjury , but from Swearing ; because he doth not Lye who saith , A man Swearing much , shall not depart from Iniquity , and the Plague shall not depart from his House , Eccles . 23. But if it were an August Act of the Worship of God , he would on the contrary have exhorted at least , if not commanded them to swear , which we never read any Command for , but in Opposition to Idols , even in the time of the Old-Testament-Writings , as the Testimonies before alledged declare , and in the time of the New , no Command at all ; but on the contrary , a Prohibition by the Lord himself , and another by his Apostle , nor any Example ; for that of Paul's was but an Asseveration , as by the Testimonies already produced , and to be alledged appears : For besides those of the Fathers and other Doctors , of late Bp. Ro. Sanderson in his Oxford Lectures , shows , that is sometimes used in the Form of an Oath which is no Oath ; and so he defendeth Joseph from breaking God's Command , that is , not to have sworn so ; and therefore not to have sinned , but to have used an Asseveration , as if he had said , as sure as Pharaoh liveth ye are Spyes : So may Paul be defended against the breaking Christ's Command , as if he had said , as sure as ye , or as some Greek Copies have it , We Rejoyce in Christ Jesus : For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which they translate , I protest by , hath sometimes the same signification that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , yea , hath , as may be seen in Scapula ; For he sayes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( translated , I protest by ) is a Particle , sometimes of granting and affirming ; sometimes it is put for verily , indeed ; and he interprets 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the same word , which is translated yea , which Scapula saith , is also sometimes used in Swearing , and cites Aristophanes and Xenophon for it : And that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used also in Composition , for affirming , as in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , profusus , lavishing ; which cannot signifie Swearing . And how easily might the Transcriber , through that common Use , alter a Letter , being of the same signification , seeing in that very Verse , in some Copies , there is not only in another word an Alteration of a Letter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , our and your , but in another word five Letters , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , referring it to the Verse before ; yea , a whole Word of Seven Letters added , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And of about Thirty Greek Copies there are not Two of them that agree , but they interfer , some in one place , some in another ; insomuch that there are Thousands of various Readings , which many of the ancient Fathers diversly follow , some one , some another . See the ( various Lections ) Variae Lectiones Graec. Nov. Test . in Bp. Walton's Polyglot , vol. 6. also the Preface and Beza's Epistle therein : And consider how hard a thing it is to construe , limit , and lay the Interpretation of the Sayings of Christ and his Apostles , and the Weight of a Doctrine , and that as men would avoid Penalties too , upon a Letter ( which yet alters not the Signification ) upon Credit of the Transcribers , especially in Paul's Epistles , wherein Peter sayes , many things are hard to be understood , and wrested by the Vnlearned , which he must needs intend in such Learning as he himself had , and that was not of Worldly Academics ; but from the Holy Spirit . And these words , which are joyned with that Particle , are not such words as men use in Swearing , but for a Ground of his Fidelity , and a Remedy against their Incredulity , and questioning of the Weight of his Assertions , amongst whom other Teachers were preferred , and who compelled him to speak as a Fool , he says , even to commend himself . So that it is not strange , if to them , and not to other Churches , he used such forcible Asseverations from the Testimony that they had of him , of the Truth and Work of Christ in ●im , and the Record thereof upon his Soul , and his Joy therein , that he spoak the Truth to them , and did not lye ; so that he brings his Perfections against their Imperfections , to gain Belief , which can amount to no more then a Voluntary Condescension for the time being , and cannot prove or countenance a Compulsory , Promissory , Formal , Ceremonial Oath to be exacted or taken up for the future . But Mark , that the word Oath , or Swear , used both by Christ and the Apostle James in their Prohibition , is never used by Paul in his Asseverations , neither doth he ever apply it to Brethren ; b●t speaking to them of the Oath that was in old time , and of men ( indefinitely ) that use to swear , he saith , Men swear , and to them an Oath is for Confirmation ; that is , as among the Jews and Heathen ; he doth not say to Vs , or to You ; or We , or Ye swear , who are not in Strife , which , if had that been true , it might have stood the present Oath-Advocates in stead : So that such as will have it , that Paul swore , must being the word swear , or Oath , to prove it ; But if they could ▪ his Example then were not enough to invalidate to us now the Command of Christ , for the Abolishing of Swearing , no more then his shaving his Head at Cenchrea , because he had a Vow ; or his purifying himself in the Temple , and offering with the four Jews that had a Vow ; or his circumcising of Timothy , because of the Jews , can warrant us to the Observation of those legal Rites and Ceremonies , which so long since are not only dead , but deadly , as the Fathers and Bp. Sanderson distinguish about them . And those that would therefore bring in Swearing and Vows , might under the same Colour , bring in sacrificing and circumcising too . LIV. ISIDORUS PELUSIOTA , who as Euagrius Schol. writes , lived at the same time with Cyrill , and that the Fame of his Sayings and Doings was spead far and near , and rise in every man's Mouth , that He led on Earth the Life of an Angel , and wrote many notable Works , amongst which are his Epistles , in one whereof he writeth against Swearing thus ; If thou art of our Flock , and art ordered under a good Shepherd , deny the Nature of Wild Beasts , and obey his Voice that Forbiddeth to Swear AT ALL. Moreover not to Swear is , not to require an Oath of another : Now , if thou wilt not swear , neither require thou an Oath of another , for two Causes ; either because he who is asked loves Truth , or on the contrary to Lye : If the man speaks Truth usually , he will alwayes speak Truth without an Oath ; but if he is a Lyar , he will Lye , though he Swear : Therefore for both these Causes , one ought not to require an Oath . LV. CHROMATIUS , Bishop of Aquileia , about or not long after that time , upon these words , But I say unto you , Swear not at all , paraphraseth thus ; The Law ( saith he ) given by Moses received a Growth , Proficiency or Perfection by the Grace of the Doctrine of the Gospel . In the Law it was commanded , not to Forswear ; but in the Gospel NOT TO SWEAR : Which very thing heretofore the Holy Ghost did premeditate that Solomon should command or teach , saying , Let not thy Mouth use to Swear . And again , As a Servant beaten continually , is not lessened from the Paleness of his Stripes ; so every one that sweareth , shall not be purg'd from Sin. Wherefore it is not meet for us to Swear AT ALL : For , what need is there for any of us to Swear , seeing that it is not at all LAWFUL FOR US TO LYE ; whose Words ought always to be so True , so very Faithful , that they may be accounted for Oaths . And therefore the Lord not only forbids us to Forswear , BUT EVEN TO SWEAR ; that we may not seem to speak Truth ONLY when we swear ; That we may not think that those whom he hath appointed to be True in all their Speech , may have Liberty to Lye without an Oath : For this is the Cause of an Oath , Because that every one who sweareth , doth swear to this End , that he will speak that which is true , and therefore the Lord would have no Difference to be between their Oath and their Word : Because as in an Oath there ought to be no Perfidiousness , so in our Words there ought to be no Lye , in that both Perjury and Lying is condemned by the Punishment of the Judgment of God , seeing the Scripture saith , The Mouth which Lyeth killeth the Soul : Therefore whosoever speaketh Truth , sweareth ; because it is written , A Faithful Witness doth not Lye. And therefore holy Scripture ( not without Cause ) often relates , that God hath sworn , because whatsoever is spoaken of God , who is true , and cannot lye , is counted for an Oath , because all which he speaks is true — Now we find God sometimes swearing , but it is for the Perfidiousness of the Jewish Infidelity , who think that all Truth consists in the Credit of an Oath ; Therefore also God would swear , that they who would not trust God speaking , might trust him when he swore : Therefore our Lord saith , Ye have heard it said of old , Thou shalt not Forswear ; But I say unto you , SWEAR NOT AT ALL , &c. LVI . THEODORET on Deut. 6. pag. 57. Why doth the Law command , that they should swear by God ? Lest they should swear by false Gods : For he said the same by the Prophet , If thou takest the Names of Baalam out of thy Mouth , and shalt swear , The Lord liveth with Truth : And here , when he had said , Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God , and him only shalt thou serve , and shalt cleave unto him and shalt swear by his Name , he subjoyned , Ye shall not w●k ●ter other or strange Gods , which are of the Gods of the Nations , which are round about you . Lyra saith the same . LVII . Ordinary Gloss . on Mat. 5.37 . hath this Sentence , A Faithful Speech ought to be accounted for an Oath . LVIII . Johannes Damascenus , Parallel . lib. 3. cap. 16. bringeth a Testimony of one Nilus , against Swearing . There was one nam'd NILUS in Aegypt , a Martyr , mention'd by Eusebius . Another Bishop of Constantinople , spoaken of by Socrates , both very famous ; the words are these : It is not profitable to Swear , but very pernicious , and execrable and abominable : Wherefore hereafter make an End of Swearing ; nor commit such a thing , as that thy Tongue use Oaths . In the same place he alledgeth Testimonies out of J. Chrysostom , Hom. 13. ad Populum Antiochenum . LIX . CYRILL , whom Evagrius Scholast . styles Renown'd , in his Commentary on Jeremy the 4th ; And shall swear , the Lord liveth in Truth , and in Judgment , and in Righteousness ; saith , Let us look , who swear , how we do not swear in Judgment , but without Judgment ; so that our Oaths are by Custom rather then Judgment ; we are lashed therefore , and the Word reproving that same thing , saith , and if he shall swear the Lord liveth in Truth , in Righteousness and Judgment : For we know it is said in the Gospel by the Lord unto his Disciples , But I say unto you , that you Swear NOT AT ALL. But let us consider also this Saying , and if God grant , both shall be rewarded : For , perhaps , it first behoveth to swear in Truth , in Judgment , and in Righteousness ; and after one hath made Proficiency , he may be made worthy NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL , but may have YEA , not needing Witnesses that IT IS SO ; and may have NAY , not needing Witnesses that IT IS VERILY NOT So. And sayes Cyrill further , Let none because he hears that God swore to Abraham , use to swear : For , as that which is called Wrath in God , is not Wrath ; nor doth it signifie a Passion , but a Punishing Power , or some such like Motion ; so neither is Swearing SWEARING : For , God doth not Swear ; but shews the Certainty , that what he saith shall come to pass , certainly : For the Oath of God is his own Word , filling the Hearers , and making every one believe , that what he hath promised and said , shall surely come to pass . LX. CASSIODORUS , on Psalm 94. saith , Hence it is , that men are forbidden to swear , because by their own Power they cannot perform their Promises , This Cassiodorus was Famous about the year 500. LXI . OLYMPIODORUS was also Famous about the same time , who on Eccl. 8. saith thus , Keep the Mouth of the King , and do not study concerning the Word of the Oath of God , but go far from the Face of it , viz. of an Oath ; that is , Refrain and depart from it , and do not AT ALL endure to take an Oath into thy Mouth . LXII . ISIDORUS HISPALENSIS was famous about that time , and liv'd with him they calld St. Gregory , who disliked the bringing in the Title of Universal Bishop , and also the Use of Swearing : his Words are these , Many are slow to believe which are moved at the Belief of the Word : But they do grieveously offend , who compel them to Swear that speak to them . LXIII . ANTIOCHUS said to be a Man famous for Holiness & Learning , living in Palestine about the time of Heraclius , the Emperor , that was about the Year 614. In his Pandects of Scripture , Hom. 62. concerning Swearing saith thus in the Greek ( which see ; for the Latine Translation is in some things imperfect ) The old Law , as giving Laws to Children , which for their Age were not capable of more holy Doctrine , not unseasonably commands , To Swear nothing to their Neighbour in Deceit ; But us our Lord and Saviour commandeth , NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL , neither out of Season , nor in Season ; for he saith to us , Let your YEA be YEA , and your NAY , NAY ; for whatsoever is more , is of the Evil. And saith he to the first People of a Stiff Neck , I commanded , Thou shalt not forswear , but shalt perform thy Vows unto the Lord , as to them that were Hard-hearted and Disobedient to me : But to you that believe in me , to whom I have given Power to become the Sons of God , that are born again of the holy Spirit , I command , NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL , neither little , nor great Oaths ; that a Difference may plainly appear who are Bastards , and who true Sons . Let us therefore , Dear Friends , fear him , who hath vouchsafed us so much Honour , even the Lord and Father , with all Fear ; as sincere ingenuous Servants let us keep his Commandments , NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL , lest he say as in Isa . 1. I have nourish'd and brought up Children , and they have rebell'd against me : Let 's not be Sleighters and Despisers of this Commandment of the Lord ; for those things that are said and done without an Oath , are more credited by Men , and more pleasing to God. LXIV . In the next Century , BEDA , an English man , the most famous of those Dayes , and styl'd Venerable , in his Exposition upon these words , Before all things , my Brethren , swear not , &c. saith , Because he desires entirely to draw out the deadly Poison of the Tongue in his Hearers , he forbad to detract or slander any man , or to judge his Neighbour , who forbad to grieve in Adversities , which are open Sins ; he adds this also ( seeming light to some ) that he may take away the Custom of Swearing . For that this also is not to be esteem'd a light matter , plainly appears to them , that carefully consider that Sentence of the Lord , where he faith , Of every idle Word that men shall speak , they shall give Account in the Day of Judgment . [ That ye fall not into Condemnation . ] Therefore ( saith he ) I restrain you from the Fault of Swearing , lest by Swearing frequently true things , ye fall sometimes also into Forswearing ; but stand so far from the Vice of Forswearing , that you will not Swear neither , but by the greatest Necessity . But he also falls under the Judgment of Guilt , who although he never Forswear , yet sweareth true oftener then there is need ; namely , he offends in the very Idleness of superfluous Speech , and he offendeth the Judge , which forbad both every unprofitable Word and OATH . From this chief man among the English of that time , it is manifest that this was the Doctrine they then held , as further appears from H. Spelman , that learn'd English Knight , in his Book of Brittish Councils , Canons , &c. in the Exceptions or select Collections of Egbert , Arch Bishop of York , Artic. 19. That no Priest wha●soever may swear an Oath , but let him speak all things simply , in Purity ond Truth . And in the same Author and Council , Art. 18. the chief of Monasteries , Priests & Deacons should say ( without Swearing ) when they were to purge and clear themselves , only thus , I speak the Truth in Christ , I lye not . And in pag. 259. In England , at the Council of Berghamst●d about the Year 750. Artic. 17. That a Bishop or a King's Word or Affirmation without an Oath is irrefragable . This agrees with Blastaris Canons above mention'd . And at this Day in some Countries , as the Electoral Arch-Bishops in Germany , of Colen , Mentz and Triers , and many Noble Men in their Station , speak without an Oath , upon their Honour , &c. Certainly then it is much below the Nobility of true Christians in their Spiritual Station to Swear , as Chrysostom and the Ancients have well observ'd . LXV . HAIMO lived about 840. who on the Revelations saith , That it 's lawful only for Men and Angels to swear ; but to Men it is forbidden . LXVI . AMBROSIUS ANSBERTUS , Gallus Presbyter : Seeing the Lord cohibits the Faithful from every Oath , saying , Swear not at all , neither by Heaven , &c. but let your Yea be Yea , and your Nay , Nay ; what abounds more then them is from the Evil : Who stretcheth out his Hand to Heaven , and sweareth by him that liveth forever , Are not his Sayings and Actings set for Examples for Believers to imitate ? But only in that men are often deceived by an Oath ; but he , who is the Truth , never is deceived ; for he would not have prohibited men from an Oath if he had not known Sin to be in it : For , what do we understand to be figured by the Hand of the Angel , unless ( as before noted ) a Dispensation of Redemption of Mankind ? For , his Hand is the Operation of our Salvation ; although also , if it may be so said , the same Son be his Right-Hand , as when the Word of the Father speaketh , he sheweth that he is the Word of the Father . LXVIII . THEOPHYLACT , Arch-Bishop of the Bulgarians , whom some place in the Ninth Century , others after ; to be sure very Famous ; being as it were their Apostle ; in his Comment on Mat. 5. saith , To swear , or adjure more to Yea or Nay , is of the Devil . Moreover ( sayes he ) if thou shouldst say , That the Law also given to Moses was evil , because it commandeth to swear , Learn , that then it was not Evil to swear ; but after Christ , it is Evil , as also to be circumcised ; and in brief , whatsoever is * Jewish : For , it is convenient for a Child to suck , but not at all for a Man. LXIX . Barnard ; The Truth needs not an Oath . De modo bene vivendi , Ser. 32. De perjurio . A Faithful Word holds the Place of an Oath ; as he cannot Lye who doth not Speak , so he cannot Forswear who doth not undertake to Swear : grounded on Matthew 5. LXX . PASCHALIUS RATBERTUS on Mat. 5. Ye have heard , &c. In this place , as also every where in those things , the Perfection in Righteousness is renew'd ; for by what every one swears , he either worships , loveth or fears it ; Therefore by the Law , for the carnal People it was lawful to swear by God , and this was allow'd as to little Ones , that as they offer'd Sacrifices to God , lest they should offer them to Idols ; so also it was permitted to them to swear by God : Not that they did this well ; but because it was better to give it to God then to Devils . LXXI . OTHO BRUNFELSIUS on Mat. 5. But let your Word be Yea , &c. That is the Duty of a Christian man , to be so sure in his Words , that being Unsworn he surpass any Jew or Heathen , swearing by all his holy Things , namely in these bare Words only , Yea , Yea ; Nay , Nay : Such Faithfulness & Constancy is commended in good men by prophane Authors ; Read Seneca , Cicero , Valerius Maximus . But thou wilt say , I shall not be trusted , unless I swear : Even so it is permitted by the Popes , to swear good Words in a good Cause . But such Distrust ought not to reign in the Faithful : But if we trust not Words , what should an Oath do ? It is a Proverb , None is less trusted then he which shall often swear . Moreover , Who gave Power to Popes , to break the Command of God ? LXXII . DRUTHMARUS on Math. 5. Lest the Jews should Swear by Idols Names , the Lord suffered them to swear by his own Name . — The Lord taught us Perfection , that such Trust is to be among Christians , that there should be no need to interpose the Name of God for Witness . LXXIII . JANSENIUS on Matth. 5. If all Christians were such as they ought to be , it would certainly be needless both to require and take an Oath — I think this more Christian ; and not to Swear at all , nor Compel to Swear , more Spiritual — Yea and Amen are the same , 2 Cor. 1. not Swearing , but Affirming : So Christ swore not . See Bernard , Hom. 69. in Cant. De more bene vivendi , Serm. 32. LXXIV . ALBERTUS MAGNUS , on Mat. 5. Swearing is by Indulgence . Thomas Aquinas cites Rabanus on Mat. 5. LXXV . Alex. de Ales citeth HUG . CARDINAL , saying , The Lord Forbad Swearing , lest any should desire to swear as a Good Thing , also that none might fall into Perjury . LXXVI . REMIGIUS on Rom. 1. Who never Swears , never Forswears . LXXVII . RUFFINUS on Psal . 14. Not to Swear at all is of Perfect Men. See also Smaragdus on Mat. 5. Titelmannus on Psal . 14. Brugensis on Mat. 5. Ludolphus Carthusianus , vita Christi , part . 2. cap. 12. Rupertus , de operibus spiritus sancti , fol. 453. Baptista Folengius , on Psal . 15. Nic. Lyra and Ordinary Gloss on Mat 5. LXXVIII . EUTHYMIUS ZAGABONUS , on Matth. 5. p. 43. saith thus ; Again , ye have heard , that it hath been said to them of old time , Thou shalt not Forswear , &c. but I say unto you , Swear not at all , &c. Now the old Law saith , Thou shalt not Forswear , but shalt offer to the Lord thine Oaths ; which he added that he might put Fear into the Swearer , that he should not Forswear , knowing that God , which knows all things , undertakes the Oath . [ But I say unto you , Swear not at all ] For he that easily sweareth , sometimes perchance may Forswear , by the Custom of Swearing ; but he that Swears by no means , will never Forswear . Besides , thou that swearest , so be thou do not Forswear , thou observest the Worship of God ; but Swearing by no means , thou dost promote it : And the other is the part of mean and imperfect Philosophy ; but this of that which is the highest and perfect . The other , Thou shalt not Forswear , is written in the Book of Exodus ; but this , Thou shalt restore to the Lord thine Oaths , in the Book of Deuteronomy , but in other words : Now he commanded this , lest they should swear by Gods of a false Name . Again , Not to Swear , and not to require an Oath , comes to the same thing : For , how canst thou induce thy Brother unto that , which thou avoidest thy self ; if so be that thou art a Lover of thy Brother , and not rather of Money ? Nor by Heaven ; for it is the Throne of God , &c. Lest they should think , that he forbad to swear by God only , in saying , By God , he adds also other kind of Oaths , by which then the Jews did swear ; for he that sweareth by these things , sweareth again by God , who fills these things , and rules them ; for they have these things in Honour for him , and not for themselves ; for he saith by the Prophet , Heaven is my Throne , and the Earth is my Foot-stool ; the Prophet manifesting by this , that God filleth all things : Do not I fill Heaven and Earth ? David also saith , The City of the Great King. Neither by thy Head. Therefore thou shouldst not swear the meanest Oath ; I say , even by thy own Head , lest thou proceed to greater , or by any other manner ; for the Creature is also the Possession of God ; And again , the Oath is made by God , who hath it ( the Creature ) in his Power ; for , although it ( the Head ) be made thine , yet it is not thy Work , which is manifest from this , That thou canst not make one Hair white or black . But let your Words be Yea , Yea ; Nay , Nay , &c. Let your Speech be when ye affirm , Yea ; and when ye deny , Nay ; and use only these for , or instead of Oaths to Confirmation , and no other then Yea and Nay ; what is adjoyned besides these , he calleth an Oath . Quest . But if an Oath be of the Devil , how did the old Law permit 〈◊〉 : Answ . Because the Sacrifices of Living Creatures were also of Evil , and by the Deceit of Idols ; yet the Law permitted them , because of the Infirmity of the Hebrews : For , whereas they were Gluttons and Smell-Feasts , they lov'd the Sacrifices of Idols ; and whereas also they were Unbelieving , they also loved an Oath : And that they should not afterwards either sacrifice to Idols , or swear by Idols , the Law permitted them to sacrifice and to swear ; and if there were any thing else of that kind , they transferred all unto God. Now it was to come to pass , that in process of time , he would cut off these things also , by a more sublime Law to be brought in ; because it is good for Infants to be suckled ; but for men it is very unfit : There we allow this to them that live after the manner of Infants ; but we with-draw or prohibit them that are manly from it . Quest . What then is to be done , if any require an Oath , yea , compel to Swear ? Answ . Let the Fear of God be more forcible then this Compulsion or Necessity ; and chuse rather to suffer all things , then to transgress the Command , sith in every Precept Force and Violent Danger will often meet with thee : And unless thou esteemest the Command of God every where more forcible , all things will depart from thee Void and Unperformed . In the following Passages the Lord saith , The Kingdom of Heaven suffered Violence , and the Violent take it by Force . LXXIX . OECUMENIUS , a Famous Greek Writer , about Ann. 1070. writes on Jam. 5.12 . thus , But some will say , If any be forced to swear , what is to be done ? We say , that the Fear of God shall be stronger then the Force of him that compels . But some may doubt , How it comes to pass , that Grace doth not command this , as did the Old Law , affording Praise to him that did swear by the Name of the Lord ? We say , The old Law leading the Jews not to swear by Devils , appointed to swear by God , as it commanded them to sacrifice , drawing them from the Sacrifice of Idols or Devils : But when it had sufficiently taught them to have a Religious Respect to God , then it rejected Sacrifices as unprofitable , seeking not a Sacrifice by Beasts , but a Broaken Spirit ; that is , a sweet whole Burnt-Sacrifice , enflamed by the Fire of Love. That ye fall not into Hypocrisie ( so some Copies have it ; for the words in Greek are something alike ) Hypocrisie he saith , or Condemnation , which follows them that Swear without sparing , and through the Custom of Oaths are carryed out to Forswear . The Word Hypocrisie signifies thus much , that which being one thing appears another ; How then falleth he into Hypocrisie that sweareth ? Answ . When he that is believed for the Oath 's sake to be true , and yet Transgression following , is declared to be a Lyar , instead of a true Man , not producing Yea in Certainty . He forbids to swear by God , because of Perjury ; but by Heaven and other Oaths , that men should not bring these things into the Honour of God ; for all that swear , do swear by the Greater . LXXX . ANSHELMUS , Bishop of Canterbury , about Ann. 1090. on that place of Mat. 5. thus , pag. 38. Thou shalt not Forswear , &c. Moses seeing that he could not take away Swearing , takes away Perjury . And again , Because men have in great Reverence those things by which they swear , lest they should make the Creatures Gods to themselves , he commands them , to render their Oaths to God , and not to swear by Creatures : But the Lord removes them more perfectly from Perjury , when he forbids them to Swear at all . LXXXI . The Ancient WALDENSES we have good Cause to say , Deny'd the taking of any Oath in what Sense the Primitive Christians and Fathers refused , and that was altogether : To be sure their Enemies charged them with it for above Three Hundred Years ; and we cannot find , that they then deny'd the Charge : We suppose none will attempt to prove they did ; for they were well known in the World as to this Particular . LXXXII . And Bp. USHER pleads for them , against the Papists , who were Swearers . LXXXIII . Likewise , a People of Albi in France , Ann. 1176. held , It was Unlawful to Swear . LXXXIV . The Plowman's Complaint , containing , as abundance of mournful Applications to God , so many notable and serious Reprehensions of the Lapst , Erroneous and Cruel Nature of Men ; among others it hath this notable Passage to our Purpose , Lord , thou givest us a Command of Truth , in bidding us say , Yea , Yea ; and Swear for Nothing ; but , Lord , he ( Pope ) that calls himself thy Vicar on Earth , hath broken the Commandment , so makes a Law to Compel men to Swear . Who was the Author of this , is not certainly known ; but to be sure it was embraced of the Wickliffians , as worthy of their Patronage ; and remembred and recorded by John Fox , as not unworthy to keep Company with Protestant Martyrs . LXXXV . JOHN WICKLIFF , our Country-man , and in his time Divinity-Professor of Oxford ( Famous for his Learning and Godly Courage in oppugning the Doctrines and Practices of Rome , in the time of Edward the third , and Richard the second , about the year 1370. ) was accused among other things , for maintaining , that all Oaths , which be made for any Contract or Civil Bargain betwixt man and man , are Unlawful . LXXXVI . We will bring in here a Passage out of the Plowman's Tale , as it lyes in GEFFRY CHAUCER's Works , not impertinent to our Purpose ; whose Learning , Honour and Wit was great in the time he lived , which was about 1360. John Wickliff's Contemporary . ' These Wollen make men to Swear , ' against Christ's Commaundment ; ' And Christ's Members all to tear , ' on rood as he were new yrent : ' Such Laws they maken by common Assent , ' each one it throweth as a Ball ; ' Thus the Poor be full shent ; ' but ever Falshood foul it befal . He hath Expressions not less disliking Oaths in his Parson's Tales , where he makes the Parson to say , After those , then cometh Swearing , expresly against the Commandment of God , and our Lord Jesus Christ , who saith by St. Matthew's words , Ne shall ye not Swear in all manner , or on no Account . LXXXVII . WILLIAM SWINDERBY , Priest , and a Zealous Follower of John Wickliff , also lived in the time of Richard the second , as appears by his Appeal to that King , from the Unjust Sentence of the Bishop of Hereford , in which , to this part of the Charge exhibited ( That no man ought to swear for any thing , but simply , without an Oath , to Affirm or Deny ) he answers thus , Whereas Christ's Law forbids Swearing , the Pope's Law justifieth Swearing , and compels men thereunto : Methinks ( saith he ) there is no need to Comfort or Encourage the People in Swearing . LXXXVIII . WALTER BRUTE , also an early Dissenter from the Roman Church , and Intimate of William Swinderby ; being charged , among other things , with saying , That it is not Lawful for Christians , for any Cause to swear by the Creator , neither by the Creature ; thus answer'd for himself , and indeed , it comprehends much of our Belief in this Matter : As concerning Oaths , I believe and obey the Doctrine of Almighty God , and my Master , Jesus Christ , which teacheth , That Christian-men in Affirmation of a Truth should pass the Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees , the old Testament , or else he excludes them from the Kingdom of God : For Christ sayes , Unless your Righteousness exceed the Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees , ye cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven . And as concerning Oaths , Christ saith , It hath been said by them of old time , thou shalt not Forswear thy self , but shalt perform unto the Lord those things that thou knowest : But I say unto you , Thou shalt not swear at all , neither by Heaven , nor yet by the Earth , &c. but let your Communication be Yea , Yea ; and Nay , Nay ; for , whatsoever shall be more then this , proceedeth of Evil : Therefore , as the Perfection of the ancient Men of the Old Testament was , Not to Forswear themselves ; so the Perfection of Christian Men is , Not to Swear at all , because we are so commanded of Christ , whose Commandments must in no Case be broaken . Thus much of W. Brute . LXXXIX . John Purrey , John Edward , John Becket , John Clements , Richard Herbert and Emmot Willie , with many more in the time of Henry the fourth , through Fears and Hopes deserted their Profession , and revolted ( as John Fox tells us ) from their Faith , which was the Religion then profest of those called Wickliffians or Lollards ( the True , Poor , Persecuted Christians of that time ) And of the Fifteen Articles , by them abjured , this was one ; Item , That neither the * Pope , nor the Prelate , neither any Ordinary can compel any man to Swear by any Creature of God , or by the Bible-Book . XC . WILLIAM THORPE , whom John Fox calls , The Constant and Blessed Servant of God , and good Man and Servant of Christ , &c. refused to swear upon a Bible , when the Arch-Bishop tendered the Oath to him ; for , he thought it Not Lawful to take or give an Oath thereon , Because a Book is nothing else ( sayes he ) but divers Creatures , of which it is made ; and such Swearing is ever Unlawful , as witnesseth Chrysostom plainly , blaming them greatly , that bring out a Book to swear upon ; charging Clarks , that in no wise they constrain any Body to swear well , when that thing is sooth ( or true ) that they swear for . And also , full many Men and Women now say , That it is well done to swear by God , and by our Lady , and by other Saints , to have them in mind ; others say , That they may not swear , when they may otherwise be believed : But since all these Sayings are Excuses , and Sin , methinks , Sir ( saith he ) that this Sense of Chrysostom may be alledged well against all such Swearers . XCI . ELIZABETH YOUNG , who was brought to Examination in the Marian-days , before the Catholick Inquisitors of Heritical Pravity , as they then called themselves , and commanded to Swear , this Language was used to her . Dr. Martin , Thou shalt he racked Inch-meal , thou Trayterly Whore and Heretick ; but thou shalt swear before a Judge before thou go . Eliz. Young , Sir , I understand not what an Oath is , and therefore I will take no such thing upon me . Dr. Martin , She refuseth to swear upon the four Evangelists before a Judge ; for , I my self and Mr. Hussey , have had her before us Four Times , but we cannot bring her to swear . Then said the Bishop , Why wilt thou not swear before a Judge , & c ? Eliz. Young , My Lord , I will not swear , that this Hand is mine . No , said the Bishop ; and why ? Eliz. Young , Christ saith , That whatsoever is more then Yea , Yea ; or Nay , Nay , it cometh of Evil. Then Dr. Cook brought her to a Book , commanding her to lay her Hand thereon . Eliz. Young , No , my Lord , I will Not Swear . And so she persisted , till God delivered her out of their Hands . John Huss , Jerom of Prague , Walter Brute , William Swinderby , William Sawtry , William White , William Thorpe , &c. are recorded by those of other Nations , both High and Low Dutch , to have refused all Swearing ; as well by God , as by Creatures , in any Case , private or publick . Though such as admit of Oaths in some Cases , labour , as John Fox in England , and the Calvinists abroad , to ecclipse and mutilate their Testimony ; as if they were one while only against Book-Swearing , as being a Creature ; another while , only against Swearing in Private Cases ; another while , as J. Fox relates in John Burrell , That it is not lawful to swear , but in Case of Life and Death , &c. But most evident it is , that they were against All Swearing , or Swearing at all ; else , why should they so frequently alledge Chrysostom , who , though he accounted swearing by Creatures a more execrable Sin , then to swear by God ; yet constantly counted Swearing at all , a Sin in Christians , as cleaving to that which Christ had abrogated , being only permitted to the Jews , for the Hardness and Blindness of their Hearts , their Unbelief and Propensity to follow the Course of the Heathens , and swear by their Gods. Let it not be forgotten , that Chrysostom not only inveighs against them that bring forth the Book to swear by , because it is a Creature ; but that he also upbraided them with Impudence and Audaciousness , that dare make use of that Law to administer an Oath by , that so strictly forbids an Oath . Ridiculous it is , to make them deny Swearing only in private Cases , and to be ready to swear in Case of Life and Death : For where is there any Shadow of such a Law ? And how should those Honest Men invent one ? Christ's Law we read Mat. 5. The Doctors , Chrysostom and Jerom's Judgment , whom they had mostly in their Mouths , we have repeated here at large , in which is not the least Restriction . These Good Men then must needs be understood to take the Law of Christ either to have forbidden Swearing in any Case , and then not to swear in Case of Life ; or not to forbid Swearing at all , and then they not only might swear to save their Lives , but Liberties and Estates , and ought so to do . But we hope there can be no room left for this Objection . XCII . The LOLLARDS of Kille in Scotland were against all Swearing , as both Spotswood in his Chronicle doth relate , and the Book called , The History of the Reformation of the Kirk of Scotland . XCIII . MICHAEL SADLER ( an Eminent Man , call'd a Lord ) was Cruelly Tortur'd and put to death by some Papists under the Emperor of Germany , whose Brethren were also Executed with the Sword , and his Wife and Sisters Drowned , Ann. 1527. One Article alledged against him was , that he had said , That men should not Swear to , or before the Magistrate . XCIV . The CHRISTIAN-PROTESTANTS in the Valley of Piedmont , who were Cruelly Tortured to Death by the Papists , about Ann. 1655. One Article alledged against them was , That they believed it was not lawful to Swear any thing , be it True or False . XCV . GERARD SAGARELD of Parma , and his Followers , Denyed all Oaths and Vows . So did several in Germany , mention'd by B. Usher , in his Book De Successione : In Germany , Jury and Swearing is well excluded , and need not much to be required . XCVI . ERASMUS , Now ye shall hear another thing . Commandment was given unto your Elders , none otherwise ; but if they had made an Oath , they should perform it , and not be Forsworn ; for now they are bound to God , and not to man only : Wherefore among the Jews only Perjury is punishable ; but he that deceives his Neighbour without any Oath made , he goes unpunished ; but yet the Law of the Gospel condemneth him ; the which , that ye may be the more remote from Perjury , doth utterly condemn all manner of Oaths ; that it is not lawful to Swear , neither by God , nor by those things which seem to the Common Sort to be things of less Religion , that is , Neither by Heaven , because it is the Seat of God ; nor by the Earth , because it is his Foot-stool ; nor by Jerusalem , because it is the City of the Great King , that is to say , of him that hath made all things : Neither as the Heathen swear , by the Head of another Man , whereof thou hast no Authority ; but it is consecrate to God , that hath made all things as he would ; for thou canst not make one White Hair Black , nor the contrary : And because all things are consecrate to God , the Maker , thou oughtest to be fearful to swear by any thing . And what needeth any Oath among them , where no man , because of their Simplicity , can distrust ; nor no man can desire to deceive , though they might do it ? Such is their Sincerity and Perfectness , specially in those things of the which they declare themselves to be Despisers . Therefore among you , plain and simple Speech ought to be more holy and more sure then the devout and solemn Oath among the Jews : For , among you , whose Hearts and Mouths ought to agree , there is no other use of Speech , but to express your Minds each to other . In your Bargains ye need no Oath , ye need no Execration , or Cursing , or such like , to bind the Promiser , or to assure him to whom the Promise is made : Two Words be sufficient , Nay and Yea , whereby thou denyest that which thou dost not promise , and whereby thou dost perform that which thou didst promise by plain Word , that thou wouldst do : For , there is no man less bound by his simple and bare Word , then the Jew Swearing by all holy Things ; and he whom thou makest thy Promise unto , doth trust thee as much as if thou hadst made a solemn Oath . If there be any more besides these , it must needs come of Evil and Sin : For , he that sweareth , either be thinketh Evil of him to whom he sweareth , ; or else , he that requireth the Oath , doth distrust : But none of these ought to be in you , whom I would have perfect in all Points . Therefore , when I utterly forbid Swearing , I do not abolish the Law which doth prohibit Perjury ; but I make the Law more full , and I with-draw men further from that , which the Law doth punish . Let your Mind be pure and plain , and let your Heart and your Mouth go both together : Let no man with feign'd words deceive his Neighbour . But especially , my Brethren , Swear Not , lest by little and little you accustom your selves to Forswear . Among Jews and Heathens , for Fidelity's sake , there is an Oath put ; But among Christians , which ought neither to distrust any man , nor to deceive , it is a Vain Thing to Swear . Whosoever is accustomed to Swear , is Cousen-german to the Peril of Forswearing . Be you afraid , not only to Swear by God in humane Affairs , and in light Matters , but also abstain from all kind of Swearing , that you Swear neither by Heaven , neither by Earth , or any other thing , that the Common People esteem for Holy and Religious . Whosoever dare be bold to Lye without Swearing , he dare do the same also when he Sweareth , if he list . To be brief : He that is a good man , will believe a man without Swear●ng ; and he that is naught , will not trust a man though he Swear : But among you that are furnished with Evangelical Plainness , there is neither place to distrust , nor to imagine Deceit ; But let your Plain Communication be regarded for no less True and Stedfast , then any manner of Oath of the Jews or Pagans , how holy soever it be . As often as you confirm any thing , confirm it with all your Heart ; and perform indeed the thing that you speak : As oft as you deny any thing , deny it with your whole Heart ; neither let any thing else be in your Heart then your Mouth speaketh , that there be no Counterfeiting in you , seeing you are Disciples of the Truth . Thus far , we hope , is put altogether out of Question , Whether many Learned and Christian Men have not flatly denyed the Vse of Oaths to True Christians : And though we need not the Contribution that is afforded us by several School and other Roman Doctors , yet to evidence a kind of Succession , and Universality of Testimony to this Doctrine , we think it not improper to mention some of them . The Judgment of Shoolmen and others , in this Point . XCVII . T. AQUINAS , Non j●rare omnino , &c. Not to swear at all , &c. The Lord had taught before , Wrong is not to be done to our Neighbour , as in forbidding Anger with Murder , Lust , Adultery , putting away of one's Wife ; and now he teacheth consequently , that we must abstain from the wronging of God , when he doth not forbid only Forswearing , as Evil , but also an Oath , as the Occasion of Evil , from whence he saith , hear thou again , For it was said of old time , Thou shalt not forswear thy self : and lest that they might make to themselves the Creatures Gods , he commandeth , to render the Oaths to God , and not to swear by the Creatures ; from whence it follows , Render to God , &c. that is , If one shall happen to swear by the Creator , not by the Creature , whence he saith in Deuteronomy , Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God , and by his Name shalt swear ; and this was allowed by the Law , as to Children , that as they did offer Sacrifice to Idols , they should not offer them to Idols ; so they were permitted to swear by God , not that they might do this rightly , but that it might be better to give this to God , them to Devils . Chrysostom upon Matthew , For no man sweareth frequently that sometimes may not forswear ; as he that makes it a Custom to speak many things , sometimes he speaks unfit things . Augustine against Fauslus , The Lord was more willing that we not Swearing might come short of the Truth , then Swearing the Truth , to come nearer to Perjury : Whence it follows , I say unto you , Swear not at all . Augustine on the Words of the Lord in the Mountain , in which he confirms the Righteousness of the Pharisees , which is , Not to Forswear , For be cannot Forswear , that doth not Swear . XCVIII . CAJETAN , Again , Ye have heard ] He perfects another Precept of the Old Law concerning Perjury ( because it was said to them of old time , Thou shalt not Forswear ) Exod. 20. Thou shalt not take the Name of thy God in vain : And Levit. 19. Thou shalt not Forswear in the Name of the Lord ; but shalt render to the Lord thy Oaths . The first part of this Precept ( namely , Thou shalt not Forswear ) is negative , forbidding Evil in its kind ; for Perjury is Evil of it self , therefore by no Reason it can be exc●sed . But the second part ( namely , Thou shalt render to the Lord thy Oaths ) is affirmative , and doth not signifie to fulfil the Oaths which thou hast promised ( as it appears ) and thereupon nothing follows of fulfilling of Promises ) but it signifies , that the Oaths to God are to be rendred ; that is , that Swearing must be by the Lord , not by the Creatures : For these words are not in the Law , but the Sense of them is , Deut. 6. Thou shalt swear by the Name of the Lord thy God : Where Swearing is not commanded , but is but regulated , that it should be by the Name of God , and not by the Name of the Creatures : For , the Law commandeth , that this Act of Religion , which is , to swear , should be exhibited to God , and to no Creatures or Idols whatsoever . But I say unto you ] He perfecteth both the Precepts , adjoyning two Precepts ; the one negative , the other affirmative ( Not to Swear at all ) Lo a negative Precept , wherein two things are contained , that is , Not to Swear , and Not at all ; he forbids us to Swear at all , by all means , as well in expressing God , as not in expressing God ; suppose by Heaven and Earth , and by the rest of the Creatures : And in this he perfects the Precept concerning not Forswearing , not only by taking away an Oath , but the Occasion of Forswearing ; for , 't is impossible to incur Forswearing without an Oath : and also , the Precept of performing the Oath to God , by taking away the Care of Performing ; for where nothing is sworn , there is no need of any Care of performing the Oath to God. CV . ALPHONSUS de Avendano , It 's to be noted out of Cajetan , that in this the Lord perfected the Command of not Forswearing , by taking away not only Forswearing , but the Occasion of not Forswearing ; because , without an Oath it is impossible to incur Perjury . An Oath was not necessary by the first Intention of Nature ; for if men had continued in the Truth , they had not lyed ; and because Christ came , that he might bring back men to this first Innocency , an Oath was not necessary , supposing that men ought to return unto it , then to men that live according to the Simplicity of the Gospel , an Oath is not necessary , and therefore not Good. Reasons for avoiding Caths , from the same Author . 1 st , Lest by Swearing they fall into Perjury , for which Cause Swearing is of an ill Report amongst the Saints , as in Ambrose , Psalm 18. 2 dly , For Reverence of the Name of God. 3 dly , For the mutual Confidence which one Christian should have of another , which ought to be so great , that every one should be sure , and not possible to be deceived in the least thing , although he should speak in a single Assertion ; and for the Authority of the Saints , which do seem to forbid all Oaths to Christians , and that the Truth of the Gospel receives no Oath , as good and desirable of it self ; seeing every one is of Evil. Lastly , Out of Cajetan , The Lord perfecteth this Precept of not Forswearing , by taking away not only Perjury , but the Occasion of it , and taking away the Care : For , where there is no Swearing , there is no need of Care of Rendering . Oh! how Sincere and True would the Lord make his Christians , that all Affirmations should be included in Three Letters only , all Denyals in other Three , that the Truth should be so familiar to us , as to be included in the Compendium of Three Letters ? C. FRANCISCUS de MENDOCA , Olysiponensis , Dr. Theol. in Eburens . Academia , Sacr. lit . Interpres , in 4. lib. Reg. Tom. 3. Speak , saith he , of me , &c. In the Hebrew it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. testifie , from the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which not only sig●ifieth to speak but also to bear Testimony , as it is to be seen Ex. 〈◊〉 . n. 14. Deut. 19. n. 15. Job 16. n. 9. et passi● alib● , and many other places ▪ as if there were no Difference with the Hebrews of speaking and testifying , nor without Cause ; for there ought to be so much Veracity of Good Men , that their Simple Speech may be accounted sworn , and their private Conference be accounted a publick Testimony , which was to be accounted the Fidelity of Cato , who was believed in a Court-Case even Unsworn ; which also S. Jerome , in his Epistle to Celantia , inculcates ; Let there be , saith he , so much Love of Truth in thee , that whatsoever thou sayest , thou mayst think to be sworn . The same Jerome to that of Mat. 5. Swear not , &c. The Gospel-Truth , saith he , doth not receive an Oath , sith every Faithful Speech is for an Oath . To which Opinion is agreeable the Doctrine of Philo Alex. in his Book of the Decalogue , It will be most profitable , saith he , and most agreeable to the rational Nature , to abstain Altogether from Swearing ; and be so accustom'd to Truth , that one's single Word may have the Force of an Oath . The like relateth Josephus , in the second Book of the Jewish War , cap. 7. De his Esseni , most sincere Worshippers of Truth ( vericultoribus . ) The Hebrew Elders also , when they would make their Innocency about the man kill'd by an Uncertain Author , testified with an Oath , as the Rabbins , Solomon and Moses in Lyran. affirm , Deut. 21. Nevertheless , they are brought in by the Scripture , asseverating it only with simple Speech ; And they shall say , saith he , Our Hands have not shed this Blood , nor our Eyes seen it . Because the simple and Naked Speech of a Wise Man , is equivalent to an Oath ; which St. Bernard vehemently commendeth in Comite Theobaldo , in Epist . 38. to the same , And indeed , saith he , in other Princes , if at any time we take a Word of Lightness or Falseness , we account it neither new nor wonderful : But with Count Theobald , we do not at all patiently hear Yea & Nay , to whom , as it is said , Simply to speak , is to Swear ; and a light Lye is accounted a heavy Perjury ; for among very many Ensigns of Virtue , which do very much ennoble your Dignity , and make your Name Renowned and Famous throughout the World , the Constancy of Truth is especially praised in you . 3. Certainly God himself hath ( tantundem ) so much to speak nakedly , and to swear by himself holily : For that he promised with an Oath an Off-spring to David , which should sit on his Throne , is read no where in the Scripture ; And yet Abner , 2 King. 3. n. 9. acknowledges an Off-spring sworn to David , The Lord do so to Abner , saith he , and add these things to him , unless as the Lord hath sworn to David , so I do with him . And in Psalm 88. God himself saith , Once have I sworn in my Holiness , if I Lye to David , &c. Also the Land of Canaan is no where found , in the holy Scriptures promised to the ancient Fathers with an Oath ; but God promised it simply to Abraham , Gen. 12 , 13 , & 17. to Isaac , Gen. 26. to Jacob , Gen. 28. Yet Moses , in Deut. 1. Possess , saith he , the Land , for which the Lord sware to your Fathers . Philo Alex. in the Book of Abraham , at the end looses the Knot notably ; That therefore the simple Promise of God in those places is called an Oath , because it hath the Force of an Oath . CI. JACOBUS FABER , It is the part of a Spiritual Man , not only Not to Swear in a Vain Thing , but also not in any Serious thing ; for , you which are such , are true : Unto true men it 's sufficient that a true man gain Belief , if he say , that the Lord hath commanded Yea , Yea , in Affirming ; Nay , Nay , in Denying : But if with incredulous and Evil men a Speech also be had concerning a serious and necessary Matter , why shall one Swear for their Badness , that he may gain Belief with them ? Who ever spake more seriously then our Saviour ? Who more necessary things ? Yet he never used other Speech then that , Verely , verely , I say unto you , or some other such like , which was a true Form or Manner to them , that swore not . Therefore that now some Swear , to gain Belief concerning some profitable and necessary things , which they think is to be given rather to the Oath then to the Person : Perhaps also there is a Danger when an Oath is required in Judgment , lest he that exacteth it , sin ; For if it be manifest , that he that is called into Judgment be verely good and true , it is enough to hear of him Yea or Nay ; but if that be not evident , or that it be evident , that he is bad , perhaps that 's required of him which ought not to be required . What then ? It is lawful to Adjure : For the Lord made Answer to an Adjuration , but he did not Swear ; and Adjurations are found in the New Law : But if any one being Adjured of another , speak the Truth , by answearing Yea or Nay , or by declaring the thing requir'd , neither the one nor the other offendeth ; but if he speak a Falsity , he offends , and incurs the Offence of a False Testimony , but perchance he sinneth less then if by Swearing he had also fallen into the Guilt of Perjury : For , as he that ( being adjured ) answereth in Truth , doth not Swear ; so he that answereth in Falsness , doth not Forswear , but he is a False Witness : but he also who hath adjured , is altogether guitless ; for , there is no doubt but he hath required that which was lawful to require . And although it s not my Purpose to contradict the Ordinances of Judgments , yet I may think this to be more Christian , both N●t to Swear at all , neither to Compel to Swear , to be more Spiritual : But yet , if the Badness of men would permit it , although you would have this Sentence of the Lord concerning not Swearing , to be applyed to the Believers common and daily Custom of speaking ( for he speaks to his Disciples ) which is very true , especially if the old Law , which the Lord declares , Thou shalt not Forswear , but shalt render to the Lord thine Oaths , was given concerning common and daily Speech ; but afterwards the Lord amendeth another thing , which was written in the Old Law , that the Law might be perfect , and that he might shew how he hath fulfilled it ; and it may be fulfilled of others , as Matthew shews . CII . SUAREZ : He affirmeth , Christ did not Swear , because that which he could not lawfully do , he could not simply do ; but he could not lawfully swear , therefore he could not at all : But that he never swore , is proved , because that he himself commanded or counselled , Not to swear at all ; but simply to speak , Yea , it is ; Nay , it is not , &c. therefore ought to go before the Example . It is spoaken of him only sometimes that he said Amen , or Truly or Verily , which we have before shewed to be no Particle of Swearing . It 's not only forbidden in the New , but also in the Old Testaments , Not to Swear , as Hos . 4. Zach. 5. quoteth Tertullian , lib. de Idololat . cap. 11. saying , I am silent about Perjury , seeing that indeed it is not lawful to Swear . And those very words of Christ , Swear not at all , signifie this ( seeing he subjoyns , Neither by Heaven , &c. ) as if he had said , not only greater Oaths , but also these , which seem less , you are to take heed of , and it is apparent from the Reason which he adjoyns , saying , Neither by Heaven : If therefore Christ forbiddeth to swear by Heaven , because God dwells therein , much more he forbiddeth to swear by God , &c. Now he forbiddeth all manner of Swearing by the Creatures , and every Oath by God himself , as Greg. Nyssen rightly argues , and Christ himself hath plainly so declared , Mat. 23. Lastly , The following Words of Christ are opposit , Let your Word be Yea and Nay ; for , by them he declareth , that he before forbad the Addition of any Oath . 2 dly , Jerome answers , Swearing was permitted to the Jews , as to Children ; but Evangelical Verity receives not Swearing , seeing every Faithful Word is for an Oath . The same Doctrine and Exposition doth Chrysostom follow . Theophylact , after Christ , It is an Evil to Swear , as to be Circumcised , and in brief , whatsoever is Jewish . Beda , also Castro and Druthmarus confess , and Bernard himself denyes not , that it is the Counsel of Christ , not to Swear . And Precepts are not contray to Counsels . Libr. 1. cap. 14. p. 282. Whether an Oath be an elicit Act of Religious Virtue ? There may be a Reason of Doubting , because every Act of Religion is Principally intended for the Worship of God : But an Oath is not made primarily , and of it self ( per se ) for the Worship of God ; but for confirming , &c. as Heb. 6. From whence it seems plainly to follow , That an Oath is not an Act of Religion . It may be declared by Reason ; because , 1 st , It is impossible that man can bring God for a Witness , although he would never so fain : Therefore the Name of God is taken in vain , as often as it is taken to swear ; Therefore it is Evil in it self ( per se . ) 2 dly , Grant this were possible , to bring God for a Witness ; it seems disorderly to bring the Person of God to confirm men's Businesses , Covenants , or Words , because it is disorderly to order things of an higher Order to those that are inferiour : Much more is it disorderly , to mix the sacred Authority of God to the prophane ( or common ) Words , and Businesses of Men. 3 dly , Though-in some Case an Oath might be used without Inconvenience , yet it is so exposed to Dangers , that it can scarce be done without Crime : But in the Law of Grace ; because of the Perfection of it , not only Sins are to be forbid , but also those things which do morally and nearest entangle into Sin : For he that loveth Danger , shall perish in it . He quotes Clemens Romanus , lib. 6. Constitut . Apost . as before ; Our Master commanded , that we should not Swear , no , not by the true God ; that our Word should be counted more firm and credible then an Oath it self . He quotes also Greg. Nazianzen , as before , upon these words , But I say unto you , &c. ] He forbiddeth all manner of Swearing by the Creatures , even with Respect to God : Hence it follows from the forcibler , as I said , that he forbad all Swearing by God himself , as Gregory Nazianzen rightly argues , as before , on Cant. Homil. 18. And Christ himself plainly so declared , Mat. 23. He that Sweareth by Heaven , Sweareth by the Throne of God , &c. Lastly , The words withstand , which Christ subjoyns , Let your Word be , &c. ] For , by them he declares , that he had before forbidden the adding of any Oath : Therefore Jerome answered , That Oaths , &c. were permitted to the Jews , as to Children . He uses many other Arguments , and quotes many Authors , as may be seen at large in his Book concerning Swearing . CIII . JO. MAJOR HADINGTONIANI , on Mat. 5. Not to Swear at all : That Precept was given to the Disciples ( the Basis ) of the first Church . CIV . JO AC . CAMER . and P. LOSELER VILLERIUS's Marginal Note upon Mat. 5.37 . Whatsoever you vouch , vouch it barely ; and whatsoever you deny , deny it barely , without any more words . CV . Bible , imprinted An. 1559. in Quarto . What is more is of Evil ] Marginal Note , From an evil Conscience , or from the Devil . CVI. MARLORAT on Mat. 5. saith , Some men , not bad , hold against Swearing . Maldonat on Mat. 5. reckons up several against Swearing . CVII . PETER CHARRON , Doctor of Law in Paris , in his Book of Wisdom , chap. 37. An Oath , what is it , but a Symptom and shameful Mark of Distrust , Infidelity , Ignorance , Humane Infirmity , both in him that Requires it , that Gives it , that Ordains it ( alluding to Christ's Words , saith he ) Quod amplius est a malo ; What is more , is from the Devil . CVIII . BEZA , on James 5.12 . That which you have to say or affirm , speak or affirm it simply , and without an Oath ; and that you have to deny , deny it simply and flatly . CIX . Folio Bible , printed Ann. 1578. Marginal Note on Mat. 5.34 . Swear not at all , Let Simplicity and Truth be your Words , and then you shall not be so light , and ready to Swear . CX . LODOVICUS SOTO Major , In the Gospel , this Particle ( Amen ) is often used by Christ our Lord , confirming his Words by it , as Hierem also noteth ; yet it 's not to be thought ( that none be deceived ) that Christ our Lord swore , or would have to Swear , as often as he useth this Word or Form of Confirming ; but rather so to have been willing , more to Confirm , and Perswade , and Commend those Things which he taught , and especially , by Reiterating or Repeating this Word , as he often useth ; for neither in this doubling of the Word , for nought that Christ our Lord sometimes useth it in the Gospel , but rather it hath a great Emphasis & Encrease , that is , great Moment and Weight to perswade and gain Belief , as Augustine rightly teacheth and explaineth in his 41. Tract upon the Gospel of John , expounding those Words of Christ , saying , Amen , or verely , verely , I say to you , He that doth Sin , is the Servant of Sin : although therefore that it be not a Swearing , yet it is a certain greater Confirmation and Asseveration of those Things which are spoaken ; yet nevertheless it is not Swearing ; for otherwise , is it likely that Christ the Lord , who himself d●horts others from Swearing at all , for Danger of Forswearing , should himself Swear so often ? for he not only forbad his to Swear , Mat. 5. but also at the same Time , and that very wholsomly that they should only use in their Speech a simple Affirmation and Denyal , without any Oath , saying , Swear NOT at all , &c. for this much more becomes the Simplicity , Sincerity , Piety and Modesty of Christians ; for nothing is more Simple , Brief and Effectual to perswade ( the Badness and Naughtiness of Men being removed ) then a single Affirmation or Denyal , although there were no Danger of Perjury . In this Sense in a Manner , do mostly all the graver Authors interpret that Place of the Gospel , or Command of Christ , of Not Swearing at all ; but especially Augustine lib. 4. of the Lord's Words in the Mount , C●p. 30. and 31. and in his Book de Mendacio , cap 15. and Epist . 154. to Publicola , and often else-where ; For which Interpretation or Understanding votes also Philo Judaeus in his Book of the Decalogue , Tom. 2. p. 129. where treating of an Oath , he thus congruently writeth ; Men sin in this Respect many and divers Wayes , therefore it will be most profitable and most agreeable to the Reasonable Nature , to abstain ALTOGETHER from Swearing , and so to accustom to Truth , that simple Sp●ech may have the Force of an Oath , &c. Which Things Philo in the same Place pursues to the same Sense , very congruently in the Gospel , that which also he confirms in his Book of Special Laws , Tom. 2. pag. 137. And afterwards , If therefore , as I said before , Christ the Lord for the Danger of Perjury , and also for the Reverence or Religion of an Oath , commands his NOT to Swear at all , though otherwise , it be true which they affirm ; If I say , there be so much Reverence of an Oath , how great is the Perfection ? It is not likely nor agreeable to Reason , that the Lord Christ , the Patern of true and solid Virtue , every Action of whom is our Instruction , did Swear so often , that is , should swear as often as he used this Form , Verely , verely , I say unto you , &c. For how can every moral Action of his , or in his Conversation , be our Instruction or Example , if he so frequently and every where seems to do that , which he so vehemently and earnestly commanded his , even his chosen Disciples , that is , his Apostles , that they should not do it at all ? Yet Augustine in his Book of the Apostles Words , Ser. 30. seems by his Authority to create some Scruple and Ado for us , inasmuch as he seems to censure and say , That it is a kind of Perjury when any wittingly & willingly ( that is , with certain Reason and Will , or of set Purpose ) useth this Word VERELY , to confirm any Thing : Yet if we diligently mark and weigh the Words of St. Augustine there , he intends no other then what we intend , acknowledge and confess , and is necessarily to be confessed , namely , that he which from a false Opinion and Perswasion , and an Erroneous Conscience , as Divines call it , thinketh and believeth that he Sweareth in very Deed in using this Word , as if this Word were an Adverb of Swearing , that sometimes he happens in a Manner to Forswear , if that which he affirms in this Manner be false ; yet this is accidentary and adventitious , namely , by the Intention of him that sweareth of his own Will , or rather Error or Ignorance , and not by the Force and Propriety of the Word Amen or Ve●ely , seeing , as we have said even now , that it is not a Word or Note of Swearing , but rather of confirming , as we confess : and the same St Augustine teacheth else-where , but especially in Tract 41. on the Gospel of John , on those Words of Christ the Lord , Verely , verely , &c. where Augustine moderating his Words , saith thus , Verely , verely , is , if we may so say , in a certain Manner , a Sw●aring of Christ . Now these Words of Augustine are to be weighed ; he dealeth not simply , but with an Additament and Caution . Verely , verely , to be ( if it be lawful to say it ) after a Manner a Swearing of Christ ; for so he declares plain enough , that Verely , verely , is not properly ●wearing , or a Note of Swearing , but only improperly , and after a certain Manner , viz. So far forth as Christ the Lord doth familiarly use this Word as Swearing , although in very Deed , and properly it be not an Adverb of Swearing , but rather affirming and asserting simply and in good Faith , to gain a better Perswasion of the Matter or Doctrine ; for Christ never seems to have Sworn , if we will ●peak truly and properly of Swearing , but alwayes us'd a simple Speech though sometimes by am●sicationem ; he hath used this , even repeated , I say , for the ●reater Perswasion of his Heavenly Doctrine , that by this ●eans he might give his an Example of Not Swearing rashly and every where , as we have already said , to whom he plainly commanded , saying , Swear not at all , &c. but , &c. so great is the Religion of Swearing , and the Danger of Forswearing . The Approbation and Commendation of the Doctors of Paris . We have carefully read these Commentaries on the Epistles of St Paul , and Timothy , and Titus , wherein the most Learned Author , according to the great Learning wherein he excells , largely and elegantly opens the more hidden Senses of the Apostles ; and we have thought them worthy to be printed for publick Profit , Act Par. 16. Feb. 1610. F. Coeff . F.J. Tourn , &c. CXI . LODOVICUS PIUS Emperor , who in his Prologue saith , That from his Youth , by Christ's Inspiration , he had the Desire of the Worship of God , Capitul . Addit . 4. Tit. 96. Of not Swearing : That every one beware of Swearing ; because Forswearers as also Adulterers , shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. CXII . King LUITPRANDUS ; The Law of the Lumbards , Tit. 28. Law 2. If he that enquires concerning Theft , believe not the Witnesses , the Witnesses may confirm it with an Oath , except they be such Persons as the King or Judge may trust without an Oath . CXIII . The Emperor LOTHARIUS , Of the Law of the Lumbards , Tit. 3. Law 10. Of those that enforce Payment of Tythes , we will not have them to be constrain'd with an OATH , for Fear of Forswearing . CXIV . Of the Law of the VISOGOTHS , L. 2. Tit. 1. Law 23. which was ancient : Let none come easily to an Oath : For the true Search of Justice rather commendeth this , that the Scriptures in all things may intercur , and the Necessity of Swearing may altogether suspend it self . Thus much against Swearing from several Roman Doctors and others . We shall in the next Place produce the Judgment of those Men , who run not so high in their Censure of Oaths , as the Persons that we have hitherto cited , but that believe it is not unlawful in any Case to take an Oath , and from them we doubt not to make appear , that it is best Not to swear at all ; so far they from pleading for Swearing , or punish those that conscientiously refuse it . CXV . WILLIAM TINDAL saith , Our Dealing ought to be so substantial , that our Words might be believed without an Oath : Our Words are the Signs of the Truth of our Hearts , in which there ought to be pure & single Love toward thy Brother . Again he sayes , Swearing can only be allowed in Charity , where Yea and Nay have lost Credance ; however , that no Judge or other ought in any Case to compel any Man to swear against his Will. Peter Martyr , who deserves well of the English Protestants , confesseth , That Christians ought to live so Charitably and Uprightly , as not to need an Oath , and that they may not be called upon to Swear . Again , Let us so live that there may be no need for us to Swear , either by God , or any other Thing at all ; and this ( sayes he ) is that same AT ALL , which Christ spoak of . N. Zegerus upon Mat. 5.34 . tells us , That the most Ancient Writers from thence concluded all Oaths forbidden , and that the bare Word of Christians ought to be more Sacred and Firm then the most Religious Oaths of the Jews . CXVI . H. GROTIUS , a great & Learned Man , excludes all Oaths , not only such as are used in common Conversation ; but such as relate to Trade or pecuniary Matters ; allowing some oth●rs for avoiding Infamy , for preserving a Friend , & for a great Service to their Country , as not morally necessary , and by Precept , but only by Consequence and Remedy ; concluding that it is best to live so , as not to need an Oath : And so both many of those Oaths imposed upon us , are laid aside by him ; and also he gives many Cautions shewing that it is best not to Swear at all , if it may possibly be avoided : But in Answer to his Interpretation ; All Oaths are forbid that are performable to the Lord ▪ Now unles the vain inconsiderate , Oaths , such as are used in common Traffique are only those that are to be perform'd to the Lord , Solemn Oaths , such as the Law allow'd , are also prohibited . Besides , the Yea and Nay of a true Christian is as capable of all those good Services as an Oath , if the Sanctity of his Faith and Profession be allowed : And if any Prejudices come to a Man's Friend , Country or Self , because his Yea and Nay is rejected , it will never lye at his Door , who offers all Christ permits him , and his Conscience will dispense with ; but on the Distruster's Side , especially , when he that in Conscience can't Swear , offers as large CAUTION as he that SWEARS , and is willing to undergo Equal Punishment , in Case of Vntruth , that the other by Law sustains for Perjury . And those that will have it to relate to Rash , and not Judicial Oaths , quite cross the Text ; for Christ prohibits not only vain and superfluous Oaths , as now called , such as were alwayes unlawful , even under the Law ; but such as were allowed in the Times of the Law , rendring them also by Evangelical Verity under the Gospel , Vain , superfluous and Vnlawful : For well said Bp. Sanderson , No Need to forbid by a new Command Things that of themselves were alwayes unlawful . Otherwise , we must read Christ's Words thus , Ye have heard by them of Old Time , thou shalt not forswear thy self , but shalt perform unto the Lord thine Oaths ; but I say unto you , Swear not at all , except before a Judge ; as if Swearing before a Judge under the Law , were not an Oath performable to the Lord ; and such it self the Place most expresly forbids ; or thus , Of Old it was said , thou shalt not forswear thy self , but let your Yea be Yea , and your Nay , Nay , th● is , perform to God thine Oaths in Truth and Righteousness : But I ( who say more then was said of Old ) say unto you , Swear not at all , but perform thine Oaths to God in Truth and Righteousness ; The Inconherence of which must needs be obvious to every considerate Person ; yet it is the only Reading that ●an be left upon those Interpretations . We say , that what God dispensed with under the Law , he resolved to remove under the Gospel , and to wind up Things to a higher Pitch of Truth & Righteousness : from Adultery in the Act , to Adultery in the Thought ; from Revenge , to Sufferance ; from True Swearing , to NO Swearing at all , whereby all Abuse of Oaths and Perjury come to be removed with the Oaths themselves , by working out of Man's Heart that Fraud and Falshood that brought them in , and implanting Evangelical Verity in room thereof , which speaketh the Truth , the whole Truth , and nothing but the Truth to his Neighbour , and makes a like Matter of Conscience to t●ll a Lye , as to Forswear . And it is known to Almighty God , and we most heartily desire it may be known and belived by you , that we have no other End nor Inducement to this so general Refusal we are found in throughout the Nation . CXVII . Bp. USHER is so tender in this Point , that set aside his Vindication of the Waldenses , in his Sum of Christian - Religion , he makes it necessary to the taking of an Oath , that it be considered , First , If the Party we deal with ( really ) doubt of the Thing we affirm or deny , thereby making Distrust the Cause of Swearing , and implying , that not Custom , but real Diffidenc● should only continue Swearing ; consequently , not to continue where Distrust is done away . Secondly , It is to be weighed if the Party's Doubt whereof we speak , be Weighty , and Worthy of an Oath , which we fear , is seldom thought upon ; Custom prevailing even to Triffles , as well as most excessive vain Swearing in Common Conversation . Thirdly , If the Question be Weighty , w●e●her ( saith the Bishop ) the Doubt may be ended with Truly or Verely ; or doubting , it Verely ▪ Verely , as Christ did for you , by his Example we ought to forbear an Oath ? Mat. 5.37 . Wherefore should it not , especially among Christians . Fourthly , Whether there be not yet any other fit Means to try out the Matter before we come to an Oath . This is our Case ; and we make it our Sober Request , that it would please you to consider this Particular ; for doubtless , an Expedient may very easily be found , without bringing us under the Bondage of an Oath . CXVIII . JER . TAYLER , Chaplain in Ordinary to K. Charles I. and late Bishop of Doun and Conner , in his Book call'd ' 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , A Course of Sermons , London printed 1673. Serm. Of Christian Simplicity , fol. 228. Thus , Our blessed Lord would not have his Disciples to Swear at all ( not in publick Judicature ) if the Necessity of the World would permit him to be obey'd . If Christians will live according to the Religion , the WORD of a Christian were a sufficient Instrument to give Testimony , and to make Promises , and to secure a Faith ; and upon that Supposition , Oaths were useless , and therefore forbidden ; because there would be no Necessity to invoke God's Name in Promises or Affirmations , if men were INDEED Christians ; and therefore in that Case would be a Taking in vain : But because MANY are not ; and they that are in NAME , oftentimes are in nothing els , it became necessary that Men should Swear in Judgment and in publick Courts . But consider who it was that invented and made the Necessity of Oaths , of Bonds , of Securities , & all the Artifices of Human Diffidence and Dishonesty : These Things were indeed found out by Men , but the Necessity , of these was from him that is the Father of all Lyes ; from him that hath made many fair Promises , but never kept any ; or if he did , it was to do a bigger MISCHIEF , to slatter the more ; For so does the DEVIL . See Jews Antiquities , Chap. 12 Pag. 52. Concerning the Pythaegoreans , the Esseni , and concerning the Just Man at Athens , which they would not have to swear ; And what the Scholiast on Aristophanes , Lib. 12. p. 286. saith of Rhadamanthus . CXIX . Lastly , Bp. CAUDEN in his Discourse for Solemn Swearing , sayes thus much against it . 1. That Dissimulations , Frauds , Jealousies , &c. gave Rise to Oaths . 2. That The Ancient Christians and Fathers , that they might not be short of the Esseni , who WOULD NOT TAKE AN OATH , REFUSED TO SWEAR , saying to the Heathen , Christianus sum , I am a Christian ; to each other , Yea , yea ; Nay , nay ; thereby keeping up the Sanctity and Credit of their Profession . 3. That as Christians , truly such , we should possibly need no Swearing ; for an Oath is not ( sayes he ) Moral or Preceptive , but an Expedient or Remedy only against Falseness . Lastly , That neither a true Christian and good Man need to be Compelled to Swear , in Order to the Awing him into Truth-telling — Nor is ill Mens Swearing of much Credit ; with more to that Purpose : What Need then is there of either's Swearing ? The Substance of all which is this ; Oaths rise with Fraud ; Mens growing False and Jealous , Swearing or Awing by Oaths into True Evidence , became an Expedient ; and during this imbecil and imperfect State of Mankind , Almighty God , that hath been ever wont to stoop to Man's Weakness , condescended to yield the Jews that Custom , provided that they refrain'd from Common and Idolatrous Oaths ; and when they were called to Swear , they did it by the Name of the True God ▪ thereby manifesting their Acknowledgment of him ; but Christ , who is the Restorer of Breaches , the Builder of waste Places , the Bringer back of the Captivity of his People ( where Oaths were first wanted and learned ) and the Setter up of the Kingdom of God ( which stands in Righteousness ) redeems into Truth-speaking which fulfils the Law by taking away the Occasion of an Oath ; and such as are the true , humble and faithful Followers of this worthy Leader , need no Oath to compel them into Truth , to whom Truth is Natural , being freed by it , Joh. 8.32 . from Fraud & Falseness , and consequently from Swearing , which took Occasion by it to enter the World. Now we profess our selves in the Fear of Almighty God to be such as have thus learned Christ Jesus , and for the Reverence and Holy Love we bear to his Righteous Commandment we can't take an Oath in any Case . Object . 'T is True , and you say well , Oaths only serve till Truth-speaking comes , and you say , it is come to you ; But how shall we know that ? Answ . We intreat you to try us : No Man can be justly condemn'd before he be guilty ; nor reputed guilty in the Sight of men , till discover'd , You will have as easie a Way to catch us at Lying , as others at Forswearing ; and if you find us such , inflict the same Punishment for Our Lye , which is enacted for their Perjury . Be pleased to consider : I. The Rise of OATHS . II The Prohibition of CHRIST . III. The Judgment of so many good HEATHENS . IV. The Belief & Practice of so many primitive CHRISTIANS , Celeb●ious FATHERS , Godly MARTYRS , and Learned PROTESTANTS . V. The Caution they use who in any Sense allow of an Oath . VI. That it is matter of Faith ; and What is not of Faith , is Sin : And that we cannot alter our Minds without Conviction , unless we should turn Hypocrites ; And what Security can or will you have from our Oaths , who must first make us to break the Tye of our own Conscience before we can take them ? It can't be thought , we should keep with you , when you make us break with our selves . VII . Consider what express Scripture we have for it , and that in the Judgment and Martyrdom of many good and famous Persons . VIII . Be pleased to weigh the great PERJURY that is now in our World , and daily Numerous Oaths belcht forth by some , to show they dare be bold with Sacred Things ; by others , to vent Passion ; by too many ( as they impiously think ) to grace their Matter , whilst others have so great Doubt of their own Credit , that they Swear , to drive , what they say , home ; and not a few use it , meerly to fill up vacant places , being barren of better Matter . We tkink that instead of taking Advantage against us for Not Swearing , in so Forswearing an Age , we should rather receive Incouragement for speaking That Truth without an Oath , which others are compell'd to by Oath , if yet they speak it . False-speaking necessitated the Use of Oaths ( say many ) But Oaths proving now not the Remedy , but the Disease , What better Expedient can be used then to come back to Truth-speaking , which endeth Oaths in their first Cause , or Occasion at least : However , that such as are not Sick should be oblig'd to take the Potions of the Sick , only to keep them Company , That seems Vnreasonable . IX . Be pleased to consider the perishing Difficulties we meet withal in our Commerce in the World , particularly as Creditors , Executors , Merchants , Ship-Masters , Apprentices , &c. Men making us pay because of our Tenderness in this Matter . Oh the OPPRESSION that is exercised in Petty Courts and Sessions upon many Hundreds of us , who know not which Way to Right our selves , an Oath still being required in the Case ; the Refusal of which for Conscience sake , exposing us to great Losses , both of Estate , Liberty and sometimes Life by Tedious and Cruel Imprisonments . X. But the Loss and Trouble is not alwayes our own ; Our Neighbours frequently become Sufferers against our Wills : First , In that we can perform no Office in common with them , however otherwise able to discharge it . Secondly , Nor can we serve them in the Capacity of Witnesses , which Qualification goes a great Way towards the Maintenance of Justice ; and all because our solemn Word will not be received instead of an Oath : Relieving us here is a double Benefit , for our Neighbours share with us in it ; and it manifestly tends to the Preservation of Society . And whatever any may please to think of us , we are as willing and ready to contribute all Honest Assistance to the Maintenance of Justice , and answering the Ends of Government , according to our Ability and Conscience , as any Sort of Men that live under it . XI . And Lastly , We intreat you further to consider , that Our CAUTION is as large as the Man that Swears : For though you make a Difference between him that tells an Vntruth , and he that Forswears , in Favour of the former ; yet we cheerfully submit our selves to the Punishment of the Perjured , if we break our WORD ; do you but please to take us into equal Priviledge with the Swearer : If there be any Dammage , we conceive it is done to Vs , who sustain the same Punishment for an Vntruth , which is the only Due of Perjury ; and if you condescend to yield us the Kindness of the one , we offer our Persons to answer the just Severity of the other . We will add here out of Hoof●'s History of the Netherlands , a President , not impertinent to our Purpose , fol. 464 , 465. translated out of Latin as follows . CXX . In this Assembly of the States ( saith Hooft ) there was something attempted towards the Oppression of the Menists , as appears by a certain Letter , written from Dort , the last of March , by the Ld. St. Aldegonde , to the Minister Caspanus Heidanus ; which was thus worded . The Cause of the Menists hath since receipt of your and Taffin's Letters yesterday been treated of with the most illustrious Prince ; And verely , I find it more difficult then I had hoped [ for ever may and will such Cursed Hopes meet with such Wise Repulses from prudent Rulers ] For , he had at Middelburgh given me great Hopes , that we should seclude from the Freedom of Burgesses , or at leaft , not so solemnly receive those that refused an Oath . Now he alledgeth , that such a thing cannot be concluded without a new Convulsion in the Churches , because the States will never suffer , that such a Law be made , as they judge no wayes conducing to the Common Good of the Republick . Yea , he avers , That this was the only Cause formerly , which brought their Consistories so far into the Displeasure of the States , that it differed very little , but they had been all at once voted down , and laid aside by the Council . That they [ the Clergy ] were now again about the same thing , and that in such a season , that no doubt many would pour in cold Water out of the Popish Hodg-podge . That his settled Judgment was , that this would turn to great Disadvantage , and breaking down of their Churches . And when I [ saith Aldegonde ] fervently urged , That we could easily reject those that broak the Band of all Humane Society , upon Pretence of Civil and Political Order : and when I added ( saith he ) how much Danger and Peril Church and State were threatned with by such a Conclusion of the Council , in it self Ungodly , He answered me sharply enough , That those men's YEA must pass for an Oath ; and that we must not urge this thing any further , or we must confess , that the Papists had Reason to Force us to a Religion that was against our Consciences ; and that the North-Hollanders would not at all allow of it . In short ( saith he ) I scarce see any thing we can get done in this Point , which verely [ ye may believe him upon his Protestation ] Is the greater Smart to me , the more I observe that the Minds of many Honest Men , by the pretending of I know not what unseasonable Stumbling Blocks , will be thereby imbitter'd , yea , I could almost say , wounded , to see them less affected ●o those , that to their uttermost seek to advance the Cause of the Church . The PRINCE ( saith he ) partly in the Name of the State , and partly of himself , chid me , as if we were about to set up in our Clergy a Dominion over the Conscience ; and as if they endeavour , by their Laws and Constitutions , to subject all others to them : And he praised the Saying of a Monk that was lately here , who answered to the Objection [ of the Persecuting Spirit of the Romish Church ] That our Pot had not gone so long to the Fire as theirs , whom we did so much revile upon that Account — And that he clearly saw , That before two Ages passed , the Church-Dominion would upon both sides stand on even Ground . To which Hooft adds , By this we may observe , of what Consequence the Prince and States then held Liberty of Conscience to be . And that what we have hitherto said may not be thought a thing impracticable , we shall present you with the Judgment and Edicts of Forreign Governments . Here follow Two Letters of the Grave of Nassou and Prince of Orange , to the Magistrates of the City of Middelburgh , in Behalf of the Menists there . CXXI . A Copy of the First Letter . FOrasmuch as a Supplication hath been presented unto his Excellency in behalf of certain Inhabitans of this City of Middelburg ; complaining thereby , That the Magistrates of the said City had lately caused their Shops to be shut , and consequently prohibited their Trade , which yet the only means which they have to maintain their Families ; the s●id Prohibition proceeding from their not having yet taken the Usual OATH , as others : The said Inhabitants further remonstrating , how that they now , for a certain long Term of Years , have , without taking the said Oath , freely born all Civil Burdens , Contributions and Taxes , equally with other Burgesses and Inhabitants of this said City , without ever having been in any Default : and therefore ought at present still to remain unmolested , seeing they do therein not desire any thing else , then to live in the Liberty of their Consciences , upon which Account this present War against the King of Spain hath been by his Subjects taken up , and all Ceremonies contrary thereunto resisted ; in which such Advance is , through the Help of God , made , that the afore-said Liberty of Conscience is preserved ; and therefore it would be an Unequal Thing to Deprive the Supplicants thereof , who have helped to acquire the same by bearing Taxes , Contributions , and other Burdens , not without great Peril of their Bodies and Lives ; consonant to which they having presented a Request to the aforesaid Magistrates , but got for Answer , That they must regulate themselves according to the Policy and Order of the aforesaid City : Whereby ( saith the Petition ) the aforesaid Magistrates seem to endeavour by the Oath , not only totally to ruin and expel out of these Lands the Petitioners , with their Wives & Children , residing in Middelburgh ; but consequently innumerable others , in Holland and Zeeland , who have ( according to his Excellency's Proclamations ) placed themselves under his Excellency's Protection , by which no man can be any wayes benefited ; but all these Lands received great and considerable Dammage , because thereby the Traffique thereof would be every where greatly diminished : Intreating therefore , and humbly begging his Excellency , that looking upon their Case with Compassion , he would take due Course about it , especially seeing that the aforesaid Petitioners do proffer , that their YEA passing for an Oath , the Transgressors hereof should be punished as Oath-Breakers . Therefore , his Excellency having considered the Premises , and having maturely deliberated upon the same , hath , with the previous Advice of the Governour and Council of Zeeland , ordered and appointed , ordereth and appointeth hereby , That the aforesaid Petitioners , YEA shall be received by the Magistrates of the aforesaid City instead of an OATH ; provided , that the Transgressors thereof shall be punished as Oath-Breakers and Perjured Persons . His Excellency charging and commanding the Magistra●es of Middelburgh , and all others whom this may concern , No further to oppress the Petitioners contrary to their Consciences , concerning the Oath ; but suffer them to Open their Shops , and Enjoy their Trades , as they formerly have done : all by Provision , and till such time as there shall be , in more Tranquillity of Affairs , with ripe Deliberation , regard being had thereunto , ordained therein , as shall be found convenient . By my Gracious Lord , the Prince , subscribed , De Baudemont . This done under his Excellency's Name and Seal , in the City of Middelburgh , upon the 26. January , 1577. Guilliaume de Nassou . CXXII . A Copy of the Second Letter . The Prince of Orange , Grave of Nassau , Lord and Baron of Bueda , Diest , &c. Honourable , Honest , Worshipful , Wise , Discreet , Dear and Singular : FOrasmuch as certain House-keepers there inhabiting , being , as they say , Menists , have , by way of Complaint divers times signified to us , how that You are daily Molesting them , and Depriving them of the Means of Gaining in Rest & Quietness their Livings for them and their Families ; forbidding them to open their Shops , under the Pretence , that they should Refuse to take an Oath in the same Form as other Burgesses ; upon which we having taken ripe Deliberation : And forasmuch as the aforesaid People do proffer to bear equally all Burdens with other Citizens , and even in the Case of Arms , which mostly moves them to contribute , do you such Performances at their Charges , as your selves , or they that shall have the Orders shall find in all Reason and Equity fit to be done , and they will bear it : We therefore conceive , that ye do very ill , not to permit them to live in Peace and Quietness , according to the Mind of their Conscience , according to the Act which we , with the Advice of the Governour and Council formerly afforded them , which they say , they have exhibited to you ; And yet notwithstanding , we find that you have hitherto refused to give heed unto it , and to our precedent Letters , and so we are constrain'd for this last time to write this , by which we plainly declare unto you , That it concerns not you to trouble your selves in particular with any Man's Conscience , so long as nothing is tre●ted or done that might extend to any Man's Scandal ; in which Case we will neither respect nor bear any Man. And therefore we charge and order you expresly , To desist all further Molestation or Hinderance of the said Menists in their Merchandize or Handicrafts to gain their Livelihood for their Wives and Children ; suffering them to open their Shops , and work as they have in times past done ; till such time as there shall be otherwise ordered by the Generality ( who are thereunto qualified ) And therefore take heed that ye do nothing against this , and the Act to them granted , or to further any Fines from them upon that Account ; provided , nothing be by them attempted , which might tend to the Scandal of any Man : And they shall bear all Civil and Equal Burdens , as other Men. Herewith , &c. subscribed by Copy , De Baudemont . CXXIII . Also , by the Treaties of Peace between the States General of the United Provinces , and the Kings of England , Spain , &c. ann . 1674. there is a special Article therein contained , That All their Ship-Masters of Merchant Ships , shall carry along with them a Sea-Brief , according to the Form thereby prescribed . In which it is expresly declared , tha● Such Master shall come before the Magistrates , and by his solemn Oath testifie , that such Ship , whereof he is Master , doth properly belong unto the Subjects of the said States General ; unto which Sea-Brief , under the Seal of the City's intire Faith and Credit is given . And although by the said Treaties , the Master was to give his Oath , yet the Magistrates in Holland do take the Solemn Affirmation of such as Cannot Swear instead of an Oath , and insert it so accordingly in their Sea-Briefs ; and then it runs thus , These are to certifie , &c. That A.B. hath before us Solemnly Affirmed and Declared , that the Ship C.D. whereof he is Master , doth properly belong and appertain to the Subjects of the States General of the United Provinces , &c. Which can be sufficiently evidenced , if required . This was the Care , this the Condescension of other Governments , for the Relief of Persons under our Circumstances : And we take Liberty to affirm , That the Trade and Wealth of the Vnited Provinces , are owing more to the Ingenuity and Industry of those Indulg'd Dissenters then to them of the National Religion , who would have slugg'd and tyranniz'd all into Poverty and Vassallage . Have Regard to our Suffering Condition , we beseech you , and shew your selves both Natural to a Member ( be we reputed the meanest ) of your own Civil Body , and so far Lovers of him who said , Swear not at all , as not to continue us Sufferers for not acting against his Command , at least , our Sense of it , and therein of our own Consciences ; But make some Provision for us , as well as other Countries have done before you , as in your Wisdom you shall think meet ; that all those , who are of the Society of the People called Quakers , and known of themselves to be so , shall not be molested for the future upon the Account of Swearing , but their S●lem● YEA or NAY shall be taken in lieu thereof , and their Untruth , or Breach of Word , Punishable as Perjury . God , we know , that delights in Mercy , and in all Acts of Tenderness to the Sons of Men , will favour so Natural , so Generous and so Christian an Enterprize ; and the Proposers , Promotors & Effecters of this happy Deliverance from the heavy Clog of Swearing , under which we and our Families have so long groaned , will not , we da●e believe , go without their Rewards at the Hands of the Almighty , whom , at what rate soever ye shall deal with us , we do , from the bottom of our Souls , humbly and heartily implore , That it would please him so to dispose your Hearts , as ●ou may best Discharge that High Trust reposed in you , to the Ho● of his Great Name , and the Prosperity of this Famous 〈◊〉 , the most certain Foundation of True Feli●ity 〈…〉 ●nd which will give , as a good Example 〈…〉 ●st Reputation to you and your Posterity . This perform'd in the 〈…〉 for the Service of the Pe●le 〈…〉 William 〈…〉 Richardson . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A70779-e3570 * Lived before Chr. 200. years . H. Grotius on Mat. 5. Bp. Gauden of Oaths , p. 36. in Psalm 14. ●amb . 20. Commen● . on Hebr. c 6. Hom. 9. on Acts 3. Hom. Psal . 5. Ad Pop. Antioc . on Mat. 5. on Mat. 5. on Psal . 14. on Mat. 5. Vit. Chr. p. 2. c. 12. on Mat. 5. p. 17. and 23. on Mat. 5.3 , 37. Deutr. 6.13 ▪ 14 , 15. Mic. 6.8 . Bish . Gaud. of Oaths , p. 41. Acts 17.28 . Ephes . 4.6 . Numb . 5 21 , 22. Fest. ad Lapid . Polyb. l. 3. c. 25. Alex. ab Alex. l. 5. gen dier . 10. Cic. l. 5. Ep. 1. Arist . 3 Pol. 10. Plin. in pan . ad . Trajan . c. 64. Lindenbro . c. 3. sect . 7. Bp. R. Sanders . de Jur Oblig . p. 141. Joh. 14.15 . & 15.10 , ●4 . Mat. 16.24 . Mat 5.20.48 . 1 Thess . 5.23 . Phil. 3.14 . Ephes . 4.13 . 1 Pet. 2.21 , 23. 1 John 4.17 . Ephes . 4.20 , 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 25. These Nations were many Hundred Years bef . Christ . Liv'd before Christ about 1280. years ; being in the dayes of Gideon , Judg. 8. Bef . Christ 800. years ; in the dayes of Hosea , Joel and Amos. Bef . Christ 620. years ; in the dayes of Josiah . Bef . Christ 593. years . Bef . Christ 500. years ; These Three Persons liv'd in the time of Jeremiah and Ezekiel . Bef . Christ 560. years . Bef . Christ 422. years ; in the time of Ahasuerus , Ezra 4. Bef . Christ 422. years ; in the dayes of Haggai & Zachariah . Bef . Christ 400. years . Bef . Christ 394. years . These two lived in the days of Malachi . Bef . Christ 266. years . Bef . Christ 337. Years . Bef . Christ 336. Years . If it be a great Good , not to Swear at all ; what is it to Impose an Oath ? Page 583. Page 515. Euseb . Eccl. Hist . lib. 4. cap. 15. Euseb . lib. 4. cap. 16. Tertullian was a Lawyer , Son to a Centurion of Pro●consular Dignity . See his Life . Rigaltius adds , I will speak plainly , that the Emperor is Lord , but after the common manner . Tertul. ad Scap. c. 1 , 2. Apol. c. 33. * I do offer Sacrifice by Prayer , c. 30. Tertul. de Idololatria , cap. 11. It is confest by le Prieur , that the Christians did deny all Swearing . Bruno and Cassiodorus on Psalm 14. & Psalm . 61. This Cassiodorus was a Roman Senator & Counsellor of Theodoricus , about the year 490. * There are about 2000. Corrections in Tertullian his Works . Suarez . de Juram . c. 2. * Infidelity keeps Company with Swearing : And for a Christian to Swear , is with Clem. Alexandr . to turn Infidel again . He makes two Prohibitions , as we do : 1. Swear not by God ; 2. by no Creatures . Ibid. Tract . 35. Mat. 26. Num. 5.19 . 1 King. 22.16 . Orig. against all Swearing with us ; and Compelling . Orig. on Jer. 4.1 , 2. Cypr. Epist ad Corn. n. 5 Cyprian de Mortal . Euseb . apud Stob. de Jure●ur . c. 27. Athanas his Abhorrence and Derision of Oaths . Athanasius his Reason and Dislike of Oaths . Object . Answ . Athanasius will not have it , that God ever swoar , properly & strictly taken ; only in a way of speaking , having the Truth & Immutability of the truest and greatest Oath This , if that Clemens , should have been first , because he liv'd in Paul's time ; but we were not willing to begin our Testimonies with a Suspicion : howbeit it is an Ancient Writing . l. 6. c. 25. Socrat. Eccl. Hist . lib. 4. cap. 21. * Pray mark where Basil layeth the Blame , if a Word go not for an Oath . Joseph swore not . Paul swore not . Ad Nepotes . above 300. l. Basil . Mag. can . 29. Basil's Expedient , to remove Oaths . The Reason of prohibiting Oaths . God swears not . Paul did not Swear . See Tertullian before , to whom this agrees . Mark how Gregor . Naz. speaks of the Scripture , in Comparison of God's Omnipresence with the mind and the sense , and regard man ought to have of it . Greg. Naz. his Account of an Oath . Greg. Naz. on Cant. Hom. 18. Exhortat . ad Virgin. Ambrose on Mat. 5. * He was for Inspiration & Perfection . Psalm 109. Ambr. Com. on Heb. c. 6. Oaths founded on Defect , not to be encouraged ; then not to be imposed . Id. Hom. Psa . 5. Ad pop . Antioch . Hom. 19. The Reason of Oaths . Against the Dispraise of solitary Life l. 1. Of Compunction of Heart , l. 1. Against the Jews , Hom. 34. Agreeing with Euse bius before . The Godly Zeal of Chrysostom Commendable . Much less to force others . Chrys . calls Swearing & Compelling to Swear at all , an Error ; then we are Orthodox . See his great Praise in Soc. Schol. l. 6. c. 3. He was of the Race of Senators . Remember Tertullian's Case by this . Homil. 28. Ecclog . de juram . Hom. 5. ad pop . Avitioc . Chrysost . against giving an Oath . Chrysost . exexhorts to be Right Quakers by Trembling , & not Swearing . Against Compelling to Swear , & shows how to avoid it . He differs much from those that punish us for not swearing . On Mat. Homil. 17. ● Object . Constancy in not Swearing getteth Veneration . Object . Great Rea●on . Object . This is True Christian Doctrine . With Christians it ought to be so . What Evil is it then to hale men back again upon Penalties ? * A great Enemy to Images . † The Reason why God admitted Oaths . No Ordinance of God or man originally , but ▪ Corruption insensibly brought it , & God only suffer'd it by a true Deity till the Times of Reformation . Object . His Reason our Reason . Object . Much regarded and observed by venerable Antiquity , said Jam●s and the Fathers , part 2. page 36. Act. Mon. v. 1. p. 701. A Great ●ruth ; Forswearing ends in No Swearing . Excellently distinguisht , and the Sordidness of Oaths fully represented . According to Eusebius . The Unhappiness of Swearing , especially against Conscience . His Advice about the — Matter , when drove to a Pinch . Object . His Caution to those that impose Oaths , and Reflection upon the Practice . Lying as bad as Swearing in his Esteem . Admirably well argued . His Rebuke to the Clergy for tendring the Gospels ( or Bible ) to swear on . Again , the Original of an Oath . He concurs with us . The Definition of an Oath . A severe Declamation against Compelling People to swear . Again , of the Danger of Compelling People to swear ▪ Object . Object . Object . Object . * An Oath is a Binding of God for our Security . A Pathetical Censure of Oaths , and them that use them even in Courts With what Tenderness God's Name should be used . Chrysostom's Boldness . He testifies our Mind . † Mark the great Zeal of Chrysost . in this place . * Men never could plead Conscience for not being believed without an Oath ; many have , to be credited without one . * This was Chrysostom 's Exhortation Now it s said , How can we Trade without an Oath ? Object . Encouragement to sustain the Penalty . Our Doctrine made an Axiom by Chrysostom . Hom. 10. p. 101. God never ●wore properly . An excellent Reason why Oaths were permitted . This between the Two Stars seems a self-contradiction ; but doubtless he intends it of the 2d Prohibition in a further Reason , why Oaths were permitted . This between the Two Stars seems a self-contradiction ; but doubtless he intends it of the 2d Prohibition in a further Reason , why Oaths were permitted . If men can't Swear safely , then it is more dangerous to swear then not to swear and it is better for People , nay , they are bound to refuse it . de mend●c . It is obscure & intricate . De Verb. Jacobi , Ante omnia nolite jurare , Serm. 28. * If it belongs to the Righteousness of the Kingdom of Heaven , Not to Swear , then what will become of those that not only break that Commandment of , Swear not at all , but teach men so to do ? nay , punish men for not obeying such Anti-Evangelical Doctrine . † Then certainly they are to be rejected of true Christians . Euseb . Pam. Socr. Schol. Evagr. &c. Thes . 1.1 . Phil. 3.15 . Soc. l. 6. c. 1● Evagr. l. cap. 11. c. 9. Euseb . Eccl. His . l. 8 c. 28. l. 4. c. ●5 . Pelagiu● , a Brittain , an . 400. wrote Notable Books , saith Sennaida , who lived soon after him . See Baronius , an ▪ 1310. Joh. Walden against John Wickl●f and Waldenses . Reiner . Rub. Capitan . W. W●dford . Gui Carmel . V●ss . Histor . Pelag. l. 5 p. 2. Bp. Vsher , de Success . de Juramentis , l. 1. c. 1 , 2. Agreeing with Chrysostom . L. 1. c. 15. Ep. lib. 1. Epist . 155. Not to require an Oath by any means of another man. On Mat. 5. Suspicion , the Cause of an Oath . On Deut. 6. A smart and true Answer . Nilus forbids Oaths . On Jer. 4. Cyril . See Catena . 65. Grae● . Patr. on Luk. 1. p. 23. On Psal . 94. agreeth with Augustine . On Eccles . 8. Chap. 31. Beda in Ep. Jam. c. 5. Spelm. Brit. Council . p. 260. On the Revelations , p. 196. * He makes Oaths Jewish , at least in Opposition to Evangelical ; because imperfect , & permitted to the Jews in Condescension . p. 3. q. 59. See Bibliotheca veter . Patrum . They all agre in the Reason of suffering Oathes under the Law , viz. the Jews Weakness . Vid. Baron . Anno 1310. Joh. Walden adv . Wicklif & Waldens . Reiner . Rub. Capitan . W. Woodford . De Success . l. 6. Ban. Anno 1310. n. 3. J. Fox Mart. v. 1. p. 527. Men honoured by Protestants . J. Fox Mart. v. 1. p. 554 , to 558. Geff. Chauc . Works , fol. 86. J. Fox Mart. v. 1. p. 614 , 618. J. Fox Mart. v. 1. p. 623 , 359. J. Fox Mart. v. 1. p. 687. * If they could not , it was then held none could ; so that then it was denying all Tenders . Ibid. p. 701 , 702. J. Fox Mart. v. 3. p. 910 , 911. Spots . Hist . pag. 61. W.C. Albrid p. 193 , 194 , 195. Morl. Hist . p. 217 , 218. J. Fox Mart. v. 2. p. 420. Comm. on Mat. 5. Erasm . here plainly forbiddeth all Swearing on any account . Comm. on Jam. 5. Then not by God ; for the common people esteemed him sacred . Gloss on Mat. 5. p. 22. On Mat. 5. fol. 18. Comm. on Mat. 5. On 1 King. 12. n. 3. II. On Mat. 5. p. 23 , 24. De quaest . jur . Christ . p. 306. pag. 227. Hom. 18. in Cant. pag. 276. Const . 6. & 11. Comm. on 1 Tim. 1. pag. 210. Lindenbrog . Cod. l●g . antiquar . Ibid. Ibid. Ibid. On Mat. 5. & De Jur. Bell. ac Pac. p. 2. c. 26. ad 47. De juram . Praelect . 5. Viz. All their Reverent Fathers in God , Arch-Bishops , Bishops , Deans , and the● Judges of the Land , Justices of the Peace , and all Officers term'd Ecclesiastical or Civil , Judges , Priests and People NO Christians , else would they suffer Christ's Doctrine to be obeyed , who not only enforce OATHS on Strangers , but having the like D●ffidence , One Father in God of Another , one Judge and Justice of another , impose them on their Brethren and Fathers , with Equal D●strust . 
A54120	----	The Christian-Quaker and his divine testimony vindicated by Scripture, reason, and authorities against the injurious attempts that have been lately made by several adversaries, with manifest design to rendor him odiously inconsistent with Christianity and civil society : in II parts. / The first more general by William Penn ; the second more particular by George Whitehead. Penn, William, 1644-1718. 1674 Approx. 1386 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 310 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-01 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A54120 Wing P1266 ESTC R37076 16204746 ocm 16204746 105069 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A54120) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 105069) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2825:1, 1599:1) The Christian-Quaker and his divine testimony vindicated by Scripture, reason, and authorities against the injurious attempts that have been lately made by several adversaries, with manifest design to rendor him odiously inconsistent with Christianity and civil society : in II parts. / The first more general by William Penn ; the second more particular by George Whitehead. Penn, William, 1644-1718. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. [34], 163, 176 [i.e. 376], [1] p. s.n.], [London? : 1674. Errata: following p. 162 of first count, and at end. Includes "A discourse of the general rule of faith and life," p. 136-162, with special t.p. and imprint date 1673. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Society of Friends -- Apologetic works -- 17th century. Society of Friends -- Doctrines -- Early works to 1800. 2002-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2002-04 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2002-05 TCP Staff (Oxford) Sampled and proofread 2002-05 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-06 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Christian-Quaker , AND HIS DIVINE TESTIMONY VINDICATED BY Scripture , Reason and Authorities ; AGAINST The Injurious Attempts , that have been lately made by several Adversaries , with Manifest Design to render HIM Odiously Inconsistent with CHRISTIANITY and Civil Society . In II. Parts . The FIRST more General , by William Penn. The SECOND more Particular , by George Whitehead . Veritas fatigari potest , vinci non potest , Ether . & Beat. lib. 1. Thus saith thy Lord the LORD , and thy God that pleadeth the Cause of his People ; Behold I have taken out of thy Hand the Cup of Trembling , even the Dregs of the Cup of my Fury , thou shalt no more drink it again : But I will put it into the Hand of them that Afflict thee , Isaiah 51. 22 , 23. Printed in the Year 1674. TO THE Noble Bereans Of THIS AGE . WHen our dear Lord Jesus Christ , the Blessed Author of the Christian-Religion , first sent forth his Disciples , to proclaim the Happy Approach of the Heavenly Kingdom , among several other Things that he gave them in Charge , it pleas'd him to make this One of their Instructions ; Into whatsoever City or Town ye shall enter , enquire who in it is Worthy ; fore-seeing the ill Use Unworthy Persons would make of that Message , and with what Unweariedness the implacable Pharisee and subtil Scribe would endeavour to Pervert the Right Way of the Lord , and thereby prejudice the Simple against the Reception of that Excellent Testimony . This being our Case , who above every Tribe of Men are most Maliciously Represented , Bitterly Envied , and Furiously Oppugn'd by many of the Scribes and Pharisees of our Time , for as Impious Wretches as Those of that , reputed our Blessed Saviour and his Constant Followers , it becometh us in a Condition so desperate , to provide our selves with some Worthy Readers , Men that dare trust their Reason above Reports , and be Impartial in an Age as byass'd as this we live in ; whose Determinations shall not wait upon the Sentence of Ignorance nor Interest , but a Sincere and Punctual Examen of the Matter . And since there are None recorded in Sacred Writ , on whom the Holy Ghost conferr'd so Honourable a Character , as the Bereans of that Age ( for that they both searched after Truth impartially , and when they found it , imbraced it readily ) for which they were entituled Noble ) Therefore it is that to you , the Progeny of that Worthy Stock , and Noble Bereans of our Age , We , the so much Calumniated Abettors of the Cause of Truth , choose to dedicate this Defence of our Holy Profession from the Injurious Practices of a fort of Men , who not unlike to the Jews of Thessalonica , that , Envying the Prosperity of the Gospel among your Ancestors , made it their Business to stir up the Multitude against the Zealous Promoters of it . And no Matter what it be , provided they can but Obtain their End of fixing an Odium upon the Quakers : They do not only boldly condemn what they esteem Worst in us ( how deservedly we will not now say ) but slyly insinuate what is Best , to be Criminal . The Sobriety of our Lives , they call a Cheat for Custom ; and our Incessant Preachings and Holy Living , a Decoy to Advance our Party : if we say Nothing to them when they interrogate us , 't is Sullenness or Inability ; if we say Something to them , it is Impertinency or Equivocation : We must not believe as we do believe , but as they would have us believe , which they are sure to make obnoxious enough , that they may the more securely bait us for it ; Nor must our Writings mean what we say we mean by them , but what they will have them to mean , lest they should want Proofs for their Charges : It was our very Case that put David upon that sad Complaint , Every day they Wrest my Words , all their Thoughts are against me for Evil ; But to David's God we commit our Slander'd Cause , and to you the Bereans of our Age. Degenerate not from the Example of your Progenitors ; if you do , you are no longer True Bereans , and to such only we inscribe this Work ; if you do not , we may assure our selves of the Justice of a Fair Enqui●…y and an Equal Judgment . The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ augment your Desire after Truth , give you clearer Discerning of the Truth , and enable you both more readily to receive , and with greater Resolution to maintain the Truth . We are Rickmersworth , the 16th of the 10th Month , 1674. Your greatly Traduc'd , but truly Christian Friends , William Penn , George Whitehead . THE PREFACE . THe Insatiable Thirst of Men after Religious or Civil Empire , has filled almost every Age with Contest : But for Pure Religion scarcely has any one contended . To mention the Disorders within the first Six hundred Years from Christ ( who have been by far worse succeeded ) were to write the Ecclesiastical History ; But such as are not ignorant in it , must needs know , that Religion so early , became a Cloak for Dominion , and Truth a Pretence for Revenge . What better has happen'd since , Modern Stories tell us . Certainly the Separation of most Parties from former Institutions , however rightly begun , have basely degenerated into Self-Promotion , and when there , to the Exercise of that Power over Consciences , which , when it was their own Case ●…o suffer from others , they esteem'd most Cruel . I well know , that there is something in Man , that prompts to Religion , and such as stands not in the Traditions of Men , nor any meer Formality : But Man , that he may not wholy lose the Honour of a share , or be reputed sloathful ; with an unwarrantable Activity so adulterates , and by an Intermixture of his own Conceptions with those Divine Dictates , and purer Discoveries , so sophisticates , that they last become more his own Workmanship then the Truth 's . And so fond is he of this Child of his Brain , that like some ancient Tyrants , he will rather cut his way to the Throne by a Violence upon all other Consciences , then not put an Earthly Crown upon its Head. They that know not the Truth of this , have scarcely look'd back to their Great-Grand-Father's time . Two Centuries have not past as yet , since Bold and Honorable Attempts were made against that Apostate Church of Rome , which prov'd so Successful , as to win many Kingdoms from her Tyranny : God certainly blest the Endeavours of those Consciencious Persons , who spent their Estate , Time and Blood in that truly Holy , but Passive War. But this hath been the Misery , that they being intercepted by Death , their Successors , who acted not in the same Simplicity , and upon like Convictions as they did , began to think it no small Testimony of their regard to their martyr'd Ancestors , to invest what they call'd their Religion with Worldly Majesty , and then make use of the temporal Sword to establish it , with their own Additio●…s , as the most true , certain and infallible Way ; Employing that Force , those Mulcts and cruel Penalties to extort Conformity , or else perish who dissented : which rendred Rome's Actions so detestable to the very Martyrs , and indeed without which they had not been Martyrs . The Work was now to promote Religion by Power , who had so lately overcome It by Suffering . Leagues , stately Embassyes , great Conventions , raising of Armies , War with one , and Peace with another took up the Minds of most , how to defend the Stateliness and Pompous Grandure of their Religion , though they by so doing , gave Testimony , they had lost much of the true Sence of that very Religion they pretended to advance . 'T was now that some appear'd dissatisfied with such Proceedings , decry'd that Superstition and Formality which had been unadvisedly detain'd by the English Church as Decent ; for the Invention of that Church , the Protestants themselves stil'd Antichristian . They believed mens Lives were much corrupted , and laid the fault upon the Pride , Avarice , Voluptuousness and Ignorance of the Clergy ; they stript themselves of most Superfluities , and seem'd to promote a streighter Way , then what was then generally professed ; these they called Puritans . But such sowr Resentments had both the Powers and Prelates of their Procedure , that Laws were enacted , and executed to Blood , as well to hinder Religion from being more refined , as they had for preserving it from being again more gross . Surely , this look'd more like Care for Power , Faction and Interest , then Religi●… . For without doubt , the Plea of those Puritans was thus far unanswerable by their Adversaries . By this time almost all People were taken with their Complaints , especially those , who seem'd more Religiously inclin'd , which at last had so leavened the Gentry , as well as the Commonalty , that when that memorable Parliament was chosen , and for their Sitting , call'd afterwards , The Long-Parliament , the Sream clearly run on the Puritanical-side . The Church of England disdaining their pretended Reformation , and as resolved to abate in nothing of Her Splendor , Wealth and Preserment , in e●…ther Civil or Ecclesiastical Matters , makes Head against th●…se supposed Disturbers of the Peace of both Church and State : And as the blind Wrath of Heathens taught the Papists , and the Papists the Protestants ; so the Protestants by their Coercive Power for Religion , taught the Puritans to be resolute and fierce in the Defence of their Separation . The Complaints of the one , meeting with strong Denials from the other , they came to Big Words , and from thence to Heavy Blows . Such Feud , such Hatred , such War , Spoil and lamentable Slaughter , as for many Ages had not been known , were the most deplorable Effects of that Contest for Religion . By this time Victory turning to the Puritanical Party , now degenerated into harsh Presbytery ; they who before did fasten Anti-Christianism upon the Church of England , for offering to act Coercively towards them , in what concern'd Consciencious Separation , become themselves the most Narrow in Religion , and Vigorous in imposing upon the sharpest Penalties ( known to those times ) what they Synodically agreed to be Scripture-Faith , Worship and Discipline ; forgetting or denying to leave that Liberty of Examination to others , they had so earnestly contended for against the Prelates of the English Church . So partial is Self , so blind is Interest . But neither doth our Story end here ; for these Men forgetting their Primitive Tenderness , and that lowly Spirit , which justly charged the English Clergy with some Degeneracy , as had that done the Romish , were quickly Reminded by the timely and honest Zeal of those they call Independants and Anabaptists : who having a clearer Sight of things , as I believe , and more Regard for Reformation , at once charg'd them with neglect , and endeavour'd to push things a Step further . They lowdly exclaim'd against the Loosness of their Parishes , and their too free Administration of the Sacraments to mixt and unqualified Persons ; They decry'd the Absoluteness of their Church-Monarchy , with the Necessity of Humane Learning to Ministerial Qualification : And lastly , with great Earnestness they disclaim'd against the Imposition of any Faith or Worship , or punishing with Corporal Penalties , such as dissented for the sake of Conscience . One would have thought , these Men had set the last bounds to the Spirit of Superstition and Revenge , and that having seen the Rock on which their Predecessors split , they should have learnt Safety by their Destruction , and Construed those foregoing Calamities Land-marks for their preservation , as was anciently said — — aliena pericula cautum . that is , having beheld so many fair Adventures for Reformation ( begun certainly from an inward sense of the corrupt , and Un-Christ-like State of things ) to issue in Fulness , Pride , Superstition , and base Coertion upon Conscience , they should have liv'd in an holy Subjection , and awful Regard to that holy Spirit of Truth , that had given them some farther Illumination , which would have taught the Denial of those Worldly Lusts , that Covetousness and Revenge whetted their desires after , and have preserved them in the Way of Meekness , Patience , Long-suffering and Holiness , without which none shall ever see God. But alas ! as Reformation from Popery and Prelacy was soon over-run by Party-Asperity , and Self-Promotion ; so truly these Men made as little Conscience to employ the old Weapon of external Force to advance themselves , and depress others , as had those that went before them . 'T is true , the Presbyterian , who shewed them the Way , as had the Protestant him , and the Papist the Protestant , being so considerable in Number , and these Peoples Maxime so narrow ( viz. ) Out of a Church , out of the Faith ; Not Dipt , not Christian'd : That too great Division might not perish the whole Affair , of continuing the Government in its present Channel of incredible Advantage unto them , they much against their Will , admitted the Presbyterian into a share with them , especially of Parochial Churches , as they are called , and did not wholy exclude the more Moderate of them , a part in the Administration of the Civil Government . Thus then ( though with regret , and no small Jealousie ) being tollerably well agreed , like as he that from a poor Priest to a Pope , was wont to be remembred of his Original , by a Net ( because several of the Apostles were Fishermen ) which he commanded to be brought to his Table , when Pope , cried , Take it away , Take it away , the Fish is caught ; So they having caught the Great Two-Headed Fish of Civil and Ecclesiastical Power , and upon one a Crown , upon the other a Miter , Laodicea-like , Full , Rich , and wanting nothing , and willing to forget their small Original ; their Fathers House , those Heavenly Convictions , and their humble frame of Spirit , their early Sense in some good measure had reduct them to ; O! Into what Falsness , Cruelty , Covetousness , and Folly did they not precipitate themselves ! To violate Faith with Men , and break the most Solemn Covenants that any Age have ever made with GOD himself , to sayl to Security through Blood , and establish their Church in Persecution ; not un-like the Ottoman Emperors , that never think their Imperial Crowns better settled , then in the Murther of their Brethren . But above the rest , to decry Tyranny and Persecution , and yet to be the Authors of both ●…s if they could not have used their Power without abusing it , is unworthy the Name of true Men. I will believe succeeding times may have out-done them in Debauchery ; but I can never think ( unless better inform'd ) that any Age hath so much as equal'd them in a Treacherous Hypocrisie : though ( that I may be just ) several among them were not wanting to express their utter Abhorrence of such Procedure , which hath thus far aggravated the others Apostasie , that they were worse treated then such that were reputed their Publick Enemies ; as if not to be Treacherous , had been to be Dis-affected : concerning which I refer the Reader to the first and second Narratives , printed in the Year 1659. Certainly , it was now time , that God should arise , and that his Enemies should be manifest ; who , under the Splendidst Shew of Reformation , that almost any Age for 1400. Years could parallel , had Crucified the Holy Life of Religion , stifling the Spirituality thereof by reform'd Formality , empty Shews , and meer tinckling Cymbals of Sin-pleasing Doctrines : And their Primitive Tenderness being worn off by Time and Preferment , none grew more Superstitious and Persecuting then those who once seem'd most averse from it ( I charitably forbear the mention of particular Persons ) In short , Pride , Self-Seeking , and Self-Establishment , in Glory , Wealth , and Worldly Prosperity having undermin'd the Worthy Honesty , that was at first stirring in the Hearts of some of them : Behold a Glorious , but Empty Trunk of Profession ! as lofty as the Jews themselves , pretending to be Children of Abraham , and Heirs of the Promise , yet Servants to Sin ; Christians by Imputation , but not by Qualification ; saved in Christ , though lost , through Sin , in Themselves ; pray by the Spirit , yet their Duties unholy Things . Behold Babylon in one of her best Trims ! But it was at this time , serious Reader , when Religion was so much talk'd of , and so little practis'd , that it pleased the Eternal Wise God , who is unsearchable in his Goings , to appear , and manifest the Knowledge of Himself , by a Way contemptible to the World ( as indeed , when did he otherwise ) shewing himself first to Shepherds , and Men of mean Rank , whose , outward Abilities were as incapable to gain Applause from Men , as their Meanness to invite them : Men , Plain and Simple , who desired of long time above Worldly Treasure , they might be acquainted with the true & unchangable Way of God. All the Religion they were taught of Men , or the strength of Memory could collect from Books , joyn'd with their own Simplicity and Zeal , was not able to overcome the Enemies of their Souls , for whose Redemption God appear'd , and they often groan'd in secret ; being truly willing to undergo any cross , that might but help them to this Knowledge , after which they had daily thirsted more then for appointed Food . Thus , that no Flesh might glory in his Presence , did the Almighty God , according to his many Precious Promises , break in upon the Spirits of a poor despised People , by his terrible Power , which caused the old Foundations to shake , and begat holy Terror and Dread , because of the Glory of his Majesty , who had reveal'd Himself . Judgment overtook for Sin , and Righteousness was laid to the Plummet , and a true Scale was erected , wherein all the Profession in the World was lighter then the Chaff , which is blown away of the Tempest . This Day of Judgment for Sin , and Consumption upon all the pleasant Pictures of Religion , that Tradition , Education , or Imagination had drawn in the Minds of Men , they were constrain'd to Declare , and the very Utterings thereof were astonishing , both to Professors and Prophane ; For being Witnesses of a nearer thing , then an Out-side Religion , however refin'd , in which the whole World was adulterated from God , and that the Time of the Kindling of the Indignation of the Lord God Almighty was come , because of Iniquity and Unrighteousness that cover'd the Earth , as the Waters cover the Sea ( which made the Controversie Essential ; Not to consist about exterior Order , Church-Government , or meer Articles of Faith ; But that Inward Principle of Righteousness , which reduceth the Soul to the Heavenly Order , and that Faith which overcomes the World. ) Therefore in the Name of the Lord , and by the alone Arm of the Almighty , did several of these poor Men go forth into Towns , Citties , and Countries , proclaiming the Day of the Controversie of God with Men , by the pleadings of his Holy Light , Power , or Spirit in their Hearts and Consciences , decrying all Notions of Christ above Possession ; calling the lofty Cedars to bow , and the sturdy Oakes to bend before the Heavenly Appearance of the Lord , by his Light within : that all Knowledge of God , not gotten through inward Judgment , and Experience of the Operation of his saving Hand , was accurst of God : And that as the Earth of Wickedness in Mens Hearts should be consum'd by the Refiners Fire , so the Heavens of lofty Knowledge should by the fiery heat thereof , be wrapt up as a scrole , that a new Heaven and a new Earth , in which dwelleth ( not IMPU●…ATIVE , but ) Real , Inherent , & Everlasting Righ●…ousness , might be known to be created by the Word of God , nigh in the Heart . I say , these Men alarming the Nation with the Sound of this harsh and terrible Trumpet , who had taken so long a Nap in Pleasure , Ease , and Fleshly Religion , caused very strange , and differing Apprehensions . Some prickt to the very Heart , cryed out , What shall we do to he saved ? whilst the Wolf and the Fox lay in wait to intercept the blessed Work of the Lord , by several wayes of Cunning and Cruelty . The Priests ( who were degenerated as well as the People , basely Teaching for Hire , and Divining for Money : The best accounted of them making Bargains , how much a Year to preach the Gospel , as they call it , and so is it to this Day ) like Foxes seeing their Kennel found out , into which they had so long hid their Prey , and fearing that the Turning Men to the Light in the Conscience , and their so resolutely Testifying , That no Man could be at Peace with God who went condemn'd thereof ; and that all Knowledge of the things of God , which hath not been received through the holy Subjection of the Creature to God's Heavenly Appearance Within him ( for whatever may be known of God , is manifested within , saith the Apostle ) was above the true Teacher and the Sufferings of the Cross of Christ : They posted to the Magistrates , Saul-like , with whole Packets of Lyes , Slanders and Invectives , on purpose to beget a Wolf fish Nature in them , to put a stop to the Progress of this blessed Manifestation of the Eternal Light of Righteousness ; but the Exercise of a Merciless Power . Some few would not be prevailed upon ; but the Generality , seeing their Worldly Honour , and which to some of them was dearer , their beloved Easie Religion was struck at , Root and Branch , they , as an Arm'd Man , furiously employ'd their Strength to the Relief of the Priests , and Subversion of these poor Men : Some were Imprison'd , others Whipt , several Bruised , not a few Murther'd , and many Robb'd and Spoil'd of their Goods . And that the Priests might shew themselves ; some of them thinking it to long to wait the Magistrates Leisure , turn'd their own Pay-Masters upon Heads , Shoulders , and other Limbs of Men , and Women , not distinguishing in either Sex , or Age. The Cry of these Innocent People came up to the then Supream Authority , but Relief could not be had . One Book came out upon another , conjuring the Magistrates to employ their Power , to the utter Extirpation of these Seducers , & commanded the People that they should not so much as have any common Intercourse with them , but avoid them as the Pest , and fly them as Witches & Sorcerers : It were to irksom to tell the moity of their Stratagems . O the Mercys of these Men were Cruelties ! But yet farther , many things were writ by us in Vindication o●… our Innocency . Some that sought for the Redemption of Israel , and the Right Way of God , believ'd ; here & there a Simeon , a Centurion , a Priest , a Lawyer , a Physitian , a Customer , & Fisherman , and abundance of Handecrafts , for the Poor receiv'd the Gospel . But Alas ! Neither our Apologies , nor grievous Sufferings , were enough to allay that swelling spirit of Cruelty ; nor in the least affect the minds of Priests or Rulers with the Deploredness of our Condition , so as to redress all these grievious Sufferings : perhaps , somtimes a little shew of Favour there might be , but usually attended with a more terrible Storm . They at last ( I mean the Magistrates ) by the detestable Suggestions of the Priests , not having any Law in force , by which they could just●…fie the Rigor of their Carriage towards us , enacted first , that no Man should Travel on the Sabboth-Day , thereby to punish us as Criminals , for going to our Assemblies to Worship the living God ; and next , that such Persons as should be found above so many Miles from their own Homes , not being able to give a good account of themselves , should be whipt as Vagabonds ; by which Laws , they miserably opprest our Friends , many Men of considerable Estates , being worse us'd then very Vagabonds . Thus covering the one over with Devotion , for the Day of rest , and the other , with prudent care , for the Good of the Common-Wealth . Nor was this all ; but as if they would out-do the Ages of cruel Popery and degenerated Prelacy , they received both the Oath of Queen Mary , made against such Protestants as came to decry the Idolatrys and Superstitions of the Romish Worship in the time of their Service , thereby to justifie themselves in the Exercise of Cruelty and Revenge upon us , for bea●…ing our faithful Testimony against their Formal and Hypocritical Preachments ; and that Oa●…h of Abrogat●…on of Popery , that by the Advantage they took of our not Swearing at all , they might the better fasten upon us the Character of Papists , as Men Jesuited to that Interest , with plain Design to render us odious , and cover their own Cruelty ; Well may I say OUT-DONE , when pretended reformed Protestants , endeavour the Security of their Religion by the enaction of those Laws , which were made by Inhuman Papists , against such as in good measure we can say , were truly reformed Protestants ; thereby condemning that in the Papists , which they vigorously acted themselves : and basely sought to entrap us by a colourable Oath , wickedly forecast , because they knew we could not Swear at all , to punish us for not swearing against the Papists . This was their Cloak they had to cover their Malice , but it is grown to short , scanty , and out of date . The Bruises , Blood-shed , grievous Beatings and tedious Imprisonments which followed this procedure , are now seen with detestation of almost the very multitude it self , and after Generations shall have it in utter abhorrance . O what did not the Blood-thirsty Spirit in its Day ? These were the great pretending Presbyterians , Independents and Anabaptists , Fighting , Knocking , Kicking , Robbing , Imprisoning and Murthering an Innocen●… People , whose whole Business was to Deny the daw●…g Doctrines of the Times , and to Direct People to a certain Holy Principle in themselves , unto which being Obedient , they should experience Sin conquer'd , and Peace with God ; preferring this above all the Traditions of Men , or utmost Power of Human Ministry . But , as many of us saw in the Eternal Light , that such Obstinacy in both Priests and Rulers , to the Heavenly Truth , would provoke the Just God , to overturn them forever ( which though we did once and again tell them by Writings , and by Word of Mouth , they slighted our plain-Dealing , turning it upon us , that we should vanish in a little while ) So within very few Years God wrought the wonderfull Revolution ; and those who had been Inflicters of Heavy Punishments upon us , became the Objects of their greatest Dis-pleasure , whose Power and Estates they had so long usurp'd : I can call it no otherwise , for not the Country , but Self was wickedly advanc'd thereby . Behold the Justice of the Almighty , such as refused us our Liberty , after their Solemn Oathes to God and Men , for the Preservation of Liberties , Civil and Religious , became destitute of their Own ; and who spoil'd us , were spoil'd by Others , and we just now under their Fee●… , came upon Equal Terms with Our Adversaries : At what time , though both They and We , used our Endeavours to prevent Coertion upon Conscience , yet whether they prevailed or no , some were in Hopes , that the Edge of their Spirits , by this Change of Affairs , had been so doubl'd , as never more to cut , or wound a People that had never wrong'd them ; and that their Retirement would have been rather employ'd in hearty Sorrow , for their Abuse of Government , in their Unjust Severity , towards us as well as others , then a Continuance of the same Enmity . But thus far such fail'd in hopes , their Displeasure against us surviving their Power to inflict it ; for though it is true , that in time of Persecution , they would inquire out of their By-Holes , of our Well-fare ( for who had so long reigned shew'd they were most unfit for Suffering ) and like People upon City-Walls or from other conven●…ent standings , would diligently observe the State of things , and by their Observation , or Inquiry , carefully acquaint themselves with the Success ( for our Overthrow had been the End of them ) and as one of themselves said , We were the Bulworks that receiv'd the Shot ) Yet , so unabated hath their implacable Malice been ; at the King 's first coming in they thought to do great Matters by letting the Powers know they were no Abettors of the Quakers ; which indeed stood us in great stead , least we might have been taken for those Tumultuous , Blood-thirsty , Covenant-breaking , Government-destroying Anabaptists : and that they might prove to the World , we were not of them . No sooner those Storms of Persecution have been over , but like forgetful Mariners , they have faln to their Old Work of bitter Envying : Either some one of their Church leaves them ; or the Quakers are prosperous in their Labours ; or any thing else that is next for a Cover , to palliate their Emulous Spirit in all its base Detractions from us , and the blessed Truth . Which truly when I have beheld it , Grief has overwhelm'd my Soul , and a Pitty for their sakes has risen in my Heart , that all those Tryals , which rightly understood and improv'd , would have turned to great Advantage , should be as water spil'd on the Ground . Many Instances we have had , of this , since their Descending the Throne of Power ; Particularly in the Years 1668 , 1669. which time ; there being some respit , from any violent Persecution of men , upon the account of Conscience . What preaching was almost in every Meeting against the Dangerous Errors of the Quakers , as they pleas'd to traduce them , and how were they slander'd upon Several Stationers Stalls ? we could scarcely walk the Street , but our Ears must be disturb'd , with the Cryes of the Antidote against Quakerisme ; the Synopsis of Quakerisme ; the Damnable Heresie of the Quakers , with the like virulent Expressions , bestow'd upon us in their Title-Pages , to be-speak their Sale more easie , with Persons Inquisitive or prejudic'd . Nay , whilst they commended the King's Indulgence to their own Parties , and publickly render'd him their Acknowledgment of his Clemency , they sedulous endeavour'd my Imprisonment , in particular , and did not stick , both to character me the most wretched and enormious of Men , for a Book , they ( I may in a manner say ) extorted from me , and at that time too , when both my Body was straightly imprison'd , and my Life greatly indanger'd ; and as the Completement of their Wickedness , they maintain'd the Justness of my Confinement . But to pass over this , and observe the Consequence of succeeding Troubles ; The former Acts receiving New Life , from one more sharp and Cruel , what could we hope , but that this Act executed , were enough to make these Professors forever out of Love with Persecution , who are yet too warm Abettors of it . For , though their Vain Boasts of Standing , quickly vanisht at the Rattling of a few Musquets , and that God , by his Almighty , Invisible Power upheld us , through all those Hardships , of Bruises Blood-shed , broken Limbs , tedious Imprisonments , and Great Spoi●…ing of our Goods ( enough to melt the Hearts of Infidels ) And I cannot say , but then they would Nicodemus-like give us their Night-Encouragements ; some Blessing God that we were set to blunt the Edge of Persecution , and so be as a Bulwark for them ) yet so quickly did their Kindness coole , upon a Relaxation of such Procedure against us , that their Tenderness seem'd to Dye with the Hardness of our Persecutors ; For no sooner were we out of Prison , but instead of Congratulations , we were Saluted , or Affronted rather , with an Imposture from Lincoln , and a Lye from Dover ; the Former stampt by R. James , the Latter by T. Hobbs , both Anabaptists , as they are commonly call'd , to their own Infamy , and the great Disgrace of their Profession . These Beginnings , Reader , were followed by the pressing Endeavours of Our Dissenters in general , whether by Preaching , Disputing , Writing or other more secret Traducings , both in Cities and Country , but more especially in London : where the greatness of our Sufferings from the Powers , seems out-done by the Malicious Practices of Dissenters . Nay , so Restless are they in their Attempts against us , that they will Disturb themselves rather , then let us be Quiet ; and care not whom they molest , if the poor Quakers may but be render'd Odious ; witness among others a Libel , call'd The Spirit of the Quakers Tryed ; A Letter , subscrib'd J. G. and a Dialogue , T. H. ( the two Last of the same Fraternity with those before mention'd . ) Behold , what Use these Men make of Tolleration ! with which since Authority hath oblieg'd them , their Gratitude , or their P●…licy has turn'd the torrent of their virulent Hammer against us ; whom they daily wreak under their ungodly Hate , as if they were resolv'd to interrupt the King's Indulgence , with their Persecution : and by a kind of Revenge upon us for our Liberty , suffer it to be a time of Calm with none but themselves . But , what makes the Matter worse , some Emulous Spirits among them wisht , as I heard , for an other Storm , that the Quakers might but be shipwrackt by it . O strange Impiety ! that Men should lay our Prosperity so to Heart , as therefore to wish our Ruin ; and rather , then not effect it , run the Bold Hazard of their Own : Unless they resolve to keep their Old Haunt of Creeping into Garrats , Cheese-loifts , Coale-holes , and such like Mice-walkes , and using more Equivocation to hide a Meeting , then a Romish Priest hath been wont to do , to conceal his Function . Well may we take up a Lamentation for these things , that Men should so fearfully rend Religion from Charity , and Faith from the good Works of Patience , Mercy , and Universal Love , as if to Quarrel about Religion were to be Religious , and to call Names , and Jeer a Mark of Zeal and Witt. To Conclude , and sum up what I have said ; This hath been the Misery of almost every Reformation , that its Authors have Degenerated from their first Sense ( which plac'd Religion in a clean Conscience , not in a full Head : in Walking with God , more then in Talking of Him ) to Self-Promotion , and Persecution of all Dissenters from their Establishment : and the Cause of it is briefly this ; a 〈◊〉 from that He●…venly Illumination in themselves , setting up their Own Contrivance , before they had pull'd down all Contrivances of Men ; and their Covetousness , to advance their own Inventions ; and Impatience , to see them not assented to , ●…ave promoted Crue●…ty , and with this very Cup have the Nations been Drunk , as well Refin'd , as more Gross Professors of Religion . That God therefore fir●…t Appeared to , and Impower'd , and Sent forth Plain Men , to declare the Plain Truth , to turn Men from that Darkness , which cover'd their Hearts , notwithstanding their splendid Profession , to the Light that hath shined therein uncomprehended , which obeyed , was sufficient to Salvation ; that they were first Slandered , then Persecuted , and that by most Sorts : But their Persecution not always continuing from the Powers , they have been , and now are diligently followed by their old Adversaries , the Separatists , with their Cryes of Heresie , Error , Blasphemy , and the like , if possible , to make them a Burden upon Earth , witness their many printed Books and Impostures , particularly , The Spirit of the Quakers Tryed , The Letter , The Dialogue betwixt a Christian and a Quaker , Qu kerism no Christianity , and The Controversie Ended ; unto all which from Beginning to End , so far as concerns CHRIST , THE TRUE LIGHT , ENLIGHTNING ALL MEN , THAT EVER CAME , AND DO , OR SHALL COME INTO THE WORLD , WITH A SAVING LIGHT ; & WHAT IS THE GENERAL RULE OF FAITH TO CHRISTIANS , I here present the World with our plain & full Defence , having throughly considerd them , with what other Objections , I thought to carry any weight against Us : Which being our Fundamental Principle , if prov'd , the common Notion of Satisfaction for Sins past , present , and to come , Justification in the strictest Sense , without inherent Righteousness ; their fearful Tale of Predestination , and their P●…eas against Perfection will tumbleto the Ground . And I earnestly beseech the Reader in the Love of God , not to believe every wandring Book or Story that is out against us , but hear us before he passeth Judgement against us , and then let his Conscience tell , if We are not the True Apostolical Christians , promoting the Interest of the Pure Spiritual Apostolical Religion . For , what we believe and assert , we Witness ; We don't Steal , nor Robb our Neighbours , God has brought it to us , beyond all Imitation : Our Religion He has made our Own through his internal Operations ; And against Convictions there is no standing , as well as without them there can be no solid Knowledge : the want of which makes the World miserable , & renders us unknown . Having thus Historically introduc'd my present Discourse ; and my Witness is with God , the Rightteous Judge of all , not out of ill-Will to any , but in perfect Love to all , that the very Truth of things may be brought to Light , in order to a more clear Understanding of that Controversie , which is now on foot betwixt the so much despised Quakers and their Adversaries . For this let all know , I Write not for Controversie , but truly for Conscience sake , that not empty Conquest , but sound Conviction may be the End of all my Labours for the Lord my God , who is over and above every Name , worthy of Eternal Praises and Dominion . I shall conclude , with these Earnest Desires in uprightness of Soul to God ; that Truth , Righteousness and Peace may prevail to the more plain Detection of Error , and utter Confusion of all Envy and Prejudice . THE CONTENTS OF THE First Part. CHAP. I. The Occasion of the Discourse . The unhan●…some Dealing of T. Hicks , with respect to the Invented Weak●…ess 〈◊〉 charges upon the Quakers , as the strength of their Cause . Pag. 1. CHAP. II. The Gross Lyes Tho. Hicks tells in the Name of , or fastens upon the Quakers . Such Proceeding , full of Envy , Folly , and Ungodliness . pag. 4. CHAP. III. That he does not only make us impertinent and Lye ; But he mannages the Whole prophanely . That he who is an Anabaptist , has forgot the Scorn once cast upon his own Perswasion . Men are not to be mockt out of their Religion . pag. 7. CHAP. IV. That a Right-Relish of the Manner of the Dialogue is a sufficient Antidote against the Matter of it . His Questions stated . His feigned Answer . A True Answer to the First . What is Salvation ? To be saved from Sin and Wrath ; not Wrath without Sin. pag. 10. CHAP. V. The second Question stated . Particularly what is meant by Light. It is more then an Act ; It is a Principle that discovers the Sate of Man. pag. 12. CHAP. VI. That the Light Within manifests Sin ; yea , all Sin. That Apostacy , or Sin in any , is no Argument against the Light , but rather for it . That the Additional Services of the Jews show No Imperfection in the Light , but the People , whose Minds were abroad . If Insufficiency against the Light should be admitted of , because of Reb●…llion and Wickedness in Men , the same would be objected against the Scriptures , which overthrows our Adversary's Assortion concerning their Sufficiency . pag. 13. CHAP. VII . Another Objection against the Light 's Sufficiency to manifest what ought to be done , though it were able to discover what should be avoided . It is answered . The Light 's not telling 〈◊〉 all it knows , or man may know in time to come , is no Argument to prove , it knows not all things . Men know more then they do , let them first obey what they know , and then what is convenient will be further Reveal'd . It is proved from the Reason of Contraries ; because it show●… what ought not to be done : From Scripture at large , that 〈◊〉 instruct what to do ; and that there is Vertue in it to the Salvation of all that Believe and Obey it . That there is no ●…ssential Difference between the Seed , Light , Word , Spirit , Life ; Truth , Power , Vnctio●… , Bread , Water , Flesh and Blood ; only so denominated from the various Manif●…stations , Operatio●…s , and Effects of one and the same Divine Principle . pag. 17. CHAP. VIII . An Objection against the Light 's 〈◊〉 Being to Christ's Coming . It is proved to have been known to be a saving Light from Adam ' s Day , through the Holy Patriar●…s and ●…rophets time down to Ch●…ist's , from the Scriptures of Truth . pag. 25. CHAP. IX . Another Objection , that though the Jews had it , it will not f●…llow that the Gentiles were so illuminated . It is Answered by several Scriptures . In this Chapter quoted to prove , that they were not exempted ; but had a measure of Light , some Divine Seed sown in their Hearts , some Talent given , and that it was sufficient . T. Hicks ' s Challenge to give an Instance of one that by the Light within was reprov'd for not believing that Jesus was the Christ , is answered . Such as believed in the Light , and walkt up to it , did receive Christ when he came . The high Pretenders were they who to Scriptures Opposed , and Crucifi●…d him . The Light from Scripture concluded Universal and Saving . pag. 31. CHAP. X. That the Gentiles Believed in one God. That he enlightned all Men with a saving Light. That Men ought to live piously . That the Soul is immortal . That there is an Eternal Recompence . The Whole call'd Gentile-Divinity . The first Point proved by sixteen Testimonies . pag. 41. CHAP. XI . The second Fundamental of Gentile-Divinity , viz. That God hath Imprinted the Knowledge of Himself on the Mind of all Mankind , Proved from twelve pregnant T●…stimonies , as well of whole Societies , as particular Persons . Compared with Scripture . pag. 52. CHAP. XII . That this was not only the Doctrine and Faith of the Gentiles ; but the very primitive Doctors or Fathers both so held , and so exprest themselves : Eight Testimonies produced for Proof thereof . pag. 60. CHAP. XIII . The Third Part of Gentile-Divinity , viz. That they were Men of Vertuous Lives , and taught the Indispensibleness thereof to Life Eternal . Prov'd by Numerous Instanc●…s . pag. 66. CHAP. XIV . That the last Point of Gentile-Divinity , to wit , Immortality and Eternal Rewards , is also very clearly and positively held forth by the ancient Heathens : Six Testimonies from them , to prove it . Socrates ' s Great Faith in particular ; and the lofty Strain of the Pythagoreans . pag. 76. CHAP. XV. That the Heathens had a Sight of the Coming of Christ : That , and not Swearing , proves the Sufficien●…y of the Light. pag. 80. CHAP. XVI . It is granted that the Jew , and much more the Christian , hath the Advan●…age of the Gentile ; yet that the Gentile had enough to Salvation . pag. 84. CHAP. XVII . A great Objection stated ; Answered . The Light both Law and Gospel ; not in the same Discovery , but in it self . A Way to reconcile the seeming Difference about it ; The Light still defended . pag. 86. CHAP. XVIII . The second Part of the Objection , that Christ was not anciently called the Light ; Answered . And the Contrary proved from Scripture and Reason . pag. 91. CHAP. XIX . The third Part of the Objection : If Christ was enjoyed under the Law , as he was ; If the Light be Christ , why was he typified ? is proved of no Force . The Type and Anti-type in some respect may be at one and the same Time ; This is proved by plenty of Scripture . Our Adversaries Opposition and Cavil weak and insuccessful . pag. 94. CHAP. XX. The fourth Part of the Objection stated and considered . Christ ' s Death and Sufferings confossed to , and respected ; They were Beneficial . The Light of Christ within is the efficient Cause to Salvation . pag. 99. CHAP. XXI . A Confession in particular to Christ ' s Redemption , Remission , Justification and Salvation . pag. 104. CHAP. XXII . That Christ is the Light ; or , the Light is Christ , proved from Scripture , and so concluded ; notwitstanding two Objections , which are fully answer'd . pag. 114. CHAP. XXIII . The Universality of the Light proved by Reason . pag. 120. CHAP. XXIV . The Sufficiency of the Light proved by Reason . pag. 122. CHAP. XXV . The Question , Who He , or They are that obey the Light , & c ? consider'd and answered ; being a Character of 〈◊〉 true Quaker . pag. 124. CHAP. XXVI . The Discourse hithero summed up and concluded with an Exhortation to all Professors of Religion , especially our Opp●…sers . pag. 128. APPENDIX . Of the Rule of Faith and Life . pag. 135. Of the Judge of Controversie . pag. 155. Th●… Conclusion . pag. 160. THE CONTENTS OF THE Second Part , Entituled , The CHRISTIAN-QUAKER , and his Divine Testimony Vindicated : Which consists of several Treatises . The Contents of the First Treatise . To the Unprejudie●…d Reader , an Epistle , from pag. 3. to pag. 9. Some of the Doctrines and Contradictions of T. Hicks , declared at a Discourse between him and some of the Quakers ( so 〈◊〉 ) in Aldermanbury , London , the 20th of the 3d Moneth , 1672. p. 10 , 11. Christ's Light Within asserted , as it is Divine ( and therefore a sufficient Rule of Life unto Salvation to all that truly obey it ) and vindicated from Tho. Hicks ' s dark Exceptions , fallacious and Impious Arguments ( consisting of manifest Ignorance , Confusion and Ranterism ) which are here inserted , as they were exhibited in a Paper , afterwards owned and signed by him , from p. 13. to p. 23. Section 1. ( In Answer to his Dialogue ) The Light within proved Divine and Saving , &c. p. 24. § . 2. The Life , which is the Light of Men , not a Creature or meer Effect , &c. p. 27. § . 3. The Baptist ' s Quarrel grounded on his Mistakes about the Light , and our Testimony of it , p. 29. § . 4. Christ guideth to Salvation by his Inward Light ; and the Baptist Confounded in his Opposing it , p. 31. § . 5. The Dipper proved a Blind Guid●… , and in gross Confusion , in undervaluing the Light Within , p. 32. § . 6. His Ignorance of the Divine Principle , p. 34. § . 7. His Madness and Self-Contradiction about the Light , p. 35. § . 8. Christ , as the Rock of Ages ; and the Intent of his Coming in the Flesh not known to the Baptists , while they Oppose his Light Within , p. 37. § . 9. The Dipper plunged in a Labyri●…th of Self-Contradictions ; and the Light within proved a Rule above the Scriptures , p. 39. Sect. 10. The Subject , Understanding and Obeying the Light Within , unknown to the Cavilling Baptist , pag. 41. § . 11. Concerning the Soul of Man , as under divers Considerations and States ; and G. Fox ' s words so considered ; with Eight Queries added , from pag. 43. to pag. 47. § . 12. The Neck of the Baptist ' s Cause broken by his own Concession to the Light Within , in which Christ and his Testimonies are effectually received , p. 47. § . 13. The Baptist's impious Forgery upon the Quakers , about the Scriptures , which are in reallity owned and used by them , p. 49. § . 14. His impious Abuse about Revelation , Light Within , Scriptures , &c. from p. 50. to p. 56. § . 15. His partial Relation against John Story , p. 59. § . 16. The Baptist ' s Dispargement of the Light within , contrary to his own Pretence , p. 61 , 62 , 63 , 64. § . 17. His Slander about the Person , Offices , Sufferings and Blood of Christ , and continued Abuse of the Light Within , p. 65 , 66 , 67 , 68. § . 18. The Baptist ' s Quarrel against S. Crisp removed p. 69 , 70 , 71 , 72. § . 19. The End of Christ's Coming , Example and Suffering more truly owned by the Quaker then the Dipper , p. 73. § . 20. The Baptist ' s Ignorance and Cavil about Redemption , and the spiritual Discoveries of Christ and his Seed , p. 74 , 75 , 76. § . 21. The Baptist ' s imperfect Work against Perfection , p. 77 , 78 , 79 , 80. § . 22. Thomas Hicks ' s groundless Calumny and malicious Railing against George Whitehead , p. 81 , 82 , 83 , 84. § . 23. The Baptist ' s Abuse against G. W. about a Meeting with them at Devonshire-House , London , p. 85 , 86. The Contents of the Second Treatise [ entituled , LIGHT SPRUNG UP in the Despised Quaker , &c. ] are inserted next after the Title , before page 87. The Contents of the Third Treatise [ entituled , THE ANGRY ANABAPTIST proved Babylonish ] follow after the Title , before pag. 121. The Contents of a Bill of Excommunication exhibited by the Baptists at Chichester ; together with a brief Answer thereunto , from pag. 159. to pag. 166. Some Confessions concerning the Baptized Churches , made by their own Messengers in their Bewailing Epistle from Tiverton , from p. 167. to p. 170. The Fourth Treatise [ THE PRESBYTER's ANTIDOTE TRYED ] in Answer to Stephen Scandret . The Contents : Chap. I. A comprehensive Account concerning the Rule , the Light and Scripture , explaining both Our Sense of the Terms , and Stephen Scandrets : Together with the Assembly ' s Confession about the Scriptures , from p. 173 , to p. 180. Stephen Scandret ' s Sense about the Points in Controversie examined , p. 181 , 182 , 183 , 184 , 185. Chap. II. About JUSTIFICATION and IMPUTATION , from p. 185. to p. 209. Chap. III. About Christ's Justifying Righteousness , the best Robe ; the Necessity of its Inherence ( or being inwardly enjoyed ) not to invalidate , but to fulfil the blessed Intents and Ends of his Suffering , in Reply to S. S. from p. 210. to p. 224. Chap. IV. Of SATISFACTION ; some serious Considerations , farther opening the Doctrine and Sense of our Opposers , from p. 225. to p. 238. An Appendix , wherein the Controversie is summ'd up and resolv'd partly by way of Question and Answer , with a plain Intimation of my Sense thereof , as relating to the second , third and fourth Chapters before , fromp . 239 to p. 249. The Difference between our Opposer's Gospel and OUR's , briefly stated , p. 250 , 251. Chap. V. Concerning ELECTION and REPROBATION , from p. 252. to p. 290. The Contents thereof follow . A brief Introduction , with the Assembly ' s Opinion , and Stephen Scandret ' s uncertain Proposition for it , p. 253. Section 1. His Abuse of divers Scriptures in his State of the Case sor a Personal Election answer'd ; the Way of Goa's Choosiag resolv'd , p. 255. § . 2. The Weakness of his two first Arguments touching Gods Decree and Promises , p. 257. § . 3. His gross Ignorance of those Names written in the Lamb's Book Arg. 3. His Impertinency and ignorant Allegation , and Misunderstanding of divers Scriptures , concerning God's Choice and Ordination ; and the Cause of men's Destruction opened , against Arg. 4. Persons being chosen , proves not their Eternal Election , as Persons , p. 260. § . 4. Concerning Jacob and Esau ; Christ's Sheep , those that come , ●…ome drawn and given unto him of the Father , Arg. 5 & 6. p. 262. § . 5. Election explained ; God's Loving Jacob and hating Esau ; their Posterities concerned therein ; and how far the two Births were figured in Jacob and Esau , p. 265. § . 6. Our Opposer's blasphemously placing a partial Resolution upon God ( as creating Persons with Intention to leave them to Destruction ) contrary to his universal Call and Tend rs of Salvation , p. 268. § . 7. The Unchangeableness of God's Election , in what State ; and our Opposer's Ignorance and Error concerning God's Purpose , p. 269. § . 8. My Unanswered Objection of setting Life and Death before men , and Warning them of Destruction , p. 271. § . 9. The Cause of God's Hardening Pharaoh , Judas and others , not grounded upon meer Will and Pleasure , but for their Rebellion , p. 272. § . 10. Touching the Fall of particular Angels and Men ; the Tendence of God's Long-suffering towards the Wicked ; and my Opposer's Confession to Truth , to the utter Overthrow of his Opinion , p. 273. § . 11. Presbyters Mockery in their Warnings , and setting Life and Death , Conditional Promises and Threats before People , contrary to their Partial Opinion of an Eternal Personal Election and Reprobation , png. 275. Sect. 12. The sad Consequence of their Accusing God with decreeing to deny Saving Grace to particular Persons , yea , to the greater part of Mankind , shewing , that Divine Justice it self hath not so decreed , pag. 277. § . 13. Grace differing from Debt : The Reason why God finds Fault with Men : The Question , Who hath resisted his Will ? resolved , p. 278. § . 14. Their urging all to forsake Sin , contradictory to their Opinion , and not in true Faith : Their flattering many with fair Pretences , contrary to their own Intentions : The poor Encouragement and cold Comfort , that their Doctrine of a Personal Reprobation yields to the greatest part of Mankind , p. 279. § . 15. The Wise God , the Just Judge , is the Ordainer of the Punishment , not of the Fact ; nor the Author of Sin , or their Wickedness who persecuted Christ , p. 281. § . 16. Hypocritical Priests , making and strengthening Hypocrites by deceitfully daubing them up in their Sins , and flattering them with a [ YOU ARE NOT FALLEN FROM GRACE ] while they are guilty of gross VVickedness , p. 283. § . 17. Concerning God's Covenant with David and his Seed , and the Mystery typified in him , p. 284. To all which is added a Short Postscript concerning the WILL of God in its Manifestation ; 1st , as Unresistible ; 2dly , as Resistible , p. 286 , 287 , 288 , 289. Chap. VI. VVhether PERFECTION , that is , a State freed from all Sin , be attainable in this Life ? from p. 290. to p. 312. The Fifth Treatise , about the RESURRECTION , beginning at pag. 315. to the end of the Book . The RESURRECTION owned by us , and Scripturally asserted , with the Future and distinct Beings of Men & Angels ; and the Eternal Advantage , Glory & Felicity of the Righteous or Saints after Dissolution : The Scriptures spiritual Teftimony thereof , being owned and vindicated by us , in Opposition to our OPPOSER ' s CARNAL THOUGHTS about the Resurrection and future State , particularly in Answer to Tho. Hicks , W. Burnet and Thomas Danson . Unto which is annexed Thomas Vincent ' s Illustrations about the Resurrection , as partly an Explication of the Sense of the rest of our Opposers therein . Finally , Some Passages of Hen. Moor ' s , for the SPIRITUALITY of the Resurrection-Bodies , viz. the Body of Christ , and the Bodies of Saints . The Intent of all this Fifth Treatise being both to remove Groundless Objections , Unnecessary Questions and Fruitless Disputes about this Weighty and Mysterious Point of the Resurrection . THE CHRISTIAN-QUAKER And his DIVINE TESTIMONY VINDICATED , &c. Viz. The Universality & Sufficiency of Christ's LIGHT WITHIN , through all Ages to Eternal SALVATION : fully Stated and Defended . CHAP. I. The Occasion of the Discourse . The Unhandsome Dealing of our Adversary , with Respect to the Invented Weakness he chargeth upon the Quakers , as the Strength of their Cause . THere is a Book lately come to my Hands , intituled , A Dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker ; which with several others lately publisht against us , hath given Occasion for this general Undertaking . I was very curious to peruse that Discourse , which should make a Difference between them , having in my diligent Search after Religion , ever desired to understand and profess That , which upon true Convictions , I had Reason to believe was the most Christian : But as upon Impartial View I found the Weakness of that Book more favourable to us , then the Uncharitableness of the Title-Page , which seem'd to dis interest a Quaker in Christianity ; so most unexpectedly I found my Name , among others , often us'd , and as often undeservedly abus'd by the Author . I was not willing that any else should answer for my Faults , if any there were ; and if Innocent , I esteem'd my self both sufficient and oblig'd to my own Relief , which will not be hard to do : and the Reason is , because so little Reason , and so much Railing , have been by him imploy'd against me , as if he intended to scold rather then confute me ; and to let the World know , how much better skill'd He is in Scurrility then Argument . This I confess , drew me first into any Willingness of considering his Discourse at large : Not , that the Truth was not first in mine Eye ; but because I know the Person most concern'd with him , to be both able and resolv'd to reply , I thought my Endeavors ( at least for this time ) might have been very well excused . But so many Out-cries coming upon the Neck of another , if possible , to expel us the World , I found my self press'd in Spirit , to buckle my Mind to this Enterprise , notwithstanding that my late Concernment with some other Adversaries had left the Wearisomness of a Combat upon my Spirit , and the Hopes I had of being spared , by the ingenuous Acknowledgment of our Enemies , from the like Necessity of further Controversie . But as it fell out with the People of Syracuse , that several very Bad Tyrants were succeded by Worse ; so truly it hath done with us : The Confutation of one Adversary , redoubling Envy , Prejudice , and almost every evil Quality in the next ; as if to be overcome were more intollerable to them , then to find the TRUTH by it , would be Acceptable . Oh Lamentable Use that these Men make of our Love and Pains ! But we have some Cause to think , that failing of that Reason , which is necessary to prop so infirm a Cause , they would , if possible , supply the Want of it with the LAST WORD , which at Billings Gate , I hear , goeth a Great Way to Advantage , and turn the Scale in all Disputes . And truly , if the Temper of this Adversary be but consider'd , with what Help he himself has given us to do it ; For my part , I should stand amaz'd that any Sober , Civil or Christian Man , could refrain passing severe Sentence against him , as one that writeth of Religion , out of all Sence of either Religion , or good Manners ; and that only took Occasion , thereby to prove eminently to all Impartial Men , he really has neither . But to let that pass , I leave the Book to speak , for or against it self : I shall only premise , that though I have particularly observ'd the Manner of his Dialogue , as an apt Introduction , and that my Discourse has been occasion'd by this and several late Attempts made against the Truth ; Yet my Answer , to avoid their Accusation of Personal Heat , is not Immediate , Direct , or Particular to any one . The Matter of our Judgment , both with respect to the Light , and Rule ( comprehensive of all ) I have positively stated , and so defended by Plain Scripture , Sound Reason , and Universal Consent of former Ages : and what Force any Books , Argument , or Objections ( present with me ) whether from our Adversaries , especially T. Hick's , or my own Remembrance , I shall by the way Faithfully , and I hope , Effectually consider : To the end I may avoid the great Vanity , of Bragging of a Victory obtain'd against a Man of Straw , and Enemy of my own making , and that Detestable Sin , and Dis-ingenuous Practice , of charging those Lyes , and that weakness upon my Antagonist he never thought , nor could be guilty of . In short , what I have against the Book in general , and for the Truth and My self in particular , I shall in their proper Places produce ; And now descend so to do , with what convenient Brevity I can . First then , he has taken a very Unfair Way of Opposing our Principles ( if we may yet call them ours ) since instead of collecting what truly are so , and those most forceable Arguments We have been wont to offer in their Defence , out of our own Writings ( which in Honesty and Justice he ought to have done ) he presents the World with a Dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker , which we may truly say , are both of his own making , at once abusing both himself and that People ; For neither has he truly represented the Quaker , nor much more honest is his Character of a Christian : And whilst he doth most partially render , his own Opinions to be those of a true Christian , rather then a true Christians to be his , he brings in the poor despised Quaker , saying any thing that may be most Ridiculous , Weak and Impertinent to the Matter ; which Way of Confutation is so far from being truly Manly , much less Christian , that the Wisest Man may be so disguised into the Greatest Fool , and Truth it self seem vanquisht by the weakest Forces of her Enemies . It was by Wayes not less Injurious , though more Ingenious , that the esteem'd best Heathen of his time , was by some of his Emulating Contemporaries brought into utter Disgrace , with that only People , which once most of all deservedly admired him ; as they who will take the pains to read the Comical Abuses of Anytus and Aristophanes , upon Socrates may easily inform themselves : Whose Life being Blameless , and Vertue unparallel'd in his Day , did by his strict Precepts , and Example , so influence the People into a dis-like of those Comedians , and their loose Adherents , that till the frothy Spirit of the Multitude became reviv'd , by their ridiculous Representations of that worthy Man in a Play , it was impossible for them to work his Ruin. Methinks , this Man's Dialect savours of the same Spirit , though its Grossness tells us , It hath not the same Wit. Let me never have so infirm a Cause to manage , and grant me but Leave to make my Adversaries Answers , and I will never fear the Consequence of such Encounters . But , who will yield to this , that doth not first resolve to be Overcome ? Let T. Hicks but permit me that Liberty against his Water-Baptism in Defence of Childrens , and I will warrant him a Rebel to the Church of England . But doth he do as he would be done by ? If this be the Ne plus ultra , or Upshot of our Adversaries Strength , to feign Weakness for Us , that he may appear Some Body , I think , we need say no more , but leave it with every unprejudic'd Conscience to guess at the Meaning of such base Designes . Certainly , We have not been justly dealt with , nor our Cause weigh'd in the Equal Scale of Righteousness ; and indeed , this Imperfection is most of all incident to that Way of Writing . CHAP. II. The Gross Lyes Tho. Hicks tells in the Name of , or fastens upon the Quakers . Such proceeding , full of Envy , Folly , and Ungodliness . NExt , he has as well made us to Belye Our selves , and Principles , as to appear Impertinent ; a thing so fouly Uncharitable , indeed very wicked , as me-thinks , every Sober and impartial Mind may have just occasion to be scandaliz'd at his whole Enterprise . What! not only make us to answer in his own Language , but Lye in it , and that against our very Principles and Consciences too ; This is an Aggravation , at once , of his own Enmity , and the Imbecillity of his Cause . For can any believe , that knows us well , that when we are ask'd , as he fictiously doth in his Dialogue , Do you believe the Scriptures to be true sayings of God ? We should answer him thus ; So far as they agree to the Light in me . For , though it be thus far true , viz. that the true Light within is the same in kind with that which shined in the Hearts of the Holy Pen-Men , and therefore may rightly be said , to agree both in it self , and in the several Testimonies of Divers Ages ; and consequently it may truly be allow'd to judge of what are the sayings of God , from what are those of Wicked Men , &c. Yet has he disingenuously obtruded those Words by Way of Answer upon us , which he cannot find so laid down by any of us , much less all the Quakers . Again , in another place of his abusive Catechism , he thus Queries . Q. Then may I not conclude , that the Reason why you so freely Rail against , and Reproach your Opposers , is only to Secure your Credit with your own Proselytes ? which he thus makes the Quaker to answer . A. I cannot deny , but that there may be something of that in it . O Impudent Forgery ! Whether this Invention becomes a Man that has the least honest pretence to Christ's Pure Religion , or one who would be thought as Serious as an Anabaptist-Preacher ought to be , judge all you that read us ? I cannot believe , but Many who go under that Name , have more Tenderness and Conscience , then to abet this kind of Proceed against us . In short , It was an uncharitable Spirit ask'd the Question , and from that became a Lying one to answer it . Our Witness is with God , as to our Innocency in this very matter . But he proceeds . Q Will you be so Liberal of your Revilings , whether your Adversary gives occasion or not ? he answers for us . A. It concerns us to render them as Ridiculous as we can , and to make our Friends believe they do nothing but contradict themselves . Again to the same Unrighteous Purpose , Q. But doth not this signifie a very Dishonest and Malicious Mind in you ? He makes us return . A. We care not what you think , provided our Friends think not so . And to conclude his Slanders of this kind , hear him once more . Q. Doth not W. P. in his Book against the Author of the Spirit of the Quakers tryed , manifest great Displeasure against the Man for concealing his Name ; Suggesting , that if he knew it , then probably they 〈◊〉 have something , to detect him ? &c. I shall omit in this place making mine own Defence ; but be pleas'd Curteous Reader , to observe the Man's Answer , which he would have the World to believe was ours . A. Whatsoever thou or others may think of our Writings , we will give it out , that we have both answer'd and consuted our Adversaries , and our Friends will believe what we say in this matter , which is enough to us . O Lyes , Madness , and Folly. Certainly Reader , By this time thou canst not but with me believe , I had Reason enough to make this General Exception against the Dialogue , as neither becoming what I am so tender as to think , our bitter Adversary upon more serious Considerations might esteem a Right Christian ; nor yet that Character of a Quaker , which the more Sober Sort of Men , carry in their Minds concerning us : and in the fear of Almighty God , we do appeal to the Consciences of all People , that shall ever read us , whether we have been treated by this Man in his Dialogue and Catechism with that Spirit of Meekness , Righteousness and Truth , which is , or ought to be the Rule and Guide of Christian-Men in their undertakings , more especially in and about the very weighty matters of Religion . Indeed , we need no other Apology in this case , then the Folly of his Answers ; For all the World will think , we had least need of seeking the Good-Will of our Friends which we had already , and rather conclude it our interest , to care after , and not to slight what others say or believe concerning us . 'T is true , I perceive our Adversary is a great Slighter of Conscience , and that Light of Truth which should be the Instructer thereof , and therefore no wonder if we find so little of it in his Dialogue : but however , he sets little by it , preferring his most defective Head-Conceits before the holy certain DICTATES of the Heavenly Light in the Consciences of Men , as his Unconscionable Dealing with us sufficiently testifies ; yet is it our Desire to act suitably to that in our selves , and to seek the Approbation of it alone in others , rather then by a disingenuous way of Writing , obtrude our own Fictions for Christian-Faith , much less meer Impertinencies and very Lyes , for the only and best Answers of our Adversaries . CHAP. III. That he does not only make us Impertinent , and Lye ; But he mannages the Whole prophanely . That he who is an Anabaptist , has forgot the Scorn once cast upon his own Perswasion . Men are not to be mockt out of their Religion . BUt , He has not only made us to say what he pleas'd , Impertinently and untruly , but he has done it , with a manifest shew of Prophaneness , by a Light , Taunting and Inapplicable Use of those Expressions , which in a way of Seriousness and Simplicity , may have been sometimes uttered by honest and Religious People . Such are these , that he makes us to give , in Answer to his Questions , which we refuse not to render a distinct account of , to any Sober Man at any time , viz. Thou runnest into many Words and carnal Distinctions , and wouldst have thy fleshly Wisdom satisfied , but I tell thee , that Dust is the Serpents Food . To his Answer against the Sufficiency of the Light , he makes the Quaker Reply , I see thou art a Poor Dark Creature , as by thy talking is manifest , yea 't is manifest in the Light. To the like Purpose ; Thou art a wicked Creature , Blackness of Darkness is reserv'd for thee ; Thou art a Serpent , and the Curse of God is eternally upon thee . Again , Thou manifests thy Darkness , and that thou art still in the Imagination . Again , Thou lookst for Words , but thy Flesh must be silenc'd . Again , We witness it ; Poor Creature , Thou runst to the Letter , what dost thou witness in thy self ? Again , I command thy Flesh to be Silent ; I bear Witness against thee . At other times , in Answer to such like Questions , Yea , Verily . Alas for thee , These are thy own Dark Imaginations . Now thou runst to Meanings , We deny Meanings . Thou manifests a Perverse Spirit . We are dead to Distinctions . We deny Dispositions , Thou suggests thy own Imagination . These , Impartial Reader , with more of the like tendency , he is pleas'd to set down as our Strongest Answers to his Questions , several of them such , as have receiv'd , and yet may , very Rational and Satisfactory Returns from many of us : However , if any such kind of Answers have been given to the Unseasonable Queries of Airy and Entrapping Persons , neither is it more Ridiculous , then Christ's Immovable Silence to Inquisitive Herod was judged of old ; Nor did he Manfully , to assault our Weakest Part , if such he thought it . But least of all is he excusable , that one who is reputed an Anabaptist ; the very next in Religion , that seems expos'd to the Scoffs of Libertines , should take so much pains , not only to render a Sober People Ridiculous ( though it will return upon himself ) but with the common Taunts of Prophanenists , to venture to give their Serious Language in a Jeer : An Employment , that had much better become a Comedian , then a Christian , and the Entertainment of Loose , then Religious Persons . Certainly Reader , We must be at a very great Loss for Religion before we could embrace it from such a hand ; supposing us to be as meer Heathens , as he would have others to think us : For , how can we believe him , to have any Sincerity to God , who so far seems to have forgotten the Reproach , which his own Separation from others hath been attended with , as to make that of ours , a Subject for his Mockage and Scorn . Let him call to mind some of the Infamous Playes of those Comical Wits , Sylvester , Shackspeer , Johnson , &c. with too many of our own dayes , wherein the Preciseness and Singularity of Puritans and others , are abusively represented , and expos'd to the Life , for the Entertainment of Vain , and Irreligious Persons . If this then be a Crime in an unconcern'd Wit , can it be excusable in a Christian , for such he would have us think him to be ? No certainly ; but will be a great Aggravation of his Account in the Day of the Lord , unless it be wip'd out by unfeigned Repentance , as well as that it must needs deter all Persons , that are in earnest about the weighty Life of the true Religion , from countenancing his ungodly Attempts against us . And me-thinks , it is no small discovery of the exceeding Vanity of his Mind , that instead of putting away Foolish Jesting , he should entertain base Mockage and Derision , and that about Religion it self . What ? Is he grown so hardy , that he can handle Holy Things without Fear ; and make bold with tender Conscience , so far as to abuse it self ? Is Singularity become so offensive in a Quaker , as an Anabaptist must show his little Wit in Deriding it : But certainly , Reader , it can be no small Advantage , that both his Bitterness and Lightness , give us against a Man of his high Pretences to Religion . However , our Conquest here will be our Patience , Innocence , and Truth ; Not that I will believe , he thinks I want Words ( to whom , he more then once makes the having of them Criminal ) and all that read him may see , he hath furnisht me with Matter GROSS enough : But I delight not to spend my time upon Invectives , did I , perhaps I might bestow a Tragick Comedy upon a Railing Anabaptist , in return of that Ridiculons Dialogue , he disingenuously would fasten on an unconcerned Quaker : But my God forbid , that I should Sport about Religion ; or make so much as any Man 's pretended Religious Dissent , a Theam for my Railery or Abuse ; for I think it an ill way to Laugh men out of their Profession , as well as I can never esteem that any sincere one , which men are Jeer'd into : and as Conviction is the most Serious Ground , on which to receive Faith ; so , to detract , or deal disingenuously with any man , may harden , but can never Proselyte ; and this is our very Case , with respect to T. H. Yet I would have him know , That our so much reproached Light Within , he so little concerns the Government of his Life withal , incites us not to an Eye for an Eye ; but teacheth us that Forbearance and Forgiveness , which we have some Reason to believe , his Principles are wholly Strangers to ; else , what can mean his greedy Endeavours , To pluck out others Eyes , that never yet assaulted so much as one of his , either by Word or Writing . Well may we take up the Complaint of God's Prophet of old , We are had in Derision daily , and almost every one Mocketh us . But let the Carnal Christian-Mockers , have a Care ; for though their Cruel Mockings be our Portion in this Life , yet also , for a Recompence , shall their Bonds be made Strong , and a Consumption from the Lord of Hosts is determined against them , that persist therein . Having now rendered with all convenient Brevity my just Exceptions against the manner of the Dialogue , and spirit of the Man in general ; I shall proceed to offer something against the distinct Doctrines of it , in my particular Vindication of the Truth , viz. The Universality and Sufficiency of the Light Within , and Demonstration of the General Rule of Faith. CHAP. IV. That a Right Relish of the Manner of the Dialogue is a sufficient Antidote against the Matter of it . His Questions stated . His Feigned Answer . A True Answer to the First . What is Salvation . To be saved from Sin and Wrath ; not Wrath without Sin. WHat I have already said , being duly weighed , may be an apt Introduction to what follows ; For he that relishes the Unsavouriness and Rancour of His Spirit in the Mannagement of his pretended Christian-Dialogue , surely can have but little Appetite to feed upon , a Dish cook't up with such Poysonous Sauce . Enmity and Truth were never Companions ; and where there appears so great a share of the one , as hath been truly observed , we may , I hope , without Offence conclude , there can be but very little , if any , of the other . However , let us see , with Reason and Sobriety , whether the Matter of his Dialogue be more commendable , then the Manner of it , writ with so much Railing and Immoderation . For Reader , this know , I writ not for Conquest , but for Conscience sake : and what I can grant , I shall ; and what I must oppose , I hope , to do it with Truth and Meekness ; being only desirous to approve my self to God , who will Reward all men according to their Works ; and to that Measure of Divine Light in every Conscience , with which I shall begin , and which , as the Lord God shall enable me , I will endeavour to maintain against the Angry and Undervaluing Reflections of its Adversaries . To overlook then many unnecessary Queries , that are set down , either to Abuse us , to fill up Corners , or make the Dialogue glide the better , no wayes true in themselves , and wholly impertinent to the Matter , I receive and prosecute the Main Questions , which he propounds , thus : 1. What is that SALVATION , which the Light leads to ? 2. What is this LIGHT that leads to It ? and 3. Who this HE , or THEY are , that Obey this Light , and in Obeing attain Salvation ? Sober Questions , I grant , and as necessary to be known ; but I am willing first to set down the Answer he makes the Quaker to return , before I give mine own , that the Sober Reader may judge , how different the Reason of a True Quaker is from T. Hicks's Phantastical one . 〈◊〉 Thou runnest into many Words and Carnal Distinctions , and wouldst have thy Fleshly Wisdom satisfied ; but I tell thee , that Dust is the Serpent's Food . Is this to act the Christian , or the Scoffer towards the Quaker ? 'T is not to be doubted but T. H. knows better , and that he hath not herein done to us as he would be done by ; For all his Pretences to Christianity , he is thus far Debtor to , and Criminal by the LIGHT he vilifieth : But the Truth is , he therefore maketh his Quaker to render him no better Reason , whatever he knew , because indeed it was inconsistent with his Design that he should . But I will see if I can supply that voluntary Defect , in Rebuk to his Disingenuous Practice , on the behalf of the poor Abused Quaker . I answer : I. By SALVATION we understand , as by Scripture is deliver'd to us , A being saved from Sin here , and the Wages of it , which is Wrath to come : Whereby we are taught utterly to renounce and reject the common Acceptation of it , as the full and compleat Force of the Word , viz. barely to be saved from Punishment hereafter : In which Security , through a vain Expectance of Salvation , whilst not really & actually sav'd from the Power of Sin and the Captivation of Lusts , through the invisible Power of Christ , Thousands dye ; and T. Hicks is one of those that not only is inthroal'd himself , but earnestly contends for that Beggarly Faith and Religion , to be the most Christian , which is so unable to deliver both himself and others that believe in it . In short , We call Salvation , Christ's making an End of Sin , Destroying the Works of the Divel , Finishing of Transgression , Binding the Strong Man , and Spoyling of his Goods in the Hearts and Consciences of Men and Women ; and bringing in his Everlasting Righteousness into the Soul , whereby to Cleanse , Wash , Regenerate , Renew and Refresh the Soul ; in one Scripture-Phrase , to Save his People from their SINS . These are the Times of Refreshment , and this is the Day of Restitution ; and thus is HE King , to Reign ; Prophet , to give Vision ; and High Priest , to Anoint with the Holy Unction , that leadeth into all Truth ; whose Lips alone preserve Knowledge ; and therefore is it the Unchangeable Gospel-Rule to Believers : And those who are thus freed or saved here from the Power , Nature and Defilement of Sin , are the alone Persons , that are or shall be hereafter saved from Eternal Wrath and Vengeance , the heavy Recompenee of Sin. All this we understand by that Word Salvation ; and in this center the Great & Glorious Prophecies and Performances of Christ. CHAP. V. The Second Question stated : Particularly what is meant by Light. It is a Principle that discovers the State of Man , and leads to Blessedness . THE second Question runs thus : What is that LIGHT which leadeth to Salvation ? and if he pleaseth to give me leave , I will add to this Question , How doth It Lead to Salvation ? By Light I understand not the frequent Metaphorical Use of the Word ; as when Christ said , 〈◊〉 the Lights of the World ; or as the Apostle Speaks , Now are you Light in the Lord ; neither the meer Spirit or Reason of Man ; but , that Glorious Sun of Righteousness , and Heavenly Luminary of the Intellectual or Invisible World , represented of all Outward Resemblances , most exactly by the Great Sun of this Sensible and Visible World , that as his natural Light ariseth upon all , and gives Light to all , about the Affairs of this Life ; so that Divine Light arises upon all , and gives Light to all , that will receive it , about the Concerns of the other Life : Such a Light I mean by That Light which inlightneth every man coming into the World , and that leadeth those that obey it to Eternal Salvation ; The Scripture sayes no less , John 1. In the Word-God was Life , and that ( very ) Life was the Light of Men , that inlightneth every man , &c. But to demonstrate it the most obviously that I can , to the lowest Capacities , I shall evidence the Nature and Virtue of this Light by the Holy Effects of it , which is the HOW , or the WHICH WAY it leadeth to Salvation : This is so necessary in order to explicate the other , that as the Tree is known by his Fruits , so the True Saviour , by his Salvation . If then I can make it appear , that the Light , as obey'd in all its Discoveries and Requirings , is sufficient to Salvation , the Debate wil end , and T. Hicks must yield to the Efficacy of the Light within . I shall then by the Properties of the Light , prove it Saving : In order to which I shall begin with the first Step towards Salvation , namely , A Sight of the Cause of Damnation ; and from whom this most necessary Beginning must be taken , viz. The Light within ; which I thus prove by Scripture . CHAP VI. That the Light Within manifests Sin ; yea , all Sin. That Apostacy , or Sin in any , is no Argument against the Light , but rather for it . That the Additional Services of the Jews show No Imperfection in the Light , but the People , whose Minds were abroad . If Insufficiency against the Light should be admitted of , because of Rebellion and Wickedness in M●…n , the same would be objected against the Scriptures , which overthrows our Adversary's Assertion concerning their Sufficiency . THE Light with which Christ inlightens all Men , manifests Sin , as these Words import ; for every one that doth Evil hateth the Light , neither cometh to the Light , lest his Deeds should be Reproved : Implying , That if they would have brought their Deeds to the Light , the Light would have detected them , and tryed them . To which the Apostle Paul bears express Testimony , in his Epistle to the Ephesians , That whatsoever is Reproveable is made Manifest by the Light ; where the Universality of the Apostle's Assertion shows , that nothing that is Reproveable , is , or can be excluded from the Search or Knowledge of this Light ; which takes in as well Thoughts , as Words and Deeds . So that nothing being Reproveable , which the Light doth not first Manifest : How obvious is it to every Understanding , that if our Adversary believeth all Men to have committed Sin , and so , as that they know it ( which is Reproveable ) the Light must needs have been , and be in all Men , in order to such Manifestation and Conviction . It is as much as if the Apostle had said , * Sin is that which Damns all Men ; now it could not Damn , if it were not Reproveable ; and it could never be Reproveable , if the Light did not Manifest and Condemn it as such . So that our Adversaries affirming the Light not to be Sufficient to Discern all Sin , is a flat Repugnancy , and a down-right giving of the Lye to the Apostle ; For says the Apostle , All things that are Reproveable , are made Manifest by the Light. But sayes Tho. Hicks , All things that are Reproveable , are not made Manifest by the Light. Sober Reader , dwell here a while , and after a little paws tell me , Who deals most Unworthily with the Apostle and the Holy Scriptures of Truth , T. Hicks or the Quakers ? Obj. But T. Hicks objects , with some others , If there be that Light in all Men , how comes it , that all Men are not Convicted of their Disobedience and Duty , as the Heathens of old , and many Infidels at this day ? Did the Light in Saul reprove him for Persecuting the Church ? I Answer , That this no way impugnes the Light , although it greatly aggravates their Evil that so Rebell'd against it . But that there were Heathens , who became a Law unto themselves , through that Light they had , by which they did the things contained in the Law , and were preferred far before the Circumcision that kept not the Law : The Apostle Paul himself is very express in that known Passage to the Romans . Nor are other Histories silent , but loud in their acknowledgment of very Divine Attainments , which by this Light several Famous Gentiles arrived at ; and for their Belief of One Eternal Being , his Communication of Divine Light to Men , and of an Immortality , with their Strickt Conformity thereto , are left upon Record . by Credible Historians ; and their Praises not a little added to by after Ages , even of those called Christians too . Such are Reputed , Pythagoras , Timeus , Solon , Bias , Chilon , Anaxagoras , Socrates , Plato , Antisthenes , Xenocrates , Zeno , Antipater , Seneca , Epictetus , and others . But what if Jews and Gentiles at any time did Apostatize , and particularly ? What if Saul persecuted the Church of God , putting Disobedience for Duty , Murder for Service ? Will it follow , that the Light was Insufficient ? By no means ; but rather that Saul was Rebellious , Stiff-necked , Resisting the Holy Ghost ; as did his Fathers , so did he ; and thus much the Words themselves show ; for he kickt against the Pricks . Then it seems there were Pricks ; And where were they , if not in his Conscience ? And what were they , if not the Light of Christ within him , which Manifests Evil , and Reproves the Deeds thereof : otherwise called that Son of God , that to the Galatians he said , It had pleased God to reveal in him ? though Paul knew him not , nor his Voice of a long time ; his Eye being darkened , and Ear stopt by the God of this World , who had crept into the Outward Forms of Religion , then , as now , and in that employ'd many Emissaries to decry that Pure , Heavenly and Invisible Life of Truth and Righteousness , which was then , and is now begotten in the Hearts of many , to the ending of the Idolatries of the Gentiles , and Formality and Outward Services of both Jews and Carnal Christians . And I affirm in the Name of God , and with the Reason of a Man , That it is most preposterously absurd , for any to charge the Rebellion of Men , to be Insufficiency in the Light : For if men are Wicked , not because they will not be better ; but because they neither see nor know , nor are able to do better ; How Heavy , how Black , and how Blasphemous a Charecter doth the Consequence of these Mens Opinion fasten upon the Righteous God of Heaven and Earth ; since it supposes him , Not to have given either Inwardly or Outwardly unto Men Means sufficient to do that which he requires from them ; and for the not doing of which , they are to be sentenced to Eternal Misery . But I confess , How deep soever this may stick with Impartial Spirits , I almost despair of entering our Adversaries , whose Souls are pinch'd up within the narrow Compass of a most Detestable Kind of Predestination , making the Eternal God , as Partial as themselves , like some Ancients , That because they could not Resemble God , they would make such Gods as might Resemble them . I say , what else can be the tendency of this kind of Doctrine against the Sufficiency of the Light Within , then that the Gift of God is not Perfect , or able , because Men don't Obey it : and that the Talent God has given to all , is therefore Insufficient for the End for which it was given , because Man hides it in a Napkin ? Again , Let them tell me , Would it be a good Argument , that if the same Corn should be sown in a Fertile and Barren Soile , that growing in one , and not in the other , the Fault should be in the Seed , and not rather in the Ground ? Who knows not , how Tradition and Custom have eaten out much of Conviction , blinded the World , and that it is through Lusts and Pleasures become stupified , as to the Invisible Things of God. Alas ! there had never been so much Need of many Exteriour Dispensations and Appearances in reference to Religion , so much preferred by the Professors of this Day , had not Mens Minds been departed from the Inward Light and Life of Righteousness ; so that they being abroad , God was pleased to meet them there with some External Manifestations , yet so , as to turn them home again to their first Love , to that Light and Life , which was given of God , as the Way to Eternal Salvation : Nor could any of those cleanse , as concerning the Conscience ; wherefore God still , by his Servants and Prophets , admonished and warned the People of Old , To Put Away the Evil of their Doings , and to Wash themselves , and to Cleanse themselves ; for that all their Exactness in Outward Services , was otherwise but as the Cutting off a Dog's Neck , a Sacrifice equally pleasing : wherefore the Abrogation of all Outward Dispensations , and Reducing Man to his first State of Inward Light and Righteousness , is called in Scripture , The Times of Refreshment , and of the Restitution of all things . In short , Though there have been External Observations , and Ordinances in the World , by God's appointment ; either to prevent the Jews from the Outward splendid Worship of the Idolatrous Gentiles , that he might retain a Peculiar Soveraignity over them ; or to show forth unto them a more Hidden and Invisible Glory ; this remains sure forever , That Light there was , and that the Ancients saw their Sins by it , and that there could be no Acceptance with God , but as they walk'd up to it , and were taught to put away the Evil of their Doings by it ; suitable to that Notable Passage , The Path of the Just is a shining Light , that shines clearer and clearer unto the Perfect Day . What was this Day , but compleat Salvation ? Can there be any Imperfection or Darkness in the Day ? Surely no : What if their Light was not so large ? Was it not therefore Saving ? Yes surely . But as where much is given , much is required ; so where little is given , but little is required . If the Light was not so Gloriously manifested before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Flesh , less was then required at that time , then since ; yet it follows not , that there was Two Lights , or that the Light was not Saving before the Visible Appearance of Christ , to as many as lived in an Holy Conformity to it . And if it be agreed , that Blindness in Men can be no Argument against the Light of the Sun ; neither is the Light Insufficient , because the People of any Nation remain Blind through their Vain Customs : Nay , should any such Doctrine be admitted , what would become of our Adversary's Opinion , That the Light of Scripture is Sufficient of it self to give Men the Knowledge of God ? For if those People , who have the Scriptures , do not so Know , Believe and Obey God , as T. Hicks says , they ought to do ; will it not follow upon his Principles , that the Defect is not in such , as if they were Ignorant and Rebellious , but in the Scriptures ? Certainly the Consequence will hold as well against the Scriptures , as the Light : If then such wrong the Scriptures , who so dispute , Let T. Hicks , I intreat him , endeavour to Right the Light , and not longer maintain a Position , that being admitted , would equally overturn his Notion of the Scriptures , without Belief of the Light Within . CHAP. VII . Another Objection against the Lights Sufficiency to manifest what ought to be done , though it were able to discover what should be avoided . It is answerd . The Lights not telling man all it knows , or man may know in time to come , is no Argument to prove it knows not all things . Men know more then they do , let them first Obey what they know , and then what is convenient will be further Reveal'd . It is proved from the Reason of Contraries ; because it shows what ought not to be done : From Scripture at large , that it does instruct what to do ; And that there is Vertue in it to the Salvation of all that Believe and Obey it . That there is no Essential Difference between the Seed , Light , Word , Spirit , Life , Truth , Power , Unction , Bread , Water , Flesh and Blood ; onely so denominated from the various Manifestations , Operations , and Effects of one and the same Divine Principle . BUt there is a Second Objection ; That there seems to be a manifest Insufficiency in the Light : For , though several things are Revealed by it , yet several necessary matters are not , nor cannot ; So that though it should manifest all that is Reproveable , yet cannot it Discover all that is Necessary to be either Believed or Done. I Answer , this is but a peece of the former Objection already considered ; I perceive the Pinch lies here ; that because Men do not Do what they should , or don't Know all that may be Necessary to be known , therefore the Light is Insufficient . The first will be answer'd by what I have already said ; the Reason being the same for the Sufficiency of the Light , against such as charge it with Defect , because they do not do what they should , as against those who so impeach it , because they do those things which they should not . As for not knowing all that is to be known , I deny it utterly , For things are necessary in reference to their proper times ; That may be requisit to morrow which is not to day . It is fit for Children to learn to read , yet it is most necessary , that they should begin to spell first . If a School-Master should be charg'd with Insufficieney , because he tells not little Children , all that he knows , as soon as he initiates them in the first Principles of Learning , he would think himself unreasonably dealt with . What must we then conclude , but that the Master may be very capable , were his Scholar so ? that if the Scholar observe and obey his Master , he will increase in his Learning , that the Defect of the Scholar should not be laid upon his Master ; that to tell or amuse him about things unsuitable to his present Capacity , were the ready Way to overcharge and wholy Spoile him : And Consequently that the Tutor , not telling his Pupil , all that is fit to be known , at once , implyes no Defect in , or Ignorance of those things in the Tutor ; which to apply Scripturally , in short thus : If you do my Will , you shall know ( more ) of my Doctrine ; I have yet many things to say , but you are not able to bear them now . In short , If for a Man to say that the Light of the Gospel ( for so T. Hicks thinks Pauls was ) to be charg'd with Insufficiency , because it discover'd not to every Believer , all those ineffable things , revealed to the Apostle , would be both False and Antichristian ; to what an Extremity doth Tho. Hicks's Zeal lead him in his passionate Endeavours against the blessed Light of the Son of God as he is the Inlightner of Mankind , who charges it with Insufficiency , because it Reveals not to every Individual , in every Age , what HE shall ever know it self , or shall be known in future times . The Light then is not Insufficient , though it tell not all at one time , which may be a Duty to the End of the World ; especially in extraordinary Cases , whilst it informs me , or any Man , of Daily Duty . Yea , the Light is Sufficient in Point of Discovery , whilst it shews unto any Person something more , then they do , and which they ought to perform . If T. Hicks will say , and can prove , that he is come to the Upshot of the Light 's Teachings , that he has Learnt whatever it is possible for the Light of Christ to Teach him , and yet is able to make appear , that there is some thing further wanting , he will prove himself not only above Men , but God also , who is the Fountain of all Light ; that searcheth the Hearts , and tryeth the Reins of Men by the Inshinings of his manifesting Light , and which , as obey'd , leads to God , who is the Fulness of all Light and Life : But indeed , this Light is the Savour of Death ( the Wages of Sin ) to all that Rebel against it , and the Savour of Life to those only , who are Obedient to it ; For , Such shall not walk in Darkness , but have the Light of Life . But , whilst he pleads against a Sin-less State , and shows so Sin-full an One in his Scribles , let him cover his Face for Shame , for all his Attempts against the Lights Sufficiency ; for in that State he shall never know the Life and Vertue of the Light. To conclude , If the Light be allowed to Manifest all things that are Reproveable , then by the just Reason of Contraries , should it be Sufficient to Discover all things that are Approveable , with respect to Man's Faith , Salvation and Duty . If the Light tells it is Evil , not to Believe in God , it follows , that to Believe in God , is according to that Light Within . And if it Reproves T. Hicks for being Passionate , it consequently Teacheth him , that he ought to be Patient : If the Light Condemns Theft , it necessarily Instructeth to Honesty : If it Reprove me for doing my own Will , it implies I ought to do his Will to whom I ow all : and if it Reproves for Sin , it Instructeth to Holiness , without which none shall see God. In short , If it Manifest Reproveable Things to be such , at the same time It Condemns them , and Teacheth Things quite Contrary ; The Unfruitful Works of Darkness are judg'd by the Light , that the Holy Fruits of the Light may appear : ●…e were Darkness , but now are ye Light in the Lord ; and The Reproof of Instruction is the Way of Life . He that comes out of the Reproved Darkness , walks in the Approved Light ; and who so answers the Holy Reproof , unto Such is Sealed up THE INSTRUCTION OF THE WAY OF LIFE . And this brings me to the third Property of the Light , with respect to Men ; and that is , It doth not only Manifest and Condemn Sin , and discover and incline to Purity ; but as adhered to ( or rather that Principle which is this Light ) it is able , in Point of Power and Efficacy to Redeem from Sin , and Lead to a State of Highest Felicity . I am the Light of the World , ( said Jesus himself ) he that follows me shall not walk in Darkness , but shall have the Light of Life . In which it is very evident , that , The same Light , which Manifests Darkness , Redeems from it , unto a State of Light and Life : that is to say , Those who confidently believe in Christ , as he manifests himself a Light , to condemn Sin in every mans Flesh ( whom he hath therefore illuminated ) and obediently follow the Holy Requirings , and yield to the Heavenly Discoveries of that Blessed Appearance , relinquishing the Pleasures of Sin , which last but for a season , and taking up the daily Cross ; such shall most assuredly find that Divine Principle , which in reference to the Dark State of Men , and that Discerning and Conviction it brings , is rightly denominated Light , to have also Power and Efficacy , to Save from that which it manifests and condemns , and to bring unto that Glory , which it gives a true Revelation of : For , that same Word of God , who is called the true Light that inlighteneth all Mankind , is also the Life , Power , Wisdom and Righteousness of the Father , in whom are hid all the Treasures of Wisdom , and unto whom all Power both in Heaven and in Earth are committed , who is Heir of all things : who also said , While ye have the Light ( for their Day of Visitation was almost over ) or , as some Translations more truly have it , While you have a little Light IN YOU , believe , or walk in it . ) believe in the Light , that ye may be Children of th●… Light : Again , I am come a Light into the World , that whosoever believes in me should not abide in Darkness : So that a Sincere Faith in , and Obedience to the Light of Christ , as it shines in the Heart , whereby to give the Living and Experimental Knowledge of the Glory of God unto the Creature , is the Way to be Redeemed from Darkness , and to be made a Child of Light ; or that there is Power and Vertue Sufficient in the Light , to Ransom the Souls of such as diligently adhere to it , from under the Power of Darkness . For as the true Knowledge of God is Life Eternal , so , whatever may be known of God is manifested within , which Manifestation cannot properly be without the Light , whose peculiar Property it is to Discover , Reveal or Manifest the Mind and Will of God to Mankind ; as saith the Apostle , For whatsoever doth make Manifest is Light. In him was Life , and that Life was the Light of all Men : But not therefore the Life of all Men , Spiritually and Unitedly considered ; That was the peculiar Priviledge of those who Believ'd in it , and walkt up to it . There is a great Difference , not in the Principle , but in its Appearance to Man , as Life , and Light. Such as believe in it ; IT , What ? the Word-God , who is that true Light , as he appears to Discover or Illuminate the Heart and Conscience , do really know and enjoy a new Nature , Spirit and Life ; And in that Sense it may be said , As the Life became the Light , so the Light became the Life again . Who so follows me shall not walk in Darkness , but have the Light of Life . Not , that there is a Difference , or so much as a Descent in Kind from Life to Light ; only in Operation with respect to Man : For as it is the very Life of the Word , in the Word , it is the Light of Men : and so much it is , let them reject the Vertue of it , if they will. But as it is received , and believed in , It begets Life , Motion , Heat , and every Divine Qualification , suitable to the State of the New Birth . And thus the Life of the Word , which is in common the Light , becomes the Life of every such Particular , by communicating to , or ingenerating Life in the Soul ; so that no more he lives , but Christ ( the Word-God , whom he hath now put on , and who is become his very Life , as well as Light ) that dwelleth in him . Let not Men then in their Dark Imaginations , with their Rob'd Knowledge from the Letter of the Scriptures themselves , contend against the Sufficiency of what they obey not ; neither have seriously tryed the Power , Vertue , and Efficacy of it , which brings Salvation to as many as are turned to it , and abide in it . And indeed , so express are the Scriptures in Defence of the Sufficiency , and Necessity of the Light to Salvation , that it seems to have been the great Intendment of our Lord Jesus Christ in delegating his Disciples , to preach his Everlasting Gospel , viz. That they might open the Eyes of People , and turn them from Darkness to the Light , and from the Power of Satan unto God , that they might receive Remission of Sins , and an Inheritance among them that are Sanctified through Faith , that is in Me ; who , ME : that am both the Light of the World , and the Power of God unto Salvation . Now certainly , the Eyes that were then blind , were not the Natural , but Spiritual Eyes of Men ( and such must the Darkness and Light be also ) blinded by the God of this World , who raigned in the Hearts of the Children of Disobedience : No Wonder then if the Light was not comprehended of the Darkness , and that blind People did not see the Light ; but it plainly proves , That Light there was , though not seen . Now the Work of the Powerful Ministry of the Apostles was , To open the Blind or Dark Eye , which the God of the World had blinded , and then to turn them from that Darkness , to the Light ; the Darkness was within , so must the Light have been ; since the Illumination was there necessary , where the Darkness had been predominant ; Consequently , The Way to be Translated from Satan's Power to God , to have Remission of Sins , and an Inheritance with them that are Sanctified , is , to be turned from the Darkness in the Heart , unto the Marvelous Light ( that had long shined uncomprehended ) to wit , the GOSPEL , which is called both the Light and Power of God. The same Apostle in his Epistle to the Romans , is more express concerning the holy Nature and Efficacy of the Light to Salvation , when he thus exhorts them ; The Night is far spent , the Day is at hand ; Let us therefore cast off the Works of Darkness , and put on the Armour of Light : Let us walk honestly as in the Day , not in Rioting and Drunkenness , not in Chambring and Wantonness , not in Strife and Envy ; but put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ , and make no provision for the Flesh , to fulfill the Lusts thereof . From whence I shall briefly remark three Things , greatly to our Purpose , and the Truths Defence in this Matter . 1. That there is an absolute Opposition , betwixt Light and Darkness ; as Darkness can only Vail the Light , from the Understandings of Men ; So Light only can Discover and Dispel that Darkness . Or thus , That the Light Manifests and Condemns the Works of Darkness ; for , what Communion hath Light with Darkness . 2. That in the Light there is ARMOUR , which being put on , is able to Conquer the Darkness , and Secure the Soul , from the evil of it ; otherwise it would be very strange , that the Apostle should exhort the People to put it on . 3. That putting on the Armour of the Light , and putting on the Lord Jesus Christ ( the Light of the World ) are Synonimous , or one and the same thing ; for it is for one and the same End , as may be observed from the Words , Let us put on the Armour of Light , and walk Honestly , as in the Day , not in Rioting and Drunkenness , not in Chambring and Wantonness , not in Strife and Envying . But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ , and make no provision for the Flesh , to fulfil the Lusts thereof . I hope then , Neither will it be disallow'd , that Christ is that Light , with which Men are Inlightned ( but more of that anon ) nor is that Light , Men are exhorted to Obey , a Naked and Insufficient , but a Searching , Expelling , Powerful and Arming Light , against Darkness , and all its Unfruitful Works , and consequently SAVING . Thus the Beloved Disciple testifies very emphatically , in his first Epistle , where he gives us a Relation of the Apostolical Mission : This then is the Message which we have heard of him , and declare unto you ; That God is Light , and in him is no Darkness at all ; if we say , we have Fellowship with him , and walk in Darkness , we Lye , and do not the Truth ; But if we walk in the Light , as he is in the Light , we have Fellowship one with another , and the Blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all Sin. Here is a brief Stating of the whole Great Case of Salvation : ( 1. ) What God is ; Light. ( 2. ) Who can have no Fellowship with him ; such as walk in Darkness ( that is Sin. ) ( 3. ) Who have Fellowship with him ; such as walk in the Light , as he is Light. ( 4. ) the Reason why , is given ; because such as walk in the Light , are there sure experimentally to feel the Vertue of Christ's Blood , to cleanse them from all Unrightcousness ; Where observe , that the Light 's leading out of Darkness , that is , Unrighteousness , is the same with the Blood of Jesus Christ cleansing from all Sin ; Sin and Darkness , and to be cleansed from the one , and to be translated from the other , is equivalent ; otherwise , a Man might be delivered from Darkness , and walk in the Light , and not be cleansed from Sin , which is that Darkness ; a thing Absurd and Impossible : In short , they go together . By this 't is evident , that the Light being walkt in , doth directly lead to God , and Fellowship with him , who is the Saving Light and Health of all Nations ; and consequently , that the Light leads to Eternal Salvation . Many are the Denominations that are given in Scripture to one and the same Being , or Condition ; Christ is called , The Word , the Light , the Saviour , Emanuel , a Rock , a Door , a Vine , a Shepherd , &c. A State of Sin is sometimes called , Darkness , Death , Disobedience , Barrenness , Rebellion , Stiff-neckedness , Eating of Sowr Grapes ; And Wicked Men , Bryars , Thorns , Thistles , Tares , Dead Trees , Wolves , Goats , &c. On the contrary , a State of Conversion , is sometimes expressed , by such words , as , Purged , Refined , Washed , Cleansed , Sanctified , Justified , Led by the Spirit , Baptized by one Spirit into one Body , Regenerated , Redeemed , Saved , Bought with a Price , &c. And Persons so qualified , The Children of God , Children of Light , Heirs of Glory , Lambs , Sheep , Wheat ; And that by which they become or continue thus , Light , Spirit , Fire , Sword , Hammer , Power , Grace , Seed , Truth , Way , Life , Blood , Water , Bread , Word , Unction , that leadeth into all Truth ; All which respectively , is but one and the same in Nature : That is , Sin or a Sinful State is so variously denominated from the divers Operations and Discoveries of the Nature of it in Wicked Men. The like may be said of the several Vertues in Good and Holy Men , and so of that one Divine Principle , which so qualifies and preserves them ; For as the Primitive Saints felt the Operation of the One Holy Principle , so they denominated it : to men in Darkness , they call'd it Light ; to such as believed and obeyed , It became a Leader ; and those who witnessed their Sins conquer'd , their Lusts cut down , their Hearts broken , and their Souls Washed , Redeemed and daily Nourished , they called that Divine Principle , a Sword , Fire , Hammer , Water , Flesh , Blood , and Bread , and Seed of Life . In short , The same Heavenly Principle became Light , Wisdom , Power , Counsel , Redemption , Sanctification , and Eternal Salvation unto those who believed in it : So that the Variety of Expressions in the Scriptures , must not be taken for so many distinct things in kind , no ; nor sometimes in Operation . And indeed , notwithstanding that Light , T. Hicks would have lodg'd in the bare Scriptures , exclusive of the Spirit , all the Men of the World met together , would be confounded , to give a true Account of the Matter therein contained , if they were not Living Experimental Witnesses ; For as he is not an Evidence sufficient in Laws Humane , that was not an Eye or Ear Witness ; neither are they Evidences for God and Christ , who are not Eye and Ear Witnesses of the Light , Spirit , Grace and Word of God in the Heart . And I boldly affirm , the Scriptures speak no more for such , as are not Inheritors of that Blessed Condition , they declare of in some Measure or other , then any Deed of Gift would do for a Person no wayes Nam'd or Interested therein . It is time then for T. Hicks and his Partners to look about them , lest the Midnight-Cry overtake them , and their Professing Lamp be found without Oyl : For I must needs tell him , in the Beloved Disciple's Language , He that saith , he is in the Light ; and 〈◊〉 his Brother , is in the Darkness even until now . And in my own Language , That I take that to be their State , who shew so much Envious Displeasure against an Harmless People , and those in particular , that never yet Offended , much less Justly provokt them . But would they bring their Thoughts , Words and Deeds to the Light in their own Consciences , and let true Judgment pass upon them , and patiently undergo the Heavenly Chastisements for their Disobedience to , and Vilifying of the Light , they would come to witness a turning from the Darkness to the Light , and continuing therein , as that Holy Way , in which the Ransomed of the Lord alwayes did , do , and shall walk through all Generations , they would know the Injoyment of Eternal Peace : Yea , such is the Excellency of Christ , the true Light , that as He was First , so shall He be the Last , when all Outward Performances , Writings , Worships , yea , the whole World shall be at an End ; the Use and Excellency of the Light will remain forever ; as saith John the Divine , And they shall see his Face , and his Name shall be written in their Fore-Heads , and there shall be no Night there , and they need no Candle , neither Light of the Sun , for the LORD GOD GIVETH THEM LIGHT , and they shall Reign forever and ever , Amen . CHAP. VIII . An Objection against the Light 's Antecedent Being to Christ's Coming . It is prov'd to have been known to be a Saving Light from Adam's day , through the Holy Patriarchs and Prophets time down to Christ's , from the Scriptures of Truth . HAving then plainly prov'd from Scripture ( 1. ) That the Light is Saving , since the time of Christ ; beginning with its first Appearance , as Manifesting Sin. ( 2. ) Condemning of It. ( 3. ) Redeeming from It , as obeyed . And that the same Principle which is called Light , is the Seed , Grace , Truth , Word , Spirit , Power , Unction , Water , Way , Life , Flesh and Blood ; and therefore not a Distinct Being from that , which T. Hicks himself , if he will own plain Scripture , must confess doth Save ; I call it the LIGHT OF SALVATION , OR THAT LEADS TO SALVATION . But there remain yet several Objections to be Answered , which done , we shall immediately proceed to give Judgment upon the Question , Who , or What this Light is , with respect to all our Adversaries Cavils . Obj. Though you have thus far evinc'd the Universality of a Saving Light from the Scriptures , since Christ's Life , Death , Resurrection and Ascension ; yet that which is the Pinch of the Controversie will be this , Where was this before Light ? Had any this Saving Light ( they had a Light ) before it came in that Eminent Manner above One Thousand Six Hundred Years since ; It is generally believ'd , that Christ's then coming benefitted the World with it , in case the World universally hath such a Saving Light ? To which I shall give my Answer , both from Scripture , History and Reason . The first Scripture I shall quote , is in the first of Genesis ; So God created Man in his own Image , in the Image of God created he him . From whence I draw this Argument , That if Man was made in God's Image , then because , God is Light , Adam must necessarily have had of the Divine Light in him , and have been the Image of that Light , so long as he walkt and remain'd in It : Since no man walks in the Light , but he becomes the Child of Light. And as the Apostle Paul expresseth it , of such as were converted to that Light they had once erred from ; Ye were Darkness , but now are ye Light in the Lord ; That is , Through Obedience to the Light of the Lord. For any man then to say , Adam had not Light , were to suppose his Innocent State to be that of Darkness , and instead of , and being God's Image , who is , and ever was , and alwayes will be Light , he would have been wholy ignorant of him , in whose Image he is said to have been created . II. This Moses directed the Children of Israel to , when he in God's stead , recommended and earnestly pressed the keeping of the Commandment , and Word in the Heart ; as we read in Deuteronomy . For this Commandment which I Command thee this day , is not hidden from thee , neither is it far off : It is not in Heaven , that thou shouldst say , Who shall go up for us to Heaven , and bring it unto us , that we may hear it and do it ? Neither is It beyond the Sea , that thou shouldst say , Who shall go over the Sea for us , and bring it unto us , that we may hear it and do it ? But the Word is very nigh unto thee , in thy Mouth , and in thy Heart , that thou mayst do it . See , I have set before thee this day , Life and Good , and Death and Evil. From whence I cannot but observe these Three Things , 1. That the Commandment , and the Word , are so called by way of Excellency and Preheminence , to all written Commandments or Words . 2. That this Commandment or Word is Nigh , even in the Heart of Man it self : none need plead Distance or Ignorance . 3. That the Setting Life and Good , Death and Evil was and could only be in the Light within , since without the Light , how could they have Seen it Set before them : And that it was in their Hearts , the Lord so set those States before them , the Verse immediately follows that wherein the Word is by Moses argumentatively prov'd , as well as affirm'd to be in the Heart of Man. Now I hope , it shall not be injuriously done of me ; and I know who will bear me out , if I say , This Commandment is that which David spoke of , when he said , The Commandment of the Lord is pure Inlightning the Eyes ; and this Holy Word , the same with that Word , which he said , was a Lamp unto his Feet , and a Light unto his Path , and not an other Word , then what Paul call'd the Word of Faith , which he preach't , by which the Just live ; consequently a Saving Commandment , Word or Light it was , and is to such as Believe and Obey it . III. The next Scripture I will urge shall be this : For thou art my Lamp O Lord , for the Lord will Lighten my Darkness . Now if God was the Light and Lamp of that Day , to such as regarded the Light , cerainly then they had a Light and such an one as was Saving too ; unless we should Blasphemously Deny , God to be either a Light , or a Saving One , who is most certainly both . IV. Wicked Men were not without Light to Condemn them , as Good Men ever had Light to Preserve them : They are of those that Rebel against the Light , they know not the Wayes thereof , nor abide in the Paths thereof , said Job . In which Passage it is very obvious , that Wicked Men have Light , otherwise it would have been utterly Impossible for them , to have Rebell'd against it ; Nay , against THE LIGHT , implying , that it is the same Light in Nature , with that , which Righteous Men are guided by , answerable to another Emphatical Passage in the same Book of Job , Is there any Number of his Army , and UPON WHOM DOTH NOT HIS LIGHT ARISE ? Certainly , this Universality strongly pleads on the behalf of our Belief of the Light ; And if our Adversary would but venture to let it come close to his Conscience , I cannot be so Uncharitable as to think he should not make some Acknowledgment to its Universality , antecedent to the Coming of Christ. I omit to say much of its Efficaciousness at that time ( though one would think that Light alwayes gives to Discern a Good Way from a Bad one ) referring it to another place : Only I shall observe , how that Job expresly tells us , and that when he was in his deep Troubles of Spirit : O that I were as in Months past , in the Dayes when God preserved me , when his Candle shined upon my Head , and when by his Light I walked through Darkness ; where it is most apparent , that Job attributes his Salvation from the Darkness ( which stands both for Sin and Affliction ) unto the Light , wherewith God had Inlightned him . And certainly , It had been utterly Impossible for those weighty things , that are deliver'd in that Book of Job , as well from others , as from Job , to have been known , had not they been Inlightned , and received very great Discoveries from that Light and Candle of the Lord in their Hearts ; For in all the whole Book I find not one Verse expresly cited out of any other Writings , but what purely proceeded from Immediate Impulse , and Inspiration of the Almighty , which sayes the same Book , gives Men Understanding . V. To this Doctrine David was no Stranger , who so very often commemorates the Light , and the Divine Excellencies of it ; some few places I shall mention of those many that I might offer . The Lord is my Light and my Salvation , whom shall I fear ? the Lord is the Strength of my Life , of whom shall I be afraid ? This weighty Passage of the Prophet is a lively Testimony to the True Light , wherein David confessed what John call'd his Evangelical Message , viz. That God is Light. Next , that not only God is Light , but which doubtless was most of all to his Comfort , HIS LIGHT ; The Lord is MY Light , and MY Salvation : As much as if he had said , Because the Lord is become my Light , I have known him to be my Salvation , or him by whom my Salvation hath been wrought . In short thus , That God is My Salvation , as he is My Light ; or , as I have Obey'd the Lord My Light , I have witnessed Salvation . O! that such Professors of Religion , in whom there is any Moderation , would but be pleas'd to weigh , What was David ' s Light ; What his Salvation ; and Who must needs have been his Rule at that time of the World , of which he further speaks : God is the Lord , who hath shewed us Light. Thy Word is a Lamp unto my Feet , and a Light unto my Pathes . I have not departed from thy Judgments , for thou hast taught me . This made him far Wiser then his Teachers in the hidden Life and Mystery of things , whereby David had long seen beyond all Types and Shaddows of the good Things to come , to the very Substance it self , from whence came his excellent Prophecies : agreeing with that passage , The Path of the Just is as the shining Light , that shines more and more unto the perfect Day , said the wise Man. This strongly implies , that David , and not he alone , but the Just of all Ages , were attended with the Discoveries and Leadings of a Divine Light ; which as obey'd , did make Just , and alwayes lead in the Way of Salvation : unless the Just Way was not the Saving Way ; and if it was , certainly it is still : for it is the Lord himself , whom in Samuel's History , he is recorded also to have called a Lamp , as he here doth the Word , which Moses said , was nigh in the Heart , that Men should obey it and do it . This was the Word of Reconciliation in every Generation , whose Holy Water washed their Consciences from Sin , who heard , andobey'd it . Again , that this Light was not confin'd to David , or such Good Men , take these two Passages . * Thou givest thy Mouth to Evil , and thy Tongue frameth Deceit ; Thou sittest and speakest against thy Brother , thou Slanderest thine own Mothers Son : These things hast thou done , and I kept Silence , thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thy self , but I WILL REPROVE THEE , AND SET THEM IN ORDER BEFORE THINE EYES ( saith the Lord ) Again , His Lightnings inlightned the World , the Earth saw , and trembled . In which two places it will appear upon impartial Consideration , that God hath inlightned the World , and that as Light ( Difcovering the Works and Workers of Darkness ) he doth reprove the Inhabitants of the World , set their Sins in order before them , and cause such Guilty ones to Tremble at his so appearing , which is expresly confirmed in that notable passage of the Prophet , For Lo ! He that treadeth the Mountains , and cleareth the Wind , that makes the Morning Darkness , and treadeth upon the High Places of the Earth , and DECLARES UNTO MAN , WHAT HIS THOUGHTS ARE , THE LORD , THE GOD OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME . This the Psalmist was well acquainted with himself , when he uttered these Words , Whither shall I go from thy Spirit , or whither shall I flee from thy Presence ? which plainly shows to us , that the Spirit of the Lord , and his Presence was every-where , and that as Light , discovering Darkness with respect to Mankind : For the Question was not , whether God by his Spirit was not every-where , for that our Adversaries grant , or he could not be God ? But whether it was possible for David to withdraw himself into any place , where his Mind could not be sensible of the Eternal Spirit and Immediate Presence of God ( who is Light it self ) either as a Reprover , Exhorter , or Informer ; as the foregoing Words intimate ? O Lord thou hast searched me , and known me , — Thou understandest my Thoughts afar off — Thou art acquainted with all my Wayes . Which however God might know them , it stands firm , that David could never have known God so as to see and behold them , but from that Light and Spirit of which he sayes in the 7th vers . following ( which I have already cited ) Whither shall I go from thy Spirit ? In short , it must needs be evident , to all unprejudic'd Readers , that David had this Light within , or Spirit of God present with him , as a Reprover , Informer , or Comforter , since it was impossible for him to be any-where without it . Which may prove to us , that however he lived above a thousand years before the Apostle Paul , he very well knew the meaning of that Doctrine he preach'd to the Athenians , God is not far away , or at a Distance from every one of you . Which truly known and experimentally witnessed , not only as a Reprover , but by an humble and holy reception of him into the Heart , as King and Lord , is the Glory of the Evangelical Dispensation , where God dwells in his People as an Holy Temple , and Tabernacles with them . This is the blessed Emmanuel-state God with , and God in Men. I might here to sub-joyn the Account we have of the great Illumination of Daniel , and the Gentiles clear Acknowledgment of the same , which they could never have done , with that Seriousness and Conviction , but from some glimps of the same Divine Light ; but that I shall pass over with several Passages of other of the lesser Prophets ; and conclude this Scripture Proof of the Gift of the Light and Spirit , antecedent to Christ's coming in the Flesh ; and from Stephen's Testimony , Howbeit the Most High dwelleth not in Temples made with hands , as saith the Prophet : Heaven is my Throne , and Earth is my Footstool , what House will you build me , saith the Lord ? or what is the Place of my Rest ? Hath not my hands made all these things ; Ye Stiff-necked and Uncircumcised in Hearts and Ears , ye do always resist the Holy Ghost , as your Fathers did so do ye . And lest it should be objected , that it was only in Stephen then , and the holy Prophets of Old , that both they and their Fore-Fathers resisted the Holy Spirit , Remember Reader , that weighty Passage in Nehemiah , Thou gavest also thy Good Spirit to Instruct them , and withheldst not thy Manna from their Mouth ; by which it is most evident , that the Light of God's Spirit , or the Spirit of God , was given as well to the Rebellious as Obedient ; that it might as well condemn for Sin , as lead into all Righteousness ; And since we are to suppose God's Spirit , and the Light thereof , to be sufficient to Salvation , ( for God's Gifts are perfect in themselves , and are given to accomplish their Ends perfectly ) from that Sin and Iniquity which the contrary Spirit draws into , we may without any offence , I hope , conclude , that during those many Ages before the Coming of Christ in the Flesh he did Illuminate Mankind with a sufficient measure of his Divine Light and Spirit . CHAP. IX . Another Objection , that though the Jews had it , it will not follow that the Gentiles were so Illuminated . It is Answerd by several Scriptures . In this Chapter quoted to prove , that they were not exempted ; But had a measure of Light , some Divine Seed sown in their Hearts , some Talent given , and that it was Sufficient . T. Hicks's Challenge to give an Instance of one that by the Light within was Reproved for not believing that Jesus was the Christ , is Answer'd . Such as believed in the Light , and walkt up to it , did receive Christ when he came . The high Pretenders were they who to Scriptures Opposed , and Crucified him . The Light from Scripture concluded Universal and Saving . Obj. BUt here I expect this Objection , having run our Adversaries unavoidably to it : Very well , Taking it for granted that what you have said in reference to a Saving Light or Spirit , universally bestow'd upon the Jews , THAT WERE A DISTINCT PEOPLE from the rest of the World , under very many peculiar Rights ; yet cannot we think it good Arguing , to infer the Gifts of God's Light and Spirit to the Gentiles , that make far the greatest part thereof ; from these Scriptures , that only seem to prove it the Priviledg of the Jews . To which I Answer , That I conceive I have urg'd those Scriptures already , that afford a plain Conviction , and Evincement of the Truth of that general Inference ; but because I am desirous from my very Soul , in perfect Love to theirs , that shall read this Discourse , of removing what Objection I am able to fore-see it may meet with , after it shall have past my hand , I will endeavour to make appear , first from SCRIPTURE , and next from the Best Account we have of the DOCTRINES and LIVES of HEATHENS , and lastly from REASON ; That God's Love in the Illumination of his Spirit or Gift of a Measure of his Divine and Saving Light was Universal ; or that Mankind was ( and consequently is ) antecedently to Christ's Coming in the Flesh , enlightned with such a Measure of Light , as was Saving in it self : And to all such , as received the Light , and obeyed it , in the Love of it . In order to this , I shall briefly insist on a few Scriptures , some of which have been already quoted , though not so directly to this Matter . I. My Spirit shall not alwayes strive with Man. Here observe , That no one Nation was interested more then another , but Man stands for the whole Adam , or Mankind ; from whence I do very truly Conclude , that Mankind was not destitute of the Spirit , or Light of the Almighty , though it might be known in no higher Degree , then that of a Convincer and Reprover of Sin : yet it follows not , But if man had yielded to the Striving of it , doubtless he had been thereby redeemed from that Spirit of Iniquity , that was the ground of his grievous Resistance , which I call Salvation from sin . II. They are of those that Rebel against the Light , they know not the Wayes thereof , nor abide in the Path thereof . Here is no mention made of the Jews , in this Chapter , nor in many foregoing or following it , if at all in the whole Book . For Job is here giving the Character of wicked Men in general , that is , not with respect to any . * particular Nation ; so that we may well infer , neither did he understand , the Light whereof he spoke , should be limited ( as to its Illumination ) or any particular People . In short , I argue thus ; If such as pluck the Fatherless from the Breast , and take a Pledge of the Poor , as ( the Context relates ) are those that Rebel against the Light , and walk not in its Way ; then because that Vice was never limited to the Jews , but other Nations work'd that Wickedness as well as they , it will plainly follow , that the Light , against which such Offenders Rebell'd , also was not limited to the Jews , but extended to the Gentiles also ; unless it should be said , That what was Rebellion and Wickedness in the Jews , was not so in the Gentiles . But because , Sin was , and is Sin , all the World over ; Light was , and is Light , all the World over , whether Men bring their Deeds to it or not . III. But again let us hear the same Book speak , Is there any Number of his Armies ? and upon whom doth not his Light Arise ? This Question carries in it a strong Affirmative of the Universality of God's Light , as much as to say , Who is there among all the Sons and Daughters of Men , that can say , I am not Enlightned by Him ? If then none can , it must needs follow , That all are Enlightned , as well Gentiles as Jews . IV. Thus much these two Notable Parables teach us of the Sower , and the Lord that gave his Servants Talents . They who believe Scripture , must acknowledge them to represent God's Dealings with Mankind , in reference to Gift , Duty and Reward . Observe the first Parable . The same Day went Jesus out of the House , and sate by the Sea side ; And great Multitudes were gathered together unto him , so that he went into a Ship , and sate , and the whole Multitude stood on the Shore . And he spoke many things unto them in Parables , saying , Behold , A SOWER WENT FORTH TO SOW , and when he sowed , some Seeds fell by the Way side , and the Fowls came , and devour'd them up ; Some fell upon Stony places , where they had not much Earth , and forthwith they sprung up , because they had no Deepness on Earth , and when the Sun was up , they were scorched , and because they had not Root , they wither'd away ; and some fell among Thorns , and the Thorns sprung up and choack'd them ; But other fell in Good Ground , and brought forth Fruit ; some an Hundred-fold , some Sixty-fold , some Thirty-fold . Who has Ears to hear , let him hear . It is granted by all that I know of , that the Seeds-Man is God ; the Scripture saith , the Seed is the Word of the Kingdom , which must needs be the Spiritual Word nigh in the Heart , suitable to the Heavenly Kingdom Christ said , was within , other-wise call'd Light , that is said to be sown for the Righteous ; or the Grace , that appeares unto all-Men , and brings Salvation to them that are taught by it : And lastly , common Sense tells us , that the several Grounds comprehend Mankind ; for they must either include the Bad with the Good , or the Good only must be benefited : But the very Scripture expresly distinguisheth betwixt the Good and Bad Ground , yet affirms the one to have been sown with the Seed as well as the other ; Therefore Gods Gift is Universal , however Men by Wicked Works may have render'd their Hearts Stony , Thorny , or otherwise defective and uncapable of bringing forth Fruit. The other Parable is also very weighty , and much to our purpose : For the Kingdom of Heaven is as a Man travelling into a far Country , who called his own Servants , and delivered unto them his Goods ; and unto one he gave Five Talents , to another Two , and to another One , to every Man according to his several ability , and straight-way took his Journey . Then he that had received Five Talents , went and traded with the same , and made them other Five Talents ; and likewise he , that had received Two , he also gained other Two ; But he that had received One , went and digged in the Earth , and hid his Lord's Money . After a long time , the Lord of those Servants cometh and Reckoneth with them : And so he that had received Five Talents came and brought other Five Talents , saying , Lord , Thou deliveredst unto me Five Talents , Behold , I have gained besides them Five Talents more . His Lord said unto him ; Well done thou Good and Faithful Servant , thou hast been faithful over a few things , I will make thee Ruler over many things , Enter thou into the Joy of thy Lord. He also that received Two Talents , came and said , Lord , Thou deliveredst unto me Two Talents , Behold , I have gain'd Two other Talents besides them , His Lord said unto him ; Well done Good and Faithful Servant , thou hast been faithful over a few things , I will make thee Ruler over many things , Enter thou into the Joy of thy Lord. Then he which had received One Talent , came and said , Lord , I knew thee , that thou art an hard Man , Reaping where thou hast not sown , and Gathering where thou hast not strawed ; and I was afraid , and went and hid thy Talent in the Earth : Lo , there thou hast that which is thine . His Lord answer'd , and said unto him , Thou Wicked and Slothful Servant , thou knewest that I Reap where I sowed not , and Gather where I have not strawed , Thou oughtest therefore to have put my Money to the Exchangers , and then at my Coming I should have received mine Own with Usury : Take therefore the Talent from him , and give it unto him which has Ten Talents ; For unto every one that hath shall be given , and he shall have Abundance , but from him that has not shall be taken away even that which he hath : And cast ye the Unprofitable Servant into utter Darkness , there shall be Weeping , and Gnashing of Teeth , when the Son of Man shall come in his Glory , and all the Holy Angels with Him , then shall He sit upon the Throne of his Glory , and before Him shall be gather'd all Nations , and He shall separate them one from another , as a Shepherd divideth his Sheep from the Goats , and He shall set the Sheep on his Right Hand , but the Goats on the Left. Serious Reader , I have the rather repeated the Scripture at large , because of that great Strength it carries , methinks , to the Conviction , at least Confusion of that Narrow Spirit , which confines the infinite Goodness of God , and renders him , whilst he is an Universal Creator , but a particular Benefactor , shutting up his Gifts within the straight compass of a FEW ; representing him thereby , as partial , as some Parents , who they know not for what , beside their own unequal Wills , do frequently bestow their Favour ( indeed the whole of their Affection ) upon an Elected Dareling , to the manifest , though causeless Neglect of the rest . But to speak the Truth of the matter , the Over-fondness some bear to their own Opinions , joyn'd with the Envy raised towards those who conform not to them , has so emptied them of all natural Affection , that looking upon God in that condition they dare to think him as unnatural as themselves ; For my part , I have not a great while believ'd , but that it rather rise from an Unwillingness in some , that Dissenters from them should be saved ( thereby endeavouring a Compliance upon Necessity ) then that God had not been propitious unto all his Creatures . For who sees not , who can or will see , that God is this Soveraign Lord , that he made Mankind to be his Servants , that these Three are representative of the whole , and to the End they might not be Unprofitable Ones , that he gave them Talents to improve against his Return , that is , against the Day of Recompence ; for which they are accountable , that who improve their Talents may be rewarded , and they who make no improvement of their Talents , may be punisht with Eternal Separation from the Presence of God , and all his Holy Angels . I will conclude with these Five Observations : 1. That God ( though it be his Soveraign Prerogative , what he will give ) has given a Talent out of his Celestial Treasury unto every Man and Woman . 2. That this Talent is in it self Sufficient ; but as the best Corn , so this Talent , put up into a Napkin , must needs be Unprofitable ; yet , that the Fault is in the Party Neglecting or Hiding of it , not in it self . 3. That those who improve not their Talent , are most apt to charge God with Reaping where he Sows not , as do those Professors we have to do with ; who make God to require an Account of all , and yet deny , in order to rendring up this Account with Joy , that he has given all a Talent Sufficient thereunto . 4. That the Eternal Estate of Men and Women , as Sheep and Goats , purely depends upon their Improving , or not Improving of that Heavenly Talent wherewith God has indu'd them . Lastly , Neither is there any Shelter for these Parsimonious Men , or their Hide-bound Faith , under the Inequality of the Number of the Talents ; for it is not , how many Talents are given , but what Improvement is made of what is given : Wherefore greater is his Reward , who makes one Talent Three , then his who of Ten , advances but to Fifteen ; since the one makes but Half , whilst the other makes Treble Improvement . Blessed therefore are you all , and will you assuredly be in the Day of the Lord's Recompence , who disregarding the Vanities , Pleasures , Cares and Fleshly Religions of the World , diligently mind your own Talent , and are in the Pure Wisdom and Holy Counsel of the Lord , making your daily Improvement of the same , laying up Treasure in the High and Heavenly Place , that is Durable and Everlasting . V. This reasonable Truth is yet further manifest , from the weighty Words of our Lord Jesus Christ ; For every one that doth Evil hateth the Light , neither comes to the Light , lest his Deeds should be reproved : To which I would add that of the Apostle , Whatsoever is reproved is made manifest by the Light. Certainly then , unless Men will be so Unjust to God , as to think ( contrary to Scripture and Reason ) He should let Millions of Men , and Scores of Generations live in Sin , without a Light to shew it them , or a Law to limit them ; it must be yielded , that they had Light and Law in their Hearts and Consciences , by which they were Convicted of Sin ; and such , as obey'd it , led to work Righteousness , since their Refusing to bring their Deeds to the Light , was not an Act of Ignorance , but Design ; because they knew their Deeds would be Condemn'd , and they for them ; which loudly asserts , that they both had a Light , and knew they had it , though they Rebell'd against it . And if I should grant , that whatever was reproveable , was not made manifest unto them ; yet this will no wayes hinder the Capacity of the Light to do it . 'T is evident , That some things which the Gentiles did , were reprov'd , therefore they had the Light : And if they had it not in all the Extent of its Revelation , the Light was no more to be blamed , then that Guide , whose Passengers therefore could not arrive at their Journey 's End , because they never would begin , at least proceed . Had the Heathens been Faithful to what they had of God in themselves , and not been blinded by the Vain Idolatries and Superstitious Traditions of their Fathers , they had more fully known and learn'd the Mind and Will of their Creator ; which some of those Gentiles notwithstanding did , as will yet further appear . VI. Thus the Apostle Paul teaches us to believe , in that remarkable Passage of his in the first Chapter to the Romans : For I am not Asham'd of the Gospel of Christ : For it is the , Power of God unto Salvation , to every one that believeth , to the Jew first , and also to the Greek . For therein is the Righteousness of God reveal'd from Heaven against all Ungodliness and Unrighteousness of Men , who hold the Truth in Unrighteousness . Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them , for God hath shewed it unto them . For the Invisible Things of Him from the Creation of the World are clearly seen , being understood by the Things that are made , even his Eternal Power and God-head , so that they are without Excuse ; because that when they knew God , they Glorified him not as God , neither were Thankful ; but became Vain in their Imaginations , and their Foolish Hearts were Darken'd . And even as they did not like to Retain God in their Knowledge , God gave them over to a Reprobate Mind , to do those things which are not Convenient . These Notable Lines of that Great Apostle , give an apparent Overthrow to all Objections against , either the Universality or Sufficiency of the Light within ; which will be further manifest , if the Reader be but pleas'd to observe these few Particulars . ( 1. ) That in the Gospel of Christ is the Righteousness of God revealed , and that from Faith to Faith. ( 2. ) That this Faith the Just have ever lived by , for he quotes a Time past , as it is written , which Writing was about 700. Years before he wrot that Epistle . ( 3. ) That many had degenerated from the Righteousness of God , to wit , the Gentiles , into Ungodliness , against which the Wrath of God was revealed from Heaven . ( 4. ) That they however , once knew the Truth . ( 5. ) That they came to the Knowledge of this Truth from the Manifestation of God ( who is Light ) within ; since what might be known of God was manifested in them , because God had shewed it unto them . ( 6. ) That the Cause of their after Darkness , was their Rebelling against that Manifestation or Light , not Glorifying the God that shewed it to them , when they both saw it , and knew him so to do . Consequently , that God had given them Light Sufficient , both to know and obey him . And since they liked not to retain God in their Knowledge , the Deficiency was theirs , and not the Light 's . ( 7. ) If therefore their foolish Hearts were darkned , that is , by Disobedience , it follows , that therefore that Darkness came by Sin into their Hearts , they had Light in their Hearts , or a Light within . 8 ) Lastly , If the Wrath was therefore revealed , because the hold the Truth in Unrighteousness , and when they knew God by that Manifestation of Light within , they glorified him not as God , but became vain in their Imaginations , and their foolish Hearts darkned ; Then certainly , had they kept to that Principle , call'd the Truth , and the Manifestation of God within , and preserv'd their Faith in God , as he had reveal'd himself to them ; So glorifying him as God , and delighting to retain him in their knowledge ; Not Wrath , but Mercy ●…nd Peace had been revealed from Heaven , as saith the same Apostle in his following Chapter , to them , who by patient continuance in well doing , seek for Glory and Honour and Immortality , ETERNAL LIFE . In short ; This we may safely conclude , that the Righteousness 〈◊〉 ( in the Gospel of Christ , of which Paul was not ashamed ) from Faith to Faith , by which Faith , he 〈◊〉 the Just Ancients lived , or were accepted , is One in N●…ture , though not in Degree with that TRUTH the Gentiles Apstatized from , and therefore lived without Faith , Righteousness or God in the World ; for which the Wrath was reveal●…d ; which had they lived up unto , glorifying God , as God , ●…ccording to the Manifestation of himself in their Hearts and Consciences , they would have had , not the Revelation of Wrath , but of the Righteousness of Faith , by which the Just in all Ages have liv'd ●…cceptably with God : For without Faith can no Man please God , in any Age ; as without Holiness ( that flows from true Faith ) to Man shall ever see the Lord. VII . And Lastly , I do earnestly intreat the Unprejudic'd Reader , to observe these two notable Passages , which with my Consideration of them , shall conclude the Scripture-Proofs I have urg'd for the Universality of the Light , and Spirit of God , antecedent to Christ's Appearance in the Flesh. Then Peter opened his Mouth , and said , Of a Truth , I perceive that God is no Respecter of Persons , but in every Nation , He that feareth him , and worketh Righteousness is accepted with him . For not the Hearers of the Law are Just before God , but the Doers of the Law shall be justified : For when the Gentiles which have not the Law , do by Nature the things contained in the Law , these having not the Law , are a Law unto themselves , which shew the Works of the Law written in their Hearts , their Consciences also bearing Witness , and their Thoughts the mean while Accusing or Excusing one another , in the Day when God shall judge the Secrets of Men by Jesus Ch●…ist , according to my Gospel . These Scriptures are a severe Check to our Adversaries undervaluing Apprehension of the blessed Light of God , and that will appear in several particulars . 1. God is no Respecter of Persons in any Nation ; from whence I honestly conclude , that all Persons and Nations were inlightned , as well Gentiles as Jews . 2. That here are Men ( not of the Circumcision made with hands ) who fear God , work Righteousness , and are Doers of the Law , not from any outward Obligation ( ●…or they had none ) but the inward Work of the Law writ upon 〈◊〉 Hearts ; which is a Demonstration , that they had not only 〈◊〉 Light as a Reprover , but as a Teacher and Leader , whereby th●…y came to fear God , and work Righteousness , which is else-where said to be the Sum of the Matter , and whole Duty of Man : 〈◊〉 then no 〈◊〉 that fears God , works Righteousness , and keeps the 〈◊〉 Law of God , as the Scriptures testifie some Gentiles to h●…ve done , can be said to do so , and yet worship false Gods , or not ri●…htly Worship the true one , be void of the true Light , the most part of T. Hicks his 9th page , where he objects the 〈◊〉 Ignorance of the true God , against the Sufficiency of the Light within , and a Challenge to us to produce one Instance amon●… the many Thousands of Mankind that from the Light within , hath been reproved for not believing Jesus to be Christ , 〈◊〉 as the smoak ; For though perhaps he thinks , he may have done a great deal , in making that bold Demand of 〈◊〉 , yet I shall briefly tell him , that such as lived up most sincerely to the Light in their own Consciences , acknowledged most readily , that glorious Appearance of Light in ●…hat Body then in the World. They were the great Pretenders to Scriptures , that would not come to Christ , the Traditional , Literal and Ordinance-Men that Rejected and Crucified him ; and that had not both , Cornelius and the Centurion , with many others , been upright Livers to the Light within , neither 〈◊〉 Peter been so received by the one , nor Christ so follow'd by the other . But that measure of the Divine Light , which they had thitherto obey'd , as the more sure Word of Prophecy , lead them naturally , unto the Rising of the Day-Star , which , though a more glorious manifestation , yet not of another Light , Life , or Spirit , then had ever been ; for there are not two Lights , Lifes , Natures or Spirits in God , he is ONE for ever in himself , and his Light one in kind , how ever variously he may have declar'd himself or manifested it at sundry times of the World ; His Truth is one , his Way is one , and his Rest one forever . But last of all , that which greatly joyes , is this , that the Narrowness of some Mens Spirits in this World , will not be found able to exclude vertuous Gentiles from their Reward in the other : But maugre all the Heat , Petulancy , Conceitedness , and Fleshly Boasting of Carnal Christians ; such as fear God , and Work Righteousness , and are Doers of the Law , we are assured , shall be accepted with , and justified of God , in the Day that he will judge the Secrets of all men by Jesus Christ , according to Paul ' s Gospel ; and if any man bring another , let It be accurst ; Amen . I have here on purpose overlookt many very pregnant Instances both in the Old and New Testament ( so call'd ) for Brevities sake , in which the Righteousness of the Gentiles hath in several Cases more evidently appeared , then that of some of the Jews , and which undeniably testifies to the Sufficiency of that Light , they had , both to manifest that which was Good , from that which was Evil , and give an Ability to such as truly minded its Illumination , whereby they were enabled to do the one , and to reject the other . Such were Abimelech , Cyrus , Darius , the Ruler that came to Christ , and many others , which I shall omit to mention more particularly ; the chief Bent of my Mind being , to demonstrate the Truth of my Assertion , from their own Writings . CHAP. X. That the Gentiles Believed in One God. That He inlightned All Men with a Saving Light. That Men ought to live Piously . That the Soul is Immortal . That there is an Eternal Recompence . The Whole call'd Gentile-Divinity . The First Point prov'd by Sixteen Testimonies . HAving prov'd briefly , but truly from the Scriptures , that the Gentiles in general , were Illuminated with a Divine Light ; I shall now make it my Business , to evidence the Truth thereof by most undeniable , particular Instances , out of their own Writings . And because I am willing , my Defence of both , the Light within , and Those of them , who obey'd it , should turn to the clearest and best Account , I will endeavour to resolve the Whole into as plain a Method , as the Matter , and their Way of delivering it will allow me . First then , from their own Authorities , I am taught to affirm , that the Gentiles Believed in One , Holy , Infinite and Eternal God. Secondly , That they did therefore so believe , because God had imprinted the Knowledge of himself in their Hearts ; or in our Language , that he had Illuminated all Mankind with a Divine Light which , as conversed with , and obey'd , would lead to Eternal Happiness . Thirdly , That they held , and practised high Sanctity of Life . Fourthly , That they affirmed an Immortality of Souls , and Eternal Rewards of Felicity , or Misery , according to Man's Obedience to , or Rebellion against the Eternal God his Creator : which Excellent Principles , true and clear , being the Result of their Discourse , on those Subjects , do worthily deserve , in my esteem , the Style of DIVINITY , which shall be the Denomination , I hope , I may without Offence bestow upon them in this Discourse . That the Gentiles did acknowledge and believe , There was but One Supream God , that made all things , who is Infinite , Almighty , Omni-present , Holy and Good forever : I shall produce some of those many Authorities that aver the same ; and accommodate it to such Scripture , as the Truth of them , as well as Practice of very Ancient Fathers will bear me out in . I. ORPHEUS , as Old , as more then One Thousand Two Hundred Years before Christ , thus expresseth his Belief of God : His Hand reaches to the End of the Sea , his Right-hand is everywhere , and the Earth is under his Feet . He is only One , begot of himself , and of Him alone are all things begot ; and God is the First and the Last . Hereby not only telling us , there was a God , but attributing that Almighty Power and Omni-presence , which show , he meant no Statuary Deity , but the God that made the Heavens and the Earth . II. HESIOD , Of all , which do not Dye , thou art King and Lord ; none can Contend with Thee concerning Thy Power . This Emphatically proves God to have been but One , and Omni-potent in their Belief . III. THALES , a very Ancient Greek Phylosopher , tells us ; That there is but One God , that he is Glorious forever and ever : And he openly confesseth , That he is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , HE WHO KNOWS HEARTS . Thales being demanded what God was , That ( saith he ) which has NEITHER BEGINNING NOR END . Another asking , If a Man might do Ill , and conceal it from God ? How , ( saith he ) WHEN A MAN THAT THINKS IT , CANNOT . Men ought to believe , saith * Cicero , in his Name , that God sees all things . IV. SIBYLLA , There is One God , who alone is Infinite and without Beginning . — Again , Who can see with Fleshly Eyes the Heavenly , True and Immortal God , whose Seat is in the Highest of Heaven ? This Sibyll is Aged above Two Thousand Years . The Question implies her Faith ; that God was a Spirit , as Christ himself also testifies . V. PYTHAGORAS , a Modest , but Diligent and Retired Man , in his Search after Heavenly things , saith , That it is Man's Duty to believe of the Divinity , that it is , and that it is in such a manner , as to Mankind , that it overlooks them , and neglects them not ; for we have need of such a Government , as we ought not in any thing to Contradict ; such is that , which proceeds from the Divinity : For the Divinity is such , that to it doth of Right belong the Dominion of all . Again , God resembleth LIGHT and TRUTH . In another place , God himself inhabits the Lowest , and Highest , and the Middlemost ; there is no Being nor Place without God. God is One ; HE IS NOT ( as some conceive ) OUT OF THE WORLD , but entire within himself , as in a Compleat Circle , surveying all Generations . HE IS THE SALT OF ALL AGES , the Agent of his own Powers , and Works ; the Principle of all things ; One Heavenly Luminary or Light , and Father of all things ; Only Wise , Invisible , yet Intelligible . Which very Pathetical Account of the Divine Being , so correspondent with Scripture ( yet he a Stranger to it ) I mean the Words only ; for the Matter in this Point , he weightily hits , deserves very Serious Consideration and Acknowledgment , from all , especially those who would not Narrow God's Mercies to their own Time or Party . VI. To the same purpose speaks HERACLITUS , that sensibly Afflicted Philosopher , for the World's Impieties and Idolatrics , whose very Sorrowful , yet sound & smart Expressions , show they came from a Mind deeply touch'd : In one of his Epistles to Hermodorus , his Friend , he thus seemeth after a while to address himself to Eutycles , and the rest of his Enemies , that Impeacht him for being an Enemy to their Stony Gods : Thus I shall be condemned of Impiety by the Impious . What thinkest thou ? Shall I seem Impious to them for Dissenting from their Gods ? If Blind Men were to Judge of Sight , they would say that Blindness were Sight : But O ye Ignorant Men , teach us first , what God is , that when ye declare us to be Impious , you may be believed . Where is God ? shut up in Temples ? O Pious Men ! ( he speaks Ironically , or by Contraries ) WHO PLACE GOD IN THE DARK . You Ignorant People ! KNOW YOU NOT THAT GOD IS NOT MADE WITH HANDS ? This is a most Clear , and Ample Testimony against their Idols , mixt with a Religious Derision ; yet qualified by a kind of Lamentation : Surely Heraclitus believed in God , yea , and that he was Light too , and such a one as should never set ; by whom he else-where says , He had overcome the Enemies of his Soul. VII . ANAXAGORAS , esteemed Noble by Birth , but more Noble for his Knowledge and Vertue , who was Master to Socrates , taught thus concerning God ; That God is an Infinite Selfmoving Mind ; that this Divine , Infinite Mind is the Efficient Cause of all things ; every thing beingmade according to its Species , by the Divine Mind ; who , when all things were confusedly mingled together , CAME AND REDUCED THEM TO ORDER . Which doubtless is so true , that Anaxagoras had no small Share of true Light , to give this Account , of both God and the Creation : And indeed , his Memory was Celebrated by the Greeks , for having very much improved that Discovery , they had concerning God and Immortality . VIII . SOCRATES , that Good Heathen ( if without Plat. phaed. Offence , to the Professors of Christianity , I may say it ) not only confesseth to ONE God , but I am of Opinion , they will think he gives good Reason why he doth so . He first layes down , That the Mind , which they frequently call God by , is the Disposer and Cause of all things . Or in other words of his thus , God To these Notable Arguments urged for the Proof of a Divine Super-intelligent Being , and his Creation and Providence , may well agree those Pathetical Expressions of Job , the Psalmist , and several Prophets , Evangelists and Apostles ; concerning , God's Creating the World , and upholding it to this day , his laying the Foundations thereof ; his Providence over the Lillies and the Sparrows ; his bringing forth Fruits in due season ; his Lights by Day , and by Night ; that the Disciples should take no Thought what they shall Eat , and Drink , or put on ; That there is a Spirit in Man , and the Inspiration of the Almighty gives Understanding ; and lastly , Can any hide himself in secret Places , and I not see him , saith the Lord , Jer. 23. 24 — No ; If I take the Wings of the Morning and flee to the uttermost Part of the Earth , thou art there , Psal. 139. 9. — And by me Kings Raign , and Princes Decree Justice , saith God , Prov. 8. 15 — And is every-where , Josh. 2. 11 — And orders all , Wisd. 11. 20. & 12. 15 — There is but One God , and none else besides him . Eph. 4. 6 — In the beginning God Created the Heaven and Earth , Gen. 1. 1 , 2 , 3 — In him we Live , Move , and have our Being , Acts 17. 21 — Thus he Sees and Hears all , and is Every-where , Psal. 34. 9 , 10 , 11. is ONE , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , PERFECT in Him-self , giving the Being and Well-being of every Creature . And this he giveth his Reasons for : * * Xen. memor . 1. That GOD , Not CHANCE , made the World and all Creatures , is Demonstrable , from the Reasonable Disposition of their Parts , as well for Use as Defence , from their Care to preserve themselves , and continue their Species ; that he particularly regards Man , in his Body from the Excellent Upright Form thereof , from the Gift of Speech ; from Allowance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in his Soul , from the Excellency thereof above others , both for Divinations , and Praedicting Dangers ; that he regards Particulars , from his Care of the whole Species ; that he will Reward such as Please him , and Punish such as Displease him , from his Power to do it , AND FROM THE BELIEF HE HATH IMPRINTED IN A MAN , THAT HE WILL DO IT ; professed by the most Wise and Civilized Cities and Ages . THAT HE AT ONCE SEETH ALL THINGS , from the Instances of his Eye , which at once over-runs many Miles ; and of the Mind , which at once considereth things done in the most distant Places . * * Id. eod . That God knoweth all things , whether they be SAID , DONE , or SECRETLY DESIRED . * * Id. 4. That God takes Care of all Creatures is demonstrable from the Benefits he gives them , of Light , Water and Fire , Seasonable Production of Fruits of the Earth ; That he hath particular Care of Man , from the Nourishment of all Plants and Creatures for Man's Service , from their Subjection to Man , though they Exceeded him never so much in Strength ; from the Variety of Man's Sense , accommodated to the Variety of Objects , for Necessity , Use and Pleasure ; from Reason , whereby he discoursed , through Reminiscence , from sensible Objects from Speech , whereby he communicates all that he knows , gives Laws and governs States . That God , notwithstanding he is Invisible , hath a Being from the Instances of his Ministers invisible also , as Thunder and Wind ; AND FROM THE SOUL OF MAN , WHICH HATH SOMETHING WITH , OR PARTAKES OF THE DIVINE NATURE , in Governing those that cannot see it . Finally , THAT HE IS SUCH , AND SO GREAT , AS THAT HE AT ONCE SEES ALL , HEARS ALL , IS EVERY-WHERE , AND ORDERS ALL. So that here is both Socrates his Faith in God , and his Reasons for it ; drawn from the outward Creation , and the inward Divine Sence , that from the Divine Instinct , or Nature , he receiv'd , in which he lived , and for which he willingly dy'd , as afterwards may be related . IX . TIMAEUS Locrus , in his Work of Nature , thus Argumentatively expresseth himself in ; One Principle of all , is Unbegotten ; for In the Beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God , & the Word was God , all things were made by him , &c. John 1. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 if it was Begotten , then were it no more that Principle , but that of which it were Begotten would be the Principle . Suitable to this saith CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS , Clem. Alex. * * TIMAEUS affirms , namely , Hear , O Strom. L. 5. 2 King. 19. 19. — Mark 12. 32. — 1 Tim. 2. 5. Israel , the Lord thy God is One , and him only shalt thou Serve . Thus did he endeavour to Refute the Gentiles , and prove the Scriptures out of their own Writings . But again , That God is , and that he is a Spirit , De Anim. and that he is the AUTHOR Mund. God is a Spirit , John 4. 24. — God said , Let there be Light , and there was Light , Gen 1. 3 — He is the Father of Lights , Jam. 1. 17. of all Light. Which how Sober and True it is , let the Scriptures here inserted testifie . X. ANTISTHENES , one of Socrates's School , expressing himself , as it were , Clem. Alex. Strom. L. 5 That thou mayst know , that there is none like Me in all the Earth , saith God , Exod. 9. 14. & 8. 10. — Who in Heaven can be Compared unto the Lord ? who among the Sons of the Mighty can be Likened unto the Lord ? Psal. 89. 6. by way of Paraphrase that Prophetick Saying ; Whom have ye likened me unto , saith the Lord ? thus speaks , He is like none , because no Man can know him from a Likeness or Image . By which we may perceive he did not believe him to be an Image , who could not be known by an Image , nor any thing that could be seen with Carnal Eyes : a Step beyond the Romanists , that teach the Knowledge of , as they darkly Fancy , by Images . XI . PLATO , also Schollar to Socrates , and whom the Greeks for his Heavenly Contemplation , and Pious Life , surnam'd , Divine , gives us his Faith of God in these words , God is FIRST , ETERNAL , I am the Alpha and the Omega , the First & the Last , Rev. 22. 13. Thou art the Everlasting God , Isa. 40 — The Way of the Lord is Perfect , Psal. 80 , 30. He is a Rock ; his Work is Perfect ; for all his Ways are Judgment ; A God of Truth , and without Iniquity , Just & Right is he , Deutr. 23. 4 — For I am the Lord , Isa. 45. 5 — I Change not , Mal. 3. 6. INEFFABLE PERFECT IN HIMSELF ; that is , needing none , and ever Perfect ; that is , absolute in all Times ; and every way perfect ; that is , absolute in every part , Divinity , Essence , Truth , Harmony , Good : Neither do we so name these , to distinguish one from the other , but rather by them all to understand one . He is said to be GOOD , because he bestows his Benefits upon all , according to their several Capacities , and so is the Cause of all Good ; FAIR , because he is in Essence , both More , Better and Equal ; TRUTH , because he is the Principle of all Truth , as the Sun is of all Light. Moreover , God not having many Parts , can neither be locally mov'd , nor alter'd by Qualities ; For if he be alter'd , it must be done by himself , or some other ; if by some other , that Other must be of greater Power then he ; if by Himself , it must be either to Better , or to Worse ; both which are Absurd . From all these it Follows , That God is Incorporeal ; and by all which it is evident , how True , and how Reasonable , and how Firm a Belief Plato had , of One Eternal Being and Father of all . XII . And Lyricus MELANIPPIDES , praying saith : Clem. Alex. Hear me , O Father , thou Wonder of Strom. L. 5. Exod. 1. 15 , 11. — Psalm . 136. 4 , 5 , 6. Men , who alwayes Covernest the Living Soul. This plainly preaches to us their Belief of One Eternal God. XIII . PARMENEDES Magnus , as saith Plato in Clem. Alex. Sophista writes concerning God , on Strom. L. 5. Thy Throne is establisht of Old , thou art from Everlasting , Psal. 93. 2. — Jehovah is Everlasting , Isa. 26. 4. this wise , He is not Begotten , neither is he lyable to any Death ; like a Chain , whose Links are Whole & Round , and alwayes Firm , and Void of a Beginning . What was this , but the Eternal God , by whom all things were made , the First and the Last . XIV . ZENO , a Grave and Wise Philosopher , who instituted the Way of the Stoicks , but not of Vertue ; both the Cynicks and Stoicks , mostly teaching such Doctrine as tended to good Life , may well be said to have been the Followers of Socrates , the ExcellentMan of his time , only they a little differed themselves by some particular Severities too Voluntary , which the Mild , Serious and Unaffected Piety of Socrates gave them no Encouragement to , though none of them trod in a more Self-denying Path , then History tells us , he walkt in . This Zeno and his Disciples , were Vigorous ●…sserters of One Infinite and Eternal God , as by their Doctrines may appear . Zeno tells us , That God is an Immortal Being , Rational , Laert. Perfect or Intellectual in Now to the King Eternal , Immortal , Invisible , the Only Wise God , be Honour and Glory forever , 1 Tim. 1. 17. — The Rich and Poor meet together , the Lord is the Maker of them all , Pro. 22. 2. Come now let us Reason together , saith the Lord , Isa. 1. 18. — Be ye Holy , for I the Lord your God am Holy , Levit. 11. 44. — One God and Father of all , of whom are all things , Ephes. 4. 6. 1 Cor. 8. 16. — Who is a God like Aristot. de Xen. unto thee ? Exod. 15. 4. — The Almighty is Excellent in Power , Job 37. 23. — And his Kingdom rules over all Psal. 103. 19. Beatitude , void of all Evil , provident over the World , and things in the World ; Not of Humane Form , MAKER OF ALL , AS IT WERE , FATHER OF ALL. Again , God , and the Power of God , is such , as that it governs , but is not governed : It governeth all things ; so that if there were any thing more Excellent , He could not possibly be God. This was Zeno's Faith of God , which I cannot believe , that Tho. Hicks himself has so far abandon'd all Reason , as to censure for False , or Idolatrous , that he Taught It as well as Thought It. Let us hear some of his Followers , XV. CHRYSIPPUS , also avers , as his Belief of a Laert. de Ira Dei c. 10. God , that the World was made by him ; consequently he believed there was one : For if Lord , thou art God , which hast made Heaven and Earth , and all that in them is , Acts 4. 24. God that made the World , Psal. 90. 2. — All Nations are unto God , but as a Drop to the Bucket , and the Dust to the Ballance . Isa. 40. 11 , 15. ( saith he ) there be any thing which can procr●…ate such Beings as Man indued with Reason is unable to produce , that ( doubtless ) must needs be Stronger , and Greater , and Wiser then Man ; but a Man cannot make the Celestial things , therefore that which made them transcended Man , in Art , Counsel , Prudence and Power ; And what can that be but GOD ? Thus far Chrysippus , the Stoick , in reference to God. But again , XVI . ANTIPATER , a Famous , Serious and Accute Stoick , in his Discourse of God and the World , declares Plut. himself to us after this manner : Plat. phaed. God is a Spirit , John Antip. de Mund. l. 7. 4. 24. — In whom are hid all the Treasures of Wisdom & Knowledg , Col. 2..8 — Of the Incorruptible God , Rom. 1. 23. The Lord is Good to all , and his tender Mercies are over all his Works , Psal. 85. 9. — God is not far away from every one of us , Acts 17. 27. We understand by that which we call God , A SPIRIT , full of INTELLIGENCE or WISDOM , a Living Nature , or DIVINE SUBSTANCE , Blessed and INCORRUPTIBLE , doing good to Mankind , PRESENT THROUGH THE WHOLE WORLD ; receiving several Denominations from the DIVERSITY OF HIS APPEARANCES , and the various Operations and Effects of his Divine Power shewn therein . Which kind of Evangelical Definition may very rightly induce us to believe him , to have been at least of those who knew God ; but we hope , not of those , who when they knew him , Glorified him not as God. Indeed , what we have hitherto produc'd of them all , may worthily be accounted DIVINITY ; and not the worse for being Gentiles , since God is also therein to be Admired ; so Forceable , so True , and so Conspicuous are their Assertions , and their Reasons for them ; that who will yet believe , there was not a Measure of the Eternal Fulness of all Divine Light shining in the Hearts of these Heathens , to give them the Knowledge of the Glory of the Only True and Invisible God ; must not think it strange , if upon their own Principle of Incredulity , after all their Protestations for , and Professions of the Christian-Religion , any should believe them to be very Mahometans or Infidels ; and that they are over-cast with the darkest Clouds of Envy and Uncharitableness : For my part , I am of the mind , that many Thousands of Christians , at least so reputed ( I mean not of the Rabble neither ) believe not God so clearly , nor are able to give better Reasons for what they do believe of him , then these exhibited in this first part of the Gentile-Divinity . Thus much concerning God , with respect to Himself , his Creation and Providence . CHAP. XI . The Second Fundamental of Gentile . Divinity , viz. That God hath Imprinted the Knowledge of Himself on the Mind of all Mankind . Proved from Twelve Pregnant Testimonies , as well of whole Societies , as particular Persons . Compared with Scripture . IT will be now requisit , that I give an Account of their Belief in God , with respect to that Discovery he is pleased to give of himself unto Mankind , how , and where ; which amounts to what is laid down in my Second Assertion . viz. That God Imprinteth the Knowledge of Himself in the Mind of Mankind ; or , that God's Way of Manifesting Himself to Mankind , is by Enlightning the Soul with his own Divine Light , which Obey'd , leads to Blessedness . That this was their Doctrine , and the Ground of the Knowledge they had of God , be pleased to weigh these their following very plain , yet very weighty Expressions . I. The Mind , saith PYTHAGORAS and his Disciples , onely seeth the ETERNAL GOD , the Ruler and Father of all things . — What greater Pleasure then to behold the Serene Aspect of God ? — What things are agreable to God , cannot be known UNLESS A MAN HEAR GOD HIMSELF . They mutually exhorted one another , not to Divide asunder the * GOD THAT WAS IN THEM ; for that it ought to be their Care , to Preserve their Union with God , and one with another . — Again , saith * Timaeus , one of the Exactest of that School ; The most Excellent Thing the Soul is Awaken'd to , is her Guide , or Good Cenius ( that is , a Measure of the Divine Light and Spirit ) but if she be Rebellious to it , it will prove her Daemon , or Tormentor . But having overcome these things , saith Pythagoras , ( to wit , Evils ) thou shalt know 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Co-habitation or Dwelling together of the IMMORTAL GOD AND MORTAL MEN ; whose Work is Life ; the Work of God is Immortality , Eternal Life . Thus far the Pythagoreans , and certainly far enough to prove the Assertion ; for next to Hearing and Seeing God himself , his Dwelling in , and Tabernacling with Men , what is there of greater Spiritual Intimacy or Union ? O the Folly and great Uncharitableness of those Professors ! that exclude both such Men , and such Knowledge the Kingdom of God , because it is not deliver'd in absolute Scripture-Phraise , whilst it imports much of the very Substance of them , as to Divine Vision , Union with God , and Eternal Life . But to go on . II. HIERON , that Ancient Philosopher , intituled the Universal Light shining in the Conscience , which witnessed , by its Reproof , against Evil ; and if obey'd , led to Immortality , A DOMESTICK GOD , or GOD WITHIN the Hearts and Souls of Men. The Eternal Mind is God , MANIFESTING HIMSELF IN EVERY PARTICULAR OF US . God is that which in Mortal Men gives them to Know aright concerning God. Certainly these Gentiles had an high Veneration for that Light which manifested Darkness , who made it their Rule , their Guide , their Domestick God ; they set him not at a Distance without them ; but believed in him as God , the WORD ; speaking to them in their own Consciences . In which respect the Minor Poets notably express'd themselves . III. BYAS , Prince of his Country Pireen , being invaded by Enemies , and several of the Inhabitants put to flight , with their greatest Wealth ; and He being asked , Why he also carried not his Choisest Goods with him , he answered , I do carry MY GOODS with me . HE BORE THEM ( saith Valerius Maximus ) IN HIS BREAST , not to be seen by the Eye , but prized by the Soul , inclosed in the narrow Dwelling of the Mind , not to be Demolisht by Mortal Hands ; WHICH IS ALWAYS PRESENT WITH THOSE WHO STAY , and NEVER DESERTETH OR FORSAKETH THOSE THAT FLEE . Certainly then , they thought this Divine Principle the greatest Treasure , the surest Companion , the best Comforter and only Sanctuary of the Soul in greatest Extremities , induing it with Piety and Patience , and as what gave that Contentment , which was able to wade through the deepest Calamities . IV. SOPHOCLES is also of that Number , that bears Testimony to Divine Illumination . God grant ( saith he ) that I may alwayes be so happy , as to observe that Venerable Sanctity in my Words and Deeds , which is commanded by these NOBLE LAWS ( speaking of the Laws written in Men's Consciences ) which were made in Heaven ; GOD IS THEIR FATHER , NOT MORTAL NATURE , neither shall they ever be Forgotten or ABROGATED : for there is in them a Great God , that never waxeth Old. This is ( saith he again ) with respect to Man's Conscience , a Divine , a Sacred Good , God the Overseer . Certainly in themselves , very Seraphick Epithites , fraited with strong Faith of a God , and that Way of Inward Discovery , he is pleased to make of himself to Mankind . For it was he that said , Truly there is but One Onely God , who made the Heavens and the Earth . V. It is frequently said of SOCRATES , He had the Guide of his Life Within him ( which , it was told his Father Sophroniscus , should be of more Worth to him then 500. Masters ) he call'd it , His Good Angel or Spirit : that it suggested to his Mind , what was Good & Vertuous , inclin'd & dispos'd him to a Strict and Pious Life ; that it furnisht him with Divine Knowledge , and very often impuls'd or MOVED HIM TO PREACH ( THOUGH IN THE STEETS ) TO THE PEOPLE ; sometimes , in a way of Severe Reproof ; at other times , to Information ; and otherwise , gently to diswade them from Intemperance , Vanity of Life , particularly , from seeing of Playes , and to exhort them to Repentance , Reformation , and Self-Denyal , in hopes of Immortality . VI. PLATO * is not wanting to bring in his Vote , for further Confirmation of our Assertion , on the Behalf of the Gentiles : The Light and Spirit of God , saith he , are as WINGS TO THE SOUL , or as that which raiseth up the Soul into a Sensible Communion with God above the World , which the Mind of Man is prone to slug or bemire it self withal . And adds * PLOTIN , a Famous Platonist , God is the very Root or Life of the Soul. Again , Man hath a Divine Principle in him , which maketh the true and good Man. And the Platonists in general , held Three Principles to be in Man ; the first , they called , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Mind , Intellect , Spirit , or Divine Light. The Second , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Soul of Man. The Third they called , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Soul's Image , which , say they , is her vital Energy upon the Body , and the Feminine Faculty of the Soul. By all which it is evident ( though I could more abundantly prove from their many Writings ) that they believ'd and held Divine Illumination and Inspiration , and that such a Principle resided in Man , even the Eternal 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or Mind ; which is to say in proper English , God Himself , by which alone the Soul could become , what it ought to be to God. VII . CLEANTHES , the Stoick , alloweth not Mankind to be govern'd of right by the Dictates of their own Nature , which barely renders them Men , but by that Divine , Infinite and Eternal Nature , which is God , universally defus'd or sown through the whole Race of Man , as the most sure and infallible Guide and Rule . To live ( saith he ) according to this Knowledge and Direction , is truly to live according to Vertue ; not doing any thing that is forbidden . The Vertue and Happiness of a Man depends upon the close Correspondence of his Mind , with the Divine Will of him , who governeth the Universe . Again , saith the same Cleanthes , THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD IS IMPRINTED UPON THE MINDS OF MEN. VIII . MENANDER , signifying God to be Good , saith , Every Man hath a good Daemon as soon as he is born , an Holy Instructor in governing of the Life ; as that I may confess him to be an Evil Daemon , who hurts the Life of a Good Man. Then subjoyns he , That a Good God is in all , that God is perfectly Good , and that he is Good in all . Again , on another Occasion saith he , God , who is alwayes near , sees this ; for God is not a God afar off . IX . PHILO , though a Jew born , yet a very Serious and Refin'd Philosopher , gives us his Judgment in this Particular very positively , and to purpose : How should the Soul of Man ( saith he ) know God , IF HE DID NOT INSPIRE HER , AND TAKE HOLD OF HER BY HIS DIVINE POWER ? Again , That the Divine Reason we have from God , is an Infallible Law , not a Mortal Rule given , by this or that Mortal ; NO LIFELESS PRECEPTS WRITTEN IN PAPERS , OR UPON PILLARS , BUT IMMORTAL , being ingraven by the Eternal Nature IN THE MINDS OF MEN. This is an undeniable Testimony to the Law written in the Heart , as a more Excellent Dispensation , then that which is written in Paper , or engraved on Pillars , But further , X. Nor is PLUTARCH wanting to the Proof of this Assertion , on the behalf of the Gentiles Divinity , who thus delivers himself , speaking of the Principle of God in the Conscience : It is a Law ( saith he ) not written in Tables or Books , but dwelling in the Mind , ALWAYS AS A LIVING RULE , which never permits the Soul to be destitute of an interiour Cuide . Again , To debase this Ancient Faith of Mankind , and Natural Belief , which is planted in all Reasonable Souls , is to Overthrow the Strong and Everlasting Foundation of Vertue . Doubtless very Peremptory , Zealous and Sensible , doth Plutarch show himself on the behalf of an Internal , Divine Principle . XI . But be pleased to hear what * EPICTETUS says in this Matter , whose Vertue was admirable in its time , and whose Memory is preserv'd in great Respect among many , who would think themselves much wrong'd , if they should not be accounted Christians . When you have shut your Gates ( saith he ) and made it all Dark Within ; that is to say , are retired to your own Dwelling , as alone , do not say that you are alone , for you are not alone , but GOD IS WITHIN : What need then is there of outward Light , to discover what is done , or to light to good Actions , who have God or that Genius , or Divine Principle for your Light , as the following words do further import . But above all the Gentiles that have been mention'd , I mean in Point of plain and Positive Expression ( for I will prefer the Life of none before that Self-denying Martyr Socrates ) let us hear with great Attention , what kind of Lecture SENEC A will read us upon the Subject handled ; truly something very weighty . XII . The Multitude ( saith SENECA ) is the worst Argument ; Let us inquire what is best to be done , not what most usually is done , and that may settle us in the Possession of Everlasting Happiness ; not what is allotted by the Vulgar , the worst Interpreters of Truth ; I have ( saith he ) a clearer and more certain Light , by which I may judge the Truth from Falshood , that which appertains to the Felicity of the Soul , the Eternal Mind will direct to ; that was the Light doubtless Seneca meant — * Again , It is a foolish thing for thee to wish what by thee cannot be obtained . God is near thee , and HE IS IN THEE . The Holy Spirit SITS OR RESIDES WITHIN US ; the Observer of our Good and Evil Actions ; as he is dealt with by us , HE DEALS WITH US — But yet further , we have this great Gift , saith Sene●… , * That Vertue ( meaning the Principle , or God ) hath sent her Light before into the Minds of all ; for even they that follow her not , SEE HER. Where observe , Reader , how he confesseth to the Universality of the Light ; yet lays the Fault of Rebellion against it , not ( as T. Hicks doth ) upon the Light , but such as refuse to follow it ; implying their voluntary Rejection of its Heavenly Discoveries . — * Again , Wonderest thou that Men go to God ? God comes UNTO Men ; nay , which is more near , he cometh INTO MAN ; and he makes the Heart of every good Man his Habitation . — Yet again hear him ; * Nothing is closed from God , he is within our Souls , and he Cometh INTO THE MIDST OF OUR THOUGHTS . — And lastly , * Every Man ( saith he ) has God indued with that , which if he forsake it not , HE SHALL ARISE LIKE GOD. How much more weighty , O Sober and Impartial Reader , are these inward Doctrines of the Vertuous Gentiles , then the Vehement Clamours , and Uncharitable Exclamations of Empty Christians against them . Men , that seem as if they were a●…raid of nothing more , then inherent Holiness , though of Christ's working ; reputing it a kind of Undervalue of his Blood , to feel the Only ( I mean the Inward ) Benefit of it : accounting us the greatest Hereticks , for assenting to the greatest Truth ; to wit , The Sufficiency of his Universal Light in the Hearts of Men to Salvation ; challenging us to prove it by Scripture , or any Credible History ; objecting the Heathens Ignorance and Idolatry against the Truth of its Discoveries and Efficacy of its Power . If we had not desended the Light 's Sufficiency from these Authorities , then our Assertion had been declared infirm ; with no small Shew of Triumph and Insult ; and now we have made good our Ground against their Objections , the next News I expect to hear from such as are Perverse among them , will be our Heathening , ●…r turning Heathens . But as all they could do , would not make us Christians , if Heathens ; so neither can their Prejudice ( being True-Spirited Christians ) render us in their Sense Heathens with Sober and Impartial Persons . CHAP. XII . That this was not only the Doctrine and Faith of the Gentiles , but the very Primitive Doctors or Fathers , both so held and so exprest themselves . Eight Testimonies produced for Proof thereof . BUt as I have hitherto made evidently appear , both that the Gentiles Believed in One God , and had a very clear Apprehension of the Light , or Divine Principle placed in Man , from whom all Heavenly Knowledge was to be derived ; and that this Divine Light , or Spirit , or Principle was by them asserted to be the most certain Guide , and infallible Rule of Faith and Practice : And further , that the Scriptures produced abundantly verifie their Doctrines , as that due Comparison of them will evidence ; so to the End these angry Men I have to do with , should not count it a Prophaning of holy Writ ; or think that I am the only Man , that ever had that favourable Apprehension of these Gentile-Doctrines ; I am willing to instance some of the most Primitive and Approved Fathers of the Christian-Church . And by a short view of what they believed in reference to the present Subject , with their way of phraising such Belief , we may the more clearly perceive , how far those Gentiles are by them Reprehensible , either with respect to their Soundness in Judgement , or Expression ; that if it be possible , we may remove all Pretence for Objection against the Universality and Sufficiency of this Blessed Light. I. JUSTINUS MARTYR , whom I therefore chuse to begin with , because from a Learned Philosopher , becoming an Honest Christian , and Constant Martyr ( from whence he was sirnamed , Martyr ) he could the better tell us the Difference of the Change : But so far was he from reputing the Principle of God within Men Hetrodox , or Inconsistent with the Purity of the Christian Religion , that with no small Earnestness , he therefore pleads against all Coercive Power upon Conscience , and the Pompous Worship of the Heathens , in their Temples ( as his Apologies will inform us ) because saith he , GOD HATH BUILT TO HIMSELF A NATURAL TEMPLE IN THE CONSCIENCES OF MEN , as the Place wherein he would be Worshipped ; and that there Men ought to look for his Appearance , and Reverence and Worship him ; or to that purpose . II. To this doth CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS , that Earnest Contender against the Apostate Gentiles , plainly assent , who often , but more particularly in these few Places following , recommends to us the Light , or Word Within . It is the Voice of Truth ( saith he ) that Light will shine out of Darkness . Therefore doth it shine in the hidden Part of Mankind , that is , in the Heart ; and the Rayes of Knowledge break forth , making manifest , and shining upon the inward Man , which is hidden . — Christ's Intimates and Coheirs , are the Disciples of the Light , He further expresseth himself in another Place ; Man cannot be void of Divine Knowledge , who Naturally , or as he comes into the World , partaketh of Divine Inspiration ; as being of a more Pure Essence , or Nature , then any other Animals . And as assenting to the Doctrine of some Ancient Philosophers and other Heathen Authors ( for against the Gentiles of his time , I suppose , he may make use of no less then about Two Hundred and Fifty ) he doth very frequently attest , the Truth of the Doctrine of the Divine Light in Man , as Man's Concomitant , to all good Works ; as one Passage eminently proves . I earnestly exhort thee , because I would have thee saved , and that would Christ also , who offers thee Life in one Word : But thou mayst say , What is it ? IT IS THE WORD OF TRUTH , THE INCORRUPTIBLE WORD , WHICH REGENERATES MANKIND , AND LEADS HIM AGAIN TO TRUTH ; the Spur that pricketh on to Salvation , who expelleth the Destruction , chaseth away Death , and hath BUILT A TEMPLE IN MANKIND , THAT IT MAY PLACE GOD IN MAN. I know not any of the Ancients more profoundly read in the Doctrines of the Gentiles , then this Clemens Alexandrinus ; and who to prove the Verity of the Christian-Religion against them , doth numerously cite , and insert the Writings of the more Venerable Heathens , and with the very Books of their Admired Ancestors , doth he accutely argue the Unreasonableness of their Opposition to Christianity , the very top of Vertue , and Perfection of Goodness ; as did Christ , to prove himself the True Messiah , urge the Scriptures to those ( pretended ) great Believers in them , as an Aggravation of their Incredulity . III. TERTULLIAN , then whom there was not any I ever read more sharp against the Dissolute Gentiles of his time ( as his most quaint Apology for the Christians , and in it his severe Charge against their Enemies doth particularly assure us ) thinks it to be neither Heresie nor Heathenism , as it is commonly understood , to believe and assert , That a Life , subject to the Holy Guidings of the Universal Light in the Conscience , is a kind of Natural Christianity , or , to be Naturally a Christian. And though in his Apology he stabs , with the sharpest Points of Wit , Reason and Truth , the Cause of Degenerated Philosophy , or rather those that were unmeritedly called Philosophers ; yet he lays it still on the side of their great Apostacy from that Noble Principle , which worthily Renowned their Predecessors ; the Being of whose Stock , and Assuming whose Titles alone , they Vainly esteem'd Warrant enough , for their so great Pretensions to Real Science ; not unlike the Pharisees of the Jews , as hath already been observed . IV. ORIGEN , who I may say was twice a Christian ; first , by Education , and next , by Choyce ; a strong Defender of Christianity , as his notable Books against Celsus and others , do abundantly witness ; treating of that Divine Light , with which God has illuminated Mankind , as his Universal Endowment , calls it , AN IMMUTABLE LAW , WHICH WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL , IS ENGRAVEN UPON THE HEART , AND GRAFTED INTO THE SOUL OF MAN. V. LACTANTIUS , Scholar to Arnobius , who writ smartly against the Apostate Gentiles , esteemed a good and acute Man , thus delivers himself about the Matter in hand : THE LAW OF GOD ( saith he ) is made known unto us , WHOSE LIGHT , like the STARS TO THE MARINER in the Night Season , clearly discovers to us THE PATH OF WISDOM : That Law is Pure and Unspotted Reason ( not inconsonant with , nor unintelligible by Nature ) DEFUSED THROUGH ALL THE WORLD ; in it self UNCHANGEABLE and ETERNAL ; which , that it may deter Man from Vice , doth faithfully by its INJUNCTIONS and PROHIBITIONS , DECLARE UNTO MAN HIS DUTY . — Again , The Way to ascend up to the House of Truth , IS TO BEHOLD WITHIN US , THAT THERE IS ONE MOST HIGH GOD , who made , and governs all things ; that Christ is God's Ambassadour and Builder , sent unto Men , and as they receive him INTO THEIR HEARTS , HE BUILDETH A DIVINE AND IMMORTAL TEMPLE IN THEM . VI. But let us deliberately read , what the so much admired ATHANASIUS says to the Gentiles , who did frequently cast out that ( Vulgar ) Objection to the Christians ; How know you that yours is the Right Way ? The Way , whereby to attain to the Knowledge of God , IS WITHIN US , which is proved from Moses ; who saith , THE WORD OF GOD IS WITHIN THY HEART ; and from this Saying of Christ , THE FAITH AND KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU . If then , says Athanasius , the KINGDGM OF GOD BE WITHIN US , likewise are we able to understand the WORD or VOICE OF THE FATHER . Which Solid , Ancient and Great Truth , could not but highly aggravate the Blame of such , as were Infidel to it ; because it was but the Doctrine of their Fam'd Philosophers more clearly and Scripturally exprest ; as it doth abundantly testifie to us , upon which Ground it was , the Primitive Christians believed , and practised their Religion . Not Tradition , however Holy ; but Sound Internal Conviction and Revelation ; from no Words Without , BUT THE ETERNAL WORD OF GOD IN THE HEART ; the great Discoverer of the Will and Way of God to Men : He that knows this Word or Divine Principle to raign in his Heart , knoweth the Kingdom of God come there , and his Will done , even the Sanctification of the Soul. VII . CHRYSOSTOME also , is not wanting to ascribe some Honour to this Holy Light , we contend for ; who not only confesseth the Light mention'd in the first of John , to be Christ , the Word-God , who inlightneth all Mankind coming into the World , but also avers it to be of a Saving Nature unto all who believe in it , and follow it ; wherefore , saith he , Let none blame the Light they are not Saved , but their own Rebellion , who refuse to be saved by it . This he very solemnly calls , A TEACHER OR INSTRUCTOR , DWELLING IN MAN's NATURE , or that no Man is without a Teacher , to Instruct , Inspire , Help and Assist him in what leads to Eternal Life I will conclude these Christian Testimonies with a Passage out of AUGUSTINE , not unsuitable to the Business in hand . VIII . AUGUSTINE , in his Discourse on John , has this very notable Passage , viz. THAT GOD IS PROPERLY KING OF MINDS OR SOULS , because when he is receiv'd in , he governeth by his Divine Power and Spirit in the Heart ; therefore is not his Kingdom after the Manner of this , World , BUT WITHIN ; and much to this purpose . Again he Distinguisheth upon the Word REASON ; There is a Superior and Inferior Reason , saith he , the Inferior is a meer Rational Creature , or that Understanding which distinguisheth a Man from a Beast ; but the Superior Reason is a LIGHT , or , as it were , a POWER in Mankind , DICTATING , REVEALING and INJOYNING DIVINE , ETERNAL and INTIRELY GOOD THINGS , as for Example , when it shall say , This is Sin , thou oughtest no to commit , but AVOID it ; Why ? Because it offends God. Thus far of Primitive Christian-Divinity , from about 132. years after Christ , to about 400. years after Christ ; by way of Confirmation , of that Part of the Gentile-Divinity , which might with least Credit be imbraced ; for to cite never so many Primitive Christian Authors , to prove a God , Holy Life , and the Immortality of the Soul , the other Points of Gentile-Divinity would look like Labour in vain , since none that believes them to have been Christians , ought to doubt of their holding these very things , which in a great measure character'd them such ; but that which is ( though it should not be ) the Wonder , is , to quote them in the Language of the so much , yet so undeservedly decri'd and abused Quakers , viz. That not only the best Gentiles , but most approved Christians of the Primitive Times , Confess to a Divine Light , Principle , Word or Spirit in Man , whose Inspiration gives infallible Understanding , and as Man is guided by it , he shall be Recovered out of that Mire , Sin has stuck him in , and it will Free him from the Snares of Pleasures , Inlighten his Eyes , Inspire his Soul , and Lead him gently by the hand in the Way of Eternal Righteousness ; whose Reward from God will be Immortality and Eternal Life . CHAP. XII . The Third Part of the Gentile-Divinity , viz. That they were Men of Vertuous Lives , and taught the Indispensibleness thereof to Life Eternal . Prov'd by Numerous Instances . IT may be now time , that I dispatch the other two Parts of the Gentile-Divinity , which I shall endeavour with all convenient Brevity . There are many Instances of their Pious Doctrine , and singular Examples of their Vertue ; I will instance in a few , to convince , if I can , such as scarcely believe any Good of them , ( and the rather ( I fear ) that they may not charge the Bad upon the Light ) that their Doctrines and Practice , with respect to Good Living , were , and are very Commendable and Approveable of all Good Christians . I. PITTACUS Mitilenaeus , one of the Seven Wise Men of Greece , as they were called , his Apophthegms were these : What thou tak'st Ill in thy Neighbonr , DO NOT THY SELF . — Reproach not the Unhappy ; for the Hand of GOD is on them . — Restore what is committed to thy Trust. — Bear with thy Neighbour . — LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR . — Reproach not * thy Friend , though he recede from thee a little . — Acquire Honesty ; Seek Obsequiousness ; Love Discipline , Temperance , Prudence , TRUTH , FAITH , Experience , Dexterity , Society , Diligence , Oeconomy and PIETY . II. CHILON , another of them , he was so Just in all his Actions , that in his old Age he professed , He never had done any thing contrary to the Conscience of an Upright Man , only that of one thing he was doubtful ; Having given Sentence against his Friend , according to Law , he advised his Friend to Appeal from him ( his Judge ) so to preserve both his Friend and the Law. Agellius relates it thus ; When his Lise drew towards an End , ready to be seized by Death , he spoke thus to his Friends about him : My Words and Actions in this Long Term of Years have been ( almost all ) such , as I need not Repent of , which perhaps you also know ; TRULY , EVEN AT THIS TIME I AM CERTAIN , I NEVER COMMITTED ANY THING , THE REMEMBRANCE WHEREOF BEGETS ANY TROUBLE IN ME , unless this one thing only , which , whether it were done amiss or not , I am uncertain : I sate with two others , as Judge upon the Life of my Friend ; the Law was such , as the Person must of necessity be condemned , so that either my Friend must lose his Life , or some Deceit be used towards the Law ; revolving many things in my Mind , for a Relief of a Condition so desperate , I conceived , that which I put in Practice , to be of all other the most easie to be born : Silently I Condemned him , and perswaded these others who judged to Absolve him : Thus preserved ( in so great a Business ) the Duty both of a Judge and Friend ; but from the Act I receive this * Trouble , that I fear it is not free from Perfidiousness and Guilt ; in the same Business , at the same time , and in a publique Affair , to PERSIVADE OTHERS , CONTRARY TO WHAT WAS IN MY OWN JUDGEMENT BEST . Of his Apophtegms , or Sayings , these few are delivered to us by Laertius . He said , Providence of Future Things collected by Reason , is the Vertue of a Man. Being demanded , wherein the Learned differ from the Unlearned ? he answered , In a Good Hope . What is hard ? To conceal Secrets , to dispose of Leisure well , and be able to bear an INJURY ; therefore said Chilon to his Brother , I CAN BEAR INJURIES , THOU CANST NOT ; nor Tho. Hicks , I am sure , sor he is Angry where he sustains none ; HIS WATER HAS NOT WASHT HIM SO CLEAN , AS THE LIGHT DID CHILON . III. The Precepts of the Seven Sophists of Greece , in general ; THALES , SOLON , PERIANDER , CLEOBULUS , CHILON , BIAS , and PITTACUS ( called seven Wise Men ) collected by Sosiades , about 2300. years old . FOLLOW GOD ; Obey the Law ; WORSHIP GOD ; Reverence thy Parents , Suffer for Justice ; Know thy self ; Consider Mortal things ; Respect Hospitality ; Command thy self ; Honour Providence ; USE NOT SWEARING ; Speak well of that which is Good ; * Disparage none ; Praise Vertue ; Do what is Just ; Abstain from Evil ; Instruct thy Children ; Fear Deceit ; Be a Lover of Wisdom ; Judge according to Equity ; Curb thy * Tongue ; Examine without Corruption ; Do that whereof thou shalt not Repent ; When thou hast sin'd , be Penitent ; Confine thy Eye ; Perfect quickly ; Pursue what is profitable ; Be in Childhood Modest , in Youth Temperate , in Manhood Just , and in old Age Prudent ; THAT THOU MAYST DYE UNTROUBLED . Thus far the Wise Men , which were therefore so call'd , because of their Extraordinary Vertue , and truly deserved the Name of Christian , and Vertuous , more abundantly then they , who have it . IV. PYTHAGORAS very truly tells us , The Discourse of that Philosopher is Vain , by which no Passion of a Man is Healed . What serves the much Preaching of T. H. J. G. and J. B. then , who have not yet Cured themselves ? All which is determin'd to be done , should aim at , and tend to the Acknowledgment of the Deity . Endeavour not to Conceal thy Faults with Words , but to Amend them by Reproof . This is the Principle , ( saith Pythagoras ) and the whole Life of Men consists in this , THAT THEY FOLLOW GOD , and this is the Ground of Right Philosophy . Purity is acquir'd by Expiations , and by Refraining from Murder and Adultery , and ALL POLLUTION . We ought either to be Silent , or to speak things that are better then Silence . Temperance is the Strength of the Soul ; for it is the Light of the Soul , clear from Passion . It is better to Dye , then to cloud the Soul by INTEMPERANCE . ●…ythagoras returns not Reproaches for Reproaches . Tho. Hicks and John Bunion Reproach , when they are not Reproached . Behold the Difference betwixt an Heathen , and two Scolding Christians , but therefore no True Christians . V. ANAXAGORAS held , That CONTEMPLATION OF GOD was the End of Li●…e , and that Liberty , which proceeds from such Heavenly Meditation To one who blam'd him for neglecting his Country ; WRONG ME NOT ( said he ) MY GREATEST CARE IS MY COUNTRY ; pointing to Heaven . Suidas saith , That he was cast into Prison by the Athenians , for Introducing a New Opinion concerning God , and Banisht the City , though Pericles undertook to plead his Cause . Josephus saith , That the Athenians believing the Sun to be God , which he affirm'd to be without Sense and Knowledge , he was by the Votes of a Few of them condemn'd to Death . However thus they writ upon his Grave , as Englisht by T. Stanley . Here lies , who through the truest Pathes did pass O' th World Celestial , ANAXAGORAS . Which was an high Testimony to his Good Life , and their Belief of his arriving at Immortality VI. SOCRATES , Right Philosophy is the Way to True Happiness ; the Offices whereof are two , To Contemplate God , and to Abstract the Soul from Corporeal Sense . To do Good is the best Course of Life . Vertue is the Beauty , Vice the Deformity of the Soul. Nobility is a good Temper of Soul and Body . The Best Way of Worshipping God is to Do what he Commands . An hard Saying to Professors . Our Prayers should be for Blessings in general ; for God knows best what is good for Us. GOD CONSIDERS INTEGRITY , NOT MUNIFICENCE . This judgeth Formal Christians , with their Exterior Worship . The Office of a Wise Man is , to discern what is Good and Honest , and to shun that which is Dishonest . They who know what they ought to do , and do it not , are not Wise and Temperate , but Fools and stupid . Of all things which Man can call his , the SOUL to be Chief ; and that HE ONLY IS TRULY HAPPY WHO PURIFIETH THAT FROM VICE . He taught every where , That a Just Man and a Happy Man were all one . He said , He wondred at those who carve Images of Stone , that they take such Care to make Stones resemble Men , whilst they neglect , and suffer themselves to resemble Stones . He meant , they had Stony Hearts , as the Prophet expresseth it . Being demanded , who live without Perturbation ? he answer'd , THEY WHO ARE CONSCIOUS TO THEMSELVES OF NO EVIL THING . Being demanded , whom he thought Richest ? he answer'd , Stob. 40. HE WHO IS CONTENTED WITH LEAST ; for Content is the Riches of Nature . Being demanded , what CONTINENCE is ? he answer'd , GOVERNMENT OF CORPORAL PLEASURES . Good Men must let the World see , THAT THEIR MANNERS ARE MORE FIRM THEN AN OATH . Then there is a State of Integrity above Swearing , that by the Light Socrates had , he preferred before Swearing , as I may again observe . But to proceed , let us hear the Charge of his Enemies , and his Defence . Melitus , Son of Melitus , a Pythian , accused Socrates , Son of Sophroniscus , an Alopecian : Socrates violateth the Law , not believing the Acities which this City believeth ; BUT INTRODUCING ANOTHER GOD. HE VIOLATES THE LAW LIKEWISE IN CORRUPTING YOUTH ; THE PUNISHMENT , DEATH . The Charge is the same to this day ; Good Men are made Offenders for a Word . Soon after Anytus ( who caused that Bill to be preferred by Melitus , in that Socrates industriously assay'd his Overthrow , and the Rest of his Comical Associates ; for they were Comedians ) sent privately to him , desiring him to forbear the mention of his Trade ; and assuring him , that he would thereupon withdraw his Action . But Socrates return'd him Answer , THAT HE WOULD NEVER FORBEAR SPEAKING TRUTH SO LONG AS HE LIVED ; That he would alwayes use the same Speeches concerning him ; That this Accusation was not of Force enough , to make him refrain from speaking those things , which he thought himself before oblieg'd to say . Again observe his Resolution . It is likely , God in his Love to me , hath ordain'd , that I should Dye in the most convenient Age , and by the Gentlest Means ; for , if I dye by Sentence , I am allowed the Benefit of the most easie kind of Death ; I shall give my Friends the least Trouble : Further , If , when I give an Account of my Actions towards God and Men , the Judges think fit to condemn me , I will rather chuse to Dye , then to beg of them a Life worse then Death . Yet that I dye unjustly , it will not trouble me , it is not a Reproach to me , but to those who condemned me ; I am much satisfied with the Example of Palamedes , who suffered Death in the like manner ; He is much more commended , then Ulysses the Procurer of his Death : I know , both future and past Times will witness , I NEVER HURT OR INJUR'D ANY , but on the contrary have Advantag'd all that conversed with me to my utmost Ability , communicating what Good I could gratis , and not for Gain . I think it most Unbeseeming a Philosopher to Sell his Advice , and extreamly contrary to my Practice ; sor ever since by God's Command , I first enter'd into * Philosophy , I was never known to take any thing , but keep my Exercises in publick , for every one to hear that will ; I neither Lock the Door when I Teach , nor go abroad to the Multitude , and exact Money of the Hearers , as some heretosore have done , and some in our times yet do . Was not Socrates then beyond the Priests of our Day , I mean as well some Creeping Non - Conformists , as any other , who make a Trade of it , and indeed it is their best . The Righteousness of this Heathen condemns their Mercenary Practice , who pretend to be Christian-Ministers ; and giveth Proof of an higher State , then they have yet attained . VII . ANTISTHENES , Institutor of the Cynicks , as they were called , and Scholar to Socrates , taught , That Vertue was the truest Nobility , that PIETY WAS ALONE NEEDFULL TO LASTING HAPPINESS . — That true Vertue stood not in Saying , but Doing that which was Good. — Not in much Learning , or many Words , but upright Actions . In short , that the Principle of Vertue is sufficient to what Wisdom is needful , and that all other things ought to have reference thereto . That PIETY IS THE BEST ARMOUR , and Vertuous Persons are alwayes Friends . That Vertue is an Armour , none can either pierce , or take from Good Men. He prefers a Just Man before his Neighbour , and good Women's Souls the same Priviledge to Vertue , with Men's . He accounted Pleasures one of the greatest Mischiefs in the World ; and being ask'd , what LEARNING was best ? he answer'd , That which Unlearns Men Evil ; for those , saith he , who would Live forever , must have a Care that their Lives be Holy and Just in this World. IX . From DIOGENES , his constant Scholar and Friend , take this one very true and notable Saying . Of Spiritual Exercitation Laertius makes him speak to this purpose , in his Account of his Doctrine : That where Men's Souls are deeply and frequently employ'd in that Spiritual Retirement , and waiting for Divine Strength ; and are often exercised in Meditation upon the Eternal Mind ; HOLY REVELATIONS OR ILLUMINATIONS WILL OCCUR , WHICH ENLIGHTEN THE SOUL , AND ENABLE IT , THE BETTER TO LIVE , AND ACT VERTUOUSLY . X. Nay , so greatly were the Piety and Wisdom of XENOCRATES reverenc'd at Athens , about Four Hundred Years besore Swear not at all , was spoken by our Lord Jesus , that the Judges of that Place would not offer to put Xenocrates upon his Oath in an high Matter of Evidence , in case he would have Sworn ; because they thought it an Affront to his Integrity , that his bare Word should not be prefer'd before all the Oaths of other Men ; Dispensing , says Valerius Maximus , with that to him , they would not have Excused in one another . Which is no small Proof , that the LIGHT among the Heathens , impeacht Oaths in Evidence of Imperfection , as being but only Supplemental , or in the Place of Remedies , against want of Honesty ; and obviously esteem'd it an higher , and more noble State , to arrive at the Integrity , which needs not the extraordinary and a frighting Obligation of an Oath , where meer Fear of the Curse , intail'd upon Perjury , and not an innate Faithfulness , most commonly extorts true Evidence ; which is a sufficient Answer to T. H. how , and by what LIGHT we could have aim'd at that Perfection , or have known that Doctrine , had not the Scriptures been . XI . The Chief Good therefore , said ZENO , is to square our Lives according to the Knowledge given us from the Eternal Being , when the Soul , entring into the Path of Vertue , walketh by the Steps and Guidance of right Reason , and followeth God. Which brings to my Remembrance these Stoical Maxims deliver'd by Laertius , Cicero , Quintilian , &c. and collected by T. S. for us ; charg'd upon Zeno , and his Disciples : some of which I had formerly an Occasion to mention in another Discourse . They are these : A Wise Man is void of Passion . ( Remember T. H. and J. B. unless you will renounce Patience , because an Heathen preferrs it ) — A Wise Man is Sincere . — A Wise Man is Divine ; for he hath God with himself : but a Wicked Man is an Atheist — The Wicked are contrary to the Good ; God , he is Good , so against God. — A Wise Man is Religious , he is Humble , He only is a Priest. — He only is a Prophet . — He Loves and Honours his Parents . — A Wise Man only is Free. — A Wise Man is void of Sin. Upon which I query , whether this amounts not to as much as what the Scriptures teach , and these here inserted tell you ; That the Fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Wisdom , and to depart from Iniquity a Good Understanding ? But further , to the same Purpose ; A Wise Man is Innocent . — A Wise Man is Free ; Wicked Men are Slaves . — Again , A Wise Man is only Perfect ; for he wanteth no Vertue ; a Wicked Man is Imperfect , for he hath no Vertue . Whereby it is evident , that the Wisdom they meant was Vertue , in Opposition to Vice , which they esteemed Folly , as doth the Scripture frequently ; as much as to say , those who are thus Good , are only Wise. Again , A Wise Man never Lyeth . — A Wise Man is Peaceable , Meek , Modest , Diligent , Vertuous , Constant , and only is Incitable to Vertue ; Fools are not . Where it is obvious , that by Fools they meant Wicked and Indocible People , who are Stiff-necked , Rebelling against God , not delighting to retain God in their Knowledge . XII . PLATO thus , To be like God , is to be HOLY , JUST and WISE , which is the End of Man's being born , and should be of his studying Philosophy ; that Vertue and Honesty are all one ; as saith Clemens Alexandrinus out of him . This , Reader , was the Doctrine ; this the Study ; and which is best of all , this was the Practice of many of the Vertuous Heathens ; who became a Law unto themselves , bounding their Appetites , whether Corporal or Mental , within the approved Limits of an Inward Holy Guide , like Careful Mariners , steering the Course of their Lives by the Direction of that Heavenly Star , which in the Gentile-Night rise in their Consciences , to guide them unto a Blessed Immortality ; which will be the Last Point of their Divinity , and then we close this Discourse with respect to them . CHAP. XIV . That the Last Point of Gentile-Divinity , to wit , Immortality and Eternal Rewards , is also very clearly and positively held forth by the Ancient Heathens . Six Testimonies from them , to prove it . Socrates's Great Faith in particular ; and the Lofty Strain of the Pythagoreans . THat the Gentiles believed there was an IMMORTALITY , and that all Men should hereafter be Accountable for the Deeds done in the Body ( a Point , but obscurely lay'd down , among the Jews themselves ) be pleased to take these few insuing Authorities , as a Proof of what is asserted . I. PYTHAGORAS , and the Pythagoreans , that they all held the Immortality of the Soul. Consider his and their Doctrine in the Point . First , he said , That the Soul is Immortal . Next , That the Soul is Incorruptible , it never Dyeth ; for when it goes out of the Body , it goes into the other World , THE PURE TO GOD , THE IMPURE BOUND BY FURIES IN INDISSOLVABLE CHAINS . Here IMMORTALITY and REWARDS are asserted . But when a Man , who has lived Justly , dyeth , his Soul ASCENDETH TO THE PURE AETHER ( or Heaven ) and lives in the Happy Aevum ( or Everlasting Age ) with the Blessed . II. * HERACLITUS , If my Body be over-press'd , it must descend to the destinate Place ; Nevertheless , MY SOUL SHALL NOT DESCEND , BUT BEING A THING IMMORTAL , SHALL FLY UP ON HIGH TO HEAVEN . III. EURIPIDES , a grave Tragedian , whose Work was to undo what Wanton Comedians had done to undo the People , speaks thus : Who knoweth , whether to Dye be not to Live , and to Live to Dye . Surely he said so not out of any Distrust of Immortality , but in Belief of it , and that Reward which would attend Good Men. IV. SOCRATES , The Body being Compounded , is Dissolved by Death ; The SOUL being Simple , PASSETH INTO ANOTHER LIFE INCAPABLE OF CORRUPTION . THE SOUL OF THE GOOD AFTER DEATH ARE IN A HAPPY ESTATE , UNITED TO GOD IN A BLESSED IN ACCESSIBLE PLACE ; THE BAD IN CONVENIENT PLACES SUFFER CONDIGN PUNISHMENT . This puts the Case , of the Sufficiency of the Light , to discover Immortality to the very Heathen , out of all doubt , and not only so , but Rewards too ; since we have them , here , believing , THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL BE SAVED , AND THE WICKED DAMNED . This made Socrates so chearful at his Death , something of which I think fit here to insert . Truly , did I not believe , I should go to the Just God , and to Men better then any Living , I were inexcusable ●…or contemning Death ; BUT I AM SURE TO GO TO GOD , A VERY GOOD MASTER , and hope to meet with Good Men ; AND AM OF GOOD COURAGE , hoping that SOMETHING OF MAN SUBSISTS AFTER DEATH ; AND THAT IT IS THEN MUCH BETTER WITH THE GOOD THEN WITH THE BAD . When he had made an end of Speaking , CRITO ( one of his Followers ) ask'd him , what Directions he would leave concerning his Sons , and other Affairs , and if they could do any thing that might be acceptable to him ? I desire no more ( saith he ) then what I have often told you , If you take Care of Your selves , whatsoever you do , will be acceptable to me and mine , though you promise nothing ; if you Neglect Your selves and VERTUE , you can do nothing acceptable to us , THOUGH YOU PROMISE NEVER SO MUCH . That , answer'd CRITO , we shall observe ; But how wilt thou be Buried ? As you think good ( saith he ) IF YOU CAN CATCH ME , and that I give you not the slip . Then with a Smile applying himself unto us , I cannot perswade CRITO ( saith he ) that I am any thing more then the Carkase you will anon behold ; and therefore he takes this Care ●…or my Enterment : It seems , that what even now I told him , that as soon as I have taken the Poyson , I SHALL GO TO THE JOYES OF THE BLESSED , hath been to little purpose ; He was my Bail , bound to the Judges ●…or my Appearance , you must now be SURETIES to him , that I am DEPARTED ; Let him not say , THAT SOCRATES IS CARRIED TO THE CRAVE , OR LAID UNDER GROUND ; for know , dear CRITO , such a Mistake WERE A WRONG TO MY SOUL ; be not dejected , Tell the World , MY BODY ONLY IS BURIED , and that after what manner thou pleasest . Yet ( saith SOCRATES ) I may pray to God , and will , That my Passage hence may be Happy , which I beseech him to grant ; and in the same instant drank it off easily , without any Disturbance . This ( saith Plato ) was the End of the Best , the Wisest , and most Just Men. A Story , which Cicero professeth he never read without Tears . This ends Socrates upon the present Subject ; and Happy Man was he , to make so happy an End , as to Dye for the only true God : he had great Reason to believe ( maugre the Envious Uncharitableness of T. H. ) that he would Reward him , when it shall be said to many Bawling pretended Christians , Depart from me ; I know you not : for as Men Sow , so shall they Reap in the Day of God. I need not to tell the World , that Plato , and other Heathens , have written accurately upon that Subject , when it is so Notorious : Wherefore to close up my Testimonies upon this Head , and whole Discourse of Gentile-Divinity , I will present the Reader with two short Passages , one of the Pythagoreans ; the other from Virgil , thus tran●…lated to my hand ( only a little varied ) by an Ingenious Author . V. Donec long a Dies perfecto temporis Orbe Concretam exemit Labem , purumque reliquit Aethereum Sensum , atque aur ai simplicis ignem . In English thus : Till that long Day at last be come about That wasted has all Filth and Foul Desire , And leaves the Soul CELESTIAL THROUGHOUT , Bathing her Senses in pure liquid Fire . To which agrees that Golden Distick of the Pythagoreans , as it hath been called . VI. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To this purpose : Who after Death once reach the Heavenly Plain , BECOME LIKE GOD , and never Dye again . The Greek has it , as Immortal Gods. Which Hierocles interprets thus : Herein shall Good Men resemble the Deity , that they shall be Immortal , like God himself . Thus Reader , have I given thee a very true Account of the Gentile-Divinity , what was the Faith , what the Practice , and what the Prophecy and Hope of many Gentiles through this Light Within , each of which had numerous Followers . Observe , They began where Jews and Christians begin , that is , WITH GOD ; and they end with what they confess to be theirs , namely , a State of Immortality , in which every one is Rewarded according to their Works : Only they are thus far to be Commended before either of them , ( if we consider many of our Times ) That they were more Certain , Plain and True in their Acknowledgment of a Divine Light , Law , or Principle in Man , which obey'd , supply'd then with dayly Wisdom and Strength , and finally led to God : And also were more Just to their Faith , by a Life excelling theirs in Vertue and Self-Denyal . And certainly , in that Great and Terrible Day , when God will judge the Secrets of Men by Jesus Christ , according to Paul's Gospel , will such Pious Gentiles , who knowing God , they Glorified him as God , and Conscientiously did the Things contain'd in his Law , be finally Acquitted and Rewarded . CHAP. XV. That the Heathens had a Sight of the Coming of Christ. That , and not Swearing prove the Sufficiency of the Light. OVer and above what I promised , being rather willing to Err on that End , if yet it be Erring ; I shall briefly observe two things greatly importing our Defence of the Light , and the Satisfaction of our Adversaries , if it be true that they query to be satisfied . 1. That the Testimony of Socrates and Xenocrates about Swearing sufficiently prove to us , that by the Light they had , they saw a State above Swearing , or a Righteousness excelling that of the Legal Jews , which manifestly corresponds with what Christ said ; who above Four Hundred Years after them taught , as what Purely became the Evangelical Righteousness , SWEAR NOT AT ALL. 2. That though their Light did not tell them the express Names Christ should be called by , yet they Fore-saw and Prophesied of his Coming , and how he should come of a Virgin , and what both he was , and the Work he came to do ; which the Names given of the HOLY GHOST did strictly import or signifie . Neither is it the knowing so many Letters , Syllables , or Words that gives true Knowledge , or Salvation , but the Experiencing him to be that which he is , and wherefore he is so denominated : for to that End came He into the World. Christ signifies Anointed ; with respect to that peculiar Manifestation . Jesus a Saviour , for he should save his People from their Sins . Emanuel , which is to say , God with us , &c. that in this Sense he was Prophetically held forth by the 〈◊〉 through that Measure of Light they had : Hear Plato and Virgil. Marcil . Ficinus , who writ the Life of that Great Gentile , tells us among many other things , that , Being very seriously askt by some that visited him , as the last thing they had a Mind to be informed about , HOW LONG MEN SHOULD ATTEND TO HIS WRITINGS ? Of which he seem'd so cheery , Living and Dying in the Belief of what he recommended to the World , He solemnly answer'd ; TILL THAT MORE HOLY AND DIVINE PERSON SHALL APPEAR TO VISIT THE WORLD , WHOM ALL MEN OUGHT TO FOLLOW . At once , both believing such a one to appear , and then forbidding all to prefer that lesser Discovery he had given the World , through the Improvement of his Talent of Light , to that greater Manifestation , which that Divine Person would bring with him into the World ; as if he had said : Mine may help you with respect to that Knowledge which is your Duty in this Generation , and so direct to him that afterwards shall come ; but I am not He , neither do I believe this the most excellent Discovery that can be made : but as the lesser Light may point to the greater , and is at last swallow'd up of it ; so can I only point at him , and when he is come , all I have done must yield to him : for I declare , that all ought to follow him ; for , in following him , they will obtain Eternal Blessedness . Let us now see what Virgil will add to this Matter , as translated in Eusebius . Jam nova Progenies Coelo demittitur alto . Now is from Heaven high Descend'd a new Progeny . And in his Bucolicks : Sicelides Musae paulo majora canamus . Ye Muses , with a lofty Wing , Let us of higher Matters sing . And what be they ? Ultima Cumaei venit jam Carminis aetas . Who lives this Age , will clearly see , Cumea's Vers's accomplisht be . This Cumea ( so called of her City ) was a Sibyl , who liv'd about 600. Years before Christ , and prophesied of him . Virgil writ these Verses about Forty Years before Christ was born . I query if the Jews themselves had so positive a Sence of the Messiah's Coming . But to proceed . Magnus ab integro seclorum nascitur Ordo : Jam redit & Virgo , redeunt Saturnia Regna . Th' Integrity of Times shall now renew again , A VIRGIN also shall bring back old Saturn's Raign . This is a direct Prophecy of the Marvellous Conception , that he should be born of a Virgin , and the Good that would redound to the World thereby , as he further addeth . Tu modo nascenti Puero , quo ferrea primum Desinet , ac toto surget Gens aurea Mundo , Cast a fave Lucina — Hoc duce , si qua manent sceleris vestigia nostri , Irrita perpetua solvent formidine terras . The Birth of that most happy CHILD , by whom The Iron Age shall end , and Golden come , Chast Lucina favour — HE SHALL THE POWERS OF WICKEDNESS DESTROY , AND FREE THE WORLD FROM FEAR AND ALL ANNOY . Yet again : Ipsae lacte domum referent distenta Capellae Ubera : nec magnos metuent armenta Leones . The Goates shall bring their Udders Milk-fill'd home , And th' gentle Flocks great Lyons shall not shun . Yet further : Ipsa tibi blandos fundent cunabula flores , Occidet & Serpens , & fallax herba veneni Occidet : Assyrium vulgo nascetur amomum . Thy Cradle fairest Flowers shall send forth still , Which shall have Power , THE POYSONOUS HEARBS TO KILL , The SERPENT HE SHALL TO DESTRUCTION BRING , Assyrian Amomum shall each where spring . Hinc ubi jam firmata virum te fecerit aetas . When thou shalt attain at length To Years of Manhood and firm Strength . Now let any tell me , if this be not a most Pathetical Account of the Vertue and Power of Christ , and the very End of his coming into the World , as by a Comparison of it with Scriptures in the Margent will plainly appear . Et durae quer●…us sudabunt roscida mella . From the hard Oak there shall Sweet Hony sweat forth and fall . To Conclude , Cedet & ipse mari vector ; nec nautica pinus Mutabit merces : omnis feret omnia tellus . Non rastros patietur humus , non vinea falcem , Nec varios discet mentiri lana colores . Sponte sua sandix pascentes vestiet agnos . O mihi tam longe maneat pars ultima vitae , Spiritus & quantum sat erit , tua dicere facta ! The Sea shall then be quiet , no Ship shall range Abroad her Wares with others to exchange ; Then every Land shall every thing produce , And then to plow the Earth they shall not use : Vines by the Hook shall not be rectify'd , Nor Wool with divers Colours shall be dy'd ; Fair Fleeces voluntary shall proceed , And clothe the Lambs while they do gently feed . O might my Dayes be lengthned , so that I Might sing of thy great Deeds before I dye ! Thus , to say no more , though much more might be said , of this kind , have Heathens by the LIGHT , we have been hitherto defending , not only fore-told Christ's Appearance , but the very Work , for which he did come , and from whence he received those peculiar Names of Christ , Jesus , Emanuel , the Restorer of Breaches , Redeemer , Saviour , &c. So that I hope , our Adversaries will either disprove these Writings , or confess that the Light God gave to the Gentiles , they receiving it , was sufficient , and that by it they had some of them a Sight of Christ , with respect to the great Performance , for which he was so named . I have omitted any mention of those Sibylls , so much believed in by Justin Martyr , Tertullian , Clemens Alexandrinus , and abundance of the Ancients , for David Bloudell's sake , an accurate French-Man , who indeavours to prove the Books that go under their Name , to be an Imposture writ since Christ , by some affected to ●…hristianity , to promote it with the Gentiles ; and therefore no true Prophecyes of his Coming ; though he grants , Sibylls there were of old , and Excellent Things they wrote , but that they were burnt in the Capitol of Rome several Hundred Years before Christ came in the Flesh , and scattered Remnants onely extant , yet among them enough will be afforded , as Virgil from the Cumean already mention'd , whereby to prove the great Fore-sight some of the Gentiles had of Christ's being Conceived by the Holy Ghost , Born of a Virgin , and finally , Coming in the Flesh for the Salvation of the World : And which is more then any before Virgil had done ; the Time when ? namely , WITHIN THAT AGE , which was the Reign of Augustus Caesar , in the beginning of which Virgil wrote , and about the End of which Christ was Born. CHAP. XVI . It is granted that the Jew , and much more the Christian hath the Advantage of the Gentile . Yet that the Gentile had enough Salvation . BUt that I'may provide against both Ignorance and Malice : Let none unworthily infer from hence , that I prefer the State of Gentilism before the State of Christianity ; No , nor yet so much , as that I intend to equal it to that of the Jews , to whom pertained the Adoption , Glory , Covenant , and the giving of the Law , whose were the Fathers , and of whom Christ himself came after the Flesh , who is God ( the only God ) over all , Blessed forever , Amen . For this let all know , that far greater were the Priviledges that both Jew and Christian were blessed with , then those of the Ancient Gentiles . God gave the Jews what the Gentiles had , but he was not pleas'd to endow the Gentiles , with all that he freely bestowed upon the Jews : Yet that he gave them what was sufficient to Godliness is altogether as certain ; For the Difference lay not in the Root of the Matter , but only in some Extraordinary Helps , and several visible Services , Figurative of a further Glory . The Word nigh in the Heart ( of which Moses testified ) was not the only Priviledge of the Jew , but of the Gentile also . The Spirit of God strove as well against the Gentile as the Jewish Man ; And God himself declared their New Moons , Solemn Assemblies , Sabbaths , &c. to be an Abomination ; and bid them , cleanse themselves , and put away the Evil of their Doings ; and that they would make them a new Heart , and a new Spirit : intimating , that though he did attend their Childhood with many Helps that were wanting to other Nations , yet he required Fear , Purity and Righteousness , as the most essential thing of all other ; which , because it was required of the Gentiles as well as Jews , and that many Gentiles believed so , and accordingly lived , unto which , declaring they were inclined by that Spirit , which ( Job sayes ) is in Man , and that Inspiration of the Almighty which gives Understanding ; I cannot in Justice but conclude , they wanted not the Ground-work any more then did the Jews . So that the Sum of what I have been urging is but this ; and thus much it is , That though God was more Beneficent to the Jew ( especially to the Christian ) then the Gentile ; and consequently that as the Jew had those Assistances the Gentile had not , so the Christian-Dispensation is the Perfection of the Divine Light , Life and Immortality , more weakly seen , both by Jew and Gentile ; Yet also , That God did communicate to the Gentiles such a Measure of his Divine Light and Spirit , as diligently adhered to , and faithfully sollowed , was sufficient to their Salvation , from Sin here , and confequently from Wrath to come : And that they themselves did so Believe , Teach , Live and Dye , in perfect Hope and full Assurance of Eternal Recompence , in a State of Immortality . And though I will not be so strict in my Opinion of the best Gentiles , as to deny there might be some Self-Mixtures from Temper , Education , or otherwise ; yet I will also boldly affirm , that as the Light they had was sufficient in it self to their Salvation ( of which their Life and Doctrine are a notable Demonstration ) so they had some of them a glimmering Prospect and bold Belief of as high a State of Purity , Glory and Immortality , as Man's Nature is well capable of attaining to . Let thus much suffice ( whether T. Hicks be pleased , or not pleased ) in Defence of the Universality and Sufficiency of the LIGHT , at least with respect to the Gentiles Divinity ; and a round Answer to the Clamours of our many Adversaries against the Light 's Sufficiency to discover Sin , and convert from it . CHAP. XVII . A great Objection stated ; Answered . The Light both Law and Gospel , not in the same Discovery ; but in it self . A Way to reconcile the seeming Difference about it . The Light still defended . BUt because I am yet to expect Doubters about the Light , who rather strive how to oppose it by their Notions , then believe and obey it . I will suppose that some may ( as indeed doth T. Hicks , J. G. and almost all who have writ against us ) yet object : Certainly this Light Within can be at most but the Law in the Conscience , answering to the First Covenant ; For here is scarce any mention made of Christ in this long Discourse ; and if this Light were Christ , as is affirmed by you Quakers , then how comes it , that he was not so called of Old by the Jews and Greeks ? and why typified out to come , when he was come before , and whilst typified ? And further , In what Sense can he be understood to bear our Iniquities , and Men and Women to be saved by his Blood , if this Light be the Saviour , Messiah , Christ , &c. as you believe , and endeavour to maintain now in the World ? This Objection , I suppose , the Reader will allow to be the most weighty made against our Principle , and that I have dealt more fairly by our Adversaries ( especially by that Unjust and Malicious Man T. Hicks ) then they have dealt with us in his abusive and impertinent Dialogue ; since I have here laid down the Strength of their Objection , and the whole Scope and Intendment of his 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , & 12. pages against the Light. To all which I thus answer , in the Fear of God & Spirit of Moderation . The Objection consists mainly of these Four Parts ; The First , relating to the Light 's being but the Law , not the Gospel . The Second , to the Light 's never being called Christ by Jews or Greeks . The Third , to Christ's being typified , and yet in Being at the same time . The Fourth , to Christ's Blood , the Bearing our Sins , and which way this could be appropriated to the Light , and not do Injury to the Holy Manhood . First then , I shall answer to that Part of the Objection which concerns the Light 's being but , or no more then the Law. I do thus far agree , That the Light is the Law ; but that it is not therefore in any sense the Gospel , I also deny , yet not in that Capacity wherein it is the Law ; for as in that state it cannot justifie , so it would be to say , it is the Law , and it is not the Law. I say then , that the Light may be both , in reference to a two-fold Manifestation . Where there is no Law there is no Transgression . It might as well have been said ( since they themselves confess it to be the Law ) That where there is no Light , there is no Transgression ; and the rather , because whatever is reproved , or Sinful , is made manifest by the Light ; therefore , since all have transgrest , all have Light , and ever had : In this State then it is a Law , which justifies none ; for whoever is in that which is reproveable , is under Condemnation from the Law , or the Reproving Act of the Light. But again , Such as by unfeigned Repentance come to turn unto the Light , they are herein justified in a two-fold Sense ( and I so speak for the sake of the Simple , beguiled by a wrong Apprehension of the Word ) First , In that God acquits for his Name 's sake , who is Merciful , Pardoning Iniquity , Transgression and Sin , all that Repent with Unfeigned Repentance . Secondly , In that he accepts upon the Renewal and Conti●…uance of the Creature 's humble and sincere Obedience . Neither are such properly come to the compleat Sonship ; they are but on their Journey , they must give good Proof of their Fidelity , Diligence and Loyalty to God , as Servants , before there be a Receiving of them into that excellent State of Sorship which never goes out of the Father's House 〈◊〉 . This is clearly distinguisht , and weightily exprest by the Apostle Paul to the Galatians , The Heir , sayes he , whilst 〈◊〉 Age , differs not from a Servant , but is under Tutors until the time ●…pointed of the Father ; even so we , when we were Children were in Bo●…dage , under the Elements of the World : therefore the Seed came , that by Faith in it the Adoption of Sons might be known . This is the Perfection of the Brightness of the Light , which is all along still the same in It self , though not the same to the Creature . The outward Sun is the Cause of the early Dawnings , and is at that very time in it self the same Glorious Body of Light , as when in the Meridian ; but if Men either through Natural Weakness , or the many Fogs and Mists of Tradition , Education , Ignorance or Prejudice suffer an Eclipse , they must not blame the Light , but themselves . He that follows the Light , which was ever the Just Man's Path , shall meet with Blessedness at the End of his Travels ; But such as let the World of Wickedness get between , are over-taken with Night . Abraham saw Christ's Day ; What Day ? The Dispensation of Sonship , as Heir of all things , the Day of perfect Restitution ; which he could never have done , had he not had Light , by which to have seen it . So several of those Holy Ancients obtain'd a Degree above many , and arriv'd at a Growth , yea , the Benefit and Enjoyment of a Dispensation , that was not general , through the Weakness of the Age : Such really saw beyond the Offerings , Types , Figures and Shaddows , to a State more Inward , Spiritual and Substantial , by taking good heed to the Heavenly Light. And this was the End of all External Administrations , to drive the Creature in , & point out unto it some more hidden Mystery that Man's Wandering from God had caus'd him to neglect ; yet still was Christ , the Word . God , a saving Light in that State. And the Light of the Law was as a School-Master , that led such as diligently obeyed it , to that more excellent Discovery of the same Light , which is now called the Gospel , or Glad-tidings , as certainly it was and is , after so Black and Cold a Season , as hath tediously overcast the Heavens , to have that Sun of Righteousness appear in that Body , prepared and anointed for that Purpose , in a transcendent Manner to all former Manifestations of Himself . Thus it was that such as had liv'd up most faithfully to the Law of God , or Light of that Dispensation , gladly received Christ , believed in him , became his Followers , and the Companions of his Sufferings ; so that he , who was the Light of the Law , is also the Light of the Gospel , though not in one and the same Degree of Discovery , as the Light is not one in Condemning and Justifying , though it be one in it self ; nor in the Degree and Growth of little Children , young Men and Fathers , yet one Pure , Eternal , Unalterable Light of Life and Righteousness in it self . If therefore it doth the Office of the Law in any , to be sure such one is yet under a State of Condemnation for Evil , and he is not yet come to know the fulfilling of the Law , as becometh every Follower of Christ , yea , every one that would come to Christ. Christ indeed fulfils the Law for us ; but how ? The Light in us , as we are subject to it , and led by it , administers an Holy Power , by which we are enabled to do that which is Good and Acceptable in the Sight of the Lord ; and so obeying the Light , we fulfil the Law : Thus he works his Works in us and for us . And so far was Christ from Dis-ingaging his Followers from an indispensible Necessity of keeping the Law , as outwardly ingraven on Stones , that he set them a far harder Task , by how much it is more easie to restrain from Acting then Thinking . Thou shalt not Commit Adultery , saith that Dispensation of Moses ; Whosoever looks on a Woman , to lust after her , hath committed Adultery already with her in his Heart , saith that more Excellent Dispensation of Christ. Certainly then those Men , who fancy themselves upon the easie Terms of being excluded the Fulfilling of the Law , or Performing good Works , as a Condition to Justification , must basely abuse themselves , and dangerously adventure the Well-being of their own Souls . In short , He was the True Light , who said , He that looks upon a Woman to lust after her , has committed Adultery with her already in his Heart : But so was he also that said of old by Moses , Thou shalt not commit Adultery ; Therefore should we conclude two Lights , and not rather two several Manifestations , or gradual Discoveries of the self-same Eternal Light ? To conclude , The Law ( as I may say ) is the Gospel begun , and the Gospel is the Law finished ; He that would be justified must first be condemned , and who would be healed , must first be wounded : The Law is as the Sword , the Gospel as Balm ; The one Duty , the other Love. And that which alone is needful to attain unto the highest Discovery , is , to be humbly subject , and constantly obedient to the lowest Appearance of it : The faithful Servant becomes a Son by Adoption . Wouldst thou know the Word a Reconciler , thou must first witness it an Hammer , Sword , Fire , &c. The Way to arrive at Evangelical Righteousness , is first to perform the Righteousness of the Law : By Law , I mean not that of Ceremonies , or the External Order of the Jews ; but that Moral & Eternal Law , which is said to have come by Moses , and is accomplisht by Christ. And there is great Hopes , that who Conscientiously keeps the Beginning , will compass the End. Such as have Conquer'd bad Doing , if they be faithful in what they have received of God's Light and Spirit it will inable them against bad Saying , till at last they overcome evil Thinking too ; and witness that Scripture fulfilled ; Judgment ( the Law ) is brought forth into Victory ( the Gospel ) He that follows me ( the Light of the World that inlightens all Men coming into the World ) shall not abide in Darkness , but shall have the Light of Life . I make not this Distinction of Law and Gospel to distinguish in Kind , but Degree , and for the sake of the Weak accustomed to it . And if the Son make you free , then are you free indeed : For as it is a Condemner it may be called the Light that brings Death , in that it slays by the Brightness of it's coming into the Conscience , the transgressing Nature ; like unto that Expression the Day of the Lord is a Day of Darkness , because of the Judgments and Terrors of the Lord for Sin ; But to the Obedient it is the Light of Life . Thus is Christ as the Word-God , and Light of the World through every Dispensation , ONE in himself , though to Mankind he has variously appeared , not by Differing Lights , but Manifestations only , of one and the same Eternal Light of Life and Righteousness . CHAP. XVIII . The Second Part of the Objection , that Christ was not anciently called the Light ; Answered . And the Contrary proved from Scripture and Reason . TO the Second Part of the Objection , If the Light in every Man were Christ , how comes it that the Jews and Greeks never called it so ? I answer , We do not say , that the Light in every Man is Christ , but of Christ ; He is that Fulness from whence all receive a Measure of Divine Light and Knowledge ; but not that every Individual has the whole or compleat Christ in him ; such an Absurdity never fell from us , nor our Doctrine , though the Malice of our Adversaries hath charged it upon both . But as the External Sun darts its Light upon the Organ of the Eye of the Body , by which it conveyes true Discerning to act , how , in and about Visibles ; so doth the Internal Sun of Righteousness shine upon the Eye of the Soul , giving it the Knowledge of those invisible Things , which properly relate to the Nature of the Soul ; So that we are the less oblieged to give a Reason , why others called not the Light in Man , Christ , since we renounce all Share in such Belief our selves : Which is Answer enough to T. H's dis-ingenuous Inference , that because G. W. affirmed , the Light , with which Mankind was inlightned , was God , therefore sayes T. H. Every Man his whole God in him , or to that Purpose , p. 5 , 6. Yet thus far I will tell those Men , that Christ was called Light , before ever he was in the World , though not before he was Christ. I will give him for a Light to lighten the Gentiles , &c. Now if any will say , that this Light was not Christ , let them tell us so in plain words : But if it will be allowed , then T. Hicks had best ask , why the Prophet by the Holy Ghost should call Christ , Light , even as soon , if not before he was called Christ ; and why in that very State , in which he was called Christ , he should be called Light. Certain it is then , that by Him , the Light , we are to understand Christ , which is one and the same thing , as if he had said , I will give Christ for a Light to enlighten the Gentiles ; or , who is the Christ , is the Light ; or , the Light is Christ : So that it will follow , that the Gentiles were inlightened by Christ , which is the Whole of what we understand by our Assertion , as to the Light in Man. Again , John expresly calls that Light with which every Man is inlightned , the Word ; and the Word is said to have taken Flesh : If then he that took Flesh was Christ , and consequently that Body , Christ's Body only , as none , I think , will dare deny , but Muggleton , and his Credulous Followers , it will follow , That Christ , who took , or appeared in that prepared Body , is the Light , with which every Man is inlightned . Further , Christ himself sayes , I am the Light of the World ; which is as much as if he had said , I have inlightned the World : therefore the Light , which shines in the Hearts of Mankind is Christ , though , not every particular Illumination the entire Christ ; for so there would be as many Christs , which were Absurd and Blasphemous . But Lastly the Apostle himself calls him Christ before his Coming in the Flesh ; or that Christ was Christ before his Appearance in that Body at Jerusalem , which clears that Point in Controversie : for the Stress of T. Hicks's Objection , as to this Particular , lies here , Christ , as Christ , was not before he took Flesh ; therefore though I should grant ( might he say , and he doth say as much ) that as the Word-God all are inlightened by him , yet , sayes he , not as he is Christ before that visible Appearance : One would think he were a very Socinian by his Arguing ; not that I write so in Slight , Abuse or Reflection ; but if Christ was not before , then the Manhood , that was taken in time , must be the Christ ; and what should materially hinder their Conjunction I know not ? But I would fain know his Reason for it , if it be Lawful to expect what I fear he has not to give ; however , if he darest , he would give you his Interest in lieu of a Reason for his so holding , but that I shall do for him , and with Impartial Minds it will be a Reason against him . The Dilemma in short is this , If he denies Christ to have been Christ before that Coming , he thwarts as plain a Text as the Scriptures have ; and if he should allow of it , his whole Fabrick ( now a Fortification , he thinks ) would fall like a rotten House about his Ears . Well , but I will tell him , and all concern'd , for his base Opposition , That since Christ , as the Word-God , hath illuminated all Men antecedent to his Coming in the Flesh , as confesses T.H. J.G. J.F. and many more of them , & that the Apostle says , that the Word was Christ , or Christ was before he came in the Flesh ; for Christ was in the Wilderness a Rock to Israel , unless Christ and the Word are two distinct Beings , or that there be two distinct Christs : Christ was that Light , with which Mankind was illuminated , or that Light , Mankind was inlightned with , was the very Christ , and consequently , the Light has been called both expresly and implicitly Christ before that visible Appearance at Jerusalem . Nor is the Allegation of that Scripture pertinent to the Matter in hand ( viz. ) Which none of the Princes of this World knew , &c. brought by T. H. for that was spoken in reference to the Wisdom which had been hid , and not the meer Manhood of Christ ; But suppose it had deeply concern'd it , we have this to say , that such as rejected , much more those that crucified him in his outward Appearance , had first despised and slain him within , They were of those who Rebel against the Light , and Love not the Wayes thereof . And I affirm against all Opposers , that it was by that Sight the Light within gave to Simeon , Peter , Nathanael , and all others , who believed in him , that they Confessed him , and Suffered for him ; such as had not so Out-sinned their Day , Defiled their Conscience , Clouded their Understandings , and Hardned their Hearts , as others by Wicked Works had done ; but through the Light of the Lord , had in good measure kept their Consciences void of Offence , they received and imbraced him . The Light knew its own ; The Lesser led to the Greater , and the Greater Light as naturally attracted the Lesser , as we may see Fire do every day . To conclude this Particular , let me add , that they were not the Princes of this World that put him outwardly to Death ; for it came by the Envious Accusations and most Inveterate Suggestions of the Jews ( a Broken Conquered People ) to Pilate , but Governour of a Province ; therefore , since I believe what the Apostle saith to be true , I have rather Reason to infer , that it was meant of Christ Mystically , then of that Visible Body . However it be , that part of our Adversaries Objection about the Light 's not being call'd Christ , antecedent to his Coming in the Flesh , can be of no Weight to the Matter under Debate , since we have so evidently made the Contrary appear . CHAP. XIX . The Third Part of the Objection ; If Christ was enjoyed under the Law , as he was , if the Light be Christ ; why was he Typified ? Is proved of no Force . The Type and Anti-type in some Respects may be at one and the same time ; this is proved by 〈◊〉 of Scripture . Our Adversaries Oppostion and Cavil Weak and Insuccessful . THe Third Part of the Objection , and what seems at first sight to carry something of moment against us , is this ; If the Light Within be Christ , and the Jews and Gentiles had it from the beginning of the World , how can Christ be said to be typified out , as not come , and Prophesied of to come , when by your own Principle he has been alwayes come ? I answer , This part of the Objection is in some respect built upon the same Mistake as was the second , namely , that the Light within is intirely Christ ; concerning which I have plainly and truly exprest my self before ; I will therefore faithfully state the Question for them thus : Well , but still you say , Christ inlightned Jews and Gentiles before that visible Coming ; if so , then was he come by your own Principle , whilst his very Coming was typified out , and Prophesied of : Doth not this seem a Contradiction ? But to this I say , that the supposed Contradiction ariseth from the Mistake of the Dispensations ; for it takes for granted , that there was no Difference in the Degree of Illumination before , and at the Coming of Christ after that visible Manner into the World , which all must needs confess : For as I would be understood , when I call the Light before , and after Christ's Coming in the Flesh , Light , to mean but one and the self-same Light in Nature ; So let none apprehend , that we make not a Difference by the Acknowledgment of a more eminent Manifestation of the same Light. What follows then ? Why thus much most clearly , That under the Enjoyment of the Lesser Manifestation of Light , suited to the then Childish State of the Jews , God was pleased to allure them after an Expectation of , at least a Belief in higher things , by Types and Prophecyes of that far more Excellent and Exceeding Glorious Dispensation of the Light and Love of God in after Ages . The End of God's giving the Israelites that outward Prophet and Leader Moses was , to bring to the Inward , which though they through Carnality and Weakness were not then sensible of him , so as to stay their Minds upon him , yet Moses prophesied of him ; and all the External Dealings have been with respect to bring to the Seed within , which is able to bruise the Serpent's Head , and did so in some measure through all Ages . So that in good Reason and Truth may we assert , Christ the Light , was the Rock that follow'd Israel in the Wilderness ( who is the Rock of Ages , and Foundation of all Generations , who ever enlightned all Mankind , the same yesterday , to day , and forever ) yet a greater Manifestation of that Divine Light might be typically preacht forth under the Enjoyment of the Lesser : And that we herein are not without the Suffrage of the Scriptures to our Defence , I would fain know of T. Hicks , or who else that is concerned against us , If notwithstanding all those outward Washings of those Times , God did not frequently press the very Substance it self , namely , a Clean Heart and a New Spirit ; accounting all short thereof but as the Cutting off a Dog's Neck ? And whether Christ himself did not with his own Hands give the Bread and the Wine to his Disciples , and yet bid them do it till he came ? Whence it is easie to observe , that unless Tho. Hicks , and the rest of those Contenders , say with the Papists , The Bread and Wine are very Christ ( and so make Christ giving Christ , thereby destroying the Nature of a Sacrament ; and instead of doing it till he come , that he should come when-ever they do receive it ( which Ignorance I will not suppose him or them guilty of ) I say , unless then that they were of one Mind with the Romanists in the Matter of the Supper , it must be granted to us , that Christ present gave them a Figure of Christ to come ; therefore to figure out Christ to come , destroyes not Christ's being come ; especially with our most necessary Distinction of the lesser Manifestation from the greater , which nevertheless divides not the Light , but that remains in it self one Pure , Eternal Being of Light , and Sun of Righteousness through every Dispensation . This , that Passage I have already observed from the Apostle Paul , in Answer to the second part of the Objection plainly clears to us ; For if Christ typified out was their Rock , or the Rock of that Age , even when the Brazen Serpent the Type was in being , I cannot see , but the Type and the Thing typified might be at one and the same time ; not as to Degree , but Nature ; for so I would be understood . Before I conclude take this notable Saying of Christ to the Jews , and what may be collected from it to our Purpose ; BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS I AM — ABRAHAM SAW MY DAY , AND REJOYCED — which affords us briefly thus much : That though he was not so visibly come , yet it was the very same HE that came about One Thousand Six Hundred Years ago , who was with the Fathers of Old ; and that Abraham , who lived One Thousand Nine Hundred Years before that outward Appearance , saw him , and his Day . If this be not the Import of the Place , I know none ; For the Jews not believing him to be the Messiah , thought it high Presumption sor him to compare with Abraham ; Art thou Greater then our Father Abraham , who is dead , and the Prophets are dead ? Whom makest thou thy self ? said that Unbelieving People ; Unto which he answered ( that he might prove himself to be the true Messiah , the Christ of God ) ABRAHAM SAW MY DAY , and rejoyced : They still harping upon that Visible Body , not Thirty Three Years old , replyed , Thou art not yet Fifty , and hast thou seen Abraham ? Taking that to be the Messiah , the Christ of God , and Saviour of the World he meant , which they saw with their Carnal Eyes . To which he rejoyn'd with a Verily , verily I say unto you , before Abraham was I am ; then took they up Stones to cast at him , &c. By all which it is most clear , that unless our Adversaries will deny him that so spoak ( which yet T. Hicks's Anti-scriptural Opinion doth imply ) to be Christ , who singled and distinguisht himself , as the Messiah , the Christ of God , and Saviour of the World from that Visible Body , not Fifty Years old indeed ; both Christ that then spoak must needs have been long before Abraham's Time ; and that such Holy Ancients were not without a Sight and Prospect of him , and the Day of his Glorious Appearance , or that most Signal Manifestation of himself in that Body prepared for that Great and Holy Purpose ; witness the exceeding Clear and Heavenly Prophecyes , that were as so many Fore-runners , or Introducers of the Evangelical State. And this is unquestionably confirm'd unto us by that known and very weighty Expression of the Apostle Paul to the Romans : Whose are the Fathers , and of whom as concerning the Flesh Christ came , who is over all , God blessed for ever , Amen . Since here both Christ is distinguisht from the Body he took and made one with that God , who is over all , blessed for ever , Amen ; As much as to say , of whose Flesh Christ took , therefore Christ was before he took it ; or his taking it did not constitute him Christ , which Christ is God ; And if God ( which cannot be said of meer Flesh or any Corporal Lineage ) then must he have been from all Everlasting . To conclude , As Abraham Outward and Natural was the great Father of the Jews Outward and Natural , whose Seed God promis'd to bless with Earthly Blessings as Canaan , &c. & that they were figurative of the one Seed Christ , and such as he should beget unto a lively Hope through the Power of his Spiritual Resurrection , it will consequently follow , that this Seed must be Inward and Spiritual ; since one outward thing cannot be the proper Figure or Representation of an other : Nor is it the Way of holy Scripture so to teach us ; The Outward Lamb shows forth the Inward Lamb ; The Jew Outward , the Jew Inward . As God attended the one with many singular outward Mercies ( to say no more ) above other Nations ; So the Jew in Spirit doth he benefit above all other People I have these two short Arguments to prove , what I believe and assert as to the Spirituallity of the True Seed ; and a clearer Overthrow it is to the Opinion of our Adversaries to the True Christ. First , Every thing begets its like ; What is simply Natural produces not a Spiritual Being ; Material Things bring not forth Things that are Immaterial . Now because the Nature , or Image , begotten in the Hearts of True Believers , is Spiritual , it will follow , that the Seed which so begets , and brings forth that Birth , must be the same in Nature with that which is begotten , therefore Spiritual ; then Christ's Body , or , what he had from the Virgin , strictly considered as such , was not the Seed . Secondly , it is clear from hence ; The Serpent is a Spirit : Now nothing can bruise the Head of the Serpent , but something that is also Internal and Spiritual , as the Serpent is ; But if that Body of Christ were the Seed , then could he not bruise the Serpent's Head in all , because the Body of Christ is not so much as in any one , and consequently the Seed of the Promise is an Holy and Spiritual Principle of Light , Life , and Power , that being receiv'd into the Heart bruiseth the Serpents Head : And because the Seed , which cannot be that Body , is Christ , as testify the Scriptures , the Seed is one , and that Seed Christ , and Christ God over all , blessed forever , we do conclude , and that most truly , that Christ was , and is the Divine Word of Light and Life , that was in the beginning with God , and was , and is God over all , blessed for ever . And this may yet more evidently appear , let it but be seriously weigh'd , that before ever that visible Appearance , the Seed bruised in good measure the Serpent's Head in the Holy Men and Women of all Generations , otherwise they had not been Holy , but Serpentine and Wicked ; And if the Seed , was before , and that Seed be Christ ; because there is but One Christ , as well as but One only Seed , it doth clearly follow , that Christ was Christ before that Outward Appearance ; and consequently , it could but be a more Excellent and free Manifestation of his Truth , Righteousness , Salvation , Wisdom , Power , Glory and Dominion , as indeed it was . For notwithstanding that this Heavenly Seed was in some measure known , and what was wrought of Inward Deliverance in that Day , was by and through the Power and Vertue of it , as the Minds of People were retired to that Word of God nigh in the Heart to cleanse and redeem ; And though particular Persons might arrive at great Attainments , even to a Beholding the Day of the Seeds compleat Redemption , and Conquest over all it's Oppressors ( when what was but in the Condition of a Seed , or New-born Child , should become the only Son , the Wonderfull Counsellor , the Mighty God , the Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace , of the Increase of whose Government there should be no End , as speaks the Prophet ) Yet it is granted , through that good Understanding the Lord has given us in these weighty Things , that the Generallity were but Weak , Dark and Imbondaged , as saith the Apostle , under Carnal and Beggarly Elements , not clearly seeing through those outward Services , which , if I may so speak , God held them in hand with , condescending to their Weakness , that he might both keep them from gadding after the Pompous Invention , and Idolatrous Worship of other Nations , and point out unto them under their great Carnality that more Hidden Glory and Spiritual Dispensation , which should-afterwards be revealed , to wit , The Compleat Redemption of the Soul , and Raign of the Holy Seed , from the Child born , and the Son given , to the Wonderful Counsellor , the Mighty God , the Everlasting Father , and Prince of Peace , of the Increase of whose Government there shall be no End. So that then we ought , and we do by absolute Force of Truth conclude ( 1. ) That the Seed , which Seed is Christ , was in all Ages with Abraham , with the Israelites , with the Prophets , Therefore he was as well before he came in that prepared Body , as then and since . ( 2. ) Yet it is confest , That He was not so clearly revealed , perfectly brought forth , and generally known before his so Coming as then and since , but more darkly figured out by Types and Shaddowy Services ; which though they Cleans'd not , Sav'd not , Redeem'd not , yet did show forth a more Hidden and Spiritual Substance , that was able to Cleanse , Save and Redeem , and did all that received it , and were truly subject to it . ( 3. ) That it therefore is not at all Absurd , that the more Excellent Manifestation of Truth should he Typified and Prophesied of , under the Enjoyment of the Lesser , since the Reason of the Thing , and the Testimonies of the Scripture are so express for it , which ends our Answer to this Particular . CHAP. XX. The Fourth Part of the Objection stated and considered . Christ's Death and Sufferings confessed to , and respected ; they were beneficial . The Light of Christ within is the Efficient Cause to Salvation . HAving thus considered the Third Part of this great Objection , I am now come to what chiefly stumbles People , with respect to the Light within , at least , as I apprehend ; and that is this Fourth and Last Particular , viz. But if the Light in every Man be Christ , how doth it bear our Sins , and are our Iniquities laid upon it ? and how can we be said to be Justified , Redeemed or Saved by its Blood , since all these things are spoken by the Holy Pen-men of the Man Christ , or Jesus born at Nazareth ? Surely you wholy invalidate his Life , Death , Resurrection , Ascension and Mediation by this Belief in the Light. This I take to be the very Stress of the Matter , collected out of the most Forceable Writings of our Adversaries ; To which I Answer , and let him that reads understand . It must be considered in this Last Part of the Objection , how those Questions can be applicable to the Light , and yet be reconciliable with those Scriptures that seem to attribute all to his Bodily Sufferings . I hope to make appear , that as we exalt the First , so we dare not by any means to slight the Last . The Light , or rather He that is Light in Man ( for I have alwayes desired so to be understood : Light being a Metaphor or word taken from the outward Day , and chiefly so term'd , because of Man's Darkness , which is thereby discovered ) hath been as a Lamb slain since the Foundation of the World ; that is , the World had not been long created , before the good Order of it , and every thing therein , being envied by the Fallen Angels , that Spirit of Iniquity betrayed Man of his Innocency ; and Sin by Disobedience prevailing , the Light or Principle of Life , under whose Holy Leadings Man was placed , became Resisted , Grieved , and as it were Slain ( which word Slain is also Metaphorical ) that is to say , the Innocent Pure Life was as Wounded unto Death through Man's Disobedience and Lamb-like Image , in which Adam was created , by him through Rebellion lost : Thus that Holy Principle , which God placed in the Heart of Adam , in which was true Light , Life and Power , bore the Sin , was prest under it , as a Cart under Sheaves , grieved exceedingly , and as it were quencht with Iniquity . This hath been the Condition of that Precious and Elect Seed , Spirit , Light , Life , Truth ( or whatever Name equivalent any may please to give it ) ever since that first Rebellion , to this very Day : And as in Wicked Men God's Holy Light and Spirit , or that Principle which is so called , hath been deeply Wounded , yea , as one Slain ; so in Good Men , that have had a Sence of the World's Abomination , hath it also born many Burdens and Weights ; for the Light and Life is One in All. And those who have been reformed by it , and joyned to it , have been as One Spirit , and have not been without their Share of their Lord 's heavy Sufferings , from the Ungodly World , which was as well a filling up of Christ's Sufferings that were before his Outward Coming , as what to this Generation are behind . And as at any time Disobedient Men have harkened to the still Voice of the WORD ( that Messenger of God ) in their Hearts , to be affected and convinced by it , as it brings Reproof for Sin , which is but a Fatherly Chastizement ; ●…o upon true Brokenness of Soul , and Contrition of Spirit , that very same Principle and Word of Life in Man , has mediated and attoned , and God has been propitious , lifting up the Light of his Countenance , and replenishing such humble 〈◊〉 with Divine Consolations . So that still the same Christ , Word-God , who has enlightned all Men , by Sin is grieved , bearing the Iniquities of such as so sin , and reject his Benefits : but as any hear his Knocks and let him in , he first Wounds , and then Heals ; afterwards he attones , mediates , and re-instates in the holy Image . Behold this is the State of Restitution ! And this in some Measure was witnessed by the Holy Patriarchs , Prophets and Servants of God in old time , to whom Christ was substantially the same Saviour , and Seed bruising the Serpent's Head , that he is now to us , what Difference s●…ever there may be in Point o●… Manifestation . But notwithstanding the same Light and Life , with that which afterwards clothed it it self with that outward Body , did in measure inwardly appear for the Salvation of the Souls of Men ; yet , as have often said , never did that Li●…●…eminently put ●…orth it self for that End , as in that 〈◊〉 and prepared Body ; so that what he then suffered and did in that transcendent Manisestation , may by way of Eminency assume the whole Work unto it self , that he ever did before , or might do afterwards . For doubtless that very Light , Life and Power , which dwelt in that Flesh●…y Tabernacle , eminently was the Convincer , Condemner , Saviour and Redeemer ; yet not only as confined to that Body , but as revealed in the Hearts of Men , as he was in Paul , who not consulting with Flesh and Blood against the Lord of Glory willingly receive him in , to bind the strong Man , spoil his Goods , and cast him out , that He might Reign . And that the Divine Life , Light , Spirit , Nature of Principle , which resided in that Body was the efficient Cause of Salvation , observe the Title that is given from the great Work he was to do , namely , To save his People from their Sins ; there is not one Word of Wrath , but consequentially : Therefore , since that Sin is in the Heart and Conscience of Mankind , nothing but a Divine Light , Spirit or Power can reach Immaculation into those inward Parts ; and consequently that must be the Redeemer and Saviour . But indeed , those who have a Mind to Naturalize that strange Figure into the Language of the Holy Truth ; I mean , to understand that to be saved , is to be saved from Wrath , and not from Sin ( whose assured Wages is Wrath ) may have some Interest , though no Reason for their implacable Enmity against an Inherent Holiness . But I farther confess , that his Righteous Life , with respect to its Appearance in that Body , was grieved by Sin , & that the Weight of the Iniquity of the whole World , with the Concernment of its Eternal Well-being , lay hard upon him , nor was his Manhood Insensible of it : Under the Load of this did He travel , he alone trode the Wine-Press ; that is , All others were then Insensible of that Eternal Wrath , which would be the Portion of Impenitent Persons , as well as that it was his great Care , and deep Travel , that the Holy , yet Oppressed Seed might arise over the Pressures of Iniquity in the Hearts of Men , to bruise the Serpent's Head in all ; And as outwardly he gave his outward Life for the World , so he might inwardly shed abroad in their Souls the Blood of God , that is , The Holy Purifying Life and Virtue , which is in him as the Word-God , and as which , he is the Life of the World. This was it which gave that visible Part the Understanding it had , which fitted it for so great an Embassy , by whose Power alone it Fasted , Prayed , Preacht , Cast-out Devils , Wrought Miracles , Lived that most Unblemisht Life , Patiently Suffered Death , was Raised for an Holy Confirmation , maugre all the Military Opposition of the Jews ; and this it was which accompanied the Ministry of his Followers , rendring it Efficacious to Conviction and Conversion : So that the Invisible , Spiritual and Divine Life , Principle or Nature , was the Root and Fountain of all which is sometimes asscribed in Scripture to the Body , by that Common Figure , or Way of Speaking amongst Men , the Thing containing , which was the Body for the Thing contained , which was the Eternal Power , Wisdom , Life , &c. Not that we would irreverently rob the Holy Body of whatsoever Acknowledgement is justly due , nor yet separate that God joyned ; though I confess with holy Fear , I dare not attribute to an External prepared Being , which is the Natural , Proper and Only Work of the Divine Light and Life to operate and effect : But certainly , if some Men in Scripture are intituled Saviours because of the Contribution of their Tryals , Travels and Labours towards the Salvation of Man-kind , of much more Right is that Honour ascribable to him who had the Spirit without Measure ; For I do freely acknowledge it to have been in some sense a Co-worker and Partner with the Divine Life in many of its Tryals , Weights , Sufferings and Travels for Man-kind : Yet as it was the Divine Power in them that made them serviceable in that great Work , so was it the Divine Power in him which made that what it was , and therefore ought we chiefly to appropriate the Salvation to Christ , as the Word-God , and to the Holy Manhood not any otherwise then Instrumentally , or by the same Divine Power in and through it ; I mean , as it was a Chosen Instrument or Vessel , in and by which God declared the Blessed Glad-Tidings of Love , and his Message of Reconciliation to the World , in which he gave the most Heavenly Example of Purity , and through whose whole Life , Doctrine and Death did shine forth the clearest Evidences of Truth , Goodness , Mercy , Patience , deep Travel for the World , Self-Denyal , Holiness and Triumphant Matyrdom . No Wonder then , if he be called a Saviour , who not only came on an Embassy of Salvation , and when come , did draw many after him , who were struck with the Authority of his Sayings , when he allow'd for a time to have their Eyes and Hearts upon him , as in that State present with them ; But afterwards , he let his Disciples know , of how much Benefit it would be to them , that he should leave them ; How ? Forever : In all Capacities ? No ; but as with respect to his outward Appearance , that being scattered in that Day to their own Measure of Light , Pon er and Life , they might know him NO MORE AFTER THE FLESH , but witness him come into their Hearts a Comforter , who could not leave his true-hearted Disciples comfortless . He that is with you shall be in you . To be brief , that I may yet again express our reverent Sense of Christ's Manifestation , so far as relates to that Holy Thing that should be born of Mary ; take these few particulars in my next Chapter . CHAP. XXI . A Confession in particular to Christ's Redemption , Remission , Justification and Salvation . I. WE do confess , that though the Eternal Power , Life and Light which inhabited that Holy Person , which was born at Nazareth , was & is chiefly & eminently the Saviour ( for there is no Saviour besides me saith God yet that it was Instrumentally a Saviour , as prepared and chose●… o●… the Work which Christ had then to do i●… it , which was actually to the Salvation of some , and intentionally of the whole World then , and in Ages to come ; suitable to that Scripture , Lo , in the Volumn of the Book it is written , I come to do thy Will ( O God ) a Body hast thou prepared me , &c. II. That as there was a Necessity that one should dye for the People , so whoever then or since believed in Him , had and have a Seal or Confirmation of the Remission of their Sins in his Blood , and that Blood , alluding to the Custom or the Jewish Sacrifices , shall be an utter Blotting out of former iniquates , carrying them as into a Land of Forgetfulness . This grand Assurance of Remission ( from the Wrath due upon the Score or former Offences ) do all receive in the Ratifying Blood of Christ , who Repenting of their Sins , believe and obey the Holy Light with which he hath Illuminated them . For Paul's being turned from Darkness to the Light in his Heart , was one with his believing in the Son of God revealed in his Heart . III. This more glorious Appearance ended that less glorious Service of the Jews ; the Figures being compleated , the Shadows they fell . He in that Body preacht , and lived beyond those Beggarly Elements ; He drew Religion more Inward , even into the Secret of the Heart , and made it to consist in an higher State o●… Righteousness , called Evangelical , and at once became both the Auth●…ro 〈◊〉 Heavenly Dispensation , and therein an Example to all , as well Jews and Gentiles ; sealing such a Common and General Religion to both with his Blood , as would forever end the Difference and slay the Enmity , that they might be all one in Christ. Thus did he end the Jews External Services , and overturn the Gentiles Idolatries by his one most pure and Spiritual Offering and Worship . IV. It plainly preaches thus much to us , That as Him , whose Body the Jews outwardly slew , we by Wicked Works have crucified in the Streets of Sodom and Egypt , spiritually so called , our polluted Hearts and Consciences . So , unless we come to know the Benefit of the Inward Life , answering to , and expressed by that Outward Life he gave for the World , it will avail little ; For so it is , and very Marvelous in our Eyes , that the Life of the Crucified can only save those who may well be reputed the Crucifiers . O Mystery ! And because those that did not actually slay him Outwardly , have slain him Inwardly , therefore must every such one really know that Life Inwardly raised & shed abroad for Sanctification and Redemption . O how great was his Love ! Truly larger then Man's Cruelty ; who whilst he dyed by Wicked Men , he would Dye for them ; and when dead , they could not hinder him from Rising to do them good , who had done their worst for his Destruction , thereby shewing Mercy to those , who shewed they had no Mercy for themselves . O Jerusalem , Jerusalem ! how often would I have gathered thee , and thou wouldest not , & c ? V. That Expression of his is greatly worth our Notice , I lay down my Life for the World. All he did was for the Good of the World , and particularly the Laying down of his Life , that he might both express his Love and our Duty . Had he not desired Man's Salvation , and for that purpose prepared a Body , in which to visit him , and by his daily Labours among Men to further their Eternal Happiness the Jew had never been able to put him to Death : But being come , and when come , so hardly used , herein did he recommend his great Love to us , that besides the Inward Weights of Sin he bore with his deep Concernment for Man's Eternal Well-being , he chearfully offered up his Bodily Life , to recommend and ratifie his Love for the Remission of Sin , and give us an Holy Example to follow his Steps . But these Words will bear another Sease too , as do those he spoak to the Jews , Unless ye eat my Flesh , and drink my Blood , you have no Life in you : Where we may plainly see , that as the Jews vainly and carnally fancyed , he meant his Outward Body only , to which they opposed the Impossibility of the thing ; so Christ declares their Mistake of his Meaning to his Disciples , in these few , but deep Words , The Flesh profiteth nothing : it is the Spirit that quickeneth . So that the Words are true , and weighty in both Senses . VI. And we further acknowledge , that in that Holy Body the Divine Principle of Light and Life did discover the Depth of Satan's Darkness , encounter Hell , Death and the Grave , every Temptation it was possible for the Serpent , with all his Power , and Subtilty to beset him with ( in which Sense he was made like unto us in all things , Sin excepted , that he might be sensible of our Infirmities ) the Divine Life travelled and supported under all , administring Strength to the outward Man , that it might answer the End of its Appointment , & in the End utterly defeated , and forever overcame the Power of the Tempter , bruising the Serpents Head in general , as Prince of Darkness , and God of the World , and in a plain Combat giving him that Foyl , which in good measure shook his Foundation , divided his Kingdom , chased away his Lying Oracles , and proved a very Fatal Blow to his whole Empire : Which holy Conquest obtained by Sweat of Blood , and deep'st Agonies with Holy Patience , may not unfitly be compared to that of some Worldly Prince maintaining a Righteous Cause against an Usurper of his Territories , whom he puts to rout in open Fields ; by which I understand the General Conquest ; yet many Towns , and Cities and Cittadels remaining strongly guarnison'd ( by which I understand , particular Men and Women enslaved by Sin ) they are not thereby overcome , though the Approach be easier to them , and they be truly more endanger'd then before . The One Seed , who is Christ , who is God over all , blessed forever , having given that Proof of his Everlasting Arm , that it has brought a general Salvation by a plain Overthrow of the God of this World , the Enemy of his Glory , and thereby weakened his Power in himself ( which is the single Battel fought in Garments rould in Blood , between the two Seeds , Spirits , Natures and Powers ; God and Mammon ; Christ and Belial ) had many Towns , Cities and Cittadels to vanquish , who lay strongly guarnison'd by this God of the World ; which Places , as I said , represent the Souls of particular Men and Women inbondaged by him . So that though their Hearts were , or are more accessible by that general Victory over the very Spirit of Darkness it self , and Light may be more clear d and broken up ; yet unless those particular Places or Persons are besieged and taken , their Goods spoiled , and Houses sackt of all the strange Gods , & so redeemed from under the Yoak of that Pharaonian Task-Master , reclaimed , renewed , sanctified & naturalized by way of an Holy Subjection to him , who is Lord from Heaven , the Right Heir of all things , to receive his Mark , and bear his Image ; Those Places or Persons must needs have yet been , and be Subjects of the Prince of Darkness , the God of this World , who reigns and rules in the Hearts of the Children of Disobedience . To conclude ; We , though this General Victory was obtained , and holy Priviledges therewith , and that the Holy Body was not Instrumentally without a Share thereof ; yet that both the efficient or chiefest Cause was the Divine Light and Life , that so clearly discriminated and deeply wounded this Mystery of Iniquity , and that none can be thereby benefited , but as they come to experience that Holy Seed of Life , and Mighty Arm of Power revealed to effect the same Salvation in each Particular Conscience , which none can fail of , who receive it first as a Light , that manifesteth and reproveth every Evil Way , and continues to walk up to all its holy Leadings . VII . But there is yet a further Benefit that accrueth by the Blood of Christ , viz. That Christ is a Propitiation and Redemption to such as have Faith in it ; For though I still place the Stres●… of particular Benefit upon the Light , Life , & Spirit revealed , witnessed in every Particular ; yet in that general Appearance there was a general Benefit justly to be attributed unto the Blood of that very Body of Christ , to wit , that it did propitiate : For however it might draw Stupendious Judgments upon the Heads of those who were Authors of that dismal Tragedy , and dyed Impenitent ; yet doubtless it thus far turned to very great Account , in that it was a most precious Offering in the Sight of the Lord , and drew God's Love the more eminently unto Mankind , at least such as should believe in his Name , as his solemn Prayer to his Father at his leaving the World , given us by his beloved Disciple , doth plainly witness . For how can it otherwise be , but that it should render God most propitious to all such , as believe in Christ the Light of the World , when it was but a letti●…g of his only begotten Son's Sufferings turn to their account , that should ever believe in him . Yet doubtless greatly did it influence to some singular Tenderness , and peculiar l●…egard unto all such , who should believe in his Name among other of his weighty Performances , for the sake of that last and greatest of all his External Acts , the resisting unto Blood for the Spiritual Good of the World , thereby offering up his Li●…e upon the Cross through the Power of the Eternal Spirit , that Remission of Sin , God's Bounty to the World , might be preacht in his Name , and in his very Blood too , as that , which was the most ratifying of all his Bodily Sufferings . And indeed , therefore might it seem meet to the Holy Ghost , that Redemption , Propitiation and Remission should be declared , and held forth in the Blood of Christ unto all , that have right Faith therein , as saith the Apostle to the Romans ; Whom God hath set forth to be a Propitiation through Faith in his Blood : and to the Ephesians ; In whom we have Redemption through his Blood , the Forgiveness of Sins , &c. because it implies a firm Belief , that Christ was come in the Flesh , and that none could then have him as their Propitiation or Redemption , who withstood the Acknowledgement of , and Belief in his Vi●…ible Appearance , which John tells us , some denyed and withstood . 2. That he came in order to the Remission , Redemption and Salvation of the World. 3. That his so Dying was both an evident Token of his Love , and strong Argument of Confirmation of his Message and Work. 4. That it might the better end the Jews Services , by an Allusion to the Way of their Temporary and Shadowy Sacrifices , as the whole Epistle to the Hebrews showeth . 5. And that by bringing ( through the holy Light in the Partic●…lar ) i●…to the Acknowledgment of , and Belief in the Blood , which was ratifying of that whole Appearance , Men might be brought unto the knowing Christ after a more Inward and Spiritual Manner , suitable to Christ's own Words , It is the Spirit that quickens ; and the Apostle avers , that the Lord from Heaven is that quickning Spirit ; by which Eternal Spirit he offered up himself without Spot . Nor can any reasonably suppose , that when Christ so spoak to his Disciples explanatorily of what he had obscurely and in Parables said to the Jews , that he meant not something more hidden and Divine then what they and the Jews saw ; Yet that which hindred those Jews from the Knowledge or Benefit thereof , was their Stumbling at him without a Confession , unto whom they co●…ld never come into the Beholding or Experiencing of his Divine Life in them . To conclude , That Body was the Divine Lifes , a Body hast thou prepared me ; therefore all that was done by that Body towards the Redemption of Man-kind , was eminently the Divine Lifes ; yet because many times Actions are denominated from , or appropriated to the Instrument as the next Cause , though not the Efficient , or most Eminent Cause ; therefore the Scripture speaks forth ( as indeed is the Propriety of both the Hebrew and Greek Tongues ( Parabol cally , Hyberbolically , Metaphorically ) the inward Substance and hidden Life of things , by things more Exteriour and Obvious to the Sense , to the End that such Mysteries might be the better accommodated to Vulgar Capacities . Consider what I say with this Qualification , that ultimately and chiefly , not wholy and exclusively the Divine Life in that Body was the Redeemer : For the Sufferings of that Holy Body of Jesus had an engaging and procuring Virtue in th●…m , though the Divine Life was that Fountain , from whence originally it came . And as the Life declared and preached forth it self through that Holy Body ; so who did then come to the Benefit procured by the Divine Life , could only do it through an Hearty Confession to it , as appearing in that Body ; and that from a Sence first begotten by a Measure of the same in themselves . This is the main Import of those Places : Whom God hath set forth to be a Propitiation , and in whom we have Redemption through Faith in his Blood. For who is this H E , whom God hath set forth , and in whom is Redemption ? Certainly the same H E , that was before Abraham , the Rock of the Fathers , that cryed , Lo , I come to do thy Will ( O God ) a Body hast thou prepared me : which was long before the Body was conceived and born . But may some say , How is it then his Blood ? Why , just as the Body is his Body . Those who had Faith in that Blood believed his Visible Appearance , inasmuch as they acknowledged that great Seal and Ratification of it , to wit , the Shedding of the Blood of His Body , who came to save the World , and who alone is the Propitiation , Redemption and Salvation of all who had right Faith in that Appearance and Message so confirmed , and therefore so often exprest by it , as inclusive of all his whole Life and Sufferings beside . And this is my Reason for it , that it was impossible for any Man in that Day to confess to , and believe in that Divine Light and Life , which appeared in that prepared Body , but from the Inward Discoveries and Operations of that Light , with which Christ the Word-God who took Flesh , had enlightened him . However , though the Apostles might then so express themselves , thereby to assert and recommend unto the Faith of all that most Heavenly Manifestation , and the great Love of Christ therein , as the Visitation of the Heavenly Life through that prepared Body , and the deep Sufferings of both for the World , being True and Spiritual Witnesses thereof ; yet it was never intended , that any should barely rest in that , but press after the Knowledge of Christ by Faith in something farther , and beyond that Body , in which he appeared , not excluding our Belief in that too : They who knew Christ after the Flesh , were to press after some more Spiritual Discovery of Him ; and who almost doted on his outward Manifestation , it was expedient , that they should be weaned from it , to the End his more interiour , and indeed beneficial Revelation of himfelf might be witnessed . Faith in his Blood was requisite , that they might confess him , whose Body and Blood it was to be Christ , who is God over all , blessed for ever ; The great Question with the Jews , Whether God was truly manifested in that Body of Flesh which they saw ? So that the Stress lyes in Confessing to the Divinity come in the Flesh ; otherwise they would have rejected not only the most signal Suffering of the whole Manifestation ; but consequently that It self . To conclude , we confess , HE who then appeared , was and is the Propitiation , &c. and in Him was Redemption obtained by all those , who had such true Faith in his Blood : But still it is to be understood , that there must be a Witnessing of a measure of the same Light , Spirit and Power to appear for Redemption in each particular . VIII . That Justification came by Faith in his Blood , is clear in a Sense ; for by the Law could no Flesh be justified : That is , the Law being added because of Transgression , certainly the Transgressor could not be justified , whilst such , by that Law which condemned him for being such . Which puts me upon Distinguishing betwixt Justification , as it is sometimes taken , viz. for Remission , Pardon or Forgiveness of Sin past upon Repentance ; and that Justification , which implies an Acceptance with , and an Access to God , as a Keeper of the Law of the Spirit of Life , which is to be made Inherently Just. In the first Sense , Since all have sinned , no Man can be justified by the Law he has transgress'd : Therefore that great Favour and Mercy of Remission , Pardon and Forgiveness was only then generally preacht in the Name of Jesus , that such as believed in his Message should obtain . Thus by the Works of the Law shall no Flesh be justified ; because , all the Righteousness Man is capable of , ca●…ot make Satisfaction for any Unrighteousness he has committed ; since what he daily doth is but what he daily ows . But still such as keep the Law , are justified : for that a Man should be condemned both for Transgressing & Keeping the Law too , would be very hard . What shall we say then , but that Justification in the first Sense , since Adam's Day to this , hath been God's Free Love upon Repentance ; and above all , that by Christ's visible Appearance , and in his Name was Remission , Pardon , or Forgiveness preacht or held forth to the whole World , upon their believing therein , more eminently , then ever , But in the last Sense , No Man can be justified , but as he is made Just , and is found actually Doing of the Will of God ; That justifies , that is it gives Acceptance with , and Access to God : In this Sense it was , that the Apostle said , Such as are the DOERS of the Law shall be justified ; and not from the Guilt of what they formerly did against it , by then keeping it ; for that is the free Love of God alone , upon the Repentance of the Creature , ( which hath been in all former Ages , but never so eminently held forth to the World , as by the Coming of Jesus Christ in the Flesh. ) So that thus far we can approach the Honester Sort of Professors of Religion , or rather , we never were at a Distance from them , viz. That Men may be reconciled , and in a Sense justified , while Sin may not be totally destroyed : That is , God upon their Repenting of past Sins , whilst not then clearly purged from the Ground of Evil , may , and we believe , doth remit , pardon or forgive former Offences , and is thus far reconciled ; that is , h●… ceaseth to be Wrath , or at a Distance from them , as whilst they went on in a State of Disobedience to the Light. Yet forever we affirm , that no Man or Woman can be ●…ade a Child of God , but as the New Birth , Regenerat●… , and the i●…vine and Heavenly Image comes to be witnessed through the putting off the Old Man and his Deeds , and being baptized by the Holy Ghost and Fire into the one Holy Body , of which Christ , the ●…maculate Lamb of God , is Head and Lord. So that all those who apply to themselves , or others the ●…romises due to this State , unto that before-mentioned , heal themselves or other deceitfuly ; and God will judge for those things . So let all People co●…sider with Sobriety and Moderation , i●… the thi●…gs we a●…ert are not most agreeable with Scripture , and that Light of Truth , which is in their own Consciences , unto which we most of all desire to be made mani●…est . IX . Nor is this all the Good , the Life and Sufferings of that Blessed Manhood brought unto the World ; For , having been enabled so effectually to perform the Will of God Living , an●… so patiently suffered the Will of Wicked Men Dying , therein freely offering up his ●…ost Innocent Life for the World ; He certainly obtained exceeat●…g great and pretious Gifts , which , as every Man comes to believe in the ●…ight , wherewith Christ 〈◊〉 hath enlightned him , and to be lead by it , he shall assuredly f●…el a particular Benefit to him accruing from that general one procured by him , who so laid down his Life for the World. In short , As we cannot but acknowledge him a Saviour in That very Manifestation , or Coming in that prepared Bo●…y , who appeared so extraordinarily to visit the World with h●…s marvelous Light and Truth , to turn their Minds from Error and Darkness , and actually converted and reclaimed many , and endued his Followers with his own Heavenly Light , Life and Power , whereby to supply his exteriour Absence with a most lively , piercing , and effectual Ministry for the compleating the rest from Generation to Generation ; so must we needs attribute this chiefly to the Divine Light , Life and Power , that through the Manhood . of both Lord and Servants , put forth and revealed It self to the Salvation of the World. Nor are we yet , as hath been often hinted ( to speak strictly ) to asscribe the particular Salvation of every Man's Soul , to the Appearance of that same Light in Nature , in either Lord or Servant , albeit many were reacht into their very Hearts and Consciences at that time , and great and mighty things were generally procured , and Christ in that Manifestation became the Author of Salvation unto many ; but rather , as he is the Light of Men Individually , both then did , and now doth appear in the Hearts and Consciences of Men , unto the awakening of whom , and turning their Minds from that Darkness of Tradition , Formality and Sin , which had and doth overcast the Soul , unto that blessed Light in the particular , that thereby ( as to them ) suffer'd , and doth yet suffer so great and tedious an Ecclips ; ●…say , this is the Efficient of Salvation , and all other Exteriour Visitations , Ministries or Assistants , though from the same Light , are in respect of the Light in every single Man or Woman but Instrume●…al : In this Sense then Man is only a Saviour Instrumen●…ly , but Christ both , whether with reference to his own Bodily Appearance , or in the Ministry of his Servants , he is the most excellent Instrument ; and the only Efficient Cause of Salvation , as revealed and obeyed in the Consciences of Men. So that it is not the Question , Whether do the Quakers deny any Benefit to redound by Christ s Bodily Sufferings●… but Whether the Professors allow and acknowledge the Main of the Work to the Divine Life and Light ? In short , He was the General Saviour in that eminent Appearance at Jerusalem , in which he did so many great and good things for Mankind ; & a Particular Saviour , as we find him in our Hearts an holy Light shewing Sin , reproving for , and converting from it into the Holy Nature of the Light , to be Flesh of his Flesh , and Bone of his Bone. Thus have I declared , according to my Understanding grounded on Experience , and that Illumination God has given me , in Moderation , the very Truth , Weight and Tendency of the Outward Coming of Christ , and his deep Sufferings by and for the World ; And also the Nature of his Inward Coming into the Souls of Men to expel the Darkness that lodgeth there ; In both which respects , I confess him to be the Saviour of the World in general , and the Saviour of each Man in particular : But that the Benefit accruing to Men from Him as the general Saviour , is known and received only , where he is witnessed a particular Saviour , and that I will abide by ; For Christ in Man , becoming the Hope of Glory , and Man's being changed into the same Image , from Glory to Glory , even as by the Spirit of the Lord , is the Salvation and Perfection of every True Christian. CHAP. XXII . That Christ is the Light , or the Light is Christ. proved from Scripture , and so concluded ; notwithstanding two Objections , which are fully answered . THat which remains to compleat our Scriptural Discourse of the Light , is to pronounce it that which H. H. J. Faldo , Tho. Hicks , and a Multitude of other Barkers at it , despise to call it , and don 't a little undervalue both us and It because we do ; I mean CHRIST : Not that the Manifestation of Light in every Conscience is the Intire Christ , but that Christ , the Word-God , is that Light of Righteousness , which inlightens all Men ; for which the Scripture is most express in that so well known ( but little believed ) Passage delivered to us by that beloved ●…isciple , who best knew what his Lord was , and stood in no need of any of their Information , how to denominate , or rightly character him ; although they and others implicitely accuse him of Weakness , Obscurity , nay Error , if not Blasphemy too ; who make it all this ( and if it were possible more ) in a poor Quaker , for only Believing on pure Gonviction , this one weighty Passage , THAT WAS THE TRUE LIGHT WHICH INLIGHTENS ALL MANKIND COMING INTO THE WORLD . I have so throughly handled this Matter in a late Book , intituled the Spirit of Truth Vindicated , that I need the less to enlarge at this time , to which I refer the Reader for Satisfaction concerning some Objections raised against the place . However , I will briefly consider it here that our Believing Christ to be an Universal and Sufficient Light , and that to be Christ , may stand in the View of the World , upon so good Foundation , as the Testimony of that Divine and well-beloved Apostle . Two things are commonly urg'd against our Understanding , of the first Nine Verses of John , as they respect the Light. 1. Some say , that the Light here spoken of , is not a Super natural , and consequently no Saving Light , but the Light of common Reason ; Others call it of Nature , decay'd by the Fall , and what Conviction ariseth thence is only the Imperfect Remains of that Natural Light , which these Men , who thus speak , grant all to have , as well before as after Christ's coming in the Flesh. 2. Others say , that this is indeed an Universal and Saving Light , but they restrain it to that Visible Appearance , and make the ALL to be , all those that will believe ; and the World to be that New Spiritual World Christ came to create by Saving Knowledge , which Believers come into . I will briefly answer both , and therein as well all the pretended Anti-Socinians ( viz ) J. Owen , R. Baxter , T. Danson , J. Clapham , J. Bunnion , S. Eaton , J. Grig , T. Imner . T. Hicks , and abundance more who hold the former ; as those who are reputed Socinians , who hold the latter . It is agreed by the First , in the beginning of this Chapter , that Christ's Eternal Divinity is declared by the Evangelist , since some of them , and particularly J. Owen tells us out of Eusebius , that it was written on that very Occasion ; one Cerinthus then denying any such thing . This Word which was with God , and was and is God : This God , the same Person tells us in his first Epistle , is Light ; By Him all things were made , among the rest Mankind . He then tells us that This Word had Life , and from thence descends to inform us , what the Word was with respect to Man ; In Him , the Word was Life , and the Life the Light of Men ; as such , He was that True Light , and not John , who only came to bear Witness of that True Light , which inlightens all Mankind coming into the World. That this Light is Divine , and no otherwise Natural , then as it is Christ's Nature , or Natural to the Word , I shall thus prove . Man is here supposed to be before he was inlightened , therefore what ever was proper , and connatural to Man , as Man , he had before he was inlightened , that is , he had a reasonable Soul , indued with intelligent Faculties , and that clothed with a Body , fitted with sensible Organs ; The Latter differ'd him from Inanimate , the Former from Irrational Creatures . But still the Light , with which this Soul is enlightened , in reference to God , and things appertaining to its Eternal Well being , belongs not to Man , as Man : Surely then , this Light must be superadded , that is , over and above Man's Composition , as a meer Understanding Creature ; and consequently , it must descend from above , and in this Sense be Supernatural . Thus the Word created all things , and among them made Man , enlightened Man with a Supernatural Light. That this Light was not only over and above Man's Nature , but is also of a Divine and Saving , One in it self , 〈◊〉 prove from its being the Life of the Word ; for if the Life of the Word be the Light of Men , here is no such thing as descending to an Effect , to prove the Light Divine , a that the Life should bring forth a Light , and therefore this Light is Divine , because the Life of the Word that Product it is so : I say , without going to an Effect for a Proof of the Light 's Divinity , I thus Undeniably prove it from the Life it self . for that very Divine LIFE is the LIGHT , not that it createth or brings forth a Light , as a Cause doth an Effect , but is that very Light it self ; so that unless they will make that Life Natural ( I mean as they do ) Created ( though very improperly ; for a Divine Life is Natural to Christ ) they cannot conclude the Light which is not the Product , but that very same Life it felf , to be a meer Natural Light. If then the very LIFE of the Word , be the LIGHT of Men , unless the LIFE of the Word be NATURAL , the LIGHT of Men must be SUPERNATURAL , DIVINE and INFINITE , as it becomes the LIFE of the WORD ( which is GOD ) to be . And this roundly checks the dull Ignorance , or base Malice of Tho. Hicks , who either could not , or would not understand G. Whitehead , when he said The Light must needs be Divine , because the Life from whence it came is so , and the Effect is alwayes of the same Nature with the Cause , in any other sense then this , That because , saith Tho. Hicks , God is the Cause of Beasts & Trees , by G. W's Argument , therefore they are God ; For sayes he , G. W. asserts , that such as is the Cause such must the Effect be : Which strange Construction of G. W's Words , bewrayes either great Stupidity or Disingenuity . I would ask that very Angry Man ; Is there no Effect of Power , besides that of Nature ? Did the Father of T. Hicks get a B●…ast or a Man when he begat him ? Surely , unless he has abandon●…d all Understanding , methinks , ●…e that makes in his Book ●…o notable a ●…istinction betwixt Reason & Railing , by using so little of the one , and so much of the other , should put one betwixt a Natural and Potential Effect ; I mean such an Effect as proceeds from Nature , and one that comes from meer Power : The Divine Life can naturally produce nothing that is not as Divine as it self ; b●…t its Power hath made all that is not o●… itself , as well Inanimate as Animate Beings . B●…t enough of this at this time , and till this be proved not enough by those that are bet●… , as willing then proving it so . The Life of the Word being then the Light of Men , and that without any Diss●…nt , and consequently 〈◊〉 ; I have no need to prove it SAVING , till that ●…able Man has singled out Saving from ●…ivine which is not so absurd , but for all his great Skill in Divinity , he may venture at , and in my Judgment , such an Enterprise shall be sufficient to renown the Light , and ba●… him in the thoughts o●… all that forbid not Understanding in their Religion , without any further Apology . However , let me briefly say , that It being a Measure of the Tru●… Light , by way o●… Excellency , ●…ar transcending John ( ●…or as such is he preferr●…d , who is the Inlighte●…er ) and that it was through John all should believe i●… him ; and lastly , that to these who received him as the Universal Enlightener , or True Light , He gave Power to become the Sons of God , it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 follow , that the Light is Saving : and indeed I have with multiplied Arguments and Testimonies 〈◊〉 made appear from Scripture and Story the Universality and Sufficiency of that Divine Light. Such then that say , it is decayed , because they are themselves , methinks , resemble those at Sea , who , being under Sail , fancy the Shoar moves . The Fault is in the Eye , blinded by the God of the World , and not in that blessed Light , which shines unprofitably upon the Blind ( through their own Blindness got by Disobedience ) Let them by unfeigned Repentance be unscaled , and the Sun will give good Proof of its Light ; Darkness ought not to charge the Light , but it s●…f that it sees not . Tho. Hicks confesseth All are inlightened , but denyes the Sufficiency thereof : yet refuses to be ruled by it : Let him first obey it , before he despiseth it , and prove himself above it , before he throws it so far below a Christian : He may be allowed then to blame the Light as Impotent , when he can live Uncondemned of it , or Experience can tell us its Insufficiency to Well-Living : T is vain to undervalue That which chargeth both with Duty omitted , and Sin committed . Happy Man were he , if leaving Prejudice , he obeyed the Light within , it would not teach him to write Lyes , Slanders and Forgeries , nor to call Men Knave , much less to threaten them with Blows whom he scurrilously named so . But Our Religion is to Bear and His to Abuse . However , this stands sure , that the Life of the Word is the Light of Men , and consequently Divine ; and ( to say nothing of the Absurdity of their Phraises ) there I will leave this first Sort of Men , and their fruitless Opposition . To the Second Interpretation given , destructive of that Scope we testifie the Light to have , I return thus much . That because the Light of Men was the Life of the Word , which Word was God , by whom all things were created , and that all Men are mentioned in that place controverted , which presupposeth no further Qualification in order to have this Light , then being born one of that all Men into this World ; I conclude , that it is not only a most False , but Injurious Notion , to assert the Commencement or being o●… that Light , to be from the Coming of Christ in the Flesh. Besides , since this relates to the whole Man , which Word begins with Adam , and ends with the last of Man's Race , I cannot conceive how that Exposition can be valid ; for then John would have been before Christ , instead of Christ's being before Abraham ; whereas , therefore is John denyed to be that Light , because that true Light by Way of Excellency was the Enlightener of all Men , yea , of John himself , and therefore call●…d that true Light , that is , the Fountain of all Light , Light it self , from whom all derives , but he derives from none . And to say nothing at this time of the miserable Estate those of Mankind must labour under antecedently to Christ's Coming in the Flesh , let it be considered , that these first Nine Verses in John , relate not in the least to his Fleshly Appearance , from whence those Men would date both his Original , and Man's Illumination , but are a continued Series of the highest Proofs of a Divinity , that we might as well know what He was before He came , as when He did come ; and the one was an Introduction to the other . Neither is it fair for these Men to a●…egorize Christ out of his Divinity , and yet deny us any Allegory to prove it . If they deny Meanings elsewhere , let them do so here ; It unbecomes Men that have their Wits , to rack them , to prop meer Fancy . Further let me add , that as He who then came into the World , was the same that created that World , into which he came , and therefore Previous , or before such Coming ●…o neither can it hold that the World , into wa●…ch M●… comes , is the New Creation , since it is not said , who believe , which is usually joyned to things of that importance ( believe and be saved , &c. ) Nor can such as don't believe , be totally excluded from being lighted , 〈◊〉 the Wicked could not Rebell against it , if they had 〈◊〉 ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Evil Actions be Reproved without it : So that all such 〈◊〉 is forreign , both from Scripture , Reason , and indeed Probability also . We shall conclude then , that Christ , the Word-God , is the Light of the World , that all are inlightened by Him , the Eternal Sun of Righteousness ; therefore the Light of Men is Christ : For to Him , that is , Christ , or True Light , John testified , who gives Wicked Men to see their Unrighteousness , and who leads Good Men on in the Way of Holiness , which , persevered in , brings unquestionably to Eternal Happiness : and without which all Imputation of general Acts of Righteousness by another , will avail nothing in the great and terrible Day of God's Inquest : when J. Faldo , J. Bunion , J. Grig , and that malitious T. Hicks , with the rest of their Omnious Fraternity in Notion , shall be judged , not by the Deeds any other hath done for them ( wholy without them ) but according to the Deeds done in their own Mortal Bodies . This Subject I shall conclude , with a few Reasons for the Universality and Sufficiency of the Light within , that we may not only be seen to have Scripture , and other Authorities , but Reason , which is more universal , of our side too . CHAP XXIII The Universality of the Light proved by Reason . THat there is an Universal Light , the Universality of all Ages have plentifully restified unto . There is nothing more constant now that can plead either such Antiquity , or general Consent : Not a Nation in the World ever knew an Age , in which it was destitute of such a Discovery of Internal Light , as gave to 〈◊〉 Evil from Good , That Virtue was ever most commendable , and Vics above all things pernicious and damnable ; This is matter of Fact , which I have already proved , and the most Barbarous of Nations now inhabited , are a clear Demonstration of what I say : conclude therefore , that since both Wicked and Good in all Ages have acknowledged to Well and ill Doing , and that this depends upon the Discovery of that Divine Light which manifests every Reproveable Action ; that none of Mankind are exempted from this Illumination . But again , it is highly consistent with the Goodness of God , and Order of his Creation ; since it seems unreasonable , that Men should have the Benefit of a Natural Sun which shines on the Just and Unjust , by which to direct their Steps , and securely transact all corporal Affairs ; and yet their Souls be le●…t destitute of a Spiritual Luminary ; or Sun of Righteousness , when unto the Salvation of a single Soul , Christ counts the World of no value . The Soul then hath Eves as well as the Body ; and as Men may see , if they please , when the Sun is in the outward Firmament , unless they on Purpose close their Eyes , so may all rational Souls see , if they will , by their Eye of Reason , that Spiritual Sun , which gives as true Discerning and Direction to the Mind , how to think and desire as the Natural Sun doth the Body , how to act and walk aright . Were not this true , here would be a falling into a miserable Charging of God with Neglect to his Creatures ; For since it is to be supposed that God made nothing but with a Design it should acknowledge a Creator , after its respective Nature ; and that Man's Duty was peculiar , namely Divine Homage and Worship , exprest generally by a 〈◊〉 correspond●…nt to that Being which made him , it is just that we believe God hath indued Mankind with something that is Divine , in order to it ; since oth●… , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be destitute of what only co●…ld enable him to 〈◊〉 that Duty , without which he co●…ld not , please nor acknowledge God. If then all Mankind ought to Worship , Fear , and Reverence God , Certainly all mankind have an Ability from God so to do , or else perfect impossibilities are expected ; because ( otherwise ) a most impotent Creature : But it can never stand certainly with the Rectitude or Righteousness of the Eternal God to expect that from Man , he never gave him Power to do ; or the Improvement of a Talent he never had . In short , if we ought to think that God is to be reverenc'd and worship'd , we must agree that he has 〈◊〉 Mankind with a Divine Light and Knowledge in order to that End , or say with the Man in Matthew , God is as hard Master , an Austere Lord , he reaps where he never sowed , But I am almost of the Mind , that the Principles and Pre●…dice of some encline them rather to think hardly of God , then favourably of the Light. How ill doth it become th●…se to object an Impossibility of the Light 's bearing their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , who are daily wounding it with their Rebellions ? But they object , Some deny they have it , and others by their 〈◊〉 Lives shew they are void of it . To which I say , It is not impossible for a Life of Worldly Care , or Pleasures & ●…right Debauchery , to darken and quite blind that Eye which only sees the Light of Truth ( and being kept single , preserves the Body full of Light ) but this makes no A●…eration in the Light ; if through Repentance and Contrition the Scales fall off , the Light refuses not it self to the Eye that can and will see it ; the Light remains unaltered , 't is Man that changes . Would the Running Mad of some Men be a good Argument to prove Mankind irrational ? neither is it any Demonstration against the Universality of the Light within , because some have by the Stupifyings of Sin rendred themselves I●…sensible of it . Nor doth Ill-living disprove the Light , enough improve Disobedience to it ; Is it good 〈◊〉 that 〈◊〉 Wicked Man will not receive good Advice , therefore he never was well advised ? And what better Reason can it be to say , Men disobey the Light , therefore they never had it ; whilst that proves they had it , at least as a Condemner ? A Man may be said to be enlightened , when he knows and does not his Duty ; but rather I confess , when he becomes embettered by such Illumination : In the first Sense , All are illuminated , in the last , only such as having the Light , joyn to it , and obey it ; for they will find their Understandings illuminated to that Degree , which the Disobedience of others shuts them up from . In short , All have Light to Reprove , unless they have quite put out their Eyes ; but such only have it beneficially , as their Teacher and Director who receive it ( as well as have it ) in the Love of it . Since then the Consent of Mankind , the Goodness and Justice of God , & Reason of the thing it self plead so strongly for the Universality of this Light , I need say the less , and shall descend to consider its Sufficiency . CHAP. XXIV . The Sufficiency of the Light proved by Reason . BEcause as well the Sufficiency as Universality of the Light , is struck at by our Adversaries , it shall not , I hope , seem amiss , if I say something briefly to it , though much of what I have said in the former is referrable to this . That the Universal Light is also Sufficient , is a Belief so Reasonable & Necessary , that the Opposite Opinion must needs impeach God of Want of Rectitude . All grant , that God has made Man Rational , capable of a measurable Knowledge of his Creator , which his bare Capacity will never give him , unless God please to make some Discovery of himself suitable to that Created Capacity in the Creature : Certainly then , since God desires not that the Creature should receive a wrong Impression of him , and yet he requires Universal due Fear and Reverence , he must needs have given some Certain and Sufficient Discovery , in order to it , by those Lively Manifestations , and most Sensible Touches of the Light to and upon the Soul , which cannot but be true , clear , and if minded , efficacious ; For that God should require Men to serve him , and not give them what is sufficient , is worse then not to give at all , since Man 's not Obeying such Discoveries , is not so great an Aggravation of his Neglect , as the Imperfection of them is , either of his Insufficiency , or Unwillingness that made them to do otherwise . What is this but to say , God expects Homage from Men as their Soveraign Lord , and that they live uprightly in the World , yet he has given them no Ability , in order to do it ? He pronounces such Miserable who conform themselves not to an Holy Life , but gives no Power to avoid the Curse ? In short , though Reason tell us , he made none purposely to Destroy them , but rather that he might be glorified in their Salvation , which he is also said to invite Men to ; yet that he designs nothing less , by leaving any , or all Mankind under the Fa●…ntings of an Impossible Success . But , as such Dismal Consequences belong not to the Truth ( what ever share such kind of Calvinistical Predestinarians may have therein ) so we are well assured , that the Light of which we speak , has ever been Sufficient to the End for which it has been given in every Age , both to Manifest Evil , Condemn for it , and Redeem by the Holy Inclinings and Operation of its Power , those who are the Diligent Disciples of it ; For it seems most Unreasonable , that the Spirit of Darkness should be sufficient , to draw into , and Destroy by Sin , and yet the Spirit of Light not be sufficient to Redeem and Save from it . Since therefore we cannot admit of any Insufficiency in the Light within , but we must suppose , that whilst God would be rightly worshipt , he has too darkly discovered the Way how to do it aright ; that bis Gift is Impotent , that Man is required to do what he has no Power to perform ; and that , whilst God requires Man to serve him , he hath not so much as shown him what way he ought to do it ; All which Consequences are most Unworthy of God : We rather chuse to sit down contented with this Belief , that God , who made Man , and has given him a Soul Capable of Knowing and Serving his Maker , hath also endued him with Divine Knowledge , by a SUPERADDED LIGHT AND POWER , and enabled him thereby , to live subservient to that Knowledge ; That God's Gift is perfect and sufficient for that Work ; and that such as are led by it , must needs be led to God , unto which , that Divine Light naturally tends , and attracts , as that from whom it came : which is certainly a State of blessed Immortality . In short , accept these few Arguments Comprehensive of these two Chapters , and indeed most of what goes before . 1. God requires no Man to do any thing , he has nog given him first to Know , and the●… Power to Do. But God requires every Man to fear him , and work Righteousness ; Consequently , He has given every Man both a Discovery of his Will , and Power to do it . 2. No Man ought to worship the true God Ignorantly : But every Man is commanded to worship God ; therefore , He is to do it Knowingly . 3. No Man can know God , but He must ●…over it to him , and that cannot be without Light ; therefore , every Man has Light. 4. This Light must be Sufficient , or God's Gifts are Imperfect , and answer not the end for which they were given ; But God's Gifts are perfect , and can perform what they are designed to ; therefore , since the Light is his Gift , it must be Sufficient . The Sum is this ; Every Man ought to Fear , Worship and Obey God. No Man can do it a●…ight , that knows him not . No Man can know him , but by the Discovery he makes of himself . No Discovery can be made without Light : Nor this Light give that Discovery if imperfect ●…r Insuffecient in Nature ; Therefore , all have a Sufficient Light to this great End and Purpose , viz. To Fear , Worship and Obey God. CHAP. XXV . The 〈◊〉 , Who He , or They are that obey the Light , & c ? Considered and Answered ; being a Character of a true Quak r. AS I took Occasion to begin this Discourse from the late Dialogue , so shall I end so much of it as immediately concerns the Light with my Answer to the third Query made by T. Hicks , W●…o this He , or They are that obey this Light , and in obeying attain S●…lvation ' If I should take his Question as personally directed , I mean , what Man or Men they be , I should decline to answer ; for the Controversy is not now of Person but Principles . I rather take this to be his Meaning , What are the Qualifications of those that obey this Light ? Not what are their Names ; but what kind or manner of People are they ? In short , what is it to obey the Light ? I think I have so fully exprest my self already in this Matter , that with an 〈◊〉 Adversary I might be saved the Pains of any further considering it ; But that nothing may be thought to be 〈◊〉 as Unanswerable , which is so easy to be answered , I tell him and all Men , and that not without some Knowledge experimental of what I say , That such 〈◊〉 the Light , who 〈◊〉 all that it manifests to be Evil , and inclines to perform all that it requires to be done ; For Example : When the Light shows that it is Inconsistent with a Man fearing God , to be 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 , Proud , Covetous , Backbiting , Envious , Wrathful , Unmerciful , Revengeful , Prophane , Drunken , Voluptuo●… , 〈◊〉 , which with such like are called in Scripture , the Fruits of the Flesh , and Works of Darkness ; and Persons so qualified , the Children of Wrath , such as delight not to retain God in their Knowledge , &c. I say , when the Light discovers these things to be Inconsistent with a Man fearing God , He , who truly Obeyes the Light , denyes and forsakes them , however Cress it be to Flesh and Blood , and let it cost him never so dear : Though Relations do both threaten and entreat , the World m●…ck , and he be sure to become the Song of the Drunckard , and a De●…ision to his Ancient Companions , No , he dare not conform himself any more to the Fashions of the World which pass away , and that draw out the Mind into vain and unprofitable Delights , by which the 〈◊〉 in him had been 〈◊〉 ; neither to gratifie the Lust of the Eye , the Lust of the Flesh , and the Pride of Life , which are not of the Nature of his Father , who has begotten better Desires in him : He rejects the Conversation he once had in the World , and in the Eye of its Children seems a Man Forlorn and Distracted ; he takes up the Cross , desp●…ses the Shame , and willingly drinks o●… the Cup of bitter Mockings , and yields to be baptized with the Baptism of deep Tryals Christ Jesus , his Lord , 〈◊〉 of , and was baptized with . He is as well taught to deny the Religions , as Cares and Pleasures of the World. Such as prosess Religion from what they have either been taught by others , or read and gathered with their Carnal Minds in the Scriptures , intruding into the Practices of either Prophets or Apostles as to External and Shadowy things , not being led thereto by the same Power they had , he can have no Fellowship with ; He counts all such Faith and Worship Imagination made of Men , or a meer lifeless Imitation ; He prefers one Sight begotten from a Sence of God's Work in the Heart beyond the longest Prayers in that State ; He leaves them all , walks as a Man alone , fearing to offer God a Sacrifice that is not of His own Preparing ; He charges all other Faiths and Worships with Insufficiency and meer creaturely Power , which are not held and performed from an holy Conviction and Preparation by the Angel of God , the Light of his Presence in the Heart and Conscience ; therefore goes he forth in the Strength of his God against the Merchants of Babylon , Woes and Plagues are Rightly in his Mouth against those Buyers and Sellers of the Souls of Men : He is Jealous for the Name of the Lord ; And therefore dares not speak Peace unto them , neither can be put into their Mouths , but testifies against all such Wayes ; Freely he received , freely he gives . Thus is this Man Unravel'd , Unreligion'd , Unbottom'd as to his former State , wherein he was Religious upon Letter , Form , Mens Traditions , Education , and his own Imagination ; He is as a Man quite undone , that he may be made what he should be . Thus is he convinced of Sin and of Righteousness too ; and the Joy he once had when he girded himself and went whether he would , is now turned into Sorrow , and his Rejoycing , into Ho●…ling : He has beheld God in the Light , and abhors himself in Dust and Ashes ; Sin , that was pleasant once in the Mouth , he finds bitter in the Belly , and that which the World esteems worthy their Care he flies as a Man would do a Bear robbed of her Whelps ; Sin is become exceeding Sinful to him , insomuch that he cries out , who shall deliver him ? He labours greatly , and is very heavy loaden : He is not willing to fly in the Winter , but is resolved to stand the Tryal ; For this Man not only brings his former Deeds to the Light , and there suffers Judgment to pass upon them , but patiently takes part in that Judgment , who was so great an Accessory to them . Nor doth his Obedience conclude with the Sentence given against past Sins , and himself that committed them ; but most patiently endures the Hand of the Lord till his Indignation be overpast , and till that which condemned Sin ( the Fruit ) hath destroyed the very Root of it , which hath taken so deep hold in his Heart , and the same Spirit of Judgment that condemned Sin , be brought forth into perfect Victory over the very Nature and Power of Sin. This Judgment is found in the Light , therefore do the Sons of the Night reject the Knowledge of its Wayes , and the Children of the Day joy greatly in its Appearance . But neither is this all that makes up that Good Man , who obeys the Light ; For a compleat Son of Light , is one that has conquer'd and expel'd the Darkness ? 'T is true , he was once Darkness , but now Light in the Lord , because he hath been turned from Darkness to the Light , and from Satan's Power unto God , who is Light it self , and with him is his Fellowship continually . This is the Man who in the Way of the Light hath met with the Inward Cleansing ; for having been purged by the Spirit of Judgment , and the Spirit of Burning ( otherwise called the severe Reproofs , Stroaks and Terrors of the Light in the Conscience he has ever a Watch set up in his Heart ; A Thought must not pass which has not the Watch-Word , but at every Appearance he cries , Stand , if a Friend , and owned o●… the Light ( who is the great Leader ( given of God for that Purpose ) then he lets It pass ; otherwise , he brings It to the Commander of the Conscience , who is to sit in Judgment upon It. Thus is Christ the Light , King , Judge and Lawgiver ; And by this he grows strong , & increaseth with the Increases of God : Yet he often reads the Scriptures , and that with much Delight , greatly admiring the exceeding Love of God to former Ages , which he himself witnesseth to be true in this ; and many things are opened to his Refreshment . So is the Light the Just Man's Path , that in every Age still shined brighter and brighter , in which the cleansing Blood of Jesus Christ is felt to cleanse from all Sin ; Thus doth he bridle his Thoughts , so that his Words and Actions offend not . Above all , he is often retired to the Lord , loves Fellowship with him , waits for dayly Bread , not in his own Words , Strivings or Will , but emty of Thoughts , or the Peace or Comfort that is drawn or imagined from thence , he silently waits to feel the Heavenly Substance brought into his Soul , by the Immediate Hand of the Lord , for it is not fetching in this Thought , or remembring the other Passage in Scripture , or calling to Mind what has been formerly known , but every Immediate Word that proceeds from out of the Mouth of God , that can satisfie him . In short , He that obeyes the Light , is thereby taught to deny Ungodliness and Worldly Lusts , and to be Sober Righteous , Patient , Humble , Meek , Upright , Merciful , Forbearing , Forgiving , Peaceable , Gentle , Self-denying , Constant , Faithful and Holy , because the Lord his God is Holy. Thus have I given a brief Account as well what HE is not , as what HE is that is Obedient to the Light within , which is Christ's Appearance in the Heart , whose Holy Blood is felt to Cleanse , Attone and Save all those who believe and abide therein . CHAP. VI. The Discourse hithertoo 〈◊〉 up , and concluded with an Exhortation to all Professors of Religion , esp●…cially our Opposers . I Will sum up the whole of this Discourse into these few Heads . I. That Salvation is to be saved from Sin first , and Wrath consequentially ; He shall save them from their Sins . II. That Christ , the Word-God , has enlightened all Mankind , not only a●…ter his Coming in the Flesh , but before : And that the Light has ever been Sufficient as well as Universal to lead to God all such as have obeyed it , as by its Properties and Effects is demonstrated . III. That the Difference betwixt the Time of the Law and that of the Gospel , as generally distinguisht , was in Manifestation not in Nature . God might be as much more propitiou●… and bou●…ti ui to the last Ages ( be it , that they were better able 〈◊〉 receive such extraordinary Discoveries , or that it wa●… the alone good Pleasure of his Soveraign Will ) as he was to the former Ages , yet that he gave them a Sufficiency of the same Divine Light to conduct them through the World to Eternal Blessedness . IV. That Jews and Creeks , Heathens and Christians agree in this . V. That still the Preheminence is given to Christ's Manifestation in Flesh , both generally and particularly , that being both the Fulness of Time , and Fulness of Discovery , which put an end to the Types and Figures and Car●…al Co●…mandements , by shewing forth an Abrogation and Consu●…tion of them all , in the Substance it self : In which State they are not needed ; but in Comparison thereof , they are ( though once they were as Calenders , for weak People to read some mystically Glory by ) but Beggarly Elements . VI. That not only in that Flesh did the Eternal Light preach forth it self the End of these Things , by Revealing & becoming the Author of a more plain and perfect Way ( though less easie to Flesh and Blood ) placing the Stress of all upon an Eva●…gelical Righteousness , whereof he became the first Mi●…er , and our most Holy Example ) but he also appear'd in that publick Body ( so peculiarly prepared ) a General Saviour , by his Life , Doctrine , Miracles , Death of the Cross & Resurrection ; in and by all which he obtained a Name above every Name . VII . That nevertheless not to the Body , but holy Light of Life therein , is chiefly to be asscribed the Salvation ; and to the Body however excellent , but Instrumentally : for that it was the Eternal Light and Life , which gave the Weight to all the Actions and Sufferings of the Body . VIII . That the Benefit then procured is not witnessed by any , but as they come to believe in Christ the Light , as he doth appear in the Heart and Conscience , to save from Sin , destroy the Works of the Devil , finish Transgression , and bring in of his Everlasting Righteousness : Wherefore to fancy one's self intituled to a State of Salvation , whilst in Rebellion against the Light within ( which is Christ's inward Knocking and Appearance ) must needs be a Delusion most pernicious , and destructive to the Souls of men . IX . That upon the whole it is determin'd and concluded , that Christ is that Light which shineth in the Conscience . X. That the Light is prov'd by Reason both Universal and Sufficient ; The first from the Consent of Mankind , the Goodness and Rectitude of God ; the second from both Experience , and that it were inconsistent with God , to give a Light to his Creature insufficient for the Work for which he gave it . Thus in short have I given the Heads and Results of most of the Matter contained in the whole Discourse upon the Light ; and I intreat our Adversaries , they would seriously weigh the Whole , before they either reject it , or endeavour to reply to it : But let them be advised to try the Virtue of the Light , before they sentence it to have none ; And in the Love of God be once prevail'd upon to consider , if something in them doth not really Condemn them , amongst other things for these brisk Attempts against it . Oh! Why should Men covet to Know so far beyond what they do faithfully Practise ? Let them first out-live the Just and Holy Requirings of the. LIGHT , before they put these Barbarous Affronts upon it , of a WIL IN THE WISP , A DARK LANTHORN-LIGHT , NATURAL , INSUFFICIENT , IGNIS FATUUS , THE QUAKERS IDOL , and abundance of such like Frothy , Prophane , and indeed Blasphemous Epithetes , which they wickedly bestow upon IT , as if they were Its P●…per Names ; when the Scriptures they would oppose to it , plainly tell them , that the whole Work of the Apostolical Ministry was , To turn People from Darkness to the Light , from the Power of Sathan unto God , that they might have Remission of Sins : As much as to say , Such as are turned to the Light , are turn'd to God , who is Light ; and those who abide there , both have Remission of the Punishment , and Purgation from the Defilement of Sin. And whatever any may think of us , we both believe , assert , and will maintain against Men and Divels , that God is LIGHT ; and that out of the Light , or void of his Divine Illumination , no man can Know him , and consequently not Worship him , unless they should worship an Unknown God : That such as receive this Illumination , and rebel not against it ; but improve this Heavenly Talent , they have Fellowship with the Pure Eternal God , and experience the Blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse the●… from all Unrighteousness . If any think to arrive at Glory another Way , and will not be admonisht , let them proceed ; we speak what we know , and can but declare what we have felt of the Work of God in our Hearts . The Scriptures we highly value : But we believe not the things we often quote thence , to be true , Only because there , but for that we are Witnesses of the same Operation , and bring in our experimental Testimonies to confirm the Truth of theirs : and such truly honour the Scriptures ; all others are at best but empty Scribes , and Pharisaical Babblers . So with God I leave my Labour in this Particular , desiring , that his Heavenly Light may yet more abundantly arise upon the Dark Hearts of Mankind and awaken them to Repentance , that since IT hath so long shined in Darkness uncomprehended , till even Darkness it self is grown so impudent as to interpret its Inability , to see the Insufficiency of the Light , he would be pleased to cause it to shine out of Darkness , that IT might plead the Excellency of ITS own Divine Nature in the Consciences of Men and Women , against the daily Scornes and base Detractions , that even great Professors of Christianity stick not to fling upon It ; so ill are they principl'd , and so un-Christianly employ'd , which proves to me , how little they are Profess●…rs of the True , Pure and Undefiled Religion , what ever Place their cunning Devices may have given them in the Hearts of Weak and Simple People . My Soul pittyeth their Opposition , and feareth the Consequence of such Resistance ; and desires they may see the very Vanity of their Endeavours against the Light , Repent of them , and be Converted , that God may yet Heal them : which sincere Desire is my Return for all their Hard Speeches and Ungodly Sayings against us in general , and my self in particular . W. Penn. AN APPENDIX To the First Part ; being a Discourse OF THE GENERAL RULE OF Faith and Life , AND Judge of Controversie . Greatly importing all those who desire to take Right Measures of Faith ; and to Determine ( at least to themselves ) the numerous Controvers●…es now on foot in the World. By the same Author . For in Christ Jesus , neither Circumcision availeth any thing , nor Uncircumcision , but a NEW Creature : And as many as walk according to THIS Rule , Peace be on them , and Mercy , and upon the whole Israel of God , Gal. 6. 16. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit ; for the Spirit searcheth all things , yea , the deep things of God — The Things of God knoweth no Man save the Spirit of God — He that is Spiritual judgeth all things , 1 Cor. 2. 10 , 11 , 15. But ye have an Unction from the Holy One ; and ye know all things , 1 John 2. 20. Printed in the Year 1673. OF THE GENERAL RULE OF Faith and Life . SInce there be so many Faiths in the World , and perplext Controversies about them ; and that it greatly behoveth every man ( if to Contend for , then first ) to Know the True Faith that overcometh the World , It may not be unnecessary to say something of the General Rule of Faith and Life , and Judge of Controversie , at this time . And indeed I am prest to it from this weighty Consideration , that Men perish for Want of it , and can no more arrive at Truth without it , then the distressed Mariner can gain his Port who sailes without either Star or Compass . I shall begin with an Explanation of the Terms , Rule , and Faith , of which we shall first treat , that we may as well express what we intend by the one , as what we mean by the other , which will be a proper Introduction to the whole Discourse . By General Rule , &c. we understand , that Constant Measure or Standard by which Men have been in all Ages enabled to Judge of the Truth or Error of Doctrines , and the Good or Evil of Thoughts , Words and Actions . By Faith we understand an Assent of the Mind in such manner to the Discoveries made of God thereto , as to resign up to God , and have Dependence upon him , as the Great Creator and Saviour of his People , which is inseparable from good Works . That Men in all Ages have had a Belief of God , and some Knowledge of him ( though not upon equal Discovery ) must be granted from that account that all Story gives us of Mankind in matters of Religion ; several have fully performed this : Ofold , Justin Martyr , Clemens Alexandrinus , Augustine , and others ; of later times , Du Plessy , Grotius , Amiraldus , L. Herbert , with many more : And indeed the reliques we have of the most ancient Historians and Authors , are a Demonstration in the Point . Now the Scripture tells us , that no Man knows the Father but the Son , and he to whom the Son reveals him : And as none knows the things of Man , save the Spirit of Man ; so the things of God knows no Man , but the Spirit of God. Hence we may safely conclude , that the Creating Word that was with God , and was God , in whom was Life , and that Life the Light of Men ; who is the Quickning Spirit , was He , by whom God in all Ages must have been revealed ; consequently , that Light or Spirit hath been the General Rule of mens Knowledge , Faith and Obedience , with respect to God. And thus much Pythagoras ( that liv'd about Six Hundred Years before those Words were spoak or writ ) laid down for a Maxim , viz. That no man can know what is agreeable to God , except a man hear God himself , that is , within ; for that was his Doctrine : To which the Apostle and Prophet thus agree ; 1. In that whatever makes manifest is Light. 2. That whatever might be known of God was manifest within ; for God ( who is Light , 1 Joh. 1. 5. ) had shewn it unto them : And God hath shewn unto thee , O Man , what is good and acceptable , &c. which could not be without his Light shining in Man's Conscience ; Therefore the Light of God in the Conscience must needs have been the general Rule , &c. It was by this Law , that Enoch , Noah , Abraham , Melchisedeck , Abimeleeh , Job , Jethro , &c. walked and were accepted , as saith Irenaeus & Tertullian , They were Just by the Law written in their Hearts ; then was it their Rule to and in that just State. Obj. It seems then you deny the Scripture to be the General Rule , &c. Answ. How can they be the General Rule , that have not been General ? That which was both before , and since they were in being , must needs be more general then they : But that was this Light in the Conscience , the Law and Guide of those Patriarchs ( for the Scriptures began long after in Moses ) consequently that must be the general Rule , &c. Obj. But granting that the Light within were so before Scripture was extant , yet since the Writing of holy Scripture , the Scripture , and not the Light , hath been the general Rule . Answ. That cannot be , unless Palestina or Canaan , a little Province of Asia , was the whole World ; and the Jews , a particular People , all Mankind : For at what time the Writings were among the Jews , other Nations were only left to the Law and Light within ; This the Apostle confirmeth in that Passage , For the Gentiles , which have not the Law ( that is , the outward Law , or Law written ) do by Nature the things conteined in the Law , which sheweth the Work of the Law written in their Hearts . And the Gentiles themselves called it , the immutable Law , the everlasting Foundation of Vertue ; no liveless Precepts , but immortal ; a sacred Good , God the Overseer ; the living Rule , the Root of the Soul ; that which makes the Good Man. Thus Thales , Pythagoras , Socrates , Plato , Plotin , Hieron , Philo , Plutarch , as cited : And saith Sophocles , God grant that I may alwaies observe that vener●…ble Sanctity in my Words and Deeds which these noble Precepts ( writ 〈◊〉 Mans Heart ) requ●…re ; God is their Father : neither shall they ever be abrogated ; for there is in them a GREAT GOD that never waxeth Old. More reverent Epithetes then John Faldo and T. Hicks can afford , as their Books too openly witness ; yet would go for Christian-men , though manifestly short of Heathens . Thus is it evident that the Scripture was not the general Rule , a●…ter it was given forth . Obj. But hath it not been since ; and is it not now the general Rule , & c ? Answ. There hath been since , and is now the same Impediment ; for before Christ's coming in the Flesh , and since , where the Scriptures never reach d , there hath been the same Light : And though Nations ( through not glorifying God as God , when they have known him ) have bin so given up to all manner of Impieties , as that their Understandings have been greatly vail'd ; yet did not the Light within so wholely loose its Ruling Exercise among them , as that they lived without any Sence of such thing ; Therefore still the Scriptures have not been , neither are the General Rule , no not so much as of any Age ; since in no Age can it be prov'd , that the whole World was furnished with them : But had they been so for some one or two Ages , as they never were ; yet the granting it will not reach our Question , where the Word General , implieth the Nature of the Thing it self , respecting Mankind from the Beginning to this Day , and so to the End. Obj. But is not the Scripture the Rule , &c. of our Day ? Answ. If The Rule , then the General Rule ; for whatsoever is The Rule of Faith and Life , excludeth all other from being General , they being but particular in respect of it self ; Therefore not The Rule of Faith and Life . But besides their not being Cenetal , I have several Reasons to offer , why they cannot be The Rule of Faith and Life , &c. 1. If now the Rule , then ever the Rule : But they were not ever the Rule ; and therefore they cannot now be the Rule . That they were not ever the Rule is granted ; But that they are not therefore now the Rule may be by some denyed , which I shall prove . If the Faith of God's People in all Ages be of one Nature , then the Rule but of one Nature : But clear it is , Heb. 11. The Faith has been but of one Nature ; Consequently , the Rule but of one Nature . In short , If the holy Ancients had Faith before they had and wrote Scr●…pture , they had a Rule before they had or wrote Scripture ; for where Faith is , there is a Rule for that Faith ; And if the Faith be of one Nature , the Rule is of one Nature : And since the Faith is Inward , Spiritual , begotten of the Immortal Word , in which is Life , and that the Light of men ; and that this Word , Life and Light was the Rule , then no more Book , Writing or ingraving on visible and perishable Matter can be the Rule now . Again ; Such as the Faith is , such must the Rule be : But the Faith is as before , Inward and Spirual ; therefore the Rule must be Inward and spiritual , which no meer Book can be . 2. If the Scriptures were the Rule , they must have always been a perfect Rule , ever since they were a Rule : But this is impossible , since they were many hundred years in writing and are now imperfect also , as to Number ; How then the perfect Rule ? That they were not the Perfect Rule before they were written must be granted ; and that they were many hundred Years awriting , must also be allowed ; and that they are imperfect now , as to Number , I prove . First , Enoch's Prophecy is mentioned by Jude , but not extant in the Bible ; the Books of the Wars of the Lord , Numb . 21. 14. The Book of Jasher , Josh. 10. 13. 2 Sam. 1. 18. The Book of Nathan , 2 Chron. 9. 29. The Book of Shemaiah , 2 Chron. 12. 15. The Book of Jehu ; The Epistle of Paul to the Laodiceans , Collos. 4. 16. and several others , mentioned in the Scriptures , not now extant : And lastly Luke sayes , That many took in hand to relate from Eye-Witnesses the things most surely believed , &c. Now 't is taken for granted that John wrote many Years after Luke ; Some think Luke wrote before Mark : However , Matthew and Mark were not many ; and to this day we see no more then those four in our Bibles , and therefore many such Writings lost ; and if lost , then the Scriptures not perfect ; and if imperfect , how can they be the Rule of Faith , since the Rule of Faith must be perfect ? 3. My third Reason is this ; The Scriptures , however useful to Edification and Comfort , seem not in their own Nature and Frame to have been compil'd and delivered , as the Rule and intire Body of Faith ; but rather upon particular Occasions and Emergencies . The Doctrines are scattered throughout the Scriptures , insomuch that those Societies who have given forth verbal Confessions of their Faith , have been necessitated to toss them to and fro , search here and search there , to lay down this or the other Principle ; and then as like the original Text as their Apprehensions are ; whereas , were it as plain and distinct as the Nature of a Rule requires , they needed only to have given their Subscription for a Confession . Besides , here they are Proper , there Metaphorical ; in one place Literally , in another Mystically to be accepted : Most times Points are to be prov'd by comparing and weighing Places coherent ; here to allude aptly and not wrong the Sense is difficult , and requires infallible Discerning , notwithstanding the Brawlers of our times against Infallibility : Now from all this , with abundance more that might be said , plain it is , that the Scriptures are not plain , but to the spiritual man ; but , as Peter said of Paul s Writings , in many things hard to be understood ; therefore not the Rule , which ought to be plain , proper and intelligible . 4. Again , the Scripture cannot be the Rule of Faith , because it cannot give Faith ; for Faith is the Gift of God , which overcomes the World : neither of Practice , because it cannot distinguish of it self in all Cases what ought to be practised , and what not ; it containing as well what ought not to be practised , as what ought . This was the Case of Christ's Disciples , who had no particular Rule in the old Testament Writings , for the abolishing of some part of the old Testament Religion ; on the contrary , they might have pleaded for the Perpetuity of it , because Christ said unto them , Do as they say , that sit in Moses ' s Chair , more reasonably then many make that a Plea now adayes for their invented Worships : What guided them in their declaring void and relinquishing those things ? For Instance ; God gave Circumcision as a Sign for ever ; And Paul tells the Galatians , That if they be circumcised , Christ should profit them nothing : Was not this the Spirit of Truth that leads into all Truth , that they made the Judge and Rule of their Doctrine and Practices ? So James and the Assembly of the Apostles , when they said , It seem●…th good to the Holy Ghost and to us , &c. 5. These very men that say , it is the Rule of Faith and Life , deviate in their Proof from their Assertion ; for the Scriptures no where say so of themselves . He that flyes to Meanings and Interpretations ; The Question arises not about the Truth of the Text , for that is agreed on on all hands ; but the Exposition of it : If then I yield to that Man , do I bow to the Letter of the Text , or to his Interpretation ? If the Latter , as manifestly I do , is the Scripture or that Man's Sense of it my Rule ? Nay the Person so interpreting makes not the Scripture his Rule but his own Apprehension , whatever he may say to gain Credit to his Conceptions in others ; then Mine it must needs be , I consenting thereto . 6. How shall I be assured that these Scriptures came from God ? I am bound to try all things : If all things , then Them amongst the rest . I would fain know what I must try them with ? with the Scriptures ? Then the Scriptures must be the Rule of my Examination , and Faith concerning themselves ; which is improper : If with the Spirit that gave them forth ( that searcheth the deep things of God , a measure of which is given to me to profit withal ) Then is it most congruous to call the Spirit , and not the Scriptures the Rule . 7. If the Scriptures are the Rule , they are so either in their Original or Copies : If in their Original , that is not extant , then no Rule in being ; for the last of it that was extant , was John's History at Ephesus , not seen these thousand Years : If the Copies must be the Rule , it were to be wished , we knew which were the nighest to the Original , there being above thirty in Number : This is undetermined and for ought we see indeterminable . And that which makes good what I say , are the Variety of Readings among those Copies , amounting to several thousands : And if the Copies cannot , how can the Translations be the Rule so differing from the true Sense of the Copies in many things , and one from another ? Besides , I would fain know of those of our present Age , who thus contend for the Scriptures being the Rule , &c. in Opposition to the Spirit , upon what foot they receive them into this Place and Authority ; Is it by Tradition , or Revelation ? I mean the Internal Testimony of the Spirit ; or the external Award and Avouchment of Men : If the former , they inavoidably come over to us ; for then the Spirit will , and must be both Rule and Judge ? If the latter , I ask , how are they assured that they are not miserably abused by Carelesness or Design ; since we see ( that using utmost Diligence ) both Translation , Transscription and Printing , are subject to numerous Mistakes , and those sometimes very material , against which the Scripture can be no Fence ? But admit there were no Ground for any such Objection , I further demand of our Adversaries , if they are well assured of those men that first collected , embodyed & authenticated them by a Publique Canon , which we read to have been in the Council of Laodicca , 360. Years after Christ ( though not as they are now received ) during which time they had bin tossed & tumbled ; some receiv'd , some rejected , doubtless many hundred times transscribed ; and it is not improbable that they were also abused : If they miss in their Judgment here , they are gone , till they come to us . I say , how do they know that these men rightly discerned true from sp●…rious ? Either their Judgment was infallible in the Matter , or it was not : ●…f it were , then there was such a thing as Infallibility since the Apostles Dayes , which is a Contradiction to your selves . But be it so that they were infallible ; how came you to be assured they were so ? Not by Inspiration ; that is dangerous Doctrine with you : Which way was it then ? Not by Tradition . Was it by the Scripture ? That were to say , that the Scripture tells you that those men that collected it for true , were right in their Judgment : but we are yet to finde any such place , and that is to beg the Question . I cannot see any other Ground , besides your very great Kindness to their Choice , which you call Popery , and believing as the Church believes , in other Folks . But if these men were fallible , as your own Principle makes them , and their own Determinations prove them ; what then ? doubtless your Condition will be desperate . Now , certain it is that some of the Scriptures taken in by one Council for Canonical , were rejected by another as Apocryphal ; and that which was left out by the former for Apocryphal , was taken in by the latter for Canonical . Now visible it is that they contradicted each other , and as true that they both erred , respecting the present Belief ; for your Canon and Catalogue varies from theirs , and , let me say without Offence , from any Catalogue you can produce . Behold the Labyrinth of Incertainties you run your selves into , who go from that heavenly Gift in your selves , by which the holy Scriptures are truly discerned , relished and distinguished from the Inventions and Abuses of Men ! 8. Furthermore , If the Scriptures were the Rule of Faith and Life , &c. then because they cannot be the Rule in their Translations , suppose the ancient Copies were exact , it cannot be the Rule to far the greatest part of Mankind , indeed to none but Learned men ; which neither answers the Promise relating to Gospel times , that is universal ; nor the Necessity of all Mankind for a Rule of Faith and Life . 9. That the Scriptures are not the Rule of Faith and Life , is proved from those voluminous Discourses of Cases of Conscience that are extant among us : For had the Scriptures be●… as sufficient as the Nature of the Rule of Faith and Life requireth , there had been no need of such Tracts ; every man might have read his own Condition laid down in Scripture without those numerous Supplements . Doth not your own Language and Practice prove its Insufficiency to that End , at what time you both exhort to , and go in secret to seek the Mind of the Lord in this or that important Affair ? Why do not you turn to Chapter and Verse for Satisfaction , if the Scripture be appointed of God for a Rule ? Strange ! That what is so common in the Mouths of all sorts , viz. God direct you ( that implieth Inspiration and Revelation , or immediate Council or Guiding from God ) should not be known , much less acknowledged by you in our Writings ; but overrun with such scaring Epithetes , as Enthusiasm , Familism , Fanaticism , Quakerism , &c. In short , there are a * thousand Cases , and not a few occurring almost daily , in which the Scripture cannot be our plain and distinct Rule and Guide ; yet has not God left himself without a Witness in every Bo●…om ; for his Grace has appeared unto all Men , teaching them that believe in it , to deny Ungodliness and wo●…ldly Lusts , and to live sob●…rly , righ●…eously and godly in this present evil World. And Christ Jesus the eternal Word , has for that End enlightened every Man coming into the World ( viz. ) to discover , reprove , and instruct ●…or Faith and Life . But it may be , and is objected by some ; Obj. If this Law and Light in the Conscience had been enough , what need had there been of Scripture ? Answ. The same Argument will hold against God , Christ , his Spirit and Grace , all which are sufficient , notwithstanding the Use and Benefit of Scripture . The Case was this : Man's Mind being estranged from the Light and Spirit , through its wandrings after visible and perishing things ; and in as much as the Light became thereby vailed from him , the Spirit as quenched , and the Law as defac'd , God in peculiar Mercy to the Jews , according to his Covenant with faithful ●…braham , super-added , or repeated ( as Ur●…n termes it ) the Law inward , by a Declaration of it outwardly ; that both God might not be without an outward Witness , as well as an inward ( they having so much lost the Feeling thereof ) And more deeply to strike their Minds , by their Senses ( into which their Minds were gone ) and to meet them abroad , whether they were roving and wandering from the Law and Light within . As it is great Vanity and Weakness to infer Insufficiency to the Light from the Imbecillity and Darkness that are in Men ( occasion'd through their Rebellion to the Law and Light within ) so from God's superadding Scripture , and other external Assistances to Men in that State : What would such have God , his Light and Spirit appear to , and converse with Peoples outward Senses ? That can't be : the one is too Spiritual ; the other too Carnal for any such thing . Or are they Insufficient , because they converse with Men through these exteriour things , suited to that imbecil State ? Or tell me , if the considerablest part of Script●…re be any more then the declared Knowledge and Experience o●… such as were come to a more improved State in the Teachings of that Light and Spirit , which is therefore given forth , that others loytering behind , might be the more prevailed with to follow them , as they had followed the Lord in the Light of his Spirit ? Certainly , it can never be , that Scripture should impeach the Light of insufficiency , when it is but the Mind and Teachings of the Light in others , declared or recorded . Does the Declaration jarr or make weak that from whence it came ? Or because of God s ( ondescension for a time to Externals , shall they turn the Light and Spirit out of the Office of Rule and Judge by being perpetuated the Rule and Judge ? Or is it to lay down instituted Religion ( as some ignorantly talk ) to press after that which was be●…ore , and ends those temporary things ? The Law outward , as a Rule , was but as Moses till the Son came . The Servant abideth not in the House forever . The written Law held its place but till the inward rise in more Glory and Brightness ; o●… rather , till they became more capable of being turned to it , and living with it ? In those Dayes I will write my Law in their Heart , &c. They who say otherwise of Scripture , do pervert and abuse it ; for there is nothing more clearly laid down in it , from Beginning to End , then the Rule and Reign of the Spirit . My Kingdom , said Christ , is not of this World. Again , The Kingdom of God is within : I will write my Law in their Hearts , and place my Fear in th●…ir inward parts . All thy Children shall be taught of the ●…ord , and in Righteousness shall they be established . I will pour out my Spirit on all Flesh. The Grace of God that brings Salvation , hath appeared to all Men , teaching , &c. Obj. But if the ●…aw engraven and delivered to Moses , was a Rule to the Jews ; why should not the Law deliverd by Christ , and written by his Apostles , be the Rule to Christians ? Answ. Christ left nothing in writing as the Rule that we hear of ; and it is not to be thought he was less faithful in his House then Moses : And doubtless , had he intended the Rule of his Followers to have been a written Rule , he would have left it upon record with all Punctuality , This must be believed , and that done , on Pain of eternal Death . Nor did his Followers write in the Method of a Rule , as the Law was written ; nor did they so call or recommend what they writ . But this leads me to my 8th Reason why the Scriptures cannot be the Rule under the New Covenant , &c. For admitting the Law written by Moses were the Rule ( A Rule I grant it was ) to the Jew outward ; yet Christ the spiritual Leader , of a spirit●…al Israel writeth his spiritual Law in the Heart , as Moses , the outward Israel's Leader writ the Law upon Tables of Stone . This was God's Promise , the Priviledge and Blessing of the new Covenant , that as the outward Jew had an outward Law , for a Directory , the inward Jew should have an inward Law for his Directory : And as the outward Jew had an outward Priest at whose Mouth he ought to seek the Law ; so the Jew inward , and Circumcision in Spirit , has an inward and Spiritual High-Priest , whose Lips preserve Knowledge ; at whose Mouth he is to receive the Law of Life . And this is his Rule , who is the Ruler of his People Israel , who reigneth in Righteousness , and of the Increase of whose heavenly Government there shall be no End. The King , Ruler , Judge , Law-giver , High-priest , Law , Rule , Temple , are all Spiritual : so the Scriptures inform us ; My Kingdom said Christ , is not of this World. Again . The Kingdom of God is within : I will write my Law in their Hearts , and place my Fear in their inward Parts . They shall be all taught of me ; and in Righteousness shall they be established , The Tabernacle of God is with Man ; He will dwell with them , I will pour out my Spirit on all Flesh. The Grace hath appeared to all M●…n , teaching , &c. A Measure of the Spirit is given to all Men to profit withal . The Inspiration of the Almighty giveth Understanding . Whatsoever may be known of God is manifest within . walk in the Spirit : If ye walk in the Light , &c. Come let us walk in the Light of the Lord. And there needed neither Sun nor Moon to shine ; for the Glory of God did lighten it , and the Lamb was the Light thereof . As many as walk according to this Rule , Peace be on them and the whole Israel of God , &c. What Rule ? Not that of the old legal Creation that passed away ; but the Rule of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or new Creation as it may be rendred : And as Drusius cites one to have interpreted it ; and Grotius also interprets it ; which is the Way of Life Isaiah spoak of , An High-Way there shall be , and it shall be called the Way of Holiness ; the Unclean shall not pass over it , and wayfaring Men , though Fools , shall not e●…r therein : There shall be no Lyon there , nor ravenous Beast go thereon , but the redee●…d shall walk there ; which Way , Teach●… , Guide , Rule , Light , Spirit , andholy Unction that directs & keepeth in steady Paths of Truth , is Christ Jesus our Lord. Obj. But do you not tur●… the Scriptures off , sor an uncertain & un●…rviceable Writing , and as good as reject and deny them altogether ? Answ. There is a late Author or two , who to depaint us as ugly as their Malice could invent , have rendered themselves so ridiculous , as so to infer : But it is not my Business at this time to medle with particular Controversie ; that followeth in the second Part , and shall therefore attend to answer the general Objection . The Scriptures are uncertain upon your Foundation , but not upon ours . Doth our mani●…esting your Faith concerning them to be grounded upon your own Imaginations or human Traditions , make void or render uncertain the Scriptures ? By no means ; but we would have you come to receive them upon the Spirit 's Testimony and Evidence that gave them forth : And though we cannot allow them to be the Rule of Faith and Life under the Dispensation of the Gospel , which is Power and Life it self ; yet are they to be read , believed and fulfilled under the Gospel . For notwithstanding the Law written upon Stone , was not Paul's Rule , after the Son of God was revealed in him ; yet the Son of God taught Paul to fulfil the Righteousness declared by that Law : If it were to deny and reject ( as some Persons enviously say of us ) yea , to vilifie the Scripture , because we cannot allow it to be the Rule , &c. Paul must be said to deny , reject and vilifie the Law written , at what time the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus became his Rule . There is a great Difference in asserting , that the Spirit is the Rule , and casting away & vilifying of Scripture : And indeed it is but an old Fetch of the Devil 's , to pretend Honour to the Letter , that he might the more unsuspectedly oppose the bringing in of the Dispensation of the Spirit ; which the Letter it self testifies to . They that come to be led of the Spirit , arrive at the End for which Scripture was given forth ; the Apostle John did as good as say the same thing , when he told them to whom he wrote , That the Anointing which they had received and abode in them , would lead them i●…to all Truth ; and that they needed not that any man should teach them : To deny this to have been the Saints Teacher , is to deny as plain a Proposition as is in the whole Scripture ; and that one Age of Christianity should have one Rule , and another Age another Rule ; that , the Spirit ; we , but the Letter ; is more then any Man can prove : yet did John's so writing invalid the Scripture , or vilifie his own Epistle ? Certainly , none will talk so idly . How then doth our lifting up the Light and Spirit of Christ , which fulfils the Scriptures ( by bringing such as are led thereby to enjoy the good things therein declared ) reject and vilifie the Scriptures ? Does our living up to them by an higher Rule make us to deny and reprobate them ? Erasmus and Grotius think them , then most to be valued , when men are Witnesses of them : see on 2 Pet. 1. 19 , 20. I do acknowledge they contain an Account of several heavenly Prophecies , godly Reproofs and Instructions that ought to be obeyed . Obj If so Then how are they not a Rule of Faith and Life . Answ. A Rule and the Rule , are not one and the same thing . By the Rule of Faith and Life , I understand , the living , spiritual , immediate , omnipresent , discovering , ordering Spirit of God : And by a Rule , some Instrument , by and through which this great Rule may convey its Direction : Such a subordinate , secondary and d●…claratory Rule we never said several parts of Scripture were not ; yet the Reason of our Obedience , is not meerly because they are there written ; that were legal ; but because they are the eternal Precepts of the Spirit in Mens Consciences , there repeated and declared . I●… is the T●…stimony of the Spirit that is the true Rule for believing and understanding of any or all the Scripture ; therefore not the Scripture , but the Spirit of Truth must be the Rule for mens believing , understanding , &c. Thus held the Ancients . T●…rtullian saith , Worldly Wisdom the Lord calls Foolishne ss he hath chosen the soolish things of the World to the confounding of Philosophy ; for that is the Matter of Worldly Wisdom , a divine Interpreter of the divine Nature and Disposings . Justin Martyr in Exposit. ●…id . The Interpretation of the Scriptures is to be a commodated to the Will of the Doctrine of the Spirit ; and not to human Reasonings . Hieron saith , The Scriptures ( mus●… be ) opened with spiritual Exposition . Epiphanius saith , Only ●…o the Children of the holy Ghost all the Scriptures are plain and cle●…r . Nor were the most approved Protestants of any sort ( who have been so reputed in Opposition to Popery ) of another mind . It is the Substance of the sourth Article exhibited against the Lutherans in the Council of Trent , as an Erroneous Doctrine they held , That to understand the Scripture , neither G●…oss nor Comment is necessary ; but only to have the Spirit of a Sheep of Christ's Pasture . Erasmus tells us , What Man sets forth by Man's De●…ice , may be received by Man's Wit : But the thing that is set forth by the Inspira●…ion of the Holy Ghost , requireth an Interpreter inspired with the like Spirit ; and without the Inspiration of it the Secrets of God cannot be known . Luther giveth us his Mind thus , The Scriptures are not to be understood , but by that very Spirit by which they were writ . Peter Martyr , that famous Italian Protestant , teacheth us , The Spirit is the Abettor , by which we must assure our selves for understanding of the Scriptures , that thereby we must discern between Christ's Words , and a Strangers ( quoting Christ's Words ) My Sheep know my Voice , and several other places of Scriptures . Again , The Spirit of God rev●…aleth the Truth in the Scriptures . H. Bullinger Decad. 4. Serm. 8. Men ●…etch the Understanding of Heavenly Things , and Kno●…ge of the Holy Ghost from NOWHERE ELSE , but from the same Spirit . John Bradford answerd to the Arch-Bishop of York thus , We know the Scriptures , as Christ's Sheep , by the same Spirit that wrote and spake them , being thereby assured , &c. Calvin teacheth thus in his Institutes : It is necessary the same Spirit that spake by the Mouth of the Proph●…ts , should pierce into our Hearts , to perswade us , that they faithfully delivered that which was committed to them of God. Beza saith , That the Way of understanding Prophecies , and referring them to the right Scope , must be sought or fetcht from the same Spirit , which dictated them to the Prophets themselves , and more to that purpose . W. Tindal , call'd the English Apostle by J. Fox , saith , It is impossible to understand in the Scriptures more then a Turk , for any that hath not the Law of God writ in the Heart to sulfil it . Bp. Jewel thus against Harding , The Spirit of God is bound neither to Sharpness of Wit , nor to Abundance of Learning : Flesh and Blood is not able to understand the Holy Will of God , without SPECIAL REVELATION : Without this SPECIAL HELP and PROMPTING OF GOD's SPIRIT , the Scripture is to the Reader , be he never so Wis●… and well-Learned , as the Vision of a sealed Book . D. Ames , a great Father of the Independents , saith upon Bellarmin's word●… ; The Anointing of the Holy Spirit doth teach the Faithful , to understand those things which they received of the Apostles ; therefore to understand the Scriptures in those things which are necessary to Salvation , with more to that purpose . Vatabl●…s on Job 32. 8. with Drusius , Clarius and others , speak to the same effect . G. Cr●…dock , a famous Independent - Preacher , preacht , That the Scripture is a Speechless thing without the Spirit . Ch. Goad , an eminent Separatist's Works , styl'd B. D. of K. Colledge in Cambridge , and an Independent Pastor , thus ta●…ght , There is no Knowledge of Christ , nor of the Scripture , but by Revelation . D. J. Owen , a man of greatest Fame among the present Independents , saith , The publick , authentick and infallible Interpreter of the holy Scripture , is HE who is the AUTHOR of them ; from the BREATHING OF WHOSE SPIRIT IT DERIVETH ALL ITS VERITY , PERSPICUITY AND AUTHORITY . So that we see upon the Judgment of many considerable Persons , the Scripture is no Rule for our believing and understanding of it self ; therefore not The Rule of Faith and Practice , co●…cerning the things therein declared . I will give a short Instance in Christ's words , about Regeneration ; He taught ( and strange it was , no doubt , to wise Nicodemus ) That unl●…ss a Man be born again , he cannot see the Kingdom of God. This is as plain a Proposition as can be laid down , and may be credited Historically ; But what is that to any ●…s New Birth , that they are never like to 〈◊〉 ●…formed of there ? Nor can that Scripture be my Rule in that Heavenly Travail , respecting the many and wonderful Tryals and Exercises , that are to be met with in it ; neither can any other Writing whatever : This only is the Office of that Spirit & Word immortal , by which I am anew begotten ; Who then is my Rule to inform , order , strengthen and lead through the whole Experience , but the same Spirit ? All Doctrinal Scripture was experienced before written ; or they had not been true Witnesses who wrote it . Now that which was their Rule can only guide us into the same Experiences ; nor are they to be known before experienced : Do my Will , and you shall know more of my Doctrine , saith Christ. I read the History of such things ; This saves not : Neither can the History be the Rule leading into the Mystery ; That belongs only to the Spirit , that searcheth the deep things of God. Consequently the Spirit , and not the Scripture , is the Rule for so believing and living . Obj. But is not this to make void the Protestants Plea against the Papists , That the Scriptures are the Rule of Faith and Practice ? Answ. No such matter : For the Question was not , Whether the Spirit of Christ or the Scripture was the Rule , But , Whether the Scripture , God's Tradition , or Popish Traditions , were the Rule to measure the Truth of Doctrines and Practices by ? We grant , that particular Scriptures , rightly understood , may measure what is agreeable or disagreeable to them ; that is , such Doctrines and Practices as are contrary to that part of Scripture more particularly relating to our dayes , are questionable by the Scripture ; especially since all Parties pretend what they say and do is according to Scripture : Yet this concludes not the Scripture to be the General and Evangelical Rule . Obj. But if God had not revealed those things that are in Scripture by it to us , ●…ow could they have been known by us ? Answ. They were known by the Light and Spirit of Christ before written ( from whence they are call'd Scripture ) Therefore it is said , That the Prophets searched diligently what , and what manner of Time the Spirit of Christ , that was in them , did signifie , when it testified before-hand of the Sufferings of Christ. Nor are they ever the more reveal'd to the blind and dark Mind , because there written : The Mysteries of Regeneration are as puzling to Natural Wit and Earthly Wisdom , as before ; Therefore well said Epiphanius , Only to the Children of the Holy Ghost all the Holy Scriptures are plain and easie . Mens going to hammer out Principles , without that infallible Guide and Rule , hath been the Cause of that great Confusion that is over Mankind about Religion . Obj. But how could you have known those Prophecies to be true , for that is not matter of Witnessing , but Fore-telling ? Answ. That is an extraordinary Revelation , not falling within the ordinary Discoveries absolutely necessary to mans Salvation ; but to shew his Power & Faithfulness , that he is God , and can and will fore-tell , and bring to pass : But therefore must there be an Extraordinary Light or Spirit , and not rather an Extraordinary Sight and Se●…ne from one and the same Light and Spirit in them ? Besides , That which gives me to believe and savour it to be from the Spirit , and not by Imposture , is my Rule for believing it . Now that the Spirit so doth , Calvin and Beza too , as before cited , assert for me , viz. The same Spirit , that spake by the Mouth of the Prophets , must pierce into our Hearts , to perswade us , that they faithfully declared that which was committed to them of God. Obj. But this Light you speak of could not tell you which way Sin came into the World ; That there was an Adam and Eve , that they fell after that manner , & that Sin so entered the World ; That Christ was born of a Virgin , suffered Death and rose again ; That you ought not to Swear in any case , &c. if the Scriptures had not told you so . Answ. That is boldly said : But consider well ; Moses ( sayes the vulgar Opinion ) had that Account above Two Thousand Years after the Creation , by Revelation , which we find in Genesis . Now that there could be no Revelation without this Divine Light or Spirit , which is the Life of the Eternal , Creating Word , must needs be granted : For the Spirit of God knoweth only the Things of God ; and whatever makes manifest is Light : And that the Spirit and Light are one , though two Names , has been sufficiently evidenced . If then it was this Light of the Eternal Word , that delivered these past things to Moses , and gave that Prospect of future things to the Prophets , as no doubt it was ( if Scripture be indubitable ) then to say , the Light or Spirit could not do it , is Blasphemous . Again , To argue , because the Light does not reveal every Circumstance of History to each Individual that hath already an Account , that therefore it could not , is ridiculous : Were the History of the Transactions of Christ and his Followers wanting , as before Moses , was that of Adam and his Posterity ; and that the Lord saw it needful to acquaint Mankind therewith , no doubt but the Light and Spirit , which revealed the Account of the Creation above Two Thousand Years after to Moses , and fore-told several Hundred Years many of those Transactions of Christ , by the Prophets , would also have supplyed that Want : But inasmuch as an Account is extant , and therefore not needed , 't is vain to make that Objection . Again , It does not follow , because every man has a Measure of Light to inform and rule him , that therefore he must needs know all which that Light knows , or is able to reveal to him : I return that Argument thus upon our Adversaries . They say , they have the Spirit of God ; Then they know all that the Spirit of God knows , or can reveal to them : If the latter be absurd ; then the former . Again , say they , The Light within did not reveal Christ to the Gentiles ; that Christ should be born of a Virgin , &c. therefore insufficient : I return upon them thus ; The Spirit of God , given to the Children of Israel , Neh. 9. 20. did not acquaint them that Christ should be born of a Virgin , nor much more of his Life and Bodily Transactions ; therefore the Spirit of God was insufficient . The like may be concluded against the Spirit in the Prophets : For 't is manifest from 1 Pet. 1. 10 , 11. that the Spirit had not revealed to all the Prophets the Time of Christ's Appearance and Sufferings ; was the Spirit therefore an insufficient Rule to them ? But that which falls heaviest upon our Adversaries is this , That the Scriptures , by their own Argument , are a most imperfect Account themselves of what was done , not relating the hundredth part of things ; therefore as insufficient in not relating what is behind , as they would weakly render the Light or Spirit in not revealing to every Individual those things already related : Nay , they may as well infer Insufficiency to the Spirit , or the Light within , in that it does not now shew all that shall be to the End of the World , which in their proper Seasons there will be a Necessity to know , as to reflect insufficiency upon it , &c. because it did not foretel things now past , to ●…ormer Ages , or needlesly reveal them over again to us in this Age. Neither is History , or can it be the Rule of that Faith and ●…ife we speak of , which are absolutely necessary to Salvation ; which is the Faith that not History , but God gives , that works not by History , but Love , & overcomes the Wo●…ld ; which Millions of Historical Believers are overcome by , and wallow in the Spirit and Practice of ; And the Rule must be answerable to the Nature and Workings of the Faith : so in Point of good Life , which is Duty done . Now History , though it inform me of others Actions ; yet it does not follow , that it is the Rule of Duty to me . since it may relate Actions not imitable , as in the Case of Adam and Eve in several Respects , and Christ's being born of a Virgin , dying for the Sins of the World , &c. wherefore this cannot be the Rule of Duty : The like may be said of the Jewish Story , that was the particular Concern and Transaction of that People . Obj. But these things ought to be believed . Answ. I say so too , where the History has reached , and the Spirit of God hath made a Convict●…on upon the Conscience ; which , sayes D. J. Owen , as before , gives them Authority , Verity and Perspicuity : But where this History has not reached any People , or they dye ignorant of it , they are not responsible for not believing any such Passages , as saith Bp. Sanderson . 'T is one thing to say , The Scriptures ought to be read , believed and fulfilled ; and another thing to say , They are the Evangelical Rule of Faith and Life : For when I read , believe and witness them fulfilling , I must needs have a Rule to read , understand , believe and witness them fulfilling by ; which being the Divine Light and Spirit of Christ , that , and not themselves must be my Rule for so Reading , Understanding , Believing , &c. And surther , to prove that the Light and Spirit within the Heathens was sufficient to discover these things : 'T is granted on all hands , that the Sibylls had divine Sights ; I mean not those made in their Name by some Professors of Christianity , as is charged on them , to gain Authority upon the Gentiles , against which Blundel writes ; But those acknowledged , Who prophesied of a Virgin 's bringing forth a Son ; and that he should destroy the Serpent , and replenish the Earth with Righteousness , as is before cited out of Virgil , who took it out of the Remains of Cumaa's Verses , then among the Romans . And for the Practical Part of the Objection , viz. How should we have known it had been Unlawful to Swear at all in any Case , if Mat. 5. 34. had not been ( which is of most weight in this Case , because matter of Duty , and called particularly by some , an Evangelical Precept , being a Step above the Righteousness of the Law outward among the Jews ) I have this to say in Solution of my Adversaries Objection , Reprehension of his Ignorance , and for Proof , by his own Argument of the Light 's Sufficiency . There were among the Jews themselves , long before Christ came , an entire People , that would not Swear , to wit , the Esseni : They keep their Promises ( sayes Josephus ) and account every Word they ●…peak of more Force then if they had bound it with an Oath : And they shun Oaths worse then Perjury ; for they esteem him condemned for a Lyar , who without it is not believed . Philo writes to the same purpose ; and taught himself , that it was best to abstain from Swearing ; that ones Word might be taken instead of an Oath . And Pythagoras , in his Oration to the Crotonian Senators , exhorted them thus , Let no man attest God by Oath , though in Courts of Judicature ; but use to speak such things that he may be credited without Oath . The Scythians are said to tell Alexander of themselves , Think not that Scythians confirm their Friendship by Oath ; They Swear by keeping their Word . And Clinias , a Greek , and Follower of Pythagoras , rather chose to suffer the Fine of Three Talents ( which make 300 l. English ) then to lessen his Veracity by taking an Oath : Which Act was greatly commended of Bafilius , who upbraided the Christians of his time with it ; Thereby ( after our Adversaries Way of drawing Consequences ) preferring the Light of the Gentiles before the Light of the Christians : though indeed the Light was and is alwayes one in it self ; but the Christian did not live up so closely to it as the Heathe●… did , and therefore had a greater Liberty , and walked in a broader Way . I would now know of our Opposers , if they can yet think the Light that preach'd in the Mount , that Doctrine was one with that Light that shined in the Consciences of those Gentiles , so many Hundred Years before that Sermon was writ or preached ; who so plainly believed , practised and taught it ; yea , or nay . Perhaps some of them , through the abundance of their Envy , Pride and Passion , will yet stick out , while the more moderate may submit to such Evidence , and conclude Ignorance and Folly to have made all this Opposition against us , and that of a Truth , The Voice which cryed , Prov. 8. 4 , 6. Unto you , O men , I call , and my Voice is to the Sons of men ; hear , for I will speak Excellent things , was heard by the Gentiles : and that what concerned Doctrine to Holy Living , was not hid from them ; I mean , evangelically so , provided Christ's Heavenly Sermon upon the Mount , related by Matthew , may be esteemed such ; for their Writings flow with Amens thereunto . But admitting to our Adversaries , that the Voice was then so low , and the Manifestation of the Light so small , as it discovered not many of those things before-mentioned ; could that give any reasonable men Ground to conclude , Therefore the Divine Wisdom or Light was insufficient ; or that the Divine Wisdom or Light was not then , and should not in other Ages , become the Rule and Guide of the Children of men , however promised ? Yet such false Consequences have been the Corner-Stone and Foundation of our Adversaries Building against us ; And no reasonable man , I think , will clear it from being a Sandy one . OF THE Judge of Controversie . I Shall explain what I mean by the Termes : A Judge , is one that has not only Power to determine , but Discerning to do it rightly . Controversie , is a Debate between two Parties about the Truth or Falshood of any Proposition to be determined by that Judge . From whence I am led to assert , that The Judge of Controversie must be Infallible . And though this may seem strange to some , 't is nevertheless true in it self : For if the Judge be fallible , however he by his Authority may determine the Persons controverting into Silence ; yet it does not follow , that he has given true Judgment , since he may as wel , nay , rather , determine falsly , then truly : so that Controversie can never be rightly determined by a fallible Judge , therefore no true Judge of Controversie . Indeed it is absurd , and a Contradiction in it self to think otherwise ; since he that is uncertain can never give a certain Decision ; and if not a certain one , then none to the Purpose . Nor ought any Person , no otherwise judged , that is perswaded of the Truth of his Cause , to let fall his Belief upon so fallible a Determination ; since he not only moves without Conviction , but against Conviction ; And which is worse , he is not ascertained of the Truth of what he is required to submit to : Therefore of all People they are most condemnable , who keep so great a stir about Religion , and that sometimes use coercive Means to compass their designed Uni●…ormity , and yet acknowledge to us , they are not certain of their own Faith ; unless it be those who notwithstanding yield to such uncertain Imposers . Since then the Judge must be infallible , it will be worth our while to consider , where ' this insallible Judge is to be found . There is none Good but God , said God himself , when manifested in the Flesh , that is , originally , or as of himself ; so truly there is none infaltible but God , as of himself , yet as the supream Good , is communicated unto man according to measure ; so ( well sayes Bp. Lati●…er ) is there infallibility , Certainty or Assurance of the Truth of things given to man according to Capacity ; otherwise men should be oblieg'd to believe and obey , and that upon Damnation , those things , concerning which there can be no Certainty whether they be true or false . Immanuel , God with men , as he is their Rule , so their Judge ; he is the Law-giver , and therefore the best Irterpreter of any Point that may concern his own Law : and men are so far infallible as they are subject to his Voice , Light or Spirit in them , and no farther ; for , humanum est errare , Man is Errable . Nor can any thing rescue him out of Error , or preserve him from the Infections of it , but the sound or certain Judgment God , by his Light or Spirit within , assists him with . Obj. But is not the Scripture the Judge of Controversie ? Answ. How can that be , since the Q●…estion most times arises about the Meaning of Scripture ? Is there any place tells us , without all Interpretation , whether the Socinian or Trinitarian be in the Right , in their differing Apprehensions of the Three that bear Record , & c ? also the Homousian and Arrian about Christ's Divinity ; or the Papists or Protestants about Trans-substantiation ? If then things are undefined and undetermined , I mean , expresly in the Scripture ; and that the Question arises about the Sense of it , doth the Scripture determine which of those Interpreters hit the Mark ? As this is absurd to think , so must it be acknowledged , that if Interpretation decide the Matter in Controversie , not the Scripture , but the Interpreter is the Judge . Now this Interpreter must either interpret by his own meer Wisdom or Spirit , called by the Apostle , 1 Cor. 2. II. the Spirit of a Man ; who by weighing the Text , consulting the Intent of the Writer , comparing places together , gives the Judgment , which the Scripture cannot do ; or , from the Spirit of God , which gives Understanding , as Job 3●… . 8. and as the same Apostle saith , searcheth the deep things of God : If the first , then a Fallible ; If the last , then an Infal●…ible Judge . I would sain know , whether it was the Scripture or the Holy Ghost that presided among the Apostles , when they were come together , Acts 15. when they said , It seemeth good to the ●…oly Chost and to us , &c. If the Holy Ghost , give us a plain Scripture to prove we are to have another Judge now ; If not , then we must have the same , and consequently an Infallible Judge . Obj. 'T is granted that the Spirit is Infallible : But how shall I know that any man determines a thing by this Spirit , and does not rather obtrude his own Sense upon us , under that specious Pretence . Answ. By the same Spirit ; As well said Gualt . Cradock . The Way to know whether the Spirit be in us is its own Evidence ; And that is the Way to know it in others too : and the man hat hath the Spirit , may know the Spirit in another ; There is , saith be , a kind of Sagacity in the Saints to this Purpose . Which is also true in the Sense of abundance of P●…otestant Writers ; For as they held , That no man could know the Scriptures , but by the same Spirit ; so consequently that the same Spirit only could assure him of the Truth of the said I●…terpretation . And Peter Martyr , as before quoted , tells us , The Holy Ghost is the Arbiter or Judge . Also D. J. Owen s●…ith , That the Holy Ghost is the Only Authentick Interpreter of the Scripture : I●… Authentick , then Infallible ; if Infallible , then the Judge of the Mind of Scripture is both an Only and an 〈◊〉 Judge . But to wave this ; Does not the same Objection lie aga●…st the Sense of Scripture , since one sayes , this is the Sense , and another that ? To know God's Mind , men must come to God's Spirit , else Difficulties of that sort are unsurmountable . In short ; It were greatly to be wisht , that all men would hold themselves unconcerned in disputing about what they have not received an Infallible Dictamen from the Holy Spirit upon ; since they beat but the Air , and obtain no solid Satisfaction , neither can they : God never prostrates his Secrets to Minds disobedient to what they do already know : Let all practise what they assuredly know to be their Duty , and be sparing in their search after nice and unknown Matters . Weighty and seasonable was and is the Apostle's Saying , Nevertheless , whereunto we have already attained , let us walk by the same Rule ; where he both limits to the present Knowledge communicated , and exhorts to live up to that ; and if any thing be further necessary , God in due time will reveal it by his Spirit , that gives to know , discern and judge of the things that are of God. Obj. But how will this determin the Controversie , and allay the Fury of Debates on foot ? Answ. Nothing like it , if man adhere to it ; and if he does not , there is no way left , but the Wrath that is to be reveal'd : But most Perswasions are agreed about the absolute Necessaries in Religion , from that Witness God has placed in man's Conscience , viz. That God is ; That he is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek him ; That the Way of God is a Way of Purity , Patience , Meekne ss , &c. without which no man can see the Lord : Nay , they accord in some considerable Matters superadded , as some of them speak , to wit , That God manifested himself extraordinarily in the Flesh ; that he gave his Life for the World , that such as believe and obey his Grace , receive Remission of Sins and Life Everlasting . Now , I say , since these things men generally submit to , let them live up hereunto ; and forbear wanton Scrutinies after Things or Notions that gender to Strife and Contention , and leave not Mankind better , but rather worse then they found them ; and the World would be soon rid of Controversie : Holy Living , and not Disputing , would be the Business of Mankind . What more excellent Judgment can be given , then that men quit their Contentions about Notions and Opinions , and betake themselves to the Practice of that which God hath already shewn unto them ; as spake both the Prophet Micah 6. 8. and the Apostle Paul , Rom. 1. 19. And if any thing be revealed to one more then another , let the rest judge in the Spirit , or be silent till God manifest more to them , in order to Right Judgment . 'T is good to try all things ; but we must have something to try them by ; and what ought that to be , but the Spirit that searcheth , & the Anointing that teaches all things , which is Truth it self . Here Mankind will live in Love , having at least Natural Affections ( now lost , by the B●…rbarity of some of their cruel Religions ) and a Judgment o●… things will be made , not from the Rash , Partial , Short sighted a d Froward Mind of man , but that eternal Light and Spirit that never erred ; which , however disgustful to some Protestants in this Age , was no False Doctrine in the Account of John Philpot and Bp. Latimer , two great Founders of the Reformation : The first in his Answer to the Bishop of Chichester , reproving his Confidence about true Faith in Christ ; saying . These Hereticks take upon them to be sure of all things they stand in . Let him doubt ( saith John Philpot ) of his Faith that listeth ; God give me alwayes to believe that I am sure of true Faith and Favour in Christ. The second , in his Answer to a Knight , objecting the Uncertainty of Man in what he calls Truth , thus recorded by J. Fox ; Your Friends deny not , but that certain Truths are communicated to us according to Capacity : But as to my Presumption and Arrogancy ; either I am certain or uncertain that it is Truth that I preach ; if it be Truth , why may not I say so ? if I be uncertain , why dare I be so bold as to preach it ? And if your Friends be Preachers themselves , after their Sermon , I pray you ask them , Whether they be certain and sure they preach the Truth or no ; and send me word what they say , that I may learn to speak after them . If they say they be sure , you know what follows ; if they say they be unsure , when shall you be sure , that have so doubtful and unsure Teachers . Let not Protestants for Shame judge us for owning a Doctrine , that is confessed to and confirmed by some of the Worthiest of their own Ancestors , viz. That an Infallible Judgment in things necessary to Salvation , is both possible and requisite ; and that God communicates it by his Spirit to the Souls of men . The Conclusion . TO Conclude ; Immanuel ( a word suited not only to that Appearance , but whole Dispensation ) imports , God nigh to or with men ; The Tabernacle of God is with men ; he will dwell in them , and walk in them ; they shall be all taught of me , and in Righteousness shall they be established : And this admits not of any Book , or literal Rule or Judge to come between that in-dwelling Light , Life and Wisdom of God , and the Soul , as its Rule of Faith and Life . And because it is the unutterable Goodness of God to People in these latter Dayes , as the Sum of Scripture-Prophecy , thus to make known himself ; we are incessant in our Cries unto them , that they would turn in their Minds ( now abroad , and taking up their Rest in the Externals of Religion ) that they may hear his Heavenly Voice and Knocks , and let him in , and be taught of him to know and do his Will , that they may come to be experienced and expert in the School of Christ : For never Man spoak and taught , as he livingly speaks and teaches in the Consciences of those who diligently hear him , and are willing to be taught of him the Knowledge of his Wayes : The Priest was Outward , but he is now Inward ; the Law Outward , but it is now Inward : And he is no more a Jew that is one outward ; nor that Circumcision which is outward in the Flesh ; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly , and Circumcision is that of the Heart , in the Spirit , and not in the Letter , whose Praise is not of Men , but of God. Which is so far from lessening the Scriptures of Truth , that unless this be man's Rule and Judge in the reading and believing of them , he can never , either understand them , or keep the things therein contain'd aright . And indeed , as before I have expressed , I cannot but say , That Man , whilst unregenerated , setting his Wit and Wisdom to fathom and comprehend the Intention of the Holy Ghost in many of those Writings , hath occasioned that Confusion , Darkness and perplext Controversie , that now so lamentably pesters the World ; In which State , for all the External Imitations of the Ancients in some temporary and visible Parts of Worship , I am to tell such from the Spirit of the Lord God of all Truth , they will never be accepted . The utmost of that literal Knowledge , historical Faith , and outward Religion , is at best but the Old Heavens that are to be wrapped up as a Scroul , the Old Wine and Bottle that belong not to the Kingdom , and Man's holding true Words in an unregenerated and unrighteous Nature , where he may cry , Lord , Lord ; but shal●… never enter into the Rest that is Eternal : For under such a Faith and Religion , Envy , Wrath , Malice , Persecution , Pride , Passion , Worldly-Mindedness , &c. may and do live ; yea , and are cloaked , as with a secure Cover from the Stroak of God's Spirit ; insomuch , as when any are moved of the Lord to decry such fair and hypocritical Shews of Religion , they are reputed Rash and Censorious , and presently a Plea must he made on this wise ; Do not we follow the Commands of the Scripture ? Did not such and such do so and so ? Never regarding from what Grounds the Performance springs , whether it be according to the Rule of the NEW or OLD Creature ; bu●… abuse and vilifie us for making such Distinctions , as if the Prayers , Preachings , Singings , outward Baptizings and Suppings , &c. of Men in their own Spirits , Strength and Will were required and accepted of God for Evangelical Worship : Thick Darkness and dangerous Presumption ! Thus are Men out of the Way concerning both Faith and Practice , and the true Rule and Judge of them : They make the former to lie in an Assent of the Understanding to such Propositions , and in the performing of some visible Parts of Religion in their own Spirits and Wills ( which is far from the Immanuel-State ) And the latter to be the Scriptures , which is but an Account of those Things , which others were ruled to and directed in by the Holy Spirit , before they were ever recorded or made Scripture ; and not another Rule or Judge can so regulate : For as the Faith and Experience , so the Rule and Judge of that Faith and that Experience must be one : God by his Spirit begets Faith ; God by his Spirit rules Faith , and governs the Life of his Children ; for as many as are Children of God are led by the Spirit of God. The Scripture , much of it , is but a Declaration of Faith and Experience ; therefore not the Rule or Judge : For as Faith and Experience were before Scripture , so the Rule and Judge before Scripture ; because , as I said before , there is a Rule and Judge as soon as there is Faith ; therefore the Scripture is not that Rule or Judge : And before that Declaration be answered by any , they must come to the Faith , Rule and Judge of which that is a Declaration : So that Faith is yielding up to the Requirings of God's Spirit in us , in full Assurance of the Remission of Sins , through the Son of his Love and Life Everlasting , from whence daily flow Works of Holiness well-pleasing to God , and not a meer Assent of the Understanding to a verbal , though a true Proposition . The Life of a true Christian stands not in Bodyly Exercise ; that , sayes the Apostle , profits little : nor in an Imitation of the Ancients in temporary things , which as well the Hypocrite as the Saint can do ; But in self-Denyal and walking in the Spirit , to bring forth the Fruits thereof unto all Godliness , which is the pure and spiritual Obedience , resulting from the living spiritual Faith of God's Elect , and the Rule & Judge thereof is their Author or Begetter , even the Spirit of Truth , which alone gives saving Understanding , and searcheth the deep things of God. O you Professors of Religion , that you would but seriously weigh these things , and examine your selves in God's Sight , who respects none for their fair Out-sides , If this saving Faith be your Faith , and this Heavenly Life be your Life , and if the holy Spirit be your Ruler and Leader ; if not , you are but legal , formal , in the Oldness of the Letter , and Runnings in your own Will , which obtains not : in which State , not the Wisdom from above , but that which is from below , of the old Creature , is your Rule ; in it you read Scripture , expound it , pray , preach , sing & perform all your Duties : and this is not to walk according to the Rule of the New Creature ; but in a legal Spirit to make a Gospel-Profession , the End of which , from the Lord , I am to tell you , will be a Bed of Sorrow . Therefore resist not the Light and Spirit within , but turn at the Reproof thereof , that you may come to walk in the Way of Life , daily Life to your Souls , that so you may be quickned and made alive to God , and live to him in that Life , which is hid with Christ in God ; that being thus born again , and become renewed in your inner Man , you may perform that pure and spiritual Worship , which is of a sweet Savour with the Lord ; so shall he bless you with his Heavenly Blessings , and daily replenish your Souls with the unspeakable Joyes of his glorious Salvation : This I heartily desire , and through all Difficulties incessantly travail for in Body , Soul and Spirit , that the al-wise , omnipotent God may be known , served , obeyed , to and by you , to your Comfort , and his Eternal Honour , who alone is worthy to receive it , now and forever , Amen William Penn. Errata for the First Part. REader , Several Errors have escaped the Press , partly through the Author 's frequent Absence , and the Printer's many other Occasions ; but the most considerable of them are here noted , and thou art desired hereby to correct them . Contents — Chap. 9 line 3. dele ( , ) after Scriptures . Preface — Page 1. Margent dele Milt . p. 2. l. 1. read at last . p. 5. l. 2 & 3. for Ab. rogation r. Ab●…uration . l. 25. for the read that : p. 7. l 2 : read in their Hopes . l. 14. read that at . page 9. l. 10. for disclaim'd read declam d. line 19. read — faciunt . page 10. line 32. for reduct read reduc'd . page 19. line 8. for but read by . line 31. read too irksom . page 22. line 4. for Hammer read Humor . pag. 24. line 19. begin a Parenthesis at ( And my ] and conclude it line 30. after [ Dominion ) Book — Page 8. line 42. b●…ot out self . p. 13 l. 38. for paws read pause . p. 17. l. 12. for without read with our . pag. 18. l. 25. read was to be . l. 31 for it self read himself . p. 20. l. 40 for these read those . p. 21. l. 34. for Who , Me ? read Who ? Me , p. 23 l. 26. for is read are . p 26. l. 7. for this before Light ? read this Light before ? page 28 l. 10. for at that time read at thi●… time . p. 30. l. 2. read formeth , createth . l. 39. for here to read hereto . pag 33. l. 2. read not with respect to any . l 4. dele the whole line . l. 9. for of read to . l. 37. for heart he read hear the. p. 39. l 2. for bold read ●…eld . p 40. l 20. read or be void . p. 43. Margent l. 19. for tell read tells . p. 44. l. 37. read bits ) pag. 45 l. 7. Marg. read Civ . Dei. 8. p. 47. Marg. read Id. p. 711. for Id. 4. read Id. mem . 4 p 48. line 2. dele in line 22. read on that line 32. read of him . page 50. line 32. read Idolatrous . That line 33. Thought it , let . Margen : dele Aru●…t . de Xen. Ma●…gent for Laert. de read Lactant. de . pag. 51. line . 12. for Accute read Acute . Marg. Plat. Phaed dele . p 53. l. 25. read of the. p. 54. l. 12. for Pireen read Prienc ●…in . 14. and He de●…e . l. 15. dele He at the end of the line . pag 55. l. 13. for Good re●…d Go●…d . p. 56. Marg. for Enca●… . read Aenead . p. 59. l. 6 & 7. dele p. 61. Marg. l 3. for 1543. 123. read 123. 1543. p. 62 l. 24. for accutely read acutely . p. 65. l. 13 for no read no●… p. 66. read CHAP XIII . l. 12. dele not . [ 70. Marg. l. 3. dele o. l. 12. dele ibid. p. 71. Marg. l. 2. for 48. read 84. p. 73. l. 5. read and giveth . p 78. l. 30. read of Men. p. 79. l. 24. dele Prophecy and. l. 35. for then read them p 80. l. 12. for End 〈◊〉 hand . p. 81. l. 29 , 30. for what Virgil will add to read what Eusebius will have Virgli t●… have added in . p. 82. l. 35. read Occidet serpens . p 83. l. 22. for Iandix read ●…anilix . page 84. 〈◊〉 32. read enough to . p. 87. l. 4 read Hicks , then he hath dealt . l. 5. read Dialogue ) pag. 91. l. 11. add after ( him ) so as to be no where else . l. 20. read the Manifestation of Light. p. 92. l 34. for dar●…st read durst . page 94. l. 15. for Light read ●…llumination . p. 79. l. 6 read not only . p 98. l. 8. read And that . pag. 101. l. 35. read 〈◊〉 willingly . p. 103. l. 26. for when read whom . p. 106. l. 33. for endanger'd read accessible . l. 4●… . for guarnison'd read garrison'd , p. 107. l. 2. for inbondag'd read ●…nbondag'd . l 5. read clear and broken forth . l. 15. read We say , l. 17. for not instrumentally read instrumentally not . p. 110. l. 30. read Jews , viz. p. 112. l. 23. for suffer'd read suffer . p 115. l. 17 for In●…ner read Jenner . page 116. l. 11. for Saving , One read saving one . line 16. for Product read produc'd . p. 1●…7 . l. 11. for better , as read better at . line 25. read true Light. p 119. l 27. dele Omnious . p. 122. l. 37. r. Aggravation . 〈◊〉 . 126. l. 1 for Si●… read Sigh . p. 28. read CHAP XXVI . p. 131. l. 4. for Inability , to see the read 〈◊〉 to see , the. p. 136. l. 26. r. Scriptures . p. 136. l. 34. for were 〈◊〉 . wa●… . p. 137. l. 6. for Good read Goad . l. 29 read such a thing . p. 138. l. 27. for more read m●…er . l. 39. Marge●…t for on read one . p●…ge 140 l. 29. for He that flyes read They ●…at flye . p. 148. l 〈◊〉 . for 〈◊〉 read per●…eived . p. 149. l. 24. read in his Works . p. 54. l 34 af●…er M●…unt de●… ( , ) and put a ( , ) before was . p. 156. l. 30. r. but as the THE CHRISTIAN QUAKER AND HIS Divine Testimony VINDICATED , Against the Adversaries of the True LIGHT ; BEING THE Second Part , Containing A more particular Answer to the Baptists ( and others ) Arguments , Exceptions , Errors and Falasies herein specified . By a Servant and Follower of Jesus Christ through Persecutions and Reproaches , G. Whitehead . The vile Person will speak Villany , and his Heart will work Iniquity , to practice Hypocrisie , and to utter Error against the Lord , Isa. 32. 6. Printed in the Year 1673. To the Unprejudiced READER . IF it had not been the Lord who was on our side when Men rose up against us ; Now may we ( with Israel ) say , then they had swallowed us up quick , when their Wrath was kindled against us . Had our Separation and Testimony been of Men , or by Man's Will , we ha●… fallen long since ( as many of our Adversaries have falsly prophesied ) we had not been sustained through our many Tryals , nor born up above the Floods of Enmity , if the Lord h●…d not been with us ; but he who hath gathered and chosen us to witnes●… forth his Name and Truth in the Power and Spirit of it , h●…th preserved and given us Strength to persevere therein , blessed be his Name for ever . And this I ( with my Brethren ) must give Testimony of , that as God hath in these last Dayes been pleased to visit us by his Eternal Power , and in his Love and Kindness to open the Eyes of our Understanding , to see his Goodness both to our own particulars , and to Man-kind in General , in extending Saving Grace or Light to all . So it is by his Power that he hath raised up , and set forth Witnesses of the same ; the Sence we have of the Love of God , and his Glorious Light revealed , induceth and moveth us , even in the Spirit of the Gospel , to call others out of Darkness , and to direct their Minds to the Appearance of the true Light in their Hearts and Consciences ( in what degree soever it sheweth it self ) which God in his Goodness hath universally afforded for Good to Mankind , that they might both know him , and their Duty to him : God did stretch forth his Hand , and reach unto us by his Power , for this very end , to gather us unto his divine Light or Shining in our Hearts , that thereby we might receive the Knowledge of his Glory in the Face of Christ Jesus , as his former Witnesses did . And although we must still confess to the Love and Good-Will of God to Man , in affording Divine Light universally , throughout all Ages ; yet Transgression and Darkness hath been such in the Earth , that hath in many Ages much vailed and obscured the Light , that the Knowledge and Manifestation thereof hath be●… much wanting , even because of Man's Transgr●…ssion and I 〈◊〉 . Wherefore Light being now sprung up , an●… Truth arisen out of Darkness and Obscurity ; we must faithfully testifie thereof , a●…d own the least degrees and lowest Dispensations of divine Light 〈◊〉 Man , as his Duty to observe , and not to slight , nor despise●… 〈◊〉 any ; for we know , that as Light hath risen , and shined out of Obscurity , and Truth hath risen up out of the Earth , it hath been from a less Appearance and Degree to a greater , 〈◊〉 ●…rom that Degree of shining in a dark Place , unto the perfect Day : And as all the Promises of God are yea and Amen in Christ ; so all his Glorious Dispensations and Promises do center in a Divine and Unchangeable Principle of Life and Light , 〈◊〉 gradually discovered to and in Man : Therefore the 〈◊〉 Appearance or Manifestation in any ( while 't is of the same Principle ) cannot be extinguished nor lessened by the greater in others , in that the highest Attainments of Divine Knowledge were alwayes gradually obtained by the Holy Men of God. Moreover , This we assert , that God that made Man for his own Glory ( whose Mcrcies are over all his Works , and who willeth not the Death of Sinners , but rather that they should return and live ) He hath not only throughout all Ages universally afforded an Unchangeable Principle of Divine Light , which he hath placed in man , to direct him his Way out of Darkness and Sin ; but also he signally visits him at times with Living Appearances , Motions and Opperations of his Light and Spirit , to his Reproof and Conviction , thereby often warning and calling Man out of Iniquity ; as the Spirit of God did strive with the old World that had corrupted us Way before him , and was destroyed by the Flood , for its Flood of Iniquity ; and he gave his good Spirit unto the Rebellious Jews , which they grieved and vexed , until he became their Enemy , and fought against them : He by his Lightnings enlightened the World , and the Earth trembled and s●…ke , and upon whom doth not his Light arise ? although they that rebel against the Light know not the Wayes of it , because they abide not in the Pathes thereof : yea , he that causeth his Sun to arise ●…n the Evil and on the Good , and sendeth his Rain on the Just and the Unjust ; he hath not left himself without sufficient Witness in the Earth , both inward & outward , as namely , his Divine Immediate Light in man appearing to the Soul , & his Works of Creation which are obvious to the Light , and Universally declaring his Wisdom , Power and Greatness to be inwardly 〈◊〉 , and ●…nderstood , as his Inward Light opens Man's Understanding and the Eyes thereof . Howbeit Man having transgressed this Divine Principle , and his Mind being alienated from it , and blinded by the God of this World : God having Bowels of Pitty still remaining , he hath been pleased so far to commiserate poor lost Man , as to afford and extend those pretious Promises , as the more eminently to declare , shew forth and renew his Love Light and Power , for man's Recovery out of his Lost and Dark Estate : As that the Seed of the Woman should bruise the Serpents Head ; and this did Christ in general ( and doth in particular ) by the Power of the Father , which can no wayes lessen nor detract from his Light within , nor be any Inconsistency with its directing Men to the same Power of God , for the subduing and bruising Satan under their Feet , which in their own particulars they must experience , whoever attain to Deliverance or Salvation from the Power of Sin and Satan . As also God hath promised to make a New-Covenant with his People ; It s new , not as opposed to the Light within , as implying its waxing old ( but new ) as that the old Covenant without , ( which the Jews broke ) was to decay and vanish , this New-Covenant being a Covenant of Light , Life and Peace , a Covenant whereby he takes away and forgives Sin ; This they only have a Part in , who obey the Universal Light of the Son of God within , which no Way differs in Nature from the Covenant it self , nor can it oppose the Ends of it ; but is a Light of the same Life and Fulness that is enjoyed in the Covenant or Agreement with God , moving and conducing to the very same End and Agreement as ob●…ed and waited in ; and as the Jews outward had a Rule directory , and Law in the Letter without ( though that alone could not give Life ) so the Jew inward hath his Rule directory , and Law inward in Spirit which can give Life . And this New-Covenant is the last Dispensation of God in Christ to Man , wherein his Highest , Spiritual and Saving Knowledge is to be received , by all that truely obey his Light ; and though this be new as to his renewed glorious Discovery herein ; yet he who is the Life of this Covenant , and given for a Covenant and Salvation , is the first and the last , the Rock of Ages , whom God hath decreed to anoint or set up upon the Hill of his Holiness , even the Holy Hill of Sion , that he may subdue and rule the Nations , and be the Salvation of God to the Ends of the Earth , more abundantly to be manifest in these last Ages , wherein his Church cometh out of the Wilderness , and the Holy City New Jerusalem is discovered from Heaven as a Bride prepared for the Bridegroom , and the Lord God and the Lamb ( as promised ) is the Light thereof , and the Nations of them that are saved shall walk in the Light of this City , and for this End is the Gospel made known and preached again , after a long Night and Reign of Anti-Christ , Beast , false Prophet , Dragon and Whore , whose Judgment is revealed , even against all the dark Whorish Spirits , and Hypocritical Envieus Agents of Anti-Christ and Satan , who do not only envy , oppose and gain-say the Truth , and undervalue the True Light , as its an Universal Principle in man , but also resist and strive against the Glorious Breaking forth and Discovery thereof in our Dayes ; for which the Lord will rebuke them , and he that sits in Heaven hath them in Derision . And all such Babylonish Builders , and Envious Agents ; as divers of these Men , called Anabaptists , or Dippers , now shew themselves to be , whose Malice , Madness and Folly shall be manifest to all Men ; why do they rage , and fret , and revile , but because the Light is sprung up , and the Over-spreading Day of God is broken forth , who hath said , as truely as I live , all the Earth shall be filled with the Glory of the Lord , Num. 14. 21. The Stone cut out without Hands , that s●…ites the Image shall become a great Mountain , and fill the Earth ; the God of Heaven is setting up his Kingdom which shall never be destroyed , as is prophesied in Daniel : Yea , Truth is sprung out of the Earth , which strikes at Satan's and Anti-christ's Kingdom , and again bruiseth the Serpent's Head , who hath lodged and covered himself under their empty Forms , Shaddows and Liveless Professions ( as he did among the persecuting Jews of old ) The Lord hath lifted up a Standard against their Hypocrisie and Deceit , who have been covering an Envious Spirit with a Pretence of Christianity ; And he is exalting his Gospel-Dispensation , in setting up his Light above their Darkness , his Power above their empty Forms , the Substance above the Shaddow , the Spirit above the Letter , and his Worship in Spirit and Truth above Will-Worship in Hypocrisie . At this Satan is offended , and his Agents are angry ; These our present Opposers vent forth their Confusion , Envy and Strife , though it be against the Stream ; they are wearying themselves for very Vanity ; the Fire ( which they have kindled in their Envy against the Lord's Heritage , wherein they are labouring ) shall devour them . 1. These Anabaptists Babylonish Confusion greatly appears about the Light , which is in every Man , as Men whom Enmity hath blinded , and whose Minds are alienated from it into gross Darkness ; Though the Controversie between us is not upon the Question , Whether there be a Light , or any Light in every man ( for thus far we both agree in the Affirmative ) but whether God hath given a Divine or Sufficient Light to every Man , to shew and direct him out of Sin and Evil , to God who is Light , and the Giver of Light for Life and Salvation ? which we affirm , but these Dippers deny , especially such of them who are particular Electioners or Predestinarians , whose partial Doctrine doth not really place the Cause of Men's Condemnation upon their Neglect ( or Disobedience ) of the Light given them ; but originally upon God's secret Decree against them , and his with-holding saving Light or Grace from them ( as they both falsly and partially imagine ) however it s confest to be tendered to all , in preaching the Gospel without Exception or Respect of Persons . But under what Terms or Names do these our Opposers represent this Light , which they confess is in every Man to prove it Insufficient , either for a Rule or Guide to Salvation . Sometime they call it a Creature , sometime a Natural Light , sometime the Substance of the Law , or first Covenant , which they grant ought to be improved . Sometimes , after a more gross manner , they blasphemously represent it as a Mis-guiding Light , directly opposing the Covenant of Grace , and to be rejected ; but how well this agrees with its being a Light given of God to be improved ( surely sor a good End ) I leave to the Serious Impartial Reader to judge , of which he may see further about in the following Answer to Thomas Hicks . And as touching these Men's Envy against us called Quakers , as being offended at our present Liberty and Prosperity , H. Grigg endeavours to clear them , in his Epistle ( to the Baptists , not Babylonish ) by this Passage , viz. I have not the least Enmity nor Hatred in my Heart against the Persons of any of these People called Quakers , nor are we offended or troubled at their present Liberty , ( as he seems to charge us ) though we cannot deny but their Principles and unsound Doctrines tend to the wounding and grieving of our Souls , because we see daily more and more the dangerous and damnable Nature thereof . Mark , that while hypocritically they pretend to clear and quit themselves from having the least Enmity against our Persons , or Offence at our present Liberty ; It appears they would be gratified or pleased , if the Powers would do them that Favour , as suppress us , and restrain our Liberty for them , as their bitter Invectives and invet crate Clamours plainly import and intimate their persecuting Spirit and Implac●…ble Ma●…ice , as while they are complaining against our Principles & Doctri●…es as ●…amnable , & 〈◊〉 us Cheats , Impostors , Romish 〈◊〉 , &c. Th●…ugh their Charge herein they have never proved against us , nor can they ; this doth not only bespeak a Willingness or ●…esire to have our Principles suppresse●… , but our Persons likewise : As also T. Hick's proclaiming to the World , p. 62 ; that the Quaker's Religion is a meer Cheat calculated to the Service of the Devil ; and wickedly infianating against our Sufferings , that the Satisfaction of our Wills and Lusts , the promoting our Carnal Interest , Respect only to something to be enjoyed here , Carnal Advantage , Outward Gains , &c. may be our chief Motive , Inducement and Encouragement to do and suffer as we do , Dialogue p. 75. And he questions , whether we are not really acted by some Romish Emissaries , to insinuate covertly many of their own Heresies , to distract , deform and declaim the Protestant Profession , &c. p. 76. Judge , Candid Reader , whether these malitious and false Insinuations do not savour of a persecu●…ing Spirit , though they would not be seen to envy our Liberty ; yet how do these Invectives tend to stir up Persecution , and to incense the World , and instigate the Rulers against us sor our Suppression ? ( Their pretended Alegations sor them are hereafter answered and refuted ) and how absurd they are in these Accusations . 1st , To insinuate that our Sufferings have been either for Carnal Advantage , Temporal Gains , or to satisfie Lusts ; whilst in our resigning up our selves to these many and deep Sufferings , we have often offered up our Lives , and consequently ( with them ) all our Temporal Enjoyments and Advantages , us many this Day can testifie , together with those many Innocent Person 's Lives that have been laid down among us in and by Imprisonments , Exilements and other Sufferings . 2ly , How ill it doth become these Anabaptists to endeavour to make the World believe , that we are either influenced or acted by Romish Emissaries , either to distract , deform or defame the Protestant Profession , which is not only a Popular and deceitful Insinuation against us ( as if the Dippers had the chief Care of Protestant Religion , or were the most Catholick therein ) but most notoriously false and wicked ; and I challenge Thomas Hicks , and all therest of his Fratcrnity to prove it , or else forever to be ashamed thereof . Have they not more cause to look back at home , and reflect upon themselves , since that divers of their Brethren ( even some of their Preachers ) have turned Papists of late Years , whose Names being so well known , I need not now mention them ; but when or where did any Preachers owned among us turn Papists , or were any such Emissaries ? Oh the great Enmity that 's in these our Opposers , and their great Disingenuity and Immoderation that appears among them ( as will further be manifest to their Shame , and the Lord will certainly rebuke them , and all their feigned Coverings will be too narrow for them , and they shall see and be ashamed of their Envy at his People . But I must proceed to give the Reader a short view of some of Thomas Hicks Doctrines that past at a Dispute , and in a Paper of his , before his Fictitious and Unchristian Dialogue came forth as some Introduction to my following Answer , which was writ quickly after the said Dialogue came forth . London the 4th . 1st . Month 1673. I am a Well-Wisher to all Men , even desiring my Enemies Repentance , G. W. Some of the Doctrines and Contradictions of Thomas Hicks declared at a Discourse between him and some of the Quakers ( so called ) in Alderman-Berrey London , the twentieth of the third Month 1672. FIrst , He owned the Baptists above other People . That is no Honour to them . 2ly , That he did not own Water Baptism to be necessary ( or of Necessity ) to Salvation . True , but contrary to many of his Brethren . 3ly , That the Quakers err in Fundamentals , denying the Person of Christ , denying the true Christ and Resurrection . These are Impudent Slanders . 4. That the Life or Light spoken of , John 1. 4 , 9. is not supernatural , because it is the Light of the Word as Creator . A Blasphemous Inconsistency . [ This was noted down at the Interim of the Discourse before him , but snacht away by one of his Companions ] So that h●… concluded , the ●…ight in every Man is but Natural , and not sufficient to guide to Salvation . False Doctrine , the Light of the Eternal Word is supernatural and sufficient 5ly , That the Life which is in God , which is the Light of Men , John 1. 4. is divine as it is in God , but natural as it is in Man. Blasphemy , that Life is Immutable because Divine . 6ly , That the Light that is given in common to Men is not able to apprehend things supernatural . A false and inconsistent Doctrine . And yet able to apprehend ( and bring Men clearly to see ) the Invisible things of God , even the Eternal Power and Godhead , Rom. 1. 19 , 20. A true Concession , but a Contradiction to the former . 7ly , [ Evasion ] That it is able to discern the Eternal Power and God head , but not the things that are supernatural that are in God. A gross Contradiction , the Eternal Power and GodHead are supernatural . 8ly , That it was a Natural Light , a Light of Conscience , and a depraved renewed Nature , by which the Gentiles did those things contained in the Law , Rom. 2. 14. Absurd Inconsistencies and Falshoods . 9ly , That the Light in the Heathen , in Philosophers and others was able to apprehend God and his Divine Power , but not those things that are in God. A gross Inference ; are those things higher then God ? 10ly , That it cannot discover the human Nature of Christ , or the Body that he took upon him , nor his Suffering nor Death ; And yet it can discover the divine Attributes of God , his Wisdom Power , Goodness , Love , and direct Men to love him . A manifest Contradiction ; can it discover the greater , and not the lesser ? 11ly , But the Light in the Quakers cannot discover the Person of Christ , nor his human Nature , Sufferings , Death , &c. Yet it is the Life and Light of Christ. 12ly , That the Quakers deny the Person of Christ , his Offices , Satisfaction , and the Resurrection of the Body , &c. Lyes and Slanders forged and brought forth in Envy and Darkness . 13ly , That it s their Principle that whosoever believes in that Christ that suffered at Jerusalem , and expects Salvation by him , they are deceived in their Faith , and shall be damned , &c. This he spake of James Nayl●…r's Love to the Lost , near the Beginning of the Discourse . This is an Abuse , the true Christ is but one , and the same yesterday to day and forever . 14ly , Also at the Beginning he said , that the Baptists and Presbyterians agree in Fundamentals , and there are good People among Presbyterians ; therefore they might joyn against the Quakers , for they err in Fundamentals . Answ. First we thought that Water-Baptism had been a fundamental Point with the Baptists ; and do they and Presbyterians agree therein ? 2. Have not the Baptists , whom Presbyterians call Anabaptists , been accounted Hereticks by the Presbyterians ? Why do they now joyn against the Quakers ( so called ) ? 3. Dare he say there are no good People among the Quakers , that he makes good People's being among Presbyterians a Reason of his joyning with them against us ? Is it not easy to see a manifest Dissimulation and feigned Confederacy therein among these our Opposers ? If our Opposer saith , we have not inserted his Explications upon his Assertions . Answ. That 's his Work , he hath Liberty to do it himself . [ But he hath not done it , nor vindicated these his Assertions in his Pamphlet . ] Christ's Light within asserted , as it is Divine ( and therefore a sufficient Rule of Life unto Salvation to all that truely obey it ) and vindicated from Tho. Hicks his dark Exceptions ; fallasious and impious Arguments ( consisting of manifest Ignorance , Confusion and Ranterism ) which are here inserted as they were exhibited in a Paper , afterwards owned and signed by him . HIs harge against G.W. That George Whitehead affirmed , that there was that Light in every Man , if followed , that was sufficient to Salvation . T. Hick's Assertions against this . 1. In Answer to which it is asserted , that the Light in every Man could not understand the Doctrine of Instituted Worship . 2. That the Light in every Man could not understand the Doctrine of Jesus Christ , concerning his coming to save Sinners . 3. The Light in every Man could not bring him to the Understanding how Sin came into the World. 4. The Light in every Man cannot acquaint him with the Knowledge of the Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead . Reply , G. Whitehead still affirms , that God hath gratiously afforded that Light to every Man , which he ought to follow , and is sufficient to guide him to Salvation . To his four first Assertions , I query , Is that Life which is the Light of Men , John 1. 4. divine in it self ? the Light of Jesus Christ as the Eternal Word ? able to apprehend and bring Man clearly to see the Invisible things of God , even his Eternal Power and Godhead ? ( as confessed from Rom , 1. 19 , 20. ) And yet is this Light neither able to understand the Worship that 's due to him , the Doctrine of Christ Jesus concerning his coming to save Sinners , how Sin came into the World , nor yet to acquaint Man with the Knowledge of the Resurrection ? can the Light apprehend or bring men to see God's Eternal Power , and yet neither bring them to understand the Cause of Man's Separation and Death from God , nor his Duty or Restoration to God again ? How manifestly in consistent and contradictory are these ? and how plainly doth he charge men's Ignorance ( and Defects for want of Obedience ) upon the Light within ? And then , what is it given for , and what can it do ? But these Assertions are grounded upon his taking it for granted , that it is not a Light of Grace , but of Nature , when that Life which is the Light of Men is granted to be divine in its own being , able to discover the Eternal Power and Godhead , then which there is not a higher Power ; but how this divine Light should become Natural as a Creature , we are still to enquire , as that which neither T. H. ●…or his Brethren have ever yet proved . That the Light within every Man could not be a Rule , for it must be a Light of Nature or of Grace ; This Light cannot be understood the Light of Grace , because the Scripture doth suppose a time when Men are without it : It is said , after those Dayes I will put my Laws in their Hearts , and they shall know me ; that must be the Light of Grace . Answ. Where doth the Scripture say , that the Life of Christ , which was with and in the Father , which is the Light of men , is the Light of Nature , and not a Light of Grace ? The man in taking this for granted most filthily begs the Question , and that contrary to his own Concession before ; neither doth the Scripture suppose a time wherein Men have no Light of Grace in them , as he insinuates ; but a time when they are out of the New-Covenant , and Strangers in their Minds to it , as not being come into that Agreement with God or Union with his Light , which this Covenant doth import . And because the State and Tenour of it is both the having God's Laws written in his People's Hearts and Minds , their knowing him to be their God , and they to be his People ; and it s a Covenant of Mercy and Forgiveness of Sins past ; It doth not therefore follow , that none of his Law is in them before they come to this Holy Attainment and Blessed Agreement ; though his Laws are not so universally written or deeply engraven in their Hearts before , for it s now granted by divers of our Opposers , who are of the more moderate . 1. That the pure or holy Law which God placed in man's Hearts before Transgression , was never wholy abliterated , though much clouded by man's Disobedience . 2. Some of these Anabaptists do confess to a Light in man which reproves for Evil and excites to good , which they say is the Substance of the morral ●…aw , or first Covenant , which enjoyns Man truely to love and worship God , and to love our Neighbours equally with our selves , to do justly , &c. That this the very Heathens or Gentiles have in them . And then I ask , if this Law doth not appertain to the New-Covenant as one principle Law thereof also ? and never intended to be destroyed by Christ , but fulfilled and renewed in his Followers , who have Union with it , as having a more deep impression , and being more fully discovered in the Hearts of Men , when become Children of this Covenant then before : Was not Love the fulfilling of the Law ? and was not this preached by Christ's Ministers ? and was not love one to another both the Old and New Commandment ; yea , the Old Commandment renewed and established ? If not a Light of Grace in every Man , then it must be the Light of Nature ; but the Light in every Man cannot be sufficient to Salvation , Acts 11. 18. When they heard these things they held their Peace and glorifyed God , saying , then hath God also to the Gentiles granted Repentance to Life ; then they had it not before . Answ. His Argument still depends upon his former Fallacy , that 't is not a Light of Grace , but a Light of Nature that is in every Man , as also in putting Repentance for the Light of Grace , he puts the Effect for the Cause , as if no man had saving Grace or a Light thereof before Repentance or Conversion ; whereas his Argument doth not at all prove that those Gentiles who received the Word of God , had not a Light of Grace , but only of Nature in them , before Peter preached Jesus Christ to them ; but rather the contrary , that it was a Light of Grace , a Light of Jesus Christ and secret Power of God that moved in them , and opened their Hearts , and seriously inclined them to hear the Gospel preached , and which Light in them closed with the lively Testimony thereof , which did concur with the Light to the opening their Understandings , and turning their Minds from Darkness and Sin to the Light shining in their Hearts , and when those of the Circumcision heard how well the Gentiles were prepared to receive the Gospel , and the Effect of it , Act. 10. and 11. Chap. They were then convinced of God's Graciousness to those of the Uncircumcision , as well as to themselves , their contending with Peter for going unto , and eating with men uncircumcised was then stopped ; when they heard these things they held their Peace , and glorified God , saying ; then hath God also to the Gentiles granted Repentance unto Life . And its evident , that Cornelius and the rest that received the Word as preached , had a Work of saving Grace in their Hearts before , which prepared them , and begot true desires in them after Life and Salvation . Also when Barnabas come to Antioch , and had seen the Grace of God , he was glad , and exhorted them all , that with Purpose of Heart they would cleave unto the Lord , Act. 11. 23. So this Light of the Grace of God both to and in them was great Encouragement to him so to exhort them ; but if there had been no Saving Grace in their Hearts , what Effect could such Exhortation or Preaching have been of unto them ? If the Light within be sufficient to save Men , then it renders Christs Coming and Suffering needless . This is a blind Inference , still opposing the Light of Christ within ( yea , and all that is of God in Man ) as Insufficient , and so as neither discovering Christ's Coming , nor the Effect of his Suffering ; or as i●… Men might be saved by his Coming and Suffering , without Respect to his Light within , which shews gross Darkness ; as if there were not a Concurrence between the Light within , and the End of Christ's Coming and Suffering ; and he might as well say , that if the Ingrafted Word which is within be able to save the Soul , then Christ's Coming and Suffering was needless ; he should rather have sai●… , that Christ's Coming and Suffering without , was because men were turned from his Light within ; for if all had walked in his Light within , he had not been persecuted and murthered ; but this man's Argument supposeth Christ's Coming and Suffering to be for the Supply of some great Defect or Insufficiency of his Light within ; * as if man had so well improved it , and found it too scanty or Insufficient ; and therefore ( by this ) Christ must suffer and die for his own Light within to supply it ; whereas Christ dyed for the Ungodly , for all men that were dead in Sin , who had disobeyed and transgressed his Light within ; and though there be a Reconciliation by his Death , yet , the being saved is by his Life , whose Life is the Light of men , which for men to be turned to in themselves , and therein to live to God , varies not from the Blessed End of Christs coming and Suffering , while he works in man by his Light and Power within , both in shewing him Sin , & saving him from it , as he believes in the Light , becomes a Child of the Light thereof , as Christ exhorted , and if we walk in the Light ( of God ) the Blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all Sin. The Light within cannot be a sufficient Rule , because then there would be no certainty of Truth or Error , of Sin or Duty ; for that which one Man maketh Light to Day , the same Man will call Darkness to morrow ; one Man calleth one thing a Sin , another calleth it a Duty , by this there will be no such thing as Sin , but only in the Opinions of Men. Answ. 1. If there can be no Certainty of Truth or Error , Sin or Duty by the Light within ; how is he certain that there is any real Light at all in him . 2. His placing such uncertainties and those various and contrary Opinions of men upon the Light within , and rendring it an Insufficient Rule , either to distinguish between Truth and Error , Sin or Duty ; this is contrary to both Christ's and the Apostles Testimony ; as namely , that it is a manifesting Light both of good and Evil , both of those deeds wrought in God , and those that are reproved , Joh. 3. 20 , 21. Ephes. 5. 13. wherefore the Light of Christ within is a sufficient Rule . 3. And what Proof is it against the Light , if one man calls it Light to day , and the same call it Darkness to morrow ? or that one man calleth one thing a Sin , another calleth it a Duty ? doth this therefore prove the Light not a Sufficient Rule ? Or doth it prove any more then that there are those that put Darkness for Light and Light for Darkness , and that call Evil good , and good Evil , Isa. 5. 20. or those that call that a Sin which others call a Duty ; If it must ●…om hence be argued , therefore that there is no such certain Discovering Light or Rule in man to distinguish these ; may it not aswell be argued , that therefore there is no such thing as Truth or Duty to be distinguished from Error and Sin ? And doth not this directly lead into Ranterism , and finally into Atheism ? let the Serious Reader judge . If the Light within be a sufficient Rule , then I have a sufficient Rule within me , because you say every Man hath it , and I am bound to obey it : In Obedience to this Rule , I oppose your Errors , and in opposing your Errors one of our Lights cannot be a sufficient Rule , because such a vast difference between us ; then one of us hath not a sufficient Rule . Answ. However he hereby grants the Light in one of us to be a sufficient Rule , pretending that he obeys this Rule , and here he hath found another Rule for a Christian besides the Scriptures , and then they are not the only or sole Rule of Faith and Practice ; though its evident he doth not obey the Light within , while he represents it so variable and uncertain , and the Opposition and difference between us to arise from Light in both , whereas the Light is but one , and changeth not ; that divine Principle of Life which is the Light of men is immutably pure , and cannot err , however the Creature doth ; therefore it follows that both of us cannot be led by the Light in such direct Opposition ; for its Darkness that opposeth the Light. After his so grosly and impiously slighting and invalidating the Light within , he does not at all tell us what good it can do or understand , nor what good End or Use God hath given it for to Man-kind , nor what shall be the End of them ( of what Nation soever ) that walk up to the Light within them , nor what Condition or End do the Dictates and Leadings of it tend to ; this he has not at all resolved ; but ( in his Darkness ) dealt most corruptly and disingenuously against the Light within ; but I ask T. H. if the Light within him doth not at some times reprove him for his Passion , Envy and Railing , which ill becomes a Man professing the Patience and Sufferings of Christ ? No Man can have a sufficient Light to guide him to Salvation , that hath not the Spirit of God , because no man can understand the things of God , but he that hath the Spirit of God ; but all men have not the Spirit of God ; therefore all men have not a sufficient Rule to Salvation , because all Men have not the Spirit . Answ. By this he hath granted the Spirit of God and Light of it to be a sufficient Guide and Rule to Salvation , and to bring man to understand the things of God ; but how well this agrees with their Doctrine [ That the Scriptures are the only Rule of Faith and Practic●… , and not the Spirit nor Light in man , and that the Bible is the means of knowing God ] I refer to the understanding Reader to judge of : And what though all men have not the Spirit , either in the Union or Possession of it as their Rule , can no man have it that thus hath it not already ? Seeing he concludes , that no man can have a sufficient Light to guide him to Salvation that hath not the Spirit ; what , can no man have it ? Is it not then to be had ? and yet 't is granted to be the Saint's Rule ; whenas that which is the Saint's Rule ought to be every man's Rule , because every man ought to be a Saint ; wherefore God hath afforded some divine Light to every man , whereby he may be led out of Darkness , call upon God , obtain Life , receive the Spirit ( which he giveth to them that ask ) and become Saint ; for God is ready to give the Spirit to them that truely ask it , which only man can do by a Light of it . His Argument , that all men have not the Spirit , is no Proof that every man is not enlightened by Christ ; for those are said not to have the Spirit , who live not to God in it , but in Sensuality , Jude 19. and yet such were said to be twice dead , ver . 12. which they could not have been , if they had never been quickened , yet being twice dead , pluckt up by the Roots , they are become sensual having not the Spirit , i. e. in the Knowledge , Rule , Exercise and Union of it ; But whether shall I go from thy Spirit ? or whether shall I flee from thy Presence , Psa. 139. 7. and upon whom doth not his Light arise , when every man that cometh into the World is enlightened by Christ. The Light within cannot be ae sufficient Rule , because it is made the Character of a wicked Man , to do what is right in his own Eyes , and to walk after his own Imaginations ; then that which they do account their Duty , may be their Wickedness , & highest Wickedness , and an Argument of God's severe Curse upon them ; it s said , he gave them up to strong Delusions to believe a Lye. Answ. Doth then the wicked man follow the Light within him , as his Rule in doing , what 's right in his own Evil Eyes , and in walking in his own Imaginations ? Or doth God bring such a severe Curse ●…pon any ( as the giving up to strong Delusions ) for walking after or following the Light within ? How horribly blasph●…mous is it either to suppose or imply these things against the Light within , to prove it an Insufficient Rule , as this man argues ; placing not only Uncertainties , the various Opinions , Thoughts and Imaginations of wicked men upon the Light within , but their Wickedness , and highest Wickedness ( if they own it their Duty ) his Argument blasphemously places it upon the Light within , most blindly confounding wicked men's Imaginations & Wickedness which the Devil is the Author of ) with the Light in every man , without distinction , wherein Ranter like , he puts Darkness for Light , and Light for Darkness , which wo is to them that doth , Isa. 5. 20. Whereas they that follow their own vain Imaginations , and are given up to strong delusions to believe a Lye ( as T. H. doth ) are such as have rebelled against the Light rejected the Truth , have not glorified God as God , nor liked to retain him in their Knowledge , see Job 24. 13. Rom. 1. 21. 28. because they obeyed not the Gospel , no●… received the Love of the Truth , that they might be saved , God gave them over to strong Delusions , and took Vengeance on them , 2 Thes. 1. 8. and Chap. 2. 10 , 11. Therefore God did afford both a sufficient Light , Rule , and tendred the Love of the Truth to them , as he doth to all , else how should they be left without Excuse ; seeing it is a Righteous thing with God to recompence and render Vengeanc●… on them that know him not , for their disobedience ? It cannot be consistent with his Righteousness in Judgment , to bring Tribulation and Anguish upon every Soul that doth Evil , or to judge the Secrets of Men by Christ , according to the Gospel , without ever affording them a Lght of the Gospel , or Gospel Nature sufficient to discover Evil , and direct to Good ; and how can Indignation and Wrath come upon them that are Contentious , and obey not the Truth , but obey Unrighteousness , if the Truth did never reach to , or enlighten them ? or how should their not obeying the Truth , but Unrighteousness , be charged upon them , if the Truth were never afforded them ? Therefore by the same Reason that its confest that God wil render to every man according to his Deeds , & that there is no Respect of Persons with God ; it ought to be also confessed or owned , that he doth afford to every man a Light of Truth & Righteousness sufficient for a Rule to escape Sin and Evil , and the Wrath that 's due for it , and to direct man unto patient continuance in Well doing , to seek for Glory and Immortality , that he might obtain eternal Life & Glory ; see & consider , Rom. 2. throughout , which sufficiently signifies ; 1. The Goodness of God to Man ; 2. His dispencing of his Grace and Truth to all ; 3. How Impartial he is & Righteous in his Judgment against the disobedient and rebellious , who despise his Goodness , and thereby bring Wrath upon themselves ; 4. The acceptance of the Gentiles , who obeyed that Law or Light given them , though they had not the Law in the Letter of it . Wherefore now , moderate Reader , take notice that the very Ground of our asserting the universal Extent of Saving Grace & sufficient Light to Man-kind , is ; 1. The unspeakable Love and Goodness of God , as in himself , he being Love in the highest . 2. His unwillingness that Man should either live or die in Sin , he having no Pleasure in the Death of Sinners , but rather that they should return and live . 3. That he so loved the World , that he sent his Son into the World , that whosoever believes in him might not perish , but have Everlasting Life ; & in that he sent not his Son into the World to condemn the World , but that the World through him might be saved . These weighty Considerations we have all along respect to in our asserting sufficient Grace or Light to be afforded of God to Mankind . If the Light within be a sufficient Rule , then no Man ought to repent of his Ignorant worshiping of the true God , or of his worshiping a false God ; Nor ought men to repent of their Acts of Cruelty against the Saints , wherin they think they do wel , & act according to their Light ; Nor ought the Quakers to repent of their Inhuman Actions of walking naked ; for they think in so doing they do well , and act according to their Light ; therefore the Light within is not a sufficient Rule . Answ. Still the man goes on in an absolute Strain of apparent Ranterism , gross Inconsistencies and Blasphemous Inferences against the Light within , while he renders it neither a sufficient Rule to discover Truth or Error in matter of Worship , nor to lead men to repent of Idolatry , Wickedness or Acts of Cruelty against the Saints ; but their thinking they do well therein , this he deems according to their Light ; and all this to shew that the Light within which the Quakers preach , is an insufficient Rule ; But it s then Non-sense in him to account it any Real Light at all by those his Discriptions of it before , which one while renders the Light within so defective , so mutable , and so insignificant , as a meer Nullity , another while no better then Darkness it self , another while , the Author of Sin and Wickedness , as being according to their Light. What horrible Madness and gross Darkness hath the Devil led these Opposers into ? His accusing the Quakers with Inhuman Actions of walking naked . 1st , As it s in general its fals , ●…or its neither a general Practice among us , nor the constant Practice of any ; It was only some few particulars that have had a peculiar Burthen laid upon them to go naked for a Sign to such Hypocritical Professors ( as oppose and rebell against the Light within , and are covered , but not with the Spirit of the Lord ) that God would rent their false Coverings , and discover their Shame and Nakedness , as it is manifest at this Day : So that its evident , that some who have been made such Signs , as before , were therein true Prophers against a Generation of Envious Hyppocrites and Persecutors . 2. His asserting that walking naked is an Inhuman Action ; as his Charge is general , it s not true that all going naked is Inhuman ( but where corruptly intended for some Evil or Inhuman Act or End ) for , 1st . Were Adam and Eve Inhuman in their being naked , when they were not ashamed , being Innocent ? Gen. 2. 25. for the Shame came after Transgression , from which came the Inhumanity . 2ly . When the Spirit of God was upon Saul , it s said , he stript of his Clothes also , and prophesied before Samuel , and lay down naked all that Day , and all that Night ; wherefore they say , is Saul also amongst the Prophets , 1 Sam. 19. 23 , 24. It appears then that going naked was not counted such an Inhuman Action among the Prophets ; see also how Esaiah was made to be a Sign and a Wonder upon Aegypt and Aethiopiah , Esa. Chap. 20. and so what know you but that the Lord hath made some of his Servants Signs and Wonders against many in Spiritual Aegypt and Bondage ? however covered with a Profession and Pretence of being redeemed , as true Jews , Partakers of Gospel and Church Priviledges , of Spiritual Canaan , whilst yet in Spiritual Sodom , Aegypt and Babylon , where both our Lord hath been Spiritually crucified , and the Blood of his Prophets sound . Here follows T. H. his after-Charge . 1st . And that the whole Religion and Principles of that People , called Quakers , wherein they difference themselves from others , is of the Devil , witness my Hand , Thomas Hicks . This Charge is not only General but also very dark and most disingenuous : For if by [ OTHERS ] he means ALL OTHERS , he should have specified those Principles wherein we differ from all others , and produced his Proof . But if ( by others ) he mean only his own Sect , called Anabaptists , then he hath made a very rigid Conclusion against all others differing from them , that their whole Religion and Principles ( wherein they differ from Anabaptists ) are of the Devil . 2dly . They that deny the Resurrection of that Body that was committed unto Dust overthrows all Religion ( he saith ) To which I say , these Baptists that affirm it of the same Carnal Body , after turned to Dust , and yet that it cannot be a New-Created Body , and that the Body which God giveth to every Seed is the same Body ( as T. H. in his Dialogue doth , Pag. 58. 59. with others of his Brethren ) they affirm they know not what , and that which they can never give a reasonable or a convincing Demonstration of ( being also contrary to that Scripture , 1 Cor. 15. 37 , 38 , 40 , 50. ) and while they make this their Opinion the Ground of their Religion and future Happiness , their Religion is Carnal , and their Opinion Non-sensical , and their Foundation Sandy , being grounded upon Dust , and they themselves are very Ignorant of the Mystery of the Resurrection , as will further appear hereafter upon the full Disquission of this weighty matter . THE CHRISTIAN-QUAKER AND HIS Divine Testimony VIDICATED , In a more particular and direct Answer to the Baptist's Dialogue . Section I. The Light Within proved Divine and Saving , &c. FIrst , That there is a divine Light in every man , which is of a saving Property in its self ; and therefore sufficient to guide and direct man to God , and so to Salvation . And for its being a divine Light , I have urged Joh. 1. 4. In him was Life , and the Life was the Light of Men. Secondly , That this Light is the certain Guide and Rule to true Believers in matters of Faith , Spiritual Worship and Obedience to God [ and therefore that which can give a right Understanding of the Holy Scriptures . ] These our Assertions are chiefly quarelled at by T.H. and some of his Brethren , though he very smoothly pretends , not to cavil , but that he may understand the Truth , as desiring to know . First , What this Salvation is ? 2dly . What this Light is ? 3dly . Who they are that do obey this Light , and in obeying attain Salvation ? pag. 2. To which I answer , It both hath appeared , and will appear against thee T. H. that thy Envy and Cavilling hath kept thee from the right Understanding and Knowledge of the Light and Salvation , that thou art now to seek at this time of Day : And yet sayest , that all thou intendest is my Conviction and Recovery , as in thy 10th p. when as yet the Darkness covers thee , and keeps thee from the right understanding of Truth . But if thou hadst obeyed the Light of Christ within thee , thou wouldst have known both its Power and Sufficiency unto Salvation , and that this Salvation which it leads to is Christ , who is both Redemption and Salvation to them who follow him in his Light , from Darkness , Sin and Defilement of Conscience ( and so consequently from Wrath ) which thou art yet highly guilty of , and from which thy Water-Baptism has not washt thee . T. H. You express your selves with great Varity ; sometimes you say 't is Christ , * another time its only a Measure of Christ , anon its only of the Divine Essence ; this is a very uncertain Sound , p. 3. Answ. Thou shewest thy self a dull cavilling Baptist ; must we be tied up to one Word to express a Principle by , when the Scriptures allow of Varieties for Demonstration to divers Capacities , which doth not alter the Matter ? This divine Light in man is exprest in the Scripture with as much Variety of Words as we do . As it s called the Life , the Light , a Gift , Manifestation , Seed , Kingdom of Heaven within , a measure of the Gift of Christ , the Grace of God , &c. yet one and the same spiritual and divine Life or Light. T. H. Notwithstanding thy most diligent Attendance to the Light in thee , that which thou callst the Light in thee hath in many things mis-guided thee , p. 3. Answ. Now thou beginnest to be mad again the Light within ; that which I call the Light within , is the very same that Christ and his Witnesses did witness to ( to wit ) In him was Life , and the Life was the Light of men ; therefore thou hast blasphemously accounted this a misguiding Light. And in thy 7th . pag. hast plainly contradicted thy self herein , where thou appealest to the Light in me , and grantest it ought to be obeyed : See how thou hast broke the neck of thy corrupt cause ; if it were a mis-guiding Light , how dost thou for Proof appeal to it ( as Rule ) and grantest it ought to be obeyed ? ought that which is mis-guiding to be obeyed ? But the Light within ought , therefore it will not mis-guide . T. H. saith , G. W. in his Discourse upon it urged that text Joh. 1. 4. In him was Life and the Life was the Light of men . If the Life ( said he ) be the divine Essence ( my Words were , If that Life be of the divine Being ) the Light must be so also . Answ. This Argument thou didst never answer to purpose yet , but cavillest , and draws what Absurdities thou pleasest upon thy own Forgeries , as will further appear , only sillily thou argued against it thus , viz. T. H. That the Life or Light spoken of , Joh. 1. 4 , 9. is not supernatural , because it is the Light of the Word , as a Creator . Answ. To which was answered , that its false and inconsistent Doctrine ; For the Light of the Eternal Word is supernatural , because the Light of the Eternal Word the Creator . See here the Reason thou rendrest for its not being supernatural , proves it super-natural ; for because it s of this divine Relation it must be divine . And thou shifts but very sorrily to come off here , when thou tellest me , that the Life and Light commnuicated to every man from that Eternal Word , is not supernatural , Eternal and Divine . But for this , we have only thy Say-so , contrary to what thou hast granted before , to wit , as being the Light of the Eternal Word . Neither could thy other Shift serve thy turn , viz. T. H. That the Life which is in God , which is the Light of Men , Joh. 1. 4. is divine as it is in God , but natural as it is in man. Answ. The Conclusion of this is Blasphemy ; for that divine Life is Immutable because divine , it did not loose his Divinity by being given to man ; for being divine , 't is no more subject to mutation than God is . Remember here , how thou wast nonplust , and how thou art in a Laborinth ; and of this thou dost not clear thy self in all thy perverse cavilling against us . Sect. II. The Life which is the Light of Men , not a Creature , or meer Effect , &c. WHereas on the Behalf of God's immediate Illumination or Shining in man's Heart ; for the Divinity thereof , I alledged , that the Cause thereof being divine , this Effect thereof must needs be divine and supernatural , as in my Narrative . But instead of taking notice of the Words , his Immediate Illumination or Shining , thou art pleased to quarrel upon the Words , such as is the Cause , such the Effect must be ; and thus thou proceedest upon it , viz. T. H. From this kind of Reasoning we may conclude not only the Light within , but every Creature both Beasts and Trees are God , these being the Effects of Infinite Wisdom ; dost thou not tremble at this Consequence , p. 4. Answ. How causlesly dost thou quarrel ? Are both Beasts and Trees Immediate Effects of God's Power ? Did he not cause both Plants and Trees to grow out of the Earth ? 2ly . Were these Immediate ? To be sure I never affirmed so many Gods as there are Effects of Infinite Wisdom . But be it remembred , that I never called the divine Life , which is the Light of men , a meer Effect , but admitted of the Word Effect with reference to the Immediate Illumination or Shining of God in the Heart , as being of a divine Nature , because God is the Enlightener and Shiner : And thou denying the Light to be of the divine Essence , because communicated , I urged this Argument ; That if the Life be divine , or of the divine Being , then the Light in man must be divine , because the Life that was in God was that Light ; and such as is the Cause , such is the Effect , in some sence holds true , in all the Effects of Infinite Wisdom , true in all Creatures as they were made good ; God , the Cause being the chiefest Good , who beheld all that he had made , that it was very good , And God who is Light is the Fountain of Life and Light , whose divine Life or Light it self ( which is the Light of men ) I never intended to be a meer Effect , strictly taken as an Act of Power or thing made or created ; but as the Illumination or Immediate Shining in man , immediately and naturally flowing from God the Fountain of Light , ( its Envy makes thee carp and cavil ) and was not the Effect of the Law written in the Gentiles Hearts , of the Nature of the Law. Canst think thou art Ingenuous ? Dost think that I do not own Varieties of Effects from the Infinite Wisdom and Power of God , as not only supernatural but natural , both mediate , providential and immediate Effects , as well as Increated , Immediate Products of Life , Light and Vertue , flowing naturally from him ? Yet though divine Illumination as manifested in man , be an Immediate Act or Effect ; the Light or Life which doth illuminate is greater ; for it is the Cause which is more then the Effect , though this Illumination hath a Living Vertue and Resemblance of the Cause in it , and they are inseparable : So that the Life which is the Light of Men , Joh. 〈◊〉 . 4. being divine , and of the Being of God himself , who is Light , it is not proper to call it , a meer Effect , as a thing made , or a Creature as thou blindly calls it , and would have it ; wherein thou dost meerly beg the Question and builds a false Structure thereupon . Again thou leavest out part of the Controversy between us , whichw as thus . viz. T. H. The Light in every Man cannot be the divine Essence in God ; for God is in Heaven , and his Divine Essence is not communicable , &c. G. W. What is this but to deny the Omni-presence of God , and to endeavour to confine him 〈◊〉 is Infinite and not limitable . We ask if the Holy Ghost , or the Eternal Spirit be not God ? And if this Holy Spirit be not communicable ? This Question in the Narrative T. H. is willing to wave , as that which pinches him , and thus does he reply to the Words before , viz. T. H. Then it seems that the Lightwithin and the Omni presence of God is one and the same thing . Is this your Champion . a. 4. Answ. Thou scoffs , but durst not answer . God's Omnipresence divine Light and Spirit are inseparable ; God is Light , whose Presence fills Heaven and Earth , and upon whom doth not his Light arise ? And in what Country or People does not his Spirit come , if an Infinite Spirit ? Whether shall I go from thy Spirit ? Or whether shall I flee from thy Presence ? Psal. 139. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. His Infinite Spirit is not tyed up to a few Predestinarian Electioners , who only conceit they are elected , and saving Grace only free for them , though in Vertue and Uprightness they be far short of many called Heathen , who were a Law to themselves in Truth and Uprightness towards God and man. Sect. III. The Baptist's Quarrel grounded on his Mistake about the Light , and our Testimony of it . T. H. THough it be granted , that God is an Infinite , Immutable and Perfect being ; will it therefore follow , that every thing he created and communicated is his own being ? What man but a Quaker would dare affirm this ? Answ. Thou wrongst the Quakers ( as thou callst them ) its none of their Argument , that because God is Infinite , therefore every thing that he creates is so : But because of his Infiniteness and Omni-presence he is near unto all men , even shining in their Hearts . But it is thy gross Error to take for granted , that his Light in every man is Created ; See 2 Cor. 4. 6. God hath shined in our Hearts , and that Christ that enlightens every man that cometh into the World is God , in worshipping of whom we do not worship a Creature , as thou falsly insinuates against us , p. 6. But thou shewest thy self against the Light , as an Agent of the Son of Perdition , who exalts himself above all that is called God , or that is worshipped ; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God , shewing himself that he is God , 2. Thes. 2. 4. Is not man this Temple of God by right ? And hath not this Son of Perdition or Mystery of Iniquity been exalted in Apostates above all that 's called God ? And what was that that was called God and that was worshipped , above which this Son of Perdition exalted himself ? Was it not a Manifestation of the divine Life and Light ? And what was the Apostles Rule to try and reveal this Son of Perdition by , when he wrought in a Mystery , and as God did sit in the Temple of God , shewing himself to be God ? Is it not the Day of Christ that reveals , and so God himself that makes manifest this man of Sin ? And is not God then the Saints Rule to discover this Mystery ? T. H. Let me tell thee that thy Light is very imperfect , forasmuch as it hath not yet instructed thee by what Name to call it , whether Christ , or only a Measure or Gift of Christ , p. 6. Answ. Thou hast wronged my Light ; sor God is my Light and my Salvation ; and Christ is my Life and Light who is perfect ; and this Christ we preach , as the Light of the World , that enlightens every man that comes into the World ; though we do not say that he is revealedly or manifestly the Light in every man , or by Way of Union , nor yet that Christ ( considered as thou describes him , p. 11. ) as to his outward Birth and Person is in any , much less in every man ; Yet this hinders not , but that as God , or as with Relation to his divine Life and Light , he is Infinite over all , and through all , and in all ; yet to those only revealed and united , who truely obey and follow him in the Measure of his Light which is universally given unto Man-kind . T. H. The Apostle did needlesly exhort the Corinthians to examine themselves , whether Christ were in them or no ( viz. If he were in every man ) p. 7. Answ. Nay , he bad them examine themselves whether they were in the Faith ; for saith he , know you not your own selves that Jesus Christ is in you except you be Reprobates . And if thy Mind were not reprobated and estranged from his Light in thee , thou mightst know him revealed in thee . But as Christ the annointed is a Mystery , he is hid from thee and many more , though his Light be in thee and others that is sufficient to reveal Christ , and leave you without Excuse , and to condemn you for Iniquity . Sect. IV. Christ guides to Salvation by his Inward Light , and the Baptist confounded in his opposing it . T. H. I Grant that every man is enlightened , has a Light in them ; but this doth not prove that this Light in every man is Christ , nor yet sufficient of it self to guide to Salvation ; Christ is sufficient ; but I say the Light in every man is not sufficient , p. 7. Answ. First , If Christ hath given to every man a sufficient Light to leave them without Excuse ( as he hath ) then it is sufficient to guide and direct them unto Salvation ; for if they could justly charge this Light with Insufficiency for this end , this would be an Excuse . Secondly , That Light which is sufficient to convince of Sin , and lead out of it , is sufficient to guide to Salvation ; but such is the Light of Christ in every man. Thirdly , God offers a good end to man , in giving him Life and Grace , Job 10. and this Grace tends to his Salvation , if obeyed ; otherwise mans Destruction is of himself for his Disobedience , and not Designed by the Lord in his giving him Life and Grace . 4thly , Thy denying the Light in every man to be sufficient to guide to Salvation , is plainly enough contradicted by thee , in thy confessing Christ to be the Life and Light of men , p. 22. whose Life and Light is sufficient . And for what end is his Light in every man given , if not to direct unto Salvation ? Thou art not so ingenuous as to relate , though thou both appealst to it , and grantst it ought to be obeyed ; this will stand in Judgment against thee , for thy false Judgment given against it in other Places , as also what thou further acknowledgest , viz. T. H. There is something within that checks for many Evils , and excites to many good things , and that I ought to shun those Evils , and to do that good , p. 8. Answ. If thou didst obey this something , or Light within ( thus acknowledged by thee ) in shunning those many Evils thou art checkt for , and performing the good to which it excites thee , thou wouldst both know and speak better of it then thou dost , as that which both moves and leads in the Way to Salvation , which is from Sin here , and from Wrath hereafter , and so unto Christ , who is the Giver of it . But it is probable thou thinkst thou art an elect Person , and so in thy Presumption slites the Light within , as not only Insufficient of it self to guide unto Salvation , but also as a mis-guiding Light : And this Doctrine herein opposeth thy Maker , and his Universal good to Man-kind ; How then thinkest thou , that the Rebellious can be left without Excuse , or God be known to be clear , when he judges ? Sect. V. The Dipper proved a Blind Guide , and in gross Confusion in undervaluing the Light within . T. H. DId the Light in Saul reprove him for persecuting the Church ? Doth not he himself confess that he verily thought he ought to do many things against the Name of Jesus ? Yea , doth not Christ tell his Disciples , that some would kill them , and yet think they did God Service ? But how could they think so , if this Light in them did reprove for it ? p. 8 , 9. Answ. Thou having asserted , that there are some Sins which the Light reproves not , among these thou instancest , namely , persecuting the Church , doing many things against the Name of Jesus , killing the Disciples , and therefore concludes it no sufficient Rule . O! thou blind Guide , how darest thou thus accuse and undervalue the Light of Christ within , contrary to thy many Concessions elsewhere ? Is Christ the Life and Light of men ? And yet does not his Light reprove Persecution and Murther ? If it reprove not these , what are the Evils it checks for ? What rational Man cannot see thy manifest Folly herein , thus to confound Persecutors , evil Thoughts with the Light within , and to conclude the Light within no sufficient Rule , because of some mens Wickedness , who have rebelled against the Light ; and therein thou hast put Darkness for Light. And what were the Pricks that were hard for Saul to kick against ? And where was that Holy Ghost which the Persecutor alwayes resisted , Act. 7 ? Their Envious and superstitious Minds , and dark Thoughts were not the Light , but such as clouded and obscured the Light in them , yet the Kingdom of Heaven was in those Jews ; and so much divine Light in those Heathen as shewed them , that there was a true and unknown God to be worshipped ( with sincere Hearts and pure minds ) and that in him we live and move and have our Being , had they waited in that Light , and listened to it , they would both truely have known God , his Way and Worship , as some did . If all things that are reproved , are made manifest by the Light , how dost thou exclude those gross Sins of Persecution and Murder from being reproved by the Light ? And why dost thou argue against it , from mens persecuting and murtherous Thoughts , which arise from their Enmity and Rebellion against the Light ? But further I argue against thee on the Behalf of the Light , viz. That its manifesting all things that are reproved , is in order to guide men out of all reprovable Wayes ; which if they be guided out of , they are in their Duty ; For where man is not reproveable for any thing , he is in his whole Duty , and so in the right Way . T. H. Did the Light in the Heathen-Philosophers check them for multiplying their Deityes ? and for not believing that Jesus is the Christ ? Or did it reprove them for their manifold Superstitions ? And were they thereby directed to the right Way of worshipping the true God ? I demand an Instance among the many Thousands of Man-kind , &c. p. 9. Answ. That which might be known of God , which was manifest in the Heathen , and which did open the Eyes of many clearly to see the eternal Power and God head , Rom. 1. that was able to direct them into the right Way of worshipping the true God ; for the reason why many run into Superstition , and to multiply Gods , was because that when they knew God , they Glorified him not as God , but became vaine in their Imaginations , Rom. 1. which was their Sin , and not any Defect of the Light given them from above ; for that Light which gave them the Knowledge of the true God , was therefore able to direct them into the right Way of worshipping him . And whereas thou demandest an Instance , among the many Thousands of Man-kind that hath been convinced or reproved for not believing Jesus to be the Christ , by the meer Light within , before any Light of Revelation was brought unto them . p. 9. Thou still persists in thy dull course of begging the question , while thou takest it for granted , that the Light within is but a Creature or natural , and so not any absolute revealing Light : But this I cannot grant thee , while it is revealing God and his eternal Power to man , that waits in it ; However , thou slites it under thy frequent Phrase , Meer Light within , though it be neither opposed to the Spirit nor Revelation , as thou wouldst have it , while it is Divine and Spiritual . And that thousands of Man-kind are reproved for not believing in the Son of God , is evident by the Spirit of Truth , reproving the World of Sin , because they believe not in the Son of God , in that they do not believe in his Life or Light within , they do not believe in him , who is the Giver of it , and therefore reproved by the Spirit ; and surely many Thousands are comprehended in this World of Unbelievers . Sect. VI. His Ignorance of the Divine Principle . T. H. I Grant that the Light in thee may reprove for those Sins the common Light in all Man-kind will not , because thou hast borrowed much Light from the Scriptures , p. 9. Answ. It s evident thou understands not the Principle of divine Light within , from what thou hast borrowed from the Scriptures , with thy Imaginations perverting them , wherein is thy great Darkness ; thou egregiously mistakeest a litteral Notion and Historical Faith , for the divine Light within ( which is given to all ) which is a pure , Incorruptible and Unchangeable Principle of Life and Truth ; immediately given , and shining from Christ the Eternal Word ; and not mens acquired Notions from the History of Christ's outward Manifestation in the Flesh. But in thy gross Ignorance thou exalts such Acquirements of men above the Principle of Light within : And so mens Historical Profession of the Scriptures as their only Rule , though they much differ in their meanings therein , which they make their Rule many times above the Scriptures , and above the Gift of God ; this is a great Error of you , Litteral Professors . Thou wouldst not be pleased , should I alledge your various Opinions upon the Scriptures , to prove them no sufficient Rule , though thus thou art pleased contradictorily to deal with the Light within . Had the Princes of this World obeyed the Light of Christ within , they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory ; for it would have given them a Sence and Knowledge of him ; there were those that grieved and vext the Holy Spirit within ; would it therefore be a good Argument to say , that his Spirit was no sufficient Rule ? And to what thou sayst of Jesus Christ , as come in the Flesh , a Person prophesied of , born at Bethlehem , p. 11. we never said the Light in every man was Christ under these Considerations , though Christ considered as the 〈◊〉 , enlightens every man Spiritually and Divinely . Both John the Baptist and John the Evangelist gave a higher Proof and Testimony of Christ , then this you Baptists give . When John Baptist said , he is preferred before me , for he was before me ; and John the Evangelist saith , In the beginning was the Word , &c. this was Christ. Sect. VII . His Madness and Self-Contradiction about the Light. TOuching our obeying the Commands of the living Word in us ; for this thou accuseth us with a mental and mystical Reservation , which thou sayst , indeed is no other then a meer mystical Romance , p. 10. For which the Lord rebuk ethy Prophaneness and Irreligious romancing against the Word and Light within . Also thy Blasphemy is very manifest , in accusing what we said of the Light within , as to the Miracles , Wonders or Works wrought by it , to be no more then what the Apostle spake of the man of Sin , 2 Thes. 2. 9. and also , what may as well prove Mahomet to be the true Christ , as the Light in us , p. 11 , 12. Here again thou actest the Part of a Bedlam against the Light in us , which else-where thou hast confest to be Christ , for that he is the Life and Light of Men ; and is not this Christ the Messiah ? They that have believed in his Light within , and so truely made Tryal of it , do know that wrought by it , which never was wrought either by the man of Sin or Mahomet ; for to believe in this Light , is the Way to become Children of it ; the Way to see Darkness and the Power of it to vanish , and so to have Sathan overcome by the Power of Christ received in the Light , and this did never the Man of Sin nor Mahomet ; therefore thy Instance herein is most Blasphemous . And if we be accountable for every Dispensation of Light , according to its kind and degree , p. 13. of what kind is this Dispensation of Light that 's given in common unto Mankind , thou hast sufficiently answered to thy own utter Overthrough in pag. 36. viz. T. H. Yet all this is no Disparagement to the Light within , to say , that God doth make any thing more known of his Will , than is or can be known by this meer Light within ; for 't is but to say that each degree of Light is serviccable to its End. Reply . Where now Mark , that the Difference about the Light that is given in common to all ( and more peculiarly manifest to some ) is not in the Nature and Kind of it , but in Degree , and surely the Degrees of the Light do not alter the Property of it ; The divine Light is one and the same Throughout all Ages , both in the time of the Law & Prophets , & of Christ coming in the flesh ( which was to exalt his mannifestation in Spirit ) And now in the fulness of time , shining forth in a more glorious and powerful Manifestation , the same Light hath shined forth more and more , throughout the several dispensations of God , which were all for the Exaltation and bringing forth of the Light in its degrees and Manifestations of Glory and Power . But what Account wilt thou give to God , for thy so much undervaluing that Degree of Light that he hath given unto all Mankind , as thou hast done . One while in judging it a misguiding Light , another while comparing our Tstimony of it to the man of Sin , Mahomet , &c. Another while , it is so dis-esteemed by thee , as not sufficient to discover or reprove Persecution , and killing the Disciples , and yet we must be acountable to God for it . What mean and confused Thoughts thou hast of it , the Impartial Reader may easily judge by the tenor of this thy most contradictory Discourse . But they who experienced the Increase of Light in them , the Superaddition of divine Revelation , p. 12. the shining of the Light more and more unto the perfect Day . ; & their being changed from Glory to Glory , it was through the diligent Improvement of that Degree of Light , that sure Word of Prophesie shining in their hearts ; and not by opposing and disparaging of it , as thou hast done in thy Pride and Darkness , which covers thee , who art one that stumbles at the Ingrafted Word through thy Disobedience ; In which thou wouldst have us to believe the Light within to be not sufficient to guide unto Salvation ; while thou hast not followed it , to experience the good End of its Guidance , as we have done . Thou pretends to know what it cannot do , but ●…elst us not what it can do , and to what end it will lead if truely obeyed ? Nor what will become of those that improve it , who have not the Scriptures or Historical Relation of Christ , as come in the Flesh ; wherein thou art deficient and difingenuous in all thy Work. Sect. VIII . Christ as the Rock of Ages , and the Intent of his coming in the Flesh not known to Baptists , while they oppose his Light within . T. H. JEsus Christ was a Person of whom there were many Prophesies , which should be fulfilled in him , p. 11. If this Light within be the true and only Christ ; then why was there so many Sacrifices in the time of the Law tipifying Christ to come , since Moses and the rest of the Children of Israel had a Light in them ? If you say , the Light within was not the Messiah , then you deny your Principle ; If it were , what Significancy could there be in those Types , respecting Christ to come , p. 12. Answ. Thou thinkst thou hast caught us in a learned Dilemma here ; but what amounts the tenour of it to , but to tell us , either that the true Christ was not in being in Moses and Israels time , or that he was not in them ; for if he were , thou questionest what Significancy could there be in those Types . But here thou art very dark ; for though Christ's Manifestation did differ both in degree and manner of Appearance ; and though , when in the Fulness of time he came to fulfil the Prophesies and Types of him ; the Power and Glory of the Father was more fully and eminently and signally manifest in him , then in any before ; and the Light more shone forth exemplarily in him ; yet it follows not , that the true Christ was not in being in Moses and in the Prophets time ; or that his Light was not in some Degree manifested , both before , under , and since the Law. If the true Christ was in being , and in any degree manifest , his Light needs must ; but the true Christ was in being from Everlasting , and in time universally shining and manifest in some degree throughout all the Generations of the Righteous , since the World began , being the Rock of Ages , that spiritual Rock whereof all Israel drank , 1 Cor. 10. 4. who said , before Abraham was I am ; this great and most eminent Prophet God promised to raise up unto Israel of their Brethren , which was in a more familiar Appearance , even in the Flesh , though his spiritual Out-goings were before from of old , and he was called the faithful and true Witness , the beginning of the Creation of God , Rev. 3. 14. who faith , behold I stand at the door and knock , if any man hear my Voice and open the Door , I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with me , ver . 20. Now I ask , what and where is that Door that he so universally knocks at ? And is not this the true Christ that thus knocketh ? And was not his Light or Word in Israels Hearts , and his Spirit in the Holy Prophets , by which they fore-saw his Coming in the Flesh , his Sufferings and Glory that should follow ? Now though the pure Light and Glory of the Father was more fully , eminently and signally then ever before manifest , and shining forth in him , as coming in the fulness of time to consummate and end the Types and Shadows of the first Covenant ; whereby he gave a more eminent and signal Testimony of God's Universal Love and Power to man ; this is no Argument to prove that either the true Christ or his Universal Light was not in being , and in some degree discovered before ; for without this no Soul could ever be saved ; it was his divine Light that could minister Life unto the Soul , and not Shadows . Sect. IX . The Dipper plung'd in a Laborinth of self-Contradictions , and the Light within proved a Rule above the Scriptures . T. H. IT will be our Wisdom , yea our Duty , not only to attend the Light within ; but specially to those Revelations of God's Mind and Will in the Holy Scriptures , p. 13. Answ. In thy granting its part of our Duty to attend to the Light within ; thou hast plainly contradicted thy Blasphemy in opposing it in other places as a mis-guiding Light ; and comparing it with the Man of Sin , Mahomet , &c. and judging our following its Conduct as a subverting and anihilating the Covenant of Grace , and that this Light doth directly oppose it , and ought to be rejected , as appears , p. 38. Is it part of our Duty to attend upon that that subverteth and opposeth the Covenant of Grace . O! that thou wouldst consider and see thy Blasphemy , and what a Laborinth of Contradictions thou art fallen into ; as also in thy Concession of attending to the Light within , thou art defective , whilst thou dost not place the special Attention to be upon it , but upon the Scriptures ; whereas the Light within is specially to be attended to , as that which both opens the Understanding in the Scriptures , and discovers the several Conditions which they relate to ; otherwise men are apt to pervert and mis-apply the Scriptures to their own Destruction , turning the Truth of God into a Lye , as they did who turned their Backs upon the Manifestation of God in them , Rom. 1. 19 , 21 , 25. T. H. I conceive enough hath been said to evince , that the Light in every man neither is the true Christ , nor a sufficient Rule to guide us unto Salvation , p. 13. Answ. While Thou are following thy own Conceptions , thou dost not follow the Guidance of the Light of Christ within , and therefore conceivest amiss of it ; for it is a true and perfect Rule , unto which he that loveth & doth truth cometh and bringeth his Deeds that they may be manifest that they are wrought in God , Joh. 3. 21. it is a convincing Rule , that pure and inward Law or Light which converts the Soul ; It doth not onely convict man of Sin , but upon Repentance evidenceth unto him Remission : And this doth not the Scriptures without , to men particularly , though they testify of the several Conditions , which the Light guides the Soul through . The Scriptures testifie against all Sin , but do not shew unto men their particular Sins ; many read the Scriptures , who over-look the Deceits of their own Hearts ; but if they Eye this Light of the Son of God within , it will manifest unto them their particular Evils , and shew them their Thoughts , Motions and Actions , and the Tendance of each ; so do not the Scriptures , they cannot of themselves convince any , as the divine Light can . And this divine Light within discovers all the Temptations , and mysterious Workings , and Depths of Satan to that Soul that waits in it , as they are met withall , and as Satan attempts to insnare , that the Soul may shun his Snares and Wiles upon all Occasions and in all Tryals ; and this does not the Letter without . This Light within also , as a perfect and immediate Rule of Faith , directs the Soul in all the Operations of Faith , against all the Innumerable Temptations , and Tryals , and Besetments of the Enemy , and it opens an Inward Eye of Faith , and is the Immediate Guide to see him who is Invisible through all , but so is not the Scripture : All which being seriously considered , the Light within is the Rule of Faith , and not the Scripture . But if it be objected , That the Scriptures being the Rule of Faith , is not intended without the Help of the Spirit or divine Light in the Soul. I answer , This granteth that the Scriptures are not the Rule of Faith alone , therefore that they are not to be taken as the Intire Rule of Faith , they not being effectual without the Spirit , whereas the Spirit is effectual without the Scriptutes , and able of it self to lead into all Truth . The Spirit or Heavenly Unction considered as a higher Degree , Gift or Effusion of divine Life than that degree of Light that is given in common to all , is attained unto only by those that faithfully improve the Life or Light in its less Appearance , which in some degree appears in every man's Conscience . T. H. I query , whether all the Generations of Christians , since Christ's time until within these very few Years , be not eertainly lost and damned , forasmuch as they acknowledged not this Light within as the true Christ , p. 12. Answ. This shews , thou hast very little Sense of all the Christians , and their Acknowledgments , who thus queriest of them . Did not they acknowledge Christ in them , the Immortal Word of Life and Light in them ? And was not Christ both their Life , Light and Salvation ? And was not the Apostle Paul sent to turn the Gentiles from Darkness to Light ? And did not all the true Ministers preach Christ as God's Covenant , given for a Light and Salvation to the Ends of the Earth ? But in thy dark Thoughts , thou seest not the Drift of rheir Testimony ; but queriest whether all the Generations of Christians till within these few Years be not certainly lost and damned ? And yet thou wouldst be accounted a Christian in this thy Unchristian Work. Sect. X. The Subject Understanding and Obeying the Light within , unknown to the Cavilling Baptist. T. H. WHo or what is it that obeyeth this Light , and in Obedience of it is saved ? Or if this Light be the Rule , it doth suppose a subject capable of understanding it , and of yielding Obedience to it , p. 4. Answ. It s placed in the Heart and Conscience of man , that he ( with his whole Soul , Mind and Spirit ) may understand , and obey it , and come to Life and Salvation in Christ , being guided by his Light in the Conscience . T. H. What then is the Principle ? Either the Light must obey it self , or Darkness must obey it ? Answ. Thy Darkness makes thee talk thus darkly and scribble thus nonsensically , the Spirit of man is to obey every degree of this divine Light given of God , that the whole man may be in Subjection ; for which End God hath given man a spiritual Capacity and Power to obey by the Vertue of Grace , that the reasonable Soul in believeing in the Light , and obeying it , may find Relief and more Power from God , comfortably to subsist in the Way of Life and Peace with him . And though it be not a Scripture Phrase to tell of two such Lights in every man , as thou mentions , p. 14. Yet as the Light of the Body is the Eye which seeth the object of Light , and there is a single Eye which causeth the whole Body to be full of Light ; So in man hath God placed the Eye of the Understanding and Mind , and a Conscience in the reasonable Soul , which is capable of receiving the divine Light , as both the supream Rule and commanding Light ; and they that are translated out of Darkness into it , are become Children of the Light. And if thou wert come to this Estate , thou needst not question who is the subject of Obedience to the Light , whether the whole Person or only a part , for the whole man ought to be the subject ; and where the Eye of the mind is single , the whole Body is full of Light , and no part dark : But for the whole person to be subject to the Light , is inconsistent with thine and thy Brethrens Doctrine for Sin and Imperfection during Life . Why then dost thou now suppose the whole Person to be the Subject , when thou art not real in what thou implyest of the whole Persons being obedient ? p. 15 , 16. And thou dost but play the Fool and Caveller , whilst thou art drawing such a Conclusion upon us , as that by our Principle , the Light must obey it self ; and in so doing be saved ; this is only inferred from a Fiction of thy own Framing , or a Quaker of thy own making , to speak as thou pleasest ; for the Light is given for the Benefit of Mankind , that they that truely follow it and throughly obey it , with Subjection of both Soul , Spirit and Body , may know Salvation from Sin here and Wrath her●…after . And so man ( in his spiritual being , both in Soul and Body spiritual ) as changed or translated from a State of Mortality , may forever enjoy a State of Immortality in Glory hereafter ; as they who are led by the Counsel of God shall afterwards be received into Glory ; for man as translated into that Celestial Spiritual State , is most capable of the full Enjoyment of Glory with God hereafter . Sect XI . Concerning the Soul of man , as under divers Considerations and States , and G. Fox ' s VVords so considered with ; ●…ight Queries added . COncerning the Soul of man , thou vehemently accusest us with Fancies , Conceits , Absurdities , Nonsence and Error , p. 16. Thy Instance for this is , viz. That G. F. mentions in his great Mystery , &c. p. 68. and 100. That the Soul is part of God and of his being , and that it is without beginning , p. 91. and also infinite . p. 29. Whence thy Inference is , viz. Which is as much as to say the Soul is God — then God sets up a Light in himself , which he himself is to obey , and in so doing he shall be saved , p. 16. Answ. We cannot expect any impartial or fair Dealing from thee , while Prejudice and Envy do possess thee , who hast both falsly and ignorantly represented G. F. and both curtayled and perverted his Words and the Sence of them . And all these things mentioned by thee , he does not speak of the Soul or Spirit of man , as made or formed in him , though composed of Spiritual Parts , nor use these Expressions , that the Soul or Spirit of the Creature Man , is a part of God without beginning ; neither was the Phrase ( part of God ) originally G. F's but his Opposers , only admitted of by him by Way of Question , as plainly appears , p. 100. with Relation to that which came out from God , that immediate Spirit of Life , which gives Being Life and Subsistance to the Soul , and he doth distinguish between the Soul and Christ the Bishop of it , between the Soul and the Saviour of it , as plainly appears in many places of the said Book , and the Soul could no otherwise be deemed infinite , then as Man is said to be the Image and Glory of God , namely by a Participation thereof ; so he speaks of the Soul in a two-fold Sense ; as , First , With reference to that which came out from God ( which is the Original Life or Soul of every Man's Soul ) Secondly , With Respect to man , as being made a living Soul by Vertue of the Spirit of Life proceeding from God. And so with Relation to the first , he questions ; Is not that of God , which comes out from God ? Great Mystery , p. 68. But with Relation to the latter , viz. Man , he speaks distinctly of the Soul , as neither God nor Christ ; neither doth he confound the Being of man with the Infinite Being of his Creator , as is implyed in our Opposers angry Charge ; for as every Spiritual Being or Existence is not divine ; so the Spirit or Spiritual Parts of Man are not God , though a divine Light and Capacity is placed in them . And G. F. doth not only speak of the Soul in a two-fold Sense , viz. with Relation to its original Life , and with Relation to man in his Spirituality , but of the Soul of man as in several States ; as , First , Of the Souls being in Death in Transgression , man's Spirit unsanctified ; the Soul being come into Death , transgressing the Law , &c. Great Mystery , p. 91. Therein he cannot intend the infinite Essence , Being or Life of God or Christ , which is immutable , and unchangeably pure and holy , though thereby the Soul is upheld in its Being and Immortality , whether in Comfort or Misery . Secondly , Of the Soul and Spirit of Man as sanctified , living to God in his Life , through a diligent hearkening to the Counsel and Voice of God , and feeling of his Hand , which brings up out of Death , and restores the Soul , that it may live in Christ the Preserver and Overseer of it , to praise God the Saviour , being one Soul ( in that State ) as they that are joyned to the Lord are one Spirit . As also G. F. adds , viz. Every Man that cometh into the World having a Light from Christ Jesus , the Way out of the Fall , the second Adam ; receiving the Light , they receive Redemption and Sanctification , whereby their Spirits , Bodies and Souls are sanctified , Great Mystery , p. 91. Note here still , that he plainly distinguisheth between the Soul and him that redeems and sanctifies it ; so that the Soul or Spirit of Man , is neither God nor Christ ; but as much inferior in Subordination to God and Christ , as the Creature Man is to the Creator , or that which is saved and redeemed to him that saveth and redeemeth . The sum of what 's said amounts to this candid Account about the Soul , viz. That the Soul and Spirit of Man is not the very Being of God , nor a part of God , though the original Life of the Soul which came out from God is immutable and infinite ; there is a divine and infinite Life in the Soul of Man ( which we would have you be sensible of . ) This is the Life of Lives , the Soul of Souls , the Being of Beings ; by which the Soul of man is made to subsist in its Being and Immortality , whether in the Kingdom of Glory or Pit of Darkness ; although this original or divine Life in the Soul stands clear and free from both the Guilt , Torment and Anguish , that comes upon every Soul of Man that does Evil. Every Soul must appear before the Lord in its own proper Image and Nature , which it hath born , been under , and received while in the Body ( having been subject either to the Spirit and Power of God , or to the Spirit and Power of the wicked one ) wherein it s capable of either being a Vessel of Mercy and Love , or a Vessel to hold Wrath and Anguish , according to what it doth here love and effect , and contract to it self whether Good or Evil. Therefore as it s commanded , Take heed to thy self and keep thy Soul diligently , &c. love the Lord thy God with all thy Soul , &c. and then thou wilt know Christ to be the Salvation of it . The Scripture speaks variously of the Soul , and as in divers States and Conditions , viz. 1. Of the Soul of God which is Immutable . 2. Of the Soul of Man , and that , 1. Of the Righteous , which really pertake of the divine Nature . 2. Of the Wicked , which pertake of the Nature of Enmity : And these differ in their Affections , the one being to Good , and the other to Evil. Mention is made of the Soul , as under the Power of Sin , Death and the Grave by man's Disobedience and Fall , and of the Soul as quickned , raised up , and delivered or saved by the Power of Christ , the living ingrafted Word . Sometimes the Soul is mentioned , as including the whole man ; sometimes , as distinguished from the Body ; sometimes it s esteemed as the Life , and sometimes the Spirit or Breath of Life , and an active Soul inspired , and there is a State wherein the Word of the Lord is said to divide asunder betwixt the Soul and Spirit . Now if you do not own a divine Seed , or unchangeable Principle of Life in the Soul ; I query of you . 1st . Do you , or did you ever know your own Souls ? 2ly . What the Soul is in it self , and distinct from the Body . 3ly . What and where is that to be known , that is to change the Souls , and so the whole man's Affections from Evil to Good , while man remains in this Life ? 4ly . Do you own the Souls Immortality , that it doth not dye with the Body ? Do not some of you Baptists hold that the Soul dyeth with the Body and sleeps in the dust of the Earth untill both arise together . 5ly . Whether Man doth not subsist in his spiritual Being and Parts , with a spiritual Capacity and spiritual Sences , having a Sense of perpetual Gain or Loss when his Earthly Tabernacle is put off ? 6ly . Whether the Spirit of Man doth not return unto God that gave it , to receive its Judgment and Reward ? 7ly . Whether Man must not be born again here of an Immortal and Incorruptible Seed in him , if ever he enter into God's Kingd●…m , or enjoy Glory hereafter ? 8thly , Whether it be not more necessary for you to wait in humilily , to know this immortal Seed in you , and to be born thereof ; then to puzzle your Brains , and to busie your Thoughts , either about the Quest●…on how and with what Body are the Dead raised ? Or how your Souls shall be invested hereafter ? If you remain here in the Enmity , slighting and contemning the Light within , or the immortal Principle , or incorruptible Seed within ( as T. H. doth scoff and ridiculously droll at our Testimony for it ) you 'll be clothed with perpetual shame and Contempt hereafter : God knows how to reserve the Unjust to the Judgement of his great Day to be punished ; as both Divels , fallen Angels , and wicked men are reserved . You need not question in what Bodies or Vessels ; for that you shall be vessels fit to hold inevitable Wrath , if here in time you repent not . But if you repent and return to the Lord God , and love and serve him with all your Souls , it will be well with you hereafter ; God will provide well for you ; And the Glory wherewith his sanctified Ones shall be invested ; And of that House wherewith Righteous Souls shall be cloathed upon , is beyond the reach of humane Capacities Thoughts or Imaginations of men . And you who are contending and quarrelling about your carnal Bodies , have not had so much as a Vision of the Glory of the Saints hereafter , nor of the Gloriousness and Spirituality of their Body , who are as the Angels of God in Heaven . Sect. XII . The Neck of the Baptist's Cause broken by his own Concession to the Light within , in which Christ and his Testimonies are effectually received . T. H. HOw could you call the Light within Christ , if some Scriptures had not mentioned Christ in you , & that he is the Life and Light of Men ? Give me an Instance of any Person in the World ( that never had Acquaintance of the Scriptures ) that ever called the Light in every Man by this Name : If none can be produced , then the Scriptures must be your Rule for this , p. 22. Answ. Thou hast said enough in not only granting the Light within to be Christ , but also in confessing that he is the Life and Light of men , which while he is really so to men , this is sufficient for them , to call him as he is ( and appears ) to them : Is it not therefore great Ignorance to imply him an insufficient Rule , for men to give Testimony of him while he is a sufficient Rule and Light to them , for their Supply and Life in him ? And what if they cannot call him by all those Names by which he is called in Scripture , while they feel him in Vertue and Power to be really what he is called , according to their Enjoyment of him . It s true , we having the Knowledge of him as our Life and Light ; we must needs reverently own and make use of those Testimonies in Scripture which concur with our Knowledge of him , and that to evince the Truth concerning his Light to them that pretend a Belief of the Scriptures , while yet they are opposing his Light testified of therein . As there are those that pretend to believe Moses and the Prophets , and think to have Eternal Life in the Scriptures , while yet they really oppose that Life and Light testified of in them . And such profess the Scriptures to be their Rule , while yet they are perverting them against the Life and Light from whence they came ; and this Hypocrisie many of you are guilty of ; and therefore with Abraham we refer you to the Scripture Testimony in this Case , which if you believe not while you profess them , you will not believe if one rise from the Dead . The Scriptures are not our only Rule for our refusing to swear , our not breaking Bread with you , &c. for which thou falsly accusest us of arguing against the Institutions of the Gospel , p 23. for , 1st . We stand for the Reputation of Christianity , and that Love which injures no man , in our res●…sing to swear , which the Prohibition without us did not bring us to , but the Power of Christ when it begat us into that Love , wherein we know the fulfilling of Christ's Command . 2ly . O●…r Experience of Christ Jesus the Living Bread which comes down from Heaven , hath shewed us the Uselesness of your breaking Bread , as being but a Shadow ; while we are come to the Substance ( to wit ) Christ Jesus , the Bread of Life come down from Heaven , which if thou knowest him so come , as that his Flesh and Blood were thy Meat and Drink , thou wouldst not be doting about the Shadow . We do not grant that Christ is so come and revealed in all men , and yet own some degree of this Light to be in all : Thou hast no Reason to accuse us for Lyars in this matter , as in p. 23. But thy slanderous Tongue and Pen is at Liberty in this and many other things . Thy Malice also plainly appears , in charging us of denying the Person of Christ , whereas we have fully confest the Man Christ according to the Scriptures , both with respect to his Sufferings and Glory . Sect. XIII The Baptist's Impious Forgery upon the Quakers about the Scriptures , which are in Reality owned and used by them . AFter thou hast erroniously accused that of God in us , as not sufficient to direct , thou proceedst in thy false fictitious Dialogue thus , viz. Chr. Is it ingenuous and honest in you to deny the Scripture to be a Rule to others , and at the same time you make it ( though by mis-interpreting it ) a Rule to your selves ? Are not you ashamed of this Deceit and self-condemned of plain Partiality . And then he most falsly personates the Quaker . Qua. Thou mistakest us ; for when we make Use of the Scriptures , 't is only to quiet and stop their Clamors that plead for it as their Rule . Reply , Who but an Ungodly Man would have brought forth such a lying Forgery as this in the Sight of the Sun , as the Quakers Words , which is not the Speech of any real Quaker so called , but one of thy own making to speak as thou pleasest for thy own wicked ends ; and thy Lye upon the Quakers is manifest herein : Is this the Way thou proposest for our Conviction , to make Lyes thy Refuge ? Was it not known unto the World , that we have a better and more serious Esteem of the Holy Scriptures then here thou represents , as knowing them to be profitable to the man of God , who is come to know that eminent divine Rule of the Spirit which opens them , and to make use of them in Subjection thereunto . As also our denying that they are the Rule of Faith is no Proof that we deny them to be any Rule at all , while in Subserviency to , and Proof of the greater , we make use of them as the Spirit of God teacheth , and for the Information and Conviction of them that have a Belief concerning them ; for the End still that they may eye that Light and Spirit of Truth which gave them forth , and come to know that Inspiration of the Almighty which giveth the Understanding . As for Deceit , Impudence and presumptuous Conceit , which thou T. H. accusest us of , thou art highly guilty thereof thy self , or else thou couldst never forge such Lyes against us as thou hast done . And we wish thou didst in Reality own the Scriptures , as ( feigndly in Words ) thou pretend'st : So far are we from strenuously endeavouring to take People off of the Scriptures ( as falsly thou accusest us ) that we desire all might come to know the Righteous Ends for which they were given forth , by that divine Light which opens them . Much of thy dirty stuff is gathered out of other dirty lying Pamphlets , which have been long since answered . Sect. XIV . His impious Abuse about Revelation , Light within , Scriptures , &c. ANd why dost thou quarrel against us for owning Revelation , or Perfection as attainable ? What hast thou against Immediate Revelation ? Instead of confuting the thing it self , thou tellst us of some personal Mistakes or Weaknesses of some particulars , as , First , Of one being mistaken by Paul Hobson's speaking through a Trunk [ though that was no Quaker who was thus cheated . ] 2ly . Of others being mistaken about the Persons to whom they should have declared some Message . 3ly . Of a notorious Falshood being taken for a Revelation . 4ly . Of the Opposition of some professing the Light and Revelation , p. 26 , 27. together with several other Stories , and Personal Reflections , which I have very much Cause not to believe . But suppose many of these Stories were true against private Persons : Hast thou herein dealt ingenuously , thus no inveigh against Principles , from personal Failings of such as profest them ; Is there no such thing as divine Revelation , or the Guidance of an Infallible Spirit to be known , because some do err or are mistaken that profess them ? Or no such thing as an infallible Light , because some have differed in some particular Cases that have profest it ? Wouldst thou thus be dealt by concerning thy Water-Baptism , or pretended Gospel-Institutions ? If it should be argued , that because the Dippers are greatly divided among themselves , and that about Principles and Doctrines ; and some of them have been grosly corrupt and debaucht in their Lives , therefore their dipping or Water-Baptism is no Institution of Christ : wouldst thou look upon this as a good Argument ? Nay further , Do you not much differ among your selves in several principal matters ? As about personal Election and general Redemption , and so about the Death of Christ , whether for all or some , and about Free-Will , the seventh Day Sabbath , and laying on of Hands , and about the manner of administring your pretended Lord's Supper , and about the Immortality of the Soul ; as also some affirming Water-Baptism to be of Necessity to Salvation , others not , with several other things ; and yet most of you that thus differ , profess the Scriptures to be your Rule . If then I should from hence argue , that therefore the Scriptures are not the Rule , because you that profess them to be so are so repugnant one unto another , thou wouldst readily reflect Absurdity upon me , though to the undermining of thy own Cause . Why dost thou so much slite the Light within , and insinuate against Revelation , or Perfection from personal mistakes , Weaknesses or Failings of some particulars , supposed . Nay , I may further except against thy Impertinency herein , who durst not produce one Argument against the Principle upon this Occasion when thou wast desired ; for that an occasional Mistake , Slip , or circumstantial Difference is no general Argument to prove a man a false Prophet or Minister never called of God ; seeing that , An Eli and a Samuel might be mistaken , 1 Sam. 1. 13 , 14. and Ch. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. and Ch. 16. Verse 6 , 7. A young Prophet seduced by an old , 1 King. 13 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 22 , 23 , 24. A Paul revoking his Reflection , Acts 23. 5. A Paul and a Banabas in a Contest , Acts 15. 39. A Peter withstood by Paul , Gal. 2. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. Yet these are no Arguments , that therefore these men were never called of God , nor had divine Revelation to prophesie or preach . Neither on the other Hand does it argue that they fell short of Perfection or Infallibility , when they came to see into the Depths of Satan , and how any of them have been overtaken ; for through that which is perfect they out-grew Imperfections and Weaknesses . I must yet take notice of what thou speaks of a Revelation that came from Paul Hobson , who on Purpose to try them spake through a Trunk , yet could they not distinguish his Voice from the Immediate Voice of God , p. 27. Reply , Thou hast herein grosly belyed the Quakers , neither were they either thus tryed or cheated ; howbeit dost thou think that this adds to the Credit of thy Cause ? Was not Paul Hobson an eminent Dipper , or Brother Baptist of yours , who ( when he grew weary of a poor shattered whimsical man in his House , who was no Quaker ) your Brother Paul did feign a Call as from God through a hollow Trunk to the poor man to get rid of him ; as I have also heard the Story credibly related in the County of Durham . Now was not this a horrible Deceit and Cheat of your Brother Paul to presume such an Invention , as in the Name of God ; whether was he the Deceiver or the poor man deceived most to be blamed ? Let the ingenuous Reader and thy own Conscience judge . And so how dully and sorrily thou hast come off , to bring this as an Instance either against the Quakers or Revelation ? How hast thou manifested thy Folly herein ? And wouldst thou and thy Brethren be thus dealt by , to be all reflected upon , or disparaged by the Miscarriage of any particular Persons supposed among you , thou wouldst be ill pleased if I should speak in earnest ; behold what Deceivers the Baptist Preachers are , seeing Paul Hobson their Brother did so impiously deceive and cheat the poor shattered man. And so what Advantage hath thy envious Reflection upon us , been to thee or thy Cause . Again thou bring'st an Instance against the Light within , thus , T. H. Above all , that eminent Difference may not be omitted between J. N. and G. F. at or after J. N's publick Entrance into Bristol , when they called each other the Children of the Devil , and departed from the Light ; A great Party adhered to both in this Opposition of their Lights and Revelations , p. 27. Answ. First , This is a false Relation , the Words were not so between them , nor was the Opposition at Bristol . 2. Nor was the Opposition from the Light in both . 3. It s true , that J. N. was witnessed against by several for turning aside from the Light at that time ; and therefore it is most unjust in thee to cast his Failings upon the Light , or instance it as an Argument against us . 4. J. N. came by the Light to a Sence of his Loss and repented of it ; therefore unjustly imputed either to the Light , to G. F. or us . 5. Seeing there was Opposition between them , it is a most malitious Conclusion of thine , from hence to call us Cheats and Impostors , p. 28. as also in thy 17. pag. thou calls our first fundamental Principle a meer Cheat. Thus thy wicked Design is not only against the Persons , but against the Principles ; whereas our first fundamental Principle is the true Light , against which thou hast thus blasphemed ; for which God will rebuke thee , not only as an impertinent but a most malitious Opposer . And to prove thy Lye , that we endeavour to beget in the minds of men an ill Opinion of the Scriptures , thou dost instance my Saying , that which is spoken from the Spirit of Truth in any , is of as great Authority as the Scriptures and greater . p. 28. But leavest out my Explication , viz. as received , and immediately proceeding from the Spirit and spoken in the Sence thereof ; that is , in the living Demonstration of the Spirit to the Conscience . This I still testifie is of greater Authority then the meer Letter or Writing , though containing the same Words so spoken as I did then instance and explain thus , viz. As Christ's Words were of greater Authority when he spake , then the Pharisees reading the Letter , &c. But do not you Baptists deem your Preaching of equal Authority with the Scriptures , when you say , what you preach is the Word of God , ( however intermixt with your own uncertain Meanings . ) In thy 35. pag. to prove thy calling me a Knave , a false and deceitful Man ; thou sayst , I give not the least hint of thy Explications of thy Positions ; whereas I writ thy Doctrines for thee to give thy own Explications , least thou shouldst say I wronged thee ; yet to this Day I must confess , that some of thy Positions were so absurd and incongruous that I could not hear thee give the least rational Explication upon them , as those mentioned upon Joh. 1. 4. viz. First , Of the Light being natural , because the Light of the Eternal Word . Secondly , That 't is divine as in God , but natural as in man ; for this thou didst not shew so much as the least Colour of Reason or rational Explication . And must I be accounted a Knave , guilty of Deceit , a false deceitful Fellow for not writing all thy Impertinencies ? And yet thou takest the Liberty to leave out my Explication which was most material to my Position ( for the powerful Demonstration of the Spirit ) while it was set down in Print before thy Eye . Oh! what gross Hyocrisie art thou guilty of , thus to rail and revile such as wish thee no Harm , when thou hast no Occasion given thee ; and yet art guilty of that which thou falsly accusest another for . An other dark Accusation of thine is , of a Servant Maid , that should say the Bible is a good honest thing , but she lik't our Friends Books better , p. 29. If thou hadst mentioned the Name of this Maid , and proved the Accusation , what is this to the Body of the Quakers ? Though I suspect this Accusation not true ; but if it were , doth thy inference follow , that our Proselites are thus taught ? O abominable Wickedness ! Where or when did we ever preach such Doctrine ? We utterly deny it , and never heard any of our Friends held or owned it ; knowing in our Conscience , the eminent and reverend Esteem we have of the Scriptures or Bible , as the principle Book extant in the World , though we may not slite but esteem all other Books dictated by the Spirit of Truth in their Places , and for the good ends intended . Another Accusation is , that Fox and Hubberthorn said , the Scriptures are no standing Rule and that it is dangerous for ignorant People to read them , p. 29. Reply , First , As for being the only and standing Rule , they no where call themselves so , but refer us to God and Christ or Spirit within . 2ly , Thou hast wronged and mis-cited their Words in a more general terms then they are ; their Words not being 't is dangerous for ignorant People ; but to their Adversary they say , The Letter which killeth is dangerous ; for thou takest it here to war withal against the Saints , giving out thy carnal Expositions upon it — you read with Danger who make a trade of Scripture — but blessed is he that does read and understand , &c. as in the same page and Book cited by thee , Entit . Truth 's Defence . Mark here , they neither slite nor oppose the sincere reading and perusing of the Scriptures : Now seeing thou abuses and mis-renders ( as hinted before ) such Passages as we find apparent in our Books to correct thee : It s no Wonderment if thou dost abuse divers of our Fri●…nds in thy Stories upon meer Reports and private Discourses , as thy manifest Deceit in mis-citing our Words , which renders thee very suspitious in many of those Stories . Now let the ingenuous Reader take notice of thy Abuse herein . B●…t , 3ly , That it is dangerous for some ignorant or unlearned People to read them , is evident , while unstable and prejudiced in their Minds , not regarding the Spirit or Light that gave them forth to learn by , and give them the right Understanding ; for 't is such as are unlearned who wrest them to their own Destruction . Is not this dangerous for any to pervert them to their own Destruction ? Is it therefore just in thee to compare them to Jesuites and Romanists who thus intend ? Yet 't is not dangerous but useful and profitable to read the Scriptures in Honesty and Simplicity of mind , having regard to that divine Light and Inspiration of the Almighty that gives the true Understanding of them . Another Story is of one Holbrow that should say , that the Scriptures were no better to him then an old Almanack . Answ. This verifies the old Saying , that the Devil will play at a small game rather then stand out . But we utterly deny any such gross Comparison concerning the Scriptures . I am credibly informed of a Ranter that spake these Words above twenty Years ago ; what 's that to the Quakers ? And we have heard of some Ranters that have thus grosly slited the Scriptures , but never any real Quaker . Howbeit thou art not wanting in Envy to brand us with such Calumnies , how utterly soever the things be disowned & abhorred by us : Some Baptists have turned Ranters , and others have mantained Ranterism , and others of them Poligamie ; others again , eminent among them ( as namely of their Leaders ) have turned Papists . Now wouldst thou take it well , if I should endeavour to render you all odious upon their Account ? 'T is probable when they turned Ranters they had a very mean Esteem of the Scriptures . And if I should take this Course of arguing against the whole Body of you Baptists and Dippers ; I might make a large Narrative of the gross Wickedness of many that have been eminent among you ; but that is not my Way of confuting mens corrupt Principles , though sufficient to spoil the Credit of the guilty , and to render them unmeet Guides to others . Yet far be it from me to asperse all amongst you therewith , believing many called Anabaptists to be far more honest and sincere then thy self , or divers of thy Brethren . Elizabeth Marshal saith in answer to the Dialogue , pag. 27. THat about sixteen Years ago I was pressed in my Spirit to v●…sil the People called Baptists in Taunton , and at their Meeting which was then in Taunton Castle , I spake amongst them what was given me of God , which the Meeting with Attention received , and many of them came forth with me lovingly to a neighbouring House , this is true ; but that I should ever say or pretend I had a Message from the Lord to deliver only to Thomas Mercer at Taunton , this is utterly false . And also that Thomas Mercer as an old Acquaintance hath been several times to visit me , this is true ; but that I should say to him or any other person , that it was revealed to me that he was come to deny his Principles , this is also a false forged Lye ; and I think when I shall speak with Thomas Mercer , he will not abuse me with such a Lye , not did he ever reprehend me for such a Saying ; So it is a Lye proceeding from the Father of Lyes , who through his Servants would suggest such things on purpose to render the Truth and those that profess it odious , but the Pit the wicked hath digged for others , they fall into themselves , and the Truth is Clear , and I am Innocent therein , who am yet alive to give this my Testimony under my Hand . Elizabeth Marshal . Sect. XV. His partial Relation against John Story . AGain thou givest a very scanty and partial Relation concerning John Story about the Sufficiency of the Light in every Man , to guide to Salvation without any other Counceller , upon their excepting against the Priest's Book , out of which the Position was read , and refusing to be catechised by thee , &c. p. 30. As for that Contest between thee and John Story , I have heard a more full and impartial Account then thou givest , and how thou wast sufficiently baffled at it , and proved a false Accuser of the Principle of the Quakers , as leading from Christianity to Heathenism , which could not be supposed to relate to those Gentiles that walked up to the Light or Law of God in their Hearts ( for that was really pious and therefore Christian ) but to the impious idolatrous Part : And though John Story and his Friends might justly except against the Priest's Book , as being an Adversary to us , perverting our Principles and representing them to our disadvantage ; yet John Story never receded from the sufficiency of that divine Light of Christ in every man , to guide them to Salvation who believe in it and are obedient to it ; not excluding the Counsel of such faithful Ministers where they are sent , so to direct and turn mens minds from Darkness to the Light , wherein they still submit to the Light of Christ , as the Ground of their Ministry , and the sufficient chief Rule and Guide , which implies no defect in Christs Light , but on the Creatures Part , whose mind is alienated from the Light ; the Insufficiency is not in any degree of the Light it self as a Rule , but they that are turned to it ought solely to depend upon it , in it to know and receive the Light of Life , and Power from Christ against Sin and the Devil . As for John Story and our Friends refusing to be catechized by thee when thou hadst accused them , they might very well , while thy catechizing argued want of Proof for thy Charge , and a Willingness to draw out some Occasion from them ; therefore they had the Advantage to discover thy foolish Rashness . And thou hast made use of divers other lying Pamphlets to prove thy Falshoods against us in many things , and hast raked up in thy Dialogue Slanders out of our Adversaries Writings , which have been long since answered . Reader be pleased to view over these two Accounts ( touching the Controversy between Tho. Hicks and John Story ) that It may be understood how Sillyly Tho. Hicks came off about his false Charge against the Quakers , Devizes the 21st of the 11th Month , 1672. THe Occasion and Substance ( as I remember ) of what past between John Story and T. Hicks at Bromham - bo●…se was as followeth , viz. A Friend of ours visiting some of her Relations that were Baptists in the Vize ; some Discourse passed of the Fewness that was converted of late Years ; to which Tho. Hicks said , it is not now a time for Conversion ; the Friend answered , she believed otherwise , for many had been converted within these few Years by the People called Quakers , the Quakers , said Hicks , their Conversion is but from Christianism to Heathenism , which the Friend said was not so ; but he pretended he would prove it , and came to the Meeting , where John Story layd his false Accusation hard upon him either to prove it or confess his Lye , but he sought many Wayes to evade it — at length Hicks , and an outed Priest that came with him , produced a Book , a Priest's Book ( as was conceived ) in which as they said was contained many Errors collected out of our Friend's Books . John Story replyed to this Purpose , that we shall take no notice of what is printed or mis-represented of our Principles , but we shall claim that Priviledge to state our Principles our selves and to present them as we understand them : And in some Discourse about the Light , John Story laid it down as our Principle , that the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the World is sufficient for Salvation , &c. But Hicks not willing to be beat out of his own Road raised many Intergatories , which some Friends of ours reproving , said , they ( needed not , or ) did not come to be catechiz●…d of him , but pressed him to answer the matter in Controversie , and not permitting their Arguments out of the Book they brought , Hicks and his Company rose up and went away with a Lye in their Mouthes , which was that our Friends did deny their Principles . Samuel Noyes . Chippenham the 15th of the 11th . Month 1672. IT s known here that the matter to be disputed , was Hicks ' s own Assertion under his Hand , which he promised to p●…ve , viz. that the Quakers converted from Christianism to Heathenism , and John Story to make an Introduction into the Dispute ) ( after the People understood the matter to be disputed ) opened to the People what must be understood by Christianity according to the Saints Testimony , and what by Heathenism according to holy Scripture , as to both their Wayes and Worships , by that Hicks found himself at a loss , and surely felt his own Words his Burthen , and strugled much to avoid the proving his Charge , though given under his own Hand ; but Truth bruised his Head and held him fast , God's Power and Wisdom was manifested above the Serpent ; then he pulled out a Priest's Book , and read that which he called the Quakers Tenet , which either the Priest had wronged in his Book , or Hicks in reading , or the Printer in printing , viz. that the Light in every man is sufficient without any other Councellor to guide unto Salvation , leaving out the two Words [ of Christ ] it should have been ( the Light of Christ ) or that true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the World is sufficient ) So our Friends answered they came not there to be catechised by him , but to hear him to prove if he could , that the Quakers converted from Christianism to Heathenism , and said that Book in his hand was a lying Book ; so the Weight of Judgment in the Truth came upon him . These are the Heads of the matter , and manner of the Dispute so far as Friends here at present remember . Take this at present , lest John Story 's Information come not in time . Thomas Neate , William Dyer . Sect. XVI . The Baptist's Disparagement of the Light within contrary to his own Pretence . AFter thou hast pretended no Disparagement to the Light within to say , that God makes any thing more known of his Will , &c. for each degree of Light is serviceable to its end , p. 36. wherein though thou hast granted the Difference to be but in the degrees of Light , and not in the kind ; yet mark what thou sayst afterwards in thy 38. pag. viz. T. H. What intollerable Pride and Arogancy have you arrived to ? And all this in following ( as you pretend ) the Conduct of the Light within , improving it to the subverting and anihilating the Covenant of Grace , which is the only Way God hath revealed ( since the Fall ) for the Salvation of Sinners : Surely then this Light , which instead of directing what you do in a Way of Subserviency to the Ends of this Covenant , doth directly oppose it , is in that so far from being a sufficient Rule , that it ought to be rejected . Answ. Are all these no disparagement to the Light within ? let the ingenuous Reader judge . Hast thou not herein manifestly opposed and deny'd what thou sayst before , for the Serviceableness of each degree of Light to its end : But what Service , if the following or Improvement of any degree of the Light doth either anihilate or oppose the Covenant of Grace : What dark , mad and blasphemous Work hast thou here made against the Light within , which if it ought to be rejected , what account will be given to God for it ; And he , should he give a Light so repugnant to his own Covenant ? Hast thou not told us , that man must be accountable to God for every Dispensation of Light ? But now thou sayst it ought to be rejected : And hast thou not told us , that Christ is the Light and Life of men ? How easie is it to see thy lamentable and blasphemous Contradiction , which thou art fallen into , as a Judgment upon thee for thy opposing the Light. But let us understand how thou discribes this Covenant of Grace , and way for the Salvation of Sinners , since thou dost not own it to be obtain'd by following of the Light within , but the ●…ight within to be Rejected , where thy Christianity comes to be embraced ? We are sure that God hath not planted a Light in man that opposeth the Covenant of Grace , nor is the Light of C●…rist repugnant to 〈◊〉 Christianity , neither can the least degree opp●…se the greater . Thou proceeds thus . T. H. How comes it to pass that Jesus Christ as to the great end of coming into the World , is so much neglected , and the Stress of many men's Hopes laid upon something in themselves ? Hence the Hope of the Hypocrite is compared to the Spiders Web , being spun out of their own Bowels ? Do you not see this in your selves who are the greatest Admirers of the Light within , p. 38. Answ. Still thou runs upon thy gross mistake of the Light within , whereby thou falsely reflects upon us for relying on it : for , First , Our Hope and Dependance upon the least degree of the Light of Christ in us , which is the divine Life of him , as the Eternal Word ; this can neither oppose nor neglect the great ends of Christ's coming into the World in the Flesh , any more then John's bearing witness to the Life of the Word , being the Light of men , could oppose the Word becoming or taking Flesh. 2ly , What were those great ends of Christ's so coming into the World , but evidently to shew forth and exalt that divine Light and Salvation in a greater Fulness and Manifestation , which in some degree did before universally shine throughout all Ages ; or otherwayes how could Christ be the Rock of Ages , or his Outgoings from of old from everlasting ? And whence in the dayes of his Flesh shewed he Light through his innocent Life , Ministry and Miracles , but from that divine Power and Glory of the Father in him ; for God did work them by him ? 3ly , After it s testified concerning God the Eternal Word , that in him ( or in it ) was Life , and the Life was the Light of men , Joh. 1. 4. It s said , that the Word was made Flesh and dwelt amongst us ( or tabernacled in us ) and we beheld his Glory , as of the only begotten of the Father , full of Grace and Truth , ver . 14. and of his Fulness have all we received Grace for Grace , ver . 16. Now mark , this discovery of his Glory , Grace and Fulness was a divine discovery , being as of the only begotten of the Father , of whom John said , he that cometh after me is preferred before me , for he was before me , verse 15. The divine Light of the Word was that by which they had this discovery of Christ , which was beyond that of the outward or fleshly Appearance , which might be seen with a visible Eye , but the other only seen by the Eye invisible and Spiritual ; So that this coming of Jesus Christ into the World , was so far from lessening or destroying his spiritual Light of him as the eternal Word in men , that it was to increase the Knowledge of it , and in order to bring it forth in its Brightness and Glory for the Revelation of the perfect Day of Salvation , And herein he came to render the Appearance and Testimony of his Light within the more valid and effectual , men having erred and been estranged from it . Now is it consistent with the Hope of the Hypocrite to obey the measure of the Light of Christ within , in order to receive more ? Is it not rather consistent with the Hope of the Hypocrite to hope that their Sins are pardoned and they justified by the Righteousness and Obedience of Christ wholely without them , while they are rebelling against , sliting and rejecting his Light within them , and so living in their Sins and Impurity ? And this is thy State and Hope as will further appear ; for who have received Power to become the Sons of God , whom the World knoweth not , because it knew not him ; they have that Hope and Expectation of being made like unto Christ , through his Appearance , and every man that hath this Hope in him purifieth himself even as he is pure , 1 Joh. 3. therefore this Hope which they have in them is both living and effectual , and to be fore it is not placed upon Darkness , but upon the Light. For it is the Inlightening of the Eyes of the Understanding , whereby a Soul is capable of seeing what is the Hope of his calling , and the Power that wrought in Christ , when God raised him up from the dead : Therefore thou who rejects the Light within , thy Eye is blind , thy Hope is the Hope of the Hypocrite , thou neglects the great ends of Christ's coming into the World , which was not only to condemn Sin in the Flesh , as his Light within effectually doth , but also to shew and increase Light , and to manifest the day of God's Salvation by his divine Power in delivering man from Sin and Wrath. Sect. XVII His Slander about the Person , Offices , Sufferings and Blood of Christ and continued Abuse of the Light within . T. H. WHat contemptible Thoughts you have of the Person , Offices and Sufferings of Jesus Christ , that you account his Blood no more than you do the Blood of a common Thief , p. 38. Answ. 'T is no new thing for thee to slander us , while by opposing and rejecting the Light within , thou art become hardned and seared in Conscience . These are such notorious Slanders that thousands can witness against thee therein . When did ever any of us express such contemptible Thoughts of Christ , his Offices or Sufferings ? If we had never exprest any such thing , how comest thou to judge our Thoughts to be such ? And where did ever any of us express such an Account of his Blood that was shed , as no more then that of a common ●…hief ? The Lord rebuke thee for this thy abominable Slander , as I doubt not but he will. T. H. And esteem Justification by that Righteousness which Christ wholy fulfilled in his own Person without us , to be a Doctrine of Devils , p. 38. Answ. Though these are not our Words , we do not own the Doctrine , viz. That men are justified wholy without them , by what Christ fulfilled in his own Person only ; for this is not the Language of the Scriptures which thou pretendest to be thy Rule , Christ fulfilled the Righteousness of the Law in his Person , but here thou makest no Exception , but that Justification is by that Righteousness which Christ wholy fulfilled in his own Person without us , men will only believe this when they reject the Light within , as thou hast taught them . But we are not justified by the Righteousness of the Law , nor by any Act of Christ , meerly as done in his Person , but by the Righteousness of Faith in which we are interested in Christ , as we are Partakers of living Faith which are inseparable . But what is this Justification thou wouldst advance , as wholy wrought without thee ? Is it either in Reallity a making men just , or an accepting of them as Just and Righteous who are so in Reallity , or is it a reckoning of them so , who are actually sinful ? If the former , then 't is not wholy wrought without , but the inward Effect of the Blood of Christ in cleansing from Sin is witnessed in order to bring forth this justified State. If in the latter Sence ( as thy Words import ) then all must be in a justified State for whom Christ dyed ; If their Justification was wholy wrought without them in his Person ; and then all men must be in a justified State ; for Christ dyed for all men ; and then what hast thou to do to revile or condemn any as thou hast done ? those whom thou severely opposest must be in as justified Estate as thou canst think thy self . But if men receive the Pardon of Sin through true Repentance , and Justification through living Faith in the Name of the Son of God , and by his Vertue and Blood , then are not all men justified , nor the Justification of any effected nor fulfilled wholy in his Person without them ; for , First , Men are not in a justified State while their Sins are unremitted . 2. They are not in a justified State while the Wrath of God abides upon them : And mens Sins are unremitted while they impenitently persist in Transgression , and the Wrath of God abides upon them who bclieve not the Son. Again we do not affront either the Grace or Wisdom of God in adding what more Light he pleases to any measure that he hath given , while we are witnessing against mens affronting that measure of Light and Grace which he hath already given to Man-kind . T. H. This Light within directs not our Actions to those Holy and Spiritual Ends which the Scripture does : Alas , whereto do the best of mens Actions naturally tend , p. 37 , and 38. Answ. Here like a dull and dark Opposer still thou endeavourest to confound the Light within with man's corrupt Nature ; whereas thou hast confest it to be not only such a Light as can discover God , and that he is to be worshipped , but also that Christ is the Life and Light of men ; and also that it can discover morality , that its serviceable to its end , and that God's Soveraignity over man , and man's Inferiority to God ought to be acknowledged . And doth not this extend to the same holy and spiritual Ends which the Scriptures direct to ? What more holy then God's Soveraignity over man , and man's Subjection to , and Adoration of God ? But according to Scripture , is it not an holy and spiritual End truely to ●…ear God , work Righteousness , and do Good ? which in every Nation he that doth is accepted : And this the Light teacheth , and Glory , Honour and Peace to every man that worketh good , to the Jew first , and also to the Gentile ; for there is no respect of Persons with God , Rom. 2. 10 , 11. Besides , 't is most natural and proper to a spiritual and divine Light to direct to sacred and spiritual Ends. And if thou didst not vary and waver in thy Confusion from thy Concession to the Divinity of the Life and Light of the eternal Word , which is the Light of men , thou wouldst have spared much of thy Babylonish Work to the contrary , who in thy 39 pag. sayst , that thou opp●…sest not the Scriptures to the holy Spirit , but to the Light within . And why dost thou oppose the Scriptures to the Light within ? Or imply such a Difference between the Spirit and the Light within , while thou hast granted that the Light within is not only serviceable , but ought to be improved , as that which chccks for many Evils , and excites to Good : And does not this agree with the Testimonies of the Scriptures ? And will thy reviling of G. Whitehead , as dealing deceitfully for but asking a sober Question , excuse thee in thy Malice and Confusion ? The Question being , By what Rule shall we be convinced that the Scripture is the Rule , and hath Preheminnece above the Spirit ? Apology pag. 48. which instead of answering directly to , thou revilest me , as in pag. 39. not at all telling me by what Rule shall we be so convinced ; but asks this Question . By what Rule shall we be convinced that the Light within is the Rule , and hath Preheminence above the Scriptures ? pag. 39. Answ. Every one that doth Truth brings his Deeds unto the Light , which Light within being divine is sufficient to evince it self as supream Rule in the Conscience : And as it is so manifest where it is not withstood , but obeyed , it s own Brightness , Vertue and Operation sufficiently discovers it self ; but where Enmity is lived in , and Darkness loved rather than Light , the Excellency of it cannot be known . Concerning the Rule that the Patriarchs or Holy Men had before the Scriptures , thou tellst us , they were instructed by Dreams , Visions and Angels , pag. 40. But were these the standing Rule ? Had they these Dreams and Visions to instruct them in the sole Course of their Lives , or rather on particular Occasions ? Surely these were neither the standing , nor yet their chief Rule : They had a Rule to know the Truth of those Visions ; and whether those Angels were good Angels or no ; a Rule of divine Light to discover whether they were good Angels or evil Angels transforming themselves into Angels of Light , which nothing but that which is divine can discover ; for the Saints in this Light shall judge Angels . And Peter , James and John had both a Vision and Voice ( when in the Mount ) from Heaven ; yet Peter himself testifieth , We have also a more sure Word of Prophecy ●…nto ye do well that you take heed , as unto a Light that shineth in a dark Place , until the Day dawn and the Day-Star arise in your Hearts , 2 Pet. 1. 19. Though the former Vision and Voice were true , yet not so universal and abiding , as this shining Light was . That Vision and Voice was only seen and heard by a few , the other was seen and known by all who attained to the dawning of the Day , and the arising of the Day . Star in their Hearts ; for it did shine as in a dark Place for that end . It s evident that this Light or Word so shining was a Light of the same holy Ghost which moved the holy men of God to speak forth Scriptures , ver . 21. and therefore the Apostle prefers it before the Scriptures , as the Cause of their being given forth . Sect. XVIII . The Baptist's Quarrel against S. Crisp removed . THou makest a great Pudder against S. C. about knowing the Beginning and Date of thy Christ , whom to confute thou pleadst his Deity , p. 44 , 45. having before told us of expecting to be saved by Jesus , as being in a Person without ; what Scripture hast thou for this Creed ? Is Christ the Object of Faith only as a Person without ? But dost thou believe in thy Conscience , that he could intend any such thing with reference to the Deity of Christ ? Why art thou so wilfully quarrelsom ? And though the Appearance of Christ in the Flesh , or as man when upon Earth , was within the Compass both of time and date , that is , as to his coming into the World and going out at his Ascension ; yet still the same man Christ is in being glorified with the Father , in the same Glory that he had with him before the World began . But the true saving Knowledge of whom is spiritual and divine , and inwardly received in his own Light and Life within ; and saving Faith is in his Name and divine Power as inwardly revealed . Stephen Crisp's Answer to T. H. THomas Hicks , I having seen thy Book called a Dialogue , &c. and finding my Name mentioned in page 44. and 45. have very seriously taken notice of thy manner of Rehersal of my Words , and thy own spoken at that Conference which we once had at Bartholomew-Close , and that I know of , I never saw a Narrative of a thing past , given forth with more Falshood and Hypocrisie then that is , and with a known and witting Purpose to deceive the Reader , and to abuse me ; and I am perswaded Thomas thou hast in thy self a Knowledge of it ; and surely except thou repent , and obtain Forgiveness , it will one Day be heavy to thee . The Business or matter upon which we treated was , about our holding and believing Christ to be the Light of the World , or that the Light which lighteth the World , and every one that cometh into the World , was and is the true Christ , which was then proved by plain Scripture ; and whereas I do not intend a Narrative of the Discourse , but only to dis-abuse the Reader , and to make known the Occasion of these Words of mine thou hast mentioned ; therefore I shall pass over most of our Discourse , and come to the matter relating to Christ. And that thou didst say ( as thou mentions in thy Book ) that no Spirit nor Principle was capable of Suffering and being Crucified , is true , thou didst say so , but how faise the matter it self is let the Scriptures be judge . Do they not speak in many places of the Sufferings , Pressures , Vexings , Burdenings , Grievings and Quenchings of the Spirit ? and do they not speak of crucifying afresh , killing and slaying the Lamb of God , the Lord of Glory , the 〈◊〉 One , from the Foundation of the World in the Streets of Sodom and Aegypt , & c ? which Sayings cannot have Relation to that Body that hanged upon the Cross , which was not from the Foundation of the World , nor was ●…ot in Sodom , nor never hanged upon a Cross in Egypt , but he whom the Saints called our Lord , and the Lord from Heaven a quickning Spirit was capable of suffering these things , besides those great Sufferings which he suffered in that Body , in which he conversed with men in the Form of a Servant in the ●…arts of Judea and Jerusalem , whom the Jews took and hanged upon a Cross without the Gates of Jerusalem , who I believe dyed for Sinners , and is raised up again by the Power of God , & exalted therein above the Power which caused him to suffer , and sitteth now at the right Hand of God , and maketh 〈◊〉 for the Saints , and is the Ruler over the true Israel of God , who destroyes his Enemies with the Spirit of his Mouth and the Brightness of his coming : New this Christ of God thus truely considered , I neither said nor thought I knew the Date or Beginning of , as thou dost wickedly suggest ; for I know he is without beginning of Dayes or end of Life , and such an high Priest becometh us to have , and blessed are they that believe in him and are faithful to him : and now having answered what thou malitiously wouldst have the Reader believe , which I am perswaded thou thy self dost not believe , viz. That it is my Judgment and Belief that Christ hath a Beginning and Date . I shall now declare the Occasion of such Words , when I was about to prove to thee , that this Principle of Light was that 〈◊〉 of Ages in which the Fathers and Prophets believed , and that it was that Word which came unto the Prophets , and which was known to Abraham to his rejoycing , &c. thou madest me this Answer , That the Names Jesus and Christ were not proper unto any Spirit , Word or 〈◊〉 whatsoever , either in Heaven or in Earth , but unto that Body or Person which was born of the Virgin ; to which I replyed , I remember John Newman hath written so in his Book , but I had thought you Baptists had not owned him in it , but now I see you do , and thou saidst , yes thou didst ; for though thou grantedst , that the Word and Spirit was from the beginning , yet that was not , nor could not properly be called Christ , or Jesus , but that Person that was born of the Virgin , that only was Jesus and Christ ; where uppon I 〈◊〉 then I know the date and beginning of thy Christ ; upon which thou criedst out Blasphemy , to which I replyed and asked thee , if thou thoughtst I did not know how long it was 〈◊〉 he was born as well as thou or another man , &c. and after that did prove to thee by plain Scripture , that the very Assertion was false , to say there was no Jesus nor Christ before , and did mention the Rock of which the Fathers did drink , and which followed the Jews in the Wilderness , which Rock saith the Apostle , was Christ , not is now become Christ , but was Christ ; and the same Apostle saith , that God made all things by Jesus Christ ; mark , Thomas , if this be so , then he was before Mary was , or besore he became Flesh , or took that Body made of a Woman ; for the Prophet testified , that he that should be born in Bethlehem his Out-goings was from of old . I say the more concerning this , because thou endeavour'st to cast the Socinian Leven ( of which thou didst appear that night too full ) upon me , as if I looked upon Jesus Christ as a meer Creature , whose beginning and date I knew , when as those Words were only spoken with Detestation of , and in Testimony against thy corrupt Socinianism that Night uttered , who also made a great Stir with me for saying , the Eternal Son of God. Thy Foundation is manifest , Thomas , thou canst not hide it this Way ; and as concerning thy foolish pratling in page 45. that if I knew his beginning then he was not God ; and if I knew his date , or when he ceased to be , then he is not man ; this is not all worth the answering , the pretended Foundation thereof being taken away , and thou left naked in thy Folly and Perverseness , having shewn thy self but as one who makes a Likeness of a man , and sets it up , and then beats it down again , and goes away and boasts of Conquest . But for a Conclusion , I shall ask thee and thy Reader a Question : Suppose that a man should affirm to me that all things come by Nature , and that there is no universal Spirit of Life to quicken them ; and I should answer thereuppon and say , Then there is no God. I query , were this sufficient Reason to charge me , that I were an Atheist , & that I held there was no God , or ought it not to be taken as detecting the Atheism of the first Assertor ; this is my case with thee , which I refer to that of God in all Consciences , and let that judge in and amongst men ; and thee I leave to receive the reward of thy work at the hand of God , who is just & will not let the guilty go unpunished . Whereas thou ( T. H. ) seemest offended at us for saying , Christ is within ( in whom as such we have living Faith ) as opposed to their Faith who know not him within , but expect to be saved , as believing in a Person without them , as thy Phrase is , p. 44. It appears this is the manner of thy Expectation and Belief , expecting to be saved by Jesus as a Person without thee , though thou hast no real Knowledge of him as such . But it is to be minded , how plainly before thou hast contradicted thy Faith , as thus declared , where in thy 24th . page upon 2 Corinth . 5. 16. thou dost thus paraphrase , viz. Though I Paul when a Jew , and in my unconverted State only knew Christ after a fleshly manner , to be a King of the Jews , and to deliver only from outward Bondage and Captivity , yet henceforth , from the time of my Conversion I know him so no more ; for now I know him according to that design of infinite Grace and Love , which he came to carry on in the World , in being a Saviour of Sinners from Sin , Death and Hell , which before I knew not . Thus far thou . Mark , here thy Contradiction is plain , one while believing in , and expecting to be saved by him , as a Person without ; another while , from the Time of my Conversion , I know him no more after a fleshly manner ; for now my Knowledge of him in being a Saviour from Sin , &c. is not after a fleshly manner , but according to the design of infinite Grace and Love : From whence it follows , that he is not now known to be the absolute Saviour from Sin , as a Person without , or as considered after a fleshly manner but after a spiritual , ( though he was truely a Saviour in the Dayes of his Flesh , by the Power of the Father , by which the Saving Work alwayes was and is inwardly effected ) And indeed his going away or dis-appearing after the Flesh , was , that his Appearance and Knowledge after the Spirit might be the more revealed ; and the Disciples might the more know and rely upon the Comforter , even Christ's Spiritual Appearance within . Sect. XIX . The End of Christ's Coming , Example and Suffering more truely owned by the Quaker then the Dipper . AGain thy implying by Way of Question , as if we owned that the Word did take Flesh , and that the Flesh was crucified for no other End and Purpose then meerly to be an Example , p. 47. is very false against us ; for our owning Christ in the Flesh to be a living Example , does not argue that he took Flesh , and was crucified for no other End and Purpose , then meerly to be an Example ; for he came into the World , both to bear witness to the Truth , to shew Light , to do the Works the Father sent him to do , to war against the Power of Darkness and Wickedness , to exalt the Divinity , the Power of the Father , and to glorifie him upon Earth , to pass through and fulfil the first Covenant , and end the Shadows thereof ; and to set up the new and the living Way , that the second Covenant or Testament might be established and confirmed ; that the Living Ministry thereof might have its free Course , being inforced above and beyond all the former Types , Shadows and Vails under the first Covenant . And so in offering himself up freely , both to do his Fathers Will , and to suffer for Man-kind , he gave himself a Ransom for all to be testified of in due time . As also he was an eminent Example and Pattern of Innocence and Piety through all , which they that slite his Example , have no Benefit in his Sacrifice , nor are concerned in the Ends thereof otherwise then to their own Condemnation ; for Christ's Innocency and Righteousness , even in the Dayes of his Flesh , as openly manifest , do both judge and condemn all the Hypocritical Professors of Christianity , who refuse following his Example , while they are applying the Ends of his Coming and Suffering . Sect. XX. The Baptist's Ignorance and Cavil about Redemption and the Spiritual Discoveries of Christ and his Seed . WHereas thou makest a peice of thy Dialogue , p. 47. run thus viz. Qua. He ( viz. Christ ) comes to work Redemption . Christi . I query , for whom or what did he work this Redemption . Qua. There is a Seed to which the Promise of Redemption is , which only wants Redemption : Thus Nayler in his Book , Love to the Lost. Answ. Thou perverts his Words ; for they are not , That this Seed only wants Redemption , but wherein only it s seen and received , viz. that in the promised Seed Redemption is only seen and received by Man or the Creature , as he fully after explains . Chr. Nayler saith , that Christ is the Election , and the Elect Seed ; and Fox in his great Mystery , the Seed hath been laden , &c. which Seed is the Hope Christ. Answ. If God was so prest as a Cart with Sheaves , and his Spirit grieved by mens Sins , is it otherwise with his Seed in them ? And it thou wert not willfully blind and hardened , thou wouldst not raise such a Consequence from the Words before perverted by thee , while the Scripture mentions the Seed under a two-sold Consideration . 1st . As to Christ , to whom the Promises originally are , as being Heir of all . 2ly . As to the Children of Promise the Children of the Kingdom , the true Believers , who are truely Israel , and of Abraham's Seed according to the Faith. Now know that Christ , the promi ed Seed , hath entred into Sufferings and Travel of Soul to bring forth his Seed : as it s written , He shall see his Seed , he shall see of the Travel of his Soul , and shall be satisfied So he came not to redeem or save himself ( as absurdly thou infers ) but to bring forth and redeem a Seed which shall serve him , and be counted for a Generation . And the Life of Christ as manifest in mortal Flesh , hath pertaken of the Afflictions of the Upright in all Ages ; and the Spirit of God is grieved , the just Principle oppressed and offended with mens Iniquities and Transgressions : So Christ considered as a Seed , and in that low Estate is capable of being formed in man , both of being raised up in man by the Power of the Father , of growing up as a tender Plant , and as a Root out of dry Ground ; and so of receiving Power and Help from him , as indeed every Seed that 's sown , and every Plant that takes Root is capable of receiving Vertue and Nourishment according to its kind , or else it cannot be quickned to Life , grow or bring forth Fruit : And such a Growth of the immortal Seed was both in Christ and in his People , which must be owned , if the Seed of the Kingdom within , and the Spiritual Birth or forming of Christ within ( or he as a Seed or Plant of Renown ) be known and owned , or a Suffering , Crucifying , Dying and Living with Christ be witnessed by man. For Christ's Suffering , Cross , Death , Resurrection , Life and Dominion are spiritual , known in the true Believer , who is of that Seed which Christ took upon him ; yea , his spiritual begetting , spiritual forming in man , and spiritual birth is known within ; and all for the Redemption and Salvation of man to God , or else he falls short o●… L●…e and Glory ; and he that brings up the Soul out of the horrible Pit first descends thither . And though it s not true to say , he only comes to redeem , raise up or save himself ; yet it may be truely said , he doth arise to scatter his Enemies , and to bring man out of the Pit ; and in conquering his Enemies , his own 〈◊〉 brings Salvation to him , Isa. 63. 5 , 9. And thus saith the Lord , in an acceptable time have I heard thee , and in a day of Salvation have I helped thee ; and I will preserve thee , and give thee for a Covenant of the People , to establish the Earth — that thou mayst say to the Prisoners go forth , and to them that sit in Darkness , shew your selves , Isa. 49. 8 , 9. which Promise is of a general Extent . So mark here , He that redeemeth the Prisoner , and calleth forth them that are in Darkness , he hath his help of God that sent him ; we are not to conclude that he helps not others , because he is helped himself : And Christ's Sufferings both inward and outward ( for they were two-sold ) were for man's Benefit ( as is testified in the said Book [ Love to the Lost ] accused by thee ) The Creature is blessed of God for the Seeds Sake , and Redemption from the vain Conversation , as Christ gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from all Iniquity , &c. So if thou wert thus redeemed , thou needst not enquire for the Subject of Redemption , nor accuse others for owning the Seed of God , both in an oppressed State , and as raised up by the Eternal Power and Glory of the Father ; for wor thy is the Lamb that was slain from the Foundation of the World , to receive Power , and Wisdom and Glory and Might , &c. However T. H. slites our Testimony of the Seed of God within , as in several States ; and so the spiritual Resurrection of Christ in man ; his Brother H. G. confesseth thereto in his Book , p. 54. where he saith , Praises and Halelujahs to God for ever , who hath given us that Witness in our selves of which thou speakest , that we can experience the Power of Christ's Spiit risen in us for our Sanctification and Renovation , as well as Christ was raised from the Dead , &c. Thus far H. G. Is it not here evident , that he hath confest to Christ's arising in man , for man's Restoration ? What thinkst T. H. of this ? Is this Canting or Gibberish ? as his Words are against us , p. 47. Moreover , as the elect Seed is spoken of in the Scripture , both with respect to Christ the Anointed , and with respect to his Seed and Heritage ; so also the Seed is Christ , not only as in himself a●…ointed with the Oyle of Gladness above his Fellows , but also as in Union and Conjunction with his Church or Members : As the Body is one , and hath many Members , so also is Christ ; and so Christ and the Body comprehensively is one ; he is the Anointed , and we are anointed in him , and he that hath anointed us is God. By all which it is understood , that we are Partakers of the Life , Redemption and Priviledge that is in Christ , as we are in him , and grow up in him ; so that all our Opposers Cavils ( which render our Principle as only including Christ and God in the Redemption , and not man ) do fall to the Ground , as Groundless and Frivilous . As for his groundless Cavills in his p. 48. The little Understanding he hath either of the Measure of God's Gift , his Seed within , or of Redemption by Christ , the Elect Seed , is very intelligible from the Tenour of his impertinent and contradictory Discourse throughout his Pamphlet . By all which we see the Nature of his pretended Christianity , and how Un-christian he is in his appar●…nt Oppositions against the divine Light and Seed within . Sect. XXI . The Baptist's Imperfect Work against Perfection . COncerning Persection which we say is attainable in this Life , he attempteth to confute us , though very feebly here , as will appear . T. H. I perceive you are forced as much as any others to borrow from the Scriptures , without which you can no more prove any thing , either concerning Christ or Perfection , then a meer Indian , p. 49. Answ. Touching which it appears , while thou grantst something for Perfection we proved from Scriptures , how consistent with this thy after Work is , against Perfection , will ●…rther be manifest : But while thou concludes , that we can prove no more of Perfection then a meer Indian without the Scriptures . How agrees this with thy former confessing , that Man was alwayes under an Obligation , that God's Soveraignity over him , and his Inferiority unto God might be acknowledged . Now if this be truely to be acknowledged by Man or Mankind in general , why are Indians excluded ? And if God's Soveraignity over man , and man's Subjection thereto be known , doth not this extend to Perfection ? If either the Rule be perfect that thus obligeth man , or if in God's Rule Power or Soveraignity ( as over man ) be Perfection , which we affirm is able to evince it self , where true Fear and Subjection to God is lived in , or Sincerity and Uprightness towards him retained : Though to such as thou art , who opposes Sin-less Perfection as attainable in this Life , there is a need especially of producing Scriptures to prove it , while you pretend a Belief of them ; for the perfect Light or Gift of God within you do not believe in . Yet thou hast granted to Perfection , as sincere and upright , p. 50. and is not this Perfection of Sincerity and Uprightness without Sin ? Were it good Doctrine to say , that Persection , as it respects the Sincerity and Uprightness of Saints is sinful ? But that a perfect Freedom from all Sin in this Life is attainable , we intend is by the all-sufficient Power of Christ ; and no true Christian doth dissent from us herein : Nor doth this cause either Pride or Presumption , as thou falsly insinuates ; but the contrary Sin-pleasing Doctrine that 's for Imperfection and Sin while in this Life . And while thou confessest a holy Fear , Humility , Watchfulness and Industrious Endeavours to persevere in a Holy Course to the End , p. 50. Either thou dost hereby grant Perfection , or a perfect Freedom from all Sin attainable in this Life ; or else thou excitest People to be industrious , and endeavour for that which thou believest is not attainable ; which is as much faithless Inconsistency as to say , use your industrious Endeavours to persevere in a holy Course ( that is sinless ) to the End , but it is not attainable : Were not this a sad and Heartless Way of Preaching , to put People upon Impossibilities . Again upon Phil. 3. 15. as many as are perfect , be thus minded . Thou sayst , By Perfection , no more can be understood in this Text , then Sincere and Upright , accompanied with an earnest reaching after Perfection , as Paul did , p. 51. Answ. What ever Perfection with respect to a full Apprehension or Knowledge was prest after by Paul , as Phil. 3. 12 , 13. yet this his Perfection granted of Sincerity and Uprightness was sinless ; it was pure in Nature , wherein he was capable of attaining a perfect Growth in spiritual Understanding : And this is implyed in his pressing after Perfection , while he was perfect , as appears in his own Words . But if in this Sence sincere and upright Men do earnestly reach after a sinless Perfection , and that Paul did so , then it is attainable , otherwise both Paul and the rest did ●…rnestly strive after an Impossibility ; and this renders both their Praying , Striving and Preaching in valid as yours is , who put on People earnestly to reach after Per●…ction , and yet tell them it is not attainable . Upon Mat. 5. 〈◊〉 . Be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect , thou presumest , We intend not that we should be perfectly powerful wise and good as God is . Answ. 1st . We do not intend that we should be God , but holy , just and good men , renewed after his own Image which is perfect . 2ly . Though not so perfectly powerful and wise as God is , yet while thou withal excludes being good as God is , thou art contradictory in saying , the meaning of the Text is , Be Merciful , as your Heavenly Father is Merciful , that is , Love your Enemies , do good to them that hate you , p. 51. these are not intelligibly consistent , That we must not be good as God is , and yet Merciful as he is , that is , love our Enemies , &c. I would know if that Soul is not endued with the Goodness of God , that is endued with his Mercy and Love , so as to do good to enemies : Was it not a plain Caracter of being his Children , when they did so love their Enemies , and do good to them that did hate them ; See Math. 5. 44 , 45. But this perfect Resemblance of the Heavenly Father , such Sin-pleasers and pleaders ( as T. H. ) will not admit of in this Life , who is so far from this Love and Goodness towards Enemies , that his Enmity leads him to abuse , bespa●…ter and defame such of us , who never owed him or his Friends ever any ill-will in the World. But when doth he expect this divine Resemblance of God , or sinless Perfection to be brought forth ? It doth appear in Answer to the Question stated by him thus , viz. Where wouldst thou be perfectly free from Sin , if not in this Life ? His Answer is , in Heaven , p. 50. Reply , He would be perfectly free from Sin in Heaven , as he pretends , but opposeth Perfection being attainable in this Life , accounting that it causeth much Pride , Presumption , hinders all holy Fear , Humility , Watchfulness and industrious Endeavours to Persons in a holy Course ; whereas this all tends to a perfect Life : But sufficiently hath he contradicted this his sinful Doctrine against a perfect Freedom , where he confesses , p. 24 , That Christ came to carry on in the World the Design of insinite Grace and Love , in being a Saviour of S●…ers from Sin Death and Hell. Note here , he hath given a deadly Blow to his own Imperfect lame , and Sinfull Cause ; for if Christ came into the World to save Sinners from Sin , and to redeem us from all Iniquity ; then to be so saved is attainable in this Life ; for Christ is able perfectly to do the Work which he came for , that is , to save from Sin , and to redeem from all Iniquity . Again T. H. in his Forgery deals very corruptly according to his ●…onted manner , in stating the Christian and the Quaker thus speaking viz. Chr. If thou canst prove a perfect Freedom from Sin 's Inherency , &c. remember thou must prove it by Scriptures or Instances , Qua. I will prove it by both . First , By Scriptures , Phil. 3. 15. Math. 5. 48. Secondly , By Instances , Many of our Friends do witness it , p. 50 , 51. Reply , Herein most falsly and abusively he hath acted the Quakers , speaking his own Notorious Forgery as Proo●… . They have no Reason to chuse him for their mouth ; for what needed they bring any Instances of themselves for any Proof , when they are left to prove Perfection by Scriptures , or Instances , while the Scriptures plainly prove it . And let me tell him , it is not our manner of arguing with our Opposers , to tell them , that many of our Friends do witness Perfection , knowing , not only that to be the thing which they seek to reproach us by ; but also that to plead the Verity of Principles from the meer Credit of Persons asserting them , to be no prevalent Proof , nor Effect any Conviction , while the Persons themselves are slited and abused . But our Adversary having thus falsly acted the Quaker as before , as saying , many of our Friends witness Perfection , he declines the Scriptures for it , and falls upon personal reviling ; and to express to the World some wrong Expressions and Mistakes of Persons . If he rightly state them , which I much question because his many notorious Abuses . Sect. XXII . Tho. Hicks his groundless Calumny and malitious Railing against G. Whitehead . NOw we come to his Railing and Sla●…der against G. Whitehead , viz. That he is guilty of Deceit and Falshood in matter of Fact ; and that he told him he was a Knave , that is , he was a false deceitful man , p. 53. Answ. Here I shall take leave to answer for my self ; therefore understand , Reader , what he pretends as his Reason for this abusive Language to me . I find two things he pretends for it . First , He accuseth me with denying mine Opinions , when charged with them . 2ly , He that shall give a false Relation of what another man asserts , and does it wifully , is false and Deceitful : But th●…s he accuseth me ; and why so ? But because I acknowledged Explicatio●…s to be given to his Propositions , yet gives not the least him what t●…ose Explications were , p. 53. Reply , To the first , what I did deny , I still do deny , as none of my Opinions , as stated by T. H. in his accusing the Quakers , That they deny the Person of Christ , his Offices , Sati●…action and the R●…surrection of the Body . I do recharge these upon him , as his Lyes and Slanders forged and brought forth in Envy and Darkness , as I did in the Paper and publick Debate between us ; and in so doing I do not deny any Opinion or Tenent of mine or my Friends : And he dealt most dis-ingenuously in not laying down my own Words to prove that I denyed the Person of Christ , or his Offices , Satisfaction and the Resurrection . But instead thereof was it either ingenuous or honest to bring my ●…dversary T. D. his Pamphlet , stiled a Sinopsis ( which falsly accuseth me with saying , there is no Resurrection from the Dead ) for Proof ? Most falsly instancing my Answer to W. Burnet , in which Answer ( quite contrary to what I am accused o●… ) I have given a plain Confession to the man Christ , his Offices , Satisfaction and the Resurrection according to the Scripture , though 't is probable not in my Opposers Words and Terms ; for note that his Charge which I denyed , was not that the Quakers deny the raising again of this very Body of Flesh , &c. but the Resurrection of the body ( in this general Phrase . ) Is it therefore ingenuous that I should be thus accused in these general Terms ? And when I cannot in Reason or Conscience own T. H's manner of stating things , as my Opinions in his own Words , both besides and contrary to what my Words were or are , must I therefore be called a Knave , a deceitufl Fellow , & c ? Whereas my Conscience bears me witness , that if he had stated either my Affirmations or Denials in any Case in my own Words , Books or Writing , I would not in the least have disowned or receded from them as mine ; but either have stood by them , or upon plain Scripture Evidence to the contrary , should have fallen ●…nder Conviction and Reprehension , according to the nature of the Error or Mistake , if truely detected or proved guilty thereof . As concerning the Resurrection , I am so far from bauking my Testimony , or receding from what I have and do hold concerning it , that I am intended ( if God permit ) to speak further thereof , according to the Sence and Understanding given me , and that before I have done with my present Opposers . But whereas T. H. takes the Liberty to be the Quakers Mouth , and to present them as speaking those impertinencies and Falshoods which are meerly his own Forgeries , and ●…ever believed nor intended by them : Let the unprejudice●… Rea●…er judge , whether he be not highly guilty of Falshood and Deceit herein , as in divers things hath been signi●…ed in this Discourse . And as for his second Accusation , admitting that I did not write down all his Explications upon his Positions ; 't is no Proof , that the Relation of what I gave was false , as very sillily he accuses me ; Neither hath he proved that I have given a false Relation of any one Position of his . Besides , in some of his Positions , the very Substance of his Reason or Argument , is therewith inserted in my Paper ; others of his Positions are so absurd and gross , that he could not make so much as the Colour of a reasonable Explication upon them ; and therefore I did endeavour to induce him upon more deliberate Conside rations , to produce what Explications he could for his Doctrines ; for which these were my Words , If our Opposer say we have not inserted his Explications upon his Assertions ; our Answer is , that 's his Work , he hath Liberty to do it himself . Now if for this he must revile me in the open Street , calling me Knave , and shaking his Stick at me : If the Baptists will prove men Knaves at this Rate about Principles or Opinions , they will make all Knaves that oppose them , who do not relate all Circumstances of Words , as well as their Assertions , how impertinent soever . Though I am unwilling to reflect upon all of them for this outragious and uncivil Carriage , and defaming Language of their Brother Hicks ; for his Brother W. Kiffin did somewhat ingenuously shew his Dislike thereof openly ; yet when he attempted to prove it , adding thereto against me such Language as this , viz. impudent Fellow , audacious Fellow , deceitful Fellow , &c. To excuse him herein , some of his Companions said , it was his Zeal ; but this Cover was too narrow ; such hypocritical and false Excuses will not hold up the Credit of T. Hicks and those his Adherents . And be it reminded , that in divers things he hath both curtail'd and wholy left out my Explications , particularly of that Passage cited by him in his 28. pag. viz. That which is spoken from the Spirit of Truth in any , is of as great Authority as the Scriptures , and greater ; here he stops and leaves out , As received and proceeding immediately from that Spirit , and as Christ's Words were of greater Authority when he spoke , then the Pharisees reading the Letter , as before hinted : See here he hath called me a Knave for that which he is more manifestly guilty of ; and so is condemned out of his own Mouth , in that which he allows himself in . And I desire that Tho. Hicks may look at home , and examine his own Conscience , whether he was not in himself detected for that his Passion and Fury towards me ; I would not have him go on wronging his own Conscience , nor withstand that Light in him , which in secret would shew him his Infirmity and Evil , in this matter of Passion and calumnious Railing , whereby he will never gain upon the Spirits of any , who are tender and sincere to God. But instead of repenting thereof , he brings the same Language over again in his Postscript , after he has had both reproof and deliberation to have learnt better , but it appears he is disturbed and royl'd in his Spirit , as a man guilty , and therefore shuffles to ease himself , by telling us again thus , viz. I told G. W. he was a Knave , wherefore I did then , and do so still esteem him , &c. really false and dishonest , p. 91. To which G. W's reply is , the Lord forgive him ; howbei●… I am at defiance of my Adversary's implacable Enmity , and do challenge him and all the World justly to detect me of dishonesty , or of acting against my Conscience , or to the Injury of any one living , knowing my own Peace in the Testimony of a good Conscience towards God and Man ; I do really defie the Envy of the Devil and all his Agents . And T.H. cannot hide his Passion and 〈◊〉 , by his begging the Question , viz. Doth not that Quaker who wrote that Book called the lying Wonder . p. 9. endeavour to fasten these terms of Fool and Knave upon J. G. Whereas his Case was not the same with mine , nor is he positively so charged , for his Brother J. G. attempting to attest the Anabaptist's lying Wonder out of Lincolnshire , upon the meer Credit of his Brother Ralph James ( the Fomentor of it ) as having been an Elder of a Congregation many Years , from whose Mouth J. G. had the Relation of a great Miracle done by the Prayers of their Church ( though contrary to their Faith , who affirm that Miracles are ceased long since ) and yet in his Letter to his Elder R. J. to desire a Reason why this great handy Work of God hath been so long concealed from Publication , when he himself knew of it some Months before , as also Ben. Morley , as J. G. affirms ; to which the Words are added by T. R. thus , viz. Whether J. G. be not as much Fool as Knave by his own handy Work , let his Brethren judge . See here it s referred to his Brethren to judge in this Case , which was , 1st , His deposing the lying Wonder under his Hand from the Credit of the Forger . 2. His pretending to desire a Reason of its being so long concealed , when he himself knew of it some months before ; though they have not judged his Folly ( at least ) in this ; but T. H. hath positively called me a Knave , a deceitful Fellow , &c. 1. For not writing all his Explications upon his Doctrines ( which are false ) 2. For rejecting his Charge against the Quakers ( of denying the true Christ and the Resurrection , &c. ) as false and slanderous , being we own both according to the Scriptures , Judge candid Reader this mans Shuffling to cover his Envy & malitious Railing . ct . XXIII . The Baptist's Abuse against G. W. about a Meeting with them at Devonshire House , the 18th of the 7th Month , 1672. and T.H. taking part with a Socinian Pamphlet . HIs accusing me of so much Partiallity as renders me Guilty of very Great Imperfection , p. 54. about a Relation of what happned betwixt him and me , at a Meeting in Devonshire House , the 18th of the 7th Month , 1672. This is of little value to me , while I and many others know the contrary : and while he neither proves his Accusation ; nor gives either a true or impartial Narrative thereof himself . But his chief pretended Proof against me , is our saying , the Baptists seemed more like Beasts then Men , several at once making a bawling and hideous noyse , &c. The truth whereof many were eye and ear . Witnesses ; and he cannot clear them herein : But instead thereof , falsly says , the Quakers manifested as much Rudeness , as the worst of men are wont to do to their Opposers . But in this also , he hath very grosly belyed the Quakers : And he may know in his own Conscience , that he himself was a pattern of Incivility towards us ; stirring up his Proselytes into Rudeness by his Passion and ill Language , as Knave , deceitful fellow , audacious fellow , impudent fellow , &c. whereas he had no such Language , nor Behaviour from me , or my Friends . Besides , there were many of his Friends , and but very few of mine had notice ; Because some of the Baptists pretended before , to me , that there should be but a few of their friends , and therefore I acquainted but very few of mine ; otherwise , I should have made it more publick , if they had but dealt ingeniously by me , which I must say , they did not herein . And for him , thus to charge the Quakers with manifesting as much Rudeness , as the worst sort of men . He doth not so much herein , as ex e pt common Revilers , Drunkards or Persecutors ; so that his slander is the more gross and notorious . He saith that they called to speak directly to the Question ( viz. ) Whether this Body of Flesh and Bones shall arise again ? To which Whitehead answered , he saith , that this Body of Flesh and Bones , shall not arise again . Herein again he hath wronged my Answer ; sor it was not stated in these words , but in the very words of the Apostle Paul , 1 Cor. 15. 35 , 36 , 37 , 38. as in the Narrative is fully related ; for being aware of their carping , caveling , spirit , I kept close to the plain Words of Scripture in my positive answer , How be it when W. Kiffin , said , That the Seed , that 's sown , is this same Body of Flesh and Bones which shall arise , though otherwayes qualified , viz. more glorious , &c. This being upon my Question about the Seed , to which God gives a Body as it pleaseth him : I did deny that the terrestrial Body , or Body of Flesh , Blood and Bones , as dead and buried , is the Seed intended by the Apostle , to which God gives a Body , as it pleaseth him ; And that the very same Carnal Body , should arise again : I say , it hath not yet been proved to me ; nor am I satisfied therein , from any who have obtruded this Question and Controversie upon me . To which I now add , nor am I resolved by these men ; but the Question may be further examined hereafter . Again , after I am accused for leaving out of the Narrative the a●…oresaid Answer , viz. About this Body of Flesh and Bones , falsely obtruded upon me , the pretended Omission is supposed to be either from a bad Conscience , or a defective Memory , p. 54. wherein my own Conscience doth clear me ; and my Innocency concerning the first , and Experience of the latter is better known and judged of in my self then by an envious and salse Accuser , that neither knows my Conscience , nor Capacity . And yet after thus doubtfully he hath accused me , either for an evil Conscience or bad Memory , he presently saith , hence I conceive it to be more proper for him to be angry with himself , for being deceitful , then sor another to tell him that he is so , p. 35. See here what a positive Judge he makes himself over my Conscience , when as before he is so doubtful and wavering in his Charge . For suppose any Omission through defect of Memory ; Is this sufficient ground to conclude a man deceitful ? Mark the Inconsistency of this mans Work of Envy against me : And I do not only reflect his false ill Language upon him ; but also testifie against his Malice and slandering of me , ( as he doth divers others ) And particularly his Outrage against G. F. most malitiously and falsly reproaching him as a Blasphemer and Deceiver ; and for instance tels us , he has been publickly detected , as namely by a Book called , The Spirit of the Quakers tryed , p. 55. Concerning which I would have the Reader to take notice , that the Book he here cryes up , is a Socinian Book , wherein the Divinity of Christ is denyed ; and that G. F. is chiefly opposed sor asserting the Divinity of Christ , and particularly , for his confessing , that Christ was in being , and in Glory with the Father before the World began . See here , from hence it is observable , this Adversary of ours makes little Conscience , whom he takes part with , so he finds them to be Enemies to us . He now questions whether to attain to Perfection , be the Priviledg of any on this side Death , p. 55. When before he hath opposed its being attainable here , and put it off till he be in Heaven , p. 50. But now he is uncertain whether Perfection be attained by any on this side Death . He should have appeared thus ingenious at first ; and not positively opposed that which afterwards he questions ; But this is according to the Tenour of his uncertain confused Work. Lux Exorta Est : OR THE LIGHT SPRUNG UP IN THE Despised Quaker , With Evident Testimony against the Darkness and Prejudice of the Old Anabaptist IN ANSWER To Henry Grigg's Book , stiled , Light from the Sun of Righteousness , ( but proved an Effect of Smoke and Darkness , proceeding from the Pit of Enmity and Confusion . ) Unnaturally published against his own Natural Sister in Barbadoes , chiefly , because of her owning the People of God called Quakers , and their PRINCIPLE , Which is herein further Vindicated ; AND His Erronious Doctrines are Examined His Self-Contradictions are Compared His Impertinent Exceptions are Overturned By G. W. — Neither do the Aged understand Judgment . Night is come upon you , and the Day is become Dark over you . Printed in the Year , 1973. THE CONTENTS . About 1. The Light within . 2. Justification , &c. 3. The Lord's Supper . 4. Baptism . 5. The Anointed . 6. Jesus and his Body , Man and the Body of Man , &c. 7. The Resurrection . 8. The Light , the Sufferings and Work of Christ. 9. The Baptists Ordinances Shadows , &c. 10. Knowing Christ , and his Coming , Reign , and Deity . 11. Their Erroneous and Groundless Distinction between the Light of God and the Light of Christ. 12. Turning to the Light within . 13. Christ as at the Right hand of Power . 14. Perfection . 15. The Light within distinguished from an Historical Knowledge . 16. The Baptist's unlearned Question . TO THE READER . Serious Reader , THe implacable Enmity of divers Baptist Teachers against us , our present Liberty and Prosperity is very obvious , by their several perverse confused Pamphlets ; although the sad Experience and Fruitlesness of Coertion has not been shewn by their Valour : They have Cause rather to be abased and humbled for their timerous obscuring themselves ( many of them ) in the late stormy times , then now either to boast , or thus come croaking out in warm Weather , with Blasphemy and Revilings against the Light of Truth , or us its Children : As also for their many Divisions among themselves , contrary to this Man's pretended Order and Communion of him and his Brethren of their baptized Churches , as in pag. 53. being divided about Principles and Doctrines ; as some of their Leaders and Chieftains preaching up a personal Election ; others general Redemption ; some for Christ's dying for all ; others for his dying but for a few ; some for the Jews Seventh-Day Sabboth , others opposing it ; some holding the Souls mortality with the Body , others the Immortality : They should have been reconciled among themselves , before they had thus appeared in Print against us called Quakers ; for as yet we have no consistent matter from them to deal withall . Lux Exorta Est : OR THE LIGHT SPRUNG UP IN THE Despised Quaker , With Evident Testimony against the Darkness and Prejudice of the Old Anabaptist I. Concerning the Light within . THe Light or Life of the Eternal Word , which is the Light of men , Joh. 1. 4. is spiritual and divine , as is that Word ; and therefore able to direct man his Way out of Sin , and to give him Power against it ; what Cruelty and Partiallity doth he therefore ( like the partialminded Electioners ) reflect upon God in saying , that this Light or Illumination of the Eternal Word , leaves man like the Priest and Levite in his Blood and Wounds ? and yet how manifestly is this contradicted in his granting , That by this Light Mankind may come to understand there is a God , and also their Duty as he is their Creator ? Now this their Duty is both truely to love , obey and sear him ; as also the man grants , the Light to convince them of Sins , and teach them to do unto all men , as themselves would be done unto ; and that if the Heathens do follow the Light ( they are enlightened withal by the glorious Creator ) they would shine forth in the Principles of Morality and just Living , p. 9. Now then it appears that this Light in all men , can both teach them their Duty to God and one another ; so then it would teach them both to begodly and just : Then the Question is , whether all that are so taught , and are such , be they called Heathens , or others , be not in Reality Christians ? Can a man be godly and not a Christian ? Surely if the Heathens do mind and follow so much Light as God has given them , they shall be saved ; for is there any more required then what is given ? Or doth God condemn Men for not improving more then he gives them ? How can they then be inexcusable , or left without Excuse before him ? Observe again , that this Opposer is not only cruel , in leaving men in their Blood and Wounds , though they follow so much Light as is given them ; but he is greatly confounded about the Light in all men ; one while calling it , The Substance of the Law of the first Covenant , p. 11. another while saith , That Law was a more glorious Ministration , and did convince of Sin more clearly then this Light , p. 10. ( whereas the inward Convincement or Conviction does not arise from the Law , meerly as written without ; but from the Law or Light as received from God in the Heart ) another while he calls it , the Spirit that God has formed in man , Zach. 12. 1. The Candle of the Lord , p. 9. Let the ingenuous Reader judge how this man is shattered in these his Contradictions , Inconsistencies and Variations , and how plainly he hath broke the Neck of his own Cause in confessing that the Lord Jesus , as the eternal Word , enlightneth all men ; for Jesus Christ and his Light as the eternal Word , is the divine and highest Light. II. Concerning Redemption Justification , &c. HE is very inconsistent in his Saying that , Redemption and Justification have been fully compleated and finisht by our Lord Jesus for ●…s once for all , and that the Debt is paid , and Satisfaction made , p. 14. while yet he grants that Ignorance and Unbelief as Chains and Fetters bind many in Satan's Kingdom , p. 14. for did you ever know of any so fully in a redeemed and justified Estate , while so actually under Satan's Chains and Fetters in his Kingdom ? Or that any should be thus detained in Prison , so long after the Debt is paid , and Satisfaction made , as he imagines ? But in this Notion of Satisfaction , he appears very short and shallow , though it be not a Scripture Phrase , as T. Danson grants , Synops. p. 19. and though it depends but upon some Notions of Law , as Dr. Owen saith , Declar. p. 150. Now that all mens Debt should be so strictly payed , or such a severe Satisfaction made to vindicate Justice by Christ in their Stead ( which God never imposed upon the Son of his Love ) and that for Sins past , present and to come ( as some say ) how inconsistent is it ? Besides the gross Liberty this gives to Sin ; how agrees it with his teaching them to pray , Forgive us our Debts ? Math. 6. 12. for what needed that if they be all fo strictly paid in their Stead ? Howbeit that Christ in another or more acceptable Sence , was a most satisfactory Offering and Sacrifice for Man-kind , for a sweet smelling Savour to God , Ephes. 5. 2. this we confess and own ; and that he tasted Death not only for some , but for every Man , and is a Propitiation for the Sins of the whole World. And that Men are not justified , nor all their Debt payed in their Stead , while they are actually in Chains in Satan's Kingdom ; see this Man's Concession to his own Confutation , touching the Power of true Conversion that is taught by Christ and his Ministers , viz. That a man must repent , that true Repentance is a through Change of the mind , and that it consists in ( 1 ) A clear Sight and Sence of Sin ( 2 ) Godly Sorrow in the Sence and Burthen of it ( 3 ) In utter Abhorrence and forsaking of it : And also — Faith is required and must be wrought with Power in the Hearts of the Penitent , &c. p. 15. 16. Mark then , here is some Debt for men to pay through the Help of Christ's Power and Work within ; but to go round again , he is sliting that inherent Holiness which is wrought within , and accusing his Sister for not having a deep dependency on that Sacrifice of Christ's Crucified Body without , p. 14. The Truth on 't is , she or they that believe Christ to be risen , and know his Power in their Hearts may think it improper to have their Dependancy on that his Body , as crucified without , but rather on him that lives for ever , as knowing the blessed Effects of his Sacrifice , to wit , the Relief and Redemption which his Flesh and Blood affords . His saying , The Debt is paid , and yet fearing his Sister 's remaining in Prison and Darkness , notwithstanding her Teacher near , p. 14. proves no more against the Light , the inward Teacher , then against Christ's Sufferings : She may as well say , Brother for all thy Dependance upon the crucified Body without thee , I fear thou art yet dead in thy Sins and in gross Darkness , and thou takest not the Course to convince me , nor at all to draw my Heart towards thee and thy Brethren , by such sad and wicked Work as thou makest against the Light. Concerning his Water-Baptism , it s not Reasonable in him , either to impose it , or judge us Transgressors in not submitting unto it , p. 18 , 27. until he prove his Call , or himself or any of his Brethren commissionated from Heaven , as John was , to administer it ; for we do not own it to be Christ's Baptism , and till they prove themselves so called , they should let us alone without it , we being content with the one Baptism of the Spirit . III. Of the Lord's Supper . THe drinking of the Fruit of the Vine in the Fathers Kingdom , and the eating of the Living Bread which comes down from Heaven , Joh. Chap. 6. Luk. 22. 18 , 30. Mat. 26. 29. We are come to witness and so to partake of the heavenly Passover , and the Communion of the Body and Blood of Christ , which wise men can judge of , 1 Cor. 10. 15 , 16. And the Power and Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ we have been Eye Witnesses of ; so as we cannot dote about Signs and Shadows , as you carnal Professors do , whose pretended Lords Supper is but Bread and Wine , and no more then a Sign , Type or Shadow , which the clear Light of the Gospel and its Dispensation is beyond ; and in it there 's no need of those Shadows for a sacred Memorial of Christ's Death ; for the supposed Use and End thereof is better supplyed by the divine Light and Spirit of the everlasting Gospel , which hath not only begotten in us a living Memorial and Sence of the Death of Christ , and blessed Effects thereof ; but hath also brought us to know the Power of his Resurrection , and our being risen with him ; so as we are not only dead with him from the Rudiment of the World , and from touching , tasting and handling those things that perish with the using after the Commands and Doctrines of Men , but also being risen with Christ , we are come to set our Affections on things above . Where are those his Words written in Scripture , viz. That Bread and Wine remain in full Force until Christ's second coming in Person , p. 19. where doth the Scriptures call his second Appearance , a coming in Person ? Which was a coming to Salvation , Hebr. 9. 28. but this man saith , he is not so come the second Time , which doth both conclude that all the primitive Believers or Christians , who so look●… for his second coming , both fell short of Salvation , and mist and were dis-appointed of their Hope and Expectation , which is a sad Mistake . His saying , He dare not be wise above what is written , p. 29. contradicts his asserting that which derogates from what 's written , viz. That Christ's second coming to Salvation is in Person , or a personal Coming , whereas ( nigh his Departure ) he said , I am no more in the World , Joh. 17. 11. and yet a little while and the World seeth me no more , but ye see me , Ch. 14. 19. his spiritual Appearance was to be in the World , and he universally to be seen in Judgment . As for that which Paul received of the Lord , 1 Cor. 11. 23. proves not that he received outward Bread and Wine of the Lord , to deliver to them , till Christ's supposed coming in Person again ; but he received of the Lord , not only the Relation how Christ took Bread and the Cup , &c. And so of the Administration of the Sign or Shadow ; but the Communication of the Mystery , viz. the Body and Blood of Christ : See 1 Cor. 10. And this was that Bread and that Cup spoken of 1 Cor. 11. 28. And he further shews what he received , and what he delivered concerning Christ and his comings , 1 Cor. 15. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. 2 Cor. 13. 5. As for the Corinthians , many of them were carnal , and their minds too much in outward Things and Shadows , and some lyable to run into Idolatry : And the Apostle in some things condiscended to them as Weaklings below the spiritual and manly Understandings ; wherefore their Practice and Example is not in every thing binding to spiritual men . IV. Of Baptism . H.G. FRom Math. 28. 19 , 20. The Baptism here spoken of is that of Water , p. 23. to baptize with the holy Spirit , is the alone Work of Jesus Christ ; and it never was in the Power of any Apostle or Disciple to do it . p. 24. Answ. This man contrary to his Pretence , here makes himself wise above what is written , in adding to the Command , That it was the Baptism of Water , which is not mentioned in the Command ; but rather it appears to be a spiritual Baptism , which the Disciples were impoured to administer , in that they were to teach , baptizing them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , into the Name , &c. which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 imports the Authority and Power of Christ , and sometimes Christ himself , and sometimes Reverence and Worship ; see T. C's Lexicon : The man is very rash in his concluding , that it was never in the Power of any Apostle to baptize with the holy Spirit : I ask him if the true Ministers were not endued with Power from on high , to turn and convert People from Darkness to Light , and from Satan's Power unto God : And if so , what 's this short of the Spirit 's Baptism , I pray . His meaning from Paul's not being sent by Christ to baptize , but to preach the Gospel , 1 Cor. 1. is , that he gives us to understand , that to baptize was not the alone or chief Business he was sent to do , p. 27. [ alone or chief Business ] is his own Addition to Paul's Words ; what needed he give them to understand , that to baptize was not his alone Business , while they knew he was more a Preacher . 'T is not to be supposed , that the Corinthians should think that Paul was to do nothing else , but baptize or plunge them in Water ; but he himself gives it as the chief Reason why he baptized none but those few mentioned ; namely , for Christ ( saith he ) sent me not to baptize , but to preach the Gospel : So he did not thank God for neglecting part of his Commission , in baptizing so few , but partly to prevent their wrong Use thereof , and chiefly because his Commission did not extend to Water-Baptism . And as to his Allegation , to prove that the Word not is not alwayes used as an absolute Negative , p. 27. he cites , Joh. 6. 27. Labour not for the Meat that perisheth , but for the Meat which endureth , &c. If the Occasion of these Words be minded , not will prove an absolute Negative in this Place ; Jesus speaking to them that sought after him , because they did eat of the Loaves , ver . 20. and were filled , for which end they ought not to have sought after him . And admitting his Instance in Adam , that he was not deceived , namely , that he was not first deceived , taking in the Word [ first ] from the Verse before ; this is altogether impertinent unto his Purpose , about Paul's not being sent to baptize , there being no such Discovery , that Paul was sent at all to baptize , as there was of Adam's Transgression , but the contrary , in that Paul expresly said , Christ fent me not to baptize , but to preach the Gospel . V. Of the Anionted TO his saying the Word Christ signifies one Anointed , accounting it absurd to say , the Spirit or Anointing is Christ , p. 37. I answer , are not the Father , the Spirit and the Word one ? Christ as the Son of God is God's anointed : And is it not granted that he was the Son of God by eternal Generation ? And fo was ( before he took upon him that Body prepared for him ) called the Lord 's anointed , Psal. 2. 2. which Word Anointed , sometimes relates to his being set up ; or exalted as King ; yet have I set ( or anointed , Hebr. ) my King upon Sion , the Hill of my Holiness , ver . 6. As also to his being endued or anointed with Power from on high , which Power is that divine Unction , and in that Christ is called the Power of God , and the Wisdom of God , 1 Cor. 1. 24 He may as properly be called , the Anointing , as where the Spirit of the Lord is , there is Liberty , now the Lord is that Spirit ; this Anointing is not an outward Unction , nor outwardly received upon the Flesh or Body ; but being a divine Unction of Glory and Power from above , it s inwardly and spiritually received by an immortal Seed and Birth born from above , as that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit . As for his Term , Humane Nature , and Glorious Unity between the divine and human Nature , p. 36. he talks he knows not what , besides Scripture-Language : the Word human is not applicable to Christ in Glory by the Scriptures , but originally relates to the Earth , and so to the Body of man as coming thence . But Jesus Christ was the Anointed , as he was the Son from the Father's Substance ( which he was before he came in the Flesh , or took upon him that Body that was prepared for him ) and the Anointed and Saviour by the divine Power given him , when in that Body upon Earth ; though more highly exalted or anointed , as ascended far above all Heavens , and exalted in the Father's Glory ; the Anointed and Saviour also , as revealed and formed in the Saints , Gal. 4. 19. the Anointed as set up from Everlasting ; the Anointed both in Sufferings and in Glory ; the Anointed both as he came in Flesh , and as coming and revealed in the Spirit in his People ; and his Name by which Life and Salvation comes , and is given , is his divine Nature and Power , to which his Name relates that is above every other Name . One thing this man H. G. and his Brethren stumble at , and at which his Soul is wounded ( as he saith ) p. 30. is , that Christ was never seen with an outward ( or rather carnal Eye ) which H. W. is accused of , sor saying , The Eternal Son of God was never seen with any Carnal Eye ; to which I say , they should have been so ingenuous , as to have considered the Intent of these Words , and more candidly to have construed them thus , Christ as the eternal Word , the Lord from Heaven , the only begotten of the Father in his spiritual Discovery , as the Image of the invisible God and Brightness of his Glory cannot be seen with a carnal Eye , Flesh and Blood hath not so revealed him ; the saving Light of Christ never was nor can be reached with the carnal Eye ; he that seeth the Son and believeth on him hath everlasting Life , Joh. 6. 40. and as saith the Son of God , he that seeth me seeth my Father also , Joh. 12. 45. and 14. 9. but none can see the Father with a carnal Eye , therefore none could ever see the eternal Son with their carnal Eyes in this Sence of seeing , which extends to true Knowing , Joh. 8. 19. and 14. 7. though many did see the Body or Person of Christ in the Dayes of his Flesh , wherein he was crucified and put to Death ; the Jews ●…nd Persecutors saw him in that Sence with their outward Eyes , when they did neither truely see nor know him to their Salvation , it being the Spirit that quickneth , and such a Sight of Christ as that of his Body or outward man , no reasonable man can be so absurd as to say , it was not obvious to the Bodily Eyes , and as absurd for any to imagine , that any of us should intend otherwise . Now these Baptists Faith concerning the Son of God , according to their carnal Discourse of him , may be modelized into this or the like Argument , viz. If Jesus Christ , the Son of God be also the Son of man glorified on the right Hand of God in Heaven , then he consists of human Body of Flesh and Bones , as some say ; or of a body of Flesh , Blood and Bones , as others say . But he is the Son of man glorified , &c. Ergo he consists of a human Body , either of Flesh and Bone , or of Flesh Blood and Bones in Heaven . Ans. I deny their varied Consequence as inconsequent ; for Christ was called the Son of man in a higher Sence then this human , earthly or carnal Sence , which they represent him in , in that he himself said , no man hath ascended up to Heaven , but he that came down from Heaven , even the Son of man which is in Heaven , Joh. 3. 13. and what if you shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before ; it is the Spirit that quickneth , the Flesh perfitteth nothing , Joh. 6. 62 , 63. who will affim , that as he came down from Heaven , or as he was before in Heaven , he so consisted of a carnal human Body , either made up of Flesh and Bone , or of Flesh , Blood and Bone in their gross and carnal Sence ; John the Baptist had not such mean Thoughts of Christ , as these carnal Baptists have ; for John said , he that cometh from above is above all , he that is of the Earth is earthly and speaketh of the Earth , he that cometh from Heaven is above all , John 3. 31. and the Flesh of the Son of man , which he gave for the Life of the World is that Bread which came down from Heaven , Joh. 6. 50 , 51. Except ye eat the Flesh of the Son of Man , and drink his Blood ye have no Life in you , ver . 53. Yet that the Name Son of Man was applyed to him as a Sufferer , and as he said , so shall the Son of man be three Dayes and three Nights in the Heart of the Earth , Math. 12. 40. I deny not ; but this doth not limit him from being called the Son of Man in a higher State , also each of God's Prophets might be called ( as divers were ) a Son of Man ; but Christ the great Prophet , the Son of Man , the Apostle distinguisheth between the first man and the second man thus , The first man is of the Earth earthly ( or human ) the second man is the Lord from Heaven , 1 Cor. 15. 47. therefore the second man is not human in their Sence , nor consisting of a human or earthly Body as the first man , and Ephes. 4. 9 , 10. now that he ascended , what is it , but that he also descended first into the lower Parts of the Earth , he that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens , that he might fill all things , and Phil. 3. 21 , who shall change the Body of our Lowness , that it may be fashoned like unto his glorious Body , &c. Now if it should be read according to these Baptists Sence , it must be , who shall change our vile Bodies , that they may be fashoned like unto his human Body , as if they were not such already , and how disproportionable is it to say , Christ consists of a human Body of flesh , blood and bones in Heaven ; but the Saints must have a spiritual glorious Body in the State of Glory hereafter ; yet to prevent these mens Scruples concerning our owning the man Christ , or the Son of man in Glory ; I tell them seriously that I do confess both to his miraculous Conception by the Power of the holy Spirit overshadowing the Virgin Mary , and to his being born of her according to the Flesh , and so that he took upon him a real Body ( and not a fantastical ) and that he was real Man , come of the Seed of Abraham , and that he in the Dayes of his Flesh preached Righteousness , wrought Miracles , was crucified and put to Death by wicked Hands , that he was buried and rose again the third Day according to the Scriptures ; and after he rose , he appeared diversly , or in divers Forms and Manners he really appeared to many Brethren , 1 Corinth . 15. and afterwards ascended into Glory , being translated according to the Wisdom and Power of the Heavenly Father , and is glorified with the same Glory which he had with the Father before the World began , being ascended far above all Heavens , that he might fill all things , whose Glory is Incomprehensible , and beyond the Apprehension of Human Capacities . VI. Of Jesus and his Body ; of Man and the Body of Man. WHereas H. G. cavils at my speaking distinctly of the Body of Jesus , in that Joseph of Arimathea begg'd the Body of Jesus , and to confute me herein , he instanceth that of the body of Saul , and saith , that the Case is the same , and the body of Moses which the Devil disputed about , p. 39 , 40 , 41. but in this I cannot see any valid Matter to his purpose , nor wherein he can intend it , unless he believes that the Soul or spiritual Existence of man dyes with the body ; and the Devil did appear wiser then he , concerning this distinction , in that his disputing about the body of Moses does imply a distinction between Moses ( as to his immortal Existence ) and the body of Moses ; and that he did not confound them as this man doth , who concludes Jesus Christ to consist of a human Body of Flesh and Bone , which the original Being of no man properly consists of , though to prevent Cavils and for 〈◊〉 sake I 'll grant him thus much , that the Name Jesus Christ is indifferently and mutually applyed both to his spiritual being , and to the body he took upon him , and that distinctly in Scripture , although the Names Messiah , Jesus Christ , the Anointed , the Image and Glory of the invisible God , the Word , the Light , the Life , &c. do more eminently , and more originally belong to him , as he was before he took that body upon him , which he called this Temple , and it was called the body of Jesus . Whereas H. G. sayes , What a strange Epitath would this Man write upon a Tomb-stone , he cannot write , here lyes the Body of Thomas or William , &c. but rather thus , here lies the Thomas of Thomas , p. 41. Reply , This more properly falls upon himself in not admitting that distinction touching Jesus and the body of Jesns ; but their concluding and confining Jesus Christ , as to confist of the meer body of flesh and bone , and that he could not be Jesus Christ the Saviour before he took upon him that body ; by which this man cannot write , Here lies the body of Thomas or William , &c. ( which implies a belief of an Immortality of the man , as to his Spirituality ) but rather , here lies the whole man Thomas or William without admitting of any such Immortality ; and yet I will grant him as before , that the Word Man is indifferently applyed to either the spiritual Being or Body of man , as there is an inward man and an outward man , 2 Cor. 4. 16. And as God created man in his own Image ; and yet it s said , he formed man of the Dust of the Earth , Gen. 1. 27. and Chap. 2. 7. and it s said , That the rich Man dyed and was buried ( which was his Body ) and in Hell he lift up his Eyes , &c. ( which could not be that Part which dyed and was buried , but the immortal part or Soul ) Luke 16. 22. 23. yet the Word Man , most properly and originally ( as God created Man in his own Image ) belongs to his spiritual Existence or Being ; for the Earthly Body was not the Image of God. But farther , let the Reader observe how evidently H. G. has contradicted his foregoing Stuff , for a human Christ consisting of a Body of meer Flesh and Bone , against my distinction ( concerning Jesus and his Body that was put to Death and buried , which was also raised ) as where he speaks distinctly of Jesus and his Body , p. 33. and confesseth that Christ came in the Flesh , p. 36. that he hath an outward glorisied Existence — that he hath a body , p. 46 , 47. Christ's crucified Body , p. 50. the Body that was prepared for him , p. 79. He did assume our Nature , p. 80. He had the very Form , Shape and Fashion of a Man , p. 81. And what He or Him was this he speaks of ? Was it not Christ , the Son of God , the Anointed . And to his arguing , That if Jesus Christ continues a man for ever , then he hath a Body of Flesh and Bone forever : This doth not follow , but is falsly deduced as before is proved , that Man both did and doth exist when he hath not such a carnal body as he intends ; although I do own Christ to be the heavenly and spiritual Man glorified , and ( in a more sublime and heavenly Sence ) his flesh and bone , of which the Saints are Members , and that the true Christ is not without Blood to communicate , which the Spiritual Communicants drink of . H. G. also further adds , Unless it can be proved , that Man can exist and have a Being without Flesh and Bone , which I suppose , all will conclude is impossible , p. 47. To which I say , This is not only confuted by what I have said before , but also by himself , where he confesseth the Coming of the Spirit into his Heart , for the binding of the Strong Man Satan , p. 16. here he hath found out a Man , and that a strong one to , too wit , Satan , whom I suppose he deems not a man made up ( or consisting ) of flesh and bones , though he be called the strong Man ; but the Heavenly and Spiritual Man Christ Jesus is stronger then he . VII . Of the Resurrection . AS for his insinuating against us , as denying the Resurrection of the Dead , or of the Body , p. 41 , 42 , 43. This Accusation is not only in general Terms , but also it is notoriously false , as may be evinced , not only in many of our Books and Writings , but also by our deep Sufferings for Christ ; so that if in this Life we had Hope only , we were of all men most miserable : It s true , there hath been and is a Controversie between us and many of the Baptists , and some others about that , or the like unlearn'd Question , which they have been busie to obtrude upon us , viz. How are the dead raised , and with what Body ? Which we have answered , as the Apostle did such , Thou Fool , that which thou sowest is not quickned except it dye , and thou sowest not that body that shall be , but bare grain , it may chance of Wheat , &c. but God giveth it a body as it pleaseth him , and every Seed his own body , or its proper body , 1 Cor. 15. 35 , 36 , 37 , 38. &c. But to prove the arising of the same Bodies buried in the Graves , he perverts and miscites Phil. 3. 21. thus , He will change our vile bodies , and fashion them like unto his glorious body ; whereas that Phil. 3. 21. is in the singular , vile Body , or rather , he shall change the body of our Lowness , or our suffering body , that it may be ●…ashoned like unto his glorious body ; now the body of their Lowness or Humility , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comprehended the whole Suffering Estate of the Church : And I do confess that the Resurrection , Change and Translation or Transfiguration ( as some renders it ) of the Just or Righteous , extends not only to a Resurrection from Sin , Corruption and Weakness , but to an arising out of a Suffering State into Glory : And as God knows how to deliver and raise up the Righteous , out of Temptations , Tryals and Sufferings ; so he knows how to reserve the Unjust unto Punishment , and unto the day of Destruction ; for both shall rise to their several Ends and Rewards ; yea , the Sea , Death , Hell and the Grave shall deliver up their dead to be judged , &c. and he giveth to every Seed his own proper body , as he pleaseth ; and we know , that if our earthly house of this Tabernacle be destroyed , we have a building given of God , that is , a House not made with Hands , but eternal in the Heavens : Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , 1 Cor. 15. 50. H. G. sayes , By Flesh and Blood the Apostle doth intend Corruption , p. 44. whereas the Apostle spake of them distinctly , viz. flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , neither doth Corruption inherit Incorruption ; to say that by flesh and blood he doth intend Corruption is no Answer to their Question , with what body are the Dead raised , &c. Which though reproved as foolish , yet not so foolish as to ask whether Corruption be raised ? And more absurd it is to imply , that by flesh and blood he doth not intend Body , but only Corruption . Again H. G. to prove the rising of the same Bodies cites Job 19. 25. In my Flesh shall I see God , whom I shall see for my self , and mine Eyes shall behold , &c. p. 44 , 45. By this his Instance it appears what gross Apprehensions he hath of God , while he thinks to see him with his bodily or carnal Eyes , which no Being nor Thing is visible or obvious unto , but what is of an outward or corporeal Substance or formal limitted matter , which an infinite eternal Spirit is not ? for God who is that Spirit is invisible ; therefore Jeb did not speak of his bodily Eyes , but of his spiritual , who afterwards said unto the Lord , I have heard of thee by the hearing of the Ear , but now mine Eye seeth thee , Jo. 42. 5. which cannot be understood of his seeing him with his bodily Eye ; H. G. pretends to know the State or manner of the Saints being in Glory , telling us that all deformity shall be done away , p. 44. and that these vile Bodies shall be fashoned like unto Christ's glorious Body : How then shall they be these very same earthly and numerical bodies ? many whereof are not only deformed , but greatly defective , both as to Infants and Aged that dye ; as also his confessing to 2 Cor. 5. 1 , 2. doth appear a Contradiction plain enough to himself , if righly considered ; its probable this Man has as strange Conceits about the Resurrection , as Tho. Vincent in his Book of the Coming of Christ to Judgment and the Resurrection ; but I cannot look upon either him or the Baptists to be such divine Philosophers , as either to know or define the manner of the Saints Existance or Beings in Heaven and Glory ; but rather that they are Imaginary and Intruders therein , though it would better become them to acquiese with God s Will and Pleasure concerning such Mysteries as are beyond their Capacities ; I expect some of them in their busie minds , will give me farther Occasion to speak to this weighty Point of the Resurrection , though it be a matter I never desired to make publick Controversie of , it being beyond human Capacities . VIII . Of the Word , the Light , the Sufferings of Christ and his Work within . H.G. THere is a great difference between the Essence & Body of the Sun and its Beams or Rayes : for though the Sun by its Rayes doth give Light to all , yet is not the Essence or Body of the Sun in them ; so in like manner , though the Word be the true Light which lighteth every man , yet is he not essentially in their Hearts , p. 48. 49. Answ. He hath strain'd his Simile too sar , and thereby hath denyed the Omni-presence and Infiniteness of God , whose Presence filleth Heaven and Earth ; the Sun and its Rays and Beams are finite and limitable ; so and in like manner is not God and his Illumination , and thus to limit and circumscribe God and his Light or Shining to be so , and in like manner as the Sun and its Beams , doth mani●…est such gross Apprehensions of God , as he did before , in expecting to see him with bodily Eyes : And this relates to the old Heresie of the Anthropomorphites or Monks in the desarts of Aegypt , as also to that of the present Mugletonians , who imagine God to be a personal or bodily Existence circumscribed as to place , denying him to be an infinite Spirit ; yet thus far I will admit of his Simile , by a Reason of the contrary , that as the natural created Sun immediately sends forth its Beams or Rayes which are natural , and do influence the Earth with the Vertue of the Sun ; so the eternal increated Spi●…itor Word doth shine and shew forth its own immediate , increated divine Light and Vertue in the Hearts and Souls of Man-kind ; as the Sun is natural and created , so is its Light or Shining ; and as God the eternal Word is increated and super-natural , so is his immediate Shining or Light in the Hearts and Souls of Man-kind ; and as a man's Eye is directly set towards the Sun , in the least Beam thereof , shining through any Crevis into any Dungeon Cell or other oscure place , it sees directly to the Sun it self ; so the Eye of the Soul being directe dtowards God by the least Appearance of his divine and immediate Shining or Illumination , therein it hath a Sight of God , and the Soul thereby comes to seel of his Vertue and Power in waiting upon him . And for this man to conclude , that this Light of the eternal Word cannot teach and reveal unto man the Lord Jesus Christ , p. 50. is to deny Jesus Christ to be the Word , or that true Light that enlightneth every Man , whereas his Illumination directs man immediately to himself as its eyed and minded . As also he is as narrow , shallow and partial , in concluding the Light will not reveal unto man his Saviour without the Help of the Scriptures p. 50. this is a strange undervaluing of the Light of Christ ; what then did the Scriptures proceed from ? Was it not the Light ? And what shall become of all those Nations and People that have not the Scriptures , if this be true ? It is none of our Assertion , that Christ in his Death and Sufferings , was but only a Pattern or Example of that which must be wrought over again in us ; for though we own him to have left an Example , yet he was more then an Example , and he did not only end the Types , but was a Sacrifice and Offering for Man-kind , and opened the new and living Way , giving Testimony of God's free Love towards all , and making Way for the enforcing of the new Testament or Covenant of Life : But yet that either all or any men are cleansed , or justified , or saved meerly by the outward Sufferings , Crucifixion , Death or Blood shed of Christ , the Scripture proves not ( but by Christ himself , and his Blood , Life , Spirit and Power ) nor yet that men are acquitted or saved by their outward Application thereof : And this man to his own Confutation confesseth to the Power of Christ s Spirit being risen in us , for our Sanctification and Renovation , as well as Christ was raised from the dead for our Justification , p. 54. then all is not fully doneby his Death without them , but both the End and Mystery of the Cross , Sufferings and Death of Christ without , 〈◊〉 be known and fulfilled within , see Philip. 3. 10. although this man seems not willing to hear of Christ's being a Pattern or Example of that which must be wrought over again in us , p. 50 yet in Contradiction to this he saith , The Lord Jesus Christ hath wrought Red●…mption and Salvation for me , and revealed this by his Word and Spirit , and 〈◊〉 it in me , p. 52. it s well that in any Measure he is made to grant to this inward Work of Christ. IX . Further about their Ordinances . His pleading for their shadowy and carnal Ordinances to continue under this Notion , viz. Under his Shadow I have with the Spouse sat down , and his Fruit is and hath been sweet unto my t●…ste , p. 53. This is a very impertinent Instance , and altogether improper , to reckon Bread , Wine and Water-Baptisin that Shadow of the Souls Beloved , to wit , Christ , that the Spouse sat under , seeing the Lord himsel●… saith , I will be a Shadow from the Heat , and a Refuge from the Storm : And we are so far from believing these his carnal Ordinances to be the direct Shadow of the Souls Beloved in that neer Sence , that we look upon him , he is yet to prove them Appointments , Institutions and Ordinances of Christ , or of Necessity to continue in the Church , notwithstanding his spiritual Coming and Revelation , which he hath not , much less that they are spiritual or of a Spiritualness , as he saith , p. 59. and 60. which he hath manifestly contradicted , in granting , They are but the Sign , the Shadow , the Shell , and Christ the Substance p. 53 , 54. For my part , I don't look upon either John's Baptism , or the Supper of Christ and his Disciples ( at which they had the Passover ) to be Institutions and Ordinances originally appointed by Christ , or enjoyned to all that should succeed in the Gospel and true Church ; but rather , though they were not directly enjoyned by the Law of Moses , as we say , modo & forma ; yet that they did more naturally relate to that former dispensation of Shadows , then to that of the Gospel and new Covenant ; and that John's Baptism was rather for a Consummation of the Jews divers Sprinklings and Washings under the Law , comprehending them in order to end them , and Christ's eating of the Passover and drinking with his Disciples , Luke 32. to be as a Consummation of the Jews Feasts under the Law , viz. that of the Passover and others , according to the Relation given at large concerning the Ecclesiastical Rites of the ancien●… Hebrews , by T. Goodwin in his Antiquities of the ●…ews , called , Moses and Aaron , p. 86 , 87 , 88 , 89 , 90 , 91. and 〈◊〉 , and Christ saying , As often as you do this , is not a ●…ommand , and This do in Remembrance of me , and 〈◊〉 the Lord's Death till he come , does limit a time for its Discontinuance ; for till he come must either respect his next Coming , or render not only his coming after he was risen , but his spiritual Coming and Revelation in his Saints no Comings , which were absurd and Auti-Christian , and there was a time to shew forth his Life as well as his Death . Hi●… saying , The Sign and thing signified God hath joyned together , p. 54. is again contradicted by his granting a Personmay find a Shell and have no Kernel in it , p. 54. To which I add , That God hath so joyned the Sign or Shadow and the Substance together , as so to continue , I deny , or that the Scripture any where so saith ; but as for these Baptists Shells , Husks and Shadows they are both dry and empty , and the Lord is departed from them , so as neither Life nor Substance is to be found in them , but a dark Spirit of Enmity and Opposition against the true Power and Life is centered in them ; Yea , the same Spirit which walketh in dry Places : I wish they were truely sensible of it . X. Of knowing Christ and his Coming , Reign and Deity . UPon 2 Cor. 5. 16. Though I have known Christ after the Flesh , yet from henceforth know I him so no more . H. G's Exposition is , That the Word [ know ] here , doth hold forth to esteem , regard , allow or to approve by Way of Preference , p. 58. Now if we read his Exposition herein upon the Text , it runs thus , viz. Though I have known or esteemed , regarded or approved Christ after the Flesh by Way of Preference , yet from henceforth do I esteem regard or approve of him so no more ; and then how must I regard and prefer him , but after the Spirit and in his spiritual Manifestation , as I know him in me to be my Hope , Life and Stay : But how does this agree with his Discription of Jesus Christ ( as the alone Saviour ) * As consisting of a human Body of Flesh and Bone ( as before ) p. 31. and 55. and with his saying that the Spirit or blessed Comforter cannot be the Saviour and Mediator , p. 46. But this he hath also eminently Contradicted , in confessing that * The Power of Christ's Spirit risen in us , is for our Sanctification and Renovation , p. 54. To which I add , that the Apostle witnessed that the ingrafted Word is able to save your Souls , or the Word that is grafted in you ( as some have it ) Jam. 1. 21. and see 1 Pet. 1. 23. and the Spirit is Life , giveth Life , quickneth , sanctifieth , it self maketh Intercession : And if ye through the Spirit mortifie the Deeds of the Flesh ye shall live , Rom. 8. Therefore the Word and Spirit ( which are one ) do save the Obedient . Whereas H. G. saith , Some of those Cazers and Waiters ( viz. that look for Christ's personal Reign ) was Paul , Peter and John , yea , all the primitive Saints , though Christ was come in Spirit to them as gloriously , &c. p. 60. I deny that they were any such Gazers , after Christ's Ascension and glorious spiritual Appearance and Revelation in them ; he hath herein asperst Paul , Peter and John and all the primitive Saints with gazing for Christ's personal Reign , which he reckons his second Coming to Salvation ; wherein he hath not only rendred all the Saints and former Witnesses of Christ to be such uncertain Gazers abroad ; but their Hope , Expectation and Faith ineffectual and fruitless as to such a Coming , and they to be disappointed of Salvation ; for a personal Coming and Reign of Christ ( as this man speaks of ) they attained not in their Dayes , neither is it yet , nor are Baptists like to see such a personal Reign , though he has rendred all the primitive Saints Gazers and Waiters for it ; whereas Christ said unto his Disciples , Verily I say unto you , there be some standing here , which shall not taste of Death , till they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom , Math. 16. 28. or till they have seen the Kingdom of God come with Power , Mark 9. 1. As for H. G's human personal Christ , consisting ( or meerly made up ) of Flesh and Bone , finite , weak , subject to Passion as we are , who as such he deems the alone Saviour with his unscriptural Expressions he puts upon him , as outward Existence , personal Existence , personal Subsistence , human Nature , second Person of the Trinity , &c. p. 46. and 83. and 94. And yet in Contradiction he is made to confess him to be the most high God , p. 80. Jesus of Nazareth truely God , the most high God as is the Father , and of the same Substance and Essence , yet distinguished from the Father , as touching his personal Subsistence , p. 83. I cannot but look upon this Relation to be non-sensical and confusedly intermixt with those unscriptural Terms , of which let the ingenuous Reader judge , that can distinguish between the Body which Christ took upon him and the divine Being ; this Relation of his tends farther to stumble and keep distant both Jews and Others , thus to represent Jesus Christ as a meer Body , consisting of Flesh and Bone , human Nature , finite , weak , &c. and then saying , He is the most high God of the same Essence , &c. And his rendring him only a Saviour , after this his own imaginary , human or earthly manner , he hath sufficiently confuted by these Reasons , wherewith he proves Jesus Christ his Deity or Being God ( and as such the Saviour , orgiveth Power unto others to become the Sons of God. ) 1st . From his Name , the mighty God , the true God , the only wise God , God blessed for ever , Isa. 9. 6. 1 Joh. 5. 20. Jude 25. and Rom. 9. 5. 2ly , His making and creating the World , Joh. 1. 1 , 3. Col. 2. 16. Heb. 2. 10. 3ly , His upholding and preserving the whole Creation , Heb. 1. 3. Col. 1. 17. 4ly , His knowing all things , Joh. 12. 17. and 2. 24 , 25. Psa. 139. and 4. 10. Job 36. 4. and Ch. 38. 5ly , His searching the Heart , Jer. 17. Rev. 2. 23. 6ly , His being the fist and the last , Isa. 44. 6. and 48. 12. Rev. 2. 8. 17. 7ly , His having spiritual Worship or divine Adoration due to him , Mat. 8. 2. and 28. 17. Luke 24. 52. Joh. 8. 38. Heb. 1. 6. Phil. 2. 10. 8ly , His having Power to forgive or pardon Iniquity , Mat. Ch. 9. and Mark 2. 5. Luke 5. 21. 9ly . In that the Saints ought to pray to him , Act. 9. 14. Rom. 10. 9 , 10. 1 Cor. 1. 2. 10ly , His having Power to give the Holy Spirit and Saving Graces , Math. 3. 11. Mark. 1. 4. Ephes. 4. 8 , 9. 11ly , His being equal with God , Phil. 2. 6 , 7. Zach. 13. 7. 12ly , His having Power to lay down his Life and to raise it up again . Joh. 2. 19. and 10. 18. 13ly , His being the Object , Author and Finisher of the true Believers Faith , Joh. 14. 1. and 9. 35. Heb. 12. 2. 14ly , He who can by his own Name , proper Power and Authority , give Power unto others to become the Sons of God , must needs be God himself ; but that Christ doth and can do this is evident , Joh. 1. 11 , 12. He doth adopt , regenerate or make others the Children of God , by the effectual Working of his blessed Spirit in the Hearts , by which they are interested in all the Priviledges of the Covenant of Grace , which none can do save God alone , p. 91 , 92. Thus far H. G. to his own eminent Confutation and Contradiction , hath assented to Truth in Words ; and how Jesus Christ is the Object of Faith , and Giver of Power to men to become the Sons of God ; and how he makes them his Children by the effectual Workings of his blessed Spirit in their Hearts , even because he is God Eternal , in that none can do those but God alone , according to Isa. 43. 10 , 11 , 12. and 45. 14. and 49. 26. and 63. 〈◊〉 . Jer. 14. 8. Hos. 13. 4. 1 Tim. 1. 1. and 4. 10. Jude 25. But how doth H. G's Confession and these Scriptures agree with the Discription he gives of Jesus Christ as Saviour , and as the only true Christ , viz. That he consists of a Body of Flesh and Bone , human Nature , being finite , weak , subject to passion as we are , saith he , p. 94. Let the Reader judge how gross and confused he is in these matters , and whether the true Christ and Saviour doth either consist of an earthly Nature or finite being , or was subject to Passion as fallen men are ? The Truth of it is , this Man hath confest more to the Deity and divine Power of Christ , and so to save and beget men to himself , as God alone , more then most of the Baptists that I have met withall before ; for one of his Brethren , to wit , W. Burnet ( a Preacher ) saith , That Christ as he was the Word , which was God was not a Saviour , as he was God he could not save Man , in his Book stiled the Capital Principles , p. 35. which denyes the Omnipotency of God ; but this Baptist H. G. grants that it is the Power and Spirit of God himself , or God alone that doth regenerate and make men his Children ; whence it follows that then it was not meerly the outward Body of Jesus that was the Saviour , though he was a Saviour in that Body , but it was by the Divine Power or Holy Spirit of the Father in him . XI . His Erroneous Distinction about the Light. BUt whereas H. G. accounts the Light and Knowledge of God as Creator , that was given to the Gentiles , Rom. 1. 19. and Chap. 2. 14 , 15. But the Light of the Moon to guide their Paths , and so much inferior to that of a crucified Jesus , as that it leaves them utterly void of the saving Knowledge of the Gospel , and of a crucified Jesus , p. 68 , 69. Mark here , how he hath undervalued the Light and Knowledge of the glorious Creator whom before he has in Words exalted above all , in the Work of Regeneration , and Christ as man , but as finite weak , &c. But now alass ! with him the Light and Knowledge of the glorious Creator , is but the Light of the Moon in comparison of the Light and Knowledge of Christ as man , though in that Weakness as crucified ; how egregiously he is involved in gross Consusion and self-Contradiction in these things ; he that runs may read ; and no such distinction nor contrariety between the Light of God and the Light of his Son is owned in Scripture ; ●…or I and my Father are one saith Christ ; and the Father , Word and holy Spirit are one . And the same Life which was in him was the Light of Men , Joh. 1. 4. and this Life which in due time was manifested , was the same eternal Life which was with the Father , 1Joh . 1. 1. 2. which Light or Life they that obey a●…d follow , in its Appearance and Guidance , it brings them to a Fellowship with the Father , and with the Son ; and this is not the Light of the Moon , as our Opposer blindly and unscripturally terms it : But seeing he saith ; this Law or Light is given to guide their Paths , by which the Gentiles are taught their Duty to God in Morals . I ask him , whether will this Light guide their Paths , if not in the Way to Salvation ? And whether will they go , and to what End , if they obey and follow it ? Does not the Apostle for a Proof of a justified State , instance it in the Gentiles , shewing the Effects of the Law written in their Hearts ? Rom. 2. 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. And what Nature was that by which those Gentiles did those things contained in the Law ; surely it was not the corrupt Nature , for that is inconsistent , the Law being holy , just and good ; and though these Gentiles had not the Law in the Letter of it , as many now have not the litteral Discription or histotical Relation of Christ's outward Sufferings , must they therefore be damned to Hell ? What Cruelty were this , to condemn Nations for want of the Scriptures ? But as those Gentiles who had not the Law in the Letter , and yet had and obeyed it in the Spirit , were both therein a Law to themselves , and excused in the Sight of God , in the day when he judgeth the Secrets of Men by Jesus Christ according to the Gospel , Rom. 2. 16. So those Gentiles and Peoples who obey the Light and Life of the Son of God in them , though they have not the historical Knowledge and Profession of Christ as he was Man , and suffered Death in the Flesh , &c. Yet they are truely accepted of God , and more real Christians inwardly then many of you , that have the Scriptures , and an historical Faith and Profession of the Man Christ , and of Christianity outwardly ; for in all Nations , every one that fears God and worketh Righteousness is accepted of him . Depart from Evil , and do Good , and dwell for evermore . And this the Light of the Son of God implanted in the Hearts of all Nations teacheth ; and herein the Grace of God that bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all Men , Tit. 2. 11. But it is the Error and Mistake of these Men , to put their historical Notions and Profession of the Man Christ , for the Light of Christ in Man , whereas their Notions and Professions are neither any real Knowledge of the Man Christ , nor the Principle of his Light in Man ; for the one is traditional and acquired by Man , and so but dark ; the other is the immediate and divine unchangeable Gift of Christ in Man , which indeed is the Light of the Eternal Word , the glorious Creator ; but as these men's pretended Light and Knowledge of the man Christ , is what they get out of Scriptures ( with their own private Interpretations on them ) so they hereby render Christ and his Light , as limitted only to such Places and People as have the Scriptures , opposing his divine Omni-presence and denying him his Right , which is the Heathen for his Inheritance , and the uttermost Parts of the Earth for his Possession , Psa. 2. Now as for that Morality ( as he calls it ) which the Law of the first Covenant , and Light implanted in the Hea●…ts of all Man-kind teacheth , in the true Nature and Inten●… thereof , it falleth no more short of Christianity then Godliness doth ; for this Law and Light teacheth Man to love the Lord God with all his Heart and Soul , &c. and his Neighbour as himself ; this do ( saith Christ ) and thou shalt live , in answer to the Question , what shall I do to inherit Eternal Life ? Luke 10. 25 , 26 , 27 , 28. This is the highest Morality or Duty of Man-kind , even this Love to God and one another , which is the fulfilling of the Law : And this is both taught by the Light within , and Power given by the Grace of God to fulfil it , which the Law without in the Letter cannot do : Now if the Jews Way to inherit Eternal Life was ( through the Grace or Help of God ) to fulfil what was written ( as before ) then if a Heathen , that hath not this Law outwardly written , should ask the same Question , what shall I do to inherit Eternal Life ? He may truely be answered , Obey the Light or Law of thy Maker in thy Heart which tells thee , Thou must love and honour him above all , and do Injury or Wrong to no Man ; this do and thou shalt inherit eternal Life ; for this End the Grace of God is free for thee . XII . Our Doctrine for turning People to the Light within justified . H. G. NOne of the true Gospel-Preachers did ever teach such a Doctrine as this is which the Quakers preach , namely , bid People turn to the Light within , * p. 63. 64. H. G. Contra. That God who commanded Light to shine out of Darkness hath shined in our Hearts , 2 Cor. 4. ( Concession ) Who doth deny that Holy Men did endeavour to turn Men and Women from Darkness to the Light , to leave their Sins , to turn from all their wicked Abominations , and Unfruitful Works of Darkness to God and Christ ? p. 67. What may be known of God is manifest in Men , Rom. 1. pag. 68 , 69. Anim. If God hath shined in our Hearts , and what may be known of God be manifest in Men ; must they not turn to his Shining and Illumination ? For God is Light , whose inward Light ( which we testifie to ) is become the main stumbling Block and Rock of Offence to these dark Opposers : And where was the Darkness which holy Men endeavoured to turn others from , was it not within ? And the Light shines in Darkness , the Light of God and Christ which their Minds were to be turned unto , it was not an outward created or natural Light , but inward and Spiritual , and so rceived ; God hath shined in our Hearts , see 2 Cor. 4. 6. his Concession to this overturns him : And if the Quakers do not prove these very bare Words in Scripture , to wit , turn to the Light within ; it doth not therefore follow , that they cannot prove the Matter of such a Doctrine , as turn to the Light within ; see Deut , 30. 1. 2. ( both in Tindal's Translation , and in the Bible in folio , London printed in the Year 1576. Thou shalt turn into thy Heart — and shalt return unto the Lord thy God , &c. As also to the Question , wherewith shall a young Man cleanse his Wayes , the Answer and Direction is ( saith H. G. pag. 64. ) by taking Heed thereto according to thy Word , Psalm . 119. 9. And did not David hide this Word in his Heart , that he might not sin against God. And both Moses and the Apostle say , the Word is nigh thee in thy Heart , Deut. 30. Rom. 10. And did not Jesus say , There is yet a little Light in you ( as some Copies have it ) Joh. 12. 35. And while you have the Light , believe in the Light , that you be the Children of the Light , ver . 36. Many other Instances of this Doctrine might be urged XIII . Of Christ as at the Father's right Hand . &c. I May not well omit one Passage of H.G. which had like to have been buried in the bulk and heap of his Rubbish , that is , after he denies the Spirit to be Saviour , though present , to prove the Saviour absent , he saith , He is ascended into Heaven , and hath a real outward Existence at the Father's right Hand , p. 46. an outward glorified Existence in the Kingdom , of his Father or Glory above , p. 47 To which I say , The Saviour is not absent from them that are saved ; for Christ said , He that is with you shall be in you : His ascending into Heaven , yea , and far above all Heavens , was not , that he might remain absent from his Church ; but rather that being departed from them in his outward Presence or Body , he might be the more present with them , and in them , in the Spirit and Power of the Father . And Christ being exalted at the Father's right Hand , is no Proof that he is remote , separate or absent from his People and Members , any more , then that the Father's right Hand of Power is absent and remote from them ; though we see what gross Apprehensions some Men have of God and Christ ; who thus would exclude , limit or circumscribe them , yea , God and his right Hand of Power only to a Place distant from his People and Children , which doth not only strengthen gross Apprehensions in the Ignorant , to keep them in Ignorance , dark Thoughts and car●…al Imaginations concerning God and his right Hand , as if he were a Body or Person like themselves ; but also opposeth his Infiniteness and Omnipresence , and so Christ's Divinity ; whereas the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain him . We may in a Sence be said to be absent from the Lord , while at home ( or Strangers in the Body , in Comparison of that Enjoyment of him hereafter to be had , which yet proves not him nor his right hand absent ( as circumscribed or only far distant ) from us ; his right hand of Power is where he is ; and Christ inseparably with and in the Father , glorified with the Father 's own self , even with the same Glory which he had with him before the World began , which Glory is divine , invisible and incomprehensible ; and therefore human or Earthly Nature is not capable of that divine Glory and Power , wherewith the Son of God was anointed , dignified and exalted at God's right hand : And David said , O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their Trust in thee , and thy right hand hath holden me up , Psa. 17. 7. and 18. 35. and 20. 6. and 60. 5. and 63. 8. and 73. 23. So that neither the infinite God , nor his Son , nor his right hand of Strength can be circumscribed , or limitted into a Separation or Remoteness from the Children of Light , who are saved by the right hand of God , whose Hand and Power is spiritual . And if Saul was struck down and blinded by the Light that shone from Heaven above the Brightness of the Son ( which he calls the heavenly Vision in Acts 26. 13 , 19. In which Jesus did speak unto him , whose Voice the Men with Saul heard not , Ch. 22. 9. How much further doth Jesus himself in the Father's Divine Glory transcend this Vision , though glorious ? And how far is his own Being , his spiritual and glorious Body beyond the reach of these Men's earnal Thoughts and mean Conceptions , as this Man represents Christ , at God's right hand in Glory , as consisting of Flesh and Bone , human Nature , outward Existence , &c. And so to have appeared to Paul at the time of his Conversion , p. 46. and which John saw in that Vision , p. 56. Rev. 1. 13 , 14 , 15. Whereas Paul and John gives no such account of Christ's Appearances to them , as that it was in a human Body of Flesh and Bone ; much less , that he consisted meerly of Flesh and Bone ; but the Cause of the Martyr Stephen his seeing Jesus standing on the right hand of God was , his being full of the holy Ghost , Acts 7. 55 , 56. And it is in the same holy Ghost , that the truely sanctified and Spiritually minded come to see the Glory of God , and Jesus or the Son o●… Man at his right hand . XIV . Of Perfection . H. G. WE do not believe 't is possible to attain to such a Degree of Perfection , as to be as pure from Sin as Jesus Christ was , p. 62. I know not what such should call one the Name of the Lord for , &c. p. 63. H. G. Contra. We can experience the Power of Christ's Spirit risen in us for our Sanctification and Renovation , p. 54. He doth adopt , regenerate , make others Children of God , by the Effectual Workings of his blessed Spirit in their Hearts , by which they are interrested into all the Priviledges , Promises and Blessings of the Covenant of Grace , p. 91 , 92. Anim. We believe that the Spirit and Power of Christ working in our Hearts , is able to sanctifie throughout , and his Blood to cleanse from all Sin , and that in Christ who is the Covenant of Grace , all the Promises of God are yea and amen ; and that Covenant is both a Covenant of Forgiveness , and therein Sin is taken away , as God hath promised , Jer. 31. I will cleanse them from all their Iniquity , Jer. 33. 8. Ezek. 36. 25. All things are possible with God ; and we can do all things through Christ that strengthneth us , Phil. 4. 13. who commanded , Be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect ; and its possible through his Power & Aid to keep his Commands otherwise for what End are they given out to his Church and People , and for what End should they pray to take away all Iniquity ? On whom ( we believe ) he does not impose Impossibilities ; but to such as dwell in the Love of God , his Commands are not grievous but joyous . XV. The Light within above an Historical Knowledge . WHereas to undervalue the Light within which all Men have ; H. G. affirms , that none can make appear that ever any Heathen , Aethiopian , Moor or Infidel , in any remote Parts that never heard the Scripture , &c. That ever did attain , meerly , by that Light within , to the Knowledge of one Jesus of Nazareth that was crucified without the Gates of Jerusalem , that meerly by the Help and Guidance of that Light within , came to find out so much as the Name or historical Knowledge of a cruciefid Jesus , p. 70. Answ. 1. As an historical Knowledge and Profession concerning Christ and his Sufferings in the Flesh cannot save you ; so it s very uncharitable in you Baptists to condemn all Nations that have it not , meerly for want of the History or that historical Knowledge . 2. Though you have a historical Faith and Profession of Jesus , as he came and suffered in the Flesh ; I deny that this Faith will either save you ( for they have as much Faith at Rome ) or that you have from thence any real Knowledge of Christ , either as in the Flesh or in the Spirit , either as crucified , as put to Death , or as living and reigning : It s still your Mistake to count your dark Opinions and litteral Notions the Light of the Son of God : Nay , if you have no further Faith and Knowledge of him , then what 's meerly historical and litteral . If you have not a spiritual and divine Knowledge of Christ , as inwardly revealed , you 'll dye in your Sin , and perish for lack of Knowledge : And many of those called Heathens who follow the Help and Guidance of the Light of Christ within , shall come from the East and from the West , and from the North , and from the South , nd shall sit down with Abraham , Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom , as Children of Faith and Heirs of Promise , who have believed God , and obeyed his Light in them , when you and such like litteral Professors shall be utterly rejected , unless you return to Christ's Light within , and believe and wait in it to know Christ's inward and spiritual Appearance and Revelation . 3. In the Gospel preacht to Abraham ( in whose Seed all Nations should be blessed ) It was foreseen , that God would justifie the Heathen through Faith ; and accordingly , Christ was absolutely promised and given for a Light to the Gentiles , to be God's Salvation to the Ends of the Earth ; that he might say to the Prisoners , go forth , and them that are in Darkness , shew yourselves , Isa. 42. and Ch. 49. Now observe , that the Promise of Christ , both for a Light to the Gentiles , and Salvation to the Ends of the Earth , and himself to speak to the Prisoners to go forth , &c. it s absolute , and not restrained or limitted to the spreading of Scripture , nor to any such Condition , as to be a Light and Salvation ( or to speak ) only to such as get the Bible , and have the Scriptures or an historical Knowledge and Profession of Jesus Christ ; but he is given both for a Light to the Heathen , and Salvation to the Ends of the Earth , and so to call forth the Prisoners where the Scriptures are not ; he being in himself absolute and perfect , and so able to be whatever he is promised of God ; and this Salvation is absolutely placed upon the Son of God , who is given both for a Light , a Leader , God's Covenant and Salvation ; and therefore he is to be followed , obeyed and depended on for Life and Salvation . 4. Moreover , It s possible to have both the Sufferings and Glory of Christ revealed by his Light and Spirit without the Scriptures ; seeing the Spirit of Christ shewed and testified aforehand unto the Prophets of his Sufferings and of the Glory that should follow , 1 Pet. 1. 11. to be sure , they who first wrote Scripture of these things aforehand , had them first discovered or opened unto them by the Spirit . 5. And when Nebuchadnezer said , Lo , I see four Men loose walking in the midst of the Fire , and they have no Hurt , and the Form of the fourth is like the Son of God , Dan. 3. 25. How came this Heathen to have any such Impression or Similitude of the Son of God in his Mind , as thus to speak of the Son of God , or of the fourth , as represented to him like the Son of God ? And what Scripture could he have for this pray you ? Or for Nebuchadnezer and Darius to speak so truly and admirably as they did of the Kingdom and Dominion of the most high God , Dan. 4. 3. and Chap. 6. 26. Let the narrow-Spirited Litteralists , and partial Predestinators ( who would place all true Knowledge upon the Letter , and confine it within the Compass of a few Professors of Scripture ) consider these things . 6. But seeing that Christ dyed for all Men , tasted Death for every Man , and gave himself a Ransom for all ; God doth therefore ( no doubt ) afford a Way for the universal Conveyance of the Vertue and blessed Effects inwardly of his Death and Blood to Man-kind , and that is his divine Light , though many have not the outward Description thereof . XVI . His unlearned Question . AS to H. G's Question , p. 70. viz. I shall only ask this one Question ; what things and other Signs were those which Jesus did that are not written , Joh. 20. 30. and Joh. 21. 25. To this I say , It s an easie matter for Intruders to ask unlearned and unnecessary Questions , whereof this is one ; of those many other Signs and Things that Jesus did , it s said , If they should be written every one , I suppose that even the World it self could not contain the Books , Joh. 20. 25. how then should this Querist be capable to contain them ? I suppose he doth not think himself able to contain more then the World it self : If he saith , it is an hiperbolical Expression , then is his Question hiperbolical to be sure . And if we cannot give him Account of all those Signs and things in particular , while we are not sollicitous to know them , nor do we think it needful ; is that any valid Plea or Proof against the Sufficiency of the Light within or Spirits Teaching ? Would such an Argument against the Scriptures being the Rule please him , because they contain not all that was done ? God gives us to know what 's sufficient and necessary for Life and Salvation by his Light within : But if the Word contain 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , be taken for , to understand as Mat. 19. 11. to comprehend , Job . 21 25. Then in that Sence there 's far more written in the Scriptures already , then either our Opposer or his Brethren can either comprehend or understand ( and therefore it s a busie Intrusion and Cavil in them to query for more ) while they oppose the true Light within , and will not believe in it , nor depend upon the Immediate Teachings of the Spirit of Truth , from whence the holy Scriptures proceeded ; but dark they are , and more grosly dark and confused they are like to be , who persist in that gain-saying Spirit of Prejudice and Enmity against the Light of Truth , which I desire the Lord to give them a Sight and Sence of unto Repentance , rather then they should perish in their perverse Gain-sayings . THE Angry Anabaptist Proved BABYLONISH , IN Answer to Henry Grigg's Pamphlet , stiled , The Baptist not Babylonish . Wherein , Whilst he endeavours to reconcile his Contradictions ( in his Book Entituled , Light from the Sun , &c. ) Charged upon him in a Paper , Entituled , The Babylonish Baptist ; He is run into more Contradictions , Absurdities and false Accusations against the People of God , called Quakers , and their Principles . By G. W. Ex ore tuo te judicabo . Printed in the Year , 1673. The Heads of the following Treatise . I. OF the Light of the Eternal Word in Man , and the Anabaptist confounded about it . II. The Sufficiency of the Light within to reveal God , Christ , &c. III. The Effect of Christ's Sufferings only known in his Light within . IV. The saving Work of the Spirit . V. How the Light in Man is a Gift , and H. G' s Distinction between the Meritorious and Instrumental Cause of Salvation examined . VI. The Lord's Supper in the Type and in the Anti-Type ; the Shadow and Substance distinguished . VII . The Anabaptist's Imposition about their Shadowy Baptism . VIII . Their Definition of the true Saviour and his Being . IX . The Hypostatical Union . X. His Charge against the Quakers Principles and Doctrines ( of the Light within ) proved impure , vile and ignorant ; and the Spirituality , Divinity and Sufficiency of the Light within further asserted . XI . His sad and impious Prayer against the Light in all , which Light is proved of the same Nature ( or kind ) with the Witness in Believers . XII . His groundless Comparison and Distinction ( between the Light of God in man , and the Light of Christ or Gospel ) further refuted . XIII . His belying us with denying the Man Christ Jesus , to ●…loak his own Absurdity and Ignorance of Christ and his Being . XIV . That scriptural Distinction between the Eternal Son of God , and the Body prepared for him further maintained , and the Anabaptist's persecuting Spirit , reviling and traducing the Inocent reproved . XV. A Warning and Reproof to Hen. Grigg , &c. XVI . The Baptist's nine Questions answered . THE Angry Anabaptist Proved BABYLONISH , IN Answer to H. G's Pamphlet , stiled , The Baptist not Babylonish . WHereas H. G. pretends he hath set down my Animadversions ( upon his Contradictions ) in order exactly , after my own Fashion , pag. 1. I say , this is not true , he hath left out the latter part of five of them which it appears did pinch him . Therefore I shall represent to the Reader his Contradictions with my Animadversions , and the Stress of his Exceptions , whereby he would endeavour to make People believe he hath not contradicted himself , but that we must refer to the Impartial Readers to judge of in the Light of Truth . I. Of the Light of the Eternal Word in Man , and the Anabaptist confounded about it . HEnry Grigg saith , viz. I utterly deny that this Light which all Men have from the Glorious Creator is a saving Light , pag. 8. of his Book called , Light from the Sun of Righteousness . H. G. [ in Contradiction ] saith , I really believe that the Lord Jesus Christ , AS the Eternal Word , hath given Light or enlightneth all Men and Women that come into the World , p. 8. G. W. his Animadversion , The Light or Life of the Eternal Word , which is the Light of Men , Joh. 1. 4. is spiritual and divine , as is that Word , and therefore saving to all that truly obey it . H. G. replyes , It seems to me as if this Man had lost his Common Reason — because I deny that the Light which is in all Men is a saving Light ; and yet say , I really believe all have a Light in them from Christ considered as Creator — This cannot be a Contradiction , unless he can prove there is no Light proceeding from the Eternal Word as Creator , but what is saving , p. 2. G. W. answereth , Whilst he would insinuate that the Light in every Man is created , or a Creature , he meerly beggs the Question , and still remains in his self-Contradiction ; for he dare not say , That AS the Eternal Word Jesus Christ is a Creature : Neither is his Light that proceedeth from him , as that Word created , any more then that Life which was in him , which Life was the Light of Men ; will they say this is either created or natural ? As the Eternal Word is divine , so is the Light or immediate Shining thereof in Man's Conscience . H. G. What though it be granted , that the Light which all Men that come into the World are lighted , which flows from the Eternal Word , and so is spiritual ; must it needs therefore be a saving Light ? Was not the Law given forth on Mount Sinai , a Light of , or come from the Eternal Word , and doth not Paul say , that the Law is spiritual , Rom. 7. 14. and yet a Ministration of Death , 2 Cor. 3. 7. and that killed , and in other places that there was no Justification by it ? G. W. Answer , 1. If it be a spiritual Light in Man , proceeding and flowing from the Eternal Word ; it must therefore be the Eternal Word that immediately shineth in Man's Heart ( which is not created nor natural ) for all have not the Law in the Letter , or as outwardly written ; And if this Immediate Light be not of a saveing Property what Light is ? And for what end is it given universally to Man-kind ? That they may be saved ; or onely to condemn them ? 2. Christ's enlightning all men as the Eternal Word and that with a spiritual Light flowing from himself , ( as the Eternall Word Enlightening ) It is not with the Letter which killeth and Cannot give Life but with an Immediate Illumination or Influence of Light from himself which can both kill and make a live ; it hath both the Law , or sentence of Death in it to the transgressor , and quickning Vertue and Gospel in it to make alive to God , and minister Life and Justification from God to them that truly obey it . 3. This immed iate Light or Shining from Jesus Christ , as the Eternal Word , is neither the Letter of the Law , nor created , nor yet natural , as Anabaptists use to say ; but as the Eternal Word enlightning man , and the Life which was in him being the Light of Men ; is therefore a Light and Law which can give Life ( which the Law , as in the Letter could not ) it being the Life it self that was in the Eternal Word . H. G. The great Darkness of these Men who cry up Light and Power within ; this Wile of Satan , and Cheat of Anti-Christ , p. 31. H. G. [ Contradiction ] The Lord Jesus Christ , as the Eternal Word enlightneth all Men ; this Light is the Substance of the Law , the Candle of the Lord , it doth convince of Sin , p. 8. If Heathens follow it they would shine in just living ; the Work of Faith with Power ; I do mantain that Faith is required and must be wrought with Power in the Heart , p. 15 , 16. G. W. Animad . What horrible Blasphemy is it then to term our crying up the Light and Power of Christ within the Wile of Satan , and Cheat of Anti-Christ , and how plainly hereby confuted : We have Cause to look upon those Heathens that follow the Light or Gift of God within to be more godly and better Christians then many of these Baptists . H. G. Rep. Your Lyes and Ignorance — I say , the Darkness of these Men who cry up Light and Power within , is great ; and I did say in p. 31. I should make appear this Wile of Satan , and Cheat of Anti-Christ ( that is to say ) the Evil Doctrine , and Principles of yours — And do I contradict this in affirming there is a Light in all Men , called , the Candle of the Lord , and in owning the Inward Work of Faith with Power upon the Heart , &c. p. 4. G. W. Answer . Hath he not before evidently made their crying up Light and Power within , the Character of the great Darkness , and this the Wile of Satan , and Cheat of Anti-christ ? You that understand Grammer and common Sence , mark the Tenour of his Words , and how he shuffles to cover this Blasphemy and Contradiction , to his confessing that the Lord Jesus , as the Eternal Word enlightneth all Men ; and this is our Principle , though now he placeth the great Darkness , Wile of Satan , and Cheat of Anti-Christ upon our Doctrine and Principles ( without Exception ) concerning the Light within ; and thus still ensnares himself in his Confusion ; as also in one while affirming that this Light in Man is the Substance of the Law or first Covenant , another while , that it is the formed Spirit in Man , Zach. 12. 1. which is called the Candle of the Lord , as in his 9th pag. of his first Book . Where note that by seeking to obscure his gross Contradiction before , he is run into another , viz. One while calling the Light ( of the Eternal Word ) in every Man , The Substance of the Law of the first Covenant ( yea , now the Ministration of Death or Letter that killeth , from 2 Corrinth . 3. 6 , 7. cited by him ) another while he calls this Light in every man , A Spirit that God hath given or formed in Man ; you who can distinguish between the Law ( or Letter of it ) written in Table of Stone , and the Spirit of Man : Judge , if this Anabaptist be not plainly contradictory to himself herein ; for is the Spirit of Man , and the Law written both one and the same thing ? And while the Spirit of Man is confest to be the Candle of the Lord , it s lighted by his Divine Word or Fire , The Lord hath lighted my Candle . II. The Sufficiency of the Light within , to reveal God , Christ , &c. HEnry Grigg again shuffles and beggs the Question thus , viz. Do not you say , that this Light which is in every Man that cometh into the World , is God , is Christ , is the Holy Spirit or Blessed Comforter , and a Saving Light , and that it will convince a Man of every Sin and Transgression , and lead into all Truth , &c. Answ. He here questions the things which in his 18th . pag he affirms , The Quakers speak of the Light within , viz. That it is the Divine Essence , the Lord Jesus Christ , the holy Spirit , &c. But I ask him , where , or in what Book and page do the Quakers speak all this of that Measure or Gift of Light that is in every man ( he deals disingenuously in not citing our own Books and Pages for these Words , that we might consider further thereof , seeing the Stress of his Charge lies so much on them , which though we assert it to be a divine Light of God , and Christ , and holy Spirit , which are one , and omni-present , filling Heaven and Earth , over all , and through all , God unlimitted in his Presence , which to man is an Enlightning Presence ; yet God and Christ is not revealed in all ; for he was in the World , and the World was made by him , and the World knew him not , yet his divine Light or immediate Shining in Man is manifest by measure or Degrees , as man is capable to receive it ; the least degree whereof is saving to them that obey it , and tends to direct and draw Man towards God , who is the absolute and alone Saviour , and he and his Light in men are inseparable , whose Salvation is manifest by degrees , as his Light or Grace in man's Heart is , which hath taught us to wait and to look for that blessed Hope , and the glorious apprearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. The Measure or Manifestation of this Light and Grace , which immediately directs and leads to this Appearance of the great God and our Saviour , must needs therefore be saving : And because God or his Son , in his infinite Fulness and Knowledge , as in himself , cannot be contained in man , in that the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain God ; it follows not therefore , that the Measure and Manifestation of his Light in Man is not convincing , sanctifying or saving , whilst it is confest to be a Light or Illumination of Jesus Christ , as the Eternal Word , enlightning all Men and Women . If the infinite Fulness or Giver of this Light cannot be contained in Man ; yet God hath promised to tabernacle with Men ; and to dwell in them ; it follows not , that a little degree of the Light , Vertue and Knowledge thereof is not saving or sanctifying . A small Stream can wash , and a little Fire kindle and increase to more , and a little convenient Food nourish and satisfie , and a little Water quench one's Thirst , or a small Seed grow and bring forth great Increase ; and so a little Light from Christ can increase and shine more and more till it discover the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ the anointed ; these things are truely known in the Mystery through true Obedience to so much Light or Illumination as God hath given man ; for he ( the Glorious Creator ) hath given a Light to all men sufficient to save , or else they could not be left without Excuse ; but it would reflect upon him for condemning them for Sin , if he did not afford them a Light sufficient to guide out of Sin unto Salvation . But for our asserting the Light of Christ that is in every Man , to be convincing , sanctifying and saving ; H. G. concludes as followeth , p. 5. III. The Effect of Christ's Sufferings only known in his Light within . H. G. IN this appears your great Darkness , and herein you are beguiled and cheated by the Devil , to the invalidating of the Meritorious Death and Sufferings of our Lord , as if there were no need of his Blood to be poured forth , nor of his Intercession , p. 5. Answ. Can either Christ's Light within , or our following of it , invalidate or make void his Sufferings without ? Or deprive us of the End thereof , or of the Vertue of his Blood ? When they that crucified , murthered Christ were turned from his Light within ? Or can any receive the Benefit of Christ's Sufferings and Blood without ( or out of ) his Light within ? Or are the Sufferings and Death of Christ absolutely meritorious for Man's Justification without any Dependance upon his Light within ? If so , how can any be deprived of Justification for whom Christ dyed ? Which was for all Men ; but what Proof hath he from Scripture , That the shedding Christ's Blood was the Meritorious Cause of Justification ? Seeing it was shed by wicked Hands ; and surely , had the Jews and Gentiles obeyed and walked in that holy and just Light that was in them , they had not crucified nor murthered the just One , the Son of God , whose giving up to the Death of the Cross ( though of Necessity ) yet it was occasioned because of Sin and Death that was come over all , which man must only be convinced and truely sensible of by the Light of Christ within ; and it s such only as walk in his Light , who come to know the Blood of Christ to cleanse them from all Sin. And there is a certain Congruity and Oneness in being sanctified , redeemed and saved by his Life , Light , Blood , Power , Arm , Ingrafted Word , Spirit , Fire , Water or by Grace ; these do not oppose Christ as Saviour , he being in all the great Workman of God , through whom God hath saved us by the washing of Regeneration and renewing of the holy Ghost , Titus 3. 4 , 5. These being one in Substance with him , and of himself , as the Spirit , the Water and the Blood agree in one : And as his offering up himself , being a Propitiation for the Sins of the whole World , pouring out his Soul to Death , and making Intercession for the Transgressors was by the Eternal Spirit , so the blessed Effects thereof are spiritually and inwardly received by them that obey and walk in the Light of his Spirit ; wherein his Life and Vertue of the Blood of the Covenant is received unto Cleansing , Sanctification and Reconciliation with God : The great Sufferings , Burthens and Afflictions of Christ were occasioned by man's Sin , Disobedience , and turning from his Life and Light within ; and this brought Darkness and Death over Man-kind ; and therefore Christ deeply travelled in the Spirit of Prayer and Intercession , through all his Sufferings , to bring forth his own Life and Light for man's Deliverance out of Death and Darkness , that he might see his Seed , and the Travel of his Soul , and be satisfied . And this is the Seed that shall serve him throughout all Ages , which shall be counted unto the Lord for a Generation ; and this serves him in his Light , and worships him in Spirit ; therefore they that oppose this Light of Christ to the End of Christ's Coming , Death , Sufferings , Blood or Intercession , as if his Light in Man did invalidate these ; they are darkned and cheated by the Devil , and not these who obey Christ's Light within for Life and Savation in him . IV. The saving Work of the Spirit . HEnry Grigg observes from John 16. 7. That the Spirit or blessed Comforter cannot be the Saviour , pag. 46. H. G. Contradiction ) Till the Coming of his Spirit and Grace with Power in my Heart for the binding of the strong man Satan , and killing my Corruptions , my Soul was not brought out of the horrible Pit , p. 16. having wrought this glorious Work of Regeneration , p. 17. G. W. his Animadversion . Then it s the Spirit and Power of Christ that effects Salvation through the Work of Regeneration , Tit. 3. 5. which is not meerly by Christ's outward Sufferings , though we cannot believe that Satan is bound in this Man , while he is in Satan's Work , blaspheming Christ's Light within , and belying us . H. G. replyes , What sober Christian Man can find any Contradiction here against H. G ? Is not G. W. the Lyar and false Accuser ? I say the Spirit or blessed Comforter cannot be the Saviour or Mediator , p. 6. G. W. Answer , The Contradiction is very obvious to say , the Spirit cannot be the Saviour , when it can save the Soul out of the horrible Pit ; can it save and not be a Saviour ? Or can it bind the strong Man , or kill man's Corruptions , and yet not save him ? And if the Father , the Word and the holy Spirit be God , cannot God be the Saviour ? When as Christ's being the Author of Faith , giving Power to others to become the Sons of God , is a Proof of his being God , Light from the Sun , p. 91. And Christ said , The Son can do nothing of himself , &c. The Father that dwelleth in me he doth the Works , Joh. 5. 19. 30. and 8. 28. and 14. 10. And the holy Spirit where received , also maketh Intercession according to the Will of God , and by this Spirit Christ prayed unto the Father ; but to say , the Spirit or blessed Comforter cannot be the Saviour , is also to deny Christ in his spiritual Appearance , to be a Saviour , and so to confine the saving Work to him only , as man , or in the Flesh without ( or separate from ) us , whereas he said , I will not leave you comfortless , I will come to you , John 14. 18. which plainly denotes him to be the Comforter in that Spiritual Appearance , wherein he that was with them promised to be in them , and as revealed in them ; his Appearance was another or diverse to his outward Appearance in the Flesh , whereas H. G. saith , Are there not three that bear Record in Heaven ? I say yes , and these three are one ; and is not Christ ( the Saviour ) that Word , which is one of the three , which are but one divine Being , Thing or Substance , though revealed under several Considerations and Diversities of Manifestations , and Degrees of Discoveries ? yet all one divine Life and Being , as God is the Word , the Life , the Light , and so is Christ ; and the holy Spirit is Life to the Righteous , and so is Christ the Way the Truth and the Life : In him was Life , and the Life the Light of Men ; the Life affordeth Light to all , and the Light Life to all that obey it , and in it follow Christ , such receive the Light of Life , and come to walk in the Light of the Living , as the Light of Life is received unto Justification and Peace , the holy Spirit is received in that glorious Ministration as Comforter , after a State of Desolation and Sorrow of whom Christ said , He shall receive of mine and shew it unto you , Joh. 16. 13. H. G. Did the true Saviour die on the Cross or not ? Answ. Yes , as concerning the Flesh , but not as concerning the Spirit or most noble Principle , by which he was impowred to his Work of Salvation . H. G. I affirm once again , That neither the Comforter , viz. the holy Spirit , nor the Deity of our Lord Jesus distinct from his Manhood or human Nature , could be the Saviour and Mediator which dyed on the Cross , &c. pag. 7. Answ. This is a meer impertinent Shuffle to prove the holy Spirit could not be the Saviour ; he now tells us , that neither the holy Spirit , nor the Deity distinct from his human Nature ( as he calls it ) could be the Saviour that dyed ; who of us ever affirmed that his Deity or holy Spirit dyed ? But seeing the holy Spirit or Deity dyed not with the Flesh of Christ that was crucified , then the whole Saviour did not dye , but what he calls the human Nature : But if we take his Words according to his Doctrine before , for Proof ( that the holy Spirit or Comforter cannot save or be the Saviour ) only thus , viz. Neither the Comforter the holy Spirit , nor the Deity of our Lord Jesus distinct from his Manhood or human Nature could be the Saviour . This were all one as to tell us , that God cannot be the Saviour , or that God cannot save , if the holy Spirit or Deity be God ; he should rather have said , that the Manhood could not save without the holy Spirit , divine Power or Deity , which alone is sufficient ( and only that which is felt and experienced in Man ) to effect his Salvation and Deliverance from the Power of Sin and Satan : Ye are my Witnesses saith the Lord , and my Servants whom I have chosen , that ye may know and believe me and understand that I am he , before me there was no God formed , neither shall there be after me ; I even I am the Lord , and beside me there is no Saviour , Isa. 43. 10 , 11. There is no God else beside me a Just God and a Saviour , Chap. 45. 21. And we both labour and suffer Reproach , because we trust in the living God , who is the Saviour of all men , specially of those that believe , 1 Tim. 4. 10. And how is God especially known to be the Saviour , but in saing man from Sin , Unrighteousness and all Guile ? I will mention the loving Kindness of the Lord , &c. For he said , Surely they are my People , Children that will not lye ; so he was their Saviour , Isa. 63. 7 , 8. Now consider whether it be not grosly erroneous to suppose the holy Spirit o●… Deity cannot save , or is so deficient distinct , or in it self , whereas though God was manifest in Flesh , God was in Christ reconciling the World to himself ; the Divinity and human ( or earthly ) Nature were alwayes distinct ; and is not God omnipotent ? To the only wise God our Saviour be Glory and Majesty , Dominion and Power , now and ever , Amen . V. How the Light in Man is a Gift , and H. G' s distinction between the Meritorious and instrumental Cause of Salvation examined . H. G. ARt thou not able to distinguish between the Giver and the Gift , between the Fountain and the Stream , p. 7. Answ. Yes , I do distinguish between the Giver and the Gift , between the Fountain and the Stream , between the Fulness and the receiving thereof Grace for Grace ; bu●… while the Distinction between God and the Gift of his Spirit , or between Christ and his Light within , seems to be no more then between the Fountain and the Stream ; how grosly erroneous is it to conclude , either that the Spirit cannot be Saviour , or that the Light of Christ is not saving ? For that 's all one as to say , that either the Stream is not the same Water with the Fountain , or that the Stream cannot wash because not the Fountain or Fulness ; who in his right Wits will believe this ? H. G. But again it appears thou distinguishest not between the meritorious Cause of man's Salvation , and the Instrumental , the killing of the Sacrifice , and the sprinkling of the Blood , &c. p. 7. 8. Answ. Where doth the Scripture make this Distinction , or say , that the killing of the Sacrifice ( which he must mean of Christ ) is the meritorious Cause of man's Salvation ? Such like blind distinctions are fit to darken Knowledge and blind Peoples Minds ; and how gross and unchristian is it to place such a Merit or Worth upon that murtherous Act of killing the Sacrifice if he mean ) Christ as his Discourse implies ? For though Christ Jesus ( by that inherent Holiness , and original Righteousness , and Grace of God in him ) offered and gave himself up to suffer , and tasted Death for every Man ; yet the crucifying and killing him , according to the Flesh , was an Act of Murtherers and Persecutors , who by wicked Hand put him to death ; so that the Dignity and Worth was in Christ and on his Part through all his Sufferings , and not in the Act of killing him by wicked Hands , nor on their Parts ; howbeit the Sufferings and Death of Christ were of great value with the Father , and his Power did appear through all to the bruising the Serpents Head. And if it be the Work of the Spirit to sanctifie and renew us ; is not this a saving Work ? And doth not this bring us to receive the Attonement , and to enjoy Peace ? Who follow and obey this Spirit for a Reconciliation ( through the Death of Christ ) and being saved by his Life ; and so the Work of Christ in saving and redecming man from Iniquity , and in making Attonement Peace and Union between God and Man ( however these be directly pointed at , made way for by the Suffering and Death of Christ ) yet they were inwardly revealed , effected and fulfilled by the Spirit or Life of Christ , where the Word of Reconciliation is received in the Heart . For Christ's Appearance and Suffering in the Flesh did really and directly point at those spiritual Ends ( which are for man's Eternal Advantage ) to be fulfilled by his Appearance in Spirit . VI. The Lord's Supper in the Type and in the Anti-Type , the Shadow and Substance distinguished . H. G. THe Ordinance of the Lord's Supper you call Bread and Wine , p. 19. H. G. [ Contradiction ] The Sign , the Shadow ( speaking of their Ordinances the Substance being Christ , p. 53 , 54. G. W. his Animadversion , Your pretended Lord's Supper then is no more then Bread and Wine , the Sign the Shadow , and therefore their Continuation of no Necessity in the true Church , which hath received Christ the Substance [ Thus far he cites my Words , and leaves out what follows ] The living Bread , who spiritually communicates his Flesh and Blood , or Fruit of the heavenly Vine without your Shadows ; and this is our Lord's Supper that we pertake of ; and our Baptism is spiritual , 1 Cor. 12 , 13. Ephes. 4. 5. and as in 1 Pet. 3. 21. It s said ; to the which also the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Anti Type , that now saveth us even Baptism agreeth . His Contradiction before is between his calling their Bread and Wine the Lord's Supper , now remaining in full Force , and yet confessing them to be the Sign , the Shadow , and that the Substance is Christ. If that you call the Lord's Supper be a Shadow , as of Christ to come , it cannot be that Lord's Supper which remains in full Force , where he is come to sup together with them who have received him in , as being the Substance which ends the Shadows ; but H.G. Attempts to reconcile his Contradiction by speaking of sitting down under Christ's Shadow , p. 9. When as its very obvious , that his Sence of Christ's Shad●… here much differs from his Sence of their preten●…ed Supper , being a Shadow of Christ the Substance as to come , whereas Shadow is metaphorical in the one , real in the other ; for were it good Doctrine to say , You must sit down under Christ's Shadow till he come ? Or that Christ is not come to his Church , while she sits down under his Shadow ; or that your Bread and Wine , as a Sign and Shadow of Christ the Substance , is that very Shadow of his that the Church is alwayes to sit down under , while upon Earth : Whereas what he saith of sitting down under his Shadow , is taken out of Canticles 2. 3. As the Apple-Tree among the Trees of the Wood , so is my Beloved among the Sons ; I sat down under his Shadow with Delight , and his Fruit was sweet to my Tast : See how plain it is , that the Simile here is take●… from sitting down under the Shadow of an Apple-Tree , and eating of the Apples . Were it good Sence to say , I must sit down under the Shadow of an Apple-Tree , and eat the Fruit thereof until the Tree come , when both Tree and Fruit are then present ? And so is Christ with his Church , when she sits down under his Shadow , and pertakes of his living Fruit , where then there is no Necessity of your outside Shadows . And yet H. G. ( in contradiction to his confessing their Ordinance to be the Shadow ) he is still imposing upon his Opposer , That the Practice of it is to be kept up in the same manner as Christ the Night before he ●…e was betrayed instituted , p. 9. But I ask , do you Baptists observe and keep a real Supper in the very same manner that Christ then did with his Disciples ? Be plain and ingenuous herein ; have you the Passover at a real Supper ? And have you the Cup both before and after Supper as Christ and his Disciples had , Luke 22. 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. And was all this either an Institution of Christ , or of Necessity to continue in the Church ? When as what Christ saith of the Passover , to wit , I will not any more eat thereof , until it be fulfilled in the Kingdom of God , verse 16. The like he saith of the Cup , I will drink no more of the Fruit of the Vine , until I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of God , Mat. 26. 29. Mark 14. 25. and Luke 22. 16 , 18. Doth not this shew as much a discontinuance of he Cup as the Passover ? And there 's no mention of Christ's taking Wine , or the Cup , after his Resurrection , either to continue , confirm or re-inforce it ( as a commemoration of his Death ) when he sat at Meat with them , and took Bread and blessed it , and brake , and gave them that their Eyes were opened , and he was known of them in breaking of Bread , after he was ●…isen ? Luke 24. 30 , 31. Jo●… . 21. 13. Howbeit H. G. is pleased to cite Acts 2. 42. and Chap. 20. to prove , that the Lord's Supper and the Practice of it is to be kept up in the same manner as Christ did the Night before he was betrayed ; I ask again , do you Anabaptists practise it in the same manner ? And have we not the more Reason to deny your Practice , if it be not in the same manner as pretended here ? Whereas in Acts 2. 42. its said , They continued stedfastly in the Apostles Doctrine and Fellowship , and in breaking of Bread , and in Prayers ( wherein is no mention either of the Wine , the Cup , the Supper or Passover ) also it s then said that all that believed were together , and had all things common , and sould their Possessions and Goods , ver . 44 , 45. Now if what they did must be binding to Posterities because practiced ; why do not the Baptists imitate those Believers in this of selling their Possessions , & c ? But were it not a very preposterous Way of arguing , to conclude a continuance of Commands and Duties from Practices . And in Acts 20. 7. Upon the first day of the Week the Disciples came together to break Bread , and that Paul had broken Bread , ver . 11. ( according to Christ's Practice after he was risen ) And in 1 Cor. 11. Paul gives a Recitation both of the Bread and Cup that Christ gave in the Figure to shew the Lord s Death till he did come ; as also of the Substance , to wit , the Body and Blood of Christ , which he was a Partaker of in the Mystery ; but as the Corrinthians were too carnal , and Envying , and Strife , and Divisions were amongst them , and some lyable to Idolatry , 1 Cor. 3. 1 , 3. Chap. 10. 14. and 11. 17 , 18 , 19. the Apostle said , I could not speak unto you as unto spiritual , but as unto carnal ; so as then they had not the clear Sight of Christ as the Substance , or Mystery of his Body and Blood ; and the very Stress , Drift and Scope of the Apostles Testimony was to exalt the Substance and Mystery , and to bring them into a spiritual Mind and State ; for which see also , 1 Cor. 10. 14 , 15 , 16 , 17. and in 2 Cor. 13. 5. he saith , Examine your selves whether ye be in the Faith , prove your selves ; know you not your own selves how that Jesus Christ is in you except ye be Reprobates . Now Jesus Christ is confessed to be the Substance , when your pretended Lord's Supper is but the Sign , the Shadow or the Figure : If his saying , This is my Body be but a figurative Speech , according to the Martyrs , p. 9. And I require this Man to prove that Gospel-Ordinances are a Shadow , as he hath confessed their Supper to be . H. G. I would know of this Man , where he reads of any thing called the Lord's Supper , but this which we contend for , pag. 10. Answ. You are contending but for the Shadow , but there is the Lord's Supper in the Mystery , for saith the faithful and true Witness , the beginning of the Creation of God , Behold I stand at the Door and knock , If any man hear my Voice and open the door , I will come in to him , and will sup with him and he with me , Rev. 3. 20. Is not this the Lord's Supper that 's above the Shadow ? And Christ said , I appointed unto you a Kingdom , as my Father hath appointed unto me , that ye may eat and drink at my Table in my Kingdom , Luke 22. 29 , 30. Verily I say unto you , I will drink no more of the Fruit of the Vine , until that day that I drink it new with you in my Father's Kingdom . Is not this the Lord's Supper in the Mystery or Anti-Type ? And I am the Bread of Life , I am the living Bread which came down from Heaven , if any Man eat of this Bread , he shall live for ever , and the Bread that I give is my Flesh that I give for the Life of the World ; He that eateth my Flesh , and drinketh my Blood , dwelleth in me , and I in him , Joh. 6. Is not this living Bread from Heaven conf●…st to be the Substance , and the ontward Bread the Shadow thereof ? H. G. I do affirm , That this is spiritual , ( to wit , the Lords Supper ) the Baptist , p. 10. Answ. The Lord's Supper in the Mystery is spiritual , but not your Bread and Wine , unless they be transubstantiated which we utterly deny . H. G. The Ordinance of Water-Baptism was given forth by Christ after his Resurrection , Mat. 28. 20. Answ. There 's no mention of Water but baptizing them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit , and this Baptism was saving , so is not your dipping . H. G. And this of the Lords Supper Paul received of Christ sometime after his Ascension , 1 Cor. 11. 23. Answ. 1st . Paul received of Christ the Lords Supper in the Mystery , not in the Shadow , 1 Cor. 10. 15 , 16 , 17. yet he delivered unto them the Relation how the Lord Jesus took Bread and the Cup the same Night in which he was betrayed , ver . 23 , 24. which he applyed to a spiritual End , ver . 28. explained before , Chap. 20. 16. and he delivered the Gospel , as well touching Christ's Resurrection as his Death , 1 Cor. 15. 3. and for their being baptized into his Death , and raised in the Likeness of his Resurrection , which was more then a Remembrance of his Death , in ( or by ) the Shadow , which could not be positively enjoyned by , [ as oft as ye do this , ] 2. That which the Apostle received of the Lord , was the Gospel , and a Gospel-Discovery of the Substance , which was beyond and above the Shadow . And his Recitation of the Shadow was directly to point at the Substance , viz. that Bread and that Cup which was the Body and Blood of Christ , and the spiritual Communication thereof ; he was a Minister of the Gospel , the Dispensation whereof was not a Dispensation of Shadow , but of Substance . H. G. The end of this Ordinance doth remain , notwithstaning the pourings forth of the Spirit , and therefore the Ordinance must needs remain , which is to confirm our Faith in the true Saviour , and to keep up our Love to him , p. 21. G. W. What Faith and Love are these of theirs , which are confirmed by Bread and Wine , and what Idolatry and Diversion from the Spirit doth their Doctrine tend to herein ? Surely the holy Spirit can best supply the said End , Gal. 5. 22. H. G. Rep. This Ordinance tends to increase our Love to him , and our Faith in him ; therefore the end remains , unless you can prove Christ is come the second time without Sin unto Salvation ; do you suppose there is no need of this Ordinance because the Spirit can best supply the said End ? p. 11. Answ. There 's no need of the Shadow where the Substance is enjoyed , and whilst thou ( Henry ) hast confessed your Supper as ( its called ) to be the Shadow , the Substance being Christ , thou dost but contradictorily begg the Question , calling it a Gospel-Ordinance , the Lords Supper in full Force , the Ordinance , the Ordinance . 2. Thou dost but imagine a Confirmation and Increase of Faith in , and Love to Christ by your Bread and Wine , which they cannot do , true Love and Faith being Fruits of the Spirit ( which in that it can best and only supply this End , which idolatrously thou proposest to reap from thy pretended Supper ) There can be no Necessity of this thy Shadow for any such End to the Soul ; can there be any need of that which cannot supply the Soul , when that which best can do it is manifest ? Is there Necessity where there 's Plenty , or a full Supply ? 3. Whether those Believers in the Apostles dayes who hoped and looked for Christ's appearing the second time without Sin unto Salvation , Heb. 9. 28. did not accordingly come to experience his Appearance unto their Salvation ? H. G. Darest thou say the Spirit can best supply those Ends without making use of the means God in his Word doth direct unto ? The Usefulness and Sufficiency of the Spirit in fulfilling of its Work doth not dis-annul Christ's Precepts , p. 12 Answ. 1. I would know where the Word of God hath dictated that your shadowy Supper of Bread and Wine is the means to confirm true Faith in Christ , or increase your Love to him , or else confess thy Error ; for the means thou talkst of must have reference to what we were upon before , about your pretended Supper , or else thou art insignificant and impertinent in thy discourse . 2. If the Spirit be sufficient to fulfil its Work and Office , which is to bring forth its own Fruit , what Necessity of your Shadow which cannot do it , nor so far help man , as in the leasts supply those Ends the Spirit is given for , much less help the Spirit therein which is al-sufficient ? VII . The Anabaptist's Imposition about their shadowy Baptism . AGain H. G. is very fierce and rash for thei●… Water-Baptism ( or plunging People in Water ) where he saith , Whosoever brings any other Gospel let him be accursed , p. 〈◊〉 : G. W. Hereby he hath cursed all the People of God and sincere minded , both Protestants and all others in the World , who oppose and come not under the Baptists dipping or plunging People in Water . The Lord sorgive him he is very uncharitable herein ; for our parts , we cannot believe their Baptism to be either the Baptism of Christ or Gospel , or of Necessity and available to Salvation . H. G. Rep. Thou hast in this manifested thy Imperfection and false Anti-christian Spirit ; hast thou no more Care nor Conscience , that thou goest about thus to belie the Innocent ? Have I affir●…ed that Baptism or plunging Men and Women is Gospel ? Have I said , it is of Necessity to Salvation ? p. 13. Answ. 'T is both dishonest and false in thee to accuse me of an Anti-christian Spirit and belying the Innocent , for stating thy own Words and the Consequence thereof from the very Tenour of thy Discourse ; hast thou not accounted your Water-Baptism or dipping Gospel , or at least part of Christ's last Will and Testament , and them accursed that bring any other Gospel ? See thy other Book , pages 24 , 25 , 26. and have not thy Brethren declared it for the Remission of Sins , and the only Way of gathering Churches 1. To teach , and then to baptize or dip them ? See their Confession of Faith ( Article 11. ) presented to the King , and subscribed by above 40. of them . And have not some of thy Brethren affrighted many simple People into Water , to be dipt , formerly by such Language , as , dip or damn ; and what hast thou said less , if they be accurst that own it not : Some of thy Brethren have positively affimed it necessary to Salvation on that Scripture , Except a Man be born again of Water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God , falsly deeming that outward Water there spoken of . H. G. All that are accursed , are only those who bring another Gospel besides that which was given sorth by Christ , as he is King and Mediator of the new Covenant , p. 14. Answ. And your dipping thou reckons to be given forth by Christ , thy pretended Proof being Mat. 28. 20. as before mentioned , wherefore thy case is against all that own 〈◊〉 , or deny to be dipt ; for our parts we will not be dipt by you . H. G. I doubt not but all sincere-minded Protestants are of my Perswasion touching this matter , though we may differ about the Form and Subjects of Water-Baptism , p. 14. Answ. Here thou insinuatest and flatters the Protestants , like a temporizer and decliner of your former Testimony , and contrary to thy Brethrens said Confession of Faith , which is wholy against that scriptureless thing of sprinkling Infants , Article 11. ( as their Phrase is ) and have not divers of thy Brethren deem'd it Anti-christian ? H. G. False it is and a Slander to say , that we make it essential and of absolute Necessity to Salvation , though we believe it essential to Church Communion , p. 14 , 15. Answ. Is it not essential and of Necessity to Salvation , if part of Christ's last Will and Testament , as before thou sayst ? And such to be accurst that oppose it , or if the same Baptism of Christ , mentioned , Mat. 28. and Mark 16. which is annexed to believing in order to Salvation : But if not of Necessity to Salvation , then not the Baptism into the one Body or Church-Communion ; and then it s not that one Baptism or Anti-Type which doth save ( viz. The Baptism into the Name of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit ) for without that Name or Power Men cannot be saved . VIII . Their Definition of the true Saviour and his Being . HEnry Grigg denyes the true Saviour to be the Light and Power . I afsirm ( saith he ) that Jesus Christ is a Man consisting of Flesh and Bones p. 30 , 31. human , finite , weak , subject to Passion as we are , 94. p. 33. the true Christ consisting of a Body of Flesh and Bone , p. 31. 34. H. G. Contrad . John declared plainly that Christ was before him , being from everlasting , before Abraham , the Son of God by Eternal Generation , truly God , David's Lord , p. 35. The Lord Jesus , the Eternal Word , p. 8. The Emanuel , p. 32. Christ the Son of the living God , p. 33. G.W. [ Animed . ] Therefore it s both unscriptural and absurd to assert , that Jesus Christ consisteth of a human Body of Flesh and Bone , or is finite ( seeing he was before all things , and by him all things consist , Col. 1. 17. and inconsistant both with the Eternal Glory of the Son of God , which he had with the Father before the World began , wherein he is glorified , and his Body Glorious and Spiritual : They should have said , that he took upon him that Body prepared for him , and not that he ( Jesus Christ ) consisteth or is made up of Flesh and Bones , but at length they are made to grant to the Deity of Christ more than formerly ; though to their own Confutation as before : And I further add , Is there not a plain Contradiction between Jesus Christ consisting of Flesh and Bone , human Nature , and that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Eternal Word from Everlasting , &c. Besides , after his Resurrection he said , a Spirit hath not Flesh as ye see me have , Luke 24. 39. now for Jesus Christ to have Flesh and Bone , and for him to consist of Flesh and Bone ( in his Sence ) are two differing things ; for to have Flesh and Bones , implies a Distinction between him the Son of God ( as to his Being ) and the Flesh and Bones which he had , but to consist of Flesh and Bones implies he could not have a Being without them , but that he is made up meerly of human Flesh and Bones . H. G. Doth he not evidently declare to the World , that it is a Contradiction and absurd to assert , that Jesus Christ is God and Man , subsisting in too real distinct Natures — because I said , he is Man , and that the Divinity distinct and apart from the Humanity is not the Christ , and yet also said , he is God everlasting and the Son of God by Eternal Generation , p. 16. Rep. 1. It is remarkable how the Man shuffles , evades and useth a Subterfuge , besides my Objection , which was not at all against Jesus Christ being God and Man ( take Man , as Christ is the heavenly , spiritual and glorified Man ; being ascended up where he was before ) but it was against his affirming that Jesus Christ consisteth of human Flesh and Bone ( I distinguishing between consisting and having ) seeing Christ was srom Everlasting . 2. And now also to say , he subsists in two Natures ( divine and human contradicts his saying , he consists of Flesh and Bones , human Nature ; for these do not consist of two Natures , the human Nature is not two Natures , both human and divine , as human or earthly Nature cannot be the heavenly also . 3. If Christ consisteth ( or is made up ) of human Flesh and Bones , and be the Christ only as so considered ; then how is he the Son of God by Eternal Generation , even before ( as well as since ) he took upon him that Body which was prepared for him , or pertook of that which the Children had ( to wit , Flesh and Blood ? ) If the Son of God before , was he not then Christ before ? Or was he the Son of God when he was not Christ ? IX . The Hypostatical Union . BUt H. G. instead of clearing himself in this matter he sillily ( yet perversly ) begs the Question thus , Doth he not deny his human Nature and glorious hypostatical Union ? p. 21. This being consider'd , together with his severe Conclusion against us , of horrible Heresies , Delusions and vile Impostures , as in p. 17. shews , that he has a design to render us as odious and as obnoxious as he can ; for if he can influence the Powers with his own and his Brethrens implacable Enmity , and inveterate Spirit , and possess them , that the Quakers are horrible Hereticks , and vile Imposters , and that they deny the Man Christ Jesus , and the Hypostatical Union ; we must be no objects of Mercy , nor fit to live among Men , but Subjects of Ruine & Destruction ; we cannot herein but take notice of the persecuting Spirit , implacable and deadly Envy that is in some of these Anabaptists , tending to Persecution in the highest . But to the Question , Whether I do not deny his human Nature and glorious hyp●…statical Union ? 1 ●…nswer , 1. That if Hypostatical signifie Substantial from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Substance ; I do confess and own that the Father , the Word and holy Spirit are one Substance , or that the Oneness of Substance is applicable to all the three in Heaven ; ●…or they are not three Substances . And that the Son of God is the Brightness of his Father's Glory , and the express Character of his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Substance , Heb. 1. 3. And that therefore the Father and the Son are one Substance . 2. But that either the Son of God doth consist or is made up of human Flesh and Blood , or that these and the divine Nature are one Substance , I deny , as contrary to the Son being the Brightness of his Glory & the express Character ( or Image ) of his Substance , Heb. 1. 3. for human Nature and divine are not both one ; though still the one Hypostacis or Substance is in all the three divine Witnesses in Heaven ( whose glorious hypostatical Union we never denyed ) this is further opened in our Books , viz. The Divinity of Christ , &c. Serious Apollogy , 1. Part , Chap. 3. Howbeit if we cannot own these to be Scripture-Language , viz. 1. That Jesus Christ consisteth of human Flesh and Bone. 2. That the glorious hypostacical Union consists of a human and divine Nature , or that they are hypostatically one ; he should bear with us , till he produce us plain Scripture for those Positions and Words . X. His Charge against the Quakers Principles and Doctrines ( of the Light within ) proved impure , vile and ignorant ; and the Spirituality , Divinity and Sufficiency of the Light within further asserted . ANd again H. G. is very vile and impure in affirming the Quakers Principles and Doctrines of the Light within to be impure and vile , p. 17. ( note that before he accused the Quakers Principle of the Light within , now it s the Principles , that is , all our Principles about the Light within he accuseth to be impure and vile ) which is also still contradictory to his confessing , that Christ as the Eternal Word enlightneth every Man that cometh into the World , or that the Light in every man is the Light of the Eternal Word , or a spiritual Light flowing thence : This he hath granted , and this is one of our Principles and Doctrines , which he hath accused with Impurity and Vileness , as before , which must needs strike the Principle of Light it self ( though I would believe he might not intend so badly as his Words import ) while we assert it to be what it is as manifest in Man , as , 1. That Christ as the Eternal Word enlightneth every Man , &c. 2. That as the Eternal Word , his Light is spiritual and divine , as the Word it self is , which is the true Light enlightning every Man. 3. That therefore this Light in Man being sincerely obeyed and followed , it will guide and direct man his Way out of Darkness and Sin to God and Christ the Giver of it , and so to Life and Salvation . 4. That men are not condemned , nor can they be left without Excuse for want of Light sufficient given them ; but for their Disobedience and Rebellion against the Light that God hath given them ; which therefore is sufficient . 5. By these we do deny their Predestinarian partial Principle , that concludes , That God hath not given a sufficient or saving Light or Grace , to every Man ; but that he hath refused it to the greater part of Man-kind , as having from all Eternity particularly designed their Damnation , Destruction or Preterition : This we cannot own , though it be the Doctrine upon which much of these mens oppositition is grounded against God's affording Sufficient Light to every man , the Sufficiency thereof , and our Vindication of it as it is ; for which this Opposer , and his Assisters in his work , most blasphemously , and outragiously cry out against us , in this Language , viz. The great Darkness of these Men who cry up Light and Power within ; This Wile of Satan , and Cheat of Anti-christ ; the Vileness and Impurity of which Principle , &c. And all this in his pretended Light from the Sun of Righteousness , p. 31. and 48. which he should rather have called , Darkness from the Son of Perdition . Howbeit H. G. is made to give us a little better Language concerning the Light within , where he saith , viz. I acknowle●…ge the Light which is in all , and do esteem it , and have a Regard to it in its place , and do say , it witnesses for God , and serves for the End and Purpose ( when obeyed ) for which is was given unto Man , p. 18. But for what end it serves and is given to Man ( if it be neither saving nor sufficient to lead from Sin ) he tells us not , nor to what End it can guide men singly following it ; what Esteem or Regard soever he pretends he hath to this Light within , it appears he hath made little Tryal or Proof of its Testimony for God by obeying its Directions and Guidance : We may see what Esteem and Regard this Man hath to the Light within , when he counts it great Darkness to cry up the Light and Power within , and this a Wile of Sathan and 〈◊〉 of Anti-christ . What horrible Atheistical Stuff is this , thus to cry down the Light and Power of God within ? And then deceitfully to evade and say , it was the Quakers Doctrine and Principles ; that which you Quakers speak of it is abo●…inable , and to be detested by all good Christians , p. 18. What 's now the Matter , what do the Quakers speak of the Light within that 's given to every Man ? H. G. It was never bestowed upon man to be made an Idol of , and set up in the 〈◊〉 of God. Answ. The Light of the Eternal Word neither is ( nor can be ) made an ●…dol ; for that which is divine ( as is this Light ) cannot be too much loved , esteemed , set up or obeyed . H. G. It is Blasph●… to say , it is the divine Essence . Answ. To what place wilt thou limit or confine the divine Essence ? In him was Life , and the Life was the Light of Men , is this divine , yea or nay ? If divine , is it not a Light of the divine Being . Whereas H. G. to prove the Quakers Doctrine and Principles concerning the Light within impure , and vile abominable , and to be 〈◊〉 by all good Christians , p. 18. He further adds these Positions by Way of Charge , viz. 1. It is a vile and wicked thing to say , it is the Lord Jesus Christ , the Lamb of God , the great Prophet God promised to raise up . 2. It is a vile Error to say , it is the holy Spirit or blessed Comfortor , for that Christ s●…ith , the World could not receive . Answ. H. G. should have been so ingenuous as to have cited the Quakers Books and pages , first to prove these to be their Doctrines and Principles , and that in their own very Words before he had so severely charged their Doctrines and Principles about the Light of Christ in every man , which till he doth , I must deny him to be either an impartial or true Stater of our Principles , and state them in our own Words , as , 1st . We confess that Jesus Christ ( as the Eternal Word ) enlightens every Man with his own divine Light or Life which gradually appears in Man , and shews it self by Measure ; but God gave not the Spirit by Measure unto Jesus Christ the great Prophet ; therefore we do not call every Appearance of Light the whole Christ : And according to H. G's Definition of Jesus Christ , as consisting of human Flesh and Bone , he is not in any Man ; but we knowing him after the Spirit , and that he is God over all , he is spiritually in his Saints in Union with them , and known to them , and his Presence is unlimitted ; he was in the World , and the World knew him not , whose Presence enlightens Man-kind with an immedia●…e Light from himself , which is able to reveal Christ himself , as he is only peculiarly revealed in the Saints , who have obeyed his Light. 2. The Gift , Enjoyment and indwelling of the holy Spirit as Comforter is a peculiar and glorious Manifestation of Life , only received by those that obey the Measure of that spiritual and divine Light within , which is freely given of God to all , wherein they tha●… wait upon God , obtain more Power and Vertue from him , who giveth the holy Spirit to them that truly ask him from a Sence of its Vertue and Light within , in which they are only capable of receiving the powrings forth of the holy Spirit , and abundant Shedding thereof on them , as those that receive the Measure of his Discovery or Appearance in them : And though the rebellious World doth not receive or accept of this holy Spirit , nor see his Glory as an indwelling Comforter ; yet some enlightning Appearances and Operations thereof , do at times reach the men of the World to their Conviction and Reproof , often striving with Man to perswade him out of his Sins and Iniquities . And if the holy Spirit be God , his Spirit is unlimitable , filling Heaven and Earth , &c. Whether shall I go from thy Spirit , or whether shall I flee from thy Presence , see Psa. 139. 7 , 8 , 9. and his Presence is to Man an enlightning Presence , and Thine incorruptible Spirit is in all things , therefore thou chasteneth them measurably , by putting them in remembrance of the things wherein they have offended , that leaving Wickedness they may believe in thee O Lord. 3. H. G. Abominable it is to say , 't will cleanse from all Sin and eternally save those that obey it , p. 18. Answ. The Life which is the Light of Men is both cleansing & saving in the least degree of it , to them that obey it ; and it doth not in the least deny Christ to be the Saviour , to say , that his Life or Light in Man is saving , being divine , and that by which the obedient come to know and follow Christ , and thereby receive the Light of Life and Power to become the Sons of God , and the Kingdom of God , which Christ said is within you , is compared to a little Leaven , a grain of Mustard-Seed , which therefore hath a seasoning and growing Vertue in it ; he said , believe in the Light , that ye may be the Children of the Light ; and this Light Men ought to walk in , of which it s said , as yet ye have a little Light in you ( as some read it ) walk while ye have the Light , and in walking in the Light , the Blood of Jesus Christ is received , which cleanseth from all sin . 1. Were it not a vile Error for any to affirm , that that Life which is the Light of Men , is neither Divine nor a Saving Light of Christ or Holy Spirit in any Degree of it ? 2. And art not thou H. G. vile and wickedly erronious , to give out such Language , as , This Wile of Satan and Cheat of Anti-christ , that appears blasphemously to reflect upon the Light and Power within , as before , in calling it a Wile of Satan and Cheat of Anti-christ to cry up Light and Power within : And now to refuse believing in the Light which enlightens every Man that cometh into the World for Life and Salvation , p. 19 though it be the Word which is Christ that so enlightneth every Man. XI . His sad and impious Prayer against the Light in all , which Light is proved of the same Nature ( or kind ) with the Witness in Believers . H. G. GOd forbid , that I should ever own their Principle of Light in all , that doth so clearly tend to the racing out the grand Fundamentals of the Gospel , p. 52. H. G. [ Contrad . ] Praises and Hallelujah to God for ever , who hath given us that Witness in our selves of which thou 〈◊〉 - est , p. 54 , 55. which Witness his Sister spake of , was the Light which reproves for Sin , to own and believe in the Light that enlightneth every Man that cometh into the World , p. 8. and 29. G. W. Animad . See what a sad pass these men are grown to , and what kind of Prayers they offer to God against his own Light and witness within , and how contrary to the Gospel Spirit and Light they are . H. G. Rep. G. W. belics both me and my Sister in what he saith here ; for the Witness she spoke of is not the Light which reproves for Sin , which is in every one that cometh into the World , though I confess , she bids me believe in the Light that reprov●…s for Sin , which lighteth every one that cometh into the World , 〈◊〉 contrary-wise she mentioned the Words of the Apostle John , 1 Joh. 5. 10. He that believeth hath the Witness in himself , p. 19. To this I answer , Let all moderate and impartial Readers both thy Sister and others judge , whether I have belyed thee or her in this Matter : And how quarelsome and peevish thou art ; could she intend contrary-wise or another of this Witness of God , then of that Light which enlightneth every one that cometh into the World ? Thou shouldst have asked thy Sister , if she doth not own the true Light ( that enlightens every Man ) and the Witness o●… Word , which he that believeth hath in himself , to be one and the same ? And hast not thou confest , that Christ , AS the Eternal Word enlightens every Man ? which he that believeth hath in himself , as having ( through the Light given ) received Christ the faithful and true Witness ( who stands at the door of Man's Heart and knocketh ) so as in true Union with him , and Knowledge of him to experience his Indwelling , as he dwelleth in us , and we in him , if we keep his Commandments ; and thus the true Believer hath the Witness in himself , which that thou mightst experience , was thy Sister 's wholsom Advice to thee , to believe in the Light that reproves for Sin , which enlightens every one that cometh into the World ; and so thou mightst in Love and Humility have received the Witness in thy self , which if thou hadst obeyed , thou durst never have prayed so wickedly , as , God forbid that ever I should own their Principle of the Light in all ( contrary to thy pretended Praises and Hallelujah to God for the Witness within ) neither co●…ldst thou have opposed the Witness in the Believer to the Light which reproves for sin ( which enlighteth every man ) as thou hast done . H. G. This Witness through Grace I in measure do Experience , not that I believe in that Light which every man that cometh into the World is inlightened with , for Life and Salvation that is insufficient , &c. pag. 19. Answ. If thou rejectest the Gift or Measure of the Light or Life of Christ within , thou rejectest the saithfull Witness , Christ the Giver , and canst not know him to be thy Saviour , while thou art disobedient to his Light within ; and Christ and his Light in man are so inseperable , that he who obeys and believes in his Light within , he and his Faith must needs have a dependance upon Christ the Enlightner ( who is the Object , Author and Finisher of Faith ) and so upon God , who is the Fountain of Light , who shineth in man's heart , to give the knowledge of his Glory in the Face of his Son ; and hereby is the benefit of him as the one Offering , and the vertue of his Blood known ; that both Sanctifies and makes Perfect . XII . His Groundless Comparison and Distinction ( between the Light of God in Man , and the Light of Christ or Gospel ) further Refuted . ANd whereas in thy other Book from , Rom. 1. 19. and Chap. 2. 14 , 15. thou callest the Law or Light of God in men ; The Law or Light of the Moon , to Guide their Paths , by which they are taught their duty to God in morrals , but understand nothing of the glorious Mystery of the Gospel , pag. 6●… . To this I Answer , 1. Those Gentiles mentioned in Rom. 1. had a Sight and Knowledge of the Invisible things of God even his Eternal Power and God-head ver . 19 , 20. was this but the Light of the Moon ? and was there nothing of the Gospel or Mystery of it in this , whereas the very reason of their becoming foolish , vain in their Imaginations , darkned and reprobated in their minds , was that , because that when they knew God they glorified him not as God , ver . 21. they did not like to retain God in their knowledge , ver . 28. Therefore if they had continued in the Light given them , glorified him as God , and retained him in their knowledge , they had been preserved unto Salvation out of that dark reprobate state , and out of those gross evils which they fell into . 2. Those Gentiles mentioned , Rom. 2. 15. were accused or excused according to that Light or Law of God in their hearts , and the secrets of them and all men to be Judged by Jesus Christ according to the Gospel ; but could this be , or were it Just , if there were no Law nor Light of Jesus Christ and Gospel given men ? are they and their secrets to be judged by a Law or Light which they never had in secret ? for my Part , I know none so gross and partial as to affirm it on any serious Thoughts or Consideration . 3. If the Light of God and his Knowledge be but the Light of the Moon , and the Light of Christ the Light of the Sun ; how doth he demonstrate this difference between God and Christ , and the Light of each ? and wherein the Glory of the one so far exceedeth the other ? or can any suppose there is a Light proceeding from Christ as man , that so far excels the Light flowing from him as he is God , or the Eternal Word , as the Light of the Sun doth the Light of the Moon ? what Scripture hath H. G. for this distinction ? are not God , and Christ , and holy Spirit One , and one Eternal Light and Fulness in their own Being , and so the Light immediately shining or flowing thence unto man's Heart and Conscience one Divine Light though manifest by degrees , and in several measures , being still one in kind in man. And this which H. G. calleth the Law or Light of the Moon is granted to be , 1st , The Light of Jesus Christ as the Eternal Word . 2dly , That which may be known of God , manifest in men . 3dly , That Light which gives the Light and Knowledge of God and his Eternal Power . 4dly , The Law written in the Gentiles hearts , who were a Law to themselves : to which I add , If men truely believe in , and obey the Light of the Eternal Word in them ; and retain the sence and Knowledge of God , as therein they receive it , they will find Preservation and Acceptance with God ; for is the Improvement of any more then what 's given required ? XIII . His belying us with denying the Man Christ Jesus , to cloak his own Absurdity and Ignorance of Christ and his Being . AGain H. G. To prove thy slanders , 1. That we deny the man Christ Jesus ; 2. That we are found daily in the Sight of all Persons , denying that man to be Christ , who was born of the Virgin , &c. pag. 20 , 21. Thou judgest us insolent for saying we are falsly accused and guilty of this ; If it be absurd ( as we judge it is ) to say Christ doth Consist of a human Body of Flesh and Bone , pag. 21. which is thy own absurdity . To these I say , Though we never deny'd the man Christ Jesus , nor him to be Christ that was born of the Virgin , ( according to the Flesh ) yet I must still count it absurd to say , That Christ doth Consist ( or is made up ) of a human Body of Flesh and Bone , for that , 1. because Christ the Son of God was , and had a Being before he took upon him that Flesh or Body in the Virgin ; 2. Because that when he took upon him that Body , and even in the dayes of the Flesh , he was spirit as well as had Flesh. 3. In that he is ascended up where he was before , and far above all Heavens , and is glorified with the same Glory that he had with the Father before the World began , 4. He was before all things , and by him all things consist ; this is truely our Christ and Saviour . But If your Christ doth consist of a human or earthly Body of Flesh and Bone , our Christ who consisteth of quickning spirit , and heavenly Body ( of divine Life and Light , a spiritual and glorious body ) is above you and yours ; so we must leave you Anabaptists , with your earthly Christ , consisting of a human Body of Flesh and Bone , together with your empty and lifeless Shadows ; and your darkness and enmity wherewith its you that are stirring up Smoak and Darkness with prejudice against the Truth , the true Light , and against us for bearing witness thereto . XIV . That Scriptural Distinction between the eternal Son of God , and the Body Prepared sor him , further maintained , and the Anabaptist Pers●…cuting spirit Reviling and Trad●…cing the Innocent , Reproved . AS touching that distinction of the Christ , and that Body which was prepared for him , which he took up , and dwelt in ( as hinted in a book , entitled , Some Principles of the Elect People , &c. p. 116. and 117 which he cites as a proof that the Quakers are found daily denying the man Christ ) This can be no denying of the Man Christ , as in that Body , unless either that Body alone was Christ , without the Spirit , or the names Christ , the Anointed , or Son of God , did originally , strickly and solely belong to the meer Flesh or Outside , and that the Son of God was not in being before he took upon him that Body , which I know none own but such as deny his Divinity and eternal Generation ; sor that Flesh or Body is sometimes called the Body of Jesus , this Temple , the Form of a Servant ( which he took upon him ) a Body prepared for him ; and HE Jesus Christ come in the Flesh , &c. Also in the said Book you are asked , what that is which appeared in the Body ? whether that was not the Christ , before it took up the Body , after it took up Body , and ever ? p. 117. yet far be it from us to deny Christ being truly Man , because we confess his Divinity , or to deny him in any of his Appearances either in the Flesh or Spirit , for he was truely Christ the Son of God when miraculously conceived and Born of the Virgin Mary ; and his Name was also called Immanuel , God with us ; now , dare you say , that all these eminent names and Divine Appellations given to him , when in the Flesh , did most properly and originally belong to the Flesh or Body ; and not rather to something more Eminent and Divine therein ? Again , if the Quakers were so notorious g●…ilty of horrible Heresies , Delusions and vil●… impostures , as this Opposer saith , and that they are found daily in the Sight of all Persons denying the Man Christ Jesus , and appearing to all men to be Babylonish rather then H. G. and other Baptists , pag. 17 , 20 , 21 , 22. Why then do divers of you Anabaptists and Dippers so fret , rage and turmoyle your selves against the Quakers , if they be so apparently Erronious and Babylonish in the Sight of all Persons , what need is there then of your scribling so many Books and Pamphlets against them in this time of Liberty , as if you could not demean your selves quietly , unless you see them under Persecution ? for with that you appear most quieted ; But still your striving , raging and clamouring against us doth imply you have lost ground , and you cannot inforce such a belief in people against the Quakers as you would ; thousands have secretly a Witness for us and a better belief of us then that we are such horrible Hereticks , or vile Impostors , as daily in the sight of all deny the Man Christ or are Ravening Wolves , &c. as this old angry Anabaptist would have them believe ; who also prays in his Conclusion thus , viz. The Lord deliver Christ's Poor Lambs from being preyed upon and devoured by ravening Wolves . There 's two things to be Considered in this man 's thus praying . 1. How This agrees with the Doctrine of personal election from eternity ( as held by some of his Brethren ) whether those they all count so unchangeably , and particularly elected , are or can be in any such danger of being devoured ? 2. His great Care over these poor Nations , in praying the Lord to deliver them from Horrible Heresies , and vile Impostures , p. 17. as if the●…e Anabaptists were so National In their Dipping-Church and Society , or as if they were either devout members of the National Church , or these poor Nations were mostly Anabaptists , or ready to be dipt by them ; Is it not easie to see these Men's temporizing Hippocritical Insinuations , and all in the height of their Envy to persecute and run down the poor despised Quakers , if it were possible ? but the Lord God who hath stood by us in our Tribulations and Sufferings will disappoint their malitious Design , and frustrate the Tokens of Lyars ; and the Pit which they have digged for us , they shall fall into themselves . As for H. G. his saying , He never saw yet any distinct solid Answer given by G. W. to any Book which hath come out against them , pag. 2●… . I must leave that to God's Witness to judge of , and to those that are free from Prejudice and Partiality against me , which I am sure . H. G. with some of his Brethren are not , who hath little cause to boast of his Answer as any Sollid Piece , that so much savours of Envy and Reviling . XV. A Warning and Reproof to Hen. Grigg , &c. Hen. Grigg IT s high time for thee to Repent , Lest in thy old Age thou beest cut off in the Guilt of Enmity and Falsehood , who hast turned thy back of the Light of Truth in thee , which through Judgment would have reformed thee , the testimony whereof thou art now turn'd against : Repent , Repent , Lest thy dayes and visitations from God be Extinct in utter darkness and thou have thy Reward therein among Hypocrites and such as contentiously resist the Truth . Thou sayest thou art outwardly decayed , and the time of thy departure is at hand : Light Sun p. 73 , 74. And concludest , Now ( Reader ) if thou hast received any spiritual Benefit from what hath thus occasionally been written , by a poor Worm , Weakling and nothing Creature , &c. p. 94 , 95. To all which I say , 1st , It is high time for thee to be better Prepared for thy Departure , by a true and unfeigned repentance of all thy Prejudice and hard Speeches against a People fearing God and their Principle ( which is on the behalf of the true Light in man ) 2dly , Thou hast entered into a War troublesome , and Contest against that which will be too strong for thee and thy Assistant , when thou shouldest rather prepare for a Rest. 3dly , What thou hast written savours too much of Flesh and fleshly Conceits ( which are against the Spirit and Light within ) to afford spiritual Benef●…t to the Reader . 4thly , [ Occasionally written . ] What occasion to print and publish such a Book , so much reflecting thy natural Sister ? Was a private Letter from her such a great Occasion to print both it , and perverse Commentaries upon it against her ? Didst thou herein do like a natural Brother ? or didst thou and thy Brethren think this would be a good Expedient to work a Conviction upon her , Infamously to notifie her to the World , in print for a private Letter , wherein was much wholesom Advice to thee ? Oh , shame upon such a Procedure as this of thine against thy Sister ! 5thly , [ A poor Worm , Weakling and nothing Creature ] What is this to shew thy Humility and self-Abasement ? thou hadst shown more of that in Silence ; a Fool is sometimes counted a prudent Man by keeping silent , who otherwise bewrayes his Folly , in uttering words , as some men shew their Pride and Hypocrisie by endeavouring to appear humble . 6thly , [ Nothing Creature ] Should another tell thee so in earnest ( in shewing the Nothingness of thy Work ) thou hast produced ; ●…t is probable thou wouldst not take it well : Some , while they discommend themselves , would have others commend them and their Work : But to thee [ nothing creature ] and thy Brethren ( that have assisted and encouraged thee in thy Work against the Light within , and against us who believe in , and confess to it ) we may say , Produce your Cause , bring forth your strong Reasons ; behold ye are of nothing , and your Works of nought , and Abomination is he that chu●…eth you , Isa. 41. 21 , 24. Lay aside your Envy , Pride , Hypocrisie , vain Imaginations and Conceits ; and come down and stoop to this Light within , which at times convinceth and reproves you of your Iniquities , that you may be Reformed , and the Reproofs of Instructions may be the way of Life unto you : Otherwise the Light within will pursue you to your Condemnation . XVI . The Baptist's nine Questions Answered . THat the Reader may perceive the man is uncertain , and argues Doubt●…ulness in his severe Charge before ( of horrible Heresies , Delusions , vile Impostures , ravening Wolves , &c. ) against the Quakers — note , that at last he puts Questions to us about the same Things whereo●… he hath accused us , which he needed not have done , had he either been certain , or had any such plain or real Advantage against us , as he hath pretended . His Questions ( to which he desires direct and distinct Answers ) are as followeth . First , Was he the Christ and true Saviour that was born of the Virgin yea or nay ? Answ. Yes , he was the true Christ , the Son of God , both then and before he took on him that Body , or was so born . 2dly , If you say he Was , I query , whether that same Christ be in the Heart of every Man and Woman ? Answ. The same Christ is spiritually in ( yea , revealed and dwelling in ) the Hearts of true Believers and Saints , and they in him , but not so in every man , though he enlightens every Man , and in his Light he is to be revealed and known . 3dly , Whether he that you own to be the Christ , and true Saviour was put to death , or Crucified on the Cross ? Answ. As concerning the Flesh he was . 4thy , Whether you believe there is any other Christ then what is in the heart of man , yea or nay ? Answ. The true Christ is but one and the same forever , though variously manifested , as both in the Flesh and in the Spirit , both In his Flesh or Body Intirely ( wherein he came unto his own , the Jews , who received him not ) and spiritually in his followers who have received him ; for he said to his Disciples , he that is with you shall be in you ; and to his Father , I in them , and thou in me , &c. that the Love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them , and I in them ; but thus not universally In Man , though in some Degree and Sence he appears universally in man. 5thly , If that Body that was nailed to the Cross , was but as a Garment , which the true Christ did wear , or as a House in which he did dwell : why may not any other Man in whose Flesh Christ is manifested , and doth dwell , be called the Christ , as well as Jesus of Nazareth ? Answ. There 's not the same Reason for any other man to be Called the Christ. 1st . Because of his divine Pre-existence , both before he took upon him that Body or Flesh , and before man or other things were made , which God created by Jesus Christ. 2dly , Because of his Miraculous Conception , as Concerning that Body . 3dly , Because he was anointed with the Oyl of Gladness above his Fellows . Lastly , He that compared that Body or Flesh , which he took upon him to a Garment or House , intended no Detraction from the Honour or Dignity of the true Christ ; for his Flesh was called the Vail , his Body , the Body of Jesus , this Temple , the Form of a Servant , and his Saints are his Members . 6thly , If you own the man Christ , why do you affirm it a Contradiction to say , he is God , of the Substance of the Father and yet truly man , made like unto us in all things , sin only excepted ? For either he must be meer Man or 〈◊〉 ; or else it cannot be any Contradiction . And if you say , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Man , then you seem to side with those Jews that 〈◊〉 Saviour for Blasphemy , in that being a Man he made 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Joh. ●…0 . 33. and if you say , he is meer God ; doth it not then clearly follow you deny the man Christ ? Answ. Thou hast herein Queried like a disingenious Shuffler , to obscure thy own self-Contradiction , and to reproach us ; whereas thy Contradiction was not between Jesus Christ's being of the Substance of the Father , and yet truly Man in time , but between his being from everlasting the Son of God by eternal generation ( or of the substance of the Father ) and thy asserting , that Jesus Christ consisteth of human Flesh and Bone , which ( to be sure ) the Substance of the Father doth not consist of . But Let H. G. and his Assistants Shuffle off this Contradiction if they can . But 't is no Contradiction to say that the Son of God in his divine being , is God , and that he took upon him the pure being of Man , and a body prepared for him , and is the heavenly Man , the Anointed of God. 7thly , I query , whether you own any other Resurrection then what ( you say ) you experience within ? Answ. We believe and own a farther Attainment of the Resurrection ( which with respect to a future State in Glory may be called another ) then what we yet experience , though we have attained to a good Degree and Experience of our rising in and with Christ , who is the Resurrection and the Life , and in him is the Saints everlasting Rest and Glory . 8thly , Whether you believe that that body of Flesh and Bone , which is laid in the Grave ( respecting the Matter or Substance of it * ) shall by the mighty Power of God be raised from the dead at thelast day ? Answ. As Flesh and Blood shall not inherit the Kingdome of God ; so I query , how the same Flesh and Bone 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…lood should inherit the Kingdome of God ? or how 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be the same ( Flesh Blood and Bones ) after 〈◊〉 to dust without any new Creation , as some Baptists affirm ? 9thly , Whether that man ( whosoever he be ) doth not deny the Refurrection of the dead , who doth deny the same IT which is sown ( and shall rise ) mentioned 1 Cor. 5. 38. 〈◊〉 Intend the same Body ( respecting the Matter or Substance of it ) which was buried and laid in the Grave ? Answer plainly without Equivocation . Answ. There is an Ambiguity and Fallacy in this Question ; for in some Sence a Man may deny that the self same IT which is sown shall rise ( as the Apostle did , where he answered such Querists as thou art ; Thou Fool , thou sowest not that Body that shall be : for which he Instanceth Wheat or other Grain ) and yet not deny that IT which is raised , nor the Resurrection of the dead ; though that IT which is the natural Body , and that IT which is the spiritual Body , are not both one and the self same ; neither are celestial and ●…errestrial Bodies one and the same . * And what that IT is , to which God giveth a Body as it pleaseth him ; ( and to every Seed his proper Body , ) And what is that body given to it these Baptists have not yet resolved ; nor given a sensible Answer to ; Although Thd. Hicks , faith , That the Body given to it is the same , for Substance the same that was sown , ( viz. the body of Flesh and Bone●… In this many of them agree . ) But their Elder Brother , Thomas Collier appears of another mind in his Marrow of Christianity ; where concerning the Resurrection , he saith This Truth is by some denyed , and by others too carnally looked upon , some thinking that our Bodies of Flesh shall be raised , in the same Form in which it dyed , &c. p. 93. And further he saith ; That the Form in which they shall be raised that is in a Spiritual Form , not in a Fleshly , for as the Spirit of Christ raiseth us up in the S●…irit , while we are here ; so it shall raise up our Bodies in the Spirit at the Last Day ; it is Sown a Natural Body , it is raised a Spiritual Body , &c. p. 94. Col. 3. 3. When Christ , who is our Life , shall apear , we shall appear with him in Glory , all Flesh shall be swallowed up in Spirit and our Bodies shall be changed and made like his Glorious Body ; all things that offend shall be done away , and we shall be made Eternal , one in the Father and in the Son , and in the Spirit , &c. One in Glory , this for the Saints is enough to know ; besides , what shall be we do not know , it is an Height and Depth , a Length and Breadth unsearchable , p. 95 . Thus far Tho. Collier . These passages of his , I desire that Henry Grigg , Thomas Hicks , and William Burnet , &c. may consider , and compare with their own carnal Conceits and Doctrines , about the same Flesh ; and see how Inconsistent they are : It s evident that : Thomas Collier , did aim at more Spirituallity in the Resurrection , then these men do , he confessing , It should be in a Spiritual Form , and not in a Fleshly ; and that it is by some too carnally lookt upon , &c. And Indeed , it is too much Carnality , and Grosness of Opinions and Thoughts : that darken too many from a spiritual Apprehension and divine Understanding of Things Eternal and States Immortal ; which are only and truly seen in the Light , which is Divine , and Revealed by the Eternal Spirit , through which ●…nly the things of God are Truly Known . THE CONTENTS OF A Bill of Excommunication , Exhibited by the Baptists at CHICHESTER ; Together with a Brief Answer thereunto . THe Evils for which the Church of Christ Meeting at Chichester have cast out of her Communion John Richardson . Answ. We deny you to be the Church of Christ ; you do but presume and beg the Matter in Controversie ; you are in Envy and Darkeness , as will further appear from your Blasphemy against the Light ; for if we say , we have Fellowship with God , and walk in Darkness , we lye and do not the Truth ; but you pretend your selves to be his Church , consequently , to have Fellowship with him , and yet both walk in Darkness , and slight the Light within , and dispise Exhortation to harken to it ; therefore you lye ( in saying you are the Church of Christ ) and do not the Truth ; so that in the Name and Power of the Lord Jesus Christ , we deny your pretended Power and Authority of Excommunication and Condemnation . First , For withdrawing himself from the Church of Christ refusing to come to her Assemblies which practise is sin . Answ. You blind and confused Men ; did you not say just before , that your Church had cast him out of her Communion : but now you excommunicate him for withdrawing himself from you : It seems then , he excommunicated himself , there was no need of your Excommunication . 2dly , For siding and taking Part with William Steel , in some of these things for which the Church did deal with W. S. Answ. What these things are , will further appear hereafter , together with these Baptist's Envy and gross Ignorance . 3dly , For siding , owning and mixing with the People called Quakers , who are of diabolical heritical Opinions , who under Pretence of Preaching up , that all Persons should harken to a Light within , do say , that Light is Christ. Answ. Oh you malicious Blasphemers , you dark Cheats , and blind Guides : is it either diabolical or heretical to preach that all Persons should hearken to a Light within ? Or , that Christ is that true Light , that enlighteneth every Man coming into the World ? For that 's the Quakers Doctrine ; and that in him was Life , and the Life was the Light of Men ; is it diabolical , that they should take heed to this Life or Light which is both supernatural and divine ? Oh you dark , sottish , NightDreamers , when will you come out of your gross Darkness ? In which saying of theirs , there is these two abominable Lyes , first Lye , is their saying , that Christ is in every Man that cometh into the World , whereas the Scriptures say , where Christ is in Persons , the Body is dead to sin , &c. there is a People without God and Christ — in a reprobate State , in a Course of Life unapproved of God — though under a Profession , as the Church at Corinth was — surely then may such be accounted without Christ , that are neither under a Profession nor Practice . Answ. 1 You might as well deny Christ's Divinity and Deity , or his being the Eternal Word , as deny him to be that Light that enlightens every Man , or his Life to be the Light of Men. 2. Again , It s not our Doctrine to say , that Christ is so in every Man , prevailing or ruling , as that the Body is dead to Sin , nor is he revealedly or unitedly in every man ; which the Phraise , Christ in you , or Christ dwelling in you , imports and includes the Saints being in him , as he saith , I in them and they in me ; yet in some Sence , he is in all , and through all ; or else he could not be God , nor Omni-present ; and some Baptists themselves have confest , that Christ in Respect of his divine Nature , is every where ; therefore he must needs be in Man ; and in Respect to his divine Nature , he is God , and God is Light , and in him is no Darkness at all : They that are without God , and without Christ , and Reprobates , &c. Ephes. 2. 11 , 12. 2 Cor. 13. 5. 2 Joh. 9. they are without God and Christ , or as being Strangers to both , and without the true and living Knowledge of them not as if God or his Light were limitted to a Distinct or Remoteness of Place from them . For then , how were he either infinite or omni-present ? But , as he was in the World , and the World was made by him , and the World knew him not , so some are without God ; and know ye not how that Jesus Christ is in you , except you be Reprobates ? But you know not either Jesus Christ or his Light in you , who are blaspheming against his Light that is in every Man. And having taken up the diabolical Conceit of having a Christ in every Man ; then followeth the next notorious damnable Heresie ; namely , That Persons are to hear this their new conceited Christ , viz. The Light within ; and so by this mears , preach down the Authority of the Scriptures ; and so end●…avour to undermine the true Gospel-Faith and Practise of Gos●…el Appointments . Answ. 1. If it be a diabolical Conceit , that Christ is in some sence or degree in every man ; then your own Brethren are guilty thereof , whose Concession is , that his divine Nature is every where ; but I deny your Charge , it being blasphemous . 2. Your calling the Light within , a conceited Christ , and notorious damnable Heresie , that persons are to hear the Light within . This containes a two-fold blasphemy , both against the divine Principle of Light , and Doctrine directing to it ; for the Life which was in the Eternal Word , is that Light of Men which we affirm they ought to turn to , fear and obey , or else they perish ; and so will you , if you continue in your Darkness , Envy and Blasphemy against the Light within . 3. You grosly bely us , in accusing us with preaching down the Authority of the Scriptures , underminding the Gospel Faith and appointments in our preaching up the Light within ; for without the minding and following the Light within , Men can neither truly understand the Scriptures , nor come into the fulfilling of them , nor acceptably practice the Lord's Requirings or Appointments in the Gospel and new Covenant : And now comes into the true Gospel-Faith ; but they that obey and believe in the Light , as Christ commanded , when he said , believe in the Light , that you may be the Children of the Light , you theresore who term this either damnable Heresie , or a conceited Christ , are guilty of damnable Doctrine against Christ's Doctrine and Light within : Had you been in his Dayes , its probable you would have joyned with the hypocritical Jews who persecuted Christ , with your Bill of Excommunication against him and his Apostles . By such a Scriptureless Notion as is [ Harken to the Light within ] which Saying , is not only Scriptureless , but against the Scriptures , or the Way of God noted in the Scriptures of Truth . Answ. You have said your worst against the Light within before , shewing that you do not harken to the Light of Christ within , but to your own Darkness within ; however that you may see your Ignorance , & be convinc'd , that to harken , to obey , or believe in the Light within , is neither against the Scriptures , nor any Scriptureless Notion , as you falsly call it : See , Joh. 1. 4. 9. Act. 26. 18. Joh. 12. 36. Psa. 56. 13. Job . 25. 3. 1 Joh. 1. 7. Isa. 2. 5. 2 Cor. 4. 6. Rev. 21. 24. 1 Joh. 2. 9 , 10. For when Saul ( who afterwards was called Paul ) was converted , the Lord did not say , harken to the Light within thee ; but go to Ananias , &c. Nor when the Angel was sent to Cornelius , did he Say , Harken to the Light within ? but send for Peter , &c. Nor those that enquired of the Apostles what to do , the Connsel was not , Harken to the Light within , but Repent and be Baptized , Act. 2. Answ. How grosly , silly and false is your arguing Assertion ( which is but Mat. Caffin's old Stufflong since answer'd ) for was not Paul converted to the Light within , when he was sent to turn others from Darkness to Light ? and what was that that prict him before ? and could either hehave a Vision of Ananias , or Ananias a Vision of him as praying , or could he be filled with the holy Ghost , as Ananias told him without respect to the Light within ? How could he receive the pouring forth or Gift of the holy Ghost without regarding the Light within ? And what is that in the Conscience , which the Preaching of the Gospel is manifest unto ? And did not Peter preach him and his Name to whom all the Prophets gave Witness ? Act. 10. 43. And was not he that Light of the Gentiles promised ? And did not Peter bear witness to the Light shining in a dark Place ? 2 Pet. 1. 19. But your councel excludes the Light , and is not to harken to it , and yet exhort People to repent and be Baptized ; it seems then they must do both these in Darkness : Oh Ignorant Men ! how do you lead silly Women Captive blinsdold , and in darkness into your Water-Baptism you never knew the Nature of true Repentance ( nor the Spirit 's Baptism ) through which the Mind is changed from Darkness and Sin to Light and Righteousness . And when the Man that came to Christ to know what to do to Inherit eternal Life , Christ did not say , Harken to the Light within , Mar. 10. 17. Nor when Christ sent the Gospel to be preached to all Nations , he did not say , that such as harkened to a Light within should be saved , but he that believed and should be baptized should be saved , Mar. 16. 15. 16. Answ. This Argues still your continued Darkness , that is to be felt ; Can men believe , in herit eternal Life , keep the Commands of God , or be saved , and yet continue in Darkness , as you do who shut out the Light , and divert Peoples Minds from it , as much as in you lyes ? Besides , you bely both Christ and the Apostles ; for they preached up the Light within . As for your Water-Baptism , it is not the saving Baptism , as you Imply contrary to divers of your Brethren's Confessions , and to Peter's Testimony 1 Pet. 3. 21. But you are for believeing and being baptized ; but not to harken to the Light within , wherefore we deny your dark and dead Faith , and your Night-Dipping ; for you are in the dark in all you do , you are out of the Righteousness of Faith which directs man to the Word that is nigh , even in the Heart , to obey it and do it . For his not only taking that Scriptureless Liberty to go to a People that he before knew to be a people , who preach down the Way of Gospel Appointments , but doth now himself plead for a Light within , as that which he is to be guided by , and not by the Scriptures , to judge whether that be Light or Darkness within him . Answ. 1. Your Charge of preaching down the Way of Gospel Appointments is false ; yet we deny , that you have a Commission from Christ to Baptize or plunge People in Water . 2. To be guided by the Light within , is that you still boggle at ; but is this Matter worthy of Excommunication ? the Darkness wherein you walk is sufficiently manifest , and therein you undertake to judge by the Scriptures , without the Guidance of the Light , that gave them forth , though the Light be most sufficient to discover it self and to make manifest all things that differ : for whatsoever things are reproved are made manifest by the Light. Though Christ said , take heed least the Light within thee be not Darkness . Answ. There were those that put Light for Darkness , and Darkness for Light , as you do ; in which Sence Christ gives this Caution , if the Light that is in thee be Darkness , how great is that Darkness ? Therefore it could not be really Light , neither can real Light be properly counted Darkness . And for the Rule by which Christ saith , we shall be tryed at the great and last Day , is what he had spoken to the Sons of Men when in Person among them , Joh. 12. 48 , 49. but now saith . J. R. we must try the Scriptures by the Light within . Answ. The Words should rather be [ We must make use of the Scriptures by the Light within ] but Christ doth not say , that the Rule by which you shall be tryed at the last Day , is the Scriptures ; you pervert his Sayings ; but he sayes , he that rejecteth me and receiveth not my Words , hath one that Judgeth him , the Word , &c. Joh. 12. 48. For God will judge the secrets of Men by Christ Jesus ; and his living Word ( Christ being the universal Judge , and by his Law in them , their own Thoughts and Consciences bearing Witness in that day , for or against them : Howbe it , the Jews that sinned in the Law , were also Judged by the Law ( o●… Scriptures ) for rejecting Christ , and so are you also , for contemning his Light within . Oh horrible Prophanness ! that ever any should dare to set up their own whimsical Imaginations above Christ's Sayings ; and not only so , but condemn them where their erroneous Opinions cannot own them . Answ. We perceive you have not one good Word for the Light within ; you have called it as bad as you can ; one while a diabolical Conceit , another while Damnable Heresie , another while their new conceived Christ , another while scriptureless Notions , another while Darkness , and now tels of whimsical Imaginations ; but erroneous opinions and ●…phemous , too are your own ; and you have most 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 us ; for Christ's Light within cannot lead us either to slight or condemn his sayings , but to fulfil them . For refusing to hear the Counsel of the Church , wherein the Churches Endeavours have been to convince him of his Errors and to reclaim him . Answ. It is easy to see what a Church you are , that blasphemes against the Light within , and do not admit of it in any Duty : a sad Church , thus to shut out and contemn the Light you are in thick Darkness until now ; your Envy greatly blinds you ; Therefore it is well not to hear your Counsel , seeing that it is to perswade us , not to harken to the Light within , and we will never harken to your darkness , nor be led blindfold by you blind Guides . And for the Churches Authority to Excommunicate Persons guilty as aforesaid , see 2 Thes. 3. 6. Rom. 16. 17. Mat. 18. 17 , &c. The Apostles Way was one and the same in Every Church , 1 Cor. 4. 17. Written by me W. Flecher , W. Claton . Answ. The true Church's Authority was given her by Christ , who is the true Light , and this we own , and reverence the Power the Apostles had ; but you falsly assume a Power , and pretend their Authority to excommunicate Persons for professing and owning his Light within ; and ( it seems ) to cast out such as you needed not , who with-draw themselves from you ; whereas the true Church never cast out nor excommunicated Persons sor owning the Light within , but for running into the Deeds of Darkness : theresore in the Name and Power of our Lord Jesus Christ we deny you , who are called Baptists and Anabaptists , to be the Church of Christ ; we deny your Authority ; we deny your Excommunication ; we deny your blasphemous and scornful Doctrine against the Light within , and Exhort you to leave your Envy , and turn from your Darkness ; and condemn your Blasphemy , and imbrace the Light of Christ within ; lest you perish in your Darkness and Gainsaying . Note that some of the Baptists and Apostates have upbraided us for Excommunicating persons out of our society ; but we never Excommunicated any for owning the Light within , but for their unfruitful works of Darkness . Hereafter follows a Rebuke to the Baptists and their Zion , or Church , from some of their Own Ministring Brethren , given out when they were more tender and free from Prejudice then now they are ; and have confessed to those Truths ( viz ) the Immortal Seed , the Light , Trembling at God's Majesty , Travil of Soul , the Inward work , and Perfection , which now divers of them deride and oppose ; also their reigning Abominations are confessed , which since are greatly increased against the Light , which then made some of them 〈◊〉 of their Iniquities , and to bewail them . And this is recited , for these Baptists and their Hearers , to Remind them of the former Tenderness and Desires in some of their Brethren after an Amendment among them , and that these our present Opposers may consider and see how greatly they are declined , hardened and Apostatized from th●… good that formerly was stirring among them : 〈◊〉 all which I desire their Return , Repentance and Conversion to the true Light , that they may have regard to the Inward Work of God , to break their Hearts , and work out their Abominations , Pride and Envy , &c. Some Confessions concerning the baptized Churches , made by their Messengers in their bewailing Epistle from Twerton , dated the 18th Day of the 7th Month , 1657. and signed in their Names , and by their Appointments , by Thomas Colliar , Nath●…niel Strange and Thomas Glass , and directed , viz. TO all the Churches of Jesus Christ , called to be Saints , through the Immortal Seed (a) which dwelleth in you , and shall be with you forever . A few poor Worms — we would labour night and day , warning every one of you , striving with you , and together with God for you , that every one of you may be presented perfect (b) in Christ Jesus — The several Weights that lie upon you and us — we have been ready to cry out , we are cut off from before thine Eyes — while we carryed the Yoakes and Burthens of Zion , and have been as the Souls under the Altar , crying , how long Lord , holy and true — The Lord hath lightned us , while we thus looked unto him — we could not be satisfied with Life for our selves , (c) Some Revivings have attended our Souls — and now , as we have been faithful for you to God ; So we would now be faithful for God to you . We have been arraigning the Abominations of Zion besore the Bar of the most high ; we have been crying for Justice from the Throne upon every Sin , for Strength and Light , (d) to purge our every persisting impenitent Sinner , as Enemies and Traitors to the Crown & Dignity of our Lord Jesus : More particularly , we have made Confession of those reigning Abominations (e) in our own Souls , and in the Churches , of that light Spirit living short of the true Sight and Sense of God's Majesty , in his Churches , and among his Saints , from whence proceeds that Vanity and Carelesnes which doth so much attend them . We have bewailed that wretched , worldly Spirit , that plucks down the Saints from their Excellency , and leaves such Blackness upon them (f) which renders them so uncomely in the Eyes of Men. We have bewailed that Coldness and Deadness that is upon our selves , and upon the Churches ; that Formality in holy Duties , that Indifferency , and that Laodicean Spirit that is fallen in upon us (g) while we have been crying , let him make Speed and hasten his Work , that we may see it ; let the Counsel (h) of the Lord come that we may know it ; and all this while , we have been drawing Iniquity with Cords of Vanity , having been in a great Measure , as without the Sense of the Work ; so without the true Travil of Soul (i) which this Work should put us into — the Crown is fallen from Sion's Head by Reason of her Iniquity ; we have been bewailing personal Iniquity , Congregational Iniquity , National Iniquity , Family Iniquity , Closet Iniquity ; we have by Search found poor Sion , as it were without Soundness (k) from the Crown of the Head to the Sole of the Foot , ful of Bruises and putrified Sores ; your own poor Souls are in Distress , Heaven and Earth seem to frown — Oh! come down , sit in the Dust — and weep bitterly before the Lord for all your Abominations (l) you have but as it were , played with God ; you have not trembled in his Presence (m) you have been wanton before him , having been without the Terrour of his Majesty ; therefore you have confessed , and have delighted to word (n) it out with the Lord — Oh! how often have you mocked God ? — It appears already how God takes it at your Hands ; We have begged him to save us , yet this once more , and truly we tremble — the Hope that is in Isra●…l — lies in your putting from you that accursed Thing ; Oh! now if you would pursue this Worldliness , this Coldness and Sloathfulness , your personal Neglects , your Family Neglects — how doth the World , as a Canker , eat out your Affections to the Lord Jesus , eat out your Time , your Strength , your Zeal , while you have been asleep in the Lap of this Da●…ilah , your Locks have been cut off , and you are but as other Men (o) whoever beholds you may say , what singular thing do ye ? Now then lay to Heart these crying Abominations — the World is too beautiful — this hath bewitched — you have fallen before your Enemies (p) — this Iniquity hath been apparently written upon your Fore-heads , witness your Remissness in Meetings , your Neglect or the poor Saints & Ministers of Christ , whose daily Complaints and Addresses (q) are living Monuments of this reigning Abomination , your Cruelty to Servants , Children , exacting all their Labours , but take no Time to counsel them , instruct them that are without Christ , that miserable Estate wherein they are — this hath made Professors Families so dry (q) useless and unprofitable — this Sin eats out all of that divine Sweetness of regenerating , sanctifying Grace : We have mourned (r) in that we have had so great a hand in this Trespass , in not bearing so faithful a Testimony against it in our Ministry ; but slavish Fear of being accounted selfish , or the like , hath stopt our Mouth (s) until the Mouth of this Iniquity hath almost devoured the poor Churches of Christ — That of Sloathfulness and Carelesness , another reigning Evil — They are Evils rooted deeply in the Heart ; it is hard to get them out (t) They are Sermon-Proof and Epistle-Proof ; so strong , that they have wrested all Weapons out of the hands of Saints and Ministers , that have been formed against them : Now we desire we may no longer rest in a Testimony of Words , but proceed to take some effectual Course , that Sin or Sinners may be purged out (v) of the house of God ; in order to this , we desire the Churches , that they would set some day or dayes a part , wherein they may bewail the Iniquities and Pollutions o●… Zion before the Lord — also , that the Ministring Brethren would without Respect of Persons (w) bear their constant Testimony — warning every one to f●…ee from these Abominations — Another Evil we had Thought to have spread before you (x) for want of Opportunity , we shall now omit , yet desire you to lay it to Heart . THE Presbyter's Antidote TRYED , Or Stephen Scandret ( with his Antidote against Quakerism ) Proved a PHYSICIAN of No Value ; AND The Truth plainly asserted and vindicated in divers Weighty Points , against both the Imperfect and corrupt Work of S. S. and his Masters , the Assembly of Divines ( so called , who sat at Westminster in the long Parliament's Time ) and of the general Assembly of the Kirk of Scotland , about their Confession of Faith , which was first printed at Edenburg , and after reprinted at London , Anno 1651. G. W. Ye are all Physicians of no Value , Job . 13. 4. Printed in the Year 1673. THE Presbyter's Antidote TRYED , &c. CHAP. I. A Comprehensive Account concerning the Rule , the Light , and Scripture , Explaining both ●…ur sense of the terms and S. Scandret's ; together with the Assemblies Confession about the Scriptures . BY the word [ RULE ] we understand , 1st , The Power of Government , and Authority to order and rule , in the Sense that in the first Creation the greater Light was set to rule the Day , Gen. 1. 16. or for the Rule and Order of the Day : So in the new Creation the divine Light of Christ , the Son of Righteousness , doth govern and rule in the Order of his Everlasting Day in the Souls of the Righteous ; the Path of the Just being this shining Light , which shineth more and more until this perfect Day . 2ly , So this divine Light is truly the only Rule , for its being most eminent ( above all outward Rules and Prescriptions ) ●…or its Power , Glory , Virtue , Order , and Government ( as Rule of Life ) in all the Children of Light. The only trying and discovering Rule , for its manifesting whatsoever things are reproveable , Ephes. 5. 13. whether they be Spirits , Works or Words ; and he that doth Truth , cometh to the Light , that his Deeds may be made mani●…est , that they are wrought in God , Joh. 3. 21. 3dly , By only Rule , An universal , manifest , publick Standard ●…or Truth and Righteousness , in the Consciences , of all People and Nations , and against all Sin , Wickedness and Unrighteousness ; and so is the S piritual and Divine Light of the Son of God , in whom was Life , and the Life was the Light of Men , Joh. 1. 4. whose Life is Supernatural , Increated and Incorruptible , Christ the divine Word being that true Light that inlightens every Man coming into the World , vers . 9. 4thly , Concerning that heavenly Gift , or divine Manifestation within , which was the Saints Rule of Life , the Apostle Paul thus speaketh , 2 Cor. 10. 13. But we will not boast of things without our Measure ; but according to the measure of the Rule , which God hath distributed to us , &c. ver . 15. not boasting of things without our Measure , that is of other mens Labours ; but having Hope when your Faith is increased , that we shall be enlarged by you , according to our Rule abundantly , vers . 16. not to boast in another Mans Line of things made ready to our hand ; And Philip. 3. 16. whereto ye have already attained , let us walk by the same Rule , let us mind the same thing , Gal. 5. 15. and 16. for in Christ Jesus , neither Circumcision , nor Uncircumcision availeth any thing , but a new Creature ; and as Many as walk according to this Rule , Peace be on them . By all which note , that there was an universal , divine and spiritual Rule , dist●…ibuted of God to the true Believers , and new Creatures in Christ , in whom stood their several Attainments and Growths ( and this was not other mens Lines nor the Letter ) wherein they were mutually enlarged : nor could the Letter be this Rule , for that required Circumcision what then was Paul's Rule , for denying it , but the Spirit of Li●…e , the new Covenant , the Immediate Dictates of the holy Ghost ? see Act. 15. 24 , 28. Heb. 8 , 9 , 10. By the Word Scriptures we understand , not only Writings in general , but particularly all the holy Scriptures contained in the Bible , not excluding those many Writings of Prophets and Apostles , which are not inserted in the Bible , which contain a Plurality of Words of Truth , Commands , Prescriptions , Precepts , &c. ( and in that Sense ) Rules or Directions , relating to both the old and new Covenant ; and to divers States , Occasions and Dispensations , many of which are abolisht with the old Covenant , which therefore cannot properly ( in the Singular ) be called the Rule , or one Intire full Rule , much less the only Rule ( with Exclusion of all others , as falfe as S. S. very blasphemously doth ) the Chiefest and highest Rule , as he unscripturally and erroneously calls them ; for the Spirit or Light that first gave them forth with its Immediate Illumination , Motions , and Directions , being both before and higher then the Scriptures or Writings , how true soever they be . So , though we confess the holy Scriptures to contain true Words , Commandments , Precepts , Directions ( and so Rules ) yet it 's no more proper to call them the only highest Rule and Guide to Heaven and Glory ( as S. S. doth ) then to call them the only highest Word , Commandment and Light , which they are not : We can neither call the Scriptures God , nor Christ , nor the Light , nor the Spirit , nor the Power of God ; but Innocently and simply as they term or call themselves , owning them in the true Light given us , according to the true Intent , Purpose and End , for which they were first given out from divine Inspiration ; for which none that are Ingenuous will Blame us : for , the Word lives forever ; It 's setled in Heaven ; It 's also to be known and felt nigh in the Heart ; and it is the holy and living Commandment of Power , which is called Life Everlasting , and this is Immediate . This Word was to David a Light , and Lanthorn to his Paths ; and therefore his only Way and Rule to Felicity : Yea , for its Eminency it may be truly esteemed the Word of Words , the Commandment of Commandments , the Rule of Rules , that divine Light , wherein consists the Government , Rule and Order of the Everlasting Day of Salvation , Glory and Life , to all the Children of the Day , who in order to that Attainment , have obeyed and followed the Degree and Measure of this true and divine Light in its Manifestation in them . The Scriptures also ( or Bible ) contain many various Passages , as well Historical as Doctrinal , even of the Examples of Men in the fallen State , of things done in the time of Ignorance , and of the Failings and Weaknesses of divers , of things transacted and do●…e in a Time and State not sutable to that of Man in the beginning , nor to that of the Gospel or new Covenant : As for any Man to have divers Wives , or many Concubines at once ; it was not so in the Beginning , nor ought to be so now , yet such things are recorded in Scripture of divers ; Therefore 't is both Gross , Impious , and Contradictory for any to count the whole Bible the Rule of Life , and Duty without Exemption , according to our Opposer , p. 61. Moreover , for his Asserting the Scriptures Infallibility , and as so being the highest Rule , * He neither puts a Limitation of what part of the Scripture or Bible he intends , nor yet tells us in what Language , Copy or Translation they are infallible ; for every Rule whether moral or artificial , ought to be infallible , otherwise 't is n●… Rule , but therein lyes obscure under Ambiguities : Howbeit , we may suppose he means , according to his Masters , the Assembly of pretended Divines , Confes. Chap. 1. where having declared , that the holy Scriptures are given by Inspiration of God to be the Rule of Faith and Life , they add Artic. 8. The old Testament in Hebrew ( which was the Native Language of the People of God of old ) and the new Testament in Greek ( which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the Nations ) being immediately Inspired by God , and by his singular Care and Providence kept pure in all Ages , are therefore Authentical , so as in all Controversies of Religion the Church is finally to appeal to them ( thus far the Assembly ) From hence it follows , that when Steph. Scandret and these his Masters tell us , that the Scriptures are the chief and highest Rule , the only Infallible Rule to Heaven and Glory , or the Rule of Faith and Life , and to decide Controversies , we are to understand it is as they are in Hebrew and Greek , and as in the first Copies as given by Divine Inspiration , by which these men still lead people in the dark and in Doubtfulness , at a Distance from Life and Glory , and Ignorant of the Rule , and Way thereto ; implying this Difficulty , that they must first learn Hebrew and Greek , and be ascertained of the truth of the Copies , as concurring with the first ; And this must be from their own knowledge ( not from the Priests Interpretations and various Meanings ) and yet the Assembly and S. S. still fall short of clearing the matter of the Greek , not resolving which is the true infallible Copy , there being divers Greek Lections or Copies of the new Testament : But further , if they could produce or evince the first Copy , or that which most agrees with it , while they prefer the Writing as the chief or only Rule of Faith and Life , they leave people in Darkness and Death , in not referring them to the Inward Divine Light or Inspiration of the Almighty , as the chief and only Rule , which gave forth the holy Scriptures , and without which they cannot be truly understood in any Language . Moreover , concerning the Hebrew W. Tindal ( of whose Translation we have one ancient English Bible without Verses ) in his Prologue prefixt in some Bibles , he saith thus , viz. W. Tindal unto the Christian Reader . If ought seem Changed , or not altogether agreeing with the Greek , let the Finder of the Fault consider the Hebrew Phrase , or Manner of Speech left in the Greek Words , whose Preterperfect Tense and Present Tense is oft both one ; and the Future Tense is the Optative Mood also ; and the Future Tense is oft the Imperative Mood in the Active Voyce , and in the Passive ev●…r ; likewise Person for Person ; Number for Number , and Interrogation for a Conditional ; and such like is with the Hebrews and Common usage [ and he further adds ] if I shall perceive , either by my self , or by the Information of others , that ought be escaped me , or might be more plainly Translated , I will shortly after cause it to be amended ; howbeit , in many places , me thinketh it better to put a Declaration in the Marg●…nt then to run too far from the Text. Now , from hence considering the Difficulty of truly translating the Scriptures from the Hebrew , both as to Time , Manner , Voice , Person , Number , and Condition , &c. how easily herein may the Sense be greatly changed , and how this ingenuous Translator himself doth not place Infallibility upon his Work or Translation from the Hebrew , but ingenuously proffereth Amendment of it , if either by himself or an others Information he shall perceive a Deficiency in which he hath done ; and also considering what Irreconcileable Controversies have been among many counted Learned , about the Translations in divers Places of Scriptures , and how many Amendments have from Time to Time been made upon them , and even how many various English Translations we have , what Dubiousness and Uncertainty are both Priests and People in , both as to Rule , Faith , and Foundation of their Religion , who neither know nor own the Principle of true Knowledge , and divine Understanding ( which is God's Gift ) while they have no regard to divine Illumination — as the Rule of Faith , before the Scriptures ; but do cry and set up , one while a meer Translation or Reading ( which to them may be dubious ) as their only highest infallible Rule of Faith ; another while their own uncertain Meanings , private Conceptions , and fallible Interpretations upon the Scriptures , they set up as the Rule and Judge over them , ( as their Phrase hath been ) to Reconcile the Scriptu●…es , which ( as given by divine Inspiration ) cannot be broken . And while still their Work tends to divert peoples Minds from depending upon the Spirit of Truth , and its Inlightning , as the chief and only infallible Guide and Rule , where will they center ? and what a Babylonish Structure do they erect upon their uncertain Conjectures and dubious Interpretations , from their fallible Spirits and Judgments ? And to place Infallibility upon the Letter , or Writing , or English Translation ; whereas W. Tindal , a Translator himself did not attribute this to his Translation , nor divers others in their putting many marginal Notes upon some English Bibles , as from the Hebrew and Greek ; and even their learned D. Ce●…l , set forth a large Book in Folio , entituled , An Essay to the Amendment of the Last English Translation of the Bible , wh●… he finds fault with , and corrects several noted Places ; and what less is signified in their ample Annotations , and manifold Notes upon some Bibles ? And moreover , when some of the Clergy have made that of Job 2. 9. their Texit , viz. that Job's Wife said unto him , Curse God 〈◊〉 dye ; they have told People , that that Hebrew Text signifieth , Bless God and dye ; and some take it so , as to desire humbly of God , that he might dye ( which arguing Impatiency was reproveable ) others , that it was , Curse God and dye ( which was much more reproveable , not only as Foolishness but Wickedness ) And concerning that of Saul and the Witch of Endor , his bidding her bring him up Samuel , it 's said , And when the Woman saw Samuel , ver . 12. and Saul know , that it was Samuel , vers . 14. And Samuel , said unto Saul , why hast thou disquieted me , &c. ver . 15. then said Samuel , ver . 16. So the matter runs in Samuel's name ; Whereas those of the Clergy have told us it was Satan , and that Saul spake according to his gross Ignorance , not considering the slate of the Saints after this Life , and how Satan hath no Power over them , it was Satan who to blind Saul's Eyes took upon him the Form of Samuel , &c. Now seeing this Interpretation is so plainly contrary to the Words themselves ( for which I blame them not in this , though in many others I do ) I query , how the●… agrees this with their placing Infallibility upon the Scriptures , not only on the Doctrinal , but on the Historical Part , when they are minded to oppose the Sufficiency of the Light of Christ within ? Many more Instances might be brought to shew their vast Variations from the Letter of the Scriptures in their Interpretations : By the Tenor of all which Discourse before of this Import , it 's evident , that their Confession ( at least of many of them ) is , that a●…l the Scriptures are not Infallible ; but some Corrupted in the various Translations , ●…hers , not to be taken meerly as the Words import . Howbeit for all this , many Priests and Professors , for their own Ends , if they be about to oppose the Light within or divine Illumination , and the Sufficiency of the holy Spirit 's Teaching , denying it to be either the Rule of Faith or Life , or sufficient to guide to Heaven without the Scriptures ( which argues their gross and carnal Diffidence and sinful Unbelief ) then in plain Contradiction , they place all the Infallibility and sole Sufficiency therein upon the Scriptures , as the only highest Rule of Faith and Life , the only Rule and Way to Heaven and Glory , the only Rule totry both Doctrines and Spirits by : And here they most Idolatrously , and in a most pre●…sterous Manner , prefer the Scriptures before Christ , and set them up above the Spirit that gave them forth , while they slight and cry down the Light of Christ within , as not any Rule , &c. though it both manifests all things reproveable , and be the Prover of Deeds , whether they are wrought in God ; for which End , he that doth Truth bringeth his Deeds to the Light , Joh. 3. 19 , 20. But as Christ said to the unbelieving Jews , so it may justly be said to these Opposers of his Light within now , Ye search the Scriptures , for in them ye think to have Eternal Life , and they are they which testifie of me ; but ye will not come to me that you might have Life , Joh. 5. 39 , 40. Mark , ye will not come to Christ , that ye might have Life ; and now , the Scriptures do not direct Men to themselves for Life and Salvation , but to the Son of God , who is both the Life , the Foundation , the Way , and so the only Rule , Guide and Teacher and not the Scriptures . But why do the Presbyters of our Times so often exalt their own divers Meanings and Interpretations , as the Rule above the Scriptures , contrary to the great Stress , which at other times they lay upon the Scriptures ? So that finally , they deny both the Spirit & the Scriptures to be the Rule , setting up their own Meanings over both , being ignorant of the Scriptures and the Power of God. We may believe , that the Truth of it is , It is more consistent with their Gain and Trade of Preaching , that their Meanings should be the Rule over or above the Scriptures , then that the Scriptures should be the only or highest Rule to Heaven ( as sometimes they pretend ) for that Bibles are had at a great deal cheaper Rate , then their Trade of Preaching can be had : But then for their own Ends on the other Ha●…d , they can ( in plain self-Contradiction ) cry up the Scriptures , as the only 〈◊〉 Rule to Heaven , when their Design is to divert Peoples Minds from depending upon the DIVINE LIGHT and IMMEDIATE TEACHING OF GOD WITHIN ( for Life and Salvation ) Seeing , that it 's evident , they can more easily avoid the Scriptures Infallibility ( for their own Ends , that they may be Masters , both over the Scriptures and Mens Faith , for their Lucre and Gain ) than they can get any of the Children of Light to assist their Trade ( or any to maintain them therein ) who are turned from Darkness to the LIGHT , to wait upon the Immediate Teachings of God ; it 's easier for them to evade or dispense with the Scripture's Infallibility , then to hinder the true LIGHT WITHIN from shining in Mens Hearts ; for that is impossible for them . Again , the Scriptures were not the Presbyterians sole Rule of Faith and Practice , when they set forth their 〈◊〉 , Confession of Faith , and Scotch Covenant , agreed upon by the Kirk of Scotland and the Assembly at Westminster , which was of no small Charge : It 's easie to see , that their sole Rule ( as they have pretended the Scriptures to be ) they can easily dispense with , add to , or vary from , for their own Ends at their Pleasure , both in Doctrine , Discipline and Practice , as might be instanced , not only for their unscriptural Sprinkling Infants , but in many othe●… Traditions and Babylonish Reliques . S. Scandret ' s Sense about the Points in Controversie examined . S. S. BY the Light in every Man understand — not the Light of the Gospel , 2 Cor. 4. 4. lest the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine , &c. p. 1 , 2. Answ. The God of the World hath blinded the Minds of them that are lost , lest the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine unto them , 2 Cor. 4. 4. And this Man's Work is of the same Tendency , viz. to blind Peoples Minds , which implies , that the Light of Christ Jesus ( which is Gospel-Light ) is given to all ; but the Minds blinded by Satan oppose it . The Subject which Satan works upon and prevails with , is their Minds , not the Light. S. S. Mark , 't is not said the Light , but ( God ) hath shined , p. 7. Answ. A frivolous Exception ; Can there be such divine Shi●…ing without his divine Light ? God hath shined in our Hearts , &c. and God is Light. S. S. ( Upon Phil. 3. 16. ) The Saints were to walk according to their several Attainments what they had got out of the Scri●…s , by the same Rule , &c. p. 9. Answ. What Scriptures ? They were to walk in the Spirit , which directed their Minds to God ; that he might reveal his Mind to them : And here was the same Rule , the same Thing , the same Principle ; their several Attainments being according to their spiritual Growth in the Light. Was the Rule mentioned in 2 Cor. 10. 13. and Gal. 6. 15 , 16. to be got out of the Bible ? See this Man's gross Ignorance . S. S. Innocency , man's perfect Light must not be the whol●… his Rule , p. 11. Answ. A gross Error . God was then his perfect Light and Rule in his Teachings ; and is not that Light which is perfect whole ? S. S. We need no infallible Spirit to help to discern the Counsels of Light and Darkness in Scripture ; for all there comes from God , p. 27. Answ. He is not told this by an infallible Spirit ; for many Counsels of Darkness , Serpent and wicked Men , both against God , Christ and his People , are recorded in Scripture . And it is the Spirit of Christ which is Infallible , that truly opens and reveals the Truths in Scripture , to the Understanding of the Children of Light. S. S. The Spirit dwelling in all Believers , is sometimes a sweet Mo●…r to Duty , though no indwelling Spirit , p. 38. 〈◊〉 . Gross Ignorance and Confusion ; What! no indwelling Spirit , and yet dwelling in all Believers ? Did you ever hear such Doctrine before ? S. S. God's Commands cease not to be God's Commands ; either because the Spirit doth not within put Men on to obey them , &c. p. 38. Answ. A gross Inference against the Spirit ; for the Spirit of Truth leads true Believers into all Truth , from which no true and necessary Commands can be excluded ; unless he will say , some of them are no Truths S. S. We are to obey them , though the Spirit 〈◊〉 puts not on — otherwise , some wicked men in living contr●…ry to the Scriptures , do not sin , cannot be dam●…ed for so doing ; for s●…e have sinned away the Motions and Strivings of 〈◊〉 Spirit , p. 8. Answ. What will become of such poor ●…eople , that are fed with such Chaff and Darknes , as this ? And what is the Tendency of it , but to set 〈◊〉 on , to work in their own Wills , to set up their own 〈◊〉 , without the Movings of the Spirit of God ? ( And what will that profit them ) though without this Spiri●… , they are carnal and selfish in all their Acti●…gs and can●…t truly obey : Nor can wicked Men ( who have 〈◊〉 away its Strivings ) escape Damnation , withall S. S. ●…is pressing them to obey the Scriptures , wi●…hout the Guidance of the Spirit ; for without him we can do 〈◊〉 ; but all things through him that strengthneth us . S. S. Because a Thing is written in the Scripture , are we to do it ? — I will in God's Assistance , rowl my self , and act Faith on God and Christ , because I see the sweet Words in the Scriptures , &c. p. 38. Answ. This is a Faith of his own making , a Will acting ( that is not grounded upon the Spirit of God , and its Perswasion within ) an imperfect Imitation of the ●…etter wi●…hout the Spirit ; for he hath not an infallible Spirit o●… discerning between the Counsels of Light and Darkness in the Heart ; nor to discern those few Truths it doth reveal ( as he confesseth , p. 27. and 31 ) So that this Book of his against us , pr●…ceeded from his Darkness and fallible Spirit . But if God s Spirit teach us by the Works of Creation , and the Light in every Man propounding the Creation to be considered ; and he helps us to conclude a God thence , that he is to be worshiped , &c. for in him we live , move and have our being , as is largely confessed , p. 53. Then there is a twofold Testimony afforded of God to Mankind , viz. Immediate and Mediate , as namely , First , his Spirit or Light. 2dly , His Works of Creation , thr●…gh which his Light gives Men to consider and see God and his eternal Power , Rom. 1. and to worship him : And this Light and Works are ( and do preach forth the Power of God and his Wisdom ) where the Scriptures are not ; And therefore God affords a Sufficiency , even to the Heathens , both of Light inward , and Evidence outward , of his Power , &c. They that have the holy Scriptures in the Bible may thank God for those good Testimonies in them , as his Light within opens their Understandings in them to the Right Use of them ; A●…d they that have not the Bible , have the Book of the Creation to read in ; and the Light within to open it , and to read and understand a Deity and Divine Power through all and over all . And they that are born Deaf and Blind shall not be therefore damned ; God having afforded an invisible sufficient Light to save , being obeyed , to leave them without excufe , being disobeyed . And if by the use of Reason , the Spirit of God teacheth the Heathen moral Duties , as in p. 54. which Duties as he explains , are to love and worship God , and to love our Neighbours as our selves ; then have the Heathen , First , A supernatural and Divine Light , to wit , that of the Spirit . 2dly , His Spirit with the Teaching and Reason of it in that degree it is in them , is a Rule of Life to them that have not Scriptures ( who obey it ) And this confutes and overthrows the greater part of S. S. his Book or bundle of Confusion . S. S. Most falsly obtruds upon R. Ludgater this Concession , viz. That the Will of God , as much of it as is revealed by the Light in every man without the help of Scripture , is not the only Rule to Heaven , p. 23. And this ( sayes S. S. ) fetcht out of the very Heart-Blood of Quakery , Epist. This is a gross Abuse and Lye ; for R. L. hath a better Knowledge and Esteem of the Light of Christ in every man , and its own Sufficiency to guide the Obedient to Heaven : In him was Life , & the Life was the Light of Men , Job . 1. 4. This Life and Light of Christ being divine is therefore a sufficient Rule . Also S. S. hath abused G. W. in several places , perverting his Words , and setting down words in G. W's Name , which he never wrote nor spoak ; and in particular these words about Christ's Coming , viz. He hath tarried above Sixteen Hundred Years , p. 86. quoting Divin . of Christ , p. 49. and then to back this Abuse , and to lay Judgment 〈◊〉 G. W. brings those Scriptures , 2 Pet. 2. 3 , 4. and Mat. 4. 48. Whereas G. W's Words were quite contrary ; ●…nfessing both to Christ's Outward and Inward Coming , which ●…is Disciples did not put afar off , as you do ; it being above ●…ixteen Hundred Years since they both waited for and receiv'd ●…is Coming . Here is no such Word as that , He hath tarried so long ; we refer the Reader to the Book and Page before mentioned to see S. S's Abuse in this ; as also many more might be instanced , where instead of answering , he hath wronged and belyed our Words and Books . S. S. in p. 32. saith , though the Counsels of God's Spirit in Believers Hearts , be IN themselves as certainly the Truth of God as are his Counsels in the Scriptures ; yet are they not to Believers so certainly the Truths of God. Answ. What 's this but to tell us that the Scriptures can better ascertain us of the Truths therein then the Spirit that first gave forth those Truths ? ( or that the Spirit of Christ is Insufficient assuredly to manifest his own Counsels to Believers ) which is contrary to Christ's own Testimony , He shall guide you into all Truth ; He shall abide with you forever ; and the Sons of God are led by his Spirit ; and hereby know we that we dwell in him and be in us , because he hath given us of his Spirit , 1 Joh. 4. 13. Chap. 3. 24. Therefore this Spirit is our certain and highest Rule . And as to his pudder he makes about Water-Baptism , 't is very confused and silly ( as at the Dispute ) not plainly asserting whom he would have the Subjects of it , whether Infants or Believers ; yet brings some of the Anabaptists Arguments , though we still suppose he intends Infants , but durst not tell us whether it be his Practice now . So see what a Laborynth and Loss his Work tends to bring People to ; neither plainly telling them the Subjects , nor showing who are the Ministers of this imposed Water-Baptism , whether himself , or such as he , or who ? and yet injoyns it as a Means of Sanctification , a Means of Salvation , which we do not believe . As also he explains not his terms of the Lord's Supper , what he means by the Lord's Supper ; whether the Shaddow or the Mystery , and what is his own Practice therein ? whether he ministers Bread and Wine as a Figure , or the Substance ? And whether the Mystery or thing signified , be attained by any in this Life ? This is unanswer'd : Nor whether Shaddows be essential to the Gospel Dispensation . Concerning Justification . He hath in some degree granted to truth , that the word [ Justifie ] the Scripture sometimes useth it , to signifie [ to make Just ] by inherent Holiness , or [ to Sanctifie ] Tit. 3. 5 , 7. He saved us by the Washing of Regeneration , that being justified , &c. Herein he hath assented more to Truth , then many of his ●…rethren ; but 't is much contradicted again in his handling the matter of Imputation of Adam's Sin to those that are not Partakers of it ; and so of Christ's Obedience , p. 96. As if Adam's Sin and Christ's Righteousness , were so imputed to them who partake not of them : This we cannot own , and hath been often answered in our Books ; and much we have against this his Sense of Imputation , as also against their Opinion about personal Election and Reprobation , and the Cruelty , Partiality , and ill Consequence of the Presbyters Opinion therein ; And against S. S. his shallow and absurd managing the matter , whose manifest Contradictions were long since published , which we do not understand that he hath made any Publick Essay to reconcile : also his work about the Scriptures , Baptism and the Supper , are more particularly and fully answered elsewhere , which there hath not been ( for some time ) an oppo●…tunity to publish . CHAP. II. About JUSTIFICATION and IMPUTATION . S. S's Quest. WHether we are justified by the Righteousness of Christ imputed ? The Question would better reach the Controversie , as thus stated , viz. Whether Impure ( that is , unsanctified Persons ) while 〈◊〉 , be justified by the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness ? [ Thus I stated the Question at first , which S. S. evaded with this , viz. Whether Justification be by the Works of the Law , 〈◊〉 by the Righteousness of Christ through Faith ? No●…●…enying the former , and granting the latter , this Question will not find out the Controversie ; but rather ] Whether Christ's Righteousness be imputed unto Persons in a disobedient , unsanctisied or unconverted State ? Or , Whether Christ's Righteousness be imputed of Co●… to Persons who are not in some degree really and inwardly Partakers thereof , by the inward Work of Christ , through Faith and Sanct●…fication ? I am for the real Participation of Christ's Righteousness , and against a false Imputation of it ; but con●…ss the true Imputation of Christ's Everlasting Righteousness to true Believers , who inwardly are Partakers o●… his Work , Nature and Image , which the true Seed of Abraham in all Ages were Partakers of , whose Faith was reckoned to him ( as the Faith of all his Seed is to them ) for Righ●…ness , which was and is both real and inward . By [ the Righteousness of Christ ] I understand his everlasting Righteousness , Holiness , Faith , Nature and I●…ge , from whence his active & passive Obedience ( as in his own Person ) sprung , and that true Believers , as Partakers thereof , are accounted or esteemed of in the Sight of God , being Partakers of his Holiness , divine Nature , and renewed therein to God ; in this they are pr●…sented unto God in an absolute j●…stified State : and S. S. proceeds thus , viz. By the Word [ Justifie ] the Scripture sometimes ( but very rarely ) useth it to signifie , to make Just by inherent Holiness , or to sanctifie , Tit. 3. 5 , 7. He hath saved us by the Washing of Regeneration , that being justified , &c p. 89. Reader , Be pleased to take Notice here , how far this his Concession is to Justification in the Reality of it , as springing from the inherent Holiness or Image of Christ in a Soul ; and how this is effected through Sanctification ( and it must be from hence that the real Imputation ariseth ) and note , how herein he hath granted to the Truth of our Principle ( in the first Part ) though much of his ●…ollowing Work be contradictory to this , as will appear ; for this is to make Just by inherent Holiness , or to sanctifie ; the other is , to impute , or reckon Guilty or fallen Creatures Just : So that this Man's Imputation of Christ's Obedience , must be opposed to the real and inward Participation thereof . S. S. [ Justifie ] It is used in Contradiction to Sanctification , 1 Cor. 6. 11. but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified , &c. an●… 〈◊〉 mostly , we are therefore to take it in this latter Se I se , p. 89. Though [ Justifie ] be often in Scripture taken to declare Just or Righteous , or to accept of , as such ( as well as to make Just ) in which Sease there is a Distinction ( not a Contradiction nor Severation ) between Sanctification & Justification ; yet God never declares , accounts or accepts any as Just and Righteous , but such as are really ( in some Degree Partakers of his Righteousness in themselves , by a living Faith and Subjection to him ( there being also a time of justifying before Men are justified ) for 't is they who are of Faith that are of Abraham , whose Faith or believing God ( wherein was Obedience ) was imputed or reckoned to him for Righteousness : And true and living Faith is of the same Na●…ure still , and so is the real Imputation , which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God , and is evidenced unto the Soul by his S●…irit : 〈◊〉 the Truth o●… this is further confirm'd by the very Proof which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cit●…d be●…ore , which proves that Sanctification is previous to and joyned with Justification ; and that 't is such a 〈◊〉 ●…shed and sanctified that are justified , and t●…t in the Name of the Lord Jesus , and by the Spirit of our God , 〈◊〉 Cor. 6. 11. It was not the Unrighteous , Unconverted or Unsanctified that were justified , but the Sanctified ; and therefore it is not the guilty and unsanctified Perso●…s , applying or imputing to themselves Christ's active and passive Obedience ( as performed in his Person ) that will justifie , make or declare them just in the Sight of God ; out the inward Operation of his Spirit , sanctifying , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 changing them from Sin and Impurity , into the Image , Name and Nature of Christ Jesus , that A S they have born the Image of the Earthly , S O they must bear the Image of the Heavenly which must be in Reality . S. S. [ Justifie ] Signifies , to declare just , Luk. 7. 35. Wisdom is justified , &c. Psal. 51. 4. that thou mayst be justified , &c. to absolve , acquit or discharge , Rom. 8. 33. It is God that Justifieth , &c. Proverbs 17. 15. He that Justifieth the Wicked , and he that Condemneth the Just , are both Abomination to the Lord , p. 89. He sayes true in the Definition of the term [ Justifie ] but whether his after Application or Imputation thereof ( as to the Creature ) doth agree therewith , or not , will further appear ; However , his Definitions ( being compared ) intimate thus much to us , that to justifie , is both to make Just by Inherent Holiness , and to declare that Thing or Person Just which is really so ; as Wisdom is declared Just of her Children , God is declared Just when he speaketh , who Justifieth his Elect , acquitteth and declareth them Just , to whom there is no Condemnation , Rom. 8. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. and ver . 33. But on the other hand ( as conc●…rring with the Definition before ) He that Justifieth the W●…cked , that is , he that declareth the Wicked Just , and so the Unrighteous Righteous , the Impure Pure , absolveth or acquitteth the Wicked or wicked Workers ( while such ) and he that condem●…s the Just , are both Abomination to the Lord. And then the next t●…g to be enquired is , Whom doth S. S. declare Just , and in what State are the Persons , whom be Just●…s , declares Just , absolved , acquitted or pardoned ( as his terms are ) ? S. S. This Acquittance to us fallen Cre●…es , is a propor Absolution or Pardon ; we are guilty in our own 〈◊〉 — p. 91. Now Moses , or the Law of God , is the true Accuser of everyone of us , Joh. 5. 45. There is one that accuseth you , even Moses in whom ye trust ; the only Defence is , though I am guil●…y , yet Satisfaction hath been made for that Guilt , p. 90. [ Yet ] God pronounceth us Just , and absolves us , for the Satisfaction or Righteousness of Christ , p. 91. Rep. Without Faith 't is Impossible to please God ; and without Holiness none shall see him to their Justification or Comfort : our Pardon and Absolution from Sins past , must be received in our Rising out of Sin and the Fall , and by the Power of God Renewing us into the Image of God , through a Living Faith in Christ , Repentance , or a real Change of the Mind and Heart from Evil ; and so by a true Separation of the Creature from Enmity and wicked Works , wherein men are Enemies in their Minds ; for in that state , while you stand as fallen Creatures , guilty in your own Persons , Enemies in your Minds by wicked Works ( and in the State of those unbelieving Jews , whom Moses accused , as before confessed ) God doth neither pronounce you Just , absolve nor pardon you ( in that Condition ) And while you so pronounce or declare your selves Just and acquitted , you are but Justifying the Wicked , wherein you are an Abomination to the Lord , as is proved before . It 's true , he that confesseth and forsakes Sin finds Mercy upon true Repentance and Conversion ; the Creature obtains Remission of Sins past , and that through Faith in the Name and Blood of Christ , which hath a secret Influence upon the Soul , and sprinkleth the Conscience from dead Works , in order , both to Pardon and Justification , upon the Act of living and true Faith in Christ ; yea , Christ as the one Off●…ing , Sacrifice and Propitiation for the Sins of the whole World , which puts away Sin , consecrates , makes true Believers holy , and declares God's Coming near to Man in Kindness ; I say , Christ as thus considered , hath an inward Influence and Effect upon the believing and penitent Soul , to bring it near to God , and render it capable of receiving Mercy and Forgiveness , and of seeling the Pardon and Peace , upon true Conversion from Sin and Evil ; yea , I further testifie , that God looks upon ( and hath a regard to ) every Appearance and Effect of his Grace and Spirit in the Heart & Soul , even from the very first Act of Faith , springing up and budding of Grace to the highest Growth thereof ; even , from Davids Repentance to his Songs of Deliverance ; from Niniveh's believing God and repenting to his Peoples walking in Newness of Life ; from the Prodigal's Return to his Father's House , to his abiding therein ; yea , the first Appearance of true Tenderness , Remiss and Brokeness of Heart , or godly Sorrow for Sin , the Lord hath Regard to the Creature for the sake thereof , still from the Respect he naturally hath to his Grace and Spirit , that works these in Man : To this Man will I look , saith the Lord , that is poor and of a contrite Spirit , and trembleth at my Word . The Work of Christ or Grace in the Heart , from the Beginning to the Accomplishment thereof , is acceptable to God , because of the Dignity of him that worketh it , and not from any Dignity or Worth of the Creatures own ; but only the Creature is accepted , as in Christ ; we are accepted in the Beloved , and it is for Christ's sake that God forgiveth us , and not meerly for our own : Howbeit , it is so far as we are related to Christ , and have an Interest in him and his Righteousness , by a living Faith , that God owns and looks upon us in a Way of Acceptance ; he respects his own Image in us , and doth not justifie , acquit or accept Men only upon the Account of Christ's Sufferings and Acts of Obedience , as done in his Person ; for if he did , then were all Men justified for whom Christ dyed , and that was the whole World , all Men in general ; he tasted Death for every Man ; yet his Obedience and Sufferings in the Flesh had a good End and Effect ( be being through all , both acceptable and prevailing with God , for the good of Mankind ; & we must needs partake of the Benefit and Effects thereof in our Souls , so far as they have an Influence upon us , by the Life and Power of Christ , considering the Travel of his Soul , through all his Sufferings ( which were inward as well as outward ) his Soul being made an Offering for Sin , and his making Intercession ●…or the Transgressors , was , that Men might be influenced with a real Sence and Sorrow under their own Sin , and be made sensible of Christ's Sufferings and Travil of Soul , and know the Fellowship thereof , and so be made conformable to his Death , through the Operation of his Spirit and Life in them , as that they may be raised up in the Likeness of Christ's Resurrection , in Dominion and Triumph over Sin and Death , and not plead Christ's Satisfaction and Righteousness ( only as in himself ) in their ●…ead , to absolve or justifie the Guilty , whom God will not clear , nor acquit the Wicked : Christ's Righteousness will not excuse any in Unrighteousness ; for he was a holy Example , as well as a Sacrifice and Propitiation ; and he that saith , he hath an Interest in Christ's Rightcousness , or that he abideth in Christ ought to walk as he walked . Now the Question is not , Whether Christ was a most Satisfactory Sacrifice , or well-pleasing to the Father ? for that is undeniable : He was the Delight of the Father's Soul , who gave himself for us an Offering and a Sacrifice to God , for a sweet smelling Savour , Ephes. 5. 1 , 2. But , In what State and Condition are we acquitted , pardoned and justified of God , and in what Nature ; whether as fallen , sinful , guilty Persons in our selves , and that meerly by the Sufferings of Christ in his own Person ( which were finite ) without respect to his Work in us ? Or , as Converted , Believers , Sanctified , Obedient , new Creatures in Christ , accepted ( and so justified ) in his own Righteousness , as real Partakers thereof ? The latter is the Justification and Imputation which I plead for , and not the former ; I would not have Men flatter themselves , nor one another , in Sin and Darkness , with Christ having done all , paid all , satisfied God for all Sins past , present and to come , and that in their stead ; nor to think themselves thereby absolved , acquitted and justified in their Sins and fallen Estate ; for such Doctrine hath stre●…gthned the Hands of many Evil-Doers , and made many Hypocrites , who are yet to undergoe a Sence of the Judgments and Terrors of the Lord , and to know Repentance from deadWorks , before they receive Forgiveness of Sins past , or Jesus Christ , as the Attonement or their Peace ; for he came in the Likeness of sinful Flesh , that he might condemn Sin in the Flesh , before Man be justified from it . If the Question be , What is it that gives us Interest in Christ's Righteousness ? Or upon which it is imputed or reckoned to us ? He answers , Our Faith , Rom. 10. 10. If the Question be , What will evidence our Faith to be living and sound Faith ? He answers , Our sincere Obedience to the Law , Jam. 2. 24. You see then , how that by Works a man is Justified , and not by Faith only ; we are Justified by Works , as Evidencing our Faith , living by Faith , as giving Interest in Christ's Righteousness by Christ's Righteousness , as constituting ●…s Righteous , &c. p. 91. The Reader may see , I take the better part of his Confession , as well as the worse ; He hath truly confest here , 1st , That it is our living and sound Faith that gives us Interest in Christ's Righteousness , and upon which it is imputed or reckoned to us . 2dly , That our sincere Obedience to the Law ( or Works of Faith ) doth evidence our Faith to be living and sound ; from whence it follows , that none are Justified , but who are in a living and sound Faith in Christ , and sincere Obedience to his Law : Therefore Justification was not effected or compleated without us by Christ's Sufferings ( or Death ) in his Person ; for he dyed for our Sins , but rose again for our Justification , which is effected even in bringing forth in us the Answer of a Good Conscience ; nor art thou either Justified or pronounced Righteous in the Sight of God ( whoever thou art ) who art a guilty Person , a fallen Creature , accused by Moses , unsanctified , unregenerate , Impure ; see how manifestly the Man hath contradicted himself in these Passages , one while in Justifying the guilty ( or disobedient ) another while , only those who have a living and sound Faith , and are sincerely obedient , who thereby are interested in Christ's Righteousness ; With this I agree , but not with the other , which declares the Guilty and Disobedient , Just or Innocent , p. 91. and what then ? must the Guilt be charged upon Christ , who offered up himself a Lamb without Spot to God , and was a sweet smelling Savour to him , of whom all our Obedience ought to savour , that by him we may Offer up living Sacrifices unto God ? Both we and our Actions must Savour of his Unction , and not of Pollution , Sin or Guilt , if we be Justified or accepted in the Beloved : Whereas he accuseth G. W. with teaching Justification by Faith in Christ , and the Works that follow Faith , without Christ's Righteousness Imputed , p. 91. The End of his Charge is false [ without Christ's Righteousness imputed ] are his own Words , and Forgery against me , and not mine ; for I have both owned and confessed the Real and Scriptural Sense of Imputation in the 65th Page of Divin . of Christ. ( first Part ) and several other Places therein : The blessed Man's partaking of Christ's Righteousness through Faith ; and that Justification is in the Righteousness of Christ , by Faith in him ; and that this true and living Faith and the Righteousness of it , is reckoned ( or imputed ) to the true Believer ; yet we do not grant , that Sinners or polluted Persons in that State , are cloathed with this Righteousness , or that it is imputed to them , as theirs , whilst they are out of it : These were my Words , which clear me from his Charge ; although he adds thereto , that I say , Faith in Christ , and Works that follow , without any mention of Christ's holy Life and Sufferings , p. 92. which is false again , and the contrary may be often seen in my said Book , Divin . of Christ. For , 1st , Living Faith in Christ cannot be without the Participation of Christ's holy Life , Vertue and Effects of his Sufferings and Blood , which sprinkleth the Conscience , cleanseth from Sin , &c. 2dly , We are by Faith in him spiritually influenced with a Sence of his Sufferings , Travil of Soul and Fruit of his Intercession , therein , I bear in my Body the Dying of the Lord Jesus , that the Life also of Jesus may be manifest in my mortal Flesh. 3dly , In spiritually eating of his Flesh , and drinking of his Blood , we receive of his Life in us , do come to live to God in his Love and Favour ; and so we partake of Christ AS the one Offering , Sacrifice or Propitiation , that makes holy , in whom God comes near to us in Mercy , and we to him in a holy Life ; and this is the one Offering , by which he hath forever perfected them that are sanctified , whereof the Holy Ghost beareth Witness unto us , Heb. 10. 15. Object . You have not from the Beginning of your Life to the End perfectly obeyed the Law ; what have you to say why you should not bear the Curse ? p. 92. Answ. This is an impertinent Objection , and unsutable for him that does not believe perfect Obedience to Christ attainable in any Part of our Life , either Beginning or latter End●… But God will not bring this Charge against them , whose Sins are forgiven and blotted out , to be remembred no more in the new Covenant , who since they have received Remission and Justification of Life , have the Answer and Testimony of a good Consciense to plead , which gives Boldness in the Day of Judgment , the Heart being sprinkled from an evil Conscience , there is a drawing near to God in full Assurance of Faith , if our Heart condemn us not , then have we Considence towards God : Howbeit , Upon the Charge before ( as S. S. his chief Objection ) depends much of his Work , and what he pleads to this , as his only Defence , is , Christ's Holy Life and Sufferings , Obedience to the Death , &c. not Sanctification , nor Christ's Righteousness ( or Life ) inherent in us , or the Answer of a Good Conscience , &c. And why so ? why thinks he , cannot this acquit us or render us acceptable to God ? S. S. In justifying God doth judge us by the Law , though by the Gospel also ; To be Righteous in a legal Sense , is , to be invested with a sinless Righteousness , from the Beginning of Life to the End thereof ; this the Law requires , it doth require Perfection , not only in the End of our Lives , but in the middle also , and in the Beginning , p. 92 , 93. But the Breach of this ( sayes he ) will be the Accusation or Charge that the Law ( or Justice ) will bring against us at the Day of Judgment , p. 50. Rep. The Man runs upon a Mistake , and thereupon makes his Apologies and Defence ; for there will be no Occasion for God , to bring this Charge against his Elect ( or those whom he hath justified ) at the Day of Judgment ; for , 1st , Against a Righteous Man there is no Law ; neither doth the Gospel judge such as Transgressors all their Dayes , as is vainly imagined : And how should you be justified , while you are judged both by Law and Gospel ? Doth not the Gospel acquit and clear such as ( in the Faith ) receive it , from the Condemnation of the Law , that being justified by Faith , they may have Peace with God ? 2dly , They who are pardoned of Sins past , and justified by Christ from all those things , from which they could not be justified by the Law of Moses , are received into a Covenant of ●…ace , Mercy , Forgiveness , Love , Peace and Union with God ( for such is the new Covenant , wherein God will remember their Iniquities no more . 3dly , They who are thus justified and received into Covenant with God , have passed from Death to Life , from Condemnation to J●…stification , through the Law are become dead unto the Law , that Christ might live in them ; and the Life they live , is by the Faith of the Son of God , which Faith purifies the Heart , and the Mystery of it is held in a pure Conscience . 4thly , The Gospel is preached to them that are dead ( viz. in Sin ) That they might be judged as Men in the Flesh , but justified after God in the Spirit . And God's sending his Son in the Likeness of sinful Flesh was , that Sin might be condemned in the Flesh , that the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us , who walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit , Rom. 8. Therefore Justice will not ( at the Day of Judgment ) charge us with Transgression and Imperfection from the beginning of Life to the End. They that are come into Covenant with God ( who therein are in a Justified Condition ) have this to plead , We have known and believed the Love that God hath to us ; God is Love , and he that dwelleth in Love dwelleth in God , and God in him ; Herein is our Love made Perfect , that we may have Boldness in the Day of Judgment , because as he is so are we in this World , 1 Joh. 4. 16 , 17. And doth not this perfect Love and Conformity to his Image ( which gives this Boldness in the day of Judgment ) spring from the Life and Work of God in us ? And is not this our Love ( or such Conformity ) inherent in us , as we dwell in God , and God in us ? 6thly , What the Law saith , it is to those that are under the Law ; but we ( true Believers ) are not under the Law , but under Grace ; and shall we Sin because we are no more under the Law but under Grace ? God forbid ; for how can we that are dead unto Sin , live any longer therein ? But , whereas this Opposer's main Charge is , You have not from the beginning of life to the end perfectly obeyed the Law , or been invested with a sinless Righteousness , Perfection , &c. This is not stated according to his own Doctrine and Principle , which concludes , that there is no such Perfection attainable in this Life , either in the beginning , middle , or end of Life , so that according to his own Doctrine he should have stated it thus ( and it may justly be charged upon these Sin-Pleasers ) viz. You have lived in Sin and Disobedience all your Life long , and have preached to others , that perfect Freedom from Sin and Corruption is not attainable in this Life by any , either in the beginning or end of Life ; but have preached many into more Loosness & Liberty of Sinning by telling them , that 't is God's good Pleasure not to remove the being of Sin in this Life , but to suffer Corruptions to remain in his Saints to keep them humble : so no part of your Life is pure or clean , but corrupt & sinful : What have you to plead or say for yo●…r selves , why Sentence of Damnation ●…hould not pass upon you ? The Sin-pleasi●…g Presbyter pl●…ads , viz. Christ's holy Life and Suffering , is our only Defence or Apology , against this Charge , p. 9●… . Though I am Guilty , yet S●…tisfication hath been made for that Guilt ; because therefore the same Fault cannot b●… twice 〈◊〉 after Satisfaction ; t is as if it never were : This is the only way of Defence we have at God's Tribunal , p. 90. Christ s Sufferings are they for which God will Justifie us , they have fully satisfied Justice for our Sins ; We may be confident they will secure us from Condemnation , it being agai●…st Justice to punish those Sinners a second time that h●…ve been punished to the full already , p. 106. To all which it may be justly replyed , and reflected upon you who are thus pleading and maki●…g your Apology in your Si●…s & unholy Life : This will not cover nor excuse you in your Sins , if you live and dye in Sin ; your Mouths will be stopt , you will not be able to plead Christ's holy Life and Sufferings to resc●… you from Condemnation ; except you Repent , ye shall all likewise perish : What Influence or Effect hath Christ s holy Life or S●…fferings upon you , only you pro●…ess and plead them ? So it may be said , Christ was ever Holy ; but you were never holy : Christ was a Sacrifice of a sweet smelling Savour to God , which neither your Life nor Actions seem any thing of ; but contrary wise are a b●…d Savour to him : Christ was an holy and perfect Example which you never followed , no●… ever intend to follow so long as you live ( for you do not believe it is attainable ) Christ came to condemn Sin in the Flesh , which you keep alive ( and plead for ) in your Flesh as long as you live : Christ also came to fulfil the Righteousness of the Law in us who walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; but you do not own nor believe its-Fulfilling to be in your Persons , but only in Christ's Person : Christ's Blood was not only for R●…mission of Sins past , but is to cleanse from all Sin , & to purge the Conscience , sanctify , &c. This you reject , and in your Sins and defiled Con●…iences trample the Blood of the Covenant under Foor , and add to the Sufferings of Christ and the Sin of his Persecutors , by adding Sin unto Sin , and so grieving his Spirit all your dayes , and pleading his Holy Life for your Defence therein ; and so the Guilt of his Blood will be charged upon you in the day of Judgment , if you repent not . And surther you 〈◊〉 charge divine Justice with punishing your Sins to the ●…ull in Christ , or punishing him that was ever Innoc●… to the full sor your Sins ; so that you count it against Justice to punish your Sins again i●… you , though you live and dye in them ; and yet you think it an excellent piece of Justice to punish the Innocent to the full for the Guilty : But your Mistake herein is g●…oss , as will further appear , and you will not be acquitted , nor clear'd hereby ; This will not prove you invested with Christ's everlasting Righteousness ; nor will this cover your own Filthy Rags , or hide your Shame . A●…d while you think that you are secured in your Sins from the Stroke of Justice , as having been fully executed and that by way of Revenge upon the Innocent Son of God , in punishing your Sins to the full upon him ; I say , while vou state this as the Nature of the Satisfaction by Christ's Suffering in your stead , the whole World may as well acquit it self from Punishment thereby as you ; for he dyed for all , and is the Propitiation for the Sins of the whole World ; and therefore if this must be lookt upon as the full Punishment of Sin laid upon Christ , and that the Sin cannot be twice punished after such Satisfaction , this may make a merry World in Sin ; once punisht to the full in Christ , never to be punished again upon the Offender , which the Law directly takes hold of . Oh Sinner's soothing Doctrine ! to make the wicked World rejoyce in a Sinful State , and say , Oh Admirable Justice , that was pleased thus to Revenge thy self upon an Innocent Man , that never sinned , & to punish our Sin to the full upon him ! O transcendent Mercy , that hast found out this expedient , that we might be fully acquitted , pardoned and discharged from the Penalty that is Just and due to us for all our Sins past , present , and to come ! Oh! what Glad Tidings are these to the Hypocrites and Drunkards ? &c. And how merry they are apt to be in their Sins , upon their Ministers Proclaiming such an Act of Indemnity of all Offences and Injuries past , present and to come , not only against their Neighbours , but against God himself . But if it be objected , That without Sound Faith ( which is a working Faith men have not an Interest in Christ's Obedience , Righteousness or Satisfaction ; nor are we Invested with any thing for which God should pronounce us Righteous , &c. p. 93. 94. From hence it follows then , that if they remain in Unbelief , they have no Interest in Christ's Righteousness or Satisfaction ; and then the Consequence is , Christ did not make Satisfaction in our stead ( nor was punished ) for the Sin of Unbelief nor for the Effects of Unbelief , to acquit us therein ; for what Sins then was he punished to the full ? But above all it appears wonderful strange , that God could not remit or pardon Offences past , without such a severe Payment and Satisfaction ( as is implyed ) because ( as some say ) he dispenseth not with the Act of Law : If he could so punish his Innocent Son to the full , who never offended , was not this a Dispensing with the Act of Law , when the Law was made for Offenders , and added because of Transgression , and to punish such ? for it was not made to punish an Innocent or Righteous Man , against whom there is no Law. But if to pardon former Transgression upon true Repentance , and to save Man from Sin and Wrath , be not inconsistent with the infinite Goodness and Mercy of God himself ; and to be both a just God and a Saviour , were not Inconsistent ; then his divine Justice consisted not in such Severity , as to obliege him from shewing Mercy witho●…t such a rigid Satisfaction and Payment , as that of punishing his Son to the full , and pouring out his Wrath upon him , for the Sin of Mankind : Whereas , where Remission of Sin is obtained , there is both a Relaxation of the Severity of the Law , and a manifest Effect of the Propitiation , or sweet smelling Sacrifice of Christ , as Mediator and Advocate , and not as the Object of Wrath , Revenge and full Punishment from God , that is due to Sin , and that to acquit the Sinners continuing therein ; And his not sparing his own Son , but delivering him up for us all , and his being made a Curse for us , was neither equivalent to that of Eternal Death , Curse and Damnation , which Sin and Sinners have deserved ; nor doth it absolve Man from his Obedience to the Law of the new Covenant or Spirit of Life in Christ , though it was for a Relaxation of the Law , as to the Bondage thereof , and in order to abolish and end the first Covenant and the Curse thereof ; yet not to pardon or justifie Men in Sin against the second : Nor is it any Loosening , but a Reinforcing of the Terms thereof ; for he took away the first , that he might establish the second ; he removed , ●…nd ended the Shadows , that he might exalt the Substance that was vailed under them ; he blotted out the Hand-writing of Ordinances , & nailed it to his Cross , that he might reinforce the Law of the new Covenant written in the Heart , that we might not be without Law to God but under the Law to Christ : He did both fulfil the Law in hs Person , and doth fulfil the Righteousness of it in them that walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; he did not only remove the shadowy Part of the Law and the Curse thereof , through his Suffering and Sacrifice ; but also , he actually delive●…s the Soul from the inward Terrors , Condemnation and Wrath of the Law ( upon true Repentance and Contrition of Heart ) in Remission and Pardon , through Faith in his Blood , being virtuously felt , and efficaciously evidenced by his holy Spirit unto the Soul that hath a Part in Christ , as the Propitiation for the Sins of the whole World , whose Blood bears Record in the Earth , agrees in one with the Spirit , sprinkleth the Consci●…nce from dead Works , speaketh forth Mercy and Forgiveness , better things then that of Abel : Besides , Christ was as well exemplary , as propiriat●…ry or gracious in his Sufferings , which had both a blessed Accep●…ance and Eff●…ct with G●…d , and a spiritual Influence upon them that follow him in Spirit , further then the Historical Faith and Relation thereof , as he said , If any Man serve me , let him follow me , and where I am , there shall also my Servant b●… J●…h . 12. 26. And thus far is his Example spiritually fulfilled in them that follow him , as namely , * Jesus Christ was outwardly c●…rcumcised , baptized , crucified , put to Death ( as concerning the Flesh ) buried , quickned , raised up by the Power of God , &c. His Followers or Servants are spiritually circumcised , baptized into his Death , or crucified with him , buried with him by Baptism ( as Partakers of the Fellowship of his Suff●…rings ) quickned by his Spirit , raised up by his Power into the Likeness of his Resurrection , and having suffered with him , shall reign with him . And now in Opposition to the Doctrine of such a rigid and Severe Satisfaction , as is by divers asserted ; 〈◊〉 must tell my Opposers , that though the Chastisement of our Peace was upon him , and by his Stripes we are said to be healed ; this is neither of the Nature of Revenge from God , Wrath or Punishment to the full , that is due for Sin ; nor doth it exempt or free them , who come to be his Followers , from being liable at all to God's Chastisement or Correction in their own particulars , when there is Cause for it ; for whom he loves , them also he doth correct , which is not Revenge , as 't is said , If my Children forsake my Law , and keep not my Commandments , then will I visit their Transgressions with the Rod , and their Iniquity with Stripes ; nevertheless my loving Kindness will I not utterly take from them , &c. Psa. 89. 30 , 31 , 32 , 33. This concerned David ( and his Seed ) who notwithstanding did so undergoe the Chastisements of the Lord , that he went often in a bowed down and mournful State , as when he complained , My God , my God , why hast thou forsaken me , &c. Psa. 22. which were the same Words Christ u●…tered in his deep Suffering , Mat. 27. 4●… plainly i●…timating , how he took upon him the Sufferings and Bur●…en of his People , and his bearing the Sin and 〈◊〉 of many wherein it 's evident , that they that ●…ollow Christ through the Work of Regeneration , and obtain the new Birth , do spiritually pass through the Fellowship of Christ's Sufferings , and do partake of their due Shares thereof , both for their Remission , and to obliege them to follow him in his own Way of Light and Life , whereby they who are faithful to him , witnes the Blood Cove●…ant the Coverant , that cleanseth from Sin , and an Interest in that everlasting 〈◊〉 This is the Way a●…d Passage of the Ra●…somed o●… the Lord , who through his Judgment and Chastis●…ments have 〈◊〉 a Ransom , received the Attonement and an Interest in the Everlasting 〈◊〉 of Li●… and Glory . Having thu●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the Matter in general , I come further to 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 particular Passages , that chiefly concern me to 〈◊〉 . S. S. Th●… La●…●…ver a●…ows us to sin ; if at ten Years of Age a Person commits M●…er , a●…d then lives according to the Law of the Land in ev●… 〈◊〉 ●…rty Years , then arraigned for this , the Judge cannot pro●…ounce him Innocent , and so acquit him , because the Law did not allow him to commit Murther any Part of his Life , p. 93. Answ. A Truth in both . 1st , The Law never allows us to sin , no more doth Grace , or the Gospel ; Shall we sin , because we are no more under the Law , but under Grace ? God forbid , for how can we that are dead unto Sin live any longer therein ? 2dly , Justice cannot pronounce a Guilty Person Innocent , upon the Cessation from the meer Act of Unrighteousness , but God's lovin●… Kindness and tender Mercy can , and doth afford Remission upon true Repentance ; and his Justice can pronounce him ●…nocent , that is purged from the Nature & Root of Sin , & washed from Iniquity : Have Mercy upon me , O God , according to thy loving Kindness ; according to the multitude of thy tender Mercy blot out my Transgressions , wash me throughly from mine Iniquity , &c. Psa 51. 1 , 2. They whose Transgressions are thus blotted ou●… , who come thus to be washed and saved , through the Washing of Regeneration ; such come thus to be justified by his Grace , & can be pronounced Innocent , as being washed and sanctified ; and such have the Demand of a good Conscience : And though Pardon and Justification look not back at the unconverted State with Severity , but with Remission upon Conversion ; yet they require what God's Covenant doth afterward , to the End of our Dayes ; that is , not to live in Sin , but in Christ's Righteousness : The Grace , or Favour of God , teacheth us , that denying Ungodliness and wordly Lusts , that we should live godly and soberly in this present World , Tit. 2. 12. To be invested with Christ's Everlasting Righteousness , p. 93. is the very Thing I plead for , and if in Reality the Man stood to this , the Controversie would soon have an End. And he further assents to Truth , viz. If this Righteousness be not put on by Faith , we are not invested with any Thing , for which God should declare or pronounce us Righteous . From whence observe , That we must be invested with Christ's Everlasting Righteousness , if God pronounce us Righteous : Take Justification and Imputation in this Sense , and then we differ not in this Matter ; but how well this agrees with imputing and reckoning Guilty , Condemned , Fallen Creature , JUST or INNOCENT , only on the Account of Christ's Sufferings and Death , while such condemned Creatures are invested with Sin and Guilt , and not with Christ's Everlasting Righteousness ? Will his telling us of Christ's Death imputed , p. 97. make up the Matter ? 'T is true , Christ is our Surety , and that of the new Testament or Covenant , 1st , For that without him we can pay no Debt , nor truly obey or fulfil the Terms thereof on our Parts , but in and through him that strengthneth us . 2dly , Of the New Testament also , in fulfilling the Promises belonging thereto ; for all the Promises of God are Yea and Amen in him . David describes the Blessedness of the Man to whom God imputes Righteousness without Works , saying , Blessed is he whose Iniquity is forgiven : But then S. S. is not pleased to take notice of ( but overlooks ) the following Words , viz. Blessed is the Man unto whom the Lord imputeth not Iniquity , and in whose Spirit there is NO GUILE ; See Psal. 32. 1 , 2. If it were only a Man thus qualified , that the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness and Justification were pleaded for , we should not have this Controversie ; but should agree , That the Man in whose Spirit is NO GUILE , is blessed ; He is the Man whom God pronounceth Just and Innocent ; his Transgression is forgiven , his Sin is covered : And though it is said , God imputes Righteousness to him without Works ; yet 't is to be understood , it is not without a sincere Obedience , because that in his Spirit there is no Guile : and then without what Works ? 1. Not without the Work of living Faith. 2. Not without yielding true Subjection or Obedience unto God in his spiritual Requirings or Law of Faith ; for Abraham did not only believe God , but by Faith yielded ●…o obey him : Without what Works then ? but the Work of the Law of Works ( as wrought by the Flesh or st●…nly Jew ) by which no Flesh shall be justified . I mentioned C●…rcumcision , and others , that were Types or Signs , wherein the Righteousness of Faith doth not consist ; see Divin . of Christ , p. 64 , 65. in which this Point is opened and cleared : But to this S. S. objects , viz. He errs , calling the Ceremonial Law a Law of Works ; in giving this , the Lord gave a Law of Grace to his People , p. 94. Rep. If the Ceremonial Law be not a Law of Works , but a Law of Grace ; he should have been so Ingenuous as to have told us , what the Law of Works is , which the Apostle distinguisheth from the Law of Faith , Rom. 3. 27. as he d●…th between justifying Faith and the Deeds of the Law ( as wrought and boasted in by the literal Jews ) And whether the Law of Works be some Law inferiour to that of Circumcision & other Types ? But to shew S. S. his Error , in denying the Ceremonial Law ( as he calls it ) to be the Law of Works ; let him consider , that after the Apostle excludes Boasting , not by the Law of Works ; and concludes a Man is justified by Faith without the Deeds of the Law , he saith , Is H●… the God of the Jews only ? Is He not also of the Gentiles ? and that it is by Faith that God justifies both the Circumcision and the Uncircumci●…on ; and that Faith was reckoned to Abraham ●…or Righteousness , not in Circumcision , but in 〈◊〉 ; and that he received the Sign of Circumcision , a Seal of the Righteousness of the Faith which he had , yet being Uncircumcised , that he might be the Father of all them that be●…ieve , though they be not Circumcised , &c. See Rom. 3. 28 , 29. and Ch. 4. 10 , 11. Gal. 2. 16. and 3. 2 , 5. and 4. 10. And ●…urther , If ye be circumcised , Christ shall profit you nothing , ch . 5 2. From all which 't is plain , 't is no Error to say , the Law of Works ( as opposed to the Law of Faith ) is that enjoyning Circumcision and other Signs and Shadows , & these the Works which are not imputed unto Justification ; nay , I shall further grant , that all Man's Works or working whatsoever before a living Faith , are neither available nor accountable unto his Justification with God , and on the other Hand , that a true and sanctifying Faith , and believing in God ( from a Sence of his living Word or holy Command in the Heart ) is accounted for Righteousness to him that so believe●…h , before he hath performed his actual Obedience ; even while in the Faith he is passively waiting upon God ( as being ceased to do Evil ) that he may receive Strength to act Good , even while he is so believing , and waiting , and breathing to the Lord , and saying , draw me , and I will come after thee ; lead me , and I will follow ; give me Strength , and I will walk in thy Wayes ; come , let us walk in the Light of the Lord , &c. knowing that it is the Power of God that begets living Faith , and thereby changes and sanctifieth the Mind unto a living and sincere Obedience ; and this Faith is the Gi●…t of God , a Fruit of his own Spirit , and therefore accounted of by him , and reckoned unto us : I would not make the Scriptures speak , that God imputes Works wrought by us , without Works by us ( as S. S. falsly accuseth me , p. 94. ) But rather , that God imputes his own Works in us , without any self-Works wrought by us , and accepts us in the Beloved , in whom we are created again unto good Works . How can Christ's sinless Obedience from the beginning of Life to the end , ( which takes in his Conformity to the Law ) be imputed to the Guilty and fallen Creature ; or that Conformity be the Everlasting Righteousness wherewith the true Believer is invested , when as 't is not the Works of the Law , but the Righteousness of Faith that Justifies and Recommends to God ? And this is inwardly poss●…ssed , where true Faith and the Obedience thereof , is injoyed and Lived in ; it is not Christ's Conformity to the Law that Justifies us , but his making us conformable to his own Image and Partakers of his Everlasting Righteousness , for which God pronounceth us just ; for men are not imputatively Righteous or Just , when actually condemned as Guilty , Sinful , Fallen Creatures . And further , I deny that Christ's Conformity to the Law , whilst on Earth , doth either constitute or reckon us righteous from the Beginning of Life to the End ; for that God according to his Grace and Mercy forgiveth Sins that are past ( before Faith ) and after his Visitation and Mercy is received , the Law and Righteousness of Faith enjoyns us to Newness and Holiness of Life , without which he will not acquit us : He will not acquit the Wicked ; If I sin , thou markest me , and wilt acquit me from mine Iniquity , Job . 10. And then , shall we sin , because we are no more under the Law , but under Grace ? God forbid , &c. His saying , But were the Works of Faith perfect , yet could they not be a justifying Righteousness , p. 95. Though Righteousness in the Abstract , and as it is everlasting , doth not consist ( or is not made up ) of any Work outward , or temporal Acts ; yet to conclude that the Works of Faith , ●…hough perfect , cannot be justi●…ing , is contrary to the Apostle's Testimony of being justified by Faith , whereby we have Peace with God ; and you see ●…hou that ●…Y WO●…KS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED , and n●…t by Faith only : Was not our Father Abraham justified by W●…ks , when he offered up his Son Isaac ? A●…d God will ordain Peace for us ; for he hath wrought all ●…ur Works in us , Isa. 26. and then are not his Works in us , ●…ding to our Justification and Acceptance , being recko●…d ours , as wrought in us ? Are not these accounted of wit●… the Lord from the Dignity of himself that worketh them ? For to him it is said , thou hast also wrought all eur Works in us . To that Question , Will he say that Abraham did not in Faith circumcise his Son ? Answ. But he was Justified before that ; for Faith was reckoned to Abraham for Righteousness when he was in Uncircumcision : Though every Act of true and living Obedience , both before , under , and since the Law , was done in Faith ; yet are they not made Righteous by the meer Works , but by that Power and Spirit of Faith that works them . And If A S we are made Sinners and condemnable by One Man's Disobedience , we be S O made Righteous and Justifiable by the Obedience of One ; then we must be as really made Righteous in the second Adam , as we were Sinners in the first Adam : A S in Adam all dye , S O in Christ shall all be made alive ; A S we have born the Image of the Earthly , S O we must bear the Image of the Heavenly ; which is not from a meer Imputation o●… either without a real Participation : They are not Innocent or Clear in themselves who are either made or reckoned Sinners by one Man's Disobedience ; nor are they without the Participation of Christ's Righteousness in themselves who are made Righteous by his Obedience ; They that receive abundance of Grace and of the Gift of Righteousness , shall reign in Life by Jesus Christ : Death hath passed upon all men , for that all have sinned ; Sin hath really reigned in man unto Death ; and so must Grace reign through Righteousness , unto Eternal Life . God's Imputations or Reckonings to Man are true ; whom he reckons Sinners are inherently such , and whom he reckons Righteous are so likewise ; but the Hypocrite , who can Justifie the Wicked , is an Abomination unto God , Howbeit , contrary to what I have said , S. S. reasons , viz. We are not Partakers of this by our actual Commission of it : I●… cannot be said we are Par●…ers of Adam's Sin in that we are personal Offenders ; it must be therefore by Go●…●…mputation . Obs. By this he hath explained his ●…se of the Imputation of Ada●…'s Sin and Christ's 〈◊〉 , and s●… of 〈◊〉 and Justification ; and ●…o by this , Rom. 〈◊〉 . ●…9 . is thus to be read , AS by One man's Disobe●…ience many were made Si●…ners that were not actual Sinners , SO by the Obedience of One many are made Righteous who never actually obeyed ; an easy , pleasant and Sin-pleasing Doctrine for the Ungodly , Sinners , and Hypocrites ) ●…rom whence also it follows that they are condemnable by Adam ' s Disobedience ( Children are not excepted , he saith ) who never committed actual Transgression ; and so they are Justified by Christ's intire Obedience , who never actually obe●…yed him : and what 's this but still the old Abomination , to Condemn the Innocent , and Justifie the Guilty or Wicked ? S. S. adds , Let the words be weighed [ by one man's Disobedience many were made Sinners ] it is not here said , By many Personal Disobediences we are made Sinners , though this be true , &c. p. 96. Rep. By one man Sin entered into the World , & Death by Sin ; yet it is not Adam's Sin intirely ( as a particular Person ) that is imputed , though from one Offence sprung many ; ●…or Death reigning in Man is an Effect of his own sinning & being in the Nature and Image of the first Man , in whom all dye ; Death hath passed over all Men , for that all have sinned , even over as many as have not sinned after the Similitude of Adam's Transgression , which still implies , they have sinned after some Similitude or Manner ; yea , many in a more gross Manner then Adam sinned , * that yet think themselves Imputatively Righteous : It was not only the Offence , as committed by him alone ; but the Offence or Sin , and Nature of Enmity continued and committed by men themselves , and also springing up into many Offences , which makes many Sinners ; As it is not the Father's eating sower Grapes alone that sets the Childrens Teeth an Edge ; but every Man that eateth the sower Grape , his Teeth shall be set on Edge ; the Soul that sinneth it shall dye ; every man shall dye for his own Iniquity . And further , Why should Adam , as a particular Person be so very much exclaimed against and blamed ( whereby many Hypocrites think to ease themselves , and over look their own Iniquities ) seeing that you know not , but that Adam found Repentance and Forgiveness ? However , since Adam sinned , there were Righteous Generations left , namely Seth , whom God appointed unto Adam as another Seed in stead of Abel , Gen. 4. 25 , 26. and 5. 3. and afterward Enoch came forth , who walked with God , Gen. 5. 24. and Noah and his Family , with whom God renewed his Covenant , that was made to Adam , Gen. 1. 28. Chap. 9. 7 , 9. and there were Righteous Generations after the Destruction of the UNGODLY WORLD by the Flood , though many turned to Iniquity again : But all Men are accountable for their own ; It will not be either their crying out of Adam's sole Offence , or their pleading Christ's intire Obedience , that will excuse them in the Day of the Lord , wherein every man shall give an Account of himself to ●…od , and be rewarded according to his own Deeds done in the Body , whether they be Good or Evil. S. S. God doth not punish that Person , in whom he doth not first see a Transgression , p. 96. Answ. True ; But how agrees this with his Sense of Imputation ? Let the competent Reader judge : hence it ●…ollows ( and that by his own Rule of Contraries ) that A S God doth not punish a Person in whom he doth not first see a Transgression ; SO God doth not justifie a Person , or repute him Righteous , in whom he doth not first see a real Righteousness , and that through Faith and Sanctification : And this plainly overthrows his Notion of Imputation before . S. S. We are made Righteous , not by Conversion only , as G. W. would have it , p. 96. Answ. However , this [ Not only ] grants thus far , that we are not made Righteous without Conversion ; and then we are justified , made Righteous or declared just ( in the true Sense of Imputation ) when converted , in which State we are inherently or inwardly Partakers of Christ's Righteousness , and not in the unconverted : So that S. S. his reiterated contradictory Opinion , as stated by him , ( viz. AS the Disobedience Adam wrought in his own Person on Earth makes us Sinners ; SO The Obedience Christ wrought in his own Person on the Earth makes us Righteous , p. 96. ) is still opposed by the Light of Truth , which manifests how far Men are Partakers of the Nature and Disobedience of the first Adam , and how they come really to partake of the second Adam in themselves , without which God doth neither justifie nor reckon them just . It being also confest , That God doth not punish that Person , in whom he doth not first see a Transgression ; and then it follows , No more doth he justifie that Person , in whom he doth not see his own Image . His Phrase [ Christ's Sufferings imputed ] is not a Scripture-Phrase , though much of his Work hangs upon it ; yet his being made a Curse for us , was not in vain , being to remove the Curse of the Law ( as generally pronounc'd for not continuing in all that 's written , &c. ) to abolish the Shadows of the first Covenant , and to establish the second , that both Jew and Gentile might be reconciled in one Covenant , wherein Christ is the Blessing to all , having been both a perfect Example and Sacrifice , who travilled that he might see his Seed , and suffered that he might reign : Though he suffered and tasted Death for every Man , as an universal Offering for Sin ; yet Men are neither acquitted thereby in their Sins , nor interested in the second Covenant ( which he dyed to establish ) unless they come under the Condition and State thereof , namely , an Agreement and Friendship with God ; for Men will be condemned for disobeying the Gospel , though there be a Relaxation and Change of the Law , touching the Curse thereof , as 't is threaten'd on those general Terms , for not keeping all : But what the Law saith , it is to them that are under it ; It was the outward Jews that it was imposed upon in the Letter of it , though it be universally to be fulfilled in Spirit in the true Christians or Jews inward : And though God hath shewn a Mitigation of the Severity ( which hath been incurred by Sin ) and a Pacification and coming nigh to Mankind with Kindness in his Son Christ Jesus ; yet still , if men reject the Love of the Truth , the Terms of Friendship and Agreement with God , and obey not the Gospel , they miss and fall short of the Benefit of Christ and his Sufferings , and the blessed End for which God sent his Son : And though the Curse of the Law doth not rest upon men for not continuing in all the Letter of it , or shadowy Part ( including both Circumcision , divers Washings , &c. ) yet if their Hearts be not circumcised to the Lord , nor they inwardly washed or sprinkled from an evil Conscience , they have no Part with Christ , as he said , If I do not wash thee , thou hast no Part with me ; Except ye be born again , ye cannot enter into the Kingdom of God : Notwithstanding God doth greatly shew himself propitious and kind , in his Son to Mankind , in that upon any Condition ( viz. his own Terms ) he will admit Man to approach unto him , or come into actual Friendship with himself . Argum. What was typified in the Ceremonial Law is certainly accomplished ; but the Imputation of Christ's Sufferings was typified , Exod. 24. 8. Heb. 9. What did this Sprinkling typifie , but the Imputation or Application of Christ's Sufferings to us . Answ. He varies uncertainly in his Words [ Imputation or Application ] which are different ; the Imputation being supposed to be God's ; the Application Man's : And M●…ses's taking the Blood and sprinkling it on the People , Exod. 24. 8. was neither a Type of this Man's Imputation , nor his Application of Christ's Sufferings unto unsanctified Persons , for their Justification ; but a real Type of Sanctification , and Remission by the Blood of Christ sprinkled upon the Conscience for that End , which is more then unsanctified Persons Application thereof , and thence imagining their Justification : The Scriptures cited by himself prove what I say against him , 1 Joh. 1. 7. But if we walk in the Light , as he is in the Light , we have Fellowship one with another , and the Blood of Jesus Christ , his Son , cleanseth us from all Sin : And Hebr. 9. 14. How much more shall the Blood of Christ , who offered himself without Spot to God , purge your Consciences from dead Works , to serve the Living God ? And Hebr. 12. 24. And ye are come to the Blood of sprinkling : From whence [ Mark ] that this cleansing , purging , sprinkling the Conscience , &c. was a real Act or Effect of the Blood of the Covenant , unto the Sanctification of them who walked in the Light , and not a meer Imputation or Application of Christ's Sufferings for the Justification of Impure and Unsanctified Persons : Moreover , it was when the People said , ALL that the Lord hath said will we do , and be Obedient , that Moses took the Blood and sprinkled it on the People , and said , Behold the Blood of the Covenant , &c. Exod. 24. 7 , 8. To which Type answereth what the Apostle Peter saith , Elect according to the fore-Knowledge of God , through Sanctification of the Spirit ●…to OBEDIENCE and SPRINKLING of the Blood of Jesus , 1 Pet. 1. 2. And he hath washed us from our Sins in his own Blood. This is the Blood of the Covenant that doth sanctifie , Heb. 10. 29. And he shall sprinkle many Nations , Isa. 52. 15. Where Christ is known to sprinkle & purge the Conscience by his own Blood , He really & effectually thereby applies it both unto Sanctification , Remission and Pardon ; but this Effect hath not Mens Imaginary Application o●… it in their Sins and Pollution : It is one Thing for Men in their own Wills to apply the Sufferings , Death and Blood of Christ to themselves ; 't is another to know him to apply it in sprinkling the Conscience . And seeing it is Christ's Work , it concerns us all to obey & follow him in his i●…hining Light for that End ; it being only those who are sanctified by his Blood , of whom it may be truly said , Much more th●…n , being justifi●… by his Blood , we shall be saved from Wrath through him , Rom. 5. 9. To his saying , To be justified is to be pardoned , p. 97. I grant , that to receive Pardon of Sins past upon true Repenta●…ce , is to receive a Degree of Justification so far as from the Condemnation ; but to be absolutely justified to the End of Life , a●…er Pardon is received , is more then Pardon of Sins past before ; for this is not without a Perseverance in the Grace , Rom. 11. 22. Heb. 6. 4 , 5 , 6. Chap. 10. 26. His saying , We are pardoned for the sake of Christ's Death imputed , p. 97. is no Scripture-Phrase or Language : why is not the whole World for whom he dyed then pardoned and justified ? If he replies , because of Unbelief , or that they have not Faith in his Blood ; It follows then , that Men are pardoned and justified through Faith in the Blood of Christ , and not by their Application or Imputation of the Death of Christ ; for it is said , that he was delivered for our Offences , and was raised again for our Justification , Rom. 4. 25. therefore not by the meer Imputation of his Death : Neither do these cited Scriptures ( Col. 1. 14. Ephes. 1. 6. Rom. 3. 24. Mat. 26. 28. ) prove his Doctrine of Imputation ; but Redemption or Remission through his Blood , Redemption in Christ ; and Ephes. 1. 6. We are accepted IN the Beloved : These real Scripture-Truths are never doubted of by us , and 't is true , that the Children of Israel bringing their Sacrifices to the Priest to offer ( or otherwise Blood was to be imputed to them ) doth typifie , that we must offer our Services by Christ our high Priest. S. S. If we think to have the best Services that we are enabled to perform , accepted immediately as from us , and not for the sake of Christ presenting them , &c. for this God will cut us off ; he will as soon accept of Murther from us , as such a Service , p. 98. Rep. As herein he would represent the Condition of Believers or justified Persons , he non-sensically mistates the Case ; For , 1st , Such are not apt to ascribe either the Dignity or Acceptance of their best Services to themselves ; but unto Christ who enables them to perform . 2. As their Sufficiency is of Christ , and in him , and not of themselves ; so he hath the Glory thereof , and they the Acceptance and Peace in him , as they continue faithful in him , serving the living God. 3. Christ's Priesthood is an holy Priesthood : It is also said of them , Ye also as lively Stones built up a spiritual House to offer up spiritual Sacrifices , acceptable to God by Jesus Christ , 1 Pet. 2. 5. And these are not polluted or unholy Sacrifices which this holy Priesthood offers by him : But , 4. You who are of an Unholy and Polluted Priesthood , are offering polluted Services ; sinsul and wandring Prayers , which are but Dreams , sinning in your best Duties , committing Iniquity in your holy Things ( as many of you have often confessed ) and are all as an unclean Thing , and that God will as soon accept of Murther from you , as of such a Service ; and yet presume , that those your unclean , polluted Sacrifices and Services are presented by Christ to the Father , and accepted in the Merit of his Sacrifice ; but herein you are deceived and deluded : Christ doth neither present , nor doth God accept any of your sinful Services or polluted Performances ; but will Po●…e Contempt upon you in them , and return back your polluted Prayers and Services , and with Indignation spread them as Dung upon your own Faces ; therefore Repent , Repent , and be converted to Christ , the true Light and Way to the Father , and to the Spiritual House and Holy Priesthood ( which yet you are much short of ) to offer Spiritual Sacrifices , acceptable to God by Christ. CHAP. III. About Christ's Justifying Righteousness , the best Robe ; the Necessity of its Inherence ( or being inwardly enjoyed ) not to invalidate but to fulfil the blessed Intent and Ends of his Sufferings , in Reply to S. S. S. S. If the Righteousness we are justified by is a Garment , a Arg. Robe , even the best Robe , then we are justified by a Righteousness wrought without us ; for our Garments are not wrought within us , but without us . Rep. This justifying Righteousness then is a Garment to be put on ; but whether its being a Garment , and to be put on , doth prove that it is not within , but without only , let them that have put it on judge : It appears , that this Opposer hath disputed and pleaded so long for the Being of Sin to remain within , that he has no Room ●…or Christ's Righteousness within : But I would enquire of him ; Is every Thing that is to be put on therefore not within but without ? Is this a good Argument ? As , P●…ye ye on the Lord Jesus Christ ; Put on Strength , O Sion ! Put on thy beau●…iful Garments , O Jerusalem ! Put on the whole Armour o●… God , &c. Must these therefore not be within , but without only ? And so he might as well say of Salvation , with which the Meek are cloathed ; or of the Zeal of the Lord , which the Upright do put on for a Cloak , and Righteousness ●…or a Garment . But to give him his due ; After he hath concluded that the Righteousness for which we are Justified is wrought without us , is a Garment , &c. He confesseth that the holy Ghost doth not alwayes ( using this Similitude ) intimate to us , that that Righteousness which is put on , is wrought without us , p. 99. And what Righteousness is that which is put on that is wrought within us ? Do we both put on a Righteousness that is within us , and a Righteousness that is not within us ? what Scripture has he for this Distinction ? And what Confusion is the Man fallen into , to conclude that the Justifying Righteousness is not wrought within but without , because put on as a Garment ; and yet that there is a Righteousness put on which is not wrought without us but within us ? See what a profound Logician this man would shew himself ; but thus he confounds the Minds of the Simple , and darkens Counsel by Words without Knowledge . To Luk. 15. 22. Bring forth the best Robe and put it on him , he saith , By this Robe the holy Ghost understands Christ's Obedience unto Death ; not to speak of Increated Righteousness , even the essential and incommunicable Righteousness of God , which never was wrought within or without , but is the eternal Godhead , pag. 99. Rep. However he hath sufficiently confessed that the Righteousness by which we are Justified must be put on ; but while he denies it either to be within or Essential , he denies our Participation of the divine Nature ( which is essential to God himself ) or of Christ , who is God's Righteousness , who was delivered up for us all , and with whom the Father will give us all things ; Is He then Incommunicable or not to be given , whenas they that are Christ's have put on Christ ? Is not He the best Robe ? And is not He then within us ? And He that obeyed and suffered for us ( who wrought Righteousness ) Greater then the Act of Obedience ? Is not the Worker above and Greater then the Work ? But while this Opposer endeavours to exclude or shut Christ and his Righteousness ( or the Robe which the Saints put on ) all out of his Members , and counts Christs Obedience unto Death without them this Robe , and not a Robe within them ; because a Robe put on , as he argues , we are to understand that by [ Put on ] he must ●…ean Christ's Obedience without ( unto Death ) is imputed 〈◊〉 reckoned theirs , when there is nothing of it in them either of the Nature , Spirit , Virtue , or Effects of it unto the Crucifying of the Old Man , or mortifying of Sin ; or else own that Men are not accounted Righteous , nor Justified only by Christ's Dying or Obedience without them , but through the Operation of his Spirit within them , who dyed for our Sins , but was raised for our Justification ; and then only they that dye and live with him are accounted Righteous and blessed with God ( being Partakers of the Heart-purifying Faith ) and not they that live to themselves without the Possession or Enjoyment of Christ's Nature and Life in them , which is Divine and Increated : But he tells us of a four fold Righteousness . 1st , The sincere Obedience of an upright man. 2dly , The perfect but loosable Righteousness of the first man in Innocency . 3dly , The perfect but confirmed Obedience of blessed Angels . 4thly , The perfect everlasting and Infinitely Pretious Obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ ; this last , the best Robe ; the Righteousness of God himself , p. 99. Rep. What is it we contend for but Man's being invested with the perfect and everlasting Righteousness of God himself , his own Nature and Image ? And is not this in the renewed Man ? 1st , Was not this in Man while in Innocency in the Image of God ; though he then not Immoveably Confirmed in it , however accepted while he stood in it ? 2dly , Doth not the fincere Obedience of an upright Man in Christ , flow from his Inward Participation of the Divine Nature and Image in him , and therefore accepted from the Excellency of that Divine Root and Seed from whence his Fruit Springs ? 3dly , Are not the blessed Angels accepted in their Obedience to God , which from a Sence of his divine power they are exercised in ? Still the everlasting Righteousness is but one , and the Life and Excellency thereof is infinite both in Christ and in his Members , who are of his Flesh and of his Bone ; as he that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all of one ; and Christ is the First and the Last ; and in all things must have the Preheminence . 4thly , The man mistakes , if he suppose that we plead either the Righteousness of a Creature , or man 's own Righteousness which he himself is inabled to perform , as the Cause of Our Justification ; for Christ that strengthens us and enables us by his Power and Spirit dwelling in us to do the Fathers Will , He is the Ground and Cause of our Justification , and in him who is the Beloved are we accepted , not meerly for our Works or Obedience , but for his sake who worketh in us and enables us to do those things which are well-pleasing in his Sight . That God bestows Righteousness on a returning P●…odigal as the best Robe , is true ; but to exclude this Righteousness , or best Robe , that God bestows , as not to be within , but only without , because , to be put on , is not true ; for if the Mind , Heart , or Soul within be not cloathed therewith , how is it put on ? or how should good or acceptable Fruits be brought forth to God , if not from an inward and Everlasting Righteousness ? And though Man doth not partake thereof from the beginning of Life , Can this Man think that Christ's Death or Obedience without , doth Justifie Men , or make them be deem'd Righteous from the beginning of Life to the End ? howbeit , when Men are converted and become the Righteousness of God in Christ , and come to Live and Dye ( or end their Dayes ) in him , they are accepted and blessed ; yea blessed are the Dead which dye in the Lord , for their Works follow them . Mark the Perfect Man , and behold the Upright , for the End of that man is Peace : But all this Man's Imputation of a Righteousness and best Robe ( which he sayes , is a Righteousness wrought without us , there being none wrought within us ; so God , &c. p. 99. ) depends upon his Doctrine for Sin and Imperfection term of Life , which he & his Brethren have not only concluded must continue in the best of Men and their best Actions all their Dayes ; but Imperfection even in Christ's Work or Righteousness wrought in his People , which therefore he disclaims from being concerned in our Justification ; but sayes , we are Justified by that Righteousness which Christ wrought without us , though he cannot deny , but that Christ wrought the Righteousness of the Law without us ( and conformed to the Law in the Dayes of His Flesh ) which I suppose will not be deemed our Justification : But if I ask , By and to Whom was this Obedience , Righteousness or Satisfaction made without us , to be Imputed unto us as ours , or men thereby Justified while Unjust , Imperfect and Sinful , without the Robe of Righteousness in themselves ; or rather accounted Just from the beginning of Life to the End ? ( whether all or some of these for whom Christ dyed , he tells us not ) You may take this for his Answer , viz. God in our Nature obeyed God ; and this is Righteousness of Infinite Value , the very best Robe , p. 99. Rep. 1. Is this the Compensation , Payment and Satisfaction in our stead to vindictive Justice , so much pleaded by our Opposers ? Were it good Doctrine to say , either that God obeyed , and satisfied his own Revenge by obeying himself ( as if he were divided and at Variance with himself ) or that he was revenged on himself , considered as Christ in our Nature or Flesh ? I cannot own this Doctrine , that such a rigid Payment and Satisfaction could be required in the Nature of the great Propitiation and Sacrifice for Sin ; but a Pacification or Attonement and a Condescension to Forgiveness of Sin past , to be receiv'd on true Faith and Repentance . 2. That Christ in the Flesh did by his divine Power perfectly obey the Father agendo & patiendo , i. e. by doing and suffering ; and therein was an acceptable and satisfactory Sacrifice for Sin , is not any Matter in Question or Doub●… with me ; but that God obeyed God by way of a rigid or strict Payment ; made to himself , as a Satisfaction to absolute Revenge or vindictive Justice , thereby to acquit Man continuing in his Sin and Imperfections : This I utterly deny , as repugnant to the very Language and Tenour of the holy Scriptures and Testimonies of the holy Men , which require Obedience and Faithfulness to God ( and a walking in his Light ) on our Parts . 3. As also your Continuance in Sin , and yet thinking your selves absolved or justified by Christ's Dying for you , is contrary to the very Intent of Christ's Dying for all , which was , that as many as live , should not live unto themselves , but unto him that dyed and rose again . 4. While he shuts out Justification , as done or effected by God obeying God , as he saith ; how is the Creature to put this on as a Robe , seeing these Men like not to be concerned in Christ's inherent Righteousness or Holiness , as a Matter of Justification ? Which while they are not Partakers of , nor cloathed with , they are cloathed with Sin and Iniquity , the Rags of old Adam and self-Righteousness , ●…vered with a Covering , but not of God's Spirit ; and how then should they be invested with the best Robe upon these filthy Garments , or while unstript of those old Rags ? Surely they will find it otherwise . 5. For they will find , that if they appear before the Lord , not having on the Wedding-Garment , the white Linnen , the Righteousness of Saints , they will be found speechless , and be turned out as unmeet Guests ; their own Guilt will stop their Mouths that they will not be able to plead and say , O God , thou hast obeyed thy self in our Nature for us ; or , Christ's Obedience , Suffering and Death is imputed to us for our Justification ; we are very fit Guests , only on that Account ; though we be all our Dayes disobedient , polluted and sinful in our best Actions : This will be no Plea for you ; neither will God say then , bring forth the best Robe and put upon these mens filthy Rags and polluted Garments ; but Friend , how camest thou hither , not having on the Wedding-Garment take this evil Servant and cast him into utter Darkness ; Devart ye Workers of Iniquity , I know you not . God will take Vengeance on all them that know him not , who obey not the Gospel , but obey Unrighteousness ; and Tribulation and Anguish will be upon their Souls . 6. The Prodigal's coming to himself , and returning to his Father's House with Regreet and Bewailing himself to his Father , saying , Father , I have sinned against Heaven and in thy Sight ; I am not worthy to be called thy Son ; and the Father's meeting him with Compassion , and then calling for the best Robe to put upon him , and allowing him sumptuous and joyful Entertainment upon his Return and Repentance : This makes for our Purpose ; The Prodigal did not remain in his Extravagancy , nor among the Swine from his Father's House , confidently telling his Fellows , That though I be an Unfaithful and Disobedient Son , and thereby am become poor and ragged ; 't is sufficient that I believe , and apply my Father's best Robe and Entertainment that he hath in his House at this Distance , and in this my Rebellion ; Nor did he say to his Father when he met him , Father , thou hast been faithful , and hast perfectly obeyed and fully paid thy self in my stead for me , which I must look upon as my Absolution and Acquitment from all thy Anger , Frowns and future Punishments , though I continue a Disobedient & Rebellious Son all my Dayes ; thy Obeying thy self is my whole Discharge for all my Iniquities past , present and to come , &c. Surely this was not the returning penitent Prodigal 's Song ( though it be the impenitent Presbyter's ) but Father , I have Sinned , &c. make me as one of thy hired Servants : His inward Remorse and Penitency spake sorth it self as his acceptable Plea , and there is Joy in Heaven over one Sinner that repenteth ; not over impenitent , unmortified Hypocrites , and Boasters of Christ's Righteousness without them , and they living in the World without it or him either . I have often granted and confest , that neither by the Deeds of the Law , nor by mens own Actions are any justified with God : But the Man's concluding , that our personal Obediences to God's Will and in God's Strength are the Deeds of the Law , whether we obey from Faith or without Faith , they are the Deeds of the Law ; and what is the Consequence ? Therefore not justifying , or our Obedience by Faith to the Will of God , and that by his own Strength , is not concerned in our Justification : And both these I must deny as unsound and unscriptural ; for 1. The Deeds or Works of the Law , by which no Flesh shall be justified , are not that Obedience of Faith which the Apostles preached , which was and is acceptabl●… to God ; nor that justifying Faith or Belief in God , which is Obedience itself , and without which it is impossible to please God or be justified : Dare he deny that this believing is Obeying ? 2. To conclude obeying the Will of God from Faith , not to be of a justifying Tendence , is repugnant to plain Scripture , Jam. 2. 24. And note , that if all Works and obeying God , even from Faith , must be counted the Deeds of the Law , by which none be justified ; then this makes the Apostle James's Testimony void , as thwarting Paul's , where James said , Was not Abraham our Father justified by Works ? &c. And Abraham believed God , and it was imputed to him for Righteousness , Jam. 2. 21. 23. And was not this Believing of God a real Obeying ? though not those Deeds of the Law spoken of Rom. 3. 20. For the Obedience or Works of living Faith , which justifie in James his Sense , and the Works of the Law ( not of Faith ) which Paul mentions , are two differing States and Things , otherwise there would be a Clash between them . Again , If Abraham's believing God , was imputed to him for Righteousness ; and so the Righteousness of true andliving Faith be imputed to them also , who walk in the Steps of the Faith of Abraham , who was faithful & obedient ; for any to oppose the Imputation of this Righteousness , as to its being within , or endeavour to exclude this Righteousness of Christ and Faith from true Believers , as only wrought without them , and not within them , because imputed or reckoned theirs ; it were as good Doctrine to exclude true Faith and Obedience of it , as all wrought without us , not within us , and yet say , t is imputed to us ; for living Faith which worketh by Love , and the Righteousness of it , are inseparable . But the Man is greatly confounded in a self Contradiction , where he grants that Christ's Justifying Righteousness ( that is Imputed ) is the same that redeems our lost Souls ; p. 100. ( which is true ) And yet he shuts out , not only Believers personal Obedience to the Will of God , through Faith and God's own Strength ; but also Sanctification and Holiness ( and so the Inward Work of Christ ) from being our Justifying Righteousness or Redeeming our lost Soul , p. 100. Where then and how is the Soul redeemed ? Is not the Soul within ? And is not Christ made unto true Believers Wisdom , Righteousness ; Sanctification and Redemption ; and all these inwardly received ? and hath not this man confessed that we are saved by the Washing of Regeneration ? &c. and so Justified or made Just by inherent Holiness , from Titus 3. 5 , 7. Can we be both saved and Justified through this inward Washing of Regeneration , and yet not redeemed nor Justified through it ? Oh! Confusion and Darkness to be seen and felt . Arg. II. No Righteousness wrought by us , is of that Worth as to redeem our lost Souls , nor for that are we Justified ; therefore the Sufferings of Christ only , &c. This Argument ( sayes he ) God enabled me the first Dispute to press with full Enlargement on the Consciences of the People to secure them from the Soul-destroying Error of this man. Rep. This Accusation upon me is both groundless , false and malitious . For 1st , I never affirmed any such Doctrine , as that any Righteousness wrought by the Creature , doth redeem man s lost Soul to God ; nor place any such Infinite Worth , Price or Merit upon any temporal Act or Work of Man ; but Christ Jesus , who is God's Righteousness , is the Redeemer , Deli verer , and so the Redemption of the Soul to God , by whom also the Soul is enabled to true Obedience : It is by Grace in him , through Faith , that we are saved ; not of our selves , it is the Gift of God ; nor of Works , lest any Man should boast ; howbeit , Good Works are ordained of God that we should walk in them ; for we are his Workmanship , created in Christ again unto good Works , see Eph. 2. 8 , 9 , 10. 2dly , I never undervalued the Worth of Christ's Sufferings in the Flesh ; far be it from me so to do , though yet I cannot own this man's placing mens absolute Justification on them , and from thence shutting out Christ's Inward Work of Sanctification ; yet thereto both the Travil of his Soul. Intercession , Sufferings and Sacrifice had a lively Tendency , seing that both Remission and Sanctification is known through Faith in his Blood , which both purgeth the Conscience , sanctifieth and justifieth . I do confess that as the Redemption of the Soul , or its Salvation , is of infinite Value ; so the Price that procures it must be equivalent and nothing short of infinite . But I further perceive my Opposer is confounded in this matter of Satisfaction and Justification as he states it ; for one while he reckons , t is only by God obeying God in our Nature ; an other while , ' t is only by the Sufferings and Death of Christ ( which he calleth his Righteousness imputed ) wherein also he contradicts divers of his eminent Brethren , who say , that Christ could not satisfie divine Justice as Man simply , by temporal Death and Suffering , because Infinite Justice must be answered with an infinite Satisfaction , Price or Payment for Man's Redemption : Others again are of the mind , that God Being Infinite and Perfect in all his Attributes both in Goodness , Love and Mercy as well as Justice ; and Omnipotent in Power , he could forgive or pardon Sin , upon true Repentance ( without such a strict and severe Payment as before , as to be sure he both can and doth . To his pressing with Enlargement on the Consciences of the People viz. That they are Justified and Redeemed only by the Suffering of Christ , and not by his inward Work of Sanctification and Holiness , any more then by their own Works or Righteousness wrought by them . The Unjustness and Unrighteousness of both such Teachers and People that follow them , do manifest what little Effect such Preaching hath upon Conscience ; neither indeed doth it tend to any reall in ward Conviction or Remorse in order to a true Conversion ; but to make them believe they are already secure and saved in their Sins , and pure in their own Eyes , when they are not washed from their Filthiness , ( which is to Justifie the Wicked , or declare them , Just ( and to condemn the Just , or declare Christ as the Subject of his Fathers Wrath , in Man's stead ) How falsly and corruptly have many Defiled and Guilty Consciences unjustly acquitted and eased themselves on this account ? But had he in Truth pressed the Necessity of Turning to the true Light in the Confidence , Repeatance , Regeneration , the new Birth , Obedience of Faith , perseverance in Grace , &c. this might have had Impression on the Consciences in order to a Reformation , and so have manifested and demonstrated the blessed 〈◊〉 and End of Christ's Coming , Suffering and Sacrifice for Sinners , and God s holy Design therein , and his condescending to make a Covenant in his own terms with them , to receive them into his Kingdom , Government and Protection ; none of whose Terms or Covenant , is Continuance in Sin or Disobediance term of Life ; for to be received in Covenant with God is , to be received into Agreement and Union with him . But after this Man hath shut out both Obedience to the Will of God through Faith , Sanctification & Holiness , from being our justifying Righteousness , or to redeem or acquit , &c. he essaies to mend the Matter , saying , It doth not shut it out , either as inconsistent or a needless thing , &c. And wherein is Sanctification consistent and needful ? Is it consistent and needful to Justification , y●…a or nay ? Take his Answer . It is so far from being inconsistent , that they are inseparable , and the one a Means to the other . Well said ; Is Faith and Justification consistent , and Faith a Means thereof ? This overthrows his shutting 〈◊〉 Sanctification therein ; for there can be no living and justifying Faith without Sanctification ; But then he goes round again , viz. Flying out of our selves , as seeing nothing but Matter of Condemnation nation in ourselves to Jesus Christ by Faith , and apprehending the Purity and Holiness of our Saviour's Heart and Life , &c. Whether do you fly out of your selves to Jesus Christ ? And by what Faith can he be seen , laid hold on , or his Purity be apprehended to your Justification , while there is nothing seen but Matter of Condemnation in your selves ? For 1st , The true and living Faith is not enjoyed without some Degree of Sanctification within ; and if without this Faith you cannot be justified , then not 〈◊〉 inward Sanctification ; true Faith , and Love by which it worketh , are Fruits of the Spirit , and the Mystery of Faith is held in a pure Conscience ; and he that believeth in the Son of God 〈◊〉 Life . 2dly , The Righteousness of Faith doth not bid us fly out of our selves to Christ's Sufferings without only for Justification ( and that while there is nothing to be seen within but Matter of Condemnation ( which is to impute Christ's Susfering to mens Justification , while they are under Condemnation in themselves , as if they were imputatively just and righteous , even when really and actually damned , which is a sad Imputation , and none of God's nor Christ's ) but the Righteousnes ; of Faith , rather bids us return to the Word of Faith that is nigh in the Heart , to obey it and do it , which Word is both saving and justifying to them that obey it : Say not in thy Heart , who shall ascend ( or fly up ) into Heaven to bring Christ down ; or who shall descend into the deep to bring Christ again from the dead ; but the Word is nigh thee , &c. Rom. 10. And 't is by this ingrafted Word that the true Faith is wrought in the Heart , and the true Application , Benefit and Confession is made to the Soul of Christ's Sufferings , Death and Resurrection , and the real Intent , blessed End and spiritual Advantage thereof , experienced by true Believers , who are Obeyers and Doers of the Word , and not meer outside Hearers and Talkers . Again , this man in Contradiction to his excluding Sanctification before , and saying , that Holiness is not needful to constitute a justifying Righteousness ; and to his Doctrine for Imperfection and Sin , and his justifying Persons condemned in themselves ; He grants thus far to the Effects of Faith , viz. Our Hearts turning to God , we dislike our Sins . We are sweetly engaged to please God in all things . That thus God purifies our Hearts by Faith. That thus we are sanctified by Faith which is in Christ. And a lively Faith will work by Love. It is needful to testifie our Love to God and Christ , and to please and honour God , and be a good Example to our Neighbour , &c. Come on ; Good Doctrine ! Well said S. S. And is not Faith needful to Justification ? And can we be justified without pleasing God , or please God without Justification ? or is not that of a justifying Nature which pleaseth God ? Pray consider it ; the Apostles Experience was , being justified by Faith , they had Peace with God , Rom. 5. ●… . And whatsoever we ask we receive of him , because we keep his Commandment , and do those Things that are pleasing in his Sight , 1 Joh. 3. 22. But S. S. and his Brethren expect to be accepted and justified , because Christ kept the Fathers Commandments , or because God obeyed God ( as his Phrase is ) and on the same Account to be heard and answered of God , while they break his Commands , and do those things that are displeasing in his Sight . Again , John the beloved Disciple said , Hereby we know that we are of the Truth , and shall assure our Hearts before him ; for if our Heart condemn us , God is greater then our Heart , and knoweth all things ; but if our Heart condemn us not , then have we Confidence towards God , 1 Joh. 3. 19. 20 , 21. to the End. But S. S. and his Brethren pretend Faith , Justification and so Confidence towards God ( because of Christ's Sufferings only ) when their Hearts do condemn them ( from the Evidence of the true Light bearing Witness against them ) and when they see nothing but Matter of Condemnation in them ; and indeed this their dead Faith , Confidence and false Imputation are of the same Matter . The true Apostle said , Let us draw near with a true Heart , in full Assurance of Faith , having our Hearts sprinkled from an evil Conscience , and our Bodies washed with pure Water , Heb. 10. 22. But our Sin-pleasing Presbyters think to draw near unto God in a justified Condition on the Account of Christ's Sufferings only , with such a Faith as doth not purifie the Heart ; and having both a polluted , sinful Heart , and a defiled or evil Conscience all their Dayes . The Apostle Johns Testimony was , Herein is our Love made perfect ( viz. in our dwelling in God , and God in us ) that we may have Boldness in the Day of Judgment , because as he is , so are we in this World , 1 Joh. 4. 16 , 17. But the Imperfection and Sin pleading Presbyters think to have Boldness in the Day of Judgment , because Christ was perfect and suffered in the Flesh , although they remain all their Dayes imperfect and sinful , seeing nothing but Matter of Condemnation in themselves ; and so are not at all like God nor Christ in this Present World : They think it will be a Sufficient Plea , that Christ was Perfect and Sinless in their stead ; that God obeyed God , and so was like himself , how Imperfect and unlike him soever they be on this side the Grave ; they conceiting themselves Elect Persons Christ said , If ye love me keep my Sayings , Joh. 14. 23. and John said , By this we know that we love the Children of God , when we love God and keep his Commandments ; for this is the Love of God that we keep his Commandments and they are not Grievous , 1 Joh. 5. 2. 3. But our Opposers , the Presbyters and others , will pretend they love God and his Children , while they are daily breaking and violating his Commandments , and will not believe it possible for any to keep them in this Life , though assisted by the Power of Christ. The Apostle Peter testified , That even Baptism doth now save us , not the putting away of the Filth of the Flesh ( or outside Washing ) but the Answer or ( as some have it ) Demand of a Good Conscience towards God by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ , 1 Pet. 3. 21. But our Opposers Belief and Principle is , That 't is only Christ's Obedience , Sufferings and Death in the Flesh imputed to us , that doth save and Justifie them ; and on this is only their Plea and Demand , and not from his Spirit 's Work of Sanctification or spiritual Baptism , nor the Answer or Demand of a Good Conscience towards God ; they have both shut out Sanctification and Holiness , ( and so excluded Good Conscience ) from being needful to Justification , or to constitute a Justifying Righteousness , * for they herein hold , or at least imply two Righteousnesses of Christ , the one Outward to Justifie , and the other Inward to Sanctifie ; the one Imputative , and the other Inherent ; the one Perfect , and the other Imperfect : And so the Sufferings and Death of Christ in the Flesh ( however inflicted on him by wicked Hands and Murtherers ) must be imputed by these men as the Perfect Justifying Righteousness ; but Christ's own Everlasting Righteousness of Sanctification in the Saints must be deemed Impersect , and not accounted unto Justification ; nor the best Robe , though it be the white Linnen , the Saints Righteousness , whose Garments are washed and made white in the Blood of the Lamb. Whereas Christ's everlasting Righteousness , Holiness , Love , Faith , Patience , &c. ( wherein he perfectly obeyed the Father , and resigned up to his Will both in Doing and Suffering ) were inherent in him ; and therein , and for that Cause his Obedience and Sacrifice was most acceptable and a sweet smelling Savour to God ; not with respect to the Murtherous Act of those that crucified and slew him ; but with respect to that Inherent Holiness , everlasting Righteousness and eternal Spirit , by which he offered uphimself a Lamb without Blemish , and spotless Sacrifice to God , and alwayes did those things that pleased him , Joh. 8. 29. And of the same everlasting Righteousness must every true Believer partake in himself , by the same eternal Spirit by which the Saints were both Washed , Cleansed , Sanctified and Justified , 1 Cor. 6. 11. Through the same eternal Spirit , the same Power , the same Righteousness , the same Holiness , the same Faith , the same Love , the same Patience , &c. that was in Christ , do they partake of , who truly follow him and walk in his steps , having his Life manifest in them , and received the Spirit of the Son , which receives of his things , and giveth unto them who walk after the Spirit , not after the Flesh : But , Quest. What can we give to God for our Souls , proportionable to so Great a Loss , to so great Sufferings ? Sanctification and Holiness ; or a little Faith , and the Works that follow ? This is likely to do ! Answ. A groundless Question in the first place ; no man can redeem his Brother , nor give to God a Ransom for him ; for the Redemption of the Soul is pretious , and so pretious , as that which cannot be procured without a Price of Infinite Value : Christ gave himself a Ransom for all ; 't is Christ himself that ransoms , saves and redeems the Soul to God , and that through Sanctification , or washing of Regeneration ; and Christ is made unto us who believe in him , both Righteousness , Sanctification and Redemption : however , this man undervalues Sa●…ctification and a little Faith ; and though it be the Gift o●… God to us ( and not ours to him ) and the Saints Victory , we have not given to God the Ransom nor the Price ; he Loved us first , and therefore we Love and believe in him : and in this was manifested the Love of God towards us , because he sent his only begotten Son into the World that we might Live through him , 1 Joh. 4. Again , though the Phrase [ Merit of Christ's Blood and Sufferings ] be not a Scripture Phrase ; yet the Worth and Value thereof , with respect to man's Salvation , we never disesteemed , since we knew the true and spiritual Application , Virtue and Effects of his Blood , &c. through his Light and Spirit , to the purging our Consciences , cleansing and justifying , which yet is an inward Experience , not shut out nor put afar off by the true Church , whom God hath purchased with his own Blood , not redeemed with corruptible thing , but with the pretious Blood of Christ , ( which therefore is incorruptible ) Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 1. 17 , 18. cited by S. S. But then he egregiously mistakes in saying , viz. Let us then with Paul abhor all Sanctification in us , all Holiness , all Works of Faith whatever is wrought by us , in Comparison of what we spie by Faith in Christ. Answ. A very gross Mistake and Perversion ; an Abuse of Paul and of those Hearers to whom S. S. preaches such impious Doctrine : It was not Sanctification or Holiness within ; nor yet the Works or Obedience of Faith that Paul either abhorred or rejected for the Excellency of the Knowledge of Christ , or that he might win Christ ; but it was his former Confidence in the Flesh , his own self-Righteousness , which was of the Law , and all those things that had been deemed as Gain to him , that he counted Loss for Christ , and for whom he suffered the Loss of all those things , and counted them but as Dung , that he might win Christ , which he could not so account of all Sanctification or Holiness , wrought by Christ within , nor of the Works of Faith : Can it be any less then Blasphemy ( as in this man's Sense ) thus to present and read Paul ? viz. I abhor all Sanctification within , all Holiness and Works of Faith ; and I count them but all Loss for the Excellency of the Knowledge of Christ Jesus ; and have suffered the Loss of all my inward Holiness , Sanctification and Works of Faith , and do count them but Dung , that I may win Christ ? &c. How unlike Paul , odious and gross were it , thus to pervert his Words , as to say , Let us with Paul abhor all Sanctification in us , &c. neither doth Paul make any such Difference or Repugnancy between Christ's inward Work of Sanctification , and the Excellency of his Knowledge ; nor between being in the Faith or Obedience thereof , and being in Christ and his Righteousness ; but really desired that he might be found in Christ , not having ( said he ) mine own Righteousness , which is of the Law ; but that which is through the Faith of Christ , the Righteousness which is of God by Faith , Phil. 3. 9. so far was he from either putting the Righteousness of Faith afar off , or abhorring Sanctification within , that he desired to have it and be possessed with it , as one found in Christ. For that only doth God justifie us , which doth suffice to turn away his Wrath from us , and satisfie his Justice for our Transgression ; but Christ's Sufferings only , &c. Answ. I deny his minor , as it depends on the Word only ; for then , why are not all Men in the World justified , for whom Christ suffered and dyed ? which was for all Men ; he tasted Death for every Man , for the Sins of the whole World : And yet , he that believeth not on the Son hath not Life , but the Wrath of God abides upon him ; therefore without Faith , Repentance and Conversion ( which are Effects of Christ's inherent Righteousness and Work ) the Wrath is not turned away , nor are Men justified . Obj. Let us then place no Confidence in Sanctification , Holiness , Faith , and the Works that follow , as if these ( laying aside Christ's Death on the Cross ) could turn away God's Wrath , &c. Rep. Herein he varies from his Argument before , which was , that Christ's Sufferings only can turn away Wrath , justifie , &c. Note , It is not Sanctification , Holiness , Faith , &c. only can do it , without Christ's Death ( or laying it aside ) But while here he implies , that Sanctification , Holiness , Faith , &c. ( with respect to Christ's Death ) can turn away Wrath , he hath contradicted his own Argument before of Christ's Sufferings only , which also cannot be slited ; nor his Death made void , where true Faith & Sanctification in him are enjoyed ; for therein Christ himself is enjoyed , and we dare not preach nor own such Doctrine , as to abhor all Sanctification in us ; nor the having no Confidence in Faith and Sanctification , which are wrought in the Soul by Christ Jesus . CHAP. IV. Of Satisfaction ; some serious Considerations farther opening the Doctrine and Sence of our Opposers . Obj. GOd will not Justifie us without full Satisfaction to his Justice for our Sin. Rep. And what Kind of Satisfaction is it , he thinks this Justice requires ? ( We confess a Satisfaction , or answering his Good Pleasure in and by Christ Jesus ; but about the Manner of it , as supposed and stated , we differ ) See how the man states it ; He concludes , it must be a Punishing our Fall. 1st , From God's Judgment . 2dly , God's Truth . 3dly , God's Will and Purpose . Quest. What is his Ground from these ? see his Answer , viz. 1st , God hath said in the Day thou eatest thereof thou shalt Dye . 2dly , Cursed is he that continues not in all , &c. Rep. God's Truth is concerned in his gracious Promises ( both absolute and conditional ) as well as in his conditional Threats : And let it be considered , 1st . That Man's Dying in the Day he so eat , was the Fruit of his Fall into a State of Misery , in dying from that State of Righteousness and Felicity he was in before ; and it was the Natural Effect of his Transgression ; and yet not so as that God was absolutely bound to bring eternal Death on Man in that day , no , no ; nor was divine Justice so narrowly tyed up or short sighted , as not to reserve a Remedy , for God had the Seed of the Woman in his eye ; and divine Justice doth not require that eternal Death or the second death , shall remain upon any , but on the finally Impenitent , who continue in Sin under the Power of the first Death ; for all they who return to God and receive Christ the promised Seed , he proves to them both a Just God and a Saviour : neither Justice nor the Curse of the Law can limit him from shewing Mercy , Remission or Salvation to the Creature , upon true Repentance and Faith in Christ Jesus , who overcomes the World and the evil Nature ; from whence those cursed Actions have sprung , mentioned Deut. 27. 15. to the end of the Chapter . And t is true , the Jews outward , who rejected the Righteousness of Faith ( that is received in the Spirit ) when Christ was set forth , and fetcht their Righteousness from the Letter of the Law , they did strictly and formally bring themselves under the Curse thereof , when they continued not in all that was written ; But there is no Condemnation ( or Curse ) to them that are in Christ Jesus [ my Opposer leaves out what follows ] viz. that walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit , Rom. 8. 1. Yet what the Law saith , it saith to them that are under the Law , that every Mouth may be stopt , and all the World may become Guilty before God : This Law therefore ( as thus convicting ) is Spiritual and tends to man's Conversion , in that it is to prepare him for Mercy , which divine Justice doth not hinder , nor detain the World under the Guilt ; divine Truth being concerned in the gracious Promises , which are Yea and Amen in the Promised Seed that ransoms Man , slayes the Enmity , crucifies the Transgressors or first Birth which must dye , upon which the Law and its Sentence of Death must pass ; and Man that is guilty must feel this in himself before he be delivered into that State wherein there is no Condemnation , or be united to the Lord who Kills and makes Alive : So that neither Justice nor Truth in the Law are frustrated ; the Law is not made void through Faith , but established in the Spirituality and Purity of it ; the Righteousness of the Law being fulfilled in them that walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; And 't is said , that the Righteousness of God without the Law is manifested , being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets , even the Righteousness of God , which is by the Faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe , Rom. 3. Christ came to condemn Sin in the Flesh ; and is the End of the Law for Righteousness , to all them that believe ( and not for the Continuance of Unrighteousness ) and where Sin is put an End to by Christ , the Curse and Condemnation of necessity ceaseth with it , and the Righteousness of Faith takes place in the Soul. Obj. Adam hath sinned — We are by Nature Children of Wrath in our own Persons ; We have failed , hence God's Wrath is up against us , God burning in his Wrath is ready to condemn us , to take Vengeance on us , to consume us as Fire ; not to Justifie and acquit from our Ill Deserts , &c. If Burning ten thousand millions of Years in Hell is not enough to turn away his Wrath , &c. Rep. Thus he hath defined divine Justice , as he thinks ( which is further spoken to hereafter ) but upon whom must it be thus satisfied , supposeth he ? S. S. Justice is satisfied upon Transgression , p. 103. Rep. Then upon Rebellious Transgressors , and not upon Christ , who was alwayes Innocent and did the things well pleasing to the Father ; and therefore divine Justice could never burn , nor take such Vengeance on him for Satisfaction , and let the Guilty go free ; for so to do could not be Justice ; the Satisfaction whereof ( as it intends the Undergoing the Penalty of the Law due for the Injury done ) Justice can only require it of the Offender and Guilty , for whom the Law was made ; not of the innocent or Righteous , for whom the Law was not made : But where then were the Mercy or Forgiveness to the poor Creature that hath sinned , if God were so engaged to burn in his Wrath , and take the full Vengeance upon lost man ? S. S. His Truth engageth him to execute his Justice in punishing Sin ( yea to the full ) should Mercy offer to pronounce any man absolved , his Sin unpunished , Truth would stop the Mouth of Mercy , and say , Hold , I have Cursed , &c. Rep. What strange and lamentable Division would this make in God! and how variable and in Contrariety with himself ? And how Contrary to the Testimonies of his Faithful Witnesses hath this Man rendered God ? As if absolute Revenge and Wrath towards all Mankind did bear the sole Sway in him over all , both his Love , Goodness and Mercy ; Oh sad ! Is not his Mercy over all his Works ? and hath he not Forgiveness in store ? unto whom it is said , who is a God like unto Thee , that pardoneth Iniquity and passeth by the Transgression of the Remnant of his Heritage , he retaineth not his * Anger forever , because he delighteth in Mercy , Mica . 7. 18. The Lord God merciful and gracious , forgiving Iniquity , Transgression and Sin , Exod. 34. 6 , 7. So that even in the Law Gods Mercy and Forgiveness ( as well as his Threats ) were signified , which his Truth must needs be concerned in . Is it not evident , that God is not engaged under Revenge ( nor his Mercy and Truth divided or opposite ) as this Man renders him ? For both must be received , and have their place where Judgment and Mercy meet , and men through the Law become dead unto the Law , so as to know Christ to live in them , and through God's Judgment and Chastisements to find a Ransom and an Attonement ; and God hath Power to turn away Wrath , as he doth upon men's true Repentance , Humiliation and Return to him ; as when the King humbled himself , the Wrath of the Lord turned away from him , 2 Chron. 12. 12. And also Hezekiah seeing the Wrath of the Lord upon Judah and Jerusalem for their doing Evil in his Sight , and turning their Backs , &c. He said , Now is it in mine Heart to make a Covenant with the Lord God of Israel , that his fierce Wrath may turn away from us , 2 Chron. 29. 8 , 10. And ( in the King's Letters ) be ye not stiff necked but yield your selves unto the Lord ; serve the Lord your God , that the Fierceness of his Wrath may turn away from you , 2 Chro. 30. 6 , 8. The King did not conclude , that the Curses pronounced before in Deut. 27. against Offenders , did obliege God to perpetual Revenge , or not to turn away his fierce Wrath , if the People turned from their Iniquities : And said the Lord unto his Church ( that was to be gathered of the Gentiles ) In a little Wrath I hid my Face from thee for a Moment ; but with Everlasting Loving Kindness will I have Mercy on thee , saith the Lord , thy Redeemer , Isa. 54. 8. And concerning Israel , whose Heart was not right with God , neither were they stedfast in his Covenant ; 't is written , But he being full of Compassion , forgave their Iniquity , and destroyed them not ; Yea , many a time turned he his Anger away , and did not stir up all his Wrath ; for he remembred , that they were but Flesh , &c. Psal. 78. 37 , 38. Yea , in the midst of Judgment and in Wrath he hath remembred Mercy ; Righteousness , and Equity are the Stablishment of his Throne ; Mercy and Truth go before his Face , Psal. 89. 14. See how well consistent his Mercy and Truth are : also Psal. 57. 3. and 61. 7. and 98. 3. and 103. 8. and 115. 1. and 119. 64. and 130. 7. Dan. 9. 4. Therefore neither his Justice , Law nor Truth could intend ( or be ) any Limitation or Tye to his Power or Soveraignity , not to turn away his Wrath , or shew Mercy to them that turn away from Evil ; and Mercy rejoyceth against Judgment ( or Condemnation ) Jam. 2. 13. His Truth is so far from stopping the Mouth of Mercy ; yea , 't is most evident to the spiritual Travellers , that though God hide his Face , and send forth his Terrors because of Mens Iniquities and Sins , he hath Power to turn away his Wrath , extend Pardon , and shew the Light of his Countenance ( as he really doth ) when Men turn from Iniquity , and depart from Evil , and with broken Hearts submit themselves to his Power , who keepeth Covenant and Mercy toward them that love him , and them that keep his Commandments , Dan. 9. And for any to deny him this Power and Soveraignity in himself , to shew Mercy and Forgiveness , is 1st , To deny the true God to be God. 2dly , To deny his Love and Goodness . 3dly , To deny his Omnipotency , Infiniteness and Perfection . 4thly , To render God less gracious and kind then his Son. 5thly , To debase God's Power , Glory and Soveraignity below the Prerogative of Earthly Princes , which is best shewn in mitigating , rather then in exacting the Rigor of Laws ; in Acts of Pardon or Grace , rather then the Severity of Revenge upon the Subjects . 6thly . To conclude , That God cannot forgive Sin or Debt , but must have full Payment , or use the utmost Revenge or Rigor ( for Satisfaction ) ( whether on the Debtor or Surety ) is contrary to Christ's Similitude of the Kingdom of Heaven , as likened unto a King that had Compassion on his Servant , when he 〈◊〉 down and worshipped him , and forgave him all his Debt o●… ten thousand Talents ; and blasphemously renders God like the same Servant , in his Want of Patience towards his fellow Servant , taking him by the Throat and casting him into Prison for his hundred Pence , so that the Lord was wrath with this unmerciful Servant , and delivered him to the Tormentors , &c. See Mat. 18. 7thly , To represent God thus Cruel and Revengeful , either to Man or to Christ in his stead , as that he cannot otherwise pardon Sins past before Conviction ( without such a rigid Satisfaction or Payment ) is to deny him to be a Just God and a Saviour , when besides him there is no Saviour ; or as if to be a Saviour were inconsistent with his being a just God , contrary to his own plain Testimony ; See Isa. 45. 14 , 15. Chap. 43. 10 , 11 , 12. and 49. 26. and 63. 8. Jer. 14. 8. Hos. 13. 4. 1. Tim. 1. 1. Chap. 4. 10. Tit. 3 , 4 , 5. Jud. 25. And thus saith the Lord God ( unto the Seed of Jacob ) I , even I , am the Lord , and beside me there is no Saviour : I , even I , am he that blotteth out thy Transgressions for MINE OWN'SAKE , and will not remember thy Sins . Now our Opposer having justified the Wicked , and rendred God cruel ; we must now take a View of his condemning the Just One , for whose Dig●…ity I thus appear on the behalf of God and the Son of his Love. The Man having taken Pains to justifie such as have nothing but Matter of Condemnation in them ; Let us now take notice what Honour he hath ascribed unto the Son of God , and what Entertainment he allows him , while ( to justifie the condemnable ) he condemns him as with Wrath & Vergeance ( which some call Justice vindictive ) whereby he reckons , the Sins of the World were punisht in 〈◊〉 . He alledgeth Rom. 8. 32. He that spared not his own Son , but delivered him up for us all : What made God's Just●…ce lay on so ? Did Christ ever by Sin provoke to this ? Will God punish where there is no Sin ? This is an ocular Demonstration . Rep. God spared not his own Son from what he was to do and suffer , but delivered him up for us all ; yet not to his own Revenge or burning Wrath incurred by Sin , but to be a Sacrifice for Sinners : It could not be , that Christ should be the Subject of the Wrath that is due to Sin , he being the Mediator between God and Man that had sinned ; No more could the Act of those wicked Hands & Murtherers that crucified him , be counted an Act of Gods Justice , laying on so , as fully punishing the Sin of the World in the Son of his Love ; for this is contrary to his Mediatorship , and to his being a Sacrifice of a sweet smelling Savour to God , both for a Pacification and putting away Sin : It behoves a Mediator and Advocate , to be a Man of Interest and Favour with the King , and not an Object of his Hatred , else he could not prevail for others , if himself were so out of Favour . S. S. The Faith of a Believer that is justified can here see Justice punishing his Transgression , and that he is not justified without full Satisfaction to Justice ; God hath punished then the Sins of all that are justified in Jesus Christ. Rep. See here how the Man hath condemned the Just that never sinned , unto the Punishment due to Sin : See how he has thundred it out against Jesus Christ ; the burning Wrath and Hell-Fire incurred by Sinners , must now be Christ's Punishment : Oh , wonderful Justice ! there was never such divine Justice known or heard of from just Men or justified Persons , How God ever could be thus angry with his ever Beloved , Innocent Son , whom he both freely gave and upheld in his Love through all his Sufferings ; for God was in Christ , reconciling the World to himself , bearing , forbearing , and as sympathizing with him in Spirit in his Sufferings , wherein Christ , as Man , was accepted a most acceptable Sacrifice ; howbeit , his bearing the Sin of many , rasting Death for every Man , was not by Way of Revenge or Wrath from the Father , nor the Punishment due to the World's Sin ; for tasting Death is far short of eternally dying : The Prophet said , Surely he has born our Griefs , and carried our Sorrows , yet we did esteem him stricken , smitten of God and afflicted ; but he was wounded for our Transgressions ; he was bruised for our Iniquities ; the Chastisement of our Peace was upon him , Isa. 53. It was man's Transgression that was his Burthen and Cause of his Grief and Suffering ; however , some esteemed him smitten or plagued of God ; He hath born our Griefs and carried our Sorrows , &c. Such as suffer with Christ , and lie under the Sence of their Burthen do not lay all , both the Sorrow and Punishment O●… Sin upon Christ ; such do not say , Christ was sorry or repented for us , therefore we need not ; or , Christ was chastised and afflicted in our Person for us , therefore we need not be chastised nor afflicted ; for Sin past Christ made Intercession , therefore we need not pray : This were not to know the Fellowship of his Sufferings , nor to be conformable to his Death , nor baptized with his Baptism . Besides , the Chastisement of our Peace upon him , was not Revenge nor burning Wrath from God : Chastisement and Vengeance are two things ; God's Chastisement is in Love , not in Revenge ; it pleased the Lord to bruise him ( who had done no Violence ) Isa. 53. by delivering him up to suffer and bear our Sorrows and Griefs [ AN ACT OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE , NOT OF REVENGE OR WRATH ] how could it be Justice , fully to punish the Innocent for the Wicked's Offence ? Were it not Blasphemy to charge God with such Cruelty and Inj●…stice . Obj. Every known Sin is a wilful Rejection of Infinite Goodness , a free Choice of Infinite Displeasure , &c. It therefore carries Infinite Demerit with it ; and nothing short of Infinite Punishment , or Sufferings of Infinite Wrath , can possibly suffice to satisfie for it . Rep. Wo unto them that persist in Sin , and reject Christ's inherent or inward Righteousness for such a Satisfaction as this of Infinite Punishment , &c. or that believe , their Sins were thus punisht in Christ , and thereupon continue in Sin ! Wo unto you that thus justifie the Wicked & condemn the Innocent ! God's Controversie is against you : you are afflicting , oppressing and crucifying the Just with your Iniquities , treading under Foot the Son of God , rejecting the Blood of the Covenant , you are Guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ , as much as they were that condemned him , and said , he was Guilty of Death ; your Doctrine imputes the Sin , Guilt and Punishment thereof to Christ ; you have esteemed him plagued of God , but you have pierced him and grieved him by your Iniquity and Hypocrisie : Take Heed of wilful sinning , and rejecting the Goodness of God , lest there remain no more a Sacrifice for you : Repent , repent , repent ; Return , return , return to the Lord God , before his Wrath sweep you away into Perdition . Further he saith , None but God's Equal , and this is God himself in our Nature , that is capable to satisfie God for Sin — Christ received the Stroak of God's Justice , &c. Rep. While he states this Satisfaction to be only by Way of punishing men's Sin in Christ , and now it is God himself that satisfies God ; this is of an absurd and blasphemous Tendence , as if God punisht himself ; or as if God satisfied God with Infinite Punishment or suffering of Infinite Wrath : and what is this but to divide God against himself ? Yet we may find out a better Sense for the Words before , that God and Christ were one & inseparable in the Suffering & Affliction ; That his Soul bore , as the Spirit of God was burthened , afflicted and grieved under the Weight and Pressure of Man's Iniquity and Sin ; howbeit , this was not of the Nature of strict Payment , made to God by himself in Man's stead , much less to punish man's Sin in Christ with infinite Wrath. Quest. Can Faith and the Works that follow , without the Imputation of Christ's Sufferings satisfie God's Majesty for our Sin ? Answ. Here he misseth the true State of the Controversie or Question , which should rather be , Can your Imputation of Christ's Sufferings without true Faith and the Obedience ( or Works thereof ) either satisfie God's Majesty for Sin , or justifie Men ? while he implies No , he hath given away his Cause , by granting , That the Sufferings of Christ alone can not justifie Men without true Faith and Obedience to him . By so much was Jesus made the Surety of a better Testament , Heb. 7. 22. This is no Proof that your Sins were imputed to him , as punish'd in him by the suffering of Infinite Wrath , which to affirm , renders him no better then a Transgressor , guilty of your Sins ( as your Brother T. D. hath affirmed ) which is much beneath his being Mediator or the Surety of the new Testament , which he was made the Surety of , to ensure and make good the Promises and Priviledges thereof to true Believers ( which are all Yea & Amen in him ) and to enable us to obey and perform those Terms and Conditions of the new Testament or Covenant , which concern us ; for we cannot receive the Promises but in him , nor discharge or pay our Duty without him ; therefore he is the Mediator of the new Covenant ; he is our high Priest , made with the Oath of God , and continueth forever ; and he is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him , seeing he ever liveth to make Intercession for them , Heb. 7. 24 , 25 , 28. But if God's Justice be fully satisfied for your Sins by the Sufferings of Christ , and for them only God justifie men , and secure them from Condemnation [ It being against Justice it self to punish those Sins a second time , that have been punisht to the full already ] he saith , How then shall God render to every Man according to his Works ? Indignation and Wrath to them that are contentious & obey not the Truth , but obey Unrighteousness ; Will they be able to plead this Doctrine before his Tribunal , Lord , thou hast punisht our Sins to the full in thy Son Christ : It is against Justice it self to punish them a second time ; for Christ dyed for all Men , tasted Death for every Man , gave himself a Ransom for all for a Testimony in due Time ? But if this were a Punishment of their Sins to the full , then how could Justice punish them again with Indignation & Wrath ? But Glory , Honour & Peace to them that do Good , to the Jew first , and also to the Gentile , to them that through Patient continuing in Well-doing , seek for Glory and Immortality eternal Life : see Rom. 2. Such do not plead Christ's doing Good and suffering only for them in his Person to justifie and excuse them in Sin in their Persons , or to cloak their doing Evil all their Life long , though Sin-pleasing Hypocrites thus endeavour to indulge themselves and others in their Iniquities : But be not deceived , God will not be mocked ; such as you sow , such shall you reap . Whereas S. S. accuseth G. W. with saying Satisfaction is not needfull ; Quoting , Divin . of Christ , pag. 62. And then cryes ; Such Blasphemy is this Man not affraid to utter ; the Lord Convince and Humble him . To thee S. S. I say , Thou hast wronged me ; those are none of my Words ; the Lord humble thee for thy belying me , thi●… is not the first time : If thou or any Reader , do but moderately view my Book and Page quoted by thee , it will plainly appear , that to say , Satisfaction is not needfull , are none o●… my Words ; for t is very plain , that I have not denyed , that Satisfaction that was in Christ ; but have objected aga nst the manner of their stating it , and sinful tendence of their Notion about it : as 1st , Against their making Satisfaction the Effect of God's full Revenge , or the Execution of Vindictive Justice ( as their Phrase is ) on his Innocent Son , thereby to clear the Guilty . 2dly , I have distinguished between God's Chastisement and Revenge . 3dly , That the Intent and End of God's Peoples undergoing his Chastisements or Correction ( according to Jer. 10. 24. Heb. 12. 9 , 10 , 11. And their partaking of the Fellowship of Christ's Sufferings ) is that they might be Partakers of his Holiness , live and reign with him . 4thly , I have plainly told my Opposers , That if Man continue in Rebellion against Christ , rejecting his Love and Grace , his Sufferings and Satisfaction will not free them from the Severity of God , nor from the Execution of his Judgment , which is committed t●… Christ , &c. Divin . of Christ , p. 62 , 63. The Truth of what I have written in the said Book in the Plaineness and Simplicity of it , stands over the Subtility of my Opposers , and remains unanswered ; and instead of an honest or moderate Answer , this Man does but pervert , curtaile , tautologize , nibble and pick at my Words , and abuse me ; He doth not so much as seriously take notice of the stress of my Objections , but over and over imposeth his Opinion , and brings a very unfit Instance for God's judging it meet to punish all Sin ( or that all our Sin is punished ) in his Son without Cruelty , &c. where he saith , If God doth damn the Impenitent , if he damns the fallen Angels , he is cruel . We say , No ; he is Just : But is this and his punishing your Sins in his Son to the full , a fit Parallel ? Let the unprejudiced Reader judge . And then he grosly imposeth and begs the Question again , viz. And for that person who is God , to suffer a temporal Death ( though in his human Nature only ) this is of infinite Value , an infinite Abasement , a stroke of Infinite Wrath ; for had not God's Wrath against Sin been Infinite , he would not thus have struck a Person of infinite Worth and Dearness to him , interposing as a Surety between him and us miserable Sinners : for ●…od in our Nature to suffer what he did , this is more then for Men or Devils , to suffer God's Eternal Wrath or Revenge ; this Wrath more clearly shines in the Infinitude of it in thus smiting * the Brightness of his Glory and Express Image of his Person * then in the eternal Damnation of Men and Devils in the unquenchable Flames of Hell. Rep. This strange Language against God and Christ , I shall need to ●…ay little about ; let them that know the holy Scriptures see how unlike them it is ; only I may query and demand of him , 1st , Where do the Scriptures say , That God suffered a Temporal Death as a Stroak of Infinite Wrath ? 2dly , That in Infinite Wrath he struck a Person of Infinite Worth and Dearness to him . 3dly , That this Wrath more clearly shines in the Infinitude of it in thus smiting the Brightness of his own Glory , &c. then in the Eternal Damnation of Men and Devils , &c. If I should conclude this both Blasphemous and Unscriptural Language , that thus sets God at variance with himself , or as smiting and punishing himself , &c. S. S. perhaps would be ready to cry out , Oh Blasphemy ! and charge it upon me , though it be his own , the very Tendence & Nature of his own Doctrine : The Matter is fully answered and refuted before . Again , Where do the Scriptures say , that God punished the Surety , Christ , for our Sins , and for a time poured forth his Wrath upon him for our Iniquities ? p. 108. I am sure the Scripture he cites , sayes the contrary of him , Isa. 42. 1. viz. Behold mine Elect in whom my Soul delighteth . Could he then pour forth his Wrath upon him for your Iniquities ? Oh! be ashamed of such Doctrine ; Could either the Chastisement of our Peace on him , his bearing the Sin of many , or carrying our Griefs , be the Father's pouring forth Infinite Wrath upon him ? That it is for Christ's sake that God doth pardon upon Repentance , is very true ( 't is well he Grants this upon Repentance ) and it is for Christ's sake ; for all the Good that is revealed or wrought in us , that is acceptable to God ( as true Faith , Repentance , Obedience , real Righteousness , &c. ) is all of Christ , and brought forth by him in that Soul that is pardoned and Justified in him , or accepted in the Beloved : But , how God's Forgiveness of the ●…ebt , or Pardon of the Offences , agrees with the Surety's full Payment and Suffering the Punishment & Wrath deserved , I leave to the understanding Reade●… to judge . Or , how Christ should make Intercession for them that come unto God by him , if all their Debt were payed and Punishment undergone , appears not ; especially where the Surety's Payment and Suffering is supposed in this case to be Infinitely of more Value then if the Debtor himself had payed and suffered all , because of the Surety's Infinite Dignity ; and when , if the Payment and Satisfaction of Law were thus strictly and severely made , neither Law nor Justice could admit that the Debtor should lye in Prison ( as many do under Satan's Chains of Darkness , lyable to Wrath and Vengeance ) but he should be both discharged and delivered ipso facto ? But we see it otherwise : Many are yet in the Prison-House in Satan's Chains , who yet may be loosed ; and Christ ever lives to make Intercession for them that come unto God by him . The Man mends not the matter in what follows . Obj. Christ Having purchased Salvation for us at the Hands of Justice by his Intercession , he Obtains the Purchase at the Hands of free Grace , and so applies it to us . Rep. Oh strange ! Justice ( or rather Revenge ) fully paid & satisfied , but Grace yet to be so much interceded or solicited to ; this renders Grace more Severe then the Condemnation of the Law , and Inferiour to Revenge . And what Division would this make in God ( and between Christ and Grace ) ? it renders him Inferiour to Earthly Princes , and his Grace below Common Justice among Men ; For supposing , a Subject had forfeited his Inheritance to his Prince by Rebellion , and after a full Satisfaction and Payment made to the Prince in his stead by a Person of Intrest with him , Could it be Just in the Prince to detain his Inheritance from him ? Or Suppose , the Surety hath made full Payment and Satisfaction in the Debtors stead , both to what Law and Severity could demand ; Could the Creditor justly detain the Debtor in Prison for some great and ear●…est Solicitation to be made by his Surety for him ? Or , were it proper for the Person for whom the Satisfaction is thus made , to cry out , Good Sr. forgive me my Debts , &c. if all past , present and to come be fully payed by the Surety ? And yet those Persons that are of this Opinion pray to God , to forgive them their Trespasses or Debts as they forgive others , &c. but is their forgiving of Debts , either a Casting the Debtors or their Sureties into Prison till they have payed the uttermost Farthing ? Surely that is not Forgiveness . ; whereas the Intercession made to God doth acknowledg his Dominion , Power and Justice , as having been offended , and a Subjection due to him ; and also his Grace , as that which Man oweth due Obedie●…ce and Respect to : Notwithstanding , this man , who has pleaded such a kind of Satisfaction , by Justice or Wrath punishing their Sins in Christ , he is not only Rigid or Severe , but Partial in his Opinion ( like a Sect-Maker ) limiting this Satisfaction and the Extent of saving Grace only to a few ; and yet that few not allowed the Priviledge , to be delivered from the Being of Sin in this Life . In his saying , That This Satisfaction was designed for all them , who through special Grace in time believe ; these all are delivered here from the Guilt and reigning Power of Sin , and so are out of their Fetters , and shall hereafter be delivered from the Being of Sin. Rep. That Satisfaction that was made , and Testimony of God's Love and Mercy that was given by the Sacrifice and Death of Christ ( and as he is the Propitiation ) it was for ALL Men ; by the Grace of God he tasted Death for every Man , for the Sins of the whole World ; he dyed for ALL MEN ( not only Presbyterians or a few particular Predestinarians , but all Men or Mankind in general ) That as many as live , should not live unto themselves , but unto him that dyed and rose again , 2 Cor. 5. 15. Who his own self bare our Sins in his own Body on the Tree , that we being Dead unto Sin , should live unto Righteousness , 1 Pet. 2. 24. And see verse 21 , 22 , 23. It is plain , that Christ's Suffering under the Burthen of Sin , and Dying for all Men , pointed at an other End , and had another kind of Embleme in it , then Mens living in Sin all their Dayes , or their not expecting Freedom from the Being of Sin till after Death ; this is not to suffer or dye with Christ , nor to come to the Blood of Sprinkling , which only frees from the Guilt of Sin , by sprinkling and purging the Conscience from the Being of it : The Ignorance and Absurdity of the contrary Sin-pleasing Doctrine is sufficiently detected before . And why [ Presbyterians ] Satisfaction of Revengeful Wrath in your stead , or the Death of Christ , as Satisfaction in your stead , to free you from everlasting Burning , and forgive your Sins ? Why for you more then the whole World besides ? Did not Christ dye for all Men as well as you ? And yet none are pardoned or in a justified State , until they come Christ to ease them , and they to have true and living Faith in his Name and Power , and so to be led by that eternal Spirit , by which he offered up himself a Lamb without Spot to God. Obj. Nor can this Writer nominate one of us , that encourageth Men to take Liberty of sinning from the Consideration of Christ's Satisfaction — the Lord convince and humble Slanderers . Rep. What ever you think or pretend , your Doctrines are Sin-pleasing , and give Liberty therein ; your disputing for Imperfection and Sin all your Dayes ; your justifying the Sinner or the Unjust , while justly condemned in himself by the Light of Christ ; your setting sorth Christ , as made the Subject o●… God's Wrath and Revenge in your stead , and saying , that divine Justice ( which you term vindictive or revengeful Wrath ) was satisfied in your stead , by punishing your Sin to the full in Christ , and that thereby you are secured from Hell , &c. though you continue in Sin , or uphold the Being of it all your Dayes , and deserve to have your Failings and Infirmities cast as Dung into your Faces ( as is confest ) and yet you count your selves imputatively Righteous , pardoned and justified , &c. even while you are saying , Let us with Paul abhor all Sanctification in us , &c. S. S. p. 102. Let us place no Confidence in Sanctification , &c. p. 103. The very Nature and Tendence of these and such Doctrines is Sin-pleasing , and soothing , and grateful to Hypocrites , encouraging them to take Liberty of Sinning all their Life time , if they can but be so credulous or self-confident , as to believe they are Elect Persons , and secured from Damnation on the Account of your Notion of Satisfaction , that pretends and imputes Revengeful Wrath and Severity to Christ , but Ease to your selves in your Sins : But this your empty , devised Notion will prove neither your Justification nor Security in the great approaching Day of God , which shall declare every man's Work , & wherein he will judge the Secrets of Men by Christ Jesus , according to the Gospel ; and every Man must give an Account of himself to God , and be Rewarded according to the Deeds done in the Body , whether they be Good , or whether they be Evil , AN APPENDIX , Wherein The Controversie is summed up and resolved , partly by Way of Question and Answer , with a plain Intimation of my Sense thereof , as relating unto the 2d , 3d and 4th Chapters before . Quest. 1. WHat was the Nature and Extent of Christ's Sufferings ? Answ. Not an undergoing infinite Wrath or vindictive Justice ( so called ) at the Hands of his Father ( for that is the just Reward of Rebels against God , Christ and free Grace ) but , 1st . The Weight and Burthen of Sin and Grief of Soul because thereof , as seeing the Punishment and Wrath incurred by the Rebellious . 2. The Fury of his Persecutors , in his undergoing that cruel Death of the Cross , inflicted on his Body by wicked Hands and Murtherers ; so that his Sufferings were two-fold , both inw●…ard and outward . 3. His real Desire , Travil of SouI and good Will through all , was for the Benefit and Good of all Mankind , even for the whole World ( for whom he suffered and dyed ) that all ( who receive him ) might be spiritually influenced with his holy Life , and partake of his Mind and Will , which stood in subjection to the Father . Quest. 2. What was the true Signification , Intent and Ends of Christ's Sufferings ? Answ. 1. To evince God's long Suffering towards all men ( for whom Christ gave himself a Ransom for a Testimony in due Time ) 2. The Appeasement of Wrath and Severity , so far as to grant Remission on true Repentance . 3. The End of the Law and first Covenant , and the Shadows and Curse of it ( as threatned to impose the Terms of it ) 4. To introduce the new-Covena●…t Administration , Christ being the Mediator of it . 5. To shew God's great Condescension to receive poor lost Man again on the Terms of this new Covenant , reinforced by the Death of his Son , that Man coming into this new Covenant , he might experience a real Agreement with God , even in the Son of his Love. Quest. 3. How far the Light in Man is necessary , and answers the Intent and Ends of Christ's Sufferings ? Answ. It is absolutely necessary to Salvation , being that divine Principle of Light within , which directly guides all them that obey it , into the Way and Dispensation of the new Covenant , whereby they secretly experience the real Intent , Virtue and Ends of Christ's Sufferings and Blood. Quest. 4. Whether the Light of Christ within ( in each Degree of it ) be not the New-Covenant Light in Nature and Kind , and the certain Guide into this Covenant ? Answ. It is ; being it was the Life that was in Christ ( as the eternal Word ) that was and is the Light of Men ; which Life or Light is therefore divine and spiritual , as the New-Covenant Dispensation is . Quest. 5. Whether the Word within , the Law within , the Commandment within , the Kingdom of God within and the Light within , be not one and the same thing , and so the Life of the New Covenant ? Answ. They are : The Names , Degrees and Manifestations do not alter or vary the divine Nature or Life thereof . Quest. 6. The Satisfaction , what ? and in what did it consist ? Answ. 1. Not rigid Payment from Christ to God. 2. Not of the Nature of Payment , for all Sins past , present and to come ( as stated by Sin-pleasers ) 3. Not Christ's undergoing infinite Wrath or Revenge from his Father ( for these were never exacted nor required of him ) But the Satisfaction was in Christ , as the Son of the Father's Love , the Delight of his Soul , and as he was a Sacrifice of a sweet smelling Savour to him ; both the Father and the Son condescended in one and the same Infinite Love for Man's Recovery out of Sin and Death , and for his Deliverance from Wrath to come , being confessed to be equally kind to Man , and equally angry at Man's Sin ) God so loved the World , that he freely sent his only begotten Son , &c. And in the same Love the Son freely gave his Life , yea , even himself a Ransom for all , for a Testimony in due Time. Quest. 7. What is true Justification ? Answ. It is properly and strictly a making Man Just ( viz. through the Washing of Regeneration ) It is also not only God's pardoning Sins past for Christ's sake , through Faith in his Name ; but also God's absolute accepting , owning and blessing all them who faithfully obey , persevere and walk in the Light and Law of the new Covenant . Q. 8. What is the true or real Imputation of Righteousness ? Answ. It is the same with Justification ( as it relates to God's reckoning or esteeming that Man Righteous that partakes of the everlasting Righteousness of Christ by a living Faith in him ) and so the same Righteousness and Holiness of Christ as inwardly revealed and brought forth in the new Creature that is made conformable to his Image ; and so all the blessed Fruits and Effects of Christ's Power and inward Work of Righteousness , as true Faith , Love , Obedience , Sincerity , Holiness , Integrity of Spirit to God , are acceptable to him , accounted of and reckoned unto his People for Righteousness , and all still for Christ's sake , who is the Author and Finisher of true , living , saving , justifying Faith ; as , Abraham believed God , and it was reckoned to him for Righteousness ; We say then , that Abraham's Faith was so reckoned or imputed to him : It has been by some confest ( as between God and the Creature ) That there can be no liking one another without Likeness of Disposition ; nor doth God receive Man into actual Friendship with himself , without being renewed after his Image . Quest. 9. Who are the Subjects of everlasting Wrath and Vengeance ? Answ. Wicked and Rebellious Persons , who reject the Love of the Truth tendered to them , such as tread under Foot , crucifie or contemn the Son of God , sleight the Blood of the Covenant , and do Despite to the Spirit of Grace . Quest. 10. Whether it consists with divine Justice or Truth in God , to shew Mercy and to be an absolute Saviour , after so much Injury done against him and his Commands by Adam's Fall , and the actual Disobedience of his Posterity in the Fall ? Answ. Yes ; It is not inconsistent with divine Justice , sor God to be the absolute Saviour of all that return to him and believe in him , he being a just God and a Saviour , besides ( or without ) whom there is no Saviour : Absolute divine Justice in God doth not limit him , nor withold Mercy from the Creature in the first Place ; nor doth it produce Severity or Revenge , until his Goodness be rejected and wholy slighted ; for he saith plainly , I am a just God and Saviour , &c. I , even I , for my own sake do pardon Transgression . Quest. 11. Whether Divine Justice did properly and strictly require a full Payment and Punishment upon Christ in man's stead , for all the Debt contracted , and Injury done by fallen Man ? Answ. No ; Christ's Sufferings were not of that Nature or Intent ; but as it was by the Grace of God that he tasted Death for every Man : They shewed God's Patience , and proclaimed his Mercy , in Order to pardon all that return to him from the Evil of their Wayes . Quest. 12. Whether God as Rector and Judge , could dispense with the Act of Law , and not rather with the immediate Object ? Did he not substitute an Innocent Person to undergo the Punishment or Severity of the Law due to Sin and Sinners ? Rep. This is objected by some of our Opposers , which m●…st needs imply a great Dispensation with , and Digression from the very Intent of the Law : If the severe Punishment of it be removed from the Unrighteous ( for whom it was made , and who have incurred it ) and fully inflicted upon Jesus Christ , the Righteous One that never Sinned , Could God thus far dispense with the Intent of the Law , and yet not forgive Sin , without such a kind of Satisfaction and Payment supposed ? Oh , sad Blasphemy and Inconsistency ! And seeing it hath been confessed by some of our Eminent Opposers , that Satisfaction is not a Scripture-Phrase but a Notion of Law , and made agendo & patiendo , viz. by Christ's Obedience in Doing , and Subjection in Suffering the Penaltey , which the Law should have inflicted upon Offenders , I propose these three Questions to our Opposers . Q. 1. Were it Reasonable or true to say , the Creditor has forgiven both the Debt and Injury , if it be all paid and fully punished in the Surety ? Q. 2. Were it Justice in the Creditor to detain the Debtor in Prison , if his Debts be all paid by the Surety ? or to suffe●… the Surety to wait long soliciting or interceeding for his Pardon or Deliverance ? Q. 3. Doth not your Doctrine of such Rigid or Severe Satisfaction oppose Christ's Intercession ? Howbeit we still confess , the Man Christ was greatly acceptable and most eminently satisfactory , considered as a Sacrifice of a sweet smelling Savour to God , and as the first Fruits . Quest. 13. What did the Blood of Christ that was shed , bespeak ? and what is our Sense of Christ's Blood ; and for what End owned ? Ans. 1st , It did bespeak Remission of Sin past to all that truly repent and believe in him . 2dly , Our Sense of the Blood of Christ is a living and spiritual Sense of the Virtue and Efficacy of it , as through it we receive Redemption , even the Forgiveness of Sins . 3dly , We really own and confess to the Blood of Christ , both in the History and in the Mystery , as most significant to express his Life which he gave a Ransom ; and the Value of the one Offering , we do in the sight of God confess , and own the Blood of Christ both as shed for us , and as sprinkling and purging our Consciences from dead Works : And this We are come to know by his Light shining in our Hearts , which as we walk in [ the Light ] we have Fellowship one with another , and the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all Sin , 1 Joh. 1. 7. Heb. 9. 14. To come to the Blood of Sprinkling ( which speaketh better things then that of Abel ) is an Attainment and Mystery , only obtained by true Believers , in and through his divine Light and Eternal Spirit , by which Christ offered himself without Spot to God ; and by One Offering God hath perfected sorever them that are sanctified , whereof the holy Ghost is a Witness to us , Heb. 10. 14 , 15. For if a Literal Knowledge and Application of the Blood , could either Sanctifie or Justifie without having the Conscience sprinkled with it , then how could it be as the AntiType answering and ending the Type or Pattern under the Law , where all the People were sprinkled with the Blood of the Offerings ? see Heb. 9. and 10. Chap. And the Leaper was cleansed by seven times sprinkling upon h●…m the Blood of the Bird that was killed , Lev. 14. 6 , 7. but the Blood of Christ , which sprinkles and purgeth the Conscience , far excels all those under the Law ; and therefore , as it redeems from the vain Conversation , 't is called the Pretious Blood of Christ , as opposed to , and beyond all Corruptible things , 1 P●…t . 1. 18 , 19. Thus in the Blood of Christ there is a Mystery , and a spiritual Consideration and Application , absolutely necessary beyond the Historical Profession and Faith thereof ( as well as in the Cross , &c. ) as Christ said , Except ye eat my Flesh and drink my Blood , ye have no Life in you , Joh. 6. It is the Spirit that quickneth , &c. The holy Ghost is Witness to us of the Virtue and blessed Effect of the One Offering ; Blessed be the Name of the Lord our God forever , who by his divine Light hath opened our Understandings in the Mystery of Christ Jesus and the saving Knowledge of him which is after the Spirit . All these Scriptures relating to Christ's Sufferings , as Isaiah 53. Zach. 13. 17. Rom. 8. 32. Phil. 28. 2 Cor. 5. 14 , 15 , 21. Gal. 3. 13. and 4. 5. Heb. 2. 9. do all intimate God's great Kindness and Condescension in Christ Jesus , and his Humiliation , and deep Suffering under the Weight and Burthen o●… Sin ; and as by the Grace of God he tasted Death for every Man : all which fall greatly short of proving our Adversary's ●…harge against him , viz. That God poured down his Wrath or Revenge upon his Innocent Son , for Satisfaction to divine Justice in Man's stead that had done the Injury : I say , all the Scriptures alleged by them , can never prove this ; but rather , 1. That Christ's Sufferings were of another kind , both as he was delivered up by the Father , in his Patience to suffer and bear the Burthen , Sorrows and inward Griefs , by reason of man's Sin , for which his Soul also was made an Offering . 2. And as the Reproaches , Suffering and Death of the Cross that he sustained from the Wicked & Murtherers , were temporal or had an End ; and not as infinite Wrath and Revenge from God , due to wicked Men. 3. Yet Christ was rendred a Curse , and as made to be Sin ; This he could not properly be a in his own being for Sin , and a Curse ( in this abstract Sense ) couldnot strictly relate to his pure and sinless being ; but so made or reputed with respect to his bearing the Reproach and Sin of many , the outward Punishment Crucifying , Death , and Blood-sheding : And all that was in him , which in any sense might be said to Suffer , was offered and given for the Advantage and Good of Mankind ; and that which he so gave and offered , was called his Life , Himself , a Ransom , and all some times in Scripture comprehended and expressed under the Phrase The Blood , the pretious Blood of Christ , that redeems from the vain Conversation , purgeth the Conscience , &c. and even the outward part of his Suffering , most Innocent Example , his Cross , Death , Blood of his Cross , his reviving again , were so far from yielding either an Indulgence or justification to men as in Sin and Disobedience , that they did very eminently preach and openly proclaim to Mankind , both the Condemnation of Sin in the Flesh , Repentance , Mortification , Remission , and Man's reviving again to real Righteousness and Justification therein ; and all to be experienced through Faith in the Name and Power of Jesus Christ , the Son of the living God ; in sending of whom the Father's Love was manifest , that we might live through him . And , as Christ's Travil of Soul was inward , and so his Suffering inward , as well as outward , what is more obvious to the spiritual Eye and Mind , then that his Travil and Sufferings , and his holy Design therein , were to have an inward Effect , and inwardly to be fulfilled by his Word and Power , even in them who receive and believe in the same ? as that Instance of the holy Evangelist is very plain and pertinent , where 't is said , They brought unto him many that were possessed with Divels , and he Cast out the Spirits with his Word , and healed all that were Sick , that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the Prophet , saying , Himself took our Infirmities , and bare our Sicknesses ; see Ma●… . 8. 17. Isaiah 53. 4. And moreover , as to Christ's being the Lamb of God , that taketh away the Sins of the World ; This taking away the Sins was not only fulfilled by that general Expiation or purging ( which he made ) by Way of Sacrifice ; but also inwardly by his real Cleansing , purging the Conscie●…ce , and purifying the Soul from the Nature and Being of Sin. And God's Reconciling us by the Death of his Son , whose putting away Sin , is said to be by the Sacrifice of himself , his [ by himself ] purging our Sins , the Will of God sanctifying us through the offering of the Body of Jesus Christ once for all , &c. as being a Sacrifice of far more Value then those Typical ones under the Law , which he fully answered and ended , though they were said to make Attonement & Reconciliation for Sins of Ignorance , that they might be forgiven ; and the Scape-Goat to bear away the Iniquities and Transgressions of the Children of Israel , Lev. 4. & 16. & 23. ( And did not the killing and sacrificing of Bulls , Goats and Heifers typifie or figure forth the killing and destroying that corrupt , beastly Nature and Enmity in man , which is for Death and Destruction , and which those Beasts were as a lively Embleme of ? ) Seeing hereby God was pleased in a Way of Condescension to their low Capacities , to shew a Pacification or Expiation , to express his Forbearance , suspending the severe Execution of the Law , and Willingness to pardon Iniquity , and to pass by former Transgressions , and be reconciled , when they afflicted their Souls , and offer'd up burnt-Offering in the Day of Attonement [ as both were required ] much more hath God declared himself reconciled to us , in commending his Love , to us in that while we were Enemies , Christ dyed ; and so he hath shewed forth his Kindness and free Love , as willing to pass by and pardon the Sins of the World upon true Repentance , in his setting forth his Son to be a Propitiation , through Faith in his Blood ; and in his being in Christ reconciling the World unto himself , not imputing their Trespasses unto them , which was both in his Forbearance , commending his Love and Good-Will in his Son unto the World , and sending his Son that the World through him might be saved . Let it be seriously here minded , 1. That those Scriptures relating to Christ's Death , Reconciliation , Sanctification , and putting away Sin , as by Way of Sacrifice , &c. as Joh. 1. 29. Rom. 5. 10. Heb. 10. 10. Chap. 1. 3. Col. 1. 22. which intimate the Work , as if universally done ; yet it is with respect unto the general Favour and Good-Will of God in Christ , as by the which Will , we ( Believers ) are sanctified through the Offering of the Body of Jesus ; and so we are said to be reconciled in the Body of his Flesh through Death : Withall note , that it was the manner of the Hebrews , Prophets and Apostles , to speak many Things in the Spirit of Prophecy , as done or past before they were accomplished in the proper Subjects , God having an Eye of Pitty and Compassion open to lost Man for his Redemption , even before it was fulfilled , whereby he saw and lookt beyond the former Transgressions , Sins and Infirmities ; for the Sin of the World is not actually taken away , purged out or put away , as to its Nature and Be ing ( nor are Men in a State of Reconciliation or Friendship ) while actual Sinners and Enemies in their Minds , but as they come to be converted and sanctified by the Spirit : Therefore God's reconciling the World in and by his Son , shews his gracious Will , and was intended conditionally to be fulfilled in them ( viz. Upon Faith and Obedience ) It was done so , as with respect unto Christ as the first Fruits , and with an Eye to the Condition , before it was actually fulfilled in them ; and what was outwardly signified as to the Good of Man by Christ's Sufferings and Death in the Flesh , as our great Exemplar ( in his Obedience and Holiness ) is inwardly to be fulfilled and answered in Spirit , as to the Principle , End and Design of God therein : as for Instance , God was in Christ reconciling the World to himself ; yet the Apostle added , We pray you in Christ's stead , be you reconciled to God , 2 Cor. 5. 19 , 20. And to the Saints at Colos. You that were sometimes alienated , and Enemies in your Minds by Wicked Works ; yet now hath he reconciled in the Body of his Flesh through Death , to present you Holy , and Unblameable , and Unreproveable in his Sight , If ye continue in the Faitle grounded and setled , &c. Colos. 1. 21 , 22 , 23. Mark , on this Condition they were reconciled and to be presented to God ; Not as being Enemies and in wicked Works , But as made Friends by Conversion to and continuing in the Faith : And God shewing forth Mercy to all , and universal Pardon of Sin past , in and for the sake of his Son Christ Jesus ( he being the Propitiation for the Sins of the whole World ) declares his not imputing their Trespasses unto them according to Severity ; but his being reconciled to them , that they may be reconciled to him . Finally , Because God was in Christ reconciling the World to himself ; and because he commended his Love to us , while we were Sinners , and we reconciled , &c. by the Death of his Son , as our Representative : If from hence any infer , That their Sin being not imputed , therefore they are justified by the Imputation of Christ's Death and Blood , though they continue in Sin and Disobedience to him , and remain Unsanctified , I must deny their Consequence , and tell them , that there is a two-fold non-Imputation of Sin ; or , under a two-fold consideration Sin is said not to be imputed : 1st , with respect to God's Forbearance , while he suspends Execution , and doth not cut off 〈◊〉 in their Sins , when yet the Nature and Being of Sin is not destroyed , nor purged away , expecting their Repentance , &c. In this Sense David , when he said , I have sinned , Nathan to●…d him , The Lord hath put away thy Sin , Thou shalt not dye , 2 Sam. 12. 13. Yet this proves him not then at that time in an absolute and compleat Justified Estate , or his Sin blotted out ; for a●…ter this he both implored Mercy , intreated Forgiveness , and passed through great Judgment , Difficulty and Trouble , under the Weight and Burthen of his Iniquity . 2. A Non Imputation of Sin in a better and higher State , as where the Mi●…d and Spirit is sanctified and cleared , and Sin really done away and wholy blotted out , where the Lord Imputeth not Iniq●…ity , but Righteousness ; as , Blessed is he whose Transgression is forgiven , whose Sin is covered ; Blessed is the Man unto whom the Lord Imputeth not Iniquity , and in whose Spirit there is NO GUILE , Psa. 32. 1 , 2. It were unreasonable to think , that all to whom Sin is ●…ot imputed i●… the first Sense , are in a Justified State ; for then were the whole World Justified ; for God was in Christ reconciling the World unto himself , not imputing their ●…respasses : But in the latter Sense they are Justified , being Washed , Sanctified and Justified in the Name o●… the Lord Je●…us , and ●…y the Spirit of our God , 1 Cor. c. 11. and such as in w●…ose Spirit there is no Guile ; And so no Condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus , who walk not after the Flesh , but a●…ter the Spirit , Rom. 8. 1 , 2. Therefore Justification . And if it be further queried ( viz. ) Quest. How doth it consist with God's Justice and Truth ( which alwaies required perfect Obedience ) either to Pardon or pronounce Man Just upon the account of an Inh●…rent Righteousness , Sanctity or Reformation wrought by the Spirit , without Satisfaction to vindictive Justice for Sins past ; seeing those who are the most inherently Holy have not perfectly obeyed God s Law from the Beginning of Life to the End ? Answ. 1. Both God's Justice , Truth and Mercy have a share in Man's Reformation and Restoration to himself : and it is in his u●…iversal Love in Christ Jesus to Mankind , that he makes know●… his Truth that makes free ; and the Grace and Truth concurring in Man's Conversion and Restoration ( and so in making him a New Creature ) it must needs be consistent with God's Truth , to Pardon and pronounce Man Just , as ( he becomes and is ) God's own Workmanship , in whom he beholds his own Image renewed ; for he blessed the Works of his Hands , and still blesseth them . 2dly , Without such a Satisfaction he doth pardon , &c. And yet Justice and Truth are not violated nor destroyed , but have their place and share in Man's Reformation , both in God's Judging , Reproving and Correcting Man for Sin , Co●…demning , Crucifying and Slaying the Transgresfing , Earthly Nature and Birth : and Christ came not to destroy , the Law , but to fulfil it ; He came to condemn Sin in the Flesh ( and to Save Man ) that the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in them , who walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit : The Law forbids Adultery ; Christ forbids and removes the Evil Lusts and Desires , which are the Ground of it : The Law forbids Covetousness ; Christ removes It : The Law forbids Murther ; Christ forbids Envy . 3dly , But , from the Beginning of Life to the End , who can say , he hath perfect Righteousness inherent in him ? Answ. He that is born of God , the New Creature , to whom Christ is made Righteousness , and who being God's Workmanship is made the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus ; He that is attained to this New Creature 's State hath crucified and put off the Old Man with his Deeds , whom the Law 〈◊〉 , that hath been the Offender and Sinner from the Beginning of Life to the End : as , The new Birth and new Cre●…ture in Christ , hath No Guile in his Spirit ; but is alwaies inwardly Righteous from the Beginning of Life . And that ●…or this End God is pleased in his Son , to shew forth his For●…earance and Favour to Mankind , and for a time to suspend the ●…evere Execution of his Law , as not to execute Judgment ●…peedily , but in giving Man Grace and Space to Repent , be Converted and Renewed in Righteousness , This answers the 〈◊〉 of his sending his Son into the World , to be both a Sa●…ice and a Saviour : So his Forbearance or Suspension of the ●…verity o●… the Law for Christ's sake , can be no making void 〈◊〉 Law , Justice or Truth , which Christ came to fulfil and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Difference between the Terms or Tenour of our Opposers Gospel and ours . I. AS to the Sense or Substance of our Opposers , the Predestinarians ( according to their Traditional Faith , partial , harsh Opinions , repugnant to God's universal Grace and Love in Christ Jesus to Mankind ) their Gospel runs on this wise , or in such Terms as these , viz. We tender Grace and Salvation to all ; but believe it is only free for a few Elect Persons , for whom only Christ dyed : Therefore believe you are Elect Persons , and that Christ dyed for you ; apply his Blood and Merits , and you shall be saved , though you be Sinners all your Dayes . Believe that you are Justified by Christ's Death and Sufferings only , though you have nothing but Matter of Condemnation in you ; believe that you are Imputatively Righteous by Christ's Sufferings and Righteousness without you only ; and in Comparison thereof , do you abhor all Sanctification in you , or inherent Righteousness wrought in you by the Spirit . Believe that it is God's good Pleasure , Sin should be in you all your Dayes , to keep you humble ; and that Christ hath satisfied for all your Sins past , present and to come . Believe that God hath poured out all his Wrath upon his Son Jesus Christ , and punisht your Sin to the full in him , to satisfie Justice for your Injury done him ; Therefore there remains no more Wrath behind for you , being Elect and Justified Persons : Though you commit Sin , as did David , and have Corruption remaining in you all your Dayes , and and daily Sin in your best Duties , and have Sin mixt with your Graces ; your Salvation is eternally secured for you , as Persons whom God has had in his Eye to save ; you need not fear any final Fall , or falling away from Grace , once in Christ and ever in Christ. [ Thus far Presbyterians ] II. The Sense and Terms of our Gospel , according to what follows . From the Sence and Experience we have of God's free Love and Grace in Jesus Christ to all Mankind , We preach in the Spirit of the Gospel ; The Instructions and Conditions thereof are on this wise : viz. Be converted that your Sins may be blotted out . Turn ye from Darkness and Sin to the true Light that shews It , and reproves Evil ; And so turn from Satan's Power to God , and receive the Remissions of Sins . Believe in the Light that ye may become the Children of Light. Labour to make your Calling and Election sure . If ye walk in the Light the Blood of Christ cleanseth from all Sin. If ye be Crucified , Dye and Suffer with Christ , ye shall Live and Reign with him . Believe and Obey the Gospel , and be saved . Christ Jesus is the Author of Eternal Salvation unto all them that obey him . Confess and forsake Sin , and ye shall finde Mercy . Depart from Evil and do Good , and dwell forevermore . Wash you , make you Clean , put away the Evil of your Doings , &c. Except a Man be born again he cannot enter in the Kingdom , &c. If I do not wash thee ( saith Christ ) thou hast no part with me . [ And to them in whose Hearts the Work is begun ] Look diligently to your Standing , lest any of you fall from the Grace of God. Abide in his 〈◊〉 , that you may not fall into the hand of Severity . [ To Unbelievers and Rebellious ] If ye believe not in Christ , you shall dye in your Sins ; and where He is ye cannot come . The Wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all Ungodliness and Unrighteousness of Men , who hold the Truth in Unrighteousness ; and his Wrath abides upon them that do not Believe nor Obey his Son. Thus far Quakers so called . Now , serious Reader , judge which of these , whether the Presbyterians or the Quakers Doctrine tends to stir up and excite People to Righteousness , to true Fear and Watchfulness : And whether the Presbyterians doth not tend to beget People into a Self-Confidence and false Liberty in Sin , upon a partial Opinion and Conceit ; But the Quakers Desire , Aim and End is , To turn People from Darkness to the true Light , and to true Fear , Diligence and Faithfulness to God. CHAP. V. Concerning ELECTION and REPROBATION . THE CONTENTS . A brief Introduction , with the Assemblies Opinion ; and Stephen Scandret's uncertain Proposition for it . His Abuse of divers Scriptures in his State of the Case for a personal Election , answered , and the Way of God's ●…hoosing resolved . The Weakness of his two first Arguments touching God's Decree and Promises . His gross Ignorance of those Names written in the Lamb's Book , Arg. 3. His Impertinency and ignorant Allegation and mis-understanding of divers Scriptures , concerning God's Choice and Ordination ; and the Cause of Mens Destruction opened , against Argum. 4. Persons being chosen proves not their Eternal Election ( as Persons ) Concerning Jacob and Esau ; Christ's Sheep , those that come , are drawn , and given unto him of the Father , Arg. 5 & 6. Election explained . God's loving Jacob and hating Esau ; their Posterities concerned therein : And how far the two Births were figured in Jacob and Esau. Our Opposers blasphemously placing a partial Resolution upon God ( as creating Persons with Intention to leave them to Destruction ) contrary to his universal Call and Tenders of Salvation . The Unchangeableness of God's Election in what State ; and our Opposers Ignorance and Error concerning God's Purpose . My unanswered Objection of setting Life and Death before Men , and warning them of Destruction . The Cause of God's hardning Pharoah , Judas and others , not grounded upon meer Will and Pleasure , but for their Rebellion . Touching the Fall of particular Angels and Men ; the Tendence of God's long-Suffering towards the Wicke●… , and my Opposer's Confession to Truth , to the ●…tter Overthrow of his Opinion . Presbyterians M●…ckery in their Warnings & setting Life & Death , conditional Promises and Threats , before People , contrary to their partial Opinion of an eternal personal Election and Reprobation . The sad Consequence of their accusing God with decreeing to deny saving Grace to particular Persons , yea , to the greater Part of Mankind ; shewing that divine Justice it self hath not so decreed . Grace differing from Debt . The Reason why God finds Fault with Men. The Question , Who hath resisted his Will ? resolved . Their urging all to for sake Sin , contradictory to their Opinion , and not in true Eaith . Their Flattering many with fair Pretences , contrary to their own Intentions ; the poor Encouragement and cold Comfort , that their Doctrine of a personal Reprobation yields to the greatest Part of Mankind . The wise God , the just Judge , is the Ordeiner of the Punishment , not of the Fact ; nor the Author of Sin , or their Wickedness who persecuted Christ. Hypocritical Priests , making and strengthning Hypocrites , by deceitfully daubing them up in their Sins , and flattering them with a [ You are not fallen from Grace ] while they are guilty of gross Wickedness . Concerning God's Convenant with David , and his Seed and the Mystery typified in him . To all which is added a short Postscript . A Brief Introduction TO The following Discourse concerning Election and Reprobation . STephen Scandret begins with an absolute false Charge against me , as Depraving God's Truth ; whenas according to plain Scripture , without any Depravation thereof , I examined their partial and graceless Opinion , as their making God the Ordeiner of whatsoever comes to pass ( both as to the States and Ends of Men ) and their placing his Decree thereof from all Eternity upon particular Persons , and no●… upon the two Seeds and Conditions , wherein Election and Reprobation do originally consist , which in time extends to Persons , only as related to the good or evil Seed , and not from a partial , absolute and meer voluntary Decree and Design to particular Persons , as their narrow and silly Opinion imports ; which I opposed , and that from the Scriptures of Truth , testifying , 1. God's Good-Will and Grace to Mankind in general . 2. The real Causes ( on their Parts ) of his Severity towards them and their Reprobation : I ●…aid down the Presbyterian Principle and Opinion , as it may be seen in their Confession and Catechism , agreed upon by their Assembly of Divines ( so called ) at Westminster , and approved by the general Assembly of the Kirk of Scotland ; as where they say in their 3d Chapter , That God from all Eternity did by the most wise and holy Counsel of his own Will , freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass * And that by the Decree of God , for the Manifestation of his Glory , some Men and Angels are predestinated unto everlasting Life , and others fore-ordained unto everlasting Death — and that these Angels and Men thus predestinated and fore-ordeined , are particularly * and unchangeably designed ; their Number so certain and definite , that it cannot be either encreased or diminished , &c. And also upon the same Principle , they add in their tenth Chapter , That all those whom God hath predestinated unto Life , and those only he is pleased effectually to call by his Word and Spirit ( out of the State of Sin and Death , in which they are by Nature ) to Grace and Salvation by Jesus Christ , enlightning their Minds , spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God , &c. And in their eleaventh Chapter , God did from all Eternity decree to justifie all the Elected ; and Christ did in the Fulness of time dye for their Sins , * and rise again for their Justification . The Consequence of this Doctrine , with a plain and scriptural Answer and Confutation , are laid down in the latter End of our Book , entituled , The Glory of Christ's Light within expelling Darkness , which Book yet remains unanswered by S. S. both as to this and other Heads , wherein he and his Brethren are concerned ; though now , in order to vindicate this Doctrine , he layes down the Proposition thus , S. Scandret , That God did most freely , and unchangeably , and from all Eternity choose some particular Persons to partake of saving Grace , &c. from whence it will necessarily follow , That he hath reprobated or passed by others : I must manifest this by Parts . Answ. In Opposition to this Partiality unjustly charged upon God , I must assert this Proposition , That God's eternal Election stands originally in his own Seed of Promise , and free Grace thereby freely tendered to all Mankind , both Jews and Gentiles , and all Men in the first place left free for a Share therein , and none are reprobated , but who first reject this Grace , and like not to retain God in their Knowledge ; his words [ that he hath reprobated or passed by others ] are very doubtful , being as much as to say , that either God hath from all Eternity reprobated particular Persons , or left them to Reprobate themselves : It is then either God's Act or the Creatures , which ( as appears ) this Man's Masters ( the pretended Divines ) could not resolve ; and we do not expect him to be a more pro●…ound Divine then his Tutors : However , their Opinion at least reflects upon God , as passi●…g by the greater part of Mankind without a●…ording them any Saving Grace , or the least Spiritual Assistance of Divine Light or Life ; so as if he thus takes no notice of them at all , but passeth by them , they must inevitably be left to Destruction and eternal Misery by this Graceless and Uncharitable Opinion , which tends greatly to ●…cclipse the Glory of God and his free Grace , and renders the Tenders of it to Mankind in general , and preaching Salvation by it conditionally to all , no better then a Mockery to the greater part of the World : And this neither S. S. nor his Assembly of Divines have answered , nor can they clear themselves herein . S. S. begins to vindicate his Opinion by parts thus : sect 1 1. God's Act , which Essentially takes in the Object thereof ; he hath chosen some particular Persons , 2 Thes. 2. 13. God hath Chosen you , Joh. 15. 19. I have Chosen you , Ephes. 1. 4. He hath Chosen us ; This being directly denyed , I shall add Arguments . Answ. The Scriptures are not denyed by me , as most falsely is here insinuated ; but I deny that these prove their Proposition for a Personal Election or Reprobation from all Eternity : as also I deny , that God ●…rom all Eternity did unchangeably ordein whatsoever comes to pass ( as they most grosly asserted ) or that his Decree or Act , is so absolute from all Eternity to particular Persons , as strictly eying and unchangeably designing each Person to his End ; a certain definite Number unto everlasting Life , and others to everlasting Death : This I still oppose , and find this Man's Vindication thereof very ●…eeble , and his Proofs impertinent . For that 2 Thes. 〈◊〉 . 13. He hath left out the following words ; after [ chosen you ] he leaves out [ through Sanctification of the Spirit , and Belief of the Truth ] which , as they clearly explain , how they were chosen to Salvation , even the Conditions on which God's Act of Chusing them depends , to wit , Sanctification of the Spirit , and Belief of the Truth : So this makes clearly against my Opposers Opinion , for they were not capable of this Belief of the Truth and Sanctification , before they had personal Beings , which sure they had not from all Eternity ; and so seeing the Way and Act of God's chusing Men , must be through Sanctification , and of the Spirit , and Belief of the Truth ( which Condition answers this Decree ) he hath not designed nor ordeined the contrary Condition ( of his Wrath against Man ) as Sin and Unbelief , though they are come to pass upon many , whose Repentance and Return God rather willed , then their Death or Destruction . But if S. S. might have pleaded a little further from the words , God hath from the Beginning chosen you , if he had insisted on the Words [ from the Beginning ] I might answer , That does not signifie from all Eternity ; much less that he hath had you particular Persons in his Eye , as unchangeably designing you to Salvation , meerly as particular Persons , without having Relation to any such Conditions or Qualifications , as Faith , Sanctification , &c. ( which may be rejected by Man ) 2. The Words [ from the Beginning ] are so far from signifying from all Eternity , that in this place they reach not so far as to the Time of the Beginning of the Creation ; but rather to the Time of their first Reception and Belief of the Truth , according as they import in divers other places , as 1 Joh. 3. 11. This is the Message that ye have heard from the Beginning ; and 2 Joh. 5. Though [ Beginning ] in the highest Sense , relateth to Christ ( as the divine Word ) who is the Beginning and the End. And also note , that S. S. deals with that of Joh. 15. 19. as he doth by the other , leaving out both the foregoing and following Words , which still make against him ; setting down only [ I have Chosen you ] whereas Christ said thus , Because ye are not of the World , but I have Chosen you out of the World , therefore the World hateth you , Joh. 15. 19. And then it is plain , they were both of and in the World , before they were chosen out of the World ; for could they be chosen out of that-which they were never in ? So that Christ's Chusing his out of the Corrupt Wayes and Spirit of the World through Faith and Sanctification , is the Reason why the World hates them , which it did not while they were Conformable to the World. By [ the World ] here is understood , those who are in the Natural , Unbelieving State , and also such as hate the true Believers and Disciples of Christ ; whence it follows , that you Presbyterians ( how highly soever you conceit of your selves as Elect Persons from all Eternity above all others , yet ) are not in the Election of Christ , nor in a State of Election so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Spirit o●… Persecution Rules in you ; as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shewed it self in many of your Leaders and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And to that of Ephes. 1. 4. He hath Chosen us 〈◊〉 him ; These words [ In him ] to wit , in Christ ) S. Scandret , hath left out , like one that both shuts his own Eyes , and seeks to keep others in a blind Belief of his partial Principle : The very Ground and Principle of Election being in Christ ( which the man overlooks ) God hath Chosen us ( the true Church , which is Elect ) in him , before the Foundation of the World , that we should be Holy and without Blame before him in Love , Ephes. 1. 4. For as we are in him , and become so well qualified in Holiness , and thus nearly related to him , as to be without Blame , in due time we shew forth the Effects and Fruits of that Elect Seed and Principle , wherein our Life and Ground of Election stood before the Foundation of the World ; not merely as we are particular Persons , or Natural men ; but as his living and Royal Of-spring , his Church and peculiar People sprung from his own Seed , now in due time chosen by him out of the World and the Corruptions thereof , through Sanctification of the Spirit , and Belief of the Truth . S. S. Arg. 1. Particular Persons in time , receive Mercy , are converted , sect 2 made to p●…rsevere are saved : Therefore God did Decree this beforehand ; for God worketh according to the Counsel of his own Will , Ephes. 1. 11. Answ. Particular Persons in time receiving Mercy , being converted , and persevering in Grace ; doth not argue that Mercy was but only proffered and shewed to a few particular Persons ; nor yet that it is so absolutely and Eternally Decreed of God , that all ( to whom Mercy and Grace is shewed ) shall so inevitably persevere in it , as that there is no Possibility of their Declension and Falling from it after the time of their receiving Grace , while yet unestablished ; for 1. He hath concluded all under Sin , that he might shew Mercy upon all . 2. Those particulars who sincerely receive Mercy and Goodness , upon them he will have Mercy , both in a way of Continuance and Increase , and unto them Goodness who abide in his Goodness , Rom. 11. 20 , 21 , 22. It is true , God worketh all things after the Counsel of his own Will ; his gracious and good Will counsels him to shew forth Goodness and Mercy to all in the first place , and Severity or Damnation to none without Cause : And his Will is alfo Believers Sanctification , in order to which he graciously counsels and perswades Men by his Spirit , to forsake Sin , and be converted ; which manner of working in Man by his Counsel , is not an inevitable or forceable Act of his Will ; for Counsel and Force are much different , as is a●… absolute Decree to Act himself alone , and a Perswasion of the Creature to Act with him , by the Power and Assistance that he gives it : So the Perswasion on Men to Repentance & Perseverance in Faith and Grace cannot be an irresistable Forcing them thereto ; for what Reward can Men expect of God for any thing they are unwillingly forced to ( as by some supposed ) whereas God works upon that Reason and Conscience which he hath placed in Man , to perswade , induce , and move Men to forsake Sin , from a real Sence of the Evil of it , that they may leave Iniquity from a true Zeal and Hatred ( stirred up by the true Light ) against it : I drew them with Cords of a Man , with Bands of Love , &c. Hosea 11. 4. S. S. Arg. 2. God hath made Absolute Promises of the first Saving Grace , Ezek. 26. 25 , 26. I will sprinkle clean Water upon you , and you shall be clean ; a new Heart will I give you , Chap. 11. 19 , 20. and he quotes Jeremy 31. 33. and Isai 54. 13. All thy Children shall be taught of the Lord. These Promises are but a Declaration of his Decree , and they are not made concerning all , but particular Persons whom God hath in his Eye to save . This Argument is grounded upon his Mistake , and is very dull and impertinent , as not reaching his Principle he intends to vindicate by it : For 1st , It imports absolute Promises of the first Saving Grace to be but to particular Persons . 2. That God had only a few particular Persons in his Eye , & that from Eternity in his Promise of the first saving Grace , contrary to plain Scripture , which sayes , The Promise is to you and your Children , and to all them that are afar off , even to as many as God shall call ; and this Promise is Christ Jesus , who is God's Everlasting Covenant and Light , to which Men are called . 3. This Man mistakes the first saving Grace , confounding it with the Effects of it ( which it brings forth where it is received and obeyed ) As mens being made Clean , having a new Heart , &c. Ezek. 36. 35. and Chap. 11. 19. which are Effects of the Grace ; these he puts for the first Saving Grace and Promise of it ; as also his blind Argument supposeth these Effect●… to be unavoidably or forceably brought forth in some particular Persons , supposed to be designed for that End , without respect to their accepting of , and Concurrence with the Tenders and Appearance of saving Grace ) which in the Light of Christ is given them ) whereas it hath appeared unto all Men , Tit. 2. 11. And the Promise of the Everlasting Covenant , though freely and absolutely tendered to 〈◊〉 ; yet as it is made with any particular Men and confirmed ●…o them , they are such as are serious and penitent , retur●…ing and obeying , and hearkning to the Voice of God , abiding in his Love and Grace , &c. upon which he enters into Covenant with them & they with him , both in the Agreement o●… Li●…e ; Hearken unto me , and I will make with you an Everlasti●…g Covenant , even the sure Mercies of David , Isa. 55. 2 , 3. The Willing and Obedient shall eat the Good of the Land , Cha. 1. 19. ( not the Unwilling and Disobedient ) And I wi●…l give them an Heart to know me , that I am the Lord , a●…d they shall be my People , and I will be their God ( mark the Reason ) for they shall return unto me with their whole 〈◊〉 , Jer. 24. 7. Note , that this was foretold or prophesied ●…rding to the Fore-Sight that God had of the Willingness and Compliance of his People with his Grace and Spirit , a●…er it was proffered and given to them , to invite , perswade and draw them ( as many other Prophecies are , which ●…elate to his everlasting Covenant , for its Establishment with the Creature , on these and the like Conditions ) which is not a forcing Men to Conversion , to have new Hearts , to be clean , &c. For Grace from God is given , and Love shewn Men , to perswade and induce them to Love & Good. Will towards God ; he loves them first , that they may love him ; he opens unto them a Fountain and pours clean Water upon them , that they may wash in ; he works in them to WILL and to DO , that they may obey him , and by his Power and Aid work out their Salvation with Fear and Trembling , Phil. 2. 12 , 13. He puts his Laws in their inward Parts , that they may read and meditate Day and Night therein ; he teacheth his People , that they may hear , and learn of him , and obey his Voice ; and the Ministers of the new Covenant that was promised , preached Obedience and exhorted Persons to the Obedience of the Spirit , and of the Son of God , he being the Author of Eternal Salvation to as many as obey him , Heb. 5. 9. not to them that presumptuously hazard their Salvation upon a lazy Expectation of being driven by some irresistible Impulse or forceable Motion of Power , beyond what they are capable of . Arg. 3. Persons by Name , are particular Persons ; but Go●… hath sect 3 chosen Persons by Name , Rev , 13. 8. All that dwell on the Earth shall worship the Beast , whose Names are not written in the slain Lamb's Book of Life from the Foundation of the World. Answ. What great Ignorance & wonderful Darkness doth his Man shew in this Argument , both of the Book of Life , and of those Names which are written in it ! which belongs to Men in the new-born State , as related to the Seed of Election , to every one that hath a new Name given him , having overcome Sin ; and not the traditional Names given to Persons by natural Parents : But this Argument makes no Difference between the Old Birth and the New , nor between the old Name and the new ; nor between the old Nature with its Name , and the new Nature & its Name ; but saith , Persons by Name , are particular Persons ; but God hath chosen Persons by Name , as if he should tell us , That S. Scandret , Nath. Barnard , Hen. Coleman , with the rest of ●…resbyterians are chosen Persons by these and such their Names from all Eternity ; and that these Names , S. Scandret and Nath. Barnard , &c. are written in the Lamb's Book of Life ) but George Whitehead , Ro. Ludgater , Geo. Witherly , with the rest of the Quakers , are reprobated by Name from all Eternity . But what then doth he imagine this Lamb's Book of Life is , and what is it made up of ? Ah Lord ! free poor Souls from such Ignorance , and deliver them from such blind Guides as this Man ; against whose dark Argument and partial Opinion , let them read Jer. 17. 13. O Lord , the Hope of Israel , all that for sake thee shall be ashamed , and they that depart from me shall be written in the Earth , because they have forsaken the Lord , the Fountain of living Waters : So here being signified a Possibility to fall ; and many do forsake and depart from the Lord , and because thereof to be written in the Earth ; therefore it follows , that if People abide with the Lord , he will both abide with them , and their Names shall not be blotted out of the Book of Life , nor shall they be written in the Earth : And this also evinceth , that they are not by Name , as particular Persons , either absolutely elected to Salvation , nor reprobated to Damnation , but on Condition of abiding with , or forsaking the Lord. Arg. 4. All that are chosen do infallibly believe in time , and partake of Christ's Righteousness , Acts 13. 48. As many as were ordeined to Eternal Life believed , Rom. 11 , 7. The Elect have obtained it ; therefore some particular Persons were elec●…ed ; for if all were Elected , all would infallibly believe , &c. Answ. This is also a very frivolous , dull and impertinent Argument , and wholy misseth the State of his Proposition and the Controversies between us : In the first place he begs the Question , while he intends it to particular Persons , as eyed , and absolutely designed particularly from all Eternity to Salvation , &c. whenas the Question is not , Whether those that are chosen ( through Sanctification ) do infallibly believe ? nor , Whether Election ( which i●… in the Seed ) doth not in due time extend to particular Persons ? For those Persons ( or People ) who are true Believers , are come into the Elect Seed , being ingrafted into the tr●…e Root , are in the Election which obtains the Inheritance : And as true Belief , Faith , and Obedience are the Terms , upon which Life Eternal is promised and received ; so on the same Conditions Life is freely te●…dered in the Son of God to all Man-Kind , yea , to the whole World : God so loved the World , that he gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting Li●…e ; for God sent not his Son into the World to condemn the World , but that the World through him might be saved , Joh. 3. 16 , 17. This plainly cuts off that Opinion of a secret Decree and absolute Design from Eternity against the greatest Part of Mankind for their Destruction ; for it cannot be consistent with him to have so decreed Damnation from all Eternity , ●…or those he ●…roffereth in time to save by his Son , upon Believing & Obeying ; and therefore , as to that of Acts 13. 48. some have it thus , And they believed , even as many as were ordeined ( or fitted ) for Eternal Life , which may not oppose Christ's Testimony before , Whosoever believeth on the Son , shall have Eternal Life ; which is promised , not as meerly respecting particular Persons , but that Condition on which 't is universally tendered , as namely , to be accepted in a living Faith and sincere Obedience : But some more Ingenuous , and as much learned as this Man , affirm , that the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is translated Acts 13. 48. ordeined , signifies well appointed , set in good Order , prepared or disposed : So as many whose Hearts were prepared or well-disposed ( viz. in a Willingness of mind and right Order of Spirit , having true Desires sor eternal Life ) believed as the good Ground , or honest Heart that received the good Seed , so as it took Root . And as when Lydia heard the A●…ostles , God opened her Heart , that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul , Acts 16. 14. And as Barnabas exhorted the People , that with Purpose of Heart they would cleave unto the Lord , Acts 11. 23. Here was a true Preparation in them , both for Believing and Eternal Life . And further , from that of Acts 13. 46. it is evident , that both the Word of the Lord was preached , and Life Eternal tendered to those Jews who rejected it , or put the Word of God from them , and judged themselves unworthy of Everlasting Life : Wherefore , surely God did not from all Eternity either absolutely design them ( as particular Persons ) to Damnation , or to pass them by for that End ; for he did not pass them by without taking notice of them ; but gave them notice of the Way of Life and Salvation , tendring it to them by his Spirit in his Messengers , which had been a Contradiction to himself , if he had from Eternity absolutely decreed the contrary : But the envious Jews opposing and rejecting the Word of God , judged themselves unworthy of Everlasting Life , wherein they rejected their Hope which was of the Lord , & therefore their Destruction was of themselves , whereupon Paul and Barnabas said , Lo , we turn to the Gentiles , for so hath the Lord commanded us , saying , I have set thee for a Light of the Gentiles , that thou shouldst be for Salvation unto the Ends of the Earth ; and thereupon the Gentiles were glad , &c. vers . 47. So that here was universal Grace and Salvation preached and tendered to all , as that which God had foretold and promised , who did not exclude any from the Benefit thereof ; nor was any hindred from Life and Salvation , but who excluded themselves , being such as judged themselves unworthy of Everlasting Life . Arg. 5. Jacob was a particular Person , and loved before he sect 4 had done any Good , according to God's Purpose of Election . Answ. He hath herein wrested the Scripture ; for it doth not say , that Jacob was then loved and Esau hated , before they had done Good or Evil ( as he renders the Words ) for then it may be asked , what he hated Esau for , before he had done Good or Evil ? Did he hate him for nothing ? Surely no ; but what was said before they were born , or had done Good or Evil , was by Way of Prophecy , The Elder shall serve the Younger ; what is this to their Eternal States ? Jacob had no need of Esau's Service in Hell. And then to the following Words , as it is written , Jacob have I loved , but Esau have I hated ; where was it written ? and how doth it relate to Jacob and Esau ? Doth it relate to them meerly as particular Persons , under such a Limitation of Election and Reprobation from Eternity ? or rather to their Posterities , as under such different Qualifications of Love and Hatred ? Could God absolutely determine to hate any particular Persons , meerly as Persons , without respect to either the good or evil Qualifications or Works , as before they had done Good or Evil ? This were blasphemously to render him in Enmity against his own Works , as if he had made Man , or forced him into the World unavoidably , to destroy a●…d damn him to all Eternity ; whereas the Mercies of God are over all his Works , a great and principal Part whereof is Mankind . And as for that which is written o●… his loving Jacob and hating Esau , it is in Malchie 1. Their Posterities were called by their Names , that People of the Edomites , who succeded Esau ( who was called Edom ) * both in Name and Nature , Gen. 36. 19. whom Men should call the Border of Wi●…kedness , which could not be , till they were wicked and ha●… acted Wickedness : These were they against whom because of t●…eir Wickedness ) God had ( and against such st●…ll 〈◊〉 , Indignation forever ; and hereupon his . Decree is ab●…olute against the Wicked , who are Rebellious against him , and reject his Grace by rebelling against his gracious Light and Spirit in them : And also it was said unto Esau ( as 〈◊〉 the Wicked of his Posterity , or the earthly Edonites , and carnal , envious Persecutors ) Shall I not , saith the Lord , even destroy the wise Men out of Edom , and the Understanding out of the Mount of Esau , Obed. 8. That every one of the Mount of Esau may be cut off , ver . 9. For the Viol●…ce against thy Brother Jacob , Shame shall cover thee , and thou shalt be cut off forever , ver . 10. Thou shouldst not have looked on the Day of thy Brother , &c. neither shouldst thou have spoken proudly in the Day of Distress : See ver . 12 , 13 , 14. to the End : Are not here plain Causes sh●…wn why God hated Esau ? Arg. 6. God knows his Elect from others , and this not only after , but before they are called , 2 Tim. 2. 19. The Foundation of God standeth sure . The Lord knoweth who are his , Joh. 13. 18. I know , whom I have chosen , Joh. 10. 14. I am the good Shepherd , I know my Sheep , ver . 16. Other Sheep I have that are not of this Fold , them also I must bring , and they shall hear my Voice : Therefore are they particular Persons ; These , and not others , that the Lord hath chosen , Joh. 6. 37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me . Answ. This Argument signifies nothing at all sor his Purpose , nor would it help him one whit if it were all granted ; for who questions God's Omnisciency ? God knows all alike considered meerly as Persons ; but in a near & peculiar Relation to himself , he knows his Elect ; he knows who are his ; Christ knows them both Men and Women , whom he hath chosen out of the World , and he saith , I am the good Shepherd , and know my Sheep , and am known of mine , Joh. 10. 16. But these latter Words [ and I am known of mine ] S. S. is pleased to leave out and quietly to pass by , for that Christ is known of his Elect , his Sheep ; but surely he could not be known of them before they were born , or had a Being : and as for those other Sheep which are not of this Fold , which Christ foretold the Gathering or bringing home of , they were such as had a Remainder of Innocency , in whom Jacob was not wholy destroyed through Rebellion and Wickedness ; but such as had been seeking Rest , where they could not find it ; but when the Truth and Way of Life came to be manifest to them , they were ready to receive and comply with it , and hear the good Shepherd's Voice and obey him . There were such lost Sheep both among Jews and Gentiles , who when the good Shepherd appeared , were so well disposed , as willing and ready to come to him , receive and follow him , and obey his Voice , which were distinguished from the Murtherers of the Just one in themselves , who were Wolves and Persecutors of Christ & his Witnesses , as he the good Shepherd was distinguished from the Hireling that fleeth , Joh. 10. 13 , 14. And they that come to Christ out of a true Hunger and Desire after him , as the Bread of Life , are those whom the Father hath given to him , who come to him in that which is given to him , of which he looseth nothing , but will raise it up at the last Day , Joh. 6. 37 , 39. And they whom the Father giveth to the Son , are given in a true Desire , Willingness and Love in themselves to the Truth , to follow & obey Christ ; the Father's Drawings not being resisted by them , but having an Influence and Prevalency with them , and upon their Spirits for that End as he said , Every man that hath heard and learned of the Father cometh unto me , Joh. 6. 45. so the Father's Teaching or Instruction was the Way of his drawing to the Son ; and this was not a Forceing them ( whether they will'd or nill'd ) to the Son ; but a gentle Perswading them to hear and learn of God ( in his Light ) that thereby they might come and ( in a sence of his Love therein ) be given to the Son. Arg. 7. This appears from the very Nature of Election ; for sect 5 where all are taken , or all are left , there can be no Election . Answ. Election rightly considered and truly stated , according to Scripture , I never questioned ; the Nature of which ( as is by this Opposer implied here ) is a being chosen out of or from imong ; and so the Elect , or true Believers , are chosen out of the World , from among Men , chosen out of Kindreds , Nations and People , as the Royal Offspring and Priesthood of Christ : But what proves this of a Personal Election and Reprobation particularly decreed and designed from all Eternity ? But still the quite contrary , far from the Nature of Election , or chusing a Church or People out of the World or from among Men , and that through the Sanctification of the Spirit and Belief of that Truth ; it follows that they were first in the World , in the Unbelief , and scattered among Men and People , before this Act of Election or chusing out , was fulfilled in them : He hath chosen us that we should be Holy and w●…thout Blame , that we might partake of Salvation by Jesus Christ , Ephes. 14. 1 Thes. 5. 9. and those thus cho●…en for this end , were the Saints , the Faithful in Christ Jesus , Ephes. 1. 1. who first trusted in Christ , ver . 12. who , alter they believed , were sealed with the holy Spirit of Promise , ver . 13. their Faith was in the Lord Jesus , and Love unto all Sai●…ts , ver . 15. who believed according to the working of his mighty Power , ver . 19. A●…d that th●… Esta●…e might be attained , Faith is offered to all ; the Power of Believing is given in the free Grace and Gi●…t of God's eternal Spirit and universal Light of his Son ; It bei●…g the World's Sin that they do not believe in Christ , of which the Spirit reproves them , sor which they would not be chargeable or reproved , if he had not afforded them Light and Power sufficient ●…or them to believe and obey Christ. S. S. Jacob have I Loved , and Esau have I hated . Though these last Wor●…s were spoken when Esau's Posterity was the Border of Wickedness , Mal. 1. yet what ever G. W. saith , were they spoken , to 〈◊〉 the free Choice that God long before had made os Jacob and his 〈◊〉 , pag. 112. Answ. As he intends Jacob after the Flesh ( and so his Seed ) who was called by the Name of Israel , this is still grounded upon his Mistake , and doth not at all make for his Opinion , but against him : For , though I grant a free Love to and Choice of Israel , so of the Seed of Jacob , as a peculiar People ; yet this did not secure them as to their eternal States , without their Perseverance in the Way of God : Neither was the Seed of Jacob , as after the Flesh , under an absolute Decree of Election to Eternal Life , that being known only in the Seed after the Spirit ; for the contrary was and is manifest in them , that did back-slide and rebel against the Spirit of God , and became Persecutors of the holy Prophets , and fell into gross Evils , many to their Destruction , which caused the Prophets often to complain against them , and Severity from God to come upon them that fell : On them that fell , Severity ; but on thee Goodness , if thou abide in his Goodness , Rom. 11. And it is said , The Lord was Wrath : So a Fire was kindled against Jacob , and Anger came up against Israel , Psal. 78. 21. Who gave Jacob to the Spoil , and Israel to the Robbers ? Did not the Lord against whom they had sinned ? For they would not walk in his Wayes ; neither were they Obedient unto his Law , Isa. 42. 24. and Chap. 43. 22. But thou hast not called upon me , O Jacob ; but thou hast been weary of me , O Israel ; thou hast made me to serve with thy Sins ; thou hast wearied me with thine Iniquities , ver . 24. Thy first Father hath sinned , and thy Teachers have transgressed against me , ver . 27. I have given Jacob to the Curse ; and Israel to Reproaches , ver . 28. Was Israel or Jacob's Seed then after the Flesh eternally Elected and Loved ? Was not his saying , I have loved Jacob , intended , to reprove the Ingratitude and Unfaithfulness of those his Posterity ? Mal. 1. 2. I have loved you , saith the Lord ; yet ye , say , wherein hast thou loved us ? &c. ver . 6. O Priests ! that despise my Name , &c. ver . 7. Ye offer polluted Bread upon mine Altar , &c. Thus those of Jacob or Israel ( after the Flesh , both Priests and People ) were reproved sor their Abuse of God's Love and Kindness ; and can any People now be said , to be so absolutely chosen to Salvation , meerly because God doth shew Love to them ? when now his Love in his Son is universally extended to the World : God so loved the World , &c. Joh. 3. Did he theresore decree the whole World to be saved ? See the Narrowness of the said Opinion of a Personal Election and Reprobation from all Eternity , and that impertinent Allegation of God's sree Choice of Jacob , and his Seed ( as it is intended to sute that Proposition , how false it is ) But further , the Apostle explains who are truly in the Election of the Seed of Promise , and who are the true a●…d spiritual Israel , ( and so in the Election which obtains ) See Rom. 9. 6. They are not all Israel which are of Israel , ver . 7. neither because they are the Seed of Abraham , are they all Chil●…ren ; but in Isaac shall thy Seed be called , ver . 8. That i●… , They which are the Children of the Flesh , these are not the 〈◊〉 of God ; but the Children of the Promise are counted ●…or the Seed : see also Gal. 4. 28 , 29. For Illustration whereo●… , the Apostle alludes to those Instances of Jacob and Esau , ( Rom. 9. 10 , 11 , 12. ) who were instanced as Figures of the two opposite Seeds , the two contrary Births , two differing People and Nations : as the Earthly and the Heavenly , the Natural and the Spiritual Seed , and Birth , are contrary in the very Nature and Ground ; and so are the Generations of each , as namely those in the first Adam , and those in the second ; those after the Flesh , and those after the Spirit : And so the Righteous and the Wicked , how contrary are they bo●…h in Nature and Spirit ? yet not simply as Creatures or Persons ; but as influenced with contrary Pri●…ciples , Spirits & Powers , which bring forth their own co●…trary Seeds , B●…rths and Images in Men and Women . Now whereas it is sa●…d , being no●… y●…t born ; neither having done Good or Evil. that the Purpose of God according to Election might stand , not of Works , but of him that calleth , it was said unto Rebecca , The Elder all serve the Younger ; or , the Greater hall serve the Lesser : Note , that this cannot oe a●…y 〈◊〉 of any 〈◊〉 or eternal Election and Reprobation of J●…cob a●…d Esau's Persons ; for what Service need Jacob in Heaven srom Esau in Hell ? or , what Service could Esau in Hell do Jacob in Heaven ? Howbeit , the Purpose of God according to Election stands sure originally in the El●…ct S●…ed , and so not of Works : Esau was a Worker ; and so the first Birth would of it self be a Willing , Running and Working for Li●…e eternal , which can be no Procurement of God's Purpose thereof : But a Seed is freely given of God to Mankind , and Power to bring forth Righteousness , and the living Works , as Effects of Grace ; and God freely calls Men thereto out of his free Grace and Love to all ; By grace are ye sav●…d , through Faith , and that not of your selves , it is the Gift of God ; not of Works , lest any Man should boast , for we are his Workmanship , created in Christ Jesus unto good Works ( mark this ) which God hath before ordained , that we should walk in them , Ephes. 2. 8 , 9 , 10. And Note , That this saving Grace hath appeared unto all Men , Titus 2. 11. It is not limited , or bound up to that Narrowness as the particular Electioners Opinion would bind it , as only to a particular designed small Number of Persons from Eternity , with an eternal Exclusion of all the World beside to everlasting Damnation , without Remedy ; which is a most partial and cruel Doctrine , ecclipsing the Glory and Soveraignity of God , which is most manifest in shewing Mercy , rather then meer partial Severity on his poor Creatures . Whereas S. S. teacheth , that the making this Vessel to Honour , that to Dishonour , is God's creating such a Person with a sect 6 Resolution to recover him out of his fallen State , by Saving Grace ; such a Person , with an Intention to leave and never recover him out of his fallen State , by renewing Grace , &c. p. 112 , 113. Answ. The Man runs still upon his first Mistake , placing such a partial Resolution and Intention upon God towards his Creatures , or particular Persons , in creating them as absolutely to recover one , and leave the other in the Fall : and why then doth this Man , or his Brethren , preach and tender Salvation upon Terms to all Sorts ? They cloak this partial Reserve with general Tenders of Good , imagining God to be as partial in his Intentions , and both as slighty and Contradictory in his Call and Proffers as themselves ; as if he should call all to Repentance and Life , and yet to have created them with Intention to leave the Greater Part in the Fall for Eternal Death ( or rather , to have from Eternity reprobated them ) or as his Masters of the Assembly say , He hath before ordained them to everlasting Death ; the Contradiction of which Doctrines both to God's universal Love , Grace , and Call , as also to themselves , how manifest is it ? That he should from Eternity ordain them for Reprobation , whom in due time he gives Light unto , and calls to Repentance , how plainly inconsistent are these and contradictory ? One while to say , he hath reprobated them ; another while , he passeth by them : One while , he hath before ordained them to everlasting Death ; another while , he creates them with Intention to leave them without Recovery ; which though all in curreth the same End ( as is supposed to a certain fore designed Number of Persons ) yet the State of the Case ( as it reflects upon God ) is as much opposite and contrary , as to say , God doth absolutely , eternally decree Man's Destruction , or did reprobate them from Eternity ; and then that he purposely passeth by , and leaves them to destroy or kill themselves ; whereas his good Will , and Kindness , and free Proffers of Grace and Salvation to lost Man admits of neither , to wit , neither of such Cruelty to , nor Carelesness of his Creatures ; his Mercies are over all his Works , and his Grace and Mercy in the first place extending to all : And that saying , He will have Mercy on whom he will , is no Limitation to the first extent of his Grace and good Will ; But that he will have Mercy , both by way of Encrease and Continuance to the Upright-hearted , even to them that fear him , who Love and obey him ; but those that are destroyed , their Destruction is of themselves , as it is written , But my People would not hearken unto my Voice , Israel would none of me ; Therefore ( mark the Cause ) I gave them over to their own Hearts Lusts , Psal. 81. 11. and as S. S. ( in Contradiction to himself ) saith , Nor doth God consume any Man meerly as his own Workmanship ; but ( he adds ) God endureth with much long Suffering unregenerate men , and they fit themselves for Destruction , pag. 113. See here , how the Man breaks the Neck of his own Cause : Is his Opinion of God's Eternally reprobating and ordaining partiticular Persons to Destruction come to this , That now while he sheweth long Suffering towards them , they fit themselves for Destruction ; that is , they rebel against God , resist his Spirit , and despise the Riches of his Grace , and slight his long Suffering and Patience , till they bring swift Destruction upon themselves ? And this God is not the Cause of ; He doth not unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass : Sin and Rebellion in the Wicked , and their Striving against him , Isa. 45. 9. are come to pass , which he is not the Author of ; Wo unto him that Strives with his Maker ; thou hast hid thy Face from us , and we are consumed , because of our Iniquities ; which God is neither the Author nor Cause of . S. S. God's Election is unchangeable ; he will certainly bring in , never finally reject that Soul he had taken Liking to — Nothing sect 7 can fall out , not Sin it self , causing God to alter his Purpose ; he foresaw all , &c. p. 113. Answ. His Election and Purpose thereof , where made sure and confirmed by his Spirit in his Sanctified ones ( who are established in his Grace ) is unalterable : But 1st , There are Degrees and Growths in a State of Election before Establishment ; as those to whom Peter wrote his first Epistle , were called Elect , according to the fore-Knowledge of God through Sanctification of the Spirit unto Obedience , &c. 1 Pet. 1. 2. These though Elected ( so far as they were chosen out of the World , through Sanctification and Belief of the Truth ) yet he both wrote unto them , to stir up their pure Minds , 2 Pet. 3. 1. and exhorted them , to give Diligence to make their Calling and Election sure , that they might never fall , 2 Pet. 1. 10. But what need of this , if they were personally elected ( from an absolute Purpose of God ) from Eternity ? Needed , or could they make that more sure , which God had made so absolute ? If so , then the Exhortation had more properly run thus , viz. Brethren , believe that God hath made your personal Election sure from Eternity ; and then what needed he warn or admonish them concerning the Apostacy of those who denyed the Lord that bought them , who had forsaken the right Way , or of such , who after they had escaped the Pollutions of the World , through the Knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ ( which sure was saving Grace ) yet were again entangled therein , that their latter End was worse with them then the Beginning , 2 Pet. 2. Did not then their Sin , their falling from Grace , and so their Disobedience hinder their Establishment and Security in a State of Election , or keep from that Diligence ( in the Spirit ) whereby they should have made their Calling and Election sure . 2dly , His saying , That Sin it self cannot cause God to alter his Purpose , is not only a gross Mistake ( as in this Case ) but also gives a great Liberty to Hypocrites ( who believe they are eternally elect Persons ) to continue in Sin and Presumption : But in Reproof to such , and Confutation of the Mistake , see what the Prophet Jeremiah saith in the 18th Chapter , where having first declared the Power God had over them , by the Instance of the Potter , ver . 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. He further shews his Purpose and the Manifestation of his Power , both in Judgment and Mercy , and the Condition on which his declar'd Thought or Intention may be alter'd , as where he saith , v. 7. at what Instant I shall speak concerning a Nation & concerning a Kingdom , to pluck up and to pull down and destroy it , v. 8. If that Nation against whom I have pronounced , turn from their Evil , I will repent of the Evil I thought to do unto them , v. 9. And at what Instant I shall speak concerning a Nation , and concerning a Kingdom , to build and to plant it , v. 10. If it do Evil in my Sight , that it obey not my Voice , then will I repent of the Good , wherewith I said I would benefit them : See also ver . 11 , 12. to the 18th . Object . If any should thus object , That these conditional Alterations of God's Purposes did but concern their temporal Conditions , not their eternal , &c. Answ. It may be answered , That it is a Mistake ; they concerned both ; except Men repent they shall perish eternally : Their persisting in Evil-doing and Disobedience to the Voice of God , i●…currs eternal Condemnation , as well as temporal Punishments ; so contrary wise , through true Repentance , &c. both have been escaped by many , and Godliness is great Gain , which hath the Promise of the Life that now is , and of that which is to come , 1 Tim. 4. 8. & 6. 6. Again , my unanswered Objection was and still is , Were it not impertinent and vain , to warn Men of Destruction , sect 8 eternal Death , or Perishing , if from Eternity they were secured from any such Danger ? Or on the other Hand , in time to set before them Life and Death , that they might chuse Life , & refuse Death , &c. as Deut. 30. 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. If God had particularly designed them for Death and Destruction , how should they then chuse Life ? Were not this to mock them with a dissembling Proffer of Life , if the contrary be so unalterably designed for them ? S. S. ( After his fashion ) answers , God that decrees their Salvation , decrees by such Warnings to work in them his Fear and an holy Caution , to keep them in his Wayes , that they may be saved , p. 114. Rep. What Fear ? A Fear of that which there is no Danger of , or that from a Fear of Destruction they may fear him , when they are from Et●…rnity unalterably secured from Destruction , or of Salvation ( as is supposed ) What Non-sense and impertinent Preaching and Warning is this , to dissemble People into a Fear and Cautiousness of that which they are out of all Danger of incurring , especially , if God's Purpose in the Case be so unchangeable ( as to particular Persons ) that Sin it self cannot alter it ? Is this Way of Presbyterians warning Men of Destruction ( being compared with their partial Opinion ) any better then frighting Children with fond Conceits and Fancies of things that are not ? But we are sure that the Warnings that both Moses , the Prophets and Apostles gave , were real and serious , both as to their Tendence and Consequence , and not with such partial and contradictory Reserves and Opinions , as this of the Presbyterians eternal Election and Reprobation of particular Persons . Object . Whom he will he hardeneth , Rom. 9. Peter deserved sect 9 hardening as well as Judas ; That God hardeneth Judas , not Peter , proceeds from the meer Pleasure of his Will , p. 114. Rep. The Man most egregiously mistakes in this his placing such a severe Act of God's Will ( as hardening any that are rebellious ) upon meer Will and Pleasure ( in our Opposer's Sense ) as the Cause of such a Judgment , whereas it cannot be the meer Will and Pleasure of God to use such Severity , as to harden and destroy his Creatures ; for he delighteth in Mercy , Micah 7. 18. and hath no ●…leasure in the Death of him that dyeth ; and he willeth not the Death of a Sinner , but rather his Return , Ezek. 18. 23. & 33. 11. So that when he will harden , or give Persons up to the Hardeness of their Hearts , Justice ( as being provoked ) is of Necessity the Reason of his so acting , and not meer Will and Pleasure ; neither doth he harden Men from Eternity , but in Time , because of their Rebellion , resisting and gain-saying him in the Time of his long Suffering and Warnings to them , which doubtless he fore-saw in Pharaoh , who was in himself a proud , imperious , cruel Rebel against God , and Tyrant over his People , which appeared when he was warned in his saying , Who is the Lord that I should obey his Voice , to let Isra●…l go ? I know not the Lord ; neither will I let Israel go * Exod. 5. 2. As also Pharaoh's Rebellion appear'd when he hardened his own Heart , when he saw there was Respite , Exod. 8. 15. So God's giving him up to Hardeness of Heart , was not upon meer Will and Pleasure ; for that is all the Reason that the severe Actions of such Tyrants as Pharaoh , yields , as namely , Will and Pleasure : their Will is their Law ; they will be cruel and oppress , because they will do so : But all the Judgments of the Lord are just and righteous , respecting the Merit of the Fact or Cause more then meer Will and Pleasure ; therefore it was his Will to give Pha●…aoh , Judas , and many others , up to Hardeness , because it was Just so to do , for that their Rebellion and Provocation was exceeding great and high against him ; when as rigorous and cruel Tyrants use their Power in their Cruelties and Oppressions ( and seek to temporize and draw out their Subjects into Irreligiousness and Debaucheries ) only upon Will and Pleasure ( which to affix upon God , as the Reason of hardening any , is no small Degree of Blasphemy , as is this Man 's accusing God with the meer Pleasure of his Will , as the Cause or Reason of hardening Judas , not Peter ; & his accusing Peter with deserving hardening as well as Judas , is his manifest Error , making no Difference between Judas his Offence and Peter's , nor between their States and Conditions ; As the State of Peter , who through Weakness and Fear denyed Christ , which he presently repented of ; and that of Judas , who wilfully betrayed Christ , and delivered him into the Hands of Murtherers : Was not here a vast Difference between Peter and Judas ? ( what say you Professors to it ? ) and a great Reason for the Judgment of God upon that Traytor Judas more then meer Will and Pleasure . S. S. Arg. As there are particular Angels , whom God suffered sect 10 to fall ( though he could as easily have preserved them as he did the rest ) so there are particular Men and Women ( whom God endures with much long Suffering to fit themselves for Destruction ; therefore from all Eternity did God decree thus to do concerning them in particular ; for known to the Lord are all his Works from the Foundation of the World , p. 114 Answ. God's suffering Men and Angels to fall , or to fit themselves for Destruction , doth much differ from eternally decreeing them particularly for Destruction ; for if he had so decreed concerning them ( meerly as particular Persons ) what needed he endure t●…em with much long Suffering ? that being both a Testimony of his Grace or Favour towards them , and of his Unwillingness to destroy them ; for his long Suffering and Goodness leadeth some to Repentance , and his Judgment is according to Truth upon them that despise the Riches of his Goodness and Forbearance , Rom. 2. And concerning the Fall of those Angels that fell , 1st , God did neither particularly design it ; nor was he the Author of it , no more then of Men's Transgressions in general ; he hath ordained the Punishment of the Ungodly , not their Ungodliness ; for in Jude 6. it is said , The Angels which kept not their first Estate ( or Principality ) but left their own Habitation , he hath reserved in everlasting Chains under Darkness , &c. To that Saying , God could have preserved them , I answer , They provoked him , which was their great Sin and Loss to themselves ; Therefore he saw it not meet to continue his Love and Favour to them which they had so abused : Neither is it his Will or Way to detain or restrain any forceably in his Way , whether they will or not ; nor to preserve any without their Diligence in attending upon him , and keeping their Habitations . 2dly , So likewise concerning those that were ordained of old to this Condemnation , Jude 4. ( or as it may be read ) who were of old prescribed to this Judgment of the Ungodly ) however they as Ungodly Men , were so ordained for Condemnation ; not meerly as particular Persons , but as such , who were so far fallen from the Grace of God , as to transfer his Favours unto Luxury , denying the only Lord God ; They were also Trees whose Fruit wither d , twice dead , &c. Jude 12. Surely they could not be twice Dead , if they had never been Quickned ; but their Ingratitude and Abuse of the Grace of God that had quickned them , caused their Condemnation ; as , God spared not the Angels that sinned , but cast them down to Hell , they having left their own Habitation ; and spared not the old World , nor the Cities of Sodom and Gomorrah , whom he condemned with an Overthrow , making them an Ensample unto those that after should live Ungodly , 2 Pet. 2. This sufficiently declares the Reason & Cause of Condemnation , both to Angels and Men to be their Sin , in forsaking the Lord , and living Ungodly . But whereas S. S. renders God's fore-knowledge of all his Works , as the Reason or Proof , That he from eternity decreed particular Angels and Men for Destruction ( which appears Contradictory to his Masters of the Assemblies confessing , viz. That God hath not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future , Confess . Chap. 3 ) This Proof is as impertinent as the rest of his shallow Arguments ; for his fore-Knowledge being infinite , it is no Proof that he hath absolutely decreed or ordained all things that come to pass , because he foresaw all ; for he hath not ordained that Men should live in Sin , though he hath designed their Punishment who do so live ; yet known unto the Lord are all his Work 's , both those of his Creation which he wrought according to his absolute Pleasure , both in Heaven , and in Earth , and in the Sea , &c. Psal. 135. 6. and Man was not capable of resisting his Maker in forming of him ; he was as the Clay in his Hand ; as also , the Lord foreknew his work of Sanctification and saving of man from Sin and Death ; but this is not effected without a Subjection to his Will , and a Compliance with his Spirit , and Power in his Work within : They are not Partakers of Salvation from Sin , who wilfully gain-say the Truth , resist the holy Ghost , and act Despite against the Spirit of Grace . But further , I find S. S. so uncertain in the Management of his partial Proposition for a personal Election and Reprobation , that he is made sometimes to grant and confess to Truth to his own absolute Confutation , and the Break neck of his graceless Cause ; As by his Confessing , That God hath no Pleasure in the Death of him that dieth ; considered barely as his Creature ; for he is willing to receive to Mercy every returning Sinner , yet if a Person perseveres in Wickedness , as such God will laugh at his Calamity , &c. Thus far S. S. From whence it follows , 1st , That God did not from Eternity decree the Damnation of particular Persons , contrary to his declared Pleasure . 2dly , That persevering in Wickedness is the Cause of Men's Calamity , 3dly , A●…d their Perversness and Obstinacy in rejecting Wisdom's Reproof and Counsel , the Cause that God will laugh at their Calamity , and mock when their Fear cometh . Now the Doctrine of Election and Reprobation , as universally sect 11 and equally laid down in the Scriptures of Truth , and as accordingly by us asserted ( for that there can be no Repugnancy either in God's Actions , or in his Will , whether secret or revealed , as some vainly imagin ) cannot be inconsistent with God's Prohibitions , Eat not of the Tree of Knowledge . His conditional Promises , If thou dost well , shalt thou not be accepted ? If you Seek the Lord , he will be found of you . Whosoever believeth shall not perish ; shall not abide in Darkness . His conditional Threats , If thy Heart turn away thou shalt Perish : If ye for sake him he will for sake you . His sending his Son into the World , not to Condemn the World. He should have added [ Christ's Dying for all Men , tasting death for every Man ] his giving his Spirit to instruct them ; His Setting Life and Death before them , in the Promises and in the Threats , or giving Men up to their Lusts for Sin , This cannot be inconsistent with God's Election or Choice of true Believers and Obedient , nor with his rejecting the Rebellious * unto Reprobation , for they evince the Truth thereof ; But the Presbyters partial Doctrine of Election and Reprobation of particular Persons , and certain definite number of Men and Angels , and their most grosly Asserting , that God from all Eternity did freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass , This is both inconsistent with those and such his Prohibitions , conditional Promises and Threats ; His sending his Son not to condemn the World , but that the World through him might be saved ; his dying for all Men ; his giving his good Spirit to the Disobedient to instruct them ; his setting Life and Death before them , to chuse Life , or perish , Deut. 30. 15. to the end ; but Alas ! if from Eternity God had reprobated them , or absolutely ordained and designed their Damnation and Curse , how should they Chuse Life or Blessing ? Or , if particularly & unchangeably ordained to Life and Salvation from all Eternity , Could there be any such Danger of their perishing , or that they should thus need to be threatned with Cursing and Perishing , if their Heart turned away from the Lord ? For had they been unchangeably designed of God for the one End ( whether Life or Death ) were it not very inconsistent to propose both conditionally to them ? as namely , to exhort them to chuse Life ; or if they refused , to threaten them with perishing &c. do not you partial-minded Presbyters and Calvinists by such kind of Preaching , and Propositions so contrary to your partial Principle , most grosly dissemble with People , and mock them contrary to your own Belief ? whenas Moses , the Prophets and Apostles in such like Conditional Promises and Threats believed what they spoak ; they believed and therefore spoak from the Spirit of God , which cannot lie nor dissemble . If you say , God hath decreed particular Persons Salvation by such Warnings , you thereby tell us that he hath decreed it by Threatning them with Damnation , and thereby you affix your non-sense & incongruous Doctrine upon God , rather then you will confess your own nonsensical Contradiction therein , which runs thus , That God hath from all Eternity unchangeably designed some Persons eternal Salvation , and yet that he warns and threatens the same Persons with eternal Damnation or Perdition , if they refuse Life , or to ●…earken to him and obey him , or if their Hearts turn away from him : pray , mark , how inconsistent and contradictory this is ; like as to say , It is unchangeably designed of God that you must live for ever ; yet take heed you do not dye eternally . And to S. S. his adding , All these are subservient to the Soveraign Design of God's Decrees : The Magnifying his Mercy and Grace in the Salvation of all the Elect ; his Justice or Wrath in the Reprobates , &c. pag. 115. Ans. If by the Words [ All these ] as we may take him ) he intends , according to the Assembly's Confession , That God from all Eternity did most freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass ; then it may be understood , that all these things , those Conditions or States , both Good and Bad , which he mentions before , are subservient to the soveraign Design of God's Decrees ( as he words it ) But if by [ all these ] he intends all these conditional Promises and Threats , are so subservient ( as I think he doth ) then God's Decrees of Men Salvation or Damnation , are also conditional accordingly : as first , If you seek the Lord he will be found of you ( and then as all are called to seek the Lord , he hath also given Liberty and a Capacity to all to seek him that they may find him ) this I grant to be according to his good Will , and subservient to his Decree , as his sending his Son into the World , not to condemn the World , but that the World through him be saved ; for he verily was fore-ordained before the Foundation of the World , 1 Pet. 1. 20 , 21. But then I deny , that God hath either decreed or ordained that men's Hearts should turn away from him , or that they shall forsake him ; or love Darkness rather then the true Light ( which is come into the World ) whereby many cause their own Condemnation : How dare any say or think , that all these are subservient to the soveraign Design of Gods Decrees , as they must who say , that he has unchangeably decreed whatsoever comes to pass ? which renders him to be the Author of those and such Sins and Abuses against himself and his Love , and that in order to serve his own Decree ; which is very blasphemous against God , who hath testified otherwise , as namely , Thy Destruction is of thy self , but in me thine Help , saith the Lord , Hoseah , 13. 9. and why will ye die , O house of Israel ? &c. God is not the Author of Sin , nor willing that any should perish therein ; he doth actually damn none but the finally ●…mpenitent ( as is plainly confessed ) So , thus his Decree Justly stands against the finally Impenitent ; therefore do not continue in your Impenitency , that you may not incurr final Damnation . God is neither Partial nor Cruel , in decreeing to deny saving Grace sect 12 to some , whilst he decrees to give it to others , p. 115. Answ. That God doth so decree is but Petitio Principii , and sufficiently confuted in the whole Tenor of this Discourse ; and let the Ingenious Reader Judge , whether this doth not render him both Partial and Cruel , to conclude , he hath unalterably decreed to damn some , and to deny them saving Grace ; but decreed to give it to others , who were by Nature Children of Wrath as well as the rest , and yet all God's Creatures and Workmanship , as Man and Woman , both the saved and the damned , are all inevitably brought into the World. This partial Doctrine of God's eternally decreeing to save some and to damn the rest ( who by Nature are rendered as all a like ) is enough to make many despair , and curse God that ever they had a Being , and to * destroy themselves , as many have donc upon this Principle , as by Satan's seconding it by perswading them , That God hath decreed to deny them saving Grace , on purpose to damn them forever ; which is ●…o small Reflection upon God and the Glory of his Soveraignity and Grace , and tends more then a little to ecclipse the Glory of his divine Justice , to render it so vindictive and cruel , as not in the first place to regard his own Workmanship in general ( to wit Mankind ) but to decree eternal Vengeance for the greatest part thereof , without affording them the least Degree of saving Grace , to help them out of the sallen Estate . Oh , What a cruel , dark Spirit is that in Electioners , that thus reflects u●…on a most gratious and Merciful God , who delighteth in Mercy and not in Destruction ! Neither is his divine Justice so Inconsistent with himself and his gracious divine Nature , as not to respect poor lost Man and Woman in general , or as not to allow Grace and Light sufficient for the Help & Salvation of Mankind in general , seeing that his being a Savour is not inconsistent with his ●…vine Justice ; for he said , I am a Just God and a Saviour ; there is none besides me , Isa. 45. 21 , 22. Divine Justice cannot be so partially cruel to the Creature , as either to make void divine Goodness , or withhold it from Mankind . S. S. Who can prove that converting , confirming Grace , is a sect 13 due Debt to every fallen Man and Woman , who hath first given to him , p. 115. Answ. What an impertinent Question is this ? Who of us ever asserted Grace to be a Debt to any Man ? Grace being so contrary to Debt in the very Nature of it , Rom. 4. 4. & 11. 6. God loved us first ; so that his Grace or Favour in the first Place is free to all Men , without Exception or respect of Persons ; and this condemns the Cruelty and Partiality , which the particular Electioners ( or Predestinarian ) Opinion would lay upon God , to limit and tye up his Grace in such Narrowness as it doth . Why doth he yet find Fault ? Rom. 9. may be justly objected against that erroneous Doctrine , That God hath unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass ; for why should he find Fault , either with his own Works , or with the Effect of his own Design or Decree ? But he doth not find Fault , either with his own Works of Creation ( as made by him ) no●… yet with any Vessel , as made , renewed o●… clea●…sed by him , but as polluted or corrupted with Sin ; and so with Man , not as his Maker is the Potter or Framer , but as the Devil is the Potter , having framed Men up in his own Nature and Image of Sin and Unrighteousness ; and so , W●… unto him that striveth with his Maker , Isa. 45. 9. to which that of Rom. 9. 20. relates . And likewise , Who hath resisted his Will , or the Might of his Pow●…r ? is a Question ( of some ) supposing that God absolutely Wills and Effects whatever comes to pass from an unchangeable Purpose or Design , both as to the particular States and Ends of Pe●…sons : but herein ma●…y partial Minds and narrow Spirits are greatly mistaken ; for though the Will of God , and the Might of his Power , both in creating Man , and in many times convicting , judging and condemning the Wicked and Rebellious for Sin , be absolute and irresistable ; yet his Will , as manifest in the Tenders o●… Good , in Counsel and Perswasion to Man , in the Strivings of his Spirit with the Wicked ( All which have a tendence to draw Men out of Sin and Evil , and to induce them to Righteousness ) His Will , as thus considered , many do resist , in rejecting his Counsel , rebelling against his Commands , quenching his Spirit , resisting the holy Ghost , despising his Law , casting it behind their Backs , striving agai●…st their Maker in the time of his Patience and long Suffering towards them , till for their Rebellion he bring his Severity and heavy Hand upon them ; for if Men did not resist the holy Spirit , it should not need to strive with them ; God wills not that any should perish , but that all Men should come to Repentance , 2 Pet. 3. 9. Who will have all Men to be saved , and ●…o come unto the Knowledge of the Truth , 2 Tim. 2. 3 , 4. And yet all are not saved ; all do not know the Truth ; and what hinders them ? Not any Decree of God ; but their resisting his Good Will , Counsel and Motions of his Spirit . O Man ! thy Destruction is of thy self ; but thy Help is of me , saith the Lord. S. S. All fallen Men and Women are not reprobated ; this is sect 14 some Comfort , and it importunately urgeth all in Compassion to their own Souls , to turn from Sin to God in Christ , and to seek after good Scripture , Evidence of their Election , p. 116. Answ. The Matter would have been more congruous thus , for that no fallen Men nor Women are reprobated for Everlasting lasting Destruction , until they have first slighted the Kindness of God , abused his Grace , rebelled against his blessed Light , rejected his Knowledge , as not liking to retain him in their Knowledge ; this importunately urgeth all in Compassion to their own Souls , to turn from Sin to God in Christ , while his Grace and Good Will extends to them , and a time of Love is afforded them ; while he maketh his Sun to rise on the Evil and on the Good , and sendeth Rain on the Just and on the Unjust , Mat. 5. 45. Now this is Matter of Comfort , that God doth shew Love and Kindness towards all ; and that he universally extends Light and offereth Salvation by his Son ( who indeed is his shining Sun ) to the Ends of the Earth ; and that he willeth not ( or desireth not ) the Death of any in their Sins ; but rather their Return and Repentance , that they may live . But alas ! What a mani●…est Contradiction is it for the Man , one while to conclude , that God hath from all Eternity reprobated the greatest Part or Number of ●…allen Men and Women , or unchangeably designed their Eternal Damnation ( poor Encouragement ) another while , to tell of importunately urging all in Compassion to their own immortal Souls , to turn from Sin to God in Christ ? How should they have Compassion to their immortal Souls , if God hath no Compassion nor Love towards them ? Or how should Reprobates turn from Sin , if eternally reprobated ? This were but putting them upon an Impossibility , and so a flattering and mocking them with a pretended Kindness , never intended for them . As the Opinion ( which I oppose ) vainly supposeth , by such specious Pretences Presbyterian Priests , &c. have flattered many out of their Money , which is like as if a Priest in his preaching to a People , should bid them all have Compassion upon their Immortal Souls , and turn from Sin ; and then tell them it is impossible they should ever turn from Sin , or be saved , God having unalterably designed the Destruction and Damnation of the greatest Part of them ; what Comfort would this Contradiction and cruel Partiality administer to them , I pray you ? It would be but cold Comfort to tell a great Congregation , That God had fore-design●…d them all , except two or three of them , to be damned eternally . This is not the Word of Faith , nor any preaching in the Faith ; this is not Yea & Amen , but a saying and unsaying ; a pretending to comfort and encourage them all , and to discourage and lead m●…ny into Despair : And how then should they seek Evidence in Scripture for their Election or Salvation ? The Scriptures of themselves do not evidence to particular Perso●…s their Election from Eternity ; the Seriptures do not tell S. Scandr●…t & Nat. Barnard , &c. that they are Elect Persons ; B●…t to them that believe in Christ , and in him have obtained Power over their Corruptions , and whose Hearts are truly and spiritually tender towards God , his Spirit beareth Witne●…s w●…th their Spirits , and evidenceth to them ( according to Scripture ) that they are the Sons of God , chosen in Christ Jesus , through Sanctification of the Spi it and Belief of the Truth ; and so are adopted through the Spirit of Adoption , to be the Children of God , and Coheirs with Christ of Eternal Life and Peace . S. S. Is the Judge cruel that hangs up a Murtherer ? sect 15 Answ. No ; but neither the Judge , nor yet the Law doth ordain or prescribe , that this or that Person shall be a Murtherer ; for the Fact is forbidden , and the Punishment is prescribed , as is the judgment and Punishment of ungodly Men in general . S. S. God doth actually damn none but the finally Impenitent . Answ. Then their Impenitency is the Effect of their own Disobedience and Rebellion , not of God's Decree ; and this sufficiently con●…utes their accusing God with fore-designing or ordaining the Sin or wicked Actions of Men , or particular Persons , ●…or such and such Wayes and Ends , Act. 2. 23. Christ , being delivered by the determinate C●…unsel and fore-Knowledge of God , after you had taken with wicked Hands , you hav●… crucified and slain , p. 116. There was a Necessity of his being delivered to suffer , as God fore-knew , because of the Sins of the World : Christ was given up in the Counsel of God on his Part to suffer ; but their wicked Hands , that God permitted to take and murther him , were against God and Christ , not subject to his Counsel of Love and Mercy ; but to the Devil and their own wicked Hearts , malicious & murtherous Spirits ; and therefore they were by God's Counfel call'd to repent , to be converted , to turn from their Iniquities , Acts 3. 14 , 15 , 19 , 26. But surely God did not call them to re●…ent of obeying his holy and just Counsel , but of their Iniquities , having murthered the Just one . Acts 4. 27 , 28. Against thy ●…oly Child Jesus , Herod & Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and the People of Israel , gathered themselves together , to do whatsoever thine Hand and thy Counsel had determin'd before to be done . But see ver . 25 , 26. concerning the Gentil●…s Rage , and the Kings of the Earth , and the Rulers standing up , and gathering together against the Lord and against his Christ ; the Rage and wicked Consultations of whom God was not the Author of ; for when God by the Mouth of his Servant David asked , Why did the Heathen rage ? ver . 25. Would it have been a good Answer for any to have said , Lord , why dost thou ask ? Hast not thou ●…ore - ordained them to rage & imagine vain things ? Surely no ; sor th●…n he would not ask , why ? but when thereby they had provoked him , having rejected his Counsel and Good Will , they were given up to work Wickedness and Injustice , and so their own Ruin , like those who brought Wo upon their Souls ; for they had rewarded Evil to themselves . As God's Counsel fore-saw and perceived , as the Jews or People of Israel rejected Christ , and would not be gathered by him , he said , O Jerusalem , Jerusalem ! how oft would I have gathered thy Children , even as the Hen gathereth her Chickens under her Wings , and you would not ; he therefore said , Ye are the Children of them that murthered the Prophets ; fill ye up the Measure of your Fathers , &c. Serpents , &c. Mat. 23. 31. to the End : This was not from an Eternal Decree irrespectively against their Persons , but in Judgment and Wrath against them because of their Ungratefulness , Envy and Wickedness ; and so likewise all who receive not the Love of the Truth , whereby they might be saved , but have Pleasure in their Unrighteousness , God gives them up both to strong Delusions and Hardness of Heart for their Iniquity , 2 Thes. 2. 10 , 11. S. S. Is Cod the Author of Sin in determining or fore-ordaining the wicked Actions of these Men ? It is one thing to decree the Permission of Sin , another to commit it ; between God's fore-ordaining the Sin , and the actual Commission of it , came in the Will and wicked Hands of Men : The Will and these wicked Hands were the Author and Cause of Sin , and not God's fore-Ordination . Answ. How S. S. can clear himself from rendering God to be the Author of Sin , while he accuseth him of determining or fore-ordaining the wicked Actions of these Men , of fore - ordaining the Sin , let the unbyas'd Reader judge whether this be not an Unjust Charge against God : And I ask , Did God determine and fore-ordain the Wicked Actions of Men , and yet warn and counsel them to turn from Iniquity ? What Inconsistency is this ? How will these hold together ? Doth not God first counsel , and desire the 〈◊〉 before he lets them alone , and gives them up to their Lusts and Hardness , to Work their own Ruin ? How like the Ranters Principle ( that all Actions are of God and by his Power ) is it to say ( in these general Expressions ) That God hath determined or fore-ordained the Actions of wicked Men ? For then , how should they reform , as he counsels them by his Light in their Consciences ? and what need of Reforming what God hath fore-ordained ? But how contradictory to this Fore-ordination of wicked Actions ( which the Man hath unjustly accused God with ) is his P●…rmission of Sin ? although he doth not alwaies permit Sin to go unpunished , yet in this we agree , that the Will and wicked Hands of Men , as acted by the Divel , were the Author and Cause of Sin , and the Commission of it ; and therefore not God , nor any Fore-ordination of his ; for he hath fore-ordained his Son Jesus Christ to call Sinners to Repentance , to offer Life and Salvation to all , before he g●…ves up any to a reprobate Mind , or to work their own Ruin. S. S. to those he counts Elect , saith ; You are now afraid sect 16 you have lost all ; for you have greatly fallen as did David * your Faith is even giving up the Ghost , yet are you not fallen from Grace ; God hath not forsaken you , Psal. 89. 30. Answ. Although I confess that in the Lord is plentious Redemption , and Forgiveness to all that unfeignedly repent , and turn from Iniquity ; yet as this Man placeth all upon a personal Election ( even David's Forgiveness and Redemption ) not so much taking notice of his Repentance , Judgment and Terror that he under went , under which David often asked God Forgiveness for his Transgression : This pretended personal Election , and telling Men , they are not fallen from Grace , when guil●…y of horrible Wickedness , gives them a large Scope and gross Liberty to Sin and Wickedness , if they can but in the first place conceit they are elect Persons ; and be but such Hypocrites as out-face their own Consciences , and murder the Just Witness , and evade the Conviction and Reproofs of Truth therein ; and be so self-confident as to perswade themselves they are not fallen from Grace , when they have committed Adultery or Murther , and acted as badly as Reprobates can do , and then flatter themselves with that Imagination , That Christ hath payed all their Debt , and satisfied the Justice of his Father ( which they call vindictive ) for all their Sins past , present and to come . This is an easy way to make Hypocrites , for them to continue in the Sin of Whoredom and other Abominations . But this is too broad a Way ever to lead them to Heaven ; and the Wicked had not need thus to have their Hands strengthened in Sin , nor thus to be encouraged in a course of Impioty by a Pretence of an Impossibility of falling from Grace , seeing there is a just Man that perisheth in his Righteousness , and then where shall the Wicked and Ungodly appear ? and what manner of Persons ought we to be in all holy Conversation and Godliness , 2 Pet. 3. Will it avail Persons any thing before the Just God , for a Company of daubing Hypocritical Priests to tell a few conceited Electioners , Though you have fallen very foully , as did David , or into Adultery or Murther ; yet have a good Heart on it , believe still you are elect Persons , chosen and designed of God for Salvation from all Eternity ; you are not fallen from Grace , when you are guilty of Whoredom and the like ; as if Grace had such a great Affinity with them in this their Wickedness . A pleasant Doctrine for the Devil and his Children to feed upon , as Hypocrites , Whoremongers , and abominable Workers ; who , though as bad and filthy as those they count Reprobates , yet do imagine that God respects their vile Persons , Eternally to mak●… Choice of them only more then others , who it may be , ar●… not so bad as they ( as if they were such choice Jewels in their Filthiness ) which is no small Blasphemy , and Reflection upon God , thus to render him partially-indulgent to the Wicked , and unequal in his Way towards Mankind , as eternally to design such great Favour and Indulgence to a small part thereof ( which is as bad as the rest ) and inevitable Cruelty ( as eternal Wrathin Hell ) to the greater part thereof ; whereas all Mankind in general is God's Workmanship by Creation , all made of one Earth , one Blood , &c. surely he is no such Respecter of Persons . As concerning God's Covenant with David and his Seed , sect 17 Psa. 89. It is said , His Seed also will I make to endure for ever , and his Throne as the Dayes of Heaven : If his Children for sake my Law , if they break my Statutes , then will I visit their Transgressions with the Rod , and their Iniquity with Stripes ; nevertheless my Loving Kindness will I not utterly take from him : I ask , From Whom ? Was it not David that is beloved , who as he entered into Covenant and Agreement with God , he was his Servant anointed with the holy Oyl ? There remained a true and tender Seed in him which the Name Beloved most properly related to ; though the Man passed through great Judgment and Tribulation , he obtained Forgiveness , and God had such regard to him for his own Name and Seed sake , and the Sincerity that had a Root in him , that his Children fair'd the better in some respects for his sake , 1 Kings , 11 , 12. howbeit , this proves not that all the Seed of David after the Flesh , kept their Covenant with God , or stood in his Grace , so as not at all : to fall from it ; for , however God for a time retains Favour , Kindness and Patience to Revolters , who have tasted of his Grace and Power , as very unwilling they should be utterly lost , yet in departing from the Lord into Iniquity , they do in themselves turn from and abuse his Grace , not being stedfast therein with the Lord : So that the Instance proves not , that his loving Kindness did always continue unto such as run into Adultery , Idolatry and Abominations , and continuing in Rebellion , after their many gentle Chastisements , though the Lord is long suffering , and keepeth Covenant and Mercy with them that fear him ; his Faithfulness fails not ; he is ready to fulfil the terms of his Covenant and Promise on his part . I Would ask our Opposer ( who reckons it not a falling from Grace , for those he counts Elect Persons , as David and his Children , with others of his own Opinion now , to sall into the Guilt of Adultery and Murther , &c. ) whether or no did not his Son Solomon fall from Grace when he loved the outlandish Women , so as they turned away his Heart aster other God's ? 1 Kings 11. Did he stand in the Covenant of Grace , or in God's Favour all this time ? Was not the Lord angrv with him ? See ver . 10 , 11 , 12. And surther that of Psal. 89. Concerning David , his Seed and Throne , it extends further then meerly a literal Relation of him and his Seed , according to the Flesh ; for David is beloved : I have sound David my Servant ; with my holy Oyl have I anointed him , ver . 20. his Seed also will I make to endure for ever , and his Throne as the dayes of Heaven , ver . 29. his Seed shall endure forever , and his Throne as the Sun before me , ver . 36. Herein David was truly a Type of Christ , the Anointed of God , to whom these Promises relate , which were typified in David ; as also that saying , I will make him my First-b●…rn , higher t●…en the Kings of the Earth , ver . 27. This is a Mystery beyond a meer Literal Acceptation ; and I may say in this , as the Apostle said in his Instance of Abraham and his Seed , That , as they that were of Faith , were of Abraham and his Children ; so they that are spiritually anointed of God , and his Beloved Children and Faithful Servants , are of David's Seed , even such who incline their Ear to God , and obey his Voyce ; for it is written , Hearken diligently unto me , and eat ye that which is Good ; and let your Soul delight it self in Fatness : Incline your Ear and come unto me ; hear , and your Soul shall live ; and I will make an Everlasting Covenant with you , even the sure Mercies of David , Isa. 55. 2 , 3. A POSTSCRIPT about the Will of God , Election and Reprobation . Concerning the Will of God in its Manifestation , both 1st , as unresistable . ●…dly , as resistable . sect 1 FIrst , On what Considerations it may be said to be unresistable , shewing forth the Might of his Power ; as , 1. In bringing forth the Works of Creation ; Whatsoever he pleased that did he , Psal. 135. 6. 2. In fore-ordaining his Son to be set forth in him , to tender Grace and Salvation in due time to Mankind ( Who could hinder his first Ordination , though many reject the Tenders ? ) 3. In extending his Light and Power universally to the final Conviction of Impenitent Evil-doers for their Rebellion ( which Light and Power unavoidably at times seizes upon their Consciences , reproving and convicting them while they have a Day ; and though they may shun being reformed thereby , yet they cannot alwayes avoid the Torment and Trouble thereof in themselves ) That God may shew himself clear when he Judgeth . 4. In bringing and executing his Judgments and Wrath as he sees Cause , upon the Wicked and Rebellious , who are finally Impenitent . By all which God hath manifested his Power ( or Soveraignity ) which on these Considerations hath irresistably shewed it self for the fulfilling his Righteous Will , so far as it hath absolutely extended it self from an Intention or Design of God , to shew forth his Wisdom , Justice , and the Greatness or Might of his Power , without the Creature Complyance ; as , 1. God's Work of Creation . 2. His Fore-ordination , to bring forth his Son into the World , &c. 3. His Power in finally Convicting Rebellious Sinners . 4. The Execution of his Judgments upon the Rebellious . In all these who shall say to God , What doest thou ? Who shall let what he will do , so far as his Will inevitably and unresistably hath acted , or doth act in any thing without Man's Complyance , as it was in Making Man ; in Convicting and Condemning the Rebellious and Stubborn ? But Secondly , The Will and Power of God as condescending and reaching gradually to the Creature 's Capacity , it is possible ●…or Men to resist the Manifestation thereof to their own Condemnation : As the Will of God is manifest in a Way of Friendship and Kindness to Mankind , as , 1. In a way of Counsel , Commands , Instructions , Invitations , Perswasions and gentle Reproofs ( which have a tendence to draw Men out of Sin ) and 2. In his Patience and long Suffering towards them , waiting to be gratious , desiring their Return , striving with them by his Spirit : Thus his Will is , That all should know the Truth and be saved , 1 Tim. 2. 4. 2 Pet. 3. 9. But Mens Conversion and Salvation is not wrought without their Subjection , Obedience and Complyance with the Spirit and Power of God , co-operating by Faith. Reprobation What it is ? A Reproving , Disallowing , Rejecting . sect 2 Reprobate is , Wicked , Base , Dishonest , Corrupt , so as to be cast out of God s Favour , &c. And the Cause of Persons being given over to a Reprobate Mind , is their Rebellion against Light given them ; their rejecting the Knowledge of God , till their Minds became so reprobate or corrupt , as to be void of true Sence and Judgment , Rom. 1. As they who w●…re called Reprobate Silver ( or as corrupt , drossy , false Coyn ) were rejected of the Lord , Jerem. 6. 30. The Word Election explained . Election is Choice , which respects both : sect 3 I. The chusing of some from amongst many , as Christ said to his Followers , I have chosen you out of the World , Joh. 15. 19. II. The Excellency or Choiceness of that which is chosen ; And this relates , First , To Christ , the Elect Seed , of whom it is said , Behold my Servant , mine Elect , in whom my Soul delighteth , Isa. 42. 1. And He is also called a chief Corner-Stone , Elect , Pretious , 1 Pet. 2. 6. Secondly , To the true Church or Elect People , who ( being chosen through Sanctification of the Spirit and Belief of the Truth ) are the faithful Followers of Christ ; these are choice and pretious in God's Sight , and therefore are called the Elect of God , Holy and Beloved , Col. 3. 12. a chosen Generation , a Royal Priesthood , an Holy Nation , a peculiar People , &c. 1 Pet. 2. 9. They that are with the Lamb , are Called , Chosen and Faithful , Rev. 17. 14. the Pretious Sons of Sion , comparable to fine Gold , Lam. 4. 2. This God's Election or Choice of his Church or People , is gradually manifest and experienced in them : as , 1st , When they have known the Work of God by his Grace begun it them unto their Separation from the World , through a Decree of Faith and Sanctification , are called Elect , that is , as chosen out of the World , or from among Men , being more peculiar to God then others ; while yet they are not perfectly grown and established in the Truth : as Israel of old was Elect , and Jerusalem chosen ( before their Estrangement from God , Esa. 44. 1. 1 Kings 11. 13. ) Paul was a Chosen Vessel , when first he had received and obeyed the heavenly Vision and Call , Acts 9. 15. and Chap. 26. 19. Who notwithstanding after that said , I keep my Body under , and bring it into Subjection , left that by any means , when I have preached to others , I my self should be a Cast away , 1 Cor. 9. 27. and those whom the Apostle Peter , in his first Epistle calls Elect , in his second Epistle he exhorts to give all D●…ligence to make their Calling and Election sure , that so they might never fall , 2 Peter 1. 10. Exhorting or warning them from divers Examples of them that fell from Grace , denyed the Lord that bought them , backslid , and became Enemies , Chap. 2. throughout ; And this second Epistle was to stir up their pure minds , Chap. 3. 1. 2dly , Election in the heighth or perfection of it , as attained to in the full Growth of the Elect Seed , and Establishment of the Children of Light , in and by the Grace of God ( through Diligence and Faithfulness on their parts ) this admits not of being deceived , nor of falling , nor of backsliding , as Christ intimates an Impossibility that the very Elect should be deceived , Mat. 24. 24. And they who through Diligence have made their Calling and Election sure , shall never fall , 2 Pet. 1. 10. being grown up in the Life , Nature a●…d Image of the Elect Seed , which the Prince of the World hath nothing in . Oh! All you in whom there yet remains a Sincerity and Breathing after the Lord , labour in the Light of Christ by the Assistance of his Grace in you , to make your Calling and Election sure , in this Elect Seed , and none conceit your selves secure out of it : For , God's Fore-knowledge and Fore-appointment of his People sect 4 unto Life and Glory , is in this his own Seed ; in this they are known of him , related to him , in this chosen of him , and Choice to him , and in his sight as his peculiar Treasure ; in this he did fore-know , and doth predestinate or appoint them to be conformed to the Image of his Son , that he might be the First-Born in many Brethren , Rom. 8. 29. ( yea and the sanctified Children of believing Parents ) Their Growth and Security was to be in this Elect Seed of Life , or otherwise they might degenerate , as Israel of old did , after they were planted of a Noble Vine , and an holy right Seed . If it should be said , that this of Rom. 8. intimates some special Fore-knowledge * and Purpose of God , concerning these many Brethren thus Conformed , as unto Witnesses chosen before of God , Christ s Resurrection was manifest for them to preach , Act. 10. 40 , 41. To this I say , Grant it doth ; We confess both God's Fore-sight and Fore-knowledge of his own , and deny not his Omniscienc●… , nor limit his Power or Omnipotency from shewing forth it self both how , after what manner , at what time , and in whom soever he pleaseth , as sometimes he doth miraculously upon Eminent Occasions , and for peculiar Works , Ends and special Services , as is that of true Prophets , Apostles , Ministers of Righteousness ; or those many Brethren unto whom in their Day Christ was first manifest , and in whom he was first revealed , formed and born , who in their Day were first raised up to witness forth his Power , as the Prophet Jeremiah was sanctified before he came forth of the Womb , for his peculiar Service , as an Eminent Prophet ; and John was filled with the holy Ghost from his Mothers Womb , that he might be a Witness to the Messiah ; and Paul was miraculously stopt from Persecution by a Heavenly Vision , which he obeyed , and was called into the Work of a Faithful Apostle , God having separated him from his Mothers Womb , and called him by his Grace , to shew forth his Universal Kindness and Love to others , to turn People from Darkness to the Light : and many other Instances might be shewn of God's taking particular notice of his Witnesses and Servants for peculiar Services ( yet the Growth , standing and Security of all was by Faith and Obedience in the Power of God ) who , though in their Age and Times were as the first ( and so Choice ) Fruits to God ; yet , this neither hinders his second Fruits ( but rather to further them and his Work , so as his Name might be the more spread ) Nor do these Instances prove any Limitation of God's universal Love in Christ ( as only to a few ) Nor frustrate the free extent of his Grace ; nor yet hinder Salvation from being common in the Freeness and free Tenders of it to Mankind . CHAP. VI. Whether PERFECTION , that is , a State sreed from all Sin , be attainable in this Life ? Let the Reader observe the State of the Question , which is not , Whether the Saints had Failings , or upon extream Tryals , might not be tempted into Impatiency ? but , Whether such a State of Perfection be attainable in this Life ? which we affirm . Attainable , chiefly , because of the Aid and Assistance of God's Power afforded unto them who wait upon him , and trust in his Name and Power ; for , Greater is He that is in us , then he that is in the World : Christ is stronger then the Devil ; therefore the Devil is not an invincible Enemy ; and we can do all things through Christ that strengthneth us . 2. A Sinless State is attainable by true Believers , because God hath commanded it ( who doth not command Impossibilities ) to Abraham and his Seed , and said , I am God Almighty , walk before me and be thou perfect ; Sin not . Be ye perfect a●… y ur h●…avenly Father is perfect . 3. Because he hath promised it to his peculiar People ; Thy People shall be a●…l Righteous ; they shall do no Iniquity that trust in the Name of the Lord ; Christ shall thorowly Purge his Floor . 4. Christ's Work and Ministry is , to destroy the Work of the Devil ; to present men perfect ; to bring them to a perfect man in him ; to subject every Thought unto his Obedience , &c. Therefore , to affirm the contrary , or that a State free from all Sin is not attainable in this Life , is to oppose the all-Sufficiency of God's Almighty Power , and t●… set the Devil's Power above it ; as also to oppose the Ends of God's Command , Promise , the Work of Christ and his Ministry , which to oppose or render frustratious , by pleading or arguing for Sins Continuance in this Life , is Impious and Antichristian : And , how far this Opposer is herein concerned , will further appear . Whereas he puts two differing Senses on the word Perfection ; viz. a State free from all Sin , as that of the Spirits of Just men , Heb. 12. 23. And yet that it doth not alwayes sig●…ifie free from all Sin , &c. I ask then , What Christ maketh true Believers perfect in ? Is it in any thing consistent with Sin ; or in himself in whom is no Sin , whom he that abideth in , sinneth not ? I cannot understand that Perfection , as it is the Effect of Christ's Work in true Believers , can admit of the Continuance of Sin all their Dayes , while it signifies both the Reality and Compleatness of his Works . His Instance for P●…rfection not free from all Sin , is Job 1. 1. Job was a Perfect man , yet not without Sin ; for he Cursed his Day . It is evident that Job's Perfection had none of this Extream in it , nor did it consist with Sin ; for it is thus explained , He feared God & eschewed Evil. — And upon his Loss of Goods and Children , being told him , it s said of him ; in all this Job sinned not , nor Charg●…d God Foolishly , Chap. 1. 22. and when smitten with sore Boyls , and tempted by his Wise ; it is also said in all this did not Job si●… with his Lips , Chap. 2. 10. But , he Cursed his Day , Chap. 3. He was then under an extream Tryal and Grief divers wayes aggravated ; the most that can be reasonably inferred from thence , is , that a Perfect or Upright Man that fears God , a●…d eschews Evil , may possibly through great Tryals , Temptations or Provocations , be drawn into an extream to express his Grief : but this only , if God suffers Satan so to affict , or deeply to try : for , he could not have so afflicted Job , if God had not suffered him , in that he saw the Lord had hedged him about . From whence observe , that what is granted hereupon , and what he argues , is not in pursuance of the State of the Question , as to grant , that a Perfect Job may be tempted into some extream Expressions , if God Suffer Satan so deeply to afflict him : but , Whether it be not possible for such a one to be delivered as well from all Failings or Sin , as from the Tryal or Temptation ? For was not Job a Perfect Man both before and after his Deep Affliction ? and is not his Patience highly commended of , who said , when I am tried I shall come forth as Gold ? Now , when I affirm that this refined State was attainable in this Life , were it not absurd to object , that it is not , because Job cursed his Day ? for did Job do so all his Life time ; or did his Perfection reach no higher ? His Instance , That God took six Dayes to create the World , when he could have done it in a Moment , is no Proof that he is only a mortifying Sin more and more in this Life , and that he will remove its Being in the next , pag. 63. Neither do the Scriptures any where say , that the Being of Sin ( yet mortified in part ) shall remain in the Saints till , the next Li●…e ; though we grant , God took six Dayes to create the World , and rested the seventh ; and so he carrieth on his Work gradually in the true Believer for the perfecting of the new Creation ; the six I ayes Work thereof , as also the Seventh Day of Rest , are to be experienced in this Life : the Work o●… Holiness is to be perfected while in the Body , and he that believeth enters into his Rest or Sabbath , to injoy the holy Day in that inward retired waiting upon the Lord in his own Light , wherein Man must not think his own Thoughts , nor speak his own Words : And as for God's Work , it is perfect ; each Day 's Work was perfect ( as such ) the first Day 's Work not mended on the sixth Day ; and he that hath begun a good Work in the Soul is able to perfect it . Whereas S. S. states the Question and Answer thus , viz. Quest. But why will he not in this Life ? ( viz. remove the Being o●… Sin ) He answers , It is his good Pleasure . I Reply , A damnable Doctrine to affirm that it is God's Good Pleasure , that the Being of Sin should remain in his Saints all their Life time , or till the next ; when he hath no Pleasure in Evil , therefore doth prohibit all Sin. Quest. Can he see the Continuance of Evil good ; or that his Command should not be kept ? To this he answers . He sees good to suffer Corruptions in par 〈◊〉 in his Saints , to keep them humble , drive them to his Blood and Righteousness , &c. Reply , Let the so●…er Reader mark the Nature and Tendency of this Do●…rine . First , How Impiously he reflects upon God ; as seeing it Good to suffer Corruptions , either but in part mortified , or in part unmortified in his Saints ( in this Life ) for his Doctrine bears the same Sense on both Hands , as that God sees it good to suffer Corruptions ; if but in part mortified , then in part unmortified in his Saints . And then 2dly , What a great Use and Service doth he place upon the remaining of Corruptions in the Saints , as namely , to keep them humble , exercise and drive them to his Blood and Righteousness , which is as good Doctrine , as to say , There is a Necessity for the Saints to sin , that they may be humbled , ; to do Evil , that Good may come of it : and by this , the more they sin , the more humble ; the more Unrighteous or Corrupt , the more Partakers of the Blood & Righteousness of Christ ; which are gross I●…consistencies : Shall we sin that Grace may abound ? God forbid . Christ's Blood cleanseth us from all Sin , as we walk in the Light ; and his Righteousness admitteth of no Iniquity to continue : For us to feel the Remission of Sins past , through the Blood and Righteousness of Christ , when we are come to the lively Act and Operation of Faith , therein doth sufficiently render the infinite Perfection of Pardoning Grace both splendent and glorious ; and not to say , That God sees good that Corruptions in part should continue in his Saints to keep them humble : for this is a manifest pleading for Sin , and a Commendation given to it , as to those good Effects ( vainly supposed ) of Corruptions , viz. To keep the Saints humble , to drive them to his Blood ; whereas when they are truly humbled , and Partakers of the Blood and Righteousness of Christ , and living in the Sence thereof , they withstand all Sin and Iniquity , and dare not give way thereto , that they may be righteous : They that will teach men true Humility , must not teach them to be Proud , that they may be Humble ; nor tell them , that it is God's good Pleasure that the Being of Sin and Corruptions must remain in them all their dayes , or till the Life to come , to keep them humble ; neither is a perfect or holy State so void of true Humility as this Sin-pleasing Doctrine implyeth . But this is something like the Papists high Commendation of Man's Fall , where , in their Saturday-Mass , in the Deacon's Hymn are these words , O 〈◊〉 necessarium Adae peccatum quod Christi morte deletum est . O felix culpa quae talem ac tantum meruit habere redemptorem . O vere 〈◊〉 nox , quae sola meruisti scire tempus & horam , in qua Christ us ab inferis resurrexit . i. e. O surely the Sin of Adam was necessary , which by Christ's Death was blotted out . O blessed Fault , that hast deserv'd to have so great and such a Redeemer . O truly blessed Night , which alone hast deserv'd to know the Time and Hour , wherein Christ rose from the Hells . Again , To prove it God's good Pleasure not to remove the Being of Sin in this Li●…e , that he sees good to suffer Corruptions , &c. And in answer to my Objection , That his Pleasure is not contrary to his Command , which requireth us to be perfect , he saith . God commands to offer Isaac , he purposeth Isaac shall not be offer'd ; this shews he doth not efficaciously will every thing he commands , p. 64. Rep. First , This Instance is not pertinent in this Case , it being a peculiar Command and Act to Abraham , and not common to the Saints , nor relative to those Commands injoyning Holiness of Li●…e , which they are all concerned in . 2dly , He is mistaken in saying , He purposeth Isaac shall not be offered ; for the Scripture saith , That by Faith Abraham , when he was tryed , offered up Isaac ; and he that had received the Promises , offered up his only begotten Son , Hebr. 11. 17. It is evident , that neither God's Command nor Purpose was , to kill Isaac ; but that Abraham's Faith should be tryed in offering him up , which by Faith he did ; in which he said , God would provide himself a Lamb for a Burnt Offering , Gen. 22. 8. And he accounting , that God was able to raise him up even from the Dead , from whence also he received him in a Figure , Hebr. 〈◊〉 . 19. But this is no Proof , that it is not his Pleasure , his Commands requiring perfect Love & Obedience , s●…ould be kept ; and they that enter into the Covenant of Grace , enter into an Agreement with God in Christ , which though it remits Sins past , yet gives no Liberty to continue in Sin ; neither is it any Condition of this Covenant , that the Being of Sin should remain to keep the Saints humble ; for , by this Covenant God taketh away Sin , not only by Remission , but by Receiving the Soul into Agreement with himself . Jesus Christ is our Surety , Mediator and Advocate , both in his being a Propitiation or Sacrifice for the Sins of the whole World , that upon the Act of Faith in his Blood , and believing in his Name , Sins past may be remitted ; as also in his inabling us to obey the Conditions and Obligation of the Covenant of Grace ( or Law thereof ) which we are under , and in fulfilling the Promises thereof to us ; for without him we can do nothing , we can obtain ●…o P●…iviledge but in him , in whom the Promises of Cod are all Yea and Amen : And seeing God receiveth true Believers in Christ into Agreement with himself , Christ being their Surety , doth not exempt them from the Payment of what is their due Obedience , but inables them thereto ; for , to be in Covenant or Agreement with God , is neither consistent with disagreeing with him by Transgression or sinning against him . When or where Sin shall be removed after Death , he resolves not : He tells us not , How long a time shall be between Death and the perfect Removal of Sin ; for a Purgatory he seemeth not in words to own , how nearly related soever his Doctrine be to it in his saying , It sufficeth me to be assured from God's Word , it ( Sin ) is not done away in this Life ; it shall in the next . But where and what that God's Word is , that so assureth him , That Sin is not done away in this Life , but in the next , he hath not yet demonstrated nor proved ; nor doth he clear himself of the Pope's Doctrine of a Purgatory , but confesseth , That no unclean thing shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven ; since Christ is to present us holy , unblamable and unreprovable in his Sight , a glorious Church , not having Spot or Wrinkle , p. 64. Mark here , how he hath manifestly contradicted his pleading for the Being of Sin in the Saints , and saying , It is not done away in this Life , and yet the Church must be holy , unbl●…mable and unreprovable in his Sight , not having Spot or Wrinkle ; but then he addeth further , as a part of what Christ hath merited touching this Point , and in pag. 67. He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified meritoriously . To which I say , Hath Christ merited or purchased the Church's Beauty and Perfection , even perfect Sanctification ; and yet is it his Father's good Pleasure , that the Church shall not receive such Perfection here ? Or that the Being of Sin shall not be remov'd in this Life ? Were it not Blasphemy to suppose , That Christ hath bought for man that which his Father will not allow him ? But I must suppose his Sence of Christ's Merit , Dignity , Righteousness and Obedience , as not to be really partaken of and inherited by true Believers in this Life , but only in their Sence of Imputation , which can be neither real nor true , to reckon themselves Holy , Unblamable , Unreprovable , without Spot or Wrinkle , while yet spotted with Sin and inherent Corruptions ; though still I grant , that every Degree of Real Righteousness , true Faith and Sincerity to God , springing up from his own Life in his Children , is owned and accounted of in his Sight ; for the Lord is well-pleased for his own Righteousness sake , Isa. 42. 21. and the Fruits of his own Spirit are acceptable to him , from the highest Growth and Maturity to the least Appearance , breathing and breaking forth thereof in the Soul , yea , from Israel's Tryumphing and Glorying in the Lord , to Niniveh's believing God and repenting ; and God commands us nothing but what he inableth us to perform , although against this S. S. objects , that he commands from the Beginning of Life to the End of Life , to continue in all things written in the Law to do them ; but where this is commanded us in Scripture , he shews us not : We are satisfied , that God layeth no more upon man , as to doing or performing , then he inableth man ; for his Commands are gradually and orderly imposed to be obeyed , according to the Ability that he giveth the Creature ; he doth not command a Child to do a Man's Work ; he is no hard Master : So in the Covenant of Grace there is a Growth from one Degree of Strength to another , 〈◊〉 Faith to Faith , from Little Children to Young Men , &c. and so according to their Growth and Capacity God requires Obedience , and doth not impose Impossibilities o●… them . And if so be that the Power and Glory of God be more manifest in the Second Covenant ( or in the New Covenant of Grace ) then in the First Covenant ; by how much the greater man's Priviledge is in this , by so much the more he is inabled by the same Power cheerfully to live in Obedience and Faithfulness under it . Therefore S. S. his being assured , That Sin is not done away in this Life , and his Con●…ession , That a Believer dyes unto Sin by degrees , and so AT his Death the whole of Christ's Merit is immediately applyed , whereby Sin is forever totally abolished : These are not consistent , neither doth he write as a man of Experience of the Work of God , what Assurance foever he pretends ; sor to say , That his Sin is not done away in this Life , or that it sh●…ll in the next ; and yet to say , It is totally abolished AT his Death : These are as Contradictory as to say , That S●…n is done away At Death , and yet it is not done away till After Death , which is ( saith he ) to the last Trump will Sin be in the Saints , p. 64. and when that shall be he explains p. 85. at his Coming in the End of the World , quoting 1 Thes. 4. 17. Mark Reader here , how plainly he contradicteth his Saying , That At Death Sin is forever totally abolished : Now , it is in the End of the World , when Christ cometh Personally ( as he supposeth ) to Judgment ; So by this confused Work , one while Sin is Not done away in this Life ; another while , it Is done away At Death ; another while , it Is done away After Death ; another while , it is Not done away Till the last Trump or End of the World ; whereas there are many Believers and Saints deceased in the mean time , and many long since dissolved as to their outward Man , what becomes of their Souls between the Time of their Departure , and the End of the World ? for he hath confessed that No Unclean Thing shall enter the Kingdom of God : So then , if the Saints deceased be not throughly cleansed from Sin before , nor Sin to be done away till the E●…d of the World , what other Place besides Heaven , ca●… he provide or think of for the Saints deceased ? How can he avoid the Pope's imagined Purgatory , unless he hold the Mortality of the Soul , that it dyes or sleeps in the Dust with the Body ? To his alledging , That the Ministry is to continue to the last Trump ; and to the last Trump will Sin be in the Saints ; but then in a Moment will the Saints be changed and perfected . If he intends that the Saints have their Benefit and part in the Ministry , each in their Life time and several Ages , how doth this clear his concluding , that to the End of the World or last Trump , Sin will be in the Saints ; that then in a Moment they shall be changed ? for many of the Saints are deceased many Hundreds of Years since , which if Sin be in them still , they do not particularly partake of the blessed End of Christ's Ministry and Gifts , which were for the Perfecting of the Saints , till all come into the Unity of the Faith , and of the Knowledge of the Son of God , unto a Perfect Man , &c. and yet those deceased Saints are not now under the Ministry of Apostles , &c. From Ephes. 4. 13. he saith , That perfect Man is Christ with all his Members ; for he consists of many : and he is thus to be a perfect Man in the other World , not this , pag. 46. Whereas the Benefit of God's Gifts did as well extend to the particular Saints and Members of his Body , as to the whole Body , to wit , till we all come in the Unity of the Faith , &c. That we henceforth be no more Children tossed to and fro , &c. Ephes. 4. 14. There is no Danger of their being tossed in the other World with Windy Doctrines ; Both their Perfection , and Establishment , and Growing up in Christ in all things , being Effects of his Gifts and Ministry , which were experienced and obtained in this Life . S. S. The Ministry and Scriptures were perfecting the Saints as long as they live , Deut. 17. 19. The King shall read therein all the Dayes of his Life , that he may Learn to fear therein the Lord his God : If he is to Learn to fear God all the Dayes of his Life , &c. pag. 65. Answ. Are the Saints then but a Learning to fear the Lord God all the Dayes of their Life ? or , Doth that King in the time of the Old Covenant represent the best State of the Saints in the New , the King that was forbidden to multiply Wives , Horses , Silver or Gold to himself ? Are the best of Saints in the New Covenant in Danger of these things , and therefore to be restrained by an outward Law , that their Hearts turn not away from the Lord ? whereas he hath promised , I will put my Fear in their Hearts , and they shall not depart from me : and this is a Condition of his Everlasting Covenant . That there is a time of Perfecting Believers or Saints before they are Perfected , I confess ; as , while God was Creating the World , it was not Created ; but I differ with him in his counting it God's good Pleasure , that Sin should remain in the Saints , and that to keep them Humble , either till Death , till after Death , or to the End of the World : and it were more absurd to say , That Sin will remain even in the Saints deceased till the End of the World , to keep them Humble . It is true as he saith , That whilst a Carpenter is building an House , the House is not builded , pag. 65. but then , if the Carpenter undertakes to build a House , and bargains for a Price to build it , and then doth not build it , or tells a Man whose Money he hath got , It is true I took your Money to perfect this Building , but I can get but little of it builded , you must not expect to have it builded while you live ; Would not the Man reply then , Give me my Money again ? But Carpenters do not use to cheat men thus ; They that are Honest do not use to serve People as you pretended Ministers do , who say , You are sent for Perfecting the Saints , and for this take Money , and Gifts , and Rewards , and yet tell them , Perfection is NOT attainable in this Life : Honest Carpenters would not deal thus with them . In Psalm 119. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. Blessed are the Undefiled in the Way , he saith , In Point of Justification , Believers are in Christ their Head , clear as the Moon , fair as the Sun ; In Point of Sanctification , through the Renewing and Assisting Grace they do not allow themselves in any known Sin , but in God's Fear oppose all , pag. 65. He hath said enough to break the Neck of his own Cause , 1st , Unless to be In Christ Spotless , Clear as the Moon , and Fair as the Sun , be a Spotted or Sinful State. 2dly , Unless that there must remain some Sins in those that are in Christ , which cannot be known to them ; whereas he that abideth in Christ sinneth not : And He hath left us an Example , that we should follow his Steps , who did not sin . And the Word Justifie sometimes useth to signifie to make Just by inherent Holyness ; or to Sanctifie , as he confesseth pag. 89. Upon Titus 3. 5. 7. But if to evade this , he renders Justification in their sense of Im●…utation ; then it is , to reckon them Spotless , Clear as the Moon , Fair as the Sun , who are yet Spotted , Corrupted and Defiled with Sin : But if in the Fear of the Lord true Believers , through Renewing and Assisting Grace , do not allow themselves in any known Sin , but in God's Fear oppose all , then if a Discovery of all Sin by the Light be attainable to them , not only to Oppose , but to Overcome all Sin through assisting Grace , is attainable in this Life ; for , Resist the Devil , and he will flye : And we can do all things through Christ that strengthneth us ; knowing our Faith in him , which is the Victory , and also obtaineth actual Dominion over Sin. Whereas Psal. 119. 3. They also do no Iniquity , was further urged against him ; And he that abideth in Christ sinneth not , doth not commit Sin , in whose Spirit is no Guile : To this he answer , So far as Regenerate , and acting from the Regenerate part , they do no Iniquity . This is such Tautologie , or as good sense as to say , they do no Iniquity so far as they do no Iniquity ; whereas the Words are positive and plain , They are undefiled in the way ; they keep his Testimonies ; they walk in his wayes . Whereas he still insers , the Saints are not perfectly free from Sin ; for when Paul did NO Iniquity Sin dwelt in him ; and yet in that State Paul said , The Evil that I do I would not : Did he do Evil , and yet no Iniquity ? or was Victory over , and Freedom from that Evil not attainable by him in this Life ? What Evil did he live and dye in ? or what Sin must remain in him , now being deceased , till the End of the World ? S. S. Nor will G. W. say , I suppose no Man is Regenerate , but who is perfectly free from Sin ; To this I say , according to his own words before : As while the Saints are Persecting , they are not perfected ; so there is a Regenerating and a Travailing in Birth before Regenerated and born again . Of Rom. 8. 1. he saith , This intimates there is Flesh in such though Guilt is Removed . Herein is a two-fold Error couched : 1st , Implying the Guilt removed , while the Sin it self remains ; as if a Man could commit Sin and not be Guilty of it . 2dly , He confounds Sin and Flesh , and renders them Inseparable ; whereas he grants in the Scripture before , there is no Condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus , who walk not a●…ter the Flesh , but after the Spirit . He perverts , Job 9. 19. and 1 J●…h . 3. saying , If I sin , as do the wicked , with Allowance , here he adds [ WITH ALLOWANCE ] for it is plain , if I Sin then thou markest me ; whosoever is born of God doth not commit Sin : It is not , Doth not commit Sin with Allowance as do the Wicked : And the Saints on Earth enjoying Communion with God , and Saints in Heaven ( as he saith ) is not a Communion in Sin ; neither is the Being of Sin according to the Will of God in Heaven , which is prayed for so to be done in Earth . If he grant it our Duty to be Perfect , or perfectly to obey , while he denyes Power or Possession for that End , his Work is Weakness it self , and inconsistent with it self ; God is no such Hard Master , as to enjoyn . Impossibilities upon us , or to require Obedience beyond the Power he gives . Will he say , None are Sanctified that have any Sin in them ? I say , according to his Concession before ; There is a Time of Sanctifying as well as Perfecting before the Work be effected , which ought to be throughout in Body , Soul and Spirit . If he cleanseth away all Guilt from Believers , and the reigning Power of Sin in this Life , Why should the Being of Sin remain till the next ? He hath wa●…hed us from our Sins in his own Blood , before which there is a time of having Sin , 1 Joh. 1. 8. yet said he , My little Children , These Things write I unto you that ye sin not , chap. 2. 1. Can the Work of Faith and Grace be sinful ? He answers , Faith it self can be imperfect ; therefore the Work of Faith : Lord , I believe , help my Unbelief ; Imperfection is Sin , Perfection is Duty , p. 67. Rep. By the same Reason Unbelief is Sin ; but Faith is Duty : They ought not thus to be confounded ; nor Unbelief , which is the Creatures Defect , imputed to Faith , which is the Gift of God , a Fruit of his Spirit ; therefore pure , as he confesseth to his own plain Confutation , The Work or Thing wrought is alwayes perfect for its Part , Nature or Kind , the least Draghm of Grace true , p. 68. From whence it follows , that true Faith is pure in its kind , and not sinful , nor having Sin mixt with it , though it doth grow and encrease . Degrees of that which is of a pure or perfect Nature , do not alter its Property ; And the saving Work of the Spirit is carried on by degrees . His citing 1 Thes. 3. 10. praying that we might see your Face , and perfect that which is lacking in your Faith , p. 68. This proves not true Faith to have Sin in it ; but that in some there might be something lacking in it , as to Growth and Increase of Effects ; and which some read thus , FULFILL that which is lacking . It is not that we might add more Purity to your Faith , but more Joy , Comfort , Refreshment , Edification , &c. unto you in the Faith for Imperfection ( where it imports only the Want of full Growth or Maturity of that which in its kind is pure ) is not Sin ; and Imperfection and Sin have not the same Signification ; for Imperfection , as it relates to a Thing or Work not fulfilled or finished , it implies a Work begun ; and they who have known the Work of God begun in them , and Faith in his Power , they dare not plead for Sin , nor cast it upon God , as his good Pleasure , that the Being of Sin should not be removed in this Life , but know that the good Pleasure and Will of God is their Sanctification ; and therefore wait upon him for the perfecting of it . His accusing David with having Failings in the End of his Dayes , and asserting the Perfection of his War-like Attempts , not of his Graces , p. 68. This Accusation against David , he hath neither proved by Scripture , nor shewed what Failings he had in the End of his Dayes ; nor yet that his Graces were imperfect ; for God was the Lise and Grace of all his Graces ; and he said , God is my Strength and Power , and he maketh my Way perfect , 2 Sam. 22. 23. And were not his inward War-like Attempts against his Soul's Enemy , both perfect and succesful , as well as his outward ? Did he not confess to the Lord , Thou hast also given me the Shield of Salvation ; and said , He is the Tower of Salvation ; and in his last Words , He hath made with me an Everlasting Covenant , ordered in all things and sure ; for this is all my Salvation , 〈◊〉 Sam. 23. The Means for a Man to have his Way made per●…ect , is to know the Lord to be his Strength and Power , a strong Tower , and Salvation : Thus he is known to them that truly wait upon him . If in this Life our Work be not to let Sin reign , not to obey it in the Lusts thereof , p. 68. why should we either commit Sin , or the Being of it remain in us , when we have received Power , so far to subdue it and bring it under ? And if the Lusts of it be not obeyed , but watched against , they will be subdued so far , as Sin may neither be brought forth , nor have a Being . If the Operation or working of the Spirit ●…e alwayes perfect , he working by infinite Wisdom and Power , p. 68. though the saving Work thereof be not presently fulfilled in all those Degrees of Perfection , it is to attain unto ; nor the Being of Sin forthwith excluded , p. 68. yet by Degrees it comes fully to be effected and Sin put an End to , as there is a waiting in Patience and Diligence upon him , who hath begun a good Work , who will also perfect it . That the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us ; on this he thus paraphraseth , Fulfill signifies sincerely to obey the Law , 1 Chron. 22. 13. that is , sincerely to obey every Precept , so far as we attain to understand it : Thus far he contradicts his pleading for the Being of Sin and Corruptions in the Saints , and his denying perfect Obedience to be attainable in this Life ; yet I assert , that Man in his own Will & Strength cannot attain sincerely to obey the Law of God ; but through the Power and Aid of Christ Jesus , he may attain to the Righteousness or Substance of the Law , to be fulfilled in him , being led by the Spirit of Life ; for the Law thereof in Christ makes free from the Law of Sin and Death : But when this Opposer adds , Thus in the other World God's People shall attain to fulfil the Righteousness of the Law , p. 69. Herein he perverts Scripture , and puts Christ's Work afar off , who is the End of the Law for Righteousness ( not to indulge Men in Sin ) to them that believe ; and he came to condemn Sin in the Flesh , that the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us , who walk not after the Flesh , but after the Spirit ; which State the Apostle did not put off to the other World. And if the Gospel , or Law of the Spirit of Life , free us from the Law of Sin and Death ; and Christ was sent to condemn Sin in the 〈◊〉 ( which Words he turns thus , viz. Condemned our Sin in him ) I say , First , Why should we be subject to the Law of Sin a●…d Death , or 〈◊〉 believe a Freedom from the Being of Sin , when its Power , Law , and Rule is taken away ? These are inconsistent : Must Men needs subject themselves to that , which is brought under by the Power of Christ , and Law of Life in him ? His saying , He condemned our Sin in him , will not excuse him from being condemned with Sin , if he doth not come to find Sin condemned and destroyed in himself ; and Man's Disobedience to the Law of God within will not be excused by what Christ hath done and suffered without ; neither will your Application cause you to be lookt on , as if from the Beginning of Life to the End to have obeyed the Law as Creatures , to have satisfied it as Sinners , p. 69. Surely God doth not so look upon you while you continue in Sin , and his Spirit striving with you , and reproving of you for Sin and Corruption : God and his Spirit do not so oppose on another ; and yet he is Gratious and Merciful , ready to pardon and forgive Sins past upon true Repentance , and that for Christ's sake , who is the Propitiation , &c. but the Notion of Satisfaction , as it is taken in the severe Sense of strict Payment in Law ( by undergoing the full Punishment ) It is not consistent with the Gratiousness of God , in forgiving Sins past on unfeigned Repentance ; but sufficient is said to that Point . He is offended that we should say to him and his Brethren , You plead for Sin ; he calls this an opprobrious and gross Slander ; but hath not cleared himself thereof , but verified it , as appears in this Discourse of his : And his saying , Who do more call Men off from sinning then we ( If he had added ) Who tell People , that to come off or be free from Sin , is not attainable in this Life ; and that it is God's good Pleasure , not to destroy the Being of Sin in this Life ; and that he sees good , Corruptions should remain in his Saints , to keep them humble , Then the World might easily have judged how heartily they call Men off from Sin , or rather , how they impiously plead for Sin as necessary . He sayes , Their Light without the Scriptures will help to call men off from Lying , Injustice , Uncleanness , &c. They should then obey it ; for then it necessarily calls unto Truth , Justice , Purity , &c. and consequently to Heaven : Depart from ●…vil and do Good , and dwell for evermore . We urge Men to the Observance of the Christian Sabbath , p. 69. And what is that Christian Sabbath ? And how do you urge men to Observe it ? Was not the Jews Sabbath a Type of the Christians Sabbath , or Rest ? And do they not cease from their own Works , and Thoughts ; being not to think their own Thoughts , on this Sabbath , or holy Day . We press to repent of the very Being of an evil Thought in us . But do you press it in the Faith ? Do you believe that the Being of evil Thoughts can be remov'd in this Life ; else what signifies your pressing to repent thereof ? Your Denouncing against men's Allowing themselves in Sin & Wickedness , Your saying , It is the Duty of all to be Perfect , to Press after it , to watch against all , even the least Sins , p. 70. What avails all this , when you press and preach thus in your Unbelief ? You unsay what you here pretend , when you tell people , It is God's Good Pleasure that the Being of Sin and Corruption should remain in his Saints to keep them humble : What Incouragement do you here give People to press after Perfection , and to watch against all Sin , when you tell them , A Sinless Perfection is not attainable ? But he brings an Instance for their Encouragement , as he thinks , viz. If two Companies of Children were to run a Race , and one should say to this Company , There are strong Men at the End of the Race ; if you run as strong and as fast as they can run , you are to enjoy a rich Inheritance ; but if not , you are to dy . By the way observe , he very egregiously doth mistate the Case and Doctrine of those called Quakers ; for they do not propose Heaven and Salvation upon these Terms , as for Children to run as fast as Men ; but that Children may become Men , and in the mean time act according to their Abilities , beyond which God doth not impose upon them , nor require of them ; but that the Race that is set before us may be run with Patience , which ought to have her perfect Work , that we may be perfect and intire , wanting nothing . It is certain , that they who have begun in the Spirit , and spiritual Journey , who are diligent , using their best Endeavours , and hold out , shall enjoy an Everlasting Inheritance : And this is not to cut off their Endeavours by Despair , as falsly is supposed against the Quakers , upon the said Mistating of their Case ; but your Preaching tends to Despair , when you press People after Purity and Perfection , and then tell them , It is Not attainable in this Life . He further adds against us : There must be no Sin at all in you , and then you shall obtain Salvation 〈◊〉 I must be quite free from all Sin here , or burn in Hell to all Eternity , pag. 70 , 〈◊〉 . Let it be understood , that we do not fall thus abruptly upon People , to surprise them with such Threatning them with Hell , as if we would fright them into Perfection , or drive them into Despair : He hath not herein proposed our Method in order to Freedom from Sin and Salvation ; for , first We preach the Grace , the Light , and Power of God , to be believed and patiently waited in ; and that Patience may have her perfect Work in order to Perfection and Freedom , which is not all wrought on a suddain , or presently upon Conviction ; for it will require both Faith , Patience , Diligence and Travail , to obtain it ; and we know that to obtain Salvation is to obtain Deliverance from Sin , and this is by Jesus Christ who saveth his People from their Sins . It is not our Method , first to say , There must be No Sin at all in you , and then you shall attain Salvation : Nor barely to say to People at first , You must be quite free from All Sin here , or burn in Hell hereafter ; for this ( though it hath a Truth in it ) is not a proposing the Ground and Foundation whereby to obtain Freedom , but an abrupt Threatning , tending to make Men look more at the Difficulty of the Condition , then at the Power of Christ to aid them for that End : And thus have the Papists misrepresented our Method in their Indefatigable Seeker , as if we presently imposed such a Difficulty , as the setting Men strictly to keep the Law , obey punctually in every Title , or else be damned : But this is to make way for their Purgatory ; and may be taken as if we set People on work in their own Wills and Power , to a most strict severe Life without the Power of God , whenas without that we can do nothing acceptably , and yet all things by that Power , or through him that strengthneth us . But whereas this man takes it for granted , that to be quite Free from all Sin here , or to keep the Commands of God , is Not attainable ; Let it be minded , that since he hath confessed , No Unclean Thing shall enter into Heaven ; And Christ proposed the Keeping the Commandments ( as namely , Thou shalt love the Lord thy God , with all thy Heart , &c. and thy Neighbour as thy self ) as the Way to inherit Eternal Life ; this Man doth render it impossible , either to enter in to Heaven , or inherit eternal Life , while he will not believe , that to keep the Commands of God ; is attainable ( though God assist his own thereto ) for to keep the Commands was , in order to inherit Eternal Life : So to say with Christ , if thou wilt enter into Heaven , keep the Commandements●… , and a Presbyter answers , No ; It is not possible to keep the Commands ; The Consequence is then , It is not possible to enter into Heaven : Or , it may be as well proposed , If thou wilt enter into Heaven , make thy self Wings and fly thither , or go and stop the Sun in its Cou se , or take the World on thy Back ; but God's and Christ's Commands imply no such Impossibility , but that they may be performed . We should not speak an idle Word ; we should not have one vain Thought in us , not one wandring Thought in Prayer , Eccl. 5. 3. We should not have one inordinate Desire , nor evil Imagination against our Neighbour , p. 71. He asked , If a State of Freedom from all these Sins were attainable in t●…is Life ? and that I had the Face to tell him it is ; but the Consciences of all enlightened Persons , Observers of their own Hearts , will bring in Testimony against me : Thi●… still shews his Presumption and Unbelief , while he grants it our Duty to for sake all these Evils , as , idle Words , vain Thoughts , wandering Thoughts in Prayer , inordinate Desires , evil Imaginations , &c. Where then is the Christian Sabbath in which Man is not to speak his own Words , nor think his own Thoughts ? And are not the Weapo●…s of the spiritual Warfare mighty thorrow God , to the pulling down of strong Holds , and the bringing every Thought into Subjection , into the Obedience of Christ ? And the Thoughts of the Just are right Thoughts : If the pulling down of Satan's Strong Holds , be attainable by the spiritual Weapons , much more the subjecting of wandring Thoughts , being watch'd against in the Light that discovers them : But , while he doth not believe that a Freedom from wandering Thoughts in Prayer is attainable , and yet confesseth that the holy Ghost calls a wandering Prayer a Dream , we are to understand that when you Presbyters bring forth your wandering Prayers with your wandering Thoughts in them , you are but dreaming ; and so meer Dreamers : you do not pray with the Spirit ; for that does not bring forth any such Wandering Prayers and Dreams . And be it further minded that his granting enlightned , Observers of their own Hearts do see wandering Thoughts and Imaginations , herein he hath given Concession to the inshining Light* as the Rule to discover wandering Thoughts , which is more then the Scriptures do , Therefore he and every one should attend and watch in the Light against Imaginations and wandring Thoughts , and not to suffer them in Prayer . From Job 9. 21. he concludes , That Job abhorreth to entertain such a Thought as being Perfect , pag. 72. Herein he hath wronged Job , for he counted it not consistent with Self-Abasement and Humility for him to say , I am Perfect , especially upon a Self-Justification , as his words before plainly intimate , If I Justifie my self , mine own Mouth shall condemn me , &c. Job 9. 20. Though I were Perfect , yet would I not know my Soul , vers . 21. Which proveth not , that Job abhorreth to entertain such a Thought as that of Perfection ; but rather , that it was not so proper for him to speak it in his own Justification ; for surely he did entertain such a Thought as that of Perfection , when he said , When he hath tryed me I shall come forth as Gold , Job 23. 10 , 11. The man 's gross Confusions about Job's Perfection , is hinted in our Paper , entituled , the Presbyters Antidote choaking himself . That saying , If our Hearts condemn us , God is Greater , doth not prove these holy Men knew God saw something in them which ought not to be , for which their Hearts condemn'd them so long as they lived ; for it is as well said , If our Hearts Condemn us not , then have we Confidence towards God. S. S. Thoughts prevailed against , and cast out , return again ; and their being in us , is Sin , Act. 8. 20. Thou thoughtst that the Gift of God might be purchased with Money , p. 72. Answ. A very pertinent Proof for the covetous Presbyters , the quondam Hireling Parish Priests ; but no meet Instance to prove , the Being of Evil Thoughts remain in all the holy Men of God ; nor an equal Comparison , to mention the corrupt and erroneous Thought of Simon the Sorcerer , as a Proof , that Thoughts preva●…led against and cast out , must return , and have their being in the Lord's People all their Dayes ; but while he grants that evil Thoughts are prevailed against and cast out , why doth he conclude they may not be kept out ? or that the keeping them out is not attainable in this Life , unless he will charge a Want of Diligence upon all the Faithful , or accuse them with neglecting their Watch ? for I affirm , that to keep out evil Thoughts is attainable through Diligence and Watchfulness in the same Light and Power that discovers them , prevails against th●…m , and cast's them out . To prove that such a State , as to be wholy free from all evil Principles , is not attainable in this Life , 〈◊〉 cites John 15. 2. Every Branch in me that beareth Fruit , he 〈◊〉 it : from whence he argues , If the Father purgeth him , he hath evil Principles to be purged out , p. 73. Rep. What I said to this doth not yet appear to be answerable by him , which was , because it is the Father's purging out Sin or evil Principles ; they must needs be perfectly purged out by Degrees , though it is true , a Man is not perfectly purged while he is a purging : I did not conclude , as he saith , that Freedom from all Sin is instantly , but in God's due time , who is the Purger , and who perfects his own Work : In the same Scripture before cited , Christ saith , Now are you clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you ; abide in me , and I in you , Joh. 15. 3. 4. Without me ( or severed from me ) ye can do nothing , ver . 6. If ye abide in me , and my Words abide in you , ye shall ask what you will , and it shall be done unto you , ver . 7. & 16. From hence observe , here is enough to confute S. S. his concluding , that Evil Principles cannot be wholy purged out in this Life ; for in Christ there is both Power and Sufficiency ; and if his Followers ask in his Name to be throughly purged , it shall be done ; or if they sincerely pray , that the Will of God may be done in Earth , as it is in Heaven , It shall be answered . Now I would ask S. S. if it be not a Duty of true Believers , when they see any thing that is to be removed or purged out , to pray to the Father in Christ's Name to remove it , and throughly to be purged , and their Hearts made clean in this Life ? And shall they not then be answered herein ? Did not Christ say , What soever you ask in my Name , believe that you shall have it , and you shall receive it , or it shall be given you ? And he that abid●…th in Christ sinneth not ; and is not the Branch of the Nature of the Vine ? He answers , We are Partakers of the divine Nature ; and how do we partake thereof , but by escaping the Corruptions of the World ? But as without Christ we can do nothing ; so it is not our Phrase to say , I have made my Heart clean ; for it is he that worketh all our Works in us . His concluding , that no Man hath perfect Knowledge ( viz. either of the Will of God , or of his own Errors ) and that this Ignorance remaineth during Life , from Psal. 19. 12. 1 Cor. 13. 9 , 11. and therefore that there cannot be perfect Practice , p. 74. We have Reason to conclude , he is very imperfect and mistaken herein ; for , 1st , The Will of God with respect to our Duty to him is to be known : It is revealed by his Spirit , that it may be obeyed ; and he that will do the Will shall know the Doctrine . 2dly , Both secret Errors and Faults are discernable , and to be known by the Light , which makes manifest whatsoever Things are reproved ; and therefore secret Faults are not alwayes to remain in this Life , if David and others , when sensible thereof , prayed not in vain , when they prayed to be cleansed from secret Faults ; & that secret Sins & Errors are to be discovered & known , is evident , & that the Lord at his Appearance or Coming , will bring to Light the hidden things of Darkness , and will make manisest the Counsels of the Hearts ; and it is he that reproves the Wicked , & sets man's Sins in order before him ; he that telleth unto Man what his Thought is , the Lord God of Hosts is his Name : Therefore , as he doth perfectly shew Man his Sin , and by Degrees mani●…est his Duty , and afford Light and Power sufficient to forsake Sin , and obey fully ; both are attainable in this ●…ife , though gradually . Still his concludi●…g , that the perfect Man , if on Earth , he sinneth , ●…rom 1 Kings 8. 46. There is no man that sinneth not ; and Ecclesiast . 7. 20. There is not a just Man upon the Earth that doth Good and sinneth not ; I ask him then , If there be no higher Attainment in this Life , then for the best of Men to sin in doing Good , as some of his Brethren interpret those last Words ? But if he will please to read D. Gill's Essay to the Amendment of the last Translation of the Bible , he will find , that he doth not render the Words in the Indicative Mood [ That sinneth not ] but in the Potential [ That may not sin ] as there is no man that may not sin , or but that he may sin ; there is no man just in the Earth that doth Good , and may not sin ; which much differs from positively concluding , that every just man sinneth in doing Good : And he further intimates it to be but in a legal State of Justness , wherein a legal just Man may sin , and not in an Evangelical or Gospel-State in Christ. Neither do the Words as ren●…ered in 1 King. 8. 46. There is no Man that sineth not , agree with the Words before , If they sin against thee ; but rather , there is no Man , but that he may sin , and then it is possible for them not to sin ; and for a good Man that is one in Christ , beyond the State of the Law , to act , and speak , and walk in Christ the true Light , and not to sin in doing Good ; but as of Sincerity , but as of God , in the Sight of God , so speak we in Christ : Such are not sinning in their Preaching and Praying nor do they bring forth wandering Prayers or Dreams , as you do , who are pleading and di●…puting ●…or Sin Term of Life , because it is said , the Imagination of Man's Heart is Evil from his Youth , S. S. saith , This is not spoken of the Old , Wicked 〈◊〉 , b●…t of Noah and his Family , p. 74. If he intend this according to the Tenour of his Discourse , as the State of Noah and his Family , and that all their Life time , I must tell him , that it is contrary to the Testimony given of Noah , viz. That he was a Just Man , and Perfect in his Generations ; and Noah walked with God , which was not with an Evil Heart or evil Imaginations ; for that is not a State of walking with God. His saying , that this is not spoken of the old World , but of Noah , is a Mistake : for God saw that the Wickedness o●… Man was great in the Earth , and that every Imagination of the Thoughts of his Heart was only Evil continually : This is as well mentioned in Gen●…sis 6. 5. as Chap. 8. 21. and relates to Man as in the unrerenerate State , estranged from God , and not to him as walking with God : I must needs conclude this Man a Pleader for Sin ( with many others of his Brethren ) A Pleader for Sin , whilst he thus confounds States and Attainments ; and his Doctrine to be Antichristian and Impious , while he accounts it God's good Pleasure , that the Being of Sin and Corruptions in part must remain in the Saints , to keep them humble ; and that Job abhorreth to entertain such a Thought as that of Perfection , and that to be wholy Free and purged from Evil Principles , is not attainable in this Life ; let the impartial Reader judge , whether there be not in these Doctrines a Pleading for Sin : And while he and his Brethren contend against the Quakers for Evil Principles , they contend to no purpose , while they r●…ckon that neither themselves , nor any else can be purged from Evil Principles in this 〈◊〉 ; but they should not thus dispute and contend for Sin and Imperfection for term of Li●…e , ●…eeing they say , It is the Duty of all to be Perfect , and to press after it ; to watch against all , even the least Sins , pag. 70. and tell men , It is needful to forsake Lying , Injustice , U●…cleaness , &c. which the Light calls them off from , pag. 69. I say , their pleading for Sin Term of Life , is inconsistent with this , and God will require it at their Hands , for their strengthning the Hands of Evil Doers , that they may not forsake their Sins by these Sin-pleasing Doctrines . They cannot be altogether ignorant how apt Transgressors are to lay hold on every Doctrine that is of such a Tendence as suites their Evil Minds , as much of Stephen Scandret his Work doth . Therefore , as it is high time for the Wicked to repent of their Wickedness , so it is time for you pretended Ministers , who are contending for Sin and Imperfection , to repent thereof , and of your Sinful Doctrines , for the Being of Sin and Imperfection Term of Life , whereby you have strengthned many Thousands in Iniquity , made their Bands more strong , and exposed them to Ruin and Destruction . THE ANSWER TO Tho. Hicks , AND HIS BRETHREN , About the RESURRECTION . HIS Absurdity , Confusion and Carnal Conceits about it Discovered . The Resurrection Owned by us , and Scripturally Asserted ; with the Future and Distinct Existences of Men and Angels . And the Eternal Advantage of the Righteous after Dissolution . Joh. 11. 25. Jesus said , I am the Resurrection and the Life , &c. 1 Cor. 15. 38. God giveth a Body at his Pleasure . Ver. 44. There is a Natural Body , and there is a Spiritual Body . 2 Tim. 2. 23. But put away Foolish and Unlearned Questions . Serious Reader , OUr Opposer appearing altogether utterly void of any spiritual Sence or divine Under●…tanding in this great and sublime Mystery of the Resurrection , his Work is the less to be regarded ; and we having very little of so much as seeming Argument●…tion from him , I need say the less to his Work ; only take notice of a few of his Absurd●…ties and Abuses . What further , as is opened in the Discourse following , is chiefly for the sake of others more honest and free from Prejudice , and in order to incline them from gross Conceptions , into a spiritual Apprehension of this Mystery , and th●…t they may be mindful of their present Concernment , of Acceptance with God in his own Life and Righteousness ; and not be diver●…ed from obtaining the End and future Felicity of the Righteous , by Uncertain , Vain and Gross Thoughts and Notions of carnal Minds , which are but depending upon their own Imaginations of a future State , and not upon a divine Principle or spiritual Understanding thereof . God is my Record , that it is a sp●…ritual Eye and divine U●…nderstanding , that I desire may be opened in these weighty Matters treated on ; for which End in the S●…ght o●… God , I am open and free in my Spirit in what I write on this Occasion ; which I desire to i●…prove only for the Glory of God and Good of Souls . THE ANSWER To Tho. Hicks about the RESURRECTION , &c. First , T. H. accuses us from what one Tarner should say ; but answers not what he said , or his Argument . 2dly , He accuseth us in general words , with manifest Denial of the Resurrection of the Body . For which his Instance is our saying , That Flesh and Blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Observe hence , That 't is no marvel that he reviles and slanders us , and thinks we have some reserved Meaning , like the Jesuitical Equivocation ; * p. 56. when he hath accused us for making use of the Apostles plain words , which he hath not answered : Would it be well taken if he should positively say , That the Apostle denyed the Resurrection , when he saith , Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , 1 Cor. 15. 50. It s one thing to deny Men's carnal gross Thoughts about the Seed , Resurrection and Body : And it is another thing wholely to deny the Resurrection of the Body in those general Expressions . 3dly , He pretends to desire Information what the Body is we believe shall arise again ; when before he hath positively accused us with manifest Denyal of the Resurrection of the Body , that is , of any Body , if he meant as his words import . And here again he is obtruding upon us that Fool 's Question , which the Apostle reproved , when in answer thereto he said , Thou Fool , that which thou sowest is not quickened except it dye : And thou sowest not that Body which shall be ; but God gives it a Body as it pleaseth him , 1 Cor. 15. 35 , 36 , 37 , 38. For which again he queries , Whether we do not tacitely deny the Resurrection of the Body ? For all this man's Pretence of Scripture being his Rule , he is not content with the Scripture-Language , nor yet willing to resign up himself to the Pleasure of God , in giving to every Seed it s own Body , as it pleaseth him . But such busie Intruders will be inquisitive concerning the manner of God's executing his Pleasure in this thing : Whereas men's present Concern should be rather to wait to know , and submit to the good Pleasure of God in this Life ; and to find a part in Christ Jesus , who is the Resurrection and the Life , that they might be assured of the good Effect and Fruits of God's good Pleasure hereafter . For it is a Design of Satan to busie and puzzle men's Thoughts about their Existences in Heaven , while he keeps them in Sin and Darkness , in the Way to Hell : Whereas if they would faithfully serve God in the Way of his Grace here on Earth , they would freely trust him with the Manner how he will Glorifie them hereafter . And my saying , We ought not to be Curious in these Matters , to inquire into God's secret Pleasure in things beyond our Capacity ; neither do I desire to make my self wiser then I am ; nor to appear wise above ( or besides ) what is written ( viz. in this Case . ) Doth this argue that the Divine Light within is not the Rule above the Scriptures ? as is implyed in his 57th page ; when I confess it to be that , that gives the true Understanding of them ; and to be wise according to what is written , And not to pretend the Scriptures for Proof of what they prove not . As for Instance ; When I am called to answer an Unscriptural Question , by such as profess Scripture to be their Rule ; I think it most meet to answer them in the Scripture-Language , which while they are not satisfied with , they inquire but to Cavil , and for Advantage , as my Opposer and some others of his Abettors did . As for a more particular Instance , when they query about the Resurrection of the Body ; as desiring I would inform them , what Body that is , that shall arise again ? which being the same with that which the Apostle reproves for , 1 Cor. 15. 35. it deserves the same Reproof for Answer , vers . 36 , 37. Again , Though I really confess the Universal Resurrection of the Body of Mankind , or of the whole Adam ; which implieth , First , A general Fall and Death ; and that they shall come forth , some to the Resurrection of Life , and others to the Resurrection of Damnation ; yet for the very Phrase , namely , The Resurrection of the Body of Flesh , &c. I find not in Scripture ; But the Resurrection of the D●…ad , the raising and arising of the Dead , &c. 2dly , Upon my Answer in the Apostle's very words , 1 Cor. 15. 35. the feigned Christian saith , This Answer Whitehead said , is sufficient for such busie intruding Fools , p. 57. By which he hath contradicted what he saith , before Whitehead answered in p. 54. But then he adds , The Apostle calls Fools , not they that believed ; but they that deny the Resurrection of the Body , Persons of the same Perswasion with the Quakers in this Point , p. 57. That the Corinthians did positively deny the Resurrection , he hath not proved ; But that some questioned like him , How , and with what Body are the ●…ead raised ? &c. whose Folly the Apostle reproved : And this is not Quakers Perswasion thus to question , much less to deny the Resurrection in the true Sense and real Mystery of it ; For so to question , With what Body are the Dead raised ? is not a Question necessary to Salvation , nor essential to the being of a Christian , who knows a part in Christ , who is the Resurrection and the Life . Now come we to examine T. H's Meaning upon the Text , 1 Cor. 15. 37 , 38. wherein he proceeds thus , Concerning this Mortal , viz. That the Body given it , is the same for Substance , the same that was sown , &c. only called a Body given to it , because it is so changed from its Accidents of Corruption and Mortality . Thus far T. H. What reasonable man can make Sense of this piece of Oratory , as to say that the Body given to it , is the same for Substance : Like as if he had said , This same mortal Body is the same It which is given it , or it is the same It that is sown , that is given it self ; or the same Body for Substance is given to the mortal Body . What rare Rhetorick is this ? And so his Brother Kiffin saith , That the Seed that 's sown , is the same Body of Flesh , &c. which shall arise , though otherwise qualified : If so , what is that Body that God giveth to it , as it pleaseth him ? For if it be lookt upon in the Nature of a Seed , it must be supposed that it is another Body , that 's given unto it , as is to every Seed sown , according to its kind : For it is plain Non-sence to say , That that which is sown , is the same Body that is given to it . Besides , that which is not quickened except it dyes ( which may be spoken of every kind of Seed , that hath Life in it first ) doth not dye be●…ore it is sown , but after 't is sown ; as Christ saith , Except a Grain of Wheat fall into the Ground and dye , it abideth alone ; but if it dye , it bringeth forth much Fruit : Now the Fruit or Ear brought forth , is the proper Body given to it , which is not the very same which wa●… sown in the Earth . But I pray , how holds this dying aftersown , with these men's fleshly Opinion of the carnal Body in the Grave being the Seed ? for that being Dead before , doth not dye after 't is buried ; neither do these men intend to be buried alive . And seeing every Seed hath its own proper Body , what Body can be proper to the Terrestrial Bodies ? which if every one of them must be lookt upon as the Seed , to have each a proper Body given , what a plurality of Bodies must there be besides what are ? And will it not amount to this , That every man shall not only have these very Terrestrial Bodies , but each a Body besides ; and so every man two Bodies , and those of the same Substance that these are now , to wit , Terrestrial or Carnal ? He cites Phil. 3. 21. thus , He shall change our vile Bodies . Herein he mis-cites and perverts the Phrase ; For 't is not Bodies in the plural , but Body in the singular : And 't is to be read thus from the Greek , He shall change the Body of our Lowness , that it may be fashioned or trans-figured like unto his Glorious Body . But doth not this evidently make against him ; considering that Christ's Glorious Body is not a Carnal , Terrestrial or Earthly Body , but a Spiritual , Transcendent , Glorious Body ? And the changing of our Low Body , in fashion to be like his , implieth not the same Terrestial or Carnal Bodies , or to be of this Fashion and Substance , as now they are ; For Celestial , Spiritual and Glorious Bodies are much different from Terrestrial , Carnal and Mean Corruptible Bodies . Again , T. H. addeth from Phil 3. 21. This cannot be meant of a new created Body ; because such a Body cannot be said to be either vile or changed . If then this IT be not the Body which dyed , but another , how can that be called a Resurrection ; for that supposeth the same ? If another , then it is more properly a Creation of a new Body , then the Resurrection of the Body , p. 58. Repl. Mark here . 1. He is for a Resurrection of the very same T●…rrestrial Bodies of all men , but no new Creation ; for that opposeth his Thoughts of the Resurrection . 2. What a strange Inconsistency is it , that the self-same Earthly or Carnal Bodies of all should arise again after they are turned to Dust without any new Creation , and yet rise compleat , the same they were sor Substance ? What Sense or Congruity can be made of this ? Many Thousands being dissolved , and turned to as real Dust of the Earth , as man was at first formed of , how should Living and Compleat Bodies be raised out of that Dust , without Creating anew first ? But if it cannot be a new created Body , it is not the same Natural , Carnal or Terrestrial Body for Substance after dissolved : It is not this very same corruptible Flesh , Blood and Bones , that is given to every Seed as it pleaseth God , or that shall inherit God's Kingdom . Howbeit , As to be Quickened , implieth a Death first ; and Resurrection , a Fall before ; and to be Changed , that there was either a vile , corruptible Suffering , or low Estate before : So all that come to know Christ in them , and the Body dead because of Sin , know the Spirit to be Life because of Righteousness : And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the Dead dwell in you , he that raised up Jesus from the Dead shall also quicken your mortal Bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you , Rom. 8. 10 , 11 , 12 , 13. And this plainly is a quickening unto Righteousness , by the Spirit dwelling within , which is far from being a Proof of T. H's Opinion , though cited by him . And as in the first Adam is both the Fall and Death come over all men ; so in the second Adam , who is the Resurrection and the Life , all are made alive , and that unto Righteousness , who first come to see the Body dead because of Sin , and the Deeds of the Body mortified , Rom. 8. 13. or who come to know Christ , and the Power of his Resurrection , and the Fellowship of his Sufferings , being made conformable unto his Death , these attain unto the Resurrection of the Dead , Phil. 3. 10 , 11. Such do not strive for a Notion thereof , but to attain to it . As to the manner of Existences or Beings of all men in the World to come , there is no Necessity for any to be taking thought or busying their Minds about them ; it being in the Pleasure and Wisdom of God , to reserve all to their due and deserved Ends in an immortal Capacity . Our present Concernment is , so to know and esteem of Christ , as that we may be found in him , not only mortified to the Corruptions of this World , through the Fellowship of his Suffering and Conformity unto his Death ; But also interessed in that blessed Resurrection , which is only attained to in Christ , who is the Resurrection and the Life ; that he may be magnified in our Body , whether by Life or Death . To what he saith in his 59. pag. about the B●…dy that was dead ; about that It which is raised ; about the So●…l and the Seed of God ; the Matter is answered else where ; yet , First , All that know the Body dead because of Sin , having mortified the Deeds of the Flesh and being conformable to the Death of Christ , as dead with him , shall alfo be quickned and raised up by his Spirit that dwells in them , which is Life , because of Righteousness ; and such only can speak experimentally of the Seed of God , and the Soul. 2dly , That there is a Seed of God , and a Seed of the Serpent in Mankind , according to G. F. Junior's relation , he further tells you , that they that discern the Body of each Seed , are not the Fools which are questioning , how the dead should be raised and with what Body ; for they know that all Mankind will be found in one of these two Seeds . By which it is plain , he doth not exclude men from a future Being or Immortality , nor confound them with the very Being of God ; though it is by his invisible Power , that all are upheld in their respective Existences , in Immortality , whether they be found in the Nature and Image of the good Seed , or of the evil . T. H. And since he calls them Fools , that is , the Apostles and all true Christians that say , This Body of Flesh and Bones shall arise , pag. 59. Rep. He should have produced his plain Scripture for the Apostles so saying : where are these Words to be found in all the Scriptures of the new Testament , that this Body of Flesh and Bones shall arise again ? Doth not the Apostle say the contrary , Thou sowest not that Body that shall be ? And Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God ? But must we then suppose , as some Professors do , That these Bodies of Flesh and Bones , shall inherit the Kingdom of God , without any Blood in them ? Or , that after they are returned to Dust , they shall arise again the self same as they are , without any new Creation ? I confess , this is such kind of new Philosophy as I have not read of before . The man has run himself into such strange Confusion ; and wholy misses the Sense of the Resurrection and the Life ; and over looks the true Seed and Root of the Matter , while in his vain mind he is imagining , muddling and Devil-like disputing about the Body , which in Comparison of the immortal Existence and being of Man , is but an outside Case , earthly Shell or Husk that disolveth . Again he saith , If this Seed of the Serpent be only Sin , and the Seed of Christ only Grace , it is only Sin and Grace which shall arise again , p. 60. Oh the gross Darkness and Ignorance of this Man ! He knows not the Seed of the Serpent , from whence Sin springs ; nor the Seed of God , from whence Grace and Life flows : But falsly supposes , that our Principle extinguishes the future distinct beings of Men , though it hath been plainly told him , that all Mankind will be found in one of these two Seeds . As also we testifie , from that Sence of Life and Immortality , that is brought to Light in us through the Gospel , That the Soul , whole spiritual Man , and spiritual Body , shall exist in Immortality ; yea , though our outward Man perish , yet the inward Man is renewed day by day , and in order to possess an eternal Weight of Glory , 2 Cor. 4. This inward Man is neither extinguish'd by the perishing of the outward Man ; nor thereby deprived of that Advantage , which is an eternal Weight of Glory : And that God giveth it a Body as it pleaseth him , and to every Seed his own Body , or his proper Body . The Man would know what this It is , shewing his Dubiousness of his own Assertion before , viz. " That it is a mortal Body of Flesh and Bones ( whether it shall be raised and go to Heaven with any Blood in it , he tells us not ) and that the Body given it is the same for Substance ; that is as good Sense as to say , the Body of Flesh and Bones shall ( when it is raised ) have the same Body of Flesh and Bones given to it ; whereas it is to every Seed his proper Body , which is comprehensive both of the Seed of the Righteous , and the Seed of the Wicked ; of the Seed of God , and the Seed of the Serpent : and so comprehends and takes in the whole Body of Mankind under those two Relations and Natures ; not to dissolve or extinguish their Rational , Intelligible Beings , with the perishing and dissolvable Earthly Outside or Case , but that all shall be reserved for their due and proper Ends , according to the Seed , Nature and Image , which their Soul carries with it when it parts with the Earthly Cloathing . And whereas it is said , that It is sown a Natural Body , it is raised a Spiritual Body ; the great Stress is laid on the particle [ IT ] which may as well be applyed to Wheat or other Grain ; It is sown , and It is raised , when the Body , or outside of that very Corn that is sown is dead , though the innate Virtue or Life , doth not in it self dye , nor fruitlesly expire : Thou sowest not that Body that shall be , &c. yet in these two relations , It , is used as relative both to that which is sown , and to that Body that shall be , while in the very next Words to those before cited , it is said , there is a Natural Body , and there is a Spiritual Body , 1 Cor. 15. 44. and these can no more be the self-same , then Celestial and Terrestrial Bodies can ; or then the first Adam and the laft Adam , or the Earthly and the Heavenly , which the Apostle plaiuly distinguisheth between , as he doth betwixt the Natural and the Spiritual . But whereas T. H. and his Brethren so much argue from the word It [ as , It is sown a Natural Body , It is raised a Spiritual ] they take this It for Idem corpus , the self-same Body in both : Their Mistake is evident ; they have not this either from the Greek or Latin : see 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , seminatur corpus animale , surgit corpus spirituale , i. e. a Natural ( or Animal ) Body is sown , a Spiritual Body riseth ; it is not Idem surgit : Nor would this agree with the next Words , There is a Natural Body , and there is a Spiritual Body . This admits of no such Transubstantiation , as that the self-same Natural Body should become Spiritual , or be the Subject of such an Accident . And it is sown 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an Animal Body ; or as having Life , a Living Body , which therefore cannot be the Body as dead , and laid in the Graves ; for in that Condition they are not Corpus Animale ; for that relates to the Earthly Adam , or Body of Mankind , as having a natural Life : ●…nd must not even the Animal or Natural Man dye before the Spiritual Man be risen , or Immortality in Christ be put on ? And is not the Natural ( or Animal ) Man doposed to the Renewed Man ? 1 Cor. 2. 14. And the Seed which is sown in Weakness must needs have some Degree of Life in it , when sown ( whether Natural or Spiritual ) and the Weakness and Corruption doth relate to the Subject in which it is sown , if the Seed it self be incorruptible . And as the First Man is of the Earth , Earthly , the second Man is the Lord from Heaven ; and As is the Earthly , Such are they also that are Earthly ; and As is the Heavenly , Such are they that are Heavenly , ver . 47 , 48. which if this be owned , it must be granted , that they that are Heavenly must have Bodies sutable , viz. Heavenly or Spiritual Bodies ; this Heavenly being the second Man , the Lord from Heaven , ver . 47. And mark , As is the Heavenly , Such are they that are Heavenly ; which cannot be the same with Earthly any more then the Image of the Heavenly can be the Image of the Earthly . And as to our being asked , what this Mortal is that must put on Immortality ? Though Mortal in this place implies a dying Condition of Man ( as the Effect of Sin ) as in Adam all dye ; yet it cannot ( as having put on Immortality ) be relative to Flesh and Blood , but as admitted in a Heavenly and Spiritual Sense ; for the Apostle plainly tells us but a little before , Now this I say , Brethren , that Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God ; neither doth Corruption inherit Incorruption : Behold , I shew you a Mystery ! We shall not all Sleep , but we shall all be Changed , ver . 50 , 51. And so by that Life and Immortality which is brought to Light , we see beyond Death and Mortality ; and we ( though as in a dying State , yet ) behold Immortality , being quickned by the second Adam , and renewed again into the Image of the Heavenly ; being made alive in Christ , who redeems Man from Death , & ransoms the Soul from the Power of the Grave ; who swallows up Mortality and Death in Life and Victory , and saith , O Death , I will be thy Plagues ; O Grave , I will be thy Destruction , Hos. 13 , 14. Isa. 25. 8. by whom also Death being so swallow'd up into Victory , & the Sting of it , which is Sin , taken away : They who thus have their part in Christ , who is the Resurrection and Life , can truly say , Thanks be to God , who gives us the Victory through our Lord Jesus Christ , 1 Cor. 15. ●…7 . And to take off further Surmisings against us , I tell my Opposer , that this Resurrection , or Change , extends not only to a Raising of Man up from Sin to Righteousness , but also to an Eternal Glory : And 't is not only the Raising up of the Seed or Grace in Man , as he supposes ; but the Raising up of Man from Sin , Death , Hell and the Grave , even in the Seed and Life , which is the Ransom ; and this answers his Cavils in his 6●… . and 61. Pages , only where he fictitiously makes us speak thus , viz. Qu. We believe the Resurrection of the Body , though we know not what that Body is which shall rise : And then he absurdly makes a Christian to answer thus , viz. Chr. Thou saidst before , the Light within was the divine Essence : either then thy Light within thee is not God , or God knows not all things , &c. Reply , First he feigneth the Quacker , though we will never own him to be our Mouth ; for the Words were not so spoken by me , or us ; but that we ought not to be too Curious or Inquisitive in things beyond our Capacities , as to the Manner of the Existences hereafter ; or how Men shall be reserved unto their several Ends and Rewards ; for God knows how to do it : but we being sensible of the different Seeds , we cannot be altogether ignorant of the Nature of each Body being proper to the Seed it belongs to : Yet , if with John , we say , it doth not yet appear what we shall be ; it is Satisfaction that we know what Manner of Love the Father hath bestowed upon us , that we should be called the Sons of God ; for such are Sons of the Resurrection . 2dly , T. H. abuses the Christian by making him speak absurdly that which implies , that if Man have a Divine Light in him , he must needs know all that the Light knows , or else either conclude , that the Light is not Divine , or else God is not Omniscient ; and then it follows from hence , that none have either a Divine Light , or God dwelling in them , unless they know as much as God ( which was a Temptation to Man at first ) and by this he hath shut out all , not only the fallen World , but God's People also from having any Divine Light or Power of God in them . He scoffs at some of our Friends , saying , We own the Resurrection ; that is , We witness it : and then adds , But what is it you witness ? the Resurrection of the Seed ? 'T is Christ in you . Ans. Is this a matter to be taunted or scoffed at ? Hath he truly acted the part of a Christian thus to slight the Arising of the Righteous Seed in any ; or Christ's Arising , who doth appear , reveal himself , and arise in the Souls that believe in him , to raise them also up with him ; yea , and that which the Father hath given him he will loose nothing o●… it , but raise it up at the last Day ? And if you do not come to know a Righteous Seed raised up in you , and Truth to spring up out of the Earth and to witness Christ to be your Resurrection and Life , you remain dead in your Sins , and short of the Glory of this Resurrection . But in witnessing Christ to be the Resurrection and the Life unto us , we do not assert that it is only the Seed or Christ in us that doth arise , as is vainly imagined ; but we are revived , and do arise in and with him , as those that have believed in his Name , as he said , I am the Resurrection and the Life , he that believeth in me , though he were dead yet shall he live ; and he that liveth and believeth in me , shall never dye : wherein he doth not take notice of the putting off of the earthly Body or Cloathing , as his dying , or Death . And , as in Adam all dye , even so in Christ shall all be made alive ; but every man in his own order , Christ the first Fruits , afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming : and this is not to exempt Man from the Benefit of the Resurrection ; nor to say , That Christ and the Light within is sown Natural , Mortal and Corruptible , as T. H. most malitiously and falsly accuseth us by way of Question , as asserting Blasphemy : To which he farther adds , that we intend the Resurrection of something past , and witness in our selves : What is Falsehood and Deceipt , if this be not ? p. 61. And further saith , Thus do you undermine the very Foundation of Faith , Hope and Holiness of Life , like Hymneas and Philotus , 2 Tim. 2. 17. who said the Resurrection is past already . To which I answer , first , What we witness in ourselves of the Resurrection , it is this Man 's horrible Blasphemy , to call it Falsehood and Deceipt , for that we do witness to Christ as being the Resurrection and the Life revealed in us , so far as we have a living Knowledge of him , and Experience of being by him raised up from Sin and Death that came by it , in order to attain to a future Glory . 2dly , 'T is a Gross Slander , that we either intend or say , like Hymneas and Philotus , that the Resurrection is past already ; for that it is not yet ( as to Man ) compleatly ; we are not yet raised to what we shall be , as namely to that Fulness of Glory and absolute Joy and Tryumph , which shall be incessantly possest after our Labours and Sufferings are ended , and our Earthly House dissolved ; for the more we are drawn up into absolute Spirituality , the more capable we are of that full Fruition of an eternal Weight of Glory in the Heavens ; in order to which let us be Spiritually minded , and walk in Holiness of Life while here in our earthly House . As also we cannot hold that the Resurrection is past already , while we , or any of us , are suffering with Christ , and travailing in order to attain unto the Resurrection of the Dead , that is , perfectly to be raised up with Christ ; who is the Resurrection and Life ( in some Degree at least ) of all that truly believe in his Name and Power : Neither is this to undermine the Foundation of true Faith , Hope or Holiness of Life , while we confess Christ to be that Foundation . But to argue for Sin and Imperfection term of Life , and so to put off being Perfect till in Heaven , as this Opposer hath done , this is repugnant to the Foundation of living and purifying Faith and Hope ; and so excludes Holiness of Life : howbeit he thinks to arrive at Heaven with the same Carnal Carcass or Corruptible Cask he now beats about with him ; only he thinks , it will be new drest up and polisht after it is turned to Dust : But the greatest Miracle is , that it must not be Created a new , nor a new Created Body ; and unless we grant him this , he reckons our Religion a meer Cheat , calculated only to the Service of the Devil and our own Lusts , and that it denies any Eternal Advantage ; and therefore be opposeth the Christian to the Quaker , p. 62. And what is the Marrow of his Matter for this severe Conclusion upon us ? But , First , he accuseth us of a palpable Denyal of all future and distinct Beings and Existences after Death , pag. 62. which is a palpable and notorious Untruth : for as we confess to the distinct Beings of Angels in Heaven ; so we confess the future distinct Beings and Existences of the Saints and Children of the Resurrection , that in the World to come they shall be AS the Angels of God ; yea , They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that World and the Resurrection , &c. They shall be equal unto the Angels , and are the Children of God , being the Children of the Resurrection , Luk. 20. 36. And what Bodies have these Angels of God ? Terrestrial , or Celestial ; Carnal , or Spiritual ? let that be considered . 2dly , The Man 's other Pretence is , If the Soul be a Part of God , Divine , Infinite ( as before ) and returns into God , being God it cannot miscarry , he saith . His Abuse concerning this hath been answer'd before , both in this Treatise , and in my Book of the Nature of Christianity . And it was never asserted by us either of the Soul of Man , or of the Spirit or Existence of Man , or the Creature which may vary in its Affections to Good or Evil , according to the Power that acts Man : Neither can it be conceived in Reason ( but Envie ) that any of us should look upon the Infinite God , to be Divisible into so many Parts or Particles as there are Entities or Existences of Men ; yet that there is an Infinite Life , Principle or Seed in the Soul of every Man , This we confess , as that by which the Soul immortally subsists in its being ; and therefore this may be counted the Soul , or Life of the Soul ; for without this the Soul of man could not subsist in an Immortal Capacity . And this I and divers others can testifie , that G. F. did not intend or asscribe either Immutability , Infiniteness or Divinity to the meer formed or created Spirit , Soul or Being of Man , but to the divine , immediate Inspiration or Breath of Life , flowing from God himself , who inspired into him an active Soul , and breathed in a living Spirit , Wisd. 15. 11. whereby Man became both a living and reasonable Soul , indued with Rational , Intellectual and Spiritual Parts . 3dly , I know no other Reason he can pretend for his Charge against us and our Religion , as a Cheat , and as denying an eternal Advantage , but that we do not own his gross and carnal Sense of the Resurrection , though it be none of our Phrase , to say in these general words , That the Body perisheth forever ; but hereby he plainly implies man's Incapacity of an eternal Advantage , unless his Carnal or Terrestrial Body that now is , partake thereof ; and how shall it partake thereof after it is dissolved and turned to Dust ? He tells us , It cannot be a new Created Body , but a Resurrection ; Of what ? he would have it of the self-same Body for Substance : But if there must be no new Creation , but a Resurrection of these Carnal Bodies , opposed to Creation , it must only be a raising of the Dust of these Bodies ; and then what a sad Garment would this invest the Souls of the Righteous with ? But if on second Thoughts , he will admit of any new Creation of Bodies out of the Dust , this cannot imply , that they shall be the very self same that now they are in Matter and Form. But if any of them shall yet say , They shall be specifically the same Bodies , That varies from their Principle of being the self-same that now they are . What is now become of this Man's Religion ? and whereon do his Expectations of a future Advantage depend , but upon his Ignorant and Carnal Conceptions , and not upon any living Sence of Christ , or any spiritual or divine Understanding of the Mystery of the Resurrection , whose Work is gross Body , and not Spirit ? He reckons our Religion and Suffering to be for a Carnal Interest , while his empty Faith and Profession is for the same to be sure , being so much for the Promotion of his Carnal Body in eternal Glory , which 't is not capable of ; nor he in the Way to it . Such is the course of some carnal Cavillers , who while contending about Bodies , and musing how they shall exist in Heaven , they are now neglecting the Way thither , more busying themselves about their carnal Bodies , then regarding their poor Souls ; or minding the Spirit of Holiness , thereby to become Sons of God , and of the Resurrection ; or to be converted from Sin and Pollution to Holiness ; or turned from Satan's Power to God , which is the Way to Glory . And now in short to answer what we and our Religion are charged within the Conclusion of our Adversary's bitter reviling Dialogue : First , We testifie that the Resurrection is not past . 2dly , That the Soul of Man is not God , nor Christ ; but God is the Saviour of it ; and so we ( alwayes since we knew our own Souls ) have distinguished between the Soul and the Saviour of it . 3dly , That we confess future and distinct Beings after Death , as well of Men as of Angels ; and that the Children of God and of the Resurrection shall in the World to come be as the Angels , yea , equal to them . 4thly , Though it be said , Thou sowest not that Body that shall be ; and Flesh and Blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God , 1 Cor. 15. It doth not therefore follow , that our Religion denies any eternal Advantage that is to be reaped ; much less that it is a Cheat , or Calculated to the Service of the Devil , as most wickedly and malitiously T. H. hath reviled and blasphemed that Religion and Testimony which we know , is given us of God ; for we have not by distinguishing between the Natural and Spiritual Bodies , denyed the Saints , their proper Existences , Spiritual Body , or House eternal in the Heavens , when the Earthly Tabernacle is dissolved : and unless the Man holds the Mortality of the Soul , that it dyes with the Body , or the extinguishing of the spiritual Being of Man , I do not see how he can suppose a denying of any eternal Advantage on our parts ; unless he place it all upon the Earthly Body . It is true that some of his Brethren do hold , that the Soul dyes with the Body , and sleeps in the Dust , till both be raised ; and this also depriveth all the Saints deceased from having any eternal Advantage , in the mean time at least : But we are not of that Faith , Hope or Religion that will expire or perish with the Carnal Body , as our Opposers will , who in his fruitless , carnal Work and Discourse consists more of and for gross Body , then Spirit ; he is too carnal & gross in his Apprehensions , to discern so much as a Vision of the future Beings and State of Saints : But both they that think they shall reap no Eternal Advantage without their Terrestrial Bodies of Flesh and Blood , as T. H. pag. 75. And they who hold the Mortality of the Soul , are not of the Apostle's mind and Spirit , who said , We know , that if our earthly House of this Tabernacle were dissolved , we have a Building of God , an House not made with Hands , eternal in the Heavens , 2 Cor. 5. 1. We are confident , I say , and willing rather to be absent from the Body , and to be present with the Lord , ver . 8. For to me to live is Christ , and to dye 〈◊〉 Gain ; but if I live in the Flesh this is the Fruit of my Labour : Yet what I shall Chuse I wote not ; for I am in a straight betwixt two , having a Desire to depart and to be with Christ , which is far better , Phil. 1. 21 , 22 , 23. Mark here , First , he expected a far better and more excellent House then the Earthly House after Dissolution . 2dly , If to dye was Gain to him , and to depart from the Flesh , desirable ; and so out of it , to be with Christ , far better , he did not place his Felicity upon the Flesh or carnal Body , as T. H. doth : neither did the Apostle so indeavour to magnifie that fleshly outside Cloathing , which is perishing and dissolvable ; but his earnest Expectation and Hope was on the behalf of Christ , and his future Gain in him , saying , Christ shall be magnified in my Body , whether by Life or by Death , Phil. 1 , 20. But T. H. his carnal Contest is for magnifying his earthly , carnal Body , and not for magnifying Christ therein ; for he scornfully slights our witnessing Christ ( and his being risen ) in us ; though it is evident the Apostle did not place his eternal Felicity and Advantage upon the Earthly House , Flesh or carnal Body that perishes and turns to Dust ; for if he set his Heart upon Man , if he gather unto himself his Spirit & his Breath , all Flesh shall perish together , and Man shall turn again unto Dust , Job . 34. 14 , 15. But T. H. sees no Eternal Advantage to be reapt by Persons after Death , unless they confess the Resurrection of the very self-same Flesh , Blood and Bones that dyes , corrupts and turns to Dust ( If he intends any Blood in it ) he will admit of no new Creation of it ; and by this , his Religion and Hope do expire and perish with his corrupt Body , and must only be renewed when the Dust of that Body shall be raised without Creating it a new Body : And if there be no eternal Advantage without this kind of Resurrection , as described by him , this doth either wholly deny the Original and Spiritual Being of Man , and comprehends the whole Man , only as consisting of a mortal and perishing Body ; or else admits not of the reasonable Soul really to injoy her self in any condition out of the outside perishing Vesture or decay'd Cloathing , which for Man to be divested of , can be no more Loss to him , as to his immortal Being , then 't is to the Wheat to dye & bring forth much Fruit , unto which [ Resurrection ] is applicable as well as to Man , though not to the Sameness of Body : And as it cannot unman a Man to put off his Old Cloathing , that he may put on New ; no more can it annihilate our Spiritual Existences to have the Earthly Cloathing put off and dissolved , but be to our far greater Advantage & Glory , to be invested with that Spiritual Transcendent Cloathing , & most Excellent House Eternal in the Heavens ; which State they only attain to , who become Sons of God and of the Resurrection , and desire Christ may be magnified in their Bodies here . And furthermore from that Belief and Discovery I have received in the true Light , of the Resurrection and future Rewards , according to the holy Scripture ; I desire it may be minded , that God commandeth all Men every where ( in their Day and Time ) to Repent , because he hath appointed a Day in the which he will judge the World in Righteousness , by that Man whom he hath ordained : So that there will be a Day of Judgment , Wrath and Perdition of the Ungodly ; unto which Day the Lord Knoweth how to Reserve the Unjust to be punished ; and this will be a Terrible Day to all that make Lyes their Refuge , and reject the universal Call of God to Repentance : And seeing that in the Great Day of the Lord a final Dissolution may be expected of all those things that are perishing and dissolvable , even of the Heavens and the Earth , and that they shall be changed , what manner of Persons ought we to be here in all Holy Conversation and Godliness ? After T. H. hath vented his Blasphemous Out-rage against our Religion , as before in his Catechism , he impudently abuseth and bespattereth our Sufferings , p. 75. where he thus questioneth , viz. Tell me what it is that doth influence and prevail with you to Do and Suffer as you do ? And then he makes us thus to answer , viz. Answ. What doest thou think it should be ? And then he thus proceeds . Quest. May not the Satisfaction of your Wills and Lusts , the Promoting your Carnal Interests , be your chief Motive and Inducement ? And then he makes the Answer thus . Answ. We deny the Flesh and the Lusts : This is thy own Dark Imagination : And then he proceeds again . Quest. May not you live in and fulfil the Lusts of the Flesh whilst you deny it in Words , since your Opinion denies any eternal Advantage to be reaped by Persons after Death in denying the Resurrection of this Body ? Must you not then have respect to something to be injoyed here as your Incouragement ? p. 75. Rep. The Malice , Falsehood and Absurdity of these Forgeries against the real Intent and End of our Sufferings , Thousands may testifie against ; and all Impartial Readers that know us , and have beheld our deep Sufferings , may perceive the Man's Envy : Considering the great Number of our Friends that have dyed in Prisons , and the many hundreds that have been ruined and spoiled in their Estates and Callings , could these be either consistent with Lusts or carnal Interest ? and the many that have been banished , and many Families undone ; besides the many that have been knocked down , Bruised and Beaten in the streets , and their Lives often hazarded and resigned up for Meeting in the Fear of God ; Could these things be endured for a Carnal Interest ? No , No ; but meerly upon a Religious and Conscientious Account ( wherein we have eyed the Glory of God , and our own Peace andfturue Happiness : If we did not own any Resurrection , eternal Advantage , or Existences hereafter , what should we suffer for ? we were of all men most miserable : If we were of that Atheistical Opinion , instead of chusing our Great Sufferings , we should have chosen this , viz. Let us Eat & Drink , for tomorrow we dye , 1 Cor. 15. 19 , 32. It may be easily judged whether we are justly reflected upon or no , as being influenced either to satisfie our Wills , or promote carnal Interest , or to fulfil the Lusts of the Flesh , or obtain any temporal Injoyment here by our Losses & Sufferings : These gross , abusive Slanders are so apparent that he that runs may read them , being also manifestly detected by our apparently often resigning up our Estates , Liberties and Lives ; also in Times of deep Suffering , when we could see no publick Appearance of such , as T. H. and many of his Brethren , before the face of Persecution ; but then they could sculke & creep into Corners , and Obscure themselves , and leave all the Burden upon u●… , there being but a few Baptists that did suffer in the late Tryal sor their Religion or Consciences : Though to give them their due , a few of them have suffered Imprisonment , some whereof have received the Benefit of our Labours among our Friends , in a late General Discharge ; but the most cowardly and base-spirited among them are now most Quarrelsom against us ; and why ? They have lost Ground by their Carnal Policy in Obscuring themselves in Stormy Times , which they are never like to regain , but still to loo●…e more by Fretting and Struggling against us ; and therefore T. H. is offended that our Number should now augment , though that he cannot hinder ; for the Hand of the Lord is in it : And many having seen the Coldness of Baptists Zeal , Night-Dipping , and their Timorous Creeping and Securing themselves in Suffering Times as also the Emptiness and Dryness of their Religion ; Divers are aweary thereof : And when they come among us to receive the Sence of God's Power , then divers of the Baptist-Teachers do fret and are Angry , eagerly besetting the Parties : And in that God hath made our Sufferings effectual for his Name & Truth sake , for the drawing many after it , T. H. endeavours ( in the Malice of Sathan ) to debase and render our Sufferings Odious , saying : He believes our Carnal Advantage is one grea●… Thing in our Eye ; And then he adds , Quest. Though you may sustain some outward Losses ; yet whether you have not a Way to augment your Outward Gain by Loosing ? pag. 75. Reply , He now questioneth that which before he saith , he believeth , as namely , That Carnal Advantage is one great Thing in our Eye . One Great Thing implyeth some thing else ; but What else , he leaves no place for in what he hath concluded before , to wit , That we have regard only to something to be injoyed 〈◊〉 ; afterward he falsly rekons Carnal Advantages to be One great Thing in our Eye , and then questions the Matter surmised and before believed by him ; as , Whether we have not a Way to augment our outward Gain by Loosing ? and thus bewrayes his own Guilt , Falsehood , and Wickedness in his Traducing a People or whole Body of us , and Reproaching our Conscientious Sufferings , though it is known that Carnal Interest and Advantage is a great thing in the eye of divers Baptist-Preachers , while they augment their Gain , Stipends and Pluralities by preaching in several Places in times of Liberty ; which Liberty their occult Creeping in times of Tryal hath not procured , but added to our Sufferings : Coertion was effectual and sruitful upon such timorous Dippers or Baptists , and not at all shewn to be fruitless by the Valour of these Opposers and Quarrelers , who now further to increase our Sufferings , reproach them as Irreligious , and only for self-intrest ; and Us , as neither Christians nor Conscientious ; and such is the Reward we have from cowardly , base & envious Spirits , who have strengthened the Hand of Persecution , and aggravated our Sufferings by their own Unchristian and Ignoble Policy , and Subterfuges for self-Security . But T. H. might have very well allowed us Conscience and Religion for our many deep Sufferings ( especially while he and his Brethren partake of the Fruits and Benefit thereof ) wherein we have resigned up all our Worldly Interests , outward Concernments , and our Lives also ) although he had judged our Conscience erronous : But what is the Tendence of all his imbittered Traducing and Reproaching our Sufferings ; as , one while Wills , Lusts and carnal Intrests being the chief Inducement thereto ; another while , Respect only to some temporal Injoyment ; another while , Carnal Advantages one great thing ; and then he questions , Whether we have not a Way to augment our outward Loss ? Thus shewing his Variation and Doubtfulness in his own perverse and most apparent Slander against our Sufferings : And finally after he hath thus perversly vilified them ( as , Carnal Interest being either the chief thing , or only thing , or one great thing ; or whether we have not such a Way to augment , &c. ) he saith , If not , then may not a Disposition to be singular , and to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to all other men , and to be noted in the World as a People of peculiar Motions and Fancies prevail very much with you , to Do and Suffer as you do , p. 76. Rep. His wicked surmising a Carnal Advantage to be our End , is now turned into a Suggestion of a Disposition to be singular and noted in the World , which , though varying from the former , is also abominably false and wicked ; and our Consciences bear us witness in the fight of God , that T. H. hath shamefully slandered the real Intent and End of tur Sufferings in these matters : And what do all his Atempts herem tend to , but to calumniate , defame and odifie us and our Sufferings to the World , and to make us so obnoxious to the Powers , and both wilfully and Irreligiously repugnant to the Goverment , as that they may fall more vigorously upon ●…us to ruin and destroy us , If they will believe this reviling , inveterate Baptist , who is so very dirty that he had need to be more dipt then ever he was , who hath shewn his implacable Enmity and persecuting Spirit , from which he hath fomed out his own Shame ( like a malitious Incendiary ) which will the more extend to the Discredit and Dis-reputation of himself & his Brethren that own him , and not to the making void the Christian Reputation which we , the People , called Quakers have on the behalf of God and his living Truth : However T. H. hath published us as no Christians , and most shamefully treated us like an Insinuating Temporizer , falslly and deceitfully accusing us of Enmity against the Ministry and Institutions of Jesus Christ , p. 76. but neither tells us , who he intends are that Ministry , nor what he means by those Institutions , whether he intends not Baptist-Preachers , and their Night-dipping , &c. Though for his Cover he would make the World believe , as if we were really acted and influenced by some Romish Emissaries to insinuate many of their Heresies , to distract , dejor●… and defame the Protestant Profession p. ●…6 . which is still slanderous and fallacious , tending to make us suffer by such deceitful and popular Insinuations ; as if to vindicate our selves & our ●…nnocent and Just Cause from the perverse Calumnies of a few peevish Dippers and Anabaptists were such an Heretical Crime to distract and deform the Protestant Professions ; and as if these distracted Anabatists were the Protestants Principal Representatives . And He having abused us after thi●… his deceitful and malitious way , and with his calumniating Language against us , our Religion , and Sufferings ; the summary Conclusion of his Method against us , runs thus , viz. Cheats , and Impostors , great Imposters , p. 27 , 28 , 62. Knave , Knave , a false and dec●…itful man and that willfully , a man false and deceitful , really salse and dishonest , p. 39 , 52 , 53 , 91. before his Words were against G. W. Deceitful Fellow , Audacious Fellow , Impudent Fellow , You are a Knave , You are a Knave : And to C. Harris , You are a Cocks-Comb ; I 'l prove you a Cocks-Comb . Such Tinkers-Rhetorick as this , he is very ready at , when his morose Cholerick-Humor is up ; also Blasphemers , or Blasphemy and Heresy , he is very ready to charge men with , when his corrupt Opinions are opposed ; and finally , that our Religion should be a mecr Cheat , calculated only to the Service of the Devil , pag. 62. This is the highest Charge proceeding from the hight of his Rancor and Malice ; as also his notoriously defaming our Sufferings , to be for the Satisfaction of Wills , Lusts , promoting Carnal Interests , Carnal Advantages , outward Gains , &c. as before : Concerning these matters as considered of together , I appeal to you , his Brethren , W. Kiffin and the rest ; let Honesty and Conscience speak , whether they do not savour of a Persecuting Spirit ; and , whether they are not of an evil Tendence , as before signified , to stir up Persecution against us : And knowing that he hath most abominably and falsly traduced our Sufferings , and so reproached our whole Body as we are a People , and that in this publick manner in his Pamphlet , we do expect that Justice and Right from you his Brethren , as that you should give out a publick Testimony against his Injury done us and our Sufferings in this Case , and allow us our Consciences and Religion therein , how erroneous and mistaken soever you think them ; otherwise , if you refuse to do us this Right , and so connive at your Brother Hicks his Iniquity , we must look upon you so far concerned in the Guilt thereof , as not doing us that Right and Justice that both Truth , Equity and Reason requires of you : So as you do intend to clear and quit your selves , be Ingenuous , plain and open in this matter , which doth so nearly concern you , Thomas Hicks being a Brother and Teacher among you , against whom we call for Judgment and Justice to be done us in as publick a manner as his Abuses and Injuries are in Print . God knows , who beareth Witness with my Spirit , and is my Record , that I bear no Ill-will nor Prejudice to you , or any of you , what ever any bear towards me : And for those things wherein your Brother Tho. Hicks hath abused and wronged me , I defire he may Repent thereof , and I wish he may find a place for Repentance ; as also that you who are concerned in Society with him , may clear and quit your selves of his inveterate Spirit and gross Abuses against us , who bear Love and Good-will towards you and all men , believing that there are some among you that are more tender and honest , and of a better Spirit then T. H. for whose sakes I have writ thus much , and not for his ; for he hath shewn himself Dirty and Wicked , who hath made no Conscience to forge , and spread many notorious Lyes and Slanders against us . And therefore however takenotice of this , that it will not be reputable for you to allow or own him as a Teacher among you , nor for you to sit . under him ( who hath no Power either over his Tongue or Passion ) unless he Repent , and as publickly Revoak , Judge and Condemn his gross Errors , Abuses , Lyes Slanders and Forgeries , as he hath broached and spread them ; and if you suffer him to go on a Preacher among you without a publick Reproof from you , and his open Recantation , it will lye upon you as Upholders of a persecuting Spirit , and rende●… you as uncharitable and unchristian Professors of Christia●…ity , for suffering such a notorious piece of Wickedness , as this of T. Hicks's , to proceed from among you unreproved . But I really desire the Lord may open your Eyes so as you may clear your selves ; and that Envy and Prejudice may cease and dye among you , that you may not dye and perish in it . A Serious Reflection Upon some of Will. Burnet's Chief Arguments , about the Resurrection of the SAME FLESH , In his Book , stiled , The Capital Principles of the People called Quakers . W. B. IF Jesus Christ did rise again with that Body that went Arg. I. to the Crave , then there is a Resurrection from the Grave of the same Body , &c. But Christ did leave the Grave empty , &c. Ergo. Arg. II. If Jesus Christ rose from the Dead with Flesh and Bones , yea with the same Flesh as was nailed to the Cross , Joh. 20. 27. then there is a Resurrection from the Grave of the same Flesh that goeth to the Grave ; But Christ did rise in the same , Ergo. Answ. This Man's Work savours of Flesh and not Spirit : The Consequence of both his Propositions is inconsistent , and so his Argument is fallacious ; for Christ's Flesh saw no Corruption , being raised the third Day it did not corrupt in the Sepulchre , much less turn to Dust or Earth as others do ; therefore the Instance and Comparison is unequal in this case , though it holds for a more Spiritual End and Advantage then this drives at , for which the Apostle did instance the Resurrection of Christ by the Glory or Power of the Father , that men might believe in that Power : He did not say that Christ's Flesh was raised up the third day , that you might believe that the same Flesh ( as gross part ) of yours that goeth to the Grave and turns to Dust shall be so Raised , as this Man argues ; for Christ's Resurrection was preached , that their Faith might be in God , who raised him up ; that Men might in this Life receive and feel the Spiritual Benefit thereof to their Immortal Souls , and so partake in this Life of the Power of his Resurrection , to be raised up with Christ , in order to reign with him in Glory hereafter●… as for ●…nstance ; Know ye not that so many of us as w●…re baptize●… 〈◊〉 ●…esus Christ , were baptized into his D●…ath ; therefore we 〈◊〉 with him by Baptism into Death , that like as Christ was raised up 〈◊〉 Dead by the Glory of the Father , even so we also should 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Life , Rom. 6. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. to the end . And 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 him by Baptism , wherein also you are risen with him throu●…h 〈◊〉 F●…ith of the Operation of God who hath raised him from the 〈◊〉 . Col. 〈◊〉 . 12 , 13. As also to the same Purpose and End , read Rom. 8. 11. a●…d 10. 9. Eph. 2. 1. 1 Pet. 3. 18 , 19 , 21. 1 Cor. 15. 45. Phil. 3. 10 , 11. 1 Cor. 6. 14. 2 Cor. 4. 14. Joh. 6. ●…9 , 40 Col. 2. 20. and 3. 3 , 4. Eph. 1. 20. and 2. 6. Col. 2. 12. 1 Pet. 1. 3. 21. Heb. 11. 35. 1 Thes. 5. 10 , 11. By all which it is evident , that Christ , Death and Resurrection was not preached for a 〈◊〉 E●…d , but for a spiritual Benefit here , and an eternal Advantage hereafter . But whereas our Opposer carnally infers from Christ's arising , a Resurrection of the same Flesh that goeth to th●… Grave : His Shortness in this , and the Shallowness o●… his fleshly Apprehension , comes under this further Consideration , As First , That all Flesh and Earthly Bodies of Men do not go to the Grave , in hi●… Sense : It is said , Th●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of thy Servants have they given to be Meat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Fow's of Heaven ; the Flesh of thy Saints unto the 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 : Their Blood have they shed like Water round about Jeru●…alem , and there was none to bury them , Psal. 79. 2 , 3. There●…ore these were not laid in Graves of the Earth . As also it is apparent , that the Flesh of many is wasted away with Sickness before they dye , or their Bones be lai●… in the Grave : And likewise many undergo such great Sick●…esses and Calamities in their Life time , as so o●…ten doth , both corrupt and waste their Flesh and Blood , that so often as they are restored to Health again , they have new Fleth or rene●…ed Bodies thereof ; and then , what a vast Bigness would 〈◊〉 Bodies amount to , if raised with all the self 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that they had in their Life time ? Moreover through 〈◊〉 Judgment and sore Exercise David said , My ●…ones ●…leave to my Skin , Psal. 102. 5. And my K●…ees are weak through 〈◊〉 , and my Flesh faileth of Fatness , Psal. 109. 24. And as 〈◊〉 signified , when man is chastened with Pain upon his Bed , and the multitude of his Bones with strong Pain , so that his Life 〈◊〉 Bread ; his Flesh is consumed away , that it cannot beseen ; and his Bones ( that were not seen ) stick out : His Soul draweth near unto the Grave , &c. Job 33. 19 , 20 , 21 , 22. Through such Judgement , and Chastisement , they who have known the polluted Flesh consumed away , are not so much concerned for the same Flesh , as these our fleshly Opposers are , whereby they shew , they never experienced such Chastisements , nor underwent such Judgment , that God might hide Pride from them , and keep back their Soul from the Pit : Their proud Flesh would alwayes live , and be reserved to eternal Glory ; Whereas he whose Flesh is consumed away , through the Chastisements of the Lord , and who comes to see that God is gracious therein unto him , to deliver him from going down to the Pit , who saith , I have found a Ransom ; It is said of such a one , His Flesh shall be fresher then a Child's ; he shall return to the Dayes of his Youth , Job . 33. This is not the old Flesh that was consumed away through Chastisements : And as all Flesh is not the same Flesh ; so all Bodies are not of the same kind , as hath been fully shewed . It were more meet , for Baptists and others , to wait to see Judgment and Chastisement from God upon them , to the consuming and wasting away of their corrupt Flesh , then to quarrel for it , and cry , This Body , and this very Flesh , shall arise again out of the Grave , even as Christ's did , and with these very Eyes I shall see God , ( pointing at their present Flesh and carnal Eyes ) when as they do not know but that their Flesh may be divers times consumed and wasted through Judgment or Sickness before they dye ; and so often in the mean time new Flesh , or Bodies thereof restored them , as was hinted ; which if truly obtained as a Token of their inward Renewing unto God , were much better and of more Concernment , then thus carnally to quarrel for their old corrupt Flesh. W. B. Arg. III. Upon Job Chap. 19. 25 , 26 , 27. If Job had that Faith , that with his Flesh he should see God , then it was not in other Flesh ; nor yet another Eye but it was both with his Flesh , and with his Eye , that after this Life he should see God ; therefore do I conclude , that the fleshly Body of Man shall be raised out of the Dust , to see God. Answ. By all which Assertion and Conclusion , we may see and still conclude , how gross and carnal these Anabaptists are in their Apprehensions and Thoughts concerning God ; thus to render him visible to their Flesh and fleshly Eye , supposing that Job in his Belief herein , and God in his being , were like themselves ; whereas God is invisible and an infinite Spirit , not made up of Flesh and Bones to be seen with Flesh and carnal Eyes . As also the man has perverted Job's words which are ( as translated ) Though after my Skin Worms destroy This Body ; yet in my Flesh shall I see God , Job . 19. 26. ( who before said , my Flesh is cloathed with Worms . Job . 7. 5. ) It is not , that with My Flesh , or fleshly Body , I shall see God after Worms have destroyed it ; but I N my Flesh I shall see God. Neither did Job quiet himself in his Perplexity with the Belief that his Flesh should see God ( as is imagined ) but that he should see God , as afterwards he did , when he said , I have heard of thee by the Hearing of the Ear ; but now mine Eye seeth thee ; wherefore I abhor my self , &c. Job . 42. 5. Now that wherein Job was quieted , was , That he knew that his Redeemer lived , who should redeem him out of all his Troubles that he had in the Flesh ; and that after his outward Body was destroyed out of his perplexed Flesh , he should see God in an Immortal State : He had no reason to quiet himself upon any Confidence in , or concerning that Flesh , when he was so disquieted and perplexed in it ; for those words , Chap. 19. ver . 26. are differently rendered in the Margins thus , After I shall awake , though this Body be destroyed , yet OUT of my Flesh shall I see God ; see the Margined Bibles of the last Translation , with Hebrew notes and various Translation : Now there is a great Difference between seeing God With my Flesh , and seeing God Out of my Flesh after it is destroyed . But to these men that believe , that with their Flesh or fleshly Bodies they shall see God , he may say , as he said to the Wicked , Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such a one as thy self ; but I will reprove thee , and set them ( to wit thy Iniquities ) in order before thine Eyes , Psal. 50. 21. yea , thou thoughtest that I was so like thy self , as that thou mightest see me with thy Flesh and fleshly Eyes : But thy Thoughts in this were very carnal , and thy Apprehensions very gross ; thou shalt find thou art mistaken , I am an invisible All-seeing Spirit , that searches Hearts , and penetrates through the dark Spirits and Cogitations of Men , to bring their secret Thoughts to Judgment and set their evil Actions in order before them . And there were those that saw Christ's outward or bodily Appearance , that had neither heard the Voice of God , nor seen his Shape , Joh. 5. 37. And Philip said to Christ , shew us the Father , and it sufficeth us . It was not enough for them , nor yet a seeing the Father , to see Christ's Body or Person ; both Father and Son being truly and savingly to be seen in Spirit : And said Christ , a Spirit hath not Flesh and Bones as you see me have . The Anthropomorphites , who were Monks inhabiting the Deserts of Aegypt , held , That God was a Person in the Bigness and Stature of a Man , mistaking that Saying , Let us make Man in our own Jmage , applying it to the Man 's outward Similitude ( and so do the Blasphemous Muggletonians ) and therefore that God is visible to the Carnal Eye and fleshly Body ; from which these Baptists Doctrine ( of seeing God with their Flesh and fleshly Bodies ) is little Different . W. B. Arg. IV. The fourth Witness to this Truth is Martha , Joh. 11. 24. Her Brother Lazarus being dead , that She believed , that he should rise again at the Last Day in the Resurrection : If the Resurrection of dead Lazarus , or that of Lazarus laid in the Grave , was believed and assented to by Martha , &c. Answ. That Martha had such a Belief from the Jews Opinion of the Resurrection , as she intimated of Lazarus his Body ( which Christ did then raise ) is not the matter in Question : But that they and she had it from Christ , or the true and spiritual Understanding thereof , doth not therefore follow ; but rather the Contrary from Christ's own following reprehensive Diversion , after Martha said , I know that he shall rise again in the Resurrection at the Last Day ; Jesus said unto her , I am the Resurrection and the Life , he that believeth in me , though he were dead , yet shall be live ; and whosoever liveth and believeth in me , shall never dye , Joh , 11. 24 , 25. but our Opposer was not pleased to take Notice of this Answer of Christ's , but only of Martha's Words and Belief , and to argue from thence after this manner . Arg. V. The Word Resurrection implyeth to rise again . Answ. And can this be applyed to nothing , nor any other wise , then to that very Flesh or gross Body , that returns to Dust ? Is not Christ the Resurrection and the Life ? And doth not to Rise again , imply , that Man was fallen before ? and that as in Adam all dye , so in Christ shall all be made alive ? And is not Resurrection applicable to that which is quickened ? and must this be understood only of the Dust of dissolved Bodies without any Creation ? For he saith , If God give another Body , and raise not again that Body that before was in being , then it is a Creation , and no Resurrection : So that from hence it is a Resurrection of the same Dust of the gross Bodies dissolved , that seems to be expected by these men , and not any Creation ; and therein is their great Mercy and Com●…ort , though they do not acquiesce herein from Contention and Quarrelling : But in that Resurrection , Quickening , Reviving , Changing , Translation , do not signifie Creation ; therefore they are not applicable to the Dust of Bodies after Dissolution , though both Resurrection and new Creation be to Renewed man ; Behold , I make All things new ; New Man , New Creation , New Heavens , and New Earth , &c. but this is a Mystery hid from corrupt Flesh , so much contended for by our Present Opposers . The rest of his Arguments and Doctrines are mostly very weak and ignorant about this Point , yet comprehensively answered in this Book . Here follow some Passages out of a Manuscript by W. B. against me , with a Reply , detecting his Ignorance in consounding the Carnal Body and the Spiritual : W. B. INdeed , If G. Whitehead hath found out a Body for Christ that is not a Carnal Body ( which implies only a Fleshly ) It is such a Body that I never read o●… in the Scriptures ; I would know what in Scripture is called the Body , but the Flesh ? Now take but away the Flesh , and where is the Body ? Aye but , saith G. W. It is a spiritual Body ; as if a Body of Flesh and a Spiritual could not stand together : This is his Great mistake . The Apostle could have born his Testimony to this Truth , that it is the Body of Flesh that shall be raised spiritual , 1 Cor. 15. 14 , 43. It is sown a natural Body , 't is raised spiritual , here the Apostle still keeps to the Word ( It ) &c. Answ. The Non-sense and Contradiction that may be gathered from these Passages , is , that Christ's Body is a Carnal Spiritual Body , as if Carnal and Spiritual were both one ; or that the Spiritual Body that 's raised or given to the Seed , is Carnal . Let these Passages be kept in Record , as the Baptists Doctrine and Testimony ; whereas the Apostle's own Testimony proves the Contrary , and that W. B. has belyed the Apostle : For 't is sown a natural Body , it is raised a spiritual ; and there is a Natural Body , and there is a Spiritual Body : Here the Apostle clearly makes a Distinction and a Difference between the natural Body and the spiritual ; He doth not say , 't is sown a natural Body , and raised a natural or Carnal Body also , but a spiritual Body ; as he also distinguisheth between the Bodies Celestial and the Bodies Terrestrial ; as those of Sun , Moon and Stars differ from those of Men , Beasts and Fishes : Now you would count him a very blind Philosopher , that should make no Difference , but say , they are all one and consistent , or that the Bodies of Sun , Moon and Stars , were all one with those Earthly Bodies of Men and other Creatures ; and so blind and such Ignorant Divines are these Baptist's . He understands not the Difference between the Natural Body and the Spiritual , any more then if a Person should be so ignorant as ( when he sees the Sun , or Moon , or Stars ) To ask , if these were not Men , or Birds , or Beasts , or Fishes , in the Firmament ; or on the contrary , if he should see Men , Beasts and Fishes , to ask , if these are not the Sun , Moon and Stars ; or rather to conclude that they are , because he knows not which are Celestial and which Teriestrial , no more then this Baptist doth discern between Bodies natural or carnal , and Bodies spiritual : But how should he do other , or see better while his Mind is so much upon Flesh , and so little upon Spirit ; or so much upon Flesh and Blood which cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , and so little upon that spiritual Birth or Seed that doth inherit the Kingdom of Glory and Peace . And as for the Baptists Argument , That the Apostle still keeps to the Word ( IT ) as , It is sown a natural Body , It is raised a spiritual ; or God giveth it a Body as it pleaseth him , and to every Seed his own Body . Reply . How evident is it , that as the Particle It is used as a Relative to both the natural and spiritual Body , 't is a mutable * It ; for that there is a natural Body and there is a spiritual Body , which therefore are not the self-same ; the very Parable or Instance of the Wheat and other Grain may confute his Opinion herein ? For is it the very self-same Grain of Wheat that is in the Eare that was sown in the Ground ? Let the Husband-Men judge him herein . To him we may say , as the Apostle did in the same Case to such , O Fool ! thou sowest not that Body that shall be , &c. 1 Cor. 15. And now the words , It 's sown , imply a Seed sown , in order to a sprouting and bringing forth Increase : Upon which it may be queried , if that Body of Man ( to wit ) that of Flesh , Blood and Bones , ( that 's laid in the Grave , or drowned in the Sea , or devoured by Fire , and some by Beast's , &c. ) be the Seed that the Apostle intended , to which God giveth a Body as it pleaseth him , yea , or nay ? If it be answered in the Affirmative , then what Body is it that God giveth to it , as it pleaseth him ? If it be answered in the Negative , that overthrows the Baptists Doctrine of the same Flesh , Blood , and Bones , &c. which W. B. has not distinguished from a spiritual Body . THE RESURRECTION , Future Glory and Felicity of the SAINTS , Further asserted ( according to the Holy Scriptures ) Discovering , How far short of the true Vision , Sight , or Revelation thereof our present Opposers are in their gross Thoughts and Traditional Conjectures : Being An Examination of Thomas Danson ' s Arguments and Doctrines ( about the Resurrection , Future State and Glory of Believers ) in his Synopsis . THe Resurrection as plentifully asserted in the Scriptures , is not in the least question'd by us ( however we be unjustly censur'd for denying it ) Therefore there is no necessity of his Argument to evince that , which ( as he saith ) the Scripture is so plentiful in asserting of ; nor doth he evince it according to the Scriptures , but varies from them , as will appear . His Argument , If the Bodies that have done Good or Evil , must receive their Reward accordingly ; then the same Bodies that dye must rise again : But the Antecedent is true ; therefore the Consequent . Answ. This Argument ( both Antecedent and Consequent ) appears neither clear , nor grounded upon Truth , as it placeth an Eternal Reward upon the Body for its temporal Acts , in putting the Body ( on this account ) for Man that hath acted therein , who must receive the things done in the Body , 2 Cor. 5. 10. The meer Terrestrial Body being neither the Subject reteining Perpetual Love or Enmity to God ; nor is it the Original Cause of Good or Evil Actions , therefore not the Object of eternal Love or Wrath ; but Man in his Spiritual Existence or Being , as spiritually and suitably organized ( as it pleaseth God ) to receive the things done in his Body , according to what he hath done , whether it be Good or Evil , proper and natural to the Image he bears , which the Soul carries along with it out of the Earthly Body or House that turns to Dust : But see the Proof of his Antecedent , That the Bodies , that have done Good or Evil , must receive their Reward accordingly ( which Proposition is the Antecedent ) is evident by 2 Cor. 5. 10. and then the Consequence is firm , &c. Rep. He hath manifestly perverted the Text ; it doth not say , The Bodies must receive their Reward accordingly ( though in some Sense it may be granted according to their temporal Actions ) But we must all appear before the Judgment-seat of Christ , that every one may receive the Things done IN his Body , according to that he hath done , whether it be Good or Bad , 2 Cor. 5. 10. And but a few words before he saith , We are co●…fident I say , and willing rather to be Absent from the Body , and to be Present with the Lord , ver . 8. Wherefore he knew that they were Capable both of a Being , and Reward with the Lord , when absent from the Body ; and that as when in the Body they had found Acceptance with him , they received the Deeds done in the Body when out of it ; to Dye being Gain unto them . Every man's Works shall follow him ; the Nature of them shall remain in him , whether it be Good or Evil , that he Lives and Dies in : The Soul spiritually hath its proper Organ , Vessel or Body , wherein either the Habit of Good or Evil , Holiness or Filthiness cleaves to it , and wherein accordingly it retains either Mercy or Wrath , Love or Hatred from God , when the earthly Mansion or House is destroyed & turned to Dust , as it was ; there being a House or Cloathing that cleaves more closely to the Soul then Dust can : and it will come to pass that he that will be filthy , must be filthy still ; and he that is Holy , let him be Holy still : Behold I come quickly , and my Reward is with me , to give every man according as his Work shall be , Rev. 22. 11 , 12. Rom 2. 6. And therefore Wo will be to their Souls who reward Evil to themselves , and whose Souls delight in their Abominations ; and Tribulation and Anguish upon every Soul of Man that doth Evil , of the Jew first , and also of the Gentile ; but Glory , Honour and Peace to every man that Worketh Good , to the Jew first , and also to the Gentile , Rom. 2. 8 , 9 , 10. But to procced to T. D's further Proof of his Antecedent and Consequent , which to Ordinary Readers ( he saith ) may seem inconsequent ( by which then he must be more then an ordinary Writer ) The Place he cites , is Mat. 22. 31 , 32. T. D. For the surther Proof of Antecedent and Consequent , I shall first explain the Terms of Christ's Argument , &c. The Place is , Mat. 22. 31 , 32. As touching their Resurrection from the Dead , have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God , saying , I am the God of Abraham , and the God of Isaac , and the God of Jacob ; God is not the God of the Dead , but of the Living : And it is added Luk. 20. 38. for all live unto him . This Passage he thus explains , viz. 1. To be a God to Abraham , notes a Covenant-Relation . Answ. True ; and then it follows , that they who are in this Covenant-Relation , are those that live to him , whom he is the God of ; Wheresore Abraham , Isaac & Jacob , and all Partakers of the same Covenant live unto God , in Union of Spirit , and with the Spirits of all Just Men , though in a more full injoyment of Glory hereafter ; as Abraham , &c. is not dead , because God is his God , and he in Possession of Eternal Glory . 2. Not the God of the Dead : He saith , that might be meant either of them who are Dead simply , or of them that are so dead as that they shall never return to Life ; not in the former Sense , therefore in the Latter . Are we therefore ( as by this ) to read the Words thus , viz. God is not the God of the Dead , that are so Dead as that they shall never return to Life ; but of the Dead that shall return to Life ? And then what are those Dead that shall never return to Life ; Or those Dead that God is not the God of , if the Living and Dead must all be applyed to the Outward or Earthly Bodies ? But had he been sensible of his Sense before , that to be a God to Abraham ( and so of the Living ) notes a Covenant-Relation , and that Christ speaks of such as shall be accounted worthy to obtain that World and the Resurrection , Luk. 20. 35. he might have understood that the Dead , whom he is not the God of , are such as are Strangers to that Covenant-Relation , and live not to God , however their Souls be Immortal . 3. But of the Living , that is ( saith he ) of them whom God intends to restore to Life , or whose Bodies live potentially ; not only of them whose Souls live actually ; for all Live to him , &c. If the Living must intend the terrestrial Bodies of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob , then that Denomination Living , is given to those that are truly Dead ( as he saith ) and then I ask , if it be good Doctrine , or proper to say , that all those dissolved Bodies do live unto God ? Whereas in Christ's words there is no mention of their Elementary Bodies , but that the Dead are raised , and that he is the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob ; and these were they that Lived unto him , who were counted worthy to obtain that World , and the Resurrection . And it is further evident , that when the Saducees ( who said , there is no Resurrection , Angel , nor Spirit ) asked Christ about the Wife , whose ( of the Seven ) She should be in the Resurrection ? their Thoughts were carnal , and upon the Carnal or Earthly Bodies , which Christ's Answer did not gratifie in his asserting the Resurrection ( as to the State of the Righteous after this Life ) He said , The Children of this World marry , and are given in Marriage ; But they which shall be counted worthy to obtain that World , and the Resurrection from the Dead , neither Marry , nor are given in Marriage : Neither can they dye any more ; for they are equal unto the Angels , and are the Children of God , being the Children of the Resurrection , Luk. 20. 35 , 36. 1. Note here first , That he speaks of a Resurrection-state in the World to come , wherein the Children of God so much excel in their Beings , as that they are equal unto the Angels , whose Bodies are not such as these Earthly ones of the Children of this World , wherein they Marry ; but in that World they are in another Capacity , more Sublime and Spiritual ; even Equal unto the Angels : whereby Christ doth not only assert the Resurrection and an Immortal State ; but also the Spirituality and Glory thereof far Transcending this earthly State and Body . 2. As thus considered , it is plainly implied that there are but some that are counted worthy to obtain that World and the Resurrection , that is , the Children of God , who live unto him ; as Paul saith , if by any means I might attain unto the Resurrection of the Dead , Phil. 3. 10 , 11. Now , therefore to apply this Resurrection to the Terrestrial Body of the Righteous , and hence to argue for Immortalizing that Dust , which that Body returns to ; it implieth thus much , that Only the Bodies of the Children of God ( who are counted worthy ) shall rise : and how agrees this with our Opposers Intention ? 3. Moreover , while Christ intended by his Answer , that those that were counted Worthy , &c. even the Children of God , and such as lived unto God , were the Children of the Resurrection ; and that they cannot dye any more , &c. This agrees with his Answer to Martha , Joh. 11. 24 , 25 , 26. I am the Resurrection , and the Life ; he that believeth in me , though he were dead , yet shall he Live ; and who soever liveth and believeth in me , shall never dye . Though this be a plain asserting of the Resurrection , yea , and that of the Dead ; yet it is as plain a Diversion ( as far remote ) from the carnal and gross Thoughts and Apprehension that the Jews in that Age had of the Resurrection , as his Answer to the Saducees was from their gross Thoughts about it . Concerning the Scope of these words of Christ before cited , He * saith , There are different Apprehensions ; Some conceive , that Christ hereby proves the Immortality of the Soul ( which the Saducees denyed , as appears Act. 23. 8. for if there be no Soul of a Spiritual Nature in Man , it must needs be Mortal , as his Body ) and by Consequence , the Resurrection of the Body . The Saducees denying the Resurrection of the Body , because they denied the Immortality of the Soul ( as these Interpreters conceive ) Others , that Christ intends only to prove the Resurrection of the Body : So Calvin . Others , that Christ intends both directly : So Beza Diodati . And from these Differences T. D. differently frames his Argument several times , p. 76. From hence it is observable , that this Man not seeing with his own Eyes , proceeds to argue doubtfully from the different Apprehensions and Conceptions of others , viz. Some Conceiving , 1. That Christ hereby proves the Immortality of the Soul , and by Consequence only the Resurrection of the Body . 2. Others , that Christ intends only to prove the Resurrection of the Body . 3. Others , that he intends both directly . See how these Learned Men and Students differ and oppose each other in their Apprehensions and Conceivings ; and what Certainty can we expect from T. D. their Schollar ? And how came he to undertake such a Controversie , about such a weighty and mysterious Point upon such dubious and uncertain Grounds , as only mens different Apprehensions , Conceivings and Consequences can produce or amount to ? ( which argues more Confidence then Knowledge in him ) And T. D. to vary his Arguments thereupon ( from his uncertain Conjectures and fallible Judgment ) as with him it is either thus , or else thus ; or more plainly , thus , &c. 1. They whos 's God , God is , shall rise from the Dead : God is Abraham's , Isaac's and Jacob's God ; Therefore they ( and all other Believers ) shall rise again . Or else thus : 2. They whos 's God , God is , after Death shall Rise again , &c. 3. Or the Argument , may be framed more plainly thus , viz. If God be under a Promise to Glorifie the Persons of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob , then their Bodies must rise again : but God is under such a Promise ; Ergo , pag. 77. Answ. 1. That God is the God of the Living , both of Abraham and all Believers . 2. They all live unto God in Righteousnes here , and Glory hereafter . 3. He that liveth and believeth in me ( saith Christ ) shall never dye . These prove the blessed Resurrection of the Children of God , who are Children of the Resurrection : But what Proof hath he produced herein of the self-same Earthly , numerical Body's rising ? His Assertion being the Resurrection of the Body in general ; his Proof is the Resurrection of those whom God is the God of , viz. Believers ; and that their Body must be glorified : which so far as Christ intends , is granted . That in the World to come they are equal unto the Angels , what is this to the Earthly , Elementary Bodies of all in general , which Angels do far surmount and transcend in Glory ? Neither hath he by all that he hath said , proved , that the Promise of Eternal Glory ( he mentions ) extends to the same Earthly Body of Flesh and Blood ( that now is ) after dissolved to Dust , or its first Elements ; or that it is capable of that Glory which is Eternal , though the Believer be as in his Spirituality , or spiritual Body glorified . Now , as touching the Promise of God to Abraham and his Seed , it was not only of a Temporal Inheritance or outward Canaan ; but also of an eternal Inheritance of Life and Glory , for the Injoyment whereof they had a two-fold Capacity , an Outward and an Inward , a Natural and a Spiritual ; and so far God was their God in each . But that the Eternal Glory was promised to the Terrestrial or Natural Body of Abraham , &c. T. D. ( though he runs on with it and takes it for granted ) doth meerly beg the Question , as if Abraham in his new Spiritual and Glorious State were but a Part of Abraham ; and consequently not fully Capable of absolute Felicity , without the Dust of his dissolved Cloathing being immortalized ( I understand not that they 'l admit of any new Creation of it , to make it a compleat Body , who are of the Anabaptist's mind ) And after the same manner he may as well say , that all the Saints , who are said to be in Glory , are not perfectly in Glory , but only in Part ; as but part of Abraham , part of Isaac , part of Jacob , part of Moses , part of Elias , part of Paul , &c. are in Heaven , in Glory , or in the Rest which is Glorious ( and so of all the other ( as if , when Moses and Elias appeared with Christ in the Mount to Peter , &c. it were not proper or true to say , Moses and Elias ; but Part of Moses & El●…as appeared : And what Bodies appeared they in ? were they Human , Earthly Bodies , or Angelical ? ) and by this , that they are not as yet absolutely Happy , or at Rest , without their little earthly Mansions or Tabernacles , when they must needs enjoy far better , viz. an Heavenly Cloathing and Mansion , or House Eternal in the Heavens ; being the more Spiritualized and changed into Spirituality , they are in a higher and more meet Capacity for that Enjoyment . T. D. 2. God were not fully Abraham's God , or did not fully make good his Promise , if he Glorified one Part of Abraham , and not another . Answ. God , in his Glorifying Abraham in a Spiritual Sate , and Body that transcends all Earthly Bodies , or that part ( as he calls it ) of Abraham , which is Spiritual , and therefore most capable of an Eternal Glory , he shews himself to be 〈◊〉 God , he being the God of the Spirits of all Flesh ( and most eminently of his Children ) and who hath all Souls in his Hand . But in Answer to what he saith hereafter , let us enquire , whether the Promise of God to Abraham and his S●…ed , of eternal Glory and Happiness , cannot be made good without the Earthly and perishing Organs . T. D. 3. Nor were the Promise , to Glorifie Abraham's Soul , made good , without glorifying his Body too ; for the Happiness of the Soul is not Perfect without the Body , its dear and beloved Companion ; the Soul having a strong Desire * and Inclination to a Re-union to the Body , as the Schools not without good Ground determine : vid. Calvin Harm . Evang. in Mat. 22. 31 , 32. Luk. 20. 38. Answ. It is evident that this Man doth give this account ( that the Happiness of the Soul is not perfect without the Body ) not from any spiritual Sight of the Souls Happiness or Glory ; for in Page 81. he confesseth , that the different Disposal of the Spirits of Man and Beast is not visible to the Eye of Sence , and but dimly to the Eye of Reason and Faith ; although he has taken upon him by Tradition from Calvin , &c. to assert , that the Happiness of the Soul is not perfect without the Body : It may be understood , that they have neither clear Reason , nor perfect Faith for this ; and to be sure , while he and others assert it without either , we have no Reason to believe them . But to answer him closely ; Both Calvin , T. D. the Schools , and divers Anabaptists are mistaken in this very Matter , and see not with the Eye of true Faith , either that the Happiness of the Soul is not perfect without the Body ; Or , that the Soul hath a strong Desire to a Re-union to the Body , ●…hile they intend the Terrestrial , Elementary Bodies : for this implies the Soul to be in a kind of Purgatory or Disquietness , till the supposed Resumption of the Body ; and their Assertion and Determination herein is Contraty to what the Apostle saith 2 Cor. 5. for we know , that if our earthly House of this Tabernacle were dissolved , we have a Building of God , an House not made with Hands , eternal in the Heavens , ver . 1. for we that are in this Tabernacle , do groan , being burdened , &c. ver . 4. We are confident , I say , and willing rather to be absent from the Body , and to be present with the Lord , ver . 8. And said he , I am in a Strait betwixt two , having a Desire to depart , &c. Phil. 1. 23. See now the Stress of the Controversie where it lieth , and that it is not only between these our Opposers & Us ; but also between them and the Apostle Paul : Thus ( viz. ) Calvin , the Schools , 〈◊〉 and Anabaptists determine and conclude , That the Happiness of the Soul is not perfect without the Body ; and that the Soul ( when separate ) hath a strong Desire and Inclination to a Re-union to the Body : But , The Apostle Paul , as knowing , that when their Earthly House was dissolved , they had a far better , namely a Building of God , Eternal in the Heavens ; Therefore , in the Earthly Tabernacle they gro●…ned , being burdened , as willing rather to be absent from the Body . By which it appears , they expected a more full Fruition or Felicity in the Heavenly Tabernacle , then in the Earthly : Their Soul did not desire after the Flesh , as these Opposers imply ; neither had they any such Delight therein , as fleshly Minds , and carnal Contenders have . Moreover , the Apostle from the Visions and Revelations of the Lord , saith , I knew a Man in Christ , above fourteen Years ago , whether IN the Body , or OUT of the Body , I cannot tell ; God knows : Such an one caught up to the third Heaven — caught up into Paradise , and heard upspeakable Words , &c. 2 Cor. 12. From hence consider , that being caught up to the 3d Heaven , into Paradise , he doth not place the Sight and Sence of this Condition upon the Body ; for that he knew not whether he was In the Body , or Out of the Body , yet knew , that he was a Man in Christ , and in the Revelation of the Lord : But he did not concern himself about this Earthly Body being so glorified in Heaven or Paradise , as these Men do , and carnally think , who have neither Visions nor Revelations of the Lord concerning any such State , but Calvin and the Schoolmens Determination , contrary to the Apostles . But the presumptuous Confidence of our Opposers appears the more , in undertaking to assert or demonstrate the future State of the Soul , as not being in perfect Happiness without the Body , and as having a strong Desire after it , while yet they neither know the State of the Soul , nor have had so much as a Vision of the Glory thereof , or of the glorified spiritual State of the Saints hereafter ; for Visions and Revelations they deem to be ceased long since ; and a Disposal of the Spirits of men after Death is not visible to the Eye of Sence , and , he saith , but dimly to the Eye of Reason and Faith : However , while these Men cannot but appear themselves so Dim in these Sublime Matters ; and that , while their dim Reason cannot reach them , they cannot demonstrate to others , either that the Souls of the Just in Heaven are not yet perfectly Happy , or that they have such a strong Desire to a Re-union with the Body dissolved , the shew themselves imaginary Intruders , puft up in their fleshly Minds , exercising themselves in things too high for them ; and it were better for them to sit down in Silence , and wait in the Light to have some Sence and Knowledge of the true immortal Life , to quicken them to God ; and not thus to busie themselves with unprofitable Talk , brought forth from Imaginations of men , and not from any true Sight or Revelation of the Conditions of Saints , either here or hereafter . His telling of Abraham's Soul living actually , is true ; and as true it is , That his Soul is in perfect Felicity and Glory , and the more , being out of the Earthly Tabernacle . But his saying , that the Body of Abraham ( or Bodies of the deceased Believers ) liveth potentially ; for this we have his own Traditional Assertion , but not any Scripture-Proof or Phrase that suits it , nor rational Demonstration for it . As to his saying , That if any shall say , that Christ's Argument , and his Application of it , proves but the Resurrection of the Good , &c. I say , his Application thereof seems but to extend to the Good , as in his saying , They whose God , God is , shall rise ; yet he hath not proved the Rising of their Earthly Bodies , after they are dissolv'd to Dust , and reduc'd to their first Elements ; but that there is a Resurrection of the Good ; and who of us questions that ? The Resurrection of the Good or of the Just , being Glorious , and extending not only to Arising out of the Fall , out of Death that came by it , out of the Grave of Corruption , which hath followed , yea , out of the Dust of that Earth , and out of all Afflictions here ; but also unto an Inheritance of Eternal Glory hereafter ; as , They that be Wise shall shine as the Brightness of the Firmament ; and they that turn many to Righteousness , as the Stars forever and ever : So that they shall be so Celestial and Glorious , as that they shall incomparably excell these Terrestrial Bodies . And therefore where it is said , That the Saducees and Quakers Proposition be , that there is no Resurrection from the Dead ; This is a Falshood against the Quakers ; and their Sufferings testifie the Contrary : If a Man should say , that the Wheat or other Grain in the Eare , is not the self-same that was sown in the Earth ; doth it therefore follow , that he denies the Arising of Wheat , or any Grain at all ? Or that , when the Apostle in Answer to the Question , that some foolishly put , said , Thou Fool , thou sowest not that Body which shall be ; doth it therefore follow that his Proposition was that there is No Resurrection from the Dead ? And whereas T. D. upon Eccles. 3. 19 , 20 , 21. confesseth , That Men are said to be Beasts in respect to the Mortality of the Body , which being composed of the same Materials with brute Beasts , &c. By this the Reader may observe what kind of Body these men are contending for , and without which they reckon the Souls are not perfectly Happy ; and which they say , The Soul hath a strong Desire to a Re-union with : And with what ? but with the self-same Body , which is composed of the same Materials with brute Beasts . What! Cannot the Soul be ●…erfectly Happy without this ? O the gross Conceits of these Men ! And what do they place their chief Happiness & Glory in ? but in such a perishing Body , as is composed of the same Materials with brute Beasts , which being Dust , returns to the Earth as it was , and the Spirit unto God who gave it , Eccles. 12. 7. ( as he saith true ) to be disposed of as Justice or Mercy shall see meet . But where he saith , As for Ver. 21. If they be the Atheists words personated by Solomon , they note the Reason of his Opinion , &c. herein he appears doubtful , whether they be the Atheist's words , or Solomon's ; for he dubiously varies again , and saith , If they be Solomon ' s own words , &c. Judge Reader ; Is this man fit to discourse of the future States of Men or Saints in Glory , who ( when Solomon speaks of the Spirit of Man that goeth upwards ) knows not , whether he personates the 〈◊〉 's words ; or his own ? Whenas he further saith , The Spirit shall return unto God who gave it , chap. 12. 7. which is implied in his saying , The Spirit of a Man goeth upward : But for Men to follow their own Imaginations , and Traditions of others , concerning the future State of Man , which they have no spiritual Sight of ; as also to determine , that the Soul ( a●…ter Man's Decease ) hath such a strong Desire after the Terrestrial or Carnal Body , that it is not perfectly happy without it , this ( while they have neither Truth nor Reason to demonstrate it ) doth really tend to open a Gap to Atheism , and to make People Atheists , who are not come to know an Immortal Principle in themselves to depend upon , whereby the true Knowledge of Life and Immortality is to be revealed , without which men are 〈◊〉 in their Knowledge , as this man grants ; the Difference bet●…ixt Man and Beast as to their future State , not being visible to the Eye of Sence , as their Agreement in Dissolution is , therefore the Difference is only truly to be seen by a Spiritual Eye , opened by the Divine Light , whereby the Spiritual and Immortal State of Man is seen , and the Glory of the Righteous beheld in the Everlasting Kingdom of God , which Flesh and Blood cannot inherit ; neither can the Carnal Eye see the invisible God : And I must conclude , that while T. D. from 1 Cor. 15. affirms , the whole drift of the Apostle in a great part of the Chapter is , to shew that the same Body shall rise , &c. he doth but herein impose and beg the Question ; and I cannot at all gra●…t him his Assertion to be true , while the Apostle plainly distinguisheth between the first Adam and the Second , the Earthly and the ●…eavenly ; The Natural Body , and the Spiritual , the Celestial and the Terrestrial ; and saith , Thou ●…ool , Thou sowest not that Body that shall be ; and Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. How plainly do these Passages contradict our Opposers ? As also is it not evident that the Man opposeth himself , in granting , That the Body shall rise with so differing Qualities , that it shall be as unlike to what it was before as the standing Corn to the Seed put into the Earth , or as one S●…ar is to another in Brightness and Lustre ; how shall it then be the self-same Terrestrial Body ? For first , Is the st●…nding Corn the self-same Seed that is put into the Earth ? Secondly , Are the Bodies Celestial ( as those of Sun , Moon and Stars ) one and the same with Terrestrial Bodies , as those of Men , Beasts and Fishes ? Verily I find nothing in this Man's Work about this Subject that has any real Weight in it ; and what he hath said of any seeming Stress , it is answered here , and in my Answer to the rest . I desire the Lord may open all their Understandings , and so quicken their spiritual Sences , as that their Minds may be truly spiritualized , that they may be more upon Spirit , and less upon the Flesh , so as to be mor●…ified unto the Flesh , that they may know a Life in the Spirit , wherein they may live unto God in Righteousness here , and Glory herea●…ter ; to set down with 〈◊〉 , Isaac and Jacob , in the Kingdom of God. Finally , in these two Questions much of the Controversie is res●…lved about the ●…uture Rew●…rds of ●…ouls , or of Men after Dissolution , viz. 1. Whether the Righteous ●…e capable of perfect Happiness , or the full Frustion of the 〈◊〉 Rest , when separate from the Earthly 〈◊〉 or Terrestrial Body ; Ye●… , or Na●… ? This may be considered and resolved in this Question , viz. Whether the Angels of God in Heaven ( unto which the Children of God and the Resurrection are equal ) are in perfect Felicity and Glory , who do not exist in Terresirial Bodies , or whose Organs or Cloathing is not Earthly , but Heavenly ? 2. Whether the Wicked be capable of absolute Misery when separate from the Earthly Tabernacle ; Yea , or Nay ? Which on the other hand by the like Reason may be considered and resolved in this Question , viz. Whether the Devil and his Angels be not capable of Everlasting Fire , prepared for them without Terrestrial Bodies ? And then , Whether the cursed Workers of Iniquity ( who live and dye in Sin ) are not to be sentenced into the same Everlasting Fir●… ? But , If it be supposed that the Wicked cannot be absolutely miserable without their Earthly and Elementary Body or Outside ; and therefore they must have it again , to aggravate their Torment : Doth not this then suppose , that their Torment must be Worse then that of Devils , that have not such Bodies supposed to aggravate their Torment ? Howbe●…t though the Judgment of the Wicked be many times figuratively expressed , and set out in Scripture by Parables and Similes ; yet still there is a Reality of Judgment and Torment therein signified in apt Resemblances obvious to the Sences ; as Tophet is ordained of old ; yea , for the King it is prepared , he hath made it deep and large ; the Pile thereof is Fire and much Wood ; the Breath of the Lord like a Stream of Brimstone doth kindle it , Isa. 30. 33. and , Bind him Hand and Foot , and cast him into ulter Darkness ; there shall be Weeping and Gna●…hing of Teeth , Mat. 22. 13. As also , If thy right Eye , Hand or Foot offend , pluck it out , or cut it off , and cast it from thee , as being better that one Member should perish , then the whole Body should be cast into Hell ; where the Worm dyeth not , and the Fire shall never be quenched , Mat. 〈◊〉 . 29. Mark. 9. 49. to the end . Which still argues , that the Impenitent and Wicked are liable to meet with real ●…orment ; and that he hath spiritually his proper Being and Habit consisting of such spiritual Parts and Sences ( having an evil Eye , a polluted Mind , and defiled Conscience , covered with Guilt , pressed down with the Body of Sin , and perplexed with Horror ) wherein he both receiveth the Deeds 〈◊〉 in the Body , and is capable of absolute Misery in the Fire which shall never be quenched , where the Worm dyeth not . As also it is said , The Rich Man also dyed and was buried ; and in Hell he lift up his Eyes , being in Torments , and seeth Abraham afar off , and Lazarus in his Bosom ; and he cried & said , Father Abraham , have Mercy on me , and send Lazarus , that he may , dip the Tip of his Finger in Water , and cool my Tongue ; for I am tormented in this Flame , Luk. 16. 23 , 24. When his Body was buried , yet he had the Sence of Torments that seized upon him ; and a Sight of the other's Felicity which he himself had lost : Therefore as Christ said , I say unto you , my Friends , be not afraid of them that can kill the Body , and after that have no more that they can do , but I will fore-warn you whom ye shall fear , fear him , which after he hath killed , hath Power to cast into Hell ; I say unto you , fear him , Luk. 12. 4 , 5. A Summary of the Difficulties , in the Point in Controversie . FInally , The Controversie is run up to these Difficulties , which I object upon our Opposers Doctrines and Conceptions : 1st , How the self same Bodies should arise compleat after dissolved to Dust , without a New Creation , appears not , nor is it demonstrated by them . 2. If a New Creation of compleat Bodies of the same Dust and Elements should be conceived or admitted , it is Incredible , that God should create any corrupt , sinful or polluted Bodies thereof for perpetual Torments , seeing his Works are pure ; And as Incredible , that he should make a pure Body to be invested with the former Evil Habit of Sin and Corruption , for perpetual Torment in Hell-Fire ; and to be sure , the first Elements or Dust of dissolved ●…odies is as pure as at the first . 3. If Infants be supposed to arise at the Stature of Men , how can theirs be the self-same Bodies they were ? 4. How the Body of the Saints , and Children of the Resurrection , should be either a Celestial , Spiritual , Glorious ; or Angelical Body , and they Equal unto the Angels in Heaven ; and yet the self-same Earthly , Elementary Body that dissolveth to Dust , &c. such a strange Transubstantiation appears not , unless that the Natural Body and the Spiritual , the Terrestrial and the Celestial , the Human and Angelical be both One and the Self-same . 5. That the Soul should not enjoy her self in absolute Felicity or Misery , in perfect Glory or Contempt ( in her proper Vessel or Cloathing spiritually ) without the Earthly Cloathing , which is Dust , appears not , while the Children of the Resurrection are equal unto the Angels of God in Heaven , which are absolutely Happy ; and the Devil and his Angels absolutely Miserable . 6. We cannot believe that the Invisible , Infinite God should be seen with the Bodily or fleshly Eyes , after Dissolution ; not that Job intended he should see God with his Flesh or bodily Eyes ; It being in consistent both with his being an Invisible . Eternal or Infinite Spirit , and with the true spiritual Sight of him which Job received , Job 42. 5. 7. That the Seed to which God giveth a Body as it pleaseth him , 1 Cor. 15. and the Body given to it , should be one and the self same Earthly Body , is a non-sensical Doctrine , and an apparent Incongruity . 8. That the Terrestrial Bodies should be so desirable to the Souls of the Righteous after Dissolution ( for the compleating their Felicity , and perfecting their Glory ) appears plainly inconsistent with their desiring here , to be dissolved and to be absent from the Body , to enjoy and possess a Building of God , au House eternal in the Heavens . Or that the Souls of the Righteous should be so variable , as to desire to be absent from the Body , and presently after Dissolution to desire the Resuming of the same Earthly Body , or a Re-union to it : This implicitely accuseth the Souls of deceased Saints , with being in their Affections both Earthly , Variable and Unquiet , as in a kind of Purgatory : Which we can never assent to . Thomas Vincent's Illustrations ABOUT THE RESURRECTION , Which we may look upon as the Sense of the Rest , and as the Explication of their Doctrines and Opinions , who are Opposing the Spirituality of our Testimony about the Resurrection . [ Among which some Truths are intermixt , though his gross and carnal Conceptions about the Point we cannot close with . ] His Illustrations are in his Book , entituled , Christ's Certain and Suddain Appearance to Judgment . Collected and Placed in his own Words , as followeth [ for the Serious and Spiritual-minded Readers to judge of . ] T. V. GIve me leave to illustrate the Resurrection a little further ; and here I shall endeavour to set it forth by an Allusion to that notable place , Ezek. 37. and ten first Verses , pag. 16. some thing like this will the Resurrection be at the Last Day . Now the Bones and Bodies of all former Generations are scattered up and down in the Valley of the Shadow of Death ; some are sunk into the Deep , others are buried in the Earth ; the Flesh is consumed and resolved into its first Elements ; and the Bones of some remain , of others are mouldred into Earth : Now when the Lord Jesus Christ , the Son of God , shall come down from Mount Sion , which is above , into the Valley of this inferiour World , he will Prophesie over all the Bodies and Bones of all the Children of Men that are dead , and speak unto them to Live ; he will say unto them whilft they lie rotting in their Graves , Live ; he will say , Awake ye that sleep in the Dust : And Oh , what a Noise and Shaking will there be then in the Ground ? What a clattering of Bones together in the coming of Bone to his Bone ? If the Body hath been quartered and buried , part in one place and part in another ( as the Levite's Concubine , who was divided into Twelve Parts , and sent to the Twelve Tribes of Israel , and it is likely buried in twelve distinct places ) the Bones will fly through the Air out of all those places , and meet together in one Body : Oh! what a great part of the Air , Water , and Earth will there run into Conjunction , by the Command of Christ , and be turned into those very Bodies which were resolved into them by Death , and the Corruption of the Pit ? But with the Addition of such new Qualities as shall sublimate , spiritualize , * and refine them from all that Dreggishness , and ill humour that shall be the Foundation of any Sickness or Death forever , then the Bones will come together , & be made like Stones for Strength ; then the Sinnews will be , as it were , Iron Sinnews , and the Flesh , Brass * such Strength will be put into them , as I conceive , is not to be found in the strongest Creatures which hitherto God hath made , that they might be fitted , the Bodies of the Righteous for an Eternal Life of Happiness , and bearing the Glory of Heaven ; The Bodies of the Wicked for an Eternal Life of Misery , and bearing the Torments of Hell , pag. 17 , 18. But , what a Stirring will there be in the Earth ? Those which are alive , will wonder to see such a strange Metamorph●… of the Ground , to seel Men and Women stirring and moving under their Feet , arising and crouding for Room amongst them ? Then will the Lord bring down all the Souls of the Righteous which have been in Paradise with him many Years , and they shall find out their own Bodies : And he will open the Prison of Hell , and let out the Souls of the Wicked for a while , that they also may find out their own Bodies , pag. 19. The Book of God's Remembrance will be opened ; This we are to understand in a Spiritual Sense , not * as if there were a real Book , which God did make use of for his Remembrance of things , as Men do who have Frail and Weak Memories , pag. 22. The Spirits of all the just Men and Women made persect , shall then come down , and enter again into their Old Habitations * pag. 31. when the Soul left the Body vile to putrifie and corrupt in the Grave , and shall finde it come forth more Bright and Glorious then Gold * after it hath been resined in a Furnace . If the Love between the Soul and the Body were so great , when the Body was so vile , and the Soul so Sinful ; what will it be when both are glorified ? If the Conjunction between the Soul and Body were so sweet when the Body was so Frail and subject to Death , and the Soul a Spiritual and Never-dying Subscance , what will it be when the Body shall be made immortal and in some sort spiritual * pag. 32. No sooner are they awakened , and risen out of their Graves , but they are entertained by Angels , those Holy and Excellent Creatures , when before in the Body they were too low , and unfit for their Acquaintance ; but they will then know them , and be able to discern the Beauty of those lovely Spirits , pag. 33. They will arise like so many shining Suns * out of the Earth , pag. 34. They admired to see the Saints , and to see themselves so transformed , pag. 36. He will bring the Keys of Death and Hell along with him , and open both these Prison Doors , not to give Liberty and Release to the Prisoners : But as prisons are opened at Assizes , to bring them sorth unto Judgment * he will open the Prison of Hell and all the Souls of the Wicked shall come forth like so many 〈◊〉 cut of the bottomless Fit , and he will open the Prison of the Grave , and all their Bodies shall creep Like so many ugly Toads out of the Earth , and then Soul and Body shall be joyned together again ; and this Meeting will be sad beyond Expression : Then the Meeting of the Souls and Bodies of the Wicked will be dolesul , pag. 46 , 47. It is said that the vile Bodies of the Righteous shall be made like unto Christ's Body in Beauty and Glory * but the Bodies of the Wicked will have another Hew and Fashion ; if it were possible to fashion Bodies like Devils , those impure and foul Spirits , such spiritual Bodies the Wicked should have : Be sure their Bodies shall have no Glory put upon them ; but as they lay down Vile Bodies , they shall rise up far more Vile * — The Bodies of the Wicked most probably will be Swarthy , Black , Ugly , Monstrous Bodies , p. 48. — The Blackness and Dread of the Soul would quickly appear in their Countenance ; besides the Impressions which the Fire of Hell will have upon them — & if the Body be black , how black will the Soul be , after so long abode with foul Devils in the lower Regions of Darkness ? And when such foul Souls and such vile Bodies meet , what a Meeting ! what a Greeting will there be ! We may fancy a kind of Language to be between them at that Day ; The Soul to the Body , Come out of thy Hole , thou filthy Dunghil , Flesh ; for the Pampering and Pleasing of whom , I have lost my self forever ; who hast stolen away my Time , and Thoughts and Heart from God , and Christ , and Heavenly Things , to feed , and cloathe , and cherish thee , and make Provision to satisfie thy base deceitful Lusts , when I should have been making Provision for thine and mine Everlasting Happiness . Awake , and come forth of the Dust , thou Bewitching Dirty Flesh , who didst lull me asleep so long in thy pleasing Chains , until thou didst suddenly open thy Doors , and thrust me out , where I was awakened in Torments before I was aware ; Now I must come into thy Doors again , that thou mayst share and taste the Bitter Issue of sinful Pleasures and Delights : And , O how will the Body be affrighted , so soon as the Soul is entered , p. 49. — The Body to the Soul , And hast thou found me out , O my Enemy ? Couldst not thou have let me alone , to lie still at rest in this sweet Sleep ? Hast thou used me as a Slave , and employed all my Members as Servants of Iniquity and Unrighteousness , and 〈◊〉 thou come now to Torment me ? and is this the Fruit of all the Pleasures we have taken together ? Shouldst not thou have been more VVise , and provided better for thy self and me . ? O! what Cryes and Shreeks will the Tongue give forth , so soon as it hath recovered its Use ? p. 50. 2. The second Antecedent to the Judgment of the Wicked , will be their Meeting with Devils — to entertain them at their Resurrection ; and then they will not appear unto them like Angels of Light , as sometimes here they have done , p. 50. — but they will spit forth their Venom and Malice then in their Faces ; possibly they may buffet their Bodies , and lay painful Stroaks upon them : surely they will terrifie their Souls for those Sins they have drawn them unto the Commission of p. 51. — How will they be affrighted at the Apparition of * so many Devils about them ? — when they shall lash their Spirits with Horrible Scourges , when they shall seize upon their Bodies , and Tear them and Drag●… them to the Judgment Seat , and there is none to Rescue and Deliver them 3. The Third Antecedent to the Judgment of the Wicked will be their Meeting one with another — O what an innumerable Company of Rebels , and Traytors , and Villains will then be got together ? How fiercerly and horribly will they look one upon another ? And if they speak , what Language of Hell will there issue forth of their Lips ? They may meet with their old Companions and Fellow-Sinners ; but it will not be like such as they now call Meetings of Good Fellowship , when they get together in a Tavern , & Ale-house , or someHouse of Wickedness , to Drink , and Sing , and Daunce and Sin , and make Merry in the pleasing of their Flesh ; they shall not then have Ale , and Wine , and Women , and Musick , or any Incentives to Mirth and tensual Pleasures — O the Angry Countenances the Wicked will have on that Day ! — O the Angry Speeches ! How will they Rage and Storm at one another , p. 52. — O the Horrible Noise that will be amongst the Damned Crew , when they are got together ! It may be from Words they fall to Blows , and Tear one anothers Hair , and Spurn at one anothers Bellies , and Bite one anothers Flesh , and even Claw out one anothers Eyes * we cannot conjecture so much of the Misery of the VVicked , as will be on that Day , p. 53. — Friends will be together at that Day as at other times ; Some will be in Churches together , it may be Ministers preaching , and People hearing , as you are hearing me this Day : Suppose that the Heavens should just now open , and you should hear the Sound of the last Trumpet , then all you that are Believers , would immediately be caught up into the Clouds ; but all you that are Impenitent and Unbelievers , would be left behind : VVhat Terror would fall upon you , to see us caught away from you ? * It may be some of you might come hanging about me and others , when you see us arrayed in shining Garments ; O take us up along with you ! VVhat , will you leave us behind ? Alas ! what can I do for you then ? p. 54. — I came with Oyle often to Sell * from my Lord and Master ; and you might have had it for nothing ; you might have bought it without Money * and without Price ; but then you ●…leighted and refused all Proffers of Grace which were made , p. 56. Alas●… VVhy do you hang about me with Tears and VVeeping ? VVhat can I do for you now ? Can I carry you all up with me in my Arms ? If all of us together could hand and help some of you up into the Air with us , and bring you into the Presence of our Dear and Glorious Redeemer , with what Confidence could you stand before him ? with what Face could you look upon him , when you are so Black and Filthy ? VVould not your Looks betray you to be none of our Number ? Would not your black and Trembling Joynts speak what you are ? — Could we carry you up with us ? If you should lay hold on us , would not the Angels snatch us out of your Arms ? or would not Devils tear you away from us ? pag. 58. — The Saints are all risen , and have put on their Glorious Attire , and we are called for : It is your own Faults * that you did not help to fill up this Number , p. 59 — The whole Innumerable Company of Saints shall attend Christ in white shining Garments , with Bodies like unto Christ , more Beautiful and Glorious then the most spendid Attire can make them , pag. 66. — The Accusers of , and Witnesses against the Wicked , they will be , 1. God. 2. Men. 3. Devils . 4. Themselves . First , God's Justice will arraign the Wicked before the Judgment-Seat of Christ , p. 78. — 2. God's Goodness , and Bounty and Patience will accuse them — 3. God's Omniscience will be a Wit●… ness against the VVicked at the Day of Judgment , pag. 79. — 1. Ministers will be the Accusers and VVitnesses against the VVicked , p 80. — 2. The Godly Friends of the VVicked will be their Accusers , and VVitnesses against them — 1. The Believing Husband will then accuse and witness against his Unbelieving VVife , pag 83. — 2. The Believing Wife will then accuse her Unbelieving Hu●…band , p. 84. — 3. Believing Parents will VVitness against their Ungodly Children , p. 85. — 2. The Ungodly Friends and Companions of the VVicked will at that Day be their Accusers , and witness against them — 3. Devils will be the Accusers and VVitnesses against the VVicked , p. 86. — 4. The VVicked will be accused by themselves , their own Thoughts shall accuse them in the Day when God shall judge the Secrets of Men by Jesus Christ ; their own Consciences will accuse them , and be as a Thousand Witnesses against them : They will find all their Sins registered in that Book ; and that Book will then be opened ; and they will not be able to deny one word of what they shall find there recorded — Concerning the Conviction — Suppose that this very Day were the Day of Judgment , and in this very Church were the Judgment-Seat ; that here were a great white Throne , and the Lord Jesus Christ sitting upon it in his Glory , with Millions of Holy Angels about him , and all the Saints in white at his Right Hand ; and on his Left , all the VVicked gathered together into one Body , as it will be at the Last Day ; And the Judge should cry with a loud Voice , Bring the Prisoners to the Bar , Bring the Sinners to Judgment , p. 87. and so summon and convict particular Sinners ; 1. Come forth all ye Ignorant Persons , who have not known the Father , nor me , nor the Mysteries of Salvation ; who lived in Darkness , and loved Darkness , and hated the Light , le●…t your Deeds should hereby have been reproved — had you an Ear , and yet not hear , so as to learn ? Had you an Eye , and yet not see , so as to understand ? And if you were Naturally Blind , had not I Eye-salve ? Could not I have opened your Eyes ? was I not willing * ? Did I not stand in the Gates to call upon you ? How long ye Simple Ones will you love Simplicity , and Fools ha●…e Knowledge ? Turn unto me , and I will pour out my Spirit upon you , and make known my VVords unto you ? Have you neglected me through Ignorance ? Is not your Fault double , because you have neglected Knowledge too ? Did not you hate Knowledge , and therefore disregard●… ? Did not you love Sin , and therefore shunned the Light * which would have discovered it , and disturbed you in your wicked Courses ? Have you liked Darkness so well ? and is it not 〈◊〉 then that you should go to the Place where there is Blackness of Darkness forever ? TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . 2. Come forth all ye Sloathful & Unprofitable Persons ; Had not ye Talents committed to you for my Use and Service ? and what have ye done with them ? did you bury them in the Earth , * p. 88. 89. Did not Hell gape for you long ago , and Devils long for this time , when you should be delivered into their Powers ? TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . 3. Come forth all that have neglected Family-VVorship , and never sought after God in your closets , p. 90. If you had not Ability to Pray at first with others , might not you have attained it , had you used to Pray by your selves : VVas it Curiosity and Elegancy of VVords , that God so much looked for ? Would not Sighs and Groans have been understood ? p. 91. TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . 4. Come forth all ye Sabbath-Breakers , you that have spent the Day in Sleeping , in Eating and Drinking to Excess , who instead of Holy Meditations have been thinking and contriving your worldly Business , instead of Religious Conferences , p. 93. TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . 5. Come forth all ye Swearers , and Prophaners of the Name of God , p. 94. TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . — 6. Come forth all ye Scoffers at Religion , and the zealous Professors thereof , pag. 95. TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . — 7. Come forth all ye Persecutors of my Disciples , pag. 96. TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . — 8. Come forth all ye Intemperate and Liscentious Persons , p. 97. Come forth all ye 〈◊〉 , pag. 98. Come forth ye Drunkards , pag. 99. TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . — 9. Come forth all ye Adulterers : Come forth all Covetous Persons whose Treasure and Heart , and Hope , and Confidence hath been in Earthly things , who have made the VVorld your God , p. 100. TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . — 10. Come forth all ye Unmerciful Persons , p. 101. TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . — 11. Come forth all ye Unrighteous Persons , who have wronged Widdows and Orphants ; who have over-reached your Neighbours in your Dealings ; who have heaped an Estate together by Unrighteous Practices , who have squeezed and oppressed the Poor , * TAKE THEM DLVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . 12. Come forth ye Lyars ; you who have taught and accustomed your selves to this Sin , pag. 103. TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . — 13. Come forth all ye Slanderers and Backbiters , p. 104. TAKE THEM DEVILS , BIND THEM HAND AND FOOT . 14. Come forth all ye Proud and Ambitious Persons , pag. 105. Take them Devils , Bind them Hand and Foot. — 15. Come forth all ye Envious and Malicious Persons , p. 106. Take them Devils . — 16. Come forth all ye Wrathful and Contentious Persons ; Take them Devils . — 17. Come forth all ye Civil and Moral * Persons , p. 108. Take them Devils . — 18. Come forth all ye Hypocrites , p. 110. Take them Devils . 19. Come forth all ye Backsliders and Apostates from me and my Wayes ; You that turned back to Wayes of Prophaneness , and open Wickedness , after some time of Profession , p. 111. Take them Devils . — 20. Come forth all ye Impenitent Persons and Unbelievers , p. 114. Take them Devils , pag. 115. — And when the Sentence is pronounced by the Judge upon the Wicked , O what direful Shreeks will they give forth With what Horror will they cry out , How shall we be able to endure the Devouring Flames , and Everlasting Burnings of Hell ? p. 117. The Torment of the Bodies of the VVicked will be dreadful , through the Sence of the Fire which will be kindled about them , and burn more horribly then London's Fire did , when it had got into the Heart of the City : Their Torment will be greater then if scalding Lead ( p. 135. ) were poured into their Bowels ; then if they were torn in pieces with wild Horses ; then if their Breasts were rip●…up , and their Hearts were pluckt out with Burning Pincers ; it will be worse then if they were cast into a Caldron of Boiling Pitch or Lead ; or put into Phalaris Bull , or Nebuchadnezar's Fiery Furnace , p. 136. and every Member of the Bodies of the Wicked will be Tormented : O how will their Eyes glaze ? their Tongues roar ? * their Hands and Feet fry ? their Flesh roast ? No Part will be free from the Devouring Flames of this Horrible Burning Fire , p. 137. Something for the SPIRITUALITY OF THE RESURRECTION , Being some Passages touching the NATURE of the BODY OF CHRIST After his RESURRECTION and ASCENSION ; ( Whose Glorious Body ours shall Resemble . ) Out of H. Moor's Search into the Nature of a Glorified Body , Apol. Chap. 3. ( pag. 494. of his Modest Enquiry into the Mystery of Iniquity . ) The CONTENTS . That it is a Heavenly Body of an Angelical Property , a Spiritual Body , a Celestial Body : That the Heavenliness of the Glorified Body imports the Brightness and Splendor thereof : That the Lucidity of these Bodies is also testified by Ancient Fathers : he forbears to affirm it to consist of Terrestrial Flesh and Bones ; but admits of Celestial and Spiritual Flesh and Bones , confessing to Paul's Enarration of the Mystery of the Resurrection , 1 Cor. 15. IN his Answer touching the Lucidity of Christ's Body after his Ascension , he saith , The Soul may even enjoy her self , out of her Terrestrial Body . That the Glorified Body is Organized , which he calleth Organized Light. That if the Objecter understand Terrestrial Flesh and Bones , is it a Fault to deny it ? That the Body of Christ in Heaven is not Terrestrial Flesh and Bones , but of a more refined Nature ; for the Apostle saith expresly , That Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , 1 Cor. 15. 50. That according to Testimony in Scripture . we shall find , that a Glorified Body , or that Body wherewith they shall be rewarded , who shall attain to that blessed Resurrection , which is the most precious Hope of all true Christians , may be dignified with these three Titles , Angelical , Spiritual , and Celestial : It is an Angelical Body , because the Sons of the Resurrection are said to be in every actual Respect , that tends to any real Perfection or Happiness , equal unto Angels , Luk●… 20. 36. ( viz. ) not only in that thing of Immortality , but the Sons of the Resurrection are absolutely in all such actual Respects ( as above intimated ) equal to the Angels : nor can the Condition of the Bodies be left out as touching the Nature and Glory of them ; but a Son of the Resurrection , and an Angel must be in every such Regard all one ; our Saviour seems plainly to assert so much . That those that are once the Sons of the Resurrection , plainly become Angels thereby — for they were Sons of God in a moral or spiritual Sense before . It will conduce something to the better understanding of the Nature of a Glorified Body , if we make search into Scripture , what the Nature of the Angelical Bodies is ; it is said , Psal. 104. Who maketh his 〈◊〉 Spirus , and 〈◊〉 Ministers a Flame of Fire : Upon which Text Grot●…s doth freely and truly ( I think ) not unscilfuly comment after this manner , Esse Angelis corpora , sed subtilissima , non Pythagorae tantum & Platonis schola sensit , sed & Judaei & veteres Christians , &c. That the Fathers were of this Opinion , Agrippa in his Occulta Philosophia hath also noted . That there are many Instances how Igneous and Lucid they , namely , the Bodies of the Angels , are , with which the best of them are invested , as truly that of Exod. 3. 2. Acts 7. 30. which answers well to that of Hebr. 1. 7. The Bodies of the more Glorious Angels are Igneous and Lacid . That also is a remarkable Example of the Lucidity of the Bodies of Angels , which we have Acts 12. where , while Peter was sleeping betwixt two Souldiers in the Prison , bound in Chains , the Angel of the Lord is said to come upon him , and a Light to shine in the Prison , &c. I will add one Instance more , which is , Dan. 10. 5. where the Angel that instructed Daniel , is thus described ; Then I lifted up mine Eyes , and looked , and behold a certain Man cloathed in Linnen , whose Loins were girded with fine Gold of Ophaz ; his Body was also like Beryl , and his Face as the Appearance of Lightening , and his Eyes as Lamps of Fire , &c. This Appearance certainly of this Angelical Shape is Fiery , Lucid and Glorious : It is manifest that they are very Luminous and Glorious . Whoever is invested with such a Body , as is reserved for the Sons of the Resurrection , will be , if he please to shew himself thus Lucid and Glorious ; of which I shall want no more Examples then that one of our Saviour Christ's Body ; for all ours , at the Resurrection , are to be made like to his Glorious Body ; and how Lucid and Angelical his Body was after his Ascension into Heaven , may appear from Apocal. 1. 13. where one like unto the Son of Man , is said to be cloathed with a Garment down to the Foot , and girt about the Paps with a Colden Girdle ; his Head and his Fair to be white , like Wool , as white as Snow ; that his Eyes as a Flame of Fire , and his Feet like unto fine Brass , as if they were burning in a Furnace ; and his Voice as the Sound of many VVaters ; a sharp Two-edged Sword came out of his Mouth ; and his Countenance was as the Sun , shining in his strength . This Body , I think , is sufficiently Lucid , and expresly and almost exactly conformable to that of the Angel which appeared to Daniel , as any one may observe , that listeth to compare them . The like Appearance of our Saviour se●…meth to be also , Apocal. 10. where an Angel is said to be cloathed with a Cloud , with a Rain-Bow on his Head , and his Face to be as the Sun , &c. I will add his Appearing to an out of the Heavens , as he was going to Damascus , Acts 9. that suddenly there shined round about him a Light from Heaven , &c. above the Brightness of the Sun , Chap. 22. 6. & 26. 13. Which again doth not only assure the Reality , but the exceeding great Splendor of the Corporeal Presence of Christ ; which is also agreeable to that in Apocal. And his Countenance was as the Sun shining in his Strength . Out of all which , I hope , it is plain enough , that as our Saviour hath said , That the Sons of the Resurrection do become i●…so facto Angels in Condition , as well for the Splendour and Constitution of their Body , as their Immortality . The Body of our Saviour , after his Refurrection , being so accurately answerable in Light and Glory to the most illustrious Appearances of Angels , in either the Old or New Testament ; and this alone , one would think , might be sufficient to assure us of the Lucidity or Luminosity of the Body of Christ , as also of all our Resurrection-Bodies . For the Spirituality of this Body , see 1 Cor. 15. 44. It is sown a natural Body , it is raised a spiritual Body ; there is a natural Body , and there is a spiritual Body , &c. I think it is most reasonable to understand the Resurrection-Body to be called Spiritual , not for that it is actuated by a Spirit ( for the Soul is a Spirit , that actuates the natural Body ) but for that the Body it self is become spiritual ; which I must confess , Calvin seems abhorrent from , but meerly out of his Ignorance in Philosophy ; for he reprehends those , qui substantiam corporis putant fore spiritualem , &c. Calvin seems to be afraid of the Opinion of the Body being spiritual , as implying a substantial Change , &c. There is not any Inconvenience to admit , that the Resurrection●… Body is a spiritual Body , that is to say , that the Contexture of it is of more subtil Parts then those that constitute the Earthly Bodies , pag. 498. [ And so he distinguishes between that Terrestrial Statue , or Body that Adam had , and the Spiritual Bodies of those that are made conformable to the last Adam , and to his Glorious Condition . ] Such as are not of a stupid and Statue-like Condition of themselves , but of such a Nature as hath an Activity in it self , and doth most wonderfully contribute to the most lively and most divine and enlarged vitall Operations of the Soul. ●… [ In this Manner hath he g●…ven his Distinction upon the Words , It is sown a Natural ( or Animal ) Body , it is raised a Spiritual Body . ] The Resurrection Body is Heavenly or Celestial ; as the first Man is of the Earth , Earthly ; the second Man is the Lord from Heaven : as is the Earthly , such are they that are Earthly ; and as is the Heavenly , such are they also that are Heavenly ; and as we have born the Image of the Earthly , we shall also bear the Image of the Heavenly : And then it follows , But this I must tell you , Brethren , That Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God — not that they shall only have Heavenly Bodies in a moral Sense or spiritual Meaning ; Bodies in which they shall be Heavenly-minded [ For such Slips as these , and dilute Sences , are very Dangerous , &c. ] but that they shall have an Heavenly Body in that Sense that Adam had an Earthly , which was not called an Earthly Body , for that he was Earthly-minded in it , but because his Body was of an Earthly Substance . Really and Physically Heavenly , not only Morally ; we shall be such in our Corporeal Constitution as our Celestial Lord is in his ; we shall bear his Image of Heavenly Glory and Brightness , not only in a Moral , but Natural Sense — nor can I imagine how Interpreters could be carried so forcibly off from so obvious and true a Sense , had it not been by reason of some false Pre-conceptions in Philosophy that had corrupted their Minds , and perverted their Judgments , namely , the Hypothesis of Ptolo●…e and Aristotle . By an Heavenly Body , I would understand an Angelical Body . That the Heavens are fluid , according to the most ancient and divinest Philosophy , as the very Notation of the Hebrew word intimates . Our Resurrection-Bodies will be furnished with the Seeds and Principles of Light and Splendour , and be more Beautiful , and more full of Lustre and Glory , then the Heavenly Matter it self ; as that part of the Earth , which becomes an humane Body , is more precious and beautiful then the Earth it self before it be modified into a Frame fit for the Functions of Life : So that whether we consider the Angelicalness ; Spirituality or Heavenliness of the Body at the Resurrection , there is all Reason to conclude , that it will be of a Bright and Lucid Nature ; which is not only agreeable to Reason and the Scripture , but also to the Sayings of the Fathers themselves , as S. H●…rom , S. Macariu●… , S. Ephrem , S. Austin , as you may see in Vossius , in his Theses de corpore glorioso . But nothing more express for our Purpose then that of S. Ephrem , in his Discourse of the Resurrection , viz. Justorum corpora septuplum supra solis 〈◊〉 radios . How Angelical , how Spiritual , how Heavenly or Celestial , how refulgently Bright and Glorious the Bodies of the Blessed are , &c. and more particularly the Body of our Saviour , that shone about Saint Paul , and Saint John , as the Sun in his Strength , & c ? The first Man is of the Earth , Earthly ; the second Man , that is , the Lord Jesus , the Heavenly Man , from Heaven : And who should be intirely Heavenly if not He ? And what has Earth to do to either descend from Heaven , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? or what Body more radient or refulgent then the Sun in his greatest Brightness can be vitally Organized , but it must be of an Heavenly Nature indeed ? We have all Reason in the World to conclude the Body of our Saviour intirely Cele ial . T●…e Terrestrial Modifications of his Body were changed — all cloggings thereof were quel'd and abolish'd . 〈◊〉 and Blood cannot i 〈◊〉 the Kingdom of God ; and I think there is the ame Reason of Flesh and Bones , viz. I understand natural Flesh and Bones not glorified . I demand by what Creed t●…at hath the ●…ssent of the Universal Church , are we required to believe , that the Glorified Body of Christ consisteth of Flesh , Blood and Bones ? It ●…eming so contradictious to the exprestwords of the Apostle , as well as uniuitable to the Nature of the Peavens , which the Philosophers new adayes conclude to be universally fl●…d . [ He admits of a Body of Flesh and 〈◊〉 , provided they be Celestial and Spiritual Flesh and Bones , p. 503. ] If any mortal could get within this so refulgent Orb of Glory and Bright●…ss , and approach so near as to see the Fraim and Feature of ●…o Divine a Body no Heart could escape from being struck into a 〈◊〉 at the Sight of so over-coming a Beauty and Majesty , nor the Soul of the Beholder from being carried quite away in an extatick Fit of Love and Joy , and transporting Admiration , p. 503. Touching the Sameness of the Body . The Atheist makes a fresh Assault from the sense of the word Resurrectio , as it is imply'd the rising again of the very same numerical Body , in the strictest Scholastick Sense . To which is answered , first , That 〈◊〉 in Latin implies no such thing necessarily ; but that as a City or Temple , suppose being razed to the Ground , and from the very Foundations — is truly laid to be Rebuilt , and so is both deemed & called the same Temple and City again , though n●…t a Stone were used of the former Structure ; provided only , that they be rebuilt upon the same Ground — though the ●…ame numerical Matter were not congested together to make the same Body at the Resurrection , the stable Per●…onality being in the Soul , &c. [ He placeth the Samene●…s of the Body that shall be , upon its vital Union with the Soul , and faith ] T●…at Resurrectio is to be interpreted according to the Latitude of the Original to which it answers , namely , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which signifie only Vivification , or Erection into Life : but then considering it is spoken of them that have in some sense ceased to be alive , that in that sense it signifies Revivification , whence the Atheists Objection from the word Resurrectio , is utterly defeated , p. 506. The Scholastick State of the Resurrection is described , namely , That we shall have the same Numerical Bodies 〈◊〉 which we lived here on Earth ; and that these very Bod●…es , the Moulds being turned aside , shall start out of the Grave : To which I presently subjoyn , This D●…ctrine the Atheist very dearly hugs , as a Pledge in his bold Conce●… of the Falsness and Vanity of all the other Articles of Religion . But for those that take any Pleasure , or find any Ease or Satisfaction of Mind in the Conclusions or P●…raseologies of the School-Divines , touching this Point , they are left free to enjoy their own Apprehensions , and may , if they please , either fancy it necessary , that all Bodies should rise out of the Ground , the Moulds being cast aside ; or else , conceive only that God will by his Omnipotency , gather all the Particles of our Bodies , whether flying in the Air , or s●…ting in the Water , and frame them together on the Surface of the Earth , &c , concerning such things they may vary their Fancies as they plea●…e , 〈◊〉 p 508. To the second Objection he saith , I answer farther as concerning the Scripture it self ; That I dare challenge him o produce any place of Scripture , out of which he can make it appear , that the Mystery of the Resurrection implies a Resuscitation of the same * Numerical Body . The most pregnant of all is , Job 19. which later Interpreters are now so wise as not to understand at all of the Resurrection : The 1 Cor. 15. that Chapter is so far from asserting this Curiosity , that it plainly sayes , it is not the same Body ; but that as God gives to the Blades of Corn Grains quite distinct from that which wa●… sown , so at the Resurrection he will give the Soul a Body quite different from that which was buried , as different as a Spiritual Body is from a Natural Body , or an Heavenly from an Earthly , p. 508 , 509. A POST SCRIPT By way of Animad version and Counsel . SErious and impartial Reader , I have collected these Passages that thou mayst not only see how some of these learned Men differ about this mysterious and 〈◊〉 Point ; but also how unreasonable it is for any of them to be 〈◊〉 this or the like unlearned 〈◊〉 upon us ( viz. ) How , and with what Body are the Dead raised , & c ? or to seek Occasions to vilifie us about this Point which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are not only confounded , but liable to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Question is not only unlearned , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 unnecessary unto Salvation ; it is not necessary that 〈◊〉 should imagine 〈◊〉 they shall be cloathed , or 〈◊〉 with Bodies in Heaven ; but to enquire the Way 〈◊〉 , that they may walk in it , and be solicitous to know that Power and inward Operation , whereby they may be made Sons of God , and attain to the Resurrection of the Dead , as being Children of God , and of the Resurrection . If men walk in the True Light , and so truly serve and please God on Earth , they shall not need to 〈◊〉 or dispute about their future Beings in Heaven ; Their Business is , to get thither , and 〈◊〉 will well accommodate them there : Men ought not to be too curious and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Matters beyond their reach , as to the Manner of their future Beings , or how they shall be reserved for Eternal Rewards . There are two things tend to Atheism , or to make men Atheists ( viz. ) First , Some Mens Curiosity , in studying and searching into Matters and Things beyond their Capacities and Reason ( being things of another 〈◊〉 and Principle then they are in . ) Secondly , Other Mens Self Confidence in asserting things contrary to Reason and manifest Experience ; and in particular , in their affirming , that these self-same Terrestrial Bodies of Flesh , Blood and Bones , shall be made Spiritual , Immortal and Incorruptible , and yet the same Matter and Substance as now . It is true , that Henry Moor had finer and more 〈◊〉 Notions about the Resurrection then many other learned men , and aimed at the Truth and Spirituality thereof , from the Visions of the Holy Men recorded in the Scriptures ; but if any should soar after those Notions , how fine , thin , sublime , or desirable soever they seem to be to that Aspiring Mind that desireth to feed upon the Tree of Knowledge , such are in Danger both to fall 〈◊〉 and miss of the Fruit of the Tree of Life , and of the Resurrection of the Just. Therefore , Oh breathing Souls , retire , and 〈◊〉 down to the holy Principle of Light and Life in your selves , so as that may both rend the Vail of Darkness , open you , and shew it self in its own Purity , Vertue and Efficacy unto you , that thereby you may know Christ revealed in you to be your Resurrection and Life , your Hope of Glory and Everlasting Reward , your Strength , Nourishment and Souls Satisfaction ; For this is Life Eternal , to know God , and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent ; that in him each of you may arise to Righteousness and Peace here , and to Glory hereafter : And though it appear not what you shall be , yet it is matter of Satisfaction , Stay and Comfort , that you have such Experience of the Love of God , as to be his Children , and to have his Witness and Testimony in you , That his Appearance and Work will be to your Glory and future Felicity in Immortality , where we shall have a Building of God , an House not made with Hands , eternal in the Heavens ; for in this we groan earnestly , &c. that Mortality might be swallowed up of Life : Now , he that hath wrought us for the self-same thing , is God , who also hath given unto us the Earnest of the Spirit , Glorified be his Name forever . George Whitehead . THE END . A Conclusive ADVERTISEMENT . Serious Reader , THe many Controvers●…s , the great 〈◊〉 of the Press , the 〈◊〉 Strivings of our Adversaries , and their 〈◊〉 to prejudice and divert the Minds of People with their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and perverse Gain-sayings , from the Reception of Truth ( which required 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and speedy Answers ) have occasioned the long Delay of publishing this Book after it was writ ; but I hope it will not be unseasonable at length , but of Service to many , for the Information of such honest Minds as sincerely seek to understand the Truth about those principal Matters of 〈◊〉 between us and our present Opposers , herein unfolded . And if the Manner or Method of Wording any Passages of Reprehension , &c. seems too Harsh or Sharp in the Eye of any , who have not known , 〈◊〉 been concerned ( as we are ) with such unplacable Adversaries , let not this disgust or 〈◊〉 them from eying the Light and Manifestation of Truth aim'd at , really intended , and seriously contended for in the Matter and Substance of these 〈◊〉 ; Considering also ( in the reading ) the reprovable Occasions given us by those 〈◊〉 Spirits we have to deal withal , our Zeal being for the Truth as made known to us , and that in Uprightness and Simplicity of Heart to God , and Love to Souls , we have taken this Pains , with much more : And we must speak and write 〈◊〉 according to our several Gifts , and as we see Occasion , as they naturally 〈◊〉 and spring , even in the Simplicity of Truth received ; not as Men - 〈◊〉 , nor to gratifie Men's Curious Fancies and Affections ; but as those that must give Account unto GOD , whose we are . Upon perusal of the Answers here 〈◊〉 , I 〈◊〉 meet to give a Hint of these two Passages ; to prevent some Objection , viz 〈◊〉 in pag. 112. there is a Question upon John 12. 35. which is , Did not Jesus say , There is yet a little Light IN YOU ? Having made further 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it , I find only in the Old Latin Translation these words , Dixit ergo eis Jesus , adhuc modieum Lumen IN VOBIS est : And whether this might not be 〈◊〉 out of some very ancient Greek Copy not come to our 〈◊〉 , is to be 〈◊〉 , as being supposed by some : However , it is a Truth , 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 that was with them , was also IN them ; To be with them , doth not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in them . And whereas in pag. 305. lin . 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ 〈◊〉 are to dye ] these Words of S. S' s should have been inserted , viz. [ Another 〈◊〉 say to that Company , Though you are not able to run as 〈◊〉 as 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 as strongly ; yet if you do your best Endeavour , and hold out , you are to 〈◊〉 the rich Inheritance : I ask , which of 〈◊〉 two did speak to the 〈◊〉 of their Companies ? ] 〈◊〉 he renders the Scripture-Minister as 〈◊〉 in Opposition to the Quaker : How this Passage 〈◊〉 omitted , I know not ; for I am 〈◊〉 it was intended , being spoaken to in my Answer , as 〈◊〉 , pag. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 306. And as for the Errors or Defects , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Press , through any Inadvertency or much Business , the Reader is desired to correct , or at least , not to reflect upon the Author therein ; seeing the most material Faults are noted in the following Errata , and how to be Corrected in the 〈◊〉 . ERRATA TO THE SECOND PART . HEre are some of the most material Faults escaped the Press , which the honest serious Reader is desired to correct as 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . read obvious to the Sight . p. 8. l. 30. for us read as . p. 14. l. 23 for filth . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 15 l. 1. r. obliterated p. 19. l. 21. for Saint r. Saints . p. 29. l. 〈◊〉 . for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 30. l. 4. r. Manifestation or Principle . l. 19 r that the Light is Christ. p 32 l. 10. for good read Goodness . p. 39. l. 15. r. comparing it ( as to its Work ) pag , 45 l. 29 f. effect r. affect . p. 48. l. 3 for which r. the. p. 54 l. 24 f principle r. principal . pages 66 , 67 , 68. in the Titlo blot out [ Offices 〈◊〉 ] p. 72 l. 27. 〈◊〉 meerly as a 〈◊〉 without . p. 75. l. 22. 〈◊〉 spiritual known r. spiritually 〈◊〉 . p. 77. l. 35 r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p 80. l. 33. f. to be r. will be . p. 84. line last de●…e lux . p. 105. l. 9. f Christ saying r. that saying . p. 132. l 6. r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 133 l. 16 for he r they . p. 142. l. 5. r. strike at . p. 150. l. 22. f Body r. the Body . p. 151. blot out [ Body of ] in the 〈◊〉 . p. 152. l. 31. r. on thy . p. 162. l. 35. r. and assertion . p. 177. l 28. f. which r. 〈◊〉 . p. 178. l. 27. r. Impatiency in her . p. 183. l. 32. dele of . p. 189 l. 17. f. remiss r. 〈◊〉 . p. 195. l. 25. f. seem r. smell . p. 198. l. 37. f. my r. his . 40 f them r him . p. 200. l. 18. r. but judge . p. 202. l. 40. after [ before Faith ] add or 〈◊〉 in the State of Unbelief p 213. l. 8. f. God r. Good. p. 217. l. 24. f. yet thereto r whereto p. 231. l. 23. f. our r. his . p. 233. l. 20. r. as he saith . p. 235. in the 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 4. for saying read who said p. 242. l. 28. f. a great 〈◊〉 r. dispensing . page 280. l. 28. the full Stop or Breach should be placed after [ 〈◊〉 ] p. 288. l. 22. f. it r in p. 290. 〈◊〉 . 33. after [ impatiency ] add [ in a time of 〈◊〉 ] p 305. 〈◊〉 . 2. after ( incourazement ) add ( against us ) p. 308. l. 〈◊〉 . read who knew . p. 310. l. 20. read Gell's . p. 323. l 〈◊〉 . read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l. 42. for do read op . p. 326. 〈◊〉 37. read Philetus . l. 38. read compleated after page 334. for 135 read 335 , and so correct them to the end . page 341. l. 19 read he being out of his perplexed . p. 348. l. 3 for their read the. l. 13 , 14. read ( in Union of Spirit , and with the Spirits of all just Men ) within a Paren : hesis . pag. 354. l. 22. f. the r. they p. 357. l. 〈◊〉 . for set read sit . p. 363. l. 48. for fiercerly read fiercely . There are also divers Faults and 〈◊〉 in Letters and Points of less moment , which may be understood by the Sense of the Matter . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A54120-e890 Read Euseb. Evag. Socr. Ruffin . Coun. Trent . Simps . Full. Perr . Bak. Dan. Trus. Daval . Clark. Morl. Milt . &c. See Book of Mar. Luth. contr . Ecc. Zuing. Calv. Beza &c. Hayl . of Reform . Cambd. Life of Q. E. Rush. Hist. Collect. Cambd. Hist : Wars of Engl. The King's Return . See Annab . Decl. Notes for div A54120-e8170 As T. Hicks hath done . Pag. 66. Pag. 72. Pag. 73. Pag. 2. Pag. 13 , 14 , 15 , 20 , 25 , 44 , 45 , 49 , 54 , 66 , 76. Jer. 20. 7. Pag. 2. * That is the Cause . Pag. 8 , 9. Rom. 2. John 12. 16. Pag. 14. Ephes. 5. 8. Job 32. 8. John 8. 12. Joh. 12. 36 , 46. Rom. 1. Ephes. 5. John 1. John 1. 5. Rom. 13. 12 , 13 , 14. 2 Cor. 6. 14. 1 John 1. 5 , 6 , 7. Rev. 22. 4. 5. Gal. 4. 16. Tit. 2. John 14. 6. John 1. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 9. 1 Cor. 15. 45 , 47 , & 1. 24. 1 Joh. 2. 27. & 5. 6 , 7 , 8. John 6. 51 , 52 , 53. Gen. 1. 27. Deut. 30. 11. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. 2 Sam. 22. 29. Job 24. 13. Job 25. 3. Job 29. 3. Psal. 27. 1. Psal. 118. 27 119. 105 , 102. Prov. 4. 18. * T. Hicks . Psal. 50. 19 , 20 , 21. Psal. 94. 4. Amos 4. 13. Psal. 139. 7. Vers. 1 , 2 , 3. Acts. 20. 2 Cor. 6. 16. Acts 7. 48. 49. 50 , 51. Neh. 9. 20. Genes . 6. 3. Job 24. 9. 13. * Neither is it our Construction only , but the Judgment of Men fam'd in the World , for their Exactness in the Original Text , or Letter of the Scripture . They interpret it , to be the Light of the Divine Wisdom , the Fountain of Light , yea , God himself : That Rebelling against the Light , is against God. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Light of Israel ; alluding to the Psalmist , The Lord is my Light and my Salvation . Nay , to the Light mentioned by the Apostle Paul , Ye , who were sometimes Darkness , are now Light in the Lo●…d . And that very Light , which is said to have sprung up to them that sate in Darkness , which is the Light of Truth ( and by our Adversaries , allow'd to be the Evangelical ; and spoke of Christ's Manifestation ) Also , that the Wayes of Light , are Light , leading to the Light it self , which Wicked Men turn from , and spurn at . That this is the Light , which there is none , but it rises upon , whereby to give them true sight of themselves . See Munsterus , Vatablus , Clarius , Castellio on the 17th Verse , but especially Drusius and Codurcus , who say , All Men partake of that Light , and that it is sufficient to Manifest and Drive away the Darkness of Error ; and that it is the Light of Life ; Nay , Codurcus calls it , an Evangelical Principle , & seems to explain his Mind by a Quotation of the Evangelist's words , John 19. That was the True Light , that inlightneth all Mankind coming into the World. Munster . Vatabl. Clar. Castel . Drus. & Codurc . Crit. in 24 , 25. Chap. Ver. 13 , & 3. 〈◊〉 , P. 3283. to 3308. Chap. 25. 3. Notes for div A54120-e16560 Mat. 13. 1 , to 10. Vers. 19. Mat. 25. 14 ; to 34. John 3. 20. Ephes. 5. 13. Rom. 1. 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21 , 28. Chap. 2. 8. Rom. 2. 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. Eccles. 12 , 13 , 14. Gen. 20. 4. & 21. 22. 2 Chron 36. 23. Ezra 1. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 13. & 6. 3 , 12. Dan. 6. 26 , 27. Notes for div A54120-e19620 Clem. Alex. Strom. L. 5. He stretched-out his Hand over the Sea , Isa. 23. 11. — Sing Praises unto the Lord , to Him that Rideth upon the Heavens of Heavens , Psal. 68. 33. — For the Lord your God , he is God in Heaven above , and in the Earth beneath , Josh. 2. 11. Rev. 22. 13. God is God of the Living , and not of the Dead , Mat. 22. 32. — Now unto the King Eternal , Immortal , Invisible , the Only Wise God , be Honour and Glory forever and ever , Amen , 1 Tim. 1. 17. 1 Tim. 6. 16. — Thy Throne , O God , is forever and ever , Psal. 45. 6. Clem. Alex. Strom. L. 5. Clem. Alex. Strom. L. 5. Thou art Glorious in Holiness , Exod. 15. 4. — God had Glory before the World began , John 17. 5. — The Lord Searcheth the Heart , and Tryeth the Reins , Psalm . 7. 9. — And tell unto Man his Thoughts , Amos 4. 13 — God is from Everlasting to Everlasting , God , Psalm . 90. 2. — Without Beginning of Days , or End of Life , Heb. 7. 3. * DeLeg . 2. I alone am God , and besides Me there is not another . There is none other but One God , 1 Cor. 8. 5. Clem. Alex. Strom. L. 5. No Man has seen God at any time , 1 John 4. 12. — Heaven is my Throne , Acts 7. 49. — The Lord's Throne is in Heaven , Psalm . 11. 4. And hear thou in Heaven , thy Dwelling-Place , 1 King. 8. 30. Jamblich . Thou must believe that God is ; and that he is a Rewarder of them that fear him , Hebr. 11. 6. — For thine is the Kingdom , 1 Chron. 29. 11. Mat. 6. 13. — Thou art Lord of Heaven and Earth , Acts 17. 24 — And the Government shall be upon his Shoulders , Isa. 9. 6 — Again , God is Light , and in him is no Darkness at all , John 1. 5 — I am the Way , the Truth and the Life , John 14. 6 — God is all , above all , and in all , Ephes. 4. 6. Just. Mart. A God nigh at hand , Acts 17. 27. Jer , 23. 23 — One God , who is above all , through all , and in all , Ephes. 4. 6 — God is Light ; and upon whom hath not his Light arisen ? 1 John 1. 5. Job 25. 3 — One God and Father of all , 1 Cor. 8. 6 — Now to the King Eternal , Immortal , Invisible , the Only Wise God be Glory , &c. 1 Tim. 1. 17. The Heaven of Heavens cannot contain Thee . 1 Kings 8. 27. 2 Chron. 6. 18 — What House will ye build me ? Acts 7. 49 — God dwells in the Light , 1 Tim. 6. 16 — To whom will ye liken God ? what Likeness will ye compare unto Him ? Isa. 40. 18 , 25 — God is a Spirit , John 4. 24. Clem. Alex. Strom. L. 2. Lact. Fals. Rel. 1. 5. Cic. de Nat. Deor. 1. But to us there is but One God , the Father of all , of whom are all things , 1 Cor. 8. 6. Where wast thou when I laid the Foundations of the Earth ? read on , Job 38. 4 — And the Earth was without Form : read the Chapter , in which is declared , God's Making and beautifying Heaven and Earth , and all Living Creatures therein , Gen. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. and so to the end . — Thou Lord madest the Heavens and the Earth , and all that in them is , Acts 4. 24. August . cir . Del. 8. Notes for div A54120-e23960 Tim. de De Anim. Mund. The Pure in heart shall see God , Mat. 5. 8. — He dwelleth in Immortality ; no Mortal Eye can approach or behold him , 1 Tim. 1. 16. One Thing have I desired of Thee , O Lord , to behold the Beauty of the Lord , Psalm . 27. 4 — The Things of God knows no Man , but the Spirit of God ; but God hath Reveal'd them to us by his Spirit 1 Cor. 2. 10 , 11. & 1. 13. — Is Christ divided ? 1 Cor. 1. 13 — And I heard a great Voice saying , THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN. He that Overcometh shall Inherit all things : I will be his God , and he shall be my Son , Revel . 21. 3 , 7. Jambl. * Jamblich . * De Anim. Mund. In the Beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God , and the Word was God , John 1. 1. — The Word is nigh thee , in thy Heart and in thy Mouth , Rom. 10. 8. I dwell in the High and Holy Place , with him also that is of a Contrite and Humble Spirit , Isa. 57. 15. — Ye are the Temples of God , and that the Spirit of God dwells in you , 1 Cor. 2 16. — Whatever may be known of God is manifested within , for God shews it unto them , Rom. 1. 19. Valer. Max. 7. 2. Lay up Treasure in Heaven , where neither Moth nor Rust can Corrupt , nor Thief break through and Steal , Mat. 6. 20. — This Treasure hath God put into Earthen Vessels , 2 Cor. 4. 7. — Fear not , for the Lord thy God it is that doth go with thee ; he will not fail thee , nor forsake thee , Deut. 31. 6. — In all their Afflictions he was Afflicted , Isa. 63. 9 — . The Lord is a present Help in the time of Trouble , Psal. 46. 1. * Oedip. Tyr. Shall not the Uncircumcision that is by Nature , if it fulfil the Law , judge thee , who by the ●…etter and Circumcision dost transgress the Law. For he is not a Jew that is one Outward , implying such as keep the Law is one Inward , Rom. 2. 27 , 28. — And the Word of God ( nigh in the Heart ) shall abide forever , Isa. 40. 8. Clem. Alex. Strom. L. 5. Plutarch . de Gen. Socr. There is a Spirit in Man , but the Inspiration of the Almighty giveth Understanding . Job 32 8. 2 Tim. 2. 22 , 25. — For as many as are led by the Spirit of God , are the Children of God , Rom. 8. 14. * In phaed. God is Light 1 John 1. 5. — In thy Light 〈◊〉 we see Light , Psalm . 36. 10 — God is not far from every one of us ; for in him we live , move and have our ●…eing ; for we are also his Off-sping , as certain of your own Poets have said , Acts 17. 27 , 28. One of whom was Arabus , whom the Apostle quotes as speaking Truth , and imployes it against them , to prove a True God , and to introduce his Gospel ; which if it shewed their Apostacy , it also implies , that there had been Heathens , rightly apprehending of God ; else surely , the Apostle would never have cited the Poets Saying , for a Confirmation of his own Doctrine . * Enead . 1. cap. 1. For the Lord God is a Sun & a Shield : the Lord will give Grace and Glory : no good Thing will he withhold from them that trust in him , and walk uprightly , Psal. 84. 11 , 12. — For God hath shewed it unto them , Rom. 1. 19. Clem. Alex. Strom. L. 5. A Manifestation of the Spirit is given unto every one to profit withal , 1 Cor. 12. 7. — One God , and Father of all , who is above all , and through all . — The Lord is Good unto all , Psal. 145. 9. Leg. Alleg. L. 1. The Things of God knoweth no Man save the Spirit of God , 1 Cor. 2. 11. — I will put my Law in their Minds and write them in their Inward parts ; I will be their God , and they shall be my People , Heb. 8. 10 , 11. Plut. Dion . Prus. Because whatever may be known of God is manifest within ; for God hath shewed it unto them : but because they liked not to retain God in their Knowledge , God gave them up to vile Affections , Rom. 2. 19 , 26 , 28. Dis. lib. 1. cap. 14. O Lord , thou hast searched me , thou understandest my Thoughts afar off . Whither shall I go from thy Spirit , Psal. 139. 1 , 2 , 7. We have a more Sure Word of Prophesie , 2 Pet. 19. — The Lord hath shewedun to thee , O Man , what is Good , and what he doth require of thee , Micah 6. 8. — In him we Live , Move , and have our Being , Acts 17. 28. — Such as Men Sow , such shall they Reap , Gal. 6. 7. — That was the true Light , which Inlightneth all Mankind , John 1. 9. * Senec. Epist. 41. * De Benef. c. 17. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Behold , the Tabernacle of God is with Men , Rev 21. 3. — He that d●…clareth 〈◊〉 Man his Thoughts , the Lord , the God of Hosts is hi●… Name . Amos 4. 13. — W●…ite ye have the Light walk in the Light , that you may be the Children of the Light. God is Light , John 12. 26. 1 John 1. 5. * ●…pist 8. * Epist. 31. Notes for div A54120-e26880 * If Angry Tho. Hicks will please to inform himself of the Reasons that induced Justin to turn Christian , he will find the Light Within acknowledged to be the Efficient Cause thereof ; for it was the Principle of God in his Conscience that continually pleaded the Christians Cause within him , and who at last overcoming . Justin Believes in Christ , and Dyes for him too . Now what Disgrace is this to the Light Within ? Liv'd after Christ Ann. 123. 1543. years since . Apolog. Liv'd after Christ 190. Admon . ad Gent. Strom. L. 5. Clem. Alex. in Admon . ad Gent. Liv'd Ann. 195. Liv'd about Ann. 203. Liv'd about Ann. 315. De Cult . Ver. Lib. de Ira cap. 2. Liv'd about Ann. 325. Athanas. cont . Gent. Liv'd about Ann. 3 80. Liv'd about Ann. 393. Notes for div A54120-e28720 Liv'd about the Year of the World , 3313. before Christ , about 630. years which is 2330. years since . Thou therefore which teachest another , teachest thou not thy self ? Rom. 2. 21. Love thy Neighbour as thy self , I am the Lord , Levit. 19. 18. Finally Brethren , whatsoever things are True , whatsoever things are Honest , Just , Pure , Lovely , and of Good Report , think on these things , Phil. 4. 8. Stob. 28. * That 's more then Tho. Hicks seems to do . Liv'd at the same time . Laert. Lib. 1. c. 3. * Reader , this Reflection was not without Light , nor this Man void of a very Tender Conscience . The Gentiles , who had not a Law , became a Law unto themselves , doing the Things contained in the Law ; their Consciences bearing Witness , and their Thoughts the mean while Accusing or Excusing , Rom. 2. 14 , 15. To Depart from Iniquity is a good Understanding , Job 28. 28. And the Hypocrites Hope shall Perish , Job 8. 13. Why do you not rather take Wrong ? 1 Cor. 6. 7. Stob. 28. Reader , these weighty Sayings are very Scripture it self , and that as well of the New , as Old Testament ( so called ) especially where Christ saith , SWEAR NOT AT ALL : though spoke about 700 years before he came into the World. * As Tho. Hicks , John Bunion , J. Grigg , and other Railing ●…eparatists do the Quakers . * Which T. Hicks can't do , neither to his Wife , & Family at home , nor his Friends , much less other People abroad Stob. Serm. 80. Jamblich . Let us hear the Conclusion of the whole Matter : Fear God , and keep his Commandments ; for this is the whole Duty of Man , Eccles. 12. 13. Pure Religion and Undefiled is , to keep himself Unspotted from the World , Jam. 1. 27. In this sense I fear , we may say , that Thomas Hicks has no Light in him . Who when he was Reviled , Reviled not again , 1 Pet. 2. 23. Laert. Plat. Phaed. The Fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Wisdom , Psalm . 111. 10. He that will deny himself , let him take up his Cross , and follow me , Luk. 9. 23. Xen. Mem. 3. p. 780. Clem. Alex. Strom. L. 5. Stob. 218. Reader , These sententious Expressions to have every one of them a Scripture , would be tedious and superfluous ; for they are almost Word for Word Scripture it self , as who knoweth Scripture may plainly see . Xen. Mem. 4. p. 803. Id. Mem. 1. 722. 4. 804. Id. Mem. 3. So saith Christ , Mat. 7. 2. 62. 7. Ibid. Apolog. Libanius saith , Socrates considered The Pure in Heart shall see God , Mat. 5. 8. Clem. Alex. Str. 2. 417. Laert. Stob. 46. The Fruit of the Spirit is Peace , Gal. 5. 22. Acts 24. 16. But Godliness , with Content , is great Gain , 1 Tim. 6. 6. Stob. 48. Stob. 114. This answers T. Hicks's Challenge about the Light 's showing that State , if Christ had not said so . Liban . Ap : p. 644. Nothing they could do was able to draw him out of his Endeavours to detect the loose Comedians , that sought therefore his Ruin. 1 Pet. 3. 14. * The word Philosophy hath been otherwise appropriated since those days , as many other words have been ; for it then signified a Love of Wisdom given by Pythagoras , which Wisdom was the Way of Holy Living , not Vain and Untoward Contests about Inpracticable Things . Laert. & Suid. in vit . Antish . Ye are an Holy Nation , a Royal Priesthood , 1 Pet. 2. 9. — And you shall be Kings , and Raign , &c. Rev. 1. 6. — Blessed are they who hear the Word of God , and keep it , Luke 11. 28. — Where is the Wise ? where is the Scribe ? where is the Disputer of this World ? 1 Cor. 1. 20. Put on the Brest - Plate of Righteousness , Eph. 6 14. Stob. The Just shall live by Faith , Hab. 24. — Without Holiness no man shall see the Lord , Heb. 12. 14. They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their Strength , Isa. 40. 31. — The Secrets of the Lord are with them that fear him , Psal. 25. 14. Valer. Max. 2. 10. Cic. pro Bal. Laert. Mat. 5. 34. Cic. de Fin. 2. Rom. 2. 14 , 15. Laert. Ibid. Stob. The Fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Wisdom , Job 28. 28. Laert. The Rulers take Counsel together against the Lord , Psal. 2. 2. Stob. The Wisdom which is from above , is first Pure , then Peaceable , Jam. 3. 17. Laert. Id. Psal. 111. 9 , 10. Cic. Parad. Stob. Id. Theatr. cap. 3. 10. Be ye Holy , for I the Lord your God am Holy , Levit. 11. 44 , 45. Notes for div A54120-e33530 Plut. plac . 4. 7. Stob. Phys. Rev. 20. 12 , 13 , 14. Chap. 21. 7 , 8. Plat. phaed. 2 Cor. 5 8. * Ad Amph. Clem. Alex. Strom. l. 3. 2 Cor. 5. 8. Philip. 1. 21. Plat. Phaed. Eccles. 12. 7. Idem . The Sheep on the Right Hand , and the Go●…tes on the Lest , Mat. 25. 31 , 32 , 33. 1 Cor. 15. 28 , 29 , 30 , 31. Observe Socrates his Distinction betwixt being Dead & Departed . Acts 7. 60. H. Mor. Des. Phil. Cab. c. 3. Revel . Rev. 22. 5. Notes for div A54120-e35170 See Const. Orat. in Eus. Isa. 2. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. Isa. 7. vers . 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 25. Chap. 9 , & 10. 1 John 4. 5 , 6. Chap. 11. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. Jer. 23. Notes for div A54120-e37090 Isa. 1. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. Ezek. 18. 31 , 32. Notes for div A54120-e37640 Objection . Mat. 5. 27. 28. Notes for div A54120-e39060 Joh. 8. 56 , 57 , 58. Helv. Chron. Rom. 5. 9. Gal. 3. 16. Notes for div A54120-e40100 Joh. 14. 17. Notes for div A54120-e40880 Hos. 13. 4. Hebr. 10. John 6. 51 , 52. 53 , 54 , 62 , 63. Rom. 3. 25. Ephes , 1. 7. Hebr. 9. 14. Rom. 3 , 25. Hebr. 10. 5 , 7. 2 Cor. 3. 18. Notes for div A54120-e42700 Joh. 1. 9. Joh. 1. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 9. See Dial. pag. 3. 4. See Origen , Chrysostom , Greg Erasm Drus. Zeger . Cam. Grot. B. Sand. Dr. Ham. John 〈◊〉 . Notes for div A54120-e45910 Dial. pag. 2. 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 5. Rom. 〈◊〉 . Jam. 5. 6. 1 John 2. 15. 16. 1. Pet. 1. 18. Ephes. 5. 1 Joh. 1. 5 , 6. Jam. 3. 1 , 2 , 3. Notes for div A54120-e46980 T. Jenner . T. Tayler . J. Faldo . T. Hicks . H. Grigg . &c. Notes for div A54120-e48180 Mat. 11. 27. 1 Cor. 2. 11. Ephes. 5. 13. Rom. 1. 19. Mic. 5. 8. Jren. l. 2. c. 30. Tertul. con . Jud. p. 184. Quakerism a new nickname for old Christianity , p. 54. 55. Rom. 2. 14 , 15. Justin Martyr saith , That all are Christians who live with Christ , as Abraham and Elias ; and amongst the Greeks , as S●…crates , H●…raclitus , &c. See Scult●…tus on him , ●…ho also saith , That some at this day are of his Judgment , who have taught that Melchizedec●… , Abimel●…ch , Ruth , Rachab , the Queen of Sheba , Hiram of Tyre , Naaman t●…e Syrian , and the City o●… Ninive , are in the Catalogue of Christians . Eusebius Pamph. in his Ecclesiastical History , saith , That Abraham and the ancient Fathers were Christians : And defines a Christian to be , one that by the Knowledge and Doctrine of Christ ●…xcels in Moderation of Mind , in Righteousness and Continency of Life , and Strength of Vertue & Godliness towards one only God ; see Scultetus on him . Clemens Alexandrinus saith , The Law of Nature and of Discipline is one . And Moses seems , to call the Lord the Covenant : For he had said before , the Covenant was not to be sought in Scripture ; for that is the Covenant , which God , the Cause of all , setteth , whence his Name in Greek is derived . And in the Preaching of Peter , thou mayest find the Lord called the Word or Reason , and the Law. See his 1 Book Strom at the end . And before pag. 353. he saith , The Law and the Gospel is the Operation of one ●…ord who is the Vertue & Wisdom of God : And the Fear which the Law had bred , is mereiful to Salvation : And the Fear of the Lord is the Beginning of VVisdom . That she ( that is , VVisdom ) that administreth Providence , is Mistress and Good ; and the Power of both procureth Salvation : the one Chastizing as Mistre's , the other being bountiful , as a Benefactor ; for on must pass from Darkness to Life ; and applying his Ear to wisdom , first be a Servant , then a faithful Minister , and so as●…nd into the Number of Sons , and be brought into the elect Adoption of Sons . That the Law works to make them immortal , that chuse to Live temperately and justly . And Again , Evil men do not understand the Law ; but they that se●…k the Lord , do understand in every good thing . And the whole first Book of the Stromat●… is especi●…ly to prove the Antiquity of the one true Religion , or Philosophy , a●… he calls it . Ephes. 2. 8. 1 John 5. 4. Genesis 17. Gal. 5. 1 , 2. Acts 15. 28. Ther 's not laid down in Scripture any general Rule how to answer before Magistrates ; & to act in Times of Sufferings . Thus said a Baptist in print , o●… to that purpose . John 1. 9. Tit. 2. 11 , 12. John 18. 36. Isa. 54. 13. Joel 2. 28 Jer. 31. 33. Mal. 2. 7. Heb. 7. 24 , 25 , 26 , 27. Isa. 9. 6 , 7. Luk. 17. 20 , 21. Heb. 8. 10. Rev. 21. 3. Joel . 2. 28. Tit. 2. 11 , 12. Job . 32. 8. Rom. 1. 19. Gal 5. 16. 1 Joh 1 7. Is●… . 2. 5. Rev. 21. 23. Gal. 6. 15 , 16. Galat. 6. 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this Rule ; as it is translated Phil. 3. 16. which is spoken of the Measure of Attainment : and Grotius saith , in the Manuscript , Rule is not ; so it must be understood , let us walk in the same Attainment ; as also in 2 Cor. 10. 13 , 15. in which three Places that word is only found : See Erasmus , Vatablus , Zegerus , Cameron . Ja●… . Capellus and Grotius , on those places , none whereof can be drawn to the Scriptures . Zegerus interprets this Place of Gal. 6. 16. thus , They that have ●…ollowed this Form of Life , or Rule of the new Creatur●… , having turned away from the invalid Cer●…monies of the Law ; Peace , &c. Drusius explains it from Chap. 5. 6. The new Creation . i. Faith which worketh by Love. Grotius saith , Rule here is a Way made as to a Rule that is plainly Right ; such is that Way of the new Creation , which was foretold Isa. 42. 9. And signifies the State of the new Man , of which Paul Speaks , Col. 3. 10 . Eph. 2. 15. Rom. 6. 4. Bp. Rob. Sand. de Reg●… . ConsProel 4ta . sect . 31. Tertul. de Prescript . Heraetic . pag. 204. Dell. Confut. of Symps. p. 89 , 90. Hieron Tom. 4. 70. Bp. Jewel , p. 532. Po●…ano . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . pag. 150 E●…sinus on 1 〈◊〉 . 1. 19. Ib. 〈◊〉 1 Cor. 2. Luther Tom. 3. fol. 169. Peter . Martyr , Com. loc . p. 1. c. 6. Ibid. p. 2. c. 18. Book of Martyr 3 vol. p. 298. Calvin . Instit lib. 1. cap. 8. Beza on 2 Pet. 1. 19. Tindal . works , Pag. 319. & 80. Jewel against Harding , pag. 532 , 534. D. Ames against Bell●…m . l. 1. c. 5. Thes. 32. G. Cradok divin . drops , pag. 217. C. Goad Refr . drops , pag. 12. Excrcit . 2 , 7 , 9. against Quak. John 7. 17. 1 Cor. 2. 10. 1 P●…t . 1. 11. 1 Cor. 2. 10 , 11. Ephes. ●… . 13. ●… Prelect . 4. §. 21 , 22. Jos●…phus , Wars of the Iews , l. 2. c. 7. Philo , de spec . leg . & decalog . Lae●…t . Hermip . & Orig. con●… . Cels. ●…uint . Curtiu●… , ni vit . Al●…x . H. Grotius on . Mat. 5. 34. Book Martyr . vol. 3. p. 475. Gual●… . Cr●… . Divine Drops , p. 〈◊〉 . Phil. 3. 16 B. Mart. vol. 3. P 577. B. Mart. vol. 3. P. 475. Rev. 21. 3 , 7. Isa. 54. 13. Rom. 11. 28. 29. Rom 〈◊〉 . 14 , 15. 1 Tim. 4. 8. Col 〈◊〉 20 , 21 , 〈◊〉 , 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 38 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Notes for div A54120-e59630 Contradiction . Contradiction . His 1st . Argum. His 2d . Argum , His 3d. Argum. * That , Life which is the Light of men is Divine , Unchangeable , and Infinite , and therefore preferred before ( & is above ) all Sufferings which are temporary & finite . His 4th . Argum. His 5th . Argum. His 6th . Argum. His 7th Argum His 8th . Argum. * Let the Reader observe this by the Way ; thou maystremember , that the Controversie between us , was not , whether the Light as in every man be the Christ or no ? but whether it be a divine Light of Christ ( which I affirm ) or but a Creature ? ( which I deny ) this is enough to my Intention . Joh. 17. 11. and 14. 19. Mar. 16. 1●… . Luke 24. 36 , 4. 8. Joh. 20. 19. 23 , 24. 29 Mat. 28. 9 , 10. * And so he hath dealt with Acts 1. 11. saying , In the same manner , p. 21. instead of In like manner . * H. G. * H. G. Contrad . pag. 94. * This is Mat Caffin's old Story against the Light. Mat. 5. 48. pag. 3. pag. 6. ☞ Wisd. 12. 1 , 2. pag. 18 ☜ * A meer Ta●…tology ; Unless at sometime to say [ that Body of Flesh and Bone ] doth no●… respect its own matter and Substance , but some other . * Thus far in Answer to his Questions Dialogue , pag. 58. Baptist's Excommunication . Excom . Excom . Excom . Excom . Excom . Excom . Excom . Excom . Excom . Excom . Excom . Excom . Excom . Excom . The Marginal Notes are added . (a) Some of your Brethren now scoff . at the Quakers for bearing Witness to the Immortal Seed within (b) For this Doctrine of Perfection , the Baptists , now revile us , who are called Quakers , and furiously oppose it . (c) Which Lightning and Revivings do assert the Inward Light & immediate Teachings of God , now opposed by many of the Baptists . (d) And this Strength and Light must inwardly be received ; but not by them that hate the Light. (e) Which are since greatly encreased among you . (f) Many of you are greatly guilty of that , witness your Railing Pamphlets & Sermons against us . (g) All these are fallen in upon you , because you have refi●…ed the Light within , which would give the Knowledge of the Power and Life . (h) Herein you did own immediate Teaching . (i) That Sense and Travel you have yet kept off , and despise them that experience it . (k) And you are more unsound now then ever , neither can you be sound , until you own the Light. (l) And especially for your Envy and Hypocrisie . (m) But now you despise them that do . (n) Which kind of Pharisaical Babling is still very customary among you . (o) Excepting , that you are outwardly dipt , but as inwardly corrupt as others , and more envious then most Men are . (p) And will yet fall more : (q) Which shews the great hardnes of Heart that is among you . (q) Oh! great Dryness and Withering is come upon you . (r) So you have Cause still to mourn much more . (s) The slavish Fear of many of you hath greatly appeared in suffering Times ; and se 〈◊〉 - In●…erest and Gain hath much stopt you . (t) You cannot get them rooted out without the Power of God , which only is received by believing in his Light within . (v) Your House is not yet purged of them ; however , this was an honest Care to endeavour such a purging , better then to excommunicate Persons for owning the Light within . (w) Which they are very prone to for Advantage . (x) Many more Evils you had n●…od now to spread before them . But S. S. tells us not whether or no he owns those Books , called Apocrypka , or any of them , as any part of his Rule or Canon ; or whether he is not of the same Opinion with his Masters of the Assembly , where in their confession they say , that the Books , commonly call'd Apocrypha , not being of divine Inspiration , are no part of the Canon of the Scriptures , & therefore are of no Authority in the Church of God , nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of , then other human Writings : Thus farr the Assembly ; but this general Debasement of these Books we cannot own . 1 Sam 28. 11. 〈◊〉 This Contra-distinction is his own or Tutor's Inventing . * Mark well . pag. 93. pag. 94. pag. 95. pag. 96. * Though they seem to render Adam worse then the Devil ( who is the Author of sin and Immediate Tempter to it ) & to lay more to Adam's Charge then to the Devil or their own corrupt Hearts and vile Affections which constantly att●…nd them . pag. 98. Luk. 15. 18 , 19. pag. 99. To his 10. & 11th Argum. pag. 89. pag. 130. pag. 100. pag. 100. The Apostles Doctrine & our Opposers Inconsistent . * Many more Comparisons & instances might be produced to 〈◊〉 how inconsisient our Opposers are with the true Apostles and their Doctrine . Object . pag. 101. pag. 102. Notewhat Doctrine is here . Phil. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. Arg. 12. 13. pag. 103. pag. 103. 104. pag. 104. pag. 106. pag. 102. pag. 104. Truth saith not this to Christ , but to the Offenders , Deut. 27. A Testimony against S. S's Doctrine . Isa. 43. 11 , 25. pag. 104. pag. 104. pag. 105. As S. S. hath pag. 105. Also his Brother T. Dans. saith , Christ was not Innocent , but guilty of our Sins , when he suffered , Synops. p. 36 , 40. pag. 105. pag. 105. Heb. 12. 24. Chap. 9. 14 , 15. pag. 106. Christ's tasting Death for every Man could not be the same with the full Punishment that 's due for Sin. pag. 106. pag. 107. pag. 108. Is not this like the Language of Hell ? or theirs saing of Christ , will he kil himself ? And he is guilty of death . This is something like his Brother W. Haworth his Affirming , [ That the Father poured out all his Wrath upon his Son Jesus Christ ] and that this way he Satisfied Vengeance , which he cals his Justice , in his Epistle to their Quaker Converted ; answered by John Crook , and W. Bayly , in their Book Rebellion rebuked , but the Adversaries of Truth shall finde there 's wrath yet for them , if they repent not . pag. 109. pag. 109. pag. 109. pag. 109. pag. 110. pag. 110. Object . 〈◊〉 Hebr. 9. 23. The Presbyterians , or Predestinarians Gospel anti-scriptural . The Conditions and Tendence of the Quakers Gospel Scriptural . Presbyter : Opinion . * [ What soever ] makes no Exception of either good or bad Actions of men ; and this is high Ranterism . * Note , They place it upon particular Persons , rendering God a Respecter of Persons . * Whereas he dyed for all men , and is a Propitiation for the Sins of the whole World. These were of cur Opposers . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is Order , or Rank , 1 Cor. 15. 23. Edom relates to the Earthly Birth . Gen. 35. 10. Confession of Faith. The Hardness and Cruelty of Pharaoh , 〈◊〉 app●…ared against the Hebrews witness the Murtherous Intentio●… of that King , who gave Command to kill th●… Male-children , Exod . 1. 16. & their great Affliction & Bondage , v. 11 , 14. until the Lord heard their Cry , a●…ter much Forbcarance . pag. 115. * Which is our Sense of the Matter in both . * Note the Consequences of the Predestina●…ian Opinion against universa●… Grace . Pag. 116. 1 Sam. 11. 5 , 15. & 12. 9. Psal. 89 These many do slight and refuse , and both resist , grieve & quench the Spirit in its low and tender Appearance to their own Destruction and Misery , when the Love and long Suffering of God is turned into Wrath and Indignation against them . * How long before their Conformity to Christ were they appointed ? Was it from all Eternity , or rather in their Age and Time ? Had not this and all other meer Acts and Works of God a beginning in their time and season ( considered as meer Acts ) Could this of his appointment then be from eternity and so far a Preappointment meerly respecting particular Persons , and with exclusion of all besides from any saving Grace ? This is still harsh , and partial , and unequal , contrary to God's Wayes ; although as the general Fore-appointment and Ordination of God concerning the true Believers and obedient , is , that they shall be saved : So this Predestina ion , or Fore-appointment includes or reaches all the many holy Brethren in whom Christ is formed . Vid. Mass in Lat. & Eng. by Ja. Mountain , pag. 121 , 122 , 123. pag. 69. Pag. 69. Pag. 70. Pag. 70. Indef . Seek . pag. 71. The Light within the Rule . Pag. 74. Vide Gill's Sermen on Eccl. 7. 19 , 20. in his Essay . * Dialoge , 1 Cor. 15. 22 , 23. 2 Cor. 5. 1. 8. Phil. 1. 21. Acts 17. 30 , 31. Mat. 10. 15. & 11. 22 , 24. & 12. 36. Job . 21. 30. 2 Pet. 2. 9. & 3. 7. Psal. 102. 25. Hebr. 1. 10 , 11 , 21. See also 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . Chap. 19. 〈◊〉 * He takes It for Idem , the Self same Body ; but where hath he this ●…ither from the Greek or Latine on the place cited ? Isa. 3. 9. Luk. 20. 35. * T. D. 〈◊〉 Note . Pag. 16. * Note , Then not the same gross Bodies ; but as a pure Extract . * Which cannot be This 〈◊〉 Flesh. * Not ? Why are we not then to have as spiritual a Sense of the Resurrection ? * Nay , they shall have far better . * A Glory 〈◊〉 that of 〈◊〉 Earthly Bodies . * Not only , as spiritually qualified ; but as a spiritual Body . * Which excel all Terrestrial Bodies . * Concerning the Judgment of the Wiked . * Which is not Carnal ; but Spiritual . * And who must make so vile and like Devils ? * And who must drag the Devils to Judgment then , if they must be so officious for Justice ? * What sad Work 's here ? * He thinks of a Good Place for himself however . * Rather an empty talk to sell at a dear ra●… . * Presbyters are not wont to be so free . * Is it so ? then God did not decree it as his own meer Wist & Pleasure . 〈◊〉 personal Election and Reprobation . * Was he so ? Good Doctrine : But then he did not decree their Damnation from eternity . * True ; then the true light was freely given to them , to shew them the Way out of evil . * That was their Fault still , and not Gods Decre●… . * What will become of the Covetous Priests and Presbyters then ? * And so did many of the Presbyters when parish Priests . * An Uncharitable Sentence . * The guilty Conscience and d●…filed Mind is attended with such Imaginations of Torments , which though they are not real , but Imaginary , yet they produce a real Torment and Horror to some ; and in these things appears an Image of that future Darkness that the Wicked will have their due Rewards in : But these frightfull Stories of T. Vincent's do not fright People out of their Sins , nor reach their Cons●… for that End. They must be directed to the LIGHT which discovers Sin , and disturbeth Men in their wicked Courses ( as he cor●…sesseth ) To this they must come , and bring their Deeds , whoever escape Damnation , or attain to the blessed Resurrection and future Glory . From a true Sence and Knowledge of the Terrors of the Lord , men may be perswaded from Evil to Good ; and their Hearts become broken with a sence of his Goodness therein , when meer Dreams and Fancies will not fright them to Heaven ; nor truly reduce them from any Sin or Evil. * Note . 2 Cor. 5.